1943-07-02

OFFICIAL REPORT


[Stage Direction]
House of Commons Bebates
[Stage Direction]
Friday, July 2, 1943


Mr. LIGUORI LACOMBE (Laval-Two Mountains):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a questioa of privilege. Last Wednesday I withdrew unconditionally a statement which I had made in French in this house on June 25. Now, using my privilege as a member of parliament, I should like to ask the right hon. the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to be just and fair to me. Speaking in this house on June 28 the Prime Minister quoted from the English debates of June 25 last. This citation was as follows:
We have here in the cabinet three new millionaires who have made their money since the war's outbreak. We shall denounce them at the proper time and place. Fortunes are being built up.
That citation is reported at page 4072 of the English Debates of June 28, 1943. This is an absolutely false translation of a part of my speech delivered in French on June 25. Consequently I should like to ask the right hon. the Prime Minister to withdraw this citation or to give instructions to the translator to correct this translation.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I am sure the house would wish me to be absolutely fair with the hon. gentleman, and no one is more anxious to be so than myself. I would remind him that the citation which I used on Wednesday was the citation as it appears in Hansard in French and I used only that citation and had reference to no other in the remarks I made. It was pointed out at the time that the French translation, in the mind of the hon. member who has just spoken, and I think I may say in the minds also of many other hon. members, was not a correct translation. But that was in no sense my fault or the fault of the government; it is a matter which concerns the translation staff of the house. I would say for that reason
I think my hon. friend, in desiring to have any correction made, so far as Hansard is concerned, should address the Speaker of the house rather than myself. He will find His Honour the Speaker quite ready, I am sure, to see that an accurate translation is given. If he adopts that procedure he will find, I am sure, on the part of all there will be every disposition to see that a proper translation is substituted for the one that appears in Hansard.


Liguori Lacombe: I ask Your Honour to give instructions to the translators to correct this translation.	[DOT]


Mr. SPEAKER:: The hon. member has made the request of the Chair that .there should be a proper translation of the words that were used in the motion which the right hon. the Prime Minister brought before the house,. I would say to the hon. gentleman that I checked the translation, and I am satisfied that the translation in English of the hon. gentleman's speeech was not a correct translation of the French text. With what the hon. gentleman has said, supplemented by the Prime Minister, and also what I now say, I think there has been sufficient reference to justify the hon. gentleman on the question of privilege, and to make clear that the English text was not a proper translation of the French text.



MR. LACOMBE-REFERENCE TO EDITORIAL IN MONTREAL GAZETTE OF JULY 1

Liguori Lacombe: On a question of privilege, the Montreal Gazette, in the edition of July 1, 1943, has an editorial under the title, "Lacombe Eats His Words". The first sentence of the editorial reads:
Liguori Lacombe has eaten his words to the last shameful morsel. . . .
The last sentence of the editorial reads:
The important thing was that an irresponsible slander should be branded as such.
Using my privilege as a member of the House of Commons I ask that this statement be withdrawn, and I give the Montreal Gazette

Privilege-Mr. Graydon

until Wednesday next at three o'clock to withdraw it; otherwise I shall ask the Chair to have the reporter summoned before the bar of the House of Commons.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member has made a request of me that I should do something in connection with the Montreal Gazette. I have no power or control over the Montreal Gazette or any comments it may make.



MR. GRAYDON-REFERENCE TO EDITORIAL IN THE ' TORONTO &quot;GLOBE AND MAH,&quot;

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: I rise to a question of privilege based upon an editorial appearing in to-day's issue of the Toronto Globe and Mail, which reflects upon His Majesty's Loyal Opposition and myself as leader. The editorial, among other things, says that:
Last week Doctor W. J. Edmonston Scott, M.A., who served at Ottawa as a censor in languages of central and western Europe from 1939 to 1943, supplied in a letter published in this newspaper definite confirmation of the validity of its charges about the government's scandalously inquisitorial abuse of the powers of censorship conferred upon it by the War Measures Act. Doctor Scott did not merely give general support to our allegations, but he rovided very damning evidence to justify them y quoting a special memorandum, dated May 1, 1942, which was issued to examiners, and ran as follows:
"All letters observed in the mails containing information regarding women's political activities in all parts of the world and women's activities in connection with post-war reconstruction should be specially submitted to this office and the file reference C.11292-38 quoted."
No denial has been made of this allegation of Doctor Scott, and presumably no denial is possible. It is so disturbing that even a staunch supporter of the government like the Winnipeg Free Press has been moved to describe it as a gross abuse of the powers of censorship, upon which the fullest possible light should be directed, and to demand that the Minister of National War Services, who is responsible for the censorship, should be cross-examined in great detail about the scope of its operations.
If a parliamentary opposition has one duty more compelling than another, it is to act as a vigilant watchdog against all unwarranted governmental assaults upon fundamental principles of liberty. But, so far, from the opposition benches not even a whisper of protest has been heard against this proved assault. All the opposition groups have a measure of culpability in the matter, as any of their members could have raised the issue. But a special degree of blame for a deplorable laxity must attach to Mr. Graydon, because the leader of the official opposition has by tradition a special responsibility for bringing a government to book for such arrogant abuse of its powers as has been revealed, especially when they strike at the roots of personal liberties. He should have lost no time in proceeding to cross-examine the Minister of National War Services about this matter.

I should like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that the editorial in question is evidently based upon a misunderstanding of the position of the opposition and myself in this matter, and I desire to deny the charge that we have been in any way remiss in our duties .with respect to the issue in question.
On Wednesday last, after consultation with me, the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) took the necessary steps to ask for the production of a copy of all censorship orders, regulations or instructions issued under government authority since the outbreak of war. This appears in Votes and Proceedings of Thursday, July 1. The hon. member's motion was prompted largely by our desire to have a proper basis for examination of the ministry with respect to the allegations raised by Doctor Scott and certain newspapers, particularly the Winnipeg Free Press and the Toronto (Globe and Mail. We felt that a fuller and more complete examination of censorship matters generally and this case in particular could best be accomplished when the papers asked for had been tabled and a more appropriate opportunity presented itself for careful and detailed examination of the ministry. I rise therefore on this question of privilege to put the record straight so far as our position as an opposition is concerned.



PRIVATE BILLS COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
First and second reports of standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.-Mr. Fontaine.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. W. G. GIBSON (Minister of National Revenue) moved for leave to introduce bill No. 119, respecting a certain tax convention and protocol between Canada and the United States of America, signed at Washington in the United States of America, on the fourth day of March, 1942.
He said: The Canada-United States of America tax convention was considered by this house on June 8, 1942, and a resolution was adopted at that time approving the convention and protocol. The Department of Justice has recently given the opinion that, in order to give legal effect to the convention, it is necessary that it be confirmed by statute, and for that reason this bill is being introduced.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

Dominion Day


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I feel that hon. members of the house will be pleased to know that yesterday, Dominion day, I received on behalf of their governments, either by letter or by personal call, greetings to Canada, good wishes and many expressions of thanks from members of the foreign diplomatic service resident in Ottawa at this time. There were also a number of telegrams received from different countries, some of which I have felt would be of special interest to the house, and which the house might wish to have as a matter of record on Hansard. It will not take more than a minute or two for me to refer to them; they illustrate the appreciation felt by other countries of Canada's present position and of the assistance received from Canada during the period of the war.
One message directed to His Excellency the Governor General was from King Peter of Yugoslavia, who it will be remembered visited Ottawa not so very long ago. The message was as follows:
On the occasion of the national day of Canada I offer Your Excellency my warmest greetings and best wishes for the welfare and prosperity of the dominion and of the gallant Canadian people.
From the Yugoslav Minister for Foreign Affairs in London, a message was addressed to myself in the following words:
I avail myself of the Canadian Dominion Day to convey to you my warmest greetings and heartfelt good wishes for the happiness and prosperity of your great nation.
A message addressed to myself as Prime Minister came from General Sikorski, Prime Minister of Poland, who is at the present time in Cairo. General Sikorski, it will be recalled, has visited Canada on two or three occasions in the course of the war:
On the occasion of your national holiday I send you and the gallant Canadian nation my heartiest congratulations, best wishes, all success. May I assure you the Polish nation and myself greatly admire Canada's magnificent contribution to the allies' cause on the battlefields of this war. By the same opportunity please accept my personal best greetings.
A communication came also from the Polish government in London, through the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. Stanislaw Mikolajezyk, which reads:
On the occasion of Canada's day please accept, Mr. Prime Minister, the cordial greetings and heartfelt wishes of the government and people of Poland. We shall always remember with
72537-271i
gratitude the support which your great country is so generously giving us in the hour of need. I am sure that the bonds of friendship forged during the years of our common struggle will continue after victory is achieved and contribute to the building up of a new international community.
His Excellency the President of China, Lin Sen, sent the following message to His Excellency the Governor General:
On the occasion of Dominion day, I have great pleasure in extending to you on behalf of the national government and people of China my hearty felicitations and best wishes for your personal welfare and the prosperity of Canada.
The following message was also received from Chungking, addressed to myself as Prime Minister, from Premier and Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek:
On the occasion of your Dominion day I have great pleasure to extend to you my hearty felicitations. I believe that our traditional friendship which has been enhanced by comradeship in arms not only strengthens our united war effort to crush our common enemy but will stand us in good stead in our post-war cooperation to establish an enduring peace. May. I also take this opportunity to express to you my personal thanks for the kind hospitality which your government and the Canadian people extended to my wife during her recent stay in your country and my best wishes for your health and the happiness of the Canadian people.
There were three or four important messages from south American countries. From the Argentine republic a communication from the Hon. Segundo R. Stomi, Minister of Foreign Affairs, as follows:
It is with special pleasure that I address myself to you, the Prime Minister, to reaffirm, on the occasion of the commemoration of Dominion day the deep friendship of the government and people of my country for the government and people of Canada. The Argentine republic, linked to Canada by reason of our dwelling in the same hemisphere and by common ideals of progress, wishes to expand and consolidate the friendly relations which unite both countries.
The following message was received from the President of the Republic of Brazil, His Excellency Doctor Getrilo Vargas. It was communicated through the Minister, Doctor de Millo Franco:
The President of the republic of the United States of Brazil has instructed me by telegram to convey to you and to the Canadian people his heartiest congratulations and those of the Brazilian people on the occasion of the celebration of Dominion day. The Minister for Foreign Affairs of Brazil, Doctor Oswaldo Aranha, also instructed me to congratulte you on his behalf, which I also do in my own name.
It is with great pleasure that I give course to said instructions. The commemoration of Dominion day cannot be considered by the nations of the Americas only as the celebration of a great Canadian date, but as that of a great American date, as it represents the birth of one more sister nation.
Canadian Navy

In only seventy-six years Canada has raised herself to the outstanding position she occupies to-day in the concert of nations; it is a miracle accomplished by her great people and by her leaders, and I can assure you that we Brazilians look to her with the proud admiration that a member of a same family has for the successes of another member.
The President of Brazil also sent the following message to His Excellency the Governor General:
On the seventy-sixth anniversary of the dominion I beg Your Excellency to accept my warmest wishes for the ever-increasing pros-.perity of Canada and for the personal welfare of Your Excellency.
A message also came from the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Chile, Mr. Joaquin Fernandez, as follows;
In the name of the government of Chile it affords me pleasure to greet you and the Canadian people on the occasion of the anniversary of confederation and to express our best wishes for the happiness of your government and yourself.
A message as follows was received also from the Vice-President of the Republic of Uruguay, His Excellency Alberto Guani, who recently visited Canada:
I congratulate you very cordially seeing in your people and in yourself staunch and distinguished supporters of right and liberty in this hour of spiritual trial for all humanity. I renew my gratitude for the amicable welcome extended recently in your admirable country.
As I have already said, other countries having legations in Ottawa sent messages of friendliest greetings either conveyed by letter or expressed in person by their ministers.



CANADIAN NAVY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): Last week the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) asked a question regarding the number of high-ranking officers in the Canadian navy, and if I am in order I should like to reply now. I am sorry that last week I gave the figure of seven as the number of those in the Canadian navy holding the rank of commodore or higher. The correct number is eight, but I was speaking from memory at the time and I had forgotten that quite recently another commodore was appointed. The total number, then, in the Canadian navy holding the rank of commodore and higher is eight, ahd a comparison with other navies, for which the hon. member asked as well, would run approximately as follows. The figures are not

perhaps entirely exact, because it is difficult to ascertain the precise strength of other navies, but I think they are substantially correct.
In the United Kingdom there is one officer of the rank of commodore and above for every 3,000 men. In Australia there is one officer of that rank for every 5,200 men. In the United States there is one officer of that rank for every 5,500 men, and in Canada one officer of that rank for every 7,500 men. It will be seen, therefore, that the reports which the hon. gentleman received to the effect that we had a great many high-ranking officers in the Canadian navy, as compared to other navies, are not correct, but that, on the contrary, we have many less of such high-ranking officers, proportionately, than any of the other navies to which I have referred.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. C. BLACK (Cumberland):: I should like to ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply if he has been able to reconsider the cancellation of the contract for building two tugs, which was given some time ago to Ferguson Brothers in Pictou. It has been represented to me that the minister does not understand the situation in that yard. This company took on the contract in good faith; about thirty per cent of the preliminary work has been done; it has been financed entirely by the company; this concern has about a thousand men in its different undertakings, and has not encroached in the slightest degree on the operations of the other shipbuilding yards in Pictou. They feel that if they were allowed to complete their contract, as they are prepared to do, it would form the basis of a post-war industry, of which we have very few in Nova Scotia. I should like to ask the minister if he has been able to reconsider, and reconsider favourably, representations made to him by the company and by the people of Pictou and, I believe, by the government of Nova Scotia.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: The Ferguson yard at Pictou
has been enlarged to provide facilities for the repair of naval and merchant vessels. A number of other yards have also been expanded for that purpose. The question arises as to whether the facilities can be utilized for other purposes, when there is an urgent need for repair facilities. At the

Munitions and Supply-Tugs
moment the full facilities of the Ferguson yard are required and are being used for the repair of ships.
I	may say that the understanding I have from my officers 'with respect to the tug situation is that it was felt that a steel company at Trenton had facilities for building tugs. May I add that tugs of the size we are discussing do not require to be built in a modern shipyard. They usually are built at a number of places along the great lakes and in the St. Lawrence, that are not by any stretch of the imagination shipyards. They are very simple to build, and they cost about $400,000 each.
Arrangements were made to build two of these tugs at Trenton. A dispute about wages arose, as to whether the tugs should be built on shipyard wages or steel plant wages, and the Trenton plant decided it did not want the tugs built there. Without the knowledge Of the department the tugs were moved into the shipyard that had been reserved for repair purposes, or enlarged for repair purposes, at Pictou. The net result of that would be that facilities reserved for repair purposes could be used to build tugs, or for work other than repairs. The whole principle was being established that yards which had been designated to repair ships had the privilege of taking any contracts they liked, and doing it in repair yards. The result was that the contract for two tugs was cancelled, by arrangement with the Ferguson company. Arrangements were made in my office some six weeks ago-


Percy Chapman Black: Well, Mr. Speaker-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just a moment; do I have
to be interrupted?


Gordon Graydon: Well, Mr. Speaker, I
think the minister might be just a little bit more lenient with the hon. member. He has always been very courteous. I think on reflection the minister would not want to cut him so short.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member must know what I am trying to do-explain something of which I had no notice. I am trying to think of my answer as I go along.


Gordon Graydon: He was only trying to
help the minister.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, I hope so. In any
event, arrangements were made in my office some six weeks ago that this contract would be cancelled. I think the total expenditure at that time was less than $10,000. So far
as the contract is concerned, the representative of the Ferguson company-and I discussed the situation with one of the brothers -seemed to be satisfied with the arrangement that was made at that time.
An attempt is being made to make this incident a political issue. Just to show the proportions of the matter, we are discussing two tugs costing $400,000 each, in a town where the government has a shipbuilding yard, as well as a ship repair yard, and is contemplating in the current year an expenditure between the two yards of about $15,000,-
000.	I would ask hon. members who have interested themselves in this situation to have a sense of proportion.


Percy Chapman Black: I understood
the minister to say that Ferguson Brothers, with whom this contract was placed, approved the cancellation. The representations to me are contrary to that. Secondly, I disagree with the minister when he says that this is in any way political. The representations made by the company, the town and the government of Nova Scota are unanimous in the request that the contract be continued, and that permission be given to build these tugs in Pictou.


ALLEGED DISCRIMINATION IN PLACEMENT OP CARS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'AppeUe):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce., more or less by way of making a request. In doing so I am following up a question I asked on Wednesday last, as reported at page 4199 of Hansard. At that time I asked the minister if he had received any complaints from western Canada with respect to the allotment of cars. I shall not read the whole of what took place at that time, other than to say that the minister replied that he had not heard of any charges of discrimination. He said:
I have had requests from many sources that a different basis of allocating the cars be instituted.
Daily I am receiving complaints, and I received some to-day, protesting against the system being used, one known as the thirty-car cycle. These complaints say that it is not working out satisfactorily. There is an opportunity provided by this system of the grain firms taking advantage of the farmer by undergrading grain. I have reason to believe that the minister has had several requests for changing the system, and I must
Supply-Agriculture

ask if he will consider the requests he has received to the effect that the system be changed over for the balance of the crop season, and for 1942 crop delivery, Would he change the arrangement so as to (meet the suggestions which are being forwarded to him in large numbers?


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, it is my usual custom to give serious, thoughtful and earnest consideration to any reasonable representations made to the Department of Trade and Commerce. I have given serious thought to the letters which have come in, and in each case I have replied, setting out the attitude of the Department of Trade and Commerce at the present time. I do not think there is anything further I can add to that at the moment.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OP AGRICULTURE Experimental farm service.
12. Experimental farms administration, $59,489.


Mr. QUELCH:: Would the Minister of Agriculture throw a little light on this question of alcohol from wheat? A statement was made in the house by the Minister of Munitions and Supply that in the manufacture of alcohol from wheat returns to farmers would be around only 25 to 35 cents a bushel. On the other hand, Doctor Archibald, speaking to the committee on agriculture yesterday, said that if alcohol were made from wheat, given a wheat yield of twenty bushels to the acre, the farmer would get a return of $17 an acre, which works out to 85 cents a bushel. That is different from the figure given by the Minister of Munitions and Supply; I suggest there must be some explanation, fo the difference between 25 or 30 cents on the one hand and 85' cents on the other. Will the minister give the committee some information on this point?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Of course one would require to have the figures used by both the parties referred to, and also the basis for those figures, before he could explain the difference between them. The difference which might be there is probably based upon the facts that are usually run into when you are discussing costs of productions or returns per acre. The statement made to the committee ,by Doctor Archibald, which I happen to have in my hand, contains the estimated value of various crops as sources of alcohol. Wheat is taken at twenty bushels to the acre, and the production of alcohol is stated to be

4-24 gallons per hundred pounds. Taking that as a basis it goes on to say that the total value of the crop per acre is $17.51. I am not certain what figures were used by those who worked out the cost for the Minister of Munitions and Supply, but in all probability the average production and the average cost were taken into consideration. The only statement with regard to the matter that I would care to make at the present time is that all the information I have seen, all the figures that have been compiled, indicate that wheat would have to be produced at a much lower cost than that at which I think any farmer in western Canada would be prepared to produce it, in order to.permit the production of alcohol at a cost comparable with the cost of production from other sources.


Mr. KNOWLES:: I should like to direct the attention of the minister to an article appearing in Business Week of June 12, 1943. I quote from pages 72 and 75 as follows:
The chemurgist's diream of grain alcohol as the answer to farm surpluses may yet come true -and with it a lengthening horizon of post-war possibilities for the rubber, oil, and chemical industries-through a process of protein extraction which promises to make alcohol a cheap by-product.
And again:
The process was discovered less than four months ago by Irvin W. Tucker, a young chemist in the department of agriculture working under direction of Doctor A. K. Balls, chief of the department's enzyme research laboratory. Park and Tilfordi developed it commercially.
The article goes into>
further details and concludes as follows:
Heretofore, chemurgists who grappled with the question of farm surpluses habitually stubbed their toes on two hard problems: there was no market for the tremendous volume of alcohol that could be produced from farm products, and the cost of farm alcohol was prohibitively high. The war has solved the first problem. . . . Balls and Tucker appear to have solved the second.
This article would seem to suggest that a process has been discovered which considerably reduces the cost of making alcohol from grain, a matter which is of prime importance to Canada. I should like to know whether there is contact between the Department of Agriculture and research such as is here indicated.
I should also like to draw the attention of the minister to an article which appeared in the June, 1943, issue of the Reader's Digest. This is a condensation from the Christian Science Monitor. I quote from pages 81, 82 and S3 as follows:
At Institute, West Virginia, a superb plant 77 acres in area is turning out rubber at the rate of 90,000 long tons a year. That is almost

Supply-Agriculture
one-sixth as much as we used to need in normal times-and as much as 100,000 Malay natives gather from 18,000,000 rubber trees.
The writer of this article would seem to hold no brief for grain or petroleum; but note what he says:
The process used at Institute happens to make its butadiene out of alcohol. The alcohol now comes from corn.
I am emphasizing two points. First, there does seem to be a considerable volume of synthetic rubber being manufactured in the United States from alcohol produced from grain. Second, there would appear to have been recent discoveries which reduce the cost of this process.


