1943-07-15

SELECTIVE SERVICE-RESIGNATION OF OFFICIALS AND EMPLOYEES

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West) :: 1.	Upon what date was the resignation of Mr. Elliott Little, director of national selective service, accepted by the government?
2.	Upon what dates were the resignations of the following officials or employees of national selective service accepted by the government: S. T. Garside, E. L. Grabill, L. Holland, L. McGillivray, K. McTaggart, Carl Reinke, Robert Taylor, L. A. Wright?


Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Name-Date resignation accepted: Elliott Little, November 18, 1942.
2.	Name-Date resignation accepted: S. T. Garside, May 31, 1943; E. L. Grabill. March 15, 1943; L. Holland, January 15, 1943; L. McGillivray, November 30. 1942; K. McTaggart, February 1, 1943; Carl Reinke, December 19, 1942; Robert Taylor, November 30, 1942; L. A. Wright, February 16, 1943.



QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN


Mr. PURDY:: What is the approximate number of Canadians. by provinces, now serving and who have served in the merchant marine during the present war?

Canadian Forces-Sicily



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That on Saturday, the 17th July, 1943, and every Saturday thereafter until the end of the present session, the house shall meet at 11 o'clock a.m., and the order of business and procedure shall be the same as on Fridays.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to direct a question to the parliamentary assistant to the President of the Privy Council. I intended to ask this question yesterday, but I do not think the hon. gentleman was in the house at the time, and I do not want to delay the matter further. It is in connection with a point he made in his defence of the wartime information board the day before yesterday, when at page 4722 of Hansard he stated:
The events of the last few days indicate how useful has been the cooperation of the press relations officers, the press associations, the correspondents of newspapers overseas, with the wartime information board at various points in the background, in seeing that the people of this continent got early news of the landing in Sicily, and also that the statements which were made have afterwards received early and favourable notice in the United States both in the press and over the radio.
I am informed that in the dissemination of the news of the landing in Sicily the wartime information board did not play a part, that the news came from the military press relations branches and then was disseminated in the usual way through the Associated Press and United Press and their Canadian associates, the Canadian Press and the British United Press, and other official news channels. The statement of the parliamentary assistant has caused considerable speculation, and I have noticed since preparing this question that there have been numerous editorials dealing with the matter-I see one in this morning's paper-as to what was actually meant by the phraseology the hon. gentleman used, as above mentioned. I should be glad if he would clarify his statement and indicate in what way the wartime information board played a part in the news of the landing in Sicily. I sent him notice of this question, and I should be glad to have this clarification whenever it is convenient to him.


Gordon Graydon: A few moments ago I directed a question to the parliamentary assistant to the President of the Privy Council. I did not notice at that time that he was not in his seat. Perhaps he could now give me an answer.


Mr. BROOKE CLAXTON (Parliamentary Assistant to the President of the Privy Council):: Unfortunately I did not receive my hon. friend's notice of the question before I came into the house, and I should like to take this as notice and give him an answer to-morrow.


Gordon Graydon: I sent my hon. friend notice of my question.


Mr. CHURCH:: That department ought to be abolished.



CANADIAN FORCES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question either to the Minister of National Defence or to the Prime Minister. I do so, not for the purpose of raising any controversy, but to place before the government the necessity of safeguarding Canada's place in the common war effort.
I understand that Canadian newspaper men were prevented from using the information that our first division had landed in Sicily. The Canadian Press dispatch from London last night states, under yesterday's date:
The Canadian first division which landed in Sicily last Saturday and now is fighting as part of Sir Bernard Montgomery's 8th army, has had more than three and a half years' training experience.
I am asking why announcements with respect to operations of the Canadian forces are made from London or from Washington. Does the Minister of National Defence not think that announcements regarding our Canadian commanders or Canadian troops should be made from Canada?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The question of my hon. friend is a very natural one at this time, and one the asking of which I appreciate. He will understand, and I believe the house will understand that in these military operations, where ' the armed forces of three or more countries are involved, there has to be in advance careful consideration not only of the plans, but also
Canadian Forces-Sicily

the manner in which and the time at which matters arising out of the plans are to be announced. The procedure which is adopted is that the governments concerned receive some notice in advance of what is to be expected, and are also told that they will be advised of the time at which an announcement may be made. I think it is perfectly evident that an arrangement of that kind is essential.
But the difficult part of the whole procedure is that, of necessity, these plans are made in the first instance by the combined chiefs of staff, who meet in the United States, and also the chiefs of staff in Great Britain. They are the ones who indicate the information which is to be given out, and the time at which it is to be given out. That information is passed on to our military authorities here. From time to time additional information is sent by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to myself, personally, in a message which is marked "personal and secret" and in one or two instances "for your eye only." These are very secret communications, to keep the ministry informed of what is to be expected. They are to be kept very secret, indeed. That enables one to be prepared to make an announcement when the moment comes.
In preparing these statements the military authorities take into account what they regard as being important in the matter of secrecy.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: And
security.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, and of security-secrecy that is necessary for purposes of security.
In regard to the recent movement of troops to Sicily, our government was informed that for reasons of security it was the opinion of the military authorities in Great Britain that no reference should be made to Canadians participating in the assault upon Sicily. It is not for me to give to the house the reasons why the military authorities took that view, but the fact is that they did take it. It may be that it was felt to be inadvisable, for example, to let Germany know that Canadian troops had left Great Britain. There may have been other reasons. At any rate such information as I received indicated that the announcement would simply refer to allied forces. The first communique to be given out was to be given out practically in the following words, "Allied forces" under the command of General Eisenhower-I do not remember the exact words-have attacked Sicily. It was also mentioned that General Eisenhower would make a statement to the French people. I had advance notice of that statement. The

statement General Eisenhower was to make to the French people was to the effect that "Anglo-American armed forces" had attacked Sicily.
As soon as these statements came to my notice, and to the notice of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston), we immediately communicated with the military authorities in Great Britain, pointing out that since we knew our forces were participating, Canada should be specifically mentioned. I asked and urged very strongly that the announcement should refer to "British, United States and Canadian forces" and that the announcement made to the French people by General Eisenhower should not be in the terms "Anglo-American forces" but rather in the terms "Anglo-American-Canadian forces." Might I add that I did that two days before the announcement was made. If I recollect aright, the announcement was made about midnight on Friday, and this was done on Thursday morning, when I had the first intimation. I took steps immediately by communicating with the High Commissioner for Canada, asking him to assist our military authorities in obtaining permission for the making of an announcement here, the moment the assault took place, that Canadians were among the forces attacking Sicily. I could get no satisfaction from the replies received either through the high commissioner, or those sent to the Department of National Defence by the military authorities.
As I said the other day, so far as the word from Great Britain was concerned we were left in the position where any announcement I was to make should be made on Saturday evening, some twenty-four hours after the Canadians had landed. I believe it is only fair that I should tell the house that on Thursday, realizing the seriousness of the whole ma.tter, realizing that these communiques were to be issued by General Eisenhower, and that the United States government, as well as the British government, would have to take the responsibility for omitting any reference to Canadians, through one of our officials at Washington I got in direct touch with the President of the United States and pointed out that I thought it was an extraordinary thing that a communication should go from General Eisenhower without any mention of the participation of Canadian troops. The President said at once that he agreed entirely with the point of view I had taken, and that he would see to it that General Eisenhower was instructed to include mention of Canadian troops in the communiques he sent out. General Eisenhower was so instructed. Just why in the first announcement

Canadian Forces-Sicily
the words "allied forces" were used, instead of "forces of Great Britain, the United States and Canada," I cannot say. But in the announcement made to the French people almost immediately after, I noticed that General Eisenhower did make specific reference to Canadian, as well as to British and American troops. That undertaking had been given during Friday, and had been communicated by me through the high commissioner in London to the British authorities-that the President of the United States had said he would see that in the announcements which were made by General Eisenhower mention would be made of the participation of Canadian troops. In the light of that undertaking I stated that I could not see why we in Canada should be precluded or why I should be precluded from telling the Canadian people that Canadians were participating. Despite that I was not authorized to alter the position to which I was committed by the information that I had received earlier from Britain. Then, as I told the house yesterday, an announcement was made by military headquarters in the United States which carried out the undertaking which the President said he would see was carried out. There was an announcement from military headquarters at Washington that Canadian, British and United States troops had made an attack upon Sicily. That arrived at a late hour, just immediately after midnight on Friday. When I heard the announcement made I felt that there was no obligation on my part, which would bind me further not to make an announcement to the Canadian people. I immediately made the announcement which I had hoped I would have had the chance to make to this House of Commons before it adjourned on Friday night.
I said yesterday that I am not criticizing anyone. I notice that one communication in the press has indicated that I was criticizing the United States authorities for having disclosed this information. I made no reference capable of that interpretation. I only thank the United States authority for having made public the information they did. What I cannot understand is why at the last minute I, as Prime Minister of Canada, could not get authority to make any statement and as a consequence was bound by the confidential information which I had received from British sources.
I am going to keep all the military secrets I can, but certainly so far as Canadian forces are concerned I am going to regard their services as being on a par with those of the
British and United States forces, not necessarily in the extent of service they may render because of numbers, but from the point of view of quality and efficiency, and of right they are entitled to equality in all the statements that are made in reference to military service.


Major James William Coldwell: May I just thank the Prime Minister for his very frank statement, but I would point out that he has not answered the question I asked regarding the announcement that the troops of Canada are taking part. I believe the Minister of National Defence said the other day that he could not give that information to the house, and yet this dispatch from London appears in the papers w'ithout any reference from our own government, from the Minister of National Defence or from anyone else. That was the point.


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, I can say to the
house that as far back, I think as July 1 or July 2, knowing of the operation which was impending and having regard to what I know to be the desire of the Canadian people to have as much information as possible with regard to Canadian participation, I sent a wire to Canadian military headquarters, which I think was followed up shortly afterwards by a wire to the high commissioner in England, specifically mentioning that it was highly desirable that as soon as the first communique was issued the Canadian Prime Minister or the minister should be in position to give the Canadian people, first, some idea of the number of troops involved; second, the identity of the formation and, third, the name of the commander. There were telegrams back and forth indicating that this was information which it would not be desirable to give at the early stages. On the eighth-I. have some of the telegrams under my hand-we received a definite wire to the effect that information of that kind could not be released until it was indicated by the commander in chief at headquarters that it was not against the interests of security to do so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That would be the headquarters in Africa?


James Layton Ralston: Headquarters in Africa.
That refers to the subject I have mentioned. As I say, that was on the eighth. On the ninth we got further confirmation of that, this time from Washington. Nevertheless, on the eleventh I again sent a communication pointing out that I thought the time had . come when we might possibly release this information. I may say that no reply has
Canadian Forces-Sicily

come to that message which was sent on the eleventh. In addition to that, another message was sent asking that if we could not make the first announcement with regard to the numbers, the identity and the name of the commander, might we be informed as to when that information would be released by allied, headquarters in North Africa so that it would be possible for the Prime Minister to advise the house that notwithstanding the fact that we were not able to give the information, it was anticipated that the information would be released within a short time or on such and such a date. No reply has been received to that either.
Then comes the dispatch to which my hon. friend refers, from a Canadian Press correspondent, which evidently was and must have been passed by the censor at allied headquarters and which I have to regard as a release by the allied commander of that particular bit of information. So far as information with regard to the name of the commander or the approximate number of troops involved is concerned, that still is under wraps, to use a colloquial expression, but it may be that at any time that may, to use another colloquial expression, "break" from allied headquarters. I wish we were in position to give the information here. It is difficult to understand entirely why this information cannot be given. I can imagine that there are good reasons why. And I am not assuming for a single instant, as I said the other day, that people are just being fussy about these things or trying to make it difficult or to be secretive. There is some good reason for it, as I said yesterday, and I think we have to believe that when the time comes the information will be released. That is the position in which the Department of National Defence finds itself.
I just want to close with this one statement. There was an indication in one of the newspapers yesterday that the Department of National Defence had had some hand in the withholding of this information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It said that the censorship was here. I could not understand it.


James Layton Ralston: Censorship in the Department of National Defence; I think that was the indication. Not only has there not been the slightest bar put in the way of the release of this information, but, in the reverse, wre anticipated that the Canadian people would like to have it and we were most anxious that it should be released. As I have said, a week before the operation we began to lay the grounds so that we might have an opportunity

to make that announcement. I only wish it could be made publicly and officially now. I should have liked it if the Department of National Defence could have had the opportunity of doing it from Ottawa. But there is the situation. I should add this that I feel that if in any way the security of even one individual soldier in the Canadian forces is involved in the withholding of this information, then that is paramount to any consideration of the public getting it an hour or two earlier, or from one source or another. I have to be content with that.
I only hope that the information will come in some way. What I do hope above all is that it does not come irregularly, that is to say, that it does not come from some place when it has not been authorized by the commander in chief. I always fear that possibility when information is withheld so long. However, that is the situation. I have to believe that those who are in charge understand the reasons for the action which has been taken and the attitude which they have had to assume, and that the information will come as soon as possible.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask this question? Is this the position, that the department has information as to the numbers and units involved and as to the commander in chief, but that it is not permitted to divulge the information as yet?


James Layton Ralston: That is the exact position at the present time. We have had that information, I should say, for more than four weeks.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there any information with respect to Canadian casualties?


James Layton Ralston: The only information that has been given is what is in the press reports- casualties slight.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That, I suppose, is subject to the same limitations. The information with respect to casualties will be given through the same channels. Will there be details with respect to them?


James Layton Ralston: I endeavoured in a statement given to the press the other morning to indicate the position in respect to casualties. A combined casualty list will not be published for some time; but notification of casualties will be given immediately to the next of kin in the regrettable and unfortunate cases in which there are casualties. The next of kin will be quite free to tell the local newspapers about it, and any reference which is desired may be made in the newspapers. The thing

Jackson Building
that is objected to, and the thing with regard to which a definite arrangement has been made and an understanding given, at the express request of those who are in charge, particularly the British, is that for a considerable period compiled lists of casualties will not be published. People may gather together the local lists, but we will not publish a compiled list for some considerable time. One exception to that is that in the case of the missing; it is not desired that even the names of the missing be published by the next of kin, for the reason that was given at the time of Dieppe namely, that it may be possible that the man reported missing is still at large, and if his name is published it might give some lead which would accelerate action to apprehend him.
In answer to the direct question of the hon. member for York-Sunbury, I was going to say that our position in the Department of National Defence at the present time is that by express advice to us the names of the commanders and the formations and the numbers are not to be the subject of reference, but that these facts will be released at allied headquarters in North Africa when security permits.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: It seems to me that one matter we ought all to keep in mind is that evidently the whole attack on Sicily has been executed with superb success. I gather from the bulletins this morning that our troops are at least twice as far as they expected to be at this time. Whatever the devices were which were considered necessary by the men in authority to obtain that laudable object, they certainly have been successful, and I believe that until we hear all the details it will be well for us here to contain ourselves in patience.



ARRANGEMENTS FOR DELIVERY OF PARCELS AND LETTERS TO TROOPS IN SICILY

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: Can the Postmaster-General inform the house if parcels as well as letters addressed to members of the troops now serving in Sicily will be forwarded to them?


Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster-General):: I am glad to advise the hon. member that arrangements have been made for some considerable time for parcels and letters to be handled wherever the Canadian troops move. He will understand that naturally it will depend on the transport available. Mail will have to go first, and any available space which
will be allotted, I presume, by the representatives of the British admiralty to the postal authorities in Britain will be used1 as far as possible equitably for the handling of parcels to the extent that space warrants it. Of course necessities, munitions and food, will come first, but any extra space will be utilized for the purpose mentioned.



JACKSON BUILDING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Gordon Graydon: May I direct a question to the Minister of Public Works? I understand that the Jackson building in Ottawa comes under his jurisdiction. May I inquire what steps have been taken to investigate the accident which occurred in that building yesterday when one of the elevators went out of control and caused injuries to a number of persons?


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: I wish to thank the leader of the opposition for giving me notice of his question, but I received it just as I came into the house. I have not full information yet as to the accident, but an official of the department is investigating it at the present moment. The Turnbull Elevator company, which has charge of the maintenance and repair of these elevators, if I am rightly informed, has also an investigator at the Jackson building now inquiring into the accident. Later I shall make a further report.


Gordon Graydon: Is any inspection carried on by the Department of Public Works of the elevators in the public buildings here?


Alphonse Fournier: Oh, yes. In addition to inspections by the company which has charge of the maintenance of the elevators, we have our own officials inspecting them regularly.


Gordon Graydon: I think the municipalities have some inspection system as well, and I wanted to know if the department had an inspection system in addition to that.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall have full information in a day or two.



BUTTER BOXES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. H. LECLERC (Shefford):: I wish to draw the attention of the government to the very serious shortage of butter boxes in the
Butter Boxes

eastern townships in Quebec and perhaps in the whole province. Most of the creameries carry a stock of butter boxes through the winter, and we had an order for a lot of butter boxes to be delivered just as soon as the roads opened up in the spring. These boxes have not yet been delivered. On Monday I called up all the box manufacturers in the eastern townships and was informed that they were all running behind in their operations by about twelve weeks and that we could not get butter boxes. I know that all the creameries are in the same position. The Megantic Manufacturing company, which is quite a large manufacturer of butter boxes, informed me that they were running at only fifty per cent of last year's capacity owing to the shortage of labour. Because of high wages elsewhere they cannot keep their help. The Cooperative Federee of Montreal, at Victoria-ville, are manufacturing butter boxes, but will not deliver any to us. The situation is very serious, and I hope the government will do what it can to provide a remedy.
There is another question I want to bring before the house, the shortage of fuel wood in Granby.


The SPEAKER:: Order. I allowed the hon. member some latitude in regard to butter boxes, because he stated that there was an emergency situation.


Joseph-Hermas Leclerc: So there is in wood.


Thomas Vien: I think that question might be raised at some other time, and placed on the order paper.


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: I know nothing about the butter box situation referred to by my hon. friend, but I shall endeavour to get the information for him to-morrow.



TUG &quot;M. V. ERG&quot; INQUIRY INTO SINKING IN BEDFORD BASIN

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. GORDON B. ISNOR (Halifax): Is the Minister of Transport prepared to make a statement in respect to the findings or report on the inquiry conducted by Captain A. W. Hilton concerning the recent sinking of the M. V. Erg in Bedford Basin, with the loss of nineteen lives?
Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Transport):: Captain Hilton has made a report on his investigation into the sinking, and on reading the report I felt that a public inquiry should be made. This morning orders have been given for such an inquiry immediately.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, July 14, consideration in committee of a resolution to grant to his majesty certain sums of money for the carrying out of measures consequent upon the existence of a state of war-Mr. Ilsley- Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Industrial hygiene, including inspection of industrial plants, $24,000.
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: This item is for only $24,000, and I think it should be at least ten times that amount. I mentioned this in tha house before, and I say again that industnal workers throughout the whole of Canada should have-


Thomas Langton Church: I rise to a point of order. I wanted again to call a matter under the previous item to the attention of the Chair last night, but it was five minutes past eleven. I wish the hon. member would allow me to say something; he interrupted me three or four times last night. On a point of order I draw attention to the fact that five minutes past eleven last night I wished for two or three minutes to refer further to the views of the minister regarding blackouts. I waived my opportunity to speak because of the lateness of the hour. I shall occupy only two minutes this morning. I could rise to a question of privilege. [DOT]


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. I did not hear the hon. member.


Thomas Langton Church: I understood from the minister himself that the last item did not carry.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I gather that what the hon. member contends is that item 7, air raid precautions, did not pass. Is that his point of order? Well, I was not in the chamber at the time; the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare was in the chair; but I believe it would be in order for the hon. member for Broadview to make a short statement.


Thomas Langton Church: Has the minister any
objection?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Go ahead.
Item stands.
Health branch-
Air raid precautions, $6,589,650.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Chairman, if I may be allowed, I would say that I have no objec-

War Appropriation-National Health
tion to blackout precautions or to the A.R.P., and I never had any. My contention is that they should be instituted only if necessary in central Canada. To show my position in the matter, let me say that I was the first person who raised in this house-in September 1939-the question of a home guard and the protection of provincial and municipal property on the same lines as in the last war. I find that the minister has been very fair in this matter. I call attention to the fact that away back in 1938 I raised this very subject during the discussion of the minister's estimates, on March 24. I then said, in part:
More consideration should be given to air defences. There is not only the possibility but a great probability that air raids will occur in the next war in which Canada is involved. The defence of our population from air raids should be considered. These raids will be the chief source of danger in all future wars, and we shall be living in a false paradise if we do not adopt measures to protect ourselves. Abyssinia was recently a theatre of war, and we all know the destruction of civilian population that occurred through this means of attack. Abyssinia is an open country with only a small density of population as compared with what there is on the island of Montreal and in other parts of Canada, and yet great damage resulted.
Air raids can work great havoc in time of war, and the menace will be a very real one in Canada, especially to the people of Quebec, the maritimes and British Columbia. I am glad that some preparation, although it may be only a beginning, has already been made by the minister to meet this danger. I know he has been out looking over the camps. A fleet of aircraft could pass up the Ottawa river without a moment's notice and blow up these buildings, the Chateau Laurier, the railway station and other large buildings. We should have very little warning of the approaching attack.
I was urging the establishment of a home guard.
Consultation and advice are words that are much used by the government nowadays, but we would not be consulted about any air raids that were contemplated against Canada. The enemy's aircraft would be upon us before you could say "O Canada," or sing God Save the King. An aerial bombardment is one of the dangers most to be apprehended in time of war, particularly in large cities with their dense populations; the protection of cities from aerial bombardment should be one of the chief objectives of the national defence department and proper equipment for defence against this menace should be provided. Probably the minister will have something to say about that later on.
Large quantities of poisonous gas could easily be spread over a large area as was done in Abyssinia, and incendiary bombs dropped on our large cities, with great destruction and slaughter, and the enemy aircraft could get back to their base in practically no time. These attacks would not only bring ruin to our cities and towns but break the morale of our people and prevent us from developing a proper defence and mobilizing our man-power and armaments.
In conclusion, I have never made any criticism of A.R.P. I referred last evening and last session nine or ten times to the good work they are doing. I did urge, however, that in central Canada the one hour blackout is too long. The British government has removed most of these restrictions, as Right Hon. Mr. Morrison, Home Secretary, said. In the Toronto district however one hour blackouts are enforced very strictly, and as we know, one of our own ministers was fined here for smoking his pipe. Yet, as has been pointed out by the Toronto papers at the time, a year ago:
Over in London, where they are a lot closer to nazi bombs and airmen than we are, and where they know a lot about blackouts, people are not forbidden to smoke pipes, or even cigarettes, in the streets. Actually, there are lights-green and red light crosses-at all the intersections of London streets, and most people go about with pencil flashlights. More than that, on Britain's country roads people drive about at night with suppressed or limited headlights on their motor cars.
I have not objected on any occasion to my friends the A.R.P. people. The statement I made was clear and I think it was quite fair. As I said, there is no such thing as home defence, as was proved when the mechanized hordes of Germany invaded the low countries. I do object to some of the newspaper reports. I refer to references in two or three papers in the Montreal district, regarding my stand on this and other questions. I ask the minister if I have on any occasion objected to the A.R.P. people. I have been a warm supporter of home defence and the good A.R.P. work and the minister's policy.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): I am very glad to agree with my hon. friend. I have received from him complete cooperation at all times, although he thinks that blackouts have been carried out too extensively over the whole area; apart from that I have had complete cooperation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Was this item passed last night?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, it. was carried last night.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is not so shown in Hansard; I have just looked it up.
May I say that I have always thought that A.R.P. was a good precautionary measure in the early stages of the war, but I do suggest that the thing might very well taper off now, when the danger of invasion has passed. As long as there was danger of



War Appropriation-National Health
invasion our people were quite justified in going as far as they did, and I would not like to see our precautions relaxed on the Pacific coast. I do not speak with any authority, but my partner happens to be the head of the A.R.P. organization in my constituency; I know the interest he takes in the matter, and he now thinks it ought to be washed out, and I hope it will be.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend was not here last night when I made reference to the very happy change in conditions in Canada. He will recall as well as I do that I was severely criticized a year and a half or two years ago, and there was an eloquent appeal from the leader of the opposition that the government form a ministry of home security.


Gordon Graydon: I meant every word of it, too.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not critical of that; I thought it was a constructive suggestion, but I am pointing out the change in conditions in the dominion and the change in the thinking of our people. At the same time, the responsibility is mine and we cannot afford to relax our efforts. I do not think we should expand any more. As I pointed out last night, as regards equipment, this year's estimates provide for practically all that we shall require, and the estimates will go down from now on for A.R.P. work. There is no intention of expanding, but, I repeat, it is my responsibility to support the volunteers, especially on the two coasts, in Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, British Columbia and parts of Ontario, in the splendid voluntary efforts they are making on behalf of the nation. We cannot afford to be extravagant, but on the other hand we cannot afford to be complacent.


Gordon Graydon: I am fairly close in my own part of Canada to A.R.P. work. In parts of my own constituency there is an excellent organization. There has been, from the early part of the war until now, a sort of esprit de corps among the civilians flowing from A.R.P. precautionary measures, and I am inclined to think that whatever else they may have contributed, and I am not by any means limiting their contribution to this, they did provide an outlet for patriotic and serious-minded Canadians to make some physical move such as is manifested in the work they are doing in this field, which was particularly within their scope. Many of these men were of course veterans of the last war. A good many of the leaders in A.R.P. work throughout Canada are returned soldiers. It was a normal and a natural thing therefore for these men,

when this war broke out, to wish to get into work of some kind, into the army if possible but having been denied that on physical grounds they sought some other means of helping their country, as they had done in previous years.
The A.R.P. work has developed to the point where, in my opinion, Canadians may properly take a good deal of pride in the organization. I realize that one of the great troubles with the minister, and the late head of air raid precautions, was the fact that when the reserve army had been brought to the point where public recognition was given it in any major degree, and where the public, by various public relations measures and by appeals, had contributed to the enhanced importance of the reserve army in the estimation of the Canadian people, especially when the men were given uniforms and were thus more closely approximating actual war activities, the A.R.P. organization felt the drain very heavily upon their ranks, when men began to move into the reserve army. That naturally made it more difficult to keep the A.R.P. organization alive. But there was another factor which entered into the picture, as the hon. member for York-Sunbury has pointed out, namely, the growing conviction in the public mind of the danger of air raids to Canada. That was another factor which must have made it still more difficult for the head of the A.R.P. organization to keep it functioning.
We may properly pay tribute to Doctor Manion and his organization in connection with A.R.P. work. I mentioned before, and I refer to it again, the indomitable enthusiasm of Doctor Manion. Whatever may be said about the late lamented Doctor Manion, one fact that does stand out, in addition to the many other qualifications he had, was that when he undertook a job he threw every bit of energy and effort into it, and, what is more important, he devoted to it all the enthusiasm he possessed. I remember when he was first appointed how satisfied the minister was because he had been able to induce Doctor Manion to take on the work. I can remember too the time, two or three sessions ago, when I must confess I shared the view that was held by a good many people, and I am not so sure that it was not also the minister's view. At any rate, he kept his head cool while the debate was going on, but I must admit that I felt at that time that Canada was in a very dangerous position in regard to air raids. There was plenty of evidence from time to time to show that from various parts of the western coast of Europe German bombers could come over with their loads of destruction and return. That caused a great deal of fear in

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the minds and hearts of Canadians generally, and I for one felt-as I say, I am not so sure that the minister did not also feel-that some real move should be made to safeguard our people in the event of some untoward action, so that they might be adequately protected as far as humanly possible. Having in mind the steps that were then taken, and the renewed1 effort that was made in connection with A.R.P. work and its development to the point where Doctor Manion left it, I do not think that we should relax our efforts at this time. When we are nearing the end of hostilities we may be able to form a different judgment, but particularly in my own part of the country, which is the only part I can speak of with any degree of accuracy or of actual knowledge, I do not think it would be regarded as a wise move on the part of the government to relax the efforts that are now being made. I say this not only for security reasons but because A.R.P. work has proved an outlet for the activities of those of our citizens who wish to contribute to the war effort.
May I point out that we are not by any means out of the woods. It is quite true that we have reached the end of the beginning and are now at the beginning of the end, but we may find this period through which we are now passing a grave one for our people, however optimistic we may feel. We may have to go through several periods of great difficulty so far as the war in general is concerned. It may be that we shall have set-backs which to-day we cannot envisage. In the days that lie ahead we may find that this continent must suffer air attack, because before. Germany is beaten to her knees she will take many long chances and many retaliatory measures, one of which may be the bombing of defenceless people on this continent. If that is the case, and I am only throwing that out as a possibility, then I suggest to the government that we should not relax until we have seen the war move closer to a successful conclusion. Until that time I believe we should continue all these precautions which are necessary for the security of the average individual in this country who is doing his best on the home front.


