1943-05-31

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	What was the total number of housing units built under the supervision of the national housing administration as at December 31, 1942?
2.	What was the total value of the said units?
3.	What was the total cost of the administration up to December 31, 1942?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	Loans approved under the National Housing Act, 1938, and the Dominion Housing Act, 1935, to December 31, 1942, were used to finance the construction of 23,606 housing units.
2.	The estimated construction costs of residential dwellings built under the provisions of the National Housing Act, 1938, and the Dominion Housing Act, 1935, to September 30, 1942 (latest available date) were $92,049,322.
3.	The administration costs of the National Housing Act, 1938, and the Dominion Housing Act, 1935, to December 31, 1942, total $555,415.33.


ALUMINUM COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED, AND ALUMINIUM LIMITED-REVIEW OF TAX RETURNS
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Has the treasury board, at any time since January 1, 1938, reviewed the income tax, and/or excess profits tax returns of the Aluminum Company of Canada, Limited, and/or Aluminium Limited, and/or any other companies subsidiary to or associated with either of the foregoing, under the provisions of section 32A of the Income War Tax Act?
2.	If so, on what date or dates?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


PURCHASE OF SYDNEY HARBOUR WATER LOTS
Mr. McGARRY:: 1.	Did the Department of Public Works purchase water lots on'Sydney harbour?
2.	If so, from whom?
3.	What was the price paid for the lots?


Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):: Yes, the Department of Public Works purchased properties on Sydney harbour consisting of land and land covered with water as follows:-
Parcel 1-From the Sydney Foundry & Machine Works, Limited, for the sum of $68,000, by deed dated March 8, 1927.
Parcel 2-From the Sydney Foundry & Machine Works, Limited, for the sum of $75,000, by deed dated April 12, 1939.
Parcel 3-From the estate of J. E. Burchell for the sum of $4,000, by deed dated May 2, 1940.


SALE OF BUTTER FOR OTHER THAN HUMAN CONSUMPTION
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Has any butter that was in storage been turned over or sold to companies or individuals who are engaged in the manufacture of soap products or other products not meant for human consumption, during the past six months?
2.	If so, how much has been sold, to whom, and what prices were secured therefor?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	The wartime prices and trade board has no knowledge of any butter having been disposed of for use in the manufacture of soap products or other products not meant for human consumption.
2.	See answer to question No. 1.


PURCHASE OF CANADIAN WHEAT BY UNITED STATES
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What arrangements were made for the purchase of Canadian wheat by the United States authorities at the April conference in Washington?
2.	What is the quantity and grade of each of the grains involved in the agreement?
3.	Are the purchases of wheat to be made through the Canadian wheat board? If not, why not?
4.	Have permits been issued for the export of grain under this agreement? .
5.	If so, to what persons, and for what amounts ?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	United States authorities through the Commodity Credit corporation desired to purchase Canadian wheat for feed purposes to be consumed in the eastern states. As Canadian rail and lake transportation is fully utilized

Questions as Orders for Returns
in supplying the domestic and overseas market, the quantity of wheat to be purchased by the . U.S. is limited to the lake tonnage which can be supplied by the U.S. The U.S. lake tonnage available for the shipment of wheat is limited by the requirements of the ore trade.
2.	So far the Commodity Credit corporation has purchased 7J million bushels of Canadian wheat. The grades of wheat to be shpped will be No. 3 northern, or higher.
3.	The Commodity Credit corporation decided to purchase this wheat on the open market.
4.	Export permits are not required for wheat grading No. 3 northern, or higher.
5.	See No. 4.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What is the amount of, (a) prairie farm assistance; (b) prairie farm income, and (c) wheat acreage reduction bonus, paid to farmers in each province each year up to and including 1942?
2.	What is the cost of administration of each act, each year, in the different provinces?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1. (a) Prairie Farm Assistance			
Fiscal Year	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta1942-43	S 8,498 13	S 1,203,816 44	$ 1,081,114 841941-42	84,662 96	11,138.107 89	2,457,972 021940-41	593,793 63	5,499,089 44	625,349 931939-40	849,998 26	7,251,661 76	1,351,801 60(b) Prairie Farm	Income	Fiscal Year	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta1942-43	$ 129,105 62	$ 1,099,509 10	$ 1,488,897 001941-42	2,862,426 92	9,214,169 00	4,221.908 391940-41	Nil	Nil	Nil1939-40	Nil	Nil	Nil(c) Wheat Acreage Reduction	Fiscal Year	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta1942-43	$ 4,314,023 66	$13,806,153 38	$ 6,406,185 431941-42	3,835,465 01	16,668,346 12	9,150,417 781940-41	Nil	Nil	Nil1939-40	Nil	Nil	Nil2. (a) Prairie Farm Assistance-Administration	Fiscal Year	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta1942-43	$ 5,760 50	$ 141,444 11	$ 50,723 311941-42	14,522 88	316,765 61	91,105 071940-41	31,208 83	287,814 86	27,741 201939-40	26,973 20	195,464 35	44,158 07(b) Prairie Farm	Income-Administration	Included above in	. Prairie Farm Assistance	Administration	(c) Wheat Acreage Reduction-Administration	Fiscal Year	Manitoba	Saskatchewan	Alberta1942-43	$ 212,383 89	S 701,090 49	$ 352,910 221941-42	176,790 20	521,648 69	283,334 301940-41	Nil	Nil	Nil1939-40	Nil	Nil	Nil



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	What are the names of the directors of Polymer Corporation Limited?

2.	Have any individuals resigned as directors of the above company since its incorporation? If so, what are their names?
3.	In the case of each of those named in answer to questions one and two, with what firms or corporations are they now employed, with what firms or corporations have they been employed at any time since January 1, 1942, of

Questions as Orders jor Returns
what firms or corporations are they now directors, and of what firms or corporations have they been directors at any time since January 1, 1942?
4.	What are the names of the officers and directors of Citadel Merchandising Company Limited, of Montreal?


FEED WHEAT AND COARSE GRAINS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What is the quantity of coarse grains held at present by the Canadian wheat board?
2.	What quantity of feed wheat has been shipped to the farmers of eastern Canada through the Canadian wheat board from September 1, 1942, to April 30, 1943?
3.	What was the total expenditure by the government in assisting this transfer of grains?
4.	How does the government assist in making feed wheat and coarse grains available to farmers of eastern Canada?
5.	What price is paid by the Ontario farmer for feed wheat, 2 C.W. oats, 2 C.W. barley, at London, Ontario?


WINNIPEG ELECTRIC COMPANY
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	Was the Winnipeg Electric Company, at any time between September 1, 1941, and April 30, 1942, designated as a depressed industry? If so, by what department of the government, or branch or board thereof, and on what date?
2.	What was the decision of the Excess Profits Tax Act board of referees relating to the standard profits claim of the Winnipeg Electric Company, referred to in a copy of a letter dated April 13, 1942, included in sessional paper No. 348, of May 24, 1943?
3.	Has the above decision been used by the Winnipeg Electric Company in any representations to the Manitoba regional war labour board relating to the wage rates of any of the employees of said company?


Mr. GIBSON:: I ask that this question be passed as an order for return, subject to the usual reservation as to information obtained under the provisions of the Income War Tax Act and the Excess Profits Tax Act.


SUPPLEMENTARY LIVING ALLOWANCES
Mr. KNOWLES:: 1.	On what projects, or at what plants, have supplementary living allowances been paid by the government, as authorized by order in council P.C. 246, of January 19, 1943, section 212, subsection (3)?
2.	To how many individuals have payments been made as above?
. 3. What is the total amount paid out as above?
4.	On what projects, or at what plants, have supplementary allowances been paid, (a) by the government; (b) by employers, as authorized by order in council P.C. 246, of January 19, 1943, section 212, subsection (4) ?
5.	To how many individuals have payments been made as above, (a) by the government;
(b)	by employers?

6.	What is the total amount paid out as above, (a) by the government; (b) by employers ?


UNEMPLOYMENT-PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
Mr. ROY:: 1.	How many unemployed were there in the province of Quebec during each year from 1931 to 1942, both inclusive?
2.	What number of unemployed were given work in each of the above-mentioned years?
3.	What number received assistance during each of the above-mentioned years?


Mr. MITCHELL:: We have no knowledge as to the number of persons receiving relief because relief is under provincial jurisdiction. I do not know where we might get these figures because the federal government does not deal with relief.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Are there no records at all?


Humphrey Mitchell: No. With that provision, it may be passed as an order for return.


NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL-ENLISTMENTS IN MILITARY DISTRICTS 3 AND 4
Mr. DUBOIS:: 1.	How many officials and employees of the national research council, working in territories known as military districts Nos. 3 and 4, have voluntarily enlisted during the twelve months ending May 1, 1943?
2.	Have these voluntary enlistments been credited to the said military districts? If so, how many to each district?


DEHYDRATION PLANTS
Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: 1.	Have any companies applied for financial assistance to convert their plants, or to establish dehydration plants, for potatoes and other vegetables ?
2.	If so, what are the names of such companies?
3.	Which, if any, received assistance, and to what amount in each case?
4.	What companies applied for contracts, and on what dates?
5.	To what companies were contracts awarded, on what date, and to what amount in each case?


LUNENRURG, N.S., PORT DOCTORS-SICK MARINERS FUND .
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	Who were the port doctors at Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, during the years 1926, 1929, 1931, 1934, 1936, and 1942?
2.	What salaries, fees or other allowances, were paid to them during each of such years?
3.	On whose recommendation, and for what reasons, were appointees relieved of their duties and new appointments made?

Questions as Orders for Returns
4.	Did drug stores supply port doctors and sick mariners with requisite drugs and other medical supplies during these years?
5.	Has this policy been discontinued? If so, why?
6.	What sums were paid into the sick mariners' fund through the customs office, Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, in the years 1926, 1929, 1931, 1934, 1936, and 1942?
7.	What was the number of vessels, their tonnage, and the numbers of members of crews, during each of such years?
8.	Are men in the naval service advised to secure medical treatment from the port doctor at Lunenburg, Nova Scotia? If so, does such port doctor receive special remuneration in addition to salary on scale fixed by government?
9.	Why are other resident doctors not permitted to share in such practice?


BRUCE COAL COMPANY
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Has the Bruce Coal Company, of Ottawa, been prosecuted?
2.	If so, for what reasons?
3.	Has the trial been postponed?
4.	If so, how many times?
5.	Does the government intend to proceed effectively against this company?



GRANTS TO PROVINCE OP QUEBEC

Mr. LACROIX (Beauce):: What sums were contributed by the federal government to the government of the province of Quebec, from August 26, 1936, to November 8, 1939, in the form of statutory grants, assistance to unemployed, contributions to old age pensions and to the blind, and in any other manner?



COST OF LIVING BONUS-VETERANS' ASSISTANCE

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many men of His Majesty's forces have been granted the qualified high cost-of-living bonus under the recent new regulations regarding veterans' assistance, (a) overseas or adjoining territory to Canada; (b) those serving in Canada?
2.	To how- many men- of the forces does this new regulation apply?
3.	When did those overseas start to receive this increase over $1.30 per day?
4.	Is it given to all the men, or just those whom their officers choose, or under what regulation?
5.	How many men have been refused this increase, by "whom, and for what reason?



HOUSING-MONTREAL

Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	What action is being taken by the government to relieve the serious housing situation which exists in many of the larger cities throughout the dominion, particularly Montreal?
2.	What steps are being taken to prevent the outbreak of any -epidemic which might arise as a result of bad housing conditions?



CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY

[Stage Direction]
7NQUIRY AS TO ATTEMPTED WRECK OF MONTREAL-VANCOUVER TRAIN
On. the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the government. I am not sure whether it should be directed to the acting leader, to the Minister of Transport or to the Minister of Justice, but I have sent notice to them all just in case the question may come within their purview.
A Canadian Press dispatch from Fort William under date of yesterday says:
A railway sectionman was shot and wounded in what was believed last night to have been an attempt of saboteurs to wreck the Canadian Pacific Railway's crack Montreal-Vancouver flier. The section worker was fired upon from ambush when he tried to replace spikes that had been removed from the track.
In view of the widespread public interest which has been aroused by this hinted act of sabotage I ask the government to give a full statement to the house in connection with this report, and I should like also to inquire, what steps the government is taking immediately to investigate the incident.
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, when I received notice of this question from the hon. leader of the opposition I mentioned it to the acting leader of the government (Mr. Crerar) and to the Minister of Transport and ascertained from them that what was the case with respect to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was also the case with them. No official report has yet been received concerning this incident. All the information we have at police headquarters here is that the Manitoba division of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is cooperating with the provincial authorities and with the constables of the Canadian Pacific company in investigating the incident.



REDISTRIBUTION


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day-:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Secretary of State. Could he inform the house when the government's proposals for redistribution will be made, and whether consideration has been given to the suggestion that a judicial committee rather than a parlia-' mentary committee might undertake the task?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Acting Leader of the Government):: Mr. Speaker, consideration is being given to the manner in which redistribution will be brought before the house.

Parliamentary Assistants



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. ROY (Gaspe):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Labour a question on a very important and urgent matter. I have received many complaints that the sons and employees of farmers are being called up at this time right in the midst of the sowing season. Public opinion seems to be alarmed over this. I hold in my hand the Financial Post of May 29, which complains of this state of things and asks if postponements could not be granted to the sons and employees of farmers until the sowing season is over.


Humphrey Mitchell: If my hon. friend will forward to me the complaints he has received I shall be glad to look into them. I would say that .the newspaper to which he has just referred cannot, I think, be considered an authority on call-ups under the selective service programme.



PARLIAMENTARY ASSISTANTS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: Mr. Speaker, I was rather hoping that to-day the Minister of Justice might have an answer to the question which I have propounded to him on one or two occasions as to the swearing in of the parliamentary assistants. I hope he is now in a position to enlighten the house.
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): I have had this question examined by the law officers of the department and was informed by them that they found no provisions, statutory or otherwise, which require that the parliamentary' assistants to the ministers take any additional oath beyond the oath of allegiance that they naturally took before they became members of the house. There is a provision in the statutes under which other persons than those named caa be required by the governor in council to take, in addition to the oath of allegiance, an oath of secrecy, and the question whether or not that would be appropriate is still under consideration.


Gordon Graydon: Have the parliamentary assistants access to the secrets of cabinet council, and are cabinet secrets discussed with them? If they are, it seems to me that an oath of secrecy should be taken. If they have

not that access, the position of parliamentary assistant in relation to the cabinet generally should be clarified.


Mr.   S@: I can assure the hon. member that' up to the present time cabinet secrets have not been discussed with the parliamentary assistants. The question whether or not they should take the oath of secrecy so that it might be unobjectionable to discuss with them certain matters which otherwise would be kept from them is still under consideration.


Mr. MacNICOL:: That is fortunate, anyway.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, May 28, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to his majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Bradette in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN:: We are on item 4, dealing with the construction, purchase, repairs and operating expenses of properties.


Mr. GREEN:: Mr. Chairman, this item is for 8109,401,172. That is an increase of about $35,000,000 over the estimated expenditure for 1942-43. In the break-dow-n that was given on March 3 of this year, which will be found at page 920 of Hansard, it is shown that $82,780,482 of this amount is for capital expenditure. The balance is for repairs, operating expenses and rentals. Will the minister tell us what provision is made for checking the plans of the various new army buildings before they are built? For example, is there any authority who decides what type the construction shall be, having in mind the cost? Is there anyone who decides how large the building shall be? Just what check is there on this construction? I mention these points because to those who see these buildings going up many of them appear to be of such construction and material that they would last for fifty or a hundred years, and accordingly must cost much more than a temporary building would. Yet we all know that they will be of no use at all after the war. In many cases there, has been tremendous waste. Leading men in the construction business have come to me and said, "It is all money in our pockets to put up these huge permanent or semi-permanent buildings, but it is a terrific waste of public money, and we think some care should be

War Appropriation-Army
taken to see that the buildings are not of such an expensive type." The very fact that this expensive type of building is being put up annoys our. people and makes it that much harder to get in taxes and to sell victory bonds. I should like to know just what system the Department of National Defence has of checking the type as well as the cost of the various buildings that are being put up for military purposes.


Mr. RALSTON:: The system is that the particular service which considers that the building or other structure is required makes a requisition, which comes through the particular district concerned, to the national defence department. I may as well deal with the question of construction, vis-a-vis existing buildings, because it seems to me that that comes into it.
The question always is whether or not the service can do with something which exists at the present time, either by, if it is for accommodating personnel, putting more personnel in that particular building, by making such readjustments that less floor space will be occupied per head; or readapting the building; or making some addition to the present building; or acquiring some building already constructed and adapting it in order to save labour and material.
In the army we have adopted a practice of requiring from the district officer commanding what we call a certificate of necessity with regard to new construction. We ask him to certify that he has carefully reviewed the necessity for so-and-so-whatever it may be, and he says:
With full knowledge of my responsibility I give assurance
(a)	that full consideration has been given to the necessity of conserving materials and labour involved in further construction;
(b)	that the provision of accommodation to the extent and for the purposes proposed is necessary in the interests of the service;
(c)	that no rearrangement of personnel is feasible to provide the required space in existing accommodation;
(d)	that there are available no existing buildings held by the government which could practicably be altered or extended to provide the required accommodation;
(e)	that the necessary additional accommodation cannot be secured by acquiring or leasing on any reasonable terms existing civilian buildings;
(f)	that there is no other feasible provision which can be made as economically for the services required.
After that certificate is signed and forwarded to headquarters, the matter has to be dealt with; that is, the deputy minister and the engineer services generally examine into the matter, and if they consider there are no
facts which would justify them in questioning that certificate, the question of the best type of building then becomes the responsibility of the engineers of the quartermaster-general's oranch. The deputy quartermaster-general [engineering) is himself an engineer and was a contractor in civil life, and he is, I think, well acquainted with the necessities regarding types and various kinds of construction.
I think the general plan followed in connection with the construction of these temporary or semi-permanent buildings is that they should have at least five years' life; that is to say, the services and the general equipment must be such as will give service for five years. In that connection there has been experimentation, of course. If my hon. friend is thinking of buildings in Ottawa, some buildings were started quite early; I believe the first buildings which were erected were put up by the Department of Munitions and Supply to house their personnel. I should think that that general type of building has been followed pretty consistently. There have been changes from time to time, but the instructions are and every effort is made to build a building at the lowest possible cost consistent with the purpose for which it is required. That is to say, in weather such as we have had you cannot house personnel, either male or female, in buildings which are not properly heated, which are not properly ventilated, which have not a reasonable amount of light and which are not reasonably convenient; also, such buildings should be reasonably soundproof, so that there will not be too much noise from one office to the other.
The engineers of all three of the armed services have been at work on these matters endeavouring as far as possible to evolve the best possible type for the least money; that is, so far as what might be regarded as temporary buildings in Ottawa are concerned. I know, as my hon. friend knows, that, for instance, Camp Hill hospital at Halifax was erected as a temporary building in the last war and that it is still being used. The same state of affairs exists with regard to St. Anne's in Montreal. You cannot put up a building which is so temporary that it will fall down just at the end of five years and yet have been sufficiently useful for the purpose for which it was intended. There is therefore a degree of permanency in connection with all these buildings.
With regard to camps, quite early we evolved a plan of hut construction. That has been varied somewhat as time went on and as experience gave us opportunities to
War Appropriation-Army

improve; and by "improve" I do not necessarily mean increased cost, but enhanced utility and convenience for the same amount of money. I think I can say that we have in the army a standard type of hut, of which I am sure my hon. friend knows, both in the way of messing huts, which are built in the form of an H with the kitchen in the bar of the H, and in the form of sleeping huts, which are also in the form of an H, with wash-rooms and ablution rooms and toilets in the bar of the H. I believe these have been reasonably satisfactory and that the cost has been as low as it could be, having regard to the necessity of decent construction and of buildings which will house men properly.
The answer to my hon. friend is that the responsibility is on the engineers of the department, who are in constant consultation with others, including the engineers of the Department of Munitions and Supply, and the experience gained has been helpful in producing as time went by, an improved type of hut and of building at what is regarded as a moderate price, having regard to the service which has to have the accommodation.


Howard Charles Green: Well, is there no check by any other department? Apparently the defence department decides what buildings it needs and then builds them, and there is nobody to check the decisions. It does seem that there should be some check, perhaps by the Department of Munitions and Supply, perhaps by housing experts under the Department of Finance, to see that these buildings are not too expensive. I believe the idea is prevalent across Canada that a great deal of money is being wasted on these buildings. I would ask the minister to tell us whether 'it would not be possible to set up some system of checking both the types of, and the expenditures on, these different army buildings.


James Layton Ralston: The D.Q.M.G. advises me that we have had independent engineers from time to time in consultation with regard to plans and specifications. There has not been any other department which checks on the engineers of the Department of National Defence (Army): that is part of our job, and it is in the deputy minister's purview to see that the job is done as cheaply as possible. I do not think that the Department of Munitions and Supply are in a position or would want to be in a position to check the matter of specifications and 	.
that sort of thing for all the different kinds of accommodation which are needed. The Department of Munitions and Supply is a procuring agency for accommodation just as it is a procuring agency for armaments or equipment or anything else. The kind of specifications, the degree of need, et cetera, have to be checked by the department concerned, and the matter comes in due course to the government in the form of an order in council when the contract is let by the Department of Munitions and Supply.


Howard Charles Green: 
James Layton Ralston: 
Howard Charles Green: How- much of this capital
expenditure is to be spent overseas?


James Layton Ralston: I can give it privately to the hon. member; I should prefer to do that.


Howard Charles Green: Is it a large proportion?


James Layton Ralston: Some millions.


Howard Charles Green: The navy is also asking
for over S36.500.000 for capital expenditure for construction and the air force is asking for practically S93.500.000 for the same thing. It is a tremendous amount.


James Layton Ralston: The hon. member referred tu the tremendous amount of lumber and material required-


Howard Charles Green: And labour.


James Layton Ralston: -and labour. No one appreciates that more than we do in the services. There is an inter-service priority committee which meets and goes over the respective projects and endeavours to place them in some order of priority which will enable the most urgent to be done first, dealing with the Department of Munitions and Supply on that basis. There have been constant meetings between the deputy ministers and the controllers of lumber and of other materials to ensure that first things come first. We are under no illusion as to the scarcity of materials or the necessity for conserving them.


