1940-06-07

[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health) presented the report of the special committee appointed to prepare and report lists of members to compose the standing committees of the house, as follows:

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Abbott	Legcr	
Anderson	Mackenzie	(Vancouver
Bertrand (Laurier)	Centre)	
Diefenbaker	MacNicol	
Douglas (Weyburn)	McCuaig	
Factor	McDonald	(Pontiac)
Fair	Mills	
Fleming	Mutch	
Fournier (Hull)	O'Brien	
Gershaw	Pinard	
Gibson	Pouliot	
Gladstone	Power	
Gray	Roy	
Gregory	Tremblay	
Kirk	Weir-29.	
(Quorum 10)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Bertrand (Prescott)	Jutras
Bonnier	Lacombe
Casselman	LaCroix (Quebec-
(Edmonton East)	Montmorency)
Castleden	Lalonde
Chambers	Lapointe (Lotbiniej
Cleaver	Lockhart
Cloutier	Macdonald (Halifa:
Cote	Macdonald
d'Anjou	(Brantford City)
Donnelly	MacKenzie
Douglas (Queens)	(Lambton-ICent)
Durocher	McCann
Eudes	McGregor
Evans	Mcllraith
Gibson	Matthews
Gillis	Mayhew
Gladstone	Parent
Graham	Poirier
Green	Pottier
Hansell	Ross (St. Paul's)
Harris (Grey-Bruce)	Roy
Hazen	Senn
Healy	Stokes
Hlynka	Telford
Hoblitzell	V eniot
Howden	Wood-50.
(Quorum 15)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Black (Cumberland)	Johnston (London)
Blackmore	Kinky
Bercovitch	Lacroix (Beauce)
Blair	Laflamme
Casselman	Lapointe (Lotbiniere)
(Edmonton East)	Macdonald (Halifax)
Claxton	Macdonald
Cleaver	(Brantford City)
Coldwell	Macmillan
Donnelly	Marier
Dubuc	McGeer
Eudes	Mcllraith
F actor	McNevin
Fontaine	Martin
Fournier (Hull)	Maybank
Fraser (North-	Mayhew
umberland, Ont.)	Moore
F raser	Perley
(Peterborough West)	Picard
Graham	Quelch
Gray	Raymond
Hanson (York-Sunbury) Ross (St. Paul's)	
Harris (Danforth)	Slaght
Hazen	Thorson
Hill	Tucker
Jackman	Ward
Jean	Woodsworth-50.
(Quorum 15)	
PUBLIC .	ACCOUNTS
Messieurs:	
Abbott	Golding
Anderson	Grant
Authier	Graydon
Bercovitch	Henderson
Black (Yukon)	Homuth
Blanchette	Isnor
Bourget	Johnston (Bow River)
Brooks	Leader
Casselman (Grenville-	Maclnnis
Dundas)	Marshall
Casselman	McCubbin
(Edmonton East)	McDonald (Pontiac)
Church	McGeer
Clark	Mclvor
Cote	Mullins
Cruickshank	Mulock
Desmond	Purdy
Ferland	Rickard
Fleming	Roebuck
Fontaine	Ross (Hamilton East)
Fournier (Hull)	Slaght
Fournier (Maisonneuve	- Thorson
Rosemont)	Tremblay
Fraser (North-	Tripp
umberland, Ont.)	Veniot
Fulford	Winkler
Gladstone	Wright-50
(Quorum 15)
STANDING ORDERS Messieurs:
Bertrand (Prescott)
Brunelle Cockeram Denis
Douglas (Weyburn)
Edwards Golding Graydon J aques
MacLean (Cape Breton Sylvestre-20. North-Victoria)
(Quorum 8)
Marier
Marshal)
McGibbon
McLarty
McLean (SimcoeEast)
O'Neill
Rennie
Ross (Moose Jaw) Stokes
Standing Committees,

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Bertrand (Laurier)
Bertrand (Terrebonne)
Black (Cumberland)
Bourget
Chevrier
Corman
Cote
Crerar
Damude
Douglas (Queens) Dupuis Emmerson Eudes Factor Farquhar
Little
Lizotte
Lockhart
Maclnnis
MacKinnon
(Kootenay East) MacNicol Maybank McCulloch Melvor
McKinnon (Kenora-Rainy River) McNiven Mills Mullins
Fournier (Maisonneuve-Nicholson Rosemont)	Nielsen (Mrs.)
Fulford Gingues Gregory
Hanson (Skeena)
Harris (Danforth)
Hatfield
Healy
Howden
Howe
Isnor
Jackman
Jaques
Jean
Johnston (London) LaOroix (Quebec-Mcntmorency)
Nixon O'Brien O'Neill Pickard Pouliot Roebuck
Ross (Moose Jaw) Ross (Calgary East) Ross (Souris)
Shaw
Sissons
Turner
White
Whitman-60.
(Quorum 10)
AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION Messieurs:
Authier Aylesworth Black (Chateauguay-Huntingdon)
Blair
Cardiff
Clark
Cruickshank
Davidson
Dechene
Desmond
Diefenbaker
Donnelly
Douglas (Weyburn)
Douglas (Queens)
Dupuis
Fair
Ferron
Fontaine
Gardiner
Gershaw
Golding
Halle
Harris (Grey-Bruce)
Hatfield
Henderson
Jutras
Kirk
Lafontaine
Lalonde
Lapointe (Lotbiniere) Leader
Leclerc
Leger
Lizotte
MaeDiarmid
MacGarry
MacKenzie
(Lambton-Kent) Matthews McCuaig McCubbin McNevin Mullins Nielsen (Mrs.) Perley Poirier Quelch Rennie Rheaume Rickard Ross (Souris)
Ross (Middlesex East)
Rowe
Senn
Soper
Sylvestre
Tomlinson
Turgeon
Tustin
Weir
Wright-60.
(Quorum 20) [DOT] 
	PRINTING
	Messieurs:
Bereovitch	Healy
Bertrand (Terrebonne) Hlynka	
Blanchette	Hurtubise
Bourget	Kuhl
Casselman	Leader
(Grenville-Dundas) MaeDiarmid	
Castleden	MacKinnon
Chambers	(Kootenay East)
Chevrier	MacLean (Cape Bi
Claxton	N orth-Y ictoria)
Cloutier	McGregor
Corman	McNevin
Damude	Mills [DOT]
Denis	Moore
Dubois	Mulock
Durocher	Nicholson
Edwards	Purdy
Emmerson	Rheaump
Esling	Ross (St. Paul's)
Evans	Sinclair
Ferland	Sissons
Fleming	. Soper
Fraser	Tucker
(Peterborough West) Tustin	
I' urniss	Weir
Goulet	White
Grant	Whitman
Green	Winkler
Halle	Wood-54.

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Bradette
Brooks
Brunelle
Crete
Dechene
Deslauriers
Farquhar
Ferron
Gauthier
Gillis
Green
Hanson (Skeena)
Hazen
Kinley
Kuhl
Lapointe (Matapedia-Matane)
Leduc
Maclnnis
MacKenzie (Neepawa)
Macmillan
McCann
McLean (SimcoeEast)
Neill
Pottier
Reid
Roy
Ryan
Stirling
Telford
Tomlinson
Tripp
Tustin
Veniot
Ward
Warren-35.
(Quorum 10)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Adamson
Authier
Black (Yukon)
Bradette
Brooks
Cockeram
Crerar
d'Anjou
Edwards
Esling
Evans
Furniss
Grant
Hansell
Hill
Hurtubise
Johnston (Bow River) Lacroix (Beauce)
Lafontaine Leduc Little MacNicol McCann McCulloch McDonald (Pontiac) McKinnon (Kenora-Rainy River) Nielsen (Mrs.) Parent Sanderson Sinclair Sylvestre Tremblay Tripp Turner Warren-35.
(Quorum 10)

Industry and the War
Blanchette
Claxton
Esling
Hlynka
Pinard
Pouliot
[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Ross (Middlesex East)
Ross (Moose Jaw)
Rowe
Shaw
Sinclair
Ward-12.
(Quorum 7)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
MacGarry Maclnnis
MacKenzie (Neepawa) Macmillan MacNicol Massey McCann McNiven Fournier (Maisonneuve-Mutch
Rosemont)	Neill
Gingues	Nixon
Goulet	Roebuck
Hanson (Skeena)	Ross (Calgary East)
Hoblitzell	Ross (Hamilton East)
Homuth	Sanderson
Jean	Slaght
Laflamme	Stirling
Leger	Turgeon-35.
(Quorum 10)	
LIBRARY OF	PARLIAMENT
Messieurs:	
Adamson	Lizottc
Ayleswortb	Macdonald (Halifax)
Blanchette	MacKenzie (Neepawa)
Bruce	MacKenzie
Cardiff	(Lambton-Kent)
Casselman	Macmillan
(Grenville-Dundas)	Marier
Castleden	Martin
Cote	Mayhew
Emmerson	Moore
Eudes	Poirier
Farquhar	Pouliot
Fontaine	Purdy
Fournier (Maison-	Raymond
neu ve-Rosemont)	Reid
Gershaw	Rickard
Goulet	Rogers
Graham	Ross (St. Paul's)
Green	Sliaw
Henderson	Telford
Howden	Winkler
Hurtubise	Wood
Jaques	Woodswortli-44.
Jean	
Mr. MACKENZIE	1 (Vancouver Centre) moved that the report be concurred in.	
Motion agreed to.
Abbott
Blaekmore
Bruce
Church
Cote
Dubuc
Deslauriers
Eudes

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That the standing committees of this house shall severally be empowered to examine and inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the house and to report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon, with power to send for persons, papers and records.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
REFERENCE TO PROPOSED ADVISORY COMMITTEE-[DOT]

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. R. B. HANSON (Leader of the Opposition) :: Mr. Speaker, on the 23rd of February last the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), in his third broadcast in the election campaign, is reported to have made this statement:
With the war and its problems growing in intensity and magnitude, I shall seek, if we are returned to power, to bring to the aid of the ministry, in an advisory capacity, a still larger number of men of outstanding ability and experience whose services in one way or another might be made available to the state, and add strength to the administration of our policies. How best their services might be consolidated and used, whether in an immediate association with the war cabinet, or with a member of the cabinet, intimately associated with its war activities, is something that I would like to consider with my colleagues before the next parliament reassembles.
This was an important statement. It will be noted that these men of outstanding ability and experience were to be brought in to the aid of the ministry in an advisory capacity, and are to be distinguished from those already or afterwards brought in as administrators or executives. Nothing happened, and more than three months passed, when, on the 31st day of May last, at Winnipeg, the Canadian Manufacturers association issued a statement expressing "a deep-rooted conviction"-
. . . that there exist some definite causes that are responsible for Canadian plants receiving orders for only a small percentage of their capacity, and respectfully urges the Canadian government to send governmental ministerial representatives to England to clear away misunderstandings presently existing, in order that Canadian industry may be speeded up immediately and take its full share in the defence of our empire and country.
That statement gave expression to two or more important ideas:
(a)	That Canadian industrial plants were not being utilized except in a small degree;
(b)	That immediate action as indicated should be taken to speed up production in Canadian industry in order that it might take its full share in the defence of the empire and country.
From a press report it would appear that yesterday, June 6, thirty members of the Canadian Manufacturers association had a two-hour discussion with the cabinet on this important matter, but no word was given out beyond this, that the conference had been mutually helpful-which sounds like the Prime Minister, and does not mean much in the
60S
Industry and the War

way of concrete information to the public as to what is being done-so that Canadian industry may do its full part in contributing to empire and Canadian defence. In this morning's papers is an announcement, however, that "plans looking to a more complete mobilization and control of Canadian industry for war effort are being worked out by the government."
May I ask the Prime Minister to take the house and the country into his confidence and tell us:
1.	If it is the intention of the government to set up an advisory committee composed of men of outstanding ability and experience whose services might be made available to the state and thus add strength to the administration of our policies.
2.	Is this advisory committee not to propose new policies?
3.	What, if any, arrangements have been made with the committee of the Canadian Manufacturers association to further the objects of that association in speeding up and taking their full share in industrial activity for the defence of the empire and Canada?
And finally:
4.	While parliament is in session should not all such important announcements of policy and administration be made by the Prime Minister or by the appropriate member of the cabinet in the house?
I do respectfully protest that public announcement of policy in respect of matters of vital importance should be made here. Otherwise we shall be reduced to the status of rubber stamps.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have a fairly good memorj- but I doubt very much whether I can claim to be able to remember all that my hon. friend has read from the document he has before him.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Perhaps I should have sent it to the Prime Minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As my hon. friend has just mentioned, he did not favour me with notice in advance that he intended to bring up the matter to-da3'. However, may I say to him at once that I agree with his point of view regarding important announcements of public policy being made in the house, and that is one reason why I thought it well to give the press the abbreviated statement I did yesterday with respect to the interview that took place between members of the manufacturers association and the government. It leaves me free to make a statement now to the house for the first time as to what took place at the conference.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is what we want to hear.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I took occasion to ask the large representation of manufacturers who were present if they would like to have the press called in to the conference. It was intimated in reply that it would be preferable that the conference should be held within the confines of my office in the manner in which it was being conducted, and that the press be not invited to be present.
The conference was devoted to the consideration of a resolution passed at a recent meeting in Winnipeg of the manufacturers association. The conference was between members of the government and this large representative delegation. It was arranged at the earliest possible moment after the request for the conference had been made; and it was 1 think agreed by all at the conclusion of the meeting that it had been mutually helpful and eminently satisfactory. One of the subjects brought up was the question of sending to the old country some member of the ministry and, possibly, delegates from the manufacturers association who might while there endeavour to clear up any misunderstandings-I believe that was the word-which might exist with respect to the desire of the government of Canada to have as much manufacturing done in this country as possible as a result of orders which might be placed here from Great Britain. The members of the association were given information by different members of the government as to the steps that had all along been taken fully to advise the British government of Canada's industrial capacity and of the desire both of the government and of the manufacturers to cooperate in every way in taking the fullest advantage of that capacity to fill orders for the British government; of the many representations that had been made by ministers of the crown in telegrams and in other ways to the British government with respect to possible orders that might be placed here; etcetera, etcetera. At the end of the discussion of that point it was suggested that perhaps a better way of effecting what was desired would be to have Mr. Massey, the High Commissioner in London, immediately bring to the attention of the British government the fact that representatives of the manufacturers association and members of the government had met together, had discussed the question of orders that might be placed in Canada, and that he should press upon the British government, particularly the departments of that government which would have to do with matters of the kind, the earnest desire, both of the government of Canada

