1940-11-18

ALBERTA PROVINCIAL BANK


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the house to introduce the following motion:
That the standing committee on standing orders be instructed to inquire and report on the advisability of accepting as sufficient for this session the proceedings taken last session in respect of the presentation of a petition, the filing of a bill, and the publication of notice relative to the proposed incorporation of the Alberta Provincial bank.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, as perhaps
my hon. friend is aware, the committees have not yet been set up. The committee therefore to which his motion refers does not now exist. As soon as the present debate is concluded the committees will be set up. May I say to my hon. friend that I believe there should at that time be no difficulty in meeting his request. I believe however that the matter should stand until that time.
Motion stands.



BUSINESS OP THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a question to the Prime Minister. Having regard to the fact that many of the questions and motions for returns now on the order paper relate to Canada's war effort, will the Prime Minister seek the consent of the house for a temporary suspension of the present debate, in order that questions may be answered and returns made?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend was kind enough to notify me of his question. I have

had just a moment to consider it. If the house is in agreement I cannot see why there would be any objection to our proceeding to the order for questions on, let us say, Wednesday, to have such questions answered and such returns brought down as may be ready. Hon. members would thereby have in their possession at an earlier stage than would otherwise be possible much of the information they may wish to secure. If the house is agreeable to receiving answers to questions on Wednesday next, I believe the government will be prepared to give answers at that time.



LABOUR DISPUTE


Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I should like to direct to the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty). Has the Department of Labour been notified that the situation at No. 1-B colliery in the Glace Bay area, affecting 122 employees, classified as aliens by the native-born miners, has taken on serious proportions, the native miners refusing to accept the union executive board's decision to agree to the reemployment of foreign miners in that colliery, and threatening to use force to restrain so-called aliens from entering the mine? Is the Department of Labour contemplating any action to avoid what might become a serious situation?


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: Mr. Speaker, the matter has been brought to my attention but, I must say, not as completely or fully as has been done by the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis). It is one that is receiving the active attention of the department at the present time.



COMMONWEALTH AIR TRAINING


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power). In the Regina Leader of November 15 there is a dispatch from Saskatoon referring to the inadequate heating facilities and the lack of medical services for the

The Address-Mr. Adamson
guards at the Dafoe bombing and gunnery school. A dispatch from Ottawa, appearing in the same paper, states that the Minister of National Defence for Air had ordered an investigation. Has the minister any information to give the house as to the results of such investigation?


Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):: Mr. Speaker, I wish to
thank my hon. friend for his courtesy in giving me notice of this question and in not pressing for an answer last Friday when the news item first appeared in the paper. As a matter of fact there has been some difficulty in providing heating and water at the bombing and gunnery school at Dafoe, Saskatchewan. This school is not to be opened for several months to come, but in view of the fact that construction has been going on for some weeks and substantial progress made it was thought advisable to place a guard, composed of eighteen men and a non-commissioned officer, as a measure of security against fire and sabotage.
I have two reports from the officers of the department. The first, which is dated November 16, states:
The chief works officer at Winnipeg reports that he gave definite instructions to the senior assistant engineer in charge of the construction of the buildings that he was to secure locally a supply of sufficient stoves for the airmen's building to be used for housing of guard. This was done and the senior assistant engineer in charge reports that this building is comfortably heated and there should be no complaint whatsoever from any of the airmen presently housed in this building, and there is no lack of heating in any way.
The question of water is rather difficult in that water has to be hauled for their use and the guard for washing, cooking and drinking. This, however, does not entail any hardship on any of the men at present stationed there.
The report then goes on to say that the contractors who are building this station have several hundred men on the ground who are provided with water and heat. It would not be very difficult for eighteen men to join these civilians should an emergency occur, such as the blizzard which struck the prairies last week.
I have also a report from the inspector general of the air force, Air Vice-Marshal Croil, who states:
Inspected Dafoe to-day and investigated alleged complaints security guard. Men of guard upset by report and are not complaining. Their accommodation is temporary and during the blizzard of last week was not warm but temperature did not go to freezing. Hiring
of car for emergency transport was normal and claim for reimbursement has been made in usual way. No transport is provided to small detachments of this kind as usual thing. Water is very hard and unsuitable for washing but adequate supply of drinking water provided by contractor. Messing arrangements with contractors' men said to be satisfactory. Doctor available in half an hour for emergency.
This is all the information I am able to give my hon. friend.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, November 15, consideration of the motion of Mr. Brooke Claxton for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to 'his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury) and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Blackmore.
Mr. A. R. ADAMSON (York West):: Mr. Speaker, it occurs to me that we should give some reason for the calling of this session of parliament at this time. The government has no legislation to offer; therefore I suggest that the reason for calling this session is twofold. First, we have been called together so that the government can give to the house and the country a report on how it has been carrying on Canada's war effort. Second, we have been called together so that the people, through their opposition, may make criticism and offer suggestions where they feel that they are warranted. I believe that the calling of this session can be of inestimable value to Canada, provided, first, that heated discussions of party politics should be absent from debate and, second, that criticism offered by the opposition should be received by the government without rancour and hate.
It might be well to state briefly what has happened since we met here last June. I do not think the military position in Europe has been stated clearly enough. I believe it is still unwise to discount entirely the possibility of a German invasion of England. Each day for the last few months this possibility has been growing less, but we must not overlook the fact that it is still a possibility. Despite the heavy casualties which have been inflicted we should remember that the German army is still intact, is well equipped and continues to constitute a matchless striking force. It is also dangerous folly to think that German morale has deteriorated seriously. There may
The Address-Mr. Adamson

be a growing apathy among the people of Germany, but it is doubtful whether that has reached the fighting forces of the third reich. It is probable that friction is growing in the occupied territories, but we all know the ruthlessness of the conqueror. We should not think that outbreaks which occur here and there are a foretaste of revolution in Germany. We know how capable the Germans are of suppressing insurrection particularly by semiarmed or unarmed people.
The position of Russia and Japan must be considered by any government of Canada. The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) has advised against the making of inflammatory statements in this house, but I hope he speaks from a realistic point of view rather than with any idea of appeasement. We should not forget that the last British note to Moscow has remained unanswered for several weeks. We should remember that in Japan the extreme national party is in command of the army and the Diet. We must be prepared for hostilities in Asia, and we cannot count upon the United States considering herself obligated to send an armed force to take part in these hostilities. We may have to go this thing alone and face the forces of dictatorship and hatred which are present throughout the world.
We must take advantage of what has been learned from the invasion attempt and the aerial warfare which has occurred in England. For an invasion to be successfully carried out by one first-class power on another over water three things are necessary: first, you must have command of the sea; second, you must have command of the air; and third, you must have an overwhelming superiority in the machines on land warfare.
In the present condition of the battle of Britain we find that Britain has command of the seas. This vital asset has unquestionably saved civilization all over the world in this dark hour. It must be realized, however, that the strait of Dover is merely twenty miles across, and the use of vast quantities of smoke ingeniously employed has imposed most serious restrictions on our naval forces.
In the air, parity is rapidly being approached, although we are as yet unable to bring the battle to the enemy with the same intensity as he to us. It is doubtful whether we can be safe in assuming that we have very materially decreased his production of aircraft. A twenty per cent reduction would I believe be optimistic. Owing to our tragic losses of material in the battle of France and Flanders it must be assumed that the enemy has a vast superiority in all branches and types of the machines and instruments of land warfare.

The Prime Minister pointed out in his excellent address that Hitler now controls 42 million tons of steel while we in the British empire control a mere 18 million tons.
The enemy has not been able to effect a landing in England, with all his advantage in land materials, and a partial advantage in air materials, but without the advantage of naval superiority.
It follows I think from the foregoing that before we can carry the battle to the enemy and invade him we must have a triple superiority-by sea, by land and by air. At present we are deficient in the last two components.
Up to the present the aspect of the war in western Europe only has been considered. If we are to accept the dictum of Clause-weitz and attack the enemy's weakest point we must consider the Mediterranean theatre of war. Here we have an enemy whose morale may already be said to have reached the first stage of degeneration, namely, the apathy of the civilian population to the success of their armed forces. But before an expeditionary force can be placed in the Mediterranean theatre of war it must be able to operate away from its bases for considerable periods of time. It must have an abundance of (the materials and weapons of war. I think we are safe in saying that we can take greater liberties in our warfare against the Italians than we can take with their doughty northern axis partner. But before we can send troops from Canada to the Mediterranean theatre we must see to it not only that they are thoroughly equipped with all the necessary arms but that they have as well a very great reserve.
In view of the foregoing I think we must look carefully at Canada's present position. It appears to me that the importance of the machines of war has not yet been fully appreciated by the government. The old tank slogan, "be lavish with steel and stingy with blood," might in this war be turned to read, "be lavish with steel or perish without." At the present time in Canada we are unable to equip with all its component parts even one infantry rifle battalion, and at the present rate of Canadian production it will be several months before we can. What progress we are making in the production of artillery ordnance, anti-aircraft guns, tanks, fighting and bombing aircraft, as well as all the thousands of other pieces of equipment so necessary to an armed force, remains a secret. The vital question we have to answer is when these weapons are going to be put into the hands of our armed forces so that they may become proficient in their use in order to attack and destroy the enemy. Winston Churchill has stated in a speech, the candidness

The Address-Mr. Adamson
of which has not depressed but rather aroused the British people, that Britain was unable to supply arms and munitions for troops from overseas as her entire productive capacity was now being utilized for the troops in Britain.
Will the government state specifically the number, the calibre, the quantities and dates when we may expect delivery of these things? Perhaps the Prime Minister has forgotten that we too are British and can take it.
In this connection I should like to point out one of the difficulties and one of the cautions that have to be observed in giving information. A balance must be kept between the danger of giving information to the enemy on the one hand, and the evil of having an uninformed Canadian people on the other. This problem must be solved. It is here I suggest that a military committee of the house would be of great value. They could meet with the general staff and receive explanations of what is being accomplished, production figures, schedides, etcetera. If such a committee were formed it could report to the house on matters which were not secret. On secret matters it could say that the information it had received was secret but satisfactory and that progress was being made. This would save the minister a great deal of work and criticism and no doubt relieve the general staff of a number of headaches. It would be a non-partisan committee and therefore would be most likely to inspire confidence in the country.
I think the house would be interested in knowing the sort of information the Germans would like to get. Let us take a hypothetical case. We are building tanks in Canada with, shall we say, ten centimetre armour. The Germans have in production two anti-tank guns, one of which pierces five centimetre armour and another which will pierce ten centimetre armour. If we gave to this house the information that we were producing tanks with ten centimetre armour the Germans would immediately say, "This gun of ours is of no further use. We will concentrate on the production of a gun which will pierce the tanks the Canadians are making." That is the sort of information it would be dangerous to give. That is the sort of information which, as the minister said, the Germans are spending millions of dollars trying to obtain. I submit that that sort of information should not be given except in the very greatest secrecy.
But here is the sort of information which I think we should have. I know the production of Bren guns and it is excellent. I think the minister should state what the production of Bren guns is, for the good effect 14873-11
it would have on the morale of the people of Canada. It is one of the essential things we should have-that and other information of production which cannot give aid and comfort to the enemy. Too much secrecy, Mr. Speaker, is bad for the morale of the people. If we had this information I feel sure that the next time we went to the country with a war loan the people would rally round much better than they did the last time, and the loan would be oversubscribed in a much shorter time. I leave that suggestion with the government for what it may be worth.
I come now to the question of the carrying out and the carrying on of the war, particularly against the southern member of the axis. In all seriousness I suggest to this house that we, the second greatest enemy of Germany and the greatest Catholic country at war with Germany, should inform the Prime Minister of England that we are prepared to see our air force bomb Rome. I say this as a Christian, as one who has been in Rome; I do not know how many other members of the house have been there. I have seen the service in St. Peter's; I have received the blessing of His Holiness the Vicar of Christ. I have seen the catacombs, where St. Peter and St. Paul carved their names on the sides of the caves that were used as churches, and I have stood in the coliseum where for over four hundred years the Christians were martyred. Nowhere is the long, bitter, violent fight for a Christian civilization better exemplified than in the coliseum at Rome, where to-day stands a simple wooden cross denoting the triumph of Christianity over the forces of barbarism. The symbol of pagan Rome was the fasces. The symbol of Mussolini's Rome is the same fasces. To-day in that city the monument to Victor Emmanuel, with the rampant horses and the pagan symbol of the chariot atop, makes a wonderful target. The Piazza Venezia is right next door, and these are all far removed from the holy city, the Vatican. These make excellent targets. If you can once drive a dictator out of his capital you make it impossible for him to exist. If we can destroy the confidence of the people of Italy in their pagan leader we will have done a great service and struck a great blow for Christianity.
Since the government has asked for suggestions, and since it should be the policy of the opposition to offer constructive criticism, I should like now to make some concrete suggestions to the government.
First, the place to defend Canada is in Europe. To wait and delay until the war is brought to Canada, until our own country becomes the battlefield and our own women and children are bombed, would be criminal



The Address-Mr. Adamson

folly. We must defend ourselves on the battlefield three thousand miles away, not in Canada. Therefore I suggest that we must be prepared to equip and send overseas a large, well-prepared striking force.
Second, at the present time we cannot equip the forces we now have under arms, nor can we obtain equipment for them elsewhere. So that the production of arms becomes of more immediate importance than man-power. This is our most pressing problem. The Canadian people must be informed accurately and precisely, not merely by way of a recapitulation of the contracts let, as to the true state of our war effort.
Third, the training of military personnel must be so arranged as not to conflict with industry. A comprehensive plan must be prepared by all industries engaged in our war effort, indicating the present and future demands in regard to man-power. To-day we have approximately 50,000 employable unemployed in this country. It is estimated that by July of next year industry will require a further 500,000 technically trained men. These men are as vital to the defence of Canada at the present time as are the soldiers who enlist in our army. Therefore I suggest that the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Gardiner) should go to the registration list and call out for training in our munitions industries all available people between the ages of eighteen and fifty, in order to make up this apparent deficiency.
Let me cite just one instance. The John Inglis company of Toronto now employs 2,500 people. By July it hopes to employ about
6,000	people, but it does not know where to get those additional men. This company is engaged in highly technical, highly skilled work. Men must be trained for this work before they can be employed, and now is the time to train them. Now is the time to call them out from their ordinary civilian occupations and train them for employment in our war industries. This is a total war. Each of us in Canada has a job to do. If we are employed in civilian occupations and the government needs us for war work, whether as a soldier or in making machine guns, we must be prepared to go and do the country's bidding. Therefore I suggest an immediate recapitulation of the national registration scheme, calling out all those who may become useful in our war industries.
I should like to advance three further suggestions of a military nature, because I consider it my duty to do so after having observed existing conditions. First I should like to discuss the much discussed issue of free transportation for soldiers.

Manifestly it is impossible for any government to be expected to provide free transportation every six months from Newfoundland or the West Indies. These troops are on active service. In the last war we did not get leave to Canada except under very exceptional circumstances. I understand the present policy is to rotate the units in the various outposts so that all may get leave whenever the military situation permits. Where you have large concentrations of troops in central Canada, as at Borden or Niagara, a serious problem, however, does present itself. I believe the men get two week-end passes a month from Borden. This means that about 5,000 troops are moved, mostly down Yonge street, every Friday and back on Sunday night. The return fare by train is $1.85, considerably more than the average day's pay of the Canadian soldier. The men naturally hitch-hike, and this causes congestion on the roads and is bound to mean casualties, many more in winter than in summer. I suggest that a troop train be run from Borden to Toronto, and I suggest further that a fare of 50 cents be charged, and also that the train be under the command of the provost corps to ensure discipline en route, and that the train be run every major leave day. If this were done and a provost squad patrolled Yonge street and prohibited hitch-hiking many lives would be saved, the troops would get good, cheap and rapid transportation, and general economy would result.
I am not sure whether the house knows that it costs the country about $6,000 for every soldier killed in an accident, and besides that the country has to look after his dependents. I suggest that for short leaves and short passes a ferry service could be run from Borden to Barrie, for five cents each way, and no hitch-hiking on this road should be allowed. I suggest also that a ferry service be run from Niagara to St. Catharines to look after the Niagara camps. It is only where you get great concentrations of troops that danger exists. The Canadian people are only too willing to give troops a lift on the highways, but where major camps are situated special arrangements must be considered.


Mr. SPEAKER:: I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. member, but last week I had occasion to call attention to the fact that speeches were being read during this debate and I asked hon. members to be good enough to assist the chair in seeing that this practice shall not be followed. If I allow the hon. member to read his speech I must allow every other hon. member the right to do likewise.

The Address-Mr. Adamson


Agar Rodney Adamson: I quite agree with you, Mr. Speaker, but I was reading this statement in order to get it accurately on the record, because it is of great importance to the military authorities and to the troops at present training in Canada.
It is difficult to forecast the future, but it would seem to me that the peculiar genius of the Canadian soldier for mechanical warfare has not been sufficiently appreciated, and I make this suggestion, that we increase the strength of our armoured brigade to at least an armoured division. It is extremely probable that when our troops are called overseas they will have to fight in mountainous country. I therefore make the further suggestion that instruction in mountain warfare be given our troops or certain parts thereof. This could be done very easily at stations in the Rocky mountains or in the Laurentian hills.
There is one thing more I would suggest to the minister, and that is that when the troops go over in this war it is very unlikely that they will be able to receive a further period of training in the theatre of war. They will have to go from Canada completely trained and completely equipped to participate in warfare immediately. I would suggest that a training ground in, say, northern Ontario or northern Quebec be made where our troops could have experience in cooperation with the other arms of the service-using tanks, mechanized units, artillery and infantry together, as in actual combat, so that they will become familiar with the peculiarities of the arms and with essential methods of unified warfare. At the present time the infantry train very largely with the infantry, the artillery are to a certain extent segregated at Petawawa; and while there are tanks at Borden greater scope should be given to them. We have ample territory in northern Ontario for such a scheme to be worked out.
Further, with regard to internment camps, I suggest that these camps be placed entirely under the jurisdiction of the district officer commanding the military district in which they are situated, and that he be made responsible for the discipline and the entire running of the camps. At present there is a duality of command, which is likely to lead to certain discomfort in the operation of this service. I do not know whether the house realizes that in many instances the German prisoner is rewarded by his government, or at any rate promised reward by his government, of an increase in rank for every attempt he makes to escape. This increases the number of attempts to escape.