Mr. BENCE:: I am concerned about the
matter to which the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) has referred. In the first place, the minister has stated that the particular department concerned deals with these various matters. For example, if a building is required for the purposes of the Department of National Defence, only that department concerns itself with acquiring that building. At least, so I understood him. I should like to know how the wffiole situation is canvassed in view of the existing possibilities of finding some substitute instead of building, in order to save the necessary materials that are being used. For instance, is there anyone in the department who will go through Ottawa and canvass the whole situation and determine whether or not a certain building on a particular street could be used, thus avoiding the necessity of erecting a new temporary building? Again, is the department prepared to put up with a certain amount of inconvenience instead of erecting a new building, in order that necessary materials may be saved, together with the labour that will be required?
I should like to know what the policy of the department generally is with respect to purchasing and renting. In some of the returns made to the house I find for example that in the city of Ottawa a' substantial amount of property has been purchased by the Department of National Defence. I am confining my remarks to the army; I am not here dealing with the navy or the air force. Here are some of the buildings acquired: Ottawa Ladies' College, purchased for $225.000; Woods and Canadian buildings, purchased for $680,000; Aylmer apartments, purchased for $321,000; Bate building and Truro apartments, $233,000. I should like to know what the policy of the department is with regard to such purchases. Did it determine first of all whether there was any
War Appropriation-Army

possibility of renting these buildings? Did it consider whether it would be better to rent than to purchase, and did it consider the question whether such buildings could be used after the war? In other words, what has the departfnent in mind with respect to these buildings? In Saskatchewan, according to a return given to the house, no buildings have been purchased; whereas, in several of the other provinces buildings have been purchased, and in some a substantial number.


James Layton Ralston: In what province have no buildings been purchased?


Alfred Henry Bence: Saskatchewan. I have in mind the fact that in Regina a building known as the Westman chambers is being rented for $20,000 a year. The assessed value of the land and buildings is $80,390. What did the department have in mind in renting rather than purchasing that building? Then, what did it have in mind when it purchased various buildings in Ottawa, rather than trying to negotiate rental payments for their occupancy?


James Layton Ralston: Generally speaking the plan is, if at all possible, to get the use of the building rather than to invest in it. I repeat that that is the general pirnciple. But that principle is cut into by reason of a number of considerations. One is that if we rent a building it generally has to be renovated or adapted for office use. In such circumstances we have to give an undertaking that at the end of the rental term it will be restored to its previous condition. The result is that we have found renting so costly that manifestly it would be uneconomical to rent rather than to buy. I am referring to a building, of course, which would have a post-war use. Time and again we have been tempted to use our power of expropriation of a limited interest, that is to say two, three or four years, instead of taking over entirely. And time and again our real estate advisers have reported that it would bo uneconomical and bad business for us to do so, having regard to the obligations we have to undertake, (a) to make capital expenditures on the building so that it may be suitable for our use, and (b) that at the end of the time we would remake or remodel the building, so as to put it back in the shape in which it was when we took it over. I can assure my hon. friend that the keeping down of capital expenditures has been one of the cardinal principles we have tried to adopt wherever practicable. The difficulty has been that no one can guess the length of the war.

The hon. member referred to the purchase of the Ottawa Ladies' College for the use of the Canadian Women's Army Corps. In that connection every consideration was gone into. I do not think the valuation of any building could have been gone into more thoroughly than was this one by our real estate officers. We were advised that the Ottawa Ladies' College refused to lease. They would sell, or nothing. This meant that we would have had to expropriate, on a limited interest, carrying it for three or four years, and then handing it back, with the liability for remodelling. As my hon. friend probably knows, it was considered desirable property as a permanent building. It was believed much good use could be made of it after the war, and the department considered the advice of our real estate advisers was sound. The result is that the purchase was made.


Alfred Henry Bence: Is it the thought of the department that a building like that will be resold after the war?


James Layton Ralston: All I can say on the point is that that just depends on the need for buildings.


Mr. McCANN:: Who are the appraisers or valuators in Ottawa?
Mr., RALSTON:	Our chief real estate
adviser is Colonel Goodwin Gibson of Toronto, who has been in the department from the beginning. He has with him a number of gentlemen, all of whom ha-ve been in the real estate business. Then, he has the benefit of the advice of real estate advisers in Ottawa. I cannot remember offhand the name of the appraiser who worked with Colonel Gibson in the appraisal of the Ottawa Ladies' College. However I can give those names later, and I can also give the names of those who appraised the Woods and Canadian buildings and the Aylmer apartments.
The Woods and Canadian buildings are one illustration of the folly of leasing permanent buildings. I do not know how long we have had the Woods building, but I know I was there in 1926 when on an earlier occasion I was Minister of 'National Defence. The Canadian building was there also at. that time. I am sure that in rentals paid we have paid completely for the Woods building, when we consider the time it has been occupied. It was decided we should purchase these buildings and put an end to these annual obligations. Then, we wanted to obtain the benefit of 12,000 square feet which could be obtained by joining the two buildings with a per-

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manent structure. That has been done, the new portion having just been completed. The whole has been made into one building.
If I remember correctly the Aylmer apartments were purchased at the time the Department of National Defence for Naval Services was formed. It is just opposite the Woods building. It was considered desirable to purchase the building for purposes of national defence-any one of the departments-as was the case with the Bate building. That was the income tax building; it stands directly alongside. This means that the crown owns all the property on both sides of Slater street from Elgin street to the park.


Mr. GLADSTONE:: Are those buildings
included in the Ottawa beautification scheme?


James Layton Ralston: I do not know whether
my hon. friend is being sarcastic when he asks that question.


Robert William Gladstone: Not at all.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend is asking
whether these buildings would be included in the scheme connected with the widening of the street?


Robert William Gladstone: There has been some
talk about their demolition.


James Layton Ralston: There is no such plan
yet. I must say that I do not see any possibility of the demolition of buildings of that kind for a great many years after the war. I believe we have to set our faces against that sort of thing for a while. We will have to do without some beautification measures for a little while. Possibly that would have taken place if the war had not come along, necessitating other expenditures.
The hon. member asked if there was anyone in Ottawa or in the .department who canvassed the situation in the city as to the availability of accommodation.


Alfred Henry Bence: The necessity for saving
materials.


James Layton Ralston: With all due respect to
real estate men in Ottawa, I think the hon. member would find in Colonel Gibson's office as complete a catalogue of every bit of space, prospective, potential or present, as could be found anywhere. Colonel Gibson and his associates have toured this city from end to end, time and time. again, almost at the point of the bayonet, in the hands of officers who needed space and were unable to get it. Not long ago we had a situation where personnel, instead of having something like 75 or
80 feet of space, which is considered the average amount required, had only 45 or 50.1 know Colonel Gibson has looked in every direction to find space which could be used without having to construct new buildings. I am sure no one was more regretful than we were in the Department of National Defence when we had to accede to the suggestions from the navy and the air to allow buildings to be erected, and when later we had to use the remainder of the space for a building for the Department of National Defence (Army). But it was simply impossible to find accommodation of the kind required by the services.
I can say that the building on Cartier square, which is being erected by the army, will be practically filled by the quartermaster-1 general, the master-general of the ordnance and part of the treasury. The tremendous strain under which these departments have been working will be realized when I say that the master-general of the ordnance has been accommodated in eighteen or nineteen different buildings in Ottawa. I believe that number is correct. Those buildings will be vacated by M.G.O. staffs when the move is made into the new one. But it was simply impossible to carry on properly with a staff scattered throughout the city. As a matter of fact, if I may make a personal reference, I would say that one of my own offices was used by draftsmen of the engineers' branch of the quartermaster-general. We had special lights installed in order that they might prepare the plans for these different buildings. The fact is that we have had a very difficult time, from the point of view of space.


Alfred Henry Bence: What possibility is there of some of this work being done in other centres, away from Ottawa? Would it be feasible to have some branches in other cities, where more accommodation is available, rather than have them all in Ottawa? Then, with respect to sales: Were sales effected directed between the Department of National Defence and the owner, without the intervention of a real estate agent?


James Layton Ralston: Absolutely.


Alfred Henry Bence: I should like an answer to the other question.


James Layton Ralston: That is really a matter for my colleague the Minister of Public Works, rather than for me.


Alfred Henry Bence: It is a matter of policy with respect to the Department of National Defence, to a certain extent.


James Layton Ralston: I may say to my hon. friend that it is always a case of being willing to sacrifice your wife's relations. Each depart-
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ment is perfectly willing to have someone else make the move; each is absolutely convinced of the soundness of the principle that some other department . ought to move out of Ottawa, but it is difficult to persuade a particular department that this is possible in its particular case.


Alfred Henry Bence: They all want to be here.


James Layton Ralston: Yes. I am not going to put up any defence for the Department of National Defence, but we think it is absolutely necessary that the department be here. We moved the records office out to the experimental farm, and we have under construction an ordnance building out at Plouffe park; those are both some distance away. With these exceptions, however, there has been a gradual centralization, and that will be more or less accomplished when the new army building on Cartier square is completed. I can say seriously and sincerely that I am entirely in agreement with my hon. friend that some way ought to be found whereby congestion in a centre like Ottawa could be avoided. There are places which suggest that they might accommodate people, but always you find physical difficulties brought about by the fact that we are in a period of stress and strain and rush, and we have problems of transport and accommodation. If you move a department you have to move the personnel; if you move the personnel you have to put up buildings for them w'herever they may be. I do not think it can be said that Toronto has very much space; I do not think Montreal has very much space. Therefore any move would have to be to a smaller place, and generally speaking in these smaller places you have to provide accommodation for personnel as well as for the particular activity carried on.


Mr. PERLEY:: Following the suggestion by the hon. member for Saskatoon City and the statement made by the minister, there is, as the minister said, one province in which there has been very little construction carried on; that, is the province of Saskatchewan. Has a proper survey been made to see whether it would be better to construct one or two new [DOT] buildings in the city of Regina instead of renting several buildings and space in several others? In this item, as I understand it, there is an amount of $46,620,000 for rentals alone. Can the minister give us a break-fiown of that amount, to show just how much of it will go to Saskatchewan? The return which was referred to by the hon. member for Saskatoon City shows that in the city of Regina alone many buildings and parts of buildings have been rented; I think the total is something like sixteen. Perhaps the minister would refer
I Mr. Ralston.]
more particularly to the terms under which his department has taken over the Regina college, the Regina normal school and the Regina Trading building.


James Layton Ralston: Is that not under the air force?
Mr. PERLEY":	It is given here under
national defence.


James Layton Ralston: Is that under the army?


Ernest Edward Perley: Yes, under the army; I have checked off the ones coming under national defence.


James Layton Ralston: I think my hon. friend will find that the normal school comes under the air force.


Alfred Henry Bence: They are both under the air force.


James Layton Ralston: This was a joint return, apparently, covering all three services.


Ernest Edward Perley: The hon. member for
Saskatoon mentioned that $20,000 a year was paid in rental for the Westman chambers, and I notice this return also sets out the McCallum Hill building. I have checked the rentals paid per square foot, and I find a very wide range, from as low as 15 cents to as high as 35 and 40 cents. Most of these buildings are in the centre of the city. How is the amount of rental arrived at and what investigation is made to be sure the standard is fair? I should like to know also who recommended that these particular buildings be rented by the department, and finally I should like the minister to tell me how much of this $46,000,000 will go to Saskatchewan?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend is wrong about the $46,000,000; that refers to operating expenses of property; fuel; light; operating expenses of property overseas; repairs to property; engineer stores and equipment, and so on.


Ernest Edward Perley: And rentals.


James Layton Ralston: Quite so. The total amount there is something like $17,000,000. My hon. friend wants a statement or break-down showing what rent is paid by the army in Saskatchewan, or just in Regina?


Ernest Edward Perley: In Saskatchewan, with particular reference to Regina.


James Layton Ralston: That will be given. I
think there is some confusion about some of these buildings; remember, I cannot carry all these matters in my head, nor can the deputy quartermaster-general remember them all. I

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doubt whether the Regina Trading and McCallum Hill buildings are rented by the army.


Alfred Henry Bence: Yes, there is a recruiting centre in the new McCallum Hill building, at an annual rental of $6,800.


James Layton Ralston: Would the hon. member give me the number of the return to which he is referring?


Ernest Edward Perley: It was brought down on
March 15, I believe; I just copied the main part of it.


Alfred Henry Bence: I am sorry I have not the number. It was passed as an order for return on March 15 and tabled on May 13.


James Layton Ralston: I have these notes with regard to Regina. My hon. friend had an idea that not much construction had been carried on there. There was some construction. though perhaps not much when compared with the construction in Ottawa or Halifax; it amounted to a little over $200,000. There was additional accommodation for the Canadian Women's Army Corps, which I think I saw when I was there; there was the amalgamation of the two depots, No. 12 and No. 12A; I think that is out near the exhibition buildings, if I am not mistaken. There were repairs to the Keist building for the use of stores; the construction of a recreation room, and provision of a parade ground. Those are all in Regina properly. Then at Dundurn, as my hon. friend knows, there was accommodation for C.W.A.C. personnel 'and there were expenditures on the water supply. My hon. friend knows also that a complete training centre was established at Maple Creek, at an expenditure of something like $500,000. In Saskatoon there was an officers' mess and repairs and renovation to the stadium, totalling a little over $30,000. At Prince Albert there was an expenditure of $340,000 at the basic training centre.


Mr. ADAMSON:: What were the expenditures during the last fiscal year at Camp Borden?	,


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: While the minister . is getting that information perhaps I could ask something with reference to Saskatchewan. First, I should like to refer to the conditions of the barracks at Saskatoon. In the early stages of the war it was necessary to put men in any quarters that were available, but since that time many fine huts have been built and other buildings have been taken over and fixed up. With that
in mind, I was shocked during the Easter recess when I visited the exhibition grounds in Saskatoon and saw the conditions under which these men had to live. They have built a new officers' mess which is a lovely building, but the quarters for the men underneath the grandstand are just about as undesirable as I could imagine. The quarters were not filled, but even as it was they were badly crowded. I understand that all the beds have been occupied and probably will be again, and if that should happen there certainly would not be sufficient cubic feet of air per man. I checked the number of wash basins and showers and the toilet facilities with the idea of writing the minister when I came back. I have been too busy to do that, but I can give him the figures. There are certainly not adequate washing and toilet facilities for the number of men quartered there. If I remember, there were about sixty-four wash basins and about eleven or twelve showers, but I am speaking only from memory; the figures are upstairs. But the facilities were not adequate to take care of the number of men quartered there then, and most certainly they would not be adequate if all the beds were occupied.
The men pointed out to me that they had no facilities for washing their clothes and the result was that many of them had to send out their laundry. This was quite a heavy item of expense especially for the married men who had assigned part of their pay. Laundry facilities should be provided so that these men could wash their clothes. A pipeline running along one side of the stadium had been covered with manure to protect it from freezing. I do not know whether it is to remain covered, but even though the day on which I was there was not very warm, I could hardly stay in one end of the sleeping quarters because of the stench. In really warm weather that end of the barracks would be positively uninhabitable. After three years of war I was surprised to see men in quarters like that, especially when there are so many fine quarters in other places.
I should also like to ask the minister about the fire which took place in the barracks at Regina. The newspapers report about a quarter of a' million dollars' worth of damage. I should like to know if there has been any investigation into this fire. There have been rumours of sabotage, but those rumours always start. Has there been any investigation as to the cause of the fire and whether there was adequate fire protection and whether there were adequate fire fighting facilities? Are proper precautions

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being taken there and elsewhere to protect army quarters against a recurrence of this sort of thing?


James Layton Ralston: In connection with the conditions at Saskatoon I may say that I have not had a report of the kind my hon. friend refers to. It might not come to me, but the inspector-general is rigorous in these matters. The depot at Saskatoon is to be amalgamated with Regina and the conditions that prevail there will not have to be borne very long. I am not suggesting that they should be put up with at all, and perhaps some temporary arrangements should be made to eliminate the conditions of which my hon. friend speaks. Perhaps I am more impressed by what he says about the stench and general atmosphere than I am with regard to the matter of air space, because I do not think the quarters will be filled up. The Regina depot is being built for the purpose of amalgamating the two. I am obliged to my hon. friend for bringing this to my attention and if Ihere is any possibility of these men being there any length of time I shall see to it that temporary remedies are applied at once.
All I have seen with regard to the fire at Regina is the telegraphic report which is required to be sent in and which answers certain specific questions at once. The two" points with which I am most concerned is the matter of the adequacy of fire protection and fire fighting equipment, and the cause of the fire, whether or not it was sabotage. There was no evidence of any kind as to the cause of the fire, but the investigation was proceeding when this wire came in. With regard to the adequacy of the fire equipment, I was concerned about the fact that the answer made was that the equipment was not adequate for this fire. That raised the question whether the equipment was the standard equipment. I personally put questions on the memorandum. First, I asked: Was this equipment adequate, having regard to the standards we have set up for fire equipment in these different places? If it was inadequate for this fire, does this indicate that the standard is insufficient? The memo came to me on Friday and I made inquiries about it at once. It is just answered briefly in that respect and there is no indication as to what the town fire equipment was as compared with the military fire equipment. I hope to have further information on that point.


Alfred Henry Bence: The minister has said that the conditions referred to by the hon. member for Weyburn will not have to be put up with very long because these men are to be moved. 
The complaint we have in Saskatoon is that the solution to every problem is to take away men or equipment from the city. We have one of the finest cities in western Canada with ample facilities of all kinds. For years we have been trying to induce the administration to construct proper armouries in Saskatoon. I think the minister from his own experience of that city will realize that it is a fine place for such a building. Our strongest complaint is that the centres which are closer to national defence headquarters always seem to be able to put on sufficient pressure to have necessary buildings erected, but the answer given to a place like Saskatoon, which is 1,500 to 2.000 miles from Ottawa, is that (here is no material or labour; yet in other parts of the country there seem to be ample. On a number of occasions I have referred to the number of temporary buildings which have been erected in Ottawa, which number is increasing every year. These buildings required material and labour and yet there never seems to be any available to construct a proper armouries in our city. We are right in the centre of the province and are one of the largest recruiting centres in the province. I should like to know why it is that only $30,000, representing material and labour, can be found for that city whereas large sums are found for other centres in the country.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend puts it on a very narrow basis when he asks that question. We are not finding money for cities, as my hon. friend knows.


Alfred Henry Bence: You are finding it for
accommodation, and .the accommodation there is bad.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend asks why can we find only $30,000 for Saskatoon.


Alfred Henry Bence: Not for Saskatoon, but for accommodation in Saskatoon.


James Layton Ralston: Nothing is too good for Saskatoon, of course, in my hon. friend's mind or in my mind either, so far as that goes. Saskatoon is the junction point and the service point for Dundurn camp. That is where all the men go. There are not very many military establishments there, I know, and nowhere has a military establishment been supported more enthusiastically than by citizens of Saskatoon. But we do not make allotments for the different cities. There are a good many cities and towns, some of them much nearer home than Saskatoon, which feel they have been overlooked. I can only say to my hon. friend that I had his representations and representations from gentlemen

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who came down here from the board of trade or chamber of commerce-I have forgotten which-particularly about Dundurn, and I tried to take a personal interest in the matter.
I am sorry that the situation was that the quarters which existed in Saskatoon were such as to make it desirable not to build in two places but to combine the depots just as depots for other provinces are combined. I think that was proper economy and proper efficiency. I do not think there is any other province which has two depots. I fully realize the justice, shall I say, which would be done by recognizing Saskatoon in every way possible and I tell my hon. friend that I certainly will keep it in mind, as I have promised to do before. Representations were made with regard to building materials .there, but we were not able to use them as yet. I spoke to the deputy quartermaster general about that to-day. It has not been economically possible to use that material. But the wheel turns sometimes. I need not say to my hon. friend that there is no disposition to do anything but recognize Saskatoon in every possible way, and the fact that only $30,000 was spent there is no indication of what the department thinks of the contribution Saskatoon has made. There are many other cities and towns in Saskatchewan and elsewhere which would be equally glad to have Saskatoon's proximity to a camp like Dundurn and the opportunity to serve the boys of that camp and have the benefit of whatever might come from the city's proximity to the camp.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the minister given consideration to the question whether it is advisable to concentrate these military establishments in one city? It often means moving large bodies of men into cities that are already highly congested, and it means taking equipment out of other places which have already been set up. For instance, if the present military establishment is moved out of Saskatoon to be merged with the Regina set-up, there is already standing the officers' mess I have already mentioned, put up at an expenditure of $25,000 or $30,000, 'which will no longer be used. It is just newly built, and workshops and equipment have been set up there also. Of course the equipment could be moved, but it seems to me it is time the department gave some thought to the wisdom of moving these military establishments into cities which are already congested. Certainly it has been of great advantage in Saskatchewan to have training camps at Prince Albert and Maple Creek. It has taken a strain off the larger centres. In Weyburn we have an excellent barracks on which considerable money was
72537-201}
spent. It is now standing empty. It could easily train five or six hundred men, and they would be much better quartered there than in some of the larger cities. Before the department takes a definite step in the matter I hope that consideration will be given to putting in a few huts to nlake it possible for troops to be trained in various centres rather than concentrating them at one large point, with the danger of adding to the congestion that already exists.


James Layton Ralston: The thing which is being moved is the depot. The hon. member for Saskatoon City will correct me if I am wrong, but I think the vocational training establishment is still there. What is being moved is the depot. Honestly, while I agree with my hon. friend about dispersion as far as possible, I believe the depot can best be run when concentrated at one place. There you have, on the one hand, the men who are coming into the army, and on the other hand you have the men who are leaving the army. You have all your provision for induction into the army and medical examination. We are endeavouring to have these reception centres, as they are called, made just as complete as possible. It would mean two establishments if wre had to duplicate all that organization in Saskatoon or some other place. It is not done in the other provinces. In the case of the depot I do believe it is desirable to concentrate. A good deal of consideration was given to the matter before the decision was reached, and I believe the decision is sound.
The hon. member for Saskatoon City said a word about armouries. The policy is not to build armouries during the war, and I think I advised my hon. friend of that. So much in the way of temporary building has to be done that we feel we would not be justified in adopting any policy now of building permanent structures for the purpose of armouries. Primarily, of course, they would be for the use of what would become active battalions, but armouries are generally built for the reserve battalions in peace time. I have had representations from other places as well. I am sorry that I cannot hold out any hope of the present policy being changed, much as I should like to meet my hon. friend's wishes if we were in a position to do it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is vocational training to be retained at Saskatoon?


James Layton Ralston: I think so.
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Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: These are
the men. who are living under the grandstand in the stadium. Some consideration ought to be given to building huts for them.


