1943-06-22

INCOME TAX


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. C. W. G. GIBSON (Minister of National Revenue):: On June 15 the hon.
member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) asked whether the time would be extended for the filing of income tax returns for 1942, pointing out that chartered accountants and business firms would find it almost impossible to file their returns by the prescribed date. I said that at that time no change was contemplated; but I should now like to announce that to-day a notice is being sent out to all inspectors of income tax, as follows:
You may advise the public in general that there will be no extension in the time of filing the required individual and corporate income
tax returns which are due on 30th June. This does not apply to the information return known as T2 questionnaire which has been introduced for the first time this year and requires considerable care and attention in its preparation. Inasmuch as it is supplementary to the T2 corporate return this is to advise that penalties will not be imposed in respect to the fiscal year ending 31st December, 1942, if the T2 questionnaire is lodged on or before 31st July, 1943, provided that the T2 questionnaire is signed not only by the required officials of the company but also accompanied by the auditor's supporting certificate, without which the time is not extended. No extension will be granted for the filing of T2 questionnaire in respect of fiscal periods ending after 31st December, 1942.
A considerable amount of work is entailed in the preparing and certifying of this questionnaire, and it is considered that by extending the time for filing it, considerable relief will be afforded.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Of course that is another question. The questionnaire is another document.


Colin William George Gibson: No, it has to be filed with the return.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It has to be filed with the corporate return; but I thought that in the other case referred to the minister was giving consideration to an extension.


Colin William George Gibson: The T2 questionnaire is filed in conjunction with the T2 form, and I understand after consultation with the accountants that it is the T2 questionnaire which has been holding them up, because it requires so much care in preparation, and must be certified by the accountant.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: Did I understand the minister to say that firms whose fiscal year ends later than December 31, 1942, would of necessity have to file form T2 questionnaire before June 30?


Colin William George Gibson: No, they do not file this until six months after the close of the business year, so that they would not be filing it by June 30, in any case.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, June 21, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to his majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

["As I shall not be able to read this in ten minutes I shall leave it for another time. The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) asked if the publication Wings pays for itself. It does not. The monthly revenue more than covers the purchase of materials and the typesetting that is done by a civilian firm. In effect, the only public expense is for salaries of service personnel and for the shipping of the paper to the stations. It is still a new venture and has every right to expect that, as it develops, expenditures will be reduced. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle asked about the cost of publishing Wings. The total cost is $1,487 a month. The revenue for the first three months was $540 a month. The monthly deficit is $947 at the present time. The cost is made up of $346 for materials; $112 for typesetting; $265 for shipping; and $764 for editorial staff; or a total of $1,487.\nThe hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen) asked if buses are attached to the\nPennfield Ridge station to take personnel to the city. Buses are not attached to this station to take personnel to the city. Saint John is thirty-nine miles from the station, and a civilian bus service is in operation. He asked also if orders have been issued to restrict the use of staff cars. The answer is, yes. The King's Regulations and Orders for the Royal Canadian Air Force, Canadian air publication No. 23, gives specific instructions with regard to restricting the use of staff cars. Orders are issued periodically with regard to this procedure.\nThe hon. member for Prince Edward-Lennox (Mr. Tustin) inquired about the cost of posters. One hundred and fifty thousand posters, size twenty-five by thirty-eight inches, were produced at a cost of $25,302, or, roughly, seventeen cents each. Twenty thousand posters in French were produced at a cost of $6,000. Fifty thousand posters in connection with recruiting for the women's division were produced at a cost of $6,900, or, roughly, fourteen cents each.\nThe hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) asked whether helicopters can land on water. They can be fitted with flotation bags which will permit them to be so landed.\nThe hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson) asked if the Jacobs engine has been satisfactory. Since the original teething troubles were overcome, the Jacobs engine has given good satisfaction. A recent survey has shown that accidents on account of engine failure in aircraft fitted with Jacobs engines occur at a rate of only one in about twenty-nine thousand hours of flying, a rate which compares favourably with other engines. I think these are all the questions I can answer before eleven o'clock.\nProgress reported."]
The CHAIRMAN:: We are considering
item 5.


Mr. HOWE:: At the last sitting there was some discussion about the contract for war-time
3876 ,	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Supplies-Housing
houses in the city of Hull. At that time I had not studied the situation as I have this morning. I should like to be fair to the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) and therefore I wish to put on Hansard a reconciliation of the three returns that were filed. Two of the returns were accurate but the third return failed to allow for certain expenditures made at Hull on account of a project at Ottawa for forty houses. The wood work and framing for the Ottawa project were carried out in the plant at Hull, and the charges were carried with the Hull charges for a time and then charged back to Ottawa in the ordinary course. There was one return that failed to take account of that charge against the Hull houses, with the result that the return brought down indicated that the 50-house project cost about $1,000 per house more than it actually cost. If I can place this reconciliation on Hansard, I do not need to read it. It is a series of figures, and my hon. friend will find it is quite satisfactory in reconciling the three returns brought down.


Mr. COLDWELL:: In view of the fact that the minister went after the member for Mackenzie rather hard yesterday on this particular matter and now brings in a report indicating pretty much that the member was correct in his statements-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite the reverse.


Major James William Coldwell: The information that the minister had was wrong. I suggest that care should be exercised about these matters. I had an experience of this sort with the Prime Minister with which I have not done yet. I was given quite a castigating in the house for statements I made which were absolutely correct. Every care should be exercised to see that this kind of thing is not done. I noticed the lecture read to the member for Mackenzie yesterday and I felt he had good reason to resent it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I read no lecture to the member for Mackenzie. He asked whether he could believe my statements. My statements were absolutely correct yesterday, but I found on examining the situation this morning that one of the three returns made failed to make the correction which I have mentioned and indicated a higher cost of the houses than the actual figures show. The other two returns are correct. If my hon. friend is interested in the reconciliation I shall be glad to put it on Hansard. If he is not, I will not.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: I should like to have the information but if this is another set of answers, that is another thing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not another set of answers. With the permission of the committee I would ask that these figures be put on Hansard:
Regarding Hull Costs (As of May 3, 1943)
Total cost per war-time housing books	
Given inreply Votes and Proceedings, No. 22, p. ii, in reply to question No. 2 by Mr. Lockhart.

The breakdown for this is as follows:
Project No. 1-Contract for 100 houses	 $279 073 38
Extras in painting, storm sash, etc.-
Painting	 $ 4,439 46
House numbers	 15 12
Storm sash	10,460 00
*	

 14,914 58
As there are 100 houses in Project No. 1, this equals $2,939.87 per house.
For land, sewers, water, roads, street lighting, heaters, stoves, supervising architect-
$2,928.87 plus $37,982.96 plus $28,750.04 plus $29,886.82______
Total for project No. 1

Project No. 2-Costs per war-time housing field force

25 No. 1 houses-according to exterior finish-from $1,889.13 each
to $1,897.78	 ^ 47,325 85
25 No. 21-according to interior finish-from $2,065.56 to $2,073.76] ]	5l]713 22

...	$ 99,039 07
Administrations building, construction equipment, install stoves, etc... $	4,389 28
Land, sewers, roads, walks, street lighting, landscaping, etc	 37 045 14
Expenditure on wall, floor and roof panels for Ottawa project of
40 houses	 43 593 82

War Appropriation-Supplies
Reconciliation
1.	The $577,604.06 checks with figure used in return to Mr. Lockhart's question Votes and Proceedings, No. 22, p. ii.
2.	In project No. 1, the contract of $279,073.38 plus certain extras amounted to $293,987.96 for 100 houses or $2,939.87 each house. This checks with reply to question by Mr. Lockhart-Votes and Proceedings, No. 22, p. iii.
3.	In project No. 2-It will be seen from cost statement the ayerage cost of houses was $1,980 or if certain items listed as extras are added (represented in the amount of $4,389.28), the average would be $2,068. These sums do not check with the return given Mr. Lockhart in answer to his question "D", Votes and Proceedings, No. 27, p. iii, where the cost was given as $2,941.10-same answer being given to Mr. Nicholson, Votes and Proceedings, No. 19, p. ii.
The reason is that at the time return was made the amount of $43,593.82 of fabricating cost on Ottawa houses included in the statement had not been transferred to that project. So we had a cost of $147,022.17 which gave an average unit cost for the 50 houses of approximately $2,940.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: Under this particular item there are a number of questions I desire to ask, some of which I asked the other day, which so far the minister has not answered. In the statement respecting production of aircraft the minister said the number produced to date is approximately 8,000 planes. I should like to ask him whether the
8,000	planes represent actual production in Canada, except for engines, or whether it includes importations from the United States. On November 14, 1941, the minister gave a statement with regard to the production of planes in this country, and as reported at page 4082 of Hansard, he said:
Our aircraft industry has manufactured in Canada and placed in service since the outbreak of war, or has assembled in Canada, 3,749 aircraft. In addition, we have received from the United States in the same period 1,268 aircraft. The present average rate of production is approximately forty per week for all types, and in this regard it should be pointed out that the present production includes a heavier proportion of advanced trainers and service aircraft than in the earlier months of production.
The other day when I asked the minister why there was a reduction per month in the number of planes being produced, he replied that of course the poundage was very much greater. What has it been each year since 1940? When I look back over the Hansards that I have here, since the outbreak of the war, and read the statements made by the minister at each successive sitting of the house, wherein with pride he pointed to the production of aircraft in Canada and the anticipated increase in production, the statement is so much like the statement he made the other day that I feel justified in asking him now to give the Canadian people the
picture with regard to aircraft production, not in generalities but in particulars, so that people will be able to understand whether or not aircraft production in Canada is in keeping with munitions production and the like. I therefore ask him to give particulars of the different types of planes that have been produced. How many Ansons have been produced since May 14, 1942, at which time the minister stated in the house that production was over 600 planes? Furthermore the minister said-


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us have one question at a time. My memory -perhaps is not as good as my hon. friend's, and he has notes while I have not.
' Mr. DIEFENBAKER: The minister's memory should be fairly good, because that is one question which significantly he has not answered in the past.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The hon. member wishes to know how many Ansons Canada has produced,


John George Diefenbaker: How is that number of 8,000 planes made up? How many Ansons are there and how many of various other types?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As to the number of Ansons, Canada had produced as at the end of May last, 1,850.


John George Diefenbaker: What about the
other types of planes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: What type does the hon. member want to know about?


John George Diefenbaker: The types included in the 8,000 planes which the minister says have been produced in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall be glad to put them on Hansard if my hon. friend wishes. I have never done this before and I think it is breaking the security rules. However, he has asked for it and he can take the responsibility for the answer.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Certainly he will.


John George Diefenbaker: That answer is not fair.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Why not?


John George Diefenbaker: The people of Canada want to know whether or not the flowery statements with respect to production are justified by the facts. If the minister says-and this has always been my attitude-that in the public interest, for security reasons, he cannot furnish this information, then I ask him how it is that information as to production in various types is furnished by others outside of parliament.
War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend says that the people demand to know, and he is a tribune of the people, and therefore I am certainly going to tell him. If I get into trouble, for security reasons, my hon. friend must share the responsibility.
In the field of elementary trainers Canada has built 1,384 Tiger Moths; 10 Menasco Moths; 126 Wireless Moths; 409 Cornell trainers; 431 Fleet 16 trainers, making a total of planes built in the field of elementary trainers of 2,360.
In the field of advanced trainers Canada has built 1,059 Harvards; 51 Norsemen; 101 Fleet 60's; 367 Bolingbrokes; 1,850 Ansons, and 150 Lysanders, making a total in the field of advanced trainers of 3,578.
In the field of service aircraft Canada has built 15 Sharks; 15 Grummonds; 32 Stran-raers; 8 Deltas; 75 Lysanders; 69 Norsemen; 169 Bolingbrokes; 63 PBY boats; 1,451 Hurricanes; 160 Hampdens, and 19 Mosquitos. Those figures are up to the end of May. The figure I gave the other day, of 21 Mosquitos, was up to date.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Nineteen
Mosquitos?


Clarence Decatur Howe: To the end of May. That makes a total of 2,076 service aircraft, and a grand total of aeroplanes built up to the end of May of 8,014.


Richard Burpee Hanson: When was the contract for the Mosquitos let with the de Havilland company on which we had a production of nineteen planes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not the exact date.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was it not placed in the fall of 1941?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The first negotiations were opened in September, 1941.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understand that the contract for the Mosquitos was placed with the de Havilland company late in the fall of 1941, the negotiations having preceded the letting of the contract.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Placed by whom?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not say by whom.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who placed the contract?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I suppose it is the Department of Munitions and Supply. And the production on that contract has been nineteen Mosquitos.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nineteen to the end of May. Let us be accurate at least.


Richard Burpee Hanson: To the end of May. I am quite glad to take the minister's statement. I have been prompted to make this statement because I hold in my hand an article from a weekly journal, dated the 19th of June, entitled "Hatching Mosquitos", and the statements contained in this article are in a degree a reflection on the minister's department and on the production of Mosquitos. The article gives a pretty lurid description of what has happened, I do not vouch for the truth of it, but it is being broadcast throughout the country, and if it is not true the matter ought to be cleared up. If it is true there ought to be an admission on the record. The article starts off by making a declaratory statement:
. Canada's war-time production is the biggest in the world-for its size. The way tanks, guns, planes and all other munitions of war are turned out by the publicity branch of the Department of Munitions and Supply would astonish even the Russians.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What is my hon. friend
reading from?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I will show it to my hon. friend when I am through.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Tell me; I am entitled to know.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is an article by Dennis Pratt in the News.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What News?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Perhaps the minister-


Clarence Decatur Howe: In other words, Judith
Robinson.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not care who it is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am entitled to know.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I said' I would hand the article over to the minister when I am through reading it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Put it on Hansard.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It goes on to say:
A ease in point is the production of Mosquito bombers by the de Havilland Company of Canada. The contract for these planes was placed in the fall of 1941, and almost immediately the publicity branch of Munitions and Supply went into action. It had bombers "in production" at the plant in no time, and then turned its attention to other supplies which needed boosting.
But the actual machines at the plant, having got into production, stayed there and never came out.

War Appropriation-Supplies
Now we have the admission from the minister that in two and a half years only nineteen planes have been produced on this contract up to the end of May.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Exactly how does my hon. friend arrive at two and a half years?


Richard Burpee Hanson: From the fall of 1941 to the fall of 1942 is one year, and now it is the summer of 1943. That is in excess of two and a half years.


Clarence Decatur Howe: One and a half years.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Just under two years-my error. I am not like the minister when I find I am in error I am glad to say that I am mistaken, but the Minister of Munitions and Supply, like most of the members on the treasury benches, never admits an error. I will admit that there is one great exception, and that is the Minister of National Defence for Air. By his very humility and his candor he inspires confidence, which the Minister of Munitions and Supply does not inspire.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Ohl


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right; I hear the jeers from across the line, but I am not impressed by them. It would be far better if we could have a little more candor about these things from the treasury benches, and say we made a mistake.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Let us be careful. The hon. member for Lake Centre challenged my statement on the number of planes produced, and I have given him the production by chapter and verse. Just what is my hon. friend blustering about now? It is all very well to bluster, but it is just as well to keep your feet on the ground.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not usually bluster.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You bluster a great deal.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am not blustering. What I say is this: all down through the years because of the puffing and publicity by the department's publicity branch the Canadian people have been led to believe that production was enormous, immense.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: It is.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The publicity was always in advance of the production. I think I realize some of the reasons why the production did not come up to expectations; there must have been many bottlenecks, many difficulties encountered by the minister. I
think it would be much better for him to be frank and say: We hoped to do thus and so, but for reasons unforeseen we could not do it. That is what I suggest to the minister.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not say that we have done thus and so except in the report I made to parliament, and if my hon. friend can successfully challenge any statement in the report I made to parliament I shall be very glad to have him do so now. Otherwise I think we might very well suspend this attack.


Richard Burpee Hanson: All right;
I am used to taking lectures from across the line, and it does not bother me a bit. I would like the minister to read this article.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am particular about what I read. That is not one of my favourite authors


Richard Burpee Hanson: I see; the minister never wants to learn. I suggest to him that he would be wise to study the criticisms that are made of his department; it might bring constructive and productive results. When I was leader of the opposition I always felt that constructive criticism in newspapers not only had a chastening effect upon my soul but it did me good, and I should think the same thing would apply to the minister. As I said before, the trouble with the minister is that he never admits error, and I suggest that is a weakness. That is why the public have not the confidence they should have had in some of the statements that have been made by the minister's publicity department in the past. The whole history of the Moth contract and the production under that contract is confusing. I do not understand why production has not been greater, and the minister should make that clear. I am not going to blame the minister personally; I think he is just as desirous of seeing production come off the assembly lines of the de Havilland plant as I am.


An hon. MEMBER:: Far more so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Maybe.
I do not know where that came from-


Mr. CLEAVER:: It oame right from here, and I meant it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would expect anything from a back bencher over there. But approaching this matter in the calm light of mild philosophy, if I may use that term, I suggest to the minister that in his statements as to production he should confine himself to what has been done and not give us so much about what is going to be done. That is the point.

War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: When have I given the hon. member anything about what is going to be done? Since my hon. friend has given me his expert opinion, perhaps I might give him the expert opinion of Mr. Butler, the chairman of the board of the de Havilland company in England. I quote from a cable recently received from our London office about Mosquito production:
While Butler admits inevitable mistakes in estimates he states that rate of Canadian production to-day is good and stresses that it compares more than favourably with early production in each of the two factories here.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The statement is that Mosquito production is good?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the date of that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: June 4, 1943.


Major James William Coldwell: Since we are discussing the production of aeroplanes perhaps this would be a good place to ask the minister a couple of questions following the discussion we had yesterday. The minister said he would be glad to tell the house the price per pound of sheet aluminum, and I should like to have that in order to get the record straight. Then I said to the minister yesterday at page 3828 of Hansard:
As I understand it the base price is fifteen cents a pound, Canadian funds, and that to-day we are paying twenty and a half cents a pound.
Mr. Howe: That is right, except that fifteen cents is United States funds.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Major James William Coldwell: I did not understand that yesterday. The base price in Canadian funds is 16 cents?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Major James William Coldwell: Not 16J cents?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. There are certain adjustments. These prices all have delivery points. The 15 cents in American funds is the base,, and to arrive at the Canadian price, adjustments were made against our delivery point as compared to the United States delivery point, and the two represent equal prices, all things being taken into consideration. The actual price came out at sixteen and a very small fraction, and it was made sixteen flat.


Major James William Coldwell: And is the 5i cents in Canadian or United States funds?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is in Canadian funds.


Major James William Coldwell: So the last adjustment gave us a price of 21J cents a pound for the aluminum, 16 plus 5J?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is right.


Major James William Coldwell: That is for the ingots?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Major James William Coldwell: What is the price per
pound of sheet aluminum, which is required by the companies who are making aeroplanes and so on?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The price of aluminum sheet of common gauge, which means the standard alloy-these sheets are an alloy of aluminum -is 25 cents; that is the base price, with extras up to 35 cents for extra gauges. My hon. friend knows how sheet metal is sold. The base price is 25 cents, and the prices for common gauge run up to 35 cents; there is a long price list.


Major James William Coldwell: Is that per pound?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I do not know just
what is put in the alloys; and perhaps my hon. friend is not interested in this price, but for the strong alloy the base price is 35 cents and for certain gauges it runs up to 50 cents a pound. For the rods, common gauge, which compare with the common gauge sheets, the base price is the same, 25 cents running up to 35 cents for odd sizes. For the strong alloy in the rods, the price runs from 35 cents to 50 cents.


Major James William Coldwell: These are the base
prices?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These are the actual prices.


Major James William Coldwell: The base price is from 25 cents to 35 cents?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Twenty-five cents. Always in sheet metal there is a certain gauge which is considered the base price, and gauges above and below that have higher prices, due to mechanical differences.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Can the minister tell
the committee what percentage of duralumin is used in a modem fighting plane? I understand that the greater part of the metal used is this hard, high tension alloy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It varies greatly as between
planes, as my hon. friend will easily understand. We would need to know the particular plane in question, and check back on it.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Take a Hurricane, for
instance.

War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: That plane weighs about
seven thousand pounds, and the duralumin probably would amount to about 25 per cent of the weight of the plane. That is as near as I can give it to my hon. friend.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Can the minister tell us whether the number of Ansons he mentioned includes those which were shipped to Canada from England and assembled here?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, there were 1,900 Ansons
that came from England, which were assembled here, and those were entirely outside the figures I gave my hon. friend.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Then there were 1,850
produced here and 1,900 shipped and assembled here?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: Did any part of
the 8,000 planes represent parts manufactured in the United States, brought to Canada and assembled here into planes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; the only part brought
in from the United States was the engine.