Mr. RALSTON:: My hon. friend knows, better than most I suppose, the method of administration of the internment camps, and I am sure that if he will look at the orders which have been issued he will be able to satisfy himself that there is no duality of command. The district officer commanding is in control. What my hon. friend refers to is the fact that there is a provost corps and a veterans guard, each of which has a central commander; but the responsibility for the camps is under the district officer commanding. The same situation exists with regard to the ordnance corps. That is a separate corps, with some control from headquarters, but at the same time the ordnance officer is under the district officer commanding.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I appreciate that. I was referring to the provost corps and the veterans guard.


James Layton Ralston: There is no duality of command so far as control of the internment camps is concerned.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Under the director of
internment operations?


James Layton Ralston: He reports only to the Secretary of State.


Agar Rodney Adamson: The district officer commanding is entirely responsible for all?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am glad to have that information.
I should like to make two or three suggestions in connection with the industrial aspects of our war effort. I suggest these two things to the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). There are some technical terms which I should like to have permission to read, because I wish to get them all on the record correctly.
I suggest that steps be taken for the manufacture of starch from wheat and potatoes. My information is that there is no technical difficulty in this process either from potatoes or from wheat; that while several small potato starch concerns do now exist there is no wheat starch plant. I am also informed that wheat starch can to a very large extent replace corn starch and that wheat dextrin could be used instead of corn dextrin, of which Canada imports about 10,000,000 pounds annually. Further, that wheat makes excellent confectioner's glucose, 60,000,000 pounds of which are used per year in Canada. This is now made one hundred per cent from imported com.
The Address-Mr. Adamson

My second suggestion relates to alcohol made from wheat and potatoes. Alcohol for admixture with petroleum-produced gasoline is common in Europe. To-day England is being bombed by the Luftwaffe using a high octane fuel which is a mixture of potato and petroleum refineries. There are no technical difficulties which would prevent the use of a wheat-based alcohol. My information is that a mixture of ten to fifteen per cent alcohol is common. We have to-day in storage 840 million bushels of wheat; next year there may be over a billion bushels in storage. All our petroleum products have to be imported either in the raw or in the refined state, thus using valuable foreign exchange. Surely the government might foster the operation of a plant of this kind as an emergency war measure.
I have a third suggestion to make. My friends the colloidal chemists have repeatedly asked me why no aeroplane frames made of plastics were being turned out. I understand that a year or so ago representations were made to the government to investigate this field. It was pointed out that Canada was a non-ferrous country and that the construction of aeroplane frames would probably be beset with great difficulties because of the lack of trained metal workers. It was also shown that we have an abundance of the ingredients to produce the finest laminated plastics, and that their manufacture even into complicated air-frames does not require great numbers of highly skilled workmen. It is also known that these raw materials are not available to the enemy in anything like our quality or quantity. Surely all possible effort should be given to this work, which may revolutionize the production of aircraft and put Canada right in the van of production. I understand some experiments are being made now, but my criticism of the government is that they should have been made long ago, and either we should now be producing plastic aircraft or we should know that their production is impracticable.


Mr. HOWE:: When we were first approached on the subject of plastic air-frames we placed an order with the inventor, who was then in production, for three. At the same time we started experiments of our own in ithe national research laboratories. Both these approaches have been followed up continuously; no time has been lost.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Will the minister give further information on this subject when he speaks?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Certainly.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I should like to bring up as an example one further subject-bentonite. This substance is used in the manufacture of lubricating oils. It is now imported to the extent of 15,000 tons a year, the value per ton being about S80 in United States funds. We have a deposit of excellent quality in Manitoba. Has this been investigated? If not, why not? I mention this item, which is small, as an example of the development work to be done in Canada and as showing that we must utilize all our natural assets to win the war. Let us learn a lesson from the enemy, whose scientific use of all the natural resources of his country has been one important factor in his success to date.
I also believe it is our duty, as the senior dominion, to recommend the formation of an imperial war cabinet. In the last war we had an imperial war cabinet, and it proved, I think the Prime Minister will agree, of great value. In this war the British empire stands alone; we have no ally. Surely it is even more essential now that we should have an imperial war cabinet to discuss cooperation, mutual assistance and other matters. The position of the high commissioner is not enough; the government should seriously consider the bringing into being of an imperial war cabinet.
Finally let me say to the Prime Minister that we appreciate the difficulties of his government. We appreciate the difficulty of running Canada's war effort. We want to be led, we want to be told, we want to know what he is going to do. We want the leadership, the courageous leadership of Winston Churchill. We want to be told what to do. We know that if the government fails we fail too, all democratic things fall, and that goes for our way of life in Canada. The country is behind the government, but the country demands that the government shall give leadership. I leave that with the Prime Minister. The country will follow, the country will work, the country is with you, but for God's sake give us leadership.


Charles Gavan Power: Mr. Speaker, I confess
that in preparing the notes which I thought would be required to make a factual statement of the position of Canada with respect to the development of the air force I was somewhat embarrassed as to the extent of the information which it would be possible for me to give to the house. My hon. friend who has just spoken (Mr. Adamson) has still further increased my embarrassment by asking that the ministers give an account

The Address-Mr. Power
of the numbers, categories and types, dates of delivery of war material and equipment necessary to arm our forces.
Quite frankly, in considering this matter in regard to the air force, I do not know just what reply should be made to my hon. friend. I have in mind particularly the air training scheme; after all what hon. members of this house and the country want to know is not what the schedule is or how far we have advanced it, but how many pilots are going to be sent overseas and when. They also want to know what aircraft we have and of what types; those we actually have on hand and those which are to be delivered, and when. Unfortunately the advice which we receive from overseas-and I have a dispatch under my hand-is to the effect that there is considerable danger in making public detailed information with respect to these very things-that is, the output of the scheme and aircraft production.
Now, I have been long enough a back bencher in this house to look askance at what I might call ministerial alibis, but I ask the house to believe me, and to prove what I say I am quite willing to hand over to my hon. friend the acting leader of the opposition (Mr. Stirling) a copy of the dispatch which I have mentioned, and to give him or any other hon. member a full and complete statement showing the number of pilots, observers and gunners that will be produced from this scheme and the number of aircraft we have on hand and will have on hand for several months. However I hope the house will excuse me from mentioning it during the course of this statement.
Perhaps at this point I ought to give the strength of the Royal Canadian Air Force as of different dates. On September 1, 1939, there were 450 officers and 4,000 airmen. On April 1, 1940, there were 1,223 officers, 9,444 airmen and 1,241 civilians. On November 12, 1940, there were 2,389 officers, 29,096 airmen and 4,586 civilians. There are at the present time, included in the above figures, undergoing training as air crews men numbering 7,227. Last month vce enlisted 1,900 air crews men.
For the purpose of giving an exposition of the work of the Royal Canadian Air Force we have usually divided the activities into three parts, namely that of the air force overseas, that of what is known as the home war establishment-the air force in Canada- and that of the joint air training plan.
With respect to the air force overseas I would say this. There are at the present time overseas representing Canada three squadrons-one fighter, one army cooperation, and one which has up to the present been known as a pool or composite squadron, which
went over originally as an army cooperation squadron.
No. 110 army cooperation squadron proceeded to England early in the year 1940 under the command of Squadron Leader, now Wing Commander Van Vliet of Winnipeg. The squadron went into intensive training with the Royal Air Force, performing the work allotted to it in training and in reconnaissance. It was placed under the operational control of the Royal Air Force during the months of May and June, and has continued to perform the functions allotted to it by the Royal Air Force. But it is at the same time attached to the army division commanded by Lieutenant General McNaughton.
As the house will remember, No. 1 fighter squadron was dispatched to England during the month of June, at a time when matters appeared to be at their darkest overseas. The house will recollect that two squadrons, namely No. 112 and No. 1 fighter squadron, were dispatched overseas. No. 1 fighter squadron was under the command of Squadron Leader, now Wing Commander Ernest McNab of Saskatchewan. It was immediately placed under the tutelage of the Royal Air Force, for training, and to gain the latest experience in aerial warfare.
Prior to working together as a squadron, squadron leaders, individual pilot officers and others had their turn of duty in actual combat with the Royal Air Force. When it was deemed ready to take its place in active operation as a unit, it was declared to be "acting in combination with" the Royal Air Force and then came under the operational control of the British Royal Air Force. It has been occupied steadily in operational work in the defence of London, since that time, with the exception of a three weeks holiday or rest which was given to it some time ago. It has now returned to its operational duties.
I need not dwell at great length on the magnificent work carried on by that fighter squadron. Members of it have won awards, decorations, and the highest praise and eulogies from their companions in the Royal Air Force and from the press of Great Britain generally, as well as from Britain's most prominent statesmen. They have carried on in the tradition which was created twenty years ago by the Canadian boys who served in the Royal Air Force. They have been in the thick of the fighting. They have been a source of pride and glory to our country.
With respect to No. 112 army cooperation squadron, which, as I said, was converted into a pool reinforcing squadron for No. 110 army cooperation squadron as well as for No. 1 fighter squadron, it has been carrying on its work in training and in reconnaissance. I
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believe I might say here that a great many of the officers were somewhat unhappy about it. They were somewhat impatient in that they wished to take a more active part in the operations. But the exigencies of the situation did not require that their services should be utilized in the defence of Britain, and up to the present time they have not been. During the last week, however, as a consequence of the supply of trained pilots from the Royal Canadian Air Force in Canada who have been going forward as reinforcements, and owing to the fact that the output from the joint air training plan is beginning to make itself felt, and that that output will continue in a highly satisfactory degree, it is now possible for us to transform No. 112 cooperation squadron into No. 2 Canadian fighter squadron. Very shortly these men will take their place alongside No. 1 fighter squadron in the battle of London and in the defence of Great Britain.
Reports which we have concerning our men overseas generally indicate that their health has been good, that discipline has been exemplary, that morale has been high, that they get along extremely well with their Royal Air Force comrades, that there is the closest cooperation between the Canadian Army and the Canadian air force, and, finally, that there is coordination of effort and cooperation with the authorities of the air ministry.
1 cannot leave this brief review of our activities overseas without making mention of the Royal Air Force Canadian squadron. The Canadian squadron of the Royal Air Force is manned almost entirely by boys from Canada, many of whom were trained in the Royal Canadian Air Force and others in the flying schools across the country. Since the break through in Holland and Belgium they have been giving a magnificent example of devotion to duty and of courage in the most active operations and, as the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) said a few days ago, they have earned a very large number of awards and have to their credit a great many victories over the Germans.
The home war establishment to all intents and purposes is the backbone of the Royal Canadian Air Force. It has been denuded of its personnel, first by the dispatch overseas of a great many of its officers and men, and, second, by the necessity of using the men trained in the home establishment for purposes of the joint air training scheme. Nevertheless it has been able to carry out the duties and functions allotted to it with remarkable persistence and success.
Briefly, its duties are the reconnaissance of bays and inlets and ports on the coast in order

to ascertain if the enemy is trying to establish himself in these outlying districts; to patrol the harbour entrance of protected seaports to locate any possible undersea enemy craft, and to perform the work of anti-submarine patrol in connection with convoys, both outgoing and incoming, throughout the hours of daylight and to assist surface escorts. On many occassions these patrols extend far out into the Atlantic. It has also the duty of being constantly prepared for bombing and striking duties in support of the naval forces, or when required to attack enemy surface craft, raiders or others located by reconnaissance. It provides air striking force against hostile raiders, submarines and potential landing parties, as well as searching the coast for the enemy. All our aircraft on these duties carry bombs and armament sufficient to attack the enemy on sight.
In addition to the bomber reconnaissance squadrons there are other squadrons whose duty it is to assist the coast artillery in spotting during target practice, and of necessity to be ready for spotting duties should more serious work occur. Since I last addressed the house in June the establishment has been considerably increased. There has been authorized a much greater establishment for both coasts. However, I must say that it has not been found possible to fill up to strength all establishments, either in personnel or aircraft. The training plan and supplementary schools are supplying personnel, and there is an improvement in the aircraft situation. The improvement will be greater as time goes on. On July' 29, 1939, I said the following:
In consequence of the situation in Britain, although our aircraft equipment resources at the moment may not be so great as might be considered desirable, we would not wish to make good our shortages by depriving Great Britain of supplies essential to her immediate needs from sources to which both Canada and the United Kingdom has access.
That was the policy with respect to the strengthening of the home war forces and the defence forces in general, and that policy is still in effect to-day.
A word as to the officers and men who are on duty in Canada. During the recess I had the pleasure and privilege of visiting the air force stations from Newfoundland on the Atlantic coast to Prince Rupert on the Pacific, and I was struck by the high morale, the good discipline and the excellent spirits which prevailed among these men. It is not an easy task that they have to perform. It is not very pleasant to be stationed at the Gander Lake air port in Newfoundland or at Alliford Bay, Bella Bella or Coal Harbour on the Pacific coast. These men are far away

The Address-Mr. Power
from any form of amusement and from any-think like real companionship. They are not near the bright lights of the big cities. In the performance of their duties they have to fly in all kinds of weather, through fog and snow, in season and out of season. Although their work is not so glamorous or thrilling as the work of the men overseas; although they will receive little publicity for performing their duties conscientiously as they do, I believe that we in this house should pay them the tribute of saying that their work is well done.
I come now to the joint air training plan. In connection with this scheme there are three important factors which must be taken into consideration. First, there is the personnel; second, there is the aerodrome development and construction, and, third, there is the supplying and provisioning of aircraft. The whole aim and object of the plan, which is sometimes confused with side issues and supplementary work which is being carried on, is to produce fighting pilots and air crews. There are all kinds of incidentals leading up to this production, but the thing upon which we must set our eye is the fact that the main production of the air training school is pilots, gunners and observers. That is all important. The rest, although necessary, are only incidental and supplementary. At all costs we must produce as soon as we can and as efficiently as we can the greatest possible number of those who will take their place in the fighting line.
In order to indicate the complications incidental to the operation of the joint air training plan, which sometimes confuses the public and even those who are close to the scheme, perhaps it would be better if I gave a concrete illustration. We have in Ottawa, at Uplands, a service flying training school. These schools are probably the most important of all the schools in the scheme. It is in these schools that the pilot receives his instruction in what are known as intermediate and advanced flying. From there he proceeds overseas. All hon. members may not have seen this school, but I am sure that most have heard it at work, particularly in the early hours of the morning when sleep appears to be most blessed.
There are less than two hundred pupils at this school, but the staff necessary to look after the accommodation of the pupils, the maintenance of the aircraft and buildings and the administration of the school number 853. In some respects this school is the opposite to what is to be found in other schools or universities. In order to get together this staff of 853-I am now referring to what I have
termed incidentals and supplementaries-we had to train practically all the members. For instance, there are fifty-five officers, 638 airmen and 160 civilians. There are thirty-five flying instructors. These instructors all had to go to a school for instruction at the central flying training school at Trenton, which turns out in varying numbers a certain number of instructors every month.
There are, at Uplands, officers whose duty it is to carry on the work of administration. Most of them, except for a very few who were connected with the permanent force, are men who only two or three months ago held positions in civil life. The work of administration of flying schools is not similar to the work which they were in all probability carrying on in civil life, and it was necessary therefore to send them also to a school for instruction. We opened a school of instruction at Trenton under an experienced air force officer who knew something of the problems of running an air training school, and there we turn out an average of approximately forty administrative officers per month.
There are also connected with Uplands, equipment officers and accounting officers. It was necessary to send these men to an equipment and accounting school. A school was opened at St. Thomas, which up to the present has graduated 160 equipment officers, 707 equipment assistants, 88 accounting officers and 446 accounting clerks. For a while the school was turning out approximately 171 pupils every six weeks but I am happy to say that we have pretty nearly completed the work of training this particular type of officer, and I think the output of this particular school will taper off and in the future come down to nothing.
Again at Uplands there are wireless officers and wireless operators, some of them in the commissioned ranks and some other ranks. Most of these men are graduates of the wireless school at Montreal, where men are trained to take their places in future wireless schools under the joint air training plan or in the home war establishment; and from these schools men have already been sent overseas to take their place alongside the Royal Air Force in the present combat.
We also need engineering officers. All these men I would say have previously occupied positions as engineers in civil life. We have sent them to the school of aeronautical engineering in Montreal, which turns out twenty aeronautical engineers every three months.
Again we had to open as incidental and supplementary schools, schools for armament
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officers, armament instructors and armourers. Again I repeat, I do not want the house to confuse these men with the eventual output of the flying schools, which is air crews. A school was opened at Trenton, where at regular intervals men are being turned out to be armament instructors, armament officers and armourers.
Back of these schools which train the men who help to maintain the flying schools in operation, there are other units which we must take into consideration. There are, for instance, equipment units, four of them, one located at Montreal, one at Toronto, one at Winnipeg and one at Calgary. These equipment depots are composed of approximately sixty buildings. They have practically everything inside them from a needle to an anchor-barrack room equipment; articles for the upkeep, repair and overhaul of aircraft; articles needed for the comfort and convenience of the men-everything from stationery to the largest type of aircraft. These depots have to be manned, and equipment officers and equipment clerks have been trained to man them.
Then there are repair depots where airframe mechanics and machinists carry on the repair work for the stations or the commands in which these repair depots are located. There are at present three, one each at Trenton, Winnipeg and Calgary. Each one of these repair depots employs from 500 to 600 airmen, mostly mechanics.
There are also schools for training motor boat crewmen, to be used in crash boats on both coasts. There are schools to train aircraft inspectors; there are manning depots and initial training schools.
But by far the most important of the supplementary schools, and that is why I leave it to the last, is the technical training school located at St. Thomas, Ontario. We were fortunate in securing through the Hon. Mr. Hepburn and the government of Ontario an institution the like of which I doubt could have been obtained anywhere else in the British empire. I do not want to dwell upon the magnitude or magnificence of the building except to say that there is located at St. Thomas one of the most modern and best constructed institutions in the world. The government of Ontario very generously placed it at the disposal of the government of Canada shortly after the war broke out. In this institution, which is devoted largely to the training of mechanics, we have been able to house approximately 4,000 pupils. There is a staff of 420. The pupils are trained mostly in air-frame mechanics and aeroengine mechanics. A flow system has been

established whereby approximately 150 men come in every week and 150 graduate. The course lasts eighteen weeks. The men are sent to the stations, home establishment or the air training plan. I am not going to say that these men become perfect machinists or mechanics, but they receive a training sufficient to enable them to do the work which we have to ask them to perform when they reach the schools such as the one at Uplands, where at the beginning they are placed probably under the charge of some senior man; and there they do the work of checking, overhauling and repairing the aircraft used by the pilot pupils. This school I think would be a revelation to anyone who cared to look at it. The men are well accommodated; so far as I was able to ascertain they are well treated, comfortable and happy. The work being done is of the utmost importance, and appears to be carried out efficiently.
In passing may I say that something like 253 air-frame mechanics and 120 air engine mechanics are required for a station like Uplands, so that the importance of St. Thomas as a pool from which we can draw the men required is not to be exaggerated.
In order to get pupils for St. Thomas advantage has been taken of the youth training programme; in conjunction with many of the provinces-seven out of nine-men are being sent to technical training schools after having been medically examined by the air force and after having been told that when they pass their examinations at the provincial technical training schools they will have the option of coming into the air force if we require them. From this source last year we obtained 1,500 recruits, and this year we are hoping to obtain
6,000	more. It is confidently hoped that by means of the youth training programme and the facilities offered by the provinces in conjunction with the air force, and through graduations from the technical school at St. Thomas, it will be possible for the air force to obtain almost all its requirements in regard to trained mechanics without in any way robbing industry. It is true that to some extent we will impinge on industry's potential, in that we are taking a great many of the younger men and training them ourselves; but on the other hand I sincerely hope that it will not be necessary for the air force to resort to direct enlistment from industry. By training our men almost from the beginning we will be able to develop men who will be satisfactory in that they will be competent to do the work which will be allotted to them.
Now for a moment or two I should like to discuss some of the other schools whose activities are concerned with the training of