James Layton Ralston: That is a situation which will be relieved when this move is made.


Mr. NOSE WORTHY:: While we are on
the subject of construction I will review a case for the minister's consideration. I think it has already been called to his attention. On September 11 last, twenty construction men employed by the Royal Canadian Engineers at London were discharged without being given any notice or any pay in lieu of notice. The matter was referred to selective service by the local union, and I have here copies of correspondence in which' the assistant director of national selective service assures the Canadian Congress of Labour that the work on which these men were engaged was not casual work and did not come within the conditions where discharge was possible without notice. I have here one letter in which he assures the secretary of the Canadian Congress of Labour that every effort is being made to induce national defence to pay these men their seven days' pay. He says in that letter:
I should hate to have to take legal action on the part of national selective service against national defence.
This matter has dragged on for more than eight months. The last correspondence I had was a letter from the Minister of Labour dated April 24, in which he says he is sending a special officer in to investigate the situation,-


James Layton Ralston: What is the date of
that?


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: and was to let me have a reply immediately. That is more than a month ago, and still these men are waiting for their seven days pay. Has the minister any information on this matter?


James Layton Ralston: Perhaps my hon. friend wrote me about it. I had forgotten about it until I asked my officers here. They tell me that the facts are as my hon. friend has stated, namely that these men were discharged without the seven days' notice and it was claimed that seven days' notice should be given. Apparently there has been some ruling by national selective service. Remarkably enough, the assistant deputy minister tells me that we cabled London for a telegraphic report which ought to be in to-day. That is to say, we did not want to deal with the matter until we had communicated with Lon-

don to find out if the district officer commanding had any comments. I take it that the matter will be dealt with promptly, as soon as the report is received.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: There are a few
questions I should like to ask in reference to this item. I think the discussion which has taken place so far indicates how impossible it is for the member of this house properly to check expenditure. The minister answered a while ago that to break down this item of $108 millions would be impossible because of the expenditures which are being made overseas.


James Layton Ralston: Oh, no. I gave all the subjects. I did not give the amounts, that is all.	^


John George Diefenbaker: I understand the amounts were given.


James Layton Ralston: I gave the items.


John George Diefenbaker: But there is no
break-down as to the items.


James Layton Ralston: Oh, yes. I gave a long list of items. *


John George Diefenbaker: Not the necessary particulars.


James Layton Ralston: Yes. I did not give the places.


John George Diefenbaker: No, I understand. That is just a break-down in amounts; that $108 millions is being broken down in the following particulars-


James Layton Ralston: That is right.


John George Diefenbaker: -but no opportunity comes thereby to make any close examination.


James Layton Ralston: Well now, wait. Let us get off on an even keel. For instance, coast defence was one of the items. My hon. friend does not expect me and will not ask me to give the places where coast defence expenditures are being made and how much they are.


John George Diefenbaker: That is true; coast defence, so many million dollars.


James Layton Ralston: Well, does my hon. friend expect me to give the committee all the particulars?


John George Diefenbaker: No.


James Layton Ralston: I thought not.


John George Diefenbaker: But I am just indicating how utterly fruitless it is to try to make any check of expenditures which have been or

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are being madej when all we have is information that so much is going to be expended. I am not arguing on the propriety of not giving full details. But I do think we are entitled to more information than we actually receive under this item. We should have some information as to w'hat camps in Canada are to receive expenditures this year, and in what amounts. Are any new camps or military establishments to be built or set up? And, just in that connection, are any further military sites to be secured and established?
In that connection would the minister explain the circumstances connected with the choice of Debert military camp, in Nova Scotia. No one objects to Nova Scotia receiving a military establishment; its closeness to the sea necessitated the establishment of a camp there. But if ever there was a camp chosen anywhere in Canada which was little short of disgraceful in its early stages in so far as the men are concerned who were required to live in that camp, it is Debert.


James Layton Ralston: I do not know what my hon. friend means. If he wants to particularize, all right, but he should not make a general statement of that kind.


John George Diefenbaker: I will particularize.


James Layton Ralston: Debert camp has certainly filled a marvellous place in the defence plans of Canada.


John George Diefenbaker: Yes, but I want to. know why this particular place was chosen.


James Layton Ralston: I will tell my hon. friend.


John George Diefenbaker: All right; that is what I am asking for. The minister is rather touchy on some of these things.


James Layton Ralston: When my hon. friend uses the expression "little short of disgraceful" in connection with the camp, I suggest he is exaggerating a little.


John George Diefenbaker: I say that the conditions in which some of these men were placed were just-that. In the spring of 1941 the camp was almost inundated. With all the available sites in Nova Scotia, the expenditures made on that camp in order to drain it are difficult to understand or to justify. I realize that further figures are available; up to February 26, 1941, the cost of draining that camp was $236,127.


James Layton Ralston: That is not excessive.


John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ascertain from the minister what has been the expenditure for drainage since, that is
in the past two years. That is a tremendous amount to expend just for drainage and getting the camp ready.


James Layton Ralston: Does my hon. friend know the size of the camp?


John George Diefenbaker: I criticize the
choice of that particular location.


James Layton Ralston: I say, does he know the size of the camp?


John George Diefenbaker: It is five thousand and some acres: 5,028 acres were to be acquired, according to the figures I have. I should like to know why a location was chosen for a camp that required an expenditure of almost a quarter of a million dollars for drainage when so many other alternative choices were available. I realize that at the outbreak of war, in the desire to secure immediate action, in the rush to establish camps and get operations under way, inevitably some choices might be made which would not be the best possible. But I should like to know ivho recommended the choice of this site, and who recommends the [DOT] choice of sites to-day. After a choice has been made by the military authorities, is that choice confirmed by the minister? Generally, I think, we should have a statement regarding the establishment of these camps and the choice of sites.	[DOT]


James Layton Ralston: I cannot at the moment throw my mind back to all the circumstances. Debert camp has been mentioned several times. The hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) seems to Rave a scunner against the camp'for some reason. On one occasion when he talked about its being low, I pointed out that according to the contours it was higher than Sussex camp, which is in his own province, and so far as I can remember I have never heard any complaint about that. '
Debert camp was chosen at a time when we needed a large camp for the concentration of troops down on the east coast. We needed it for tactical reasons. Debert was located, I think, by the engineers of the department and the engineers of the military district, as it was then,-the Atlantic command was not then formed. It was located and selected on the ground, first, of its tactical location. That is to say, it was near the railways. At the same time it was far enough back to provide for the reserve of troops which could be disposed of by moving over to Pictou and the short line towards Cape Breton-because it was within six miles of Truro, which is a junction
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point-moving into Halifax over the main line there, or moving down the valley over the Midland railway which connects with the Dominion Atlantic railway at Windsor: It was right at that junction point; and further, it was just about the right distance from Halifax and these coastal towns to be effective as a reserve camp. Further, it was directly beside a large airport which, as I recall, was a Royal Air Force airport at that time, although I am not quite sure about that; but Debert had been chosen, and the airport was either completed or well on the way to completion. Those, I would say, were the two main reasons, along with a third, that it was well located beside a good town, the town of Truro, where men could have a reasonable opportunity for diversion and recreation. I would say those were the three outstanding considerations which influenced the decision to select Debert camp.
My hon. friend speaks of the disgraceful condition. I think he must have in mind the idea that the land is low lying. He speaks of the cost of drainage. As a matter of fact, he is speaking about a camp which is nearly nine square miles, and if that area were to be drained all over it would cost a good deal of money. I only hope that the drainage has been effective. I was down there in the early days when Debert was just being cut out, and I shall never cease to admire the Regina Rifles who were there at the time pulling stumps out of the parade ground. They were helping in every possible way to get things into shape. They were doing a splendid job under conditions which were and which could not but be primitive at that time. The engineers themselves were practically the last to get into quarters of their own, for they were engaged in getting quarters for everyone else ready first. Nothing has been brought to my attention which indicates that Debert camp is in any condition that might be described as disgraceful. I think I would have heard about any such condition; it would have been brought to my attention when I was down-there.


John George Diefenbaker: What has been the cost of drainage since 1941?


James Layton Ralston: There were no major expenditures last year.


John George Diefenbaker: What was the
expenditure?


James Layton Ralston: There are nine miles of paved roads in the camp and a hard-surface parade ground. I consider that absolutely essential for any camp of that size, whether on the top of a hill or elsewhere. I consulted with the camp engineer and the engineer of the Atlantic command, and I may say that
(Mr. Ralston.]
the parade ground is about completed now. I am disappointed that my hon. friend should speak as he does about Debert camp, because I know of some people who have come from the United States, having visited the camp, and who were considerably impressed by it. They were people who knew something about camps and about construction and they wrote me a very complimentary letter with regard to the camp. My hon. friend will probably say that this was during the summer. As a matter of fact, I do not remember when it was. I think the hon. member has been misinformed to some extent when he speaks about disgraceful conditions. The camp has served a most useful purpose and has been one of our most efficient and effective camps in Canada.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What about Camp
Borden?


James Layton Ralston: The amount expended is about $2,000,000, including the construction at Meaford tank range.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is that the last fiscal year?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The minister mentioned . construction overseas. This item includes rentals in Canada. Does it include such items as the rental of headquarters buildings and billeting expenses in England?


James Layton Ralston: I am not sure about the last point. It includes rental of buildings, but I am not sure about billeting expenses, because there has -been a discussion about the per capita rate. In connection with some troops the capitation rate, as it is called, applies with regard to billets as well as certain other personal items.


Agar Rodney Adamson: But it would include, shall we say, corps headquarters?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, I am so advised.


Agar Rodney Adamson: One other question. When the department rents a building, does it employ an agency or does it do this work itself?


James Layton Ralston: It does the work itself.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is its own agent?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. You will see orders in council passed from time to time appointing so and so at a rate of so much a day when employed in connection with this particular work. These men cover all parts of the country. From time to time, however, many men from real estate agencies give their services free in the matter of advising.


Ernest Edward Perley: Coming back to the buildings in Saskatchewan I suggest to the minister

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that there are many armouries in the towns throughout the province, particularly in the southeastern part, which could be made use of. At Indian Head there is a good building of which more use could be made. Some of these armouries could be used for the training of home guards and veteran guards. Last year they were all taken away from Indian Head where they had quite a good corps in 1940 and in the early part of 1941. I wish the minister would give some attention to this. I believe there are some buildings at Grenfell and Moosomin, and, as I say, there is a good one at Indian Head. Better use could be made of these armouries.


James Layton Ralston: Is there one at Katepwa?


Ernest Edward Perley: Maybe the Minister of
Agriculture would' look after that. There may be one at Melville. I am pleading for southeastern Saskatchewan, however. I find that there are ten buildings in Regina which the department has rented either in whole or in part. Can the minister give an estimate of what proportion of this item for rentals will be paid in the city of Regina and what has been spent in repairs or in changes in these buildings to meet accommodation? I understand that there have been many changes in the buildings rented. Who pays for that? Does the landlord or the department?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot give now the
amount in this vote for the rental of buildings in Regina. The assistant deputy minister refers me to a return which I presume is the one my hon. friend is dealing with, namely, a return to No. 178 of March 22. That gives a complete list of buildings rented and rentals paid. This is not a very definite answer, but all I can say is that there is included in this item the rental of all these buildings in so far as they are retained by the department. That is the most 1 can say.


Ernest Edward Perley: Can the minister give the cost of repairs?


James Layton Ralston: The cost of remodelling?


Ernest Edward Perley: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: I think I could get
that for the hon. member.


John George Diefenbaker: I have not yet
received an answer. Possibly the minister has not the information available as to expenditures for drainage and the like in 1942 and 1943.


James Layton Ralston: At Debert?


John George Diefenbaker: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: No, I have not the information available. My officer tells me that no major expenditure has been made for that purpose in 1942-43. By major he would mean anything above $5,000.


John George Diefenbaker: I think the minister missed what I had in mind. In the choice of sites for military camps consideration should be given to the securing of sites where the expenditure of amounts for irrigation and drainage totalling $230,000 would not be necessary. That is the point I am endeavouring to make. In 1940, when I was there, conditions were such as to be most discouraging to the men established in that camp. Who makes the choice of sites? Is the final determination that of the minister? What has been the total expenditure, to date on Debert camp? I refer to expenditures for the purchase of land, the installation of facilities, and the like.
Then as to another matter, which is possibly the antithesis of drainage, namely the securing of water for the various camps, if my recollection is correct, in 1940 and 1941 the services of a company with office in London, Ontario, known as the International Water Supply company, were utilized for the purpose of ascertaining information in connection with and securing supplies of water.


James Layton Ralston: At Debert?


John George Diefenbaker: At all the camps
across Canada. How much was disbursed to that company during each of the years 1940, 1941 and 1942?


James Layton Ralston: One further word about Debert camp: my hon. friend says we should never have selected a site in connection with which $230,000 would have to be spent for drainage. I am quite satisfied that that figure includes expenditures for sewage and the other services necessary in a camp of that kind. I am satisfied it does not apply only to,surface drainage, as perhaps would be indicated by my hon. friend's remarks. Even if $230,000 did have to be spent for drainage in a camp of that size, if it had all the other features about which I have spoken, and they could not be obtained elsewhere, there would be ample justification in making the expenditure where such facilities can be obtained.
Water is one commodity in point. The Debert camp is placed where we can get water, and I can assure the committee that it is not everywhere that one can find water in sufficient quantities to serve 12,000 to 15,000 men, in a camp area as small as that at Debert.
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The choice of site, if I remember correctly, was based on the examination made by engineers in military district 6. They were the ones entrusted with the responsibility of making the preliminary survey in that district. The report-and when I say this I am only stating the practice-would be made in the usual course to the quartermaster-general. I have no doubt he would discuss the matter with the chief of the general staff, looking at it from the point of view of tactical position and the supplying of camp requirements. The matter would then go to the deputy minister, and then to the minister. That is the practice in connection with the choice of sites.
I remember filing a return last year which showed total expenditures at Debert amounting to something like 85,000,000. On that occasion I was replying to the hon. member for Cumberland. I have not the figures at the moment, but I shall get them.
I have not before me the information and figures respecting amounts paid to the International Water Supply company, but I will see that they are obtained.


Mr. HAZEN:: Recently I have received several letters from subdivisions of the Catholic Women's League in my constituency, in which they set out a resolution forwarded to the minister. I have not a copy of the resolution before me but, if I remember correctly, it refers to the lack of accommodation for holding divine services in the different training camps.	I presume this
matter has been brought to the attention of the minister. Is it receiving his consideration?
The statement the minister has placed on Hansard sets out the estimated total amount of expenditures to the end of the last fiscal year for construction, purchase, repairs and operating expenses in connection wfith properties. The total amount is 875,861,194. Would the minister give a break-down of that amount by military districts?


James Layton Ralston: 
Douglas King Hazen: That is the difficulty pointed out this afternoon by the hon. member for Lake Centre. It is almost impossible for the committee and the public to get at information-[DOT]


James Layton Ralston: Oh, I think it is.


Douglas King Hazen: as to wrhere a good deal of this money is spent. How many men can be trained at Debert training centre?


James Layton Ralston: There is accommodation for 13,000, all ranks, and 150 Canadian Women's Army Corps. And there are at present under construction building lines to accommodate two units.
With regard to chapels, I would point out that the matter lias had close attention. At present there are twenty-seven religious centres under construction. In all I anticipate there will be constructed something like forty-two across Canada. I should like to place on record the purpose of these chapels, because there was. some discussion about them during the victory loan campaign. The statement I have before me is in these words:
The need of these buildings is summed up by the principal chaplains as follows:
"The general consensus of opinion of the principal chaplains and district chaplains in L-anada and district officers commanding based upon the experience of the past three and a lialt years is that a building set apart solely or religious purposes is absolutely necessary in training centres and camps if the moral and religious needs of the men and women of the armed services are to be worthily met and if the chaplains are to carry out effectively their duty towards those for whose spiritual welfare they are responsible."
The general purpose of these buildings is that they be used as a religious centre not just on Sundays but for every day in the week. It will be a place where limited accommodation will be provided so that communion services can be held on Sundays and holy days and to permit of week-day services and special services and classes such as church membership and bible classes. These services and meetings will be simply for those who desire voluntarily to attend and are entirely apart from church parades which will be held as m the past in the open air during the summer and in the local churches during the winter.
The centre will also be a building where officers and men may come as they wish at any time when they are off duty for quiet and meditation. In the centre will be chaplains' rooms where members of the centre may feel free to come and talk with the chaplain on personal matters at any time they desire. In short it represents an exceedingly modest provision whereby there is maintained within the camp and as part of camp life an opportunity for the cultivation of spiritual and moral values along with the physical and intellectual development which is such a large part of camp activities. . . .
This matter has been most carefully considered by the department and by the govern- *

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merit in the light of the recommendations received from those who are responsible for the moral and spiritual welfare of the men and women of the army. The decision has not been made hastily but only after study over a considerable period with a view to appraising the needs and scrutinizing carefully the proposals involved -with a view to achieving the most economical structure which would meet these needs. I cannot help but feel that the expenditure of a sum within the range of a, modest amount such as the above as an aid to building character and fortifying morale is an investment well warranted both as an aid to success in the war and to the future of the nation in the hoped-for days of peace.
I am reading from a communication which I have sent to a number of people who have written me in connection with this matter. I thought it would be as well to place it on record so the committee might know the considerations which prompted the authorization of these religious centres.


Mr. QUELCH:: Could the minister give us any information with regard to a defence project at Youngstown, Alberta; the purpose for which it is being constructed and its estimated cost?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Before the minister leaves the matter of [DOT] chapels, did I understand him to say there were twenty-seven chapels to be built?


James Layton Ralston: Twenty-seven under construction now.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: With the
fifteen already built that will make a total of forty-two?


James Layton Ralston: No, it is the other way
round. There are twenty-seven under construction now, but the total will be forty-two.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There are
fifteen more to be built, and twenty-seven under construction?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What is the
seating capacity of each of these chapels?


James Layton Ralston: About two hundred on
the average, according to the deputy quarter-* master-general.


Douglas King Hazen: The minister told me he
would let me see a break-down of the expenditures last year for buildings and so on. Will he let me see that now or will he send me a copy?


James Layton Ralston: It is in this book, and I want the deputy quartermaster-general to have this book here in case there are other questions to be answered. If my hon. friend will come
over here I will show it to him, and then if the book is required he can give it back to the deputy quartermaster-general.


Howard Charles Green: How much of this item is to be spent on hospitals, first of all by way of capital expenditure, and second for repairs, operating expenses and rentals?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot tell my hon.
friend in regard to repairs, but' there is less than $2,000,000 in capital construction in regard to hospitals.


Howard Charles Green: What is the policy of the
government with regard to the construction of military hospitals? There have been complaints that the government builds military hospitals where it would be far better to construct additions to civilian hospitals. In most cases these military hospitals will not be needed after the war, whereas if an addition were put on a civilian hospital, that addition would be very useful to the people of the area after the war. It does seem to me that the government should very carefully consider whether or not it would be better to construct additions to civilian hospitals. That question came up at Victoria. I do not know the fa'cts of the case personally, but newspaper articles have stated that the government decided to build its own hospital at a cost of about a million dollars, whereas an addition could have been made to the Jubilee hospital at a cost of $250,000, just one-quarter as much. Then this article goes on to point out that after the war this wing would be badly needed by Jubilee hospital. Could the minister tell us what is the policy with regard to these hospitals?


James Layton Ralston: The policy in regard to hospitals must be determined by the particular circumstances. Obviously there is no opportunity to add to a hospital in the case of a camp which is isolated from any existing hospitals. There are a few cases, only a few -as a matter of fact I remember only one in connection with the army, and that was at Prince Rupert-where authorization may be given for the construction of an addition to an existing hospital. As the hon. member knows, this whole matter of hospitals now has been put in excellent shape, as far as preventing overlapping is concerned, with the creation of the interdepartmental hospitalization board which I think was the subject of discussion before the war expenditures committee last year. A civilian administrative member has been added to this board, at the instance of the war expenditures committee, and to it also has been added a hospital expert
316S
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in the person of Doctor George Stephens, formerly of Winnipeg. Treasury board will not give approval to the construction of a hospital without the approval of that committee. The committee meets whenever the need for hospital accommodation arises in a particular centre. It considers what the navy has there, what the army has there, what the air force has there, what pensions and national health have there and also what civilian facilities exist. In the light of those circumstances it decides the most economical and soundest method of procedure. The idea of building on to an existing hospital is attractive from some points of view. Economically, so far as immediate expenditure is concerned, it is not sound, because the cost per bed is very much higher than the cost of constructing an ordinary hospital. There is also the fact that it is highly desirable that service personnel have an opportunity, as part of their training, to treat and serve the service personnel in the hospital. I know of one case down at Gaspe where we rent a floor of the hospital. There the service doctors, the army, navy and air doctors, the orderlies and everyone connected with the service medical units, have the opportunity of dealing with their own patients; it is simply a wing or floor of the civilian hospital. When that opportunity presents itself we are glad to take advantage of it, but I think we can say that this matter of hospitals has had a thorough going over, and I believe the committee can be well assured that during the past year there has been little duplication in regard to hospital accommodation.


Howard Charles Green: I realize that there would be difficulties in administering an addition to a civilian hospital, but does not the minister think that in the long run it would be far cheaper, far more efficient and far more beneficial to the Cgnadian people for the department to build additions, wherever that is reasonably possible, instead of setting up its own military hospitals?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend quite properly puts in the provision, "where it is reasonably possible or practicable,'' because each case is different. I remember one case where the training centre was two miles away from the hospital in town. It was suggested that we should build an addition to that hospital. This would have meant the continual use of gasoline, tires and oil running back and forth all the time to this hospital, instead of having perhaps a ten-bed hospital right on the premises; therefore we decided not to do it. There might be another case, such as Gaspe, where it would be possible. I

am not sure whether it is a success, and I say that because I am in absolute ignorance as to just how we are getting along with it. However, I think it can be said that it is sound in the interests of everybody concerned and having regard to posh-war as well as emergency needs.


Howard Charles Green: Why was an addition not ouilt at Victoria?


James Layton Ralston: The deputy quartermaster-general is giving me this information from memory, but he tells me that his recollection is that we took over the normal school at Victoria. We spent about $75,000 and provided in effect a 200-bed hospital. To have provided the same facilities in any other way would have cost between $400,000 and $500,000. It is a permanent building which can be used after the war.


Victor Quelch: Perhaps the minister would answer my question. I was at Hanna last fall and I visited the office of the special areas board and was shown on a map the area which had been taken over by the defence department. This consisted of several townships from which the farmers had been moved but the chairman of the board did not seem to know for what purpose this land was being acquired.