Mr. CHURCH:: I have one or two general questions I should like to put to the minister. Last night there was some discussion as to the duty of a member of parliament in connection with the various war plants under the control of the minister. I was chairman of the Toronto harbour commission when the plant referred to last night by hon. gentlemen to my left was brought to the city of Toronto in the last war. Since this war began I have taken it to be my duty not to enter a war plant unless I was invited, and I have never received an invitation. One reason has been that since the war began we were supposed to have an honourable agreement among ourselves, as members of the House of Commons, to conduct our affairs during the war without regard to political considerations at all, in order to attain an all-out war effort in this country following the practice that has been adopted and so well carried out in the old country. There the labour unions agreed with the government that there would be no more peace ballots and no more general strikes until Hitler was beaten.
There are no labour unions under the axis powers; they were all abolished. There would be none in this country or on the continent of North America if we should lose this war. This is the most critical year of the whole war; and while I have in my constituency a great many people who work in these plants I have told them that I do not think it is my duty to interfere as to the merits of rival
unions, since the onus is upon the government of the day to decide all matters in regard to labour conditions and the conduct of this war. I can tell you, however, that those who are serving in the armed forces, especially in the citizens' army, are doing more work twenty-four hours a day for $1.30 than many people working in our factories at much higher wages. I see these men in uniform on the trains; I know thousands and tens of thousands of them in the three services and I can tell you that the people at the front and those in the services in this country are wondering what we are doing over here, why we are meddling and interfering as we are in war plants and strikes. I have no objection to the stand taken by hon. members to my left; it is their privilege. But they are not the only labour party in the House of Commons. Hon. members in this part of the house have taken the stand that we should not use the war to advance our party. In fact I had not been in a munitions plant since the war started until last Friday, when for about half an hour I visited the de Havilland plant. With the two labour unions contending for mastery in this country, it is the duty of the government to step in with a strong national win-the^war labour policy. The onus is upon the government and it is the government's function, so long as it is in office to see that the war work is carried on and that the war is paramount until Hitler is beaten.
May I say a few words regarding the fifty-mile bus rule. I hope this absurd regulation will be abolished by the minister as soon as possible, because it reacts unfavourably against the troops and their families in various parts of the country. And I can say this further, regarding housing, that if we wait for the government to supply houses in Toronto, both for war workers and the civilian population, we will wait until doomsday. If the government would remove the restraint from private builders, and back them with government finance, with moneys under the housing act obtained through the banks, there would be plenty of houses around the Toronto district, especially houses of the smaller type. If the government would see fit to adopt a forward policy' on such a scheme by obtaining money from the banks in the usual way, and thereby help builders to obtain more materials, the situation would be far better both now and after the war.
I believe coal is more or less under the control of the Minister of Munitions and Supply. The shortage is to a great extent a question of transportation and delivery. Is it or is it not true that the municipalities have been promised that they will get their supplies of coal? One of the most dangerous men on
War Appropriation-Supplies

the north American continent is "General" John L. Lewis. I have read the speeches on May 1, May 7 and other dates and heard the radio addresses of that very able man who is President of the United States. I commend the strength of the President to the government of Canada. Let this government adopt some of the measures taken over there to defeat these trusts.
I have no complaint against the hon. member who brought up this question-far from it. In a great many ways I sympathize with labour in some war plants, and I have always been friendly to labour in the province from which I come. But I do say that when our troops overseas are fighting for $1.30 or $1.50 a day, it is not the time for us to have any division as to who shall have control in this plant, that plant or any other plant. We need a national labour policy in Canada, not only for the duration of the war, but when the war is over.
I do not wish to delay the passage of the minister's estimates. I do not know whether the Gallup poll applies to any of the industries over which he has control. But I can tell you that this Gallup poll, in the way it is being conducted throughout Canada, with all these galloping ghosts behind the scenes, is a real source of mischievous propaganda of all kinds for the prevention of the proper conduct of the war. It is political propaganda. The information is being given out by certain newspapers for purposes of political propaganda, and I wish to object to that practice. I hope the minister, his department and the government in general will have nothing to do with the Gallup poll, because it is all "Gallup" and no poll. No one knows who is behind it; no one knows who votes. I doubt if any ministers on the front benches have voted; I doubt if the leader of the opposition has a vote. I can tell you that this poll is no help to the war effort at all; it is a help to political propaganda, and to help some of those people in Canada who think that the empire should be allowed to go by default. This empire will never be allowed to go by default, and Canada is not going to be talked out of the British empire; Canada will have to be fought out of the British empire.


Mr. GRAYDON:: On an earlier occasion and again to-day the hon. member (Mr. Church) discussed the fifty-mile bus limit, but I do not believe an answer has been given by the minister. Perhaps the matter has been overlooked. The hon. member referred particularly to transportation of our armed forces. He has taken a vigorous stand with respect 
to this matter as it affects our fighting men.
I believe the minister might very well give the committee an answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The transit controller is '
responsible for transportation within communities, and transportation supplemental to communities, such as interurban bus lines. The hon. member knows that all our transportation is overloaded. Those responsible for allocating transportation facilities have undertaken-and I think successfully-to see that some means of transportation is available to every man who needs to travel. But in doing so they found it necessary to eliminate duplicate means of travel. In other words, if a man can travel by train to his destination, generally speaking he does not have the alternative of travelling by bus to the same destination. As all hon. members know, in general, cities served by railroads are also served by bus lines. For example, in pre-war days one could travel from Windsor to Toronto on either of two railway lines, and he could also travel by bus between those two cities. That was a desirable situation when we could afford to be lavish in our transportation facilities. However, when the war came along a problem developed, having to do with taking care of the short-haul passenger. I do not refer to the man who travelled from Windsor to Toronto, but rather to the man who wished to travel possibly from some country point between those two cities, to Windsor or to Toronto. With the congestion of travel, under the old system a bus would take a full load at Windsor, for Toronto, and would deliver that load in Toronto. That meant that the man living between the two cities was deprived of a necessary bus service, a service which is required to permit him to travel.
The fifty-mile rule was framed' to prevent the sort of travelling on buses I have described. It was aimed to prevent a bus from filling up at one terminal and moving to a terminal sixty or seventy miles away with a full load of passengers. The result of the fifty-mile service on the plan I have outlined is that passengers can take a bus at Toronto for any point between Toronto and some twenty miles east of Windsor. In other words, that area is served. Similarly, a man living more than twenty miles from Toronto can take a bus and travel to Windsor. But a man cannot take a bus in Toronto and travel on that bus to Windsor.
We have no objection to a man's travelling from Toronto to Windsor, but he can dd his travelling on either of two lines of railways. The fifty-mile rule has accomplished its

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objective. We have been, able to provide a bus service for people to whom other forms of transportation are not available. It has not worked a hardship on the bus lines because there is plenty of travel of the type I mentioned to use the full capacity of the buses. It has not worked any hardship on the man desiring to travel from Toronto to Windsor. He knows very well that when he gets on the bus it will not take him to Windsor, and that he will have to get out when he has travelled fifty miles. Therefore that man travels by train. Now that the situation is understood I challenge anyone in this committee to tell me of a case of real hardship arising out of the fifty-mile rule.


Mr. SLAGHT:: I shall detain the committee but a short time, but I should like to refer briefly to what has been said by the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson). I see he is visiting on this side of the chamber. If he has had a change of heart and has come over here to support the government and the Minister of Munitions and Supply, perhaps it will not be necessary for me to say what I intended to say. However, assuming that he is going to return I shall continue. In his attack upon the Minister of Munitions and Supply he indicated that the minister was too much inclined to look to the future, to indicate what he hoped and what we all hoped this country would ultimately do in the matter of production. He said that instead of doing that, he ought to furnish more figures and records. He was challenged by the minister, who then paid no more attention to it-I think he was right-to give a single instance in which the minister had quoted figures which he had hoped to attain in the future but which had been wrong. I would commend to the hon. member for York-Sunbury the expression that there is always a far horizon for onward-looking men.
In many matters I have agreed with the hon. member, because I think during the last three years he has made some contributions to the discussion of the war effort. However, I believe if he had considered a little he would not have made the criticism he did. To the Minister of Munitions and Supply alone is due the magnificent Trans-Canada Air Lines which is going to play such a great part in the reconstruction of the nations of the world as soon as this war is over. It is easy to say that men look too much to the future, but I do not believe that that is the kind of criticism the people of Canada are seeking. They want men who have the vision to look into the future, men who are capable of converting this country as it has been converted
from peace time pursuits of turning out ploughshares into one of the greatest war production countries in the world.
For the benefit of the hon. member for York-Sunbury, if he is not content to take my statement, let me indicate what that grand little woman who addressed this house on June 16 said. She is reported on page 3721 of Hansard as follows:
. . . and the fact that per capita Canada has produced more for the war effort than any other member of the united nations are indicative of Canada's will to fight to victory.
That is the record we have among the nations of the world. Does my hon. friend dare to challenge her statement? If he is not content with that, let me remind him what Winston Churchill said on March 6 about Canada's war effort in production and in every other way. Mr. Churchill in a considered cable to the Prime Minister had this to say, as will be found on page 1023 of Hansard:
In the darkest days Canada, under your leadership, remained confident and true. Now the days are brighter, and w'hen victory is won, you will be able to look back with just pride upon a record surpassed by none.
Neither our Prime Minister nor our Minister of Munitions and Supply has attempted to take to himself personal credit for the war effort of Canada. They are both always careful to make it clear to the people that those responsible for the war effort which has produced the tributes of the kind I have just quoted are the men and women, the common people of Canada. There has never been any attempt to take unto the government the credit for the war effort of this country. ,1 should be the last to support a government which attempted to usurp the greater credit for the effort. The words of the hon. member are given heed to by the people of this country and it ill behooves him to attack the minister who more than any other-I am not trying to detract from what is due to or to make comparisons with the other hard-working ministers of the government-is responsible for the results of our war effort. It ill behooves a responsible member of this house to send out to the people of Canada that type of personal criticism. I should like to envision the kind of munitions and supply effort we would have had if the hon. member who has been the critic of to-day had been in charge of this department of government. The department and the minister deserve the greatest meed of praise and credit that the people of Canada can accord to them, aside altogether from any political credit or party spirit. I do hope the hon. member for York-Sunbury will not feel that I am putting it too strongly when I deprecate the kind of personal attack I had to sit here and listen to this afternoon.

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Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Chairman, far be it from me to keep the hon. member for Parry Sound in his seat. If he does not like what I am saying he can get up and leave the precincts of the house whenever he wishes. I am at a loss to understand the basis of his lecture to me. I have a responsibility in this house, just as has the hon. member for Parry Sound. Judging by the records of the house I think I take them more seriously than he does. The hon. member for Parry Sound cannot have it both ways. In one breath he said that the ministry, the Prime Minister and the Minister of Munitions and Supply, do not take any personal credit for what has been accomplished by the Canadian people, that it is all the result of the efforts of the Canadian people. Then in the next breath he pours out an encomium upon the head of the Minister of Munitions and Supply which must have made the minister blush. As I say, he cannot have it. both ways.
My quarrel with the Minister of Munitions and Supply is not a personal one. What I say is that his publicity department is doing too much puffing in connection with the advance notices it sends out as to what is going to be done. The performance has never measured up to the .promises that have been made.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: That is not what the
hon. member suggested.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Canadian people will no longer accept that kind of propaganda. That is the weakness of the wartime information board. The people do not believe what they say; they do not listen to the canned music which is being turned out by so many government departments. We have forty-seven different varieties of propaganda. I am told that there are no less than forty-seven publicity agents in the government turning out canned1 music for the people of Canada which most of us throw in the waste-paper basket. The newspapers discount all this; they do not publish it. What we would like is more factual information such as the minister has given us this afternoon. I do not feel a bit chastened by the lecture given by the hon. member for Parry Sound. I am quite content to put my performance, to put what I have done in this house toward the war effort of this country, against the record of the hon. member for Parry Sound.


Mr. McIYOR:: I would like to add to the list of great men who paid their tribute to the minister, the hon. member for Parry Sound. The leader of the official opposition and the

leaders of the other parties and many other hon. members paid their tribute to him, and by doing so have, I believe, added to their stature. Yet this committee has been sitting here since Friday of last week and we have got through only five items. Let us be consistent.


Thomas Langton Church: I ask the minister to make a little better explanation of the regulations with regard to travel. The minister must admit that the city of Toronto, through its transportation commission and otherwise, has given his department a great deal of support, or he would not have been able to locate his plants where he did. Yet we in Toronto are getting little or nothing by way of concession. I have been asked to inquire whether the minister is not now able ta make some decision with regard to the fifty mile rule; and if not, can he not make some arrangement with the national railways about transportation, instead of continuing to rely on the old Noah's Ark cars which are utilized to and from Camp Borden on the national railways, while women are charged $2 and $2.40 and children $1.15 or thereabouts to visit the camps. Something should be done to relieve this situation.
The official oposition has given the government pretty good support, much better support than it deserved in the light of some of the answers which have been returned by one minister to questions asked by us on matters of public importance, questions designed to strengthen and support the government in a constructive way.
I ask the minister if he cannot give us some reply with regard to the provision of gasoline and rubber. An appeal was made last Easter and is repeated on every public holiday to the public to refrain from travelling, and soldiers and their families are not allowed transportation facilities, yet when I look around the Toronto district I see large numbers of government officials, not members of the cabinet or of their own civil departments, but connected with controls and subcontrols, making free use of facilities denied to others. It is high time that we paid some attention to the men who are fighting overseas. All our home defence and defence at home organization will not amount to a snap of the finger in the winning of this war, in spite of the great expenditure it entails in gasoline and rubber and other necessary supplies. I ask the minister to confer with his colleagues and see whether something cannot be done to give the troops who are in the camps the proper means of getting home, instead of compelling them to walk along the highway thumbing rides while carry-

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ing grips and perhaps a hundred pounds of equipment. The army is the forgotten agency.
I have been in some of the camps, and it is clear to me that this is so when one sees the large number of these men still walking around in winter clothing, with no facilities for getting to their homes either by the highways or on the trains. It is a strange state of affairs that we should allow these estimates to go through without a protest, and I protest now. Wars are won by soldiers and sailors and airmen fighting at the front, and when I see some of our army in their Little Lord Fauntleroy costumes on the street cars, it seems to me a reflection on the House of Commons that we allow such a state of affairs to exist, while private transport or the buses and trains are available for civilians and booked by controls weeks ahead, and the railways are making fabulous sums. See what happened when the delegates of the empire parliamentary union arrived last evening at the depot. Between two trains, one coming in and one going out, without any guidance for passengers, hundreds of people might have been killed between the two tracks so close to both trains. When you make a complaint you cannot get results but you are told that you are making a personal attack.
I refer to this because I have seen something of the sufferings of the men in the army during the present war. I wish others could see what I have seen-women and children walking several miles to get on the trains. I do not wish to hold up the estimates, but I hope the three defence ministers and the Minister of Transport will take up this matter and see if something cannot be done, in dog days like these, to help the forces.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Would the minister tell us what is the average cost to the Canadian government of each of the several types of planes that are being manufactured in Canada? The ones I have in mind particularly are the Lysanders, the Harvards, the Ansons, the Mosquitos, the Hurricanes, the Tiger Moths and the Bolingbrokes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have not the costs here. Possibly I could get some of them. I have not the figures for the Mosquito or the Lancaster, as the costs of these planes have not yet been established. My hon. friend will understand that the production of at least 100 planes is necessary before production gets stabilized to the point where costs can be determined. Perhaps I can give him information on some of the other types of planes, but I do not happen to have that information here.


John Horne Blackmore: Could the minister give that to us to-morrow?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will try.


John George Diefenbaker: I do not quite understand the attitude of some members on the government side in condemning the opposition for endeavouring to secure information regarding one of the largest items of expenditures parliament has to deal with, a matter of approximately $700 millions last year and an anticipated expenditure this year of $316 millions less reduction in revolving funds, together with hundreds of millions of dollars of expenditures for and on behalf of the British government. As a matter of fact, we do not properly examine the expenditures which are being made. We cannot do so, for we are invariably met with the type of answer given by the minister a few moments ago to the hon. member for Lethbridge, that the information in regard to costs is not available in certain particulars and regarding certain planes. Yet the minister, in answer to a question from myself, made the statement in the house the other day that we are producing planes in Canada at a price which would permit us to compete with the United States of America.


Clarence Decatur Howe: "Does" permit us.


John George Diefenbaker: That being so, there is only one way in which the minister is able to make such an optimistic statement, and that is on the basis of information which he has. He has cost accountants, he has an examination made regularly of these various plants; and we want to know what the costs are. As a matter of fact there is no organization in connection with the Department of Munitions and Supply which can so properly be called the department of mysteries and surprises as can this particular part of the department. In everything else, all of us agree and are proud of the fact that Canada is making a good effort in the production of munitions and supplies. I ask the government to visit the aeroplane plants in Canada, send investigators into those plants, talk to the employees free from any surveillance on the part of officials of the department or revelation to them of the information that they give, and, Mr. Chairman, they will tell a story of indifference, of laxity, and of inefficiency-


Clarence Decatur Howe: And you believe it, I suppose?


John George Diefenbaker: -in the production of aircraft in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: You believe that, I suppose?


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, let us know if there is no foundation for these stories. Let us have the information. Take
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the production of Mosquitos. I realize that it requires months to tool up and prepare for production. If my information is correct, it took eleven months to tool and plan and prepare material and the like and to complete other preliminaries to production, before the first plane was built. We have been in production since September last. The minister states that one must be accurate in the figures he gives, and he corrected the hon. member for York-Sunbury a few moments ago for being two planes out in the numbers produced to date. We want accurate figures. We want to know whether these planes are being produced, as they should be produced in the fourth period of the war, economically, having regard to all the circumstances. Canada produced twenty-one planes since September last. What is the number of man-hours that have been expended on each of these planes? The only information I have comes from men who desire to see our fighting aircraft multiplied so that we shall take our part in the air war that is coming and which at present is being waged, and by which Germany is going to be brought down. We want to contribute our part, and it is our duty as an opposition, if there is inefficiency, that it shall not be covered up by optimistic statements in the House of Commons, unaccompanied by actualities within the factories themselves.
I speak now subject to correction, but the information I have received is that so far as Mosquitos are concerned, to date, on the basis of employment in the plant, not less than
570,000	man-hours have been used for each of these planes built. Having regard to the weekly wage payroll of de Havilland, the costs in Canada are simply overwhelming and economically unjustified so far as this particular type of plane is concerned. The minister a while ago read aloud a laudatory letter from the de Havilland Corporation of Great Britain to the de Havilland Corporation of Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is nothing of the kind.


John George Diefenbaker: If it be true why was the change made? Why was Glassco placed in charge as controller? Nobody can say seriously to-day that everything was well in this plant, not even the minister. Where the minister has done well he has received the commendation of this opposition and of the people of Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What day was that?


John George Diefenbaker: Well, Mr. Chairman, day after day that is his one criticism if we do not meet him with a spontaneity of praise that has all the appearance of a directed

calisthenic drill, if we do not commend him; but if we think there is something that must be improved he becomes annoyed. With his great organizing ability, he is too prone to retain men in their positions, too loyal to them, even after he finds they are not doing the job he expects them to do. I say this on the basis of information that I have been able to secure.
Mr. CHEiVRIER:	Give us the source of
that information.


John George Diefenbaker: Go to the factories and the source of information will be available to anyone. On the basis of that information, the cost of Mosquito aircraft in Canada to-day far exceeds that in any other country- far exceeds what is reasonable.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What other countries are
making Mosquitos?


John George Diefenbaker: The minister has
all that information, I imagine-


Clarence Decatur Howe: You talk very loosely, it
seems to ms.


John George Diefenbaker: -and he needs no information from me. On the basis of present-day production, producing twenty-one planes, with the expenditure of millions of dollars since September last, with the change that has taken place in the removal of one general manager, and the substitution of a controller, parliament and the people of Canada have a right to know what the facts are. How much has been expended? I therefore ask the minister to furnish this committee with a record of the expenditure for wages from September, 1942, to date, and the expenditure prior to September, 1942, during the period when the necessary plans were being made leading to production.
Let me mention another thing that has never been explained, and that is the record of the Avro-Anson and its production. It was chosen early in the war as the two-engine trainer for the commonwealth training scheme. We have asked on this side of the house, on many occasions, questions with regard to the production of engines. We think they should be produced. We realize the difficulties. Canada decided that she would put in these Ansons the Jacobs engine, and she purchased more than 2,000 engines, but they would not operate the planes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just a minute. My hon.
friend had better take that back, because there are Ansons in great numbers flying with Jacobs engines to-day.


John George Diefenbaker: Oh, yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Please be careful.

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John George Diefenbaker: I admit that, but
they had to redesign the Anson in order to build the fuselage around the engine that was purchased. They had to redesign it. That is exactly the point I am making. They are flying Ansons made after considerable delays.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If I had followed the advice
of the opposition there would have been no Anson built to-day. Hon. gentlemen opposite wanted to disband the Anson company and start all over again. If any group of men need to apologize about the Anson planes it is my hon. friends opposite. I remember standing here for three or four days when there was demand after demand that the Anson contract be cancelled. I shall be pleased to read Hansard to my hon. friend and quote chapter and verse before the day is out.


John George Diefenbaker: It was not a criticism of building Ansons; it was a criticism of lack of building them by reason of changes made incidental to the purchase of Jacobs engines. Canada had Anson planes and without examination bought 2,300 engines-I believe that is the number-from the United States. These Jacobs engines were brought to Canada and you found you could not operate the planes with them, and the Anson had to be redesigned. That was what we objected to.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I will read presently what the hon. member objected to.


John George Diefenbaker: We asked that there be conformity with experience and conformity with practical considerations in order to assure a large production of Anson planes. As a matter of fact, the minister in June, 1940, made certain predictions in regard to the production of Ansons. He did the same in November, 1940, and in February, 1941, he found that his predictions were not being fulfilled. No one has any argument to raise because of delays then. We realized the difficulties then. Today, with the expenditure that has been made in this connection, we feel that we have a right to demand that the maximum contribution which this country can make in the matter of fighting aircraft shall be made now, and that the excuses given in the past shall no longer be accepted. To-day we are asking not promises of production in the future but performance now in the fourth year of the war.
The minister said the other day that Canada was expending upon aircraft and the production of aircraft, 25 per cent of the total amount expended for war supplies, munitions and the like. I am going to ask him to place on the record the amount expended for aircraft in each of the years 1940, 1941, 1942 and
1943 to date for aircraft. In particular I should like to know how much money the government has invested in aircraft plants belonging to the government, first, for the production of aircraft, and second, for the production of parts. Finally, I would ask the minister for a statement showing month by month the expenditures made during the past year in the de Havilland plant and in the Malton plant for wages and general expenses. This information would be of much assistance.
I ask the minister in all seriousness this question. We have produced twenty-one fighting planes of the Mosquito type. Having regard to the fact that we have reduced to seven the number of types of planes we are producing, and regard being had to the months that have elapsed since production was first mooted, does not that record of twenty-one fighting planes produced indicate a lack of drive, a lack of appreciation of the necessity of fighting aircraft being produced now? Does it not indicate that a careful investigation should be made by the minister to the end that aircraft production should be encouraged and increased?
I realize that almost a year ago-on May 14, 1942, to be exact-the minister stated what the aircraft production of Canada had been up to that time-3,749 planes, as I remember. To-day our production is slightly over 8,000. At that time the minister said that production has now been stepped up to 400 planes a month, but that there were some plants not in production. So far as actual production is concerned the promise which the minister made last year has not been failed in. The position, however, in fighting aircraft is such that I feel something should be done to re-form the production of planes, to build up an attitude that does not exist to-day in the aircraft factories in this country, namely, a determination on the part of the men working there to produce at whatever the cost in hours and in effort. The lack is not in the men. The men working in the factories say that they have lost faith-not in the minister, but in those charged with this aircraft production programme. There must be some reason for this; otherwise it would not have become necessary last year to start- a morale building campaign in the aircraft plants of this country. Absenteeism in these plants is low and I submit that one way to build morale is to make it possible for the men who work in these factories to know what the issue is. All they require is direction and a goal, and they will endeavor to secure the greatest possible production of aircraft for combat purposes.
It is often said, Mr. Chairman that it is easy to criticize. It is not easy to criticize.