The Address-Mr. Power
air crews, pilots, gunners and observers, with particular reference to elementary flying training schools and air observers' schools.
Of late, if I am to judge by the questions and motions for papers appearing on the order paper, hon. members have begun to take an interest in the elementary training schools and air observer's schools. The function of these schools is evident from their names, but what apparently has not been generally appreciated by the members of the house is that schools of these two types are operated by civilian companies. Almost it would appear as though in some way this fact had been kept secret. Personally I had intended mentioning it on several occasions, but did not find it convenient or appropriate to do so.
By way of digression, I may say that I was talking to one of my friends and confidants about the difficulties I would have in making this statement to the house in view of the fact that I could not disclose all particulars of the training scheme. This man, for a long time a member of this house and possessing a caustic wit, said, "Why don't you place it on Hansardt That is the best way to keep a secret, for nobody ever reads Hansard." That observation to some extent is borne out by the fact that last year an hon. member asked for the production of papers with respect to civilian training schools, including the model contract entered into between these schools and the government. I produced that contract and called attention to the fact that certain matters pertaining to it were of a confidential nature. But so confidential did this hon. member keep it that to-day I find on the order paper, in the name of his next-door neighbour in this house, a request for the production of the same document.
At the present time and for some time past in Great Britain elementary flying training has been carried on by civilian organizations. When the scheme first came up for discussion in Canada it was decided to follow the example of Britain, for a good many reasons, most of which I think will appeal to the judgment of the house. It was decided to take advantage of the experience of the flying clubs in Canada. Each club in this country has been offered and will accept the sponsorship of a company to operate an elementary flying training school. The procedure was something like this: Officials of the air force inquired of the Department of Transport the location of the nearest civilian flying club. When they were given that information they approached the members of that club, men who in season and out during the past years, in spite of a great deal of discouragement in many cases, have pioneered and developed flying in Canada. These men were asked to operate flying 14873-12
schools, and were told: "In order to obtain this contract, first you must form a company sponsored by your club." That was in order that there should be no debts left over from the club, and no involvement of any kind with the club's finances.
Each of these flying clubs incorporated an elementary training school. They were asked to furnish a certain capital, from $35,000 to $50,000. The government furnishes the buildings and the aircraft on loan and the companies furnish the management, the instruction, the food and the maintenance of the aircraft. The contract is something like this. There is paid a management fee of $1,400 for every four weeks-it works in four-week periods. That is the period during which the pupils are stationed at the school. Out of the $1,400 the operating company-that is to say, the club transformed into the operating company-must pay their manager's fee, their secretary, treasurer, stenographers, telephone operators and the whole general office staff. Other fees are paid in accordance with the number of hours flown, and generally there is paid the cost of gasoline and oil, and possibly other incidentals.
No company is allowed to pay a dividend of more than five per cent on the subscribed capital of $35,000. The books of the company, which are set up by government accountants and supervised and inspected continuously by government accountants, provide that at the end of thirty-six weeks, that is six accounting periods of forty-two days, there shall be a revision of the contract, and the government steps in and takes away 75 per cent of any profit which may have been made during that time, and fixes a new price on the basis of that profit for the ensuing six months.
No company can distribute more than five per cent; the rest remains in the treasury of the company, to be reviewed every six months, the object of the review being to ensure that the remuneration shall closely approximate the expenditure.
Those most closely in touch with it believe that there will be little or no profit to be made by elementary flying companies out of this venture, but the government must see to it that at least enough profit is made to keep them in operation, because it is considered extremely important that this work should be done by civilian companies; otherwise the hundred or more employees on the staff of these stations would have to be enlisted in the air force and would be a continuing liability to the government in the way of pensions, keep, pay and so on.
Every flying club in Canada will have an opportunity, and has agreed, to undertake to

The Address-Mr. Power

sponsor one of these companies, and we have men in civilian life who are thoroughly familiar with flying under all the conditions that prevail in Canada, men who have supported flying to a greater extent than any other civilians in the country. I may add that in at least two instances and probably more-one instance being Vancouver and the other St. Catharines-these elementary school companies have been incorporated on a nonprofit basis, and the charter shows that they do not intend to take any profit whatsoever. In one other instance the promoters and directors have inscribed in the minutes a resolution to the effect that they do not propose to take any profit but that any profit made will be invested in government bonds to be cancelled after the war. In two or three instances I know of, the manager of the club, who would naturally draw a salary of $300 or $400 a month, is turning that salary back to the government either in the form of subscriptions to war charities or by direct contribution.


Mr. STIRLING:: Has the minister mentioned how many of these schools there are?


Charles Gavan Power: There will be twenty-six elementary training schools in Canada when the scheme is completed. Perhaps that is not quite correctly stated; I should say there will be twenty-six units, because three of the schools will be doubled; that is to say, instead of taking in seventy pupils they will take one hundred and forty. In other words, under the same group there will be two schools combined. One of the double schools is at Boundary Bay, another at Oshawa and another at Vernon.
At present there are sixteen schools in operation. I have prepared a list of the schools showing the name of the club sponsoring and the designation of the operating company. I have also a list of directors of each of these operating companies. With the permission of the house I should like to place this information on Hansard:
Directors of Elementary Flying Training Schools and Air Observer Schools as at November 15, 1940
No. 1, E.F.T.S.-Malton Flying Training School Ltd., Malton, Ont.
President-C. E. French-Ontario Sales Rep., Howard Smith Paper Mills Ltd.
W. A. McLeod-Sales Manager, H. H. Crang & Co., Brokers.
R.	E. H. Bowman-Accountant, City of Toronto Waterworks Dept.

H. R. Bertram-Plant Supt., Minneapolis Honeywell Regulator Co.
F.	L. Grang-Agent and Distributor, Nu-Enamel Limited.
J. B. Neeve-Research Engineer and Distributor for Hydrating Equipment.
W. M. Alexander-Alexander & Cable Lithographing Co. Ltd.
Manager-E. O. Houghton-Owner of a chain of drug stores.
Prof. T. R. Loudon-Professor of Engineering, University of Toronto.
No. 2, E.F.T.S.-Thunder Bay Air Training School Ltd., Fort William, Ont.
President-H. F. Dougall-Owner, Radio Station C.K.P.R.
R. B. Pow-Supt. Reliance Terminal Elevator.
P. H. B. Dawson-Chartered Accountant.
C.	E. Chappie-Pres., Chappies Ltd., Department Store.
D.	E. McKay-Pres., C. E. McKay Agency (Insurance and S.S. Agents).
H. M. Piper-Hardware Merchant.
J. G. MacDonald-Retired Gentleman.
No. 3, E.F.T.S.-London Elem. Flying Training School Ltd., London, Ont.
President-R. H. Reid-Dir. and Exec. Asst. London Life Ins. Co.
R. H. Cronyn-Trust Exec. Canada Trust Co. and Dir. John Labatt Ltd.
R. G. Ivey, K.C.-Barrister; President, Northern Life Assurance Co.; President, London Street Railway Co.; Director, Silverwoods Limited; Director, London Realty Company; Director, Bathurst Power & Paper Company; Director, Canadian General Insurance Co.
D. B. Weldon-President, Midland Securities Corporation; Director, Goderich Elevator & Transit Co.: Director, Cities Heating Company Ltd.; Director, London Street Railw-ay Company; Director, London Realty Company; Director, National Dry Limited.
Chester F. Stevens-President, Empire Brass Mfg. Company Ltd.
Secretary-Treasurer-N. J. Peever-Managing Director National Dry Limited; Director Proctor Packers Limited.
President

Geo. S. Durand-Owner Durand Insurance Brokerage; President, London Flying Club Limited; Vice-President London Agents Association.
No. 4, E.F.T.S.-Windsor Mills Flying Training School Ltd., Windsor Mills, P.Q.
President-Sidney Dawes, M.C.-President, Atlas Construction Co. Ltd.
J. D. Tudhope, M.C.-Montreal Rep. Canadian Aviation Ins. Mgrs. Ltd.
P. S. Fisher, D.S.O., D.S.C.-Vice-Pres., Southam Company Limited.
G.	A. Birks, M.C.-Director, McTaggart, Hannaford, Birks & Gordon Ltd.
R. Smith, A.F.C.-Secretary, Canadian Industries Limited.
F.	W. Dougherty-Pres., Montreal Stencil Works Ltd.
F.	Eugene Therrien-Advocate, St. Jacques, Arehambault, Prieur, Therrien and Gagnon.

The Address-Mr. Power
No. 5, E.F.T.S.-Lethbridge Flying Training School Ltd., Lethbridge, Alberta.
President-C. W. Roenisch-Vice-President, Midland & Pacific Grain Co.
T. N. Sandgathe-United Grain Growers. Managing-Director-D. K. Yorath.
J. Cross-President, Calgary Brewing & Malting Co.
H.	R. Carson-President, Taylor, Pearson & Carson, Ltd.
C. E. Morris-Manager, Bell & Morris, Limited.
G.	Egbert-Barrister.
No. 6, E.F.T.S.-Northern Saskatchewan Flying Training School Ltd., Prince Albert. President-Hugh Sibbald-Contractor.
H.	Holroyde-Real Estate and Insurance Agent.
Manager-Stewart McKereher-Barrister.
R. Mayson-Manager, Mayson & Campbell Aviation.
P. W. Mahon-Real Estate and Insurance Agent.
A. I. Wilkinson-Insurance Broker.
A. J. E. Sumner-Insurance Broker.
Dr. W. D. McPhail-Physician.
A. A. Murphy-Proprietor, Murphy Electric. J. Olmstead-Proprietor, Automobile Clearance House.
No. 7, E.F.T.S.-Windsor Flying Training School Ltd., Windsor, Ont.
President-W. H. Cantelon-Vice-President and General Manager, Auto Specialties Manufacturing Company, Ltd.
Harry J. Mero-President and General Manager, Truseon Steel Co. of Canada, Limited.
J. Clark Keith-General Manager, Windsor Utilities Commission and Comptroller of Windsor Finance Commission.
C. W. Isaacs-President and Treasurer of Walker Insurance Agency Ltd.
Wiley W. Moxley-President and Manager, International Playing Card Company, Limited.
No. 8, E.F.T.S.-Vancouver Air Training Company Ltd., Vancouver, B.C.
President-Leslie J. Martin-Director of Home Oil Distributors Ltd.; Vice-President, Vancouver Oil Co.; President of Kiwanis Club; Chairman of the Board of Columbia Coast Mission; President of Aero Club of B.C.; Governor of Vancouver General Hospital; Director of Vancouver Symphony Society.
Major A. C. Taylor-Director of Home Oil Distributors Ltd.; Director of Vancouver Oil Co.; Director of B.C. Power Corporation; Director of B.C. Packers Ltd.; President of Bralorne Mines Ltd.; President of Bralco Co., Ltd.; Director of Boeing Aircraft of Canada; Director of Bank of Canada; on Advisory Board of Royal Trust Co.
W. G. MacKenzie-President, MacKenzie, White & Dunsmuir Limited, of Vancouver; President, B.C. Bridge & Dredging Co. Ltd.; President, Lemadu Co. Limited; President, Mt. Evelyn Mines Ltd.; President, Pacific 14873-121
Airways Limited; Vice-President, Western City Co. Ltd.; Vice-President, Vancouver Parts Co. Ltd.; Director, Aero Club of B.C.; Director, Pacific Coyle & Navigation Co. Ltd.; Director, Georgia Hotel Co. Ltd.; Director, British Aeroplane Engine Ltd., Montreal; Director, Canadian Wright Ltd. of Montreal; Sales Manager, North Western Dredging Co., Ltd.
W. B. Farris, K.C.-Barrister and Solicitor; President, Hedley Mascot Gold Mines.
Dr. W. K. Sproule-Dentist; Director of Aero Club of B.C.
No. 9, E.F.T.S.- St. Catharines Flying Training School Ltd., St. Catharines.
President-H. J. Carmichael-President, General Motors.
S/L. M. A. Seymour, K.C., Solicitor at Law.
Dr. H. G. Fox. M.A., LL.D., B.C.L.-Managing Director, Lightning Fastener Limited.
Major H. V. Gould, M.C.-Manager, Gould-Leslie Signs.
A. F. Fifield-President, American Hoe & Shovel Co.; Director, Welland Vale Co.
Leslie Drake-President, Welland Vale Co.
C. Bruce Hill-President, Engineering Tool & Machine Co.
Major E. H. Lancaster, K.C.-Solicitor at Law.
A. A. Schmon-President, Ontario Paper Company.
Captain W. B. Elliott, D.F.C.-Manager, Engineering Tool & Machine Co.
L. F. Snell-Owner and Manager Niagara Glass Company.
Laroche Hudson-Superintendent at General Motors, St. Catharines.
Manager-F. S. Pattison-Manager, Frank Murphy Limited (Garage, Buick Sales).
Secretary-A. E. Parsons, B. Com.-Accountant, Provincial Gas Co. Ltd.
No. 10, E.F.T.S.-Hamilton Flying Training School Ltd., Hamilton, Ont.
E.	M. Coles-Assistant to President, Canadian Westinghouse Co. Ltd.
J. M. Lounsbtiry-Secretary-treasurer, Louns-bury & Lounsbury, Limited.
N. W. Helwig-President, Morden, Helwig & Ferrie Ltd.
G.	AY. Wigle-President, Howell Lithographic Co. Ltd.
T. P. Pinkard-Sales Manager, United Gas & Fuel Limited.
S.	S. MacNaughton-President, Payne & Hardy Limited.
No. 11. E.F.T.S.-Quebec Airways (Training) Limited, Cap de la Madeleine, P.Q.
President-D. A. Clarice-President, Clarke Steamship Co. Ltd.
G. AV. Hutchins-Executor, Estate late James A. Richardson: \rice-President, Interprovineial Trading Corp. Ltd.; Chairman of the Board of Quebec Airways Ltd.
J. AV. Tacka.berry-Comptroller, Canadian Airways Limited.
Manager-M. de Blicquy-Manager, Quebec Airways Limited.
G. A. Thompson-General Manager, Canadian Airways Limited.
The Address-Mr. Power



Air observer schools as at November 15, 1940; name of the sponsor commercial company and designation
of operating company
School	Location	Sponsor commercial company	Designation of operating companyNo. 1,	A.O.S.-Malton, Ontario	Dominion Skyways, Limited	Dominion Skyways Training, Limited.No. 2,	A.O.S.-Edmonton, Alberta	Canadian Airways, Limited	Canadian Airways (Training), Limited.No. 3,	A.O.S.-Regina, Sask	Prairie Airways, Limited	Prairie Flying School, Limited.
The Address-Mr. Power
The Address-Mr. Power

The works contemplated on June 10 have all been completed, and we are in process of adding considerably to them. As a matter of fact the expenditures to which we are committed and which we are now undertaking, for the remainder of the fiscal year, will be almost double the 32 millions anticipated in June. It will amount to $62,167,645.22, made up of sites and improvements, contracts let through the Department of Transport, $20,512,328.68-that is, aerodrome sites other than buildings-and buildings and facilities, contracts entered into through the Department of Munitions and Supply, $41,655,316.54, making a total of $62,167,645.22. W e have also undertaken to expend on behalf of the home war establishment, as differentiated from the joint air training plan, $12,224,020, of which $1,200,000 will be expended in Newfoundland.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Will the minister explain
the difference? He said "as differentiated" from the regular training plan.


