1940-06-06

EUROPEAN WAR


Mr. J. H. HARRIS (Danforth):: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition to the honourable the House of Commons in parliament assembled, signed by members of organizations called to a general meeting consisting of the aldermen of the city of Toronto, the local members of the legislature, public school trustees, separate school trustees, the Liberal association, the Conservative association, Beaches Lion's club, East Toronto Lion's club, Beaches Business Men's association, Danforth Business Men's association, Gerrard Business Men's association. Kingston Road Business Men's association, ward 8 central council, ward 8 ratepayers, ward 8 community and ratepayers, East Danforth ratepayers, the Orange association and the Masonic order, Salvation Army, Oddfellows,
Questions

Knights of Columbus, Beaches Presbyterian church, Glenmount United, Hope United, St. Aidan's Anglican Church, St. John's church, Norway church, and Beaches Olympic club.
The petition reads as follows:
To the honourable the House of Commons of Canada in parliament assembled.
Your petitioners, the undersigned members of the Auxiliary Defence Unit No. 1 (Toronto),- Humbly Sheweth:
Whereas the present world conflict has developed on a stupendous and unprecedented scale into a life and death struggle between Christianity and paganism, which can only end in a victory for the British empire and her beloved ally, France, or else result in the collapse of our civilization and the putting out of the light of freedom as we, of the British empire, have known it since the days of Runnymede, and
Whereas this vast multitude of loyal citizens of the city of Toronto, publicly assembled for the purpose, are of one mind that Canada has not exerted her full strength in man power or material resources, in a supreme effort to meet the challenge of the nazi totalitarian state:
Therefore your petitioners humbly pray that your honourable house urge the government to put forth every possible effort, even to the utmost of Canada's man power and the resources of this vast dominion, to come to the aid of our beloved empire in this titanic struggle for the preservation of Christian democracy:
And further, before it is too late, to require the registration of all aliens in Canada, and to intern for the duration of the war, all enemy aliens or persons known to hold subversive opinions respecting the welfare of Canada, and also that the federal government take steps immediately to register the man power of Canada and to correlate the material resources of this dominion along the general plan as adopted and now in force in the British Isles.
And, as in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
At this meeting there were present upwards of eleven thousand persons, who by standing vote endorsed the petition.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, I did not like to interrupt my hon. friend when he was speaking, but as there are a number of new members of the house I think perhaps I ought to draw their attention to the fact that the method which my hon. friend has taken to present this petition is not the correct one. Any petition is usually presented to the clerk first, and then later it is read to the house by the clerk. I mention it because I think it is advisable that we should keep as strictly as we can within the rules of procedure.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	In the dominion-provincial youth training school at Medicine Hat, in the year 1939-40, how many male students from outside Medicine Hat were in attendance?
2.	For which of these was a return fare paid at the end of the school term?
3.	For which of these was the return fare not paid?


Mr. McLARTY:: 1.	77.
2 and 3. The youth training agreement provides that travelling expenses of trainees from their homes to a training project and return, or from a project to certified employment, are shareable costs between, the dominion and the province except that no return fare is shareable for those who are discharged or who leave voluntarily. The number of individuals who had such expenses paid is not a matter of record with the dominion.


MELFORT, SASK., EXPERIMENTAL FARM HERDSMAN
Mr. WRIGHT:: 1.	Was one James Duffin employed as herdsman at the Melfort experimental farm?
2.	If so, for how long?
3.	Has he been dismissed, and, if so, what was the reason for his dismissal?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	October 17, 1938, to May 31, 1940, inclusive.
3.	Yes. Services unsatisfactory.


ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY-TRAINING SCHOOLS FOR OFFICERS
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Have any other training schools for officers of the Canadian navy similar to the one at Kingston been established?
2.	If so, where, when were they opened, and how many have been graduated from each of them ?
3.	How many of such graduates have received app o in tments ?
4.	To what rank are they appointed on graduation ?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	No.
2,	3, and 4. Answered by No. 1.

Radio Broadcasting



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CARDIFF:: 1.	Did any agreement exist between the Department of National Defence and any of the Canadian meat packing firms as to the prices for foodstuffs to be delivered to the Department of National Defence, for the six months period beginning April 1, 1939?
2.	Did this agreement remain in effect after Canada's entry into the war?
3.	Has any claim for increased prices been made by anyone for goods furnished to the Department of National Defence from the date of Canada's entry into the war until the expiration of the six months period above mentioned?
4.	If so, to what amount?
5.	Have such claims, if any, been paid?


FLYING CLUB FACILITIES FOR TRAINING AIRMEN
Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	How many aero clubs in Canada offered their facilities to the government for training airmen since war started and what are (a) their names, and (b) location?
2.	With what clubs were contracts made and quotas assigned, and what are (al quota of each, and (b) number of pilots trained?



RADIO BROADCASTING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) inform the house why TransRadio news broadcasts are to be prohibited over Canadian stations? Does the minister consider that the cancellation of contracts with this friendly news service will encourage confidence in the official Canadian Broadcasting Corporation news bulletins?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport):: My hon. friend was good enough to give me notice of this question, which notice reached me only a minute or two ago. It is not my understanding that Trans-Radio news has been prohibited. The matter is one that was dealt with by the board of governors of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation at their meeting last Saturday, and the information that has reached me is that both the British United Press and Trans-Radio news service have had their permits cancelled as of July 1 with the understanding that if they can show before that time that their news source is accurate, new permits will be issued. There are three sources of news in Canada, the two organizations I have mentioned and the Canadian
Press. There has been some trouble over news being put out in an unduly alarming form and many complaints have been received from radio listeners in this connection. There has also been difficulty in ascertaining the exact ownership of Trans-Radio news. The owners are believed to be two gentlemen in the United States. This organization puts out bulletins with a London date line, but we have not been able to find its London offices or London sources of news. All these matters are to be examined into and if these organizations can show their bona fides, permits will be restored.


Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition) :: These news bulletins have to pass
the censor here, do they not? Does the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation constitute itself a censor of British news, through whatever channel it may come?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As a matter of fact the news is not censored before it is issued. TransRadio news comes in over the radio to the different distributing points. I am not suggesting that it would not be possible to censor this news, but as a matter of fact the machinery does not operate in that way. The particular station is held responsible for the news it broadcasts, and is responsible to the censor if alarming or untrue statements are put out. The censor does not attempt to censor news coming from legitimate sources in London and elsewhere. This would not be done in any case unless we had reason to believe that messages were being put out under a London date line which did not originate in London.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
another thing.



CANADIANS IN ENGLAND


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence):	Yesterday the hon.
member for Broadview (Mr. Church) put the following question to me:
Can Canadians, who were domiciled in England at the outbreak of war, enlist over there in the Canadian forces as they did in the great war?
I may say that the policy with respect to. enlistments in England has been based upon the following considerations:
(a)	There are many non-permanent active militia units wffio have not yet been represented in the Canadian active service force.
(b)	Training centres are localized in Canada.
(c)	Voluntary enlistment in Canada exceeds, the vacancies available.
National Defence
[Stage Direction]
Canadians who are permanent residents of Great Britain have not yet been made eligible for enlistment in England with the Canadian forces. There have been exceptions to this in the case of a number of individuals possessing special qualifications for a particular appointment where alternative suitable appointees were not readily available. The question of wider enlistments is receiving the attention of the department.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: I suggested the other day to the
Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) that efforts should be made to open recruiting offices in the northeast portion of New Brunswick. I understand that that suggestion is already in effect. I have received word from Campbellton to the effect that there are a substantial number of recruits there. It is requested that they be permitted to do some preliminary training in the town of Campbellton, instead of being rushed off to some other part of the province or possibly to Aldershot, Nova Scotia. Could the minister tell me upon what principle this thing is handled? Are orders given by the district officer commanding, or is he directed from Ottawa?
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence):	Instructions go out
from the adjutant general to the district officers commanding. I have no information on the particular matter raised by my hon. friend. I appreciate the importance of having early training done in the localities in which men are enlisted, and I shall be very glad to look into the matter.



VETERANS HOME GUARD-USE OF ARMOURIES FOR ORGANIZATION AND TRAINING

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) which is somewhat similar to the one just asked. I have received resolutions from local branches of the Canadian Legion, particularly the ones in Moosomin and Indian Head in Saskatchewan, asking that as far as possible armouries in the province which are now closed should be opened and used in organizing and training the veterans home guard. They ask also that these units should be properly equipped for emergency. Is the minister giving any instructions along these lines?

Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): I shall be glad to take note of this question. My hon. friend will realize that the armouries that might be opened would probably be in places where units of the veterans home guard would be localized. I shall be glad indeed to see if this suggestion can be carried out.



ALLEGED REFUSAL TO REEMPLOY MEN SEEKING ENLISTMENT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):: I should like to ask the Minister
of Labour (Mr. McLarty) if he has been notified that the management of the Drummond mine at Westville, Nova Scotia, is refusing work to employees who lost time endeavouring to enlist? As a result the mine is idle. What immediate action does he propose to take to enable these men to resume their proper employment?


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: The hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) was kind enough to give me notice of this question. I may state also that shortly before noon I received word from the secretary of the Canadian congress of labour along similar lines. Since that time we have been endeavouring to get in touch with the management of the mine at Westville, but without success because of an electrical storm which is now on in that district. We have been told that contact can be made in a short time. I can assure my hon. friend that every step possible will be taken to deal with the situation when the facts are definitely known.



CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUATION


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of National Revenue) moved the third reading of Bill No. 28, to amend the Civil Service Superannuation Act, 1924.
He said: The leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) asked me to get certain information and give it to the house on the third reading. He wanted to know whether the governor in council had power to pass order in council P.C. 2262, which carried out some of the recommendations of the committee that dealt with amendments to the act. I am in receipt of a memorandum from the deputy minister of justice in which he gives the opinion-begs to advise-that by virtue of section 11, subsection 3 of the Civil Service Act, the governor

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Ross (St. Paul's)
in council had power to enact the provisions of order in council P.C. 2262 of August 11, 1939.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Wednesday, June 5, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. McLarty-Mr. Vien in the chair:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide assistance in the alleviation of unemployment and agricultural distress out of moneys appropriated by parliament, and for such purpose to supplement the measures taken by the provinces towards providing assistance to those in need, establishing unemployed persons in employment and training and fitting suitable persons for productive occupations, and also to provide financial assistance to the provinces by way of loan, advance or guarantees out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund, and for the appointment of necessary officers, clerks and employees.
Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Last year I spoke in this house with reference to the transient unemployed in Toronto, more particularly in connection with what is known as John Frank's house, and I referred to what had been done there. There were about one hundred homeless transients who were looked after by John Frank's house and by public spirited citizens in Toronto. After they had been rehabilitated they made certain proposals to the government with respect to what might be done to continue the work of rehabilitation, but they were turned down by this government on the ground that no exception could be made. In consequence, in Toronto this year, we have again been faced with the problem of these transient young men, who might almost be called men without a country; nobody owns them, and they were forced to live in Toronto under conditions under which no one would want to have an animal live. They are certainly a fine body of young men, but they were treated terribly. This must not happen again. Some method must be devised to take care of these transients.
The same thing is true of homeless unemployed men. They do not seem to get to first base. When war was declared a good many of these transient young men came to Toronto in the hope of getting into the army. A great many of them did not even have money to get back. They had lost their jobs and for various reasons they could not get
into the army. Something must be done about them; some method must be found of taking care of them. Even if the provinces will not come to their aid the government of the dominion must. I presume the same bill that we have had in the past will emerge from this resolution. There will be practically no changes. The government, under this legislation, is trying to take care of the relief situation and of agricultural distress by the back-door method; or rather, one might say, the government is trying to work from the bottom up instead of from the top down. There is no coordination in the situation.
The report of the national employment commission was brought down in 1938, but the most important of that commission's recommendations has not been touched. It will be found at page 43 of the report. The commission declare that they have finished their work, which has been in an advisory capacity, and they report that the only possible way of taking care of the unemployment situation in Canada is, in their opinion, to establish an administrative body to work in conjunction with certain local organizations and with those citizens in the various parts of the country who are community minded. That is the most important part of the report, but nothing has been done to carry it out.
How in the world can we expect to handle the unemployment situation unless we have some dominion body who will look after it? Unemployment is not merely a problem of the individual living in some particular province. He is an unemployed Canadian and he may be employed somewhere else. There is one thing further that I would touch upon here. A few figures were given with regard to the seasonal increase in the number of people on relief. I have taken a few of these figures from the report made under the act of 1939. In September, 1937, there were
100,000	heads of families on relief and in March, 1938, there were 144,696, an increase of 44,696. In September, 1939, there were 107,696 heads of families on relief and in March, 1940, there were 138,455, an increase of 30,759. Comparing 1939-40 with 1937-38, that means a diminution of only 14,000 in the seasonal increase; yet we have had a war on since September of last year, and we still have that seasonal increase of 30,000. Then as far as individuals are concerned, we have a seasonal increase of 13,000 on relief to the end of March this year. These are urban recipients. We have a total seasonal increase of 157,000 individuals on relief in the urban centres. And we have a war on!
Day after day there come to my office in Toronto literally hundreds of people who
560	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Ross (St. Paul's)
want to know where they can get work. They ask: "Why can't I get something to do? Is there any place in Canada where I can get a job? I will go anywhere, and do any kind of work." But still they cannot get to first base. They go to the employment office, and they are put on the list. Skilled workers who have had jobs are in demand, but skilled workers who have been out of work for three to six years just cannot get anything. We are going to need more workers, and the task that confronts the government at the present time is to get these men trained so that they can do the work. This cannot be done unless there is coordination, and the administration body to which I have referred should be set up to do this job. It is just the same old story all over again: year after year we come here, and great promises are made; the unemployment commission was practically going to cure relief, and the government were going to cure it as well, but it is just as it always was. There is no method; there is no driving force behind the handling of this relief situation; money is just spent in any old way, so far as I can gather. It is just a makeshift. This is surprising to me when it is considered that the Prime Minister has told us, as one hon. member mentioned before, that we have in the cabinet the best brains in Canada; yet that "best brains" outfit have not brains enough to overcome a few difficulties.
One difficulty, the government say, is that this commission recommended by the Purvis report cannot function. Have we not an interdepartmental committee as well, formed under the Purvis report? It cannot function, we are told, because the provinces will not let it function. And the best brains of Canada at the present time are trying to handle this situation from the bottom to the top. This unemployment situation has to be cleaned up. We have got to get away from the relief business; it is destroying the morale of the people. We are letting the people down. These men and women who are so anxious to do something for Canada have no leadership whatever. The government cannot tell me, with all the things we require in this country, that if this administrative body were set up there would not be coordination between it and the heads of industry and labour. I have great faith in the enterprise of our Canadian industrialists, and in our workmen as well, but they cannot get to first base unless they have leadership. That is what is required. Something must be done, and I say to the minister that as the first step he should set up that body.
We are in a war now. There may be certain constitutional difficulties, as they call

them, concerning dominion-provincial relations, but war materials have to be made; we have to see to it that these men who have been idle are trained so that they can get back to their jobs. We must remember also that the people who are going to have to make these things are people in the higher age classes. I am all in favour of youth training; it is a splendid idea, but thousands of these younger people who have enlisted and will enlist more and more as time goes on will have to be replaced by older people; and where are we going to get the skilled labour required when already we almost have a shortage of it? These men have to be trained. Before the bill to be based on this resolution is brought down we should have a clear statement of government policy with respect to this whole situation. I am afraid that the real reason we cannot get any statement of policy from the government is that they have no policy in regard to the matter. That is the answer.


Mr. ALAN CHAMBERS (Nanaimo):: I
have listened to what some hon. members have said with regard to non-compliance by this government with the recommendations of the national employment commission, headed by Mr. Purvis of Montreal. Hon members have before them a copy of the report made in January, 1938. Hon. members will remember that at the first session of the new parliament elected in October, 1935, in pursuance of a statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) there was set up by this house through the National Employment Commission Bill a national employment commission which was intended to consist of representatives of labour, capital, youth, women's organizations, economic experts and so forth. The commission functioned and made reports from time to time. Several hon. members have stated categorically that none of the recommendations of this commission have been carried out. I propose to show that this statement is not quite in consonance with the facts.
The first work of the national employment commission was to find out what was the problem of unemployment in Canada, what it amounted to, how it was distributed geographically, and what form it took in the various sections of Canada. The first thing that was done, therefore-and I was glad to hear one hon. member refer to it a day or two ago-was to take a complete registration of persons on relief throughout Canada. That registration has been maintained from the time the commission ceased its work up to the present. The government, therefore, have been in a position to know continuously

