1940-05-22

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
*AIIi MINISTRY
['I would say that the matters mentioned would be covered by any inquiry into the defence of Canada\n\nQuestions as Orders for Returns\nregulations. If my hon, friend feels that they are not I shall be glad to deal with the matter further when we come to the motion itself.']
Mr. CHURCH:: Will the government give immediate consideration to the creation of a separate air ministry for Canada to control war and civil aviation and empire air work?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: This question, as my hon. friend will have noticed, has been answered by action already taken.



Thomas Langton Church: Will the government give consideration to a national mortgage moratorium under the war measures or other act for the period of the war and one year after, to prevent extortionate rates in war time on mortgages?


Mr. RALSTON:: This question relates to a matter of policy and it is not usual for the government to make statements on matters of policy in giving replies to questions.
law AND PARLLAMENTARY REFORM


Thomas Langton Church: Will consideration be given to the appointment of a select committee of the house to consider the whole subject of law reform in Canada, a revision of the criminal code, imprisonment for debt in Canada and parliamentary reform and the question of setting up-estimate committees?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: I do not. know whether I should say that this matter is being considered. I do not think there is any chance of its being done this session.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Answered.


Thomas Langton Church: The line of least resistance again.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT, 1939-RECEIPTS-FROM ONE PER CENT GRAIN TAX
Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	How much money, by provinces, has the government received to date from the 1 per cent tax on all grains of the 1939 crop, under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939?
2.	What further amount is expected to be received on this account, by provinces?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Amount collected by provinces under Prairie Farm Assistance Act, deducted by licensees up to and including March 31, 1940, and received by the board of grain commissioners: Manitoba, $307,418.46; Saskatchewan, $1,166,586.73; Alberta, S628,249.31. Total $2,102,254.50.
2.	Impossible to estimate further amounts to be received.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT, 1939-AMOUNT LOANED TO BONUS FUND
Mr. PERLEY:: .
1.	How much has the government loaned to the bonus fund provided for under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939?
2.	What further amount is expected to be loaned to this fund?
3.	How does the government expect to recover the amount loaned to this fund?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Under authority of order in council P.C. ' 4172, dated December 14, 1939: $5,000,000. Under authority of order in council P.C. 880, dated February 29, 1940: $4,000,000.
2.	Nil.
3.	The Prairie Farm Assistance Act does not
provide for the repayment of amounts advanced to the prairie farm emergency fund except through collection of the 1 per cent levy provided under the act.
Questions

1941 CENSUS Mr. CHURCH:
1.	Will a census be taken in 1941, and on what basis?
2.	Will the list of questions to be asked be tabled ?
3.	What new additions have been decided on?
4.	Will consideration be given to enlarge on
the questions to be asked to include:	(a) a
survey for national emergency purposes and national defence; (b) regarding real estate and housing and mortgages and rates of interest charged therein and rent charged; (c) service of those on active service?
5.	Will- any reports or information in this regard be tabled for the information of the house ?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Yes, (see Statistics Act, 1918, chapter 190, sections 16 to 19).
2,	3, 4 and 6. Final decisions as to details have not been reached.


APPLES PROCESSED UNDER AGREEMENT WITH FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	What price was paid by the Canadian companies for apples to be processed under agreement with the Canadian government in: (a) Nova Scotia, and (b) Ontario?
2.	What price was realized for the finished
products from:	(a) Nova Scotia, and (b)
Ontario ?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	(a) For 34 selected varieties, No. 1 grade, 24" up, $1.69 per barrel; No. 1 grade, 24"-24", $1.51 per barrel; Domestics, 24" up, $1.24 per barrel; Domestics, 24"-24", $1.03 per barrel. For unnamed varieties, 25 cents less in each case.
Ob) None processed under agreement with the Canadian government.
2.	(a) Estimated sales to May 15 at various prices for pre-war and post-war contracts overseas and in Canada:-543,967 cases canned apples, net return $826,599; 48,491 cases dried apples, net return $168,851.
(b) Answered by 1 (b).


GULL BAY INDLAN RESERVATION-PULPWOOD SALES
Mr. MacNICOL:: 1.	Was any pulpwood sold from the Gull oay Indian reservation or lake Nipigon during the years 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, and 1940?
2.	What was the cordage of pulpwood sold in each or any of the said years?
3.	What amount was received therefor?
4.	What were the names and addresses of purchasers?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	1936-37-No.
1937-	38-Yes.
1938-	39-No.
1939-	40-Yes.

2.	1937-38-2,944.57 cords.
1939-40-3.800 cords (estimated).
3.	1937-38-$14,722.85.
1939-40-Contract incomplete. Returns not yet received.
4.	1937-38-Abitibi Power & Paper Co., Port
Arthur, Ontario.
1939-40-Abitibi Power & Paper Co., Port Arthur, Ontario.


FISH TRAPS AND FISHING ON PACIFIC COAST- REPORT OF JUDGE SLOAN
Mr. NEILL:: 1.	Has the report of Judge Sloan, regarding fish traps and fishing in the Gulf of Georgia, been received yet?
2.	If so, when will it be laid on the table of the house ?


Mr. MICHAUD:: 1.	Yes.
2.	As soon as printing, now in progress, is completed.


SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES-ANTI-ALLY PROPAGANDA
Thomas Langton Church: Will the government give consideration to the appointment of a committee of the house to investigate all adverse anti-allies propaganda carried on in Canada by the so-called fifth army and those who are pro-German and pro-Russian, as well as American channels in the air and the distribution of certain American press publications carrying items detrimental to the cause of our allies.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think this question is answered in part if not in whole by the motion which appears in my name with respect to the appointment of a select committee of the house to study and report upon the defence of Canada regulations. If this answer does not satisfy my hon. friend I should be glad to confer with him as to what further powers he might wish the committee to have.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: I suggest to the right hon. gentleman that the questions of United States channels in the air and the distribution of certain United States publications carrying items detrimental to the cause of the allies are very important in the matter of propaganda, and consideration might be given those matters in connection with this committee. Of course if you go on enlarging the scope of the committee it will have to deal with a great many things, but these are important matters and some consideration might be given them.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would say that the matters mentioned would be covered by any inquiry into the defence of Canada

Questions as Orders for Returns
regulations. If my hon, friend feels that they are not I shall be glad to deal with the matter further when we come to the motion itself.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many foreign legations has Canada
abroad?		 ,
2.	Who are the heads of each legation, who are the staff in each case and what are their salaries and other allowances?
3.	What has been the cost of each legation since its inception to the end of 1939, for (a) capital, and (b) maintenance?
4.	What trade commissioners, and at what cost, has Canada in each of these legation countries?
5.	What new legations have been opened since January 1, 1939, what is the staff in each case, and their respective salaries and allowances, and what amount, if any, of the one hundred million dollars voted for war in September was spent on such work?
6.	What training have these men for diplomacy and who instructs and trains them as diplomats ?
7.	Are any of them returned soldiers, and whom?


PENITENTIARIES COMMISSION
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	When was the prison commission appointed?
2.	What was its cost for salaries, fees, hotel and travelling expenses and all other emoluments paid to everyone connected with it?
3.	When was the report received?
4.	Have any of its recommendations been
carried out?	.
5.	When will the commission be appointed and function?
6.	What is the cause of the delay?
7. Who are the present chief heads of this branch of the service and what training have they for work of this nature?
8.	When will the Borstal system be installed?


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT, 1939-PAYMENTS ON ACREAGE BONUS
Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	What amount has been paid by the government on account of the acreage bonus provided for under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939, (a) by provinces; (b) by municipalities?
2.	How much more does the government expect to pay on account of the acreage bonus for the year 1939?



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION ACT-EXPENDITURES

Ernest Edward Perley: What was the total amount spent under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act in the province of Saskatchewan during the year 1939, on the following projects; (a) dug-outs; (b) community pastures; (c) conservation dams; (d) Moose Jaw water project; (e) Saskatoon dam; (f) on all other projects?



WAR SUPPLIES-PRICES OF FOODSTUFFS

Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	Has any agreement been entered into between the war supply board or any department of the Canadian government and the meat packing firms of Canada, defining the basis upon which prices are to be determined for beef, pork, mutton, lamb, lard or other foodstuff supplied by such firms to His Majesty's troops in Canada?
2.	What prices were paid for each of these items furnished to His Majesty's troops in Canada during the first month of the war?



SALES OF INDIAN RESERVATION LANDS

Mr. MacNICOL:: 1.	Have any Indian reservation lands been sold by the Department of Indian Affairs during the years 1937, 1938, 1939, and 1940?
2.	If so, from what Indian reservations were the lands sold and the acreage sold from each reservation?
3.	What was the value of each sale?


Mr. CRERAR:: Return tabled.



DOMINION-PROVINCIAL RELATIONS COMMISSION

Mr. SENN:: 1.	What was the total, itemized cost of the royal commission on dominion-provincial relations?
2.	What salary, travelling expenses or allowances were paid each of the four commissioners?
3.	What	salary	and	other	payments	were
made to the counsel of the commission?
4.	What	salary	and	other	payments	were
made to members of the commission staff, by name?
5.	What	salary	and	other	payments	weremade to experts, by name, employed by the commission	to make special	studies for its
information?



ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE-DISPOSITION OF ROCKCLIFFE STATION

Mr. SENN:: 1.	Is the Royal Canadian Air Force station at Rockcliffe, Ottawa, being abandoned for training purposes?
2.	If not, what are the precise plans for use of that field?
3.	What are the plans for enlargement and development of the Uplands air field, near Ottawa, as to obtaining more land, erection of buildings and training?
4.	What has been the cost to date of work undertaken at Uplands field by the Trans-Canada Air Lines and, separately, by the government, and how much more money does the government plan to spend on this, and for what exact purposes?
lie
Motions jor Papers



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all orders to military districts regarding recruiting, together with a copy of rules and regulations issued under the Militia or Army Acts.



CANNING OF CANADIAN APPLES

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MeGREGOR:
For a copy of all agreements entered into between the government of Canada, the Canadian Department of Agriculture and any of the canning companies of Canada, relating to the processing or canning of Canadian apples. Also a copy of any orders in council providing for the canning or processing of that portion of the Canadian apple crop which could not be disposed of otherwise.
Mr. MeGREGOR:
For a copy of any agreement or agreements entered into between the Department of Agriculture or any other department of government and the canning companies of Canada, or each individual canning company, providing for canning, evaporating or otherwise processing Canadian apples. Also a statement showing the names of those with whom such contracts were negotiated.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MeGREGOR:
For a copy of all agreements entered into between the government of Canada, the Canadian Department of Agriculture, the Canadian bacon board or any other governmental body and the British government, the British supply board or any organization in Great Britain, relating to the price to be paid for Canadian exports of pork products to Great Britain, and for the amount of such products to be shipped to Great Britain. Also a copy of all letters, telegrams,, correspondence, orders in council and other documents exchanged between the above mentioned governments or organizations representing them, relating thereto.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MeGREGOR:
For a copy of all agreements entered into between the government of Canada, the Canadian Department of Agriculture, the Canadian bacon board, or any other organization appointed by the government of Canada and the Canadian council of meat packers, or any or all of the Canadian meat packing firms, relating to the price to be paid the Canadian farmer for live or dressed hogs. Also a copy of all letters, telegrams, orders in council and other documents in the possession of the government, relating thereto.

Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all correspondence, letters,
telegrams, cables and agreements exchanged between the government of Canada, the Soviet government of Russia, the American Trading fMr. Senn.l
Corporation of New York, the Soviet government representatives in America and Sincennes-McNaughton Tugs, Limited, of Montreal, or any other corporations or persons, regarding the sale of two tugs or ice breakers known as the Bonsecours and the Bon Voyage, of Montreal, to Russia for use as ice breakers for war and commercial purposes, including all correspondence of the Department of External Affairs on the matter, along with protests received by that department in connection therewith.



CANADIAN BACON BOARD

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MeGREGOR:
For a copy of the order in council which provided for the appointment of a Canadian bacon board, along with a statement showing the power conferred upon such board.

Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence, communications and other documents exchanged between all officials and employees in any department of the government in Yukon Territory and elsewhere in 1939 and 1940, concerning a chiropractor in said territory and the prosecution of said chiropractor.



WAR SUPPLIES


Mr. ESLING:: For a return showing all orders for clothing (including uniforms, underwear, socks and boots) issued by the National Defence Department and/or the War Supply Board during the months of June, July, August and September, 1939, with the date of the order and time of delivery; also the name of the party who negotiated with the department and/or the board for the order, and the name of the party or firm to whom the order was issued; also the number of units and the price per unit, and the total amount of the order; also stating whether the order was in the form of a contract or direct order.



PRODUCTION IN CANADA OF AEROPLANES AND AEROPLANE PRODUCTS

Mr. ADAMSON:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other memoranda between the Curtiss-Wright Aeroplane and Motor Corporation and the director of aircraft supply, the War Supply Board and the Department of National Defence offering to manufacture aeroplanes and aeroplane products in Canada; also a copy of memoranda submitted to the director of aircraft supply during December, 1939, in connection with the subject.


Agar Rodney Adamson: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, and memoranda, exchanged between officials of the United Aircraft Corporation or any of its subsidiaries in Canada, more particularly the Canadian Pratt and Whitney, and officials of the National Defence Department and the War Supply Board during 1938 and 1939 in regard to the manufacture of aeroplanes, aerial motors and other aeroplane products in Canada by the said companies.

Subversive Activities



EMERGENCY POWERS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day are called I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King). At to-day's sitting of the British parliament, in view of the emergency conditions existing, there was introduced and enacted into law a bill giving the government sweeping emergency powers with respect to the control of persons, wealth and property. May I ask the Prime Minister if he and the administration have given consideration to the necessity and the desirability of the government in Canada having similar authority?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen the text of the bill referred to, and I presume my hon. friend has given to the house what came over the press wires this morning. I may say that this government has given consideration to measures of a sweeping character that may be necessary; but beyond saying that I cannot say more until I have seen the United Kingdom legislation itself.



RURAL FAIRS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ROBERT FAIR (Battle River):: Mr. Speaker, may I read to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) a telegram I have just received. It is dated at Vermilion, Alberta, May 21, and is in the following words:
Vermilion agricultural society have sent today to Hon. Mr. Gardiner telegram protesting against withdrawal of federal grant to B Fairs. Heavy obligations already contracted in anticipation of grant Will mean serious loss to society and discontinuance of fair against which farmers are protesting. Asking that grant be continued for this year and agree to its being withheld next year or for continuance of war.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Georges Parent: The hon. member has read the contents of the telegram; he should now state his question.


Robert Fair: I thought it better to read the telegram first. My question is this: Will the government be good enough to reconsider this
question and place a vote in the estimates, so that these grants may be paid at least during this year?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture):: Full information with regard to grants to fairs will be given when the estimates are brought down, within the next few days.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Arising out of what has just been read to the house may I suggest to hon. members that where possible they refrain from asking, on the orders of the day, questions of which the government has had no prior notice. If questions are not very important and the answers are not imperative,
I would ask that hon. members have them inserted on the order paper, and thereby save a considerable amount of time.


Robert Fair: I had given notice to the Minister of Agriculture this morning.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I was aware that the hon. member had given notice to the minister, but I doubt very much whether the question he has just put was important enough to warrant taking up, particularly at this very critical moment, the amount of time it has taken for him to read the telegram.



SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe). In view of the serious situation which has developed in France since the minister gave his reply to my question on Monday last, will the minister please tell the house if he is now prepared to take a more realistic view of the situation and take immediate steps-


An hon. MEMBER:: Sit down.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Ernest Lapointe: Thank you-for the lecture.

National Defence-Home Guards



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question which I believe would refer to the departments under the supervision of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers) and the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada (Mr. Lapointe). I have before me a large number of requests from municipalities throughout Canada indicating that they would like in days such as these to have the protection of a home guard, and they want to know whether the government will give the necessary statutory authority to act and organize. If action were taken I believe amendments would be required to the criminal code; or it could be through the War Measures Act or the Militia Act. In this way the home guards would be given official recognition and would be in a position to give very valuable service in the municipalities in the matter of home defence and cooperate fully in that regard with the federal authority.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence):	Mr. Speaker, the
matter to which my hon. friend refers is receiving the attention of the departments concerned.



CREATION OF AIR MINISTRY-ADDITIONAL DEPUTY MINISTERS FOR MILITARY, NAVAL AND AIR SERVICES

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of Bill No. 15, to amend the Department of National Defence Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
On Section 1-Definitions.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I hope it will be possible to have this bill passed speedily, among other considerations to suit the convenience of another house which is now sitting but may be adjourning shortly.


Richard Burpee Hanson: To-day? Mr. MACKENZIE KING: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Let us
have some discussion on it, though. Of course we have agreed to the bill in principle, but I understand it has not yet been distributed. As a matter of fact it has just now reached the chamber. I realize, as the Prime Minister has said, that there is a necessity for action, 
but surely we should have a little time so that hon. members may read the bill. I have read it and I know what is in it, but it may ^ be that some others are not in that position.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I believe every feature of importance in the bill was discussed on the resolution which preceded it. Perhaps if the sections were read, one by one, we would meet that difficulty.


Richard Burpee Hanson: One
thought which occurs to me is that the name suggested is not a good one. Certainly it is not euphonious. May I suggest the consideration of something like this: Minister of Air Defence.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government has given careful consideration to the best designation for the minister. It was felt that reserving the title of Minister of National Defence in connection with the minister holding that office for air would make clear the immediate relationship of the two ministers; to defence. The other two branches of the defence service would be under the Minister of National Defence himself. In drafting the measure the government has had in mind the possibility that once the war is over and after a lapse of six months, it might be thought advisable to have this particular measure repealed. If desired, reversion could immediately be made to the original statute.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: I realize that explanatory notes are not necessary in connection with the different clauses, but I do not see why we could not follow the same nomenclature as is followed at Westminster. Then the department would have a distinct name and it would have distinct functions. We should have a real department which would be ready to give some action to our effort. In the absence of explanatory notes, perhaps the Prime Minister would be kind enough to elaborate his statement as to the functions of this department.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With regard to what my hon. friend has said about Westminster, there they have, as he has just said, three separate departments. The government does not contemplate, at any rate at present, having three departments; it prefers to keep the three branches of the service correlated and coordinated under one minister, as, since the beginning of the war, has been found advisable in England. However, full responsibility will be given to the Minister of Defence for Air with respect to all defence matters immediately pertaining to the air branch of defence. There is no exact parallel

National Defence-Air Ministry
to the situation at Westminster, for the reason I have given. To all intents and purposes, however, the functions of the Minister of Defence for Air in Canada will be the same as those of the minister for air in Great Britain.


Joseph Henry Harris: It seems to me that this department will be a sort of lean-to of the Department of National Defence. Surely the new minister will not be answerable to the Minister of National Defence. I understand fully that there will have to be cooperation, but to my mind the new minister is being placed in a category where he will be more or less answerable to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), who in turn is answerable to this house. I should like to see a department created which would have the necessary energy and enthusiasm to carry out a job of work which is of great moment at the present time. The impression should not be given to the country that the minister in charge of this department will be subordinate to the Minister of National Defence.
I hesitate to make a suggestion, but from my observations of many years I know the energy and enthusiasm with which the new minister designate will carry on the affairs of this particular department, and he should be answerable to no one except this parliament. I know he is capable of demonstrating to us from his place in this house that he is doing his part in the administratiion of this department. I would be sorry to see him put in a position which would make him subordinate to the Minister of National Defence, for whom I have a good deal of respect. I want to see him rise in his place in the house and give us some action about which we can become enthusiastic, something about which we can brag in the face of world conditions to-day, something that we can broadcast to the civilized world. We should be able to tell everybody that we have a Department of Defence for Air which is second to none. The Prime Minister has a man who is capable of inspiring the confidence of the Canadian people. Let the right hon. gentleman give him full rein and let him inspire us in Canada. He should lead the way so that Canada can make a real contribution toward relieving the difficult situation under which civilization is labouring at the present time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I thank my hon. friend for his warm appreciation of the government's selection of my colleague, the present Postmaster General (Mr. Power), for this particular post. Perhaps I cannot better describe what we expect of him and what we intend he should do than by saying that
my hon. friend himself has described that perfectly. There is no intention that there shall be any subordination of the Minister of Defence for Air to the Minister of National Defence. There are three branches of the defence service, the navy, the army and the air arm. These three services are in many respects interdependent and interwoven. Some question affecting all three may come up which will require a final wTord on the part of someone. I doubt very much if a question of the kind is likely to arise between the Minister of National Defence for Air and the present Minister of National Defence, but should there be an occasion where some authority must give the final word on any matter of inter-relation between the departments, the Minister of National Defence would have the responsibility for that final word. I might say that this has been found necessary in practice in Great Britain since the war commenced. As my hon. friend knows, there were three separate services there and as matters developed it became necessary to give Mr. Churchill general supervision over the three branches. We are making it clear now that on questions that are interrelated, when a final word is necessary it will be given by the Minister of National Defence.


Joseph Henry Harris: I quite appreciate the necessity of having it come from the Department of National Defence. I am trying to speak from my experience, gained by absorption, if by no other means, after sitting in this house for a long time. I think I know the Minister of Defence for Air designate and how he will apply himself to this task. I know he will do it well, and in these times of stress and strain I hope the estimates of the Department of Defence for Air will be brought down separately from those of the Department of National Defence. I notice a smile on the countenance of the Minister of National Defence, but let me say to him that the new Minister of Defence for Air was in this house long before he was. To my mind he should be charged with responsibility and he should not be able to get out of that responsibility by leaning on the Minister of National Defence. Let us hold him to his job, because he can take it. I have sat here and looked at him for the last nineteen years. He can take it; he is good enough. I should like to ask if the estimates of the Department of Defence for Air will be presented separately from those of the Department of National Defence. I should like to know also if the new minister will be answerable for his estimates.
I give him one other question to ponder over while he is considering these matters.