James Layton Ralston: I may say to my hon. friend that I cannot tell him.


Victor Quelch: Perhaps the Minister of Munitions and Supply will know that.


James Layton Ralston: I have sent out a note to find out if we have anything on it.


Robert William Gladstone: Is consideration being given to the building of chapels at the army camps? There is a rumour to this effect, and I do not know whether it applies to the army or the air force.


James Layton Ralston: That is what I was
speaking about, but I called them religious centres because they are used not only as chapels but as places where the men can go to discuss their private affairs with the chaplains. The list I have before me shows that none of these chapels has cost more than $10,000, and they go down as low as $7,550.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What is the total amount that will be spent on the forty-two chapels? Will any camps be without chapels? Will the chapels to be provided be Roman Catholic or Protestant, depending upon the church affiliation of the chaplain?


James Layton Ralston: The total amount of the contracts let for the twenty-seven chapels is

War Appropriation-Army
S227.000. The chapels can be thrown open or can be used for the religious service of either denomination. When they are not being used for that purpose, there are private rooms where the chaplains may meet their parishioners. Religious centres are being built in all camps where a request has been made by the principal chaplain.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The next item is No.5, personnel supplies and services; food, medical and .dental stores, clothing and personal equipment, $185,868,300.


Howard Charles Green: About two months ago an announcement was made in the press that the army intended to reclaim thousands of men by curing physical defects. As I understood it, men who were not eligible for enlistment in the army would be taken in and given an operation or other necessary treatment in order to bring them up to the category which would permit them to serve. Has any progress been made with this plan?


James Layton Ralston: It would be difficult to give any statistics with regard to the army. As I remember it, the plan was that a man who volunteered and required remedial treatment would be sent to the Department of Pensions and National Health under a certain scheme of pay if he were a serious case. If he w'ere a less serious case, if he had some disability which could be readily cured, he would be enlisted in the army and treated by the army. I cannot give my hon. friend any statistics about those who came into the army, but I think any that were taken in would be taken in only on the sound judgment of the medical officers, I am advised that in connection with the Department of Pensions and National Health perhaps a few hundred have taken advantage of the provisions. These were mainly operative cases.


Howard Charles Green: Are the men enlisted before they get treatment?


James Layton Ralston: Not the serious cases; they go to the Department of Pensions and National Health.


Howard Charles Green: How do they get back to the army?


James Layton Ralston: They are discharged to the army.


Howard Charles Green: Are they attested before they go to the hospital?


James Layton Ralston: No. We do not enlist the men that go to the Department of Pensions
and National Health. They volunteer for the operation or other treatment and then come back to the army.


Howard Charles Green: Is that not the old scheme?
I was referring to a new scheme that had been announced.


James Layton Ralston: I do not know what my hon. friend is referring to.


Howard Charles Green: The scheme announced in March of this year was that a man would be enlisted and then receive treatment; the scheme the minister speaks of is one which has been in force for a considerable time. Under that scheme a man went voluntarily and took treatment and then when he was cured he enlisted or not as he chose. I should like to know what steps have been taken under the new plan.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I do not know whether these questions would come under the item which covers personnel supplies and services; food, medical and dental, stores. It is for the committee to decide.


Howard Charles Green: I think they would come under medical stores.


James Layton Ralston: I think I indicated that medical matters could be discussed under this item.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us any information about this scheme?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry, but I cannot. I have just sent for the information. I do not know of any change under which we enlist a man in the army when it is not almost certain that he will react successfully to remedial treatment. I am bound to say that my hon. friend has caught me off base when he refers to a report in March to the effect that some change has been made. I shall have the information very soon.


Howard Charles Green: I will send over the clipping.


Gordon Graydon: I should like to ask a question with regard to the clothing allowance, which I think would be within the purview of this particular item. General order 139 was issued by the army and under it a number of personnel were called up for service, many of whom were veterans of the last war. These men were taken into the administrative and training staffs at the basic training and other centres in Canada. Some of these men have been discharged for various reasons. Under the ordinary discharge arrangements, when a man leaves the army he is given a clothing allowance or the equivalent in clothing. I have had complaints from time to time from men discharged from the basic training centres who
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come within the category under general order 139, and I would ask the minister why a distinction is made in their case. Why are they not treated in the usual way upon discharge? These men are not given any clothing allowance. In every other respect these men are treated the same as those who receive a clothing allowance on discharge. The difference in treatment has caused considerable difficulty and some unrest. Would the minister explain, first, why the clothing allowance is not given to men in this category when it is given to men who are discharged in the ordinary way, and second, if the facts are as I have given them, and I think they are, will the minister give consideration to allowing a clothing allowance to the men who come within this category?


James Layton Ralston: On the first point I say frankly that I cannot give my hon. friend the reason. These pay and allowance regulations are fearfully and wonderfully made. But they are the result of a good deal of thought and consideration by those who took the merits pretty well into consideration. I remember the pay and allowance regulations being reviewed prior to 1939 by a responsible body of men, and they were not men in the army alone. As a result these regulations were evolved. That does not say they are like the laws of the Medes and Persians, because they have frequently been amended since. But I shall certainly look into the matter. As I remember it, the clothing allowance is granted after six months' service. But I will see what the reasons are and whether any changes can be made.	-


Gordon Graydon: I would ask the minister to do that if he would, because the men I have in mind had all served for six months, which is the period the minister mentioned. I should be glad if he would give this matter his earnest consideration with a view to seeing whether some change should be made.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: This item deals with stores, clothing and personal equipment. In the early stages of the war the army was at somewhat of a disadvantage because it was felt that the uniform was not as attractive or glamorous as uniforms in some of the other services. The minister is to be congratulated upon having issued to the army the walking-out uniform, which has done a great deal to improve the morale of the men. I believe in giving credit where credit is due, and I wish to say that whoever was responsible for designing the Canadian Women's 
Army Corps uniform is to be congratulated because it is by far the smartest uniform in all the women's services.


Mr. JACKMAN:: That is a matter of opinion.	.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I think it is generally accepted by everyone that the Canadian Women's Army Corps uniform is by far the smartest of all.


Mr. REID:: The air force pipe band's is not bad.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am speaking only of uniforms.


Thomas Reid: That is a uniform. Don't be insulting.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: May I ask the minister whether the Canadian army has decided to use the bowler type of tin hat? I understand that in Britain the British government have decided to adopt or at least are giving consideration to adopting a steel helmet similar to that used by United States troops, on the ground that it gives better protection to the back of the head and around the ears. Has the Canadian army given consideration to that, and if so, has any decision been reached?
The other question I wanted to ask was with reference to revolvers which I understand are now issued to all non-commissioned officers, to No. 1 man on the Bren gun, and to commissioned officers. I have been told that the Canadian army along with the other forces of the British commonwealth is the only one that uses the single-action revolver; that all the other armies use the automatic revolver. I tried to ascertain the reason, and the statement was made that there is greater accuracy and less waste of ammunition with the singleaction revolver. ,But that does not look like a very good argument because, if the automatic, even if it wasted ammunition, saved a man's life, it would be well worth it, Has consideration been given to issuing the automatic revolver instead of the single-action type? If not, what is the reason for continuing to use the single-action revolver?


James Layton Ralston: First, with regard to the bowler type of tin hat, the revised or United States pattern, extensive study and actual tests have been made of an improved pattern both in the United Kingdom and by the Canadian army. Exactly the same consideration will be given here that is being given in Great Britain. We are just waiting for a report on tests that are being made of certain modifications, having regard to .providing a

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helmet that will give not only greater security but further facilities for use, particularly by signallers and services of that kind.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: No decision has Ibeen reached?


James Layton Ralston: No. With regard to the revolver I can only say to my hon. friend that the possibility of improvement of weapons is always under consideration, and that supply has something to do with the matter. I can go no farther than that at the moment.


Gordon Graydon: I think in connection with all these items we should be given a break-down of the expenditures which are bulked here under several heads. Item No. 5, for instance, covers expenditures under personnel supplies and services; food, medical and dental stores, clothing and personal equipment; total $185,868,300. I should like to have a break-down, showing the expenditures under personnel, supplies and services, and so forth, if the minister has that information available. If it is not available at the moment, perhaps the minister will put it on Hansard.


James Layton Ralston: I can give it now roughly. Personnel supplies and services, $107,000,000; food, $60,000,000; medical and dental stores, $19,000,000.


Howard Charles Green: Why is there an increase of $40,000,000 in this item?


James Layton Ralston: The increases are to provide for an increase in personnel over the average of last year and to provide for a higher cost of issue of rations, not only of rations, but some other supplies as well.


Howard Charles Green: What is the average cost per man in the army for a year for food and clothing and various other supplies?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend understands that there are two or three divisions. Take clothing: what they call the vocabulary, as made up here, comes to roughly $S5 for clothing and all personal outfitting. That does not include rifles or any equipment of that kind. In addition to that, for certain parts of Canada and for Newfoundland there is an addition of about $25.


Howard Charles Green: For clothing, et cetera?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: That is, per year?


James Layton Ralston: No. That is the initial outfit. The total cost would depend upon how often it is renewed.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister the figures for cost of food per year per man?


James Layton Ralston: No; I have not the cost of food.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister get that?


James Layton Ralston: I do not know whether I can or not. I will see if I can.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Could the minister give us information regarding the regulations for issuing uniforms overseas? I have been informed that a number of men overseas are still wearing the uniforms they were issued three years ago. Some of them report that theirs have become so threadbare they are ashamed to wear them. I wonder if that can be possible.


James Layton Ralston: Of course I would say at first blush that it could not be possible, but I have learned enough on this job not to be surprised at anything, and I am very careful about making statements of that kind. Certainly, if the fact is as stated, there must be some most extraordinary situation in connection with it. I know that the supply of clothing is ample.


Joseph William Noseworthy: How frequently are uniforms issued?


James Layton Ralston: There is no particular time. Uniforms are issued when a new issue is regarded as being required. The man gets the new issue and his part-worn one is worn as a second. My hon. friend, I suppose, does not want to give me the name of his correspondent, or the boy will be regarded as complaining; but would he give me the unit?


Hugh Boulton Morphy: Yes; I can give the minister the name.


James Layton Ralston: Could he give me the unit?


Joseph William Noseworthy: Yes. I have the letter.


James Layton Ralston: I would appreciate it.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I have the letter which came from the soldier overseas. He makes the statement that he has been unable to get a new uniform since he got over, and the uniform he is wearing is out at the elbows and out at the knees.


James Layton Ralston: I may say that the estimate for clothing this year is down from last year, on account of the fact that we have a bigger reserve on hand.; so that the two things do not jibe.
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Gordon Graydon: In this item there is a substantial amount set aside for the food requirements of the army. Would the minister give us some general statement as to the catering arrangements with respect to the army, whether catering is handled locally, whether it is done in a general way by some central arrangement, or how it is dealt with?


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid there will be some hiatuses in my recital. The food is requisitioned by the district officers commanding the particular camps for which it is required. These requisitions come in here and are gone over at national defence headquarters, and what we call a contract demand is signed and sent over to the Department of Munitions and Supply. Munitions and supply put these demands together, not only for the army but also for the naval and air services, and purchase in quantities goods for delivery at certain points, at certain supply depots. The supply depots, of course, are all known to the supply authorities. There are supply depots in the districts, and in turn in the camps those supply depots are provided from the central depots. Sometimes all in-shipments are made direct to the supply depots and not to the district at all, and we have a supply officer there who issues to the units on the basis of the parade state the rations required for the particular day. If a unit is isolated, it probably has some storage facilities, so that it may have rations for two or three days in reserve.
From then on, the rations, of course, go to the unit quartermaster and from him to the sergeant cook, and by the sergeant cook are prepared for the men.
Speaking of the messing, I believe it has improved greatly. These are days of specialization. As the committee knows, we have a messing officer, Colonel R. H. Webb, who has been in charge of that matter. He has succeeded in impressing us with the fact that his branch is important, and the result has been that we have appointed messing officers in the various districts whose job it is to see to it not only that the food is provided but that it is put up in proper shape.
I would think that one of the chief arguments among these messing experts in reference to the preparation and serving of food is whether or not the so-called orderly system or the cafeteria system is to be used. I have heard both views expressed in camps; I myself am not in a position to express an opinion.

A good deal has been said about waste in camps. As is known, one of the jobs of the messing officers is to see to it that every possible care is taken to uge all usable food. Contracts are made for garbage, and what cannot be used in any way is destroyed in the incinerators.
That is a very rough and ready survey of the food situation, but it begins with the requisition and ends up with the men at the table.


Ernest Edward Perley: As regards a camp like Dundurn, would a contract for beef be let by the year?


James Layton Ralston: It might not be. It might be a contract let by the Department of Munitions and Supply to the supplier for a supply of so much beef to the camps in a certain area. Then the Department of Munitions and Supply would direct that so many hundredweight of beef be sent each day to Dundurn ; or it might be supplied direct to Regina and forwarded from there. But I would think Dundurn would be supplied direct by the contractor.


Gordon Graydon: Of course, contracts for supplies of food are wholly in the purview of the Department of Munitions and Supply.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, and they are generally made on a three months' basis, or something like that.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Since the director-general of medical' services is here, could the minister give us the figures for rejects in the army? I know these have already been given, but can they be broken down into causes of rejection, whether rejected for pulmonary reasons, skin disease, heart trouble, rupture, flat feet, mental causes, or for whatever reason? I know all that information is available, and I believe it would be of interest to the committee to have it.


James Layton Ralston: I do not want to have my hon. friend get us off on that if I can avoid it. I have a proposition to make to the committee with regard to general matters of that kind. I suggest with deference that the inquiry does not come quite within the purview of this item, but if my hon. friend thinks it does, I will stop.
Several questions have been asked, the answers to which I have not brought down yet, on items which we have passed. I suggest that in connection with the item for departmental administration we deal with any matters of that kind if they are not within the item we are discussing and if there is something about which questions have been asked. I do not

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want my hon. friend to open up the general departmental administration to have a free-for-all talk about the department again, except in so far as the discussion may be relevant to that item. It has been suggested that hon. members might ask certain questions if they do not insist on answers at the time.


Gordon Graydon: The minister may be
inviting the very thing he is trying to avoid. Under medical and dental stores, I cannot see very much reason why the hon. member might not be permitted to ask about the health of troops.


James Layton Ralston: Probably it would be
better and would help to keep us closer to the subject if we did that. I should prefer to consider it as part of this item. I have not the record before me. The other night I gave an indication of the large percentage of rejects which has taken place. I believe the rejects are in the vicinity of fifty per cent at the present time, and I may observe that this was under consideration in connection with the Pulhems system. Was my hon. friend asking about the break-down?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: This is only approximate.
It may change as the system gets into effect, and there may be some difference between those called under the National Resources Mobilization Act and the volunteers, because the volunteers are in a wider range of age class than those under the National Resources Mobilization Act. Roughly, however, the rejections are of the order of thirty-five per cent on medical grounds and fifteen per cent on nervous and mental grounds.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Thirty-five per cent of
the total?


James Layton Ralston: Of those examined, fifty
per cent roughly are rejected, and thirty-five per cent of that fifty per cent are rejected on the ground of physical disability and about fifteen per cent on the ground of mental and nervous disorder.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is, of the total
fifty per cent rejected, thirty-five per cent are on physical grounds and fifteen per cent on mental?	*


James Layton Ralston: One hundred men come
up and fifty are rejected. Of those fifty, thirty-five are rejected on physical grounds and fifteen on the ground of mental or nervous disability.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is what I am driving at. I think it would help the committee
on social security and this committee as well, to get at the true state of the health of Canada at the present time if we knew how many were rejected for tubercular lesions, for example. These figures are available, because at the reception depots-this I know is the case at the depot in No. 2 district-at the end of a period the percentages are calculated from a daily tally. The information derived therefrom would be very useful for this committee.


James Layton Ralston: This committee or another?


Agar Rodney Adamson: It would be useful for
this committee, and the other one could use it, too.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Would the minister be good enough to say whether there is any coordination in the handling of food and the preparation and serving of it between the different armed services, particularly among the army, the air force and perhaps the navy? In connection with the messing officers, with regard to whom the minister mentioned Colonel Webb, are these qualified medical practitioners and nutritionists, or are they drawn from the quartermaster's department in accordance with the manner in which the army used to be fed in the old days? Does the army retain women in connection with the preparation of food or in connection with dietary matters as regards the feeding of the troops? I have heard it said that in one of the services the orderly officer, instead of going round to the mess halls and asking the men if they had complaints, usually receiving no response at all. as has always been the custom, is now required, during his day on duty, to take his meals with the men in order to find out for himself just what the condition of the food is. Would the minister be good enough the answer these questions?
There is another question I might ask at the same time. Is it true that the ration given to our men in Canada is greater than the ration which maintains the fighting strength of our own soldiers in Great Britain?


James Layton Ralston: First, with regard to coordination, each of the armed services has its own plans for the serving of food.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: There is no coordination despite the tremendous amount of research work that has gone on in one or other of the services? I frequently hear-


James Layton Ralston: Please let me finish. Each service has to do with the serving of its own food, but there is coordination in the nutrition committee. We have a joint nutrition com-
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mittee dealing with all three services, headed by an eminent Toronto gentleman, a member of the faculty of the university of Toronto.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: How long has that joint committee been in operation?


James Layton Ralston: A year anyway; perhaps longer than that. Each service has to do with the actual serving of its own food. What was the other question?


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Is there a uniform diet for the men in the army, and for the air force in Canada?


James Layton Ralston: They have a uniform diet, but there are options on the diet. Some units may take a different option from others.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: With regard! to the messing officers whom the minister mentioned, are these men qualified medical practitioners, or are they drawn from the quartermaster's department? Further, does the army employ women in connection with the preparation of food or as dietitians at the various army depots?


James Layton Ralston: The messing officers are not medical officers, nor are they from the quartermaster's department. Generally, they are from the unit and are given special training as arranged by Colonel Webb and his messing branch. With regard to the preparation of food by women, in some camps women do prepare food and in others they do not. I have explained that the supply of C.W.A.C personnel is not great enough to supply all our needs in that respect. Generally speaking, women in hospitals do prepare the food and there are professional women dietitians as well.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: My other question is
whether the food ration for our troops in Canada is greater than that sufficient adequately to maintain the fighting strength of our troops in Great Britain?


James Layton Ralston: The ration overseas is the ration which conforms with British standards, and is regarded as quite adequate to maintain the fighting standards of troops overseas.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Is the ration in Canada a greater or lesser amount? ,


James Layton Ralston: As my hon. friend knows, I think the ration in Canada is greater in some instances.


James Joseph McCann: It would be too bad if the impression were to go out to the people of Canada that fifteen per cent of those whc come up for medical examination are rejected on the ground of mental and nervous conditions. I suggest that the implication and the

significance of such a statement would cause a great deal of concern in the minds of our people. I suggest further that the minister use the term " emotional instability," which is used under the Pulhems system. This term conveys an entirely different impression from saying that these people are mentally unsound or suffering from a nervous condition.


James Layton Ralston: I must say I never liked the term because "emotional instability" did not seem to convey anything. However, I certainly accept the correction, and shall be glad to use it.


James Joseph McCann: The other term is too
strong.


James Layton Ralston: If permitted, I would insert the term in the record, in place of the other one.


Gordon Graydon: It sounds like a legal
term.


James Joseph McCann: That is one of the classifications under the new system.


James Layton Ralston: As my hon. friend is
aware, reference to a mental condition includes not only a nervous condition but also low' mentality.


James Joseph McCann: On many occasions I have been asked about the number of men being returned from England, and why there are so many with a mental condition. The newspapers have stated on occasions that so many men have been returned on account of mental condition. Those men may be emotionally unstable, but that is an entirely different condition from what is implied in the general understanding of a mental condition.


James Layton Ralston: We will use the term
" emotional instability," then.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: We have been told the percentage of men rejected upon application for enlistment. Further, we are told there have been about 100,000 discharges from the army, of which number about 7,000 have been returned. Could the minister give the percentage of the 100,000 who have been discharged on account of either physical defects or emotional instability? I have always pointed out that this is a very large percentage of waste. The minister may be in a position to tell us the cause for this tremendous number of discharges of men who have had some training in the armed forces.


James Layton Ralston: The director-general of
medical services tells me that, to be entirely accurate in connection with cases of nervous or mental disability, one ought not to use the

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classification I used, but rather one would refer to emotional instability and mental deficiency. There are two factors. There are not only the simple neurotic types represented by the term " emotional instability," but also those who are mentally deficient.


Agar Rodney Adamson: And there are morons, as well.


James Layton Ralston: The number of discharges, according to part 2, unit orders- and I have to put it in that way, because there is some difference between part 2, unit orders and the number of discharges actually recorded here in the records office -stands at 74,410, to April 30, 1943. Those medically unfit, including the mentally deficient and emotionally unstable-and they are classified together-number 54,044. That * does not include personnel under the National Resources Mobilization Act. In the beginning the records office in charge of National Resources Mobilization Act personnel had a tremendous load placed upon them. They did not have time to make up the Hollerith cards. However, they have been catching up on the Hollerith system, and I believe within three or four weeks we shall have the full figures for personnel under the National Resources Mobilization Act. I refer to discharges particularly. They will be in addition to the number I have given.


James Arthur Ross: I should like to find out whether the great percentage of these people broke down in training, or Whether the examination upon attestation had been insufficient. It seems to me that in a large percentage of cases some medical defect may have been missed, upon enlistment.


James Layton Ralston: I believe I have given my hon. friend all the information I have. Of course I have not individual case histories.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I disagree with the hon. member for Renfrew South. In my opinion the Canadian people should be shocked, and the more shocking we can do in respect of our mental attitude toward mental health in Canada, the sooner we are likely to improve it. According to the "Canada Year Book", numbers in our mental institutions are doubling every thirty years. That is a very serious condition, and the sooner the Dominion of Canada is shocked into doing something about the mental health of our people, the better it will be. I hope the figures we hope to get from the army will show the seriousness of the situation. That is why I raised the matter.


Joseph William Noseworthy: Under this item would the minister give an outline of the educational work being done among the soldiers? I am thinking of educational work apart from regular army training.
While I am on my feet I should like to compliment the minister and his department upon the magnificent job of educational work they are doing in the educational centre at North Bay. I have watched the progress of the work there, and I have been delighted to find the excellent job being done in that camp.