Industry and the War
and of the manufacturers, to have such business placed as quickly as possible and, to as large an extent as possible. I believe it was felt that that method of making the presentation would be better than sending over another minister of the crown, to be accompanied by representatives of the manufacturers association.
The members of the delegation were surprised, I think, to learn of the many representations that had been made by different members of the government, and by others authorized by the government to make them, to the British government regarding our desire to obtain such orders as might be placed here, and our ability to fill them.
The other question discussed at some length was that of having some outstanding industrialist placed in a position where he could help to supervise production being carried on in Canada, particularly the class of supplies that come under the direction of the Minister of Munitions and Supply. I doubt whether, at the time the representations were made, the gentlemen who were making them had any idea of the extent to which leading industrialists and businessmen in Canada had already been drafted into the service of the government in connection with the production of munitions and supplies. The representatives were told of what had been done in that regard, and the offer was made immediately by my friend and colleague, the Minister of Munitions and Supply, that if the members of the delegation had any one to suggest in whom they would have more confidence than those already engaged in that capacity, and would submit his name, the minister would immediately see that he was taken on to assist in the supervision of the production of munitions and supplies in his department.
With regard to what I said in the course of the recent campaign, my hon. friend has quoted me correctly. I did say, with respect to what might be best in the connection mentioned, that I would wish to confer with my colleagues in the government and take the steps that seemed advisable. We have been most successful not only in bringing, in an advisory capacity, many of the leading industrialists and business men in Canada into the departments concerned with the speeding up of Canada's war effort, but we have been doubly fortunate in securing the services, in a good many instances without remuneration, of some of those gentlemen to assist from day to day in the work of actual administration of the departments concerned. I need not mention individual names though I might perhaps mention one as an illustration. In the Department of National Defence for Air, as my hon. friend knows, we were successful in 95826-39
obtaining the services of Mr. James Duncan, an exceptionally able business executive, who is giving his services to the country without remuneration, not only giving the benefit of his advice on many matters on which we have had occasion to consult him but also giving his entire time to the work of the air ministry as acting deputy minister. In the Department of Munitions and Supply the minister has been fortunate in drafting into that department some dozen, I think I am right in saying-


Mr. HOWE:: Some eighteen or twenty.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: -eighteen or twenty, as my hon. friend tells me, leading industrialists or business men who are giving the benefit of their counsel and advice to him, and through him to the government, and not only that but are actively participating in the work of the direction of production of supplies with which that department is engaged. I might mention other cases in other departments, but I hope I have illustrated in a general way the method by which the government have been seeking to implement, if not in whole, in part at least, the undertaking which I gave during the recent general election campaign.
There are times and seasons for all things. The government is by no means relaxing its efforts to secure the right persons to assist in war work. Whether or not, or just when, it may be best to have the ministry itself enlarged, is a matter still under consideration. But I can assure my hon. friend that it is one to which I am giving, in collaboration with my colleagues, the most careful consideration,


Richard Burpee Hanson: The Prime Minister overlooked the first part of my inquiry, in regard to the setting up of an advisory committee. Perhaps he will give further consideration to that.



STATEMENT AS TO PROPOSED CONFERENCE WITH LABOUR ORGANIZATIONS

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):: In view of the statement of the Prime Minister in regard to consultations with leading industrialists, will he inform the house whether the heads of the central labour organizations have been invited in for similar consultations?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am glad to be able to tell my hon. friend that immediately after yesterday's conference I gave instructions to arrange a similar conference next

United States Visa Laic

week with representative labour organizations. The Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) some time ago had this in mind and has been seeing representative heads of the different organizations for purposes of consultation.



UNITED STATES VISA LAW


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to call the attention
of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to a press report from Washington under yesterday's date, to which no doubt his attention has been directed as Secretaiy of State for External Affairs, that the state department of the United States government has announced that after July 1 passports and visas will be required from Canadians and others desiring to visit the United States.
I do not for a moment question the validity of such action, but in view of it I would ask whether the government of Canada have taken or propose to take similar action requiring passports from citizens and residents of the United States and citizens of other countries on this hemisphere wishing to visit Canada? I make this request because I am aware that there are in the United States many persons, members of the so-called German bund, who may come to Canada for purposes beyond those of mere tourists, and whose presence in Canada at this time would be wholly undesirable.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I anticipated that some hon. member might ask a question on this matter, and I am glad the hon. leader of the opposition has asked the question. The laws and regulations of the United States, as I think my hon. friend is fully aware, require that persons entering the United States from most countries must have a passport, bearing a visa signed by a consul, before they are permitted to enter the United States. There have been exceptions to that requirement in the case of Canada and central American countries, also I think in the case of the West Indies and Bermuda. However, under this latest regulation the exemption is now removed and all persons going into the United States after July 1 will be obliged to have a passport and visa.
The executive order which has now been issued is in part general in its terms. It provides that aliens desiring to come to the United States temporarily must establish a legitimate purpose or reasonable need for their presence in the United States, and must

establish also that they will depart from the United States at the conclusion of their stay. They must also present conclusive evidence that they will be admitted to the country of their nationality or some other foreign country to which they intend to return or proceed after departing from the United States.
The executive order also provides for the suspension on and after July 1, 1940, of the exemption from passport and visa requirements which was previously extended to citizens of Canada, Newfoundland, St. Pierre-Miquelon, Mexico, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic. Panama, Bermuda and the British, French and Netherlands West Indies. It has further been announced that different regulations will be established with respect to persons who have entered the United States for permanent residence on immigration visas and who may be returning from a temporary absence abroad. No additional documentation will be required from United States citizens proceeding to or returning from the territories mentioned.
Our government has already made representations to the government of the United States on this matter, and we shall continue to take up within the next day or two the different questions that are likely to arise out of this new order. I cannot at the moment indicate just what is in the mind of the government with respect to passports as between Canada and the United States, but I would say to my hon. friend that he need not be surprised if, following a tradition which is well known, at least to the party on this side of the house, something in the nature of reciprocity should it serve Canadian interests, might be considered in relation to passport requirements.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I hope the Prime Minister will do so in this case, because it is a matter which especially affects those of us who live in western New Brunswick, as in order to get to Ottawa we have to travel through the United States, or else spend a whole day of further travel to go by the all-Canadian route. I have lived alongside the United States border all my life, I have been accustomed to go back and forth as and when I pleased. If the Canadian government can make any arrangement with the United States government for the passage of through passengers between Montreal and New Brunswick I personally shall be greatly obliged.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is questions of just that kind that will be carefully considered between the legations. As far as my hon. friend is concerned I can promise him that we will do the best we can to get him a pass.

Foreign Exchange-France and Canada



CANADIAN ACTIVE SERVICE FORCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): On Monday last in answer to a question I stated that the Canadian government had indicated its readiness to provide both railway and forestry troops to the United Kingdom. I may say now that, pending information which the army council through the war office is sending us regarding the types of such units which would be most useful at this time, authority has been given to enlist a number of specialists for service with the British forces and to recruit four forestry companies and four railway construction companies for service overseas.
Richard Burpee Hanson: That is good; we are getting action at last.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. D. G. ROSS (St. Paul's):: I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Will the minister table forthwith the record and form of questionnaire referred to by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Chambers) when he stated yesterday, as reported on page 564 of Hansard, that the advisory committee of which he was a member sent out questionnaires to almost every manufacturer in business right across Canada asking, in effect, if they anticipated a shortage of skilled labour, and if something should be done about it, and their replies; asking in effect whether the training should be done by the manufacturers or by the government of Canada, and their replies. It was stated by the hon. member that this is a matter of record. If so, will the minister table forthwith this record and report?


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Minister of Labour):: My impression is that the information which the hon. member has requested is contained in an appendix to the report of the national employment commission. However, I shall be glad to look into it, and if it is not there I shall be glad to table a copy of any such questionnaire.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon. member for Nanaimo said it had not been tabled.
95826-39J


Norman Alexander McLarty: I think the appendix to the report of the national employment commission, contains the questionnaire and the results of the questionnaire, though I have not checked it up. If that is not so I shall be glad indeed to table a copy of it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: We want to know where to find it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Yesterday when
the hon. member referred to the replies he said they were composite replies to these questionnaires. I should like to have something more than simply what the composite replies were, if we could have that information tabled.



FOREIGN EXCHANGE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Following the practice my hon. friend has correctly emphasized, of making important announcements in the first instance in the House of Commons, I should like to make a brief statement as to an agreement respecting payments between Canada and France which was effected yesterday by an exchange of notes with the new French minister, M. Ristelhueber. An immediate effect of the agreement, which is in force from the date of signature, is the stabilization of the rate of exchange between Canada and Fiance, with a view to promoting trade between the two countries under war conditions. The agreement provides, within certain limits, for accumulation of French francs by Canada, and for orderly repatriation of Canadian securities now held in France. Both these measures will provide France with the means of making additional war purchases in Canada. The agreement is for an indefinite period but may be terminated by either country on three months' notice. The provisions affecting private individuals or firms in Canada are summarized as follows:
(1)	Payments by a resident of Canada to a resident of France or the French empire may be made only in Canadian dollars or French francs.
(2)	Where payments are made in French francs, these francs must be obtained through the Foreign Exchange Control Board. In other words they cannot be acquired in a third country.
(3)	The Foreign Exchange Control Board will fix an official rate for French francs.
The foreign exchange control board may be expected to acquire French francs as a result of payments by residents of France or
612	COMMONS
Foreign Exchange-France and Canada
the French empire to residents of Canada. The agreement provides that these francs cannot be sold in, or used for payments to, a third country. Any net accumulation of French francs by the foreign exchange control board under the agreement will be guaranteed against depreciation of that currency and a similar guarantee is given to France against depreciation of the Canadian dollar. The agreement also provides that the foreign exchange control board will, within certain defined limits, authorize the orderly liquidation in Canada of Canadian securities now owned by residents of France.



REPATRIATION OF CANADIAN SECURITIES HELD IN FRANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):: Has the government any estimate as to the extent of the securities now held in France which may be repatriated in Canada? I think that is rather an important matter upon which the house should receive some information.


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of Finance):: I think probably the house would be more interested in the amount which is to be repatriated, but at the moment I think I can only say that, as has been indicated, it is to be an orderly repatriation of so much within a certain period. I should prefer not to give the amount. As a matter of fact we have a very general estimate of the amount of Canadian securities held in France. My hon. friend can understand that under present- conditions it is difficult to get anything that is at all accurate.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to say that in my opinion the minister is absolutely right and that the amount should not be divulged. It is private business.



MARKETING OF WHEAT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: Will the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) inform the house who is acting in Canada for the cereals import committee of the United Kingdom? Would he also tell the house whether James R. Murray of Winnipeg has been acting in any advisory capacity to the wheat board or to the government? While he is on his feet he might also tell the house whether he proposes to appoint the advisory
{Mr. Mackenzie King.]
committee to the wheat board which was definitely promised during the campaign by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) and by the minister's predecessor, Hon. Mr. Euler.


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I think I could answer the various questions just asked by the hon. member, but perhaps it would be better to give a prepared answer. Therefore I shall take this as a notice of question and reply at a later date.



