1943-07-23

REPORTS OF COMMITTEES

[Stage Direction]
Fourth report of special committee on social security.-Mr. Macmillan.
Third and final report of standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government.-Mr. Howden.
Second and final report of special committee on the defence of Canada regulations.-Mr. Bertrand (Laurier).

Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, before motions are proceeded with I should like to rise to a question of privilege. Last night's ten o'clock news bulletin of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation contained an item which reflected upon members of the House of Commons. The news broadcast stated that Canada's largest war appropriation bill, amounting to $3,890,000,000, was given its first, second and third readings within a few minutes during yesterday's session-I believe "ten minutes" was the actual expression used. Such a statement, without an explanatory background, might readily lead Canadian listeners to conclude that insufficient consideration had been given by the House of Commons to this important measure. Actually no legislation of like character in Canadian parliamentary history had been the subject of as close scrutiny and inquiry, or had been as long and thoroughly debated as the resolution upon which this bill was founded.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Gordon Graydon: I am glad that government members seem to be satisfied that we have made a good job of scrutiny. It is true that the formal readings of the bill required only a few minutes of the time of the house, but in justice to hon. members in this chamber I think it should be asserted that 44 out of the 117 sitting days of this session have been spent in debating that resolution. I rise to this point of privilege in order that there may be no possible misunderstanding on the part of the public in the matter.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I am pleased that the
leader of the opposition (Mr. Graydon) has

Privilege-Mr. Gray don

raised this point. As a matter of fact I had intended doing so myself if my hon. friend had not done so.


Gordon Graydon: I do not very often get ahead of the Prime Minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is true- and I hope my hon. friend never will.


Gordon Graydon: Perhaps this is just a start.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have prepared a memorandum which helps to emphasize what the leader of the opposition has just said.
On February 26 the Minister of Finance moved that the house go into committee to consider the war appropriation bill. On March 3 the Minister of Finance presented a table showing a break-down of the various estimates. Then the resolution was considered in committee on May 13, 14, 18, 21, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 and 31; June 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14,15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29 and 30; July 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 21 and again yesterday. As my hon. friend has said, it has been considered during 44 sittings, lasting over a period of nine weeks. I believe that fact makes it quite clear that, as my hon. friend stated, there has been no financial measure in the history of this parliament which has received the amount of consideration-careful consideration-and full discussion that this particular measure has received.
May I point out at this time wherein I believe the error made in the news broadcast arose. As the house is aware, money bills are preceded by resolutions. I have said time and again to the Clerk of the House who, from my conversations with him, holds a similar view, and so states in his volume dealing with procedure in the house, that the resolution was never intended to be more than a notice to the house that a money bill was being brought down, and that it had been approved by His Excellency the Governor General. I have pointed out, and he agrees, that it was never intended that a lengthy debate should take place on the resolution stage of any financial measure. The resolution is intended to be in the nature of a warning to the house that a financial measure is to be considered. Certainly, until recently, this parliament has passed many such resolutions as a formal procedure. However we have begun to adopt the practice, one to which I have objected time and again, and to which I still object of proceeding to discuss at length on the resolution stage the main features of a bill. This session of parliament, or a very large part of it, has
been taken up in the discussion of the resolution in question. There was nothing further left to discuss on the bill itself that is why no discussion whatever was required when the bill was presented, and why there was no delay in passing its second and third readings. I hope these points will be made clear to the public, because they are in explanation of why the bill itself, which was based on a resolution, passed through the house as rapidly as it did. The whole subject matter was very fully discussed on the resolution stage.


Gordon Graydon: The Prime Minister has discussed the point in some detail, and I believe I might be justified in adding something further. In order that there may be no misunderstanding on the part of the public, and that we may not have the criticism which from time to time is offered to the effect that large sums of money are passed through parliament with what, to some, is regarded as inadequate consideration, may I add a word with respect to the civil estimates we are now considering. I believe hon. members will agree that the principles embodied in the estimates for civil expenditures and the subjects covered thereby were in most instances dealt with at length when we were discussing the war appropriation resolutions. I believe therefore it would not be in the interests of the country or of parliament that in the discussion of the civil estimates there should be any great measure of repetition.
True, there are some matters which do not come within the purview of the war appropriation, and to 'these we as the opposition intend to give the greatest care and scrutiny as they are presented. But I think it would be the wish of parliament and of the country that there should be no unnecessary repetition of discussion in a war time period. I make this statement as complementary to that which has been made by the Prime Minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Again I should like to thank the leader of the opposition for having directed the attention of the house and the country to a very important matter. I agree entirely with all that he has said. With respect to the ordinary estimates, they have been before 'the house from the moment the debate on the address was completed. They differ little in any particular from the ordinary estimates which have been voted year after year by this house during the last four years. They relate to the necessary business of government, hon. members have discussed similar items in previous sessions, perhaps not the exact amounts that are here, but the subjects that are indicated, and hon.

Toronto Shipbuilding Company
members know whether the items have changed in a significant way. Moreover, the government has sought to ascertain from the different parties any particular items in the estimates which any of their members feel should be brought forward for consideration before other estimates are taken up. In other words, if there are any estimates which hon. members who have given special study to 'the estimates feel should be considered before others, the government will try to meet the wishes of hon. members in that regard. But it is true that the war appropriation bill has dealt with practically all departments of government and there has been on that measure the fullest opportunity for discussion of practically everything bearing upon the various subjects which appear in the ordinary government estimates.



WAR EXPENDITURES COMMITTEE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That the name of Mr. McGregor replace that of Mr. Boucher on the war expenditures committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. L. R. LaFLECHE (Minister of National War Services):	I wish to table
copy of order in council P.C. 5642, of July 16, 1943, naming Mr. Thomas P. Murphy to head the government office economies control.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. ANGUS L. MACDONALD (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services): When the estimates of the Department of National Defence for Naval Services were being considered certain questions were asked and I promised to get the answers in due course. I should like to table these answers in the form of returns to orders of the house. The first question was asked by the hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen), as reported on page 3519 of Hansard, and the second one was asked by the hon. member for Peterborough West (Mr. Fraser), as reported on page 3524 of Hansard.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That standing order 28 be suspended for the remainder of the session in relation to the proviso that, except by unanimous consent of the house, the estimates of each department shall be first taken up on a day other than Thursday or Friday.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. R. ADAMSON (York West):: I
should like to direct a question to the Minister of Munitions and Supply, a copy of which I have already sent to him. In view of the conditions which appear to exist in the yards of the Toronto Shipbuilding company, as disclosed in papers which have been tabled in this house, has the government under consideration the institution at once of a comprehensive inquiry.


Mr. LIONEL CHEVRIER (Parliamentaiy Assistant to the Minister of Munitions and Supply):: I have no knowledge of the hon.
gentleman having sent a notice of his question, but I shall see that a reply is obtained.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Lionel Chevrier: I should like to refer to a question
asked by the hon. member for Cape Breton South on Wednesday of this week. It referred to the cancellation of a contract in a ship yard at Pictou. I have looked up Hansard and I find that on at least two occasions the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) discussed this subject in the house. The first time was during the consideration of the war appropriation resolution and again, I believe, in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black). On both those occasions the minister went into' the question quite fully and answered the inquiries wffiich were made by the hon. member for Cape Breton South. I have nothing to add to those statements.


Mr. GILLIS:: Mr. Speaker, may I comment for a moment on that answer?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Clarence Gillis: I would like to ask the parliamentary assistant if he has made any check on the matter as I requested on Wednesday..

Butter Storage Facilities
My question on Wednesday was based on the fact that the statement made by the minister in the house on this matter was incorrect.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order.


Clarence Gillis: I have evidence to support that. The answer given is absolutely unsatisfactory.


WAR CONTRACTS DEPRECIATION BOARD- CERTIFICATES OF NECESSITY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. R. MaoNICOL (Davenport): I am sorry I have not been able to give notice of the question I am going to ask the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Munitions and Supply because I became aware only last evening of the difficulties which certain contractors are having in connection with appearing before the war contracts depreciation board. I do not expect an answer to my question to-day, but perhaps the parliamentary assistant could advise me if there has been any change in the policy of the Department of Munitions and Supply in regard to the granting of certificates of necessity required by contractors when they wish to appear before the war contracts depreciation board. If there has been any change, has it been covered by any departmental letter, circular or directive changing or clarifying the procedure, and are copies of such regulations available for distribution?
Lionel Chevrier: I believe I can answer the hon. gentleman's question. A memorandum has been sent out in connection with the whole subject of depreciation, and I shall see that the hon. gentleman gets a copy. It covers the situation very fully.


Mr. MacNICOL:: I wish to thank the parliamentary assistant for his prompt answer.


DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS
[Stage Direction]
"reader's digest"
On the orders of the day:
Mrs. DORISE W. NIELSEN (North Battle-ford) :	Since there has been considerable
editorial comment in the United States press upon the infamous article written by Max Eastman in the "Reader's Digest" and reprinted in the Toronto Telegram, and since it would appear to be in direct contravention of subsection 1 of 39A of the defence of Canada regulations, would the Minister of Justice, now that he has had an opportunity of reading the article, please give the house some information as to how he intends to proceed or what action he intends to take?
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice refers such matters to the law officers of the department for their opinion in view of their experience, and that is being done in connection with the article to which the hon. member called attention the other day.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Finance in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture. Last night's Ottawa Journal carried an extract from the Summer-side Journal of Prince Edward Island which states:
A report received in Charlottetown from Bristol, King's county, said that a carload of butter shipped from the Morell cooperative creamery to the mainland was returned with the blunt statement "No market, all storage filled up!" This butter at last week-end was reported still on the railway siding at Morell, while the creamery management was seeking a market or storage facilities, while tons more were in process of being manufactured.
Will the minister make inquiries and state whether that is correct?


Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance):: I will make inquiries and consult with the acting Minister of Agriculture.


Gordon Graydon: Who is officially the acting Minister of Agriculture?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Acting Minister of Agriculture):: I know nothing about the question raised by the hon. member for Weyburn, but I shall endeavour to get the information and give it to the house to-morrow if we are so unfortunate as to be still in session then.


NORTH-WEST FIELD FORCE INQUIRY AS TO PENSION OR OTHER ASSISTANCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the house before it closes to an important matter. The minister of pensions said with reference to the Northwest Field Force that 126 members of the house have written the Toronto committee saying they would like to have this matter discussed. The minister promised that we could take it up on an item in his estimates but it will be impossible to do that now because thirty-six members who wanted to take part in the discussion have gone home. The soldiers of the Northwest
North-West Field Force

rebellion returned fifty-seven years ago. There were 5,000 of them called out and not one of them has cost the country a cent.


Thomas Vien: Order. The hon. member is hardly in order on the orders of the day.


Thomas Langton Church: Just a moment please, Mr. Speaker. The minister promised that this matter would be discussed on an item in the house, but now it is impossible to do so because 36 members who wanted to fake part in the discussion have gone home and they have asked me to bring it before the house. There are only 250 members of the northwest field force left.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): On a question of privilege, and not in reply to a question that is out of order, I said that this matter could be discussed on item 239 of the estimates dealing with pensions to the men of the Northwest rebellion. The question specifically refers to that item, and I shall be glad to discuss it when it is reached. If the house will give me permission to add one word, the only question at issue is not pensions for these men, because they have the same right to pension as those who served in the South African war and in the great war, but whether we should extend the provisions of the War Veterans' Allowance Act to men who are now over seventy. The only way in which it could be done would be to declare the rebellion area a theatre of war, and I might point out that we could not do that unless we granted the same privileges to Canadians who served in England and Canada during the great war.


Thomas Langton Church: They said it came up that way last year and it did not. It is most unfair treatment for the veterans of 1885.


Gordon Graydon: Apropos of the question directed to the Minister of Pensions and National Health by the hon. member for Broadview,
I was disappointed that the minister took the position he did, because I think the minister recognizes full well that the hon. member has had for some considerable time a desire to raise this question, either on a motion for adjournment or on going into supply. He was only attempting on this occasion to bring to the attention of the house a matter which had been with him for some considerable time and is of long standing. I point that out to the minister by 
way of clarification, in case he is under any misapprehension. I know that a great number of people are anxious that this legislation should be introduced by the government this session.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: I did not refuse to give any information to the hon. gentleman. I pointed out what was the proper and correct way to give the information, which would be probably later on to-day on an item in the estimates specifically concerning this very thing. I take the same position as I did a year ago. A committee of this house sat and considered this matter and made recommendations that the matter be considered by the government. I said a year ago that when the Veterans' Allowance Act was amended, as it would have to be later on, we should be glad to give the fullest possible consideration to the representations being made. I may tell the hon. gentleman that I and those who sit on this side of the house are as much interested in the welfare of these old veterans as he is.


Thomas Langton Church: Nothing will be done but talk. There are protests from a hundred places and support asked for it.


DOUKHOBORS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. K. ESLING (Kootenay West):: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Labour has expressed doubt as to the authority of selective service officers to proceed under existing regulations against Doukhobors who fail to answer the call unless a court order has first been secured. The other day the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) asked the Minister of Justice whether a ruling had been requested by his department. The reply was in the negative. Therefore I have suggested both to the Minister of Labour and to the Minister of Justice that I would seek further information to-day.
My question is: Must there first be a court order to bring before a magistrate a Doukhobor who fails to register, and must there be a second court order in order to secure his conviction for failure to answer the call? Should he be convicted of such failure, must there be a further court order to permit the selective service officer to take him to an alternative service camp?
The records of the government show that there are just 350 Doukhobors of military age who have not answered the call. My question

Sugar jor Canning
in United, States
to the Minister of Labour is, how many, if any, Doukhobors, have been convicted of failure to register, and how many, if any, have been subjected to the penalty provided, which is $200 or three months in prison?
How many, if any, of the 350 Doukhobors of military age who have failed to answer the call and have failed to register have been convicted? Has the government taken any action against the 2.600 Doukhobors who failed to register at the 1940 registration, which involved a penalty of three months' imprisonment and a fine of $200? I want to emphasize their defiant attitude towards this government, and I do so by stating that I have a communication from the Union of the Spiritual Communities of Christ, of British Columbia. It comes from the centre of the Doukhobor element in my district, and in order that the members may have a verbatim announcement with respect to the defiant attitude of the Doukhobors I ask permission to have my leader read this communication to the house.


Thomas Vien: I did not wish to interrupt the hon. gentleman when he was asking his question, but he has taken much more latitude than I think I ought to allow him. Perhaps the leader of the opposition would read the communication and close.


Gordon Graydon: I would seek your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, in this particular instance, if I may. The letter which the hon. member for Kootenay West has asked me to read in conjunction with his statement is dated Crescent Valley, July 7, 1943, and reads:
In regards to doing alternative service for aiding war effort (to whomsoever it may be) we must repeat in reply that to all true members of the Spiritual Communities of Christ this is absolutely unthinkable. Instead, we consider^ it our historical obligation to raise our full voice of protest against your insane rush into the fires of destruction Satan has started upon earth. (Signed)-Members of the Union of the Spiritual Communities of Christ.


William Kemble Esling: What is the government going to do about it?


Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):: I shall be glad to look into the rather extended remarks of the member for Kootenay West and endeavour to give him a reply to-morrow.


STATEMENT IN RESPECT TO SUPPLIES FOR CANNING IN THE UNITED STATES
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
James Lorimer Ilsley: Mr. Speaker, the leader of the opposition
asked me to make a statement about the situation in the United States with regard to the supply of sugar in the United States for canning purposes.
Our latest advice from the United States is that all consumers may obtain a general allowance of 10 pounds per head for home canning and preserving. In addition, upon application to a local ration board, and completion of various declarations each applicant may be allowed additional sugar up to a maximum of fifteen pounds per head, thus providing for a maximum possible allowance of 25 pounds per head, as stated by the leader of the opposition.
While this plan has been announced, it is not clear as to just what will happen if a large number of people in the United States do in fact apply for the extra allowance. If the experience is similar to that in this country, the total amounts applied for will far exceed both the amount of sugar available, and the amount required to put up such fruit as is available.
The over-all international allocation of sugar is made by the combined food board, on which Canada is represented. Sugar consumption in the United States in 1942 was
10,610,000,000 pounds, compared with 900,000,000 pounds in Canada. This is an approximately equal per capita amount. Presumably the over-all international allocation will continue to maintain this balance, and ;ach country will have to make its own .ntemal allocation. The amount allocated to any one purpose within Canada-or in the United States-can only be decided in the light of all relevant circumstances, particularly the amount used for other related purposes, such as the amounts used for commercial jam making and fruit packing.
In spite of the anticipated reduction in the fruit crop this year, the amount of sugar allocated for home canning is the same as the amount used last year. There is no justification for an assumption that more sugar will be required. What has happened is that a far greater number of people will participate in the use of sugar for home canning this year-with a consequent reduction in the amounts which heretofore were used by some persons. This is what rationing does.


INQUIRIES FOR RETURNS
[Stage Direction]
CHRISTIE STREET HOSPITAL-VOLUNTARY NURSING* AIDES-PROPOSED ADDITIONAL BUILDINGS
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: I wish ta address a question to the Minister of Pensions-
Canada Evidence Act

and National Health. On several occasions I have asked for a return for which the order has been passed, in respect of a question asked on July 14. Is there any reason why I may not have that return made?
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): I looked into that yesterday and was assured that the return would be ready to-day.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: An order for return with relation to another question was made yesterday. May I have an answer to it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is very impetuous. An order for return was made by this house yesterday and he expects me to have it down to-day. It affects four departments of government and will be made as soon as possible, but it will not be ready to-day.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Mr. Speaker, may I rise to a question of privilege. A few moments ago I asked when I might have answers to certain questions from the Minister of Pensions and National Health. I am not satisfied with the answer given me by the minister to the inquiry with respect to the bringing down of reports in response to questions asked in this house. He said that I was impetuous and that a return would not be made to-day. As the house will very shortly adjourn, I am anxious to have a reply to these questions so that I shall have them available when I discuss the estimates of his own department. I do not think I can be accused of being impetuous. I asked one question on July 14 and it would take an efficient clerk not more than an hour to give the answer. As regards the question I asked for which an order was made yesterday, it would not take half an hour to give me the reply. It would appear to me that in giving answers as has been done there is a deliberate attempt to deny me that to which I am [DOT]entitled.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I rise to a point of order and I want an immediate retraction of the word " deliberate." No minister has been more anxious to furnish answers to questions, or information asked for, by means of orders for returns, than I am. This order was passed yesterday. It affects the three defence services and my department as well. It should properly go to the Secretary of State. He should make the return to the house. IBut I am supposed by the hon. member to 
make the return this morning. It is an absolute impossibility. I can promise him that as far as my department is concerned there will be no delay whatsoever in supplying the information at our disposal, but I protest against any member saying that a minister is deliberately withholding an order for return. I want that word retracted here and) now.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I should like to ask if that term applies-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I rose to a point of order. I want a retraction of that word.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I was referring to the return which was passed on July 14, and which I have not received.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I told my hon. friend that I asked my staff yesterday in regard to that return and was assured that it would be ready some time to-day. As soon as it is ready it will be tabled in this house.


Thomas Vien: I believe the hon. gentleman should withdraw the word "deliberately."


Herbert Alexander Bruce: If you say it is unparliamentary, Mr. Speaker, I have no alternative but to withdraw.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is a very graceful way of doing it.


Gordon Graydon: I realize that it is near
the end of the session and that tempers may be a little frayed, but I think perhaps the Minister of Pensions and National Health might have used a happier word himself than "impetuous." I say that in the friendliest way, because I know he has no desire to be discourteous, and I think it would be in order if this were called a tie.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I will call no tie at all with the hon. member for Parkdale, and I refuse to be insulted by him.



CANADA EVIDENCE ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of and concurrence in an amendment made by the Senate to bill No. 74. to amend the Canada Evidence Act.
Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Alberni):: Will the minister explain?

Criminal Code-Betting
Mr. ST. LAURENT: This was a bill to amend the Canada Evidence Act. It provided that affidavits taken by the officers mentioned in the bill would have the same effect as affidavits taken before properly authorized officers in Canada; and the senate has replaced the word "officer" by the word "person".


Gordon Graydon: What is the reason for the change?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I cannot say, unless it was felt by the hon. members of that other house that the word "person" being a more general word, and being followed by the words "authorized to administer or take affidavits" was sufficient without further restricting it by giving to such person the title of "officer".


Gordon Graydon: It seems to me that under the act no one except an officer would come under the category of "person" in this respect.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No, I do not think that anyone but an officer would come under that description. But it is a person authorized to do a certain thing, and whether he is referred to as an officer or as a person is, I think, quite immaterial to the application of the act.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of fustice) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the senate to bill No. 107, to amend the criminal code.
He said: I so move because, at this stage of the session, I do not think it would be appropriate to ask for a conference to discuss these amendments which have to do with sections 7 and 8 of the bill. Hon. members will remember the debate we had on those sections and how it was explained that they were introduced at the request of some of the attorneys general of the provinces who found difficulty in curbing as they would wish to do the evil of betting and bookmaking prevalent in their localities. Hon. members of the other house have come to the conclusion, from the situation in the country as they know it, that the amendments are unnecessary. They set up their opinion against the opinion of the attorneys general who are administering justice. I regret it. I should have preferred to
see the bill stand as passed by this house. But there will be other sittings of this house, and if in the meantime the opinions expressed by the attorneys general are persisted in from the result of their experience, I shall expect to have the honour at another session to come back before parliament with appropriate suggestions. In the meantime, one of the amendments consists in striking out the clause that has to do with advertising, printing and publishing material likely to assist or likely to be used in connection with bookmaking.
Alan Webster Neill: Section 8?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Yes. They struck out section 8 entirely. Though it had been subjected to the proviso that it would not apply to bona fide newspapers, the section in the code as it stood before was found by some of these attorneys general, or their deputies, to be insufficient to prevent the issuing of these tipster sheets which are very frequently put out for the purpose of aiding in bookmaking. The other house has refused to accept section 8. As to section 7, they have taken out the words, "in such manner as to be likely to be used," so that the former paragraph as it stood will remain, with the words inserted, "or outfitted or equipped" and will so read as to define a common betting house as a place open, kept or use or outfitted or equipped for the purpose of facilitating or encouraging or assisting in the making of bets. They have taken out, after "outfitted or equipped", the words "in such manner as to be likely to be used." So that under the provision as it stands, with their amendment, the court will still have to find the subjective intention of the person doing the thing with which he is charged.
I regret that they took that attitude, but at this time I do not think it would be advisable to have a conference over the matter, and I think we may see whether, with the insertion of the words they have left in, it meets the situation complained about by these attorneys general or whether anything further will be necessary at some future time.


Gordon Graydon: Section 7 received the careful and earnest attention of a number of hon. members when the bill was in the committee stage. There was a good deal of debate on that question, perhaps more than on any other single provision of the amendment to the criminal code. If my memory serves me correctly, although I did not take part in the debate myself, it was only after a good deal of careful consideration that the amendments as they then appeared were passed by the committee and by this house and sent to the other place, being finally disposed of in the way in which the provision is now
Criminal Code-Betting

before us. The situation which we are now considering is of course vastly different from that which existed when the bill actually passed this house. I may not be in order in asking the minister to answer a question at this stage, but this. amendment having been founded upon submissions made by one, or by several attorneys general of the provinces, may I inquire of the minister whether [DOT]or not, before resubmitting the matter to the House of Commons for its attention, he took occasion to get into touch with the attorneys general, who in the first instance asked for this particular legislation. I am not in a position to pass seasoned judgment on the matter now before the house. The other place has made certain amendments, but it does seem to me that, after careful consideration by this house of a point which was germane to the whole subject matter of the section, that point has now been removed from the bill. Therefore either the discussion which we had before must go for naught, or we must make a protest. I do say, with reference to this particular change, that before the government finally decided to pass it- and my main object in rising at this time is to point this out to the minister-he ought, before coming to the house now, to have received at least the reaction of the attorneys general to whom reference was made when the bill was under discussion in this house.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Without violating the rules of the house, if there is no further debate, I may reply to the questions asked by the leader of the opposition. Of course, under the constitution, legislation has to be passed by both houses of parliament.


Gordon Graydon: That is self-evident.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The other place has refused to acquiesce in the views that we ^submitted, though the substance of the debate that took place in this house was placed before them. So that I do not think that- at this time a conference would be apt to advance the matter, and in my opinion it is preferable to pass the bill in the form in which it has been returned and reintroduce it if the manner in which it has been amended proves unsatisfactory.


Gordon Graydon: I do not think my hon. friend has taken into consideration the question I asked about the reference of this matter, as regards the changes, to the attorneys general of the provinces.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: There has been no -opportunity to do that since the amendment was made in the other place.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.


The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE

[Stage Direction]
Customs and excise divisions-
183. General administration, $1,033,725.
Mr. HAZEN:: If this is the item covering the matter I brought up last evening, perhaps the minister would make some further statement in that regard. I should like him to tell us, if he would, whether in connection with contracts made by the government on a cost plus basis it has ever come to his attention that duties have been paid in order to bring about an increase in price by the person or company selling to the government.


Hon. C. W. G. GIBSON (Minister of National Revenue):: No such information has come to my attention.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Income tax division-
187. General administration, including authority to create positions and make appointments within the division notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act, and the said positions and staff so appointed are hereby wholly excluded from the operation of the said act, $684,300.
Gordon Graydon: This gives me an opportunity to bring to the attention of the minister the multitude of complaints hon. members have received since the minister last had his estimates before the committee in connection with the war appropriation resolution, because of the fact that, despite the attempts which have been made to simplify the income tax forms, they still remain exceedingly complex. A storm of protest has risen across the country in regard to this matter. Frankly as a layman I am not able to suggest to the minister how the forms may be simplified further under the present system of taxation. It may be that the system is at fault, but I believe people have great difficulty in differentiating between the normal tax and the graduated tax; and when you have in addition the various exemptions and the compulsory savings feature, it becomes almost a Chinese puzzle to the average man across Canada. In earlier years, before the incidence of taxation became so severe, this matter was not perhaps so serious; but to-day, with the heavy incidence of taxation and so many more of our people being required to make out these forms the matter has become exceedingly important. Many people are not in a position to obtain the assistance of lawyers and accountants; they have enough taken off their cheques and out of their pay envelopes already, without going to any further expense to have someone

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show them how much they must pay the government. Perhaps that is putting the matter in a very simple way, but I believe that is the way most of the taxpayers of Canada would put it to the minister if they were in this chamber. The whole matter of the incidence of our income tax will have to be given serious consideration by the minister in the interval between this and the next session of parliament. No doubt before this the minister and his assistants have reached the conclusion, in view of the protests that have come from every corner of the country, that some simpler way must be found whereby the people may contribute to the war effort. I am speaking as one who knows very little about accountancy; there are not many experts in that line in this house, but I can say that unless there is some further adjustment of the incidence of this taxation and some simplification of the forms by which taxes are calculated, there will be grave dissatisfaction throughout the country.
At this stage of the session I am not going to discuss this point in detail, but in what I have said I believe I am reflecting the views of hundreds of thousands of taxpayers in Canada who are finding it increasingly difficult to make out these forms. Having in mind the experience of the average person, I have no doubt the minister will find that the inaccuracies and errors in the income tax returns which have been filed this year will amount to a staggering total, and I doubt if the department will ever be able to catch up with those errors and assess the proper taxation. When you make your forms so complex that the average man or woman is unable to understand them, you run into a heap of trouble, which I think the department should make every attempt to avoid.
I bring this matter to the attention of the minister only in order to reflect an ever-growing sentiment in this country. It may be that the suggestions of those of us who are not able to say how these difficulties may be overcome will not be very helpful, but having regard to the broad coverage of our taxation system I am convinced that something must be done to bring about some simplification of it. It is of immediate and imperative necessity that the departments alter the scheme in order that the people of Canada may know how the amount was arrived at, in a simple fashion, and in a manner which will meet the needs of the average citizen.


