1943-06-04

CONDITIONS UNDER NATIONAL EMERGENCY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):: May I
direct a question to the Minister1 of Labour. Perhaps it will do if he answers it on Monday, should he not be able to do so to-day. In view of the national fuel emergency declared by the Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago, will the Minister of Labour give to the house an explanation as to how the emergency has been cared for over the past couple of weeks and how the situation stands at the present time?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I shall be glad to do that,
though we have not had much time after the policy was decided upon to create an organization to handle it. My hon. friend can rest assured that they are moving with expedition.


Ernest George Hansell: Monday or Tuesday will
be all right.



PERMANENT ORGANIZATION TO PLAN AND DISTRIBUTE GLOBAL RESOURCES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLD WELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: I have a question to ask with reference to a newspaper report by Mr. J. F. Sanderson of the Canadian Press, appearing in yesterday's newspapers, that the united nations food conference has agreed to establish a permanent organization to. plan and coordinate global food resources. Will Canada be represented on the interim commission that is being set up? If so, who is to represent this country on the commission?
Sugar Allocation


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I should like at an
appropriate moment to make a statement with reference to the food conference, and perhaps my hon. friend will permit me to do so some day next week.



INQUIRY AS TO FOOD IN STORAGE IN VICTORIA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):: In the Globe and Mail of this morning the following item appeared:
Dr. Fred W. Routley, national commissioner of the Canadian Red Cross Society, said yesterday the goods in storage at Ogden Point Pier warehouse, Victoria, was not the property of the society, but belonged to the federal government. The Victoria Times yesterday said considerable piles of foodstuffs, originally destined for the Red Cross Society in Hong Kong for distribution among Canadian and allied prisoners of war had been in storage for more than a year and "nobody seems to know what to do about it."
To whom do these foodstuffs belong; what do they consist of; if they are not shipped out of Canada for use by our armed forces, Will they be used by our armed forces in Canada?


Mr. SPEAKER:: That is a question for
the order paper.



SITUATION IN REGARD TO RHUBARB IN WESTERN CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: I am in receipt of a telegram from some merchants in Weyburn, Saskatchewan, indicating a condition which may be prevalent in other cities of western Canada. They report that rhubarb is going to waste because there are no sugar permits available and consequently housewives are unable to make use of the rhubarb either for canning or for cooking purposes. Will the minister undertake to see that steps are taken immediately to deal with this unfortunate situation?


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: I regret that I cannot give the undertaking. I have gone very carefully into the question of rhubarb since I received notice of this question, and I find that provision was made for one pound of sugar per capita of the population of Canada for the purpose of cooking rhubarb alone. That one pound of sugar would be sufficient to cook five pounds of rhubarb, which would mean twenty-five pounds for a family of five. If more sugar
I Mr. Coldwell.]
is required for this purpose it will have to come out of the canning allotment or out of the ordinary sugar ration.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The complaint is not that sugar is lacking but that the permits are not available. This is an important item of food for many people on the prairies.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, I would like to revert to my answer to the hon. member for Weyburn. I understood that he was asking for an increase in the sugar ration, but if it is merely a matter of administration I shall be glad to look into it at once.



POSSIBLE INCREASE IN ALLOWANCE FOR CANNING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. NORMAN J. M. LOCKHART (Lincoln) : I should like to offer a suggestion to the Minister of Finance which he may consider and perhaps reply to at some future time. In the fruit growing areas there is considerable misgiving as a result of the late season. If the weather should become very warm the fruit will ripen rapidly and perhaps will become a drug on the market because of the impossibility of shipping it all at once. These circumstances are well known to the producers of fruit. Perhaps some time later the minister would make it clear to the housewives whether, in the event of an emergency of this kind, there may be some slight increase in the sugar allowance for canning, or whether in his opinion the maximum has been reached, in the light of the information available to him.
James Lorimer Ilsley: I shall take up that matter with the wartime prices and trade board, and if any change is to be made I shall be glad to announce it in the house.



ALLOCATION OF SUPPLIES FOR CANADA AS COMPARED WITH THE UNITED STATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: I think the Canadian public ought to be given some understanding as to the basis of the allocation of sugar supplies for Canada as compared with the United States.	Sugar bowls are
placed on the dining-room tables in leading hotels in the United States, and one may help himself as he did in days gone by. In Canada that condition does not obtain. Are we beholden to the United States for the quota

Wheat
we get? What is the basis of allocation? Let us understand it. Are we getting the equivalent per capita of what the people in the United States are getting? It seems to me there is some discrimination'-I do not suggest it is unjustified, but I do not know. The Canadian public ought to know about the basis of allocation.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is a reasonable request.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would not have made it if I had- not thought it was.



FISH PRODUCTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is the Minister of Fisheries in a position to reply to my question of May 27 respecting British Columbia herring?


Hon. ERNEST BERTRAND (Minister of Fisheries):: Mr. Speaker, we have allowed 85,000 cases of herring to be distributed in Canada.



MEAT BOARD


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. C. SENN (Haldimund):: I wish to address a question to the Minister of Agriculture. It is based on an article appearing in this morning's Journal, headed "Meat Board to Control Distribution". It contains a paragraph that reads:
The Canadian bacon board has been reconstituted as a meat board, with power to control distribution of all meat, Minister Gardiner announced last night.
The article as a whole is short and in my judgment it is not comprehensive enough; that is to say, it does not set out sufficiently the powers of the new board. First, may I ask the minister why this announcement was not made in the house, rather than in the manner in which it ha3 been made, seeing that the house is in session; and second, I should like to have the minister make a statement to the house outlining the powers of the new board, and informing the house whether these powers with regard to price ceiling and rationing, formerly under the wartime prices and trade board, are now being transferred to the new board so far as meat is concerned.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: The terms of the order in council to all intents and purposes give the same powers to the new meat board as were previously
held by the bacon board, but their activities will now extend to beef as well as pork. It does not make any change with regard to the control which the prices board has over rationing and over the setting of prices. There is no change whatsoever in that regard. It is simply a reconstituting of the bacon board as a meat board, and while I did not make the announcement to -the house, I did mention it the other day in the committee on agriculture.


Mark Cecil Senn: Will the Minister of Agriculture lay on the table the order in council setting up the new board?


James Garfield Gardiner: Just as soon as a copy is available.



REQUEST FOR INCREASED INITIAL PAYMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I desire to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, but first, in order to be fair to the minister, I should like to explain the situation. It will be recalled that on Tuesday last and again on Wednesday I asked if the minister had received a telegram from Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers asking for an increase in the initial payment on wheat. On both occasions the minister answered in the negative. I was quite surprised at that reply and went down to the reading room, where I found large headlines in three of the western newspapers in reference to this request. Now, to be fair to the minister, I want to read a telegram which I received yesterday; had we reached the orders of the day yesterday I would have dealt with the matter then. It is dated Regina, Saskatchewan, June 3, and reads:
Newscast this morning states reply your question MacKinnon said no request made by pools to increase initial payment wheat board act to one dollar. Find through mistake in Winnipeg office wire -was not sent. Explanatory wire gone this morning to minister from W. J. Parker, Manitoba pool.
Would the minister now state whether he has received this telegram; would he tell the house the import of it, and whether the action suggested will be taken.


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: As the hon. member for Qu'Appelle has explained, there was a delay in sending the telegram and consequently a delay before I received it. The telegram reached me about noon yesterday, and it contained a statement that a covering letter was being sent by mail. This letter has not been received as yet, but I have had an opportunity
Labour Conditions

of discussing this telegram with my colleagues and all I can say in reply to my hon. friend is that the wheat policy for 1943-44 was announced by me in January. In that statement mention was made of an advance of 90 cents per bushel to be paid on wheat, f.o.b. Fort William.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacLNNIS (Vancouver East):: Has the Minister of Labour been informed that workers employed on war contracts by the Canadian Ingersoll Rand company are being laid off? If that is so, I should like to know the reason for the lay-off and whether selective service is taking all necessary steps to direct these men to other employment.


Humphrey Mitchell: I want to thank my hon. friend for giving me notice of this question. In reply I should like to state that national selective service officers are actively engaged in placing men who have been laid off, or are to be laid off, at the plant in question; there are plenty of vacancies available. As to the necessity for the lay-off, that is a matter which is under the jurisdiction of my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). In addition, complaints have reached my department that men have been laid off because of union activity, and I have a commissioner on the ground to investigate these complaints.



CABLE MESSAGES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. C. BLACK (Cumberland):: I have a complaint to lay before the Minister of National Defence for Air in regard to delays in the delivery and receipt of cable messages to our boys in the air force in Britain. I have a letter from a mother saying that the cable companies state that the delays are due to the system or lack of attention in the air force camps in England. The letter goes on to say:
It is awful to think that there is no way to get in touch with our boy more quickly, and to have cables lying around undelivered for day's and weeks is awful. Why do they accept cables if they won't deliver them? It is robbery to take the boys' money and not deliver their messages to us. Both the men, their relations and friends are entitled to know why we cannot get better service.


Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):: If my hon. friend will give me the particulars I shall be glad to look into that specific case.


Mr. GRAYDON:: May I ask whether the minister has had similar complaints prior to this?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes, but not to the extent that we had them in the beginning. The Canadian postal authorities are doing the best they can under the circumstances.


Gordon Graydon: Apparently there are still some delays?


Charles Gavan Power: I would think so; in fact I would not hesitate to say that there are.



CIVIL SERVICE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Leslie Gordon Bell: I should like to ask the Minister of Finance if he will table a copy of the Coon report to the treasury board on civil service conditions.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, the Coon committee was appointed to advise treasury board and I regard its advice as confidential. The policy of the government is contained in the statement made and the orders in council passed some two or three days ago.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask whether the advisory committee was paid out of public funds for the work it did?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.



TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES STATEMENT IN THE BRITISH HOUSE OF COMMONS ON QUESTION OF OWNERSHIP OR CONTROL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. W. NOSEWORTHY (York South):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct the attention of the Minister of Transport (Mr. Michaud) to a Canadian Press dispatch report of two days ago setting out a debate which took place in the British House of Commons? In that debate a member of the British parliament is quoted as saying that sixty per cent of the money involved) in Trans-Canada Air Lines came from the United States. I suggest that in the interests of our publicly-owned transportation system that statement should receive some special refutation.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: As my hon. friend knows, Trans-Canada Air Lines is owned wholly by the government of Canada.

