1943-06-18

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have a communication from His Majesty the King:
Government House, Ottawa,
16th June, 1943.
Dear Mr. Speaker,
I am desired by the Governor General to enclose herewith a letter addressed to you by the private secretary to the King in connection with the resolution adopted by the House of Commons on the occasion of the official celebration of His Majesty's birthday.
Yours sincerely,
F. L. C. Pereira, Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.
Buckingham Palace,
8th June, 1943.
Dear Mr. Speaker,
The King has received from the High Commissioner for Canada a copy of the resolution adopted by the House of Commons of Canada on the occasion of the official celebration of his birthday.	.
I am commanded by the King to assure the members of the House of Commons of His Majesty's sincere gratitude for this expression of good wishes, and for the generous terms in which they refer to him.

The King shares in full measure their hope that the day may not be far distant when the blessings of peace may be enjoyed throughout the world once more.
Yours sincerely,
A. H. L. Hardinge.



INTERNATIONAL RELIEF


[Stage Direction]
On the order for motions:
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: On June 11, in reply to an inquiry from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Graydon), I stated that I hope to be able shortly to lay on the table the draft agreement for the establishment of a United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. I now table this draft agreement together with an introductory note explaining the status of the proposals. The draft agreement has been framed by the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union and China in consultation together. It was presented on June 10 for the consideration of other united nations by the Secretary of State of the United States on behalf of these four powers. It is contemplated that after the other governments have had an opportunity of examining these proposals they will be submitted for discussion and approval to a conference of representatives of the united nations and the nations associated with them in this war. The proposals are now under consideration by the government of Canada and Canada will be glad to send representatives to the projected conference.
The problems of bringing relief and rehabilitation to the war-torn regions of the world as they are liberated from enemy control are so vast as almost to stagger the imagination. Much preparatory work has been done in estimating the requirements in the occupied territories of our European allies and in planning the means for meeting these requirements as far as possible. An inter-allied committee under the chairmanship of Sir Frederick Leith-Ross has been engaged in this task in London for nearly two years. Relief and rehabilitation cover many things in addition to the supply of essential foodstuffs for the restoration and maintenance of health. Clothing and medicines will be urgent needs from the day of liberation. Throughout an essential purpose must be to restore production and commerce in the occupied countries by the provision or repair of means of transport, by the supply of agricultural seeds, machinery and live stock, and by making available essential equipment and raw materials for local industries, es-

Canadian Army-Prize Fighting
pecially those engaged in the manufacture of consumers' goods. Relief in the narrow sense is only the first stage of feeding the hungry, tending the sick, and clothing the needy. Relief merges into rehabilitation- the restoration of the productive capacity of the occupied territories so that they may as soon as possible return to normal economic life.	.
The amounts needed to restore the economies of the occupied countries are very great indeed and the supplies available to the united nations are far from adequate to [DOT] meet all urgent demands. It is, therefore, of the first importance that relief and rehabilitation should be conducted under a carefully planned international scheme, so as to ensure that the best use is made of available supplies and that relief is not denied to those in urgent need because they may lack financial resources or shipping or a stable authority to supervise distribution.
I have already stated that Canada is prepared to play her full part in international relief, and I am sure that this statement is supported in all quarters of this house. Since the draft agreement which I have tabled is tentative and Will be revised in the light of the observations received from many governments, I believe that it is not necessary to discuss its terms at present in any detail. It is a first step in building a united nations organization for this purpose. It would establish at once a council on which all countries participating in the administration would be represented. The council would be supplemented by a central committee, a committee on supplies and regional committees. A director general supported by an international staff would be responsible for executive operation. That is the framework which the agreement would set up. After its establishment, the organs of the united nations relief and rehabilitation administration would work out detailed arrangements within this framework.
For the convenience of hon. members, I suggest that the draft agreement should be printed in Votes and Proceedings of to-day.



THE FIGHTING FRENCH


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, on June 18, 1940 in the darkest hour of this world-wide struggle, a small group of Frenchmen issued a call to their countrymen to continue the fight against the enemy until the hour of final victory. Since that day three years ago the strength and striking power of French
resistance have steadily increased. To-day, the third anniversary of that significant step, would seem to be an appropriate occasion on which to welcome the recent union of the Fighting French Forces of General de Gaulle with the French armies commanded by General Giraud. The formation in North Africa of the French committee of national liberation is a clear indication of the determination of all Frenchmen to work together to bring about the total defeat of the enemy. Though the way will be hard and long we may now look forward, I trust, to the day when France herself will be free and united.


Mr. COLD WELL:: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister whether this means that the government will recognize the Fighting French and the new committee as the true voice of France; and will the Canadian government give recognition in Ottawa to their representatives?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall make a statement later as to the recognition which Canada will give to the forces just mentioned by my hon. friend.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Has the Prime Minister any information with respect to the reconciliation between General de Gaulle and General Giraud? My understanding is that reconciliation is not wholly complete.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There are
difficulties, but I think that the statement I made is justified in the light of conditions as they exist at present.



CANADIAN ARMY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. C. MACDONALD (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of National Defence) :: Mr. Speaker, on Friday, June 11, in answer to a question by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon), I stated that I would make inquiries into allegations made by the sports columnist of the Toronto Globe and Mail with reference to arrangements made by the Canadian army respecting Private Johnnie Greco's boxing bouts.
I find that Greco was enlisted on January 13 last and was granted leave without pay from February 5 to February 20 in order to complete a pre-enlistment contract to fight Cleo Shans in New York on February 19. The army had nothing to do with this fight. Following the fight of February 19, Mike Jacobs on behalf of the Twentieth Century Sporting Club of New York asked for a return
Labour Conditions

bout to be held in New York and offered ten per cent of the gross receipts as a gift to military district No. 4 athletic fund. Officers of that district felt that the publicity would be of benefit to the army and Greco was given fourteen days' leave without pay to fight in New York on March 26. The athletic fund of military district No. 4 received $5,000 from the Twentieth Century Sporting Club as its share of the receipts.
As a result of Greco's success in New York it was decided to stage a show in Montreal on May 8. This was completely an army show. All details were handled by officers at military district No. 4 and no civilians were involved. Jacobs had nothing to do with this show except obtaining an opponent for Greco.	He	did	not	share in any of	the
receipts, although indirectly he may have benefited through his connection with Madison Square Gardens by participating in any royalties paid by the American Gillette Razor company for the broadcasting rights.
Greoo received remuneration for the three fights.	For	his	fight	in Montreal he	got
$2,328, out of which he would have to pay his trainer, also training and incidental expenses. Military district No. 4 athletic fund got $1,586, clear of all expenses, out of the Montreal fight.
Officers in military district No. 4 felt that the Canadian army was receiving favourable publicity by Greco's fights. Consequently when the Twentieth Century Sporting Club offered	him	an	opportunity to fight	BobMontgomery	in	New	York the offer	was
accepted, subject to the exigencies of the service and to permission being given by National Defence headquarters for Greco to go to New York to fight. Permission was refused, so that the fight will not take place.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What an
important announcement!


Mr. RALSTON:: So important that it was asked for twice by the leader of the opposition.



LABOUR CONDITIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Labour arising out of a telephone conversation this afternoon with union officials in Toronto. They state that 289 men were dismissed this morning by the Toronto Shipbuilding Company without notification. Has the Department of Labour any

knowledge of the matter? If so, what steps are being taken to remedy this serious interruption of an essential war plant?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, no intimation has
come to me with reference to the subject matter of my hon. friend's question, but I shall be glad to make immediate inquiries.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Science service.
10. Entomology, $459,197.
tylr. QUELCH: Could the minister give the committee any information regarding the grasshopper situation in western Canada? We are informed that there is likely to be a serious infestation in various parts of the west.
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: It is not expected that the situation will be at all serious this year. As hon. members from the west are aware, it is not usual for us to have very bad infestations under conditions such as we had last year, or following last year's conditions.


Mr. QUELCH:: I understand from a recent crop report that certain parts of eastern Alberta are very dry.


James Garfield Gardiner: Of course, in any limited localities where there are difficulties they will be taken care of, as usual, by arrangements between this department and the departments in Alberta.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are there any new developments in this department? It has done a great deal of good work in connection with the potato industry in New Brunswick. Has the minister anything to report in that connection? I understand that the late director, Doctor Gibson, has been retired on superannuation and that a successor has been appointed.


James Garfield Gardiner: So far as Doctor Gibson is concerned, Doctor L. S. McLaine is taking his place.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I understand that. What I want to know is whether the minister has anything to report in the way of progress made last year. In my view this is an important service. Has he anything interesting to tell the country?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is nothing at present which would warrant a special statement with regard to this particular section. The

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usual work, of course, is going on, and a little later in the season, because of some investigations which are now being held, a statement will be made.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has the minister had any report on an infestation which is affecting the elm trees in my city? Does the department take cognizance of that sort of thing-tent caterpillars and the like- and what help do they lend to treatment?


James Garfield Gardiner: The laboratory which deals with that matter is located in Fredericton.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes.


James Garfield Gardiner: And of course they examine into all difficulties which arise in connection with trees or forests in general and make reports on them, and efforts are made to combat such difficulties as exist.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Can the minister give us any information as to what progress has been made towards coping with the infestation of the hardwood trees in eastern Canada, and also the sawfly infestation in our eastern forests? A great deal of damage has been done to the hardwood growths; hundreds of thousands of dollars have been lost, I am afraid, by reason of these infestations. The department was taking steps to combat both. Has the minister anything to report?


James Garfield Gardiner: I suppose it is the bronze birch borer which is referred to. My understanding is that there has not been discovered any means of combating the attacks that are made by the borer on hardwood trees, but that the department assists in salvaging the wood which is affected as a result of the operations of this insect.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the department continuing investigations of ways and means of combating it? What progress if any has been made beyond the mere negative which the minister has indicated? This is very important; the infestation is the source of great loss, as I tried to emphasize a moment ago. Has the same situation been met in the United States; what, if anything, has been done down there; and are we utilizing all available sources of information from the continent if there are any such now? Germany used to be very much alive to this sort of thing, but I suppose that source of information is now dried up. No progress has been made; in effect that is what the minister tells us?


James Garfield Gardiner: That is quite right.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am sorry to hear it.


James Garfield Gardiner: The work has been going on continuously, but we have not yet discovered any means of successfully combating the borer.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What
about the sawfly? Some years ago a parasite was imported. Has that experiment been successful; that is, in connection with the spruce?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The method of fighting that particular insect has been described to the house, I think, each session since I have been down here, and probably for some time before that. The scourge has spread over a very considerable part of the area, particularly in the eastern part of Canada, and we have been breeding parasites and distributing them. I understand that some 800 millions have been distributed, and the insect seems to be under control. The scourge is gradually being reduced in different parts.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is to say, the infestation is not spreading?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, it is not spreading; it is being reduced rather than increasing.


Mr. PERLEY:: This year, throughout
Canada, and particularly in the west, the people responded to the idea of victory gardens, but I understand there has been quite an infestation of the cutworm. I had a letter yesterday from a correspondent who said that this year he put in about another acre of garden to produce vegetables, because of the appeal which was made to do something in that line, but practically the whole thing has been destroyed. He wound up his letter with the words, "No more victory garden for me." Will the minister state what information he has with respect to the cutworm, what damage it has done, and what steps are being taken to deal with it?


James Garfield Gardiner: The cutworm, of course, is always present, particularly in western Canada, whether they are victory gardens or whether they are not. Cutworms do not pay much attention to that.


Mr. GRAYDON:: They do not make any discrimination.


James Garfield Gardiner: No; and at times they become so plentiful that they destroy the crops as well as the gardens. I am not aware that there is any serious infestation this year in connection with crops, but I have no doubt that considerable destruction has taken place, as usual, in gardens. The only thing I can say with regard to dealing with them is that in the experience of the past there has been a
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fly which has usually followed the cutworm and which acts in somewhat the same way as any parasite acts upon any of these different pests that we have. The fly darts around and lays an egg in the cutworm which results .n the cutworm itself being consumed. That goes on continuously; it is a peculiarity with insect life. I do not know what can be done about the cutworm in gardens, unless one goes out in the garden and sees to it that they are destroyed with poison or otherwise.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: I understand that some damage has been caused by the mountain pine bark beetle. Does that come under the supervision of the Department of Agriculture, and if so, how many men are engaged in combating this pest? What success are they having?


James Garfield Gardiner: The work is directed by the entomological branch, as is all work done in connection with insects and grubs. The men are provided for that particular task in that area by the mines and resources department, and it becomes a matter of forestry. I am not sure about the number of men employed in the work, but the work is being carried on.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Has the minister any
information as to the importance of the work and what the consequence is likely to be if this pest is not controlled?


James Garfield Gardiner: If the insect is not controlled it will do a great deal of damage, more particularly to the scenic aspects of that particular area. Much of the pine is jackpine and is not as valuable commercially as some other varieties of pine, but the damaging of any timber anywhere must be controlled if at all possible. I understand that this particular parasite is under control and is not doing as much damage as it would otherwise.


Victor Quelch: I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Agriculture to an advertisement appearing in a recent issue of the Herald of Hanna, Alberta, under the heading "Sylvatic Plague." A map is shown of the area affected, north, east and south, and for further information readers are directed to write either to the department of health or to the department cf entomology. In my opinion this is more a matter for the entomological branch than for [DOT] the department of health. I quote the advertisement :
Warning
All persons residing, or entering within, the areas shown on the accompanying map are hereby informed:
1.	That gophers, and gopher-fleas, infected with sylvatic plague are present in these areas.
2.	That sylvatic plague is a very serious human disease.

3.	That it is possible for man to contact sylvatic plague by handling infected animals or through the bite of an infected flea.
4.	That vaccination against sylvatic plague is not feasible at present.
5.	That the only method of control of sylvatic plague in nature is by the control of the gophers.
6.	That control of gophers requires a systematic gopher poisoning campaign on each farmstead.
7.	That it is imperative that all residents within the infected areas take the following steps to protect their health and welfare.
(a)	Do not handle living or dead gophers. Gophers found dead should be buried.
(b)	A well-organized "gopher control" campaign using a recognized gopher poison should be carried out on each farmstead. Particular attention should be paid to effective poisoning on the land surrounding the buildings.
This disease is going to spread unless effective action is taken to control it. As a matter of fact it has already spread, and the areas affected are in townships from 24 to 30 miles apart. The farmers in these areas are too sparsely settled to carry out an effective poisoning campaign, and if we are to depend upon them to kill the gophers these animals will not be destroyed. I suggest that the army could very well be utilized for this purpose. In the district south of Hanna in the Tilley area a great deal of work is being carried on experimentally with gas, and I should imagine that gas would be the best means that could be used for destroying gophers in an area of that size, which is 66 square miles. These fleas can 'be carried by stock or by human beings. Evidence of this may be found in the fact that men carrying on investigational work travel in a car equipped with a bath and as soon as they have finished their field work they take a bath. But invariably they find a number of fleas on their clothes, and these fleas can give the plague. If the fleas are carried out of the area on live stock the disease may spread to other parts of Canada. I suggest that we should do everything in our power to destroy this menace while it is still confined to a limited area. Would it not be possible for the federal government to cooperate with the province in a systematic campaign for the purpose of destroying the gophers? I repeat, if you depend on the farmers to destroy the animals they will not be destroyed and the plague will gradually spread over various parts of the west.


James Garfield Gardiner: The work that is being done in this direction is being carried on in the health department and not under this department. I am not sure what the arrangements are between the health authorities in the province and the administration here, but work has been going on for two years constantly.

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They have the assistance of our entomologists but the work is really paid for and directed by the Department of Health. I think it would be more helpful to the hon. member if he would discuss it when the estimates of the Minister of Health are before the committee.


Victor Quelch: But the department of health would have to depend on the Department of Agriculture for the campaign to destroy the gophers. It is hardly within the purview of the department of health to poison gophers.


James Garfield Gardiner: The men out there from the department of health are making a study of the disease itself, the means by which it spreads, and methods whereby it can be avoided. The information thus obtained will be reported to those persons who will use it for the purpose of destroying as far as possible the gophers and the fleas.


Victor Quelch: I understand that so far the work done is merely investigational. They have not themselves carried out any work for the destruction of the gophers. They have recommended that the farmers should destroy them but no action has been taken to institute a campaign for the wholesale destruction of these animals. The farmers are not doing it, because in many areas they are operating several thousands of acres and one farmer could not possibly poison such a vast area.


James Garfield Gardiner: Investigational work will be carried on by the health department, but the work necessary to combat the disease would, I should think, be carried out by the provincial authorities rather than by the federal department either of agriculture or of health. Matters having to do with health are largely under the administration of the province, and that is true of the destruction of gophers. It is not under my administration but under .provincial administration; I am quite sure, however, that the authorities in Alberta are alive to the situation and will deal with it, as it is their duty to do. However, if representations are made here and any assistance can be given by any of our people it will always be given.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Science service.
11. Plant protection, $280,591.
Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister t;o give some description, not in detail, of the work which this plant protection branch of science service actually accomplishes? I believe we had an item before us on a previous
occasion, but I am not sure that we have ever had a detailed description of the work for which this vote actually provides.


James Garfield Gardiner: The purpose of the vote is for the inspection and treatment, if required, of imports and exports of plants and plant products for insect pests and plant diseases; in cooperation with the British Ministry of Food, inspection of ships at maritime ports for insect infestation,	and	the supervision
and treatment when required prior to loading of food	and plant products;
in cooperation with the division of entomology the inspection of grain elevators, warehouses, dehydration plants and grain storage ships in great lakes ports for insect pests, and supervision and treatment when necessary; to maintain essential seed supplies inspection in the field, in storage and at shipping points of potatoes entered for certification as seed potatoes, in cooperation with the Department of Trade and Commerce and with the marketing service of the Department of Agriculture; the promotion of the export trade in seed potatoes; potato tuber indexing in greenhouses during winter, to assist growers in the prevention of disease from potato stock; issuance of certificates of health for plants and plant products to meet requirements of importing countries; maintenance of quarantines under the Destructive Insects and Pests Act; the eradication or control of foreign insect and plant diseases, established in Canada, including the Japanese beetle.


Ernest Edward Perley: How much of this amount would be spent on inspecting elevators to ascertain the damage caused by the mite which affects grain before it goes into storage?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not the amount shown separately from the total expenditure. But this particular branch takes care of all studies or investigations made in connection with that kind of thing, from Port William east; and the branch we dealt with a few minutes ago takes care of all the work from Fort William west. So that the whole expenditure would not be made under this vote. Half of it would be made under an earlier vote.


Ernest Edward Perley: A great many elevators were inspected, though, even in the interior.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, many of them.


Thomas Miller Bell: A question was asked the other night with respect to the cultivation of a new species of dandelion.
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James Garfield Gardiner: That comes under the item for experimental farms.


Ernest Edward Perley: When we were in
committee a week ago, discussing item 3, the minister said he would table the report of the advisory committee on agricultural services. He said there was a report, and that before going into committee again it would be tabled.


James Garfield Gardiner: The only thing available is the minutes of the meetings of the advisory committee. However, I shall make a further check.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Experimental farms service.
12. Experimental farms administration, $59,480.
Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw) :: Speaking in the house last March I said that when the agricultural estimates were under consideration I intended to move an amendment asking for the allocation of S500.000 to be appropriated by the dominion government for agricultural research in Canada. Looking over the estimates I see no point at which within the rules I could move an amendment of the kind. Perhaps my purpose will' be better served if, instead of endeavouring to -move an amendment, I initiate a discussion on the subject.


Gordon Graydon: The ihon. member is
not surrendering his position?


John Gordon Ross: No, not a bit;
if the leader of the opposition can show me where my amendment can be properly moved, I shall move it,


Gordon Graydon: That is your job, not
mine.


John Gordon Ross: As I said in
March, in Canada we have not gone very far in the matter of agricultural research. Our experimental farms and our departments of agriculture across the country have done much excellent work in connection with production services, the dissemination of information on cultural methods, the health of animals, the oreeding of animals, plant breeding and many other subjects of great interest to agriculturists in Canada. But as yet we have not done any real work in respect of at least two phases which require careful study. One has to do with agricultural research in order further to develop ways and means of distributing foodstuffs throughout the world, and the other has to do with finding ways and means of using agricultural products and byproducts in industry.

In the United States during the past few years four great agricultural research laboratories have been set up. We would do well to follow the United States in that particular. I hold in my hand an article which deals with the different agricultural research laboratories in the United States. It points out that a northern laboratory was established at Peoria, Illinois, a southern at New Orleans, an eastern at Wyndmoor, near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and a western in southern California, near San Francisco. The article states:
When congress provided for the establishment of these laboratories it made clear the type of research it had in mind, and stated it in the act as follows:
"The Secretary of Agriculture is hereby authorized and directed to establish, equip and maintain four regional research laboratories, one in each major farm producing area, and, at such laboratories, to conduct researches into and to develop new scientific, chemical and technical uses, and new and extended markets and outlets for farm commodities and products and byproducts thereof. Such research and development shall be devoted primarily to those farm commodities in which there are regular or seasonal surpluses, and their products and by-products.
We would do well to follow the example of the United States in this -regard. There are four sections in Canada which should have the services of laboratories. The maritime provinces would compose one section, the central provinces of Ontario and Quebec a second, the three prairie provinces a third, and British Columbia a fourth. In all these areas different types of agriculture are carried on, and there is great scope in all four for work to be done in agricultural research.
First, in regard to foods, we should be able through research to find out and to set up grades and standards which have for their basis complete information from analyses as to the food value of products, their chemical constituents and vitamin values, as -well as their nutritional content. Through research we can also find new methods of transportation, cold storage and the handling of farm products for export; the handling of fresh foods, storage conditions, distribution methods and packaging; quick freezing and dehydration methods and the preserving of foods both commercially and for domestic use.
In these different laboratories I suggest that in the maritime provinces, for instance, research work could be done in connection with fruits, potatoes, legumes, grasses, marsh grasses, plastics and substitutes for building materials. In that laboratory a great deal of very necessary information could be gained by studying fish, fish products, fish oils, sea foods and by-products thereof. In Ontario and

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Quebec work could be done on tobacco, corn, animal fats and oils, skins., hides and tanning, vegetable products, fruits, soybeans, fibre flax, milkweed, milk products, beans and peas. In the western provinces the work might include corn, wheat, coarse grains, oil seeds, a fermentation pilot plant for the purpose of discovering uses of derivatives from different grains, chemical uses of starch, the development of butylene glycol, sugars, glucose and the industrial uses of starch, alcohols and organic acids.


