1940-05-23

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Will any steps be taken at once by the government to secure a national register or modern doomsday book or survey of all the people of Canada for war and after the war purposes, and for defence, economic, industrial and other labour purposes?
2.	If so, what are they?
3.	Will such a proposed register include: (a) man power; (b) industrial power; (c) food power; (d) military and defence power; (e) unemployed; (f) transients?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: This question, like all others that require a statement of government policy, will be answered as the policies of the government are announced. It is not customary to announce government policy in answer to specific questions on the order paper.


CANADIAN ACTIVE SERVICE FORCE-MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	How many men of the first division were reexamined before going overseas?
2.	Were X-ray examinations made on enlistment?
3.	How many men developed chest conditions between enlistment and going overseas?
4.	Were all men examined by X-ray before going overseas?
[Mr. MacNicol.l
5.	Have all precautions been taken, and records kept so that proper identification may be made later when the question of pensions is being considered?
6.	If so, what are they?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	AH of first division were re-examined before going overseas.
2.	All men not X-rayed (chest only) on enlistment have since been X-rayed (chest only).
3.	During the period between date of mobilization (September 1, 1939) and 31st December, 1939, there were, among all the troops in Canada, 1,339 cases of chest conditions admitted to hospital, including bronchial pneumonia, pleurisy, asthma, emphysema, tuberculosis of the respiratory system.
4.	Yes (chest only).
5.	Yes.
6.	A radiologists's written report and film for all cases. These reports and films are numbered with the man's number, name, unit and a serial number, and are filed at the record office in Ottawa.


ALBANY RIVER WATER DIVERSION
Mr. MacNICOL:: 1.	Was any representative of the government of Canada or the province of Ontario requested or authorized to introduce or discuss the diversion of the water of the Albany river watershed at the recent negotiations in Ottawa or Washington in connection with the proposed St. Lawrence river navigation and power project?
2.	Was any Canadian representative, at the negotiations referred to above, directed to protest against the present diversion or the increasing of the present diversion of lake Michigan water at Chicago?
3.	Was any Canadian representative, at the above referred to negotiations, directed to discuss the relation of lake Michigan to the proposed St. Lawrence navigation and power project?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The question of the utilization of waters diverted into the great lakes and St. Lawrence system from the Albany river watershed has been under discussion between the government of Canada and the government of Ontario for many years. Articles were included in the St. Lawrence treaty signed in 1932 and also in the draft Great Lakes-St. Lawrence treaty put forward by the United States government in 1938, providing for the utilization by Canada for power purposes of all water so diverted into the great lakes system. The question has continued under discussion in subsequent negotiations.
2.	The Canadian authorities have made representations on all appropriate occasions

Questions
against the excessive diversion of water from the great lakes through the Chicago sanitary canal. The United States federal government and various lake states have also pressed for its restriction. In the past ten years the diversion has been reduced by more than 5,000 cubic second feet as a result.
3.	The question of control of the diversion through the Chicago sanitary canal was dealt with in the St. Lawrence treaty of 1932 and has continued to receive attention in all subsequent negotiations.


CANADIAN ACTIVE SERVICE FORCE-ENLISTMENTS, DISPOSITION AND MOBILIZATION
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many men have enlisted in Canada by provinces: (a) for overseas; (b) for home defence ?
2.	How many men by contingents or divisions
went overseas:	(a) in the war of 1914-18;
(b) and have gone to date overseas in this war?
3.	How many divisions in this war have so far been mobilized, ami where, and are any otliers contemplated ?


Mr. ROGERS:: 
SOLDIERS' CLOTHING IN STORAGE
Mr. MacNICOL:: 1.	What number of soldiers' uniforms were in storage in the Toronto government stores and depots in August of each of the following years: 1936, 1937, 1938, and 1939?
2.	What number of soldiers' greatcoats were m storage at above referred to stores and depots in said years?
3.	What number of each of the above referred to uniforms and greatcoats were unserviceable in September, 1939. through having been (a) destroyed by moths or (b) other causes?
4.	How many pairs of soldiers' boots -were in serviceable condition in the above referred to stores and depots in August, 1939?


Norman McLeod Rogers: 1936	1937	1938	19391.	Breeches	
1,444	1,336	876	852Caps	
3.389	4,678	2,590	3,861Jackets	
9.629	9,349	8,153	7,876Trousers	
2,912	2,513	1,911	2.864Puttees	
2,210	1,341	2,214	3712.	1936-9,8391937-	9,8421938-	9,0281939-	S,5503.	(a) Number destroyed by moths-negligible, (b) Average quantities condemned annually as unserviceable through fair wear
and tear.
Breeches	 270
Caps ..			750
Jackets	 1,250
Trousers	 800
Puttees	 1,000
Greatcoats	 660
4. 2.S90 pairs.
dependents' allowance board


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Who are the members of the soldiers' dependency board, when were they appointed, what are their respective salaries and duties, and what financial or other qualifications had they for such a position?
2.	What instructions have been issued to them, and will a copy of same be tabled?
3.	(a) How many claims have been passed, and (b) how many are pending settlement?
4.	Will the government consider a system for more prompt payment through the chartered banks, the Bank of Canada or other agency?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	The duties of the members of the dependents' allowance board are set out in financial regulations and instructions for (the Canadian active service force. These regulations have been laid on the table of the House and have also been promulgated in the Canada Gazette.	>
Questions

Members:
Colonel S. H. Hill-Appointed September 5th, 1939-In business in Quebec prior to 1912. On January 1st, 1912, appointed officer in the permanent active militia; served in France and was wounded there and on return to Canada served as general staff officer at various places. In 1920 was appointed director of physical training and cadet services. In 1933 transferred to London, Ontario, and served for six years as assistant adjutant and quarter master general. Retired on pension April 10th, 1939. Recalled for duty with the dependents' allowance board on September 5th, 1939.
Salary-Difference between permanent force pension and regimental pay of rank-SI ,851.50 p.a.
Lieutenant-Colonel Joseph G. Raymond-Appointed September 20th, 1939-Four years .active service 1914-18 War. In Canada and France company commander and adjutant. Experience in civil life-In bond and insurance business and office management with A. E. Ames & Co., and in business for himself.
Salary-Pay of rank-$4,990.50 p.a.
Mr. Arthur H. Brown-Appointed September 5th, 1939-A lawyer by profession. Holds position of secretary of Canadian Farm Loan Board. Has a wide knowledge of general conditions in Canada.
Salary-Paid by farm loan board. Receives no extra pay.
Flying Officer Walter A. Kenzie-Appointed January 17th, 1940-Lawyer by profession, gave up practice to join the forces. Has had considerable experience in handling cases of a social nature.
Salary-Pay of rank-S3,456.
Lieutenant-Commander Archibald E. For-tington, R.C.N.-Appointed March 14th, 1940- Pay Officer in the navy in the Great M ar. 21 years of service in the dominion civil service, trade and commerce division.
Salary-Pay of rank-$3,686.50.
Chairman, A. MacNamara-Appointed January 17th, 1940-Three years of sendee in Imperial Air Force and Royal Air Force, 191418 War. Twenty-five years with provincial government of Manitoba in administrative positions in Department of Public Works and Labour. Holds position as Deputy Minister of Public Works and Labour of that province and is on loan to the national defence department.
Salary-Receives same salary as paid by the province of Manitoba ($6,000 p.a.), plus a living allowance of $10 a day.

2.	Answered by 1.
3.	(a) An April 30th, 1940, 66,762 applications for payments on behalf of men in the service were in payment and of this number 16,627 were for insurance premiums only. The balance, 50,135, was the number of payments being made to dependents.
(b) As to the number of applications pending, these applications are received as men are recruited and the number varies from day to day. On April 30th, 1940, there were 802 applications under investigation all of which were of recent date.
4.	There is no delay in the dispatch of cheques to dependents. Cheques are mailed so that they reach dependents on the first of each month and are cashed by any bank and many other agencies.
farmers' creditors arrangement act-


SASKATCHEWAN APPLICATIONS
Mr. FLEMING:: How many applications were made in the judicial districts of Humboldt and Wynyard, in the province of Saskatchewan, for the year 1939-40, under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act?


Mr. RALSTON:: Eighty-seven farmers submitted applications in the judicial district of Humboldt and 132 farmers submitted applications in the judicial district of Wynyard.


NICKEL EXPORTS
Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	How many tons of nickel were exported from Canada in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1940?
2.	To what countries, and in what amounts to each country was the above nickel exported during each month of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1940?
3.	What amounts of nickel and nickel matte were exported each month to the Falconbridge Nikkelark Aktieselskap of Kristiansand, Norway, during the fiscal year ending March 31, 1940?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1. The total exports of nickel and its products for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1940, were 2,345,608 cwts. or 117,280-4 tons (of 2,000 pounds).
Exports per month were as follows: April, 187,541 cwts.; May, 227,643 cwts.; June, 159,800 cwts.; July, 172,757 cwts.; August, 149,921 cwts.; September, 263,298 cwts.; October, 228,509 cwts.; November, 204,079 cwts.; December,


169,990 cwts.; January, 205,805 cwts.; February, 171,667 cwts.; March, 204,598 cwts. Total, 2,345,608 cwts.
2.	The figures below are of exports to principal countries for each month of the period
(In cwts.)	April
United Kingdom	 73,790
United States	 84,271
Norway	 9,217
Japan	 20,142
Australia	 17
Brazil	 67
Chile	 5
Colombia	
F ranee	
Mexico	 22
Questions as Orders jor Returns
April-Septembcr, 1939. Since then separate totals for shipments to individual countries of consignment are not being made public, in accordance with the practice followed by all the allied countries.
May	June	July	Aug.	Sept.106,580	52.296	74.671	46.606	56,59973,119	69.629	60,207	80.203	141,82119,181	13.638	IS,527	14,224	20.43227,393	23,834	19.209	6.507	40,59828	50	850	165	491	45	48	57	68411	5	17182	2,245 12	2,2403.	In the period for which a breakdown of export figures is available, i.e., April-Septem-ber, 1939, the only nickel exported to Norway was in the form of nickel matte for refining. The figures given for Norway in reply to question 2 above are therefore entirely for exports of nickel matte. It is understood that these exports were destined to the Falcon-bridge Nikkelverk Refinery of Kristiansand, Norway. All exports of nickel from Norway since the outbreak of the war were subject to arrangements negotiated between the United Kingdom Ministry of Economic Warfare and the Falconbridge Nikkelverk Refinery. With the German invasion of Norway, shipments of nickel matte from Canada ceased immediately.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. McGREGOR:: 
ENLISTED MEN RETURNED TO CANADA
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	How many _ enlisted men and officers, who went overseas either with the first division or subsequently, have been returned to Canada?
2.	Why were they returned?
3.	Have they since been discharged from the army?
4.	Will they be entitled to pensions?
5.	If so, to what amount?


MONTREAL CONSTRUCTION COMPANY-SHELL PRODUCTION
Mr. HOMUTH:: 1.	How many shells of each size have been produced by the Montreal Construction Company pursuant to the contract awarded to them on November 17, 1937?
2. What prices have been paid for these shells?
3.	What further orders for shells have been given to the Montreal Construction Company by the government?
4. What prices have been paid for such further shells or what amounts have been contracted for?
5.	Under what date or dates were these further contracts awarded, and by what means?
6.	What is the total amount paid out or contracted for by the government for machinery to equip the plant of the Montreal Construction Company?
7.	What amount of money is still owing to the Montreal Construction Company in respect to its original contract?

Questions as Orders for Returns


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-MONTREAL TERMINAL
Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	What is the total of_ the expenditures made by the Canadian National Railways on the Montreal Terminal project up to March 31, 1940, under the authority of the vote of last session for the expenditure of $4,200,000 i
2 What contracts or other commitments have the Canadian National Railways entered into in this connection, covering sums which are not yet clue or paid, but which are not included in the answer to the previous question?
3.	In view of the present crisis, is it the intention of the government to authorize the Canadian National Railways to continue with this programme, which was stated in the first session of 1939, to contemplate expenditures of $12,600,000 during the fiscal years ending March 31, 1940, 1941 and 1942?
4.	Will	the	government	obtain	from	the
management of the Canadian National Railways and publish drawings and descriptions of the station building which it is proposed to erect under the $12,600,000 project?
5.	Will	the	government	obtain	from	themanagement of the Canadian National Railways and publish plans and descriptions of all other work to be carried out by the Canadian National	Railways under the	$12,600,000
project?
6.	Does	the	contemplated expenditure	of
$12,600,000 cover:	(a) the conversion of the
Bonaventure station area into a local freight delivery terminal; (b) the rearrangement of the Canadian National Railways freight yard at Turcotte?
7.	Does the $12,600,000 project correct the lack of a connection between the east end and west end freight yards of the Canadian National Railways which was stated by the officers of the railways to be a major operating disability?
8.	Does the $12,600,000 project cover the foreseeable requirements of the Canadian National Railways in connection with its Montreal terminals?
9.	Is it the intention of the government to authorize the Canadian National Railways to treat this project as a first instalment of the execution of the so-called Palmer project, which was estimated to cost in excess of $50,000,000?
10.	When will the Canadian National Railways suspend electric passenger car service on the Victoria bridge, and substitute a transfer of passengers at the south end of that bridge .from electric tramway cars to train, as outlined :In published descriptions of the $12,600,000 project?
11.	In making the decision to proceed with improvements to their Montreal terminals, did -the officers of the Canadian National Railways [DOT]consult with the management of the Canadian Pacific Railway to ascertain whether the city of Montreal could be given equal or better terminal facilities at a less cost to the public by cooperative action between the two companies as contemplated under the Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act, 1933?
[Mr. Homuth.l


VOLUNTARY SERVICE-UTILIZATION OF MAN-POWER
Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: 1.	Is	the	government	using	all	available
voluntary service of man-power in Canada to help in the war effort? If so, how?
2.	Is	the	government	using	all	available
voluntary service of woman-power to help in the war effort? If so, how?
3.	How many men over the age of 21 are registered with the voluntary service bureau?
4.	How many women over the age of 21 are registered with the voluntary service bureau?
5.	How many Canadians under the ^ge of 21 are registered with the voluntary service bureau?
6.	Under what categories are the voluntary service lists being indexed?


CANADIAN FARM LOAN BOARD-SASKATCHEWAN
Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	How many loans were applied for under *the Canadian Farm Loan Board in the province of Saskatchewan in 1939-40?
2.	How many part-time appraisers did the Canadian Farm Loan Board employ in the province of Saskatchewan in 1939-40?
3.	What are the names, the salaries, the expense accounts of the part-time appraisers, and of the full-time appraisers, in the province of Saskatchewan, under the Farm Loan Board?


James Layton Ralston: Return tabled.


PENSIONS FOR THE BLIND-SASKATCHEWAN
Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	How many persons were examined in 1939-40 in the province of Saskatchewan for pensions for the blind?
2.	How many were granted a pension for the blind in 1939-40 in the province of Saskatchewan?
3.	Who are the examiners for the pensions for the blind in the province of Saskatchewan?
4.	What salary does each examiner receive?
5.	How much remuneration did each such examiner receive in the province of Saskatchewan in 1939-40?
6.	How much of a contribution did the dominion government make to the province of Saskatchewan in the year 1939-40, for pensions for the blind?



RIOTING IN SASKATCHEWAN


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Big-gar):: Mr. Speaker, has the attention of the government been drawn to the damage to property and danger to life occasioned by rioting in which civilians and uniformed soldiers participated in Regina on the evening of Thursday, May 16? If so, what steps are being

Rioting in Saskatchewan
taken to investigate the causes and prevent recurrences of a similar nature? I gave notice of the question yesterday.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): I received notice of this question before coming into the chamber. The facts reported to me are as follows:
On May 16 last the district officer commanding military district No. 12 heard a rumour to the effect that some trouble might be expected between soldiers stationed in Regina and the German element in the east end of the city. He immediately called a conference of all commanding officers and acquainted them with the situation.
Later on the same evening between 80 and 100 soldiers congregated in the east end of Regina and despite the fact officers attempted to stop them they proceeded first to the Ukrainian labour temple, then to the Canadian German club where certain damage was done to hangings, furniture and glass. From here they carried on to the Austrian Ivitchen where equipment was damaged and windows broken. The total damage was reported to be in the neighbourhood of $3,400.
At this point the district officer commanding met the soldiers involved and persuaded them to return to their quarters. Large crow'ds had gathered and apparently those actively engaged in the disturbance were incited and encouraged by civilian sympathizers. The mayor and chief of police were interviewed and they decided that in the best interests of all concerned no action would be taken by the civil authorities. Meanwhile the military authorities endeavoured to trace the ringleaders. Demonstrations were continued on the night of the 17th, damage being done to the Metropole hotel, the Regina hotel, the Courier, and Fuhrman's butcher shop. As on the previous occasion the soldiers (about fifty in number) were again apparently encouraged by a large number of civilian sympathizers.
The efforts of the military and civil police were greatly handicapped by the civilians massed about the scenes of the demonstrations which also made the apprehension of the culprits extremely difficult. The civilian police were unable to keep the crowds on the move. No arrests were made by the civil authorities, but a number of soldiers were taken into custody by the military pickets. As a result all troops were confined to barracks and strong pickets sent out to patrol the streets. The garrison was paraded and spoken to by the district officer commanding and further precautions taken against any repetition.
On Sunday, May 19, about twenty soldiers did about $300 damage to an out-of-the-way
Chinese cafe in Saskatoon. This is at -the moment the subject of a court of inquiry. Three ringleaders were put under arrest by the military police. This raid occupied only about five minutes. On the night of the 19-th a group of four to six soldiers-presumably on leavo-^did some damage at Estevan. The police were unable to identify the participants, so that no further action could be taken.


Mr. CHURCH:: Get these men overseas and there won't be any rioting.



SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to
make a statement on the subject matter connected with the question which has just been answered. This information has particular reference to the defence of Canada regulations, and deals with enemy aliens.
The police have for the past several years been watching closely the activities of foreign-controlled organizations in Canada. Prior to the outbreak of war, on the 14th March, 1938, the government appointed a committee under the chairmanship of the under-secretary of state, Doctor E. H. Coleman, to make representations to the government as to what should be done in the event of war with respect to the persons of enemy nationality resident in Canada. The committee prepared a report and suggested certain regulations, which were subsequent^ incorporated as regulations 24, 25 and 26 of the defence of Canada regulations.
The committee recommended that all enemy aliens in Canada, so long as they peacefully pursue their ordinary avocations, should be allowed to continue to enjoy the protection of the law and should be accorded the respect and consideration due to peaceful and law-abiding citizens, and that they should not be arrested, detained or interfered with, provided they comply with the requirements in respect of registration prescribed in the regulations, unless there was reasonable ground to believe that they had been engaged in espionage or were engaging or attempting to engage in acts of a hostile nature, or in giving or attempting to give information to the enemy, or unless they otherwise contravened any law.
It was known to the police prior to the outbreak of war that some enemy aliens were engaging in activities which in the event of war would be prejudicial to the interests or safety of the state. Some persons who were actively engaged in furthering the nazi cause

Defence Regulations-Enemy Aliens,
Under this regulation the communist party of Canada was, under a judgment of Mr. Justice Chevrier of the Supreme Court of Ontario on May 15, 1940, declared to be an illegal organization, with the result that every one who after the date of the said judgment, if confirmed, continues to be or becomes an officer or member of the communist party of Canada or professes to be such, or who advocates or defends the acts, principles or policies of the communist party of Canada, is guilty of an offence against the defence of Canada regulations and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months, or to both fine and imprisonment, or liable upon conviction by indictment to a fine not exceeding 85,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both fine and imprisonment.
It is, of course, to be understood that regulations 39, 39A and 62 apply to all persons, whether British or alien.
By way of summary I desire to point out the following:
1.	The law and the regulations as they stand cover all possible eventualities.
2.	The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their secret service are in complete control of the situation, both present and as it may develop.
3.	Persons of present enemy origin suspected of nazi activities have been interned.
4.	Persons of potential enemy origin are known and are being closely watched.
5.	The overwhelming majority of foreign-born citizens are passionately anti-nazi.
6.	Any cessation of labour or diversion of effort to deal with matters that are being and can only be handled by the. police would be helping the enemy.
7.	Any persecution of racial minorities in this country is unworthy of our people, and foreign to our traditions and our national spirit.
8.	In addition to the measures that have been taken, all military precautions have been instituted to safeguard public works, communications, transport facilities, and other property from sabotage or so-called fifth column activities.
.May I add in conclusion that it is the intention to have all these matters submitted to a committee of the house for consideration and recommendation as to any changes that may appear to be desirable.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Mr. Speaker, just one question arising out of the minister's statement. Would he be good 
enough to tell the house whether any of these reported 14,000 odd enemy aliens are in the employ of Ihe dominion government?


Ernest Lapointe: I hope
not, but I cannot answer that question.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
he will find that some are.



ENEMY ALIENS-USE OF SERVICES OF WAR VETERANS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. N. J. M. LOCKHART (Lincoln):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the statement just made by the Minister of Justice and the many communications received by myself and by other hon. members with respect to enemy aliens in this country would it be possible for the government to give some indication of its attitude with respect to using returned men in that connection?
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence):	The further use
of veterans of the last war is receiving the attention of the two departments chiefly concerned, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Justice, and I might add the Department of Pensions and National Health. I hope shortly to be able to make a further announcement as to the specific plans that may be adopted to that end.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: May I have the pleasure of handing to the minister certain communications that might be helpful?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Certainly.



NATIONAL DEFENCE

[Stage Direction]
rOSSIBLE DEVELOPMENT IN THE NIAGARA DISTRICT FOR ACCOMMODATION OF TROOPS
On the orders of the day:
Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Mr. Speaker, may I direct an inquiry to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), which perhaps he may not be able to answer to-day. In the light of the statement made yesterday by the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) that a number of large construction programmes are being carried on, I would ask the minister whether in view of the set-up in the Niagara-on-the-Lake district which has been established over a long period of years a development is likely to take place there to house a large number of troops.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): I shall be glad to take note of the question and give my hon. friend an answer to the question as soon as possible.
War Appropriation-Mr. MacNicol



EUROPEAN WAR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: May I ask the Minister of Immigration (Mr. Crerar) to inform the house as to the government's policy with respect to relieving the mother country of the care of a large number of refugee children from different countries of Europe.


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Immigration) :: The matter is under consideration by the government. If my hon. friend will allow his question to stand I may be able to give him a fuller answer to-morrow.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to supplement immediately the answer given by my hon. colleague, by adding that the subject matter of Canada's accepting refugees has for some little time past been receiving the attention of the government. Communications have been taking place with the British government through our high commissioner's office in Great Britain. I mention this because my colleague spoke of giving an answer to-morrow, I thought the house might like to know immediately that the question has been taken up and that we are awaiting information with respect to aspects of it which the government will have to have before it can announce any definite action.



