1940-06-12

QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	Did the government request Mr. Sherman, of the Dominion Foundry and Steel Company, of Hamilton, to come to Ottawa for the purpose of consulting him in regard to the ability of his company to produce armoured plate?
2.	If so, upon what date?
3.	Did he submit samples of armoured plate?
4.	If so, were these samples tested and approved by the government?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	On many occasions, the most recent being February 13, 1940.
3.	Dominion Foundries & Steel Co., Ltd., of which Mr. C. W. Sherman is president, had previously submitted samples to the dominion arsenals for ballistic testing only.
4.	The samples were tested. Approval of the government was not asked.


TWEED, ONT.-DOMINION GOVERNMENT LANDS AND BUILDINGS
Mr. STOKES:: 1.	Are any lots of land owned by the dominion government in the village of Tweed, Ontario? If so, how many?
2.	From whom were these lots purchased, on what date, and at what price?
3.	Are any buildings owned by the dominion government in the village of Tweed, Ontario? If so, how many?
4.	From whom w'ere these buildings purchased, on what date, and at what price?
5.	Are all government owned lots now being used by the government? If not, by whom, and on what terms?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1 and 2. Part of lot 49 on the east side of Victoria street including the buildings thereon was purchased from Wm. J. Grier on April 23, 1937, for $2,500. This property was later transferred to Miss Mary Quinn in exchange for another property considered to be a more suitable site for the proposed public building. Subsequently, upon the decision not to proceed with the construction of the public building under present conditions, the Quinn property was, upon the request of Miss Quinn, transferred back to her for the Grier property.
3.	Yes, a two-story brick building containing store and residence and a garage located on the Grier property.
4.	Answered by Nos. 1 and 2.
5.	The Grier property referred to in answer to queries Nos. 1 and 2 is not now being used by the government. The residence above store is occupied by squatter who has been notified to vacate. Garage used on authority of Miss Quinn by Mr. Frost who is vacating.


PARTRIDGE ISLAND, N.B., PUBLIC WORK
Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: 1.	Was a contract awarded the Saint John Drydock Company, or a subsidiary of this company, for work on Partridge island, Saint John, New Brunswick, this year?
2.	If so, what was the contract price?
3.	Was such contract awarded after public tenders had been called for?
4.	If not, were any firms asked to tender, and, if so, what were the names of these firms, and what were their respective tenders?
5.	If such a contract was awarded to the Saint John Drydock Company or a subsidiary of this company, did this company sub-let this contract, or any part of it? If so, what was
Questions

the name of the contractor, and, if only part of the contract was sub-let, how much of it was sub-let?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Contract awarded St. John Tug Boat Company, Ltd. of East St. John, N.B., for placing a new 4-inch bronze pipe water main between Fort Dufferin and Partridge Island at St. John Harbour, NJ3.
2.	$19,675.
3.	Yes.
4.	Answered by No. 3.
5.	No information


GASOLINE IMPORTS FROM THE UNITED STATES
Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1.	How much gasoline was imported from the United States into Canada during March, April, and May, 1940?
2.	What was the cost of exchange on this fuel?
3.	Why was the fuel not bought from the Alberta oil fields?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Imports from the United States of gasoline entered for consumption in Canada during the months of March and April, 1940.
Item
Gasoline lighter than -8236 sp.g. at 60 degrees temperature	
Gasoline, natural casinghead, compression or absorption gasoline, lighter than -6690 specific gravity at 60 degrees temperature, when imported by refiners of crude petroleum for blending with other gasolines wholly produced in Canada	
March		April	
Gal.	Value	Gal.	Value657,612	$65,839	2,839,621	S229,92i1,822,807	131,056	1,913,151	136,061
(Imports for the month of May, 1940, are not available.)
2.	The official selling rate of the Foreign Exchange Control Board for United States funds in the months of March, April and May, 1940, was $1.11.
3.	No information.
accident to lake steamer The Northumberland


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What was the cause of the accident on lake Ontario between Toronto and Port Dalhousie on June 1 to a lake steamer, The Northumberland, with 700 passengers aboard?
2.	Will an inquiry be held?
3.	Will a copy of the said findings or report be tabled?
4.	Is the government considering a better and more modern steamer for this heavy traffic?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Captain reports vessel touched bottom, without damage, in dense fog and rain.
2.	Matter under consideration.
3.	See answer No. 2.
4.	No; S.S. Northumberland owned and operated by the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Navigation Company, Limited.


SALMO, B.C., LANDING FIELD
Mr. ESLING:: 1.	What is the acreage of the Salmo landing field in British Columbia?

2.	What price was paid for this?
3.	What is the width and length of the runway?
4.	In addition to the cost of the land, what expenditures, to date, have been made in the construction of the field?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Eighty-four (84) acres.
2.	$1,644.
3.	600 feet by 3,000 feet.
4.	$66,418.39 was expended on stumping, grading, smoothing, seeding, fencing and erection of boundary and airport markers.


QUEBEC AGRICULTURAL FAIRS-DOMINION GRANTS
Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	Did any agricultural fairs in the province of Quebec receive grants from the dominion Department of Agriculture during the year 1939?
2.	If so, what fairs?
3.	What respective amounts were granted to each?
4.	Will the same amounts be granted to these fairs in 1940?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.

Questions
2.	Class "A"
Lachute Spring Show, Laehute, P.Q	
Canada's Great Eastern Exhibition, Sherbrooke, P.Q	
Agricultural Society of District of St.
Hyacinthe, St. Hyacinthe, P.Q	
Three Rivers Exhibition Association, Three
Rivers, P.Q	
Valleyfield Exhibition, Valleyfield, P.Q	
Provincial
Ormstown Spring Show, Ormstown, P.Q	
Provincial Exhibition of Quebec, Quebec, P.Q. Canada's Great Eastern Winter Fair, Sherbrooke, P.Q	
Class " B "
Stanstead County Exhibition, Ayer's Cliff, P.Q. Brome County Agricultural Society, Brome,
P.Q	
Compton County Agricultural Fair, Cookshire, P.Q	
Quebec Regional Exhibition, Quebec, P.Q. .. Rimouski Agricultural Exhibition, Rimouski,
P.Q	
Roberval Agricultural Society, Roberval, P.Q. Ste. Scholastique Exhibition, Ste. Scholastique,
P.Q	
Shefford County Agricultural Exhibition, Waterloo, P.Q	
General	Building	
Grants	Grants	Total$ 3,727 15	S 1,500 00	$ 5,227 154,000 00	5,000 00	9,000 003,980 24	3,980 243,995 00	3,995 003,790 00	2,500 00	6,290 004,847 48	3,000 00	7,847 485,000 00	15,000 00	20,000 005,000 00	5,000 002,295 00	250 00	2,545 002,148 00	2,148 002,407 50	1,500 00	3,907 502,000 00	2,000 002,500 00	2,500 002,454 00	500 00	2,954 002,200 00	750 00	2,950 002,359 99	3,500 00	5.859 99
Building
Miscellaneous	Grants
Bedford Agricultural Society Fair,
Bedford, P.Q	   $1,000	00
Havelock Fair, Hemmingford, P.Q. 400	00
Huntington Agricultural Society,
Huntingdon', P.Q	 500	00
Matane Agricultural Society Fair,
Matane, P.Q	 500	00
LaSarre Agricultural Society Fair,
Mecamic, P.Q	 500	00
Montmagny Agricultural Society
Fair, Montmagny, P.Q	 500	00
Plessisville Agricultural Society Fair,
Plessisville, P.Q	 500	00
Richmond Agricultural Society,
Richmond, P.Q	 1,000	00
Soulanges Agricultural Society Fair,
Soulanges, P.Q	 300	00
Vaudreuil Co. Agricultural Society
Fair, St. Lazare, P.Q	 300	00
St. Leonard Exhibition, St. Leonard,
P.Q	
500	00Kamouraska Co. Agricultural Society Fair, St. Pascal, P.Q	500	00
Building
Miscellaneous	Grants
Victoriaville Agricultural Society
Fair, Victoriaville, P.Q	 1,000	00
Shawville Agricultural Society,
Shawville, P.Q	
500	00Notre-Dame des Anges Agricultural Society, Montauban	P.O., P.Q. .	250	00
Pont Rouge Agricultural Society,
Pont Rouge, P.Q	 400	00
St. Casimir Agricultural Society,
St. Casimir, P.Q	 400	00
St. Jean Agricultural Society Fair,
St. Jean, P.Q	 1,000	00
Agricultural Society of Bonaventure Co., Div. B., St. Jules de Maria,
P.Q	 250	00
3.	Included in answer 2.
4.	No. One grant only is provided for, namely building grant of $15,000 to the Provincial Exhibition of Quebec, Quebec, P.Q,, to cover previous commitment.
Questions


BREN GUN CARRIERS
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	Have orders been placed for Bren gun carriers?
2.	If so, when, and on what terms?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	No, but contracts have been placed for a quantity of a Universal carrier, which is a development of the Bren gun carrier.
2.	May 31. It is not in the public interest to disclose terms or particulars.


WAR CHARITIES-SPECIAL APPEALS FOR FUNDS
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	How many special appeals for funds have been made since September 1, 1939, in Canada, apart from the government, by such organizations as the Red Cross, Y.M.C.A., Canadian Legion, etc.?
2.	What are the official names of such organizations, and what is the address of each?
3.	Are such appeals made under government supervision, and by what method is such supervision carried on?
4.	Does the government receive an official auditor's financial report of such organizations?
5.	If so, are such auditors' financial reports available to members of the House of Commons?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	There have been many appeals of various kinds made by organizations with funds registered under the War Charities Act since the 13th day of September, 1939, being the day upon which the said act received the royal assent. If by "special appeals" is meant dominion-wide organized campaigns for money, then the answer is that each of the organizations named in the answer to question No. 2 has made one such appeal.
2.	The Canadian Red Cross Society Fund, 621 Jarvis St., Toronto 5, Ontario; Canadian Legion War Services Fund, 158 Sparks St., Ottawa; Knights of Columbus Canadian Army Huts Fund, 161 Holmwood Ave., Ottawa; The Salvation Army Red Shield War Services Fund, 306 Drummond Bldg., Montreal, P.Q.; Canadian Y.M.C.A.'s War Services Fund, 215 St. James Street West, Montreal, P.Q.
3.	Such appeals are made under the provisions of the War Charities Act and regulations made pursuant to section 8 thereof, and subject to such supervision as is provided for in the said Act and regulations.
4.	The government is entitled, under the said regulations, to receive an audited annual statement from each of said organizations. Many organizations have already filed audited statements pursuant to said regulations.
5.	All such financial statements are filed in the Department of the Secretary of State and are open to inspection.