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Chambers
since this first registration, what the unemployment situation has been, especially in regard to relief, in the various sections of Canada. Consequently it has been possible for the government and the Minister of Labour to formulate policies from time to time along the lines recommended by the commission to meet the varying conditions in the different parts of Canada.
Hon. members might like to have some comparison between the situation when the first registration was made and the situation at the present time. When the attack of the government on unemployment began in February, 1937, when the first registration was taken, some 260,000 fully employable persons of both sexes were receiving public assistance in Canada. In February, 1939- prior of course to the outbreak of the war, and two years after the government had begun their attack-this figure, by the application of the principles recommended by the national employment commission, had been reduced by some twenty-five per cent. The latest figure, that of January, 1940, shows a further reduction since the war began of about fifteen per cent for all Canada. These figures are from the director of unemployment relief, Department of Labour. This is in spite of a fifty per cent increase in registered unemployed persons on relief in the province of Quebec. I think you will agree with me, Mr. Chairman, that that makes a very big difference in the total figure for Canada.
In the report of the commission dated January 26, 1938, a national registration was recommended. I have dealt with that. They also recommended a nationally coordinated, directed and operated employment service. It is true that this recommendation has not been carried out; and I doubt very much if the employment commission expected it to be carried out when they made it, for this reason. I refer to the second section of the letter of transmission which accompanied the report, directed to the then minister of labour, the present Minister of National Defence:
As requested by you, the commission lias given consideration to the fact that the royal commission on dominion-provincial relations is investigating certain questions which have also come within the purview of the national employment commission. For this reason the commission has indicated in its report where certain action would, in its view, be contingent upon such financial adjustments as may emerge from the report of the royal commission on dominion-provincial relations.
It is unnecessary to remind hon. members that the report on dominion-provincial relations was tabled only at the opening of this session. I am not endeavouring in any sense
to beg the question. The remarks of the hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross) are much to the point as to the necessity for a national employment service, but he and other hon. members of this committee will recognize immediately that such a matter is an integral part of a national unemployment insurance measure, and that to have introduced it while the Sirois or Rowell commission was sitting would not have furthered any real planned attack upon unemployment.
The next recommendation of the employment commission was the setting up of a national advisory committee, and that recommendation was carried out. I know it was carried out, because I was a member of that committee. In addition to the general committee there were two committees set up to further advise the employment commission, and since the national employment commission resigned the minister has kept the members of those two committees in touch with the plans for the reconditioning and rehabilitation of both younger and older workers. They have done this work in a purely honorary capacity, not by visits to Ottawa or anything like that.
The next recommendation is one of the greatest importance, dealing with the question of the administration of assistance in connection with the reconditioning, reemployment or employment of homeless adults. These are the transients to whom the hon. member for St. Paul's referred a few moments ago. Let us see what the government have done since 1937-38 to carry out that recommendation. First of all they recommended to the provinces a farm employment plan. It was felt that if men who had worked on farms or who knew something of that work could be shown how to obtain farm employment and assisted into that employment, at least by being on the farm they would have an opportunity to take stock of their situation. I agree that it was a temporary measure, but action was taken and the recommendation of the employment commission was carried out. The recommendation was adopted by the provinces of Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. In 1936-37, forty-eight thousand men were placed on farms in those provinces, of whom 22,000 remained on the farms after the period of government assistance expired. In 1937-38 some 43,000 men were placed on the farms, of whom about 15,000 remained. In 1938-39 some 32,000 were placed, of whom about 10,000 stayed on the farms. Just here I should like to interpolate that the situation described by the hon. member for St. Paul's would not exist if the government of the premier of Ontario had cooperated with
562	COMMONS
Unemployment Reliej-Mr. Chambers
this national government in its endeavour to take care of the transient problem in Ontario. And I should like to go further and say that if the plan for the relief of homeless, transient men in Ontario, as put forward by the Minister of Labour to the premier of Ontario, had been accepted by that province, the western provinces would not have found many hundreds of young Ontario men drifting out there, as was the case between 1936 and 1938.
In addition to the main farm employment plan there were other, supplementary plans for the provinces of Alberta, Manitoba and British Columbia, under which in 1936 some
7,000	men were placed; in 1937 some 4,500 men and approximately the same number in 1938. These supplementary plans were also open to the other provinces if they desired to take advantage of them. In addition the youth training section of the work of the Department of Labour has been open to homeless transients though they had no domicile and therefore technically were unable to take advantage of that plan. I quote from the Youth Training Act, of which paragraph (ii) of the interpretation clause states:
. . . deserving transients certified as eligible by an appropriate provincial authority. . . .
So much, then, for action along the lines of meeting the problem of homeless transient men. I would not want members of this committee to think for a moment that I consider the action taken to be completely adequate; but if I may I should like to set forth more or less exhaustively what the record indicates as having been done.
The next recommendation of the employment commission deals with the question of housing. Those who have perused the report will realize that when the employment commission began their work they found a heavy carry-over of unemployed persons from the depression and were faced with an annual increment of about 300,000 unemployed young people coming out of our places of education. On the other hand they found that with trade figures going up, employment was expanding. But they found one section of Canadian economic life in which that expansion was not taking place; that was in the construction industry. Therefore, naturally, they made several recommendations to give the building and construction industry a shot in the arm, if I may use that expression, knowing as they did and as we all know that as long as an industry of that magnitude lagged behind, a great deal of unemployment slack would remain not taken up. The government accepted that recommendation and implemented it by extending the operation of the act placed upon the statute book by the administration of
rMr. Chambers.]
Right Hon. R. B. Bennett. I am able to give the house some of the figures with regard to the implementation of that recommendation of the employment commission.
Up to May 31 of this year, 16,550 family housing units have been financed under the national housing measure, the amount of the loans being $56,000,000 and the estimated amount of construction financed about $70,000,000. The estimated expenditure for direct labour in this connection, which of course is most important since this is an unemployment relief measure, is some $27,000,000. I submit to members of the committee that this is a definite achievement.
Again, on the question of housing, I believe it was the present Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) who made the original suggestion at the session of 1936 that a plan such as was later introduced, namely the home improvement plan, should be instituted and put into operation. Under that plan the credit of the Dominion of Canada would be placed behind any citizen who could meet the specified regulations, and under it that citizen would be able to carry out repairs or necessary alterations to his home or to the buildings adjacent thereunto which on account of the depression he had been prevented from making.
The minister at the time accepted the recommendation and proceeded to carry out what came to be known as the home improvement plan. Up to May 31, 1940-and I am attempting to bring my figures as nearly as possible up to date-some $42,000,000 has been guaranteed on loans. The estimated direct labour cost of work done under this scheme, the assistance to tradesmen who had been either employed or unemployed, as the case may have been, amounted to $18,000,000, and the estimated man-hours of work stands at about 27,000,000.
I do not think any hon. member will disagree with me when I say that the government has implemented the recommendations of the national employment commission so far as housing is concerned. In addition to that the National Housing Act was amended by the present administration in 1938 by the addition of a section permitting municipalities to set up schemes whereby block or mass housing, commonly known as low-rental housing, might be undertaken. I agree with hon. members who say that full advantage of this opportunity has not been taken, but I believe we should continue to give credit to the government for having provided the necessary statutory authority, and I sincerely hope that hon. members may be in a position to give such advice to the government as will enable this section of the statute to become more

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Chambers
operative so as to provide better housing conditions in the slum sections of our Canadian cities.
The sixth recommendation of the national employment commission had to do with training and reconditioning. From the outset that was intended to operate in the field of youth. It was felt that among the 450,000 young unemployed men and women the depression had left as a legacy to the government which assumed office in 1935 there were many who were in need of reconditioning, whose weakened moral fibre and desire to struggle to obtain employment and whose lack of experience were tremendous factors in preventing them from gaining employment in what was then a rising or expanding employment market.
The government therefore accepted the recommendations of the national employment commission to proceed to carry out training and reconditioning. I should like to place before the committee some facts in this connection. Hon. members are no doubt aware that in the first instance training and reconditioning were carried out by virtue of the yearly legislation, similar to that which will be founded on the resolution we are now discussing. In 1939 owing to the success of those plans, a measure, upon which the Youth Training Act was founded, was introduced. May I tell hon. members that from 1937, when the first work of this kind was undertaken, until March 31, 1940, a total of 165,000 young men and women of Canada who had been unemployed received reconditioning training and rehabilitation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How many of these youths got jobs, outside of those who went into the army?


Alan Chambers: I shall be delighted to deal immediately with the question asked by the leader of the opposition. The 165.000 young men and women received training of various kinds. It has taken the form of occupational training, physical training, learner-ship and apprenticeship training, and so on. Forestry training also formed a part of the programme. Of the 48,000 who took training designed to provide immediate employment, 15,500 have been placed in permanent employment. I believe that answers sufficiently the question I have been asked. Under the scheme
3,400,000	days training have been given.


Mr. WRIGHT:: Do those who were placed in permanent employment include men who took the short agricultural courses in the west, men who had come from farms and then returned to their farms?


Alan Chambers: No. The hon. member is referring to what is described as occupational training; those persons would not come within the figures I have just given. They are included, of course, in the total figure of 165,000, but not in the 48,000.
I am glad the hon. member asked that question, because it gives me the opportunity to tell the committee that in addition to the forms of training I have described we have also had agricultural short-course training, and agricultural training in local centres, particularly in the western provinces. All this has been done under the youth training programme. So much for recommendation No. 6.
Recommendation No. 7 dealt with public works. The recommendation of the commission was that public works programmes should be contracted. It was felt by the national employment commission, if my interpretation is correct, that to go ahead and spend large sums of money did not direct or focus the intention of the government sufficiently upon the unemployed themselves. In other words it was established by the economic advisers of the commission that of 8100 spent on ordinary publics works programmes only $31 would find its way into the pockets of labouring men, and that the balance was paid for administration and, more particularly, for supplies.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Material would be the largest item.


Alan Chambers: Yes; I did refer to supplies. In other words one might say there was a wastage of nearly 70 per cent of the $100 to be spent on public works. The national employment commission therefore recommended contraction in the expenditures on public works. The report contains the recommendation that public works when undertaken by joint agreement between the provinces and the dominion, through the expenditure of moneys supplied by the Department of Labour, should wherever possible help particularly those in need, and that the highest possible labour content per dollar of expenditure should be arranged.
I have the pleasure of telling hon. members that this policy adopted by the Minister of Labour and by the provinces in connection with the expenditure of these funds has raised the labour content of each dollar expended from 31 cents on the dollar to over 80 cents on the dollar, and that in pursuance of the carrying out of this recommendation many miles of tourist roads have been built in various sections of Canada, and many new mining areas have been opened for further development, at a crucial time in Canada's history. This has resulted from the carrying
564	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Chambers
out, by the Minister of Labour and his associates in the government, of the recommendations of the report.
The eighth recommendation of the commission had to do with agricultural relief. It was felt by the commissioners that the relief situation and the methods of handling relief in provinces preponderantly agricultural were not what they should be. The report states that the recommendation has not been implemented. We must remember that the report was made in 1938, and may I say at this time that in so far as the government has been able to implement the report, it has been implemented. The successful operation of a scheme of that kind must depend upon two parties, namely, the provincial government in question and the dominion government. Naturally the provincial government had ideas of their own on the subject. Nevertheless a great deal of assistance has been given to the three provincial governments of preponderantly agricultural provinces by virtue of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, both of which have been utilized to carry out the recommendations of the national employment commission. I could give the committee figures on that, but I do not want to be too dry.
The ninth point of the commission's recommendations concerns auditing. It was felt that the old system of post auditing of relief accounts did not allow the heads of provincial governments or of municipalities to arrive at an understanding of what their policy should be, because they did not know their financial position as they should know it when called upon to make a new agreement with the dominion at the beginning of the fiscal year. The recommendation of the commission that a current audit should be set up in place of a post audit has been carried out.
Recommendation No. 10, for the organization and coordination of aid, has also been carried out in so far as it has been practicable and acceptable to the provincial governments, which, as I say, must agree to the changes suggested by the dominion government.
In addition there were several general recommendations which are not contained specifically in the schedule of recommendations but which are of importance, and upon those I should like to dwell for a few moments.
There was the question of rehabilitation through land settlement. It is mainly in the province of Quebec that anything has been done along these lines, and there some 4,000 families have been settled.
The recommendation as to the establishment in the Labour department of a women's bureau has been implemented by the appointment of

Miss Alexander, of Winnipeg, as assistant to the supervisor of the youth training plan in the department, to carry out the training and reconditioning of youth.
The rehabilitation of older workers has also been carried out. In the last two and a half years some 9,000 of these older workers have received training and reconditioning.
A further recommendation dealt with the establishment of a division in the Department of Labour for extending the learner-ships and apprenticeships plan. That also has been carried out by the appointment of a supervisor of the youth training plan.
That, Mr. Chairman, is a brief summary of the carrying out of the plans recommended by the national employment commission. The question has also been raised, what is the situation now that war has broken out? What is the position with regard to the mobilization of man-power? What can be done and what should be done? With regard to training persons who are unemployed to meet the demands for labour, I am sure that the hon. member for St, Paul's does not consider that he can make a skilled workman in a very short time. I also noted that he said he had great faith in the manufacturing industries of Canada. I have too, but I should like to tell the members of this committee that the national advisory committee to which I have referred, and of which I was a member, sent out a questionnaire to the organization of manufacturers of Canada, pointing out to them that with an expanding trade market it must be recognized that sooner or later there would be a big demand for skilled workers, and pointing out too that there was a great number of younger men who were then unemployed-and after all you should be able to train them better than the older men-and they were asked how about preparing for this demand before it actually came. We sent them a simple questionnaire consisting of three questions, and I should like to tell the committee what the result of that was, without any prejudice. The first question was-and do not forget that the questionnaire was sent to almost every manufacturing business right across Canada: Do you find that in your business you are facing a shortage of skilled labour? We made a composite answer of the replies received, and the composite answer was yes. They did not say that they had a shortage at that time, but rather that they were facing a possible Shortage of skilled labour.
The second question was: Do you not think that something should be done in the form of training to prepare for the inevitable demand for skilled workers, which by your own admission you anticipate? The composite answer to that was yes, we do.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Chambers
The third question was: Do you think that the training should be done by you in your own business, and are you prepared to do it, or do you think it should be done by the government? The composite answer of the manufacturers to whom the hon. member for St. Paul's has referred was: No, we should not do it ourselves, and no, it certainly should not be done by the government. That is a matter of record.
Although it is of little use to refer to these things, when one considers that the labour problem in the manufacture throughout Canada of equipment necessary to the war effort is largely going to be a matter of quickly adapting more or less skilled labour to mass production, I do not think the question is entirely irrelevant.
The hon. member for Peel asked why it was that in view of the large amount of war orders that have been placed in Canada there should be at the end of April a large number of persons still receiving public assistance. May I run very briefly over the unemployment situation in each province since the war broke out.
At the present time in Nova Scotia the relief figures reflect an improvement in employment. The total numbers of employable persons on relief have been reduced by between 60 and 70 per cent of the number in the previous year. In Prince Edward Island the relief totals since January have been higher than those of a year ago, owing to a change in the loan policy which has officially added 950 fishermen to the relief rolls because assistance was given in the form of loans. That is not necessarily relief. In the province from which the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) comes, I know that it will be a source of great pride to him to know that there have been no registered persons on relief for some time past.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the hon. member allow me to tell him why? There is no relief administered by the government of the province-not that there is no necessity for relief, but they just cut them off. The cities are giving relief because they are obliged to do so.


Alan Chambers: I think the leader of the opposition will bear with me when I say that so far as reports made by leaders of the government of New Brunswick to the Minister of Labour here are concerned, there is no reference to persons on relief.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is no registration. They just cut them off and let them shift for themselves.


Norman Alexander McLarty: My hon. friend will agree that is not the fault of this government.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I agree, but I am not suggesting that.


Alan Chambers: In the province of Quebec the situation is very different. The outstanding feature of business in the province of Quebec has been the rapid expansion in manufacturing since last fall. In March of this year there were more workers employed , in the province of Quebec than at any time previously in the history of the province, although this month is not usually a busy month. Textiles, pulp, paper and mining are all showing an increase in the number of workers engaged.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: If that statement is correct, would the hon. member explain why the number of people receiving relief in the province of Quebec has increased?


Alan Chambers: I do not mind being interrupted by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson). I think hon. members will agree that I have rounded out every statement I have made so far. If the hon. member will let me complete a statement once I have started to make it, he will get his answer before he asks his question.
Textiles, pulp and paper and mining are considerably busier, but since the beginning of the war construction has fallen off quite badly. The province of Quebec relief totals are about fifty per cent higher than they were last year. This is due chiefly to the fact that large numbers who were employed on relief works became unemployed and were added to the direct relief rolls. This will probably answer the question asked by the hon. member. May I say also that more than half of the employable persons on relief in Quebec are general labourers and construction workers who would not be affected by improved employment conditions in the manufacturing industries. The situation in the city of Montreal has remained static. The fifty per cent rise in the province is not repeated in the case of Montreal, but there has been a transfer of relief workers.
In Ontario manufacturing during the first quarter of 1940 has improved considerably, averaging thirteen per cent higher than the same period last year. The sharpest increase in employment has been shown by the heavy industries, textiles and so on. There has been a reduction of about thirty per cent in relief costs as compared with a year ago. Business generally in the prairie provinces has been somewhat better, although employment has not been stimulated to the same extent by war time activity as it has been in the industrial provinces. There has been a six
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Unemployment Relief-Mr. Johnston (Bow River)
per cent improvement in industrial employment in the prairie provinces and a seventeen and a half per cent reduction in the number of those receiving public assistance.
In Saskatchewan there was a large reduction in agricultural relief following the distribution of the 1939 crop. I do not want the hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen) to feel that I do not appreciate her point of view in this connection. I know exactly what this means. However, conditions are easier with regard to public assistance, the official improvement being in the neighbourhood of fifty per -cent. Alberta relief totals have shown an improvement, the betterment being between thirty and forty per cent. The amount of relief which will be necessary in the prairie provinces during the coming fall and winter will depend largely upon the prices received for the 1940 crop.
In British Columbia, the province from which I have the honour to come, economic conditions improved considerably last fall and this improvement has been maintained to some extent. Mining and shipbuilding have been quite active and employment generally in many industries during the first quarter of this year has been more active than at any time in their history. However, we fear that a lack of shipping facilities on the Pacific coast may affect employment conditions. Fishing and agriculture are not particularly active in British Columbia during March, and there is no reasonable basis for comparison. Taking the province as a whole, there has been a twelve per cent decrease in relief during March as compared with the previous period.


Mr. C. E. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to deal with this resolution at great length, but I feel I must say a few words before it is put through. The resolution reads in part:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide assistance in the alleviation of unemployment and agricultural distress out of moneys appropriated by parliament, and for such purpose to supplement the measures taken by the provinces towards providing assistance to those in need.
In this critical time in the history not only of Canada but of the British empire, it is almost an insult to our intelligence that there should be a resolution on the order paper to provide assistance to one of the greatest industries in Canada, an industry which is most essential to the proper prosecution of the war. The resolution proves that the people of this country are in need of financial assistance and are in dire distress. We must do everything possible to carry this war through to a successful conclusion. Everything must be done with that one object in view.

When w'e consider the agricultural question we should keep in mind the fact that it is necessary to assist this industry in a way that will help to win this war all the sooner. In my opinion we cannot win a war when the greatest industry in the country is in distress. You must have a united people to win a war.
At the beginning of the war it was said by some members that we were not fighting the German people, that we were fighting a dictator. I said that I did not agree with that statement; I said that we were fighting the German people. It has been my conviction from the first that we were fighting the German people. The German people are fighting for an ideal. In our estimation that ideal is entirely wrong. We contend that it is a heathen nation which is fighting a Christian nation. But they have organization; they do not have discontent in their ranks. In order to meet them we must face this fact squarely, that we cannot have a proper military organization with a dissatisfied agricultural industry. Why have we a discontented agricultural industry? The people in this industry are dissatisfied because they are faced with economic insecurity.
You cannot have people fighting for a country who have dissatisfaction in their minds. You cannot expect an army to be successful when it is made up of volunteers who have been forced into it because of economic conditions. You cannot force people to fight; they just wrill not do it. But if you can set an ideal before them and show them that they are fighting for something worth while, then you will have men who cannot be beaten. Our army is made up possibly to the extent of seventy-five per cent of men who have been forced into it because of economic conditions. As was pointed out not so long ago by a speaker in this house, with the exception of the war industries, industry generally in Canada is shutting down. This forces men into the army. They are not volunteers in any sense of the word; they have been forced in because of economic conditions. We cannot hope to wage a successful war under the conditions that prevail. We must see to it that there is neither unemployment nor agricultural distress and that it is not necessary for us to supplement measures taken by the provinces towards providing assistance to those in need. That is what this resolution proposes, and the very resolution tells us that the whole economic system is wrong.
I am surprised to hear Conservative members telling the government that they should do something about unemployment and agricultural distress. What did they do in the five years they were in power? Not a bit more

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Johnston (Bow River)
than the Liberal government has done in the same length of time, and possibly not as much-and I am not saying that the Liberal government has done much either. I know that it has not tackled the problem in the way in which it should be tackled; otherwise there would be no need of this resolution on the order paper. The only thing I can remember the Conservatives doing was advising the people to tighten their belts, and the Liberal government is doing the same thing when it extends a little bit of measly relief to the needy. That sort of thing creates dissatisfaction. It creates unrest in the minds of the people, the very people we want to fight for us to-day. It creates a want of confidence in the government. These people might well ask themselves, as I have too often heard: "Why should I fight for Canada when the country does	not	even	give me	a decentstandard of living, when my wife and children are not properly fed?" You cannot expect it. I say definitely that you cannot build up an army on that kind of material. There must be satisfaction among the people, among those men who are willing to volunteer to fight for the country; they must feel that the country will properly and adequately provide for their wives and children not only now but afterwards. You	must create that	spirit	of
patriotism, because you cannot force it.
I was impressed by the remarks of the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) the other day. In my opinion he produced evidence that could not be disputed. He had actual photographs-and the camera does not lie. The hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen)	also	gave	a perfect	picture	ofthe conditions	that	exist	in her province.	I
know that the conditions are exactly as they have been described, because I had an opportunity to visit the country around Swift Current in the last election in that province and I saw what things were like then. I saw the distress and poverty that existed in that province; and despite the remarks of the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Tripp), as reported at page 554 of Hansard, I declare that the conditions that have been reported are not at all exaggerated. The hon. member said:
I was a member of the legislature in Saskatchewan for eight years, four of them being from 1934 to 1938, and I can say all the statements he has made to-day are not true.
I hope the people of Saskatchewan will read those words in Hansard. I challenge any man from Alberta to make any such statement, because we know that the conditions are there.


Mr. DONNELLY:: In Alberta or Saskatchewan?


Charles Edward Johnston: In Saskatchewan too.


James J. Donnelly: You are wrong.


Charles Edward Johnston: I hope you will go back and explain it to them.


James J. Donnelly: I will.


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. Challenges are out of order.


Charles Edward Johnston: I was not challenging any hon. member.