James Layton Ralston: The hon. member was most generous in the letter he wrote me the other day in which he referred to his visit to North Bay. I appreciate what he has said.
The army has two educational centres, one at North Bay and the other at Joliette. These two centres handle men who are not mentally deficient or emotionally instable, but who have not had a fair chance in civil life and who, as a result, are simply illiterate. They are promising material, if given an opportunity to learn. We send them to these points. In this work we have been extremely fortunate in obtaining not only men of excellent experience as educationists, but men who have a sympathetic understanding of the situation, and who realize that they are salvaging an important asset not only for the army but for Canada. The men at these training centres, both Joliette and North Bay, get their basic training there instead of at an ordinary training centre, and at the same time they are given this educational training. I do not * think that educational training is limited in the same way; that is to say, a man is not told that he must train for two months and that is all he gets. What we try to do is to train them sufficiently that they can be reasonably efficient soldiers; and of course it is a satisfaction to them, as it is to the teachers, to have them become more proficient in training which will help them in connection with their soldiering and also will enable them to write to the folks back home and let them know that some of the opportunities which hitherto they have been denied have finally come to them. It has been a great satisfaction. The number is not large, of course; North Bay, I think, would take about 750, and Joliette nearly the same number, but there is no doubt it is a worth-while investment and a worth-while effort, and I am sure it will yield good results to the army and to the country as well.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: What standard is used to decide whether or not a man is illiterate?
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James Layton Ralston: You mean before he goes to one of these camps?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes. Is it the ability to read and write?


James Layton Ralston: The army examiner at the depot, recruiting centre or induction centre examines the man and decides whether or not his mental capacity is such that he would be able to absorb training and give promise of becoming a useful soldier. If that is decided, the army examiner makes his report accordingly and the man goes to the centre, where the officer in charge has that knowledge of his qualifications and knows what he requires in the way of special attention. I am also reminded that not at North Bay, not at Joliette, but throughout the camps the directorate of army education which is under Colonel Kilpatrick, who is known to a great many hon. members, has the benefit of the help and cooperation of the Canadian Legion educational services, which, as hon. members know, has been operating in Canada and overseas ever since the beginning of the war. An attempt has been made to connect the legion services and those services which perhaps the army has more facilities to furnish, and put them together in the shape of something which would be useful primarily to make a man a better soldier-and I want to impress this upon the committee-because that is the army's job; but that effort cannot help but have its effect in fitting a man to be a better citizen as well. They are not given the frills or the embroidery; they are given good, sound education which will help them both in the army and in civilian life.


George Hugh Castleden: Could the minister give the percentage of the men enlisting in Canada who are classed as illiterate?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot give that at the moment, but I will see if I can get it.


Gordon Graydon: I should like to make one observation in respect of a matter which came up a few moments ago, as to the use of the medical term "emotional instability". It seems to me that in connection with those who return from overseas who may come within that classification we should give some consideration to the use of another expression, perhaps that which was suggested by the hon. member for Renfrew South. I think our men who come back suffering either temporarily or permanently from that condition should be regarded as war-shock casualties instead. of being called "emotionally unstable" or considered to have some mental incapacity, because it seems to me there i3 a vast difference. I think we owe that much to the men

who have gone through so much in the air, on land and at sea, and I should like to offer that suggestion to the minister. I believe some other term should be used in order to remove any vestige of stigma in that regard. I think the expression "war shock" would be proper and appropriate in that connection.


James Layton Ralston: So far .we have been using the term in connection with men who have been rejected, not in regard to men who have been discharged; I want to point that out.


James Arthur Ross: I should like to ask whether in the medical examination given to a person offering to enlist., a thorough examination is made for venereal disease and, if not, why it is not considered feasible to do so.


James Layton Ralston: I have discussed this matter before the committee on previous occasions. As was indicated in a return brought down, the situation is that the Wassermann test is not administered at the time of enlistment. The committee will recognize, and we are so advised by the medical authorities, that this is not necessary; that is to say, a man do'es not need to have a negative Wassermann test to be qualified to be admitted to the army or any other of the armed services. The point is to discover his condition, if he should have a positive reaction, and to see that he is treated promptly. What the army has done is to arrange and put into effect a system whereby men will be given a Wassermann test as soon as possible after enlistment. I may say that positive reactions do not always indicate v.d.s. or v.d.g.; but those who have positive reactions are immediately put under observation, and if the disease exists, they are given prompt treatment. The principal physical equipment necessary in connection with the Wassermann test is the laboratory equipment; as my hon. friend knows, it simply consists of taking a sample of the blood, and the laboratory facilities are used to test the blood and keep proper records. Arrangements have, I think, been made with every province whereby provincial laboratories are to be placed at the disposal of the armed forces, and these facilities are being made available. I am hoping that by July of this year we shall have facilities throughout Canada for making between three and four hundred thousand tests a year. In that connection I just wish to say that some people have the idea there has been no Wassermann test in the army. There has not been a universal Wassermann test, but I am told there have been over 143,000 Wassermann tests made by the Department of Pensions and National Health as well as the army, probably during the last one and a half to two years.

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James Arthur Ross: Then it is the intention to make these tests compulsory as soon as possible after a man has enlisted; is that it?


James Layton Ralston: The order is out now making it compulsory for the medical officers to give the men the test. There is only one thing that is lacking, namely, laboratory facilities. They are available in quite a number of the provinces, and as fast as they become available generally the tests will be given. We shall be able to catch up with those who did not have the test promptly after they came in. We expect that by July 1, the machinery will be in operation over the dominion.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Will the minister tell us after recess how many men in Canada and how many men overseas have been tested up to date?


James Layton Ralston: Yes; I shall have that.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister the information about reclaiming men who are unfit?


James Layton Ralston: No.
The hon. member for Weyburn asked the numbers who had been given the Wassermann test in Canada and overseas to date. We have not the overseas figures, but in Canada over 143.000 were tested in 1942, and the approximate number to date this year is 75,000. The plan is that the facilities will be such that about 360,000 will have been tested during this year, beginning with June 1.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Are plans being made to give all the men overseas the Wassermann test also?


Victor Quelch: Has the minister obtained information regarding the Youngstown project?


James Layton Ralston: I shall have to ask my hon. friend to give me more particulars about that. I intended to inquire, but was so crowded that I did not have time.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: On May 13 I had on the order paper a question, which was passed as an order for a return, in regard to checking for venereal disease the men who had been enlisted into the army. I asked if they were checked. I also wish to know if those who were rejected for the army were also checked. The reason why I ask is that if those checked are given treatment and cured, they might make good material later on for the army. Since then, I notice that
Lieutenant-Colonel Williams said at a meeting of the social security committee of this house that an army general order had gone out three weeks before to give routine blood tests for venereal disease to those enlisted in the army. Has that policy been started yet?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. Perhaps my hon. friend was not here this afternoon.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I had to go out just before six o'clock.


James Layton Ralston: That routine order has been issued. The principal necessity in con-' nection with the Wassermann test is laboratory facilities. It is a blood test and the test has to be made in the laboratory. Arrangements have been made with all the provinces to supply their laboratory facilities, and by June 1-I said July this afternoon-it .is expected that things will be in shape to start the tests immediately and to follow them through so that about 360,000 will have been tested when the year is over. There seems to be some misapprehension about the Wassermann test, and my hon. friend showed it in his question. Men are not generally rejected, as I understand it, because they happen to show a positive reaction; treatment, unless they are in a late stage, is efficacious and generally cures them. Therefore, men are taken in, not rejected on that account. The men who are so far gone, shall I say, as to be rejected go back into civil life. Was my hon. friend asking whether these cases were reported?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is what I wished to find out, whether they are quarantined and reported, as I believe is done in the United States, given treatment and let go when cured.
Mr. R,ALSTON: They are all reported to the civilian authorities if they are rejected on that account.	.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The
minister stated that the tests are to begin in June or July. I understand that practically all the training camps across Canada permit the men to go to the Red Cross blood-donor clinics and give their blood. When they go to these clinics they are given the Wassermann test. Does the army keep a check on these cases to see if they are O.K.?


James Layton Ralston: The director-general of
medical services advises me that we do get a check on that. When men who go from the army to these blood-donor clinics are found to have a Wassermann reaction, we get a report on them.
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Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the women's army undergo the same check?


James Layton Ralston: The intention is that
they will be checked in the same way as the men.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is it the
intention of the department to give all the men overseas the Wassermann test? The reason why I ask is this. I notice that some writers in Great Britain have been expressing considerable alarm over the serious increase in venereal disease in Great Britain. Therefore I think it is important to know whether the department is planning to examine all the men now stationed in Great Britain. Can the minister also give us the number of men who have been discharged from the army on account of v.d.s. or v.d.g., anduthe number of men who have been treated and retained in the service as cured?


James Layton Ralston: I am informed by the
director-general of medical services that no instructions have been given overseas. for giving everybody over there the Wassermann test; that is, men who have been in the army. The check is planned to be made upon reexamination or upon hospitalization. Hon. members will see that men who have been over there for a good while and are in healthy condition are not in quite the same position as the men in Canada. As a matter of fact, this whole movement, as my hon. friend knows, is not as active in the United Kingdom, even among the civilian authorities, as it is in Canada.
As to the number discharged, in a return to an order of the bouse dated March 24, 1943, order No. 41, it was asked: "How many have been discharged from all branches of the active service overseas up to December 1, 1942?" The answer was, "7,722." "What percentage of these were discharged because they were suffering from syphilis?" The answer was "-725 per cent, a total of 56 oases." Then, question No. 5, "How many of the armed forces serving in Canada only were discharged up to December 1, 1942?" Answer, "71,488." "AVhat percentage of these were discharged because of syphilis?" Answer, "-505 per cent, or a total of 361 cases."


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The minister was to give me the figures of how many men have been treated and cured.


James Layton Ralston: We have not them right here. The director-general of medical services is endeavouring to see if he can get them.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It seems to me that some consideration ought to be given to the' advisability of making the Wassermann test universal for Canadian troops now stationed in Great Britain. One of the British medical authorities made the statement in a periodical a few weeks ago that venereal disease in Great Britain had increased about forty per cent and that there was a great deal of alarm on that account. I would think that for the protection of the Canadian troops there should be periodic examinations. I know the laboratory facilities required would be very large, but it would seem to be possible to take men by units, by brigades or divisions, and have at least ah annual Wassermann test for the protection of these men in order that proper treatment might be given before the infection had done serious damage.


James Layton Ralston: I have made a note of what my hon. friend has said, and I will discuss it with the director-general of medical services. He tells me there is a periodic examination, but it is not a periodic Wassermann test, which of course is what my hon. friend is talking about.


James Joseph McCann: Is it the intention of the army medical authorities to have a blood-reaction test on discharge from the army or on demobilization? It would be a protection to the individual himself and also to the civil population, and it might provide information worth while in the event of a man being discharged and being a potential pensioner.


James Layton Ralston: I have made a note also of that. The matter of a test on discharge as distinguished from a test during service has not been determined upon, but I will discuss it with the director-general of medical services.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: 
James Layton Ralston: Of course, as my hon. friend understands, it depends upon the location of these staff houses. I will make inquiries. We do not want to build any hospitals if we can adapt to the purpose places which are already available. I take it that these houses are in industrial districts.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes, they all are in industrial towns. They are located right across Canada, at Sorel, St. Catharines. Peterborough, Hamilton, Fort William, Pictou, New Glasgow, Halifax, Amherst, Saint John, Prince Rupert, Vancouver, and Esquimalt.


James Joseph McCann: What amount of money does the department propose to spend this year with reference to additions to civilian hospitals throughout Canada to be used during the war period for the treatment of men in the service? I understand that as a matter of policy the government have, adopted the plan of making grants to civilian hospitals. A case in point is the city of Ottawa, where an addition is being made to the Civic hospital. Is that general policy throughout the country and, if so, what amount does the government propose to spend within the next year for this purpose?


James Layton Ralston: As I was explaining this afternoon, it cannot be said that there is a general policy of spending money for additions to civilian hospitals. Each case has to depend upon its merits and the circumstances. That is to say, in a city it may be quite possible to do that, and in camps, of course, it is impossible. There is not any specific amount which is set aside for that purpose, but each case will come before the interdepartmental committee, and if authority is given, of course the money will be available. There is sufficient money in this vote to take care of that situation.


James Joseph McCann: Has the government given any further consideration to the matter of amalgamating the medical services of the three departments? Two years ago, when the war appropriation estimates were up, I made some observations along this line. It is generally known that there is a very considerable shortage of medical personnel throughout the country, and the services of the medical profession have been given freely and generously from one end of Canada to the other. I have felt since the beginning of the war that it was a triplication of services to have a medical corps in the army, one for the air force, and a separate one for the navy. I have suggested before that we could have a distinctive Canadian medical corps; call it the Royal Canadian
Medical Corps and give the members a distinctive uniform, and they could render service in any particular branch. After all, when men or women in the services are ill and go into hospital, there are very few problems peculiar to one branch of the service. I understand that in connection with the air force problems arise having to do with flying and with altitude, but they are not such as could not be easily handled by a medical board as one unit.
My reason for making the proposal is, partly on account of the enormous expense which is entailed to the. country in having three services, but more particularly because there is throughout Canada a very serious shortage of medical men to take care of the civilian population. I know this matter is being studied and acted upon by the assignments and procurements board; steps are taken to keep available medical men, especially in rural and smaller communities, in order that these essential services to the civilian and the industrial populations may not be lessened and that there will be a reasonable amount of care in these particular localities. I believe, and I think it is the opinion of medical men throughout the country, that it is a waste of money, man-power and efficiency to have a triplication of services. _ I do not know personally, but I have been told that last year, on the Pacific coast, for 6,000 men in the naval service there were fifty-four doctors. That- would work out at one doctor to 150 men, which of course is out of all proportion to the number who attend to the civilian population ordinarily. I submit to the minister that it is an unfair distribution of an essential service.
While I am on this point I wish to commend the minister for the tribute which he paid the other day to the medical men of this country. The derogatory and insulting remarks made by the hon. member for Temis-couata with reference to the medical men, that they represented the dregs of the pro-fesson, are absolutely untrue. It is false and is a gratuitous insult, and I hurl it back into the teeth of the man who made it. After all, the medical men in the armed services are but a cross-section of those who are in the profession in Canada. Let me say that the medical profession in this dominion stands as high as that profession does in any country in the world. That is generally conceded, and to have a member of this house hurl an insult at a dignified and worthy profession, a profession that gave freely of its services in' the last war and is giving those services with equal liberality in this war, is not worthy of the man who made that statement.
I wish the minister would take into consideration what I am about to submit to him
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The war may last for a couple of years longer, and although it would have been good business economically, from the point of view of saving man-power, to have had one medical board for the three services at the beginning of the war, it is not too late, because if the War drags on for another two or three years, not only the services of the armed forces but also the civilian services will suffer for lack of trained medical personnel.


James Layton Ralston: I am glad that the hon. member has spoken as he has. I felt really that what I had said was inadequate to deal with the situation, on which I hold views as strongly as the hon. gentleman does. I may say to him that when I was speaking the other day of the members of the medical profession in the armed forces I intended to mention, and I should have mentioned, the cooperation which has been given by the medical profession generally to the armed forces, whether the members of the profession happen to be in uniform or not. Speaking as a member of another profession, I am sure that no profession could have given more wholeheartedly or more devotedly or effectually of their time and talents than the medical profession in Canada generally has done, and that has meant long hours of service contributed gratuitously in an endeavour to assist the armed forces and to help in the prosecution of the war.
The Canadian Medical association, including their French-speaking compatriots in the province of Quebec, have all united to see that everything possible was done in order to serve the armed forces and at the same time to endeavour to meet the needs of the civilian community; and men have worked early and late, committees of doctors in the various towns, at some disagreeable tasks in an effort to find men who could serve in each of these capacities.
In reference to the matter of scrambling of medical services in the armed forces, that is a subject which is being considered by the medical assignment and procurement board which has made a survey of all Canada in order to ascertain, first, the supply, and, second, the needs, not only of the armed services but of the civilian population as well. In their report I am sure they will be dealing with the question of the best use of medical man-power in the three armed services and also in the department of pensions, which is the other governmental service particularly concerned. What may be done in respect of that matter I cannot of course predict.
Members of the committee will recall that the unscrambling of the services came at a time when strong representations were made

that there were differences in technique and in the manner of handling the various disabilities that arose as a result of the particular service in rvhich a man happened to be engaged, and it was also at a time when medical man-power was not nearly as scarce as it is to-day. The assignment and procurement board has the matter fully under consideration, and the government will give every attention to it when the report is received.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps it might be of interest to know, now that the three ministers are in the house, the distribution of medical men in the three services. How many are there in the army, how many in the air force and how many in the navy? That goes to the root of the question that has been raised.


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: May I ask the hon. member for Renfrew South one question with regard to the figures he has given of the medical men on the Pacific coast. I understood him to say that there were fifty-four medical men in that area for a total force of 6,000. I wonder if he has checked those figures.' My impression is that the number of doctors he has given is too high. It is about thirty, I think, but I cannot speak with assurance on the point.


James Joseph McCann: I have not made that
statement from my own personal knowledge. I was told by a medical man in the service that as at November 1, 1942, these figures were correct, fifty-four doctors for 6,000 men in the naval services there. I am not making that statement critically, because it is only a maldistribution of man-power, and at the time it may well have been that men were congregated in British Columbia when the forces were there and more forces may have been expected. I can readily understand the difficulties w'hich the minister and his advisers will have with reference to the distribution of medical personnel. You cannot just call up a doctor or procure one out of a mail order catalogue, and it may have been that the men were there prior to the time when the forces that it was expected would be there had arrived. I am quite sure that such a proportion may exist in other places and in other parts of the service, and in making the statement I do not intend to be critical. My only wish is that the men who are entitled to it shall receive the best service there is, but that at the same time other parts of the country, in civilian and industrial life, may also have a fair distribution.


Angus Lewis Macdonald: If there were such a number of doctors on the

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Pacific coast at the time, a good many of them must hare been there for training purposes, perhaps for only a few weeks or a month. I was there in late October, and my recollection is there were about thirty doctors at that time. Even some of those were doctors merely attached to the base for the necessary training and disciplinary course. I think the average number of doctors in the navy is something like four for every 1,000 men, or one for every 250 men.


James Joseph McCann: I suggest to the armed services that, if there is and continues to be a shortage of medical men, young men who are of age and practising medicine throughout Canada be inducted into the armed forces, and that it be unnecessary for them to take basic training. Let them return to their civilian practices, but be on call at any time at twenty-four or forty-eight hours' notice. I believe this suggestion would work out well. If the time comes when we have to send increased reinforcements overseas, and it becomes necessary to augment the numbers in the medical services, then in from forty-eight to seventy-two hours those men already inducted into the medical corps of the armed services could on short notice report for duty.


James Layton Ralston: The leader of the opposition asked a question as to the number of doctors in the three services. As gt April 30, 1943, my figures show: navy, 301; army, 2,135; air force, 683, making a total of 3,119. From July, 1942, to the present date the following have been assigned by the medical assignment and procurement board: for the navy, 100; for the army, 677; for the air force, 181.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: At Camp Borden a clinic has been set up by chiropodists, of Toronto. Have any other camps chiropodist clinics? Are any being taken in, and what training are they being given? I know of a number of men who, when on leave, in order to remain in the army, have gone to chiropodists, and have also bought special shoes or boots so as to participate in the marching.


James Layton Ralston: I am told that the services of chiropodists are being utilized at many of the big camps. Camp Borden is the only camp at which a class is being carried on. As the hon. member knows, the Royal Canadian Army Medical corps training centre is at Borden, and that would be the natural place to train chiropodists.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On item 6-Signal and wireless equipment, line construction, et cetera, 827,826,751.
Howard Charles Green: How much of this is for installations overseas, and how much for Canada? Why should there be an increase of practically 100 per cent?


James Layton Ralston: The amount shown as expended .for 1942-43 is what was actually expended, under existing conditions. It was anticipated that a great deal more would have been expended but, in view of the comparative inactivity, it was not. The reason for the difference is the increased equipment and reserves, looking forward to the possible activity of this fiscal year.


Howard Charles Green: Is it practically all to be expended in Canada?	*


James Layton Ralston: This money?


Howard Charles Green: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: Canadian wireless, particularly, is really just coming into its own, so far as extensive production is concerned. In the past there has been a great deal of expenditure on wireless sets of the United Kingdom. We have developed two or three sets of our own which are particularly good, and of which we are rather proud; and there will be a very much larger proportion spent in Canada this year.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does this take in teletype machines? I understand that up to a few months ago if repair work had to be done outside Ottawa, an Ottawa repairman did the work. At the same time there was a man in the services, stationed at Kingston, who, although a good repairman, was never used. The Ottawa man was always called in.


James Layton Ralston: If that happened I think it was an instance of poor administration. The director of signals will make inquiry into the matter. Repair districts are set up throughout Canada, and of course there will be a distribution of workmen.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On item 7-Ammunition and bombs, 8273,325,890.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Why is this item fifteen times greater than it was last year?


James Layton Ralston: For the same reason I gave the hon. member for Vancouver South in connection with another item. This item, also, was much larger in last year's estimates than
31S2
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subsequent activities warranted. The present item provides for full equipment and reserves for every gun and mortar the Canadian army or any of its formations will have for the whole year. That is the simple explanation of it.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the army buy from the Department, of Munitions and Supply, or direct from the plants?


James Layton Ralston: Sometimes. There is an arrangement with the British under which ammunition is bought by-the British. Since it is anticipated we shall be serving with the British, when we serve with them we will be furnished by' them with ammunition. It will be Canadian ammunition. But, as in the last war, it is based upon a capitation basis; that is to say, so much per gun. The rounds are not counted; it is just simply a service for the guns which is provided by the British.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Formerly the arsenal at Quebec, and other Canadian arsenals were under the control 'of the Department of National Defence. Is that so to-day?


James Layton Ralston: It is under the Department of Munitions and Supply.	[DOT]


Angus MacInnis: I shall not discuss the matter further, then, at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On item 8-Armament, including rifles, machine guns, mortars and guns of all descriptions, 8123,070.907.
Gordon Graydon: Having in mind the matter of public security, can the minister make a statement as to the * proportion of manufacturing in Canada of rifles, machine guns, mortars and guns of all descriptions?


James Layton Ralston: About eighty-five per cent of small arms; that includes rifles, Bren guns and Stens.