VOLUNTEER CIVIL GUARDS


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On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: During the last week or ten days Toronto newspapers have been reporting the formation in various Ontario municipalities of units known as volunteer civil guards. Will the minister inform the house whether he has knowledge of such an organization and, if 60, whether his department has any connection with it or supervision or control over it?
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): The only guards for which the Department of National Defence has assumed responsibility at the present time are the units of the veterans home guard, as announced in this house some time ago. In addition, there will be reserve companies of veterans which will be attached to the nonpermanent active militia units for training purposes, but I think it is a well-established principle that the Department of National Defence can assume responsibility only for such units as are under military discipline and administration. The other organizations to which my hon. friend refers are entirely voluntary. The question as to whether they can be utilized for purposes of home defence is a matter that is receiving consideration at the present time.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Thursday, June 6, consideration in committee of the following resolution - Mr. McLarty - Mr. Fournier (Hull), in the chair:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide assistance in the alleviation of unemployment and agricultural distress out of moneys appropriated by parliament, and for such purpose to supplement the measures taken

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Brooks
by the provinces towards providing assistance to those in need, establishing unemployed persons in employment and training and fitting suitable persons for productive occupation, and also to provide financial assistance to the provinces by way of loan, advance or guarantees out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund, and for the appointment of necessary officers, clerks and employees.
Mr. BROOKS:: Last night when the house rose at six o'clock I was discussing this resolution, and had referred particularly to appendix "C" of the Hereford report, respecting statistics of training and enrolment of trainees for the national forestry programme. I had pointed out that of the total of 309 trainees enrolled in New Brunswick, eighty had found employment. I was going on to say that the cost of training in that province had totalled $38,525, which, to me, seemed out of all proportion to the benefits which had been derived. I had also pointed out the unfair methods of selection for enrolment in this, and I believe in every other scheme which had been carried out by the New Brunswick government.
I do not wish to dwell at greater length on this matter, but I would recommend to the Minister of Labour that if any further relief is necessary, or if money is voted for relief projects in New Brunswick, the federal government, and particularly the department over which the minister presides, should exercise more care in respect to any expenditures which may be made in that province. I would recommend that he see to it that moneys are more equitably distributed among those who are in need. In my opinion this could be done through the federal government, or possibly through the municipalities. From what I have seen of the Minister of Labour since he took office, and in fact during the whole of the last five years, I have great faith in his fairness in the administration of his department. I believe the people of New Brunswick would have more faith in the distribution of these moneys by the federal department of labour than in any distribution which might be made by local governments.
Last night I spoke respecting contracts which have been let throughout Canada. I am sorry the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) is not in his seat at the moment, but in his absence may I commend his department, or whoever has been responsible for the release, through the office of the director of public information, of the document I have in my hand. It indicates to me, as it must to people throughout Canada, that there is now action in the Department of Munitions and Supply.
But there is one thing absent from the report, and that is any indication of great activity in the province from which I come. The release is thirty pages in length, and
looking through those thirty pages, although I find details respecting the expenditure of many millions of dollars-in one week the amount was something like $15,000,000, and it is indicated in the press that something over [DOT]SI 250,000 is being spent daily-the only amount over $5,000 I can find as having been spent in New Brunswick is an item of $8,577.21 in connection with a shipbuilding contract given to the St. John Dry Dock and Shipbuilding Company of St. John. The other day when I mentioned this matter the Minister of Munitions and Supply stated that he was interested in getting results and getting them quickly. With that attitude I heartily agree. But it does occur to me, as I am sure it must to many other persons, that possibly because the city of Ottawa is in Ontario and closely adjoins Quebec, and because the industrial centres of Toronto and Montreal have easy access to departments at Ottawa, some preference may be given to those larger centres, with the result that outlying districts are overlooked.
I do not wish the Minister of Munitions and Supply in any way to impair his war activities, but I would ask him to consider carefully the possibility of giving equal opportunities to all sections of the country in the providing of munitions of war and necessary equipment.' As I said yesterday, all parts of Canada are given equal opportunity to provide soldiers, and we should all be given equal opportunity to provide munitions and equipment. I believe action along that line would tend to bring about in greater degree that unity in Canada of which we have heard so much in the last few years.
With regard to unity, I would say that in listening to the debates which have taken place in the house during the last four or five years it has occurred to me not once, but time and again, that this so-called unity of Canada has been stressed to the detriment of that greater unity-the unity of the British empire. The results of the last election have been held up to us as proof that Canada is a united country. I am not so sure of that, nor do I believe that the people of Canada are so sure of it to-day. Unity in a country is not judged by the froth of an election. Public opinion can be changed, and does change verv quickly, not only in Canada but in every other country. Governments come and go. But there is something deeper than all this: it is the unity which springs from the mutual suffering and sacrifice of a people, a sacrifice borne equally by all men and women, no matter in what part of the country they may live, no matter what their political affiliations, no matter what their race or creed. The only

Unemployment Reliej-Mr. Kuhl
real test of unity in this country is that every citizen of Canada, every man and every woman from the Atlantic or the Pacific, should bear his or her full share of the burden in the terrible stress under which Canada is now labouring.
Mr. W. F. KUHL (Jasper-Edson>: When in the light of this resolution one considers the untold misers' and suffering which a large proportion of the people of Canada have gone through in the last ten years he contemplates a situation sufficiently grave to cause him to weep. For ten long years the people of this great and potentially wealthy country have been crying out for bread, and here, in this resolution, they have another stone.
If we lived as long as Methuselah there might be some justification for our exercising a little patience in waiting for the vanishing *of poverty from our country. But since our life span is placed at a mere threescore years and ten it behooves us to make the most of every minute that we live. Those who have administered the affairs of this country for the last ten years are supposed to be of the same flesh and blood as the suffering multitudes of Canada, but when I look at the resolution before us I have a hard time convincing myself that such is the fact.
In view of the conditions obtaining in Canada to-day the resolution now before us is child's play. We are merely playing house when we endeavour to deal with a condition of unemployment and agricultural distress in the manner provided in the resolution. We ought to act as grown-up men and do really big things, rather than play and dillydally with this very urgent question. Poverty should have been banished from this country long ago. I wonder how long the devotees of orthodoxy intend to go on without changing their policy? Are we going to wait until infuriated and indignant people storm the doors of this parliament? How long are the common people to wait for poverty to be banished from this country?
I should like to advance this afternoon as briefly as I can two reasons for my belief that an orthodox government, be it Liberal or Conservative or what have you, can never deal effectively with the unemployment situation. This resolution implies that unemployment is not a permanent condition. I submit that there is every evidence that the condition of unemployment, the condition of being freed from nature forced labour is here to stay. The man hours required to produce any article are steadily decreasing. Those who support orthodox governments are attempting the mathematically impossible in trying to solve this
IMr. Brooks.]
problem. This is my first reason for believing that any orthodox government will never be able to deal effectively with this condition of unemployment. The rules, regulations and laws which have been enacted permit an individual, a company or a corporation to set up machines which take the place and do the work of anywhere from 100 to 1,000 men.
On the one hand orthodoxy is saying to the people: we shall put you out of work, we shall put in a machine which will do away with the necessity of human effort. On the other hand, orthodoxy is saying: you must work, we shall put you to work. It is an impossible task to put people to work when you are putting them out of work at a much faster rate. The substitution of machines for man-power, our technological advancement, is one phase of our unemployment problem which is not given sufficient attention. It is the most important factor which must be taken into consideration when dealing with unemployment.
I should like to place a few statistics on the record to indicate to those who say that we must put our people to work the extent of the task with which they are confronted. Anyone who has made the slightest investigation of technological advancement in industry will realize that the number of man hours used in industry is gradually on the decline. The number of man hours required to produce a unit of production is constantly decreasing; thus we have increasing hours of unemployment. I have a few figures to indicate the extent to which this has taken place in industry. No doubt this change will continue to take place to an even greater extent in the future.
The figures I have refer to United States industry. Unfortunately we have little in the way of statistics in connection with Canadian industry and must rely upon United States statistics. But the conditions in the two countries are parallel; what is true of United States industry is equally true of Canadian industry. The war is consuming tremendous amounts of iron and steel, so that statistics in connection with that industry will be in order. For those who contend that there are plenty of jobs available this information should be interesting. Most of the figures I am about to give are taken from a publication entitled "Technological Trends and National Policy," published by the national resources committee of the United States in June, 1937.
We are told that a hundred years ago one man could produce only twenty-five tons of pig iron in a year. To-day, with increased efficiency and a greater use of machinery, one man is able to produce 100,000 tons in a year. How are we going to find jobs for people

___________Unemployment Relief-Mr. Kuhl
in the iron and steel industry? We are informed also that to-day the iron and steel industry uses one ton of coal to carry on the operations that required three tons of coal only a few years ago. This means that more coal miners are being put out of work because of this advancement in production methods. A bolt making machine operated by one man and one boy can now do the work which previously required 6,000 men. This means a saving in wages of $85,000 per week. What are the putters-to-work going to do in the face of a situation like that?
In the automobile industry it took 250 men in 1930 to finish 100 automobile blocks; in 1935, nineteen men could do the same work in the same time-in a period of five years the number of men required for this operation decreased from 250 to 19. We are informed that the production in the Chevrolet foundry in Saginaw increased 290 per cent in ten years, while 13,872 men were eliminated. These figures indicate that required hours of labour are definitely on the decrease while the rate of production is steadily on the increase. One man with an acetylene torch for cutting steel can do work in one half hour which previously took thirty hours. A welding machine employing three men does the work which previously required 18. Examples such as these in the iron industry can be multiplied ad infinitum. I am putting on record just a few to indicate the principle involved.
Here are some figures in connection with coal production. How are we to put our miners to work when we are confronted with such a situation as this? A century ago twelve man hours were required to produce a ton of coal; to-day the same quantity can be produced in 1-33 man hours. Surface mining requires only a half man hour per ton. Under these circumstances where are we to find opportunities of work for our miners?
In these days we hear a good deal about the Red Cross. The women folk knit socks and other garments for the boys at the front. It is a worthy occupation and a patriotic one. But we are informed that to-day one knitting machine can make three million loops in the same time that the human hand can make three hundred. If our objective is to obtain socks and sweaters and whatever else is required in the way of knitted goods with the least possible effort and in the shortest possible time, the use of machines for this purpose would be far more economical.
As regards the electrical industry, we leam that in the past it required 710 men to make 40,000 electric light bulbs in one hour: to-day one man with a machine can produce the same number in the same time.
Figures in connection with agriculture are just as startling. I have not very many here. An outstanding example is the mechanical cotton picker. We in Canada are not directly concerned with cotton-picking, but I mention this machine to indicate what is going on in the agricultural world. The Rust Brothers' mechanical cotton picker does the work of 300 men, and we are informed that it is possible to manufacture one complete machine in nine minutes. That means that if these machines were produced continuously, 300 cotton pickers would be deprived of jobs every nine minutes.


Mr. GLADSTONE:: I wish to lodge an
objection to any discouragement of the women of Canada knitting socks for the boys at the front. It is common knowledge that the socks knitted by the women of Canada are retained by these boys, and washed, and washed again, because of the greater comfort in wearing them as contrasted with machine-made socks.


Mr. KUHL:: I am sure the hon. member
knows right well that there was no imputation or suggestion on my part that the women folk should be discouraged from doing this work. The hon. gentlemen is merely trying to make political capital. All I am endeavouring to indicate is what those who support orthodox policies, including the hon. member who has just spoken, are confronted with when they try to put people to work.
Just a few miscellaneous references to some small machines which, nevertheless, produce things which we use every day of our lives, and which have supplanted much of the human effort required in times past to produce these articles. One man with one bottle-making machine replaces 54 men; two men with one coal conveyor displace 50 men; one man with a glass-making machine replaces 20 men; one man with a cigarette-making machine replaces 100 men; one excavating machine does the work of 15,000 men. In 1901 one man could print a thousand letterheads in an hour; today one man can print 20,000 in the same time.
The principle of decreasing man hours per unit of production applies not only in the substitution of machines for physical effort, but in respect of work which requires mental effort. A bank clerk operating an automatic reckoner deals in an hour with 60,000 entries and displaces sixty other employees. One could multiply examples of this nature.
I have spoken of some of the devices which are in use at the present time. What would be the condition if industry were using those other inventions which have been acquired by monopolies and shelved because to utilize them would reduce profits? How many man