Charles Gavan Power: I will tell the hon. member
about it in a minute or two, so far as I can. We have undertaken to expend for the Royal Air Force on school facilities $20,000,000. This makes a grand total of $93,210,594 which has been expended or will be spent up to March 31, 1941 in the joint air training plan and for air defence facilities. I must warn the house that we shall have other heavy expenditures during the coming fiscal year.
Now, with respect to aircraft, I informed the house in June that under the agreement certain types of aircraft in certain numbers were to be supplied to the joint air training plan by the United Kingdom, some to be produced in Canada at United Kingdom expense, some to be produced in the United States at United Kingdom expense and some to be produced in Canada and the United States at the expense of the Canadian government. The house is I think familiar with the original financial set-up of something like $600,000,000 for the whole scheme, of which Britain was to pay in kind by way of production of aircraft and other accessories a certain amount, Australia a certain amount, New Zealand a certain amount, and Canada's share of the expenditure was to be $350,000,000.
I do not mind saying that both Canada's proportion and the aggregate amount will be greatly exceeded before we are through.
When the house prorogued the number of aircraft in use was comparatively small. We had a comparatively small number of schools in operation. As I said a moment ago, we now have sixteen elementary training schools, three observer schools, five service flying training schools, and within another month we will have eight. So that the requirements for aircraft have been enormously increased.
The aircraft we had in June consisted almost entirely of elementary trainers, of which we had a sufficient quantity and of which, I may say, we still have a sufficient, quantity. We are still able to procure all that are required. But other types, more advanced trainers, were required. Some difficulty was experienced in obtaining them, but I am happy to say that at the present time, with all the schools open which will be opened in the immediate future, we have adequate supplies of training aircraft, including advanced twin-engine, single-engine and elementary trainers. By next June we will require for the purposes of the plan three times as many aircraft as we have at the present time. Provisions have been made whereby, if the contractor does not fall down on the job, and if two or three other things do not happen, we will have the aircraft in June. I hope and pray that we will.
As I said at the opening of my observations, I could lay before the house a full statement of every type of aircraft and the number of each which will be required from now until the end of 1942. But I am advised that that is not the right thing to do.
I should like to make some observations concerning the pupils. As the house is well aware, the pupils coming under the plan come from all parts of the empire. Under the United Kingdom's share they come from Newfoundland and the Straits Settlements, and under our own share we have accepted British subjects from the Argentine. Then, they are coming from Australia and from New Zealand. From the experience we have had they have been proven to be the best material which could be found. Compared even with what we expected, the percentage of wastage or failure has been extremely low. The men from Australia and New Zealand, whom we have had with us for some little time, have shown themselves to be the very best material, and have given an example and served as a model for our own young men from Canada.
Fortunately the plan was organized so that we can produce at the same time as the organization is being built. That is, it works under a unit system. Some units may be in
The Address-Mr. Power

operation and producing at the same time as other units are being installed. Without betraying any secret I can say here that in 1941 and, counting in, if you like, the graduates in 1940, twice as many graduate pupils, pilots, gunners and observers will go overseas as was anticipated when the plan was brought into existence.
This is due to many factors. I must confess that it is not entirely to be placed to the credit of the administration in Canada. It is due to the transfer overseas of certain operational training; to the ability of our schools here to take in more pupils, both elementary and service flying training; to the rapid construction of facilities, schools and so on in Canada and, I believe, too, to the good work of administration by the officers of the Royal Canadian Air Force.
And now a word with regard to the British schools which have come here. I have not dealt in detail with the operation of those schools, but I now have permission to mention that they are established here. They are manned and equipped by the United Kingdom. The aerodromes were built and developed by the Canadian government at a cost of nearly $20,000,000 which is, of course, reimbursable to us. For purposes of administration they are attached to the commonwealth air training plan, and therefore for purposes of administration they are under the control of the Royal Canadian Air Force.
I should like to summarize this somewhat long and rambling discourse by saying that the commonwealth air training plan has now passed its half-way mark, that it is producing now and will continue to produce in ever-increasing quantities. Simply because we say that the plan is working and is in operation, it would be altogether unfair to suggest that we are not having difficulties every day of our lives, or that there are not all kinds of impediments and obstacles in the way. But when we give a report on the plan we must say what it looks like in the aggregate, whether it is to be successful or unsuccessful, whether it has or has not been accelerated.
I do not want hon. members or the people of Canada to feel that we are trying to feed them with soothing syrup when we say that the plan appears to be far more successful than was at first anticipated. We admit that during its course we have met with innumerable difficulties and obstacles, some of which have not been easy to overcome. I can now say that whereas the original plan was to reach its full operation, that is, to be complete and at its peak, in April of 1942, by September 
of 1941 all units and schools will be in full operation; and long before that we shall have reached at least three-quarters of the peak capacity of our air crew production.
May I say this further in connection with the air training plan generally? The hon. member who spoke immediately before me touched on the subject, and with that part of his speech I am in entire agreement. Perhaps it is not sufficiently realized by the people of Canada, as I believe it is by members of the government, that in this war and at this particular stage of the conflict Canada has an enormous responsibility to bear. It will be remembered that during the last war Great Britain had as allies Russia, Japan and Italy, and she had associated with her the United States and a host of other countries. To-day Great Britain stands alone, with the nations of the commonwealth. Among those nations of the commonwealth we are proud to boast that we are the foremost and most important.


Mr. MacNICOL:: The Greeks are doing a
turn too.


Charles Gavan Power: I am soriy I did not mention the Greeks. They are doing a wonderful work. Their resistance has been nothing short of a miracle. I know all hon. members hope and pray that that nation will be able to continue to carry on as it has for the past three weeks and repel what is probably the most cowardly assault which has been made during the course of a war remarkable for the cowardice of unwarranted attacks upon small nations.
Canada has a responsibility to bear. We are the senior partner in the commonwealth outside Great Britain. We are not, as was the case in the last war, simply making a contribution to the common pot; we are in the war as a partner. In the particular work with which I am associated for the moment it is patent to all the people of the world that eventual success cannot be won until we first achieve air equality and then gain such air supremacy as will permit us to take the offensive without which no war can be won. In this respect the Dominion of Canada has a far greater responsiblity than was ever dreamed of during the last conflict. We are the mainstay and right arm of Great Britain. In so far as the joint air training scheme is concerned we believe that we have reached the point where we can predict the success of the plan and the attainment of our common object. In order to do this, and I say this frankly without any hesitation at all, we need the help, the advice and the support of every hon. member of the house and of all the people of Canada. I do believe that we will receive it.

The Address-Mr. Gillis


Clarence Gillis: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with
a great deal of interest to the presentations of the different members, and particularly of the ministers who have addressed the house during this debate. I appreciate the difficulties of the ministers charged with the responsibility of the different departments connected with our war effort. The presentation of their reports to the house was a job in itself. I am afraid that throughout the country' they are not receiving the cooperation that they should. As a member representing a Nova Scotia constituency I am pleased to see on the other side of the house the former premier of Nova Scotia who is now Minister of National Defence for Naval Affairs (Mr. Macdonald). While I know we will disagree on many subjects during the time we are privileged to be here, I believe I am safe in saying that in the matter of seeking a solution for the problems of Nova Scotia we will have no trouble in getting together.
I should like to make a brief reference to two statements which were made in the house by the hon. member for Cochrane (Mr. Bradette) and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). I do not intend to take up the time of the house in discussing controversial matters that may not amount to very much, but I should like to direct attention to the fact that with the situation as it is, both in Europe and in this country, the two hon. members referred to, particularly the hon. member for Cochrane, characterized this group as communists, fascists and nazis. Later on, the Minister of Agriculture referred to the philosophy and programme of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation as being state socialism or the state supreme.
As a member of this group I want to make my position clear. I am as much opposed to state-ism as I am to any other "ism." I have absolutely no intention of accepting a dictatorship in any form. I want to make that clear. My conception of the programme and philosophy of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation is that they are the same as the programme and philosophy of the British Labour party. They conform in practically every detail with those of the present government of New Zealand. I do not think either the British Labour party or the government of New Zealand can be characterized as being communistic or fascist, or as adhering to any other form of "ism." I consider them as being forms of straight democratic government. They are carrying on the prose-;ution of this war in every way possible and with a vifew to utilizing the resources of the country in the interest of all people and on the basis of human needs.
If the opinions and ideals of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation can be put into operation in the future, I see Canada as being a country where the government would act merely as a board of administration. In my judgment the most important thing in any order of society is the people, and the people should control at all times. Any government that gets too far away from the people will find itself in hot water in a very short time. I make these remarks just in passing because the remarks of the hon. member and the minister have been carried in the press and now appear on Hansard. As a member of this group I do not want to be classified as being one advocating state-ism, the state supreme or the regimentation of our people. Nothing is further from my mind and nothing is further from the policy and the programme of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation as I understand them.
I listened with considerable interest to the different hon. members who have addressed the house. Without exception they all stress the necessity of winning the war, and rightly so. I was struck with the evident sincerity with which they placed their views before the house, but I would caution hon. members that the winning of the war and the preserving of democracy require something more than lip-service. As I understand it, democracy is not a theory, it is a practical working force that gives all people a voice in the management of the affairs of our country and the right to exercise in economic, political and sectarian fields the rights that are inherent in a democratic system. I feel, too, that in Canada we all should share and share alike, we should share that which is good or evil, enjoying the good things of life where we can and sacrificing where we must. I think the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) stated the case quite clearly when he referred to labour in his "Let's Face the Facts" broadcast on Labour day. I listened to that speech, and I read it. I think it sets out the cause of labour in a very clear manner. I should like to quote two paragraphs as follows:
In war, no work, no effort, can compare with the sacrifice of the soldier, the sailor and the airman. Their sacrifice is uppermost in the thoughts of this nation; it will live in its memories. But Canadians will remember, too, the debt they owe to labour. In Canada labour has extended its hours, surrendered its holidays and, in its determination to increase and advance production, has taught the young and the inexperienced the intricacies of complicated trades. It will be the duty of the people of Canada, realizing these things now, to remember them in the hour of victory.
My fellow citizens! A distinguished British journalist who recently visited us, said that he found Canada at war with Hitler and at
The Address-Mr. Gillis

peace with herself. We are at war, and we shall remain united in will and purpose. But we can only remain at peace with ourselves if shirking no effort, withholding no wealth, and sparing no sacrifice, we prove ourselves worthy of our two great brotherhoods-the brotherhood of the brave who fight for us, and the brotherhood of labour that works for their victory.	.
As my function in this house is primarily to speak for labour, I question, Mr. Speaker, whether we are proving ourselves worthy of these two great brotherhoods who fight and work for us. Conditions across the country as I have found them certainly cause one to doubt. In the province from which I come, and particularly in the eastern end of it, in Cape Breton island, there is slowly but surely developing among the people a complex that they are not considered a part of Canada. The war has had very little effect on unemployment there and hundreds of young men who have been unable to find employment are trying to get into the army. Petition after petition was read into the records of this house last session, demanding the opening-up of new mines in Nova Scotia. In one section at present there are 127 so-called aliens who have been driven out of employment, and they have 227 dependents. I looked into this question from all angles while the house was in recess, and I found that it was a question not of alienism but of unemployment, the last stand of desperate men to secure employment.
The relief that has been paid to these men is not adequate, and their children are not able to go to school. This question of alienism came up just after Italy entered the war, and while the house was in recess I made it my business to visit that particular colliery to look into this question. I met the miners who were forcing these so-called aliens-they are all Italians-out of that mine. I met the Italians themselves and had a long conference with them. I made it my business to interview the sergeant of the mounted police who had investigated the whole question thoroughly and has a very good grasp of the whole situation. I wanted to find out for myself whether it was really a question of alienism, if the miners were afraid to let these men come into the mines, or whether it was a question of unemployment. My considered opinion is that it is a question of unemployment, and I think 75 per cent of the men would tell you so. Here and there you would meet a man who would say that it was not safe to allow these Italians into the mines.
In that particular section the same thing was tried on two previous occasions. There are approximately 900 men employed in the

mine, and a percentage of them are Italians. But there are also in that section hundreds of young men who have never had a job, and the native miners resent the fact that so many foreigners are gainfully employed while their own young men are walking the streets. As I said before, the same thing was tried on two other occasions, but the union upset it. At the present time the union officials say they are helpless.
We all remember the hysteria that was caused when the Italians entered the war, and in Nova Scotia these Italians were pushed out of their employment. During the last few weeks the union officials made an effort to straighten matters out and have these men reemployed, giving them status as Canadian citizens because, as a matter of fact, they are practically all naturalized citizens of this country and members of the union as well, and the constitution provides that they should be employed until such time as charges are brought against them of having engaged in subversive activities. But there comes a time when men become unreasonable, and after this thing had dragged along for about three months, when the union officials endeavoured to get these men back into the mine the native miners said no. The situation there is tense, and a telegram I received this morning prompted me to raise the question with the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty). The minister says that his department is cognizant of the situation and that they are trying to find a solution. My considered opinion is that if an attempt is made at this time to force these men into the mine there are liable to be serious repercussions, something I should not like to see happen. The whole question needs to be carefully arbitrated. But at the bottom of it all, in my opinion, is the question of unemployment.
The miners' union is an organization that is very reasonable. It has carried on collective bargaining in that section for thirty years and has never had much difficulty in the past in signing contracts. But at the present time there is not a contract signed. They have been juggling for two years with the mine operators, trying to arrive at some agreement on the question of wages. That further accentuates the unrest among the miners. They develop a complex that they are not being recognized, that their union is no longer serving its purpose, and as a result discipline suffers. That is not a good situation, particularly in our present set-up. The union officials and the men who take a leading part in its organization are endeavouring to iron these matters out and are making little progress in the matter of signing the contracts.

The Address-Mr. Gillis
The people of Nova Scotia, the miners, the farmers and the fishermen-and I have been among them-are developing at the present time a complex of " what is the use?" They argue that nothing has been done, that no progress is being made, and unemployment in that section is much worse to-day than it was when the war broke out. Hundreds of young men are leaving school year after year and adding to the ranks of the unemployed. There has been no employment for them for years, and many of them have tried to get into the army but the units are filled up.
I find that Nova Scotia has gone backwards in the last fifty years industrially, and from the point of view of looking after their own needs. I have discussed this matter with men who have been familiar with the situation there for the past fifty years, and I have here a few statistics which, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to read into the record. Fifty years ago Nova Scotia had: The Merchants Bank; the Bank of Nova Scotia; the Halifax Banking Company; the Bank of Yarmouth; the Commercial Bank of Windsor; the Union Bank of Halifax; all organized, owned and directed by Nova Scotians who loaned money for the doing of Nova Scotia business.
Through mergers all these banks and their assets went west to Toronto; and to-day the money is loaned to Ontario industry. Nova Scotia lost its grip on its cash; and those who profited are living on coupon clipping-not on work-producing effort.
When steam supplanted sails, Nova Scotia had: A cotton mill at Halifax and one at Windsor; a paint works at Halifax; three tobacco factories; four or five shoe factories; two soap factories; several woollen mills (one at Mabou, C.B. won prizes at the Paris and Chicago World's Fairs) ; a big cheese factory at Antigonish, which won the prize at the Chicago World's Fair; a condensed milk factory at Truro; all merged out of Nova Scotia.
At Sydney, the home of the steel industry, which has been pap-fed from its birth to date, we have seen: A cement works drift into a merger; a fertilizer plant leave for Ontario; a local company organized to make small articles from steel be encouraged to spend a lot of capital, and then stymied by Ontario control.
We had Shaw and Mason build a foundry and employ a number of men to supply the steel company. Then a change of control that brought in an element connected with a similar foundry up north shifted the orders away and closed up the Shaw and Mason plant.
A big tar and chemical plant is gradually drifting to the upper provinces.
In every instance Cape Breton is being bled by capital and winked at by partisan politicians. The island is rich in pasture land and fodder hills for sheep. There is good grazing for cows and wonderful land for potatoes and small crops. Cape Breton can feed herself. Our fisheries are abundant, including lobsters, cod, herring, mackerel and swordfish, an asset hardly contemplated since the days of the French. Our people have been exploited. Cape Breton has wonderful gypsum deposits but does no manufacturing. We have great forests but no pulp or paper mills; the raw material is sold at mean prices and our timberlands are denuded. There are dozens of unworked coal seams on Boulardrie island, while Canada is importing coal. There is a rich coal field untouched at Port Morien, from the Hardwood Hill outcrops, which could contribute several million tons of good coal every year. Many of our best coal measures are proven on the Loch Lomond hill, 800 feet above sea level, which is able to contribute big coal outputs with free drainage and free ventilation, an ideal set-up for a profitable mining venture.
The answer to our problem in Nova Scotia, under our present order of society, is the creation in that section of the country of some of the war industries that are being established in Canada to-day. We have everything necessary for the manufacture of war material; coal, steel and iron ore. We are pleading for the government to recognize that section as part of the dominion.
The situation at the steel plant in Trenton, Nova Scotia, was such that on September 27, 1910, one of the responsible officials of district No. 26, the international board member, telegraphed the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) asking that the minister use his authority under Bill No. 43, now the National Resources Mobilization Act, to take possession of the properties of the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal company and its subsidiaries in that section. There are 500 men idle in the Eastern Car plants, and the international board member charged that the Trenton company was on a sit-down strike, that nothing was being done to relieve conditions of semistarvation existing there. He also made a direct accusation of sabotage on the part of that company. That statement was made by a responsible union official. I also received demands from the Thorbum area in Nova Scotia to petition the provincial government for the release of the areas on which the Dominion Steel and Coal corporation holds leases, in order that someone might be interested in undertaking some operations there.
The Address-Mr. Gillis