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It would be much easier now for me to get up and say to the Minister of Munitions and Supply that his department is getting along well. But we have a responsibility on this side of the house to arouse the government where we believe it should be aroused, and we have a right to inform the people of Canada just what the situation is with regard to the production of these combat planes which will be so necessary in the offensive about to take place.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Last night the minister had this to say:
There seems to be a tight situation in Peterborough. I know the Quaker Oats plant in that city is closed down to-day for no other reason than that the operators are not available to operate the plant.
Right after the minister said that I got up and said that there was only one flour mill in that plant that was idle. That is not in Hansard, but I want to correct the statement of the minister. The Quaker Oats plant has an 80-barrel mill, 80 barrels per hour, a 60-barrel mill per hour and -a 20-barrel mill per hour. The 60-barrel mill has not been operating for some time because they have not been able to get the men The 60-barrel mill when working would turn out about 1,500 barrels of flour a day. They need in that plant 75 men at least.
The minister has been asked for figures in regard to the production of aeroplanes. I am not going to criticize the minister on that, but I believe he should give the figures not only with respect to aeroplanes but with respect to the guns that are being produced. Giving these figures would often help his case very considerably. In Peterborough we manufacture the 3.7 gun. I understand that over a year ago that gun cost $100,000 to manufacture in Great Britain. The first one produced in Peterborough cost at least $65,000, and to show you how honest our manufacturers of that gun are, that gun today costs, I believe less than $45,000, and the cost is still going down.
I asked the minister the day before yesterday how many civilians working in munitions plants it would take to keep one man in the armed forces. The minister said that he would get me the figures on that; the parliamentary assistant to the minister also promised me those figures and I should like to have them.
I should also like to know how much steel is to be released for the manufacture of bicycles. There is a great shortage of bicycles in Canada. If steel were released for the manufacture of bicycles, a large

number of automobiles would be taken off the roads, with a consequent saving in gasoline. It takes very little steel to produce one bicycle. A bicycle weighs only about fifty pounds, and only about thirty per cent of the weight is in steel.
Last year I asked the minister a question as to escape hatches in tanks. Has any improvement been made in the Canadian tank in that respect?
Another question. I was handed the other day a notice which evidently had gone out from the office of the controller of clothing. It is to the effect that a ruling has just been made by the wartime prices and trade board that tropical worsted shall be used in making uniforms for air force officers only. In other words, the army officers cannot have tropical worsted for their uniforms. Worsteds come under the Department of Munitions and Supply, and I should like the minister to say why the army is left out in the heat not in the cold', since all they have now is heavy serge instead of tropical worsted.
On March 27 an article appeared in the press in regard to a chromium plating process for cutting tools. It was stated that the process had been, offered to one of the manufacturers in the United States on a royalty-free basis. Has that process been made available to Canadian manufacturers also? I should like to know also if Canada is going to manufacture w'hat they call the new pocket-size machine gun, which was referred to in an article appearing in the Globe and Mail on June 7.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has asked so many questions that my memory lags a bit. I believe the first was in regard to the number of civilians it took to keep a man in the armed services supplied. I have not been able to arrive at any information of that kind; as a matter of fact there is no such information, so far as I know. I could give some figures of total population in Britain, which might give some indication of it, but I do not think I should do so without having refreshed my memory. In regard to the plant at Peterborough, it is true that one flour mill unit is not operating. I am sorry it is not, because we need the capacity, and I am looking into the situation to see if some help cannot be given in connection with the matter of man-power. As to bicycles, releasing steel for bicycles would not help the situation. The difficulty is in connection with components, chiefly pedals and brakes, which come from the United States. If my hon. friend will go into any bicycle factory he will find that frame production is well ahead

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of the finished output. We can release all the steel needed by the bicycle industry, but apparently the industry cannot obtain the components from the United States.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Would not your department be able to establish priorities for those parts?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; that allocation is fixed by the United States authorities. In regard to the chromium plating of cutting tools, that process is well known in Canada; I have seen the process actually being carried out in a plant in the eastern townships.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: I should like to take just a few moments to discuss with the minister a question 1 raised in the house on a previous occasion. I think it is in order under item No. 5; it has to do with the development, the mining and the milling of the cobalt ores produced in Canada. On that occasion I called attention to the fact that at the present time we are importing cobalt ore from Africa, refining it and shipping the finished product to Britain as well as using it in essential war fields. In the meantime the ore that is being mined' in northern Ontario, particularly in the Cobalt camp, is being stock-piled at Deloro. I pointed) out previously that the company owning the refining plant at Deloro is, or was in the early years of the war, a member of an international cartel, of which the company now shipping its ore to Canada was also a member.
Cobalt is an essential mineral to-day, the civilian use of which has been forbidden, or at least restricted to the point where it is practically forbidden. In addition to the cobalt contained in these ores there is a considerable content of silver, nickel and arsenic, all of which are also essential minerals. These ores are being stock-piled; they are not being refined at the present time, because the only plant capable of refining these ores is engaged in refining the African cobalt ores. I understand that during the construction and equipment of the Shipshaw plant it was necessary for the United States government to provide approximately 26,000,000 ounces of silver to be used in place of copper, which would indicate that at the present time there is a demand for all the silver we can produce. Yet considerable quantities of this mineral are being stockpiled without being refined at all. I note also from the reports of two mining companies that they were instructed by the dominion government to institute a search for arsenic.
72537-246i
The report of Hard Rock Gold Mines Limited for the fiscal year ended December 31, 1942, contains this statement:
At the request of the metals controller the company investigated the possibility of producing arsenic as a by-product of its ore treatment.
The annual report of MacLeod-Oockshutt Gold Mines Limited for the year ending September 3Q, 1942, contains this statement:
During the year the company carried on a small amount of exploration for strategic minerals and examined several properties and carried on extensive tests in connection with the production of arsenic, at the request of the dominion government, but nothing of beneficial interest to the company has developed from this exploration or research.
I wish to direct the minister's attention to the fact that the cobalt ores which are being stock-piled instead of being refined contain,, in addition to their cobalt content, an average of three per cent nickel, 25 ounces of silver per ton and 25 per cent arsenic, -and these essential war minerals are not being utilized in Canada's war effort. Practically not one ounce of these materials is being used to-day, although evidently they are necessary, and although there are restrictions on their use by the civilian ipopulation.
I would call the minister's attention to the arrangement under which the producers of this mineral sell their products to the Deloro company. To begin with, they receive no credit for any cobalt under eight per cent. Anything less than that goes for nothing. They receive no credit for silver content less than fifty ounces per ton. Any content less than fifty is taken by the Deloro, or the buying company. They receive no credit on nickel content below five per cent. They receive no credit whatsoever for the arsenic content in the minerals.
I have here a list showing a shipment of six carloads of this ore sent by one company to the. refinery. All of this is stock-piled at the refinery^. In the six carloads the unpaid nickel, silver and arsenic content amounted to $4,168, an average of S65.50 per ton, for which the primary producer received no credit whatever. The six carloads amounted to sixty-five tons. The producers of the metal point out to me that on the basis of the 1940 production that camp to-day' is capable of producing or would on, the basis of the 1940 production produce, cobalt, silver, nickel and arsenic to the value of over one and a quarter millions of dollars a year, and that there is a ready market for every ounce of those materials. That revenue could be available to the camp, and the mineral could be available to our war effort, if some means
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could be found of providing the camp with a small hundred-ton mill and a small twenty-five ton refinery. The only mill available to the producers operates only part of the year, and it is costly. I am told that because of the inefficiency of the mill, arising from the fact that it was built many years ago the producers pay an average of $2 per ton more than wmuld be necessary if an efficient mill were provided.
I am told, further, that there is a loss which makes it almost impossible for many producers in that camp to ship their products to the mill. Incidentally, the mill now in operation was formerly the property of the company which now owns the Deloro plant, namely, the O'Brien interests. I realize that restrictions must necessarily be imposed on the release of building materials. I do not submit this by way of criticism of the minister's department, or of his policy, but I would ask the minister to examine the situation, if he can find time. I believe he would realize more fully than I do the need of getting all essential Canadian .minerals into our war effort if it can possibly '.be done. It is unfortunate that during these war years none of these minerals is going into our war effort. I do not know what the solution would be, but I am asking the minister to survey the situation. I am told that if the minister's department were satisfied, after examining the situation, that such a mill will make a valuable contribution to our war effort, funds are available from the metal reserve control of the United States for just such purposes.
There is a feeling abroad that members of the cobalt cartel are using their influence to restrict the refining of this metal. It is well known that they used their cartel to restrict production and to set prices in pre-war years. I pass this information on to the minister- and may I repeat that it is without criticism, but only as a suggestion that he have the matter looked into, for what it is worth.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I have no biief for the plant at Deloro, but I know that that plant is the only one in the British empire which at the present time is producing steelite, and other materials which are essential to the war effort. Without the plant the war effort could not go on, and I know the minister will bear me out in that statement. Cobalt is what they have to have; the other materials are not so essential. Since the beginning of the war that plant has expanded greatly.


Joseph William Noseworthy: They are not using Canadian ores.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They are doing the work; it does not matter what kind of ore they are using. They are using ore, and they are producing what is needed for the war effort.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I am not criticizing that.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The hon. member acted as if he had stock in the mining company which produced the cobalt. I have no brief for the Deloro company, but I think these facts should be placed on record. Nickel, silver and arsenic are produced in many other mines, and I know from what I have been told by the manager of the Deloro plant [DOT]-a man who works twenty-four hours out of the twenty-four, who is never idle, and who is at his job morning, afternoon and night-that they are producing to the limit, and that they have to keep a stock of cobalt on hand at all times.
Before I sit down I should like to ask if it is not possible for the minister's priorities branch to release ball-bearings, pedals and other items necessary for the production of bicycles? The workers have to have them to go to work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My department will release
anything they can get their hands on, but the components for bicycles are under quota which is fixed in the United States. AH we can release is the quota assigned to Canada.


Mr. NOSE WORTHY:: Just to keep the
record straight I want to say to the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) that I do not own one dollar's wrorth of stock in any mining company, nor am I interested in mining stocks. I do know a number of people who are interested in these properties at Cobalt and who are anxious to see them developed. I made no attempt to deprecate the work being done by the Deloro company; I take it they are doing a good job, but the ores they are refining are brought into the country. This plant is being used to capacity to refine imported ores, and I cannot see why there should not be an opportunity to refine Canadian ores. That is my point.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am familiar with the
situation in relation to cobalt. I may say that it took an extreme effort on my part to provide the stock pile which is the only market for our cobalt ore. Cobalt is a world metal and the Deloro smelter is a customs refinery, the only one in the British empire for this particular ore, as has been stated to-day. The cheapest source of ore happens to be South

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Africa, where it is a by-product of another operation. Great Britain requires supplies of cobalt, and she chooses to buy the ore in South Africa, ship it to Canada for smelting and take the product. The only manner in which Canada touches the ore is to transport it across the country to smelt the ore. Cobalt is not a scarce article at the moment; there is plenty of it. My hon. friend is quite, wrong when he says that someone here is stopping the metal reserve from financing a mill. As a matter of fact we explored this with the metal reserve, at a time when we were under the impression that the supplies of cobalt were not adequate, but we were told that supplies were adequate. As a matter of fact the metal reserve is not interested in obtaining cobalt in Canada, since they have their own supply.
The camp which produces this is the old silver camp near the town of Cobalt. The price of silver dropped, the mines were old, the cost of producing the metal is up, and this camp is now in a bad situation. I wish the men who are mining cobalt ore would go over to Sudbury and help us mine nickel; that would be a much more useful war effort. However, as long as they insist upon mining cobalt ore we provide a market for it by way of a stock pile against some future need.


Major James William Coldwell: There is no break-down of this particular item, and it is rather difficult for one to know whether he is in order in discussing a certain matter. This item covers munitions production, aircraft production, ship production and miscellaneous stores. In my opinion too many of the answers given to the questions asked concerning the Department of Munitions and Supply have been given by the minister when relying upon his memory alone. It would have been much better if we had had accurate figures. I am thinking particularly of the figures we were given from time to time on aluminum. I know the minister has a good memory and I sometimes fall into the same trap myself and rely upon my memory rather than having the figures to back it up.
From time to time the first intimation we have of what is going on in Canada or in the minister's department comes from United States sources. As I have said before, there seems to be a policy of almost concealing what this country is doing in regard to certain matters.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We cannot afford press agents.


Major James William Coldwell: I have the Edmonton Bulletin of Saturday, June 19, which was sent to me by air mail yesterday. An article in this
issue is dated Washington and refers to statements given at a press conference by Robert Patterson, United States undersecretary of war, in connection with oil reserves on the Mackenzie river to supply fuel for the army and navy. He stated:
"It has been very successful," he said in reply to questions at a press conference about the oil development which has been a closely guarded military secret.
Then a large part of the story of the development in the Mackenzie area is told in the article. Reference is made to the construction of a pipeline, and to the fact that -numerous wells have been put down, almost all of which have been producers. A very fine oil field has been discovered. It seems to me that the minister and the government would be wise to take this house into their confidence from time to time with regard to such matters rather than to have the information seep through from our neighbours to the south. I know the first intimation I got of the aluminum contract was through an article which appeared in the New York Times last January.
I should like the minister to tell us something about this great development in the north country, a development in which some of us have been much interested. I have referred to it several times, and we have had long discussions about the matter. As I say, I am not sure whether a discussion of this matter would be in onler under this item, but I think we should be told what methods have been adopted to develop this great oil field. As I stated before, the vicepresident of Standard Oil has said that this is the largest reserve supply of oil anywhere on earth. We are very anxious that it shall not be alienated from the people of Canada to corporations either in the United States or in our own country. We must insist that this great reserve of oil shall be developed in the interests of the public of Canada. At the opportune time I should like the minister to give us a statement elucidating what Mr. Patterson has said, either confirming or refuting the statement which appears in the Edmonton Bulletin and which has every appearance of being authentic.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As my hon. friend has said, this was a military secret. The head of a military department can talk about a military secret, but a mere Minister of Munitions and Supply has to keep a military secret if he is told it is a military secret. There is nothing new about oil at Fort Norman. There have been wells there for many years, but the difficulty has been that Fort Norman is an inaccessible point as far as Canada is
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concerned. The production has been confined to what could be used in the immediate area. The boats plying the Mackenzie river have been using this oil for many years. The activities in Alaska, on the Alaska highway, and the requirements of northern aviation, have made production from this area interesting.
The field has been developed by an arrangement between Canada and the United States. Additional wells have been drilled and, as the article states, a pipe-line is to be constructed to carry the oil from Fort Norman to White Horse. A refinery is being built at White Horse.


Major James William Coldwell: Is this being undertaken purely by the government of the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It has been carried out by arrangement between the government of the United States and the government of Canada, but the actual financing of the neyr development has been by the government of the United States.


Major James William Coldwell: And is the work being carried on by a Canadian oil company or by the Standard Oil Company or the Shell?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Chiefly, I believe, by the Imperial Oil company, by arrangement with the government of the United States. I may say the arrangement provides that after the war, I will not say all, but a considerable portion of the wells-at least half-become the property of the Canadian government, as they stand. If my hon. friend asks for a return, perhaps at this time the Department of Mines and Resources will give him the details of the arrangement.


Major James William Coldwell: As a matter of fact we withdrew it at the request of the Minister of Mines and Resources, who did not wish it divulged.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know he could not do so before, but I think it may now be possible to give the information. I suggest it may be worth trying.


Major James William Coldwell: Thanks for the tip.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is a fine oil field in the vicinity of Norman. I question very much whether it is one of the great oil fields of the world. I do not think there is anything to demonstrate that. It is a shallow field, and I doubt whether it will compare with the Turner valley as a source of oil. That is just a layman's view, from what I have been able to discover about it. Nevertheless it is a useful field. Whereas earlier it was inacces-

sible it is inaccessible no longer. There is a market for the product and the field is being developed accordingly.


Mr. STIRLING:: It has been known for twenty or thirty years.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, at least that.


Mr. HANSELL:: Before the item carries, and subsequent to the discussion which has already taken place, I have a series of questions which will appear on the order paper, the basis of which is found in the Ottawa Citizen of yesterday. I appreciate the point which has been raised by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell). The question gives me, and1 should give every Canadian, a good deal of concern, from the point of view that here is a huge development about to take place-


An hon. MEMBER:: It is taking place.


Ernest George Hansell: -is taking place, yes, and we did not know a great deal about it until the United States authorities began to make an announcement regarding it. The article to which I have reference in yesterday morning's Citizen is dated from Edmonton, June 20, and reads as follows:
A huge war-time oil development in the Fort Norman area of the Northwest Territories, 400 miles northeast of Whitehorse, Y.T., is under way.
Captain Freeman C. Bishop, public relations officer for the northwest service command of the United States army, said the project probably will be completed this year.
The programme, rivalling the Alaska highway in scope, was started many months ago, but previously the development was hidden under a shroud of military secrecy.
In addition to scores of oil wells, a pipeline extending more than 1,000 miles from Whitehorse, Y.T., to the area will be completed.
Brig.-Gen. James A. O'Connor, commanding general in charge of the Alaska highway, is in charge of operations. He said the project had been made possible only through the unflagging determination of the troops and civilians employed.
Hoping to tap vast oil resources in Canada's northwest, now a military area under the control of the U.S. army, officials have sent huge amounts of equipment and aeroplane loads of workmen into the many oil bearing sections.
It does not tell us whether a Canadian company is developing it, whether the capital is Canadian or American, whether the United States government or the Canadian government is doing the work. The whole thing seems to be shrouded in mystery. We heard something about an aluminum cartel; here is what might appear to be an oil cartel.
The reason why I am a little exercised about this is that I go to Edmonton occasionally; all over this country Edmonton is talked' about as being the coming city of

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Canada, and I believe it is. I was in a hotel lobby on one occasion and1 sat on the lounge beside a United States army officer, whose name I do not know. We got into conversation. He had been into the far north. He said, "You folks here have been asleep over the years." I talked to him about returning to the United States, and he said, "You don't think we are going back, do you? Why," he said, "we are going to stay right here; we are going to take over for you people." That is the remark he made to me.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply may say that certain things are guarded for reasons of military secrecy, but he has a tremendous responsibility in producing munitions of war, and yet we are so slow that military officials of the United States have to come over here to develop our resources. That is a condition which bothers a good many of us, and I believe there should be some explanation of it. I get sick and tired of being in a Canada which is always at the tail end of everything. It is about time this country took the initiative in some directions. Surely, with a land of abounding wealth, some initiative should be shown in developing these resources for the good of the Canadian people. Let us not remain behind any longer in regard to natural resources or any other matter. When conferences are held, ours is the weak voice crying in the wilderness after everybody else has spoken. It is about time Canada showed more assertion in some of these things. I suppose the minister's answer must be accepted as sufficient for the moment, but I urge the government to take. the initiative and be strong in connection with these issues; it would give Canadians a feeling that we are really getting somewhere. I protest against information on great national developments coming from other than Canadian sources when our own government has known right along that these things are happening, and yet we have not been informed about them.
There is, of course, also the question of to whom these developments will belong after the war is over, whether the people will have a share in their own natural resources, or whether private or alien controls will be so complete that little or no benefit will accrue to the Canadian people.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
asked the minister before about tropical serge. The item comes under his department. The note I have before me is that the government is supplying the cloth and reserving it for the air force only. Why is that so? Is there a shortage of that material?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not aware of it. I think
I would be aware if the army, navy or air force had ordered anything from the Department of Munitions and Supply which the department had not furnished. If the army have ordered tropical suits they have been getting tropical suits, and likewise the navyv There is no shortage of that material. The hon. member spoke about the wartime prices and trade board. I have no knowledge of the activities of the board, which reports to the Minister of Finance, but I can assure my hon. friend that we are still able to give the navy, the army and the air force whatever they require in the way of clothing.


Mr. GILLIS:: I wish to ask the minister a question with reference to a press dispatch that appears in the New Glasgow Evening News of the 18th instant. I am not going to read it, but it refers to a small yard that was operating at Pictou, where the keels for two tugs were being built for the Royal Navy. According to this dispatch, about thirty per cent of the work was finished; they had on hand ninety-seven per cent of the materials necessary to complete the job, and under orders of the deputy minister of munitions last Saturday the work at that yard was discontinued. There are eighty men affected. The reason given for discontinuing the job was that it would interfere with production at the main yard. I understand that this small plant was constructed at quite an expenditure by the Ferguson Brothers; these two nearly completed tugs are on their hands, and apparently there is no understanding as to whether they will be completed. It is said that they cannot be completed anywhere else. Has the minister any comments to make on the situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am familiar with that situation. The contract for the two tugs was placed with the understanding that they would be built at Trenton, and it was not noticed immediately that there would be any difficulty at Trenton as far as labour was concerned. Some weeks later it turned out that the tugs were to be built by Ferguson Brothers at Pictou, which is a different situation. Pictou was a small village-I should not say village, but a small town-when the war broke out, and the government has built that town up into a fair-sized city to-day, having provided houses for two or three thousand workers and their families. All this was for the building of merchant ships. The Ferguson yard was formerly the only large industry at Pictou. A separation was made between the shipbuilding activity and the Ferguson yard, and the Ferguson yard was improved for the purpose of taking care of the repair of naval and mer-
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chant ships. The yard is needed for that purpose. In assessing the repair capacity of Canada the Ferguson yard is counted as available. The Department of Munitions and Supply cannot agree that the Ferguson yard should be converted to the building of steel tugs. Steel tugs can be built in many yards m Canada which are not busy at the moment. The Ferguson Brothers were called to Ottawa, and we discussed the situation. It was explained to them that the capacity of their yard was required for other purposes and a mutually satisfactory arrangement was made for moving the material to other yards. The contract with Ferguson Brothers for building these steel tugs has been cancelled. It was an unfortunate mistake that the contract issued by the department should have been diverted in that way, but as soon as the mistake was discovered it was rectified. I assure my hon. friend that there is more work in Pictou to-day than there are men and women to do it. We have no facilities in Pictou which are not fully booked for the rest of the season.