G16 COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Kuhl
hours would really be required to-day under those circumstances to produce our standard of living or a much higher standard? I venture to suggest that we should be very much astonished at the limited number of man hours which would be sufficient to provide us with the highest possible standard of living.
Figures in connection with power production are startling. Electrical power is one of the biggest agencies displacing human effort. A single turbine working twenty-four hours a day produces the equivalent of 9,000,000 manpower. Here are	some figures of production	
in 1929:		
	Horse-power	Man power
	(millions)	(millions)
Great Britain.. ..	.. 175	1,750U.SA	.. 704	7,040Germany	, .. 175	1,750France	.. 70	700Total.. ..	.. 1,124	11,240To divide that	man power, produced in	electrical energy,	equally among	the twothousand millions	of people in	the world
would provide approximately five mechanical power slaves for each man, woman and child. If we limit it to the countries named, it provides approximately forty mechanical slaves for every British citizen and approximately fifty for every United States citizen. Why all this talk about being obliged to keep our noses to the grindstone, seeing that we have approximately fifty mechanical slaves at our beck and call if we wish to employ them? And this applies only to existing production. How many more mechanical slaves would be available for the population of Canada as well as for every other country if advantage were taken of all the water power and the electrical energy that could be created?
To indicate the sum-total effect on our national economy I wish to put on record a table showing exactly what has happened in the major industries in the matter of employment-the number of man hours required for the output, and the output per man power. These statistics have reference to American industry, but the conditions that prevail there are largely those that prevail in Canada, so that our situation here is pretty well reflected in the tabulation. This is a comparison of two years, 1919 and 1936, and the index figure for the year 1929 is taken as 100. First I will give the figures of the percentage of

employment for the two years 1919 and 1936. The figures are as follows for the industries named:
Industry	1919	1936Agriculture	. 178	78Boots and shoes	. 104	97Sugar refining	. 130	93Chemicals	. 110	113Cotton goods	. 101	93Fertilizers	. 128	78Iron and steel	. 100	103Leather manufacturing. . .	. 145	103Pulp and paper	. 90	1(UCigarettes	. 136	115
Next we have a comparison of the number of man hours required in the total production in each of these industries in the years 1919 and 1936. The number of man hours is considerably less in 1936 than it was in 1919:
Industry	1919	1936Agriculture	175	62Boots and shoes	107	80Sugar refining	130	60Chemicals	115	90Cotton goods	100	73Fertilizers	130	62Iron and steel	121	78Leather manufacturing.. ..	148	87Pulp and paper	100	88Cigarettes	140	95The most important part	of this	table is
the output per man power, and again the
comparison is between 1919 and 1936.
Industry	1919	1936Agriculture	. 58	119Boots and shoes	. 83	139Sugar refining	. 65	140Chemicals	. 45	138Cotton goods	. 86	131Fertilizers	. 70	123Iron and steel	. 50	113Leather manufacturing.. .	. 71	128Pulp and paper	. 60	121Cigarettes	. 31	135
Another interesting comparison gives four figures in connection with the total number of man hours required to produce the total output of the United States. The total man hours required for total output in that country were, for the years indicated:
Years	Total man hours
1919	
28-17	billions1929	
22-74	"1935	
14-78	"1938 (less than)	
11-00	"
It will be seen that there was a drop from 28-17 billion in 1919 to less than 11 billion in 1938. That is a decrease of 68 per cent in total man hours required for the total production of the United States. At the same time as the man hours were being reduced the rate of production was increasing. Taking 1919 as 100, it was 160 per cent in 1929, though it went down to 121 per cent in 1935.
Figures of this kind can be multiplied indefinitely to show that it is mathematically

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Kuhl
impossible to put people to work under such conditions. I stated at the beginning of my remarks that I would advance two reasons for the belief that those who support orthodox methods will never be able to deal effectively with the unemployment situation. As the second reason for the statement that orthodoxy is unable to deal effectively with the condition I suggest that the orthodox economists base all their proposals on a false premise, namely, that the economic system exists to provide jobs. I submit that the economic system does not exist to provide jobs. What orthodoxy is trying to do, as I have already pointed out, is to put people out of work on the one hand and on the other to put others to work at the same time. In my opinion they can be justifiably accused of very gross inconsistency. If the object of the system is to provide jobs, let us do away with the machines which are doing the work. But orthodoxy says no. Well, you cannot have the machine and the jobs at the same time. You cannot eat your cake and have it as well. If we are to have the machine we must submit to unemployment and if we want jobs we must do arvay with the machinery and put everyone to work by the pick and shovel method.
The only commonsense objective of an economic system is to provide the maximum amount of goods and services with the minimum amount of work and trouble. Work as we ordinarily describe it is not an object but merely a means to an end, and that end is to produce an abundance. Man was created with intelligence and he has been using his intelligence to free himself from drudgery and to provide himself with more leisure. To suggest that man's activities should be summed up in the words "sleep, eat and work" is to suggest that he should live according to the standards of the animal kingdom. Man is worthy of a far nobler objective than merely to eat, sleep and work. Unemployment should not be looked upon as an evil, it should be a welcome thing. It is misnamed; it Should be described as leisure. Leisure is not a loafer's paradise; it is something which everyone strives for at some time in his life. Why do men in their youth and in their prime exert themselves to set aside all the purchasing power they can for their later years? Simply that they may have leisure-not a time in which they will loaf and bask in the sunshine but a time in which they can resort to voluntary activity, to cultural pursuits, music, art, literature, science, physical culture, all those phases of cultural activity in which people engage because they love to. All our citizens are entitled to leisure, but to be leisure it 95826-40
must be accompanied by security. What we need to-day is a more equitable division of the hours of labour and the hours of leisure, so that those who are obliged to render service are not exhausted at the end of the day's work, and those who have nothing but leisure are not demoralized.
The real problem that faces us is not one of finding jobs. I am quite prepared to concede that in time of war we must do everything possible to provide all the human energy necessary. But it is becoming apparent that, even with to-day's demand for man power, all the man power available is not required by Canada to carry on her part in in this war. We have observed that it is a mechanical war to a much greater degree than any war in the past. The real problem which the government has on its hands is not one of finding jobs, but one of seeing that the hours of labour and the hours of leisure are more equitably distributed so that we all have to do some of the necessary work, and also all have some of the leisure which the modem machine has provided. We ought to plan our system so that the highest possible standard of living shall be attained.
The second problem is that of devising a system of distributing the products of the machine-the abolition of poverty; that is the first job which the government should undertake. In season and out of season we have urged from our part of the house that this cannot be done through industry conducted in the present fashion. By that I mean that industry is not self-liquidating. The product of the machine cannot be distributed through the income which is received by those who take part in industrial activity. To-day there is far more generated in the way of prices than there is in income, and the difference can be met only by subsidizing the consumer to the extent of the difference between total income and total prices.
I observe that in the estimates the appropriation for public works for the coming year is reduced by around $17,000,000. If Canada's participation in the war requires the labour of people who would otherwise be working on public works and other public enterprises, then by all means we must see that their services are directed into Canada's war effort. But if their services are not required in that effort then I see no reason why we cannot carry on a public works programme as well as fight this war effectively. The only limit that there should be to doing anything in this country is the man hours and the materials available. The same idea applies to work in the parks, parks beautification, reforestation and other national projects; there is no
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61S
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Unemployment Relief-Mr. Kuhl
reason why these activities should be contracted in time of war if we have the materials and the man power available to carry them on. So far as these are required for carrying on the war let the other activities be discontinued, but otherwise why allow our people to perish for the want of something to do?
The hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) sarcastically suggested that we are advocating utopia. I find that the dictionary defines "utopia" as a state of perfection. We are not advocating a state of perfection; we simply say that whatever is physically possible and desirable should be made financially possible; that if the people of this country can furnish the man hours and the materials to provide a high standard of living, they should have it, and no man and no government should stand in their way.
One concluding word in regard to dealing with agricultural distress.
The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Fournier, Hull):: Order. I regret to have to inform the hon. member that he has spoken for forty minutes.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: If the committee will bear with me for just two minutes I will conclude.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: With regard to agricultural
distress, I feel-


Alphonse Fournier: The hon. gentleman may not proceed unless he has the unanimous consent of the committee.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: I think we had better let the hon. member conclude; otherwise he can sit down and then start all over again.


Walter Frederick Kuhl: Thank you. I will conclude quickly. I feel that there is a tendency on the part of some hon. members at least to look upon the aid which is given to agriculture as not being deserved by the agriculturists, as a handout, and to look upon agriculturists as objects of charity. That is not a right attitude. Any assistance given to agriculture is justly deserved. I consider it a primary duty of a government to do for its people what they cannot do for themselves. When any section of society cannot solve its problems for itself it is the duty of government on every occasion to step in and assist them in solving their problems. Otherwise what is the object of a government? I see no other purpose in having a government. That is what governments are for.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the government as well as my Conservative friends abandon their orthodox ideas in

endeavouring to solve our national problems and subscribe instead to policies which will really bring about the desired results. It is high time that the devotees of orthodoxy shelve their ideas in the museum of natural history, where they should have been placed a long time ago. Systems were made for men, not men for systems. Let us admit, as surely conditions have forced us to admit, that the old system can no longer deal effectively with our problems. Let us be frank about it, and let us change our system so that man may be permitted to live instead of merely exist.
Mr. J. R. MaeNICOL (Davenport):	In
dealing with this resolution concerning unemployment relief, it is not my intention to thresh old straw or to discuss whether or not previous bills founded on similar resolutions were sucessful. We have been told by various hon. members that the results achieved under previous bills were largely if not wholly unsatisfactory, but that is water which has passed through the mill. In my judgment we should be looking forward now and realizing the conditions that this country and the empire are facing. It is my intention to endeavour to suggest something that may be of help to the minister either in framing the bill, if it is not already framed, or in amending the bill at a later time. I think that is my duty. What is past is gone; and I am thoroughly convinced that if Canada and the empire lose this war, it will not make a bit of difference what we say or do here, as far as the future of this countiy is concerned; it will be a blackout for Canada and for the empire. I have no thought that such will be the case, but we should get on with the business covered by this resolution. There is yet time; the situation is not yet lost, and if we rise to the occasion we can materially assist in doing what in my judgment is the most important thing to be done to-day; that is, to rally this country to the fullest possible extent to assist in winning the war.
In my opinion four things are required to win the war. Of these the first is food, the discussion of which I shall leave to those better acquainted with the production of food. The other three are men, money and munitions, and it is the last item with which I propose to deal, particularly the part of the resolution which reads:
. . . establishing unemployed persons in employment and training and fitting suitable persons for productive occupations . . .
I have in mind what the Prime Minister of Great Britain said a few days ago in his masterly, epic speech in regard to the retreat from Flanders, perhaps the greatest and most glorious retreat in the history of the world.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. MacNicol
Before concluding his remarks, Mr. Churchill said that the British empire and France would not be defeated; that though Great Britain had to fight the battle alone, and even though Great Britain herself were overrun, the battle would be carried on from the parts of the British empire outside the old country itself, until victory was achieved. That is the bulldog spirit and, as a Britisher from the soles of my feet to the crown of my head, I am convinced that this empire and France will win. As a Canadian I want to do all I can to help win the war, and I want to try to help the minister.
A great deal has been said about Canadian plants and factories. A large part of my life, perhaps twenty-five years of it, was spent in factories. I know, or I should know, something about factories; I have served in them all the way through, from the bottom to the top. To-day Canadian industry can do a great deal more than it is doing. If Canadian industry were operating to capacity, which it is not, it could do infinitely more. But if Canadian industry attempted to reach capacity, I do not believe we would have enough trained men in the country to take care of the plants and equipment. Even with Canadian industry up to its capacity, this would not be sufficient; we must go a great deal further. We must have a great deal more industrial activity if we are to do what is expected of us; that is, rally all our resources to help win this war.
Three years ago I made a fairly thorough survey of industry in Great Britain. At that time, as hon. members will remember, Great Britain had commenced to rearm; but, in common with Canada and the United States, they had been through a severe depression that lasted for several years. Many men who had been expert mechanics at fifty-five years of age reached sixty-five before they again had an opportunity to resume their labours. In the interim they lost a great deal of their finesse and expertness in production. Youth, for the same reason, had not had an opportunity of learning trades for a number of years. The same situation existed in Canada and the United States; but when Great Britain came face to face with the necessity for getting busy and producing for her own defence, what did she do? During that time I surveyed many great factories and many industrial areas in the old land, and what did I find? I found that every available expert mechanic in England was employed. I found great efforts being made to rehabilitate mechanics expert in some of the hundred and one lines of trade that go into the production of war equipment. I found that they had 95826-401
established vestibule schools adjacent to their plants for the rehabilitation of those men who had lost their finesse.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I find my hon. friend's remarks extremely helpful, and I should like to ask a question. Were those schools established by the industries themselves, or were they under government supervision?


Mr. MacNICOL:: I am just coming to that. I stated that a number of industries had established, adjacent to their plants, vestibule or rehabilitation schools in which former mechanics were retrained and youths given an opportunity to learn. My recollection is that the government of the old country assisted financially, to a considerable extent, in the setting up and operation of those schools. I well remember reading the Manchester Guardian one day while I was surveying, I believe, the great John Brown steel works in Sheffield. That newspaper had six pages, of six or eight columns each, closely printed, of want ads. Each one pertained to mechanics of one kind or another. Those papers came to Canada and the United States, and to the best of the information I could obtain in England, subsequently, after I returned home, in Canada, and on a later trip to Washington, some 25,000 expert mechanics left America to work in British industrial plants. Many of those mechanics were former Englishmen, Scotchmen or Irishmen, who probably welcomed the opportunity to return home.
The British government then passed a measure to speed up the training of youth. The age of employment went down to fourteen years. I am not going to discuss whether it should or should not have gone down to that point; that is not a question with which I am faced. They were confronted with a great problem and they set out to accomplish what had to be done, and to win what they had in view.
If my memory is correct, they paid one-half the cost of training youth. I believe that, during the past two or three years, to a great extent Great Britain has overcome the lack of trained mechanics in that country, and is to-day producing beyond the greatest possible hopes of the government or the producers in England, three years ago.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Was the other half paid
by industry?


John Ritchie MacNicol: The British government
paid half the cost of training.