Conditions of that kind, it seems to me, are not in accordance with the pronouncement by the Prime Minister that we must recognize the value of labour in its relation to the war. I said that to make democracy work something more than lip-service was necessary. In travelling through the provinces of Nova Scotia, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick I find conditions among the common people anything but resembling those which should exist among a free and democratic people.
The matters with which I am endeavouring to deal this afternoon are not products of my own imagination. I receive letters, telegrams and resolutions, by virtue of the fact that over a period of years I have been actively engaged in the trade union movement. These organizations send these matters to me, and I am here merely endeavouring to act as spokesman for those who send me this information. From New Waterford in Cape Breton I received a resolution passed by the town council stating that there are over 350 unemployed men in that town, with no prospect of obtaining work in the coal mines or elsewhere in that district. The council finds it impossible to raise funds for contemplated local improvements which would furnish work for a large number of these men. The council has made every effort, without success, to secure work for these idle men in public and private projects in New Waterford and other places adjacent thereto. In a resolution which I understand has been forwarded to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston), they also make the accusation that work on the extensive public works programme in municipal district No. 20 was being distributed by petty politicians on a patronage basis in view of the forthcoming municipal elections.
In New Brunswick, where I visited the mining section of Minto, I found conditions at least fifty years behind the times. For a number of years the miners in that section have been endeavouring to exercise their industrial democracy by establishing a union and having it recognized for the purpose of collective bargaining, against the direct opposition of the operators and with very little cooperation on the part of the provincial government.
During the recess I had an opportunity of visiting some sections of Ontario, and I was particularly interested in the metal miners in the northern part of this province, with whom I discussed their problems. I find that conditions in northern Ontario resemble anything but democracy. In that area there are from forty to forty-five thousand miners who are endeavouring to form a union. The question [Mr. Gfllis.l
of silicosis was brought very sharply to my attention during my visit. As hon. members know, this is a disease prevalent not only among the metal miners of northern Ontario but also among the miners of Nova Scotia. Last session I discussed briefly with the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie), when an appropriation was being put through for research work in his department, the question whether it might not be possible to extend that work to take in this disease of silicosis. That appropriation was small, on account of the war, and the minister did not think there was a possibility of the work being extended, but he did suggest that Ontario had carried on a good deal of research work into this question and that this province had considerable data which might be of some value to us in Nova Scotia. I was glad to get that information, because I also had the opinion that Ontario was well advanced in the prevention and care of silicosis.
As I say, I discussed that matter with the miners in the north, but I found that Ontario was in pretty much the same condition as Nova Scotia. My information is that of some 2,200 persons who have applied for compensation under the Ontario regulation, only twenty-two have had their claims recognized, and I do not believe the facilities in this province for determining whether or not a man is afflicted with that disease are any better than those we have in Nova Scotia. If anything, I think perhaps we are a little ahead of Ontario.
There was brought to my attention one particular case which I think is characteristic of the general trend of the authorities in Ontario who are charged with this responsibility. A man by the name of Steve Kostanyk, who for some considerable time has been suffering from silicosis, has been endeavouring to prove his claim to the compensation board. To date he has been unsuccessful. I have here a copy of the will he made, signing over his body to his friend, a man named Nick Rozok, for the purpose of having an autopsy performed in order to prove that he died from this disease. The compensation laws provide that this disease is compensatable, but in all the years that Ontario has had to deal with this question the authorities have not been able to set up proper boards possessing the necessary facilities for determining whether or not a man is suffering from this disease. I think that is a crime and a shame, and it is merely one case I happened to run into.
We have had the same experience in Nova Scotia. A man named Andrews was afflicted

The Address-Mr. Gillis
for several years with this disease and just recently it was made compensatable in the province and brought under the act. He had not proved his claim. The matter was discussed by the board but owing to the fact that the trouble had existed prior to the passing of the act this man did not come under it. He died only a few weeks ago. The claim was being handled by the union when I left. An autopsy was performed on his body, and according to a press clipping from the Sydney Post-Record of November 3 it was definitely established after the autopsy that Andrews had died from silicosis. It would appear to me that matters of this kind, if they are not taken care of under the jurisdiction of the provincial authorities, whether this be due to lack of interest or to a want of knowledge on the part of the provinces, should come under the federal department of health. It should be the prerogative of the federal department to see to it that men who, owing to their occupation, are prone to diseases of this sort are safeguarded, and research work should be carried on. There are approximately 45,000 miners in northern Ontario and 12,000 in Nova Scotia. In neither of these provinces is there any competent authority who can say whether a man is or is not afflicted with this disease. According to the evidence he must die, and his body must be cut up, before it can be ascertained whether he had been suffering from the disease.


Mr. HOWDEN:: Is there any authority
who is competent to say, before death, whether a man is suffering from silicosis?


Clarence Gillis: I think there is.


John Power Howden: I doubt that very much.


Clarence Gillis: I had an experience myself. I remember a controversy that took place with the Department of Pensions and National Health during the time that the present Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) was in charge of that department. We had a dispute over a comrade in the legion who had a chest condition which was diagnosed in five different ways by five different medical authorities. We took him to a chest specialist who advised that he be sent to a sanatorium. Well, that cost a little bit of money. A drug was injected into the bronchial tree and the effect watched by an expert, and that also cost money. When the examination was made and the report written, the doctor-Doctor Sieniewicz of Halifax-definitely diagnosed the case as one of tuberculosis incurred at a certain time and aggravated by coal and stone dust. The department at that time accepted the report
and granted a pension. That man received proper treatment and is now alive and in better health.


John Power Howden: That was tuberculosis, not silicosis-a different thing.


Clarence Gillis: It was diagnosed as silicosis, pneumomycosis and other things by several different authorities. My hon. friend is a medical man; I am not, and I am not going to argue with him. I merely state this particular experience, and I suggest that if the same rule were followed by the compensation board and a proper test carried out when men apply for compensation, much of the misery and suffering which exist to-day would be avoided.
I do not elaborate on these matters for the purpose of hearing myself talk. It may be said that these are isolated cases, but they are not. As I have said, there are
12,000	miners in Nova Scotia and 45,000 in northern Ontario. These men all go down mines and are subject to the disease. They may contract it sooner or later; something that we regard as an isolated condition is a subject of discussion among the men in their unions, and it builds up an antagonism in their minds and the belief that the responsible authorities are not doing what they should do. It was that complex which helped, I believe, to trip up France and the other countries that fell to Hitler.


John Power Howden: Would my hon. friend not be inclined to admit that the compensation boards by and large are unbiased and are as anxious for the welfare of the workmen as for that of anyone else?


Clarence Gillis: I believe they are doing the best they can with the machinery at their disposal, but I submit that that machinery should be improved. I suggest that the department of industrial hygiene should carry on research work under the Department of Pensions and National Health. It would be a valuable contribution to the welfare of men employed in the mining industry.
I find that in the Kirkland Lake section, in addition to the problem I have been discussing, a local police force is being set up. In the Kirkland Lake section alone there are 250 men wearing the uniform of policemen and carrying revolvers and batons, and they are drilled by the local chief of police. No one knows what their function is, but I have heard it said among the men themselves, at a meeting I attended, that they bear a close resemblance to Hitler's storm troopers. No one knows exactly what their function is. The miners say that the uniforms are supplied by the local mining companies. During my
The Address-Mr. Gillis

time in a union I have had plenty of experience with company-owned police forces, and I submit that it does not make for democracy in any part of the country to have groups of this sort operating, being responsible to no one that we know of, and allowed to wear uniforms and to arm themselves, for what purpose we do not know. In my opinion, that also creates in the minds of the men in that section the feeling that democratic principles are not being observed so far as they are concerned. That complex is being built up there.
In addition to that, complaints come in by telegram and letter from the Chrysler plant to the effect that workers are not being treated democratically. When they endeavour to follow the principles of democracy the tactics of Hitler are employed by the corporation. When a strike vote was being taken recently in the plant, a number of police officers were stationed outside the union hall at the time the vote was to be taken, soldiers paraded through the plant on the day the vote was taken, and everything possible done to intimidate the men.


Norman Alexander McLarty: To be fair, the hon. member will admit that any soldiers who went through the plant did so in pursuance of a programme that had been laid out before the strike vote had been arranged, a programme that involved the inspection of various industrial plants and not this one alone.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: It was an unhappy coincidence.


Norman Alexander McLarty: The arrangement was made prior to any knowledge of any strike vote.


Clarence Gillis: I have no doubt the Minister of Labour is correct and I am not questioning what he says. I am, however, not stating my own opinion on these matters; I am simply taking the evidence as I find it. That is the feeling of the men at the Chrysler plant. It was quite a coincidence that on the day on which their vote was being taken, the troops were paraded through. In the opinion of the men everything was done to intimidate them; they felt that it was intimidation. Later on, twentv-four of them were arrested. Some were released, but a few days ago, according to press reports, forty-six more were arrested. If that is the use to which the Defence of Canada regulations are being put, it means that all effective trade union activity in plants engaged in war production will be stopped. If this is the policy of the government, the government must amend its orders so as to safeguard the democratic

rights of the workers to organize and carry on their trade union activities.
Only two months ago the two main organized labour congresses in this country held their annual conferences. The hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) is a member of one congress and attended its conference; I am a member of the other and was a delegate to it. Both congresses passed resolutions complaining of the treatment of labour in this war, of the fact that labour is not represented on any of the war boards with the exception of the labour supply council which, according to my information, is a dead letter in any event. Organized labour has expressed its readiness, indeed its eagerness to assist the country in the winning of the war in every possible way. The Prime Minister in the passage which I quoted has paid tribute to the workers of this country for their sacrifices. The workers have a right to expect that their needs and their rights will be safeguarded. Their sacrifices entitle them to an equal partnership in the affairs of this dominion, which they can get only through trade union organization and collective bargaining.
Here is what the Monetary Times has to say in an editorial in its issue of November 9, and I do not think the Monetary Times can be characterized as a socialist organ:
The employee, to put it briefly, must first be assured of receiving a square deal; after that government and public opinion may urge fresh sacrifices upon him with a clear conscience.
In all fairness it must be remembered that industry has already been offered fair treatment. No manufacturer has been expected to work on war contracts at a loss to himself. His profit has been assured. These points have been conceded him in advance without argument. The profit motive has been accepted as his proper criterion of when and how much he shall produce. Labour is also primarily in industry for profits and not for glory. Its claims, then, should not be summarily rejected as improper and out of place. No attitude more inimical to the cause of winning the war could be adopted by anyone.
I agree with that opinion. I say that the government should, without delay, implement the policies which are laid down in an order in council relating to labour relations. Of what value is a statement of principle when in practice the machinery of the state and war regulations are used to thwart labour organization and to arrest trade union members?
Complaints also reach us from General Motors in Oshawa that the plant has been placed under the protection of the defence of Canada regulations by a special order in council. It would appear that everything possible is being done for the protection of those exploiting industry for profit.

The Address-Mr. Chambers
It is not my intention in speaking about these things to belittle the efforts of the government. We realize the magnitude of their task in transforming this country from a peace-loving, non-military nation to an effective war-time machine. I fully realize the difficulties, but as one of the men in the street I also recognize the growing danger of allowing the Canadian people to get into the frame of mind that "we have not anything to fight for." At the moment, spokesmen of this country offer the people nothing but a return to the state of affairs which existed before the war. If we continue to do this, the people will not put forward their best war effort.
This generation has been afflicted with two major ware. Before and in between those two wars it has been further tormented by the most complicated economic disorders ever known; actual unemployment or the fear of it have oppressed the spirit of the people during the whole of my lifetime, and its attendant poisons have infected every class in society. No nation "has been immune. In short, the social machinery which men have built up since the beginning of the industrial revolution got out of hand and it came to be realized that the most urgent problem of the day was to bring society once more under control. Men therefore longed for order; for only order could bring security, and for security men have often been prepared to give up freedom. It is in this mood and against this background that fascism makes its fatal, seductive appeal. It says to the tortured soul of Europe, "Give up your freedom and in return we will give you security." We say, "Cling to your freedom." Back comes the question, "What of security?" Men love liberty, but to be free they must live. Old world conditions made the two incompatible. All fascism does is to make the divorce absolute.
We must assure the people of this country a future in which they can be both secure and free. We will fight for it and, if needs be, die for it, but it is not good enough to ask us to fight for the restoration of the old world. It was conditions such as I have attempted to describe that made possible the rise of Hitlerism in Germany and fascism in Italy, and which prepared the way in the countries which have fallen under the nazi heel.


Georges Parent: I regret to have to inform the hon. gentleman that his time has expired.


Clarence Gillis: I can finish in about a
minute.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Clarence Gillis: I am earnestly requesting
those in authority and entrusted with the future of this country to pay attention to the conditions that I have attempted to describe, because the right of the workers to organize, the enforcement of social legislation, the protection of civil liberty, freedom of discussion, are all things that are inherent in democracy. To talk about them is not good enough; they must be put to work as a practical demonstration to those whom we expect to produce the sinews of war and to fight the war.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. ALAN CHAMBERS (Nanaimo) (Translation) :: Mr. Speaker, now that I have the honour to be a very junior member of the Canadian Scottish Regiment I feel no diffidence in addressing this house in the French language. I do not need to remind the Frenchspeaking members of this house of the early history of the province of Quebec and of the part played in the development of their beautiful country by people with Scottish blood in their veins. While I was myself not born in Scotland, I am of Scottish descent and the son of a man who fought throughout the last great war in the garb in which I now stand.
During my few short years in Canadian public life I have developed a great respect, may I say an affection for my fellow members who speak the French tongue. Military circumstances will no doubt prevent me from speaking again at this session of parliament and I take this opportunity, therefore, of speaking to my friends through you, Mr. Speaker, poorly no doubt but sincerely, in their own tongue. No one, least of all a Canadian soldier, can gaze dispassionately on the present plight of France. There are some even in Canada who have felt that the French alliance was a misalliance. I am not one of those. I am one who believes in the Entente Cordiale because I have confidence in the French people.
May I take you back, for a few moments, into French history. To the time of the battle of Sedan in the Franco-Prussian war when, as lately, France succumbed before the Hun. Her armies were beaten and scattered and, after a bitter and desperate struggle, the Boche triumphed. But, when the struggle was over, the spirit of France was reborn. The flame in the hearts of a valiant nation was rekindled. The torch dimmed in that struggle burst out again into the flame of Verdun. Through the bitter years of tribute and German domination
The Address-Mr. Chambers

France gathered herself together for the coming fight and when it arrived the people of France conquered.
Let us now, therefore, when we gaze upon the agony of France at this time, remember not that they broke in Luxemburg; remember not that the Maginot line was turned; remember not the incident at Oran; but remember only that history will repeat itself as surely as we are here to-night and that the flame of Verdun will be rekindled when the assault begins.
There are those, too, who have forgotten that France was generous enough to give back the Saar. There are those who say that France should have been more generous. We who live with the oceans on our flanks can never truthfully be the judge of those who live with the enemy as their neighbours. If France has made mistakes let us forgive. Inevitably we, too, have made mistakes. But in the name of the hundreds of thousands of the flower of France who laid down their lives in the last war; in the name too of those scores of thousands of Canadians who lie beside them in the soil of France; let us remember France and let us have faith in the French people.
When I read every day of the deeds of our forces; when I hear from my friends and my relatives in the old land of the civilian defense of our mother country; when I realize from the magnificent figures given to us by those who are charged for the time being with the preparation of our Canadian forces for the assault; I look not backward to the defeat but forward to the struggle and to final victory. I have faith that we Shall conquer as we conquered before-shoulder to shoulder with the soldiers of France.
Mr. Speaker, the traveller who visits the ancient capital of the province of Quebec is told the famous legend relating to an inscription found in ruins of the old city. The inscription of the Golden Dog. The spirit of France, humiliated by German domination, can no doubt be compared to this inscription. When the determination to liberate France will replace the shock of defeat, the nation will arise against its conquerors in the manner predicted by this old inscription:
Je suis un chien qui ronge 1'os En le rongeant, je prends mon repos.
Un jour viendra qui n'est pas venu Ou je mordrai qui m'aura mordu.
(Text) Mr. Speaker, as one who since last addressing this chamber has changed in both appearance and status, I should like if I may for a few minutes this evening to discuss some matters of military moment, rather than those affairs which, were I not in the position in which I find myself, I would have discussed.