Clarence Gillis: I appreciate that, but what I cannot understand is that these tugs are thirty per cent completed and ninety-seven per cent of the materials necessary to complete them is on hand- v


Clarence Decatur Howe: They were not thirty per cent completed. They are more nearly ten per cent completed by actual cost.	.


Clarence Gillis: Is that material to be left there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. It will be shipped to Montreal and the contract will be completed. I believe it is the Montreal drydock company who have the bulk of the contract.


Clarence Gillis: The Ferguson yard is being utilized for other purposes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For the repair of ships, yes.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: The minister said
to-day that 1,850 Anson planes have been produced. What is the present cost of producing them compared with the cost in* 1941 or 1942?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The cost of producing Anson aircraft to-day is approximately $45,000. I do not know what it was in 1941.


George Hugh Castleden: Does the break-down given here include overhauling and repairing of engines used in the British empire training scheme operating in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: To what figures is my hon. friend referring?


George Hugh Castleden: I am referring to the estimates we are now discussing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Item 5?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: These are revolving funds. The costs of overhauling planes are not voted in the estimates of the department of munitions. They are voted in the estimates of the Department of National Defence for Air. These are simply revolving funds that finance the work from the time the plane is delivered to us for repair to the time it is paid for by the Department of National Defence for Air.


George Hugh Castleden: When the estimates
were before the Minister of National Defence for Air I asked about that, and that minister said it was under the department of munitions. That is why I asked.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct.


Mr. GREEN:: There has been some discussion concerning the pipeline from Mackenzie river to White Horse and concerning the wells at Fort Norman. Is there any agreement between the dominion and the United States or any board under the United States government with regard to this pipeline? As the minister knows, there is either an agreement or an exchange of notes between the two governments in connection with the Alaska highway. Is there anything of that type in connection with this pipeline?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The proper place for my hon. friend to obtain that information is either the Department of External Affairs, .properly that department, or the Department of Mines and Resources. The Department of Munitions and Supply has had no hand in the negotiations, and it would be unwise and improper for me to make a statement about the transaction.


Howard Charles Green: With regard to drilling for oil in northern British Columbia, what is the present situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only drilling for oil in northern British Columbia that I know of is a well drilled by the provincial government, which I understand is not productive. So far as I know there is no other drilling.


Howard Charles Green: There were negotiations
between the provincial government and the dominion government concerning the development of that field. Can the minister make a statement in regard to those negotiations?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No definite project has been brought to finality.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Under the estimates of the Minister of National Defence for Air I

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asked a question about small boats to be built in Toronto in a plant now being built south of the Canadian Pacific railway tracks near Leaside. I understand the boat is made of some kind of plywood and is used as a crash boat in connection with aeroplanes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think they were light invasion barges. I understand it is the Howard Furnace company.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We called for tenders on that boat and this company was low tenderer. The business was split between three companies.
I am not defending the wisdom of putting the Howard Furnace company into that business. It is one of those things that happen. The production committee approved the transaction. I must say that it was not drawn to my attention. However, as I say, the Howard Furnace company were low tenderer, and they are now on their way and, I believe, are doing good work. It is a lump sum contract.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad to hear they are doing good work. I have known these people for quite a number of years and they are good furnace manufacturers. They know how to make and install hot air furnaces, and their furnaces have given good results. But when I saw that they had a contract for making boats of any kind, I just wondered how that came about. As the minister says, the matter did not come before him. I doubt whether a man of the minister's business experience would have given a contract for making boats to any hot air furnace manufacturer. It might just as well have been given to some farmer or egg producer. I hope the company makes a success of building these boats and makes some money out of it. But it is the sort of contract which makes the public wonder how the thing came about, especially when boat builders in Ontario are not running their plants at full capacity. I believe they are running at only 60 to 65 per cent of their capacity. Any one of the prominent boat-building companies on the Muskoka lakes or Georgian bay would have been glad to make these boats for the government. I think the minister ought to tell us why the men who let the contracts-[DOT] not the minister himself-let this contract for making boats to a hot air furnace company, when from 25 to 30 per cent of our present boat-building capacity is not being used.


Clarence Decatur Howe: All I can say is that every small boat builder in Ontario had a chance to tender on these invasion barges. The Howard Furnace company were willing to
quote a lower price than any other company.
I am not suggesting that all good judgment
was used in the transaction.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am not quarrelling
with giving the contract to the lowest tenderer.
Mr. DIEFENBAIvER: There is one other matter I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. It has to do with a problem which has been discussed in the house on more than one occasion, namely, the production of alcohol from wheat. The minister dealt with this problem the other day at some length, and if I understood him aright the argument which he advanced against the use of wheat was that it would mean that the farmer would receive only 25 to 30 cents a bushel for the wheat so used. That argument has been used before. I know it was advanced in all seriousness by the minister, but I want to bring to his attention something which I think is worthy of his consideration.
I realize that for the time being a decision has been made on this question, and that the plant at Sarnia has been or is being established. But within the last few weeks a new process has been discovered in the United States which it is claimed will revolutionize the production of alcohol from wheat. I refer the minister to an article in Business Week of June 12, 1943. This is an authentic magazine, and the article says:
The chemnrgist's dream of grain alcohol as the answer to farm surpluses may yet come true- and -with it a lengthening horizon of post-war possibilities for the rubber, oil and chemical industries.
It goes on to point out:
Park and Tilford distillery company demonstrated the new process last week at a distillery in Brownsville, Pa.
This was a process which was discovered less than four months ago by Irvin W. Tucker, a young chemist in the department of agriculture of the United States working under the direction of Doctor A. K. Ball, chief of the department's enzyme research laboratory. They have been working on this process for a considerable period of time, and the difficulty of the price to the farmer for his wheat was apparent, as well as the problem of the utilization of the by-products. Yet within the past few weeks, according to this article-I am going to quote only a portion of it-a new era has come in prospect for the wheat producers. The article states:
With full development of the possibilities, grain alcohol can be reduced to the cost levels of molasses and synthetic alcohol, which are ordinarily about 50 per cent cheaper than grain alcohol. This would make large-scale production of grain alcohol for synthetic rubber and other

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industrial purposes a practical post-war possibility, with tremendous implications for industry as well as for the farmer.
Heretofore, ehemurgists who grappled with the question of farm surpluses habitually stubbed their toes on two hard problems: There was no market for the tremendous volume of alcohol that could be produced from farm products, and the cost of farm alcohol was prohibitively high.
That was the point made the other day by the minister. The article goes on:
The war has solved the first problem-the synthetic rubber industry can use 250,000,000 gallons of alcohol annually, and there is more possibility that farm alcohol may be needed for motor fuel with petroleum reserves being depleted at global war rates. Ball and Tucker appear to have solved the second.
There is no more important problem than this. I think it is only fair to say that the members generally have not a knowledge of chemistry and of the possibilities of development in this industry to speak authoritatively upon it. The minister stated last night that the war was not being fought by Canada on the basis of provinces or provincial considerations, and with that, at the moment, I am not going to argue, but I feel that we in the western provinces have received too few war industries or industries established or bonused by the government through capital assistance. Our western provinces, and in particular Saskatchewan, have been depleted of a large percentage of their population because war industry has taken them out of those provinces, though not in the same large measure as enlistments for service in the armed forces. This problem of the production of alcohol will become intensified as time goes on and oil reserves are depleted. The minister has unreservedly given the government's approval to the production of rubber from petroleum, but his decision and his statement will not down the cry from all over western Canada for the solution of this problem by utilizing the wheat reserves.
I wish to offer to the minister a suggestion which I think is worthy of serious consideration. We in this house can never arrive at any definite conclusion in regard to this problem, not being possessed of the necessary knowledge of chemistry or the processes involved. In view of the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars have been advanced to industry in eastern Canada, with practically no such advances being made in western Canada, at least as far as Saskatchewan is concerned-as I have said on more than one occasion, the total of capital advances and assistance in that province does not exceed $1,000,000-in the interests of the farmer; in the interests of the liquidation of part of the large reserves of

wheat that we have on hand, would the minister give consideration to the appointment of a royal commission to investigate the whole problem? I do not suggest a commission composed of men unacquainted with the problem, but rather one composed of representative chemists, professors of chemistry and commercial chemists, who would look into the whole problem, and arrive at a scientific conclusion with respect thereto. When one reads an article such as that to which I have just referred, appearing in a most authoritative magazine, in which it is stated that this process can be and is being developed in the United States, and that it assures a fair and reasonable price for the farmers' wheat, it becomes a matter for serious consideration.
The setting up of such a royal commission would not be a costly process. Representatives of the chemistry departments of the different universities, industrial chemists and men of that kind could be convened, and during war time most if not all of them would give their services without cost to the state, with a view to contributing to the solution of a very important problem. I bespeak the minister's consideration for this suggestion. I think it would do much to clarify the atmosphere and the thinking of farmers all over Canada who believe that something should be done and that the reason why it is not being done is the attitude of the oil companies. I do not join in that view, though I mention it. By the setting up of a royal commission the whole problem could be considered; the various processes could be discussed and decided upon by men competent to deal with such matters and, if favourable findings were made by this commission and acted upon a very important contribution would be made to the welfare of the western provinces and to the dominion as a whole.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would point out to my hon. friend that thorough study has been given to this matter already. He asks that a royal commission be appointed, but I would suggest that we have in Canada a permanent body, the national research council, which is set up exactly as my hon. friend suggests. It has scientists from industry and scientists from the teaching profession; it is the focal point for all the scientific knowledge in Canada, and in my opinion it is most ably administered. The president of the national research council was formerly dean of the university of Saskatchewan, which position he occupied for some twenty years or more. Therefore I suggest that he is not unfamiliar with the problems of the

War Appropriation-Supplies
west and not unsympathetic to those problems. The national research council studied this question thoroughly, but sooner or later a stage is reached when a decision must be made, and in this case the decision was made. Since that decision was made, the government has spent a good many million dollars in preparing to produce butadiene from petroleum. It is all very well to suggest that, having spent this money, we should set up a royal commission to say whether we should produce this commodity in some other way. We are building now, and we shall have enough capacity to meet our requirements. I cannot imagine that for a great many years we shall need butadiene in excess of the amount we are organizing to produce. Therefore what would be the purpose of a new study? Perhaps the decision was wrong; but the decision was made; action was taken, and it is very difficult to turn back the clock at this stage. I say the best scientists in Canada studied the question and arrived at the conclusion which the government is implementing. That decision having been taken rightly or wrongly, there is no purpose in reopening the subject at this time.


Mr. JAQUES:: I find myself in considerable confusion following the remarks of the hon. member for Lake Centre. On the one hand we are told that every bushel of grain will be needed for food after the war, that millions of people in Europe are literally starving today. On the other hand we are told by some hon. members that the only way to dispose of our surplus grain is by spoiling it for human food. I speak as a farmer with forty years experience in western Canada, and I have a little knowledge of chemistry. I wish to say that this idea of turning prime human or animal food into inedible substances is simply the wrong economic solution. People are saying that the economic system under which we operate at the present time cannot provide a decent living for those who are producing the food of the world, and that therefore we have to take some of that food and turn it into chemical substances in order to create a shortage of food so that the price may be increased. It is the same old economy of scarcity. If this house and this country, or the world if you like, have not yet learned that it is possible adequately to reward people for performing the most fundamental of all services, then they have not learned anything, and the outlook for the world after the war is an extremely poor one. There is a proper way of doing this. It is not necessary to spoil food in order to make it scarce. Either there 72537-247*
are millions of people in Europe and elsewhere who are hungry, or all the propaganda we have been hearing is false. If that situation does exist, certainly we shall need all the food that can !be raised; and the price of that food or the reward to the growers of it is not a question of chemistry but a question of economics, and, I might say, of finance. Monetary reform; that is the solution, not chemurgy.


Mr. WRIGHT:: May I ask a question
respecting the processing of wheat into butadiene and alcohol. I understand there have been certain recent developments in that process which might change the picture from what it was at the time the government made its decision. Have there been such developments?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no development
which would have changed the decision, had we been making it to-day. The government maintains an experienced chemist as liaison officer in Washington, who keeps in close touch with chemical developments in the United States. I receive his reports from time to time. Then, our own officers are studying the position intensively. I know of no recent scientific development which would have changed the decision, had we been making it to-day. I think the decision if made to-day would be the same one we made some twelvemonths ago.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently employees on
the third shift, which is known as the graveyard shift, in shipyards on the Pacific coast are paid on the basis of nine hours' pay for seven hours' work, whereas those who are engaged in the Boeing plant, in connection with aircraft production, are paid on the basis of eight hours' pay for seven hours' work. Is it the policy of the government that there should be the same treatment in all war industries? Why should there be that difference?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The policy of the government is that labour courts have been established to decide wages in every industry. The courts have given their decision with respect to the shipbuilding industry, and the aircraft industry, for reasons which they no doubt found equitable. The government has nothing to do with wages. Wages are determined either by the national war labour board or by regional war labour boards, and the government, the manufacturers and labourers themselves are bound by those decisions.


Howard Charles Green: Has that resulted in the
same difference between the practice in shipyards and aircraft plants right across Canada?

War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say as to that; but I think my hon. friend would do well if he would do what everyone else does, namely, let the courts decide.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I understood the minister to say an amicable settlement had been made or was to be made between the Pictou shipyards and the department with respect to the dispute in connection with tugs. Was the minister referring to Ferguson Brothers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Horne Blackmore: I asked the minister if he would bring to the house to-morrow the prices the Canadian government is paying in Canada for various types of aircraft, and he intimated he would do so. Would he at the same time bring the prices the United States government is paying for the same kind of aircraft in the United States?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot bring the latter information, I am sorry to say, because I do not have it. I can give the hon, member the prices we are able to determine at this time. As I said, the Mosquito and the Lancaster are just coming into production, and a sufficient quantity has not been made to determine prices. However, I can give some prices of other types of aircraft. As I said a while ago, the Anson costs $45,000; the Tiger Moth, $4,800; the Bolingbroke, $62,500; the Lysander, $28,600; the Harvard, $20,000, and the Hurricane, $33,750. These prices are plus sales tax.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: And including engines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: I asked several
questions this afternoon which I realized the minister would not be able to answer immediately. Would he answer them to-morrow?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall look through Hansard, and if I can furnish the information I shall be glad to table it.


John George Diefenbaker: I have not yet received a reply to my question respecting the poundage of plane production in each year. The minister indicated that there had been a considerable increase, and I should like to have the yearly record.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I shall furnish that,


Gordon Graydon: There is a matter I should like to bring to the minister's attention, and *concerning which I would ask for some information. I refer to the manufacture of Bren guns. In his statement on June 11, as reported at page 3545 of Hansard, the minister

said that the maximum output of Bren guns would be 8,000 a month, which will be reached this month, and will be maintained at that rate until the end of 1944.
I do not think the full information respecting Bren guns has come out, and perhaps in answering my question the minister may be able to satisfy the committee. Has the Bren gun plant during the past year, or the past few months, spent a considerable amount of money to raise the production of that plant to 10,000 rather than 8,000 a month? The minister's statement would mean that instead of a maximum production of 10,000 a month, the reduced amount is now 8,000, and that that number will be maintained until the end of 1944.
I believe it is well known throughout the country that in respect of war contracts, and particularly those having to do with gun production, any reduction in contractual obligations has arisen from a readjustment of British contracts. While the reasons for those reductions need not be discussed here, the fact remains that such reductions would have entailed the transfer and change in employment of a good many men in the plants involved. The minister's statement that 8,000 would be produced until the end of 1944 indicates that at least to some extent the production of Bren guns is being turned from the British contract to a contract for some other country. That brings me to the point connected with the utilization of mutual aid funds. A billion dollars has been appropriated under the mutual aid bill for the purpose of providing war supplies for other countries. Having in mind the fact that there is a contraction in the obligation which this country must now fulfil to Great Britain, would the minister indicate whether there has been some recent arrangement under which the Bren gun plant, and other plants, have now been kept at their normal output by virtue of utilization of part of that billion dollar fund? That being the situation, I think the minister ought to give the committee information with respect to what part of the reduction in the British contract is being taken up by the utilization of the billion dollar fund. I think the minister and hon. members have read that part of the billion dollar fund is being used to take up the slack, if one may use the ordinary term, of these contracts with Britain which have been subsequently cancelled. At her press conference Madame Chiang Kai-shek referred to a matter, which was referred to subsequently in the debate by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), namely, the urgent need by China of aircraft. The minister has referred to the expansion which has taken

War Appropriation-Supplies
place in the production, of aircraft, and I should like to know if China or other countries have asked for this extra output which would seem to be available by reason of the restrictions in the British contract. Or are we utilizing part of the billion dollar fund for the purpose of keeping our men employed and our plants operating?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I can say at once that we are not carrying on any production for the sake of providing employment. I wish I could get
35.000	or 40,000 men to-day from plants where they are not needed. I would certainly close down any such plants immediately because I know exactly where I would put the men thus released. We do not keep plants going for the sake of employment. My hon. friend is quite mistaken about the contracts in the past for the production of Bren guns. The output of the Bren gun factory has not been going exclusively to England. A large part of it has gone to our own troops. Bren guns have been sent to China, the Philippines, to Australia, to New Zealand. Our production is governed by the combined production and planning board. This board assesses the need for products all over the world and decides how much will be made in Canada, in England and in the other producing countries, and the manufacture is arranged accordingly. Distribution is taken care of by the munitions assignment board; when the guns are made they are assigned to each government by that board. That is the ordinary procedure.
The production of Bren guns has been stepped up continually since the war began. I believe the original rate of production was
5.000	a year. We had an objective of 3,000 a month which we thought would meet the demand, but further pressure was exerted to increase the production, and it has been increasing each month. We have never reached a production of 8,000 a month, but w'e have passed the 7,000 a month mark. Two other types of automatics were made in the plant, the Colt-Browning and the Boys antitank rifle. We thought of stepping up the production of Bren guns to 10,000 a month by converting certain machinery w'hich had been used to manufacture these other types. However, a study of the situation indicated that this would be more than the allied needs, and we levelled our production at 8,000 a month. A production of 8,000 Bren guns a month would seem to meet the requirements of the war as they appear at the present time.


Gordon Graydon: Have any men engaged in the production of Bren guns been laid off?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say what the men were working at, but the number of men and women engaged in the production of Bren
guns is greater to-day than it has ever been, A certain number of men who were producing Bren guns two or three months ago may have been laid off for the reason that they had low seniority. The lay-off took place on a plantwide seniority basis. While I am on my feet. I should like to correct a statement I made a few moments ago. I stated that the cost of the plane included the cost of the engine, but it does not. The costs I gave do not include the cost of the engine.


John Horne Blackmore: How many plants in Canada are devoted exclusively to the manufacture of machine tools?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are a number.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Many dozens.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think perhaps that is true.


John Horne Blackmore: Is Canada equipped to manufacture the machine tools which will enable her to change over from war production to peace production?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John George Diefenbaker: The minister said that he could use 35,000 to 40,000 men. In what industries would he use them?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would start with the highest priority industries and go down the line. I would start off with the aeroplane industry, and the naval shipbuilding industry; I would straighten out the flour-milling situation at Peterborough and give the General Electric the 600 men they need. I would go into the base metal mines and bring them up to the strength they should be, and I would give some help to coal mining and lumbering.


John George Diefenbaker: Is there a shortage of man-power in the aircraft industry?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. It is still expanding and it needs more men.


George Hugh Castleden: When was Toronto Shipbuilding taken over as a government company, and what has been the production record of hulls and completed vessels?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This company has completed sixteen Bangor minesweepers.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: This afternoon the minister gave us additional information in connection with housing, and he has accounted for $43,000, which reduces the cost of the unit of
War Appropriation-Supplies

fifty houses nearly $1,000 per unit, as he explained it, but I must say that the information he has given does not clear the situation. He mentioned last evening, as reported in Hansard, at page 3853:
The hon. member for Mackenzie has given rather an Alice in Wonderland picture of the costs of these developments. He seems to be wholly confused by the returns he obtained.
I must admit, Mr. Chairman, that I am even more confused since the minister gave his information to-day. He gave us a table for the 100 houses showing the average cost to be $2,939.87; that is the figure he gave last night; but the extras in connection with these houses, to provide sewers and streets and so forth, average $995.48 per unit, whereas last evening, in answer to a question, he stated the average in Hull was about $760 per house. Last night he gave the cost of the two-bedroom house as $1,889.13, and this afternoon he gave the cost as $1,980.78. There is a difference there of about $100 per house, and no explanation is given as to whether the figures reported last night were wrong or those read this afternoon were wrong. Then, extras in connection with these fifty houses average $828.68; and as I pointed out before, the minister gave $760 last night as the cost of the extra services. I submit that it is the minister who has given us an Alice in Wonderland picture, and I would appreciate it if he would have his officials make a further study and tell us whether the figures he gave this afternoon, or the ones he gave last night, or some others, are the ones we are to accept.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department has made three returns on the subject. All three are correct with one exception: one return was not corrected for the money that was spent in Hull on the Ottawa project. If my hon. friend will make that correction he now has the final figures of the whole project, which are entirely consistent with the three returns which were handed down in this house. I do not know that I can do any more for him except give him the final figures as we have recorded them here.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Except that last night the minister stated, as reported in Hansard, at page 3853:
In connection with the Hull project . . . for the two-bedroom houses, it was $1,889.13.
This afternoon he brought down information that the costs of the fifty houses totalled $99,039.07, which gives an average for the fifty of $1,980.78. Either the minister was wrong last night, or he was wrong this afternoon. I hope that in due course he will tell me on which occasion he was wrong.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There were two types of house in the fifty-house project. I gave the cost of the small house. As the return shows which I put on Hansard this afternoon, it is called style No. 1, and the average cost was $1,897.78; as to style No. 21, of which twenty-five were built, the cost depends on the interior finish, but it varies between $2,065.56 and $2,073.76. The figure my hon. friend has taken is the average of the fifty houses, and he has an average house there which is neither type No. 1 nor type No. 21, but is a composite of the two. If he will take into account that in the fifty there are twenty-five of one type and twenty-five of another, he can reconcile the figures.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The figure of $1,889.13 which the minister gave last night was the average for the fifty.


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; I gave it as the cost of the small house.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I wish the minister had made that clear last night.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I make it clear now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
6.	General production and warehousing expenses, $15,000,000.
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Carried.


Gordon Graydon: I am prompted to rise at this moment if for no other reason than the anxiety of my hon. friend across the way. I wanted to ask the minister whether this item covers storage of materials which are -on this side of the water awaiting transfer overseas.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. I can give my hon. friend the break-down if he would be interested.