Norman Alexander McLarty: Yes; I understand that.
I am asking if the other half was paid byindustry.
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John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes. The British government looked upon their contribution-and in this I stand subject to correction, because what I am relating goes back to a time three years ago-as one which otherwise they would have had to give to the unemployed in relief payments.
On returning to Canada I made a thorough survey of industry in which I believe I covered some two hundred plants reaching all the way from the maritimes to Winnipeg. I did not go west of that city. I found that Canadian industry had not yet been seized of the necessity to do what was being done in England. In the United States, however, I found a determination to place themselves in a position to withstand any attack which might be made upon them. Finding themselves in much the same position as that in which England had been some three years ago, what measures were taken by people in the United States?
These measures I am now going to try to present to the minister as clearly as I can in the hope that if there is anything concrete in my suggestions, they may be used in the great task he has in hand. Three or more years ago-up to three years ago it had been developed fairly well-Civilian Conservation Corps camps were in operation in the United States. Their development was not so much for the purpose of rehabilitating industry as it was an effort to save their youth. The youth among the unemployed constituted a great number of those who were affected.
It was my good fortune to visit many of the CCC camps. I shall not detail what I found, more than to give some idea of the basis upon which the camps were organized. Who were taken into those camps? Something was said last night by an hon. member sitting to my left about the retraining of youth, the moral development of youth and matters of that kind. All that was considered in the CCC camps.
I have before me a booklet which deals particularly with the subject of eligibility for enrolment, and which I obtained on my last trip to Washington. It states:
Eligibility for enrolment in the corps for junior enrollees was confined to unmarried male citizens of the United States between the ages of seventeen and twenty-three, both inclusive, who are unemployed and in need of employment, and who are willing to allot $22 per month of their $30 cash allowance to dependants. Single unattached young men without dependants are eligible under the new law to be selected and enrolled in the corps. This group is given permission to deposit, subject to later repayment. $22 per month in lieu of allotment to dependants.
Some of course had lost parents; their parents were either dead or not capable of

being located, and to those was allowed the privilege of saving $22 per month. Slightly more than three per cent of enrolments in a year were in that category.
In 1938 there were 270,000 young men in camps situated throughout the forty-nine states of the union. Those young men were trained. I spent many hours in their camps, both in the daytime and during the night. At night they attended camp schools, where they obtained excellent training and education.
Another short paragraph in the book I have before me would, I believe, be worth reading. It refers to the functions of personnel and teaching staff, and is in these words:
1.	To plan, supervise, and direct the work of enrollees on work projects.
2.	To teach enrollees desirable work practices, living habits, citizenship and to minimize educational deficiencies through planned general instruction and vocational instruction.
3.	To assure a vigorous, healthful and helpful life for enrollees while they are in the Civilian Conservation Corps and to provide a physical, mental, and moral background of life in the corps which will aid the enrollee when he leaves.
Someone to my left last night mentioned something along these lines. That is excellent training for youth. Then, in addition to what I have already stated, in their night schools they are taught anything that might be valuable and worthwhile in life. There is education along many lines, and those educational activities are interspersed with amusements of one kind or another.
So effective and efficient has been the training in the CCC camps that a great demand has arisen throughout industry in the United States to engage those who have graduated from the camps. That demand has grown to the extent that, in 1938, 50,000 of the 270,000 graduated from CCC camps into industry. They were sought after, because they had received a good training.
That is what many young people want. They require discipline and order, and with that they can be taught something worth while. From the beginning which had been made in England, the authorities in the United States broadened out. I visited a number of schools connected with factories and schools set up under legislation passed in Washington. The reason for development along these lines is given in the following words, contained in a pamphlet issued by the United States Department of Labour:
Our modern high-powered machinery demands highly skilled craftsman as well as semi-skilled or unskilled machine tenders. Our modern houses need skilled plumbers, steamfitters, carpenters, and other building tradesmen; the manufacture of our automobiles calls for high-grade precision work. There must be skilled

Unemployment Relief-Mr. MacNicol
craftsmen in many trades

craftsmen who have learned what they can about the trade in school and who have learned the practical end of the trade by working for years in the shop as an apprentice, side by side with a journeyman or a master craftsman. They must possess more skill than did the workers of earlier times; they must understand the new processes and new materials as well as the technical phases of their trades. The trades to-day are keenly aware of the need for craftsmen who have learned the trade by way of a long and thorough apprenticeship.
A few weeks ago I received from the Department of Labour at Washington a letter in reply to a question I had asked as to whether I could go to see some of the later or more modem schools in operation. They directed me to go to the minister's neighbouring city, the great city of Detroit. I visited a number of schools there, one of which was called the "building trades school." A total of 541 young men were being trained there, although not all at the same time. They are sent to the school by their employers to perfect themselves in their trades.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I presume that is similar to the mechanics class in Galt?


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am coming to that; if I have time, I shall cover that quite thoroughly. I visited this "building trades school" and was delighted with the work being done. Each young man attends the school for four hours a week at his employer's expense. They are thus able to learn many things which they could not learn on the job. I understand the cost of the school was financed by the state of Michigan to the extent of 25 per cent and by the department of labour at Washington to the extent of 75 per cent. It may have been fifty-fifty between the two governments; I have just forgotten. The city of Detroit pays the salary of the chief instructor. The young men were greatly pleased with the training they were receiving in this school. They found they enjoyed their work much more because of the extra technical learning they obtained. They were able to earn better wages at their jobs because of their increased training in theory.
There are a number of fine technical schools in Detroit. We have some good ones here in Canada, and I shall refer to them in a moment. One or two methods of instruction which were being carried on in the schools in Detroit I have not seen in operation in Canada. I think the minister should consider the speeding up of the training of young men who, we hope, will be demanded by industry before very long to help produce those things which will be necessary to win the war. Our whole duty now is the winning of the war. We should put ourselves in a better position to
provide the equipment and machines for which England and France are calling. I know Canadians can produce these if they have an opportunity to do so. Unfortunately a number of our Canadians will have to be trained.
How are they doing this on the other side of our boundaiy? A number of companies in Detroit train two young men to work on the same machine. While one young man is actually at work in the plant, the other is attending a technical school, such as the Wilbur Wright school. These young men are paid only for the time they work in the shop. They are actually on half-time, but otherwise they probably would be unemployed. They work two weeks in the plant and then spend two weeks in the school. I was greatly interested in what the young men were learning under this system. For instance, a man would be working in a plant on the manufacture of gears. It might be aeroplane gears, automobile gears, gun gears or any other kind of gear. In the plant he would be working on the actual machine, but when he went to school he would be making drawings and figuring designs. In the school he was obtaining technical background; in the plant he was increasing his practical knowledge.
I have spent twenty-five years in industry, and I believe that type of training would be a splendid thing to start here in Canada. This work could be carried on under the provisions of this resolution. These men are learning auto-mechanics, which is closely related to aeroplane mechanics. This type of training should be speeded up in this country so that we may be able to send sufficient aeroplanes to blot out the sun over Germany. In any event, we should be sending enough to defeat her. Canadians have proved themselves to be the best fliers in the world. We have wonderful shops and plenty of young men capable of being trained.
I visited another school where young men were being taught everything about the repairing of automobile engines. They were learning everything about the electrical system, carburetors and so on. This work is closely allied to aeroplane engine work. Any one-may drive his car into this school and have it repaired free of charge, if he is willing to take a chance on the repair work. The instructor told me that no car has ever come back.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They never came back because they were so well repaired. This instructor inspects every car to see that it is properly repaired. This is the best kind of practical training. The point I am trying to
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make is that on the other side of the line they are really tlying to do something to train their young men to fill these necessary positions. When I am on my way south I often visit Williamsport, a beautiful city on the banks of the Susquehanna. In 1931 a Doctor Parkes decided to devote his life to the training of young men in that city. At first he had only two small basement rooms and one or two machines in which to train young men in mechanics. But he has done a marvellous work. They tell me that during the last nine years some 4,100 young men have been trained in his school, which has grown considerably. I do not know just how it is financed, but the city of Williamsport certainly has benefited from this work.
The minister comes from a great city, one of the greatest industrial cities in Canada. Windsor is perhaps the greatest auto and truck manufacturing city in the dominion. I believe the minister is acquainted with the presidents of many of these companies. I know most of them myself. I doubt if there are better plants anywhere. For years these plants have been engaged in the manufacture of cars and trucks which are sent all over the world. I feel sure that if some time when he was home, the minister called these men together in his office and said, " Gentlemen, I am not speaking for the government "-he could speak for the government if he were asked to-*" but I want you to tell me what you can do about building aeroplanes," he would get results. I have no doubt that aeroplanes could be produced in that city.
Of course money would be required, but it would be the salvation of this country if whatever amount is needed were voted promptly to erect factories in this country for the production of aircraft. If we lose the war, nothing will matter; vre shall be ruled by another nation, and the boundless resources of Canada will be exploited by others. I would not be concerned about how much the costs may be in the initial stages, because we necessarily expect to spend money freely at the beginning to induce men to erect plants adjacent to their present factories. We should build a thousand aeroplanes by this time next year. The cost is a secondary consideration; let the government tell the manufacturers, "Go ahead; we will send in our costing clerks to see what it costs to do this work; we will treat you fairly; we will give you consideration and conform to a reasonable profit; but above all we want this empire and France saved." These are the two nations which stand for the things which God would have the world ruled by, and these are the nations which we must help and help quickly.

I am convinced that in the minister's own home city and in my home city they could build aeroplane factories and produce the planes required by this country. I know that there are other cities equally capable of such production, but I mention the one from which the minister comes because I know there are large factories there. The young men being trained in one way or another would be ready to take their places in Canada's effort some six months hence.
Another suggestion relates to our technical schools. In Windsor, where the minister comes from; in London, Hamilton and so on, there are fine technical schools, as there are in Toronto, Montreal and other great cities in Canada. I offer the suggestion to the minister that part of the money to be voted under this bill be used to associate the technical schools with our war effort, because the prosecution of the war must come ahead of everything else. Let us concentrate our efforts upon using the technical schools for this object, commencing this summer.	The
teachers are fine competent people. Very likely they would volunteer their sen-ices; I do not know that I would ask them to do so, but for some reasonable consideration I am sure that teachers throughout the country would be willing to devote time this summer to the technical training of our young men. Nor would I ask the young men to work for nothing. We should offer them some consideration if they will go to those schools and learn, and many of them will spend two or three months this summer in training, and perhaps graduate into the plants which, I hope, by that time will be crying out for partly trained employees. I believe that something could be done in that regard.
There is much more about which one could speak, so many things which one could suggest. I have in mind our great coal problem, but I am not going to elaborate upon that. I have already pleaded for a national coal policy for this country, which would, I am sure, give employment to thousands of men.
Somebody spoke to-day about iron. I was formerly associated for many years with the iron and steel business. I know there is plenty of iron in Canada. I am told that deposits lately discovered in northern Ontario are equal to anything produced in the Mesaba range, Iron river and other centres in Minnesota and Wisconsin. Time will not permit me to enlarge on these matters, but I may do so later.
If I may address myself to the minister, I would say that he has experience. He has been associated one way and another with all the big plants around Windsor of which I have been speaking. He has probably had

Unemployment Relie!-Mr. Maybanlc
a good deal to do with their legal affairs. He is in contact with them; he knows what they can do. I suggest that in connection with this legislation he give serious consideration to the erection as quickly as possible of aeroplane plants and the building of aeroplanes in this country, first, because it will help to win the war; sfecond, because it will provide wonderful training for numbers of our young men.
Finally, I would urge that we do something about the production of tanks. The other day I was talking to a big steel man-I know most of them-and I said, "You can build tanks?" He said, "You know I can build tanks. Give me the orders and I will build them." Except perhaps some of the best equipment now being produced in Europe, there is nothing pertaining to the production of tanks which cannot be done in Canada. Let us get started. They had to start over there. After all, it will be some time before enemy tanks could attack us in this dominion, and perhaps by that time we shall have perfected the manufacture of these weapons. The necessary steel could be rolled here. Years ago we used to manufacture numbers of tractors. The underequipment can be made in the minister's own city as well as at Oshawa, Toronto, and other places where trucks and motorcar equipment is being made. The same thing applies to guns and to shells.
I have been told that no better shell lathes are manufactured anywhere than are being made not far from where I live. Two or three years ago I was in England on a trip with the producer of some of these shellmaking machines. He is a marvellous man. Somebody said something yesterday about conscripting industry. Well, you cannot conscript all brains. This man who turned out these great lathes would lie awake at nights for weeks and weeks figuring out the relationship of one part to another part of the machine. In the morning he would put down his conclusions on paper. Finally he produced a wonderful shell-making lathe, which, I am told, turns shells out as fast as any lathe in the world. He has already supplied the British government with a large number of these lathes for use in making shells in Great Britain; some have gone to South Africa, some to Australia. But he paid a heavy price for all that hard thinking night after night. His health broke down. After a long siege of ill health he recovered, thank God. He would be too valuable a man for this country to lose, particularly at this juncture when men able to turn out equipment of this kind are so urgently needed.
With regard to returns to the manufacturer, the government can regulate what profits any company shall make. I do not think that is the big question just now. The main consideration at this time is to turn out the stuff which will help us to win the war, because if we lose the war we lose everything-your home, my home, everybody's home and everything which has been handed down to us through the work of generation after generation. We must win the war. The minister has under this measure a golden opportunity to rehabilitate the youth of this country, who, I hope and believe, can be utilized before long in the directions I have suggested-in tank plants, aeroplane plants, gun plants, plants manufacturing the classes of material for which our heroes over there are crying cut to-day. What did they plead for most strongly when they returned to England? "Give us shells, give us planes, and we will trim them to a frazzle." But they cannot win with their bare hands; they cannot go up to the front line without weapons against steel and iron. They must have the equipment, and Canada, thank God, can make it.
If I have said a thing which will help, I shall feel that I have done my duty. I have no criticism to offer. This is not a time for criticism; this is the time to act, if we are going to win, and that should be our objective.


