1940-07-12

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Ottawa, 12th July, 1940.
Sir:

I have the honour to inform you that the Right Hon. Sir Lyman P. Duff, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber to-day for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. L. C. Pereira, Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



REPORTS OF COMMITTEES


[Stage Direction]
Mr. ERNEST BERTRAND (Laurier) presented the first report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. J. KINLEY (Queens-Lunenburg) presented the second report of the standing committee on banking and commerce, and moved that the report be concurred in.
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: I did not catch exactly the nature of the report. Am I to understand that the proceedings which it is
intended to print are only those concerning the application for the incorporation of the Alberta bank and nothing else? Is that the meaning of the report?


Mr. KINLEY:: We are asking concurrence to-day in order to be ready to take up the Alberta bank bill on Tuesday. I think the motion for printing covers all the proceedings of the committee in that regard.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have a copy of the report now and I find that my impression was correct. The report states:
-that it be empowered to print five hundred copies in English and two hundred copies in French of the minutes of proceedings and evidence in relation to the subject matter of bill No. 26, an act to incorporate the Alberta provincial bank.
I believe that bears out what I said, but I wanted to be certain.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 89, to amend the Cheese and Cheese Factory Improvement Act.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister explain this amendment?


Mr. GARDINER:: The bill does not make any important change in the act introduced last year. Among other things the Cheese and Cheese Factory Act made provision for the placing in cheese factories of storage rooms equipped with cold storage. During the year we were advised by the Department of Justice that a proper interpretation of the measure would make it possible to do a part of the work in a given year, namely to put in insulation, as apart from machinery equipment. Towards the end of the season, however, some doubt was raised as to the legality of this procedure, and the present amendment is to cover the point so that such operations may be legal.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 76 for the relief of Peter Logush.- Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 77 for the relief of Goldie Wolfe Goldberg.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 78 for the relief of Ethel Witkov Myers.-Mr. Bercovitch.
Salaries Act Amendment
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 79 for the relief of Tilly Fishman Constantine.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. SO for the relief of Rachel Ruth Levenstein Schwartz.-Mr. Bercovitch.
Bill No. 81 for the relief of Eleanor Mabel Campbell Townsend.-Mr. Abbott.
Bill No. 82 for the relief of Isabel Margaret Gill Bacon.-Mr. Mcllraith.
Bill No. 83 for the relief of Michele Fiorilli.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 81 for the relief of Gertie Schwartz Simak.-Mr. Bercovitch.
Bill No. 85 for the relief of Geneva Clementine Hurley Picard.-Mr. Macdonald (Brantford City).
Bill No. 86 for the relief of Rene Gaudry.- Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 87 for the relief of Fanny Costom Copelovitch.-Mr. Hazen.
Bill No. 88 for the relief of William Gerald Dickie.-Mr. Bercovitch.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Salaries Act to provide that the salary of the Minister of National War Services shall be ten thousand dollars.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask the Prime Minister if this amendment is occasioned through an oversight in drafting the measure setting up the department?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: No. The resolution is one to provide salary for the Minister of National War Services. To this end it amends the Salaries Act. The provision for the Minister's salary will appear in that act.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is the regular way of doing it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Vien in the chair.


Mr. POULIOT:: 
The CHAIRMAN:: Order. I fail to see any connection between the resolution now before the committee and the point raised by the hon. member. I would request him to defer his remarks until a more appropriate time.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank you, but I have just a word to say.


Thomas Vien: Even that, unless it is with the unanimous consent of the committee, would be subject to the rule.


Jean-François Pouliot: No one should be condemned without being heard.


Thomas Vien: Order.


Jean-François Pouliot: If you do not see it, Mr Chairman, you are the only one who does not.


Thomas Vien: Order.


Jean-François Pouliot: I shall ask the house to
change you.


Thomas Vien: I have already drawn
the attention of the hon. member for Temiscouata to what is parliamentary good manners.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am not in the least
interested.


Thomas Vien: I am sorry, but I
shall have to name the hon. member unless he conducts himself in accordance with the rules. I rule that he is out of order, and unless he appeals from my decision I must proceed to ask the committee, shall the resolution carry?


Jean-François Pouliot: Then I appeal to Mr. Speaker from your ruling.


Thomas Vien: Even the hon. member's appeal is out of order, because that appeal is not made to the chair, it is made to the house.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
the Prime Minister should say something.


Thomas Vien: Is it the pleasure of
the committee to adopt the resolution?


Mr. STIRLING:: I should like to say just a word with regard to the point raised by my hon. leader. In the bill which we dealt with the other day, the one to amend the national defence act, the amount of salary was referred to, but I fail to find such a clause in this bill.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The explanation is that the law officers of the crown preferred the method we are now adopting to the previous one. The preference, I understand, was expressed after the previous bill had been before the house.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It does
not seem to be a very important question; the minister must have a salary and he should get it in due course.
If I am not out of order, I should like to take this opportunity of saying a few words with reference to the incident which has just occurred. Let me say to the Prime Minister that the dignity of the house is in his keeping, and I am sure that any action which he may take to uphold that dignity will be supported by every hon. member who believes in the principle to which I am referring. If I may be permitted to say so, it is the duty of the Prime Minister when an occasion like this arises to say something in an effort to maintain the dignity of the house. In doing so, I am sure he will have the support of every hon. member on this side.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend that I appreciate the position which he feels I should take in these matters. I have to decide rather quickly in my own mind as to the best course to take, and quite often I feel that the less said, the less trouble we will have in the end. I did not think there was likely to be much difficulty with my hon. friend in view of the remarks of the Chairman, but I appeal to him not to interrupt unnecessarily the proceedings either of the house or of the committee with observations which may not be immediately relevant to the matter under discussion.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the Prime Minister for his good words. I should like to inquire if the Allied Supplies Limited will be under the minister mentioned in this resolution.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It will be
under the Minister of Munitions and Supply.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Mackenzie King thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 90, to amend the Salaries Act.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and bill read the first time.
Mr. MACKENZIE KING moved the second reading of the bill.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Should
not this be considered at the next sitting?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is really nothing in the bill except the one clause which makes provision for the salary of the Minister of National War Services at 810,000.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
On section 1-Salary of Minister of National War Services.
Jean-François Pouliot: I have just a few words to say, and I shall direct them to my revered leader. I think he will admit that I am not the worst offender in wasting the time of the house during this session. I always try to be short and snappy, and that is why I shall say no more on this bill.


Thomas Vien: That will be quite in order.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Are copies of the bill available?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The bill is printed and ready to be distributed. Its one clause reads:
Section four of the Salaries Act, chapter one hundred and eighty-two of the revised statutes of Canada, 1927, as amended by section one of chapter forty of the statutes of 1930 and by section one of chapter seven of the statutes of 1939 (2nd session), is further amended by adding at the end of the said section the following:
"The Minister of National War Services . . .

Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed. ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE



COMPENSATION FOR INJURY BY ACCIDENT'-STATUS OF PENSIONERS REENGAGED IN EMERGENCY

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister, for the Minister of Justice) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act to provide statutory authority for rates of compensation to members of the force injured by accident, and for the payment of expenses under the act out of any unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund, and to cover the status of pensioners who may be re-engaged by reason of the existence of a national emergency.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
156S
[Stage Direction]
House of Commons-Ventilation
Richard Burpee Hanson: I think there should be some explanation of this resolution.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The resolution explains itself.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: There is a matter which may appear to be trivial-it is actually of some importance -which I should like to draw to the attention of Your Honour, so that my complaint may reach the proper authorities. I refer to the draught which descends upon us from some quarter up above. My hon. friend from Kootenay West (Mr. Esling) was in danger of catching a very serious cold here, last night and he had to leave the chamber. I am tough and I can stand it, but his health is somewhat delicate. I trust that something may be done to remedy the condition I have complained of. My friend suggests that it might save a by-election. I hope it i3 not quite as serious as that, but certainly some remedy should be found.


Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Albemi):: Mr. Speaker, I have suffered from these conditions for years, and I concur in what the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) has said. Either some change will have to be made or we shall have to be provided with wigs.


Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Speaker, this matter was brought to my attention last night by one or two of the members on the other side of the house, and I have asked the officers of the department who are charged with the responsibility to study the system of air conditioning in this building with a view to improving conditions. I might say to hon. gentlemen opposite that it is not only they who suffer, because at certain times we have been affected in the same way. I am told that it is probably due to sudden changes in temperature which our system of air conditioning is not adapted to meet. At all events I can assure hon. gentlemen that the matter is being studied by the technical officers of the department.
LMr Mackenzie King.]



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JEAN-FRANQOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): May I ask the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) if he is in a position to give us some details as to how Allied Supplies Limited functions? Has it power to enter into contracts and capital expenditures without appropriations by parliament? Is it subject to the treasury board? Or does the government merely hand over to it sums of money to be expended at its own discretion? Will it be possible for the members to have a statement covering these questions before the end of the session?
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: Allied Supplies Limited and
similar companies functioning for the government do not enter into contracts on behalf of the government. Such contracts are made directly between the government and the supplier. The duty of this particular company and of similar companies is to administer and coordinate the contracts that have been made between the government and suppliers.


SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Alan Webster Neill: I wish to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Michaud) if he is in a position to give the decision of the government in reference to the report of the economic advisory committee on the sockeye salmon situation in British Columbia. He is not in his place, but perhaps the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) has the information.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The minister, as my hon. friend has observed, is not in the house at the moment, but I understand that he intends to make a statement on the matter later in the day.


THE PRESS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. R. ADAMSON (York West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Secretary of State (Mr. Casgrain). Has the government had any discussion with any

Rules oj the House-Procedure
newspapers with regard to their publishing material banned by the press censors for Canada? Has any newspaper disobeyed the orders of the censors? Has the government any intention of prosecuting newspapers who so disobey the censors? Does this come under section 16(d) of the defence of Canada regulations?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Perhaps my hon. friend would allow his question to stand as a notice, and he will be given an answer on Monday.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Certainly.


INITIAL PAYMENTS ON 1939-40 CHOP
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. E. WRIGHT (Melfort):: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) what is the rate of interest paid on the money borrowed to make the initial payments on the 1939-40 wheat crop, and who is doing the borrowing, the wheat board or the line elevator companies?


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, as I was coming into the house I was handed a notice of the question my hon. friend proposed asking. The question is very indefinite. The information sought is really a matter between the elevator companies and the producers, something with which the government has nothing to do-that is, if it refers to the ordinary advances on grain delivered to the elevators. If the hon. member desires further information I suggest that he put his question on the order paper.



INQUIRY AS TO POSSIBLE AMENDMENTS TO WHEAT BOARD ACT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I should like to ask the minister (Mr. MacKinnon) a question that will not be indefinite and one that I think he will be able to answer. Will he indicate whether or not he intends to introduce any amendments to the wheat board act this session? If so, will he indicate the nature of the amendments and when we may expect them to be brought down?


James Angus MacKinnon: Mr. Speaker, apart from the question being one which asks for information on a matter of government policy, I have no hesitation in saying that legislation has been and is being considered. The hon.
member may know that the members of the wheat board are now in Ottawa in consultation with me and other members of the government on this very matter, and just as soon as a decision is arrived at the house will be informed.



INQUIRY AS TO POSSIBLE AMENDMENTS TO PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Ernest Edward Perley: I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). Within the last ten days I have received many letters indicating the probability of a crop failure again this year over quite an extensive area, and they all want information with respect to the bonusing scheme. No doubt the minister has received similar letters, and I think he will agree that there is a critical situation out there. The Prairie Farm Assistance Act is unsatisfactory in its present form. Will the Minister state whether he proposes any amendments to the act this session, and if so when will they be brought down?


James Garfield Gardiner: It is proposed to bring down an amendment to the act, but I am not in a position to indicate the nature of the amendment until the bill is brought down.