Mr. REID:: It is not my desire to hold up the estimates of the minister, but I should like to add my word of praise of that great band of workers who have done so nobly in connection with A.R.P. work. It is not generally recognized, nor do I think it has been mentioned during this debate, that if a raid should take place the A.R.P. workers will be the first line of defence. Some people seem to thi*k that our home defence army will be 72537-3061
called into action first, but in the event of a raid the A.R.P. will be in the front line of battle, for they will be called into action immediately the raid takes place.
The hon. member for York-Sunbury pointed out that the government might relax its efforts in some districts. If that should be done I suggest to the minister that he should strengthen the organization in other districts, because to my mind the danger on the Pacific coast is not yet gone. I speak as a layman, but sometimes a layman may have a better understanding of the situation than some of our generals. I remember very well that when General Stuart went to the Pacific coast about two years ago and was told about the Japanese on Kiska, he laughed and said, "Oh, that little thing; that does not mean anything." Yet the other evening in his address to the House of Commons the Prime Minister stated that Kiska was a very important strategic point for the Japanese, and to-day no one can tell what may happen in the Pacific area. According to my information the strength of the Japanese remains intact; therefore I would suggest to the minister that if there are districts in which A.R.P. precautions may not be necessary, he take the money from those districts and spend it where we believe this organization should be strengthened. Those who are doing A.R.P. work have never received official recognition. Rifles and uniforms have been given to all other voluntary bodies, but the A.R.P. workers have had to put up a long fight in order to obtain the assistance they are being given to-day.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to expresss my thanks to that body of willing workers who are not officially recognized and who I think deserve such recognition.


Gordon Graydon: You will have plenty
of support in that.


Mr. HANSELL:: I wonder if the minister could enlighten the committee in regard to what A.R.P. work is being done in the smaller communities. The hon. member for New Westminster has mentioned the Pacific coast, where there are some large cities. When we think of bombings we usually associate them with cities such as Vancouver, Halifax and so on, but I believe there are many very important small communities that might become the objectives of the Japanese air force, let us say. I need make no secret about it; I do not suppose it is any secret that in Alberta, for instance, there is a chain of air training schools running from the United States boundary all the way up to Edmonton and perhaps beyond that point. These schools are closer to Kiska island than either Vancouver or Victoria. These air training schools are not
4834	COMMONS
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built out in the wilderness; they have very fine locations, and some are adjacent to small communities. Of course I do not know whether these schools would be regarded as military objectives; I do not know what value they would have as such. I know they do not constitute forts; they do not constitute munitions works, but they are highly specialized schools for the training of airmen, and there are many of them; make no mistake about that. Not very long ago I told one Liberal member here that I had six air training schools in my constituency. He was very much surprised, and wondered what I had done to get so many of these establishments located in my territory. I did not do a thing about it, but I believe the authorities used good judgment in putting them there. That is just my constituency; there are many other schools right along the mountains, where facilities for air training are good. If those air training schools should become the objectives of the Japanese air force, certainly the small communities near by would get it also. So far as I know the only thing that has been done is to train the people of those communities to put out their lights during blackouts. I do not know whether it is a very difficult undertaking to train people to turn out their lights, but in any case I should like to know whether anything more has been done.
While I am on my feet I should like to ask the minister for further information on another matter. This may not come under his department, but I am sure his knowledge extends beyond his own department. Are facilities available for giving plenty of warning in case a raid is made? I have in mind that a fleet of bombers, starting from somewhere off the Pacific coast, could follow a route clean across southeastern Alberta. Those bombers can fly several hundred miles an hour, as we know; they could cover a thousand miles in a very short time. How are these small communities to be warned in time to give adequate protection? I should like the minister to tell us what facilities have been established in that regard. I have no doubt there is some organization looking after that matter, but there is a great danger of focusing our attention upon some large metropolis and forgetting these small but strategic places.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Referring to the first question, there are certain areas in Canada which have been designated by the chief of staffs committee as either subject to definite risk or lesser risk. Of course the two coasts would be subject to definite risk, and practically all the coastal 
areas are under the A.R.P. system. In regard to the other areas, in British Columbia alone there are 139 local centres where they have air raid precaution organizations. In Canada altogether there are 633 areas.
In regard to the second point raised by the hon. member, having to do with training camps, may I say that the air force authorities have organizations of their own which are trained along similar lines to the air raid precautions organization, and they look after situations such as have been described by the hon. member. That area as such, however, does not come within the definition of a designated area, under the jurisdiction of this department, or the air raid precautions system.
As to the further point raised by the hon. member, may I point out that the air raid detection corps in Canada works in absolute liaison with the air raid precautions authorities. I know that in British Columbia, after some experiments, we found we were able to have the whole area blacked out inside of three minutes, through the use of most excellent telephonic communications. I believe, roughly speaking, I have replied to the points raised by the hon. member.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: I should like to make one or two references to this item. Before doing so however may I say that in my opinion the work being done by air raid precautions wardens is of so commendable a nature that it has earned the gratitude and approval of all hon. members. Recently I had the opportunity of seeing what is being done in Ottawa. I visited an exhibition given one Sunday in connection with fire-fighting, and at that [DOT] time I saw some of the work these men are doing. There is no glamour in the work they do. But they give hours of patriotic service, with no incentive other than the desire to contribute something at this time so that they may prepare themselves to protect us, should conditions make necessary the use of their knowledge. Nothing destroys discipline in any organization so much as the work of that organization becoming merely routine. In those circumstances enthusiasm may be lost, and all they have left to impel them to continue their efforts is their own appreciation of what they are doing. I do feel that there should not be any '[DOT]elaxation in the efforts of these men, many of whom were soldiers in the last war, and who in this way find an opportunity of doing something which otherwise would be denied them, namely the opportunity of serving in the only capacity for which they are fitted.
While at the present time we are in a period of what might almost be described

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as apathy in Canada so far as the danger of air raids is concerned, I cannot help recalling that only three months before Pearl Harbor a former member of Japan's intelligence service informed the members of the united nations that there would be a Pearl Harbor. He warned, too, that the Aleutians would be occupied. The hon. member for New Westminster has pointed out the strategic importance of the occupation of those islands. In addition to that he warned it was part of Japan's plan to bomb Pacific coast cities, down into the United States.
As the leader of the opposition has said, when the war approaches a crisis and the axis nations begin to appreciate that the sound of doom is about them, they may commence air raids merely because of their nuisance value. They may distribute gas in this way, and at such time, if it ever comes, the efforts of these men will be appreciated by the people of Canada. If we were to relax in this work or give it up we would invite the very thing the air raid precautions organization was intended to prevent.
May I ask the minister whether or not the various munitions plants in Canada, or any of them, have been warned about the dangers of air raids, and the necessity of making an appeal for volunteer blood donors?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Both things have been done. They have been warned in regard to both points mentioned by the hon. member.


John George Diefenbaker: 
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As to the hon. member's first question, I understand there is a security division in all munitions plants operated under the Department of Munitions and Supply. The main function of such divisions is exactly that mentioned by the hon. member. May I inform the hon. member that we have produced, to date, approximately 100,000 bottles of blood serum, part of which has been distributed to strategic centres in Canada, and all of which is available for any eventuality.


John George Diefenbaker: For overseas.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Part of it has gone overseas. There have been received from the Connaught laboratories 79,174 bottles or cans of dried serum, 1,561 bottles or 223 boxes each containing seven bottles of serum, an equal number of distilled water and four giving sets have been dispatched overseas to date. Supplies are now in hand to dispatch similar boxes at the rate of 1,000 units of dried serum per week. There have been distributed in Canada and Newfoundland at strategic points for the armed services and civilian use when necessary through national catastrophes or enemy action, 39,131 bottles. The exact distribution is not disclosed because of the need of security. Competent authorities in every district and command, including A.R.P. and Red Cross, have knowledge as to their availability. There have been transported overseas 40,043 bottles.


Gordon Graydon: Having in mind what
has been said in the committee this morning and which represents, I believe, the general view throughout the country, as to the necessity of keeping our air raid precautions intact in view of a possible dangerous situation arising a little later, I suggest that it would be advisable for the government not to postpone any longer the appointment of a successor to the late Doctor Manion, who was acting as director of air raid precautions. I aim afraid that if this appointment is delayed for any considerable length of time, those

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who are connected with this work may take it as evidence that the government has in mind the disbanding of the whole organization. That is not the proper attitude to take. If the government is desirous of keeping up the esprit de corps of this organization it should appoint as quickly as possible some outstanding Canadian citizen, as it did in making the previous appointment.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I made a recommendation to council a week ago, but because of other duties I was not able to be in council for the last two days. I may say that council has approved the appointment of General Alexander Ross, of Saskatchewan, formerly president of the Canadian Legion.


Mr. McIVOR:: I rise at this time on behalf of the people in my constituency to pay a tribute to the former director of A.R.P. We were heartsick when we heard of the sudden call of Doctor Manion to his "well done, good and faithful servant." That was his last task, and with all his brilliance he carried it out most efficiently. I do not think any public man from the head of the lakes has received a greater tribute from the public generally and from the press than did Doctor Manion. I was sorry I was not in the chamber before, but I take this opportunity of paying my tribute to him because he was one who was worthy to be trusted, and he was one who merited commendation.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I agree with the
minister that this A.R.P. work should not be disbanded. We should not have any feeling of complacency about it. Things change quickly these days; new methods come along, and we do not know from day to day what is going to happen. As the minister remembers, during the early stages of the war I was most insistent upon something being done in connection with A.R.P. The people of Toronto were upset because of the number of factories in their immediate vicinity and their proximity to Niagara Falls. We cannot say that all danger of bombing has disappeared so far as our city is concerned; it is still within the bounds of possibility that something of the kind may happen.
I should like to pay a tribute to the men and women of Toronto who have given of their time to this work, and also to the members of the police force. The inspectors of the different divisions have given lectures which were most helpful, and generally an esprit de corps has been built up which is a credit to the citizens of that city. These people have attended lectures after doing * 
their day's work to learn about gases, first aid, fire fighting and so on. We should consider this expenditure as an insurance premium and hope that we will never have to make a claim. In order that this esprit de corps may not be lost, in order that these A.R.P. wardens may retain their enthusiasm, something should be done toward directing their efforts in some other direction. They could be used in some other form of useful war effort, especially in those places which are not in such great danger. I do not want it to be thought that the policemen and the firemen of Toronto are tired of this work; they have been most enthusiastic about it, and I think they welcomed an opportunity to participate in A.R.P. work.


Mr. GREEN:: The turn the discussion on this item of $6,589,650 for air raid precautions has taken is disquieting to me. Some hon. members have contended that we should cut down on our expenditures and relax our A.R.P. work. That is a most dangerous outlook, one which I wish to repudiate at once. Many hon. members have adopted an apologetic attitude toward this work; they do not seem to understand why it is still necessary. My home is on the Pacific coast, and in that regard the minister and I are in the same position. When I wake up in the morning frequently one of the first things I think of is whether my home city has been bombed. That is no idle fancy. The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) referred to the statement made by the Prime Minister on July 9, and I quote his words as reported on page 4558 of Hansard:
Kiska remains a potential centre of attack upon our shores, and upon other parts of this continent.
Larger planes are being built, and planes that can fly greater distances, and it has been admitted that it would be comparatively easy for an aeroplane carrier to slip up to within bombing range of the Pacific coast. It might not get away again, but the planes from such a ship could do great damage. I urge upon the minister that he pay no attention to these doubting Thomases. I urge him not only to carry on the air raid precautions work that has been initiated, but to go much farther. For example, I believe it is only within the last few days that the air raid wardens on our coast have received uniforms, and I understand that only a small number of them have been fitted out with these.
Some complaint has been made about blackouts being too long. For goodness' sake let us put up with a little inconvenience in order to make dead sure that we can have an efficient

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blackout when the need arises. The organization of air raid precautions is not yet perfect; it is far from perfect, and I think the minister would be the first to admit it. From the start, it has been difficult to organize because there has been divided authority between the dominion, the provinces and the municipalities. It has been a great stuggle to get this work going at all, and I do urge upon the minister that further efforts be made to improve the general organization.
The government is to be congratulated on appointing General Alex. Ross as director of air raid precautions for Canada. I had what I consider one of the greatest privileges of my life in being able to serve under General Ross in France during the year 1918. He is an outstanding leader of men, probably one of the finest leaders of men that Canada has produced in our generation. That at least is my personal opinion. I believe in General Ross- Turkey Ross, as he was known to the troops-
I believe in him right through the picture. He is no yes-man-the minister knows that, the men of the Canadian Legion know that. He will make demands on the government and he will be pretty tough about those demands. He will want to get proper backing, and I urge upon the minister that he stand behind General Ross in this work. The minister has already had an excellent director in the late Doctor Manion; he could have had no better man. May I urge upon him that he stand behind Doctor Manion's successor, and if he does we may take it for granted that the air raid precautions work in Canada will be carried on in an efficient manner.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I wish to associate myself with the tribute which has been paid by the leader of the Progressive Conservative party to the work done by Doctor Manion and by the wardens and others who have assisted in carrying out the air raid precautions work throughout Canada. Amongst them were members of the St. John Ambulance Brigade, who have been very active in even- part of Canada and have done excellent work.
May I say a few words in support of the statements made by the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) yesterday, when he called attention to some dangers and difficulties in connection with the blackouts. While I would not for a moment wish to disagree with the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) in regard to the necessity for blackouts on the Pacific coast, and also the Atlantic coast and in Quebec province, yet I think that the blackouts in the interior of Canada might very well be shortened in duration; for instance, in the big cities like Toronto,
Kingston, not forgetting Ottawa, and perhaps Montreal. But that is a matter for the department, and having said a word in regard to it I am quite willing to leave it to the judgment of those in authority.
I have asked a few questions about A.R.P. work which have not yet been answered, but I presume I may expect an answer shortly from the minister.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have a memorandum here, but I have not yet analysed it.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Then I will not ask for it at
this time; it can be supplied later.
I am satisfied with the statement made earlier this morning by the minister when he said that this work would be continued in the maritimes, in Quebec and on the Pacific coast just as actively as it had been done heretofore, but less so in the central provinces where less expenditure may be made. It was this question of the reduction in cost to which I wished to call attention in one of the questions which I asked in regard to this work.
I want to commend the minister himself for the work he and his department have done in initiating and carrying through the work of A.R.P.
I would like while on my feet to refer-if it is necessary I will do it on a question of privilege-to what was said by the hon. member for Brantford City last night in my absence from the house. He apparently got the view that I was making a personal attack on the minister. I want to disavow any such intention, and if my words created any such impression I am very sorry. I only wished to bring to the minister's attention as forcefully as I could the reasons why I, in common with a large body of opinion in Toronto and elsewhere, was opposed to his going ahead with additions to Christie Street hospital. Perhaps he had reference to the words I used in regard to a monument in Toronto. If so, I would say to the minister that he can very well change the character of that monument if he will do as we suggest, put up a new building, and I am quite willing then to propose that it be called the Mackenzie Military hospital.
Only one word further in regard to the argument of the hon. member for Brantford City in support of his opinion that noises would not interfere with the use of a stethoscope. I think possibly the word of a consulting physician who complained to me would be taken as of more value than that of the hon. member for Brantford City.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-National Health
Health branch-Industrial hygiene, including inspection of industrial plants, $24,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Chairman, I hope we are on the right item now. This item was read out before and I rose to speak but I was interrupted. I said when I spoke before that I think the amount of 824,000 is entirely too small for this purpose and that it should be at least ten times that much. The reason I say that is that the health of the workers in our plants is not really looked after as it should be. That is why we have so much absenteeism. Many of the young boys and young girls who go into these plants have not had their fathers or mothers teach or show them the proper methods of keeping in good health. Therefore it is up to this government to do it. An article in a Kitchener newspaper of July 14 says that ten cases of active tuberculosis have been discovered in the plants there. A complete survey has been made of over seven thousand workers, among whom ten active cases of tuberculosis were discovered. These ten active cases can be checked if taken in hand now, and these people can be built up into first-class shape. This survey was made by a Doctor Fraser-he is no relation of mine-who is evidently the medical health officer of Kitchener. But in most cities the medical health officer is so busy that he has not a chance to do this work. I spoke of this matter in the house last year and I am bringing it up again because I do feel that the government should maintain a proper supervision over all the workers in these plants. The Department of Agriculture have a check-up on the live stock in Canada, but our human beings are neglected. If these people were checked we would have a better Canada after this war is over; and if we ever intend to have social security we should start in now to improve the health of these people.


Major James William Coldwell: I should like to add a word to what has been said by the hon. member who has just taken his seat. I too feel that the appropriation for this particular phase of the department's work is insufficient and inadequate. After all, the Department of Pensions and National Health is interested in labour conditions as well as in health conditions, because the conditions under which workers work may lead to good health or bad health as the case may be. For example, back in January I was in a plant which makes acids and gases and so on, and I asked the manager of this very large plant, because I was there at noon and saw the men sitting around eating their lunch on any packing case or barrel which happened to be in the furnace

rooms, whether there was any provision for a cafeteria or restaurant where they might take their lunch under conditions which would be eleanly and healthful, and the answer was no.
I am not complaining about our government plants. I must say that a few days ago I was in our small arms ammunition factory near Quebec city, and there I saw a splendid cafeteria, rest rooms and lavatory accommodation and excellent food provided in this government plant, and I was deeply impressed by the care that had been taken to look after the health of the workers there. But in some of the other plants-and I have no hesitation in mentioning names; I was in the Canadian Carbide plant at Shawinigan Falls-there was no such accommodation where men could eat at noon under cleanly conditions. Of course the Department of Labour is interested in the matter, but this is a department of health, I think the appropriation is insufficient for the kind of work which the department needs to undertake, and I miss my guess if the minister, who is giving a tremendous amount of attention to this sort of thing, does not agree with that.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I thank both hon. members for their observations. I might point out at once that we are not limited to this amount-this is a war appropriation-and if the department finds it necessary to increase the amount beyond $24,000 I do not think we would have much difficulty in obtaining the necessary money.
I am informed that we have already inspected about 300 plants for such purposes; and from a nutrition point of view we have inspected 500 industries. That is not under this vote, but the nutrition aspect is also being given attention. Eighteen of these plants had no medical or safety services of any kind, and in over fifty others the first aid services were very inadequate, with no provision for medical care or safety control. All these things have been corrected. We started this work in 1942. I can say that the most rigid attention is paid in all the plants over which the government has control to carrying out the regulations and the provisions of the Geneva code.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: May I say that in Kitchener 8,700 workers were X-rayed for tuberculosis. It is important now to check for tuberculosis, especially at this time when meat and other foods are rationed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is not the X-ray work done by the provincial government?

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Gordon Knapman Fraser: It may be done by the provincial government, but this government should ensure that it is done. People are not getting the nourishment which they were getting before the war, and that is why there is a greater risk of tuberculosis among our young people. With regard to one plant which I know of, and I suppose the same conditions obtain all over the country, they have nurses to look after their workers; in the rooms where the nurses are they will have large jars of aspirin tablets, and if a girl comes in and says she has a headache the nurse will say, " Help yourself." Many of these young girls will take one, three, four, five or ten aspirin tablets, not knowing what is wrong with them. If there were a doctor or someone qualified to check the condition of that girl she could be fixed up right away. I know of two girls who were seriously unwell because, not having been examined, they took aspirins until they got in such a weakened condition that it required months for their recovery.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am glad to get that information.


Mr. NOSEWORTHY:: There are a number of things in connection with the minister's department on which I can very frankly and sincerely congratulate him. One of them is the health services which he has initiated in these factories. I am thinking particularly of the plant at Malton and the improvement which has been made in the facilities for safeguarding the health of the workers since it came under direct government ownership and supervision. The set-up there is the finest I have seen in any plant which I have visited.
I have noticed that there is a considerable degree of difference in the facilities available as between one plant and another, and I would just like to remind the minister, although I do not think it necessary, that the collection of large numbers of men in war industries is giving his department an opportunity for improving or for taking the first steps in the improvement of the health of the nation-an opportunity which probably will not be available in peace time. We now have plants which are directly under government supervision and working on government orders. Large numbers of men are congregated in these centres. I urge upon the minister that he take advantage of that opportunity to give the nation a start on the road to better health. I need not emphasize the fact that the war has shown that we have been very neglectful of that in the past.
There are one or two other topics upon which I should like to occupy a minute, Mr. Chairman, if you will be gracious enough to permit me. I wish to second1 the suggestion made by the hon. member for Parkdale. I was astonished that a Progressive Conservative representing a Toronto riding would suggest that Toronto would be willing to call a military hospital the Ian Mackenzie military hospital.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Only on certain conditions.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I presume it is because they have a personal attachment to the minister, rather than to the government which he represents.


Howard Charles Green: It is because they want the hospital.


Joseph William Noseworthy: It almost persuades me that the Conservatives are becoming progressive.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: They have been, right along.


Joseph William Noseworthy: However, I hope the minister will take it into consideration. I did not have an opportunity to speak when the subject was under review, but everyone who knows anything about the situation in Toronto 

those in charge of the war veterans' associations, the doctors, and various welfare organizations-has made representations. The minister is familiar with these representations, and I am sure we need' not take time to try to impress him with the need of remedying that situation. I think the remedy suggested, the necessity of finding a new site as soon as possible to begin the erection of a new hospital, is the solution. I thank you Mr. Chairman, for permitting me to make this remark on this item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Health branch-Laboratory analyses and ser-vxces for the Department of National Defence, $37,000.
Gordon Knapman Fraser: There are a few questions which I wish to ask with reference to this item. I have already pointed out that, in my opinion and in the opinion of many other people as well, the Canadian people are not getting the nutrition they were before the war, and the reason for this is rationing. Reports from Montreal indicate a rising death rate from tuberculosis. I was wondering what the government would do withvregard to vitamin B in Canada-approved 'flour. This is a matter

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which concerns the department, and I submit that something should be done. I have here a series of questions which I should like to submit to the minister:
1.	In view of the unsatisfactory results attained by the government's programme to introduce a vitamin B white flour made exclusively by the so-called "long extraction" milling process, as evidenced by the testimony submitted at the conference held in Ottawa, January 5 and 6 last, does the government now purpose to modify the restrictions against synthetic enrichment of flour with such vitamins as are deemed deficient, by your nutritional advisers, in the national dietary; particularly under war conditions?
2.	Since approximately fifty per cent of the flour used in Canada is baked by the housewife and the larger proportion of it in the form of bread, and since she has become accustomed to using the so-called "top patent" or "family" grade as being most satisfactory for the purpose, and since this grade carries the lowest natural vitamin content of any of the hard wheat flours milled, namely 50 to 100 I.U's per pound, how is it proposed to increase the vitamin intake of the Canadian people unless this grade of flour is improved by synthetic addition?
3.	In Ontario and generally in eastern
Canada most cakes, biscuits, pastries are made from soft winter wheat flour, both commercially and home baked.	Ontario
winter wheat is much lower in vitamin value than hard spring (bread) wheat flour. How can the vitamin intake from this source be increased except by the use of synthetics?
4.	Since it has been established by the testimony at the January session above referred to that spring wheat flours of the 1942 crop will average 100 units or more per pound lower than the previous crop in natural vitamin B-l content, and since even from the 1941 crop wheat many mills had great difficulty in attempting to meet the 400 international units per pound requirement in the flour, and also since, to a great many bakers, this flour was entirely unsatisfactory in its baking qualities, how can it be hoped to produce a satisfactory flour with the -50 to -55 ash from the new (1942) crop wheat, at even the modest level of 400 I.U's per pound, unless synthetic enrichment is resorted to?
5.	In view of the established success of synthetic enrichment-of-fiour programme in the United States and the requirement of the cereal import committee in Great Britain that all Canadian flour shipped to that country shall be synthetically enriched with

vitamin B-l, why have we in Canada held back from adopting this scientifically improved means of increasing the vitamin intake in the national dietary with respect to breadstuffs?
Some people say that vitamins have a tendency to produce certain weaknesses, but that has never been proved. In the foregoing questions the word "synthetic" is not quite appropriate because the vitamins that are added to the flour are natural vitamins. If you added the so-called synthetic vitamin B to flour and baked a loaf of bread with it, and used the wheat berry to increase the vitamin B content in another batch of flour, baking a loaf of bread from that flour, I do not believe there is a man in the country who could tell the difference. I do not think there is anyone who could say which was the synthetic product and which was the bread made from the natural wheat berry, because if both samples were subjected to the fluorescent lights which are used for testing they would fluoresce in the same way. I should like the minister to tell us what is being done, because the people should have these extra vitamins and they will not buy bread unless it is white, though when it is made in the ordinary way the vitamins are killed.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend has raised a highly technical question which I doubt that I am competent to discuss in technical terms. A year and a half or two years ago we had a committee of the greatest nutritional experts in Canada, including the dominion cerealist and experts from our own department, and they agreed, after consultation and various experiments, scientific and otherwise, upon this standard of Canada-approved flour. It has been very well received though there was some resistance from some of the millers. I know, from information given me by experts from other countries, that it is the opinion of the highest nutritional experts in Great Britain that our Canada-approved flour, which comes from the natural wheat, has a finer nutritive value than any synthetically induced proportions of vitamin that go into any other flour. Britain herself to-day is not using synthetic flour to the extent that she was; she is exporting quite a bit to other countries. It is the opinion of experts in the United States and Britain that our high extraction flour is superior for the health of the nation, and I should not be surprised to see them reverting to our standard of flour before this argument is over. There is some resistance from certain millers at the present time, but I must rely upon the best scientific and technical advice I receive, not only from the officers of my own department but from those of

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other departments and from many eminent experts outside. The standard represents a great advance forward from what we had before, and there are certain definite constituents, such as iron, phosphorus and calcium, which are all of great benefit to the health of the individual and consequently to the health of the nation as a whole. I personally know little about the subject but the best advice I have received is as I have indicated.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: But you get those same constituents, iron, calcium and phosphorus, in the synthetic product, which is bakers' yeast.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My information is to the contrary. Of course, I am only speaking from information I have received. The note I have on the point is that no evidence has been produced to show that these constituents, in the same percentage, are present in the yeast which was under consideration at that time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
Processing, storage and distribution of blood for transfusions, $120,000.
Mr. FULFORD:: I presume this has to do with the processing and distribution of blood obtained through the blood donor clinics operated by the Red Cross. I should like to tell this committee of one of the finest examples of civilian cooperation in an international way that has come to my knowledge. Recently the good people of the city of Ogdensburg, New York, decided to open a blood donors' clinic and give their blood to the American Red Cross. It was found, however, that owing to the geographical location of that city, it was not practicable to send that blood to an American processing laboratory. The Ogdensburg chapter of the American Red Cross thereupon applied to the parent organization to see if it would be possible to send that blood to the Canadian Red Cross This permission was granted, and they applied to the Brockville branch of the Canadian Red Cross for assistance in setting up their clinic. Naturally that assistance was gladly given. The necessary formalities in regard to customs and immigration on both sides of the line have been settled, and the people of Ogdensburg are now in process of signing up nine hundred donors. They hope to have their clinic in
operation on or about August 1, at which time the blood will be collected by members of the Brockville branch, brought across the river and sent to Toronto for processing.
I think it is generally recognized that blood plasma is vitally needed at this time; and to me it is an inspiration to think that our American friends, when they found it impossible to give blood to their own organization, of their own free will should ask if they might present their blood to the Canadian Red Cross. As I say, I know of no finer example of international civilian cooperation, and I believe that we as Canadians could learn a lesson here. Even some hon. members of this house could learn a lesson from this incident. We have not enough blood donors in this country; I think anyone connected with the Department of Pensions and National Health will support that statement. We need more blood donors. I have already suggested that hon. members should go to the Ottawa branch of the Red Cross and donate their blood, and again I would urge them to do so. Surely if our American friends are willing to donate their blood to the cause of Canada and the cause of the united nations, we Canadians should intensify our efforts and have more people give their blood for the same cause.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I want to thank my hon. friend for his reference to what is really a magnificent gesture, for which we are profoundly grateful.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Nurses' Association to increase the supply of qualified nurses in Canada, $250,000.
Joseph William Noseworthy: Will the minister give us a brief statement of what has been done in this connection?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Last year the grant was $115,000; this year it is being increased to $250,000. Last year the grant was made for the following purposes: $15,000 for administration expenses and to provide staff and travelling expenses, to stimulate the recruitment of student nurses and the expenses of publicity in connection therewith. Last year $75,000 was allocated to hospitals or other teaching institutions to provide additional facilities for the tuition of teachers, supervisors and administrators in schools of nursing, and for the training of the increased registration of student nurses. Then $25,000 was devoted to scholarships for graduate nurses for education as teachers, supervisors and administrators. As a result of the recruiting campaign the number of students in schools
4842	COMMONS
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of nursing was increased by 1,402. Some forty-five scholarships, ranging in value from $265 to $500, were awarded to approved candidates, eighteen for post-graduate work in nursing and twenty-one in public health.
The grant of $75,000 for teaching institutions was allocated through the provinces, to be used for the following purposes: refresher courses for graduate nurses, summer courses in public health nursing, teaching, supervision of hospitals and hospital administration; special clinical post-graduate courses for three months; field work for universities and schools of nursing; to assist smaller schools in providing additional staff, teaching equipment and text books to take care of the increased registration; to provide for smaller schools travelling specialized instructors in psychiatry, dietetics, pediatrics and communicable diseases.
The need for more graduate nurses and specialists has increased so that it is considered desirable to increase the assistance to the Canadian Nurses' Association as follows:
(a)	1 $25,000 for administration, to increase campaign for recruitment of student nurses, and for increased publicity.
(b)	$155,000 for direct assistance to schools of nursing to provide for increased registration. The present grant did not permit assistance to many schools where such aid would have provided for larger registration. It is planned to increase the number of students in many more training schools as soon as money can be provided for increased training facilities.
(c)	$40,000 for scholarships. The need for specialists is increasing. The grant last year permitted forty-five scholarships, but this took care of only half the eligible and desirable applicants.
(d)	' $30,000 for direct assistance to schools of nursing in universities and in public health organizations in order to extend their facilities for giving post-graduate specialist training. Present facilities are taxed to capacity and direct aid will provide for increased output of trained specialists. The method of distribution of the direct assistance to teaching institutions and universities is subject to the approval of the department.