Mr. RALPH MAYBANK (Winnipeg South Centre):: 
Angus MacInnis: My first words in this debate fall very closely in line with part of the words just spoken by the hon. member who preceded me (Mr. Maybank). I want to stress two points. I may say many things, but I should like the Minister of Labour (Mr. McLarty) and the committee to take note of two points in particular in connection with this question of unemployment relief, and the other half of the question, agricultural assistance. Having now had ten years of experience in dealing with unemployment without achieving any definite or useful results, I urge that it is time to try to plan for putting an end to relief as such. I am satisfied that we can never deal with this matter satisfactorily until we work out a plan. The next point is that the plan must be based on social justice. Unless we approach the question from the viewpoint of social justice, justice to those who are submerged by the economic competition which this system demands, we cannot solve the problem in a satisfactory manner.
I am not going over the figures of unemployment; after all, they are dead and cold things. Figures in the blue book may tell you the number of unemployed, the number on relief, but they do not tell the misery and despair in the homes of the unemployed, and consequently are not of any great value.
Since 1930 Canada has spent, I believe, more than a billion dollars on various forms of relief. In April, 1933, at the peak of unemployment, in the depths of the depression, it was said that some 13J per cent of the population of Canada was dependent on government assistance in one way or another. In the years that followed, 1934, 1935, 1936 and 1937, there was a gradual improvement, but at the end of 1937 we still had per cent of the total population dependent upon relief for their subsistence. This winter the figures for those on urban and rural relief amounted to some 700,000. This is an enormous number
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of people to have to live in the misery, want and degradation in which the unemployed of this country must live. I think I am fortunate in coming from perhaps the most socially minded province of Canada; taken as a whole, I think perhaps the unemployed in British Columbia are treated as well as in any other province, if not better; yet from actual experience with conditions that prevail in that province, I know that the lot of the unemployed is appalling.
Since the day this parliament opened, the minds of all have been taken up with the life md death struggle going on across the Atlantic. That is only natural, for we all feel that we will be affected by the outcome of that struggle. This afternoon the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) said that if we lose, other people will take over this dominion with its great natural resources. I realize that that may be the case, but I must say that for the great majority of the people of Canada the natural resources are now owned by other people, who put a fence round them so that only on their terms may the people who produce the wealth of the country obtain access to those resources. The hon. member said he was anxious to win the war in order to prevent that happening. The winning of the war may prevent it, but I am anxious that we should win the war in order that social justice may prevail in Canada and throughout the world. It is because social justice did not prevail that we are in our present difficulties. There is, then, a real danger that because of this preoccupation with the war, unemployment and the conditions which cause it, as well as the various conditions arising from it, may not receive at this session the consideration that the whole question merits.
From statements made by the Minister of Labour when moving the resolution, and from changes which he said would appear in the bill this year as compared with other years, it would seem that the government are continuing their old policy of doing nothing and hoping that something will turn up. In former years they placed their hope in reviving world trade. That hope now having gone, they are looking to the war to solve the problem of unemployment. Speaking to the resolution last Friday night, the minister said that owing to the industrial activity expected as a result of the war it would not be necessary to make provision in the bill for public works. In the same connection he said that if public works became a vital necessity they could be initiated by means of an estimate which

would be presented to parliament. I should like to remind the minister and the committee that if a bill is brought down and passed without making provision for such assistance as was provided by section 3 of the 1939 bill, and by previous bills, it is utter nonsense to say that we can bring down an estimate in this house to provide for such a contingency. Within a few weeks at the most, parliament will have prorogued; this session of parliament will be no more, and it then will be too late to bring down an estimate to meet any emergency that may arise. The time to provide for the needs of the unemployed is now, while we have this legislation before us and while parliament is in session.
This is merely an opinion, but it seems to me that during its years in office this government has shown an appalling lack of understanding of Canada's social problems. But it is peculiarly and particularly blind in its approach to the social problem of unemployment. To a large extent that is equally true of all other governments in Canada; but the other governments, provincial and municipal, have some excuse for their attitude. They have not the means of effectively providing for or dealing with unemployment. The whole question of the unemployed has always been considered as though the unemployed were the only people concerned. The social implications to Canada of unemployment have never been really considered. Unemployment relief has always been based on the least amount that will keep the unemployed from starving or from causing a disturbance. If hon. members think I am going too far in making a statement of that kind, I will support it from the findings of the royal commission on dominion-provincial relations. At page 21 of book II I find this:
One serious defect has been the complete lack of uniform relief standards. Municipalities generally have set their own standards in the amount of food, shelter, clothing, and medical care that should be allowed, and unless these appeared to be too high, the province has rarely intervened. Many smaller municipalities refused to pay relief at all even when there was real need. Such standards as have gradually developed have emphasized immediate economy rather than adequacy, with complete disregard of long-range costs, such as the probable increase of deficiency diseases (e.g. tuberculosis), or the breakdown of the morale of the able-bodied unemployed. Standards have tended to be those of poor relief, rather than for the maintenance of the efficiency of employables.
Then again, on page 172, book I, we find this:
It is clear from the above review that there was no coordinated or carefully planned relief policy in Canada during the _ depression. It was a policy of expediency which failed either

Unemployment Reliej-Mr. Maclnnis
to promote maximum welfare under the circumstances or to safeguard the financial position of the various governments. The dominion, from whom alone leadership could have come, was mainly concerned with steering a day-today course between insisting on the constitutional responsibility of the provinces and the necessity of preventing wide-spread starvation.
That is the unanimous opinion of the four men who wrote that report, and it is nothing new to this government because at least the group with which I am associated have been saying just that, and saying it for years.
There is nothing surer than that we can never deal effectively with unemployment until we have worked out a plan. This planless way which has been followed, this dealing with the question on the bases of expediency will never end unemployment. But before we can make any progress either in peace time or war time, we must get away from the attitude I mentioned a moment ago, namely that of looking upon the unemployed as a social nuisance. We must realize that the unemployed are unemployed largely through no fault of their own. We must get it clearly into our minds that under the present economic system unemployment automatically develops out of every mechanical improvement. As the means of production become more complex and more under the control of a few, the tendency to monopoly increases. A larger share of the total wealth goes to fewer people and the many are forced to lower and lower standards of living to semi-starvation.
We have to plan if we are going to get away from that sort of thing. I would ask members of the committee to put themselves in the place of the unemployed for a little while. Let them try to see things through the eyes of the unemployed. If we would do that, I think this is the way things would appear to us. We would see ourselves and our families suffering all the miseries of the damned; when we asked the government to spend money to provide employment, we would be told that the country could not stand such heavy expenditure. In a word, we would be told the government could not find the money.
But in a time of war we would see that the government could find unlimited amounts of money. What would we say in such circumstances? I know what the unemployed are saying. I have talked with many of them, and I know what they are saying. They are saying, "Why should we be concerned about the war? The government can find money for destruction, but none for construction. We have been ready, nay anxious, to go to work
to produce wealth, but we were not allowed to do so. We were left rotting in idleness and despair."
That has been the portion of the unemployed for ten long years, in this dominion with its great natural resources and the great wealth to which reference is so often made. We must consider unemployment as a canker eating into the very vitals of society. If we continue to neglect it as we have done in the past, we shall pay a terrible price, and that in the not distant future.
Even if there is a war, I say there is no better time than the present to begin to prepare for the future and to begin working out a plan to deal with our social problems. Whether we win the war or whether we lose it, there is one thing of which we may be certain: world economy will be shattered for many years to come, and international trade, the sheet anchor of this government's hope for solving all our social and economical ills, can be given up for a long, long time.
There are a number of things which the government could do, and which it could begin doing at once. As I have said, the first is to begin to treat the unemployed as if they were human beings with rights to be respected. This has never been done before. Whenever the urge for economy overtakes any of our governments-municipal, provincial or federal -the first thing to come under review is the relief pittance received by the unemployed. This attitude should be changed without delay.
The unemployed must have more than just adequate food, clothing and shelter. "Man cannot live by bread alone." He can live only as he takes part in the social, economic and cultural activities of the community in which he lives. Sometimes after the house adjourns at night, I take the opportunity of doing a little reading. I wish to quote a short paragraph from an essay by W. H. Auden who, I am told, is one of the young poets in Great Britain who are gaining some prominence. Referring to the problem of social readjustment and how to build a better society, and having in mind the unemployed, he makes this statement:
People cannot grow unless they are happy and, even when their material needs have been satisfied, they still need many other things. They want to be liked and to like other people; to feel valuable, both in their own eyes and in the eyes of others; to feel free and to feel responsible; above all, not to feel lonely and isolated.
As I said, I have met the unemployed; I have talked with them. I have tried to help them solve their problems. I have gone
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their bail when they have been put into gaol as vagrants. I have gone to the gaols to see them. I have gone to the police stations to try to defend them. I know what they think, and I know that one of the worst features is the feeling that they are outside the rest of the community.
We should take advantage of war work to improve the morale of many of our people who for years have been unemployed. Quite a number of our unemployed are going into employment for the first time for many years. Certain practices are being carried on in our industries which I think should be frowned on by the government. These practices may be necessary later on, but at the present time I think they should be discontinued. Mr. Howard B. Chase, a director of the war purchasing board, is reported in a Vancouver paper as saying:
There is a tendency among our employing classes to lengthen hours of production rather than to take on more men. These people are falling down on their job. It is the duty of every employer, particularly those in war production. to take on as many men as possible and train them.
That is a perfectly logical point of view, and I think the government should see that it is enforced. Should the tempo of industry in the dominion increase so that there is a huge demand for men which cannot be filled, then there might be some argument for overtime. But there is no social argument for overtime as long as other men are unemployed. It is being done in order that the people who have contracts, the industrialists, may increase their profits.
There is another matter which I would draw to the attention of the minister. The government should refuse contracts or orders to concerns which do not recognize or consult with the accredited representatives of labour organizations. Since the outbreak of the war, every committee set up by the British government has contained representatives from the various trade union organizations. This has been the case whether such committees had to do with industrial work or not. But our industrial barons even refuse to negotiate or have anything to do with their organized employees. I am quite aware that a fair wage clause is inserted in all contracts given by the government, but these fair wage clauses do not mean very much unless there is an employees' organization on the job to see that they are enforced. I have been a worker in industry, and I know what one can get without an organization and what one can get with an organization.

I should like to direct attention to an advertisement which appeared in the Montreal Gazette of May 29, inserted by Canadian Celanese Limited. I do not know whether the dominion government, the Department of National Defence or any other department has any contracts with this company.


Norman Alexander McLarty: I inquired into that and I may say that they have not.
. Mr. MacINNIS: I hope this company do not get any. The advertisement showed that the workers in this plant had gone on strike and that a meeting had been arranged between Mr. Rochette, the provincial minister of labour; Mr. Tremlay, the deputy minister of labour; Mr. Hamel, minister without portfolio; Mr. Miron, the chief conciliator for the department; Mr. Rajotte, the mayor of Drummondville and Messrs. Cameron, Thomson and Palmer, who represented the company. There were morning and afternoon sessions of this meeting at which arrangements tor reopening the plant were discussed. The result of the discussion was communicated to Mr. Albert Lemay, an employee who was present at the afternoon session. I am not going to take the time to read all the conditions laid down by the company under which employees would be permitted to come back to work, but the fourth condition was this:
The company refused to recognize the union as the representative of its employees.
I am told that the union is an affiliate of the Catholic federation of labour. The last paragraph in the advertisement reads:
Following this meeting, company representatives met a temporary committee of employees which did not, however, contain representatives from all departments of the plant. The temporary committee discussed none of the foregoing arrangements for reopening the plant.
The company just put the conditions before them and said: "This is what you get; accept it or you get nothing." As long as conditions like these exist in Canada, there is good reason why many people should not be greatly concerned with winning the war in order that companies like these may still continue to control the natural resources and industries of this country. Before the winning of the war will have any meaning to these people, it must be translated into terms of social justice. Social justice means, in the first instance, that the workers in industry shall have some say in deciding the conditions under which they will work and the price they shall receive for their labour.
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the house took recess.

Supply-Health-Administration
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock. SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Fournier (Hull) in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OP PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH Health branch.
237. Health branch administration, $43,000.
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health): Certain questions were raised the other evening, particularly by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), with a view to obtaining data on health conditions affecting recruits in the Canadian active service force and reasons for the rejections. I stated then that the data required were not available in this department, and that I would consult with my colleague the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers). I have done so, and I will give all possible available data to the committee, either when the minister's estimates come up, or before then if possible.