STATEMENT AS TO RECENT DEVELOPMENTS ON WESTERN FRONT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, if it would be wise on my part to attempt to give the house day by day a statement of the situation ,in Europe. But where there is reason for grave concern or where there may be some word of exceptional interest of an opposite character I believe it might be desirable to give such information to the house as it is received from authoritative sources. I mention that lest the house should come to expect a daily bulletin, so to speak, on the war situation. I should doubt the wisdom of that. The information being received by the government officially might be in some particulars colourless owing to the war situation continuing much the same, the country in consequence might get a wrong impression of just what is taking place from statements of the kind.
Today, however, the situation has become quite serious and I think that I ought to give to the house such official information as the government has received up to the time that I came into the chamber.
In northwestern France the conflict is waging with great intensity, but at such widely scattered points that uncertainty remains as to the exact position. The main German advance yesterday ran on the line from Cam-brai through Baupaume to. Albert. The main French armies had formed new defensive positions south of the Somme and Aisne rivers. The German advance forces appeared to have halted yesterday, but to-day succeeded in pushing through Abbeville up as far as Boulogne, where heavy fighting is continuing. A French counter-attack has' reached Cambrai and the British forces on the Franco-Belgian border, which the Germans are seeking to cut off, have also counter-attacked strongly to the south. British air bombers have done heavy damage against German concentration centres in the Ruhr area, and along the river Meuse.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday, May 22, consideration of the motion of Mr. Ralston that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That sums not exceeding $700,000,000 be granted to His Majesty toivards defraying any expenses that may be incurred by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada;
(c)	promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever; and
(d)	the carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or advisable by the governor in council in consequence of the existence of a state of war.
With provision also empowering the governor in council to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, such sum or sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of $700,000,000 as may be required for the purpose of defraying the aforesaid expenses, the principal and interest of any such loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
Mr. J. R. MacNICOL (Davenport):: Mr. Speaker, in view of the grave news that came over the air to-day and has just been given to the house by the Prime Minister (Mr. COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mr. MacNicol
Mackenzie King), it is with a good deal of anxiety in my heart-and all hon. members I am sure are equally anxious-that I rise to continue this debate. Nevertheless I am convinced that God Almighty will carry the British empire through this crisis as He has protected it in the past; because the British and the French empires are doing and have done more for His cause than have any other of the warring nations.
In view of the gravity of the situation I intend to shorten my remarks, leaving out much that I would otherwise have said. At the same time, having listened to the statement of the Prime Minister on Monday, and to the statements of the ministers of finance, national defence, and munitions and supply, I regard it as my duty to refer to each of those speeches, because they contain, so far as I can see, the sum total of the government's war effort, an effort which is receiving throughout the country a very great deal of criticism. I have been told by the press that the Secretary of State for the Dominions, Viscount Caldecote, has to-day issued an appeal to the dominions for aeroplanes, and has stated that one plane now will be worth ten later on. That undoubtedly is true.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend will probably allow me the privilege of touching on the point that he has raised. I think it should be dealt with immediately.


John Ritchie MacNicol: So long as the right hon. gentleman does not take up too much of my time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. I am sure hon. members will allow my hon. friend any loss of time I may occasion him. The government has learned through the press-I repeat, through the press-of a statement made to-day by Lord Caldecote in London, in which the dominions secretary points out the supreme immediate importance of maintaining and increasing supplies of planes and war materials. This statement is reported to have been addressed to the dominion governments.
For the information of the house I wish it to be known that no official communication of this nature has yet been received by the Canadian government. If such a message does come, we shall, of course, inform the government of the United Kingdom of our determination to do everything that is humanly possible to assist.
As a matter of fact, hon. members will wish to know that on Saturday of last week we communicated with the United Kingdom government stating that we were " willing to do everything possible to encourage and assist

in the development of increased production in Canada for Allied purposes, and that Canadian manufacturers are ready to undertake to the limit of their capacity production of such supplies as can be manufactured in this country." This statement, of course, merely reaffirms what we had already said repeatedly in earlier communications to the governments of our Allies.
On the specific point of the supply of planes the house will, I know, approve the action of the government in offering, as was done on Tuesday last, to forward at once to the United Kingdom all the machines of a certain type now available in Canada. Other steps of a similar nature which it would not be expedient to describe publicly have also been taken.
I thank my hon. friend for allowing me to state the position, which I think it is important should be made known at once.


John Ritchie MacNicol: As I said a moment ago,. I take it that the four speeches I have alluded to contain the sum total of what the government has done in its war effort.
On May 20 the Prime Minister said that on May 10 of this year the total personnel in the Canadian active service force was-81,519, and that "in the three services"- presumably the army, the navy and the air force-the total is approximately 100,000 men. With reference to the air service alone the Prime Minister stated that there are 10,926 airmen-which number includes, I assume, not only the aviators but everyone associated with them-or 12,315 of all ranks. Yet of all these men enlisted for the air service, only a single squadron, No. 110, is overseas. Further, of eighty-odd thousand men in the army and naval services, a single division is overseas, consisting of a total of 23,678 men.
Then the Prime Minister referred to Newfoundland. I have a recollection that in September last he made the statement that Canada was going to take care of or to assist in the defence of Newfoundland. A few days ago I met in Toronto a gentleman associated with the administration of Newfoundland, and I asked him if that promise had been carried out, particularly in relation to the strait of Belle Isle and Saint John harbour. He may not have had complete information, but he told me that in neither case has Canada assisted in Newfoundland's defence.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh, well, he could not possibly have full knowledge of the situation.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, particularly those two, the strait of Belle Isle and the harbour of Saint John.

War Appropriation-Mr. MacNicol


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We are assisting very materially.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Shouldn't the hon. member be allowed to make his
speech?


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Minister of National Defence also made some statements as _ to -what Canada has done, but he did not give the same figures as the Prime Minister. He .stated that the total enlistments in the active service forces of Canada were 72,013, or with the reinforcements, 83,394, but the Prime Minister's statement referred to the figures as of May 10, while the date the Minister of National Defence had in mind was May 20, which may account for the difference in the figures. The minister also stated that there -was just one division overseas, but he said that the division on May 20 consisted of 25,692 officers and men. He also stated, as the Prime Minister had done, that there is one squadron of flyers overseas.
The Minister of Finance gave as the total of Canada's financial contribution from September 1 of last year to March 31, $112,000,000, or up to May 15, $136,000,000; and he stated that the commitments up to March 31 were $267,000,000.
Then the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) said that the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor had purchased $225,000,000 worth of equipment. The figures do not just jibe.


James Layton Ralston: Will my hon. friend permit me to say this? Those commitments are exclusive of pay and allowances. Of course he will understand that commitments are made now for pay and allowances for the balance of the year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am dealing only with munitions.


James Layton Ralston: Oh, no. My hon, friend quoted me as having said that that is the total of our financial contribution; he did not confine it to munitions.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does that include pay and
allowances?


James Layton Ralston: It does not include pay and allowances for the remainder of the year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I did not say it did. I am trying to confine my remarks to munitions. I am trying to set out that in my judgment, from the statements of the four members of the cabinet to whom I have referred, the contribution of Canada to the war effort is small.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend and I never disagree. I just want to be sure that we understand each other. I understood my hon. friend to indicate that what he was giving was my statement as to the total financial contribution. He did not confine it to munitions but spoke of the total financial contribution. He stated that I said the commitments were $237,000,000 up to March 31. I am pointing out that these commitments do not include our commitments for pay and allowances.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister's present statement does not conform to what he said.
I will read what he did say:
The house may wish to know the expenditures from September 1 to March 31. For this period the total payments on defence account were $112,000,000.
The total payments to May 15 were $136,000,000. The commitments from September 1 to March 31 in addition to pay and allowances amounted to $267,000,000, not $237,000,000 as the minister said.


James Layton Ralston: I said that those were commitments in addition to pay and allowances.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Minister of Transport made an exhaustive speech in which there was a good deal of information. He spoke of contracts having been let to the amount of $225,000,000. I have looked carefully through the list of contracts, searching diligently for contracts pertaining to the things that men fight with. I quite agree that the materials in all these contracts are necessary. They consist largely of food supplies of all sorts, material for buildings everywhere throughout Canada, electrical equipment, heating and plumbing supplies, textiles, medical and sanitary supplies, furniture of all kinds, boots, aeroplanes and boats, railroad cars, handkerchiefs, locomotives and clothing of one sort or another-a long list of materials of every description. But I cannot find in this list of contracts anything relating to shells, rifles, tanks, bayonets, guns and so forth.
Yesterday the minister said that since these reports had appeared about 2,500,000 shells had been ordered. Something was said also to the effect that the letting of shell contracts compares favourably with the situation in 1914. I believe the point the minister was making was that the shell contracts had been let more rapidly this time than in the last war.


Mr. HOWE:: No, I said about the same.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But industry to-day is infinitely better equipped for making shells than it was in 1914. In 1914 industry in

War Appropriation-Mr. MacNicol
Canada did not have shell making machines of consequence, and such machines as they had were slow. I was thoroughly familiar with the making of shells at that time. To-day however the shell making machines are marvellous compared with those that were in use in 1914; they are many times more rapid. In a few minutes they can turn out the very latest shells. In fact the Canadian manufacturers of shell-making machines are producing, I am told, machines that are unsurpassed anywhere in the world-which is borne out by the fact that our manufacturers are shipping^ shell-making machines to all parts of the empire, including large numbers to Great Britain. They are equipping whole plants over there for turning out shells of various types.
The minister spoke about the air training scheme. I sincerely regret that when we began purchasing aeroplanes, which we should have done two or three years ago or even before that, we did not try to create a plant in Canada, even if only a small pilot plant under the control of the government, for making aeroplanes in this country. I very much regret this, having been associated for so many years with working men. I hate to see this vast quantity of equipment coming from outside. Perhaps it would be better for us if a good deal more were coming in, but that does not alter the fact that we should have been able to make aeroplanes in Canada ourselves instead of merely assembling, or largely assembling them.


Mr. FRASER (Northumberland):: We are making aeroplanes in Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: No, we are not making aeroplane engines here. We should be.


Mr FRASER (Northumberland):: We are building aeroplanes


John Ritchie MacNicol: The hon. gentleman can get up and make his own speech; I want to finish my own. As far as I can see, in the past eight and a half months, since the outbreak of war in September last, the sum total of Canada's present war contribution at the scene of action has been, as I have stated, quoting what the Prime Minister said. After eight and a half months we have one division and one flying squadron in England, but not at the scene of action. I am going to recall 1914 for a moment. I remember the period quite well, as most members do. Everything was sailing along down stream without any thought of war, certainly not until the assassination at Sarajevo. Throughout the month of July, 1914, people went on their holidays, carried on their business as usual and pursued their customary avocations. At the end 
of July or beginning of August, 1914, stark tragedy faced the world. Canada was drawn into the maelstrom along with the rest of the empire, and in nine and a half months Canada had fully equipped, thoroughly armed and well dressed battalions in France to the number of 40,000 men and another 20,000 in England. I am not complaining particularly about what the government has done, but I want to show that what was done in 1914 was infinitely superior to what has so far been accomplished in this war, especially in view of the fact that prior to 1914 there were no warnings whereas prior to 1939 we had three years of warning. Great Britain and France were rearming feverishly and we should have been doing the same.


Mr. HOWDEN:: Will the hon. member permit a question?


John Ritchie MacNicol: This is too serious an occasion to waste time or words. What I am stating is a fact.


John Power Howden: The question would challenge the hon. gentleman's fact.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Hon. members have no doubt read an article which appeared in last night's Ottawa Journal; I have it here. After nine months, it states, in 1914 we had 40,000 men in France.


Mr. MACKENZIE  ICING@: If the hon. gentleman wishes to make the comparison fairly, perhaps he will tell us what was done in 1914 so far as naval defence was concerned, and also what was done by air at that time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think the Prime Minister should say that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In reply to the Prime Minister's question with regard to aeroplanes in 1914, I might ask what this government did about cavalry in 1939. In 1914 aeroplanes were not the important factor they are to-day, but cavalry was very important. While I have not the figures here, I have no doubt that the Canadian government dispatched cavalry to the front in 1914.


Mr. McNEVIN:: Is there any comparison between cavalry and aeroplanes?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, if the government plant at Lindsay had been devoted to the manufacture of aeroplanes we might be turning out aeroplanes in Canada to-day, instead of having had a plant capable of giving employment to 1,500 standing idle for some years past. It is what the government has done that has occasioned the criticism that is being offered in the press across the entire dominion. There is no use denying it; the government know as well as I do what ha


War Appropriation-Mr. MacNicol
been said all over the country in the press and by great clubs and associations. On May 21 the St. Clair Business Men's Association of Toronto sent a telegram to the Prime Minister, a copy of which was sent to me as 'well. That is one of the largest business men's organizations in Canada; in the summer time it sometimes has 20,000 people present at its outings. The telegram stated:
At a meeting of this association held to-day the following resolution was passed unanimously:	.	.	.
That in the opinion of this association nothing will satisfy the people of Canada short of the use of the last ounce of energy and the last dollar in the prosecution of this war.
That is the opinion of a large business men's association. On Sunday last in this city a well known clergyman gave an address from the pulpit, a report of which appeared in the Ottawa Journal of Monday morning, headed:
Declares it Time Government Woke Up.
That is public opinion, and no doubt the Prime Minister has had many telegrams and read many articles along the same line.
I should like to give one or two headings from some of our leading newspapers. This was in the Toronto Telegram:
Why the Paralysis in Canada's War Effort? The results show that there has been a paralysis, so far as placing troops in the front line is concerned. We have not a battalion in France yet, so far as I know, unless it went over within the last day or two. In the Ottawa Citizen of May 2 we read this:
They have projected this controversial matter (the dominion-provincial report) into dominion and provincial politics wholly to shield the head of a government of a defenceless people.
That was the opinion of none other than the premier of Ontario, the greatest province of Canada. I have been wondering if the reason for the laxity of the government in prosecuting the war lies within the Prime Minister himself. He has been a peace loving man. Everyone should love peace, but we have to face stark war when it comes. On September 8 of last year the Prime Minister said:
I never dreamed that the day would come when, after spending a lifetime in a continuous effort to promote and to preserve peace and goodwill in international as well as in industrial relations, it should fall to my lot to he the one to lead this Dominion of Canada into a great war.
Well, I wonder if the right hon. gentleman has been able to transmute his laudable desires for peace into a desire to promote war now that he is compelled to face war, or whether he is still consumed with the desire for peace in the face of this stark war.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If my hon. friend is asking me the question, I will tell him that I am trying to hasten the day when peace will come by putting forth the strongest possible effort against the greatest enemy of peace in the world to-day.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If the hon. gentlemen who are applauding what the Prime Minister has just said are satisfied, after eight and a half months of war, with not having a Canadian battalion in France and not having an air squadron at the front, I can say -that I am not satisfied. I maintain that ours has been a very weak war effort, and that is why we find the press and many important associations and clubs throughout Canada denouncing this government.
This is not a time for talk; in conclusion let me say this. Probably the Prime Minister is doing the best he can, but he is not surrounded by the ablest men he could select as ministers. He has some able men but there are others sitting around him who are also able. I am sure he could pick capable men, out of the rump over here or elsewhere throughout the house, to reform his cabinet into a fighting war cabinet-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order; there is too much noise in the chamber. If the hon. gentleman wishes to do so of course he may allow these interruptions, but he is entitled to proceed without being interrupted. I suggest that the noise should cease.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the Prime Minister wanted to reorganize his cabinet and carry on he could get a number of good men from his own following. But if I were prime minister I would not do that. I would do what the press of Canada are asking him to do, in the face of stark reality, when perhaps the empire is crumbling. I hope and pray to God that is not so, but the situation is so serious that he should be surrounded by the ablest men available. Today the press are asking the Prime Minister to do what has been done in both France and England-to establish a national government^ to surround himself with the best and ablest men in this country.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Hon. members may laugh, but I am not interested in politics at this time; I do not care a fig for politics.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is not a laughing matter, either. I am interested in doing my level best and contributing what I can in the most

War Appropriation-Mr. MacNicol
useful manner to assist Canada to help the empire win this war. With me that comes ahead of anything else. The great Toronto *Globe-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Ritchie MacNicol: You may laugh at that, too, but the Globe is a great newspaper. Another great newspaper, the Border Cities iStar-


Mr. MARTIN:: Hear, hear.


John Ritchie MacNicol: My hon. friend says *"hear, hear." He is the last person I should expect to say that, in view of what this newspaper said about his leader. This is what the Border Cities Star had to say:
He has shown, mote and more every day, that he is temperamentally unfitted to lead a country in a great war effort.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That was said during the recent campaign by my hon. friend's leader at that time, but the people of Canada took a different view.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I certainly do not like to sec the Prime Minister injecting politics into a discussion of this kind.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have refrained from politics in the course of my remarks; I have tried to be constructive and certainly I have not been recriminatory, in accordance with the suggestion made by the Prime Minister a few days ago.
In my humble judgment, which is supported by the great editors of this country, and by the great clubs and associations, the government is not giving Canada an opportunity to contribute its full strength and help to the allies in this hour of distress. The government should wake up and start again, forgetting the past and rallying behind the motherland. Cable the motherland that you are going to send them a thousand aeroplanes; cable them that you are going to send them a thousand tanks. We are not making tanks in Canada, but I could name a score of large industrial plants in this country in which tanks could be made within a reasonable length of time.


An hon. MEMBER:: Oh, sure.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes, I can. I would point out to the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin), who spoke a moment ago, that there is a large plant near Windsor, an auxiliary steel plant, about a thousand feet long, and more or less than 300 feet wide, a plant which has its own blast furnaces. They may not be right up to date, but they could be brought IMr. MacNicol.]
up to date. Yet that great plant stands idle while Rome burns-and when I say "Rome" I mean France and the British empire.
Every plant and every man in Canada should be utilized, no matter what the government may be, and those plants and men should be doing their best to enable Canada, in this hour of the world's greatest need, to render to the British empire and to her gallant ally, France, the greatest possible measure of support.


Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, in this grave hour in the life of Canada and of the British empire and, indeed, of our Christian civilization, as a private member of the House of Commons I hesitate taking up any time at all in debate. My only reason for doing so is that I have certain suggestions to place before the government concerning our war effort-suggestions which I believe, the Canadian people as individuals would make to the government were that possible; suggestions as to which sooner or later-and I think it will be sooner-the Canadian people will compel action on the part of this or any other government which may be leading Canada.
All hon. members must feel to-day that the people of Canada are looking to us in parliament for leadership as they have never done before in the history of this young nation. Can we not keep our heads high; can we not show to our people courage, determination and initiative? I ask hon. members to do that; let us give encouragement to our people in these trying times.
My first suggestion is that recruiting should be thrown wide open, so that every fit Canadian wishing to serve in our fighting forces may do so. The government must take full advantage of the will of our people to serve.
1 he greatest failure of the government-and in my criticism I shall try not to be destructive-in directing the war effort of Canada has been its failure to harness the enthusiasm and, further, the patriotism of the Canadian people.
We are depending on volunteers to fight for Canada overseas and to defend her at home. Volunteering must be encouraged in every way. All hon. members know what has happened ; I dare say each one of us knows what has been happening in connection with recruiting. When the war broke out the men who had been in the militia were called up; they left their jobs, and then some units were either demobilized or reduced in strength; the demobilized militiamen, being out of work, were thrown back on their own resources. This is the manner in which some of the militia were treated. With respect to volunteers, at their

War Appropriation-Mr. Green
own expense men have come to my home city of Vancouver from as far away as the Yukon in the north and Texas in the south, anxious to volunteer and perfectly fit to serve. Yet there was no chance for them to join the Canadian forces; they were told they were not needed. In some instances names were taken and the men were told that they could come back.
In his statement the other day the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) stated, quite properly, that we must now recruit for the third division; that recruiting for that division must be opened at once. He said further that we would continue to recruit reinforcements for our first and second divisions. Of course that is of paramount importance, and I commend the government for taking that step and thus making certain that these young Canadians of ours will not be left unsupported overseas. It is proper that they be adequately reinforced.
But why can we not also recruit up to strength the other non-permanent units? For example in my own city we have the British Columbia regiment, one which perpetuates the senior fighting battalion from that province in the last war, namely the 7th battalion. That unit is not in the active service force and not mobilized. Officers have drifted away to other units and men have been sent to other units. There they are, really not in a position to render any effective service.
If the government cannot afford to carry men in units of that type on a full-time basis, let them enlist in the militia as they would have done before the war, and train in the evenings. Frankly I am afraid that the question whether or not we can afford to pay these men has entered too largely into the military plans of the government.


James Layton Ralston: Does this resolution show it?


Howard Charles Green: Whether or not they are in
the active service force, all these units will be needed. They may be required for fighting right here in Canada within the next year. They cannot be recruited up to strength too soon. Whether or not they are needed to fight here as units, the training would be invaluable. We would be building up trained forces for use in any national emergency.
In this connection we have a good example to follow in Australia. What has been done in that country? With a population two-fifths less than ours-I quote from a newspaper dispatch, dated May 20, from Canberra- they have done this:
Intensified recruiting to form a seventh division of the second Australian imperial force was officially announced to-day.
Prime Minister It. G. Menzies announced the war cabinet's decision, while Brigadier Geoffrey A. Street, National Defence Minister, simultaneously issued a public appeal to young men to enlist in the new division.
" The utter ruthlessness of the German machine emphasizes the necessity of fighting to the bitter end," Brigadier Street said. " Increased recruiting can be an evidence of the allies' inflexible will to victory."
That same day in Ottawa Major General Sir William Glasgow, High Commissioner to Canada from Australia, told the Ottawa Rotary club that an estimated total of 90,000 troops would be sent abroad from Australia by June of 1941, and that a militia comprising 80,000 men was being maintained for home defence. If Canada were to have a similar force in proportion to her population, we would have 300,000 men under arms by the time specified by Sir William Glasgow.
The subject of recruiting brings me to that of training. I served in the last war, and if there is one thing that makes me heartsick about not recruiting men early enough it is the possibility that those men may go to war half-trained. That means nothing more or less than that young Canadians who would otherwise have had a chance for their lives will be killed. We cannot train a man to be a soldier in a week or a month. It took months in the last war, and it will take many more months in this one, in view of the high degree of mechanization. Those men should be given a chance to get the very best training. Now, we have this situation in British Columbia. The only way a young man can obtain training for a commission is in the officers' training corps of the university of British Columbia. That training corps, if you please, has been given orders to shut down from June 9 until September 15. One wonders whether or not there is a war on when things like that are done. Furthermore, one cannot enter that officers' training corps unless he is a graduate either of the university of British Columbia or of some other university. We have hundreds of bright young business men who are members of our junior board of trade-no doubt the same situation exists across Canada-yet many of them are not eligible for officer training. These men have shown by the success they have made of their business activities that they are leaders of men. Many of them would make excellent officer material. The officers' training plan in Canada should be enlarged at once. Certainly there should be no cessation of its activities during the summer months, with Canada facing a crisis which may mean the life or death of the nation.

War Appropriation-Mr. Green
My third suggestion is that immediate and drastic steps should be taken to procure equipment. Two days ago the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) stated that the enemy had a great preponderance of equipment. I think we all know that our overseas force did not leave Canada fully equipped with mechanical equipment. They had to get part of that equipment in Great Britain and apparently they had difficulty in obtaining it even there. What about our home forces, the forces that may have to fight in Canada? They cannot get equipment from Great Britain and they are entitled to the best equipment that can be manufactured in this day. We must manufacture it in Canada and perhaps purchase some in the United States or possibly in Australia. Our sister dominion has set up a system of state arsenals in which are manufactured many types of equipment which we cannot get here now; I suggest to the government that they should try to purchase certain equipment from Australia. Speaking in the house yesterday, the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) uttered these words:
In the matter of supplies for Canada's armed forces the department must decide whether it is desirable to initiate Canadian production or to buy abroad. This depends largely on the quantity required and whether the source of supply in Canada for a particular article is justified as a defence measure, even though production in Canada means greatly increased [DOT]costs for the quantities required.
May I say to him and to the government that every type of equipment needed to equip troops to meet this modern type of warfare is required as a defence measure in Canada, regardless of the cost, and steps should be taken to see that it is manufactured here. The minister continued:
Canada does not attempt to manufacture *every item of equipment required by its troops [DOT]overseas,
I realize the difficulty and I sympathize with the minister in having to solve this problem, but I say that Canadian initiative is great, *and Canadian initiative is needed here. The initiative of Canadian labour and the initiative of Canadian industry are well known, and if the government step into the job I believe we can manufacture in Canada the equipment needed to provide our troops with the most modern weapons. We may have to become the arsenal of the British empire. If Great Britain is bombed, as she may well be even within the next twenty-four hours, and the factories of the mother country are *destroyed, we may have to become the arsenal for the empire. We should take steps at once to prepare ourselves to carry out that task.
My fourth suggestion is that we raise home defence units of the different infantry regiments, batteries and other military formations. For example, there could be a second or third battalion of the British Columbia regiment to which I have just referred. Have it understood that these units will be home defence units, and I suggest that they be thrown open to the returned soldiers of Canada. At the present time most of the non-permanent militia units perpetuate Canadian corps units. Why should we not take advantage of the spirit shown by the Canadian corps in the last war? Look at the record of that corps. Those of us who served in it are prouder of having served in the old corps than of anything else we have done in our lives. There is no reason why that same spirit cannot be put into this present effort.
The members of the Canadian corps had courage; they had determination; they had initiative. What has been the record of the returned men of Canada since the war? Time and time again, in periods of depression and of unrest, in every crisis in the life of our nation, the returned soldiers of Canada have stepped in and said, "Steady; we must face this situation in a sensible way." More than any other group they have steadied this nation since the last war. A year ago, before Canada was at war, they offered to register for service in the event of trouble, and over 60,000 returned men did so. What has been done with those registrations? Nothing at all that I know of, or at least very little. These men can be relied upon in any emergency. I do not care what comes up, they can be relied upon to do their job and to do it well. The failure to use the Canadian veteran in this war has been another grave mistake of the present government. As a home defence force they would do a great deal to bring a new spirit to the Canadian people.
My final suggestion concerns the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe). I suggest to him that the Canadian people have a right to be relieved at once of worry over possible fifth column activities; in other words, they should be free from worry over treachery at home. Our people have enough trouble now without having to worry about whether or not they are going to be stabbed in the back. All those who might be treacherous are not German-born; make no mistake about that. There are other people in this country who would be just as dangerous. I realize there must be no persecution of Germans or any other group simply because they are of certain racial descent. Those of our foreign bom population who are loyal-I agree with the Minister of Justice that they are in the great majority

War Appropriation-Mr. Douglas (Weyburn)
-have a right to be cleared of suspicion, and that can be done only if the government acts in this matter.
What has been happening? A week ago to-day 2,000 people met in Vancouver and agitated for some action to meet this difficulty. To-day we heard in the house about riots in Regina over the same matter. I have always had great respect for the Minister of Justice, but in effect his answer to-day is that the matter will be referred to a committee of the house. The committee may meet next week, or it may not meet until next month and we may not get action until next fall. This is not the solution to this problem. It must be faced far more directly and far more quickly. I suggest that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should at once not only consult but act with the authorities and police in the different provinces and municipalities. Where there is any doubt as to the intentions of an individual, action should be taken now, and the case can be fully investigated later.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Surely that is being done.


