1940-08-06

VIMY MEMORIAL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Rght Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Hon. members will be
pleased to know that I have received from our high commissioner in the United Kingdom a telegram saying that the air ministry states that an air photograph of Vimy memorial recently taken does not show any damage.



OIL CONTROL


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. M. NICHOLSON (Mackenzie):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). On July 22 the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) asked a question regarding the crude oil supply as it affected the Consumers' Cooperative Refineries, Regina, Saskatchewan. I have a copy of the Saskatchewan Cooperative Consumer in which it is reported that no attempt has been made 95826-160
by the federal oil controller to apportion the available supplies of crude in an equitable manner. I wonder whether the minister could make any further statement beyond what he made on July 22 with regard to this very important matter.


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Munitions and Supply):: I have no further information
on the subject, but I will make additional inquiries.



UNEMPLOYED MINERS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Public Works and Transport):: A few days ago
the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) drew attention to the conditions of the miners in the river Herbert and Joggins districts of Cumberland county, Nova Scotia. I promised him that I would refer the matter to the Canadian National Railways, and am this morning in a position to answer the question through information which has been given to me. It is stated in the report which I have received that for the seven months ended July 31, 1940, orders have been placed for 34,478 tons of coal, while during the same period of 1939 the amount was 16,512 tons, showing an increase of over one hundred per cent in the orders given in the Maccan district. During the month of July the total was 5,560 tons, compared with 1,700 tons taken in July of last year.
I may add that, as a result of an agreement reached during July between the Canadian National Railway officials and operators of coal mines in the Maccan district, an increase of 25 cents per ton has been granted. Canadian National Railways officials are watching closely the situation with a view to helping as much as possible the miners of that district.



PRISONERS OF WAR


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I have received a letter in which the complaint is made that the German war prisoners interned in this country are receiving favoured treatment. I will later send to the minister a copy, but I wonder if he is in a position to-day to make any statement in that regard.


Hon. P. F. CASGRAIN (Secretary of State):: If the hon. member will submit the letter to me I will look into it.

Supply-External Affairs



The house in committee of supply, Mr. Vien in the chair.


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
[Stage Direction]
il. Departmental administration, $181,760.
Mr. STIRLING:: I wonder if the Prime Minister would see fit to make a short statement in regard to our relations with representatives of the occupied countries-Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium and France-and give some idea to the public as to how representations are exchanged between these representatives and in what language they talk.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As my hon. friend is aware, the representatives whom Canada has had in certain of the occupied countries-Belgium, Holland and France in particular-are at the moment for the most part in London, where they are associated with other diplomatic representatives who are in that capital. They are in a position to be in contact immediately with these representatives, and with the dominions and the foreign offices, and through Canada's high commissioner, to obtain such information as they deem it desirable that our government should have from various sources there. They are also in a position to communicate such information as the Canadian government deems it advisable to have dispatched to our representatives concerning matters affecting these particular countries or to others who are making inquiries. I do not know that I can express more specifically the present relationship. It is the only one that seems possible at the present time.


Mr. GREEN:: In connection with applications for passports, I suggest that the Department of External Affairs might consider allowing other officials or persons to take the declaration required upon an application. At the present time, for example, a justice of the peace cannot take the declaration nor can a member of parliament, and perhaps it would save a good deal of trouble if that privilege were extended to other classes.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot say more than that the suggestion seems to be a reasonable one and that I shall be glad to see if something of the kind cannot be arranged.


Howard Charles Green: Arising out of the passport question, may I point out that many people from western Canada are obliged to get passports in order to drive back through the United States, and that has brought to the fore the question of the completion of the trans-Canada highway. While it may not be

strictly in order on this item, I would ask the Prime Minister to let us have some statement with reference to the highway at the moment. A month or two ago the gap in British Columbia known as Big Bend gap was completed and there now remains a distance of only from 135 to 150 miles in northern Ontario which has not been completed. According to press dispatches, about a month ago the deputy minister of highways in Ontario said that there was no chance now of that gap being completed until after the war. He said it would cost between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000 and that there was alien labour available to assist in the work, but he thought it would be impossible to go ahead at the moment. The completion of the highway would be of inestimable value in many ways. It would be a great tourist attraction, it would enable our people to drive from one coast to the other, it would provide employment for young men who are not fit to go into the army and there is this alien labour available, and it might also be of vital importance to the defence of the country.
In view of the fact that there is such a short gap remaining to be completed I would urge upon the Prime Minister that steps be taken at once to complete the highway. I am confident it would be a good thing for Canada.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot recollect a month when the subject has not come before council in one way or another. The question has been largely one of relative expense and what it was wisest to do at the particular moment. On some occasions it has been suggested that internees should be used for the purpose; sometimes the suggestion has been that the unemployed be assigned to this particular work. Each time the matter has been considered there has been a special reason for refraining from either acting at the moment or taking some particular action, but I can assure my hon. friend that the desire of the government is to have the highway completed and the matter will continue to receive consideration as opportunities arise to have the work on it progress.


Mr. ADAMSON:: Could prisoners of war be used on such work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That question is being considered. I understand it is more or less necessary to keep in mind what is being done in other countries with prisoners of war of British origin. Matters of that sort enter into the consideration of what we should do here.

Supply-External Affairs


Howard Charles Green: The same considerations
would not apply with respect to aliens interned in Canada. They could be used, could they not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should not like to say offhand that they could or could not. That question is being explored, but what action will be taken I cannot say at the moment. However, if it is possible to give employment to those who are unemployed, whether internees or others, the desire is to have them employed in work of the kind.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: That is an important issue at this time. There is no use our calmly saying there is no danger of either the Canadian National or the Canadian Pacific being blown up. It would be an easy act of sabotage on the part of communists or fifth columnists to blow up either of these railways or possibly both, and if that were done it would be an utter impossibility for us to connect eastern with western Canada. The work would be delayed for some time until the roads were repaired. On the other hand, if we had a completed highway it would be almost impossible for any fifth column activity to separate east and west. Moreover, we should save quite a few dollars if we had that road completed, because almost every member of parliament this session must go through the United States, if he is driving home, in order to get home, whereas it would be much more convenient to remain in Canada on the way home. It would save a great deal of expense, and one would not have so far to go. As it is, one has to go 3,000 miles to get to Alberta. Again, it would be a saving in foreign exchange, to say nothing of the urgent necessity of having the road completed.


Mr. HAZEN:: May I address a question to the Prime Minister? Shortly after Great Britain was reluctantly obliged to take over the French fleet the French government severed connections with the British government and the French ambassador handed in his letters at the Court of St. James. Shortly before this unfortunate event a new representative to the French government was sent to Ottawa. If I am in order I should like to ask what is the present relation between the Canadian government and the representative of the French government in Ottawa.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say as hon. members are well aware, that in the relations between countries to-day there are many situations that are extremely difficult, some of which are quite serious and others of which are most critical. Speaking broadly, the attitude of the Canadian government
towards all these situations has been to endeavour so to shape its course as to help relieve the tension where it is possible to do so, and to avoid adding any fuel to the flames where that aim also can be attained.
With respect to the relations of the United Kingdom and France a)t the present time I need not say that to a certain extent they are obscure. There has been a certain severance of relations, but not a complete severance. I understand the consuls general of France are all at the present discharging their duties normally in the United Kingdom as they have hitherto done. As far as Canada is concerned our position has been to permit the minister who has come to Canada from France to remain. He understands that the situation is a delicate one and that he is here with a view of assisting our government to meet questions as they arise rather than to do anything directly or indirectly which would serve to embarrass the government. The position as far as our relationship with France is concerned is well known and understood in the United Kingdom. I believe we are helping to meet the desire of the United Kingdom government in not severing diplomatic relations to the extent of asking the present minister to retire. I belive a similar attitude is being taken on the part of South Africa towards its representative from France. Certainly as between this country and the French people there has always been the closest and friendliest kind of relationship. France has been the ally of the United Kingdom more than once and we certainly hope that the day will come when relations will be restored to the old normal happy state that has existed in past years. In the interval if there is anything we can do to further that end, and avoid, as I have said, any new issue arising, I think it should be done. And it is on that basis that the relationship is being maintained as it is at the present time.


Douglas King Hazen: What I had in mind was this. The French government to-day is apparently under the domination of the German government, and there must be communications passing from the French representative here to the French government in France, which communications must be available to the German government. Is there any control over the communications that pass from the French representative in this country to the French government? Is the French representative free to send any communication he likes, which would be available to the German government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If there were the slightest reason to believe that the present French representative was able to obtain any information that is not common information,
Supply-External Affairs

that might be of the least help to the German government, I imagine he would, not himself wish to stay for an hour, and certainly this government would not permit him to stay. But I have every reason to believe that M. Ristelhueber, the present minister, is a very honourable man and certainly in his relation to the administration with respect to the different and difficult questions which have come up he has given us every reason to believe that his sole desire is similar to our own, namely, in the existing very painful situation to do all he can to help relieve difficulties rather than add to them.


Mr. POULIOT:: Referring to section 56
of the British North America Act, would the Prime Minister be kind enough to tell the committee whether authentic copies of acts of parliament are forwarded to the office of the governor general by the Department of External Affairs or by the clerk of the privy council.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is a question which I cannot answer offhand.


Jean-François Pouliot: Then in case of doubt I hope the Prime Minister would not object to a few remarks about the status of Canada, that does not enjoy now what the Oxford dictionary calls the treatment of Tiberius. Some years ago Sir Wilfrid Laurier said that Canada was a nation in the British empire, but he did not imply by that that Canada was a free nation or a sovereign nation. I find it very dangerous to say that Canada is a nation, impljdng by that that Canada is a free nation or a sovereign nation; for of course we are not. There are very few hon. members in this house who entertain the view that Canada is a colony. There is the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church) and the hon. member for Yukon (Mr. Black)-a former Speaker of the House-and the member for Temis-couata (Mr. Pouliot). The reason we think Canada is a colony is that even for a small affair such as the right to pass an act like the unemployment insurance act we have to snap our fingers to Westminster, asking the right to do that. I find it a great humiliation, not because I am anti-British but because I am pro-Canadian.
Of course there are children of minor age, under twenty-one years, who need a guardian. And there are others who are of mature age and can act for themselves. Canada cannot dispose of its own legislation at times without asking Westminster's permission. In my humble opinion the first thing to do regarding international affairs would be to ask Westminster to withdraw from the constitution the disallowance clauses of the British North America Act. I draw the attention of my

chief and of the committee to the absurd situation in which this parliament is placed when certified copies of the acts passed by this parliament, meaning the House of Commons and the Senate, and assented to by His Excellency the Governor General, who is the representative of His Majesty the King of Canada, are forwarded, in accordance with section 56, to one of his majesty's principal secretaries of state. I will read the section:
56. Where the governor general assents to a bill in the Queen's name, he shall by the first convenient opportunity send an authentic copy of the Act to one of her majesty's principal secretaries of state, and if the Queen in council within two years after receipt thereof by the Secretary of State thinks fit to disallow the act, since disallowance (with a certificate of the secretary of the day on which the act was received by him) being signified by the governor general, by speech or message to each of the houses of the parliament or by proclamation, shall annul the act from and after the day of such signification.
Section. 57 is to the same effect. The absurd situation is this: In May of last year his majesty came to Canada and gave his personal assent to certain bills. Of course we presumed that this was final, that the bills assented to by the king of Canada would not be sent by the governor general's secretary to the secretary for the dominions in London, and that the king of England would not have two years in which to disallow the legislation to which he had given his own assent as king of Canada. That is a most amazing situation. We may be told, of course, that these sections are spent, that they are not in force at the present time. But if certified copies of our acts are sent to the secretary for the dominions, now that Canada is enjoying the so-called benefits of the statute of Westminster, just the same as they were when Canada was recognized as a colony at the time the British North America Act was passed, what has been our progress?
One may say, of course, that there is no question of disallowance in connection with any act of this parliament. That is only a presumption, because no one can say that on some future occasion Westminster may not do what this government has properly done in the case of Alberta. There was no disallowance of provincial legislation for a great many years, but lately when a provincial premier passed some legislation which evidently was unconstitutional, it was disallowed. I do not blame the government for doing that; it was the right thing to do, but who knows What may be done in the future so far as our acts are concerned?
The only way we can have patriotic citizens in Canada is to teach them what our nation really is and tell them exactly what our con-

Supply-External Affairs
stitution means. We want our constitution to be respected; I am all for that, but that constitution must make Canadians proud of their country and proud of their citizenship. We must be just as proud as the old Romans, who said, Civis Romanus sum-"I am a Roman citizen". We should be proud to be Canadian citizens. When a young boy is taught in school that he has the privilege of being a Canadian he must say the same thing, "I am proud to be a young Canadian", and that pride will last until the end of his days.
I should like to mention one thing that does not satisfy my mind. When Sir John Macdonald spent some summers at St. Patrick, in my constituency, he wrote a letter to one of his friends saying it was his intention that Canada should be called a kingdom. That was objected to by Lord Derby, and he made a few amusing remarks about that gentleman. Sir John Macdonald was one of the fathers of confederation, a great man, one of the builders of this country, and also a good Britisher. He thought Canada should be called a kingdom, but his lordship was afraid of what might be the effect in the United States, and he said no. On May 19 of last year something was said in this parliament which appears at page 4323 of Hansard:
May the blessing of divine providence rest upon your labours and upon my realm of Canada.
Those were the words of his majesty, spoken in this city, but surely his majesty is a king without a kingdom as far as Canada is concerned, because Canada is only a dominion. That may sound strange, but I try to proceed with logic. We have the king of Canada; we were told that according to the statute of Westminster the governor general no longer represented the British government but represented only his majesty, and that in fact he was a viceroy. That is all right, and later we had a high commissioner from England representing the British government. There was a division of responsibility; but what surprised me was that though many prominent people in Canada stated that the appointment of the governor general was made on the recommendation of the Canadian government, the present governor general, who was selected by this government after the statute of Westminster was passed, is the same gentleman who was selected by Great Britain before that statute was passed. I find that strange. I say this without meaning the least offence at all. I have great respect and admiration for the gentleman who now occupies that high post with great dignity. These, however, are some of the things that I cannot easily understand.
We have representatives abroad; for instance, we have legations. I was in Washington early in May and called at the Canadian legation, where I was told that the minister was suffering from jaundice, probably because he had been too close to the Japanese or the Chinese embassy. I spoke to the charg6 d'affaires over the telephone for about half an hour, during which I asked him many questions. United States is probably one of the last countries in the world where international law is respected. I studied international law in my youth; it is one of the most interesting branches of the legal profession. During that long conversation I asked the charge d'affaires if he had had any training in international law, and to my great surprise he said no. I was really rather scandalized.
For a number of years we have had a Canadian legation in Japan. I presume it is very important that the Canadian ministers and members of the staff should be well posted on Japanese questions. I wonder whether any minister or any Canadian member of the staff, down to the last messenger, has been able to speak the Japanese language. To understand the situation in Japan, to learn anything about the matters that were of importance to us, they have had to rely upon the paid help of Japanese-born people, who could commit any barbarisms or make any errors in translation that might suit theif own patriotic purposes. I do not see how we could maintain a legation in Japan without having there Canadian citizens who could fluently speak, read and write the Japanese language.
Of course the impression is conveyed throughout the world that Canada is a nation. Some diplomats, who are very courteous, accept the statement that Canada ranks as a free nation, though we are not such a nation in fact for the reason I have mentioned and others to which I shall come in a moment. I wonder what change the statute of Westminster may have made in our external relations, either with Great Britain or with any other country. Section 7 of that statute reads:
Nothing in this act shall be deemed to apply to the repeal, amendment or alteration of the British North America Acts, 1867 to 1930, or any order, rule or regulation made thereunder.
This means that the statute of Westminster does not repeal that part of the British North America Act concerning disallowance of our legislation.
Besides disallowance other matters have been mentioned, as indicated in Hansard of September 9, 1939, by my very good and respected friend the right hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe). Having stated that
Supply-External Affairs

we cannot amend the constitution of Canada in any way without applying to the parliament at Westminster, he said:
It is our own will-I am not saying mine, but the will of the majority-that it should be so, and it is still so. How can we say that we have no bond with the parliament which gives us our power to legislate as it exists to-day?
The minister said it was not his own view; it was the view of the majority. I point out to him it was never submitted to the majority-never. It was never submitted to the Canadian people. I am sure if this matter were submitted to the Canadian people the answer would be this: We desire to have the right to amend our own constitution.
Then the. right hon. gentleman mentioned appeals to the privy council, and said:
. . . the lawyers of the province of Quebec were trusting more in the lords of the privy jouncil for their judicial decisions than in the majority of the Supreme Court of Canada, coming from the other provinces.
That is right. And he added:
Well, if some of our leading men who entertain these views now are for the neutrality of Canada, they still desire that judicial decisions affecting Canada shall be given by the judges in England.
Properly so. The minister was right about that. The reason is obvious, namely, that the judges of the privy council have a much more complete training than have the Canadian judges.


The CHAIRMAN:: From the beginning of this session I have allowed the discussion of matters not arising from the items under consideration. Sometimes, with the consent of the minister concerned, the practice has developed of discussing, under the item of departmental administration, questions affecting departmental policies. That is not in conformity with standing order 58 (2). That subsection provides that in discussing an item only matters relating to it may properly be discussed.
In the present instance, details of departmental administration appear at page 80 of the estimates. Hon. members will find nothing there which would justify, at this time, a discussion of the expediency of amending the British North America Act or of abolishing the right of appeal to the judicial committee of the privy council. That discussion is as foreign to the business before the committee as the discussion respecting the international highway, which arose a few minutes ago. One breach of the rules always entails several others following in its wake. Without unanimous consent, suspending subsection 2 of standing order 58, it is my duty as chair-

man to draw attention to standing order 58, and to apply it.
A discussion respecting section 56 of the British North America Act might be appropriate under the item concerning the governor general, his excellency having the duty of referring to his majesty bills he has sanctioned. But it is not admissible under the present item. It is difficult for the chairman to be fair to all hon. members and to draw the line in debate unless there is strict adherence to the rules of the house.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman, may I say with respect to what you have just said that so far as I personally am concerned I have no desire in any way to circumscribe the latitude of the discussion, beyond this, that I believe there are times and seasons for all things. I believe it is the desire of all hon. members to have parliament adjourn as soon as possible, and I believe, too, that there are occasions more appropriate than the present to discuss important constitutional questions such as these having to do with the present status of Canada and the power of disallowance.
These matters are very important. In fact their importance is so great that I believe this would not be the best moment at which to provoke a debate on either subject. The answer to the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) with respect to the power of disallowance is that it was unanimously agreed at conferences in 1929 and 1930 that the present constitutional position is that the power of disallowance of dominion statutes could not be exercised without the consent of the dominion. The United Kingdom's power of disallowance is thus recognized, I may say to him, as being constitutionally dead, if not yet legally buried.
As to Canada's power to amend her own constitution, I suggest no better example could be given than that which has taken place in this very session, whereby the United Kingdom government upon presentation of an address from both houses of this parliament with respect to the amending of the constitution in one particular, did so within a limit, taken altogether, of something considerably less than an hour's time. I am referring to the discussion which took place in both houses of parliament in the United Kingdom on the amendment with respect to unemployment insurance.
If we continue to amend our constitution by way of presentation of an address to the United Kingdom parliament it is because it suits our convenience so to do, or helps to meet feelings, for the present at any rate, which some entertain, with respect to the wisdom of preserving that method of procedure.

Supply-External Affairs
It is not, however, at all an evidence of subordination.
If to-morrow this .parliament were by an address to ask the British parliament to enact an amendment which would permit us to amend our own constitution, that amendment would, I believe, be passed by the United Kingdom parliament just as speedily as the one which was passed at this session with respect to amending our constitution in the important particular I have mentioned.


Mr. HOMUTH:: Would the Prime Minister make a statement respecting passport offices? Are all the offices which were opened still functioning, or have some been closed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I made a short statement yesterday respecting the position in regard to passport offices. I believe it is a fact that all passports for which applications had been made had been issued at the close of last week. I believe, too, that from day to day the passport offices are now keeping abreast of the applications which come in. There may be individual instances here and there in respect of which some particulars have been lacking where it has been necessary to obtain further information before a passport could be granted. I am advised, however, that matters are now being kept up to date. All offices which thus far have been opened are still open.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Our constituents send
applications to us while the house is in session. In view of our proximity to the department we are able to obtain prompt service. When we go home, however, there may be some question as to what would be the most convenient method of procedure. Undoubtedly the people in the constituencies will continue to make applications through local members. The question arises as to whether it would be better to send those applications to Ottawa or to the nearest passport office.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no reason why from now on any constituent should trouble his representative with matters of the kind, because these matters will receive prompt attention if they are directed immediately to the passport office at Ottawa, or, if more convenient, to the nearest branch office.


Mr. HANSELL:: If my memory serves me correctly, I believe in the past we have had considerable discussion when the estimates for the Department of External Affairs have been before the committee. At times this discussion on foreign policy has lasted a day or even more. I recognize that at a time when the nations of the world are at war one must be extremely careful of what one says on these estimates. I think when these particular estimates are before us a member of parliament becomes more aware of his responsibilities. At times we are apt to think that those responsibilities end with representing our particular constituencies. Five years ago I received, perhaps through the courtesy of Doctor Beauchesne, a copy of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms. Naturally I read the entire book, and on page 6 I found something very interesting. Paragraph 21 gave me some perception of the responsibilities of a member, and I should like to read this to the committee. It reads:
Every member as soon as he is chosen becomes a representative of the whole body of the Commons, without any distinction of the place from whence he is sent to parliament. That every member is equally-


Thomas Vien: Will the hon. gentleman give me the connection or the relationship between what he is stating and the item under discussion?


Ernest George Hansell: If you will let me read it, Mr. Chairman, I think you will see the connection.


Thomas Vien: The rules of the house
are binding on every hon. member. I must have the relationship of the point the hon. gentleman desires to make with the item before the committee. It would be a most tedious procedure to read the rules of the bouse in debate.


Ernest George Hansell: I am not reading all the rules of the house.


Thomas Vien: Will the hon. gentleman
please state his point?


Ernest George Hansell: My point is that a member of parliament represents the whole commonwealth of the British empire.


An hon. MEMBER:: We know that.


Thomas Vien: What is the relevancy of that to the item before the committee?


Ernest George Hansell: It is simply that on external affairs estimates it might be thought desirable to discuss matters relevant to the British empire. I was simply pointing out that to-day the British empire-


Thomas Vien: There are so many questions involved in the term "British empire." The discussion must be limited to the item before the committee.


Ernest George Hansell: If you will allow me to proceed, Mr. Chairman, and then if you find I am going off the course-


Thomas Vien: To my mind the hon.
member is already out of order.


Ernest George Hansell: I might say that-
Supply-External Affairs


Thomas Vien: I want to be fair to the hon. gentleman. In order, however, properly to discharge my duties and to save the time of all hon. members-I am quite sure the hon. member is as much concerned about expediting the business of the committee as I am-I must insist that the hon. member show the relevancy of the point he desires to make to the item now before us.


Ernest George Hansell: I desire to bring to the attention of parliament what might turn out to be the reasons why the nations of the world are at war.


Thomas Vien: That does not arise out of the item now before the committee.


Ernest George Hansell: I feel rather keenly about this. There have been times when I could have discussed this matter, perhaps on the budget or on the speech from the throne, but the Prime Minister indicated that there was a time and a place


Thomas Vien: Can the hon. gentleman be more specific? I shall allow a certain latitude. I shall try to see if his remarks can be linked up with this item.


Ernest George Hansell: It is not my desire to go over the history of the present war or to embarrass the government in any way. My desire is that we might learn war no more. There are certain things operative within the relationship between one nation and another which cause war. I am not going into a detailed discussion of those systems, but I do believe that we must of necessity discover the reason for these international complications and then endeavour to find a way out.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman proposes to discuss the causes of international wars.
I must rule that out of order.


Ernest George Hansell: I shall not dwell on that part of my remarks. May I go a little further, and say thaJt in days gone by the British empire has been highly favoured of providence.


Thomas Vien: I did not hear that.


Ernest George Hansell: Highly favoured of providence, highly favoured of God. But there is much that the British empire has to be ashamed of; there are many dark pages in our history. Generally speaking, however, I think our history shows that the hand of God has been with us. At this particular time we find ourselves in a most precarious position. I do not know what the future holds for us. I said the other day that the nations of the world seem to be lining up in different sections of political economy. We may find, perhaps in the not distant future,

that the Americas will be pretty well left to themselves. I do not know what the outcome of the war will be; nobody knows, but T believe of course that Great Brtiain will win. Whether at the close of the war we shall find ourselves in the same relationship with other nations as we have been in the past, I do not know. We may discover that we have a separate European economy. We may discover that we have a separate Asiatic economy. And we may discover that-


Thomas Vien: With all my good-will and my desire to help the hon. gentleman, I must tell him that his remarks are out of order at this moment. Shall the item carry?


Ernest George Hansell: Mr. Chairman, would
you tell me under what item I might discuss the matter of which I am speaking?


Thomas Vien: Well, it is not the duty of the chairman to tell hon. gentlemen when they should rise to speak and what subject they should discuss. I must tell them when they are out of order; and the hon. gentleman is at present out of order.


Ernest George Hansell: Might I ask the Prime
Minister a question? I could have discussed this matter some time ago, but the Prime Minister will recall that he suggested that we could discuss almost anything somewhere in the estimates. May I ask the Prime Minister where I can discuss this matter?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There have
been several occasions. One, as the hon. member himself has remarked, was when we were dealing with the speech from the throne; also there have been opportunities when we were going into supply; and there were other opportunities. I think he is right in saying that some latitude has been and should be allowed on the estimates for external affairs. But this session has been very largely taken up with external affairs, and on many occasions when we have been discussing international affairs my hon. friend might have spoken. It seems to me that there is a very slim house to-day for the consideration of a subject so important as the cause of the war and the other questions he is raising. I think he might reasonably hold over the matter to a subsequent session, unless meanwhile there is a possibility of something being determined as a result of the discussion.


Ernest George Hansell: Perhaps I could reserve
my remarks for some future occasion. But may I point out that, to save time and comply with the Prime Minister's request that we get on with our war effort, I did not speak on the speech from the throne. For the same reason I spoke for less than five minutes on the

Supply-External Affairs
budget. I hoped that I might speak along this line under the estimates of the Department of External Affairs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
J,2. Representation abroad, including salaries of high commissioners, ministers plenipotentiary, consuls, secretaries and staff, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Civil Service Act or any of its amendments, $626,575.
Howard Charles Green: Would the Prime Minister
state in what countries we have representation at the present time?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Representatives have been appointed from Canada as ministers to the United States, to France, to Japan, and more recently, to Belgium and to Holland. My hon. friend is aware that we also have representatives appointed to different parts of the British empire; representatives as high commissioners to the United Kingdom, and to Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland. That is the present extent of Canada's representation abroad.


Howard Charles Green: I understand that there is
no minister to Japan at this time and that the post has been vacant for some years. What is the intention of the government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There has been a vacancy for, I think, about a year and a half. Mr. McGreer is acting as charge d'affaires in Tokyo at the present time. The government has had in mind the appointing of a minister to Japan to succeed the former minister, but for one reason or another it has seemed during the past few months that it would be better to await a more opportune moment to make that particular appointment. The most I would say at the moment is that the matter is under consideration. We are getting very full information from Mr. McGreer. He is in touch with affairs in Japan and is also in touch with the British ambassador in Tokyo. Having regard to the situation eyisting in the orient, I believe we are receiving about as much information from Mr. McGreer, as charge d'affaires, as it would be possible to obtain through a minister.
With reference to what the hon. member for Temiscouata mentioned a moment ago, as to having someone in our legation at Tokyo who has a knowledge of Japanese and who also is a Canadian, I may say that we have in the person of Mr. Norman one who is a graduate of Toronto university, who holds degrees in oriental languages from not only Toronto but also from Harvard and Columbia, is a scholar in Japanese, and quite competent both to converse in and to read that language as freely as he does English.


Howard Charles Green: Has consideration been given to setting up legations in any of the South American countries? The trend of world affairs seems to be making South America of more importance in the Canadian economy, and it might be worth while to consider having representation in Brazil and Argentina. I do not know whether it would be worth while, but has the government considered it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. The government has been considering the advisability of opening a legation in one or other of the South American republics. We have had communications from more than one republic expressing the desire to be represented in Canada. The matter will continue to receive consideration with a view of making at least one appointment in the not too distant future.


Howard Charles Green: Does the Prime Minister feel free to say in which countries we shall most likely be represented?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend has mentioned two of the largest. I should think that either would be appropriate, but as to which would be best and what arrangement would be best will need to be further considered. For example, at the present time we have one minister who is accredited to both Holland and Belgium. It might be advisable to adopt a similar arrangement with reference to one or two of the South American countries.


Jean-François Pouliot: Would the Prime Minister be good enough to say how long Mr. Norman has been in Tokyo?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: He has been there since last December, I believe.


Jean-François Pouliot: Before that there was
nobody among the Canadian foreign staff who spoke Japanese?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I could not say that there was no one. I believe that some of the staff have had a very distinct understanding of Japanese, although I cannot say they spoke the language adequately.


Jean-François Pouliot: I always like my chief
when he is definite in his answers. Mr. Chairman, on September 11, 1939, the member for Temiscouata spoke as follows, as reported at page 114 of Hansard:
Furthermore, it is with Sir Thomas Inskip, who recently entered the House of Lords, that our high commissioner in London, Mr. Massey, had to communicate to get acquainted with the details of the negotiations taking place between the British government and the other powers. Mr. Massey has no direct contact with the French and German embassies in London, and any news he receives originates either from the Foreign Office or the members of the British cabinet.
Supply-External Affairs

Turning to page 117:
Mr. Pouliot: May I ask the Prime Minister if the high commissioner in London gets in touch with the British government or with the embassies of the various countries?
Mr. Mackenzie King: The high commissioner in London is in touch with members of the British government, particularly the secretary of state for the dominions. Through the latter source he frequently obtains information of an inside nature which he communicates immediately to the government here. He does not however come into official relations with ambassadors of other countries.
If we have ministers in other countries they should be on the same rank as ministers of any other country and get in touch with other embassies without having to follow the example of the little fellow who drives the buggy by holding a hand on the reins. There is one who drives the horse, and says "Get up", and holds the reins, and the little fellow says, "Get up" and "Whoa!" and then he thinks he is driving the horse. It seems to me that the status of our ministers abroad is similar to that. I do not see why they are dressed sartorially in beautiful uniforms when they have to get their information through Sir Thomas Inskip or his successor in office. It is the old stop' of the colonial office. That office is now divided into two sections dealing with the dominions and the colonies, but there is no difference. The only difference is in the name and staff. The Prime Minister should see to it that the status of our relations abroad is raised so that our ministers will not be considered by the powers there as country cousins. It is a great humiliation to me to hear that Mr. Massey has not the right to speak officially with any ambassador or minister of any other country except through the medium of the dominions office. I am sure my chief agrees with me in -that regard and I hope the necessary changes will be brought about as soon as possible.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend is -confusing two -positions. He speaks of legations and he speaks of the position of the high commissioner. As far as the legations are concerned, our ministers have all the privileges that any representative of a foreign country would have in another, holding a similar position. With respect to the position of high commissioner in the United Kingdom, he is not an ambassador or minister in the sense in which ministers in foreign countries are so designated and who represent the crown. He is a representative of the government of Canada and the government of Canada has more than one means of obtaining information and of communicating with different departments of the British government. It would only confuse matters to have -the High 	-
Commissioner for Canada in the United Kingdom play at once the role of representative of the government of Canada and the role of representative of the king. That distinction should be kept in mind.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is why it would have been appropriate last year for the government, instead of presenting their majesties with a gold flower bowl, to give a crown to the king of Canada.


Agar Rodney Adamson: There is an increase of $127,000. This is for representatives to Canberra, Wellington, Pretoria and Dublin. Are
these new this year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Agar Rodney Adamson: It is a new departure of the government to have high commissioners in other empire capitals?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. At the special session of parliament after the beginning of the war I said I thought there would be distinct advantages in having Canadian representatives in other parts of the British empire and that we proposed to make appointments immediately to Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland. We already had our high commissioner in the United Kingdom, and these appointments have been made since the outbreak of war. This past year their salaries have been paid under the War Appropriation Act but for the present fiscal year they will be paid out of the vote which parliament is now asked to make.