Gordon Graydon: Does that list cover alfalfa?


John Gordon Ross: Not in the
west; that comes under legumes and grasses in the maritimes.


Gordon Graydon: Of course you have alfalfa in Saskatchewan.


John Gordon Ross: Yes, but we grow it for seed more than anything else, while in eastern Canada it is grown more for feed or for sale.


Mr. COLDWELL:: What about bees in the west? The problem is different there than in the east, I believe.


John Gordon Ross: I believe these
different laboratories should cooperate with each other, so that the work being done in one would be made known to the others. I am simply laying out certain things that I think might be dealt with in the different laboratories throughout Canada. In British Columbia they might study apples, all types of fruits both small and large, vegetables, milk and milk products, grasses and legumes, seeds, seed crops and the residue from seed crops which are grown in British Columbia; drug plants, which are starting to be grown there; poultry products and by-products and again fish and sea food by-products. The industrial uses of all these by-products in the various parts of Canada could be worked out in the different laboratories.
I do not intend to detain the committee or the minister longer in regard to this matter. I think we are long past the time in this country, with agriculture such an important industry, when we should have expended large sums of money for the purposes I have mentioned. The amount I asked, $500,000, is a very small amount for this purpose; it is only a start. I intimated also that I thought the different provinces of Canada should help by putting up smaller amounts, and also that industry in Canada should be willing to help by giving perhaps a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to this work, because
they too would benefit greatly by the things which might be found out during the course of the work carried on in these laboratories.
I bring up this matter under the Department of Agriculture, knowing that for years we have had a research bureau here in Ottawa, which has done excellent work. Unfortunately for the agriculturist in Canada, however-and this is my opinion-with the laboratory located here in the centre of the industrial area of Canada, quite properly the men in charge have endeavoured to work out the problems that have been placed upon their desks day by day. Therefore to a large extent the problems of industry have been worked out while the problems of the agriculturist have not been properly placed before the bureau here in Ottawa. I think therefore the only way to have this work carried on is to have a separate branch altogether, with money voted for it separately, in order that agriculture might set up its own research bureaus and carry on its own research work. No doubt certain men who are to-day connected with the national research bureau would be taken into these new bureaus, and they would be very good men because already they have done valuable work for agriculture in Canada. We have never had a set-up under which a sufficient number of scientists could be brought together in a laboratory in Canada to work on agricultural products, knowing that from one year to the next they could carry on and the money would be provided.


Gordon Graydon: Is there any comprehensive work of this kind being carried on in any of the provinces now, to my hon. friend's knowledge?


John Gordon Ross: No great amount, though some work is being done in connection with the research bureau by various agricultural colleges and universities throughout the country.


Gordon Graydon: I had in mind soil testing, for instance.


John Gordon Ross: Yes, that is done in different provinces, but I am endeavouring to visualize the large programme that is very necessary to this country, and I think my hon. friend agrees that we should start now. Only to-day the Prime Minister made a statement in regard1 to food after the war. We are not going far enough in endeavouring to find out the things we should find out right now in order that when this war is over we may be able to produce, dehydrate and transport the foods it will be necessary to send to hungry people in other parts
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of the world. These are all things that can be worked out in laboratories of the type I have mentioned.


Gordon Graydon: Would it be my hon. friend's idea that this scheme should be coordinated with the facilities that exist at the present time in the various provinces?


John Gordon Ross: Absolutely; I
think we should cooperate with anyone in order to get everything possible done. I am sure any laboratories set up by the Department of Agriculture would be only too glad to cooperate with any scientific men throughout the dominion, whether employed by industry or by the provinces.


Gordon Graydon: As I understand the
hon. member's plan, it would have to be a dominion-provincial scheme.


John Gordon Ross: It would have to be started by somebody, and I believe this is the place to start it. In conclusion I want to say that I hope other hon. members, who I know are as much interested as I am in this thing, will stand up in their places this afternoon so that we may have a [DOT] real expression of opinion on this question. The government will then realize that something of this kind should be done in Canada at the present time.


Gordon Graydon: I may have something further to say at a later stage in this discussion. Those of us who come from rural areas are naturally interested in any scheme to improve the position of the farmer. The hon. member referred to this matter earlier in the session, and again on March 17. At that time we were encouraged to think that he was going to make a determined drive upon the government. He took a vigorous stand and said, as reported on page 1330 of Hansard:
When we reach the agricultural estimates it is my intention to move an amendment which I hope the government will see fit to accept.
I am sorry to have seen the member adopt a, compromising attitude this afternoon. When he retreated from the strong position which he took on March 17-perhaps it was because it was March 17 that he took that position -I would have preferred that he did so because under the rules of the house a private member is not permitted to move an amendment which will increase the estimates. However, evidently that is not his idea, because he has just taken the position that he will do what he has done so many times-make a recommendation to the government.
I should have liked the hon. member to give us further particulars of his plan, to which no doubt he has given considerable

study. Over the years there has been a gradual development in agriculture along the lines of technical research, and farming to-day is a vastly different thing from what it was yesterday. The agricultural industry, however, is a long way behind many other industries in connection with the return obtained for the labour and management and capital invested. These are matters which can be dealt wdth at a more appropriate time. Farmers and farm labour have seen fit to trek to other lines of endeavour where there are more appropriate returns. Having that thought definitely in mind, the question of a greater production from the same amount of labour becomes a matter of considerable importance.
The question raised by the hon. member with respect to scientific experiments and varied uses of farm products is an important one, but how best we can accomplish it is something which will have to receive considerable study. We must get the best out of any plan that is proposed. Many hon. members who are farmers no doubt will be able to express themselves better than I and from a greater experience, but I think they will agree that in many instances the farmer who has made the most money or has achieved the greatest material success has been the man who has engaged in some specialized type of farming which perhaps has not been subject to the same competition as other lines. This has been demonstrated to me by several farmers whom I know well, many old neighbours of ours on the farm. Keeping that definitely in mind, it seems to me that there is a place for the scheme the hon. member proposed.
I am not finding fault with the minister or with his splendid department, but the fact is that agricultural research is a long way behind. More consideration will have to be given, perhaps under the leadership of the dominion government, to scientific farm research. When the hon. member was speaking I threw in one or two interjections with regard to the position of the existing facilities in the various provinces which have been attempting on a smaller scale to deal wdth the problems mentioned by the hon. member. In carrying out a scheme such as is envisaged by the hon. member I think it is essential that the department of the government more particularly involved should confer with the provinces in order that there may be proper coordination and cooperation.
Agriculture has been behind other industries in scientific and laboratory experiments. There is a good reason for this. In many instances industry has been in position to

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spend considerable sums of private money upon scientific research for the development of the particular industry. But in the past, and at pres'ent, our farmers have not been and are not in that position. Most farmers have a difficult enough time now to get along, to pay their debts, to educate their children, to carry on their normal pursuits of life without having anything extra left over to undertake any experimentation or laboratory work. I think all of us can recall instances where particular industries have made considerable progress along scientific lines, but unfortunately agriculture has not had the same opportunities.
If I understood correctly the theme of the hon. member's address this afternoon it is that we should provide for agriculture the same opportunities that are given to industry in order to bring about greater returns. At the proper time the minister and his assistants will be able to give us the necessary technical information. Everything possible should be done to help the farmer along these lines and to at least put him in a position nearer to that of industry. I know of no reason why the farmers of this country should not enjoy the same advantages and opportunities as other industries. On these general lines I am strongly in favour of the suggestion which has been made by the hon. member for Moose Jaw. I think my views are stronger, if possible, than his on this subject, and I was sorry that he started off with such high power only to land up in low gear, as he did this afternoon.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) is going to place our joint view before the house in order to shorten the discussion. I shall content myself by saying that we strongly support the request that has been made by the member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) that a special appropriation be made for conducting this important experimental work. He has quoted from United States records showing to some extent what has been done in that country, but to save time he quoted, I think, only in part. We know the tremendous amount of work that can be done along this line, and we are glad to support in every respect the request he made this afternoon.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Mr. Chairman, I think the member for Moose Jaw has placed the house and the country in his debt by opening up this important subject. I recall that during the early thirties, when wheat was selling at the lowest price in history, the federal government of the day, assisted by the Saskatchewan government, spent large sums of money to bring people from the drought area to the
north country to produce more wheat. If half a million dollars had been spent at that time in trying to devise new uses for agricultural products something much more useful would have been accomplished, because many people who were established on farms in the west during the thirties have left the farms and the investment made has been a complete loss in many cases to the federal and provincial authorities.
Members of the committee who would like to have up-to-date information on this interesting subject of chemurgy I feel sure could obtain it from the Saskatchewan Industrial Development board, which issues publications from time to time. I hold in my hand one of their circulations which contains a report of an address given by Thomas B. Hill, Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Development, Olympia, Washington. For the benefit of those who are not familiar with this interesting subject, he explains at the outset what chemurgy is all about. He says:
Farm chemurgy is chemistry at work on farm products. Heretofore there has been something very scientific about the word to the lay public, and the average person has been inclined to shy away from it. But chemurgy is neither too scientific, nor is there anything mysterious about it. As a matter of fact it is thoroughly practical, and the public in becoming familiar with it is finding out that it means the utilization in industry of surplus and waste crops, and the development of specialty crops.
He goes on to tell of the place of the soybean in our modem economy, and says:
Less than ten years ago practically no soybeans were being produced in this country. So rapidly was it developed as an industrial raw material, that in 1941, 5,855,000 acres were devoted to the crops, with a production of over 100,000,000 bushels. So great had become the demand for soybean products that for 1942 the farmers of the United States were urged to plant 9,000,000 acres to the crop. Here we have nine million acres of farm land devoted to a crop that was unknown ten years ago. The crushing of the beans to obtain the oil and meal, and the manufacturing of the various by-products, constitute a large industrial operation.
I know that a good deal of experimental work has been done in Canada, but what has been accomplished in the United States shows how important it is to spend a considerable sum of money on experimental work.
Here is another interesting fact given in Mr. Hill's address:
Comparatively few people know that a fur made from casein, a milk product, is being used in place of rabbit fur in the manufacture of men's felt hats. The extent to which it has thus been used in the last two or three years is astounding. There has been a shortage of rabbit fur, which comes largely from England, Scotland, New Zealand and Australia, because of the war. It is estimated that 50,000,000 felt
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hats were made from casein in 1941. Now that a shortage in milk is developing, chemurgy no doubt will produce some other product to take the place of rabbit and casein fur.
I also have here the publication "So That Man May Prosper", from which the hon. member for North Battleford quoted extensively the other night when speaking of synthetic rubber. I shall not take time to make any comment on the reply which the Minister of Munitions and Supply made to the statements in this publication, but I would draw attention to three or four developments dealt with by the author, Mr. Dyson Carter, in this publication. He of course spends a good deal of time in discussing industrial alcohol and I feel sure that the future will demonstrate that wheat and other agricultural products can be used successfully in the manufacture of synthetic rubber.
Mr. Dyson Carter also has an interesting article on plastics. He says:
Hundreds of thousands of tons of straw and similar material goes to waste on our farms every year-the largest garbage pile in the country. Several processes have been developed to make plastics from straw. Iowa State College scientists have perfected such a plastic m several forms, with the cost as low as 44 cents a pound. This is about half the price of the cheapest plastic now on the market. The Iowa material can be made into practically any shape or size of product. In large slabs it can compete with the better grades of lumber for construction purposes.
There is also a section on cloth, from which I quote:
In one process developed by the Ford Motor Company scientists, soybean meal (after the oil has been extracted) is chemically treated so that it becomes liquid. This liquid is handled just as liquid rayon-it is sprayed into a chemical bath, in which the fine jets of liquid instantly turn into firm threads. These threads can be made to resemble either silk or wool. The "soy threads" are at present being woven and knitted, and the cloth is being marketed in the United States for hat felts, suitings, upholstery fabrics, etc.
He tells of several other developments in connection with soybean industries and of new uses for flax and deals with dandelion rubber. Of the latter he says:
For twenty years Russian scientists and practical farmers have studied the problem of growing natural rubber in cold climates. The tropical rubber tree will not survive. But there are other plants that produce rubber. Among these are Guayule and Kok-Sagyz.
I understand that the minister intends to make a statement on the problem of growing rubber, to which Mr. Dyson Carter devotes half a page in this publication.
Furfural is also discussed, and several miscellaneous projects, such as the wallboard industry, the manufacture of new types of

cements, fuel for heating rural homes. The subjects which are discussed by Mr. Dyson Carter in this publication suggest a wide field for study if an appropriation were made such as the hon. member for Moose Jaw suggests. I think he is very modest in asking for only half a million dollars. That does not seem to go very far in these days. When one thinks of the future of western Canada and the importance of finding new uses for agricultural products grown on those plains, the Minister of Agriculture would be wise, I think, to bring in an estimate next year, or as the hon. member for Vancouver East suggests, a supplementary estimate this year, appropriating at least half a million dollars for the purpose of carrying on this experimental work. I am sure that an appropriation such as the hon. member for Moose Jaw proposed would meet with the support of members on this side and of members on the government benches.


Mr. WOOD:: I wish to support the suggestion which the hon. member for Moose Jaw has made to the minister. The speech which the hon. member for Moose Jaw made earlier in the session aroused a great deal of interest in my community. I had many comments upon it, all to the effect that for a downright, honest, practical suggestion that actually would bring results to the farmer, the suggestion made by the hon. member for Moose Jaw took the cake. I am passing this compliment on to him because I know that the people of Brant were much interested in the contribution he made in this speech. It revived their belief that those who are championing the cause of agriculture include at least one man who has touched upon something which gives ground for hope in the future. Since the hon. member made that speech I have discussed the problem with many persons who are interested in the subject. In my opinion there is a great opportunity for those who are prepared to interest themselves in finding new outlets for the products of the farm. I know of no better way of encouraging agriculture.
May I say that I am not sure I agree with the leader of the opposition in his remark that the only prosperous farmer is the farmer who specializes.


Gordon Graydon: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not what I said.


George Ernest Wood: I understood the hon. gentleman to say that in the great majority of cases the prosperity of our rural people depends upon specialist farming.


Gordon Graydon: No; I said that those who interest themselves in special lines of farming

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find themselves in perhaps a little better position to be assured of better returns than those who do not.


George Ernest Wood: Well, I think the hon. member and I are very much on common ground. It is true that some specialty farmers have made an unqualified success, but it will be found, I believe, that there have been more financial disasters among those who, in pursuing some special line, put all their eggs in one basket. From experience in my own community I would rather say that the average well-to-do farmer is the man engaged in mixed farming, because if one line fails him he has some other to fall back on. No doubt there are exceptions to all rules; I do not know that either my own viewpoint or that of the leader of the opposition proves invariably correct. There are specialists who have made successes as well as those who have made failures; probably the same applies in the case of mixed farming.
The hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) spoke of the value of straw, and suggested that it was one of the articles which in this country is most often wasted. So far as Ontario is concerned, my view is that it is a mistake to let straw leave the farm. I do not believe you can get any return from straw which you dispose of that will compensate for its value when applied to the soil.


Gordon Graydon: I believe everyone in
eastern Canada will agree with what the hon. member says on that particular point. Actually most of the farm leases contain a clause that straw must not leave the farm. As my hon. friend knows, there is very good reason for that provision.


George Ernest Wood: I appreciate the reference of the leader of the opposition to the legal aspect of this matter. There is no doubt that the purpose of inserting that clause in the contract is to protect the fertility of the farm.
Attention was called in the agriculture committee this morning to what has been achieved by disposing of a by-product of the flax mills to the pulp mills, thereby converting 500 carloads this year into various grades of paper. There is one case where research has made use of something which would otherwise have gone to waste. It leads me to recommend to the minister that, in case a research bureau is decided upon, it should cooperate with industry, which already has many research laboratories of its own. A young chemical engineer in one of the food companies whose parent company is in the United States drew my attention to the great possibilities which exist in
cooperation with industry, and I believe that industry would welcome the opportunity to cooperate with the government. If we can set them a specific job to do, as they have the necessary equipment and very considerable experience, we may possibly obtain results which will benefit not only the farmer and the industrialist but the nation at large. That is a field wherein we can start something immediately, without incurring any great additional cost, by simply utilizing facilities which are already available.
There are other directions in which such a bureau could enlarge its efforts. I have often wondered why farmers, while so anxious to purchase labour-saving machinery for the production of field crops, completely neglect opportunities of labour saving arrangements in so designing their buildings as to facilitate the doing of work which has to be done every morning, noon and night in the care and feeding of live stock. It seems to me that we have a great field there for planned agricultural architecture. Some people may be inclined to say, let the farmer erect his buildings any way he wants them; it is he who has to do the chores. But in my experience most farmers are only too glad to receive suggestions from those who can assist them, and I believe they would welcome architectural designs for application to farm buildings which would assist them in feeding their stock with less labour and take some of the drudgery out of their lives. In that way, this particular bureau might make an important contribution to the happiness of life on the farm.
I wish now only to emphasize my appreciation, and that of many others with whom I have spoken, of the contribution which the hon. member for Moose Jaw has made to this subject. We hope it will bear fruit.


Mr. JAQUES:: At the risk of appearing
somewhat old fashioned, or even reactionary, I should like to express myself on the subject which is under discussion. I believe I have some qualifications, because before beginning to farm in Canada now some forty years ago, I happen to have studied analytical chemistry in England. If I have not the respect for science that some members seem to have, as a solution for our troubles, it may be the result of my long experience. I remember a few years ago wandering through our experimental farm here in Ottawa and coming on some men in a laboratory. I asked them what they were doing, and they told me they were experimenting with cider. They were trying to make a really good cider with Canadian apples. I asked them if there was
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any difficulty about that. They said, "We have tried apples from different parts of the country, from Prince Edward Island to Vancouver island, but so far we have not been able to find an apple which when fermented will retain the flavour of the apple." They had a number of samples of cider and they kindly gave me a glass. They asked me my opinion of it, and I said, "Well, it is a long time since I left home, but as far as I can remember that seems to me pretty fair cider." One man said to me, "Yes, that is all right; but one-third of the apples came from England." I said to him, "I know something of analytical chemistry and I don't think you will find a solution to that problem in any test-tube." He admitted that he did not think they would. I said, "I will give you another instance. You cannot make Devonshire cream outside Devonshire." Probably my hon. friend will bear me out in this. This scientist on the experimental farm said, "Yes; that is true, I know it, because I lived in Somerset before coming to Canada and we used to make Devonshire cream and sell it. You can make it in the west of England but nowhere else. I thought I would make it when I got to Canada and that I might do very well out of it. I tried it in Nova Scotia. They can make Devonshire cream, yes, but it has no flavour." The same in British Columbia. Friends of mine are Devonshire people and they make Devonshire cream. It looks the same, but there is no flavour. That is the fault of it.
I mention these things just to show that science is not the entire answer to these problems. Agriculture is more than a science; it is an art. People seem to think that we know more about farming through science than our forefathers did a hundred years ago, but in my humble opinion we have forgotten a great deal that they knew then and I think we have to go back and rediscover a lot of the knowledge they had.
I understand that in England it has been rediscovered that by and large, generally speaking, the health of human beings depends more than anything else on the food they eat, the quality of the food; and that again depends on the health of the soil in which that food is grown. You cannot maintain the 'proper health of the soil through chemical manure. I understand they tried increasing the yield of tobacco in Cuba-of course that is not food-by means of chemical manures, and immediately the quality of the tobacco was found to be very much lower. They are coming to the conclusion in England and elsewhere I suppose, that we shall have to go back to the immemorial customs of China

and India, where the soil has been farmed not for half a century but for a thousand years. It is done by the age-old method of returning to the soil what is taken out of it. But that by the way.
I do not wish to throw cold water on the idea, and I think there is room for a scheme of the kind which the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) has put before the house. But I am wondering whether the main idea behind it is not really economic rather than chemical. Is it not the idea that by turning food or the edible products of the soil into inedible products such as rubber-which I think is pretty hard chewing-it will be possible to raise prices through overcoming the so-called abundance of agricultural products? To me, if this research station is established it would seem desirable that at the same time and perhaps in the same building there be included some really new economists, not the orthodox or even eminent economists, but some really scientific economists who will see what faults there are in the present economic system whereby, though there is a so-called overproduction of food, millions of people in the world are at the same time underfed and undernourished.
The main problem is economic rather than chemical. What we have to do is to increase the purchasing power of the people so that at least they can consume food to the limits of their desires or of our powers to produce. I do not altogether feel comfortable about the idea of turning edible products into chemical substances. I realize of course that in war time, when there is an emergency, everything must give way to the demands of war. You may say that a few million bushels of wheat would provide us with a certain quantity of rubber, but that would be only the beginning. I wonder what the development would be in a hundred years time if we pursued these lines, where the soil is put to the use of producing and supplying industry rather than human stomachs.
I am not comfortable about that and I rose simply to make these observations to the committee. I want to emphasize my belief that the main problem before agriculture, although I do not know that the minister will agree with me, is economic rather than scientific. If the farmer is provided with a really good market and satisfactory prices he can be left to find his own solution for the raising of the best food in the best possible way.