Mr. ROSS (Calgary East):: Did Doctor Archibald give the figures at which alcohol would have to be sold in order to bring that return?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have in my hand the document which was before the committee this morning when Doctor Archibald was giving his evidence. This is a survey of Canadian research on the utilization of farm products by the chemurgie committee of the Canadian chamber of commerce. It will be recalled by those who were present at the committee this morning that Doctor Archibald referred to certain reports that had been made, I think by Doctor Speakman. This document is the last word on the matter in so far as Canada is concerned. Figures are given based on cost according to United States practice and according to European practice. According to United States practice, with wheat at 60 cents the cost would be 53-4 cents for the alcohol at the plant. According to the European process, with wheat at 60 cents the cost of alcohol would be 39-6 cents at the plant. As I indicated at the beginning, after examining the figures which had been secured in the United States up to that time, as well as the experiences on the European continent, it appeared that even with wheat at 60 cents, the cost of alcohol would be 53-4 cents under the American practice and 39-6 cents under the European.


Victor Quelch: What is the price of alcohol
to-day?


James Garfield Gardiner: The price was given by the Minister of Munitions and Supply as around 27 or 28 cents.	.


George Henry Ross: I believe the normal price before the war was 25 to 27 cents.


James Garfield Gardiner: I was in Chicago last week within a few miles of the plant that has been spoken of so much by so many hon.
members. I did not have time to visit it, but Mr. Shaw, the director of marketing, was with me and I asked him to visit the plant and make a full report on what is being done. He went down there last Friday and has not yet returned. The wheat pool in Saskatchewan appointed a committee which reviewed this question thoroughly, and while I do not know that they have so far.made any official report I think I am safe in saying that they questioned the advisability of attempting at this time to produce alcohol from wheat or of spending sufficient money to produce it on the information that is now available to us. That is also the opinion which we hold as a department. This, of course, is entirely apart from the question raised by members here the other day- whether we should set aside a certain sum of money to investigate the whole matter, and further whether we could not make something out of farm products that would be to the advantage of the farmer and the country. With the principle underlying that I am in entire agreement, as I think are the members of the government also.
There is, of course, the question which always arises in matters of this kind, whether we should use the present set-up under the national research council or some other set-up more closely associated with the Department of Agriculture, and further whether we should carry on experiments at the centre at Ottawa or in different parts of the country where the agricultural products are grown. All that was covered the other day, and the suggestion made on the latter point was that we should have research and experimental laboratories set up in four sections of Canada-at the coast, on the prairies, in central Canada, and in the maritimes, in regard to the products of those particular areas. That was the question that was being discussed here the other day. There was no discussion of any one particular thing, but the suggestion that many things should be inquired into.


Mr. WRIGHT:: I think the minister was quoting from a report made in 1941, but since then there have been tremendous developments in the production of alcohol from wheat. I had the pleasure of going through the research laboratories in Ottawa just before Easter and of seeing some of the advances that have been made in that field. I have also read the report published by Mr. Baruch, of the United States, to the effect that if the United States went into the production of rubber they would use at least 60 per cent grain alcohol and 40 per cent alcohol from petroleum products. I certainly think this
Supply-A gricul ture

matter should not be dropped, but that further investigation should be made, because new developments are taking place all the time with which we should keep in touch. There is something to be said for the production of butadiene rubber from grain alcohol, especially when we take into consideration the cost of the plant itself. As I understand it, a plant for the production of rubber from- grain alcohol can be built considerably cheaper than one using the petroleum process. From conversations I had with officers of the national research laboratories I understand they are constructing a pilot plant which will use grain alcohol. I hope the matter will not be dropped.


Ernest Edward Perley: I suggest to hon. members who are not members of the agriculture committee that they study the reports of proceedings of that committee, particularly for the last five sittings, and the last day or two especially, when we had Dr. Archibald before us with reference to the experimental work now being carried on. They will find in those reports much useful information. It is impossible of course for members of the house to keep track of everything that goes on in the committee, but I would especially commend the reports of the agriculture committee for the last few days.
With regard to this particular item, I think a useful purpose is being served by this expenditure, and I hope that the minister will have investigations made into the production of alcohol from wheat, for instance, and that much of the investigational and research work be carried on in the west. The farm at Indian Head is suitable for very much of this work and a lot of it could be done there. If I had anything to complain of it would be that this vote is not sufficient. In the last two or three years especially it has been found necessary for us to develop all our resources of every kind, agriculture and otherwise, and we cannot emphasize too strongly the importance of the research work being done by the experimental farms. I would be in favour of increasing this vote.


Mr. SENN:: I should like to supplement what the hon. member for Qu'Appelle has said about the excellent information we received in the agriculture committee from Doctor Archibald. Undoubtedly they are doing work, particularly in the research field, and the kind of research that is being done is very much worth while. It concerns itself largely with production and processing, however, and it seems to me that there is another kind of research which might be undertaken, and that is the finding of new uses and new methods of processing our farm

products, particularly the by-products of the farm. That might come more properly under industrial research, but it seems to me it is one of the live questions to-day in Canada. Quite a few farm products are being utilized in different directions, mostly for food, but for other purposes as well, and I think still other uses could be found, particularly for the byproducts of the farm. There is a good deal of waste in farm by-products at the present time. New uses might be .found for a good deal of straw, corn stalks, and a number of other things which would be of advantage to us industrially as well as supplementing the income of the farm. I do not suppose the Department of Agriculture or the experimental farms can very well deal with matters of that kind, but we have in Canada what is known as the national chemurgio committee, which is doing valuable work and is being fostered and assisted by chambers of commerce and similar bodies. I think the time has come from the point of view of agriculture when government assistance should be given to that committee to assist it in trying to find new uses for the by-products of the farm. I leave the suggestion with the minister, and I am sure that if he studies it carefully he will agree that it would be very much worth while.
>
Mr. FAIR: May I ask the minister whether the figures supplied by the Department of Munitions and Supply as to the cost of producing alcohol from petroleum products were based on experiments made in the United States or in Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am afraid the hon. member will have to ask the minister himself when he comes back before the committee. I have no information as to what those figures are based on.


Mr. HATFIELD:: I would like to see research work carried on in regard to agricultural products by the experimental farms, entirely outside of the national research council. I believe they are the ones to carry on this work. We are bringing into this country millions of dollars' worth of ethyl lead to bring up the octane rating of our gasoline, while as a matter of fact, alcohol made from wheat would answer the same purpose. I think there should be a pilot plant built in western Canada or at the central experimental farm to carry on experiments in the use of western low grade wheat and low grades of starch for power alcohol.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: I
understand that a ten per cent mixture of alcohol will jump the octane rating of gasoline nine per cent.

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Mark Cecil Senn: Under this vote we have the animal husbandry division of the experimental farm. If we read the last report of the Minister of Agriculture we find that in the matter of dairy cattle, sheep, swine and so on, there has been a certain amount of curtailment of operations owing to the fact that the country is at war and certain other things are being done to a greater extent. This report, however, only goes up to March, 1942, and has to do really with the operations in 1941. I would ask the minister to give us a brief outline of what is being done in animal husbandry. Are the experiments previously conducted still being carried on, or have they been reduced?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that while there has been a reduction in our expenditures generally in the Department of Agriculture since the war began, our expenditures on ordinary activities are not as high as they were when the war began but in so far as some of the live stock activities are concerned we are spending even more than we were at the beginning of the war; naturally we want more hogs, eggs, poultry, beef cattle, and so on, more dairy products and other things, and therefore there has been considerable activity along those lines. We are building up at the moment rather than cutting down on those particular activities.


Stanley Howard Knowles: With regard to synthetic rubber, did the Polymer corporation, which investigated methods of producing such rubber, before it set up the plant at Sarnia, consult with the Department of Agriculture or with any of the science officials in that department?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not think there was any direct consultation, but of course all those who are dealing with matters of this kind have access to this publication, and there are representatives on the committee. Doctor Archibald, who is here with us to-day is a member of that committee and is director of experimental farms in Canada. This document is of course available and I have no doubt that anyone reading it to make a decision of that kind would have had access to all such information.


Stanley Howard Knowles: That is the 1941 document?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, and 1941 would be about the time this matter was under serious consideration by those who were getting ready to do something about a plant in 1942. It does take considerable time to get into production after you start and to establish a plant of that kind. What the minister said when discussing the matter was that he hoped to get
into production shortly, so that the subject has been under consideration by these people for some considerable time, and I have no doubt they took into account all the facts connected with it.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Is it not a fact that practically all the chemists and engineers at the Sarnia plant come from the Standard Oil or the Imperial Oil company and are not interested in making rubber from agricultural products?


James Garfield Gardiner: All I would say in that regard is that at the present time everyone realizes that we have to make rubber no matter what it costs; we are in the midst of a war. Everyone knows that the reason why Germany made synthetic rubber before the war started was that she could not find rubber towards the end of the last war, and it made no difference what the cost might be to her to produce it at home. She did produce it in her own country. We find ourselves in the middle of this war without available supplies of rubber, and we have to produce rubber in Canada and the United States no matter what it costs. I hope that the members of this committee, who when addressing themselves to other questions think largely in terms of the Atlantic charter, are not thinking that when the war is over we shall produce any commodity that we can possibly produce irrespective of the cost. I am not one who advocates that policy. I do not think the government advocates it, and I doubt very much if the members of this house advocate it, that after the war we should produce rubber from wheat just because we can produce it, no matter what it may cost. We might be further ahead to trade wheat for rubber where the latter can be produced at a -much lower cost than it could be produced here. I would not say that with the information before us we would get very far along that line in discussions at the present time, basing our discussions upon what was done in Germany before the war or what is being done -in Canada or the United States since the war started. We must look forward to the time when we shall be at peace and realize that we shall be able to get some of these commodities elsewhere, particularly if we win the war. Under those circumstances we may do things in a way different from the method we are following now.	.


Mr. SLAGHT:: Apropos of the questions which my hon. friend has asked, and in the absence of the minister of munitions, I may say that before Canada made her decision as to the Sarnia plant, I personally took an

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interest in the matter and had' an interview with him, and I know that he engaged Doctor Speakman, who is head of the provincial national research bureau in Toronto, a very able chemical man-


James Garfield Gardiner: He made this report.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: -and I had conferences with him before the Sarnia plant was actually set up. He went to Washington and conferred at some length with the authorities there on the subject of alcohol and the use of wheat as against the use of petroleum. There was a considerable difference of opinion among the experts in the United States, a good deal of controversy for some time, but I can assure hon. members that Canada investigated the subject thoroughly before the Sarnia plant was decided upon.


Percy Ellis Wright: I quite agree with the hon. member that the government did make a thorough investigation before establishing the plant, but there have been developments since that time. What most members here desire to see is some further investigation so that progress may be made in the development of alcohol from agricultural products, to show whether more can be done in production from that source than from petroleum. We should like to see the government continue experiments to ascertain whether alcohol cannot be made from agricultural products to better advantage than in 1941. I feel sure it can. All the experiments carried on at the present time tend to show that, and it is the desire of most members to have the government carry on these experiments, even though they have committed themselves to the present programme. They have no alternative to that programme since they committed themselves to it, but that is no reason for dropping present experiments.


James Garfield Gardiner: There is no intention of dropping any present experiment.


Mr. EDWARDS:: It is with some hesitation that I rise to speak on this matter, because I appreciate that in time of war it is not the popular thing to try to divert public thinking from the immediate necessities of war and the problems which they have created. But, having listened in at some of the conferences of the Empire Parliamentary Association and tried to look into the future, it seems to me that, in view of the adjustments which are being made by other countries, allied and anti-ally, western Canadian agriculture is likely to be faced with a serious problem so far as markets are concerned for what are now the natural products of the prairies.
IMr. Slaght.j
It is not unknown that since the war began the British isles have increased their agricultural production from thirty-five per cent of their national needs to, now, seventy per cent of their national needs. What effect is that going to have on the potential post-war market for the great bulk of, shall we say, western Canada's agricultural production? Is it not a moot question whether Canada can hold the favourable position she now has so far as the British market is concerned? And if peradven-ture the European countries which during the war have increased1 their agricultural production should be inclined to continue to do so, what then? They have done this through force of necessity, taking advantage of scientific research and mass production methods; and I am greatly exercised and concerned as to what we in Canada-I am not selfish in this respect, because what applies to western Canada applies also to eastern Canada-are to do with our surplus agricultural products if we continue to produce wheat and as we have done during the war. It may be that we shall have to change, if not our methods, the products of our farms in the west. The war has taught the people of Alberta, at any rate, how to raise hogs advantageously and satisfactorily, and how to produce milk and cheese and butter in quantities such as were never before contemplated'. If we are to maintain the agricultural population that we now have in western Canada, we must, I believe, do one of two things: either produce a finer quality of what we are now producing, and more economically than it is now produced, or discover other ways and means of using these products, or other products which can be grown on the soil and in the climate of western Canada.
The first words I uttered in this house come back to me. They were said on the minister's estimates. I put it to myself at that time, and I put it to the committee: what would1 a business man do under similar circumstances? If he had a surplus production problem in respect of his plant, he would do one of two things. Either he would call in merchandizing specialists to show him ways and means of creating a consumer demand for what he was producing, and thereby enable him to get rid of his surplus, or he would go out and get the best scientific brains and ability that money could buy in order to show him how he could economically change his factory facilities to the production of some other commodity which he could produce economically and which would find a market. That is the history of every successful industrial institution on the north American continent.

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We have a surplus of wheat. I am not concerned about the possibility that that surplus will last very long. Once the war is over it will melt like the proverbial snowball. But I believe that two, three or four years after this war is over we shall be confronted with a surplus situation; and rather than depend on our ability to get rid of wheat as such, I should like to think that this country is employing the best scientific brains and ability available to find other products which can be economically produced in western Canada, or other means or uses for the products which are now produced in such enormous quantities. I believe that the answer is to be found in the brains and the test tubes of our young scientists. But having made it my business, in common with certain other western members to canvass the situation with the national research council-and these excellent gentlemen are doing a mighty fine work in that institution-I am impressed by this consideration :	from the very fact that that
institution is located here in the heart of industrial Canada, it is pressed more with the problems of industrial eastern Canada than with the urgency or the necessity of scientific research to find means of processing and making from our agricultural and other primary resources, new products and discovering or devising new uses for our agricultural and other natural products.
I hope that as a result of what has been said in the last few days under this particular item, the government-I have no doubt as to what the minister feels about it-will accede to the request of the agricultural representatives and see to it that, either under the Minister of Agriculture there are set up across this dominion laboratories manned by scientific men whose primary function shall be to discover new uses for our agricultural products, or else fresh emphasis shall be laid on that field of research with which our national research council is also charged. To my way of thinking the industrialists and manufacturers of eastern Canada, or of Canada as a whole if you will, are getting the benefit of the scientific brains and research work of the research council to a much greater extent than the primary producers. I do not say this has been to the detriment of those producers, but I do say the needs of industry are being over-emphasized as compared to the needs of our producers, who themselves individually are not impressed by the need for scientific research and study in the same way or to the same extent that the big manufacturing institutions of this dominion are.
I for one would be very much disappointed if something did not come out of this discussion which has been deliberately precipitated by thoughtful members of this house on both sides, who have no selfish motives or ideas but are trying to further the welfare of the country as a whole. At least that is my purpose, and I give the same credit to other hon. members who have spoken on this subject. Naturally I think of my own province, which is perhaps the only province in Canada which has a surplus of electrical energy, to say nothing of the coal and oil potentials with which to manufacture and process the natural products of the prairies. I look to the minister, as I am sure all agriculturists of western Canada look to him, as our champion, to find new ways and methods of using our products. I believe this will have to be done, and I think the answer will be found in the test tube and the scientifically trained men. I trust that never again will this item1 be the small, picayune thing it is now, in dollars and cents, having regard to the magnitude of the problem with which we are and shall be confronted in western Canada.


Mr. JAQUES:: This question of surplus foods is no new thing; it is a very old question. Of course as the minister said-and I like to think of the Minister of Agriculture as having one of the hardest heads in Canada -if we look at this question from the point of view of the war, then we may take one attitude towards it; but if we take the long view as to what is to be our policy after the war is over, then that is something entirely different.
Hon. members have said that the great problem is, to set scientists at work to find the most scientific methods of spoiling as much human food as possible-that is what it amounts to-because we have or will have a so-called surplus. In the interval between the two wars there were millions of people all over the world who were underfed and undernourished. I believe it has been stated by the chief government medical health officr in Great Britain that over fifty per cent of the people of that country are underfed and undernourished, and I am- perfectly certain that Britain's record is not worse than that of any other country. I have not the figures; I cannot carry them in my head anyway, but I believe the situation is even worse in the United States. Yet when people were literally starving, farmers actually were being paid not to raise hogs, to plough up their potatoes, and to do all sorts of absurd things. Now we are told that the solution
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is in the test tube. Well, as I have said before in this house, I have had a lifetime of experience in farming. I speak as a farmer, for the farmer, and I do not take a back seat to anyone in this house on that count. I have also had some preliminary training in chemistry, so that I know when people are talking a little science and when they are talking bunk. Most of it to-day is bunk; there is plenty of that.
What have we to do? I am not speaking of the war; for that is a totally different thing. War is hell, and just now we have to endure hell. I am speaking of the long-range programme, after the war is over, when surely we shall have a happier world, which means a better-fed world. Why has it been possible in the past to raise the food but impossible to distribute it? It is not a question of production but one of distribution, and in that connection you have to look not in the test tubes but in the ledgers of the bankers. Personally I have very little faith in so-called scientists; I think we need more hard-headed, common, horse sense. I think first the world has to learn-and people may laugh at it if they wish, but it is the truth and the war proves it-that under orthodox economics or orthodox finance or orthodox business or the orthodox price system it is impossible for the producer to distribute enough money to sell what he produces. That is why the consumer must be financed directly. If that were done the farmer would have no fear of not finding a ready market for everything he could produce. It is not a question of demand; the demand is there. It stands to reason that if people are underfed and undernourished, there is a demand for food; but the fact is that this demand is not effective because there is not enough money distributed to make it effective. So that rather than confess to ourselves that we have been blind in the past; rather than admit any mistakes on our part, the only solution we can see is to put our so-called scientists to work in order to spoil food and render it unfit for human consumption. If I might make a plea on behalf of the farmer-and I speak at present for the farmers as well as the rest of the people of Canada-it would be that we would put some real economists to work on the problem, so that in the end we could make financially possible anything -that is physically possible. We have done that during the war, and the only reason"we have done it is that in war time the canons of sound finance are silenced by the cannons of the enemy.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: May I associate myself with both hon. members who have preceded me? It is true that we ought to have the west industrialized a great deal more than it

is, and in that respect I agree entirely with the hon. member for Calgary West. I believe it is also true that we are going to deal more in the field of plastics and synthetic products than we have in the past.
I was shown through a plant on one occasion, and it was clearly demonstrated to me that first-class houses could be made out of potatoes. That was one example of the extent to which potatoes can be processed. The hon. member for Wetaskiwin would feel that that was a wastage of good food. I will grant that if there is a demand for that food, it should be used as food. But it is conceivable that our productive capacity in relation to potatoes will increase, and potatoes might go bad for lack of buyers. Under such circumstances it would surely be better to process them into something valuable.
I wish to ask the minister one or two questions with respect to the production of alcohol from wheat. What has been the experience in the manufacture of alcohol from durum wheat, or have any experiments been made?


James Garfield Gardiner: It would be about the same. There might be a slight difference, but not much.


John Horne Blackmore: What has been the experience in connection with sixth grade wheat?