Thomas Vien: The hon. member
should address himself to the chair.


Charles Edward Johnston: I have no wish to offend the chair; I wish to abide by (he rules of the house. I say in all sincerity, however, that if we are to win this war the government must rectify those conditions. When any hon. member stands in his place here and says that there is no poverty or distress, the resolution itself contradicts him. Either the government is wTrong or the member who says that there is no distress or poverty is wrong. But one has only to visit these places to see with one's own eyes the very conditions that have been described in this house.
I have been considering the condition of those people who are in great need, as this resolution indicates, those who have been living on our farms, the unemployed who are walking the streets-and you need not go to the west to find such people, because you can find them in plenty on the streets of Ottawa. You will find the unemployed at the offices here seeking employment which they cannot get, while their wives and families are in dire distress, and yet we in this house vote $100,000 for the beautification of this city. I am not complaining about having a few flowers in the parks and perhaps decorating a little the memorial down here, though we had better pray that there are not more dates upon it soon. But does that type of legislation lead to satisfaction and unity among the people? There are people who are starving to death though we can spend $100,000 in war time for a few flowers in a few parks. I have no objection to your spending money on these flowers and these parks, but when we cannot find money for the very essential assistance to relieve agricultural distress, then I say it is a shame that we should ever be spending $100,000 for the beautification of any place, memorial or anything else until this problem is settled.
Why is it that the people of Canada engaged in that great industry, the backbone of this country, are in distress? Possibly our Conservative friends can tell us. They were in
568	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Johnston (Bow River)
power for five years and the distress continued throughout that time, and because that distress continued the Conservatives were cleaned out in the election. But I do not think the Liberals should pat themselves on the back simply because they were returfied to power. They were returned to power under different conditions, which we need not go into in detail now. Why is this industry dissatisfied? Because farmers have not a sufficient return from the things they produce to enable them to maintain a decent standard of living. When a man gets up at five o'clock in the morning and works until ten or twelve at night, three hundred and sixty-five days a year, and cannot make enough to buy decent clothing and food for his wife and his children, has he any incentive to fight for the country? Can you build up an army with such people? And seventy-five per cent of those in the army are men of this description. You simply cannot maintain the morale.


Mr. EVANS:: Does the hon. member say
they are not loyal?


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow Ri-er):: No, but
I say, let us give them something to be loyal for. You cannot force patriotism. You must show a man that he has something worth fighting for. Would any hon. member say that when these people have been in such dire distress and poverty and want they have anything to fight for? They do not get sufficient return for the things they produce, yet the things they must have in order to be able to produce are ever increasing in price-[DOT] machinery, oil, gasoline; everything they have to buy is increasing in price. This year we even put a little further tax on them; if they want decent seed they have to pay cash to have it tested. Everything we do tends to increase rather than decrease their costs, and nothing is being done to help them.
It must be a source of satisfaction to the people referred to in the resolution, suffering as they are from unemployment and agricultural distress, and they must swell with patriotism, when they see in the papers that this year the profits of Canadian Wineries are higher, and that the net more than covers the dividend paid of forty cents a share. Let me quote from the Financial Post of May 11, 1940:
Sales of Canadian Wineries were higher in the year ended April 30, 1940, than in the 1938-39 year, A. G. Sampson, president, informs the Financial Post. As a result the company expects to report net profits higher than the forty cents a share earned a year ago.
Then there is another industrial company such as an hon. member was speaking of a moment ago, and in which he has such pride

-and compare them with the greatest industry of all, the agricultural industry. This is from the Financial Post of the same date:
International Paper profit soars. Net earnings for first quarter rise to nearly $3,000,000. Preliminary figures indicate that operations of International Paper and Power Company for the first quarter of 1940-
And we are right in the middle of a war.
-resulted in net earnings of about $2-9 millions against $12,428 for the corresponding period of 1939, according to a statement made by R. J. Cullen, president, at the annual meeting of stockholders.
In the Financial Post of June 1, 1940, I see that Agnew Surpass has made better profits in the fiscal year ended May 31, and the factory is working at a higher rate. Harding Carpets' profits for the six months' period are up from the same period of 1939. Why is it that the profits of these industrialists continue to rise to such heights in time of war while agriculture is down in the mire? It just doesn't make sense. Yet there were to be no profits or blood money in this war! I agree there is going to be no profit-


Mr. HOMUTH:: That may not be on war work.


Charles Edward Johnston: Oh, I can speak of the war industries, and I intend to do so before the session closes. How do they make their profits? I hope to have the pleasure of going into that more in detail on the estimates. Hon. members say it is not war work. I happened to visit not long ago some of the industries that produce war materials and I learned that the government, when they agree with the manufacturers on a price, have an understanding that if the company can cut the cost of the article they get a bonus on it as high as fifty per cent. Why should they be given an extra profit of fifty per cent? The fanner is not given any bonus. Why not? Why are these other industries which are not producing war materials shut down and the people thrown out of work? Where are they to seek employment? Yet we bonus the war industries fifty per cent if they can chisel the cost down a little. We shall have more to say about that when the proper time comes. These are the things that create a clear class distinction between industrial organizations and the agricultural industry. We should be giving a great deal of attention in an endeavour to correct this wrong. I read in the Ottawa Journal of June 3:
Big programme to supply Britain food.
Government will force farm workers to stay on land.
England wants food and wants more food; yet our people here in Canada have not even

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Bruce
enough money to put in the seed to raise wheat. Is that a maximum war effort? We have been in this war nine months; the very existence of the British empire is at stake, yet we have a resolution here to dole out relief instead of putting that industry on a solid working foundation. We in this country should be producing everything that we can. Why don't we? No doubt some hon. members are saying: "Where are you going to get the money?" I do not care where you get the money from, but get it.


An hon. MEMBER:: How?


Charles Edward Johnston: Oh, Mr. Chairman, here we are, an intelligent House of Commons-I hope-assembled here for the purpose of carrying on this war and other business. We have the material in this country, we have the men anxious to work, yet some hon. member asks, how are you going to get the money? Well, let us issue money through the Bank of Canada in terms of public need. If you turn a herd of hungry hogs loose in a wheat field-I used this illustration in my campaign-when they have the desire and the food is there, they will at least know enough to eat it. I wonder sometimes whether the people of Canada have as much intelligence.


Mr. HANSELL:: The hogs do not have any parliament to legislate for them.


Charles Edward Johnston: There may be something in that, and they do not have to follow rules and regulations; the material is there, the desire is there, and so they eat. We have the material, we have the men, and Great Britain is pleading for the products, yet we say, where are you going to get the money?


Mrs. NIELSEN:: What about taxing these big corporations that are making the big profits?


Charles Edward Johnston: An hon. member says, why not tax the big profits that are being made in this war. I have always taken the stand that there should be absolutely no profits made in war, and for the life of me I cannot understand why any man in this country-and this includes members of parliament-should get more than the soldier gets in the field. He gets $1130 a day, with an allowance for his family. What is he doing for it? He is going to the battlefields of Europe where he may get his head blown off, his arm or leg shot off. Is there any hon. member who will say that any industrialist or member of parliament or anyone else should be paid more than the soldier gets? He is not offering as much. Yet we have the manufacturers of this country saying they would
not work for five per cent profit, so that that provision was rescinded by order in council. We know what would happen at the front if when the order came to go over the top the soldier getting $1.30 a day said: I will not do it until I get $1.35. We will ask the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), what would happen to that man? Then I say the same treatment should be given the Canadian manufacturer who says he will not work for a profit of five per cent in time of war, and I do not hesitate to make that statement. They should be all on the same footing. Surely if our soldiers have enough patriotism to go over and fight for $1.30 a day, there should be a little more patriotism among our manufacturers and those of us who stay at home, who are being protected by the men who go overseas.
I certainly hope the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) will see to it that something is done immediately so that we shall not have to dole out relief to the unemployed who are in dire need and to those suffering agricultural distress. The times are too serious for that. Our very existence as an empire and a nation is at stake. I do not think we should be dilly-dallying around; we should be doing everything in our power to carry on this war and bring it to a successful conclusion. When anyone refuses to do that, I would treat him as a person should be treated when he refuses to work for his country in time of need. There should be no distinction. There should be no class distinction. There should be no industrial class distinction. Everyone should be treated alike. There should be no favourites. If what I suggest is carried out, we shall have a contented and happy people; we shall not need to force them to patriotism; they will have something worth while to fight for.


Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: The problem of relief is, to a large extent, the problem of unemployment. If every able-bodied person in this country were gainfully employed, there would be no problem of relief. Yesterday the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) quoted from the report of the dominion commissioner of unemployment relief and gave figures showing the appalling, steady increase in unemployment since the beginning of the war. These figures were convincing evidence in support of the charge of complacency and neglect in mobilizing, even partly, Canada's industries for the war effort. I assume, if I am able to show that Canadian industry is capable of building tanks and other instruments of war in a large way, it will be conceded that this will quickly absorb all our unemployed and take them off relief. Incidentally it will also

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Bruce
relieve the country of much of the expenditure proposed in the resolution we are considering to-day.
When in answer to questions the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) stated in this house on May 28 that as yet no tanks had been made in Canada, the country was shocked. The minister made two excuses: first, the difficulty in obtaining the latest British design and, second, that the armour plating for modem tanks, 4| inches in thickness, could be obtained only from two or three sources within the empire. I have checked the minister's statement with men thoroughly conversant with every phase of steel production and fabrication, and they were very much annoyed at this reflection on Canadian industry. I am informed that the Dominion Foundries and Steel Limited of Hamilton have on hand machinery and plant to roll at least 3,000 tons of prime grade steel armour plate monthly. This armour plate can be produced in a wide range of sizes and in thicknesses from one-eighth of an inch to six inches, with alloys suitable for the manufacture of various types of tanks. These plates can be made in all ordinary sizes up to a maximum weight of 7,500 pounds per plate, which is ample for all practical purposes since most plates used on tanks weigh much less.
I would point out that steel armour plate two inches thick by 5J feet wide and fifteen feet long would weigh 7,500 pounds. After being rolled, the armour plate is subjected to additional processes, including hardening, flattening and cutting to size. This company now has considerable facilities for performing these operations. Whether or not its present finishing machinery could keep pace with a programme of great magnitude would depend upon the design and specifications of the tanks undertaken to be built. Furthermore, the management are prepared to install promptly sufficient equipment to double their present capacity for rolling armour plate should orders for a large number of tanks be forthcoming from the Canadian ordnance. This plant is the only one in Canada equipped to roll heavy steel plates. The same company has a capacity for producing 2,000 tons of alloy steel castings monthly, suitable for the manufacture of tanks. The Canadian Car and Foundry Company of Montreal also have considerable facilities for the production of steel castings, and at the present time they have idle sufficient capacity for over 1,000 tons a month. Other plants also are prepared to deliver at once castings suitable for tanks.
The International Harvester company of Hamilton have plant and machinery fully
[Mr. Bruce.l
equipped for the manufacture of heavy truck engines. They have no orders for the production of tank engines, but if such orders were forthcoming they could, with very little trouble, rapidly change over their production lines accordingly. It is a reasonable probability that the International Harvester company could provide motors for tanks as quickly as the bodies of the tanks could be built and assembled. However, the selection of a Canadian plant to manufacture engines for tanks will depend upon the type of engine specified. The Oshawa plant of General Motors, and other Canadian companies, are already manufacturing heavy gasoline engines in this country. The plant of the Dominion Engineering Company at Montreal is making diesel engines up to 600 horse-power. Ample diesel and gasoline heavy truck engines are also available from United States manufacturers. There is no scarcity of these engines corresponding to the current scarcity of aeroplane engines. It is not advisable to attempt to duplicate the English engine absolutely but rather we should adopt some similar engine from among those quickly available here.
Treads are made from steel castings or forgings, joined by alloy steel bars. The Canadian Car and Foundry Company of Montreal and several other foundries have ample idle plant capacity to produce the necessary castings. Atlas Steels Limited of Welland and other mills are able to produce the necessary alloy steel bars. Boring and finishing of the steel castings and general assembly of the treads could be undertaken by the Peterborough plant of the Canadian General Electric Company. The Caterpillar Tractor Company in the United States holds patents on the caterpillar tread, but arrangements could undoubtedly be made by the Canadian government to get authorization for the use of these patents.
Other operations in the manufacture of tanks, including assembly, could be performed in any one of several available factories depending upon the weight and specification of tanks chosen. The plants of the Dominion Bridge and associated companies at Toronto should be readily adaptable for this purpose.
There is also available for assembly the large and modem structural steel plant of the Hamilton Bridge Company at Hamilton. This plant is not busy at the present time and it has all facilities for the assembly, riveting and finishing of heavy and light tanks.
Also located in Hamilton is the complete modern plant of the Canadian Westinghouse company This company is suitably equipped

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Bruce
for the manufacture of metres, gauges, instruments, electrical systems, et cetera, and other fine assemblies necessarily incorporated in tanks.
In the interests of rapid and economical manufacture it is recommended that a modified Canadian design be evolved instead of an attempt being made to duplicate exactly any British tank. Many of the British specifications have been worked out to suit existing machinery and materials available in Great Britain; identical conditions cannot easily be duplicated here.
I am sorry the Minister of Munitions and Supply was not in his place when I commenced to speak on the subject of tanks.
If we take, for example the analysis of steel, it can be readily seen that an analysis may be specified to enable easy production from the iron ores and coals mined in England. Obviously, with different types of materials available here, there might be much difficulty in reproducing the identical English analysis. In view of the urgent need for speed, therefore, it should be the government's policy to adapt, in the Canadian design, such materials as are currently available here. Although the parts of our tanks will not be interchangeable with the parts of corresponding British tanks of the same weight; yet our tanks will be equally serviceable and valuable, and the time saved in initial production will be very great.
Using British designs as a basis, a competent group of qualified Canadian engineers should be able to work out a complete Canadian design within thirty days. The first tank should roll off production lines after an additional three or four months. Within one year production should be up to a rate of 250 tanks a month. Such a programme would require close cooperation from the Canadian government.
In a broadcast on Sunday last, Mr. Anthony Eden said:
The vital weapon of any country is its spirit. Brave hearts alone cannot stand up against steel. We need more aeroplanes, more tanks, more guns. The people of the country must work as they have never worked before.
And yet Canada has idle factories and idle men.
The Minister of Munitions and Supply proclaimed himself as a salesman for Canadian industry. May I ask him if, acting as a salesman of Canadian products, he went at any time to England himself, to inform the British government of the industrial facilities available in Canada?
If he did not go, perhaps the reason can be found in the report of the royal commission
on the Bren machine gun contract, at page 17, in the letter of the Prime Minister of Canada (Mr. Mackenzie King), of September 12, 1936, replying to a letter from Mr. Plaxton. In this letter the Prime Minister said:
I have delayed in acknowledging your communication of August the 24th until I had opportunity to discuss its representations confidentially with my colleagues in council. I may say, in reply, that we see no reason why a Canadian firm established for the manufacture of munitions should be precluded from obtaining orders from the British government. It would be necessary, of course, to see that it was distinctly understood that such orders as were obtained, were at the instance of the firm itself and not either directly or indirectly, at the instance of the government of Canada. Any company doing business will of course be subject to any regulations or control which the government may decide to exercise at any time
In view of the Prime Minister's letter, the claim of the Minister of Munitions and Supply, to be a salesman for Canadian industry, would seem to be rather far-fetched.
Assuming that Britain has not made use of Canadian industrial production, why did Canada not show some initiative and give a practical demonstration of her independence by supplying her own forces with guns, tanks and full motorized equipment, as part of Canada's war effort, instead of placing the whole burden upon Great Britain, whose factories were already overworked in equipping her rapidly increasing army?
After the Prime Minister, on Tuesday last, had informed the house of the return to England of aeroplanes on their way to Canada, he added that these aeroplanes were ordered in April, 1939. May I ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply if he will inform the committee if at that time any orders were placed with our Canadian plants for aeroplanes?
To anyone who read an account of what happened in the Polish campaign as well as during the last three weeks, it will be perfectly clear that we must have armoured troops and tanks to protect and precede our divisions of infantry or rifle units into battle. Without tanks, masses of troops are a liability rather than an asset; they have to be fed, clothed and transported and cannot be used for any purpose except digging trenches or other work behind the line, or for occupying heavily fortified positions such as the Maginot line.
Apart from armour plate which can be obtained in Hamilton, there is no technical difficulty about the production of tanks that cannot be quickly overcome by Canadian manufacturers. Owing to the present serious situation, it is not likely that we can get British army tanks or the necessary tools to

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Bruce
make them. It would, therefore, seem expedient to provide for our immediate requirements by purchase from United States manufacturers or to get released from the American army a United States army tank or tanks so that the Canadian army may standardize on these rather than wait for eight or nine months for British tools, plans, et cetera. It is absurd to say that all our equipment must be British, standardized equipment-it was not so in the last war. For the first year and a half of the last war, Canadian troops were supplied with American Colt machine guns, because the British could not supply us with Vickers. It is simple enough to arrange for a supply of spare parts et cetera, in the same way as the Royal Air Force is able to supply parts for a great variety of aeroplanes, including those purchased in the United States.
I think it will be clear from what I have said that Canadian industry can make tanks. If given the opportunity, it can make anything that can be made anywhere in the world.
Canadian industry at the present time is prepared to make guns and, I am informed, is already producing guns at the Marine Industries plant, on orders from the French government.
Since the last war, our industry has grown in technical experience and skill. It has grown in size enormously, has highly skilled technicians and is making many products which, even for a number of years after the last war, were not made here. Canada is now making, in competition with the entire world, such things as motor cars, rolling stock for railways, et cetera.
It must be obvious to anyone in this house that his many duties as Minister of Transport, which include railways, canals, trans-Canada air service, meteorological services, marine and radio, and the national harbours board with which the minister is now weighted down, make it humanly impossible for him to discharge his increasingly important duties as Minister of Munitions and Supply-duties which are so vital at this time.
On May 20 the Prime Minister expressed his recognition of the difficulty. May we soon hope to learn that action has been taken and that the Minister of Transport, who recently had superimposed upon him the work of the munitions and supply board, be now relieved of that work, and that a separate ministry of munitions and supply be created. The government should be able to secure from outside this house the services of an able executive, a man with an intimate knowledge of Canadian industries and with driving force

to get things done quickly-such qualities as are possessed by more than one of our industrialists.
Mr. Bevin, a Labour leader, now Minister of Labour in Mr. Churchill's cabinet, speaking in England to-day made the significant statement that since labour had been fully recognized in the reorganized British government, production had been in some instances stepped up by 100 per cent. Is this not a lesson from which Canada may very well profit?
Having regard to the imperative necessity of securing the sympathetic support and full cooperation of labour in our war effort, would it not be good common sense for the government to appoint as Minister of Labour a man who is himself identified with labour and recognized as a representative of labour.


Mr. POULIOT:: Who? What man, please?


Herbert Alexander Bruce: May I express my appreciation of the courteous way in which the Speaker drew my attention to the rules yesterday, and if it had not been for the hubbub made on the other side of the house I would have heard what the Minister of Munitions and Supply said to me, as well as the Speaker's own remarks. May I say that so far as I am concerned these personal attacks were not unexpected. During the months of February and March when I was a candidate in Park-dale I was bombarded with threatening letters from a former member of this house who for a time sat in one of the earlier cabinets of the present Prime Minister, and who by all accounts still stands high in the counsels of the Liberal party. In these letters, abuse was heaped upon my character and I was warned that, if perchance I should be elected, I would not be spared the full force of partisan anger when I reached the house. The letters seemingly were prophetic.


Mr. GRAHAM:: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask if the hon. member is speaking to the motion.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Certainly he is.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I should like to repeat so that members may hear me that in these letters I was warned that, if elected, I would not be spared the full force of partisan anger when I reached the house. The letters seemingly were prophetic.


Roy Theodore Graham: I ask for your ruling, Mr. Chairman.