Mr. HOWDEN:: Has the minister any knowledge of the means that were employed by the nursing organization to encourage young ladies to enroll as pupil nurses? This seems like a good deal of money, and I was wondering if a canvass was made of the schools or anything like that, in order to encourage young ladies to become nurses.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, that was done by a field secretary employed by the nurses' association.


Major James William Coldwell: I believe this is another very important appropriation. I have had the opportunity in the last three years to know something of this training, and it seems to me if we are to make the nursing profession more attractive to the right type of girl, facilities will have to be provided so that more of them may be engaged in the work in unit hospitals, in order that they may not be overtaxed and their health may be protected. Not only here, but as a member of the hospital board in Regina, I have known that a large number of girls have broken their health during training. And when one considers that girls in training are not only doing hospital duties, but are also studying and preparing for examinations, it will be realized that their duties are those which only a girl in fairly robust health could possibly stand.
I am not complaining about the hospitals. But, as I say, I have had personal contact with one in the city in which I lived, and I have known something about the local situation. I do believe an attempt should be made by the government to encourage more young girls to come in so that they may relieve, at least to some extent, those who are already in training. This may mean that grants will have to be made for increased accommodation for student nurses attached to hospitals with approved training schools. Because, after all, in many such hospitals the number of student nurses who can be enrolled will be governed by the amount of accommodation the hospital has for student nurses in residence and in class rooms. I suggest this is something to which attention should be given by the government when it is making grants. The institutions themselves should be assisted to provide accommodation so that there will not be quite such long hours for some of the girls in the hospitals, and that more care-if I may put it in that way, although I know supervisors give all the attention they can-shall be given to the health of the girls in training. In a number of instances a very high percentage of student nurses have failed to complete the course, not only because some of them were unfit, but because of a breakdown in health, often the result of very strenuous work and the long hours.
I know that in most hospitals an attempt is made to limit the working day to eight hours. I also know, very well indeed, that it is almost impossible in some of these institutions to live up to that eight-hour regulation. The girls have to work nine and even ten hours sometimes. In addition they must study, which means that they cannot withstand the strain. In my opinion some con-

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sideration should be given to the provision of accommodation in training schools attached to our hospitals, sufficient to ensure that there will be an ample supply of student nurses in the future, and that none of the girls in training shall be overworked. I believe we should pay some attention to that aspect of the matter.
Mr, MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre): We agree.


Mr. SHAW:: In his break-down the minister referred to scholarships for graduate nurses, so that they may take special training. Has any provision been made to assist student nurses who, because of the lack of a few dollars, might not be able to enroll for training purposes?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I believe a definite statement was made on that subject by Miss Ellis before the social security committee, of which the hon. member is a member. My recollection is that there was no direct grant to student nurses. I am instructed they are expecting some assistance from one of the training schemes, but it had not been forthcoming before she gave her evidence.


Joseph William Noseworthy: I was pleased to
hear the last report of the minister. My information is that the chief drawback to the securing of more nurses is, first, the fact that a great many girls cannot afford to take the three years, and, in addition to receiving no compensation for their work in the hospitals, be called upon to provide books and uniforms. Anything that could be done to relieve that situation would be helpful. I understand there are some hospitals in which a small remuneration is paid, but that condition is not general. That is the first big drawback. The second drawback is the number of hours these girls are asked to work. If the minister can do anything to relieve those two situations, he will go a long way toward achieving the end he has in view.
May I commend the minister on the amount of money he has set aside for this purpose. I certainly agree it is something that is very much needed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are not
all arrangements with regard to pay and the terms of apprenticeship standardized? Are not the hours of labour in standard hospitals all the same? They were at one time.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am under the impression they are not. I think the objective has always been that they should be standardized at the level mentioned
by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar. But I believe conditions do differ across Canada, even in our best hospitals.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have
served on a hospital board for a number of years, and I thought it had always been recognized by the hospitals association that these things were standardized. However, I am glad to be informed on the point. If they are not, they ought to be.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not speaking definitely, but I am under the impression that my statement is correct.


John Power Howden: I think I can say definitely that all major hospitals have adopted the eight-hour day. For many years it was a twelve-hour day, but even at that I am happy to say that with the regular hours of sleep, the regular meals and the like, ninety-five per cent of the nurses put on flesh and gained in health during their course of training in the various hospitals. In those days there was a small monthly payment of $5, but I do not know whether or not that is paid to-day. But I believe I can allay the fears of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, because I have been connected in the west with a nursing school for a great many years, and I know that the vast majority of nurses who went into training gained in health in the first five or six months. And that was the condition in* the early days, when they spent twelve hours a day, and sometimes more, at their work.


Mr. SOPER:: While I realize that what
I am going to say is to some extent a provincial matter, yet I notice that the federal government is making a fairly substantial contribution to nursing, and there is one point I should bring to the minister's attention. One of the greatest causes of the shortage of nurses is that training privileges have been taken away from the small hospitals. Girls in the smaller towns cannot now train in most of the small hospitals, but are compelled to go to the larger cities. In many instances this is not looked upon with favour by their parents. I think the experience has been that many of our better nurses have been trained in some of the smaller hospitals throughout the country. I believe if the training privilege were restored to smaller hospitals we would not now have this shortage of nurses.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is that not entirely a matter of provincial registration?

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Bert H. Soper: Yes, I think it is.


Mr. COLD WELL:: I cannot quite agree with what was said by the hon. member for St. Boniface. My personal observation has been that while care is taken of the young nurses in training, yet owing to the pressure upon them, break-downs have developed.


John Power Howden: Veiy few.


Thomas Miller Bell: I hesitate to mention anything that I might have observed during my own daughter's training which she has just completed, but in the class in which she trained there were, I believe, 54 pupils, and at the end there were some 38 left, the remainder being on the casualty list to some extent on account of break-down in health.


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: Probably some got married.


Major James William Coldwell: None of them got
married, so far as I know, while they were in training. This does not seem to be much improvement over what I know was the case some years ago when I myself was on a hospital board. While I am not blaming the hospitals, because I know the pressure is tremendous, I do say that if we wish to get student nurses in our hospitals we shall have to see to it that the hours are not prolonged.


John Power Howden: I am not advocating
prolonged hours.


Major James William Coldwell: I understand that quite well; the hon. member advocated shortened hours. It frequently happens that the hours are unavoidably extended beyond eight because hospitals are under pressure and understaffed.


John Power Howden: They overlap.


Major James William Coldwell: Some overlapping does occur. I do not want it to be thought that I feel that this matter does not need remedying, because, in my opinion it does.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: A wrong impression might be created in the minds of those who have occasion to review this particular debate. We must not get it into our heads that an eight hour day in an institution means eight hours of work for the nurses. That is to say, you could not possibly operate under three eight hour shifts and find work for the nurses to do. There must be quiet periods in a hospital, otherwise your patients will not get along as well as they should. This idea of talking about a twelve hour day or an eight hour day is all

wrong. I do not know of any institution that might be said to work on a twelve hour basis, where the nurses work a twelve hour day. They have their rest periods, particularly at night. The institution must be quiet. It is not a factory you are running; it is an institution for the healing of those [DOT]who come to your door. There is a great deal of confusion in the minds of people who feel they should run three eight hour shifts. You will be running a factory, not a hospital. I do not know of any place where they actually work, where they are on their feet for twelve hours. There is a rest period in the afternoon and a long rest period at night when the other work is off.


John Power Howden: The busiest time for
hospital nurses is between ten o'clock at night and eight o'clock in the morning.


Ernest George Hansell: Is this appropriation of a quarter of a million dollars for the training of nurses for the armed forces, or is it for the training of nurses for all the services? I realize that this is a war appropriation. To a large extent nurses, when they are available, are having to take the place of doctors because of the present shortage of doctors. I do not mean that they are doing all the work the doctors would do, because we know they do not. In Alberta they have certain health units which are made up of a number of communities. A doctor is the health officer for the entire territory. A number of doctors have joined the forces, others have moved away, and the result is that some of these health units are without doctors. The nurses have taken their places, not to do all that a doctor would do, but to substitute as much as possible. I hope that part of this money is to go for the training of nurses who will eventually find their way into civilian service. How is this money distributed? Is any of it given to the provincial governments to handle in connection with the training of nurses?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The moneys are distributed by nurses' associations and hospital associations with the approval of the director of public health services, Department of Pensions and National Health. This appropriation is for the training of nurses for all purposes, both military and civilian, so they would be available for the health units to which my hon. friend has referred. This necessity has been occasioned by the depletion in the ranks of the nurses caused by the war.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I should like to say a word in support of this grant. There is no body of professional people in the country more

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worthy of support than are our nurses. They are doing a magnificent job. The period during which they can work is limited and any assistance we can give toward the carrying out of their duties should be given. I do not know to what hospital the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) was referring, but might it not be possible that the examination made of the nurses before they went into training was not sufficiently thorough to determine whether they were in category A? In most hospitals an X-ray examination of the chest is made, and as a consequence this has practically eliminated the incidence of tuberculosis among nurses which used to be quite prevalent years ago. There is no standard of medical examination adopted by all hospitals; it depends upon the examiner in each hospital as to how rigidly the requirements of physical fitness are enforced before a student is admitted for training as a nurse. I thought possibly this might explain the casualty list amongst the student nurses to which my hon. friend referred.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They did find a rather high incidence of tuberculosis among nurses in training, and that is why X-ray examinations are now made.


Major James William Coldwell: I am not complaining about the hospital to which I referred, because I believe it is probably one of the best in the country and is giving the best of training. My own daughter has completed her course without a break, but I happen to know that others have not been able to do so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Expenses in connection with the administration of the defence of Canada regulations, $35,000.
Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The item will be found on page 923 of Hansard of Maroh 3, 1943. Shall the item carry?


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, we are anxious to facilitate matters, but we should not try to go too fast. At least we want to see the item. When other departments have been up we have been furnished with a memorandum giving a brealc-down of the item, and I do not know whether the minister has provided that in this case.
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): There are only three items. One is for $35,000 in connection with the defence of Canada regulations; the other is $10,000 in connection with prize courts, and the next is $5,700 covering sundry services. These are the salaries and cost of living bonus of three
temporary employees who have been added to the sendee of the department. I did not think it necessary to have a memorandum prepared covering these small items, but I have one prepared for the larger item.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: Mr. Chairman, I have for a very long while wished to have the opportunity to discuss democracy in this country. Now the opportunity has come, and I welcome it; for after the winning of the war there is no subject more important than the maintenance of democracy. On July 9 the Prime Minister, speaking in the house, said this:
Our conception of nationhood rejects, as it must always reject, any attachments to ideas which are non-democratic or to usages which would constitute the negation of free institutions or the untrammelled expression of the free souls of free men.
Those are very wonderful words. Mr. Chairman. I should like to see these things a living reality in this country. I must admit that resentment has been burning inside me for many months now because of the lack of an opportunity to discuss this very question, and I intend to use all the force of which I am capable to speak against the sort of administration we have had under these defence of Canada regulations.
I do not think I need emphasize the fact to any hon. member of this house that I was brought up in a country which is known as the mother of parliaments and the home of democracy. My freedom of speech and the right to associate as I please was something which was to me just like the air I breathe. It was my inalienable right. I am not unmindful either of all the things that were endured by my ancestors in days gone by and the price they had to pay for the freedom which they finally attained. I am not unaware of many who met their deaths in days gone by from the force and violence of those who sought to rob the common people of their freedom, and I should be untrue to those who have gone before and untrue to myself if at this time I failed to protest against a new form of despotism which is growing up within the boundaries of this country to dominate us and which like a cancerous growth impairs democracy. These may seem strong expressions to hon. members, but I can find no words too strong to express my feelings in this regard.
We do not miss the air we breathe until we gasp and choke for lack of it, and some people do not appreciate the rights and privileges they have until they have them snatched from them by force and violence. To see other little groups of people lose their privileges and rights does not affect us at all.
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It is only when we ourselves lie broken in spirit under the fetters of despotism that we realize its full calamity, and then, my friends, it is too late. While I have breath to protest against some things which have gone on in this country in the administration of the defence of Canada regulations I shall do it.
I should like to give one instance in which within the last few months the rights of one section of our people have been denied them, even though the Minister of Justice wields extraordinary power under these regulations. The question this time is that of freedom of speech. It is in connection with a meeting which should have been held in the city of Montreal on May 3 of this year. A large mass meeting had been arranged for in that city. Various trades union leaders were to speak and the leader of the communist party of Canada, who had spoken previously in every other large city across Canada, was also to be there. Although the hall had been engaged-I believe it was the Atwater market-at the last minute the meeting was cancelled. Nobody seemed to know why. The citizens who were interested in this meeting gathered themselves together for another meeting to protest. Peculiarly enough the second meeting was not allowed. Then this same group of citizens, swelling in numbers as the people gradually became aware of what had happened in their city, gathered together, and, roughly calling themselves "The Defenders of the Four Freedoms," arranged for a well known journalist in Montreal to prepare a broadcast on the question of freedom of speech for the people of that city. The journalist in question prepared a broadcast. It was accepted by the censor, and yet at the last moment he was not allowed to make that speech over the air. Finally, after some time, this group of people did get a conference together. I went down myself that evening. At that conference there were represented roughly 131 organizations in the city of Montreal, which would mean representing over 130,000 of Montreal's citizens. They met to protest the right of freedom of speech being denied to them as it had been accorded to the citizens of every other great city in this country. At the end of that conference they sent a letter to the Minister of Justice. They asked that they might have freedom of speech in their city the same as the people of any other city, well aware that no nation can live with its people half slave and half free. I have here a copy of the minister's reply to that group of people representing over 130,000 citizens. He says:
I have duly received your letter of June 4, with attached thereto copy of a resolution appealing to the Prime Minister of Canada to

instruct his Department of Justice that freedom of speech, press and assembly, such as is permitted to the rest of Canada, should also be accorded to the citizens of Quebec, and praying him, moreover, to employ the utmost latitude in assuring for all citizens of this dominion opportunity to exercise this fundamental right of a free people.
A similar letter has also been referred to me from the Prime Minister's office.
Then listen to this last paragraph:
I wish to inform you that the Department of Justice has nothing to do with the according of freedom of speech, press and assembly to the citizens of Quebec, any more than it has to do with such privilege in other provinces of Canada, and has not acted in any manner to which the criticism implied in this resolution would seem to be applicable.
In other words, although our Minister of Justice wields tremendous power, he claims that he has nothing to do with the privilege and right of freedom of speech in this country. I fail to understand why our Minister of Justice has not acted. Perhaps it would help the members of this house to understand one reason why the minister did not act when I say that finally it was known that a little group in Montreal were responsible for the stopping of this great public meeting. One of them particularly, a Mr. Raymond, a member of the other place, closely connected with the hon. member for Beauharnois-Laprairie, and other groups in the province of Quebec has been most vocal against Canada's greatest and all-out participation in this war. They were the groups who were responsible for the stopping of these meetings in the city of Montreal. This is an astounding fact.
I would say that the minister's action, or rather his lack of action, to protect the democratic right of freedom of speech in that one city of Montreal, amounts to nothing more or less than appeasement of anti-war groups in the province of Quebec. After all, if there is one thing in this world worse than no justice, it is that there should be justice without a sword in her hand. We have witnessed the lights of Europe go out one by one. We have witnessed people lose their freedom little by little. We have seen the calamity which overtook those who viewed too carelessly this question of their democratic rights. It should be a lesson to us. We should resist these things in time. Whether or not we have any particular liking for the views of those who wish to speak is not the question. It matters not whether it be trades union leaders or the leader of the communist party who may be expressing views which may not be palatable to some. The fact remains that freedom of speech is the right of the people of this country at all times, pro-

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vided that speech is towards a democratic end. It so happens that the speeches that were to be made were on behalf of the victory-loan. "Back the attack" was to have been the spirit of the meeting. Yet we find groups who have been most vocal against an all-out war effort by Canada being the ones to prevent this meeting in the city of Montreal.
I charge that under these defence of Canada regulations the Minister of Justice has not protected the rights of all the citizens of this country. Yet the purpose of his administration of these regulations is supposed to be that we should be protected from those who seek to destroy democracy within the boundaries of this country. It is pretty clear today all the world over that whoever denies the rights of the people is against the people, and whoever is against the people is their enemy. Let us not make any mistake about it.
So much then for the protection which should have been afforded to the people of Canada under the defence of Canada regulations. We accepted as a nation these regulations as a war emergency, designed only to protect us from the machinations of the enemy within our own country. But the minister has failed to use the authority which we have placed in his hands, to protect the citizens of Montreal. I will go further and say that while he has failed to protect us under these regulations, he has in some other ways used them to bar the progress of democracy in this country.
I would quote from the Toronto Telegram of June 24, which contains a dispatch that on June 23 Canada's Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) in an address prepared for delivery to the Midwest Farm Bureau conference, said:	[DOT]
Reviewing war developments, Mr. Gardiner said that it might be said that Hitler declared war on the world when he started his brown-shirts marching on German roads. If this interpretation were correct the only country which realized the situation was Russia which turned out to be the only nation ready for the attack. . . .
"In my opinion it was the move of Stalin into Poland in 1939 and not the move of Hitler into Russia in 1,941 which saved Britain," said Mr. Gardiner.
"When the British returned from Dunkirk in 1940, if all the troops in Britain had been given all the arms and ammunition left and commanded to start firing, they could have continued to shoot for one hour."
The preparations made by Stalin compelled Hitler to risk all in an attack upon Russia in the hope he would crush that country before the democracies could arm. . . .
It is quite alright now, in the year 1943, for the Minister of Agriculture or any other hon. member or private citizen of this country to make statements like that; but my contention
is that the people who stated this same fact at the time it happened, in 1939, in other words the communists of this country, were under the defence of Canada regulations rounded up. We all agree now that it was the vast preparations made for war by the Soviet Union which saved Britain and forced Hitler into an attack on the Soviet Union. But as I said before, the people who realized this fact in 1939, and did not wait until 1943 to say it, were arrested under the defence of Canada regulations; they were herded into concentration camps, often with force and violence; they were hounded like common criminals, some of them snatched out of their beds in the middle of the night, and their wives and families had no knowledge where they were to be taken or what was to be done to them.
Some of the Ukrainian people of this country had1 their organization, the Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple association, banned under the defence of Canada regulations, because it was said that certain of them, some leaders among them, were communists. Some of their halls, as you know, were sold. It is a ghastly thing that in some instances their halls were sold to a rival Ukrainian organization whose leaders, though I do not say all the people belonging to it, to say the least had had questionable alliances with pro-fascist terrorist groups in Europe. It is perhaps not very well known that this Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple association had some of its property not, only taken by the custodian of enemy alien property, but actually destroyed by him, instead of being kept. I thought the word "custodian" meant a man who takes things in custody and keeps them until the time arrives to hand them back, but that does not appear to be so. This custodian destroyed property belonging to Ukrainian people in this country whose only fault was that some of the leaders of their organization were supposed to be communists.
I should like to read something which I believe will be of interest to every hon. member, who, before he is Liberal, Conservative or of any other political faith, is a Canadian. I have with me two documents produced by witnesses, sworn statements before notaries, of what happened to some of the property belonging to this organization. It will take only a short time to read them, and I think they should be read:
I,	Steve Solonynka, of the city of Toronto, m the county of York, in the province of Ontario, make oath and say as follows:
1.	I reside at 259 Crawford street, in the city of Toronto, in the county of York.
2.	I have full and personal knowledge of the matters hereinafter by me sworn to except when same are stated to be based upon information and belief.
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3.	I was formerly employed by the Pullan Paper Stock Ltd. at Trinity and Parliament streets, in the said city of Toronto, and was employed by the said firm for about five years until about six months ago.
4.	I remember distinctly in the early part of 1941 a load of books, containing about five tons, was brought to the yards of the said company, and the said books were torn and destroyed by the workmen of the said company. These books bore the stamp of the Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple Association.
5.	Many of these books were in the Ukrainian language but many others were in the Russian and English languages.
6.	I remember definitely seeing the following books printed in the English language: works of Victor Hugo, Anatole France, Robert Burns, William Shakespeare, Jack London, Upton Sinclair, Karl Marx, W. Lenin and the History of Canada.
7.	I also remember seeing books printed in the Russian language by Leo Tolstoy, Turgeniew, Maxim Gorki, Pushkin, and books in the Ukrainian language by the following authors: Taras Shewehenko, Ivan Franko, Olga Kobylian-ska, Kulish, Wasil Stefanyk.
8.	While these books were being destroyed by the workmen of the said company, the destruction of same was being supervised by plainsclothes police officers of either the dominion or provincial government.
We have heard about the wholesale destruction of books in Germany. I grew up in a country where no one dictated to me what I should read, and as long as I have breath in my body I will defend the right of the Canadian people to read what they please.
Here is another sworn statement:
I, Mike Andrichuk, of 2272 Wellesly Boulevard, in the city of Windsor, in the province of Ontario, Ford worker, make oath and say as follows,

1.	I am by nationality a Ukrainian and was employed from the middle of the year 1938 to on or about April 1. 1941, as a janitor of the Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple Association Hall at street number 10628 96th street, in the city of Edmonton, in the province of Alberta.
2.	In the said hall at the time of my said employment was a library belonging to the said Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple Association consisting of approximately 1,000 library books some of which were used in a schoolroom and some of which were used for general library purposes amongst the membership of the said association. Amongst the said books were works of Gorki, Marx, Tolstoy and other great Russian writers as well as works in English by Shakespeare, Burns and Winston Churchill. There were also works by Shevchenko, the Ukrainian national poet, and by Jack London.
3.	In or about the month of April, 1941, the said hall was sold by the custodian of enemy property to the Ukrainian National Federation, a pro-fascist organization. By instructions given to me by a Mr. Wenspir and a Mr. Hamilton, representatives of the said custodian, I was
*ordered to burn, and did burn, approximately 500 of the said books in the furnace in the basement of the said hall.


Mr. MacNICOL:: None of the volumes
of Burns, surely?
fMrs. Nielsen.l


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: Yes, volumes of Burns were burned.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Sacrilege!


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: Sacrilege! I should say so.
The said burning took place about one month prior to the sale of the said building and I was further ordered by the said Wenspir and Hamilton to assist in loading the balance of the said books into a truck and the said books were taken by the said truck to the said garbage disposal plant of the city of Edmonton and there destroyed. At the time of the destruction of the said books the same were in good, usable condition. The said Wenspir and Hamilton or an auctioneer were present with me in the basement of the said hall when I began to burn the said 500 of the said books in the basement furnace according to their instructions.
I was being paid by the custodian of enemy property a salary or wage of $35 monthly together with the use of three rooms from the beginning of July, 1940, to April 1, 1941.
The said Wenspir and Hamilton told me that the said books were being destroyed because the custodian did not want the people to be reading them any longer.
Have you ever heard anything like that in a country that calls itself democratic?
The said library was in process of being gathered together over a period of fifteen (15) years and there were from 500 to 700 Ukrainian anti-fascists making use of the said library month by month.
I verily believe that it was a very great cultural hardship to the Ukrainian community in the city of Edmonton to be deprived of the said books, the majority of which were in the Russian and Ukrainian language, which language many of the said community could read much more easily in the said Ukrainian or Russian language.
In addition to the destruction of the said books the said representatives of the custodian's department also conducted an auction sale of some of the furniture and equipment of the said hall, the same being sold to the general public.
I should like to know what evil intelligence thinks that it can dictate to British subjects in this country what they may or may not read. What Goebbelesque monstrosity dares to destroy the works of some of the greatest authors the world has ever known?
I should like to read you another letter. This is pitiful. Its English is not very good but you will understand it:
Dear Mrs. Nielsen:
I am Ann Galangey. I want to bring to your attention the following.
In the midsummer of 1940 the officer of R.C.M.P. raided our house, 13 Clarence, without reading the warrant to search the house, and without any reason they seized a number of literature; among these were number of my music books consist of famous composers of music, despite of my request they have never been returned to me.
Snatching the music books from children under the defence of Canada regulations!