Gordon Graydon: I would.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It includes a number of items: First, subsidies to private contractors. I might say that certain coal industries and certain freight rates in the steel industry are subsidized by the department. That is one item. Then, payments to municipalities: that is for services to a municipality rendered in the event that the industry itself does not pay taxes.


George Hugh Castleden: Would the minister give the amount of each of these items?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.
Subsidies to private contractors; estimated subsidies for 1942-43, $6,675,665.98, of which there was actually expended S4.294,793.80.

War Appropriation-Supplies
Payments to municipalities, estimate last year $561,965.65., actual expenditure $219,696.73.
Machinery transfers; that is transfers of machinery owned by the crown from one plant to another plant; the estimate of that Last year was $10,000, and the actual expenditure was $1,248.73.
Patent rights: the estimate for last year was $1,000,000; instead of an expenditure last year there was actually a revenue of $187,889.49.
Experimental and development costs: the item provided was $2,418,837.50, and the actual expenditure was $474,304.55.


Gordon Graydon: Would experimental
costs have to do with the matters which the minister referred to this afternoon, namely the research council, or is that an additional amount?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is in connection with army engineering design, which is carried out for the army by the Department of Munitions and Supply certain testing in the development of army vehicles, and some development work which is carried out for us by the research council, for which we pay; and expenditures of that sort.


Gordon Graydon: Does that cover investigation into private inventors' plans and devices?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. Private inventors' plans are examined by the inventions board, which is not in the Department of Munitions and Supply. I had better furnish the remainder of this break-down, since I am at it.
The next item is operation of storage warehouses: there was an item of $2,000,000,, and actually there was a revenue of $52,400.58, instead of an expenditure.
Other production expenses: estimate, $1,181.057.33 actual expenditure $927,275.80.
Duty and taxes on United Kingdom purchases: estimate $15,000,000; actual expenditure, $5,634,847.74. Our agreement with Great Britain provides that no duties shall be assessed against goods moving to the United Kingdom. In other words, if we buy components in the United States they enter Canada duty free for the United Kingdom, but the mechanics of the thing is that we actually pay the duties and then deduct them from the invoice price to England and charge them to this account. It represents Canadian duties paid on United States imports which later went to Britain.
Publicity campaigns in connection with rubber and fuel: estimate $675,750.43; expenditures, $322,182.51.


Gordon Graydon: Has the minister an itemized account to show how that amount of $372,000 is made up?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have the information, but perhaps I may be allowed to put these figures on Hansard first.
Operation of chartered vessels: appropriation $435,944.83; actual expenditure, $145,111.02.
Gasoline rationing plan:	appropriation,
$1,800,000; actual expenditure $938,601.95.
Administration of government-owned companies: $4,000,000 appropriation; actual expenditure, $1,496,740.84.
Loss through cancellation of contracts: appropriation, $10,000; actual expenditure, $3,746.30.
Protective measures; oil storage; appropriation, $85,000; actual expenditure $82,148.68.
Last year's appropriation was $35,854,221.72, of which we expended $14,300,408.74. The item this year is $15,000,000 odd of which $5,000,000 is a revote.


Gordon Graydon: As regards subsidies to municipalities, has the department any general policy of compensating municipalities where a property has been expropriated-I have a particular instance in mind

where a crown company has been formed to take over the operation of the plant itself. In these cases, as the minister knows, some serious complications sometimes arise on the question of loss of revenue to the municipalities. What is the department's policy in general with regard to crown companies which are replacing those that have been tax-paying institutions previously?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the ownership of the property passes to the crown, the property is of course tax-free under the British North America Act, and nothing can be done about that. But if services are rendered by the municipality to the plant itself, it is the custom to pay for them. The payment is payment for services, not payment in lieu of taxes. It is an equitable payment for services rendered.


George Hugh Castleden: What are the companies and private contractors to whom subsidies were paid in connection with the $4,000,000 odd? What are the quantities of coal moved, and where?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The largest item is in connection with the Dominion Steel company. Its ore is at Wabana, and the transportation costs have to be paid. It has also to move coal to its destination up the St. Lawrence. That movement has been seriously interrupted by the war. As hon. members know, a number of
War Appropriation-Supplies

boats owned by the Dominion Steel Company *-all the boats-have been sunk by enemy action. The boats now operating carry a very high war risk insurance rate, and in order to make operations of the plant possible, an agreement was entered into about eighteen months ago to the effect that the dominion government, as a subsidy, would compensate the company for increases in the cost of water movement of its raw materials and finished product. That payment last year amounted to, I believe, about $3,000,000.


George Hugh Castleden: That is the Dominion Steel and Coal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. In addition, certain coal mines in the west have been subsidized to some extent, for opening up new operations or for improving the output of their coal. I have not the break-down of these payments. The emergency coal production board hears the applications for subsidies and recommends the application, or otherwise, to the department. If a recommendation is made by the board and it receives the approval of the department, the subsidy is paid.


Mr. MacINNIS:: What was the value of the material moved by the Dominion Iron and Steel Company on which the subsidy was paid?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Iron ore and limestone from Newfoundland and Sydney, and coal moved up the St. Lawrence, would run into a very large figure. I cannot say what the amount would be, but it w'ould be in the order of fifteen or sixteen million dollars.


Howard Charles Green: This item includes charges for warehousing. When, one sees these goods stored beside railway tracks in different parts of the country and in all sorts of weather, one wonders why that material is not put under cover. I suppose that question has been given thorough consideration by the minister, but could he tell us why it is not possible to protect these goods from the weather? Do they not depreciate greatly by being left out all winter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; the goods do not depreciate. The service vehicles will see much rougher usage after being uncrated than they do while they are in crates, and if there are a few spots on the enamel that is not a very serious matter for war vehicles. The vehicles are well and substantially packed, and I can assure my hon. friend that no damage results from storing them alongside the railway tracks. He realizes that the normal stock of vehicles is about 30,000. Our people advise
TMr. Howe.]
me that they cannot fill their shipping orders with stocks of much less than that, which represents a little less than two months' output. If stocks get over fifty thousand, as they did on one occasion, we get disturbed. But thirty thousand we consider normal.


Joseph Henry Harris: I would point out to the minister that his general statement is probably quite all right. But as a matter of real fact many thousands and thousands of dollars worth of these goods-[DOT]


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Millions.


Joseph Henry Harris: My hon. friend
suggests millions. I am being conservative and saying that many thousands and thousands of dollars worth of these goods are stored alongside the railway tracks, exposed to the weather and with the packages broken. To my own knowledge, in the area fronting on the Don river, thousands and thousands of dollars worth of spare parts to replace the springs on vehicles 'which were recently used in the North African campaign are lying there exposed to the weather and have been for months. Even rubber tires are lying there exposed to the weather and have been for many months. No doubt they are destined to be replacement parts on vehicles at present in combat areas. But there is no doubt in my mind or in the mind of anyone with ordinary common sense that these goods are perishing.	,
I am rising on this occasion not so much to criticize the handling of these goods as to point out to the minister and to those charged with the responsibility for taking care of these thousands and thousands of dollars worth of goods that this exposure to all kinds of weather affects these spare parts considerably, and that consideration should be given by those responsible to the depreciation which is taking place in these goods. I can readily understand that there are difficulties in unloading and storing these goods, because it is a new venture for the carrier company and warehousing is not provided. These goods have accumulated as a war-time necessity. At the same time, however, I should like to put on record as a constructive criticism that something should be done to protect the many, many thousands of dollars worth of these goods from the damage which is now being done to them on account of the inadequate warehousing facilities, those facilities being on the ground by the side of the tracks.
I know it is impossible for the Department of Munitions and Supply to have spare parts

War Appropria lion-Supplies
for every type of equipment overseas always ready for shipment. I know the difficulty in getting bottoms to transport these goods across the ocean, but in the interests of economy a review should be made of the entire inventory of spare parts lying alongside the tracks all across Canada, because the goods are at present depreciating to an extent which those responsible are perhaps not cognizant of. I refer particularly to the area with which I am perhaps better acquainted, from Windsor through to Montreal, where there are thousands and thousands of dollars worth of goods stored alongside the tracks and perhaps without any destination. I saw the word "Egypt" on many, many hundreds of these packages, some of which were broken, some in a state of disrepair, some spoiling, some depreciating. Some of these goods have been stored alongside the tracks for a period of two years.
It must be remembered that the original destination of these goods may be changed. I realize the difficulties of the department in getting furtherance orders with regard to these goods, because there are no bottoms available in which to ship them. At the same time, however, as a matter of economy in taking care of this costly investment, someone within the minister's department should give consideration to whether these goods are not going to be destroyed through exposure to the weather and depreciation to an extent that they may not be serviceable if and when they eventually reach their destination.
I realize the other difficulty. While these spare parts stored in Canada in the wide, open spaces have depreciated, they may not find their destination in the areas where the original machines of destruction for which they were intended as spare parts were used. The department would be well advised to take an inventory of what is lying out in the open all across Canada to replace as spare parts equipment that has already been shipped by way of Egypt for the North African campaign. These goods may never be used now in North Africa. Their original destination may be changed. I am of opinion that perhaps many scores of thousands of dollars worth of goods lying out in the open in Canada without warehouse covering, but lying as warehouse goods under this particular vote, might be reclaimed for shipment to other theatres of war where they could be used. Perhaps many thousands of dollars worth of equipment has been shipped to the United Kingdom, and we may even find ourselves short of replacement parts for this equipment. We hope that the North African campaign is over, and these goods lying along the track branded "Egypt" may never have to go to Egypt. Could they
not as a matter of economy be brought back into supply for some other destination for which we are at present manufacturing supplies?
I am of opinion that this tremendous investment of Canada should be reviewed and an inventory taken, so that the department would know what they have available and what is not necessary for shipment to Egypt and the North African campaign.
Therefore the question I would direct to the minister is this: Has he recently had before him a review of this entire situation, representing a tremendous investment on the part of Canada, and has he any concrete plan for bringing into the asset side of our war effort this tremendous inventory of goods which are at present stored in Canada, some of which might be usable in a present theatre of war. and very much of which I am afraid is depreciating rapidly and should be brought back into supply to service equipment which has already been shipped overseas by the Department of Munitions and Supply?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I would be sorry, Mr. Chairman, if hon. members supposed that these goods were simply placed beside the track and forgotten.


Joseph Henry Harris: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to have the minister put in my mouth words which I did not say. I did not make the statement that the goods were put beside the track and forgotten. I was doing my best to offer a constructive criticism, and I rarely say anything unless I know what I am talking about. I did not suggest for a moment that they were put there and forgotten. I suggested that they were there now., and that since we had wTon the battle of North Africa there would be no necessity of sending more of these spare parts to that theatre of war. I was trying to make a constructive suggestion in that regard, and I ask the minister not to put in my mouth words that I did not utter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend is much too sensitive. Certainly I did not intend to put words in his mouth, and I did not think I was doing so. However, there seems to be an impression abroad that we do not have inventories of these goods, that we simply leave them there and let nature take its course. That is not true. We have an organization, headed by a man of great experience in charge of stored goods, not only automobiles but other goods that are stored, and periodic inspections are made.


Joseph Henry Harris: Just stir up the head of that organization a bit, to see that he is on the job.
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Clarence Decatur Howe: I can assure my hon. friend that every week I have an inventory of the goods in store in Canada. It is not an inventory that deals with small figures; it runs into very large figures. We do try to keep our inventories within reasonable proportions, and if we find too large an accumulation we apply for more shipping, which we usually get.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That organization was formed only this year, since January 1, was it not?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We had men doing the work before that, but we set up a more formal organization perhaps a year ago.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
believe they have been checking all these deposit places only this year.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Nevertheless we maintained inventories before that. In the matter of spare parts, I may say there is no guesswork in that connection. No vehicle leaves this country without a standard list of spares. I do not think Canada needs to take off her hat to any other country making motor vehicles in the way we have kept up our spare lists. The manufacturers would much rather supply finished vehicles than parts, and it has taken a good deal of pressure to keep our spares up with our vehicles. When a vehicle is put on board ship a complete set of spares for the .required period, usually one year, is forwarded with the vehicle to the same destination and on the same boat. I can say also that no vehicle leaves these shores without a final inspection by the inspection board of the United Kingdom and Canada, and there is no danger whatever of a defective vehicle being put on board ship..
I think the damage suggested here has been greatly exaggerated. I know of very little damage and of very few claims for damage to goods. These goods are stored for the account of the owner. I may say that each vehicle as it comes out of the factory, is destined for a certain owner; it is built to fill a certain order. We have certain crates marked for Egypt that have not gone to Egypt; nevertheless the vehicle is what is called a desert-type vehicle in that it has sand tires, is fitted with sand-proof bearings and has certain other characteristics for desert work. It may be true that the fighting is over in North Africa, but perhaps it can be assumed that desert fighting in this war is not over. In any event the desert vehicle is a better made vehicle than the standard,

and if it is not required for desert fighting it will be accepted gladly for any other type of fighting.


Mr. MACDONALD (Brantford City):: There is one matter I should like to bring to the attention of the committee; it may not come strictly under the heading of general production and warehousing expenses; but since it has not been discussed already, I thought I might bring it up now.
Before doing so, however, since I have not previously taken part in the discussion of the munitions and supply items, I should like to take this opportunity of joining with other hon. members in congratulating the minister upon the great work he has accomplished. There has been some criticism of certain features of the work of his department, but I think members of this house and the great majority of the people of Canada realize that he has performed a magnificent task in bringing Canada's production to the high peak it has attained.
The matter to which I should like to refer is the giving of an award for great accomplishments in the manufacture of materials vitally needed for the winning of the war. There is no doubt that the manufacturing concerns of this dominion have performed a task which most of us thought impossible of achievement when the war started, and I think we should give credit to the executives of these manufacturing concerns as well as to the working men and women who have carried on in these plants. I know in the city of Brantford there are many elderly men who have spent long hours in the munition plants in order that our output might be the very greatest possible. These working people have not hesitated to labour very long hours, often at great sacrifice and to the detriment of their own health. The executives and workers of these companies take great pride in what they have accomplished; they rejoice in their achievements, and I believe some award might be given them. In our fighting forces awards are given for great achievements, for outstanding accomplishments and for heroic acts. This might be applied to the manufacturing concerns of our country. I believe in the United States there is an army and navy E award given to companies which achieve a certain high standard of production. My suggestion to the minister is that in Canada a high standard might be set and that those companies which attain such high standards should receive a reward. This reward might consist of a flag to be flown from their buildings, while each man in the plant might receive a pin bearing some symbol which

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would designate great accomplishment. I know the executives and working men would welcome such an award. It would be something toward which they could strive. I believe it would1 stimulate production, and would keep morale high in such companies. At the present time the company which is not doing a good job is not differentiated from the company which is doing an outstanding job. If some such award as I have suggested were given for great achievement, I am satisfied it would help much in our war effort.


Thomas Langton Church: I do not rise to speak critically of the government; far from it. But I must point out that the people of this country are aware of the vast expenditures made in peace time on our two great railway systems, as they serve on land, and through their steamship connections. The people in your constituency, Mr. Chairman, and in many other constituencies throughout the country, along the rights of way and branch lines of the two railway systems, are very much disappointed in these days with those systems. They see the line-up of package freight and munitions which has existed for a very long time, and into this fourth year of the war. When all these munitions are required to fight the enemy where the enemy is to be found, the people of Canada are wondering what they are getting for their money.
A return to the house has shown that down to the end of 1940, one year and three months after the outbreak of war, the Canadian National Railways had received two billion and a half dollars and the other system about twenty-five per cent more. That is more than they made in the whole four and a half years of the great war. I do not blame the minister for this condition. But I must say those who are overseas are wondering about the reason for this congestion. What is the object of it? Have matters which have come before the house, such as the plebiscite, and the difficulty of deciding the position of the theatre of war, held up these shipments? We may talk as much as we like about this matter, but the people back home in our constituencies see these goods along the rights of way of the two transportation systems. I am very much discouraged when I think of this. The soldiers overseas do not believe in it; and there should be an investigation into it. The two transportation systems are falling down all along the line.
For instance, let us consider the passenger service the two railway companies are giving us. Where is the railway commission, when all this is going on? Under the act they should operate in peace and war, but they have not done one thing to regulate this freight lying
along the rights of way of the railways. Home defence does not amount to anything, when it comes to beating Hitler. These munitions are required overseas, and if we hand these supplies to home defence, it will not amount to the snap of a finger in beating Hitler. Hitler will rejoice when he sees what is going on in this country.


Angus MacInnis: I was told that the reason why these goods were lying along the railways was that there was a lack of ocean shipping facilities. On account of the length of time the goods have been there, are any of them now obsolete?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, the goods are not obsolete. As I said some time ago, the practice is to use Canada as an area for accumulating necessary supplies for movement into a new area. As I stated earlier, prior to movement in North Africa we had very large stocks of goods in Canada, including motor cars. The boats which moved to Africa were loaded largely in Canada, and our stocks were sharply reduced at that time. I have no doubt that, if another invasion effort takes place, Canadian stocks will be heavily drawn on again.
In the early stages of the war the practice was to move goods from Canada to Great Britain, and to use Great Britain as storage ground. That is no longer being done. There are accumulations here which may be large or which may be small, depending on the state of the war. But they are part of the general strategy. They are by no means overlooked. I think there has been some exaggeration as to the length of time that any considerable number of items has been in storage in Canada. I am quite sure no article has been here as long as two years, standing alongside railway tracks.


Clarence Gillis: I was interested to hear the Minister of Munitions and Supply state that Dominion Iron, Steel and Coal were subsidized for 1942 to the extent of $3,000,000. I am not objecting to the payment of these subsidies, provided they serve the purpose for which they are intended. I find an interesting statement in the Financial Post of June 12. I do not know whether the minister saw it or not, but it is captioned "Dominion Coal Seeks Subsidy", and it leaves one something to think about. The following appears at page 18:
Government auditors are now perusing the 1942 statement of Dominion Coal Company to check its claim for special subsidy treatment under the emergency coal production board.
Although it mined 67,000 fewer tons of coal in 1942 than in 1941, it improved its financial position in marked degree-presumably as a
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result of the government having underwritten production to the extent of "standard profits" or 15 cents a ton-whichever was the smaller item.
I understand these subsidies are paid, and a new subsidy is being sought from the emergency war production board, with the end in view of increasing production. According to this statement, if these figures are correct, in 1942 while there was a substantial increase in the subsidy paid to that company it mined
67,000	fewer tons of coal than had been produced in the previous year. The statement goes on to say that after depreciation and depletion, from zero to $1,250,000, and after paying what must have been normal increased taxes-because in 1941 with a net loss there could have been no tax paid worth mentioning-the company showed a net profit of $469,618 as against a 1941 loss of $566,125. I am leaving out the tax question. The improvement in the company's position was $2,285,000.
I am now interested in finding out how much of that $3,000,000 was subvention, and how much of it was paid by way of subsidies. Second, I would ask the minister to comment on the observation that the government is underwriting standard profits for that company to the extent of fifteen cents a ton. If the purpose for which these subventions and subsidies are paid is to increase production, rather than to put figures on the right side of the balance sheet of the coal company to the extent shown in this article-an improvement in their own financial position, with a loss in production of 67,000 tons-it would be well for the government now, in the light of the application for new subsidies, to make an examination of the question of subventions with the end in view of guaranteeing that that money will be spent this time in a way which will increase production.
The men who actually produce the coal will have to be taken into consideration. A great deal could be said about this matter, but I want the minister to explain it fully. Do auditors from the finance department check the financial statements of the coal company, or do they accept the statement of the company's auditor? Their balance sheet from time to time shows that they have an income of a million and a half or two millions a year through subventions. Originally the subvention was intended to assist them to pay wages. They charge their wage bill 100 per cent to the cost of production, and I have never seen it shown where they received anything to assist in paying wages. When these subventions are paid there should be more examination into how they are handled. They 
should not be given to someone who can treat them as income and be able to write off a lot of depreciation and carry on other manipulation of accounts. There should be a full examination of the position of those who are producing coal in order that we may have some benefit from the money being spent this year in this way.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I know of no arrangement
between the dominion government and the Dominion Coal company by which the government guarantees standard profits or a subvention of fifteen cents, whichever is the larger. I have been connected with the coal business for only a matter of two or three months. There may be such a subsidy outstanding, but I doubt if there is. The subsidy to which I referred is based on one thing, namely, the increased cost of water transportation. Limestone must be transported from Wabana, and there is an increased cost in moving Brazilian ore from Brazil to Dosco. There is also an increased cost in the movement up the St. Lawrence. These are assessed against the costs of the base period, and the government pays the difference. I can assure my hon. friend that if it did not, there would be no steel produced in the Sydney area at the moment. It is necessary to do this in order to keep the industry alive. This happens to be the one steel industry where the war has made a real impact on transportation costs. We are making up the difference and thereby keeping the industry in production.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Is the
government storing sugar in Calgary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Department of Munitions and Supply does not deal in sugar. That question would have to be asked of the Department of Finance, which have the wartime prices and trade board under their jurisdiction.


Charles Edward Johnston: Would the minister secure space from the Royal Canadian Air Force to provide storage for sugar?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We have nothing to do with
sugar.	.


Charles Edward Johnston: You do
not even supply storage for it?


Thomas Langton Church: The tonnage being moved on our railroads in this war is ten times what it was in the last war. In the last war Mr. McAdoo took over the railroads of the United States and administered them for the remainder of the war. What is this government going to do? This government has been spending not millions but billions on the transportation systems of this country. We have appointed

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a railway commission to run them in peace and war. Look at the Railway Act which provides for a board of transport commissioners to act for the people of this country. This 'board has fallen down.
In the United States during the last war the government of the day under Woodrow Wilson took over and administered the railroads on account of the congested condition of passenger and freight traffic. What is the policy of this government regarding the congestion on our railroads, all these boxcars we see along the right of way? We are not getting a total effort. The government is taxing the people of this country five billion dollars, and 30 per cent of it is not being used for war at all. All this storage that is taking place on the railway systems is being wasted. Some of the equipment is obsolete three months after it is furnished. The two transportation systems have fallen down on land, sea and in the air. Who is the minister responsible for it? The country wants to know, because the people are being taxed.
I think we should have some considered statement, not only from the Minister of Munitions and Supply but from other ministers. He is not to blame for this. We should hear from the Minister of Transport (Mr. Michaud), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) and other ministers. In view of what the taxpayers are paying for this war, there should be some statement made. If the railway systems have fallen down and the enemy is at our gate, it is the duty of the government to take over the railroads for the benefit of the people and in order to have a total war effort. There should be no more of these boxcars all along the right of way. Look at the way in which the soldiers are treated. They cannot get accommodation on the trains, and then we have the fifty-mile bus rule. The people are sick and tired of it. The House of Commons might as well not meet at all if we have no control over the transportation system of this country.