National Defence-Air Ministry
I do not need to tell him what to do because we know he is a man who is looking forward all the time. He is not looking backward. It may be thought there is some insinuation in that statement, and in case hon. members do not understand that insinuation 'I will particularize. I say to my hon. friend, the Minister of National Defence, and I couple with him the Prime Minister: The Canadian people are not in a mood at the present time to listen to a history of what has occurred since war was declared; they are more in a mood to insist upon being given-


The CHAIRMAN:: May I draw the hon.
member's attention to a rule which it is well to keep in mind. I did not wish to interrupt him, but it might be useful, to new members particularly, if I were to remind the hon. gentleman that any member addressing the house or the committee must address himself to the chair.


Joseph Henry Harris: I bow to your
ruling, Mr. Chairman. I had the rapt attention of the Prime Minister for once, and also that of the Minister of National Defence. I would not suggest that they hypnotized me, but I could not turn from them seeing that they were listening so attentively to what I had to say. I bow to your ruling and I say to you, Mr. Chairman, that the Canadian people are not so much concerned with the history of what has taken place in the last seven or eight months or in the last few years; they are greatly concerned about what is going to happen during the next few months while this house is in session. We have often heard hon. members say that the Canadian people want action. I believe they do want action, and in all our deliberations in this honourable assembly would it not be well for us Canadians to brag a little-I use that for want of a better word-to the world at large about the great effort that we are making?
In the consideration of this bill would it not be wise if it went out from this house to-day that in the setting-up of this air ministry we are taking full advantage of our geographical position and establishing ourselves as the greatest unit that could possibly avail itself of the broad expanses of Canada in the development of this new science that has made such strides in the last two decades in all air activities? Should we not make it known that we are taking steps to dominate the military situation which has forced itself upon us by the conditions and the ideas that have emerged, in this civilization, from peoples not akin to ourselves, who have resorted to ruthless force and cruelty? Should we not make it known that we are going to 
put all our energy into activities of the same sort with a view to taking full advantage of the opportunities before us?
We have a new minister designate. Let us clothe my honourable and gallant friend (Mr. Power) with every possible power that can be given him by statute, and let us also encourage him to grip the imagination of the Canadian people so that the high place which our airmen have won will justify the belief that they will attain a still higher position in that field. They made a great name for themselves in the war some twenty-five years ago, and we should do everything in our power to make the dominance, which we believe they can achieve in this war, a reality.
Do not make the minister subordinate to any other department. Give him a free hand and all the power, money and resources necessary to make our air effort an unqualified success, so that under the aegis of the Minister of National Defence for Air our Canadian flyers may be stimulated to go on from success to success until finally they dominate the situation so far as the air is concerned.
Let me ask the government this question: Will the estimates of the air ministry be separate and will the new minister be answerable for them, or will they be part and parcel of the estimates of the Department of National Defence as a whole? Will the government see to it that the new minister is allowed to carry on with energy and enthusiasm instead of being hamstrung by all sorts of technicalities and by shortness of funds? Will he be allowed to put Canada in the proud place she should occupy in this one particular field, for which she is peculiarly well fitted?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no
question about the estimates; they will be entirely under the Minister of National Defence for Air as regards air matters. As to the intended minister's conception of his duties, opportunities and relations to his colleague, I think perhaps he ought to speak for-himself. If he does not satisfy my hon. friend in his reply we shall have to seek some means to see that he does.


Mr. POWER:: I wish to assure my hon. friend that in so far as the powers, authority and jurisdiction to be conferred upon the new minister are concerned, I have had the privilege of studying the bill. In fact, I had something to do with the drafting of it, and I am quite satisfied that there will be abundant authority and perhaps all too great responsibility on the shoulders of the person who has been designated as Minister of National Defence for Air.
May I thank the members of the committee, and particularly my hon. friend who has just

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spoken, for the -kindly manner in which the news of my appointment has been received. It would be presumptuous for me at this juncture and in this time of crisis to attempt to lay down any specific programme or policy. I can only say that I am fully aware of the magnitude of the task before me. To realize what it means, one has only to reflect for a moment that in the amount of money involved in this joint empire training scheme there are almost as many million dollars as go into the operation of either the Canadian National Railways or the Canadian Pacific Railway, and that we must organize something greater in industry than exists in Canada, comparable, in its scope and in the financial commitments involved, with some of the greatest industries in the United States. When we begin to realize that, even with the start already made by those who have been working on the undertaking for the past several months, the whole organization must be completed within the shortest possible time, and that what took fifty years to build in connection with the railways must be completed in two or three months in connection with this air training scheme, we can understand what is involved. So that I realize the position, and I hope that the house will also realize it and assist me in the work which is before me. I am not asking that hon. members shall spare their punches; rather, let them intensify them if they will; but I take it from what was said by the hon. member who has just spoken that I shall not be asked to indulge in post mortems.


Joseph Henry Harris: No. Go ahead.


Charles Gavan Power: We will look into post
mortems afterwards. For the moment, in this time of crisis, I ask the house to allow the officers of my department and myself to get on with the work as fast as possible. I would ask the officers of the air force to extend the kindliest cooperation to me as to one who is not at all familiar with the technical details of the work. Perhaps I should say in passing that in my utterances in the house I have not given any indication of idolizing members of the staff or the like; but in this instance I should like them to understand that I am fighting with them and for them and am their representative here.
I might add that apart from the empire training scheme there is the Royal Canadian Air Force, on which something like $100,000,000 will be spent during the coming year in its training, in its preparation for overseas service, and in its overseas service. I ask also of the officers and men of that force their kindest consideration and assistance.
Owing to the events of the past few days it is extremely difficult to speak of anything but the urgent, insistent nature of the present crisis. But we would be lacking in hope, we would be lacking in faith, we would be lacking in confidence in our allies in France and in Great Britain if we did not plan, even at this darkest hour, to be able to send assistance to them when they have stabilized the line and are holding the invading hordes. I hope that, if the plan may be considered as a long range plan, the ideas which are already in train for its acceleration may bear fruit, and that meanwhile the Canadian people will be satisfied with the thought that we are endeavouring to the best of our ability to turn out those trained men who will relieve those who at this time are holding the fort and suffering the heat and toil of the day.


Thomas Langton Church: I should like to ask the *minister a question, which, probably, comes within the principle of this bill. There are two bills: one, No. 15, 'the definitions of which we are dealing with now; another, known as the air force bill, which is pretty much the same. What is the division of authority between the ministers? Under this definitions section I should like to find out who will be responsible for one of the most important parts of this air scheme to-day, namely, the defence of the civil population from air raids.
Last session the minister brought down a bill dealing with the Pacific Coast Defence, where virtually all the air defence is, from Puget sound, some 600 miles away, to Queen Charlotte islands and the mainland. The principle of this vote was to protect Canada's neutrality.
It may be better for me to discuss on the third reading the three or four points I have in mind, because, having gone into committee so quickly, we got very short notice of the second reading. But I may say that I raised this matter three or four years ago, at the time of the Abyssinian campaign: on that occasion I said:
As I said in a debate in this house on March 24, 193S, on the defence estimates, Abyssinia was recently a theatre of war-
Just like Canada.
-and we all know the destruction of civilian population that occurred through that means of attack. Abyssinia is an open country with only a small density of population compared with the island of Montreal, the cities of Quebec, Ottawa and Toronto and other parts of Canada. Air raids can work great havoc in time of war, and the menace will be a very real one in Canada, especially to the people of Quebec, the maritime provinces and British Columbia. What are we doing to take care of
National Defence-Air Ministry

the civilian population? Nothing. Aircraft could come up the Ottawa river at a moment's notice. I should like to direct the attention of the Social Credit members to what might happen. An air attack might occur and the whole social credit system be destroyed at a moment's notice. . . .
An aerial bombardment is one of the dangers most to be apprehended in time of war, particularly in large cities with their dense populations. The protection of cities from aerial bombardment should be one of the chief objectives of the national defence department, and proper equipment for defence against this menace should be provided. Large quantities of poisonous gas could easily be spread over a large area, as was done in Abyssinia. Incendiary bombs could be dropped on our large cities with great destruction and slaughter, and the enemy aircraft could get back to their base in practically no time. These attacks would not only bring ruin to our cities and towns, but break the morale of our people and prevent us from developing a proper defence and mobilizing our man power and armaments.
That is what I said on March 24, 1938, but nothing has been done.
Then I asked:
What has been done to protect the civilian population in Canada from awful air raids?
Inasmuch as such attacks could destroy all the public utilities of the large cities of Canada. I said:
One of these days there will be a rude awakening in this country. Hon. members sit in this chamber and listen to one or two speeches by their leaders, and then all they do is say " me too." As far as they are concerned, the people can continue to suffer or lack the security which is better than opulence.
I admit that, technically speaking, these may be matters to discuss on the third reading instead of on the details of the bill which is linked up with the other bill. The minister has brought it down just three years too late. It is two or three years ago since I pleaded for an empire training scheme to train the youth of the high schools and the universities. In connection with the estimates of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers), I asked him, in 1937, 1938 and 1939 to plan an empire air scheme under which youth could sign up for from three to five years' apprenticeship, learn a trade or calling, get food, money and clothing, also deferred pay. In that way we would have accomplished something like Australia and New Zealand have done, where they have a large body of young people fitted to be pilots, and adapt it to national service plans adapted to Canada's circumstances. But that was not done.
In the next place I would like to know whether flying clubs can be extended to include the universities and high school students during the coming summer, the season when so many cannot get seasonal employment. I should also like to find out what has been

done with regard to the application last year of the Toronto board of education, which offered to give the government the use of a large technical school for the air force training scheme. But probably these other matters can be raised on the next step of the bill.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Mr. Chairman, the minister indicated, as I understood it, that his task would come in two parts: first, the provision of the commonwealth air training scheme; second, responsibility for the Royal Canadian Air Force. Will the Prime Minister inform us whether aircraft production will come under this department, or will it continue to be under the jurisdiction of the Department of Munitions and Supply?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Aircraft production will come under the latter department.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Minister of National Defence for Air may be appointed.
Mr. STIRLING:: There are two remarks I desire to make in regard to this whole section. Subsection 2, leaving out the redundant words, reads:
He shall . . . exercise all the powers of the Minister of National Defence and in respect of any matter affecting both the air service and any other service. . . .
Surely there should be some qualification of the word "service" in the second phrase. Does it mean "any defence service"?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Defence service is what is meant.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The word should be inserted.