Mr. LOCKHART:: Last evening when the committee rose, I was directing the minister's attention to matters of general health affecting the troops, not only those in Canada but others whom it may be found necessary to Teturn from overseas. I wish to ask the minister particularly about a development which occurred at the time of the outbreak of war. We do not want to rehash past events unnecessarily, but I believe that the present Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) was at that time Minister of National Defence. The first enlistments which took place in my part of the country arose from the mobilization of the Lincoln and Welland regiment, which was used for canal guard duty in that area. I am told by a number of these men, as well as by dentists and others, that the applicants were physically fit in every respect except as to the condition of their teeth. I know men who at personal sacrifice had their teeth repaired upon the assurance that they would be accepted for active service if certain corrections were made. The condition frequently was the result of lack of work, unemployment or part time employment. A great many of these men are anxious to enlist, but contend that this is the one impediment to their enlistment. As the minister presumably knew the situation at the time of the outbreak of the war, and as he is now Minister of Pensions and National Health, perhaps he could suggest
some relief for men in this position. I know several of them. One man had his teeth removed, but he was financially unable to have them replaced, and is still going along without teeth. Can men who are handicapped in this way be assured of some assistance?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: I believe that this development took place after the early days, after we called the forces out under the provisions of sections 63 and 64. Anyone who would have been turned down on account of defective teeth could be accepted if the required adjustments could be made by filling teeth or furnishing dentifrices. That is the information I have received.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: That is, the correction would be made at the cost of the man who was seeking to enlist? Is that it?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, no; by the department, and after enlistment.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Is the minister sure that all these adjustments were made?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am reasonably sure of it, but I am subject to correction.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I shall have to bring down the information I have.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I shall be glad to discuss any question with my hon. friend.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask the minister, along the line just mentioned by the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart), if the department has on its files anything with reference to the researches which have been made by Doctor Harold K. Box, D.D.S., who is research professor of peridontology at Toronto university, and about whose great work in dentistry the newspapers have been publishing so much lately.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that the department does not have that on its files, but, upon the suggestion of my hon. friend, we will certainly look it up right away.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: As to the minister's statement concerning the rejection of recruits on account of bad teeth, I might say that complaints came to me in Nova Scotia that applicants who had been found medically fit and acceptable in every other respect were rejected by reason of faulty teeth, and the request was made that their teeth be put in proper condition so that they
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would be accepted. But some of these applicants did not have the necessary means; they were on relief or in such poor circumstances that they were unable to have this work done, and therefore could not get into active service. This information came to me during the past weekend.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have no doubt that is a correct statement of conditions in the early stages of the enlistments, but I am informed that conditions in this respect have been reasonably well adjusted. As a matter of fact, all this discussion refers to another department, although I would be glad to give any information at my disposal regarding the questions which have been asked. Difficulties arose in the earlier stages of the enlistments, but I believe that at the present time, if the recruit is reasonably healthy, corrections will be effected after he has enlisted.


Percy Chapman Black: At the expense of the department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, after he has enlisted.


Clarence Gillis: I understand that we are
now discussing specifically the health branch. Last evening, before adjournment, the minister made a statement to the effect that the air raid precaution committees being set up in at least four provinces across Canada came under this particular department. The average citizen's conception of an air raid precaution committee is that it is a voluntary organization of citizens who carry out that work without any remuneration or thought of remuneration. I should like to know what portion of the appropriation for the health branch is to be expended on the work of these committees, and if to date there has been any expenditure by the branch for that kind of work.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The moneys expended upon this work of air raid precautions do not come from the regular funds of the Department of Pensions and National Health but come from the special war appropriations. In the first war appropriation of some months ago there was voted for this purpose $150,000. I am informed that, of this amount, the sum of $55,000 was expended in the four provinces which were undertaking that work; and the $5,000 to each province which I mentioned last night was part of the $55,000, which was the entire amount spent in the four provinces. The cost of supplies and literature came out of that total vote.


Clarence Gillis: What I was interested in
finding out was, were any salaries paid to any of the officials of that organization?
[Mr. P. C. Black.)


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: By the department, to only one officer, who is at the head of it, Colonel Minns, who 1 believe has performed other duties in addition to this one. He was in England on other duties, I believe, since this work was commenced. In the provinces any salaries which would be paid would be defrayed by the provincial governments, who are really carrying on the work in cooperation with the federal authority.


Mr. GREEN:: How much is to be set aside during the present fiscal year for air raid precautions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I believe the amount is $100,000.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: Is there any item in
the estimates?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No. The reason is that items for this work are included in the appropriation which passed through the house a few days ago, and the first vote for this work was included in the appropriation which went through some months ago, before the present parliament met.


Howard Charles Green: The minister explained to the committee last night that this plan had been put into effect in only the four provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and British Columbia. Might I suggest to him that if nazi bombers come to Canada they will not stop at the Ottawa river; they will very likely bomb Ottawa before they attack any other place, and then proceed to Toronto and other industrial centres in Ontario. It seems to me that this plan should be put on a nation-wide basis and that the dominion government should accept some direct responsibility for the control and management of the plan. Our great mistake in Canada and possibly in the other democracies has been to wait, in all these things, until it is too late. I suggest that we should bring our air raid precautions up to date on a nationwide scale without any further delay, and this government is the proper authority to do that work.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I would point out two things. In the first place, the staff officers of the Department of National Defence were those who defined what they considered, rightly or wrongly, the vulnerable areas of Canada, and the proposal was proceeded with on that basis. In the second place, in England the air raid precautions were staged under what might be termed civilian control. In Canada there is of necessity consultation and cooperation with the civilian authority, and that is why this

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is not under the Department of National Defence but under the Department of Pensions and National Health. I took steps myself to ascertain from the other authorities whether they would like to have an extension of this in their provinces, and only four provinces were vitally interested in the problem.


Howard Charles Green: Is it not really part of the defence of Canada? Taking the necessary steps to protect the lives of people in the event of air raids comes under the direction of this government, and we should not have to wait until the provinces ask for help along that line. After all, those who might be killed in these provinces would be Canadians, just like those in the four provinces that have the plan. I do not see why the dominion should hang back and wait upon the provinces in such an emergency.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The whole scheme was commended by the federal government. It was the result of recommendations brought forward by an able committee of civil servants. It depends on provincial statutes and certain municipal ordinances for many of the facilities to be carried out. We have followed as best we can the practice adopted in England.


Howard Charles Green: That may not be the right
practice.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That may be true, but it was the only real precedent we had to go on. I can assure my hon. friend that we shall be only too willing to extend the projects in any direction considered necessary and afford the best protection we can to the civilian population.


Howard Charles Green: Are the government willing to take over complete direction of air raid precautions if the provinces agree?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The advice the government received was that it would not be possible for such a scheme to function properly, and the government accepted that advice.


Mr. MacGARRY:: I do not rise to ask for a cut in the estimates for public health because I am of opinion that these estimates, whether in time of peace or in time of war, are not sufficient adequately to deal with this important matter of public health. Being a new member in this house I am not disposed to interrupt or delay the progress of the committee. I feel, however, that on this important subject I should make a few remarks which I trust that you, Mr. Chairman, will regard as relevant.
Every hon. member will agree with me, I believe, when I say that the preservation of the health and the lives of our citizens is the paramount concern of individuals and the state. Members of the profession of which I happen to be a humble member have long since set aside the erroneous idea that their function was to cure the sick. They have laid that aside because they have come to the realization that there is another phase of the profession that is far more important, namely, the matter of public health. The efforts put forth by public health bodies would be absolutely useless if they had not the cooperation of the public. The question is asked: How are we to get that cooperation most effectively? We shall have to take this lurking lack of knowledge, the indifference and the greed that we find so obvious, and combat it with some proper knowledge and some practical methods of dealing with the science of healthy life. These are the means that we should take in order to get the cooperation of the laity.
The endeavour of public health authorities, as I understand it, is to combat, to prevent and to eliminate if possible all agents that are responsible for bringing into the light and distributing all the sources of disease; and in addition to that, there is another duty of public health officials, namely, to strengthen the individual resistance. Here we see that the question of nutrition is shown to be most effective in this public health programme. Many diseases if taken in time can be dealt with successfully by moderate treatments. We speak of a man, woman or child as being healthy if the bodily organs are free from disease and are functioning properly. The discovery, through laboratory research, that disease is started and distributed by minute parasitic germs is one of the things that have given impetus to a much wider field of public health work. We find that the government has taken a strong hand in this matter, passed many measures of public health and also made provision for their administration.
In the short time at my disposal I shall not attempt to trace the successful campaigns that have been carried on not only to prevent but, in some instances, actually to get under complete control some communicable diseases. I might mention diphtheria, smallpox and malaria. These three diseases were almost fatal some years ago. To-day, by successful scientific efforts, they are practically under control. Tuberculosis might be considered to-day as a curable disease. Cancer might be put in the same category, with possibly a little more limitation.

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Tuberculosis we say is a curable disease. That is only partly true. If the symptoms are recognized early and scientific treatment applied, we might say that tuberculosis is scientifically curable. But it is not curable if we speak from the point of view of finance, because so many of the people who are afflicted with that disease are unable to procure the scientific treatment. It is all very well to say complacently that the death rate from tuberculosis is falling; that of course is good news. But that does not reveal the intense suffering which prevails in the homes of many men and women afflicted with this dread disease. Therefore no sacrifice should be considered too great in order to bring about if possible a scientific cure for every man, woman and child in this dominion who is afflicted with the white plague.
As I said, we must remember that this public health programme is a cooperative movement. The units in the partnership are the government, the profession and the public. All these agencies must work together; all must know the means to use in this crusade, and must apply them cooperatively in order that they may be effective. The government must spend more money; the profession must bring into action every scintilla of science that they know, and the public will have to be educated to a realization of the great duty they themselves have to perform in that crusade. It was their own vigilance that caused the suppression of these other diseases, and the same price will have to be paid in order to bring into subjection these other pathological aggressors who are not so well identified by the profession, and for that reason cannot be so effectively dealt with.
The government has been sympathetic and benevolent up to the limit of the resources available, but there is not yet behind this public health movement sufficient support of public opinion to give the government courage to venture on a larger expenditure than in the past. If a united front is formed; if the public assure the government that they are behind this; if the profession put into action every scintilla of knowledge that they possess, I believe that we can carry on a successful war of defence against these pathological enemies that are invading and destroying our human tissue and leaving in their trail disastrous ravages not only on our domestic but on our social, industrial and economic institutions.


Mr. McIVOR:: For the last three sessions
the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Howden) and I have sponsored a resolution calling for some form of nationalization of

medicine, urging that the dominion government, the provincial governments, the medical associations and the social workers should cooperate to provide some means to take care of those who at present are not being taken care of. In the session of 1939 the then Minister of Pensions and National Health gave us a great deal of valuable information as to the cost as well as the need of such provision, but asked us to withdraw that resolution, which we thought it wise to do. This year wre cannot bring forward that resolution, for reasons which are quite evident.
I noticed that one distinguished doctor at the dominion medical association meeting stated that he thought such legislation was coming and the doctors should prepare themselves for it. We felt that this was encouraging. We know the need; some of us perhaps feel it very keenly. The people who are on relief have some form of medical attention; those who are rich or even fairly well off get good medical attention, but there is a vast class of citizens who cannot get the health examination and treatment that they require. I would ask the minister to keep this matter in mind; doubtless he knows as well as I do that when there is a war on, fewer people talk about their ills; they think of the ills of others that far outweigh their own disabilities. I know a man who told me last summer that some form of contributory health insurance was absolutely necessary. His wife passed on this year, and he himself who needed examination and some form of treatment passed on just a few months ago. I am sure that the minister, with his big heart and clear mind, will keep this in view, as we certainly shall, when opportunity comes to present that resolution to the house again.


Mr. HAZEN:: I should like to ask the minister a further question in connection with air raid precautions. I have what I might describe as a personal interest in the matter. Soon after the war broke out I received an urgent summons to attend a meeting of the legion in Saint John. I attended, and as a result found that I was a constable. A few days later I received a band to put round my arm with the word "police" on it, and some instructions about air raid precautions. Later I was presented with a whistle and a badge on which were the letters "ARP" surmounted by a crown. Last night the minister informed us that certain grants had been made to some of the provinces in this connection. I would ask him, was a grant of $5,000 made to New

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Brunswick last year in connection with air raid precautions? If such a grant was made, to whom was it made, and was any accounting received by this government as to how the money was spent? If such an accounting was received, will the minister be so good as to let us have particulars of the account?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The answer to the first question is yes. The sum of 85,000 was paid to the provincial treasury of New Brunswick, in accordance with paragraph 3 of the order in council, which reads:
That the provincial treasurers of the several provinces aforementioned shall furnish such reports and accounts relating to the expenditure of the said sums of money so advanced as the Minister of Pensions and National Health may from time to time require.
This was passed on January 25, 1940. I am informed that the accounting of this grant has not come to hand as yet, but of course it will be examined and will have to satisfy the financial authorities here in Ottawa.