Yesterday I listened to the magnificent speech of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston), a speech delivered with restraint and full of explanations which hon. members had been seeking.
Since the house last met we on the coast of British Columbia had an opportunity of meeting the minister when he visited the coast. I should like to congratulate him not only upon his speech of yesterday but also upon the fine impression he made upon the people of the coast, and particularly those on Vancouver island. As a member serving in an active service unit I was one of those who in common with many others had to stand inspection. All of us were greatly impressed by the fact that no matter where the minister went, he always had a cheery word for everyone, and nothing was too much trouble for him to inquire into or endeavour to put right.
Also during the recess we had a visit from the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power). His was more in the nature of a flying visit. Then, wC were visited by the Minister of National Defence for Naval Affairs (Mr. Macdonald), who is now member for the constituency of Kingston City. We on the coast were particularly glad to note that the Royal Canadian Navy and its importance in Canadian military affairs generally have been recognized by the naming of a Minister of National Defence for Naval Affairs. Many of the people on the island are connected with the Royal Canadian Navy in one way or another, and after hearing and seeing the minister we were all glad that he had been appointed.
Some opinions on military affairs have been expressed in this debate, but I do not propose to comment upon the speeches delivered by other hon. members who are in uniform. Two of the hon. gentlemen who sit on this side of the house and who have spoken are men of much greater military experience than I. Perhaps the sole difference in point of view between them and myself is that I belong to an active service unit. We realize that there have been shortages, but these shortages have been overcome to a great extent by people being willing to put up with them cheerfully as it became necessary.
I should like to comment this evening, from the point of view of the active service force, upon several factors in the military situation. These are matters which I believe might well be discussed in this debate. First of all, there is the question of the training of what will, in the end, be the main fighting force. We have had some thirteen months of war and, as has been stated in the house, we have some 150,000 men in the Canadian

The Address-Mr. Chambers
active service force. During all this period training has been going on. At the outset I should like to say that we are not getting as thorough a training as we should be getting, but we are getting as thorough a training as can possibly be given to us under the circumstances.
I believe that some of these circumstances can be altered. As I said earlier, I have only a limited knowledge of military affairs, but I speak from personal experience and from what I have seen at close quarters. The great need at the present time in the active service force of Canada is that we should be given the benefit of the experience of those who have spent many years in the permanent force of Canada prior to the outbreak of the war. They were learning military ways and making themselves proficient. Many of these men went over with the first or the second division, and a number of them should be brought back to Canada and split up among the active service force battalions in order that the members of those battalions should receive the benefit, not only of what these men have learned during peace time but of what they have undoubtedly experienced in the constant hard training in Great Britain during the time they have been over there. I am not . in a position to know whether these things can be done, but if it is possible to arrange to transfer some of these men from the first and second divisions to active service force battalions in Canada, there is no doubt that in a considerably shorter time than has elapsed since the commencement of training of our active service force battalions they would be in a greater state of proficiency than they now are.
Many of the men in our active service force battalions have been in the army for six, eight or ten months. They are now facing another winter in Canada. Because of our climatic conditions it will be more difficult to train these men during the winter than it would be during the summer months. Now is the time when these instructors, as they might be called, or the more experienced members from the first and second divisions should be brought back to Canada in order to give us the benefit of their training. Those of us who followed developments in the French army from the time of the declaration of war until the attack on the lowlands know what happened because of continued inactivity. I do not want to give the impression that the troops on guard duty on the Pacific coast, such as the unit to which I belong, are inactive. We are anything but. On the other hand, there is monotony to be contended with. Many men who have friends and relatives
in the forces in England have learned many things; they probably know a great deal more than we do, but what we do know is that the monotony of guard duty which has been carried on for nine or ten months and which is likely to be carried on into the winter is not going to make our troops into better fighting men. There will have to be an infusion of new training blood.
Something has been said about the training of those young men mobilized under the national resources act. There has been some debate and discussion as to the length of the training period, and I want to echo what has been said by the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks). There is a training camp on Vancouver island and I can say that so far as the training of those men is concerned, it has been a job well done. I cannot say whether the proposal of a four months training period is a sound one. Personally I feel that a period of six or seven weeks would be more to the point. If men are to be trained for four months, it will mean that much of the work which they receive in the early days of the training period will have to be repeated. It may be that you will take the edge off their training and they will probably not be left with a desire to continue their training, as now seems to be the case.
While speaking of training, I should like to point out something of which I am sure the minister is aware. Because of climatic conditions, British Columbia is much more favourable for winter training than certain other parts of Canada. I think this fact should be given consideration by the minister.
Equipment and training going hand in hand as they do, if we cannot have all the equipment we want right off the bat-and one can very easily understand that these things cannot be done overnight-we feel at least that if there were a wider distribution of training equipment among the Canadian active service force units, if that equipment were moved around more than it is at the present time, it would be more beneficial. I do not want to go into a discussion of the training equipment we have on hand or that we have had in our unit, but certainly I should like to see a little more training equipment than we have seen so far, and we hope that it will not be long before we shall do so.
In the minds of a great many of the men serving in the army at the present time there is one unanswered question and that is, how far do the higher military officers in the Canadian forces recognize the difference between conditions in 1914 and in 1940 under which modern land fighting goes on. I put that only as a question. I do not suggest
The Address-Mr. Chambers

that the higher military officers are not apprised of that difference or that they have not a complete idea of exactly what they propose to do and how they are going to do it. But there is in the minds of many of our soldiers that unanswered question, and we are waiting to know what the answer is.
May I say a few words about the soldiers themselves? One thing which has struck me about the present day Canadian active service force soldier is what happened the other day in our own unit, where we have had the ordinary wet canteen right along. We put up a dry canteen and a remarkable thing happened. In about a week's time the wet canteen was doing practically no business at all and the dry canteen was doing it all. That is a change from the last war. I do not know that the example was set by any one of us personally, but nevertheless that is what happened.
It would seem to me from what I know of the men-and the first thing one has to do is to try to get to know the men-is that first of all they know why they are fighting. They are all in the army with a determination. They have a great many suggestions to make, and they make them and we hear them. There is nothing of the automaton either in their actions or in their thinking which heretofore I understand has been a sine qua non of military life. These men have left their homes with a clear idea of why they are fighting and a desire to get on with the job.
I understand that the minister is going to England very soon where no doubt discussions will take place as to the immediate role Canada is to play in the next few months. At some risk of being misunderstood, I would suggest to the minister and the government that he give our men back here at home in the Canadian active service force ranks some hope that they may be led out to do something other than the monotonous tasks they have to perform at the present time. When we see the magnificent defence being put up by England, when we realize that women and children are being killed there and soldiers are not, it makes us feel-I do not know whether I can express it exactly-that we would like to be led out, away from our present humdrum duties, to the job that we joined up to do. But these things are in the hands of those much better informed than I am and in whom I have full faith. You cannot, however, keep young Canadians who have joined to fight, constantly training and training and training and not bring them into action.
The question of war aims has been raised from time to time. I do not know, of course,

what any official statement of our war aims might be, but I think I know from the brief experience I have had with our troops what their war aims are, if one might use that phrase. They want to get a certain job done as rapidly as possible and get back to normal life. They want to know that while they are doing their job, their homes are protected and their families looked after. They want to know, too, that when they come back from that war, if they do come back, there will be as good or a better standard of living for the great masses of the people of Canada.
We understand that the government at the present time has a committee of experts working on post-war plans. I know that suggestions of value have been made to the Department of National Defence in this very regard. It may seem futile to talk now about demobilization, but, Mr. Speaker, you can lay the groundwork for an efficient and speedy demobilization if you do it during war time. One suggestion, for example, that was recently made to the department I should like to see adopted if it can properly be done, and that is that we should have in one compact dossier the civilian labour record of the soldier before he joined up, a record of the training he has taken in his military capacity and its bearing upon future employment, so that when the time comes for that man to be demobilized, the labour exchanges, which I have no doubt will be set up under the unemployment insurance measure, will be furnished with that information, and in particular the office for the district from which the man comes, so that while a job is being sought for him, he can be maintained in the army. That is only a very general suggestion, but I mention it because that information should be assembled now. It is no good setting up boards and commissions to assemble it just when we are going to demobilize our army.
Another matter about which the soldier-I am speaking of the private soldier, is worrying to a certain extent, is the question of insurance. I believe last session the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) brought forward a suggestion in this regard, and I should like to endorse that proposal. I think at this time the government might approach the leading life insurance companies in Canada and ask them as a group, after conferring together, to present to the government, if they feel able to do so, a three-way scheme under which the government might pay a part, the man pay a .part, and the insurance companies take a cut in their rates, thus putting into operation life insurance policies

The Address-Mrs. Nielsen
on behalf of all men serving in the active service forces of this dominion. I do not think that should be impossible.
At the present time, if a soldier wants to insure himself against death overseas, he can do so only by taking out an ordinary insurance policy on which he must pay a very high extra premium per $1,000, I believe somewhere in the neighbourhood of $80. The government might say to these insurance companies, "We would be prepared to open negotiations on the basis of 200,000 men. What rate could you strike lower than that extra $80?" If the premium could be brought down to a more reasonable figure and the difference between the ordinary premium and the coverage for overseas death split between the man and the government, then the scheme might be brought into operation as a voluntary one open to any soldier, any member of the air force or any naval man. I do not know whether that is feasible; I have not had time to look into it, but for what it is worth I offer this suggestion to the government.
Speaking still of the troops themselves, I should like to refer to another question which already has been touched upon, namely, the question of leave and transportation. May I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, in this way; Imagine 300 men on a little neck of land, right on an ocean, fifty miles from the nearest settlement, in a district where it rains all the time. I see the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) giving me a side glance when I say it rains all the time, but in this instance it does. Imagine these men serving night after night, standing guard duty from dusk until dawn, in very heavy rain. Can you imagine how they would look forward to leave, particularly at Christmas time, which leave I now understand has been granted? Then how much more would they look forward to it if, as a Christmas gesture, although perhaps it seems strange to speak of peace and good will in these days, the government gave them transportation to their homes.
Before I finish dealing with this part of my remarks there is perhaps one other group I,might mention. Before this war broke out, a great many of our young men on Vancouver island, who were not at that time being recruited by the Royal Canadian Air Force or the Royal Canadian Navy, left Canada and joined the Royal Air Force or the Royal Navy in England. We have quite a considerable number of young men, Canadian born and bred, serving and fighting in Britain at the present time, who are not actually members of the Canadian services overseas. I believe these young men are not paid as
much for their services as we pay our soldiers, but what I am going to mention comes perhaps a little closer home to the average fighting man. These men of whom I speak do 'not enjoy the privilege of having cigarettes sent to them duty-free, as is the case with Canadians in the active forces. I understand this matter is now receiving consideration on the part of the government. It may not seem extremely important, and perhaps I should not take time to mention it, but it really is important to a large number of young Canadians in England to-day.
I see that my time is very nearly gone. Before sitting down, I wanted, if possible, to tell the house something of the difference in outlook that occurs when one joins the forces. Our spiritual leaders have told us-and I remember an address in the same vein by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King)- that the fight in which we are now engaged is one, to use the words of St. Paul, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Certainly, when one considers the paganism and complete materialism of those forces against which we are struggling, one agrees that in a sense, as the Prime Minister said, the fight is a crusade. I believe, as Cromwell did when he built his new army, that if we have that spiritual confidence, as we have, and combine with it the most modern equipment and the best possible training, there can be no question as to the result. If I had the words I should like to convey to the house something of what that means to the forces. Perhaps I might express that in the words of Rupert Brooke, who said:
Blow, bugles, blow! They brought us, for our dearth,
Holiness, lacked so long, and love, and pain.
Honour has come back, as a king, to earth,
And paid his subjects with a royal wage;
And nobleness walks in our ways again;
And we have come into our heritage.
Mrs. DORISE W. NIELSEN (North Bat-tleford): Mr. Speaker, in looking over the material I thought I might need in speaking this evening, at first I found it a little difficult to decide just which things were of the greatest importance and should be mentioned in the time I have at my disposal. The other evening I listened to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) speak about the problems of agriculture. I listened to him outline what has been done. I also listened to the compliments paid by the Minister of Agriculture to himself. Yet I fail to see what this government is going to do about the wheat situation, especially in Saskatchewan, and it is possible that I should devote some of my time this evening to a discussion of that problem.
The Address-Mrs. Nielsen

With regard to our war effort, it is necessary that this government should take a decided step towards safeguarding the health of our people through the coming years, because every one will agree, I believe, that after the years of suffering which a great number of our people have had to endure, through lack of medical services, through malnutrition and undernourishment, we are going to see a serious loss in working hours if our people do not have some help in that direction on a national scale. Some system of health insurance should be attempted at this time.
There is, however, one subject which is at this time more relevant than any other to the conditions that prevail in Canada, and to this subject I shall give my attention. I refer to the question of democracy itself. We are told that faith without works is of no avail and we also know that ideals, unless they are put into practice, are valueless. Democracy is a way of living, not just an ideal, and so I wish this evening for a while to consider the case for Canadian democracy.
I have listened in this house at various times to tributes that have been paid to the French-speaking people of this nation, tributes in which I have been very much pleased to associate myself, because I know what a great contribution they have made to Canada in the past and I am sure they will make a similar contribution to the history of this country in the future. The other evening I was happy indeed to hear the Minister of Agriculture compliment the English people, particularly since, although Canada is the land of my adoption, England is the land of my birth; and I was more than happy to hear him pay a tribute to the people of London, my old home town. It is in my opinion one of the greatest triumphs of the English people that throughout these last months of terror, throughout this greatest emergency of all times, they have been able to make secure to themselves democracy in England; for no one will deny to-day that the English people have retained the rights and privileges of a democratic people. That has been perhaps their greatest triumph.
It has been said in this house that the first line of our defence is in Britain. I do not remember just which members have said that, but I believe the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) said the same thing only the other day. When I am speaking of the defence of democracy I am inclined to disagree with that opinion, because wherever democracy exists it must be protected and guarded right there. In my opinion the first line of defence of democracy in Canada is here and is now. There is no use in our leaving the first line

of defence to the people of Britain when we are thinking of our democracy; the first line of defence of Canadian democracy must be here in Canada.
Democracy in this country has been built up on the ideals of the two great peoples who constitute our nation, the French and English speaking people. It was, I believe, the great Frenchman Voltaire to whom this remark was attributed: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That is in essence the very cornerstone of democracy. It is the freedom of speech which is the inherent right of all peoples living in a democratic country.
Besides freedom of speech there is freedom of the press and of assembly; there is the right of every man to be thought innocent until he is proved guilty by a jury of his peers; there is also the right of labour to organize and peacefully to bargain. These various rights have always been acknowledged to be the very bulwark and foundation upon which democracy is built. It is true that we who have watched the growth of fascism in Europe have seen these very things attacked, one after another, by the forces of reaction which have attempted to defeat, and have so successfully defeated, democracy abroad. In Germany and Italy we have seen freedom of speech, freedom of the press and of assembly, the right of working people to organize, all gradually taken away from the people by the powers of dictatorship. Unfortunately, when we come to consider, we find that under the defence of Canada regulations, which we are told are for the protection of the Canadian people against the activities of enemy aliens, certain rights and privileges of people in a democratic nation are also liable to be taken away.
We are at war, and I know it is perfectly necessary in a time of war to do certain things. No one would deny that in a time of war we have to protect lines of transportation and our coast-lines from the activities of enemy aliens. But to anyone who has studied the defence of Canada regulations-and I wish very much that more of our Canadian people would study them-it becomes increasingly clear that although some of our regulation's are decidedly to protect Canadian people from the activities of enemy aliens, there are in the regulations other clauses that are more calculated to defend, from the just criticism of its own people, a government which during the last session took to itself almost dictatorial powers.
It has sometimes been asked; why is it that here in Canada we have not the same freedom of speech which the British people

The Address-Mrs. Nielsen
have still kept to themselves? The reply has been that here in Canada we cannot allow the same freedom of speech because we have certain minority groups. It is true that in this dominion we have people of many nationalities, people who have come from various countries in Europe. They have made a contribution to Canada; they have made a contribution to our living standards, to our thought and culture; and having made that contribution, a contribution of which they may justly be proud, they should be given the full privileges of Canadian citizenship.
To-day we are not allowed freedom of speech because there are certain minority groups in this country, and in my opinion that is an unjust and unfair way of dealing with these people. Many of them have come from countries in Europe where freedom never existed or where dictatorship has gradually taken over and democracy is dead. Many of these so-called foreign speaking peoples are more aware than Canadian-born people of the insidious approach which reaction and dictatorship will make towards the bulwarks and fundamentals of democracy. Many of these people would perhaps warn Canadians of the insidious approach towards the destruction of democracy. I wonder whether it is for that reason that we have lost some-I should say nearly all-of our freedom of speech in this country.
It is also true that in this country a large number of arrests have been made recently under the defence of Canada regulations. This is creating in the minds of Canadian people a great fear as to where our own democracy is bound. I think the majority of hon. members are conversant with the magazine called Saturday Night. In its issue of November 9, Mr. B. K. Sandwell, its editor, has an article which he heads "The Growing Sense of Insecurity. Mr. Sandwell is a man whose conservative opinions and fine sense of values have won him a position of regard in this country. He says:
I doubt whether the government is fully aware of the grave sense of insecurity which is developing among the less influential classes of this country as a result of the workings of the defence of Canada regulations. . . . Canadians have been altogether too lacking in appreciation of the value of the courts and of the prerogative writs as safeguards against arbitrary action, but the present state of affairs is waking them up. Justice, it is true, is never perfect, and liberty can never be absolutely guaranteed to everybody; but the difference between the state of affairs which ordinarily exists in a British country as a result of the ability of the individual to bring his case before an impartial tribunal, and the state of affairs which exists when he is deprived of that ability, is beginning to be appreciated.
According to Mr. SandwelFs report, about 1,500 people have been interned since the defence of Canada regulations came into effect. There are some things I should like to say about the way in which these regulations have been used and the way in which our people are placed in internment eamips. Mr. Sandwell in this article has expressed it perhaps far better than I myself could do, so I wish to continue to quote from his article. He says:
The issue of an internment order which effectually deprives the internee of his liberty even though the confinement to which he is subjected may not be regarded as a punishment, involves no court proceedings, no notice to the person interned, no pleadings of any kind, and no publicity. The police, armed with the order, which has been issued without the knowledge of the person against whom it is directed, simply call for him and take him away. It is often impossible for his family to find out where he is for a considerable time. His neighbours and the press are not encouraged to be inquisitive about him. It has not yet been possible to procure a writ of habeas corpus against the officials who have him in their charge.
Possibly other hon. members have at different times received letters regarding people who have been interned under the defence of Canada regulations. I do not wish to mention many of these cases. One name which I think has received quite an amount of publicity is that of Sullivan, one of the secretaries of the seamen's union; another is a man named Chapman, another named Charles Murray, all union members and working presumably in the interests of the ordinary people. These men have been arrested along with some 1,500 others, according to Mr. Sandwell, under the defence of Canada regulations. I do not know with what these men are charged; I have no more idea than any other person reading of these things of just what the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) has decided these men are guilty. But the counsel who has been called in for their defence states that these men have been told that representations have been made that they are communists. That may be true; I have no idea whether it is or not. What I wish to ask at this point is, if there are 1,500 people arrested in Canada under these defence of Canada regulations, have they been told what their offence is? They are held in internment camps without trial. If we are to have democracy in practice and not just as an ideal, any man or woman living under British justice should have the right to know what he or she is charged with and to have a trial by jury. If it can be proved that they are members of an illegal organization, all right, let the jury convict them.
The Address-Mrs. Nielsen

But so far as we know, people to-day are being interned in Canada with no right to a hearing and trial before a court and jury.
There is one thing which I believe is left to them; they have the right to appeal to a reviewing committee. Mr. Sandwell in the same article says with regard to these reviewing committees:
There are only two reviewing committees in all Canada, each of them consisting of one person, an English-speaking person being one committee, and a French-speaking person being the other committee. This is not nearly enough to ensure prompt disposal of all the cases demanding review; and a person detained in error or upon insufficient grounds is entitled to prompt disposal of his claim that he is thus detained.
And here is a point which should be impressed upon everyone:
And further-these committees are themselves the sole judge of the amount of information which shall be communicated to the interned person concerning the charge against him; and the amount of information which they are so communicating in some cases is so infinitesimally small as to make defence literally impossible. In one case-
And I believe Mr. Sandwell is referring here to the case of Pat Sullivan.