Agar Rodney Adamson: In view of the growing importance of India, would the Prime Minister consider sending one of the men from the occupied countries to India? I should like to have the names of the high commissioners in these empire countries. I feel strongly about the Indian situation, because India has rather looked to us. There is so much talk about dominion status and if we had a representative in India we might prove to be of great assistance to the British government in discussions of confederation, which we know so much about, and matters of that sort. We might definitely play a great part and be of great help by having a representative there.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am wholly in sympathy with my hon. friend's remarks. Everything would depend upon the person who might be selected for such a post. It is possible that the ideal man will come along, and if we get the right person first there will not be much difficulty about arranging for the creation of the position. At any rate I am obliged to my hon. friend for bringing up the matter and I promise it will be given

Supply-External Affairs
careful consideration. As to the high commissioners appointed, Mr. C. T. Burchell of Halifax has been appointed to Australia; Doctor W. A. Riddell, who was at Washington at one time and had previously been at Geneva, has been appointed to New Zealand; Mr. Henry Laureys of Montreal has been appointed to South Africa and Mr. John Hall Kelly of Quebec has been appointed high commissioner to Ireland. Mr. Massey of course is high commissioner in the United Kingdom.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,3. To provide for hospitality in connection with visitors from abroad, $5,000.
Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: I understand
that some time ago arrangements were made that no alien could cross the border with dreams. For many years past many American tourists have been coming to Canada during the shooting season and have been allowed to cross the border with shotguns, and in the big game season with rifles. Have the departments made arrangements under which aliens from the United States-not enemy aliens but aliens with proper credentials-may be allowed during the shooting season to bring their firearms into Canada?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government has been fully alive to the importance of the tourist trade in Canada and particularly to that phase of it which is represented by the type of persons just mentioned, those coming to participate in the shooting of game. An order in council was passed a short time ago giving to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police authority to grant to persons coming to Canada from the south permits for the right to bring in firearms, provided the authorities were satisfied in all particulars as to the wisdom of granting such permits.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: A number of big game hunters have been coming by plane in the last few years. What procedure will they follow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I believe that where men arrive by plane they report to the nearest customs authority. That procedure will have to be followed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
ii. Expenses in connection with the negotiation of treaties, $10,000.
Mr. POULIOT; I wish to congratulate the government upon the treaties entered into with South American countries. It is high time that Canada looked to the future in regard to trade and took advantage of this war to secure as much as possible of the
German and Italian trade in Central and South America. I urge that not only upon the Prime Minister, who I know feels strongly in the matter, but especially I urge it upon the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I hope hon. members will give the strongest encouragement to the government for that purpose. We have lost and are losing markets in Europe, and we have great opportunities to the south of us; it is high time that we looked after them.
I remember very well that once there was a mission sent to South America and a leading Canadian on that mission was Sir George Perley. He came back and made a long speech about his trip, telling how wonderful was the brass band reception at Buenos Aires or Rio de Janiero, and that was all. After that mission went there our trade with south American countries dropped by half. I ask the government to send the very best men to South America in order to capture the German, Italian and enemy trade and to obtain for Canada trade opportunities in South America that we have lost in Europe.
Mr. PULEORD:: The pan-American union has just been in session and the vacant seat which has been kept so long for Canada still remains vacant. I know the argument is advanced that it would not be in the interest of Canada as a member of the British commonwealth of nations to be a member of the pan-American union. But at this time I can see no reason why Canada does not take its rightful place in the pan-American union; instead of being derogatory to our position in the British empire I am of the opinion that it would be a distinct advantage for all concerned.


Jean-François Pouliot: I congratulate the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Fulford) upon what he has just said. It may confirm my theory that Canada is not a nation and cannot enter into a war treaty with the United States. I should like that to be done. Of course President Roosevelt came here a couple of years ago and made wonderful speeches saying that if Canada was attacked the United States would come to our defence, but the word of the president is all we have. I hope he will be reelected; that is the wish of the great majority of the Canadian people, but we have not a formal treaty binding the United States to the defence of Canada, and such a treaty would be just as welcome in the United States as in Canada. We are neighbours. What is the best thing for a man? It is to be on good terms with his neighbour. We are of course on good terms with the United States, but there is nothing like a binding obligation on the United States to defend Canada and
Supply

External Affairs

binding Canada also to defend the United States. I am not in favour of sending men overseas and neglecting our own defence, but I would be in favour of defending the United States because they are part of our continent, just as the great majority of the people of the United States would be ready to defend us in case of attack. Therefore I support heartily what my distinguished colleague has said, and ask the Prime Minister if it is not possible to take steps to have a formal treaty entered into between the United States and Canada for mutual defence.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend has asked me to answer two questions in replying to one. The subject brought up by the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Fulford) was the advisability of Canada being represented at the present time as a member of the panAmerican union. As my hon. friend knows the pan-American union is a union of republics; that is the ground on which they are associated at the present time. I just mention that in passing. But I go back to what I have said so often, that I think there are times and seasons for all things, and I cannot imagine that the present time, when Canada is at war with Germany, and the United States and the republics of South America are neutral nations, would be the most opportune time for Canada to seek admission to the pan-American union. I am afraid it would be embarrassing to Canada and equally embarrassing to the United States and the South American republics.
There is a further reason; we have not recently been invited to become a member. I have no doubt at all that if we indicated a desire to become a member at some appropriate time, the opportunity would be forthcoming; but certainly in this period of war I have no hesitation in saying that I believe it would be embarrassing to the United States and to the South American republics as well as to ourselves, and would create misunderstanding in other countries, were Canada to seek to become a member of the pan-American union. There are no doubt advantages in such membership, but those will be still open, I hope and believe, when this war is over.
What I think is even more important than representation in the pan-American union is the kind of representation of which my hon. friend opposite spoke a moment ago, namely a legation in some of the South American republics, also possibly consulates in some of those republics.
As to the question of treaties for mutual defence between the United States and Canada, that is a very large subject. At this time I 
will simply say that Canada is a't war, and the United States is a neutral country. The United States, as we all know, has a presidential election pending. What is said here with respect to relations between a country at war and a neutral country may have one meaning to us and have a dozen different meanings to those who wish to give other meanings to particular acts in another country. For that reason I feel that it is not desirable that we in Canada should discuss publicly at this time the advisability of treaties of the kind mentioned, however strongly we may feel with respect to the wisdom of them.
While I am speaking on this may I direct the attention of the committee to the kind of embarrassment which arises when certain questions are asked and an attempt is made to answer them. Hon. members will recall that a day or two ago the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) asked me a question as to whether Canada had stopped arming Japan against Great Britain. Those were the exact words in which he put his question. I was rather surprised at the question at the time; I had to make some reply to it, and I replied that the government was doing all that it could to prevent the export to Japan of war materials considerd essential, and, I might have added, their export to other countries. When I looked at the afternoon newspapers I saw the heading:
Denies Canada arming Japan against Britain. Premier declares government acting to curb arms export.
Then followed the statement on which the heading was based. What I wish to draw the attention of hon. members to is this. That particular statement has a significance here in Canada, but that statement is cabled to all parts of the world, and I have to ask myself what effect that question and answer is going to have in the United Kingdom in her present embarrassing relations with the orient. What effect is that question and the answer given going to have in Japan, where at the present time, as we all know, there are many persons who are supercritical in the matter of trade and political relations between different parts of the world and that particular country. But above all, I ask, what effect is that particular question and the answer going to have when cabled to Germany and it is broadcast throughout Germany that the Prime Minister of Canada has had to deny that Canada was arming Japan against Britain? We all know that the nazi aim is to create difficulties if possible between different parts of a great commonwealth of nations such as the British commonwealth, and to create dissension within particular

Supply-External Affairs
countries. I direct attention to the matter simply because it helps to explain to hon. members that, if I have been reticent about making replies to certain questions or giving certain information, I have had to consider at all times how that information would be construed, and the effect it might have when read in circumstances that are very critical, not only in our own country but in the United Kingdom, in Europe and in the orient.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Any attempt to join
the pan-American union now would be construed by our enemies as weakness on our part and disintegration of the British empire. Any alteration in our constitutional status at the present time would be so regarded by them.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think it would be deliberately so construed.


Agar Rodney Adamson: Yes, deliberately so.


Howard Charles Green: Could the Prime Minister explain the present position with regard to the proposed St. Lawrence waterway and also the Alaska highway?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The St. Lawrence waterway is a matter to which attention has been given by the governments of both the United States and Canada. Recently representatives of the United States met with representatives of our own government to discuss questions relating to this matter. I do not know that I can say anything more than that negotiations with respect to the treaty progressed to a certain extent as a result of those meetings. The matter is pending at the present time.
As to the Alaska highway, as my hon. friend knows, a commission has been appointed which is gathering data with respect to the most feasible routes, costs and the like. One report has been made by the chairman of that commission, and the government is now awaiting a further report. Until that report is received I am unable to say what action will be taken upon it.


Howard Charles Green: When is that report expected?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It may be
some weeks or it may be some months. I am sorry I cannot say definitely.


Howard Charles Green: Further surveys are being
made this summer, are they not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
45. Expenses of Canadian delegates to the assembly, conferences and commissions of the league of nations, $7,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: I should like to say just
a word about the imperial conferences.


Thomas Vien: This has to do with
the league of nations, not imperial conferences.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have just a word to say. Imperial conferences have been held at various times, and I congratulate my chief, the Prime Minister, on the stand he has taken at those conferences. Of course he has presented the views of a majority of the Canadian people who have supported him. But one should not exaggerate the effect of the resolutions or conclusions of an imperial conference, for the reason that our constitution is an imperial act of parliament and can be amended only by another act of parliament, as was done in connection with the unemployment insurance measure. Therefore the conclusions or reports or resolutions of an imperial conference are only pious wishes, which become realities only when accepted by the British government in the form of imperial legislation. I may say, "I wish we would have cool weather to-day. That does not mean that we will have cool weather and will have to wear overcoats when we leave this building. That is the _ sort of pious wish that is made at an imperial conference by people who mean very well and who present their point of view to the British government. However, it is left to that government to accept or lay aside the wishes of the delegates from the dominions and colonies. So that we must not attach too much importance to the work of any imperial conference unless legislation is passed at Westminster according to the wishes expressed at that conference.
This is what I wish to tell my right hon. leader. And we must not lose our sense of proportion in these matters; we must not feed ourselves with words. It is very nice to have a convention or congress of political leaders from all parts of the British empire; but the only thing that counts in a practical way is the legislation that is passed by the imperial parliament in accordance with their wishes. In my view the reports of the imperial conferences indicate that the representatives of the various parts of the empire have done their duty in submitting their policies to those gatherings, but they have not always been successful in having those policies adopted at Westminster.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I wonder if the Prime
Minister would give us a report on the league of nations and the extent to which it is functioning. I understand that some of its offices are being moved to the United States, including the labour office.
Supply-External Affairs


Thomas Vien: Item 48 has to do with the league of nations. This covers only the expenses of the delegates.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That matter
can be taken up on this item. As I think my hon. friend is aware, the league's opportunities to function have been very greatly circumscribed, and its actual functioning has been reduced to extremely small proportions. The secretariat has been reduced from something like 700 to about 100 persons, if I am not mistaken. In discussing the league of nations many persons have in mind the international labour office, which is in some respects perhaps the most important part of the work carried on at Geneva. The international labour office also has been obliged to greatly reduce its staff, and as my hon. friend has indicated, I believe that some members of the league secretariat recently came to Princeton university to carry on their work. At the moment the league is functioning more to appearances than in reality. The secretary, Mr. Avenol, has resigned. I have in my hand the telegram Mr. Avenol sent with respect to his resignation. As the telegram gives some account of the position of the league it may help to answer my hon. friend's question if I read it. This message was received on July 25, and reads:
Since impossible hold meeting of council and assembly, I have honour make following communication individually to states members league nations.
This comes from the secretary-general of the league of nations, Mr. Avenol, and is addressed to the ministers of external affairs of the different countries represented in the league.
In 1932 council league nations, and in its turn assembly, unanimously elected me secretary-general. Unanimity of those who appointed me imposed on me duties which I have never despaired of fulfilling. Until September 1936 I believed that certain inevitable reforms would enable league nations, in order that its task might be successful, regroup forces which were moving away from it. Since that time amendment of covenant has formed part of agenda of league nations, but situation has constantly deteriorated. Nevertheless there still seemed to be some hope in attempting, with view to future, to establish on as wide basis of collaboration as possible, great economic, social and humanitarian work started and developed by league which was not necessarily bound up with organization contemplated in covenant of 1919.
On my proposal draft scheme for creation of central committee for economic and social questions was adopted. Its constitution at once simple and elastic was intended enable this body whilst leaving it large measure of initiative reestablish collaboration between states members and non-member states on questions of concern to all alike, and place this collaboration outside discussions of covenant of 1919. Important states, although not league members, had already 
shown their interest, but when assembly ratified scheme in entirety war had broken out. Since then has been my painful duty reduce step by step expenses of league nations to constantly declining level suitable to its financial resources. When assembly laid down rules to be followed to this end I was given special powers to carry them out. It has been my constant care keep finances of league in such condition that risk complete interruption should never deprive states members of their freedom of decision.
As it has been impossible for a majority of its members to meet, I have not had benefit support of supervisory commission which would have been the more valuable to me as difficulties increased. Commission will be summoned meet August.
I have felt deeply departure many loyal fellow workers. I have made it a rule maintain, notably in technical sections, an experienced staff which can keep alive tradition of competence and devotion of secretariat. Since assembly, council and committees cannot meet at present time, constitutional powers of secretary-general are in fact in suspense. Duties which remain principally administration of small body of officials, and management of finances of league nations no longer justify maintenance of political high direction which is no longer consistent with realities of situation. Work of technical sections could well be continued for present in form of organization which would be better adapted to needs of hour whilst effecting substantial economies.
Therefore, while expressing my deep gratitude to all members league nations who have been good enough give me support of their goodwill and confidence, I ask them relieve me of task with which they have entrusted me. I propose notify date on which my resignation would take effect after coming meeting of supervisory commission. I am anxiously considering appropriate measures to insure that administration and work of secretariat shall continue. I shall make proposals on this subject in due course.
I believe it will be apparent from that communication that at least for the time being the league is in a sort of comatose condition. It may revive after the war is over, and I am sure there are many who will hope that there are still before it great opportunities for world service.


Jean-François Pouliot: I should like to speak regarding travelling expenses of delegates to the league of nations. It seems to me the only persons we should send to the league would be those with a view to entering into trade negotiations with other countries. They ought to be prepared to meet and to discuss various commercial aspects.
From its beginning I cannot see any good the league of nations has done. At the present time representatives from various railway brotherhoods and other organizations try to get free trips to Geneva. When they arrive there the effect is just the same as if nobody had gone there. We know some of them have been to Geneva nearly every year. For instance, Tom Moore and others go to Geneva. They go there, they vote, they come back,

Supply-External Affairs
and they say that labour has been represented at Geneva. They have travelled expensively both ways. That's all. I do not see the good in it. If Mr. Moore is such a valuable person we should keep him in Canada, and not allow him to go outside the country at all. There is a real race among the officers in the railway brotherhoods when it comes to a decision as to which one will go to Geneva. "We must all go, together"

and then they go to Geneva and they come back. While there they stay at a fine .place, and they tell us they were well received. Certainly they were greatly impressed-so much impressed, in fact, that they said nothing. Therefore I do not see why this item should stand-unless it be for commercial purposes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
1,7. Amount required to meet loss of exchange, $115,000.
Agar Rodney Adamson: Would the Prime Minister explain this loss?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This relates to payments which have to be made in foreign countries. For example, in connection with the league of nations payments are all on the gold basis. When we vote our appropriations in dollars, as we do, we have to make good the difference in exchange. The amount in the estimate is that which has been necessitated to meet the differences in exchange in connection with the league and representation generally in different countries, where exchange is a factor.


Mr. JACKMAN:: This item of $115,000 should be added to the next one of $150,410?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: About $100,000 of it, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada's contributions to maintenance of external organizations.
18. The expenses of the league of nations for 1940, including secretariat, international labour organization and permanent court of international justice, $150,410.
Jean-François Pouliot: I would remind the committee that earlier in the session I suggested that this item should be employed to buy radium to treat cancer. Would the Prime Minister agree to my suggestion?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member's suggestion would be more appropriate under the estimates for the Department of Pensions and National Health.


Jean-François Pouliot: I made my representations then, too, may I tell my respected leader. But I got no answer. The Minister of
Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) told me to wait until the estimates for the Department of External Affairs were before the committee. Now I see the two ministers are sitting very close together, and I would ask them to talk the matter over so that they might give me a definite answer.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should be pleased to do that and to give my hon. friend an answer, perhaps at the next session.


Jean-François Pouliot: Meantime the league of nations is dead. Mr. Chamberlain said it was-dead. Mr. Baldwin said it was dead, and it has been dead for some time. I wonder if it would not be better to drop this item.


Agar Rodney Adamson: I am pleased to see
that we are still maintaining our connection with the league of nations. If the world is ever going to live in peace we must have some form of collective security. The league of nations failed and failed miserably because it did not have sufficient force, sufficient strength or sufficient arms. We can never go back to the pre-war system of economic selfsufficiency which caused the present war. I am pleased to see this item, and my only hope is that in future we will stand behind a form of collective security, and never again be placed in a position of backing down on oil sanctions against Italy, as we did in connection with the Abyssinian crisis. I hope the government's future policy with respect to collective security will be realistic.


Mr. EDWARDS:: Is this sum of $150,410
an assessment by the league? How is the amount arrived at? If it is true, as it would appear from what we have heard this morning, that the activities of the league are very much circumscribed, why are the large contributions maintained? Is Canada making a larger contribution in proportion to those made by other members of the league?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In large part the figure has been kept where it was previously for the sake of convenience. There is no doubt that the entire amount will not be used. In fact I imagine only a small part of it will be used this year. It is impossible to say just how much of it will be used, and on the whole it was thought advisable to renew the vote and to use such portions of it as might be necessary.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada's contributions to maintenance of external organizations.
51. Expenses of wheat advisory committee for 1940, Canada's assessment, $1,955.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What is this vote used for?
Supply-External Affairs


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I understand this organization meets in London. Originally it was formed to provide some method of controlling the world markets of wheat. I believe it now functions principally in connection with the gathering of statistics which will be of value to all countries facing wheat problems. It is an international committee. Of course its work at the present time is materially circumscribed, but it is thought advisable to keep up the contribution. It may turn out to be of great service, as matters develop.


Manley Justin Edwards: Is this the committee which has its headquarters in Italy?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, that is a separate organization.


Manley Justin Edwards: That is a different committee?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is a world
committee, having its headquarters in London. The United States and the Argentine are represented.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: This committee meets with the committee at Rome.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It has met with them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Privy council office.
273. Salaries and expenses of office, $55,870.
Jean-François Pouliot: Are certified copies of the acts of parliament sent by the' privy council office to the Department of External Affairs?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall have to look into the matter. I shall find out and let my hon. friend know.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Mines and geology branch.
IS7. Mineral resources investigations, $392,740.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Does the department derive any benefit as a result of expenditures under this vote?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: There is a little income, but not a great deal. This item covers the work carried on by the laboratories of the department in Ottawa. This work consists of assaying and the development of processes of treating complex and difficult ores. This work is best illustrated by what was done in connection with pitchblende which was discovered some nine or ten years ago at Great Bear lake. A process had to be found to extract the radium from the ore. There were

only two places in the world where this was being done, one on a small scale in Austria and the other in Belgium, where a corporation had worked out a process to extract radium from pitchblende ore secured in the Belgian Congo. The formulae were closely controlled and were not available to us, so it became necessary, if this deposit of ore was to be of use, to discover a method of treatment. That method was worked out in the mineral investigations branch in conjunction with certain assistance from the national research council. This investigation was successful and the industry developed. This vote is mainly to assist in the development of the mining industry in Canada. As I have stated in the past, many mining companies have testified to the assistance given by this branch in working out the best method of treating their ore. In short, what we do is to bring together a number of high class scientific men who have gained considerable experience in dealing with these problems.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I was not questioning the value of the work being done. I was just wondering if a charge Should not be made to the mining companies for the valuable information supplied to them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No charges have been made up to the present. If you like to put it that way, this is one form of government assistance to the mining industry across Canada. Only a few thousand dollars revenue is received yearly for this work.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Has the government considered making a charge?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, but up to the present time it has not been thought wise to do so. It might discourage development in certain directions, and we want to give all the assistance we can to increasing our gold and metal production.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Is there any duplication of services by the provinces. I understand Ontario does some work along these lines.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No province gives a service similar to this.


Agar Rodney Adamson: This is one of the most useful services being carried out by the department. Any mine in Canada can send a sample of its ore to this branch to have it tested and assayed. I understand the government will advise on the best method of milling and whether the straight cyanidation process or the flotation method of extraction should be used. This tremendously helps mines design their mills.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Mines and geology branch.
IS7. Mineral resources investigations, $392,740.
Howard Charles Green: What steps, if any, are being taken to aid in the locating of minerals which are needed in Canada's war effort? That question has come to my attention in connection with the shortage of tungsten. Apparently some attempt has been made in British Columbia to locate that mineral. There does not seem to be any proper plan for going after these minerals in a business-like way. It is not sufficient to leave the work to the prospector who is prospecting at random. Opinion in scientific circles seems to be that there should be some directed effort.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Every year geological field parties go out to add to our knowledge of the geology of the country and, in particular, the areas where minerals are located. Occasionally parties engaged in that work can get evidence of mineral showings, but it has not been the practice of the department to send out prospecting parties or to aid in financing them. What we do is to gather all the data which can be secured as to the geological formations in the various parts of the dominion, and work the knowledge up into reports and geological maps as a guide to prospectors.
My hon. friend asks what direct assistance the government is giving to add to the store of strategic metals important in war time. Up to the present no direct assistance has been given. I should think that if that were necessary or advisable it would be a matter for the metals controller appointed under the Department of Munitions and Supply. As regards the mineral referred to by my hon. friend, there are here and there evidences of tungsten, and I understand that in some localities in British Columbia small developments are under way.
I recall having heard only a month or so ago, with respect to the important mineral known as mercury, that development is taking place in a section of northern British Columbia.


Howard Charles Green: In the Peace River district?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, around Fort St. James, in northern British Columbia. That became important because mercury is a necessary ingredient in the manufacture of explosive materials used in war, and hitherto the main supply has come from Spain, and small quantities from Italy. The possibility of the shutting off of both those sources of supply emphasized the importance of finding sources within the empire. Some assistance has been
given, more in the direction of assisting in transportation facilities to this mercury deposit, and to-day, substantial quantities are coming from that point. I do not think it is desirable that the department of its own volition should take up the work of prospecting. If such activities should become necessary as a war measure they will be, I assume, a matter for the metals controller.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister tell us of what minerals we are short for war purposes?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the moment I have not that information. I do not know that we are short of any of the strategic metals.


Howard Charles Green: Perhaps the metals controller would take this question under consideration. If we are short of any particular minerals it seems to me that the government should give the leadership through one or other of its departments in prospecting for those minerals.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no doubt that the subject is engaging the attention of the metals controller and that he is in touch with the British authorities to find out what their needs are.


Agar Rodney Adamson: As I recall, it was to a
reconnaissance trip of this kind taken by Doctor Camsell some years ago that we are indebted for the opening up of the Northwest Territories, particularly the Great Bear area. That would come under this item of surveys, mapping and so on, I think.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is not under this item.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch.
HO. Geological surveys, $254,842.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think my hon. friend's question is relevant under this item.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is anything being done in the way of increasing the prospecting for oil, and geological tests for that purpose, especially in Alberta, through the Peace River country?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. We have several additional parties in Alberta studying the geology and oil formations of that province.


Charles Edward Johnston: That is in addition to what the companies themselves are doing?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Oh, yes. We are giving special attention to it this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
Mines and geology branch.
1U. Dominion fuel board-administration and investigations, $27,100.
Mr. MacNICOL:: Does this item cover the fuel controller's department; is it now under the dominion fuel board?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. This has nothing whatever to do with the dominion fuel controller.


Joseph Henry Harris: This item ha? to do with the finding of supplies of Canadian coal for Canadian industry and otherwise. I imagine that, with the advent of the war exchange act regulations and the ten per cent tax, a much larger quantity of Canadian coal is moving into consumption, particularly in Ontario.


Thomas Vien: That matter, I think, comes under item 145.


Joseph Henry Harris: Item 145 relates to the actual expenditure of money by subvention for this purpose, but item 144-the minister will correct me if I am wrong-has to do with the administration of the payments which are provided for in the next item. It is upon administration and investigation that I wish to make one or two observations.
When this department investigates the possibility of consuming Canadian coal in parts of Ontario where in days gone by they have burned in their stokers and boilers Virginia coal or coal that comes by way of Cleveland, it is found that Canadian coal does not work out very well in the equipment which at present burns river and creek coals from Virginia. I suggest that a more intensive investigation be carried on by these investigators and that they be given more assistance in their endeavour to advise as to what coals can be used in certain plants. This might assist materially the consumption of more Canadian coal. We have great difficulty in burning Canadian coal in consequence of the smoke nuisance by-laws which are in force in the different municipalities in Canada. The bylaw makes it difficult for the consumer of coal to use the Canadian product and he finds that he has to go back to coals imported from the United States. The investigators could very often appeal to the municipalities to relax some of the regulations as they affect the burning of Canadian coal, particularly in the central part of Ontario.
Perhaps the minister would make a general statement with regard to this important phase of the activities of his department. This branch distributes the greatest amount of money and it deserves something more than a passing reference, particularly at this time when everything should be done to burn more
[Mr. Crerar.3
and more Canadian coal. At the same time, the minister might enlarge upon the question and give the policy of the dominion fuel board from the point of view of conserving United States exchange through the consumption of more Canadian coal and thus avoiding the necessity of paying so much of that exchange for coal imported from the United States. With regard to the great consuming centre of Ontario, western Ontario particularly, and the Toronto-Hamilton area, I make this observation. Not nearly intensive enough an investigation is going on at the present time in that large area, nor is there sufficient cooperation. Last night, I noticed, the steamship Colfax was unloading about 5,000 tons of Canadian coal. We have not nearly enough Canadian coal in the Toronto-Hamilton area. The public buildings are cooperating-and when I say public buildings I am thinking of the school board of Toronto, for example, the hydro administrative buildings and the municipal buildings in that area. They have readjusted their furnaces in such a way as to consume Canadian coal, but after all municipal organizations are very small consumers. They are doing it from the standpoint of Canadian patriotism and have made some adjustment in the combustion chambers to take care of this problem; but frankly, from my observation, very little is being done in the large consuming units.
When the minister is making his statement he might discuss a question which I may be permitted to mention at this stage, though it comes under the next item. I refer to the $4,000,000 of subventions for the movement of coal from the maritime provinces to Ontario and other points. He might obtain from the proper officials and give to the committee information as to what proportion of the $4,000,000 is being used in Ontario, what proportion is being used in Quebec, and how much if any goes beyond the great lakes as far as Manitoba. He will correct me if _ that does not come under the item to which I refer, the item that has to do with the expenditure of money voted by parliament to assist in freight costs in the hauling of Canadian coal.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This item that we are considering now, administration and investigations of the dominion fuel board, is of course related to the item that immediately follows, which is $4,000,000 for payments in connection with movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council. Item 144 has really to do with administrative and investigational costs associated with the expenditure of the money under item 145. Item 144 deals with the administration of the dominion fuel board. Examination of the usability of

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
various coals is being constantly carried on in the fuel research laboratories of the bureau of mines to develop methods of using coal with the greatest possible economy.
The coal policy is one that has been discussed at various times in the past. A good many years ago the policy was definitely adopted of aiding by way of subventions the movement of Nova Scotia coal to the central Canadian areas. A few years later that was extended to the western provinces, particularly Alberta. The result is that subventions are paid on the movement of both Nova Scotia and Alberta coal, although the great bulk of the expenditure is in relation to the movement of Nova Scotia coal. The principle upon which the subvention was based was to put Canadian coal into competition with United States coal coming into the central parts of Canada. That applied not only to coal used for industrial and domestic purposes but also to the coal used in railway operations. It is all a question of how far it is desirable to extend the principle. Theoretically we could, by voting sums of money in parliament, bonus the movement of coal from Nova Scotia on the east or Alberta on the west to the point where it would entirely supplant the use of American coal. But it would be at a very heavy cost to the treasury of Canada. The importations of United States coal last year were about 12,000,000 tons. I have forgotten the total consumption for the moment. But if we increase our vote to exclude United States coal it would have to be a very heavy increase.


Joseph Henry Harris: I do not ask for that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: After all, a policy of this kind has to be worked out on a reasonable basis. The payment of the subventions voted last year and again this year will enable our Nova Scotia coal mines to operate perhaps not to maximum capacity, but to a considerable measure at any rate of their capacity. And the same is true of the Alberta mines. It is a nice matter of judgment how far we should go and where we should stop, but I think experience has indicated that on the whole the policy has been administered in a way that has contributed to the maintenance of these industries to some considerable degree at any rate both in Nova Scotia and Alberta.


Joseph Henry Harris: The coal subvention is paid for hauling the coal, from which industry gets the benefit. If the records the minister has before him are by cities or by provinces, would he put on the record what has been paid to the province of Quebec, the city of Quebec, and the city of Montreal in the way of subventions? As the minister in
his reply mentioned Ontario, perhaps he would also put on record the subventions paid to Ontario last year and this year, so that we may see whether there is any increase.
I would also remind the minister that many small mines in Nova Scotia are lying idle or not working to capacity. I should like to have a record of the subventions paid in Quebec city, Quebec province, the city of Toronto and Ontario.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know that I have the information in that detail, but I can give some figures which may throw some light on the question: In 1939 assistance was given on 2,381,995 tons of Nova Scotia coal to the extent of $2,910,243. The year before the corresponding figures were 1,377,000 tons and the assistance $1,253,000 in round figures. I have corresponding figures back to 1928.
Regarding Alberta and Crowsnest coal, the total tonnage receiving assistance in 1939 was in round figures 436,000 tons and the assistance amounted to $579,000. In 1938 the corresponding figures were 258,000 tons, and assistance $257,000. It is interesting to note that in Saskatchewan assistance was given on the movement of 159,000 tons in 1939 to the amount of $37,500.


Joseph Henry Harris: I am trying
to get the policy.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry I have not the information by provinces. But I can tell my hon. friend that the subventions paid on coal moving into Ontario were much greater than on coal moving into Quebec, because the distance is greater.


Joseph Henry Harris: The matter of ton mile rates is what I am trying to get. Is the ton mile subvention the same to Toronto ias to the city of Quebec? In the case of coal coming from Virginia fields the freight rates are worked out in accordance with the competition they have to meet; the coal costs whatever freight it will bear. It is the old rule; the freight is regulated by what the traffic will bear.
It occurs to me that we have been without a definite policy in this regard. The ton mile rate has no relationship to the value of the commodity at the point of consumption; in other words the cost at the point of consumption is not figured back against that of its competitor, United States bituminous coal, so that the final outcome would be to the benefit of Canadian coal. My view is that it should not be just a flat rate of a dollar a ton; there should be a very substantial differential, especially when the mileage is three or four times as great in respect
254S

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
of coal consumed in Hamilton as compared with that consumed closer to the point of origin in Nova Scotia. What is the policy of the department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Subventions are not paid on the movement of Nova Scotia coal by water up as far as Montreal. When you come to consider the city of Quebec, keeping in mind the principle of the subvention, that it is to enable Canadian coal to compete with United States coal, the cost of United States coal delivered in Quebec is very much greater than "the cost of United States coal delivered in Montreal, and the cost of delivering Nova Scotia coal to Quebec is less than the cost of delivering the same coal. to Montreal. Consequently the rate of subvention paid to Quebec, if subventions were paid there, would be very much less than to Montreal, because the need for it is less.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And in the case of
Toronto the need is greater.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In the case of Toronto it is greater.


Joseph Henry Harris: Not sufficient to make up the differential.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is estimated very carefully by those in charge of the administration of the Dominion Fuel Act so that no more will be paid than is necessary to enable Canadian coal to take the place of United States coal. That is the general principle upon which the subventions are administered, and I do not know any sounder principle upon which they could be administered.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has the minister any
idea of the number of men who have been given employment in the Nova Scotia coal mines as a result of these subventions?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In 1939 it was estimated that 4,403 men obtained employment in the coal mines of Nova Scotia as a result of the subventions paid.