Howard Charles Green: If steps are not taken at [DOT]once there is apt to be a breach of the peace in .many parts of Canada-there have been some already-innocent people will suffer with the guilty and the nation will be thrown into an atmosphere of distrust and suspicion. I urge the government to act at once.
In conclusion all these steps, every step which I have mentioned, can be taken by the government within a few hours, and they will Ire taken if the members of the house insist. Private members in this house supporting the government, and they alone, can force this government to take action on these matters, and I throw out the challenge to them. They are the ones who can get action for the Canadian people at this time. The Canadian people are crying out, they are desperate for leadership. They do not want pussy-footing leadership; they want bold leadership at this time, and it must come from this house and come quickly; because upon whether or not we give leadership .may depend the very survival of our nation. If we show steadiness, courage, determination, initiative, and faith in the Almighty, qualities which are common to Canadian men and women, we need have no fear that we shall have behind us in this crisis a strong united nation, and a nation that will not fail.


Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Mr. Speaker, since Canada entered the war this is the first opportunity I have had of making a few remarks in this chamber. I therefore ask the indulgence of the house if I take a
few minutes to outline the stand which my constituents sent me here to present regarding our part in this war.
First, I believe that apart from the conscription of men for overseas service this country should bend every effort towards the successful prosecution of this war. I believe in a cooperative commonwealth. That is, I believe in a society in which the natural resources, the key industries and the financial institutions would be cooperatively owned, and democracy-managed in the interests of all the people rather than exploited by a few. But such a society depends upon the free exercise of democracy. It depends, that is to say, upon freedom of speech and of the press, collective bargaining for labour and the farmer, and the exercise of parliamentary government. Wherever nazism has raised its head, these privileges have been ruthlessly suppressed. Because I believe these principles are at stake, I am prepared to see this country bend every effort towards successful resistance of the spread of the totalitarian states.
In recent months some of my friends have accused me of being an imperialist. I am far from being an imperialist. In the history of imperialism there are pages of which very few of us can be proud, but I say solemnly, Mr. Speaker, this afternoon that only the British commonwealth of nations and her allies stand against barbarism and the extermination of everything that makes life worth living to a civilized human being.
The people of Canada are a peace-loving people. There are few who hate war as much as the Canadian people do. But they are also a freedom-loving people; and if it is necessary to fight to prevent a group of international thugs and racketeers from spreading all over the world, I believe that the Canadian people in the main are prepared to fight. They are not unmindful of the fact that many of those who are to-day asking that we join with them to fight against Hitler were partly instrumental in bringing Hitler to power. I am not unmindful of the fact that some democracies played a lamentable part in undermining collective security. I am not unmindful of the unfortunate part which the Canadian government played in the Ethiopian crisis or of the speech which the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) made in September, 1936, before the assembly of the league when he said that we were not in favour of "peace by coercion." We are getting coercion now. I have not forgotten that in the last four or five years we have played a very sorry part by helping to arm the aggressor nations of the world. But, Mr. Speaker, I submit that these things are past
156	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mr. Douglas (Weybum)
and there can be no value in holding post mortems because the part that people who believe in democracy and who cherish our civilization should play to-day is to stand shoulder to shoulder to resist the megalomaniac who, drunk with power, now seeks to fasten his rotten and unscrupulous order upon the whole world.
The appropriation which the government now asks the house to vote is for a staggering sum of money-8700,000,006-staggering when we stop to realize that it is 40 per cent more than our entire budget has been in the past three years. It places a tremendous burden upon the taxpayers of Canada. This money is not my money; it is not the government's money; it is not the money of an}1- member of tli is house. It is the money of the thousands upon thousands of Canadian people who through sales taxes and other taxes contribute to the treasury of Canada, and in contributing that money there are certain things which I believe they have a right to demand of the government and parliament in appropriating that sum.
The first is that the war shall be conducted so far as possible efficiently and competently, without any of those blunders that cause men to lose their lives or the taxpayers' money to be squandered. I was born in the British isles, but I do not believe, as some do, that British general staffs are any more infallible than any other general staff. The history of the last war, Passchendaele, Loos and the Dardanelles, prove that any general staff, no matter how brilliant, may make mistakes. Even in the last nine months in some instances it has been shown beyond the shadow of a doubt that men's lives may be lost because other men have been given responsibilities for which they were not mentally equipped. The people of Canada have a right to know, in giving this money to the government and in offering their sons' lives, that this war is being conducted efficiently and competently. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) the other night made the plea that the government were doing their best, and he enumerated the cabinet one by one. There is not a member of this house, Mr. Speaker, who doubts at all the loyalty or integrity of any member of the government. I believe and I think we all believe that they are doing their best, and any criticism that is aimed at them is not the criticism that they are not doing their best, but whether that best is good enough. We are all going to do our best, but the Canadian people have a right to know whether our best is adequate to the situation. With that in mind I make two suggestions.
[Mr. T. C. Douglas.)
The first is that the Canadian government should ask for representation on the allied supreme war council. We should not place men and material at the disposal of military leaders, no matter how brilliant, without having some voice in the policy that will control the destiny of the men whom we are sending overseas.
The second suggestion is that there should be some method by which this house can check the efficiency and the competency of our war effort here in Canada.
There are many matters about which we cannot ask questions in this house. I suppose there is hardly an hon. member who has not some friends or constituents in the active service forces. I am sure that we have all been told different things which are far from reassuring. Even after they are trimmed of all exaggeration, and the tendency to grumble which one always finds in some quarters is taken into account, the fact remains that there are many things which we should like to know, but in the very nature of the case the questions cannot be asked, and if they were asked could not be answered. That situation might be met, as the Prime Minister suggested, by setting up a committee representing all the parties to which private and confidential information would be given. I hope that when that committee is set up,, it will be continued for the duration of the war. We might go further. We might do as they have done in the British house, and hold secret sessions from time to time.
There are many matters about which we cannot ask the ministry in this house; first,, because it would embarrass the ministry, and nobody wants to do that at this time; second, because even if the question could be answered in the affirmative, the mere fact that it was asked might create suspicion and undermine public confidence, and nobody wants to do that at this critical time.
Yesterday the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) made reference to supplies, for instance, shells. We should know how many shells we are producing a week, and the calibres. We should know the rate at which we are capable of producing them and how that rate compares with present needs. We should know what we are paying for them as compared with what other countries pay. Naturally that is confidential information and cannot be given openly.
We should know something with reference to our position here in Canada. The speaker who has just taken his seat made mention of the anxiety which is felt among the Canadian people because of the danger of "fifth column" activities. I agree with him that we should

War Appropriation-Mr. Douglas (Weyburn)
raise in Canada a home guard, but someone might ask the more pertinent question, "Have we anything with which to arm a home guard?" This house should know-confidentially-how many rifles and machine guns could be placed in the hands of a home guard in the *event of disturbances in Canada. Any hon. member who asked that question in the house and tried to embarrass the government would be doing a disservice to this country, but there should be methods by which we could ask that information and be given .some assurance which we in turn could pass on to the people whom we represent.
The second thing which I think we have a right to know when this money is being voted is that, while the Canadian people are sending out men to risk their lives, and the common people are assuming an ever-increasing burden of taxes, there are no profiteers in Canada fattening themselves upon the misery and the tears of the nations at war. No one needs to go back over the story of the last war. It is not a pretty picture. One year ago the government brought down the defence purchasing act, providing for a five per cent profit on all contracts not let by tender. We in this corner supported that act and applauded it. Strange to say, the moment we came face to face with the realities of the situation and were actually at war, and even before we were at war, the provision was removed by order in council. It was like giving a man an umbrella when the sun is shining, and taking it away as soon as it begins to rain. There was tabled yesterday a list of contracts amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars. We know nothing about the terms of those contracts, about the rates of delivery, about comparison of prices. There are, for instance, cost-plus contracts in which, the minister says, a margin of profit was allowed which was usual in the industry. Well, what is the "usual" margin in the industry? Who gauges what is the usual margin? The industry? Are they the best judges?


Mr. McGREGOR:: What about the five
per cent?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The five per
cent is gone, and the reason why it is gone is that on September 12 the Minister of Transport, from his place in the house, said that he and his department could not get the manufacturers of this country to accept contracts if the profits were limited to five per cent. I say, shame on any group of men who in Canada's hour of Gethsemane are not prepared to give their time, their industry and their machinery of production towards the cause of defending democracy in the world. It would seem to me, therefore, that during this
session the Prime Minister might take into . consideration, either the setting up of a special committee, or allowing the public accounts committee to go over those contracts so that that committee in turn can give assurance to the Canadian people that they are getting actual value for every dollar which is being spent.
With that in mind, I wish to make one or two suggestions to the government.
The first is that in our opinion you can have neither an efficient prosecution of the war nor a prosecution of the war free from profit unless you are prepared to nationalize the armaments industry in this country. In Great Britain in 1934 the Right Hon. Stanley Baldwin, as he then was, announced a rearmament programme, and for six years Great Britain has been vainly trying to catch up to the great nazi juggernaut. Yesterday, realizing that the attempts so far have not been as successful as they might have been, the British government brought in an act to conscript industry and to conscript wealth. They did more than that. They declared a one hundred per cent excess profits tax. Our excess profits tax in this country does not take even the cream off the profits. In Great Britain they decided to take away profits altogether. I make an appeal to this government not to wait until it is too late. Now is the time to conscript the armaments industry Why should the International Nickel company, for instance, using as it does greal natural resources of Canada, be allowed tc make between nine and ten million dollars clear profit, as it did in the past three months, at a time when we are asking other men to go out and fight for one dollar and thirty cents a day and are requiring the Canadian people to assume great burdens of taxation?
I think the Prime Minister is to be commended for setting up a Ministry of National Defence for Air. I hope that a minister will be separately charged with the entire responsibility of the Department of Munitions and Supply. It may even be necessary, and probably this parliament, before it prorogues, should give the government the power to set up a department of aircraft production.
Another thing we might do is to conscript those industries which are producing raw material for war purposes and exporting it. I suggest that the government should take the necessary steps to do this, so as to exercise some control over where that material is going. I do not intend to burden the house with statistics. My deskmate, the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), this afternoon received an answer from the government with regard to exported nickel. For the last four years the members of this group
158	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mr. Douglas (Weybum)
have cheeked very closely the exports of war material and have pleaded with this house again and again to stop the export of such material to aggressor nations, particularly Germany, Italy and Japan. This was not done. Now we are at war. The statistics given to us here-and I am not saying this in criticism; no other course is possible under the circumstances-with regard to the export of nickel to different countries ends with September last. In view of the war situation we are not allowed to know the names of the different countries to which nickel has been shipped; but for the period we do know anything about, between April and September, the export of nickel to Japan doubled, and we notice our total output since the outbreak of war has steadily increased, despite the fact, that belligerent nations are no longer importing our nickel. Where is the extra nickel going? To Great Britain? If so, well and good. But there are indications that war materials are going to Japan. What assurance has this house to give to the country that these raw materials for war purposes are not being transhipped to Vladivostock and thence to Germany. There may be a gentleman's agreement. I say that in this hour a gentleman's agreement is not good enough. Anyone who reads the report of the British parliamentary committee or the report of the Chamber of Deputies in France which investigated conditions in the last war knows that all through that war indirect shipments went on by which countries at war supplied one another with war material. I say to the government that the people of Canada are in no mood to be trifled with. I know nothing that would do more to put confidence, heart and enthusiasm into the Canadian people than for them to know definitely that steps were being taken to see to it that producers of war material in this country were not making profits out of nickel, scrapiron and copper finding its way into the hands of an enemy power to be used in the wounding of Canadian soldiers and in their destruction. The Canadian people have a right to know that.
I make one other suggestion. We have a right to know that while we are seeking to defend democracy in Europe we shall not be in any danger of losing it at home. I am well aware that strict measures are necessary in war time. We want no fifth column in Canada. No individual or organization that owes allegiance to a foreign power or a foreign ideology has any place in our Canadian life. At the same time the desire to prevent sabotage must not be used as a pretext to restrict our right to criticize governments and to subject governments' conduct of the war to the most 
rigid scrutiny. Some of the defence of Canada regulations need modification or qualification, and I think the government are to be congratulated upon setting up a committee for the purpose, although I would point out that these regulations might have been submitted to the House of Commons in September. For nine months we have been living under a set of regulations which parliament had no opportunity of examining or passing upon. Some of the radio censorship in the last election was almost ludicrous in a country that is fighting to preserve democracy, and some of the press censorship has been most puerile. Newspaper accounts of the Norwegian campaign which appeared in United States papers were carefully omitted from most of the Canadian papers. It is safe to say that the Canadian people, in the language of the street, "can take it". They do not want their news with a sugar-coating on it. They want to know, when they are given information through the press or over the radio, that they are getting the facts.
A fourth thing which the people of Canada have a right to know in voting this appropriation for carrying on the war is that this war will not be used as an excuse to lower their standard of living. We are already informed that some of the relief expenditures have been curtailed by the government. I am daily receiving letters from my constituency informing me that relief cheques supposed to be out on May 10 have not yet been issued, and in some instances where issued, they have been reduced 33 per cent. The farmers are finding all costs of production going up without a commensurate increase in their prices. People on small wages are finding that their wages are not rising in comparison with the cost of living. The common people are again beginning, through a reduced standard of living, to pay for the financing of the war.
I am aware that it takes money to fight a war. I am aware that sacrifices are involved. But I am also aware that these sacrifices could be more equally distributed than they are now. I am aware that in time of war the government needs money, but I am also aware that in Canada there is no lack of food, no lack of clothing, no lack of all those things that are necessary to give the great mass of the Canadian people a reasonably decent standard of living; and as long as those things are there, we should not be asked to use the war as an excuse to reduce the standard of living of the Canadian people.
One thing more I wish to say in conclusion. During this period of the war this parliament has been charged by the Prime Minister

War Appropriation-Mr. Ross (Souris)
with the responsibility of formulating some type of plan to meet the period of dislocation that may come after the war. It is to be hoped that will be done. One year ago young men could be seen "riding the rods" on freight trains across Canada. To-day hundreds are in his majesty's uniform. Most of us know some of these young men personally. These men are going to fight for a society that could not even give them a job. What do we propose to do with them when they come back? Do we propose to put them back on the rods? God forbid.
A great deal is said about winning the war. That is our paramount job, but it takes more than material and men to win a war. It takes morale, and the only way by which one can preserve democracy is to make democracy work so that it is worth preserving. The totalitarian states have given their people a measure of economic security and they have paid a terrible price for it; they have lost their freedom. In the democracies we have retained freedom and liberty, but the people have very little economic security. We in this group believe it is possible to have both economic security and liberty, and our task is to help to build this democracy so that the men who come back will find that this was not only a country worth fighting for but a country worth living in.
May I say this as I sit down. We all recognize that this is a black hour. There is very little use in the Pollyanna type of optimism. Most of us remember March of 1918. At that time I was a boy thirteen years of age; I stood on Buchanan street in Glasgow in a drizzling rain, together with hundreds of other people. Soldiers of the Canadian corps who spent their leave in Glasgow will remember the Maple Leaf building. There was a great map, on which were flags denoting the various armies' lines. On the particular morning to which I refer there was a gap in the lines; the bulletin announced that an entire British army had been wiped out and that the German military machine was on its way to Paris. That was probably the blackest day in the history of Great Britain, until this moment. There was not a sound, although there were hundreds upon hundreds of people in that crowd. Suddenly someone in front began to sing, and those Scottish workers, together with soldiers from every corner of the British commonwealth, taking off their hats, stood in the drizzling rain and sang:
0 God, our help in ages past,
Our hope for years to come.
As I looked around at those people I came to realize something of the inner resources that have made the British people great in the hour of danger, and that strength is still with us. My plea, Mr. Speaker, is: with firm faith in the "divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will"; with confidence in each other and with firm determination to do the right as we see it, let us, the Canadian people, stand shoulder to shoulder in this grim hour until at last the blackness of the night shall give way to the promise of a better day.


Mr. J. A. ROSS (Souris):: Mr. Speaker, even at this grave moment may I first of all extend my congratulations to you, as one coming from my native province, upon your election to the important office of Speaker of this house. Since your arrival on the prairies from the land of the heather I have followed your career with pride, and I know you will grace your office with dignity and impartiality.
Realizing my limitations, I hesitate to speak on this momentous occasion in what is probably the most serious session of parliament in the history of Canada. As a new member, with some definite instructions from my constituents, naturally I feel very much opposed to the usurpation of private members' privileges and rights in this house under our democratic system of government, which step was taken just the other day.
I am one of those who are thoroughly convinced that the war effort of the Canadian government to date has been half-hearted. In that belief I was confirmed by a minister of this government who last March stated from the public platform that the administration was purposely pursuing a middle-of-the-road policy in regard to the war effort. Last Tuesday in this house the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) stated that modern warfare required extensive and intensive training. From my experience in the last great war and in the militia since that time I fully appreciate this fact, but I believe this is a further reason why the many thousands of our young men who are so willing to enlist should have been mobilized, equipped, and put in training many months ago. Physical and disciplinary training is most necessary, no matter in what branch of the service they may serve. To a very great extent this would have assisted also in solving the great unemployment problem which we have to face even to-day. In my opinion our war effort up to the present time has been very weak, and our people have not received from the government the leadership to which they are rightly entitled.
160	COMMONS
War Appropriation-Mr. Ross (Souris)
I should like to say a word concerning agriculture. Napoleon said that an army marched on its stomach, and I believe food may be properly described as a munition of war. It is right and just that those engaged in the manufacture of guns, those who build ships and aeroplanes, those who supply clothing and general equipment, should be properly compensated for their contribution to the empire war effort, and this is being done. It is right and just also that the farmer, who is responsible for food production, should be properly rewarded for his contribution of knowledge, labour and financial investment. He is ready and eager to play his vital part in the general war effort, but for him to do so at fair rates of compensation will require *considerably higher prices for many farm products, and especially wheat, than those now prevailing. This objective is of real empire importance. For example, in 1935 through the wheat board the farmer was assured of at least 871 cents a bushel, basis Fort William. To-day, in the face of increased cost of production and a higher cost of living, for his 1939 wheat crop the farmer is assured of only 70 cents a bushel, basis Fort William. On the other hand a harvest binder cost the farmer $68.50 more in the fall of 1939 than it did in the fall of 1935.
At the present time we have a surplus of bacon in this country. It is disturbing to many farmers, whose sons have offered their lives to this dominion, to learn that the troops in training in Canada are being fed bacon imported from the country to the south. The acreage bonus scheme, while probably a step in the right direction, along the line of crop insurance, has been perhaps the most unsatisfactorily administered act in Canada, causing economic disturbance and hardship in many sections. Approximately one-third of the population of Canada is directly dependent upon agriculture for a livelihood, yet those people receive only approximately one-twelfth of the industrial income of Canada.
On the declaration of war last September the militia council had ready a plan of mobilization, which was not accepted by the government. As the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Sinclair) so well stated at the opening of this session, we must ruthlessly mobilize our money, materials and manpower if we are to win this war and, I trust, to win the peace which will follow. In the mail to-day I received from the Boissevain and District Board of Trade a resolution addressed to the right hon. Prime Minister, reading as follows:
Whereas the members of this board of trade, assembled in general meeting at Boissevain in Manitoba, this 14th day of May, A.D. 1940,

view the recent developments in Europe with the deepest concern for the safety of our empire and for the preservation of the fredom of all peoples throughout the world;
And whereas it is apparent that Canada's participation in this war, to be effective, must be such that will place all our resources of men, money and materials at the disposal of England and her allies immediately and that our effort must be sustained at its highest pitch until victory has been won;
And whereas from the fact that recruiting has, up until now, been, and still appears to be, discouraged both for our land and air forces, every one of us being acquainted with young men whose offers of service have been rejected, and from the further fact that, in spite of very evident need for haste, our empire air training scheme is still only in its formative stage, it would appear that our war effort is as yet very ineffective and wholly inadequate and that unless something is done at once to invigorate and accelerate^ it our aid to Britain and her allies will arrive too late to be effective and our participation in the war will prove to be nothing but an idle gesture;
And whereas Canadians sincerely feel, and are openly saying that, after nine months of war nothing has yet been done by Canada, beyond her formal declaration of war, to make either the enemy or England and her allies, in any really effective degree, realize that she has entered the war as an enemy of Germany, and great dissatisfaction at this state of affairs is evident on every hand;
And whereas t the feeling of uneasiness over the apparent failure of our government to take vigorous measures to make Canada's participation in the war more apparent and more effective, after nine long months, has developed into a restiveness which is growing daily and is causing open and vigorous criticism of the government's war policy to the extent that Canadians of all walks of life are asserting that Canada's war effort is not intended to be a real one but only a gesture and that the government either cannot or will not make it anything else;
And whereas Canadians are determined that our contribution towards the defence of our empire and the cause of freedom shall be real and effective and active rather than chimerical and ineffective and passive, as to many Canadians it has been in the past and now appears to be;
And whereas there appear to be no effective steps being taken for the complete and effective control of all enemy aliens, and the suppression of subversive propaganda and the teaching of subversive doctrines within the country or for the adequate protection of our grain elevators, railway terminals, transportation systems and other resources vital to our whole-hearted and intensive prosecution of the war;
And whereas it is generally felt that no effective measures have as yet been taken towards the development of Canada's industrial and labour resources for the immediate maximum production of munitions and aeroplanes of which they are now capable and for the rapid expansion of that maximum to its very limit;
Therefore be it resolved that this board of trade forthwith memorialize the dominion government expressing the fears set forth in the

War Appropriation-Mr. White
premises and urging upon it a vast and immediate invigoration and expansion of its war effort programme in all its branches but particularly in control of enemy aliens and suppression of subversive elements within our borders, the organization of veterans and others for the purposes of home defence and protection of vital industries against sabotage, the development of our industrial and labour resources to their maximum efficiency for the production of munitions and aeroplanes, the carrying out of the air training scheme to a point where trained airmen are made, without any delay, available in large and ever increasing numbers and in recruiting and equipping and training division after division of troops to take their places at the front, and generally, in at once marshalling Canada's whole strength and all her resources to the end of immediately more vigorously and effectively assisting Great Britain and her allies in the prosecution of the war in which we are now jointly engaged.
Canada is rich and big and young and strong and vigorous and we Canadians now address a direct and urgent appeal to our government, in whose promises to effectively prosecute the war we showed such unbounded confidence and trust just a few short weeks ago, to lead us in taking to England and her allies immediately all the great help of which our strong young country is capable and of which she and they at this moment stand so greatly in need.
The Boissevain and District Board of Trade W. Y. Udall,
President.
A. J. Robbins,
Acting-Secretary.
Speaking at this time as a Britisher and a Canadian, with a full realization of the grave crisis now existing, and devoid of any partisan fefeling at the moment, may I say that my respect and sympathy are very much with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) in the tremendous task he has undertaken. My sympathies are also with the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) in these days of great national peril.
Of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) may I say that during this great and grave crisis in my opinion he does not inspire the confidence of the vast majority of people across Canada. May I repeat the words of Mr. David Lloyd George when recently addressing the Right Hon. Neville Chamberlain in the House of Commons at Westminster: "The greatest contribution you can make towards winning this war, Mr. Prime Minister, is for you to hand in your resignation."