War Appropriation-Procedure



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago when we were discussing questions related to the business of the house and the order of procedure my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) mentioned to me across the floor of the house that he would ask the government to consider the question of allowing the Department of Labour to be considered next. My hon. friend at that time had reference to discussions under the war appropriation measure.
Two defence departments, namely those of the air and army, had made presentations. The army's presentation is now completed; that of the air force partly so; but there has not been at this time any presentation on the part of the navy. According to the original plan it was proposed that we should follow with the Department of Munitions and Supply, and then that upon a statement by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) we might discuss the question of man-power generally.
I replied to my hon. friend that I should like to consult with the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) and the Minister of Labour before giving a final answer. I did say I would seek to oblige hon. members opposite, andi to meet their wishes as far as possible. I stated further at the time that I thought it was logical at least to continue discussions on the three defence departments, and my Hon. friend opposite agreed.
The question came up again yesterday, at which time I intimated that up to that time I had not had a chance to confer with my colleagues. I did so last night. Both the Minister of Munitions and Supply and the Minister of Labour feel that a much more effective and intelligent presentation of the whole man-power problem could be made to the house if the Minister of Munitions and Supply were to make his statement first, and be followed later by the Minister of Labour. I must say that after discussing the matter with them I agree with their view. The whole man-power problem will I believe become much more intelligible, for purposes of discussion in the house if that order is followed. I believe there would be an avoidance of repetition and unnecessary discussion, and also there would be better and more effective understanding in the country if we had before us in the first instance a full statement of the needs of the services and of
war industries. When the needs are presented to the house, then the Minister of Labour will be in a better position to deal more particularly with the manner in which those needs as well as others are being met and are to be met.
I am most anxious in every way to accommodate hon. members opposite, and I hope they will not think that I have anything in mind other than just what I have stated. This procedure will I hope materially shorten the discussion in the house, and would be not only the most logical method of presentation, but the most effective method of presentation of the whole problem. I mention this now in order that hon. members may understand the order in which we propose to proceed.
Up to the present the government has avoided introducing other measures, or bringing down new subjects for discussion while we have been dealing with the war appropriation bill. In some ways, that is a distinct disadvantage, because any discussion carried on for so many days at a time-even weeks at a time-soon becomes wearisome. On the other hand we have realized there is nothing the country is as much concerned about, or about which the government itself is so much concerned, as the war appropriation bill and the subjects to which it relates. We have felt we should not take any chances whatsoever of having other than the fullest discussion of that measure. I hope hon. members opposite will agree that the government in following the course I am suggesting is following the right one.
I might add that yesterday the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (Mr. Coldwell) took exception to the government's departing from the original proposal, and this would seem to indicate that at least all hon. members opposite are not in agreement in the matter of following a different procedure.


Gordon Graydon: I may be under some misapprehension as to the agreement respecting the sequence of debates, but at the moment I know of no arrangement-at least I can recall none-whereby the Department of Munitions and Supply would follow directly after the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. However, I am not prepared to offer any challenge with respect to the accuracy of my understanding. I have stated my recollection.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think my hon. friend is right. I have just spoken to my colleague the Minister of National De-

War Appropriation-Procedure
fence and he states that at the time the arrangement was made to which I first referred, when we discussed the matter with the leaders of the different parties,, the Department of Munitions and Supply was not mentioned. There was mention of only the three services.


Gordon Graydon: I thank the Prime
Minister for that statement, because that was my recollection. May I say at once that we cannot possibly meet my right hon. friend in this suggestion that the Department of Munitions and Supply should follow the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. There are good and sufficient reasons for this, one of which is that during the debate yesterday which was instituted by the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) this whole matter was discussed. I would point out to the Prime Minister that the understanding had a direct bearing on the progress of that debate. During the debate the Prime Minister said, as reported at page 3283 of Hansard:
A day or two ago it was understood that after we completed the statements of the ministers of defence we might take as the next order of business the question of man-power, even before going into matters pertaining to the Department of Munitions and Supply. I do not think it will be very long before we reach the discussion of man-power, and the question of agricultural labour and the measures necessary to meet the needs of agriculture inevitably will come up as soon as that discussion is entered upon.
Then the right hon. gentleman went on to indicate what he has indicated this afternoon, and in referring to the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) he said:
However, I think he may take it for granted that in so far as it may give promise of expediting the business of the house, we will seek to meet the wishes of the opposition in the matter.
If I may say to the Prime Minister, that had a very direct bearing upon the debate yesterday.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: How?


Gordon Graydon: If the Minister of
Pensions and National Health will be as patient as he is sometimes, but not always,
I will answer his question, because I was just about to come to that point. The reason -why it had a bearing on the debate yesterday was that the discussion instituted by the hon. member for Temiscouata was only a piecemeal discussion of the whole problem of man-power. On another occas-sion in the house, after the Department of National Defence had been completed, I

mentioned to the Prime Minister that we were somewhat handicapped as a party in dealing with the whole problem of manpower because the Minister of Labour had not given his statement. We did not want to be dealing with this matter department by department, and it was largely because of that that this party did not take more than a token part in the discussion yesterday in order to make our position clear.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Ini any case the debate could not last beyond eleven o'clock.


Gordon Graydon: In my opinion that had
nothing to do with our taking part in the debate. We had the statement of the Prime Minister, which perhaps was not a guarantee, that the Minister of Labour would come on, and it left the definite impression that the manpower problem, would not be delayed and the whole picture would be laid before us. Certainly it was my understanding that he would come on before the Minister of Munitions and Supply.
As I said last night, in my opinion the problem of manpower in Canada is the major issue facing the Canadian people. The hon. member for Temiscouata raised only part of this problem; the whole problem must be dealt with. I understood the Prime Minister's argument this afternoon to- be that we should have the services and their demands and requirements before us, that we should have the demands and requirements of the Department of Munitions and Supply before us, and that we should then go on with the Minister of Labour. If that argument were followed to its logical conclusion, we should have the Department of Agriculture before the man-power problem was actually discussed by the Minister of Labour.
I must take very strong exception to the suggestion made. I realize that the government has it in its power to arrange the sequence of business in connection with the war appropriation measure, but I submit to the government that it is a mistaken procedure to have the Department of Munitions and Supply follow the Department of National Defence for Naval Services. That would mean that we should be considerably further along with the session. On a previous occasion, I think in February or March, the Minister of Labour made a partial statement on manpower but-


Mr. CLEAVER:: You would not let him
go on.

War Appropriation-Procedure


Gordon Graydon: I do not know whether
my hon. friend means that as an, interruption.


Hughes Cleaver: You would not let him
finish his statement.


Gordon Graydon: I think the Minister of
Labour should be given the opportunity to complete his statement which he gave partly on a previous occasion. So far as I can see there is no justification for a further postponement of the discussion of this problem which is so vital to this country. We should come to grips immediately with this manpower problem; we should not be delayed by having to take another department.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I hope I have made it quite clear that the government's desire is to expedite the business of the house and, with its knowledge of what has to be presented, it is I think in the best position to say how the complete picture can most effectively be presented to the house, presented that is, in a manner that will be most helpful to a discussion in the house. The desire to have the Minister of Munitions and Supply follow the defence departments has been entirely that of getting before the house the full picture of the requirements of the different defence forces and war industries. The question of farm, labour comes of course into it.
If it will help to avoid any misunderstanding between us and enable the house to reach the manpower discussion more rapidly than might otherwise be possible, I may say to my hon. friend that I am quite prepared to suggest to my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply, that he make his statement which will set forth the essential features of the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply during the past year-I imagine that this statement may take two or three hours, but not more than that-and that he then allow the discussion on the statement to stand over until there has been a discussion of the man-power problem upon the statement of the Minister of Labour.


Gordon Graydon: Why does my right hon. friend suggest that the Minister of Munitions and Supply make his statement before the Minister of Labour makes his?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: For the reason that the house will wish to know what manpower has been employed during this past year, is now being employed and will be required from now on in the war industries of the country.


Gordon Graydon: That may not come out except by cross-examination during the debate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With all due respect to my hon. friend, recalling What the Minister of Munitions and Supply has said in previous years, I think we may assume that he will follow a similar line of procedure this year, and give to the house a very full statement with respect to the man-power required by the war industries. I do not see how a discussion on man-power can proceed intelligently or without a great deal of repetition unless that statement is made in the first instance. For that reason I hope that my hon. friend will acquiesce in this proposal. I make it because apparently there has been some difference of view between us and I am anxious to accommodate both sides of the house as far as I can.
With regard to the needs of agriculture, may I say that we had a debate on the question of the shortage of farm labour earlier in the session. At that time a formal motion was made and a debate took place upon the question. Under the rules of this house a second debate cannot take place on a question once it has been discussed and disposed of. I have not raised that point although it might have been raised yesterday. I simply point it out as an additional reason why the government, in controlling the business of the house, should follow the sequence that it feels to be necessary and desirable.


Gordon Graydon: The Prime Minister has asked me if I would be ready to acquiesce in his last suggestion. This last suggestion is very important because when he raises the question about the shortage of agricultural labour having been debated before in the house, it then forms part of the whole picture. The difficulty that we have been faced with from the beginning is that matters are being dealt with piecemeal. We have always had that difficulty. What we are trying to get as quickly as possible is a discussion of the whole problem of man-power. It is suggested that the Minister of Munitions and Supply make his statement and then further discussion stand over until the man-power problem has been disposed of. At the moment I am not able to assess accurately the position in which we may find ourselves with respect to dealing with the Department of Munitions and Supply. I am afraid we cannot acquiesce in the suggestion of the Prime Minister, but the matter is in his hands.
Mr. M. J. COLDW'ELL (Rosetown-Biggar): Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a word on this, if I may. It seems to me that the logical procedure is the one outlined by the Prime Minister in the first instance, that we have statements from the three defence de-
War Appropriation-Procedure

partments and from Munitions and Supply, because then we would be in a position intelligently to discuss matters. I felt that yesterday, and I feel it even more strongly to-day. The suggestion made by the Prime Minister to have the Minister of Munitions and Supply make a statement and then leave that in abeyance while we discuss the Depart-of Labour would lead to the defeat of the objective we had in view when we agreed to a discussion of the war appropriation bill department by department, because of necessity the figures presented by the Minister of Munitions and Supply would have a close bearing on matters coming within the Department of Labour. The two departments might almost be discussed interchangeably. If we are to follow the procedure outlined by the Prime Minister it might be better to take those two departments and discuss them together because they are so closely interrelated. Personally, as I said yesterday, I think the logical order is the order originally suggested, to take the Department of Munitions and Supply and then the Department of Labour. Then we shall know the labour problems arising out of all the war departments.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend the leader of the opposition has quite rightly said that the responsibility is on the government and particularly on myself. I have made a suggestion to him which I thought would be helpful but he is not prepared to accept it. The hon. leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation says that he thinks the suggestion is illogical and should not be followed. In the circumstances, I may say at once to my hon. friend that we will proceed as we originally intended. When discussion has been completed on the statements of the defence ministers, the Minister of Munitions and Supply will make his statement and discussion can then take place on his statement. We will then proceed with the statement of the Minister of Labour.


Gordon Graydon: Speaking of responsibility may I say that the responsibility rests squarely upon the government for the delay in bringing on the man-power discussion, and they will have to accept it.



PRIVILEGE-MR. POULIOT REFERENCE TO ARTICLE IN &quot;GLOBE AND MAIL&quot; OF JUNE 4

[Stage Direction]
Oh the orders of the day:
Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temiscouata): Mr. Speaker, although the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) has not com-

pleted his self-assigned task of mending the numerous holes that he made yesterday in the Tory blue socks, I rise to a question of privilege and I have also a correction to make in a report that appeared in to-day's Globe and Mail regarding the sitting of yesterday. I quote from the Globe and Mail:
It is reliably reported that Mr. Pouliot gave notice of his intention to move the motion to the Progressive Conservative caucus earlier in the day, and that caucus decision was against supporting it.
Here is what happened. I went in the first place to the agriculture and colonization committee and asked the committee if they would consider the same matter that was discussed in the house yesterday. No definite reply was given because it would require a special reference from the house. Afterwards a Conservative member came to my room and said he would support me if I discussed the matter in the house. I said that I might bring it before the house, and that is all that was said there. May I say further that I have nothing whatever to do with the Progressive Conservative caucus for the very reason that it gets its inspiration from the same "no brains" trust that brought the Bennett government to defeat.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman has risen to .make a correction of an article that appeared in the newspapers. His question of privilege has nothing to do with the Progressive Conservative caucus.


Mr. POULIOT:: Mr. Speaker, I have a correction to make in that article. It says: "Joining them were members of Bloc Populate." No member of le Bloc Populate was in the house. I hope a correction will be made accordingly.