Grote Stirling: With regard to the rest of subsection 2 and subsection 3, it appears to me to be uncommonly like dual responsibility. I am not suggesting that these two individuals who will now occupy those two positions are in the least likely to fall out in their work, but after all this will become a statute and it appears to me that in other times it might easily happen that dual responsibility would produce an uncomfortable situation.
With regard to the second part of the objection I am raising, I believe it has always been the custom in the past, in the absence of a minister, for one of his colleagues to be delegated to do his work. If that practice were continued, I scarcely see the necessity for subsection 3. The dual responsibility as it is at present written seems to me a matter which should be explained. If there be some veiy strong reason for arranging it in this way I think the reason might be given to us.

National Defence-Air Ministry


Charles Gavan Power: When this bill was drafted we were faced with exactly the difficulty which has been presented to us by the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) and by other hon. members during the course of the debate this afternoon. There is no doubt that it *would be almost a calamity to have three separate and distinct services. It might result, as it did in Great Britain, in bringing about the necessity of having a Minister of Defence on top of them, and then on top of him again a Minister of Coordination. So that we were faced with the problem of having this famous unity in diversity of which so much is said in another sphere of action. It was decided that the Minister of Defence for Air should have exclusive right and jurisdiction so far as air is concerned. As my colleague the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) put it to me when we were discussing this bill, in matters of air you take off your hat to nobody. In matters of the general defence of Canada-take the extreme case of an invasion-it would then be necessary for the Minister of National Defence for Air to consult with the Minister of National Defence as to the manner in which the air force would be placed at the disposal of the Minister of National Defence. If it so happened that they disagreed, then the Minister of National Defence would be the one who would have the final judgment and decision, subject again to the cabinet. Outside of that I do not know of any other contingency in which there would be subordination. But there must be, as I think the committee will recognize, the utmost cooperation.
Fortunately, in this particular instance, at any rate at the inception of the scheme and until Providence or the House of Commons or the people of Canada dispose otherwise, the two persons most interested are able and willing to work in the closest possible cooperation and coordination. My relations with the Minister of National Defence are such that I have no difficulty in working in the closest possible cooperation with him. There are branches of the Department of National Defence which have to do with air; we could not at once effect an absolute separation. Pay services, medical services, legal services, perhaps a half dozen others are examples; if we set up a separate air ministry, all that would have to be changed. It will be worked out quietly, with sufficient expedition and sufficient authority in the air minister to permit him to carry on the duties with which he is being charged by this parliament.
I see the difficulty raised by my hon. friend and were I in his place I would make the same observation. He is familiar with the
proceedings of the cabinet and knows very well that it is quite possible by order in council to appoint an alternate minister or one to act for another minister, and probably my hon. friend the leader of the opposition, able lawyer as he is, will agree that it is bad parliamentary draftsmanship to set out the motive of any piece of legislation in a section of the bill itself. That is what happens in this particular instance, but in order to ensure the coordination of the defence services and the continued administration within the Department of National Defence, the two alternate. That is in order that the principle be preserved that the Department of National Defence has to remain, if possible, as a national defence department. It will be observed that this particular branch or department for air is constituted only as a war-time measure until such time as under the War Measures Act the state of war is declared to be ended and six months thereafter. After that the future of this department will be in the judgment of the parliament and the government of that day. But it was felt that to meet a war-time necessity one man should be charged with the responsibility of carrying out this work of air defence and offense if needs be.


Joseph Henry Harris: Now that the banns have been published, let us get on with the marriage. Let us get on with this job of work that the new minister has to perform. My first question is, may we consider the announcement made yesterday by the Prime Minister as a proclamation that this ministry is now established, or must we wait for a few days until such time as we can have the proclamation issued through the Canada Gazette?
The second question I should like to ask the minister-designate is whether the securing of the clothing, supplies and other material which will be required in order that his department may function quickly and efficiently will be under his energetic review or under the review of the Minister of National Defence.


Charles Gavan Power: Everything required by the air force will be secured through requisitions made by the Minister of National Defence for Air, directed to the Minister of Supply. If he does not get what he wants quickly he will talk to the Minister of Supply.


Joseph Henry Harris: The other question is about the proclamation, as to how quickly it can be issued.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As my hon. friend is aware, the bill has to be passed by the other house and receive the royal assent before

National Defence-Air Ministry
an appointment can be made under its provisions. I have asked the leader of the government in the senate if he would make it a point of seeing that there is no adjournment of the senate until after the bill leaves this house so that, if the senate is agreeable, it might there pass through all its stages this afternoon. We would then endeavour to get immediate assent, and the minister would assume office at once thereafter. Once the bill becomes an. act of this parliament, an order in council will be passed at the earliest possible moment appointing the minister.


Joseph Henry Harris: And he will function in the meantime?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Quite so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Together with my associate, the hon. member for Yale, I have studied this bill and we are quite satisfied with it and with the object the government has in view. However, I think there should be an amendment in line 27, inserting 'the word "defence" after the word "other" and before the word "service." I think that is the intention. The section would then read: -and in respect of any matter affecting both the air service and any other defence service-


Charles Gavan Power: Otherwise it covers a little too much territory.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think so.


James Layton Ralston: I move, seconded by the Minister of Public Works, that the bill be amended in line 27 by inserting after the word "other" the word "defence."


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 3-Appointment of additional deputy ministers.
Richard Burpee Hanson: I am not criticizing the appointment of the deputy ministers, but I should like the Prime Minister or the minister for air defence, as I prefer to call him, to tell the committee what is the status of General LaFleche.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: At the present time General LaFleche is acting as military attache at the Canadian legation at Paris. As my hon. friend is no doubt aware, General LaFleche was granted leave of absence for some time on account of illness. It was realized that his ill health was due in no small measure to 'the great burden that had been placed on him as the one deputy head of the department. Provision was accordingly made by order in council on September 9, 1939, for the appointment of two acting associate deputy ministers. More recently a [Mr. Mackenzie King.l
third acting associate deputy minister has been appointed. General LaFleche remains deputy minister of the department, but at the present time is absent on leave, and his place is being filled by three acting associate deputies.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it intended to perpetuate that situation? Is it intended that General LaFleche shall return to the department and that this shall be a temporary measure?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot tell
my hon. friend what may take place in the future. That will depend on the state of health of General LaFleche and the situation as it may develop meanwhile.


Mr. BROOKS:: This bill provides for the
length of time the minister shall hold office. Will the deputy minister cease to hold office after the minister has completed his work? There is no provision for that in the bill.


Charles Gavan Power: Frankly the question does
rather puzzle me, though I do not think there would be very much difficulty in connection with the air service. This bill provides that "when a Minister of National Defence for Air has been appointed, the duties of the deputy minister for the air service shall be such as are specified by such minister, and the powers of such deputy shall be such as might have been exercisable by him if there were a separate department for the air service." I take that to mean that when the minister disappears the powers which he has specified as those allotted to the deputy minister would disappear also. However, that question should be looked into. My hon. friend the leader of the opposition shakes his head, and he may be right; frankly I cannot answer the question offhand.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I appreciate the point raised by the hon. member for Royal; it is certainly well taken. You create an air ministry and provide for the demise of the minister-of course I do not mean that literally-but you make no provision for getting rid of these associate deputy ministers. You may find that you have them on your hands. I would suggest to my hon. friend that he immediately draft something to meet that situation.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think the
point could be pretty well covered by the order in council appointing the deputy.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But you
are going to operate under a statute, and it will supersede the order in council.

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Charles Gavan Power: As my hon. friend the Minister of Finance points out, with the organization once completed-and after all, we will always have an air force-in all probability it will call for a civilian head such as a deputy minister, just as not so very long ago there was a deputy minister for naval affairs and a deputy minister of militia, and just as in the Department of National Revenue there are three men of equal rank. There will be no difficulty about the man who is to act as deputy minister for air at the present time. Our problem will be to keep Mr. Duncan for a greater length of time than that for which he has contracted. I know he has no idea of remaining permanently in the civil service. His services are extremely valuable, and we hope to be able to retain them for a longer period than was originally anticipated.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That does not settle the question. The office is still there and, if I have any knowledge of human nature, if it is vacant there will be someone who will want a job and my hon. friend will find great difficulty in withstanding the pressure. As a matter of fact at this moment I see a number of hon. members looking very much interested.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported.
Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, there are some points which possibly I should have mentioned on the debate on second reading because they relate to the principle of the bill. However I shall not speak at any length on the third reading, because I believe there is another bill in reference to the air force which deals more specifically with the details of the division of the work between the Department of National Defence and the new air ministry.
What do the people of Canada think of the public men in all parties who during the past twenty years have been more or less responsible, in one degree or another, for the absolutely defenceless position in which the people of Canada find themselves? On this occasion I do not rise to criticize Bill No. 15. Criticism is a tonic which stimulates governments to action. In the past month Britain and France have learned this to their sorrow from bitter experience and learned that constructive criticism prevents governments from relaxing into blunders which are nothing but suicide. So long as criticism is honest and founded on facts and not inspired by any ulterior political motive, it is more helpful and urgent and necessary in war time than in peace.
This is the darkest hour of the war and we do not yet know to whom this country will belong at the end of this year. Those two
glorious countries, Britain and France, have to go it alone for freedom. Germany has nearly 200 divisions of nearly six million men, and if they break the Maginot and other lines on the western front-as no fortifications can hold out forever when the Germans are on the march-if they break the line they will arrive at the channel ports and use pom-pom guns and huge bombing planes and awful tanks of a mechanized age, with the union of barbarism and mechanization, and the British empire may have seen its day. It is Hitler's dream; he will trample down Britain the way he did Belgium in the last war, and Finland, Poland, Holland, Belgium and Czechoslovakia in this, by the most cruel brutalities of all time.
Now in connection with our Canadian air programme: if hon. members would take the trouble to read the debates of 1937, 1938 and 1939 as reported in Hansard they would find that I brought this empire air scheme before the house. I pointed out at that time the danger to the civilian population of Canada. Those were the days when the Germans were trying to establish a base on Anticosti island and Hudson bay. If the Germans can cross the channel Hitler will be in a position to treat Britain the way he treated Belgium, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Holland and Finland. It is too bad the people of Canada have not been more alert in the matter of its air force. Had we been more active we could have 6aved civilization.
The unfortunate truth is that in the past year and a half nine times out of ten we have been too late.
Too late, too late, will be the cry;
Hitler and Germany passeth by.
Those are the words which might be substituted for the old evangelists' song. I repeat that nine times out of ten Canada has been too late. She was too late in her recruiting; too late in her operations respecting the Bren gun; too late in the commonwealth air training scheme; too late in respect of clothing and boots and equipment; too late in furnishing money for dependents; too late in supplying big guns and Bren guns and modern rifles and munitions; too late in dealing with the fifth column; too late in making a national register; too late getting a survey of industrial and economic power; too late in organizing large and small plants for the manufacture of munitions and aircraft; too late in preventing the menace which arises from magazines printed in the United States and from United States radio programmes which are sent into Canada every day to destroy the morale of the Canadian people.
I have in my hand a pictorial United States publication, the Daily News of May 22, which