RULES OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) has drawn to my attention the fact that a part of my duty is to help preserve the dignity of the house. It is also a part of my duty to seek to see that the rules are adhered to. I would ask His Honour the Speaker if he would not inform the house, possibly on Monday next, of what may or may not be brought up under the rule with respect to questions on the orders of the day. I believe there has been a misunderstanding on the part of some hon. members with respect to the latitude that is supposed to be allowed in asking questions on the orders of the day. It is not, as I understand the rules, the right of hon. members to interrogate the ministry upon all kinds of matters without advance notice and without following, wherever possible, the other rules that are laid down for the seeking and obtaining of information. The rules of the house do provide several means whereby

Rules oj the House-Procedure
information may be obtained, and of course the rule most generally availed of is the one with respect to handing questions in to the clerk, or having placed on the order paper notices of motions for the production of papers. By our rules the asking of questions of the ministry on the orders of the day is limited to a certain class of questions, those which cannot be answered effectively in the other way. If that were understood we should perhaps not lose the amount of time we do.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the Prime Minister read the rule?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Standing order 44:	Questions, how put and answered. I
quote:
(1) Questions may be placed on the order paper seeking information from the ministers of the crown relating to public affairs; and from other members relating to any bill, motion, or other public matter connected with the business of the house, in which such members may be concerned; but in putting any such question or in replying to the same no argument or opinion is to be offered, nor any facts stated, except so far as may be necessary to explain the same. And in answering any such question the matter to which the same refers shall not be debated.
The latter part of the rule refers to the manner of putting questions. That portion of the rule might also be observed a little more closely than it has been.
The particular class of questions permitted on the orders of the day is dealt with in Bourinot's Parliamentary Procedure, page 354, referring to the calling of orders:
It is a practice, sanctioned by usage but not by any positive rule, for members in both houses of the Canadian parliament to make personal explanations or ask questions of the government when the orders of the day are called. They make them in reference to an inaccurate report of their speeches in the official record, or in the newspapers; or in denial of certain charges made against them in the public prints; or in reference to certain remarks which had been misunderstood on a previous occasion, and which they had not before had an opportunity of explaining; or in respect to delay in obtaining returns or to the incompleteness or inaccuracy of certain returns Drought down under the order of the house. But these remarks are not allowable on the ground of privilege, unless the conduct of a member as such is attacked, and in that case a motion should be formally proposed. Questions have been asked, when the orders are called relative to the state of public business, or other matters of public interest. But no discussion should be allowed when a minister has replied to a question, nor after a member has made his personal explanation.
There are several other references as to the questions which may be asked, which references I unfortunately have not before me at the moment. I should like His Honour the

Speaker to advise the house on the matter. We are likely to proceed more rapidly with the business if there is a complete understanding of it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is of course wholly proper that we should observe the rules of the house, but I would point out that from the point of view of private members it is a privilege which they will not likely part with if the decision should be that they can ask innocuous questions only on matters of privilege and the like. My own view is that matters of importance, such as the health of the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Esling) are quite proper things to call to the attention of the ministry at this time. I should not like to see this privilege curtailed by a rigid application of the rule. By such a decision private members would be robbed of a privilege which they value very highly, and I hope that when Your Honour comes to give consideration to this question you will interpret the rule in as liberal a spirit as possible.


Alan Webster Neill: There is a distinct ruling, although I cannot put my hand on it at the moment, which particularly permits members to ask questions on the orders of the day as a matter of urgency. The Prime Minister did not mention that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I agree with the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) that there should be no effort to curtail what is reasonable and fair, but I am sure that to-day we have had several questions asked to which hon. members will observe no minister could be expected to reply offhand.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think
that is true of one, at any rate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Such questions might readily be handed to the clerk and
appear on the order paper.


Ernest Edward Perley: I think the Prime Minister's statement is more or less directed to myself-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, I was
going to make it before my hon. friend spoke.


Ernest Edward Perley: If the questions which I asked to-day were put on the order paper they would be answered by "stand" or "order for return." We have been trying for two months to get the information for which I asked to-day.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, no.


Ernest Edward Perley: That is right, and it is
always "under consideration." Now the house

Department oj National War Services
is to prorogue in two weeks or so, and it is important that we get this information right away.


Georges Parent: I have already had under consideration the point that has been raised.
I have been keenly aware of the fact that many of the questions asked could not be replied to from the floor of the house but must necessarily be referred to officers of departments for reply. Therefore I accept the suggestion of the Prime Minister, and on Monday I propose to give an opinion with regard to standing order 44, keeping in view the suggestion of the leader of the opposition that it should be interpreted as liberally as possible.



NATIONAL WAR SERVICES


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of Bill No. 75, respecting a Department of National War Services.
He said: The purposes for which the government proposes to establish the Department of National War Services were given to the house in general terms by myself on June 18, and again on the 8th instant.
The department among other matters will have to do with the due execution of some of the purposes of the National Resources Mobilization Act. Certain of the purposes of the mobilization act involve functions which will be performed by departments of the government already in existence. Others do not so readily fit into any existing department. There is need, moreover, for seeing that all functions of the act are properly coordinated.
The most immediate and pressing of the duties to be discharged under the act is the conducting of a national registration. The minister of the new department will be charged with this responsibility. As I have already informed the house, the preliminary work of organization has been completed by a special departmental committee. No time therefore is being lost in proceeding with the registration itself. It will no doubt be necessary, from time to time, to make under the act further specialized surveys. Such surveys may, as required, be undertaken by the new department.
The war services department will also have the duty of directing to suitable fields of service those who have voluntarily placed their services at the disposal of the government. The coordination of the work of
voluntary service organizations will be undertaken by the department with a view to directing their energies into the most useful channels, to preventing the overlapping of functions, and to assisting in the arranging and timing of public appeals.
The department will also undertake the initiation and promotion of voluntary effort in new directions, in immediate furtherance of our war effort and to enable Canada to make in the most effective and efficient manner the necessary economic and social adjustments to meet domestic problems arising out of the war.
In organizing voluntary services, the minister will be given power to form national, provincial or local councils, committees or boards, as well as to use existing agencies.
To avoid any break in the continuity of effort and direction, and to permit of the utmost use being made of the same, the records and facilities of the voluntary service registration bureau, which was set up at the beginning of the war to receive and classify all offers of voluntary service, will be made immediately available to the new department.
The war services department will also undertake the important task of coordinating the existing public information services of the government. The minister will be empowered as well to originate or employ such further means of informing the public as may from time to time be required in order to obtain, in the furtherance of the national war effort, the utmost aid from the people of Canada.
The importance of this task can hardly be overemphasized. Perhaps the greatest single moral advantage which democracies enjoy over the dictatorships in time of war, as in time of peace, is their reliance upon the spontaneous support of an informed public. Military necessity dictates certain limits upon information, and the substitution of a large measure of compulsion for freedom of action. It does not however demand a total blackout of accurate information, or total compulsion. Those are the very things we are struggling against. The struggle will be successful on the home front only in so far as accurate information is supplied as freely as military circumstances permit. In no better way can the spontaneous desire of the great majority of our people to give their services freely be effectively harnessed to the pressing needs of this time of war.
The three important types of activity which I have mentioned and which will immediately engage the attention of the minister and of the department are illustrative of its work. The functions of the department will, however, by no means, be limited to these
1572	COMMONS
Department of National War Services
activities. Problems of internal security, of economic organization and development, of meeting social, industrial, financial and other needs, will continue constantly to arise. These may be dealt with by the Department of National War Services, by itself or in conjunction with other departments of the government as authority for such purposes may, from time to time, be given the minister by the governor in council.
In a word, it is intended and expected that the department, by its general supervision of war activities, and needs, its coordination of state and voluntary effort, and the inauguration and carrying out of special war services, as need for the same arises, will become a most effective instrument in a nation-wide furtherance of the war effort of our country.
Grote Stirling: I do not rise for the purpose of opposing this bill or for the purpose of making any extended remarks on the second reading. It is a war measure and consequently it should receive the support of the house. Whatever criticism there may be-and if there be criticism I trust it will be constructive-will come more properly in the committee stages when the minister who is designated to take charge of this new department will have an opportunity of explaining in detail what he has in mind.
As the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) has pointed out, we were foretold of this department when he made his statement at the opening of the sitting of the house on June 18, and later on that occasion he introduced the resolution and subsequently the bill which we know as the National Resources Mobilization Act, 1940. That measure was one giving tremendously wide powers to the government. Of necessity, it had to be. It was essentially a war measure. It did not mention registration, but the Prime Minister foretold registration, and registration is undoubtedly covered by the words:
. . . may do and authorize such acts and things, and make from time to time such orders and regulations, requiring persons to place themselves, their services and their property at the disposal of His Majesty in the right of Canada. . . .
And so on. In his further remarks on that occasion he said:
It is the intention of the government also to establish without delay a new department of government to be known as the Department of National War Services, to be presided over by a minister of the crown.
Then he outlined shortly the purposes of the new department. It was not merely to coordinate the activities of existing voluntary war services; it would be entrusted with the

duty of directing and mobilizing the activities of thousands of our citizens; the minister would be charged with establishing a dominionwide organization of voluntary service, and so on. He paid a fitting and well merited tribute to the work which has already been done by women's organizations, patriotic organizations, and business organizations in this country; and then he went on to point out that the difficulty in the choice of those who should be added to his ministry consisted in finding a minister suited to the particular work which he would have to handle.
We know now who that minister is. I should not think that anybody in Canada doubts that minister's ability, but there is a widespread feeling in the minds of the public of Canada that in our day we have never seen a more strenuous partisan than the hon. gentleman designated. For myself, I do not propose to be affected one whit by the fact that in the past, I believe, he has been strongly partisan. The rating that I shall give to what he now has undertaken will be based on the results which he attains, and those remarks must apply also to the two officials already appointed by him as deputy ministers.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Designated by him.


Grote Stirling: Designated by him as two deputy ministers. We shall look on at that work helpfully, ready to give our every assistance, and we trust that he will be as good as his word to us in conversation that partisanship shall be far from him on this occasion. We wish him well in this most important piece of work, and may I add the hope that the sudden change of outlook may not impair his health. When we come to the measure itself I should like to make one or two remarks clause by clause, realizing as I do that in the committee stage we may be able to arrive at a clearer understanding.
In the clause which deals with those whom he will appoint, no reference is made to the civil service commission. We shall be glad, therefore, if he will explain in what way he will make choice of those who will serve under him. Just before I came into the house 1 received a letter from the British Columbia Teachers Federation stating very strongly the position of that federation that the voluntary assistance which they offer of their members shall be made use of in that regard. There is no doubt, therefore, that that letter was written before they were aware of the contents of the second letter which the minister wrote to us members. It is his intention as far as possible to make use of voluntary effort even to the extent of the offering of