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History has taught us something. It has taught us that the Ukrainian people do not retreat or surrender to the enemy when they fight. They are among the immortals of the world, and they have died for freedom's sake. Those Ukrainian people in Canada, too, have been fighting against the enemy, not a foreign enemy but the domestic enemy in Canada. They have been fighting, not with force and violence, but with all the forces of democracy which they can muster. They have been fighting with petitions and letters to the government, letters to the Minister of Justice, and it is to our everlasting shame, the shame of members of this House of Commons, that we have not fought harder with them and made their fight our own.
Under these regulations the communist party of this country was banned. Now, every member of this house can think exactly what he pleases about me; I do not care one bit what people think of me. One does not have to be a member of the Salvation Army to agree that the Salvation Army should have the right to exist in this eountiy; one does not have to be a member of the communist party in this day and age to agree that at the present time they should have the ban lifted from them.
Although much has been said in the past abount the Soviet Union, you, my friends, know perfectly well how history has disproved those lies. You remember what was said about communist Russia years ago. I should like to quote something that was said a few years ago about communist Russia. It is not necessary to say who said it because it is the kind of thing that was said by so many people:
The world has learned two important truths about Russia. One is that Stalin is the very spirit of evil incarnate and the other is that the armed might of Russia is a myth.
The equipment in air force, army and navy is plentiful but out of date. The training and morale of the troops is bad. The army and navy have few trained officers and agriculture is badly disorganized. As a nation they are in every respect unfitted to engage any great power.
That is the kind of rubbish we heard circulated around the four comers of the world- lies generated and distilled in the minds of the people by the fascist leaders. They were repeated by fools and knaves all over the world. It was the communists who said that if ever we hope to preserve democracy we should join with the Soviet Union, but that was not published in those days. Just as history has proved all that foolishness to be incorrect, so I am perfectly sure that history will also prove something else to be incorrect, and that is another fallacy and lie
which originated with the same fascist sources. I mean the lie that communists believe in and will use force and violence. I would refer you, my friends, to the brief which was submitted by the communist party of this country to the Rowell-Sirois commission on dominion-provincial relations. It was admitted by unbiased readers at that time to be one of the finest briefs submitted, one of the finest types of analyses ever made of social conditions in Canada. I quote from page 14 of the brief:
The Communist party stands for socialism. But the Communist party repudiates now as in the past all theories or proposals looking to the forcible imposition of socialism upon the majority of the people. Such concepts are utterly and completely foreign to the Communist party. We never did and never will hold to a programme of forcible establishment of socialism against the will of the people. Anyone who proposes the attainment of socialism other than through the democratic will of the people is alien to the Communist party. The Communist programme and policy rests exclusively upon the democratic will of the people. No genuine democrat need harbour any fears of the Communist party.
Let me come to a more recent publication, which I am sure all members must have seen. I refer to the magazine Saturday Night of June 19, in which the leader of the communist party had his life story written up under the title, "Name in the News-How Tim Buck Got That Way". Many prominent men in Canada have had their lives so written up. I quote:
It is the same "Tim Buck", and just as was the case when the Rowell-Sirois commission was sitting, he recently rose before the national war labour board to present the outstandingly finest brief that has been submitted. Its merits lay in its clarity, scholarly documentation, thoroughly adult attitude toward a complex problem on which it endeavoured not to vituperate, but to shed light. It was aimed not at the overthrow of democracy, but at the establishment of a realistic, comprehensive dominion labour code. Mr. Buck produced a document that even the most conservative-minded legal experts in Ottawa consider well worthy of study. . . .
Canada, he says, is so -widely integrated politically that such a measure as is usually credited to him as his objective, namely, a small group grabbing physical power and enforcing communism upon the unwilling mass of citizens, would be quite out of the question. Support of the majority of the people for communism would be necesary in order to enforce it, and this they must show, in our parliamentary system, by voting for those who advocate it.
I should like to remind the house that the truth and only the truth will set us free, even if the truth falls on our ears and sounds strangely after the lies to which we have been accustomed for many years. If any member feels it incumbent upon himself to get up
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and defend the Minister of Labour in the administration of the defence of Canada regulations-


Mr. MITCHELL:: Not the Minister of
Labour.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: The Minister of Justice; I beg your pardon. I hope that no member of this house will insult our intelligence by declaring that the communist party believes in force and violence or will consciously or unconsciously peddle the lies of Hitler and Mussolini in this chamber in this regard. If there are two things more necessary now than ever before they are these. We must win the war for our own sakes, and to do that we need two things. We need international unity and the faith of our allies in us, and we need also national unity and the faith of the Canadian people in the democratic leadership this government should be giving them.
On June 22 of this year I went to Toronto, just as the Prime Minister did, to the great gathering that took place in the Maple Leaf Gardens for the "Salute to Russia," and I listened with considerable pleasure to the speech which he made on that occasion. Let me quote from the speech he made on June 22 as reported in the Globe and Mail of June 24. I quote:
"Apart altogether," he said, "from our comradeship-in-arms there are many reasons why friendship between our two countries should be particularly close," and he foresaw in the promotion of such understanding and friendship between nations "the beginnings of the new world order."
The editorial in the Globe and Mail goes on to say:
The views and sentiments which Mr. King expounded were quite impeccable, and altogether his speech was a commendable performance.
But it was surely a very unfortunate coincidence that on the day Mr. King was hymning the praises of Russia his Minister of Justice was reported as explaining to the House of Commons that he still regarded the Communist party of Canada as an illegal organization, and had no intention of lifting the ban upon it. Now the ruling spirits of the soviet union may have decreed the dissolution of the Comintern, but they have not foresworn communism, and are still in theory firm adherents of that creed.
We hope that Mr. Feodor Gousev, the Russian minister, has a strong sense of humour and can laugh at the farcical coincidence of our Prime Minister's elaborate eulogies of communist Russia and his Minister of Justice's reiteration of his determination to keep the Canadian Communist party suppressed.
What happened at Singapore in the last few tragic days before that city fell? They released the communists from the prisons. Why? Because they knew those people would defend Singapore to the very last drop

of blood in their bodies. When crisis overtook India and there was need for national unity, what was done? The ban on the Communist party was lifted. What is being done now in the efforts to unite the Free French? I quote from the New York Herald-Tribune of June 25, as follows:
The French committee of national liberation at a meeting to-day completed the personnel of the permanent military commission and declared invalid the acts of German-dominated courts in France against French patriots. . . .
The anti-communist laws adopted by the Edouard Daladier government on September 26, 1939, were abrogated and amnesty granted for sentences passed under these laws.
That is fine, but, I ask, who is out of step? Are all the other united nations out of step or are we? Last year wide sections of the Canadian people signed petitions headed "We Stand for Freedom", which appeared as full page advertisements in nearly all the great newspapers across this country. Leading churchmen of the protestant churches have asked, on behalf of themselves and their congregations, for the lifting of the ban on the communist party to promote national and political unity in this period of Canada's war emergency. Professors in our universities; business men; well known people such as Sir Ernest MacMillan, Clifford Sifton and Sir Ellsworth Flavelle; artists; leaders of farm and trade union organizations; Mr. Bracken, on behalf of the Progressive Conservative party of Canada; Liberal members, individually-all have expressed their feeling that this ban should be lifted. Every hon. member is familiar with the recommendation which was brought down in this house last year, but -which has been absolutely ignored since that time. The issue is not whether or not we are in favour of communism; the majority are not, and we all know that. The point is that there are only two alternatives before us to-day; and we must be on either one side or the other. Either we want a united Canada to win the war, with full democratic privileges to all who fight against nazi tyranny, or we are willing to allow a small group in the province of Quebec who oppose full participation in the war, and who do not really represent the people of Quebec, to dominate our government and our Minister of Justice, and to destroy the democracy which is the heritage of the Canadian people.
In my opinion, Mr. Chairman, democracy is allergic to despotism; it is allergic to the abuse of power. Democracy cannot live in the kind of atmosphere we have in Canada. Either the Minister of Justice obeys the will of the democratic majority of the people of this country or he becomes a despot and misuses

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the power which has been entrusted to him as a war emergency measure, to protect us from the machinations of the enemy within. It is true-and I hope the Hansard reporter gets this statement correctly-that communists all over the world are a menace. Yes, they are a menace, but to whom? Communists all over the world are a menace to fascists, to fascist-minded people and to those who propagate fascist propaganda. Because of that I say we should allow the communists to fight with us, legally, and should lift the ban upon them in this country. On behalf of the people of Canada my friends, hundreds and thousands of them-the great majority of them, I am convinced-I would ask the Minister of Justice before the end of this session to lift the ban from the communist party and all other democratic groups who have been denied their privileges and rights under the defence of Canada regulations. I ask that he grant them full freedom and give them every opportunity to participate in the winning of the war, or resign his position as Minister of Justice. It may be true that the communists are forming a new organization; there are reports to that effect, but that does not alter the fact that as long as the ban remains on the communist party, all Canadians are in danger; because any time any group of people advocated something with which the Minister of Justice does not agree, it would be the easiest thing in the world for him to say, under the defence of Canada regulations, " Representations have been made to me that you are a communist," and once again we would have a round-up. In Italy and Germany it all started with the rounding up of the communists, but it did not end with that. First the people gave away their rights to protect that minority; then little by little any liberal-minded person who dared express an opinion contrary to that of the powers that were, also found his way-as did Niemoller and thousands of others-into a concentration camp.
These things are not new; you are all familiar with them. I would say to you very definitely that our Minster of Justice has full command of the letter of the law, but in my opinion he has failed dismally to appreciate the spirit of democracy, and never in my life have I said anything about which I was more sincere. He has failed to capture the essential spirit of democracy. I would ask the support of every hon. member of this house; I would ask you to be Canadians first and forget your party; for the party must come second to the fact that we are all Canadians. I would ask that you support the idea that the people
of this country should have the opportunity for full political unity. You will remember that a great deal has been said about how wrong it is for people to join this communist party. Some time ago I noticed an item in the New York Times which was an eye-opener to me, and it may be that other hon. members have not seen it. It came from San Jose in Costa Rica under date of June 20, and reads:
Catholic workers may belong to the new political party, Yanguardia Popular, formerly the communist party, according to Archbishop Victor Sanbria, but catholics may not join nazi or fascist organizations. This information was given by the archbishop to Manual Mora, who was elected to congress by the communist party, of which he was secretary. He is secretary of the new party.
The archbishop indicated that while communism seeks world happiness and economic well being, and respects political, social and religious institutions, catholic workers may belong to Vanguardia Popular. Regarding nazism and fascism the archbishop quoted Father Juan Maria Restrepo Jaramille of Columbia as follows: "No Christian can be a nazi; no Christian can sympathize with nazism."
Perhaps, my friends, some of you may think what I have said to-day is a little stronger than it should have been. There is nothing too strong to be said in defence of those principles of democracy which alone will give us the power to win the war and build the new world in which we all believe so earnestly and for which our men are fighting. It is necessary that within this country we preserve the rights and privileges that belong to all free men and that no small section of our people be denied these things; for if you and I deny to one small section of the people the rights and privileges of democracy, it may be our turn next and, as I said before, when that time comes it will be too late.
Once again I would beg every single member of this house, whatever his party, whatever his position, to forget his party and to remember only one thing, that he is a Canadian and that he believes in democracy. I would urge their support to the end that before this session is concluded the Minister of Justice shall guarantee political unity for the winning of the war by lifting the ban on the communist party and all other democratic parties who have been denied their freedom under the defence of Canada regulations.


Mr. LACOMBE (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, I need not tell you that I do not agree with the views of the hon. member for North Battleford. Far from it, I urge the hon. the Minister of Justice to maintain the ban on communism in Canada. We do mot want the communist revolution to cause, soon or later, simultaneous outbreaks in a hundred places,'
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as happened in the country where that perverse and Godless doctrine originated.
I shall avail myself of this opportunity to call once again the attention of the hon. the Minister of Justice to the imprisonment of Mr. Camillien Houde, former mayor of Montreal and member for Montreal-St. Mary in the Quebec legislative assembly. The arbitrary nature of the prolonged imprisonment of Mr. Camillien Houde is not consistent with the democracy for which Canada is now waging a relentless fight. Neither is it consistent with the principles of freedom which we claim to be upholding in this war, or with the spirit of British criminal law which we have always observed. I will go farther; I do not hesitate to say that the powers given to the Minister of Justice under the defence of Canada regulations mean the sabotaging of our judicial institutions. They mean the discard of the habeas corpus principle, one of the most sacred rights of every British citizen. What is the reason of such relentlessness toward Mr. Houde? Has he not -long since paid his penalty? He has languished during two years and ten months in a concentration camp. He was taken from an internment camp, wearing the prisoners' uniform, and escorted by two constables as if he had been the lowest scoundrel, and he was brought before the advisory board at Fredericton. Tim Buck and his confederates have been freed, as well as Franceschini and others. Why has Camillien Houde not been given his freedom? That is what parliament has a right to know. The return of which I demanded the production a few days ago would certainly have enlightened us on that point. Powers should not be exceeded, Mr. Chairman, and there should be no persecution. So far as I know, that is not included in the war aims of the allies. Neither is it in accordance with the clauses of the Atlantic charter. I shall not say anything more.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman, I have a few words to say, with a view to securing information respecting the operation of the defence of Canada regulations, this being the only opportunity upon which such information will be forthcoming. I would ask the minister to state how many prosecutions have taken place under the defence of Canada regulations in the past year, how many convictions there have been, and how many searches under the powers of the regulations have been executed in the past year. Furthermore, I believe a general statement on the defence of Canada regulations is due at this time.

If there is one thing to be considered more than another in connection with the administration of regulations which grant extraordinary powers in a time of war, it is that they be administered fairly and in such a way as not to interfere with any person's right of speech, or freedom' of speech, so long as that freedom of speech is not exercised in a manner likely to prove detrimental to the welfare of the state. Furthermore the powers must not be used, nor must there be any suggestion of their being used, to stifle the religious beliefs of any group or body of people in Canada. This, again, subject to the condition that such religious beliefs are not being propagated in such a way as to interfere with the safety and integrity of the state. We go a long way farther under the administration of these regulations than do the British people. At one time the Minister of Justice was president of the Canadian Bar association, and on many occasions before that association he has heard outstanding lawyers from all parts of the dominion request that which I now request, namely, that the administration of these regulations shall be administered so as not to interfere with the religious beliefs of any person. At the last bar association meeting Sir William Monckton, counsellor of the duchy of Lancaster and representative of the British bar to the meeting of the Canadian Bar association, set out the point of view of the British bar and bench respecting the administration of the regulations in England which are analogous in their nature and effect to our defence of Canada regulations. He said this:
Democracy still prevails except where suspended to guard the national safety. When we became involved in this conflict there were many who prophesied that total war would prove incompatible with the essential civil freedoms. When they saw the wide powers which the British government assumed, they warned us that we were in danger of losing our liberty, but it has not been so. We have indeed been glad to give up for the purposes and period of the war a large measure of our freedom to choose our work. But this we recognize as inescapable if, as we wholeheartedly desire, the best use is to be made of our services to win the war.
And these words particularly I bring to the attention of the minister:
On the other hand freedom from capricious arrests and freedom of speech have been sedulously preserved.
That has been the attitude of the British people throughout the war. They deny the right of anyone to endanger the safety of the state, but they preserve freedom from capricious arrest, and freedom of speech.

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I have in mind the situation with respect to Jehovah's Witnesses. I do not uphold their doctrines, nor their tenets or beliefs. But I do uphold their right to worship their God as they please, so long as they do not thereby interfere with the safety of the state. Last year a committee of parliament recommended the removal of the ban on Jehovah's Witnesses. Yet the ban still remains. The experience of most of us has been that these are harmless people, devoid of any intent to do wrong to the state. Their beliefs are similar to the beliefs of conscientious objectors belonging to other religious groups. Why has the ban not been lifted? It cannot be because of any fear that this organization is detrimental to the welfare of the state, or that its actions are subversive to the war effort. There has never been even the slightest evidence that such is the case. If my recollection is correct, a number of outstanding lawyers in this dominion have made the statement that there was no such danger from this body. Why has the ban not been lifted? Why are these people still considered to be criminal simply because of the fact that they worship their god according to the tenets of their belief?
I wish to bring to the attention of the minister a matter which was brought to my attention within the last four or five days, a matter which I think requires some explanation. A woman by the name of Mrs. H. H. Mullins, of St. Georges de Beauce, in the province of Quebec, endeavoured to distribute some literature. I have a couple of samples of the type of literature she was distributing. It is in French, but I translate:
The Holy Bible is the Word of God. Read it.
Then follow a number of quotations from the New Testament according to the Crampon version. There is nothing in this literature other than quotations from the Holy Bible. But what happened to her? Around the fourth of this month the R.C.M.P. entered her premises. I speak subject to correction by the minister in what I shall say of the facts, but my information is that they made a search. They entered and removed the literature she had been distributing. There is nothing in the literature other than quotations from the Holy Bible. Is there anything in that type of literature that is detrimental to the welfare of the state or subversive in any way? While I have not the charge here, I am informed it was that she was distributing literature upon which the printer's name did not appear. This literature contains quotations from St. Paul's Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 3; the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, chapter 15, verse 4; the second Epistle of Paul to Timothy, chapter 3, verse 16, and so on. On July
8 this woman was taken into custody and placed in the gaol. I do not know what has happened to her since. I think an explanation is due as to why this search took place and why this woman was incarcerated instead of being brought before the court by summons. Most proceedings may be commenced under the defence of Canada regulations, but they cannot be continued unless the attorney general of the province or a representative of the Minister of Justice concurs. These are things which require the strictest consideration by parliament, because parliament exists for the purpose of redressing wrongs. Are prosecutions still taking place of Jehovah's Witnesses? If so, why are these prosecutions taking place? Why have the defence of Canada regulations not been amended in accordance with the recommendation of the defence of Canada regulations committee, which was composed of distinguished lawyer members of this house and men of experience from every province in the dominion? One year after this recommendation was made it is apparently still an offence to belong to an evangelical body, even though that body is preaching doctrines which none of us believe, I ask the minister to explain these things.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Mr. Chairman, what I am going to refer to to-day I have referred to before, and as I do not want to hold up the committee I shall not make any extended remarks. This committee has before it now a matter which has been before parliament since we adjourned at the end of last session, and I think it is something on which we should give an expression of opinion. It seems to me that the action of the Department of Justice cr of the government is not in accord with democratic procedure. I refer to the lifting of the ban of illegality which was imposed on certain organizations in June, 1940. A number cf organizations are included in this group, among them being the communist party of Canada, There are other organizations which might be termed subsidiaries or affiliates of this organization, and which were declared illegal because of their connection with the communist partjr. There is also the sect referred to by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker), Jehovah's Witnesses. I make a plea to-day for the lifting of the ban on the communist party. I am sure that no one in this house will accuse me of being a member of that party or of having any association with it. I have had to contest three elections to this house and on each occasion I have been opposed by a member of the communist party. At times they have not minced their words in opposing me, it having been stated that my election would really be
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more of a detriment to the interests of the workers than would the election of a member ox one of the old-time parties. Up until now my constituents have not agreed with that point of view.
The communist party of Canada was in existence before June, 1940, when it was declared illegal. Up until that time it had carried on its activities in the same way as other organizations. If it went beyond the laws of the country, those laws were there to check either the party or the individual member. It was declared an illegal organization in June, 1940, not because of anything in its constitution but because of its opposition to the war. That is why it and other organizations with it, were declared illegal. They advocated opposition to the war. As a matter of fact the candidate of the communist party opposing me in the election of 1940 opposed me because I was, he said, a warmonger who 'was supporting an imperialist war. There would be sufficient justification to declare such an organization illegal, because we cannot allow people who are opposed to the country's war effort to obstruct that war effort. I am sure that anyone speaking here to-day in favour of lifting the ban on the communist party would say that any organization or any individual who opposed the country's war effort should be put under restraint.
The communist party's attitude to the war, not only here but in every part of the world, remained the same until June 22, 1941. I am not greatly impressed by the suggestion that that sort of attitude saved us from destruction at the hands of the nazis and the fascists. It is my opinion that, if the democracies of the world had accepted the policy of the communist party, Hitler would have overrun the world long before now-let us make no mistake about that.
I was saying that the communist party was declared an illegal organization for a certain reason, and that reason was that the communists were opposed to the war. But now, having changed their opposition to support of the war, I maintain that any reason that existing for declaring the communist party to be an illegal organization has disappeared. I can see no possible reason for maintaining that attitude other than a certain prejudice against communist doctrines. I am myself opposed to communist party philosophy. Nevertheless I submit that as Canadians we cannot maintain that position and still hold that we are democrats, that we are trying to save democracy with all that word implies. Canada is the only member of the British

commonwealth, so far as I am aware, in which
restrictions are imposed on1 the communist party.
May I submit this, that even if the ban was lifted, the country would not be exposed to any danger, because the Minister of Justice would still have just as much jurisdiction in the matter as he had before. There :are laws in this country outside of the defence of Canada regulations to take care of subversive activities. Even under the defence of Canada regulations the minister could act. I have taken that position since the change in the communist party's attitude to the war. In November, 1941, at the first opportunity I had in this house, I proposed that the government should seek an exchange of representatives with the Soviet Union. I am glad that the government has done that. Although it is not a question at issue now', I am satisfied, because of the attitude of the communist party to the Soviet Union, that good relations between the democracies of the world and the Soviet Union is one of the ways by which we can assure orderly change through democratic procedure.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I did not quite catch that last sentence. Did I understand my hon. friend to say that good relations with the Soviet Union were necessary for the establishment of international order, that such relations would be promoted by the relations of the communist party to the Soviet Union?
Mr. MaeINNIS:	That is what I intended
to say, whether I put it clearly enough or not; and for this reason. The actions of the communist party since the war began are clear proof of the fact that they accept Russia as their fatherland. They have no regard for the countries in which they live. Their whole policy is concerned with safeguarding the interests of the Soviet Union. I submit that the way they undertook to do that at the beginning of the war was wrong. If I were a communist I do not think I would have taken that position, because once Great Britain was defeated-let me make this clear -once Great Britain was defeated I do not believe there was any other country on earth that could save the Soviet Union from being overrun by Germany. The difficulties are great enough as they are now, and if Great Britain were defeated to-day the Soviet Union could not be saved from Hitlerism. I realized that at the time, in the same way as I felt within me that the only assurance, the only hope of attaining the kind of world I had

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worked for these many years, could not be realized without the defeat of Hitler and all that he stands for.
There are other organizations, such as the Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple association, whose properties were confiscated, and in some cases sold, and as the hon. member for North Battleford has said, had their property destroyed. People do that sort of thing. Some people for one reason or another have a violent antipathy to knowledge and understanding, and at the first opportunity they seek to destroy it, just as Hitler sought to destroy the culture of Germany by destroying all that was constructive in the literature of Germany. There are many countries the people of which are not given access to the literature of the rest of the world. We are not working in the interests of Canadian unity now by treating the Ukrainian Labour-Farmer-Temple association as an illegal organization. We are not working to extend unity in our country if we refuse to take whatever action is in our power to return their property to the people who formerly owned it.
May I point out to the Minister of Justice and to the government that there is grave danger of our going off on the wrong track in another matter. I refer to the property of persons of Japanese origin who were moved from the defence area on the Pacific coast. I know it is not popular in certain quarters to say a word for these people; nevertheless I am going to say it. I believe the Minister of Justice and the government are proceeding on a most dangerous course, a course a democracy should not take. These people, with a very few exceptions, were not moved because of charges made against them. A great many of them are Canadian citizens, either by birth or by naturalization, and although they were moved as a defence precaution, we are dealing with their property exactly as though they were enemy aliens, which they are not. I draw that to the attention of the minister, because it is most important.
I support the hon. member for Lake Centre in what he said regarding Jehovah's Witnesses. These people presented their case to the defence of Canada regulations committee last year, and the Department of Justice also presented its case-if you can call it a case- against them. As I have said here before, never have I seen a weaker document upon which to declare an organization illegal than the document which was placed before the defence of Canada regulations committee last year as a justification of the action against Jehovah's Witnesses. I get letters almost every week from members of this sect who
are being molested by the police while exercising their religious rights. I do not care what a person's religion is, or whether he has any religion at all; that is his business and nobody else's; as long as in the exercise of his beliefs he does not interfere with the rights and liberties of others, he is entitled to hold whatever beliefs he sees fit. I should like to see the Minister of Justice, before this house prorogues, do what should have been done a year ago, namely, lift the ban on all these organizations. Then if any action has to be taken, the minister has all the scope for action which the safety of the country requires.


Ernest George Hansell: As a member of the defence of Canada regulations committee last year and this year, may I express the views which I hold and which are held also, I believe, by the party of which I am a member. Last year the committee went carefully into this whole subject. They held a good many meetings, they had before them champions of these various organizations and heard the best arguments which they could submit. I do not think I shall be telling tales out of school if I say that I reported to the party I represent-for, believing in democracy as we do, I was not desirous of acting on the committee merely on my own behalf, but sought instructions from our party-and they told me that I should vote on that committee for the lifting of the ban on Jehovah's Witnesses, Technocracy Inc., and the Communist party. I say that and in the same breath say that I do not think anyone in Canada could accuse the Social Credit party anywhere of being communists. That was done because we believe in the rights of free assembly and free speech in a democratic country. The lifting of this ban would not prevent action being taken against any individual who spoke or acted as though he were an enemy of the state. That goes without saying. The police can pick up anyone, whether an unattached individual or a member of any organization, if he is assumed to make utterances or do things which obviously or otherwise are detrimental to the safety of the state. But the fact that people are not free to assemble themselves as they choose, whether for public worship or the discussion of issues, is something which we regard as the very antithesis of democratic freedom.
The communist party, of course, has been referred to a good deal in this connection. However, it is only one of the organizations the ban on which is recommended by the committee to be lifted. Take Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance. I cannot for the life of me see why, because a body of people

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hold an interpretation of scripture which is adverse to war, the whole body of them should be declared illegal. If we carry that theory to its ultimate conclusion, probably the Doukhobors should be declared an illegal body. They do not believe in war. They do not fight. The evidence was brought out in the defence of Canada regulations hearings that very many adherents of Jehovah's Witnesses were and are in the king's uniform fighting for the country. Are we going to say that Jehovah's Witnesses are enemies of this state? I do not believe they are. I believe they are loyal citizens with a certain religious belief. They are honourable citizens and I see no reason why such an organization should be banned.
I am not here pleading the cause of Jehovah's Witnesses as a religious body because I am not one. As I have said over and over again in this chamber, I do not believe in their religious doctrines, but I do believe that every individual in this country has a right to interpret the scriptures as he desires. People have the right to meet on the Lord's day and assemble for worship as they desire. To say that such people are enemies of the state becauses they hold a certain belief is nonsense. I might just as well say that the pacifist in 1939 and since then has been and is now equally an enemy of the state. I might as well say that those who voted for a reduction in the defence estimates right up until almost the time of the war are as much enemies of the state as Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe they are enemies of the state. They did more harm to the country in sabotaging the country to the enemy than did Jehovah's Witnesses. These people are not regarded to-day as enemies of the state, however; they are honourable citizens holding certain convictions. That is all. I simply bring that to the attention of the committee.
One thing more I would say and that is in regard to the government's refusal to accept the recommendations of the committee. They had a perfect right to do so. It was within their purview; it was within their authority to refuse to accept the recommendations. But obviously it was a reflection upon the work of that committee. Unquestionably it was. The committee had all the evidence and it comprised men of average intelligence in this house, and those men arrived at their conclusions. To refuse to accept their recommendations can be regarded pretty much as a slap in the face.
I am not going to make a charge, but I am wondering how that committee will vote on the same question this year if they get a

chance to vote on it. The committee was not set up until well on in the session, and when it was set up the meeting of the committee was delayed and delayed until it was only a few weeks ago that they began their sittings. Somebody is responsible for that. At one of the first meetings we had a communication was read. I believe it was from Mr. Tim Buck; at any rate, it was either from him or from his organization. That communication requested that they be heard. I do not know whether they will be heard. Of course, the minister can say, "You are a member of the committee; why don't you insist on its being done?"


Mr.   S@: I do not like to
interrupt the hon. member, but I suggest that his remarks are not in order at this time. As he has said, he is a member of the committee and I assume that in due course the committee will make a report, and the matter can be discussed then. But there is a standing order which prohibits the discussion of the work of a committee until it has made its report. My second objection, with which I think the hon. member will agree, is that this is hardly pertinent to the matter now under discussion here.


Ernest George Hansell: I realize that one cannot discuss the work and the report of the committee that is still sitting, but my point is this. We are asked to vote a sum of money for the operation of the defence of Canada regulations. The committee of last year made recommendations, and those recommendations were not acted upon, and now we are asked to vote a further sum. All I am asking is this. If the committee this year brings in the same recommendations, will they be acted upon? The minister is not going to answer that question, I know, because he cannot do so now; but I am not now discussing the report of the committee. I am discussing the fact that the committee has been delayed in its operations, for some reason or other, and something should be done about it before it is too late. The committee is set up to deal with the defence of Canada regulations. Here is an appropriation we are asked to vote for the operation of the department under those regulations.
I will conclude by reiterating that what we are concerned about is to preserve the democratic right of free assembly and free speech in Canada. I think it does more harm than good to stop free speech, because when you stop free speech you do not know what is going on in the people's minds. When they are permitted to say what they think,

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we know where these various bodies stand. We know what this man or that man believes because he is permitted to express it. But how can you deal with anything properly and effectively if it is not permitted any expression? You cannot do it; that is all. I submit that to this committee and I urge that the recommendations be acted upon. It is not too late for the minister to follow that course.