no more definite particulars of the grounds of detention have been obtainable, despite repeated and formal applications by counsel than that "representations have been made that you are a member of the communist party." All that the detained person can possibly do in answer to these "particulars" is to deny that he is a member. He cannot attack the credibility of the witnesses who made the "representations", for he does not know who they are. He cannot offer any alternative explanation of the acts or events which led to the representations, for he does not know what they are. No court would regard this as an adequate statement of particulars for a moment; but no court has any standing in the matter.
It has always been considered the right of a subject under British democratic rule to be considered innocent until he is proved by trial to be guilty. I feel that in allowing the defence of Canada regulations to be enforced in this manner we are allowing one of the fundamentals of democracy itself to be negated. It matters not to me what these men are or who they are, the fact remains that they are British subjects, and as such they should have the protection of the law which democracy and our British justice have always accorded to us. In this connection I should like to quote also from a man who cannot in any sense of the word be called a defender of the communists. This is Colonel Drew, the leader of the Conservative party in the Ontario provincial legislature. Recently Colonel Drew was speaking before the Electric club at its luncheon in the Royal

York hotel. On that occasion he spoke in defence of democracy, as I am attempting to do at this time. He also mentioned the fact that under the defence of Canada regulations we people are losing some of the essentials and fundamentals which, if once lost, we do not know can ever be regained. Colonel Drew says:
If we are prepared to shed our blood to preserve democracy, we should try to make it work under stress of war.
He goes on to say:
Nobody can accuse me of being a communist sympathizer or enthusiastic about the C.I.O. But the test of a democracy is not whether the people we like are to be protected, but whether the principles of democracy, including public trial, are to be extended to the very limits.
Then he says this:
All these acts are done under order in council, under dictates. Two weeks ago another order in council was passed saying that any article may be destroyed or retained by a justice of the peace at the discretion of the attorney general, whether a person is accused or not. It is said this referred to bombs. But do we need a law to throw a bomb into a lake? It could refer to books and records and documents. It could take from a man, accused or not, the means by which he could defend himself. This is shocking. It offends every principle of British jurisprudence, and it is time we expressed ourselves about regulations of this kind. It is an 800-year old issue, and the question of the right to discuss it is even older.
Also during these last few months we have found that under the defence of Canada regulations certain people have been arrested merely because they have in their possession literature of a certain kind. Yet freedom of the press is another fundamental of democracy. I know many of us have deplored the burning of books in Germany, and we have said that the German people are going back into the dark ages, when they are no longer allowed freedom to read for themselves and form their own opinions.
It is true that we in Canada have not yet reached the stage where we burn books. But we have already come to the point where under the defence of Canada regulations people have been arrested because they have had in their possession certain literature. Recently in British Columbia a bookstore keeper was arrested under the defence of Canada regulations for having books in his bookstore. I cannot help feeling that any intelligent person in Canada must realize that to form an opinion a person must have access to these various ideologies; he must have access to various schools of thought, because it is only by comparison and by contrast that an intelligent person can come to any decision as to what he himself believes. Yet to-day in Canada, under the defence of

The Address-Mrs. Nielsen
Canada regulations, we are having this certain right severely narrowed and limited. This is one other matter which I feel offers a distinct menace to democracy in Canada.
While I am speaking about literature, I should like to mention something else which is perhaps more of a personal nature, but which I feel is something with which every hon. member should be vitally concerned. During the recess reports were brought to me, in my constituency, that the provincial police were going round the country looking for a certain little leaflet I had had printed. It would have been an easy thing for the police, who know me fairly well-I believe I am known to most people in that part of Canada-to come to me and ask for one of those leaflets. I would have given it to them with the greatest pleasure, because it was nothing but an open letter to the Canadian people giving in condensed form what I had said in the debate on the budget. Instead, however, of asking me for a copy, the police travelled miles and miles through the north country, visiting house after house asking for leaflets, and stirring up in the minds of the people fear and apprehension as to what the leaflets contained, and the danger they presented. This is just one example of how the police are operating to-day under the defence of Canada regulations. It is an example of the way in which they are causing fear among our people.
I took great exception to that procedure. On the other hand I saw no reason for undue alarm because, as I have said, the leaflet contained only a condensed version of the speech I had made in the session. I took no action in the matter whatever. It is quite likely that numbers of people, in deference to the wishes of the police, turned in their copies.
I remember that on the first occasion of my speaking in the house I said I would devote my energies and my time, and speak in the interests and on behalf of the life of the Canadian people. I have consistently spoken and written both in and out of this house in the interests of the underprivileged, the inarticulate and the non-influential among our people, and I shall continue to do so. I find that there are others who have said some of the things I have said. I notice that those in charge of the Toronto community chest campaign have published a little leaflet headed with the word " fight." In it they say the same things I have said repeatedly, namely, that we must fight poverty and that we must fight against subversive influences in Canada; that we must fight malnutrition, intolerance, delinquency, distress, despair, unrest, and so on. I note that the governor
general of Canada has said, in connection with the community chests drive, that at this time when our thoughts are on the battlegrounds of Britain we must not forget the righteous claims of our fellow citizens in Canada.
In essence that is what I have always maintained. That is what I have always said to the people in Canada. I find that a little pamphlet like that published by the campaign headquarters is allowed free circulation in Canada. No policeman seeks to blot it out. Why? Because we find that this pamphlet asks for charity. I have never asked for charity for the people of Canada, because I say that is not the solution of their problems.
I have in my hand a pamphlet printed by a newspaper and headed "Democracy must live." It contains a number of the speeches I made in the House of Commons, and also the open letter to the people of Canada, which is nothing but a condensed version of the speech I made in the budget debate. In that speech I did not ask for charity. I said:
We must demand that no person or corporation or institution makes any profit from this war. We must demand that those with great wealth pay the cost of the war and not we who now can only just manage to live.
There is the difference between this pamphlet and the other one. Yet I am informed that the police have been to the offices of the newspaper company which published this pamphlet. I am informed that they have taken the galley-proof and the available copies, and that men in various cities of Canada who have been selling this little pamphlet have been arrested.


An hon. MEMBER:: Shame.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: I do not speak as an
individual. I speak, as do other hon. members, as an elected representative of the people. If democracy is going to live in Canada, then the other members of the House of Commons have the right with me to ask why the voice of one member of the house should be stilled. It becomes increasingly evident that under the defence of Canada regulations anyone may be accused of being subversive if he speaks or acts against the powers that be in this country. If he says anything against the power of finance or against the power of big business, he may be called subversive under the defence of Canada regulations. In Germany, if it were found necessary to discredit anyone or attempt to make everyone take notice, the cry of "Jew, Jew," was raised. In Canada, if certain people feel that they want to discredit anyone, they do not raise the cry of "Jew," they
The Address-Mrs. Nielsen

raise the cry of "red, red." Jew-baiting in Germany, red-baiting in Canada! These are the things I want to bring to the attention of this house. If we have democracy in this country, these conditions must no longer exist.
As I said before, although Canada is the land of my adoption, England is the land of my birth. I have no fear of these things. It matters not to me what I am called. If I am called "red", that does not affect me. Only one thing which would perhaps break my heart is if in this effort to preserve democracy the common people of this country ever had occasion to label me "yellow".
Some of the trade union leaders have also been labeled "red". I do not know whether they are, but if we have any democracy at all we should safeguard the citizens of this country from things of this kind. They should be given a chance in our courts to be proved guilty or to be exonerated from these charges. I was not in the house at the time it was delivered, but I read a speech which the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) made on September 8, 1939. He made some wonderful statements, and I should like to quote him as follows:
I care not who the individual may be, how respectable in his own eyes or in the eyes of others lie may appear, or what position he may hold; if he seeks to profiteer in this crisis he belongs to the underworld and should be treated as one of those who menace all that is sacred in human relations.
If a man seeks to profit in this crisis, he belongs to the underworld, according to the Prime Minister. There are many people who have been interned because they have worked in the interests of the common people of Canada. Yet we have to-day as members of an advisory committee to this government a number of leading industrialists, men who are bound up with the great financial institutions, industries and big business monopolies. They are members of a committee advising the government on its war effort. Through the corporations which they represent these men are making unprecedented profits out of war contracts. Remembering the words of the Prime Minister, I believe it is also well to remember that this government has as members of an advisory committee men who, according to the words of the Prime Minister, belong to the underworld.
There are no provisions in the defence of Canada regulations to take care of such subversive activities. We should not forget the fate of France. There were those who were guilty of the downfall of that country, those who stole her democracy and relinquished it to the dictators, those who imprisoned thousands of French citizens in

internment camps and prisons, those who set loose the really guilty ones. I think there is considerable need for the Canadian people to see a parallel of these conditions within our own boundaries.
This evening I want to pay a tribute. Many tributes have been paid in this house to the armed forces, and I have joined in those tributes. But I want to pay a tribute to another army, that army of men and women who are without uniforms, who are without ammunition, who have nothing but the courage of their convictions. They have only the ideals of democracy to which they cling, but they are standing in the front line of the defence of democracy here in Canada. These people are to be found in various walks of life; they hold various political opinions and have various creeds. I hope I may be privileged to stand beside those who are standing in the front line in the defence of democracy. These people have done much to help to keep alive the structure and spirit of democracy, as well as the practice of democracy, which matters more than anything else. In closing I should like to quote a few words from the Globe and Mail of October 12, because I believe that in these words is a truth which every Canadian should realize. They are:
It is the unpopular people who are the first victims of any gestapo. The turn of the more reputable citizens comes next, when, after having acquiesced in injustices being done to people they dislike, they find that their own shield against injustice has been destroyed.
I know there are many to-day who feel that those in internment camps are just communists or agitators. They may be, but as Canadian citizens they have the right to a trial and British justice. If we as Canadians are willing to let them suffer without having justice, who knows how many of us will suffer in the same way in the future? It is not only that we have to stand to-day in defence of what democracy remains to us; the Canadian people must gather their forces, and all those who believe in and are willing to defend democracy must attack the powers of reaction which are stealing the very bulwarks of our democracy from us. They must go after the democracy which has been taken away from us. There must be freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and the right to a just trial. Through these years there have been people who have been willing to defend and fight for democracy. If they are willing to give their lives for democracy, then I feel convinced that democracy will never die in Canada.


Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak at this stage of the debate in support of the amendment, I do

The Address-Mr. Perley
so because it provides me with the first opportunity of making a few suggestions to the government and drawing to their attention a matter apart from the war but one which is of urgent importance in western Canada. I think we are all agreed, and it is not necessary to restate it, that Canada's part in this war should be a united one. The day has arrived when petty differences should be set aside. This matter should be looked at from a national viewpoint. I think we all realize that Canada's war effort should be a one hundred per cent effort. May I say here that any achievements or speeding up of our war effort during recent months, such as we have heard of from four members of the government, should not blind us to the fact that our front line is in Britain; or as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) put it, our front line is in the English channel, on the coast-line or wherever Britain desires to lead us in this struggle.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), in his statement to the house the other day, gave us his reason for calling parliament together at this time. He said it was for the purpose of giving to the members first-hand information respecting Canada's war effort and an opportunity to make inquiries after we had heard the statements of the government. I think the Prime Minister realized that the press and the public generally were becoming a little restive and wanted to know. Through parliament we are going to let the public know, and after we have had the full story from the government the opposition will be in a position to decide exactly what we should do. I think it is generally agreed that as an opposition we have the right to make constructive criticisms. I think it is also agreed that we cooperated fully with the government during the 1939 session, and we shall cooperate now if the government shows its desire to have our cooperation by giving parliament all the information it should have.
May I say to the private members supporting the government that they have just as much responsibility as we in the opposition have to see that the government gives parliament the facts, and wherever possible to give the government support in its war effort. We should, however, have first heard from all the ministers, instead of having all this in-between stuff. We should have been given a clear-cut statement of what Britain has asked of Canada. Who knows yet what Britain has asked of Canada? What did Britain ask of us in September, 1939? What did they ask Canada to do in July, 1940? What are they asking Canada to do to-day in the matter of men. armaments, munitions and food? When 14873-13
we have received a clear-cut statement of what Britain is asking us to do, we shall be in a position to judge whether Canada's war effort is the very best of which Canada is capable.
The Prime Minister, in his address to the house the other day, quoted statements that had been made to the British house thanking Canada. That was quite all right. But still we do not know what Britain has asked Canada for. We do not know what they desire as our maximum effort, so to speak, and I think we should be told.
The Prime Minister also mentioned the cost of the war. I do not think this is the stage to go into that because there will be an opportunity to discuss the cost on the budget. To illustrate the seriousness of the war and the great responsibility of the government, the Prime Minister related that at a cabinet meeting one day the government passed war contracts to the amount of $200,000,000, which was quite an order. Here is where the Liberal members sitting behind the government could strengthen its hands if they would only join with the opposition more and insist on a non-political, business-like executive body being set up with authority to direct and coordinate Canada's war supply programme. That is their duty just as much as it is ours. We have boards, missions, commissions and committees, and information is being given to the public with respect to all contracts let, but the volume is so large that I for one cannot begin to analyse or check them, nor do I think any member of the house can. Contracts are being let by the thousand, and we know of sub-contracts being let by the thousand, too, so that it is impossible for us, no matter how much we as members of the house would like to check them, to keep track of them all.
We hear at times of favouritism, patronage and waste. I have heard it from the boys in uniform who have gone from western Canada down east and come back home, and I have heard it from men not in uniform who were employed on construction contracts. These men come back home from time to time and tell of waste and a few other things that are going on which I think should be corrected. I am not going to be too critical of the government or of any minister in that regard, because I do not think it is humanly possible for any minister to keep track of all that goes on.
The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) and the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) gave us a fair and clear-cut statement of the activities of their departments and showed that they

The Address-Mr. Perley

are anxious to be fair and reasonable in meeting criticism and giving us information. I repeat that I am not charging any minister for some of the things we sometimes hear are going on, for all parties are cursed with a certain class of people who are bound to bring in patronage, favouritism and things of that kind.
One request has been made which I should like to support and that is free transportation and Christmas leave for the soldiers. I do hope the government will take into consideration the suggestions that have been made in that regard. Many of the men are far from their homes and the distance across Canada is great, but I hope the government will do the very best they can and give the boys who are a long way from home a chance to get back for Christmas.
We have heard now from four ministers.
We are all agreed that the war is the paramount question before parliament to-day; nevertheless there are certain domestic problems that are second only in importance to the war, and of such importance that they should be dealt with by parliament now at this session.
We have heard from the Minister of Agriculture. He was the first to go to bat, and his speech may be divided into three parts- introductory; his achievements with respect to the agreements overseas; and thirdly, an account of his trip. I certainly enjoyed listening to his description of what he saw in Britain and his account of the fine spirit of the British people and their firm resolve that they are going to go on until they have won this war. It was splendid to hear the minister describe the spirit of the people he had seen there. I think we were all a little more British after listening to that part of his address.
But I regret exceedingly that in the first part of his speech he ran true to form, just as we have heard from him on former occasions. I say that the first fifteen minutes of his speech was uncalled for, and not becoming to a cabinet minister or one seeking the leadership of a great party. This has happened before; I believe this was the second occasion on which he pulled off the same thing. I do not think the people of Canada appreciate or are looking for that sort of thing at this time. The minister abused the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) and the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (Mr. Coldwell)-


An hon. MEMBER:: They looked for it.


Ernest Edward Perley: No, they did not look for it. It is their right and privilege to offer constructive criticism. The amendment is

constructive, and the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation also offered constructive suggestions; I venture to say that two-thirds of what he advocated will be adopted by this government within the next eighteen months. I do not think hon. members have to stand for that sort of thing.
The minister went on to refer to the election last March, and cited his own case in particular. I can tell him that if the third candidate had dropped out two days before nomination day, Mrs. Lucas would have been sitting over to my left representing the constituency of Melville. It was the Liberal machine, efficient and well-oiled, that helped to win that election; I might mention such things as dug-outs in his own constituency and telegrams circulated promising bonuses which in some instances never were paid. Just to indicate what really brought about that election result, I should like to refer to the auditor general's report for last year, tabled in this house within the last few days. For the information of all hon. members I should like to quote from page 61 of that report, where the auditor general deals with the administration of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. He says:
Commitments of approximately $1,315,575.20 were incurred in excess of the amount appropriated without certificates of the comptroller of the treasury being secured. . . .
Of that amount the auditor general goes on to say that small projects, such as dug-outs and so on, accounted for S909,553. On the next page he deals with contracts let under this legislation, and says:
The contract with the Northern Wood Preservers, authorized by P.C. 223 of January 31, 1939, provides for the purchase of not less than 400,000 and not more than 500,000 posts. Payments to the company are, by the agreement, to be made after inspection, three cents per post being withheld to secure the subsequent loading. As of March 31, 1940, payments had been made on 494,883 posts-
That was practically the maximum amount authorized.
-but only 188,600 had been delivered.
Then on page 66 we have the report with regard to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, which is the bill under which the bonuses are paid. I should like hon. members to listen carefully to this statement:
Several awards were made by the minister covering yields not accepted by the committee. Farmers were not required to make applications for assistance. . . . Awards have been made on summer-fallow acreage where in many cases the summer-fallow exceeds the seeded acreage. A limited test audit showed that of the total cultivated acreage approximately 35 per cent was in summer-fallow.