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can be bought in the Chateau Laurier and at any newsstand in Ottawa, with big headings, " Nazis drive to channel-Trap Million Allies 

Threaten Britain." It operates against the morale of our people, and particularly the women in Canada. In the present and other issues of the paper I have before me they criticize the British government, the empire training plan, and many other matters. Nine or ten times last year I asked ministers of the government to stop these United States propagandist alien and anti-ally papers. It is most dangerous to permit them to enter the country.
While in connection with our air scheme it is of tremendous importance that we have the splendid support of our friends across the border, still we must face the fact that so far as our air force is concerned they are not willing to help us or help the allies. Their policy to-day is that which follows the Johnson act, the Ludlow resolution and the neutrality legislation and the resolution in the senate of the United States, which I read some time ago. They are back to the days of the policy of their first presidents, George Washington and Andrew Jackson, and take the stand that they will go to war only if they are attacked or invaded.
We realize that there are a great many splendid people living in the United States, and my only reason for mentioning the point at this time is that the subject has been discussed in the United States house of representatives and senate. Not long ago the German ambassador addressed a meeting of citizens in the city of Cleveland, and during the course of his observation, pointing towards lake Erie and lake Ontario, he said, " Those people in Britain ought to surrender parts of their country; they ought to give up Gibraltar, the Cape and Hong Kong; they ought to give up the West Indies, and should not be interested in the great Singapore base "-in which unfortunately Canada is not represented.
We realize that the United States is a neutral country. It is to be hoped that in connection with the present aid to the Allies they will no longer act the part of the Levite and pass by on the other side, only to come back later and say, "We are willing to pull the smaller nations out of the pit, but only on a cash-and-carry plan." It has also been indicated by some of the members of the senate and house of representatives that Britain should give up Bermuda, the West Indies, and, one says Canada, for the war debt and munitions. Aid from America to crush the dictators may come too late for civilization.
The minister (Mr. Power) has been very active. We know that he served during the

first great war with a Toronto unit, and I know that the people up there have a great deal of regard for him in military matters. I hope his record as minister of the new department will be as good as it was as a soldier in the last war.
While head of the city of Toronto in the last war I helped secure the Royal Air Force headquarters for Toronto. During the last war 18,000 pilots and mechanics were trained m Toronto. At that time different action was taken. Those in authority took over the best buildings connected with the university of Toronto and public schools, and established camps at Armour heights and four or five other places. The work done in Canada at that time was of tremendous advantage to the mother country. It is my hope that the minister's record will be as good as that of the Royal Air Force in the last war, as set out in Mr. Carnegie's book dealing with the Royal Air Force. It was a wonderful achievement from 1915 to 1918.
Canada has been fortunate in getting a magnificent type of recruit, in this war, and I am certain that had the suggestions for an air scheme for Canadian youth made in 1937, 1938 and 1939 been adopted, we would have at least 5,000 trained pilots here to-day. In those years many high school boys were riding the rods and looking for employment. If they had been signed up in the national service and air plan they could have been given clothing and lodging, pocket money and deferred pay, and at the end of a three-year period, which would have ended in May of this year, we would have had at least five thousand pilots. We would have had at our disposal men with air training, and in the meantime they would have had proper care.
It is not yet too late to take this matter of national service for the air force into consideration, and I hope the minister will discuss it with boards of education throughout the country. Three years ago a boy in Belleville found himself in trouble because he gave the wrong age when he enlisted in the air force, and I brought the matter to the attention of the house and got him out. I could say that there were two or three hundred Canadians who had to go to England in cattle boats at their own expense. There are five or six of these whom I know who have received decorations over there. These Canadians are well trained and make the best pilots, as was demonstrated by the exploits of Barker, Bishop and Ray Collishaw during the great war. I hope the minister will endeavour to get Vice Air Marshal Collishaw back to help in this great air scheme and work along with Air Marshal Bishop.

War Appropriation-Mr. Nicholson
The recent accidents at Trenton have done considerable harm to recruiting, and some official inquiry should be made immediately. Four boys were killed only the other day, and four others were killed last January and civilian inquests should also be held as in 1917 as well as military ones. When Trenton was chosen and Camp Borden closed up it was stated that Trenton was not at all suitable because of wind conditions and other things. There should be a civil inquiry into these deaths because they have hurt recruiting. Some improvement should be made in the hospital accommodation and all that sort of thing, also for the Royal Canadian Air Force and better buildings. Why not take them under the War Measures Act.
We should have a compulsory national registry in order that we might have better success than we have been having with voluntary recruiting. Many men have been exempted and many orders have been issued exempting other groups. I believe conscription is going to become a live issue whether we like it or not unless we prosecute voluntary recruiting more diligently. We must remember there is conscription in all laws; in the Militia Act; there is conscription in education, in our economic and health laws and so on. This country should have a stock-taking of resources. We should have a complete record, a domesday book of all Canada so that each may do his part, which would provide a survey of the country and be of the greatest benefit in the defence of Canada and the empire. Conscription was not an issue in the last election because its enforcement had not been a success in the last war and more men would have been got voluntarily in 1917, but I believe we will have to go into that matter again very shortly and have a proper survey made.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and bill read the third time and passed.

Georges Parent: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, May 22, 1940.
Sir: -
I have the honour to inform you that the Hon. Mr. Justice O. S. Crocket, acting as deputy of His Excellency the Administrator, will proceed to the Senate chamber to-day at 5.45 p.m. for the purpose of giving the royal assent to a certain bill.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. L. C. Pereira, Acting Secretary for the Administrator.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, May 21, consideration of the motion of Mr. Ralston that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That sums not exceeding $700,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses that may be incurred by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for-
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada:
(c)	promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever; and
(d)	the carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or advisable by the governor in council in consequence of the existence of a state of war.
With provision also empowering the governor in council to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, such sum or sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of $700,000,000 as may be required for the purpose of defraying the aforesaid expenses, the principal and interest of any such loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, at eleven o'clock last night I was urging that a portion of this proposed appropriation of $700,000,000 be made available to provide for additional payments on the 1939 wheat crop at the earliest possible moment. In conclusion I wish to say that my constituents are fully aware of the gravity of the present situation. I feel sure that my people are anxious to do their utmost to carry out the provisions of paragraph (a), which provides for the security, defence, peace, order and welfare of Canada. A great many of the boys from Mackenzie are now in uniform in the various military services. At least three have served with distinction in the air force and have made the supreme sacrifice. A large group of men who served with distinction in the last great war have voluntereed their services in any capacity.
We cannot offer large industrial plants; we cannot subscribe large amounts of money for attractive government loans, but we have extensive tracts of fertile land, and there are on our Saskatchewan farms men, yes, and women and children too, who have worked and who are willing to continue to work from early morning until late at night in order to produce the foodstuffs so essential to victory. Our Canadian farmers have no intention of

War Appropriation-Mr. Howe
holding a gun at the head of the government, as it were, and demanding unlimited profits in return for the production of foodstuffs, but I do urge that out of this $700,000,000 we spend sufficient to give the farmer an adequate return with which to pay operating expenses and provide a decent living for those engaged in agriculture.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport):: Mr. Speaker, the discussion of the resolution appropriating $700,000,000 for Canada's war programme would hardly be complete without a report on the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply, which will have the spending of a large part of this money. As the statement I desire to make will improve with accuracy, I trust the house will pardon me if I keep rather closely to my notes.
It seems to me that the duties and limitations of the work of the department are not generally understood. I am often asked why we have not filled every factory in Canada with orders for war equipment regardless of the cost. The complete answer to that is that before we can purchase any finished article, we must know that it is required, either by our own armed forces or by those of Great Britain and France.
Except for the purpose of carrying out its responsibility to see that Canada has on hand a supply of raw materials sufficient to meet the needs of warfare, the department does not purchase munitions of war on its own initiative. The requirements of Canada's armed forces are passed on to the board in the form of requisitions from the Department of National Defence. The governments of Great Britain and France are represented in Canada by purchasing boards, each of which passes on to the Department of Munitions and Supply the needs of their respective governments for purchases abroad. These usually take the form of general inquiries, to which the department responds with statements of the available supply in Canada, the sources of supply and the probable cost. The department is, in fact, the salesman for Canadian war materials to the governments of our allies, and is and has been doing its best to put forward Canada's potential productive capacity in a form that will attract orders.
It must be remembered that Canada's army in Britain and France, although commanded by Canadians, forms part of the British army, and has no separate lines of communication. Therefore, it is practically a necessity that our equipment be interchangeable with British equipment. This means that the armament of our troops must largely be built to British standards, and that British designs must be followed. One of our chief difficulties has

been to obtain the latest British designs for mechanical equipment used by our troops in common operations. British industry has not been too willing to part with these designs, many of which represent years of study and development by private manufacturing firms.
In the last war, Canada's chief production was shell cases. We are now tooled up to produce this type of equipment far in excess of our own needs, but to date British orders have not been forthcoming in a quantity proportional to our industrial capacity.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Would the minister be good enough to tell us exactly where those plants are, and whether they are government plants?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Plants that are tooled up?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Production is going on at the government arsenal at Quebec, at Lindsay and at other points such as the National Steel Car and Massey-Harris. I will give the information later.
This has been disappointing to our manufacturers, who have been building on the precedent of the last war. I can only say that this war bears little resemblance to the last one in the nature of the requirements from Canada. The fact that to date Britain and France have been satisfied to rely largely on their own production and mechanical equipment and have not been disposed to encourage Canadian production of heavy equipment to the extent of furnishing up to date plans and specifications, has undoubtedly prevented Canadian industry from playing its full part in mechanical warfare. I am happy to say that there are now indications that this will not continue.
In the matter of supplies for Canada's armed forces the department must decide whether it is desirable to initiate Canadian production or to buy abroad. This depends largely on the quantity required and whether the source of supply in Canada for a particular article is justified as a defence measure, even though production in Canada means greatly increased costs for the quantities required. Canada does not attempt to manufacture every item of equipment required by its troops overseas. By arrangement, certain items have been and will be furnished by Britain, and are being paid for in kind by shipments of other equipment more suited to our productive capacity.
Broadly speaking, there are three essentials in our war needs. Our people must obtain an adequate supply of the necessities of life; industrial output must be increased to meet