Mr. LEADER:: It was not my intention to say anything on this very important subject. What I have to say could have been said on another item. But what the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) has brought before

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the committee, namely, the subject of agricultural research in all its phases, is of very considerable importance, and perhaps I would do well to say a few words. I had intended to say something respecting the improvement of the health and state of our pure-bred cattle in general. Possibly that is a subject which might well be discussed now.
I listened to the hon. member for Wetaski-win (Mr. Jaques) when he spoke about Devonshire cream. That is something I had never heard of until about a month ago. However I had some of this product known as Devonshire cream at the house of an Englishman who lives just north of Winnipeg. It was made from the milk of Aberdeen Angus cows I had sold him just a few years earlier.
We have in Hull an institution known as the animal diseases research institute. Undoubtedly this branch has done some good work, but in my opinion it has not advanced as rapidly as it .should have, nor has it dealt as extensively as it should have with conditions pertaining to live stock. My concern to-day is with a disease known as Bang's disease, or contagious abortion in cattle. I have had many years' experience in the cattle business, and particularly in the pure-bred branch of the business. Every breeder knows that sometimes he will run up against this menace. Not only is it a menace to cattle but it is also a menace to the health of one's own family and to people in general. It is, therefore, of the utmost importance that something be done to find a real, practical and efficient method of ascertaining the cause and finding some remedy for its eradication.
For -the information of hon. members I should like to record an experience I had. Some years ago I sold a consignment of cattle, subject to test for Bang's disease. Some of those cattle reacted. Of course hon. members will understand that those cattle were not taken; they remained in my herd. I was not very much concerned about that, because they had been one hundred per cent producers each year. Some of them were nine years old and had produced as many as seven calves. The fact that the sale was cut, however, did cause me some concern, and is the concern of producers who are breeding cattle to-day. Because unless one has a certified Bang's-disease-free herd, or the herd passes the test for Bang's disease, he cannot do much business. One cannot do business either on the other side of the boundary line, or in some of the provinces in Canada. There are breeders throughout Canada who will not buy cattle unless they have passed successfully the Bang's disease test.
I wanted to do a little experimenting. For years I had been reading about the ravages of Bang's disease, and the attempts of different breeders and different governments to try to control them. I had read that in the experiment being made, blood samples had been taken from cattle, that the identical samples had been sent to several laboratories, and that the results of tests had been different in each case. I wondered just what confidence breeders could have in a test of that kind. In carrying out my experiment I asked my son, when in one year he was having our cattle tested for tuberculosis, to have a sample of blood taken from two cows which had reacted two years earlier. I took those two samples, sending one to Doctor Savage, our own animal pathologist in Winnipeg, and another to the laboratory in Hull. My purpose was to have a check, to ascertain whether the two laboratories would show the same results on the test. In regard to the test taken in Winnipeg-and it will be remembered that a test had been taken two or three years earlier- the positive finding was confirmed. The same day I sent exactly the same blood to the pathologist in Hull, Doctor E. A. Watson, and this was the reply I received:
Messrs. Harry Leader & Son,
Portage la Prairie,
Manitoba.
Dear sir,
I am in receipt of two blood samples submitted by you and wish to advise you that blood tests, for the diagnosis of Bang's disease, are conducted at this institute under the following circumstances only:
A.	Cattle in herds accepted by the health of animals division, production services, as under their supervision for the control and eradication of Bang's disease; and cattle as replacements or additions to such herds.
B.	Cattle selected for export from the Dominion of Canada.
C.	Cattle selected for shows and exhibitions at which a blood test is a necessary requirement for their admittance.
Yours truly,
E. A. Watson,
Dominion Animal Pathologist.
I can see no reason why they could not have tested the samples in Hull. I went to a lot of trouble to send -those samples by special mail delivery, so that they would reach Hull in plenty of time. However, the reply I received was that they did not have authority to test the samples. I believed they did. If the laboratory at Hull had confirmed the test in Winnipeg my confidence would have -been revived. If the tests had been different, as is indicated in what I have read, then I would
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have been just as anxious as I am to-day to see that we get something which would be more workable.
Breeders are becoming more and more concerned about Bang's disease. They are willing to cooperate with this or any other government in any workable plan for the protection of cattle. I- do not know what the annual loss is in Canada, but it has been estimated that the annual loss in the United States from the ravages of Bang's disease is from $50,000,000 to $175,000,000. Not only that, but as I pointed out earlier the disease is a menace to public health. Many hon. members will have read of the death of Edsel Ford. It is reported that he died at Detroit from undulant fever, which is contracted through drinking milk from cows affected with Bang's disease. .
I do not wish to take any more of the time of the committee. We have in this disease the worst known menace to the cattle industry. Certainly it is a subject which should be investigated, and one in connection with which we should do all the research possible. I endorse the suggestion of the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) and I hope the government will apportion the greatest possible amount of money to bring knowledge to bear on the subject, in an effort to find some workable solution.


Ernest Edward Perley: When the estimates were first discussed I asked under what item it might be possible for the hon. member for Moose Jaw to offer his proposal, and it was pointed out that the discussion might be had under the item for experimental farms. My interest was aroused after hearing the hon. member on March 17, and I am sure that when he rose to-day we were looking forward to a most interesting speech. I will admit there was some interest in it, and this may yet develop to be a most interesting and profitable afternoon. However, as the leader of the opposition has said, some of us were a little disappointed, because we thought the hon. member would give more details in regard to some questions connected with possible production in western Canada, and that he would outline what has been done in that part of Canada in the last two or three years. I know the hon. member has been fully alive to changes in agricultural production methods, and I believe he has been doing a considerable amount of experimental work. I rather expected, however, that we would hear from the hon. member somewhat more respecting the production of certain cereals, seeds and the like from which oil and its by-products might be produced.

Perhaps he was leaving that for another occasion; perhaps he was rather modest and did not want to boast about what he is doing on his own farm, but I believe he is doing a great deal. I understand that he has nearly five hundred acres of sunflowers this year, and I wish him luck not only in raising the crop but in harvesting it; for I understand that a good deal of his farm is under water at the present time.
Early in the course of his remarks the hon. member quoted from a report showing what has been done in the United States. He also made reference to the fact that agriculture in Canada is very much diversified, so that the farmers of the east have .problems different from those of the west.
I thought the leader of the opposition made a pertinent remark when he said that in all parts of Canada there were farmers who would be successful if they would specialise . in certain lines of agriculture best suited to their district. I know there are farmers in the west to-day who are always a little ahead of their neighbours. My dad always told me, "Boy, it doesn't matter what season of the year it is; always be a week ahead of your neighbour. Start to seed three or four days before you think it is time to seed, and probably you will have your seeding completed while the other fellow is waiting for the ground to dry after a rain." I think if some of the farmers of Ontario had taken that advice this spring they might have been better off.


Mr. MARTIN:: Oh, you should have seen the fields.


Ernest Edward Perley: The hon. member would not know wheat from apples, so that he need not say anything.


Paul Joseph James Martin: But I know wet ground when I see it.


Ernest Edward Perley: I think the same thing
applies at harvest time. I know farmers in the west who are always finished their harvesting about a week before their neighbours, who are hauling out their grain when the other fellow is just beginning to harvest his. So that no matter what type of farming you are carrying on it is important to be four or five days or a week ahead of your neighbour; then you will have greater success.
The hon. member went on to deal with certain cereals, seeds and so on. We in the agriculture committee are now considering many of these matters; there are interesting developments in that committee each day, and we are obtaining a great deal of useful

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information. Perhaps the minister will not care to repeat some of the information that is being brought out there, but we are getting it in any event. The hon. member went on to say that he was asking for $500,000. He has not moved any amendment to the estimate, and of course we understand that he cannot do so; I think the public got the idea through the press that he could move an amendment, but we know the situation. However, he has told us that he is going to ask the minister to give consideration to his request, and I hope the minister will favourably consider the suggestions advanced by the hon. member. Perhaps during the course of this afternoon we may have a statement from the minister on that point; it would be most interesting. We should be glad to hear how the minister views the proposals advanced by the hon. member for Moose Jaw, and what he proposes to do about them.
I think hon. members will agree that we have had some good men as ministers of agriculture; Martin Burrell, Doctor Tolmie, Doctor Motherwell, Mr. Weir, and the present minister. Each in turn has tried to keep up with the times and has done much to develop agriculture in this country. If some hon. members of this house, instead of going home week-ends, would spend their Saturdays at the experimental farm here, they would obtain a great deal of useful information. Just before Easter I spent a most profitable afternoon at that farm with the hon. member for Moose Jaw. We were well received; we saw some of the experiments that were being carried on with regard to cereals, with regard to production, with regard to early maturing grain, and that sort of thing. We also went through the laboratories. I think the hon. member for Moose Jaw will agree that each of us learned a good deal on that occasion. The next morning at breakfast in the restaurant in this building I suggested to some hon. members that if they knew how many proteins and vitamins were in the bowls of porridge they were eating, they would be pleased, and I said the way to obtain that information was to go out to the experimental farm.
That was just on the side; I was endeavouring to show that all ministers of agriculture have kept abreast of the times and have done a great deal to help agriculture. The work done in developing early maturing wheat has put millions of dollars into the pockets of the farmers of the west, and more millions have been saved by the practical elimination of rust. Those are just some of the things that have been done at the experimental farm here in Ottawa.
I do not know that it is necessary to occupy more of the time of the committee. I am entirely in accord with the suggestion advanced by the hon. member, which I hope will receive the minister's approval. It may not be possible to set aside $500,000 for this purpose right now, but if part of it could be set aside the work could at least be started. I have one further suggestion to offer. I believe that at Brandon, and particularly at Indian Head, in Saskatchewan, we have two of the finest experimental farms in Canada, where excellent work is being done. I would suggest that some of the research work mentioned by the hon. member for Moose Jaw might be undertaken at the farm at Indian Head; it is near the minister's home, and in my constituency, and he is well acquainted with it. So far as soil erosion is concerned it is the best in Canada; we have all the facilities there for carrying on a great deal of the work, and I believe we should take advantage of them. I hope we may hear from the minister before we rise at six o'clock, in order to learn what he proposes to do and how he regards the suggestion advanced by the hon. member for Moose Jaw.


The CHAIRMAN:: If the committee will
allow me, quite a number of members rose simultaneously, so that I am going to give the list of speakers I have at the present time: the hon. member for Macdonald, the hon. member for North Battleford, the hon. member for Macleod, the hon. member for Medicine Hat, the hon. member for Lisgar.


Mr. REID:: I rise to a point of order. It
is something new when the Chairman can rise in committee and give the list of members who are to speak. I think it is unfair. The Chairman probably did not see all the members, but he has singled out four or five of them. I take strong exception to the Chairman of this committee showing any preference in this way.


Ernest Edward Perley: There is only one of the
official whips in the house-


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I am sorry I put it
in that way, but I leave it to the judgment of the committee. As the hon. member for New Westminster knows, I have no list.


Thomas Reid: You read one.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: At least ten members
rose at the same time; and it will be understood how difficult it is to satisfy everyone; so I thought this would be the best way. There is no partiality as far as I am concerned; if this is not satisfactory to the committee I shall leave it as it was before.
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Thomas Reid: If you are going to carry on
from a list you might well do so all evening.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: I believe you are
doing very well, Mr. Chairman; just keep right with it.


Mr. WEIR:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to say a few words. I am sure the committee is indebted to the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Ross) for bis energy and the research he must have carried on to develop his topic. This topic is commanding wide interest throughout the country and, from the discussion that has taken place, it would seem to be commanding considerable interest in this committee. I am sure the hon. member will be gratified to know that he has finally got the leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) to fall in line with the idea he is promoting.
The item now being considered has to do with experimental farms. I am not concerned with, nor have I any definite point of view about the type of research institution that might be set up, but I contend that many research activities can be earned on within our experimental farm system. I think it can be said that the discussion which has taken place this afternoon has not cast any reflection upon the activities of our experimental farm system, it has simply suggested further additions to the work of our farms. Agriculture in Canada owes a great deal to the research work and scientific developments of our experi-nental farm system. I can remember marquis vheat and the contribution it made to the ivealth and prosperity of Canada for a number jf years. That was a result of the research activities of our experimental farms. There is also the work that has been done with respect to rust-resistant wheat. This has taken much of the speculation out of the growing of wheat in western Canada. These and other research activities have been of far-reaching importance to the industry.
These activities are continuing, and they should continue. Further efforts in this regard are needed, particularly with respect to other grains. I think it can be said that some success is being achieved along these lines. There is still room for the development of new varieties. All this work requires institutions of this kind. The hon. member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Leader) raised an important point with respect to live stock. Here again our experimental farms are in a position to render a wide variety of services in connection with breeding, feeding practices and other promotional work.
The province of Manitoba is fortunate in having tiwo experimental farms. The older farm is at Brandon, but there is another one in
[The Chairman.]
southern Manitoba, at Morden. This is a horticultural farm, and its activities are largely concerned with promoting the production of fruits, vegetables, trees and things of that kind. Just in passing I should like to say a word about our experimental farms in general, based upon what I have seen at the local institution in southern Manitoba. This institution is largely used by the farmers of the surrounding districts. They gather there to see what is going on. I think it can foe said that this institution has done more than anything else in that part of the province to promote the growing of shelter-belts around farm homes, and it has given leadership in the production of small fruits and certain types of vegetables which would not have been undertaken otherwise. It has also done considerable work in the distribution of new varieties. Like other institutions, this one is well staffed with people who can meet the public and who give first-class service to those who go there for information.
Coming back to what the hon. member for Moose Jaw said, I think what he had in mind was to arouse public opinion to the idea that more research is necessary in the interests of agriculture. I am sure he will feel satisfied if he has been successful in arousing public opinion in that regard. If he has arrested the attention of the committee and the country,, he can live in hopes of seeing something come out of the suggestion he has made. I should like to go a step farther in this connection and indicate the direction in which public opinion points. I have a statement here which I wish to read, as follows:
No matter how gloomy the outlook, I never cut one single penny from the budget of our research department. . . . The reason for that is something that any modern industrialist knows and understands. The research of to-day is what will be keeping a soundly managed industry alive and healthy five and ten years in the future.
That statement was made by Mr. Walter P. Chrysler, one of the leading industrialists of the country. I have here an advertisement entitled, "Look up, Mr. Farmer." While I am not particularly interested in promoting the wares of the people who put out this advertisement, I think-


Gordon Graydon: What are their wares?


William Gilbert Weir: I am not sure that I know, but I shall refer in a moment to the particular part in which I am interested. The advertisement reads:
And from that alcohol came the rubber for the tires, the explosives in the bomb racks, the plastic for the shatterproof windshields. You

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couldn't point to a square foot of those planes that isn't somehow dependent on high-proof alcohol.
Then in smaller type it states:
Alcohol for war is used in the manufacture of high explosives, synthetic rubber, drugs and medicines, photographic film, lacquers and varnishes, drawing inks, compasses and other navigation instruments, plastics, shatterproof glass and many other products. All of the Seagram plants in Canada and the United States are engaged one hundred per cent in the production of high-proof alcohol for war.


Gordon Graydon: Does my hon. friend intend to table the document from which he is reading?


William Gilbert Weir: I shall be glad to send it over to my hon. friend.


Gordon Graydon: I did not ask for that, I asked if my hon. friend was going to table it.


William Gilbert Weir: I can table it. I also have a publication which was put out by the Canadian chamber of commerce. The part having to do with domestic markets for farm products reads as follows:
The development of synthetic industrial products, based upon recent advances in chemical knowledge (we refer, particularly, to plastics in this connection), may create a new demand for certain crops, hitherto raised only for food; and so may reduce to some extent the size of our agricultural surpluses.
At least for some years to come, the demand for domestically produced vegetable oils may provide the Canadian farmer with worthwhile opportunities; and it is possible that some of the resulting production (that of the soy bean, for example) may find a permanent place in his programme of cultivation.
I refer to these merely to indicate the trend of public opinion. I obtained some satisfaction in looking back into Hansard of some years ago. At that time I made some reference to this matter, and I should like to refer to one part of my remarks. I quote from page 523 of Hansard of February 1 1939, as follows:
Another thing pointed out was that agriculture in this country was competing not only with the agriculture of other countries, but also with the scientists of other countries. Germany, for instance, is producing from milk casein a material that is a suitable substitute for wool. A large percentage of her clothing both ordinary and high-grade is now being produced from forest products. As illustrative of what industry can do for agriculture, I was fascinated by a statement made by Mr. Henry Ford at the chemurgic conference in 1935. He said he was using in his factory the following agricultural products:	60,000,000 pounds of cotton;
500,000 bushels of corn; 2,500,000 gallons of molasses; 3,200,000 pounds of wool; 1,500,000 square feet of leather; 350,000 pounds of mohair; and an almost unlimited supply of soya beans.
I quote that to indicate some of the activities that have been undertaken. I shall not take the time to refer to other suggestions and observations that were made at that time because reference has already been made to them, to some extent, this afternoon.
As I see the picture, there are two points of view with respect to the need for more agricultural research. First, there is the necessity of providing additional food supplies. From the other point of view there is a need for replacing certain farm products which are not now being produced in the same volume on account of the changes which mechanization has brought about in agriculture. Agriculture, like industry, has become mechanized in this country, and I do not think anyone would take the position that agriculture should not have the advantage of mechanization if it wants it. But agriculture in becoming mechanized has had three things happen to it. In the first place, it has lost what was a potential very substantial horse market. Second1, it has lost a hay and oats market, which was really the power for the production of agricultural products. Third, it has increased its efficiency in production. That being so, I think we should not hesitate for a moment to utilize all our energies in developments that may be undertaken to replace what we have lost through the changes that mechanization has brought about, and if we can by scientific research develop means whereby farm products can be utilized more and more for power purposes in agriculture, it means added farm income for the agriculturists of this country, apart altogether from the food supplies that may be developed from this research work. So that I look at it from the two points of view and I say to the minister that it seems logical that encouragement should be given to developments of that kind.
We have already heard a good deal about the production of alcohol and rubber, and within the last few days we have seen some controversy develop with regard to the costs involved. Surely here is an opportunity to find out the exact position. I fear that too often we look upon wheat as the only cereal from which alcohol may be produced-and wheat of the high-grades costing eighty cents a bushel. I think it is possible to produce alcohol from other grain products than wheat which would change materially the cost picture.
One could go on and say many other things with respect to research activities that may be undertaken, but one hesitates to do so at this stage. I shall simply say, as was mentioned by one hon. member who spoke
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a little earlier this afternoon, that we have had some gratifying results in the agriculture committee in finding out the methods by which some of these activities of the Department of Agriculture were being undertaken. We are finding out at the same time many of the problems of development. All that speaks well for the suggestion brought forward this afternoon by the hon. member for Moose Jaw. At present it looks to me as though public opinion will recognize the necessity for additional research activities particularly in connection with agriculture, and if that is so, I hope that the minister when he brings in his supplementary estimates, or earlier if it is possible for him to do so, will take kindly to the suggestions that have been urged upon him from all sides of the house this afternoon.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: I do not think I have very much to add to what has already been said this afternoon. I only wish it had been possible for the hon. member for Moose Jaw to move his motion, because I for one would have been most ready to support it. Many letters have come to me not only from my own part of Saskatchewan but from other areas of that province in support of the idea which the hon. member for Moose Jaw has brought before the committee this afternoon. The opinion which is expressed by some of our western people is that already we are terribly late in our research activities. I know that for some months now I have been in correspondence with the agricultural research laboratory in the United States and have been receiving from them their regular bulletins. If only I had the time to read all the material they send me I would possibly be better informed, but like other hon. members I find it an impossibility to wade through all this very valuable material. I only wish that time permitted me to do it, because then I would be in a far better position to speak about these matters.
The opinion I gather from letters which come to me from Saskatchewan is that there is a fear in the minds of our people that immediately upon the cessation of war we shall find, as a result of the experimentation which has already been carried on in the United States and their valuable research activities, that the markets of this countiy will be flooded by all kinds of new materials which have been made from the various resources of the United States. We are a very similar country to the United States, having the same kind of land and the same kinds of products; and if only we were in a position to develop our own industries-I think more particularly of western Canada, coming

from that part of the country, but without doubt it applies to eastern Canada also-we would be in a position to give employment to our people. I know the problems that confront us in the reconstruction committee in finding employment for our men when they return home, and it seems to me that here in the field of research we have one avenue which we should explore to the very limit. Only the other morning in the agriculture committee Dean Shaw was telling us that they have already started to get the farmers in one particular area to go in for the growing of milkweed. He stated definitely that it was necessary to have these farmers in just one small area where they would be close to the mill which was to be used to extract the juices from which rubber would be produced. I do not know whether Ontario is the only province where this is being done at the present time, but if this plant is as hardy as the Russians say it is-they say it will grow anywhere, in semi-arid regions and up in the far north-we in the west should have an opportunity to develop it.
After all, eastern people have an opportunity of supplying market garden products because they are adjacent to the big cities, whereas we in western Canada cannot rely to any great extent on that kind of production. If a research department were set up, possibly we should receive a more equitable distribution of these newer types of plants which are necessary to industry. The government should have been prepared a year or two ago to have set aside sums of money for *ftiis purpose. I know that in years gone by, in times of peace, when the people of western Canada were asking for money, it was the plea of this government that it did not have the money for the purposes to which our people sought to have it applied. To-day that can no longer be said. We know the government can find money for projects which are essential to the war effort, and I would say that in respect of agricultural research the country's war needs are closely connected with the peace needs which are going to come so closely after.
I suggest that the minister do his very best within the cabinet to have appropriations made for agricultural research, because it promises to provide one of the most important means of keeping our men employed in the years to come.