Mr.   Fournier. Hull@Acting Chair(man)? of Committees of the Whole: Perhaps the argument of the hon. gentleman is somewhat far-fetched, but I believe he will bring it round to the resolution.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Bruce


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, I have just one word to say to the hon. gentleman. He was speaking of points of order that were little trips to nowhere, but he was so busy reading his speech that unfortunately he did not have time to read the five o'clock papers. Here is the news.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I was speaking before the five o'clock papers were available.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you, but it is never too late. This is what the five o'clock paper says:
"Quagmire" trap halts tanks-hundreds and hundreds are smashed-main forces hold after tanks meet destruction-units that fought through advance French lines cut off from their support.
So at last the German tanks are not meeting with success and hundreds and hundreds of them have been trapped. That is for the information of the hon. member. Furthermore, I would ask the hon. member where he got his technical information on the making of munitions.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Just a word, Mr. Chairman, to clear up the misconception that I was being intentionally rude to my hon. friend the other day. I suggest that if he feels a persecution complex, it is quite unnecessary because since he came to this house he has dismissed the leader of the Liberal party, the Prime Minister, and he has just now dismissed myself.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No; he thinks you are overworked.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not wish to be controversial, but after all when we have a large and expert organization working very hard to do the things which people glibly say can be done without much difficulty we are apt to become a little heated sometimes.
The situation as regards tanks is this. Canada can undoubtedly make a tank, and tanks are made in the United States. However, we have in Europe a battle of tanks which is developing some new facts about tanks as weapons of warfare. For every tank that is invented, a gun is shortly afterwards invented to deal with that particular type of tank, and the effectiveness of tanks in the field depends upon their being proof against the latest type of anti-tank gun that has been developed. The British government have had experience in the field and it has led them to change their ideas about the effective tank for warfare of this day. Their ideas of a tank differ very widely from those of the military authorities of the United States. The remarks I have made from time to time about tanks refer to the problem that we have had
in hand, the building of a tank which will meet the demands of the type of warfare that is being carried on at the present moment in the field.
The academic question whether tanks can or cannot be made in Canada depends for its answer upon the type of tank one has in mind, and I assume that a great many of the differences which have arisen in the discussions here have arisen because some people have one idea of a tank and I have in mind another idea of a tank. We can produce in this country alloy steel up to a maximum thickness of two inches. The type of tank that I have in mind has armoured steel of more than twice that thickness.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that the 80-ton tank?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No; forty tons. We produce in this country gasoline engines that would propel some kind of tank. The tank I have in mind is propelled by a diesel engine much larger than anything we have produced in Canada. It is folly to say that we cannot produce diesel engines in Canada. Canadian industry can do anything provided it is given sufficient time and development expenses. It can be done, but it may not be of much help at the moment. There have occurred within the last two or three days certain developments which have changed the situation as far as the production of tanks in Canada is concerned.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
good. Let us have more action.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is expected that a delegation from this country will leave for England by the next boat to settle this question once for all. I would ask hon. members not to be dogmatic about plants in Hamilton being able to build tanks. Even after all information is obtained and all possible help has been secured outside Canada, it will still be an exceedingly complex job for Canadian industry to build tanks. No one firm will be called upon to do the entire job. It will mean the collaboration of the heavy industries of this country.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I obtained my information from a mechanical engineer who is familiar with the structural steel works throughout Canada. I should like to say just a word in answer to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. He was not in the chamber earlier in the day when I commenced my remarks, and I suggest that he read Hansard to see what I said. I think I gave a good deal of information which may be of value to him. The minister has said that this matter depends
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Unemployment Relief-Mr. Bruce
upon the type of tank to be manufactured. I do not care what type of tank is to be manufactured; it can be made in Canada.


Mr. FRASER (Northumberland, Ont.):: What has a structural steel engineer to do with tanks?


Herbert Alexander Bruce: The armour covering of the tank is structural steel made of a certain alloy, as I explained thoroughly this afternoon.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think my hon. friend's steel expert is the same steel expert that I use,, except that I hired him first. Mr. C. W. Sherman was a member of the war supply board and is now the director of steel for the Department of Munitions and Supply. He has done a tremendous amount of work to help meet this problem. We hope he will be able to continue his work and produce the type of armour plate that will be required.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: In fairness to Mr. Sherman I think I should say that he was not my informant. I do not happen to know Mr. Sherman, but I congratulate the minister upon having such an excellent adviser.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: I understand the steel plant at Sydney is capable of rolling 4-inch plate at short notice and of handling ingots up to thirty tons. Could that plant not be utilized to produce the armour plate required for these tanks?


Clarence Decatur Howe: My understanding is that the total capacity of the Dominion Iron and Steel company at Sydney is being used for shipments to the United Kingdom. I do not want to be dogmatic, but I question whether that plant could roll 4-inch plate.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Would the minister inquire of Mr. Sherman and inform us to-morrow?


Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: I suggest that the Minister of Munitions and Supply engage the hon. member for Parkdale as a tank expert. Then we might get somewhere.


Percy Ellis Wright: Mr. Chairman, I should like to consider this resolution from the agricultural viewpoint. It reads in part:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide assistance in the alleviation of unemployment and agricultural distress.
The discussion I have just heard has been juite interesting, but it is hardly relevant to ;he situation which exists in agriculture at the present time. I cannot see where it has anything to do with the relief of unemployment and agricultural distress. I represent an agricultural constituency. I farmed in the

east for a number of years before the war, and I have farmed in the west for twenty-one years since the war.
We have been told by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) that our export markets are contracting, that many of the countries which previously absorbed our agricultural products are to-day in the hands of the enemy. It is expected that this year we shall have large surpluses of many commodities, such as apples, bacon, canned goods, peas, fresh fruit, and so on. Is it to be the policy of this government to let the prices of these products go so low that it will be economically impossible for the farmer to harvest his crops? Are these crops to be left in the fields to rot?
There is a potential market for many ol these products here at home if the purchasing power of those on relief and of those in the lower income brackets were raised. For instance, Doctor W. C. Hopper, principal agricultural economist in the Department of Agriculture, stated in a paper presented at the meeting of the Canadian Agricultural Economic Society in Saskatoon, in June, 1937:
If the people in Canada who had an income of less than $4,000 per year were to use the same amount of dairy products as those with an income of over that amount, we would need 200,000 more dairy cattle in Canada producing an average of 5,000 pounds of milk per year.
Similar but more extensive surveys have been made in the United States and Great Britain. All these surveys show that more agricultural products can be used in the home markets provided the people have the power to purchase. This home market is right at our doors and it should be developed. We seem to be doing our best to discourage this market by charging our people more for products than they are selling for in foreign markets. Before the war I saw an advertisement in an English paper offering Quaker rolled oats for sale at sixteen cents, whereas the same package cost twenty-five cents here in Canada. Flour, bacon, cheese and farm machinery, all produced in Canada, sell for less on the foreign markets than the cost to the consumer here in Canada.
Our home market could absorb more of these products if the people as a whole were able to afford a higher standard of living. This is simply another example of the hold which monopoly has on this country. The farmer knows that the benefit of the higher prices received for his products in Canada does not go to him. On the home market, as in foreign markets, he is forced to sell his product at a price which is often below his cost of production and is certainly below what he needs to provide himself with a decent

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Wright
living. The benefit goes to the middleman and particularly the processing and distributing monopolies. These corporations have a monopoly at both ends, the buying end and the selling end, and they are therefore in a position to pay the farmer as little as they can and to charge the consumer as much as they can. This is represented quite well in the tobacco industry and in the packing plants of western Canada.
The three constituencies in Saskatchewan in which the greatest amount of reestablishment is taking place are those represented by the hon. member for North Battleford (Mrs. Nielsen), the hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) and myself, so that we can speak with a little authority on what is taking place under the scheme. Last summer I spent some time in the districts in my constituency where many of the settlers who are being moved from the drought areas are being reestablished. On many occasions I became mired in the mud. On one occasion I spent twenty-four hours getting my car out and finally I got a start with a team of oxen and was thus enabled to get out. There are 209,892 miles of dirt road in Saskatchewan out of a total of 445,000 miles in the entire dominion. It is said by a writer on very good authority that 94-7 per cent of all western farms are located on dirt roads, and that does not mean gravel roads.
On the occasion to which I refer I happened to stay with one of the settlers for the night. We had for supper that night and for breakfast and dinner the next day, potatoes, bread, lard, tea and sugar. That was everything they had in the house. They had been on relief receiving $5 a month for the last two years, and this had been cut off in June of that year so that the man would be forced to go out and get a job during harvest time. The lady of the house did not look very well and I inquired about her health. They told me that she had returned three weeks before from a sanatorium in Prince Albert with instructions to live on a balanced diet including considerable milk and fresh eggs, and there she was living on potatoes, bread and tea. In addition to these two people, the only two living things on that farm were two hens, one of which laid every second day. These are the conditions in Canada in 1939. The lady was crocheting some fine needlework; and since there was only a rough board table in the shack, I knew that the needlework could not be for herself. I asked her how she disposed of it. She told me that she had been doing this work in the Prince Albert sanatorium in order to make some spending money, and she was trying to get a dozen doilies finished so
as to raise money to enable her to go back to the clinic in Melfort in three months' time to see whether her cure was permanent or not. Such conditions are a disgrace to the country.
Last summer in my constituency a man collapsed in front of one of the post offices. He was picked up and taken thirty miles to a hospital. He fainted again while being taken into the hospital. The doctors examined him and found nothing organically wrong. They said that all he lacked was something to eat. They kept him a week in the hospital and then returned him to his home to starve. These frightful conditions of the people on relief are aggravated by unjust relief scales. In certain places a family of five receives S30 a month for food, while in the reestablishment blocks in northern Saskatchewan a similar family receives approximately $12 a month for food. May I quote from one of the studies made for the Sirois commission, printed as an appendix to the report:
A basic problem of welfare in the present organization of relief is the fact that no standards have been set up. Municipalities differ in their rules regarding eligibility for relief. Great hardship is caused by a tendency in some places to cut groups of unemployed persons oft relief on technical grounds without making any other provision for them. Many smaller municipalities either give no relief whatever or very inadequate relief. Municipalities generally show wide variations in the amount of food, clothing, fuel, shelter and medical care allowed. In some places no provision at all is made for clothing and medical care. Careful studies by the Canadian welfare council on the actual schedules of relief and assistance given in municipalities throughout Canada give ample statistical proof of this variation in standards.
There is a potential market in our country for a very large proportion if not all of our surplus agricultural products, and I ask the government to consider this for the welfare of the people of Canada. I have before me a report of the municipal doctor for Weldon municipality, one of the best municipalities in one of the best farming districts in Saskatchewan. I quote from what he says in the report given to the council on March 5, 1937:
Having had the privilege of serving the rural municipality of Weldon for two years, 1 am more than ever convinced that undernourishment is a large factor in the cause of illness and disease. There are quite a large number of people living in certain districts in the municipality who have not an adequate food supply the year round, to maintain proper nutrition and supply nature's bulwark against sickness. If some scheme were devised whereby these people could have ample supply of staple foods the general health of the municipality should improve materially.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Mutch
That is not in a reestablishment block but in one of the best municipalities in one of the best farming districts in Saskatchewan. Surely the government should give some consideration to this matter either by raising relief rates or by making necessary supplies available under some scheme such as they have worked out in the United States. A large majority of the people on relief in Saskatchewan do not want relief; they hate the very idea of relief. They want work and wages and a chance to become decent selfsupporting citizens of the country. Under this reestablishment scheme, at least in the west and I believe in Ontario as well, the government have been placing many families from the city on the farm, placing them in an industry that is already producing more than can be disposed of at the present time, and spending thousands of dollars to put them in active competition with men already established in the industry. Why should the farming industry be picked out for this unfair competition? Why not let the government subsidize them to establish cooperative factories, to make shoes, clothing, farm machinery and other necessary commodities or some of the things which to-day in Saskatchewan are classed as luxuries, some of the amenities of life enjoyed in towns and cities.
A study of housing conditions in Saskatchewan as described in the brief submitted by the government of Saskatchewan to the Rowell commission, states:
Farm houses of the prairies are much smaller than those found in other parts of Canada . . . the room space per person is less in the Saskatchewan wheat belt than anywhere else in the dominion.
That will be found at page 293. The brief also states on page 297 that of all farms in Saskatchewan, only 2-8 per cent have gas or electric light, only 1-4 per cent have running water in the kitchen, only 1-2 per cent have running water in the bathroom. I should like to take some hon. members on a trip through some of these reestablishment blocks. Families of six, eight, ten, twelve people live in little two-room shacks built of logs and mud, many of them not even shingled, with sod or rough board and tar paper roofs, rough board floors. Future citizens of this country are being brought up under conditions like that, children never knowing or coming in contact with any of the amenities of life. There are some districts without schools, others in which a year ago last winter several teachers were placed on relief because ninety per cent, of the people themselves were on relief and could not pay their taxes.

Surely it is time we in this dominion woke up to the fact that in permitting this sort of thing we are developing a cancerous growth which is sapping the life of our nation. No nation which permits within its boundaries such extremes of wealth and poverty as we have in Canada to-day is deserving of being called a nation. No nation is stronger than its weakest link. Governments continually harp on foreign markets, subject to conditions over which they have no control. Let them take off their coats, figuratively speaking, and correct conditions that can and should be corrected in this country and many if not most of our difficulties would disappear.
It is the considered opinion of this group and many others that the best remedy for our present situation is to place purchasing power in the hands of the people who are in need of the goods and can use them. This can be done only by having a definitely planned economy. Surely in this country there was no need to have 768,592 people on direct relief in March, 1940, six months after war was declared. I would reiterate what the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) said yesterday, that our great need at the present time is for a planned and concerted war effort. The financial system, agriculture and industry should be organized in such a way that their maximum efforts can be used. Right across Canada we find thousands of people asking what they can do to help in the war effort. Something is lacking when such a condition exists. Only when every man and woman are employed to fullest capacity are we making our maximum war effort. I wrould ask the government to make a national survey, or to organize the information which they now have, to accomplish this end. In Great Britain and New Zealand they have nationalized their war effort, and the time has come when this should be done in Canada.


Mr. L. A. MUTCH (Winnipeg South):: Comparatively few minutes will suffice for what I want to say. Perhaps some of my remarks might be directed to the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe), but on the other hand their connection with the problem of unemployment is very real. I do not propose to spend any time in dealing with what has or has not happened in the past, the causes of present conditions, or what might have been. But at the present time throughout the length and breadth of Canada, so we believe, an effort is being made to utilize all the facilities we possess, including labour, to the greatest advantage for production.
One evening about a week ago the Minister of Munitions and Supply spoke to the people

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Brooks
of Canada over the air appealing for a general speeding up of industry and manufacture, asking for sacrifice on the part of those who are employed, and assistance from employers and from the public generally. In my mail a day or two later I got a letter consisting chiefly of one sentence, which read, "When is Manitoba going to be included as part of Canada?" I may be pardoned if I replied with a little bitterness, "When the budget comes down."
At the present time when factories of various kinds are expanding their capacity steadily and training inexperienced persons as new workers, it seems to us, particularly those in the city of Winnipeg, from which I come, that there is something wrong with the situation; for we have workers skilled in the various industries concerned with war who are still idle and on relief, and others who are working only part time. There will come a time after we have won this war when we shall again have a period of reorganization, and if we are not to be plunged into the difficulties which came after the last war we should give some consideration not only to quantity and speed of production but also to the organization of it, keeping in mind always the fact that the war will not last forever.
We are not giving our people an opportunity for equality of contribution to the war effort by concentrating activity in certain areas and neglecting others; that is laying up trouble for the days to come. Consequently I could not let this resolution pass without drawing again to the attention of the ministers concerned and of this committee the desirability of utilizing all the factories, particularly those presently constituted, which have skilled workers right in their own vicinity. Until such time as these have reached their maximum production, it seems a mistake to expand industries in other more fortunately situated areas. That I can say without detracting anything from my whole-hearted enthusiasm to push our war effort to the greatest possible pitch. I can say it because I do not think it possible to get the maximum returns from our people in the way of taxation or of united effort or of actual production without wholehearted consideration being given to every section. I admit that in the time since this parliament assembled, the situation has improved very much over what it was a month or two ago. But I urge again that it be not overlooked that we should diversify production as much as possible, paying particular attention to the utilization of all the skilled labour which is already present in this dominion.


Mr. A. J. BROOKS (Royal):: It is not my intention to make any extended remarks on this resolution, but there are some matters I should like to discuss for a few moments. During the past five years in which I have been in the house I have had more or less sympathy with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) and his department. I felt that he had an exceedingly difficult task, one of the most difficult portfolios in the government. But in these times, with a war on, it seems strange to me that this condition should persist. Frankly I would think that the Minister of Labour would have now one of the easiest jobs of any member of the government. I believe that if this country had been properly organized for its war effort, if during the past ten months proper organization had been carried on, there should not be in this country to-day one idle man, we should not be debating such a resolution as this but rather the worry of this country and this government should be how to obtain men to carry on the work required.
It seems to me that at a time like this we should not be having a discussion of the question of relief and unemployment. We all remember that during the last war there rvas hardly an idle man or woman in this country. We remember the effort and energy put forward by the government at that time and particularly how the then Minister of Militia, Sir Sam Hughes, searched out not only men for enlistment but factories from the Atlantic to the Pacific to produce something for the carrying on of the war. We know that old and young men and women all over Canada were working in our munitions factories; but now, ten months after the beginning of this war, with a crying need for equipment and more equipment, for aeroplanes and more aeroplanes, for tanks and more tanks, we have one of the worst unemployment problems that we have had to face since the beginning of the depression. And this is the case while thousands of men are walking the streets looking for work, and other thousands of men are dying in France because of lack of proper equipment. I find it anomalous that money needed to equip our forces should be spent to keep men in idleness when, with proper organization, there would be work for all and men would be earning money with which to look after their families.
As I said a few moments ago, this is a serious indictment of the organizing ability and short-sighted policy of our government. Take our enemy, Germany, as an illustration.
I doubt if there is an idle man in Germany to-day. Every man not in the army, and every woman, are producing supplies and equipment for the army, and this has been



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
1. Departmental administration, $120,005.
Mr. GRAYDON:: Mr. Chairman, before
the item carries, I think it would not be out of place if the minister were to give us some general idea of the present plans of the government with regard to the great agricultural industry of Canada in relation to our war effort.