CANADIAN FORCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
Mr. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Mr. Speaker, on April 7 the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) referred to information of public interest regarding the creation of a new crown company for the amalgamation of telegraph and telephone lines. In answer to his request I desire to lay on the table order in council P.C. 3045 covering the establishment of Defence Communications Limited.

War Appropriation-Air Services .



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, June 2, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to his majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Usley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
2. Pay and allowances, $238,023,232.
Charles Gavan Power: Mr. Chairman, my friend and collaborator and myself have a number of questions to answer. We are quite prepared to answer them this afternoon but to do so will take some little time and the answers will be more in the nature of statements. We have only a two-hour sitting now and if the house prefers to continue the discussion and to ask further questions, as always I am the humble and obedient servant of the house.


Gordon Graydon: We will accept the word humble.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Let the minister make his statements this afternoon.


Charles Gavan Power: Is it the pleasure of the committee that I give the answers now, or does the committee prefer to continue the discussion?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Give the answers.
Other hon. MEMBERS: Make your statements now.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: It is impossible for me to hear what is going on down there.


Charles Gavan Power: I was making a suggestion to the committee, without in any way endeavouring to influence it, that we could use this afternoon in answering a number of questions which have been put to us during the two days' debate. But if we did that, it would take up a great deal of time and might deprive some members who feel like making a speech of the opportunity to do so. I am entirely in the hands of the committee.


Gordon Graydon: I thank the minister for extending this courtesy to us. I think there are one or two members who have some questions to ask. I do not think it will take long.


Charles Gavan Power: All right.


John Horne Blackmore: I am unable yet
to learn what the minister offers as an alternative.


Charles Gavan Power: I offered to answer all the questions which have been put to me in the last two days. If the committee does not want me to answer these questions to-day, I take it that the committee wants to make speeches, and I will listen. I shall be on the other end; that is all.


John Horne Blackmore: The alternative is that the minister himself will make a little speech in which he will answer the questions. I would be in favour of having the minister answer questions in a speech.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: The minister last evening gave me the opportunity, which I appreciate, of going over the new contracts with respect to the air observer and elementary flying training schools.


Charles Gavan Power: That had better come under another item, had it not? There is an item just for civilian schools.


John George Diefenbaker: If that is so, I will not continue.


Gordon Graydon: Well, this is a general discussion, of course.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Surely; go ahead.


Charles Gavan Power: All right.


John George Diefenbaker: I have a number of questions to ask arising out of this matter. The minister very kindly, as I stated, had a comparison made between the old contracts covering elementary flying training and air observer schools and the new contracts covering these schools. I have taken the opportunity of perusing the' contracts, and any objection which I have heretofore expressed to the operation of these schools generally is removed by the amendments to the contracts during the present year. There are however some matters which I think still could be improved upon.
I will outline in general so far as the elementary training schools are concerned the previous arrangements which were in effect. There was paid to the flying training companies a certain amount during each period of four weeks for maintenance. In addition there was a considerable profit allowed per flying hour. Amendments have been now made by which considerable reductions have taken place in the management fee; it is now entirely eliminated except so far as actual expenses are concerned. As to the saving or loss on operations, up to the time of the new agreement the crown has paid seventy-five per cent and the company twenty-five per cent, and under the new arrangements the division will be eighty per

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cent and twenty per cent. Generally speaking the result will effect considerable savings in the operations of these schools. There are however some changes which I think might still be made, and I place them before the minister.
The first I have in mind is in connection with insurance to take the place of the workmen's compensation act insurance in effect in the various provinces. I have not the available figures now, but if my memory is correct the amount paid by each of these schools per month averages about $1,100. I speak subject to correction in that regard. There are ten air observer schools and some twenty elementary flying training schools in Canada. At the present time the insurance is carried by insurance companies. It covers the personnel of these various schools who have not available to them the protection granted under the provincial workmen's compensation acts. I ascertained, as a result of our investigation some two years ago into these items, that the amount which was being disbursed by way of compensation was about twenty per cent of the actual amount of the premiums. With the government receiving the profits at the conclusion of the contracts for disposal as indicated in the two contracts, a saving running well on to $150,000 a year could be effected if the government itself would assume the responsibility and liability for compensation to the employees.


Charles Gavan Power: May I ask the hon. member if he lias thought this thing through? Would it mean the setting up of a sort of new insurance department by the government just for these schools? I have not thought it through.


John George Diefenbaker: No. In each of these schools there is already sufficient staff fpr the purpose. All the government would have to do would be from time to time, as accidents take place, deduct from the amount paid by each of the schools the equivalent amount now paid to the insurance companies sufficient to be disbursed among those who suffer injury and accident. In fact, the statement I make as to the savings is, I know, having regard to past payments, a considerable underestimate of the saving which could take place. In that connection I wish to ask the following questions: the amount paid during the past year for insurance premiums in the various schools; the amount paid by each school per year; and the names of the agents with whom the said insurance is placed.
My next point is in connection with the cost per flying hour-including oil and gas-in the air observer schools. I should think there would have been a large reduction in that
[Mr. Diefenbaker.)
connection. In 1941 the costs amounted to $5.68 per hour, which I submit could be greatly reduced. I would like to have the figures for the various schools.
The next matter I want to take up is that of 'catering. Under the old agreements the amounts which were allowed per pupil for staff amounted to ninety cents a day, and in most cases it was done by catering companies such as Crawley & McCracken Company Limited and George Coles Limited. The criticism I previously made of this item was that too much was being paid to these companies and that a considerable saving could take place; and I notice in the new agreement a saving which I compute at ajpout ten per cent.


Charles Gavan Power: About ten cents a day, is it not?


John George Diefenbaker: From now on there is the 50-cent rate in place of the rate which heretofore applied.


Charles Gavan Power: But we have to pay the army for the rations which they supply. That would be about 40 cents. That is 90 cents instead of a dollar.


John George Diefenbaker: At any rate, it is a very considerable saving-


Charles Gavan Power: It is a saving.


John George Diefenbaker: -and along the line which has been indicated. I should like to have a statement showing the cost to graduate pupils in the air observer schools and elementary flying schools. The original amount was estimated at $1,653.57, but with the change under the new agreement I should like to get the figures in that connection.
In the press recently there was a statement to the effect that a considerable change had taken place with respect to the capital stock of the companies concerned. It was stated that the common stock had been called in, and I suggest that a statement in that regard would clear up many misconceptions touching the holding of stock. Under the arrangements with the elementary training schools, in most instances these schools were brought into being by flying clubs and sponsored1 by them. There are two or three of these schools, however, that are under private ownership.


Charles Gavan Power: One elementary school, I
believe-Three Rivers.


John George Diefenbaker: There	are two
others, if my memory is correct, that were not directly sponsored by flying clubs. These flying clubs have secured large amounts of money in the form of surpluses, which are being held1 until the conclusion of the war by the various companies operating the schools,

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at which time allocations will be made to the flying clubs that have sponsored the several schools, or such other disposition will be made of the moneys as may be determined by the minister.
Some indication of the profits which these elementary flying training schools have made was shown in a return, sessional paper 326, brought down in answer to a number of questions asked by myself on April 26 last. I am not going over the record of these profits in detail, but I have a suggestion to make as to the use that might very well be made of these moneys. Taking the schools in the order in which they appear, the answer is that profits, before making provision for income and excess profits tax, including the company's share of operation and maintenance savings, are fairly substantial. Take the first one, Fort William. For the first period of twenty-four weeks the amount was $16,732; for the second period $14,547; for the third period, $11,636; for the fourth period, $11,105. Then it falls away in the sixth period to $6,025.
Take Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. In the first period; the amount was $9,589; then $12,166, $10,360, $3,392, $8,703, and $202. There are others but I will not refer to them by name. There are some in larger amounts- $19,000 surplus and profit during the period of twenty-four weeks; another, $25,300; another, $15,000; another, $26,900; and so on. These amounts are held, less the payment of course of income tax and excess profits tax, to the end of the war.
Mr. POWER; They have paid in $1,370,000. They are being made to give that eighty per cent to us now.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister says it is now being paid, but there is nothing to indicate that this was being done.


Charles Gavan Power: I d'o not think that was in the contract; my hon. friend is right. I have not seen anything in the contract, but we did have the right at any time to ask for a certain portion. Perhaps not the whole eighty per cent, but a large portion has been paid and the amounts come to $1,370,000.


John George Diefenbaker: That was a suggestion I made repeatedly.


Charles Gavan Power: Quite right.


John George Diefenbaker: I believe that to be one way in which these moneys could be controlled. On the other hand, in the operation of the air observer schools large profits are being made which will revert to the crown. As a result of the establishment of these civilian schools a large amount of money
will be available after the war for aviation purposes, and I think that money might very well be used in the continuance of aviation facilities, in their extension, and to aid in the establishment of a post-war aviation scheme applicable to the British commonwealth of nations.
The other day a question was asked the Prime Minister as to whether or not conversations had been initiated between the United Kingdom and the self-governing dominions with respect to an empire plan for post-war civil aviation, to which the answer was no. To-day the British people and the British parliament itself, within the past two weeks, have been debating this question. An opportunity should) be given to men who serve in the air force to become rehabilitated after the conclusion of hostilities, and it is my opinion that these moneys that now revert to the crown, already totalling a considerable sum, which will become increasingly larger as the years go by, and the facilities that are now being operated by these schools, belonging to the crown, might very well form the basis for the establishment in Canada of a basis for an empire scheme. I believe the civilian schools and the whole set-up in the old country will be utilized for the same purpose, and it is time for us ini Canada to give the lead in this direction. It would benefit the men when they return after the war from service in the air force, to continue in this as a life work. Many of them will desire to do so and they should have that opportunity, and for this reason among others, we should' now lay the foundations for such an all-empire air transport service.
A few days ago there appeared in the press an item setting out the attitude of the British people towards this matter. Canada has not yet participated in a conference regarding this poshwar scheme with the other nations within the commonwealth of nations. I think she should, in order to establish, as it were, an all-family round-the-world transport system for the purpose of uniting still more the various nations of the empire, and, in addition to that, affording an opportunity to ensure to the men who serve in the air force jobs and positions when they return. Recently the Sunday Times dealt with this matter, and if I may be permitted I should like to quote what it said in an editorial; with this I shall conclude. In Great Britain there has been a most favourable reaction toward the establishment of this empire air transport system. As yet in Canada opinion has not been crystallized and there have been no representations made by Canada to the other empire nations, if I correctly understand the Prime Minister's



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statement. I do think now is the time to lay the foundation for the continuance of this empire after the war, to bind it together more closely than ever before by the establishment of an empire air transport plan. In that connection I shall refer to the editorial, which sums up the attitude generally of the British people:
London is now only eighteen hours from New York, ten hours from Cairo, eight hours from Moscow. Even the great ocean barrier of the Pacific is flown regularly many times a week at two hundred miles an hour or more.
Air communication will play a major part in the lives of nations from now forward. Public discussions on both sides of the Atlantic are ahead of official thought, and reveal such weight of enterprise that international agreements on the air routes of the world are a pressing concern.
A primary British need to-day is for a policy for empire air transport. At present there is none. R.A.F. transport command is doing invaluable work as a military unit. To suggest it should assume other than military functions in operating world air routes would be to court disaster.
There is a strong case for starting now _ to design transport planes . . . but civil aviation will offer such a vast field for enterprise after the war that there seems to be no justification for restricting it to monopolistic control-unless the greater goal of full internationalization can be achieved, with all its manifest benefits.
Then, it goes on to say that the British dominions and India should be parties to an Anglo-American understanding. My submission, Mr. Chairman, is that while in the past I have not always seen eye to eye in regard to the turning over to civilian companies of the elementary and air observer training of our air force, the results achieved have been tremendous. We have built up airfields and communications across Canada which will form a foundation upon which Canada can offer a great contribution toward an empire transport system. I think the minister now should lay plans, and should tell the people of Canada what those plans are, with reference to the use of our aerodromes and other facilities when the war is over, whether they will be still controlled by the government or whether it is the intention to turn them over to private companies.
I do not know that there are any other matters with which I want to deal. So far as the air observer schools and the elementary flying training schools are concerned, the new contracts do away with many of the things to which previously I took objection. I realize that while experience was being secured, naturally some portions of the agreement were not what they should have been, but I do think the minister is entitled to every commendation for having made the

alterations to some of which I have referred to-day.
There is just one other point to which I should like to refer; that is the reclamation of oil in these various schools. To-day, with the shortage of oil that exists, everything possible should be done in the reclamation, of oil. I know the figures so far as one school is concerned. The total value of the oil that would have been wasted at that school if a reclamation plant had not been set up was $4,104. A reclamation plant was set up at a cost of only $957, and it brought about the saving of $3,200 worth of oil within the first year. As I understand it, some of the schools do not have reclamation plants as yet, but I think for the small expense involved and the very large savings that are brought about, consideration should be given to the setting up of reclamation plants and units at each of these schools.