IMMIGRATION INTO CANADA
Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	What number of immigrants entered Canada in the years 1938, 1939, and 1940?
2.	What is the country of origin of the said parties ?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	Fiscal year ended March 31, 1938, 15,645; Fiscal year ended March 31, 1939, 17,128; Fiscal year ended March 31, 1940, 16,205.
2.	Fiscal Years
Country of Birth 1937-38		1938-39 1939-40	
Aden				1
Africa, British	. 33	20	40Africa, not British .. .	. 2	3	1Albania	. 9	8	4Arabia	. 1	1Argentine	. 5	2	12Armenia	. 1	2	1Asia	
Atlantic Ocean Islands,	. 3	British	2Australia	. 37	30	66Austria	. 67	72	91Barbados	. 11	8	10Bahamas	. 5	5	7Belgium	. 156	220	139Bermuda	. 7	6	10Brazil	. 9	6	3Bulgaria	. 26	17	12Canada	. 568	633	542Central America .. .	. 5	7	1Chili	1	2China	42	44Columbia	13Cuba	. 4	10	4Czecho-Slovakia	. 1,601	1,962	1,640Danzig	. 1	2	2Denmark	. 46	47	72Dutch East Indies .. .	2Egypt	. 6	1	6England	. 1,625	1,985	2,299Esthonia	. 2	9	4Finland	. 110	58	60France	. 100	123	127Germany	. 208	344	688Greece	. 117	137	110Guiana, British	. 1	4	3Haiti	1	Hawaiian Islands	2	4Holland	. 71	160	237Honduras, British .. .	. 2	Hong Kong	. 3	8	4Hungary	.. 461	390	384Iceland	. 5	2	India, British	.. 51	56	63Iraq	1Ireland, Free State .. , * 566 of the total were	.. 139 147 of Jewish race.	143
Questions
Fiscal Years
Country of Birth 1937-38	1938-39	1939-40Ireland, Northern	196	209	168Italy	427	382	218Jamaica	11	9	17Japan 	154	62	67Jugo-Slavia	681	681	220Java	6	1Korea	2	4Latvia	13	13	14Lesser British Isles .. ..	6	15	14Lithuania	55	61	96Luxembourg	3	1Madeira	1Malta	1	6	Mexico	61	136	58Newfoundland	606	491	516New Zealand	11	22	26N orway	46	26	56Pacific Islands, British ..	2	Pacific Islands, not British	2	2Palestine	7	16	14Paraguay	4	. .Persia	2	4Peru	13	8	3Poland	2.145	2,666	2,381Porto Rico	1	4Portugal	3	1Philippine Islands .. ..	5	1	Roumania	331	346	151Russia	94	98	96St. Pierre and Miquelon	7	4	3Scotland	656	686	672Siam	1	1South America	4	1Spain	8	2	15Straits Settlements .	4	5	5Sweden	36	23	27Switzerland	157	129	81Syria	20	19	17Trinidad	4	3	9Turkey	10	8	4Ukraine	2	1	1United States	4,246	4,364	4,271Venezuela	4	2Whales 	75	79	100West Indies, British ..	6	5	5West Indies, not British	2Other Countries, not British .. ..	2	Other European Countries	1	Born at Sea	3	1	1
Totals 15,645 17,128 16,205


AGRICULTURAL INSPECTORS IN SASKATCHEWAN,
Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	How many inspectors, senior, junior or otherwise described, were employed by the federal government Department of Agriculture, in the province of Saskatchewan, for the year 95826-45
1939, in each of the following branches: (a) dairy products; (b) fruits and vegetable products; (c) live stock and poultry; (d) health of animals; (e) plant inspection; (f) seed, feed and fertilizer control; (g) experimental farms; (h) entomology; (i) prairie farm rehabilitation; (j) Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939?
2.	What were the total salaries paid to the inspectors in each branch?
3.	What were the total travelling and other expenses paid to the inspectors in each branch?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1	2	3(a)	Dairy products	1	S 1,680 00 $ 1,222 75	(b)	Fruit and vege-	table products.	2	3,660 00	627 98(c)	Live stock and	poultry 	19*	16,164 78	12,343 88(d)	Health of	animals	51	100,662 42	19,830 90(e)	Plant inspection	4	6,615 00	1,873 00(f)	Seed, feed and	Fertilizer Con-	trol 	13	18,302 08	10.945 05(g)	Experimental	Farms 	Nil	-	-(h)	Entomology ...	Nil	-	-(i)	Prairie Farm	Rehabilitation	Nil	-	-(i)	Prairie Farm	Assistance Act,	1939 	:	163	56,510 00	67,507 45
* While the headquarters of two of these inspectors is located in Saskatchewan, only part of their time is spent in that province, their district being the three prairie provinces.


CHATHAM, ONT., MACHINE GUN UNIT
Mr. DESMOND:: 1.	Is there a machine gun unit in Chatham, Ontario?
2.	If so, are they fully equipped with machine guns?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	It is not in the public interest that the answer to this question should be published.


BORDER CITIES MILITIA AND HOME GUARDS
Mr. DESMOND:: 1.	Has the government ordered a home guard defence service in the border cities of western Ontario?
2.	Since the departure of Essex Scottish regiment, has another militia unit been established in the border cities?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	The formation of a veterans' home guard unit has been authorized in western Ontario.
2.	Since the departure of the Essex Scottish regiment, personnel of another militia unit in Windsor have been called out.

Questions


MUNICIPAL HOME GUARDS
Mr. DESMOND:: 1.	Have municipalities authority to form "home guards''?
2.	Will the Department of National Defence furnish municipal home guards with rifles and ammunition ?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	In the sense that "home guards" are to be a corps of the militia, municipalities have no authority to form the same. A militia corps can be formed only by or under the authority of the governor in council.
2.	It is not the policy of the Department of National Defence to issue arms and ammunition to other than organized defence forces.
wheat BOARD ACT-INTERIM PAYMENT ON
1939 crop


Mr. FAIR:: Is it the intention of the government to amend the Wheat Board Act as recommended by the Minister of Agriculture, and make an interim payment on the 1939 wheat crop?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: I
should like to be able to give my hon. friend a more complete answer, but at the moment I can only say that this is a matter of government policy which will be considered in due course.


TABLING OF DEPARTMENTAL ANNUAL REPORTS
Mr. MARSHALL:: Is it the intention of the government to table during the present session of parliament copies of the Auditor General's reports and those covering the various government departments for the year ending March 31, 1940?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: The departmental annual reports for the year ended 31st March, 1940, including the auditor general's reports, will be tabled during the course of the present session if they are completed and printed before the termination of the session.


BOARD OF TRANSPORT COMMISSIONERS- AGREED CHARGES
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	How many "agreed charges" under the provisions of part V of the Transport Act, 1938, have been approved by the board of transport commissioners, since the act came into force?
2.	How many of such applications were refused?


Mr. HOWE:: Eight " agreed charges " have been presented to the board of transport commissioners; six have been approved; two are pending; none refused.

. PUBLIC WORKS-EXPENDITURES ON PUBLIC BUILDINGS


Mr. MARSHALL:: 1.	What is the contract price for the erection of each of the following buildings: (a) Qiiebec postal terminal; (b) Toronto postal terminal; (c) supreme court building?
2.	What amounts have been spent on each of these projects to March 31, 1940?
3.	Is it the intention of the government to finish these buildings now?
4.	If work has been stopped temporarily or for the duration of the war, what recompense will be made to contractors in each case?


Mr. CARDIN:: 
TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES-USE OF AIRCRAFT AND PERSONNEL FOR WAR PURPOSES
Mr. JACKMAN:: 1.	Are the aircraft in use by the Trans-Canada Air Lines suitable, with minor modifications, for use in war?
2.	If so, have they been offered to Great Britain in the present emergency? If not, why?
3.	Has the flying personnel and ground personnel of the Trans-Canada Air Lines been given an opportunity to enlist as a unit for overseas service ?


Mr. HOWE:: 1. Major structural alterations would be required to make the aircraft used by Trans-Canada Air Lines suitable for military use.
2 and 3. The maintenance of high speed air passenger, mail and express services are considered essential to Canada's war effort. Protection was, therefore, given to this service against undue depletion of their staff by order in council P.C. 2525, dated 5th September, 1939. A number of the staff members of the R.A.F. or R.C.A.F. reserves have been released.


DEPENDENTS' ALLOWANCE BOARD-PERSONNEL
Mr. NEILL:: 1. Who are the present members of the dependents' allowance board?
2.	What positions did they hold prior to their appointments to the said board?
3.	What remuneration does each receive: (a) salary; (b) living allowance?
4. How many people are presently in the employ of the board?


Mr. POWER:: 1, 2, and 3, answered by the minister on pages 139 and 140. Hansard, May 23. 1940.
4.	169.

Questions


USED AUTOMOBILE PARTS AND SCRAPIRON- IMPORTATIONS
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	What was the value of used automobile parts imported into Canada from the United States during (a) each of the calendar years 1936 to 1939, inclusive; (b) each of the months from January to May, 1940, inclusive?
2.	What was the quantity and value of importations of scrapiron into Canada from the United States during (a) each of the calendar years 1936 to 1939, inclusive; (b) each of the months from January to May, 1940, inclusive?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	No figures available, as used parts are included under general classification " automobile parts."
2.	Imports from the United States of scrap-iron entered for consumption in Canada during the calendar years 1936 to 1939, and the months January to April, 1940.
			Ton	Value
Calendar	year	1936.. ..	63,413	$ 488,799u	"	1937.. ..	171,236	2,025,082"	a	1938.. ..	96,678	829,024"	u	1939.. ..	177,771	2,057,184January,	1940	8,798	89,785February	il	6,930	67,984March	u	12,193	113,704April	u	18,301	193,155Imports available.	for	the month	of May,	1940, not


WAR PURCHASING BOARD-W. R. CAMPBELL
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	On what date was Mr. W. R. Campbell appointed chairman of the war purchasing board?
2.	On what date did he relinquish this post?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	September 20, 1939.
2.	April 10, 1940.


VOLUNTARY REGISTRATION OF CANADIAN WOMEN
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	Has the government contributed any money towards the voluntary registration of Canadian women which commenced in 1939?
2.	If so, how much?
3.	Is the government cooperating in connection with the above-mentioned registration?
4.	If so, in what way?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	No grant or other monetary contribution has been made by the government of Canada to the national committee for the voluntary registration of Canadian women to carry out its survey.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	After the formation of the voluntary service registration bureau, arrangements were made with the national committee to transfer to the bureau a copy of the records relating to women coming within certain specialized categories. The special record cards used for this duplicate register are being paid for by the voluntary service registration bureau.
4.	The transfer of the records is presently under way. When it has been completed the attention of departments, boards and agencies of government will be drawn to the existence of this special register of Canadian women in order that effective use may be made of it.


NATIONAL DEFENCE-WEYBURN BARRACKS
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What was the cost to the Canadian government of the alterations made in the International Harvester building at Weyburn, Saskatchewan, in order to convert it into a barracks for the South Saskatchewan regiment?
2.	What is the rent paid per month by the government to the International Harvester Company for the use of this building?
3.	What is the total amount of rent that has been paid to date?
4.	Is it the intention of the government to discontinue the use of this barracks for the training of Canadian troops?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	$7,867.95.
2.	$560.
3.	$5,040, until 31st May, 1940.
4.	This is under consideration.


FARMERS CREDITORS ARRANGEMENT ACT-POWERS OF BOARDS OF REVIEW
Mr. TUCKER:: .1. Has the attention of the Minister of Finance been drawn to the recent decision of the Court of Appeal for Saskatchewan in the case on Prudential Insurance Company, of America, versus Emil and Ora Berg et al?
2. Will arrangements be made to carry an appeal from said decision to the Supreme Court of Canada or in the alternative will consideration be given to amending the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, specifically granting boards of review power to postpone payments due under their proposals on the debtor obtaining a certificate of crop failure from some responsible official?	.


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	This question relates to a matter of policy and it is not usual for the government to make statements on matters of policy in giving replies to questions.
70S
Questions


COAL PRODUCTION AND IMPORTATIONS
Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What is the value of coal produced in Canada each year from 1929 to 1939, inclusive?
2.	What is the value of coal produced in Canada during the period from September 1, 1939, to May 31, 1940?
3.	What is the value of coal purchased from:
(a)	the United States of America, and (b) other countries, each year from 1929 to 1939, inclusive ?
4.	What is the value of coal purchased from: (a) the United States of America, and (b) Other countries from September 1, 1939, to May 31, 1940?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1. Value of the output from Canadian coal mines, 1929-39:
Year	Value
1929		.. $63,065,170
1930		.. 52,849,748
1931		.. 41,207,682
1932		.. 37,117,695
1933		.. 35,923,962
1934		.. 42,045,942
1935		.. 41,963,110
1936		.. 45,791.934
1937		.. 48,752,048
1938		.. 43,982,171
1939 (preliminary)		.. 48,258,199
2. Value of coal produced	in Canada for
the period September 1, 1939, to March 31, 1940,' 833,080,800.
Value of April and May production not yet available.
3 and 4. Imports of coal entered for consumption in Canada during periods specified:
	From	From other
Year	United States countries	
1929	.. $50,439,329	$5,573,9391930	.. 48.053,545	8,640,8211931	.. 31,500.919	5.328,4191932	.. 23,490,612	7.847,1971933	.. 19.110.276	9,011,9151934	.. 26,317,244	8,748,1361935	.. 24,703.624	8,627.6251936	.. 26,515.111	8,440,2791937	.. 30.587,340	7,571,2781938	.. 27.329,477	8,496,4371939	.. 33.284,251	8,294,434September, 1939	.. 6,644,720	1,076,191October, 1939 ..	.. 3,469,782	701,396November, 1939	.. 3.091,195	548.668December, 1939	.. 2,406.712	234.633January, 1940..	.. 2,895,051	87,563February, 1940..	.. 2,127,463	138,174March. 1940.. ..	.. 2.136.850	57,797April, 1940.. ..	.. 2,134.974	57.490
Imports for the month of May, 1940, not available.
[Mr. Ralston.1


OLD AGE PENSION-RECIPIENTS IN CANADA
Mr. SHAW:: 1.	How many citizens in Canada are in receipt of the old age pension?
2.	What proportion of the old age pension is paid by the federal government in each of the provinces?
3.	What were the total amounts paid by the federal government in old age pensions for each year since 1930?


Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	March 31, 1940-186,035.
2.	The dominion government paid to the
provinces 50 per cent of the amounts paid out by the provinces for old age pensions to October 31, 1931, excluding administration costs. Beginning November 1,	1931, the
dominion's share was increased to 75 per cent.
3. Fiscal year ended	Dominion's contribution for
March 31	old age pensions
1930		. .. S 1.537,173 55
1931		. .. 5,658,142 52
1932		. .. 10,032,409 87
1933		. .. 11.512,542 73
1934		. .. 12,313,594 93
1935		. .. 14.942,459 36
1936		. .. 16,764,483 87
1937		. .. 21,149.351 52
1938		. .. 28.524,5S7 23*
1939		. .. 28,283,284 11
1940		... 29,080,630 90
^Includes payments from August 1, 1936, for pensions granted in the province of Quebec during the fiscal year 1937-38.


NATIONAL HOUSING ACT LOANS
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	Under the provisions of the National Housing Act, 1938, how many loans have been made in accordance with (a) part one, (b) part two, (e) part three, of the said act, (1) in the dominion; (2) in the county of Peel?
2.	What is the total amount so loaned in each instance?


Mr. RALSTON:: (a). The National Housing Act, 1938, which repealed and reenacted the Dominion Housing Act with important amendments, was passed on July 1, 1938, but lending operations under the new act did not begin until about August 1, 1938.
Total loans made in Canada under part I of the National Housing Act, 1938, from August 1, 1938 to May 31, 1940, inclusive, number 8,066. These loans provide for the construction of 11,202 family housing units and amount to $35,550,974.
Loans made in Canada, under the National Housing Act, Part I, and its predecessor act

Questions as Orders lor Returns
in the period October, 1935 to May 31, 1940, total 11,437, providing 16,497 family housing units. These loans amount to $56,706,629.
Total loans made in the county of Peel under part I of the National Housing Act to May 31, 1940, number 38 and provide for the construction of 38 family housing units. These loans amount to $152,051.
Loans made in the county of Peel under the National Housing Act, part I, and its predecessor act in the period October 1935 to May 31, 1940, total 43, providing 43 family housing units. These loans amount to $169,339.
(b)	. None.
(c)	. Loans are not made under Part HI of the National Housing Act. This part provides for the payment of certain taxes on new low cost homes in accordance with the conditions set out in this part of the act.


EXPORTS OP DAIRY PRODUCTS
Mr. GRAYDON:: How many gallons of (a) milk, fb) cream, wTere exported to the United States from Canada in each month since January 1, 1939?


James Angus MacKinnon: Monthly Canadian exports of milk and cream to the United States from January, 1939, to May, 1940.
Milk Cream
Month	Gallons	Gallons
January, 1939 		... 248		
February 		... 248	-
March		... 408		
April 		... 144		
May 	... 272	-June 	... 232	4July	... 264	-August 	September 	... 352	October 	... 288	November 	... 256	December 	... 224	__January, 1940 	... 229	February 	... 244	March	... 162	April 	... 232	May 	... 402	4QUESTIONS PASSED	AS ORDERS FOR


RETURNS
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: How many officers, non-commissioned officers and men of all ranks will be taken on under the proposed expansion plan of the Canadian Navy announced on May 21?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.


CANADIAN NAVY-AGE REQUIREMENTS, PAY AND ALLOWANCES
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	What are the age requirements for entry in the navy for the various ranks?
2.	What are the rates of pay, separation allowances and living allowances for all ranks in the navy?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.


TRENTON AIRPORT MEAT CONTRACTS
Mr. WHITE:: 1.	How many contracts have been awarded by the Department of National Defence and/or the war supply board and/or the defence purchasing commission, for meat for Trenton airport, since January 1, 1939?
2.	To whom were such contracts awarded?
3.	On what dates were such contracts awarded ?
4.	What was the contract price in each contract?
5.	Was each of these contracts awarded as a result of calling for tenders?
6.	If so, was the lowest tender accepted in each case, and what was the amount of other tenders ?


TRENTON AIRPORT GASOLINE AND OIL CONTRACTS
Mr. WHITE:: 1.	How many contracts have been awarded by the Department of National Defence and/or the war supply board and/or the defence purchasing commission, for gasoline and oil for Trenton airport since June 1, 1939?
2.	To whom were such contracts awarded?
3.	On what dates were such contracts awarded ?
4.	What quality and quantity of gasoline and oil were to be supplied under each contract?
5.	What was the contract price for gasoline and oil in each contract?
6.	Was each of these contracts awarded as a result of calling for tenders?
7.	If so, was the lowest tender accepted in each case, and what was the amount of other tenders ?


IMPORTS OF FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	What was the quantity and value of fresh
fruits and vegetables of all kinds imported from the United States into Canada (a) during the year 1939,	(b) during the months of
January to May, 1940, inclusive?
2.	What was the quantity and value of importations of citrus fruits from the United States into Canada (a) during the year 1939, (b) during the months of January to May, 1940, inclusive?


James Angus MacKinnon: Return tabled.
Motions jor Papers


UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF-NUMBER OF CITIZENS BETWEEN SIXTY AND SEVENTY YEARS OF AGE
Mr. SHAW:: 1.	What is the population of Canada of citizens between sixty and seventy years of age, inclusive ?
2.	How many citizens of Canada between sixty and seventy years of age, inclusive, were in receipt of direct relief as at January 31, 1040?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: For a return showing a list of all persons released in 1939-40 from internment camps in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Ontario, together with the dates of release and reasons therefor.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: For the reasons I gave the other day, on the recommendation of my advisers I have to object to the adoption of this motion, as being contrary to the public interest.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Mr. Speaker, I d-o not know whether this is debatable.


Ernest Lapointe: It is not.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Then I
have not anything more to say.


Mr. POULIOT:: I taught that to Mr. Bennett some years ago, that it was not debatable.


MANUFACTURE OF TANKS IN CANADA
Mr. STIRLING:: For a copy of all correspondence, cables, telegrams, memoranda, notes of telephone conversations, and any other papers or documents passing between this government and His Majesty's government in the United Kingdom and/or any agent or authorized representative of either governmnt, and between this government and persons or corporations, relating to the manufacture of tanks in Canada since January 1, 1938.


Charles Gavan Power: I would ask that this be
allowed to stand until I examine it.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I have made inquiries, and
I find there are no such documents which are not definitely of a privileged character.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I
ask the minister if there is not correspondence between this government and certain persons or corporations in Canada or elsewhere? I appreciate that as between governments there may be confidential communications, but this is an extremely inclusive inquiry, and I am

sure that if there is anything on file which would come within the category to which I have referred, it should be produced.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My information is that while conversations took place, there is no correspondence of the class indicated.


ACREAGE BONUS-APPLICATIONS IN TOWNSHIP
[Stage Direction]
13-16-w 2nd
Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, affidavits and other documents dated from August 1, 1939, to March 31, 1940, in the possession of the government, regarding the application for the acreage bonus in township 13-16-W 2nd.


PORT GREVILLE, N.S., BREAKWATER
Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: For a return showing engineers' and inspectors' reports, payrolls, engineers' and foremen's salaries, accounts for materials and all other expenses in connection with work on the wharf breakwater at Port Greville, Cumberland county, Nova Scotia, for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1939 and 1940.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: There is no such structure
as a wharf breakwater at Port Greville. There are different structures there. There is a wharf, and a breakwater which is separate from the wharf. There has been a certain amount of protection work there, and also what is called shearwater, if I remember correctly. During the fiscal years mentioned in the motion, work has been done on the wharf and on the shearwater. I understand my hon. friend desires information as to the work being done by the government in the last two fiscal years. I have no objection to bringing down that information, but there is no expenditure on the breakwater.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, a
rose by any other name-


Mr. SPEAKER:: Carried.


MONTREAL INDIAN RESERVE, SASK., TEACHER AND MATRON
Mr. COLDWELL:: For a copy of all correspondence, reports and other documents dated from January 1, 1937, to June 1. 1940, dealing with the appointment and retirement of Mr. J. N. Stenhouse and Mrs. Agnes B. Stenhouse, as teacher and matron respectively, on the Montreal Indian reserve, Saskatchewan.


Mr. CRERAR:: I believe the hon. member
for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) is not in his seat. I spoke to him respecting this notice of motion the other day. It involves a considerable amount of work, such as that

National Defence
of copying documents. At that time I inquired of him if he would be content to view the files, which would be placed at his disposal either in the Department of Indian Affairs or in my own office upstairs. My hon. friend said that would be satisfactory, and he indicated to me that when the notice of motion was called he would ask that it be dropped. Since he is not in his seat, I mention the conversation which took place between us.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT-OPERATIONS IN ALBERTA
Mr. HANSELL:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and other documents during the years 1939 and 1940 to date, exchanged between the dominion government, or any official thereof, and the government of Alberta, or any official thereof, with respect to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act.


SASKATCHEWAN CANTEEN FUND
Mr. COLD  WELL@: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the dominion government and the government of Saskatchewan, relating to the setting up of the canteen fund by the province of Saskatchewan; the appointment of trustees and auditors, and also all the correspondence, etc., regarding the said fund, between July 1, 1939, and the present time.


SALES OF FRUIT AND DAIRY PRODUCTS IN UNITED KINGDOM
Mr. ROWE:: For a copy of all reports, recommendations and other correspondence passing between Mr. William Allen, Canadian agricultural commissioner to England, and any department of the Canadian government, during the past year, relating to the sale of pork products, dairy products, fruit and canned goods in the British Isles.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY


[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Department of Munitions and Supply Act to clarify the powers of the minister and in some respects extend his powers of acquisition, by purchase or otherwise, of munitions and supplies, and to empower him to construct and carry out defence projects, engage services, et cetera.
He said: His Excellency the Administrator, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.
PRIVILEGE-Mr. HANSELL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this group I should like to raise a question of privilege. The "Journal of the Parliaments of the Empire," copies of Which were in our mail boxes to-day, records the results of the last election and states that the present standing in the house of the Social Credit party is eight. This should be ten. It records also that the standing of this party at the dissolution of the last parliament was seventeen. This should be fifteen.
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING
(Prime Minister): Neither this house nor this parliament nor this government has any responsibility for the journal to which my hon. friend has just referred.


Ernest George Hansell: I quite understand that.


NATIONAL DEFENCE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, I should like to call the attention of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the government to a press report of this morning in which the premier of Ontario is alleged to have declared at St. Thomas last evening that the Ontario provincial police have received information that nazi and fascist sympathizers in the United States are organized and waiting only for orders from across the Atlantic to attack Ontario. Has the government any information which would justify this allegation? If not, will the government take immediate steps either to confirm or to clarify the position? If the government has information that such declaration is correct, what steps, if any, does the government propose to take to meet the situation?


Ernest Lapointe: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which is the proper body to look after matters of this kind, has been for some time in direct communication with the secret service and police authorities of the United States. The mounted police know as far as it is possible to know what is going on and they are taking all necessary steps to meet whatever situation may arise. I may say that making this matter the subject of a press report is merely spreading rumours in a way that is not conducive to the public good or to the

Defence of Canada Regulations
proper prosecution of the war. It is a sample of the kind of cooperation we are receiving in certain quarters.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have not the slightest objection to the observation which the right hon. gentleman has just made, but I want to know if the allegation to which I have referred is true. Have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police been in communication with the provincial police of Ontario in connection with this important matter?


Ernest Lapointe: If the provincial police of Ontario had received such report, their duty was to communicate it to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the federal authorities and not make it the subject of a report in the press.


APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER AND REVIEW DEFENCE OF CANADA REGULATIONS
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, June 11, consideration of the motion of Mr. Mackenzie King for the appointment of a committee to consider and review the defence of Canada regulations passed under the War Measures Act.
Mr. A. G. SLAGHT (Parry Sound):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to discuss briefly the resolution now in debate. I find that I am to be a member of the committee which this resolution proposes should be set up, and it is my view that I should refrain, which I propose to do, from discussing at this stage any of the regulations with which we shall deal in committee. That discussion can come later. Hon. gentlemen who are members of this committee may find that as a result of what takes place there, the views that they entertain to-day may be radically changed after full information is received. I listened with interest to the remarks made yesterday by the hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson). He is not to be a member of this committee, but I think we	are	all indebted	to	him for the
constructive and helpful suggestions which he made in connection with this important matter.
I am strongly in favour of drastic regulations. In my judgment the safety of the nation in war time must override those excellent safeguards of	the	subject which	are	in force andin vogue	and	of which we	are	so proud asBritishers.	I	listened also	to	the remarks
made yesterday by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) and the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green). I am much in accord with what those two hon. members and the leader of the opposition said, but I differ with them in some respects. In my view this is not the time or the place

to debate such difference of opinion. I mention this so that I may be enabled in committee to give my view.
Both the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and the hon. member for Vancouver South are to be members of this committee, and I believe they will render most valuable assistance. Let me say to the hon. member for Vancouver South that in my view there is nothing in his suggestion that the appointment of this committee will relieve the government of responsibility in connection with defence regulations and internment. The government have not shirked their responsibilities in this regard one iota. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) made it perfectly clear yesterday that the policy of the government is set out in the present regulations.
According to the wording of the resolution we are discussing, this committee is to be given power to report its opinions and observations to the house from time to time. The hon. member for Vancouver South complained that a reference of this matter to a committee would involve weeks of deliberation, that it was merely a stop-gap, but let me suggest to him that this committee can see to it that nothing like that happens in connection with this important subject. If the members of the committee are ready to treat their job as an urgent war-time job, we can sit, at eight o'clock in the morning until one o'clock in the afternoon, and then from 11.15 o'clock at night until one o'clock the next morning. There would thus be no interference with our duties in the house. With that sort of diligence we could thresh out these regulations in a week's time and make at least an interim report, as we are invited to do by the language of the resolution. Farmers get up at five o'clock in the morning to milk their cows.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They go to bed at nine o'clock.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: There seems to be a good deal of experience in that regard. I would suggest to this and other committees of the house that the work should be speeded up instead of being allowed to drift along in a leisurely way. Instead of starting at eleven o'clock in the morning, we should be ready to start at eight o'clock or at nine o'clock at the latest and be prepared to put the business of this country on a war-time basis. We are asking industry to work twenty-four hours a day, and in my view we should at this time set a real example of industry among the private members of this house. I am not directing any criticism at the government.

Defence of Canada Regulations
I believe that the Prime Minister and the members of the cabinet are working sixteen to eighteen hours a day, seven days a week. I believe that the deputy ministers and the key officials in the various departments of government are unselfishly working long hours such as I have mentioned, and to all of them we owe a deep debt of gratitude for what they are doing in that regard.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Do not forget the leader of the opposition too.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: I am sure that the leader of the opposition rises with the cows and bums the midnight oil. In my view, Mr. Speaker, the ordinary member of this house is chiefly useful for the work he does in committees.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Hear, hear.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: 
Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: Now tell us about the January session.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: My hon. friend refers to the January session, which was shorter still. My point, and I am serious in it, is that we private members-I speak of them particularly-have to set an example to the rest of Canada in industry and in getting on with the job in this parliament. It was refreshing to me yesterday to note the little tilt between the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), the leader of the left group, and the hon. leader of the opposition. The difference seemed to be as to who were pinks and who were not. I want to suggest with all kindliness to these hon. gentlemen that there 95826-46
are good and bad ministers of the gospel- there are no bad ministers, of course, in the House of Commons-there are good and bad lawyers, and good and bad school teachers and professors, and I venture also to suggest that we shall not gain much at this time by discussing in this house the relative merits of those who are following various occupations in life.
While all hon. gentlemen who have spoken in this debate have been ready to affirm the utmost confidence in our Minister of Justice (Mr Lapointe), which I share to the full, and which I share,' I believe, with every hon. member of this house, he was subjected to some friendly criticism yesterday and I want a word on that subject. We are fortunate, in my view, to have in this country at this time a Minister of Justice with the qualities of the present incumbent. The burden placed upon him under these very defence regulations has been enormous, and he has discharged it one hundred per cent as a great Canadian. No charges, of course, were made, but I resent the slightest suggestion that the faintest breath of political influence has motivated a single act of the Minister of Justice from the moment the war broke out down to this moment of to-day. That is a statement which I think needs to be made in this house in view of some observations that were made yesterday.
I want to pay a tribute, Mr. Speaker, to another public servant intimately connected with the administration of these regulations, and that is Brigadier Stuart T. Wood, Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and thereby charged with terrific responsibilities under these regulations. He is thereby also the head of the secret service of Canada. I had the personal privilege of being thrown into contact with him in the last few months and know something of the character of his work. He is a graduate of Scotland Yard, and under his guidance and that of his illustrious predecessor in office, now gone, our Royal Canadian Mounted Police has been brought up to a standard than which there is none higher in the world to-day. The requirements of. their training and education for the important work they do are terrific in their severity. I wish the members of the house would take the trouble to look up those requirements. I say to this house with all assurance that our secret service and our mounted police force is as .efficient and effective a force as either Scotland Yard itself or the famous federal bureau of investigation at Washington headed by Edgar Hoover and his G men.
The subject of sabotage and the enemy within is one to which I have given special

Defence of Canada Regulations

study in the last two years. For the benefit of the eighty-two new members of this house and of any other members who may be interested in refreshing their minds as to sabotage during the last war, I may say that on May 13, 1939, thirteen months ago, beginning at page 1043 of Hansard, I dealt in detail with that subject, and any member may find there a recital of the specific evidence against Count von Rernstorff, Franz von Papen, Captain Boy-Ed and Doctor Albert, who received from Berlin and spent one hundred and fifty million American dollars, in conducting sabotage activities against Canada and the United States from their headquarters at Washington, while at the same time breaking bread and drinking wine at the hospitable table of the President of the United States. There hon. members will find details of one hundred and five specific cases of sabotage and destruction by dynamiting planned and carried out in Canada and the United States.
These activities in the last war really began to manifest themselves some five months after that war began. We have had nine months of war now, and owing largely to the magnificent preparations of the mounted police force ind local police authorities in every province we have not had a single serious act of sabotage in Canada. That is not luck. In the past twenty-four hours hundreds of enemy aliens have been picked up and interned, and more will follow. The selection and arrest of these men have not been due to any haphazard policy or to luck. The secret service of Canada have been at work for the past three rears upon these very problems, and to the record up to date the Minister of Justice and the people of Canada are entitled to point with pride. Let me hasten to say, notwithstanding that, that I view with alarm what may happen in the future. In my judgment we must give this splendid force all the reinforcements, all the recruits, all the temporary and partial assistance which they may seek and ask for, and we must not stop to count the cost.
I should like to make to the Minister of Justice a suggestion of which a few moments ago I advised him and which I believe should meet with the full approval of the house. It is, that he amend his resolution by permitting the committee to report also upon the question of appropriate punishment for war offences. To do a thorough job, that follows upon the other task already set. Should the minister approve our doing so, and should the house support him-and I would hope they would- a simple amendment can be made by adding, in the third but last line of the resolution,

after the words "to consider and review the aforementioned regulations," the following language:
and the question of appropriate punishment for war offences. . . .
These regulations deal mainly, be it remembered, with drastic powers of arrest, detention and internment, the basis of which need not be an overt act of any kind which in ordinary peace time would bring a man into the police court or the criminal courts. These regulations contain some mild provisions as to punishment for contravening or failing to comply with any of the regulations; but it is the criminal code itself which deals with punishment of those who are caught and charged with actual overt acts of sabotage, espionage and treason, In my view the sections of the code should be tightened up as regards offences of this kind and particularly as to the punishment therefor. I shall not trouble the house with details.
Part II of the code is headed, "Offences against public authority, internal and external", and deals in part with these matters. Section 74 defines "treason" in detail. Sections 85 and 86, under the general heading, "Information illegally obtained or communicated", deal with espionage, spying and giving information to the enemy. Section 510, under the innocent-sounding heading of "Mischief", deals with the wilful destruction of property, and imprisonment for different periods of time is provided for different types of offence. In this regard I have a drastic proposal to make. I should like to be able to make it to the committee and then let it come back here. It is that we should make it possible to inflict the death penalty upon every person, whether an alien enemy, a naturalized alien, or a Canadian-born British subject-of whom I hope there would be never one-who is caught and convicted of any such offence against his king and country.
We in Canada now have the death penalty for treason, for murder, and for rape, although the death penalty is seldom inflicted for the last-mentioned offence. Sabotage, espionage and fifth column activities reek with treachery and are in my view the vilest form of crime which can be committed by mortal man to-day. Let the parliament of Canada issue solemn warning by creating this death penalty against any of those hidden, subversive elements that are within our bosom to-day, and let us put the fear of God into them, in so far as one can hope to put the fear of God into cowardly, treacherous, criminal saboteurs. In other words, let us get tough, and let us make it known to criminally-minded people in Canada that they can expect no mercy.

Defence of Canada Regulations
The press to-day, as was intimated by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Hanson), carries an article that warnings have been received of a possible, expected influx of criminal saboteurs from across the border. Whether this report is authentic I have no knowledge. In any event let it go forth from the floor of this house to such people, if any there be, that they could not at this moment undertake a more hazardous or unhealthy task. I have been told by some of those in high places in the United States who are charged with the responsibility of law enforcement and the administration of criminal justice, that the underworld of the United States in peace time give Canada a wide berth so far as operating here is concerned. Sometimes members of that underworld run across the border into Canada to hide after crimes committed in the United States; but they do not come to Canada to operate, and the reason is that they are afraid of the rope in Canada; they are also afraid of the swiff, sure, non-political administration of criminal justice in this country of which we have a just right to be proud. If any evil-minded enemy aliens contemplate trips to Canada, let me warn them that we in this country shall use our best efforts-and those efforts, as I have indicated, are not inconsiderable-to see that their adventure shall end at the end of a rope.
I should like to have our committee accorded the right to consider such drastic measures of punishment and, at least, promptly offer their report to this house thereon. I am looking at the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), who will, I am sure, cooperate in this matter. The house may or may not adopt the recommendation.
I offer these observations in support of the suggestion that, if the house approves, the few words of which I have advised the minister should be added to the resolution.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: In May of last year, upon the estimates of the Department of Justice relating to the mounted police, I raised in the committee this question of adverse propaganda, because at that time there was a great deal of dissatisfaction over the circulation in Canada of certain United States papers. At that time I asked that the powers of the mounted police should be extended and coordinated with the police systems of the provinces, and especially of the municipalities, and that the federal power should pay, in part, for the enforcement of federal law. However, nothing whatever was done at that time about this matter. The dominion has said that the enforcement of all federal law is a matter for the provinces, and therefore the burden of enforcing the federal 95826-46J
statutes and rules and regulations is largely on the municipalities who have to pay for i. This objectionable fifth-column propaganda had been going on for a long time, and for that reason I asked on that occasion that the minister should look into the matter and that he should coordinate the federal police system with the police systems of the provinces and of the municipalities.
It is extraordinary that the defence of Canada regulations were not brought up for consideration during the parliamentary session known as the war session. Nothing was done nor was there any discussion on the schedule of rates to be paid the dependents of those serving in the army, navy and air force o' this country. On the patriotic fund bin the minister simply said that it was desirable to provide an organization for such purpose and asked to put on Hansard the schedule-SI .30 a day for the army- without debate. We saw what became of that piece of legislation, through passing it without debate or question, and the suffering which followed. The same thing happened to the defence of Canada regulations during that war session-not a word was said about it. It is astonishing to note that the first thing heard of this War Measures Act revival was the minute of the privy council on March 14, 1938, No. 531. The government had done nothing down to the day this order in council was passed, largely upon the urgings of -the opposition with regard to defence that year. I make no apology for criticizing the minister or the government, because criticism is a tonic in time of war which stimulates government to action. Britain and France have realized that during the past three months. Constructive and helpful criticism saves a government from falling into a pit of errors and blunders which are fatal in time of war, more so than in peace. If the criticism is honest and founded on fact and not inspired by political motives there can be no objection to it; it is most desirable and proper.
I pointed out that during the war session nothing was said about these matters. The interdepartmental committee on emergency legislation was appointed shortly after Germany started on the march. An order in council was passed on March 14, 1938, setting up this interdepartmental committee, but it never held a meeting from March up to the end of September, although the fate of the world was being decided in that memorable meeting at Munich in 1938. Even then the committee merely met, got organized, and elected a chairman. This inaction continued until January 19 of last year. Although the Germans had invaded three or four countries,