Jean-François Pouliot: It seems to me there are two branches that should work together, the dominion fuel board and the combines investigation branch of the Department of Labour. There was an investigation some time ago into the exorbitant profits made out of coal, but in Riviere du Loup we still pay S17.50 a ton for anthracite. We did not get any help from this or any other board; and in addition to that price there is now a tax of ten per cent. The situation is not so bad here in Ottawa, because this city is closer to the American mines, and anthracite is a little

cheaper here. People who burn ten, twelve or fifteen tons of coal during the winter, and must pay S17.50 a ton for it, consider this price really exorbitant.
I wonder what is the remedy. I see there is to be an increase in these subventions this year, but it is not a question of money; it is a question of power to deal with the situation. We should have redress of some kind. What was the use of that costly inquiry by Mr. McGregor? I wonder if the Department of Labour has worked in cooperation with the Department of Mines and Resources in this regard. As a result of that investigation a huge report was prepared, but no one read it and as a matter of fact I think only one copy was made available to members of this house. The joke of it all was that the man who was responsible for all that exploitation of the Canadian people sold out his interests and is now free in the other place, considered by many to be a great citizen. This reminds me of the case of a lawyer who was disbarred; I am sure the Minister of Justice will remember him. He is dead now, so I need not mention his name, but he would force his clients to pay him twice if they could not produce receipts. He was stealing hundreds of dollars; yet because occasionally he gave $5 to charity he was considered a good Samaritan and a public-spirited Canadian. That was the position of the controller of the coal business in this country. WThat he did was shameful, yet apparently there was no remedy. What is the use of having boards, boards, boards? It is of no use at all. Here we have the cult of the golden calf. When a man is rich he is supposed to be a great citizen, but often it happens that a man becomes rich by exploiting the Canadian people, as has been done in connection with coal.
I wonder if it is too late for us to have some sort of sanction. The way the Canadian people at large have been treated in regard
to coal is a d

 shame; I could use some
very profane language when I think of it. I believe everyone agrees with me in this statement. We have cold winters here. We see some of these people go on tours around the world while the rest of us freeze here and have to pay tremendous prices for coal. I should like to have an investigation that would give results, not a pink investigation; and I would like those responsible for the suffering of our fellow citizens during the cold weather to be hanged naked in the fiercest cold of winter. That is the penalty I think they deserve. The minister has had long years of experience in this department; he has a wide knowledge of the coal situation, and I wonder if he cannot do something real

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
for the relief of the Canadian people particularly now when it is more difficult to get coal from the mines of Great Britain.


Mr. GILLIS:: A moment ago the minister said that approximately 4,500 men had obtained employment by virtue of these subventions. I should like to know how that figure was arrived at and where this employment was created.
iMr. CRERAR: It was created in the Nova Scotia mines, though I cannot tell my hon. friend in what particular mines. I suppose the ' figure would be based on the number of tons moved as a result of the subventions which have been paid. I presume some formula would be applied based on the amount of coal that would be mined by an individual miner.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Would it not also include the extra men required on the railways and
boats?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, this figure does not include those men; this is the direct employment at the mines. I am not in a position to say the number of days each miner would work, or anything like that; but in addition to the employment given in connection with the mining of the coal, bringing it to the point where it would be put in a railway car, there was additional employment given to men engaged on the railways and boats. That is wholly apart from the figure I mentioned a moment ago.


Clarence Gillis: I do not want to say very much about this item, because any time you attempt to discuss the matter of subsidies, at any rate provincially, you are always reminded that they are just gifts from the government, not fixed by statute, and that any discussion of them may cause them to be withdrawn. I do not want to be placed in that position. When the minister gave the figure I thought there might be a possibility that the employment to which he referred had been created in connection with the movement of the coal, because I know positively, without having to guess about it at all, that no employment has been created for miners since the establishment of subsidies. As a matter of fact the reverse is true. On two occasions I have attempted to paint a picture of conditions in that industry during the past ten years. Coal mining in Nova Scotia is definitely on the way out. Since this session of parliament opened I have had telegrams, wires and letters stating that unemployment was widespread throughout the industry.
I have only a word more to say about subventions. I have been employed by the Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation, which controls coal mining in Nova Scotia, for a
period of thirty years, and I am very sceptical in regard to the question of subventions. I would advise the government to examine closely into the question whether or not that subvention has been used for the purposes for which it was intended. I have not seen any benefits accruing to the man who produces or digs the coal. That is all I have to say on that point.
I notice in the estimates that there is an increase of $500,000 in respect to subventions. I believe that about a year ago, after hearing representations from Nova Scotia, the government did grant that additional $500,000 over and above the appropriation of the year before. At the time that that grant was made the excise tax on the duty-paid value of United States coal was removed, was it not? As I understood the situation at that time Nova Scotia coal was granted an advantage to the extent of $500,000, and the excise tax, as I have pointed out, on the duty-paid value was removed. The intention was to increase the quantity of Nova Scotia coal going into Ontario. Well, by giving the $500,000 to the Nova Scotia industry and removing the excise tax the opportunity for the Ontario importer to take in United States coal was increased about three times over. And while it certainly was good politics, and worked both in Ontario and in Nova Scotia, I do not think any benefit accrued either to the miners in Nova Scotia or to the country as a whole. In the final analysis action of that kind is not smart. I would ask the minister to examine carefully this question of subventions. I do not know how they are paid or to whom they are paid, but I am sceptical as to whether the miners who dig the coal are receiving any advantage from it.
I believe the intention behind the subventions is that of improving the standard of living of people employed in and about the mines, and to give them more employment. The principle is a proper one, but I doubt whether it is being applied to the people who should be receiving the benefits. I repeat that the matter requires careful examination.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As a result of subventions paid in 1939 the total number of additional man-days-work in Nova Scotia was 1,016,209. The hon. member has raised the question whether the subventions policy has resulted in benefits to the miners. I am not in a position to make a statement so far as their wage scales are concerned; but I suggest it is obvious that as a result of the payments of subventions to aid in the movement of Nova Scotia coal to markets farther west, additional employment has been given. If no subventions had been paid, and had we

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
had no such policy there would have been that much less coal moved from Nova Scotia and that much less coal produced in that province. Consequently there would be that much more unemployment in the mining areas if the subventions had not been given.
The whole purpose behind the principle of subventions is to provide employment, so far as can be done reasonably. We could, of course, shut out the importation of United States coal. For instance, if we imposed a duty of $10 a ton on all United States coal we would at once immensely widen the market for both Nova Scotia and Alberta coals. But it would mean that the consumers, both industrial and domestic, would pay a greatly increased price for their fuel. Consequently this policy was designed in the first instance to permit the use of Canadian coals in Canada, to widen the field of employment associated with the coal industry in Canada, and still permit the industrial and domestic users of coal to secure it at a reasonable price.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: In Ontario domestic stokers are becoming more popular all the time. Their use is displacing the use of United States anthracite. We must remember that those stokers are used in both domestic and semi-domestic services. Apartment houses are using them. Can we use Canadian coal in that type of heating system?
Another question:	What is the freight
rate on Alberta coal from Alberta to Toronto, and what is the cost of that coal at the mine? Is the coal from Alberta comparable to the Virginia bituminous coal coming into Canada? Can it be used in the domestic stokers to which I have referred?
It will be recalled that originally these subventions were voted so that our coal might be placed on a competitive basis with coal coming from the United States. As has been pointed out by the hon. member for Danfortih (Mr. Harris), the conservation of foreign exchange must be borne in mind. Everything should foe done to make it possible to use our Canadian coal.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The answer to the first question is yes. As to the second question, the freight rate cost of moving Alberta coal to Toronto is $8 per ton. Of that amount subventions will contribute $2.50. As to the comparative values of Alberta coal and imported United States coal, I must say I am not in a position to make a statement. I do know that some Alberta coal has high value. No doubt the values of coals for industrial or domestic purposes vary with the

mines from which they are produced. I do not know whether there is any standard gauge by which that can be measured.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Taking the freight rate of $8 and allowing the subvention of $2.50 we have it down to $5.50. That would be the freight rate at Toronto. What would be the cost of the coal at the mine in Alberta?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think I have that information.


Charles Edward Johnston: It is about $1.10, is it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that Alberta bituminous coal would bring about $2.50 at the mine.


Charles Edward Johnston: No; at the coal mine it is being sold for $2.50 a ton. But if it is bought in carload lots the price is much less than that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Probably $2.25 per ton.


Charles Edward Johnston: I should think it would be less than that.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Well, let us say that it would be $2. We would then bring the price up to $7.50 delivered at Toronto. That is not a bad price for that class of coal. Could not something be done to bring the cost down so that we should be able to use more of that coal? Should the freight rate be as high as that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The matter of freight rates has been the subject of frequent discussions with the railway companies. Obviously the only way to get the Toronto cost down is to pay the producer less for his coal, reduce the freight rate to the railways, or increase the subvention. This whole question was reviewed by the economic committee which hon. members know has been set up in Ottawa to study the relationship of these things to our war effort. That committee had under consideration the question of foreign exchange and as a result we have included the amount mentioned here for the movement of coal this year. If we are to pay more subventions, we shall have to vote more money. If we raise the duty, it will increase the cost to the domestic and industrial user. Having regard to all the factors, the conclusion was reached that the wisest thing to do was to continue, broadly speaking, along the line that has been followed in the past.


Charles Edward Johnston: A few minutes ago the Minister of Mines and Resources referred to the importation of coal from the United States. I have before me a

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
return tabled on June 12 in answer to a question asked by the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Fair). This return shows that in
1938	the Canadian coal production was valued at $43,982,171, and the preliminary estimate of the 1939 production was $48,258,199. I should like to compare this production with the value of the importations from the United States and from countries other than the United States. In 1929 the importations from the United States were valued at $50,439,329 while the importations from countries other than the United States were valued at $5,573,939. In 1938 the importations from the United States were valued at $27,329,477 and from other countries, $8,496,437. The figures for
1939	are $33,284,251 for importations from the United States, and $8,294,434 for importations from other countries. The importations by months are as follows:
From the From other
1939-	United States countries
September	$6,644,720	$1,076,191October	
3,469,782	701,396November	
3,091,195	548,668December	2,406,712	234,633January	
2,895,051	87,563February	
2,197,463	138,174March	
2,136,850	57,797April	
2,134,974	57,490
That is a tremendous amount of money. Up to September, 1939, the value of the importations of coal from the United States was greater than that of the total production in Canada. That is almost unbelievable in these times. I could not help but recall the speeches which the governor of the Bank of Canada delivered in Montreal and Toronto on April 22 and April 26 respectively. He was pointing out the urgency of conserving exchange. I cannot think of a better way of conserving exchange than to use Canadian coal. It would not create a hardship for the United States; in fact it would be just the other way round, because we should be able to use the exchange we saved to buy war materials from that country.
The governor of the Bank of Canada pleaded with the Canadian people to conserve exchange in order that we might have Canadian dollars with which to buy ships, shells and other forms of munitions from the United States. The Canadian production of coal offers a source of supply of Canadian dollars which could be turned into munitions of war. Every month we could save from three to four million dollars, and up to September, 1939, we would have saved about 33J million dollars.
The governor of the Bank of Canada went on to say that the real cost of this war must be carried on out of current production. If
we follow the argument of the governor of the Bank of Canada the Canadian market should be saved for Canadian coal. The Minister of Mines and Resources has said that this might raise the cost a little, but I think that would be offset by the added benefit to the Canadian people. We would save ten or eleven per cent on exchange right away, without considering the increased employment which would be given. We have about 750,000 unemployed employables in Canada, and if these people could be put to work to produce about 331, million dollars worth of coal, think what a tremendous help it would be to this country! An additional
2,000,000 tons of coal would have to be produced, 1,000,000 tons of which could be allotted to Nova Scotia and the other 1,000,000 tons to Alberta and the Crowsnest mines. I venture to say that that one step would do away with our present unemployed of 750,000. Millions of additional ton miles would be moved on the railways, which would necessitate the employment of more trainmen. Certainly we would require more miners as well as truckmen to deliver this coal around. Taking it all in all, with the situation as it stands now in war time, I think this matter should be looked into immediately.
If in all practicable ways we follow the advice of the governor of the Bank of Canada, to conserve our Canadian dollars, funds will be available to buy from the United States the war supplies we so greatly need. The governor pointed out that the need of saving our dollars is imperative, because the treasuries of Britain and France-he spoke at that time of France because it was then one of the allies of Great Britain-were not bottomless; sooner or later the bottom of their treasuries would be reached, and he appealed to the people of Canada to save. If he meant what he said, if we must save every dollar we can, and if the cost of this war is to be met from current production, obviously one of the most necessary avenues is the saving of money on importations of coal. We should be killing two birds with one stone.
People all over the country are very much concerned about this matter. I have not had any communication from Nova Scotia, because that is not my riding, but I have received many letters from Alberta in which the writers have referred to this very matter. Whether their motives are patriotic or not, I am not going to discuss, but they say: "The government is pleading with us to buy war savings certificates, and we have not any money with which to buy them. If the government will give us the opportunity to go to work in these mines and produce coal for Canadians and save the exchange, we shall be only too

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
willing to buy war savings stamps." These men are sitting along the tracks; they are unemployed.
The other day I received a non-political letter from the city of Drumheller. It is signed by Mr. Harold A. Brown, the city clerk
and treasurer, who says:
I am instructed by the city council to send you a copy of the resolution which received the endorsation of the council at the last meeting, as follows:
That whereas there is considerable unemployment and stagnation in the Drumheller valley, and, that the production of coal has reached its lowest tonnage over a large number of years.
Is it not amazing, Mr. Chairman, in this time of war, when we need to conserve our exchange, that according to the council of the city of Drumheller coal production is the lowest it has been in years? The resolution continues:
And whereas it is of national importance that the Dominion of Canada be placed on a one hundred per cent productive basis in regard of commodities to enable her to earn the maximum amount possible for the carrying-on or the war.
Therefore, be it resolved:
That at this meeting of the Liberals-
So that I am not arguing from the political point of view.
-of the Drumheller valley district we heartily recommend to the dominion government that they take steps to put through an order that will ensure the consumption of Canadian coal in the Dominion of Canada to the fullest extent of its capacity for production, and, we particularly recommend that the three prairie provinces i.e. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta be confined to the consumption of coal produced in the Dominion of Canada, except in such cases which shall be defined by the fuel controller.
That gives clear evidence of what these people desire, and as I have said, it is a nonpolitical appeal. We do not intend to make it a political football; but the urgency is there.	.
I had a telegram from one other organization in Drumheller-I do not happen to have it here-who plead for the same thing. This great industry of Alberta and Nova Scotia is at an all-time low. The condition in Alberta is not the same as the minister described in relation to Nova Scotia. I do not think there should be any differentiation between the two producing areas, and I am not pleading especially for one more than for the other, because I recognize that mining, like agriculture, is one of our basic industries.
While speaking on this question I am reminded of an article which was written by Doctor W. L. Stewart, well-known commentator, and which has been reprinted from the June, 1940, issue of the National Home Monthly, having a circulation of over 250,000

copies. He is dealing with the subject of the importation of coal, and I will read part of the article:
What are we thinking of, if we continue this wastage at such a time as the present? It was bad enough in relatively quiet years to send so much money out of Canada, for a benefit in great measure illusory: it meant that we had to provide a livelihood in idleness for large bodies of miners who, but for our habit of thus buying abroad, would have been sustaining themselves by their own labour. But it is many times worse now, when there is so much that we cannot produce at home to meet our war needs, so much for which we are bound to draw upon United States manufacture, and for which we must pay in such American dollars as are obtainable only at high discount in exchange for our own. We cannot too soon bethink ourselves of how to maintain a tolerable balance of trade, and each practicable reduction of imports makes the task easier. Coal is our most obvious product on which to become, as the Germans in their four-year plan say, "selfsufficient."	.
To learn from a resourceful enemy is a valuable practice, especially during war.
I do not know whether the minister has considered this question as thoroughly as he might have done, but I am convinced that a tremendous saving of Canadian dollars may be made by putting our miners bo work. I do not contend for the total exclusion of coal from the United States, because probably some anthracite from that country will be required for special processes in manufacture, but certainly all our bituminous coal could be supplied from Nova Scotia and Alberta. I endorse without hesitation what the minister said a while ago, that the coal from Alberta, particularly that of the Crowsnest pass, is of exceptionally high quality.
In my opinion the minister would be well-advised to put on an intensive campaign of advertising of Alberta coal. In some parts of the dominion there is a wrong conception of the quality of both Nova Scotia and Alberta coals. Possibly the large concerns in eastern Canada which deal in coal are inclined to misrepresent it. I know definitely that it has been misrepresented in this city. Not over a week ago I was talking to a man who owns an apartment house here, and, speaking of what he called Drumheller coal, he asked, "Do you fellows out in Alberta use that coal?" I said, "Why, yes, we use it all the time." "Well," he said, that is funny, because I got a load about six months ago, and before it was in my cellar two months it was all broken apart and was just dust." I said, "Certainly you did not have good Alberta coal." "Well," he said, "I bought it as good Drumheller coal." I know that he could not have had coal of good quality, because I put Drumheller coal in my basement, and after having had it there over a year I needed an axe to break it. So

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
there must be some adverse influence at work, undermining confidence in Nova Scotia and Alberta coal. I think the minister should do in his department something like the Minister of Agriculture has done in his, and put on a vigorous advertising campaign. There is no doubt that people can be educated to use a good Canadian product. I do not know that he would have to increase the subvention, but it .might be well to advance _it from $2.50 to $3, for even at that cost it would be well worth while to absorb our unemployed. But as I have said, I doubt if he would have to do that if the department employed a sound system of salesmanship to convince the public of the value of this Canadian product. It was stated by the Minister of Agriculture that a similar activity in his department had led to a great increase of consumption of beef and apple juice. The same could be done with Alberta and Nova Scotia coal. Through a proper campaign of advertising, and with further assistance in the way of increased subventions, we could do wonders in the coal business. We could put 750,000 men to work and allay a very unsettled economic mental condition, and at the same time we could build up a vast reserve of over $2,500,000 every month in foreign exchange. If we are serious about this thing, the minister has a wonderful opportunity to make a great contribution to Canada's war effort.


Jean-François Pouliot: The minister a moment ago mentioned the economic committee that dealt with the question. I presume it is the committee of which Mr. Graham Towers and Mr. Clark, of the Department of Finance, are members. Is that so?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, they recommended some curtailments and I will surprise the minister by telling him how they understand the word economy. Both were appointees of the Bennett government and I have been waiting a long time to tell this little story. I wonder if the minister knows how many telephones there are in the Bank of Canada building? There are 750 telephones, and 450 girls have each a telephone. Mr. Towers advises Canadians to tighten their belts, but he is a civil servant getting $30,000. "Practise economy," he says, "you Canadians. I receive a fat salary; I do not have to do that." I hope the minister will take with a grain of salt all the recommendations that come from these Bennett appointees, Mr. Towers and Mr. Clark. I will ask the Minister of Finance to make a little investigation. I have here a list of the telephones and I will send it to the minister.
#5828-HI


Mr. ILSLEY:: If the hon. gentleman will send it to me I will look at it. I am told that the list is a list not of telephones but of the number of persons who can be reached by telephone. The number of telephones is a small fraction of 750.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister. What I say is not a censure of anyone in the committee but I will tell the government that there is extravagance. Why? Look at Hansard of February 8, 1937. It is impossible for members of parliament to get information in regard to the Bank of Canada. The minister will remember that when I asked whether Brooks, the doorman who accompanied Mr. Bennett around the world, was paid by the dominion while on that trip, I was told that I had no business to ask for that information. Mr. Dunning told me so, and even my revered chief, the Prime Minister, said it was none of my business. I hold here a letter from a man who has had a most nefarious influence in Canadian politics, Mr. Charles Dunning. The letter is dated March 1, 1937, addressed to myself and reads:
Replying to yours of February 25th, the government some time ago gave consideration to the position of the Bank of Canada in connection with matters such as that mentioned in your letter, and it was decided that the [DOT] same procedure would be adopted as in the case of the Canadian National Railways. I cannot, therefore, supply you with the information requested.
There it is. We members of parliament are watchdogs of the treasury, just as the minister is, and we do not want a cent of money from the Canadian exchequer spent lavishly and without useful purpose. But members of parliament are prevented from getting proper information, as I have been myself repeatedly by Mr. Dunning. Of course, I admit with the minister that in some cases there is a duplication of names, but they are very few. What do members who are business men, professional men, think-


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. McCann):: Order. The question the hon. gentleman is discussing has nothing to do with coal. This resolution relates to a grant for the Department of Mines and Resources.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am discussing the
dominion fuel board and the reduction in the estimate. However, I have said enough.


James Lorimer Ilsley: With reference to the question of telephones, the hon. gentleman has sent me a memorandum with regard to the Bank of Canada's telephone directory, July 8, 1940, and I find that the situation is just as I stated. On the first page I find a local telephone, local 361, which appears nine times



Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
beside the names of nine persons. The hon. gentleman has counted these names and has counted the same telephone a great many times. He has counted local 361 nine times on one page in order to reach his total of 750.


Mr. SOPER:: The hon. member for Bow River has made certain statements that are misleading. In Ontario we are informed from Nova Scotia that no coal is available this year. It has all been taken for transports. No Nova Scotia coal is being offered in Ontario, and, on the other hand, what the hon. gentleman says with regard to Alberta coal is not correct. He says that we can buy it at $1.75 a ton, but the price is nearly twice that when the coal is cleaned and sized and ready to be shipped to Ontario; and if we do not buy the best coal procurable there will not be less than three tons of slack to the car after we have finished a car of Alberta coal. I do not think the hon. member should make such statements; they are very misleading to the rest of the house.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The minister
informed me that the freight rate on coal from Alberta was $8-that is, 40 cents a hundred. A car of soap going from Toronto to Vancouver carries a freight rate of $1. Soap has a higher freight rate than coal, . and it goes through the mountains. At the same time Alberta coal comes to Toronto at the rate of 40 cents a hundred. I do not like to talk about Toronto but it is the centre. It seems to me that is a high rate in comparison with the rate on the soap going through to Vancouver. I understand that the reason for the rate on soap is that it competes with a water borne freight, but we have many freight rates that meet in competition with water borne freight. This is an important matter. As the minister said, until we get the price of coal down to a competitive basis by reducing the freight rate or the price at the mine we cannot do anything. I wonder if they know exactly how much it does cost to take a trainload of coal to Toronto. Are there any figures indicating the cost, or is it an arbitrary figure fixed by the railways on the assumption of what the traffic will stand? This is most important from the standpoint of conserving Canadian exchange. One United States dollar conserved is worth a great deal to the country. I urge the minister to do all in his power in this regard and I am sure the people themselves will cooperate when they know the urgency of the matter. But certainly a lead will have to be given by the government. Of course, I am discussing only Alberta coal because I do not know much

about Nova Scotia coal. I know nothing about its qualities. I imagine what I have said about Alberta coal applies also to Nova Scotia, although Nova Scotia coal can be used in Montreal while it cannot be used to the same extent in Toronto.


Clarence Gillis: How are the subsidies paid? If Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation send a million tons of coal into Ontario, they file a statement; does the department accept that statement and make the payment? I am also informed that coal mined and marketed in Nova Scotia, hauled about twenty miles, receives the same subventions as coal hauled to Ontario. Is that possible?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no subvention paid on coal used in Nova Scotia at all.


Clarence Gillis: Is the minister sure?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Quite.


Clarence Gillis: I am not so sure.


Ernest George Hansell: I might point out to the committee and to the people of Canada that the subvention known as the subvention for the movement of coal is not paid to the coal companies. The coal miners themselves do not benefit directly through the payment of the subvention. The subvention is on the movement of coal, and is paid to railway and transportation companies. The only way by which the coal mining industry, employers or employed, benefits is indirectly through the subvention enabling the industry to compete in markets where otherwise it could not, and so selling that much more coal. Of course I consider that quite a benefit.
One hon. member a little while ago mentioned advertising. Is the department advertising Canadian coal at all either in Canada or abroad?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; the department has expended no money in advertising Canadian coal in Canada or abroad.


Ernest George Hansell: There has, however, been a little advertising done. Not long ago, in the March issue of the magazine called Liberty there was an article entitled "Canada's Unwanted Wealth.'' This exhaustive article pleaded for the utilization by Canadians of our Canadian coal. Then in the April issue of Maclean's magazine there was an editorial under the caption, "A National Policy for Coal in Wartime." In addition there was in the National Home Monthly an article entitled "Patriotism and Coal". These articles in these three magazines would go into probably three-quarter of a million homes.

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
That is not display advertising, of course, but simply articles written in the interest of Canadian coal.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: May I ask who the authors of the articles were?


Ernest George Hansell: I cannot say who the author of the article in Liberty was. The article in Maclean's was an editorial, and the article in the National Home Monthly was by H. L. Stewart. I am only pointing that there are writers in Canada who realize that our coal deposits are a national asset, especially in time of war.
I observe that item 145 is increased by half a million dollars. Does that mean that the rate of subvention is increased, or does the increase come about through the expectation that more Canadian coal will be moved?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no increase in the rate of subvention, but the expectation is that a larger amount of coal will be used in Canada, and consequently there will be a larger movement.
In respect of advertising. I am advised that the department has not carried any advertising. The fuel research laboratories published pamphlets or leaflets giving the results of experimental work as to how Canadian coal could be most effectively used.


Ernest George Hansell: I referred last night to some excellent advertising by the Department of Agriculture. It seems to me that some advertising should Be done along the same lines for Canadian coal: for example, a little domestic scene showing people enjoying their home fireside. Also one of the best forms of advertising at this time would be an appeal to the patriotism of the Canadian public in this time of war to buy Canadian coal, thus conserving our foreign exchange. That might be written up in Canadian periodicals and help materially.


Mr. WHITMAN:: The government have a branch known as the fuel research laboratories. This branch has done some valuable work, but I believe it should be called upon at this time to assist in furthering the use of Nova Scotia and Alberta coal in Canada. Near Winnipeg a coke oven is being operated which is using 100 per cent Canadian coal. In Hamilton there is a coke oven which is not using any Nova Scotia coal at all. A coke oven in Montreal uses about 33 per cent Nova Scotia coal. Would it not be possible for our fuel research laboratories to apply themselves to the question of the use of Canadian coal entirely in those three coke ovens? The coke produced by those ovens is used largely as domestic fuel. If what I suggest were done, the hon. member for Temiscouata would not 95826-1614
then be compelled to buy United States or European anthracite; he could use Canadian coal that has been converted into coke, which is a splendid fuel for this country. It should be the business of the fuel research laboratories to help the government to further the use of Canadian coal, as it did in Winnipeg.
Would the government not be doing well to supply with Canadian coal even at a loss those three coke ovens that are producing domestic fuel? For the past ten or fifteen years we have been paying a deficit on the Canadian National Railways and getting nothing for it. Would it not be possible for the government to insist that Canadian coal be carried at a reduced rate from Alberta or from Nova Scotia, as the case may be, to those three large consuming centres? There will be a loss on that railway in any event, and this would assist the miners in both Alberta and Nova Scotia to make a living. I was surprised that the hon. member for Cape Breton South did not take exception this afternoon to the statement by the hon. member for Danforth that Canadian coals were not suitable for use with the present equipment installed in the city of Toronto. I was surprised that this statement was allowed to go unchallenged. We have coals second to none in the world; I am, of course, speaking of bituminous coals.


Joseph Henry Harris: I do not wish
to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but I did not say that we could not use Canadian coal in the city of Toronto. I said that we were anxious to use it, but that the research branch here had not advised us in the matter of changing the furnaces and grate-bars to make them more suitable for the consumption of Canadian coal. I meant to say that the stokers are designed to use United States coal, and we have not been advised as to the changes necessary in order to consume Canadian coal.


Frederick Primrose Whitman: I thank the hon. gentleman for his explanation. I know from experience that Nova Scotia bituminous coal can be used in the underfeed stoker in apartment houses or industrial plants using bituminous coal, whether they be in Toronto or Montreal. Stokers of this type are used in connection with the elimination of smoke in residential areas.
I should like to see the miners of Nova Scotia put on a yearly basis of earnings, rather than on a tonnage or a daily basis. For a number of years we have heard about the hard times Nova Scotia has been experiencing. We have been told that they were paid so much a ton or so much a day, and

Supply-Mines-Geology Branch
that seemed reasonable. But when we discovered the amount of money they earned in a year, it turned out to be very small, not enough to keep body and soul together.
In conclusion, I would ask once more that our fuel research branch do more work on this question of supplying our coke ovens with Canadian coal.


Clarence Gillis: Has the minister any information with regard to the statement made by the hon. member for Lanark that no Nova Scotia coal would be available in Ontario this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the
statement is not correct, that Nova Scotia coal will come into Ontario this year.
, Mr. GILLIS; A moment ago the hon. member for Lanark stated that notice had been received that no Nova Scotia coal would be available this year. I have a file on this matter, but I do not want to weary the minister or hold up his estimates, since I have made two statements already on the situation in Nova Scotia. But if there is such a demand for coal that Nova Scotia coal will not be available, surely that means that there is a market here for one or two million tons of coal previously supplied from the maritimes. Is there any intention on the part of the government to expand the coal industry of Nova Scotia? As I said "before, it is on the way out. I think the solution of the problems of that province lies in the creation of new industries, and I hope that the Minister of Munitions and Supply, who is spending millions of dollars on new industries, will be able to divert some of that money to our part of the country. Subventions and charity hand-outs will not stabilize any industry. As long as it is the policy of the government to assist by way of subventions, then we are in favour of them and would like to see them extended, but I do not think that policy represents any permanent solution for the problems of the mining industry of the province.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch.
11,5. Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $4,000,000.
Mr. NEILL:: There is no decrease in this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; there is an increase.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
|
Lands, parks and forests branch.
l't6. Branch administration, $20,920.
Mr. O'NEILL:	I believe the remarks I
wish to make are in order under this item. Recently there was completed in Alberta a road between two of the finest parks in North America, Jasper and Banff national parks. A great deal of money was spent in the development of this road, and also in the completion of the Big Bend highway, the last remaining link of the trans-Canada highway in western Canada. It was argued by many people in the west that these highways would be beneficial from the tourist point of view. Recently in a western newspaper I saw that during the first six days the Big Bend highway was open it was used by 2,000 cars; and I am in receipt of a letter, dated July 21, from the secretary of a board of trade in the interior of British Columbia, stating that tourist travel over that highway is now in excess of 400 cars a day.
I mention these matters because I wish tQ commend the minister who is in charge of this department. I know he is very much in favour of these tourist routes, and I believe his judgment in this regard has been borne out since the opening of these new roads. Enclosed in the letter from the secretary of the board of trade was a copy of a letter which was received from a gentleman in Tacoma, Washington, and from which I quote in part:
Last fall my wife and I and two other couples had the pleasure of spending part of our vacation in Canada-and stayed longer than we expected. The reason for doing so was that we found the people and the country everything you claim it to be-game was plentiful, but I want to assure you that we were not game hogs and we enjoyed your courtesies immensely. We came back with about one-half of the quota of birds. It was not the fault of the birds or the hunters, but we felt that if we shot too many they would become extinct in time.
Just on that point, Mr. Chairman, I regret to notice that under item 158 the grant to Jack Miner has been reduced by SI ,500. I regret that the government has found it necessary to reduce this vote, because from the tourist point of view, I believe we underestimate the value of our feathered friends.
Again quoting from the letter:
We also had the misfortune of having an auto accident, which was purely out of anyone's control, and found your mounted police to be real gentlemen and anxious to help in every possible manner, so that we could continue on our journey homeward safely.