Mr. NEILL:: I was not able to catch all that the hon. member said, but so far as they relate to Jehovah's Witnesses I endorse his remarks. I hope that if the minister is not disposed to make some concession to these people he will be in a position to inform the house and the country very definitely as to some reasonable reason why the ban should be continued against them. No man will support the minister more loyally than I in regard to anything he may do to suppress activities of a subversive character, but I know a number of these people, I live not far from them, and I have never known of any disloyalty among them, nor do I know anyone else who had any charge of that kind to make against Jehovah's Witnesses. They happen to have peculiar religious beliefs with which I do not agree, but that does not make them harmful or subversive. They may condemn my religious beliefs, and while, in times like these, we must be careful not to permit any underground work to go on under popular names, at the same time it is equally essential in these days when we are fighting for freedom that we should not go to the other extreme and penalize people unless we are sure that their doctrines or the methods they propose for carrying those doctrines into effect are subversive.
So far as my considerable knowledge of these people goes, I can say that there are a number of them in the district I represent and that they are decent, respectable people. Whatever their religious beliefs may be, that is beside the point. If the minister is not willing to take the ban off, I wish he would give us something to carry home to our people so that they may know why their organization is banned. It sometimes happens that while what you might call the ordinary people are quite blameless in their actions, some of the heads of the organization, perhaps in a foreign country, have done things which were improper. If that is so, let us know it; at least let us have something that will justify-if the ban is to be continued- the action taken by the government.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Since I was the first
member of this house to recommend the recognition of soviet Russia and the establishment of diplomatic relations, I cannot allow this debate to continue without saying a word or two in regard to this matter. First I will quote just one sentence from what I had to say in February, 1942, with regard to the soviet philosophy; it appears at page 299 of Hansard for that year:
We are going to have to admit that the soviet philosophy exists and that it has done great things; let us admit it openly and above the broad tables of government rather than have snivelling, subversive agents peddling anarchist literature to the adolescent minds of the students in our schools, universities and training camps. We have seen what anarchy has done in other countries. It can happen here.
We are the only part of the British empire to prohibit the communist party. The question of lifting the ban now has become a political football, and I do not propose to discuss that question to-day. I stand by everything I said in 1942, but I should like to say a word or two about communism. The history of the communist party during this war, outside Russia, has been almost what might be called ludicrous. At first they said this was an imperial war, a war for capitalists; it was this kind and that kind of a war, until Russia was attacked. Now the same people who urged young men in our training centres to have nothing to do with the war are saying this is a holy war. But all that does not mean that communism is not a world force and must not be considered as such. To try to pretend that this force does not exist is to be an ostrich, to bury our heads in the sand. That is what I object to in the present policy of the government. When France fell, one of the most disturbing features of the destruction of the French army-and this is particularly true of the army in the south- was the fact that it was riddled with communism. Statement after statement has been made by French soldiers who said, "The first thing we did when the Germans attacked was to shoot our officers. Then we did not know what to do." That was the effect of communism.
But what has it done in Russia? The study of Russian history and of Russia itself is something that should be taken out of the realm of politics. We study the French revolution; we study all the revolutions that have occurred in the history of the world including the one during which Charles I was executed. There is every reason why the same study should be given to the Russian revolution that has been going on since 1917, no matter what we may
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think of it or how we may disagree with certain of its tenets. To try to gloss over the facts; to keep this movement under cover, in my opinion creates a great danger to this state, and that is why I oppose the policy of the government. I am wholly and absolutely against communism, but it is a world power, a great movement, and we must recognize it as such. Let us not cover it up; let us bring it into the open, so that we may understand what it is. Let us not have one man saying that the salvation of the world depends upon communism and the man opposite saying that communism is the worst possible thing that ever happened to Russia. Let us evaluate the thing; let us get the proper facts; let us make a study of them; let us bring it into the open, so that we may all see what we axe dealing with.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have in my riding many Ukrainians, of whom there are large numbers in the city of Toronto. They belong to various associations, one of which is called the U.L.F.T.A. I know many of these people personally. It may be that at the beginning of the war they were communists; I do not know what they are now. They seem to be good citizens, or at least I believe they could be made into good citizens. In June, 1940, their organization was declared illegal and all its properties became vested in the custodian of alien property. They tell me that no formal charges were made by the government at any time, and that aside from the language of regulation 39C of the defence of Canada regulations they were given no indication as to why the ban was imposed. That regulation reads:
The following associations, societies, groups or organizations are hereby declared to be, and shall be deemed to be, illegal organizations. . . .
I imagine they were against the war and that was why the ban was imposed at that time. However, I understand that a change has taken place in the interval. All their properties were confiscated. In Toronto they had a very fine building which had been erected with the nickles, quarters, fifty-cent pieces, dollars and hard work of the people themselves. It was unfortunate that they got under communist control. Perhaps at that time the confiscation of their property was the right thing to do, but the mistake was in selling that property. As I understand it, other property belonging to Germans, Italians and Japanese is still held by the custodian of alien property, but in this case a different procedure was followed. As a matter of fact, I believe many of the members

of this association were Canadian citizens at the time. They had been here for a long time, and had taken their part in the development of Canadian music, and various Canadian activities. As I say, their property was confiscated. There were many protests in the newspapers, and from the civil liberties' association. Things have changed since then. What is the government going to do about the situation? I say that the fact that these properties are sold, and not held for them, is a great injustice. Are they to be treated forever as outcasts, and their property kept away from them, or is some restitution to be made to them, in the event of their behaving themselves and becoming good Canadian citizens.
While I am on my feet there is another matter to which I should like to refer. I suggest there should be a more elaborate ceremony in connection with naturalization proceedings. When a man or a woman takes upon himself the responsibilities of citizenship, he or she is accepting a heavy responsibility.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ross, Calgary East):: May I direct the attention of the hon. member to the fact that the item before the committee deals with expenditures in connection with the administration of the defence of Canada regulations.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I understand that.


George Henry Ross: I hope the hon. member will confine himself to the item.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The hon. member will have a full opportunity to discuss naturalization when the civil estimates of the Secretary of State, under whose department naturalization is administered, are before the committee. This department has nothing whatsoever to do with it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Has not this question connected with taking property away from these people something to do with it?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes; but the hon. member was discussing naturalization.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Perhaps the committee would permit me to complete what I began to say. I believe there should be a more elaborate ceremony for naturalization. It should be more impressive. I point out, too, that those people who are good Canadian citizens, who have been deprived of their property, who have been banned, and all that sort of thing, are still good Canadian citizens, and they should have proper consideration.

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Hon. N. A. McLA.RTY (Secretary of State): Mr. Chairman, in view of the discussion which has taken place in connection with the custodian, it might be proper for me to say a few words. I do not intend to speak at length. It just so happens that while I have been custodian it was not necessary either to destroy a book or to sell a single piece of property. So far as books are concerned, I had no information as to what books, if any, were destroyed. And, as a result of the question placed upon the order paper a few days ago by the hon. member for North Battleford, we have written to ascertain whether a list was made at the time the books were destroyed, at both Edmonton and Toronto. The hon. member's observations this afternoon were the first intimation I had that any books whatsoever had been destroyed at Toronto, and I have not had an opportunity to investigate upon that point.
However, I did investigate the situation in regard to the sale of the labour temples. I believe that out of 111 some seventeen have been sold. But my advice is that not a single labour temple which was able to carry itself was sold. This is not a dominion-wide organization; and I mean by that that one cannot transfer funds from a central source to protect the individual temples. Each temple had to stand on its own feet.	.
Now, not one single labour temple was sold, except for one of three causes: First, there was a mortgage against it, and usually heavily overdue. The revenue was not sufficient to pay the mortgage. In that event foreclosures would inevitably have followed, and the whole thing would have been a complete loss. Second, there were other cases in which there were heavy arrears of taxes. If sales had not been made in respect of those cases, again there would have been complete loss to the owners. Third, some of the buildings were in an extremely dilapidated condition. There were no funds of that branch available to put them in proper condition, and they were becoming more dilapidated day by day. In other words, before any property was sold, at least one of those conditions had to exist.
In connection with the sales, I am advised that none were sold without advertisements for tenders being carried in the newspapers. In all cases I believe tenders were asked for. Then they could not be sold to any organization which stood in the same position as the owners of the temples.
I mention these facts so that the public may not gain the impression that the custodian was out to try to effect sales. That is not correct. The only sales effected were to preserve the equity which might exist in the property which will, when the ban is lifted,
be returned to those who are entitled to receive it. In other words, I am advised the custodian did not look for purchasers. He was not anxious to sell it, and in fact where it paid its own way, had no carrying charges and would not be a complete loss, he refused to sell it. I think hon. members in the committee will agree that where the assets were wasting, it was much better to realize what could be realized, rather than just let it go by default, and realize nothing at all.
I believe that is the whole situation in connection with the sale of labour temples. They were not sold because the custodian wanted to sell them. They were sold because, if he did not sell them, there would not be anything left for the owners.
It is needless for me to point out that the custodian was and is a purely administrative officer. The government of Canada placed the ban, on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice of the day. Once that was done, the custodian did not act under section 39 of the defence of Canada regulations. The custodian acts-must act-under the authority of the trading with the enemy regulations. Consequently, I should like to make it abundantly clear that I am not arguing for the return of the property to the labour temples. Frankly, I am told it would be a relief to the custodian if they were returned, because they have been a considerable burden and care. But I do wish to make the position clear, because the suggestion was made that we were simply trying unfairly to rid ourselves of the temples, by selling. That is not correct.
Mr. STIRLING; Would the Secretary of State be good enough to refer to a subject discussed by the hon. member for Vancouver East, namely the sale of Japanese property. Is it correct to say that no Japanese properties have been disposed of, except with the consent of the owners?


Mr. McLARTY:: No; that is not correct. I do not think the consent of the owners was ever requested in respect of the rural property sold to the soldier settlement board. In that connection may I explain that we set up two advisory committees. One was to deal with urban properties, and was headed by Mr. Justice Sydney Smith; and the other, headed by Judge Whiteside, was to deal with rural properties. Japanese sat on each of these committees. One felt, however-and I believe one could scarcely criticize him for the feeling- that they were being placed in an extremely embarrassing position. The result was that he resigned. But to say that we got the consent of all the owners in connection with the sale of 769 parcels to a value of $850,000
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would not be correct. What happened was that the sale was negotiated by the local representative of the custodian acting in the first instance, and Mr. McPherson acted in the second. The price was tentatively agreed upon. It was then submitted to the advisory committee, and the advisory committee unanimously recommended its acceptance. Those are the only properties of Japanese evacuees which, so far as I know, have been sold.


@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: (Mr. Ross,
Calgary East): Shall the item carry?


John George Diefenbaker: No; we would expect the minister to reply.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am waiting until hon. members have concluded their remarks.


Frederick Davis Shaw: On July 7 the minister gave certain information in reply to a question asked by the hon. member for North Battle-ford (Mrs. Nielsen) and referring to Charles Brandel Crate, who was designated as the former leader of the Canadian Union of Fascists. I was greatly surprised that this statement should have been made, inasmuch as the- impression was conveyed that this man, who had become quite famous prior to the outbreak of war on account of his assertions against the democratic form of government, had been allowed to go free simply because he had dissociated himself, so to speak, from the organization by signing a declaration to the effect that he was no longer a subversive agent dangerous to Canada and to our form of government. I am just wondering how many cases there are where a similar situation developed. Following the signing of the declaration, Crate was employed in Newfoundland, then by a Toronto construction company and later on he went to Dawson Creek in British Columbia. Whether this man reported periodically to the mounted police is something about which I am not certain, but I have reason to believe that he did not. I understand that for three months prior to June 1 the Royal Canadian Mounted Police lost track of this individual.
I happened to meet Crate quite by accident early in June. I did not know the man; I had never met him before, but I soon realized what he was on account of the assertions he made at that time. Crate is definitely an exponent of fascist and nazi principles. He makes no bones about that. He stated definitely within my hearing that the only mistake he made was to permit his organization to be designated as a fascist organization. He said that one of the finest things that ever happened to him was when the government of Canada had been led to

believe that the Canadian Union of Fascists no longer existed. He laughed about that. He stated to me that much effective work had been carried on since the banning of the organization in June, 1940. He agreed that the things which Hitler and Mussolini were endeavouring to do were proper things to be done, not only in those countries but here in Canada. He stated that he disagreed to a certain extent with some of the methods used, but he did not disagree in any sense with their objectives.
I think this committee is entitled to information, not only with respect to Crate and Crate's organization but also with respect to the treatment which has been accorded such persons who established reputations in this country prior to the war as fascists or nazis. I do not wish to say more at this time, but I am definitely not satisfied with the statement the minister gave to the house on July 7, 1943.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: Did the police receive copies of letters written by Mr. Crate to people in northern Ontario some time last summer in which he definitely stated his intentions to carry on his fascist activities?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I shall make inquiry, but I think I can say at once that the police did not receive such letters. I recently examined the file in the department concerning this man and I saw no evidence of any such letters. Perhaps the hon. member would be kind enough to give me further identifying particulars which would facilitate the inquiry. Perhaps I may be allowed to deal with the matters raised by hon. members not quite in the order in which they were submitted, but taking the last first and the first last. The information supplied by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Shaw) about the statements which he himself heard will be of much interest to the police, because this man Crate is at present being prosecuted. I am sure the attorney general of the province in which he is being prosecuted will be glad to know that he will be able to get evidence from the hon. member which may be pertinent to the prosecution.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I think the minister will find that this was shortly before Crate's apprehension. It may be that he was apprehended as a consequence of certain things he said at that time.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Possibly, and that will make them all the more interesting to the attorney general. He will be glad to know that not only will the hon. gentleman be

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available himself as a witness but will be able to supply the names of other persons who were present.


Frederick Davis Shaw: I am perfectly willing to support any assertions I have made to-day.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am not implying the contrary in any way. This information will be communicated to the attorney general and to the police who have been investigating the situation. It is said that this man was allowed to work in Newfoundland and in Dawson Creek, but these were not protected areas and being a Canadian citizen he would be allowed to go to these places as long as he was not interned. The hon. member asked for information about the members of this party.
I may say that of the thirty or so who were detained, fewer than ten have been released. In the case of other groups that were interned since the outbreak of the war, more than half have been released.
There seems to be some misapprehension with respect to the defence of Canada regulations. I have heard it said several times that the Minister of Justice was to be asked to lift the ban on the Communist party and other subsidiary organizations. That implies power and jurisdiction in the Minister of Justice which he does not have. These regulations were brought into being by the governor general in council. All the Minister of Justice could do would be to recommend to his colleagues in the first instance, and if he got their approval, then a recommendation could be made to his excellency for the modification of the regulations. A recommendation was brought in by a committee toward the end of the session last year, but no attempt was made to have that recommendation adopted by the house. Had it been adopted by the house, it would have been the duty of the Minister of Justice to recommend its implementation. It was well known to members of the house last year that there was serious doubt as to what would have happened to the recommendation had it been put to a vote.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Minister of Justice does not suggest for a moment that a condition precedent to government action is that the house should take action?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Not at all. I am answering the reproach that I disregarded the view or recommendation of this house. I have not been here long, but I have been here long enough to conceive-that was true even before I came here-such a respect for the house that I should not like to be put in that position. I should not like anyone to feel that I would
attempt to set up my own views against those of the majority of the house. But from what knowledge I had of what took place last year I did not feel that it was the view of the majority of the house that this recommendation should be implemented, and I felt I was at perfect liberty to wait until the house had expressed its views upon it.
There were other matters. I did give consideration to the way in which these regulations were drawn. Hon. members know, of course, that I was not here when they were originally set up. They were in such form that it might appear they imposed restrictions upon religious liberty, and I recommended to my colleagues, and in turn it was submitted to his excellency and approved, that the regulations be amended in such a way as to provide that no person shall be guilty of an offence against the regulations by reason only of his attending a meeting the sole purpose of which is religious worship or instruction.


John George Diefenbaker: That does not cover the situation at all. It used to be prima facie evidence of guilt, and this just removes the evidence of guilt and nothing else.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: My learned friend will have an opportunity of criticizing what we did.
I want to give a factual statement of what was done.
There was a further amendment made which could properly be open to the criticism my hon. friend has just suggested. Formerly anyone who was an officer or member belonging to one of these organizations was guilty of an offence. This was amended to provide that anyone "who acted" as an officer or a member would be guilty of an offence under the defence of Canada regulations, subject, of course, to the provision that it would not be an offence against the regulations to attend a meeting for the purpose of worship or instruction. That is -the factual situation, and it is the only point I wish to make at this time.
As to why the ban was originally imposed upon Jehovah's Witnesses, among other organizations, I have only hearsay information about -that, because the regulations wtere passed at -the very outbreak of the war, and this particular provision was adopted in June, 1940, a year and half before I left my professional activities in the city of Quebec. I have ascertained, however, that this is a very large international organization and the amount of literature that is put out from the Watch Tower on behalf of this organization is something fabulous; it runs into tens of millions of tracts and various other publications. It is also well known that thousands
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of phonographs with recorded speeches of their great leader, the so-called Judge Rutherford, are being used to further enlighten the people. There are also, or there were, very large numbers of motor trucks fitted out with these phonographs and loud speakers to blare to the population at large the merits of that particular doctrine and the demerits of all religions. All religions, according to their theory, are satanic missions to establish and maintain the dominion of his satanic majesty over the whole earth. I do not imagine that was the reason why the regulation was originally enacted, but rather because their doctrine is, of course, against war. There is no war, according to their theory, that is anything but the machinations of the devil himself, and not only that, but their view is that human-made laws have no binding force upon the individual if they happen to contravene what these gentlemen regard as being proper human behaviour. This doctrine is certainly subversive of organized society.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does it go quite that far?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am informed that it does.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not think it did.


John George Diefenbaker: The United States supreme court did not find that.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Not on the evidence submitted. The supreme court, of course, had to deal only with the evidence that had been properly submitted in the case. That is the danger of the thing we are now being asked to do, that when you do not make the affirmation that a thing is illegal, the reverse is often asserted as being the effect of that decision, and what has been sought with respect to communists and all these others is something upon which they could declare that this house or this parliament had declared the party to be a legal organization.
With respect to the Ukrainian Farmer-Labour-Temple association and the Finnish organization, they were two incorporated bodies which were used by the communist party as the holding companies for all property acquired for the purposes of the communist party, and the situation with respect to those two organizations is the same as it is with respect to the party itself. No one will attempt to justify the burning of books. I do not know when or where or how that came about. The Department of Justice had nothing to do with the property of the banned organizations. The Secretary of State as custodian is a trustee accountable' for the
fMr. St. Laurent.]
property temporarily vested in him as the result of the banning of an organization or the detention of an individual.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: What department ordered the destruction of these books? Their destruction must have been ordered by somebody. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police would not act without instructions.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I do not know how, when or where it was ordered or even that it was ordered or that it was done, other than the information submitted through the reading of affidavits this afternoon by the hon. member for North Battleford. No one would attempt to defend the burning or destruction of property, whether it be books, music or anything else; and if the property has not been cared for properly by the custodian, he will in due course be required to account for his administration as a trustee of this property.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: Have no letters reached the department from groups, such as the Ukrainian Farmer-Labour-Temple association, stating these things?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: There have been hundreds, thousands of letters and petitions, very often on mimeographed forms, indicating clearly that they came from one central spot and were the result of propaganda to achieve the object being pursued. But the hon. member will pardon me if I do not believe, everything which is written in that kind of material which comes to the department.
As regards the communist party and the eloquent address we listened to earlier this afternoon, the reminder that they were the people who were saying in 1939 the things which everybody else is saying in 1943 or was saying in 1942, I have material which is in language as brilliant, as striking, as forceful as the language used by the hon. member to-day, and I would call the attention of the committee to some of it. It is from the election manifesto of the communist party of Canada.


Thomas Miller Bell: What year?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: In 1940, or subsequent to 1939. I think it was probably in relation to the election to which the hon. member for Vancouver East made some reference in his remarks this afternoon.
They are conniving with the imperialist warlords of Europe to make war against the Soviet Union, the land of socialism, so feared and hated by the blood-drenching rulers of decayed capitalism. Because of this plan, they have been advised by Chamberlain to hold a quick election. . . .
The King government and the capitalist warmongers intend to use this fake election to extend their lying propaganda about the war. . . .

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In this war, the Canadian capitalists plan to revel in luxury at home, raking in the mounting piles of profits, while sending our best sons to rot and die in the trenches of someone else's war on a far-off continent. Greedily they count the millions that they will make from the life of every Canadian boy sacrificed on their barbarous altar of profits. A degenerate, besotten, parasitical class, they are carrying on a traffic in death. In exchange for war orders they are bartering Canadian lives. . . .
Then, summing up the platform:
. . . Bring Canadian boys back to Canada! Not a man must leave Canada's shores to die in imperialist war!
Repeal of the War Measures Act! The real fight for democracy is here in Canada against the war dictatorship of reaction! Freedom for the honest working class press! Release Douglas Stewart of the Clarion! . . .
The communist candidates, fearlessly taking their stand upon this platform of your interests appeal for your support. Capitalism and the capitalist class, breeding crisis, poverty and the horrible slaughter of war, are your enemies, are the enemies of humanity. . . .
Unite your ranks, build up your popular united front to defeat the war offensive _ upon your living standards and democratic rights! Never submit to the virtual military dictatorship that has been established by capital! Not all their lies, nor all their persecution apd suppression can defeat you!
Do not leave your fate and the destiny of your country in the hands of the parasitic, war-making capitalist class and their politicians! Determine to fight and live in Canada for peace and social progress; not suffer and die for profits! Extricate Canada from the imperialist war! . . .
Go to the polls and cast your votes for the communist candidates, for those who fight for your interests against the imperialist war camp! . . .
Join in one common front against this most criminal war of human history. Strike a blow in this federal election to save Canada, to end the war, for peace!
That is the kind of stuff which was being broadcast throughout Canada at a time when most of the Canadian people were realizing that the security and the very existence of the country were at stake, and a ban was placed by the defence of Canada regulations upon the organization whose views were thus expressed. These regulations were afterwards brought to the House of Commons, were considered and received the approval of the house. Now the effort is being made not only to lift the ban but for a declaration legalizing the communist party.
The statement is made that this is the only place in the British empire where communism is illegal.. I take issue with that. There is no place where the common law of Britain prevails that communism is not illegal as a subversive doctrine, and the members of the Labour party in the United Kingdom do not seem to have had very much doubt about
that when they were recently called upon to vote upon the proposal that since the dissolution of the Comintern they should admit the Communist party over there into their ranks. The same situation exists in the United States. Even if this were not on the books in the form of a defence of Canada regulation, the party would still be an illegal organization if, as its thesis always contended, and as was printed not more than fifteen months ago by the secretary of the great Civil Liberties League in Toronto, Mr. A. E. Smith, there is no other way, they themselves say, to institute their system than by violence. They say, "Of course the bourgeois, the capitalist class are never going to submit; we can only by violence overthrow them; we cannot get anywhere without it."


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not want to interfere with the minister's speech, but I should like to ask one question which I think is pertinent. The underlying principle of communism, as I understand it, is the overthrow of government by force. Is there any evidence in the files of the department which would lead the government to believe that that principle has been repudiated by this body?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	There have been
statements from individuals-


Richard Burpee Hanson: Individuals, yes.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: -repudiating it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But not from the body?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: 'The case of one man comes to my mind-I have not the file here- who answered, when these theses were put to him, well, of course he was prepared to suffer for those ideas.


Major James William Coldwell: May I ask the minister a question? I think he should be careful in naming organizations. I think he is mistaken in Mr. Smith's connection with the organization; I do not think it is the Civil Liberties' League. Probably it has some other name.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The communist party have changed the name and the gentleman still continues in office. It is merely a change of names.


Major James William Coldwell: The Civil Liberties'
League is a different organization.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I stand corrected.


Major James William Coldwell: Is it the National Council of Democratic Rights?

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Mr. ST. LAURENT: Possibly. That, is the name.


Humphrey Mitchell: They change their name so often.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am informed that at one time it was the National Council of Democratic Rights, and another time it was the Canadian Tribune Civil Liberties' Bureau of Toronto.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No; I
think the minister is wrong there. I hold in my hand an advertisement under the auspices of the Civil Liberties' Association of Toronto headed, "Help Canada to do justice," and the first signature is the Hon. H. C. Nixon, premier of Ontario. So that I think there is some error. Surely he is not in that bunch.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I would not want any mistake over the designation to cause discomfort.


Gordon Graydon: The minister has not
in mind interning the head of these signatories?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The Department of Justice never has in mind interning anyone until facts are brought to its attention that cause the minister to come to the conclusion that such action is necessary for the safety of the state.


Gordon Graydon: The minister has an open mind on him anyway.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: And on all Canadian citizens.
That situation was dealt with. Section 98 of the criminal code was repealed, and those who were in the house at that time will remember that the late lamented>Mr. Woodsworth taunted my predecessor with tendering with one hand what he was taking away with the other by reason of the amendment which at the same time he caused to be inserted in the code as to what amounts by statute to a seditious intention.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Of course, his reason was that a deal had been made for the repeal of section 98. Yes; a deal was made for the repeal of section 98, and the other correlative part which I think the minister is about to read was not a part of that deal. I remember it very well.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: There was in section 98 practically a whole code which I do not think very many could support in its entirety. But what was inserted was section 133:
Without limiting the generality of the meaning of the expression "seditious intention" everyone shall be presumed to have a seditious intention who publishes, or circulates any

writing, printing or document in which it is advocated, or who teaches or advocates, the use, without the authority of law, of force, as a means of accomplishing any governmental change within Canada.
That is the common law doctrine in the United States, and it was on that doctrine that the attorney general of the United States gave his celebrated opinion in the Brydges case, because anyone is deportable if it is shown that at the time he entered the United States he belonged to an organization that advocated the use of force for the overthrow of American institutions.
To get back to something more within the scope of what is sought from this committee at the present time, this is an appropriation of $35,000 to cover the expenses of advisory committees that act under the defence of Canada regulations. The amount expended last year was almost twice that, because soon after I assumed office I came to the conclusion that there would probably be a large number of those interned who, upon examination of their cases, would be released, and I felt that if it were so in general, it was my duty to see that they got their hearings just as expeditiously as possible. I had three committees sitting practically all the time and about a thousand cases were considered. The situation now is that it will be only occasionally that committees will be required to sit and act, and it is for that reason that the amount of the appropriation asked for at the present time is considerably less than what was expended in the past year.
I was forgetting to speak of the special case referred to by the hon. member for Lake Centre. The defence of Canada regulations are a part of the law of the Country and are administered in general, as is the criminal law of the country, by the attorneys general of the provinces. There arises frequently a confusion out of the fact that in some provinces the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has contracts with the provincial government to do provincial policing, and whenever there is something with which a member of the force is apparently connected the impression gets abroad that that is something that is being done by the Department of Justice. Most of the time that is quite wrong; it is something in which the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is carrying out duties and responsibilities of the attorney general of the province.


John George Diefenbaker: And responsible,
under the Minister of Justice, to account to this parliament.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	A member of the
Royal Canadian Mounted Police is responsible to the Minister of Justice if he does some-

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thing which is not in accord with the contract entered into by the department with the province under the authority granted by this parliament. This parliament has provided under what conditions contracts may be made with a province or with a municipality to make the services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police available to that province or that municipality for the ordinary police work in that locality.


John George Diefenbaker: What is the situation with respect to the use of the mounted police in the province of Quebec?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	In the province of
Quebec there is no contract, nor do I think there is with any municipality in that province.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do they
execute any authority in the administration of justice, in the province of Quebec, under the attorney-general's department?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	They do as sworn
police agents, just as we expect the constables who are sworn under provincial or municipal organizations to cooperate in enforcing peace and order. However, I will make special inquiry with respect to the case to which my hon. friend has called my attention. I had heard nothing at all about it and was certainly aware of no instructions from the department to take these proceedings. I cannot say whether there were instructions from the attorney-general or from the mayor or what you will, but I will inquire and find out what is being done. I can assure my hon. friend, however, that there were no instructions from the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in that connection. The hon. member was under a misapprehension when he suggested that, though proceedings might be started by anyone, they could not be continued without the concurrence of the Attorney-General of Canada or the attorney-general of the province. That would be true under regulation 39, but prosecutions under 15 (a), for distributing pamphlets that do not show the printer's name and address, are not subject to that special requirement, and that article can be enforced under the ordinary terms of the summary convictions provisions.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then the
minister suggests that as far as Quebec is concerned, taking the instance referred to by the hon. member for Lake Centre, the attorney-general's department of that province would have no jurisdiction and no right to command the services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	No right to command the services of the mounted police, but the factual situation is that the mounted police making investigations in any part of the province report them to the attorney-general of Quebec or his accredited representatives, and sometimes they are asked by the attorney-general or his representatives to make a complaint upon which proceedings are originated. But that is as peace officers and not because they are subject to any direction by the attorney-general.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Full responsibility for their action is still here.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	Full responsibility
for the action of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police acting as such is here.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Or in any capacity, I should think.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I would not say in any capacity, because there have been judgments where damages were claimed; for instance, where it was contended that a peace officer did not engage the responsibility of those who appointed him when he was exercising statutory powers given by the criminal code or other like legislation to a peace officer.


Gordon Graydon: We pay them and they should be responsible here.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: They should be responsible for what they are required to do, and as a matter of fact the commissioner holds them responsible to him for whatever they do.


Gordon Graydon: Which means that you hold him responsible to you?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I hold him responsible to me, and I attempt to defend before this house the discipline he enforces among his men.