Department of National War Services
premises free of cost, and no doubt the minister, when we come to clause 2, will give us his views in that regard.
Then we come to clause 5 which deals with the powers of the minister, and I group paragraphs (a) and (b) together. National registration has already started, and of course it must have been started under the National Resources Mobilization Act and not under this measure. It has already got into operation, and important though it is, far more important work attaches to paragraph (b) which places the result of such registration and of such survey at the disposal of his majesty in the right of Canada. In other words, when this work has been done and all this information has been collected, the real work will begin, namely, the use to which the government through the minister will put all this information gleaned from the registration. When we come to that paragraph I trust that the minister will be good enough to explain in considerable detail what policies will be adopted so that the best use may be made of the information so collected.
I know that the minister cannot limit himself in committal at this stage as to what will be done, but it will be of considerable interest to the public of Canada, I believe, if they are informed what lines the government proposes to follow in making use of the information so gleaned. Whatever use is made of this information, I trust the minister will emphasize as strongly as possible that the application of it will be absolutely the same in every part of the nine provinces of Canada, so as to give a feeling of security and satisfaction to those who will watch the results of this work.
I notice that the orders and regulations which may be deemed necessary from time to time will be tabled in parliament forthwith if parliament is sitting, or within two weeks after the opening of the session if parliament is not sitting. I appeal to the government to make use of better opportunities than this provision accords to acquaint the people of Canada with these regulations. Look at it from the point of view of members of this house. They will proceed to their homes. I know that as soon as I reach my far distant home I must face a myriad of questions, with a great deal of information sought with regard to this and that which has happened during this busy session. Facts and information for our use have tumbled over each other, and it is hard enough even here to put one's finger on just what one wants in the way of certain information. The government was good enough to accede to the suggestion that certain other orders and regulations should be published daily or weekly in the Canada Gazette, and I
trust the minister will see to it that every opportunity is afforded hon. members, people in public positions and the public of Canada generally to inform themselves and to keep informed as to just what is going on under this measure. I trust also the government will take us into its confidence with regard to the penalties which may be imposed, the sort of infractions with which those penalties will deal, and in what manner they will be imposed.
As I said before, this is essentially a measure which can be dealt with more usefully in the committee stage, and I shall reserve any further remarks until that time.
Mr. JEAN-FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata): Mr. Speaker, this is a very important bill, which will afford the minister in charge an opportunity to show his ability in the coordination of the various services essential to the carrying on of the war and essential also to preserve that comity which is necessary if we are to achieve our goal, which is victor}'.
In reading this bill we get very little idea of the many duties that the minister will have to perform, or of the various organizations that will come under his control. I wonder if it would not be possible for the government to supply hon. members with charts of the new department showing the various new bodies, boards, companies or whatever they may be called, in order that we may all become familiar with the structure of the war civil service. That was done by the civil service commission in regard to the set-up prior to the beginning of the war, and it would not seem a difficult matter to have up-to-date charts prepared. At my request one of the ministers had such a chart revised to date, and it has been most useful in permitting comparison so that we may know just where we stand.
I read with great care the elaborate statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) on July 8 with reference to the appointment of several men of industrial and business fame, who have agreed to serve either in or with the government during the war. There is a great difference between the average business man and the average politician. The average business man works for his own profit, which is legitimate; the average politician-I shall not insult anyone, even my revered chief, by calling him a statesman, because I think the word "politician" is much better-has to look after the public good. Therefore we have two entirely different conceptions, as was admitted by no less a person than Mr. Bland, chairman of the civil service commission, when I was talking
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to him about civil engineers in private practice and civil engineers in the government service. At times a man in the government service may have more foresight than one in private practice; he may recommend the execution of plans which will not bring results at once but which in the long run will be of great benefit to the community and to the state.
At this point I consider it my duty to warn the minister against the intrigues that he will find in each branch of his vast department among people who will try to secure personal importance by promoting schemes that may be dangerous. At the head of a huge department like this we need a man who has practical sense, and I pay the minister no mean compliment when I say that I believe he has a great deal of it.
There is one other matter. He will have to see that everything functions harmoniously, without friction; and to attain that end, there must be in every one under his control a salutary fear of the minister. The minister shall really be the head of the department, and the orders shall come from above, not from below. This means that the minister, who has courage as well as common sense, shall 'be the boss in his own department, and shall let no one interfere with his decisions. Of course he will have an opportunity to select very good men as his deputies. I know one of them. I know General LaFleche, for whom I have the highest regard. He was one of the best appointees of the last regime, a man who puts his duty before any political consideration. He is a man in whom I have the utmost confidence. My brother who served with him for three or four years overseas in the last war told me that one could not have a better colonel than was General LaFleche.


Mr. MacNICOL:: That is one good thing Bennett did.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am sorry; my hon. friend should take his hand away from his mouth before he speaks, and I would then understand him. I do not know if he is speaking or chewing gum.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I will tell the hon. member plainly.


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not want any interruptions when I speak. I regret very much not being able to face you, Mr. Speaker, when I speak, but you will understand that it is due to geographical considerations.
There is another point which the minister must realize is of the utmost importance. He will be in charge of the registration of all men in Canada. He will have to understand

conditions existing in all parts of the country. There is nothing which offends me more than to see something done which leaves the impression that the province of Quebec is a kind of preserve where views are different, where opinions are different and where one would find a queer class of people who do not feel like other people in Canada. That is why, sir, I object strongly to the radio programmes which have been given wide publicity, and on which people in high places in the province of Quebec have stated that we are all for victory. Of course we are all for victory; of course we are. But we must understand one thing, and that is that the French-Canadian of the province of Quebec is ready to defend his country, from Halifax to Vancouver, and he does not need conscription to force him to enlist, provided he is sure that his efforts will serve for the defence of Canada. It must be understood that patriotism need not be taught to the province of Quebec. It must be understood that every soldier who enlists shall serve with a minimum of risk and a maximum of protection for his country.
I have put in a nutshell my idea of the proper management of the department. Of course there will be close connection between it and the Department of National Defence. Hon. members will recall that in a previous session I objected strongly to the amputation from the Department of National Defence, when contracts were placed under another department. I understand that matters of supply have gained in importance since the beginning of the war, and it must be understood that at this time the Department of Munitions and Supply is just one of the branches of the very large Department of National Defence. The department now being set up is another branch.
I -would ask the minister of this department to get into close cooperation with the various ministers of the army, air and naval branches of the Department of National Defence, and also with the minister in charge of the Department of Munitions and Supply, so that they may form a council which at times might be presided over by the Prime Minister. I understand that would be the place where the most important decisions would be made.
I would ask the minister to pay no attention to the brass hats; they are pests. When defence matters were before the House of Commons three or four years ago, I asked for a cleaning of the Department of National Defence. I hope the minister will not have to submit the legality of the business he does, or business done under his instructions, to the branch presided over by the judge advocate general of the Department of National

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Defence. I will tell you, sir, why I say that;
I say it because that man is not qualified to occupy such a high position. They are putting two crutches under him in order to get him to his job so that he may get his salary, when he is not competent to do the work. I hope the minister will be careful with regard to that matter.
Of course the civil service commission decide about appointments in that department as well as in other departments. They have no experts who know anything about matters of the kind. They are qualified only to judge stenographers, typists and clerks-and not so well, even in those instances. I will tell the minister to be very careful about relics from the civil service commission. As he knows, a spittoon which has been in a department for scores of years, may, on account of antiquity, become a venerable cuspidor. But it is still the same thing.
Further, I would tell the minister of the experiences I gained while listening to reluctant witnesses and while studying files very closely. I learned that the proportion of able men and women in the civil service of Ottawa in the class of those who have salaries of between $3,000 and $5,000 a year is one-half. The proportion of able men and women among those who have salaries of between $5,000 and $10,000 is one-third. Then, when it comes to above $10,000-and in this class I make exception for those who are elected by the people-the proportion of able employees is nil. Therefore I ask the minister to be very careful about experts and about reports made to him. This is said in all sincerity by one who has known and knows, and who sees what is going on now.
There is no time worse than war for intrigue by some people. They take advantage of the fact that there is an enormous increase in government business, and under those conditions they push their own business ahead.
There is one further point. The minister has written a letter in which he has said that before conscription is imposed opportunities will be offered for voluntary enlistment. On that point I agree with him entirely. I say that if the proper course is followed and if men are asked to enlist for the defence of Canada, the response will be admirable. I know that. It has been said by all, and it is true.
There is another point to be considered. The people hear that this country is being defended; they feel that it should be, but they can see nothing. If we cannot have regiments, at least there should be companies of soldiers located at various places throughout Canada in order that the people may realize that the country is well defended and
therefore feel more secure. The minister knows that at the present time there is woriy in every home in Canada, and this worry has been increased largely by the stupidity of our censorship. We read things like the Canadian Press dispatch I have before me of what was . said in England. This dispatch was published on July 3, but I shall not read it now. There should be an effort made to make our censorship intelligent. Our people need proper information, not only to cheer them up but in order that they may keep well posted on what is going on and possibly feel more secure in these troubled times.
The question of remuneration for those who will assist in this mobilization of manpower has been- referred to. It is always dangerous to ask people to offer their services gratuitously. It reminds me of the dear old Irishman who was not particularly well, off and went to a barber to obtain a free shave. The barber had a razor which was not very sharp and the poor man in the chair was soon feeling quite uncomfortable. There was a cat in the building making a great deal of noise, and the barber finally said, "What is the trouble with that cat? It must be an Irish cat getting a free shave." Free services are not always beneficial to the state. The people are ready to make sacrifices, but they hear of large salaries being paid to certain people here in Ottawa, especially to the governor of the Bank of Canada. That gentleman is being paid $30,000 a year and yet he tells the people that they must economize. They feel that if he is being paid $30,000 a year to do things that they know very little about, they should receive at least S3 a day for taking part in this registration. Their crops have not been harvested and they do not always receive good prices for what they grow. What I have suggested would be another means of satisfying the people. We should make every effort to eliminate discontent among our people. We should try to make them as comfortable as possible under the circumstances. They should not be permitted to forget that there is a war on, but they should be able to see that the government is looking after their best interests.
I should like to tell my colleague one thing. He should not consider Quebec as being distinct from the other provinces of Canada, as being a province where the people think differently. I have spoken in Ontario, New Brunswick and other places the same language that I speak in Quebec, and I have not been ashamed. The trouble is that we do not know ourselves well enough. Considerable progress has been made in bringing about
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a better understanding between the different parts of this country by the visits back and forth of our people. In this particular instance there is one thing that should not be done. There should not be any favouritism, and the people should not be persecuted as they were during the last war.
We are fighting a common cause and no one should be prevented from serving when he is willing to do so. Many obstacles have been placed in the way of enlistment, so many that I could not enumerate them in the time at my disposal. If the minister wants men to defend this country he should take the proper steps to see that their offers of service are accepted. They are ready to serve, but they should not be called. AH obstacles in their way should be removed so that they may have an opportunity of serving their country to the best of their ability. A man makes a great sacrifice when he joins the army, but he makes that sacrifice for his own protection and for the protection of those whom he loves.
If the government adopts a proper policy in connection with the defence of this country, there would not be any difficulty in getting hundreds of men. At any time I can go into my constituency and get a thousand of the best men, such as lumberjacks, farmers' sons and others, who would be ready to enlist voluntarily for the defence of their country. I made that offer a long time ago in a newspaper which is published in my constituency. This country has a long sea coast on both oceans. It is a large country, but our people see only a few soldiers. Yet we send some of them to England because of sentimentality. England is only one-quarter the size of any province, yet her population is four times that of all Canada. If the English people cannot defend their own countiy-


Mr. CRUICKSHANK:: Mr. Speaker, on
a point of order, I think that remark is uncalled for.


Jean-François Pouliot: We live in a free country. If anyone objects to my remarks he has only to ask that the galleries be cleared. I am not disloyal. My king is the king of Canada. I am proud to have taken the oath of allegiance to him, and I keep it. But I want the house to know the feeling of my people. I believe the Englishmen are good enough soldiers to defend their own country. We need men here; we need good men; we need men more than we need prisoners of war. In these matters Canada should be considered first. England should be considered also, but as an ally whose interest we shall be ready to look after once we have seen to the defence of our own country.
(Mr. Pouliot.]


Mr. GLADSTONE:: We defend England
to defend Canada.