Supply-Mines-Parks Branch
I believe in Canada we take our mounted police force too much for granted, and we do not thoroughly appreciate them. The letter continues:
I had hoped I would be able to make the trip again this year, but our programme does not permit. Therefore, I am taking the liberty of mailing you the enclosed cheque for $100, which is to go toward your war relief fund as my part in helping Canada and its citizens in this great task. This is part of the money which I would have spent on my vacation in Canada, and I hope it will be used for the best and most needed purpose.
There are many things I could say about your country and people. In closing I wish to state that 1 hope I will be able to visit Canada again in the future when time and business conditions permit.
A letter like that certainly bears out the judgment of the minister in connection with the spending of money on the Banff-Jasper road, and on the Big Bend highway.
For some little time I have been endeavouring to find out the policy of the government respecting interned men in Canada. If it should become the government's policy to make those men work, I would respectfully call the attention of the committee to the fact that at the present time there is no western outlet to Jasper park. The road is completed from Kamloops to Blue river, but the stretch to Jasper is not completed. If those interned men are to be made work, I suggest that those in British Columbia might assist in building that North Thompson road from Blue river to Jasper. There might be some justification for the government's doing this.
I understand, of course, that the building of roads in any province is a provincial matter. At the same time, however, I believe it is within the jurisdiction of the minister to build roads to or through national parks. That being so, in the event of the government deciding to use those men, they might be put to the building of that road. In my opinion it would be money well spent, and would give a western outlet to Jasper park. The people who now come in from the east or from the south up to Calgary, from there to Banff and then to Jasper have no western outlet. They have to go back over the road they have already travelled. This road would also provide a means of getting into Jasper park from the west.
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
147. General administration, operation and maintenance of services, including Wood buffalo park, $268,334.
Mr. JAQUES:: Why were all the animals slaughtered in Wainwright pa: k?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We would proceed more rapidly if the hon. member would ask his question under vote 156.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
' 151. General scientific, economic and administrative services, $118,440.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Is it under this item that certain areas are being replanted with trees?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Very little replanting or reforestation is being carried on by the department. The moneys in this vote are to take care of scientific studies of Canadian forests and as to the best conditions under which the growth of trees occurs. There are further studies respecting the uses to which wood can be put.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is any branch of the department looking after reforestation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; that work is not carried on directly by ourselves. A good deal of work of that kind is being carried on by the various provincial governments, who of course own the forests.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
155. Land registry-land registry, seed grain collections, administration of ordnance; admiralty and public lands, $57,263.
John Ritchie MacNicol: What does this cover?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The descriptive heading gives a general indication of-the purpose of the vote. For instance, the Department of Mines and Resources has maintained a central office of records respecting lands owned or otherwise controlled by the dominion government. We have the administration of ordnance and admiralty lands which are not directly under the control of the Department of National Defence. There is also the administration of timber and grazing on soldier settlement charged lands and on military reserves. There is also the matter of seed grain collections, to which reference was made in the house the other day. J great many years ago advances were made for the purchase of seed grain and fodder in Saskatchewan and Alberta, and from time to time efforts have been made to collect these sums. In many instances the provinces were equally responsible with the federal government for the advances. Boards were set up to investigate these claims, and upon completion of the investigations the claims were either confirmed, written off or compromise settlements, made with the debtors.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Mines-Parks Branch
Lands, parks and forests branch.
National parks bureau-
156. National parks and historic sites services, $1,144,215.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: Perhaps I could answer now the question raised by the hon. member for Wetaskiwin. As I understand it, his question had reference to the abandonment of the Wainwright buffalo park.


Norman Jaques: More to the slaughter of the animals.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The number of animals
in Wainwright buffalo park had increased considerably. This park covers an area of 1974 square miles, and there were in it two or three thousand buffalo as well as a considerable number of deer of various kinds. The net cost of the park since its establishment was in the neighbourhood of $500,000, and the annual maintenance cost ran from $45,000 to $50,000. In order to keep down the animal population, several years ago slaughterings took place at which time it was discovered that some of the buffalo as well as some of the deer were infected with tuberculosis. The Wainwright buffalo park was established to conserve wild life, but after a time the urgency of that need decreased. Elk Island park is located some twenty-five or thirty miles out of Edmonton, and there are over a thousand healthy buffalo in that park where grazing conditions are much better than they were at Wainwright. There are also about seventy-five buffalo in Riding Mountain park in Manitoba, where grazing conditions are also good. More than ten years ago several thousand buffalo were moved to the Wood buffalo park in northern Alberta. It is not known how many buffalo are there at the present time, but we believe the number has been substantially increased. The original purpose for which Wainwright buffalo park 'was established, that is to preserve buffalo, is amply accomplished.
This park has now been taken over for the duration of the war by the Department of National Defence. Its size enables the manoeuvring and training of troops as well as the use of artillery. It is not easy to find a location on the prairies for artillery practice where shells may be thrown from five to seven miles. Then the park is fenced, which gives an additional protection in connection with the training of troops and the use of artillery. These briefly are the reasons why the animals were slaughtered last fall. We realized as much as possible on the meat and the hides of the animals after government inspection.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What is the cost
of the upkeep of that park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I said that the annual cost was from $45,000 to $50,000 a year.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: There seems to be
considerable misunderstanding in connection with the fishing licence fee in Waterton lakes park. What is the licence fee in Alberta, entitling a holder to fish anywhere in the province?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The suggestion was made
several months ago that fishing licences should be required in the park. Naturally there was a good deal of criticism of and opposition to this suggestion. I am rather old-fashioned and I hold that there should be a charge for any service rendered. In all provinces a licence is necessary in order to fish in provincial waters, and some of the eastern provinces derive a substantial revenue from these licence fees. It was an anomaly in Alberta that a citizen who wanted to fish outside the park had first to secure a licence costing, I believe, $2.25, but when he went into the park he felt he was entitled to fish without a licence. It was in order to equalize the privileges in the parks and outside them that the suggestion was made that a licence fee should be charged.
The situation now is this. A person coming into Jasper or Banff park pays an entrance fee of $2. That fee entitles the person who pays it and the members of his family to fish, subject to the park regulations which, among other matters, govern the number of fish that may be taken. In Waterton lakes park, where, I am told, the fishing is not perhaps as good, the entrance fee is $1, and it carries the same privilege. Residents living in the park are required to pay the same licence fee as the ordinary resident of Alberta pays to the provincial government for a licence to fish outside the park.


John Horne Blackmore: Suppose that a man in charge of a group of girl guides or boy scouts came into the park; would the payment by him of the fee for entering the park entitle the young people with him to fish?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that if they are under sixteen years of age they have the privilege of fishing. One of the requests which is being urged upon the department is that we do something more to stock the park streams and lakes with fish. It is obvious that if we permit free fishing in the parks, the fact that it is free attracts a larger number of fishermen and the supply of fish is depleted, so that you have this insistent pressure to do something to provide more fish. We aim to make the requirements as fair and reasonable as possible. For the privilege of playing on parks which have golf courses,

Supply-Mines-Parks Branch
fees are collected, and I do not think that principle is an unreasonable one to put into effect in the administration of our parks.


John Horne Blackmore: Is there a fee for
entrance to and fishing in Glacier national park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is the hon. member referring to the United States park? I cannot say whether fees are charged there or not.


John Horne Blackmore: My information is
that no fee is charged for fishing in Glacier national park. A rather unique condition is set up by reason of the fact that Waterton lakes park and Glacier national park on the other side of the line immediately contiguous to it have been regarded as an international peace park, and therefore there is a sort of understanding on the part of people in the United States that, once having gained admission to Glacier national park, they are entitled similarly to admission into Waterton lakes park. The reason why I bring this matter to the minister's attention is that a good deal of displeasure is expressed by tourists in my constituency. A good many tourists come from the United States into my riding, because the road from Coutts, the chief mountain port of admission, runs through Cardston and other towns in my constituency, and we are in a good position to know what they think. Many of them regard it as a hardship that they have to pay a fee to enter Waterton lakes park. I am not committing myself as to whether they are right or wrong; I am merely conveying to the minister the picture as it appears to those who come to Cardston. A good many people in my constituency are of the opinion that, under conditions at present existing, it would be better if the fee for fishing in Waterton lakes park were abolished, at least so far as tourists from across the line are concerned.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In view of the observations of the hon. member I may briefly say that I have never yet seen anywhere people who would not perfer to have a government service for nothing to paying for it. Tourists who come to Waterton lakes park from the United States pay their entrance fee to the park the same as any Canadian citizen is required to do, and thereby are accorded the right to fish in the park under the conditions I mentioned a moment ago. I do not think there is any great hardship, and I should be astonished to learn that the fee militated against tourists coming in from the United States. In the eastern part of Canada many people come from the United States to fish in our streams and lakes; indeed, I was told
the other day that in many instances each salmon caught in New Brunswick rivers by a United States fisherman probably costs him one way and another about $1,000.


John Horne Blackmore: There is one other matter that I should like to bring to the minister's attention. He mentioned a moment ago that there is pressure to increase the supply of fish in the parks. How much money has been spent on the Waterton lakes fish hatchery in each of the years from 1936 to 1939 inclusive?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not at hand the information asked for by the hon. member, but I will have my officials ascertain it and give it to him privately.


John Horne Blackmore: The fact that the minister mentioned a moment ago the idea that fishing in the Waterton lakes park is not as good as it is in the other parks is perhaps some indication that the work of the fish hatchery at Waterton lakes park and the distribution of fish have been neglected to some extent. There must be some cause intervening which is producing that situation. I remember how famous as a fishing resort Waterton lakes park was when I was a boy. Numbers of people used to go there just to fish. As is well known, the main income derived from the tourist trade is not what we get by way of fees from those who go into the parks, but what is derived from the money these people spend in the towns and cities along the way, and therefore, if the expenditure of additional money on the fish hatchery in the park wrould make the park more attractive to tourists and thereby bring them in more readily, it would seem a wise measure to spend enough money on the fish hatchery to ensure satisfactory fishing conditions at all times. I have the impression that for some reason or another the fish hatchery is not functioning as satisfactorily as it should be. Is that because of inadequate funds?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the fish hatchery in Waterton lakes park has been operating successfully and that every year numbers of fry are placed in the waters within the park and occasionally supplied to areas of the province outside the park. It takes time fully to develop these projects. I can assure my hon. friend that he has not overstressed the importance of fishing in relation to our parks, and that the department is fully alive to that fact.


John Horne Blackmore: I had the impression that that was the case, and I thought that
Supply-Mines-Parks Branch

probably, if I expressed my opinion on the matter, it might not weaken the minister's hand in any way.
Lest some word I have said may be taken as a reflection on the man in charge of the fish hatchery, let me hasten to observe that at all times I have heard that the man in charge is efficient and very much interested in the development of fishing facilities in the park, but that perhaps he has not had at all times adequate financial support. If that should be found to be the case, may I urge that an unusual effort be made to provide him with the amount of money he considers necessary adequately to support the provision of sufficient fishing facilities within the park?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forests branch.
158. Grant to John Thomas (Jack) Miner, $2,500.
John Ritchie MacNicol: The minister himself is familiar with the splendid work that has been and is being done by Jack Miner, and I am sure he regrets as much as I do the reduction in this vote from $4,000 to $2,500. On one occasion when I was at Jack Miner's during last spring there were, as estimated by those who are capable of making such estimates, some 30,000 geese on the place, and I learned then that this number had grown from perhaps half a dozen that were there two or three decades ago when Jack Miner first began his conservation work. I often think the Canadian government, while he is living, ought to propose some testimonial of appreciation of the wonderful work he has done. He uses four hundred acres of land and raises 14,000 bushels of corn which he feeds yearly to the geese. It is a great sight to see the geese in the spring and fall, and multitudes of people go there in their cars to see this natural spectacle.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there is a general recognition of the splendid work that Mr. Miner has done and I regret as much as anyone else that the vote has been reduced to $2,500. Only the urgent need of conserving our financial resources wherever possible for the purposes of the war makes it necessary. In addition to this, he gets a salary of $750 a year from the government for part-time service as game warden, so that will help a little.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Mr. BlackmoreJ
Lands, parks and forests branch.
National parks bureau-
191. National parks, $171,125.
Mr. KUHL:: This is reduced by 80 per cent. That is a drastic cut in the appropriation for national parks. The government has been taking various means of conserving foreign exchange in Canada and this reduction seems to me to be penny-wise and pound-foolish, if the minister does wish to conserve foreign exchange. According to the "Canada Year Book", the money brought in by tourists from the United States is considerably in excess of the money which is received from the wheat crop. The money brought in by United States tourists in 1938 amounted to $253,000,000, and the valuation of the entire wheat crop of Canada, not merely exports but the entire crop, was $205,351,000. The government is overlooking a lucrative source of United States funds in cutting down the vote for national parks to this extent, because this is one of the easiest means of securing United States dollars. The government should do everything possible to improve our parks so as to attract tourists. Little advertising would then be needed. The best advertising is to put the parks in A-l condition so as to make them extremely attractive. I am informed that the road from the town of Jasper to the west gate has been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent that many tourists turn back. Has that condition been reported to the minister? It is a regrettable state of affairs especially when there is such an opportunity of obtaining United States funds by attracting tourists.
The same criticism can be made of practically every department of government. The reason for the reduction in appropriations is that there may be more money for Canada's war effort. That is a poor policy. The Minister of Finance has said that whatever is physically possible in this country must become financially possible, but that is not the situation with regard to what I have mentioned. These roads are not being kept up, but this is not for any lack of road material or manpower but because of the financial policy of the government. It is high time that the government changed its financial policy so that all these requirements could be met. Every question dealt with in this house is sooner or later met with the same answer- we have not the money. It is childish in the extreme that in every instance we have to admit that we cannot do what is necessary because we have not the tickets. We have

Supply-Mines-Parks Branch
the materials and the men to meet every situation, but we are unable to do anything because of lack of money.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Lands, parks and forest branch.
National parks bureau-
193. Forest conservation, $40,000.
John Horne Blackmore: I do not come from a forest area but I have long been interested in forests. How many cords of wood were exported from Canada as cord wood in 1939?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry I have not that information. This vote this year is practically all for fire protection purposes in the parks. We never know how much money will be required for the purpose; it depends largely on seasonal conditions. Last year there was a substantial special vote which, in addition to aiding fire protection, was expended in silvicultural work, that is examination of growing conditions in the timber areas in the various parks and forest experimental areas.


Norman Jaques: This vote is practically wiped out. Does that mean that the forests are to be totally unprotected from fire?


John Ritchie MacNicol: It means that we are
in a war.


Norman Jaques: If what I say is correct,
one could not have any greater proof that we must be clean mad, absolutely crazy. Not only are these forests worth the value of the timber but they have a value altogether apart from that. There is the permanent value from the point of view of tourists; there is even a climatic value; the very climate can be impaired by the loss of forests. Yet they are exposed to the risk of being utterly destroyed. I am not blaming the minister; I blame whoever imposes this absolutely insane financial system on this country, a system which has brought not only Canada but the empire to the very verge of destruction, the insanity of saying that we cannot do this and that because we have no money. It is a lie, and the empire is as a result exposed to the risk of destruction. I cannot find words strong enough to express my amazement that one of the greatest natural resources of Canada should be risked to suit the conventions of bankers, money-lenders and their stupid economists.


John Horne Blackmore: The reason why I
asked the question concerning cordwood is that I am informed that great quantities of our forest resources were cut down last
year and virtually thrown away in the form of cordwood. Has the minister any information as to what is being done? I understand that this absurd situation occurred, that cordwood cut in Canada was sent to Germany at a very low price and by Germany made into woodpulp and sold to the United States at a lucrative price. The result was that forest resources in certain provinces were greatly depleted. Could the minister inform me as to the correctness of that information?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot say how much cordwood was exported to Germany or any other country. Hon. members should keep this in mind, that the control of the forests of Canada in the area of the provinces is under provincial jurisdiction. This vote does not touch that at all; this vote covers fire protection in the park areas of Canada and forest experimental stations which are under federal jurisdiction. What any province may do with its forest resources is primarily a matter for the province to decide, since the province owns them. We cannot go to any province and say, you must handle your timber resources in this fashion or that. We would promptly be told to mind our own business.


John Horne Blackmore: I was not aware that this vote is purely for fire protection. It seems to me that there should be a note there to that effect, because it says, "forest conservation." I would suppose that referred to carelessness in logging, cutting Christmas trees and all that kind of thing. I do not wish to press the matter, because evidently the minister has not the information, but I think it would be wise for the dominion government to look towards the establishment of some kind of federal commission which would cooperate with the provinces and by which the provinces could be got together to consult regarding the conservation of our forest wealth. I am told that in this dominion there are many places where the wastage of forests is simply a shame and that this is going on at such a rate that future generations will find themselves almost in poverty with regard to forests in a country which was blessed as perhaps no other country in the world in that matter.
Since the minister has told us that this is purely for fire protection, would he inform the committee to what extent the dominion endeavours to supplement the efforts of the provinces in that matter? In my own province we have a serious situation because there are so many forests all through the Rocky mountains, and if a fire starts anywhere in British Columbia-this is no reflection on British



Supply-Mines-Parks Branch
Columbia of course-and comes across into Alberta, it then becomes the responsibility of both provinces. I understand that Alberta simply is not financially able to take care of fire protection in those forests; they are too extensive; we have them all up through the mountains, the Peace river country and the park areas. Has the dominion laid down any policy under which it contributes, both regularly and in emergencies, to assist the provinces in efforts to fight fire? Sometimes the loss by fire in our section of the country has been such as .to make angels weep, and we have been helpless to do anything about the matter.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The federal government does not assist, and as far as I am aware, never has in the past assisted, in the actual protection of provincial forests against fire, by any direct outlay of money. But for years the federal forest service, in association with the parks administration, has in certain forest experimental stations and in national parks carried on studies as to the best methods of protecting forests against fire, studies for instance as to the daily extent of fire hazards. As a result of those studies those in charge of forests or having forests, such as the lumber and the pulp and paper companies or the provincial governments, can estimate fairly accurately the increase in the fire hazard under certain weather conditions, and therefore are in a better position to be on guard against the outbreak of fires. The studies carried on in these forest experimental stations under federal direction have resulted in building up a body of knowledge that is being availed of to-day by lumber companies, pulp and paper companies and by provincial governments. That is a useful service and an important contribution to the preservation of our forests.
I quite agree with what my hon. friend said about the importance of conserving our forests. In fact I think a general indictment could be laid against the Canadian people for their carelessness in past years in connection with the handling or conserving of our timber wealth. It has been the history of every other country that sooner or later they have been driven to recognize that situation. To-day I think there is pretty generally widespread knowledge in Canada as to the need for sound conservation policies in connection with our forest resources. In many European countries, for instance, the timber crop is harvested just as a grain crop is harvested; that is, it is cut under scientific management.


John Horne Blackmore: Even Christmas trees.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In that way the perpetuation of the asset is secured. All these aspects of our forest heritage in Canada are being studied to-day in increasing measure, and at this point I would say that the work done by those in charge of operations in these forest experimental stations, and in our parks, has been a most valuable contribution to that study. I think public opinion generally throughout the country is being aroused in connection with the planting of trees and protection against forest fires. As a matter of fact, 86 per cent of all the fires that occur in Canada are attributed to carelessness on the part of individuals, while only about 14 per cent are brought about by natural causes, such as lightning. Quite obviously there is great opportunity here to inculcate in the minds of both young and old the need for extreme care in guarding against fire losses. Someone drives along a road through some timber. He throws a cigarette out of the window of his car, and that may bring about the destruction of thousands of dollars worth of good Canadian timber. The only way by which this asset can be protected is by developing the public consciousness of the need for this protection, and I think substantial progress has been made in that direction, particularly in the last ten or fifteen years.


Norman Jaques: I should like to point out-


Thomas Vien: I would say immediately that discussion of this question, which is under provincial jurisdiction, is out of order under this item. I was very much prompted to tell the minister a moment ago that the discussion did not arise under the item being considered. The question of the conservation of our forests is under provincial control, and does not arise here.


Norman Jaques: I was not going to refer to provincial matters at all. The national parks extend from Jasper to Banff and include a great part of the western side of Alberta. In connection with not only our forests but everything else we have followed the principle that we should save money and waste wealth. If our educational authorities and even the churches would reverse that maxim and teach the people to spend money and save wealth, we would all be a great deal better off and at the same time a great deal saner.


John Horne Blackmore: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, that this matter comes under provincial juirsdiction, but there are people in Canada who are coming to consider it more and more a federal matter. An industry such as mining, for example, is a provincial matter, but at the same time the dominion is

Supply-Mines-Immigration Branch
taking a great interest in it. I derived considerable inspiration from a speech delivered by Hon. Frank Carrel, who, I believe, is a member of the Quebec legislature.


Thomas Vien: He died three days ago.


John Horne Blackmore: That is too bad, because he was greatly interested in our forests. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if you would consider me out of order if I read just a short passage from this speech.


Thomas Vien: I think it would be out of order.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
Medicalm. Indian hospitals and general care of Indians, $1,404,012.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I merely rise to say that I had intended to say a good deal on these estimates, but because of the desire to finish the session I shall forego what I had to say until next session.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welfare and training-
ISO. Indian education, $531,565.
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Why has this grant for education been reduced to the extent of $92,000? This seems to me an essential item in connection with the Indians.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I suppose it may be said that this is partly in the interests of economy, but it arises mainly from the fact that the Indian school year is reduced from ten to nine months. This means that the Indian youngsters coming into these residential schools will have three months' holidays instead of two months. As a matter of fact, in actual practice we found that it was difficult to get them in the schools. Children come into residential schools to stay there for seven or eight months of the year, and then go home. Their homes may be hundreds of miles away.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does item 180 cover the residential schools?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. Possibly I should not have made reference to residential schools under this item, because it covers only day schools. Instead of operating day schools ten months of the year, we are operating them nine months.


George Hugh Castleden: That is a dominionwide policy, is it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Norman Jaques: Does that account for the whole of the saving?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There will be a reduction in the number of new schools being built this year, as compared with last year. That accounts for part of the reduction.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Have all the teachers in the reservation schools got certificates?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Practically all of them. The director informs me that there may be one or two who have special qualifications but who are not certificated. Practically all, however, are certificated teachers.


George Hugh Castleden: At page 131 of the estimates we find reference to a part-time inspector; in which province is that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In New Brunswick.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration branch-
184. Administration of the Immigration Act and the Chinese Immigration Act, $166,440.
Angus MacInnis: I understand the Chinese immigration to which this item refers is practically nil. I remember asking for some statistics in this connection a few years ago, and being told that about one Chinese enters Canada each year. Under those circumstances what is the reason for this vote? I am satisfied there must be some reason, because Chinese are not admitted to Canada at the present time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This item covers the
administrative service. It not only refers to the Chinese Immigration Act, but covers the administration of the whole department.


Howard Charles Green: Is there any change in the situation in connection with guest children coming from Great Britain?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The first movement-not a very large one, it is true, but I do not care to give the numbers-reached Canada last Friday. It is expected from time to time that additional numbers will be coming in.


Howard Charles Green: Are these the children who are coming out under agreement between the two governments?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: In the special committee which discussed the defence of Canada regulations a question was raised with regard to the power of deporting enemy aliens who have been found to be working against the best interests of the country. Apparently those people cannot be deported, no matter what they may have done during the war, provided they have been in Canada for five years. That is, they cannot be deported, under the
2564	COMMONS
Supply-Mines-Immigration Branch
Immigration Act, if they have acquired what is known as Canadian domicile. It will be understood that this is entirely different from Canadian citizenship. Have I correctly described the situation, and, if so, what steps does the government propose to take so that, at the proper time, it may be able to deal with those people?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If they have been admitted as immigrants and have been domiciled in Canada for five years, they are not subject to deportation. Under those circumstances they would have to be dealt with in another way. They have been dealt with by way of internment. But when it comes down to the question of deportation at this time to enemy alien countries-


Howard Charles Green: It is out of the question.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Of course, under war conditions it is impossible. There are leaving Canada no Ships which will touch at German or Italian ports.


Howard Charles Green: I realize that. The point is that even if they could be sent back, under the Immigration Act as it now stands the government has not power to deport them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, if they have acquired Canadian domicile, or if they were regularly admitted, given immigration status, and remained in Canada for five years.


Alan Webster Neill: In respect of Chinese, do they not need to be naturalized?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Howard Charles Green: Even if a man is a violent nazi in Canada, if he has been here for five years he cannot be deported.


Mr. THORSON:: Subject to section 43.


Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain what the government proposes to do in that situation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No special consideration has been given to that matter. I do not believe the cases are numerous.


Howard Charles Green: There are several hundred.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The arrangement is the same in the United States. If a Canadian leaves Canada to go to the United States, is admitted by their immigration authorities and has acquired citizenship in that country, he cannot be deported back to Canada. The same is true in Canadian law. If the alien is in Canada for less than five years, he can be deported. However, as I pointed out, the difficulty to-day is that of making deportation effective.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently in the last war the government took power to deport these people. Will the government not give consideration to the whole situation?
Some lion. MEMBERS: Carried.


Howard Charles Green: No; I want an answer.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. member is correct. During the last war the five-year domicile provision was overcome in some fashion. I am quite willing to say that we will give consideration to the matter. I still point out, however, that the practical problem is that of making deportation effective.


Howard Charles Green: I realize it could not be done at the moment.


Jean-François Pouliot: I said that last year.


Harry Rutherford Jackman: Would the minister care to give some details respecting the financial arrangements in connection with the cooperative plan of bringing out British children?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have nothing which could usefully be added to the statement I made in the house some five or six weeks ago. If my hon. friend will consult that, he will have all the information I am able to give him at the moment.


Howard Charles Green: What was Japanese immigration in the last two fiscal years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We are getting into a rather dangerous zone.


Howard Charles Green: It certainly is a dangerous zone for British Columbia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total number admitted for the year ended March 31, 1939, was forty-two, these being nearly all women and children. The number admitted for the year ended March 31, 1940, was thirty-six, also nearly all women and children.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special-Mines and geology branch.
190. To assist in provision of transportation facilities into mining areas and to authorize, subject to the approval of the governor in council, continuation of employment up to June 30, 1940, of extra temporary officers, clerks and employees already appointed under the terms of any item in the special supplementary estimates of this department, except the item for fur conservation, $58,000.
Howard Charles Green: There is a decrease of over
SI,000,000 in this vote which is to provide assistance in the building of roads into mining areas. Will the minister explain why this vote has been practically wiped out?
[Mr. Green.}

Sup-ply-Justice


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With the exception of two items, it is a revote to finish projects undertaken last year.


Howard Charles Green: Why is there not at least a portion of this work being carried on this year? At the moment, when we need gold so badly, it is of great importance to the country that our mines should be developed. It seems strange that the government should be wiping out this vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This vote first appeared in the estimates in 1936 and it has appeared each succeeding year. The only reason I can give is that the country is at war and that there is a need for conserving financial strength for war purposes.


Howard Charles Green: Gold is one of the things
we need most.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend and I are quite close on this matter, but it was the opinion of the government that this was one of the items which might be dropped during the war period. That decision may be wise or unwise, but it was felt warranted in view of the need of conserving our financial strength.


Howard Charles Green: How much money was spent
last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With the exception of
$30,000, this is a revote. The $30,000 is
required for some projects in the northwest territories in a newly developed mining area, and for some in the Yukon, which is a federal responsibility.


Howard Charles Green: Do not the provincial governments put up a like amount?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; the provincial governments put up one-third of the amount voted by the government. The expenditure on tourist roads was a fifty-fifty proposition.


Howard Charles Green: The development of mining roads has simply been dropped.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: For the time being.


Jean-François Pouliot: Will the Minister of Mines and Resources allow me to look at the correspondence between his department and Mr. Onesime Gagnon, minister of mines and fisheries in the previous Quebec government, in connection with the expenditure of moneys under this vote in the province of Quebec? My reason for asking this is that Mr. Gagnon took away all the correspondence from the Quebec files except one letter by the minister.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As far as I know there is no objection. This is public business.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
95. Departmental administration, $152,505.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I said before, there is always a good deal of difficulty in winding up the business of a session. One difficulty facing this parliament at this time is the fact that during the last couple of days the business of the other house has been completed and the members are rapidly departing for their homes. I hope sufficient of their number will remain to enable us to get our supply bill through the other house when it reaches there. To this end I feel we ought to decide that we will get through business in time to adjourn some time to-morrow morning. I was going to suggest that the house might be willing to sit on to-night until it had completed the estimates. I recall sessions of parliament some years ago when it was the rule, in winding up the business of a session, to sit through until the next day if the house was behind with its business. I know most hon. members are anxious to complete the work and I do not think an all-night sitting, should that be necessary, would deprive anyone of any of his privileges. If there are some subjects which hon. members would like to discuss particularly, they could be mentioned to the whips in order that they might be brought up in the early part of the evening. In that way they could be discussed without being hurried over unduly. Perhaps detailed discussion on some other matters might be deferred until we meet again.
Item stands.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines
and Resources) moved:
That the house do not adjourn at eleven o'clock.
George Hugh Castleden: Will there be any limitation upon the suspension of the hour of adjournment?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. We will exercise a reasonable discretion about that.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Supply-Justice
[Stage Direction]


The house resumed in committee of supply, Mr. Vien in the chair.
[Stage Direction]
95. Departmental administration, $152,505.
Howard Charles Green: Last Thursday the special committee on the defence of Canada regulations brought in their final report, which, as the minister knows, contained quite a number of recommendations. There has been no opportunity to discuss in the house the recommendations of the special committee, and I would ask the minister to tell us what the government intend to do with regard to the different recommendations. I believe that such an announcement would be of great interest not only to parliament but also to the country. The committee worked very hard and went thoroughly into the whole question, and I believe the members would appreciate being given an idea as to what the government propose to do.


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: As my hon. friend knows, I was away when this work was done. I have taken the opportunity to read the report of the special committee, and I congratulate its members upon the excellent work that was done there. It is the intention of the government, upon my recommendation, to have amendments brought in to the defence of Canada regulations embodying all, I believe, of their recommendations. I speak subject to correction, but it is my recollection that without exception, all of the recommendations have been accepted.


Howard Charles Green: In the work of the committee it became clear that the regulations have as a basis ministerial responsibility as distinguished from judicial responsibility. For example, the decision under regulation No. 21 as to who is to be detained rests with the Minister of Justice, and there can be a review of the situation by a committee which in practice is a high court judge, but he merely recommends to the Minister of Justice what further action should be taken, so that in the end decision on this review rests on ministerial responsibility. As the minister knows, that is a grave responsibility, involving in some instances the liberty of British subjects. I suggest to the minister that it might facilitate the administration of the regulations if the government were to appoint a solicitor general, working perhaps under the Minister of Justice, but who could make his main concern the administration of these regulations and similar measures. I do not believe it is humanly possible for the minister personally to review 
all the cases in which a discretion is left with him. The result is that the decision must be made by a group of senior civil servants, all excellent men, but I do not think it is fair to them to place that responsibility upon their shoulders, and I suggest that people whose rights are being dealt with under the regulations should be assured of their individual cases being reviewed thoroughly by a minister.
I would not question for a minute the work which the Minister of Justice himself has done. Nobody in Canada could be more suitable to me personally to administer the regulations. It is simply that he has so much other work to do, work which may be deemed of even greater importance.
It might make for better feeling all round if some minister were appointed whose main work would be to administer these regulations. It would be an unpleasant job, because, after all, nobody wants to deprive another Canadian of his liberty.
I offer this suggestion to the government because I think it merits some consideration.


Ernest Lapointe: I thank
my hon. friend for his kind words. I assure him that any suggestion he makes will be carefully considered.
It is a question whether another officer with a new title, instead of the present officers of the department, should go into these files as prepared by the police. It is a matter for consideration whether, as has happened in some other departments owing to the increase of work occasioned by the war, some outsider should be brought in temporarily as an assistant deputy minister, or whether the appointee should be a solicitor general. But whether it is a solicitor general or some other officer who examines the case, the Minister of Justice cannot escape the responsibility which is his under the law. That responsibility remains, whoever in the department helps him before he reaches the decision.
May I here pay a tribute to the officers of the Department of Justice. The department is not over-manned, far from it; it is one of the departments of the government in which, although the work has largely increased, there has been practically no increase in staff. Our officers are doing a tremendous amount of work, and they have been all the time loyal and faithful.
The suggestion of my hon. friend will be considered. I would be only too pleased if I could be relieved of a part of my work, although, as I say, the responsibility will always be mine.


Angus MacInnis: It is to be regretted that
we have not had an opportunity to discuss the report of the special committee on defence

Supply-Justice
regulations. I am not, however, going to attempt to speak on it to-night, but there is a point which I would draw to the attention of the minister, because I believe it is exceedingly important.
Since the war began, a number of organizations have been declared illegal, and certain members of those organizations have been interned. But by and large the ordinary organizations by which the people of this country carry on their activities have not been interfered with and I do not expect that they will be. For instance, trade unions have not been interfered with. They are carrying on as usual, but certain officials of trade unions have been interned without the reasons therefor having been made public. I suggest to the minister that where it is found necessary to intern officials of organizations, the reason should be made public if at all possible. If the president or secretary of a trade union be interned, it should be stated that he was interned because of membership in an illegal organization, or for whatever reason made the internment necessary, so that there would be no suggestion of his being interned because he was an officer of a trade union, whether we like that particular union or not. The minister will see the logic of this. It would remove every opportunity to say that the government is attacking organized labour, with which I am satisfied the government does not intend to interfere. I leave that thought with the minister. He knows the persons I have in mind, and I have no doubt he knows the necessity that exists for removing every opportunity for creating suspicion and distrust.. That, to me, is most important.