Mr. REID:: First of all, may I compliment the leader of the opposition upon drawing this matter to the attention of the minister. In fact I might doubly compliment him
because, despite his being a lawyer, he wishes to simplify rather than complicate forms for the preparation of which most people have had to have legal assistance.


Gordon Graydon: And I am not so sure the lawyers know much about them either.


Thomas Reid: Yes, I am inclined to believe that, especially when one hears around the corridors of the House of Commons that many members of parliament, including some lawyers, were stuck when it came to answering questions appearing on the income tax form. In these circumstances, I have wondered how the average citizen has fared.
Complaints have been made in connection with the collection of income tax from workers. Much has been said about absenteeism. I am not saying that this manner of collection has been the cause of absenteeism, but I do know it is creating a great deal of indignation among the workers. I am reliably informed-and if my information is not correct, the minister will deny it-that while a worker may be deducted on the basis of his regular earnings, in the event of his beginning to work overtime the deductions are made at the overtime rate. Many workers are reluctant to work overtime, because they say if they do so, and their rate of pay is increased from, we will say, $1 to $1.50 an hour, the income tax deduction is made at the rate of $1.50 an hour. If this practice is now in effect, a change should be made so that taxation will be taken off at the ordinary rate of wages. I am told this practice has caused much discontent, and it may be the cause of a certain amount of absenteeism. I join with the leader of the opposition in the recommendation he has made.


Colin William George Gibson: The leader of the opposition has spoken about the complicated nature of our tax structure. I must agree with him that it is complicated, and that very fact places a great burden upon my department when it attempts to produce forms which make due provision for the sections in the Income War Tax Act. I believe the officers of the Department of National Revenue deserve some credit for the manner in which they have drawn up forms which include all allowances and deductions for which provisions are made in the act. They have made every effort to produce as simple a form as possible, under the act as it stands to-day. In addition they have produced, for those who use the T-l form, a simplified table for computing the total normal and graduated taxes, and I believe it is of great assistance to taxpayers in working out their taxation.

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Of course it does not help them in computing their taxable income. That must be done by completing the form itself.
The question of taxation of workers for overtime is one which has been given serious consideration. It is receiving attention at the present time, and we are attempting to find out if any other method may be adopted for deducting the tax at the source from a man who in one week earns perhaps a considerably increased amount as a result of his overtime work. While it would not affect his total tax over the year, if we could make some arrangement whereby we would take an average tax from his earnings, it would prevent an over-deduotion being taken from one payment, and a refund being necessary at a later date.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I should like to press upon the minister the necessity of doing something in connection with what is considered to be an excessive tax on the workmen in the coal mines. The production of coal is an emergency operation, as indicated by the Prime Minister, and known by almost everyone in the country. Householders in cities are not able to get any assurance that they will get coal this winter to heat their houses and places of business. I would not say that in the county of Cumberland any workmen have deliberately stopped work because of this tax. But I will say there is not the incentive to continue to produce, or to exert themselves unduly. They do not feel the urge to work six full days a week, and overtime, to bring about the necessary production, because they feel they are unduly penalized on any earnings they may make over and above a certain amount. I must say I have a great deal of sympathy for them in that point of view. It is understood that miners should not be expected to work more than four days in the week. When they work five or six days a week, and the extra earnings are taxed at what they consider an exorbitant rate, all incentive is destroyed. I would urge upon 'the minister that he come to some decision in the matter as quickly as possible, and give some concession to the coal miners in order that they may work to the full limit of their capacity.


Clarence Gillis: The matter now under review was thoroughly discussed with the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Revenue. I understand that on the basis of previous representations the department has been considering some modification of deductions at the source. Would the minister care to make a statement in respect of that matter?


Colin William George Gibson: I am glad to be able to say that to-day we are having discussions with representatives of the miners from the maritime provinces. The two officials with me this morning have been at that conference, and will be returning to it as soon as possible. An attempt is being made to arrive at some method of deduction which will provide that an undue deduction will not be made from a man's pay when overtime is included.


Percy Chapman Black: Who are
sitting in on that conference? Are representatives of the workmen on it?


Colin William George Gibson: Yes, the labour union as
well as representatives of the Department of Labour and of the Department of National Revenue.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: I am
pleased to hear the minister say a conference is taking place with representatives of the miners from the maritime provinces. But I do not understand why only miners from the maritimes are being consulted, when there are miners in other parts of Canada. Their organizations should be consulted too, inasmuch as union officials are being consulted in the matter.
I should like to associate myself with what has been said in connection with taking the tax at the source. I believe that is a cause of much dissatisfaction, especially the feature of it connected with overtime. As has been pointed out, when the deduction is made at the source it is taken at the higher rate of pay, a fact which leads to much misunderstanding. A few days ago, when this matter was discussed at some length under the estimates of the Minister of Finance, the Minister of National Revenue pointed out that a man was not taxed more because he produced more, and that therefore this factor should not be the cause of absenteeism. I did not know this item was to be discussed this morning, or I would have brought my correspondence to the chamber with me; but I believe I am quite safe in saying that I have at least half a dozen letters from people in different parts of the country, one of them from the maritimes and another from British Columbia, complaining about this situation. The letter from British Columbia pointed out that the writer was penalized $3 more in taxation because he was working overtime. If he had not worked overtime he would have been $3 ahead. The minister may say that a mistake has been made in computing the tax; I do not know, because I have not gone into the case thoroughly. However, there is considerable dissatisfaction when the tax is deducted at the

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source. The minister has said that a conference is being held to see if this difficulty cannot be overcome. If something can be done it will be worthwhile. As things stand at present the men are dissatisfied, and I believe this is one of the principal causes of absenteeism, not only in the coal mines but in our munitions and shipbuilding plants. If it can be made clear that men will not be penalized because they work overtime, I think a good deal of the dissatisfaction will be eliminated.
I believe in overtime production, but there should be some overtime or production rate paid. I speak without having given very deep thought to the matter, but probably some arrangement could be worked out whereby regular time free of taxation could be paid for overtime, instead of paying time and a half and then deducting the tax. Generally speaking, I think that would be a satisfactory arrangement. I have associated with workers for thirty years and I feel quite sure that there is not one of these men who is not desirous of going back to work longer hours, sometimes under severe handicaps, in order to increase our war production. This applies equally to men working in the mines and in our munitions factories. But they do resent being taxed) on their overtime pay. If straight time for overtime was paid without deducting at the source, I think you could increase your production a great deal.


Colin William George Gibson: When I said that we were meeting representatives of the miners from the maritimes, I should have stated that we are meeting representatives of miners from all over Canada. If the hon. member for Bow River will let me have the details of the case in which the man was taxed on his overtime, I shall be glad to look into it.


Douglas King Hazen: I am informed that no overtime is paid to the girls and women who work extra hours in the income tax branch. I do not know whether this condition prevails all over Canada, but it does in my own constituency. After working all day girls are ordered back at night. It is true they are paid sixty cents for their dinner, but they receive no pay for the extra time they work. I do not think they are getting a fair deal by being treated in this way. They should receive extra pay for the extra work they do. I should like to know the grounds upon which the government bases its decision that they should not be paid.


Colin William George Gibson: Overtime is not paid to
clerical workers in the civil service who are required to work extra hours. In war time it is necessary in some departments to work beyond
the hours that are customary in peace time. At the present time we have a heavy rush of work in the income tax branch. Our establishment has been increased, but the difficulty is to get qualified people to fill the positions as rapidly as we should like. There are times when the staffs are required to work overtime, but, as I say, throughout the civil service as a whole no overtime pay is granted to those who work extra hours.


Douglas King Hazen: If they belonged to a trade union they would quickly have overtime pay, probably time and a half. I cannot understand upon what basis you can ask these people to come back and work overtime and not pay them. It is not fair that they should have to work hard all day and then come back night after night and receive no extra pay. What hours are worked here in Ottawa?


Colin William George Gibson: The hours of the Ottawa office are from 8.15 a.m. to 5.15 p.m. We have a very loyal staff and have had no complaints from them when they are called upon to work overtime. They realize that in war time there are extra demands, and they have willingly accepted the situation as it exists.


Mr. ROWE:: Are we to infer from the minister's remarks that in these discussions about overtime pay andi taxation he was dealing only with priority industries, such as mining? Does he intend to work out a policy of income taxation for miners only?


Colin William George Gibson: It is not a change in policy; it is working out a change in the methods of deduction. It will not affect the rate of taxation at all.


William Earl Rowe: It is not the intention of the government to work out some system under which miners can work overtime, without giving the same consideration to iron and steel workers, fuel wood producers, pulpwood producers and other workers in similar industries?


Colin William George Gibson: We are exploring it now with the mining industry. If we come to some arrangement, we will try it out and if it works satisfactorily we will see if it can be extended to other industries.


William Earl Rowe: To-day there is a great need for increased fuel wood production, yet men in this industry are discontinuing their daily work in the middle of the afternoon rather than continuing and having their extra earnings taken up by the income tax. I urge upon the minister that he give consideration to this matter, not only from the point of view of the miners but from the point of
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Income Tax

view of the fuel wood producers. I believe that this is now a priority industry, similar to the coal mining industry. This system of deduction interferes drastically with other forest production, and during the last two years the effect has been quite serious. I think in connection with industries such as the iron and steel, coal and fuel wood and many others, a rate of taxation could be struck so that when a man has a total daily wage of $8 with overtime he will not have to pay so much on the last S3 that he considers he will be better off to stop work when he has earned $5. I hope the minister will make this applicable to other lines of production.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
189. District offices, $6,354,296.
Agar Rodney Adamson: How much of this was for the Toronto division?


Colin William George Gibson: The salaries in the Toronto district amount to $487,340.


Agar Rodney Adamson: What territory does the Toronto district comprise? Does it include Hamilton?


Colin William George Gibson: No. Hamilton is a separate office.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Is Oshawa a separate office?


Colin William George Gibson: There is no office in Oshawa.


Agar Rodney Adamson: How far east does the Toronto district go?


Colin William George Gibson: The next office is Belleville. Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF MINES AND RESOURCES 1Z0. Departmental administration, $152,565.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Chairman, there is some information preliminary to the discussion of these items which I think might be useful to the committee. The department secures revenue from various sources, and in the five years from 1937 to 1942 the revenue increased in round figures from $562,000 to $1,065,000. There is a reduction in the estimates this year, over all, of $281,000 odd, and if we eliminated the cost of living bonus, unemployment insurance and war risk insurance, the reduction would be $438,000. The total amount required for cost of living bonus, unemployment insurance and war risk insurance amounts to $502,000 odd.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Mr. Rowe.l
Mines and geology branch
[Stage Direction]
121. Branch administration, $29,550.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, I want to say a word or two in connection with the mines and geology branch, in the hope of encouraging the minister to ask for more money perhaps next session in support of his staff of geologists, chemists and engineers. I recently visited the little plant on Booth street, where I met a number of the engineers and observed the handicaps under which they are working there. I am convinced the time has come when Canada should launch out under the Department of Mines and Resources and determine to develop from our own raw resources the thousand and one different products which we could produce. I am not going to mention any names, but the men I met down there were very bright men, some of them young men, and I just wondered whether our own geologists, engineers and chemists in the minister's department are being properly compensated. There is such a demand in the United States for men with their qualifications that I fear that if our own men are not properly compensated they may be taken away from us, and now is the time that this country requires men of the capacity of our geologists and engineers in the mines and geology branch. There have been marvellous developments of late that we are not profiting from in this country, and I am not sure that they are in the United States to the extent they should, but at all events they are on their way. I hope we will not let them get ahead of us in developing the natural resources of the country.
There are all sorts of developments for the use of the raw products with which this country abounds. Take the minister's own riding in northern Manitoba. There you have one of the finest stands of pulpwood. That would be a great place to develop a thousand and one industries in manufacturing the by-products from the production of pulp which to-day are largely lost. Take plexiglas, for instance, which is being developed in the United States, and many other such materials which we could be developing from our forest products and by-products. The field is unlimited.
I am not going to detain the committee,, but I am convinced that if the minister would ask for an appropriation that would enable him to equip his department with a building fitted with the most modem appliances, the department could achieve much more than it is possible for it to do to-day. Down on Booth street they have just a small hydrogenation plant, a very small affair. Why not:

Supply-Mines and Resources
install an adequate hydrogenation plant there? It would be well worth while when you consider the endless ramifications of fine products which could be developed from our raw resources. I for one will support the minister and the department in asking for an appropriation to erect any plant that is necessary for the purpose. It would have to be infinitely larger than that small building on Booth street. I will support any appropriation that is necessary to man the department with the ablest geologists, chemists and engineers obtainable. They are all good men down there now. One thing I like about the department is that they have such good men in it, but they are working there from motives of patriotism, because if they went to the United States they could command much larger salaries than they are receiving. They deserve credit for staying on the job and helping this country to develop its own natural resources. I am convinced that the Department of Mines and Resources has a golden opportunity to put this country on the map after the war in a thousand and one ways, and I hope that next session the minister will come forward with a request for a real appropriation to build and equip a modern building and give our engineers and geologists and chemists the opportunity of developing the innumerable products that are being developed by different processes elsewhere. I could enumerate forty different lines of production which could be made from our resources in Canada and which are not now being made.
I should like to see our own Canadian processes developed and ear-marked as being the product of Canadian brains. That is all I am going to say on the whole of these items. I am taking them all together and making this short statement covering them all. I hope that these good solid men in the minister's own department will be encouraged and supported to do something in a big way for Canada. But they will need equipment. They have not got it. Hydrogenation is perhaps the most modern process for the development of a thousand and one different lines. Let Canada take its place in the sun, and use its own resources and its own fine men in doing it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I doubt if there is any member of the house who has given more thought to, or has endeavoured to inform himself more fully on, the natural resources of this country than the hon. member for Davenport, and I wish to express my thanks to him for the interest he has taken in the work of the department.


Gordon Graydon: He is in a class by himself on that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no doubt that not many Canadians, having regard to the total number of our population, have a full appreciation of the natural resources and the natural wealth of this country. I may say for the information of my hon. friend that in the war appropriation vote there was an estimate for an addition to the buildings of the mines branch. There will be spent on the building at present under construction about $230,000, and it is the best that all the thought we could bring to bear upon it could produce. In addition to that, about $150,000 will be spent for equipment in this particular work. That will add substantially to the facilities which the mines bureau have for carrying on their work.
But there is another part of my hon. friend's remarks to which I would like to allude. We have difficulty of course during the war in getting the personnel to carry on this work. That will be clear to the committee when I say that since the outbreak of war, from the department as a whole-this is as of last September, when these estimates were first put in draft form-202 employees had enlisted in the armed forces; of these, 32 came from the mines and geology branch. There were then on loan to other departments 34 employees, of whom 11 came from the mines and geology branch. So that since the outbreak of war our personnel in this branch, including men .who have enlisted and men who have been loaned, and these are among our best, have been reduced by 43. But that is due only to war conditions.
I certainly agree with my hon. friend that the public expenditure in this department could well be expanded. I have in mind particularly a much vaster programme than we have hitherto carried out in geological surveys and in mapping surveys of our country.
Once again I wish to express my appreciation of the interest which the hon. member for Davenport has taken in this matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
12S. Mineral resources investigations, $405,000.
Mr. STIRLING:: One of the most desired metals to be discovered in Canada is tin. It has been discovered in a certain form in several parts of Canada. Have any of the discoveries so far shown signs of being of a commercial nature?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret to say that while in a good many places evidences of tin
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deposits have shown up, little can be said up to the present to give any encouragement to the idea that they are there in quality and in quantity for commercial exploitation. The search however is being continued. About the only sources of tin which we have at present, I understand, are the Sullivan ores of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting company.


Gordon Graydon: Is any investigation being made in Canada at the moment with respect to the finding of bauxite'in this country?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This question really comes under another item, but I shall be glad to answer it on this. The geological parties which are sent out in our northern areas, where particularly mineral bearing ores are found, as my hon. friend knows, are not only reporting on the geology of the areas they survey, but also report any evidence of minerals which may be found. Of course they are on the lookout all the time for any sort of useful mineral, and consequently they are on the lookout for bauxite, but up to the present time no reports of any bauxite indications have been received.


Mr. FULFORD:: I would ask the minister whether, in his search for strategic war metals, some of the older sections of Ontario are not being overlooked. I have in mind the county of Leeds, which is at the very front door of Ottawa-


Gordon Graydon: The hon. member has it very much in mind just now.


George Taylor Fulford: Now and at all times- where iron ore at one time was quite extensively mined, moved down the Rideau canal by barge to Kingston, and thence transhipped across lake Ontario to lake Erie points to be smelted. I may recall that the first iron smelter in Upper Canada was in the county of Leeds. Lead was also mined from time to time, as was also mica. There are large deposits of graphite in the county. There are also iron pyrites for sulphuric acid, and at one time there was an acid plant just north of Brockville. Also there are deposits of silica sand for the manufacture of glass, and recently, in the township of Bastard in the county of Leeds, several silver claims, I understand, have been staked. My reason for bringing this to the attention of the minister is that I often wonder, when one reads of the many millions of dollars which are being invested in the bringing in of new deposits, involving the building of railway lines, the diversion of rivers and streams, and sometimes even lakes being pumped dry,
[Mr. Crerar.l
if it would not be quicker and cheaper during this emergency period to reopen some of these older mines, because it is known that in the past these have proved successful.


Gordon Graydon: Have the provincial
authorities taken any move in that direction?


George Taylor Fulford: I know that a record has been made of all these various deposits, but I know of no recent attempts at development.


Gordon Graydon: Have any representations been made from Leeds to the provincial government on that point?


George Taylor Fulford: Not that I know of.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Perhaps I may be permitted to take a little part in this discussion between the hon. member for Leeds and the leader of the opposition. In reply to the question of the hon. member for Leeds, any prospects which show any possibilities of development have, I believe, been surveyed; but I would remind the hon. member that the areas of Leeds county and adjoining counties have been fully prospeoted in years past by prospectors, because of their accessibility, as against the regions farther north, and consequently there is in the department a considerable body of information dealing with the mineral possibilities of these particular counties. There has been a development in fluorspar mining in the adjoining county of Hastings.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch-
126. Geological surveys, $270,000.
Agar Rodney Adamson: I have said before that
this matter of geological surveys is in my opinion only a scratch on the surface of the job that we shall have to do in surveying this country geologically after the war is over. I realize the excellent work that is being done by the minister's department, and particularly by the head of the department, and I congratulate him upon what has already been done, while I emphasize that the amount of work being carried on will have to be tremendously increased, because Canada so far has done hardly more than a scratch on the surface, as I say, in the search for natural resources, particularly minerals. The sums we are spending in Canada and the number of men who are actually utilized for geological survey work are less than those spent and utilized in the small and old country of the United Kingdom. I wish the minister would answer these questions: How many parties are out at the present time? Have these survey parties got as far as the utilization of the diamond drill? I make that point

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particularly because a great deal of the country to be surveyed for minerals is now heavily overburdened with clay and earth. There is a third question and that is with regard to the rehabilitation of the men who are now being discharged from the army. I suggest that immediate steps be taken to utilize men who have been discharged from the army, who are not absolutely fit, for work on survey parties. I realize that you cannot take a man who has been discharged because of stomach trouble and put him on a survey party but take a man who is not fit enough for the army and give him the life of a survey party, and he is very likely to improve in health. I suggest that some research be done into the utilization of men now being discharged from the army. I think they could be put on these survey parties. I know that you could not take them to the north-west territories . or the more hazardous places, but life in the open air in survey parties has rehabilitated more people than probably anything else.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As regards increasing the number of geological parties, I agree with the hon. member for York West. I hinted a moment ago at some of the difficulties.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Man-power, I realize, is a great difficulty.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not so much manpower. We could get the ordinary personnel-


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is a question of skilled men.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -but the difficulty is getting trained personnel. There is no gain in sending out a party at considerable expense to remain in the field for weeks or months making surveys unless you have at the head of it, and probably next to the head, men who know their job. Frankly, our difficulty is in getting the trained personnel. Many of them have enlisted, many are engaged in essential war work of a scientific kind, and consequently we cannot expand these parties during the war. This year thirty parties are in the field and the bureau has done remarkably well to get that number out. On the general question of geological surveys, I agree with the observations of my hon. friend. I do not know who will have the responsibility for this in future years, but I do not hesitate to say to the committee now that when the war is over, just as quickly as trained personnel can be organized to do it, this vote should be at least doubled, and the country's interests would probably be well served by trebling it. There are some other things also that can be
done to develop our mining possibilities. It is well to keep in mind that public opinion generally throughout the country has to get a new conception of what our mining possibilities are. Still lingering in many parts of Canada is the old idea that all this vast shield, from Labrador around the south end of Hudson bay to Bear lake, is barren rock. We know now that we may find minerals in almost any part of it, and consequently when you come to ask for increased expenditures for surveys to do the things that are necessary, to obtain information, you come up against a public opinion that is still influenced by the old conception that there is nothing there. It is a slow process, but substantial progress has been made in the last decade and I feel certain that it will receive increasing attention, as it should, when the war is over.


Agar Rodney Adamson: My suggestion was that
the soldiers in the army who are being discharged-great numbers have been discharged -could be trained in this survey work.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some work is being done
already in that regard. I think my hon. friend has in mind the training of prospectors and assistants who might go out on geological parties.


Agar Rodney Adamson: That is the idea. I do not suggest that they should be skilled engineers.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last winter a series of
schools, if they might be so termed, were held for several days in important centres under the auspices of the mines branch and the prospectors' associations across Canada, attended by prospectors; and in addition to that Queen's university is devoting some attention to the problem. I repeat, it is not difficult to get the ordinary individual to go out as a canoe-man or an axe-man in a geological party. The real difficulty is the trained personnel who can effectively do the work.


Mr. RICKARD:: Has any survey work
been done on the Ganaraska river at Port Hope? A committee has been appointed to make a survey and I was wondering if any report had been made.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the moment I have no information but I will ask the director of the mines branch to look into that question.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I wonder if the committee would mind sitting for a few minutes beyond one o'clock. There are a few items still in this

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section, which I should like to dispose of. The director is busy and I should like to pass them.


Gordon Graydon: That is the latest and
most unusual reason we have had for speed for some time.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
134.	Grant to Yukon council, $60,000.


Gordon Graydon: Is it anticipated that because of the developments going on in the Yukon at this time a greater burden of responsibility will be placed upon the Yukon council?
Mr. C.RERAR: There has been some increase, though not very much, in the expenditures in the Yukon, but fortunately the revenue obtained by the Yukon territorial council also has increased, so that it has not been necessary to increase this vote. I do not care to make any prediction as to what may be the situation next year, but certainly it is anticipated that this amount will meet the needs for the present year.


Gordon Graydon: In other words any increased expenditure at the moment is being met by increased revenue?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would be a fair statement to make.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
135.	Dominion forest service-General scientific, economic and administrative services, $112,102.
Gordon Graydon: What has developed to necessitate the reduction indicated in this vote this year? Are some services curtailed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is accounted for mainly by enlistments from that particular branch of the department.


Gordon Graydon: Loss of personnel?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, there has been a reduction in personnel.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
137. Forest products laboratories, $145,717.
Gordon Graydon: Where are these laboratories located?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The chief laboratory is in Ottawa. There is one in Montreal, more particularly associated with the pulp and paper industry, and one in Vancouver.


Gordon Graydon: Just the three in Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
139. Land registry-Land registry, seed grain collections, administration of ordnance, admiralty and public lands, $52,511.
Gordon Graydon: To what part of Canada do the land registry provisions apply?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as the provinces are concerned, the dominion still has some lands. There are ordnance lands, and admiralty lands, which have come down through the years, and the administration of those lands is carried on by the Department of Mines and Resources. Briefly, any federal lands that are not being specifically used by other branches of the federal government are turned over to this branch for administration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ii0. National parks bureau-National parka and historic sites services, $975,000.
Mr. KUHL:: Inasmuch as the Jasper national park, one of the largest and most beautiful parks in the world, lies within the boundaries of the constituency which I have the honour to represent, I wish to take this opportunity of saying a few words in regard to parks in general and in particular relation to the post-war period. During the present session, both within and without this house, we have had a considerable amount of discussion as to full employment being one of the major objectives in the post-war period. At this time I do not wish to enter into any debate on that issue; nevertheless I do suggest, as I did on a previous occasion, that I can agree with that objective provided we understand what we mean by full employment. If it means that we are going to use machines and our resources of power to the fullest extent possible, and man-power as little as possible, then I can agree; but if it means that we are to put the machines aside and allow them to rust by the roadside, as we did prior to the outbreak of war, and compel men to use picks and shovels and wheelbarrows to do the work we wish to have done, then of course I am entirely opposed to that understanding of full employment. I think Canadians need to learn not so much how to work as how to play. In the past I think far too much emphasis has been placed on the matter of work. Of course that raises a contentious subject, on which there could be much debate, and I am not going to impose my views on the committee now.


Gordon Graydon: But it is a good thing
to have a job.

Supply-Mines and Resources


Walter Frederick Kuhl: What the hon. gentleman
means is that it is a good thing to have an income, not necessarily a job. In the past we have suffered not so much from unemployment as "unempayment". We are all constantly endeavouring to get out of a job, and that includes my hon. friend and his associates. It has been the endeavour of man, ever since he has been upon this earth, to get out of all the nature-forced labour he possibly could in order that he might indulge in voluntary activities such as golf, if you like, or mountain climbing or swimming or a thousand and one other things which people do in their leisure time and in which they may expend more energy than in their working hours. I think we as members of parliament ought to be leading our people toward a new attitude in regard to life. The greatest philosopher who ever trod upon this earth said, "I have come that ye might have life and have it more abundantly." He did not say, "I have come that you might have jobs and work."


Thomas Reid: But he worked as a carpenter.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: Quite true. That was necessary and dignified work; and I, believing in a new economic philosophy, agree that we must all be prepared to do our share of the necessary work that is involved in raising the standard of living to the point to which we wish it raised. In the past, however, people have not refused to do the necessary work, but governments and economists have allowed conditions to arise and to continue under which they have imposed their will upon the people and compelled them to do work which was not necessary or forced by nature. In this day and age, when we have the tremendous advantage of being citizens of the twentieth century, when we are the fortunate recipients of a great fund of knowledge, of science and invention, nature-forced labour could be reduced to the very minimum. I dare say that if in the post-war world we took advantage of all the machines and power production methods available, divided' up the necessary hours of work in an equitable fashion, and divided up the hours of spare time, we could possibly get along with a six-hour or a five-hour day, or even a four-hour day. I believe that is a desirable objective. Fundamentally that is the desire of each of us in the House of Commons, as well as those outside. We are endeavouring to free ourselves of nature-forced labour in order that we may have more spare time to indulge in voluntary activities.
That brings me to the point I have in mind in connection with our national parks. In my view our national parks should be one of the
72537-33oi
means by which the people of Canada can use their leisure time with a maximum of benefit. I think we, as Canadians, shall have to put a good deal more emphasis on the cultural aspect of our lives than we have in the past. I certainly believe we have been putting far too much emphasis on the business and commercial aspects of our lives. True, there must always be a certain amount of business; but it seems to me that we make the objective-of our lives one of pure business and commercialism, and in doing so we fail to emphasize the cultural side. There is far too much talk about pure business matters in this parliament. I should like to hear much more discussion of our philosophical attitude toward life, and what we are getting out of it as a nation. I certainly believe that by reason of the way things have been conducted in the past we have encouraged our people to become a lot of muckraking money-grubbers, and that we ought to get away from that idea.
In the post-war period I should like to see a set of economic circumstances in which people collectively will not be obliged to spend their hours behind office desks, or at lathes, or in machine shops, any more than is absolutely essential in order to produce the standard of living we desire. What I believe the people of Canada need, and ought to have, is more time to play. I see no reason at all why, in the postwar period, every individual, regardless of his position in life, should not have at least two months holidays a year with pay.