Jean-François Pouliot: We are free to express our opinions. The hon. member for Wellington South (Mr. Gladstone) will have an opportunity to express his afterwards. If there is one time when sentimentality should not govern, it is in time of war. Views may differ, but those expressed by the sensible men who are members of this House of Commons are of greater weight than those expressed by the experts of the Department of National Defence or of any other department. Having expressed my views, having spoken in the name of my constituents, I say to the minister that I have every confidence in him.
I hope in the very near future we shall be given details which will no doubt be prescribed by order in council as to the operation of this legislation, and we shall then be able to go into it fully and see what we can do. I have spoken as a Canadian, Mr. Speaker, and if my views are not shared by all my esteemed colleagues in the house I do not care. They have the right to express their own views. We are here to discuss matters of the utmost concern to all of us, and we must see that the Canadian people are well defended and that if there is an attack on this country by any power we shall be ready to repulse it. I am most thankful to you, sir, and to the members of the house for being so kind to me this afternoon.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Speaker, I shall be brief because at this stage of the bill I do not think any extended remarks are necessary. But there are one or two observations I should like to make with a view to ascertaining later from the minister on what he bases his hopes for the success of a scheme that is so largely voluntary. As a matter of fact, as I see it, the very reason for the bill itself is that the voluntary system has largely fallen down in producing the required enlistments, and therefore a scheme of national registration has to be introduced.
I want to approach the subject in a practical way. I presume that what the minister wants is practical suggestions to make the bill possibly more satisfactory than it otherwise might be. Before coming down to the house I took a look through one of the books of the lists of polls in my riding. There are three books containing lists of the polls, and I looked at thirty-one polls, from No. 37 to No. 67, inclusive. I found that the lowest number of electors listed for any one poll was 208, and the highest number 491. There were fourteen polls having between 200 and

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300 electors, eleven polls having between 300 and 400 electors, and six polls having from 400 to 491 electors. The highest number of any one poll was 491 electors.
I have heard that the expectation is that an elector can be registered within fifteen minutes; that is, the whole list of questions ought to be answered in fifteen minutes. I have done a little figuring and I find that, taking the lowest poll with 208 electors, and allowing fifteen minutes to register each, it would take altogether 3,120 minutes to register these 208 electors if they were all standing in line one after the other ready to come forward and be registered. That is a matter of 52 hours, which is approximately 5 days of 10 hours each. That assumes that all the electors are standing one after the other ready to be registered, which is not likely. It would probably take double the time, or thirty minutes each, to register them with the inevitable delays. I think that would be the minimum. That would mean ten days of ten hours each to register 208 electors. Ordinarily on polling day they are not compelled to go to the polls. They come voluntarily or someone else brings them voluntarily, and I do not think they could be registered in much short of twice the time in which it is assumed an elector can be registered.
Take the poll with the highest number of electors, 491. At fifteen minutes each, it would take 7,365 minutes, or 123 hours, to register that number. That is approximately twelve days of ten hours each. If it took double the time to register them, which I think is probable, at thirty minutes each it would take twenty-four days to register 491 people.
I have been wondering whether the minister has thoroughly considered the present scheme. Before the recent general election enumerators were given from the forty-ninth day to the forty-fourth day before the election to make their enumeration, and the electors at that largest poll, with 491 listed, were enumerated within six days. I do not think any poll should take longer than six days. The enumerators in the last election went around from door to door and talked straight to the electors. Then several days after the enumeration, electors had the opportunity of a revision and of adding names if they had been left off the list.
I wonder if the minister would not consider a change in the method proposed. I am not looking at the bill itself; I have not read it very carefully, but I have been told what the method proposed is.
If the general election system of enumeration were used I would suggest that the deputy registrars might go from house to house and gather the information from those whom they are able to interview, and those who are not found at home could be required to come to the office and register within a week or ten days. Some people might be away on holidays when the deputy registrar called or for some reason or another not be at home. The deputy registrars could leave a notification that those not found at home must appear and register in the following week. That would cost a lot less money than the method that is now proposed. I understand that it is proposed to pay the deputy registrars only S3 a day, and they have to depend on voluntary help to get the registration done. I personally will do everything I can to help, although if the registration takes place in August after the strenuous session we have had, and we on this side of the house have had to work hard-


Mr. MARTIN:: All of us.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Every member works,
but members of an opposition of 38 members certainly have to work hard to prepare themselves to take their part in the business of the house. Government members are not required to spend the same length of time in preparing themselves because there are more of them and there is always a sufficient number to take part in the business of the house. Speaking for myself I could not work harder than I have done this session. I work from early till late, and if the registration takes place in August, although I should like to go away for a holiday, I shall do my duty and stay at home to assist as best I can in whatever scheme the minister finally adopts. I am afraid, however, that voluntary efforts will not bring the results which our fondest hopes expect. I do not see how the registration can be made expeditiously by two registrars sitting in the booth in some residence or in a school, and I doubt very much if you would get the use of the school for nothing because a janitor would have to be on the job and janitors would ordinarily be away on their holidays. The teacher is generally away; they have had nine or ten months teaching activities, and anyone who has taught school knows what a strenuous time the school teacher has. They require their holidays. And that applies to officials who work not ten months, but eleven and a half months a year. I should like, therefore, to be assured by the minister that this voluntary help will be available.
Then as to the getting of the people to the booths, many people who have cars will be away on holidays. If the man of the house
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is in Toronto, his wife and family will probably be in Muskoka, and frequently they have the car with them, so that the obtaining of a sufficient number of cars to be made voluntarily available is going to be difficult. It is my opinion that if the scheme followed prior to the last general election had been adopted, whereby the enumerator had to do the work under direction, there would be a much better chance of having a successful registration, and after all that is the important thing. Friction is to be avoided. With so many away and not receiving notification except through the press I cannot see how they are going to get to these booths.
As to the cost, if you are going to publish large advertisements in the press that is all right; I am always glad to see the press get all they can, but that will add to the cost of the scheme, whereas if these enumerators were paid a little more perhaps they would do a better job and do it more quickly. If it was done in six days prior to the general election there is no reason why, with proper oiganization, each poll could not be done in six days or less. I think the minister should tell us, before the bill goes to the committee, just how he expects the scheme to work, and give us some information as to the basis on which the bill has been framed, whether men used to running elections had a hand in framing it, and whether their advice was followed. After all, a scheme of this kind requires absolutely practical operation, and as far as I can see this is somewhat impractical.
One more thing. What will be the connection of the national registration with the mobilization scheme of the government? I can see how, if this scheme had been tried in June when everyone was home it might have had much better success than in August when such a large number of people are away. As far as Toronto at any rate is concerned, commencing about August 20 the Canadian National exhibition will be in operation and great numbers of people will be there. So that, while I am firmly convinced that the scheme should be started as soon as possible and finished as quickly as possible, for the sake of having it a success the question of deferring it until two or three weeks later than the middle of August might be worthy of consideration; it cannot of course be started earlier now.
I have tried to speak in a practical and I hope a constructive way. I have avoided anything of partisanship; that is unnecessary in a scheme of this kind. I only want to do what I can to make any registration scheme a success.


Mr. A. G. SLAGHT (Parry Sound):: I should like to make one or two observations with regard to this important measure. The hon. member who just spoke (Mr. MacNicol) declared his virtue in that he did not propose to make any reference to partisanship. For that he is to be commended. I observed that when the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), who opened to-day from the other side, addressed the house he stressed the fact that the appointment of the new minister designate to this position was a partisan appointment.


Grote Stirling: No, he did not.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Perhaps I am not putting it quite accurately. He said it was the appointment of a man. who was known for his partisanship.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is quite different.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Whether my hon. friend thinks that statement, and the inferences which may be drawn from it, will help in the administration of this important measure, I am not able to say. He is of course aware that the choice of a cabinet minister for a particular portfolio lies with the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) whose responsibility it is. While it is the privilege of an opposition to start a new minister on his difficult task with an observation of that kind, I suggest that in this case it was in no sense warranted. I suggest that the hon. member for Yale might have completed his references to the present Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), by adding, with perfect truth, that the new minister designate has built up over a long period of public service a reputation as a capable, thorough, honourable and efficient administrator, first as premier of his own great western province, and then in the larger field of this federal government, and that his record is a splendid one of high-minded, fair and business-like administration of a difficult and important department of government. Furthermore, I suggest that he enjoys the respect of the entire people of Canada as a fearless public man who gets things done.
Apparently it was not the role of the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) to make charges of partisanship. But it did fall to the lot of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) who, in discussing this projected measure on July 9, after referring to Major General LaFleche and to Mr. Justice Davis, naming them as the two deputy ministers designate, used this language:
May I say most emphatically that the country is in no mood to tolerate partisan appointments. The first appointments made by the

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minister and announced last night are not such as to give the public confidence, either in the efficiency or in the non-partisanship of the administration of the department.
Let me for a moment advert to that type of statement in this house against two men who are not here to defend themselves, and one of whom is hastening back from important national duties in France to asume this onerous post. What yardstick my hon. friend uses when he dubs men as partisans I do not know. I would remind him that in this house some sixteen months ago the then official leader of the Conservative opposition, Doctor Manion, had occasion to express himself with regard to General LaFleche. After listening to the indictment the other day from the same seat, I turned up what the then leader of the opposition had to say on February 13, 1939, as reported at page 851 of Hansard of that year. I quote:
We were also told that we were trying to destroy the minister and the deputy minister.
He was speaking in the debate on the Bren gun. The deputy minister was General LaFleche. Mr. Manion continued:
I say that they have both been friends of mine in days gone by, and I think they are yet. As a matter of fact, we appointed the deputy;
I do not know whether that fact has been pointed out. He had a very fine record, and I have a very high admiration for him.
Then a little later, on the same page:
The deputy minister has been a friend of mine for many years and I have the utmost respect for him.
I turned up the records to see by whom and when the deputy minister, General LaFleche, now reappointed to this important position, was appointed deputy minister of national defence and I find that it was on November 2, 1932. He was appointed by the Right Hon. R. B. Bennett, then Prime Minister of Canada, at a time when the present leader of the opposition was in this house and was, I think I can fairly say, an ardent and effective supporter of Mr. Bennett and, I should expect, in his confidence to the full. The voice of the leader of the opposition of to-day was not raised on November 2, 1932, to accuse General LaFleche of being a partisan appointee. I do not know whether the difference lies in the fact that the present government, to which the hon. gentleman is opposed, has appointed General LaFleche to the position he now holds, but it seems to me that a criticism of that kind sent out to the country now ought to be exploded as one that is entirely inconsistent with the course of the hon. gentleman, who, I suggest, certainly approved the appointment of General LaFleche by Mr. Bennett in 1932.
Even if we were without those high words of praise uttered in this house by the former leader of the Conservative party, a glance at the record of General LaFleche, for whom I hold no brief and whom I had not the privilege of knowing personally until a couple of years ago, would show us that he is a man with a distinguished war record. He is a distinguished son of the great French-Canadian race in Canada. He bears personal marks of terrific injury sustained on the field of battle in France in the last war where he served his country so admirably. He comes back from Paris to-day with the experience he has gained after serving us there. He was one of the last to leave that city before France, that gallant country, was defeated That is the gentleman at whom the leader of the opposition points the finger of scorn as a partisan. Is he a Liberal partisan or a Conservative partisan? The hon, gentleman said either too little or too much.
Then there comes under the lash of his whip the Hon. Thomas Davis at the outset of the difficult task he has undertaken, released as he has been temporarily from the honourable position of a judge of the supreme court of his province. I feel as though I should have a brief for the Hon. Thomas Davis because, absent and his lips sealed, he cannot refute attack, and he is a warm personal friend of mine. I may tell the hon. gentleman that the Hon. Thomas Davis, when at the bar in his province, occupied the important post of attorney general of that province and was honoured subsequently by appointment to the bench. He holds, from the people, the bar and the bench of western Canada, the greatest respect and admiration for a public man who has always fearlessly discharged his duty. I do not know whether the leader of the opposition has ever travelled west of the great lakes, but I assume he has. However, if he has any doubt about the statement I have just made with regard to that deputy minister, I suggest that he make inquiries among such of his own followers as come from west of the great lakes and he will find confirmation of what I have said with regard to the high character of the Hon. Thomas Davis and the reputation he enjoys in that part of Canada where he is best known.
May I make one more observation. Judges have no means of refuting attacks made upon them by public men in public ways, either through the press or in the House of Commons. Statements in derogation of their character go far and wide through the press, but their lips are sealed. The leader of the
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opposition is a member of the profession to which I have the honour to belong, and I think he might well say something to the house to set straight an impression that may have been created by his remarks on July 9, to the page of which I have referred him. I would make this personal observation to the leader of the opposition. I have followed with a great deal of respect and pride the course he has pursued during this session in the difficult position in which he finds himself. I think in many ways his restraint has been excellent and his assistance constructive. I hope, however, that we are not going to start a new era of indicting from the other side of the house, through the use of destructive adjectives, unless there are some facts to back up such criticism, men in public positions, taking on difficult war tasks.
I do not want to go into the matter of the carrying out of the provisions with regard to the registration of man-power; I do not think this is the time to debate that. But the hon. member for Davenport who interjected-and I heard him-"that is one good thing Bennett did," referring to the appointment of Major-General LaFleche, seemed to have some fear respecting the registration being taken at this holiday season when many men and women would be away from their permanent homes.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I believe I said I feared for the success of the scheme if the registration were taken in the middle of August; and I wanted it to succeed.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: That is as I understood the hon. gentleman; his fears were intended to be constructive. Let me reassure him a little if I can. As I understand it, although all these matters are in the melting pot for the moment and in the making, it is intended to make provision for the registration of those who are away from their permanent homes, at summer resorts or elsewhere in Canada. They may register at the place where they find themselves residing when the registration takes place. The registration card will indicate their permanent residence, and will be selected from the others and sent to the registrar of the district where their card would have been filed if they had been at home.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That will help a great deal.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: I hope it will. As against deferring the registration until November or December, if that was in the mind of the hon. member-


John Ritchie MacNicol: I think I suggested
September, if the registration were deferred;
I did not mention November or December. rMr. Slaght.]