Mr. MacNICOL:: May I ask the minister
if the airfields which have been constructed either by or for his department across Canada and into the north permit the landing of planes carrying ten tons?


Charles Gavan Power: I am sorry I cannot answer my hon. friend. The elementary flying fields were not built for the operation of heavy types of planes, nor were the service flying fields. I do not know about ten tons, whether it is or is not a particularly heavy load. I know some of the planes weigh thirty and forty tons. I shall make inquiries, but offhand I could not say. I can tell my hon. friend that only a very small portion of our aerodromes are built for heavy machines. The elementary fields are built for the operation of light planes, generally speaking, and that is also the case in regard to the sendee flying fields.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have read that the heaviest load carried by the planes flying north to-day is six thousand pounds, or three tons, but that the United States bombers going to Alaska-


Charles Gavan Power: My hon. friend is talking about the aerodromes built for the purposes of the training plan. Normally they are not built for the operation of large transport planes, but aerodromes built for the purposes of these transport planes are capable of taking those planes carrying normal loads, and I should say possibly the ones to which he is referring are in that category.
Mr: MacNICOL: Then may I ask if the airfield being built northeast of the Pas-


Charles Gavan Power: I would not know.

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John Ritchie MacNicol: It is not under your department?


Charles Gavan Power: I shall inquire, but I could not say offhand.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I understand that heavy bombing planes land there.


Charles Gavan Power: If they land there I presume it is built to accommodate such planes, but I could not say offhand whether a specific aerodrome would be capable of handling a plane carrying a ten ton load or a twenty ton load or a thirty ton load. I am not a technician, but I can tell my hon. friend that staging aerodromes, or aerodromes used for offensive or defensive purposes, normally can take almost any kind of plane. The ones built for elementary training take elementary training aircraft, which are light aircraft.


John Horne Blackmore: I was interested the other day when the minister indicated that he was in favour of granting commissions to as many of our young men as were qualified for them, regardless of quotas or any other ulterior motive or consideration. I wanted to raise a question in that regard. I have been told that boys who accept commissions are frequently a good deal worse off financially, after receiving their commissions, because of certain requirements made of them.


Charles Gavan Power: That is correct.


John Horne Blackmore: And which they find unavoidable.


Charles Gavan Power: The income tax.


John Horne Blackmore: No, not the income tax; certain things incidental to the dignity of their craft, so to speak. Is that so?


Charles Gavan Power: It is true.


John Horne Blackmore: Would I be in order if I were to ask the minister if that is the best way to have it? Would it not be better if the income of these boys was graduated so that the young man receiving a commission would not be worse off financially, and so that he could break even?


Charles Gavan Power: There does seem to be quite a discrepancy now between the pay of a sergeant .pilot and that of a commissioned officer. I would hesitate to raise the pay of a commissioned officer without raising that of the sergeant pilot, and in that way we would be back to the place we started. I do not know what answer I can make to the question. Upon reading some literature from the United Kingdom government on this question I find they make the statement that a great many of their non-commissioned pilots do not wish 72537-2121
to become officers because of the financial loss involved. I .really do not know how I can grade these rates of pay in order to make it more attractive for someone to get a commission than to remain as a sergeant. I have no objection to looking into the matter, but I am afraid, if I may say so offhand, that my hon. friend is barking up the wrong tree.


John Horne Blackmore: The minister is quite right in his anxiety about the matter. In my view no consideration of financial reward should be troubling any of our prospective officers. I know of young men who in my opinion ought to be officers, because of the services they could render, but who, because of what to some people might be considered minor considerations, are deterred from going ahead.


Charles Gavan Power: Some men have refused commissions-not very many, actually, but some. But some warrant officers class 1 who are receiving equipment allowance would rather remain non-commissioned officers than accept commissions.


John Horne Blackmore: In any effort the minister makes which will result in our best boys becoming officers without their having to suffer anxiety because of financial arrangements, he will have my unswerving support.


Mr. GREEN:: Would the minister answer the questions which were asked?


Charles Gavan Power: May we pass this item first?'


Agar Rodney Adamson: Before the item carries, a question has come to my notice to-day, and I think this is the proper place to take it up. I quotte briefly from this letter:
Enclosed please find letter read from the Montreal Star, regarding member of air force, aircrew, who may be grounded after honourable service, and yet whose stripes are apparently temporarily-
And so on. And then the quotation in the paper is-


Charles Gavan Power: I would much prefer to discuss the matter privately with the hon. member, if he does not mind.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Apparently the matter appeared in the press; that was my reason, for bringing it up.


Charles Gavan Power: If the hon. member will send it to me I shall look into it, and if necessary I will make a statement in the house.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is satisfactory.

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Mr. CARDIFF:: I believe about a year ago, or perhaps a little more than that, the security guards were set up. I do not know how many men enlisted in it, but I understand they are being dropped and shoved into some other part of the service. Are they being given a chance to remuster, or will they be transferred to another branch of the service without any choice in the matter?


Charles Gavan Power: I would say we can move them anywhere we like once they are in the service-and particularly the security guards. I do not think they had any very special qualifications. My recollection is that in respect of the security guards we just change their name. Without hesitation we would take security guards and put them on some iDther job without consulting them at all.
TVlr. CARDIFF: Would a security guard not have the opportunity of choice?


Charles Gavan Power: He could talk to his
commanding officer or his immediate commander, but he would not be in any category which would necessitate our consulting him if we were going to move him.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: What is the approximate number on the waiting list for air force?


Charles Gavan Power: Aircrew?


Charles Edward Johnston: Yes.


Charles Gavan Power: I cannot tell the hon. member the number on the waiting list.


Charles Edward Johnston: Approximately?


Charles Gavan Power: No, I cannot.


Charles Edward Johnston: I understand there are quite a number.


Charles Gavan Power: At this time there are fewer than there were. Is my hon. friend asking in connection with farm work?


Charles Edward Johnston: No. That brings me to a question brought up the other day, as to why it was we are not training more in the air force. I do not wish the minister to misunderstand me, because I am not trying to criticize his efforts in connection with the air force. As I said yesterday, I think his attitude is the proper one. But I have been talking to officers in the air force and their complaint was that they could train more men if they had the facilities at hand. They pointed out an insufficiency of training aircraft. I do not know whether we have not the training aircraft, or whether we

have not the facilities in connection with air fields. Would the minister make a statement?


Charles Gavan Power: I can tell my hon. friend right away that we have a plant which is supposed to turn out a certain output of so many aircrew per annum. We have to build up our plant to its full capacity, and we are not proposing to increase it very much more. One very good reason is that we would not get the raw material if we kept on increasing it indefinitely, because there are not in Canada -I think I said this in my preliminary statement-an unlimited number of men fit for aircrew. I do not know yet; I may find out, to my cost, before I am through, that perhaps we have built a plant too big for the number of aircrew we may be able to get, as days go on. We are not being curtailed by lack of aircraft, and at this time we are not being curtailed by lack of aircrew.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister give consideration to giving airmen on sick leave extra time to get to and from their homes? It is a pressing point in British Columbia.


Charles Gavan Power: That would be purely a medical matter, if they are on sick leave. The medical man would state how long the sick leave would last, and each case would be dealt with on its merits.


Howard Charles Green: For example, I have in mind a man who has been in hospital for some months, and at the expiration of that time will be given some furlough.


Charles Gavan Power: It depends on his condition, does it not?


Howard Charles Green: Men from British Columbia who have been in hospital in Ontario or the maritime provinces find some difficulty; for they have only a few days at home. The suggestion has been made that they should be allowed the time to travel to and from their homes.


Charles Gavan Power: Surely the medical man must take into consideration the injuries that have been received. I should be very glad to have particulars of any case of that kind.
- Mr. GREEN: These men ought to be spending more of their time at home rather than on the train. I raised this question with the Minister of National Defence when his estimates were before us and he told me that he would discuss it with the minister. I think if the minister will look into this situation he will find that there is some hardship.


Charles Gavan Power: There cannot be any such thing as a uniform sick leave. A man may

War Appropriation-Air Services
have a certain disability and he is told to go away to recuperate. This period of recuperation will be longer for one disability than for another. I cannot imagine the medical men saying to a man, "You are sick and are going to get two weeks' leave," and then saying the same thing to a man who is recovering from a really serious illness.


Howard Charles Green: No, but I believe that once men in the air force are discharged from hospital they are given a sick furlough, either twelve or fourteen days.


John George Diefenbaker: I received a letter from a man who has two sons in the air force. Another son was called up recently under the provisions of the National Resources Mobilization Act and he now wishes to be transferred to the air force. There are a number of men in the army who are available for service only in Canada and who would like to transfer to the air force, but the opportunity is denied them. Apparently they are not permitted to make this transfer once they have been enrolled under the provisions of the mobilization act.


Charles Gavan Power: Before they actually enrolled, or whatever you call it, in the army they had the opportunity of going to the air force and volunteering for active service anywhere in the world. I will admit that there is no clear procedure laid down to provide for transfers from the army to the air force. Of course, if the army were willing to discharge them and they had the necessary qualifications for aircrew, we should be glad to have them.


John George Diefenbaker: One would think
that if there are men who are not willing to serve overseas in the army and who have the qualifications and are desirous to serve anywhere in the air force, the opportunity should be given to them to transfer.


Charles Gavan Power: They had that opportunity when they were first called up.


John George Diefenbaker: I appreciate that
but many of them did not realize their exact position.


Charles Gavan Power: I shall be glad to take that up with my colleague the Minister of National Defence. If there are any men who have not been willing to volunteer for active service overseas with the army and who would be willing to volunteer to go anywhere as aircrew, I should be glad to get them.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is
there a sea rescue service in the R.C.A.F.?


Charles Gavan Power: That is one of the answers I am to make to the hon. member for York West.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are awards given only to the non-commissioned ranks in this service?


Charles Gavan Power: That is our marine service.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
understand that in Great Britain awards are given only to the non-commissioned ranks. Does that apply to the R.C.A.F.?


Charles Gavan Power: I should not think so, but I can inquire about that. It would be extraordinary in our service if we limited awards to non-commissioned officers or to other ranks. Is the limitation downward or upward?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Downward.