An hon. MEMBER:: Who will look after
that?


Walter Frederick Kuhl: Machinery.


Mrs. CASSELMAN:: And who will make the machinery?


Walter Frederick Kuhl: The machines will make the machinery. That is one aspect of our economy which most people who consider our economic problems entirely overlook. They seem to believe that we are still in the eighteenth century, and using a pick, shovel and wheelbarrow. The fact is that we are living in a modem, high-speed, mass-production era, in which production, so far as the limit is concerned, is greatly increased. I am not trying to suggest that we should have an era in which there is no work at all. Naturally there is always going to be a certain amount of nature-forced labour to do, and we should be prepared to do our share of it. If economic circumstances were such that we would not need to do any more than is absolutely essential, the working day could certainly be reduced far below what it is to-day, and the income increased proportionately.
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An American naturalist named John Muir said a few years ago something which I believe is apropos of the matter we are now considering. This is what he said:
The tendency nowadays to wander in wildernesses is delightful to see. Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home; that wildness is a necessity and that mountain paths and reservations are useful not only as foundations of timber and irrigating rivers," but as fountains of life.
I think that is a valuable quotation. And, respecting our national parks, someone else has said this:
If the British industrialist, for instance, was to search the whole world where else could be found such delightful diversified holiday and health-building possibilities as exist in the national parks of western Canada? No matter what the park visitor's interest may be, he may enjoy himself to the utmost in some of this vast national park area of over twelve thousand square miles. He may canoe in the northern prairie parks following the canoe routes of the old-time traders, or he may camp, fish, swim and just loaf to his heart's content. In the mountain parks he may find more vigorous exercise in mountain climbing, exploring and hiking, or if his interest is in natural history in any of its branches, he may find wild animals and birds in abundance in many varieties.
These are the things to which we should be paying more attention in our national life; and were we to do so, we would be better for it. I resent the attitude of looking at our national parks as a basis for tourist trade. To my mind it smacks very much of commercialism. Our national parks and sites of natural beauty should be places where we could entertain our friends from abroad. We ought not to assess our parks in terms of dollars and cents to be drained from them, or as money we can get from our friends who come to visit us. If they wish to entertain us, by way of exchange for the manner in which we entertain them, well and good. Let us go to visit them, and let them entertain us by way of repayment for what we have done. But in my view we must get away from this idea of commercializing that which Should be part of our cultural life.
If I wished to elaborate on this subject there are many other statements I could make, but as hon. members are anxious to conclude the session I shall limit what I have to say. Certainly this is one aspect of our national life which we are overlooking too much. I trust when we reach the post-war period the Minister of Mines and Resources, and his colleagues, are not going to come along and say-if they happen still to be in their present position-that they cannot spend more money to hard-surface the roads of Jasper park or to extend tourist accommodation, because they

have not the money. That was the answer we got in pre-war days: "We have not the money." I believe the thought is thoroughly implanted in people's minds that if we can find five thousand million dollars a year for destructive purposes, certainly the same amount of money can be made available for constructive purposes and for enhancing the cultural life of our nation.
I trust that once we reach the post-war period we are not going to be confronted with the statement that no money is available to do these things. The only limitation imposed in war time is that of men and materials. In peace time those same men and materials will be available, no doubt in far greater quantities than they were during war time. As long as we have the physical essentials to put our parks in such condition that they will be most inviting to our friends from abroad, only physical limitations should be imposed and none other. I trust that the Minister of Mines and Resources will keep this in mind when he is considering the appropriations that are necessary for the development of our national parks.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
142. Grant to John Thomas (Jack) Miner, $2,500.
John Ritchie MacNicol: As a long time friend
and admirer of Jack Miner I want to thank the government for conferring upon him the well-earned title of "O.B.E." I know of no one that I was more pleased to hear had received this honour. The minister has been a consistent supporter of Jack Miner and his work and has provided an item every year as a recognition of the great contribution he has made throughout the years. He is Canada's greatest naturalist and has given freely of his own money, his energies and his time to make Canada famous as a great sanctuary for wild life.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cordially support what
the hon. member for Davenport has said about the achievements and work of Mr. Jack Miner. No honour bestowed in Canada was more worthily bestowed than the one given to Mr. Miner. He has made a great contribution to the understanding and value of the wild life of our country.


Gordon Graydon: I do not suppose there
is anyone in the house who has taken a greater interest in the work of Jack Miner than the hon. member for Davenport. I should like to identify myself with his commendation of the excellent work Jack Miner is doing

Supply-Indian Affairs
and has done. Has the government given any consideration to increasing this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That was under consideration when these estimates were prepared. Speaking for myself, and I think for my colleagues, I may say that we should have liked to increase this vote, but when you come to weigh estimates in the light of the tremendous expenditures that are being made, sometimes the decision must be made that perhaps this is not the proper time to make an increase. I should hope that next year or in later years it may be increased.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Perhaps next year.


Gordon Graydon: I had it in mind that
something might have been lopped off some less necessary civil expenditure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
l-i-'i. Dominion observatory, Ottawa, $97,910.
Gordon Graydon: Has the work in connection with this observatory been increased to any material extent because of the war?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. Generally speaking,
the war has affected the dominion observatory perhaps as little as any other department of government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
lit7. Lake of the Woods control board, $8,150.
Gordon Graydon: Could we have some idea of the work of the board and its personnel?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The dominion members are K. M. Cameron, chief engineer, Department of Public Works; I. R. Strome, dominion water and power board. The Ontario members are Doctor Thomas H. Hogg, chairman, hydro electric power commission; C. H. Fullerton, surveyor general, department of lands and forests. The Manitoba associate member is C. H. Attwood, director of water resources in the department of mines and natural resources. The work of the board is mainly to see that the treaty between Canada and the United States regulating the levels of the lake of the Woods is carried out.


Gordon Graydon: This amount would not cover salaries; it would be for expenses?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It does not cover salaries for the members of the board. I understand there is a small clerical staff.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
153. International boundary commission, $35,300.
Gordon Graydon: Who are the members of this commission?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Under the convention with the United States, the international boundary commission consists of two members. The Canadian representative is N. J. Ogilvie.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-
157. Branch administration, $59,735.
Mr. NICHOLSON:: I imagine that other hon. members of the house have received representations in connection with the position of the Indians under the national war services regulations, 1940. I have in my hand a copy of a petition which was sent to the Minister of Justice and other hon. members, reading as follows:
Every Indian of various reservations of Canada and each member of its council are protesting against the compulsory military service act, and the income tax affecting the Indians.
We are all in favour of helping crush Hitler and those assisting him but we do not want to be forced.
As wards of the dominion government and under the protection of His Majesty, we are tabling this petition in the House of Commons at Ottawa, on this .... day of July, the year 1943, and pray that every member of the house respect our treaties, as they were respected in the case of the enfranchisement act, in the month of March, the year 1933.
Our solemn treaties were again respected in the last great war of 1914-18 when an order in council was passed exempting all the Indians in Canada from military service. We ask that the above rights and treaties be respected.
I have here a copy of "The Treaties of Canada with the Indians of Manitoba, the North-west Territories and Keewatin", and at page 69 where the Indian chief was discussing the matter with the governor, I read this:
Chief: I hope you will not drop the question; we have understood you to say that you came here as a friend, and represented your charitableness, and we depend upon your kindness. You must remember that our hearts and our brains are like paper; we never forget. There is one thing that we want to know. If you should get into trouble with the nations, I do not wish to walk out and expose my young men to aid you in any of your wars.
Governor: The English never call the Indians out of their country to fight their battles. You are living here and the queen expects you to live at peace with the white men and your red brothers, and with other nations.
Would the minister be good enough to tell the committee what the position of the present government is in regard to these very old treaties which are regarded by the Indians, who were the first settlers, as sacred and binding.
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: In reply to the first question I would say that the Department of Justice has given a decision to the effect that as the Indians are British subjects they are liable to military service. That decision was sustained in a recent court action in the province of Quebec. I am not so familiar with the terms of the early treaties that were signed in the years past with the various bands of Indians but I do know that what I have stated is the legal position with regard to their liability to military service.
In regard to income tax, the Indians are not subject to income tax upon income they derive from their reserve, but if an Indian, for instance, passes through university and becomes a medical doctor or an engineer and practises his profession in an ordinary community outside the reserve, he is liable to income tax.


Mr. WOOD:: I think one matter to which the department should give consideration is the administration of the Soldier Settlement Act on the Indian reserves. As hon. members are aware, the Six Nations Indian reserve is the largest Indian reserve, in population, in the Dominion of Canada. It is in a purely agricultural country, one of the finest townships in the county of Brant. After the last war many of the Indians who had seen service took up soldier settlement lands on the reserve. The same disaster overtook them that overtook many other soldier settlers, and the result is that to-day the crown holds a mortgage or is the creditor on a number of those farms to an amount far in excess of their value. We were discussing the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act the other day, and here is one place where I think that act might have served a definite and useful purpose in securing the adjustment of those debts, but for some reason or other, whether it was because we did not interpret the act aright, or misinterpreted the Indian Act, the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act did not apply to those lands. Many of these farms are to-day abandoned, because it would be impossible for a young man to take over one of these farms at the high prices that were paid for them in the boom years and with the large claim which the crown has against the property, the chattels and real estate. There may be a few who mastered their obligations, but not very many.
Soon Indian veterans will be returning from this war and something should be done to prevent what otherwise might be a terrible disillusionment for the veteran. As it is they will be reluctant to go into any soldier settlement scheme because of the results of

the administration of the Soldier Settlement Act on the Indian reserves. I am aware that the administration of Indian soldier settlement comes under a different department from ordinary soldier settlement, but I do feel that every effort should be made to get this thing cleared up as soon as possible. I happen to be familiar with many of these locations and I know that many of them are excellent farms, but the crown holds a mortgage on them far in excess of the value of the property. We shall probably have to rehabilitate our men when they return from the war, and let us not leave a bad taste in their mouths by failing to clear up the present situation. I would ask the minister to give this suggestion serious consideration and see if something cannot be done in the near future to get this matter cleared up.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It will certainly receive attention. I am grateful to the hon. member for Brant for bringing this matter up. I am not familiar with the details of loans to Indian veterans who settled on the Six Nations reserve, or anywhere else for that matter. I would say, however, that the Indian veterans, whether those on the Six Nations reserve or any other reserve, should receive the same treatment in regard to land settlement as other veterans. I take it that my hon. friend wants me to give him the assurance that the matter will be looked into. I shall be glad to do that at an early day, and perhaps I shall then be in a position to give my hon. friend further information.


Mr. COTE:: I have received some representations from members of the Caughnawaga tribe, which is opposite part of my riding on the other side of the St. Lawrence river, to the effect that the Indians did not receive any preferred treatment in the appointment of the officers who are charged with the application of the Indian Act. They say that in the United States an amendment was made to their Indian Act, possibly about ten years ago, giving precedence to Indian candidates whenever an appointment was to be made by the department administering the Indian Act. I should like to know whether any representations have been made in this respect to the minister, and whether it is considered that this would be applicable in Canada, and to what extent. In the second place, it has happened in several cases that grievances have been expressed by some of my constituents concerning the legal status conferred by the act in behalf of the Indians, members of tribes and resident on the regular reservations. A recent grievance arose from a serious accident which took place on a bridge between the

Supply-Indian Affairs
reserve and my constituency. My constituent was hit by an automobile driven by an Indian, and apparently, even if he has recourse to the civil courts, a judgment would not help him at all. Had the Indian been hit he would have received free medical treatment and hospitalization, but my constituent will have to meet all his expenses himself, in spite of the legal recourse he has against the author of the accident. I wish the minister would say a few words in this connection, because similar cases frequently occur in my riding, and I should like to have the position settled once and for all.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As regards the first part of my hon. friend's question, wherever we can find Indians qualified to do work on the reserves they are given the preference. It may be that on occasion you will find Indians who disagree with the manner in which the preference is administered, but after all the officers of the department have to be in the end, I think, the judges as to the qualifications of any Indian for any particular position. At the present time there is a vacancy being filled in the Caughnawaga reserve, and we have asked the civil service commission to restrict the appointment to someone of the Indian race. The position, I believe, is that of caretaker for one of the buildings. This is the policy of the department, and it is a wise one. The great need which exists for Indians everywhere across Canada is to increase their sense of selfrespect and self-reliance, and this is one way in which useful influences can be directed to that end.
As regards the other question, about the accident on the bridge, I do not know any of the particulars. My officers tell me that a legal point is involved, and perhaps when that is cleared up further, one of the officers can write to my hon. friend and give him what information we have concerning it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
160. Medical-Indian hospitals and general care of Indians, $1,493,980.
Mr. MacINNIS:: Before this item is carried I wish to say a few words with regard to the hospital care of Indians. As the minister is no doubt aware, there has been considerable correspondence between the Indian Affairs branch at Ottawa and the hospitals association of British Columbia in regard to payment for the hospital care of Indians in that province. I believe a delegation from the association visited Ottawa some time during the winter and the subject was talked over. The matter was further discussed earlier, I understand, in British Columbia at
the annual convention of the hospitals association in November, 1942, and the delegates attending the convention were unanimously of opinion that the Indian Affairs branch had failed to reimburse the hospitals for the work done on a basis which would pay the hospitals for the monetary outlay in caring for Indians. Put briefly, the hospitals association of British Columbia and the authorities of individual hospitals contend that there must be payment of at least S3 a day if a hospital is to be reimbursed for the money expended. The Indian Affairs branch, I understand, will not agree to that, and has been paying in some instances 82.50 and in other instances $2.75, and that difference in itself has become an additional subject of contention.
The position as outlined by the hospitals association on January 13, 1943, is as follows. I quote:
1.	Up to the present, each and every hospital which has been called upon to treat Indians has incurred a loss for each patient treated. This condition has been aggravated further lately by an appreciable increase in the cost of pharmaceutical supplies, foodstuffs, general supplies, labour and the enforcement of labour laws, which require staff shifts of not longer than eight hours daily.
2.	Hospitals throughout British Columbia refuse emphatically to discriminate on account of racial origin or religious differences, and insist that all patients should receive equal treatment, regardless of creed or race. They further point out that, contrary to the department's contention, the experience has been that often it costs more to care for Indians than ordinary patients, there being a greater need for isolation, pursuant to contagious and social diseases.
3.	The average basic cost for general ward patients is $3 per diem and that sum is the very minimum for which the institutions throughout British Columbia could attempt to give adequate care. This does not include extras, such as X-rays and so forth.
4.	The position taken by the department that the hospitalization of Indians is cheap does not hold. Experience is all to the contrary, and the hospitals wish to emphasize that it is their duty to protect and improve the health of the Indian, to a degree equal to that afforded other patients. A rate less than that hereinbefore stated simply means that the community at large is made responsible for a cost which is without a doubt an obligation of the department of Indian affairs, whose direct wards the Indians are.
5.	Hospital costs throughout the province have been examined closely by various organizations and the provincial government and all local contracts, including the workmen's compensation board, are at rates of not less than $3 per diem plus extras.
I invite the attention of the committee and of the minister to the next paragraph:
6.	Unless a revision is made all provincial hospitals will be compelled in the future to refuse the admission of Indian patients to their institutions. This may appear a harsh measure,
Supply-Indian Affairs

but as no redress has been forthcoming by the department they are left with no other alternative. Incidentally, every other department of the government of the dominion has recognized the factors hereinbefore enumerated and is paying fees akin to the basic rate outlined, and it is difficult to understand why recognition should be given on the one hand, even when it involves the care of enemy aliens such as the Japanese, and refused to Indians.
A statement, I understand, was forwarded to the minister by the secretary of the British Columbia Hospitals association, E. W. Neel. I am informed, although I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the assertion, that St. Joseph's hospital in Victoria has refused to admit Indian patients. I am informed of that but I do not know whether it is correct.
I have in my hand a statement from Creston, British Columbia, relative to the rates charged by the hospital at Creston for the care of Indian hospital patients, and the share of that bill that has been paid by the Indian department. There are a number of cases here with names given. I will quote a few of them:
January, 1940: Mrs. Susan George, charge for ten days, $25, case-room $5, total $30. The department would not pay case-room but paid $25, leaving the hospital to assume the loss Df $5.
January, 1940: Mrs. Alexander Eli. Hospital charges, 3 days, $7.50, case-room $5, total $12.50. The department paid $7.50, leaving the hospital to assume a loss of $5.
December, 1940: Mrs. George, 13 days, $32.50, case and dressings, $7.50, total $40. The department paid $32.50, leaving the hospital to carry a loss of $7.50.
June, 1941: Mrs. B. Prank, 7 days, $21; other care $7.50, total $28.50. The department paid $17.50, leaving a loss to the hospital of $11.
July, 1941: Mrs. Gregory, 5 days, $15, medicine 50 cents, total $15.50. The department paid S12.50, leaving the hospital with a loss of $3.
A number of other cases are given. In May, 1942, the hospital cared for an Indian baby where there had to be an operation. The amount was $12.50. The department apparently refused to pay at all and consequently the cost had to be assumed by the local hospital at Creston.
I have discussed this matter with the department, and the department has assumed, in my opinion, an attitude that is not very enlightening. In a letter from the department to one of the hospitals in British Columbia the position was taken that if the hospitals insisted on the Indian department paying $3 a day, the department would have to reduce the cost by not sending cases to the hospital which 
formerly went there, or by moving cases from the hospital sooner than had been done previously.
I put these matters briefly before the committee because I think that this is a situation that should be dealt with. One of the stock answers made to the hospital administrators is that, for the purpose of paying these hospital charges, the Indian department has only such moneys as are granted to it by parliament. I submit that this is the time for the minister to ask parliament to grant sufficient money to decently care for the Indians who are given hospital treatment.
I now have under my hand the material for which I was looking. It is contained in a letter to myself from the secretary of the British Columbia Hospitals association, Mr. E. W. Neel, who says:
The department also states that Indians who are in a financial position to meet all or part of the cost of their hospitalization should be required to do so.
I have no objection to that.
This may apply to Indians who live outside the reservations and are no longer the direct wards of the federal government but for the hospitalization of reservation Indians who are the direct wards of the government and who form by far the major portion of Indian patients, the hospitals have no option but to look to the department for payment. In view, however, of the department's statement it would be interesting to know on how many occasions in British Columbia the department has recovered from reservation Indians the cost of their hospitalization or through the local Indian agent has notified a hospital that owing to an Indian's financial position, the hospital should look not to the department but to the patient for the payment of the hospital account.
Only two conclusions can be drawn from the attitude of the department. Either it does not want the same quality of hospitalization given to Indians that is given to other patients whether white or oriental, and this would seem to be indicated from the tone of a letter written by Mr. T. R. Mclnnis, secretary of the Indian branch at Ottawa on September 8 to the Nicola Valley hospital. In this letter Mr. Mclnnis stated_ that "if this branch is forced to pay these higher rates it will certainly not result in increased revenue for the institution concerned as we will have no alternative than to reduce the number of patients hospitalized. It means having to make your patients fit our funds, and we will either keep them out or hurry them out."
I think that is a terrible statement to be made by a civilized government in regard to the hospital care of its wards. This committee should insist that the Indian branch pay the hospitals in various parts of the country for the care of these wards of the government at the rates which are paid by organizations such as sick benefit associations, workmen's compensation boards and so on. Let it be noted that any additional charge which is not

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paid by the government must be assumed by the citizens of the municipality concerned, and I believe this government has more facilities at its disposal for raising the necessary revenue than are available to the municipalities with which I am acquainted in the province of British Columbia. I have in my hand a copy of the Glace Bay Gazette of May 13, 1943, which carries a news item under the date line of Ottawa, May 12. The headline, in fairly bold type, is, "Better Health Plan for Indian Race is Forecast." It is dated Ottawa; I imagine it must apply to Canada, though from the information I have placed on record so far one would not gather that fact. The article states:
Lo, the poor Indian, who has dreamed away the years, will be transformed into a vigorous builder of a new and greater Canada if official hopes are realized.
Well, I do not know just what official hopes they would like realized, but I trust it is the official hopes of the Indian Affairs branch.
Indian affairs medical officers to-day told the story of a vast experiment in human welfare.
It must have been an experiment which they did not try.
If it succeeds-and the preliminary results make scientists' eyes sparkle-120,000 Canadian Indians will have better health. In addition- and just as important-their outlook on life probably will be changed for the better.
Before we can get a changed outlook on life on the part of the Indians I believe we will have to get a changed outlook on life on
the part of the Indian Affairs branch.
From one report, based on extensive studies and written in the light of most modern scientific knowledge, come the following:
What I have read was just newspaper talk,
I guess; this quotation is from the hopeful officials in Ottawa:
"It is not unlikely that many characteristics, such as shiftlessness, indolence, improvidence and inertia

Inertia is not confined only to the Indians.
-so commonly regarded as hereditary traits in the Indian race, may, at the root, be really the manifestation of malnutrition."
Well, whatever the cause, I hope this newspaper article is correct and that it foreshadows a different policy on the part of the department than has been the case in the past. I do not wish to hold up the committee with any further remarks, but I am satisfied that there is a case here which the government cannot refuse to recognize without placing the municipalities in the position that they will have to give inferior treatment to the Indians, or refuse them treatment altogether, or will have to assume a burden that properly belongs to the Indian Affairs branch.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: I listened for a few moments this afternoon to the remarks of the hon. member for Brant. In private conversation with the hon. member he told about the Indian reservation that is in his constituency, and I believe that perhaps the Indians living there enjoy some degree of security. Unfortunately the Indians with whom I have come in contact are not in that happy position. I can only say that I consider the condition of the Indians of northern Saskatchewan to be one of the most appalling things of which I have knowledge. Up in those northern areas these people are living under the most degrading conditions. They have been degraded by the vices of the white men without having the white men's advantages. They have been treated as children and in many cases have become as children because of the treatment that has been meted out to them. Of course these people do not vote. Many hon. members do not have Indians in their ridings, but even if they have it is not considered a matter of great importance to them, simply because the Indians have no voting power. Believe me, however, from any humanitarian point of view I believe the time has come when something more should be said about our Indian people. After all, to-day there are numbers of Indian boys fighting in the armed forces of this country. I saw in the newspaper only the other day that a full-blooded Iroquois Indian had been made a general, I think, in the army of this nation. That, I am sure, will give great satisfaction to Indian people all across the country. And it points out the significant fact that where Indian people are given the advantages received by white people, or those of other races, they are capable of developing in the same way.
I know that to-day many people are very much concerned not only with the immediate winning of the war but with the implementing of the Atlantic charter in years to come. We hear references to what is going to happen to Europe, and what sort of freedom they are to have there. Perhaps Canadians, even before they begin thinking about Europe or any other part of the world, should begin to realize that it is necessary for them to do a little housecleaning so far as the Indian question in Canada is concerned. We are hoping at some time in the future to have the implementation of the Marsh report-at least, we are hoping to have some kind of new order in Canada, under which there shall be at least a basis for security for the people of our country. I submit that there is no time like the present for

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taking into consideration the need for thoroughly reviewing the whole status and position of the Indians. It is many years now since the original treaties were made with the Indians in Canada. In those years we have changed considerably in our ways of thinking. Our whole manner of life has altered,, and I cannot but help think the time is ripe, as I said before, for a thorough revision. Perhaps a conference between government officials and the chiefs of Indian groups in Canada should form the basis for a revision of the existing treaties. We shall neglect our duty as Canadians if in these coming years we fail to give the Indian people in Canada the full advantage of Canadian citizenship, particularly with regard to education and health.
I fail to see why Indian children should not be given exactly the same educational facilities as any other children, and that such facilities should be provided by the government. I fail to see why, in the event of a health scheme being instituted for Canada, it should not be wide enough, sufficiently all-embracing, to include everybody. There should be no bar whatever so far as Indians are concerned.
In one corner of my constituency a new scheme has been recently established. This is not for the setting up of an Indian reserve- we already have one or two of them-but rather a reservation for the Metis people. I am wholeheartedly against the idea. I fail to see why these people should not be treated the same way as any other Canadians. Why should they be segregated? Why place them in the same position as Indians, and thereby degrade them to the same degree? We say the official policy of the government is to increase the self-respect of these people and their ability to provide for themselves. I fail to see how the segregation of the Indians or the Metis people will increase their ability to do this. They should be treated as ordinary Canadian citizens, and be given full responsibility and full advantages. If this were done, we should see a great many of them respond in an admirable manner. I would go so far as to say that as many of those Indian children would respond to decent treatment as would any other group of people in Canada. I see no difference in them whatever, except that for many years they have been relegated to an inferior position, and it has worked a most disastrous wrong upon them.
I have had correspondence recently with the minister regarding some Indians who live on the Kootenay agency in British Columbia. I have no idea why they should have written to me, but I have received communications from them to the effect that they are very unhappy about the way in which the timber

on their reservations is being handled. In his reply the minister states that this particular band of Indians have refused to give their approval to the sale of their timber for over twenty years. But they do not say that. They have gone so far as to send a petition to the Prime Minister, a copy of which I have here. It says:
We the undersigned people of the Kootenay Agency petition you as our sovereign representative and representative of the laws pertaining to our well being granted our people by the late Queen Victoria.
We have demanded an investigation into the underhand methods used by our agent in the disposal of our timber and by unbiased dominion authorities. An investigation has not been forthcoming. We make this appeal directly to you upon the basis of the evidence at a recent inquiry held at St. Mary's Indian reserve on June 2 and 3 by an inspector sent here from V ancouver.
We proclaim our loyalty and our devotion to the furthering of the war effort of our country, and in so doing appeal for public denunciation of the war effort being used as an excuse to rob our people.
We demand through you the removal of our agent who has no sympathy with nor interest in the life of our people.
This is signed by Chief Eustace, Chief Michael, Chief Luke Sam, and several other Indians, some of whom, not being able to sign their names, have made their mark. They also sent a letter to the Department of Indian Affairs, as follows:
_ We, the undersigned Indian people, under the jurisdiction of the Kootenay Indian Agency, petition our Indian Department demanding immediate cessation of timber cutting now in progress on St. Mary's Reserve, pending an immediate investigation of the method used by our agent in disposing of the timber on the St. Mary Reserve.
We declare that the methods used in disposing of the timber were underhanded and our people were subjected to duress in its disposal.
A copy of this petition is being sent to the other groups.
The same signatures appear on this letter. On this particular reservation there are vast quantities of timber, which the minister states are over-ready for cutting. I see no reason why the Indians would object to cutting the timber. They are aware of the fact that timber is needed in' the war effort. They say they are willing that it should be cut, but they have no use for the agent who, as they say, has no sympathy with or interest in the life of their people. Many agents may carry out the letter of the law and the regulations of the department, but they fail completely to have sympathy with and interest in the life of the Indian people. Such a man is not the right type of man to be in charge of an Indian agency.