Mr. MICHAUD:: It would not be fair to allow the statement of the hon. member for Broadview to go unchallenged. He knows, as does everyone, that since the beginning of the war the two great transportation systems of the country have not fallen down. On the contrary, they have met the needs of the country most magnificently in spite of the difficulty of replacing rolling stock and getting sufficient labour. Transportation on land within the country is under the control of the transport commissioners to the extent to which
the law gives them power to control. Then to take care of essential war services we have another control.


Gordon Graydon: Why do you need the transit control and the board of transport commissioners?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The board of transport commissioners have duties and powers assigned to them under the Railway Act.


Gordon Graydon: Why could these additional duties not have been assigned to the board of transport commissioners?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It would have meant adding personnel to the board. We decided to set up a special structure to take care of the essential war needs. This system is working out quite satisfactorily. The accumulation of war materials along the tracks referred to by the hon. member is not owing to lack of facilities to transport them to destination; it is because this is the most convenient place to store the goods until the consignees make requisition and ask that they be sent to the seaboard.
The railways have never fallen down in the transport of war material. They have provided the people who have purchased and paid for that material with storage along the lines, and whenever there is a requisition for a shipment the railways move the material to destination. There has been no hold-up, no delay whatever since the beginning of the war. The material along the lines is well taken care of. The owners are helping in the checking and protecting of the material, and it is done at their request and to meet the conditions which we have to face. As has already been said, Canada has been asked to accumulate war material, for obvious reasons, and the places where it is stored have been found by those who were directly interested to be the most convenient places for the purpose. Nobody is complaining about it-neither the owners of the goods, the manufacturers, nor those who are charged with the responsibility of transporting them. So that it is not fair to give the people of this country the impression that the transportation system of Canada has failed in its task during this war.


Thomas Langton Church: I do not wish to be critical of the present Minister of Transport, an hon. gentleman who I know is trying to do his duty. But I have seen evidences of the money which the Canadian National is spending on the United States portion of its system, and I know something about the comparative luxuriousness of the trains belonging to this road
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upon which American soldiers are travelling in the United States. By contrast, last Friday I saw some of the Noah's Arks which were moving in and out of Camp Borden. Our great ally on the other side of the border would not stand for the kind of cattle trains-I call them that because that is what they are, just convertible cars which were formerly used for the transportation of various kinds of freight-which apparently are supposed to be good enough for our men. I have known the minister for many years; he is a kind-hearted man, and I hold him in respect; but I want to point out that ours is a citizens' army, composed of Canadians born in Canada, of many nationalities, and it is the view of a good many hon. members on both side of this chamber that these men are not being properly treated. During the war we are not interested in politics; our duty is to those who serve in the forces. I have talked to many men and have seen the kind of accommodation which the railways provide for them. The cars I saw last Friday going out of Camp Borden were not fit for human occupancy. I demand, in all courtesy, that we realize what our citizens' army is putting up with in return for a daily allowance of $1.30 plus fifty cents. After this war there will be a show-down with the two railway systems of this country. If they do not do their duty the government should take over the systems and administer them for the benefit of the people. We have spent a fortune on them and we are not getting adequate service. Look at the transportation of members of parliament out of this city and back. Look at the scenes at the Union station at Ottawa every night. Last evening when the empire parliamentary delegation arrived, one train was going out and one coming in, and if a car had jumped the track many people would have been killed. We have no explanation of such things. What is the railway commission doing? Are we to sit here as a lot of dummies and yes-men and nodders and approve the way in which the men in our armed forces are treated by the railways? I say, no; it is our duty to protest.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Another criticism which has been made does not seem to me to be fair. Facilities for passenger traffic,, as we all know, have been taxed to the limit ever since the war began. As regards transportation of the army, none of our soldiers are transported on United States lines; they all travel on Canadian lines, either Canadian Pacific or Canadian National. We all know that our rolling stock is used to capacity and that we cannot manufacture and get out of

the shops and factories the renewals and replacements of rolling stock as fast as the two systems would like to have them. There are priorities on locomotives, then on freight cars, and then on railway passenger cars. We have been unable to secure deliveries of orders placed in 1941. Our 1942 programme of over $25 millions for renewals of cars and locomotives has not yet been touched. Neither in the United States nor in Canada can we find factories capable of delivering the rolling stock as fast as we should like to have it. For that reason we have to be satisfied with what is available. I adimit that it is necessary to put up with some inconveniences, but conditions are such that we have to serve first the more pressing needs, and then wait until there is a de-congestion of the most needed requirements to turn our shops to the manufacturing of locomotives and passenger cars. Until that stage is reached, it will be impossible to find any better solution than the one we now have to be content with.


Thomas Langton Church: I suggest that the head
offices of the National system be transferred to Toronto as Ontario is its best customer.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order.


Thomas Langton Church: They make all their money in the province of Ontario, anyway. Then we might get some results. Let the minister get rid of some of the deadwood in the Canadian National and engage some soldiers who know something about railways; it would be far better for the country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
7.	Loans to commodity companies, $15,000,000.
Ernest George Hansell: Under this item I should like to pursue a little further the discussion which arose a moment or so ago in respect of subsidies to the coal mining industry. The minister has said that he has not a great deal of experience with regard to coal; that is, not longer than during the past two or three months. I might suggest to him that the subventions which are paid on ooal-and perhaps the same would apply to steel to which he referred-are not paid to the coal companies, but specifically for the transportation of coal, and these subventions usually find their -way into the hands of transportation companies such as the railroads.
I do not know what is involved in the item "loans to commodity companies." There is a wide range of subjects embodied in each of these. We pass $100,000,000 here in a few minutes, and that must cover an extensive field. Surely we do not spend $100,000,000 on

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pins; we must spend it on more than one commodity. However, with regard to loans to commodity companies, the government have been spending, for commodity companies, a certain amount on capital equipment which has expanded the companies. The government claim that they still own this capital equipment and that at the end of the war it will be returned to them, provided, of course, it is not worn out. It means anyway that the company itself has been expanded in its productive capacity, and expanded by the money which has been provided through war loans and so on. I ask the minister whether any money at all has been paid to coal mining companies for capital equipment in order to facilitate the production of more coal. Let me elucidate a little further in regard to the money that has been spent in connection with subventions to coal companies.
Two terms have been used in the last little while-subventions and subsidies. I do not know whether they are interchangeable. I do not think they are, because I believe that, in the truest sense of the word, subventions as applied to coal companies are payments for the movement of coal, while, in the true sense, subsidies may be given to coal mining companies.. I doubt whether any subsidies have been given to coal mining companies. Perhaps they have; I may not have the whole picture or be well enough informed on that. I know,, however, that year in and year out this house votes subventions for the movement of coal, and because that vote is not statutory, because it comes up every year, it could be dropped any year, and that means, of course, that coal mining companies will not expand their capital equipment. They will not say, "We will open up another mine here or sink another shaft there; there is good coal here and we will expand our capital equipment to develop it." The reason why they do not take that attitude is that after putting a good bit of money into such expansion of capital equipment, they may find the next year that the subsidy is reduced. They take a chance if they do that, and the result is that they will not do it.	,
A few weeks ago the Prime Minister announced a national emergency on account of a shortage of fuel. If there is an emergency by reason of a shortage of fuel, then in all probability we are in danger of our war production slowing up. There is now a serious situation of a huge coal strike in the United States. If our coal production should be reduced materially, it would not take very much to stop, perhaps almost overnight, the largest part of our production of munitions.
I do not know whether the minister is alarmed at that situation, but I shohld like to
know from him whether his department have done anything or contemplates doing anything toward the expansion of the coal mining industry of Canada in order to produce more Canadian coal for the Canadian production of munitions. The Minister of Labour is not at the moment in his seat to come to the minister's aid to-night. Someone will telephone him and he will come here in a couple of minutes. However, I should like to know whether the Minister of Munitions is entirely dependent upon the genius, if there is such a thing, in the labour department to see that the coal mining industry is not slowed up; for if it is, it will create a serious situation in Canada in the production of munitions.
Would the minister care to make a statement along that line? There are two points I am putting to him. First, is he dependent upon the Minister of Labour to see that the coal mining industry is kept continuously up to the fullest productive capacity, and, second, has he subsidized, or does he contemplate subsidizing that industry for the purpose of expanding coal production?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should explain that this
item covers loans to commodity companies. As hon. members know, the government has from time to time accumulated large stocks of commodities, such as rubber, silk, wool, kapok and certain strategic metals. These are held by government-owned companies of the type called commodity companies, and the item in question covers the funds required by these companies to maintain stocks of strategic materials. My hon. friend was discussing the item we have just passed, namely, subsidies to coal companies. There is a difference between a subsidy and a subvention, as the terms are being used to-day. As the hon. member has said, a subvention is a sum of money paid to the transportation company to reduce the cost of transportation of coal, and therefore to enlarge the area which can be served from a coal-producing unit. Subsidies have been given for the purpose of increasing production. If it can be shown that by expending a certain sum of money more coal can be obtained from an operation, if equipment is required in a strip operation to step up production therefrom, these funds are advanced on terms that seem to be reasonable after a study of the individual case.
Under present conditions I would not hesitate to make any expenditure that promised any considerable increase in the production of coal. My hon. friend asks whether I am alarmed about the situation. I am alarmed about it, and I have said so in the house many times. Canada is a deficit country as
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far as coal is concerned, and the deficit has reached extreme proportions. Naturally, with perhaps fifty per cent or more of our entire consumption of coal dependent upon sources over which we have no control, we are in an unpleasant position with trouble brewing in the coal fields on which we depend. He asks whether I am dependent on the Minister of Labour for stepping up coal production in Canadian mines. I do all I can to step up production within the jurisdiction of my portfolio, and the Minister of Labour does all he can in the administration of his portfolio to the same end. Naturally we work in close cooperation. I know of no operation which can be stepped up and which is not being stepped up by reason of lack of funds. If my hon. friend knows of such an operation, I would be very glad to be informed. One of our experts would go there immediately, and I can assure my hon. friend that if we were convinced that the output could be stepped up, the necessary funds would be forthcoming.
Mr. HAN'SELL:	What would be the procedure? The minister has made quite a liberal statement which will go out to the country. If a coal mining company says: "If we can get another fifty men we will put in another shaft, 'but we are not going to do it out of our own funds," what procedure would it have to adopt to get assistance? The coal mining industry of Canada over a period of years has been running pretty close to the edge, and a few cents reduction in the price of coal might mean putting them out of business. Would the coal miming company have to get in touch with the minister, or what?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The procedure would be for the secretary of the company to write to the secretary of the emergency ooal production board, with headquarters in Ottawa, and1 state the position. The board would immediately delegate one of its experts to go and examine the situation on the ground, and if the expert reported favourably the board would take action immediately.


Agar Rodney Adamson: May I ask what has happened to Allied Brass? Is it still under the same management?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, it is turning out brass to capacity and has been, I think, since the present management took charge.


Clarence Gillis: When the hon. member for
Macleod was speaking a moment ago, he made a statement which I think the minister

overlooked, and which may confuse those reading Hansard in the future. He stated that no subvention is ever paid directly to a coal company. That statement is not correct. At the present time the water-borne coal coming up the St. Lawrence is subsidized to the extent of one dollar a ton. The Dominion Coal company own the boats that bring that coal, the shipping company being a subsidiary of the coal company. In that way the subvention is paid. directly to the coal company. So that subventions do go direct to the coal companies in some cases.
Mr. MiaoNICOL: The minister said yesterday that I might bring up the question of magnesium metal on this item.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister a year ago gave us a glowing account of what he hoped at that time to achieve from the plant that was proposed to be erected. He stated that the market price on May 20, 1942, of magnesium metal was between 33 and 34 cents a pound. Then he aded, "We expect to get it for about half that, but I would not care to be too specific about it." Well, this new plant was put in at a cost of $4469,500, of which $820,000 was working capital, according to a return which was brought down some days ago, but instead of getting magnesium metal from this plant at half the price of 33 or 34 cents a pound, or 16 to 17 cents a pound, we are paying, according to the return that was brought down on May 24 of this year, 39-7 cents a pound. AVould the minister explain why the price of magnesium metal is so high?
I remember when I brought up the subject of magnesium metal in 1941-this was before it came into the minister's department-I asked the Minister of Mines and Resources a question arising out of an article which had appeared in the paper about a magnesium plant. My question was about magnesium metal, but the Minister of Mines and Resources in his reply spoke of magnesium-two different things, entirely. Magnesium is an explosive; magnesium metal is a metal. The Minister of Mines and Resources said at that time that a plant was being erected- up the Gatineau to produce magnesium. Later on the plant to produce magnesium metal, the plant likely referred to in the article, was erected at Haley. At that time I was interested in the question of magnesium metal, because I knew a man in Hamilton-I have known him for quite a few years-a man by the name of Ralph Keemle, a regular genius who had developed a process for the production of

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magnesium metal from dolomite through the use of electricity, and I was informed that he could produce magnesium metal at from 8 to 10 cents a pound, which is from one-fifth to one-quarter of the price we are now paying. I think the minister said that Mr. Keemle had been consulted, or had been invited to Ottawa, but if he was invited to Ottawa he got rather short shift, because the government, as everyone knows, took up the process that had been developed by our own national research, and brought about the formation of a crown company. I never did think that Mr. Keemle got a square deal or was treated fairly. I always felt that anyone who was capable of developing a process that worked, as he did, should be given a chance. But that is all past now. What I am anxious to know now is why the price of magnesium metal is so high? Why is it so much higher than the minister informed the house it would be when this new plant got into operation? I should also like to ask him how many pounds of magnesium metal are used in the average aeroplane? The return that was brought down on May 24 of this year showed that we have produced up to the end of April, 1943, 1,186 tons of magnesium metal, and if the amount which was reported on a former occasion as the approximate amount which was used per .plane, or 2000 pounds, that would mean that we have produced up to the end of April this year enough for more than 500 planes.
What in the world are we to do with this plant after the war? Magnesium metal is a light metal, two-thirds the weight of aluminum, but it cannot take the place of aluminum in every respect. Aluminum has to be used as an alloy to prevent an explosion of magnesium metal, and this latter metal is used as an alloy in aluminum to give rigidity. It is quite an investment we have made in this plant. I have no fault to find with the plant having been built. On the contrary I am inclined to congratulate the minister for having the plant put up to produce magnesium metal. But why is the metal so costly, so much higher than the minister thought would be the price when the plant was in operation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will appreciate that the government embarked on a new process for the manufacture of magnesium metal. The process was moved from a small pilot plant into large scale production. Certain tests were made as a result of studies of the results from the pilot plant, from which certain assumptions were made as to the cost of large-scale operation. I am optimistic enough to
think that those predictions were not so far out of line as the costs during the month of April, which my hon. friend has given, would indicate. There has been some difficulty in the metallurgy of the retorts; there has been a great deal of distortion and breaking there, which has been a source of considerable cost in the matter of supplies. The cost of quarrying, milling and reduction has not yet been brought down to a reasonable level. As my hon. friend knows, we have opened up a new quarry, and we have not really got the quarrying costs shaken down. The other large item is the cost of ferro-silicate, which is mixed with the powdered rock to make briquettes. The cost of that operation is considerably higher than had beeen anticipated, owing to the war situation. I would point out, however, that the capital expenditure for this plant has been very low as compared to alternative processes. We investigated the cost of a chemical process for producing ten tons of magnesium a day, and the estimated cost given us was something over $9,000,000. This plant has been built for a little over $3,000,000; it is producing to capacity, and I am optimistic enough to hope that the price will be brought down to a competitive level with the chemical process.
Then my hon. friend asked about the future of magnesium after the war. At the present time this plant is supplying all Canada's needs for magnesium metal, with a fair surplus left over for export. Magnesium is a metal that is much stronger than aluminum pound for pound; it has that advantage over aluminum. The disadvantage is that magnesium is subject to corrosion, whereas aluminum is not. The two are competitive in the light metal field for certain uses, particularly in the building of aeroplanes and aeroplane engines; in many uses magnesium is essential and has great advantages over aluminum. Undoubtedly there will be a market, and a considerable market, for magnesium metal after the war. Whether Canada can have a share of that market will depend upon whether our costs can be brought down so that they will be competitive with other types of production. In any event, Canada has an assured supply of magnesium for the war and for the post-war period.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Has Canada tried to obtain magnesium from salt water, as they are doing in Britain? [DOT]
Mr. HOWE; The extraction of magnesium from salt water is a well known processs; it is used in the United States and in Britain. It is the old chemical process. Canada went to a thermal process, which we believe to be the
War Appropriation-Supplies

process of the future and which involves a very much smaller capital expenditure. But, as I say, I have not been able to bring the cost of production down to the cost which I was once optimistic enough to give the house.


Howard Charles Green: Last year serious shortages developed in some of the base metals such as zinc, lead, copper and several others. As a result of that shortage, the government entered upon a policy of stimulating the production of certain metals through the agency of a crown company known as Wartime Metals corporation. Apparently that corporation has taken over the operation of certain mines; a return brought down in the house on March 24 listed twelve that had been so taken over. What progress has been made in stimulating the production of base metals, and what is the policy of the government in regard to supplying miners for base metal mines? In British Columbia, mines operated by private companies are under a handicap as compared with those which have been taken over by Wartime Metals corporation. I understand that priority for labour is given to the mines operated by the crown company; yet in at least some cases production could be increased more rapidly by sending ten men, let us say, to a mine operated by a private company than by sending the same ten men to a mine operated by the crown company. I think the government would be well advised to revise its present policy and at least give a private company with an operating mine equal priority in labour with the mine operated by the crown.
Then I should like to know from the minister whether any loans have been made to private companies; whether consideration has been given to extending the policy by loaning money to operating companies. Again it might be that if this were done it would result in greater production, and getting that production more quickly, than by putting the same amount of money into a mine operated by the crown. Would the minister explain what the policy is with regard to these mines?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend will understand that Canada has not been short of the metals he mentions. Canada is the largest exporter of metals in the world, but there has been a world shortage of copper, lead, nickel and zinc, and Canada has succeeded in helping to meet those shortages to a considerable extent. Our production of refined metals has increased as follows:
	1939	1942
	Tons	Tons
Refined copper	... 232,000	270,600Refined lead	... 191,000	243,800Refined nickel	... 64,500	93.300Refined zinc	... 175,600	216,000
This indicates that the efforts of the government to increase the production of metals of which there is a world shortage for war purposes have met with a good deal of success. Wartime Metals corporation has been the instrument of the government in certain operations, more particularly in the field of rare metals such as chrome, tungsten, molybdenum and metals of that kind, of which Canada has not sufficient. The company has been quite successful. It has brought in a chrome mine in the eastern townships; it is operating what we believe to be the richest tungsten mine on the continent, which we hope will make Canada self-contained in regard to tungsten.
Mr. GREEN Which mine is that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is out in British Columbia.


Howard Charles Green: The Emerald mine?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I believe so. It is actually carrying on certain developments for the production of strategic minerals. These are developments which private industry has not been willing to undertake, owing to the fact that the use of these strategic minerals in peace time is so small that no peace-time future for the mines could be assured, sufficient to permit private enterprise to finance.
The hon. member has asked if the government has financed the development of mines. The Canadian government has not done so. I am not sure I can say it has never done so, but it has not been the practice because the Canadian government has not been short of standard base metals. But it has arranged with the Metals Reserve Corporation of the United States to finance certain properties, the output of which would be helpful to the metals situation in the United States.


Howard Charles Green: That is all under the direction of the metals controller in Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct. We have encouraged any production that would be helpful to the war effort, and we have arranged for financing by the Metals Reserve corporation of properties which promised to be immediately helpful to the war effort. I know of no proposal that had real merit and which promised quick results which has not had help extended to it, through the agency of the metals controller or by Wartime Metals corporation.


Howard Charles Green: Does the government operate these mines through Wartime Metals Corporation, or in some cases is money loaned to a private company, and operations carried on by that private company?

War Appropriation-Supplies


Clarence Decatur Howe: Both procedures are followed. Wartime Metals Corporation is actually operating certain mines-perhaps three or four or five. In addition, the government either as principal or as agent is lending money to certain mines on a self-liquidating basis to encourage the production of minerals.


Howard Charles Green: In the latter type of cases the private company is in charge of the operation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: The minister said nothing about priority with respect to labour, one of the most serious features in the whole situation. I understand a private company does not receive the same priority for miners as does a mine operated by the crown. Is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no difference in priorities, whether the mine is owned by the government or by private interests. My hon. friend will have ample opportunity to go into that when the estimates of the Department of Labour are before the committee, as soon as I have finished with mine.


Howard Charles Green: Of course, mind you, it affects the minister's department, because it affects the amount of metals produced.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On item 8-Departmental administration, $9,300,000.
Mr. SHAW:: I should like to refer to the question of the expropriation of property carried out by the department, or by an administrative body within the department. Has each government department machinery to handle the expropriation of land or other property, or is there one body within the government which handles that particular aspect of government enterprise?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Department of Munitions and Supply has retained the land department of the Canadian National Railways to handle the expropriation and acquisition of property required by the department, either for airports or for industrial purposes. The other departments either have their own officials, or use some other agency of government.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I was particularly interested in learning whether any uniformity of policy as between the departments exists? Ordinarily when an expropriation takes place the individual concerned is compensated to a higher degree than would normally obtain if the property were sold on the open market. In most instances property is taken which the individual may not be desirous of selling. I
have in mind a case where an individual purchased a parcel of land for $150, and had paid $50 taxes. He considers the property worth every cent put into it, but the departmental officials assert that $10 is a fair price for it, in their expropriation proceedings.
In certain departments we have found no such condition. In fact one sometimes thinks they are generous to the extreme. In a matter of this kind we ought to have facilities for preventing the development of any unfair situation. What final say does the individual have, if he wishes to protest against any expropriation? Must he abide by the decision of the department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, not at all. Once expropriation is taken, the matter goes before the Exchequer Court of Canada, The owner need not accept any offer made by the department, and the department is not bound to make an offer to the owner. Expropriation involves adjudication by the exchequer court. To save litigation, an attempt is usually made to settle with the owner without going to court. In small purchases an expert for the department makes up his mind as to what he believes to be a fair value for the land, and makes an offer to the owner. If the owner, the officer and the department agree, the matter can be settled without going to court. But no property owner need necessarily accept any offer made by the department; he can let the exchequer court make the decision.