Arthur Graeme Slaght: To my mind this is one of the most important defensive measures we have undertaken since the beginning of the war, and speed combined with efficiency is of the utmost importance. This registration, I am credibly informed-and I have taken some interest in this subject-will be of very great benefit indeed to Commissioner Wood and the secret service of the mounted police in the administration of the defence of Canada regulations, because of the information it will compel people to give. The knowledge that is obtained will be of great benefit for industrial, organization and military purposes, in that it will enable those in key positions to remain in those positions rather than be taken into the armed forces. All this is vital information, and to my mind it should be secured with the least possible delay. I should like my hon. friend and other hon. members to keep that in mind if they have any thought of criticism on the ground that this registration is being unduly rushed.
That, Mr. Speaker, is about all I have to place before the house at this time. I do not intend to be provocative towards my hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) and the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling). I have no right to be ultra critical of hon. gentlemen of their parliamentary experience, but if I could bespeak from them some word to the country to rub out the suggestion of inefficiency in connection with the task ahead, I would feel that I had not spoken without some result.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, after that last sentence of the hon. member for Parry Sound (Mr. Slaght) I feel that I cannot possibly refuse to accede, at least in a degree, to his invitation and his plea. Having looked over the words which I used in the interrogatory I addressed to the Prime Minister the other day, perhaps I was a little too severe in the strictures I imposed upon those two gentlemen.
First let me deal with Mr. Justice Davis. I had understood that during the course of his political career he was a strenuous partisan.
I do not think there was much question about that. First impressions are always difficult to eradicate, but let me say to you, Mr. Speaker, and to hon. members of this house that I had the pleasure of an interview with Mr. Justice Davis this morning. He came to see me on my invitation, and I am bound to say that he left me with the impression that he was a man who had undertaken to do a job and was going to do it. I think that is very honest. We had a splendid interview. My primary object in asking him to come to see me was to have him explain not only the

Department oj National War Services
registration that is about to take place but more particularly the mobilization of the manpower of the country, about which I was particularly anxious. He gave me evidence of a lucidity of mind that I admired; and I am bound to say to the house that no matter what in the eyes of myself and my party may have been his offences in the past as a partisan Liberal in this country, I do believe in the assurances he gave me that having gone on the bench he had left that period of his life behind him and, in connection with this particular task, was out to do a job for Canada. Could I say anything more in that regard?
Now I should like to say a word with regard to Major-General LaFleche, whom we appointed in 1932 for two reasons. I was not in the ministry at the time; I do not believe I knew General LaFleche, but I knew of the appointment. In the first place General LaFleche was appointed because he was a returned soldier who had been wounded. In the second place he was appointed because he was a member of the great French-Canadian race, which was entitled to representation among the deputy ministers here at Ottawa. His appointment was more or less an experiment because he did not possess high administrative experience. Perhaps I am not in a position to judge as to how successful he was as an administrator. I want to be perfectly honest in the statement I am about to make, and I do not wish to do or say anything that would operate against him; but I just cannot eradicate from my mind his connection with the Bren gun affair and his subsequent appearance before the public accounts committee in connection with it. I think he stepped beyond the bounds of propriety on that occasion.


An hon. MEMBER:: Under great provocation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon.
member interjects, "Under great provocation". Well, be that as it may, the position is as I have indicated, namely, that he did step beyond the bounds of propriety which should have governed his conduct and his speech on that occasion. We all know that shortly afterward General LaFleche disappeared from governmental activity. The reason given out was the condition of his health.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was the condition of his health.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not say it was not. I say the reason given out was the condition of his health.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: And that was the reason.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the Prime Minister will just wait a moment he will see that I am not questioning that. But I think, too, that possibly there was an additional reason. His health was good enough to send him to Paris.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: But not until he had had a very considerable rest.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, I know he was entitled to some rest. No doubt it was a trying experience for him. However his health is good enough to bring him back to Canada-but not in his original position as deputy minister of national defence. Well, there may be a reason for that, and I am not going to question it.
I quite agree that if the government is going to make a success of this measure there must be in the new department an official of the French-Canadian race. They must have recognition. The scheme may fail without that. Possibly General LaFleche will be as good an appointee as could be found. But I must say to the house and country that certainly at this moment I have not as much confidence in his efficiency as, I am bound to declare, I have in the efficiency of Mr. Justice Davis. I will not say much more about that. I hope both of them will do well, because there is a national undertaking to be considered, and the minister will require all the support he can get and all the efficient energy which can be brought to that support. I believe that so far as Mr. Justice Davis is concerned he will get it.
Just one word about the minister: He, too, has been placed in the category of a partisan. I appeal to the minister: this is the opportunity of his life to show to the people of Canada that he can rise above partisanship. I believe he will do that, and if he does he will become a great national figure in Canada. I believe he can do that.


Mr. McGEER:: He is, already.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I agree that he is a great figure in the ranks of the Liberal party. But I believe he will be a greater figure in Canada if for the time being he will forget that he is a Liberal. If he does that he will probably become, in the estimation of the Canadian people, a great Canadian.
Let me follow that up by saying that in my judgment already the minister has taken two important steps in that direction, and I commend him upon having taken those steps. In the first place I am judging him from the correspondence he has sent out to hon. members. The first letter had to do with the appointment of registrars, and the second,
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which I received this morning-and I have no doubt it was received by other lion, members *-deals with the setting up of honorary advisory committees in the different constituencies. I believe the minister is approaching in a splendid manner the consummation of the effort upon which he is about to embark. May I congratulate him upon both letters, and say to him that I believe the response from the membership of the house to the atmosphere he has sought to create, and which in fact in connection with those two letters he has created, will be of the same high character. I hope it may be truly stated that the registration will be absolutely non-partisan.
I am going to invite the minister to say something. It will be understood I do not wish to retard the progress of this bill, because the Prime Minister was good enough for my convenience to let it stand over until to-day. I had not intended to speak on the bill until it reached the committee stage, and would not have done so had it not been for the invitation of the hon. member for Parry Sound.
The intention of the ministry with respect to national registration is pretty well known. I am personally prepared to do everything I can to assist the minister in carrying out what he has in mind. It is a stupendous undertaking, and will require the good-will of all who have the interests of the country at heart, and who wish to secure the information for the government. But the most important factor in connection with the minister's undertaking is in respect of the mobilization measure, and the steps he must take under it.
To-day I took occasion to discuss that feature of the matter with Mr. Justice Davis, and to secure a clearer understanding of what it is proposed shall be done. I believe the minister would serve a useful purpose if he would take ten or fifteen minutes of the time of the house this afternoon to indicate to the house and the country what is to be done with respect to that measure, based as it will be upon the information to be secured under the registration measure. I understand one is to be the basis of the other.
If it is in order, and if he is prepared to do so I should like him to tell the house the nature of the questionnaire which will be submitted to each person who registers. Of course that is a matter of importance, if we are to have the necessary information from all individuals in each community. More particularly however I wish him to tell the house and the country some of the things Mr. Justice Davis told me to-day with respect to the question of mobilizing the man-power of the country. I would ask him to point out that certain groups are to be selected from among those who register, and that particular consideration 
will be given to what might become a very difficult problem, namely the question-not of exemption, because I understand there are to be no exceptions-but rather the question of the postponement of the call.
I have in mind a man from my community who is manufacturing last blocks for a large British firm which is manufacturing the lasts upon which are being made all the boots for the British army, and prior to the capitulation was possibly manufacturing them for the allied armies. He is exceedingly anxious that at least for a time, or until the material is sent to the other side, his key men shall not be taken. I thought as a result of my conversation to-day with Mr. Justice Davis I could assure him that that is the sort of thing designed to be considered under the provisions of the order in council, and under the regulations which will be set up under this measure and the one passed a short time ago. It would be my understanding that those men will not be called.
I believe the minister would serve a very useful purpose if he were to take time this afternoon to indicate in some detail the measures he proposes to take in that respect. There can be no question that certain portions of the country are anxious to learn the plans of the government in that respect-that is, if those plans have been formulated to the degree I believe they have been formulated, and if they are now ready for disclosure to the country.
The Prime Minister indicated in the statement which he was good enough to lend me afterwards that while the most immediate and most pressing duties to be discharged under the act were in connection with the conducting of national registration, there was also the question of the coordination of the work of voluntary service organizations, and the question of public information services.
In the public press of this morning there appeared an intimation-and I do not know whether the article was inspired-that another deputy minister might be appointed, in the the person of Mr. Lash, and that he would be attached to this department. It does not appear to me that that is necessary. It might be, of course, a great advantage to have that branch attached to this department, but I suggest that we are appointing a good many high officials and it should not be necessary to make this gentleman a deputy minister and give him all the powers and functions of that position. If it is not the intention of the government to do so, I think an annouce-ment at this time from the minister would be in order.
I have only one or two observations to make with respect to the bill itself. The bill