Ernest Lapointe: I will
keep in mind the suggestion my hon. friend has made, but he knows that as far as I am concerned, members of trade unions will not be in any way interfered with.


Angus MacInnis: I agree with that.


Ernest Lapointe: I believe in trade unions.


George Hugh Castleden: It is said that the
price of freedom is eternal vigilance. I doubt very much whether the people of Canada realize this to the extent that they should. It has also been truly said that many of those things which we take for granted as part of our institutions under the British flag are accepted and not appreciated until possibly we lose them. I cannot urge too vigorously that the people of Canada be kept informed- and this is the keynote of what I have to say- and that everything possible be done to maintain the trust, the confidence of the people. We are passing through a dangerous time, and
any Canadian worthy of the name will support to the utmost the regulations that are aimed at protecting us through these trying times when sabotage and betrayal from within are so rampant. Reading through the regulations and studying them, one must feel that there are sections under which a wide interpretation may be read into regulations under which a person might be charged. This leads to serious curtailment of democratic rights. Curtailment of these rights in such matters as criticism of government action may go too far, and it is important that we should maintain, even at this time, the democratic right to exchange ideas.
The other question is that of law. It seems that due process of law has been too severely reduced in some instances. We in this group believe that liberty has a difficulty in living amid greed and avarice, and we see little chance of true democracy thriving in a country where there is great poverty and extreme wealth. I hope the minister will remember that the democratic rights of people under the British flag have been won through centuries of struggle, persecution and even bloodshed. I know the responsibility that rests upon the minister is great, and at no time has a man's integrity been needed so much by his country as at the present day. There is no failure which a man need fear so much as the failure to stand up for the things he believes to be right. After my short acquaintance with the minister I believe there is hope that he will stand up for what is right. The responsibility is so tremendous that I can but say that if he fails, the result will be nothing short of a catastrophe. I urge upon the department that they do their utmost to inform the public and to keep it informed as far as is humanly possible, so that the faith and trust of the Canadian people may be maintained. If that faith and trust should fail, I see dark days ahead.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
'Jfl. Remission service, including remuneration to members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police force (to be expended under order in council, and not to exceed $1,600) for assistance to this service, and an amount of $10,900 to reimburse the Royal Canadian Mounted Police force the amounts disbursed by them in ordinary pay and allowances to their men on loan to this service, $49,160.
Howard Charles Green: Has the minister completed his investigation into the case about which there was a furore earlier in the session, that of Joe Celona of Vancouver? That was a white-slave case in which the man was released when he had served approximately half his sentence, but in consequence of public
Supply-Justice

protests he was put back in the penitentiary. I understood at the time that the minister would have a thorough investigation made. Has that been done?


Ernest Lapointe: I said there would be an investigation. It was before the decision was reached and it did not take long to cancel the ticket-of-leave and put him back in gaol where he is and where he is going to stay. As my hon. friend says, public opinion asserted itself. The practice usually followed in cases where an application is made was followed in this instance, and the reports received indicated that the man had learned his lesson, had reformed and was going to lead a better life. In such cases we must of course rely on various authorities who give us information about the past and the present attitude of the prisoner and whether the ends of justice would be better served by releasing him. The conclusion was reached that this could be done in this case, but public opinion, as the hon. gentleman has rightly said, asserted itself and the department received many protests. After communicating with certain persons and bodies in British Columbia, I came to the conclusion at once that it was better to put the man back in gaol.
Of course, public opinion is an element when it comes to the exercise of clemency. It would not be where the question of the guilt or innocence of the man was involved. Public opinion has nothing to do with that. But when it comes to clemency, I will not say it is one of the most, important factors, but it is a factor; and when public opinion asserts itself as it did in this instance I think it is better for the ends of justice that clemency should not be exercised. The remedy was there and could be applied, and it was applied without any hesitation. May I read a letter from the John Howard Society which is of interest. This society interests itself in cases of this kind in British Columbia and I place a good deal of trust and confidence in it. This letter was sent to the hon. member for Vancouver North, but the society sent me a copy:
Dear Mr. Sinclair,
This will acknowledge your letter of July 11 with reference to the Celona case. The John Howard Society representations were made both to the hon. the Minister of Justice and to the chief of the remission service.
I quite agree with you in your reference to the remissions branch in the matter, for as you say, they are guided largely by the recommendations of local authorities. It is to the credit of this department that they acted promptly when further information was forthcoming. In our communication we informed the minister that we had absolute confidence both in himself and in the remissions branch. In our relations
(Mr. Green.]
with the department throughout the years we have found Mr. Gallagher and his staff to be very cooperative, and I personally feel that this important branch of the service is being administered both fairly and efficiently, and beyond reproach.


Howard Charles Green: Did they recommend that Celona be released or be reincarcerated?


Ernest Lapointe: They intervened before the recommendation that the ticket-of-leave should be cancelled. As I say, I have confidence in the officers of this association, who have on many occasions proved themselves worthy of that confidence.


Grote Stirling: But the letter was after the reincarceration took place?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes.


Howard Charles Green: I doubt whether the minister is correct when he states that public opinion should enter into the question of whether or not ticket-of-leave should be granted. Public opinion is too uncertain-


Grote Stirling: Too fickle.


Howard Charles Green: -to influence such an important decision.


Ernest Lapointe: It is one factor.


Howard Charles Green: In this Celona case the public happened to find out what had been done, but there may have been dozens of similar cases of white slavers throughout Canada who have been released with no opportunity for public opinion to take a stand. I think the department would have been much better advised to consult the John Howard society before they released such a man rather than getting a letter after he had been released and a great outcry had resulted. Would it not be possible to consult the John Howard society in many of these cases?
Furthermore I understand that the remissions branch did not consult the police of the city of Vancouver at all, and also that out of the seven letters they got dealing with the case one was against release. I do not know whom that was from, and I suppose the minister would not care to disclose which official recommended against release, but it seems to me it is too much of a hit-or-miss way to deal with a white slaver. This man was notorious in Vancouver, one of the worst criminals we have had there since I have been in the city. He was sentenced to twenty-two years by the trial judge; the court of appeal cut it to eleven years, and then he comes out with a smirk on his face in five and a half years. I suggest that in whiteslave cases this unwritten rule that prisoners should be released after serving half their

Supply-Justice
sentence should be disregarded. Men who commit that sort of crime should serve the full term; there should be no question of the government taking the stand that they are reformed; men of that type are not likely to reform in a penitentiary. For the protection of our womenfolk these men should be kept in the penitentiary as long as possible. I urge on the minister that he see to it that the remissions branch change the rule and keep men of that type in penitentiary for the full term of their sentence.
Is any step to be taken by the government by way of appointing a penitentiary commission? That was recommended in 1938, two years ago, and this government are supposed to be a government of speedy action, although I have never seen much trace of it myself, but they are supposed to be fast workers. This is not a very good example of speed. Why has that commission not been appointed long since?


Ernest Lapointe: As my
hon. friend says, this was recommended two years ago, and two years ago a bill based on that recommendation and that report was introduced in parliament. The bill went through this house but met an unfortunate fate in the other place, so one year must be taken off the calculation of my hon. friend. Last year a bill was passed, and the commission would have been appointed last fall; I was doing my best to find the personnel best qualified for the work. It was the intention of all hon. members when that bill was considered in this house that the best available men should be chosen for that work. Frankly, I say that the war first interfered with the selection of the men, and then the general election came later-


Howard Charles Green: That should not have made any difference.


Ernest Lapointe: It did, because one or two of the men who were being considered thought they could serve their country in another capacity. However, as my hon. friend knows, we have been very busy during this session. I can assure him that the commission will be appointed as soon as possible, but I prefer even to take a little more time and have good men than have men who would be criticized at the next session of the house as not doing the work as it should be done. I shall do my best when this house is closed. The item in the estimates on penitentiaries includes the salaries to be paid to the commissioners, and all that is left is to have the law proclaimed and the commission appointed. I must say that I had
recommended the inclusion of a larger estimate, on account of certain reforms which ought to be made at the same time, but unfortunately the money requirements for the war have played havoc with my estimates as well as with those of other departments. But the commission will be appointed and will try to put into practice most of the recommendations of the report.


Jean-François Pouliot: I congratulate the minister upon not having appointed that commission.


Howard Charles Green: This hon. gentleman was
not one of the applicants, was he?


Jean-François Pouliot: I congratulate the minister very warmly. I opposed the bill and I am glad that the commission is not appointed. The minister is saving trouble for himself and the department by not appointing the commission. I believe the minister is a good minister; I believe the gentleman in front of him is a good man, and I do not see the use of that commission. We have enough commissions. I hope the minister will comply with my request rather than with that of the hon. member for Vancouver South.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
103. Payment of gratuities to the widows or to any dependent children of judges who die while in office, $15,000.
Angus MacInnis: Could the minister tell
the committee what payments were made under this vote in each of the last two years?


Ernest Lapointe: This
provides for the payment of two months' salary to the widow of a deceased judge. This practice has been followed for many years, for as long as I can remember. This is the amount voted each year for this purpose. I do not know how much was paid last year. I suppose it is about the same every year, since providence usually acts in much the same way year by year.


Angus MacInnis: This is one of the items
I do not like, because it comes under the head of what might be called class legislation. I see no reason why the widow of a judge should receive a gratuity from this government any more than the widow of a longshoreman, of a farmer or of a letter carrier. The judges receive fairly good salaries; and if a man being paid from $7,000 to $15,000 a year cannot make provision for his widow and family, how can we expect persons receiving less than one-tenth or one-twentieth of that amount to make such provision? When our old people reach the point where they must
Supply-Justice

apply for old age pensions they have to turn their lives, as it were, inside out, and expose to the public gaze all their affairs before they can get a solitary cent. I see no reason why one class in the community should have provision made for every exigency in life, while the great mass of the people, if they get anything at all, have it handed out to them in the most niggardly fashion. I object to this item in the strongest possible terms.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Pensions and other benefits.
358. To compensate members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for injuries received in the performance of duty, $11,749.16.
Howard Charles Green: We have been passing the items so quickly that possibly my question is not in order under this vote, but perhaps I may be allowed to state it now. It is in connection with general administration. In at least two provinces, Ontario and British Columbia, provincial home guard forces are being established. Could the minister explain to the committee just how he proposes to tie in the work of the mounted police in regard to fifth column activities with the work done by these home guard forces? It seems to me that unless there is the closest cooperation between the federal government, acting through the mounted police, and the provincial governments, acting through their provincial police, many difficult problems may arise. I think the real root of the trouble is that the mounted police have not sufficient forces in Ontario, Quebec, and British Columbia to look after fifth column activities, because in those provinces there are provincial police forces, while in the other provinces the mounted police do the work ordinarily done by the provincial police. It seems to me that there should be the very closest tie-up between the federal and provincial forces, otherwise there will be all kinds of trouble.


Ernest Lapointe: As my hon. friend knows, the provincial police have exactly the same rights and powers as the mounted police acting in the various provinces.
I quite agree that there must be the most complete cooperation between the two forces, but it is important that the distinctive character of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should be maintained and that the standard and quality of its work should not be impaired in any way. We are trying to increase the force as much as possible. The commissioner is recruiting the best men available, but at this time it is fairly difficult work, because those who might be the best men either have enlisted or are engaged in some 
other occupations. However, the work is being carried on and the increase is gradually being brought about.
With regard to the home guard, which was mentioned in the house this session as being organized, that does not come at all under the mounted police or under the control of the minister in charge of the mounted police. As my hon. friend indicates, however, there ought to be the greatest cooperation possible between all these forces.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Would it not be possible to have one head for all the police in Canada? With all the provincial and city police forces I think there should be one head to the whole show. Would it be possible to have something done along that line? The minister shakes his head. Of course I appreciate 'the difficulties that exist, but it seems to me most important that what I suggest should be done. We know there are bound to be certain differences of opinion as between the provinces and the dominion. It must be realized, however, that we could not operate our militia in Canada if we had a head in each province. We realize that in that regard there must be a head for the whole dominion.
I appreciate the difficulties encountered by the mounted police, and I realize how delicately they have to treat all these matters. In my opinion this is a matter to which the government should give careful consideration, so that there may be more coordination, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Vancouver South.
May I say this with regard to home guards: These men are earnest in what they are doing, and there should be some control over them. In some places there is an effort to have them placed under the city police. Something must be done about that matter.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have listened carefully
to the suggestions made by the hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross). It must be realized, however, that Toronto, while it is a beautiful city, is a jealous one. I do not know what his worship the mayor and the aldermen of that city would say if the Minister of Justice were to take charge of the police force in Toronto. We must remember that municipalities are jealous of their privileges, and the hon. member must recognize that fact. I believe that the minister is wise in not taking the step suggested, and that he would be acting properly if he were not to interfere in municipal or provincial affairs. The minister, who is a diplomat, would not seek to encroach upon the privileges of the provinces or the municipalities.

Supply-Justice


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The hon. member for Temiscouata will remember that I admitted there were certain difficulties in the way, but I must say that the hon. member seems always to put more difficulties in the way. I am trying to do something constructive when I ask the government of Canada to take action in connection with the policing of the country. We realize that we have the dominion police force, but there is no single authority which would head a police force in Canada, and it is necessary that that authority be established. I realize that there are jealousies, and I know the mounted police encounter difficulties in this connection. But there is no reason in the world why we cannot try to do something.


Mr. CHURCH:: The war is putting such
a heavy burden on the municipalities that the time is coming when the federal power will have to make contributions to them for police protection. Ever since confederation the enforcement of the federal statutes has been the responsibility of the provinces. That responsibility has been relegated by them to the municipalities.
I raised this matter during the last session. I do not wish to speak at length upon it now, at this late hour of the present session, because I should like to see the minister's estimates passed immediately, because I am so very glad to see him back in the chamber again. I intend to raise the matter at the next session, if I am still here. Too much responsibility is placed on the shoulders of the municipal taxpayers for many federal burdens. The dominion should make a proper contribution to the larger cities to maintain a police system sufficient to enforce federal statutes.


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Ross) made what he described as a constructive suggestion, when he said that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should perform work which, in my opinion would make of them a sort of sky-scraper. He knows very well that a sky-scraper cannot be built too high. I point out to him that that is the danger of the suggestion he has made. Moreover, I have no lesson to receive from him, or from any other hon. member in the chamber, except, of course, from the chair.


Howard Charles Green: I suggest to the minister that the counteracting of fifth column activities should be exclusively in the hands of the mounted police. I point out, further, that it is quite obvious that they have not enough men to do that work in the three provinces of Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia. Would it not be possible for the dominion government to pay a certain subsidy or a certain fee to the governments of those three
provinces, so that a certain proportion of theii provincial police forces might help out with the work against the activities of the fifth column. Those officers would be under the direction of the mounted police.


Ernest Lapointe: They are doing that, with their own money, at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: But not in the same way.


Ernest Lapointe: I do not know whether it would be fair to ask this parliament to supply funds for provincial policing activities. However, as I said, cooperation must be the best possible among the two or three powers involved.
There is no doubt that there would be much to commend the suggestion regarding central authority, so far as police activities are concerned. But one of the difficulties in our constitution, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Temiscouata, is that the provinces are jealous of their powers and their autonomy. However, this is a matter which might be studied and considered by a federal-provincial conference, so that some understanding might be reached. The commissioner informs me that in Great Britain the central authority keeps a sort of inspection on various local police forces, and contributes a certain amount toward their work. I do not know whether that could be done in Canada, but certainly it cannot be done without the consent and the cooperation of the provinces, and possibly the large municipalities. It might be considered that they should come into the scheme.


Howard Charles Green: At the moment these home guard units in the provinces are not under dominion control of any kind, either by the mounted police or by the department of national defence; is that correct?


Ernest Lapointe: I thought the Department of National Defence had something to do with them; I know I have not.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have mentioned before in the house the matter of the protection of the hydro-electric plants in Ontario. This is no longer a provincial matter. Rather, I suggest it is one of national importance, and there should be no question of controversy as between the provinces and the dominion as to who must pay for the protection of those plants. They are of national importance, and therefore I suggest it is the responsibility of the dominion government to provide proper protection. If guards were provided by the dominion government, much of the controversy between the provinces and the dominion would
Supply-Post Office

be eliminated. I wonder if it is really appreciated how vitally important are the developments at Chippawa, Beauharnois and many other points throughout the country. From what I have seen I am convinced that they are not adequately protected, and I am asking the minister to do something about the matter.


Thomas Langton Church: So much federal work has been placed on the shoulders of city police forces that they have not the requisite number of men to carry out their own functions, namely, to protect life and property in the larger cities. In my opinion the dominion should enforce its own law, or as an alternative pay a subsidy to the larger cities for that enforcement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
265. Departmental administration, including amounts required to pay allowances to typists, grade one, employed cutting stencils, in accordance with regulations approved by order in council, $438,000.
Thomas Langton Church: I should like to call the attention of the new Postmaster General (Mr. Mulock) to the rotunda of terminal "A" at Bay and Front streets in Toronto. Toronto is without an adequate post office, and yet it gives this government $8,000,000 in revenue, the largest by millions of any other city. The building at the comer of Front and Bay streets should be fixed up, especially the rotunda. Our post office is a great public utility; yet this building in Toronto is not at all creditable to the government compared with other public utility buildings and their modern plants. This building, situated beside the union station, is closed at one o'clock on Saturday until Monday morning. When travellers and tourists go there to the post office to buy a postage stamp or get their mail, they find a card on the door after one o'clock on Saturday, telling them to ask directions from the nearest policeman to the post office on Adelaide street. The result is that a tourist has to try to find a strange place on a hot day. I have not seen this notice personally nor do I know about it myself, but I have received two or three letters about it and about the lack of service near the boats and the railway station at week-ends. We have a splendid staff of postal officials who work under poor conditions.
The Canadian postal system should be expanded along the lines of the British system, with additional new features and modern services. We should have a proper service in Toronto, and the cost of city delivery should be reduced to the drop rate of one cent. Surely the money taken from the wholesale 
and retail houses and the labouring men of Toronto, nearly eight million dollars, should not be devoted to maintaining a system all over the country. The minister has only been in office for a few days, but, since he is from the Toronto district himself, I urge that he look into this situation.


Hon. W. P. MULOCK (Postmaster General):: My hon. friend's first question deals with a matter which comes under the Department of Public Works. I shall be glad to give consideration to his second question.


Douglas King Hazen: What was the revenue of the Post Office Department last year?


William Pate Mulock: The revenue for 1939-40 was $44,208,369.48 gross.


Douglas King Hazen: Will the minister consider sending mail to soldiers overseas free of charge? It means a great deal to these men to be able to keep in close touch with their homes. I would extend this suggestion to include parcels as well as other mail. I know from experience how pleasant it is to receive mail and how it helps to strengthen one's morale, if I may put it in that way. I earnestly ask the minister to consider this suggestion.


Thomas Langton Church: When will the new building on Fleet street in Toronto be opened? I know that because this is a public building, it will be under the jurisdiction of the Department of Public Works, but I notice the minister of that department is here to-night and I urge both ministers not to let a day be lost in getting this building ready. When one goes into the union station at Toronto on a train, one sees trucks everywhere filled with mail. There is no place to put the mail and quite often it is spoiled during inclement weather. This is a public utility, and the public would not stand this kind of service from the Bell Telephone or a gas company or a transportation or power system. Toronto has been very long suffering, but I hope that this building will be completed with all speed, especially now that there is a war on.
Has the government also given any consideration to carrying soldiers' mail free? The government carries newspapers and that class of mail, some of them being objectionable United States newspapers, at a loss of from three to four million dollars.


William Pate Mulock: At the present time
soldiers' mail from overseas to Canada is free.
I shall have to discuss the other matter raised by the hon. member for Broadview with my colleague, the Minister of Public Works, and I shall be glad to advise my hon. friend what progress is being made. I am glad to know

Supply-Post Office
that he approves the decision of the department to construct a city delivery building at that point in Toronto.


Howard Charles Green: The minister did not answer the question asked by the hon. member for St. John-Albert (Mr. Hazen) with regard to overseas mail to soldiers.


William Pate Mulock: Letters, post-cards and
newspapers for the Canadian troops in the United Kingdom are accepted at Canadian domestic rates. Parcels for Canadian troops in the United Kingdom benefit by a reduced rate of twelve cents a pound up to eleven pounds, and a concession as regards customs charges. No duty is charged on parcels sent to Canadian troops in the United Kingdom.


Howard Charles Green: No English duty?


William Pate Mulock: No English duty. Parcels for his majesty's ships and his majesty's Canadian ships abroad, as well as parcels for members of the officers' auxiliary services, such as the women's auxiliary territorial service and the women's auxiliary air force, if addressed to units serving in the United Kingdom, are entitled to the rate of twelve cents a pound. Letters, newspapers and parcels for the Canadian troops in the West Indies and Iceland pass at the regular postage rates for civil mail to those countries. Ordinary letters not exceeding two ounces in weight posted to Canada by Canadian troops at Canadian army field post offices in the United Kingdom are accepted free of postage. Of course, if posted at a civil post office, the regular British rates to Canada would apply.


Douglas King Hazen: What would it cost the
department if letters were sent free from Canada to soldiers overseas? Also, what would it cost the department if parcels were sent to soldiers overseas without postage?


William Pate Mulock: I do not think the officials of the department are able to give that information offhand. It would be a very rough estimate. I would be glad to look into the matter and see if we can furnish the information. The result of such an arrangement would undoubtedly be a substantial increase in the number of parcels sent-which naturally from the soldiers' point of view is an excellent thing. But there would be difficulty with regard to procuring sufficient space on ships to take such parcels overseas.


Jean-François Pouliot: It depends on how
thoughtful their friends are.


William Pate Mulock: And of course the department would have to pay for ocean transportation.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: That would not
apply to letters. One would not meet the same difficulty in the free carriage of letters, as distinguished from parcels.


William Pate Mulock: Yes, we have to pay for
space for letters, also.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: But the number
of additional letters which would go to soldiers overseas would not take up very much more space. It might incline people over here to write letters if it were not necessary to stamp them.


William Pate Mulock: As I informed the hon.
member for St. John-Albert, we can take the suggestion under consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
269. Air and land mail services, $10,863,876.
Joseph Henry Harris: On this particular
item, the minister and the committee will note that there is the substantial increase of $1,859,827, all of which, as will be gathered from the details of the services, has to do with the mail service by air, inasmuch as the budget for the year 1940-41 contains an appropriation of $4,460,651, whereas last year the requirement was $2,250,835.
On examination of this substantial vote, we find that Trans-Canada Air Lines are receiving the major portion of their revenue from the Post Office Department.
I believe all Canadians are proud of the wonderful work which Trans-Canada Air Lines are doing on behalf of the dominion in the matter of air services. In the past two or three years, during the initial stage, and coping with a very great problem, they have certainly put Canada on the map as far as air service is concerned, and it is a matter of congratulation that such marked success has been attained in connection with this combined air service.
The combination to which I refer is that of the passenger traffic-and it is this which grips the imagination of the public-with the mail service, the service which is given in the carriage of mail by air. For that service, $2,250,000 was voted by this house last year, as well as the deficit which the air lines showed. We anticipate, if we are sensible about the matter, that on a new venture such as Trans-Canada Air Lines there will be deficits for a few years. But it is disquieting to find that the rate which is paid by the Post Office Department for the carriage of air mail is far in excess of anything which even the department itself would admit should obtain. In proof of that statement I quote the observation of the officer in charge of air mail services that he did not know whether
Supply-Post Office

the rate should be 35 cents or 50 cents per flight mile, although at the same time he knew that the contract entered into between the Post Office Department and Trans-Canada Air Lines-I speak subject to correction-calls for a rate of 60 cents. On further crossexamination he told one of the members of the standing committee which investigated this matter that the guess of the hon. member might be as accurate as the guess of the post office official charged with the responsibility of carrying out the terms and conditions of the contract to which I have reference.
The point I want to make to the new Postmaster General is this. There is in the department for which he is responsible a certain contract, in force until December 31 of this year, between the department and Trans-Canada Air Lines to pay for the carriage of mails at the rate of 60 cents a mile. That contract, of course, he must honour. But I am informed that the average rate in the United States, where traffic is more dense, the mail more voluminous, and the mail cariying planes, perhaps, not quite so de luxe, is 194 cents, say 20 cents for convenience in figuring. We are paying three times that rate. I am quite willing that a somewhat higher rate shall apply in the sparsely settled areas of Canada. But a charge three times as great, representing a figure which in the committee would not be recognized by the officials, is one which should be revised when the present contract expires. I ask the serious attention of the Postmaster General to this matter, for several reasons.
First, we know that 69-5 per cent of all the revenues of Trans-Canada Air Lines should not come out of the till of the Post Office Department. When Trans-Canada Air Lines makes its report at the end of the calendar year and in that report says that it has earned its depreciation charges, its interest, and is going to show a small profit, that may be a statement of fact taken from the record, but how was the money earned? It was earned because it made a favourable contract with another department of the government, namely the Post Office Department.
I have remarked in this chamber within the past fortnight that we have been unfortunate in not having had a Postmaster General to look solely after the interests of the department. The ministers who were temporarily in charge have been running other departments; they have been very busy, and they are only human. I am glad that we now have a Postmaster General to supervise and operate the department, and I ask him to see to it that no improvident contract such as the one I have mentioned shall be entered

into by his department when the present contract expires. He has asked for an appropriation of $4,460,651 for the air mail service, whereas the entire costs of operating that service last year were only $2,250,835.
He knows, I know, and the Minister of Transport knows that there will be a great expansion in the schedules, more service across Canada. But let us be frank and fair with the Canadian people and tell them that Trans-Canada Air Lines, while giving a good service, does have a deficit. But I say to the government, "Do not dip into the sacred till of the Post Office Department and take out $4,450,000 to subsidize Trans-Canada Air Lines." That is what is being done. The government must not do this and then, when the balance sheet comes out, report that there is an operating profit after depreciation and interest charges have been paid. The report states: The company's operating budget for 1940, based on the assumption that the second trans-Canada schedule will be operated in the spring and that its services will be extended to Windsor- and I congratulate the government in this connection; I noticed the schedule in the press to-day-and to New York and Buffalo during the summer, contemplates that there will be a profit for the year after depreciation and interest. Let us state the real facts. They should read something like this: The company's operating budget for 1940, based on the assumption that this parliament will vote $4,450,000 out of the post office till, almost 10 per cent of the total $40,000,000 which comes to the Postmaster General, contemplates that there will be a profit for the year after depreciation and interest.
I offer these observations for whatever benefit they may be to the minister. May I ask him one or two questions. Does the contract at 60 cents expire December 31, 1940? Second, what portion of this vote asked for now will be for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1941? Could the minister give us some idea of the expansion of air mail services and the revenue which he is receiving from the extra postage received, putting that into some readable equation alongside the vote now asked for?


William Pate Mulock: 
Joseph Henry Harris: Can the minister give the contract prices?


William Pate Mulock: For the series that expired on February 29. the amount of the increase is $121,343.'


Joseph Henry Harris: I asked the contract price. What is the rate per mile?


William Pate Mulock: Those are on the so-called bush services. The rates vary according to the service.	For that reason they were
referred to the board of transport commissioners for an opinion as to the fairness of the present rates.


Joseph Henry Harris: Have any contracts been renewed since February?


William Pate Mulock: No, they have not been renewed.


Joseph Henry Harris: What will the policy be with regard to contracts that will be entered into probably in September, October and November for the calendar year 1941? Will they also be referred to the board of transport commissioners?


William Pate Mulock: I should like to be in this department as minister a little longer before expressing an opinion on that.


Joseph Henry Harris: I hope, when the minister comes to make these contracts, he will not only take the advice of the transport commission but also the advice of his own department, and be abundantly fair with the
Supply-Post Office

Canadian people, because they do not contemplate a profit for the year after depreciation and interest, and when we have to pass this statement we go through our vocabulary trying to find words adequate to describe such an absurd suggestion as the one we read in the report. We dare not call it blatant nonsense because we have respect for the signature it carries, namely that of Mr. Hungerford, president of the road. At the same time it is not fair to ask for this very large sum of money, which is not in proportion to the sendee being given. One of the reasons for it is of course, that the planes which carry the mail also carry the passengers, and it probably takes a $140,000 plane to carry the passengers, whereas the same amount of mail could be carried in a plane costing $35,000 or $40,000. That our mail is getting a de luxe ride in a $140,000 plane is no reason for paying two or three times as high a rate. I hope the minister will take these observations into consideration and not expect us to accept a statement like this. In the early years of the establishment in Canada of this great trans-Canada air system we should not be fooled by a report that says it is earning interest and depreciation when we know the money is merely being taken out of one pocket and put into another. How much is being put into the pocket of the post office?


William Pate Mulock: In reply to the hon.
member's question as to volume, the figures on Hansard last year, to which he no doubt refers, were these. The week ended April 12, 1939, showed a poundage of 935 which in 1940 increased to 1,908. For the week ended April 19, 1939, the poundage was 954, and for the equivalent week this year it was 1,841. There are large increases all through. For instance, for July a year ago the total gross weight carried on all trips amounted to 49,580 pounds. This year the hon. member will be glad to know that it has increased to 78,679 pounds, and that last year the air mail postage amounted to $2,815,018. Therefore the department is receiving an increased amount of revenue from the air mail service all the time. It is anticipated that the new extensions will provide a substantial revenue.
In regard to the rate, I am glad to know the hon. member is interested in that, because I have already brought that matter to the attention of my colleague the Minister of Transport. Present indications are that we shall be able to obtain a substantial reduction in the rate. I should not like at this time [Mr. J. H. Harris. 1
to make any statement as to the figure, but it is hoped that it will be 50 cents or less instead of the present 60 cents.


Joseph Henry Harris: The minister says that the revenue from air mail postage was $2,815,018, but it must be remembered that a substantial part of that revenue is absorbed in gathering that mail, sorting it on land, subsequent transporting of it to the plane, then breaking it up into its different parcels at the points where it is diverted in one direction or another, further carriage of the same mail overland, and final distribution, so that the actual amount of service rendered by Trans-Canada. Air Lines would not approach $2,815,018.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The only hon. gentleman
round here who is under a misconception is, I think, the hon. member for Danforth. After listening to one of his speeches I wonder why we bring officers of Trans-Canada Air Lines from Montreal, keep them here for days and have them analyse the statements of the system, and why we bring post office officials here and have them show the position of the Post Office Department, only to hear in this committee a statement such as that made to-night, which is not in any way borne out by the facts.


Joseph Henry Harris: The minister
might enlarge on it now he is speaking.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes, I intend to. The facts are
that we have been starting a new air service. We had no passenger business; we had no mail business; we had no express business; we had no services. We had to train pilots; we had to establish ground crews; we had to set up overhaul shops and to place the service in operation. We obtained the best information we could from people who are experts in operation of air transport, and we were advised by them that the cost of operation chargeable to the mail service, which could reasonably be expected in the first or second year of operation was 60 cents a mile. The hon. member says that the average rate in the United States is between 19 and 20 cents. I should be very much surprised if that is the case; my information is that it is about 33 cents, although I may be wrong in that, I have not seen the recent average. However, I can say that when the air services were established in the United States, the standard rate was $2 a mile, and it was not until 1932, when the carriage of the mails was taken over by the army for a short and disastrous period, that the rate of $2 a mile was subject to drastic revision. We did start out on

Supply-Post Office
contract which called for an initial rate of 60 cents a mile. The contract provided that on the experience of a full year of operation the rate would be revised in the light of that experience. In other words, the cost of operation including interest on the investment and depreciation was to be set up as an operating cost, against which was to be credited the express and passenger revenue, and after those were deducted, the remainder was to be charged against the mail, and a new rate established based on that result.
We wrere not able to have a full year of operation in 1939 because the passenger service did not start until April of that year. As a result, parliament extended the initial period until 1941, maintaining the same rate of 60 cents. Now we have our full experience and are beginning to reap the benefits of second, third and fourth services over the same routes. Naturally the ground services cost but little more for four or five services daily than for one service, and many of the other costs are constant. The radio-telephone services; the passenger department and certain other fixed charges do not increase materially as the number of services increases. The result is that we shall be able to reduce materially the price to the post office for 1941 under the automatic feature of the contract. That is definitely assured at this time.
As to the revenue, I think we all realize that in starting a new service there will be some expense. The Post Office Department were establishing an air mail service which, looking at the experience in other countries and looking to the future of this dominion, they had every reason to believe would become profitable to that department as it was built up. A chart was set up which indicated that the service could be expected to be profitable to the post office in about the fourth or fifth year, as I recall the original negotiations. As a matter of fact, I am satisfied that the Post Office Department should about break even on the service this year and should make a substantial profit next year. Therefore my hon. friend's claim about one department of government robbing another is, in my opinion, unwarranted.