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I have a store bill received from an Indian *woman, with two children, and on this bill I find that she has purchased a little tea, a few dried apples, some rolled oats, 22 cents worth of cheese and a little bit of puffed wheat at a total cost of $5. Yes, $5 for herself and her two children, to live for a month. I lived once on $12 a month, and, believe me, I have not forgotten what that is like. I fail to see how we as a nation can be self-respecting people so long as we condemn any who live within the boundaries of the country to a life as degrading as this.
In his reply to me regarding these Indians in the Kootenay reservation, the minister said:
We have a right to doubt the statement that the surrender was obtained under duress. As a matter of fact we did not and do not require a surrender or the consent of the Indians to the sale.
He points out that there is an order in council governing this. I still maintain that even if there is an order in council, it is the wrong way to go about the matter. If these people were placed under an Indian agent who was sympathetic with the Indians, and who was willing to be a little more aware of their interests, he could handle the timber situation in such a way that the Indians would be satisfied to sell their timber in the manner required. I am going to ask the minister to make a further inquiry into this particular case, and send the details to me, because I do not think that three chiefs of an Indian tribe, and a great number of their followers, would sign their names to a petition like this if they had a feeling of security and faith in their Indian agent. Whatever the cause is, I do not know, but on behalf of these people I ask the minister to make an investigation and to give me further information in the matter.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. member for North Battleford has not made a very practical approach to the problem she has been discussing. The difficulties encountered when dealing with Indians are largely psychological due to the fact that in a few generations the centuries-old mode of life of the Indian has been completely transformed. In the case of the reserve at Cranbrook to which my hon. friend alluded, I regret that she did not read all of my letter when she read the petition from the Indians.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: I am willing to do so. It was a lengthy letter and I did not want to take the time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The letter fully sets out the particulars. The cause of the difficulty
at Cranbrook was interference by one or two busybodies who stirred up the Indians to action that was against their own interests. This reserve has a considerable amount of timber. This was examined by competent forestry officials who advised that a certain amount of the timber should be cut in order to realize the most out of it. Anyone who is familiar with timber operations knows that you ean leave timber too long; you can leave it so long that it loses all its qualities as lumber. Undoubtedly and unquestionably that is what was taking place on this reserve. We endeavoured to get the Indians to agree to a disposal of part of this timber to an operating company on what the officers of the department considered was a fair basis. Very strict provisions were included in the agreement with the operating company to cover the manner in which the timber should be cut. One provision that I recall was that they could not cut any tree that was less than ten inches in diameter, breast high on the average man. The whole purpose of this was to apply modern and scientific principles to the cutting of timber on this particular reserve. I think I am correct in saying that if these principles are applied there will be for all the years that lie ahead a continuous source of revenue for the Indians from the timber.
Tenders were advertised for, and as I recall the successful tenderer was willing to pay a royalty, or dues, of $3.50 per thousand feet board measure. This would create a fund for the Indians in the reserve. It is true that the Indians did not want to have this action taken, as they had a feeling that their timber was being taken from them. I repeat; they were stirred up to adopt this attitude. It is not difficult on occasion to stir up Indians on matters of this kind. They felt their timber was being taken from them.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: The minister has said that someone was stirring up these people. Personally I have no knowledege of the case, but I have the idea that whoever it was, he was trying to help the Indians because he felt that the Indian agent was not dealing in a proper manner. It was not stirring up the Indians at all.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am coming to that point in a moment. At any rate the Indians resisted, and as a result the timber was deteriorating and losing its value for the Indians on the reserve. It was not desirable in the interests of the Indians, and particularly with the present need there is for lumber, that this condition of affairs should be allowed to continue. It is true the Indians have sent in a petition to the Prime Minister, with a copy
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to myself and evidently a copy to the hon. member for North Battleford. It is not very difficult to get Indians to sign a petition on almost anything you want to bring up. As a matter of fact they like signing petitions It is a notorious fact that Indians, generally speaking, have a sort of love for litigation. They think there is something meritorious in being involved in matters of this kind. AH this has to be taken into account. My hon. friend has accepted the word of the Indians or of her correspondent as to the action of the agent on this reserve.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: Excuse me; I merely asked for an investigation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If my hon. friend did not accept it, then she should have looked into it more closely before bringing it up on the floor of the house.


Dorise Winifred Nielsen: How could anyone accept anything until a proper investigation was made? When I have a petition sent to me the least I can do is to ask for an investigation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think my hon. friend should have examined into the merit behind the petition before she brought it up on the floor of the house and criticized the officers of the department. This matter was fully reviewed and it was on the recommendation of the Indian commissioner for British Columbia that this action was finally taken. I think I should say that in the whole Indian administration there is not a more devoted and more intelligent official than the commissioner for Indian Affairs in British Columbia. I do not say that there may not be times when he will make a mistake, but I know that his whole purpose and effort is to serve the best interests of the Indians.
My hon. friend suggests that the matter should be further reviewed. I do not see that anything would be gained by a further review of the case. I am convinced that we have now before us and have had for some time all the essential facts in this case. I have no doubt that in a few months this agitation among the Indians will pass away. They will receive their royalty on the timber. There is also a strict provision that the operating company shall give first employment to the Indians if they are willing to take it. That would be another source of revenue to *them, and many of the Indians are particularly good at lumbering operations and the like. As I say, they will have available to them the increment that comes from the disposal of the property in the way I have mentioned.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: What has
been realized from the sale of this timber?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Cutting has just started, or it may not have started yet.


Alan Webster Neill: Did the minister mention the name of the reserve of which he has been speaking?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is in the Kootenay agency, near Cranbrook.


Alan Webster Neill: In British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Alan Webster Neill: I want to support the admirable presentation made by the member for Vancouver East in connection with the hospitals in British Columbia. I am familiar with the brief from which he largely quoted, and so far as I know it is substantially correct. The minister said of a previous speaker that she should have investigated the matter before bringing it into the house, but I think the member for Vancouver East and I myself have investigated this matter thoroughly, and the member for Vancouver East was thoroughly justified in making the suggestions which he does, in which I concur. Very often when the interests of the dominion, and the provinces or the municipalities are concerned together, we expect the dominion to get the worst end of the deal. I do not know how it is, but we would rather stick the dominion government than the province or the municipality. In this case it is the other way about. We are being cheated, to use plain bald language, by the dominion government, which refuses to pay its legal obligations and defies us. That means that we, the citizens of British Columbia, have to pay them. The dominion, and that means the citizens of Canada, have the obligation to take care of the Indians. We do not try to avoid that obligation, and we as citizens of British Columbia are prepared to pay our share through general taxaton. That is the right way to do it, taxed by the government within whose jurisdiction the Indians come, but the wrong way to do it, is to cheat the hospitals and make them get into a state of destitution so that they have to come to the general public for subscriptions -we have had to put up money before. The only alternative is to raise the rates unduly on the white people.
What I direct attention to is the utterly illogical statement, made by one government official, that the reason the dominion government could not pay a rate for the Indians comparable with the rate the white people pay was that there were no more funds and there would have to be less sickness. Those were the words the hon. member for Vancouver East quoted. I do not know how you can bring that about simply because there is
fMr. Crerar.l

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no money. We have heard it said that people cannot afford to be sick, and I have heard it said that people cannot afford to die on account of the expense, but it is something new to hear that the Dominion of Canada cannot pay anything but a cut-throat price for the care of its wards in hospital because it has no more money. If that is the case, here and now is the place to remedy that condition. Let the minister say: "In consequence of facts that have come to my attention it will be necessary for me to ask parliament for more money for this purpose," and he would get it. But the statement was actually made by a government official: "There will have to be less sickness." Can you tell me how the Indians are to be less sick ? I myself know the case of one hospital in a town near where I live. They told us: If we did not give this unfair rate we would not get the business. My advice to that hospital board was to refuse to take the Indians in. White people are already lying in the corridors on account of the crowded state of the hospital. What is the alternative? "We will build a hospital of our own," they said. I laughed at that-building a hospital for two or three hundred cases a year. The other alternative was to take the patients out to Nanaimo, fifty-four miles away, over a mountain. The average sick person would have to be taken there in an ambulance, and any one who knows what ambulances cost will appreciate how utterly impracticable that would be when the patient might be only ten days in hospital. They were just trying to run a bluff on us.
The minister said to the last speaker that it was easy for agitators to influence the Indians. That is true. But these are white people who are not concerned at all with agitating. One man referred to, Neill-he is no relation of mine-is described as an agitator. Is anyone who asks that reasonable rates be paid an agitator? What is it the scripture says-"a little more rest, a little more sleep." The average official never wants to interfere with things as they are. Laissez-faire is his sole ambition. When somebody comes along and wants things improved, he is an agitator. All the hospital boards in British Columbia united in supporting this brief, and they asked: Why is the dominion government not paying the same price for Indians as we are paying for our white patients? And now we are told: "You have been stirred up by an agitator." All we are asking is that the dominion government should pay the same rate for Indians as we are paying for our white people. I saw the other day in the paper that the rates in the hospital to which I subscribe, to which I would go if I were sick, have been raised to make
up a deficiency in cost. Yet here is the dominion government insisting on Indians going into hospital at a price below the cost. Then they instance some remarkable hospital in the remote north which, with the aid of unpaid nuns possibly, was able to keep its rates down. But we are dealing with conditions as they are in a town where ordinary labour earns about seven or eight dollars a day, and a young boy or girl of sixteen, sixty cents an hour in a plywood mill and where nurses are working on a three-shift day.
It has been said that they are going to put up a new hospital for tubercular Indian patients near Chilliwack, that they can do it more cheaply there. It is sometimes said that the Post Office Department is run at a good profit. Cabinet ministers boast of that, but they do not tell you that half of the expense is paid out of another item and that some of the revenue comes from the stamps on our cheques, which is not revenue but a tax. Public buildings are all paid out of a separate account, yet they say: Look and behold what the post office is paying. If you investigate it, Mr. Chairman, you will find something along the same lines in regard to the hospitals. In estimating costs, they omit capital expenditure. We are not asking for something outrageous; we are not asking for anything more than is coming to us. We do not ask to be put in a preferred position. The men who drew up that brief for the united hospitals of British Columbia say: We want them to pay the same as the workmen's compensation board pays. That board does not pay more than it can help. It was stated to us when we were making representations about the matter that some of the hospitals were satisfied with this arrangement. I am willing to guarantee that none of them are satisfied. They may be quiescent, taking the attitude: "What is the use of our kicking? We are only a small hospital."
The statement has been made that the trouble has been caused by agitators and the dominion government says: We cannot afford to pay any more because we have not the funds. If that is so, the minister is now aware of it, and if he has not sufficient to pay a reasonable rate he should ask parliament for a further vote. I cannot see why individual people 'in one little community should have to pay for the losses that are caused by the hospital having to take in Indians who may come from twenty miles away. I can see no rhyme or reason in it, and if the minister says that it is because the dominion government has no funds for the purpose, I ask him to bring in a supplementary estimate if necessary for a sufficient sum. That is all we ask for
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that the dominion government pay the cost of maintenance for the Indians in the hospitals to which they are sent.


Mr. DONNELLY:: A committee of which
I am a member has been investigating national health insurance and the possibility of putting on a scheme covering the whole dominion. Is it the intention of the government, if such a scheme is adopted, to include Indians? If so, the estimated cost should be noticed; it is just about twice what it is here.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Replying first to the
observation of the hon. member who has just spoken, no consideration up to the present has been given to the matter of including Indians in any health insurance scheme which may later be worked out.


Alan Webster Neill: Why not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, I am not opposing
the idea. I am simply stating that up to the present, consideration has not been given to it. It may well be that if we embark on a national health insurance scheme the Indians will be included.
On this question of hospital rates in British Columbia, let me make it clear at once, if the hon. member for Comox-Alberni has the impression that I am guilty, that at no time have I referred to those who brought the matter to the attention of the federal government as "agitators"; I have not so described them.


Alan Webster Neill: I did not say so.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Then I misunderstood my hon. friend.


Alan Webster Neill: I said it was represented to
the minister that the matter had been gone into and that the whole thing was due to an agitator in British Columbia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not quite understand my hon. friend. It may be that the department has been too parsimonious with the hospitals in British Columbia. No fault can be found with the hospitals associaton or with individual hospitals for having put before the department and before myself the representations they have made. The demands in respect of medical costs for Indians have been rising steadily. There may be those who say: Well, no matter what the demands are, you should provide a certain standard of medical care for all the Indians across Canada. I recall that this matter was discussed with myself on more than one occasion by the late Lord Tweedsmuir. He made a trip on one occasion to Aklavik, and he thought that our hospital facilities in the far northern country were deficient, that we did not have the proper

hospital facilities there. But when we come to administer the funds voted by parliament we try to get the maximum of results. Certainly if we have x dollars for hospital treatment of Indians and the rate is, say, $2.50 a day, you can care for more Indians than if the rate is $3 a day. I am not just now justifying the department. It may be that our attitude to this matter is not wise. But certainly when you have in mind the tremendous demands for the spending of public money in all directions and the need of maintaining some sort of balance in our economy, consideration has to be given to matters such as this.
As I recall, the rates complained of in British Columbia were $2.50 a day. We have, for most of the hospitals in that province, and I think it will apply very shortly to all of them, raised the rate to $2.75 a day. The hospitals association wished the rate fixed at S3 per day, and I shall be glad, in the light of the representations made here by the hon. members who have spoken to the matter, to take it into further consideration. I think this request has come from all hon. members from British Columbia irrespective of their political affiliations. I might point out, however, that in the operation of our own hospitals, in which we have some experience, we managed to carry them on at a figure substantially below the rate we pay the general public hospitals. For example, we have in British Columbia a hospital at Coqualeetza which was brought into operation about August 1, 1941. It is mainly concerned with tuberculosis. From August 1, 1941, to December 31, 1942, a period of seventeen months, there were 457 patients at one time or another, there were 52,253 hospital days, and the per diem cost was $2.08 per day.


Alan Webster Neill: Did that include capital
expenditure?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, I was just going to refer to that. I intended to make it clear that that does not include items of taxes or depreciation or interest on the money invested.


Alan Webster Neill: Capital expenditures.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Referring to another government operated hospital, that at Qu'Appelle, in Saskatchewan, there, 1,349 pa/tients were treated, with a total of 28.114 hospital days, and a per diem cost of $1.33.


Alan Webster Neill: For what period?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would cover a year, I think.


Alan Webster Neill: Which year?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, probably the last
year for which we have records. It would be the last audited statement.


Alan Webster Neill: What about comparable
wages? Has the minister any record?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We engage the nurses and all other help, and we have to pay them the proper rates in order to retain them. Let me make it clear that I am not putting forward these facts as an argument against the requests made this afternoon on this point. All I wish to say is that in the light of the representations a full review will be made of the matter. At any rate the rate will be $2.75 in British Columbia, and I hope we shall be able to get it raised to $3.


Clarence Gillis: With reference to the Indian situation in Nova Scotia, I am familiar with it up to about three months ago. I carried on considerable correspondence with the department and met departmental officials. The programme in that province is to concentrate the Indians at two particular points, Eskasoni and Shubenacadie. I am not going to say anything about the merits or the demerits of the scheme. What I am interested in is this. You are making good progress in concentrating them at these two points and you run into the priorities board with respect to the necessary materials to build houses in the areas in which you are going to complete your programme. That was the situation up to three months ago. I do not know anything about it beyond that point. All I want the minister to do is to give me a brief summary of matters as they now stand. Has he developed his programme? Is he getting materials for the necessary buildings in order to complete the programme he has in Nova Scotia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That comes under another vote, but I can answer it now. Steps were initiated about two years ago looking to the concentration of Indians in Nova Scotia on two reserves. There were roughly 2,000 Indians scattered over nineteen reserves without proper supervision. Some of the reserves were close to towns and cities and that made it difficult to achieve any real progress with the Indians. They are being gathered together in these two reserves, and that involves the building of houses, schools and teachers' residences, because our aim is to secure teachers who will remain permanently on the reserve and thus acquire influence with the Indians. Tenders have been called for these buildings, and it is not expected that we shall have any difficulty in getting the materials necessary for their construction.


Mr. McCANN:: I suggest that if the minister proposes a change of rates in hospital pay they be uniform throughout the whole dominion. Costs for hospitalization are comparable in all provinces, and it would be poor policy to single out British Columbia or any other province and fix one rate there and another rate in some other province.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: We seem to be having a general discussion on this item, and I should like to direct a few questions to the minister with reference to a matter of some importance. The first question is what attitude the government has taken with reference to the calling of Indians for military service. The minister knows that there has been some discussion as to the exact status of the Indians in the matter of military service. Sessional paper No. 136J, brought down in the house on Thursday, June 24, contains two letters to Indian agents in Saskatchewan. I should like to quote briefly from these. The first letter is from the general superintendent of Indian agencies to Mr. J. R. Favel, Sweet Grass Indian Reserve, Prongua, Saskatchewan. I quote:
Dear Sir:
I have your letter of December 8 with respect to compulsory service of Indians.
In your letter you have pointed out that you are quite positive that Indians, or anyone who is not enfranchised, are not subject to service.
We are not interpreters of the law here and the only reply I can make to this is that in a letter we received from our branch at Ottawa the following was drawn to my attention:-
"The national -war services department has now advised that all Indians must hold themselves in readiness for call for military service (30 daj-s' training). If the Indians desire to avoid this military service, representations must be made by them, individually, when they are called for their medical examination. The representations would 'then be forwarded to Ottawa and would be considered at that time."
Yours truly,
M. Christianson, General Superintendent of Indian Agencies.
The second letter is also from the general superintendent of Indian agencies to Chief and Councillors, Little Pine Reserve, Paynton, Saskatchewan. The letter is file No. 302-5. I will not quote more than two paragraphs:
In this connection I wish to inform you that shortly after I came back to Regina in 1940, I brought this very same matter to the attention of His Honour, Mr. Justice Embury, chairman of the national war services board, and he looked thoroughly into the matter of the enlistment of Indians in the Canadian army. His Honour Mr. Justice Embury informed me that he could find nothing in the treaties of Canada with the Indians whereby they were exempt from military service. At the same time he explained to me that the Indians could
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not be called for military service overseas, but they could be drafted for the army for service in Canada only.
During the last war a number of Indians all over the country were conscripted. At that time the government found that an error had been made and treaty Indians could not be conscripted for overseas service in the army as that promise had been made to them at the time of the signing of the treaties, that is, they could not be conscripted for fighting wars outside of Canada, therefore those Indians who had been conscripted were discharged immediately from the army.
I should like to know first whether that is a correct interpretation, that the Indians can be conscripted for service in Canada, and second, whether they can be conscripted for service abroad. What is the exact legal status of the Indian who is called for service in Canada? As wards of the government, without the full rights of citizenship, does the government contemplate giving them some of the rights of citizenship in view of the fact that they are discharging some of its responsibilities? I should like to have that clarified because a number of Indians have been confused on this question.
I have another question to ask the minister with reference to a matter that was brought up in the house on May 24, as reported on page 2930 of Hansard. I had a question on the order paper as follows:
Has a letter been issued by the superintendent of Indian agencies at Regina, notifying the Indians that only part of the interest accruing from money held in trust will be paid to the Indians during the war?
The answer to that question was:
No. An attempt has, however, been made through inspectors and Indian agents to persuade Indians to forgo temporarily, in whole or in part, the distribution of interest earnings and other moneys held in trust for them.
The minister goes on to explain that the Indians have better opportunities for earning money now, and states that it is not felt that they are in great need of money, some of which is being withheld from them. I have had complaints from Indians in the reserves immediately around Regina that moneys accruing to them from trust funds have been withheld without their consent or consultation with them. That statement may not be correct, but I should like the minister to state to the committee whether or not, in the event of the Indians not agreeing to having this money which is coming to them withheld temporarily, either in whole or in part, it is the policy of the Indian administration to withhold that money on a compulsory basis. When I was in the west some of the Indians told me that they had received this year only about forty per cent of the money which they were accustomed [Mr. T. C. Douglas.!
to receiving in other years and that they had never at any time been asked whether or not they would agree to have any money withheld,
I agree with the minister that there are cases where some Indians have more money than they had before. Some of them have sons in the army or some of the women have husbands and are therefore getting dependent's allowance. But there are other cases where the war has not made much difference. I met one man who has a large family and who is operating a small farm, and his expenses are as great as they ever were. His cost of living is higher and the fact that money is withheld constitutes a severe financial problem for him.
These are the questions I should like to have the minister answer, first of all with reference to the status of the Indians in the matter of compulsory military service, and second, whether or not this money is withheld from them without their consent.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In regard to the first question, the hon. member was not in earlier when I answered a similar question from the other side of the house, but I may briefly repeat the answer. Indians are liable to military service in the same -way as any other citizen of the country. The justice department gave a ruling to that effect. They are British subjects and consequently are treated alike in the matter of military service with all other British subjects The view of the Department of Justice was supported by a court decision not very long ago in the Montreal district.
With regard to the second question, it is not necessary to secure the consent of the Indians to the withholding of funds, as for instance the interest on band funds, unless there is some understanding to the contrary. I have in mind the case where some of the assets of a band may be sold. If the Indians gave their consent to the disposal of the assets on certain terms, those terms would have to be observed, but in the cases my hon. friend has in mind consent is not necessary. The officers of the department, who are wholly sympathetic to Indian welfare generally, in the cases cited felt that the Indians were not in need of the funds at that particular time. If $500 is coming to an Indian as the result of a fur catch, for example, and he gets that $500, I venture to say that in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred the money will disappear within thirty days. It is much better to hold the funds and distribute them to the Indian as his need arises. As a matter of fact that is what is being done in connection with some of the fur reserves that were set up

Supply-Indian Affairs
and are now in operation, with the result that in some cases we have been able to pay an Indian family $20 or $25 a month the year round. It is much better to hold back the money and pay it in monthly instalments of that kind than to give the family a lump sum of $240 or $300.
I can assure my hon. friend that it is the desire of those administering Indian affairs to deal equitably and justly, though perhaps at times it must be done firmly, with the Indians under their administration.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: I want to make just one comment in reference to the minister's reply. Has the government given any thought to the proposition that if these Indians are to be held to be British subjects and therefore subject to the responsibilities of citizenship, they should enjoy some of the rights of citizenship? It seems to me that if in the matter of military service the government now is going to say that the Indians are British subjects, we should give some consideration to extending the franchise to them and giving them some of the privileges of British subjects. That might not be done all at once, but certainly I think we should not ask them to pay the price and accept the responsibility without giving them some of the privileges.
I fully agree with the minister when he says that where a large sum of money is coming to the Indians it is much better to spread the payment of that money over a period of time; I think that is a very wise procedure. The Indians I have in mind, however, and the ones to whom I spoke, had no such sums coming to them. I remember one man who usually had about $100 or $110 coming to him as the interest on some funds held in trust. This year he was given only about $40. He was counting on that money' to buy seed to get ready for spring operations, and $40 was totally inadequate to meet his needs. It seems to me that these matters should be handled on an individual basis rather than under any blanket regulation. There might be certain cases in which the withholding of the money would be the best possible thing for the families concerned, while in other cases it might be a hardship. If the practice of withholding money has been adopted as a general policy I suggest that the department may be working an undue hardship on some of these Indians. It seems to me the cases ought to be investigated and dealt with individually, on the basis of the individual need.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If my hon. friend will give me the individual case he has in mind I shall be very glad to have full particulars
supplied to him. As a matter of fact generally speaking the cases are dealt with individually ratiher than en bloc. With regard to enfranchisement, to which my hon. friend refers, a comparatively small number of Indians are enfranchised each year. There is a peculiar thing about this, however; if the hon. member for Brant were here no doubt he could give us some information on it. On many of these reserves where the Indians could be enfranchised they do not want it, and of course there is no compulsion exercised by the authorities. It may be that in the years that lie ahead the question of compulsory enfranchisement, that is, compulsorily making the Indians citizens of the country in the ordinary sense, may have to be considered. My experience and observation, however, give me the impression that many of the Indians who would be quite competent to exercise the franchise would refuse to accept it. This situation may arise from a mistaken idea of their peculiar status. Some of these Indian bands say, "We are allies of Canada; we are an allied nation within the Canadian nation." All I can say is that it has not been the practice compulsorily to enfranchise any Indians, and that as a matter of fact a great many who would be quite capable of exercising the franchise would refuse to accept it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: It might be wise to give them ah opportunity to avail themselves of it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They have that opportunity now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
169. Field and inspectional service abroad, $80,004.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: May I take a moment of the committee's time to mention that Mr. F. C. Blair who has been associated with the immigration branch for almost forty years has reached retirement age; indeed retirement age was reached a few years ago, but I was able to prevail upon him to remain. I just wish to say that in all my experience with government officials I have known none more conscientious or more faithful in the discharge of his duties. He brought to the discharge of these duties ability of a very high order. I simply wish to pay this tribute to a public official who has rendered long and distinguished service to his country.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, the words so well expressed by the minister find a ready echo on this side of the house. It would have been unfortunate had the services
Supply-Immigration

and record of Mr. Blair gone unnoticed, or without tribute at this time. I join with the minister, and express on behalf of this party an appreciation of the services Mr. Blair has so loyally, so industriously and with such capacity rendered to Canada.
On the matter of immigration, 'has the government given, or is it giving consideration to a policy of immigration for Canada at the close of the war? This is a question which for a considerable time has engaged the attention of people across Canada. We are now in a time of war. We have found that unpreparedness for war has been a costly business, and I think it is only fair to point out that it will be equally costly not only in dollars and cents but in many other respects if, at the dawning of an era of peace, we find ourselves unprepared, as we were unprepared for war. Is the minister in a position to-day to give the committee any indication of what policy the government intends to follow with respect to post-war immigration to Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Consideration is being
given to this problem continuously, as well as to other post-war problems. However, I am sure my hon. friend will recognize that at the present time it is difficult to lay down any definite plans which, it could be said, would be closely followed. We have yet to conclude the war. We have yet to see what sort of peace will be worked out when the war is over. In the light of the conditions then prevailing, and the information that will then be available, more definite decisions can be taken as to what public policy in this regard should be.


Gordon Graydon: I hope the question of
immigration will not be left entirely until the peace treaty has been signed between the warring nations of the world.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I have told my hon.
friend, the matter is constantly under consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Soldier settlement of Canada-
336. Administration of soldier settlement and British family settlement, $542,930.
Mr. FAIR:: I believe it is less than twenty-five years since the conclusion of the last war. We have already fought almost four years in this war. From present indications great war No. 1 was only a patch on the one we are now fighting. While we have been trying to rectify

things throughout the world, I feel we have failed to improve the conditions of some of the victims, if I may so describe them, of the first great war. I refer to the soldier settlers.
I am sorry we have not been given an opportunity earlier in the session to discuss this matter. Again this year we are following the procedure adopted last year, namely, that of crowding estimates to the value of millions of dollars into the dying hours of the session. I should like to read an address delivered by Sir Robert Borden to the Canadian expeditionary force in 1917, and having done so, I shall inquire whether Canada has fulfilled the promises therein set out, the promises by the then Prime Minister to the men who fought the war of 1914-18. He said:
You are men actually facing the enemy day and night. You are suffering greatly from fatigue, over-strain, and lack of rest. The marvel of it is that men could undergo such a strain without breaking; but you have never yet broken, and history will appreciate that in days to come.
You men are about to enter one of the most serious engagements that ever faced the Canadian corps. I cannot, at this moment, give any information as to where this attack will be staged, whether it be successful or not, it is to be borne in mind that it will not be an easy success. ... We feel confident that you will succeed where others failed; for you have never yet failed in anything you have set your hand to, as a Canadian corps.
You can go into this action feeling assured of this, and as the head of the government, I give you this assurance; that you need have no fear that the government and the country will fail to show just appreciation of your service to the country and empire in what you are about to do and what you have already done.
The government and the country will consider it their first duty to see that a proper appreciation of your effort and of your courage is brought to the notice of the people at home, and it will always be our endeavour to so guide the attitude of public opinion, that the country will support the government to prove to the returned man its just and due appreciation of the inestimable value of the services rendered to the country and empire; and that no man, whether he goes back or whether he remains in Flanders, will have just cause to reproach the government for having broken with the men who won and the men who died.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I take it my hon. friend
desires to make a somewhat extended speech. In that event I would ask that the item stand so that we may proceed with the Department of Public Works. I understand that the minister of that department has an engagement which he must keep.
Item stands.

Supply-Public Works



DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC 'WORKS

[Stage Direction]
256. Departmental administration, $194,780.
Thomas Reid: I do not know whether the matter I have in mind comes under this item; but, if not, I hope the minister will see that my remarks are called to the attention of the appropriate minister. In these days of common-sense dress, especially during the summer time, I do not think our protective staff and others in the building should have to dress as they do during the warm weather. The heavy clothing they must wear is not only uncomfortable but, to my mind, it is not healthy. I believe something has been promised by way of relief for the protective staff, but something should also be done for the elevator operators.