Mr. HANSELL:: I believe I can assure the hon. member for Moose Jaw of the support of this group in his presentation this afternoon and his attempt to arouse public opinion with respect to these matters. Of course it is necessary to do more; money for this pwpose

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must be found; and if the hon. member wants to know where to find that money, this group is able to tell him.
I support the hon. member because I am conscious that there is little Canada cannot do if she puts her mind to doing it. I do not wish anything I say to be misconstrued as a criticism of the work which has already been done by the Department of Agriculture in any branch of research, or a reflection upon the national research council as regards any work it has done. I believe these agencies of the government have done an excellent job as far as they have gone. They could do a good deal more if they had what I may term unlimited funds at their disposal.
Personally I am a little alarmed that Canada seems to be behind other nations with regard to scientific research. I do not believe that our young scientists are really given the opportunity to which they are entitled. What happens to our science graduates when they come out of universities? They look around for positions. They flock over to the United States, only because they can get jobs there with bigger pay. That to my mind is not to the credit of Canada. I wonder if the minister is aware, I wonder if the government is aware, that we have doctors of philosophy in some of the sciences working for the government for less pay than a grade three stenographer. That is a fact; it should not be, but it is. When I hear things and know things of that kind I have to ask myself, what sort of Canada are we building? Surely the government cannot escape all responsibility in this very important matter. There is no reason why we should not be one of the leading nations in scientific research, particularly as applied to agriculture. What was it which prior to the war assisted Germany so greatly in making its military preparations? The Germans, not being able to trade in the markets of the world, were forced into the field of synthetics and produced many materials in their laboratories. I believe I read somewhere that more German scientists carried off Nobel prizes than those of any other nation. I have no brief for the Germans; perhaps it was necessity which caused them to do what they did. But when have we produced any outstanding men who have carried off a number of prizes? Doctor Banting is, I realize, one outstanding figure. But we hear of the United States of America being able to do this and that; more recently we have learned of what Russia has been able to achieve in certain fields of research; where does Canada come in? It is true that we have carried off a number of international awards for wheat,
but perhaps that is largely because Providence, with its sunshine and rain, has smiled upon us. It seems to me that our governments act in this regard with the dollar sign stamped on about everything they do. Surely neither this nor any other federal government can escape responsibility for enabling our gifted young men and women to make Canada a first-rate nation in the matter of scientific discovery. There is no reason why this cannot be done. Let us build a Canada worthy of Canadian civilization, a Canada which wall be recognized by the world at large as producing many of the world's greatest scientists. I am absolutely certain it can be done. One thing Canada does not lack is genius; it needs only to be given opportunity.


Mr. GERSHAW:: I believe that support
for the drive which is being started this afternoon will grow, and grow rapidly. I believe, too, that the minister and his advisers will proceed along lines which are sound and proven and hold out hope of being successful. People, particularly in western Canada, are aroused about the possibilities of chemurgy. They hope to make the best possible use of their wheat, their oat hulls, their straw, and all their waste products. Above and beyond this they are looking for further markets for their products, without which their prosperity will not be realized. Surely, in the location of factories or in the distributing of research laboratories, the proximity of the raw product should be the great consideration. Instead of such buildings being erected nearer and nearer to the larger cities, the more remote districts should have the benefit, in these days of easy transportation, of the location and presence of these factories.
I particularly wanted to say a word under this item because I believe that the experimental stations are doing and have still to do a great work in connection with the beef cattle industry. This industry is one of importance. During 1942, 106,741 beef cattle were shipped east to the stock yards and to the feeding lots, and in addition 91,060 were shipped to the United States market. Of course, many thousands were also processed right in western Canada, and in spite of the hardships the ranchers and live stock men have been struggling to meet war demands. The stern and cold winters have developed a type of cattle that are hardy and healthy. Condemnations for tuberculosis in the west have been lower than in any other part of Canada and as low as in any other part of the world. There are still great herds of white-faced Herefords in the ranching districts, and they are of great value, as

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shown by the fact that recently at a bull sale in Calgary one sire sold as high as $2,550.
That great short-grass country which has suffered so much from drought seems to be faced with another season of drought, because the reports indicate that the rainfall this year is very much below normal. Still, that area is an asset to the dominion. Countless thousands of buffalo lived on the grass of those plains in years gone by, They were ruthlessly and wastefully slaughtered by the Indians but about 1881 the real ranching industry had its start. The dominion government then adopted a policy of granting large leases for twenty-one years at the rate of about one cent an acre. Those great areas were unfenced at that time and the ranch homes were widely separated. The struggle against prowling enemies and against the forces of nature, against misfortunes of different kinds, developed men and women who have greatly enriched the traditions of ranching history. I am referring now to a class of people who are rapidly passing off the scene. Nowhere else will you find the same spirit that existed in those days. Stories of cowboys, round-ups, the dreaded stampedes, night-herders and thrilling ranch adventures are stories of the past, because the whole situation as regards the randhing industry has changed. In their day they were noted particularly for their hospitality and no stranger was ever turned away hungry from their doors. Now these large ranches are divided up; they are fenced; the cattle graze mostly on deeded rather than on leased lands, and under the present minister great community pastures have been established and pure-bred sires provided to improve the standard of stock.
The Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act has also made it possible for the farmers to provide thousands of stock-watering reservoirs which have helped greatly in sustaining that ranching industry. There is one ranching experimental station at Manyberries which makes a scientific study of all branches of the industry, and this industry is rapidly becoming more of a science. The breeding, feeding and finishing of cattle require knowledge and care if they are to be at all successful.
At this time I wish to say a word on the need of experimenting not only on the line indicated by hon. members this afternoon but also in the way of making the best possible products that can be turned out for the markets. Although most of the beef cattle are noiw produced by the mixed farmer rather than by the rancher, yet in these great areas they stall live out in the open. The chinook winds

still come and the temperature will rise as much as 50 degrees overnight, so that the grazing areas are exposed and the feeding problem is solved. There is, however, the same determination among these people to produce the best product they can. I appeal to the minister to continue the work of the experimental farms and to nourish this great industry, which is the oldest, and all down through the ages it has been the chief industry of mankind-the tending of flocks and herds.


Mr. WINKLER:: The proposal of the hon. member for Moose Jaw has been widely and, in my opinion, completely discussed this afternoon, and with great unanimity, so that in rising to support that proposal, I am hesitant about taking up the time of the committee. I shall therefore be very brief.
It seems to me that the matter can be approached from a slightly different angle, and I should like to approach it from the angle of population in the western provinces. We are all aware that there has been a considerable depletion in the man-power of our three western provinces, Saskatchewan particularly and Manitoba next, and we want some day to have these men back. To bring them back, we cannot hope to see them have the openings in agriculture which they had before, because agriculture is becoming more and more mechanized. That process has been going on through the years, and especially in recent years it has been accelerated. Then, of course, the war has taken its toll as it has in other provinces.
I "would mention particularly war industries. War industries have not been given to the western provinces to any great extent. In fact, there has been a great scarcity of them, and the younger men who have not gone to the war, and the older men too, have gone into war industries in the eastern provinces, or what are called the central1 provinces here. It strikes me, therefore, that the best way of getting the eventual return of our population in the west is to get industry in the west. In my opinion that is geared to the proposal of the hon. member for Moose Jaw. We have to get industry, and in order to get industry we have to have research work. I believe research operations are understood at least to some extent by hon. members, some of whom have studied chemistry, others of whom have studied scientific subjects, and possibly a few of whom have done some research work. But while a knowledge of research may be fairly limited, in recent years there has been a great profusion of books on chemurgy, written in a popular manner, and widely read both by the general public and by hon. members. So that,

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despite the fact that all of us do not understand the meaning of chemical formulae, the avenues of research are becoming wider and wider.
The importance of costly research work is emphasized1. The day when the man in the back shop could produce some new invention has almost passed. These problems are approached by teamwork. In that regard I believe the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell) might have placed less emphasis on training in this country, because I believe university training in Canada is equal to that of any country in the world of our wealth and size. I am endeavouring to emphasize the point that it is teamwork, coupled with costly research work which is required to lay the basis of industry. We need industry badly in western Canada. Naturally we hear the question : What type of industry do we need most in the west? I would say that first of all the commodity we produce in greatest abundance, and with which we at times have our greatest problems, is wheat. There is no doubt that the uses to which wheat may be put are numerous. One hon. member has told us of the uses to which milk may be put. It is quite possible that there are just as many openings for wheat as there are for milk. Certainly that is a subject which should be thoroughly investigated.	-
There are other commodities which can be grown on the prairies in greater profusion. For instance, I believe potatoes will grow anywhere in the three western provinces. The natural question is, " Then, why do not western people grow more potatoes?" The answer is that there is no market for them-or at least very little market. The only market available is in the vicinity of the large centres, and it is supplied1 by the market gardeners. In the vicinity in which I live, removed only twelve miles from the United States border, no one grows potatoes to any appreciable extent, and there are no large potato growers in the community. But immediately across the border one sees practically nothing but potato fields, and from those fields potatoes by the thousands of carloads are shipped to the Chicago market. I believe potatoes could be grown all through the three western provinces, but until we find some other use for them, something in addition to that offered by the ordinary potato market, they will not be grown.
Flax, likewise, grows very well throughout western Canada. Then there are sections in the west where only oats will grow, and where wheat cannot be grown. Generally speaking, however, the drought areas have found that,
72537-240J
year in and year out, in dry and moist periods, wheat is their best crop. Other crops are gradually coming in from the south, and are being grown in the prairie provinces. In recent years it has been found that two varieties of soya beans are sufficiently hardy to be grown in western Canada, and that production can be carried on profitably in southern Manitoba.
Peas grow satisfactorily in practically all parts of Manitoba and, I believe, in most sections of the other prairie provinces. Cigar tobacco can be grown successfully in southern Manitoba, and as was pointed out by another hon. member, small fruits do well in that area. Then this year for the first time we are growing considerable quantities of soya [DOT]beans, rape seed and sunflower seed along the international border. The fact that these crops are grown introduces the subject of byproducts derived after the process of pressing the seeds. Certainly the possibilities of those by-products should be explored, and I have no doubt experiments are being made in Ottawa. It develops, however, that 'most of these seeds have to be shipped in bulk form to the eastern provinces, and particularly to the Hamilton area, for purposes of extraction. This means that the pulp which remains after the pressing is left in the east, and that the product in its finished form is distributed from this part of Canada. In my opinion those by-products should be investigated, and their possibilities for development in western Canada explored.
Before taking my seat I should like to draw attention to another matter which, although not closely allied to chemistry, has been brought to my attention by a friend who lives in the United States, just across the border-line from where I live. I inquired at the Morden experimental station, and learned that certain farm bulletins had been published on the subject I have in mind. The bulletin I have before me is entitled "Farm Production of Sorgo Sirup." Sorghum is grown to some extent in the southern portions of the western provinces, and certainly it is grown at the Morden experimental station. I learned from correspondence with that station that two varieties have proven very successful, namely, early amber and black amber sorghum. These are .pressed in small plants in the United States, on a community basis and as a farm process. Apparently this type of production has been done successfully, because this 1938 bulletin, No. 1791, from Washington, describes the construction of a small press costing only $788. To-day costs would vary to some extent, but the materials used are not costly, and the
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press could easily be made by any mechanically-minded farmer. I should imagine that under ordinary circumstances the syrup from sorghum could be pressed and used very well indeed. I draw this matter to the attention of the minister, in the belief that a simple process of this kind might well be developed in my district, and would suggest that investigations be carried out with that in mind. May I add that I take much pleasure in supporting the proposal of the hon. member for Moose Jaw.


Mr. CLEAVER:: Mr. Chairman, may I
have the attention of the committee, and lend my small voice in support of the hon. member for Moose Jaw and other hon. members who have spoken in favour of voting a substantial sum of money for scientific research in agriculture. I need not remind hon. members that large industrial concerns have found that if under present day competitive methods they wish to survive, they must spend large sums of money on research. There is no option about that. Competition is so keen that any industry wishing to survive must conduct a certain amount of research. I need not remind hon. members, either, that agriculutre is the largest single industry in Canada, and I do not know of anything of a more constructive or more positive nature that this government could do than to help our farmers to be better farmers, by making available to them that scientific knowledge which will give them leadership not only in the matter of fertilizing crops and choosing the right types of crops, but in regard to eveiy phase of the industry.
I am thinking now of one little branch of agriculture in which my riding is especially interested, namely the raising of fruits and vegetables. The problem of pest control is becoming exceedingly important, and it is expensive to cope with these pests in the production of fruits and vegetables. Therefore I should like to urge as strongly as I can that a substantial sum of money should be voted for the purpose of scientific research to assist agriculture. With the very modest sums at their disposal our experimental farms have done wonderful work, and I should like to pay a well-deserved compliment to the staffs of those farms for that work. In my opinion, however, those experimental farms are not equipped to do the type of research work that has been suggested by the hon. member for Moose Jaw. We need a central organization for that purpose, and I should like to see a central branch charged exclusively with the duty of carrying on scientific research for the benefit of agriculture alone. I should like to see that plant with the most modem

equipment, and I believe the salaries paid should be sufficient to attract the brightest minds in agriculture to-day. I beg the minister not to be too modest in his request. Let us go all-out in this effort, and if we do I am quite sure we shall attract to this work some of the best minds in agriculture and science in this country.


John Horne Blackmore: Just about a year ago, Mr. Chairman, Doctor Charles A. A. Stine told an important gathering of chemists in the United States that since 1940 mankind had discovered new continents of matter, and indicated that to-day between ten and one hundred times as much material was available to man as had been available in 1940. Such discoveries as those to which Doctor Stine referred have resulted from appropriations similar to that which the hon. member for Moose Jaw is wisely asking the government to make. I believe the hon. member is entirely right, and I support him completely. I would support him in asking for a much greater appropriation.
There are still great discoveries to be made; we have barely scratched the surface as yet. I believe we can raise the standard of living of all men to a degree not suspected even in the nightmares of men a hundred years ago. We will do this through studies such as the hon. member for Moose Jaw envisages. We will get plenty for the' world, provided we learn how to distribute it. There are many products of nature which up to the present we have not learned to use. It may seem strange, but I have often wondered, I suppose in common with nearly all farmers, whether we could not discover some use to which we might put the weeds that grow so profusely in certain parts of the country and which cost a great deal to destroy. If we could turn them into something profitable and useful, they might not be such a great disadvantage as they are now. I believe everything in nature can be made useful and beautiful if we set ourselves to it.
Mr. MaeINNIS: What about the mosquito?


John Horne Blackmore: Yes, even the mosquito. I believe we could use to advantage all our surpluses that are not required by other peoples. At the present time we are fearful of draining our marshes, of establishing new irrigation projects and of putting too many people on the land; we are afraid we may have too much. Certainly that is not a logical attitude for us to take. Such measures as those proposed by the hon. member for Moose Jaw will help us to overcome these difficulties.
Before I resume my seat I believe I should point out once more that we shall have to

Supply-Agriculture
learn how to distribute these goods. If we close our eyes to that problem we shall not be worthy of the position we hold. The time has come when we must have a new scientific method of distribution by which we may enable the people of our own country to buy more of our own products. With respect to the establishment of a plant based upon discoveries resulting from activities such as those suggested by the hon. member for Moose Jaw, the very first question to be asked would be, "Well, where are we going to sell the goods and what kind of prices will we get? Will not the manufacturers of these new kinds of goods bring down the prices of similar goods being manufactured by industries already established, and will not the whole process tend to disorganize the industrial life of the country as it is constituted at the present time?" All such anxieties would disappear if we knew that our people would be enabled to consume the products that might be produced by our industries as a result of activities of this kind.
May I say in closing that I completely favour the proposal of the hon. member for Moose Jaw, and I think in advancing it he has rendered a service to the country.


James Garfield Gardiner: Since it is just about six o'clock and I do not intend to go on with my estimates this evening I would ask to be permitted to place on Hansard a statement which I had prepared and had intended to read before the close of the discussion this afternoon, if I had been given the opportunity. It merely places on record, as briefly as possible, what has been done in regard to certain matters including dehydration, experiments with soybeans, experiments with the type of dandelion that has been brought here from Russia, and other matters in which hon. members will be interested when they come to discuss this question again. If the committee would permit me to place this statement on record, it would be in print and hon. members would have it in their possession for their consideration.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: By unanimous consent.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Mr. STIRLING:: Does the minister propose to have it printed as an appendix, or is it to form part of his speech?


James Garfield Gardiner: I should like it to go in as a statement by myself. It is as follows:
In view of the inquiries made and opinions expressed by hon. members as to the work done by the experimental farms on agricultural researches of a chemurgic nature, perhaps the following brief statement of work
under way, in which marked contributions have been made to the war effort, might be of interest.
1.	Fruit and vegetable preservation:
(a)	Dehydration. Improved construction of dehydrators and other engineering problems; new methods of preparing material, including blanching, sulphuring, and the like, toward preserving the vitamin content and food values; new processing procedures; new methods of packing, including the gas pack to prevent oxidation and destruction of food values, and the new solid pack method which promises to save tremendously in tin and in transportation; complete study of vitamin content and retention.
(b)	Frozen foods. To save tin and prevent undue wastage.
(c)	Canning. To deal with present problems in tin shortage and including tin substitutes.
(d)	Fruit juices work. In all these, problems continuously arise which involve more research work. For this reason the pilot plant for dehydration research is being constructed at the central experimental farm at the present time.
2.	Fibre production. The mechanizing of the flax industry has made possible the enormous increase in acreage to meet war needs. This increase is from 4,000 to 47,000 acres. In 1943 the British ministry asked for
75,000	acres, which production is quite possible in Canada providing labour is available and at rates of pay comparable to the price of lime fibre and tow.
Aside from the few acres of hemp being grown at the central experimental farm no hemp is being produced in Canada. Further research is needed in an attempt to adapt Canadian-grown hemp to processing on hard fibre machinery; also if sisal supplies continue to disappear some methods of treatment of hemp fibre so that it might be used for binder twine purposes.
3.	Vegetable Oils: Hon. members are fully acquainted with the objective set in the production of vegetable oils in Canada this year and the great need for these, particularly in view of the fact that south American supplies are very difficult to obtain due to shipping conditions and that the Argentine has placed certain embargoes on sunflower seed oil, and possibly others, to the United States, hence indirectly to Canada.
(a)	Flax. It would appear from the estimates of the bureau of statistics that the objective of 2,495,000 acres might almost be reached, although estimates from other sources,
Supply-Agriculture

including the Saskatchewan wheat pool and the Winnipeg Free Press, claim that the bureau of statistics estimates are too high.
It is hoped that a greater use of wilt-resistant varieties and a greater use of Royal, a rust-resistant variety, may be responsible for maintaining the high yield of 1942.
Considerable research as to the use of linseed oil for purposes other than paints, varnishes, linoleums, etc., is progressing in the states and in one or two institutions in Canada. The problem receiving the most attention is the possibility of making an edible oil from linseed oil. The possibility of producing a high-class rubber substitute is also shown by limited researches. Much of this work might well be done by the Department of Agriculture.
(b)	Soybeans. It would appear that the objective of 90,000 acres cannot be reached, but it is hoped that 55,000 acres will be planted. The earlier varieties created by the experimental farms are seeded almost to the limit of seed supplies, particularly the varieties Pagoda and Kabott.
(c)	Sunflowers. All sunflower seed that is available has been sown in the west. Two early varieties, easily harvested, created by the experimental farms (Sunrise and Mennonite) have been sown. It would appear, however, that the seed was capable of covering only some 27,000 acres, which is only one-quarter of the objective.
(d)	Rape seed. Black Argentine annual rape seed to the limit of seed grown by the experimental farms in 1942 and the amounts which could be purchased from the United States has been sown mostly in Manitoba and Saskatchewan and to a lesser extent in Ontario. This was adequate for only some 4,000 acres, whereas the objective was 2,000,000 pounds of oil which would have necessitated 10,000 acres. Researches by the plant breeders in developing pure, high-yielding, high oil content strains, continue.
(e)	Various other oil-bearing plants are still in the experimental stages. These include safflower and mustard. In addition, peppermint oil situation seems to be well in hand and adequate supplies are being produced in Canada.
Again, new hybrid corns in relationship to corn oil and cornstarch are being studied and the values rank high. Starch factories in Canada have used all Canadian corn in 1942.
4.	Kapok substitutes. Milkweed floss and cat-tail floss have been collected by the Department of Agriculture, mostly the science

service's botany division. In the evaluation of these in contrast to kapok the research council has done the work, the Department of Agriculture having no facilities therefor.
5.	Rubber-bearing plants. Thanks to the excellent groundwork of the botany division of the science service, the rubber-bearing qualities of Canadian weeds and plants have been studied for several years. This division also was the first to introduce into Canada the Russian dandelion (taraxacum kok-saghyz).
The Department of Agriculture is covering the experimental and research work in production and evaluation of the dandelion and the native milkweed, while the national research council is studying the industrial use of the rubber produced from these plants.
Experimental farms across Canada have plots of Russian dandelion-seven of the farms having five acres or more 1943 planting.
Commercial studies as to yields, harvesting, and general economy, mechanizing of seed collection and root harvesting, cultural and fertility studies and physiological studies are being conducted.
Milkweed in like manner is being studied in plots on experimental farms across Canada. At the central experimental farm ten acres are planted and are being studied as to mechanizing of pod' harvesting for kapok substitute, harvesting of leaves for rubber, etc. In addition the Department of Munitions and Supply have requested that all seed available be planted this year in order that in 1944 milkweed rubber gum up to the maximum amount -may be available for blending with buna-S. In consequence with financial assistance from munitions and supply, the Department of Agriculture, with the cooperation of the Ontario department of agriculture, is planting 600 acres.
If the product from the 1943 experiments is as useful as now promised, from laboratory studies conducted by the national research council there may be a demand for 15,000 acres in 1944.
6.	Wheat vitamin studies. The cereal division is intensively studying milling methods in order to retain vitamin content of flour in contrast to the British and American methods of re-enforcing white patent flours with chemical vitamins, particularly vitamin B1 as thiamin chloride. Marked success has been achieved to date.
7.	Industrial chemurgy not being undertaken: (1) Plastics. No investigational work is being conducted*of any consequence as to new plastics which might be made from

Supply-Pensions
grains such as soybeans, corn, flax, and others. It is well known that plastics from by-products of sunflower seeds and other materials might be made of great value to war industry and peacetime industry..
(2)	Power alcohol from cereals. No laboratory or pilot plant work is being conducted along these lines. A subcommittee of the national chemurgic committee set up under the Canadian chambers of commerce has had this matter under advisement for three years and a special subcommittee under the chairmanship of Doctor Speakman of the Ontario research foundation, brought in a report in 1941, carefully compiling all available information and based thereon economic calculations with different processes, for example:
(a)	European process-a million-dollar plant .vould absorb 1,800,000 bushels of wheat annually. With wheat at 60 cents, the resulting power alcohol would cost 39-6 cents at the listillery.
(b)	American practice-a three-million dollar clant would absorb 1,900,000 bushels of wheat, md with wheat at 60 cents, the resulting power ilcohol would cost 53-4 cents at the distillery.
The Department of Agriculture, which has representatives on this committee, has also kept in touch with authorities such as N. M. Rosten, an experienced chemist and distiller now in Canada and, formerly from central Europe, who claims the general economic advisability of establishing power alcohol plants to take care of low-grade cereals under war and peace time. This committee has also followed the United States senate subcommittee on agriculture's findings in reference to alcohol from cereals and the possibility of its use in rubber production.
(3)	Synthetic rubber from cereals. No pilot plant has been established nor is work being tone in Canada along this line. It would appear that Mr. Howe has covered this point satisfactorily in his statement to the House of Commons on Wednesday, June 16. What the future may hold as to the price of rubber in relationship to imported supplies and the long-time sources of petroleum in relationship to annual crops which may be grown for the production of power alcohol and rubber, are matters which time no doubt will solve.
The national research council has recently made a careful review of literature and are doing certain biological researches as to a simpler and more rapid method of bacterial fermentation of cereals toward a more economical production of butadiene from cereals.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar wanted to ask a question about the scale of wages paid at the experimental farm at Indian Head. It was his information that for seasonal work men were getting twenty-seven cents an hour plus the cost-of-living bonus. Has any consideration been given to increasing those wages?