Joseph Henry Harris: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I did not say anything about one department robbing another.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend said something about our department putting our hands into the till of the Post Office Department, and a man does not usually put his hand into somebody else's till unless he wishes to take something that does not belong to him.


Joseph Henry Harris: I object to the word "rob". They put their hands into the till under a contract.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Post Office Department believed that in establishing an air mail service in Canada they were establishing something which was needed in this country and which, in time, would be profitable to the department and beneficial to Canadian business. Trans-Canada Air Lines believed that in establishing the service on this basis they were setting up a service that would handle his majesty's mail in a reliable manner and would furnish a passenger and express service which would be of benefit in speeding up the business activities of the Canadian people. So far as I am aware, neither department has been disappointed up to the present time. I think if one asked the responsible officers of either department who were concerned with making the original contract they would say that the results at this time, for both the Post Office Department and the air lines, far exceed any operating results that were anticipated at the time this service was put in operation.


Joseph Henry Harris: I have just one further observation to make and I shall have finished. Evidently the Minister of Munitions and Supply was not in the committee when I made my opening remarks; otherwise he would not have found it necessary to say what lie has said for the last ten minutes, which was merely a repetition of what I said in congratulating the department. So far as that portion of his remarks addressed to the member for Danforth is concerned, I shall simply ignore them and let it go at that. If the minister wants to carry the matter any further, we are here and we shall be very glad to do so.
I think it is the right and duty of every hon. member to be fair with the Canadian people. Let us tell them that we are establishing a great service, and that it is costing us something. Let us not try to hoodwink them by saying it is going to be carried on at a profit. So far as the agreement with the Post Office Department is concerned, in referring to this 60 cent rate the official of the department was asked what the rate should be. His reply was:
Anything from 35 to 50 cents, but it is definitely less than 60 cents. The Trans-Canada bill makes it obligatory on the Trans-Canada Air Lines to supply equipment which will meet the requirements not only of mail conveyance but also passenger and express traffic which leads up to the determination of the rate.
That is just what I was saying. We know that our mail is getting a de luxe ride. We
Supply-Public Works

know that we have not enough traffic in Canada at this time to put on special aeroplanes to carry mail only. But let us be frank with the Canadian people. Let us tell them exactly where we are getting the money. Last year 69-5 per cent of the money necessary to balance the budget of Trans-Canada Air Lines came from this one source. The other alternative would be to make a contract which, according to the evidence given by the official of the department, would be fairer to the Post Office Department than the contract at present in force. If there is a deficit, let us face it and pay it as we pay the deficit of the Canadian National Railways.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I have been greatly impressed, in discussing this service, with the efficiency displayed by the officials of this department. I feel that the minister is most fortunate in having within his department men who have made such a careful study of the development of similar services in other countries, as I believe we are very fortunate in having such a well developed service here. Would the minister tell us what increase would be required in the volume of mail carried before the service would pay its own way?


William Pate Mulock: During the month of July, 1939, the average was about 1,599 pounds a day. This year it is about 2,538 pounds a day. At the present rate, that is on the basis of the 60 cent rate, we estimate that it would take about 4,700 pounds a day to break even on operating expenses.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
28.1. Departmental administration, $190,415.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I notice that the department is getting into the habit of employing outside architects to a considerable extent. Perhaps that is a commendable practice; I do not know, but I should like to compliment several of these architects on their splendid work. For instance, the architect for the new supreme court building, E. Cormier, Montreal, deserves a great deal of credit for the handsome design of that building. The same remarks apply to the architects for the magnificent, unique new building in London, Ontario, who, I believe, were Messrs. Watt and Blackwell. Then there is Craig and Madill, who were architects for the beautiful new post office in West Toronto. In all these instances I think the department deserves credit for the fine structures which have been put up. On the other hand, I always believe in giving a great deal of credit to our own 
architects and engineers in the department. In going outside the department I hope there is no reflection on the men in the department here at Ottawa. They are equal to the best.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief Architect's branch.
283. Ottawa;-Maintenance and operation of dominion public buildings and grounds, including rents, repairs, furniture, heating, et cetera, $2,683,989.
Mr. PURDY:: I should like to draw to the attention of the minister an item which appeared a few days ago in the Ottawa Journal, pointing out that tenders had been closed on August 1 in connection with the installation of an oil heating system for the Daly building. At that time I had a question on the order paper asking the government if, so far as possible, Canadian fuel would be used for all public buildings in Canada. The answer from the Department of Public Works was, yes, in both instances.
It seems to me there is a certain amount of inconsistency. On the one hand we are told by the newspaper that the government is about to instal an oil-burning plant in the Daly building, to replace a coal-burning plant. On the other hand, I am told that in order to conserve exchange, in every instance so far as possible the government will insist upon using fuel produced in Canada. I admit that a certain amount of oil is produced in Canada, but certainly not to the extent of making it exclusively a Canadian fuel. Is the newspaper report with regard to the installation of an oil-burning system in the Daly building correct?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The information of the hon. member is quite correct. This is an exceptional case. As a rule, as far as possible we use Canadian coal, but in certain instances we use oil. In regard particularly to the Daly building, I may point out that during past years complaints have been made to the department by the management of the Chateau Laurier, and it has been pointed out that at times the situation was intolerable. For a number of years I have lived in that hotel. My room happens to be on the east side, and not far removed from the Daly building. At certain times when fresh coal was added to the fires the situation was quite intolerable. I have had to close the windows. The curtains on the windows of rooms on the east side of the Chateau Laurier have to be changed several times a week, if they want to keep them clean. The sills of the windows are always covered with coal dust. I submit that in those circumstances we might consider this case exceptional.

Supply-Public Works
However, this does not affect the general policy of the government, namely that of using as far as possible, Canadian coal for heating government buildings.


Gordon Timlin Purdy: I am sorry the minister has
suffered inconvenience from the dirty coal dust. At the same time I have at heart the interests of my constituents in Nova Scotia. By a recent ruling of the foreign exchange control board, in order to conserve exchange my constituents have been refused the privilege of selling their lumber in the United States market unless it is paid for in official dollars, or, in other words, dollars purchased from the foreign exchange control board. As a result, the operators in my constituency have to accept prices $2 or $3 per thousand less than they could have obtained if they had sold in the unofficial market. In the marketing of lumber we have to start at the top and work down. In that respect we are not in the same situation as the manufacturer who starts at the bottom and works up. We have to take the prices we can get for our articles, and work down. The regulation of the foreign exchange control board which stipulates that we cannot ship our produce to the United States market unless it is paid for in so-called official dollars means that the workers in our lumber woods must work for a lower wage than otherwise they would receive. In other words, in order to conserve exchange with which to buy oil to heat the Daly building, and other public buildings. my workers who are employed in a primary industry are called upon to work at a lower rate of wage. I do not think, even at the price of inconveniencing the minister and the patrons of the Chateau Laurier, that should be permitted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief Architect's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements of public buildings.
Maritime provinces generally.
287. Dominion public buildings, improvements and repairs, $50,000.
Douglas King Hazen: Is the $50,000 voted last
year to make improvements and repairs to dominion public buildings in the maritime provinces all expended?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Practically all expended.


Douglas King Hazen: On what buildings is this
vote of $50,000 to be expended, in the present year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It covers improvements
and repairs to any public buildings in the maritime provinces. Judging from the past, in all probability the whole amount will be expended.


Douglas King Hazen: Does the minister know
what buildings require repairs at the present
time?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I cannot tell the hon.
member exactly. All public buildings require a certain amount of repair. In some instances, a coat of paint may be required, and in others, doors may have to be changed, and all that kind of thing. The vote covers only the annual repairs to buildings, repairs which may become necessary during the course of the year. It does not cover additions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief Architect's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements of public buildings.
Generally.
296. Experimental farms and science laboratories-replacements, repairs and improvements to buildings, $100,000.
Howard Charles Green: Does this vote cover improvements to buildings at the central experimental farm in Ottawa? Out there I believe one building connected with the division of botany was being extended, and it would appear as though the extensions have been stopped. The building has been left half improved. It does not seem sensible to leave a building in that condition.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This vote is to cover
buildings at the experimental farms.


Howard Charles Green: This building is at the experimental farm in Ottawa.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This refers to all buildings,
not only in Ottawa.


Howard Charles Green: The building to which I
refer is at the experimental farm here in Ottawa; it houses the division of botany, and the extension is only half finished.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It is not covered by this vote.


Howard Charles Green: What department would that come under?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Agriculture.


George Hugh Castleden: Since the Department of Agriculture is doing away with five or six of these experimental farms, will this $100,000 be required?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is the experimental
stations that they are doing away with.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Public Works
[Stage Direction]
Chief Architect's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements of public buildings.
Generally.
298. Public buildings generally - repairs, alterations, fittings and improvements, $200,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: What does this item cover?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It covers all repairs, alterations, fittings and improvements which may become necessary during the course of the year. This is a general item which is used to cover unforeseen expenditures during the year.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: This is not included with the other votes for Quebec, Nova Scotia and so on?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This covers the whole
dominion and is used to supplement the particular votes for the provinces. It very often happens that the amount set aside by the officers of the department to take care of public buildings in a province is not sufficient, so we are able to take a few hundred or a thousand dollars from this vote.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Was the amount voted last year used?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Douglas King Hazen: How was the money distributed among the provinces last year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Of that $200,000, we spent a little over $12,000 in the maritime provinces.


Douglas King Hazen: There are three maritime provinces; how much did each receive?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I regret that the amount has not been divided.


Douglas King Hazen: Where can that information be obtained?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I can give that information to my hon. friend to-morrow. The figures for the provinces are:
Maritime provinces	 $12,000
Quebec	 75,000
Ontario	 24,000
Ottawa	 63,000
Manitoba	 1,100
Saskatchewan	 6,200
British Columbia	 11,000


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief Engineer's branch.
Dredging.
SOS. Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, $52,424.
George Hugh Castleden: Would this include dredging at Churchill?
Mr. Crerar.]


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That work is under the national harbours board. There would be no money from this vote spent at Churchill.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief Engineer's branch.
Maintenance and operation of graving docks, locks and dams, etc.
SO7. Champlain graving dock, $53,985.
Howard Charles Green: Are these graving docks owned by the dominion and operated by private companies, or what is the arrangement?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: They are owned and operated by the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief Engineer's branch.
Maintenance and operation of roads and bridges.
SIS. New Westminster bridge, $45,300.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain this item?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This covers the operation of the New Westminster bridge which was transferred to the dominion government by the government of British Columbia. My hon. friend will remember that when the new bridge was built, the question of interference with navigation was brought up and the provincial government undertook to avoid any such interference. At the time it was thought it would be necessary to do away with the old bridge, but we have been advised that we might wait before taking such drastic action. It was contended that in reality the piers of the new bridge would not, as was at first believed, interfere with navigation. To make sure that the bridge would be removed when navigation would necessitate removal, it was agreed that the bridge should be transferred to the federal authority; and after a certain period of time, if it was established that it creates no interference with navigation, it would be returned to the provincial government. Complete accounts will be kept of the revenues which the department will derive from the operation of this bridge.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph branch.
Telegraph and telephone services-operation and maintenance.
SS2. Telegraph and telephone services generally, $6,000.
George Hugh Castleden: May I have an explanation of this item?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This amount of $6,000 is required to cover unavoidable expenditures in

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
connection with dominion telegraph and telephone services during 1940-41. I can give details of the amounts:
Maintenance Pelee Island (Ont.)
telephone cable	 $2,000
Maintenance Timiskaming district
(Quebec) telephone line	 2,000
Maintenance Killarney telephone
line and Cockburn island cable..	1,500
Maintenance Maniwaki telephone line (Quebec)	 500
Total	 $6,000


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General.
338. Miscellaneous works not otherwise provided for, not more than $3,000 to be expended upon any one work, $50,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: What does this item cover?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is a general item to provide for unforeseen expenditures, covering the whole of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
Chief Engineer's branch.
Construction, repairs and improvements of harbours and rivers.
New Brunswick.
S),8. To close out contracts, $85,000.
Douglas King Hazen: In 1939-40 the sum of $193,000 was voted to New Brunswick for the purpose of closing out contracts. I should like to know from the minister the names of the contractors, to whom this amount of money was paid, how much money each contractor received, and where the work was done.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The amount of $193,000 voted last year was not to close out contracts. It was voted to execute works, which, in fact, have been executed. I am sorry that the officers of the department have not with them at the moment particulars of the number of contracts which were executed last year and the amount paid to each contractor. If my hon. friend desires to have the information, it can be given to him. Unfortunately I cannot supply it to him to-night, but it can be very easily obtained.


Douglas King Hazen: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
Chief Engineer's branch-Telegraph branch.
Telegraph and telephone services.
Ontario.
853. To close out contract, $6,200.
George Hugh Castleden: This item seems to be a duplication of item 350, which is "Ontarioto close out contracts, $275,000." The present item is $6,200.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No; item 353 on page 40 of the estimates relates to the telegraph branch; item 350 on page 39 has reference to harbours and rivers.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Just before the estimates of this department are finished, I would point out to the minister that, while there has been a reduction in the total estimates of approximately $17,000,000, there has been a reduction of only $905 in departmental administration. I suppose that as soon as all the contracts are closed out, there will be a big decrease in departmental administration costs.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Possibly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Library of parliament.
133. General administration, $78,145.
George Hugh Castleden: There are two
librarians. Are they both in office?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a vacancy in one position at the present time.


George Hugh Castleden: Is it expected that $12,000 will be paid just the same?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The position will be filled in due course. I cannot say when.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Marine service.
1/33. Life saving service, including rewards for saving life, $47,790.
Douglas King Hazen: At what points is the life saving service provided?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The stations are at:
Banfield, British Columbia; Clayoquot, British Columbia; Bayview, Nova Scotia; Little Wood island, New Brunswick; Cheticamp, Nova Scotia; Point Pelee, Ontario; Blanche, Nova Scotia; Canso, Nova Scotia; Devils Island, Nova Scotia; Duncan Cove, Nova Scotia; Herring Cove, Nova Scotia; Main-A-Dieu, Nova Scotia.


Douglas King Hazen: Does the department maintain life saving boats there?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes. We have boats at all these places.


Douglas King Hazen: At each of the places the minister mentioned?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We have boats at: Ban-field, British Columbia; Clayoquot, British

Supply-Transport-Railway Service
Columbia; Bay View, Nova Scotia; Little Wood island, New Brunswick; Cheticamp, Nova Scotia; Point Pelee, Ontario.


Douglas King Hazen: What is the nature of the service provided in the other places mentioned?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am informed that the only boats that have been used at the other stations are rowboats and they have been laid up this season.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service.
444. Repairs and expenses in connection with the operation and maintenance of official railway cars under the jurisdiction of the department, $39,414.69.
Angus MacInnis: Does this item relate to the maintenance and operation of ministers' private cars?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, and the governor-general's also.


Angus MacInnis: At this time when there is so much urge for economy, do the committee not think that this would be a good place to begin to economize? Ministers could very well ride in the ordinary compartments and berths in the standard railway cars.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am inclined to agree in a general way with the observation made by my hon. friend, but in certain instances I think it is useful and advantageous to the public service that the minister be given the benefit of a private car, because on a private car he can take members of his staff and carry on his work. I think there is no abuse in the use of private cars by the ministers. They are' not used for pleasure purposes; I need not say that, it must be obvious; they are used when ministers are travelling in the public interest.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service.
442. Hudson Bay railway-construction and improvements-capital, $15,000.
Charles Edward Johnston: Is any new construction taking place on the Hudson Bay railway at the present time?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This vote is for a few small capital expenditures. For example, there is ditching, $10,000; bridges and culverts, $2,300, and engineering and supervision, $600.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railway service.
446. Amount required to provide for payment from time to time during the fiscal year 1940-41 of the difference (estimated by the Board of

Transport Commissioners for Canada and certified by the said board to the Minister of Transport, as and when required by the said minister) occurring on account of the application of the Maritime Freight Rates Act, between the tariff tolls and the normal tolls (referred to in section 9 of the said act) on all traffic moved during the calendar year 1940, under the tariffs approved by the following companies: Canada & Gulf Terminal railway, Canadian Pacific railway, including: Fredericton & Grand Lake Coal & Railway Company, New Brunswick Coal and Railway Company, Cumberland Railway & Coal Company, Dominion Atlantic railway, Maritime Coal, Railway & Power Company, Sydney and Louisburg railway, Temis-couata Railway Company, $800,000.
Clarence Gillis: What is required of railways other than the national system to qualify for grants under the Maritime Freight Rates Act? What services must be maintained? I am interested in the Sydney and Louisburg railway.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This item is to make up the difference between the ordinary freight rates and the special rates provided by the statute, which are 20 per cent lower.


Clarence Gillis: But they must maintain certain services in order to qualify?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No; it is on the ordinary
traffic that moves. No obligation is imposed on the railways as to the service to be given.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
465. River St. Lawrence ship channel-to provide for extension and improvement of control weirs-capital (revote), $61,500.
Douglas King Hazen: What are these control weirs, and where are they situated on the river?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The construction of these
weirs was considered a long time ago by a commission appointed by the government to consider the advisability of creating certain obstacles in the flow of the St. Lawrence river with a view to raising the level of the river between lake St. Peter and Montreal. These weirs have been constructed between islands at the head of lake St. Peter. Several channels between these islands have been blocked by these weirs with a view to retarding the flow of the St. Lawrence, in order to raise the level of the river. It has been established that the results are beneficial; the water level has been raised a few inches between lake St. Peter and Montreal harbour.
The project considered several years ago contemplated also the building of smaller weirs in the vicinity of Montreal, blocking the channels existing between certain islands in the vicinity of Boucherville, below Montreal, and the north shore of the St. Lawrence,

Supply-Transport-Railways
but up to the present time the only structures that exist are those between these islands at the head of lake St. Peter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Special deficits Canadian National Railway Company.
459. Amount required to provide for the payment during the fiscal year 1940-41 to the Canadian National Railway Company (hereinafter called the national company) upon applications approved by the Minister of Transport, made from time to time by the national company, to the Minister of Finance and to be applied by the national company in payment of the deficit (certified by the auditors of the national company) arising in the calendar year 1940, including such supplementary contribution to the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island railways employees' provident fund as may be necessary to provide for payment in full of monthly allowances under the provisions of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railways Employees' Provident Fund Act, notwithstanding the limitation contained in section four of the said Act, and including such supplementary contribution to the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada superannuation and provident fund as may be necessary to enable payment to be made of monthly allowances under the rules and regulations of the fund, notwithstanding the limitation contained in section thirteen of chapter sixty-five of the statutes of Canada, 1874, but not including amounts charged to proprietor's equity of the national railway system as defined in chapter twenty-two of the statutes of Canada, 1937: Canadian National railways, exclusive of eastern lines, $12,975,000; eastern lines, $2,025,000. Total. $15,000,000.
Joseph Henry Harris: Perhaps the
minister would make a statement in view of the fact that he now has before him the experience of the last six months' operations.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This vote is to meet the expected or estimated deficit of the Canadian National Railways during the present year. It is true that the returns for the few months that have elapsed might to a certain extent justify a plea for a reduction of this amount, because one might say that the position of the Canadian National Railways is a good deal better than it was during last year. This estimate was made by the officers of the department-[DOT]


Joseph Henry Harris: When?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The final estimate I am told was prepared in February last. They take into consideration the results of the previous year, the prospects for the present year and the situation they may expect to face. These estimates are based on monthly returns, which I am reminded are revised each month by the officers and accountants of the company. After careful consideration
it was thought that this amount would be required to cover the deficit for the present fiscal year.
It may be that the returns are more encouraging than was expected when the calculation was made, but of course there is the possibility that the succeeding months may not be as good as was expected. For example, according to what I am told, the returns from the movement of grain will not be up to the estimate which was made last February. I believe the officers and management are right in taking the stand that while they may have been more fortunate than they expected in the first part of the year, they can hardly be sure that their position will be as happy during the remainder of the year. In any event they want to be certain that they will have enough money to meet their deficit. I quite understand what is in the mind of my hon. friend. He would like the Canadian National to present a better picture by saying they will not require as much money to meet their deficit this year as would be indicated in the estimates, but the management wants to be safe and to provide the amount that it believes will be required. Under the circumstances I think the management should be trusted; and in any event, if the money is not required, it will not be spent, because it is voted for the express purpose of meeting the deficit.


Joseph Henry Harris: I appreciate
that the minister is new to the department, and I do not want to labour the point at length because this matter has been gone over on several occasions, particularly in connection with the 815,104.000 refinancing measure which was guided through the house so carefully and judiciously by the Minister of Transport. We now come to this item of $15,000,000 to meet the deficit. As the minister very properly observes, the estimate was arrived at in February of this year, and since February we have had a very happy experience. The management in making up their budget estimated that there would be an increase in revenue of 22 per cent over last year. The actual experience up to the end of June, however, showed an increase of 29 per cent, or a difference of 7 per cent. As hon. members will notice at once, 7 per cent of a revenue of $203,000,000 is about $14,000,000. Therefore the railways are in this happy position, that they have this extra revenue in the treasury and, in addition, we are voting this $15,000,000 in order that they may be safe. It is quite true that the original estimate, made last fall, was $25,000,000. In December the management reduced it to
25S4
Supply-Transport-Railways

$20,000,000; then in his wisdom the Minister of Transport decided that $15,000,000 would be ample. Since then, however, there has been an extra increase of 7 per cent in the revenue.
No doubt the question occurred to many members of the committee, what about the expenditure? And we had the statement by the' president of the company that when the revenue got beyond the figure of $250,000,000, then out of every additional $2,000,000 of revenue, $1,000,000 would be applied to the deficit. I just want to point out to hon. members that we are being asked to vote $15,000,000 that will not be used. The experience of the last six months amply illustrates that; it is not going to be used. Nevertheless we sit here and vote it. It is a very happy situation, although sad to realize that this extra traffic is a result of our war effort. So far as wheat is concerned, the Minister of Mines and Resources and the other wheat experts know there will be a movement of 100,000,000 bushels before veiy long, and with the prospects of the movement of a great deal of war material I feel sure that the increase of 29 per cent in the revenue will be maintained for the remainder of the year.
It ran through my mind, in considering this item, how greatly it would have reestablished confidence in the Canadian National Railways and in the Department of Transport if we had just been sensible enough about this amount of $15,000,000, which was requested many months ago, to say, "Well, we are not going to use all that money. When this estimate is brought down we who occupy the treasury benches will reduce that amount." I do not suggest that it should be wiped out entirely, but it should have been reduced by a reasonable amount. I believe that would have tended to increase confidence in this great publicly-owned enterprise. We should not leave the impression in the minds of a great many people that because this enterprise is owned by the government, it can make estimates six, eight or nine months in advance and then come here and get any amount of money it requires. On account of circumstances we are sitting here on this sixth day of August. We have had seven months of experience since January, and we know that because of war conditions this company has a substantial revenue in its treasury. Nevertheless, because it asked for this money last February or March, this item must go through; otherwise the solidarity of the cabinet would be defeated. The government have the power to force this item through, and it is going

through; but how much better it would have been if they had been a little fairer with the people who are anxious to support this enterprise, and had reduced this estimate by five or ten million dollars, when they know the whole amount is not going to be required.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
Deficits.
National harbours board.
$61. To provide for payment to national harbours board, of the amount hereinafter set forth, to be applied in payment of the deficits (after payment of interest due the public but exclusive of interest on dominion Government advances and depreciation on capital structures) arising in the calendar year 1940, in the operation of the Churchill harbour, $96,867.
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: I notice that this
appropriation is cut almost in half, and of course I realize that it is necessary to effect economies wherever possible. I have before me a copy of Canadian Finance for July 17, in which nearly half a page is devoted to a discussion of the Hudson Bay route in war time. In reply to a question I asked on June 14, the Minister of Transport mentioned that the British government had knowledge of the Churchill route, but this article wonders whether the Canadian government is doing as much as it might to encourage the more extensive use of this route. Would the minister care to make any comment along this line?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: My hon. friend will readily appreciate that I am not in a position to make an extensive comment on the situation because, as he knows, I am new to this department. I have not had time even to read the book dealing with these estimates, but I may assure my hon. friend that with my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Resources, sitting at my right, it will be difficult to cease interesting ourselves in the port of Churchill.
Mr, CRERAR: I might say just one word in reply to the hon. member for Mackenzie. If the war had not broken out at the beginning of September, I am confident that this year the port of Churchill would have had the largest business in its history. But the outbreak of war brought control of shipping by the British shipping ministry; and the need to convoy vessels in considerable groups in order to effect economies and safety has had the effect of largely destroying, for the time being, the use of Churchill as a shipping port. How long that may last I cannot say, but certainly this year from all indications Churchill would have had a very large business compared with previous

Supply-Trade and Commerce
years had it not been for the unfortunate outbreak of the war. I have no doubt whatever that in future years Churchill will be part of a great trade route of this dominion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
National Harbours Board.
-463. Advances to national harbours board, subject to the provisions of section 29 of the National Harbours Board Act, to meet expenditures during the calendar year 1940 on any or all of the following accounts:
Reconstruction and capital expenditures
[Stage Direction]
Montreal	$242,800
Vancouver	 150,000
[Stage Direction]
Less amount to be expended from replacement funds	 59,612
Howard Charles Green: What is the purpose of the expenditure of $150,000 in Vancouver?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The item covers an expenditure of $50,000 for the construction of a wharf at the foot of Dunlevy avenue, and $100,000 for renewal space and new storage space at Columbia elevators.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Marine service.
J/81. Miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping-further amount required, $12,000.
Howard Charles Green: What is the purpose of this vote?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is to provide for the removal of the schooner Laurentian which was sunk in the St. Lawrence river near Three Rivers, as the result of a collision. The sinking of that ship has created an obstacle to navigation. After notice was served upon the proprietor of the vessel to remove the wreck he replied that he could not do the work because he was too poor. Since the schooner is a menace to navigation, the government has undertaken to remove the vessel from the river. If in the future there is any possibility of making a collection from the owner, we have reserved our right so to do.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service.
480. Airways and airports-construction and improvements, including lighting and radio facilities-capital-further amount required (revote $60,000), $100,000.
Howard Charles Green: Would the minister explain the vote of $100,000?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I believe that item comes in the Department of Munitions and Supply. There were two items of $30,000, which were revotes for contracts to be completed in the previous fiscal year, but not finished in time for final payment to be made. The $40,000 was an additional expenditure in connection with Moncton airport. It was found that additional drainage was required at that airport as a result of a very wet spring this year. I would point out that $40,000 of new money was supplied for that purpose, and the $60,000 is voted by way of revotes.


Howard Charles Green: The money was required at Moncton because the original work did not provide for any drainage; is that correct?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Not sufficient drainage, apparently. There was heavy snow there during the winter, and the drainage which was considered sufficient by the engineers when the work was constructed proved to be insufficient in the light of experience. There were heavy snowfalls in -the spring, and the drainage was not sufficient to carry off the melted snow, without damage to the airport.


Howard Charles Green: Thank you.


[Stage Direction]
377. Departmental administration, $106,080.
Howard Charles Green: What action has been taken by the war-time prices and trade board with regard to the increase in the price of bread?


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Chairman, I shall be pleased to place on Hansard an order which was issued by the war-time prices and trade board, and is in the following words:
1.	Until further notice, the maximum price per pound at which any grade, quality or type of wheat flour shall be sold or offered for sale by any person for consumption in Canada shall be the price per pound charged by such person for that grade, quality or type of wheat flour on the 23rd day of July, 1940, together with an addition consisting of a portion of the processing levy imposed on wheat products by the Canadian Wheat Board Act, 1935, as amended, which portion shall not exceed thirty-five cents per barrel of one hundred and ninety-six pounds net weight or the proportionate part of such sum if the flour .is packed in other types of containers; provided that, pursuant to section 18 (2) of the said Act as amended, in the case of flour delivered pursuant to a contract in force on the 24th day of July, 1940, for the future delivery of such flour, the whole of the said processing levy applicable to the flour so delivered may be added to the said maximum price.
2.	Until further notice, the maximum price per pound at which any grade, quality or type of bread shall be sold or offered for sale by any person shall be the price per pound charged by such person for that grade, quality or type of

Supply-Trade and Commerce

bread on the 23rd day of July, 1940, and no part of the processing levy referred to in section (1) hereof shall be added to the said maximum price.
3.	Until further notice, no change shall be made in the terms and conditions of sale effective on the 23rd day of July, 1940, which would result in an increase in the price of bread or wheat flour.
4.	This Order shall be effective on and after the 7th day of August, 1940.
H. B. McKinnon,
Chairman.


Howard Charles Green: In how many places were the prices raised?


James Angus MacKinnon: To the best of my knowledge in only one place, namely Vancouver.


Thomas Langton Church: When I first entered the house in 1922 I proposed a national coal policy for this country. Under that policy all the coal we would use would be mined in Canada -in the maritimes or in Alberta-or in Wales, or some other place under the British flag. In these times, with another war on, we are faced with the same problem of conservation, but we receive the same old stereotyped replies from the deputies in the department. Surely the government should wake up to the fact that something should be done for the coal, and iron and steel industries. The iron and steel industries should be permitted to use more Canadian coal. Although the minister does not agree with this, in my opinion there is a possibility of a coal famine, such as we had in 1917. In those days there was a serious shortage of fuel in Ontario and other provinces, and as a result fuel had to be rationed. I hope the government will consider this matter, and see if it is not possible to have a real, progressive national fuel policy.


Gordon Timlin Purdy: The hon. member spoke of the ruling of the war-time prices and trade board with regard to flour. Do the minister's remarks also apply to mill feeds?


James Angus MacKinnon: There is no processing tax on mill feeds.


Gordon Timlin Purdy: What is there to prevent the placing of the processing tax on mill feeds, thereby adding to the costs of our dairy farmers, who are already heavily hit?


James Angus MacKinnon: I believe that matter can be well left to the war-time prices and trade board.


Gordon Timlin Purdy: That is the question; will they also see to it that there is no increase in the price of mill feeds?


James Angus MacKinnon: They will give the matter consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Canada Grain Act.
389. Administration, $107,818.
Charles Edward Johnston: I have
just received a telegram from a group of farmers in my district. I shall read it to the minister, and perhaps he will give me sufficient information to reply to these people. It is addressed to me and reads:
Resolution passed by a meeting of 160 farmers here on August 5. We the farmers of the Carbon district find ourselves due to four years' hail and low prices of products in a position where it .will be impossible to even start harvest unless we receive assistance and, whereas we have been previously able to obtain assistance from either the bank or the elevator companies such assistance being no longer available, therefore we ask the dominion government to seriously consider assisting the farmers to harvest the present crop.
These 160 farmers are much concerned and they have wired me to get some definite information. As I pointed out the other day, this section has been seriously affected by hail. Hail comes through there almost every year, and I think this district has more hail than any point on the North American continent. These people pay their toll of one per cent into the prairie farm assistance scheme and they receive no assistance. They find they cannot carry on their fall operations and they are asking what can be done.


James Angus MacKinnon: The wheat committee of the cabinet is most sympathetic with the situation prevailing in certain districts in the west, but dealing with an individual case of this kind should, I think, be the first responsibility of the municipality or the provincial government.


Charles Edward Johnston: This is
not an individual case; there are 160 farmers involved.


James Angus MacKinnon: I
meant, comparatively speaking.