Hon. ALPHONSE FOURNIER (Minister of Public Works):: The protective staff comes
under the jurisdiction of the Speaker, and I shall be glad to inform him of what the hon. member for New Westminster has said. We are considering making a change in the uniforms worn by the elevator operators in the building.


Mr. HANSELL:: Last year on the orders of the day I asked the Minister of Public Works if anything was contemplated in the way of flood control works on the Higbwood river which passes through the town of High River, some distance south of Calgary. At that time we were in what is lightly known as the flood season. Snow collects to great depths in the foothills and in the Rocky mountains throughout the southern part of Alberta, and at certain seasons of the year, especially when the warm rains come, the water rushes down the streams and rivers at such a terrific rate that very often towns are in serious danger of being flooded out. That is exactly what happened on that occasion.
Some debris and stones and wood had gathered in 'the bed Of the river sufficiently to change the channel of the river, resulting in the town of High River being under water. Damage to the extent of many thousands of dollars was done. These floods are of such a nature that this town is not only in dangeT of suffering great property damage, but they come with such suddenness that there is also a danger of loss of life. Since that time this community has had to face a further danger. Flood conditions were not so bad this year because some little work had been done, and perhaps the rains came at different times or were not so severe and the ice jams were not as great. The attention of the department was drawn to this matter and I asked the department to place an appropriation in the estimates this year to cover this work.
When I got the estimates this year I found appropriations of millions of dollars but nothing for this work. I have interviewed the minister and the town of High River has sent representatives to Ottawa to interview the government. I should like to give credit to the Hon. Senator Riley for what he has done to urge the government to make an appropriation for this particular work. I scan through the estimates and I find the following appropriations for the different provinces:
Nova Scotia	 $450,900
Prince Edward Island	 45,000
New Brunswick	 80,000
Quebec	 387,500
Ontario	 151,000
Manitoba	      20,000
Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories	 10,000
British Columbia and Yukon		345,300
Nearly $13,000,000 are being appropriated for public works, but not one penny is being provided for this work in the town of High River. I have never asked this department or the government for very much. I will tell the minister now that when I do ask for anything it will be because what I am asking for is positively andi absolutely necessary. I happen to represent a constituency in which there is very little need of federal appropriation, except for wheat acreage reduction bonus or something of that kind. I have very little need to ask the government for appropriations for public works. I do not have any federal government institutions in my constituency except two small customs offices and the regular post offices. Therefore I do not think I am asking too much when I come to the department and state the case of this community which is in grave danger of suffering considerable property damage, if not of being swept out of existence. I do not think I am asking very much when I come to the department for just a few thousand dollars to do this work that must be done on the Highwood river for the prevention of floods.
I hold in my hand an aerial photograph taken by the Royal Canadian Air Force official photographer as his plane flew over the site. I pass this photograph over to the minister so that he may see for himself what the town looks like. The photograph shows only part of the town, but if the minister will look at it very carefully, he will notice under one of the bridges a rushing torrent, with the water mounting almost up to the floor of the bridge. The bridges are still in, despite the fact that the river has overflowed its banks. He will notice, too, that part of the railroad is completely under water, that the highway is completely under water, and that the streets are
Supply-Public Works

completely under water. I am sure he could not tell me where the banks of the river are, because it looks as though there were half a dozen rivers in there, but actually there is only one river, the whole town being under water.
There are one or two important features connected with this flood. It is through this town that the main trunk highway leads from the United States north to the Alaska highway. The one hard-surfaced paved highway that links the United States with the Alaska highway to the north runs through this very town of High River, which, as this picture shows, is completely under water.
Another important consideration that I would bring to the minister's attention is that there is a Royal Canadian Air Force training school adjacent to this community. It is not shown in the picture; it is about a mile to the left hand side of the picture. I do not know what the contour of the land is at the air school, but I have been told1 that the school is in danger at the high-water season.
I know the argument may be: This is not altogether our responsibility; the provincial authorities have some responsibility in the matter. I am not going to deny that, but what I do say is that at a time when floods are so serious it is no use and there is no time to wrangle over responsibility. One thing I am certain of is that this government cannot escape responsibility for floods wherever they may occur in Canada, because floods mean danger to the life of the citizens of Canada.
The provincial government of Alberta have done considerable work this year on this project. I was going to quote from the High River Times a resolution which the town of High River sent on to the provincial government of Alberta commending them for the work they had done, but evidently I did not bring it down with me. The town council of High River passed a resolution and forwarded it to the provincial government commending them for what they had done this year on the project. But this government has done nothing. I understand that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company were willing to make some donation to this work, realizing that their line was in some danger on account of these flood conditions. If a private concern such as the Canadian Pacific Railway Company is willing to contribute; if the engineering staff of the department of public works of the Alberta government is at the disposal of the town of High River, and if the town of High River is itself willing to contribute its share to this project, I think it is 
not too much for me to ask the federal government to bear some share of the financial burden of this work.
We are calling upon our people to do a good deal of sacrificing in these days, and I am wondering now if this government is willing to show the people of this district that it is willing to sacrifice on their behalf. Surely this government cannot escape some responsibility in the matter. As I say, we ask the people to sacrifice, and they do. This community has done its share of sacrificing and of making donations to cause after cause, and in taking its share of victory bonds. I do not want to be too harsh, but I wish to read a clipping from the High River Times of April 1, 1943, -written at a time when the town was in danger from flood this spring. I do not want the minister to consider this article too hot. I want him to recognize as I read it that at the time it was written the people of that community were in danger of losing life and property. The article reads:
Since the outbreak of war this town and district have supported every appeal the federal government has issued. Approximately $600,000 have gone from here for victory bonds.
I pause for a moment to say that was the figure after the third victory loan campaign and it has been very considerably increased by the contributions to the fourth victory loan. I continue the quotation:
Every other form of financial appeal has been similarly supported. This is a relatively prosperous settlement and the federal government receives substantial contribution from our citizens by way of income tax and an infinity of other taxes.
The town and district have sent out hundreds of the best young people to the call of the armed services. Now, in the time of community need Ottawa refuses every appeal to preserve what has been built up.
Yet the consequences of delayed action are likely to be infinitely more costly. If the river is permitted to fulfil its present threats, High River citizens will ibe in no position to buy victory bonds nor pay income tax nor respond to any requests and demands of the federal government. In fact there may easily be the problem of reestablishment of flood victims, a relief problem far transcending the $25,000 which is asked. In addition both governments may face losses in the whole area of the Little Bow in public roads, bridges, homes, farm lands and so on.
At that particular season, namely the spring season, people in the town of High River and district are really facing reality when the ice jam takes place in the river, and it can easily take place when rains begin to come on the mountains and there is still ice in the river. Flood conditions can be extremely serious. The rush of water is bad. It breaks down dams; it uproots trees, and life is in danger. If any lives were lost in a
JULY 23, m3
Supply-Public Works
flood, the government would immediately demand some sort of an inquiry. An inquiry would be made, decisions reached, and apologies made. But apologies would then be too late. If something -is not done conditions may be serious in the future. I must be fair and say to the minister that the Alberta government has done considerable work this year, and we trust that the danger of serious damage by reason of flood may have passed by reason of such work, but still more is necessary. I will not delay the committee farther, but I ask the minister to give me and the committee and the people of that community an answer to the effect that his department will consider placing in next year's estimates, in plenty of time, an item of twenty or twenty-five thousand dollars for this work. I know what happens with these estimates. I know that a department likes to place a number of items there; that they go before the treasury board and that the board take out their blue pencils and mark out this and mark out that and mark out something else. I do not know who the members of the treasury board will be next year, whether there will be any change, but I urge the minister to include this item in next year's estimates and impress upon the board with all the determination, persuasiveness and enthusiasm of which he is capable, that the item for this particular purpose shall be left in. Can I get an assurance from the minister that some consideration will be given along this line?


Alphonse Fournier: I would be the last man to blame the hon. member for Macleod for explaining the flood situation at High River. If the same condition existed in my riding, probably I would make the same speech as he has just made. I really sympathize with these people, and I have received representations on their behalf from the hon. member and the senator of that district. I am glad that we agree that these damages do not fall under the responsibility of the federal government. We have no jurisdiction over mountain streams or floods. I was most sympathetic when the hon. member spoke to me about this, but I could not find any way to have an estimate placed in the present vote.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: The government controls all the money.


Alphonse Fournier: Were this department to provide estimates in respect of all damages caused by floods we would have to meet a considerable number of requests. I might point out that in the last two or
three weeks there was a flood in the province of Quebec which caused damages amounting to over a million dollars.


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Chairman, might I interrupt? I am not asking the minister to reimburse the citizens of High River for damage done; I am asking for an appropriation to carry on the work of directing the channel of the river so that floods will not occur again. I believe that, if the minister does not quite understand the situation, his deputies and engineers are well acquainted with the facts. I repeat that the citizens of High River do not ask for any compensation from the department because their homes were damaged, the cellars flooded, the mains broken up; they are asking only for an appropriation for work to be done in the river so that the channel will be safeguarded.


Alphonse Fournier: Were I to try to comply with the request, I would have to comply with requests made from other parts of the country where they have floods. My engineers, who understand the situation, inform me that we have absolutely no jurisdiction.


Grote Stirling: Is this a navigable river?


Alphonse Fournier: No; it is a mountain stream.


An hon. MEMBER:: It is a creek.


Ernest George Hansell: It is no creek.


Alphonse Fournier: Although I am most sympathetic, I could not commit the department or the government to promising that we shall have an estimate next year for this purpose. I believe certain grants have been made for protection works along rivers; but since the beginning of the war it has been the policy of the government, and it has been demanded by all opposition parties, that civil estimates should be reduced as much as possible. This year there is a decrease of $405,000. I do not feel at liberty to start increasing at this time our civil estimates. It would be absolutely contrary to the policy of the government, and I do not believe I would receive the support of the opposition were we to come in with large estimates for other things at the present time.


Gordon Graydon: Is that a factor which is usually taken into consideration?


Alphonse Fournier: That is what I am trying to take into consideration in preparing my own estimates. Perhaps I am wrong. I would rather vote large sums of money to all constituencies, were I at liberty
Supply

Public Works

to do so, but I do not think I would receive the support or approval of the house if I tried to change the policy at the present time.


Ernest George Hansell: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-British Columbia-
266. Dominion public buildings-improvements and repairs, $55,000.
Gordon Graydon: Are there any capital expenditures on public buildings?


Alphonse Fournier: No. We are spending money only for maintenance, repairs, alterations and salaries.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-General!}'-
269. Experimental farms and science laboratories-replacements, repairs and improvements to buildings, $80,000.
Gordon Graydon: What does the item mean by "replacements"? Are any new structures covered by the item?


Alphonse Fournier: There are no buildings to be erected, unless they are in such a condition that we have to replace them. There are some buildings that no longer fill the needs. This is to provide for replacements, repairs, improvements to buildings on various experimental farms, and science laboratories throughout the dominion.


Gordon Graydon: There are no new
buildings?


Alphonse Fournier: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-
270. Flags for dominion buildings, $8,000.
Gordon Graydon: Is this for flagpoles as well?


Alphonse Fournier: No; just the flags.


Gordon Graydon: There was an interesting item in one of the other estimates that dealt with flagpoles, and I hope it is not being duplicated in this department, which the minister says is so economical.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-
272. Veterans' hospitals-Repairs, improvements and alterations, $60,000.
Gordon Graydon: Is any of this for Christie Street hospital?


William Earl Rowe: A replacement there would be in order.


Alphonse Fournier: There is an amount of S8,500.


Gordon Graydon: For Christie Street?


Alphonse Fournier: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch-
Maintenance and operation of graving docks, locks and dams, etc.-
2SS. Selkirk-repair slip, $3,470.
Gordon Graydon: This looks like an appropriate item for Selkirk-a repair slip.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is a poor prophet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: We wish to take private bills at eight o'clock
to-night, and therefore I move that the committee rise and report the resolutions and ask leave to sit again this day.
Resolutions reported, read the second time
and concurred in.
At six o'clock the house took recess.

Supply-Public Works
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1943-44
A message from His Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1944, was presented by Hon. J. L. Ilsley (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 88, for the relief of Leo Guay.-Mr. Tomlinson.
Bill No. 110, for the relief of Jean Sylvia Murley.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. Ill, for the relief of Gertrude Mantha Hore.-Mr. Fulford.
Bill No. 112, for the relief of Claire MacLaren Hunter Barlow.-Mr. Ross (St. Paul's).
Bill No. 113, for the relief of Mary Constance Helena Keys Bates.-Mr. Claxton.
Bill No. 114, for the relief of Margaret Anne Richards Johnstone-Mr. Whitman.
Bill No. 115, for the relief of John Whitehead Casement.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 116, for the relief of Elaine Alice McCormick Desrosiers.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 117, for the relief of Marion Mathilda Heversage Jost	Hooper.-Mr. Whitman.
Bill No. 118, for the relief of Phyllis Beatrice Barnett Woodham.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 120, for the relief of Ethel Wend-man Lebenstein.-Mr. Boucher.
Bill No. 121, for the relief of John Preble Macintosh.

Mr. Abbott.
Bill No. 122, for the relief of Sonia Liben-stein Kolber.-Mr. Whitman.
Bill No. 123, for the relief of Gilberte Piche Ouimet.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City).
Bill No. 124, for the relief of Irene Maud Pardellian Wright.

Mr. Maclnnis.
Bill No. 125, for the relief of May Gertrude Russell McCarthy.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 126, for the relief of Geraldine Charlotte Wrangel.-Mr. Abbott.
Bill No. 127, for the relief of Anne Marie Garon Brown.-Mr. Claxton.
Bill No. 128, for the relief of Theodore Panos.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City).
Bill No. 129, for the relief of Glendon Malcolm Robert MaeCallum.-Mr. Claxton.
Bill No. 130, for the relief of Pierre Henri Honore Pare.-Mr. Casselman (Grenville-Dundas).
Bill No. 131, for the relief of Beatrice Belodubrofsky Schiller.-Mr. Mcllraith.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Chief engineer's branch-
Maintenance and operation of graving docks, locks and dams, etc.-
285. Snagboats, $49,745.
John Ritchie MacNicol: When this item was up last year I asked the then Minister of Public Works what effort was being made to have the snags taken out of the Athabaska river between Waterways and Chippewyan. That river had many snags in it, roots and butts of trees lying in the water, which caused a great deal of damage to the boats going down it; frequently the bottoms of either the barges or the towboats were damaged. Has the department any appliance on the Athabaska river for removing these snags?


Alphonse Fournier: We had the engineers of the department investigate the complaint in regard to snags on the Athabaska river, and after we received their report we had some dreding done which helped to relieve the situation. We have no snagboat on the Athabaska river; the only two snag-boats we have are on the Fraser and Skeena rivers in British Columbia. We have received no complaints lately about snags, though we communicated with the different companies operating on the Athabaska river. If the situation warrants any action, I am sure the department will do its utmost to remedy any difficulties.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If there is not a vote for removing the snags from the Athabaska river then the department should have one.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch-
290. Generally, $20,975.
Gordon Graydon: Are there any specially large items under this vote, described as "generally"?


Alphonse Fournier: The largest
amount would be for the Portage du Fort bridge, an interprovincial bridge between Quebec and Ontario, amounting to 83,500, and an amount of 87,000 for the Perley bridge at Hawkesbury. Those are the two largest.


Gordon Graydon: Why does the minister build his items in this fashion? I notice that he has an item of only $3,050 for bridges and approaches in Ottawa, but under this general item he has these two larger expenditures. In order that the committee shall be fully
Supply-Public Works

informed of the details I do not think the minister should follow a system which, in fact, is not really a system at all.


Alphonse Fournier: It is a system which existed long before I came to the department.


Gordon Graydon: That is scarcely a real answer.


Alphonse Fournier: It could not be excused, of course, if it is not a correct practice. The officials have not changed their minds up to now. However, I can give greater detail with respect to this vote.


Gordon Graydon: The point which concerns me is that in this general vote there are amounts larger than the amount voted for Ottawa bridges and approaches.


Alphonse Fournier: I see an item here amounting to $150 for the Calumet bridge, and-


Gordon Graydon: The minister has missed my point entirely. I am not desirous of having these small amounts placed on record, but I am desirous of having amounts specified when they are greater than the amounts contained in detailed items. I cannot quite see why the committee is not entitled to have these larger amounts in detail, rather than in bulk form.


Alphonse Fournier: Perhaps the leader of the opposition is right in what he says, but there are only two items larger than the item for Ottawa, and they are the ones I have mentioned.


Gordon Graydon: I have no complaint so far as the smaller items are concerned; in fact I think it is quite proper that they be submitted in bulk; but I still fail to see the wisdom of detailing the item for Ottawa, and then placing these larger items in a bulk vote. I raise this point as a caution to the minister that when he brings his estimates down again-if he has that opportunity-he ought to see that the procedure I have suggested is adopted.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall call it to the attention of my .officials.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ontario
[Stage Direction]
295. Port Maitland-dredging-(revote, $12,800), $21,100.
Harbours and rivers generally-for maintenance of services, no new works to be undertaken, $130,000.
Mr. SENN:: I notice in this item an amount for dredging at Port Maitland, part of which is a revote. Is this work completed? The

summer is fairly well advanced, and I know a dredge was there waiting to do the work. I ask this question because a large amount of material is being removed from the bed of the river, and along the harbour there is a breakwater behind which there is a certain amount of filling to be done. I took this matter up last fall with the department, but owing to the fact that the dredge was not properly constructed to force the dirt over the retaining wall I was told the work could not be done. Has any further consideration been given to the matter?


Alphonse Fournier: I am informed that the contract will be completed in about a month's time, and this amount is for the completion.


Mark Cecil Senn: I understand that. I think there is enough material removed from the bed of the river to fill it in. At present it is being thrown into the lake. It is essential that this work should be done, namely, that of filling in behind the retaining wall, because there is nothing behind that wall to hold it. It is just standing under its own strength. On the other hand, if it had dirt behind it to keep it from any possible buckling in, it would be much better. I was told at the time that owing to the construction of the dredge which, I believe, opened at the bottom and let the material drop into the lake, it was not possible to do the work. The board of trade and chamber of commerce of the village of Dunn-ville have been anxious to have this matter looked into.


Alphonse Fournier: I am informed that we are saving enough filling to make the backfill behind the retaining wall. That will be done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch-
S00. Telephone service at Ottawa, $100,000.
Gordon Graydon: There is a very large
increase in telephone service in Ottawa, largely owing, of course, to war-time conditions. I fancy the increase in the number of lines and the service in governmental departments has increased many times over and above the normal peace-time service. Has the government made any agreement with the telephone company for any special rates, in view of the large number of services installed?


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is to pay the cost of the telephone services maintained in the government departments in Ottawa, but it does not cover telephones in the war departments.

Supply-Public Works


Gordon Graydon: Does the government get a special rate in view of the large amount of service they take?


Alphonse Fournier: We have a special rate which is much lower than the ordinary business or residential rate. The residential rate is S3.37 a month; private branch exchange, $3.97; office, $4.84. In September, 1939, we had 1,900 telephones in Ottawa; to-day we have
8,000.	Three-quarters of these telephones are used by departments primarily engaged in military matters. Then it has been necessary to make thousands of transfers of telephones within the same buildings and also to new buildings where departments have been assigned space. Under the war appropriation we had an item of $300,000 for telephones. This vote takes care of 2,060 peace-time telephones, whereas the $300,000 vote takes care of the remainder.


Mark Cecil Senn: When I first came to Ottawa the telephones in the members' offices were kept connected during the recess. It is of great convenience when a member comes to Ottawa during the summer months to be able to go to his office and make any appointments he may want to make with departmental officials. But to-day our telephones are cut off and we cannot get our work done as expeditiously. It should not cost very much to leave these telephones connected for the remainder of the year.
Mr. MoCANN: The matter which the hon. member for Haldimand referred to is the very matter I wished to speak to myself. Telephone service apparently comes under the Department of Public Works. As the hon. member has said, we are here for approximately six months in the year and those members who are close to Ottawa and have to make visits here during the recess would find it convenient if their telephones were still connected. I suggest to the minister that the matter of telephone service in the House of Commons should be in the hands of the Speaker or the Clerk of the House. I think either one of these gentlemen would exercise reasonable care and good judgment as to what telephones should be left connected.


Gordon Graydon: May I join with the two hon. members who have spoken. It has proved most inconvenient for many members when they come to Ottawa during the recess to find their telephones not connected. Does this vote cover the ordinary service charges, or does it cover long distance calls as well?


Alphonse Fournier: This is for service only.
In connection with the other matter, if an hon. member expects to spend any time in Ottawa during the recess, all he needs to do is to apply to the Clerk of the House in order to have his telephone connected. In years gone by we spent as much as three or four thousand dollars a year in order to keep the telephones connected in all the rooms.


Gordon Graydon: There is a feeling abroad that a lot of reckless long-distance telephoning is done by government departments, and I suggest that the minister check in his own department. However, I do not suggest that his department is the subject of this complaint. It is an easy thing to form the habit of calling long distance if the government is paying the bill. The long-distance telephone should not be used with reckless abandon in order to make calls from one end of the country to the other, perhaps not always on government business, although I make no such charge.


Alphonse Fournier: Long-distance
calls are paid for by each department and we have no control over calls other than those made by our own department. The Department of Public Works is carrying on works and repairs from Halifax to Vancouver and, when emergencies arise, the long-distance telephone is probably used. I do not know that there is any extravagance in this connection.


Gordon Graydon: Would it be possible for a person in the minister's department to make a personal long-distance call?


Alphonse Fournier: A list of calls is made up every month and I believe the object of each call must be stated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-
Construction, repairs and improvements-public buildings-*
Nova Scotia-
502. Shelburne-Public building additions, $7,000.
Gordon Graydon: May I ask the minister what this public building is used for and why the addition is being made?


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is required to provide for the construction of a one-storey brick addition thirty feet long by eighteen feet wide at the rear of the building for the purpose of providing increased accommodation for the Post Office Department.


Clarence Gillis: Last session I inquired of the minister and the Postmaster General whether it would be possible to get an amount in the
Supply-Public Works

estimates to provide a suitable post office building in a town of 12,000 to 13,000 people in my constituency in place of the ramshackle building that is now being used for a post office at Dominion, Nova Scotia. It is a disgrace to the name of post office. The minister stated at the time that it was not the policy, for the duration of the war at least, to do any new construction or make repairs that would involve considerable expenditure. In view of this vote I wish to ask the minister if the departments have changed their policy. If so, does it leave the door open for the redress of the grievance I raised last session in connection with the disgraceful conditions at the post office building in the town of Dominion, Nova Scotia.


Alphonse Fournier: It is the policy of the department not to build new post offices during the war. We never spend money for post offices without a request from the Post Office Department. They needed additional space in Shelburne, and I have here a letter which formed the basis of our decision. The chief superintendent of the post office service made this recommendation:
The postmaster at the Shelburne post office finds it increasingly difficult to maintain an efficient and satisfactory service. This is due to the ever-increasing volume of postal business undertaken at this point and the limited working space which the postmaster has at his disposal.
One of the chief reasons for the increase in the volume of business is due to the strength of army formations stationed at this centre and, in view of the presence of these military units, it is very essential that the efficientcy of the postal service be maintained.
Last year the Department of National Revenue was good enough to loan to this department a room formerly used by them as an examining warehouse. Recently, however, they were obliged to ask for the return of this room in view of increased customs activities at this point.
Taking all these factors into consideration it is apparent that there is no alternative but to request the erection of an addition to this building and in this connection I beg to attach a sketch showing the proposed addition.
As the necessity for this additional space is in a great measure due to the presence of military units, it is felt that the cost of the work of the addition could properly be charged to war appropriation.


Clarence Gillis: I am not quarrelling with this vote at all. I approve it, but I am trying to point out exactly the same conditions obtain in the post office at Dominion. There is a lack of space, and inefficient service on account of that lack of space, in the building called the post office, a building that is a disgrace to the postal service. I dropped the matter last session after the minister had assured me that it was not the intention of the department for

the duration of the war to make any expenditures in that direction. This vote is a departure from that policy, and I am inquiring if the road is now open to having repairs made at other places where they are badly needed, or else does the change of policy apply only to certain parts of the country?


Alphonse Fournier: We never make alterations of this kind unless the Post Office Department recommends them and they are helpful to the war effort. I do not know the details of the case my hon. friend has put forward. It has not come to my knowledge.


Clarence Gillis: It has come to the department's knowledge forcibly on more than one occasion, but not while the minister has held that porfolio.


Alphonse Fournier: I shall look into the matter to see if something should be done, but I can give no assurance to the hon. member without having all the facts before me.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch
[Stage Direction]
Dredging-Nova Scotia
[Stage Direction]
507. Canso-To purchase and repair wharf,
Clarence Gillis: I understand that some investigation has been carried on by the engineering branch of the Department of Public Works into the possibilities of building a causeway across the strait of Canso. Is anything being done in that direction? If there is such a possibility, expenditure on wharves might be unnecessary, because a causeway across the strait of Canso would alter the whole present set-up and much of it would be eliminated. Is it the intention of the department to go ahead with the causeway in the near future? Is the matter being seriously considered?


Alphonse Fournier: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch-Dredging-Ontario-
509. Grand river-Final agreed contribution to improvements; the Grand river conservation commission to discharge the crown from all claims whatsoever connected therewith and to undertake to pay to the dominion government, upon receipt thereof, 37 J per cent of net proceeds of any sale of lands and buildings, of any refund of money® from the Canadian Pacific Railway and of any moneys realized from capital investments, $59,325.45.
John Ritchie MacNicol: This amount refers to
the cost of the building of the Shand dam, does it not?


Alphonse Fournier: Right.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Three or four miles north of Fergus. How much has the government contributed1 as its share of the cost of the Shand dam?


Alphonse Fournier: Is the query
concerning the amount paid by the government toward this project?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes.


Alphonse Fournier: It is $769,318.68, or up till March 31, 1941, the figure was $709,993. This is the final payment.


John Ritchie MacNicol: What is the total amount the government has already paid out?


Alphonse Fournier: It is $709,993.23. This amount of $59,325.45 is the final payment on the agreement.


John Ritchie MacNicol: This afternoon the hon.
member for Macleod made some reference to flood-proofing the High river in Alberta. The Department of Public Works will now have, in the flood-proofing of the Grand river, an example of the benefits of flood-proofing rivers. There would have been a large flood this year on the Grand river but for the Shand dam.


Mark Cecil Senn: Unfortunately there was.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Shand dam prevented this spring a flood in the Grand valley which, the press of the valley stated, would have cost a very large sum of money. So that the money expended on this operation, which completes the government part of the Shand
dam, is money well spent. The Ontario government have put up just as much. They were to pay 37^ per cent too. The municipalities of Brantford, Galt and the rest went together to pay the remainder. In my opinion the government should compile a circular pertaining to the construction of the Shand dam, its cost, use and benefits, and send it to municipalities which suffer through the overflowing and flooding of other rivers, in the hope that, as an after-the-war work, they, too, may set up an authority much as the Grand river people have done to save themselves great losses. I heard the minister say this afternoon that the overflowing of some river in his province this spring set the community back about a million dollars. A million dollars would go a long way toward flood-proofing any ordinary river.


Mark Cecil Senn: Would the minister give the
total cost of the Shand dam? While I am on my feet I may say that the Grand river is naturally flooding worse from year to year as the forest is disappearing; the snows disappear more quickly and the water runs out faster. I am not positive yet that the Shand dam is going to do all that the hon. member for Davenport claims for it. The flood was fairly serious this year. The dam has beeri completed for only a year or two, and as the hon. member suggested, it will, I believe, be a good thing if the government keep very close tab on what happens in that locality. The Grand river watershed is one of the most fertile places in Ontario. Will the minister state what is the total cost and what the receipts are to be from the Canadian Pacific Railway and other sources?