Defence of Canada Regulations
the committee never held a single meeting from September, 1938, to January 19, 1939, and none from their appointment until after Munich on September 28, 1938. At that time they had before them order No. 531 of the privy council, dated March 14, 1938, and after that they did nothing until the war broke out.
I assert that the responsibility for these regulations is not on this house, but on the government, just as is the responsibility for the discussion of dependants' allowances, yet at the war session both matters were passed over with hardly anything at all being said about them. I can say of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) that since I came here in 1921 he has been most polite to hon. members in connection with the legislation of his department, and he must not interpret my remarks as any personal criticism of himself- far from it. Everybody wishes to support him in this battle of nerves. Speaking as a past chairman of the police commission of Toronto I can say that on the whole we had the utmost cooperation from the justice department and in general from the government. My action in raising this matter during the minister's estimates last year must be regarded as a criticism not of himself but of the way in which the government are administering the trust of protecting the people in this grave crisis.
The only question in this debate, as I see it, for the house to consider is, are these regulations necessary for the safety of Canada and her allies? If the government tell the people that they are, no matter how drastic those regulations may be, I believe the government will receive the unanimous support of all right thinking people in this country. All we need to know is that they are absolutely necessary to protect us from the ravages of the notorious fifth column and from the sabotage which has wrecked so many small nations in Europe.
On January 25, 1940, I had a motion on the order paper asking that a committee be appointed to investigate the anti-ally propaganda in Canada, also the Anglo-French phobia and the attacks made on the allies by cheap United States papers and foreign radio. One had only to go through the streets of the larger cities throughout Canada to see the amount of this trash being sold, the product of the cheap pro-German gutter press, containing attacks on our brave allies in these critical times. During last session and the session before I called the attention of the government in this house to this matter and asked that some of these papers be banned and refused the use of the Canadian mails. I brought this matter up during the very week
fMr. Church.1
of the visit of their majesties. The attacks which these pro-German United States papers made upon the sovereign, our institutions and the British connection, were disgraceful. Yet nothing was done to shut them out of Canada.
About two years ago a committee, known as the Dies committee of the senate, was appointed at Washington to investigate antiAmerican propaganda. They held a number of important sessions for this purpose, and so much evidence was obtained of German propaganda in the United States that the senate was called upon to act. Senator Nye, co-author of the neutrality act, said that nothing the kaiser did in the great war would compare with the sending by Britain and Canada of lecturers and professors and others to the United States to drag America into the present war, and there was some discussion as to what type of regulation should be adopted to deal with activities there of this kind. The subject was raised in the British parliament, and there were many newspapers which discussed the question from one point of view or the other. When it came before the Dies committee at Washington after the outbreak of the war, the chairman was asked to tell the committee who Were these people who had come from Canada and Great Britain as Senator Nye said, but he could not name a single individual who had been sent by the British government. The names of some professors and others from Canada were mentioned as upholding the pacifist side; a few of them were connected with the universities of this country. I believe it would be better if the government were to trust the daily press of Canada and let them have a free hand, as they did in 1917, when little or no trouble was caused. So far, as in the great war, the daily and weekly papers of Canada have risen splendidly to the situation.
Some of the articles of certain United States columnists republished by chains in Canada are open to criticism, as containing only half truths. Some of them are none too friendly to the cause of the allies, and attack the British cabinet. Howard Ickes, Hon. secretary of the interior at Washington, has referred to them as "calumnyists". Some of these articles should be the subject of our amended regulations. They would not be tolerated in the last war.
Has the situation not changed since last January? I say it has. Although I had a motion on January 25 and also on May 16 along the lines of appointing a committee to investigate anti-ally propaganda in Canada, I believe the situation has entirely changed

Dejence oj Canada Regulations
since then, through the attacks made on Britain and France, the campaign in Finland, the campaign against Norway, the invasion of Holland and Belgium, and the disgraceful vulture attacks of Italy. The time has now come for the government to take the responsibility for anything which is to be done. We pass this resolution, and what is going to happen? No criticism will be allowed in our press. The special committee will meet, and they will not present a report until the end of the session; that will be the end of it-the house will be reduced to a cipher. The Minister of Justice and his predecessor have told the house on many occasions that the enforcement of all federal laws is upon the municipalities, and the provinces, through the provincial attorneys general. If that is so, is this propaganda to go on? Yesterday there were riots in Toronto and the windows of sixteen Italian stores were broken. Is the police commission of Toronto expected to act? Yes, but they await advice from Ottawa. Is the government going to enforce these war-measure regulations or not?-because there has been a failure since the war thoroughly to enforce them. Consider for instance the attacks on recruiting made by a certain section of the clergy of the United Church of Canada in the Witness in what is called "The Witness against War". These men should have been proceeded against the same as any other poor citizen without influence; yet Ontario referred it to Ottawa and they were allowed to do as they please-with a war on to engulf civilization.
I believe there should be one law for all these people, as I said during the debate on the address. I believe that if we wait for the provinces to enforce 'these regulations, there will be no uniform enforcement at all. Ottawa in war should enforce its own laws. We have 4,000 miles of border between the United States and Canada. A writer on the editorial page of the Manchester Guardian gave some interesting figures. He said that before the war Chicago was the third largest German city in the world, and it has been found that there are more Scotch people in the United States than there are in the city of Glasgow; more Irish than there are in Dublin; more Mexicans than there are in Mexico City; more Japanese than there are in Tokyo and more Jews than there are in Palestine, and that New York was the Jewish capital of the world. This writer goes on to say that we must watch out when Italy enters the war, because of the number of foreigners in the United States, and the German-Italian-Russian spy propaganda. He also says that there are more coloured people in that country than there are in all Africa,
and urges that some organization in the dominions should cope with these questions before it is too late.
This matter of the enforcement of regulations such as these came up in the British house, and the British government saw fit to assume the responsibility. Yesterday the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) made an excellent speech, as he always does, and he referred to these regulations, and the necessity of not referring this matter to a committee. When I read the last two lines of this resolution it seems to me that these regulations will be completely suspended in all Canada and the fifth column, while this committee is meeting, can do as it pleases. The resolution states:
And whereas, it is deemed advisable that a committee of the house consider the said regulations as amended to ascertain whether such regulations reasonably meet the requirements of the country in time of war.
What are the police departments going to do? If they bring these people to court, the lawyers will stand up and say there are no regulations, that a committee is revising them, so nothing will be done to save our country from the nazi-fascist plague. The police commissions of the country want to know what these regulations are now and who are going to enforce them before it is too late. As I have said before, I think the government should forward copies of all these orders in council and rules to the leading cities of the dominion and to the police chiefs so that they may know what is the law and should cooperate with them. These alien enemies and members of fifth columns never rest. They carry on an incessant warfare against the people of this country. On January 25 last, as in other years, I stated that the cost of soldier guards for home defence and the protection of public property, federal, provincial and municipal, should be borne by this government under the authority of the British North America Act, section 91, subsection 7, as was done during the last war. Why is it not done now regardless of cost? If you are going to do anything to protect your Canadian-United States borders, you will have to enforce these regulations and, as a result of Italy's action, call out the militia of Canada and order a compulsory register and national service for man-power. In addition, I believe section 9S should be put back in the criminal code as the government of Ontario has requested. That should be our answer to Italy's entry into this bandit war. We may have to face attacks on all our public utilities from Germans and Italians on the United States border; that is why I think our militia should, as in the last war, guard these
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properties. In addition I think we should have national service and an immediate national registration, and compel each man, woman and child to do their part to repel the invader at the gate. No time should be lost.
All these things were demanded last Sunday at a meeting of the Canadian Corps Association in my constituency, attended by some
50,000	people, at which some of the same resolutions which I have brought before this house were endorsed. I have called, during the last three years in this house, for a national registration of man-power, economic and industrial power, food production, for a survey of all industries in this country, large and small, to see if we could not get part of the orders resulting from England's rearmament scheme. As I mentioned the other night, we were able to obtain only about one per cent of those orders, as a result of being too late even as to tanks, aeroplanes and other war equipment, and no industry was asked to tender.
I have lost a great deal of interest and confidence in the committee system. We have a committee to look after the Canadian National Railways; we have an election committee, an agricultural committee and others; we had a Bren gun committee. When the reports of these committees are presented what happens? The reports are brought in towards the end of the session, and the chairman, after an hour's debate, moves that the debate be adjourned. That happened in connection with four committees last year, and all discussion was shut off. No one knows what will be the fate of this country; no one knows to whom it will belong at the end of the year if Great Britain and France should lose the war. Canada is the next objective in this fight to a finish. So long as this war lasts, Canada must do something all along the line.
The issue in this resolution, as I see it, is whether the regulations are fair and reasonable. If so, the country will support the government who must take the responsibility for them. Yesterday the Minister of Justice said these regulations expressed government policy; that is the policy in the red book of regulations. If that is the case, why does the government not now take responsibility for them without a committee and amend them? Under the French and British systems the responsibility for government rests on the governments, not on the opposition, not on committees or commissions. As long as they are the government of the day they are responsible, and they should take the responsibility. The government should decide what these regulations are to be, having in view Italy's entry into the war. Then the regula-
tions should be proclaimed and federally enforced by Ottawa itself. Other matters can be taken up later on, but as matters stand at present the people do not know what are the regulations. In the past the government has been too late, and I am urging that in this instance it should do its plain duty. There is not a moment to be lost, now that Italy has come in. During the Spanish trouble, Italian submarines found shelter on the southeast coast of that country, and Italy has modern submarines that can cross the Atlantic ocean and return without refueling, and go round the cape without refueling. Yet we sit here appointing a committee to revise these regulations, in the face of the gravest danger that Canada and the empire have ever faced. Every day is bringing this war closer to our shores, while we have been too late in Canada in everything. In the metre of an old evangelist hymn, we might say:
Too late, too late will be the cry,
Hitler of Germany passeth by,
Too late, too late will be the cry, Mussolini the vulture passeth by.
This is not the time to appoint committees. Action is wanted at once. Why, even the police commission of the city of Toronto cannot get copies of orders in council to learn what the regulations are so as to enforce them against alien enemies. In the Toronto Telegram of yesterday re Italian riots, I see these headlines :
Angry Toronto citizens smash Italian shop windows
Beer bottles and bricks wreck glass in eleven stores
Police make one arrest
Window smashing goes on from early evening till after midnight
Many people of Italian origin should not be punished in this way, especially those who were in this country before the last war, unless it can be shown they are hostile. Many are intelligent citizens who have raised families in this country for thirty or forty years and who contributed freely to patriotic funds during the last war, and are in no way responsible for this madman in Italy. But there are many others who have been brought into Canada after 1927 and recently who should be brought under these regulations. If we are fighting the German and Italian peoples overseas, I believe war ought to be brought home overseas to those peoples. There is no use in saying that it is not the Italian people or the German people we are fighting. I am glad to see that at last the hour of truth has arrived and that now the allies have reached a showdown with Hitler. Until a month or so ago nearly all fighting had been on the sea, with the exception of the invasion of Norway and