Howard Charles Green: Have we not now reached
the stage where our reserve army can be given complete equipment, including mechanical equipment? The minister praised the reserve army very highly the other day when he was making his statement, and I should like to join with him in paying tribute to them. They have done remarkably good work, but I think the time has come when they' should get complete equipment, and I would ask the minister whether it is not possible for us to give them that equipment now. When the minister was speaking the other day' he hinted that the reserve army were to be given additional responsibilities, particularly' in the coastal areas, and he went on to say'

that this would apply especially' to infantry and anti-tank units. Is the time coming when Canada will have to depend upon the reserve army for the defence of her shores? If that is the plan, I suggest that we cannot give them complete equipment too soon. I should like also to have the minister make a statement with regard to the equipment of the Pacific Coast Rangers, for example. I do not believe they have received full equipment yet, nor have they been issued uniforms. When can they' expect to get this equipment and these uniforms?


James Layton Ralston: I have not in mind exactly (he scale of equipment of the Pacific Coast Rangers, but I will look into that. In reference to their uniforms, I have a definite recollection of having authorized a special water-repellent uniform for them, I think only the week before last. I believe two uniforms per man are to be issued, one being water-repellent.	'


Howard Charles Green: Is that for all of them?


James Layton Ralston: I have it in mind that
the authorization was for 15,000 suits in all. With regard to equipment for the reserve army, it goes without saying that we will provide equipment just as quickly as possible. As my hon. friend knows, our equipment is not simply for the Canadian forces; it is for the allies as well. However, this year we expect to do considerably better than we have been able to do so far in connection with the equipment for the reserve army, in things like transport, carriers and matters of that sort. We have had some improvement already; as my hon. friend knows, we have formed pools in the different districts in order that units might have sufficient equipment to carry on their training, and I know they have responded well. I think they have shown a great deal of consideration in view of the fact that we have been short, but every bit of equipment is being used, I can assure myr hon. friend, and we do plan to give the reserve army more equipment; I have just consulted my officer who has that matter in mind. I indicated exactly what I had in mind when I said that we were looking forward to giving the reserve army more responsibility in defence roles, particularly in connection with antiaircraft work, and that will mean more equipment will be issued to them.


Howard Charles Green: Is there a plan that eventually they are to be relied upon to defend our shores?

War Appropriation-Army


James Layton Ralston: That just depends upon
events; we cannot tell. It depends upon how long the war lasts, and what are the calls upon us. It is planned that they shall be ready to
do so.


Gordon Graydon: 
James Layton Ralston: We are not up to establishment in Bren guns for the reserve army.


Gordon Graydon: Does the minister expect to have the supply of Bren guns for the reserve army brought up to establishment in the very near future?


James Layton Ralston: It depends upon activities overseas, as my hon. friend can understand. We are doing everything possible to bring the Bren guns for the reserve army up to establishment, but as my hon. friend knows, we will send them overseas first.


Mr. FULFORD:: Speaking as a member of the reserve army, I must say that I have been astounded at the amount of equipment the reserve army now has, and also at the vast improvement in the curriculum. In our own unit, which is a small one, we are equipped with Bren guns, Sten guns-a type of Thompson sub-machine gun-we are fully equipped with rifles; we have a Boys anti-tank gun, and we have small trucks. Granted we have not some of the heavier equipment, but I do not expect that the reserve army will get that until such time as it is called out for active service. I refer to such things as the Bofors anti-aircraft gun, Bren carriers and the smaller tanks. There is one suggestion, however, that I should like to offer. We have been shown training moving pictures twice a week. Unfortunately by the time we receive these pictures they are quite out of date; in fact some of .the tactics we are shown are obsolete. I understand that in the United States all army units are given the very latest pictures as soon as they come out, and I would ask the minister to give serious consideration to whether it would not be possible to give us more modem moving pictures on tactical problems.


James Layton Ralston: The provision of additional training films is not only receiving consideration but having active attention.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: I should like to have the minister elaborate a little more
fully on the role he expects the reserve army to play. I think members of the reserve army as well as members of this house generally would be interested in knowing whether there is some part they can play, as they are hoping they will have a part to play as the war progresses. It seems to me that if at some not far distant date they are to be assigned the responsibility of protecting the shores of Canada, several things will have to be done. If all the general service personnel in Canada should be sent overseas, and if the government should decide to send overseas the-home defence personnel as well, the entire defence of Canada's shores would be left in the hands of the reserve army. If that is in contemplation, I think the department should take into consideration now extending the training of the defence units. Fifteen days at camp is a very small amount of training. Of course units stationed in the cities train two or three nights a week and very often carry out schemes over week-ends. In the case of dispersed units, however, a very limited amount of training is carried on; it is limited by weather conditions, by geography, by the difficulty of procuring equipment and places to meet. As I suggested to the minister last year, in the case of dispersed units particularly, some consideration might be given to having thirty days training instead of fifteen, or having fifteen days training in the summer time and another fifteen days training in barracks during the winter. Dispersed units are usually located in agricultural areas, and many men can leave the farms much more easily in the winter time than during the summer, when there is haying, harvesting and so on to look after. If these men are to be given the responsibility of playing an important part in Canada's defence, some of them will have to be given a great deal more training than they are given now. They have a fairly good basic training, but they have had no opportunity at all to handle such things as mortars and some of the more specialized weapons. Some training ought to be given if the minister has in mind that they are to play some important defence role in the near future.
The second matter, that of equipment, was mentioned by the hon. member for Vancouver South. As I said, to-day our equipment is immeasurably better than it was, but I am surprised to hear the minister say, and I know it must be true, that there is a scarcity of Bren guns. The other day when some one asked the Minister of Munitions and Supply

War Appropriation-Army

why two thousand men were being laid off at the John Inglis plant in Toronto, he replied that they were levelling off their production, It seems to me that there should be no levelling off of production until every reserve unit in Canada has sufficient small arms to make themselves an effective fighting force in the event of an invasion of Canada. I recognize that what the minister says is true, that the last units to get weapons would be the reserve force. The first is the general service personnel, then the home defence personnel, and then the last is naturally the reserve force. But they ought to get the necessary weapons long before we start to discuss levelling off of production in a small arms plant.


Mr. HOWE:: May I interject a remark at this stage? I did not say that we are levelling off the production of Bren guns; I do not think I have mentioned Bren guns. We are dropping two other guns which are now being made at the Inglis plant, but we are still increasing the production of Bren guns and probably will do so for some time.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I am glad the minister says that there is to be no levelling off of production of Bren guns. The principal production at the John Inglis plant has been the Bren gun. I do not think there should be any levelling off of production of the Boys anti-tank rifle. The reserve units could certainly use many of these rifles, because I know of only a few men in the reserve forces who have fired them. I would suggest to the minister that until the reserve forces have been completely equipped, there should be no change in the production schedule of Canada. I have a couple of questions I should like to ask the minister, but I do not know whether he will want to answer them. The first is with reference to mortars. The minister will know from having read the several books that have been written on Dieppe, such as "Dress Rehearsal" by Reynolds and "Combined Operations" by Saunders, that the value of the mortar as an infantry weapon has increased tremendously as a result of the Dieppe operation. I understand that the Germans have perfected the technique of the mortar and are now using a four-inch mortar which throws a twenty-five pound bomb as compared with a three-inch mortar throwing a ten-pound bomb with which our infantry is equipped. I am not asking the minister to tell us what the department is doing, but I am sure the committee would like some assurance from him as to the possibility of a more adequate use of the trench mortar.

Has the minister received any reports on the performance of small arms as a result of the Dieppe operation? I have in mind particularly the Sten sub-machine gun. A number of men who came back from Dieppe, with whom I have talked and who were equipped with Sten sub-machine guns, all gave the same report. As the minister knows, there are parts of the Sten sub-machine gun which are quite exposed, and when it is dropped in sand it has a tendency to become plugged. This .is not true of the Reising gun, which is well closed in. You can drop it anywhere, pick it up again and use it. Many of these men found that the Sten sub-machine gun-I know this is an excellent gun on the range because I have fired it many times-had a tendency to jam in actual battle conditions where it was necessary for men to throw themselves down on the sand.


James Layton Ralston: With reference to the mortar I know my hon. friend will not expect me to say more than that the matter to which he has referred has been in the minds and has had the consideration of the weapon development people of all the allied nations, and none more so than our own army technical development board. When I was speaking the other day I mentioned a development which might have something to do with it. I can assure my hon. friend that every step is being taken to see that our weapons are second to none, and certain matters have been worked out already in that respect.
With reference to the Sten gun I think this weapon has had perhaps as severe trials as any gun could have during the last six months. I am speaking of the Canadian Sten particularly. We have watched with great interest the reports which have come in, and as a result of these reports we are increasing the production of the Canadian Sten gun. I think it will be found to stand up all right. The Reising gun has not had a test under battle conditions, nor has it been tested under conditions which would approximate those of battle, but the Sten gun has. We are advised that the Canadian Sten gun is a gun which our troops overseas can use in connection with any activities which may take place. As I say, as a result of the reports, which have been made we are increasing the production.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Could the minister clarify the role of the reserve army? I know the minister has probably already given a statement in this regard, but I do not think he has done so during this debate. I know that everywhere the minister goes he is asked to describe the role of the reserve army. This

War Appropriation-Army
force can be shown to have a definite role, but the country is not sure. There is a great deal of criticism, perhaps misguided and erroneous, about the functions of the reserve army. Criticism is levelled against the reserve army as being the last line of defence in Canada. Criticism is levelled against the reserve army as being an expensive method of recruiting. Criticism is also levelled against it as being a morale building force.
There is probably a good answer to all, these criticisms. I suggest that instead of going ahead with posters and other forms of advertising in an effort to have men join the reserve army, the minister should have published a small booklet outlining the role of the reserve army and answering all these questions. Many people criticize the reserve army because they do not know the real facts. I know in the Toronto district there was some difficulty in getting sufficient recruits for the reserve army. I do not know how successful the last recruiting drive was, but at one time it dragged considerably. In fairness to the reserve army some definite and concrete statement should be made as to its functions. Men are giving their time freely and with a great deal of keenness, and the reserve army is doing a great deal of good among the young men of sixteen and seventeen. They are learning about the army, getting instructions and the rudiments of discipline, being taught their way about, if nothing else. A lot can be said for it. I do not think it has been said. There is a great deal of groping in the dark as to the functions of the reserve army, and I suggest that the minister either make a statement at his convenience or else publish a small booklet setting forth clearly all the functions of the reserve army.


James Layton Ralston: I took pains when I made my statement to the committee on May 18 to try to do exactly what my hon. friend ha3 just suggested, and what I said will be found at pages 2771-72 of Hansard. No one values more than I do the opportunity not only to pay tribute to the reserve army but to indicate my belief in its usefulness. I emphasized then that the reserve army is, of course, a reserve army, but that its password must be preparedness; that is to say, to be ready. That is what the reserve army is for.
The functions which the reserve army fulfils are, I think, fairly definite. There is, first, the function of local or community defence and, second, the possible function of general defence. In addition to that, it does act as a body which impresses the citizens of Canada with the idea that this war is not won yet; that we cannot wait until the hun is on our
72537-202J
doorstep before we get ready to meet him. Members of the reserve army set a fine example by recognizing not only the opportunity but the obligation of Canadian citizens to devote some of their spare time and some of their comfort-and time and comfort are two solid commodities that are generally appreciated-to preparing themselves for an eventuality which may come. Everybody hopes it will not. Everybody hopes there will not be murders committed; yet no one suggests that we should not have a police force. Everybody hopes there will not be fires; but no one suggests that we should not have firefighters. They stand prepared, and the reserve army is for that very purpose.
I sympathize with the men of the reserve army and appreciate the steadfastness they are showing, day after day andi night after night, working at their bench or in their office and, when the day's work is done, going out and drilling along with the boys and young men in order to be ready. I say they are doing a fine job for Canada. We must not forget that only six months ago did the tide apparently begin to turn. It was only six months ago that the British and United States forces landed in North Africa. Up to that time it was a pretty blue prospect. We are not out of the woods yet by any means, and there may be an opportunity and a necessity for the reserve army. That is exactly why we are taking all this time and spending all this money to assist them to be prepared. The pay and allowances are a fleabite so far as the individuals are concerned, but we are providing the reserve army with a lot of equipment. Some of that equipment can be made use of in other places; at the same time we are providing a reasonable amount in order that men may be trained. I have not been at a reserve army camp but, from what I have learned, the enthusiasm shown at these camps has been outstanding, even though the men who give their time to go may not see an opportunity to serve immediately ahead. They are there to get ready and to be ready. As I said the other day, I think the country owes them a great debt of gratitude and real appreciation for the way they have stood by Canada at this particular time. I do not know what more I can say than that. The same request has come to me from other quarters as came from my hon. friend to-night that I should go across Canada and speak to the reserve army. I wish I could, as I have said repeatedly to them, but it has often been charged that the minister goes into too many things. The best I can do is to make to the reserve army when I see them the kind of statement I have made to-night.
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When we appointed Major-General Browne director-general of the reserve army, it was not just a gesture. We believe that the reserve army deserved encouragement and the sort of supervision he can give. I believe his appointment has been amply justified by the results shown across Canada. It is quite possible that the reserve army units in military district No. 2 may feel that there is little chance of activity, but it is a great satisfaction to them, as I know from, what I see when I visit them, that they are ready if the opportunity for action does come, and I have not any doubt, seeing them as I did, led by veterans of the great war, that they would give a good account of themselves. I saw businessmen in all walks of life doing their part in the reserve army along with the young chaps to see to it that the traditions of the army are upheld, and seeing them I have felt that Canada had a reserve force which could be depended upon should the need arise. It is not a glamorous role, I know. They do not expect a glamorous role. All they want is to feel in their hearts the satisfaction of knowing that they are doing their duty, that the people of this country appreciate what they are doing and that their jolb is something worth while. That is what I have tried to tell them. That is what I honestly believe myself. The reserve army gives the men two chances to serve, a chance to serve at their ordinary vocation or business in the daytime and a chance after hours, to prepare to serve as soldiers to prevent homes and business from being swept away if the threat should come. Their readiness to serve is a challenge to any citizen of this dominion.


John George Diefenbaker: I should like to ask a question of the minister arising out of a statement he made some time ago. If I understood him aright, he said that there would be an increase in Sten machine-gun production this year. Recently there has been considerable reference in' United States papers to a reshuffling of war production in Canada. Only the other day there was a dispatch from Washington by a Canadian Press writer who said:
As seen from here, Canada may be forced to make drastic changes in the next two or three months, switching factories to new production, stopping the production of some war materials, particularly certain ground equipment and, generally, reshuffling her whole industrial machine built up since the start of the war.
This article is dated Washington, May 7, and goes on to say:
Instead of guns and shells, it may be ships, naval and cargo-carrying. The total effort will be the same, the change coming in emphasis.

Reference has been made by some hon. members who have preceded me to the necessity of providing for the reserve army still more supplies, such as munitions, machine guns and the like. Up to the present one of the main reasons why these units were unable to be supplied with the necessary munitions and equipment was the fact that requirements in Britain and in other parts of the world and in the Canadian army overseas made it impossible to supply the units in Canada. The minister to-night has made it very clear-I think he has uttered a warning to the people of Canada-in discussing the possible role of the reserve army, that it is within the realm of possibility that the men of the reserve army may have to be used for the defence of Canada, if I understood him aright. That being so the reserve army should be fully equipped. As I have already pointed out, during the past few weeks the press of the United States and, in a lesser degree, of Canada have given great attention to the fact that, in a reshuffle of production, great changes will take place in the war factories of Canada. I ask the minister if it is a fact that there is on hand to-day such an excess of rifles, machine guns, mortars and the like as to justify reduction in production of any of these lines at this time. The minister has mentioned that there will be an increase in Sten gun production, but I would ask him, knowing there must be consultation with him in the determination of a matter such as this, whether it is intended during the next six or eight months, in any event from now until the end of the year, to cancel the further production of Boys anti-tank rifles, to reduce Bren gun production by approximately sixty per cent, as well as to drop the production of 3-7 anti-aircraft guns and mountings. There has been a great deal of reference in the press to this sort of thing. If it is correct, my submission is that it is not justifiable at this time, provided that the reserve army and the other units in Canada have not, as they have not at the present time, full equipment. I think it would be a fine idea if the minister could give a statement, circumscribed as it must necessarily be by consideration of safety, as to what changes in the matter of gun production and the like have been decided upon and how these changes will be effected during the next few months.


James Layton Ralston: I may say to my hon.
friend that, with the limitation which he imposes, and which is quite justified, I could not possibly make any statement at all. I mean that I am circumscribed by the bounds

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of security, and I do not think my hon. friend proposes to have me declare to the world in what lines we shall restrict production, and in what lines we shall increase production of munitions of war. I do not quite understand my hon. friend, but if I have correctly stated what he is asking, my reply is that I cannot give him a statement. Production will be regulated in accordance with need and with the requirement of production facilities for other things.


John George Diefenbaker: Can the minister assure us that there will be no reduction until the reserve army is equipped?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot give that assurance. There may be some demand which is very much more vital and which may therefore come first.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Before the
minister leaves that point, may I draw his attention to what I think is a marked inconsistency with reference to government policy. As the hon. member for Lake Centre is emphasizing the minister admits to-night, what most of us know, that the reserve army has not been fully equipped with all the weapons it would need in the event of having to take part in repelling an invasion.


James Layton Ralston: That is to say, all the reserve army are not fully equipped. My hon. friend must remember that there are a good many weapons available to the reserve army.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: That is true, but that statement and that fact stand in very bad contrast with, for instance, the statement which is now reported in the press from the Minister of Munitions and Supply. He is reported from Washington as saying that we are now to be able to turn our production into producing more consumer goods. There is a marked inconsistency between what the Minister of Munitions and Supply says, that we are to be able to turn our productive resources to the manufacture of consumer goods, and the admission of the Minister of National Defence that we have not yet sufficient of the weapons essential for the use of the reserve army to equip them adequately with what they would need to take part in a defensive operation.	.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Since my name has been mentioned, perhaps my hon. friend will read the dispatch. I have not seen it. Certainly I made no such statement.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry?


Howard Charles Green: Before item No. 8 carries, will the minister tell us what provision, if any, has been made to supply the troops in
Canada with transport planes for training? We asked that question last year. Apparently at that time Canada had no transport planes at all, so that there was no means of transporting our troops by air. I should like to know whether that is still the position.
For some reason or another, despite the fact that Canadians are a very progressive people, we have not been very progressive in our training methods during this war. It came out last year that we were leaving all our advanced training to be done in Great Britain, just as we did in the war of 1914-18; but as a result of the Hong Kong inquiry and of the condition of our troops when sent to Hong Kong some change was made, and Canada then took up commando training. We have only recently been doing paratroop training. We had to wait until the United States came into the war before we started this training, and then we had to send our troops to the United States to be trained. Now, I think, we have one battalion back here in Canada. We have been very dilatory in putting into effect the most modern types of training for our men. I would ask the minister why it is that Canada has been so long in getting the transport planes and in taking any steps to train air-borne divisions. Some years ago the Germans were doing that, training their men in gliding, and they took Crete by the use of troops of that type. There would seem to be no reason why Canada could not specialize in carrying troops by air and in training airborne divisions. We have the space; it is much easier to train troops here for that kind of warfare than it is in Great Britain. I should like to know whether we have taken any steps yet in that direction.


James Layton Ralston: I can only say to my hon. friend that in order to train air-borne troops, transport planes are required.


Howard Charles Green: Why have we not got them?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend had better ask some of the allies why they have not got them on the active fronts. Does my hon. friend think they grow on trees?


Howard Charles Green: They certainly do not grow on trees around here.


James Layton Ralston: And they do not grow on trees anywhere else, either. My hon. friend just rises in his place and asks the question, as though somebody had been negligent in not having asked for transport planes, as though one could get them off a shelf. I think my hon. friend knows without my saying it that transport aircraft is not yet in
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such tremendous production that we can get transport planes for training just at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: Does the minister say it is impossible for Canada to get any transport planes for training troops? We had a big transport plane over Ottawa last week, and the Americans have had them. I submit to the committee that if the defence department wanted to train troops in that way, wanted to get some transport planes for training troops, they could get them; and if we could carry more troops by air, if we had air-borne brigades or divisions, we should probably need far fewer men to defend Canada. I am quite serious about this matter. I do not understand why Canada should not be up to date with regard to the training of troops for transport by air.


James Layton Ralston: I do not want to be short with my hon. friend, but when he makes a statement like that, that the Department of National Defence, had they wanted to, could have had transport planes and could train air-borne divisions, I only say to him, respectfully, but very firmly, that he does not know what he is talking about.


Howard Charles Green: The Minister of Munitions and Supply is here. Between them, do the ministers say that Canada cannot get transport planes for the training of our army?


James Layton Ralston: I am saying that at the present time Canada is not in a position to demand transport planes, in view of the need for transport planes in active theatres.


Howard Charles Green: Probably if we had had a
few paratroops at Dieppe we would not have had such casualties.


James Layton Ralston: If we had had my hon.
friend at Dieppe I have no doubt it would all have gone according to the book.


Howard Charles Green: It could not have been
much worse. Have our troops in Great Britain been given an opportunity of being trained in this regard?


James Layton Ralston: Our troops in Great
Britain have taken every opportunity to train in connection with aircraft cooperation and airborne activities in so far as the equipment was available.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On item* 9-M.T. vehicles: trucks, tractors, trailers, tanks, A.F.Vs. and repair parts.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Is
all this equipment delivered and in actual
(Mr. Ralston.]
operation? I am referring to the $272,000,000 worth. Do I understand that it has all been delivered, none of it being on the sidings in Canada?


James Layton Ralston: There is certainly some
of it, not on the sidings but on the docks in Canada.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
mean, in the packing cases?


James Layton Ralston: Certainly. There is some on the docks. It is being shipped all the time.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I do
not mean on the docks, but in different places like Belleville, Trenton and so on.


James Layton Ralston: It will have to be in stores, too, until shipping comes along. We cannot put it all on the docks. It is being delivered as shipping is available and whenever the need arises. It is all ready for use.


Douglas King Hazen: Was all this money spent
in Canada last year, and will it all be spent here this year, or was part of it spent outside? If so, how much?
Mr.'RALSTON:	In connection with some
of this equipment, components are purchased in the United States. Some heavy motor transports are purchased in the United States, but the great bulk of it, apart from the money for components, is spent in Canada.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Some of this equipment has been on* the dumps or sidings for two years or more. Is that included in this amount?