John George Diefenbaker: Mr. Chairman-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Six o'clock.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Would it inconvenience the hon. member if some other item were proceeded with at eight o'clock? There is a dinner this evening at which the Prime Minister has asked me to accompany the guest of honour, and it would be inconvenient if I were not able to attend. So that if it does not inconvenience hon. members, perhaps trade and commerce and mines and resources might be proceeded with this evening.


Gordon Graydon: In that sequence?
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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Trade and commerce first. There are two other items, one under the Secretary of State dnd one in the Post Office Department.


Gordon Graydon: Do I understand that trade and commerce will come first?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes; then those two other items, and then mines and resources.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I hope to be back some time later on, when the hon. member for Lake Centre is here, to continue this discussion.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.



DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
Export permit branch
[Stage Direction]
Administration, $144,160.
Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to hold up these items at all, but seeing there has been no explanation made in connection with the various items, I thought I would make a brief explanation as they are called. In connection with the export permit branch I would inform the committee that at the request of the Department of Munitions and Supply, the wartime prices and trade board and other branches charged with conserving Canada's supplies, a great number of Canadian commodities are placed under permit before they can be exported. This branch considers the application, and either issues or refuses the necessary permit, after consultation with the various administrators and controllers.
Permits are refused for one or more of the following reasons: To conserve materials for Canada's own war effort, or that of the united nations; to conserve supplies for Canadian civilian use; to conserve supplies in order that our commitments to the United Kingdom may be fulfilled; because of dangerous destinations or undesirable consignees.


Mr. PERLEY:: Will there be an opportunity to discuss the report of the wheat board, or should that discussion come under some other item?


James Angus MacKinnon: I do not think there is any possibility of discussing wheat under any of these items. I hoped that the civil estimates for my department would be up within a short time.


Ernest Edward Perley: When is that likely to be?


James Angus MacKinnon: I cannot promise what may happen in the house, but I hope they will be before us shortly. I shall do my best to have them before the committee as soon as possible.


Mr. MARSHALL:: What were the expenditures last year?


James Angus MacKinnon: To a great extent this is a new development in the Department of Trade and Commerce. In the past year or two we have been talking over matters connected with the war. Those are the items under consideration to-night, and they are entirely separate and apart from the ordinary estimates of the department.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This is
purely an administration item. How big a staff has the minister? I thought a good deal of this work was being done by permanent officials from other departments?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes; there is quite a substantial staff. But a substantial number of them are officers of the Department of Trade and Commerce who have been holding other positions throughout the world as trade commissioners or assistant trade commissioners. These men are in Ottawa, having returned from overrun countries and, as the hon. member has said, they are being used very effectively on this work.


Ernest Edward Perley: Would the minister deal with permits issued for the export of feed grains to the United States?


James Angus MacKinnon: The export of feed grains does not come under this item. This item refers to export permits granted to the departments I mentioned.


Thomas Langton Church: This is the first opportunity this year we have had of dealing with the Department of Trade and Commerce. As hon. members are aware, these items refer entirely to war appropriations. The war has made a great many changes in the functions of this department. The chief difficulties I see in the work of this department are those which can be traced to the war. We must remember that, so far, trade has always followed the flag. To a great extent our trade has been carried on within the empire, and that portion of it carried on outside the empire has developed extensively through most-favoured nation agreements.
This is the first opportunity the committee has had to discuss our export and import trade, a process upon which the whole empire has developed. We have had many agreements affecting exports and imports. Trade is closely related to other problems of the empire to which we belong, and to the world at large.

War Appropriation-Trade ami Commerce
For instance, defence is closely connected with trade. We have export and import trade. As we know, our development on the seven seas has been built up largely by our trade with the motherland and the empire. We did have an empire agreement with all the dominions and the crown colonies. The Department of Trade, and Commerce has sent its commissioners throughout the world, and as a result we are very closely connected with our best customers.
Our best customer, however, is the mother country. She cannot any longer exist unless she is linked up with the empire. During the war we have seen the result of the disarmament policy, one which nearly finished Great Britain and nearly finished Australia and New Zealand. It also nearly finished the trade of this country.
I suggest that under this war appropriation measure the minister should state what Canada's policy and position is. We should be told our position now, as a result of the war, and as a result of our trade with our best customers. This empire had its being by the sea, and it cannot exist without the sea and the dominions. The senior dominion is Canada. We are still linked up with our best customer, and without that bond I do not think the empire could exist. As hon. members know, we have in Canada an abundance of raw materials.
The minister has done a very good job in expanding Canada's trade. He has developed to a greater extent trade with South America and with other parts of the outside world. We would hope, too, that our trade with those countries might continue after the war. I believe, however, that in connection with the war appropriation estimates the minister should sound a policy which would be well recognized and admitted. As I have pointed out on other occasions, the mother country has to import twenty-five out of twenty-seven of her raw materials. To a great extent she has to depend upon the empire for her supplies of those materials. I believe in the old policy of accepting an exchange of manufactured goods from her for raw materials.
Let us not forget that New Zealand, Australia and all the rest of the empire is linked up in this great fight. They have fought a good fight, and the empire has nearly beaten their enemy from without. The enemy from within, the war losses and depressions and that sort of thing, may still have to be faced. I would point out to the minister that last year Great Britain made a strong and binding agreement with Russia, under which Britain becomes what might almost be called, with Russia, the police constable of trade and commerce on the seas at both ends of Europe.
The dominions are not parties to that treaty. The Anglo-Soviet treaty affects only the United Kingdom. It was signed without committing the other dominions in any way. The influence which Britain will have in the post-war period and in discussing the peace terms will depend largely upon the unity of her dominions. If the dominions try to stand alone as independent countries in trade and for defence purposes, they will not get on because none of them can stand alone without the empire. The dominions and the empire must be a unit in a military way, in a trade way or in a commerce way, because they are absolutely correlated and coordinated. I am one of those who believe that notwithstanding what has been done there will always be nations and international trade. We are largely dependent upon the motherland which has been our best customer in peace and war alike.
The empire must be maintained, I was glad to see the announcement made of an empire , civil air conference-I do not know whether it is official-about the part that civil aviation will play after the war. We nearly lost the lead in civil aviation to the United States. I hope the Department of Trade and Commerce will look into this, because civil aviation is going to be one of the greatest agencies of trade. I hope it will be free from the war ministry. The dominions have had agreements for interimperial trade. We want to trade with South America, but we must not forget that we are part and parcel of the British empire. I am opposed to these ideas of internationalism that would force us to give up the sovereignty rights to our bases. I believe we should conserve our rights in these bases since in trade and commerce under our shipping laws the world's ships can go into any British port to do trade with us, provided these ships obey our port and municipal laws and do not attempt to engage in coastal trade. We should conserve the rights to these bases, and be ready to cooperate with our allies in trade, but no sovereignty over any of them should be given away to any other nation. They are empire ports.
Britain and the dominions have flourished as a result of trade carried on. The British empire has been a great customer of this country and it must continue to be. Great Britain is highly industrialized and we must continue to do business with her and give her liberally of the raw materials she needs. She has been one of our best customers. She must, import twenty-five of the twenty-seven essential raw materials she uses, such as oil, iron, zinc, copper, tin, rubber, cotton, wool and timber. We never realized how important
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were our relations with the mother country until the far east was lost. As individual members of the empire we can do nothing, but collectively we have a great advantage. The British colonies under the colonial policy of the mother country have provided raw materials for the whole world without let or hindrance or interference. Notwithstanding the fact that the colonies in the West Indies and the far east had trade agreements with the mother country, nothing was done to prevent them from supplying raw materials freely to the rest of the civilized world. We must do everything to help our empire trade because we cannot get on without it.
We should be ready to cooperate with our allies and allow them to use these air bases, but we should not give away sovereignty over them. The empire has thrown back its enemies from without and in my opinion she will go on to destroy them. Now is the time that we should try to recapture the spirit of empire and our faith and pride in our dominions and in our trade and commerce. The empire is a living thing and should not be allowed to go by default or into liquidation. The mother country and the dominions fought this battle alone for two years. Our soldiers carried on with those from India, New Zealand, South Africa, Australia and the empire training plan. We stood shoulder to shoulder in the snows of Labrador and Newfoundland and in the heat of India and the far east.
In the days before the war you could go into any large port and find fifteen or sixteen ships from different parts of the empire carrying on their trade. I believe that this same spirit of empire cooperation will continue in the years that are to come. Canada should be ready to go along with the dominions and the empire. The time has come when the Minister of Trade and Commerce should tell this committee and the country what our relations are with the other sister dominions who fought along with us for two years to save civilization. One of our great allies stood aside for two years with Germany, but Russia has since made a glorious record. To-day she is practically fighting her battles alone except for some supplies and munitions that are being sent in. Poland fought her battle alone, but now the dominions are united together in this fight in North Africa and in other parts of the world. Now is the time to build up our empire trade. The empire is our best customer. It stood by us when we were a small dominion. I should like to conclude by quoting what has been said in a great textbook by

Professor Macneile Dixon, a great Scotsman, who has been interested in our empire and our trade. He said:
Civilizations arise, and continue to exist- and all history is witness to the truth-when conditions are hard, only when they are continually threatened, only when they are determined to maintain and defend their rule. They decline and fall when the external pressure is removed, or the inner spirit . . . decays. If an individual or a people ceases to believe in itself, its aims and ideals, others with firm aims and beliefs will climb into the saddle. The decline and fall of England, which will rejoice our enemies, will not be England's decline and fall only, but of all for which she stood, and not till then shall we know the extent of our miseries. I, at least, am not of the opinion that humanity, justice, freedom, no, nor Christianity, will be the gainers in that fall.
Up to now our sister dominions have borne the brunt of the war, and we should rejoice to have attained the success we have recently in driving back the enemy. We should also rejoice to get into a close partnership with the other dominions and with the mother country with a view to making a better world.
I do not believe altogether in all this international policy. If we had had an international policy which meant the giving up of empire ports like Gibraltar and Suez, the Cape, the far east and the West Indies, where would we be to-day? The empire would have been destroyed, and that would have meant the fall of civilization. Let us cooperate in matters of trade along the lines of the old shipping laws, allowing other countries to use our ports, but as to giving up our sovereignty -no.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Is this the item under which export permits are granted for shipments of coarse grains?


James Angus MacKinnon: No. I did not want to interrupt the hon. member for Broadview, but his remarks would have been quite proper on the ordinary estimates of my department. I do not think they were quite appropriate on this particular item. I do not mention that in criticism of him but just as a suggestion to other hon. members.


John George Diefenbaker: I desire to deal with the question of the export of lumber, which is a matter of great importance, particularly to western Canada, where a number of small mills had from the beginning of the war contracts for the shipment of lumber to the United States to be used in various defence projects. The contracts allowed for a price to the Canadian producer that assured him of his costs and a profit. But some time ago, I think it was in October last, an order

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
was made forbidding the export of lumber to the United States, and an order in council was passed by the terms of which relief was given to the Canadian producer from the consequences of his being thus prevented1 from carrying out his contract in the United States.
I should like to have a statement from the minister as to the policy being followed with reference to the export of lumber. That is a subject which is causing a lot of ill feeling in the United States to-day. They feel that they should have the privilege of receiving at least a portion of the lumber that is being produced in western Canada in order to permit of the completion of their defence projects, which are of direct benefit to the united nations. I should like also to know from the minister whether it is the intention of the department or of the board charged with the responsibility of setting the price to set the price at a higher level so as to ensure to the Canadian producers a reasonable profit. On the basis of present prices it is almost impossible for the small producer to get out the lumber at a profit, having regard to his production costs for labour and the like, which have materially increased within the last year.


James Angus MacKinnon: The hon. member for Lake Centre refers to a situation with which I am familiar through the department and because I know of the difficulties of the lumber producers, particularly in the northern portions of the three western provinces. The matter has had to be decided on the basis of where is the greatest need for lumber. We reached the point where lumber exports to the United States had to be stopped on account of the need for lumber at home in our own war construction projects, not only in western Canada but in all parts of Canada. I do not think there is any misunderstanding in the United States over our action in this matter. We have had conversations with United States authorities, and they are fully aware of our peculiar position and of our requirements for more lumber than we can produce. I am sure the hon. member knows that arrangements have been made to assist the lumber producers at least in part, in compensation for the loss of the higher prices in the United States market.


John George Diefenbaker: What is being done?


James Angus MacKinnon: A bonus is being paid to the producer.


John George Diefenbaker: What is the amount?


James Angus MacKinnon: I am not sure at the moment.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does this bonus operate through the minister's department?


James Angus MacKinnon: No; it is paid through the Department of Munitions and Supply.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What percentage of our lumber is being exported to the United States, and what percentage is being retained in Canada?


James Angus MacKinnon: My understanding is that practically all our lumber is being retained. For a while we allowed lumber to be exported to the United States for purely war purposes. '


John George Diefenbaker: The point I am endeavouring to make is this. Our producers in the northern parts of western Canada got out a great deal of lumber in the expectation of receiving a certain price under contracts which they had in the United States at that time. Now they are required to deliver that lumber to Canadian consumers in Canada at a considerably lower price than they were receiving on these United States contracts. The result is that many of our small operators are losing money on the sale of their lumber at the Canadian price, even taking into account the bonus that is given.
I have another question to ask the minister. Exceptions are made from time to time. I am not going to name the company unless the minister asks me to do so, but exceptions have been made. There is an exception made in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, where one large producer is permitted to export to the United States. I should like the minister to explain the basis upon which one company is given an export permit, while another company in the same position is denied the privilege of exporting to the United States and is required to sell to the Canadian market at a lower price.


James Angus MacKinnon: So far as my department is concerned I do not think that situation exists. I am familiar with the situation my hon. friend describes. I know that the producers to whom he refers in the northern parts of Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba were enjoying a lucrative market in the United States. But Canadian needs made it imperative that we stop these shipments to the United States. Recompense has been made in part to these producers, and their loss in part is consequent to the war and is accepted as such.


John George Diefenbaker: That still does not answer the question as to the basis upon which consideration is given to one company
4870	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
to make exports from Canada that is denied to others. I know the minister is very much interested in this problem because it is one which affects him, as it affects all members from western Canada. It has caused a great deal of difficulty in these areas of northern Saskatchewan I speak of now, where the export market made possible the production of a great deal of lumber on the basis of the prices which were contracted for. There is a great deal of lumber available in northern Saskatchewan-the same applies in Alberta and Manitoba-which could be got out if only the price were fixed at a level considerably higher than the present price.


James Angus MacKinnon: Labour is the real difficulty.


John George Diefenbaker: These lumber producers had certain definite commitments in the United States. The contracts permitted them to pay higher wages than otherwise would have been the case. Last fall the situation in Saskatchewan was this, that many of these smaller lumber producers were ordered to ship their lumber to wholesalers in Saskatchewan and Manitoba at a price considerably lower than the prices which the producers had contracted for in the United States. But the benefit did not pass to the consumer. The producers had a certain fixed price designated by the Department of Munitions and Supply, I assume, in cooperation with the Department of Trade and Commerce. They were directed to deliver lumber at such price to wholesalers in the western provinces, and the wholesaler in turn took that lumber, at a price of 834 including the freight, or of around $28 or $30 at the place of shipment, but the price paid by the consumer, the farmer who required lumber to build granaries and the like, was considerably in advance uf the price which was paid by the wholesaler.
My suggestion is this, that in order to induce and accelerate production of lumber, the producer should be allowed to sell to his own customers instead of being directed to sell through the medium of other wholesale concerns. In that way the producer would be induced by the extra price to produce more lumber than he is producing to-day, would be able to secure a fair profit, and the consumer would be assured of receiving lumber at a price considerably lower than now prevailing. I realize that there was a necessity for putting into effect an embargo against the shipment of lumber outside Canada by reason of needs within Canada, but I submit that in making that determination of policy the government

should have set a price so that the producer would be assured of a fair and reasonable profit, which is not the case to-day, I make a plea to the minister that consideration be given to increasing the price by increasing the bonus. There is any amount of lumber available; all that is required is a price which will assure the small producer of a profit, and I think the needs of western Canada, particularly for granaries for the crops this fall and for necessary defence projects, will be secured. But to follow the present policy will mean an ever-increasing shortage of lumber production, which is something we want to guard against at this time.
I should like the minister to explain the basis upon which the board determines that certain companies shall have the privilege of exporting whereas on the other hand others are denied that right.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
am not sure that the hon. member understands that the Department of Trade and Commerce in its handling of export permits is the machinery through which those permits are issued or refused. We handle them at the request of various other departments of government. Most of the hon. gentleman's argument is based, I think, on the reasons those departments have for asking us to put the export permit against those products. At the same time I have been in very close touch with the operation of this, and I would be greatly interested in hearing that any individual lumber producer in any of the western provinces or elsewhere in Canada has a preferred position in relation to any other. I shall be very glad to make inquiries of the department having to do with that.
I do not want to get into any long argument upon this, but I think the hon. gentleman was more or less advocating that there should be higher prices paid for lumber so that a higher wage scale could be paid.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He did not say that.


John George Diefenbaker: No-so that a profit will be returned to the producer which will accelerate production.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And compensate him for the lost contracts.


James Angus MacKinnon: As I have said, compensation is paid to a certain extent. I am quite aware of the fact stated by the hon. member for Lake Centre that the lumber producers are not satisfied with the bonus which has been given to them. I have heard from too many of them to have any

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
doubt about that. But I also am under the impression, and I am quite satisfied I am correct, that these producers can sell direct to retailers.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How large
is the bonus paid?


James Angus MacKinnon: It is not in my department, and I have not the figures under my hand.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think the item should stand until the minister gets the information.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think the item ought to stand until we have the information.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The minister has said that it is not in his department. He should not be expected to answer that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But this is an administrative item, and therefore every phase of the position is capable of being discussed under this item. If a bonus is being paid under this export system, information of the amount should be available under this item.


James Angus MacKinnon: I just want to reiterate what I have said: it is not a matter of this department at all, it is a matter of another department for which we are handling export permits.


John George Diefenbaker: I do not wish to be misunderstood as saying that they do not have the right to sell to consumers, but they have not the available methods of distribution, having no yards, and therefore are required by order to deliver to the distributing agencies.


Mr. LITTLE:: They can start a yard if they like.


John George Diefenbaker: Yes. They could
start a yard if they liked; that is true enough. Lumber companies in Ontario are allowed to export to the United States to-day, are they not? They have that right even at the present time, provided the lumber is going to users who are working on direct war orders. Why, then in view of the fact that Ontario producers of lumber have that right, have western Canadian producers of lumber not the same right? There is one lumber company in the province of Manitoba that has the right to export fire-killed lumber to the United States. I should like the minister to look into this matter. It is one that vitally affects many small operators in the northern parts of the three
western provinces. They ask why it is that they are denied the privilege, which to-day is extended to operators in the province of Ontario, of shipment to the United States.


James Angus MacKinnon: May I reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Camrose (Mr. Marshall). As far as my department is concerned, this branch carries itself. The total expenditure of the branch to March 31, 1943, was 899,842.11, and the total revenues for the same period were $139,727.53.


James Alexander Marshall: The minister stated
that the payment of the bonus on shipments of lumber to the United States was not a matter which concerned his department. Would this be the direct concern of the wartime prices and trade board operating under the Department of Finance?


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe the particular question under discussion has been a matter for munitions and supply.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian shipping board-
Adminisration, $92,435.
Revolving chartering fund, $500,000.
Total, $592,435.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this a
new item?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This requires a substantial explanation.


James Angus MacKinnon: The responsibility and functions of this board are to advise the government, or government departments concerned, on matters relating to war-time shipping; to ensure that the Canadian merchant marine is used to maximum efficiency in the war effort; to service and to control the movement of Canadian waterborne trade; and to administer its own regulations governing Canadian vessels; to work in cooperation with the United Kingdom ministry of transport and the United States war shipping administration; to ensure that neutral shipping shall operate as far as possible in the interests of the united nations. There is a revolving chartering fund in connection with the operations. The purpose of the vote is to provide a fund upon which the Canadian shipping board can draw for necessary war-time chartering operations in the national interest. The money is not actually expended but only loaned. It is returned to the government by payments for space et cetera.

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is
the set-up of the board which is to have this $500,000? Who is the head of the board? The minister's statement is a very general one dealing with principle; there are no details in it at all. What is the name of the board?


James Angus MacKinnon: The Canadian shipping board.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Who is the head of it?


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. MacCallum. He is an able and experienced man on loan from one of the shipping companies.


Thomas Reid: Does this board cooperate with the Park Steamship company who are chartering out to merchants or traders ships built by the Canadian government, and likewise loaning ships to Great Britain and operating, besides, twelve or fourteen ships for the Canadian government?


James Angus MacKinnon: This board handles the vessels to which the hon. member refers. Some of them are operated by the Park Steamship company and some by other agencies.


Ernest Edward Perley: Do they control shipping on the great lakes?


Percy Ellis Wright: Has this board anything to do with inland shipping on the great lakes?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Percy Ellis Wright: Will the minister give some idea of the situation with regard to the boats necessary for the movement of grain on the great lakes? At present there is a considerable demand for coarse grains in the United States, but apparently there is lack of shipping space. The other day the Minister of Agriculture stated in the house that there was a tremendous shortage of railroad cars for the movement of grain, and I was surprised at what I read in the evidence given before the special committee on reconstruction and reestablishment, on July 8, by Mr. Vaughan, chairman and president of the Canadian National Railways. In answer to a question with reference to this point he stated:
We can handle a lot more grain than is being offered. There was a time at the first when we were rather short of cars; but Mr. Walton attended several meetings on that and I think he can give you more information than I.
Mr. Walton then made this statement:
We attended the meetings of the grain committee of the cabinet and other meetings. The situation is this, that during the severe winter weather handlings were naturally cut down.

Ever since the cessation of bad weather we have been in a position to handle a considerably greater quantity of grain than has been rolling. Various causes contributed to it but as far as the railway position is concerned we can handle more than is being offered to us at the moment -I am speaking only for the Canadian National, of course.
Later on, Mr. Walton made this further statement:
But again there was a marked increase in the rail movement of feed grain to eastern Canada, of which we can handle any reasonable quantity they offer us.
We all know that the price of these grains in the United States is much above the Canadian price, and as a result of that a considerable premium is paid in the form of an equalization fee on these grains being shipped to the United States. In the Rural Cooperator of Tuesday, July 13, this statement appeared:
To-day the government is asking 34 cents per bushel for export permits on barley going to the United States, and 17 cents per bushel on oats. . . .
In view of the price the western farmer has been receiving for his coarse grain, below cost of production, the government should make every effort to see that this grain is moved at this time so that the premium may be obtained. The railway companies state that they have cars. Will the minister explain what the situation is on the great lakes as regards the movement of this grain? I am referring not only to the movement of grain to the United States, because large quantities of grain should be brought to eastern Canada for consumption this winter. There will be a scarcity of these grains, and if we have a severe winter, as we had last year, the railroads may find themselves unable to handle the grain. The shipping situation on the great lakes is of vital importance to the west. Apparently there is a shortage of bottoms. What are they being used for? Exactly what is the situation?


James Angus MacKinnon: The boats on the great lakes which in pre-war days handled wheat more or less exclusively to-day are handling munitions and war supplies, principally ore which they take to eastern points. The situation is being given careful attention by the people who are interested in moving coarse grains and wheat from the west to the east. Some time ago I saw statements which were made by the railway companies before one of the committees of this house to the effect that more grain could be carried by them, intimating they had cars available to carry more grain from western Canada. I immediately took up this matter with the wheat board in Winnipeg, who replied' expressing

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
their surprise that such statements should be made, since that was not their understanding, and as a matter of fact according to their information the car shortage remained1 very acute. I wrote to at least one of the railways, pointing out these facts and referring to the statement that had been made before the committee here, and I asked for an explanation.
I believe that letter went out only yesterday, and as yet there has not been time for a reply. The hon. member knows western Canada, and I am sure he realizes that there is a very great shortage of box cars there. At the present moment I believe there are, between the head of the lakes and western Canada, cars loaded with thirty million bushels of wheat. There has been delay in unloading those cars on account of an acute labour situation at the head of the lakes. Through the Department of Labour and other departments of government we have brought all possible pressure to bear on the situation, in an effort to take care of that bottleneck. Everyone recognizes the seriousness of it; everything possible is being done, yet we are not meeting with very' great success.


Ernest Edward Perley: I wanted to ask a question with regard to shipping on the great lakes and the control of the United States vessels engaged in that trade. I also wanted to know if this board had control over the rates charged, but when I asked whether this shipping board had any jurisdiction over lake shipping the minister said, no.


James Angus MacKinnon: I did not understand the question.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister said the shipping board had nothing to do with that matter, but then he allowed the hon. member for Melfort to bring it up again. So that I think he was just a little hasty in replying to me.


James Angus MacKinnon: I am very sorry; I just did not understand the hon. gentleman's question.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then would the minister tell us how many United States boats are taking wheat from Fort William at the present time?


James Angus MacKinnon: I cannot give that information.


Ernest Edward Perley: Has there been any increase in lake rates on grain carried by United States vessels from Fort William to United States ports, since the opening of navigation?


James Angus MacKinnon: I cannot give that information, either. I believe all these questions could be answered when my own estimates are brought down.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Minister has not the information before him?


James Angus MacKinnon: No.


Mr. POTTIER:: I understand that this board must either approve or disapprove when one of the defence departments desires to acquire a vessel; that is, the Canadian shipping board is asked to consent or otherwise when a vessel is chartered or acquired by one of the defence departments. It seems to me the board can be of great service in guarding the interests of the ship owners on the Atlantic coast, in particular, if it performs its duties as it should. I would suggest that before a vessel is either purchased or chartered, this board should go into the question very carefully, to see whether or not a boat cannot be built for the purpose, or obtained from some other source, so that commerce and trade will be disrupted as little as possible. We find that a boat may be acquired from an individual who has no other means of earning a livelihood. I urge the minister to make representations to the board so that careful attention may be given to these matters, with a view to causing as little disturbance as possible when boats are required by the defence departments.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall be glad to do that.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: The minister said that thirty million bushels of grain were loaded in cars because it was impossible to get labour to unload them. To me that is a serious matter, just when we are approaching another harvest; certainly it is going to be a tremendous worry to many western producers. I wonder if the minister would say what space is available for grain in the terminals, provided it can be unloaded from the cars. He might tell us also how long those cars have been loaded, either at Fort William or in transit. I think that would be useful information for the producers, who would like to know what they will be up against during harvest time.


James Angus MacKinnon: I am speaking from memory, but I think at the present time there is space for something like sixty to seventy million bushels. Within the last twenty-four hours permission has been secured from the proper authorities to increase the pay of the men who are doing this difficult and dirty job at the head of the lakes. Then we thought we might be able to get some
4874	COMMONS
War Appropriation*-Trade and Commerce
surplus labour from internal elevators throughout western Canada, and that position has been explored very thoroughly. As I stated, we have been in close contact with labour, asking for a high priority; we have had these units classed as war units, and have been doing everything possible to get the necessary labour. I quite realize that the situation is serious, as the hon. member for Souris has said, with another crop coming along in western Canada. I might add that only today I had further assurances, though they were not too definite, that the officials are hopeful that the whole quota can still be taken before the end of the crop year.


Mr. WOOD:: I shoud like to ask the minister a question in regard to these permits. The minister has said that the issuing of permits does not Come under his department, but as the hon. member for Melfort has suggested, the export of feed grain does come more or less under this department, and it seems to me we have two serious situations in Canada, both of which are aggravated by the shortage of shipping. We have an abundance of grain out west, which I am led to believe has been stored in the fields, while in Ontario and eastern Canada we have empty granaries, and the prospects are that there will be a crop only in Ontario. The farmers of this province have increased their live stock since the beginning of the war, and it is essential that a good deal of that grain be moved east. I know that will be a tremendous job, with the serious car shortage, but I feel that some effort must be made to work out a scheme under which the farmer in Ontario with the empty granary will be able to relieve the western farmer of his abundance which he cannot store. It seems to me essential that some shipping space be made available, or else both the farmer in the west with the surplus of grain and the farmer in the east with the abundance of live stock and an empty granary are going to lose. I do not think we can lightly pass over this problem;
I believe we must so direct our efforts and energy that we can relieve both these serious situations, or in other words kill two birds with one stone.
I should like to have something fairly definite on this, because I live in a live stock district, and I have received many inquiries from farmers who are very much worried over the prospect of this grain not coming to Ontario, in view of the fact that there is such a demand in the United States at a higher price. It is true that the farmers of eastern Canada are protected by the ceiling price. I noticed that the hon. member for Melfort quoted from the Rural Cooperator.
I brought along a copy of the same paper, 
from which I intended to read; then the hon. member went on to say that he was anxious to see the government make haste in order that the western farmer might get the benefit of the premium which is being offered. I want to tell the hon. gentleman that the eastern farmers are just as. anxious to get some benefit from that premium, too, because if that grain is to be brought here and fed to live stock, it is necessary that the eastern farmer be able to purchase it as cheaply as possible. We are prepared to share the benefit with the western farmer, but we do not want him to have all the benefit. I think some way should be worked out under which this benefit could be shared equally as between east and west.