William Alexander Fraser: Who said
so?


James Arthur Ross: I am quoting the words of Mr. David Lloyd George. In view of the news which has come recently from the motherland and in view of what has occurred in Canada, with all the feeling in my heart 95826-11
I appeal to our Prime Minister to prove himself the great and true Britisher that the Right Hon. Neville Chamberlain proved himself to be, and to hand over the reins of government to one having practical war experience. If he wishes to cooperate in the interests of his country, he should do likewise immediately.
This is not a time for political expediency-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


James Arthur Ross: -but rather a time for the whole-hearted cooperation of all members in the house. That cooperation was ably given by our leader, the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson), at the opening of this session.


Mr. G. S. WHITE (Hastings-Peterborough):: Mr. Speaker, as a new member in the House of Commons I realize fully my position in rising to take part in the debate. I agree most heartily with the observations just made by the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross). It seems strange that as soon as he mentioned the words "political expediency," there was immediate applause from the government benches.
It is not necessary to dwell on the seriousness of the hour, and I say to private members on the government benches that now is the time for them to show their loyalty.


An hon. MEMBER:: How?


George Stanley White: We of the opposition have duties to perform, too. We have the duty to our constituents who sent us here to reflect in the House of Commons their opinions and desires. It is not my intention in any way to rehash or go over the issues involved in the election for, after all, the past is gone. Whatever the mistakes have been, and whatever bad judgment has been shown, are of little importance at this time. The present and the future are our vital concern.
But even to-day can we, the members of the House of Commons, truly satisfy ourselves that, even at this important hour, the present government is making every possible war effort. Speaking for myself-and I say this with deep regret-I have absolutely no confidence that the government is capable of arousing even within its own ranks, let alone throughout the nation, the action and the speed necessary to cope with the daily increasing threat to our very existence. This hour calls for inspiring leadership, for complete harmony and unity, for the thrusting aside of petty and insignificant matters and of forgetting all past differences so that we, the elected members, may in the brief time remaining at our disposal mobilize with lightning speed all our resources for the defence of Canada.

War Appropriation-Mr. White

The press of yesterday and to-day which mentions names such as Arras, Vimy, the Somme and Abbeville, must recall stirring memories to the minds of many hon. members who were the veterans of another war, men who formed part of that glorious Canadian corps which served from 1914 to 1918, men who took part in writing a glorious page in history. These men will recall other dark days in March and April of 1918, and they will remember with pride the message that came from Sir Arthur Currie when he said: "We have our backs to the wall and we must fight it out". Everyone knows how the Canadian corps of that day met that challenge and how they fought it out. Once more we have our backs to the wall, and I am confident that once more we will meet the challenge and fight it out.
I represent the counties of Hastings and Peterborough. To-day we have in England with the first division the Hastings and Prince Edward regiment, one of the finest regiments that ever left these shores. It is simply disgraceful that so little is being done in the way of recruiting in these counties which made such a wonderful contribution from 1914 to 1918 in men, munitions and supplies. I wonder if the members of this house realize that in Ontario east of Toronto there is only one rifle infantry regiment, and that in all that area there is only one place where a man may enlist in such a regiment. That point is at Picton, a most inconvenient place. That is in the riding of my hon. friend (Mr. Tustin), but I said "most inconvenient", not "most insignificant".
At the present time recruiting at this point may be carried on for a week, and then the office is closed down. It may interest hon. members to know that there has been no recruiting at this point, the only recruiting depot east of Toronto, since May 11, and the depot is still closed. Any man who wants to enlist in a rifle regiment must, if he resides east of Toronto, travel or hitch-hike hundreds of miles to Picton, and then when he arrives there he may find there is no recruiting and be told to come back the following week. In many instances the man's name is taken and he is told he will be advised when recruiting will begin again. Is it the policy of this government at the present time to have only one place where a man may enlist in an area covering hundreds of square miles east of the city of Toronto?
In my riding there are hundreds of young Canadians who have been trying for months to join the Royal Air Force, and the best they have been able to accomplish is to have their names taken and be told that they will
[Mr. White.!
be advised at a later date. There is no action which the government has taken which has so discouraged the young men of Canada more than this action in regard to recruiting. In the small village of Madoc in which I reside there is an armoury in which from three to 500 men could be trained. That armoury has been locked up since October 1, 1939. In that armoury there is not a single rifle, a single round of ammunition, a single machine gun or any equipment or war supplies of any kind. All the equipment consists of is two dozen chairs and a few tables. Why? Because the equipment which had been there for years and which had been brought home in 1918 was used to equip the Hastings and Prince Edward regiment. That regiment took this antique equipment back to England.
In the village of Norwood in my riding, there is another armouiy in which 500 men could be trained. That armoury has also been locked up since the beginning of the war and contains no rifles or equipment of any kind. In Peterborough and Belleville are located two of the finest armouries in Ontario, but they have not been used in any way. I ask -the government, why are they not taking advantage of these buildings? Why does this condition exist? It certainly is not because of a lack of recruits, because recruits can be had at any time.
It is not because of a lack of capable officers. In the small village of only 1,000 people in which I reside there are ten qualified officers, five of whom have had overseas training. All these officers have been connected for years with the non-permanent militia and are well qualified to drill troops, instruct and lecture in signalling practice, bayonet fighting and gas warfare, as well as machine-gun practice, military tactics and military organization. In addition we have many non-commissioned officers who are fully trained and capable of performing all military duties. These officers and non-commissioned officers are most willing and anxious to give their services.
The manner in which this government has conducted recruiting has convinced me more than anything else that the public have no confidence whatever in the present war effort. From the press we learn that various veterans' organizations have offered their services to the government, but- these services have not been accepted. Much has been said already in this house about "fifth column" activities. I was interested in the statement made a few days ago by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to the effect that all "fifth column" activities were being checked carefully and handled by the mounted police.

War Appropriation-Mr. Graydon
I should like to bring to the attention of this house a most serious condition which exists in the county of Hastings. In that county there are about fifty-five miles of a power line which runs from the Gatineau to Leaside, about thirty-five miles of which run through a most sparsely settled section of the county. Yet there is not one guard of any kind to protect this line. There are no soldiers within a radius of 100 miles. The provincial hydro commission has a maintenance man who patrols a beat of thirty-nine miles. Can hon. members grasp that? One man patrolling a beat of thirty-nine miles! That is all the protection there is for this vital power line.
It would be the simplest matter in the world for one man to wreck the whole system. I am told that if this line were wrecked, at least two-thirds of Toronto and a large portion of eastern and western Ontario would be without power or light. Within the last month a foreigner was charged in the police court at Marmora with removing brace arms from these hydro towers. When addressing the court at the conclusion of the evidence, the crown attorney said to the magistrate that this was a direct case of sabotage. And yet no action has been taken by anyone to protect or guard this highly vulnerable power line. I might explain to members of the house that the method of sabotaging these towers is to remove certain braces and cross-arms, or to saw partly through certain girders and then leave the rest to nature, so that at the first storm or strong wind the towers will be completely wrecked. Throughout these two counties there are many mines of great importance in war time and many important industrial works, and yet there is not a single guard of any kind.
The huge sum of money which is being asked for by this resolution should be spent within the Dominion of Canada. So far as the amount itself is concerned it is of little importance because what does it matter what amount we spend to-day if we are in danger of losing our freedom and all the privileges we have enjoyed under the British crown, if we are in danger of being reduced to actual slavery? In these circumstances the amount matters little.
Like my hon. friend the member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), I am going to make a few suggestions to the government:
1.	That all militia units throughout Canada be recruited to full strength at once, and if clothing is not available, that arm bands be used.
2.	That with all speed all war equipment be manufactured and used to equip fully all overseas troops; then huge stores of same be set up in Canada.
3.	That a home defence corps be organized and trained.
4.	That the cadet units of high schools and collegiates be used in any possible manner, such as for instruction and organization purposes.
5.	That provision be made by counties or districts for the protection and guarding against sabotage of all vital industries, public utilities and military objectives within such county or district.
6.	That all armouries now locked up or partly used be utilized to the full degree.
7.	That the services of all war veterans be used for training and guard duties.
8.	Registration of all man-power and other resources.
9.	Immediate internment of all aliens and enemy sympathizers. That a local tribunal be set up in each county or district under the local county judge to deal with internment, so that this can be carried out with speed and efficiency.
10.	That the government consider what steps can be taken to control the broadcasting of enemy propaganda from American stations.
11.	That the government consider the passing of measures to provide the death penalty for espionage, sabotage or "fifth column" activities.
And lastly, that in the grave situation to-day the government consider invoking the provisions of the Militia Act, which provides for the calling-up of all able-bodied men for home defence.


Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: Mr. Speakei, the house to-day is in a very serious, very sober and perhaps I might add, a very militant mood. None of us has witnessed in our time in this house members more bent upon determined and aggressive action by the government than we find them in this chamber to-day, and in that they but reflect the opinions which are being so audibly expressed by the people of the country who are now thoroughly aroused and fully conscious of the import of the present emergency Words seem so futile in these days. Routine parliamentary proceedings seem so lamentably out of place. Debates seem so irksome in the face of recent developments which are so vital to the very existence of our nation and of our empire.
The government has asked us to forget the past, with its pathway strewn with examples of what many of our citizens regard as instances of puny and inadequate preparedness. But few, Mr. Speaker, will be able to erase it from memory. This afternoon, however, I think it is the sole duty of the House

War Appropriation-Mr. Gray don
of Commons to take the government at their word and to forget the past, because it is our duty to press by every means within our power the administration into a more aggressive and a more determined prosecution of the war both on our home front and on the front overseas. To-day only the present and the future count, and both of them count very heavily.
I now propose to make certain insistent proposals to the government. My words will be few, but I trust they will be emphatic. They are made in the spirit of a united Canada which has its mind made up that the empire must and will march on to ultimate victory in this conflict. Stripped of all unnecessary words, I have the following to propose.
First, that the preservation of the Liberal party, of the Conservative party or of any other party in this house, is of small consequence. Regarded as a political entity the fate of no party is of any consequence to-day when forces from without our frontiers threaten to destroy the very democracy upon which *our parties operate. National government-
I know I am not going to have the support of every member of this house when I say this-was desirable in my opinion last September when war broke out, and it has become more desirable in every month which has followed the declaration of war right down to this date. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, it is now the only answer to our urgent national needs.
Second, no man and no woman in Canada should be without his or her place in our national war plans. Our people are crying out loudly to-day for an opportunity to serve Canada and serve the empire in her day of need. Continuing unemployment in time of war has seemed to me during these past months not only to be unnatural but to present a farcical situation in our land. In this country the wheels of industry should have been humming twenty-four hours a day and not a man should have been out of work since the war began. We have not all realized, Mr. Speaker, that we are at war, and it was the government's obligation to give us the lead so that we might as a nation be more fully conscious of our exact position. Every Canadian must now put his or her shoulder to the wheel without a moment's further delay.
Third, let us look more intently to our home defence as well as to our overseas plans. There is a definite and immediate duty resting on us to protect our people, our homes and our industries against "fifth column," [DOT]"Trojan horse," and sabotage operations with-

in our own borders. The citizens at large, and particularly the men who served so gallantly in the last war, are demanding to-day, in terms the urgency of which I have never in my life known to be equalled, that the government of this country give them their place in plans to render impotent any "boring" operations which may be conducted by enemy sympathizers within our gates.
Fourth, the contribution of Canada towards the maintenance of universal freedom and liberty must be more than merely a war effort. I confess I never liked that word "effort." It sounds too much like an attempt being made at something. There must be, from this moment, a determined, aggressive and ceaseless hurling of every ounce of energy which we as a nation can muster; for nothing less than the best we can do is good enough for Canada, as a nation and a part of the British commonwealth of nations, in this hour of national and empire trial.
In conclusion may I say that I am deadly in earnest. I speak with a deeper feeling than has permeated me in any address I have given this house these past five years. I plead with the government for a yet more vigorous prosecution of its war plans. This is the time for public and personal sacrifice on the part of everyone of us. The day of thinking in terms of political parties, of personal convenience and of selfish ambitions has gone. The hour is far too serious for that. With that thought foremost in my mind, I urge with all the emphasis at my command, that the Prime Minister and his government abandon now their one-party administration of this war-I never liked it. I like it less this afternoon-and, following Britain's lead, give Canadians new confidence in this hour of trial and need, and unite our political forces to form a strong reorganized coalition government.


Mr. LIGUORI LACOMBE (Laval-Two Mountains) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, I
have listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks made by the hon. member (Mr. Graydon) who has just resumed his seat. I regret to say, however, that my opinions do not at all coincide with his. Having no intention of prolonging the present debate, I shall be brief.	_
Canada's participation in the war is and must remain free and voluntary. Such is the wish of the people of this country, a wish that was indeed most clearly expressed last March 26, as regards our war effort and the nature thereof. Never before has a government been endorsed to a similar degree by the electorate. The right hon. the Prime Minister (Mr. MAY 23, 1940
War Appropriation-Mr. Lacombe
Mackenzie King) won an unprecedented victory, and the Canadian people returned him to power because they realized that he and his government stood for a policy of moderation, freedom and voluntary assistance. Thus must we consider these three ideas as a synthesis of the returned government's election programme, not to mention the preservation of Canadian unity. That unity must be safeguarded at all cost, in the name of liberty, justice and right. The ultimate victory of the allies depends largely upon the preservation of national unity in democratic countries, as well as upon the union of all hearts and minds toward the realization of the powerful and inspiring ideal represented by the victory of right over might.
If ever any government should endeavour to impose conscription on this country, it would find itself opposed by every true champion of Canadian unity.
The bloody conflict of which unfortunate Europe is once again the theatre is but a page, the most harrowing and darkest perhaps, of the troubled history of heroic and noble France whose soil has withstood time and again the invasion of barbaric hordes. On behalf of the motherland, the allied armies are desperately striving to triumph over injustice and barbarism. Every man worthy of the name most strongly desires to see the forces of liberty and civilization decisively victorious over anarchy, tyranny and barbarism. Gigantic struggle, wherein the very survival of a civilization ennobled by centuries of sacrifice and genius is at stake. Alarming fray, wherein the terrifying roar of motorized columns will never blot out the agony of the heroic dead, whose lips still frame the glorious words of victory and peace!
Mr. Speaker, while England and France are far advanced on the path of sacrifice, Canada, notwithstanding the opinions expressed by some hon. members, has done and is still doing her important share. According to the right hon. Prime Minister's recent statement, Canada's participation in the war will cost her, for the financial year 1940-41, the sum of $2,000,000 a day. Should this fail to satisfy the extremists, I wonder if we are not entitled in turn to suspect their loyalty to Canada. Do they believe that a bankrupt Canada would be of use to the allied cause? Have they given a moment's thought to the after-war period? Have they ever considered our financial and economic position? Does the agriculture and labour problem mean nothing to them?
Mr. Speaker, even in this difficult hour, let us not deceive ourselves. Let us not allow
ourselves to be carried away. Let us keep calm so that we may consider with wisdom and moderation Canada's interest before all others.
I mentioned the agricultural problem. The day is not far when the allied armies and countries will turn to Canada for their food supplies. We should therefore speed up still further the reorganization of our agricultural production in all its branches. The rising cost of living makes it imperative for governments to give all possible aid to agriculture. Our whole economic structure is based on agriculture. More than ever, in this extremely critical situation, should we encourage, develop and promote agricultural production.
In closing these few remarks, I am happy to say that I still look at the future with optimism. It is through optimism, hope and faith that truth will triumph over error, right over might, civilization over barbarism and justice over tyranny.
One word in conclusion. In her participation in the war, may Canada keep from excessive zeal and waste. May our lawmakers ever keep engraved in their minds and in their hearts the image of the Canadian fatherland. May the soil of our country continue to be the granary of the world and the almost inexhaustible source of the natural wealth of which the need is at present so great. May our land continue, under the kindly eye of an admirable Providence, to spread life, fecundity and happiness among the peoples of the world, but especially in Canada, our beloved country, so badly in need of them.
The speech from the throne ends at every session of parliament with the words: "I pray that Divine Providence may guide and bless your deliberations." If there was ever a time when legislators needed light and strength, it is the present difficult moment when the fate of the continent of Europe and the economic future of Canada seem to be at stake. May God preserve Canada from downfall and ruin! May He keep our beloved Canada united, great and prosperous! May He allow the triumph of civilization over the forces which barbarism has let loose upon the world.



MAIN ESTIMATES, 1940-41

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Administrator transmitting estimates for the financial year ending March 31, 1941, was presented by Hon. J. L. Ralston (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
[Stage Direction]
War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Ralston that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That sums not _ exceeding $700,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses that may be incurred by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada;
(c)	promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever; and
(d)	the carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or advisable by the governor in council in consequence of the existence of a state of war.
_ With provision also empowering the governor in council to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, such sum or sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of $700,000,000 as may be required for the purpose of defraying the aforesaid expenses, the principal and interest of any 6uch loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, as was stated this afternoon, it is most difficult to proceed to a .discussion of past events and present and future possibilities in connection with agriculture in Canada when the war news is of the kind reported to the house to-day. Perhaps the chief reason why we are able to carry on this discussion may be found in the history of Great Britain; and our knowledge of the fact that on at least three previous occasions the dogged determination of Britain to preserve her institutions for succeeding generations has triumphed, leads us to believe that again she will find a way. The destruction of the Spanish armada; the defeat of Napoleon, and the final triumph of the allies over WTilhelm II in the last war all give testimony to sustain the hope, which becomes faith, in the success of Britain in the final outcome of the present war. So it becomes my task to outline to the house the effect that preparation for war and the coming of war has had upon agriculture in Canada; to outline the efforts made to meet pre-war difficulties as well as those made to meet the immediate difficulties brought by war. In order that I may place the records correctly and completely upon Hansard I hope
(Mr. Lacombe.]
you will bear with me, Mr. Speaker, if I follow rather closely the notes I have prepared.
A world war is always preceded by a period of preparation, and hence a period of war fear, the effects of which are first felt by agriculture. When a nation begins to make preparation to go to war, one of the first considerations is food, which is produced almost exclusively by farmers. If a country has, in time of peace, the essential food products within its boundaries, it is in a relatively strong position in preparing for war. If much of its food is, in time of peace, obtained from outside its boundaries, that country must do one of two things, or a combination of two things, in preparation for war; it must either increase its production at home or protect its trade routes to countries from which the food can be obtained, or do both.
The three countries which have been making the greatest preparations for war during the last ten years are Germany, France and Britain. Over fifteen years ago Germany began to prepare for war. Her endeavour was to have the necessary food products within her own boundaries when war came. France looked on for a few years and then, fearing that when Germany became strong her desire for revenge might turn her attentions westward, more than ten years ago turned her attention to food production within her own borders. Britain did not take action in this direction until about eight years ago, but during the past six years has been employing many of the devices used by the others to increase the production of food within her own borders. Canadian farmers in the past had been accustomed to sell the greater part of their surplus farm products in the three countries I have mentioned and in the United States. To the extent that these three countries increased their production of meat, cereals, dairy products, poultry and fruit, the three great branches of agriculture in this country were bound to suffer.
The net result has been that during the greater part of the last ten years prices of farm products in Canada have been abnormally low. I think I would be safe in saying that for the ten year period from 1931 to 1940, prices of farm products reached an alltime low, if all the factors of relative values were taken into consideration. My contention, therefore, is that the Canadian farmer entered into this war under very unfavourable circumstances, largely because those countries now at war have been preparing for it for a period of years. To emphasize the point I am trying to make I should like to give this record of the prices during the five years pre-

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
ceding the last war, the five years of the last war and the five years preceding the present war, on the five products of greatest export. These prices are for the best grade at Toronto for all products with the exception of wheat, and for No. 1 northern at Fort William for wheat.
1910-1914	1915-1919	1935-1939(Aver-	(Aver-	(Aver-age)	age)	age)Cents	Cents	CentsWheat	100-6	205-4	100-2Cheese	13-24	22-06	12-99Hogs	8-88	14-96	8-98Cattle	6-77	10-36	6-46Apples (Barrel)	461-0	683-0	582-0
From this table it will be seen that the prices f r the five years preceding this war are almost exactly the same as they were for the five years preceding the last war. It will be acknowledged, however, that the purchasing power of the dollar has been lower during the last five year period. Fear of war and preparation for it have been the underlying cause of economic difficulties in Canada as well as in other countries, more particularly as related to agriculture.
Before going on to deal with the situation ereated by the war, it might be well for me to deal shortly with our experience of prices in the last war. There was an increase in prices during the last war as compared with the previous five year period, of approximately 50 per cent on apples, 60 per cent on cattle, 75 per cent on hogs, 60 per cent on cheese and 100 per cent on wheat. It is well to recall, however, that there was no unusual increase in the prices of any of these products until the war had been going on for two full years. In the second year of the last war wheat averaged SI.13 a bushel; cheese, 16-4 cents a
Wheat, bushels	
Oats, bushels	
Barley, bushels	
Rye, bushels	
Flaxseed, bushels	
Hogs, numbers	
Cattle, numbers	
Calves, numbers	
Sheep and lambs, numbers
Butter, pounds	
Cheese, pounds	
Tobacco, pounds	
Apples, barrels	
Honey, pounds	
pound; hogs, 8-5 cents a pound; cattle, 8-04 cents a pound; and apples, $4.96 a barrel. I think there are two principal reasons why prices of food products do not rise in the first year of a war. The first reason is that countries preparing for war store food in many forms. The second reason is that often war does not interfere with the increased production of food in the combating countries during the first year. These increases in production which take place preceding a war are usually encouraged at points safest from destruction by marching armies. After war has been under way for a year and armies move across areas of production, demands become greater for the surpluses of countries far removed.
The detrimental effects of war preparation and of war itself upon farm prices has been accentuated by the fact that when war broke out, Canadian farmers were harvesting the second largest wheat crop on record. Heavy fall marketing of hogs and poultry was in prospect. Butter and cheese production was at a higher level than in the year previous. Apple and other fruit crops, as well as vegetable crops, were normal in yield. A record tobacco crop was expected. The production was higher for 1939 than the five-year average in every important farm product used for food except mutton, lamb and honey.
I should like to place on Hansard a table comparing the production of crops and the output of live stock in 1939, with the previous five-year average. May I have the consent of the house?


Georges Parent: Consent is granted.


James Garfield Gardiner: Average
1939	previous 5 years
489,623,000	263,444,000
384,407,000	325,414,000
103,147,000	81,001,000
15,307,000	7,070,400
2,169,000	1,265,800
3,706,179	3,403.048
1,183,305	1,151,444
795,402	691,050
753,062	802,056
266.879.000	248,128,000
120,976,000	114,166,000
109,846,000	62,762,000
5,468,400	4,700,520
28,856,100	29,387,000
Farm prices just prior to the outbreak of the war were at a very low level, and indications at that time pointed to a low net return to farmers, despite bountiful yields, even had there been no war. The immediate effect of the war was a rise in grain and live stock prices and later an increase in prices of
dairy products. In August, 1939, the index of the wholesale prices of farm products stood at 58-4, as compared with 72-4 for all commodities. By March, 1940, the farm products index had risen by 12-9 points to 71-3, as compared with a rise of 10-8 points in the general index to a total of 83-2.