Department, uj National War Services
confers great powers upon the minister, there is no doubt about that. In essence it is a war measure, and because it is a war measure we desire to give it support. I do not know that there is great need for haste in order to make this bill law to-day, but if the Prime Minister says there is, I am quite willing to let the measure go through. In ordinary times a measure such as this would be debated from every angle, and I do not think parliament in peace time would give to a minister all the powers that are conferred by this bill. However, it being war time, we are prepared to delegate these powers to the minister on the theory and understanding that they are necessary for the due preparation of this country for its own defence and in order that aid may be given to the mother country. It is on that theory, and that theory alone, that we support the measure. Otherwise, we would never be willing to grant the minister the powers conferred by this bill. Section 6 states:
The minister may perform such other duties as may be assigned to him from time to time by the governor in council, and he shall have all powers necessary to carry out the provisions of this act and of any orders in council or regulations made hereunder.
We are legislating by order in council. This is a most extraordinary power to be given to any government. Because it is war time we are willing to part with certain inherent rights of parliament and delegate these powers to the minister. I had hoped that the Prime Minister would not take all these powers under the mobilization bill and carry on by order in council, but perhaps I made my appeal to him at an inopportune moment when he was labouring under a little excitement. In any event, he Tefused to give consideration to any suggestion which was made at that time. I think it is the duty of hon. members who are not in the minstry, and of private members who may support the ministry, to scrutinize with the greatest care all the powers which the governor in council are to give to this minister designate and to anyone else who may be empowered under this authority. I think it is their duty to examine those powers with the greatest care, because they involve the liberty of the subject.
I do not think I should take up any more of the time of the house on the motion for second reading of this bill. I hope my opening remarks, so far as Mr. Justice Davis is concerned, will not be construed as a sign of weakness. I hope that they will be construed as an attempt to do the honourable thing. I have nothing to take back with respect to the other gentleman.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Mr. Speaker, I desire to make only a few remarks on the second reading of this bill. There is considerable information we should like to have before attempting to appraise the full value of this bill, but we can get that when the house goes into committee of the whole.
First of all, I want to extend my congratulations to the minister-designate of the new department which is now being set up. He holds views which are diametrically opposed to the views we hold, and our economic loyalties have at times been pointed in different directions, but those of us who know the minister respect him for his aggressiveness and his organizing ability. We know that when he puts his mind to it, he can do a good job. This bill gives the minister tremendous powers, but at the same time it places him under tremendous responsibility. The Canadian people will hold him responsible for the powers being granted. In time of war, by the very nature of things, parliament is compelled to give the ministers of the crown very wide powers, such as are contained in this bill. But parliament and the public generally will hold responsible any minister to whom such powers are given.
There is a great desire on the part of people all across this country to render some voluntary service, and there has been a need for the coordination and organization of this voluntary effort. I think it should be kept in mind in organizing this effort that it should take in all sections of the community and all parts of the nation. This is not a Liberal war; it is not a war of any one section of the community. In organizing this voluntary effort the minister will have to keep in mind the fact that people from all political parties and all groups in the community will want to do their share. I shall not attempt to follow the hon. member for Parry Sound (Mr. Slaght) and say whether I think the minister and Mr. Justice Davis are partisan or not. This is a time when we should measure people not by recriminations but by the results they are able to produce. After all, I suppose any man is partisan who believes profoundly in the thing for which he is fighting. One thing we are asking is that in organizing the people of Canada so that they may make a great contribution toward winning this war, all sections of the population be given an opportunity to play their part, irrespective of their politics or religious or social points of view. If that is not done, the purpose for which this department is being set up will be defeated. If the minister is able to do it, he will render what is in my opinion the greatest contribution toward Canada's war effort, next to that made by the active services.
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Department of National War Services
In organizing this voluntary war effort one of the first things that ought to be done is to use the material already gathered. I assume the minister is going to use the information obtained by the voluntary registration bureau. There are people living in outlying places in Canada who had technical experience in the last war. I have in mind four or five people now living on farms who did specialized work in the last war. One man in my constituency spent twelve years in India under the British government doing special work connected with the manufacture of aeroplanes. I know of other men who did specialized work in the munitions industry in England during the last war. These people all wrote to the bureau for voluntary registration. In some cases they got no answer at all, while in others their offers were merely acknowledged and nothing has been done. I know there has been a tremendous bottleneck, but if it is humanly possible steps should be taken to give these people an opportunity of making the full contribution of which they are capable.
This bill places the department of information under the jurisdiction of the minister-designate. As the Prime Minister put it, "democracy depends upon the spontaneous support of an informed public opinion". No truer words could be spoken. I was interested the other day in reading that an English correspondent who had lived for some years in France said that the French republic collapsed because the common people did not know just what they were fighting for. We should be amazed if we stopped to think how many people in this country are in exactly the same position. We know in this house what we are fighting for; the people we meet here know it, and professional people know it; at least I assume they do. But go out into the country in parts where people do not get a daily paper or have not a radio, where they read perhaps only the weekly papers and in some cases that terrible "crackpot" type of literature circulated in so many corners of this country, and you will find more confused thinking to-day than probably there has ever been before in this country.
In his book Mein Kampf, Adolph Hitler says that the British won the last war because they mastered the technique of propaganda, and he goes on to say that before the next war broke out Germany would have mastered it. Certainly they have done so. Theirs is a twofold propaganda, one to build up the morale of their own people and the other to destroy the morale of their opponents, and in this latter they have unfortunately been only too successful. If there is anything we need in Canada it is an organized branch of information under the minister which will give to the

people of Canada, in terms which they can understand, a clear idea of what this war is about, of the stake they have in it and of the contribution they can make towards winning it. Last fall I accepted a lecture tour with the Red Cross. I went over a large territory to explain why I, holding the social and economic views I do, felt that we ought to be in this war for all we were worth. People would come up and ask questions, and I was amazed to find how much confused thinking there was even among people in our own country.
More use could be made of propaganda over the radio-and I am using the word in its best sense as meaning the propagation of an idea. We have not begun to use the radio as it might be used. Here again the minister will not think I am criticizing, because he has not yet taken over the department. People do not want to hear just one class of people over the radio. I should like to hear, for example, a trade unionist say why he has something at stake in this war. I should like to hear a farmer tell over the radio what he has at stake and a socialist tell why he feels he has something at stake in this war. I should like to hear a man who believes in the principles of Christianity tell us of the stake he has in this war. All classes of people in Canada representing different faiths and different ideologies ought to be presenting their side of this whole war question, thus reaching others in the community who are like-minded. There are people in this country who have fled from Germany in the last four or five years and who know what Germany is like under Hitler. We have had them come to us and tell us their terrible story of the last few years, how terribly they were treated in Germany prior to escaping. Many of them speak excellent English. Many of them held responsible positions in the old German republic. People of this kind should be put on the air. Thomas Mann, the great German novelist who wrote "This Peace," was in New York a little time ago; I believe he is there still. He should be put on the air to talk to English-speaking Canadians and Canadian people of German extraction, to tell them what Hitler has done to the German people and the free institutions of Germany. People like Thomas Mann and his daughter, Erica, and many others living in this country or the United States have a message for people who think that Hitler is not a real menace. Anyone who thought that would be sadly disillusioned after hearing Thomas Mann and people of his type.
I think some good could be done by dramatizing these things over the radio. The Americans are probably the only people who use the radio effectively in the realm of drama. The English have not mastered the

Department of National 110/' Services
technique, nor have we done so in this country. Many good plays have been written within the last few years regarding the nazi regime and the menace of nazism. These plays could easily be adapted to the radio. Plenty of stock companies, such as the John Holden Company, are doing good work and might be willing to give their time once every two or three weeks to dramatizing these plays, so that the Canadian people may be told in dramatic form just what it would mean in this country to have a nazi regime. The same idea could be carried out through the movies; plays might be made available to amateur theatrical groups all across Canada. Anyone who has tried to get plays for amateur theatrical groups knows how difficult it is to procure them. If these plays could be secured through the department, an educational programme could be carried on right across the country.
In the same way we could carry on adult education. I suppose there is hardly a member or a teacher or a doctor or a minister of the gospel in any part of Canada who is not asked at some time or other, perhaps once a month, to speak to a service club or other organization with reference to the war. It is not always easy to have recess to material that is interesting and refreshing. Speakers' notes could be sent out to teachers, clergymen and others in the habit of public speaking, making suggestions, giving them ideas and accurate data which they could use in speaking to service clubs and other organizations, and to school children. This would help to build up across Canada a democratic front and a consciousness of the issues that are at stake in the great war that is being fought to-day. There are many organizations in Canada which would be willing to sponsor oratorical contests for high school students, as the Imperial Order of the Daughters of the Empire does; farm groups, community clubs and other organizations would very likely sponsor oratorical contests. Speeches could be set which would make it necessary for the contestants to study along particular lines, and once they get to studying at home it is not long before they get their parents helping them. People who came to these oratorical contests would hear the subject discussed from a new angle, and thus we would be helping to build up in the community a new concept. I think this is tremendously important.
Circulating libraries could be set up, but I am not suggesting that they be set up necessarily by the department. The department could encourage in each province the idea of circulating libraries which would send out suitable books showing what nazism and 95826-100
fascism mean and the comparable benefits of democracy, stating the issues that are actually being settled in Europe to-day-and probably at some time may be settled on this continent. I do not think it is too much to say that a nation is only as strong as its morale; the moment any nation comes to the place where it does not know what it believes in, or what it is fighting for, where it does not know the things that are worth preserving and those that are not, that nation is finished as a great nation. There is room in this country for a man with courage and daring and vision to fire the imagination of the Canadian people and to rally them around the war effort of Canada.
The Prime Minister said that democracy depends upon the spontaneous support of informed public opinion. That is true. I assume the minister will have something to do with the dispensing of news. It is important that the Canadian people shall know that they are as fully informed as it is possible for them to be without actually giving them military secrets, and that they are not being fed with half-truths. Correspondents returning from Paris have all said the same thing, namely, that the French people did not know what was going on until the calamity was already upon them. The Canadian people do not want that; they want to know the truth even though it hurts. Even though the news is bad they want to know it. They do not want to be kept in a fairyland; they are grown-up enough to be told when things are not going well.
Under this legislation the minister-designate will have the carrying out of some of the objectives of the National Resources Mobilization Act. I should like to know later on to what extent the mobilization of industry will come within his jurisdiction, because I want to say to the Prime Minister particularly that it is not enough to mobilize voluntary effort, it is not enough to mobilize manpower; aggressive steps will have to be taken to mobilize industry if the Canadian people are to be rallied whole-heartedly behind the war effort. The day is past when the public can be got to work hard for nothing if they think that there is a small select group who are getting large salaries or huge profits out of the war. And there is nothing that would rally the Canadian people more wholeheartedly behind what the government is trying to do than informing them that the mobilization of industry is going on apace with the mobilization of man-power and voluntary effort.
There has taken place in Great Britain in the course of the last few months what some writers have called a veritable miracle.

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Prior to that time the British people were working hard, but it was like a tug-of-war team in which the men were not pulling in unison. During the last few months they have been pulling together. It has amazed everyone. They have doubled aircraft production; they overcame obstacles which up to that time had been holding them back. And there is a good reason for it: the British people have become convinced that every man on the team is now pulling his weight, the rich as well as the poor, the great as well as the common man. It has put new enthusiasm into the people and given new meaning to their effort. The same thing can be done in Canada. The Canadian people are willing and anxious to do their share, but they want to know that every other man in Canada, be he great or small, is also being compelled to pull his weight in this grave hour.


James Garfield Gardiner: In view of the fact that the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) has come back into the house, and because he asked me to say a word or two before the bill has its second reading-


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the minister would prefer to do it in committee, that would be satisfactory.


James Garfield Gardiner: I was just going to say that I think the particular matter of which the leader of the opposition spoke could be better dealt with when we are considering the sections of the bill in committee.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to.
On section 4-Duty of minister.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Would the minister give the committee some information as to what he proposes to do under this section?


James Garfield Gardiner: Let us look at the preamble to the bill, which states:
Whereas by reason of developments since the outbreak of the present war a special emergency has arisen and the national safety of Canada has become endangered, and
Whereas The National Resources Mobilization Act, 1940 provides for the mobilization of all the effective resources of the nation, both human and material, for the purpose of the defence and security of Canada, and
Whereas it is expedient to create a Department of National War Services to assist in oarrying out the purposes of The National Resources Mobilization Act, 1940 and for the other purposes of this act;

That states the general purposes as definitely as they can be stated. Then section 4 reads:
It shall be the duty of the minister to assist in carrying out the objects of the National Resources Mobilization Act, 1940.
I take this to mean that the minister must do everything it is possible for him to do in helping towards the ends outlined in the preamble.
Section 6 provides:
The minister may perform such other duties as may be assigned to him from time to time by the governor in council, and he shall have all powers necessary to carry out the provisions of this act and of any orders or regulations made hereunder.
I assume it will be my duty to examine into conditions as they exist in Canada in relation to both human and material as they affect our war effort, to make recommendations to council from time to time as to what I think might be or ought to be done either by this department or by other departments of government; and if the government feel it is in the interest of Canada that such things should be done as a special duty under this department, they will no doubt pass an order in council making that possible. If they feel certain things should be done under some other department, they will be taken up by the other department.
Section 5 sets out certain definite matters that we are already practically instructed to undertake and do immediately the department is set up.


Grote Stirling: Would the minister
explain paragraph (b) of section 5?


James Garfield Gardiner: When we come to that.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Before section 4 is carried, I wish to protest against the way in which the assistance of the members has been asked, at least as far as I am concerned, in connection with carrying out the registrations under this measure. On Tuesday evening about five o'clock we received in our mailbox a letter from the minister (Mr. Gardiner) asking our assistance in appointing registrars and assistant registrars in our constituencies. So far as members living near Ottawa are concerned, it might be possible to make recommendations in the time allowed. We received the letter on Tuesday evening, and we were instructed to have our replies in the hands of the minister by Thursday evening. So far as the western members are concerned-


An hon. MEMBER:: It was Saturday.