Charles Gavan Power: That is to say, officers do not get them?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It was stated ini the British Hansard that officers do not get them.


Charles Gavan Power: There are certain awards
which are not given to officers, and there are other awards which are not given to other ranks. This distinction applies through the whole service. The D.S.O. is not given to other ranks and the D.C.M. is not given to officers. The Military Medal is not given to officers and the Military Cross is not given to other ranks.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The way I read the British Hansard an officer in that service canot get an award; they are given only to the non-commissioned officers and other ranks.


Charles Gavan Power: I hardly think it applies
here, but I shall inquire.


John George Diefenbaker: Will the minister give us the cost of recruiting during the past year?


Charles Gavan Power: We have it here.


John George Diefenbaker: We were given a statement the other day by the Minister of National Defence as to the cost of recruiting in the army.


Charles Gavan Power: I have it here.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
3. Travel, transportation and freight, $20,838,068.
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyfoum):: Would it be possible to do anything to reduce the amount of unnecessary travelling that sometimes takes place? I do not know what the experience of other hon. members has been, but in travelling back and forth across the country I have talked to many men in the

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air force who seem to have done a lot of unnecessary travelling. I realize that this is not an easy thing to eliminate. Sometimes it is caused by red tape, and sometimes it has not been easy to plan ahead. I came across one glaring example, but this is not by any means an isolated one. This young man had graduated as a member of aircrew in the east and he was told to go home to Moose Jaw on leave and then to come back, when he would be posted. After his leave he came back to eastern Canada and was posted to Mossbank, which is just a few miles outside of Moose Jaw. As I say, I realize that it is not always easy to eliminate this sort of thing, but I should like to know whether it has been drawn to the minister's attention. In view of the congestion on our railroads, every effort should be made to reduce unnecessary travelling.


Charles Gavan Power: In the earlier days this was particularly bad, but I think it has improved lately. On my first trip to the Pacific coast I was astounded to find that most of the men there-in those days we had a surplus of aircrew and many of these men were on guard duty-had been enlisted in Nova Scotia. Some of them were as far away as Prince Rupert. There was a great deal of confusion in posting, but we have done our best to eliminate that. In the days of our early expansion, when pupils finished the elementary school training we wanted to fill up the service flying training school and we took them from almost anywhere, from the east and the west. I think in all commands to-day there are all categories of schools except the advanced training school. Probably the man referred to by the hon. member was shipped down east because they expected to send him overseas, and it may have been found that he would make a better instructor and they decided to send him to Mossbank. There has been and probably still is more travelling than there should be. I have done everything I can to eliminate it and will continue to do everything I can, because it is a serious problem.


Mr. REID:: One of the complaints that has reached me has to do with the women who are joining the air force. It has been pointed out that if a girl desires to train as a wireless operator and enlists in Vancouver or New Westminster, she may be sent to Toronto or Montreal. Then when she completes her training the girl from the west is usually posted in the east, while the girl from the east is posted in the west. When a girl posted in Halifax earns leave she finds it will take twelve or thirteen days

of her leave to go to the west coast and return. Could not a wireless school be established in British Columbia, and could not girls and men from the west be posted in the western provinces?


Charles Gavan Power: It would be pretty difficult
to do that. We have a certain number of wireless schools established, I believe four. At one of them, in Montreal, we took out most of the men who were learning wireless operating, ground, and placed women there. There are not very many come in at each intake per month. We find it very difficult to establish another school, except at great cost; and even if we did, we might find that we could not take care of the output because there is a limited number of positions for wireless operators, ground, in Canada. The women who take up that course are mostly destined to remain in Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the minister the
break-down of this item for travel, transportation and freight?


Charles Gavan Power: The amount of $13,255,695
for travel is made up as follows:
Staff travel	 $ 3,848,000
Pupil postings	 7,114,705
Pupils and escort parties (chiefly
Australian and New Zealand)	1,111,790
Annual and pre-embarkation
leave	 1,091,421
University air training corps..	.	7,779
Civilian travel, including departmental administration	 82,000
Total	 $13,255,695
The probable expenditure last year was $10,800,000. We are spending more this year because we have more personnel.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the break-down
of the items for transportation and freight?


Charles Gavan Power: I will get that in a
moment.


John Horne Blackmore: I should not be surprised to learn that the minister had been working industriously to get free transportation for the men in the air force on embarkation leave and on furlough. Am I correct in my supposition?


Charles Gavan Power: I am afraid I have to say
that I adhere to the established policy for the three services, which is not quite free transportation on embarkation leave. I have a long statement here on leave. It is similar to that which was given in connection with the army. We have a joint committee for army, navy and air force before which we

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thresh out any suggestion- of discrimination as between the three services. All three services follow the same rule as to leave.


John Horne Blackmore: I do believe that we should give free transportation, on embarkation leave and on, at least one furlough, no matter where the men may be stationed. As matters are now, the boys who come from poor families are at a disadvantage because all the money they can spare is used to help their folks. The result is that many are not able to go on leave. I think this matter should be taken up in the interests of justice.


Charles Gavan Power: That matter was thoroughly discussed when the army estimates were before the committee. I do not know that there is anything I can add. I think the Minister of National Defence said that he was going to give the matter further consideration. I have no objection to taking it up again at defence council, where the three services meet and discuss their common problems, to see what we can do about it.


John Horne Blackmore: I urge the minister to take it up and use all the pressure he can to put it through.


Mr. MARSHALL:: The minister will recall that a couple of days ago I asked about radio technicians. Can he make a statement now on that?


Charles Gavan Power: I have the answer here but it will take some time to read it. Perhaps it would be as well if we got on the record all the questions that are to be asked so that we could have the week-end to work over them. If not, I will answer now the questions we have at present.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: My colleague the member for Cape Breton South was called out of the house but he has one matter to bring up which I will mention and perhaps the minister will give the information. It is a complaint from a man in the air force who joined at Sydney, Nova Scotia, was moved to Halifax and then to Toronto. He claims in his letter he was three nights on the train without any berth and no meals supplied. He is under the impression, whether it is correct or not I do not know, that when men move west of Toronto they are supplied with meals and berths. But the writer of this letter says that these men who came to Toronto from the maritimes got no meals or berths and on the last night they had to stand up in the day coach. This man certainly seemed to have had an unfortunate experience.


Charles Gavan Power: If it is a trip of only one night he does not get a berth. There is no distinction made between travelling east and west of Toronto. I think the Minister of National Defence made a statement on this question with reference to the army. The same thing applies to the air force. We get the same treatment as the others.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: This is a man in the air force, not the army.


Charles Gavan Power: They do not get a berth if they are travelling only one night. If it is more than that I cannot say at the moment what accommodation they get, but there is no regulation that prohibits a man from getting a berth. I think he would be entitled to one if he was travelling more than one night. I am informed that it is in the regulations that he should get one. If he did not, he should have made his complaint to the proper authorities.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: He was three nights on the train and got no berth and no meals.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I understand that members of the women's division are provided with berths, the same as in the army.


Charles Gavan Power: We changed the rule some time ago.


Agar Rodney Adamson: They get a berth if they are travelling only one night?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


John Horne Blackmore: How is the amount spent on transportation divided between the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific railways?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think I have that information here, but I can get it for my hon. friend. It is about fifty-fifty.


John Horne Blackmore: Perhaps the minister will include those figures in his general statement on Monday. I have another question. Is any of the freight from central Canada to the maritimes routed through the United States on American lines? Jf so, how much?


Charles Gavan Power: I will look that up.


John Horne Blackmore: I have had one or two bitter complaints from Nova Scotia and one from New Brunswick that too much freight was being routed through the United States at the expense of Canadian railways.


Charles Gavan Power: My hon. friend is probably thinking of the short line through Maine to Saint John, New Brunswick, instead of going around by the Canadian National.

War Appropriation-Air Services


John Horne Blackmore: Yes.


Charles Gavan Power: We will check on that.


John Horne Blackmore: Many people in the maritimes feel that this is discrimination against them.


Charles Gavan Power: I spent a lot of time in that section of the country, and I can assure my hon. friend that freight trains there are passing so frequently that I think that is about all the traffic the Canadian National Railways can bear. That is, I would think so as a mere spectator.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
4. Construction, purchases, repairs and operating expenses of properties:
(a) capital expenditure	 $93,421,100
(b)	repairs, operating expenses
and rentals	 13,482,925
Howard Charles Green: This vote for capital expenditure is approximately S93i millions. It is true that is a reduction from the amount spent last year, but it is a very large amount of money. Is any provision made for checking the types of buildings that are being put up for the air force, for example, the equipment depots? I have had complaints to the effect that they are far more expensive in construction than they need be-after all, they are only for use for a few years-and should be of a more temporary nature, and that a great deal of lumber and building material is being wasted in them, and also much labour is required which would be very useful in building homes and doing other construction work. Are all the plans made and passed in the air department alone, or is there some other department which checks to see that they are not too extravagant?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know that there is any other department which checks them. We have a works and buildings development committee, composed of officers of our department, who go over the plans and specifications of every one of these buildings. There is no other department which checks; I do not see how there could be. The plans and specifications are submitted to the chief engineer, works and buildings-


Howard Charles Green: In the minister's department?


Charles Gavan Power: In our department. We have a branch of works and buildings. Then it goes to the deputy minister, and eventually comes to me for the financial encumbrance necessary to raise the money to put up the building. I think most of the equipment depots are on a model of some kind. In some places they
(Mr. Power.]
may be greater in scope than in others, but I think the model is there; the type of building is one for which specifications were laid down some time ago. My hon. friend is thinking, perhaps, of the equipment depot in 'Vancouver. A lot of stuff has to go in there.


Howard Charles Green: I simply use the equipment depots as an illustration. Hundreds of millions of dollars are being spent each year on buildings by the Department of National Defence and apparently there is nobody to check them. Contractors have come to me and said it is ridiculous that the buildings should be of the type they are, that they are costing far more than they should; and it seems to me that some of the buildings I have observed in process of going up are far bigger than are required for the number of men who are to use them. Of course I am not an expert on the subject, but I think there should be some check, probably by the Department of Finance, on these plans and on the amount of money which is going into buildings most of which will be absolutely useless once the war is over. I believe the country is losing millions of dollars in this way.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think the Department of Finance has at its disposal a corps of engineers or any thoroughly qualified person 

a constructor or engineer or somebody like that-for purposes of checking. We go to treasury board or to council with an appropriation for so much money to build an equipment depot or some other building, but I am sure the Minister of Finance of his own knowledge cannot know whether I am building too extravagant a building or one which is too ornate for the purpose. I do not know how checking could be done other than by superimposing a corps of engineers over all construction, including that of the Department of Public Works.


Howard Charles Green: During the war would it not be wise to have some board of that kind set up in the Department of Finance?


Charles Gavan Power: So far as we are concerned it would not be of much use. We are practically finished. We are spending 39 millions this year on all these plans which are now in, and I imagine it would be more trouble than it would be worth to change the plans. Specifications have been drawn for everything we propose to build. If we have to put up a new school, we have the type of buildings which go with each school, so many buildings, so many feet long, so many feet high and so many feet wide, to accommodate so many people. The specifications are laid down for the mess hall, recreation hall, and so on; the hangar

War Appropriation-Air Services
is so big, or it is a double hangar. All that kind of thing is just a matter of taking the blueprint out of a drawer and going ahead with it, in any normal construction that we require.


Howard Charles Green: The point is a very serious one because of the difficulties in building homes across the country.