James Garfield Gardiner: Consideration has been
given every year to the possibility of doing that. We have made a number of increases during the last five years, but the principal difficulty has been that the farm is employing men in competition with farmers and others in the district. At Indian Head we try to come as closely as we can to the going wages in the area for similar work.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Since I wish to say a few words, Mr. Chairman, would you call it six o'clock?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Before I call it six
o'clock I should like to make a brief statement. Earlier this afternoon I presented a list of speakers to the committee and a point of order was raised by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid). I know this was a precedent, but I would not be afraid of creating a precedent if it were accepted unanimously by the committee. As chairman I want to remain within the rules. I make this statement because so far I have had no difficulty when one or more members rise simultaneously to speak. The hon. member for New Westminster was right in raising the point of order, and I shall give no more lists of speakers. I call upon hon. members to bear with me if I do not seem to see them just as soon as they would like me to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.



DEPARTMENT OF PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH

[Stage Direction]
Direct payments to veterans and dependents.
205. To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act or in any other statute or law, for the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund of compassionate allowances awarded by the Canadian pension commission to widows of persons -who served in the naval, military or air forces of Canada during the war, 1914-1918, who are in necessitous circumstances, at such rates, not exceeding, however, $240 per annum (or $300 per annum in certain exceptional circumstances to be prescribed by the governor in
Supply-Pensions
[Stage Direction]
council), and in such circumstances and upon such terms as may be prescribed by the governor in council, $400,000.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): Mr. Chairman, may I say by way of explanation that since this item appeared in the estimates I have had many representations from ex-service organizations asking me to change the suggested administration from the Canadian pension commission to the war veterans' allowance board, and I am going to ask my colleague to move an amendment accordingly, the only effect of which will be to substitute the war veterans' allowance board for the Canadian pension commission.
Mr. MULOCK:: I move, Mr. Chairman, that the item be amended accordingly, to read as follows:
205. To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act or in any other statute or law, for the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund, of compassionate allowances awarded by the war veterans' allowance board to widows of persons *who served in the naval, military or air forces of Canada during the war, 1914-1918, who are in necessitous circumstances at such rates not exceeding however $240 per annum (except in such exceptional cases as the war veterans' allowance board may deem it proper to increase the amount to $300 per annum), and in such circumstances and upon such terms as may be prescribed by the governor in council.


Mr. GREEN:: Will the minister explain the terms under which this grant is to be administered?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: I shall be very glad to. But first of all I should like to give a brief historical review of the last two years. As hon. members are all aware, the Canadian soldiers' non-pensioned widows' association has been making representations for several years in favour of some pension or allowance for the widows of soldiers who have died since the war, leaving destitute families. A delegation from this association appeared before a committee of this house in 1941 and made very fine representations to the committee, impressing, I think, everyone there. That was on April 3, 1941.
The Canadian Legion made a recommendation on this subject to the same committee on March 28, 1941, and a petition signed by seventy-six members of parliament of all parties in the house was presented to the Prime Minister in regard to this problem.
As hon. members are aware, resolutions have been adopted in connection with this subject by cities, municipal councils, women's institutes and many other types of organizations. The number of these resolutions is very large indeed. I need not elaborate on the various
[The Chairman.]
arguments put forward by the widows' association when they appeared before the committee, because they are well known to all.
The recommendation made by the Canadian Legion to the House of Commons special committee on March 28, 1941, read as follows:
That pending introduction by the government of adequate social legislation, which should include widows and their dependents among its beneficiaries, provision be made by an amendment to the War Veterans' Allowance Act to grant an allowance of $20 per month to:
1.	The indigent widow of a pensioner who is not otherwise provided for;
2.	The indigent widow of a recipient of war veterans' allowance;
3.	The indigent widow of an ex-service man who served in a theatre of actual war.
Providing they have reached the age of 55 or are physically unable to earn a livelihood.
We further recommend that widows in the above classes under the age of 55 years with children to support and not otherwise provided for, receive $40 a month until the children have reached the age of 18.
In May 1942, the dominion convention of the Canadian Legion at Winnipeg adopted a resolution urging a "compassionate allowance" for veterans' widows when they are in necessitous circumstances on the same basis as is provided for widows of men dying on service in the present war under section 11(3) of the Pension Act.
The wording of the petition signed by seventy-six members of parliament of all parties urged:
Such amendments to the Pension Act as will ensure that all widows of deceased veterans of the great war (1914-18) who are now in necessitous circumstances be pensioned in an amount sufficient to provide the reasonable necessities of life.
The special committee on the Pension Act and the War Veterans' Allowance Act in 1941 in its report to the house made the following recommendation:
Consideration should be given to the advisability of extending the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act to:
(a)	Widows of disability pensioners not now provided for.
(b)	Widows of deceased recipients of war veterans' allowance.
It was finally decided that the basic principles involved in the War Veterans' Allowance Act should be adopted as the basis for the proposed allowances.
Ths, War Veterans' Allowance Act applies to members of the forces who served in a theatre of actual war or who were pensioned with respect to their services in the last war. The widows eligible will be those whose husbands' service records can be thus described.

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In the case of the War Veterans' Allowance Act, the allowances can be paid when a veteran has reached the age of sixty years, is permanently unemployable, or is incapacitated my mental or physical infirmity from maintaining himself. These conditions will be applied to the widow herself, but the age mentioned will be fifty-five instead of sixty.
Under the War Veterans' Allowance Act, the maximum allowance for an unmarried veteran or widower is S240 a year, with the proviso that only so much of the maximum allowance shall be paid as will bring his total income from all sources to $365 a year. Under the supplementary amendment, however, where there is no other income the allowance may be raised to $300 a year.
These conditions will also apply to the widows' allowances, so that the widow is treated on a parity with the aged or incapacitated veteran.
It was at first intended that administration should be in the hands of the Canadian pension commission. The work of the commission is increasing so rapidly however, due to the casualties of the present war that upon consideration it has been decided to ask the war veterans' allowance board to administer this regulation. The fact that the regulations are similar to those of the War Veterans' Allowance Act means that the board and its staff will have a great deal of experience to guide them in the administration.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Chairman, this is one
of those votes over which there will be no dispute in the house. I am sure that all members of the committee will approve this vote. Many of us, of course, feel that it comes very late. Members on all sides of the house, particularly those who served in the last war, have been pressing for years that some such provision be made for the widows of their comrades who served in that war, so that it is gratifying that now Canada is to give these widows some assistance. But there are several weaknesses which I wish to point out in connection with these provisions that are being made; for example, in the terms under which the widows will become eligible, also the amounts that they are to be paid, and I should like the members of the committee to give careful consideration to these suggestions. I am hopeful that the minister will see fit to make some changes and will not stand firmly on the plan as it has just been announced by him.
In the first place, I think it is a great mistake to make provision for paying money to the widows of these veterans by means of an estimate, because that means that there is no statutory protection for them. It means
that each year a vote will have to be brought in, and there is no assurance that the vote will be brought in each year, no assurance that they will continue to get this assistance. So that I suggest to the minister that either a new act be brought in or an amendment be made to the War Veterans' Allowance Act. That was the intention of the special committee on the Pension Act and the War Veterans' Allowance Act which met in 1941. If the minister will refer to paragraph 10 of the recommendations of that committee, he will find that it reads as follows;
That after further and more complete exploration of the problems involved, consideration be given to the advisability-
And these are the words I wish to emphasize: -of extending the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act. . . .
The paragraph goes on to point out the classes of widows for whose benefit the act should be extended. I ask the minister why that recommendation has not been followed, why it is that, instead of considering an act which would become part of the law of the land, we are merely considering a vote. There may be some good reason for provision being made in that way, but on its face it seems the wrong way to go about the business.
My next suggestion to the minister is that there should be some provision for making the payments retroactive, at least as far back as the date when it was announced that this allowance would be paid. I believe the first announcement was made by the minister in this house on February 4, by way of an interjection in a speech being made at the time by the hon. member for Trinity. The minister will correct me if I am wrong.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: That is the first announcement of which I can find a record. The same day the minister made a statement to the press which gave further particulars. So that ever since that time these widows have been expecting that they were to get these payments; and I suggest that when the order in council is drawn up there should be provision for making the payments retroactive. I take it that the order in council has not yet been drawn?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us the draft order in council or a more detailed summary of its terms? Perhaps he will do so later in the evening.

3S00
Supply-Pensions

The third suggestion I make to-night is that the amount should not be $20 a month with provision for payment of a further $5 where the widow has no income, but that it should be at least $1 a day. I am convinced that that should be the lowest amount we pay to recipients of the war veterans' allowance; that 's, to the men. I think the same is true of the fid age pension. This business of paying twenty or even twenty-five dollars a month under present conditions is not right. People cannot live on that amount of money at the present time. It is out of date, and it is out of line with the scale of payments made in any other part of the British commonwealth and in the United States. I suggest that Canada should pay at least $1 a day, not only to the widows for whom provision is made in the vote, but also to recipients of the war veterans' allowance and to old age pensioners.
Another necessary change is that there should be the right to make some casual earnings, or in other words, the right to earn more than now allowed before the earnings cut down the amount of the allowance. The existing rule has caused a great deal of difficulty with recipients of the war veterans' allowance since the present war. Most of these men could go out and earn small amounts, but they are in this danger, that the money they earn over what would bring them a total, with allowance of $365 a year, causes their war veterans' allowance to be cut down by the amount they earn over $125 a year. This has caused a great deal of discontent, and I think in many cases the restriction has proved unwise.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I interrupt my hon. friend in order to help on the discussion? Casual earnings to the amount of $125 can be added to the permissive income of $365 for widows, just as they are permitted to recipients of the veterans' allowance.


Howard Charles Green: No; but the point I wish to make is that the men can earn only an additional $125 over the payment of $240, which makes a total for the year of $365.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The further $125 is added to the $365 of the permissive income.


Howard Charles Green: Now they can make $490 a year; is that right?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is right.


Howard Charles Green: That is possible now? In other words, the recipient of a war veterans' allowance can earn $250 in addition to $240 allowance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Provided that the $125 can be deemed to be casual earnings and not fixed income-just casual earnings.


Howard Charles Green: What is the definition of
"casual earnings"?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not think there is any specific definition. It was referred to the 1941 committee. For instance, doing odd jobs like gardening. It is not to be permanent work at all. Casual earnings are considered to be small amounts earned by odd jobs for different employers, not steady, regular or even small wages from one employer.


Howard Charles Green: What that really means is that in addition to the $365 a year of income and war veterans' allowance, the recipient can earn casual earnings up to a further sum of $125?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: That improves the situation a great deal. Will the same provision apply in the case of these widows?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: The vote does not read that way; it reads as though the maximum, a widow can get is $300.
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
That is income; but casual earnings are not classified as income. Casual earnings are an addition to the permissive income of $365.


Howard Charles Green: The widow, then, *can get $490?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: Just the same as a veteran can?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
That is correct.


Howard Charles Green: Another suggestion is that provision be made to give these widows free medical treatment on the same basis as treatment is now given to recipients of the war veterans' allowance who would not be entitled to it by reason of wounds or disability suffered overseas. That would help a great deal, and

Supply-Pensions
I would ask the minister to let us know whether it is possible for some such provision to be made.
I would also suggest that this vote be extended to cover Canadians who served in the imperial forces, and imperials who were domiciled in Canada on or before September 1, 1930, which was the date on which the War Veterans' Allowance Act first came into effect. As the vote now reads, it covers only the widows of those who served in the naval, military or air forces of Canada during the last war. As the minister knows, the War Veterans' Allowance Act itself is much wider than that because it covers any person who was domiciled in Canada before the great war, whether he served in the Canadian or the British army or in any one of the allied armies, and it is only fair that provision should be made for the widows of these men.
Year after year some of us have tried to have the war veterans' allowance extended to cover imperials, those men who served with the British forces in the last war and came to Canada after the war. We have never been able to make headway with that request, but the time has now come when the imperials in Canada should be covered under the War Veterans' Allowance Act, and; a good way to start it would be by protecting their widows under the present vote.
I had intended to suggest that the administration of this vote be left with the war veterans' allowance board, and I am glad that the minister has seen fit to make that change. This board, has always had the confidence of the members of the house to a marked degree, perhaps largely because of the former chairman, Mr. Walter S. Woods, who is sitting before the minister to-night, and I am sure the board will administer this new vote in the same efficient way that they have administered the War Veterans' Allowance Act.
In conclusion, I repeat that it is of the utmost importance that this assistance be put into legislation and made a statute of Canada, so that it will stand no matter what happens here. Governments come and governments go; members of parliament come and members of parliament go; but if this is in the form of a statute there is far more chance of these widows receiving an allowance without any question, and without any difficulties, than if we leave it in the present position of the house having to vote a special item each year.
Mr. COLDW'ELL: The minister said that casual earnings up to $125 will be allowed; but he went on to say, in the rough and ready definition he gave, that these must be casual earnings, as the name implies, and not
72537-241J
earnings from any one employer. I was thinking of the widow of a veteran who is cleaning a country school and getting $10 a month for ten months of the year. That is $100. She is employed by one employer throughout the year. Would she be debarred?


Mr MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: I fear so.


Major James William Coldwell: That does not seem to be fair.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It would be counted as income, the earnings from that source being steady.


Major James William Coldwell: I do not think that is fair, because another woman may be earning $125 for the year from a number of persons, scrubbing or cleaning or helping around the home in some way, and while her earnings may not be steady in the sense that she does not receive them from one employer, nevertheless she may have a number of clients, if you like, who employ her fairly regularly and in that manner she is in receipt of casual earnings which none the less are almost as assured an income as the woman who cleans a school receives. I am thinking of a particular woman when I refer to the cleaning of schools. I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) that the improvement suggested by the minister is the very minimum of what should be done. I think the minister feels that himself in all probability.
Look around the world and see what is being done. Only this morning I received from New Zealand a summary of their new budget, and it is interesting to look at the improvements they have made at the present time, in the midst of the strain of war. They have improved their old age pensions legislation, the amount being now thirty-two shillings and sixpence a week, and they have made improvements in their veterans' allowance legislation, in their children's allowance, mothers' allowances and so on. When we consider all that, it certainly does put this very rich country to shame, because Canada with its resources is much richer than New Zealand. I wish the minister would give a different definition of the word "casual" in this connection. I am sure there are other members who know of widows of veterans in small towns or in the country who are doing the kind of job I have indicated, cleaning a church or a school and getting five, six, seven or ten dollars a month. They receive it steadily and therefore under this definition they are debarred. Before this is finally settled I hope that the minister will give
Supply-Pensions

further consideration to the definition of "casual", so that people in that position may not be cut off from this very small pension which the government provides.


Howard Charles Green: Is it not a fact that in
almost every case the widow of the veteran would be on a steady job earning a small amount of money? She would not be going from one job to another, so that casual earnings, based upon the principle of the widow taking different jobs all the time, will not help at all.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the case of women it is largely casual. In reply to the bon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), I would remind him that last year when the supplementary allowances were granted to recipients of veteran's allowance, "casual earnings" were stricken out. We were able to overcome that, however, by amendments passed during the Easter recess, and this is of considerable advantage. We are getting over the hard statutory provision of permissive income and supplementing it by $125 as a maximum, and I think it is a fairly good beginning. The essential point is that we cannot go farther. This is a provision ancillary to the Veterans' Allowance Act. My hon. friend said that this is an estimate. It is the intention to try this out to discover flaws and weaknesses in the administration, and then introduce legislation to implement it in statutory form. When I first intended to introduce it I was going to do so by order in council. However, I was informed by the Department of Justice that it would not be the proper way to do it. The proper way would be to put an item in the estimates, and that is why this was done. It will be the intention to discover any weakness there may be in the administration of the provisions, and to introduce an amendment to the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


Howard Charles Green: What about a widow with
children?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I believe the hon.
member for New Westminster has the floor.


Thomas Reid: I think the country generally
will receive this legislation with a good deal of satisfaction. Following the remarks of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, I would say that the expression "casual occupation" is one which has caused considerable concern in several parts of Canada. It has to be interpreted in its widest sense. I have had cases drawn to my attention, respecting men who have gone to do some fishing to produce salmon for export to Great Britain. Their earnings
tMr. Coldwell.]
would probably reach $165, and they would be cut off the war veterans' allowance. It was some time before the war veterans' allowance was adjusted.
I join with the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar in asking that the casual earnings clause be widened considerably, and that a little more latitude be allowed, especially at a time when labour is in great demand. I would ask that the line be not drawn too strictly in connection with those who desire to work, and to help out during this time of crisis.


Mr. KNOWLES:: Reference has already been made to the interest of hon. members in this item. As one who has come from the outside recently, I may say that I am particularly conscious of the interest not only of the women affected in the part of the country from which I come, but of the general public. Despite the fact that we are not satisfied with the amount proposed, there will be general satisfaction that at last some move in this direction is being taken. In view of the fact that there is nothing we can do in committee to raise the amount-although that is what some of us would like to do-I shall not take time to discuss that point.
There are, however, one or two other points concerning which some remarks have already been made, upon which I should like to comment. First of all, I would support the suggestion of the hon. member for Vancouver South that the effective date of the payment of this allowance should be made as far back as possible. The hon. member suggested that it go back to the date the propbsal was first announced in the house. I earnestly hope that may be possible. If there are legal reasons why it cannot go back beyond the beginning of the present fiscal year, I should certainly hope that when the minister draws up the regulations-or whoever draws them up-that April 1 might be the date, if indeed it cannot go farther back than that.
I understand the way these things work sometimes is that after the item is passed, the order in council and the regulations are drawn up, and that it is possible that the effective date might be some day next week, after the item is passed. It seems to me that would be most unfair to these women who would lose a month or two through no fault of their own, but simply because we in the House of Commons have taken this length of time to get around to dealing with this item. Surely it is not their fault, and they should not be penalized to the extent of a month or two by virtue of this fact.

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The item as it appears in the estimates is an amount of $400,000 for the fiscal year. I assume that amount was calculated with a view as to how much it would take to cover the cases of which the department is aware, and that it was calculated on the basis of a full year of twelve months. I earnestly hope the minister will see to it that the effective date is taken back at least to April 1, and preferably to the date suggested by the hon. member for Vancouver South.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Before the hon. member proceeds to his next point may I say a word on this one, namely, that in connection with making this provision retroactive I doubt very much if I have the authority, or if the government has the authority to do so. I rather fear the effective date will be when the vote passes this committee-to-night I hope. That is why I introduced' it as the first item in my estimates. The regulations were drafted to read from the date of application. The regulations will be announced next Monday, and applications will be invited at once. If possible, I should like to see it made retroactive to April 1, but I doubt if it can be done.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I call the minister's attention to the fact that the amount we are voting is for the entire fiscal year, and that as a matter of fact two-sixths of the amount has already been voted. The minister knows I tried to get him to do something on the basis of that some time ago.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I did look into that feature of it, because I thought I might be able to act upon this item, once one-sixth was voted. I was informed that because there was a change in the item, not of destination but of construction, I could -not act upon that.


Gordon Graydon: The only difficulty with respect to the retroactivity of the provision lies in the fact that it is brought in by way of an item in the estimates rather than by legislation. That is the minister's real difficulty as far as retroactivity is concerned. Had he brought it in by way of a statute, as was suggested by the hon. member for Vancouver South, he could have made the statute retroactive, and this would have surmounted his legal difficulty.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If I had brought it in as a statute, judging from the progress we are making it would not be passed for many months.