Charles Edward Johnston: Quite a
considerable district is affected. I imagine it would run for twenty-five or thirty miles, but it is not large enough to be considered a township. This whole strip has been cleaned out for the last several years and I think the government should do something.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Special.
116. To provide for commitments under relief settlement agreements with the provinces, including $350,000 for undischarged commitments, $500,000.	.
Mr. MaeINNIS: This is the vote under which the federal government assists the

Supply-Labour
provincial governments by means of grants in aid to discharge certain relief commitments. Within the last few months drastic relief regulations have been put into effect in most of the provinces. Some time ago single men were cut off relief in most of the larger cities. Married men with families are rapidly being taken off the relief rolls. My remarks will refer particularly to British Columbia because that is the province with which I am most familiar. The situation in Vancouver is quite desperate and is likely to lead to trouble unless something is done to ease the situation. I am given to understand that this is how the unemployed are dealt with. When it is considered that a relief recipient can meet the requirements for military service, relief is refused. Should the man attempt to enlist, as many have done, and be rejected, it is next to impossible for him to get back on the relief rolls. This treatment of the unemployed, particularly the married unemployed, has resulted in great hardship to the women and children.
There is a feeling abroad, particularly among persons in comfortable circumstances, that because we are at war there must be work for everybody. Unfortunately this is not the case and there is a great deal of unemployment. The latest figures from the bureau of statistics are generally a few months late. The May figures for unemployment are the most recent which I have been able to obtain. At the beginning of May it was estimated that there were 305.000 unemployed in Canada. That is a considerable amount of unemployment. I am sure that we shall not improve the situation to any extent by cutting people off relief in the hope that they will be able to find work. A person cannot find work unless there is work. The mere fact that there are hundreds of thousands of unemployed is sufficient proof that work is not available. I have often observed that the more cushy the position a person is in, the better he is provided for by the labour of others, the more he is appalled by the laziness and shiftlessness of the unemployed. This applies in particular to many of our municipal and provincial nincompoops in British Columbia, who have to do with unemployment and relief.
Another factor, which applies with more force to British Columbia than to the central provinces, is that British Columbia has not received the large volume of war contracts which the central provinces have had. That is one side of the picture.
There is also another side. Although there is undoubtedly more work this year than there was last year, many employers, instead of taking on more men, are compelling the workers already employed to work longer
95826-163J
hours. In British Columbia there is an hours of work law which limits the working day to eight hours, and the working week, I believe, to not over forty-four hours, but it is being violated right and left, and the government seems to be both deaf and blind to those violations. Many of the lumber mills, some of them working on war work, producing aeroplane lumber-I might mention the Cypress Spruce Lumber company of British Columbia-are working ten hours a day, six days a week. Employees in other companies are working ten hours a day for five days and nine hours on Saturdays. While these long hours of work prevail in some industries at the same time queues are lined up in front of the employment bureaux begging for work.
I know there is another item which deals with employment offices, but I think I shall say a word about them now so that I need not again address the committee on the subject. It would be appropriate action for the government to compel employers to register their needs for men with the employment offices. Many employers do not do this. I may be told that the federal government has now no jurisdiction in this matter. But may I point out that we are working under war conditions; and if the government has, as undoubtedly it has, the power to make all persons register and give their life histories, I see no reason why it is not competent to compel employers to register at the employment bureaux their needs for labour power.
At this time, when we require the cooperation and the good-will of everyone, it is peculiarly important that an effort should be made to create those conditions which will build the mental and emotional states necessary to a united effort. We cannot have the cooperation and good-will which are so much desired if many people are unemployed while others are working overtime. By allowing such a state of affairs to continue, we create ideal conditions for those who are interested in fomenting discontent. I would impress upon the minister and the government that every effort should be made to remove as far as possible even the slightest occasion for stirring up discontent. In these days we hear much about democracy. Let me say that we must make democracy something more than an abstraction if it is to mean anything to the unemployed and to the workers and farmers who just manage to exist but who have never lived. We must translate democracy into the amenities and the comforts of life if we are to obtain the cooperation and good-will so necessary to bring us success in our present effort. I implore the minister to take up this question with the provincial governments
25S8
Supply-Labour
[Stage Direction]
and insist that so long as we have unemployment, at least a minimum of decent and reasonable living conditions shall be provided.
The number of persons unemployed does not matter so very much. Remember that one person who is out of work suffers just as much as if there were a hundred unemployed, and a hundred unemployed experience as much suffering as if the problem involved several hundred thousands. The fact that there is a war on, or that we believe there may be work available, is no reason why we should allow people to be thrown off the relief rolls until we are satisfied that every one of them, by the exercise of ordinary effort, can get work.
Hon. NORMAN A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):	Mr. Chairman, if I correctly
interpret the remarks of the hon. member for Vancouver East, they are to the effect that so long as some are unemployed, we should not unduly increase hours of labour so as to give extra work to those who are employed, thus prejudicing the position of those who are not employed. I believe he also stressed the importance of having employment offices to see to it that the conditions which he suggests, and correctly, have heretofore existed, shall not continue.
In the first place, the hon. member is well aware, and none better, that incidental to the Unemployment Insurance Act, of which he was of such great assistance in securing the passing, it will be necessary for the Department of Labour of Canada to take over the employment agencies. I trust and believe that the execution of that undertaking will provide a complete answer to the question he raises about employment offices.
As regards the problem of hours of labour, I agree with him that while men are unemployed it is inadvisable to increase to an unreasonable extent the hours of labour of those who are in employment. Circumstances and occasions may render necessary some increase of hours, but until every man in Canada is employed it is a sound and definite policy not to lengthen hours of labour provided we can arrange increased shifts.
I believe I have covered in a general way the suggestions made by the hon. member. If there are others, I shall be glad to deal with them.
Angus MacInnis: I should like to see the
government adopt a new attitude towards the unemployed and to deal with them, not on the principle that they are a nuisance, but because we hate misery and want to relieve it. Let the government deal with unemployment in a humane way, as if the unemployed were members of the family and we were

determined not to see members of the family in need. Take them into the family circle, because they cannot be in the family as long as they are outcasts and unemployed. That is what I should like to see the federal and provincial governments do.


Mr. McLARTY:: Nothing could give one
more satisfaction than to see this tragedy of unemployment, if we may so describe it, ended. Fortunately the figures indicate a definite reduction. I assure the hon. gentleman that any failure to take steps to end unemployment is due not to any complacent and smug attitude on the part of this government but to the fact that we are dealing with an exceedingly difficult problem.
Fortunately or unfortunately, it has been solved to some extent under existing conditions. I say unfortunately, because the conditions are undoubtedly unfortunate, and fortunately, because the facts are demonstrating to us each day that those conditions are nevertheless improving. If there are any proposals which the hon. gentleman can make that would assist us in the matter, I should be glad to hear them.


Thomas Langton Church: Will the minister try to broaden out the agreements in connection with the settlement of the relief problem with the provinces in order to bring about some joint action by the dominion and the provincial governments with regard to moratorium, rents, usury and all such matters notwithstanding the laws, statutes, usages or customs of the country? Nothing weighs more heavily on the working people than these matters to which I have referred. The government may have to broaden out the War Measures Act, but they will not need additional legislation. It is all very well to say that the price control board has jurisdiction, but we know that nothing can be done under that board. There is jurisdiction in England; there the government can take action in any direction for the welfare and good of the country. I am simply asking the minister to consider this problem jointly with the provinces during the recess of parliament in order to see if something really satisfactory cannot be evolved, because nothing reacts more detrimentally upon the people than the evils to which I have referred. The action of the loan companies in the district from which I come is simply scandalous, and I urge the government to take steps to bring about some joint action with the provinces in this regard during the recess of parliament.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I am sure the hon. member appreciates the fact that the constitutional question and the difficulties involved will

Supply-Labour
present quite a problem, but I will bear in mind the observations he has made and will see how far we can go along the lines he indicates.


Thomas Langton Church: Let me make a further suggestion. Under "peace, order and good government" the minister, by the War Measures Act, can take absolute control of these prices in Canada and can take action with regard to moratorium, wages, rents and so forth. There is no doubt about it. Let him act; let him try it, and see who will appeal. He has the power under the "peace, order and good government" provision, notwithstanding any laws, statutes, usages or customs of the country.


Mr. McNEVIN:: I realize that the provincial governments, through their departments of labour, have control over hours of work, minimum wages and so forth, but in connection particularly with construction works under the federal government, I should like to know whether the rates of pay of time and a half for overtime and double time for Sunday still apply.


Norman Alexander McLarty: The question of wages is one for the provinces except in so far as it may affect works carried on directly by the government of Canada. We have set up the national labour supply council whose duty it is to endeavour to work out a definite arrangement with regard to time and overtime, and I am sure they will discharge that duty properly.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: As regards pay of time and a half for overtime and double pay for Sunday work, the regulation was adopted in order to restrain an employer from imposing upon his employees, but so far as these government works are concerned, that provision, I believe, should be left out of consideration entirely. At a time when we are asking the Canadian people to make great sacrifices, to buy war savings stamps, and when we are paying our soldiers $1.30 a day, we should be careful on these large construction works to see that workmen are fairly treated. I am not in favour of overtime if there are people unemployed, but if there are people who are employed overtime and on Sunday the regular rates of pay should prevail, and I believe the Canadian people would support the idea.


John Horne Blackmore: What are the latest figures with regard to unemployment in Canada? Do they indicate any fall in unemployment? I should like to know the trend of unemployment.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Naturally it is down. What I had in mind was a composite picture
of a large number of cities representing about 60 per cent of those on relief. I could place that on Hansard, but I dislike to clutter up the record. The figures indicate a definite reduction as between the figures we were discussing when the Unemployment and Agricultural Assistance Act was being debated and the figures as at the end of July.


John Horne Blackmore: Do the minister's
figures concern those on relief or those who are employed?


Norman Alexander McLarty: They concern those on relief. The employment figures of the Department of Labour relate to those who are in receipt of welfare. I do not propose to give all the figures unless it is the wish of the committee, but will give just enough to indicate the trend of the reduction in the number of those receiving relief. I shall be glad to give that for any particular city or community, but generally I might say that as between March and July the percentage of reduction in those unemployed and in receipt of welfare is substantial.
I know the hon. member for Vancouver East is anxious to ask the question. Those figures are within the purview of the dominion bureau of statistics; the figures I can give are of those receiving welfare. I shall be glad to give any figures any hon. member would like to have.


Angus MacInnis: What is the latest date for which the minister has figures?


Norman Alexander McLarty: The latest date is the end of July, 1940, for forty-one cities in Canada. The average rate of reduction is 34-6 per cent. I shall be glad to give the statistics for any particular city that hon. members would like to have and that happens to be included in the list.


Angus MacInnis: I submit that the figures the minister has are not worth the ink it took to print them. They give the numbers of those receiving relief, but there are many people who are not receiving relief but who are yet unemployed. Those are the people in whom I am interested, the people who are unemployed but are not getting relief. The people receiving relief have at least something to get by on. The bureau of statistics gives the only real figures we have in regard to the number unemployed, and these are only estimates. They show a substantial increase in the numbers employed at the beginning of July, but do not give the figures of those unemployed. The latest figures we have from the bureau of statistics are for the end of May. At that time the bureau estimated that there were 305,000 persons unemployed. There may be thousands of these who are not receiv-
Supply-Labour

ing relief, because they have been cut off the lists. What I desire is to get these people back on relief until we find employment for them. Any government that is interested in human welfare would do that.


Norman Alexander McLarty: The hon. member is quite correct. I thought I made it clear that the figures I was quoting were of those on welfare, not necessarily complete figures of those unemployed. The figure he gave is correct. But I thought that in dealing with Department of Labour statistics I was right in giving the figure I did because the only figures that we in the Department of Labour have are as to those who are on welfare.
Mr. MiacINNIS: The point I was trying to make-I do not know if I have made it clear yet-is that those on relief, or, as the minister says, on welfare, are very much different from those who are unemployed. If we cut all our unemployed off relief, and said we would not give any relief, there would be no one on welfare but there would be the same number unemployed.


Norman Alexander McLarty: But there is no registration of those unemployed. I am giving the registration figures of those receiving direct relief. They are not, of course, all-inclusive figures. I adopt the figures of the bureau of statistics as being correct, but it has no registration. I am giving the registration figures of the Department of Labour only.


Clarence Gillis: I think the figures the minister has are of some value, and I should like to see them placed on Hansard. I do not suggest that we should take time to go over them here to-night, but I should like to have them so that we could study them. At the same time I agree with the hon. member for Vancouver Bast. For the past year or so, province after province have been broadcasting the statement that unemployment is on the wane, and they quote the figures in regard to relief

"so many have gone off relief." But I know that so far as Nova Scotia is concerned, the ones who have been cut off relief have not gone into employment; they are unemployed; but because the relief rolls have been reduced, the government says that unemployment is on the wane, which is not true.
There is a new phase of unemployment as far as my part of the country is concerned, namely, the question of relief for aliens deprived of their work because they are aliens. There is at present quite a number of them in the coal mining sections of Nova Scotia. About a month ago the matter was taken up with the minister in the house. (Mr. Maclnnis.]
He assured me then that the question had been taken up with the provincial government, that an understanding had been arrived at and that matter would be taken care of in the future. Only to-day I received a telegam from another section advising me that a number of Italians particularly were deprived of itheir employment through no fault of their own, and were receiving no relief. They asked if I would take the matter up with the minister. I take this opportunity of asking him whether that matter has been taken care of. That telegram came from the secretary of a local union who is responsible and knows what he is talking about. We have had the assurance that the provincial government was taking care of the matter, but until to-day in that section, which is the Dunakin section of Nova Scotia, it has not been taken care of. Could the minister say whether that question has been definitely settled with the Nova Scotia government?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I am glad to give this information to the hon. member for Cape Breton South. Dependents of interned aliens are looked after by the dominion government. Aliens who are unemployed naturally come under the same class as other unemployed. The primary responsibility for the administration of relief is with the municipality and the province. We make our contribution; in some instances we have perhaps gone further than we were justified in going in connection with making investigations, but primarily, it must be admitted, the responsibility is on the municipality and the provincial government.
The hon. member raised some time ago a question as to whether or not those people are receiving a proper measure of relief. When he did so, I asked that communications bo sent to the province to ascertain if they are so receiving relief. In each case I have received a confirmation that they are being properly looked after. I think that is as far as the Minister of Labour of Canada, who is not responsible for administration, could be asked to go. I have carried out the suggestions made by the hon. member to endeavour to ascertain if proper provision is being made. I can go no further.


Clarence Gillis: I am quite satisfied that the minister has done what he could, but I think he is not receiving from that end of the country the cooperation that he should receive on that question.


John Horne Blackmore: I wish to associate myself with what the hon. member for Vancouver East has said. I do not wish to delay the passage of the items, but I should like

Supply-Labour
to say once again to the minister in all seriousness that this is the first time in the world's history that a war is being fought in an age of abundance. Consequently all the principles that have applied in past wars are not likely to apply in this war. We have always thought that when war came on, unemployment disappeared; but just to show how different are the experiences of this war,
I should like to read a short paragraph from this evening's Ottawa Citizen, with regard to conditions in Great Britain, where, above all nations in the world, one would expect to see the disappearance of unemployment. This dispatch is dated London, August 5:
The United Kingdom's unemployed increased by 60.431 between June 17 and July 15 to 827,266, according to ministiy of labour figures issued to-day.
That does not necessarily mean that Canada's unemployed are going to increase in number, but it does mean that unless conditions exist in Canada which do not exist in Great Britain, in all probability the number of our unemployed will increase. There are in Canada conditions which do not exist in Great Britain.	We have resources
which are not to be found there. Wherever there are resources, people should be employable upon those resources; but if we are not using the right means to put people to work, then as far as the effect on our unemployed is concerned, we might just as well not have those resources. The result is that even where there are bountiful resources, there may be an increasing unemployment problem.	Particularly is there
danger because of the great amount of taxation which has been placed upon the country and because of the large contributions we are urging people to make.
I do not want to labour this point, but I wish to do my full duty in setting forth the dangers which I think exist in Canada. It must be understood that in order to employ people, industry must be able to sell goods. If industry cannot sell goods, it cannot employ people; and if we take out of the hands of the people the money with which they have been buying food, clothes and various other articles, there is going to be difficulty in selling goods and consequently difficulty in employing people to produce goods. This means that unless we increase war production at a tremendous rate, so as to absorb the people thrown out of employment, we are going to have an increase in unemployment. What I am afraid of is just what was pointed out by the hon. member for Vancouver East, that there will be a gradual increase in the suffering endured in this country until the condition will become almost unbelievably bad. That
will have a reaction upon our morale, and will place us in a genuinely dangerous position.
I just want to point this out to the minister. I am not saying he is responsible;
I think he is doing his part well. But, as the hon. member for Cape Breton South has pointed out, there is a number of provincial officials who have not become much more realistic than they have had to, who have allowed themselves to be deceived and deluded, who have become hard-boiled, callous, tough, and all that sort of thing. As a result, this suffering goes on right before their noses, to the point where it may bring this country to an inflammable state, which certainly would be disastrous from every angle. If we can show wisdom; if we can be forearmed; if we can develop our foresight to be as good as our hindsight, as the saying is, perhaps it will be all to the good. I earnestly believe that there is danger of our overlooking a serious condition of suffering.
I might mention just one or two matters which cause me to worry. In perhaps every third mail I get a request for work from someone in my constituency. Always the indication is that there is no work to be found for these people, although they may be young men or women. I have set out to find work for them; and I would just about as soon look for a needle in a haystack as look for a job in Canada at this time. As long as this situation exists, there is something radically wrong with conditions in this country. If we were absorbing our unemployed as we should be, there would not be people writing me from away out in my constituency for very small jobs. Jobs should be available there, but apparently there is none.
There is one other matter about which 1 am greatly alarmed. I know half a dozen people right here in the city of Ottawa who are relatively young; that is, they are about thirty-nine or forty, certainly under forty-five years of age. These people are in a position to do a good day's work, but they cannot find work although they have been looking for it now for weeks and weeks. There is a tendency on the part of the civil service to say, "We will not take people when they get beyond a certain age". When we were boys-of course the minister and I are just boys yet-we expected people to do a good day's work at sixty-eight and seventy, and they did. I have seen men of seventy stand up to the hard work of the hay field and grain field; I have seen them work on the thresher; I have seen them hauling, stooking, stacking, and all that sort of thing. That is a clear indication that men far beyond forty-five years of age are able to do a good day's work, but for some
Supply-Labour

reason or another, to-day we do not have any use for people when they are over forty-five. This is another indication that we are not absorbing the unemployed. We just do not have any use for these people.
To me all these matters indicate that there is cause for grave concern and need for the most watchful care on the part of the Minister of Labour.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
119. To provide for contribution to plans for rehabilitation of unemployed higher age persons (revote for commitments $45,200), $295,000.
Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am surprised to see that this grant should be reduced by $385,000. This concerns people of the class to which hon. gentlemen have just been referring, who need help perhaps more than anyone else. They need to be retained, and as time goes on, Canada is going to need the services of these people. Just why has this vote been reduced by this amount?


Norman Alexander McLarty: Perhaps I can explain
that to the hon. member. This vote is primarily predicated upon what the provinces match dollar for dollar. It does not mean that this represents the sum total of what the Department of Labour is going to do in the matter of retraining. I may add that in our technical schools at the present time we are training and retraining more than 7.200 men. This vote represents an amount which we estimate the provinces will be able to contribute dollar for dollar.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The government are retraining these people in the higher age groups in the technical schools?


Norman Alexander McLarty: No, not necessarily. This is the general vote for retraining, which is paid dollar for dollar by the provinces. The dominion is doing much more in the way of retraining, but not under this vote.


John Horne Blackmore: Up to what age may men be retrained? For example, if the minister and I were suddenly thrown out of work, would there be room for us in the retraining scheme?


Norman Alexander McLarty: I am sure there would be plenty of opportunity for the hon. member for Lethbridge, but I should not like to fix a maximum age. I do not know what it would be.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: There are many
people who want to give their services to the country, and who are quite capable of doing so. They should be told-and particularly those in the civil service-that the fact that a man is fifty, fifty-five or sixty-five years of [Mr. Blackmore.l
age is not sufficient reason for excluding him. Our country needs men at the present time. We shall need the services of every good Canadian before this job is done.


John Horne Blackmore: I associate myself
most emphatically with the hon. member who has just taken his seat. There should be no limit to the ages of people who should be permitted to give service at the present time. That rule in connection with the civil service should be absolutely and immediately abolished.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Special.
122. Amount required to provide for administration expenses generally, including salaries and travelling expenses:-
Unemployment relief	 $155,000
National registration	 99,000
Youth training	 21,500
Comptroller of the treasury		25.000
Douglas Gooderham Ross: Now that we are
taking a national registration, will this amount of $99,000 be needed?


Norman Alexander McLarty: This is the registration
recommended by the national employment commission, relative to unemployment relief.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It probably will
not be needed.


Norman Alexander McLarty: We trust it will not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Customs and Excise divisions.
212. General administration, $979,625.
Clarence Gillis: For the past few years hospitals throughout the country have enjoyed exemptions from the sales tax on certain purchases necessary to their operation. There is a rumour to the effect that this exemption is to be abolished. Is that correct?


Hon. C. W. G. GIBSON (Minister of National Revenue):: I have heard of no suggestion to the effect that the sales tax exemption would be abolished.


Clarence Gillis: I have had several letters
to that effect.


[Stage Direction]
1/0. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, $401,930.
Howard Charles Green: Two years ago a special committee of the house investigated the operations of the Civil Service Act, and brought in its report on June 28, 1938. The last paragraph of that report reads:

Supply-Auditor General's Office
Your committee recommends that long term temporaries on the staff of the House of Commons who have been giving satisfactory service for a number of years should be made permanent employees under the civil service commission.
I understand that this recommendation, so far as it concerns the officers of the preventive service in the House of Commons, has not yet been acted upon. I believe the constables on the senate side of the building have been made permanent, and their salaries have been set. I understand, however, that no provision has been made for the constables on this side. Is it possible to have that matter attended to, without further delay?
Hon. PIERRE F. CASGRAIN (Secretary of State): Part of the recommendation of the committee has been implemented. While I had the honour of holding the Speaker's chair, a resolution was brought in and adopted, and payment of these employees was dealt with in that way. This year a resolution was voted some time ago, and a few employees were made permanent. It is the intention later on to do it for the others, as was suggested a moment ago by the hon. member.


Howard Charles Green: Would the minister have the position of the preventive service checked again?


Pierre-François Casgrain: This question will have to be looked into by His Honour the Speaker of the House of Commons. Then, if the resolution is passed by the House of Commons, these people will receive the privilege they seek. I believe this will be done in due course.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
SCJi. Naturalization branch, $61,365.
Howard Charles Green: Certain recommendations
with regard to naturalization were made to the government by the special committee which at this session considered the defence of Canada regulations. Will those recommendations be adopted by the government?
Hon. PIERRE F. CASGRAIN (Secretary of State): We shall look into the recommendations made by the committee. If I recollect correctly, I believe the committee suggested that next year a committee might be set up to consider the Naturalization Act. Possibly we shall be able to do that at the next session.


Howard Charles Green: They made a further recommendation with regard to the hearing of applications by enemy aliens for naturalization. I would suggest that the minister should check that recommendation carefully.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I shall look into the matter, and if it is possible to do so, we shall do it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
AUDITOR general's OFFICE
38. To authorize payment from the consolidated revenue fund to Georges Gonthier, former auditor general, of an annuity at the rate of $1,500, to commence on his retirement from the position of auditor general and to continue during his lifetime, $2,083.33.
Grote Stirling: I do not think this item should be allowed to pass without some comment being made and without some explanation by the government. Two or three weeks ago the leader of the opposition raised this question in the house in passing reference, and at that time the Minister of Finance replied, as reported on page 1914 of Hansard:
The government proposes to leave that particular item to the untrammeled discretion of the house, every member being free to vote as he likes upon the question. The auditor general is an officer of parliament and not of the government. His contention is that he has been legislated out of his position, having taken a position with the same tenure as that of a supreme court judge, and is entitled to the same treatment accorded supreme court judges by statute a few years ago. That is the basis for the item. The government simply proposes to place that item before the house, leaving it to every individual member to vote just as he or she desires. It is not put forward as a government measure, and the house will be given an opportunity to give effect to the auditor general's contention if it desires to do so.
I rise to protest against that method of dealing with this item. It appears to me the government should make known its own intention with regard to how such a matter should be treated. WThen an item like this is placed in the estimates it is certain to cause difficulty. Unless the most ample explanation is given, the thought of discrimination will be around, not only among the civil servants but throughout Canada. What are the facts? Sixteen years ago the auditor general was appointed at a salary three times that paid to his predecessor; he received two and a half times the salary paid to his predecessor, plus an annual amount which was voted by this house. Throughout the years of his service the auditor general paid into the superannuation fund the requisite amount. One must necessarily presume that he accepted the fact that that would be the basis for the superannuation which he would eventually receive. His superannuation on retirement amounted to $4,850 or some such figure annually.
At the termination of that service the auditor general chose to consider that he had been wrongly treated, that he should have been looked upon as a supreme court judge.

Supply-Auditor General's Office
When he paid into plan number five of the superannuation fund it was on the understanding that in the event of his death his widow would receive half his superannuation. If he now changes his mind and desires to be treated as a supreme court judge, in the event of his death his widow should not receive compensation. It does not seem to me reasonable that so much should be made of the contention of this gentleman and that an item should be placed in the estimates which, I presume, will have to be voted year after year during the lifetime of this gentleman. It should not be left to this house to say whether or not that is the proper action.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I want to place this case fairly and
squarely before the House of Commons, whose servant the auditor general is, and leave it to the judgment of the house. I want to point out that prior to 1931 the tenure of the office of the auditor general was the same as the tenure of supreme court judges. I do not think it will be necessary for me to go back very far into the history of Great Britain to illustrate how serious the matter of the tenure of supreme court judges has been considered; I think it will be sufficient to say that it figured in two revolutions. The matter was finally settled by the settlement act of 1702 when it was decided that supreme court judges should hold office during good behaviour and should only be removable by an address of the two houses of parliament.
In the early stages of confederation, specifically in 1878, it was determined by the federal parliament that the office of auditor general was of sufficient importance to the Dominion of Canada that the appointees should have the same tenure as judges of the supreme *court. Since that time, auditors general have been appointed under the same act, with certain variations or amendments, with their term to run during good behaviour, which is usually taken to be interchangeable with the term "for life," and they were to be removable only by an address of both houses of parliament. Why was that done? That was *done to guarantee in so far as it possibly could be guaranteed the independence of the auditor general.
Upon the auditor general is cast an extremely difficult, unpleasant and responsible task. It is his duty to check ministers and departments of the government, even the government itself, and report to this House of Commons anything which he may find wrong in connection with expenditures. The matters upon which he is to report are listed in the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act. It is provided in that act that the Min-

ister of Finance shall make his report to the House of Commons, but if he does not make that report, then the auditor general may report direct to the house, thus showing that he is an officer of the bouse and not under the government.


Mr. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: Has he ever so reported?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The auditor general reports every year.


Arza Clair Casselman: I mean to the house.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The report of the auditor general is presented to the house. It may be that the salary of this gentleman was increased when he was appointed, but I am not interested in that. All I am interested in is that this high officer is appointed under the same tenure as applies to supreme court judges and for the same reason, in order that absolute independence may be guaranteed.


Grote Stirling: Was he appointed under a statute?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Was there an order in council citing a statute which placed him on the same basis as a supreme court judge?


James Lorimer Ilsley: He was appointed by virtue of a provision that that should be the tenure upon which he should hold office.
We now come along to 1931. In that year the act was amended in such a way that the auditor general must retire from office at the age of seventy. Something like that was done with respect to the judges of the supreme court, in the year 1927, and it was followed in 1930 with an act in which this parliament recognized the extreme importance and the extreme gravity of interfering with that type of tenure. By that act the judges of the supreme court, although they were retired at seventy-five, not seventy years, were given a pension for life equivalent to their entire salary.
I myself intend to vote for this item. I assume that the administration will vote for it; I do not know about that; but I intend to vote for it on the ground that it is extremely important that this parliament should realize the seriousness of legislating a person out of his position when it is of this high nature, when it may be regarded as the corner-stone of our parliamentary control over governmental expenditure. I could not, occupying the position I do, take a light view of this issue.
That is the sole reason for the item. It does not go so far as the Supreme Court

Supply-Auditor General's Office
Judges Act of 1930 went. It gives this official
SI,500	a year, which is the additional pension he would have received had he continued in office until he was seventy-five years of age. That is the basis of this SI ,500 item.
As regards the attitude of the committee, I said the other day that we do not regard this as a government measure, and every hon. member is completely free to vote as he wishes. I would say this to hon. members, that he is your man; he reports to you and to us, and he has reported to the other governments, as far as that goes. If hon. members think it is important to preserve the principle, well and good; if they do not think it important, then they will vote the other way.
I am not interested in the matter on personal grounds. I do not know anything as to the need of the auditor general for this pension. I am putting the matter not on that ground at all, but on the ground of principle, that when the tenure of office of an official such as he, is shortened, some recognition of the fact must be made.
I do not know that I can add very much, but I would suggest this. The present auditor general has been appointed under an act which makes him hold office during good behaviour, and he is removable only on address of both houses of parliament, but he remains only until seventy years of age. It is extremely important that the auditor general should be independent. It is extremely important that he should not be in any way amenable to suggestions of the government. He must be independent of them at all times; otherwise parliament has no protection. For example, would the house regard it as proper to legislate him out of his position at sixty years of age, without compensation? I put that to the committee because, if this precedent is created, it may well be that a subsequent government might desire to get rid of this particular auditor general; and the moment the continuity of the position is thus jeopardized, the independence of auditors general will be to some extent affected.
I repeat that these are my own personal views. Perhaps I should say that they are the views of the government. They certainly were the views of those ministers who were members of the government at the time the item was inserted. But the committee is completely free to do exactly as it wishes in connection with this item.


Grote Stirling: One point mentioned
by the minister I did not follow, namely, why should the government now, in 1940, take this view, whereas during the time it has been in office, and during the time it was previously
in office-if one can so speak of an entity of which the same prime minister is the head- it permitted the auditor general to pay into the superannuation fund a certain sum of money which would entitle him at the end of the period of his service to such-and-such a pension? I do not understand why this matter did not arise years ago and be settled on the basis that the minister has explained, namely that this was an individual who was answerable to parliament, occupied in its mind a position which was on the basis of that of a supreme court judge, and consequently, at retirement, if ever, would be entitled to the same treatment as a supreme court judge.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The auditor general is entitled to the benefits of the Civil Service Superannuation Act.


James Joseph McCann: He gets them.


James Lorimer Ilsley: He made his contributions
under the Civil Service Superannuation Act and is entitled to superannuation under that act.


Arza Clair Casselman: As a matter of right.


James Lorimer Ilsley: As a matter of right. That is a separate thing. That is statutory.


Angus MacInnis: What is the amount of
his superannuation under the Superannuation Act?


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is $4,750 or thereabouts.


Arza Clair Casselman: What is his age now?


James Lorimer Ilsley: He retired at seventy, as he was obliged to do.


Grote Stirling: He will be seventy-one
in November.
Air. AlacIiENZIE (Lambton-Kent):	I
have no doubt that the facts which the Alin-ister of Finance has reported are correct, but the fact remains that in 1923, when this auditor general was appointed, his predecessor, who, I presume, performed the same duties, received $7,000 a year. But when this man was appointed, while his salary was maintained at $7,000 for the first seven years, in order to make it up to $15,000 a year an item of $8,000 was placed in the public estimates and squabbled over every year for the first seven years. In the result, for sixteen years he received $15,000 a year, and now he retires on a superannuation of approximately $4,800. I believe the amount mentioned to me by an official of the superannuation board was $4,820.


James Lorimer Ilsley: It is $4,750.


Air. MacKENZIE (Lambton-Kent):: The
fact remains that he got $15,000 for sixteen

Supply-Auditor General's Office
years, whereas his predecessor got only $7,000 a year. I think the gentleman in question has been fairly well taken care of, and I move that the item be struck out altogether.


Thomas Vien: I should like to point out that when this gentleman was appointed auditor general he would never have accepted to give up his office in Montreal if the salary attaching to the position had not been increased. My hon. friend waves his finger in denial of my statement. He may not know the facts. But I can tell him that I do know the facts. This gentleman had an office as public accountant in Montreal which yielded him more than $15,000 a year. He was called in by the then Minister of Justice, Sir Lomer Gouin, who prevailed upon him to accept the position.