Charles Gavan Power: I will admit to my hon. friend that, in the hurry to get things done, put up buildings and have our schools going, perhaps at the start there may have been some lack of supervision. I was camping on the trail of these engineers to get the buildings built, the schools opened, and if they have spent a little more money than they need to have done I suppose I must take the blame for it. But now it is standardized, and I do not know how money could be saved unless we had a committee of some kind going all through every type of building we have and checking up on it.


Howard Charles Green: I believe there could yet be quite a saving on buildings to be erected in the future.


Mr. LOCKHART:: In connection with this amount, which almost parallels the previous year's expenditures, could we have information as to more recent developments, with particular reference to the middle western provinces, and the amounts which have been or will be spent on totally new projects?


Charles Gavan Power: "Will be" or "have been"? If it is "have been", since when?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I will not go back to the original commitments, but within recent months some very heavy expenditures have been entered upon. Could' a break-down be given of where those are, the amounts which are to be expended, and perhaps some information as to why that large amount is being expended? I refer more particularly to the central part of Canada.


Charles Gavan Power: To Ontario?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: It has come to my attention that large amounts are going out-


Charles Gavan Power: Does my hon. friend want me to give him a list of the construction works going on in Ontario?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: The more recent commitments in the construction programmes.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know what my hon. friend means by "more recent".


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Anything that has been developed in the past six to eight months,
where purchases of sites have been made and large contracts have been entered into. Could we have the names and the locations of those places?


Charles Gavan Power: 
Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Yes.


Charles Gavan Power: That is about what my hon. friend wants?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Could that be put on
Hansard?


Charles Gavan Power: I could put some of the tables on Hansard, but I would not like to put them all on Hansard, because I would get in the eastern air command, which takes in home war stations, and the western air command, which also takes in war stations, and these are defensive or offensive aerodromes and for security purposes we do not like to record them publicly. I will give the hon. member all the training items if he wants them. Is that satisfactory?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: The criticism arises from competent contractors who have seen developments within the last six months to a year where large amounts have been paid for sites and large contracts have been entered into in the last year for buildings. They question the justification for the extravagant construction as well as the necessity for so tremendous an expenditure at this stage of the war.


Charles Gavan Power: I will read to my hon.
friend a list of the places, and he can tell me which one of them is criticized.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: The minister might
deal with the western part of Ontario and the central western provinces. That is where the criticism came from.


Charles Gavan Power: I will read the names rapidly: Belleville, Oshawa, Mohawk, Mohawk, Malton, Kapuskasing, Windsor, Jarvis, Kingston, Mountain View, Angus, Aylmer, Centralia, St. Catharines, St. Catharines, Goderich, Mountain View, Trenton, Dafoe, Winnipeg, Gimli, Gimli, Souris, Fort William. Davidson, Rivers, Neepawa, Rivers.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Will the minister give
a break-down of those that are included in the central western provinces, excluding British Columbia and Ontario. I should like



War Appropriation-Air Services
to get the western provinces, particularly the central western provinces, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba.


Charles Gavan Power: In No. 4 training command the names are: High River, Edmonton, Edmonton, DeWinton, Caron, Assiniboia, Calgary, Dawson Creek, Calgary, Mossbank, Edmonton, Macleod, Bow'den.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Could we have a breakdown of these particular places?


Charles Gavan Power: Perhaps I had better
put it in this way. In No. 1 training command, Ontario, there is $4,122,000 worth going on.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: That is mostly additions.


Charles Gavan Power: Yes. In No. 2 there is
$2,600,000, all additions. In No. 3 there is $5,403,000. In No. 4 there is $1,767,000. I can give the total amounts in the eastern air command and the western air command. In the former it is $3,424,000, and in the latter, $11,591,000. They do not group headquarters on the eastern coast, but the amount for No. 1 group headquarters is $2,433,000. Miscellaneous amounts to $9,190,140. The total is $39,155,523. There are some very large figures such as Comox, $1,895,000. That is a new aerodrome.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Will the minister put
on the record new constructions that have developed within the year. He need not bother with the small extensions to different airports, but will he put on record the new programme that has been developed in any part in connection with which he can give information?


Charles Gavan Power: I will do that.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Perhaps the minister
could give us just a brief table indicating these large expenditures.


Charles Gavan Power: Anything over half a million?


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Anything that is considered new construction; anything which is an entirely new venture in connection with the department.


Charles Gavan Power: It is difficult to say what is a new venture because this was all planned two years ago-well, not all, but a good deal of it-and we were committed to it in advance by our arrangements. Perhaps the hon. member would like information on new construction started, or for which there were contracts.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Make it two years
instead of one.


Mr. FAIR:: Is a new airfield being constructed at Wainwright?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think so, offhand, but I will find out. There was talk of one some time ago, but I am not sure. It may have been dropped.


Robert Fair: I understand that some land has been arranged for in that district.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think there is construction going on at the moment, but I will inquire.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: What is the value of the buildings which the air force owns in Britain, and what arrangements have been made with the British government with respect to buildings there?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think we have purchased any. We have rented at different places. We have a rented building in London, and others in other places, and we are operating on a rental basis. I do not think we have purchased anything, but I will check on that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has the department built anything there?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think so. It would be very small if we did. However, I do not believe there is anything. There may be small temporary buildings.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Could the
minister give a break-down of the $110,000,000 last year, and $93,000,000 estimated this year, as apportioned to the three branches of his department, overseas, commonwealth air training and the western command.


Charles Gavan Power: I think I can give that, with a reservation. I would not give it for home war or hemisphere defence. I might give a lump sum, but I would not indicate where the aerodromes are.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Only the total.


Charles Gavan Power: As regards the air training scheme, I do not think my officers will object to my giving the whole amount itemized for each particular undertaking. That will cover the answer to the question asked by the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart):


Mr. POTTIER:: Could the minister give the total amounts for the eastern defence area and the Pacific defence area? I should like to get the gross total in each case.


Charles Gavan Power: I will try to get that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Will the minister give the reason for the increase in
b>lr. Lockhart.]

War Appropriation-Air Services
rentals? I cannot see the exact amount, on account of the lights being out, but it is over $4,000,000.


Charles Gavan Power: The increase is, in all probability, due to the fact that the new schools are getting more accommodation. WTe have more personnel. Offhand, however, that would be the answer.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why is all that rented?


Charles Gavan Power: We are probably-getting more accommodation.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: If the minister does not know now, perhaps he can answer afterwards.


Charles Gavan Power: I am trying to think of an instance where we have opened in the last year a school wherein we probably spent a considerable amount in rental.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Could the minister tell us on Monday? There is $4,000,000, which is a lot of rental.


John George Diefenbaker: Is it the intention of the department to start further elementary flying training schools under the Royal Canadian Air Force?


Charles Gavan Power: It is not the present intention.


John George Diefenbaker: One was established during the past year in Davidson, Saskatchewan?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: And it is not the present intention to start more?


Charles Gavan Power: It is not the present intention to increase the number of elementary schools.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Before the item carries I wish to make an observation. I remember very well that when the minister was on this side of the house he was a really good questioner and nothing went through when he was not perfectly satisfied with the answers given to questions asked. But he sees how futile it is for us here to-day. We are completely helpless. What can we do? What can we ask? An item of $93,421,100 is before the committee, and the Chairman says, "Carried''. What can we do? The country looks at us and says our efforts seem like a joke, and that is very largely true. An ordinary country grocer will receive a bill of goods. He has his invoice and he checks off that invoice: two dozen cans of Aylmer peas, two gross of clothes pins, one box of
prunes, and so forth, but we are helpless; we have no details, nothing about which we can ask.


Charles Gavan Power: Why do you not ask the questions? I am willing to answer every question that is asked. I rise to a question of privilege, Mr. Chairman; I have not refused an answer to any question.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I know, but the minister cannot give us the details.


Charles Gavan Power: I will give all the details; I have files of them right here. At the beginning of this sitting I stated that if the committee wanted me to answer questions I would do so, and if hon. members said they wanted me to answer the questions on Monday I would do so. I do not want my hon. friend to give the impression that I have - refused to answer questions.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I did not.


Charles Gavan Power: Let m.y hon. friend play the game; if he has any sensible questions to ask, let him do so.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not ask anything but sensible questions, and I resent the minister's saying that. He is getting off very easily.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not care how hard you make it for the minister; I will answer every question that is asked.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister could not answer the question of the hon. member for Lincoln.


Charles Gavan Power: The minister certainly could not give a list of over one hundred establishments out of his head, and he could not read it with the lights off.


The CHAIRMAN:: The minister has raised a question of privilege. I am sure the committee realizes that the minister is ready and willing to answer all the questions possible. Then the hon. member for Davenport stated that the Chair called, "carried, carried". I very seldom say that; some hon. members often call "carried", but there is no desire on my part to rush or press the committee unduly.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The sum of $93,421,100 is a large amount to pass in a few minutes' time.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I thought we might have to pause for a while because of the Hansard reporters, who have been writing in the dark, but now that they have some light we may be able to carry on.
72537-213*

War Appropriation-Air Services


John Ritchie MacNicol: We cannot read the figures we have before us.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Has the department any control or management over the expenditures or the training syllabu? of the Royal Air Force schools in Canada?


Charles Gavan Power: The Royal Air Force schools in Canada are now part and parcel of the combined joint air training plan, and for purposes of expenses, control and administration they are under the control of the Royal Canadian Air Force.


Ernest George Hansell: The discussion has been very lively for the last few minutes, but perhaps we are still in the dark. Personally I do not expect the Minister of National Defence for Air to be able to answer every question in regard to the building programme of his department, and I will tell the committee why. I think it is generally recognized that the purchase of land, the letting of building contracts, the supplying of materials and so forth come under the Department of Munitions and Supply. I point out at this time, and suggest to the minister that I may elaborate upon it further when the estimates of the Department of Munitions and Supply come up, that I think it will be discovered that the engineers, perhaps the architects and others who come into the picture at the commencement of any building operation, have erred in their plans and their judgment too many times, with the result that when construction has been completed something has been found to be faulty or something has been discovered which has put the government to tremendous expense in connection with some mistake or something unforeseen which should have been discovered by the engineers or those responsible for letting the contract in the first place. I do not expect the minister to be able to answer all those questions, because in my understanding he is concerned with training men. He knows the location of these schools, of course; he knows the personnel, and so on, but I doubt whether he knows very much about the materials that go into the buildings.


Charles Gavan Power: I am afraid I must take some responsibility for that, because the plans and specifications are drawn up by my department, so that really I would be responsible for what the hon. member has mentioned. Those were the questions that were asked this afternoon by the hon. member for Vancouver South. The Department of Munitions and Supply is our contractor, but we give it the order, so that I must take responsibility at least for that.
[The Chairman.]


Ernest George Hansell: If the minister wishes to take the responsibility for what I have in mind he may do so, but I doubt very much if he will be able to tell us why certain things happened. I shall give him a specific case, and perhaps the Minister of Munitions and Supply will deal with it when his department comes on. A certain air training school was located at a certain place.


An hon. MEMBER:: Name?