Gordon Graydon: It would not make a great difference, because in that instance the minister could make provision for back pay. 
In this instance not only will there be delay, but widows may be suffering at the same time.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I think the minister is aware of the fact that all hon. members feel it would be unfair to these women if they were to be penalized by -reason of our delay.
I certainly hope the minister will do his best to find ways and means whereby the amount we are voting will be for the full year, dated from April 1.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I might also point out that when the Veterans' Allowance Act was introduced in 1930, and subsequent amendments were made no retroactive provisions were inserted in any of those amendments.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Another point I have in mind relates to the expression "in necessitous circumstances", which appears in the item, and which suggests that considerable significance will attach to the orders in council and the regulations which may be drawn up for the administration of this allowance. One shudders at the way in which the expression "necessitous circumstances" can sometimes be applied. Sometimes it means a rigorous means test which works a hardship unnecessarily. I am sorry the provisions are not contained in some sort of act, so that we could deal with them here. It will be in the power of the minister to suggest regulations and to define "necessitous circumstances". That being so, I hope he will bear out the reputation he has in some quarters for being kind-hearted, and that he will go as far as he can in realizing that these women ought to be entitled to the full amount being provided for them. I -hope he will be very humane when he comes to draft the regulations on that point.
May I say a word or two about the matter of these two sums of $125 of extra income which are allowed. The minister refers to $125 of permissive income, which is characterized as some sort of steady income. Then he says that in addition the recipient of an allowance under this legislation may have another $125 of casual income. As has been pointed out already by previous speakers, one sees immediately how unfair this can be in some cases. On the one hand, a recipient may earn a total of $250 in addition to her allowance; and, because it is casual, because it comes from two or three sources, she is entitled to it. On the other hand, another woman may earn the same amount; but because she receives it from one source, it would be regarded as a steady income, and as a result she would be
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penalized. The minister has stated already that we must realize that this is to be ancillary to the War Veterans' Allowance Act. I suggest that this simply increases the strength of the case which many hon. members have been presenting for amendments to the War Veterans' Allowance Act.
Just a few days ago I had a case brought to my attention from the city of Winnipeg, similar to the cases which have been mentioned to-night. This was the case of a recipient of the war veterans' allowance who noted that there was a shortage of man-power and that everyone was asked to pitch in and do his bit in this time of emergency. He answered an advertisement and accepted parttime work as an elevator operator. While he was working his expenses were higher than while not working. In due course it proved to be too much of a strain on his health, and he had to quit the job. Then, lo and behold, he discovered that while he had been working, and spending most of what he was making because of the additional expenses, including extra medical care, he had earned more than he was allowed to receive under the War Veterans' Allowance Act in a twelve month period, so that his allowance was discontinued and he was notified that application for reinstatement would be considered at some future date, I believe in December of this year. Naturally he wonders what he is supposed to do between now and December, and rightly feels that he has -been wronged. I quite understand how the act works; I quite appreciate that we must have regulations; but in the human situations that develop one sees the wrongs that can be created in this way. I am simply suggesting to the minister that all the injustices which existed under the War Veterans' Allowance Act in regard to veterans, and which in themselves needed correction, will be doubled when we bring these widows under the same provisions. Therefore I hope the minister will consider bringing down amendments to the War Veterans' Allowance Act this year to take care of these conditions both with respect to the veterans and to the widows, for whom we are now providing some consideration.
The other matter about which I should like 10 have said a word also has been covered this evening. I hope this provision will become part of the law of this country and that, when it does, the amount will be increased. I was glad to hear the minister say that after a trial period it is his intention to see what can be done by way of legislative enactment. When that time comes-and I hope it will be soon- I trust he will recommend both for the war

veterans and for these widows an amount greater than this $20 a month. It has been pointed out already how hopeless it is for these people to try to live on $20 a month. That has been the situation with our old age pensioners and our war veterans from the time these acts were brought in. Now that we have in some cases the paying of a cost of living bonus, with recognition of the fact that as the cost of living goes up people should be given something extra in order to meet that cost, the whole country has realized that it is unfair to ask a group of our people, such as the old age pensioners and these war veterans, who never should have been asked to live on $20 a month, to continue to live on that small amount. I hope, therefore, that when the minister brings in an act to cover these women and makes the necessary changes with respect to the veterans, he will realize the force of these arguments and this opinion throughout the country and will see to it that the amounts are much greater than we are providing at the present time.


Victor Quelch: We in this group are very glad to see that at last recognition has been given to the claim of the widows of the veterans of the last war. I recall that when the pensions committee, I think two years ago, recommended that an allowance be given these widows, the minister or the board took the stand that this could be dealt with only through social legislation, so that I am glad to see that the position has been reconsidered.
I have always felt that if we considered $480 as the right amount to pay a man and his wife under the War Veterans' Allowance Act, then when either the husband or the wife dies, the amount paid to the widow or widower should be more than half that total, because certainly it costs one more than half the amount it costs two to live. There is still the rent of the house to be kept up, for example, and matters of that kind. I realize that this cannot be dealt with at the present time, but I am hoping that when an amendment to the War Veterans' Allowance Act is brought in, consideration will be given to increasing the amount paid to the single member of the family remaining.
I am still not clear as to when the total amount of $490 can be accepted as income. We have $125 as casual income, $125 as regular income, and an allowance of $240. How about a widow living on a small farm. Is anything deducted as rent for the house? I have known the case of a soldier, living on a farm, who had a certain amount deducted as rent for the building. I have known of other cases in

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which certain amounts have been deducted for stock, though the income from that stock might be much less than $250.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Are these people recipients of war veterans' allowance?


Victor Quelch: Yes, and I understand the same legislation will cover payments to the widow. Could the minister explain what would be the position of the widow of a soldier living on a very small farm, we will say, where the income is negligible. Perhaps she has to hire all the labour that is required to operate that farm, and by the time she has paid for the labour and paid her taxes, in all probability the revenue will be considerably below $250. Will she still receive the full amount of $240.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My information is that from the particulars given me by my hon. friend, in that case the widow would be entitled to the maximum allowance available.


Mr. McIVOR:: Before I offer any suggestions I wish to say that any cases I have brought before the minister or the board have been considered thoroughly and with kindness. But when I have a case that I think is worthy and they do not agree, then I think there should be some changes. I should like to see some leeway given with regard to imperial veterans, and the case I have in mind is that of a young Scotsman who was wounded three times and gassed. He then went through the university and entered his profession. He came to Fort William and was taken ill with lung trouble. I am not a doctor, but I do not think any man can be gassed without his lungs being affected in the future. I took this case up with the pension board and I was advised to go to the British minister. I did so, and I failed in my application. This man has been in a sanatorium for nearly three years and has not received a five-cent piece from the British government.
My suggestion is that the time in which a pensioner must be domiciled in the country should be shortened. My second suggestion is that the pension board should state what this man should receive, and the British government should pay it. Our pension board knows the man's needs better than those who are accustomed to old country ways. I suggest that these imperial veterans who fought in the last war side by side with Canadians should receive more consideration.


Mr. ADAMSON:: This is the culmination of a struggle lasting many years to rectify a very serious wrong. I realize that it is small
recompense indeed, but I accept it in the light that half a loaf is better than no bread.
I suggest to the minister that the present situation could have been avoided had we had an insurance scheme similar to the armed services insurance provision at present in force in the United States. I bring this up at the present time in an effort to show what is likely to happen after hostilities have ceased. Had we had an insurance scheme there would be no question about subsidiary income. There would be no question, as there is under the present regulations, of a means test in conr nection with extra earnings. These widows of soldiers of the last war are in a better position than they have been, but they must still prove that they are in almost dire penury before they receive any recompense. I suggest that we remember what has gone before and see to it that after this war we do not make the same mistake, and have another group of dependent women who may be up in years and suffering because their breadwinners have died, chiefly from causes attributable to the war. With proper insurance legislation every dependent of those who serve in this war would be secure for the future.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, I rise
in order to identify the Progressive Conservative party with the remarks which have been made by those colleagues of mine who have spoken in connection with this matter. This particular item in the estimates of the Department of Pensions and National Health has to do with problems of rehabilitation of the veterans of the last war and, as the hon. member for York West (Mr. Adamson) has just suggested, of this war as well. There have been few cases in Canadian public affairs where such pressure has had to be exerted by an organization and others through the years as has been the case in connection with the movement which has finally reached this stage in its development. In many cases such as this a government seems to make a token move-the minister will probably object to my saying that this is a token-to the people involved, but still this is a move in the right direction so far as assisting these women to whom Canada owes so much is concerned.
I repeat the regrets which have been expressed already that the government has not seen fit to bring this about by means of a statute rather than by an experimental estimate. I need not repeat what I said a few moments ago, but there are great difficulties in connection with giving this relief in the way it is being done. With a statute, retroactivity would be possible immediately. The minister has received the opinion of the justice
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department and he finds that the question of retroactivity hangs in the balance. I take it from his remarks that he is not very hopeful of the matter being decided in favour of the widows. This is a step in the direction in which many of us have asked the government to move in the past. I suggest that in the time which will elapse between now and next session the minister give careful consideration to the matter of which he spoke a few moments ago and endeavour to incorporate, not only this token movement but a comprehensive and all-embracing scheme into a statute. Then these women to whom we owe so much will be able to feel grateful to this parliament and to this government for making these so-called concessions. I do not, however, regard them' as concessions; they are actually overdue rights. Because they fall into the 'category of overdue rights, an obligation rests upon the government to a greater extent than it otherwise would. We have at least our toe in the door, and I hope the door will finally be opened for those who are so deserving.
This is a general item and I am wondering when it is up again if the minister will permit any further discussion with respect to this matter. There are members of our group, particularly the hon. member for Davenport and the hon. member for Broadview, who have been active in this matter but who are absent from the house on public business this evening, and there will be others in our group who will want to say something on this item.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is another item in the estimates on which they can discuss this matter.


Gordon Graydon: I am glad to have the minister's assurance on [DOT] that point because members of this group have taken a very active part in trying to secure pensions for these widows. I know the minister is anxious to get this item through, and I shall be glad to expedite its passage with the reservation I have made and the assurance just now given by the minister.


Mr. McLEAN (Simcoe East):: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to speak on this item, but in view of suggestions that have been made from various parts of the house that the government is acting in this matter only after a great deal of pressure and suggestions that the government should go much farther than they have gone, I think in fairness to the minister and the government a few points should be brought to the attention of the committee.
IMr. Graydon.]
In 1941 a committee on pensions was set up consisting entirely, I think, of veterans of the last war. They certainly could not be said to be unsympathetic to the interests of the veterans of the last war or of this war. I wish to draw attention to the fact that the government in the action they are taking have gone much farther than any recommendations made by that committee. Those recommendations have already been mentioned. That committee recommended that the government consider the advisability of extending the benefits of the War Veterans' Allowance Act to two classes of widows: widows of pensioners of the last war and, second, widows of recipients of the war veterans' allowance. Pensioners of the last war are men who are suffering from a disability incurred as a result of their service during the war. And who are recipients of the war veterans' allowance? Men who become unable to work and are in necessitous circumstances, but whose disability cannot be proved to be due to war service. Because of the fact that they served in a theatre of war-and that is an important condition-a legal presumption was established that their disability was due to the war. Men who are in receipt of a pension because of war disability were also eligible for the war veterans' allowance. As I say, that pension committee recommended that the government consider the advisability of extending the benefits of the War Veterans' Allowa'nce Act to widows of these two classes of men-the widows of men who are suffering war disabilities and the widows of men who had served in a theatre of war and who were suffering a disability which it was legally presumed was due to the war, although that could not be proved. That is as far as that committee went, after hearing the representations of the organizations which spoke on behalf of the war widows. In fairness to the minister and to the government I think that should be pointed out more clearly than it has been because the minister himself was brief in his remarks.
The minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I take it from the wording of this item that the benefits of the order in council which will be passed are not to be restricted to widows of men who fought in a theatre of war or to widows of men who had a pension, but will apply to the widow of every man who was in the army, the navy or the air force during the last war.


Howard Charles Green: That is not what the minister said.

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George Alexander McLean: Here is how the amended item reads:
To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act or in any other statute or law, tor the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund, of compassionate allowances awarded by the war veterans' allowance board to widows oi persons who served in the naval, military or air forces of Canada during the war, 1914-1918, who are in necessitous circumstances. . . .
And so forth. The minister will correct me if I am wrong, but my reading of that item is that these benefits are not limited to the classes of people to whom the recommendations of the pensions committee apply. Th'e benefits of the order in council will apply to the widow in necessitous circumstances of every man who is in the army, navy or air force.


Howard Charles Green: The minister said just the opposite when he made his statement.


George Alexander McLean: Perhaps I did not hear what the minister said, but that is the meaning as I read the item. Be that as it may, the government has gone the full distance recommended by the committee which, as I have said, consisted entirely of veterans of the last war.
I have just one other point to make. I think this item will pass without any opposition because it is a popular move which will commend itself to the members of the house, but I want to join with the hon. member for Vancouver South in his suggestion that this be done by statute rather than by an item in the estimates, but not for the reasons he gave. He suggested that this should be incorporated in a statute in order that it would be permanent. I doubt the wisdom of taking this action by way of an item in the estimates and by order in council, but for a different reason. I am not one of those who have been raising general objections to action by order in council. Those who have raised that objection have been very general in their objections and they have not to my knowledge pointed to many specific instances. I know that especially in war time there is a great deal of action that must be executive action recorded by order in council; but it does seem to me that when we have something that is purely legislative such as this, it would be advisable, instead of taking this action by an item in the estimates and by order in council, to have brought in an amendment to the War Veterans' Allowance Act. It may be that the government has felt that there would be no objection to proceeding in this way and that the quicker and easier way was to put an item in the estimates instead of bringing down a bill and having it go
through its first, second and third readings. But I suggest that the present procedure is a dangerous precedent and I am not much impressed by the suggestion of the minister that this is more or less of an experiment.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I never said that. What I did say was that we would like a fe^v months to discover any flaws there might be in administering this, and that after the experience of a few months we would introduce legislation.


George Alexander McLean: I stand corrected in my statement of the minister s words.
I did not state them quite correctly. The idea is, as he says, that by experience we shall find out what weaknesses there are and shall then be in a better position to enact legislation. But if that principle were to be addpted in connection with all legislation, I do not know where we would land. If something which is purely legislative is to be enacted first by the government by order in council, and an item in the estimates, and then, after people have had the benefit of it for a month or a year, legislation making it permanent is to be brought before the house, I think the method of procedure is objectionable. I know the session has been long and we are very anxious to get through; nevertheless I believe, not for the reason expressed by the hon. member for Vancouver South but for a very different reason, that it is a wrong principle that something which is purely legislative should be decided upon by the cabinet, passed by order in council, and be an item in an estimate, instead of an amendment to the act being brought in.
That was not what I rose to say. I rose to point out that, in taking the action they have taken, the government have gone as far as, and if my interpretation of the amendment is correct, much farther than, any recommendation made by the pension committee. If my reading of the amendment is correct, they have introduced a new principle into the Pension Act. They are establishing a new class of 'beneficiaries, namely the wives of men who served in the armed forces, irrespective of whether their husbands had a war disability or whether they served in a theatre of combat.


George Hugh Castleden: It is now twenty-five years since the armistice of 1918. I think the mark of the greatness of any nation is the manner in which it treats those of its citizens who are unable to take care of themselves, and especially those who are related to the ones who were willing to sacrifice and do all they were asked to do in the war. It is regrettable that it has taken a quarter of a century to bring down what I call token legislation of
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this kind, although we are glad that it is here. Yet I cannot understand what logical reason can be given why this grant should be limited to widows of pensionable veterans. Why should not any woman who is the widow of any war veteran be allowed, if she is in necessitous circumstances, to have this grant? Is there any reason? Whj^does this not apply to the widow of any veteran? I should like the minister's answer. If there is a logical answer, I am sure the committee will be glad to have it. I also wish to know, if the figures are here, how many such persons there are in Canada-that is, widows of pensioned veterans, and also widows of veterans-and whether this grant will be sufficient to take care of all those who may make application.
I regret that the administration is to be pretty well by order in council. If the minister has in mind any of the terms of the order in council, I am sure the committee will be glad to hear them. Surely twenty-five years of administration by the Department of Pensions and National Health should enable that department to bring down the proper type of legislative regulation and present it to this house so that hon. members can be assured the law will be administered so as to bring relief to those who have so long deserved it. That the widows of soldiers of the last war should be in need at all is a sad reflection. I do not suppose that any of them are under fifty years of age, so that in a few years they will be eligible for the old age pension and this provision will not apply to them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The first question, I understand, was, why was not the legislation applicable to the widows of all those who served. Is that right?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course the principle of this estimate is to grant the same privileges to the widows as to the veterans who were eligible for the war veterans' allowance. The principle of service pensions as such has never been admitted in Canada nor, so far as I am aware, in any other country. The provision of the regulations which will follow will be that the word "veteran" will mean in the regulations exactly what the word means in the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


Howard Charles Green: Will that cover the men who served in the British forces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The limitations will be exactly the same as they are in the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


Howard Charles Green: Of course the limitation in the War Veterans' Allowance Act is wide enough. I refer to section 2, subsection (j), paragraph (ii):
Any former member of any of His Majesty's forces or of any of the forces of any of His Majesty's allies who was domiciled in Canada at the time at which he joined any such force for the purpose of the war and who served during such war in a theatre of actual war. . . .
It also covers the Canadians who served in the South African war. As I read this vote, neither of these categories is covered.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: In the regulations the word "veteran" will mean exactly what the word "veteran" means as defined in the various subsections of the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, a man who served in the imperials will be covered if he had a Canadian domicile?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, if he is eligible under the provisions of War Veterans' Allowance Act. But there was quite a strong public opinion in this country against making the provisions of the act available to imperials who served in a theatre of actual war unless they were previously domiciled here, when such provisions were not available to Canadians who had served in England.


Mr. POULIOT:: The minister shall bear in mind that no man who has lived in the mud and passed winters in the snow and the cold can be normal when he resumes his civilian life two, three or four years after enlistment. It is impossible. And because a soldier-and when I say "a soldier" I include the three branches of the armed forces-is considered fit at the time that he is discharged, it is impossible for him to get any superannuation afterwards, because he cannot establish that the cause of his sickness is on account of his military services. This is the answer that I have received hundreds of times. It is not fair, because I know returned men who suffer from rheumatism-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry, but I must rise to a point of order. My hon. friend is discussing pensions. This has nothing to do with the Pension Act; it is a special allowance under the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act for certain classes of widows. We have in the estimates another item dealing fully with pensions and veterans' allowances.


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, I will ask the minister not to rise before I have finished explaining my case. I know he is very impatient when I

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speak. If he wants me to tell him what I think of his department, I will tell him in very clear language, and I want him to be patient.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Go ahead.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, surely. I want him to be polite. He must remember when everybody was against him I was the first one to speak in his defence.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not taking any lessons in politeness from the hon. member for Temiscouata. There is not a more impolite man in the house than the hon. member.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have no lesson to receive from the minister or from any other minister. And now I fight for the under-dog.


Mr. PINARD:: You should have got your lessons before.


Jean-François Pouliot: I will ask the hon. member
for Ottawa East to agree with the hon. member for Ottawa South before he interrupts me *when I speak.


An hon. MEMBER:: "East" and "West"; there is no "Ottawa South."


Jean-François Pouliot: Besides that, the hon.
member for Ottawa East shines more by his silence than when he talks.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. The hon.
member must confine himself to the item before the committee.


Jean-François Pouliot: We may discuss the
matter in St. Anne's hall before some returned men. I am speaking of men who receive nothing, and I am urging the case of those who depend on the mem. The dependents are not only widows; they may be mothers or children, when the mother is dead, or other relations. In my opinion this item is not large enough, because it does not cover the cases that should be provided for in all humanity.
I have written to the Department of National Defence with regard to one man. The facts of the case are all set out in that letter. This is a poor fellow who was driving a baker's wagon delivering bread. He had only his skin and bones, no flesh, the leanest man I have ever seen on earth, very delicate. He used to drive a wagon and he was called to the army. A doctor's certificate was given showing that his health was exceedingly poor and that he was suffering from hyperchlor-hydria. He was taken into the army, but he suffered all the time. He went into the hospital and received the last rites of the church-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I rise to a point of order. The item we are discussing relates to widows from the great war, a particular class of persons, and my hon. friend is not making any statement that is germane to the item.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am submitting that the item is not wide enough. It should be wider and should apply not only to war widows, legitimate or not, but to other persons, the mothers of those in the army and also children.
I believe that the duty of the state is to look after the men who have been suffering by reason of military duty. It is a real shame to think that twenty-five years after the first war we still have a veterans' problem to deal with, and that problem has not yet been solved.
Speaking to the point of order, let me say that my story is not finished. I have two or three sentences to add to this case, and then the minister will realize that I am perfectly in order when I ask that the item should be broadened in order to cover the field I have indicated. Have I not the right as a member of parliament to say that this item is wholly unsatisfactory, that it does not cover cases that are most critical, and that from the human and humane point of view the minister should broaden it to cover at least some essential cases? That is my view, and if I have not the right to say that to-night, we might as well close parliament and all go home, and let the ministers decide what they wish by order in council.
I am speaking as a man who has been offended by the way in which some returned men of the last war, and some men in the army now, have been treated by the army, and I am going to discuss the case of a mother who was deprived of all help because, by false pretences, they succeeded in getting the signature of a young man to his resignation from the army. Telling him that he was getting a pension, by having him sign that paper under false pretences they succeeded in obtaining his resignation, by that action depriving his mother of the allowance to which she was entitled.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The minister has raised a point of order. The hon. member for Temiscouata must realize that the item under discussion deals with allowances to widows of persons who ' served in the naval, military or air forces of Canada during the war, 1914-18. I think it should be possible, after the statement made by the minister, for the hon. member to stay within the limits of that item. I must follow the rules. Other
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opportunities will be afforded for the hon. member to bring up the matter he is now discussing.