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
The following figures will cultural products:
indicate the monthly change in the prices of the main agri-
Wheat
Oats
Barley
Rye
Flaxseed
In
Store
Fort
William
Butter, Mont. c. lb. Cheese, Mont. c. lb. Eggs, Mont. c. doz.
Aug.	Sept.	Oct.	Nov.	Dec.	Jan.	Feb.	Mar.	Apr.1939	1939	1939	1939	1939	1940	1940	1940	1940c. bus.	54.9	73.9	70.3	70.5	82.4	82.8	83.8	87.0	89.2c. bus.	27.3	36.7	32.8	32.3	38.8	42.6	41.7	38.7	38.4c. bus.	32.3	45.3	42.0	41.5	47.3	49.0	49.9	48.7	50.0c. bus.	37.6	56.5	60.4	56.8	72.3	74.8	71.6	70.6	69.8c. bus.	130.0	166.0	167.9	158.3	177.0	193.7	191.9	204.2	223.6cwt. ..	6.37	7.30	7.19	7.27	7.48	7.47	7.17	7.23	7.17cwt. ..	7.85	8.60	8.57	8.73	8.94	9.07	9.00	9.03	8.5521.5	26.2	27.8	28.2	28.0	27.7	26.8	27.6	26.311.2	13.0	14.1	16.0	17.0	18.7	19.3	17.2	14.531.8	37.6	41.5	44.4	33.9	27.0	26.8	27.0	
Very shortly after the war commenced, it became evident that the United Kingdom did not require some of our farm products. It was indicated that bacon, cheese and fibre flax would be needed, but there was some doubt about fresh fruit, tobacco and canned goods. Great Britain's purchasing programme is not only based upon her needs, but likewise influenced by the availability of exchange and shipping space, as well as by political and economic considerations, some of which were mentioned by one hon. member, I believe, this afternoon.
Before the war came, the government had reorganized the Department of Agriculture into four divisions, with a director over each division. And I may say, Mr. Speaker, that this was done in spite of the fact that it was not advisable at that time to suggest that it had any relationship with war. It was done because this government realized, as a result of the experiences we were having in the British market, that something very unusual was going on in the continent of Europe. It was done, too, as a result of an action taken by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) which had some relationship to myself, as Minister of Agriculture, in the spring of 1936, when he said to me that he desired me to go to Great Britain and to Europe. When I asked him why, he replied, "No one can administer the Department of Agriculture in the Dominion of Canada, a country producing the large surpluses we produce for marketing in Great Britain or on the continent, without having an intimate knowledge of what is going on both in Great Britain and on the continent."
I repeat that as a result of the experience gained at that time we reorganized the department and changed it from a department composed of a dozen or more branches to a department organized under four directors, a deputy minister and an assistant deputy minister. The day war was declared, the principal officers of the department were called together to discuss the part to be played by agriculture in war activity. An agricultural supplies board
rMr. Gardiner.]
composed of six members, four of whom were the four directors I have just mentioned, was established. The board, together with the department, commenced immediately to deal with agricultural situations arising out of the war. Cooperation with provincial authorities, with advisory boards and with other dominion government bodies was sought from the beginning, to accomplish the following things:
1.	To establish constructive direction for agricultural production;
2.	To make available for export those commodities required by Great Britain;
3.	To conserve essential supplies such as feeding materials, insecticides and fertilizers needed to meet the production of farm products in Canada, and
4.	To assist in the marketing of surplus farm products.
Because it has been stated on a number of occasions outside the house that information and direction have not been given to those associated with agriculture, I desire to take some time to outline what has been done by the board under the direction of the department. A conference between the agricultural supplies board and representatives of the provincial departments of agriculture was held at Ottawa on September 27 and 28, 1939. At that conference Great Britain's probable needs of Canadian farm products were outlined and stress laid on so planning war-time activities that the agricultural industry should not be thrown out of gear when the war ended. Papers were presented by various officials indicating, commodity by commodity, the Canadian situation in 1939 as compared with that in 1914 with regard to available and prospective supplies of farm products likely to be needed. At the close of that conference provincial delegates agreed to cooperate in work undertaken by the board, as the central directive agency, and undertook the responsibility, in cooperation with producer representatives and dominion field men in their respective provinces, of implementing such production programmes as might become necessary.

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
Following the conference most of the provinces established special committees to collaborate with the board and to give local direction to programmes undertaken. Provinces reporting the establishment of such committees follow:	.
Prince Edward Island, production service committee, October 5;
Nova Scotia, agricultural advisory committee, October 6;
New Brunswick, agricultural supplies committee, November, 17;
Manitoba, war-time agricultural committee, March, 1940;
Saskatchewan, provincial swine committee, November 15;
Alberta, agricultural production committee and swine production committee, November 14; crops production committee, December 9;
British Columbia, agricultural production committee, November 15.
Due perhaps to the close contact with dominion organizations made possible by their proximity to Ottawa, Quebec and Ontario apparently thought it unnecessary to establish special committees to collaborate with the board. There has been, however, continuous communication between the board and existing organizations in these provinces with respect to specific activities. If the house will permit, I shall be pleased to place the full personnel of those committees on Hansard for the information of hon. members:
Personnel Agricultural Supplies Board Establishment of board
The Agricultural Supplies Board was established September 9, 1939 (P.C. 2621), with the following named as members (P.C.	2622):
A. M. Shaw (Chairman), R. S. Hamer (later appointed Vice-Chairman), E. S. Archibald, G. B. Rothwell, A. T. Charron, J. M. Swaine, with Dr. H. Barton, Deputy Minister of Agriculture, a member ex officio. Following the death of G. B. Rothwell, on December 3, 1939, J. M. McCallum was appointed in his place, while J. G. Bouchard was named to replace A. T. Charron upon the latter's retirement on March 9, 1940. On September 27, 1939 (P.C. 2893), S. R. N. Hodgins was appointed Secretary. Or. November 17, 1939, J. R. Peet "on loan" from the marketing service, was named assistant secretary.
Special Committees
To assist in carrying out its duties, the Agricultural Supplies Board has established the following special committees:
September 22, 1939-Seed Supply Committee, consisting of N. Young (Chairman), T. M. Stevenson, W. T. G. Weiner, L. H. Newman, C. Sweet, L. S. McLaine; Secretary, A. M. W. Carter.
September 22, 1939-Fertilizer Supply Committee, consisting of G. S. Peart (Chairman), L. W. Wright, E. S. Hopkins, G. D. Mallory, 95826-12
W. H. Losee (the latter two from the Department of Trade and Commerce); Secretary, A. M. W. Carter.
October 7, 1939-Pesticide Supply Committee, consisting of G. S. Peart (Chairman), Arthur Gibson, H. T. Gussow, A. G. Locliead, C. H. Robinson, E. A. Watson, L. S. McLaine, G. D. Mallory, W. H. Losee; Secretary, A. M. W. Carter.
October 25, 1939-National Apple Advisory Committee, consisting of R. L. Wheeler (Chairman), M. V. McGuire (British Columbia), G. H. Laird (Ontario), W. G. Tawse (Quebec), F. W. Walsh (Nova Scotia); Secretary, L. F. Burrows.
Provincial Coommittees
Prince Edward Island-Production Service Committee, consisting of Hon. W. H. Dennis, Minister of Agriculture (Honorary Chairman), J. J. MacDonald, President of the Dairymen's Association (President), W. R. Shaw, Deputy Minister of Agriculture (Secretary, W. J. Reid, President of the Livestock Marketing Board, J. W. Boulter, Secretary of the Potato Growers' Association, Dr. J. A. Clarke, Superintendent of the Experimental Farm, F. M. Nash, Director, Poultry Division, Gordon MacMillan, Federal Seed Branch, J. A. Gillies, Secretary of the Livestock Marketing Board, Leonard MacDonald, Manager of the Egg and Poultry Association, W. D. Ross, Secretary of the Central Farmers' Institutes, W. L. Brenton, Superintendent of the Dairymen's Association,
S.	C. Wright, Fieldman, Department of Agriculture, P. A. Maclsaac, President of the Swine Breeders' Association, S. D. Irvine, Sheep and Swine Division, L. K. Lockerby, Fieldman, Department of Agriculture, E. L. Eaton, Supervisor, Illustration Stations, Dr. E. S. Notting, Health of Animals Branch.
Nova Scotia-Agricultural Advisory Committee, consisting of Hon. John A. McDonald, Minister of Agriculture, Dr. W. V. Longley, Director of Extension, Principal L. T. Chapman, Dr. W. S. Blair, Secretary of the Nova Scotia Farmers' Association, Mr. W. W. Baird, Superintendent of the Dominion Experimental Farm, Nappan, Mr. J. F. Haggerty, Senior Poultry Fieldman with the Federal Department, Mr. F. W. Walsh, Director of Marketing.
New Brunswick-Agricultural Supplies Committee, consisting of J. K. King, Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Fredericton (Chairman),
T.	G. Hetherington, Director Extension Division, Provincial Department of Agriculture, Fredericton, C. F. Bailey, Superintendent Experimental Station, Fredericton, representing Dominion Department of Agriculture officials in New Brunswick, one representative from the Farmers' Association of New Brunswick, to be designated "by the executive of this association, George Stephenson, Maugervill, Sun. Co., N.B., representing the New Brunswick Dairymen's Association, Roy Grant, Secretary Maritime Chamber of Agriculture, Moncton, F. L. Wood, Poultry Superintendent, Provincial Department of Agriculture, Fredericton, (Secretary).
Manitoba-War-Time Agricultural Committee, consisting of Hon. John Bracken, Premier of Manitoba, (honorary member), Hon. D. L. Campbell, Minister of Agriculture, (honorary member), D. G. McKenzie, Vice-president, United Grain Growers. Ltd.. Paul F. Bredt, President, Manitoba Pool Elevators, Ltd., Dr. J. A. Munn. President. Manitoba Federation of



War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
Agriculture, Fred H. Downing, Manager, Canadian Livestock Co-operative (Western) Limited, Cecil Lamont, Director, Public Relations Department, North-West Line Elevators Association, W. S. Patterson. President, Manitoba Co-operative Poultry Marketing Association Limited, W. F. Popple. Manager. Manitoba Co-operative Wholesale, Ltd., G. W. Tovell, Secretary-Treasurer, Manitoba Co-operative Dairies, Limited, J. W. Braithwaite, President, Manitoba Co-operative Honey Producers, Limited, Rev. A. H. Laurin, President, Manitoba Beekeepers' Association, Roy McPhail, Manager, Canadian Livestock Sales Agencies. N. C. Mac-Kay, Director, Extension Service. Manitoba Department of Agriculture. W. H. French, Past President. Union of Manitoba Municipalities, C. B. Davidson, Secretary, Manitoba Federation of Agriculture, Mrs. E._L. Johnson, Vice-President. Manitoba Federation of Agriculture, Mrs. W. H. Hicks, President, Manitoba Women's Institutes. John Spalding, Secretary. Union of Manitoba Municipalities. Dr. W. H. Tulloch-Lee. President, Agricultural Societies' Advisory Board, W. L. McGregor, President, Manitoba Horse Breeders' Association. Rev. Adelard Coulture. Director of Social Organization for Diocese of St. Boniface, Alex McPhail, President. Manitoba Swine Breeders' Association, R. B. Hunter. President. Manitoba Sheep Breeders' Association, J. E. Crawford, President, Manitoba Dairy Cattle Breeders' Association. Les. Robson. President. Manitoba Cattle Breeders' Association. Andrew Turkeivich. Farmer, Winnipeg Beach, Dr. H. C. Grant, Professor of Economics. University of Manitoba, Dr. E. Cora Hind, Editorial Writer of the Winnipeg Free Press, Axel Bergkvist, Farmer, Sanford, Mrs. M. G. Ellis, Agricultural Editor, Family Herald and Weekly Star, Paul Kwiat-kowski, Farmer, Tolstoi, R. D. Colquette, Joint Editor, The Country Guide and Nor'-West Farmer. W. D. Strang. President, Dauphin Agricultural Society, Rev. A. Benoit, Parish Priest of St. Malo. Prof. A. V. Mitchener, Dean of Agriculture and Home Economies, University of Manitoba. J. T. Hull, Manitoba Editor of the Western Producer, Neil Wright, Director, Manitoba Federation of Agriculture, Dr. Kenneth Neatby, Director of Agricultural Department, Northwest Line Elevators Association, J. J. Siemens, Farmer, Altona.
Saskatchewan-Provincial Swine Committee, consisting of E. G. Harlton. President, Sask. Swine Breeders, W. B. Weightman, Vicepresident. Sask. Swine Breeders. E. F. Richardson. Director. Sask. Swine Breeders, C. M. Learmonth, Superintendent of Institutional Farms, J. H. Coles, Senior Livestock Fieldman, Production Service, J. G. Robertson, Sask. Livestock Commissioner. A. D. Munro, Dominion Markets Representative, E. E. Broclcelbank, Extension Dept. University of Sask., Prof. J. W. G. MacEwan, Professor of Animal Husbandry, University of Saskatchewan, A. H. 0. Colbert, Experimental Farm, Rosthern.
Alberta-Agricultural Production Committee, consisting of F. II. Reed, Superintendent of the Experimental Farm, Lacombe, representing Dominion Department of Agriculture agencies in the province of Alberta, Dean E. A. Howes, representing the University of Alberta, 0. S. Longman. Field Crops Commissioner, A. A. Campbell. Acting Live Stock Commissioner, R. M. Putnam, Director, Agricultural Extension (Secretary). J. R. Sweeney. Deputy Minister of Agriculture (Chairman).
fMr. Gardiner.]
Swine Production Committee, consisting of
N.	Curtis, representing the Production Service, Dominion Department of Agriculture. Dr. R. D. Sinclair, University of Alberta, Prof. J. P. Sackville, University of Alberta, H. E. Wilson, Dominion Experimental Farm, Lacombe. Roy Marler. Swine Breeder, Bremner. William Hudson, Swine Breeder, Kathryn, Dr. P. R. Talbot, Provincial Veterinarian, A. A. Campbell, Acting Live Stock Commissioner, J. R. Sweeney, Deputy Minister of Agriculture.
Crops Production Committee, consisting of
O.	S. Longman, Field Crops Commissioner, Department of Agriculture, (Chairman), Frank Foulds, District Supervisor, Plant Products Division, Dominion Department of Agriculture, Calgary, Dr. K. W. Neatby, Professor, Field Crops Department, University of Alberta. A. Craig Pierce, Farmer, Drumheller, L. C. Anderson, Farmer, Bittern Lake, Milton McKeen, Farmer, Sangudo.
British Columbia-Agricultural Production Committee, consisting of J. B. Munro, (Chairman), J. A. Grant, Markets Commissioner, Geo. H. Stewart, Statistician, Ernest MacGinnis, (Secretary).
Bacon Board-Appointed December 20, 1939 (P.C. 4249), consisting of Hon. J. G. Taggart, Minister of Agriculture for Saskatchewan, (Chairman), S. E. Todd, Secretary Industrial and Development Council of Canadian Meat Packers, L. C. McQuat, General Agricultural Agent for C.P.R., Adrien Morin, Chief, Live Stock Branch, Quebec Department of Agriculture, L. W. Pearsall, Dominion Department of Agriculture, Secretary-Manager.
Bacon Advisory Committee-Appointed December 20, 1939	(P.C. 4173), consisting of
William J. Reid, Charlottetown, P.E.I., H. Wilson, Charring Cross, Ontario, J. H. Tapley, Toronto, Ontario, K. N. M. Morrison, Barrie, Ontario, F. H. Downing, St. Boniface, Manitoba, John Burns, Calgary. Alberta, John Harrold, Namao, Alberta, Joseph Bisson, Montreal, Quebec.
Dairy Products Board-Appointed May 22, 1940 (P.C.	), consisting of J. F. Singleton,
Associate Director, Marketing Service, Dairy Products, Dominion Department of Agriculture, (Chairman); Joseph F. Desmarais, Montreal; .John Freeman, Montreal.
A glance at the membership of these provincial production committees will show that producer organizations are fully represented. This will likewise be found true of the national apple advisory committee set up under the agricultural supplies board, and of the advisory committee to the bacon board.
The farmers across Canada have been kept informed of developments through these various committees and organizations, as well as directly through agricultural representatives, newspapers and the radio. Plans are under way to hold another meeting with provincial officials in the near future. At this meeting the problems of disposing of this season's production of agricultural products will be discussed. Great Britain's needs for certain products may be greatly different in the months to come. No one knows how much our crops will yield this year. It is possible

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
that there may be a shortage in a certain line of production where a surplus existed a year earlier. Plans to cope with the many situations which may develop will be discussed at the coming conference. In keeping with the understanding reached at the conference, it was decided that the agricultural supplies board should serve as the central directive agency, giving leads based on the needs of the situation in Britain or Canada. The board suggested bacon-hog programmes for each province last October in the light of feed supplies and other factors.
In November seed conservation and utilization programmes were suggested to each province. These programmes, it may be added, were found acceptable and were put into effect by the provincial committees. In response to a request by the provincial delegates that the board keep them fully informed of its activities, seven monthly progress reports were issued by the board down to April 30, 1940, as well as a quarterly report at December 31, 1939, and a complete summary of activities to March 31, 1940. Beginning with the second monthly progress report, reports received from the provinces were appended so that the board became a clearing house for news, not only as between itself and the provinces but also between the various provinces themselves.
Up to April 30, Nova Scotia and Alberta had each sent in six progress reports, to accompany the reports of the board. Ontario had sent in three; New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and British Columbia had sent in two each, and Prince Edward Island had sent in one. No official progress reports have been received from Quebec and Manitoba although communications of other kinds have been received. The provinces have likewise been kept supplied with copies of orders in council and other documents relating to the work of the board, as well as with copies of press releases when such provided suggestions dealing with production matters. Through correspondence the board and the provincial officials likewise maintain contact.
In support of its production work the board issued forty-five different special pamphlets in its war-time production series, publishing them in large enough quantities to enable them to serve the needs of the provincial departments of agriculture. These pamphlets present in a short, practical form information of particular value in war time. The total printings of these pamphlets ran to 1,147,000 in English and 310.000 in French, or 1,457,000
95826-12J
in all. Five of the pamphlets have already had to be reprinted to meet the demand. Not only have considerable quantities been distributed by the provincial departments of agriculture, experimental farms and agricultural colleges, but as a result of radio publicity and notices in the press copy issued by the dominion department of agriculture, large numbers have gone directly to farmers requesting them.
The general public has been kept fully informed of the war activities of the Department of Agriculture through public addresses, through statements released to the press and agricultural papers and by means of radio. I am not going to take the time to read what has gone to the press itself, although I have a fairly complete summary of that. Much of what went to the press has appeared in the press from time to time. Use has been made of the department's farm broadcasts to keep farmers throughout Canada informed of the various aspects of the war effort, and to give out special news when necessary. As examples, one might mention the special statement issued over the air by the bacon board following the developments in Denmark early in April, the publicity given to the special pamphlets published by the agricultural supplies board as these became ready for distribution, and the three special messages broadcast this spring, to farmers in eastern Canada, suggesting measures which might be taken this year to make themselves more independent of purchased feeds.
Specific requests by the United Kingdom have been met for supplies of bacon, cheese, eggs, fibre flaxseed, and flax fibre and tow. The arrangements between the United Kingdom and Canada for these products either provided for a greater supply than has usually been exported from Canada or about the same supply as usual. Bacon and fibre flaxseed exports are larger than usual, while exports of cheese and eggs will be about the same. Restrictions have been placed by the United Kingdom on the importation of apples, tobacco and dressed poultry. Import licences for honey were withheld for a time. Imports of canned goods were not licensed until late in March, with the result that Canadian supplies were exported in large volumes. Mr. Speaker, I should like to be permitted to place upon Hansard a table showing the movement of Canadian farm produce to the United Kingdom this year as compared with the last two years. The table is as follows:

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
Exports to United Kingdom September to March inclusive
1939-40	1938-39	1937-38Wheat and flour	54,886,146	57,361,894	46,459,977Barley	3,079,771	8,212,950	8,737,3002,046,668	4,154,191	2,131,88557,143	44,298	54,873Bacon and hams	1,613,143	950,141	1,049,180Other pork	3,130	4,623	8,14613,525	74,115	118,013Dressed poultry	lb.	789,679	2.614,717	1,361,840903.240	1,129,888	1,336,5801.972	88,800	36,265539,411	459,136	459,4691.178,802	2,490,861	2,039,706lb.	24,375,945	8,978,215	8,820,647lb.	21,927,200	6,031,986	5,559,792Total canned fruits	lb.	54,13S,609	18,055,474	18,027,065Total canned vegetables	lb.	138,163,689	51,843,680	38,921.417Honey	lb.	5,057,319	3,133,437	1,809,868
For the immediate benefit of the house I will read one or two of the most important. In wheat and flour we exported to Great Britain in the months from September to March of this year a total of 54,886,000 bushels.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Are those months inclusive?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. In 1938-39 we
exported 57,360,000 bushels, and in 1937-38, which was a small crop year, we exported
46.459.000	bushels. It will be seen that exports during the months of this year compare very favourably with exports during the same months in the previous two years. Exports of barley are down to less than half, while exports of oats are down to about half what they were last year but are about the same as they were the year before. Exports of rye are about the same. Exports of bacon and ham totalled 1,613,000 hundredweight as against 950,000 hundredweight a year ago, and 1,049,000 hundredweight the year before that. Our exports this year were more than fifty per cent greater than they were during the same period last year.
Exports of eggs totalled 903,000 dozen as against 1,129,000 dozen last year and 1,300,000 dozen the year before. Exports of dressed poultry were down to about one-third of what they were last year, while exports of cheese were considerably higher than they were last year. Exports of apples were down from
2.490.000	barrels to 1,178,000 barrels, while exports of canned apples rose from 8,978,000 pounds to 24,000,000 pounds. I could continue to go through the list, but I have suggested that it be published in full in Hansard for the benefit of hon. members.


Mr. SENN:: Would the minister tell us
why those two months only were chosen?


James Garfield Gardiner: We have taken the
months from September to March inclusive, the months we have been at war. We have

compared the exports during this period with the exports in the previous years in order to indicate what change has occurred this year as compared with the other years as a result of the fact that we are at war.


Mark Cecil Senn: I understood the minister to
mention two months only, rather than six.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is the whole period
of the war from September to March inclusive. The Canadian government is directly concerned in the export of bacon, cheese, fibre flaxseed. Egg exports go through the normal trade channels. Government guidance was necessary in connection with the export of apples, poultry and tobacco in order to ensure that producers in all sections of the country received a fair share of the restricted market.
I should like to give the house the particulars with regard to the bacon agreement. Canadian bacon was requisitioned by the ministry of food in Great Britain from the first week of the war. Settlement was made with the packers' agents until the bacon board took control of shipments the week of January 20, 1940. The agreement provides for weekly shipments of 5,600,000 pounds until the end of October, 1940. A flat price of $20.18 per 112 pounds for grade A bacon, basis Canadian seaboard, is being paid by Great Britain, which is equal to $18.01 per 100 pounds of bacon.
The four members of the bacon board are leading men in the agricultural industry, all having broad administrative experience as well as a practical knowledge of farm operations. The advisory board is composed of men representing the producers and the bacon trade. One duty of the bacon board is to ensure that the supplies required for export will be available.


Mr. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: Would the minister give us the names of the representatives?

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner


James Garfield Gardiner: I was going to have that submitted in an appendix, but if it is preferred I can read the names now.


Arza Clair Casselman: Read them now.


James Garfield Gardiner: The bacon board, appointed December 20, 1939, consisted of Hon. J. G. Taggart, Minister of Agriculture for Saskatchewan, (Chairman); S E. Todd, Secretary, Industrial and Development Council of Canadian Meat Packers; L. C. McQuat, General Agricultural Agent for C.P.R.; Adrien Morin, Chief, Live Stock Branch, Quebec Department of Agriculture; L. W. Pearsall, Dominion Department of Agriculture, Secretary-Manager.
The bacon advisory committee, appointed December 20, 1939, consisted of William J. Reid, Charlottetown, P.E.I.; H. Wilson, Charring Cross, Ontario; J. H. Tapley, Toronto, Ontario; K. N. M. Morrison, Barrie, Ontario; F. H. Downing, St. Boniface, Manitoba; John Burns, Calgary, Alberta; John Harrold, Namao, Alberta; Joseph Bisson, Montreal, Quebec.