Dejeiice of Canada Regulations
Finland. Now Hitler has extended the war by bringing in Italy. It is unfortunate that this conflict of nazism and fascism should have been brought about by the union of paganism and mechanization and that we should be living in days of barbarism, when freedom and liberty are in jeopardy from savage dictators. The question is whether or not the allies and the British empire shall return to the dark ages. If we do not win this war we are doomed, together with all we hold sacred. Even life itself will not be worth living.
I want to remind hon. members that under the constitution the ministry is responsible to parliament, and parliament cannot hand over this task to any other body, even to a committee. It is never right or desirable for us to criticize allied governments, as was done yesterday. I only desire to direct attention to where the responsibility lies for these regulations and for the conduct of the war. It will not do to try to hand over that responsibility to the civil service, the deputy ministers, the best minds in the country, the Canadian corps or newspapers or anybody else. The real power of the people lies with the ministers and not with parliament. They should not hand their powers to others. Since the session has opened they have become more amenable to public opinion. If the government has made mistakes in connection with side-stepping compulsory registration of man power and national service it should not be afraid to tell the people of Canada that it has made mistakes. I say to my right hon. friend, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) and to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King): Don't be afraid to tell the people you have made mistakes, as the people of Canada do not expect their ministers to be gods. They do not expect that their ministers will not make any mistakes. They know that all governments are human and make mistakes, and the government should not be afraid to say we will go forward and remedy the mistakes. If there is any criticism, then matters should be corrected. If the ministers will tell the people of Canada about these new regulations, the difficulties under which they are working, those people will rise to the occasion and give the government the necessary support, so far as they can, no matter how drastic these war regulations are, to save Canada from the dictators and their fifth column.
It has been very hard for the man on the street to find out what has been going on, so far, and to get the facts on defence and foreign affairs. Canada wants action from the government. It wants action by this government on land, sea and in the air. We want real activity, and no more inaction,
doubt, fear and delay, and we do not want any more evidence of an inability to act against the enemy from within and from without Canada, or any more indecision as to what should be done.
Nothing is "as usual" in France and Britain, but it is in Canada, because people have not taken the question of defence seriously, and never have since Munich, because they could not get the facts. Instead of Canada being at real war last winter it was conducting a limited liability secret war- recruiting on-again-off-again. There was more life in a kind of sporting war, and was bringing in professional wrestlers from all countries, even from our enemies. Nothing is as usual over in France and Britain. They want to save liberty and freedom. Hitler and Mussolini are not going to be vanquished by passing motions, or by our voting for the enforcement of Defence of Canada Regulations. They are not going to be vanquished by parliamentary repartee or by blue books, pacifism, peace pacts or protocols. The issue calls for broad national service and sacrifice by all the people of Canada, and no victory can be won without it. The government's plans should be keyed up, measures adopted and defence and war regulations passed to insure such a victory and tightened against sabotage. Canada had lots of warning before and after Munich. She had a further warning on Good Friday of 1939 when Germany shoved Italy into Albania, and when Italy had just deserted the allies in connection with the trouble in Spain and had become a vassal state of Germany. No longer should the ministry listen to the babble of pacifists in Canada. They had their day and led Canada to rely on Washington peace pacts and shams like the league and collective security.
In war the moral issue is of vast importance. Britain and France have now all peoples representing liberty, decency, religion, mercy, truth and justice ranged on their side against the dictators and the powers of darkness and paganism. All those things hated by us are found in the nazi regime, and have been borrowed from Moscow. I refer to terrorism, fear, concentration camps, forced labour, secret police, spies, the hostage system, suppression of the press and of free speech, and persecution of religion. All these things in the nazi system were copied and patterned from Russia and Italy is copying them also. Yes-men and nodders in Germany, Italy and Russia caused this war by their surrender to usurpers.
Great Britain, France and the United States and the world allowed Germany, Russia and Italy to rearm and get away with rapine and murder, and the mutilation of the smaller states. All this was done through the advance

Defence of Canada Regulations
of loans from the allies and from this continent. Russian brutalities surpass only those of Germany, with its wholesale massacres, bestialities and hell on earth let loose.
Had it not been for Great Britain and France Hitler would have been here long ago, and this continent would have suffered the fate of the small countries in Europe. As it is we do not know who will own Canada by the end of the year. Hitler united Canada after the Munich pact. All of us realize the grave change which has taken place. Following Munich we refused to recognize the warning which had been given, and Canada did not take it seriously, but it will wake up if the dictators come here.
We were led to believe there would be no war after Munich, and Canada continued to sleep. The government should immediately mobilize, in view of the change of opinion that has taken place. We should watch our United States border and our northern border. We should watch all borders and beware of the nazi-fascists fifth column under the guise of tourists. I say that 600,000 men should be mobilized, and those men could be enlisted under a voluntary system. They could be drilled and equipped for national service now if action had been taken. Canada would welcome any measures, no matter how drastic they may be, for national defence and to win the war, if the country was once convinced that those measures are an absolute necessity. The then grave danger and grim realities of our absolute lack of defence on land, sea and in the air, as I have urged before, should have been told the people. But they were not given the facts. They are now equally dependent upon Great Britain and France for protection, as in 1812, for all the defence and freedom we enjoy.
The real picture should have been told in parliament last September, and the government should have invited into its confidence immediately all parties, all industrial and financial leaders and leaders of labour especially, and those people should have been told of the absolute necessity for national service. For the duration of the war and for some time after we should have some modified form of state control to help increase industrial effort, and industrial and agricultural planning.
If the people of Canada could only read the exact text of this motion, something they have been denied for some time, there would be some heart searching in Canada as to whether or not enough is being done. The only question is this: Are the regulations necessary, and are they adequate and sufficient for the defence of Canada? Will they protect

our people? Will they guard our borders, will they protect our municipalities, our cities and towns, which are absolutely unprotected? During the Ethiopian campaign I called the attention of the house in 1937 to what had happened there, and pointed out, further, that the same could happen from air raids on civilian cities here, in Quebec, Montreal, Toronto, Hamilton or other places in Canada. I pointed out that air raids had been directed against innocent people. I urged upon the government that a survey should be made all over Canada, but nothing was done. As was stated yesterday by the hon. member for Vancouver South, something will have to be done to-day, because the people of Canada are ready to make any sacrifice, and I believe the municipalities and provinces are equally willing, if the government gives direction. That is the only question for us to decide.
The winning of the war concerns every man, woman and child not only in Canada but in the mother country and in the whole of the British empire, no less than in glorious France, Finland, Poland, Bohemia, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Roumania and Turkey, and all other people who know that their fate is bound up with the maintenance of Christianity, liberty and civilization. We should confine our talk to our own efforts and not attack our own allies, or criticize the great work of the mother country and her public men. I have been sorry to see the way' criticism has been directed against the British government, and I was grieved to note the vile attacks in the United States press, or a section of it, on the late Prime Minister, Mr. Chamberlain. We should view with the utmost respect what was done over there by our allies who have saved us from invasion while we did nothing.
At the outbreak of the war Britain immediately took command of the seas. She immediately mobilized her army, her air force and navy, and only about one per cent listed themselves as conscientious objectors under conscription. Questions connected with food conservation and control, evacuation and home defence were handled by the government in Great Britain, notwithstanding the efforts of international socialists who did Hitler's work, some of whom were mentioned yesterday in this house. Who are these people? They were mentioned here yesterday, and Hitler has said that his best friends are those international socialists, pacifists and peace societies. They led Britain to scrap the finest army, navy and air force the world had ever seen, with the result that the pacifists must bear the responsibility for bringing on the war. Britain and France did not want

Defence of Canada Regulations
war, but the dictator nations were permitted to rearm, while the international socialists did nothing but aid Russia and the dictators. Further, those same pacifist people in England and Canada persuaded Britain to reduce her capital ships from seventy to fifty, with the result that to-day we have no Atlantic squadron, and have no squadron in the Pacific. I say that those twenty ships were necessary for the defence and protection of England today and to save the world from slavery.
We must not blame Mr. Chamberlain for that. Rather, we can blame the pacifists in England and in Canada, and our dependence on the League of Nations, pan-Americanism and the Monroe Doctrine. We must know the truth in Canada that all we have of liberty, freedom and civilization we owe to the mother country.
In conclusion may I point out that the defence of Canada will not be decided at Quebee, Montreal or Vancouver. That issue will be decided for Canada on the soil of France, in the English channel and in the air and on the French-Italian and German border. If the empire is disintegrated, the whole world will go into chaos and the gifts which are taken for granted, liberty and the right to live one's life in one's own way, will disappear. This is true and every Canadian knows it.
I fail to see what action this committee can take. We had an example of what can happen here in Canada during the last war. Ribbentrop came to Ottawa, was received in the best homes, took copious notes, worked on our public works and in the Molson's bank in Montreal, and suddenly left for home. I understand he worked in Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec before going back to Germany. His brother was interned on Montreal island during the war. Canada does not seem to know Germany and her methods and refuses to awake. A terrible danger is at our very door; it calls for the enforcement of these regulations, for adequate soldier home guards and increased militia.
We have seen enough of the actions of pacifists, peace societies, professors of antiBritish propaganda, and the American-German press, all of whom are attacking British statesmen. Hitler himself said that these peace societies and these international pacifists were his best friends. He should know. The lessons gained in the last war seem to have been forgotten. The present generation do not remember the great war. Some hon. members will remember what occurred in Washington at that time. Count Bernstorff was the German ambassador and he and Von Papen engaged in an anti-allies campaign. A series of events occurred in the United
States during that time, and unless precautions are taken they will be repeated during this war. Von Papen, now in Germany, is still working for his country against the allies. A British white paper which was tabled in 1916 gives details of the activities of Count Bernstorff and Von Papen in the United States. Certain documents which were found on a journalist at Fairmouth in August, 1915, are detailed in this British white paper. They show the dangerous machinations of the Austrian-Hungarian group. It was finally necessary to recall the Austrian Doctor Dumbra from Washington. Finally the German embassy at Washington was implicated in acts of sabotage which had been carried out in the United States. Von Papen, the military attache, and Bernstorff, had been in charge of these operations there. They used their diplomatic positions as a shield for the work they were carrying on-purchasing ammunition and other war supplies for Germany; organizing outrages against the United States and explosions in many cities, and general sabotage.
The same thing is quite likely to happen to-day. According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer, of the issue of May 6, the German ambassador is reported to have said in Cleveland that Britain has no right to Canada, that she should give up Gibraltar and other possessions. The government of the United States knew what was happening in the last war, but because of the German vote and the nearness of a presidential election in 1916, nothing was done. However, Bernstorff and Von Papen and Captain Boy-Ed went to such lengths that the United States government were finally forced to ask the recall of Bernstorff and others. Great Britain and France did not want to grant safe passage, but they were finally permitted to return to Germany. But they took with them many of the secrets of the United States government, to hurt the allies.
We should tighten up the regulations now, and the government should take responsibility. We should place more restrictions upon free entry into Canada under the guise of tourist traffic. We should not forget what happened during the great war. Thousands of people were permitted to enter the country at Niagara Falls and other border points, and hardly any effort was made to check them. If necessary, the United States and German radios and pro-nazi propaganda should be cut off. The morale of the people should be kept up and the nazi gutter press of the United States and the pacifist student bodies should be regulated. The element of time has a greater value in time of war than
Defence of Canada Regulations

in time of peace. Every delay in time of war is deadly. This is what Napoleon said. It is now a fight to a finish. Either Germany is beaten or the British and French empires will end and crumble. The civilization and liberty for which our ancestors fought will be at an end. The history of Canada for the past five years has been one of wasted opportunity. We have neglected to carry on the necessary preparations and have been too late in everything. We have done nothing to help check Germany as that country smashed her way during the past three years from one grab to another. She went on with bluff, bluster and buncombe until to-day she challenges the very life and existence of Great Britain and France; she did it aid on loans from the allies-and now vulture Mussolini helps. All along Canada has refused to face the fact that our very existence is in danger.
On June 5 I asked the government:
What was the tonnage and value of pig iron, scrap iron and copper exported by Canada to Germany, Russia, Japan and Italy for each of the years 1935 to 1939?
How many tons of coal of all kinds were imported into Canada from Germany and Russia respectively, annually from 1934 to the end of 1939?
These questions were answered by an order for return, and I have the return before me. It shows how these exports helped Germany and Russia to re-arm; they used it to kill our men. It would be an alarming thing for the people of Canada to see what we have been doing in sending scrap to our enemies.


Georges Parent: I am sorry, but the hon. gentleman's time has elapsed.