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture):: Mr. Chairman, I had not intended to burden the committee with an address as lengthy as would be necessary to cover all the activities of the department in relation to Canada's war effort. Agriculture is perhaps as directly affected by the fact that the country is at war as any industry in Canada. It is indeed the first industry to be affected by preparations for war. The fact is as old as history itself that whenever, in any country, its leaders have made up their minds that they are going to make war, their first prepara-
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Supply-Agriculture-Administration
tion is their food supplies. So far as the totalitarian states which have been responsible for bringing this war upon the world are concerned, there are no leaders of any other form of government who have taken more care to prepare their food supplies. In the totalitarian states they started many years ago, one government at least fifteen years ago and another some twelve years ago, to prepare their food supplies from within their own boundaries.
Eventually other countries against whom the totalitarian states became a threat were compelled to act similarly in order to protect themselves from the ravages of war when war came. The general result always is that a country like Canada, which by the very nature of things is a producer of surplus food products, is the very type of country first to feel the effect of the preparations that are being made elsewhere for what eventually becomes a world war. For that reason we in Canada, particularly the agriculturists, felt our whole economic system, which depends so much upon the production of agricultural products, affected by the fact that other countries were preparing for war. The fact that they were preparing has not been lost upon the government of Canada, either this government since it came into office or the previous government when it was in power. There were those associated with the agricultural activities of departments of government, and perhaps others in many of our agricultural educational institutions throughout the country, who realized six or seven years ago, and in some instances seven or eight years ago, that Canada was being affected by these preparations which were being made elsewhere, and attempts have been made to meet the situation. The government which held office in Canada during the four years prior to the last election followed the lead of all others in that direction, and perhaps emphasized that some preparation ought to be made against the threat of which the world was even then feeling the effects.
Members of the committee will recall that three or four years ago we made some preparations in the direction of reorganizing the Department of Agriculture. Five or six years ago, and for years preceding that, estimates of this department when they came before the house were in the form of appropriations for a dozen or more branches of the Department of Agriculture having to do with the various activities upon the farm.
We had our dairy branch, our live stock branch, our fruits and vegetables branch, and branches dealing with animal diseases, plant diseases, and so on.
We still carry on all these activities, but we felt that special preparations ought to be made for a difficulty which might arise, and that even if it did not eventuate, preparations should be made to meet the situation created by at least the preparations for war. So we organized the activities of the whole department into four divisions, and from within the department we took three of our most capable men and placed them in charge of three divisions, and we took one man from outside and placed him in charge of what was to all intents and purposes a new branch, the marketing branch. Before war was declared, these men were making a study of the means by which we could get rid of agricultural surpluses in a world where it is very difficult to dispose of the surpluses of our agricultural industry; and in order that they might learn the facts, we established an organization in Britain itself to inquire into the agricultural activities not only of the British isles but on the continent as well. We sent an agent of the department to visit all the European countries and, as was suggested the other evening in discussing the estimates of another department, we sent an agent to all the South American countries to inquire into the possibilities of marketing some of our farm surpluses there. Trade agreements were also entered into which affected the marketing of our farm products, and our marketing activities were also enlarged.
The result was-not altogether because of what these men did or because of what the department itself did-that before the war came, we had at least as healthy a condition so far as production was concerned as we have ever had in Canada, and efforts had been made to market our surplus farm products in other countries wherever that could be done. More particularly we had been making a Study of the requirements of the British market and the extent to which we could dispose of our surplus products there. When war came, we appointed the four directors and the assistant deputy minister as an agricultural supplies board to handle war supplies. When war came, as I emphasized a week or so ago when placing the records on Hansard, we had in Canada very considerable surpluses of

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most of our farm products. As far as wheat was concerned, we had one of the largest surpluses we had ever had. Even at the present time the wheat in storage is the greatest amount we have ever had at any time in the history of the country. We have had large surpluses of pork products, and have large surpluses at the present time. We have had considerable surpluses of dairy products. Where there are not considerable surpluses, as in the case of cheese, there is a larger production of the product at the present time than there has been for some considerable time in the past.
In so far as our farmers' activities are concerned, they have been directing their attention, first, toward the production of those things which are needed in Canada and, second, toward the production of those things needed in other parts of the empire and in those countries presently engaged in war. Since the beginning of the war we have been compelled to ask ourselves what policy we ought to follow in view of the fact that we are at war. Countries that may perhaps go to war have a tendency to store food supplies. The result is that when war does occur, those agricultural countries which are able to produce surpluses sometimes find themselves, during at least the first year of war, writh surpluses they are unable to market.
The question is how these surpluses are to be disposed of. Anyone who has made a study of the last war, or of any similar war which has occurred at any time in history, will realize that during the first year prices of farm products were not usually higher than they were in the years immediately preceding the war. This war has been no exception. Those who have made a study of the situation in Europe, where our products were previously sold and where they must be sold if we are to dispose of them, tell us that even before the present movement of troops occurred across the northern part of France and through Belgium and Holland, agricultural production, particularly in northern France, had tended to be much lower. Estimates were made that even though the troops did not move any more than was necessary in their preparation of trenches and so on, larger quantities of products would be be required next summer than would have been required had there been no movement of troops. The movement of men away from the farms in order to join the armed forces was estimated to have an effect upon the possible market of next year. The result will be that next year there will be a greater demand for farm products.
Because of reports that have been made and information that has been received, this question now arises: What should the farmer produce? We have been constantly saying, and we think it is the proper thing to say, that the farmers of Canada can best serve the interests of Canada and the interests of the allies by continuing to produce those staple products which they were producing before the war started. That is, in so far as they were producing wheat, they should continue to produce wheat. In so far as they were producing different types of live stock, they should continue to do so. In so far as they were producing dairy products, they should continue to produce dairy products.
There may be some difficulty in marketing some of our less staple products, such as fruit, even during the later years of this struggle in which we are engaged. There certainly will be considerable difficulty during the early years. We feel that those who have been engaged in the production of staple products should continue to produce them. Those are the products which are going to be most needed throughout the war period. After the war is over, the farmer will probably find it more profitable to produce the same kind of crop as he was producing before the war started. We have not been inclined to say to people, "Stop growing this and start growing something else," or "Stop raising this kind of live stock and start raising another kind." We have been inclined to tell them to go on doing what they were doing before the war started. If possible, they should try to do it to better effect; they should try to produce a better product and a little more of that product if they can. But they should not attempt to switch rapidly from the production of one thing to the production of another.
In connection with apples, we have been saying to those people in the Annapolis valley, along certain sections of the St. Lawrence and out in the valleys of British Columbia, who have been raising apples, some of them for the past fifty years or more, that they should still be prepared to produce in the same volume. We have gone to greater lengths to assist these growers since the war started than we have to assist any other agriculturist. We are not in a position at the moment to see an outlet for their product, that is an outlet sufficient to take care of their natural production. Therefore we have been following a policy of more or less guaranteeing some kind of market for that part of the crop which in previous years had been shipped to the British market.
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During recent years we have been sending fifty per cent of our apples to the British market. The one part of Canada from which the greatest proportion of the apple crop was shipped to the British market was the Annapolis valley. If I remember the figures correctly, about eighty per cent of the Annapolis valley apple crop has been going to the British market. Only a small percentage of the Ontario and Quebec crops has been going overseas, but about fifty per cent of the British Columbia crop was exported to the British market. Our export to the British market averages about fifty per cent of the total crop of Canada. Immediately war was declared, Great Britain said that she was not prepared to take her usual importation of our apples. After some negotiation we were able to arrange that she should take about fifty per cent of her former importation.
The problem then was: What could we do with the other fifty per cent? About half of what the Annapolis valley people had been shipping to the old country was put up in cans or dehydrated. At the present time we are giving a considerable part of that crop to the Red Cross to be shipped to any place to which they think it should be shipped. This is done after negotiations with government officials in order to feed persons who would not otherwise be in a position to buy apples in any form. It is intended that many of these apples be shipped to countries where refugees are being kept in order to help to feed them. A certain arranged price was paid to the producer. We want to move these apples out of the way before the next crop comes on, and we are now offering a further *quantity of them to organizations like the Red Cross in order that the apples may be shipped out of the country. We think this method of disposal is preferable to the less expensive method of simply taking the apples and destroying them.
Some one might suggest that there are people in Canada who could eat them, and we are making some provision to give them away where they are needed. Last fall we gave away $87,000 worth largely in Saskatchewan, some in Alberta and Manitoba, and in the previous year we gave away $300,000 worth of food. This year we are making provisions for the same thing in connection with processed apples. Generally speaking, that is the policy we are following in relation to the war effort. We are keeping track of what is being done in every part of Canada and of the requirements in other parts of the world. We hope to be able to give direction, if at any time it will help in the prosecution
fMr. Gardiner.]
of the war or in the conduct of agriculture, advising the farmers to branch out from some line they are now pursuing into something else if it will serve the interests of the allies.


Mr. TUSTIN:: As regards the canned apples that are now being marketed, is the government paying a subsidy to the producers?


James Garfield Gardiner: Last year we took all the apples that could not be marketed locally or on the British market, gave the producer a price for them and paid for their processing. They were largely Nova Scotia apples. On May 15 of this year we took over from the processors all the apples they had been unable to sell. We are attempting to market them in Canada and elsewhere, and to the extent that we are unable to do so we intend to give them away by the method I have described. To the extent that we have a loss, I assume it might be said we paid a subsidy.


George James Tustin: I understand that a good many of these apples are being marketed in Canada at a price much less than that at which the Ontario processor is offering his stock. Is the government selling at a lower price, or is it subsidizing the processor?


James Garfield Gardiner: To date no apples have actually been placed on the Ontario market or on any other market by the government. We took over apples as late as May 15. Any apples sold on the market to date were put on the market by those who owned them up to that time-the processors. We have not put any apples on the market. The matter which has brought the question to the hon. member's mind is, no doubt, this. Two or three weeks ago we were discussing with the chain store people and the retailers generally the possibility of putting on the market, at a lower price, the canned apples which we have, but after discussions we came to the conclusion that there were some difficulties in the way, and nothing has been done along that line.


Mr. HATFIELD:: Who was sent to South and Central America to make the survey?


James Garfield Gardiner: Mr. H. S. Arkell, who has made a report which any member may read if he so desires. It is in printed form.


Mr. STIRLING:: I had intended under the marketing item, to offer certain observations with regard to the whole question of marketing; but since the minister, in his interesting account of the general problem, has referred to the matter, perhaps I may discuss it here. The difficulty which confronts the fruit grower in Canada to-day is the one to which the minister has referred, that of taking care of what in the past had been sent to export

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markets, not solely but principally the British market. The assistance which the government has given has been appreciated by the producers, particularly in the recent convention which was held, when fruit growers from all the producing provinces of Canada met the minister and discussed their problems with him. Their efforts have, I believe, met with considerable success. Would the minister be disposed to describe rather more closely the arrangement which the government came to with the growers of Nova Scotia and any other provinces. The government made an arrangement with the growers in the Annapolis valley and also with the growers in the valleys of British Columbia. Perhaps there was an arrangement with those in Ontario and Quebec. That I do not know. If he would be good enough to outline the basis of the arrangement that was entered into, this would give the committee some valuable information.


James Garfield Gardiner: Is the hon. member
-speaking of last year?


Grote Stirling: Last year, unless an arrangement has already been entered into with regard to 1940. Of that I am not quite *ure.


James Garfield Gardiner: An arrangement was entered into last year along the line I was discussing a moment ago; but, as has been suggested, I did not go into the arrangement in detail. Last year war was declared on September 3. That, as every member of the committee knows, is just about the time the apple grower is getting ready to harvest his crop, and on the very first day of the war a statement was made to the effect that Britain desired to take as little of our apple crop as we could afford to have her take, and preferred to take none at all. Immediately that statement became known to the people who had been growing apples, they were of course very much concerned, and naturally those most concerned were the producers in Nova Scotia, who marketed approximately 80 per cent of their crop in Britain. They were the first to come to the government. The growers of British Columbia, who market about 50 per cent of their apple crop in Britain, had been marketing it under somewhat different arrangements from those made by the apple growers of Nova Scotia and were not quite so much concerned, because their apples could find a market, to a larger extent than Nova Scotia apples, under the system they had been following.


Grote Stirling: Great Britain was ready to permit those apples already sold to find shipment to the United Kingdom market?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. The Nova Scotia crop had not been contracted for to the same extent. Our first negotiations were with those in the greatest trouble, the growers in the Annapolis valley, and the result of those negotiations was this, in general terms. We provided that a certain quantity of the usual apple crop be marketed in the old land. We cut the supply down as much as we could by eliminating the varieties not quite so acceptable as others, taking the better grades and varieties and classifying them as apples that ought to be taken care of. Then we negotiated with the British government and found that we could market approximately 50 per cent of what we had been previously marketing in Britain. Britain was prepared to take them, not because she needed or wanted them but because she thought that, in view of the fact that we were in the war with her, she should to that extent assist us in keeping up the morale of our people.
Then, having had some idea that that might be done, we undertook to process half the apples of those qualities which had usually gone to the British market. Those were put through the processing plants as stated. Having done that, we started negotiations with the British Columbia people. We also had negotiations with those who produce apples in the central part of Canada. We zoned the dominion, letting the Nova Scotia people sell their fresh apples as far west as Montreal, the people in the central part of Canada sell their apples from Montreal west to Winnipeg, and the British Columbia people sdil their apples exclusively in the area from the Pacific coast to Winnipeg, including Winnipeg. In the agreement we reserved the right to indicate some later date at which apples from British Columbia might come into Ontario, or apples from the maritimes might come into the Ontario section.
The Ontario people had been exporting only a very small part of their production to the British market, and we therefore had very little difficulty in taking care of the part of their apple crop which was usually exported. As a matter of fact, in the final analysis we did not have to take care of any of them. The Nova Scotia apples were taken care of under the plan I have mentioned, with the result that we had about half of their usual shipments to the old country canned or dehydrated, and a considerable part of that section of the crop we still have. We took somewhere in the neighbourhood of one hundred thousand boxes of British Columbia apples and distributed them free to people on the prairies who were not in a position to

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buy apples. We were responsible for approximately another four hundred thousand boxes at the beginning of the season; but, as the season went along, British Columbia found it possible, partly because Nova Scotia was not able to market all the apples she hoped to be able to market under the system that prevailed of shipping from the eastern ports, to market practically all her surplus crop in the old land, so that we are not going to be required to take care of any considerable proportion of British Columbia apples over and above the $100,000 worth that we disposed of last fall by giving them away in the central part of Canada. We guaranteed a price to British Columbia on certain shipments, and as the season went on, we varied the agreement in order to meet the new conditions that developed.


Grote Stirling: But you did not have to spend any money on that?


James Garfield Gardiner: We expect there will be a small obligation in connection with it, but it will be very small. We put on an advertising campaign in Canada relating to apples in every form, and greatly increased the sale of apple juice through the efforts of apple producers and processors and the activity of the government. The consumption of apples in certain sections of Canada was also greatly increased. I was told no later than to-day by one man who produces apples, but not as part of what he considers his paying crop, that, because of this advertising campaign he was able to dispose of apples to better advantage this last year than before the war started. He is a man who was producing tobacco chiefly, and said he had no hope of disposing of apples this year until action was taken by the government.


Grote Stirling: That is in Ontario?


James Garfield Gardiner: In Ontario. Having had those experiences, we have fairly well come to this conclusion, that while the zoning of Canada into different districts was helpful last year, w7e do not think it would be a wise policy to follow in relation to the apple crop or any other crop over a period of years. In plans for this year we think we should try to keep away from the zoning plan as far as possible. We have had some discussions as to possible agreements with the people in the Annapolis valley. We have said to them that this year we will guarantee eighty per cent of the average price of the last three years for eighty per cent of the apples that the Annapolis valley exported to Great Britain during the last three years. In other words, we are saying to the Annapolis valley people: We will be responsible this year up to a certain price for eighty per cent of your crop.


An hon. MEMBER:: What is that price?


James Garfield Gardiner: The agreement is not entered into yet; therefore we have not worked out the figure, and I would not wish to say what it will be until it is worked out. We have taken care, as far as the farmers' worries are concerned, of eighty per cent of the average price of eighty per cent of his total crop.


George James Tustin: That is the average price?


James Garfield Gardiner: Eighty per cent of the average price for the three preceding years for the highest grades.


Heber Harold Hatfield: When these negotiations were going on with Great Britain in September, and Nova Scotia shipments were held up, how many apples were exported from the United States to Great Britain during that period?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not those figures at the moment, but the order of Great Britain was that she would not take any apples from the United States other than those that had been contracted for. She gave the same order, as I remember, in relation to United States apples as in relation to ours, except that she did not undertake to make any further agreement with regard to taking United States apples. I have not before me at the moment the final outcome of those shipments. But I am dealing at present with the crop which is now growing. When we had negotiated the matter up to that point, the Ontario people, having had a meeting, sent a representative to meet us, stating that they would want to negotiate at a later date. British Columbia sent a delegation which met us last week, and we said to them that we would be prepared to meet them in July or early in August when we know the crop condition and the probable marketing conditions, in order to discuss further any necessity for assisting them in dealing with any surplus they may have this year. We indicated that they would be dealt with on a basis which would compare favourably with the manner in which we have dealt with apple producers elsewhere.


Grote Stirling: The marketing of the
eighty per cent of eighty per cent will remain in the hands of the Annapolis shipping firms? The arrangement does not remove their difficulty in disposing of them? They may choose to destroy them.


James Garfield Gardiner: The present intention is that they remain in the hands of the apple board. The apple 'board which handled the arrangements last year will be continued, I

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understand, and they will probably determine, upon consultation with the government, what will be done with any surplus crop.


Gordon Graydon: I am sure many hon. members have had made to them in connection with the marketing of our apple crop suggestions that the government might have gone further in regard to providing the defence forces of Canada with apples from time to time. One naval man said to me a couple of months ago that while in the streets of Halifax there were numerous signs advertising apples, the navy of Canada in their ordinary rationing were granted only one apple per person every Saturday. Perhaps the minister would enlarge on the government policy with regard to that.


James Garfield Gardiner: When the war began, apples were not among the rations provided the soldiers either in camp in Canada or elsewhere, but the Department of Agriculture negotiated with the Department of National Defence and apples were placed among the rations. I can understand why it may be difficult to have many apples on any diet that may be provided at this time of the year. As a matter of fact, some of us were astonished to find that when we got into the late spring, very few good apples could be found in Canada. When I visited the mari-times in April of this year, just before the arrangements were made for this year's crop, we found that a very considerable part of the apples being sold in Halifax had been shipped all the way from British Columbia. We also found that in certain sections of Ontario, where throughout the winter it had been possible to get the very best grades of apples, it was somewhat difficult to get good apples, and that applied even here in Ottawa.


Gordon Graydon: About what time of year would that be?


James Garfield Gardiner: Along about the beginning of May. We have an idea that possibly, by providing a proper type of storage, we may be able to keep Canadian apples in a condition which would make them acceptable to the general public for a longer period of time than has been found possible in the past. We may be wrong in that; some producers tell us it is almost impossible to keep apples in any form of storage beyond May 1 and be able to sell them, because they lose their flavour, they will not stand up and so on.
At the present time we are experimenting with the dehydration of apples. There was a concern, which will be remembered by some hon. members who come from the maritime provinces, which about two and a half years ago developed a process for dehydrating
apples. They were not able to make a financial success of it at that time, but some of those dehydrated apples are still in existence, and within the last month I had the privilege of testing a package of those apples. I would say that those apples, processed two and a half years ago from fruit grown three years ago, when placed on the table are better than apples carried through in the fresh form from last fall. There are possibilities in that method of preserving part of the apple crop of Canada, to be used not only in Canada but by our armies as well. There is just the possibility that it would be very difficult, as I think it would be, to provide fresh apples to an army anywhere outside the area where they are grown; but there should be no difficulty in providing apples in this form which, when soaked in water and prepared for consumption, have the same flavour and appearance as when originally produced. This particular concern was able to produce a dehydrated apple which three years later was just as good as when it was processed, dried down to twelve per cent moisture, which is approximately the same as good hard wheat. In other words, they will keep for a very long period of time.
In addition, we have air-tight cans of these dehydrated apples going out for the use of the navy. That product is not quite as good as the other; it is less expensive to put up, but it serves a certain purpose, and we are attempting to put as much as possible of the apple crop in that form, for the use of the navy and elsewhere.


Mr. COLD WELL:: May I speak just now as a consumer of apples from a part of Canada where we do not grow any apples. I believe that the consumption of apples, particularly in this part of the dominion, could be greatly increased. I have often heard arguments as to where the best apples in Canada are grown. I am not going to enter into that argument, except to say that when we on the prairies buy a box of apples from British Columbia we buy them by the grade and we know exactly what we are getting. If we are getting a household apple we get a good, sound apple at a reasonable price. If we are getting a fancy apple for the table we get a good, sound apple of attractive appearance. I have been around Ottawa for the last couple of years, and I have found it very difficult indeed to get an Ontario apple that is well packed and attractive. Speaking from my own personal experience, on the prairies we always buy apples by the box, but in Ottawa we buy them by the gallon. We buy the smallest quantity that we can use immediately because in many instances they look



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as if they are bruised and might rot in a little while. I believe the result is that many people buy fewer apples because of the bad packing that one sees in this part of the country.
I know that is a criticism of the Ontario apple industry, but as one who has bought apples in both parts of Canada, that is my opinion. They tell me the British Columbia apple is not as good as the Ontario apple, but it is much more attractive and much more reliable; and it seems to me that if we are going to popularize the use of the eastern apple, the department should do something to encourage better packing and grading of that apple. I believe apple consumption could be increased among our own people, even in this part of Canada, if the apples we find in the stores, grown in this part of the country, were better graded and more attractively put up.