James Layton Ralston: So far as equipment for
Canada is concerned-the material that is covered by this item*-there is a very small proportion of it. that is on the dumps, to use my hon. friend's expression, or the sidings, and such as there is, is awaiting shipment.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: That is what I am trying to find out.


James Arthur Ross: This seems to* be
$100,000,000 more than last year's. How is it accounted for?


James Layton Ralston: It is accounted for in this way. The money was not all spent last year owing to the fact that reserves were not used up, there being no activity, and what is put in this year is to provide reserves and to provide against casualties. The expenditure last year would have been almost the amount shown for this year had there been activity. Since (here was no activity, the reserves were not used up and the money was not required, so that only $270,000,000 was spent.

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James Arthur Ross: And that includes
equipment for the army overseas?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
On item 10-Operating cost of mechanical transport, fuel maintenance, etc. (not including repair parts)1.
Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister
a question arising out of one part of the discussion that took place the other evening, either on this item or on some other comparable item, in connection with the war appropriation bill while it was in committee last year. I refer to the economies which were to be instituted by the minister. I believe it was the Minister of National Defence who undertook to see that certain economies were put into practice in connection with the use of mechanical vehicles such as jeeps and other mechanical transport using gasoline. The point was raised in the committee that there was some thought in the public mind that there was perhaps a rather reckless use of gasoline in certain instances. Naturally that was something that would creep in, but the minister indicated that the department was prepared to institute a campaign of economy in the use of gasoline, in view of the shortage generally with which we were faced. What plans has he put into effect to bring about those economies?


James Layton Ralston: All I can say is that the
strictest check is kept on cars going out, the routes to be followed, the mileage to be covered and the gasoline to be used. Strictness is observed with regard to the use of cars in an endeavour to avoid two trips where one-will do. I myself sometimes observe that [DOT] this is not being carried out. I see a car going without a full load. Rut I know the quartermaster-general is particularly strong on this and has checked1 a good many times the use of cars for any purpose which is not strictly a service purpose, and even the use of a service car by service personnel when that use could have been obviated. I cannot tell of any system except rigid vigilance in an endeavour to see that the use of gasoline is curtailed in every way possible. In connection with staff cars and cars of that kind, there has been a marked reduction in the use of them since the gasoline shortage has become acute, and everyone is concerned to conserve gasoline. I cannot give my hon. friend any system which has been put into effect apart from that.


Gordon Graydon: Has there been a reduction in the number of ordinary automobiles used by the army here, outside training or service generally?


James Layton Ralston: The transport officer is
not here, but I do not know of any number. In some places cars have been cut down or taken off the establishment altogether. I cannot say about Ottawa.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: How are the service stations selected for supplying gasoline and oil for the different army vehicles that pass through the various cities, towns, and villages? I ask that question because 1 know that in some instances army vehicles go two miles or so out of their way in order to get gasoline from some particular service station, and they pass half a dozen others on their way.


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid I shall have to guess at that in the absence of the transport officer, but gasoline is bought by contract from different companies and is supplied at their stations. The service station is not selected; it is supplied by contract, and they go to the nearest station of that particular company to fill up, when they cannot be served at our transport supply station. That is my idea of what the practice is.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: My understanding is that, first of all, tenders are submitted by these companies. It is by tender system, is it?


James Layton Ralston: The Department of
Munitions and Supply buys it for us.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: If an army truck were going to Kingston, it could stop at one of the supply depots of that company.


James Layton Ralston: I think so, when necessary. Ordinarily, they would first stop at military supply depots, if available.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: It would not be told, "You must go to No. 1 gasoline station, and must not go to No. 3 or No. 4"?


James Layton Ralston: It could go to any station of the company. Remember, I am speculating when I make that answer, because I have no transport officer with me. Perhaps I had better get the information accurately for the hon. member, because I do not wish to put on record something which is only a pure guess.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I
should be glad if the minister would do that.
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James Layton Ralston: I wish to put on record one paragraph of an order which has been brought to my attention. Paragraph 17 of routine order 1992 is as follows:
As a further measure of conserving tires and gasoline, all vehicles, except those at advanced training centres and centralized schools of instruction and vehicles required for urgent operational purposes, will be immobilized two full days each week. Neither of these two days will be a Sunday. On these days only the minimum number of administrative vehicles as are necessary to carry on proper routine will be allowed to operate and the drivers of such vehicles will be provided with permits signed by their commanding officer.
That is, two gasless days for these particular establishments. If I remember correctly, they have a gasless day in England as well.
' Mr. ADAMSON: Does the minister say, "not advanced training centres"? Does it not include advanced training centres?


James Layton Ralston: It states:
. . . except those at advanced training centres and centralized schools of instruction and vehicles required for urgent operational purposes. ...


Agar Rodney Adamson: It includes everything in England.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: When the minister is getting information regarding the supply of gasoline to army vehicles, will he tell us what companies have these contracts, and how much has been given to each company.
While I am on my feet I should like to place on record this paragraph appearing in the Winnipeg Free Press of May 29, 1943, under a Washington date line of May 28:
Howe Reviews Production
Canadian arms and military equipment production has reached such a stage of output that there can now be some easing up on restricted production of civilian equipment, according to Hon. C. D. Howe, Canadian Minister of Munitions and Supply, in Washington to-day. Specifically mentioned by Mr. Howe as items which may be supplied now in larger degree for civilian use are farm machinery, railway rails, textiles and repair parts for power plants.
I point out to the minister that, according to the report, the impression was given to the public that we have now reached peak production in the output of war materials, and that it would be possible to turn Canada's production machinery to producing consumer goods. I merely point out that this is rather out of harmony with the statement of the Minister of National Defence.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

On item 11-Sundries, including printing, stationery, telephones, telegrams and other costs not included in above items.
Gordon Graydon: This is a sufficiently important item to warrant a break-down. When the minister is giving the break-down, would he tell the committee if the item with respect to printing covers any of the advertising for the reserve army, or recruiting generally?


James Layton Ralston: I have not a break-down showing the amounts for telegrams and telephones. Printing and stationery stands at $9,400,000; training equipment, not provided elsewhere, $400,000; and sundries, $4,800,000.
The increase in printing and stationery is due to the fact that, with the increased personnel in the United Kingdom the expenditures for printing and stationery, telephone and telegrams has risen more than proportionately because United Kingdom costs are higher than in Canada. The increase is something like $5,000,000.


Gordon Graydon: Will the minister give
the committee the costs of telephonic and telegraphic communications?


James Layton Ralston: I thought an order for a return had been passed recently with respect to telephones.


Gordon Graydon: And telegrams?


James Layton Ralston: I should like to be heard on it when it comes up.


James Arthur Ross: There was a return tabled a few days ago in answer to a question standing in my name. This is the only item which shows a reduction in the total amount. Would the minister tell the committee whether his department has private lines, like the Department of Munitions and Supply, or whether the business is done through the various commercial telephone companies?


James Layton Ralston: We have no private telephone lines. All the business is done through the commercial companies. Of course, as the hon. member knows, we have teletype circuits.


Howard Charles Green: This item looks as though it includes a good deal of the red tape.


James Layton Ralston: Not if it refers to telephones and telegrams.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister say
whether there has been any reduction in the paper war in the last year?


James Layton Ralston: I have not here the text of a directive, as it is called-the modem term-which was issued, and sent out in simple language; nor have I mentioned the

War Appropriation-Army
lectures which have been delivered to the staff, to the minister and to everybody, with regard to the amount of paper used. I think it is reduced to some extent. I am not enthusiastic about the results, but at the same time we keep on trying. The difficulty is that so many people have to see and have to know about what is going on that it means passing from one to another. The tendency to put on another memorandum, instead of just saying, "Noted and concurred in", is very great. The tendency is for one official to write a memorandum and another to write a memorandum repeating the previous officer's memorandum. We have cut out all salutations, and things of that kind, and we make our memoranda as terse and to the point as possible.


Howard Charles Green: By the time the war is over, the experimental farm will be full of records buildings.


James Layton Ralston: These memoranda will not be on the records.


Mr. GRAHAM:: I was interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Leedstrespect-ing moving pictures, and the work done through that medium in the training syllabus. Would the minister make a statement on what assistance is being received from moving pictures and, generally speaking, what use they are? I am told great use can be made of moving pictures, particularly in connection with training in the reserve army.


James Layton Ralston: I would have to be a Hollywood director to give my hon. friend a description of the films. I have not seen many of them, but I do remember one which impressed itself upon my mind, namely, that having to do with the Boys anti-tank rifle. It was a realistic representation of the rifle, all its parts, and the way in which it is operated. The film carried an excellent running commentary. One need only see it for about ten minutes, and it seemed to me he would have the operations of the rifle fixed in his mind better than he could in any other way.
I have not any memorandum before me with regard to training films. I have, however, taken an interest in the matter myself, and I believe it was only the day before yesterday that I discussed this matter with the chief of the general staff. I remember that there were something like a thousand copies of different films being circulated, and we have a technical man trained in that work attending not only to the possibilities of making the films but also that what is just as important, namely, the distribution of them. There is
the greatest tendency, I find, in connection with training films to have them tucked away somewhere in a pigeon-hole, or to have them kept at one training centre instead of being passed on somewhere else. That sounds like a very simple sort of problem with which to deal, but it is not quite so simple with the number of training centres we have and the number of different films with which we have to deal. Films are being made now; the national film board is helping us a great deal in that respect, and we have had some commercial films as well. On the whole, I think great strides are being made in that particular method of training.


Howard Charles Green: Could they be used) at all in the training of the school cadets?


James Layton Ralston: They certainly could.


James Lester Douglas: Yesterday the minister said he would give me the division of the money spent on transportation as between the different railways. I wonder if, when the minister gives that information, he could give me the same information in regard to telegrams and telegraph service, as between the two companies.


James Layton Ralston: I do not think we have the information in regard to telegrams and telegraph service. The break-down as between the two railways for the fiscal year 1942-43 was as follows, and if I may I will lump the figures: passenger, freight, express and meal services, Canadian National Railways, $12,384,042.90, or 51-40 per cent; Canadian Pacific Railway, $11,710,31425, or 48-60 per cent.


Douglas King Hazen: A day or two ago I asked the minister one or two questions about the directorate of public relations, and he said he would make a note of it. I do not know whether he is in a position to give the information now, but, if not, I should like to know when I may expect it.


James Layton Ralston: Does my hon. friend want it on this discussion?


Douglas King Hazen: No, not particularly.


James Layton Ralston: As a matter of fact it is almost ready. Would my hon. friend accept it as an order for a return?


Douglas King Hazen: No; I should like it answered here.


James Layton Ralston: Then my hon. friend wants it on this discussion?


Douglas King Hazen: Yes, but not necessarily right away.

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James Layton Ralston: I am anxious to get these items through, if I can. Could I give the information on the estimates of my colleague the Minister of National Defence for Air?


Douglas King Hazen: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
B-Sundry Services
Departmental administration	 $ 1,526,405
Dependents' allowance board		657,700
Internment operations	 8,430,895
Dependents supplementary grants
fund	 1,285,000
Inspection board of the United Kingdom and Canada	 10,600,000
Total	 $22,500,000
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Could we take these one at a time? After all, some of these are fairly important items.


James Layton Ralston: Certainly.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I have not a great many questions, but I think several hon. members have one or two to ask.
Departmental administration, $1,526,405.


Howard Charles Green: This afternoon the minister promised to make a statement in regard to this plan for reclaiming men for the army.


James Layton Ralston: I intended to do that while the director-general of medical services was here, but I forgot.


Howard Charles Green: And also the cost of food
and supplies per man per year.


James Layton Ralston: Could I give my hon.
friend that information on the estimates of my colleague?


Howard Charles Green: The minister will answer
both these question then?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: There was one other question, having, to do with the enlistment of aliens in the army. A return was tabled on March 8 which showed that under the provisions drawn up a few months ago a total of 751 aliens had been called, but apparently only three had been chosen; at any rate up to that time only three had managed to get into the army. Could the minister tell us the position to-day with regard to the taking of aliens into the army? Over a year ago we were told that they were all to be called up; yet very little action has been taken. What is the situation at the present time?


James Layton Ralston: A set of rules has just
been approved with regard to both the enlistment and the calling up of aliens. I would not undertake to give them from memory,
[Mr. Hazen.)
so that I think I had better answer that question at the same time as I give the other information.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister tell us
how many aliens actually have got as far as the army?


James Layton Ralston: No; I cannot.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister not get that information?


James Layton Ralston: Certainly.


Howard Charles Green: The minister will give that at the same time?


James Layton Ralston: Certainly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dependents' allowance board, $657,700.
Item agreed to.
Internment operations, $8,430,895.
Mr. GILLIS:: I think the minister should
make a statement for the purpose of clarifying what was said the other day in this house by the (hon. member for Broadview, to the effect that Ontario universities were full of enemy aliens and that the Department of National Defence was supplying them with uniforms. During the Easter recess, due to considerable propaganda carried on in the press, at several meetings I attended I met quite hostile audiences on that very point. They wanted to know if it was the policy of the government indiscriminately to release enemy aliens in this country and give them the privilege of attending universities while our own boys were being called from the universities and relegated to the armed forces. Having had some little experience in Ontario last summer, I had some knowledge of the situation. My conception of the matter is that' instead of being called enemy aliens, these boys should be classified as refugees from Hitler and the totalitarian countries. However, coming from me that is not official, and I think under this item the minister should make some statement as to the status of these men, why they were interned and what are the regulations with respect to their release. I think this has been a subject of controversy right across the country, and the statement made by the hon. member for Broadview a few days ago added fuel to the fire. Therefore I think a clarifying statement by the minister would be in order.


James Layton Ralston: This matter was the subject of a return brought down in response to a question asked .by the hon. member for Carleton. The persons to whom the hon.

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member for Broadview referred were eighteen students who had lived in England for several years before being sent to Canada in July, 1940; I think some of them were undergraduates of Oxford or Cambridge. They came to Canada in a general round-up of aliens in the United Kingdom in 1940. In order to make sure of catching the few aliens whom it might prove unsafe to have at large, practically all aliens from Germany and Austria were corralled and sent to Canada from the United Kingdom. When time permitted, their cases were investigated, and many were found conclusively to be harmless. The home office sent a representative, Mr. Paterson, out here in November, 1940, and he checked all the records. Then his duties were assumed' by Lieutenant-Colonel Fordham, and Mr. Paterson returned. Then it was decided after an investigation of the cases in conjunction with the home office- we were really holding them as a result of the home office having sent them to us-that it would be better to allow these undergraduates to continue with their studies in Canada .rather than- to waste valuable years behind barbed wire. The original .plan was to permit one hundred of them to go to Canadian universities. Their records were closely scanned by the home office, the commissioner of refugee camps, the director of immigration and their respective staffs. Each individual's history was thus scrutinized by three sets of officials.
A responsible sponsor, residing in Canada, came forward for every student released for the purpose of attending a Canadian university. The sponsor had to be a reputable citizen possessed of assets, who would undertake to guarantee the cost of maintenance and the tuition fees of a student. This was to prevent a student from becoming a public charge. The sponsors were usually found through the agencies of a voluntary organization known as the central committee for interned refugees. Every sponsor had to meet with the approval of Mr. Blair, director of immigration.
This plan was put into effect in the late summer of 1941 and has worked successfully. The students involved have given neither the commissioner of refugee camps nor the director of immigration any trouble at all, and in most instances have done exceedingly well in their studies. There are two students in the school of law, university of Toronto, who are said by their professor to be two of the most brilliant he has ever had. All are hard working. There are released refugees at ten universities in Canada, including Toronto university, and all have given the utmost satisfaction. There is one exception, because a case came to my attention the other day where a student had
72537-203J
not given the utmost satisfaction and the necessary action is being taken. That is the only case I have had come before me.


Gordon Graydon: What does the minister mean by not having given utmost satisfaction?


James Layton Ralston: His conduct was entirely unsatisfactory; there was nothing in the way of subversive tendencies. His character was not of the best. Some of these men have brothers and other close relatives serving in the British army and navy. That is the statement. I have received strong letters, particularly from British Columbia, about this matter. There were considerable protests over the episode. I think that is what my hon. friend has in mind.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There is still a question in the people's minds which the minister has not answered. The argument they advance from time to time is a fairly logical one. They contend that these people must be opposed to the Hitler regime, or they would not be released. If they are opposed to the Hitler regime, then they should be making some contribution toward defeating Hitler. We require our own young men to leave their educational pursuits or whatever else they are doing in order to make some contribution, either in the armed services, on the farm, in our munitions factories or wherever else they may be placed. Is there not the same obligation devolving upon these young men? Can they be placed in the armed forces? If not, the people should be told why. If they can, why are they not there? Is there something more useful that they can do? Can they be used on the farms? These are the questions that are being put, and they are the questions contained in a number of letters I have received. Are these 230 young men in our universities scientists who it is felt will be able, when they complete their courses, to make some contribution as a result of the education they may receive? Or are they merely being allowed to finish their education because there is no other way in which they can render a service to the common cause?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Have any of them offered to enlist in the army?


James Layton Ralston: I have not heard of any.


Mr. BOUCHER:: The hon. member for
Weyburn has expressed one viewpoint in this connection, but there is another angle to this matter. Our own boys have been limited in the education they may receive or in other activities and have been forced to undertake war duties, whether it be in the armed forces, in industry, in private business or otherwise.
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Yet these people of alien descent are attending our universities and are apparently not subject to call. These universities are kept going by the state. It is true these young men are paying their tuition fees and the cost of their board and lodging, but the cost of maintaining the institutions is a state responsibility. These young men are being qualified in their respective professions, whether it be science, the law or anything else, and will be ready to enter into competion with a generation which has been limited in its attendance at university.
This situation is rather disconcerting to the public. On account of their background it may not be possible to take them into the armed forces, particularly when they have been sent here by England, but we have a duty to our own people to see .that these people are not allowed to take the cream of the land without having taken part in the struggle in which we are rfow engaged. I think we could satisfy public opinion without being too generous to these aliens who are attending our universities We could give them every possible assistance, but require of them a scientific application of their knowledge rather than provide an advancement of their learning.
This matter has been brought forcibly to the public mind by reason of the questions asked following the controversy which took place at Toronto university about the admission or non-adinission or rejection of these students. There are many ways of looking at this matter. There should be a proper way to handle this problem and satisfy public opinion.


James Layton Ralston: First, I want to correct an impression I may have left with regard to the one individual who I said had not behaved properly. He was not a student at Toronto university; he was at another university.
I am sorry that I have not before me the exact text of what had been determined in connection with this matter of enlistments and call-ups. I wish to say that I am thoroughly in accord with the idea that these young men should serve this country and1 should be prepared to do their full part in so far as the country can avail itself of their services. I want to go farther and say that so far as the army is concerned I am not one of those who believe that we should keep these young men out of the army if, after investigation, we are able to satisfy ourselves that they will serve the country properly. I feel that the obligation is on us to investigate them and, if possible, to make use of their services. That goes both for voluntary enlistments and for men being called up. My hon. friend has
[M>. Boucher.]
suggested as an alternative that if they cannot go into the army, they should at least be required to serve this country in some other way by utilization of their scientific training or ability in that line. As a matter of fact, that has not been considered by the government so far as I know, but, to express my personal opinion, I am thoroughly in accord with that.. I am not one of those witch hunters who feel that everybody who happens to be of alien birth is, therefore, somebody whom we must either put behind barbed wire or else relieve from the obligations of residence in Canada in time of war if he is to have the benefit of domicile and asylum here. Not long ago the army discharged certain men who, I believed on investigation and from what the sponsors who spoke for them said, would prove eminently good soldiers in every way. After their cases had been investigated they were told that if they cared to be reenlisted we would reenlist them. That is the attitude of the army, and I do not believe we are endangering the safety of the state, provided we take the necessary precautions, which we have the facilities to do, to check up on them and' make sure that they are the sort of people who can give good service in the army.


Mr. POULIOT:: I have just one question to ask the minister. It is about internment camps for anti-nazis. I should like to know how many of them there are in this country and what is being done at the anti-nazi refugee camp at Sherbrooke. I am informed that last year they were getting two big truckloads of beer each week. I understand that it is pretty hard to get it now, but all last year they had it. I could give the minister the name of the driver. It seems strange that while we are fighting the nazis, some others who are opposed to them are placed in internment camps in this country under the Department of National Defence.
I should like to know how many of these camps there are, how much they cost and why we keep these men behind barbed wire if they feel as we do about the nazis.


James Layton Ralston: I know nothing about the matter, but I will make inquiries to find out the circumstances of which my hon. friend speaks.


Jean-François Pouliot: The man in charge of the camp gave a public lecture in Sherbrooke last year and it was printed in La Tribune, a daily paper. I think we are entitled to some information with regard to the matter. I do not wish to cause any trouble to the minister, but I find it astounding that these men who feel like we do about the war and want to defeat the nazis should be kept in an internment

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camp. I cannot conceive it. I should like to know how much it costs the country and how it is that the internees receive so much beer.


Mr. STIRLING:: The cases which the minister dealt with just now were those of students. Can he tell us with regard to those others who have been released after investigation from among, those brought from Britain by Britain's permission? For instance, I am informed that there are some who, on account of their knowledge of languages, have been of considerable use; I do not know how many there are. I am further informed that besides those who have been so made use of on account of their knowledge of languages, there are still others in the camps who have been cleared by the investigators but have not yet been released. Does the minister know anything about them?


James Layton Ralston: I do not think we have
any information in National Defence as to the first class of which my hon. friend speaks. If they were released, they would be released either on parole and be required to report to the police, or be released under general parole. With regard to the second class, those who have been investigated but not yet released, I have no report on them but I shall certainly make inquiries. I shall also make inquiries regarding the matter raised by the hon. member for Temiscouata.


Mr. EDWARDS:: In reference to what the hon. member for Temiscouata has just said, because a man happens to be anti-nazi it does not necessarily follow that he is pro-ally. There are some rather big internment operations in my part of the country, and it is known that within the confines of the internment camp the nazi party rules with an iron hand. They have their gestapo within the camp. It is not difficult to imagine that among those who fought us on the fields of battle, whether in North Africa or elsewhere, there are those who do not subscribe to the principles of the nazi party, and I believe that upon the discovery of such in the internment camps these same anti-nazis are given a very difficult time. But that does not put them in any different category; they are still enemies of the allied nations.


Jean-François Pouliot: And they drink a lot of beer.