Mr. L. P. PICARD (Bellechasse):: Mr. Speaker, the questions brought .to the fore by the study of the defence of Canada regulations, proposed by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) in the motion now before the house, are not light ones. They are sufficiently important to deserve thorough survey and investigation by anyone who has at heart the freedom and liberty of our institutions and the successful conclusion of our war activities. This is one of the reasons that prompt me to express to this house a few of the thoughts which have come to my mind when considering the issues involved in these measures.
Canada is a free country, chiefly inhabited by the sons of two great liberty-loving nations which have contributed more than any other nations to the cause of freedom and individual liberty. They stand now as the two great democracies of Europe, risking all their wealth, human and material, to defend their ideals of civilization against the barbarous assaults of the totalitarian states. Canada, a free nation,
fMr. Church.]
has joined the two countries that contributed to its birth in their crusade against the threat of slavery and the menace of despotism which overshadowed Europe at the time of the invasion of Poland. Canada is at war.
At a time like this we have to determine which of our liberties we will sacrifice temporarily in order to bring about the success of our cause. We must decide how we are to proceed to ensure the internal safety of our country, at the same time depriving our citizens of as few of their rights as possible. There is no doubt as to the necessity in time of war of suspending certain of our cherished privileges in order to combat new methods of warfare. If we are to benefit from the lessons given to us by the present conflict, it is time that we showed it. The sooner a committee of this house is set up to discuss the question and conscientiously examine the details of the defence of Canada regulations, the better. As the Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) have already pointed out to us, representations have been made from two directions, some alleging that the regulations were too drastic, and others that they did not permit sufficiently energetic action to ensure internal safety. A fair study of the question by a committee and its subsequent report should help to clarify the situation and contribute to a better understanding of these necessary steps which were taken by the government on the eve of the war.
I am one of those who believe, Mr. Speaker, that at no time has the government acted so expeditiously to meet an urgent situation as when the present government caused to be drafted and passed the order in council of September 3, 1939, which embodies the special regulations for the defence of Canada, derived from the authority of the War Measures Act. I will go further. I think that any unbiased person who carefully reads the regulations and the amendments subsequently made will be forced to admit that the government has acted not only swiftly but wisely as well, and that it has thereby provided the country with the necessary means, under the War Measures Act, to cope with most of the situations arising out of the war, whether concerning the economic life of the country or its security against internal troubles and sabotage. Few people in the country yet appreciate the full scope of these measures, but had it not been for the far-sighted action of the government in passing them, many citizens would long ago have been experiencing griefs caused by the innumerable abuses tlhat would have taken place chiefly in the economic sphere but which have been avoided by the regulations.

Defence of Canada Regulations
As to the control over trade, we have so far heard very little complaint, and rightly so. By the steps which the government took under the War Measures Act it has been able to stabilize prices, avoid profiteering and panicky reactions in the handling and merchandising of certain commodities. The very slight increase in the cost of living in Canada since the war started as compared with the increase that has taken place in other countries of the world is eloquent testimony to the wisdom of the action of the government in establishing these measures.
Strangely enough, this side of the question has not been the subject of many comments; is it that the freedom of trade has less appeal to the imagination than freedom of speech or freedom of the press? Or is it that the benefit of these regulations concerning the control of trade are so evident as to render any criticism impossible?
The main points with which we are faced to-day in the consideration of these regulations seem to concern, _on the one hand, the internal security of the country-that is, the preventing of sabotage, the treatment of aliens and the control of information-and, on the other hand, the limitations imposed on certain liberties which we have been used to consider in our democratic country as the essential right of every individual, namely, freedom of the press, the freedom of speech and the liberty of association. To these latter questions may be added the much discussed issue of the outlawing of certain associations and so-called political parties.
Let us first consider the internal security of the country. Some people in many sections of Canada have been driven to the verge of hysteria by the alarming pronouncements of certain men who should have known better than to treat injudiciously a question which they had not well investigated. If I may be permitted a personal reference I may say that when the proclamation under the War Measures Act which was issued on September 1, 1939, was being considered and when the order in council embodying the defence of Canada regulations rvas being drafted, I had the honour to serve under the Minister of Justice as his private secretary, and I can say that at no time have I seen such painstaking efforts as were made by the officials of the Department of Justice and of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to embody in this document all the items necessary to enable the government to cope in the event of war with any emergency affecting the internal security of the state. I might add that after a close association over many years with the heads of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police I can
safely say that they had at all times the situation well in hand. I know positively, Mr. Speaker, that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have to direct them, in the person of Brigadier Wood, a man of valour who knows the force better than any other man, and one who can get from it more service and greater devotion than any other commissioner ever did.


Jean-François Pouliot: Hear, hear.


Louis-Philippe Picard: He is a man whose coolness in any situation, coupled with an admirable clearness of mind and sincerity of purpose, is a guarantee of his fitness for the job in a period such as that through which we are passing. I do know also that he is assisted in the direction of the force by men who have had a splendid training and possess an enviable record of public service, and that they have under them a body of men of whom Canada may well be proud. The internal security of the country, the preventing of sabotage and the treatment of aliens have been entrusted to these men by the Minister of Justice, under whose direction they supervise and administer the defence of Canada regulations which have to do with the aforementioned questions. Therefore the country need not be alarmed; it has, under the authority of the Minister of Justice and the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the most capable and efficient body of men in Canada standing guard to protect and safeguard its security from within.
Another school of thought, Mr. Speaker, seems to be very much perturbed over the idea that certain of these regulations may infringe upon the rights and liberties of the citizens. Some go so far as to say that the main principle underlying the present conflict being the safeguarding of human liberties, we should in a truly democratic country make a point never to interfere with these sacred liberties. As I stated earlier in my remarks, we have to consider now what portion of our liberties we must temporarily sacrifice in order to render more effective our cooperative effort towards the victory of our ideals.
The present war is more than a war of nations; it is a war of cultures; it is a war between two moral doctrines, between " two systems of social, political and economic organization".
Our enemies have crushed all liberties and have subdued all individuals to the service of the state. They have thereby created a homogeneous entity deriving its strength from its unity of purpose and from the abandonment of the rights of the citizens. If we want to avoid the spreading of such a system to
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our hemisphere, is it not worth while for us to make voluntary sacrifices which are small indeed compared with those exacted from the peoples under German domination? I think the time is ill chosen by some people to complain about the veiy few restrictions which the war has made it necessary to impose on our liberties, when we consider what might happen to our allies and to ourselves should our enemies win the war.
As to the banning of the nazi, fascist and communist organizations in Canada, I do not think many in this house will question the advisability of the recent governmental decree. I for one rejoice over it. Those who still proclaim that this action is a blow to political liberties should think deeper. The nazi and fascist doctrines are rejected by all Canada, except possibly by a few erratic-minded persons, by some German and Italian nationals and by some naturalized Germans and Italians.
The doctrine of Aryan or German racial superiority, which is the basis of nazism, cannot appeal, I imagine, to any intelligent person outside Germany. The doctrine of the totalitarian states can appeal only to those who imagine that they could play in a regime of force a role they were never able to achieve in a free country. No sympathy that I know of has been directed therefore to the outlawed nazi and fascist organizations.
As to the banning of the communist party, nearly all the population have approved it, but it appeara that in certain sections efforts are made to have it considered as a first step endangering political liberties and freedom of thought. Some people argue that communism is an economic and social theory and therefore cannot be stopped. This is far from being true. Communism is a total doctrine offering its own specific solutions to all the great problems of man and life. It is a materialistic doctrine which is opposed to all that the western civilization has cherished since the advent of Christ. It has become more than that when put into practice; it has become a monstrous impersonation of the state over individuals and it has gone nearly as far as the nazi doctrine in destroying the minds of its subjects the better to enslave them. Some of the economic and social ideals of communism might have appealed in the past to a number of young minds in quest of a different economic system. It is true that our present system has allowed many faults and abuses to permeate it. It is true that humanity will ever strive towards an ideal of general welfare and always tend to reach the stage when the largest percentage of the population will have

the minimum elementary comforts which the present system has not yet found a way to grant to such a large number of human beings. It may be that the world will evolve many systems before it finds the right one, if it ever does; but I personally am convinced, Mr. Speaker, that communism, as practised actually in certain parts of the world, is not the panacea for all ills its advocates want us to believe. It has become repugnant to most of us not so much because of the nature of its ideals as because of the methods it has used. No real Liberal at heart can approve the crushing of liberty that has taken place in the name of communism. No real Liberal can accept the negation of the liberty of creed, nay, the negation of all creeds which the communist state has made a part of its programme. If communism had been only a social and economic theory, it might have been permitted to have a certain amount of speculative thought, but if we consider its entire aspects and if we analyse its method of operation in Russia we only too well realize the danger of its doctrines. Liberty of the masses has become oppression of the masses; liberty of thought has become compulsion of thought.
Communism has been the absolute negation of liberalism. While liberalism fights for the liberty of creed, communism has denied the right to believe and ha? persecuted all creeds. While liberalism stands, in normal times, for the liberty of speech, of press and of thought, communism means compulsion and negation. All true liberals, all true Canadians, will approve the action of the government in outlawing the communist party.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that it is the duty of all Canadians to help the government enforce the defence of Canada regulations. The committee which is the object of this motion will report to us if it deems advisable to alter them. We shall have the opportunity of expressing our views before doing so. Until then let us trust the government to carry on the task of using these regulations to safeguard the internal security of the country.
Canada will not let its internal enemies use free speech to deprive its people of it.
Canada will not let them use the right of assembly to organize semi-military associations.
Canada will not allow the freedom of the press to cover up traitorous propaganda.
Canada will not let the fifth columnists run down its form of government to help the enemy.


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[Stage Direction]
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Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale):: Mr. Speaker, the statement which the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) gave to the house on Monday of last week, while helpful in some respects, does not deal with an important aspect of the situation. The scolding which he administered to those of us who are seriously concerned about possible fifth column activities will not help to relieve our anxieties.
It is foolish for the dominion leaders to deny that they have been lax in the matter of rounding up the agitators. For many months now, action has been awaited, but the government has apparently been waiting for the various groups to start something and then it will be too late.
The Minister of Justice stated on Monday of last week that no active sabotage had yet taken place. Surely he does not intend the police force to continue to stand idly by watching aliens, and do nothing until they have committed sabotage. The world has had many illustrations of the serious consequences of fifth column activities. There is no doubt now that the break through of the powerful German mechanized army into neutral countries was made possible by fifth column traitors in those countries. We have, in addition, the great betrayal by a king, which jeopardized the safety of the British and French forces in Belgium, while they were responding to his urgent call for help, but thank God the day was saved almost by a miracle - the glorious, almost impossible achievement of the British army, navy and air force, ably assisted by her illustrious ally, France. When even a king was capable of being a traitor to his own people and to his allies, why should there be any qualms about interning, until the war is won, all suspected aliens of German birth? Now that Mussolini has taken his appointed place among our treacherous enemies, enemies also of mankind, will the Minister of Justice give an assurance to the house that he will immediately make use of the powers vested in him by regulation 21 of the defence of Canada regulations?
The Minister of Justice told us that the police were keeping careful watch on these people now increased in number by the entry of Italy into the war, but I ask him how this is possible when the whole Royal Canadian Mounted Police, even with the additional five hundred which he promises, will enable us to have only one member of this force per mile across Canada from east to west and none at all from north to south? Even if supplemented by the local police, and by the small home guard of three thousand, spread over our vast country they are powerless to prevent sabotage. The fact that as yet none
has taken place in no way allays our fears. The fifth column working underground was so successful in Oslo that fifteen hundred Germans succeeded in capturing a town of
300,000	inhabitants without a shot being fired.
A number of members of this house have already drawn the attention of the government to the exposed position of some of our great public utilities.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) in the house yesterday stated that at the beginning the government was criticized on the ground that the regulations were too severe, and is criticized now on the ground that they are not severe enough. My criticism is simply that the Minister of Justice has failed to use the power vested in him by regulation 21, and as a consequence there are thousands of potential quislings entirely free to roam about our country, to prepare plans in advance and to strike and perhaps cripple us at vital points at the moment when it suits their employers to have them do so.


Arthur Graeme Slaght: Will the hon. member permit a question now, or would he have me wait?