Alphonse Fournier: The cost of the scheme was estimated at $2,000,000, but the real cost is $2,051,516.49. Of that amount 37% per cent was paid by the Ontario government, or $715,000; 37% per cent by the dominion government, or the same amount, and 25 per cent by the municipalities, or $500,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The dam apparently cost $2,000,000, including easements.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch-Dredging- -Ontario-
509. Port Maitland-Repairs to west pier, $55,000.
Mark Cecil Senn: I would remind the minister that this work is very necessary. The east pier is in equally bad shape.


Alphonse Fournier: This amount is to be expended as a result of the winter survey
Supply-Public Works

which was made there. We have a vote in the ordinary estimates, and this supplementary is to complete the work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-
512. War risk insurance-subject to allocation by the treasury board, $270,000.
Angus MacInnis: Could we have some light on this item? My understanding of war risk insurance was that it was insurance the government was providing which private companies could not provide because they could not assume the risk. I should like to know what the amounts are comprising this $270,000, how they are placed and where, and any other information the minister has on the subject.


Alphonse Fournier: The $270,000 is to provide for payment of war risk insurance on properties under the jurisdiction of the department. These properties are valued1 at approximately $199,067,189 and are insurable for ninety per cent of the valuation, or $179,160,470. The premium is fifteen cents per $100, making a total of $268,740, or, in round figures, $270,000. The valuations are:
Harbour and river works	 $83,413,834
Public buildings outside Ottawa... 61.184,048
Public buildings at Ottawa	 47,559,409
Expropriated properties, Ottawa... 731,108 Furniture in rented quarters, Ottawa 1,211,103 Furniture in rented quarters outside
Ottawa	 2,362,927
Government telegraph branch property	 104,760
National Art gallery, works of art..	1,650,000
Canadian War memorial collection..	850,000
The issuance of this insurance was authorized by the War Risk Insurance Act, 1942, and by order in council P.C. 2/8917 of September 30, 1942.


Angus MacInnis: If there is a loss under the war risk insurance, who pays that loss to the government?


Alphonse Fournier: I will admit I am not conversant with the act. The Minister of Finance put the bill through the house and, when his estimates are up, I have no doubt he will give the information.


Angus MacInnis: But this is an item in the minister's estimates and I think he ought to have information on any item of his. It seems strange that the government should insure buildings and pay the insurance itself if there is a loss. Does the government carry ordinary insurance on its buildings?


Alphonse Fournier: No.


Angus MacInnis: To whom is this $270,000 paid?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It comes back to the government. If the government puts insurance on one of its buildings and the building is destroyed, the government is the beneficiary.


Angus MacInnis: But how can the government be the beneficiary when it must pay the loss incurred? If the government pays the insurance to itself, where does the benefit come in? I admit I may be dense about this, but I do not think I am the only one, judging from the information I have received.


Alphonse Fournier: I will call the attention of the Minister of Finance to the questions asked by the hon. member. I admit I have not made a study of the subject. I know an order in council was passed in 1942 and we are committed to the amount. I would not even say that it is a matter of bookkeeping, because I do not know. I would rather have the Minister of Finance give the explanation.


Angus MacInnis: It is a strange situation. Here we have an item of $270,000, and not a minister can tell us why it is there or how it is to be explained.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend should recall that war risk insurance covers not only public buildings, for which this premium provides, but a vast number of private buildings.


Gordon Graydon: What does the minister mean by private buildings?


Angus MacInnis: Whose private buildings?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Factories and warehouses in a city like Halifax, and private structures as against publicly-owned buildings. The premiums on all these properties are paid into a fund under the act, and what happens is this. If a government property is destroyed, the government collects the amount from the fund, and in that event the private owners who had taken out war risk insurance under the act would be paying a part of the loss in the premiums they paid.


Angus MacInnis: Is the minister telling the committee that the government is putting war risk insurance on private property in Halifax?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. The private owners pay it.


Angus MacInnis: Then, if the private
owners pay, how is there an item in these estimates for it?


Alphonse Fournier: War risk insurance applies to nearly all private property in the country and the private owners pay premiums into the fund. The government

Supply-Public Works
also pays its premiums into the fund. If any damage occurs to a private property, the owners are paid compensation out of the fund, and if we suffer damages in our properties we receive from the common fund the amount of the damages incurred. That is the explanation.	[DOT]


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: This is the government premium for war risk insurance on government buildings?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Gordon Graydon: It is more than that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief architect's branch-Special-
Construction, repairs and improvements-[DOT] Public buildings-
5IS. Toronto postal station "A"-Improvements (revote)-further amount required, $9,000.
Thomas Langton Church: I wish to say a few words on this item. My colleague here has been complaining that I have not said a word all day. I want to point out to the minister the deplorable conditions at the terminal "A" Toronto post office. We have no post office there except a part of the union station, which was to be only temporary, although the receipts are $9,000,000 a year. This policy of continually patching up the terminal "A" postal station is intolerable. The business men are complaining that they cannot get adequate service. The government erected a large post office building on the west side of Bay street and when the war started, they gave it to the ordnance corps. The ordnance corps should move out of this new postal unit, because the city gave the whole of the exhibition grounds to the army, and there are huts also of the Royal Canadian Air Force along the waterfront.
The time has come to stop this patching up in connection with the post office. The post office in Toronto is a public utility and modern conditions should prevail there. Does the government think the Bell Telephone or a gas company or the hydro could do business in a building such as terminal "A"? People cannot get the service to which they are entitled. There is a large volume of business carried on by the post office, and the platform and trucks are laden with postal matters, first-class, second-class and third-class mail. They simply need this new postal building. From the point of view of labour also, especially at Christmas time, the present state of affairs is intolerable. The last time his estimates were up the Postmaster General promised that the army would move out, but they have not done
so. Let the army move to the exhibition grounds. The post office cannot do business as it should and the result is that mail is delayed. It is a situation that can no longer be tolerated and I urge the minister to do something about it. Here we have $9,000 for temporary repairs or something of that sort, and in the main estimates $20,000, and last year, $72,000 for repairs to terminal "A." That sort of patching up cannot go on any longer. I ask the Minister of Public Works what he is going to do about the matter. Has he ever visited this property, to see the conditions that exist? Has he ever seen the conditions under which the mail is received and distributed in Toronto, as a result of which the people in the residential districts get only one delivery a day, while the business men down town are also all complaining? The staff and men are splendid. If you mail a letter in Ottawa on Thursday you will be lucky if it is delivered in Toronto on Monday.
The minister was able to construct two wharves at Burlington and another at Oakville, which are not used much except by a few yachts at the latter place, and surely, instead of this patchwork scheme, he could give the citizens of Toronto, who contribute over $9,000,000 in revenue, a little better postal building for service. There should be an order issued to the army to get out of this building, which is in the area of the harbour improvements. The time has come when they should move out. I pass there often and see a great many wagons and trucks going into that ordnance building, while the mail is all out on the platform at the depot. I ask the Minister of Public Works and the Postmaster General to look into the situation and have the army move out immediately, because the postal authorities, who render fine service, cannot handle the business properly in the fall of the year.


Alphonse Fournier: This is a rare
occasion, in that the Postmaster General and the hon. member for Broadview agree. I have received representations from the Postmaster General asking that the ordnance branch of the defence department clear out of the Toronto terminal and that the postal authorities be installed' there, so that we are advising national defence to erect another building or follow the suggestions made by the hon. member, and vacate the premises. We hope that in the near future the post office will occupy the whole of the building.


Thomas Langton Church: The minister is a lawyer,
and there should be an engineer at the head of the public works department. Eaton's or
Supply-Public Works

Simpson's would not tolerate that sort of thing. The minister has never visited the property, to see the conditions that exist. I do not believe any lawyer should ever be Minister of Public Works. Eaton's would not have a lawyer in charge of their construction work. A lawyer has to do with legal business, not with public works, and after all this a public utility and service should be the key. The conditions I have seen there at Christmas time are disgraceful, with eight or ten thousand employees handling mail. I ask the two ministers to try to clean up the situation before the fall.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief engineer's branch-Special-
515. To provide for claims and other expenses in connection with unemployment relief projects, $45,000.
Gordon Graydon: I take it that these must be overdue accounts from some previous period, because I cannot quite conceive that in 1943 we. would want to appropriate any money for unemployment relief projects.


James J. Donnelly: Shall the item carry?


Gordon Graydon: No, Mr. Chairman.. I
am going to suggest that in spite of your desire for speed, at least the minister be given an opportunity to reply to my question.


Alphonse Fournier: This is a carryover. We had some dispute over the claims of two companies in Quebec who had the contract for the construction of the section of the Quebec intercepting sewer undertaken in 1939 as an unemployment relief project and completed in November, 1942. Ini full and final settlement the contractor Marcotte is to receive $32,098.25, and the contractor Auclair is to receive $12,901.72. When it came to settling the balances there was some difficulty. Now our engineers and their engineers have made a valuation and these are the amounts we believe should be paid.


Gordon Graydon: There is no such project going on at the moment?


Alphonse Fournier: No; it is complete.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
87. Departmental administration, $162,853.
Herbert Alexander Bruce: I should like to say a word in regard to the request made by the hon. member for North Battleford that the minister take notice of the publication in the Toronto

Evening Telegram of an article by Max Eastman, which had been published previously in the Reader's Digest, and her suggestion that action be taken under the defence of Canada regulations. I am at a loss to understand how a request of this kind could be made logically by one who has been demanding in this house from time to time freedom of speech and freedom of the press. I just wish to say that there is no newspaper more loyal to the institutions of this country and to Canada as a whole than is the Evening Telegram, and I hope the minister will disregard the request of the hon. member for North Battleford.
Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): I can only say that this article has been referred to the law officers of the department, whose experience in these matters has been long and varied. As yet I have not received any report from them. I am sure they will take note of the hon. member's testimonial to the loyalty of the Evening Telegram.


Gordon Graydon: I hope the minister is not taking too seriously any suggestion that the law officers of the crown are likely to find anything unpatriotic or disloyal in regard to the Telegram. I suggest that the minister should not have been too serious when he spoke of referring the matter to the law officers, having in mind the situation as he knows it to exist.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
90. Expenses of litigated matters, $25,000.
Gordon Graydon: Of what does this item consist? Does it include matters taken to the privy council, and other matters in which the dominion is involved?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The expenses incurred in litigated matters are usually paid directly by the departments concerned, on taxation of the accounts by the officers of the Department of Justice. But there are some cases where no special department is interested in the litigation, and where the Department of Justice itself has to provide the costs incurred. Such, for instance, might be a reference to the supreme court on a question of general interest to the bench, and to the profession throughout Canada.


Gordon Graydon: I am thinking particularly of the case which went to the supreme court by way of reference, in connection with the authority of the wartime prices and trade board to make certain administrative rulings.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: In that case the accounts would be taxed in the Department of Justice, but would be paid directly by the

Supply-Justice
department concerned. When it is something which concerns a special department of government, the law costs incurred are paid by that department, on accounts taxed by the Department of Justice.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
91. Animal contribution to the Canadian law library, London, England, $500.
Gordon Graydon: Has this item been in the estimates for some time?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: It has been there for a few years, and covers books that their lordships and the lawyers attending before the privy council are apt to require in the course of dealing with Canadian cases. It was formerly under the supervision of Blake and Redden, who were solicitors in London. I do not know just what is being done since the outbreak of war in that connection. However, the item was not fully expended last year. There is no doubt that there will be plenty of occasion for supplementing the library at the disposal of their lordships and the lawyers attending, in connection with Canadian matters.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Exchequer Court of Canada-
98. Administration, $36,004.
Gordon Graydon: The question of judges' salaries is one which has been discussed before on many occasions, and I do not wish to labour it at this late date in the session. Is there still a provision whereby, upon a judge retiring from the bench, he is entitled after retirement to the regular allowances and salary he received while on the bench?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: That provision exists now only with respect to county court judges. I believe it was in 1920 the act was amended as it applied to supreme court judges. No rights were taken from the judges then on the bench. That is to say, the new provision contained an arrangement whereby, when they retired, they could take either the pension to which they were entitled under the old law, or that to which they would be entitled under the new law. Under the old law there were certain conditions under which judges could retire with the full amount of salary to which they *were entitled. Under the new law the maximum is sixty-six and two-thirds per cent. But there are some cases where a judge may still retire and get more than sixty-six and two-thirds per cent of his present salary, because he is entitled to the amount of his salary at the time the new act came into force. Not very long ago there was a chief justice in
receipt of a salary of $10,000 who, upon retirement, was entitled to $8,000 instead of $6,666, because, when the new law came into force, his salary was $8,000.


Gordon Graydon: Without attempting to resurrect an age-old controversy, if I may so describe it, as far as judges' salaries are concerned, I would say that particularly at this time I believe it is the duty of the opposition to raise this question, and to place it squarely before the government. My point is this. In view of the position taken by the Minister of Finance, one which has been taken almost irrevocably this session, and also having in mind the position taken by some provinces and not by others with respect to the payment of old age pensions in Canada, it does not seem either equitable or just to have a situation existing such as that described by the minister with respect to a few-and I have in mind old age pensions for judges, because they get them until they die-and at the same time find that the government still declines to call a conference and have some uniform increase of pension and lowering of age at which pensions can be paid to that deserving body of citizens, the old folks in Canada.
I desire to go no farther to-night in the matter, but I must point out to the minister that the contrast is brought clearly to one's mind when an estimate of this kind is before us. While this is not within the jurisdiction of the minister whose estimates are now before the committee, nevertheless, if parliament stands for one thing more than for another, it is for the hearing and remedying of grievances for the whole country. It seems to me that parliament is not justified in passing an item of this kind unless-
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Well, Mr. Chairman-


Gordon Graydon: Well, now, all right; I know the minister is going to say that in so far as-
Mr. ST. LAURENT: But there is no vote here, no appropriation. Everything paid in respect of pensions is paid by virtue of statutes which came into force before this parliament was elected. There is no vote here for pensions to judges.


Gordon Graydon: I do not think that affects my argument, because judges' salaries are paid; and upon judges' salaries-
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No; there is no vote for judges' salaries.


Gordon Graydon: May I ask the chairman this question? We have passed item after item on which we find the statutory mark.
Supply*-Justice

Now, whether it may be by statute or by estimate, I am not prevented in this committee from discussing a matter so important, and which shows such a vivid contrast between one section of our country and another. If the minister or the government takes the position that I am not permitted to contrast a situation between one class of our people and another class, then I challenge the right of the government and the right of the committee to deny me this opportunity to speak.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Well-


Gordon Graydon: The minister has had his say, and he may have it again after I have finished. But I must point out that this is a matter which is considered very seriously by many people in Canada. There are many hon. members in the house who, if they would express themselves freely, would agree with me that this situation is not a comparable one. It is a contrast in the treatment of one class of citizens as opposed to the treatment of another class. If we expect a new order to come when this war is over, surely we must prepare for that new order. I do not think you can prepare for it unless grievances and differences such as this are pointed out from time to time. When I say that I do not cast any reflection upon the vote or upon the statutory provisions being made for these people, but I do say that if we are going to make provisions for one section and class of our citizens we have a perfect right to ask this parliament, and I think this parliament ought to be asked before it rises this session, to cure the difficulties and the grievances which the old people of Canada have with respect to old age pensions. I think this is a matter which must come before this committee eventually, and I bring it up now on account of the differentiation which seems to be existing here.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I was not attempting to prevent the leader of the opposition from making a speech; I simply wanted to point out that there is nothing for judges' pensions or for judges' salaries in the estimates in the Department of Justice. There is an item in the estimates of the Minister of Finance which deals with old age pensions and which will afford a full opportunity of discussing the matter. These are statutory items which are a charge on the consolidated revenue. They appear in the estimates for the information of hon. members. They are not required to be voted at any session, and they could not be taken from those to whom they are payable by statute without an amending statute.


Gordon Graydon: With great deference to the minister I submit that when a statutory
item appears in the estimates and which is germane to the departmental work, we have a perfect right to relate our observations to it.


Thomas Langton Church: There used to be two judges in the exchequer court, and I was wondering if the work of this court has decreased on account of the war. Then there is the admiralty branch with divisions throughout the country. What number of cases has been tried as compared with before the war?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I have not the statistics as to the cases, but I may say that expropriation cases have increased considerably in number since the beginning of the war on account of the acquisition of so much real property for war projects.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
95.	Payments of gratuities to the widows or to any dependent children, of judges who die while in office, $15,000.
Thomas Langton Church: I should like to call the
attention of the Attorney General of Canada to the fact that a bill has been brought before this house for the past three or four years having to do with the functions of the judges of this country. The judges of the supreme court and county court are under the jurisdiction of the attorney general and1 the Minister of Justice, jointly with the provinces. Part of the work is provincial, but the appointments are federal. We are voting 82,040,600 for judges' salaries, the particulars of which will be found on page 92 of the estimates. I repeat that there has been a bill brought before this house each session for the past five years to provide that judges shall not be allowed to leave their judicial duties in order to do outside executive work.
There has been a great increase in the number of commissions appointed, and high court judges, supreme court judges and county court judges in Ontario have been taken from their judicial duties during the terms of court. This has seriously interfered wtih the administration of justice. In connection with county court work in the county of York there used to be three judges, but now there are eight or nine. Some of these might be termed "blackout" judges. Some of these judges are doing rental work, while others are acting on various commissions. The result is that they have to go down to the county of Peel, or to the county of Dufferin, or down east to the county of Ontario and bring judges up to Toronto to do some of the work these other judges have been appointed to do.
I say the policy is all wrong. These judges should not leave the bench to act on commissions and usurp the powers and functions

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of parliament. These judges are asked to conr duct royal commissions appointed under the federal inquiries act or under the provincial inquiries act. For many months a judge has been conducting an inquiry into a school in Toronto, and another judge has had to be brought in to do this work. Last session the minister said that during the recess he would give consideration to the matters set out in this private bill. In the trial division of the high court of Ontario they have twelve judges, and it is well known that some of them are not able to perform their duties. They are all good men; but that is not the point; the point is that when a judge is not available the cases must be put over.
I believe the number of cases in court have declined on account of the war. The minister, along with the attorneys general of the provinces, should lay down some conditions and terms to govern the conduct of the business of our courts. I realize that the administration is a provincial matter, but there should be some joint relations between the federal and provincial authorities along the lines I have stated. The leader of the opposition is a lawyer, and he can tell you how this seriously interferes with the administration of justice. Cases are put over from the assizes and many times the accused must be detained in custody.


Gordon Graydon: In the early stages of
this session I asked for some information with respect to deferred or delayed or reserved judgments. I believe on that occasion the minister said that this was a matter which the provinces would normally handle rather than the Department of Justice. I would deal with this matter at much greater length were it not for the fact that the session is fast drawing to a close, but I wish to say that I regard some of the instances with respect to reserve judgments as nothing short of a national scandal. This is a situation which this government and the Department of Justice ought to take some powers to remedy. I do not know whether the provinces are operating in such a way as to be able to control the situation; but when a judge who is in normal health and who may not have a great deal of work to do leaves a litigant in an uncertain position for a year, if it went any longer than that it would be very difficult from the point of view of those who were suing and those who were being sued.
I have been making some inquiries. I do not wish to make charges against any specific judge; but there have been cases such as the hon. member for Trinity cited when this matter was under debate in the house before,
where a judge had delayed judgment so long in a particular case that first of all the opposing counsel died before judgment was delivered; then the plaintiff passed away, then the defendant, and finally the judge died, the only one left in the case being the hon. member for Trinity who was acting as counsel for one side. Such cases are not frequent, I admit, throughout Canada, but there are just enough cases of prolonged reserved judgments to bring the judiciary in some parts of the country into disrepute. That is the reason for my rising.
A month or so ago a farmer came in to see me. He had heard that I had said something in the house about, reserved judgments, and he asked me, "Would you think thirteen years was long enough for a judge to make up his mind and give a judgment? I had a case that was tried in .1930, and while it was not a very important case it was important to me, but a judgment has not yet been handed down." I did think that thirteen years was a long period for the normal working of a judge's mind, and I bring this matter to the attention of the Minister of Justice to prevent a scandalous situation from arising. To be frank, I think there is no excuse for a judge who is attempting to carry out his duties faithfully in war time to reserve judgment for an extraordinary length of time. The legal profession has a duty with respect to that, but lawyers generally are so anxious to please the judges that they do not press them too much. I am not interested in pleasing any judges in Canada; I think it is our duty in parliament to mention this matter, and then I am going to leave it with the minister to consider during the recess whether some check-up can be made in cases where there are inequities and injustices to litigants as a result of long delayed reserved judgments. Some kind of penalty should be imposed on judges who are not doing their duty in this respect. I am not so sure but that one penalty that would bring a recalcitrant judge to time would be this, that if a certain length of time had passed without judgment being given, the case be reheard and the costs on both sides and the court costs be borne personally by the judge. Something must be done to penalize the judge who does not discharge his duties within a reasonable time. If a member of parliament leaves a letter unanswered for a week and a half he is in trouble and perhaps a cabinet minister is in trouble if he leaves a letter unanswered for a couple of days. He may be subject to press comment and even a public indignation meeting if he persists in such conduct, but so far as judges are concerned they seem to have a

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certain privilege which personally I do not think they should have, because just as much responsibility rests upon a judge as upon any other of our citizens.
Having said that, I wish to add that in the main we have a judiciary which is beyond reproach. I think we are very fortunate in that respect, and it is only for the purpose of perfecting that splendid system we now have that I ask the minister to evolve during the recess some plan by which we shall be able to satisfy a group of litigants in Canada who are very much dissatisfied with this feature of the present system.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I must say a word in reply to the leader of the opposition, because I cannot let the public remain under the impression that the Department of Justice is failing in its duty because judgments are not handed down as rapidly as they should be handed down. The federal government has no jurisdiction in that matter. Judges are appointed for life and can be removed only on a joint address of both houses of parliament. The administration of justice is a provincial matter, and property and civil rights are also within provincial control.


Gordon Graydon: I was not condemning the minister.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No; but the impression that would be gathered from the speech of the leader of the opposition would be that this government was derelict in its duty in not having judgments rendered promptly by all the members of the judiciary. I have been in office for something over a year and a half, and in that time only two specific instances have been brought to my attention. In an extreme case, of course, I could bring the matter before parliament, but in both these instances I could do nothing but communicate with the chief justice of the court of which the judge was a member, point out to him how detrimental it was to the respect of the community for the administration of justice to have such delays occur and ask him to point out to the judge in question that he was doing a serious disservice to the people of Canada by thus bringing some discredit upon our judicial system. In both instances the chief justice replied to me fully appreciating the viewpoint I had expressed and told me that he had brought the matter forcibly to the notice of his colleague. In one instance, only to-day, I wrote to a litigant who had written to me on July 17 with respect to something about which he had written me earlier, in March. In March I 
had taken the matter up with the chief justice of the court concerned, who had discussed it with his colleague, who was then on circuit, and his colleague had promised that upon completing his circuit he would immediately consider the case very carefully and hoped to hand down a decision by the end of June. I passed this information on to the litigant, and on July 17 I received a letter from him that June 30 had gone by and no judgment had been handed down yet. I communicated again with the chief justice.


Gordon Graydon: When was the case tried?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Considerably over a year and a half before. If it had been only a matter of a few weeks I would not have intervened.


Gordon Graydon: Was the judge sick in
the meantime?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: No; the judge explained that he had thought it would be in the interests of the parties-there were two lawsuits, and the defendant in the one case was the plaintiff in the other-if he allowed some time to go by before he disposed of the cases. It so happened that the judgments were handed down on the very day on which the litigant wrote me his last letter. When I wrote to the chief justice I got back a letter from him saying that the judgments had been han'ded down that very day. So that only to-day I had to pass that information on to the litigant and say that we had done our best.	,


Gordon Graydon: You had got results.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: We do get results. If litigants would bring cases to the attention of the Minister of Justice, although he has no power to do anything unless it becomes a situation where he could bring the matter before parliament, his intervention with the chief justice of the court concerned will bring results. I invite the lawyer members of this house, when they have knowledge of such delays, which are talked about and which become gossip in the locality where the litigants reside, to bring the matter to the attention of the department. I am not so much concerned with the immediate service they will be rendering the parties in the case as I am concerned with the respect of the people generally for the administration of justice, and the bringing of the concrete facts in these matters, so that they can be dealt with as concrete facts, to the knowledge of the department will be rendering the public generally a service. I may add that I never fail in any of these letters to say that this is something which each

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session is brought up in the house, and that the time will come when names will be pronounced in the house, if there is no improvement in the situation, and that it would be to almost the everlasting discredit of any member of the bench to have him complained about by name in a debate of this kind.


Gordon Graydon: I fancy that this will meet the situation, if it receives sufficient publicity throughout the country, that the Minister of Justice is prepared, in the case of a long delayed and reserved judgment, to take that Sort of action. I think it will meet the situation I have described in at least ninety per cent of the cases.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I think it will.
As to the question of the hon. member for Broadview, I also deplore the necessity during these critical times of having to invite some members of the bench to take on other duties. But I was expecting-perhaps I was too hopeful-that with respect to the situation in Ontario I might be complimented to-night, because I am rather proud of what has been taking place with respect to the high courts of Ontario over the last few months, and I have received from a number of members of the profession flattering letters as to the excellency of some of the recent appointments to the bench and the splendid way in which those appointees are carrying on their judicial duties.


Gordon Graydon: That must not be regarded as a reflection on the old appointees, who are also, some of them, very good.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Quite, but there are some weaknesses.


Gordon Graydon: Of course that occurs in governments just as it does on the bench.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: It occurs everywhere. There were only twelve apostles, and one of them did not appear to be so good.


Gordon Graydon: The percentage in some governments is usually higher than that.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The hon. member for Broadview was complaining about the possible postponement of some of the assizes in Ontario. There is no high court trial judge of Ontario engaged upon any commission work, nor has there been, to my knowledge, since I came into this office. There is room for improvement in most of the courts of Canada, and there is a serious impediment in the constitutional provision of the British North America Act, that unless a situation becomes such that you appoint a committee and have that committee find a judge incompetent, he cannot be removed. Unfortunately, there are throughout Canada in various places some 72537-337}
judges who have performed excellent service in the past but have reached an age when their services are much less valuable to the country than they were, and where younger men appointed in their place would be much more effective than such judges are proving to be at this time. That also is something which has been discussed a great many times in this chamber, and with respect to which no proper or convenient solution has been reached.
Mr. MaeINNIS: On various occasions when these Department of Justice items were before this committee I have tried to get some information with regard to this item. I must confess that I have never been satisfied with the information I have been able to get. I wish to ask the minister three or four questions in regard to this item. First, I should like to know how much was paid out last year and to whom. Second, is a payment under this amount made to the same person or persons more than once? Third, what factors determine the granting and the amount of a gratuity? Fourth, is any investigation made as to the necessity of paying a gratuity?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: This item is to provide a fund out of which there may be paid by order of the governor in council a gratuity equal to two months' salary to the widow or other dependents of a judge at the time of his demise. It is not an annual or repeated gratuity; it is one amount, not exceeding two months' salary.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I have a fairly good idea as to what the item is. What I wish to know is, what are the factors which determine whether a gratuity is paid or not? Is the gratuity paid regardless of the economic circumstances of the widow or family concerned? As a matter of fact I consider it is class legislation.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Oh, no.
Mr. MaeINNIS: I do not see any reason why the widow of a judge should be singled out for a gratuity any more than the widow of a fireman or a miner or a longshoreman. I do not know just how much is paid. Taking the $15,000 which is in the estimate, and the same amount appears each year, it is sufficient to provide, at the current rate of the old age pension, pensions for a whole year for sixty-two people, and before the old age pensioners would get it they would have to be paupers. Is any investigation made as to the necessity of granting a gratuity? If there is not, why is it granted?
Mr. ST. LAURENT: The hon. member
says that tills is class legislation. It is class legislation just as there is class legislation
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providing for every member of the civil service. When there is no pension a gratuity is provided as a rule for the widow or the dependents of every member of the civil service. I believe that originally the provision was for dependents who found themselves in such circumstances that it was very difficult for them to provide for the funeral expenses and the cost of the clothing used in mourning on the death of the head of the family. Since I came to the department, no case has been submitted where the officers of the department have not prepared a recommendation to council for the payment to the widow or other dependent of the deceased judge of an amount equal to two months' salary. According to the report of the auditor general at page 129, the amount expended in 1942 out of the $15,000 was $7,166.66.