Department of National War Services


Angus MacInnis: No; Thursday evening was stated in my letter. It is absolutely impossible even by air mail to send a letter to Vancouver and get a reply in forty-eight hours; that is, all the time would be taken up in travelling and the delivery of the letter.
The appointment of persons to fill such positions I regard as of considerable importance and one that could not be made without a good deal of deliberation. Furthermore, it is a thing that could not be done on a partisan basis. I could not say to certain people in my political organization that they were appointed to do this work. I would not do that under the circumstances because it is a matter altogether apart from political considerations. Consequently, if the department is going to ask, and if it expects to receive, the assistance of members, we should be given sufficient time to enable us to act with deliberation in the circumstances. Although we received the letters on Tuesday evening, on Wednesday morning one of the deputy ministers was here, brought all the way from Saskatchewan. Therefore we must conclude that arrangements for the registrations had been under consideration for some time. I hope that if members are asked for assistance in the future, we shall be given more time so that we can attend properly to the work that is required of us.


James Garfield Gardiner: May I first give a word of explanation in answer to the criticism of the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis). The letters were sent on Tuesday to all members of the house and later that evening, after discussion with members of different groups, I arranged to have the designated deputy appear in the committee room on Wednesday morning to meet all members who cared to be there and to give them any information he might have with regard to the general workings of the plan we had in mind. On that occasion I was asked by members to give a longer time for the choosing of the registrar and the assistant registrar. Those who were present will remember that request came at the time from those closest to Ottawa, the reason being that they were going home over the week-end and could better deal with the matter if they were allowed to go home. I stated then that so far as those of us who were farthest away were concerned-and that applies more particularly to the hon. member who has just spoken than to others, except those from Victoria- they would be required to bring about whatever discussion was involved in their areas either by telegram or telephone or air mail, and therefore they would require at least as much time as anyone who was living near. I 95826-100J
did suggest that if most of those who were near would try to get their information in by Thursday night we could allow more time to the others, and we did allow another two days, which allows to Saturday evening.
Let me express my appreciation and that of Mr. Justice Davis to hon. members who have functioned so efficiently in that regard. Last night most of the names were in our possession, and I understand that we shall have them all before to-morrow night, unless there is the one exception. I do not know whether the hon. member (Mr. Maclnnis) will be able to get his in by that time, but I hope so, because every day of delay after Saturday night will mean one more day that we shall have to wait before making the registration. For that reason we should like every effort to be put forth by those who have not sent in their names-perhaps I should say the few who have not sent them in-to have them in by to-morrow evening.
I think I can give the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson) as well as other members of the committee the information which is desired, in the shortest time if I read at least a part of a letter which is going out to the judges across Canada in relation to this undertaking, because in that letter a general explanation is given of the whole plan, and it would be well to have it placed on Hansard, so that all members can read it. I quote:
The boundaries of the registration unit will be co-terminus, or as nearly co-terminus as possible, with the boundaries of polling subdivisions in each federal constituency in the election held in March last. All persons above the age of sixteen must register. The registration will go on for three or four days. When completed, the registrar in the local polling booth will extract the cards of all male persons between the ages of twenty-one and forty-five and will make copies thereof.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Should it not state, twenty-one on a certain date?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. That is provided for in the regulations. That will be made clear. I believe the age is that as of the day the registration will start.
All the original cards will be sent by the deputy registrar in the poll to the registrar, whose position corresponds to that of a returning officer in a dominion election. The registrar sends all these original cards to the bureau of statistics at Ottawa. There is therefore left in the province the copies of the cards of single men between the above ages. The deputy registrar sends these copies in a separate bundle to the registrar for the constituency and the registrar therefore will have in his possession the cards of all single men in the constituency between the said ages.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I ask my colleague to allow me to interrupt him for a minute to point out that, according to the rule,
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if at the hour of six o'clock p.m. the business of the house is not concluded the Speaker leaves the chair until eight o'clock. As hon. members are aware, the deputy of the governor general is coming some time this evening-it may be quite late-to give assent to the bill passed yesterday appointing a Minister of National Defence for Naval Services. The government would like very much, if it could be so arranged, to have this bill also assented to at the same time. It would mean that we should not have to have a second assent next week, and it would enable the two ministers, the Minister of National Defence for Air and the Minister of National War Services, to be both sworn in to-night. I have arranged with His Excellency the Governor General to have that particular function performed as late as midnight if necessary. If it is agreeable to the house that we continue now, we should be able to conclude this bill in time to have it go to the other house and then arrange for an adjournment until half-past nine, at which time the bill in all probability would be back from the other house and the formal ceremony of assent could then take place.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Agreed.


James Garfield Gardiner: To continue:
It will be the duty of the judge in charge of the constituency to go through these cards and classify them into two groups, namely, those who could safely be called at once for military training in Canada and those who should not be called up because they are engaged in some vital war industry. It is not the intention to set up tribunals or to have this judge hear any viva voci evidence.
It is realized that we must work out some principles to guide the judge, because this is a matter of national policy. The national government must designate essential industries as against non-essential industries, and an attempt will be made to furnish the judge with a list thereof so that he will have this as a guide.
The judge, therefore, will have the card of the man under consideration, and also any written representations that his employer may see fit to make; and on the evidence before him he may determine the matter with regard to making divisions. Instructions to the registrars for the registration are going forward at once. The registration will take place some time about the middle of August. The present view is that probably August 19, which is a Monday, will be about as early as that registration can start. The judges actually will function a day or so after the registration is complete; and between now and then we shall have prepared, printed and distributed to the judges instructions as to what are considered essential and non-essential

services, and the principles to be followed and accepted. Naturally we shall be able to outline only broad principles, which the judge will have to apply to the individual case.
We have chosen the judges so that the people of Canada will be assured that an independent tribunal has dealt with each individual case and has classified the man as either immediate or postponed. In this way no undue, improper pressure can be brought by any person to have a man's name placed on the postponed list. As I have said, there: will be no exemptions except a few limited by law, and a person will always be subject to call. The question of when he will be called will depend upon whether his name is on the immediate or the postponed list.
After the local judge in the constituency has classified the cards in this way, all cards, with the report of the local judge, will go to the central judge, who will keep them in his possession. He will be called upon to check the cards and classify them into age groups; that is, twenty-one years old, twenty-two years old, and so on. He will therefore know how many young men there are in each province from twenty-one years up immediately available for military training.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this the married class?


James Garfield Gardiner: This is the unmarried class. He will also know the number of men of twenty-one and up in the province who are on the postponed list because they are engaged in vital services. When we are notified by the military authorities that a certain number of men are required-and it must be remembered that these men are required for military training, not for military service-then the central judge will go to his records and call up the requisite number from the twenty-one year old class in the immediate list, and will go on from year to year until the required number has been called up. I might explain that by saying that if in a district there are four thousand men of this class and the requirement is for only one thousand men, they will start at twenty-one and go to the age necessary in order to get the one thousand out of the four thousand.
The duties of the local judge in each constituency will terminate when his work is completed after the registration, but the position of the central or directing judge will be more or less continuous. Provision will have to be made to deal with cases of men who come of age after the registration, and this central judge also will have to deal with the calling up of men from time to time for

Department of National War Services
military training as their services are required. In every case under this set-up they are called for military training, not necessarily for service. It is our desire that as many as possible of the judges of the superior courts of Canada, or of the district courts, should be used, and that only when judges of this type are not available should we call upon the services of police magistrates. In some instances, in order to get the work done with sufficient speed, it may be necessary to call in the assistance of some of the police magistrates, but we hope to have the greater part of the work done by the judges.
I think that gives enough detail to answer the questions suggested by the leader of the opposition. If there are any other questions I shall be glad to attempt to answer them.


Robert William Gladstone: Will marriage now
transfer a single man to the married class?


James Garfield Gardiner: There is a provision in the regulations that if they are unmarried on July 15 they will be considered as unmarried men.


Angus MacInnis: I should like to add one further word in regard to the matter I have already mentioned. The minister said the names were coming in rapidly, and he hoped that my names would be given him in due course. When on Thursday evening I found that I could not make the recommendations, the very first thing the following morning I wrote the minister advising him that I had not time to make the recommendations for appointments which would have to be made by his department. I regretted having to do that. It was not because I did not want to assist the minister, but because I did not have time to make them. Again I protest against the way this thing was done.


James Garfield Gardiner: I can only say that
when I received that letter I acted upon it at once and sent word to Vancouver to consult all the groups in that constituency and try to make recommendations to us. I do not know whether those recommendations have come in as yet.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Will these
judges in the local constituencies be the sole arbiters, or will there be any consultative tribunal sitting in with them representing different groups in the community?


James Garfield Gardiner: As I tried to indicate,
the classifications probably will be decided in general terms by some tribunal and sent forward to each judge so that similar action will be taken in all constituencies across Canada.
The judge himself will have to determine, from what he knows of the individual according to his card which is filled out-


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Decide by
himself?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, by himself. He
will have to determine under which classification that man comes.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: But will there be tribunals set up?


James Garfield Gardiner: At the moment I do
not think so. I believe we shall depend upon the judges. We should like to leave it to the judicial authorities to make these decisions.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: If it should
be decided to set up tribunals, I think the people would want to see these tribunals representative. That is, in a labour centre some labour representative might sit in; in a farming community it might be the reeve of the municipality, or someone like that.


James Garfield Gardiner: There will be representation of that kind on the tribunal, if you wish to call it that, which will sit here in Ottawa in the first instance in order to determine how these classifications should be made.


Mr. ESLING:: Does the minister not think it would facilitate matters if he would make it quite clear that the national registration is totally independent and apart from section 64 of the Militia Act?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, it is entirely separate and apart from that.


William Kemble Esling: I think that should be made quite clear to the young men registering.


James Garfield Gardiner: Before the section
passes, I should like to say that I think an effort should be made by all of us who are members of this house to emphasize the fact that this is a registration of all the people of Canada. We have two purposes in mind, the first one being to get a complete picture of the condition existing with respect to manpower and woman-power in Canada to-day, with regard to where they are, their background and their condition of health. All information of that kind would be required, and it will be made available not only to the Department of National Defence but to all departments of government-old age pensions, health, and so on. This information can be used for different purposes in connection with the care of our population during a period of war, and perhaps afterwards.
The other purpose is the one which has been outlined, namely that of obtaining a
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registration of those who are available for training in Canada immediately and throughout the war period.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On Section 5-Powers of minister.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like some explanation respecting paragraph (a). I do not wish to delay the progress of the bill; I am merely concerned with the question whether the scheme can be carried through in anything like the time the minister has indicated. I know he wishes that the work be completed quickly and that it be well done. Under the present scheme pertaining to generaJl elections the work is well and quickly done. I should like some assurance that under this scheme of voluntary effort the work could be done in even twice the time the minister has in mind.


James Garfield Gardiner: One difficulty in following the method of enumeration is that someone must assume responsibility for the registration. This plan places the responsibility on the person who is to be registered. We say the individual must register within four days. We will estimate as nearly as we can, before it is definitely set down, what the number of days will be, but the time will be the time within which we believe we can do the job. This having been decided, it will be the duty of every individual in Canada from the age of sixteen upwards to register.
The procedure is somewhat different from that followed at election time, or even in respect of enumeration. If we were to send enumerators around to make the registrations the enumerator would be responsible for having secured or not having secured the names. I am afraid in some districts great difficulty would be experienced by the enumerator. When making a list it is not necessary to meet every individual. He finds the head of the household and lists the members of that household. But in this instance it will be necessary to see the person and to have a card filled out. A card will be given to the individual, and he or she may carry it. That is the proof that registration has been made.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Will not the individual have to go to a registration booth?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, under this plan. But under the other plan they would have to be found, and a much longer time would be required. We hope-and I believe that hope will be realized because of what hon. members have said to me individually, and from what I heard at the meeting the other morning- that we may be able to set up a fairly complete voluntary organization in every constituency. This would be somewhat along the
fMr. Gardiner.]
same basis, with possibly some slight variations, as that set out in the second letter I sent yesterday. May I say in fairness that the suggestion came first to me from one of the members of the opposition to the effect that in many constituencies, and particularly in city constituencies, where there are more in the polling divisions than there may be in rural constituencies, it might be necessary to have a certain type of individual working in an honorary capacity and on a voluntary basis to get this job done.
I do not see anything impossible in connection with the procedure of having one man in charge of a registration booth for, let us say six hours of the day, and a second man in charge for a second six hours of the day, thereby making it possible to have the booth open twelve or even more hours in a day. They are paid because they are the supervisors, and they will receive an amount which has not yet been settled-possibly $2.50 or $3. The amount will not be more than sufficient to pay for their meals, because most of them will have to be away from their homes throughout the whole of the day they are acting.
Then, the other work can be done by voluntary workers. There is no reason why there should not be a half-dozen tables in one booth, under the direction of one person, thus making it possible to register a greater number of persons in a poll of the size indicated a few minutes ago by the hon. member for Davenport.
One other point ought to be understood in connection with this voluntary organization. We hope to be able to indicate to the people in different polling divisions-and perhaps this would apply more to the country than to the city, although to a certain degree it will apply to the city-that if they all come in in one day, or even a great majority of them, it would not be possible to carry out their registration. For instance, if all decided to come on the last day, registration would be very difficult. It is a four-day job. We hope under the voluntary arrangement to go through the process of dividing the poll in one of two possible ways, either by asking all people whose names begin with a certain letter to turn out on a certain day, or by dividing it as to territoiy, in which event we would require all the people in a certain territory to come to the booth on the same day. Then we would put forth an appeal, through voluntary committees, to get persons who had found it difficult, through lack of transportation, to visit the booth, to come to the poll and register. We think that by encouraging voluntary effort of this kind we can make this succeed.