military needs; and we must have sufficient supplies of foreign exchange to buy the necessary imports of raw materials. Prior to the outbreak of the war the government had planned to meet these needs. The defence purchasing board had been established and was in operation, developing sources of supply for war materials. On the day war was declared the war-time prices and trade board was created to maintain the flow of the necessities of life. On September 15, following a plan laid down before, the outbreak of war, the foreign exchange control board was in operation and has since made exchange available for materials not procurable in Canada. The work of the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor boards has been and will be closely allied with the work of the war-time prices and trade board and with the foreign exchange control board, and the closest association and cooperation is being maintained.
The policy established at the inception of the defence purchasing board, of drawing on industry for its ablest personnel, has been maintained in the ministry of munitions and supply. Appointments to the latter have been entirely non-partisan and all key positions have been filled by experienced business executives. The direction of the department is assisted by the executive committee, the members of which direct policy and give their personal attention to the larger and more difficult purchasing problems. It is worthy of special mention that the members of the defence purchasing board and the war supply board have all served, and the executive committee of the Department of Munitions and Supply now serve, without salary, and a number of the department's leading executives also serve without salary.
We have called on the services of those business men who have seemed best able to perform the tasks in hand and very few who have been invited to serve have declined to do so. The Department of Munitions and Supply purchases on requisition from the Department of National Defence all such materials as that department requires. It also acts as purchasing agent in Canada for the government of Great Britain, represented here by the British purchasing board, and also for the government of France, represented here by the French purchasing board.
The department attempts to anticipate the needs of all three as far in advance as possible to the extent of having factory space available and tools and raw materials in hand. It is the duty of the Department of Munitions and Supply to see that an adequate supply of materials for war purposes is conli ar Appropriation-Mr. Howe
stantly available, and its economic branch carries on studies of the raw material situation constantly.
The department takes responsibility for the purchasing of such materials as cloth for uniforms, chemicals for explosives, silk for parachutes and any raw material that may be difficult to obtain when requisitioned. Its economic branch studies exchange problems with a view to conserving foreign exchange wherever possible, and problems of production in an effort to obtain maximum results in Canadian industry.
Since the defence purchasing board was established in July, 1939, the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor boards have purchased $225,000,000 worth of equipment, material and munitions for the Canadian army, navy and air force. In addition to this the department has placed $75,000,000 worth of equipment, material and munitions orders for Great Britain and France, making a total in orders placed of about $300,000,000. In doing so they have placed some 17,000 separate contracts. Throughout April contracts were being awarded at an average rate of 135 daily. Each of these contracts has been awarded by tender except those, relatively few in number, where it was impossible to obtain competitive bidding or in cases where the full output of an industry is required.
If the full output of an industry is required, the custom is to call in the association of the industry, if there is an association, or to call in the separate firms to determine their output in order to start the industry working at full speed. An audit of the books of each firm is made before the work is undertaken and another audit of the books is made when the contract is completed, and the price paid is the actual cost as determined by these audits, with a margin of profit which is kept to an amount consistent with that usual in the trade in ordinary competitive conditions.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Do I understand that
where a certain line has been purchased the department divides the whole order among all the manufacturers of that line capable of producing the article?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is done only where the entire output of the industry is needed. For example, in cloth we have been keeping the entire production of our textile mills running at full capacity, at least those suited to the classification. In that case we ask the industry to divide the orders among its members and depend upon the reports of the government auditors to fix the price when the order is completed. Those that have not been awarded by tender have all received the severe scrutiny


War Appropriation-Mr. Howe
of men who are not in the strict sense of the word government employees but are serving on the executive committee of the department without salary. In other words, one or more members of the executive committee of the department are required to initial any order placed except as a result of competitive tender where the low tender has been accepted.
The cost plus form of contract has been eliminated and where competitive prices cannot be established auditing firms are retained to examine manufacturers' costs to determine a fair price for the product. At times the suppliers' books are audited by chartered accountants both before the contract is completed and afterwards. All profits are kept to a level consistent with the competitive situation.
It is possible that there are better ways of allotting government contracts than by awarding the work to the lowest tenderer, but nc one knows a better means of safeguarding the public interest. Business is placed without competitive tender only when a situation is found that will not permit of competitive tenders being obtained, or when fair prices have been established in the locality by recent competitive tender. Where we have a recent tender for a certain amount of goods, and further goods of the same kind are required, the practice is sometimes followed of extending an order at the previous competitive price.
Our purchasing organization is required to buy a great variety of products. A continuing problem is to keep up with demands for clothing.
To give you a few figures: Our factories have delivered up to a few days ago over
400,000	blankets, 125,000 pairs of boots, 270,000 shirts, 775,000 pairs of socks, 155,000 uniform blouses and jackets, and 190,000 uniform trousers.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Did all these goods pass inspection?


Clarence Decatur Howe: They have all been inspected by the inspection branch of the Department of National Defence. I am giving the figures of accepted goods.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: All the shoes have been inspected and passed by the inspectors?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite. They all go through the inspection rooms of the Department of National Defence.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, they have the inspectors in the factory.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Other clothing orders are current which will keep our textile and finishing industries busy to capacity for months to come. So far as needs will permit, clothing

orders have been placed on the basis of continuous production for the duration of the war. That is particularly so as regards the air training scheme. Our weekly rate of production of these articles is about as follows:
Blankets	 20,000
Boots	
20,000	pairsBattle dress uniforms	
5,000	suitsSocks	
40,000	pairsUnderwear	
30,000	suits
Production is now under way of shells and their components ranging. from small arms and ammunition, anti-aircraft shells and field gun ammunition to heavy artillery shells. Machine guns are being made in Canada, and the expansion of facilities for the production of anti-aircraft guns and field artillery is proceeding. Some half dozen firms are now directly interested in different phases of gun production, in which activity prior to the war had been confined to the limited field of small arms manufacture in a government arsenal.
Behind this activity stand the heavy metal industry and the machine tool manufacturers of Canada. Our plants have largely been equipped by the domestic tool manufacturers. In addition the vast quantity of inspection gauges necessary to the certification and acceptance of munitions of all kinds is being supplied through Canadian sources. Many thousands of gauges of infinite precision have already been delivered.
All these activities are based in the ultimate analysis on the primary steel and non-ferrous metal industries. Steel furnace capacity has been increased by some hundreds of thousands of tons since the outbreak of war.
Canada's favourable position in the nonferrous metals as compared with 1918 is well recognized. New facilities are being creiated for the extensive supply of these and other raw materials which go to the manufacture of munitions.
Eight Canadian plants are at present engaged in the manufacture of 2,250,000 shells. These plants have been equipped with modern shell-making equipment. Within a few days an additional 2,250,000 shell order will be placed. Thus within a few days twelve or more Canadian firms will be engaged in the manufacture of 4,500,000 shells. I might say by way of comparison that in the seventeenth month of the great war Canada shipped 5,-
380,000	shells to England-which was a very excellent record at that time. We have placed orders up to the present time for only about the same quantity, which will mean that when that time is reached, based on present orders we shall have delivered about the same amount as had been delivered in the last war. The difference is, of course, that we have installed much more modern

machinery, we have larger plants engaged in the business, and the business is not distributed to anything like the extent that it was in the last war. If we had the business to place, relative to our productive capacity, that we had in the last war, we could, of course, supply Britain with many times the quantities of shells that we supplied in the last war.
The shells which Canada now makes or will make in the immediate future include 40 millimetre, 18-pounder, 25-pounder, 3-7 inch, 4-5 inch, 6 inch, and 9'2 inch shells. In order to make the shells complete. Canadian plants are at present engaged in the manufacture of corresponding quantities of cartridge cases, fuses, primers and other requisites. Some sixty different Canadian companies are engaged in this work. The dominion arsenals are also engaged in certain special munition work for the United Kingdom.
Excluding certain explosives orders, for which the capacity of the dominion is being rapidly increased, contracts totalling more than $40,000,000 have been placed for these munitions, including 100,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition, individual gun barrels, anti-tank carriages, and other items. I might say that that item of 100,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition has been very greatly increased since these notes were prepared.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How many of these plants for the -manufacture of -munitions, shells, cases, and boxes are located in the maritime' provinces?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I cannot say, I am sure. I cannot remember offhand the number. A great many people say that they cannot come to me and get orders for munitions. My reply is this; I am greatly interested in just one thing, and that is getting the best material available in the shortest time and at the lowest price. I am prepared to open the doors of any department of munitions supply. You can discuss your problem with the chief, you can tell him what your plant is, you can tell him where your difficulty is. He can, perhaps, help you to remove it. If he can, and if you can get your price down so as to produce competitively with other plants, you will get shell orders; if you cannot, you will not.
My hon. friend the leader of the opposition, speaking in the debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne, said that he knew of a prominent Canadian manufacturer who was seeking aeroplane orders and could not get them. He did not disclose
95826-9J
War Appropriation-Mr. Howe
why he could not get them, but the implication was, either that we did not like the person applying, or that there was something wrong with his political stripe.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is your own implication, not mine.


Mr. HOY  E@: If my hon. friend will examine the book I laid on the table to-day, he will find that, in the first place, the firm to which he referred have had a good many million dollars' worth of orders from the war supply board, and in the second place, their difficulty is very much the same as that of a great many other manufacturers applying for orders: they have not put themselves in a position to supply goods of the quality desired in the time required and at a price consistent with the level of production that we are able to obtain in this country.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I do not want to interrupt too much^ but we have had very few orders in the maritimes. I am sure the minister does not wish to intimate that we cannot manufacture as quickly or as cheaply or as well in the maritime provinces as in other parts of Canada.


Clarence Decatur Howe: What I say applies to every part of Canada; these orders go out so widely. They are placed by competitive tender; or, if they are not placed by competitive tender, the entire industry in Canada is canvassed to see who is available to handle the business. Possibly one reason why not so many orders have gone to the maritime provinces is that the principal steel industry there is shipping direct to Great Britain on orders secured well before the war. I think some seventy-five to eighty per cent of the output of the Dominion Iron and Steel Company is being shipped direct from Sydney to Great Britain without passing through the war supply board. If there are other factories in the maritimes capable of doing this work, the doors of the Department of Munitions and Supply are wide open to them and we shall be very glad to help them place themselves in a position to manufacture the type of equipment that is going. I may say that the textile mills in the maritimes are, to my knowledge, operating at full blast; I have yet to recall any manufacturer in the maritimes who has called on me for assistance since I have been associated with this board in the last several months.
We now have some 250 separate construction projects under way, including coastal defences, fortifications, hangars and submarine defences for our harbours and waterways. Outside of the work of the Department of Munitions and Supply, the Departments of
War Appropriation-Mr. Howe