James Garfield Gardiner: The closer it gets to 60 cents a bushel, in other words the lower the grade of the wheat used, the greater the possibility of producing alcohol from it. But what I said at the beginning is still true, that western farmers are not anxious to sell even low-grade wheat at less than 60 cents a bushel.


John Horne Blackmore: What has been done with respect to potatoes? Have any experiments been made to discover whether rubber can be made from alcohol extracted from potatoes?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, there have been experiments in that connection. The cost is very much lower with potatoes than it is with wheat.


John Horne Blackmore: In the course of our travels in England in 1941 we visited the university at Cambridge, and I was much impressed by some things I was told there. We were told about certain kinds of potatoes which were very large and misshapen, but it looked as though they might be developed to the point where the yield would be enormous. If we could find a type of potato from which we could extract alcohol under suitable conditions, we might be able to manufacture rubber from potatoes, and do it successfully.

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James Garfield Gardiner: The different costs might be best illustrated by giving a complete record of the crops investigated. This is a table showing the return per acre from different crops:
Return per acre
Artichokes	
$70	73Sugar beets	
75	73Potatoes	
48	78Corn	
36	42Barley	
30	10Wheat	
17	51
It will be noted that the returns per acre range from $75.73 for sugar beets down to $17.51 for wheat. I believe these figures indicate the commodities from which alcohol might best be produced.


John Horne Blackmore: What yield per acre of potatoes was used in making this computation?


James Garfield Gardiner: A yield of 250 bushels.


John Horne Blackmore: That is a small yield.


Stanley Howard Knowles: A few moments ago the minister drew a distinction between war-time and post-war conditions, and I believe that distinction was well taken. He suggested that the conditions under which we produce commodities while a war is on are different economically from the conditions prevailing in peace time, and that it is quite possible that there are some things we are producing to-day which in peace time could not be produced economically. I suggest however he should realize that hon. members, and particularly those of us from western Canada who are pressing this matter, have boith war-time and post-war periods in mind. We feel that a contribution to the war may be made by a further investigation into the possibilities of producing synthetic rubber from alcohol derived from grain, and, as other hon. members have pointed out, such as the hon. member for Calgary West, we are deeply concerned about the position of western agriculture, and agriculture throughout Canada, after the war is over. We are anxious that there shall be no depressing of the standard of living of our people on the farms. We feel it will not be possible to induce people to go back to the farms, if I may use that expression, from war industry and the armed services, simply by making speeches about the glories of farm life and all that sort of thing. We have to revolutionize agriculture and the possibility of its providing a really good life for the people who participate in it. I agree with the hon. member for Wetaskiwin, that there is much that needs to be done to turn the requirements of the people for food into effective economic
demand. But it appears that even after we have done that, there will still be surpluses of agricultural products; and unless we find other uses for them the people who will suffer will be the farmers. We urge that the Minister of Agriculture and his department approach aggressively this matter of further investigation.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I shall take only a few moments to add my voice particularly to what was said by the hon. members for Calgary West and Moose Jaw in connection with the support to be given to research work for the improvement of agricultural products and their use for industrial purposes. I am in complete accord with the statements made by those two hon. members and some others.
There is only one point I should like to make quite clear, and that is that the success of such a project would not be in the interests of agriculture only; industry would benefit very greatly if such a programme produced the results expected. Natural resources such as petroleum, coal and iron are wasting deposits on the north American continent. We see that illustrated particularly in respect of iron, petroleum and many other products of the mines. It would provide a useful contribution in the way of supply for our industrialists if out of the earth an annual crop could be produced to furnish substitutes for materials that are now gradually used up.
The hon. member for Moose Jaw mentioned a figure of $500,000. I think he set that figure arbitrarily in order to give point to his argument that research work should be carried on in this connection. I do not think any particular amount is involved in the expression of opinion that is coming from this committee. The men of the national research council who have given some thought to this matter point out that any research work of value is a matter of careful planning over a number of years. Research work involves a great number of failures, the elimination of what cannot be done in order to find out what [DOT] can be done. I think this committee would feel like urging upon the minister that an amount be provided from the treasury, whether it be under $500,000 or over $500,000, in order that these objectives may be reached.
I hope the minister will give effect to the almost unanimous opinion of this committee that such a plan should be put into operation, and that the scientists of this country be given an opportunity to contribute to our future welfare, as they have done to such a large degree in the past. A by-product, as it were, of this particular work, our young chemists and physicists would be kept in Canada. As a matter of course these men in the past have found employment in the
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United States, with tremendous loss to this country. These men would prove of inestimable value to us, and this work would give them an opportunity to serve Canada and improve Canadian standards of living.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
IS. Experimental farms service-Central experimental farm, $588,560.
John Horne Blackmore: I should like to pay a tribute to the work done by the central experimental farm at Ottawa and to tell the minister that I thoroughly support this appropriation.


Gordon Graydon: I want to make the shortest speech delivered this afternoon, and to say that I endorse what the last speaker has said with respect to the central experimental farm.


Mr. HANSELL:: Is the minister satisfied that there is no duplication of work by the federal experimental farms and the provincial farms? I do not see how it could be avoided, but I suppose the minister will say that there is no duplication. Money would be saved by avoiding such duplication in the future.


James Garfield Gardiner: This matter has been gone into on a number of occasions. The last time it was reviewed was when the Sirois report was presented. Speaking from memoir, I think it will be found that both provincial and federal authorities agreed that there was very little overlapping in agricultural work as between the provinces and the dominion. The provinces are entrusted with the task of looking after education, whether it is with regard to agriculture or anything else. I believe each province has an agricultural college, or at least each section of Canada has an agricultural college, and each institution has a certain amount of land that can be used for experimental purposes. That is true of Guelph, and the Ontario government also have a fruit experimental station in another part of the province. It is true also of Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the other provinces, with the possible exception of Prince Edward Island. The work carried on at these colleges does not overlap the work of the federal experimental farms.
Last year we closed the farm at Rosthern because it was considered to be too close to the agricultural college at Saskatoon, which caused a certain amount of overlapping. In addition there are committees upon which representatives of the provincial governments and the federal government meet to consider any work that may be required in a province with which the federal govem-

ment is associated. Any work that is done prcvincially is linked up with our work in order to cut down as much as possible the duplication which might occur in carrying on the activities of a country where there is a federated form of government.


Ernest George Hansell: Experimental work is
carried on by the colleges.


James Garfield Gardiner: Only along certain
specialized lines. The Ontario government has an experimental station in the middle of the fruit belt, but it does not duplicate any of our work.


Ernest George Hansell: Is the experimental farm
at Lacombe, Alberta, still operated?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Experimental farms service.
It. Branch farms and stations and illustration stations, $1,292,769.
Ernest Edward Perley: Could the minister give us some information as to the work being carried on by these branch farms and illustration stations, particularly those located in the west? There is considerable need for the production of seeds, such as flax, milkweed and sunflower. Also considerable work has been done by the federal government in connection with early maturing and rust-resistant grains. I should like to know to what extent the stations in the west are being used.


James Garfield Gardiner: Since the war began the work in connection with the production of seeds has been greatly increased. This has been necessary in order to supplement our supplies of seeds which were formerly produced in European countries. I should like to refer to a matter mentioned by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle a moment ago. I have in my hand printed copies of the information which was given to the agriculture and colonization committee at I think eleven different sittings and which deals with the very matters we are dealing with to-day. There are more than eleven; there are eleven already in print, and information with regard to most of the questions that are being asked here is contained in those reports, just as it will be in Hansard if we carry on this discussion. I should like to remind members that early in the session we had under discussion the question whether it would not be a good thing to have much of the discussion that takes place in the house, very often in the last two or three days of the session, carried on in a committee of the house where the officials could be present and give

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all the information that was required, and so my department was used as a guinea pig this session. We have submitted the Department of Agriculture to the committee, and for some weeks now we have been going through the process of permitting the members to go to that committee and get all the information they required from the officials. That information is all down in very good form, and any member can get these reports and read them.
When the committee began to sit, the question came up whether we were going to discuss in the house again all the matters that might be discussed in committee. There might be reasons for such a rule, but I said no; and I am not speaking now with the intention of debarring discussion, but simply to point out to the members who have not "had the privilege of sitting in the agriculture committee that anywhere from twenty to sixty members of the house have been attending a considerable number of the sittings of that committee and gathering all this information. When the estimates of the Department of Agriculture were submitted to the committee I was hoping it would have the result of permitting hon. members to go to the committee to bring out the information they wanted, which would appear in reports from day to day just as Harsard comes out, and that the information so furnished would answer most of the questions that are now being asked, and that discussion here might be confined to policy.


Mr. STIRLING:: Can the minister have an index to these volumes eventually produced? That would greatly assist in finding what you want.


James Garfield Gardiner: The volumes are not indexed individually, and I understand that an index will be prepared to all the reports. Here is one report; the front page shows that there was a general introduction by myself and Doctor Barton-we were called before the committee first; then Mr. Singleton spoke on dairying, Mr. Shaw on production, Mr. Presant on feeds, Mr. Brown on poultry, Mr. Pearsall on meats, and so forth.


Grote Stirling: The names of the witnesses who appeared before the committee are given, but if we are to use the reports as an informative work it would greatly assist if a subject index could be supplied when the reports are completed.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think that will be done.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister referred to the fact that I had earlier in this session suggested the very thing he has just mentioned.
The information that is asked for will for the most part be found in the committee's reports. I just wish now to ask a question with respect to substations. Are they being used any more . than they have been in the past, and if so to what extent? I know one or two in particular in my own district that are doing very little. I think they could be used to a much greater extent than they have been in the past.


James Garfield Gardiner: Experimental work is being carried on at the farms right across Canada. The Indian Head farm, I imagine, would not be suitable for carrying on experiments in connection with some garden seeds and other seeds that might be produced on some of our farms elsewhere. We are using the farm at Indian Head to carry on experiments in connection with grains of all kinds, particularly to secure rust-resistant varieties of the different types of grain. We are using the Swift Current farm not only for the purpose of assisting in connection with irrigation but also to investigate the use of farm machinery. It is being utilized to the greatest extent possible during this war period. We are attempting to grow certain seeds at our British Columbia farms, and the same is true of the fruit areas both in the maritime provinces and in Ontario. All our experimental work in connection with dehydration, for example, was carried on in a very limited way before the war at our farms such as that at Summerland in British Columbia and Kent-ville in Nova Scotia, and the men who were engaged in that work are the men who are heading the whole activities now in connection with dehydration as related to the war.
So far as the commodities we were speaking of a few moments ago are concerned, we are producing plants which will give rubber. That is being done on our farms in different parts of Canada. The same is true of soya beans. We are experimenting with soya beans right across the country, to see if we can develop varieties which can be produced successfully in the colder regions of Canada as compared with the warmer sections of the United States. That kind of work is going on constantly.


Percy Ellis Wright: We have in northeastern Saskatchewan an area which is engaged in the growing of alfalfa seed, and in that area we have three illustration stations. They are doing good work now, but their work is limited. The growing of alfalfa seed is something about which we have still a lot to learn. I think more scientific study should be given to it. These illustration stations are doing the best they can, but there is no scientist at the station. The stations are operated by the farmer on his own farm, under supervision. I
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do not think that is doing all that is necessary in the producing of that seed. No one seems to have any definite idea or knowledge as to why in some years the seed will set and in some years it will not. I urge upon the minister that definite experimental work be done in this connection. I do not know just what work is being carried on at Saskatchewan university, but I imagine something has been done there. Some work should be done in the area directly affected; the minister should establish more stations in this area to deal with this problem, which is of vital interest to the people there. It is seventy-five per cent of their living, and something which kept them off relief in the last two or three years prior to the war. The growing of alfalfa seed is a subject on which there is much to be learned. I should like the minister to comment on that.


James Garfield Gardiner: There are three stations located in the area where the alfalfa is being grown. The difficulty in the growing of alfalfa has as much to do with soils as with anything else. It has been found that there are sometimes deficiencies in the soil and experiments are being made to determine what may be lacking which the alfalfa plant requires. Then the farmers will be advised what they ought to do to give the soil what it requires. It is true that scientists are not at the stations. I am sure the hon. member for Melfort will agree with me that they do not lend themselves to a set-up sufficiently large to provide for having scientists stationed there, but we have laboratories located at Saskatoon, which is the educational centre in agricultural matters in the province of Saskatchewan. There is located there a forage crop laboratory. As to the seed not setting and questions of that kind, they are referred to our representative, Doctor White, at Saskatoon, who operates that particular laboratory. The other matters having to do with soil are referred to the soil section. We work in association with the college of agriculture in Saskatoon in relation to soils, and scientific men are located at these centres. We have men who do scientific work in connection with soils at Swift Current. We do not put them at stations located here and there in the different provinces but put them at central points; the results of experiments carried on at the experimental stations are referred to these men and they conduct scientific investigations and give scientific advice on these matters.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is there any man who makes a study of this particular question?


James Garfield Gardiner: Doctor White has an assistant who does nothing other than alfalfa work.


John Horne Blackmore: What success has been attained in the experiment of raising sugar beet seed? Our sugar supply has been cut off by the war, and this is an important question.


James Garfield Gardiner: The work in connection with sugar beet seed is done at the central experimental farm here and at Summerland, British Columbia. These are two farms at which we find it advisable to carry on that work. We have met with marked success. The beet seed1 can be grown successfully here.


John Horne Blackmore: There should not be any difficulty in raising enough beet seed1 to supply Canadian needs.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand we could raise all the seed here necessary to supply the requirements in Canada.


John Horne Blackmore: And at a reasonable cost to meet competition with German seed?


James Garfield Gardiner: The costs are fairly comparable with those in the United States, but they are not as low as on the European continent.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: We in this group are very much in favour of the plan the minister has outlined for getting materials relating to his estimates before members of the committee on agriculture and other committees as well. I suggest that if some announcement is made beforehand as to what particular items will be presented to the committees members may be able to have some representative from their group ask questions with regard to a particular item when it is impossible for them to attend. Personally I can say for this group that we are so busy with committees that often the overlapping makes it impossible for us to attend all committees. I think the move is one in the right direction, and it should be extended to other departments to prevent the disgraceful spectacle which we have sometimes when a few members sitting here pass millions of dollars in the dying days of the session, without any questions being asked. Has anything been presented to the committee with regard to the development of the sheep industry from the point of view of mutton and wool?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; that has been done.


George Hugh Castleden: What item is that?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not in print yet. Mr. Hamer gave information in that regard, but it has not yet been printed. It will be in print within a day or two.

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George Hugh Castleden: Does that give figures with regard to the sheep population of Canada, and is there anything in connection with the development of wool and mutton sheep suitable to western Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: I doubt very much whether there are detailed figures with regard to production, but I have some figures for production of farm products. That would come better under the item of production services, which comes next.


George Hugh Castleden: I think we should encourage the development of the sheep industry in western Canada. Some of the finest wool produced in Australia is produced in the cooler areas. There is diversification of agriculture there, and an opportunity for diversification would be beneficial to our western farmers.
Another matter which has been quite evident in recent months is the growing of potatoes. Western Canada grew a very large crop last year, and some farmers were offering people potatoes if they would come and dig them up. They have not been able to take advantage of the markets on account of the quality of the potatoes. They have a scab on them, and proper attention has not been given to growing the right kind. Is anything being done in the way of a programme of education to induce the people in that area to go into the commercial, growing of potatoes and shipping them? There is a problem out there, but if proper steps were taken to develop this line it would make western Canada one of the most productive fields. What has been done by the experimental farms in that direction?


James Garfield Gardiner: As regards sheep, we have been carrying on work similar to that done in Australia. We have taken some of their breeds, crossed them with some of our own and produced a Canadian type of sheep which we are now attempting to encourage people to make use of in building up flocks in this country. That work has been going on for some time. It is purely a western activity.
So far as potatoes are concerned, I have hesitated to raise the question here, but it seems that I cannot avoid it when a question is put to me direct. I understand that about 100 carloads of potatoes were shipped from Saskatchewan to the east during this period of comparative shortage, but I have been somewhat concerned ever since the war started about directing people to do things during war time, which they can do to advantage but which would probably put completely out
of business someone else who is just as much concerned about making a living as people in other sections of the country. It is well known that the Idaho potato is regarded as one of the best varieties produced on the American continent. Idaho runs up to our boundary line, and we have vast areas in the west on which I am satisfied we could produce potatoes. There are 500,000 odd acres of potatoes grown in Canada. We have 300,000 farmers in the west, and if we got each one to grow an acre of potatoes for sale it would play havoc with the potato market in Canada if we had to market the product here. I do not know that our people in the west are particularly anxious to get into the growing of potatoes. If we guaranteed a price ws could get them to grow so many potatoes next year that we could supply the continent, provided the price were high enough. Whether that is a good thing to do in the midst of a war, and when people do want to buy greater quantities of everything than before, is something about which I have some doubts. If we grow more potatoes in the west I hope it will be because we have a suitable market for them. We would go into potatoes and find in a year or two's time that not only were we not able to make anything ourselves, but we might have put everybody else out who could not grow anything other than potatoes to advantage.
I do not know how many hon. members of the committee have been in the section of New Brunswick where they grow potatoes. I was there last year and on one previous occasion. While we in western Canada talk about wheat, in so far as that more limited area is concerned they grow potatoes just as we grow wheat. I was astonished upon my first trip at the size of the area taken up with the growing of potatoes. While it is not large as compared with the level plains of western Canada, in that whole area the people depend absolutely on potatoes for their existence. I would hesitate even in war time to start inducing people in other sections where they can make a reasonable living to go into potatoes on a basis which, if not before the war is over, certainly when the war is over, would not help themselves and would injure other people. We have been trying to keep these things as nearly as possible on a sound basis.


George Hugh Castleden: I believe that the dehydrating plants in the east have used up practically all their supplies and that at the present time there is a shortage. If the minister reads the report of the food conference which was recently held in the United
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States he will find that one of the things they said there is that there has never been enough food in the world to satisfy the nutritional and health standards of the people of the world. We are going to need the production, and if present plans regarding freedom from want and fear are to be carried out we shall need a considerable production in those areas of western Canada where production is possible. I understand that the dehydration of potatoes to make potato starch is not a particularly complicated process, and it would provide a food which will be needed very seriously within the next three or four years, not only in this country but throughout the world.


Roy Theodore Graham: In normal times where do the New Brunswick potatoes find their market?


James Garfield Gardiner: Some of them, in Canada, some of them in the West Indies; some in South America, as seed; some of them in the United States. The hon. member who sits across from me-he is not in his place at the moment-markets a lot of them and could tell the hon. member for Swift Current more about them than I can. At the present time they are marketed all over the particular areas I have mentioned.


Roy Theodore Graham: Is there any duty on the entry into the United States of those potatoes?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Mr. FAIR:: May the price of wool be discussed under this item?


James Garfield Gardiner: It does not come under this item; it comes under marketing or under the war appropriation.


George Hugh Castleden: What was the grade of these western potatoes which the minister said were shipped from the west to the east?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that they were mostly "A".


George Hugh Castleden: They were all graded before they were shipped?


James Garfield Gardiner: I think they were; yes.


George Hugh Castleden: And they came up to standard?


James Garfield Gardiner: Well, they would, yes. They would have to, before they would be graded those grades.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: It has been stated that this country could grow enough potatoes to supply the whole continent if we utilized our land. According to to-night's Journal the 
duty on potatoes has been slashed from ten to fifteen per cent. How will that affect the production of potatoes this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: I would rather leave the discussion of this matter until we come to marketing.


John Horne Blackmore: Inasmuch as the question has been raised of the findings of the food conference at Hot Springs and the statement has been given us that they found that the world has never produced enough food, I think it would be fitting that we point out that the committee did not take the trouble to mention in their report that the world never has been able to buy all the food which the world has produced. In my judgment that is an exceedingly important point. The committee's report went at the whole problem entirely from the wrong end'; it failed to discover why the world has not been able to buy the production which the world has had.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production service.
16. Health of animals-administration of Animal Contagious Diseases Act and Meat and Canned Foods Act, $1,818,000.
Mark Cecil Senn: I should like to get a little information from the minister on this particular item. It seems that under these items there are three different plans for the eradication of tuberculosis. The first is what is known as the accredited herd plan; second, there is the supervised herd plan; and, third, is the restricted area plan. All of these in the past have been very successful and I think they have done a good work. From time to time arrangements are made for the restricted area plan, particularly. I should like to know how many accredited herds there are in the process of being worked out; how many restricted areas are ready for work; how many of them are going to be done this year; how many supervised herds have made application, and how many are to be carried through this year.
While I am on my feet I should like to know whether there is any intention on the part of the department to change the valuation of these cattle for compensation purposes. The valuations are always very low, and1 I understand that there is a limit on the valuation that can be paid for any pure bred animal, or any animal in a restricted area. Everybody knows that the price of cattle has increased greatly. Pure bred cattle, particularly dairy cattle, are selling at comparatively high prices to-day, and it does not seem reasonable that the same price should be paid as compensation to-day as was paid when cattle were very much

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lower in price. Has any consideration been given to changing the amount of the valuation that is allowed, and, if so, what is it the intention of the department to do?