Percy Ellis Wright: I was not saying anything against the eastern farmer getting the grain. As a matter of fact I was anxious that he should get it, and that is why I was asking that the shipping situation be investigated and more boats made available. Certainly it is a serious situation when twenty thousand of our railroad cars should be tied up because they cannot be unloaded. That is what it means, if we have thirty million bushels of grain in transit; twenty thousand railroad cars are tied up, storing grain, when they should be moving the grain to the head of the lakes. If it is the labour situation, selective service should certainly get some of these men who are at present working in non-essential industries, and put them where they would be doing something useful for the war effort. We have a labour department and a selective service organization in the dominion to attend to people engaged in non-essential industries, and it is time selective service got to work and used a little bit of compulsion to see that necessary things are done first.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbuiy):: I should
like to have a little more information with respect to this new departure of establishing a revolving fund of $500,000 for this Canadian shipping board. I assume that this is working capital for the board. Why is it necessary that government funds should be put up for this purpose? I venture to suggest it is the first time the government of the day has supplied working capital for chartering ships and carriers by water for domestic and foreign transportation. We know that all ocean transportation is under the control of the British ministry of shipping, so that of necessity the operations of this board must be confined to the domestic situation. I find it difficult to understand, although there may be good reason, the necessity for this new departure. Have we to charter United States bottoms to carry our goods on the great lakes, and is it

War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
a government movement that is being. carried in those vessels? If that were so, I could understand there would have to be a certain amount of working capital advanced through this department, or some other agency, to take care of that position. However, the minister did not make clear what the position was, and since this is a new vote involving a substantial sum I believe we ought to have some further explanation.
I wish to make sure that this evidence of working capital will come back to the treasury. That, to my mind, is important. If this is a business proposition, I would be in favour of it; but I should like to know something more about it.


James Angus MacKinnon: As I said, the money is used as a fund from which to draw when chartering vessels. At times when a vessel is chartered certain advances have to be made. That money is recovered by the carrying charge on the freight.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Out of
the freight?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister has been
talking about elevator space. Would he tell the committee what space is available in government terminal and other public terminal elevators, east of the great lakes? For instance, I am informed within the last week that the terminal at Prescott is practically empty. Why should that be?


James Angus MacKinnon: I
think we are getting pretty far afield. However, in answer to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle I would explain that I have been checking up recently on spare capacity or space in elevators in the east, and I am informed that whereas there has been a certain amount of space available recently, it is expected that this will be used very shortly, through the operations of the wheat board.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Shipping priorities committee-
Administration, $59,960.
Gift of wheat to Greece, $6,000,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Would
the minister explain these items?


James Angus MacKinnon: The work of this committee is to ensure that shipping supplies will be made available for essential war supplies, and that non-essential supplies will not take all available shipping space. This committee cooperates closely
with the controllers and administrators, and its work dovetails with the work of the Canadian shipping board.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This is a new agency, is it?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are these civil servants, or are they new men brought in to do the work?


James Angus MacKinnon: Trade commissioners are in charge.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This is being charged as a war appropriation, and not to civil estimates. Will there be a corresponding reduction in the civil estimates of the department?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes; that is correct.


Ernest Edward Perley: This item includes the
shipment of wheat to Greece. I understand the minister was at an eastern terminal recently celebrating the loading of a vessel. Would he inform the committee

*


James Angus MacKinnon: Are we considering that item?


Ernest Edward Perley: I understood the Chairman to read it.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I called the two together because, generally speaking, the lengthy discussion takes place on the administration item, and the shipment to Greece is rather, closely connected.


Ernest Edward Perley: Out of what crop year was the wheat taken? Was it from the 1940, 1941 or 1942 crop?


James Angus MacKinnon: I
am sorry I have not that information. Here again I do not wish to become involved in the discussion of a matter which might more properly be discussed at another time. However, I imagine the wheat board took it on the basis upon which they have been delivering grain, namely a percentage from one year, a percentage from another, and a percentage from another. As the hon. member knows, wheat is wheat, and a particular crop cannot be identified except as to quantity.


Ernest Edward Perley: If some of the 1939 or
prior crops, of which they have quite a surplus, were taken at the price indicated, it would make quite a difference. There would be a considerable difference if it were taken at last year's price.
4876	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Trade and Commerce
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): I believe it is well known that this gift of wheat has been made to relieve suffering and privation caused by the German invasion of Greece.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We understand that.
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): It is a free gift of 550,000 bushels of wheat per month to the people of Greece. To date these shipments total well over 5,000,000 bushels.


Mr. PBRLEY:: What will the total bushel-age be for the $6,000,000?
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): We are continuing to give Greece this quantity of wheat per month.


Ernest Edward Perley: Is the board taking up any of the options at this price in the open market?


Mr. FAIR:: What return will a wheat grower get from this $6,000,000 worth of wheat being sent to Greece?
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): The hon. member means those who have an interest in participation certificates.


Robert Fair: The actual grower of the wheat.
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): He will get the market price.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will he get the market price, or will he get the price which is allotted to the particular year, depending upon what wheat is shipped1? Are futures bought and filled out of this year's crop? What is the position?
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): This is a gift of wheat.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We all
know that. The minister does not need to tell us that again.
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): I am not in position to say from which crop this wheat will come, nor am I in position to say what price is agreed upon, but I have no doubt it is the proper price.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Of course that is not good enough.


Mr. DONNELLY:: When the wheat board officials were here they told us that in making shipments out of the country they took wheat from different years. They did not want to take it from one year because, if it were sold at a good price, that year would make a profit, but if it were sold at a loss, that year would make a loss. Therefore, in selling any

quantity of wheat they would allocate a certain amount to each year, so that each year will be suffering together or making a profit. I presume in making the shipment of S6,000,000 worth of wheat to Greece they will allocate a certain portion to each year and charge it up to the government accordingly.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that the position? I should like to have my information from the minister, and I say that with all respect for the hon. member for Wood Mountain (Mr. Donnelly) who probably knows more about it than the minister.
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): Quite possibly.


An hon. MEMBER:: He is doing pretty well.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister is not doing prettty well at all. The minister just knows that this is a gift of $6,000,000 worth of wheat; but where it comes from or where it goes to or from what crop it comes from or what price is being paid, the minister does not know any more about it than I do. I make that statement and I think I am pretty near within the mark.


James Arthur Ross: I do not think the question has been properly answered. While what the hon. member for Wood Mountain has said is the fact to some degree, the practice is to average the sales from the years from which the wheat is taken, and until settlement is made no one can say what the price will be.


James Alexander Marshall: Is this not a gift of wheat which will be shipped within the next twelve months?
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): This sum is to purchase wheat that will be shipped.


Percy Ellis Wright: Is it intended to limit the amount of wheat to be shipped to Greece to $6,000,000 worth or will the government continue to ship as long as there is a need and shipping space is available?
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): As long as shipping space is available and as long as we have the wheat to give, we will send 26,000 tons to Greece every month.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Shipping priorities committee-.
Steamship subsidies war stabilization fund, $500,000.
Mr. MaeKINNON (Edmonton West): It has been necessary to grant increased subsidies to various steamship companies in﻿JULY 15, 1943	4877
War Appropriation-Research Council
order to enable them to carry on under wartime conditions. Additional bonuses are paid in the operation of such services, namely, first, to provide for war bonuses to crews of vessels; second, war risk insurance on the vessels; and third, increased expenditures on fuel, marine insurance, et cetera. People who have contracts with the department which are expiring are coming to us with their audited statements to show that they cannot possibly carry on with their present contracts. This fund enables us to pay, after investigation, increased bonuses for the continuation of services where necessary.
Richard Burpee Hanson: It is just another bonus on account of the high cost of living and operation. Who is to get this $500,000?


James Angus MacKinnon: There will be different amounts to different people.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I suppose there will be; I do not suppose that one man will get it all, but the minister must have details in front of him of the various ship companies, local and otherwise, which will get this $500,000. We should like to know how it is to be allocated.


James Angus MacKinnon: I shall have that information available on my ordinary estimate.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister does not have it now?


James Angus MacKinnon: I have not.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The point is that this half million dollars is being taken out of the war appropriation instead of the civil estimates in order to carry on civil operations, the increased cost of which is on account of the war. Is that the right explanation?


James Angus MacKinnon: That is right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National research council-
Special war activities, $2,114,708.
James Angus MacKinnon: The reason for this item appearing in the war appropriation is obvious. There have been increased investigations on account of the war, and this vote is to permit the national research council to carry on investigations into war problems and to permit the expansion of investigations into certain problems which are now in progress. There is an item under
national research council in my ordinary estimates. I have been asked by many people, both inside and outside the house, for a more or less detailed report on the work of the national research council. That is a report which it is difficult for a layman to give; that is a report in the preparation of which great care must be taken because of the many war investigations and experiments that are being carried on by the national research council. Anticipating that there would be a great deal of information that hon. members would like to have, I have had a statement carefully prepared covering the operations of the council and it is my intention to ask the consent of the committee to place this on Hansard so that hon. members may have an opportunity to read and study it. Questions can be submitted when my ordinary estimates are up for consideration.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it very long?


James Angus MacKinnon: Yes, it is.


James Arthur Ross: I have asked for certain returns in this connection, and there is one in particular to which I should like to have an answer. This was in connection with the manufacture of synthetic rubber. I have never been able to obtain the exact comparison between the cost of using wheat alcohol and a petroleum base in the manufacture of synthetic rubber. If this information could be obtained, I think it would be most beneficial. A recent article was put out by the line elevators stating that this could be cut in half.


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe the information the hon. member for Souris is anxious to get will be found in what I am asking to be placed on Hansard. If it is not, the hon. member can tell me within the next day or so, and I shall be glad to see that it is prepared for him.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there
anything in the report with respect to alcohol produced from potatoes, which is a live question in my part of the country? You cannot have it all wheat and petroleum.


James Angus MacKinnon: I think the hon. member will find a comparison of figures in the report.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Then by unanimous leave of the committee shall the report be inserted in Hansard. Is that the pleasure of the committee? Carried.


James Angus MacKinnon: The report is as follows:

War Appropriation-Research Council
NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL Industrial Uses of Wheat
The possibility of using wheat for the production of war chemicals is a question which has often been raised and is a problem which has received a great deal of consideration. Alcohol has been produced from starchy materials for a very long time and the processes involved are well known. Production methods have been developed to the point where increased yields of alcohol per bushel of grain cannot be expected. However, improvement in manufacturing technique might slightly reduce conversion costs. Wheat yields alcohol in proportion to the amount of starch present, and in most Canadian varieties the maximum possible yield is in the neighbourhood of 2 gallons per bushel. Since the conversion cost is from 15 to 17 cents per gallon, it is evident that the total cost of producing alcohol from wheat is chiefly dependent on the initial price of the wheat. Therefore when wheat sells for 90 cents per bushel, the manufacturing cost of alcohol would not be less than
90 = 45 cents + 17 cents = 62c per gallon.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

War Appropriation-Post Office
Richard Burpee Hanson: The understanding is that all these matters may be reverted to when the minister's civil estimates come up, because we really require more information.


James Angus MacKinnon: So far as civil matters are concerned, but I do not think the hon. member would wish to discuss again purely war items.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should
like to have a break-down of some of these items. However, I know what will be done. About Friday or Saturday of next week, when everybody wants to get home, items will be railroaded through at the rate of a million a minute.


James Arthur Ross: I hope we are through before that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Perhaps
I am not optimistic enough. But I say that that practice is not good enough when we are dealing with expenditures taken from a tax-ridden people.



POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT

[Stage Direction]
Canadian postal corps, $183,020.
Robert Fair: I wish to ask a question in
regard to the men in uniform who comprise the Canadian postal corps. I have not all the details, but perhaps the minister would set the matter straight. I understand that a number of the corps are married men living in Ottawa and that they are compelled to live in tents at Lansdowne park. That does not seem like common sense to me because it requires a lot of extra help at Lansdowne park which might be put to some other useful purpose.


William Pate Mulock: This item amounting to $183,020
is made up as follows: temporary assistance, $8,280; cost-of-living bonus, $1,440; travelling expenses, $2,000; printing and stationery, $50,000; equipment and maintenance, $20,000; telegrams and telephones, $600; sundries, $100; mailbags for overseas mail, $100,000; contributions to unemployment insurance fund, $600. There is a decrease from last year of $11,720 in the salaries of these temporary employees. That is due to the fact that the field post offices have now all been placed on an active service basis, and it is therefore no longer necessary to provide an amount for temporary assistance.
The men in uniform in the postal corps to whom the hon. member for Battle River referred are part of the armed services of
Canada and have to carry out the orders given to them by the Department of National Defence just as men in any other branch of the armed services have to do.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are we
to understand that they were civilians and have been transferred to national defence?


William Pate Mulock: When the corps was set up it was necessary to open post offices in a hurry to give mail service to the troops in the camps, and we had to assign civilians from the different post offices throughout the country to get the service started. But now recruits have been trained in postal work and have joined the postal corps. They are active service men and have replaced the civilians.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They are
charged to the Post Office Department and paid out of the war appropriation?


William Pate Mulock: Yes; the civilians.


James J. Donnelly: Do some of these employees look after the mail in the internment camps?


William Pate Mulock: This is the army postal
service. When we started to set up the service men had to be trained in the work. In the meantime we had to provide a postal service for the different camps, and so we took civilian personnel from the different post offices across the country and put them in to get the service started. They proceeded to train men who had enlisted.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Men of
a lower physical category than Al?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


Robert Fair: Am I right in assuming that the Postmaster General has no control whatever over the men in uniform in the postal corps?


William Pate Mulock: Only so far as directing and looking after the distribution of mail is concerned. In every other respect, discipline, rationing and so forth, they are under the national defence department.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Post Office Department superintends their activities qua the post office.


James Alexander Marshall: Who is the officer in
charge?


William Pate Mulock: Colonel E. J. Underwood. He is at present in England.


James Alexander Marshall: Who is in charge of the postal corps in the dominion? Somebody must be in charge in his absence.

War Appropriation-Post Office


William Pate Mulock: Colonel Underwood was sent over to carry out certain duties. Preparations were made well in advance. He is in charge of the personnel of the corps whether they are stationed in England, Canada, North Africa or anywhere else. The man who is permanently in charge of the postal corps in England is Lieutenant-Colonel Ross.


James Alexander Marshall: And in Canada?


William Pate Mulock: Colonel Underwood.


James Arthur Ross: Who is in charge when he is away in England?


James Alexander Marshall: That is what I was trying to get. Who carries out his duties in his absence?


William Pate Mulock: Captain Warwick.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: Is the minister prepared to make any statement as to the better handling of mail for overseas?


William Pate Mulock: Yes.


Percy Chapman Black: 
William Pate Mulock: I think the hon. member
will realize the nature of our transportation difficulty. Our space is allotted to us. We cannot say we are going to occupy so many cubic feet on board a ship or that we are going to put on board so many thousand bags of mail. Space is made available to us and we have to take the space which is allotted and when it is allotted. I think the hon. member will realize what a strain is put upon shipping owing to the African campaign and, now, the operations in Sicily, and that this is bound to slow up the mails at times. But it is purely a question of shipping. We can get the mail to the ports, but we have to wait until there is some ship to put it on. Often we can ship only part of the mail which is available or has been posted on the same day; the rest has to wait until there is space available.


Percy Chapman Black: Is this not a correct statement, that for a considerable time -I hope they are not doing it now-the Post Office Department accepted mail to go by air when there were no facilities to convey it by air, and that their so doing really amounted to a deception as far as the senders

of that mail were concerned; they had paid for and consigned it as airmail and the department accepted it as such, though during a considerable period it had not the facilities to convey it by air. That was a justifiable grievance on the part of the senders in this country and of those in the forces overseas.


William Pate Mulock: I agree in part, but not
fully, with what the hon. member has said. He is talking about the thirty cents?


Percy Chapman Black: The thirty
cents, and the ten-cent airmail as well.


William Pate Mulock: There was not much of
that. He is wrong in saying that there were no facilities; there were, but not sufficient to take care of the demand. When it was found that the volume could not be handled, notices were sent out and postmasters told to discourage the use of the thirty-cent airmail. We could not tell people that they could not send it that way, because some could go.


Percy Chapman Black: The public were not advised, though?


William Pate Mulock: Oh, yes.


Percy Chapman Black: The people
who were sending the mail?


William Pate Mulock: Not as individuals, but
they were advised through the press.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is much of this mail
lost crossing the seas, through the torpedoing of ships?


William Pate Mulock: In the calendar year 1942
we dispatched 14,536 bags of letters, made up of 20,116,360 items, having a weight of 502,909 pounds. The loss owing to enemy action was sixty-five bags of mail.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Very
small.


William Pate Mulock: Those are letters-made up of 2,577 items, sixty-four pounds in weight. Of registered mail sent overseas, 43,687 items were dispatched, and only fifty-six lost.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Fifty-six items?


William Pate Mulock: Fifty-six items. Of news, 40,120 bags were dispatched, and 496 lost through enemy action.


Richard Burpee Hanson: A little over one per cent.


William Pate Mulock: Parcel post, 295,911 bags
dispatched, and 3,187 were lost owing to enemy action. Tobacco parcels, 125,017 bags dispatched, and 3,109 lost.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is a remarkable
tribute to our naval and air services that such a small amount of mail matter was lost through enemy action.

War Appropriation-Post Office


Richard Burpee Hanson: The department announced some time ago, if I recollect correctly, that a real Canadian airmail service was about to be established. What progress has been made with that?


William Pate Mulock: The service has commenced. The ship has made one westbound trip, but as yet it has not yet completed the round trip.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Just beginning.


William Pate Mulock: Just beginning.


James Arthur Ross: Following the question by the hon. member for Cumberland, I had a return brought down on February 16 along the same line, and it shows that last October thirty per cent of airmail letters went by boat, and thirty-four per cent of the Christmas airmail-ings in December went by boat. I wonder if the minister would be able to state the amount of additional revenue paid by the public on the difference between airmail transported by boat and the ordinary postage rate. I should think it would amount to quite a considerable sum of money.


William Pate Mulock: I know the hon. member will appreciate that at that time of year flying conditions are sometimes very difficult-


James Arthur Ross: I realize that.


William Pate Mulock: -and the planes just cannot go, and airmailings have to wait till the planes can fly. As I stated at the time, a very large accumulation was built up, but it was cleared as quickly as possible. The amount was abnormal and we ran into bad flying weather. The system is greatly improved. But during that time, if I remember correctly, every airgraph message was sent by air; none was sent by surface. I do not think any airgraph message has ever been sent by surface, and perhaps we are the only country in the world which can say that.


James Arthur Ross: Perhaps it was as a result of this that you had the public switch to airgraph. You sent out advices to the public to switch completely to airgraph as a result of this.


William Pate Mulock: We can send so many more messages by airgraph than by any other form of transit. Even the armed forces air letter takes up more space than the airgraph. I might say that we are bringing out a new form, which is airgraph, but which resembles the armed forces air letter. It is on paper so that, if necessary, it can be turned into an airgraph to avoid delays. If it can be handled as 72537-3094
air letter in its ordinary form, it will go that way. I think the hon. member for Souris will understand the importance of that.


James Arthur Ross: Yes.


William Pate Mulock: We might be able to get sufficient transport from here to Great Britain, but from Britain to some other theatre of war we might be able to move it only in small amounts as far as space and weight are concerned, and that we might have to turn letters into airgraphs to get them the rest of the way.


James Arthur Ross: From that point on.


Percy Chapman Black: I think we
realize that the minister's department have done the very best they can, and probably under the circumstances they have given splendid service. On the other hand there was a great deal of dissatisfaction and justification for this dissatisfaction. I should like some further information from the minister.
As I understand it, there are three classes of airmail communications; one is the regular thirty-cent airmail letter; another is the ten-cent airmail letter, and the other is the airgraph letter. Would the minister inform the committee for how long a period at any time such letters were held by the Post Office Department for aeroplane service, and in what instances and to what extent such letters were transferred from aeroplanes to be conveyed by ships. There must be some more explanation than the minister has given as to why airgraph and airmail letters, the ten-cent letters, are delayed for at least ten weeks. I should like to know whether in every case such letters went by aeroplane, or were assembled and then went by ordinary mail by steamer.


William Pate Mulock: I am glad the hon. member has brought that up. As I mentioned once before in the house, while we try to do everything we can to expedite mail coming from Great Britain to Canada, we are not responsible; the British government are. We cannot handle that mail until it arrives at a Canadian port.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon. member is not talking about that movement.


Percy Chapman Black: I am referring to mail from Canadians to overseas forces.


William Pate Mulock: I will give that information. At present, as far as armed forces' air letters are concerned, there is virtually a daily service by air. That is in effect now, subject of course to weather conditions.

War Appropriation-Post Office


Percy Chapman Black: I am asking what is the longest period air mail letters were held by the postal department before they were provided with conveyance overseas to our forces and whether such letters were finally conveyed by steamer or by aeroplane.


William Pate Mulock: Is the hon. member referring to the ordinary air letter, the thirty-cent letter, or armed forces letters?


Percy Chapman Black: The ten-cent armed forces letters. There was notification with respect to the thirty-cent letter, but there was none with respect to the ten-cent letter.


William Pate Mulock: That is correct. I have not that return. The hon. member for Souris asked for that information and a return was brought down. He referred to that a few moments ago. We gave the amount at that time when he inquired as to what delay there had been in connection with airgraph and armed forces letters, the percentage and so on. It was given then by months and amounts. That information is available on the records.


Percy Chapman Black: Will the
minister answer this direct question? In any instance was such mail, after having been held up by the Post Office Department, conveyed by steamer rather than by aeroplane?


William Pate Mulock: Yes; there was a small amount. It is shown in that return. It could not be handled. It would have held up other air letters for a long time on account of the accumulation that had been built up owing to bad flying weather. The planes were not moving in sufficient numbers to handle it, and for days the letters were delayed.


Percy Chapman Black: How long were such letters delayed and finally conveyed by aeroplane?


William Pate Mulock: My officials advise me that the longest period was ten days.


Percy Chapman Black: I repeat what I have already said. Many people in the armed services did not get their mail for at least ten weeks, and there have also been periods when residents in Canada did not get mail that was sent by those in the armed services in Great Britain for ten weeks or perhaps longer.


William Pate Mulock: As regards the latter part of the hon. member's statement, I have also dealt with that. The Postmaster General of Great Britain advised me of their difficulty and of the accumulation they had on hand. I discussed the whole matter with him last September when I was in England. Their

difficulty was this. A substantial number of planes were going to Britain, but there were not nearly as many coming back this way. Space had to be reserved on the planes to bring back aircrew to ferry more planes back across the Atlantic, and space was not available to the extent that the Postmaster General of Great Britain required.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But that is east to west.


William Pate Mulock: The hon. member mentioned east to west also.


Percy Chapman Black: The minister's statement is that there was better service from Canada to Great Britain than from Great Britain to Canada. I should like to get some further information. What service does the department now undertake to give in connection with different classes of air mail: thirty cents, ten cents and airgraph mail? In what time does the department undertake to deliver such communications in Great Britain? I do not say distribute them in Great Britain, but when does it undertake to deliver them in Great Britain, as far as our service is concerned, so that they may be distributed there?


William Pate Mulock: I presume the hon. member is still talking about air.


Percy Chapman Black: Yes; the three classes of air mail communications.


William Pate Mulock: As far as airgraph is concerned, weather permitting, it goes daily. It is a comparatively new service. At the beginning, for west-bound airgraphs, we did not have the processing equipment in Canada, and our messages had to be sent to the United States to be processed. They were processed with the American messages in the proportion the number of ours bore to the number of the American messages coming in. If they had a large mail, our processing might be held up for some days, and there was also the additional time of sending it down and getting it back. I am glad to say that now they are processed in Toronto. We managed to get the service performed there, and that has speeded things up considerably, not only for the messages being turned into airgraph on this side but for those processed on receipt from Great Britain or other parts of the world. As regards armed forces air letters, they are going every day subject to weather conditions. As regards the thirty-cent letters, they are going five times monthly.


Percy Chapman Black: The minister said a short time ago that an improved service was being put into effect by his department. Is he prepared to give further information in that regard?

War Appropriation-Secretary oj State


William Pate Mulock: Perhaps the hon. member is referring to the statement made by the Minister of Munitions and Supply when he announced the new service being operated by a department of government. We are making use of that.


Percy Chapman Black: The postal service uses that?


William Pate Mulock: We use that. At least, we have used it westbound. As a matter of fact, we have brought ordinary mail from the troops back on that. We will speed matters up as far as we can. I cannot say we will handle all mail coming back that way, but we will handle as much as there is space available for.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that
Trans-Canada?


William Pate Mulock: Yes, Trans-Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department generally, $39,950.
Richard Burpee Hanson: What is
the necessity of this?


Norman Alexander McLarty: In a sense this is to pay for the added staff of the bureau of translations. There is one justification for its being here, namely, that the translators are used by the war departments, but that is not the reason for it. The reason . is that all this has happened since the estimates were made up last fall, and consequently next year it will not appear in the war estimates at all, but will be a civil estimate.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is
really a civil estimate, but you tucked it in here in order to get it through?


Norman Alexander McLarty: That is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Commission re revocation of naturalization certificates, $5,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: I am a
little curious about this item.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I think I can explain it.
During the war a great many allegations are made against citizens of Canada who had their origin in enemy countries, to the effect that they are disloyal to the king or disaffected or something else of that kind. Under the Naturalization Act they have the right to have their case heard by a commission before it is acted upon by the Secretary of State. The commissioners under this are Mr. Justice Robson of the court of appeal of Manitoba, Mr. Lee
Kelley of Ottawa and Mr. Aldous Aylen, also of Ottawa. They serve entirely without remuneration. Last year the vote was $10,000; this year it has been cut in half, to $5,000, and the only purpose of the vote is to cover expenses. For example, a great many of these allegations come from various internment camps and other parts of Canada from which the applicant could not possibly come to Ottawa. Consequently, as occasion requires and as the number of cases becomes large enough, the commission visits them at those points and then makes recommendations to the Secretary of State.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This is
just for travelling expenses, then?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am
wondering how many naturalization certificates have been revoked, if the minister has that information.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Not many under this
provision. There have been quite a few revocations of naturalization papers since the beginning of the war, and one reason for that is that the United States made a complete survey of the citizenship of all its citizens. When it found, for instance, that a person had been naturalized in Canada and had not taken out his papers in the United States, though he might have lived there for quite a number of years, they would notify the naturalization branch to that effect. We would write the person concerned asking if he was prepared to have his naturalization certificate cancelled. I think in all cases it was upon notice, and in the majority of cases they did not even reply. In other cases they said they wished to have their certificates cancelled. I do not think there have been many cancellations of naturalization by this commission, and of course this vote is purely a contingency vote, depending upon the number of applications that are made.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask by whom
the commissioners are appointed?


Norman Alexander McLarty: By the Secretary of State.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are they yearly appointments?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I speak from memory,
but my impression is that they are.


John Ritchie MacNicol: At how much per day,
or what salary and what allowances?


Norman Alexander McLarty: There is no salary and
no per diem; it is merely their actual out-ofpocket expenses, which consist largely of travelling expenses.
4892	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Secretary oj State


John Ritchie MacNicol: It certainly is pleasant
to hear that in war time somebody is willing to work for the country for nothing.
Mr. H.AZEN: Can the minister say how many cases were heard last year?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I know there were no cases at all heard outside the city of Ottawa, and I do not think there were many cases heard even in Ottawa. Of course as I say this is a contingency vote. The only cases heard would be those of people notified that their naturalization was to be cancelled on such and such an allegation. Then they would be notified that if they wished to do so, they could elect to have a hearing before the commission in connection with their cases. I am sorry I cannot advise the hon. member as to the number. When the vote in the civil estimates is under consideration I shall be glad to give him that information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: When
that vote comes up, would the minister be good enough to make a statement on the naturalization position, that is with respect to applications for naturalization. I remember inquiring of the previous Secretary of State, and I believe we should know just what that position is..