Ernest George Hansell: It was the air training school at Vulcan in Alberta. This is a large school; the buildings are well constructed, and I have no hesitation in saying that it is a fine location as far as appearances go. But when the school was located there and the construction completed they discovered that they did not have enough water to supply the school. Of course at first sight one would say that surely the engineers would have discovered that, because that is why they are sent out there. But they did not discover it. The result has been that they have had to dig huge ditches and put in huge pipes-pipes which could be used for other purposes in our war effort-in order to bring that water for a considerable distance, not yards but miles. If my memory serves me aright, that water has to be pumped about ten miles.
I mention that only as one instance. I do not know how often these things happen throughout the country. I am not offering severe criticism at the moment; I am using this only as an illustration. Surely we should have engineers capable of discovering these things before a project is commenced, and I might add that the particular project to which I have referred was not one of the early ones; it was completed only recently. Surely by this time the engineers should have learned that one of the essential things in connection with an air school is an adequate water supply.
Another matter to which I should like to direct the minister's attention has to do with the salvaging of materials after the construction of a school has been completed. I believe I can say-and the minister can correct me if I am wrong-that there is nothing salvaged after construction work is completed; that the contractors themselves will sell that material and that the government will not receive any benefit from the sale of it. How much it amounts to, I do not know; it may not amount to much. On the other hand it may amount to a great deal. I do not know whether a check is made of how much material is necessary for a building, but I do know that these air training schools are well built.

I have no complaint about that; they should be well built. There is a tremendous amount of material used in them, and also a tremendous amount left over when a building is completed.
I moved for a return some time ago in which I asked the names of those who had bid on salvage, together with any offers accepted. The only offers made were in respect of old buildings on the locations-farm houses and barns. I shall have more to say on that point later on. I know for a fact, however, that much of that material was sold. I know it because I know the people who bought it. The return did not indicate that the government had received payment for that material. How much it might have been, I do not know, nor do I know how much it was sold for.


Roy Theodore Graham: In the contract to which the hon. member refers, was there a tender price by the contractor, in which he supplied material; or did the government supply the material?


Ernest George Hansell: I do not know. Is the hon. member referring to the building of the school?


Roy Theodore Graham: Would that not be an important point?


Ernest George Hansell: It might be. The minister can give us that information, if he wishes.


Charles Gavan Power: Is this at Vulcan?


Ernest George Hansell: Yes, the Vulcan school. The hon. member for Swift Current has said
Combined training organization
Home war	
Overseas	
Total	
4, 1943
War Appropriation-Air Services
that this is an important matter. Well, it might be important. But if it is, then surely there should be some check on the amount of material wasted, because, so far as I can see, if there is a clause in the contract stating that the contractor will own the material that can be salvaged, we had better make a careful check. Under such a contract he could waste a large amount of material.
These air training schools are not little shacks out on the prairie. They are huge institutions-and I am glad they are, because our boys should have the very best training and the very best accommodation. I am not complaining about that. But I do say that either the Minister of National Defence for Air or the Minister of Munitions and Supply should answer this question in respect of buildings.
I have another question on the order paper, but if I asked with respect to it, before it was answered, I might be accused of hitting below the belt. The point I make is that engineers should be absolutely qualified, and should make no mistake when they decide on a location for a school. The plans should be complete, so that no mistakes can be made which would lead to turning down the whole scheme, or to having water piped in for a considerable distance.


Charles Gavan Power: I have a ibreak-down with respect to travel and transportation, and freight and drainage. It is as follows:
Travel and	Freight
transportation and drainage	Total
$13,255,695	$3,500,000	$16,755,6952,058,173	1,902,000	3,960,173117,200	5,000	122,200$15,431,068	$5,407,000	$20,838,068


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has any part of this item to do with supplying water for the school at Mossbank, Saskatchewan?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes; it would be somewhere in there.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have neither my figures nor my maps before m.e, but I understand that the water for Mossbank comes from the water supply at Moose Jaw. Does it?


Charles Gavan Power: I know there was considerable trouble about the water supply at Moss-bank a year ago, and I cannot tell my hon. friend whether it has been remedied. I would not think the water would come from Moose Jaw, because that is a long distance away,
about forty miles, I believe. I shall try to find out whether the trouble has been remedied, and where the water comes from.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And where does the water come from to replenish the water supply in Moose Jaw, from which the Mossbank supply is drawn.


Charles Gavan Power: I think it was carried.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not know whether the water is supplied from a point near River-hurst on the Saskatchewan.


Charles Gavan Power: My impression is that it had to be carried a long distance to that school, and there was considerable trouble about it.

War Appropriation-Air Services


John George Diefenbaker: I know something about this matter. Two locations, namely Mossbank and Dafoe in Saskatchewan, were chosen as locations, before any question of water was placed before officials of the Department of Transport. Then, when the airport was established at Mossbank I believe about $110,000 had to be spent before they got water. During that period a man hauled it.


Charles Gavan Power: Correct.


John George Diefenbaker: Following up what my hon. friend has said, I should like to obtain a record showing the cost for the securing of water at various airports. I understand the International Water Supply Company of London, Ontario, was hired to go out .-and locate water. Unfortunately, however, at iwo points in Saskatchewan locations were anade and establishments begun before any tfjuestion was raised as to the necessity of having available an adequate water supply.


Charles Gavan Power: I said in the house that this was the driest country on earth. It may be filled with lakes and rivers, but it seems to me that every time we started a school we ran short of water.


John George Diefenbaker: You picked two of the driest in the dry.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the minister not think the original survey plans in connection with the building of an airport or a school at Mossbank should have shown whether there was any water for a camp, or whether water was available?


Charles Gavan Power: This was one of the early camps, and we were in a great hurry at that time to bring schools in and have them completed, so that we could place pupils in them. If I understand correctly, this contract was given by	the	Minister	of	Munitions	and
Supply, and I understand a contract was let to the International Water Supply company to find water for these camps throughout Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I shall leave my question, then, for	the	Minister	of	Munitions	and
Supply.


Charles Gavan Power: But I wish to say to my hon. friend that when we could not get water fast enough in certain cases we have had to make our own arrangements to have water carried to us. That is the matter to which he is referring, in connection with Mossbank. We paid for the carrying of water to Mossbank, because we had not developed a well which could feedl us sufficient water. I think part of what my hon. friend wants would be under

me, and the part about having made provision and having had the foresight to get the water would be under the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I hope the minister will not take any question I ask as criticism.


Charles Gavan Power: No; I am thankful for your having asked them.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Those who know anything about the situation in that part of Saskatchewan realize the difficulty there is in getting water. My memory is that Moose Jaw is now trying to obtain water from the Saskatchewan river near Riverhurst. I believe a small dam has been built in the river and the water is to be or is being pumped over the height of land, which is rather high, and carried by pipe or trench to the water field that supplies Moose Jaw. If the airport and the school at Mossbank get their water from Moose Jaw, I was wondering if the government considered it their responsibility to pay part of the cost of building the conduit from the Saskatchewan river to the field from which Moose Jaw gets its water, and also part of the cost of pumping the water up over the height of land. If the government has paid anything, I should like to know how much. They should pay something, at least the cost of supplying their own water requirements.


Charles Gavan Power: I shall find out.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Could the minister give us similar information in connection with Dafoe and Assiniboia; that is, as to the condition of the water supply and what money has been spent, since these airports were opened, to haul water? I notice there is quite a large item for hauling water at Mossbank.


Charles Gavan Power: Right.


Roy Theodore Graham: In answer to a question by myself the minister stated that the Royal Air Force schools have now been made a part of the commonwealth air training plan. Does that mean that the appointment of officers will now be made by the minister's department?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


Roy Theodore Graham: Are they still to be made by the Royal Air Force?


Charles Gavan Power: I shall answer my hon. friend by quoting the agreement.


Roy Theodore Graham: In regard to pay and allowances.

War Appropriation-Air Services


Charles Gavan Power: The agreement is dated June 5, 1942, and covers the administration of Royal Air Force schools in Canada. It amends and extends the British commonwealth air training plan. I quote from page 14 of appendix 2 as follows:
The R.A.F. units in Canada will he administered by the Royal Canadian Air Force in the same manner as units constituted under the British commonwealth air training plan, provided that:
(i)	they will preserve their R.A.F. identity.
(ii)	existing arrangements concerning consultation with, and concurrence of, the United Kingdom air liaison mission on personnel and administrative matters will remain. Such arrangements may be varied by agreement between the governments of the United Kingdom and Canada, as required by circumstances.


Charles Edward Johnston: I think one of the first things that should be taken into consideration when deciding on an airport is the available water supply. Before any development is carried on at all, it should be definitely decided whether a water supply is available. However, that is not what I rose to speak about. I do not know whether the minister will be able to answer this question, but it has to do with airports. I have received certain correspondence from the amalgamated building workers of Canada, Calgary unit No. 1, which is located at the supply depot. It would appear that the cost of living bonus is paid to civilian carpenters working on this job, while the carpenters who are in the civil service, although at one time they did receive this bonus, are not being paid a bonus. This creates a good deal of hard feeling. At first the government employees received a cost of living bonus of three cents an hour, but this was stopped and since that time the 'bonus that was paid has been collected back. I will read a portion of the letter I received, as follows:
Cost of living bonus to civilian employees of the R.C.A.F. in all commands has been paid in accordance with the provisions of R.C. 6702, of August 26, 1941.
When the bonus was paid there was no objection. The letter continues:
In July, 1942, on receipt of Department of Labour correction sheet authorizing wage payment of ninety-five cents per hour plus cost of living bonus of three cents per hour to carpenters in Calgary and zone, a direction was issued in error by the air officer commanding No. 4 air training command, that wages and bonus were to be paid at such rate effective from August 1, 1942.
Later on not only was the bonus cut off, but the government is charging the employees for the overpayment. The net result is that they do not receive the bonus and are having to pay back that which they did receive, and
the civilian employees are still being paid' this bonus. There is a difference in wages to men who are doing the same type of work. I understand that a conference was to be called in an effort to bring about some uniformity in the wages paid to the civil service employees and the civilian employees. I will read another portion of this letter dated May 18, 1943, which I received from the treasury office, so that the minister will see exactly what has happened. I quote:
This department has had occasion previously to consult with the national war labour board regarding the difference in bonus payable to employees of the public service and those of private industry. We were advised some months ago that the situation had become so confused that a conference was being arranged with government departments and agencies concerned with the intention of establishing a uniform procedure which would result in equalizing bonus rates and payments to all civilian employees engaged in the same type of work in the same district or zone. However, to date no such conference has taken place so far as we are aware and until such conference is arranged and direction given this department has no alternative but to pay bonus to prevailing rate employees in accordance with bonus payment procedure previously laid down.
Apparently the question, has risen on many occasions; the department is cognizant of that disparity, and there are hopes that something may be done. But they say that a conference was expected to be called. May I ask whether that conference was ever called?


Charles Gavan Power: I never heard about it.


Mr. JOHNSON (Bow River):: Apparently
there is considerable hard feeling about the matter, especially now when the government is paying a bonus to civilian employees and taxes these other people for payments already made through an error in the pay office. I do not know whether that would come under the minister's department, but I hope he will take note of it and do something about it.


Charles Gavan Power: I will look it up in Hansard and have it checked.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: I understand that the
Royal Air Force come within this estimated expenditure. Is that right?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Personnel, supplies and services: Food, medical supplies and services, clothing and personal equipment, $50,451,918.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: I wish first of all to congratulate Commodore Tice of the Royal Canadian Air Force Medical Service upon the pictures he has shown in

War Appropriation-Air Services
the railway committee room and upon the way in which he is trying to handle the venereal disease problem. I hope he goes all the way through with it, because it is absolutely necessary that that disease be checked not only in the army, navy and air force, but also in civilian life. May I ask whether our men who fly over enemy country are supplied with sulpha tablets?


Charles Gavan Power: Individually?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes.
I ask because I know that the United States air force at Pearl Harbor were supplied with them and that saved many lives. That is why only three per cent of the casualties died.