Mr. SENN:: Coming from Ontario, I rather regret to	hear remarks	such as	those	justmade by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell).	I have	been	toldby many people that the Ontario apple was the best flavoured apple grown in the dominion. It may	be true	that	ourmethods of packing are not quite as good as those followed in the maritimes or in British Columbia; but if that is the case, perhaps it is the job of the department to see that	something is	done to	make	our
methods of packing better than they are at the present time.
I was surprised to hear the minister state that no Ontario apples had been processed under these agreements. Last fall I was in an apple growing section of this province, and I was told that our grades had been stepped up and that a large part of our apples had gone into domestic grades, which were supposed to have been processed under government auspices and aid. The minister has told us that apples have been processed, both by way of canning and by dehydration, in the maritime provinces. I wonder if he would tell the committee exactly the agreement that was made with the processing or canning companies, because I have been told that the canning companies themselves were delighted with the contracts that were made, and that they have reaped substantial profits under them, which I suppose is perfectly all right. I should like the minister to state as well whether there were any Ontario apples canned or dehydrated under the agreements made with the canning companies.


James Garfield Gardiner: The agreement is rather technical; it gives all the prices for the different processes through which the apples are put, the costs of picking and of packing, and all that sort of thing. Either last night or to-day there passed through my office a return which was requested by a member of the opposition, concerning those agreements. The return should be laid on the table of the house within the next day or so, and I think it might serve the purpose as well if the discussion on that point were to wait until we get into the marketing section of these estimates, which probably will be some time later than to-night. Then those agreements will be in the hands of members of the committee, and they may discuss them more intelligently than they could by listening to anything I might have to say to-night with regard to them. I might say that none of the Ontario apples were processed under those agreements, the chief reason being that it pays both the producer and the government much better to have the apples sold as fresh apples. And Ontario was able to market its fresh apples under the arrangement made this year to possibly as good advantage as it would have been able to market them had there been no war.


Gordon Graydon: Domestics?


James Garfield Gardiner: Ontario apples all the
way through, with the exception of very low grades.
One other point is that most of the Ontario crop is sold in Ontario, and the dominion government can have no control over the grading or marketing of apples grown and sold in that province. The Ontario government does cooperate with us to the fullest possible extent in trying to do what is thought best in the interests of all parties, both consumers and producers. The Ontario growers were able to get a better price than they could have got if the apples had been processed, and for that reason they were not processed by anyone except in limited quantities.


Mr. RICKARD:: As an hon. member who
grows apples I should like to say on behalf of myself and growers in Ontario generally that we certainly appreciate what the Minister of Agriculture and the government have done for the apple growers in the past year.


Mr. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: What have they done for Ontario?


Wilbert Franklin (Frank) Rickard: The process of zoning
in Canada was a vital factor so far as the growers in Canada were concerned. Had Canadian apples been shipped to any point,

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the Montreal market would have been entirely lost so far as the Ontario growers were concerned.
The raising of grade standards was beneficial as well. I do not think for one moment that we put up as good a pack as we could put up, and yet we certainly are ahead of what we were doing a few years ago. I am convinced, however, that we require better inspection with regard to apples that are shipped. Of course there are inspectors appointed by the government to act here and there throughout the country, but it is impossible for them to watch every apple shipped by truck or by car. To-day truckers are driving to the orchards and buying apples from the growers, and it is almost impossible for our inspectors at all times to look into the grades that are sold. I think they are doing a good job, as far as it goes, but if we had more inspectors and more rigid inspection, we would gain a better market for our apples.
I am certainly in favour of advertising. The advertising that has been done by this government has been a great boon to the apple growers. It has been said that the advertising has brought about the consumption of a third more apples. In my view, others might act in conjunction with the government in respect to advertising. I have always advocated to our fruit growers' associations that they should help in connection with advertising. The fact remains that we shall certainly have to put before the people the kind of product we grow and that we want them to use.
So far as our pack is concerned, my view is that we should get away from the old barrel pack and develop a smaller package, one containing a bushel, a half-bushel, or possibly eleven or twelve quarts. That is the package which the ordinary person wants to buy and can buy to-day.
It seems to me there is something further can be done by the government for the apple grower. I do not know that what I am about to say would come under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Agriculture. I have in mind the time limit on the duty on oranges and citrus fruits coming into this country. I contend that that time limit should be from not earlier than March 1, instead of January 1. When the duty is taken off oranges on January 1, they can be bought very cheaply. Some hon. members will recall that when I spoke last year on this subject, I pointed out that oranges were being sold at twelve cents a dozen, or at one cent each. The apple growers to-day
95826-38J
cannot compete with oranges at twelve cents a dozen, and that is a point which the government should consider.
The minister has said that the government will assume the responsibility for eighty per cent of eighty per cent of the Nova Scotia crop. It seems to me that this would be more apples than we would grow in Ontario. If the growers in Ontario have not already requested the government to continue as it did last year the zoning, advertising and grading operations, with all possible improvements, then I think that request should now be made. The apple growers appreciate what has been done by the government, and trust that it will continue to give them assistance equal to that which has been given in the past year.


Gordon Graydon: Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I cannot endorse in their entirety the glowing tributes which the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Rickard) has extended to the government, but I should like to point out to the Minister of Agriculture that in my opinion the advertising campaign in connection with the sale of apple juice has had a most beneficial effect upon the sale of that commodity.
I always hesitate taking credit to myself, especially when the hon. member for Northumberland, Ont. (Mr. Fraser) faces me. I realize he is apt to object to what I may say. When on a former occasion this matter was discussed, I believe he was one of those who took me to task. I refer to the occasion when I asked the government to make an appropriation in peace time for this very thing. Now, during this war time period, perhaps I may be pardoned if I claim some small measure of pride in having suggested to the government on an earlier occasion that we should have done something by way of advertising our apple juice and other vegetable products.
While I realize that at this time the establishment of a domestic market is a matter of great importance, yet I suggest that the Minister of Agriculture ought not to lose sight of another one of the facts in connection with the sale of these products. Those who know the fruit and vegetable industry better than I do are convinced-and I say this guardedly-that our importations which have arisen as a result of trade agreements with the republic to the south in 1935 and 1938 have, to say the least, not had a beneficial or advantageous effect upon the fruit and vegetable industry in Canada as a whole.
While through the front door we are trying to find a market for our products, and while we are advertising in order to place our fruit

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and vegetable products before our (people, I would urge upon the minister that he ought not to permit, through the back door, any destruction of advantages so gained by permitting too great importations of fruit and vegetables to enter Canada so as to replace sales of our own apples and other fruits and vegetables.
Only to-day information came to my hand in connection with the competition of oranges from Japan, and that is a further form of competition which must be met by our apple growers. I was amazed to learn that they were faced with that kind of competition. Too few people in Canada realize the tremendous competitive power offered by oranges and other citrus fruits from the United States when in competition with our apple crop. It is all very well to say that they are not of a class or kind produced by our orchard men, but there seems to be no argument against the claim that they do displace apples and other Canadian fruits in our local markets.
I find myself in agreement with the hon. member for Durham when he suggests that in some way or another we should curtail importations of oranges and other citrus fruits from the United States so that we may have a greater opportunity to sell our home-grown products in the domestic market. I do not make the suggestion with any idea of attempting to curtail the benefits which ordinarily accrue to the consumer, but rather my desire is to assist Canada and particularly her fruit and vegetable industry as a whole. I would ask the minister seriously to consider the matter of United States importations of fruits and vegetables. That is a factor which has an important bearing upon many of our problems.


Mr. McGREGOR:: What were the imports of all apples last year?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not that information with me, but I will get it.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: The minister mentioned that fairly large quantities of apples were being distributed. Was he referring to the 1939 or the 1940 crop?


James Garfield Gardiner: The 1939 crop, of which something under $100,000 worth was distributed. It was considerably more in the previous year and much greater still in the year preceding.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Are there still quantities of apples on hand for distribution?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have dried apples, that is dehydrated apples, and canned apples.


Mr. McIYOR:: I suppose the minister would agree that one of the good results that have come to us through the failure of the British market is that we now consume wholesome apple juice.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Applesauce.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Speaking of publicity, I am sure that when it is well known that restaurants and other places serve the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) and myself with apple juice, it will be a great advertisement for it.


Mr. MARSHALL:: The discussion so far has centred round the distribution of surplus agricultural products. The Department of Agriculture in the United States is experimenting with a plan known as the Stamp plan to get rid of their surplus agricultural products, and I should like to read a short extract describing the plan, taken from the Christian Science Monitor, dated January 11, 1940:
Briefly, it's a system by which surplus foods are distributed to relief families free of charge, making use of regular grocery stove channels for distribution. First, reliefers buy one dollar's worth of orange stamps from the Surplus Commodities Corporation. That s good for all food purchases. Then, in addition, they are given, free of charge, 50 cents worth of blue stamps. Now these they use for the purchase of foods in grocery stores which the government has designated "surplus commodities." The grocer, in turn, takes all his stamps to the government or some clearing bank, and gets them redeemed at full face value.
In this way farm surpluses experience a heavy demand at the grocery stores and in turn relief recipients get the extra foods free, instead of their being "plowed under" or exported abroad in some form of dumping arrangement.
The article goes on to discuss the plan and the success it is meeting with in the United States. It says:
The federal Surplus Commodities Corporation chose Rochester for trying out its food stamp plan.
Why?	. .
Well, in the first place relief recipients there were paid by check rather than by food vouchers. Thus a test of the stamps at Rochester would show to what extent families in need would accept them. Then, too, though most Americans think of Rochester as a rich, flourishing city, it nevertheless has its relief problem. One out of five of Rochester's 330,000 people was dependent on relief in May, 1939.
Furthermore, Rochester had made a good record for the competent administration of its relief. So the FSCC'S special staff could follow and check accurately on the results, unhampered by politics or shiftless management. Finally, Rochester, with its diversified industries set in the midst of fertile farmlands, is considered a fairly typical city.
Did Rochester relief recipients take to the stamps ?
They did. During the first three days of the test, 3,900 out of the 8,600 relief clients who

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received checks, had purchased stamps. They spent $29,026 for the orange stamps, and received $14,513 in blue stamps as a present from Uncle Sam.
The chart below shows how the plan's popularity grew:
Relief type
WPA	
City home relief. .. Veterans' relief. . . .
Old age help	
Aid to children. . . . Increase in stamps- Orange stamps. .	..
Blue stamps	
Families participating
May 16-31	July 1-15
703	2,037
3,832	4,319
487	594
269	710
33	297
$45,380	$78,606
22,690	39,303
I would commend this experiment to the minister and suggest that he study it and give us his reactions when item 30 dealing with the marketing of agricultural products is before the committee.


Mr. HAZEN:: Has any arrangement been made with the apple growers of New Brunswick for the present season?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; they were not included in the agreement last year, and no representations so far as I know have been made this year that they desire to be included. I think the reason is that most of their apple crop is marketed locally.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I was just going to ask
the question that the hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen) has asked. While I am not a producer, I have in my constituency the apple growers of the St. John river valley, and I think the minister will agree that until one has eaten a St, John river McIntosh Red he has never tasted a real apple. I was surprised to hear the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn) say that the people of Ontario were deluded to the extent that they thought the best apples were produced in that province. We can set that down, I suppose, to an Ontario complex. The minister has answered the question I intended to ask. There has been no agreement with the government of New Brunswick for the marketing of our apples. We produce about 40,000 barrels in the province, and I understand that the quality is so good that the apples really sell themselves.


Mr. KINLEY:: There seems to be a considerable difference of opinion in the committee as to which part of Canada produces the best apples. The hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn) said Ontario, the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks) said New Brunswick, while someone else spoke up for British Columbia. I am reminded of the fact that the minister said that eighty per cent of the Nova Scotia apples went to the British market. They are sold in competition
with the world, and that is the test. The hon. member for Durham (Mr. Rickard) stated that in order to secure the Montreal market for central Canada growers, it was necessary to zone the sale of apples and thus keep Nova Scotia apples out of that market. I do not think there is any doubt as to where the best apples come from. The moisture, cool air and sunshine of the provinces by the sea give the apples a flavour that one cannot find in any other part of the world. By zoning the sale of apples the department created a condition which was to the disadvantage of the Nova Scotia apple grower. It means that to that extent in Canada we have not free trade within our own country.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I should like to make a brief reference to the statement of the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks) in reference to apples grown in New Brunswick. If I heard him correctly, the hon member stated that New Brunswick produced approximately 40,000 barrels. In order to convince my hon. friend that I speak with some authority in connection with apples, may I say in all modesty that the hon. member beside me and I produce that many apples in our two orchards. I have listened attentively to the statements made by other members from the maritime provinces. I do not think anyone will question the quality of the apples produced in Nova Scotia. However, in a discussion of this matter there are one or two fundamentals that should be kept in mind.
In order that it may be a matter of record, I should like to say that the apple growers from British Columbia to Nova Scotia, including Quebec and Ontario, have a most efficient organization. Each and every province is represented, through the fruit growers' association of the province, upon what is known as the apple advisory board. Last year the gentlemen making up this board made certain advances and suggestions to the Minister of Agriculture. These suggestions were considered in the light of the condition which had resulted from the war and in the practical elimination of the export market for apples from Nova Scotia.
I want to endorse heartily the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Rickard). The Canadian Horticultural Council, under the secretaryship and efficient management of Major Burrows, in cooperation with Doctor Barton and his officials, arrived at an agreement whereby a certain quantity of apples in Nova Scotia were taken over and processed under the auspices of and after having been paid for by the federal government. As a result of that, the apple growers

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of Ontario and Quebec were assured of the domestic market in .those provinces. As a result of those arrangements, and the additional arrangement made with the growers of British Columbia, the 1939 apple crop was handled to the complete satisfaction of the fruit growers in every province. I believe I can speak with authority for the growers of Ontario.
It was my privilege three weeks _ ago to act as a representative to the Ontario Fruit Growers' association which met in the city of Toronto. Since that meeting, three or four other meetings have been held in Ottawa at which there has been representation from Nova Scotia, Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario. Speaking as I believe I do with some authority,
I contend that the arrangements made with the Department of Agriculture for 1939 were most satisfactory. Perhaps I can give a slight word of warning to the Minister of Agriculture. If the apple growers of Ontario and Quebec, working in conjunction with those in British Columbia and Nova Scotia, can arrive at an arrangement which will provide the same results for the 1940 apple crop, then I think all growers in the country will be entirely satisfied.
I should like to make one or two references to the statement made by the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon), for whom I have the greatest admiration. I am very sorry if he misunderstood anything I said last year. Apparently he took my remarks as criticism of his suggested advertising scheme. That scheme was adopted by the government and I believe the suggestions made by the hon. member were most beneficial. I believe that scheme was carried out in a most efficient and successful manner. The product under discussion last year was tomato juice.
The officials of the fruit branch of the Department of Agriculture have carried on extensive work in the production of apple juice, and they should be given credit for the present state of perfection of this product. I want to endorse most emphatically the statements of the hon. member for Durham and the hon. member for Peel. Consideration should be given by the Department of Finance, the Department of National Revenue and the Department of Agriculture to banning the importation of citrus fruits, at least for the [DOT] duration of the war. I have before me a brief which contains a submission made to the *deputy minister of finance in confirmation of a presentation made, I believe, last year. Many details are set out in this brief, and I believe it contains all that is necessary for the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Agriculture to arrive at some conclusion as

to what should be done about a curtailment of the increasing importation of citrus fruits, particularly from the United States.
I have had an opportunity of saying a word about this to the Minister of Agriculture, and perhaps the Department of Finance might also take notice. Each and every hon. member realizes that it is not only a question of the importation of citrus fruits; there is the more essential question of foreign exchange. The Minister of Agriculture, working in conjunction with the other two departments I have mentioned, can render a service, not only to the fruit and vegetable producers of Canada, but also to Canada's war effort by providing some method of curtailing these importations.
I should like to take this opportunity as a rather large fruit grower in Ontario to thank the minister for what he has done. I want him to know that I was satisfied with the arrangements made last 3rear, but I expect him to do as well this year for the fruit growers of Ontario.


Joseph Henry Harris: The hon. member referred to foreign exchange and I should like to ask: Are you in favour of the pegged rate of exchange?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: The hon. member has addressed his question to me, yet he took serious objection the other night to the manner in which I asked a question. In reply I say to my hon. friend that I am afraid I am not sufficiently conversant with high international finance to answer his question.


Mark Cecil Senn: I have listened with a great
deal of attention to the remarks of the hon. member for Northumberland, Ont. (Mr. Fraser). He is one of the men best qualified to speak on the question of apples from the point of view of both marketing and production. I think, however, he was rather served notice by the minister that the very thing that had so much to do with getting a reasonable price for apples in Ontario and Quebec last year for the last crop will perhaps not be followed out this year. I refer to zoning. His idea in making the remarks he did was to give the minister notice that he would like to have that zoning continued for another year, and I am inclined to agree with him in that respect. I heartily agree with him and the hon. member for Durham (Mr. Rickard) in their desire to see the importation of citrus fruits and other fruits of different kinds now imported from the United States curtailed as far as possible. It seems an anomaly that in this country, where we have excellent fruits like apples and other varieties as well, they should be

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replaced by fruits from another country especially when they come in at a high rate of exchange and with very little interruption. I have never been entirely satisfied with the system of seasonal tariffs now in effect, and I am fully in agreement with the hon. member and with the hon. member for Durham in their suggestion to the minister that something should be done to curtail these importations.


Mr. FAIR:: Will the minister tell us
whether the apple growers received from the government a price equal to the cost of production for the portion of the crop sold to it?


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Mr. Chairman-


Thomas Vien: A question has been asked.


James Garfield Gardiner: It was not intended to be answered; it was only a statement.


Robert Fair: May I have an answer to the question?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not think an answer is expected to a question put in that way.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: With reference to the remarks of the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn), we, the apple growers' organizations in Ontario, believe that in the last few years we have made considerable strides in our endeavour to understand the marketing problems and the psychology of purchasing or consuming. The hon. member referred to prices received for the Ontario and Quebec apple crop last year. Those prices were not exorbitant, but they were satisfactory. Not only was it the intention and the policy, but it was ultimately as a result of the policy that was followed that we were enabled to keep in alignment a reasonable price for our crop on the consuming markets of Ontario and Quebec throughout the marketing season of last year. We have found in the apple business as in any other business that if the price for apples increases to the consumer over a certain point for certain varieties and qualities, the consumption immediately begins to decline as a result of the purchase of oranges or some other commodity.
Last year, through an arrangement with the apple advisory board and the apple marketing board, of which Doctor Shaw is the chairman, we agreed, notwithstanding zoning, that the importation of Nova Scotia and British Columbia apples into Ontario and Quebec should be permitted for certain periods in order to maintain the price level at which the consumer could purchase in volume. The
hon. member for Haldimand made reference to zoning and he interpreted my meaning correctly in the remarks I addressed to the minister. That matter is being carefully worked out at the present time through different contacts-the fruit growers association, the apple advisory council, the apple marketing board in conjunction with the Canadian Horticultural Council, Doctor Barton and the officials of the department- and we hope to have a practical plan evolved, perhaps under a different name, which can be accepted by the minister as workable some time during the month of July. Zoning may be an objectionable term in some quarters, and whether under war conditions we should simply use the word control, I do not know; but my hon. friend can rest assured that the industry in Ontario and Quebec and in other provinces, under the auspices of those agencies that I have mentioned, will handle the 1940 crop successfully in cooperation with the minister.