George Hugh Castleden: I understood the
minister's department took over some property in the town of Renfrew, in connection with the development of magnesium. I believe it was the property of the Ottawa Valley Packing com-pany.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is another transaction;
it has nothing to do with magnesium.


George Hugh Castleden: It was taken over by the minister's department?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: What was paid for
the property, and to whom was it paid?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I doubt if settlement has
been made. The property was expropriated. I think no settlement has been reached, and in due course a decision will be handed down by the exchequer court.


George Hugh Castleden: Is the matter under
litigation?
iMr. HOWE: Yes, it is under expropriation.


George Hugh Castleden: It has been taken
over?
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Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. FAIR:: Since there are now several
million bushels of wheat on farms in western Canada, and since it appears that within a couple of months another crop will be coming on, I am wondering whether sufficient lumber can be provided so that storage can be built on the farms to provide cover for the crops which will be taken off.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I put on Hansard last night the amount of lumber available for civilian supplies. I assure the hon. member we will make all the lumber available for civilian supplies that the high priority requirements of the war will permit.


Gordon Graydon: When we were debating the munitions and supply bill I raised the matter of better representation of labour in the Department of Munitions and Supply. I should like the minister to comment upon the possibilities of that. The Department of Munitions and Supply is a specialized department which covers a multitude of matters, but it does seem to me that there is one serious lack, namely, representation of labour in- the so-called munitions and supply empire. What is the reason for this? What steps has the minister in mind to cure the situation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As my hon. friend knows,
the predecessor of the Department of Munitions and Supply was the war supply board. This was made up of four men, one of whom was a representative of labour in the person of Mr. Howard Chase, the highest ranking member of the railway brotherhoods in Canada, a man of exceptional ability. When the department was formed Mr. Chase was made director-general of labour relations. I believe he performed excellent service for labour and for the department. His work was outstanding, but inside of twelve months the one desire of organized labour in Canada was that Mr. Chase should be severed from the Department of Munitions and Supply. The only time I have known the Canadian congress of labour and the trades labour council to be unanimous was when they pointed out quite vigorously that it was the duty of the Department of Labour to attend to all labour matters and that the Department of Munitions and Supply should not have a director-general of labour relations. The position was abolished at about the time the national war labour board was formed, and this board took over the functions which were being performed by Mr. Chase. We certainly had the approval of organized labour generally in that step.

We have appointed representatives of labour to operating boards. There are very few operating boards, such as Wartime Housing, Toronto Shipbuilding and so on that do not have representatives of labour. Almost any operating board that my hon. friend can name I am sure will have a representative of labour. These men have been most helpful to the different projects. I would certainly add a labour man to any operating board that might be appointed in the future. If there are any difficulties in my department through not having labour representation, I am very much surprised to hear it.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: The minister has been told about the housing situation in Toronto. I notice that under the new scheme of converting larger houses into apartments about $250,000 will be expended in Toronto to convert fifty houses. When they asked for applications for conversion I understand they got over a thousand. The conversion of fifty houses in Toronto will not do very much good. A great deal has been done to provide war-time housing in other cities, but no housing of this type has been provided in Toronto.
The minister states that workers can find places to go in Toronto, that there is no lack of accommodation. The fact is that people are being crowded. As I said before, families of four are crowding into one or two rooms in the slum districts, because that is the only place they can go. Unless some relief is given, I do not know what will happen. Some of these districts will be converted into slums. The minister said that there would be an exodus of people from Toronto as time went on. because not so much work would be done in the city. He must remember that there are many industries in the small communities around Toronto, and there is an exodus of workers out, of the city every morning and back again at night. In some cases the beds are never allowed to get cold; one man gets up to go to work and another man goes to bed. I wish the minister would give some consideration to Toronto in this connection.
Is the administration of this conversion plan to be under Wartime Housing or under National Housing? I have looked at the different figures given in Hansard, but I find one set of figures in one return and another set in another return. I do not understand just what they are. I notice that in connection with the administration of Wartime Housing, rentals of $2,30S.59 a month are being paid. I should like to know why fifty-five different premises are necessary. In addition, there is an archi-

War Appropriation-Supplies
tectural staff, and outside architects are employed as well. There is also a manager of public relations who is also the editor of Home Life magazine who receives a salary of $260 a month.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What for?
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's) He is the manager of public relations in Wartime Housing.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The .man to whom my hon. friend has just referred is associated with Wartime Housing Limited. His work is to organize community services, and I am told that he is doing excellent work.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What is the necessity for paying these rentals?


Mr. CHEVRIER:: What rentals?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The rental of fifty-five premises throughout Canada for Wartime Housing Limited. For instance in one place in Toronto a total of 10,496 square feet are rented.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Naturally Wartime Housing must have office space in which to function. My hon. friend has mentioned the space occupied by the head office in Toronto where a considerable staff is maintained to handle the business of Wartime Housing. Wherever there is a considerable concentration of houses, an administrative office is necessary for the collection of rents and to carry on the duties incidental to operating a number of houses.


Clarence Gillis: The minister made a statement a moment ago to the effect that on all operating boards in his department he has labour representation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not say, "all". I said,
on operating boards, certain operating boards.


Clarence Gillis: The minister mentioned the Toronto Shipbuilding company.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Clarence Gillis: Would the minister put on
record who his labour representative is on the Toronto Shipbuilding company board? The minister might also tell the committee how the representatives are appointed, who recommends them, and how the selection is made.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The representative on the
Toronto Shipbuilding company is Mr. William Jenoves. The men are appointed after consultation with the Minister of Labour. I believe the practice is to distribute the appointments among various labour organizations.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Are the rents collected at these various points?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: On the question of
the hon. member for St. Paul's, he will realize that I have allowed him to ask several questions, with which I believe the committee was satisfied, that came under item 3. I do not think the committee would be in the mood to reopen a discussion of which the committee is fully seized. I ask the hon. member to be brief.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This is under a question of administration, and surely is appropriate on this item.


Lionel Chevrier: That was discussed last evening.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Are all these rents collected at various points?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, they are all collected at various points.


Robert Fair: I would draw to the attention
of the minister that binder twine is of great importance to our farmers, who use it to take care of their crops. On February 15 last an order was passed forbidding the manufacture of 550 or 600 foot twine after that date. These are the kinds which are most in use, the 500 foot variety is of less tensile strength, and farmers Who use it are likely to run into a whole lot of trouble. It may also disagreeably affect the farm labour situation, because one of the greatest vexations in harvest time comes from poor twine. This is a condition which should be remedied, and if there is any possible way of doing so, we should get back to our old supply of 550 and 600 foot twine.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As my hon. friend knows, the supply of twine has been seriously interfered with by the war. I will bring the remarks of my hon. friend to the attention of those responsible for our supply.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
9. Air services:	*
To provide for special radio services, weather observation and teletype services-
Radio	 $1,761,325
Meteorological	 1,366,000
17 additional radio range stations (maintenance):	new division
office at Vancouver; additional
staff at headquarters	 374,460
Subsidization of radio-operator
students	 100,000
Gordon Graydon: These air services are
bulked under four different totals. Would the minister break down these items, which are rather large, in order that we may have the record on Hansard? '
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Clarence Decatur Howe: These items are the expenditures made by the air services for carrying on the war. They are apart from the ordinary estimates of the department which are contained in the civilian estimates. The department builds radio services for the armed forces in the northwest and along all the operational routes of the air services, and in many cases the department operates the services. The department has greatly expanded its weather services in order to provide accurate weather information for the armed forces. This vote covers functions performed which are apart from the ordinary operations covered by civilian estimates. The break-down is: Radio service, which contains a revote of $377,500, $1,671,325; meteorological service, $1,366,000; civil aviation service, that is air traffic control, $680,000; operation and maintenance of municipal airports used by the armed services, $336,600; Moncton to Newfoundland airport, a revote of $181,500, $976,700; construction and improvements of Montreal airport, $500,000; a total of $5,620,625. For radio services, a supplementary estimate, to subsidize radio operator students. We have put in a school for radio operators.


Gordon Graydon: Where is that school?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am not sure of the details. It is a new plan put into operation some months ago when there was an acute shortage of radio operators.


Mr. REID:: Are the students assisted
financially?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; they are paid a small salary while they are going through the school. The subsidization of radio operator students, $100,000; maintenance of seventeen additional radio stations, a new division office at Vancouver, and additional staff at headquarters, $374,460; bringing the grand total to $6,095,085.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I assume that these additional student operators carry on in a civilian capacity?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Even though the service may be rendered on behalf of one of the three branches of the armed services. How are those students chosen?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I could not say. I think we have advertised for operators. Many of them are girls; in fact, the number of girls studying for this branch of the service is probably three or four to one compared with men.


Frederick Davis Shaw: Are they regarded as civil servants after they complete their course?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No, they are purely war temporaries. There is no permanency about it. Anyone desiring to take the course can write the deputy minister of transport and be advised.


Clarence Gillis: In connection with these particular radio and meteorological services, are they not carried on in conjunction with the armed forces? At Rockcliffe here, for example, the Department of Transport operate this service, and quite a percentage of the girls and young students who are not qualified for aircrew and so forth are routed into this work and trained.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes; the civilian operators operate with the air force. There is no real pattern about it. I think practically all the meteorological service is handled by civilians of the Department of Transport. The control of airports, I would say, was 75 per cent civilian. If an airport is handling largely operational work by the armed services, it may be that the traffic officer is a man in uniform. But where civilian traffic and military use are combined, ordinarily the control of the airport is civilian, under an officer of the Department of Transport. It is by arrangement between the civilian operators and the armed forces, and there has been no difference of opinion to date that has not been ironed out quickly. It is a question of who can do the work more efficiently. The purpose is to have the work done by civilians, provided it can be carried out efficiently in order that trained men may be used for other duties.


Clarence Gillis: I have heard a complaint to the effect that some of the boys in the armed service were taken in and were actually performing this work in uniform at soldier's pay, under transport, and their objection was that if they were doing the work they should be paid the rate of wages that would be paid to civil servants doing similar work.


Clarence Decatur Howe: 
John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the minister explain the significance of, and state what is included in, the item of $100,000 for the subsidizing of radio-operator students.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have just explained that.
Perhaps the hon. member was out of the house at the time. There was an acute shortage of trained radio operators, and courses were opened to train operators. The students are subsidized while taking the course. They are paid a small salary while taking the course, and the $100,000 is to make funds available so that this may be possible.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sorry the minister
had to repeat that, but I did not hear the explanation.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: With regard to
radio, and the item "meteorological," is that for equipment as well as for personal services?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. This is an operating vote for services. It does not include capital.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10. Civil aviation:
Extra airport traffic control
systems	 $680,000
Operation and maintenance of municipal (terminal) airports.. 336,600 Additional facilities-Moncton to
Newfoundland airline	 976,700
Improvements to North Bay airport	
Operation and	maintenance-
Northwest air route	
Montreal airport improvements.. 500,000
Thomas Reid: Can the minister explain the
situation in regard to the airport at Sea Island? That airport was purchased many years ago by the city of Vancouver, and Trans-Canada came into being and later a plant was established on that property. I am interested to know the exact situation and whether Vancouver city still owns the property. Are we renting the property on which the operations are now being carried on?


Clarence Decatur Howe: At the outbreak of the war the Sea island property was leased by the city to the government for a dollar a year. Since then, the government has maintained the property and used it, and, I may add, greatly improved it. Additional property has been added; runways have been made and improved, and of course a great many buildings have been put up there which will no doubt be returned to the city at the end of the war. My hon. friend asks about the property occupied by Boeings. My memory fails me at the moment in that
regard. I know that an attempt was made to work out an amicable arrangement with the city by which the government could acquire the property, and expropriation proceedings were instituted. I believe a settlement was effected, and the area is being occupied by Boeings. Owing to the large expenditure involved in completing the Boeing plant and equipping it, it is absolutely necessary that the government should own it.


Thomas Reid: Do I understand that all the property outside Boeings, leased by the city council for one dollar a year, will revert to the city after the war, buildings and all?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. McKINNON (Kenora-Rainy River):: There are a few remarks I wish to make with reference to civil aviation and also post-war civil aviation and its relationship to the development of northern Canada. First of all, I wish to congratulate the minister upon recently informing us of the opening up of the transatlantic airline service. I know he mentioned then that it was not for commercial purposes, but I do hope it is the beginning of a post-war civil aviation programme. In the meantime, however, it will greatly facilitate the carriage of mail for the overseas forces. During the last few years we have had very important construction development in northern Canada, undertaken largely by the United States forces for the purpose of supporting United States operations in the Aleutians and Alaska, or to assist in the ferrying of aircraft to Alaska. The project that has received the most notice is, of course, the Alaska highway, which has been constructed and is now in operation. However, there are many other projects of equal importance. For instance, there is the development of the oil fields in the Fort Norman area and the survey of a railroad from Prince George to Fairbanks.
I note by press reports of the last few days that the United States army has done a great deal of development work in the Fort Norman oil fields. I feel sure that it will be of great assistance to Canada, not only now but after the war when we open up this territory as we all hope and expect we shall. These developments have stirred the imagination of Canadians, and the question is being asked, why not develop these resources, and also, what is Canada prepared to do when the war is over?
At this point I should like to pay a tribute to one of the pioneers of civilian aviation, Don Martin of Montreal, whose untimely passing
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from among us a few days ago removes one of those pioneers with great vision of aviation. He will be greatly missed by the old-line bush pilots and bush operating companies, for whom he has done so much in the help he gave them in building up bush routes in northern Canada.
We in Canada have entered into an agreement with the United States government whereby all immovable facilities constructed by the United States in Canada will revert to this country at the end of the war or within a specified time thereafter. If we are to carry on the development of our northern areas when the United States forces withdraw, a definite programme of post-war development should be planned now. The present flying operations in northern Canada have been essentially a war-time undertaking. However, this flying is really airline flying with modern heavy transport aircraft and with radio aids to navigation that are found on Trans-Canada air liners. It goes without saying that at the end of the war the vast majority of the wartime projects in northern Canada will be discontinued, and the necessity for the present transport operations in that area will cease. The continuance of post-war flying in northern areas with the exception of bush operations is dependent on active economic development there. Therefore, I ask, is Canada making adequate and proper preparations to develop our arctic regions? The economic development of Canada up to date has largely been confined to the southern part of our country. However, it is now being realized that the northern regions have tremendous resources which are capable of development.
That very important and profitable development of these resources is not only feasible but practicable has been amply demonstrated by the Russians, who for a good many years past have had an active programme of exploration and exploitation in Siberia. To-day, with the help of the present advances in aviation, Canada's north assumes ever-increasing importance. Trans-polar flying, which is already a practical undertaking, awaits only a little further advance in long-distance stratosphere flying to make it a commercial possibility. In view of these events, the Canadian arctic regions can no longer be regarded as a wilderness but must be looked upon as a vital thoroughfare linking North America by air with Asia and the continent of Europe.
There are many reasons, then, to support the belief that Canada's post-war expansion will be northward toward the arctic. This expansion has been made possible by war-time advances in aviation, but its permanent basis

must rest on the economic development of the arctic regions. If this development is to be undertaken successfully and promptly as soon as the war is over, steps should be taken immediately to embark on a programme of investigation and exploration. Therefore I suggest that a strong interdepartmental committee of the government should be formed to explore all possible avenues of development. I understand that an international committee has already been formed to coordinate the economic development of northwestern Canada and Alaska; but we need more than that. We need a national committee to be responsible for the whole of northern Canada. Incidentally it might be observed that the United States government has already organized a very strong group to undertake similar investigations. This indicates that the United States is taking a great interest in the post-war international air routes which traverse northern Canada. We have many competent and experienced1 men available, men who pioneered northern Canada and the many bush flying routes working in cooperation with mining men, who through the use of aircraft developed our northern mining areas.
We also have to-day a great airline company, the C.P.A., who have taken over many of the bush-line companies and are operating a successful service in many parts of Canada.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: What company is that?


Hugh Bathgate McKinnon: I do not know whether my hon. friend has ridden on many of their planes, but I assume he has ridden on some of their trains and I hope he enjoyed the ride.
We have available in Canada men who are well acquainted with the north, but the knowledge and ability of these men must be focused collectively on specific problems and, further, their efforts must be correlated for the purpose of definite action under the strongest possible government support.
A few of the problems to which such a committee, if it is set up, should give consideration, are the following:
1.	The post-war development of Fort Norman oil fields and McMurray tar sands.
2.	Active exploration for new oil fields.
3.	The post-war disposition of the Alaska highway.
4.	The development of post-war air routes to Europe by Hudson bay, Greenland and Iceland; and to Europe and Asia via the northwest staging route and the Mackenzie river route.

War Appropriation-Supplies
5.	The investigation of trans-polar air routes to Europe and Asia, including the selection of suitable bases and plans for development.
6.	Meteorological investigations, particularly as they relate to trans-polar flying.
7.	Investigations of low-temperature flying, involving low temperature operation of engines and accessory equipment. The United States is already carrying out an extensive programme of research in this field.
8.	Investigation of problems connected with the construction of airfields on permanently frozen soils.
9.	The study of suitable types of buildings for arctic regions.
10.	Extension of the navigation season out of Churchill by the coordinated use of aircraft and powerful ice-breakers.
In addition, Mr. Chairman, I know, and I think the committee knows, that there are many other problems of tremendous importance to the people of Canada so far as the north and the development of aviation are concerned, which I believe go hand in hand together. I hope the government will take action now to see to it that we in Canada have our place in the aviation picture of the universe when this struggle is over.


Mr. KNOWLES:: I should like to say a
few words on this item, with particular reference to the subsection which deals with the operation and maintenance of municipal airports. I refer particularly to Stevenson field at Winnipeg. This is a matter of definite interest not only to the people of the part of the country from which I come; it is one of those cases where a local interest is also a national interest. Previous speakers already have emphasized the importance of Canada's future in the air and the necessity of our realizing the steps that should be taken to assure our position in the post-war world. Winnipeg, as is well-known, lies in the centre of the country on an east and west line, and practically in the centre of the continent of North America; and we feel that it is important to Canada's future in the air that we have in Winnipeg an adequate airport. By "adequate" I mean an airport with facilities that make it possible to take care of the largest planes now flying, or that may fly in the near future.
Perhaps the minister is aware that I have been endeavouring to get some information in connection with the attitude of the government toward Stevenson field by certain questions which I have placed on the order
paper. I may take a moment or two to summarize what I have done. First of all, on May 13 I gave notice of a motion asking for the tabling of documents relating to the possible enlargement of Stevenson field, but on May 17 the Minister of National Defence for Air advised me across the floor of the house that the material for which I was asking was quite voluminous and suggested that perhaps I would look at it privately and indicate what portions I should like to have brought down. Subsequently his department gave me the privilege of looking through that file. I found it very interesting; it dealt with many improvements to the field for which the government was responsible and which I was glad to note, but it did not make any reference to ways and means of lengthening the runways, which is the matter we feel should be given immediate attention, both for war-time needs and for the post-war period. After having looked over the file which I was shown by the Department of National Defence for Air, I placed a question on the order paper on May 18, in which I asked:
1.	Has any consideration been given by the government, or by any department or branch thereof, to the question of re-routing the Souris branch of the Canadian Pacific Railway in order to permit a northward extension of Stevenson field at Winnipeg?
2.	Have any representations in the above matter been made to the government, or to any department or branch thereof, and if so, by whom?
That question was passed as an order for return, and when the return was brought down the answer to question No. 1 was "no." The answer to question No. 2 was "yes," that representations had been made by the St. James-Winnipeg airport commission. Subsequently, on June 16, the house passed a motion in my name calling for the tabling of a copy of those representations, together with any replies made by the government. Of course that was only a few days ago, and the return has not been brought,down as yet.
The department of mines and natural resources of Manitoba is taking a keen interest in this matter and has prepared a folder which contains two quite interesting maps, one of North America by itself and the other showing North America in relation to the north pole and to Europe, Asia and Africa which lie on the other side of the north pole. This map indicates the strategic position held by Winnipeg, not only for Winnipeg but for Canada as a whole, in the air map of the world which as we now realize centres around the northern part of the globe. In addition to the efforts

War Appropriation-Supplies

being made by the department of mines and natural resources of Manitoba, one of the Winnipeg newspapers has been doing what I regard, in spite of its political opposition to the group to which I belong, as a commendable job in emphasizing the importance of the taking of action at the present time. The Winnipeg Tribune has pointed out that at Stevenson field we have the possibilities of an airport to serve the whole of Canada in the post-war world. It is located conveniently to the city, being only three miles from the centre of Winnipeg. As we all know, it is rather unusual on the North American continent to have airport facilities quite so close to the centre of a great city. Even before the government, under the stress of war, assumed a major share of the responsibility for the operation of the field, the airport had facilities which were quite modern; in fact it had everything but runways of sufficient length for the largest planes flying to-day. On May 15 of this year, in a feature article dealing with this matter, the Tribune said:
AH types of planes which so far have come here-big bombers included-have been able to land at Stevenson field, but it took skilful piloting to bring them down safely. On the present runways they could just make it, with little or nothing to spare.
A little later in the same article, after the assets of Stevenson field had been recounted, I find this further statement which I should like to quote:
But its runways are not long enough. . . .


Clarence Decatur Howe: What is my hon. friend quoting from?


Stanley Howard Knowles: From the Winnipeg
Tribune of May 15, 1943.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Who was it said he could not land there, or just made it?


Stanley Howard Knowles: This is an article signed by Mr. L. F. Earl who said), if I may quote that part again, that all types of planes have been able to land at Stevenson field but that it took skilful piloting to bring them down safely.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think it would require an exceptionally skilful pilot to land at that field.