Mark Cecil Senn: Have all of these gentlemen or any of them been nominated by agricultural organizations, or were they the choice of the minister?


James Garfield Gardiner: Quite a number of them are not, of course, members of agricultural organizations. Mr. Downing I think was recommended by the cooperative organization in Manitoba. Mr. Harrold was chosen I think simply as a representative farmer actually producing hogs in the central part of Alberta, and Mr. Morrison of Barrie was chosen as the manager of the only farmers' cooperative packing plant in Canada. Mr. Reid was chosen I think by some group in Prince Edward Island, and the others were selected because of the positions they occupied.
One duty of the bacon board is to ensure that supplies required for export will be available. This necessitates regulation in the marketing of bacon and storing the product in the season of surplus production to make up deficits in the summer months, when hog marketings are usually light. Another duty is to arrange for price differentials between grades so as to ensure the maintenance of pre-war quality as required by the agreement.
A deduction of 72 cents per 100 pounds was made by the bacon board for the period January to April in order to build up a fund. Recently the amount deducted was increased. The purpose of the fund is to pay for storage on bacon held over for summer shipment and to pay a higher price during summer months.
Supplies of hogs coming forward from farmers in the first four months of 1940 were much greater than those required to fill the weekly quota of 5,600,000 pounds of bacon. The amount of bacon requires about 48,000 hogs weekly. Hog marketings averaged 93,000 hogs per week from January 1 to March 31. Domestic consumption usually requires 40,000 per week, which leaves an excess over export and domestic needs of 5,000 hogs weekly; that is of Canadian delivery.
From January to mid-April the board authorized packers to store to its account a quantity each week. Storage stocks accumulated in heavier volume in the first three months of 1940 than was the original intention of the board. There seemed good reason to believe during that time that Great Britain would require quantities in excess of the weekly quota shipments, and during a considerable part of that time she was taking bacon in excess of the weekly requirements.
However, even after the German invasion of Denmark word was received from the United Kingdom that Canada could not expect to ship any quantity of bacon over the minimum of 5,600,000 pounds per week during the life of the contract. Storage stocks in Canada at that time were sufficient to supplement the smaller summer production. Accordingly the board was forced to restrict storage from mid-April in gradually declining amounts until May 4, when all into-storage movement for the account ceased.


Mark Cecil Senn: I do not like to interrupt the minister so often, but would he stajte how much of that surplus was due to imports from the United States?


James Garfield Gardiner: I was just coming to that. It is only fair to say this, that while the figures I have given to the house deal with Canadian production only and do not deal with the importation from the United States, there was a considerable importation of pork products into Canada from the United States during those six weeks beginning about the middle of January and running towards the end of February.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would
the minister tell us the amount of the importation?


James Garfield Gardiner: In round figures, 24,000,000 pounds, and those 24,000,000 pounds have had some bearing upon the 68,000,000 pounds we have in storage in Canada or had at the first of May.
Hog prices on the domestic market held steady, $9 per hundredweight Toronto, and S8.60 Winnipeg, as long as the board was willing to pay for storage of excess quantities.

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
However, packers were nervous about the outlook and early in April price declines occurred. The invasion of Denmark inspired confidence that excess supplies would be needed, but by April 17 definite word was issued by the bacon board that Great Britain would not require any extra bacon for the time being.
The average price of domestic supplies, including the cheaper United States product, was below the price paid for Canadian hogs up to March 31. The margin over the cost of American pork allowed the payment of export values for the limited number of Canadian hogs going into domestic consumption. Now, however, it is necessary to place in domestic consumption all hogs except those being processed for immediate shipment to the United Kingdom. Accordingly, domestic hog prices fell and now are about SI per hundredweight lower than during the period December 22, 1939 to March 31, 1940. Future prices will depend upon the volume of hog marketings and the rate of domestic consumption in the next few months. Prices are now being adjusted to the average of the export and domestic value of the product. The meaning of that is that an adjustment has been made in the price which goes to the packer. The price has been reduced by one-half cent a pound from what it was during the winter months.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Is the packer still getting the same return, because he is buying his hogs cheaper?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have just stated that the price to the packer who delivers under the contract with Great Britain has been reduced by one-half cent a pound.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The packer is making no
sacrifice.


James Garfield Gardiner: He is making a sacrifice to the extent of one-half cent a pound; that is, he is getting one-half cent a pound less.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: But he pays less.


James Garfield Gardiner: He pays less, but that only affects about half the hogs, for about half the hogs go into domestic trade and the other half for export.


Mark Cecil Senn: Is not the 72 cents per 100 pounds deduction from the price paid by Great Britain sufficient to keep on storing hogs?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is not sufficient to keep on storing hogs and at the same time make provision for giving an advance in price to the farmer during the month, say, of July

if it is found possible to do that under conditions then existing. There is a twofold purpose in the set-up of the board.


Mr. PERLEY:: What was the duty paid on the pork imported from the United States, and was there a drawback?


James Garfield Gardiner: The duty was H cents a pound under the trade agreement with the United States. There had been a drawback prior to the time this agreement came into effect, but that drawback has been withheld since the agreement came into effect. The question has been raised by some people whether it should be retroactive but, up to the present moment, the whole drawback has been withheld.


Arza Clair Casselman: How much did the drawback amount to?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am not at the moment in a position to say, but it would be 99/100ths of 1J cents a pound.


Arza Clair Casselman: On 24,000,000 pounds?


James Garfield Gardiner: At the moment I have not the figures. Prices are now being adjusted to the average of the export and domestic value of the product. Cooperation of the trade is being secured to increase domestic consumption, this being one means to relieve the supply situation.
I should now like to say a few words regarding cheese. No restrictions were placed on the importation of Canadian cheese into the United Kingdom until late in March, 1940.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I do not want to interrupt the minister; I think the house is willing to give him plenty of time. Before he leaves the question of pork, I wanted to ask him a question. I understand there has been an arrangement made that United States pork is not coming in; it is put on a quota basis. Will the minister explain to the house under what clause of the trade agreement that was done, or how was it done?


James Garfield Gardiner: Since the trade agreement was made with the United States there have arisen a number of instances where it has been necessary to negotiate as between the two governments in relation to certain developments. Wie had negotiations, for example, with regard to cattle. At first, provision was made for a number of cattle to be exported, and when we came to the end of that number, whether it was the middle of the season or whenever it was, we ceased to send cattle into the United States. It was afterwards arranged to put the quota on a quarterly basis.
When war was declared there was a considerable interference with the movement of furs

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
from one country to another; and the United States government asked the government of Canada to consider placing a quota on furs moving out of Canada into the United States. That was done.
When the question came up of the importation of pork products into Canada, it was obvious that, had we just placed an embargo on the importation of those products we would have met with some opposition from our United States friends with regard to cattle or some other products going into that country. Therefore negotiations were carried on with the government of the United States, and they agreed, on the request of this government, to place the quota on the basis of what it had been monthly from January 1 to September 30, 1939. So it is now on that basis, of about
1,600,000	pounds a month.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: That will remain in force during the life of the trade agreement?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Mr. FAIR:: Before leaving the hogs, may I ask whether it is not a fact that the packers have a guaranteed price for the products they sell and that the producers have to take the price that the manipulated market will afford?


James Garfield Gardiner: The point that has been mentioned is probably not as clear as it might have been in the statement I have just made. It is this, that when the bacon agreement was first made, the government was allowed $18.01 a hundredweight at the port of shipment for any bacon which he was shipping to Britain. The government was provided, under the agreement, with $18.01. The packer was allowed $17.29; which leaves, I think, 72 cents a hundred pounds to be placed in a fund. In that fund, before the 72 cents was taken, there was already some $300,000, which represented the difference in price paid in the first two months of the agreement to farmers for hogs as compared with the price the packer was getting for the bacon. Then, since a date which I have not before me at the moment, the price to the packer has been reduced another half-cent a pound, and that half-cent is also going into the same fund. So during the early weeks of the agreement the fact that pork products -were coming in from the United States in considerable volume made it possible for the packer to pay more to the farmer than the agreement would have permitted him to pay. During that time the farmer was actually getting more for his hogs than the British agreement by itself would have provided for, simply because of the fact that a price was being charged to the consumer in Canada for United States products which made it possible to pay a higher price
to the farmer. During that period we. did not consider it advisable to put the price on the basis of the payment which was being made to the packers for bacon. Now, of course, the situation is changed somewhat; but an attempt is being made to adjust the consumption, so that later on a better price can be paid to the farmer as a result of these activities.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: May I ask the minister if he implies that the trade agreement is working against the interests of the Canadian farmer?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I do not think so, because during the winter months we received 2J to 4 cents a pound more for our hogs than they were receiving in the United States; during considerable part of that time, from 1 cent up to 2\ cents per pound more than would have been provided to our farmers had it not been that we had this agreement with the United Kingdom and arrangement with the United States.


Mr. WRIGHT:: What is the price the farmer will get on the basis of the export market alone?


James Garfield Gardiner: It would depend, of course, where he was.


Percy Ellis Wright: At Winnipeg?


James Garfield Gardiner: At Winnipeg it was something under 8'60 cents a pound. At Toronto it was something under 9 cents at that time.


Percy Ellis Wright: How much under?


James Garfield Gardiner: I could not say offhand. It would be a very small fraction of a cent.
To return to the discussion of cheese, as I was saying, no restrictions were placed on the importation of Canadian cheese into the United Kingdom until late in March, 1940. From the commencement of the war until that time sales were made through the regular channels. In other words, there was that difference between the importation into Britain of bacon and the importation of cheese. There were restrictions on bacon but no restrictions on cheese during the months of last winter. From the commencement of the war until that time, sales were made through the regular channels. A substantial increase in exports occurred at prices considerably above those prevailing before the war. Pre-war prices, however, were abnormally low.
Discussions took place during the fall of 1939 with regard to the possibility of concluding an export cheese contract. Rapidly rising cheese prices owing to unrestricted sales in the United Kingdom and the consequent

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
stimulus to exports resulted in the clearing out of most of the cheese held by producers. The matter of making an agreement was, therefore, held over until 1940.
The United Kingdom took steps to control the price of cheese in March, and a general import order was issued on March 20. From March 27 to April 15 import licences were granted for Canadian cheese on a restricted price basis.
Practically all details of a cheese agreement were concluded by May 20, and the agreement has now been made. It was announced in the press last evening. The agreement is retroactive to May 1. The ministry of food agrees to purchase from Canada up to 35,000 long tons of cheese from the production of the season ending November, 1940. That is, between May 1 and November 1, 1940, they will take 35,000 long tons. A dairy products board has been established in Canada to carry out the provisions of the agreement.. The contract price, basis f.o.b. ocean steamer or rail Montreal, is to be 14 cents for first grade, 13| cents for second grade and 13 cents for third grade cheese.
In regard to fibre flax, British sources of flax fibre and fibre flax seed having been curtailed as a result of war developments. The United Kingdom authorities sought from Canada increased supplies of fibre and asked that seed surplus to Canadian requirements be made available to the government of Northern Ireland, where such seed was urgently needed. By order in council P.C. 3532, of November 7, 1939, the export of fibre and tow was prohibited save under licence, to make sure that these products should go to the British fibre control board. Plans were likewise made by the agricultural supplies board to increase the area sown to fibre flax from the 8,000 acre figure of 1939 to some 22,000 acres in 1940, and after sufficient seed had been set aside to ensure this expansion in Canada, the remainder, amounting to 17,754 bushels, was shipped to Northern Ireland.
Exports of Canadian eggs went forward to Great Britain in the last four months of 1939, and were paid for at values fixed by the ministry of food. Import licences were required and were freely issued. Negotiations took place between the two governments during the fall months, but owing to brisk fall distribution in Canada and volume of exports to Great Britain, quantities immediately available were insufficient to make an agreement possible. In January a surplus of eggs developed in Canada, and negotiations for an agreement were renewed. In the meantime some advertising was done in Canada to dispose of an impending accumulation in stocks of fresh
'Mr. Gardiner.]
eggs. By the end of April the United Kingdom made a definite offer for the purchase of eggs for May and early June shipment and for fall delivery. The agreement was concluded by May 3. The ministry of food will purchase through normal trade channels, and exporters are being requested to make offers through their agents. If private trading is not successful, the Canadian government is prepared to establish an agency to facilitate shipments.
Concerning the conservation of essential supplies, required in the production of agricultural products, the agricultural supplies board in the fall of 1939 established three special committees to deal with seed supplies, fertilizers, and pesticides. In some instances requirements have been cut off from Europe as a result of war, and in others it was feared that the export demand would quickly deplete Canadian stocks. The seed committee made a comprehensive survey of Canada's seed supplies in September, 1939. Sufficient seed for all requirements was found to be available for 1940, while many vegetable seeds were sufficient in supply for 1941.
Action was taken through provincial agencies for the conservation and utilization of rust-resistant and other valuable strains and varieties of cereals. The cooperation of the provinces interested in field beans and peas was sought to encourage increased production for domestic needs.
I have already dealt with the matter of fibre flax seed to the extent I think it need be discussed. Certain arrangements were made with regard to seed potatoes; and field root seeds, garden vegetable seeds, and fertilizer supplies were arranged for under the committee set up.


Mr. HATFIELD:: What was the advance
in price on fertilizer, and how much was exported from Canada to the United States?


James Garfield Gardiner: I have not those figures; I will get them when the estimates are before the house.
The pesticides supply committee investigated the supply of insecticides, fungicides and disinfectants, and arrangements were made for these supplies.
There have been certain discussions with regard to feed for the feeding of live stock in different parts of Canada.
There is one other matter that I should like to deal with. I refer to the question of the apple agreement. The government has kept continuously in touch with British government authorities in an endeavour to dispose of farm products such as apples and poultry. The Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) and the government

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
officials who accompanied him overseas in November, 1939, carried on discussions with the United Kingdom government. An export outlet was obtained for 1,350,000 long hundredweight of apples, 8.000,000 pounds of tobacco and a quantity of dressed chickens. The apple quota was based on 50 per cent of the average shipment for the previous two years, while the dressed chicken quota was 50 per cent of the 1938-39 exports.
In September it was anticipated that the United Kingdom would import very few apples from Canada, partly owing to the fact that a large crop was available in the old country and partly because apples were not considered as essential as some other foods. Canada usually produces annually from four to five million barrels of apples, and the 1939 crop was nearly five and one-half million barrels. The government met apple growers and representatives of the trade at a conference on September 15, 1939. At this conference it was agreed that the dominion government would aid the industry by (a) direct purchase of apples; (b) assistance in canning and dehydrating; (c) zoning of sales areas in Canada; (d) raising minimum grade standards; (e) advertising and merchandising campaign; and (f) negotiations with Great Britain to obtain at least a portion of the crop.
An agreement was formed w'ith Nova Scotia growers and processors to absorb their surplus of apples by processing, manufacturers to pay prices based on 65 per cent of the average of the past three years for No. 1 and domestic grades. There was packed in Nova Scotia a total of 1,735,726 barrels, of which 1,214,465 barrels were processed; 349,981 barrels were exported to the United Kingdom; 30,567 barrels were exported to other countries and 140,713 barrels were sold in Canada. At March 31, the Nova Scotia marketing board, which took over full control of this province's apple marketing, had no supplies for either export or local sales. Under the agreement with Nova Scotia manufacturers, an unsold balance of 546,653 cases of canned apples and 154,633 cases of dried apples came under government disposal on May 15. This quantity represents 49 per cent of the total quantity canned, 512,754 barrels, and 76 per cent of the quantity dried, 712,041 barrels. The apparent value of the quantity on hand is $1,408,130. The government loss on the whole operation is expected to be $1,154,000.


Mark Cecil Senn: Is that Nova Scotia alone?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes.


Mark Cecil Senn: Has the minister the Ontario figures?


Heber Harold Hatfield: Were any apples imported from the United States?


James Garfield Gardiner: There would be some. Exports of both canned and dried apples were below expectations, and recently the United Kingdom placed restrictions on importations of all canned fruits and vegetables. It is possible, therefore, that the loss on this project may be greater than the figure I have given to the house as the present loss.
The dominion government agreed to guarantee against loss on consignment exporting of British Columbia apples to the extent of $425,000. The actual expenditure on this project was $106,750. In addition, the government purchased 90,000 boxes of British Columbia apples at a cost of $87,500 for relief distribution in the drought area of western Canada. British Columbia had 67,244 boxes of apples in storage on May 4. This figure is in line with stocks in previous years. The total distribution of British Columbia apples in both export and domestic trade was not dissimilar to that of the previous year. More sales were made in western Canada, less in eastern Canada; slightly less were exported and more w'ere processed.
The government agreed to purchase 75,000 barrels of Ontario apples undisposed of at March 31. No request was made for this assistance because exports of Ontario apples exceeded expectations.
The steps taken by the government relieved a serious situation. The apple advertising campaign was instrumental in increasing domestic consumption by 33 per cent throughout the dominion. The agreement with the United Kingdom to export 1,350,000 long hundredweight aided greatly in relieving the all but hopeless situation. The department in cooperation with the apple advisory committee arranged for a fair distribution of this export quota among the then main production areas.
An interesting development as a result of the large surplus of apples has been the introduction of a new fruit juice made from Canadian apples. Nearly 1,000,000 gallons of this new product were produced from the 1939 crop as compared with some 60,000 gallons from the 1938 crop. So popular has this product proved itself that supplies on hand are not sufficient to meet the demand for the remainder of this year. As a result, the 1940 production is expected to be a great deal larger and of a more uniform and higher quality. Special grades have been established by the department to ensure a quality product to the consumers.

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner
On the assumption that imports of Canadian apples will again be curtailed by Great Britain in the 1940-41 season, the government has already taken steps to meet the situation. A basis for an agreement has been drawn up for Nova Scotia, and arrangements are under way for discussions with representatives of the British Columbia and Ontario apple industry. Under the proposed agreement with Nova Scotia the government agrees to guarantee to producers a percentage of the average return for apples of the more desirable varieties and grades usually exported.
In conclusion I should like to make this statement. Speaking in Winnipeg on November 15 last I stated:
So long as there is a prospect of Britain being able to keep the trade routes open we should not become too anxious to change our agricul-
Stocks of farm products in
Commodity	Unit
Wheat (visible)	'000'	bush.Oats (visible)	'000'	bush.Barley (visible)	'000'	bush.Rye (visible)	'000'	bush.Flaxseed (visible)	'000'	bush.Pork	'000'	lb.Beef	'000'	lb.Veal	'000'	lb.Mutton and lamb	'000'	lb.Lard	'000'	lb.Imported pork	'000'	lb.Butter, creamery	'000'	lb.Cheese, factory	'000'	lb.Concentrated whole milk (1)	'000'	lb.Eggs in shell	'000'	doz.Eggs, frozen	'000'	lb.Dressed poultry	'000'	lb.Apples	'000'	bush.Potatoes	'000'	tonsOnions	'000'	tons
(1) April 1.
(1) Does not include stocks held by commercial
tural objectives in this country. We will probably do most for ourselves and Britain by continuing to produce just what we have been producing, improving immediately the quality and stepping up the quantity as the demand develops.
That advice was not accepted as sound by some but was acted upon by most. The result is that we have not an unduly high storage of any product, although more of every farm product, with the exception of cheese, was in storage on May 1 last than on the same date during any of the previous three years. The records show that because of an increased production of cheese there will be more available for delivery this summer. The following table will show our storage on May 1 of this year as compared with May 1 in each of the preceding three years.
store on or near May 1
1940	1939	1938	1937298,448	134,916	41,744	72,22810,288	8,978	8,200	7,8589,605	6,980	8,204	8,7124,587	2,327	1.226	1,843680	165	417	70468,716	36,477	44,358	57,94620,362	12,822	15,383	13,9072,303	2,520	2,170	2,1052,651	1,914	1,713	3,2523,880	3,162	3,450	2,9543,802	46	-	-.10,320	9,650	4,543	5,81713,684	26,508	17,787	15,98510,571	7,025	8,601	7,3194,600	3,148	4,440	4,5703,756	2,527	2,839	2,7977,858	5,128	4,951	8,146262	213	266	10656	88	48	5(2)3	1	-	1(2)growers.	
There is one other point I think I should mention before sitting down, because it has been brought up on quite a number of occasions since this debate opened and I believe was mentioned again this afternoon when I was not in the house. I do not know whether I followed the lead of the previous leader of the opposition who, toward the end of the campaign and later on, said that he probably addressed too many meetings during the campaign, but apparently I addressed some meetings which my friends think I should have addressed in a different way. In the first place it was suggested that I had stated at some meeting somewhere or another that there would be an interim payment on wheat. If I may be permitted to do so, I should like to read the newspaper report in question in order that 
I may point out just what it does say. This report went right across Canada; I saw it in newspapers in different parts of the country. It states:
Definite promise of amending legislation to provide for a ten or twelve cent interim payment on the current year's wheat crop was made here Wednesday afternoon by Hon, J. G. Gardiner. The Minister of Agriculture declared that if the King government was returned to power the present bill would be changed so that a payment might be made as soon as possible.
That is the report of the meeting at Wilkie on March 21 of this year, and it will be noted that what has been stated in the house does not appear in this report.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: 
James Garfield Gardiner: As a matter of fact my promise was that if the present government was returned to power I would recommend to the government that the wheat board act of 1935 be amended to provide that an interim payment could be made if circumstances warranted that being done. I have made that recommendation to the government, but I am not in a position to state to-night whether or not my recommendation will be acted upon.


Ernest Edward Perley: Would the minister quote from the Leader-Post of February 9?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not have it before
me.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is an important quotation, because there was a distinct promise made under certain conditions.


James Garfield Gardiner: The statement in full would be in these terms, that in 1935 we had an act placed on the statute books of Canada providing for an initial and a final payment. It did not provide for an interim payment, nor did it provide what the initial payment would be. During the session of 1939 we amended the act in order to provide that the advance payment should be 70 -cents, and left the clause providing that there should be only the advance and the final payment. I may be wrong, but it was my opinion that if it had been brought to the attention of the house at that time, provision would have been made for an interim payment. An interim payment is one to be made when a sufficient amount of wheat has been *sold at a sufficiently high price to make that payment possible without the government taking any loss. That is what an interim payment actually means. If the act provided for an interim payment, such payment would be made only provided there had been a sufficient sale of wheat at a sufficiently high price to make any such payment possible. In addition to what I have already said I stated that if all the wheat could be sold at the price prevailing, which was somewhere around 87 cents a bushel on the day I was speaking, a payment of from ten to twelve cents a bushel could be made; and if the act were amended to make an interim payment possible, such a payment could be made if a sufficient volume of wheat were sold at 87 cents or higher to make that payment possible.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: What proportion of the 1939 wheat crop has been sold up to the present time?


James Garfield Gardiner: I should prefer to have the hon. member reserve that question until the estimates of the Minister of Trade and Commerce are brought down; for, after all, that is a matter dealt with by his department.


Ernest Edward Perley: The statement of the minister at both Regina and Wilkie mentioned another condition, did it not, which would have to prevail in order to have an interim payment of five to eight cents or ten to twelve cents?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not recall that at the moment.


Ernest Edward Perley: Did not the minister say something about storage charges being avoided?


James Garfield Gardiner: The carrying charges at that time would be around four to five cents, and if you provided four to five cents for storage and carrying charges out of 87 cents a bushel you would have ten to twelve cents a bushel left as an interim payment. Both things are involved in the one statement.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then why did the minister suggest five to eight cents on February 6 and ten to twelve cents on March 21?


James Garfield Gardiner: Because the price was lower at one time than it was at the other, at least according to my information. If the price were around 80 cents a bushel you could not pay more than 5 cents; if it were 82 cents, you could pay 2 cents more; and if it were 87 cents, you could pay 5 cents more.


Ernest Edward Perley: The price was 87 cents on the first occasion and very little more on the second.


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not remember now what the prices were on those dates, but usually before making a speech I would look at a newspaper to see what the price was and then calculate the amount in accordance with that price.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then in accordance with these promises or statements with respect to an interim payment, will the minister in due course bring in the necessary legislation to amend the act?