James Garfield Gardiner: The present rate of compensation for cattle which are slaughtered on account of tuberculosis is two-thirds of $60 for grades and two-thirds of S150 for pure breds. We have had requests for increases in those amounts since the price of cattle went up, but I would recall that it is not very long since the price of cattle was pretty well down at the bottom, and we did not reduce the amounts during that period of time.


Mark Cecil Senn: Oh, no; but may I remind the minister that the limits were not always paid. The valuation was made, I understand, by the veterinary who tested the cattle.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is true.


Mark Cecil Senn: And they do not always pay the limit.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is true; it is a maximum that is set. We have not considered raising the maximum, up to the present. We have not thought it wise to do so, largely by reason of the war conditions under which we are operating.


Mark Cecil Senn: In one breath the minister says they have not considered it, and in the next he says they do not think it is wise. What does he mean?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have not considered doing it, I should say. We have considered it; we have had letters from time to time asking us to do it, and we have written back to each organization or person stating that we have not decided to take this action, so that up to date there has been no increase, and I have no reason for saying that there will be.


Mark Cecil Senn: Will the minister give the list of restricted areas that are in contemplation for this year? I ask the question because two or three years ago my own district voted in favour of it, but it has never been carried out there. I should like to know the names of the particular areas, at least in Ontario.


James Garfield Gardiner: Under the accredited herd plan we have 8,275 fully accredited herds; we have 211 herds in the process of accreditation, and twenty-four herds for which accreditation has been asked but which have not been checked as yet. That makes a total of 8,510 herds. Under the supervised herd plan we have 38,492 herds tested and 2,639 herds awaiting test, making a total of 41,131. I think the other question had to do with the restricted areas?


Mark Cecil Senn: In Ontario, the areas in process of being accredited, or where that is in contemplation.


James Garfield Gardiner: In eastern Ontario the
cattle tested for the first time numbered 77,631; the total tests made numbered 128,805; the reactors numbered 302, and there were 306 reactors slaughtered. I do not know just how we could have only 302 reactors and 306 slaughtered, but I suppose the other four were carried over from the previous year. Compensation awarded amounted to $9,989; that ie for eastern Ontario. I have the figures for thf Belleville district, the Toronto district-


Mark Cecil Senn: That must be re-tests; that cannot be the original tests, surely.


James Garfield Gardiner: Some would be re-tests; unless the original tests were made this year they would not be the originals. This is the statement for this year. For the Belleville district, which limits it to a more restricted area, the number of herds under supervision totalled 1,927. The number of cattle under supervision was 23,178; the cattle tested for the first time this year numbered 13,189; the tests made numbered 23,475, and there were ninety-four reactors, all of which were slaughtered at a cost of $2,096. That is a very low figure.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is for Ontario?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is just the Belleville district.


Mark Cecil Senn: I think the minister missed the real point of my question. There are certain areas which are accredited from year to year, and there are certain other areas which are awaiting to be accredited, and that was the information I wanted to get.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member means the restricted districts?


Mark Cecil Senn: Yes.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have the certified districts in Ontario, with the dates of expiration: Brant, July 1, 1945; Carleton township, September 1, 1945; Frontenac, April 1, 1946; Kenora district, December 1, 1945; Manitoulin island, May 1, 1944; Prescott, March 1, 1949; Rainy River district, October 1, 1943; Russell, April 1, 1949; St. Joseph island, December 1, 1947; Temiskaming, December 1, 1945.


Mark Cecil Senn: Are there any to be commenced this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have those which have been accepted but not yet tested; I think this is the group the hon. member wants: Hastings county, Haldimand county, Lennox-Addington, Huron, Bruce, Haliburton, Oxford, Perth, Wellington, Middlesex and Elgin.
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Mark Cecil Senn: Is the department contemplating starting any of those this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is only one we hare definitely decided to go on with this year, namely Wellington.


Victor Quelch: I live in one of these
tuberculosis-free areas in Alberta, and when that district first came under the scheme it was understood that a very much larger area was to be included. I understand, however, that owing to the war this work has had to be stopped. Unfortunately this is what is happening. A large number of untested stock are being brought into the district every year, and I was wondering what action is being taken by the government to check that practice. I know it is happening right along, and I know a great many people are doing it innocently, but apparently no check is being made. They ship a truckload of stock from Calgary; the stock are fed in the district, and some are kept there. I am afraid that the next time a check is made a large number of stock will be found that have not been tested.


James Garfield Gardiner: There may be persons living in that vicinity who allow untested cattle to come into the area, but I happen to live in one of those areas myself, and I have cattle both in the west and in Ontario. My cattle in the east are not in a restricted area, and I am not able to ship even my own cattle to the western area unless I have them tested before sending them. Somebody sees that I must do this, and I think that is generally true.


Victor Quelch: It has happened in that province. For instance, the boundary line is just a few miles south of my home. I attended an auction sale one day, and farmers were buying stock and bringing it to my district. There is nothing to stop them.


James Garfield Gardiner: The present position is that if I bring an animal into my herd in the restricted area, and that animal is not tested,
I am pretty well faced with the necessity of having my whole herd inspected before I can keep those cattle. I just do not do that.
I have run into that experience once or twice, where I have gone out into a restricted area to buy a bull, for example. I never bring that bull and put him on my farm until he is tested, because if I did I would be up against the possibility of having the whole herd polluted, and I would have to have them all tested.


Victor Quelch: Would it not be wise to remind the people once in a while that they

are in a T.B. area, and that they have no right to bring stock in? I do not think it is done wilfully; perhaps they just forget.


Ernest Edward Perley: Is there a general increase in the restricted area in the west, or what is being done along that line? Further, what has been done about community pastures which have been established? Do the officials insist that all animals coming into those pastures be tested, or do they allow them in without?


James Garfield Gardiner: In answer to the hon. member's first question, I think if we had the money to conduct the tests, and the men to conduct them, we could have had nearly all Canada as a restricted area at this time. That is, that would be the case if we were to take into consideration what the public want us to do. We have applications from all parts of Canada, and they come in, in as great or perhaps greater numbers from the west than from any other part. Since the war started we have been holding down our expenditures for this purpose. In the first place, we have been setting aside enough money to complete the inspection, and then re-inspect to be sure that the district is pretty well relieved of T.B. cattle. In addition to that, we have the condition that two or three counties may already be in, or two or three municipalities, and there would be a natural land division-a river, a lake or something of that kind forming the boundary-which would render a municipality part of that natural group, and where cattle would naturally move, as has been indicated by the hon. member for Acadia. We have attempted to overcome that situation by getting all that area in as soon as possible, and we have been carrying on tests in areas of that kind, even since we have been short of the cash required to do it to the extent we would desire to do it.
In addition to that, we are taking into consideration all of the requests made to us from different parts of Canada, and we are having those lined up so that we may deal with them as soon as we have the funds. The work is going on as rapidly as possible.


Ernest Edward Perley: And what about my other question, with respect to pasture?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have the cattle in the pastures checked for TH.


Ernest Edward Perley: Has it been found that TJB. has developed in any of the pastures? I ask that, because there are large numbers of stock in those pastures.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have no information of that kind in mind. We will come to another item in a few moments which deals

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with the pastures, and I shall give the information the hon. member requires. However, I would remind the committee that when we did market some thousands of cattle in 1937, from all the drought areas of the three western provinces, we tested them and found only a veTy small percentage of cattle were afflicted with T.B.
* Mr. PERLEY: The minister said a moment ago that there were more applications from western Canada for the establishment of restricted areas than from other parts of Canada. Do I understand that to mean that the health of animals is not as good in western Canada as it is in other parts? I have been under the impression that the health of western animals was better than that of those in other parts of Canada.
While I am on my feet I should like to ask another question, one which may have been answered while I was out of the house. When I returned a few moments ago the minister was replying to the hon. member for Haldimand in connection with compensation allowed. Was that question asked?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: Has there been any increase in the allowance? It will be realized that animals are worth much more now.


James Garfield Gardiner: No; there has been no increase. I said when answering the hon. member for Haldimand that we had not intended making any increase.
In reply to the first question of the hon. member, may I point out that the first anti-T.B. area was at Carman, Manitoba.. The second was just in the bow of the Qu'Appelle river and Long lake. When the late Mr. Motherwell was Minister of Agriculture he introduced the idea. The first one was established at Carman, and the second at the point I have indicated. In other words, one of the reasons why the policy has been accepted to such an extent in that section is that that is where it was first introduced. On the other hand, until more recently Alberta did not come under it. I believe that was owing to a certain extent to the view held by certain ranchers in that area during the earlier period in which this policy operated. Recently, however, Alberta has come in. In fact, that province came in since I became Minister of Agriculture.
So that it is not a matter of where T.B. was most prevalent. As a matter of fact, if it were left to the people themselves I believe the place which would come in last would probably be the place where they had some fear as to the number of cattle which
would have to be slaughtered. Generally speaking, however, this is being accepted throughout Canada. I believe the maritime provinces are covered now to a greater extent than any other part of Canada.


Percy Chapman Black: What part of Nova Scotia is now in a restricted area? Does it cover the entire province, or just the mainland?


James Garfield Gardiner: I think all of Nova
Scotia, with the exception of Cape Breton, now is a restricted area.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Is there a shortage of veterinaries in the department? In my constituency I find that there is only one veterinary and that he must cover five or six counties outside of the ones I represent. It is almost impossible to get the services of a veterinary to give a certificate, in the event of a farmer wishing to sell some of his stock.


James Garfield Gardiner: On account of the scarcity of veterinaries?


Heber Harold Hatfield: Yes.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is a difficulty right across Canada. I do not know just what can be done to overcome it.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Is there any relief in sight?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand another man is being sent there to assist.


Mr. WEIR:: A moment ago the minister referred to the first accredited area in Canada. Might I tell him that he could have gone farther and said that the first T.B. area established in the British empire was established in the Carman area, when three municipalities were first brought in under these regulations.
May I say to the hon. member for Acadia who has said that he does not see how these areas are supervised to keep out untested stock from other areas, that a review of the experience in the area in which I have lived since this work was undertaken discloses that strict provision is made against moving live stock which has not been tested into that area. No railway company or licensed trucker will take stock out of a stockyard and bring it into those areas without first advising the officials that it is being brought in. There might have been some transgression in respect of border-line stock sold at auction sales, or cattle running at large. But that is about all; and that is one of the reasons why the
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Department of Agriculture has since attempted to establish natural boundaries, so that there might not be this transgression back and forth.
I should like to refer to another matter, *which came up in the agriculture committee this morning-Bang's disease. Several representations have been made of recent date to the minister urging that more work be done in connection with this disease which is causing considerable damage to certain herds in the country. It may cause greater loss to the individual than even bovine tuberculosis, and yet no provision is made for compensation. I have in mind two or three herds which, on account of their being afflicted with this disease, have proved almost a complete loss as far as usefulness and production are concerned. This is one branch of animal diseases which I feel should receive additional consideration. Its prevalence seems to be increasing, and something in a national way should be undertaken in an attempt to control it. Who stands the expense of the blood-tests for Bang's disease which must be made of cattle exported to the United States for breeding purposes?


James Garfield Gardiner: We bear the cost of inspecting cattle for Bang's which are going to the United States. This disease has been under consideration since long before I came to Ottawa, and it is still under consideration by the department. One of the first delegations I received after I came east was of live stock breeders from the eastern provinces, particularly Ontario, who had strong objections to the restrictions which were being imposed in connection with Bang's disease. The government had been advised to brand the diseased animal with a large "B", where everyone could see it. This would act as a warning to people that the animal had Bang's disease. As I say, strong objection was taken to this, and we compromised to the extent of branding only with a small "B" in the ear. Anyone could see this if they were looking for it, but it would not stare him in the face when he walked into a stable.
I cite this to indicate the objections that were made; these were similar to those made in the early days in connection with the tests for tuberculosis. A great many people who owned and bred cattle took strong exception to the tuberculosis test at one time, but this has been overcome by the people learning to appreciate what it means. The same thing happened in connection with Bang's; the people would not accept the tests as being final. Some contended that the disease could be cured, and we have been conducting investigations and making surveys with regard to the matter. We keep a check on cattle that are moving. We
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have to test cattle which enter the United States for breeding purposes, and they are not permitted to enter until a certificate has been issued. I have no doubt that in due course a method of dealing with this disease will be established, somewhat similar to that used, in connection with tuberculosis. I doubt very much, however, if we would be able to embark on a policy of that kind during the war period.


George Alexander Cruickshank: How many restricted areas are there in British Columbia?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is the Fraser river valley and the settled section of Vancouver island.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I have heard a
little boasting by some hon. members from Manitoba. I want to use this information in connection with the item covering marketing. I take it that British Columbia is the only province where all the fluid milk is obtained from tuberculosis-free districts; is that correct?


James Garfield Gardiner: The Fraser river valley provided a natural area for this work, which was carried out in the early days of the policy. The ministers in the early days, whether they belonged to this party or to the party opposite when they were in power, took the view that any area which was naturally bounded by obstructions over which cattle would not readily go should be completely tested as soon as possible. The Fraser river valley proved an ideal place for that to be done, and it was done.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am not quarrelling with that; I am entirely in favour of it. However, for the purposes of item 22 I wanted to know whether British Columbia was the only province in which all fluid milk was supplied from TJ3. free areas. That is my information and I should like to know if it is correct.


James Garfield Gardiner: New Brunswick is entirely covered by anti-tuberculosis areas; Nova Scotia is except Cape Breton, and Prince Edward Island has also been tested.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and British Columbia; the four neglected parts of Canada are the four that are entirely covered.


Ernest Edward Perley: Is not a system of pasteurization just as good?


Mark Cecil Senn: Some time ago, I believe a
year or two, the minister stated that vaccine for the treatment of Bang's disease could not be imported from the United States or from any other place. Has any change been made in that regulation? Has the test for Bang's disease been found to be accurate? I understand

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that the United States will accept a certificate of cleanliness when the cattle are being shipped, without having a further test made.


James Garfield Gardiner: My information is that
the test has been found to be trustworthy and accurate. Most of the states in the United States accept a certificate from our veterinarians that cattle have been tested and found free of Bang's. A vaccine was used some time ago in some of the states which was believed to provide a cure. However, we were a little loath to admit it into Canada until we were fairly sure that it would have successful results. The vaccine is now being admitted into Canada. I understand that the calves are inoculated with the vaccine at an early age and are rendered immune from the disease. A sufficiently long time has gone by and a sufficient number have been treated to satisfy the department that there is a real advantage in using the vaccine.


Mr. McCANN:: I would point out to the minister that there is a close relationship between diseases of animals and some that are transmitted from animals to human beings. The treatment of Bang's disease, for example, has been discussed here this afternoon. Bang's disease transmits to human beings what is known as undulant fever, for which no successful treatment has yet been discovered. Almost invariably that disease in human beings has a fatal termination. So that I would urge upon the minister that every possible avenue be explored for the eradication of Bang's disease and that animals having the disease be treated or slaughtered, for the protection of human life.
With reference to those animals which are treated for tuberculosis, the Department of Agriculture, in its health of animals branch, does not in my opinion go far enough. It should promote the pasteurization of milk throughout the whole country, even if it is necessary to subsidize certain provinces. The results of pasteurization in those provinces where it is in effect, particularly in Ontario, have been outstanding, especially with reference to bovine tuberculosis and milk-borne diseases transmitted to human beings such as typhoid and typhus fevers. I suggest to the minister that in view of this knowledge the department is not going far enough, and that it should encourage pasteurization in all the provinces, even going to the extent of subsidizing those provinces which are not in a position to carry it into effect.
I wish to say a word in reference to an epidemic that occurred two or three years ago among horses, particularly in Manitoba. There was an epidemic there of encephalitis
and poliomyelitis. These diseases were transmitted from horses to human beings. That was clearly established by investigations made by the department of health of Manitoba, with the valuable assistance of the Rockefeller Institute of New York. It was shown that there was a direct relationship between the disease which affected horses in certain areas of that province and the disease transferred to human beings. Are investigations being conducted with a view to eradicating these diseases and to develop other preventive measures for the protection of the health of human beings from animal diseases?


James Garfield Gardiner: The question with regard to Bang's disease is one with which this department is directly concerned. If we were to slaughter animals because they have Bang's disease, in order to prevent not only the spread of the disease among animals but its transmission to human beings, we would, of course, take the same action we have taken in regard to T.B. cattle. But when you go beyond that to the question of pasteurizing milk and that kind of thing, you are dealing with something which comes under the departments of health, federal and provincial. As was just stated by the hon. member, the investigations that were made and the work that was done in Manitoba were done under the department of health. Methods taken to render milk immune from the germs that cause disease in' human beings and all diseases of that kind are a matter for the department of health.


James Joseph McCann: Is there any degree of cooperation between the federal department of health and the Department of Agriculture in that matter?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; there would be in the matter of the destruction of animals and that kind of thing. Our veterinarians are cooperating with the officials in the provinces, health or otherwise, in tracing up any disease in animals which might be transmitted to human beings.


Mark Cecil Senn: There is another contagious disease in animals which is known as shipping fever, the ravages of which in Ontario, and I have no doubt in other parts of the country, are very serious indeed. What action is being taken by the department to combat this disease which causes so much loss to cattle shippers and producers in Ontario?


James Garfield Gardiner: Nothing has been done which has so far proved effective. I understand it is a difficult disease to control.


Mark Cecil Senn: It is.
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James Garfield Gardiner: It is developed to some extent through the conditions under which the animals are shipped. We have not yet found a way of dealing with it successfully.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I do not know what the regulations are, but we had a veterinarian in Chilliwack, British Columbia, last year, who was not allowed enough gasoline to go out and treat cattle that were diseased. He said he could not get the gasoline. The farmers asked him what they should do, and the answer was that they should bring their cattle into the veterinarian's office.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Is any compensation paid in connection with Bangs disease?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, none.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is there any outbreak of encephalitis among horses this year in western Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: No.
Mr. CASTLEDE.N: There are ninety-nine inspectors at $1,600. Would the minister give their distribution by provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: There are not enough of them; that is the main point.


George Hugh Castleden: They must be distributed by provinces. Could that information be put on the record?


James Garfield Gardiner: They are distributed across the country, but it is difficult to get enough to do the work. Yes; the information can be given.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN:: The item before the committee is No. 17, compensation for animals slaughtered, $375,468.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production service.
18.	Live stock andi poultry, $719,992.
Percy Ellis Wright: What is the estimated increase in poultry in Canada this year?


Mr. GERSHAW:: While the minister is looking up that information I wish to call the attention of the committee to the fact that a large portion of southern Alberta is again suffering from a severe drought. Not only have growing crops failed to make progress, but even the grass is not growing

because of the continued lack of rain. The live stock in that area are suffering very seriously. I realize that with a war on, and with scarcity of material and labour, it is almost impossible to provide water for a large portion of that land, but at the same time the people are faced with great distress, and some temporary measures will need to be taken in order to enable them to keep going and to produce the stock which is so badly required at the present time. There are very few community pastures available there, and yet these people must move the stock to some place where they can secure feed. I urge that something be done by some government very soon to relieve the urgent situation that has developed in the last few weeks.


James Garfield Gardiner: First, with regard to the increase in poultry, the figure I have here shows an increase of thirty-eight per cent in the number of chicks produced in 1942 as compared with 1941. Practically everything else in the way of increase depends on that one item.
In reply to what has been said by the hon. member for Medicine Hat, the department has a policy under which that matter is taken care of, provided the province acts in accordance with the plan which is laid out, but that comes under prairie farm rehabilitation. However, the policy in short is this. We agree to put in reserve pastures and community pastures, provided land is made available with which to do it. We have large pastures in Saskatchewan, fifty odd, some taking in 100,000 acres, and reserve pastures on which we do not permit cattle to go until there is a year such as is described now to the south of Medicine Hat. If we had large pastures there, we could of course assist by having the cattle turned into them, but the only other way of dealing with the matter is to have action taken first by the province and representations made to us that some consideration be given.