Norman Alexander McLarty: I shall be very glad to do so.


Major James William Coldwell: At the same time would the minister make some statement on the position of persons who leave this country, go to the United States and there take out their first papers. The oath that is taken in the United States when a foreigner takes out his papers is that he definitely foreswears allegiance to His Majesty King George VI, his heirs and successors. That would seem to be a foreswearing of Canadian citizenship, and I am not sure just what the position is. I have been asked on occasion what is the position of such a person, and perhaps the Secretary of State can tell me.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I think I might answer that question immediately. In that case the United States authorities advise the naturalization branch of what has occurred. We proceed to notify the person concerned that unless he has some reason to allege against it- and it is hard to imagine what it could be- we will revoke his naturalization certificate.


Major James William Coldwell: You do that?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: In the
meantime he is a man without citizenship.


Norman Alexander McLarty: He has made his application in the United States.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But he does not lose his citizenship here until he completes the papers which are required by the country in which he takes them out.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Quite true.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil service commission-
Supply of personnel for wrar services, $597,443.
John Ritchie MacNicol: The appointments made by the civil service commission under this item will not be permanent appointments, I presume, or for more than the duration of the war?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Some of them may turn out to be permanent, but I think they are appointments to war departments and consequently, for the time being at least, they would be temporary.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understood that all these people were notified that their appointments were purely temporary.


Norman Alexander McLarty: That is correct.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And they could only take their chance of becoming permanent after the war, as occasion might arise. This is a large sum of money, and perhaps the minister could give us a little more explanation about it.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I shall be glad to give the break-down. In the matter of salaries, $405,460 is provided. The amount voted last year, including the supplementary estimates, was $300,000, so that in that regard there is an increase of $105,360. In connection with war duties supplements there is a net increase of $300. For the cost of living bonus, $59,263 is provided as against $40,000 last year, or an increase of $19,263. For printing and stationery, this year $30,000 as against $35,000 last year, or a reduction of $5,000. For the cost of holding examinations, $22,000 this year as against $20,000 last year, an increase of $2,000. For sundries and miscellaneous, $21,000 and for travelling expenses $41,000, a total of $62,000 as against $65,300 last year, or a reduction of $3,300. Contribution to unemployment insurance fund, $5,520, which is a net increase over last year. Minimum railway fares, $13,000 this year as against $16,700 last year, or a reduction of $3,700. The total of all increases is $132,443 and of all decreases $12,000, or a net increase of $120,443. I might just supplement that with a little information which I think the committee might find interesting. To show the

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
tremendous development the war has entailed, may I quote the figures supplied to me. In 1938 the commission made 6,406 appointments to the public service; in 1941, they made 31,061 and in 1942, 48,000. I am advised that that figure of 48,000 is running on a pretty even keel at the present time.
I give them to show the tremendous growth.


Richard Burpee Hanson: About
4,000	new appointments a month.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Correct.


Major James William Coldwell: That is gross, of course. What would be the net increase?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I cannot advise the committee as to what the net is, but I shall get the figure when the civil estimates are before the committee. But it does not matter whether it is gross or net, as far as the work to be done is concerned.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How
many employees were in the civil service commission branch before the war, and what is the total to-day?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I shall have to give that information too, when the civil estimates are being considered.
t Mr. MaCNICOL:	Is there a quorum in
the committee?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Yes, a big quorum.


John Ritchie MacNicol: No; I count only
nineteen.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I find there is just a
quorum present.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How
many government members in the house?


Major James William Coldwell: Six.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Not many in quantity, but the quality is high.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there is a quorum.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There will not be one, if the minister leaves the chamber.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I can count only nineteen.


James Arthur Ross: A lot of the cream is here, anyway.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mines and geology branch-to provide for development work to be undertaken by Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada Limited, in connection with tarsands located in the province of Alberta, $150,000.
Major James William Coldwell: Will the minister explain the item?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does this vote cover an amount spent this year, in addition to what was spent last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This covers an expenditure that was initiated in the Department of Munitions and Supply, I believe on the recommendation of the oil controller, something over a year ago. Under the arrangements made, an agreement was entered into with the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company to do certain work in connection with drilling, and for the purpose of determining the extent of the tar sands and their quality. It also covered certain expenses in connection with laboratory work carried on to ascertain the best methods of treatment of sands, or the bitumen recovered from the sands. The total amount paid under the agreement up to March 31 last year was $1,234.15. This amount is to reimburse the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company for the expenditures it incurred under that agreement. It will be payable during the current year. That is why the item appears.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sorry this work was not undertaken by the tried, trained and experienced men of the Department of Mines and Resources. They were more competent than any other engineers in Canada to do this work of investigating tar sands. They have made investigations along these lines for many years. I repeat that the minister's own engineers were best qualified. They have been doing it, and I am as sure as I am standing here they would have done it for less than the amount mentioned in the item. I cannot understand why outside engineers were sent to do what the minister's own engineers were best qualified to do.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work was undertaken at cost by the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company; that is, they did not plan to make a profit out of it. I suppose one might say it was a contribution from their experience and knowledge.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Of what?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A knowledge which, apparently the hon. member for Davenport questions. At any rate that was the idea when the arrangement was made with the company. May I add that this arrangement was not made by the Department of Mines and Resources, but rather by the Department of Munitions and Supply on the recommendation of the oil controller. The work of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company has terminated.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is now ended?
4894	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In effect, it is terminated. The current work is not being conducted by that company. This estimate is required to pay the company for the work which to a great extent was done last year, but which was not paid for by the end of the fiscal year. It is also for the completion of some tests being made under their supervision.


Major James William Coldwell: By whom is the current work being done?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That was all set out in a document tabled in the house some weeks ago. It is being carried out under an agreement between the Department of Mines and Resources and a company known as the Abasand company at Waterways in northern Alberta. The terms of the agreement are set out in the return tabled' in the house. The work will really be under the direction of the Department of Mines and Resources from the time of the agreement, on. The agreement contains provisions not only for the operation of the work, but also for the liquidation of the agreement when it is terminated. If I recall correctly, termination is to be six months after the declaration by the government that a state of war with the enemy has ceased.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would not want either the minister or the committee to infer from anything I said that I have not the highest opinion of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company, because I have. They are a fine company, and they have splendid engineers. But I was perfectly satisfied with the departmental engineers. They have been in the field for some thirty years and have rendered excellent service. They made a thorough investigation for the department, if the department pamphlets are correct, and I believe they are. I have been over this area on several occasions and I know what the departmental engineers have done. They were competent and did splendid work, and I feel that this work should have been done by the mines and resources department. This is no reflection upon the Consolidated, but I feel that the department should have done this work because their men knew where to go and just what to do. They had the equipment, which the Consolidated did not have when they started. I presume that is why this account is so high. I doubt if the department would have spent 8150,000; they might have spent up to $50,000 or more. It all goes to show that there was not the cooperation there should have been between these two departments of government.

The munitions department sent in outside engineers, and I feel that they should have asked the Department of Mines and Resources to send in their engineers. They were thoroughly qualified; in fact there are none better qualified in North America to carry on tar sand investigations. It is too bad that the munitions department did not ask the Department of Mines and Resources to send its men out there to make inquiry.


Major James William Coldwell: Could the minister give us any idea as to how this work is progressing? The agreement has been in effect for several months, and I should like to know what success the company is having.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before the minister answers, I should like to make one observation. The wording of this item does not correspond with the ministers' statement. He said that this was to cover work that had been done already, but the item reads that it is to provide for development work to be undertaken. The two statements do not quit jibe. Is this a new undertaking, or is it a continuation of a previous undertaking?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The point raised by my hon. friend is quite pertinent, but the facts are as I have stated. The estimate may not be as well worded as it might have been.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We have to take it as it is.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A great deal of expense was incurred last year which this vote is to cover. There are also continuing expenditures to be made for experimental work. The Consolidated Mining and Smelting company arranged for this work with two concerns in the United States, one in Chicago and one in Louisiana.
The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar wanted some particulars as to how the work is progressing. This agreement was entered into a few months ago-I have not the precise date-with the Abasand company which was operating in the Waterways area. Abasand had been conducting operations largely of an experimental nature for some years past, but as their work progressed they found that changes were necessary in their plant and equipment. An arrangement was entered into between the government and the Abasand company which gave the government complete control of the operation. In fact the department takes over temporarily the assets of the Abasand company.
It is estimated that about $300,000 will be required to remodel the buildings and plant and equipment of the Abasand company. There will be drilling operations to be carried

War Appropriation-
-Mines and Resources
on as well as experimental work in the plant when it is rebuilt or revamped. Work will also have to be carried on to determine the best method of treating the bitumen when it is recovered from the sands. There is a great deal of experimental work to be done in this regard. It is definitely known now that excellent road-building material can be secured from this bitumen. It is known also that certain heavy oils can be secured, but I am informed that there is a great deal of testing work to be carried on in order that gasoline of sufficiently high quality to be of commercial value may be extracted from the sands. This work will be carried out under the agreement.
The agreement provides that within six months after the declaration of peace or the ending of a state of war the government shall have the option of buying out any equity that Abasand may still have in the plant. If there are differences of opinion provision is made that these shall be referred to the exchequer court. On the other hand, if the government does not care to exercise this option the property will be returned to the Abasand company, which will have to reimburse tlie government, not only for the moneys advanced to cover operating expense but also for any losses that have been incurred, with a rate of interest of 3J per cent on the money so advanced. I think those are the essential points of the agreement.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The next item of $500,000 would cover the revamping of the plant?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That has nothing to do with the Abasand agreement.


John Ritchie MacNicol: There is no item here that pertains to the revamping of the plant.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It was impossible to determine any definite amount, because the whole thing is really of an experimental nature. The funds required for the carrying out of the Abasand agreement will be available from the general war appropriation vote.


John Ritchie MacNicol: This vote has nothing to do with that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not with the Abasand
agreement.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Abasand in the agreement merely means the government. The government is operating the plant under certain gentlemen who were associated with Canadian Oils Limited.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is entirely under the control of the government.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is there any private capital in it at all? Is there any equity to be bought?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Oh, yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Who has control of that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not definite knowledge as to where the capital originated on which Abasand operates.


Major James William Coldwell: How much private
capital is there in the Abasand company?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know. They state they have spent $900,000 on development. We do not reimburse them for that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: According to the minister, if it turns out to be successful, they have a chance to recoup that $900,000 or whatever it is.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not all of it, because part of it will be operating losses.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You do not undertake to provide anything for that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: When the matter was up previously, the Minister of Munitions and Supply, speaking about the work that had been done by the Abasand company; mentioned the hydrogenation system for the extraction of the oil from the bitumen. It is quite easy to get the bitumen out, but the difficulty has been to get the oil out of the bitumen. The money that is to be spent by Abasand is not to be spent on a hydrogenation system, because that would cost a great deal of money. I am in favour of that system. If the next vote has nothing to do with that plant, I have nothing more to say at the moment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch-
Investigations of petroliferous deposits and of potential petroliferous areas in Canada, $500,000.
Percy Ellis Wright: In the early part of the session I placed questions on the order paper with regard to oil deposits at Fort Norman and the pipeline constructed from there to White Horse. The minister asked me to take the questions off the order paper because it was not in the public interest to answer them. But within a very short time afterwards I found information in certain United States papers which answered many of the questions I had asked, especially those related to the pipeline. I believe that since then certain

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War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
documents have been tabled in this house giving details with respect to the pipeline and the arrangements made for its return to Canada after the war. But we have never had a statement from the minister with respect to the oil deposits at Fort Norman, informing us how much money has been spent there, whether the dominion government or the Imperial Oil company is drilling wells, or what companies are interested in that field. From information we have received from other sources it is apparent that this field may develop into one of the larger oil deposits in Canada, if not on the north American continent. The minister should make a full statement on the situation, as to who is making the development and under what conditions, and how much is being spent by the government and how much by private companies.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With regard to the questions which my hon. friend put on the order paper a few months ago, as I recall it -now, we were not in a position to give the information asked for at that time as a result of an understanding with the United States authorities.


Percy Ellis Wright: They published the information themselves within a few days.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not a few days, but the
information was given out at Washington some time later. It was their option to give out or withhold the information.


Percy Ellis Wright: Has Washington the authority to issue statements with respect to our own resources. It is a serious state of affairs if that is so. It seems to me that we should have the authority.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is getting the thing all twisted and distorted.


Percy Ellis Wright: I have not got it twisted at all.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There was an understanding reached with the United States government concerning the Canol project, with respect to which a statement was made by the Prime Minister the other day. Certain drilling operations were carried on there for which the United States government, I understand, although I have no definite assurance on this, provided the capital. This whole development was to ensure a supply of oil for defence purposes, and since the United States government were carrying on this project we respected their wishes that publicity should not be given to it. That is why my hon. friend's question could not be answered at the time he asked it. This federal government has

not spent one dollar in development work at Fort Norman. There is not a dollar in these estimates or in the estimates of last year for that development. What we did do was to give the Imperial Oil company permits to drill for oil over a certain area. The Imperial Oil company already had leases at Fort Norman, obtained many years ago.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And had wells operating,
too.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And already had a few wells there producing oil, as well as a small refinery. There was a certain amount of fuel oil produced, and I believe some gasoline, at that refinery. I happen to know that the mining operations at Great Bear lake, where radium is produced, were carried on by means of power from diesel engines run by fuel secured from these Fort Norman wells. It was known there was oil there. The United States wished to make certain of an additional supply of oil and gasoline for war purposes and their geologists and engineers examined the territory. I do not know just what arrangements they made with Imperial Oil company. That was no particular concern of ours. We gave the Imperial Oil company some additional territory under permits. They had an area under lease there for their old development, and additional wells are being drilled. I understand that enough oil is being secured to justify the building of the pipeline. Let me repeat, that these permits were given for the purpose of finding sufficient oil to pipe to WThite Horse and from White Horse on to the defensive works in Alaska.


Percy Ellis Wright: Will the minister table information on the areas and the concessions that have been given to the Imperial Oil company?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have drafted a set of regulations, which have been tabled, covering the granting of permits for oil in the Northwest Territories. The permits have been issued to the company going in there to drill. We have not encouraged; we have discouraged what might be called purely speculative interests; that is, people who might think there was oil up in that country and would reserve a certain area, pay a ground rental on it for a year, and then try to sell it off to someone else who would develop it. We have discouraged that.


Percy Ellis Wright: And given it to one
company.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have given permits to responsible people who would go in there and develop it. There is no use in giving a permit, for instance, to some person who

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
would go in and use it for speculative purposes. After all, the government were not prepared to do the drilling there. There is not much prospect, I can assure my hon. friend, of developing oil at Fort Norman for uses other than those involved in this increased development for defence purposes, which is costing a considerable amount of money per gallon of oil when it is delivered, and for such operations as there are at Bear lake. It is not an economic proposition at the present time to develop an oil well at Fort Norman, 1,400 miles north of Edmonton. How would you get the oil to Edmonton, for instance, where it could be used? When you had got it out, transportation would cost so much that it could not for a second compete with oil from other sources. Unquestionably this development was stimulated by the state of war which existed with Japan and the need of getting oil supplies to the Alaskan frontier. That is the whole reason for this increased development. It is quite true that the government might have said, "No; because it is the Imperial Oil company we will not have anything to do with it," and we would have blocked the war effort, and that would have been that. I do not think there could be any justification for the dominion government going into an oil development 1,400 miles north of Edmonton, that might cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, for uses in ordinary times.


Percy Ellis Wright: The minister has stated that the dominion has turned over these deposits to one company to develop. None of us is quite naive enough to believe that this one company are in there for their health; that they are not getting anything out of these deposits; that they are simply developing it for war purposes without any chance of ever making anything out of it. They are certainly getting their share out of it, or they would not have developed it, and they are given a monopoly as far as this development is concerned. Whether it is economic or not depends on how much oil is there. In the United States oil is being transported great distances, from Oklahoma, near the gulf, right up to the northern states. It depends on the quantity of oil that is in the field, and if reports we hear are correct this may be a very important field. I certainly do not think the government are doing what is right in giving the company a complete monopoly of that field.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend, of course, is quite entitled to his view; there is no doubt about that. As a matter of fact, as a purely commercial proposition you would not get 72537-3104
one oil company in ten to look at that field. I venture to say that the Imperial Oil Company have spent more money there by a long margin than they have recovered, or will recover for a good many years. That is for the simple reason that, as I stated a moment ago, it is not feasible commercially to take oil even in the quantities they have, at Fort Norman, 1,400 miles north of Edmonton, to the places where it can be used. The United States government in respect of its interest in this development asked that the permits be granted to the Imperial Oil company. Under the permits, when the war is over, we have the right to have half the area they have prospected and developed come back to the government, including half the wells and half the equipment. When my hon. friends of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation come into office, as they hope to do some day, they may find this all ready for operation by then.


Percy Ellis Wright: They will find it tied up
pretty well by one particular company. The minister's statement hardly holds water. In one breath he tells us he has to give it to one company to prevent speculators going in-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not say anything of
the kind.


Percy Ellis Wright: Oh, yes, you did.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I said that the Imperial
Oil company were in there years ago; that they had developed certain works at Fort Norman, and that when this idea developed for the supply of oil and gasoline for Alaskan defence, the United States government asked that the Imperial Oil, who had had experience in the field, be given some .additional territory, and that additional territory was given under terms which I mentioned1 a moment ago, that when the war is over, the government secures, without cost one-half the development which has taken place. What my hon. friend was speaking about a moment ago, as to permits being issued, did not refer, as I understood it, to the Imperial Oil company. We could have to-day numerous speculative interests, who probably are not oil developers at all, to go in and, if we gave them a permit, preempt a certain territory in the hope that later on they could turn it over at a profit to someone who would develop it. Now we have effectively prevented that sort of thing.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Perhaps I can set the
matter straight. I mentioned the subject a short time ago. I have not any brief for the Imperial Oil, but I commend them for what they have done in that part of the country.
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War Appropriation-Mines and Resources
They went in there quite a few years ago, and got nothing out of it commensurate with what they invested in it. They deserve credit for drilling wells at Fort Norman. I believe that" up to the time that war broke out they had had six wells more or less that perhaps could produce am average of, I understand, 300 barrels a day, at any rate not a large number. The wells did not operate for a few years, so that the company received no return outside of what oil they have sold to the radium mine on Great Bear lake and to the mines at Yellowknife on Great Slave lake. Their oil barges came up the Mackenzie river and sailed over Great Slave lake to Yellowknife and to other mining centres on Great Slave lake. Also they sent oil up the Bear- river which they had to move around the rapids of Bear river, and then on Great Bear lake to the radium mines at the east end of that lake. After the United States became embroiled in the war with Japan they wished to have oil for their war activities in Alaska. It was then they considered running a pipeline from Fort Norman over to White Horse. Other wells had been drilled by or for them, I believe, and I assume that what the minister refers to as to the United States investing in that part of the country is what they have invested in the wells they have drilled since they went there and the pipeline. From what the minister said I understand that the United States government or someone representing it has taken over for the time being the wells which were formely operated by and for the Imperial Oil company. Am I right?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; that is not correct.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is the Imperial Oil also
producing oil?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The United States government made an arrangement or reached an understanding with the Imperial Oil company-


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is what I said.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -to carry on drilling operations. That is according to the information that has been supplied me. What the nature of that arrangement is, how the United States government assisted the Imperial Oil company financially, or the terms upon which they assisted them, I do not know. That is a matter between the United States government and the company.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The United States government takes over all the oil produced at present at Fort Norman.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They buy oil from the operating company. The United States has not acquired title to a single oil well.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They take the oil
produced.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Mr. BENCE:: I should like to obtain more information about the item. How much of this money is spent in Saskatchewan and how much in Alberta, and where is the money spent in Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand there is only one project that is under consideration in western Saskatchewan. There is some expenditure being incurred at Wainwright in Alberta. This is to cover the investigation of petroliferous areas in Canada ; that is, possible oil areas.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Generally?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Alfred Henry Bence: I want to know the areas that are being investigated in Saskatchewan. How much is expended in that particular province? How much is earmarked for it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret that I cannot give my hon. friend the precise location of that area. There is only one area in the southwestern part of the province.


Alfred Henry Bence: Is no work being done in northwestern Saskatchewan in the direction of Lloydminster?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is it proposed to drill for oil at the town of Peace River or down the river from Peace River?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have quite a number of geological parties-seventeen. We have ten parties prospecting for oil in Alberta, largely in the northern part of the province and also some over the border in British Columbia.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I was referring to the oil site at or near the town of Peace River. The minister is undoubtedly familiar with the oil formations, or evidences of oil, on the Peace river, right at the town of Peace River and down the river some twenty-five miles. Last summer I went down the river about twenty-five miles.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot tell my hon. friend the precise places where these geological parties are making surveys, but I should think it likely that the area he speaks of will come under their work.

War Appropriation-Mines and Resources


John Ritchie MacNicol: They are survey parties? This vote just covers survey parties?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It covers more than that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does it cover the actual drilling of wells in any area?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Alfred Henry Bence: Can the minister give me that information as to how much of the money is being spent or is earmarked for Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an estimate of $10,000, but it may be more or less than that. We get a vote of $500,000. There is great urgency for oil, and consequently we have arranged for as many survey parties to go out for oil as we can get. It is impossible when you get your estimate to say just how much money you will spend here and how much you will spend there.


Thomas Miller Bell: You have $10,000 earmarked?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. Whatever is necessary for the party in Saskatchewan will be available out of this vote.


Alfred Henry Bence: I am interested to see that enough money is available to ensure that the work is done completely in that province.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can give my hon. friend the assurance that this party will have all the support financially that is necessary for it to carry on work throughout the summer.


Thomas Miller Bell: Is it just one party going out in Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that is correct.


Major James William Coldwell: The minister was asked if work was being done in southwestern Saskatchewan. Are there not some leases to be worked in southeastern Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. I do not think we
have had any warrant for carrying on work there. After all, the department is guided by its trained men, its geologists, as to where the money will be spent.
Mr. FAIR. Can the minister give information with regard to the development at Wainwright?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should have said a moment ago that work is being carried on on the seismograph principle. I hope no hon. member will ask me to explain it, because I do not know anything about it; but it is, I am informed, a scientific method of prospecting by
means that are somewhat new, and some of that seismographic work is being carried on in the Wainwright field.


Major James William Coldwell: Is that by dynamite and recording machines?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They drill holes in the ground and set off a blast of dynamite, and that is recorded on machines. Those who are qualified and experienced in the work can determine from the records made on the machines, or at least they can make a pretty shrewd guess, whether or not there is any oil underneath.


Major James William Coldwell: I believe they can find out what kind of formation it is geologically.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Probably.


Major James William Coldwell: How many parties does the minister propose to send out this year on this particular work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a total of seventeen parties prospecting, geological parties looking for oil, and there are seven topographical parties in addition.


Charles Edward Johnston: Are they made up of parties that are going out under the auspices of the Imperial Oil? There are parties going out drilling, sent by Imperial Oil. Is a part of this going to assist them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not a cent of it.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is that all done on their own?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is all done on their own.


Charles Edward Johnston: I understood that a portion of this grant was being used for that purpose.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is nothing in this vote for purposes of that kind.


Major James William Coldwell: Are we helping Imperial Oil? Are we paying anything towards the Imperial Oil's exploration?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Charles Edward Johnston: What
amount of assistance is given to Imperial Oil for testing the structures around the country?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We are not giving them any assistance.


Charles Edward Johnston: None at all?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Alfred Henry Bence: What is the extent of the collaboration between the minister's depart-
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ment and the minister of natural resources of Saskatchewan? Is there any unity of purpose in the work of the minister's department and the work of that particular provincial department in connection with the explorations for which this money is being provided?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As far as the officials of
the Department of Mines and Resources are concerned, they are carrying on discussions from time to time with their opposites in the provincial field. Let me repeat that these parties are sent into certain areas on the recommendation of the experienced geologists of the department.


Alfred Henry Bence: Of the minister's department.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Of our department. Doubtless they have obtained all the information that might be available in the provincial department; it would be their business to have all the information they could possibly get.


Alfred Henry Bence: Does the province of Saskatchewan contribute in any way to the sort of work the minister's department is doing in this regard?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; we bear the entire expense of the geological parties.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Do I understand that
this is the first time the federal government have resorted to the use of the seismograph in testing the oil potentialities of the various areas? I believe that for years past they have examined potential structures from a purely geological point of view, but now I understand that as a result of the present need the activities of this particular branch are being enlarged, and it is actually testing by the use of the most recent and best recognized system of seismographic test. Is that correct?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; this is the first time
the seismograph has been used at federal government expense; I think I am correct in that. Our own officers do not do this work; we make agreements with experienced seismograph companies who do certain work under contract, in certain areas that we designate.


Thomas Miller Bell: What has Doctor
Hume been using for the last several years in some of these surveys? Has he not been using this method?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: He has been examining
structures, but not by seismographic methods. It may be that the seismographic methods will attain a higher state of perfection than has , been the case in the past. After all, these j methods are tried out and tested thoroughly,! and improvements made, and it may well bej

that the federal government, this government or some other government in the future, will consider it a wise expenditure to get the necessary equipment to carry on this seismographic work at government expense, but we do not have the experienced operators at this time. We recognized that there were possibilities in this method, and arrangements were made with experienced seismograph companies who, I understand, have been largely employed in the United States.


Thomas Miller Bell: The arrangements were made with seismograph companies, does the minister say?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Major James William Coldwell: Are these instruments
costly? I do not think they are very expensive, relatively, considering the use one gets out of them. In fact I think our own department has been experimenting with them for a number of years, and I find it difficult to understand-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think my hon. friend is correctly informed there. I understand there are seismographic companies, principally in the United States, though no doubt they operate in other parts of the world as well, who have the instruments and trained personnel necessary for carrying on the work. At any rate our work is being carried on under an agreement with an experienced operator.


Major James William Coldwell: Wiiat is the agreement? Do you pay them so much per month or so much per year or so much per day?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We pay them so much a
week or so much a day; at the moment I do not know the precise terms of the agreement.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You send them to an
area and they take their equipment and carry on their investigation, and When they report they are paid for the length of time they have taken, are they not?	*


Mr. HAZEN:: Does this item include the
cost of the investigation recently made into the shale deposits in Albert county?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is correct.


Douglas King Hazen: Could the minister tell us
what was the cost of that investigation, who made it and how long it took?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We provided $50,000 for . that purpose, of which $42,611 was spent.
*0 Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury): Did the * province of New Brunswick contribute any-i thing?

The War


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Twenty-five per cent.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Was that work done under the direction of Doctor S. C. Ells?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It was under the direction of another departmental geologist.


Manley Justin Edwards: I presume the information gained through this seismograph work is made available to the public as soon as it is obtained, and I should like the minister to tell us how that is done. I wish to know also whether there is any general policy in regard to doing seismograph work in areas already leased to development companies. I have in mind one area west of Rocky Mountain House, for instance, where there is a very large potential field. One well has been drilled there at tremendous expense, costing something over $500,000. I should assume that it would be desirable to do more intensive work in examining the potentialities of that area, but I can see also that such work would be to the benefit of a company which is already in there with a very large leasehold. The work being done by the department is desirable and commendable, but I was wondering whether the department was confining its exploratory work to areas not already leased, or whether it was giving some assistance to companies possessing areas not yet proven up.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe this is the first year the federal government has spent money on the seismograph method, though I understand that certain oil companies which have areas in Alberta under permit or licence have used the method, which is a common practice in the United States. However, we are not spending any money now in areas under the control of private companies. I am informed that our tests by the seismograph method will be confined almost wholly, if not entirely, to Wainwright national park, which is still under the control of the federal government. The survey may be carried outside the boundaries, but it is a new thing. The officers of the department think it has possibilities, and my judgment is that it will probably pay the government to incorporate permanently in its geological survey work the seismographic method.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is money being spent in eastern Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There have been investigations in New Brunswick, and some in Nova Scotia.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Anything in the Gaspe district?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, nothing in the Gaspe district.


Robert Fair: Is any work being done in the Lloydminster or Vermilion oil fields?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some work is being done in the Vermilion district.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Shall the item carry?


Major James William Coldwell: Eleven o'clock.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Did the item not pass?


Richard Burpee Hanson: No.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
It being five minutes after eleven o'clock, the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Friday, July 16, 1943