Angus MacInnis: The minister says that this is similar to the amount paid to civil servants who are not covered by insurance or some other form of protection. I understand that all civil servants can and do come under the Civil Service Superannuation Act and that they provide for themselves in that way. Before these items have been disposed of, we shall have a discussion about provision for people who are in very needy circumstances, and I simply wish to prepare the government for the fact that if we can find money for payments of this kind, then there are a great number of very needy people, needy widows, whose husbands did not receive salaries as high as those of judges, who will get nothing when the head of the family passes.


Thomas Langton Church: Bill No. 105 relates to the judges of Canada, and I would point out that they are federal as well as provincial officers. It proposes that these judges shall fulfil the functions for which they have been appointed and not go on commissions.


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. The item under discussion has to do with gratuities to widows or dependents of judges. The bill which the hon. member is discussing is not relevant.


Thomas Langton Church: I was dealing with the $2,000,000 item when I was interrupted.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I must call attention to the fact that the item of $2,040,600 was not called and does not need to be called.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I must ask the hon. member to abide by my ruling.


Thomas Langton Church: Your ruling is correct, Mr. Chairman. I just wish to point out one fact, namely, that these judges who are leaving

their judicial duties and going on commissions are interfering extensively with the administration of their courts-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Thomas Langton Church: -and in the second place, that when the judges are appointed they are supposed to follow the decisions of the privy council or the court of last resort, and they do not do this. They have to take an oath of office but they are not following those decisions. Last year I called attention to both these matters. There are one or two judges who appear to follow the decisions of the privy council or the court of last resort, and they ought to, because they are bound by those decisions. I would ask the minister to look into this matter. The judges are federal officers, but they are provincial officers as well. They are sworn to do their duty, and they are not doing that duty when they fail to follow the decisions of the privy council or the oourt of last resort. I want to find out what the minister proposes to do about it.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: If the minister proposed to do anything about it, he would have first of all to have the British North America Act amended, and he does not propose at this time to suggest any other amendment than the one that was dealt with in the resolution recently passed by the house.


Thomas Langton Church: We are getting to the stage they have reached in the United States. There, if a man becomes a lawyer, the next day, after he is called to the bar, he is called judge, because if he is not a judge to-day he hopes to be a judge to-morrow. I suggest that some survey should be made and that there should be some coordination of the work in Ontario and in the other provinces throughout Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Penitentiaries branch-
96.	Branch administration, $116,113.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In 1936 a commission was set up to investigate the penal system of Canada and it submitted eighty-eight recommendations. Would the minister make some statement as to what was done about their report. I quote from the report:
3.	There should be a complete reorganization of the headquarters administration of Canadian penitentiaries to include giving effect to the recommendations in this report as to the retirement of certain officers.
4.	A prison commission, composed of three members, removable only for cause, should be appointed with full authority over the management of penitentiaries, empowered to appoint

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staff, and to act as a central parole board. The commission should be responsible directly to the Minister of Justice and to parliament.
6 A planned reconstruction of the personnel of the penitentiary staffs throughout Canada should be effected in order that officers who have special training will be enlisted in the service.
14. There should be a thorough and complete revision of the penitentiary rules and regulations based on the principles contained in this report, with special regard to:
(a)	the protection of society;
(b)	the safe custody of inmates;
(c)	strict but humane discipline;
(d)	reformation and rehabilitation of prisoners.
16. A complete revision of the methods of classification of prisoners should be made, with provision for a thorough medical and psychiatric examination of prisoners.
19. Separate institutions, based on the principles of the English Borstal system, should be established to permit of special treatment being given to young offenders between ^sixteen and twenty-one years of age. There should also be a classification centre and three grades in each unit, each grade to be separately located and not contiguous to another. Two units should be established at once, one in the province of Ontario, and one in the province of Quebec, with a further development of the scheme in the prairie provinces, the mar,time provinces, and, in a modified manner having regard to the population, in British Columbia.
33. Provision should be made for more outdoor physical exercise, on the principles suggested in chapter VIII of this report, with recreational games permitted according to the age and classification of prisoners. Further provision should be made on the same principles for more indoor recreation.
37. A complete reorganization of the educational system should be made in accordance with the recommendations contained in chapter VIII of this Teport. with special consideration for the young offenders, more frequent library privileges, and a simplified system of book distribution.
62. The interest of the public should be enlisted in an organized manner, having regard to the vital importance of the prevention of crime by reducing juvenile delinquency, and the assistance of social service agencies and churches and schools in cooperation with the home should be organized to this end.
Thousands of children across Canada are permitted to roam the streets without adequate provision being made for their healthful recreation. Hon. members will observe that this item costs the taxpayers over $3,000,000. Some mention was made of provision for old age pensions, and the Minister of Finance is asking for just about $31,000,000 to provide for the 180,000 old age pensioners of the country.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: Is this matter of old age pensions going to be discussed on each item of my estimates? I wonder if there has been any rumour of what is being prepared by
the Minister of Finance to form a part of his statement when his estimates are called. It would seem as if there were considerable anxiety to get this on the record before the Minister of Finance gets into the house. I must object to the matter of old age pensions being discussed on this item, which has to do with penitentiaries.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I think the Minister of Justice is the one who should be called to order for rising to make a speech saying what the Minister of Finance is going to do. I merely compared the appropriation now before the committee with an item which will come up later on, and I wish to suggest that the spending of more than $3,000,000 of the money of the taxpayers of this country in connection with our penal institutions involves a very large sum of money. I believe this house should give consideration to the recommendations that were brought in by the royal commission, which was composed of eminent Canadians. The chairman of that commission was Mr. Justice Archambault, of the superior court of Quebec, and the other members were Mr. R. W. Craig of Winnipeg and Mr. Harry Anderson of Toronto. Unfortunately Mr. Anderson, who had been a student of criminology for many years, died before he was able to participate in the 'work of this commission, but his place was taken by another eminent Canadian, Mr. J. C. McRuer, and a very large sum of money was spent in connection with the work of this commission. I believe the commissioners are to be congratulated upon having made such a careful study of this important question. The minister might have allowed me to finish my remarks without getting so excited and making a speech in regard to what is to be done with the old age pensioners. The commission made reference to a statement by the lord chief justice of England, Lord Hewart of Bury, when he was addressing a discharged prisoners' aid society in England, in 1936. He said:
It would be grotesque and silly to imagine that the duty society owes to them is completed when imprisonment is ended. It is then that the real struggle begins. How often have I heard it said of men and women that their real punishment begins on the day they go out of prison.
When you think of the number in prison who might very well not be there and of the number outside who might very well be in, there is no great difficulty in ascertaining the kind of duty which society owes to those who are unfortunate to be inside. I often wonder when I see prisoners in the dock or in a penal establishment, whether the people outside the prison are really worth the sacrifice which they compel the people in prison to make.
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No doubt prison with all its appalling faults is necessary until we can find a better substitute. But at least society does owe to those unfortunate persons-some are no doubt wicked -but all are unfortunate-the duty of helping them as far as may be.
Then in the recommendations the commission said:
The interest of the public should be enlisted in an organized manner, having regard to the vital importance of the prevention of crime by reducing juvenile delinquency, and the assistance of social service agencies and churches and schools in cooperation with the home should be organized to this end.
It was also recommended1 that special efforts should be made in connection with rehabilitation. There is one matter which was not discussed by the commission but which I think is timely now, when we have a very large population in our penitentiaries. Many of these are able-bodied men and women, but to-day they are not making the contribution they might make. It is in their interests that Hitler should be defeated and that the united nations should have the benefit of every ounce of energy that can be thrown into the conflict. I submit that if the recommendations of the royal commission had1 been acted upon, the penitentiaries of Canada would be organized to-day in such a way that the man-power now going to waste in those institutions might be devoted to some useful purpose. I should like the minister to make some comment with regard to the recommendations which were brought down by that commission.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: With respect to the report of the penitentiaries commission I must repeat what I said when the estimates were before the house last year. It will not be possible for me to take the responsibility of recommending the expenditure required to implement this report while this country is at war. The recommendations which do not involve large expenditures of money have been vey carefully considered, and most of them have been implemented to the degree to which that could be done without large expenditures of money. Again I have to come back to the British North America Act. Most of these high-minded gentlemen who talk about reforming the man who is so unfortunate as to be sentenced to some period of detention overlook the fact that ninety-five per cent of those condemned to detention are in no way under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice or any other federal department. They are serving sentences of less than twenty-four months in the common gaols, of which there are a great many throughout the country. The Department of Justice has no jurisdiction

over them other than to recommend to hia excellency, in appropriate cases, some degree of clemency. To carry out the social schemes or projects that are put forward by high-minded, public-spirited citizens would require a system under which the control of the gaols and penitentiaries would be under one authority. That does not exist and cannot be brought about under the British North America Act.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am not satisfied with the explanation the minister has given. Would he be good enough to tell the committee how many people are in our penitentiaries now, and what provision is being made so that those confined in these institutions may make some useful contribution to the war effort?
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	The value of the
production, of penitentiary labour has more than doubled in the last two years, and a constant effort is being made to increase further the economic value of the work performed in the penitentiaries. All those who are connected with the administration of the penitentiaries realize, as I do, that merely employing the men so that their time passes must have a depressing moral effect upon those so employed, and it has been our constant endeavour to have them produce something which would give some tangible result for the manual labour performed. Prior to the war there was serious objection from labour unions and industry generally to allowing articles produced in the penitentiaries to come into competition with the products of free labour. Since the shortage of man-power has arisen, however, and since there has grown up such a large demand by departments of this government for various manufactured articles, we have found that without clashing with the labour unions or private industry we can make use of everything that can be produced in the penitentiaries.
As I say, there has been an increase of more than 100 per cent in the dollar value of the articles produced. In 1942-43 the value of the production of the penitentiaries, over and above that which was consumed in the institutions themselves, amounted to $382,008.20, of which $102,099.10 went into things we were able to do for the military forces. There has been a satisfactory decline in the population of the penitentiaries since the beginning of the war. At the present time that population is 2,980, while in 1938 the average was 3,618; in 1940, 3,736; 1940-41, 3,654; 1941-42, 3,380; 1942-43, 2,980, compared to a penitentiary and prison population of something like
75,000.

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Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: So far as I can see, these figures are not the least bit impressive. Here we have 2,980 men who are each making a contribution of something over $100. The taxpayers of this country are spending over $3,000,000 to maintain these institutions. There is a very serious shortage of man-power all across Canada, and I think something could be done to have the inmates of these institutions make contributions greater than the amount the minister has stated. If it is double what dt is last year, that would make the situation all the more serious a year ago.
Mr. ST. LAURENT: I am not at all satisfied with the results which have been obtained, although they are 100 per cent greater than heretofore. In addition to that, there was agricultural produce valued at $167,884. That, again, is not as much as it should be, in my opinion, with that amount of man-power available, and the area of agricultural land under cultivation. However, there is a substantial increase. Both in the agricultural and in the industrial fields there have been encouraging increases, and this year we are obtaining a revolving fund of some $200,000 for the purchase of raw materials which will enter into goods of various kinds ordered by the Department of Munitions and Supply for the military forces. There is a considerable increase there, and we will not have any excuse for not increasing it further, because at the present time we are not in any way clashing with private industry.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Penitentiaries branch-
97.	Operation and maintenance of penitentiaries, including administration, construction, purchase of land, supplies, equipment and live stock; maintenance and discharge and transfer of convicts; compensation to discharged convicts permanently disabled while in penitentiaries, $2,914,779.
Thomas Reid: There is a matter I should like to draw to the minister's attention in connection with the penitentiary at New Westminster. This penitentiary was established many years ago when coastal development was in its infancy. In those days it was not visualized that the New Westminster and Vancouver areas would have developed to such a great extent. The result has been that to-day we find the penitentiary almost in the centre of a modern city. The penitentiary at New Westminster divides the city in two. I am informed that from time to time reports have been made with regard to the location of that penitentiary, and in days past there was a recommendation that a new location should be found for it. To-day the main thoroughfare passes it, and since there is a
total of only something like 130 acres in connection with the institution, it is difficult at times to keep the men gainfully or usefully employed in the grounds, owing to the fact that those grounds have been worked over for many long years.
I believe the time is now opportune for a survey for a new location. Will the minister be good enough to undertake such a survey, having in mind the purpose of finding a new location, so that at the end of hostilities under, shall we say, a rehabilitation scheme, a new site may be developed. It is very easy at the present time to obtain 500 or 1,000 acres of land close to transportation facilities, areas which to my mind would be far more suitable for penitentiary purposes than the present site.
I have been given to understand that the city of New Westminster would be glad to enter into an arrangement with the penitentiaries authorities or the dominion government in connection with this land, because, if vacated by the penitentiary, it would make a valuable piece of residential property. The present site of the penitentiary is not a proper one, because it is encircled by the city of New Westminster, and divides that city in two. I wrould ask the minister to give serious consideration to a survey, so that, following cessation of hostilities, a new penitentiary might be built on a new site.
Mr. ST. LAURENT:	As early as 1878
reports were placed on the files of the department pointing out that a mistake had been made in the selection of that site. The matter has been referred to at various times since then, and was again given serious consideration in 1920. In 1923 various sites were considered by the late superintendent General Hughes, with a view to establishing another penitentiary for British Columbia. Since then, the matter has been referred to from time to time in reports to the minister. Our officers are of the opinion that it was not a proper site, and that it is not suitable for many reasons, and among them are those stated by the hon. member. It is in the heart of the city of New Westminster, and the area is not large enough to permit of the agricultural work it is deemed advisable to have done by persons confined in the institution. Certainly at an early date this matter will have to be given serious consideration with a view to finding another site.
There is, of course, the fact to be considered that the buildings on the site have a book value of about $808,000, and an expenditure of more than that amount would be required to
Supply-Justice

provide elsewhere the penitentiary accommodation which we must have. However, I can assure the hon. member that the matter ean-not long remain without a change being made.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police-
SIS. Land services, arising out of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, enforcement of federal statutes generally, and other incidental expenses, $6,009,545.67.
Mr. SHAW:: A few days ago, when we were discussing certain estimates with respect to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, many members made some fine comments with respect to this famouns force. I shall not go over the things that were said then, but I wish to associate myself with those remarks. I am particularly concerned about one aspect of this item, the pay question. It is true that not long ago increases were authorized for certain ranks, and' I know these were appreciated, but we must also recognize the fact that, since these increases were granted, the rate of taxation has increased materially. I am of opinion that some of these men are in a more difficult position to-day than they were prior to the increase.
This matter was brought forcibly to my mind not long ago when a constable who has been with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for approximately twelve years showed me his pay cheque. The amount of the cheque was $82.50, with taxation deductions at the source of $30, leaving a cash income of $5250 for the month. I realize that certain allowances in the way of uniforms and billeting are made in the case of the single constable, but I wondered how we could expect a constable of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who is not permitted to engage in any other type of remunerative work, to carry on his duties when his net cash income for the month is only $52.50. We expect these men to be the personification of honesty, and I am not saying that they are not, but when you leave a constable with a net income of that amount you are developing a feeling in him that he would probably like to commit an infraction of the regulations and engage in some work during his spare time to supplement that $52.50.
The minister stated the other night that, while there is a ceiling on wages, we should not permit that to stand in the way when a situation such as this develops. When we consider the allowances granted to these men the salary may appear to be quite substantial, but we still cannot get around the fact that we are leaving them, members of the permanent force, single uniformed constables, with a cash

income of $52.50 a month. It is not proper, and I think further consideration should be given to this matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police-
Pensions and other benefits-
S20. To compensate members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for injuries received in the performance of duty, $11,749.16.
Gordon Graydon: This is one item that is worth while being included.	-


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Office of the chief electoral officer-
3Jt. Salaries and expenses of office, $16,692.
Gordon Graydon: May I ask a question which no doubt the minister expected to be asked at this time, in connection with the Cartier by-election. Is the returning officer of that electoral district still being retained, or has there been any removal from office?


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Secretary of State):: There has been no removal. There is no evidence against him under the elections act upon which he could properly be removed. The only suggestion against him is that after he was appointed returning officer in 1938, his uncle decided to run for the constituency in 1943. The assistant chief electoral officer is there in a supervisory capacity.


Gordon Graydon: The returning officer has not seen fit to resign himself?


Norman Alexander McLarty: No; he has not, and I do not think there is any obligation upon him to do so. There is no criticism of him. In the two instances that came to his attention he acted immediately.


Gordon Graydon: It is just a question of public confidence, and I am raising it only on that basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil service commission-
S5. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $458,404.
Gordon Graydon: Has anything been done by the government toward appointing a commission or committee to take the place of the Coon advisory committee, whose report seems to have been buried so deeply in the affairs of state during the last few months?


Norman Alexander McLarty: That committee was
appointed' by the treasury board and I am afraid I have no information which would enable me to answer the question.

Supply-Secretary of State


Gordon Graydon: Has the minister or his department in contemplation the setting up of a committee to deal with civil service matters, having in mind the situation which was dealt with by the Coon committee earlier in the year?


Norman Alexander McLarty: No steps have been taken along that line up to the present time.


Gordon Graydon: Does the minister expect that there will be any taken?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I would not want to anticipate, because that would be a matter to take up with treasury board.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public printing and stationery-
254. Distribution of official documents, $48,015.
Gordon Graydon: Would it be possible to meet the convenience of members of the house by an earlier printing of the bound volume of Hansard? I do no want to press the minister with regard to this on account of the pressure of work on the printing bureau at the present time, but perhaps he would bear it in mind because members are anxious to have the revised edition and index as soon as they can. There might also be a little more speed with respect to the printing of the statutes, which is an even more important matter. It seems a long time to members after they get home before the statutes are finally bound and available.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I shall be very glad to take the matter up, and if there is any possibility of expediting publication of both Hansard and the statutes, I shall endeavour to see that it is done.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Has the government reduced the number of "Canada Year Books" that are printed. A number of people who are in the habit of purchasing the volume each year have written me that they are unable to get it.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Yes; the economy control took charge and the number printed was reduced.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: On what basis are they distributed? Is it first come first served?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Certain public officials get them and there is a distribution to certain departments. If there are any left over, it is pretty much a matter of selling them on application.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public printing and stationery-
255. Printing and binding official publications for sale and distribution to departments and the public, $50,000.
Gordon Graydon: Does the government get the cost in all these cases?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Not necessarily. The Canada Gazette until this year carried itself pretty well, and, generally speaking, the government does get the cost. It is charged up to a particular department if it is departmental printing. Hansard, except for sales to the public, would not carry itself.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
325. Naturalization branch, $64,460.
Norman Alexander McLarty: I should like to make a brief statement in connection with this item. When the war appropriation estimates of the Secretary of State were before the committee, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar raised the point as to whether a naturalized Canadian leaving Canada for the United States and taking his first papers in that country lost his Canadian citizenship. At the time I had not read the exact terms of the declaration of intention which he is required to take, but since then I have. He does not renounce his allegiance to the British crown. It simply says that as and when his final papers are granted he will. Consequently there is no loss of Canadian citizenship until the final papers are granted.


Mr. HLYNKA:: Would it be possible for
the minister to bring about a change in the requirements for naturalization with respect to the language qualification? It may seem strange to suggest that anyone who speaks neither English nor French should ask for a naturalization certificate, but a great many thousands of our people-I brought this to the attention of the Prime Minister on one occasion-came here from various countries of Europe twenty-five, thirty, forty or fifty years ago, and starting in as pioneers made Canada their home. That is particularly true of the western provinces. We have there people of Ukrainian, Polish, German and other origins. Wherever these people have settled in blocks it was impossible for them to learn the English language, because they never came into contact with the English-speaking people. Surely any pioneer who has lived here for twenty years or more and has a son or grandson in our armed forces in this war should be accepted as a citizen of this country and be granted a naturalization certificate if he applies. I receive tens of letters weekly

Supply-Trade and Commerce

from people in western Canada of various origins who have not had an opportunity to learn the English language and who were refused naturalization certificates when they applied, because of language qualification. Later, when they apply for old age pension- and some of them really need that assistance- they are refused it because they do not possess a naturalization certificate. I would appeal to the minister to consider this feature of the naturalization requirements with a view to bringing about some change, perhaps stipulating a knowledge of some other language, or some other requirement, so that these people who have settled as pioneers on the prairie provinces may be eligible for Canadian citizenship. I say that in all seriousness, because it seems unfair that these people who have devoted their lives in the upbuilding of this country should be refused naturalization certificates and, in consequence, some of them be refused the old age pension. I appeal to the minister to give this matter serious consideration.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I shall be very glad to
do so, but may I make a practical suggestion to the hon. member for Vegreville? As he knows, naturalization is one of the subjects considered by the committee on the defence of Canada regulations, which has not yet brought in its final report. It might be opportune for the hon. member to submit that matter to the committee for consideration at its next sitting.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Before we proceed with the next item I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre), that the house do not adjourn at eleven o'clock. I have spoken to the leaders of the other groups and they are agreeable to this motion.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
S//8. Dominion bureau of statistics-Statistics, $1,078,515.
Mr. ISNOR:: I desire on this item to bring to the attention of the minister a number of, shall I say, complaints which have reached me from retail merchants, not only in Halifax city and throughout the province of Nova Scotia but in other portions of the maritimes. In peace time there would not be the criticism which I propose to offer, but on account of reduced staffs in retail stores, particularly so far as office help is concerned, merchants find it exceedingly difficult, not only to meet the requirements of this branch of the government, in compiling returns at the end of

each month, but to make the further returns which are required by the wartime prices and trade board at the end of each month, with respect to the amount of stock they have on hand, the sales they have made, and a large number of other items, which mean additional bookkeeping. More than one merchant has told me that it takes practically the entire time of one clerk or other member of his office staff to prepare the necessary returns which are required by three branches of government. I refer to the bureau of statistics, as regards returns for their particular records, the wartime prices and trade board at the end of each month, and the income tax office in connection with the same items, namely, the amount of stock which they have on hand at the beginning of the year, the quantity of purchases made for each month and for the entire twelve months, the gross profit, the estimated cost of the goods, and the net profit. All these items must be supplied by each and every individual making his return to the income tax office, and in addition he is obliged at the end of each month to make returns covering not all but a number of these items. Further than that, there is the monthly return to the dominion bureau of statistics with regard to trade matters.	,
Within the last two weeks the wartime prices and trade board sent out a form compelling merchants to give a survey of their business for the years 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942, covering a large number of items. It is not so much the firms with up-to-date methods of bookkeeping as it is the large number of small merchants who are finding it exceedingly difficult to meet the requirements of these government bureaux in this respect. I could place on record the type of form which is required. Perhaps it is a good thing to have the statistics on file to advise merchants from month to month as to increases or decreases in the particular section of the country where they are doing business, in comparison with the rest of Canada. But I would point out that returns should be simplified in every way possible, and I base that contention largely on the fact that man-power at this time is extremely scarce, and that additional restrictions affecting retail staffs have recently been brought into effect by selective service. I ask the minister to give consideration to the elimination of at least two of these forms and the bringing of returns under one heading in as simplified a form as possible. Since I have already gone over some phases of this matter with the minister and some of his officials, I do not need to enlarge further upon it.
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Supply-Labour
For instance, the monthly return-and this is every month-calls for the following information from every retailer: net sales, inventory of merchandise beginning the first of the period; merchandise purchased for the month or for that period; net cost of merchandise handled; inventory of merchandise at the end of the stated period; net cost of merchandise sold and gross trading profit.
To be quite frank, I do not see what gross profit or net profit means to the bureau of statistics, because that particular information should not be of very much concern to them. I appreciate why it is of interest to the income tax office, because it is on that return that the retailers must pay their taxes; but this could be eliminated to a marked extent and thus make it a little easier for the retail merchant to carry on in a manner in keeping with present conditions


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I can quite sympathize with the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Isnor) because personally I have had practical experience in connection with the point he raises. However, the -difficulty is particularly marked at the present time, much more so than in peace time. I am informed that the complaints in times of peace are very moderate. This situation has been greatly aggravated by the war and by the necessity of securing increased information during this period. A good deal of criticism is made of the bureau of statistics, but on the bureau of statistics has been placed during the war the responsibility of collecting information which is not generally collected for the benefit of various branches of the government. The wartime prices and trade board use the bureau of statistics to a great extent for securing the statistics which they regard as vital to their work. I shall bring to the attention of my officials the comments made by the hon. member.


Gordon Benjamin Isnor: So far as the records of the
bureau of statistics or of the wartime prices and trade board are concerned, of what benefit is the last item, namely, net profit made by the merchant?


James Angus MacKinnon: That information is required by another branch of government. I am not sure of the special reason why they want to know the net profit made, except that it is necessary for the general information they require on the financial state of the merchants of the country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
101. Combines Investigation Act, $30,250.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I am sorry to have to
discuss at this stage of the session the matter I have in hand, but so far there has been no other item under which I could bring it up earlier. It has to do with the effect of an alleged combine upon the employment of a gentleman in Toronto, Mr. Robert Stuart. On August 1 of last year, as reported at page 5176 of Hansard, I made reference to this matter. At that time I stated that this gentleman was an experienced salesman of electrical equipment; that he had been employed by several electrical companies one after the other, each of which had sought his services; but that in due course, owing, to what he alleges was a combination of these companies to control sales territories and sales, his services were dispensed with, and he alleges that the companies agreed not to reemploy him. On hearing the information I gave at that time, the minister said that the matter would be looked into and that, if the facts were found to be as claimed by Mr. Stuart, an investigation would be held. It appears that on August 18, 1942, Colonel the Hon. W. H. Price, exattorney general of Ontario, acting as solicitor for Mr. Robert Stuart, wrote the minister a letter which I feel I should read:
The Hon. Humphrey Mitchell,
Minister of Labour,
Ottawa, Canada.
Dear Mr. Mitchell:
On August 1st, 1942, in the House of Commons when item 102 "Combines Investigation Act, $45,475," was going through committee, Mr. John R. MacNicol, M.P., brought to your attention a case of a gentleman, "R.S." I am attaching Hansard page 5176 which sets out what happened. The gentleman referred to was Robert Stuart, of 1 Brandon avenue, Toronto. Mr. Stuart has asked me to draft for him a declaration covering the facts of his case. I am enclosing that declaration, so that you will have it before you for consideration.
Mr. Stuart has been placed in a very bad position on account of the discrimination practised against him. He is a man now fifty years of age, and cannot get new types of employment readily. On a number of occasions he has made complaints to the companies involved, and I believe has brought the matter to the attention of the authorities. You will agree that a man like Mr. Stuart is not financially able to attack large companies who have discriminated against him. On that account the matter has dragged along without him getting any redress. Probably under these circumstances, with these facts before you, you will be able to investigate his case in such a way as not only to give him redress, but improve the situation which apparently still exists. He knows that he cannot get employment where
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Supply-Labour

he had it before, notwithstanding that he was successful as a salesman, and in great demand. There should be a remedy for a situation of this kind.
Enclosed with the letter was an affidavit which I shall not take time to read, since the Minister has a copy of it, giving the names of the various companies and setting out the various facts which Mr. Stuart claims to have information and affidavits to prove. I shall read just the last paragraph of this affidavit:
The above information has come to me from various sources in my capacity- as a salesman, and I now say that this combination of companies are a combine to fix prices and eliminate competition. In carrying out this plan they agreed not to employ me, and they did not employ me because it would interfere with their plans. I have suffered very greatly on this account, as these companies cover the whole range of my sales efforts. They are practically the only companies in Ontario from whom I can receive employment. I therefore request that the Department of Labour take such steps as -will enable me to obtain employment and at the same time put an end to the electrical ring.
And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true and knowing that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath, and by virtue of The Canada Evidence Act.
To that letter and affidavit the minister replied, under date of September 9, 1942: Dear Colonel Price:
I have had careful inquiries made into the subject matter of your letter of August 18 and the declaration of Mr. Robert Stuart which you enclosed.
It appears that Mr. Stuart's submissions relate in the main to his past connections with certain electrical equipment companies. Remedy for the personal injury alleged would appear to be a matter of civil law. This, you will understand, is not a matter which can be considered under the Combines Investigation Act.
In addition, Mr. Stuart makes certain allegations with respect to the operations of certain companies engaged in the sale of transformers. The transactions which he describes are said to have occurred a number of years ago. The electrical supply industry is now subject to the control of the wartime prices and trade board, and the sale and supplying of transformers and related goods are, by order, under the direct supervision of the administrator of electrical apparatus and machinery. There does not appear to be ground for proceeding now with investigation under the Combines Investigation Act into these alleged transactions of a period in which the circumstances differed so greatly from those now prevailing.
I have a word to say in reference to that. I know this gentleman. He is a highly reputable and excellent citizen. The affidavit signed by him, and prepared by his legal adviser evidently reveals a situation in which he is barred from obtaining employment.