Department oj National War Services
We think too, that it is only by stirring up the idea that this registration ought to be made, and that Canada needs it, and by inducing people to come out and to give their services, the registration can be properly made. We hope to bring about the necessary publicity and put out the necessary information to induce people to come and do that job. I think we will be successful in registering all the names in the four-day period for which we have provided at the present time.


Mr. HANSELL:: I have been more particularly interested in the minister's concluding observations. Some of the constituencies are rural. In my own constituency there are only one or two fairly large towns, and even these would not have populations of 4,000 people. The registration is to be done at a time of the year when it will be difficult to obtain voluntary workers, because in rural communities the farmers will be engaged in their work.
I make this suggestion: through the medium of the press a good deal of information and many requests for voluntary assistance could be made. I believe the newspapers would do a great deal towards inducing people to volunteer their services if they were to allot to the minister a certain amount of advertising space and give him an opportunity of inserting display advertisements, at the bottom of which could be inserted the sentence, "This space donated by"

and then would follow the name of the newspaper. The people would then know that certain services were being donated toward the carrying out of this work, and they would be ready to follow suit.
The hon. member for Acadia (Mr. Quelch) has just whispered a suggestion to me. Perhaps the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation would donate certain time on the air, as well as the local stations. The minister, or even the Prime Minister, and the leaders of the other parties, could speak over the air and urge the people to get behind this registration. It could also be announced over the air that the time being used had been donated by the local station. Of course we must get the broadcasting stations and the press to consent to this, but I think it would provide an inducement and incentive for people to volunteer their services.
Is this to be a national registration for military service?


James Garfield Gardiner: Military training, not
service.


Ernest George Hansell: But they are to be liable for military service.


James Garfield Gardiner: Only for military service in Canada for the defence of Canada; and that service would not necessarily be required under this act.


Ernest George Hansell: I hope we are not getting away from the spirit of voluntary service. I do not know whether the minister has before him a copy of the proposed registration form, but I was wondering if the person registering could not be asked what type of service he would like to give. There are a number of young men in my community who are interested in radio transmitting. I believe there is an organization of these amateurs in Canada. My hon. friend tells me they are called "hams." I see no reason why the knowledge of these amateurs could not be utilized. There may be medical students who would like to pursue their studies, and even a truck driver might want to offer his own particular type of service. I think this is something that should be considered. We must not create the impression that we are grabbing hold of these young chaps and pushing them into a certain- line of service. We should endeavour to show not only that we want the service the individual can render, but that we want it given in a way which will convince him that there is complete cooperation throughout the entire national service.


James Garfield Gardiner: I am sorry, but I have not the questionnaire before me. With regard to the first suggestion of my hon. friend in relation to newspapers, I am glad to say that most of the representatives of the press have asked from us copies of the questionnaire and have offered to publish it free of charge-to-morrow if we can have it ready. It is being printed at the present time, and the moment it is ready we intend to take advantage of that offer. In that way every one will see what it is and can prepare his answers before the time of registration. The questions are intended to get full information as to what an individual is capable of doing. He will be asked as to his training and previous experience. There will be many who have not had the opportunity of attending university to take an engineering course and who would like to take up engineering training. As I remember, there will be no effort to obtain information as to what line an individual might like to follow. The intention of the registration is to get full information which will make it possible to segregate the single men from twenty-one to forty-five years of age.
As far as military training is concerned, I would judge that all that could be done in six weeks' time would be to train a man in
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marching, handling a rifle, good discipline, how to act under command and all that kind of thing; it would be a general drill training.


Ernest George Hansell: I think that is good at
any time.


James Garfield Gardiner: That is about all that could be given in that period of time. However, I think this result will follow. As a result of this training, many of these young men will decide that they want to go into one of the services and will voluntarily offer themselves to that service. They will be able to enlist voluntarily in the militia or for overseas service. I do not think there will be any difficulty about finding out later on what a young man has in mind in connection with the line of training he would like to follow.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have a suggestion to
make which might speed up this registration. Instead of the two deputy registrars working only six hours a day, it might speed things up if the one would remain in the booth while the other was calling from door to door to tell people to come and register.


Angus MacInnis: Paragraph (c) refers to the coordinating of different forms of voluntary assistance. I have before me a letter which I received from the British Columbia teachers' federation. The secretary of this organization states that they have offered their services to the government, with particular reference to the summer vacation period. Will the government get in touch with this organization and will this offer be accepted? Perhaps they could be communicated with and told how they could best assist in this matter.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think it was mentioned in the letter sent out on Tuesday that we intended to make particular use of school teachers, secretaries of municipalities, those who had special qualifications in the way of accounting and clerical work, and all others who are willing to offer their services. The assistance of these people will be necessary if we are to make this registration in four days. I do not think any group will be more helpful, particularly in the rural districts, than our school teachers. We intend to make an appeal to them.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 7-Other organizations.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: This section reads:
The minister may establish national, provincial, or local councils, committees or boards and use existing organizations and agencies to assist him in carrying out the purposes of this act.
[Mr. Gardiner.}
Might I urge on the minister the need for making these councils and boards as representative as possible. The minister is making a good start in the matter of local councils, but steps should be taken to see that the different classes in the community are represented on the provincial and national councils. I think we have failed to recognize the fact that 85 per cent of our people are not judges or lawyers or members of parliament but industrial workers, farmers, street-sweepers, mechanics and so on, and they should be represented. Most of us who listened the other day to the Prime Minister reading the membership of the various war boards were dismayed to find that the great mass of the Canadian people who pay for the war and fight and send their sons to fight were not directly represented. These national and provincial councils that are to be set up should be representative of the great mass of the people.


James Garfield Gardiner: They will be representative of organizations such as labour organizations, for example, which have in fact already written and asked for representation on any committee that might be set up. There will be representation of farmers and of merchants, I presume, and of people engaged in industry generally. There will be representatives of women's organizations, and I should say at this moment that we owe a considerable debt to the group of women who have already made a registration of the woman-power of part of Canada and have listed between two and three hundred thousand women, together with much valuable information which probably will not be obtained through the questionnaires. We shall try to have all the organizations that are set up in connection with the administration of this measure as representative as possible of all the different groups of people in Canada. I am sure the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) will agree with me in this, however, that it would be impossible for us to have every type of labour organization in Canada represented. We shall have to take their main organization as representing them all. The same is true of farmers and other classes.


Mr. FAIR:: Is it the intention to select a
farmer locally or to have representatives of organized farmers on these councils and boards?


James Garfield Gardiner: It would depend on
what is to be done at the time. If it is some local matter that can be dealt with in the community, it may be that persons out there would be selected for that particular activity, but if we were taking action affecting farmers generally we would probably take one of the

Department of National War Services
higher officers of a farmers' organization. That would be the only way in which the matter could be dealt with.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
On section 10-Orders and regulations.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The regulations to be passed under this measure will be very important. While no provision is made for it, would it not be possible to have copies of the regulations sent out to the members when the house is not in session? The regulations would be tabled if the house was sitting.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I was going to ask somewhat the same question under the next section, and my colleague the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), remarks that he has already asked that question. This is a scheme of national service upon which is to be based a subsequent scheme, we expect, of military service, and I would think that provision should be made as was done in the mobilization bill to have the regulations distributed so that they will be a matter of wide public knowledge. I throw out that suggestion and leave it at that.


James Garfield Gardiner: While it is true that such a provision appeared in the mobilization bill, the draftsmen of the justice department were inclined to take strong exception to it. They said it was a poor principle to follow. I would point out that in connection with all the activities conducted under this legislation it will be absolutely essential in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, I would say, that the substance of every regulation which is made and every order in council which is passed be published in the press of Canada the next day, or very shortly thereafter, because this is a work that is going to be carried on actively among all the people of Canada during the whole period that the legislation is in operation, and it is essential that the people should know what is being done. I do not think it would be necessary to distribute the regulations to hon. members, because they would all get them through the press before copies could reach them in any other way.


Richard Burpee Hanson: At the risk of delaying the proceedings, I should like to know what was the objection which the draftsmen had.


Grote Stirling: It does not occur to me as fitting that members should have to rely for their information on the newspapers. We do not all keep private secretaries to clip all the papers in our neighbourhood.


James Garfield Gardiner: Hon. members can
absolutely rely upon our continuing to follow the practice that we have to date. We have already sent two letters to the members indicating how we should like them to help us and how they might geit others to help. We shall certainly keep the members fully informed because we want their full cooperation.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 11 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
On the preamble.
John Ritchie MacNicol: The hon. member for
Parry Sound (Mr. Slaght) when speaking implied that I had asked for a delay in the operation of this measure until November or December. I did not say any such thing as that. I never mentioned November or December. What I did say was that the bill might have been passed in June and that the registration could then have taken place while everyone was at home. I did say that perhaps it would be a little more difficult to make the registration in August than in June, but I certainly never suggested in any way whatsoever that it should be delayed until November or December. I am all for the registration, and all for getting it done.


[Stage Direction]
Preamble agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I would move that the house take recess to meet again at
9.30	p.m. If the bill is not back from the other house by then, the time might be occupied with ways and means resolutions, if that be agreeable to hon. members.


Grote Stirling: There will be about nine of us here.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We can take anything that is agreeable to hon. members.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think we ought to be asked to take ways and means.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I suggested ways and means as a means of occupying the time. However, we might adjourn till 9.30 p.m. and be prepared to receive the bill when it comes back from the other house. The time for assent to the bills will be announced at 9.30 p.m.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
At 6.41 p.m. the house took recess until
9.30	p.m.
[Stage Direction]
The Royal Assent
[Stage Direction]
After Recess
The house resumed at 9.30 p.m.
The sitting was suspended until 10.50 p.m.
And having resumed,
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I move that the house do not adjourn at eleven o'clock but that the sitting be suspended, the house to resume at the call of the chair. This motion is necessary in view of the rule that the house shall adjourn at eleven o'clock.
Motion agreed to and sitting suspended.
The house resumed at 11.25 p.m.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major A. R. Thompson, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the house went up to the Senate.
And having returned,
Mr. SPEAKER informed the house that the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bills:
An act to amend the Agricultural Products Cooperative Marketing Act, 1939.
An act respecting the Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company.
An act to assist in the alleviation of Unemployment and Agricultural Distress.
An act to amend the Department of National Defence Act.
An act respecting a Department of National War Services.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. CRERAR moved the adjournment of the house.
He said: On Monday we shall continue with the budget resolutions of the Minister of Finance. If we finish those we should be prepared to take up consideration of senate amendments to various bills, as appear on the order paper, and perhaps second reading of Bill No. 31, to amend the Soldier Settlement Act, and possibly Bill No. 73, respecting treachery. We should also like to get two additional departments into supply, Labour and the Department of the Secretary of State.
Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 11.43 p.m.
rMr. Mackenzie King 7
Monday, July 15, 1940