Jean-François Pouliot: I abide by your ruling, Mr. Chairman. I respect the Chair.
Let me now take up the matter of a returned man of the first war. This man was shell-shocked. I have sent that case to the minister. This man receives $40 a month. He can hardly speak. What does he do? He sells cards for ten cents-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I must rise to a point of order. There is an item in the estimates dealing with pensions for men of the last war, and an appropriation for this war. I submit that the hon. member is out of order.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The point of order is well taken. The hon. member for Temiscouata realizes that the matter he is discussing is not relevant to the item before the committee.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am not going to argue against your ruling, Mr. Chairman, but I will tell you one thing. The minister of pensions has never understood' the rules of the house. However, I will not discuss that case any farther. There are items covering different things; there are items for the veterans of the last war and there are items for the men of this war. Why have we this item before us to-night? Because those two items were not adequate. If they were, why should we have this one? I am arguing that this item is not enough; it does not cover all the cases that should be remedied. I make this statement on behalf not only of the soldiers of my county, but of the soldiers in all parts of Canada, who complain that they are not receiving fair treatment. Is this item only for the female sex? Are we to be told that it is only women who shall enjoy it? In the last war there were very few women except nurses, and what the women received they received through their husband's pay and allowances granted to them. And now we have to fight for these cases, and it is a very hard fight because it is impossible to get any satisfactory answer from the department as it is at present organized.
For a time the board was giving pensions, just the same as the waters flood the fields. To-day conditions are different, and it is hard to get anything. When a man gets a few dollars a month, a meagre pittance, he is considered well off. It affects the condition of the mother; it affects the condition of the children; it affects the condition of the whole family. And it is on behalf of the starving families of many soldiers, and [The Chairman.]
especially on behalf of the classic case of Peter Leclair who wrote to everybody, from the Prime Minister down, seeking redress of his wrongs, that I ask the minister to reconsider that. I say this in the best possible spirit. So long as we are here a society of mutual admiration, making kotows to each other, we shall get nowhere. Soldiers will be most indignant at the way things are going on. How is it we cannot have redress of a wrong on behalf of a poor widow who has been deprived of her rights, when we think of men who get $50 a day for living expenses as dollar-a-year men? And that does not even come before us. There are more allowances for them. We are told it is not under the item. We will take it under the item and wait for it one hour, two hours. I put all these cases before the conscience of the minister and the conscience of my hon. colleagues. It is a shame that in a country like ours we see many soldiers who can hardly walk, who have been shell-shocked, who walk with crutches, who are one-eyed, and who have lost an arm or a leg. We see them in the streets. Sometimes they are begging. The state should have provided work for those who were able-bodied, and should have looked after the returned men who were unfit, whether-


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Order. The Chair has some power if he wishes to use it. I have called the hon. member for Temiscouata to order twice, to have him realize that he is not speaking to the item before us. He knows as Chairman of committee I would be the last man to deprive him of the privilege of speaking his mind. But there are some rules which of necessity I must follow. One rule is that in committee of the whole we must necessarily keep to the item we are discussing; otherwise, we would not make headway. I believe I am voicing the sentiment of an overwhelming majority of the members of the committee when I say that we should keep within the item we are discussing; otherwise I shall have to use the powers I have vested in me.


Stanley Howard Knowles: I should like to say another word about the effective date of the payments to be made under the item we are now discussing. I do not feel I can accept as final the word of the minister given a short time ago, when he said he thought there would be no legal power to make payments retroactive to April 1. I wish to say that in putting up a struggle for this point I have no notion that the paying of these widows for the last two or three months will at all make up for what they should have

Supply-Pensions
been receiving over a good many years. It seems to be very niggardly and unfair that these women should have to suffer delay in receiving these payments on account of our delay in reaching this item. I shall call as witness to that point the Prime Minister. Before doing so, however, may I point out that on March 26 the house voted one-sixth supply for the fiscal year commencing April 1, 1943. Then on May 17 we voted another sixth of the year's supply,, which means that at all times we have had supply in the treasury, if I may put it in that way.
On May 18, after we had thus voted four months' supply, I asked on the orders of the day whether it would be possible, in view of the supply which had been voted to begin making these payments. The Minister of Pensions and National Health replied that legal advice had been obtained indicating that this would not be possible. A little later on, by way of further response to my question, the Minister of Finance made this reply, as reported at page 2757 of Hansard:
May I point out that whenever interim supply is asked for the opposition always reserves the right to oppose any item; therefore the granting of interim supply does not carry with it the sanction of any particular item.
I point out to the minister that if there was anything to that right of the opposition to oppose any item, the opposition also has a right to take a positive stand, and we are unanimous in urging him to make these payments retroactive at least to the beginning of the present fiscal year.
I said a moment ago I would call the Prime Minister as my chief witness. I refer hon. members seriously to the debate which took place in the house on April 20 andi 21 with respect to the voting of money for parliamentary assistants to the ministers. Hon. members will recall that at that time we voted $40,000. The matter went through the committee stage and the various readings on April 20 and 21, and finally passed on April 21. That day an hon. member asked the Prime Minister when these salaries of $4,000 a year to the parliamentary assistants would begin. As reported at page 2397, the Prime Minister replied;
The payments will start from the date of the appointments, certainly; but I would say to the committee that some hon. members have been giving a great deal of their time to the work of some of the departments and at a later time, possibly in a supplementary estimate, I may ask that they be given some consideration for the time already spent in that way.
Then, a little later on, on the same day-
The CHAIRMAN; I must direct the attention of the hon. member to the fact that he
cannot quote from speeches during the present session, unless those speeches deal with a problem we are now discussing. I refer him to standing order 41, citation 293 (a):
. . . that a member, while speaking, must not: (a) refer to any debate of the same session on any question not then under discussion.
I would ask the hon. member to observe that rule.
Mr. KNOWLES; I accept your ruling, Mr. Chairman. However, I shall refer to the sentiment then expressed in the same debate by the Prime Minister when he said, in effect, "I am sure hon. members of this house would not want these parliamentary assistants to fail to get consideration for what they have done already, through the failure of this house to get to the appropriate item in the estimates."
Mr. Chairman, I submit that the position is exactly the same in the present instance. Surely hon. members of this house do not want these women to be deprived of $40 or $60 each to which they are entitled, merely through a failure of the house to reach an item in the estimates. If it was possible to make payments on account of $4,000 salaries to parliamentary assistants retroactive to April 1, in addition to their indemnities, even (hough the amounts were not passed in the house until April 21, then although I am not a lawyer I cannot for the life of me see why the same thing cannot be done for these women.
As a matter of fact, there is another reference in the same debate I would have read, had I been in order. However, I shall refer to it only from memory. The Prime Minister said that some of these parliamentary assistants had been giving assistance to the ministers during a period even prior to the commencement of the present fiscal year. He said that at a later date he might ask the house to vote a supplementary estimate to make possible payments on account of salary to those parliamentary assistants for the period, prior to April 1, 1943.
I wish to make it very clear that I am not objecting to the parliamentary assistants receiving pay for the time they worked. I agree with the principle; in fact, we in this group object to the principle that is followed all too often, of having men work for the government for nothing or for a dollar a year. We claim that is the most costly kind of service one can obtain. We accept the principle with respect to these parliamentary assistants; but if it is possible legally to pay these parliamentary assistants for what they did prior to April 1, as I interpreted the Prime Minister's
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remarks, then. I impress upon the minister with all the persuasion of which I am capable that I see no reason why the same thing cannot be done for these- widows. I ask him to go to battle on this for all he is worth. It will not make up for what they have been denied for twenty years, but the least we can do now is to see to it that those who are entitled to this pension get it back to April 1.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I may repeat what I said before; apparently I did not impress it upon my hon. friend. I have already taken up the very point which is now in debate. The same idea occurred to me that has occurred to him.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Did the minister take up with the Department of Justice-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Payments cannot be made until the estimate has been passed by this house. I have explored and am still exploring the question of retroactive payments, and I can tell my hon. friend that if it can be done I shall recommend most strongly that they be paid in that way, but I doubt very much whether I shall be able to do that.


Stanley Howard Knowles: Did the minister take up with the Department of Justice the point I have just raised, namely the retroactive payments to the parliamentary assistants? The Prime Minister said that they would be paid.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is an opinion from justice, an opinion from other law officers and an opinion from the chief treasury officer, all to the same effect. I may be able to make such recommendations in future as may overcome some of these objections. Certainly I shall do my best, but I am afraid I may not succeed, so that I want to warn my hon. friend,


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: This extension of the pension to the widows of war veterans is a forward step, and I am sincerely glad that it has been taken. I know personally some of the women who have been trying to bring this about, and even this small amount will be of great help to the women who receive it. I want to urge that it be administered liberally; that is really the main thing I wish to say.
1 hope those who have charge of the administration will remember that this measure is for the benefit of those who are the recipients of it. While there must be investigations, I hope those investigations will be carried out as fairly, courteously and generously as possible. We really need far more trained workers among those who come into contact with the individual pensioners, because sometimes 
the good intent of a measure is largely negatived by the way in which it is carried out. I would _ suggest that quite a number of these administrators should be women, and that if the necessary qualifications can be found in women who have suffered similar losses, they be given consideration above other applicants.


Clarence Gillis: There are a few points I should like the minister to clarify. I wish to compliment him upon being successful in bringing this matter before the committee at the pres-sent time. I know it has been a battle for twenty-five years on the part of some of the members of this house, and I think the minister has always been sympathetic. I know when the pensions committee considered this matter two years ago there was no difficulty in having the present minister of pensions agree to do what he could in the matter. I think the joker behind the scheme has been the treasury board, and I hope he will be able to persuade them along the lines suggested by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.
The hon. member for Edmonton East very well said a moment ago that the test of any legislation is in its administration, and in that connection there are one or two points I should like to put to the minister now. In the first place I understand that this grant is to be administered in accordance with the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act, and that the widows will be subject to the limitations of that act. I would interpret this to mean that only the widow of a veteran who served in a theatre of war, or a veteran who is receiving a five per cent pension and has attained the age of fifty-five years, will be entitled to this grant. Those limitations will cause a great deal of disappointment to a large number of the widows of veterans of the last war who have been actively carrying on a fight for the last fifteen years at least to bring about that which we have under consideration at the present time. I think the general impression of hon. members is that all widows of veterans who served in the last war and who are in necessitous circumstances will immediately come under this grant, but such is not the situation. As I pointed out a moment ago, it is only the widows of veterans who served in a theatre of war, veterans in receipt of pensions and who have reached the age of fifty-five years.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Or who are incapable or likely to be incapable of earning a livelihood; the same provision as we have in the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


Clarence Gillis: That is right. I believe the veterans of the last war, who filled premature

Supply-Pensions
graves, who were not able to prove entitlement to pension and who did not come under the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act were the subject of the main fight that has been carried on during the years, and I believe hundreds of widows who are in necessitous circumstances will not be able to benefit under this grant. When this measure was brought in I had hoped that the government was making an appropriation which would apply to widows who were not covered by the War Veterans' Allowance Act, or the Pension Act, because those who came under either of those acts received some measure of protection and some consideration.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Only for twelve months.


Clarence Gillis: That is right. This provision is serving a useful purpose; there is no doubt about that, but I think it should be extended to include the widows of veterans of the last war who saw service and who for years have been living on the border-line of starvation; not old enough to qualify for old age pensions, in many cases physically incapacitated, with no provision of any kind for their care. I think the minister might still press for administrative latitude, where there are extenuating circumstances, regardless of the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act.
Mention was made of the means test. In my opinion the application of the grant on the basis of necessitous circumstances is much preferable to the meritorious service provision in the old act. Under the old act, unless you were a general and had won the Victoria Cross your widow could never qualify for the grant.
I have associated for a long time with those who administer the Pension Act and the War Veterans' Allowance Act, and I have always found them sympathetic and feel sure that they will apply this provision as it is intended to be applied. A large number of applications have been filed on the basis of meritorious service, and I should like to know if these will be considered, or if new claims will have to be made. I have tried to straighten out many cases under the other section, and I am wondering now if we shall have to go back over the ground and make other applications.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If eligibility exists under this estimate, the case will be considered.


Clarence Gillis: There will be a reexamination of the case?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


George Hugh Castleden: I asked how many
applications had been made and what was the estimated number of applications it was expected would be made.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I do not know how many applications have come in, but the estimate is based upon 1,836 applications for this year.


George Hugh Castleden: How many widows are there in Canada? Are there any statistics on that?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have not those figures under my hand at the moment. We have the number of widows of pensioners, but I do not think we have the number of widows of veterans.


George Hugh Castleden: How many allowance cases are being paid at the present time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: A total of 24,192.


George Hugh Castleden: No widows are receiving pensions as yet?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Just an allowance for a period of twelve months after the decease of the recipient.


George Hugh Castleden: Has any arrangement
been made to enlarge this grant in case it is not sufficient to cover the number of applications made which may be considered eligible?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We can always do that by a supplementary. Financial provision will be made for the number who will qualify under the estimate.


George Hugh Castleden: When shall we receive a copy of the regulations under which this will be administered?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As soon as they are passed. I hope to have them passed next Monday, and they will be tabled the next day.


Victor Quelch: I	understand that this
legislation will apply to the widows of soldiers who were in reecipt of war veterans' allowance on their death, or who had made application and who would have received it had they lived?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And who possessed the necesary military qualifications to receive a veterans' allowance.


Victor Quelch: Assuming that a soldier
was fifty-four years old when he died and was therefore debarred from receiving a war veteran's allowance, would his widow be
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eligible for this on the sixtieth anniversary of her husband's birth, provided the circumstances warranted it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no automatic provision, but I shall be very glad to give that matter consideration.


Howard Charles Green: If a veteran is a widower
and has a child or children he is entitled to $40 a month instead of $20. Will the same provision apply to widows?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Howard Charles Green: In other words, if she has a child or children will she get a double allowance?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; there is no provision, but it is a point we can explore further.


Howard Charles Green: If the War Veterans' Allowance Act is followed, then certainly a widow with a child or children should get $40.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to discuss that further.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any reason why provision should not be made to give free medical treatment to these widows, the same as the recipients of war veterans' allowances get?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They do not get it.


Howard Charles Green: Under class 18.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Only special cases.


Howard Charles Green: The recipient of a war veterans' allowance gets treatment under special conditions. Is there any reason why the same provision could not be made for the widow?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course any veteran is entitled to treatment under class 18, but the endeavour here is to give the same benefits to the widow as were conferred on the recipient under the War Veterans' Allowance Act.


Howard Charles Green: There is no intention of giving the widow free medical treatment?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Howard Charles Green: The minister said a few minutes ago that the widow of any veteran who was covered by the War Veterans' Allowance Act could get this payment. As I read the vote, it refers only to the widows of veterans who served in the war of 1914-18.

I think the minister should make it perfectly clear whether or not the widow of a Soutn African veteran can get this allowance.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is certainly the intention, and it will be made clear in the regulations.


Mr. ROSS (Calgary East):: I wish to compliment the minister upon the sympathy he has shown to the widows of war veterans by providing this vote in the estimates. These people are deserving, and I should like to see more done for them. I do not think this goes far enough, but it is a step in the right direction.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
21/0. Departmental administration, $730,858.
William Pate Mulock: Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few remarks on the subject and give a general idea of the financial position of the department. In presenting the estimates of the Post Office Department for a period overlapping the fourth and fifth years of the war, I have to report that this service is continuing to the best of its ability to carry out its obligations to the public and its cooperation with other government bodies referred1 to in the statement which I made to the committee in July last. I have no desire to occupy time unnecessarily by again going over the ground traversed on that occasion, but it may not be out of place to point out that this cooperation has kept pace with the expansion of functions and activities, such as rationing, which has taken place during the past year.
Taking up first the financial position of the department as shown by revenue and expenditure, may I point out that in presenting the post office estimates last year I was able to report receipts for 1941-42 which up to then constituted an all-time high for the department. For 1942-43 the report is the same. The gross revenue shows an increase of $3,697,979 over 1941-42, or 6-6 per cent. The net revenue increased by $2,874,890, or 6'24 per cent. Increase in revenue merely reflects increased mailings. The increase mentioned does not indicate the extent of increased mailings, because it is necessary to consider also the postage value of franked mail which in 1942-43 showed an increase of more than $700,000 over 1941-42. Augmented mail volume necessitates added operational costs- more staff, more salaries and bonus, more space in railway cars, on planes other than T.C.A. and on steamboats, and more expenditure for stationery and equipment of all kinds.

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If we now look at expenditure figures for a moment we find that there is an increase over
1941-	42 of $3,240,118, or 12-8 per cent, and I wish to call the attention of the committee to the differing conditions in the two years under review.
The first point of difference is in the cost of living bonus. In the months of April, May, June, and July of 1941, straight salaries only were paid. Commencing August 1, employees under $2,100 per annum received the benefit of an 11 per cent cost of living bonus.
In 1942-43, the cost of living bonus was operative throughout the whole year, 11 per cent being the rate from April to July inclusive and 17 per cent for the remaining eight months.
So that in comparing the two years it is necessary to take into account the fact that during the first four months of 1942-43 an 11 per cent bonus was paid, whereas during the same period of 1941-42 there was no bonus, and that during the remaining eight months of 1942-43 the bonus rate was 54-5 per cent higher than during the same period of 1941-42.
Translated into figures, the bonus payments in 1941-42 amounted to $1,039,369, while in
1942-	43 they were, almost $2,105,000. Even if there had been no increase in the bonus rate, the expenditure under this heading in 1942-43 would still have been approximately $500,000 greater than in 1941-42.
The second point of difference is the increased volume of mail. Expenditure from the railway mail service vote alone in 1942-43 shows an increase of nearly $600,000 over 1941-42. A large part of this increase is in mail service by railway, but a greater part is in mail service by steamboat. As explained last year, ocean conveyance has been wholly provided for by the Post Office Department since subsidies were withdrawn by the Department of Trade and Commerce. Seaborne mail now consists largely of letters and parcels to troops overseas and letters from them to relatives and friends here.
To illustrate the situation more clearly, may I point out that prior to the war post office estimates provided to the extent of only about $325,000 for mail service by water. Hon. mem-oers will note that the estimates for 1943-44 contain provision to the extent of $2,500,000.
A third point of difference is in mail service ay air and by ordinary land conveyance. The expenditure from this vote in 1942-43 was $988,000 greater than in 1941-42. This is due to two factors, first the expansion of Trans-Canada and other air services to meet the needs of the public and war conditions, and
second, rising costs of service by ordinary land. These are factors over which the department has no control and which must be provided for if service is to be maintained.
The estimates for 1943-44 show an increase of slightly over $3,000,000 as compared with 1942-43. On examination it will be found that this increase is very largely due to the categories of expenditure I have already mentioned, namely, cost of living bonus, mail service by railway and steamboat, also mail service by air and ordinary land conveyance.
With the exception of these items the estimates for this year are practically on a level with those of the preceding fiscal period.
In conclusion, I wish to pay tribute to the loyalty and' cooperation of all postal personnel under frequently trying war-time conditions. Postal workers, whether they be paid from parliamentary appropriation, postmasters of revenue offices and their assistants, mail contractors and their couriers, are all contributing to the support of our country's war-time financing, and many of them are giving of their spare time in war activities of various kinds. I am glad indeed to take advantage of this opportunity to express on behalf of the government appreciation of the services rendered by postal personnel, whether acting in their official capacities or as private citizens of this dominion.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I wish to congratulate the minister upon the statement he has just made and to associate myself with the tribute of appreciation he has paid to the members of the post office staff right across this country for performing such valuable services in our national life under very trying conditions. I think it is remarkable that the Post Office Department has been able to give the service it has been giving to the people of Canada and to our armed forces scattered over the entire world with so very few complaints.
I have a suggestion I wish to make in the hope that consideration will be given to it by the minister between now and next year. Of course, we always have to speak in terms of improving these services. It amazes me that the Post Office Department is able to give as good a service as it does with political patronage as it is in this country. I should like the minister to bring in a recommendation while he holds office to set up a public service utility to administer the handling of mail along the lines of the operation of the Canadian National Railways, removing the service entirely from political patronage. I say this as a member of the opposition, expressing a good deal of sympathy for members of the govern-
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ment when I read some of the sessional papers and realize how embarrassed the members must be when they recommend the appointments that some of them do, and then have the grief that frequently follows.
I have here a sessional paper in connection with the appointment of a postmaster at Endeavour, in my constituency. I would not take the time to discuss it if it were not a typical case.


William Pate Mulock: Perhaps the hon. member would not mind waiting until we reach the next item, 241, which deals with post offices. The item before us deals with the general administration of the department.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I was going to cite
this case to support my argument but if it will accommodate the minister I shall be glad to resume my remarks when we reach the next item.


William Pate Mulock: Thank you.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I understand that the
Post Office Department handles the registration cards. When these forms are sent out to the individual post offices, what is the machinery for registering the people? Are they counted or numbered?


William Pate Mulock: The names are registered through to the local registrar of the district concerned.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Suppose a post office
gets 100 or 150 of these forms. Does each individual postmaster have to account for each one of those forms? They are not numbered yet, are they?


William Pate Mulock: My officials advise me that the postmasters have to account for every form.


Grote Stirling: The minister has referred to the increase in revenue, both gross and net. Would he indicate what sum he anticipates receiving from the extra cent postage, dividing it between land and air?


William Pate Mulock: It is a little early to give any definite information, but it would seem that about $9 millions is indicated at the present time from the one-cent revenue tax placed by the Department of Finance on the post office.


Grote Stirling: Including both land and air?


William Pate Mulock: Yes, all letters.


Grote Stirling: Can he divide it? He is not in a position to say what portion of that will be derived from the seven cents for the air letters?


William Pate Mulock: Not as yet, no.


Grote Stirling: Could the minister give
any general statement with regard to the condition of airmail overseas? Is it received at present at both ends, and if it is, can he give any explanation of the extraordinary delays which occur, particularly in the mail coming westbound?


William Pate Mulock: Yes, I think I can give the hon. member that information. Notices are being sent to ithe postmasters throughout this country that, commencing immediately, we shall be in a position to take care of the 30-cent half-ounce letter, namely, the ordinary letter which can be handled by air from now on to Britain. Outside of an accumulation on account of very, very heavy mailings of the armed forces letters at Christmas time, there have been very few delays except the ordinary delays which cannot be avoided owing to bad flying weather. I know my hon. friend understands that there have been no delays in -the airgraphs. While we are on the point of airgraphs, I might say that we have been able to speed this service up considerably. At first the messages had to be dispatched to the United States, either New York or Rochester for processing. The Canadian airgraph messages received the same treatment in proportion to the number of United States airgraph messages, which they call "V mail." If a very heavy United States mail arrived, there would be delay in getting some of our airgraph messages processed, and considerable delay did occur. I am glad to be able to report to the committee that that work is now being carried- on in Canada and will certainly cut the time by at least forty-eight hours, and in many cases, such as delays on account of heavy United States mailings, a great deal more than that.
That relates to mail going to Britain. I would advise the hon. member, although I think he knows, that the Post Office Department of this country is not responsible for mails until they arrive in Canada. We are not responsible for mail dispatched from Britain; that is the responsibility of the Postmaster General of Great Britain. We are no more responsible for them than we are for mail sent from Mexico or any other part of the world. I know they are having trouble. I think I can say, without giving away any confidences-it is, perhaps, clear to everyone-that there are more planes going to Britain than are returning. That is the

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story. It is easier to get mail across whereas the Postmaster General of Great Britain at times finds difficulty in- obtaining enough planes to handle all the airmail which is destined for Canada and the United States. There is a considerable accumulation of airmail for Canada. The Right Hon. Mr. Morrison, then Postmaster General of Great Britain, discussed the matter with me when I was in England last year, and explained the difficulty. There was just not a sufficient supply of planes to take care of the airmail, and rather than delay it all the way down the line and hold back further airmail which was coming in, he dispatched a very large amount of it on a fast ship to Canada and so cleaned up the accumulation. Had it not been done in that way there would have been delay for months and months before the accumulation could have been disposed of.