Charles Gavan Power: I would not think that the men would be supplied with the tablets individually. I do not know enough about medicine to know how they could administer this drug to themselves. From the little I learned of medicine when I was in the health department I know that sulpha drugs are very dangerous to use except under medical supervision.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
understand that the United States air force took these tablets with them and that the drug saved many severely wounded men from dying.


Charles Gavan Power: I would not know about
that.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister
whether he has given consideration to the point raised by the hon. member for Renfrew South while the army estimates were under consideration by the committee? Not being a medical man I hesitate to pass any opinion with respect to the position which he took, but he indicated that there should be a royal Canadian medical corps which would not be divided between the army, navy and air force. I think the Minister of National Defence rather indicated that there should be some joint system. Has the minister given any consideration to the suggestion of the hon. member for Renfrew South, and would he care to make a statement?


Charles Gavan Power: My officers do not think much of the suggestion. The medical officers of the department say that to a larger extent than was indicated by the hon. member for Renfrew South there is an air specialty, a special need for medical work in research and elsewhere in relation to the air force. I have sent over to my hon. friend' some pamphlets prepared by our medical services. These have been prepared and printed in this expensive

way-I show them to my hon. friend now-by the insurance companies of Canada, for distribution among the civilians of Canada. Here is one entitled, "What they eat to be fit is good for the health of all Canadians." I think this would indicate that in nutrition we are considerably in advance of the ordinary civilian medical practitioner. Our medical officers have gone into nutrition in its relation to flying. They have studied, for instance, what effect riboflavin has on eyesight. That has been carefully studied and many experiments have been made in connection with it. An hon. member spoke of films the other day. We have developed a film based on this training pamphlet. It has been shown recently in the United States. It was shown first of all to our own people and then to insurance executives throughout the country, and recently it was shown in Toronto to the executives of the Twentieth Century Fox Corporation, Famous Players and others. I have received this letter from the head of Famous Players Canadian Corporation wdiich I think would be of interest to put on the record:
We are of the unanimous opinion that this subject, which is so well done^-
It was done by ourselves in association with Associated Screen News.
-can be of inestimable value to the health of Canadian citizens and suggest that, if possible, the R.C.A.F. make the film available for motion picture theatres so that it can be shown to the civilian population throughout Canada.
We think so well of this subject that Famous Players, as a theatre operating company and as a service to the Canadian public, would cheerfully pay for the printing of the necessary positive film in colour to make this subject available for the theatres of Canada. To get proper coverage this would require 12 positive prints. Also, we would order one 35 mm. print in colour which would be delivered to the R.C.A.F. for use as they see fit.
Famous Players operate or have an interest in approximately 340 theatres having a total seating capacity of about 310,000. However, it is not our intention that the film should be shown exclusively in our theatres but it should be made available for all theatres in Canada that wish to show it and we estimate that during the life of this film it will be shown to somewhere around five million people.
Paramount Film Service of Canada have volunteered to distribute this film without charge and Canadian theatre owners generally will be advised through the Canadian Motion Picture Trade papers that this picture will be available for use in their theatres by applying to Paramount Film Service.
That w'as a specialty, nutrition, developed by our Royal Canadian Air Force Medical Service. We have also gone into other spheres, particularly pressure chamber work, blackouts-human black-outs-and things of that

War Appropriation-Air Services
kind. Our people really think they are doing a good job in their particular line, and I do not believe they would be keen on changing over to the army, where a good many of them came from.


Mr. FULFORD:: I should like to call to the attention of the committee the service that is being rendered, by the Red' Cross society in the building up of blood banks. I do not believe there is any other contribution that the Red Cross is making to our war effort which is of more value than the blood banks. I believe the minister will corroborate me when I say that they are being used extensively not only in the air force but in the other two branches of the armed services.
Let me give one specific case. A young pilot officer whom I happen to know was shot down over the Mediterranean while serving in the defence of Malta. He was rushed to hospital in Malta, and one of the first things done for him was to pump blood plasma into his system. There is no doubt that this saved his life. Altogether he had fifteen pints of blood pumped into his system, of which six were of the plasma type collected by the Red Cross. My reason for mentioning that at this time is that I believe there are a great many right here in this House of Commons who would volunteer to give their blood to-morrow if they knew how simple the process was, and go to the Ottawa Red Cross on Metcalfe street. I happen to be a donor, and I can tell the committee frankly that it does not hurt any more to have your blood taken than it does to prick your finger; in fact, apart from having an abnormal thirst, you feel better afterwards than before you go in.
The hon. member for Peterborough West mentioned the efficacy of the sulfa drugs. I believe that blood plasma ranks in importance with the sulfa drugs in saving lives.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I agree with the hon. member on that.


George Taylor Fulford: All hon. members between the ages of twenty-one and sixty years who weigh over 120 pounds and whose blood is up to the proper standard can donate their blood. I know of no greater contribution that they can make to the armed forces of Canada than by becoming blood donors with the Canadian Red Cross.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I am pleased that the hon. member for Leeds brought this matter up, because I know that in the army everything possible is being done to enable men to go to the blood donors' clinics. I have not heard what is being done
in the air force, but I trust that the ground crews, at least, will be able to go to the clinics.
Does the minister know what the findings were in regard to the investigation at No. 35 elementary flying training school, where one man died following toxoid inoculation, on May 19, and a number of others were in the hospital?


Charles Gavan Power: I saw an item in the paper on this matter and have made inquiries. When I last asked, yesterday or the day before, the inquiries were not quite completed. I do know that quite an investigation is going on. A man, whose name I think is Fraser, from the Connaught laboratories of Toronto, also the deputy minister of health for Manitoba, Dr. Jackson, and some other prominent civilians, went out to make inquiries. We are having an inquiry of our own, but I do not think it is completed. It looks as though the incident is one which needs to be thoroughly investigated; one man died and about thirty were laid up as a result of inoculation. Whether the blame is to be ascribed to the persons who did the inoculating, or whether there was something wrong with the material, or whether the incident is the result of some other circumstance, I have not yet been able to ascertain.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is what I wish to find out.


Charles Gavan Power: Yes; I have the matter very much in mind.


Gordon Graydon: In connection with the clothing of the air force, I notice that there is a change in certain branches as far as summer uniform is concerned. Does that apply as well to the women's division?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes. We are going to have another summer uniform. It is out, but I have not seen it yet.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Are the members of the Royal Canadian Air Force who are going on night operations given vitamin A tablets? I believe these tablets are provided in some parts of the United States, also in Great Britain, in large doses.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know. I will find out. I know we are doing our best to see that the eyesight of our men is improved and that they are generally in good condition. I do not know whether vitamin A is what is used.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Vitamin A is supposed to cure night blindness and also a certain amount of colour blindness.

War Appropriation-Air Services


Charles Gavan Power: This new drug, riboflavin is, I believe, supposed to be good for this purpose. I do not know what it is.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It is administered in 50,000 international units.


James Alexander Marshall: Would the minister give the reason for such a decided decrease in the estimated expenditure?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes; we bought a lot of clothing and boots last year and our requirements are provided for well in advance.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
6. Communications:
Signal and wireless equipment, line construction, et cetera, $26,838,773.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Why the increase?


Charles Gavan Power: There is a very big increase in our communication system for the purposes of defence along both coasts largely for what they call fighter control and for land line communication. I think it is eight miles on the Pacific coast and ten miles on the east coast, and is for wireless communications and fighter control facilities.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I believe that in April of last year-I have not the date here-I asked the minister about carrier pigeons. I think that comes under this vote. He refused to answer because it was not in the country's interest.


Charles Gavan Power: Oh; we have carrier pigeons, lots of them.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Then, on August 15, a Toronto paper publishes nearly a full page of information about carrier pigeons. Could the minister tell the committee-


Charles Gavan Power: Did I say last year, that we did not want them?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: No. The minister said it was not in the country's interest-


Charles Gavan Power: -to have carrier pigeons?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Carrier pigeons, yes.


Charles Gavan Power: To disclose whether we had them or not? *


Gordon Knapman Fraser: To tell the house anything about the matter.


Charles Gavan Power: Someone must have just told me I should not; that is all. We have certainly given a lot of publicity to it since.

I do not know why I said that. I might have had a reason. Some of my officers must have told me it should not be disclosed, but I cannot understand why I agreed with them.


Mr. STIRLING:: Could the minister tell us whether all the instruments used, coming under this item, are of Canadian make?


Charles Gavan Power: I could not say. I would not think so. This is largely for wires and wireless.


Grote Stirling: A great deal of equipment comes under it.


Charles Gavan Power: Yes; there is a lot of equipment. I could not give the information now. Of course I can find out. Some equipment may be bought from the United States; some may come from England; but a good part of this is for poles and wires, where it happens to be land line communications, and some is probably in construction, where wires and different communication systems have to come into a sector, or whatever you call it, in this fighter control.


Grote Stirling: My reason for asking the question was that it may be that some of these instruments are made by one of the capital companies which have been set up, and in that case what I should like to find out is whether the capital companies come into competition either with Canadian companies . whose lifework it is to make these instruments, or with instruments which are brought in from other countries.


Charles Gavan Power: Is my hon. friend referring to scientific research?


Grote Stirling: That is it.


Charles Gavan Power: I visited the place once. It is really under my colleague the Minister of Munitions and Supply, as the hon. member knows, but I gathered from conversation there that they do not compete with anybody in this country; that it is pretty nearly all new gadgets which they are making. But I would not be sure about that. That is a company set up by the Minister of Munitions and Supply.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The question I have in mind is one which, if the minister does not object, I will ask on this item relating to clothing. Have any tests been made as to the relative efficiency of shearling and wool clothing? Shearling is the skin of the animal with the fur on it; and the woven wool clothing is the other. There has been quite a controversy. It happens that there is a plant manufacturing it in my constituency.

Questions
Would the minister ask his officers to see if there is any opinion, in the air force on the relative merits of the two? The question has been brought up to me several times.


Charles Gavan Power: I will do so with pleasure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7. Ammunition and bombs, $23,990,000.
Gordon Graydon: I do not want to prevent the item from being carried, but I wish the minister would take an opportunity over the week-end to look up some information for me on a matter which came to my attention only after other items had been passed, so -that I was not able to ask about it then. The suggestion has come from one who is interested in the chaplain service of the air force that some change might profitably be made in connection with the position which the chaplains hold. I am told that they are not in the same position as ordinary officers. I do not know whether this condition applies to all three of the services. I believe they hold some kind of honorary appointment rather than the ordinary position of an officer. I received that complaint by letter this afternoon and I was wondering if the minister would look into it.


Charles Gavan Power: They are honorary officers and they always have been, and the same situation exists in the army. In the navy they have no rank at all, being just chaplains; they are not captains or lieutenant commanders or anything of that kind. However, there must be something in the way of complaint if my hon. friend says so.


Gordon Graydon: Yes. My correspondent
was complaining about that condition. He has been himself in the past an officer, a chaplain officer in the air force-I am not sure-and he complains that there should be no distinction. He states that the chaplains are rendering a great service to the army, the navy and the air force, and there is no reason why they should be called honorary captain or honorary major as the case may be. He thinks they should be in the same position as the others. ,


Charles Gavan Power: I am	under	the	impression
that that has been so from time immemorial.


Gordon Graydon: I	think	that	is so,	butperhaps the minister	will	look	into	the
matter.


Charles Gavan Power: They are only honorary. Does my hon. friend want a decision as to whether we will change the system? I cannot change it between now and Monday. I will look into it.


Gordon Graydon: The minister sometimes takes credit for doing things in a hurry. I do not know how quickly he can do this.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre) the house adjourned at 6:05 p-m.
Monday, June 7, 1943