Hugh Alexander MacKenzie: At


Thomas Vien: Not at $7,000 a year, at $15,000 a year. There was the statutory salary of $7,000, but the order in council appointing him stipulated a salary of $15,000 per annum, $8,000 of which was to be provided for by a vote in . he estimates, and parliament has voted this supplement of $8,000 from year to year ever since.
I am disinterested. I have no interest in the matter other than seeing that justice be done. When man is appointed by the crown to a position tor life, such an appointment for life is on -''>rallel with that of a justice of the supreme court. Mr. Gonthier left a very profitable business and accepted to serve the Parliament of Canada, as auditor general, for $15,000 a year, for life. Such was the contract between the government of Canada and Mr. Gonthier.
Under Mr. Bennett, in 1931, I believe, provisions were made for the retirement at seventy years of age, of high officials of the crown and the auditor general was included. The auditor general is not a civil servant. He is an officer of parliament. A civil servant is appointed by the civil service commission. The auditor general is appointed by order in council. A civil servant is appointed during pleasure. The auditor general is appointed during good behaviour. A civil servant can be dismissed at will. The auditor general, like a justice of our high courts can be dismissed only on impeachment voted by the two houses of parliament. When parliament, in its wisdom, chose to establish an age limit, at seventy-five, for federal court justices, the Civil Service Superannuation Act was not applied, and properly so. Why? Because supreme court judges are not civil servants. And the auditor general is not a civil servant. He is the servant of parliament,
[Mr. H. A. MacKenzie.l
and responsible to parliament alone. He is not an employee of the government of Canada. The government cannot dismiss him. Appointed by the government, he can be dismissed only as a judge of the high courts can be dismissed, by both houses of parliament. Otherwise, he is appointed for life.


James Joseph McCann: Was he dismissed?


Thomas Vien: He was not dismissed. After his appointment, in 1922 or 1923-


Grote Stirling: In 1924.


Thomas Vien: Seven or eight years later he was included in the age limit provided for in the Civil Service Act. In 1929 we had set an age limit for the judges of the supreme court and of the exchequer court, who had been appointed for life. Parliament decreed that they should retire at the age of seventy-five. In 1930, however, a law was'passed giving them the benefit of their full salary for life. They had been appointed by order in council for life, at a certain salary. Parliament respected the contract, and all judges appointed prior to 1929 received their full salary for life, although compelled to retire at the age of seventy-five.
With that precedent on our statute books the auditor general could have claimed his full salary for life, on the same basis. The government should have given him as much. It now proposes, by this item in the estimates, to give him, on retirement the same compensation as he would have been entitled to, 'had he retired at the age of seventy-five. That is all that is entailed in the estimates. In my opinion, the full measure of justice due to the retiring auditor general would have been to pay him his full salary for the rest of his life, as we provided for the supreme court and the exchequer court judges. Mr. Gonthier is simply asking that, instead of his superannuation being computed on the basis of his retirement age at seventy years of age on account of his forced retirement, such superannuation should be computed as if he had retired at seventy-five. That is all.
Hon. gentlemen should understand that there is a fundamental difference between high officers of the crown, the auditor general, judges of the supreme and exchequer courts, and ordinary civil servants appointed under the Civil Service Act, and Civil Service Superannuation Act. I can say further that, had I been consulted as a lawyer, I would have advised the auditor general to claim the full payment of his salary, and for life.


Grote Stirling: The previous auditor
general, I am informed, received a statutory salary of $5,000, which was augmented by an

Supply-Auditor GcneraVs Office
additional vote. On January 18, 1924, a new auditor general was appointed. Can the Prime Minister say under what terms he was appointed? Was he appointed for life? Was there any indication at that time that the treatment he would receive would be that of a supreme court judge? The present Prime Minister was Prime Minister at that time. Can he recollect the terms under which the auditor general who has just been retired was appointed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot recollect the terms of the appointment.


James Joseph McCann: While the hon. gentleman who occupies the position of Deputy Speaker of the house is quite within his rights in leaving the chair to defend any of his friends or civil servants of the house, let me say that he has performed a unique act on this occasion.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I have seen it done before. The gentleman who was deputy speaker between 1930 and 1935 did it.


Thomas Vien: The hon. gentleman will admit that the Deputy Speaker is still the member for Outremont.


James Joseph McCann: I indicated that in my opening sentence when I said that while the hon. gentleman was quite within his rights, it was a unique act for one in his position.


Thomas Vien: I am defending what I considered a case of simple justice.


James Joseph McCann: The hon. gentleman's
argument does not hold water. The auditor general's position and that of judges of the supreme court, while they may be relative, are not comparable. There is only one auditor general, and that is the case we are dealing with on this occasion. I submit that if the auditor general of Canada has a contract with the dominion through this government and he feels that he is unjustly dealt with, he should have recourse to justice through the exchequer court of Canada. Let him sue the dominion for that which he feels is due him. He is already receiving superannuation. It has been argued he is not even a civil servant. If he is not even a civil servant, then why does he claim treatment under the civil service superannuation? He is a civil servant, although perhaps not appointed by the civil service commission. He is responsible to the parliament of Canada, and the parliament of Canada to the people, and this is the proper place to deal with this particular item.
When this matter was brought up and studied for two years by the committee on superannuation, of which I was a member,
I felt that an injustice was being done if superannuation were paid to any employee of this government at a rate higher than $4,000 per annum. While this matter would not come under that particular regulation, with regard to employees of the government who take on superannuation from such a date as the recommendation of the superannuation committee might be put into effect, we attempted to establish, and so recommended to the government, that no employee be given superannuation in excess of $4,000 a year.
What does this mean? A superannuation allowance of $4,800 and an annuity of $1,500, total $6,300 a year. It means that this government sets aside a capital sum of $200,000, the interest on which shall be paid to a public servant who has received a salary of $15,000. I do not know Mr. Gonthier personally at all; I do not know what his needs are, but I protest as strongly as I can against the injustice of giving one man $6,300 a year while another man who has given his life to the government service for thirty or forty years is put off with a meagre $80 or $90 or $100 a month.


Thomas Vien: What attitude did the hon.
member take in this house when retiring allowance equal to full salary was allowed the judges of the supreme court?


James Joseph McCann: It is, of course, hard to
deal with these individual cases when laws are established and pension is given by statute. The principle of the whole thing is wrong.


Thomas Vien: The same principle applies
here.


James Joseph McCann: The principle is wrong whether it has been established for years or not, and people protest against it. I hear it from time to time; one reads every day in the papers of people protesting against high government officials who have had good salaries throughout their life being given superannuation far above what they are actually entitled to. The cases may be relative, but they are not comparable. I hope the day may come when these large superannuation allowances will not be put into effect. I believe that a man who has been employed and has given good service and who, on a contributory basis, has built up for himself something to keep him in his later years, is entitled to it. But why should people who are employees of a government have the taxpayers pay them so much a year for the rest of their life? Are there not many other people who are rendering service to the country? What about the professional men, men in the medical profession for example;

Supply-Auditor General's Office
are they not rendering service equal to or comparable with that of men employed by the government? Yet who provides for them if they do not themselves provide a competence for their old age? Probably they would have to apply to the government for an old age pension. I submit that these employees are fairly and generously dealt with and that in this particular case it would be an outrage on the public to give any man who had received a salary of $15,000 a year an annuity of $6,300 for the rest of his life.
I am sorry that after having been in this house for four or five years, I find myself not in accord with the views of the members of the government. But we have been told by the Minister of Finance that this is a matter of individual judgment. I propose to exercise my individual judgment on this matter, and if it comes to a vote I shall vote against the additional allowance.


Thomas Vien: It might be useful to remind hon. members that acrimonious debates have taken place in this house with respect to salaries of the judges of Canada. These salaries do not compare favourably with salaries paid to judges of similar courts in Great Britain or the United States. Many eminent lawyers have refused appointments to our high courts, because of the inadequate compensation provided for in the law. Before begrudging the salaries paid to our judges, one should remember that these gentlemen are entrusted with our lives, our property and freedom. It is essential that the best talents be attracted to the bench. How could you do so with the meagre salary which does not equal one-half or one-fourth of the salary which eminent counsel could command, when, in their own professional practice, they can earn from $30,000 to $100,000 a year.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: If they work for the government.


Thomas Vien: My point is that if you do not pay to judges of the high courts a salary that will attract the best lawyers you will get appointees of inferior quality. And yet in their hands you confide your life, your property and your freedom.


James Joseph McCann: Is the gentleman in question a lawyer?


Thomas Vien: No.


James Joseph McCann: Then what is the point of the argument?


Thomas Vien: I am drawing a parallel between judges of the high courts and the auditor general of Canada. The auditor general reports to parliament; he does so over and above 
the ministers of the crown. Every year, in the report of the auditor general, there is to be found independant criticism of the administration of departments. The correspondence exchanged between the departments and the auditor general on points in dispute is published in his report. Is it not extremely important for parliament and country that the auditor general be a man of the highest character? That was a decisive factor considered when the services of Mr. Gonthier were retained. Therefore, if a man is appointed to a position of such high standing, and appointed for life, how can he be treated as an ordinary civil servant? The compensation provided for him in the estimates is far from being adequate if you. want to do him justice.


James Joseph McCann: Had the gentleman in question a contract with the government?


Thomas Vien: He had.


James Joseph McCann: What was the nature of the contract?


Thomas Vien: Just the same as the supreme court judges.


James Joseph McCann: No.


Thomas Vien: My hon. friend says no. Let us compare the two cases. A lawyer is called to the supreme court bench; there is an order in council appointing him, and a statute fixing his compensation. The auditor general is appointed by order in council, he is called to be the auditor general. There is a statute, the Auditor General's Act, which provides for his salary. He is appointed for life and cannot be removed except by an address of both houses of parliament, like a judge of the supreme or exchequer court.


Grote Stirling: I have already asked for the order in council in question. It seems to me that would go a long way towards settling this matter.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: I have no desire to labour this point, but I should like to suggest that occupying ministerial positions in the government we have men who are making great sacrifices in the public interest, for whom no pension or superannuation provisions are made at all. Men occupying these positions have great demands made upon their resources by the public. I consider that the former auditor general has been well treated in the matter of his superannuation allowance, and I register my objection to this additional grant.


John Gordon Ross: I do not want to contribute to this debate at any length, but I think this affords an opportunity to discuss

Supply-Auditor General's Office
at least one principle that has come up during this discussion. That is the case of a man who is retired from the service because he has reached the age of seventy. Whether we have contracts or customs in regard to appointments for life or appointments which must be terminated on reaching a certain age, it is my opinion, as I think it is the opinion of most people in Canada, that no man in the government service should hold an appointment beyond the age of seventy, no matter what may be his position. I think it is about time we provided that every appointive position in Canada should become vacant when the person holding that position reaches the age of seventy, whether he be a senator or a judge or anything else; whether he be under contract for the balance of his life, and even though compensation must be paid.


Thomas Vien: I agree entirely with the hon. gentleman, with this qualification: when a gentleman is appointed for life, and then a statute is passed providing that in future there will be an age limit, that age limit should apply only to those appointed after such legislation was enacted.


Manley Justin Edwards: In connection with this matter one point is bothering me to which I think we should direct our attention instead of considering the general principle. If this gentleman was appointed for life, as has been suggested or alleged, then why and how did he avail himself of the provisions of the superannuation act? What was the necessity for it if he contemplated receiving this salary for life? It seems to me that the two positions are wholly irreconcilable. Either this man had a contract under which he would receive $15,000 a year for life, or he did not. The fact that he availed himself of the provisions of the superannuation act is at least to my mind, cogent evidence that he had no such contemplation when he was employed by this government.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Everything the deputy
speaker has said to-night has been a matter of comparison, and to me comparisons are odious in connection with the salaries and superannuations of civil servants. But we have thousands and tens of thousands of people raising families in this country and earning $15, $18 and $20 a week. These people have to pay the salary and superannuation of men like this. These are the things that are causing in this country a feeling of disrespect for and lack of confidence in government. There are men in this house, in this party and in the Liberal party, who protest against the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation, the communists and others going into politics.
They go into politics because of things like this, and I think it is about time we began to realize that the money to pay these high salaries and superannuations comes out of the small wage-earner of this country, who is not going to stand for it very much longer. Let this house set a precedent to-night and say we will not do this thing the government is asking us to do.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The hon. gentleman who is leading the opposition at the moment asked for the order in council. I have not the order in council here, but I asked for a memorandum concerning the statutes under which auditors general have been appointed, and my information is that from 1878 to the present time the statutes have provided that their appointment shall be during good behaviour, removable upon address of both houses of parliament. From that I would think it would follow that the actual terms of the order in council would be irrelevant, because the statute would govern. The order in council could contain only one provision; that is, it would be an appointment under the statute, for the tenure I have mentioned.


Grote Stirling: Does the minister know how this gentleman's predecessor was treated?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know the history
of the matter at all. With regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Calgary West (Mr. Edwards), I do not know why Mr. Gonthier availed himself of the provisions of the Civil Service Superannuation Act. I presume one reason would be that they applied to his case. Another would be that under that act he would receive certain protection against retirement by virtue of ill health or incapacity, and his dependents would also receive protection under it. Therefore it would not follow that it would be disadvantageous to him to make his payments under that act if he were appointed for life. The two are not inconsistent. I can imagine it being desirable from his point of view to make his payments under the Civil Service Superannuation Act, so that if he did retire through incapacity he would be pensionable under the provisions of that act, and if he died his dependents would also receive benefits.


Manley Justin Edwards: Are the judges or any
other employees of the government who are not civil servants in a position to avail them-* selves of the provisions of that act?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The judges are not.


Manley Justin Edwards: Or any other employees
of the government?

Supply-Auditor General's Office


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Not those in similar positions.


Thomas Vien: But it must be remembered
that in the Judges' Act there is a superannuation provision different from the Civil Service Superannuation Act.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: But they have not a
choice of coming under the Judges' Act or the Civil Service Superannuation Act.


Thomas Vien: The auditor general, not being a judge, had no choice but to take advantage of the superannuation act, of which the judges cannot avail themselves. They have an act of their own.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: I move, in amendment, that the amount of SI,500, as annuity for the former auditor general, be reduced to one dollar.


Grote Stirling: Are there any other
instances of retiring employees, who under the superannuation act have paid into this fund of superannuation, having been paid additional amounts to augment the amount of their pensions?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know about that.


Mr. RYAN:: I do not know anything about the agreement made with Mr. Gonthier, but I am very well acquainted with him. I knew what he was doing in Montreal as an auditor, when he was appointed by the government. I have known this man for years, and I am confident that if he had not thought he was being appointed for life he would never have accepted the position. I knew him well enough to know what he was earning in Montreal. He would never have taken a position where the government at any time could discharge him. I believe that this amount of $1,500 ought to be paid, in justice to this man, because I firmly believe he held the position with the thought that he had been appointed for life.


An hon. MEMBER:: Appointed at a salary of $7,000, and that salary continued for several years.


Robert Ryan: I believe firmly that Mr. Gonthier would not have accepted a position as Auditor General of Canada for $7,000 a year, because he was earning much more than that.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Then why did he accept the position?


Arza Clair Casselman: In order to have the record straight, on July 17, 1940, this question was asked in the House of Commons:
Have any other retired employees, under the superannuation act, been voted additional amounts?

The answer to that question was, no. That means that this vote we are now asked to pass to-night places this man in a position different from that of any other man who has ever been in the employ of the government of Canada and comes within the provisions of the superannuation act.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The ordinary person appointed to the civil service of Canada is appointed during pleasure.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: What is there so extraordinary about this appointment?


James Lorimer Ilsley: He was appointed during good behaviour.


Joseph Henry Harris: What is the difference between appointment during pleasure and appointment during good behaviour?


James Lorimer Ilsley: There is all the difference in the world. I will tell hon. members the difference, and illustrate by the experience of governments in England. One of the Stuart kings dismissed twelve judges because they were appointed during pleasure. He dismissed them because they gave judgments which did not appeal to him.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: That was in the time of the Stuarts; this is 1940.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That was the very thing which gave rise to the demand by the English people that the tenure of judges must be during good behaviour, so as to put them beyond the reach of governments, and thereby make them independent of governments.


The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Jean):: Does any other hon. member wish to speak on this item?


Gordon Timlin Purdy: Yesterday I received a letter from the Post Office Department stating that they must close certain post offices because they could not carry them on any longer. Last week I received a similar letter, and the week before a similar letter. The week before that, because they wanted to save expenses, they were going to close a mail route which served a large number of people. A day or so after that, they were going to close lighthouses because they did not have the money to carry on. Surely, if the government has not the money to carry on services for the good of the people in the rural districts, it cannot have the money to give an annuity of $1,500 to this man.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Before the vote is taken, I wish to repeat that every hon. member will act on his own responsibility in the matter. He is free to vote exactly as he pleases, without any intimation from anyone as to what he should do.

Supply-Finance


Joseph Jean: It is resolved that a sum not exceeding $2,083.33 be granted to bis majesty for the purpose set out in the item. It is now moved in amendment by the hon. member for Victoria, Ontario, that the amount of SI,500, as annuity for the former auditor general, be reduced to one dollar.
The question is on the amendment. In my opinion the ayes have it, and the amendment is carried.


Thomas Vien: Count the votes.


Joseph Jean: Those in favour of the amendment will please rise.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: This has been settled. The Chairman has given the results. The matter was settled, and the decision announced.


Joseph Jean: But an hon. member has asked for a standing vote.


Grote Stirling: Too long after the
announcement was made.


Thomas Vien: I am asking for a standing vote.


Thomas Bruce McNevin: I would point out that when a vote is demanded, five members must rise in their places. In this instance they did not rise.


Thomas Vien: No, that is not the rule in committee. In committee the vote is taken by a standing vote. And I am asking that this Vote be taken by a standing vote.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: It seems to me that the decisions in committee depend entirely upon whether or not the chairman of committees is in the chair or whether he is sitting as a private member of the house.


Thomas Vien: When the chairman of committees says, "In my opinion the ayes have it", any member of the committee may ask for a standing vote. I am asking for that standing vote.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: And you will get it.


Grote Stirling: What is before the chair?


Thomas Vien: Those in favour will stand.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Who is running the committee, anyway?


Joseph Jean: After a decision being made by the chairman of the committee, I believe it is the right of any hon. member to ask for a standing vote. I believe some hon. members in the corn-95826-164
mittee would like to have a standing vote. Therefore I ask those in favour of the amendment please to rise.
Amendment agreed to: Yeas, 36; nays, 27. Item as amended agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
52. Departmental administration, $286,590.
Grote Stirling: I believe the Minister of Finance is the member of the government responsible for operations under the foreign exchange control board. I would draw the attention of the minister and the committee to the utter inequality in connection with the findings of that board.
In the morning issue of the Ottawa Journal there appears a reference to an article which appeared in the Windsor Star and which I shall paraphrase shortly. It refers to the fact that the federal exchange control board objects to citizens of Windsor going across to Detroit to see the Tigers play the New York Yankees, while citizens of Toronto are permitted to send their money to the United States to pay for watermelons, peaches, plums, grapes, et cetera. We have made several attempts to impress upon the government the extreme situation which results from the findings of the foreign exchange control board. Our expenditures are curbed if we want to go to the United States, or if we want to pass through that country en route from one point in Canada to another. Enormous sums of money are being used for the purchase of perishable products produced in the United States, when the same products are produced in Canada and available for sale. I have not dealt to any extent with my own province, but the minister knows that the constituency which I represent takes in the Okanagan and other valleys in which these fruits are produced. I received a letter to-day which I should like to place upon the record. It is from the Southern Cooperative Exchange, dated July 30, 1940, addressed to myself, and reads:
We, a group of fruit growers, are much exercised about the present state of the peach deal in -western Canada.
Our sales office, the British Columbia Tree Fruits Limited, of Kelowna, B.C., informs us that there were twenty-five (25) cars of American peaches in Winnipeg over the week-end, and that they are excluding our produce from the market, practically altogether, as far west as Regina.
Also, in Vancouver, there are truck loads of American peaches coming in and retailing at prices that we consider would be less than the cost of production to us, if we have to meet the competition.
We are convinced that the American producers, etc., only consider the Canadian markets as a dump market, and anything that they can

Supply-Finance

get from it is something salvaged, and also a help to maintain better prices on their domestic market. So, naturally, we feel that it is very unfair competition, and as a consequence we should have protection.
We are to-day at war with an enemy that is going to take all of our resources to defeat. We listen to various speakers, and read articles in the newspapers all exhorting us to do our utmost in the effort to win this war, by buying war savings certificates, and by giving to a dozen different war efforts.
The allowing of wholesale fruit importations on to the Canadian markets, when Canada, herself, can supply it, seems to be inconsistent with the national policy of conserving national dollars.
We are all willing and anxious to do all of the things requested of us to aid in the national war effort, but how can we if we do not receive better than cost of production for our produce?
We, as private citizens, are not allowed to buy outside of Canada without going through a lot of red tape, yet big importers seem to have no difficulty. We are asked to be patriotic, and save our foreign exchange for the purchase of war supplies. Why doesn't this apply to the big importer, and if he is not willing to cooperate, why isn't he forced to do so?
We are as loyal and patriotic a group of growers as there is in Canada and are willing to do our bit at all times, but we would feel better about it if we had the protection of our markets by the government, and could feel assured that others were doing their bit also and not being allowed to exploit a situation to their personal advantage with possible harm to the general national effort.
We trust that this will meet with your immediate attention, that the situation win be thoroughly investigated, and all that is possible will be done to bring this situation to a more satisfactory standing.
There is only one reason I can think of why the foreign exchange control board, guided as it must be by government policy, should make these findings in connection with foreign exchange. The Canada-United States trade agreement contains a clause having to do with the operation of the treaty should either country be engaged in hostilities or war. It seems to me that if it saw fit, the government could prevent this stream of stuff from coming in to compete with our Canadian production.


John Gordon Ross: What is the duty on peaches?


James Lorimer Ilsley: If my recollection is correct, the duty on the whole range of fruits and vegetables, with certain exceptions such as tomatoes which carry a specific duty, is ten per cent. I would point out that the fruits to which the hon. gentleman has referred really have a protection of about thirty per cent. There is the ten per cent regular duty, the ten per cent war exchange tax and the ten per cent exchange. In addition to that, in that part of the year when similar

fruits are available in Canada in commercial quantities, these fruits are subject to a value for duty purposes, which varies with the particular fruit. In some instances it runs quite high, so that the total protection is considerable for certain parts of the year. This year very low prices are prevailing in the United States, and there has been a substantial volume of importations into Canada despite the duties to which I have referred. Th'e government has given serious consideration to whether something should not be done. The treaty provision which the hon. gentleman has mentioned is an obvious one, but we cannot avail ourselves repeatedly of the war clause in that agreement and expect it to stand. If the agreement were destroyed, I think it would be unfortunate. The erection of a trade wall across this continent at this time would be undesirable, not only from a trade point of view but from other points of view as well.


Norman Jaques: I should like to direct attention to something which came to my notice to-day and which appeared in the Globe and Mail of Toronto in the August 5 issue. This reads:
Alas, the public, including some bankers and economists and even some mining engineers, is gullible and unconsciously and innocently helping this insidious German propaganda. I believe if the Canadian and American governments were to broadcast by radio the general remarks outlined in this article, especially the comparison with an average dwelling, that it would do much to counteract the foul German propaganda which is making the people believe that the gold reserves in the central banks of the world are just so much " dross."
It will be the job of bankers and business men to get the world back on a gold basis and assuredly this will happen all in good time after Herr Hitler and his fifth column have been silenced.
The inference there is that those who do not believe in the gold standard will be branded as fifth columnists. The boot is on the other foot. Had it not been for the gold standard, in all probability Herr Hitler would never have been heard of. I have good authority for saying that. I do not ask the committee to take my word on such a matter. I should like to read a short excerpt from a book of a most illustrious Liberal, none other than the Right Hon. David Lloyd George. In his book "The Truth About Reparations and War-Debts," he says this:
The draining away of the world's gold supplies has made gold scarce and dear-
I might say that the object of this article in the Globe and Mail is to prove that gold is both scarce and dear. Mr. Lloyd George says:
The draining away of the world's gold supplies has made gold scarce and dear, which

Supply-Finance
means that, by comparison with gold, all other property and goods have become cheap. The immense fall in the value of everything has bankrupted industry and finance. The money value (in gold) of investments, securities, stores, and the products of industry and agriculture has collapsed until it is no longer worth-while commercially to make things or grow them for sale. Hence the world to-day is faced with that industrial stagnation and financial bankruptcy of which I have given illustrations in my introductory chapter.
This book was published in 1932. Again, he says this:
Countries which were devastated and exhausted by the war and countries which on balance profited by the war are alike suffering, and they find that the tale of Midas ought to have taught them that gold is indigestible. It may be all right in the teeth of a nation, but it should not be allowed to travel any further.
I see a danger in articles of this kind. If those who are opposed to the gold standard are to be branded in the press as fifth columnists, there may be trouble ahead. I should like to tell the writer of this article and the editor of the paper that there were opponents of the gold standard before Hitler was born, and certainly before he was heard of.
In conclusion, may I ask the Minister of Finance if he can assure the committee that there are no financial limitations whatever on our war effort, and that the methods adopted to finance the war will not lead to such conditions as are described by Mr. Lloyd George in the book from which I have just read. Also, could he tell the committee briefly the purpose of the visit to this country of Sir Otto Niemeyer. According to the press, Sir Otto Niemeyer, accompanied by a large staff of assistants, came here a couple of weeks ago and intends to stay for some weeks or months. I understand that he is a director of the Bank of International Settlements, of which institution there are at the present time both German and Italian directors. I suppose that his visit has no connection with this article, which may or may not be inspired.
In this connection I might quote one further line from Mr. Lloyd George's book. Referring to Mr. Montagu Norman, who of course is governor of the Bank of England, of which Sir Otto Niemeyer is a director, and with regard to a trip which the Right Hon. Stanley Baldwin made with Mr. Montagu Norman to the United States in 1923 to open negotiations for the funding of the British debt, Mr. Lloyd George says:
It was a bad combination. No worse team could have been chosen. Mr. Montagu Norman is the high priest of the golden calf and -his main preoccupation was to keep his idol burnished and supreme in the Pantheon of commerce. In his honest view it was the only god to lead the nation out of the wilderness.
Would the minister tell us what is the mission of Sir Otto Niemeyer?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Sir Otto Niemeyer came to see the Bank of Canada, not the dominion government. I understand that he came for the purpose of discussion of some matters of interest to the two banks, that is the Bank of England and the Bank of Canada-probably matters relating to foreign exchange control.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General.
76. Unforeseen expenses, expenditure thereof to be subject to the approval of the treasury board, and a detailed statement to be laid before parliament within fifteen days of next session, $80,000.
John Horne Blackmore: Would it be in order, before the vote for the whole department is passed, to revert to one item which was passed before I was aware how rapidly they were being passed. I should like to discuss a matter which is appropriate to item 57, if it would not be entirely out of order. I was listening attentively, but I could not tell what numbers the chairman was calling.


Joseph Jean: The item under discussion is 76.


John Horne Blackmore: There is one matter I should like to discuss under item 57.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go ahead.


Thomas Vien: Very well.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Old age pensions (including pensions to the blind).
57. Old age pensions, including pensions to the blind, administration, $41,090.
John Horne Blackmore: Could the minister
give us any information about the petition which was presented on June 14, regarding old age pensions, by the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill), and signed by 57,409 petitioners from Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and British Columbia? Has any provision been made, or any action taken by the minister?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The petition was to lower the age at which persons would be eligible for old age pensions. Is that the petition to which the hon. member refers?


John Horne Blackmore: Yes.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The provision for old age pensions is based, as before, upon the seventy-year age. It is not felt this year, with all the financial demands there are upon the government, that we could lower the age limit to sixty or even to sixty-five. There are other
Supply-Finance

reasons as well, but the main one is that the provinces are primarily those who pay old age pensions and our agreements with the provinces are based upon the age of seventy. It would be necessary to get the provinces to agree to a lowering of the age, which would in turn throw a heavier financial burden upon the provinces if the present plan of division of expenses were continued. All factors considered, it was not felt that the government could comply with the prayer of the petition this year.


John Horne Blackmore: I appreciate the way in which the minister has dealt with the matter, and I grant that probably, as we see matters at'the present time, that is completely satisfactory; but just the same we have not taken care of people between the ages of sixty and seventy. With respect to the Department of Labour, I said a little while ago that there was no way in which a man of sixty could get a job, and I do not believe that one could find a firm from one end of Canada to the other who would take on a woman of sixty. If they cannot get work at sixty and cannot sell what they are able to produce, then they are in danger of starvation or of the greatest privation, and their only recourse is to go on relief. But we are cutting down relief all over the country. Look at the condition that these people will be in between the ages of sixty and seventy. It was consideration for this large group that prompted me to make the statement I did with respect to the civil service regulations. I am not making a suggestion to the minister, but I wonder if he could not work out with his colleague a plan whereby we could arrange for people of sixty or seventy to get work. A good many people will suffer terribly unless some measures are taken to help them, because they cannot help themselves. If the civil service will not take a man who is perfectly sound at sixty, how can one expect anyone else in the dominion to take him? We know that industry demands that a man shall be under forty-five years of age. Under these circumstances, if we do not make provision to bring the old age pension age down to sixty, we are practically condemning to shameful privation people between the ages of sixty and seventy. I merely wanted to point this out. I know the ministers are burdened with trials and anxieties, so much so that I marvel that they can keep their poise. But there is this difficulty which must be faced; otherwise the suffering will be a disgrace to the country and to all governments in power.


James Joseph McCann: I have always entertained the principle that pensions of any type should be on a contributory basis; and in view of the

fact that this house has passed an Unemployment Insurance Act on that basis, I wonder if the government has considered the proposal, which was put to the house at former sessions, of establishing a system of old age pensions on a contributory basis. All people at some time in their lives have some earning capacity. A good many people will not save a dollar of their own volition; and if they could be induced to put by a few dollars during their earning years, the government contributing in a like manner, then when they came to the age of sixty or sixty-five or seventy, a fund would have been built up whereby they could be given an old age pension. In my judgment, until that time comes, when there is some type of contributory pension fund for aged people, we are not going to be in a position financially to pay pensions to people under seventy years of age. The late Minister of Finance, Mr. Dunning, in discussing old age pensions, took kindly to the suggestion in that regard. These matters should not be dropped. They should be kept alive from year to year, and the sooner the government adopts as a part of its policy the building up of a contributory system of old age pensions, the sooner we shall have a solution of a pressing problem.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Everyone admits the desirability of establishing a system of contributory rather than non-contributory old age pensions if possible. The difficulties heretofore have been largely constitutional, and it was hoped, I think, that this would be one of the questions which would have been considered in connection with the Sirois report. A certain reallocation of powers will be necessary before a workable scheme can be adopted with regard to contributory old age pensions. If that were adopted, it might be possible to lower the age.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I express one hope in connection with what the hon. gentleman has been discussing. I trust the day will come when we shall have a social insurance plan broad enough to include old age, unemployment, invalidity, accident, health, all in one contributory scheme, whereby all those who contribute will be assisted in their efforts by the state and will be able to draw from a fund for any one of these purposes.


James Joseph McCann: That will be utopia.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not so sure that it is so remote. I hope the day will come, for it is something everyone will be pleased to have.

Supply Bill


John Horne Blackmore: Meanwhile the first task is to learn to put everyone to work at a reasonable income. Until we do that, it is idle to talk of old age insurance on a contributory basis.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the third time and concurred in.

James Lorimer Ilsley: That the reports of the committee of supply made to the house on June 3, 7, 24, 25, 26, July 15, 18, 31, August 5, less amounts voted in interim supply be now received, read a second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Vien in the chair.
James Lorimer Ilsley: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1941, the sums of $178,176,682.65 and $3,197,488, respectively be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Ilsley thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 124, for granting to his majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1941.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication:
Government House, Ottawa,
30th July, 1940.
Sir:-
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Hon. Sir Lyman P. Duff, G.C.M.G., acting as deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on this day the 7th of August, at 12.30 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. L. C. Pereira, Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I should like to express to hon. members the appreciation of my colleagues and myself for their courtesy in continuing to sit all this evening until this hour So as to enable the business of the house to be completed this morning. The business is now complete, and I move:
That when the house adjourns it stand adjourned until 12.15 o'clock p.m., to-day.
I might say that I understand the senate does not resume its sitting until twelve o'clock noon, at which time the supply bill will be considered in the other house. I imagine there will be no delay in its passage there, and I think that if hon. members reassemble here at 12.15 p.m. to receive the bill when it comes back from the other house, that will be the only business to-morrow until the royal assent takes place at 12.30 p.m.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the house adjourned at 1.28 aun.
Wednesday, August 7, 1940