Transport and Public Works are assisting by taking over the direction of certain other construction projects. The Department of Public Works is building naval and military structures of the type usually built by them for these service departments. The Department of Transport, owing to the fact that it has trained personnel and experience in building airports, has become responsible for preliminary surveys, land purchases and construction of airports required for the British empire air training programme. Under this plan the Department of Transport is charged with the provision of the necessary airports for training purposes. Of the fifty-one terminal and intermediate aerodromes on the Trans-Canada airway and its feeder lines, thirty-four are being utilized in this programme. These airports were designed for commercial transport flying, with landing strips or runways. For training purposes a larger usable area is desirable; on all of these thirty-four fields a considerable amount of grading will be necessary, and on most of them additional hardsurfaced runways will also be provided. It will be necessary to establish fifty-four completely new aerodromes, more particularly for the advanced flying training, bombing, gunnery and navigation schools. In all there are eighty-eight projects, involving an expenditure of approximately $19,000,000 for development.
The selection of suitable sites for the new fields was put in hand immediately the new training scheme was approved. In all some seventeen hundred sites were examined. A preliminary survey was made of 195, and out of these 102 were selected for more detailed survey. Complete topographical and development plans have been completed on fifty-three new fields, and tenders have been called for twenty-nine of these. Seventeen jobs were already under way, and it is expected that development work on practically all the projects will be completed during 1940. In the meantime the existing fields are available and many are being used for training purposes.
We are spending some $14,000,000 on the purchase of some nine thousand motor vehicles. Some three thousand of these vehicles have now been delivered overseas, and the seven [DOT]thousand vehicles required by the first and second divisions will all be delivered overseas *by July.
The orders placed for ships in Canadian shipyards aggregated on April 30 approximately $47,000,000, involving a programme extending into 1941. Of this amount, approximately $43,000,000 will be expended in Canada for Canadian labour and material, and the balance either in Great Britain or the United

States. It is rather remarkable that on an order for -warships only $4,000,000 out of $47,000,000 is required to be expended outside the borders of Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I assume a large number of the ships to which the minister now refers are either trawlers or mine-layers or minesweepers?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In general the bulk of the order is in two classes: one, the mine-sweeper type costing about $550,000; and the other, what is known as the anti-submarine, whale-catcher type, costing something over $500,000. In addition we have a variety of smaller service boats, but I think there are ninety-four in all of the two types I have mentioned.


James Layton Ralston: Costing about S500,000 apiece.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, $500,000 apiece. This programme directly and indirectly involves a personnel, exclusive of supervisory and office forces which will vary during the programme, of from 10,000 to 17,000 persons. Every shipyard in Canada has orders for warships that will use the full capacity of the yard until midsummer of next year. A number of ships have been requisitioned from our merchant marine and other services and have been armed and converted to war use.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that convoy purposes?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Well, a variety of purposes; certain ships for convoy purposes, and others for mine-sweeping and certain other service vessels.
Our navy now consists of some ninety-four ships, ranging from destroyers to patrol boats and service vessels. At the end of the present fiscal year it will have been increased to some 242 ships. Except for destroyers, these added ships will have been built by Canadian shipyards, or requisitioned, and converted in Canadian shipyards.
Our aeroplane division has been exceedingly busy in arranging for the purchase of fighting and bombing planes for the Royal Canadian Air Force, for some five thousand aeroplanes required for the British commonwealth air training plan, and for the plant necessary for the overhaul of planes and engines during the training period. The production of aeroplanes in Canada has been expanded to a point where 1,028 planes will be built in Canada during the current year and 1,583 in 1941.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will the planes be built completely in Canada, including the manufacture of engines?

War Appropriation-Mr. Howe


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am coming to that a little later, if my friend will bear with me.
The progress of the industry can be judged by noting that in 1934 Canadian production was eighteen aircraft; in 1935, 58; in 1936, 109; in 1937, 110, and in 1938, 282.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Pretty
small.


Clarence Decatur Howe: An industry is in operation for the manufacture of aeroplane instruments in Canada, and is being rapidly expanded.
In May, 1940, there were 5,711 employees in aircraft plants in Canada, and it is anticipated that this number will be increased to 20,000, based on orders now in hand in the industry.
Aeroplane engines are not manufactured in Canada, and are at present the limiting factor in the further development of our aircraft industry. Extensive study has been given to obtaining a source of aeroplane engines within Canada, and negotiations are proceeding for the establishment in Canada of a large plant for the manufacture of aeroplane engines. This problem presents great difficulties, as is evidenced by the fact that practically all aeroplane engines used on this continent come from three or four sources of supply in the United States and two or three in Great Britain. The production of aeroplane engines involves enormous capital investment, extensive patent rights and a degree of engineering skill not readily obtained. In addition to the Canadian production, arrangements have been made to obtain aeroplanes in the United States and Great Britain, and deliveries are now being made according to schedule. Aeroplane engines for our own production are being obtained from the same sources.
I may say that from time to time we have bought in advance the engines which might be reasonably required under the plans we could see in hand. We contracted in good time for all the aeroplanes required for the air training plan according to the early schedule, both for installation in the machines that we were building or ordering from abroad and for spares during the training period. Since then, of course, the British government has moved into the United States market and contracted for the entire production of aeroplane engines for some time to come, and has arranged also to expand aeroplane factories there. The stepping up of our industry on short notice is, of course, made very difficult by that situation. In the last few days I have been able to discuss the situation with one British and two United States manufacturers of aeroplane engines. They tell me that the engine production in the United States is expanding very rapidly
and that it will be only for a matter of months that the production of aeroplane engines will continue to be the bottle-neck of the industry.
Of course the question that we have been asking all manufacturers of aeroplane engines for some months lias been, "Why can you not move part of your plant to Canada?" It has been explained to us that the difficulty is in training the technical staff. Apparently the building of aeroplane engines is a highly specialized industry. I was told by a manufacturer only yesterday that he could double his plant in the United States and get production in four or five months, whereas to build a plant in Canada production would take at least from eighteen months to two years. That, I think, explains the difficulty we have met in trying to work out any practical arrangement for the manufacture of aeroplane engines in Canada.
Another difficulty, of course, is the wide variety of sizes of engines we use in this country. One might say, "Well, why not turn out one size of engine and try to standardize your aircraft to the use of that size?" To do so, would very seriously hold back the development of the production of aeroplane engines in this country. Large plants that are in production are able to work up from one size of production to the next size and keep up with the development of the science of flying. Therefore, even if we spent two years in tooling up for one particular size of engine, we might find when we came into production that this type had ceased to be useful in fighting aircraft. I am simply pointing out the tremendous advantage that lies with a plant in continuous production in keeping up with the present situation, as compared with building a plant from the ground up.
To overhaul planes and engines, which is being made a civil occupation under the air training scheme, will involve about 5,600 craftsmen in addition to the 40,000 personnel mentioned for the air training scheme itself. Buildings for overhaul work are being constructed or reconditioned and equipped by the department at an estimated cost of about $4,500,000. These plants are located in various centres from coast to coast, convenient to air force operations.
Our explosives and chemical division has had under study the problem of supplying basic and important raw materials. In some instances we have had to purchase raw materials ; in others we have taken steps to augment the supply from Canadian industry and from abroad. Our explosives programme is being rapidly developed. The first unit, involving, a capital expenditure of $10,000,000 in plant,

War Appropriation-Mr. Howe
is well under way, and an annual production valued at $17,000,000 is expected to commence in the early autumn. Some 1,200 to 1,400 men will be employed in this project when operations commence. This plant will produce
12,000	tons of cordite and 15,000 tons of TNT as its capacity. Arrangements have been practically consummated for another large plant of approximately the same size, and it is expected that construction will start immediately. The capital expenditure on the latter plant will be approximately $10,000,000.
In addition to these new plants, the existing plants of Canadian Industries Limited at Beloeil are running to full capacity on TNT and cordite. At the present time negotiations .are being carried on for an extension of the .Beloeil plant, to increase the manufacture of propellants required in small arms ammunition, which will be utilized by the Quebec arsenal and the small arms ammunition plant of Dominion Industries Limited at Brownsburg. Toluol is being obtained from all immediately available sources in Canada, and new sources are being developed. This toluol, with the exception of what is required in Canada for the manufacture of TNT, is being exported to Great Britain. After September, all the toluol produced in Canada will be required for the manufacture of TNT in Canada.
Arrangements have been completed for the construction of a plant to produce hexaehlore-thane, which is a component of smoke-producing mixtures. We are also dealing with inquiries for very large quantities of ammonium nitrate and certain other chemicals which will be used in the explosives programme and for export to Great Britain. Arrangements have been practically concluded for the establishment of a plant to manufacture activated carbon for gas masks to meet Canadian requirements and for export to Great Britain. I might add that we have been manufacturing the gas masks for some time but have had to obtain our activated carbon partly from Great Britain and partly from the United States.
In order to purchase quickly and efficiently, we have to know' exactly what Canadian plants can produce and exactly the type of production to which their equipment might be diverted. By (he end of last March the plant survey division had completed 2,200 plant inspections. We have on file a fair estimate of the present and potential capacity of Canada to produce any given war material. The immediate availability of this information has resulted in substantial savings to the country on many contracts.
{Mr. Howe.3
The work of the Department of Munitions and Supply is expanding and will continue to expand as our industrial capacity continues to be absorbed in supplying war needs. It is inevitable that our production can be stepped up only gradually. It takes time to provide machines and to tool up for a new type of production; it takes time to prepare plans and specifications for ships and for coast defence projects; it takes time to organize sources of supply for our new aviation industry; it takes a longer time to build new factories for the production of machine guns, heavy artillery and explosives. The fact that we have been able to place orders for some $300,000,000 worth of war supplies within nine months is an indication that Canada has an enormous industrial capacity and a wide range of production.
I should point out that purchases by the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor boards do not include the purchase of such products as wheat, bacon, cheese, lumber, copper, zinc, nickel and aluminum, which are purchased for direct import by Great Britain. These are handled by other agencies of government, and are in addition to purchases made by the Department of Munitions and Supply.
The Department of Munitions and Supply follows the pattern of its predecessor boards in being entirely non-partisan. Its directing heads and employees have been appointed entirely without political consideration. Its purchases have been awarded to the low tenderer or, where tenders are impossible, to those best able to supply the material at lowest cost. Its transactions are open to the fullest possible scrutiny of parliament subject to limitations that the public interest must not be jeopardized. I am satisfied that all its transactions have been conducted honestly and I take full responsibility for them all. If mistakes have been made, they have been errors of judgment on the part of men qualified by training and experience to exercise sound judgment on the problems before them.
Canadian industry has shown every disposition to cooperate with the department. The department is clothed with extraordinary powers to deal with industry reluctant to fulfil its requirements and with industry not willing to produce at reasonable prices, but these powers have not as yet been exercised in a drastic way, as the need for such action has not arisen. The industrial tempo is rising rapidly, involving increasing difficulties to the department. It is inevitable that the personnel of the department will be expanding for some time to come and that supply