James Garfield Gardiner: I can only say that this would not be my legislation. This matter is not dealt with by my department at all. If it had been, probably I would have said more than I did say. I said I would recommend to the Minister of Trade and Commerce that certain things be done, and have made that recommendation. We have not the same Minister of Trade and Commerce to-day, but no doubt the present minister has my recommendation before him.

War Appropriation-Mr. Gardiner


Ernest Edward Perley: I think the minister should have made that clear to the electors.


James Garfield Gardiner: I made it very clear to the electors. If those are all the questions, I should like to say in conclusion-


James Arthur Ross: May I ask how much wheat has been imported into Canada this year?


James Garfield Gardiner: My hon. friend will have to get those figures from the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon). If I may be permitted to conclude-


Ernest Edward Perley: Just before the minister concludes-


James Garfield Gardiner: I think I have been fairly liberal in answering questions-


Ernest Edward Perley: I believe I have been rather generous to the minister on many occasions and I think he might extend the same courtesy to me now. At the same time the minister made another statement with respect to interim payments, namely, that the farmers would have representation on -the wheat board, and also that the advisory committee of the board would be reappointed. A statement to that effect was made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, namely, that the wheat advisory committee would be appointed in a few days following February 9, when the minister made the statement.


James Garfield Gardiner: That statement was made on the authority of the whole government, so I think the hon. member will find it will be carried out.
The remark I would wish to make would be this, that so far as agriculture is concerned, war always brings great difficulties to farmers. We in this house who represent agricultural constituencies are interested in seeing that farm surpluses which do accumulate from time to time in the early stages of the war are properly taken care of, and that farmers do not have to assume too great a share of any losses which may be incurred during the early years of a struggle of this kind.
We do not expect that in this war farmers will receive as high prices for farm products as they did during the last war, but we do hope that matters will be so managed during the period of the war that the farmer will secure his just returns, those returns always bearing a proper relationship to the fact that we are at war and that it is more important that we should win the war than that any other thing should happen.


Georges Parent: I should like to make a statement. We have got, as it were, into a committee form of procedure. Questions have been asked of ministers and answers have been given. The house will notice that during the whole debate I have not endeavoured to limit any of the ministers to the forty-minute rule, although they would properly come within its operation. The reason is that I sensed it was the feeling in the house that as much information as possible should be obtained from the government. Therefore I have allowed ministers to speak more than forty minutes, always realizing that if they wished they could speak again during the discussion on the resolution in committee. Under those circumstances, however, their remarks would be disjointed.
As I say, it appeared to me it was the sense of the house that ministers should make their statements fully, rather than that I should invoke the strict rule. However, I call attention to the fact that the forty-minute rule still exists, so far as other hon. members are concerned. I have permitted the ministers to speak at great length because I believed the house wanted to have as much information as possible before the discussion on the resolution in committee.
Hon. W. E. ROWE, (Dufferin-Simcoe): Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted at this time to congratulate you, an old colleague of mine in the house, upon the responsible position you have assumed, and also upon the creditable manner in which you are discharging your responsibility.
In rising to discuss this measure, I do so with very different feelings from those which have animated me on many occasions in the past. I realize, as every hon. member must, that at this moment we face a situation so grave that it challenges each and every one of us to approach the problems at present before us with an outlook different from that with which we have allowed ourselves to approach problems on other occasions.
I do not propose for a moment to review statements which were made during the election campaign. I do not propose to discuss promises or gestures made here and there throughout the country, nor do I propose to take up the time of the house in complimenting the government upon its return to power or in giving any empty flattery to the political expediency which often brings about these situations. I say that because I am conscious of the fact that to-night the situation is so grave and so seriously affects the very heart of the empire that each and all of us are far removed from the narrow partisanship which at times in the past has seemed to prevail.

War Appropriation-Mr. Rowe
Problems to-day are different. To-day we are engaged in a conflict which, indeed, is not of our own choosing. It is a great conflict between two great ideals.
It is a conflict which does not involve our methods of farming; it does not involve the profit we may obtain from an industry; it does not involve the social welfare of our people in our national life, but it does involve the decision as to whether or not we are going to retain our national life at all. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I feel the issue is and has been very clear. Our duty never was so clear as it is to-day, and, in all humility, I say our task never was so great. As an individual member of the house I feel I have a responsibility which, if not as great as that of those sitting to your right, sir, is a responsibility which, as an older member, I must meet.
I have every sympathy for those who are carrying the burden of governmental responsibility in these perilous times, but I do say that even though in these times we seem to have turned to wishful thinking, tragic hesitation and divided council, our duty is still clear. Individuals throughout the country and, indeed, members of the house have wondered much as to what is going on. We know that at times we feel helpless and almost submerged in the problems confronting civilization to-day. I feel that if ever there was a time when each and all of us should feel the gravest humility for the situation, that time is now.
If some hon. member may have thought that in the past I have been partisan, as I have thought some hon. members have been partisan, I would say that not one iota of partisanship is in my mind or heart to-night. As I sat listening to the speeches delivered to-night, and was deciding whether or not I should rise in my place, I could not help thinking of an old saying of my dear old mother. She always said, " When you are in an hour of crisis it might be well to get down on one knee and pray, rather than talk too much." Sir, we face this situation, knowing that only if we exhibit calmness and courage can this empire survive. We have felt that for many months; yes, we have felt it for several years. I say our duty is so [DOT]clear to-night that we must assume it. We must bring home to every man and woman in Canada a realization of the danger of the German assault to every outpost of freedom, morality and human decency in the lives of men and nations. We must realize that we have a duty-and when I say " we ", I include the government of Canada. In this parliament we are the people's representatives, to whom the country is looking to-day for
aggressive leadership. They are looking for leadership, not to improve the prices of farm commodities, not particularly to improve the wages of men in the mines or on the farms, not particularly to improve the happiness, social welfare or luxury of the individual in his home. They are pleading to-night at indignation meetings which are being held all over the country that action be taken to save a situation which is well-nigh appalling, to save a situation that can be saved only by courage, confidence and calm resolution. What is needed from this part of the empire as well as from the other parts is not a minimum effort, but a maximum effort.
Not only have we a duty to impress this upon the people, but as a member of his majesty's loyal opposition in this parliament, I feel it is my humble duty to try to impress upon the government of the day the fact that the old land is calling for every man able to hold a gun. I want to impress upon the government the fact that there are millions of refugees in France who are hungry to-day, and before veiy long there may be millions of refugees in the old land who will be in the same situation. They are pleading for us to do our best. Idle men come to me, as they come to every other hon. member, pleading for a job to do, asking where they can fit into this task.
We have skilled artisans; we have excellent mechanics; we have strong and able-bodied men in this country who are pleading for something to do. Thousands of men are idle and thousands of factories are running only part time or standing idle. We have elevators filled with wheat, and yet before this crisis is over, men and women will be crying for bread. This crisis will not wait the slow pace of our measured political tread which we seem to be pursuing. I intend to try with all my sincerity to divorce myself from saying against any one individual anything which might be construed as being of a partisan and political nature. I have only one motive in mind and, knowing the members of this house as I have known them for many years, I do not believe that there is one within sound of my voice to-night who has any other motive than the one to which I refer, namely, that there is a gigantic task to finish, that there is a victory which must be and shall be won, but can only be won if every part of the British empire makes its maximum effort.
That duty is clearly before us. In the British House of Commons hon. members have made speeches stating that they like our sympathetic sentiments, but that they would rather have guns, aeroplanes and munitions.
War Appropriation-Mr. Rowe

I am going to be cautious in what I say because I do not want to tell the enemy of all the failures of the present government. I should like to review to-night why we have not given more in the way of guns. The few guns that we have given stand as an appalling example of the lack of effort. This is the first opportunity the country has had to be told of what is going on. We fought an election when the people expected we would be fighting a war. Much was said then, but I feel that whatever has been done by the government to provide more guns, that whatever has been planned, it is not enough. We must have much greater activity. Our mines and our mills must be driven with fevered desperation lest it be too late.
No doubt the production of munitions is under way; no doubt military plans and schemes have been drafted, but that is not enough. Along with other members of the house I supported a gigantic military scheme to spend 8188,000.000 for military equipment. You -may recall, Mr. Speaker, that when the first 837,000,000 was voted, I said that so far as my riding was concerned I knew that the people would prefer to have it total $100,000,000. I am here to-night representing, not the farmers in a demand for higher prices, not the business people of my district, but those people who have no other issue in their minds but that Canada shall make the maximum effort to win this war.
I am not going to talk about what has been done in the way of providing munitions, but I know that we have not done what we might have done. I do not think anyone will deny that. Our forges must work overtime; the fires in our factories must never die down. Bombs and shells and bullets must be multiplied mercilessly if we are going to win the war. Our people must be just as merciless in dealing with our common foe.
There is another matter that must be considered, that of food. This country is flowing with milk and honey. For years our farmers have been producing wheat for less than the cost of production. This government and this country as part of the British empire should not worry about selling wheat to Europe; we should be ready to give 5,000,000 bushels of wheat to Great Britain and France to feed their refugees. This should be a gift in order to let them know that we are in this fight. We should send every type of support we can muster from the great heritage we have in this dominion. I should like to see this country realize that while people over there are in their present condition, we should share our bread, slice for slice if necessary, even though we must take up our belts a little in the process.

We are in a fight to the finish. We are going to win; but the sooner we go in wholeheartedly, the sooner we will come out victorious. There is no doubt about that. The hour has struck in Canada. We should let down the dollar sign and let the people see the danger sign. I have received letters from different departments asking me to save money in the next year or two. I hear speeches telling us how we can save the financiers and how we can save prices for the farmers of this country, but that is not our task now. Our task is to save the bulwark of Christian civilization, the British empire.
One other thing we can do is to send men. Many men are clamouring to serve, but they are being refused. They cannot get into the Canadian army. These men should be given an opportunity to serve because it might well be that during this struggle the last soldier could sway the balance to victory. Such a man would feel very -much disappointed if he was deterred and hindered from doing his part in this terrific fight because the government was not ready to take him on.
One other item that could be given is aeroplanes and more aeroplanes. We are seeing the effects of the blitzkreig that is now going on, and to face this needs all the calmness, courage and fortitude that we have. We know that members of the Royal Air Force are fighting with courage, determination and skill and their achievements are equal to the best British achievements of the past. We feel here to-night that we should have every factory in Canada working twenty-four hours a day in the manufacture of aeroplanes, and that we should be pressing this to the limit and beyond all limits. I say that the government to your right, Mr. Speaker, will stand condemned on the pages of Canadian history for not having overseas in support of those gallant boys to-night at least 25,000 British fighting planes. Some hon. gentlemen would laugh at even that.


An hon. MEMBER:: Nobody is laughing.


Mr. ROWE:: The boys of the Royal Canadian Air Force are not laughing to-night, and the government which sits to your right, Mr. Speaker, should not be laughing to-night.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Nobody is laughing.


William Earl Rowe: I am sure that my hon.
friend the member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) is not laughing because he knows the situation just as well as I do, and he has been one of the promoters of training schemes in this country. I repeat that this government will stand condemned on the pages of history for its appalling lack of war preparation, and I challenge any hon. member who

War Appropriation-Mr. Rowe
sits in the present administration to rise and deny it. None rises, Mr. Speaker. Silence gives consent.


Mr. MAYBANK:: On a point of order,
Mr. Speaker, I rose to address you a moment ago, the gentleman who has the floor having resumed his seat. I did not know at the time that it was merely histrionics; I thought he had concluded his remarks.


An hon. MEMBER:: What is the point
of order?


Ralph Maybank: The point of order is
that he has lost his right to speak.


William Earl Rowe: This hour is too grave for
any quibblings by the hon. member. The people of this country are not very much concerned whether my parliamentary etiquette is strictly according to Hoyle.


Ralph Maybank: Nor your histrionics.


William Earl Rowe: I will give you some, and you will not enjoy them before I have finished.
As I said when I rose to speak I do not propose for a moment to get into any political argument with my hon. friend to my right or my hon. friends across the way. I have done so in the past and I may do so in the future, but there is an issue much larger than that before us to-night, and I say, Mr. Speaker, that a government which has failed so dismally up to the present time should take the cue and answer the cry from all across this country, perhaps not to resign, but to reorganize the government so that we shall have one that the people can trust to finish the grave task before us. I well recollect the occasion when the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) gave us clearly to understand by his words which are on the records of Hansard that he was not prepared to cooperate with Great Britain to the extent of building British aeroplanes here in Canada and training British airmen here.


Mr. MACDONALD (Brantford City):: That is not so.


William Earl Rowe: My hon. friend should know for he was here; I am sorry he was not listening. May I be permitted to read from the records of Hansard. I refer the hon. member for Brantford City to Hansard of July 1, 1938, and may I be pardoned if I omit from what I read the tilts between the Prime Minister and the then leader of his majesty's loyal opposition because I say again that the issue which is facing us to-night is too grave for us to be entertaining ourselves with the smart repartee between those two leaders which they could display on any issue that comes into this house. But I will show the hon.
member for Brantford City and other hon. members that the reason why we did not train British airmen in Canada and build British aeroplanes in Canada at a greater speed than we have done was because the Prime Minister of this country refused to consider the matter on that basis. The hon. member for Brantford City again shakes his head. I quote the words of the Prime Minister speaking in this house on July 1, 1938. A discussion had previously taken place on the air training scheme, and there had been mention of an article in the Vancouver Sun, as many hon. members will recall. The present Prime Minister said:
.	.	. the statement then made was to the
effect that no requests had been received from the British government for the establishment in Canada of training centres for aviators of the air force of the United Kingdom.
Mark you: No request was made.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Is the hon. member reading from Hansard now, or making his own remarks?


William Earl Rowe: The hon. minister surely trusts me to quote accurately. I have trusted him beyond that.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I did not think the text read as the hon. member was continuing to give it.


William Earl Rowe: I am reading the text and I will pass the copy of Hansard over to the hon. member. The Prime Minister went on to say on that occasion:
Confidential and informal exploratory conversations with respect to training of British air pilots have taken place, but nothing has developed which it was felt warranted a statement of policy. As has been indicated, if any proposals are made by the government of the United Kingdom, the Canadian government would of course be prepared to discuss them with that government and to make its position known to the Canadian people and to parliament. Possibly hon. members have noticed that this matter has been brought up in the British parliament at Westminster where replies have been made to questions asked.
Now I omit a few lines.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Read it all.


William Earl Rowe: You have asked me, Mr. Speaker, not to infringe on the time of the house as ministers are allowed to do, so I shall make my own speech in my own words. The Prime Minister proceeded:
May I say a word with respect to the idea of having the imperial air force set up flying schools in Canada to train their pilots; in short, a military station put down in Canada, owned, maintained and operated by the imperial government for imperial purposes. I must say that long ago Canadian governments finally settled the constitutional principle that in Canadian territory there could be no military establishments unless they were owned, maintained and
War Appropriation-Mr. Rowe

controlled by the Canadian government responsible to the Canadian parliament and people. In the end the imperial naval stations and army garrisons were withdrawn and Canadian authority took over. A reversal of that principle and that historical process at this date is something the Canadian people would not for a moment entertain. Such domestic ownership, maintenance and control of all military stations and personnel is one of the really indispensable hallmarks of national sovereign selfgovernment and an indispensable basis for friendly and effective cooperation between the governments of Canada and those of other parts of the British commonwealth of nations, including the government of the United Kingdom. Outside its homeland a state may have military stations and quarter military personnel in countries which it "owns," in its colonies or "possessions," or in its mandated territories according to the trust deed, or in countries over which it has assumed or been yielded, by some arrangement, what amounts to a protectorate. But no country pretending to sovereign self-control could permit such a state of affairs or its implications and consequences.
Then the leader of his majesty's loyal opposition, the Right Hon. Mr. Bennett, replied:
The question I was about to ask has been answered by the Prime Minister. I would be derelict in my duty if I did not say at once that I wholly and entirely and utterly disagree with that statement. When the ancient partner upon whom we have leaned all these years is not to be permitted to provide effective means for maintaining, not her life but the life of an empire and commonwealth, then I say it is time for us to take stock of the situation.
Mr. Bennett further states, on the same page:
Every man who has read-[DOT]
This was the position of our party at that time, the position of our leader; yes, and the position the Canadian people believed should have been taken.
Every man who has read the history of modern warfare and knows what is being prepared realizes that the bombers of to-day will make the British islands the very forefront of attack in the next war. They are threatened, and where are they to prepare for their defence, which is our defence? Not in those little islands. And if they want to come here and train and prepare to send their bombers across the ocean if the occasion arises, should they not be permitted gladly to do so and be welcomed? For what they are saving is our civilization, and Canada-and Canada, I repeat.


William Ross Macdonald: England was always in accord with Canada's -stand.


William Earl Rowe: Was Canada always in accord with England's stand?


William Ross Macdonald: They were one. They have always been one on the air training scheme.


William Earl Rowe: My hon. friend had better
read the magazine The Sphere. He had better have talked to the three men from the War Office who were out here.


William Ross Macdonald: I have talked to them all, and I am still of the opinion that Canada and Britain have always been at one on the air training scheme.


William Earl Rowe: May I go further and show from our leader's speech where our party stood at that time? Mr. Bennett said:
And now we are told it would be inconsistent with national sovereignty that we should permit a partner to provide for a contingency that means our life. Do not let us have any misunderstanding about it. When Britain goes we go. Who stands if freedom fall; who dies if England lives? If it was the last word I ever uttered in this house or with the last breath in my body I would say that no Canadian is worthy of his great heritage and his great traditions and his magnificent hope of the future who would deny to the old partner who established us the right in this country to create those centres which she may not have at home to preserve her life and the life of every man who enjoys freedom and liberty under the protecting aegis of that flag.
The present Prime Minister replied:
May I say to my right hon. friend that the course above all others which serves to unite and which serves to keep united the British commonwealth of nations is that which is implied in the words " complete self-government on the part of each of the self-governing dominions" and self-government means control by the government of a country over its own military establishments.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I -have every regard for Canada's sovereignty. I say, however, a sovereignty that is tenderly applied might win an election, but only a sovereignty which is courageously executed can win a war. I may say to my hon. friend that this is not in Hansard, but it will be, I hope, from now on.


Mr. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: I
thought the hon. member was not going to play politics.


William Earl Rowe: Surely it is not playing politics to say that our sovereign place in this British empire requires us to do everything we can to win this war. My hon. friend surely would not say that that was playing politics, for he was one of those who offered their lives in the last great war. But I insist that this matter is all important. If our past record of delinquency in this regard is any indication of the way we are going about this awful task in the future, it is high time that we should make a change which will restore the .courage and confidence of our people to face the future, because I am certain that our

War Appropriation-Mr. Rowe
people do not believe that we should have some mysterious form of status to prevent us from putting our shoulder to the wheel with the British empire at the time we should have done it, namely, two years ago, not to-day, when we have a war plan or aviation scheme which will be ready in 1942 to meet the blitzkrieg in 1940.
Now may I proceed? I am going to leave out some statements that were made which would be interesting, but I see that my time is flying. If my hon. friend had read this speech in the past he would not have interrupted me as he has done this evening. The Prime Minister said:
May I say again to my hon. friend that when we have requests from the British government for a particular purpose we shall be prepared to consider them, but we have had no requests from the government of the United Kingdom for the establishment of training stations in this country up to the present.
But mark this:
We have had some exploratory conversations with respect to what might be desirable with a view to affording facilities for pilots to train, and we have indicated our position. . . .
This was back in July, 1938. The rumour at that time was that the plan was to train 25,000 pilots in Canada each year.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


William Earl Rowe: My hon. friends may say, "No," but let them read the British magazines.


Mr. GOLDING:: That is absolutely incorrect.


William Earl Rowe: The hon. member would not know. If my hon. friend is such an authority on military developments, why does he not move over closer to the government?
This country is asked to provide a 1942 plan to meet a 1940 crisis. But may I proceed to quote what the Prime Minister said, following what I read:
We have had some exploratory conversations with respect to what might be desirable with a view to affording facilities for pilots to train, and we have indicated our position, as I have stated it on the floor of this house this morning, that we are quite prepared in connection with our own establishments, to help in affording facilities to British pilots if that will be of service to them.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


William Earl Rowe: "To help."


William Henry Golding: That was not a refusal.


William Earl Rowe: But I ask my hon. friend this question-


William Ross Macdonald: Whom is the hon. member quoting?


William Earl Rowe: I am quoting the hon. member's leader, the present Prime Minister of Canada.


William Ross Macdonald: There were so many interruptions that I could not follow the hon. member.


Clarence Decatur Howe: One-third Mackenzie King and two-thirds Rowe.


William Earl Rowe: Again my hon. friend doubts
me. However, I trust hon. members will believe that I am reading the statement as it appears in Hansard.
But I ask my hon. friend this question: Does he believe that an announcement by any government, either Liberal or Conservative, in this parliament to the effect that the Canadian government was going to permit military establishments in Canada to be owned, controlled and operated from Great Britain, would for one minute make for peace and unity and helpful, cooperative relations between Canada and the United Kingdom and other parts of the British empire?


Mr. REID:: What was wrong with Great
Britain, anyway, that she did not come forward?


William Earl Rowe: That was the statement made by the Prime Minister. Then Mr. Bennett rose and said:
The question has been answered. No British government, after the statement made this morning by the Prime Minister of this country, will ever apply to his government for permission to establish an air training school here...
I am sorry; but I have obtained from the Prime Minister a statement which makes it obvious that no British government will face a refusal; and we have the refusal now, before application is made.


William Ross Macdonald: He is obviously wrong.


Georges Parent: Order.


Thomas Reid: If anybody failed, it was Great Britain.


Georges Parent: If the hon. member for
Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) wishes to permit interruptions, he of course may do so. But unless he gives that permission, no hon. member has the right to interrupt him. I would ask the house to let the hon. member continue his speech, because he is getting near the end of his allotted time.


William Earl Rowe: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not at all disturbed. I have had courtesies from other hon. members, and I do not want to be lacking in courtesy to them.
I leave the rest of the speech, which was made on July 1, 1938, for hon. members to read. To my mind it condemns this government for woeful lack of initiative in the most challenging crisis this country has ever faced.
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I do not think that anyone, realizing the critical position of the British empire to-day, can disagree with that conclusion. I would ask hon. members to refrain fromi interruption, and in quiet solitude as they go to their beds to-night ask themselves, would it have hurt our present war effort if the Prime Minister of that day had said to Britain: "Yes, you have protected us in the past; you protected with your navy our transportation of everything we sell abroad; you have protected the life of this country; you are the only security on which we lean; certainly we will give you the facilities of our vast areas to train your airmen. It may not suit the political whims of some in Canada, but it may defend us against the most brutal assault that civilization has ever seen." I say that in all sincerity, and I would not smile if my hon. friend said it, because the hour has struck, the crisis is here. Our duty is clear, the challenge is clamant throughout the country and the government must hear it.
Canada is a nation at war by her own decision. Canada is in the war as a member of the British commonwealth of nations. But is Canada not at war at this moment, in reality, as a member of the Franco-British commonwealth of nations? No other nation in the league of allied countries is so well equipped by heritage, by language and by ideals to understand the mother nations, Britain and France. It will be to the lasting glory of Canada that she heard the spiritual call of both these great mother nations and chose without delay, without a moment's hesitation, to heed that call of common blood and language, of religion and ideals. Canada is a nation of this western hemisphere and the only nation of this western hemisphere which is at war by her own decision and at her own charge. In this unique position we find ourselves, as a nation, an understanding interpreter and ally of our two mother nations- and pray God this understanding interpreter of the best ideals of two vast hemispheres may survive. Despite those who repudiate every ideal of truth, brotherhood and human honour, despite those who turn every gift of science, invention and industry to the service . of robbery, murder and destruction, we must keep faith with those who have gone before, and we shall win. But we shall win only if we are calm, confident and courageous and give all our energy to the task.