George Hugh Castleden: Will the minister explain the item of $134,000 in connection with bonuses and premiums? WThere is that money spent? Is the grant to fairs being continued this year?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I would point out to the hon. member that we are on item 18. That question would come under item 20.


George Hugh Castleden: The item before the committee is for live stock and poultry, and in this connection there are bonuses and premiums amounting to $134,000 odd.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is for boys' and girls' clubs, stallion clubs, board clubs and others of that type.

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Mark Cecil Senn: Is the sire bonus policy being continued, the policy of purchasing sires, or helping farmers who need them?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. We are continuing the policy as it was.


Mark Cecil Senn: In both cattle and sheep?


James Garfield Gardiner: Cattle, sheep and swine.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production service.
19.	Plant products-Seeds, feeds, fertilizers, insecticides, and fungicides control, including grant of $18,900 to Canadian Seed Growers Association, $535,785.
Mark Cecil Senn: Will the minister make a statement with regard to the projects in hand for furnishing seed of different kinds, particularly vegetable seeds, and that sort of thing? We have come to the point where we cannot purchase them from Europe. Perhaps he will give a short outline of what is being done in that regard.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is really under the war appropriation which we shall come to later on.


George Hugh Castleden: Where is the centre of the Canadian Seed Growers' Association? Is this an annual grant, or must they carry on certain work? If so, what is the nature of that work?


James Garfield Gardiner: The centre of operations is here in the department and funds are provided for the work they are required to do.


George Hugh Castleden: There are associations in the provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Seed growers' associations?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: Is it distributed by provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not spent by
provinces. The expenditure is centralized from here.


Heber Harold Hatfield: This does not include the subsidy on fertilizers?	*


James Garfield Gardiner: That is under war
appropriation.


Mark Cecil Senn: Yes, but I understand that certain subsidies are granted for fertilizers under this item. Would the minister give us an idea of how these are conducted?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand, not under this item. All of our fertilizer subsidies now are paid under the war appropriation. We shall come to that under the other estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production service.
20.	Grants to fairs and exhibitions, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $65,000.
Ernest Edward Perley: Are the grants to the larger fairs being continued? Is the Toronto exhibition not closed up? They have taken over the exhibition grounds.


James Garfield Gardiner: There are no grants paid at all either to class A or class B fairs, or to any fairs, except the building grants in respect of obligations incurred over the years. In the building programme, certain amounts were undertaken to be paid over a ten or twenty year period, so that we are obligated to pay these instalments as they come due.


Ernest Edward Perley: There are no special grants?


James Garfield Gardiner: No special grants.


Mr. CARDIFF:: There are no grants paid to individual fairs throughout the provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; there are none now.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to have a few details about the Vancouver fair, in our province, following the reference to the Toronto one. The British Columbia security commission took over at a tremendous figure the industrial fair property which we had. I appreciate the fact that so much money is voted each year to pay for some buildings which have been built. My understanding is, although I may be wrong, that in their generosity the British Columbia security commission are looking after the Vancouver fair property, and I do not see why, if that money is being so paid, it could not be diverted to class B fairs. It does not seem reasonable to me, if we want to maintain our class of agricultural production in so far as live stock is concerned, that class B fairs should have to suffer. The federal government are still making exceptional grants for the buildings. I do not care what anybody says; the grants are for the Vancouver buildings. Tremendous sums were spent in changing the interior of the buildings, tearing out perfectly good construction and reconstructing these buildings for the Japanese. If that can be done, I wish to know why money cannot be provided for class B fairs. As I see it, we are paying the same money twice from the federal treasury in respect of these particular buildings.


James Garfield Gardiner: The amounts of money in this item are: For the maritimes, $5,000; Quebec, about $15,000; Royal Winter Fair, $35,000; Vancouver, $10,000. That makes up the $65,000. Those are amounts for buildings. We entered into a contract with the exhibition board of Vancouver to spend a certain amount of money on buildings over a period of years. The amount to be paid is $10,000 a year;
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$100,000 is to be paid over ten years, so that $10,000 is to be paid this year. There is not any way that we can get out of that obligation unless we say that we intend to go back on the contract we made. No grants are being paid to any association in British Columbia or anywhere else in Canada at present for the conducting of fairs; we are simply carrying out our obligations under a building contract "which was entered into some years ago.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am not suggesting that the government should repudiate responsibility for any payment. What I am suggesting is that if the federal treasury pays a sum far greater than $10,000 a year-


James Garfield Gardiner: We do not.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I am suggesting that if the federal treasury, not the minister's department, paid a sum far greater than $10,000 toward the building, the reconstructed building, surely some attempt should be made to offset one grant against the other. I should not be talking against a grant for my own province-British Columbia gets far too few grants-but I cannot see why the class B fairs are left out, particularly since in my own province there are only two class B fairs, namely, Chilliwack and Armstrong, and their grants are withheld, while we pay many times more than that under the Department of National Defence for a job to which I particularly object. Money has been squandered in British Columbia in removing perfectly good lumber, for which the taxpayers have to pay, and burning it on the grounds, in the process of converting these buildings into a Japanese mobilization camp.


James Garfield Gardiner: There was not much lumber in that building.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Which building?


James Garfield Gardiner: The building that this $10,000 is paid on.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I think the minister knows enough about law to understand that the Vancouver exhibition association is incorporated, and you do not pay that money on any individual building.


James Garfield Gardiner: Oh, yes. We undertook to assist in building the last building which was built, some four or five years ago. As my hon. friend knows, it is a fireproof building, constructed largely with cement and steel; and this $10,000 is to pay one-tenth of the cost.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I did not say that. What I said, with all due deference to the minister, and I stand corrected if I am wrong,

is that I understand that that money is not paid into a separate account of the Vancouver exhibition association, but into the general account. However, if the minister's explanation is correct, I stand corrected.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Production service.
21.	Grants to agricultural organizations, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $33,500.
Ernest Edward Perley: What agricultural organizations are receiving grants?


James Garfield Gardiner: The Canadian council of boys and girls club work, $5,000; advanced registry board, dairy pools, $4,500; live stock records, $18,000; advanced registry board for swine, $8,000.


Mark Cecil Senn: I wish to know something about this boys and girls club work. Most of these boys and girls clubs are provincial in character and, in Ontario at least, receive grants from the provincial governments. Are these clubs and this council affiliated with provincial boys and girls club work, or are they separate entirely and do they take up a different class of Work? '


James Garfield Gardiner: This is a coordinating body which covers all the boys and girls work that is being done throughout Canada. In reading the last item, having to do with advanced registry boards for swine, I should have said that the grant of $8,000 had been reduced to $6,000; it is $2,000 less.


Mark Cecil Senn: Why? I thought they were doing a very important work. They are meeting quite regularly, I know, and if there is one thing more than anything else which I think needs boosting in Canada to-day, it is the quality of our hogs. I do not understand why the amount is reduced.


James Garfield Gardiner: A certain feeding policy is carried on, and the amount of money obtained from that source enables us to reduce by $2,000 the amount to be voted this year. The amount spent will be as great.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service.	.
22.	Marketing service administration, $101,314.
George Alexander Cruickshank: I should like to ask a few questions under this item, because I am interested in this matter of marketing. I am sorry that Hansard does not show some of those who seem particularly anxious to rush through the agriculture estimates; I am sure it would foe interesting reading for the farmers of Canada.. Surely we can take a little time to discuss our main industry, when we can waste hours and hours and days and

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days talking isolationism and every other kind of ism. I was told this would be the proper item under which to bring up questions concerning marketing, and I am interested in how the department arrives at the amounts that are paid as subsidies on various agricultural products, particularly in connection with dairying.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am sorry if I misled my hon. friend this afternoon, but all subsidies and payments of that kind come out of the amounts provided under the war appropriation act, and I hope we may get to those quite soon. I have not before me the figures in that connection.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I was not going to ask the minister for any particular figures, but perhaps I might have the privilege under this item of saying a word or two in connection with subsidies, if I am in order.


James Garfield Gardiner: It would be better under the other item, because this covers general marketing.


George Alexander Cruickshank: All right; I will talk about general marketing, and I am sure this will not be out of order. We were told by the minister to-day that in western Canada we could produce enough potatoes for the entire continent, with our climate and the suitability of our soil; I am speaking of western Canada' in this case, not of British Columbia. I should like to ask the minister what will be the effect, on the sale of what potatoes we are able to produce, of the reduction of from ten to fifteen per cent in the tariff which was announced to-day and which, incidentally, was not announced in this house but was announced in the newspapers while the house was in session. Later on, I may ask definite questions in regard to subsidies, but surely the sale of dairy products comes under marketing administration. To-day we had a discussion on restricted areas, among other matters. It is my opinion, and I think the opinion of the dairymen of British Columbia, that you cannot possibly sell dairy products in a restricted area at the same prices as in an unrestricted area. Surely that is obvious, from the questions asked this afternoon by the hon. member for Haldimand in regard to the compensation paid when cattle are condemned and destroyed.
I am not particularly interested in the Department of Finance, for the very simple reason that I do not think they know anything at all about agriculture, but I have every confidence that the Department of Agriculture knows something about that subject. Under this item of marketing I think we
are entitled to know how it is planned to market our dairy products, at prices which will permit us to continue to produce. This does not mean that I am asking for any definite figures as to the amounts of subsidies, but surely we are entitled to know how the officials of this department arrive at those subsidies. Do they take into consideration the cost of production and then add taxes, wages and other factors entering into it? Surely this department and the branch concerned with marketing must study these matters, and I should like the minister to give me some explanation of how these amounts are arrived at. I am not talking about the actual figures of ten cents a pound on this or four cents a pound on that, set by the wartime prices and trade board. What I am interested in learning is how the Department of Agriculture arrives at the figures in advising those who do fix the subsidies, whether they take into consideration the cost of production, the quality of the product and so on. I should be glad if the minister would give me a little explanation of that matter.


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not had time
to read the newspapers to-day, and I do not know who made the announcement to which my hon. friend refers. I do not know of any fifteen per cent reduction.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I never said anything about a fifteen per cent reduction; I said there had been a reduction in the tariff of from ten to fifteen per cent, according to to-day's Journal, on potatoes, cabbages, carrots and so on.


James Garfield Gardiner: Of course that does not come under agriculture; it would come under national revenue, or some other department. No announcement has been made by this department in that regard. We are hoping that the potato acreage will be greatly increased. Our information is that it will be up from 505,000 acres to 526,000 acres, and of course as a department we are interested in production. We have attempted to bring about an increase in production. So far as these other matters are concerned, there is only one place where they can be properly discussed. I do not say that the officials of my department do not discuss them, but they come under the war appropriation items which I hope to reach in a short time. All the subsidies, increased prices and assistance of that kind, designed to make it possible for the farmer to continue to produce during war time, are made under the war appropriation, which we shall reach in due course.
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George Alexander Cruickshank: Am I to understand that when a certain item comes up we shall be permitted to ask how these subsidies are arrived at? I want to repeat that I am not particularly concerned with the individual amounts. I am interested in learning who advises the wartime prices and trade board and how they arrive at their figures.


James Garfield Gardiner: If my hon. friend will wait until we reach the proper item we will discuss that. Everything under the wartime prices and trade board comes under the war appropriation. I have before me now the newspaper containing the announcement to which my hon. friend has referred. The article states that an order in council just passed has removed the ten per cent war exchange tax and the three per cent special excise tax, and that as a result fresh fruits and vegetables may cost Canadian housewives from ten to fifteen per cent less. That comes under the Department of Finance, not under this department.


George Alexander Cruickshank: That is the minister's explanation, and I am bound to accept it.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not my explanation at all. It is a matter that does not concern this department, and I ask the Chairman to rule this discussion out of order.


George Alexander Cruickshank: All right. Am I out of order, Mr. Chairman?


Mr. GRANT:: You are always out of order.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Never mind anything from little Prince Edward Island; I will abide by what the Chair says.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member must realize that he will have ample opportunity to discuss whatever he wishes under the proper item.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Then I am out of order?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Yes, at the present time.


Heber Harold Hatfield: About five o'clock this afternoon I received a telephone message from Washington stating that there were 5,000 cars of potatoes on track in Philadelphia, New York and Boston at the close of business today, and asking me if I could open a starch factory in the state of Maine to process these potatoes. This is almost unbelievable, coming only a month after there was a shortage of potatoes all over America; but the potatoes of North Carolina and' Virginia, which had a floor of 82.25 a hundred, went below that floor to-day, and these supplies were all turned over to the government, who do not know what to do with

them. This amount represents more than a week's supply of potatoes for the country; yet in spite of that situation the wartime prices and trade board takes off the import tax on potatoes coming into Canada, just when the Ontario new crop, the Quebec new crop and the British Columbia new crop are coming on our market. Something should be done about this. More than that, a subsidy is being paid on imported potatoes to-day. I can get those potatoes for fifty cents a bag, delivered in Canada. What is to be done about it? This is a serious situation. These potatoes have to be consumed. They are new potatoes, and there are 5,000 cars on tracks at close of business to-day.


James Garfield Gardiner: Again I say that might more properly be discussed when the minister who has charge of the wartime prices and trade board is before the committee. I presume he will be in committee either on Monday or Tuesday. This is not a matter to which I can reply at the present time. I have neither the authority nor the information with which to reply.


Heber Harold Hatfield: This is a serious situation, with the new crop in Canada coming on the market.


James Garfield Gardiner: But I would say it was a very serious situation just a week or two ago on the part of my hon. friends when we had thirty carloads on this side they wanted to get over to the United States. Those thirty carloads went to the United States. We cannot have these things all one way. If we are to have arrangements to have potatoes go to the United States when we are short in Canada, probably somebody has to do something to get some back here.


Heber Harold Hatfield: I am not saying we should not let them come into Canada, but I do not think we should be paying a subsidy when this situation existed.


George Alexander Cruickshank: Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask a question about the director of marketing service, who is paid a salary of $8,500. I believe I am in order when I ask a question at this point. What are the duties of that gentleman-if he has anything to do - in connection with advising on subsidies.


James Garfield Gardiner: The director of marketing is a member of the wartime prices and trade board, and no doubt he has something to do with advising with regard to these

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matters. But if my hon. friend will wait until we reach that item we could discuss it without wasting time and controversy.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I resent the minister's suggestion that there would be any waste of time and controversy. I have been trying to get this information for about two weeks from the committee on agriculture. I made the motion originally in that committee, and my motion has not been presented to the house in the report of the committee. Why that was done, I do not know, maybe because it was said by some hon. members that if it were discussed in committee it would prevent discussion in the house. This is the motion passed by the committee on agriculture:
That its order of reference be enlarged to cover and inquire into dairying, poultry and all other lines of farm produce including live stock and the processing and marketing of all farm products.
I have no objection to the director of marketing service receiving a salary of $8,500, if we have our stuff marketed. But I do wish to know and I have been trying to find out in committee, who advises with respect to subsidies. I am not blaming the Department of Agriculture at all; I just want to know who does this work. I do not wish to be told that someone presumes some other person has something to do with it. If someone else is connected with it, I want to know who it is. I am asking that direct question. Is the director of marketing service consulted by the wartime prices and trade board when they arrive at subsidies on farm products?


James Garfield Gardiner: Subsidies put on by
the Department of Agriculture are put on by the Department of Agriculture. We have a food board which is responsible for putting on subsidies, and the director of marketing service is a member of that board. We ask the advice of our own officials who are concerned. Subsidies are put on as a result of information gathered right across Canada. However, this matter can be discussed more properly when we are discussing the war appropriation estimates.


Ernest Edward Perley: I find the details of the
expenditures for marketing service at page 66 of the estimates. It will be noted that the second item, namely that for agricultural commissioner, carries no amount. Would the minister explain that omission? Then, the amount for temporary assistance was considerably increased. Perhaps he would give us some information with respect to that.
Would the minister inform the committee what cooperation there is, if indeed there is in his opinion proper cooperation, between the Department of Trade and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture in the marketing of agricultural products? I think we are all agreed that this item having to do with marketing service is one of the most important in the estimates. When we look over the headings under this item we see that most of these expenditures pertain to domestic marketing. I believe all are agreed that every possible service coming within the power of the minister should be employed in marketing our agricultural products abroad, particularly with a view to what may take place in the period of reconstruction following the war. What cooperation is there between these two departments in marketing our agricultural products?


James Garfield Gardiner: Members of the committee will recall that about two years ago Doctor Allan, who was our agricultural commissioner, lost his life crossing from this country to Great Britain. The ship on which he was travelling was sunk. Last year there was no amount for the agricultural commissioner item. We now have appointed Mr. Robertson, who went to Great Britain recently. He has taken the position of agricultural commissioner.
Then, there are statutory increases and cost-of-living bonus to account for the increased amount for temporary assistance.


George Hugh Castleden: What are the wartime functions of this service? It will be realized that we are somewhat restricted in our marketing. This must be purely a matter of administration. What function does this group perform in war time?


James Garfield Gardiner: The item of marketing covers the economic branch, for example, which has been in existence for some years, and which makes all inquiries in connection with costs of operations of farms in districts throughout Canada. It also compiles much of the data with regard to the costs we have to make use of when making decisions in the department.
In, connection with dairy products and marketing of dairy products there are the activities in connection with grading of butter, cheese and everything of that kind which must be continued in war time just as it is in peace time. Of course there is a greater production of those commodities in war time than in peace time. Then, with respect to the subsidy on cold storage I would say that we require more cold storage on account of
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increased production, of .pork products, and increases in the production of cheese, butter and fruit. The whole farm production requires more cold storage than, ever, so that that activity is greater than it was before.
With regard to fruit, vegetables, maple products and honey, including a grant of $5,000 to the Canadian Horticultural Council, I would point out that that item is one which must be carried on just the same in war time as it :s in peace time.
In connection with the (marketing of live stock and live stock products, again we must consider grading of hogs, and all matters of that nature.
Coming to the marketing of agricultural products, including temporary appointments that may be required to be made, I would say that that is an amount voted from year to year, and one which is spent in our general publicity on activities in connection with marketing generally.


George Hugh Castleden: I notice that an agricultural economist is provided for in this vote. Has he arrived at a margin of cost in producing a bushel of wheat at a parity price?


James Garfield Gardiner: That would depend upon whose farm it was on. Could the hon. member designate the farm?


George Hugh Castleden: Could they not give it for an average farm? With all this advice available, I think something should be done toward finding out-the farmers of western Canada have not been able to market their crops; fheir wheat bins are filled with about a billion bushels more than they had' last winter-if it might not be good economy to give these farmers a little advance or loan on what they are holding. Last year in the United States they paid an advance of $1.14 a bushel, and this year they are going to pay $122. Compare that with what farmers are getting out in the west. It seems to me that this staff of economists are scarcely earning their money. This marketing service requires a vote of $1,834,000, and there are one or two things the farmers in the west would like to know.


Ernest Edward Perley: Would the minister mind
answering my question as to the cooperation that exists between the Department of Trade and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture in connection with securing markets abroad for our products?


James Garfield Gardiner: As my hon. friend well knows, at the present time there is very little opportunity to market any commodities in the countries with which we usually traded. The agreements that are made with Great

Britain for stated amounts of farm products aTe made by the Department of Agriculture with the British government through the food ministry. It is impossible for the Department of Trade and Commerce to carry on any activities on the continent, so that there is no necessity for cooperation in that direction between the two departments. The Minister of Trade and Commerce has visited most of the countries in South America, and we have trade representatives in most of those countries. Those trade representatives do everything possible to assist in the marketing of any farm products that can be exported there.


Ernest Edward Perley: Recently a food conference was held at Hot Springs, Virginia. When may we expect to have a report of what took place there?


James Garfield Gardiner: That would be under
external affairs. The Prime Minister has made a general report and has said that he will be prepared to say more when his estimates are brought down.


Gordon Graydon: Can the minister give us some idea whether the quality of our bacon being exported to Great Britain is being kept up to the standards which prevailed in prewar days and in the early period of the war? I realize, of course, that this may not be the time to be considering this particular matter, but I imagine that the question of maintaining our standards in the post-war period is under advisement by the minister. When the war draws to a close the Canadian farmer will be seeking to maintain his position in the British market, and the quality of our bacon which has been on the breakfast tables of Great Britain will be a factor which should not be lost sight of. I would condition my remarks upon this one consideration: this is not the main thing in which Canada and Britain are interested at the moment; at best it can only be a collateral consideration. We must see that the people in Britain are fed, and the question of whether our market after the war . will be maintained is a second or tertiary consideration.