Grote Stirling: Can I gather from what the minister has said that the westbound airmail for some time has been coming by direct plane and not by a more devious route?


William Pate Mulock: I think I can say that it
has been, coming direct for some time.


Ernest George Hansell: Would the minister give us a little more detail with respect to the revenues that have been received? I should like a break-down of the revenues which are produced:. How much do we receive, for instance, as a result of overseas mail, of first-class mail, and of second-class mail? I appreciate the difficulty of answering the question in respect to the extra cent tax. We must, however, be receiving quite a revenue from first-class mail, with the rate of four cents on every letter which is posted.


William Pate Mulock: I can give my hon. friend the information for the year previous but I cannot give it ito him yet for the last year. It will be available in a few months.


Ernest George Hansell: If the minister can give it for the year previous it will help to some extent, but we are getting well on in the year and it would seem to me that a balance could be struck. However, I know we can call for a return at any time. Will the minister give us the latest he has?


William Pate Mulock: I will give the poundage
and the revenue: First-class, 22,000,000 pounds, revenue $26,000,000; second-class, 116,420,000 pounds, revenue $1,853,600; third-class, 33,700,000 pounds, revenue $4,500,000; parcels, 77,000,000 pounds, revenue $6,500,000; local letters, revenue $5,100,000.


Ernest George Hansell: Has the minister the overseas amount? Are the figures separated?


William Pate Mulock: I can give it in pounds, if that will help the hon. member. I have that information here for the last three calendar years. Letters and postcards: 1940, 124,005 pounds; 1941, 275,268 pounds; 1942, 502,909 pounds. Other classes except parcel post: 1940, 569,665 pounds; 1941, 1,307,797 pounds; 1942, 1.975,698 pounds. Parcel post: 1940, 3,953,260 pounds; 1941, 6,470,089 pounds; 1942, 15,806,645 pounds. Tobacco parcels: 1940, not available; 1941, 2,506,606 pounds; 1942, 4,643,375 pounds. Totals: for the calendar year 1940, 4,646,930; 1941, 10,559,760; 1942, 22,928,627 pounds.


Ernest George Hansell: I thank the minister for the information, and now that I have these figures I am not so certain what to do with them. I was more anxious to get a break-down of revenue than of poundage. The minister said that there were more planes going eastward than coming from overseas. Is that on account of the feriy command, the bombers going overseas?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


Ernest George Hansell: In connection with the congestion of mail that might result, coming from overseas, is there a priority in the carriage of mail?


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member no doubt heard the statement of the Minister of Munitions and Supply with regard to the new Canadian service. That, as I understand it, is for the armed services and official mail and not for civilian use. I understand that is the tenor of the agreement. So far as we are concerned, in our mail going to Britain the first priority is airgraph. In airgraph we can move a tremendous number of messages in case of congestion. We can get more letters over and have a faster communication than in any other way. Next comes the armed forces' air letter. That is much lighter material or paper than is ordinarily used, and that is second priority. Letters to troops go first so far as we are concerned, but of course there are exceptions. If there were some urgently required government dispatches or something of that kind that would be an exception. There must be exceptions to every rule.


Gordon Graydon: I do not know whether the question I am about to ask is pertinent to this item. With regard to the operation of the Post Office Department, there must be some working relationship with the board of censors, because a good deal of censorship is complicated with the mail service and the
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Post Office Department generally, I think it would be of interest to the committee if the Postmaster General would indicate the manner in which the two services, that of censorship and the Post Office Department, actually operate in a mechanical way. I would ask him also if the arrangements between the board of censors and the Post Office Department are working satisfactorily.


William Pate Mulock: I appreciate the interest the leader of the opposition has in this matter, and I can assure him that my officials and those of the war services are getting on very well. In fact, a large number of them, engaged in postal censorship, were formerly postal employees on the payroll of the Post Office Department until a few months ago. I do not want to go into details because I am not dealing with that matter, but if the censors ask the Post Office Department for requirements we try to cooperate and see that they get them. That is about as much as I can say. Censorship does not come under my department.


Gordon Graydon: I was not suggesting that it did. But I did want to know something of the relationship that exists between the two branches. Perhaps it would help the minister in giving the details if he could tell me what is the mechanical arrangement in connection with the submission of letters and other documents that go through the post office. Are there representatives of the board of censors in the Post Office Department, or how is the censorship actually worked out mechanically?


William Pate Mulock: There is a post office and a dead letter office in the censorship.


Gordon Graydon: What the minister means may be perfectly clear to him; but does that mean that, so far as letters that go through the ordinary mail are concerned, a proportion of them are censored, or how is the censorship actually worked with regard to the great volume of mail? I can understand that all letters are not opened, but a certain percentage of them are opened from time to time and I should like to know whether any letters are opened that are posted in Ottawa for instance. Are there any opened and examined by the censor? If so, which letters does the censor actually choose for examination out of the great volume of mail, and how is it actually done, having relation to the position of the Postmaster General?


William Pate Mulock: I have no information.


Gordon Graydon: The Postmaster General is leaving the matter surrounded by an air of mystery. When I first asked the question I did so innocently because I did not know that

there was any mystery surrounding it. Surely the Postmaster General is in a position to give a simple answer to my question. Are there representatives of the board of censors in any branch of the Post Office Department?


William Pate Mulock: No.


Grote Stirling: Can the minister explain this:	I receive letters from Great Britain
which reach me through the machinery of the post office. A very considerable number of them, almost all of them, are opened, and fastened up again with a white strip of paper having black lettering on it. Is that done in Great Britain, or in Canada?


William Pate Mulock: In Great Britain.


Grote Stirling: Is anything similar to
that done after a letter has been put into the hands of the officials of the Postmaster General in Canada for dispatch to Great Britain?


William Pate Mulock: That is really a question
for the Department of National War Services. The matter of censorship is under the minister of that department. I know when it was under the post office I learned, when talking to officials from Great Britain, that they were not very keen on information being given; in fact they impressed strongly upon officials of this department and upon myself that we should not give information with respect to the details of the system of censorship. I would rather have the Minister of National War Services deal with this matter, because it comes under his jurisdiction, and he will know the general feeling, particularly in Great Britain and the United States, with regard to censorship. I believe they work along nearly the same lines.


Grote Stirling: That is good enough for me.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps the minister might have said that he declined to answer my original question for purposes of security rather than the answer he actually gave. My understanding is that the board of censors has representatives in some of the post offices.


William Pate Mulock: Our employees have to
do the physical act, if that is what the leader of the opposition means. They must perform the physical act of moving the mail to the censor; to that extent the hon. member is correct.


Gordon Graydon: For the time being I
believe that clears up what I wanted to know, namely, the relationship between the board of censors and the Post Office Department. It seemed to me that from the point of view

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of mechanics the two departments would have to work closely together, hand in hand, in* order that censorship might be carried out. Naturally the details of censorship would not fall within the purview of the minister's department, but rather within the department headed by the Minister of National War Services. I did want to know what degree of cooperation existed between the two departments.
Mr. LaFLECHE:	I take it the leader of
the opposition inquired as to the mechanics of dealing with the situation. If I might be permitted, I would say that on the staff of the censorship branch there are two senior employees from the Post Office Department occupying top positions, and they see to all the requirements, including those I am sure in the mind of the leader of the opposition. I shall take note of what has been asked tonight, and at a later time I shall give as much detail as I can.


Gordon Graydon: I believe that answers
one of the questions I had in mind. It seemed to me there must be some liaison of some description between the Post Office Department and the department of the minister who has just taken his seat.


William Pate Mulock: If I did not make it clear before, may I tell the leader of the opposition that a considerable number of our employees are on loan to the Department of National War Services. These are experienced men, lifelong employees of the department.


Gordon Graydon: Are those employees
seconded from the Post Office Department to the Department of National War Services? Do they now come within the jurisdiction of the Department of National War Services, so that they are no longer connected with the Post Office Department?


William Pate Mulock: That is correct, for the
duration of the war, while they are retained in the Department of National War Services.


Gordon Graydon: How many officials have been seconded from the Post Office Department to the Department of National War Services?


William Pate Mulock: Twenty employees. Does
the leader of the opposition want the names?


Gordon Graydon: No.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The minister said censorship from Great Britain to Canada was done by British authorities. With respect to mail going the other way, namely from Canada to Great Britain, is it done by Canadian authorities?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


Ernest George Hansell: While this item is before the committee I should like to say only a few words. I do not believe one letter of my Canadian mail has been opened by any censor; I refer to any letter written to me in Canada. But, while I make that statement, I must protest against any mail addressed to any member of parliament being opened by anyone-a censor, or anyone else. The basis upon which I make that objection is simply this: A member of parliament is elected by his people. Those people had absolute confidence in him, or he would not have been elected.


Gordon Graydon: The majority of them
had, you mean.


William Pate Mulock: I would draw the hon.
member's attention to the fact that censorship is under the Department of National War Services.


Ernest George Hansell: All right; I shall take it
up when the estimates for that department are before the committee. I send this envelope to the Postmaster General, and I want him to tell me by whom it was censored. It is addressed to "E. G. Hansell, M.P., House of Commons, 'Ottawa, Ontario."


Gordon Graydon: Where is it from?


Ernest George Hansell: England.


William Pate Mulock: My officials advise me this was censored in England.


Ernest George Hansell: Then let me have it
back, please. I was going to add that that letter was from my mother. I receive from her letters every few weeks. I have never had a letter from her since the war started which has not been censored-not one.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
241. Post offices, including salaries and other expenses of headquarters and staff post offices and supplies and equipment for revenue post offices, $18,475,433.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: A few minutes ago I
mentioned a case which I am afraid is fairly typical. This is about the fourth of its kind brought to my attention in my own constituency. While Endeavour is not a very large place-possibly very few hon. members have ever heard of it-the people who live there are just as important in the life of Canada as the people who live at Ottawa, Toronto or Montreal. Those people make their full contribution in war time as in peace time. Unfortunately the majority of them are not permitted to travel across Canada to learn what contribution Canada
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is making in the present conflict. They are able to judge what we do with our money by our administration of post offices.
This is the case of a postmaster who in April, 1942, was found to be $386 short in funds when the inspector came to check the cash. He signed a statement to that effect. This is the statement:
I hereby acknowledge that the sum of $386 of post office funds has not been accounted for by me as required by statute.
I am sure that, in failing to produce these funds, I have rendered myself liable to prosecution and to such other action as the Postmaster General may find it necessary to take, in order to protect the public interest.


Gordon Graydon: Is that a sessional paper?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Yes, a sessional paper which was brought down on February 10. In due course I want the Postmaster General to state what has been done about this man who admits that he is liable to prosecution when he is short public funds to the extent of $386. The inspector did what an inspector should do in a situation like this; he canvassed the field, selected an ex-service man and appointed him as temporary postmaster. The wife of this ex-service man is a graduate of Queen's university, and she was to be assistant postmaster. In due course the inspector advised Ottawa and Ottawa advised the defeated Liberal candidate in that riding, telling him what had happened and asking him what to do about it. That was on April 27.


William Pate Mulock: Perhaps the hon. gentleman means that he was asked for recommendations, not for instructions.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I will read the letter if
the minister wishes. In any event Mr. Barrie, who was the defeated candidate, replied:
After having given the matter of filling the vacancy at Endeavour, Saskatchewan, full consideration, I am attaching hereto the nomination in favour of Nelson R. McGregor.
Then he goes on to give Mr. McGregor's qualifications, and this gentleman was appointed on August 8. The people of the community were kept in suspense from April until August, but then the local Liberal association got together and wrote a letter to the district superintendent, as follows:
We kindly ask you to hold us abeyance the appointment of the postmaster at Endeavour and the appointment of Mr. McGregor. We, as association, recognize that Mr. McGregor is not a residence of Endeavour and do not wish him to succeed Mr. Izdebski as postmaster. We are taking this matter up with the Postmaster General at Ottawa.

I am reading this letter as it appears in the official file. Then they passed some resolutions, copies of which were sent to the Postmaster General. It was moved:
That we recommend Mr. Oscar Clementson to succeed former postmaster Mr. Bolas Izdebski.
Another motion was:
That the committee wait for Mr. Ross Barry to discuss the matter for Mr. Clementson about the post office.
Another motion was that Mr. Starkes arrange to meet Mr. Ross Barrie; another motion was that the committee circulate a petition for the appointment of Mr. Oscar Clementson as postmaster. Those resolutions were passed on August 14. Eventually Mr. McGregor, who was appointed, wrote to Mr. Underwood1 on August 22 saying:
Through unavoidable circumstances arriving since I had made my application as postmaster, I am unable to accept the position.
Then the Post Office Department went to a great deal of trouble. Mr. Hunter, the district superintendent in Saskatoon, who is a very efficient man, was put to the expense and trouble of telephoning long distance to see whether Mr. McGregor was taking the office or just what was going to happen. Then it was necessary for Mr. Underwood to write Mr. Barrie again on August 28 telling him of the trouble and of all the. applications that had been received. Finally Mr. Clementson was appointed, about August 31. Then on September 26, after a good deal of local trouble, Mr. Clementson declined the position and on October 8 Mr. Avery found it necessary to write Mr. Barrie regarding the situation.


Gordon Graydon: Who represents the constituency now?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I happen to be the member. I want to make it perfectly clear that when I am sitting across the floor of the house as a member of the government we shall not have this sort of thing in the administration of the affairs of the Post Office Department in this country.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What would you recommend now?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I shall come to that in a few moments. A short time ago I said we should set up a public service commission to administer the affairs of the Post Office Department, so that the hon. member for Essex East, for example, would be relieved of the embarrassment which I am sure he has felt when he has had to recommend one person for appointment and thus antagonize a great

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many others. Now here is a personal letter from Mr. Barrie, but since it appears in this file I presume it becomes public. He says:
This office has been very unfortunate in that I have now nominated two returned men for the position and each have for personal reasons and certain circumstances refused the appointment.
He does not want to make another recommendation. The man who was selected by the inspector in April, had been carrying on throughout the summer without a single complaint; he was a returned soldier, but for some reason which Mr. Barrie does not give here Mr. Sinclair was not appointed. Then on October 15 Mr. Avery wrote a long letter to Mr. Barrie, outlining the situation and saying:
Mr. Sinclair is a returned soldier who saw service in England, in France and in Belgium during the last war. He has conducted the post office satisfactorily from the 17th April,
1942.	He first asked to be relieved of the office on the 31st August, but as the person nominated by you declined it was necessary to ask Mr. Sinclair to carry on for a further period. He again asked definitely to be relieved of the office on the 30th September and again your nominee declined and Mr. Sinclair is still carrying on.
On October 30 Mr. Barrie wrote another letter, in which he said:
I regret that this matter has been so long delayed and then has to end in this manner but it was unavoidable. I trust that this will allow you to settle this matter at least for the time being, if not permanently.
Then the local branch of the legion found it necessary, on November 27, to send a telegram to the Postmaster General, as follows:
Present postmaster Sinclair appointment be sustained request of executive committee.
So that Mr. Sinclair, the man who was selected in the first place, finally was appointed on December 18. On January 7, 1943, Mr. Underwood wrote Mr. Barrie as follows:
Mr. Dugald Patrick Sinclair, returned soldier, was appointed pennanently as postmaster at the above office dating from the 18th December.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask what was the date of the last letter the hon. gentleman read? That would not be during the war-time period, would it?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: It was dated January 7,
1943.	The correspondence goes back to April 17, 1942. The point I wish to make is that in this community where there were veterans of the last war residing, we see this state of confusion; we see public funds unaccounted for, and no satisfactory investigation carried on. Two men are recommended), for political reasons, and appointed; their appointments are unsatisfactory to the people of the community, and finally the man selected by the
inspector in the first place was appointed. I want to urge, Mr. Chairman, that the present Postmaster General give consideration to removing the Post Office Department from the embarrassment and the waste of time and energy entailed in having to write airmail letters and send communications to defeated Liberal candidates before an appointment can be made to a little country post office. I should like the Postmaster General to tell me now what is his policy in connection with cases like this of the former postmaster at Endeavour, who was short 8386. I understand that if a postal clerk here in the city post office is caught to-night taking an envelope with a dollar bill in it, he is liable to a very heavy penalty. It appears, however, that if the individual concerned is the postmaster and takes something over $300, nothing very much happens to him. Will the minister tell me what happened in connection with this defalcation and make some comment on my suggestion as to the possibility of removing these appointments from political patronage?


William Pate Mulock: From what the hon. member has said I would judge that all the persons concerned with this appointment were returned soldiers.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: That is right.


William Pate Mulock: I would judge also from the statements the hon. member has read that it would be a purely departmental matter.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: No.


William Pate Mulock: I do not think it was referred to me.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The minister received a telegram.


William Pate Mulock: I received a telegram from the legion. I think it is purely a departmental matter and I would have to take it up with the officials. If my hon. friend had mentioned that he was going to bring up this case, I would have seen the officials in charge of it and tried to obtain the information he requires. He will understand that we have not all the details before us.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have just given some details taken from the minister's own return.


William Pate Mulock: The officials who dealt with this matter probably had reasons for taking the action they did. I should like to find out those reasons before I pass them on to the hon. member.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: If the officials had any good reason for not making the appointment
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it should appear in the evidence. I wish to make it clear that an inspector under the minister's supervision made a selection when he found the postmaster was short. After a delay of six months or so, the man he selected was officially appointed in response to public opinion in the community. Apparently the only difficulty was the fact that the defeated Liberal candidate in the constituency was not willing to recommend on the basis of efficiency, but recommended on some other basis which really did not satisfy even the local Liberal executive.


John Gordon Ross: Where did you get that?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I read it in the return. The local Liberal executive was dissatisfied with the first appointment because he was a provincial government inspector. He had been an important factor in the last federal election, but he had left the community to go to another part of the province on provincial government business. He was unsatisfactory to the people in the community for that reason. The Post Office Department did not take any exception to the appointment of Mr. McGregor. As a matter of fact, they appointed him, and the inspector in Saskatoon, as is stated in the return, telephoned long distance to try to locate McGregor to find whether he was going to take the position.


William Pate Mulock: As I understand it, the hon. member's complaint is that one of the officials of the department wrote to the defeated Liberal candidate to ask him for a recommendation, instead of accepting the man who was put temporarily in charge to carry on the office when the postmaster was removed because there had been a shortage of approximately $388. I understand that the hon. member is referring to the man who was actually appointed eventually. He was recommended in the first place by the post office officials.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Yes.


Mr. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: Was the revenue under $3,000?


William Pate Mulock: In the neighbourhood of


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The letter dated May 13 from E. J. Underwood, chief superintendent to J. Ross Barrie, Pelly, Saskatchewan, reads in part:
Would you be good enough to submit your recommendation, for the consideration of the Postmaster General, on the official form attached.
Male persons of military age are not eligible for appointment, but this restriction does not apply to returned soldiers.


William Pate Mulock: What is wrong with that?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Nothing wrong about it except that the whole business was dragged out from April until the first week in January. Instead of acting on the advice of the inspector, the departmental administration wrote to the defeated candidate, who has never been in this chamber, who has never received the endorsation of the people of that community. I submit that the whole business is undemocratic and is not in the best interest of this country at this time. I think the Postmaster General should be prepared to give an undertaking that he will change that.


William Pate Mulock: Am I to understand that, if in the distant future by some accident or some mischance my hon. friend's party should be on this side of the chamber, his party will not consult their defeated candidates about any appointments?


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I wish to make it clear that if the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation cannot get a deputy postmaster general, an assistant deputy postmaster general and a staff of post office officials who can select capable and suitable postmasters and mail carriers, we will fire those who are available and we certainly will not have members of parliament making recommendations as to who will be postmasters, who will be mail clerks and who will be mail carriers. I am shocked to hear the Postmaster General make the admission that it is quite satisfactory to have a defeated candidate who has never been elected cause all this confusion in a community like Endeavour. It has affected the war savings campaign and the victory loan campaign. As I said before, the people judge the administration by what they see in their own back yard, and when this sort of thing goes on it does affect the contributions to other more worthy causes.


Gordon Graydon: I listened to the declaration of the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, or the deputy leader, or the parliamentary assistant to the leader, as the case may foe,, but I always treat these declarations as being something that will never come to pass. The hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) read a rather strange document which appeared in the sessional paper, a document containing an admission of liability to prosecution. Does this document represent the policy of the department? What is meant by an admission of liability to prosecution? Is there any special policy behind that? If a man is liable to prosecution, it seems to me that the department would become an accessory if it took such an admission and then went no farther. After

Questions
all, we have our criminal code. I think a serious responsibility rests upon the department to do something more than simply to leave that in the file. Perhaps something more was done in this case, but the sessional paper read by the hon. member does not indicate that.


William Pate Mulock: Perhaps we can give more particulars when I have had an opportunity of taking this matter up with the officials. I understand that the form referred to has been in use in the department for many years; there is nothing new about it.


Gordon Graydon: That makes it all the worse.


William Pate Mulock: Apparently that has been the established system of the department for many years.


Gordon Graydon: I do not care if it has been in use for fifty years. There is no reason to condone such a practice even though it is a long established usage. This is the kind of thing we ought to reform, and I think the minister would be well advised to give consideration to the position the department is in with respect to the matter.


William Pate Mulock: That is being considered at the present time.


Gordon Graydon: I am glad because it is a serious matter.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The statement I read appears at page 125' of Sessional paper 159. Will the minister state when his estimates are next before the committee., what has been done in this matter since Mr. B. Izdebski signed this statement on April 17, 1942?


William Pate Mulock: I think I have made it clear that I shall inquire from the officials, and as soon as I hear from them I shall certainly make a statement.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Monday, June 21, 1943