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I would rather finish, if the hon. member does not mind.
May I refer to a speech dealing in part with this grave question of subversive activities delivered on Friday last, June 7, by a prominent Liberal, Hon. Gordon D. Conant, attorney general of Ontario. He was speaking at a banquet of the University college Alumni association in Hart house, Toronto, and specifically dealt with the following statement recently made in this house by the Minister of Justice:
It is a great disservice to Canada and the allied cause to spread stories that Canada is filled with enemy agents and enemy sympathizers.
The attorney general said that if in this statement the minister meant that exaggerated and alarmist stories are a disservice, he entirely agreed. But he could not agree that it is a disservice to discuss and to make known conditions which on reasonable and proper grounds are believed to exist. The danger, he held, is much more likely to be overcome by realizing and facing the facts than by closing our eyes to them. Nor could he, from his daily experience with subversive activities, and reliable information in his possession, share the confidence of the Minister of Justice that the so-called fifth column is being adequately met by the police and the authorized military guards. Mr. Conant agreed that the police were aware of most, if not all, the enemies within our gates,

Dejence oj Canada Regulations
but could not agree that at present these subversives were being dealt with adequately. No man is in a better position to speak with authority on the problem than the attorney general of a province, charged as he is with the responsibility of administering the law; and Mr. Conant pointed out that the remedy is in the minister's own hands, readily available and not difficult to apply. The minister has the power to intern all suspects subject to their right of appeal. That, says Mr. Conant, is the only proper and effective way to meet the present very serious emergency. The minister has already taken such action in certain cases, and it is simply a matter of extending the exercise of his powers. Mr. Conant made it clear that he did not suggest interning everybody concerning whom there is rumour or gossip. So far as Ontario is concerned, there is ample evidence on file in various police departments regarding persons engaged in subversive activities and he would gladly furnish the Department of Justice with the relevant facts.
He commended and congratulated the minister on having advised the government to declare illegal a number of subversive organizations, but appeals to him to go a step further. As matters now stand it would be very difficult to prove that an individual was a member of an unlawful organization on or after June 6, when the proscription came into effect. Persons bold enough to commit overt acts can be easily detected; but there remain the secret meetings and the insidious propaganda which must be dealt with in another way. The minister, he said, had power to deal with the matter by interning all persons, who, after proper investigation and on reasonable grounds, are believed to be members of subversive organizations; subject always to the right of appeal.
The province of Ontario is making an effort to provide protection against fifth column activities by the organization of volunteer civil guards, and it is hoped that it will help to meet the situation. But it would be far better if this were undertaken by the federal government, which, under the constitution, is vested with control of all matters having to do with militia and defence. It is contrary to our scheme of confederation that an army should be developed in any province at the command or under the jurisdiction of any official of that province. I think this house will agree with the attorney general of Ontario that it would be more in keeping with the continuance of our national structure if the organization of civil guards, aimed at protection against subversive activities, were taken over by the federal government.

For the purpose of clarity may I say that subversive elements may be divided broadly into two classes-namely, first, enemy aliens, and second, all others. "All others" include British subjects and nationals of any country with which we are not at present at war. Under the defence of Canada regulations, the Minister of Justice deals with all enemy aliens by interning them, or by leaving them at large on terms that they report, e.t cetera. Up to the present, and subject to the exception arising out of the arrests in Toronto on or about May 28, when two persons were taken into custody and interned under regulation 21 without any court procedure or trial, or anything else, it has been left for the attorney general of a province to deal with all subversive elements other than enemy aliens, although the Minister of Justice has ample power to deal with these people under regulation 21, by interning them the same as enemy aliens. Leaving it for the attorney general of a province to deal wTith these subversive elements-other than enemy aliens-has the following result:
(a)	The attorney general can only act after an overt act has been committed, that is, when the person has actually done or said something that constitutes a violation of the regulations.
On the other hand, under regulation 21, the Minister of Justice could intern on reasonable grounds and before an overt act has been committed.
(b)	The attorney general can only proceed in the regular course of law, subject to all the procedure and rules of evidence.
This involves strict proof "beyond a reasonable doubt". The general principle of law applies in the defence of Canada regulations, namely, that the crown must prove its case beyond a "reasonable doubt".
In the order in council dated June 6, 1940, regulation 39(c) was added to the defence of Canada regulations, declaring certain organizations to be illegal organizations. Under regulation 39(c), subsection 3, if a person is charged with continuing to be a member of an illegal organization, as evidenced by attendance, public advocacy and distribution of literature, it shall be presumed in the absence of proof to the contrary, that he is a member of such illegal organization. This, in fact, throws the onus on the accused person to prove that he is not a member of such illegal organization. In this sense, the expression "proof beyond reasonable doubt" is qualified; but when one remembers that proof must still be obtained of "attending at, publicly advocating, or distributing literature", there is a heavy onus of proof still remaining. Evidence

Defence of Canada Regulations
will be difficult because these people will always try to lie themselves out of any charge. On the contrary, the Minister of Justice can act on any evidence as he sees fit. For example, if the attorney general of a province reports to the Minister of Justice that his police had fully investigated, say, "John Smith", and that in his opinion he should be interned, that might be regarded as sufficient to justify the internment of the man. It would amount to nothing, however, in a court of law.
Procedure by the attorney general of a province in the ordinary courts of law makes it impossible to deal with most of these subversive people because of the rules of evidence, the burden of proof and so on, and also because witnesses are reluctant to appear in court because of fear that some retribution may be visited upon them. On the contrary, a witness could give his evidence to the Minister of Justice by way of affidavit or otherwise. No person would ever know that he had given such evidence, and he would be under no fear of dire consequences.
Procedure in the courts of law involves delay and, of course, expense. The procedure may involve first, a preliminary hearing before a magistrate; then, if he is committed, a trial before a judge or before a judge and jury. While the attorney general has the right to require them to be tried before a magistrate, he is always on the horns of a dilemma in such cases, because the punishment when tried before a magistrate is much lighter than when tried on indictment, so that in serious cases an attorney general, to do his full duty, must direct trial on indictment before a judge or before a judge and jury; and this, of course, involves further delay, particularly if it is before a judge and jury which must wait for an assize or the sessions. After the trial is all over, in whatever tribunal he may be tried, the person has the right to appeal, which may involve a further delay of perhaps as much as two months.
The Minister of Justice has made reference in the house to the order made by Mr. Justice Chevrier, rather suggesting that with this further instrument communists could be suppressed. In the first place, the order of Mr. Justice Chevrier was based on the conviction of the Binders and Saunders. All three of these defendants have appealed. If the Minister of Justice had not declared the communist party to be an illegal organization, by order in council dated June 6, the illegality of the communist party would depend entirely upon the success or failure of the Binder appeal. Even if the order is confirmed by reason of the convictions being confirmed, the
scope is very narrow and limited. Regulation 39(c)3, order of June 6, should define "meeting" to include concerts or social gatherings of any kind, or any gathering or concert held under the auspices of any of the organizations named in the June 6 order, or meetings held under any other organization, group or individual, where speeches of a communistic character are made or where a communist takes an active part in the meetings. Such an eventuality should be covered by the order in council. There is always difficulty in getting evidence because of the secretive nature of these organizations. Drive them under cover by banning public meetings, and they will still be able to hold small meetings in private houses.
It would not be sufficient to prove that a person was a communist or that he held communistic views, and so on. The crown would have to prove that he was a member of the communist party of Canada since the Chevrier order dated May 15, 1940. It would not be sufficient to prove that he was a member of the communist party of Canada a week, a month or a year before. Under these circumstances it can be assumed that the number of cases in which the crown could succeed on these very strict and narrow grounds would be extremely small. The evidence in the hands of the police that the individual was a member of a communist organization between September 3, 1939, and June 6, 1940, cannot be used unless the order in council is made retroactive to September 3, 1939.
I understand that the province of Ontario has prosecuted and convicted more persons under the defence of Canada regulations than all the other provinces combined, but in spite of this they have only scratched the surface. I understand that the police of the province of Ontario and the Toronto city police have in their files scores of cases which should be seriously considered for internment, and that most of those concerned should be interned.
One of the most disturbing factors in the present war has been the effective use made by the Germans of the secret agent. These secret agents have gathered information concerning the location of troops and of military objectives. Is there any wonder that our citizens are alarmed lest we suffer as have Norway, Denmark, Holland and Belgium? Has the minister received a communication from the police association of Ontario stating that they have information respecting persons regarding whom complaints have been received as to their nazi or fascist activities, as well as persons known to have been active in communistic organizations of this province? Has
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the minister received from this association a list of names of persons who should immediately be placed in internment camps, because of the danger of obstructing directly or indirectly Canada's war effort?
In all of these cases, however, the police are not able to adduce evidence to bring them into court, either because they have committed no overt act or because witnesses cannot be induced to appear in court to give evidence to convict them. If the Minister of Justice would exercise the power vested in him under regulation 21, the procedure would be very simple and about as follows: Upon receipt of representations that any person should be interned-which representations might be made by any chief of police, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Ontario provincial police or the attorney general-he would refer the matter to an organization within his department, headed perhaps by the deputy minister of justice and including other legal and police officials. That organization would sift the evidence and recommend to the Minister of Justice what should be done. He would then either act on the recommendation or ask for further evidence as he might see fit. It must be remembered that anybody interned by the Minister of Justice has the right to appeal to a tribunal which it is the minister's duty to set up. This tribunal under the regulations is presided over by a judge of a superior court. It will be clear, therefore, that no great hardship would be done if a person were improperly interned; no doubt the tribunal would straighten it out in short order. It is conceivable that if the minister exercises his powers under regulation 21 some few persons might be improperly interned. It becomes a question, therefore, as to whether the inconvenience of these few persons should weigh against the safety or perhaps the survival of the state.
I have been in contact with police authorities and find them seriously alarmed about the freedom allowed to enemy aliens and the subversive elements in this country. They cannot understand the complacency with which this dangerous situation is being met. Internment is not a fitting punishment for some of these people. Should not the Minister of Justice profit by the example of Great Britain and France and take capital power, and when necessary enforce it? I am not arguing for this method of dealing with crime in peace time, but it is essential in time of war. If Canadian lives are lost as a consequence of not using the power given under regulation 21, a heavy responsibility will rest on the shoulders of the Minister of Justice.

In order not to delay the house I will hand in a list of organizations and publications which have not yet been outlawed by the government, but which should be banned forthwith. All these have been actively associated with the spreading of subversion. Some may be inactive at the present time, but there is a danger that they may again become active in order to take the place of organizations which have been outlawed. With the consent of the house may I place the list on Hansard without reading it?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: Shall I read it?


William Earl Rowe: Read it, then.


An hon. MEMBER:: Read it all.


Mr. DUPUIS:: You are getting plenty of practice; read it.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I shall now read into the record the names of organizations and publications which as yet have not been outlawed or banned by the government. All have been actively associated with the spreading of subversion. Some may be inactive at the present time, but there is a danger that they may again become active, in order to take the place of organizations which have been outlawed.


James Layton Ralston: Is my hon. friend making the statement, himself, that all these organizations have been guilty of subversion, or is it made on information received? On what is so wide and general a statement made?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think the hon. member should be cross-examined.


James Layton Ralston: I am not cross-examining, but I want to know whether the hon. member makes the statement himself, or whether it is made on information received.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He has made the statement.


William Earl Rowe: The government has been asking for it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Read the list.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: The list of organizations is-


James Layton Ralston: Does the hon. member object to my interruption?


Herbert Alexander Bruce: No.


James Layton Ralston: I have asked whether the statement that these different organizations are all guilty of subversion is made on my hon. friend's personal knowledge, or on information which he has received?

The King's. Birthday


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I have no objection to answering the question.


James Layton Ralston: I thought my hon. friend had not heard it.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: It is from information received from police authorities.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


James Layton Ralston: Where?


Herbert Alexander Bruce: I think I shall let it go at that.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Earl Rowe: You don't answer everything that is not in the public interest, either.


Vincent Dupuis: But that is in the public interest.


William Earl Rowe: You were asking for this only the other day.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: The following is the list of organizations:
Canadian Youth Congress.
Czecho-Slovakian Workers Club.
Freiheit Choir.
German Workers and Farmers Association (Communist).
Housewives Association (Communist).
Independent Mutual Benefit Society.
International League for Peace and Freedom.
International Left Opposition of Canada (Trotskyites).
Jehovah's Witnesses.
Jugo-Slav Educational Bureau.
Labour League Mutual Benefit Society.
Macedonian-Bulgarian Society.
National Children's Council.
Progressive Arts Club.
Theatre of Action.
Women's Labour League.
Workers' Educational Carpathian Association.
Workers' Sports Association.
Workers' International Relief.
The Housewives Association is well recognized as a communist organization.
The first publication I have listed is known as Always Ready. The next is The Beacon which, I believe, is the official organ of the Young Communist League. Next is the Canadian Tribune, which I am informed has practically taken the place of the Clarion. Then comes Clos Pracy, a Polish Communist publication, and then follow:	Munkas, New
Advance, People's Gazette, The Road, Slobodna Misao, Vapaus.
Now, Mr. Speaker-


Ernest Lapointe: If the
hon. member has not completed his observations, I would suggest that he adjourn the debate.
On motion of Mr. Bruce the debate was adjourned.
On motion of Mr. Lapointe (Quebec East) the house adjourned at 5.15 p.m.
Thursday, June 13, 1940