Robert Fair: As the minister did not like the form in which I put the question, I will put it in different words, because I should like to get an answer. How does the price paid by the government for last year's crop compare with the average price paid last year for the same grade of apples?


James Garfield Gardiner: The prices were reasonably comparable all the way through. Most of the apples we took were apples of processing grades. The apples sold by organizations of producers or by those who purchased from the producers were usually a higher grade sold as fresh apples.


Ernest Edward Perley: The discussion to-night has revolved around apples. I do not like to let an opportunity pass of commending the minister; and while he and I come from a part of Saskatchewan where a great percentage of the people in the last three or four years have not been thinking very much about apples-quite a number of them have not been able to buy any apples-the minister last fall did do something, for which he should be commended, in distributing a free gift of apples to that part of the province. His action was certainly appreciated. He distributed in the south central part of the province apples in carload lots, and my constituency was particularly well favoured in that respect. In each of the towns along the main line east of Regina, about two carloads of apples were distributed free. In some towns the apples arrived before the municipality or the town council knew about the matter, but it did not take them long to organize and have the apples distributed, so-
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many pounds to each family. It was a liberal distribution. The apples went to some places where they were not really needed, but on the whole the gift was appreciated. May I ask the minister now what system was adopted in arriving at a decision as to how many apples would be required in each town?
I have only one grievance to utter. I am not going to charge the minister with any ulterior motive, but it so happened that the towns both east and west of me got two carloads while my town got only half a carload. Would the minister let us know how many carloads were distributed under that plan, and how many carloads in the constituencies of Qu'Appelle, Assiniboia and Melville? We have acquired a taste for apples now, and if we ever get in a position to be able to buy them, there will be a good market.


James Garfield Gardiner: About one hundred
thousand boxes were given away, and they were given in areas where the crop averaged from eight bushels to the acre down. More apples would go to a town where more of the townships surrounding it had an average crop of eight bushels or less per acre than to a town where the crop in the area around it was higher. As a matter of fact, I think the hon. member's town is directly south of the town I go to, and I do not think any went to the town I go to.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Apple sauce seems to be the subject at the present time. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) raised a question which caused me considerable grief last fall. I live in what was the original drought area of southwestern Manitoba, and when my people began to learn of the distribution of these apples they certainly had me on the spot as to why I had not some apples in my municipality. I made inquiry through our municipal union and other organizations as to how the distribution was being made and how to go about procuring some of these apples. Would the minister explain what procedure should have been followed and what organization was responsible for the distribution?


James Garfield Gardiner: The organization for the distribution was set up three years ago following the crop failure of 1937. An office was opened with two men in charge and a staff of stenographers and clerks who gathered the information and took charge of the distribution. The distribution was made through the municipal councils. The apples were forwarded to the secretary treasurer, who was instructed beforehand. I gather from what the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) said that in some .instances the secretary

treasurer did not know about the matter before the apples arrived, but in most instances the secretary treasurer knew when they were to come; and if a carload was shipped to a certain area in the province and one municipality was to take out one-quarter or one-half, the secretary treasurers were so instructed. We have in the office, as a result of the distributions previously made, a complete list of the number of families approximately in those municipalities. The distribution is made on the basis of a family of five; I think the first distribution was two boxes to a family, and I am not certain whether last fall's distribution was on the same basis or a little higher. As far as determining the municipalities to which boxes would go, that was based, as I say, on the average crop yield in the area. Apples went only to townships that had on an average less than eight bushels to the acre, based upon the information we had at that time. There might have been an occasional mistake one way or the other, but on the information then available, that was the basis of distribution.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Who was in charge of that distribution office this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: The same man has been in charge all three years, Mr. Mackie. Distribution was from the prairie farm assistance office last year.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What about Doctor Stapleford?


James Garfield Gardiner: Doctor Stapleford has not been assisting during the last two years.


Heber Harold Hatfield: Has anything been done to stop the importation of United States, grade 1, size B potatoes into Canada? I know that under the treaty the importation of grade No. 1 potatoes cannot be stopped, but I believe grade 1, size B was stopped in the past. California started to send these potatoes in early in April when we had a large supply of good old potatoes in Canada, and they have been coming in ever since. We cannot ship grade 1, size B within Canada in interprovincial trade; why should we allow a grade to enter Canada that we cannot sell ourselves within Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have been wandering rather far afield in dealing with this item. Following the direction given by the opposition side of the house, I undertook to give an outline of the general policy in connection with the department, and considerable latitude has since been allowed. So far as the question just asked is concerned, I might point out that it could be more properly dealt with under a later item. I would say at the

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moment that the real reason for the condition existing is the fact that our season for marketing new potatoes starts later than the season of some of our United States friends. They are able to ship into Canada potatoes that are of a certain size and therefore can be marketed much earlier than our potatoes of the same size, and they also have certain areas from which they can obtain what is known as a new potato just as long as we can. For that reason the period over which they come in from the United States is much longer than ours, and they send in more than would otherwise come.
If the committee would pass this item, I should like to ask that we report progress and ask leave to sit again, leaving this question for discussion when we come to the proper item.


Heber Harold Hatfield: According to regulations, grade 1 new potatoes, size B may not be sold in Canada.


James Garfield Gardiner: We can discuss that further when we come to that item.


Major James William Coldwell: I have been waiting for someone, preferably on the other side of the house, to take up, from the point of view of the consumer, the matter of the prohibition of the importation of citrus fruits, or the shortening of the period during which they may be imported free. Suggestions have been made to-night by some supporters of the government with regard to prohibition or shortening of the period of free importation of citrus fruits. Speaking on behalf of the people in the part of Canada from which I come, the prairies, I say that our children there, particularly during the past few years, have not been able to get a sufficient amount of fruit; some of them have not had any fruit at all, and in my opinion the interests of the children particularly should be considered. The citrus fruit which now comes into Canada cannot, we believe, be replaced by apples; and looking across at the government which has always professed a policy of admitting free of duty articles of food, I was waiting for at least one of their supporters to rise and make the suggestion I am now making, that not only should the interests of the apple growers be canvassed but the interests of the consumers should have some consideration. To the consumers in the part of Canada from which I come the present regulation is much more satisfactory than the old one.


Mr. TUCKER:: Is provision made in this year's estimates for a similar distribution of apples in crop failure districts as was done last year?


James Garfield Gardiner: The distribution last year was not done under the estimates; it was done under the War Measures Act. If there is any need for it this year, it would have to be done in that way again.


Thomas Vien: I should like to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that the minister has suggested that this item might pass now or be allowed to stand. I would also draw the attention of the committee to the fact that although a great deal of latitude is allowed on the item covering the administration of the department, yet when there are specific items in the estimates, such as items 28, 29 and 30 in this instance, covering marketing of fruits, vegetables and other products, I believe it is not in order, under standing order 58, subsection 2, to discuss these questions as widely as we have been doing to-night. Since it appeared to be the general consensus of the committee that a general discussion should take place, I have not interfered, but now the question arises whether the committee desires to let this item pass and to continue the discussion under items 28, 29 and 30, which particularly and specifically cover marketing.


Mark Cecil Senn: I have no desire to hold up this item in any way, but the whole question of Canada's preparation for war agricultural production was raised and discussed by the minister himself when this item was called.


James Garfield Gardiner: Raised by the hon.
member for Peel (Mr. Graydon).


Mark Cecil Senn: It might have been raised by some other person, but certainly it was discussed by the minister. I have always understood that under the administration item almost anything taking place within the department could be discussed. However, so far as I am concerned, as long as we have an opportunity-


Thomas Vien: That cannot be under standing order 58, as I read it, which states:
Speeches in committee of the whole house must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under consideration.
While what the hon. member has just said is probably quite correct with respect to a question of policy, I do not believe it applies when there is in the estimates a specific item covering a particular matter under discussion. For instance, we have been discussing fruit, and the marketing of fruit. If we look at page 5 of the estimates we find these items:
28.	Fruit, vegetable and maple products, and honey, including grants of $5,000 to the Canadian Horticultural Council and $500 to the advisory export council.
29.	Live stock and live stock products.

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30.	Marketing of agricultural products, including temporary appointments that may be required to be made, notwithstanding anything contained in the Civil Service Act, the amount available for such appointments not to exceed ,$30,000.
Therefore I suggest that if we want to avoid a tedious repetition of the same arguments, we should adhere to the rule a little more closely, although as I have said, with apparently the unanimous consent of the committee the general discussion to-night was allowed.


Mark Cecil Senn: May I suggest to you, sir,
that I am not trying to uphold or justify the arguments and discussion that have taken place in connection with the marketing of fruits, or anything like that; but I do think, following your own suggestion, that matters of policy can be taken up under an item such as this. We were discussing the policy of the department in regard to the organization of agriculture for war production; but if that can be taken up on some other item, as I have no doubt it can, as far as I am concerned I am willing to meet the wishes of the minister and will offer no further objection to this item passing.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think it would be
quite proper to discuss all matters having to do with science service administration under item 6, and production service administration under item 15. The same thing is true of marketing; so I sugegst that if we carry this item now, we can discuss all these matters later when the proper items are before us.


Robert Fair: Mr. Chairman-


James Garfield Gardiner: If there are going to
be any more questions, I would suggest that this item stand to-night, and we can discuss it later.


Thomas Vien: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.
Item stands.
DEPARTMENT OP PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH Health Branch.
237. Health branch administration, $43,000.


Jean-François Pouliot: Who is the head of the drugs and narcotics branch?
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health):	There is a
special vote covering drugs and narcotics which will come up later on.


Mr. GREEN:: Have there been any particular developments in the health department during the past year?
[The Chairman.]


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: There have been special and additional activities consequent upon the duties and responsibilities cast on the department since the inception of the war. Possibly it would bring the situation home to my hon. friend if I summarized these briefly. In the first place we have placed the pension services of the department at the disposal of the new active service force. Then we have placed hospital services at the disposal of the Department of National Defence, with a continuous average number of patients of about one thousand. Then we have assisted local authorities in four of the provinces in regard to air raid precautions. Our medical inspection and quarantine services have been reorganized to cope with problems which have been aggravated at certain of our Canadian ports. Then our scientific staffs and public health engineering division have been making surveys of camp sites in connection with the new camps which have been required. Health services have been undertaken in various industrial plants throughout Canada. We have placed at the disposal of the Canadian army medical corps the results of an intensive study of health conditions among pensioners, which was carried on, as my hon. friend knows, over the last two or three years by one of the branches of the department. As one result of these investigations the rations of the active service force have been varied and in some respects increased. As a further result of these studies some of the tests on examination of recruits that were used twenty-five years ago have been modified and I think perhaps made more severe. We also have assisted in testing the qualities and properties of the foods included in army supplies.
I think from the health angle that summarises the main activities of the department. We have also, of course, applied the pensions administration to cases that have arisen, and we have assisted in the investigation services of the dependants' allowance board. We have received the commendation of the Department of National Defence for the work carried out by the officials of the department and by the staff of the veterans' allowance board.


Howard Charles Green: I think it would be of interest to the committee if the minister could give us some idea of the results of the examination of recruits. The general opinion is that a great number of potential recruits have been rejected, and if that is so, I suggest that perhaps some action could be taken by the government to remedy the ill health disclosed as a result of those examinations.

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That of course would rest with the Department of National Defence. We have simply placed at the disposal of that department results of certain observations and investigations made respecting some of the pensioners of the great war, so that the results of those investigations might be available and of assistance in connection with the new duties of the Canadian army medical corps in examining troops.


Howard Charles Green: Surely it should be the
function of the department of health to take note of any findings made by the army in connection with the ill health of recruits. There should be many ways in which the health of the Canadian people could be improved. as a result of the findings of the army doctors. Is the health branch not taking any steps to secure that information, or to remedy any defects which have been shown?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Any information obtained as a result of the examination of recruits which may be accumulated and codified by the Department of National Defense will of course be of great value.


Howard Charles Green: It does not do much good to accumulate or to codify unless action is taken; unless the health branch takes some steps in Canada to improve the health of the Canadian people as a whole.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Of course that is the primary function of the whole department, namely, to do what my hon. friend mentions. But surely it is premature to take definite action in connection with examinations which at the moment really rest with another department of government.


Howard Charles Green: The war has been on now for ten months, and thousands of these recruits have been rejected. I suggest to the minister it is high time the department started to do something about the general health situation disclosed by the findings of medical officers examining recruits.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, that
branch cannot do anything about health. According to the detailed information at page 154 of the estimates, there is a director of public health services, receiving a salary of $5,940. Then there are nine clerks, one senior messenger, four stenographers and one typist -making a total of fifteen. Other than the so-called director of public health services, there is not another doctor. There are only clerks, messengers, stenographers and typists, and I do not know what those people could do to improve the health of the soldiers. This
is another instance of red tape. I do not blame the minister for that, because he inherited the legacy from the former heads of the department. That branch is absolutely useless. It is just a branch of red tape. I have been blamed for saying that some civil servants were useless, but I do say now that three-quarters of the Department of Pensions and National Health could be cut out-and with good advantage to the country. I do not see why an unemployed man, or a man who works with pick and shovel and receives only a small amount per day, does not deserve more from the country than do those people who sit with their feet up on their desks doing nothing. Of course I do not blame the minister for that, but he should not have accepted the legacy without first having taken an inventory. '


Gordon Graydon: Would the minister care to give the committee any information respecting new developments in connection with cancer research in the dominion?


Jean-François Pouliot: I object to that, Mr. Chairman. You have been very strict, sir, on this item, and I point out that in connection with it there is nothing about the study of cancer. Certainly a study of cancer is not made by the director of public health, or by the clerks, or by the senior messengers, or by the stenographers, or by the typists, grade one. The hon. member from the flowery constituency in Ontario should wait for another item on which to discuss that matter, because it is certainly not relevant to this one.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I answer briefly by stating that I believe the Ontario government appointed a royal commission to investigate certain alleged cures for cancer. I believe, too, that the Canadian Medical Association have been active in the same direction and in the same connection. At the moment I do not know of any other provincial government directing operations along those lines.


Mr. QUELCH:: Three clinics are being
established in Alberta for the treatment of cancer. Is that not under the direction of the federal government?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: For treatment, are they not?


Gordon Graydon: Have the dominion government made any contribution towards such cancer research, or have they been asked by the government of Ontario to help in that connection?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.

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Ernest George Hansell: Partly as a result of what has been said by the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot), I should like to ask the minister under what item we may discuss cancer. I have looked through the items, and I believe the hon. member is quite correct when he says that they do not touch upon cancer at all.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The hon. member is correct. I believe this is the only item in the estimates upon which he would be quite free to discuss a question as important as cancer.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is all right, but, if my hon. friend would permit me to ask, I wonder who among the fifteen people mentioned as working in that branch makes a study of cancer. Sir, the minister may say someone does, but I insist that you be strict in the interpretation of the rules. I insist upon speaking only on the proper item, and if there is no item which deals with cancer, then I do not know how it can be relevant, on this item, to speak concerning cancer.


Thomas Vien: As I said a moment ago, when we come to an item respecting administration it is generally understood that the policy of a department may be discussed, unless such policy is particularly directed to a specific item provided otherwise in the estimates. In this instance we find at page 29 of the estimates item 237, dealing with health branch administration. There is no specific item covering the study or the prevention of cancer, and therefore I believe it is in order for any hon. member to ask questions of the minister respecting the prevention or cure of cancer.


Ernest George Hansell: I am not going to make a speech, but rise merely to ask one or two questions. I believe the government of Alberta has appropriated about $50,000 in the present year for the initial treatment of cancer, and in that connection they have established three clinics throughout the province.


An hon. MEMBER:: Provincial.


Ernest George Hansell: I know. The health of the country is in the hands of the provinces, and in that respect it is in the same category as education, as was stated the other day. I would not be certain, but I am reasonably sure that the Alberta government did appropriate something for cancer research. I agree with the hon. member for Temiscouata when he states that we have a health branch, and yet I would point out that the provincial governments have health branches.


Jean-François Pouliot: They have radium, too.
(Mr. Ian Mackenzie.]


Ernest George Hansell: Is any grant given to the provinces for the administration of health? I have particularly in mind the disease of cancer, but I would ask the general question as to whether any grants are given by the federal government to the provinces.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I believe there is an amount of $50,000 for venereal diseases, but other than that there is none.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I am not quite satisfied with the information given to the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) as to the health of the men applying for military service. While it is true that with a staff of fifteen one cannot expect to have a great deal of information compiled, the committee is appropriating $43,000, and I think by thi8 time we should have a little more definite information regarding the health condition of the young men who have volunteered for military service in Canada since the war started.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The department will endeavour to obtain that information, but it must be obtained from the department that is collecting it at the present time.


Jean-François Pouliot: I would suggest that the $150,000 in the estimates for the League of Nations should be used to buy radium for cancer.


Howard Charles Green: When may we get the information as to the findings of the medical officers who have examined recruits? This is of vital importance. I do not think there is any doubt that thousands and thousands of young Canadians have been rejected on medical grounds, and I think the committee should have a summary of the reasons for which they have been rejected in order that action may be taken to remedy the causes of these defects.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I must consult the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) upon that question.


Howard Charles Green: Can we get the information the next time the estimates of this department are before the committee of supply?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It would have to come from the other department.


Howard Charles Green: Shall we be able to get the information from the Minister of National Defence?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to tell my colleague right away.

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Mr. HOWDEN:: With regard to the information asked for by the hon. member for Vancouver South, I may say that to the best of my knowledge-and I am supposed to be a doctor-recent events have not disclosed any particular new form of illness to be brought to the attention of the science of medicine through the examination of recruits. Such examinations undoubtedly have disclosed incipient cases and old cases of venereal disease, tuberculosis and what-not, and such examinations as have been made of the recruits could not be expected to disclose any other forms of disease than those I have mentioned. No doubt constitutional diseases such as disease of the kidneys, the heart, and what-not have been found, but the science of medicine has known all these forms of disease for many long years, so I cannot see how the results of these examinations would be of any material benefit to the science of medicine as suggested by my hon. friend.


Howard Charles Green: I am worrying not about the science of medicine but about the health of the Canadian people.


John Power Howden: The two are the same
thing.


Howard Charles Green: Not necessarily.


Mr. MacINNIS:: I think this information would be of great value to the community because, after all, 'there must be causes for these diseases, and in order to find the causes we must know the facts. If people have been suffering from malnutrition, this committee should know it, but I rose particularly to ask about the nutritional survey which the department has been making, I understand, during the last few years. Is there a likelihood of a report on that survey being made in the near future?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Reports will be published on these surveys, but I understand they are not completed yet.


Angus MacInnis: They will be shortly?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Mr. MacDIARMID:: Speaking as a newcomer, I think many rejections were caused by defective eyesight, defective hearing and deformities, and these I understand are not a matter for the federal health department. These defects have caused a great many rejections here.


Jean-François Pouliot: Who is the director of public health services, and why is he getting an increase of $720 in these troublous times?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The officer is Doctor J. J. Heagerty, and the
actual increase is $240. I might explain that when the 1939-40 estimates were compiled, namely in November, 1938, this position, classified by the civil service commission, was described as "Chief Executive, Medical and General Assistant", and had as the maximum salary $5,220, which amount the incumbent of the position was then receiving.
The position was reclassified by the civil service commission and the title changed to "Director of Public Health Services", with a salary range of $4,800 to $5,100, to $5,400, to $5,700, to $5,940. The order in council, P.C. 46/751, was dated March 29, 1939, which date it will be noted was subsequent to the printing and tabling of the 1939-40 estimates. Under the terms of the order in council the reclassification was effective retroactively to April 1, 1938.
Since, as stated, the incumbent was at the time receiving $5,220, he was immediately entitled to an increase to $5,400, and on April 1, 1939, to a further increase to $5,700. From April 1, 1940, a year later, he is eligible for an increase to $5,940, which is the amount provided for in the estimates. The increase in salary to be paid to this employee during 1940-41, over that paid in 1939-40, is $240, and not $720, as the estimates would indicate.