Mr. J. SASSEVILLE ROY (Gaspe) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, at this critical moment when we are all filled with anxiety, when we are assisting at the agony of democracy in Europe, and when the spectre of barbarism of which several unfortunate countries have
I Mr. Rowe.]
already been the victims is now threatening us -indeed, the war situation as reported to us this afternoon by the Prime Minister is even worse than it was-it is not surprising that the world should be panic-stricken. It is thus, Mr. Speaker, every time that the storm breaks suddenly over our heads or that a grave danger of annihilation threatens us. We have reached the brink of the awful precipice at the bottom of which everyone sees the worst horrors, and confusion is beginning to prevail.
Some accuse the government of not doing enough; others urge it do this rather than that, while still others are already asking for conscription, that law which almost brought about disunion in this country and which resulted in a twenty-year condemnation of the political party responsible for its enactment. Some there are also who would have the ship of state placed in charge of a different skipper.
The inference to be drawn from that state of affairs is that a new wave of imperialism is rising and is about to carry the government with it.
It is true that so far only the voice of the English-speaking provinces has been heard, the voice of Quebec having remained silent. At this moment when our future and our national unity are at stake, the greatest service we could render our country would be to find out the true opinion of Quebec regarding our participation in the war. The question of participation is not at issue; participation is a fact.
While condemning the government's foreign policy, we admit that the higher principles such as civilization and Christianity, which are at present at grips with the forces of hell, have to be defended. And if we differ from the government, it is solely as to the extent, the method and the effectivness of our participation. The hon. members who have spoken on the subject these last few days have been admirable in their loyalty to the mother country. While believing that Canada's interest lies in the success of the effort we are now putting forth, that is to say the victory of our armies and the preservation of our institutions and of civilization at large, we feel that what matters most is that Canada should be saved.
That is why we should guard against the dangers that are threatening us, and they are numerous. Tuesday evening, the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Massey) referred to fifth column activities in Canada. There is still another danger

that of conscription. It does exist and threatens us since a still greater participation is being organized and the government is telling us, through the hon. the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) and the hon. the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), that "our capacity should be the

War Appropriation-Mr. Roy
limit of our participation." Hence the danger of conscription against which I am now raising my voice.
The French-Canadians have the utmost respect for the British crown. We are just as devoted to England as our English speaking fellow-citizens are. We have proved it in the past when, a short time after the conquest, we rallied to the side of England against Montgomery who was helped by France, our former mother-country. In 1812, we gave another proof of our loyalty. Our whole history shows that we have remained loyal subjects of England, while preserving our affection for France.
But, we are more truly Canadians because we want to make Canada our country, the country that we have defended against the dangers that have threatened it.
In order to still better understand the real feelings of Quebec, and the reasons for its anti-imperialistic views, one must go back to 1914. The Liberal party to-day is placed in circumstances similar to those in which the Conservative party found itself when it engaged Canada in the first great war. But it is the same Liberal party who, since 1914, in the province of Quebec, continually condemned extreme participation in wars and roused the people against conscription, to the point that in 1918 there was rioting, and almost a revolution. We all remember that.
In 1919, when peace was signed, if it may be called peace, our newspapers, our public speakers criticized the Versailles treaty, on the grounds that this treaty had placed Germany in a geographical situation which would oblige her to break away her bonds some day. Since then they have criticized the Locarno conferences and others, and all those concessions we made to Germany whereby she was spared the obligation of paying what she had agreed to reimburse. The same newspapers and the same speakers have constantly criticized the European policy of lending enormous sums to Germany, a country which claimed poverty but eventually spent a good deal more than what it had promised to pay. Our papers and public speakers have also unceasingly criticized our allies, England and France, at the time when they made treaties with Germany for the exchange of material likely to help her rearm. Up to this day, they have censured such stupidity and insaneness which made it possible for Germany to rearm. Democracies were content, but that poor country was building up her armaments and thus became the power now threatening the whole world. We have organized war rather than peace. It would seem that war has been prepared through occult influences.
As you well know, that is how debts pile up and there can be no debtors without creditors.
There must be some reason to explain this disastrous lack of forethought. Why did the wealthiest countries lend their money to Germany and enable her to rearm?
There is no reason for unemployment to exist here to the same extent as it does in England and on the continent. Ours is a young country whereas these other nations no longer possess sufficient natural resources. They do not enjoy our possibilities of development. There is no justification for the existence here of the same problems and difficulties, and yet we are tom by the very dissensions that have upset the whole of Europe. We see the same advanced ideas penetrating into this country.
Therein lies another danger which the government should seek to allay. At all events, these advanced ideas continue to penetrate more and more deeply. Yet no one seems to realize this. There are already in this house certain members whose opinions on monetary questions differ from ours, thus leading one of them to say that war was merely a premium to the vicissitudes of the system.
Unless we show sufficient foresight, there may well occur in Canada certain changes that will bring about, before this war is won, the destruction of the order we seek to preserve. It is time, Mr. Speaker, that we should try to avoid the mistakes committed in the past.
Mr. Speaker, let us try to avoid the errors committed in the past, to ensure our protection at home in the first place, to study the best means, as I have said, of participating without jeopardizing our national unity and without allowing subversive ideas to go further and to overthrow the present order which we hold dear and which we wish to defend and protect. But everyone will admit that the things I have just said are true. Quebec is profoundly anti-imperialist. We are in favour of a moderate participation. It is so true that Quebec is profoundly antiimperialist that it would be dangerous to disregard its feelings. The Liberal party, whose leaders, members and defenders are good psychologists, have taken advantage of this point of view; they have made capital of this question of imperialism. They condemned their opponents by accusing them of imperialism and pretending that they themselves were not imperialists and saying that they should be anti-participationists. Not very long ago, just two or three sessions back,
War Appropriation-Mr. Roy

the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) stated that he was opposed to all participation in extraterritorial wars.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: That is untrue.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: If he asked parliament to vote millions, it was solely for the defence of Canada in Canada. During a by-election held in Lotbiniere, he himself stated the same thing. In Quebec last fall, while participating in the provincial election campaign, the right hon. Minister of Justice declared himself opposed to conscription as well as to the sending of an expeditionary force overseas. All this was merely for the purpose of obtaining votes, of capitalizing on the antiimperialist feeling he has fostered in that province, not a very difficult task since our soul, as I said a moment ago, is essentially Canadian and desires nothing else than to contribute to the progress of this country. A great deal of political capital was made out of this last March.
No one should mistake the real meaning of the vote given last March 26. During that campaign, every Liberal candidate stood against imperialism. The Liberal party's campaign rested on the issue of limited participation in the war. The government itself made the very same declarations and undertook the same commitments. They warned the people of Quebec against the Conservatives, claiming that a national government meant conscription. The right hon. Prime Minister himself stated over the air that the national government advocated by Dr. Manion was synonymous with conscription. Here again did they capitalize upon antiimperialist and anti-conscriptionist feeling.
It would appear much easier to be absolutely opposed to participation as well as antiimperialist and anti-conscriptionist when one is in the opposition in peace time than when one is in power and at war.
Where are to-day these men who claim to represent in this house the point of view and ideas of the province of Quebec? What have they to say these opponents of imperialism? What is their reaction while everyone here loudly demands conscription?
They stand behind the rampart

about which such a great deal was said in Quebec during the recent campaign-holding their breath in order not to be discovered.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Ridiculous!


Joseph Sasseville Roy: If these courageous gentlemen, wish to speak, they enjoy as well as I the privilege of doing so. I shall go even further and say it is their duty, and that their province expects them to do so.

Let them rise and fight in this critical hour for the principles they have defended during the last twenty-five years.


Mr. HUGUES LAPOINTE (Translation):: May I request the hon. member to stick to the facts. The present issue has nothing whatever to do with conscription.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Translation):: I would like to point out to the hon. member that the motion at present before the house is a motion to the effect that the Speaker leave his chair in order that the matter of an appropriation of $700,000,000 toward Canada's war effort may be discussed. As the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. Hugues Lapointe) has just remarked, the matter of conscription is not before the house. I feel that I must draw the hon. member's attention to the fact that he should, as far as possible, confine his remarks to the subject which is now being discussed in the house.


Joseph Sasseville Roy: Mr. Speaker, I beg to apologize if I have unwittingly broken the rules, for this is my maiden speech in this house. My object is to offset what has been said by imperialistic hon. members of this house in favour of a greater participation, for we all admit that the situation is quite serious, and I wish to state why our province is opposed to imperialism. It is because we have been led to adopt that attitude. I may be told that there is no sense in declaring a moderate war against Germany, but, as a matter of fact, that is what was promised to us.
To-day, we must guard against a fifth column that might cause us as much harm as Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Belgium and Holland have had to suffer. Consequently, before spending too much money in an external war, it behooves us to analyse carefully the needs of our country and the dangers with which we are confronted. I believe in the possibility of steering a middle course and reaching an agreement upon the participation that would be most effective. Since September, the situation of European countries has changed considerably. The French and British empires have lost allied territories,, so that they are now deprived of important sources of supply. England and France may be bombed, ravaged, but not beaten-God forbid that they should be-they may be-ravaged to such an extent that their productive capacity will be greatly impaired. They are not lacking in men; what they need is food, arms and munitions. Well, if England and France have lost considerable sources of supplies in Europe through German conquests, it would be highly important to devote our efforts to the organization of our 'natural

War Appropriation-Mr. Adamson
resources with a view to filling their needs. It would therefore be urgent to have our w'orkers produce as much as possible in order to supply the armies with what they may eventually lack. It is in that direction that we should turn our efforts and not in the direction of supplying men. It is by mobilizing all our wealth for the benefit of our allies that we will contribute to the defeat of the enemy.
Any measure involving compulsory enlistment would constitute a menace to Canadian unity. Everybody is agreed on that. Let us ward off such danger and we will avoid graver disorders perhaps than those that took place in 1918.
Next Sunday will be consecrated to asking God to bless our armies and to protect our country and our institutions. I think that on that day every hon. member of this house should particularly pray God to grant us the wisdom necessary to triumph without jeopardizing the future of our countiy, in order that she may come out of her conflict stronger than ever, that we may understand one another better and that our hearts may beat in unison for our homeland which is Canada.


Mr. A. R. ADAMSON (York West):: Mr. Speaker, it is with great misgivings that I rise in the house for the first time, not only because of my very obvious shortcomings, but because I feel that this is an hour the seriousness of which requires action, not words. It is only because what I have to say to-night will in my view be of some assistance to the government in its very heavy task that I rise in my place and take up the time of this honourable house.
During the course of the debate on the motion it was apparent to me that each member of the government who spoke took great care to stress the fact that the government was not conducting a limited liability war. They took very great care to leave that impression, and each one of them used the word "complacency". The government "doth protest too much, methinks".
Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to reopen the old sores of the campaign or to expect an explanation of many of the statements which were made at that time but which to this date have not been satisfactorily explained. However, since I have been sitting in the house, two points have been raised by my leader, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson), which have not yet been satisfactorily answered by the government. I refer first to the suggestion made by my leader that some drastic alterations of plans were
made on those three crucial days, September 3, 4 and 5. Hon. members must realize that we had and still have a very capable general staff, and I think it will be agreed that it was inconceivable that the general staff did not have some plan, some mobilization order or some scheme prepared, the orders and blue prints of which were in operation or in existence, to be used in the event of hostilities breaking out.
As I am informed, this plan called for the immediate concentration of four divisions: one at Camp Borden, one at Yalcartier, one at Sarcee, one elsewhere, and a very considerable concentration of artillery and ancillary troops at Petawawa. On September 3 the royal engineers in Toronto immediately began the purchase of large amounts of equipment, lumber and other supplies for huts and other buildings to be erected at Camp Borden. Work was carried on through the night of September 3, a Sunday, and again on the following Monday. On the Monday afternoon, that day being Labour day, a drastic change was ordered by Ottawa. Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment had been ordered and sent to its destination, but nothing more was done. That equipment lay at Camp Borden for several months. The 300 carpenters who had been hired went up to Camp Borden, but were discharged shortly afterwards. The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) will have to show why that plan was altered. Otherwise, the militia department must have been working under an entirely erroneous conception for those three days. I happen to have seen the material so I know of what I speak.
The present leader of the opposition brought up the matter of faulty gas masks and his statement was absolutely and categorically denied by the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers). As a member of this house I naturally took his word to be true, but quite by accident I happened to meet a friend of mine who had soldiered with me. In the course of a casual conversation he asked me if I had heard about the 90,000 gas masks which had to be got rid of, and I said, "No." He told me that they had had to be sent back to the manufacturer because they were not suitable for the new type of gas which had been perfected. I questioned him further about this because he had no possible opportunity of seeing Hansard. I contend that his is a statement which will require an answer from the Minister of National Defence.
I have some knowledge of chemical warfare and I understand that this new gas is one of the hydrocarbons, similar to carbon monoxide

War Appropriation-Mr. Adamson
As hon. members who have worn gas masks will know, the hydrocarbons are not filterable by an ordinary respirator. Carbon monoxide has not been used because it dissipates rapidly into the air, but apparently this new gas has been perfected. This is a matter of grave importance, and I think the Minister of National Defence should tell us whether the situation has been satisfactorily cleared up. Perhaps hon. members will be interested to know something of the pathology of these two types of gases. I should like to quote Doctor Axel Hdser, the famous Swedish expert on Experimental Pathology:
Certain poison gases specifically attack the terminal organs-
That is the nerve ganglia. He continues:
The action of phosgene on the finest ramifications of the pneumo-gastric nerves which surround the alveoli is somewhat different. The patient himself is not aware of it. By the action of the gas on the nerve extremities the walls of the alveoli, which separate the capillary vessels from the air cells, become porous and the blood serum begins to filter into the alveoli, till air can no longer penetrate to provide the red corpuscles with their oxygen.
And further:
Asphyxiating gases cause loss of oxygen by preventing the entry of air into the blood. Other gases produce the same effect differently; carbon monoxide, for instance, attacks the red corpuscles and combines with haemoglobin so as to prevent its ordinary function of absorbing oxygen and carrying it into all the organs. The patient then succumbs to internal asphyxia, the lungs remaining full of oxygen but the blood being badly provided with it. Carbon monoxide, however, owing to its low density, is only employed in special circumstances as a war gas.
As I understand it, the improvement in this hydrocarbon gas is such that new respirator filters must be employed. I should like the Minister of National Defence to clear this matter up.


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Mr. Speaker, I am a new member here and I do not know if I may ask the hon. member a question. I may be out of order, but I should like to ask him if the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) is supposed to know what gas will be used to-morrow?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes, that is his job.


George Alexander Cruickshank: To-morrow?


Agar Rodney Adamson: He categorically denied that this had happened. I merely bring this up to outline the situation, and I am sure the Minister of National Defence will be able to clarify it. The matter is so serious that I thought it was worth while bringing it to the attention of this house.

We are facing an extremely grave situation. W e are up against an entirely new type of warfare. None of us in this house has experienced this particular type of warfare before.
It is my opinion that we should take immediate steps to organize the country on the best basis for overseas service and home defence. We are not sure from where or how the next blow will fall. I suggest that in view of the terrible peril in which we are to-day,, the recruiting of a third division is completely inadequate.
I suggest that the government take stock of the entire Canadian picture and tiy to produce those troops for which we in Canada have a peculiar genius. My riding is one of the largest railway ridings in Canada and railroad men come to me and ask why a railway corps cannot be organized. They talk about the wonderful work of Canadian railway troops at the battle of Vimy ridge. This was perhaps the best example up to that time or since of the splendid coordination of all arms of the service-air, railway, transport, infantry and artillery. It was the first occasion on which all arms of the service operated together and started moving at a certain zero hour. I think the organization of a railway troops corps should be proceeded with immediately.
There is another matter. We in Canada are peculiarly blessed in having a great number of highly trained hard-rock miners. In South Africa all the mining is done by natives, but we have skilled miners and tunnelers who are familiar with all types of rock and earth conditions. That presents a unique opportunity; for not only are our miners accustomed to working under different conditions as between one camp and another, but conditions often vary substantially from one end of a camp to the other. I suggest that the government utilize the services of these highly skilled men. Here we have an industry that has built and perfected a great number of new tools to suit conditions in Canada. Certainly we do not know what type of warfare we may have to meet in the coming months or the coming years; but we do know that a great part of Europe is mountainous and rocky, and a corps of expert miners, trained in the use of power tools and hard-rock equipment, would be a tremendous asset if we were called upon to fight in Italy or in some of the Balkan states. I make that suggestion to the government in all sincerity.
Another suggestion I have to make is with regard to mountaineer troops. At the outbreak of war the Canadian Amateur Ski Association sent word to all ski clubs and to all its branches and posts and received an

War Appropriation-Mr. Adamson
absolutely unanimous 100 per cent reply from young men trained as skiers, many of them trained in the art of mountaineering. They offered themselves unreservedly to serve their country in time of peril. After recent events I do not have to tell members of this house what a tremendous advantage a trained corps of mountaineer troops would be to Canada. If invasion should unfortunately come to our shores, we have mountains and we have snow, and we will need such troops. I suggest, therefore, that the government take steps to train a corps of mountaineer troops in the shortest possible time.
I come now to the tanks. Here again we have in Canada a great number of loggers, men used to driving heavy trucks and heavy transports, men used to driving mining and logging trains in our great north country. They are almost trained now as tank drivers. They are used to picking their way across country; they understand heavy machinery and how to work it. One of the most serious criticisms that can be levelled against the present administration in view of recent events in the low countries is that we have not a great tank corps here in Canada. That is something we could have built up. It would perhaps take time to build aeroplane engines, but we have steel mills and the great automobile industry, which has built caterpillar tractors. We have men who have operated them and who could do so again. I wish some member of the government could rise in his place and tell me, "We have a thousand tanks. We have begun to establish a great tank corps." Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to hear the government say that we have tanks at the present time and that we are operating them. But in Oshawa to-day a tank battalion is being trained, and it uses a piece of rope carried between two men to represent a tank. That is almost as severe an indictment against the government as anything I know.
To make matters worse, in Toronto we organized a charity to help train tank troops. It was called the armoured troops fund. It was a public charity, not for the purpose of providing socks or comforts for the troops training at Camp Borden, but to provide equipment for tank units, research and development of actual vehicles of war. I quote from the prospectus of the fund:
For further research and development of apparatus utilizing "electric eye" for use with miniature range enabling indoor gunnery training of superior value to be given at low cost with high degree of safety.
For further development of a "light-projector" gun for gunnery training in tanks or vehicles
across country. This apparatus enables observation of fire under field conditions without the use of ammunition.
For research and development of a simple and sturdy two-way radio telephone set. At present only ^ two expensive British standard sets are available. A technician has already been sent to Camp Borden to assist in the design and when plans and specifications and a model set are prepared the defence department will be asked to furnish them.
For research and development of a basic training vehicle, a vehicle having the general characteristics of the tank on which training may be given in driving, maintenance, gunnery and practice without wearing out the standard tank equipment, to be constructed using commercial truck chassis and standard parts as far as possible.
There was a considerable amount of other equipment. The ironical thing about it all is that at the bottom of the circular appears this statement underlined:
Donations to the fund wall be exempt from income tax up to fifty per cent of the net taxable income.
Hon. members will be lucky if we have any income to be taxed on unless we do better than we are doing at ithe present time.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Would the hon. member permit me to ask a question?


Agar Rodney Adamson: Certainly.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I understand that during my absence my hon. friend made some reference to a considerable number of gas masks which had had to be discarded. I am very sorry that I was not in my seat. He will understand that it was not possible, because I was engaged on other important business; but if he would not mind repeating his statement, I should be very glad to deal with it now.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The statement I made was this, that in reply to the leader of the opposition, who stated that some 90,000 gas masks had had to be discarded, the hon. minister made a categorical denial that this was done. I happened to have met one of the troops at the gas training school who served with .me. Obviously he had not seen Hansard. His statement, "Did you hear about the 90,000 gas masks which had to be sent back to the manufacturer?" rather startled me, in view of the categorical denial given by the minister to the statement of the leader of the opposition. I questioned him further, and he said that a new type of gas has been perfected and is now in use. Apparently it is one of the new hydrocarbon compounds such as carbon monoxide. I happen to know that carbon monoxide will penetrate the old-fashioned gas mask, and I was interested enough in the matter to bring it up for the purpose of obtaining a statement from the

War Appropriation-Mr. Adamson
minister, because I myself was through the gas school last summer and received gas instruction at camp Niagara, so I happen to know that these hydrocarbons are a filterable gas, they cannot be stopped by the filter which is in use.


Norman McLeod Rogers: If my hon. friend will permit me; I know he wishes to be fair, and I wish to be equally fair with him. The statement as made by the leader of the opposition was one which I felt ought to be dealt with at the time. The leader of the opposition stated that a very large number of these gas masks had had to be discarded. I said that that statement was incorrect. I afterwards confirmed my statement by discussion with the master general of the ordnance, who, as my hon. friend is aware, is responsible for the manufacture of gas masks. I am sure my hon. friend will understand that it is not always possible to give complete information in a matter of that kind at this time. But I was perfectly correct in stating, as I did at the time, that the statement made by the leader of the opposition was not accurate.
The truth of the matter is that certain of the components of the container of the gas mask had to be changed in accordance with a change in actual conditions. As my hon. friend is well aware, that has been done and the gas masks have not had to be discarded. Originally the gas masks were made to war office specifications, and the change was made just as soon as possible.
I may say that I have a report in connection with the entire matter from the master general of the ordnance, which report I shall be pleased to place before the leader of the opposition to-morrow at his' convenience. I felt that it was in the interests of the house that I should deal at once with the matter which has been raised here to-night.


Mr. HANSON (York^unbury):: The only difficulty is that my statement was too sweeping. There was in fact some basis for the inference in view of the change that has been necessary to meet the present situation.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I shall be very glad indeed to place the whole situation before my hon. friend.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think it would have been better if my hon. friend had given me the information yesterday if he had it. Perhaps he did not have it.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I had not the entire information before me, but I had enough to warrant my saying that the statement was not correct.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon. minister is pretty sweeping in his denials.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The statement made is not
correct.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am delighted to get the true story, and I shall be interested in knowing what has happened in connection with this matter. The house, I think, is in a better position now that the situation has been cleared up and it knows the facts. I hope that as the session goes on, any inquiries of or any differences we have with the Minister of National Defence will be dealt with as quickly and as suitably as this one has been.
In conclusion, I merely want to say this, that I am in deadly earnest. We have no time to waste. This is a matter of hours. The government should be prepared to take emergency measures instantly, not to wait; because if we fail, if the lights are put out on this parliament hill, the next time a parliament is here assembled, the government will have a majority of about 99-8 per cent; there will be but one speech, and before that speech is given, hon. members, all being in uniform, will raise their right hands in salute, and shout two words which God forbid should ever be uttered in this chamber.
On motion of Mr. Kuhl the debate was
adjourned.



VETERANS HOME GUARDS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): I wish to advise the house that it has been decided to establish immediately a force to be known as the "Veterans Home Guards", for the more adequate protection of military property or for any other purpose that may be found necessary in Canada. The force at the outset shall consist of twelve companies, to be expanded if circumstances so require, distributed across Canada and under the military district in which they are located. Each company shall be in command of an officer of the rank of major, and shall consist of 250 all ranks.
The district officer commanding shall in each case be responsible for the organization of any of such companies within his district. He will deal with all applications and shall have full control over the operations of such companies within the geographical limits of his military district.
The members of the said force shall be recruited from persons who served in the armed forces of Canada or the United King-

Royal Canadian Air Force
dom in the war of 1914-1918, and shall include persons in categories "A", "B" and "C" up to the age of fifty years. They shall receive pay and allowances according to the rates at present in force for the Canadian active service force.
Richard Burpee Hanson: I congratulate the minister upon yielding to public opinion; and may I ask him if the officers will be selected by the district officer commanding in each district, or will they be appointed by the department here?


Norman McLeod Rogers: The intention is that the district officers commanding shall have the responsibility of organizing these various units. It is understood that they will select the officers from the reserve of officers, and in every instance they shall see that the officers so chosen have had active service in the last war.


Howard Charles Green: Does that mean that there will be a total of only 3,000 in all Canada?


Norman McLeod Rogers: I have gone into the matter most carefully with the officers of the Department of National Defence, and it is the belief that at the outset this will provide a sufficient body for the purpose indicated. It is already stated in the announcement I have made that it will be expanded as circumstances require.


Mr. COCKERAM:: How is it proposed to arm them?


Norman McLeod Rogers: This will be a military force in every sense of the word, and it will be uniformed and armed as a military force.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Friday, May 24, 1940