War Appropriation-Mr. Church
and exchange problems will come increasingly to the fore. If we can continue to obtain the services of the type of men that are directing the work at present and have directed it in the past, we can feel confident of meeting these problems as they arise.
In closing, I wish to pay a tribute to the industrial leaders of Canada who have given and are giving their full time to the work of the department without salary, many of them paying their own living expenses. These men bring to the work of the department a wealth of experience that cannot be purchased and a devotion to duty that has been outstanding. I also wish to thank those industrial firms who have placed valued employees in the service of the department without expense to the department. Many of our key positions are filled by men of this type. I also wish to express my appreciation of the work of the rank and file of the department, who have been working long hours, without complaint, in order that there may be no undue delay in meeting our war requirements. Whether the Department of Munitions and Supply is doing all that it could do in the present crisis is for others to judge, but I can say this, that if it is not doing all that it could do, the reason is not lack of effort on the part of its personnel.
I wish to acknowledge the splendid cooperation of Canadian industry writh the Department of Munitions and Supply. Industrial management has placed itself at the disposal of the department in a way that has made for most harmonious relations and has tended to facilitate the work of the department to the fullest possible extent. Labour relations on the work of the department have been placed in the hands of an experienced labour leader, who is working in close association with the Minister of Labour, and his efforts have been most helpful.
I feel confident that all branches of industry-labour, management and capital-will continue to cooperate to the end that nothing will interfere with the successful prosecution of the war.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, on Monday evening at five minutes to eleven I was speaking, and consented to the adjournment on the understanding that at a later time I might have five or ten minutes more.
It is all very well for the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) to give the report he has given to-day. In my opinion he has done good work in connection with civil aviation in Canada. But the minister and the government say that for three years they have known that war was imminent. Last
spring I read to the house commitments made by Gi'eat Britain to many countries in Europe, and at that time it appeared certain that war would be upon us in six months, because when Britain was at war Canada was at war. Yet the government did nothing. I asked if a survey could be made of large and small industrial plants in Canada, and yet we know that minister after minister told us nothing had been done. A football was made of the question of a national register of man power, food, economic and industrial power.
The Minister of Transport must have known, as I then said, that Britain had two thousand less merchant ships to carry food and munitions than in 1914; and he knew, too, that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) had refused to create storage reservoirs in England, despite his knowledge of the effect of submarine warfare in the last war. What did the government do? Canadian National merchant ships which had cost one or two million dollars were sold for less than $50,000 and, in many cases, without tenders. That is the way Canada treated the imminence of war and the question of shipping, so vital to the empire.
The war supply board is all right, as far as it goes, but we know it is honeycombed with red tape, and the man with the small plant has not got much of the business. What has been the benefit received by the air force from the war supply board? How many of those factories are turning out aeroplanes? How many are turning out heavy tanks or bombing planes? The government has not yet received a Bren gun; in fact there are many things they have not received. I say the first order which should be given to-night is an order under the Militia Act to mobilize all the militia in Canada for all military districts from coast to coast for active service. Call out the militia at once for active service in- all Canada. Secondly, a home guard of returned men and others should be formed, because we know it is badly needed in every municipality. Australia has this system. True, home defence is not as important in Canada as it is in England where they are only about twenty-six miles away from the guns and are more liable to air attack; besides, there are 40,000,000 civilians to protect in England. It is all very well for people in Canada to depend upon the protection of the mother country on land, sea and in the air, but it is quite a different thing when you have not that protection.
In order to provide for a home guard three measures would have ito be amended, namely, the Militia Act, the War Measures

War Appropriation-Mr. Church
Act and the criminal code, and through those amendments we would empower the mayors of municipalities throughout Canada to form home guards for purposes of protection. The home guards should be backed by legislation and financial support, and rifles should be provided.
In recent years we have had cause to notice how some people from other countries have come to Canada. For instance, we know that von Ribbentrop lived in Ottawa for three years, where he was a social lion. I used to see him at the football and hockey games here and elsewhere.


An hon. MEMBER:: Why didn't you hit him on the head?


Thomas Langton Church: He was received in some of the big homes; for Ottawa never knows what the rest of the community is thinking; at times he was in fact a society favourite in Ottawa. He got all those nice ideas and, one fine day, departed for parts unknown. Another one of those famous German ministers used to work on public works. When he came to Canada first he worked for a short time in the sewers and on roadway work in Ontario and in the west. Spies have been all over Canada. I read of their work in Canada in some American and other papers. I say something should be done along the lines of setting up a home guard for the protection of our people and of our empire along these lines; then this kind of propaganda would be stopped.
It is all very well for some people to say that they want peace. Canada wants peace, too, but we realize that we can have peace only through a more vigorous prosecution of the war, and that prosecution must take place throughout all the provinces of Canada. Let us see to it that our effort is not hindered or hampered. Canada's war effort can be carried out properly only when we have courageous leadership. Canada is being asked to make sacrifices because of this situation. Hitler is not going to be beaten because lights are being kept burning in a number of Ottawa buildings, because orders in council are being passed or because blue books are being issued to show what a war board is doing. It will take more than that to beat Hitler. This government refused to have a proper survey made of the manpower, the economic power, the food power and the industrial power of this country. If that had been done two years ago when Great Britain started rearming, conditions to-day might be different. Hitler is not going to be beaten by majorities in parliament or by

parliamentary repartee. He can be beaten only by a great national service, by sacrifices on the part of every man, woman and child in Canada. That is the only way in which we can pull our full weight in the boat.
I do not know what will be the fate of this country and no one knows to whom this country will belong at the end of the year should Great Britain lose the war. Canada is the next objective in this fight to a finish. So long as this war is on, Canada must do something all along the line. The only issue in this resolution is how the government of the day has been discharging the public trust which the country put in their hands. In times like these, if the government rises to the situation, it will have the unanimous support of every individual in this house. Canada is willing to make any sacrifice provided she is told that it is necessary. During the course of a war which may engulf all countries, the people are ready to give the government maximum support with minimum criticism.
The main question being asked by the man in the street is: How goes the war? This house should make its only business the prosecution of this war. A number of boards and commissions have been set up, but the government have failed all along the line. They seem to have underestimated the patriotism of the Canadian people. The government have left undone many of the things they should have done, and have done many things they should not have done. For three years the government saw that war was imminent, but they did nothing but talk and pursue a policy of neutrality and isolation. The two cardinal principles of our belated efforts on defence were:
(a)	A skeleton of a defence force for home defence.
(b)	To protect our neutrality, depending on the United States for maritime freedom.
Here are the Liberal party principles of external policy, as laid down by the Prime Minister himself:
1.	The principle which must be followed in formulating Canada's external policy is the preservation of unity in Canada as a nation.
2.	The foreign policy of Canada, generally speaking, does not lie in her relations with the League of Nations but in her relations with the United Kingdom and the United States.
3.	Canada must, as a rule, keep in the background, in Geneva or elsewhere, whenever European or Asiatic interests are discussed.
4. Canada is in no way bound to adopt military sanctions imposed by the League of Nations, neither is she bound to defend any other member of the Commonwealth.
5. Canada is in no way bound to apply economic sanctions imposed by the League of Nations.

War Appropriation-Mr. Church
But it did apply sanctions against Italy and this action drove Italy into German arms. The next principle reads:
6.	In future, before accepting to participate in any military or economic sanctions, or in any war, the Canadian government will have to secure the approval of parliament or the Canadian people.
On May 24, 1938, the Prime Minister spoke as follows in the house:
At present danger of attack upon Canada is minor in degree and second hand in origin.
Then on March 30, 1939, another debate took place in which I participated, at which the Prime Minister said:
One strategic fact is clear: The days of great [DOT]expeditionary forces of infantry crossing the -oceans are not likely to recur. Two years ago, 1 expressed in this house the view that it was extremely doubtful if any of the British dominions would ever send another expeditionary force to England.
That statement was made just a little over *a year ago.
Then on March 31, 1939, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) stated that he agreed with what had been said by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Manion) and the Prime Minister. I should like to quote the remarks of the Minister of Justice as they appear on page 246S of Hansard of March 31, 1939:
I read in the Magazine Digest of January, 1939, a translation of an article that appeared in the great newspaper Candide of Paris, by one of the ministers of Austria under the former Chancellor von Sehusehnigg, a confidante of Schuschnigg, who gave details of a conversation that took place between the former chancellor -and Herr Hitler at the famous interview at Berchtesgaden before the invasion of Austria. May I be permitted to quote these words, which appear at page 64:
Hitler spoke plainly of the danger and the eventuality of a European war. He sketched briefly the external situation of the Reich and that of the other European states. The British empire, in his opinion, is a colossus with clay feet. The dominions would not take part iii an empire war. The break-up of the empire is not only possible, but extremely likely, should war come."
But war did come. Hitler was led to believe, as the kaiser was led to believe in 1914, that the dominions would not back up the mother country. Such speeches as we had in this house on March 31 about neutrality were sent abroad to the world. Other countries were led to believe that Canada would be neutral in the face of war. The parliament of Ulster passed a unanimous resolution telling the mother country that if she were attacked by land, sea or air, the full strength of that dominion would be sent to her aid. Did Canada pass such a resolution? No. We adopted a policy of isolation. Here is a
question I asked on May 18, 1939, and the reply I received from the Prime Minister:
1.	Has the government taken cognizance of the remarks of the Right Honourable Neville Chamberlain and the Secretary of State for War there, as to the free city of Danzig made in the British House of Commons, and calling on the British people to sleep on their haversacks, and calling up for duty large sections of the army, navy and air force at once?
2.	Will any papers on this he tabled?
3.	What was Canada's reply, and what is being done -about Canada's security?
Mr. Mackenzie King:
1.	The government are aware of the published statement to which it is understood this question refers.
2 and 3. No communications or papers have been received regarding the statement in question made by the United Kingdom Secretary of State for War, which obviously related directly to instructions being issued to the people of the United Kingdom.
Right down to the hour of the declaration of war this government continued its pacifist policies. War will never be abolished until we have made a much better job of peace than we have. War would be further off if all the sham of Geneva had been eliminated. When men will do their duty to their neighbours, war will go. What is the use of talking as they do at Geneva, about the mote in war's eye and retaining the beam in the eye of Geneva and peace? We would be nearer peace if we got rid of all these pacts and became more critical of what we have failed to do to make a success of peace. Some of the people who are preaching pacifism are being prosecuted. A trial occurred just lately at the Ottawa assizes of certain men who might be termed provocative pacifists, a term used by Mr. Chamberlain. Article thirty-seven of the Thirty-nine articles of the Church of England states that it is lawful for Christian men at the commandment of the magistrate to wear weapons and serve in the wars. If the government is going to prosecute certain people for spreading propaganda, similar action should be taken all along the line. The regulations should be tightened up all along the line. I hope the government will be a real war government. There will be no criticism either in this house or outside if they realize the situation. In my opinion all parties in Canada will have to share the responsibility for the defenceless position in which we found ourselves when war broke out. I have been preaching this gospel since I came here in 1921, but in vain.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Seeing that the house will rise in a few minutes, may I move the adjournment of the debate.
Motion agreed to and debate adjourned.

The Royal Assent



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major A. R. Thompson, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the Deputy of His Excellency the Administrator, desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the house went up to the Senate.
And having returned.
Mr. SPEAKER informed the house that the deputy 'of His Excellency the Administrator had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bill:
An act to amend the Department of National Defence Act.
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, May 23, 1940