Mr. LOCKHART:: When the minister is obtaining the information asked for by my colleague the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), would he be good enough also to bring down information as to the health of the troops generally. I am informed that a number of men have been returned from overseas as medically unfit. I fail to find in the estimates of the Department of National Defence any item on which we could ask questions about the health of the troops, so I think we might reasonably be allowed to pursue our inquiries now or be definitely assured that we shall be given an opportunity on some other item.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My recollection is that there is a vote in the national defence estimates for medical services, and I think that would be the proper item. If I had the information, I would gladly give it. It comes under another department, but I shall consult my colleague immediately in regard to it.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: May I ask the minister, then, to follow up my question with respect to the health of the men who have been returned from overseas after being there for some time?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.
59S
^	COMMONS
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Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I understand that the departments of health in the various provinces look after tuberculosis, cancer and other diseases. I am not clear as to the exact duties of this department, and I should like the minister to state the functions which this department performs and why we are being asked to vote -$43,000 at this time.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If my hon. friend would be good enough to study the evolution of public health policy in the Dominion of Canada, he would find that before confederation there was a certain degree of attention paid to public health in the four provinces then existing. The dominion had regulations in regard to public health as far back as 1667, with respect to the quality of bread and foodstuffs. In 1707 regulations were instituted for the inspection of meat, and in 1721 regulations in regard to quarantine. At confederation we had a system of public health established in all the provinces, and the respective jurisdictions of the provinces and the federal authorities were defined in the British North America Act.
' Since then, the provincial governments have been responsible for hospitals, asylums and charitable institutions. The federal government was given charge mainly over quarantine and marine hospitals. Prior to 1919, when the health act was enacted, various additions were made from time to time to the public health functions of the dominion government. But it was not until that time that we had anything like a coordinated health policy in the Dominion of Canada. Under the 1919 act the services that were created or transferred to the national department of health were as follows:
Quarantine services, including leper stations. Immigration medical services.
Administration of the Food and Drugs Act. Administration of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act.
Administration of the Proprietary or Patent Medicine Act.
Ma rine hospital services.
Venereal disease control.
Child welfare.
Statistics.
Housing.
Medical examination of civil servants.
By amendments to the present act, other functions and responsibilities have been added to the national health department, such as the laboratory of hygiene, public health engineering, the child and maternal hygiene division, the division for the study and control of epidemics, the division of industrial hygiene and the division of publicity and health education. In 1928, as my hon. friend is aware, there was an amalgamation of the old soldiers' 
civil reestablishment department and the old health department to form the present Department of Pensions and National Health.
The federal activities, about which my hon. friend inquires, are and have always been primarily concerned with the protection from infection and disease from abroad. As I said, this department deals with questions of quarantine, inspection of immigrants, impure foods, the control of habit-forming drugs and patent medicines, and in some cases importations of fruits, vegetables and live stock which are inspected to safeguard the consumer. The department has also instituted laboratories for carrying on research work and conducting necessary tests. I think this explains the varying jurisdiction as between the provinces and the federal authority with reference to health matters.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have followed the remarks of the minister quite closely, but I find in the estimates that there are generous amounts provided for the different services to which he has referred. I notice an item for food and drugs, another for opium and narcotic drugs, another for proprietary or patent medicines, and so on. I still have not been advised as to the exact functions which would be carried on under this item covering health branch administration.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The divisions to which my hon. friend has referred all have separate heads, but for the purposes of administration, and as requested by the Department of Finance, they all come under the health branch.


Jean-François Pouliot: Then I am quite in order in discussing opium and narcotic drugs under this item because the chief of this branch is the super-chief of all these little branches.
I can now see the relationship which exists.
I did not know that before. I saw that this chief of branch was receiving a few hundred dollars more in salary than the dominion analyst, but I did not know his function in *the department. Would I be in order to ask questions about other branches?


Thomas Vien: As I have mentioned a couple of times already, it is permissible to discuss questions of general administration under this general item of health branch administration, but there are other specific items. For instance, item 239 deals with opium and narcotic drugs. When we reach that item, these questions could be more properly dealt with.


Mr. COCKERAM:: After the declaration of war there was some reference to the

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Department of Pensions and National Health taking over the Royal Canadian army medical corps. Has that question been dropped?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No such question was raised.


Howard Charles Green: In his opening statement
the minister said that the department had been conducting health surveys of industrial plants. Could we have further details of those surveys?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That W'ould come under the item dealing with industrial hygiene.


Howard Charles Green: I understood the minister to say that his department was in charge of air raid precaution work in Canada. Could we have further information on that score?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to give my hon. friend further information later on. Generally speaking, I may say that two years before war broke out, an interdepartmental committee was set up which dealt with the various committees and organizations which had been formed. One of these committees was under the chairmanship of the deputy minister of national health, and it had to do with questions of air raid precautions. This is being handled here the same as in England, where the matter is not under the defence department.
Certain recommendations were made by that committee, and certain officers of the department were sent to interview the governments of the four provinces most vitally concerned. In the first place, the vulnerable areas were defined by the officers of the Department of National Defence. The matter was referred by that department to the Department of Pensions and National Health. The governments of the provinces in which these potential vulnerable areas were located were asked for cooperation, which was given. Supplies were forwarded from the Department of Pensions and National Health. I believe there is a provincial air raid precaution officer in each of these four provinces. If my memory serves me correctly, last year a grant of $5,000 was made to each of the four provinces for the purpose of carrying on air raid precaution work. This work is entirely under provincial control, except that expert advice is available from this department to the municipalities or provinces directly concerned.


Howard Charles Green: Is there coordination between the men in charge in the four provinces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. The officer in charge here has made several visits to each of the provinces to consult with the provincial officer.


Howard Charles Green: Would it not be better to
have one man in charge of operations for the whole of Canada so that the precautions could be standardized.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They are standardized. Objection was taken to that by the first committee-not the departmental committee-on the ground that this should be a civilian project. I believe in some instances it is called a civilian defence committee instead of an air raid precaution committee. The supplies sent out are identical, and pamphlets which were obtained from England have been distributed. The information given to all provinces is uniform and, generally speaking, the measures taken are uniform.


Howard Charles Green: Which are the four provinces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and British Columbia.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Is the department following the plan which was adopted in Great Britain where meetings were held in city halls or other public buildings?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: These are public meetings, and the officials of the department explain what should be done in the event of air raids. I attended a number of those meetings on my last trip to the old country and I found them quite educating. I did not realize that the public could be instructed to protect themselves against air raids to the extent that was outlined at those meetings. Are similar meetings being held in the provinces to which the minister has referred?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Speaking for my own province, I attended one of the meetings and heard the demonstration given. They have gone beyond that stage in most provinces.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And all sorts of literature is being given out?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: And supplies.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The information
in connection with the rejection of recruits is being collected, I understand, by the Department of National Defence. I have been informed that a great many rejections, certainly in the earlier stages, were the result of malnutrition. It seems to me that this information should be available as soon as possible for the use of the various provincial

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departments. From what I could gather, a good many men were rejected because of malnutrition, although of course there were other reasons as well. Would it not be advisable to have that information put into the hands of the various provincial departments without delay? The Health League of Canada have been putting on what is known as a nutrition movement. The minister knows about it and it is an excellent idea. I urge that the information be given to the provincial departments as soon as possible so that they may begin to study the matter. Within a year, if that were done, the evil might be remedied. Certainly the information should not be allowed to accumulate in one place instead of being disseminated.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Although the information is not available here at the moment, there is complete cooperation between the Department of National Defence, the Department of Pensions and National Health, and the various provincial departments.


Thomas Miller Bell: The question that has been put to the minister, and the series of questions initiated by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), are as important as any question which we shall have to consider in connection with this matter, because, after all, our greatest natural resource now and in the future consists of our men and women. The information asked for should be brought down. I happen to have with me the Canadian Welfare magazine for April and May issued by the Canadian Welfare Council at Ottawa, and I should like to read an extract that throws light on this question. I am going to quote from an article by Miss Charlotte Whitton. It is the report of an address which she gave before the Rotary club of Toronto.


Jean-François Pouliot: She is more a propagandist than a technician.


Thomas Miller Bell: Nevertheless she occupies a position which enables her to speak with some knowledge of conditions, and at any rate the data she gives is worth considering.
I quote:
Many of these youths, many of these nonestablished men, frustrated and aimless, had become bitter with the years; many of them broken with their experience of idleness and need, but they have come forward in thousands to offer themselves for active defence of this country, and of the principles and ways of life, it cherishes. Yet, in different areas, different varying ratios of rejections are reported.
Public relief departments report large groups of their clients, obviously ineligible because of age or condition, and heavy rejections of others, less obviously unfit; and of still others, because they have more than two children. The volun-

tary agencies, whose clientele are composed more largely of low incqme than of wholly dependent groups, report similar conditions, but with considerable enlistments from boys in their families, and of heads of families in the younger age groups.
This is the sentence to which I would call attention.
But one of the largest of the voluntary agencies in the dominion reports only 245 men out of 1,505 likely to be at all eligible for active service; another reports that in a test group of 140 families, only 52 could have been considered eligible for enlistment-of these, 13 enlisted; 4 only were conscientious objectors; 35 others were employed and fearful of the uncertainty of ever getting work again, if they gave up; 88 were quite ineligible.
Many of these groups are reported unfit for heavy pressure in speeded-up industrial or agricultural production. The inadequate functionings of democracy have rendered many of its would-be defenders partially incapable of its defence without vigorous measures for their care and conditioning.
These examples of the slow undermining of the ways and vigour of our life, through the growth of insecurity and need in the margin land show what a long extended battle line must be held on the home front.
I recollect reading last autumn a letter written by the mayor of this very city to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) pointing out the large number of rejections in the month of September and suggesting that there might be opened in Canada here and there reconditioning depots where these young men might be fed and cared for and their health looked after in order to bring them up to the standard required for enlistment. It struck me as a most serious indictment of the economic and social system, that we should allow these young men to deteriorate, to fall into decay in times of peace when we have no use for them, and then all of a sudden wish to recondition them to defend our institutions. It was a tremendous indictment. I suggest that the department now before us and the various departments concerned should place before the house at the earliest possible moment figures that will enable us to find out exactly what the condition is so that we may face the facts. In my opinion the large number of rejections is due not to any functional defect at birth but largely to the kind of life which many of these young lads have had to live during the past few years. They have suffered from malnutrition-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Not enough to eat.


Major James William Coldwell: Not enough to eat. I am urging that we get that information. True, we are not responsible for the provincial health departments; but, after all, we are responsible for the defence of this country. We are responsible for the social and economic

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conditions of the country to a greater degree than any province, and because the provinces cannot deal with the situation we must do so. I believe that we shall have to change many things in our present social and economic order to bring about this better condition of physical health among the great masses of our people.


Jean-François Pouliot: The United States of
America offer us in this connection an example that should be followed by this country. They have a programme to furnish hot luncheons to five million undernourished children in the schools. In the city of New York alone last year over 23,000,000 hot lunches were served, an average of about 120,000 a day. They understand there that it is important that children at school shall be well fed. My old friend Doctor Maloney of Australia sent me a copy of a speech that he made in Canberra advocating the distribution of free milk to school children, something that might well be done in this country, not only to help nourish the children but also to take care of the surplus production of milk. We may be told that this is not the business of this government; on the other hand often there are items in the estimates for grants that are not provided for in the British North America Act, but they are made just the same. I wonder if this government could not grant a special subsidy for that purpose to each province according to the school children population. It would be easy to vote a certain sum of money to be distributed to each province on the understanding that milk is supplied to children in schools, particularly in the poor districts, frontier settlements, mining districts and all the poorer communities.
Now sir, this being said, I could ask a minimum of ten thousand questions of the minister on this item, but I shall ask only two. Who writes the advertising and publicity for an amount of $10,000? Is it all done by the director of public health services, or by any of the nine clerks, the senior messenger, the four stenographers or the typist?
My second question is, who is being transported by the travelling expenses of $2,500? Is it the director of public health services, or one of the typists, messengers and clerks? And now I think of another question: If the director of public health services travels to the extent of $2,500, who takes charge of the clerks, senior messenger, stenographers and typist while he is away, and who does the health work of the department, because he is the only technician in that branch, the only doctor? Does he do it by wireless?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
In regard to publicity, the director of publicity does write the publications referred to by the hon. member.


Jean-François Pouliot: Who is he?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
Mr. Rowse.


Jean-François Pouliot: Is he a doctor?
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
No.


Jean-François Pouliot: Ah!
Mr.	MACKENZIE	(Vancouver	Centre):
In regard to travelling expenses, if my hon. friend will look at section 11 of the Pensions and National Health Act there is reference there to the Dominion Council of Health. That item is for the convening in Ottawa- the custom has been twice a year-of the Dominion Council of Health, which consists of the deputy ministers or senior health officers of the various provinces of Canada to consult and confer with the health officers of the department in order to have as far as possible a coordinated health policy for the Dominion of Canada.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister, and this last item is the only one that deserves our support and commendation in this whole vote of $43,000. They have a man who is not a doctor writing on health; you might just as well ask a bootblack to describe the moon. I have been savagely attacked by some Ottawa papers for my stand on the civil service. I admit there are good men in the service; but here we see red tape, and that I strongly denounce. And if any hon. member or any man of the Tory party, including the hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Homuth) dares to attack me on this matter, I will take every item of the estimates and show the red tape that exists. It will be perfectly relevant to each item.
Let me tell hon. members more than that. I have a chart for each department, and I know how many people are there, doing absolutely nothing, when we cannot get a vote for our constituencies. I do not see why these people can fatten themselves at the expense of the state. Yet we hear some kindly souls saying, "Well, the poor civil servants, they are doing their duty." They are doing nothing! There is Mr. Heagerty; he says, "Hello, hello." I wonder if he gives medical care to his staff; he has enough for that. Apart from that, I do not see his utility. Imagine the publicity that he puts out being written by a layman! What do the doctors in this house think of that? What can be the use of that? Just to light the fire with; that is all. I hope

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the minister will give consideration to that. I am strongly against all the Tories in the Department of Pensions and National Health; they have been a public nuisance; they are kept there because-"oh, well, they are Tories; we must not be hard on them; we must not show political partisanship." It is not partisanship, but we must have a policy of retrenchment; let us retrench them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: One observation I think should be made in regard to the remarks of the hon. member. First, I have not been in the department very long-


Jean-François Pouliot: I	do not blame the
minister.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not entitled to either blame or commendation, but I have had the privilege of reading "Health in Canada" written by Doctor Heagerty, and in my judgment as a layman, he is one of the finest writers on public health anywhere. In regard to Mr. Rowse, his publication has received great commendation from the press of Canada-and there is no credit to me concerning it; it was organized before I went there. I believe he has done excellent work under the supervision of one of the ablest health officers in Canada.


Jean-François Pouliot: The minister says he does not care for blame or praise. He might regret that; for if he does not care for praise, he might get blame.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: In the air raid precaution work has the department the cooperation of the St. John Ambulance Association?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Very definitely; they have done excellent work in cooperation with the department along these lines.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: That is very valuable. The hour is late; I shall speak only a moment; I should like to commend very much the statement made to-night by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell). There is no question about the fact that a great many young people who have no work to do suffer from ill health; and if they are on relief they may suffer from undernourishment. Perhaps it is not the business of the department of health, but I suggest that possibly a report from this department to the proper authorities might assist in the establishment of camps or some places where these young men could be kept at work and regain their physical fitness, not only improving their physical health but their moral health a3 well.


Mr. McCANN:: 
John Ritchie MacNicol: Do you mean in addition to the vote?


James Joseph McCann: I have not noticed just
yet.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: That was S50,000 for arsenicals, was it not?


James Joseph McCann: For treatment.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: For all the provinces.


James Joseph McCann: It is all for the same disease, anyway. We could well afford to have that particular appropriation increased. I would say, too, that voluntary agencies in Canada doing public health work should get increased rather than decreased grants.
For instance, let us consider the Health League of Canada. I see in the appropriation this year that there is a cut from $10,000 to $5,000. I can hardly see the justification for that, but perhaps I am not sufficiently well informed at the moment to pass judgment upon it. I do know, however, that the Health League of Canada is carrying on a campaign of publicity and education that is worth to Canada many times the appropriation made by the federal government. At present they are putting on a campaign in Toronto, and are depending upon the voluntary subscriptions of public-spirited people in that city in order that their work of education may be carried on. The results they have obtained

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over the years stand out as a beacon light in the public health services of Canada. What they have done in connection with venereal diseases, what they have done in educating the people with respect to the administration of toxoid for diphtheria cannot be measured in dollars and cents. When you have public-spirited men of the type of Doctor Bates and other prominent men in Toronto who wish to continue the great work they are doing, then I say they should have an increased appropriation from this government and should receive continued-


Jean-François Pouliot: Support.


James Joseph McCann: support from the people of the whole country.
Another matter brought up to-night had to do with whether this government has been doing anything in connection with the investigation of cancer. Of itself, I do not think that it is; but probably hon. members will not forget that the King George cancer fund is still in operation, and that money from that fund is given to the Banting Institute in Ontario, and to clinics from one end of the country to the other, so that research may be carried on and treatment continued in clinics in different cities. I do not remember at the moment just how that fund originated, but I believe it was a jubilee fund, and has grown from public subscription.
Let us for a moment consider the publicity branch of the federal health department. That branch is not costing very much money, but it is doing an enormous amount of work. I doubt very much if persons outside the members of the medical profession and men particularly interested in public health work in Canada ever read the articles or information given out by the publicity branch of the federal health department. So I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that as a medical man and one who has been interested in public health for a quarter of a century, I am satisfied with the progress of the federal health branch, and I wish them continued success, and that they may have an ever-broadening sphere of influence.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, my good friend the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann) should be thankful to the hon. member for Temiscouata for having accorded him an opportunity to make such a nice little speech. I fully agree with what he has said about Doctor Bates, but Doctor Bates does not receive a cent from this vote, with the exception of what he receives for

travelling expenses. On the other hand, as a layman-and my hon. friend speaks as a medical man-I would ask him if the school children, the parents of the school children and the farmers around Renfrew will not agree with the suggestion previously made by the hon. member for Temiscouata respecting the free distribution of milk in schools. If they agree with that suggestion made by a layman, I ask the hon. member for Renfrew South why as a medical man he has not made that suggestion before.


James Joseph McCann: In answer to the hon.
member for Temiscouata let me say that I agree one hundred per cent with the suggestion he has made, but I would point out to him that this is a matter which rests entirely with the provincial department of health and the health branches in the various municipalities. So far as Renfrew is concerned, I would tell the hon. member that throughout the county of Renfrew and in the town of Renfrew we have as fine a health service as exists anywhere in the whole of this dominion. The children there are under the supervision of a public health nurse, and those children, along with the hon. member for Temiscouata, any time at eleven o'clock in the morning can get a pint of milk, free, from the municipality of Renfrew.


Howard Charles Green: Following up the remarks of the hon. member for Parkdale (Mr. Bruce), may I strongly urge upon the government that steps be taken at once to set up works battalions in Canada in which those young men who have tried to enlist for overseas service but who have been rejected may enlist to do work at home.
There are many kinds of work which can be done in connection with the preparation of the defence forces of this country, and that work could be done by battalions of this type. The present situation is that many of these young men are unfit because in depression years they had to ride back and forth across the country on freight trains. They have gone to the recruiting offices, have been turned down and have received blue slips. In fact, I understand they are now known as the blue-slip brigade. I think nothing would do more to build up the bodies of those young men, nothing would do more to improve their morale than to give them an opportunity to enlist in works battalions or in some such units which could do work of the kind I have mentioned. I am asking the minister to let us know to-night what he thinks about a pronosal for a scheme of that type.

Standing Committees,


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have carefully noted the remarks just made by my hon. friend.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Friday, June 7, 1940