James Garfield Gardiner: The question of hog grading would be a proper matter to discuss at this time. The agreements will come up later. There has been a tendency to lower the standard of the bacon going to Britain. We have been increasing the weights in an attempt to get more bacon, and the packing plants find it difficult to get the practised cutters they require to handle the amount of bacon which is passing through. We have had two suggestions made to us: first, that as soon as possible we should get down to lower

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weights and, second, that bacon should be sent over better trimmed and with fewer slashes. These things would tend to improve the quality.


Gordon Graydon: Generally speaking, our grades are not quite as high as they were?


James Garfield Gardiner: Generally speaking, they would not be high enough to compete with the bacon Denmark was sending over before the war.


Gordon Graydon: Our first consideration must be getting foodstuffs across.


Mark Cecil Senn: I should like to say something on this matter, but I will reserve my remarks about the return of the British market until the war appropriation measure is before the committee. In 1938 a cooperative marketing act was passed, and I understand that some agreements were made under its provisions. How many cooperative organizations took advantage of this act.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think the number of agreements we had at the beginning of the war was somewhere around twenty, but the fact that we have so many controls makes it difficult for some of them to operate. Of all those that have operated since the act was brought in, there has not been a loss to be assumed by the government. As the hon. member for Haldimand knows, under the act an advance is made in order that all the product that they have may be sold over a certain period. Final payment is made later on when the full returns come into the company. Our guarantees have been in the neighbourhood of sixty per cent of the market price of the commodity for the preceding three years.


Mark Cecil Senn: That is the provision of the act.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; we made it possible for them to finance at the bank and we guarantee the account. The result has been that we have taken no losses. The companies have come along in due course and asked for the permission of the government to pay out whatever additional moneys they have, and they have been paying out regularly. We have a number of companies that are still functioning.


Mark Cecil Senn: Companies or cooperative
societies?


James Garfield Gardiner: They are . cooperative associations. There is the Growers' Cooperative Association of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, a registered seed organization; the Manitoba Cooperative Honey Producers Limited, of Winnipeg, Manitoba; the Western
Canada Fur Pool Limited, of Winnipeg, Manitoba; the Ontario Fur Farmers Cooperative, Limited, of Toronto; the British Columbia Mink Breeders' Association, and the Quebec Fur Breeders' Cooperative Limited, of Quebec. The first one having to do with seed is what is generally known as the Alfalfa Association. Those are the ones operating at present.


Mark Cecil Senn: Just five of them?


James Garfield Gardiner: Six.


Ernest Edward Perley: I refer the minister to page 119 of the last report of the Department of Agriculture, where I find this:
Six agreements were approved by the governor in council under the Agricultural Products Cooperative Marketing Act, 1939, as amended, during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1942. No products were marketed under one of these agreements.
Which agreement would that be?


James Garfield Gardiner: One of the fur agreements. It is the company with head office at Winnipeg.


Mr. DECHENE:: I do not wish to delay the passage of this item, but I should like to bring before the committee a matter which can be discussed1 on this item, or perhaps on a subsequent item. I wish to bring to the attention of the committee, the minister and the government information I have recently received from my part of the country indicating the state of mind of our farmers relating to marketing which I believe should receive our attention now instead of waiting to deal with it until after the war.
I agree with the leader of the opposition that our main objective is to supply food for our armed forces and for our allies. Hon. members will note, first, that the province of Alberta is now leading all Canada in the production of hogs, having passed the province of Ontario. Saskatchewan and Manitoba are also making tremendous strides in the production of hogs and cattle.
Those who have lived for many years in the west remember well what happened after the last war. I am sorry to have to go back so far to make my point, but it will be remembered that in 1919, the year following the end of the war, we had out west one of the hardest, longest and most costly winters we ever had, not even barring last winter, and that was particularly true of the northern parts of Saskatchewan and Alberta. It will also be remembered that at that time prices of hogs and cattle, in common with prices for everything else during the last war, were inflated, as
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well as the prices of everything the farmers had to buy. An ordinary steer in the fall of 1919 would bring as high as S125.
That year, 1919, the winter set in early in the fall. I am mentioning this to show what the farmers have in mind, and I want to take back with me from this parliament and this government the assurance that the conditons which obtained at that time shall not be allowed to return. Winter set in on the 9th of October. It was twenty-five degrees below zero on the 10th of October. The weather broke a little in December, but snow remained on the ground until the latter part of April. If I remind the committee of the severity of that winter, it is to bring out the point that the cost of carrying our stock that winter was very great. I remember hay and fodder selling for as high as $75 a ton-. The farmers in my part of the country drove from 75 to 150 miles to haul in poor feed at terrific prices; but in spite of all their efforts, by the time February came, the municipalities and the government had to come to their assistance. The provincial government backed the notes of the municipal districts; the municipal districts accepted the notes of the farmers, and feed was obtained, but the result was that owners of stock went heavily in debt.
When the summer of 1920 came, that stock which could have been sold in the fall of 1919 for as high as $175 a head for a beef cattle and $140 for an ordinary steer, hogs for $17 a hundred pounds, with other prices in comparison, had to be sold for almost nothing. The market broke; the bottom dropped out of the market, and many of these steers and this stock which would have brought good prices in the previous fall died or had to be shot. It was a lamentable situation for which I blame no one, but I want hon. gentlemen to bear it in mind so that they will understand what is in the farmer's mind as to conditions that may obtain after this war unless something is done to prevent this. At that time cows went for $30 and hogs for S2.50 a hundred pounds. It was the most terrific crash in the west, not even barring that in 1931 and 1932. That is when most of our farmers went broke, through no fault of their own. They were not to blame for it, but somebody was to blame. The governments of this countiy and of the rest of the world were to blame for not being prepared to absorb the deflation which they must have known was bound to come after prices had risen so high. That is what I wish to bring before the committee.
I do not often speak in this house, and on this occasion I want to pay a tribute to one whom I consider to be the best Minister of

Agriculture this country has ever had. We have had first-class men as ministers of agriculture, but I think our own "Jimmie Gardiner", as we call him in the west, is the best of them all. From his knowledge of agriculture, his knowledge of the soil and of marketing conditions, his courage and ability, we are fortunate that in this crisis we have a man of his courage and ability to take charge of this great department. Those of us who have attended the sittings of the agriculture committee have come to realize his great ability, and the efficiency of the men with whom he has surrounded himself. Some of them were perhaps in the department before he was; I do not know; but one thing I will vouch for is that in every branch of his department, poultry, live stock, seed, farm administration, every official of the Department of Agriculture who appeared before us was competent in his field, and we heard and learned much. I wish to compliment these men upon the magnificent work they are doing. Canada is being extremely well served by the officials of the Department of Agriculture during this war.
What will be the situation after the war? I for one feel there is no danger. But the farmers are not satisfied with a letter from me or from anyone else. The French say "chat echaude craint l'eau froide,"-"the scalded cat is afraid of cold water". The terrific beating we took after the last war will never be forgotten by the present generation, and it is of no use telling the farmers that to-day we have very able men in charge of public affairs, men such as Churchill and Roosevelt, who framed the Atlantic charter to provide that there shall be freedom of marketing in this world after the war. The men we have in Canada, our Prime Minister, our Minister of Agriculture, and other ministers, are to me a guarantee that the condition that obtained after the last war will not obtain at the conclusion of the present hostilities. Unfortunately, however, we shall have to give the farmers some greater assurance than that. Recently I wrote a letter to the people in my constituency of Athabaska drawing their attention to the meeting that had been held at Hot Springs in which forty-four nations took part, along the lines of the Atlantic charter, for exactly the purpose that I have mentioned, namely, that provision will be made for the flow of goods after the war, for the distribution of foodstuffs, so that where there is a surplus in any country it will find its way to some other country that is in need of such goods. I hope it will be possible for the minister to arrange for a longer contract for hogs with

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Great Britain. Whether it is possible I do not know, but I wish it could be extended for three years at least, because I think we should be in a position to assure our farmers and live stock men that there will be stability for that length of time.
I would remind the committee that to-day the west is the greatest producer of live stock, not barring Ontario, which for many years was the banner province in this line. I repeat, that some assurance will have to be given our farmers, if we cannot make a long-term contract for bacon, for instance, that they will be allowed gradually to cut down on their vast production, so that, if we are overproducing, the shock of that overproduction will be absorbed gradually from year to year.
Let me remind the business men in this house who are personally not interested in agriculture, as I am, and as so many other hon. members here are, that there is a tremendous investment in live stock in Canada. An hon. member from one of our cities was in conversation with me the other day on this matter, and he remarked to me that anyone can look after hogs. I was telling him of the shortage in help for looking after hogs and cattle in Canada, and that was the remark he made. What a mistaken idea! To-day, in order to raise hogs successfully, the kind of hogs which we want to sell to Britain, it takes first-class ability. If I may use the term, it is a profession. It is not something that is merely haphazard. It does not consist in taking a swillpail and throwing it at the hogs. Not at all; the work of feeding live stock and hogs is a matter for experts, and it entails a vast amount of labour. Therefore I appeal to the house and the country to do whatever is necessary to help our farmers before the war is over. The war may end suddenly, and the farmers are afraid of the consequences.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Did the hon. member say the farmers were afraid the war would end suddenly?


Joseph Miville Dechene: I said, of the conditions that may result after the war is over. I have a great deal of admiration for my hon. friends over there, the friends of the poor man, at least to hear them talk. But any time anybody rises to make an appeal for these very people whom they are supposed to represent, or to propound some theory which will give them some relief, these hon. gentlemen laugh. They laugh as long as you do not propose some crack-pot theory for the farmers of Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba, whereby people are supposed to live for nothing, to get something out of the air, or some kind of policy which will permit them to keep on howling without 72537-273
working. They howl at Ontario and Quebec; they howl at everyone; they laugh when someone propounds something that is in the interests of the farming community of the west.
However, to come back to what I was saying, the farmers believe that the war may end suddenly, and if the war does end suddenly they are afraid that their markets will be gone. A survey recently taken by a farming association in the northern part of Alberta brought surprising results. Seven farmers out of ten expressed the view that if the war were to end suddenly, or to end sooner than we anticipate, or whenever it does end, they will go out of the hog or cattle business immediately. That is a mistaken idea. I realize that we must do something to prevent that. As has been explained, we have recaptured the British market. We have supplied them with the goods which they require during the war, and so we have taken back the market which we lost after the last war on account of the quality of the goods which this country allowed to be shipped to that market. It took us twenty years to restore the Englishman's trust in us in that regard. We may have fooled the people there once, but you do not fool them for very long. We fooled them once after the last war, and the government of that day was to blame for allowing to be shipped to the English market bacon of a quality that was not fit for use. As I say, we have won that market back, and we have won it with first-class goods. That is why to-day we have a rigid inspection and are keeping to the grades we have established. This is something that is of interest to those who desire to work for a living and who do not dream of an imaginary world in which everything will come to everybody without doing anything to get it. I am sure that what I am saying will appeal to those who realize that the world will be the sort of world we make by hard labour and strict attention to business.
The farmers are looking to the government for one thing and one thing only, namely, a guarantee that this market will be kept intact for them; and if, as a result of conditions that may obtain in the world, it is necessary for us to reduce our herds of live stock, I trust that this will be done in an orderly manner so as to avoid any market crash, because there are very large investments which the farmers have made in this great business. Remember that Alberta has but a small percentage of the number of farmers in Ontario, and when you come to such a province and have to market more hogs than the great province of Ontario, you will realize the extent of the work which those men have to

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do. You will realize that the men and women, the girls and boys are all helping in this business. They are willing to work overtime. They are not afraid of labour. They are satisfied with the price they are getting at present. They understand the conditions, but they want an assurance that their great investment in buildings and herds, in first-class animals, pure-bred stock, shall not be allowed to be destroyed' for want of a policy.
I say, therefore, that it may become the duty of this parliament to take action to ensure this. I for one hope and believe that there will be orderly marketing after the war and that Britain, the United States, Canada and Russia and many other countries will enter into agreements for that orderly marketing of our surplus. I have no fears so far as our surplus wheat is concerned, but there may be some months, a season or two, when some disorganization is bound to happen. That being the case, I personally believe that we should have a floor under the price of our stock so that the farmer can carry on, knowing that he will have a fair return, until the four freedoms have been established and world markets have been opened to him, so that he can sell his hogs and other live stock for the things needed at home. It may take a year or two. No one imagines that the affairs of the world will be settled in twenty-four hours after the war. No one imagines that the new order is something in the form of a blueprint to be laid on the table so that one can point to' it and say to the people, "There is your road, follow it." Long negotiations may take place, and during that time there will be need of some stability. .
I hope that at some time in the next twelve months we shall wake up one fine morning and be called upon to wave our flags to celebrate the victory of the allied nations. When that time arrives, Mr. Chairman, I want to have this matter before the house, so that we shall act all together apart from any party politics, if it is necessary to support our farmers, who have made such sacrifices during this war, working the longest hours of anybody. Next after those men who are flying to-night over Germany and Italy, next to the sacrifices and the hardships endured by those boys and by those who are travelling the ocean to-night looking for the lurking beasts of prey under the waves, and all the others in all the armed forces, the men working harder are the farmers of this country, who, though short of help and in spite of great difficulties, are doing a tremendous job.

I realize that I have taken more of the committee's time than I wanted to, but I am speaking of something which I have much at heart and something which I know appeals to every hon. member, in appealing for this class which is doing so well for us during the war, the farmers, the farmers' boys, the farm women and girls. My remote region of Atha-baska looks on the map as though it were outside the dominion. It is a vast riding. But let me tell you this, Mr. Chairman, last year Alberta led the dominion in shipments of hogs, and Athabaska was the second highest district in this respect in the province of Alberta, showing that it is in the lead in the dominion in the production of live stock. It is on behalf of these farmers I make my plea to our farmer Minister of Agriculture, a man whom I know has so deeply at heart the welfare of the people on the farms, whose heart is with the farmers of the west, where his own farm is situated, and where he has lived and worked so long on behalf' of the agriculturists. To his department and to this committee I appeal. It may be necessary to place a floor under the price of our live stock, so that our farmers will be assured of a reasonable return and will be able to reduce their herds if this should be necessary, without suffering the terrific losses and hardships of 1919 to 1921.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service.
23. Agricultural economies, $95,758.
George Hugh Castleden: What has been the relative increase or decrease in dairy production or daily marketing by provinces in the past year?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am not sure that I can give the exact figures by provinces all the way through for dairy products. I am informed the question has to do with the next item.


George Hugh Castleden: What about the
marketing of dairy herds in the United States?


James Garfield Gardiner: I will deal with that as soon as we reach the next item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service.
21). Dairy products, $379,289.
James Garfield Gardiner: As to the question oi
dairy products, in round figures the May production in the past five years has been:
Year	Pounds
1943	 32,000,000
1942	 29,000,000
1941	 33,000,000
1940	 27,000,000
1939	 28,000,000

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It will be noted that in only one year of the five has the production in May been higher than it was in May of this year.
I will now give the production from January to May inclusive:
Year	Pounds
1943	 95,000,000
1942	 78,000,000
1941	 86,000,000
1940	 74,000,000
1939	 73,000,000
In other words, the production from January to May has been higher this year than in any other of the five.
As to cheese, these are the figures for May for the past five years:
Year	Pounds
1943	 14,312,000
1942		 24,000,000
1941		 16,000,000
1940		 12,000,000
1939		 11,000,000
Production from January to May inclusive: Year	Pounds
1943		 26,000,000
1942		 52,000,000
1941		 24,000,000
1940		 24,000,000
1939	 18,000,000
It will be noted that there was just one year when the production was greater than this year from the 1st of January down to May.


George Hugh Castleden: A decrease of fifty per cent.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is a decrease there; it was double the amount in that period of months last year, namely five months, as compared with five months this year. It must be remembered that we paid a special premium last year on cheese in the winter months in order to get a high production of cheese.
year is the amount which we carried over out of the big production of last year, so that while our production up to date is down, our exports are up as compared with last year.
That gives the story about as well as I can give it from the figures I have for the whole dominion.


Mr. LOCKHART:: Has the minister the comparative butter stocks?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. But I have yet to give the milk part of the picture. For evaporated whole milk the average April production has been about 16,000,000 pounds for each of the last three years; in 1940 the amount was 12,000,000 pounds; and the year before 9,000,000 pounds, so that there has been an increase there, too.
_ As of the first of June butter stocks, excluding stocks in transit, have been as follows:
Year	Pounds
1943		
1942		
1941		
1940		
1939		
The amount this year	is the highest of the
five years.	
I come now to cheese	in storage as of the
same date.	
Year	Pounds
1943	 24,500,000
1942	 44,600,000
1941	 24,000,000
1940	 22,000,000
1939	 27,000,000
In two years during that period the storage was higher than this year.


George Hugh Castleden: Could we have a
general statement as to dairy production in the western provinces to-day as compared with other provinces?
The exports also tell a story. I have not the figures for May, but those for April during the past five years are:
Year	Pounds
1943	 6,524,000
1942	 2,630,000
1941	 991,000
1940	 2,293,000
1939	 377,000
Exports for four months, January to April inclusive, were:
Year	Pounds
1943	 35,500,000
1942	 29,800,000
1941	 3,459,000
1940	 3,315,000
1939	 3,491,000
One of the explanations of the very high export this year as compared with any other 72537-273$


James Garfield Gardiner: It is a little difficult to make the comparisons of some of these. Some estimating has to be done, because deliveries are not always where the commodity is produced. Perhaps I had better give these figures as to the production of creamery butter in two tables, so that they may be compared:
1941	1942
Prince Edward Island.
Nova Scotia	
New Brunswick	
Quebec	
Ontario	
Manitoba	
Saskatchewan	
Alberta	
British Columbia....
Pounds	Pounds
2,644,674	3,523,256
6,540,837	6,668,813
4,542,039	4,983,838
76,266,197	72,979,679
86,242,850	80,867,002
31,106,320	31,643,596
37,126.694	41,306.186
35,316,143	36,985,909
6,062,442	5,346,543
285.848,196 284,304,822

Supply-A griculture
Production this year is up all along the line, and has increased particularly in the western provinces.


Mark Cecil Senn: It is difficult to know just what questions to ask under this item, because the dairy products board, which comes under the war appropriation, also has something to do with dairying in a general way.


James Garfield Gardiner: If it would suit the convenience of the committee, I think it would help if we would just pass these items and discuss the whole matter under the other items, because they do permit of very full discussion.


Mark Cecil Senn: I am prepared to do that.


George Alexander Cruickshank: I do not know whether the minister has the information available, but my understanding is that Fraser Valley is a deficiency area in regard to milk. Is that the case?


James Garfield Gardiner: Taking in the city of Vancouver it is a deficiency area in dairy products.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	.
Marketing service.
25. Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, and grants, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $148,098.
Stanley Howard Knowles: Perhaps the minister would turn with me to page 68 of the estimates, where the details of this item are given. I have before me a copy of sessional paper No. 231D, brought down on May 13 which, among other things, lists contracts signed under the Cold Storage Act during certain indicated periods, and there is the explanation given that these subsidies are paid to cold storage companies on a definite basis. The amount of the subsidy is not to exceed thirty per cent of the amount expended and approved in the construction and equipment of warehouses. That subsidy is payable in the following manner: fifteen per cent at the end of the 3'ear in which the warehouse is constructed; seven per cent at the end of the next year; four per cent at the end of the next year, and two per cent at the end of each of the two succeeding years. Just to take a case in point, in order to indicate what I am driving at, in this return I find that the Winnipeg Cold Storage Company is to receive a total of $171,334.66. If that is the total of the thirty per cent this company is to receive, then fifteen per cent would be $S5,667.33.	At
page 68 of the estimates there are two amounts shown as being due the Winnipeg Cold Storage Company, and taking them together they make up the amount I have just mentioned, $85,667.33. If we go back to the basis of this

payment, which is to be fifteen per cent in one year, seven per cent the next year and so on, according to the details at page 68, this firm, and a number of others, received the same amount in the year 1942-43 as they are to receive in the year 1943-44. That would look as though the total is to be paid in two years, whereas the Cold Storage Act provides that it shall take five years. Could the minister explain the apparent discrepancy?


James Garfield Gardiner: The only explanation is that the money was not paid last year; that it was voted, but they had not completed the work and therefore it was not paid. The first payment amounts to fifteen per cent of the total cost, or fifty per cent of the amount we agreed to pay, and of course that payment is not made twice in two years. The payment is carried over, and that is obviously the situation here because this is almost exactly the amount shown below as not being spent last year.