Stanley Howard Knowles: The article goes on to say:
A modern aerodrome, so sa3' the engineers, should have minimum runways of 4,000 feet and should be capable of expansion to 5,000

feet. This is on a sea level basis. Winnipeg is about 800 feet above sea level, so these distances should be extended to 4,200 and 5,300 feet respectively.
The point at issue at the present time, in view of the fact that our longest runway is only 4,400 feet, is the necessity, if these runways are to be lengthened', of re-routing a portion of the Souris branch of the Canadian Pacific railway which runs just north of the present limit of Stevenson field. At the present time there is a good deal of vacant land there, and the railway could be shifted to make possible the lengthening of these' runways. The newspaper to which I have already referred has been dealing with this matter at some length. It has carried reports from Ottawa to the effect that no consideration is being given to this matter as yet, and it expresses apprehension lest the matter be put off too long, and something happen to that vacant land north of Stevenson field, with the result that in order to have longer runways it might be necessary to go farther out into the country, or that Winnipeg might be by-passed altogether.
Despite the fact that the answer in the return which I have already mentioned was "no", would the minister state whether any consideration has been given to the shifting of the railway line to which I have referred, to make possible the northward1 extension of that field, and the subsequent lengthening of the runway?
I should also like to ask-and I confess I do so on the basis of rumours I have heard; I cannot substantiate them, but they are disquieting-whether anj; plans are being made for establishing in Manitoba an airport at some point other than Stevenson field, where such a fine start has been made. Would the minister authoritatively set aside that rumour, and let us know that any future enlargement of airport facilities will be at the field where, as I say, considerable progress has already been made and where facilities are in close proximity to the centre of a great city which, as I have pointed out, is situated in the centre of the continent, and is in a location strategic to the future of air travel in Canada?
I should hope the minister would reply to my question as to whether any consideration is being given to the measures necessary to lengthen these runways, and whether in

War Appropriation-Air Services
his knowledge plans are under way for any other airport in Manitoba to take the place of Stevenson field.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Stevenson field is a first class airport, by any standards. It is used by Trans-Canada Air Lines, by the ferrying service, and by the Royal Canadian Air Force. It is quite satisfactory for any use to which it is being put at the moment. The approaches are ideal. There is much more to an airport than the length of its runways. There are many airports with longer runways than those on Stevenson field which are not nearly so good as Stevenson field. The services using the field to-day are satisfied with the present conditions, and it is a very busy airport.
Recently the city has interested itself in exploring the possibilities of extending the runways. The department has given the city certain advice in that matter. A plan was sent out about a week or ten days ago, containing the department's suggestion for any future expansion of the airport. May I point out that the airport is not the property of the dominion government, but rather that of the municipality of St. James. The department is the lessee of the airport only for war purposes. If during the war the need for a larger airport presents itself, that need will be met by the dominion government. After the war the airport will be turned back to its owner, and the government will at any time discuss with the owner the possibility of enlargements.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Will the minister answer my other question? Are there any plans for replacing Stevenson field with any other airport so far as Manitoba is concerned?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Hon. C. D. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):: While the estimates for the Department of National Defence for Air were under consideration, some questions were
asked. Those answers are now ready, and could be presented in about fifteen minutes, if we are allowed to place the answers on Hansard. My assistant will be only too glad to do so, if the committee approves. These are noncontentious matters.


Gordon Graydon: The minister is perfectly sure it will not take more than fifteen minutes?


Charles Gavan Power: H it is more than fifteen minutes, we will stop.


Gordon Graydon: Often it takes longer than
we think, and it is now almost eleven o'clock. However, I have no objection to going on until eleven o'clock. Most of us find it a long day, even as it is.


Charles Gavan Power: These are questions asked by hon. members, and no doubt they would like to have the answers on Hansard. Some of the answers involve long schedules, and I would ask permission of the committee to place this information on Hansard. For instance, someone has asked the amount of money spent on aerodromes in different parts of the country. The answer will probably be lengthy, and there would be no point in reading it. I would suggest that it be put on Hansard, without 'haying it read.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: By unanimous consent.


Hon. CYRUS MACMILLAN (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of National Defence for Air):: Mr. Chairman, the hon.
member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked respecting the amount of money paid in the past year for insurance premiums in the various schools; the amount paid by each school per year, and the names of the agents with whom the said insurance is placed. With the consent of the committee I would ask that this be placed on Hansard; it is quite long.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: It is understood that the committee is giving unanimous consent that this be done.


Cyrus Macmillan: The information
follows:
72537-248*

AERO INSURANCE UNDERWRITERS AND CANADIAN AVIATION INSURANCE MANAGERS, LTD. E.F.T.S. and A.O.S. Experience Combined June 1, 1940-March 31, 1943
Insured	Premiums		Air claims reported	Amount of air claims paid	Ground claims reported	Amount of ground claims paid	Amount of air claims out- standing	Amount of ground claims outstanding	Amount of claims paid and outstanding
	Air	Ground							
$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.Elementary Flying Training Schools	371,423 54	251,140 51	70	52,811 75	889	63,110 96	205,200 00	28,942 00	350,064 71Air Observer Schools	190.680 12	134.958 95	28	11,717 31	584	19,263 16	144.874 00	12.065 00	187,919 47562.103 66	386.099 46	98	64.529 06	1.473	82 374 12	350,074 00	41.007 00	537 984 18
Loss Ratio-56*737%
Insurance placed through Companies' own agents.


AERO INSURANCE UNDERWRITERS AND CANADIAN AVIATION INSURANCE MANAGERS, LTD.
[Stage Direction]
Air Observer Schools Experience June 1. 1940-Mar h 31. 1943
Insured	Premiums		Air claims reported	Amount of air claims paid	Ground claims reported	Amount of ground claims paid	Amount of air claims out- standing	Amount of ground claims outstanding	Amount of claims paid and outstanding
	Air	Ground							
	$ cts.	$ cts.		S cts.		$ cts.	$ cts.	3 cts.	$ cts.
No. 1 A.O.S -									
Dominion Skyways (Observers), Limited, Malton, Ontario		21,286 22	12,006 26	4	770 35	85	2,286 81	37,875 00	4,335 00	45,267 16
No. 2 A.O.S.-									
	27,520 59	4.966 80	2	528 50					528 50
No. 3 A.O.S.-									
Prairie Flying School, Limited, Regina, Saskatchewan		20,889 02	14.713 37	1	807 18	70	4,087 05	15.325 00	510 00	20,729 23
No. i A.O.S -									
Leavens Bros. (Training), Limited, London, Ontario		15,583 19	16,064 34	6	1,622 17	53	2,234 68	16,505 00	840 00	21,201 85
No. 5 A.O.S.-									
	17,485 62	14,823 63	1	3,172 00	51	2,415 13		1,570 00	7,157 13
No. 6 A.O.S -									
Prince Albert Air Observer School, Ltd., Prince Albert, Saskatchewan	11,239 48	12,349 09	1	1,169 00	59	1,477 67	14,739 00		17,385 67
No. 7 A.O.S.-									
Portage Air Observer School, Limited, Portage la Prairie, Manitoba	19,478 15	12,824 17	5	1,146 55	48	1,574 83	35,335 00	100 00	38,156 38
No. 8 A.O.S.									
Quebec. Airways (Observers), Limited, Ancienne Lorette, P.Q		16,534 81	18.859 13	3		98	2,644 14	1,100 00	625 00	4,369 14
No. 9 A.O.S.-									
Dominion Skyways (Observers), Limited, St. Johns, P.Q		26,029 45	18.476 70	3	367 35	79	1,196 33	19,075 00	2,645 00	23,283 68
No. 10 A.O.S.-									
Northumberland Air Observer School, Ltd., Chatham, N.B	14.633 59	9,875 46	2	2,134 21	41	1,346 52	4,920 00	1,440 00	9,840 73190,680 12	134,958 95	28	11,717 31	584	19,263 16	144,874 00	12,065 00	187,919 47
s
§
o
m
War Appropriation-Air Services
AERO INSURANCE UNDERWRITERS AND CANADIAN AVIATION INSURANCE MANAGERS, LTD. Elementary Flying Training Schools Experience June 1st, 1940-March 31st, 1943
Insured	Premiums		Air claims reported	Amount of air claims paid	Ground claims reported	Amount of ground claims paid	Amount of air claims out- standing	Amount of ground claims outstanding	Amount of claims paid and outstanding
	Air	Ground							
$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts.	$ cts	$ cts.	$ cts.2. Thunder Bay Air Training School, Limited, Fort William, Ontario. .	16,153 64	10,422 54	2	3,343 37	27	1.411 35	485 00	5.239 723. London Elementary Flying Training School, Limited, London, Ontario	13,807 70	8.501 46	5	10,249 38	25	1,485 63	29,575 00	41,310 0118,051 50	13,253 76	3	427 91	20	5,765 84	250 00	6 443 7525,174 74	3,334 29	5	4.458 98	1	9 00	46.280 00	50,747 986. Northern Saskatchewan Flying Training School, Prince Albert, Saak.	21,881 78	21,305 52	3	3,225 57	72	3,517 ,35	5,500 00	3,130 00	15,372 9219,768 99	11,986 30	2	902 23	36	2,576 27	57 00	3,535 507,728 49	3.801 17	1	328 86	13	1,639 02	2,500 00	4.467 889. St. Catharines Flying Training School, Limited, St. Catharines,	20,087 50	13,697 62	3	733 02	74	2,076 30	45 00	2.854 3210. Hamilton Flying Training School, Ltd., Pendleton, Ontario	20,752 48	15,809 43	2	4,395 58	41	1.823 72	2,500 00	3,200 00	11.919 3011. Quebec Airways (Training) Limited, Cap de la Madeleine, P.Q	20.662 14	13.076 31	6	444 14	85	5,441 26	2.000 00	2.495 00	10.380 4012. Huron County Flying Training School, Limited, Goderich, Ontario....	19,748 27	14,594 69	3	5,949 14	45	7,082 22	29.820 00	450 00	43,301 3613. Eastern Ontario Flying School, Ltd., St. Eugene, Ontario	
.	20,344 86	15,144 01	8	2,411 69	108	8.160 37	28,820 00	1.985 00	41,377 0616.764 82	11.368 10	0	35	1.460 56	50 00	1.510 5617. Nova Scotia Flying Training School, Limited, Stanley, N.S	13,149 73	10,389 84	3	3.034 80	42	4.215 19	7,320 00	5,295 00	19,864 9919. Virden Flying Training School, Limited, Virden, Manitoba	27,693 40	15,485 70	5	2,927 18	49	1.094 02	18,220 00	70 00	22.311 2020. Ontario County Flying Training School, Limited, Oshawa, Ontario ...	24,585 56	16,531 99	4	835 52	49	1,544 09	1,000 00	125 00	3,504 6122. City of Quebec Elementary Flying Training School, Limited, Quebec,	P.Q	4.086 41	2,964 81	1	4 00	14	3,392 85	3,396 8512 136 49	6,868 76	1	126 24	8	718 98	845 2212,961 92	1.986 57	1	25 00	25 0033. Boundary Bay Flying Training School, Ltd., Caron, Saskatchewan.	14,804 21	15,133 50	4	3.745 63	55	3,801 06	7,290 00	3,075 00	17,911 6934. Central Manitoba Flying Training School, Limited, Assiniboia, Sask..	12,384 33	13,634 92	1	141 54	25	1,188 01	90 00	1.419 5535. Miramichi Flying Training School, Ltd., Neepawa, Manitoba	8,694 56	11,849 22	7	5,101 97	65	4,707 87	26,875 00	5,640 00	42,324 84371,423 54	251,140 51	70	52,811 75	889	63,110 96	205,200 00	28,942 00	350,064 71
%
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-Air Services
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-Air Services
The hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart) asked for an analysis or details of those aerodromes included in the central western provinces, excluding British Columbia and Ontario. He asked for information particularly
with respect to Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. This return is very lengthy and complicated, comprising four pages. With the consent of the committee I ask that it be placed on Hansard. It is as follows:
Schedule "A"
Department of National Defence for Air
Summary of commitments for construction of new projects for the purposes of training in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta Period April 1, 1941, to May 31, 1943
Manitoba Saskatchewan Alberta	Total
B.C.A.T.P. units	
$6,929,001 27	$ 1,878,870 51	$4,410,494 23	$13,218,366 01R.A.F. units  	
1,371,765 12	8,990,294 15	4,539,020 61	14,901,079 88Total	
$8,300,766 39	$10,869,164 66	$8,949,514 84Grand total	
$28,119,445 89
Note.-The amounts committed for R.A.F. units are recoverable from the government of the United Kingdom but they are included in this summary and the supporting schedules because reference has been made in the house to construction at places where R.A.F. units are located.
Note.-All the above amounts relate to construction for training purposes and nothing is included for construction for the purposes of defence.
Schedule "B"
Department of National Defence for Air
Commitments for construction of new projects in the province of Manitoba Period April 1, 1941, to May 31, 1943
B.C.A.T.P. Units:
Hargrave, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 19 E.F.T.S.,
Valley River, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 10 S.F.T.S.,
Dauphin	
Chater, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 12 S.F.T.S.,
Brandon	
Douglas, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 12 S.F.T.S.,
Brandon	
Souris, No. 17 S.F.T.S	
Hartney, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 17 S.F.T.S.,
Souris	
Elgin, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 17 S.F.T.S., Souris
Gimli, No. 18 S.F.T.S	
Netley Lake, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 18 S.F.T.S., Gimli	
Totals-B.C.A.T.P. Units-Manitoba	
R.A.F. Units:
Neepawa, No. 35 E.F.T.S	
Eden, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 35 E.F.T.S.,
N"66p3.Wcl		
Petrel, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 33 S.F.T.S.,
Carberry	
Oberon, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 33 S.F.T.S., Carberry	
Totals-R.A.F. Units-Manitoba	
		Works and		Total	
Aerodrome	buildings	during	development	development	period	$ 25,000	00	$ 9,900	00	$ 34,900	0044,321	64	44,321	64123,244	72	123,244	7240,205	00	40,205	00790,000	00	1,607,842	52	2,397,842	52439,300	00	126,917	20	566,217	20162,800	00	34,650	00	197.450	001,128,500	00	1,528,357	79	2,656,857	79737,800	00	130,162	40	867,962	40$3,283,400	00	$3,645,601	27	$6,929,001	27$ 423,600	00	$ 702,457	30	$1,126,057	3019,600	00	9,900	00	29,500	00170,865	50	170,865	5045,342	32	45,342	32$ 443,200	00	$ 928,565	12	$1,371,765	12
Note.-Where no amount appears under "Aerodrome Development", commitment for such development was made before April 1, 1941.
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation

Air Services
Schedule "C"
Department of National Defence for Air
Commitments for Construction of New Projects in the Province of Saskatchewan Period April 1, 1941, to May 31, 1943
Works and	Total
Aerodrome buildings	during
development	development	period
B.C.A.T.P. Units:
Saskatoon, No. 7 I.T.S
Hagen, Relief Field No. 1 Prince Albert 	to	No.	6	E.F.T.S.,Davidson, No. 23 E.F.T.S. .. Rhein, Relief Field No. 2 Yorkton 	to	No.	11	S.F.T.S.,Totals-B.C.A.T.P. Units-	-Saskatchewan..	R.A.F. Units:	Caron, No. 33 E.F.T.S	
Assiniboia, No. 34 E.F.T.S. .	Lethburn, Relief Field No. 1 Assiniboia 	to	No.	34	E.F.T.S.,Burdick, Relief Field No. 2 Moose Jaw 	to	No.	32	S.F.T.S.,Hamlin, Relief Field No. 1 North Battleford 	to	No.	35	S.F.T.S.,Brada, Relief Field No. 2 North Battleford 	to	No.	35	S.F.T.S.,Estevan, No. 38 S.F.T.S	Outram, Relief Field No. 1	to	No.	38	S.F.T.S.,Chandler, Relief Field No. 2 Estevan 	to	No.	38	S.F.T.S.,St. Aldwyn, Relief Field No. Swift Current 	1 to No.	39	S.F.T.S.,Wymark, Relief Field No. 2 Swift Current 	to	No.	39	S.F.T.S.,Weyburn, No. 41 S.F.T.S. ..	Halbrite, Relief Field No. 1	to	No.	41	S.F.T.S.,Ralph, Relief Field No. 2 Weyburn	to	No.	41	S.F.T.S.,
Totals-R.A.F. Units-Saskatchewan ....
$	9,000 00
468,015 48
[Stage Direction]
436,670	00	$ 807,628	54	$1,244,298	54442,900	00	785,788	00	1,228,688	0018,040	00	9,900	00	27,940	00170,350	00	5,555	00	175,905	00144,256	00	144,256	0040,205	00	40,205	00734,175	00	1,629,548	72	2,363,723	72488,575	00	129,659	23	618,234	23166,910	00	40,205	00	207,115	00159,223	46	159,223	4640,205	00	40,205	00706,750	00	1,338,611	05	2,045,361	05455,710	00	133,224	15	588,934	1566,000	00	40,205	00	106,205	00,686,080	00	$5,304,214	15	$8,990,294	15
Note.-Where no amount appears under "Aerodrome Development", commitment for such development was made before April 1, 1941, excepting in the case of No. 7 I.T.S., Saskatoon, for which no aerodrome is required.
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-Air Services
Schedule "D"
Department of National Defence for Air
Commitments for Construction of New Projects in the Province of Alberta Period April 1, 1941, to May 31, 1943
B.CA.T.P. Units:
Prank Lake, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 5 E.F.T.S.,
High River	
Shepard, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 3 S.F.T.S.,
Calgary	
Inverlake, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 3 S.F.T.S.,
Calgary	
Standoff, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 7 S.F.T.S.,
MacLeod	
Woodhouse, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 15 S.F.T.S.,
Claresholm	
Champion, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 15 S.F.T.S.,
Claresholm	
Vulcan, No. 19 S.F.T.S	
Ensign, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 19 S.F.T.S.,
Vulcan	
Edmonton, No. 3 Manning Depot	
Total-B.C.A.T.P. Units-Alberta	
R.A.F. Units:
De Winton, No. 31 E.F.T.S	
Bowden, No. 32 E.F.T.S	
Netook, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 32 E.F.T.S.,
Bowden	
Innisfail, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 36 S.F.T.S.,
Penhold	
Blackfalds, Relief Field No. 2 to No. 36 S.F.T.S.,
Penhold	
Airdrie, Relief Field No. 1 to No. 37 S.F.T.S.,
Calgary	
Pearce, No. 36 E.F.T.S., converted to No. 3 A.O.S. (B.C.A.T.P.); No. 3 A.O.S. located at Regina having moved to Pearce after July 1, 1942. No. 3 A.O.S., Pearce, being disbanded and No. 2 F.I.S., being formed at Pearce (June 6, 1943)	
Total-R.A.F. Units-Alberta
	Works and	Total
Aerodrome	buildings	duringdevelopment	development	period$ 15,900 00	$ 15,900 00128,656 47	128,656 4740,205 00	40,205 00$ 128,000 00	5,555 00	133,555 00143,886 20	143,886 20138,300 00	40,205 00	178,505 00891,950 00	1,580,269 12	2,472,219 12522,000 00	134,762 67	656,762 67640,804 77	640,804 77$1,680,250 00	$2,730,244 23	$4,410,494 23$ 427,958 42	$ 755,279 25	$1,183,237 67442,600 00	771,909 58	1,214,509 5843,560 00	9,900 00	53.460 00158,018 30	158,018 30220,500 00	40,605 00	261,105 00159,434 73	159,434 731,509,255 33	1,509,255 33$1,134,618 42	$3,404,402 19	$4,539,020 61
Note.-Where no amount appears under "Aerodrome Development", commitment for such development was made before April 1, 1941, excepting in the case of No. 3 Manning Depot, Edmonton, for which no aerodrome is required.
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-Air Services
The hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) inquired about the procedure in settling estates of deceased members of the air force. The answer to this question is long. However, I suggest it should be placed on Hansard, because hon. members will doubtless be asked questions of a similar character.
' These four pages-	.
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, I can see many reasons why this information should go on Hansard, with unanimous consent. But if it does, it should be understood that if, after having perused this information, hon. members wish to ask supplementary questions, they may be permitted to do so.


Charles Gavan Power: I agree to that.


Angus MacInnis: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid we are embarking on a dangerous precedent in putting material of this kind on the record, without first having it read. In the past we have accepted tables, and that sort of thing; but my understanding since I came to this house thirteen years ago has been that matter of this kind was not to be put on the record without its being read. I know that in the United States congress complete speeches may be put in without being read, but that has never been done here. I do not think it would be wise to depart from the practice which has been followed for so long.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The point of order
raised by the hon. member for Vancouver East is well founded. There must be unanimous consent before material can be placed on the record.


Cyrus Macmillan: As I shall not be able to read this in ten minutes I shall leave it for another time. The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) asked if the publication Wings pays for itself. It does not. The monthly revenue more than covers the purchase of materials and the typesetting that is done by a civilian firm. In effect, the only public expense is for salaries of service personnel and for the shipping of the paper to the stations. It is still a new venture and has every right to expect that, as it develops, expenditures will be reduced. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle asked about the cost of publishing Wings. The total cost is $1,487 a month. The revenue for the first three months was $540 a month. The monthly deficit is $947 at the present time. The cost is made up of $346 for materials; $112 for typesetting; $265 for shipping; and $764 for editorial staff; or a total of $1,487.
The hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen) asked if buses are attached to the
Pennfield Ridge station to take personnel to the city. Buses are not attached to this station to take personnel to the city. Saint John is thirty-nine miles from the station, and a civilian bus service is in operation. He asked also if orders have been issued to restrict the use of staff cars. The answer is, yes. The King's Regulations and Orders for the Royal Canadian Air Force, Canadian air publication No. 23, gives specific instructions with regard to restricting the use of staff cars. Orders are issued periodically with regard to this procedure.
The hon. member for Prince Edward-Lennox (Mr. Tustin) inquired about the cost of posters. One hundred and fifty thousand posters, size twenty-five by thirty-eight inches, were produced at a cost of $25,302, or, roughly, seventeen cents each. Twenty thousand posters in French were produced at a cost of $6,000. Fifty thousand posters in connection with recruiting for the women's division were produced at a cost of $6,900, or, roughly, fourteen cents each.
The hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser) asked whether helicopters can land on water. They can be fitted with flotation bags which will permit them to be so landed.
The hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson) asked if the Jacobs engine has been satisfactory. Since the original teething troubles were overcome, the Jacobs engine has given good satisfaction. A recent survey has shown that accidents on account of engine failure in aircraft fitted with Jacobs engines occur at a rate of only one in about twenty-nine thousand hours of flying, a rate which compares favourably with other engines. I think these are all the questions I can answer before eleven o'clock.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Wednesday, June 23, 1943