Manley Justin Edwards: Well, after all, they buy their beer with their own money. So far as I know, there is no restriction upon what an interned soldier can buy in Canada, in
Great Britain or in Germany with those funds which are provided to him by the interning country, whichever it may be. In other words, Canadian soldiers interned in Germany in the last war could spend what money they had available to them for luxuries or niceties such as they were able to purchase or the country afforded, and I believe the same rule applies in Canada. I have heard the same comment in discussion in my part of the country. People were wondering why there were certain kinds of fruits and candies being bought by the internees. The explanation is very simple. Each of these interned German soldiers has a limited fund, ten or fifteen or twenty-five cents a day, that is paid to him, and if he sees fit to spend his ten or fifteen or twenty-five cents a day to buy beer or chewing gum or cigarettes or whatever else is available to him, there is no law of the land that would deny him the right to have it. I think that is recognized by all countries which are involved in this fight.
I rose, however, primarily, to direct a question to the minister with respect to a certain class of people with whose ideas I confess I have little sympathy, but for whose religious convictions, if they are in truth founded on beliefs of the mind or the spirit or the heart, I have every respect. I refer to the so-called conscientious objectors, more familiarly known as the "conchies". In the section of the country to the west of me we had camps where men of this category were interned or required to do alternative service. I think even the devil is entitled to his due; and while I hold no brief for the conscientious objectors as such, I was pleased, indeed I was astounded, to learn at first hand of the favourable impression which these so-called conscientious objectors created in the minds of those who were charged with their internment. I was told and have every reason to believe that they were doing excellent work, work which in Canada has a money value of three or four or five dollars a day.
But my inquiries led me farther afield, and have prompted me to raise this question in the committee. I was told by not a few officers and men who are in charge of these internment operations and learned as a result of interviews with several internees, that these people would like to be allowed to make a contribution to the winning of the war if there could be found for them a
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niche which would not necessitate the violating of their consciences by requiring them to carry arms and take the lives of their fellow men. They have no conscientious objection to engaging in any of these auxiliary services contributory to the winning of the war; the one point at which they draw the line is that they will not deliberately and consciously take the life of a human being, be he friend or foe. Having regard1 to the constitution of the modern army, I have been wondering whether, among the hundreds of thousands of men required in the armed services, there is not a place where these men, who are good citizens and loyal Canadians and are sympathetic to our ideals, but have a firm conviction, founded on what, as they understand them, are orthodox Christian beliefs, that they should not take the lives of their fellow men, could usefully serve their king and country at this time.
I was told the situation had been met elsewhere. I find that in the United States, by presidential decree issued in 1941, the government recognizes two classes of conscientious objectors: those who are absolutely opposed to any kind of participation in warfare, whether by bearing arms or otherwise, and those who are willing to engage in any of the activities of war except that of taking the life of a fellow man. The head of the United States army, in conformity with the presidential decree, designated certain branches of the armed forces as non-combatant services; and I believe that last year over five thousand adherents of one sect alone, namely the Seventh Day Adventists, were regularly inducted into the United States army and are now wearing the uniform with pride and distinction. Only the other day I received a clipping of a citation of one of these Seventh Day Adventist soldiers for bravery at Guadalcanal. Surely somewhere in our armed forces there are places for such men. I find it difficult to believe that in every branch of the armed services men are required to carry arms.
It is with some hesitation I bring this matter before the committee and put the question squarely to the minister, whether there is not some way whereby the conscientious scruples of these men can be respected while enabling them to do a worth-while job in the armed services. In this connection I am aware that there is a little buck-passing going on, because whether or not a man is a conscientious objector is determined elsewhere than by the service departments. The Department of Labour, or national selective service, which the Department of Labour now administers, makes

that decision. I am a little afraid that a man who approaches that board claiming exemption as a conscientious objector goes to bat with three strikes against him. Are we being quite fair in this respect? To determine a man's medical fitness we employ medical advisers; to pass upon his engineering and trade qualifications we have boards of men who have spent their lives at this work and are competent to judge. I suggest that in matters involving conscientious scruples and objections founded on religious convictions, the ordinary civilian board may lack the requisite background and training to appreciate fully the problem upon which they are to pass judgment. It seems to me that men whose life work it has been to deal with problems of religion and conscientious scruples, or the reverse, might well be added to the board when it is required to pass judgment on a Canadian citizen who comes before it asking for special consideration on the grounds of conscientious objection. Ministers of the gospel are familiar with such matters, and one, if not two, might well be included in a board when it is required to pass on cases involving religious or conscientious scruples.
I commend to the favourable consideration of the committee and of the government, first, that boards dealing with conscientious objectors or those claiming on such grounds should be differently constituted from those dealing with national selective service under other conditions; and, second, that it should be possible to find some place in the Canadian army, navy or air force where a person, despite conscientious scruples in regard to the one matter of taking life, can make his contribution, as is done in the United States.


Mr. McIVOR:: I should like to ask the minister how many of the men who tried to escape from internment camps are now at large, if any are at large.


James Layton Ralston: I think there is only one; he was last heard of on the other side of the ocean.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: That shows two things, first, that the old soldier who wanted to get into the war and could not, on account of his age, has given outstanding service. To think that of all those who were interned on this side, only one is at large, and perhaps not even that one! It shows, too, that the Germans and Italians are not quite as clever as the British or French who can escape from a German camp, get away with it and get back into the war again.

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Joseph William Noseworthy: There were one or two classes of people to whom I wished to refer, not at all by way of criticism of the government's policy, but because I question the wisdom of the course we are following at a time when man-power is badly needed. Reference has already been made to the refugee internees of whom the minister spoke. My information is that there are still a considerable number of these people whose history has been checked and with regard to whom there is no reason to believe that they should not be freed from internment and put to useful work. There are also, I am told, some who were released for a period of time and given jobs and who were taken back to these internment camps when the specified period of employment stopped. I have been told by people who have been in close touch with this question that a number of these people are being kept in these internment camps for the simple reason that the camp must be kept in operation. You cannot have a camp in operation and officers employed unless you have internees there. I have heard that from public-spirited citizens who have made a close study of the refugee problem. I think the minister might check that.
Then, concerning the conscientious objectors, I have had considerable correspondence with the Department of Labour, but very little satisfaction. I know personally two young men taken from Toronto university on the ground that they were conscientious objectors who would not go into the killing branch of the army, though they are quite willing to serve in any other capacity. One of these was a second year medical student and the other a third year medical student. They have asked to be permitted to do work in hospitals, orderly work or something of that kind, where their services can be used. I have correspondence from another, a graduate scientist, who is anxious to give his services in research work or in any other way in which he can be used, except to do actual fighting in the army.
There is another class, a religious group, who not only refuse active service but refuse alternate service, and they are sent to gaol. I have met a number of them, both before they were sentenced and afterwards. My story from their relatives is that they are put in solitary confinement for a given period, then brought out and asked if they are willing to join the army, and if they are not willing they are put back in solitary confinement. Some of them would be willing to serve in
essential industry or on farms if the government saw fit to release them for that purpose. The one freedom they want is to be permitted to preach the religion of their choice as they see it and believe it. Those I have known personally are harmless. One of them, for instance, was a railroad mechanic doing an excellent job on the railway. We take him and put him in solitary confinement, because, by reason of his religious scruples, he will not go into the army or into one of the alternate services. It seems to me that by using some intelligence we could utilize this man-power to better advantage without affecting the war effort in any way. There are these three classes, the class of refugee internees and the conscientious objectors. I am collecting more information on these three types of individuals. I am confident that these boys should be given service of some kind instead of cleaning up brush in an alternate service camp as at the present time. There are the conscientious objectors who have been sent to gaol. I wonder whether something can be done in this regard.


Angus MacInnis: I support the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Edwards) and the hon. member for York South (Mr. Noseworthy) in what has been said about conscientious objectors. I think the attitude that is adopted toward these conscientious objectors is not a correct one. We first made [DOT]provision for conscientious objectors, and then we treat them as if they had violated the law. We treat them in some respects as criminals. Most conscientious objectors I have known are a very high type of citizen. We may not agree with their point of view or the attitude they take in the national emergency; nevertheless they are men of the highest character. I was impressed with this fact a few days ago when I got a letter from a conscientious objector who worked in a forestry camp in British Columbia. He told me that the treatment he received in the camp was everything that could be desired, that neither he nor any of the others had objections or could find fault with it. But this is what he said: "We feel that at this time when man-power is so badly needed we are really not doing very useful work here. Taking a long point of view, this forestry work may be very desirable, but it is not work that should be done now when there is essential work that we should be doing, which the country needs far more than this." He suggested that they should be transferred to agricultural work. In my opinion, the hon. member for Calgary West put the case
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very well indeed. We should try to utilize the services of these men in the interests of the country, and not be swayed by prejudices and intolerance. I know that some of the members of the boards investigating these cases, whatever their qualifications may be in other walks of life, certainly have not the proper qualifications to consider the cases of persons who are conscientious objectors. I believe the minister, in so far as he is able, will give the matter his attention. I support most heartily the point raised by the hon. member for Calgary West.


Grote Stirling: Are these conscientious
objectors not now being used on useful work within the parks?


Angus MacInnis: To-day work within parks is not necessarily useful work, when the agricultural districts are requiring men, and when we are taking men out of the shipyards, and from many other kinds of work, to put them on the farms. To keep men in the parks filling up holes, then digging the holes again, and then filling them up is not making a proper use of man-power.


Grote Stirling: The hon. member disagrees with the kind of work in which they are engaged?


Angus MacInnis: Yes, at this particular time.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I was glad to hear what the minister said respecting the possible utilization of persons-even in the armed forces-despite their being enemy aliens. As the minister may be aware, I have repeatedly disagreed with the policy of the government, and particularly that of the Department of National Defence, which operated on the premise that because a man was an alien, even though he might be naturalized after a certain period, there was no possibility of his being used in the armed forces.
I was instrumental in getting into the army one young man whose father was a German. He did extremely well, and was recommended for a commission. It was discovered eventually that he was of German parentage, and an attempt was made to have him discharged from the army. I am prepared to believe that that young man, as well as many others, was as loyal a Canadian as any hon. member in the house. The fact that a father happened to be born in Germany is no reason for damning a second or third generation.
I emphasize the point that after due investigation has been made-and we cannot be too careful-these people should be accepted. The simple basis of nationality is a false premise. It is wrong and even undemocratic to prevent a young man from fighting for his [Mr. MacInnis.J
adopted country, if he chooses to do so. A number have wished so to do, but as a result of the present regulations they have been prevented.
Elsewhere I have seen men whom I have known to be Germans, working in the imperial forces, and performing extremely valuable and confidential tasks. I was delighted to hear the minister's statement to-night, and I hope he will see to its enforcement in the department.
The forgotten man in the armed forces today is the man engaged in internment operations. I was glad to hear the hon. member for Fort William mention the veterans guard as being among those in charge of internment operations. There is no job in Canada as trying, as exasperating or as objectionable as looking after prisoners. And of all the prisoners the Germans are the most objectionable. Looking after them is a thankless and miserable job. The only thing that can happen to an internment guard is that he collects abuse, in the event of an escape. A hue and cry goes up, followed by a court of inquiry and occasionally a court-martial.
There have been escapes, and probably there will be more of them. We cannot help having some, when we are dealing with as large a number of interned prisoners as are now interned in Canada.
I think the minister should emphasize the fact that there have been very few escapes in Canada, whereas on the other hand, in respect of our fellows, I will not mention any number, but will say that at times there are hundreds of members of the British armed forces loose in enemy territory. I mention that only by way of comparison with our effort. I believe we have lost only one man. Von Werra secured a boat, crossed the St. Lawrence river and got back to Germany.


James Layton Ralston: And even he was not lost from a camp.


Agar Rodney Adamson: No; he was lost from a train, and was subsequently killed on the Russian front. It cost the German government $25,000 for Von Werra to break his parole. He is the only one who got back to Germany. On the other hand, we read stories as to the numbers who have escaped, after being taken prisoners at the Dieppe and other operations.
The veterans' guard has to put up with the abuse of these sullen prisoners. A particularly objectionable feature was the unfortunate practice of manacling prisoners. This is the unfortunate and unhappy job he has to

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do. But he is doing it efficiently, and I pay tribute to him for a job being performed under difficult circumstances.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Does the amount of $4,595,535 cover food and attendance? I ask this question because many people have asked why the German prisoners in Canada do not need boxes of food to keep them well fed, whereas our troops who are prisoners overseas have to have them to keep alive.


James Layton Ralston: Was the hon. member asking about operating expenses?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: All operating expenses, including food and administration. Then, of course, we must include the pay to the internees, as well. I understand it comes from Switzerland.


James Layton Ralston: Yes; for all except officers.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Since a number of these internees have been captured by the British, does the British government pay any part of the expense?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. I am not in a position at the moment to disclose the financial arrangement with the United Kingdom, but there is an arrangement as to their contribution.
Mr. GREEN; The hon. member for Calgary West said that in these prison camps the nazis are in command, that they have their own gestapo and so on. Would the minister say what system is followed in organizing these camps, and whether it is a fact that the Germans in the camps practically control the whole organization?


James Layton Ralston: There is a spokesman in each camp.


Howard Charles Green: He is a German?


James Layton Ralston: It would depend upon the set-up in that camp; I suppose he would represent the majority. Endeavour has been made to segregate those of different tendencies and types particularly civilians. You will remember that this came up some time ago in connection with the Fredericton camp. The nazi group as far as possible are segregated from the anti-nazi group. That was the situation which arose in the Fredericton camp, which brought about the alleged riot which was spoken of here some time ago.


Howard Charles Green: The situation is that the prisoners themselves have practically complete control within the wires?


James Layton Ralston: Not complete control.
They have an organization whereby one man
speaks for them and is responsible for-I was going to say their good behaviour, but that is hardly the right expression. A communication to him is regarded as a communication to the prisoners in the camp; a warning to him is regarded as a warning to them; if the arrangements he has made are not carried out. then the necessary punitive, remedial and disciplinary measures follow. As my hon. friend knows, the guards are closely in touch with the prisoners in the camp, who are given a certain amount of freedom inside; that is to say, they are not harassed continually if they are behaving properly. They are given a certain amount of autonomy in connection with their day to day arrangements. Their parades are at a certain time; they are out during certain hours; their meals are served at certain hours; roll call is at certain hours, but with regard to what they may be doing at a particular time, that can be largely arranged by themselves. The guards do circulate through the inclosure as frequently as may be necessary in order to see that no untoward event is taking place, and endeavours are made to check any attempts to escape by tunnelling and all that sort of thing.


Howard Charles Green: Who is the director of internment operations; who is in charge?


James Layton Ralston: Colonel Streight.


Howard Charles Green: Then how do the veterans
guard fit into the picture?


James Layton Ralston: They have full charge
with regard1 to the guarding arrangements of the camps. They are distributed all over Canada, but within the district they are under the district officer commanding, whoever he may be. The guard is just like a detachment of infantry or any other part of the Canadian army which is sent to a particular place to do a particular job.


Howard Charles Green: Are they under the director of internment operations also?


James Layton Ralston: No; the guard are under the district officer commanding.. The director of internment operations is the liaison with External Affairs, and has particularly to do with seeing that international arrangements are carried out with all the incidents which deal with the maintaining of the Geneva convention respecting prisoners of war. The director of internment operations is not directly responsible for the guarding of the prisoners or for their security; rather he is the headquarters officer having supervision over the
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entire operation. The district officers commanding are the men responsible for the actual guarding of the camps.


George Russell Boucher: Didi I understand the
minister to say that this amount of $8,430,895 covers all expenses of internment camps, including food, clothing and lodging of the internees; maintenance of the institutions, pay of the guards and administration, except in so far as international contributions are concerned?


James Layton Ralston: That is so.


Howard Charles Green: In a large camp where there are perhaps ten thousand nazis, would the position be that the ruler of that camp within the wires would be the nazi leader, who would have complete control of the ten thousand prisoners?


James Layton Ralston: I do not want to say "complete control". He looks after the domestic arrangements, shall I say, among the prisoners themselves, with regard to their comfort and matters of that sort. He has no control in the sense of being able to order the prisoners to do certain things. He is rather a liaison officer between the camp commandant and the prisoners.


Howard Charles Green: If the camp commandant wants anything, he deals with the nazi leader?


James Layton Ralston: That is so, if he is the camp spokesman.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I understand that many of these internees are sent over from Great Britain to be placed in these camps, and that many prisoners of war are sent here as well. Does Great Britain make any financial contribution toward the cost of these camps?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. I answered that question a moment ago. I prefer not to disclose the terms of the financial arrangements, but there is a very substantial arrangement, as a matter of fact, in regard to both capital and operation.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Would the minister also indicate what pay is given? I understand the prisoners of war cannot be made to work but, if they volunteer to work, they are paid twenty cents a day extra. Is that correct?


James Layton Ralston: I think it is twenty cents a day.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What pay do they get if they are not doing any work, and what pay is given the officers?


James Layton Ralston: Under the Geneva convention officers receive from the power in whose custody they are, certain pay and allowances, while other ranks are paid small sums by their own government through the protecting power. Other ranks who work are paid twenty cents a day. I cannot give my hon. friend the rates at the moment.


Agar Rodney Adamson: One of the causes of friction in the past has been the fact that the responsibility of the district officer commanding started at the wire, while the responsibility of the director of internment operations ended at the wire and began in the compound. I know this is a matter of international arrangement, but there seemed to me to be a certain amount of divided authority, that internment operations looked after the prisoners until they escaped, and that immediately they escaped it became the job of the Canadian military authorities and the veterans' guard, under the district officer commanding. I know that matter has been brought to the attention of the minister on previous occasions, but this has been one of the difficulties in connection with internment operations, and there have been cases where the military authorities have not operated inside the compound as they might have, had there not been this dual authority. Has the minister any information as to what is done in other countries? For instance, what do the Americans do in this regard?


James Layton Ralston: I think my hon. friend is mistaken with regard to the dual responsibility. The Department of National Defence, under the new arrangement, has absolute responsibility except in one aspect; namely with regard to external relations, which are handled through the Department of External Affairs. In all other respects the Department of National Defence is responsible. As I pointed out, the director of internment operations is a headquarters staff officer at national defence headquarters. He does not have executive power in the sense of allocating troops here, there and the other place. Those troops are allocated by the adjutant-general to the officer commanding the district in which the particular camp is located. There is no such thing as divided responsibility. The hon. member suggested that the military authorities 'go to the wire and the commissioner of internment operations has jurisdiction inside. That is not correct. The military authorities have complete jurisdiction. The guards are under the Department of National Defence and under the district officer commanding, and are responsible for both interior and exterior

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security. The order in council is that the entire responsibility for prisoners of war, enemy aliens and other internees is transferred to the Department of National Defence.


Agar Rodney Adamson: When was that passed?


James Layton Ralston: One was passed on November 19, 1942, and another on January 20, 1943. The latter order in council provided for the transferring of refugees as well as prisoners of war. The Department of National Defence became responsible for guarding, discipline, the censorship of mail, the welfare of prisoners, internees and refugees, and the maintenance and operation of all camps. There was what I regarded as some divided responsibility, tout that has been cured.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That answers my question. The camp commandant is responsible to the district officer commanding.


Howard Charles Green: Has the director of internment operations any authority over the various camp commandants?


James Layton Ralston: He has not.


Howard Charles Green: He has no right to move them about or discharge them or do anything of that kind?


James Layton Ralston: No. The director of internment operations as an officer of the adjutant-general's branch has the right to go to the camps and reports direct to the adjutant-general. The usual practice is for him to consult with the district officer commanding, since he is in the district. He acts almost in the capacity of an inspector-general in regard to matters of security and the carrying out of the Geneva convention.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Are representatives of
the International Red Cross and the international Y.M.C.A. allowed inside the camps as well as representatives of the protecting power, the Swiss government?


James Layton Ralston: The protecting power has the right, and the others are allowed in by mutual agreement with the detaining power.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What pay is received by officer prisoners? Is it correct that they are paid a percentage of what they would receive if they were serving in their own army? Should they receive a promotion while a prisoner, does that automatically increase the pay which they receive from the Canadian government?


James Layton Ralston: They are paid the amount agreed upon as between the German government, if they are German prisoners, the United Kingdom government and the Canadian government. They may receive a promotion if intimation comes through their government or the protecting power.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Does that apply in the same way to Canadian prisoners of war in Germany? Do they receive an increase in pay in the event of promotion?


James Layton Ralston: It is not certain.


Mr. POWER:: We cannot get definite information on that point. I have been trying to get it for the last eight months.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Should we not have a quid pro quo in regard to that?


James Layton Ralston: We have been trying for
some time to have a quid pro quo in connection with prisoners of war.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: If a German prisoner receives a promotion do we have to increase his pay?


James Layton Ralston: By agreement, if the
agreement refers to the rank, the pay is increased.


Mr. HANSELL:: I do not think the matter of conscientious objectors and their internment has been cleared up entirely.


James Layton Ralston: Conscientious objectors
are one thing, and internment is another. We have been somewhat confused in the discussion. The hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Edwards) was really discussing a matter which was outside the terms of this resolution entirely, while the hon. member for York South (Mr. Noseworthy) was discussing something which was within the terms of the resolution. He was discussing those who are interned, and that is part of this vote. I have no objection under the proper circumstances to discussing the matter of conscientious objectors, but I do not think this is the item under which it should be discussed.


Ernest George Hansell: I should like to know just where I could bring in that discussion.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Under the labour estimates.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry? Some hon. MEMBERS: Carried.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The next item is dependents' supplementary grants fund, $1,285,000.


Charles Edward Johnston: I believe this is the item under which we can discuss assistance given to wives who have been deserted by soldiers. I brought a case to the attention of the minister the other day, and he said he would review the matter and make a statement to the house.
War Appropriation-Army


James Layton Ralston: The chairman of the dependents' board of trustees tells me that the case submitted by my hon. friend is being examined. He is right in assuming that it can be discussed under this item.


Charles Edward Johnston: I took the matter up with the department separately, but I was wondering if there was a breakdown of this particular case.


James Layton Ralston: No.


Clarence Gillis: I am interested in a matter similar to that brought up by the hon. member. The dependents' board of trustees is not permitted to grant an allowance unless the dependent is receiving pay and allowance. When a man goes absent without leave and is away for the period covered by the regulations, his dependent's allowance is cut off and, if it is a wife, she cannot receive any assistance from the dependents' board of trustees. I ask the minister to see that the functions of this board are extended so that they may give assistance to these women. There are many cases across Canada, and a sad situation is being created because this board cannot give assistance to women in this position.


James Layton Ralston: After the three months.


Clarence Gillis: That is as I understand it.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, June 1, 1943