Stanley Howard Knowles: There are quite a number of others in the same list. It will be noted that the same figures appear in both columns, but the minister says the explanation is the same all the way through, as I understand it.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member will note that the fifth item from the top is only one-half as much this year as it was last year. Where the figures are the same, as in the case of Trenton, the same condition prevailed; wre voted the money, but it was not spent. In the case of Trenton, their plan was passed some years ago, but they were in to see me just within the last two weeks talking about it again. Their plan was passed ; we agreed to it, but they have not gone on with the work and we have not paid the money.


Stanley Howard Knowles: No payment is made until the building is actually constructed?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is right.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Who uses these plants? Does the government store any goods in these cold storage warehouses?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; they are public warehouses. One of the conditions under which we make the grant is that the plant must be open to the public, no matter who owns it, whether it is a cooperative or an individual. It must be open to the public, and the rates charged must be satisfactory to the department.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Does the department sei the rates?

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James Garfield Gardiner: No; but we review
them and see that they are satisfactory.


Mark Cecil Senn: Would the minister state
whether the subsidies under the cheese improvement acts come under this vote?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; they come under the special items.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Gould the minister give any indication as to what profits are made by these companies? The point is that if the government pays thirty per cent of the cost of constructing these warehouses, the community as a whole has quite an interest in them.


James Garfield Gardiner: The cold storage business is rather changeable and difficult in some ways. I would say that in all probability at the present time most of them are paying, because so many farm products are being moved which must be kept in cold storage. There are times, however, when they have losses, for the reason that there is not much produce moving. For example, let us take a plant put up to. store fruit in cold storage. You may have a good year when everyone has fruit to store, and the plant will do very well. But in a year when the crop is poor, the plant is likely to lose money. I would not be in a position to say that the reason why some of these companies which have not spent their amount have not, in fact, spent it, is that they were not able to get sufficient money by any other means to go ahead and do the work they had intended to do. They have applied to us for thirty per cent. We have examined into the needs, and finally passed upon it, and said that we were prepared to pay it. If they were in a financial position where they could not get the remainder of the fund, it stands in that position until they can.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Do all companies which propose to construct plants make application for this subsidy?


James Garfield Gardiner: I would not say they all do. But they must make application before they start construction or, under the act, they are not entitled to payment. They make application to us. Our man examines into the whole condition surrounding the application, and if he agrees that the payment will be made they can proceed, with the understanding that they will get the money from the government. But some cold storages are, of course, built where they do not make application.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I believe the minister received a letter from George Little, under date of September 9, in which he said:
The farmers around here petitioned to have the much needed storage built and now find it exploited largely by cheese and butter speculators hoping to profiteer by the present war.
I believe the minister has this letter. How does he allot space in a storage warehouse for butter, cheese, apples and commodities of that kind?
The letter continues:
Not being able to procure storage means ruin to myself and many others. Should not the people's money which built this storage for fruit be demanded back, or cheese and butter be removed at once to provide storage for the fruit growers here?
How is this worked out? Does the minister allot so much space?


James Garfield Gardiner: A plant was built at Trenton to accommodate fruit growers in that area, if I am not mistaken-and I am speaking from memory. However, they have always taken in butter and other products. In a year like last year there would not be as many apples in the Trenton district as they usually produce, and I am not sure that there will be this year. But in a season when apples were not filling the storage they would naturally put in butter and cheese. There might come a time like the present when, as the figures show, we have more butter than usual in storage. When the fruit producers come to the season when they want to put in their fruit, they might find a considerable proportion of the plant occupied by butter. That is probably the reason why they have been here discussing with us again the possibility of continuing with their construction. But that becomes a matter of the company, itself, financially. I am sure these companies do try to accommodate the public to the greatest possible extent. Sometimes they might find it difficult to take in a product.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: These subsidies have been going on for some years, have they not?


James Garfield Gardiner: I imagine if a subsidy was paid on the plant in the beginning, that it was paid out long ago, because that plant has been up a long time. The application for the present subsidy was made four or five years ago. It has not been spent up to date. One reason is their difficulty in financing the remainder of it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would it not pay the government to help finance it, and to look after these buildings?
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James Garfield Gardiner: I am afraid we would be building plants all across Canada. The reason for this act in the first place was that we were receiving applications from all parts of Canada to build cold storage accommodation. The government finally determined long before my time, and I believe before the time of most hon. members in the house, to assist in this way anyone who would leave his plant open to the public. Of course they can leave it open only until it is filled. Once it is filled they cannot take in any more. With that understanding, they have gone on with their programme ever since. This government, in turn, has continued the same policy.


Lewis Elston Cardiff: I see an item of $56,082.68 for one cold storage plant at Winnipeg. Apparently one plant is known as No. 1 and the other as No. 2.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is the same thing.
They made application on one occasion and intended to increase by a certain amount. Later on, they determined to increase by more, and came back to make that representation before proceeding. Now the two will be amalgamated into one. It is the same warehouse.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service.
26. Fruit, vegetable and maple products and honey, including grant of $5,000 to Canadian Horticultural Council, $521,000.
George Alexander Cruickshank: Is this the item under which I may ask my question? If not, then which one? I should like to talk about the contract for dehydrated vegetables.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is a war appropriation item, too.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marketing service.
28. Marketing of agricultural products, including temporary appointments that may be required to be made, notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act, the amount available for such appointments not to exceed $13,000, $25,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does this cover advertising?


James Garfield Gardiner: Advertising is only a small part of it. It was a vote of $100,000 before the war, and a substantial part of it was advertising. Now only $4,000 or $5,000 of it is used for that purpose.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Now that there is a scarcity of canned products, I believe the minister's department should have up-to-date recipes for housewives, and that
tMr. G. K. Fraser.]
such recipes should be distributed throughout Canada. I mentioned last night the fact that the government should send out recipes for the preserving of fruit with as little sugar as possible. Housewives will have only a few pounds of sugar for canning purposes this year, and I am afraid a good many families will be pretty thin when spring comes round.


James Garfield Gardiner: What the hon. member has suggested is exactly what the department does. We have recipes, and there is a greater demand for them this year than there has ever been. That point was brought to my mind when the committee was discussing sugar last night. One hon. member sent me a slip on which he had written, "Why do you not rise and produce your pamphlet which tells them how to can without sugar." We have a pamphlet which tells how certain vegetables and fruits can be canned satisfactorily without sugar, for a time. We are covering that point, and doing everything we can in that direction.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The point I make is that the average housewife does not know the department has those recipes.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is announced over the radio, and in every weekly newspaper in Canada.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Many people in Canada never see a newspaper.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is broadcast over the radio, too. I do not know what else we can do. We broadcast it by radio from day to day and we put it in every weekly newspaper, telling the people that this can be done. Then, we talk about it when we are out in the country.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The wartime prices and trade board send out folders and notices to householders. Why could the minister not enclose one of his instruction sheets in those folders?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am a little bit afraid I would get into trouble with some of those economic experts who sometimes sit on our doorsteps and try to prevent us from publishing what we are now publishing.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Does the department advertise to tell the people not to eat agricultural products such as butter and pork?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Is any systematic
advertising carried on in connection with frozen fruits and vegetables? There is much of this equipment used throughout the country and many people are asking for information about it. All I could get was a small pamphlet.

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James Garfield Gardiner: We have not been putting out information with regard to that, one reason being that it is quite an expensive piece of equipment. I presume that those who make this equipment are advertising it and having it used as much as possible.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
29. Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and water storage, $2,000,000.
Mrs. NIELSEN:: Is there any possibility
of extending the areas which come under this act? While listening to the marvellous presentation made by Mr. George Spence before the committee on reconstruction, it occurred to me that there are other areas which might well be included in those covered by the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. I am thinking particularly of the northern part of Saskatchewan. I realize that at present the act covers only prairie country and was originally intended to look after the moving of people from drouth areas. The northern bush country of Saskatchewan has suffered from drouth to some degree, and a number of settlers there were apparently hurriedly settled, in some instances on land which it is doubtful they will ever be able to make pay. The country is quite swampy, and I was wondering if many of these people could not be moved to other areas where better farming land would be available. At the present time it is impossible for these people to obtain any benefits under this act, because the northern line ends just at North Battleford. The government might also consider the possibility of carrying out a project on some of the lakes and rivers, such as the Battle river, similar to what was done in northern Manitoba. In that province large areas were flooded and the raising of muskrats was encouraged. This enabled the people to get a better living.


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that last
week the committee on rehabilitation agreed to recommend to the house that the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act be applied to all Canada. Being somewhat of an enthusiast about rehabilitation work, I should like to see that done, but I do not know that it would be possible to carry it out at the preseut stage of the war. I would hope that some day the benefits which have been given to parts of three provinces might be passed on to other people in Canada. One argument for the delaying of this action is the fact that many of our men will be coming back from overseas, and much of the work which would have to be done under legislation of
this kind could be done then to good advantage. It would provide employment for men, particularly those who have been associated with engineering and other activities of that kind that go with war.
On the other hand, in Saskatchewan-it goes under another name in Alberta and also in New Brunswick-we have the northern areas plan which the hon. member for North Battleford will be quite familiar with. This plan has to do with persons who were rather hurriedly moved from the drouth areas into the northern district. Some of them were placed on bush land which cost $40 an acre to clear. Under this plan assistance was given in clearing up the land. The province of Quebec carries out a plan without any assistance from the dominion government, under which plan the same work is carried on and has been for some years. When settlers are moved into newer areas the province provides equipment similar to that used on the Alaska highway, but not quite so heavy, to clear the land and level it off so that the settler may have something to start with. This work is most beneficial and helpful to people who live in areas of that kind. It has been carried on for several years in Saskatchewan. My understanding is that most of the people who W'ere on relief at the time the plan was started are now able to carry on for themselves. The plan is still being carried on by the province without any assistance, but to a 'esser extent than it was earlier.
The way we have worked under this act is to define roughly the drouth areas. We found by experience that there was only one practical way to do this, namely, to take the river basins. We have not been able to stop short of the height of land at the northern side. Recently we drew a line from some place north of Prince Albert along the northern row of sections up to the height of land north of the North Saskatchewan river to the divide where the water goes north or comes south. I do not know whether this went into the hon. member's constituency. We followed the height of land until we reached the Alberta boundary, where we went along the height of land marking the Battle river basin and others southward to the United States boundary. In Manitoba we follow the height of land forming the boundary of the Assiniboine river basin. We follow the height of land right down to north of Winnipeg. All inside that triangle is called the drouth area and is covered by the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. I cannot say at the moment that it will be possible in the immediate future to extend it, but I
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should like to see the kind of work being carried on under this act extended right across Canada.


Mr. HENDERSON:: After chatting with some of the officials I was hoping that we might see a little increase in this vote this year, but I suppose we should be grateful that we are getting enough to carry on during war time. I would be ready to support such an increase in order to permit the construction under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act of some badly needed pastures and stock-watering projects in our part of the country. This would permit the increased stock raising required in connection with our war effort.
When speaking in this chamber on another occasion I mentioned the benefits to Canada as a whole, and more especially to the west, which had been obtained from this act which was passed by the Bennett administration and greatly extended by the present government under the able administration of the Minister of Agriculture. When the Hon. George Spence appeared before the reconstruction committee and said what had been accomplished up to date at that time and could further be done, it was considered to be the most constructive paper given before the sittings of that good committee. He said that of the 3,000,000 acres of poor land broken during the first world war which should not have been broken, one and a quarter million acres are now included in sixty-seven community pastures, which during last season had taken care of over 65,000 head of stock. These pastures are not yet up to capacity. They are managed locally and nearly all are beginning to pay their way. Some have a small sinking fund put away for repairs and rebuilding at a later time.
Plans are also in the hands of the engineers to convert another one and a half million acres into seventy-three more of these pastures which are badly needed. Many head of stock are now turned away since the pastures are getting pretty well filled with stock by farmers adjoining the present pastures. Those from a distance cannot get their stock into these pastures. More than 20,000 small stockwatering projects have been completed, assisted by engineering advice and by payment of part of the cost under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, and there are many more applications for such funds.
Many of these dug-outs have been so constructed as to irrigate gardens during the dry season. I may say that the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act has assisted with several small irrigation projects where fruit, vegetables and fodder are very successfully grown in dry

seasons, and there are more applications for these works which are held up for the duration of the war.
When the war is won, Mr. Chairman, I would be bold enough to suggest that the name of this act be changed to the Canadian Farm Rehabilitation Act, an act to serve all Canada; to assist in the draining of swamp lands in the maritime provinces and rehabilitate Ontario and Quebec farms and the Kamouraska cut-over lands, and rehabilitate burnt-over timber land. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, the people of the west are prepared to cooperate in this and other work of this kind. But to rehabilitate western Canada we must have water, which has been referred to' by the Hon. George Spence as "liquid gold on the prairies".
Several years ago we formed in our community the Saskatchewan-Alberta Irrigation Association along the border of the two provinces, and gave a great deal of study to this matter. On one occasion I took a surveyor and engineer, a Mr. Campbell, on an extended trip at our own expense to the eastern irrigation project in Alberta, where we counselled with Mr. Gray, who was the manager, and with his engineers who had made such an outstanding success of their project.
We secured a great deal of valuable information generally and also with regard to the much talked of "William Pearce, North Saskatchewan river stock watering scheme" which, of course, is much different from what we saw at Brooks, for Brooks is strictly an irrigation project. They can and do grow everything and operate a canning factory successfully. A wonderful good-sized town has grown up there and several small industries are flourishing. Some of the people from our part of Saskatchewan have moved in there, made their homes and are doing quite well.
We then proceeded with Mr. Campbell to Stettler to investigate storage possibilities at Buffalo lake and were well satisfied that there were huge storage possibilities both at Buffalo lake and Sullivan lake, at Hanna, Alberta, where 75,000 acres of land could be brought under irrigation. We then followed the natural flow of the water as set out by Mr. William Pearce himself in his papers. That is down Sounding creek, where the early settlers cut wood; thence down Eye Hill creek, entering Saskatchewan at Cosine, which is in the constituency that I have the honour to represent.
Eye Hill creek runs to Manitou lake, near Unity, where more storage could be provided.

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Thence, with a little cutting you could bring water into Tramping lake, which is a very large lake, thirty miles in length and spoken of by Mr. Pearce and the P.F.R.A. engineers as having huge storage possibilities which would serve a large area in this district.
The engineers' reports point out that over 100.000 acres in the Kindersley, Glidden to Eston district can be irrigated and that three-quarters of a million acres in the Elrose, Rosetown to Saskatoon district could also be irrigated.
There are over 56,000.000 tons of snow water from mountains, Mr. Chairman, running away into lake Winnipeg and Hudson bay every day over and above what is being used for irrigation and power in Alberta. It would be a huge undertaking; but if these 56,000,000 tons of snow water which run away each day were stored-and there is storage-and then spread over our farms, if only a few acres on each farm, we would be doing more to rehabilitate western Canada than could be done in any other way that has been proposed to date. Instead of losing our people we would be able to make homes for more. While the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act has been and is doing good work, I should like to see this work extended and take in the Pearce plan at least. The Pearce plan could be gone ahead with at a reasonable cost of a few million dollars and would provide water for stock watering and for mixed farming. That would call for only a few million dollars to carry the water through the natural channels at a small cost per annum. But for further rehabilitation an expenditure of an additional, say eighty million dollars or, as the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) has suggested, 100 to 150 million dollars would supply water, storage, canals et cetera to irrigate about one and a half million acres and also provide power for secondary industries. We could grow fruits and vegetables, feed and fodder for stock, build homes and keep off relief.
Before closing, I desire to thank the hon. member for Davenport for what he has advocated in this house and on the public platforms in support of this expenditure and great undertaking for western Canada. He has been very fair and., Mr. Chairman, I am sincere when I say that with his knowledge and understanding he should be honoured with the degree of doctor.
I also desire to thank the minister and his P.F.R.A. officials for the information they have furnished to the Saskatchewan-Alberta Irrigation Association before war was declared, at which time we folded up our organization
for the duration, our splendid secretary, Mr. Galbraith joined the army. He is now serving his country overseas. But I more especially thank Major Duncan Stewart, K. C. of Calgary, for the assistance he has given me, which includes a letter from the late Senator Burns as well as papers and blueprint plans which belong to the estate of the late William Pearce, lent by Mr. Pearce's son. In his letter Senator Burns refers to himself as a converted old-timer. The letter is written to Colonel J. F. Dennis, formerly of the Canadian Pacific railway land department. I have received a good deal of valuable information from these papers.


Percy Chapman Black: This is an appropriation in which the eastern farmers are interested, more particularly those at the head of the bay of Fundy. The special committee on reconstruction and rehabilitation made a recommendation that the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act should be enlarged to enable work to be done all over Canada. I believe this recommendation was made with special reference to the marsh lands at the head of the bay of Fundy. The committee took considerable evidence. The Hon. J. A. McDonald, Minister of Agriculture and Marketing of Nova Scotia, came and gave evidence before the committee. The minister of agriculture of New Brunswick was prepared to come and will probably still come. Resolutions have been passed unanimously by the legislatures of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, by boards of trade and other bodies asking that the federal government assume responsibility for the reclaiming of these marsh lands, so that they will not revert to floating bogs, because the drainage channels become blocked, or inundated by the sea, owing to breakage of dikes and aboideaux.
I know from statements of the minister that he is personally sympathetic with this proposal. I know that his deputy minister, Doctor Barton is sympathetic, and I know that the director of experimental farms, Doctor Archibald, has for years shown his interest. Experiments ,have been carried on at the experimental station under Mr. Baird at Nap-pan, at the head of the bay of Fundy, showing the productivity of these lands when properly cultivated. Land that is not drained and cultivated will grow only half a ton of the poorest class of hay, while land of the same character, within 100 feet, can be made to produce hay of the very best quality, yielding from three to four tons per acre.
Recently there has been great interest on the part of the marsh owners, who have appointed

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representatives of march bodies, who are prepared to come to Ottawa as a delegation from the head of the bay of Fundy from New Brunswick, from my county, and the county represented by the Minister of Finance. This delegation is waiting for word as to when they may come to Ottawa in order to make representations, so that an appropriation may be made in order that work may be undertaken this year.
It is necessary that the work be commenced now if these lands are to be made available for farmers who come back after the war or are discharged from war industries, because it will take some years before the full benefits are derived.
There has been expended under this act up to 1942, a total of $14,547,875 for prairie farm rehabilitation, and quite an important part of that work is the control of water for the benefit of the farmers of the prairies. All those interested in agriculture in Canada are in sympathy with this. There was appropriated last year $2,000,000, and we are now dealing with a vote of $2,000,000 for the current year. We at the head of the bay of Fundy ask that this apply to our marshlands. I believe that the minister is in sympathy with the proposal, and I would ask that the appropriation be made available this year, or otherwise that an additional appropriation of at least a quarter of a million dollars be provided in order that the work may be started at once.
There are other special appropriations for the west, such as $500,000 under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, as voted last year; an appropriation of $28,175,000 to provide for wheat acreage reduction payments, and so on. There was also an appropriation last year of $1,950,000 to provide for assistance to encourage the improvement of cheese and cheese factories, and another appropriation of $50,000, totalling last year $32,675,000. Not one dollar of that was expended in eastern Canada. This year the estimates under the same headings total $8,390,000. Not one dollar of last year's vote and not a dollar this year is to be applied under this act to eastern Canada unless the minister adopts the recommendation of the committee and has this act extended or makes a special appropriation in order that work on the marshlands may be undertaken at once.
When the minister sets his heart upon a project such as this in the administration of his department he has usually been successful, and I believe the interest he has shown in previous years, and the interest he has now in this matter, will induce him before the
[Mr. P. C. Black.:
end of the session to arrange for an appropriation in order that work may be undertaken. It is proposed that the work be done mainly by machinery so as to reduce man-power requirements to the minimum. It is necessary that the main river outlets be opened up; that the drainage channels which have filled up with silt and vegetation be cleaned out; that machinery be provided which can be used for opening the smaller drainage ditches, and that the dikes and aboideaux that have gone down or weakened in recent years be restored.
The departments of agriculture in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are, I believe, prepared to make some contribution toward this work. These marsh lands are the most fertile lands in all Canada. They attracted our early settlers, and if they are not reclaimed, agriculture as we have known it in that part of Canada might as well be abandoned, as the production from these lands is used to build up the fertility of farm uplands which should carry a hundred head of stock where now there is hardly one. One acre of marshland properly cultivated involves the cultivation of five acres of upland. The production of live stock, fat cattle, and dairy products would reestablish agriculture as it was in former years, and, I believe, to an even greater extent.
I am appreciative of the attitude of the Minister of Agriculture in previous years with respect to this proposal. I believe that he is as sympathetic as ever, and it is the opinion of farmers in eastern Canada that, if he is really determined, an appropriation will be made available this year.
I do not wish to take my seat without expressing my appreciation on behalf of eastern Canada and especially on behalf of the marsh owners of the sympathetic consideration which has been given to .this proposal by all the members of the committee, including those from western Canada, who have benefited by these large expenditures, by hon. members on the committee from central Canada, and by the hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Henderson) who preceded me this evening. I make this appeal to the minister, to the government and to the members of this committee that an appropriation be made available this year, so that some work will be undertaken to reclaim these fertile marsh lands at the head of the bay of Fundy.