That, of course, is wholly and manifestly unfair, and, in my judgment, an infraction of the man's rights.
Investigations made recently in the United States before a senate committee reveal that a large number of companies in that country have been carrying on under a combination. The lines covered by those various combinations include companies manufacturing magnesium metal, and materials made from it, zinc, rubber, gasoline, electrical equipment, plastics, dye stuffs, tungsten, carbide and some others. The one to which I am referring particularly is electrical equipment.
After a most exhaustive investigation into these various combines, the assistant attorney general for the United States appeared before the senate committee and made this statement:
Mr. Arnold: I appear before this committee to present a bill to correct those pressing patent abuses which have so disastrously affected our war effort. Through these abuses * a vital segment of American economy has been strait-jacketed into a foreign cartel system, and the free flow of strategic materials vital for war and for internal security has been impeded and delayed.
This committee has a peculiar responsibility -it has investigated the patent system at a time when it was never more important that we have full and unhampered production and that American business be entirely free of either old or prospective commitments to cartels.
The assistant attorney general asked1 for prohibition of combines of that kind. I am asking the minister again to read carefully Colonel Price's letter of August 18, and Mr. Stuart's affidavit which came with it. If the minister has not a copy, I shall send him this one. I would ask him then to read his own reply. Then I would suggest that he send an investigator to Toronto, to see Mr. Robert Stuart, and obtain from him proof of his statements in the affidavit. If the minister's investigator finds that those charges are substantiated, then I suggest that the minister have some action taken to see that this man gets fair play. He is entitled to it, as a British citizen.
Hon, HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour): I shall be glad to do that.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
102. Fair wages and conciliation, $134,702.
Gordon Graydon: There is one matter I wish to bring to the attention of the minister. I should have liked to have more opportunity to go into it more comprehensively, but perhaps my purpose will be served if I leave with the minister the suggestion that he go into the matter and see if something cannot be

Supply-Labour
done to rectify what would seem to be a grievance held by Montreal aircraft lodge No. 712 of the international association of machinists. The minister will recognize the situation I describe. It has to do with three Montreal aircraft companies, namely, Vickers, Fairchild and Noorduyn. This is a union which represents a large number of employees in those three aircraft plants. During last year and into this spring the whole matter of the levelling out of wage scale in the aircraft industry in Montreal and in other areas has been under consideration. This union is one which can be recognized as a good example of an association of employees which is trying to play ball with the men they represent, with the government and with the public. That is no reflection upon other unions, because, after all, I think that, if one takes them by and large, he will find that the labour unions of Canada are prepared to play ball, not only1 just as well as other sections of our country but in some cases, if I may say so, just a little better. I believe in this particular instance the minister will realize at once what the officers of this union had to go through until this spring, when their case finally was heard by the new national war labour board.
It was not an easy thing to avert some action by employees in these plants, but they did hold off a strike, or other precipitate action, on the understanding that their waiting until the decision was given by the national war labour board would not be prejudicial to their case. However, in bringing down its decision, the national war labour board was unable, under the terms of the reference, or on account of its jurisdiction,, to make an award which could operate retroactively. This placed the union and its officials in a difficult position, and one which those belonging to the union find it difficult to understand.
At the same time it seemed unfair to my mind to penalize the union by virtue of the fact that retroactivity was not possible under the ruling of the national war labour board. I do not intend this evening to enter into any lengthy discussion, but I wish only to leave with the minister the suggestion that he investigate this situation and, if possible, make the award retroactive to the time negotiations were commenced, or when the complaint was first laid.
The minister may say that he cannot do that, in view of existing legislation. I would ask him to review the situation with respect to the legislation, and if he finds it is impossible to do anything with existing machinery, to consider seriously the question of providing machinery by which a remedy could be
effected. I shall leave this matter with the minister for his consideration. I should have liked to discuss it in greater detail, but the lateness of the session, and of the hour, does not permit my entering into any lengthy discourse on the merits of the case. I should like the minister to undertake an investigation of this and to see if some remedy and perhaps some restoration cannot be brought about.


Humphrey Mitchell: I have been in close touch with this organization in Montreal, namely, lodge No. 712. I came in contact with it when I was chairman of the industrial disputes inquiry commission, and I think the union itself will admit that we made a distinct contribution to the working of that organization in Montreal. It must be remembered that they are not a low-paid category.


Gordon Graydon: They are not paid the existing rates in a similar industry.


Humphrey Mitchell: Their rates are as high as the railway rates.


Gordon Graydon: They are not paid as
high as those paid by Canadian Car and Foundry.


Humphrey Mitchell: They are, but I am not arguing that point. I appreciate my hon. friend's interest in this matter. The national war labour board, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice McTague, were generous in the adjudication of this dispute. A request was made officially to me for an amending order which would permit the establishment of the maximum bonus in the aeroplane industry in Montreal. The total amount to be payable over a twelve month period was estimated to be $7,500,000. When I was chairman of the national war labour board I felt that that board should recommend and adjudicate on matters of wages brought before it by labour organizations and employers. I think myself it would be unwise-my hon. friend will understand-for the government to interfere in the affairs of the board which in my judgment are rendering a distinct service to the working people and employers of this country.


Gordon Graydon: The minister must have heard me wrongly; I suggested no such thing.


Humphrey Mitchell: I understood that.


Gordon Graydon: I understand that the decision of the war labour board was that it should only go that far; that the legislation under which it operated prevented it from going any farther.
Supply-Labour


Mr. BLACKMORE:: If I gathered aright the meaning of the minister's words, the government has passed a set of regulations under which the board is unable to do what it should do with respect to this dispute. The board, under the government's regulations, goes as far as it can, and the government feels it should not interfere in the decision of the board. That seems to me to be establishing a most astonishing situation. That is the sort of thing which indicates insincerity with the men, and I think something should be done about it. I am not satisfied with the minister's explanation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
10S.	Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, $63,200.
John Horne Blackmore: I do not wish to enter into any extended discussion on this matter, but I believe that the treatment which has been accorded to our labouring men who have acted in good faith will not be conducive to happy relations between the government and labour. This is a serious matter.
Mr. MaoNICOL: Earlier in the session I expressed sympathy for the hard-working Minister of Labour in the multiplicity of troubles he has to unravel. At that time I said that I wished I could do something to help him. Since then, I have given this matter a good deal of thought and I am going to make a suggestion. Everyone knows that industrial peace is most desirable in peace time, and certainly it is most desirable in time of war. I have always been one who believed that labour should receive a fair return; that the conditions under which labour worked should be of the highest. On the other hand, I have always advocated that the employer should also receive fair consideration. At the present time we are having a number of industrial disputes. We have the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act and the industrial disputes inquiry commission to defend the interests of labour. In times of peace these have given good satisfaction, but the question now is whether their procedure is speedy enough. I have always felt, in all my dealings with men, that we should follow the biblical phrase:
Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him.
I have always thought that the quicker an industrial dispute could be settled, the better, and I question whether the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act and the industrial disputes inquiry commission can give rapid enough action. I was wondering if the minister or

the governor in council would consider the appointment of one or more royal commissioners. These would need to be men with many years of legal experience in labour disputes. There are lawyers in this country who have spent many years in studying and adjusting labour problems, men who have come up from the ranks and who have equipped themselves with a thorough knowledge of labour. I would suggest that such a man should be a lawyer with at least ten years' experience at the bar in order that he be steadied down and have some stability and knowledge of how to deal with labouring men and companies from experience when there is friction between the two. I am going to ask the minister to consider this matter, because I believe this would offer means of settling industrial disputes immediately. The industrial disputes royal commissioner could be sent from his own department; he would be a permanent official, and could assist in settling the dispute immediately. It is imperative that the least possible amount of labour be lost through disputes.


Angus MacInnis: I am fairly well acquainted with the background of these disputes, because I went over them quite recently. I did not raise the matter to-night, because I did not think it would be proper under the item we are discussing. As a matter of fact, I do not think it properly comes under the estimates that are before us to-night, except possibly that a question of this kind might be considered under Department of Labour administration. However, I am not going to continue the debate, except to say that it has been a habit with the Department of Labour to continue over a long period the adjudication of industrial disputes. I could mention half a dozen or more disputes that went on for months and probably years but since the national war labour board was set up there has been considerable improvement. In this particular case, however, I believe that an injustice has been done and that some means should be provided whereby such injustices could be rectified. I do not think it is a matter that the minister can do himself. It would only lead to endless trouble if the minister undertook to interfere and make decisions on his own. The proper procedure for the department, if the machinery is not working properly, is to set up machinery that will work properly, and the minister would act only when the matter was brought to his attention either in or out of the house. I am satisfied that these workers should have received their settlement to a date farther back than was set.

Supply-Labour


John Horne Blackmore: Could the minister assure the committee that the problems of which the labouring people concerned complain in a pamphlet called "Crisis in Steel" prepared by C. H. Millard, have been taken care of so that they are on their way to being cleared up? I have read the pamphlet with considerable care, and although I do not wish to go into the matter at this late stage, I believe that it is the duty of this committee to have an assurance from the minister that the difficulties discussed in the pamphlet are being cleared up.
Before the minister makes any reply, I might point out that this is one of the problems which I had in mind when I said some time ago that I feared this house was going to leave its duties and go home before it had done the things it should do here. I think the hon. member for Davenport spoke wisely when he spoke of the danger of creating friction between the government and labour at this time. We seem to be succeeding very well in the war, but let us never forget for a moment that we can lose this war and lose it disastrously if we provoke labouring men in this country to action which they might justifiably consider they were entitled to take in their own self-defence.
I do not believe the government has played square with labour in the past year. I believe the government has been insincere; I believe it has betrayed labour in more cases than one. I am just going to ask the minister now if he can assure the committee that the matters complained of in this pamphlet are being looked after and that a solution of the problem is honestly and earnestly and sincerely being sought.


Humphrey Mitchell: I assure my hon. friend that the matter is being looked into and that it is being honestly and earnestly and sincerely looked into. I have read the pamphlet he speaks of and have also had conferences with the organization concerned, but I think my hon. friend will agree with me that while this is a perfectly free forum, it is not always the best place to settle industrial disputes. If my hon. friends are ever fortunate enough or unfortunate enough to lead a ministry in this country and my hon. friend becomes Minister of Labour, I am sure he will appreciate that the difficulties and complexities of industrial disputes vary greatly; they do not run in one pattern.
I do not wish to take up further time of the committee, so that I will say just briefly that the organization we are continually developing for the settling of industrial disputes has developed, I think every unbiased observer
will agree, to a stage where it can hardly be compared with the organization we had three years ago. After all is said and done the national war labour board and the regional boards are experimental in character and like all human institutions they are not perfect. But many of the people who criticize the instruments we are using at the moment I feel sure, when the war is over, will be the very ones who will demand their retention because now there is a place for labour to go to where there was not one before. We have dealt with over 16,000 applications with respect to wages and bonus in the past year through our regional and national war labour boards.
My hon. friend may rest assured that the conference I had with the steel workers was a satisfactory one and that steps are being taken by their organization to make the necessary representations to the national war labour board with respect to their claims. But I do not think it serves any good purpose in the cause of settling industrial disputes to suggest insincerity. I do not think that is good for the country. I believe that the record of this country in handling labour disputes in comparison with others of the united nations reflects credit upon Canada in a big way. There are some exceptions, of course; but, generally speaking, I believe that it reflects credit not only upon the employees but upon the employers of this country. In 1917, when we had a much smaller industrial structure than we have to-day, there were two and a half times as many labour disputes. In 1937, in peace time, there were more man hours lost than there were last year. While labour disputes always make the newspaper headlines, very little is said of the day by day work of the conciliation service of the Department of Labour working in conjunction with the respective provincial departments in ironing out industrial disputes in this precarious and difficult time.


John Horne Blackmore: I appreciate the minister's frankness and also his statement that the House of Commons is probably not the best place to settle labour disputes. But I think the minister will grant that it is the inescapable duty of any responsible member of parliament, when he sees abuses or what he deems to be abuses to bring them before the high court of parliament.


Humphrey Mitchell: Certainly.


John Horne Blackmore: And I am quite sure that the minister will grant that I am only discharging what I deem to be my duty as a member of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
5350	COMMONS
Supply-Labour-Unemployment Insurance
Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-
106.	Administration, $5,375,150.
Clarence Gillis: There are a few words I wish to say on the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Act, with particular reference to men coming out of the army. It is not working out as I, at least, thought it would. Until a few days ago I was of opinion that the contribution of the man who served in the armed forces was paid by the government, and that when he came back and went into an insurable employment, if he met with unemployment, he was covered by the act. I find that I was wrong in that assumption, and I have two specific cases with which to support that statement.
In a little booklet put out by the unemployment insurance administration from their office, it says, in section 7, with reference to men serving in the armed forces, that any period spent in the armed forces since July 1, 1941, will count for benefit, ''if you establish that you had within one year from discharge ninety days of insurable employment." That is the joker. The two cases to which I refer are those of two men who were discharged from the army, came back, and went into employment in two coal mines which had a disaster. They were not out of the army and employed long enough to work the ninety days called for by the act, having been thrown out of employment by something which was, of course, unforeseen; nevertheless their claim is held up, and while the ordinary employee of these collieries immediately after the accident happened came under the Unemployment Insurance Act for benefit, the two ex-servicemen, by virtue of that particular clause, did not. Their claims went to the board of referees, and they teceived a decision from the board that because they had not had ninety days in insurable employment they did not qualify for benefit. I bring that to the minister's attention, because it is something which will have to be ironed out. I see a lot of trouble ahead for men in the forces who may run into that kind of situation on account of not having had sufficient time in an insurable employment.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: How long had they worked?


Clarence Gillis: Less than ninety days. One had worked, I believe, thirty days, and the other a little less.
There is something else in connection with theUnemployment Insurance Act which I should like to leave with the minister. I am merely going to provoke his thoughts on these two 
some of the offices in action. I think they are doing a good job with the staffs they have. These offices were originally set up to carry the unemployment insurance business, and they have inherited the job of selective service; in addition to that, many of them are carrying on the welfare work as applied) to men discharged from the army. They are bearing a load which they are not staffed to carry, and steps should be taken to see that these offices are adequately staffed. My observation in going into many of them-and I have been in quite a few, because I do not miss a chance at checking up on them, because I visualize the machinery now set up as permanent machinery which will play an important part in rehabilitation after the war-leads me to think that many of them are being set up on the assumption that they are functioning simply for war purposes. I consider that is wrong. That may not be the intention of the minister or his deputy, but the whole thing seems to be operating on that basis. These offices should be adequately staffed.
Second, many of the men who are carrying that load in the offices and working a sixteen-hour day, although they have been employed there for the past two years and in some cases two and a half years, are still temporary, em-points. I refer now to the offices. I have seen ployees as far as the civil service is concerned. It is not a pleasant position for the man who is handling a job of this kind, taking a lot of responsibility, and certainly not receiving wages commensurate with the responsibility of the job, to be also in an insecure position, practically waiting for someone to replace him. Many of the men to whom I have talked take the attitude, '' It looks to me as though I am just doing the job while it is rough and tough, on the temporary payroll, and that as soon as the war is over, the returned men will get the preference and the chances are I shall be bumped into the street." That is not a satisfactory position for a man who is doing an important job and laying down important machinery. These men should be appointed permanent employees; they should1 at least be given the protection which affords them some stability, so that they will know where they stand and where they will be within the next few years. Also I think the staff should be increased. There are many complaints, but as far as the offices I have been in are concerned I do not hold the personnel responsible. There are not enough employees. In the matter of the welfare officers the Minister of Pensions and National Health, I suggest, should push his department to see that in every important

Supply-Labour-Unemployment Insurance
unemployment insurance centre a welfare officer is installed. There is quite a load involved in the rehabilitation end. So that the three matters which I should like the minister to check up on are: first, the feature of unemployment insurance which militates against the ex-serviceman, so that the system does not work out as it was intended to; second, permanency of employment for men engaged in the unemployment insurance offices; third, in adequate staff in these offices, so that the system will be built up permanently.


Humphrey Mitchell: I thank my hon. friend for bringing these matters to my attention. As a matter of fact, his first suggestion is news to me, and will doubtless be of interest to the Minister of Pensions and National Health.
I have already had discussions on the question of staff. I was in one of the largest cities in Canada the other day, where 20,000 men pass through the offices in a week-almost a division and a half. I said to the regional director, "Supposing you had to deal with 50,000 men, as you might have to do if the war should end to-morrow, or suddenly." I am trying to take the long view of it, that, whatever government is in power in this country at the conclusion of the war, in my judgment there will be set in motion social services of a kind and character which I believe all hon. members think should be instituted in this dominion, and what we are endeavouring to do is to build a machine which will take that load.
What my hon. friend says about the hard work which is being undertaken by these local employees of the selective service is true. It is also true of the headquarters staff. I sometimes wonder how they have been able to maintain it without a break-down in the last twelve months. A tremendous load has been placed on this organization, and when all is said and done it is a question of organization. What I hope we shall get out of this is a trained corps of experts to deal with the problems of the working men and women of this country. Of course that will take time.
As regards the question of permanency, that, of course, is governed by a general policy in all departments. No permanent officials are appointed to the civil service during the war period.
On the question of salaries, I can assure my hon. friend that I do not regard this as my fault; that I have pressed the civil service commission and other agencies of government charged with that responsibility, in an effort to build up what I consider a proper basis of remuneration for people working in this department. I should like to pay them tribute.
I know that to wear the soldier's uniform is a glorious thing, but let us remember that numbers of these people are working sixteen hours nearly every day in the week so as to get this machinery which we have set in motion in the best possible working order. I hope that when the war is over, whoever is Minister of Labour will have an organization which will be prepared to take the load of what I consider necessary social insurance when this time rolls around.


Thomas Reid: May I make one suggestion to the Minister of Labour regarding the unemployment insurance offices? Canada is becoming a great industrial organization; the workers are moving onward to that better day, and as one who has examined some of the offices, might I say that I find, regarding the men appointed to many of the offices, too much stress has been placed on office experience as a prerequisite of appointment? I say this- and I say it in no disparaging sense-that if the minister himself were not Minister of Labour, he might find it difficult to obtain a position in one of the unemployment insurance offices, because, when his application was submitted, they would look at the office experience he had had. I suggest that in this country we are drifting to the same state that exists in Great Britain where there is a caste system. Not long ago the civil service in this city thought the educational qualifications of the men were a little too low and so they brought in some men with M.A. and B.A. after their names; but if you look around the city and ask where those men are, you will find that many of them are the biggest duds that ever were appointed. I am not against education. Far from it; the race from which I have sprung has always laid emphasis on the importance of education. But I am more for the practical man, and you will find that in the British House of Commons this very question was discussed not long ago. It may startle many hon. members to know what a labour man in the House of Commons there had to say on this question. Let me quote:
"As a result of the inefficient and undemocratic system now prevailing", Brown said, "the chance of a boy of 'inferior education' of getting to the top grades in our public service are literally non-existent. A man's educational 'marks' follow him through his career and it is very fortunate that the Prime Minister did not get into the service. His educational qualifications would have kept him in obscurity all his life."
Mr. Churchill, who was educated at Harrow, one of England's best schools, was "a bad student" and his "educational qualifications very low", Brown declared, adding: "Take Lord Beaverbrook. Like Churchill he could not have
5352	COMMONS
Supply-Labour-Unemployment Insurance
passed better than a clerical examination. Yet he is, obviously, a man of amazing drive and capacity and even had he got into the civil service he would have been chucked out."
I have visited many offices and know men who have received appointments, and I can say that many of them have never worked in a factory in their lives. They may be qualified in other ways, but'I do not think they are qualified to talk to practical men such as coal miners and mechanics. The Prime Minister has taken an interest in labour men in this country, and I urge upon him that it is not necessary that men should have long lists of degrees before they can obtain positions in any of these offices. What is important is that men with greater practical experience, who have sympathy with the men that come before them, should be appointed. I do not mean, of course, that the men in the offices have no sympathy, but I emphasize the importance of that point. The Minister of Labour is a true labour man, and he has an opportunity to see that more practical men from the factories are given positions in these offices.


John Horne Blackmore: The two examples brought forward by the hon. member for Cape Breton South bring to my mind a great many thoughts in regard to returned men. I wonder if the Minister of Pensions and National Health would tell the committee whether or not precautions are taken as rapidly as possible to see that such injustices to returned men are rendered impossible. It seems to me that to make returned men ineligible for the benefits of unemployment insurance because they were in the king's uniform instead of being in the ranks of labour is nothing but a blot on our whole way of doing things. Could we have some word from the minister of pensions or the Minister of Labour in this regard? I am astonished that we should have allowed to develop in the country a set of circumstances under which men are discriminated against as were the two to whom the hon. member for Cape Breton South referred. Can the minister of pensions tell the committee what precautions are taken to ensure that this does not happen?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to discuss that in detail tomorrow when my estimates are up.


Gordon Graydon: With respect to the unemployment insurance vote, as I understand it, the offices of the unemployment insurance organization form the nucleus for the national selective service. I endorse at least that part cf the speech which I heard of the hon.
'Mr. Eeid.]
member for New Westminster. I was just coming into the chamber as he was progressing with his argument. One of the grave difficulties; one of the great complaints that come to me and other hon. members of the house, is with regard to the quality of the personnel, in some instances, chosen by the government in connection with national selective service and unemployment insurance work. It is not fair to make a blanket criticism of all local offices of the organization, but it is important to bear this in mind. If ever there were a place where people of the right type were required to handle work of this description, it is in the offices of the unemployment insurance or the national selective service, because I am convinced that either success or failure depends largely upon the relations that are created between, on the one hand, employer or employee and, on the other hand, the general public. Too much care cannot be exercised by the government in the choice of these men. One fault I find with the government is that all this matter of national selective service, coupled as it is with unemployment insurance offices, started far too late as far as the war effort is concerned. One of the difficulties that the minister now has is to find the right men. Men are not as easy to find as they were at one time. As the hon. member for New Westminster will readily admit, the minister is having difficulty in getting the right type of men for the local offices and the general organization. It is not sufficient for the minister to say that he is having a good deal of trouble on that score because the government's policy, framed as it was, has made it impossible to get the men who normally should have been got at an earlier stage.
I simply rose to endorse the principles laid down by the hon. member for New Westminster. The complaint that is made is that too often the wrong people are attempting to carry on this work throughout Canada. It has been one of the blots on the whole situation in connection with these offices throughout the dominion. Returns have been brought down which show, if one reads between the lines, the difficulty which the minister is having, and it is a difficulty which he need not blame upon misfortune or chance, because the government of which he is a member must, in my opinion, take responsibility for the fact that the work was started far too late and that too little was done in the earlier stages in connection with both national selective service and the organization of these offices which have to do with that end of the work.

Supply-Labour-Unemployment Insurance
I conclude my remarks by saying to the minister that there is much to be desired with regard to the whole question of local offices as far as these organizations go.


Humphrey Mitchell: I thank the hon. member for New Westminster for the suggestion he has made. There is a great deal to be said in favour of it. I agree with him, and in the last six or seven months we have been taking greater cognizance of the aspect of the problem which he has mentioned.
May I say to the leader of the opposition that unfortunately many of the men we should like to get are in the armed services, and the government cannot be blamed for that.


Gordon Graydon: I do blame the government in this way, that national selective service started too late. That is the root of the whole trouble.


Humphrey Mitchell: I have made some study of unemployment insurance in Great Britain for many years. I do not say that in any boastful way. When they started in Britain they took in only seven or eight trades. We established our unemployment insurance system in 1941, and I think it was the best and biggest organization job ever done in this country. I believe it will compare favourably with what has been done in any country in the world, in the speed with which the organization was set up and in the way in which it has functioned; I think that statement will meet the approval of impartial observers anywhere. Of course we started on a much larger scale, in conformity with the size of the country, than they did in Britain.
Let me say this, as I have said in other places. People are not fence posts or bottles of milk. You cannot push them around; they are human beings. While engineers and people of that kind have done magnificent things in a material sense, the engineering of men and women is a much more difficult problem than the engineering of material things. As I said earlier, what we hope to get out of this on the whole is an organization of what I might call experts in the engineering of men and women, because, after all, it is only chance that the fellow who is on this side of the desk in an unemployment insurance office is not on the other side of the desk, asking for a job. I think I can say that in the long run we have to sell service to the people of Canada, who are responsible for the creation of this organization.


John Horne Blackmore: I, too, believe that the hon. member for New Westminster did well to bring this matter to the attention of the committee. I have had the feeling also that altogether too much attention has been paid to academic qualifications and certain rules and regulations, and not nearly enough to the stuff of which the individual concerned is made. I should like to commend the minister if he is causing more attention to be paid the human element, and not so much to the question of educational qualifications.


Angus MacInnis: Since we are working overtime, and there is no pay for it, there is no reason why I should not get into this discussion, though I am not going to take very much time. I agree with the minister that the unemployment insurance commission has done a difficult job at least fairly well. In anything I have had to do with the commission, in anything I have taken up with the chairman, the difficulty has been straightened out very quickly, and infinite pains have been taken in doing so. I think we must agree, however, that to find people not only with academic training but with training in dealing with men and women is not an easy task, and we are not going to get those men and women any more easily by reducing the educational qualifications. What we need is not less but more education; then we shall have more people from whom to choose. These difficulties will remain until the people as a whole have acquired a social way of looking at these matters. I only rose to say that in the short time the commission has been functioning and in the abnormal circumstances which have prevailed, I believe a very good job has been done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940-
107.	Government contribution to the unemployment insurance fund, $15,000,000.
Mr. BLAOKMlORE: How long do we intend to stay on to-night? It is after twelve o'clock now.
Joseph-Arthur Bradette: It is only my personal wish, but there are only two or three items left in the Department of Labour, and I thought it might be the desire of the committee to get through with those.


John Horne Blackmore: I just wanted to know where we were going; that was all.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 12.10 a.m.
The War-Allied Operations
[Stage Direction]
Saturday, July 24, 1943