The Address-Mr. Perley
And again:
Payments have been made in many cases where the cultivated acreage was too small to put persons in the category of farmers.
And again:
Payments have been made to persons who, in no sense, were grain farmers-[DOT]
That is what has been going on under this branch of the Department of Agriculture. I appeal to hon. members to see to it, when the estimates are under consideration this year, that some direction is given that this sort of thing must stop in Saskatchewan. This is the third auditor general's report to condemn the actions of the minister. I have brought the matter to the attention of the house previously, and I do so again now. This sort of thing should not be permitted, and hon. members are not hon. members if they do not do something to stop it.
The minister stated that the government had spent millions to help the farmers of the west, and mentioned what had been done by way of increasing the storage facilities for grain. I say that assistance should have been given directly to the farmers and not to the grain trade. I should have liked time to recite bow the annexes being built to accommodate twenty-five or thirty thousand bushels will be paid for in three months on the basis of the storage charges being collected. I say these storage charges should be readjusted, because this is very different from grain storage in a regular terminal elevator.
The minister's statement contained nothing definite with respect to wheat, nor did it hold any immediate promise of relief for the wheat grower. As reported at page 101 of Hansard the minister told us what wheat we might expect to sell during the next five years, a total of 2,080,000,000 bushels. This includes 160,000,000 bushels a year to the United Kingdom, 160,000,000 bushels a year to other countries provided the war progresses as he hopes or is over, and 160,000,000 bushels annually for domestic consumption. The last figure is a little high, I am afraid; the domestic consumption at present is only about
110,000,000 bushels annually. I would say the minister is an optimist, but I am going to agree with him in very large measure. I have always been an optimist with respect to our large wheat surplus. I never worried very much about it in Mr. Bennett's time, in 1934 and 1935, when the situation was similar to that which exists at present. I can recall, however, the minister and other members of the house going up and down Saskatchewan at that time saying that Mr. Bennett was hoarding wheat and not selling it, and criticizing us for taking money from 14873-131
the treasury to carry this tremendous load. They also said that Mr. Bennett's policy was one which would bring about the control or restriction of production. Well, I think the minister is pretty nearly right in his estimate;
I think he will get rid of his wheat, but I would like to see him courageous enough to fix the price, as we did under similar circumstances in 1935, at 87i cents.
I am not going to say anything with regard to the control of production. I am a little hesitant about offering any suggestions, because any suggestions I have brought forward on the floor of this house during the last two or three years have been ridiculed by the government, although it is some satisfaction to know that almost all of them have been subsequently embodied in the legislation that has been brought down. If the minister is interested in a proposal I made with regard to the control of production, he might look up Hansard for 1934.
The minister comes to the bouse without anything for the butter producers, although he has something for those producing cheese. What about bacon? Perhaps his statement was a little previous. He spoke of the greater quantity we might ship, but he added, "I cannot divulge the price." Well, it happened that the head of one of the leading Canadian packing plants was in this city, and, I believe, in one of the galleries of this house, the day the minister made his statement, and the price was set the next day. Was that just a coincidence? Why could the minister not have said, "Well, we will have to take a lower price, boys, but you can produce all the pork you like and they will take it." I am afraid there was not very much in his speech for the hog producer. I do not think the minister needed to go to England at all. I believe it would have been sufficient if he had sent the chairman of the bacon board. It seems to me that if the minister's trip cost this country even a dollar, that was one dollar too much, for nothing whatever was accomplished that could not have been accomplished by negotiation with the representatives of the British authorities right here. Let him tell us what he accomplished over there that could not have been achieved by negotiation. He said further that the producers must supply and expect only sufficient to carry on. Let me quote from page 97 of Hansard:
I think it is our duty to place the food supplies available for empire consumption at the disposal of the empire through the food and shipping ministries of Britain, to be directed to any market they think advisable. I think we should receive in return from the British government for these supplies sufficient to make it possible for our farmers to carry on producing food supplies.
19S
The Address-Mr. Parley

The statement is that the farmers are expected to produce as long as they receive sufficient to carry on. May I ask, then, why it is necessary to have the grain exchange remain open? As regards carrying on at cost of production, let me say that our farmers are just as patriotic and are just as much in this war as any other class of industry or any other section of the community, and all we want for them is a fair price, a price comparable with that which industry is receiving for what it produces of the commodities that farmers have to buy.
Take an eight-foot binder. I recall a statement made by the minister last year with regard to the binder used on his own farm. In 1913 it took 260 bushels of wheat to buy that binder; in 1936, since this government took office, an eight-foot binder cost 300 bushels odd; and to-day the same binder costs 630 bushels. What we want is a comparable price, a price that will be fair and equitable, so that all classes will be making about the same sacrifice. Then the farmer will produce at any cost.
Last fall, after the house closed, the minister made a trip to the west. He said that the growers might expect a much better price for the 1939 crop if the war got no worse or if it should end at any time, and he definitely advised the farmers to increase hog production. He made another trip a little after that, and I have the report of the interview that appeared in the Regina Leader-Post. In large headlines, the statement was attributed to him that the wheat policy announcement might not come until November 1. November 1 was the day the farmer paid his threshing accounts; that was the big day he settled his accounts, and that would be the day on which the government would announce their permanent wheat policy. He must have had in mind this trip overseas. However, the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) paid us a visit about that time, and a few days later, in the Regina Leader-Post, there appeared a statement in which that hon. gentleman declared that December 1 would be the big day, and he said he had been advised that the general wheat delivery quota could be fixed for the first week in December. December 1, then, was the big day. I suggest that these two ministers should get together on the announcements they make with respect to this one department of government.
It is quite apparent that the Minister of Agriculture is in more than an advisory capacity. He is head of two other departments, agriculture and national war services, and to a great extent he is manager of public works-he steps in there. If we look over

the situation we find that he is pretty well running about four departments of government. I agree with the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) that it is time the Minister of Agriculture paid special attention to one department and one only. The producers, he says, must not be pessimistic. Let me say this. In western Canada there is an emergency situation that calls for immediate action. It has come about from one or two causes. I am not going to charge the government with responsibility for the first cause, namely, the loss of a certain amount of the European market where we enjoyed an export trade of 100,000,000 bushels. We have lost that and I am not going to charge the government with responsibility for it; nevertheless that has made the situation more serious. It has become a national problem and one that must be considered as such by this government. It is this government's direct responsibility.
When the war broke out, there were certain problems that were unsolved in Canada. There was the problem of scarcity in the midst of plenty, about which we have heard so much from our friends in the corner to my left; there was the problem of a reasonable standard of living for the Canadian people; there was the problem of parity of prices; and there was the problem of production. These questions are all on the government's doorstep and they have not been courageously dealt with. They must be settled immediately. One cause, then, has been the loss of markets; the other cause is the failure of the government to handle the situation in a constructive, courageous way.
Hon. members will recall that on June 27 last I tried to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing this allimportant public question of wheat, but my effort was frustrated. It was apparent then, however, what was going to happen, and it did happen. I was ruled out of order and nothing was done. Certain bills were rushed through in the last day or two of the session, but no adequate picture was presented to the house.
I contend that we must have action immediately because an emergent situation does exist, a situation that has come about as a result of lack of cash in circulation in western Canada from the crop as compared with what we had in 1939. There is some misunderstanding with respect to farm conditions in the west. We normally market up to the first of November about 75 per cent of the crop. This year by the first of November we had marketed 205,000,000 bushels, whereas last year, on the first of November, we had marketed
312,000,000 bushels. That means, at the same

The Address-Mr. Perley
price

70 cents, netting 50 cents to the farmer -that there was from $50,000,000 to $55,000,000 less in circulation in western Canada on the first of November than there was at the same time last year. The eight-bushel quota, 50 cents, average, pays only current taxes, cost of harvesting and cost of labour. The merchants have not been paid and their position is desperate. Winter is coming on and the farmer has no surplus money to provide fuel or clothing. Things are at a standstill.
I am going to offer a suggestion, because there have been many complaints since last August, since this situation came about, and suggestions have been offered to the government. But see what has happened in Manitoba. The Hon. Mr. Bracken out there has been calling conferences; he has had representatives from all parts of the west meeting with him, and I think he has made suggestions to this government. Evidently they have not listened, and hon. members know what has happened out there. He is going to be down here in a few days, and we had better adjourn pretty soon or he will be here before we get back west.
I have made certain suggestions; the government, while they did not at the time accept them, generally do in the end. Therefore I am offering this one now in the hope that they will act on it, and do so quickly. It is this: to increase the initial price. I want hon. members from western Canada to think it over. They know the situation out there. What more can the government do to relieve this agricultural situation right now? The winter is here. Increase that price to 87i cents, or 90 cents would be better


An hon. MEMBER:: Make it a dollar.


Ernest Edward Perley: No, I am not one of those who talk bosh; I am saying what is reasonable. What can this government do to relieve the situation? They can increase this price and make it retroactive to August 1, 1940. That would start about $40,000,000 in circulation at once. But it will all come east. Merchants there are cancelling their wholesale orders, refusing their drafts, but this would start money in circulation. If the government do not do this, they will have to do something which will cost just as much in the end.
In making that suggestion I go further. I am going to show how they can get that and how they can save it. First, on the ordinary expenditure in the next fiscal year they can save at least $30,000,000. They can save under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act, if they cut out some of the stuff, at least
$2,000,000. The minister told us last year he was going to cut out $700,000, but he went beyond his authority, he had to stretch it and overspend to the extent of $1,300,000. The government services could be cut so as to save $5,000,000 all over Canada; the overloaded civil service could be reorganized, and $5,000,000 saved there. Then the grain exchange could be closed and we could make a saving there of commissions and brokerage fees paid to that organization for which they are not giving a single dollar's worth; at least $1,000,000 could be saved there. They can save $15,000,000 in storage fees paid on grain now in elevators in western Canada, in these annexes, space offsight as they call it, drawing two-thirds of a cent a bushel a month, and paying for the space in three months. That should be readjusted. Then we should stop paying storage in box cars. And the government should take full charge of the whole grain marketing system in western Canada, including coarse grains and all, as the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar suggested.
If I had time I could outline how a very great saving could be made to the individual farmer right now. The hon. Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) I venture to say lias heard about it; stop this racket that is being perpetrated on the western farmer this year more than ever before in the last thirty years. Hon. members have been sitting here for thirty years trying to devise a scheme whereby the farmer would get a fair deal in marketing his wheat. We spent a month amending the grain act the last year that Hon. Doctor Motherwell sat in this house. After all that, there was perpetrated this year the greatest racket by way of storage fees, dockages, undergrading and the like, that there ever was. I have samples from the constituency of the Minister of Agriculture; I have sent samples to Ottawa and to the grain inspection at Winnipeg, and have had different grading on the Winnipeg ones-"they have not authority to grade it here"-from that they are giving at the interior elevator. I have in my room samples graded No. 3, and No. 3 rejected; I would like the minister to come and look at them. There is a racket being practised there that should be stopped. There is only one way to do it, that is for this government to have the courage to do it. It is an outrage on the farmers of western Canada to permit it to go on.
Let me now deal with the bankers for a moment. The question of advancing money on wheat on the farm has come up and will come up. If the government did what I suggest, increase the price, with the storage paid to the farmer on the farm, then the
The Address-Mr. Perley

bankers should be told by this government that it is time for them to get into this picture and do their share to relieve that situation by reasonable loans. If the price were around ninety cents and storage paid on the farm at two-thirds of a cent a bushel a month, the bankers should be told to make reasonable advances to the farmers and if they do not, this government should talk to them. The farmer sells his grain to the elevator and the elevator has the power under the grain act to hypothecate the wheat to the bank and get on the wheat the money that he pays to the farmer for it. I would say to the banks, the farmer can hypothecate his wheat in his bin, and you make these advances, or we will take steps to see that you do, or do something with respect to amending the Canadian Bank Act.	The
government can do a lot of things if only they have the courage.
Suggestions have been made with respect to stopping the importation into Canada of agricultural products; pork products were instanced by the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon).
Then I would refer for a moment to domestic freight rates. The government can do a great deal for the farmers by readjusting those rates; this pork production means that our coarse grains should be coming east in greater quantities, as they would if the freight rates were adjusted.
My time is almost up. I appeal to this government to take action immediately along the lines I have suggested. By doing so they would give a measure of justice to the farmers of western Canada. We are all behind the government in doing anything at all to put this industry in its proper place. The farmers are patriotic; let us deal with them in such a way that they can go hand in hand with us; the effort that Canada is putting forth at the present time will be of such a character that we shall emerge with democracy saved, and liberty and justice preserved, and we shall be first in the great commonwealth of British dominions. The Canadian farmers will do their part.


Mr. F. P. WHITMAN (Mount Royal):: 
Karl Kenneth Homuth: Go right ahead; it is all right.


Frederick Primrose Whitman: I refer specifically to the statement reported to have been made by the leader of the opposition, in which he said that the Ogdensburg meeting between the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) of Canada and the President of the United States was made in part with the idea of ensuring the president's reelection. If such a speech were made, I believe that the best interests of the British empire were not served.
I believe that any speech or word that tends to weaken friendly relations which exist between the British empire and other democracies is dangerous and unpatriotic.
It is further reported that in the same speech the leader of the opposition stated he was not unaware of the attitude in the past of our Prime Minister toward the United States. I am glad the leader of the opposition is aware of the attitude of our Prime Minister toward the people of the United States. I hope that all hon. members are aware of that attitude. I hope that that attitude is made clear to every Canadian citizen from the Atlantic to the Pacific. I will go farther. I wish that attitude could be .made clear to all the nations of the world. It has been one of friendliness and cooperation, and had it been followed by the nations of Europe we would not now be embroiled in this most beastly and horrible war. If the attitude of our Prime Minister has resulted in nothing more than a cementing of the friendship between the United States and the British empire, then it is my considered opinion that he has done more than any other living man for the British empire.
Among the criticisms levelled at the government mention has been made of the inefficiency of the government's mobilization act which was passed at the last session of parliament. Criticism of this kind is puerile and discloses a lack of understanding of its purpose and its effect. Allow me by comparison with the Military Service Act of 1917 to indicate the difference in effect of the two acts upon Canada as a nation. The Military Service Act of 1917, adopted by the then union government, actually disunited this country, while the effect of the mobilization act of 1940 is consistent with the government's policy of building and maintaining a united Canada.
The whole country from the Atlantic to the Pacific is responding nobly because of its realization that the mobilization act of 1940 has been passed with one object in view, namely the training and preparation of our man-power. It has been designed for our selfpreservation and for the preservation of our democratic institutions.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Why have they changed it?


Frederick Primrose Whitman: By way of further
criticism we have heard it said that our factories are not yet producing rifles, ammunition. uniforms, boots and other equipment required by our troops. I would place this unwarranted criticism under the heading of either lack of information or the desire to misinform.
With respect to the production of guns in Canadian factories I received a bulletin on October 17 stating that we in Canada were about to produce some of the largest naval guns produced in the British empire. That statement was reported to have been made by a minister. On October 21 a correction came to me saying that the minister had stated that naval guns were shortly to be produced in Canada in a factory which was one of the largest in the British empire.
I respectfully suggest that a copy of this correction should be mailed to the leader of the opposition, because apparently his copy has gone astray. I recall clearly that during the last world war the training of the third Canadian division artillery in Canada was accomplished without any weapons whatsoever. In fact we did not touch a piece of field artillery until we reached England, and only two and a half months before we landed in France on active service. Our complete training in Canada consisted of adapting ourselves to military discipline and getting ourselves in good physical condition. Notwithstanding this, the division wrote history by their loyalty and valour. Canadian troops seemed to adapt themselves to any position in which they found themselves in the last war, and I have every confidence that that old tradition will be lived up to by the present army. So we see just how unwarranted criticism of the kind I have indicated may be, when we realize that within fourteen months of our entering the war we are operating on a colossal war-producing basis. We are producing practically all the instruments of war, to say nothing of the fact that we are making Canada the hub of the empire's training scheme.
May I respectfully add my plea to that which has been made by other hon. members respecting the proposal that the government
The Address-Mr. Whitman

supply free transportation to and from their homes, as frequently as possible, to members
of our active service force and our nonpermanent active militia.


Georges Parent: I must remind the hon.
member about the rule which does not permit the reading of speeches. I have mentioned that rule earlier in the debate. I do wish the hon. member would obey that rule. It is there and it must be observed.


Frederick Primrose Whitman: I think all hon. members are well aware of the importance of home ties to our men who are proceeding overseas. I feel I would be lacking in my duty if I did not add my voice to those already raised in asking the government to give this matter their earnest attention.
There is another matter which has not been brought up by any previous speaker and which, I believe, is quite praiseworthy. I refer to the evacuees from Europe and the British isles who have been coming to Canada. The humanitarian efforts which have been put forth by the government and the civil service are most praiseworthy, and I should like to add my congratulations to the government upon making this possible. As I go through my riding of Mount Royal daily, I meet many evacuees, and they are all pleased to be in the country and most thankful that they have been given a haven of refuge.
This brings up another matter, the increase in industry which has taken place because of this evacuee movement. I would mention the Bata shoe company which was brought to Canada by men of capital in Czechoslovakia. I cannot give the exact statistics, but I know that several other industries have located in this country and are now giving employment to thousands of Canadians. Industries have been set up where there were no industries before, and all this is the direct result of the splendid efforts put forward by our government to take care of these refugees from Europe. This dominion is growing and it will continue to grow. Never in its history have commercial and industrial strides been so great as those which have occurred in the last twelve months. I think the Prime Minister and the government are
be congratulated upon having facilitated this movement.
We see that things are going along fairly evenly at this critical time. Futile and vicious criticism does not help our war effort, nor does it tend toward unity. At this time unity in Canada is of paramount importance.
I know that all members of the opposition will agree that even though it may not serve the best interests of their parties, it would
[Mr. Whitman.l
be morally wrong for them not to accept the dictum that unity for Canada should be the watchword to-day. If it would be morally wrong for them not to accept that dictum, then it cannot be politically right. The great Irish statesman Daniel O'Connell said that nothing is politically right that is morally wrong. This is the time of sacrifice, political and otherwise. Unity must prevail. Nothing must be done by any individual or group of individuals that will interfere in the minutest degree with our struggle for selfpreservation. Nothing would be more dangerous than unwholesome or thoughtless criticism, or the throwing of questions at the government with 'the single object of embarrassing them.
Let us all be mindful of the philosophy of the well-known -philosopher who said that a few drops of oil will set the political machine in motion, whereas a ton of vinegar will only corrode and canker. Let us keep oiling the machine and see that no one attempts to corrode and canker our war effort. This is the time for extreme trust, collaboration and unity. It is not a time for mistrust, prejudice and disruption. No finer words have been uttered than those uttered on the floor of this house by no less a personage than that great Liberal leader and philosopher, the late Sir Wilfrid La-urier, who said: "Love is better than hate, truth is better than falsehood, trust is better than suspicion."
On motion of Mr. Macdonald (Kingston City) the debate was adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Macdonald (Kingston City) the house adjourned at 10.20 p.m.
Tuesday, November 19, 1940.