James Garfield Gardiner: Two legislatures, those of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, passed unanimous resolutions, I understand, asking that something should be done in connection with the marsh lands. I have had communications with both of them, and I understand

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they are sending a delegation here, representing both provinces, to discuss the matter with us. I hope that something will come out of the meeting at that time.


Percy Chapman Black: Delegates have been appointed. I understand that representatives of the marsh areas of Westmorland and Cumberland, and the Annapolis valley, and perhaps others, are waiting for instructions when they may come.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. My correspondence was with the two ministers of agriculture of the provinces, and I understand they are to come. As has been said, we have had the matter under consideration for some time, and a certain sum of money has been worked out as the amount which would make possible the carrying through of the scheme, but up to the present that amount of money has not been placed in the estimates, and I am not in a position to say to-night whether it will be in the supplementaries this year or not. But it is still under consideration.


Percy Chapman Black: If this act were amended so that it would apply to all of Canada, this appropriation could be apportioned-


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, but I think it would be a simpler matter at present to deal with this project alone rather than take up a larger matter. To do so would, I am afraid, delay rather than help it.


John Horne Blackmore: The proposal that the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act be changed to constitute it a Canada Farm Rehabilitation Act commends itself to me. I have felt ever since I came to this chamber that Canada must be looked upon as one great united economy. Anything that injures any part of it injures every part, and conversely, anything that helps any part helps all Canada. I believe that a sympathetic ear should be lent to the voice of a representative from any part of this dominion, and I believe that the appropriation for this kind of work should be greatly increased. I have contended that now for some years.
I should like to mention to the minister one project which vitally concerns my particular constituency, the project known as the Lethbridge southeast water conservation project. Members of the committee perhaps will have had it brought to their attention in times past. Down in the southwestern corner of Alberta there are two rivers known as the St. Marys river and the Milk river. Both of these rivers are international; that is, they flow on each side of the border. The waters have been divided between Canada and the United 72537-274J
States, but so far Canada has failed to use the portion of water which was allotted to her. It is well that members of the committee should have in mind that it is a well understood principle that in cases like this, where the interests of two nations are concerned, if one nation fails to use to advantage its share of water there is a likelihood that it will lose its right to that water, and the nation which has been using its share to advantage will have a claim on the water which is not being used by the other nation. If this principle were applied in the case to which I refer, Canada would lose very heavily and lose for all time.
The Lethbridge southeast water conservation project has been examined time and again. Recommendations were made as far back as 1921, and before, that something concrete and definite should be done, and done without further delay. But after the last war the whole matter was allowed to rest, because the governments in power said, "We have not the money; we must retrench now and pay for the war." The result was that for a generation this project was allowed to remain neglected. Now if history is to repeat itself we are likely to find a similar thing. It is an easy enough matter for us to rise in our places in this chamber and assert that as soon as this war is over, somehow or another there will be a boundless amount of money, now going to the war, available for use in rehabilitation. Unless the system under which we are working changes, no such thing as that will happen; as soon as the war is over we shall have hon. members rising in this house and contending that we must retrench and tighten our belts and pay for the war. The result will likely be that all of these projects will simply become day-dreams.
I just want to draw the attention of the minister, as emphatically as I can in a short time, the need for looking after the Lethbridge southeast water conservation project. The minister understands this well; he has been over the ground, and I believe he has shown great sympathy in the matter, but is restrained largely by financial consideration from taking action. I have contended privately before the minister and in public that I do not believe financial considerations should be allowed to interefere with the development of this project. Only $15,000,000 are involved, and 345,000 acres of the finest land in the Dominion of Canada would be brought under irrigation as a result of the development of that project.
If the findings of the international food committee mean anything more than the paper they are written on; if they really do mean that we are going to need a lot of food after the war, and we are going to use the food for
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the benefit of the people, obviously the food producing areas of this country should be developed to a high degree. There should therefore be no justification for delay in the matter of constructing the key dams and reservoirs of this great project. Four million dollars would be sufficient to build the main reservoir, which is known as the St. Marys reservoir, situated near Spring Coulee on St. Marys river in my constituency. It would take probably two or three years to build that reservoir even if we commenced in 1943. I contend that we should commence in 1943, not just to investigate and look over the ground and dream of what we are going to do, but should do something in 1943.
There is one other aspect of the question which is quite serious and which is becoming more urgent all the time. They are having dry weather in my constituency in southern Alberta and, as the hon. member for Medicine Hat pointed out this evening, they are having dry weather in his constituency as well. When dry weather comes in these constituencies it is an exceedingly serious matter. The present facilities for supplying water to the land now under irrigation in four major irrigation projects in my constituency are not sufficient. The water needed in times of stress, such as we are passing through now, would be available if the St. Mary's reservoir were constructed, and I think it only fair and just to the people in that area that they should be provided with ample water in time of need. This constitutes another very strong reason for proceeding at the earliest possible moment with the construction of reservoirs in connection with this water conservation project.


Ernest Edward Perley: This item calls for the expenditure of $2,000,000; this year there is neither an increase or a decrease. Reference has been made to the fact that the government may consider the suggestion made by the reconstruction committee that the provisions of this act be extended to all Canada, and some hon. members have expressed themselves as being favourable to that step. I have been wondering what the minister's idea is in that regard, and if he really means to give that suggestion favourable consideration. Personally I would not be very anxious to see this act extended to the whole of Canada, because I see the possibility that it might become a racket.
When this act was passed in 1934-I believe this is the eighth year it has been in operation -it was intended to assist the farmers in certain areas in western Canada where there had been drouth for four or five years. The situation in certain parts of Saskatchewan was very serious, and this act was intended to

rehabilitate those areas. It also outlined certain principles. The act was designed to assist farmers to conserve moisture, to store water and to work out schemes for the better utilization of land. The main purposes for which the act was passed were good. A great deal has been done by the present government, and I give credit to. the minister for being most anxious to carry on the projects that were commenced and to support the principles outlined in this measure, but I think in some instances these projects have been developed to a very much greater extent than was ever intended.
Before we are finished with this item I hope the minister will* give us a great deal more information with respect to water storage schemes, pastures that have been established and particularly some of the dam projects. To give the committee some idea of what might happen, I asked for a return in February and another in March to show the costs of certain projects being carried on in the Qu'Appelle valley which, I may say, is the boundary between the constituencies of the Minister of Agriculture and myself, so that these projects to which I have reference now might be called our projects. I find that certain surveys have been carried on in that valley during the last two years, on which some fifty-three people have been employed at a cost of something over $50,000. The returns also show that three dams are under construction, to cost approximately $127,000 on completion. But I do not think we are obtaining value for the money being expended on these dams. The one at Round lake flooded certain areas that were used by the Indians for haying purposes, and they have practically lost the entire use of that land. I should like the mnister to tell the committee if those Indans were reimbursed for the damage done and the loss sustained, and what agreement was reached with the Indian affairs branch or the men on the reserve in that connection. I have looked over that situation, and considerable loss has been occasioned.
Perhaps the minister would give a more or less detailed statement in connection with this work, because it is of interest not only to me but to other hon. members from the northern part of Saskatchewan, who know something of what the building of these dams has meant. No doubt the minister has a copy of this return, so that I need not read the questions I asked and the information that was given, but I should like a little further information which he might supply at a later date. I would ask the minister to be good enough to give me the home addresses of the fifty-three men employed in these survey parties.

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James Garfield Gardiner: 
Ernest Edward Perley: That is at the end of the lake?


James Garfield Gardiner: At the end of all the lakes. Starting at Buffalo lake, there is some between there and Lumsden. Then, below Lumsden there is some between there and the most westerly of the Qu'Appelle lakes. I do not think there is any between the most westerly lake and Echo lake. There is not much between Echo lake and Katepwa. But there are some lands there that can be irrigated. Then, down below Katepwa lake, between that and Crooked lake, there is land which could be irrigated.


Ernest Edward Perley: Not very much.


James Garfield Gardiner: Sufficient to provide
each farmer along that area with hay land from which he could be a producer of hay. Probably in some places there is much more than would be necessary for the individual farmer who may be there, and it might necessitate the re-dividing of some of the land.
The other surveys which have been made on the streams running into the Qu'Appelle have been for the purpose of determining
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whether a storage basin can be found up at the head or along these streams in order that water so stored may be utilized to irrigate lands on lower levels or replenish the waters of the various lakes. Generally speaking, that is the plan and, as has been pointed out, $50,000 has been spent on the laying out of the work which has to do with determining what can be done with the land in that particular area. There have been other sums, such as $20,000 and $40,000, on different dams put in along those areas in order to control the water in the lakes.
In a season like this the water does rise to heights which will cause damage, unless the land around the edge is protected by riprapping against wash-outs; and there has been some rip-rapping done on these areas. That, generally speaking, is the nature of the work carried on. I think it is looked upon as something which will assist greatly the people in those areas, if we again have the drouths we had in the past.


Ernest Edward Perley: What about the settlement of Indians? I understand that on hay land from which the Indians cut 300 tons of hay last year they cannot cut any this year.


James Garfield Gardiner: There were some areas up there last year which, even if we had not done anything, would have been flooded to a greater extent than they had been in many years. The last time I drove through Fort Qu'Appelle the dam was not holding back the water. In the first place there was not anything in the dam to hold back the water. The water was running within three feet from the top of the works. All of this meant that no water backed up behind that. The dam had nothing to do with it. The -water was there because this was an exceptionally wet season this year. When the works are completed the land on the reserve to the west may be flooded. I do not know whether that is the reserve the hon. member is speaking about.


Ernest Edward Perley: No; it is at Round lake.


James Garfield Gardiner: The work at Round lake may have something to do with the flooding there. But there will be land in the reserve to the west of Echo lake which will have to be taken over by rehabilitation from the Indian affairs branch if the works are completed as advised by the engineers. If any lands are flooded and remain flooded as a result of the work which has been put in, arrangement is made either to get an easement in connection with those lands, or to take them over and make them part of the plan.


Ernest Edward Perley: I understand the Indians on the reserve are dissatisfied with the arrangement which has Been made. I know the situation well, and I think they have had an unfair and unreasonable deal.


James Garfield Gardiner: I will look into it.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry?


Ernest Edward Perley: Oh, no, we want more information. For instance, we have not yet discussed the matter of pastures. A large number of pastures have been established, and a great amount of stock is carried in them.
Before we leave this matter of water, may I refer to an article in a western paper, namely, the Regina Leader Post, headed ."Water for tw'enty thousand acres; project will stabilize agriculture". This has reference to the Swift Current project. Would the minister give us a little information respecting the Swift Current project, because the matter is headlined in the Leader Post to-day. It states that
20,000	acres of land will be irrigated when the project is completed.


James Garfield Gardiner: The Swift Current area extends on the river from south of Swift Current to Swift Current, and then east as far as Rush lake, which is a considerable distance east of Swift Current. In that area there are between 30,000 and 40,000 acres of farm land which can be irrigated, and there will be sufficient water. One of the dams is completed, and holding water now; and the other is partly completed. There will be sufficient water to irrigate that particular land. The section most affected by drouth was in the neighbourhood of Swift Current, and we have carried on irrigation work at that experimental farm for some time. That land can all be irrigated from the two dams.
The main difficulty we have had up to date is that we did not dig a ditch last year to drain Rush lake and keep it drained. There was some water In it this year as a result of the great fall of water we have had. Last year the whole lake bottom was in crop and we grew a considerable part of the flax, that is, the government grew it, under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, to supply seed for this year. We grew oats and barley as well and had very good crops. I do not think there is any exaggeration in what the Leader-Post says. I read the article. There is a possibility of irrigating 30,000 or 40,000 acres of land. We are not taking over the land; we are merely putting in the ditches and dams and making the water available to irrigate so many acres to each farmer. Each farmer will pay for the water he uses to irrigate his hay land. In the years that lie behind us we have brought hay

Supply-Agriculture
from as far east as Three Rivers, Quebec. This happened in 1937, and we now hope to be able to produce the needed hay on this land.


Ernest Edward Perley: Were any of the dams
washed out this year on account of the extra flow of water?


James Garfield Gardiner: There was one at Willows on Lake of the Rivers in Saskatchewan. We have had trouble with this one on two different occasions. I have been down to look at it personally. We may have to abandon it, but we have attempted to store water there. With the amount of water there was in the streams this year w-e have been surprised that we have not lost more dams.
We have fifty-seven pastures operating and ten under construction. I may say that so far as these pastures go, the treasury is not concerned after they are once constructed. The capital cost is put up by the treasury and that will stand for some twenty years at least. The posts that are used are creosoted and should be good for that length of time. Fees are paid by the farmers who put cattle or horses into the pasture, and these are more than sufficient to pay the cost of operation since , there is a surplus of $38,215.01. In this connection, we have three ideas in mind. First, there is the community pasture where the farmers around the pasture are organized. They have their own association which controls the number of cattle that may be put on the pasture by each farmer and also it takes care of the fees. We appoint a manager who becomes a secretary of the association. As I have just pointed out, the fees are more than sufficient to pay the operating costs including the salaries of the managers.
In addition to that, we have the reserve pastures that I spoke of before the dinner hour. These are large areas, some hundred thousand acres in extent. We have fenced them to keep out stock in the good years and they will be available in drouth years. They grew grass as abundantly as before live stock ran over the country at all. Conditions in that section of the province are such that, with water provided, much of the live stock can run out through the winter. Then there is another form of pasture which is associated with an irrigated area. This is a community pasture in which lands are irrigated outside the pasture and produce the fodder and grain for the live stock which runs on the pasture in the summer time. AH these have been operating successfully, and I do not think the neighbourhood would like to be without them in the future.


George Hugh Castleden: Could the minister
give us a break-down of this $2,000,000?


James Garfield Gardiner: The break-down is as
follows:
Salaries, including permanent and
temporary	 $341,802
Wages	 336,000
Cost-of-living bonus	 86,000
Equipment	 110,500
Freight and express	 14,000
Miscellaneous	 8,700
Printing and stationery	 19,486
Supplies and materials	 127,256
Telephones, telegrams and postage 11,568
Travel	 171,220
Rent	 45,350
Buildings and lands	 388,025
Financial assistance	 339,500
The last item is the assistance given to farmers to dig dug-outs and build small dams.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
30. Prairie Farm Assistance Act-administration, $250,000.
George Hugh Castleden: How much was paid
out last year, and how much was collected under the one per cent arrangement?


James Garfield Gardiner: No money was paid out last year. I have not the figures for this year by itself, but the total levy collected in 1941-42 was $2,500,000. The total amount down to June 30, 1942, was $6,392,000. That is what was collected, and there has been approximately $2,000,000 since then. The total amount paid up to date is about $30,000,000,, and the total amount collected prior to this year was a little over $6,000,000. We have paid out $5 for $1 collected. For the year 1942 there will be none paid out, and we hope to come somewhere in the neighbourhood of $9,000,000, by the time the year's collections are in.


George Hugh Castleden: Is it expected that
there will be anything to pay out this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: There was nothing paid out last year, and the crop this year looks as though we shall have a repetition of what
happened last year.


George Hugh Castleden: There is an area in
Alberta where they are not going to get a crop. Does this amount of $500,000 show as not having been paid?


James Garfield Gardiner: The amount paid out
is not shown here. This $250,000 is administrative costs. We shall have to have a supplementary estimate for the amount that is paid out, if any.


George Hugh Castleden: Was the $500,000 administrative costs?
Supply-A gricult ure


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; there was a considerable amount paid out last year for the preceding year.


Victor Quelch: Is there not some way in which the payment of the bonus to the widow can be expedited? There are cases where payment has been held up for a couple of years until the man's estate is settled. I spoke of this a year ago, and the minister said then that an amendment would be introduced whereby it would be possible to pay a bonus to the widow immediately if she were in necessitous circumstances.


James Garfield Gardiner: We had no authority under the regulations as they were to make a payment to the beneficiary of the estate when the person who had a claim had died, but we did go ahead and make some payments after considerable difficulty. But a change has been made in the regulations within the past three or four weeks which now makes it possible for us to make the payment automatically.


Victor Quelch: There is another matter to which I wish to refer. Subsection 5 of section 8 of the regulations reads:
8. No person shall be considered to be a farmer under the act unless:
5. If residing with a parent or a brother, he is of the full age of twenty years and operates the farm as a separate unit, and the farm consists of at least a quarter-section of land.
I can understand the need for such a provision in the regulations to prevent a large farmer from dividing his farm up among his children in order to benefit by a larger bonus payment, but here is the case of a son living with his father in a town. The father is not a farmer himself but rents his farm to his son, who farms it and makes a good job of it. That boy should be granted the bonus; but he has been denied it on the ground that he is only nineteen years of age. It seems to me that we should try to encourage these young people rather than discourage them from carrying on that type of work. This is no case of the father trying to get a larger bonus because he is not farming at all; he is renting his farm to his son, and the son is denied the bonus on the ground that he is a minor living with his parents. I do not think the intention of the regulation was to deny that boy the bonus. The intention was to prevent a farmer from dividing up a large farm in order to get a larger bonus. The case to which I refer is that of Jack Turton of Consort, Alberta.


James Garfield Gardiner: There has been some difficulty. In this particular case he would be denied the bonus because he was living in the town and not on the farm.


Victor Quelch: No; he was denied it
because he was a minor.


James Garfield Gardiner: There would be the two
reasons.


Victor Quelch: No; I will read the letter from the superintendent, Department of Agriculture, Edmonton. He writes:
With regard to the above-mentioned claim, we wish to advise that owing to the fact that Jack Turton was not of the full age of twenty years when filing the_ cultivated acreage report, he cannot be considered for payment under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act.
There have been two other letters, and in none of the letters is the question raised of the young man's living in town. He is denied the bonus on the ground that he is a minor living with bis father. Perhaps I had better go into the matter further with the minister at some later time, but where there is no question of a father dividing up his farm among his children in order to get a larger bonus, when his son rents the farm from him and is making a good job of it, does not the minister agree he should be entitled to the bonus? Why deprive him of it just because he is nineteen years of age?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
31. To provide for wheat acreage reduction payments, for administration expenses in connection therewith, and for temporary appointments that may be required notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act $4,265,000.	'
George Hugh Castleden: What is the actual wheat acreage reduction by provinces for 1943, as compared with 1942, and what is the acreage in coarse grains by provinces in 1943?


James Garfield Gardiner: For Manitoba, in summer-fallow, coarse grains and grass the acreage was 1,400.000 in 1941, and the amount paid out, $4,430,292; Saskatchewan, summer-fallow, coarse grains and grass, 5,687,000 acres; amount paid out, $19,930,898. The farmers payments amounted to $17,300,000. and the landlords payments to $2,600,000. In Alberta, summer-fallow, coarse grains and grass, 3,147,000 acres; amount paid out, $10,438,400. The farmers payments in Manitoba were $49,000; in Saskatchewan, $159,000, and in Alberta, $86,000. The acreage for Manitoba in coarse grains, summer-fallow, grass and rye in 1942 was 1,656,000, and the amount paid out was

The late Hon. R. J. Manion
in round figures $3,667,000; in Saskatchewan,
5,287,000	acres in coarse grains, summer-fallow, grass and rye, and the amount paid out, $11,611,000; in Alberta, 2,703,000 acres, and the amount paid out, $593,000. The number of farmers paid was 32,000 in Manitoba, 89,000 in Saskatchewan, and 53,000 in Alberta. The 1943 figures are not yet available. The acreage for 1943 is' estimated at about 10,000,000 acres less than in 1940.


George Hugh Castleden: Is there an estimate of that by provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have not the figures by provinces.


George Hugh Castleden: About the same.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Monday, July 5, 1943