Douglas King Hazen: Who was the officer in New Brunswick in charge of these air raid precautions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that it was a gentleman by the name of Ryan, who was working with the hydro electric company.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: How is the 8100,000 which is being spent this year broken up? What amounts are granted the various provinces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As yet that has not been determined. It will be a matter of consultation between the chief officer here and those responsible in the various provinces, with perhaps an extension of the same work to other provinces not yet taking advantage of the scheme, or possibly a further intensification of the work already done in those provinces which are considered to be most vulnerable. There is really no break-down of the 8100,000. I could give my hon. friend a rough estimate of how the grant of last year was expended. The equipment purchased last year amounted to 826,304.67. The grants to the four provinces totalled
820,000.	There was a grant of 85,000 to the St. John Ambulance Association, which has done wonderful work in connection with this w'hole scheme. The travelling expenses, probably those of headquarters officers going to cooperate with the various provincial authorities, amounted to 82,581.69. For literature, mostly pamphlets obtained in England, we spent 8570.17. For sample equipment, based upon the equipment used in other places, the
cost was 8102.67. Other expenditures were: printing, 8944.21 and freight, $192.60, making, a total of 855,696.01. That is how the grant of last year was expended. There will be a similar accounting, of course, for the grants of this year, whether or not the entire 8100,000 is expended.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Have plans been made to have this sample equipment manufactured in Canada if necessary?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It was so done.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: For several years now I have tried to get a little information with respect to the responsibility for the pollution of waters in international watersheds. The city of Toronto, from which I come, in common with many other cities in the upper part of the St. Lawrence watershed, is obliged by somebody to see to it that the waters of the great lakes and of that watershed are not polluted. I have always thought that the protection of those waters from pollution was not the sole responsibility of the municipality or the province; I have considered that some responsibility rests on the dominion government, since the benefits which result from the prevention of such pollution are not derived by only one province.
At the present time the city of Toronto is faced with a very large expenditure for a disposal plant. They have decided that they must do something about the matter, but it involves the expenditure of a large sum of money. I realize that the disposal of sewage is a matter which benefits the city of Toronto and the surrounding country, but it also benefits the people further down the lake and river. So it seems to me imfair that the city of Toronto-should have to bear alone the tremendous cost of taking care of that sewage disposal. The government of the United States appreciates this fact and has come to the aid of certain cities in that country in connection with disposal works.
My question, which I think deserves a pretty full answer from the minister, is this: Whose responsibility is it if the city of Toronto does not protect its water and allows it to be polluted? What jurisdiction has the dominion? Can the dominion make the city do this work or can they not? I should like to know a little about the matter, if the minister would be so kind.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This question really should be discussed under another item, but I am quite prepared to discuss it as well as I can at the moment. If my hon. friend will look at the vote for public

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health engineering, he will see an appropriation for the enforcement of regulations which have been approved by orders in council, the first passed in June, 1923, the next in February, 1930; the next in March, 1937, and the last in September, 1937. These are regulations concerning ice and water intended to be used for drinking and culinary purposes on vessels navigating on the great lakes and inland waters of Canada, on common carriers engaged in interprovincial and international traffic, as well as on common carriers engaged in trade on the coast of Canada, in addition to regulations and requirements for the supervision of shucking, handling and shipping scallop meat, and the taking, handling, packing and shucking of shellfish.
These regulations provide for the administration of the Public Works Health Act and the enforcement of the regulations thereunder for the preservation of health and the mitigation of disease among persons employed on the construction of public works.
Now I approach to some extent the point raised by my hon. friend. The regulations also provide for the supervision of sanitation on common carriers engaged in interprovincial and international traffie as well as in mining settlements and trading post areas in the northwest territories; also in national parks and summer camps situated on dominion lauds, and for purposes of cooperation with the provincial departments of health, the United States public health service and other federal government agencies in matters of sanitation, pollution of boundary waters and the like.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I thank the minister. Does not a broad question come up there, in regard to the pollution of international boundary waters, bearing in mind the great waterways treaty made between Canada and the United States? I have said this two or three times, and I do not want to labour the point, but really I should like to make myself clear. These cities on the United States side have received aid and assistance from the federal government whereas we have been forced to construct extensive works for sewage disposal. I have always felt that this was very unfair, and that it was not properly the responsibility of the municipality to bear the whole cost of such works. Is there not a responsibility on the dominion government under the great waterways treaty to see to it that our boundary waters are not polluted? I understand what the minister referred to, in connection with common carriers, and so on, but this is a far greater question. I have always been told that it was up to the municipality to look after its own sewage

disposal, but there are many factors entering into the question. For instance, if the city of Toronto or the city of Hamilton pollutes the water, that water goes right down the river, probably to the shellfish bed, and so on, since water does not purify itself but must be purified. I think this is something to which the government should give careful consideration. Last year I dealt with this matter in the house, when we in Toronto learned that we had to construct this plant. In Toronto we face an expenditure of $15,000,000 for a new sewage disposal plant. I suggested last year that we might obtain that money under a self-liquidating programme, but my suggestion was not sympathetically received. I am saying to-night that some aid ought to be given the city to take care of that situation.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not attempting to speak with any finality upon this difficult point, but if a complaint were made by one government to another government, that is, if the federal government received a complaint from the government of the United States, the international waterways commission would have to act. That brings me to a consideration of section 9 of the Department of Pensions and National Health Act, paragraph (f) of which states:
The duties and powers of the minister under this part shall extend to . . .
(f) The enforcement of any rules or regulations made by the International Joint Commission, promulgated pursuant to the treaty between the United States of America and His Majesty relating to boundary waters and questions arising between the United States of America and Canada, so far as the same relate to public health.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I explain that


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Just a minute. I understand the powers held by the minister. In other words, if we receive a complaint from the United States respecting the pollution of our water-and they could do that quite justly at any time-we would do what the minister suggests. Right now they might be in a position to complain respecting the sewage going into the lake at Toronto. If the minister receives that complaint, does he go to the province of Ontario or to the municipality of the city of Toronto? I understand he has the right to insist that either the municipality of Toronto or the province of Ontario will take care of that situation.
So far as Toronto is concerned, let me point out that we could obtain our drinking water through a process of filtration. Our bathing beaches would not be much good unless they were properly attended to. However the

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people who are farther down the lake would be adversely affected by the pollution of lake water, and it would be to their benefit and to the benefit of any others who might be affected, that some proper action be taken.
I	believe there is some responsibility on the government at Ottawa. It has the power to lorce the city of Toronto to take care of its sewage. If the federal government has that power, it seems to me it should also have the power to give assistance to Toronto or to Hamilton or to any other city requesting it, to make the provisions necessary for the proper disposal of sewage. I cannot remember the names of the cities in the United States which have been helped by the federal government in that country, but there are plenty of them. I believe the same condition ought to obtain here.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I	still say that I am correct in my statement that the Minister of Pensions and National Health can intervene only when the question is an international one, and the request comes in under the regulations mentioned in paragraph (f) of section 9, requiring the minister to take action. It must be realized that the Department of Pensions and National Health Act does not give the department jurisdiction in respect of public health matters which are exclusively provincial or municipal. We cannot trespass on the jurisdiction of provincial and municipal governments, except when we are given special authority as a result of international powers, or powers affecting us from outside. That is a principle which has been fundamental in federal government jurisdiction since the time of confederation.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am glad to
have the answer from the minister. I do not wish to bother him unduly, but I should like to make this point. It would seem that our recourse is this, that all we have to do is to go to the government of the United States, point out to them that we are polluting the waters adjacent to the city of Toronto, and ask them to come to the dominion government and see that we do not do it any more. If we do that, then I understand the minister will have to approach the province of Ontario and the city of Toronto and say to them, "You cannot do that any more." So long as I know the correct procedure I am satisfied, because when the proper occasion presents itself I shall raise the question of responsibility. The minister has nothing to do with providing money to take care of this situation, but I want to make my point, because I think it is not a bad one.


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: Mr. Chairman, I did not clearly understand the explanation given with respect to air raid shelters. To be frank about the matter, I was rather surprised to hear the minister mention four provinces. I would predict that if Canada were invaded by the enemy against which it is now waging war, it would not be through any of the four provinces mentioned, but rather through Churchill, the Manitoba port. Few people may realize that Winnipeg is a very large industrial centre and is considered to be the gateway to the west. It would be my prediction that in the event of invasion the base for air operations would probably be set up at Churchill. That is not beyond possibility at all. My question is this: How do those four provinces come under the grant? Are they jointly concerned, or is the grant entirely under the administration of the federal government?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I tried to make myself clear before, but evidently I failed. The four provinces which were given consideration under the vote were the areas recommended by the best staff officers of the Department of National Defence as being vulnerable areas in Canada. There may be a good deal of merit in the suggestion made by the hon. member. For instance, Prince Edward Island may be considered a vulnerable area; yet it is not receiving consideration, and has not asked for it under the grant. The city of Toronto might be considered a vulnerable area; yet nothing has been done in Ontario under the grant. In deciding which provinces should receive the advantage of the grant, the department has had to take the advice from those who are supposed to be best qualified to give it, when it comes to a consideration of areas which should receive the necessary benefits.


James Arthur Ross: The Department of National Defence makes the sole decision; it does not negotiate with the provinces?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is correct.


James Arthur Ross: It is entirely up to the Department of National Defence, on their own?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


James Arthur Ross: That is the point I wanted to have clear.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Last night the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann) referred to the grant to the Health League of Canada. I mention the matter at this

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time so that before we come to a more detailed consideration of that organization, and while we are still discussing administration, the minister might very well ask his colleagues to reconsider the grant to the health league, with a view to increasing it.
I	am familiar with the wonderful work that organization is doing to-day, and the difficulties it has to face. If we can afford to give $100,000 to the city of Ottawa, as has been done in years past; if we are not going to ask the city of Ottawa to economize a little bit, and if we are doing that at the expense of the Health League of Canada, then all I can say is that I am sorry I was not more vocal in my observations about the $100,000 grant given to Ottawa. I would ask the minister kindly to reconsider the vote when the supplementary estimates are presented.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I believe up until last year the health league received only $5,000, but last year the second $5,000 was added. I agree entirely with everything the hon. member has said in connection with the valuable work carried on by the organization in question, and I should be very glad indeed to try to meet the request, if I can.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: I was pleased to hear many hon. members sitting on the government side of the house speaking in favour of national health. It seems to me that makes it just about unanimous. Let us do something about the matter.
With regard to this matter of tuberculosis, I should like to draw attention to the splendid work being done in this field by Doctor Ferguson, head of the anti-tuberculosis league in Saskatchewan. That league has done splendid preventive tuberculosis work. I understand this work is so well advanced now that they can almost predict the stamping out of the disease within a fairly reasonable time in Saskatchewan.
In the dental field we are facing considerable difficulty. If a man has bad teeth, and that is all that is wrong with him, he finds trouble in having them attended to. But if he happens to have tuberculosis, then he can go to a sanatorium and have his teeth treated. They circulate a story out in our part of the country about a poor man who had been unemployed for some time. He was unfortunate enough to contract appendicitis. When he went to a hospital they told him it was impossible to operate because he had no money. Not feeling in a kindly frame of mind toward society in general, he went down the street and threw a stone through the nearest plate-glass window. He was arrested and sentenced 
to thirty days' imprisonment. When he was taken to gaol they found he had appendicitis, so he was sent to the hospital and attended to. He got out in thirty days, a free man and with his appendix out.
I should like to ask two or three questions. What proportion of this amount is being spent on educational work throughout the dominion? It seems to me that educational work is the foundation of the whole scheme. Someone made the remark the other day that the proper way to treat these matters of health was to get after the grandmothers. I would point out that the women living to-day will be the grandmothers of to-morrow, so how about getting after their health now? What cooperation is there between the provinces and the dominion? What is the attitude of the medical association with regard to the nationalization or socialization of health? How do the various provinces rate in health standards? Is there a connection between the standards of education and the standards of health?
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre) r There is nothing in this particular vote for education work; that is provided for in other votes which will come up later. As far as health standards are concerned, I think there is no doubt that Saskatchewan leads the rest of Canada in the work it has done. The question of health insurance was discussed at considerable length last year. Several hon. members who are again in the house will remember the resolution moved by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor). I believe he has a similar resolution on the order paper this year. At that time the former minister went most thoroughly and exhaustively into the question of health insurance, not only as it might apply in the Dominion of Canada but with reference to other countries of the world. Hon. gentlemen will find on page 1573 of Hansard of last year, the report of a most valuable discussion of the whole question of health insurance. That debate was excellent in every way, and since that time we have received the report of the Sirois commission. I am sure most hon. members present have read their conclusions in regard to national health insurance. Their conclusions are that national unemployment insurance is and should be a federal responsibility, but they state most definitely that health insurance must be considered a provincial responsibility, with of course all possible cooperation by the federal authorities. The report of the commission states this at page 34:
This brief survey of the health activities of the _ municipalities, the provinces and the dominion indicates that despite the chaotic

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situation as regards jurisdiction, each level of government is performing functions consistent with its proper role in the government of the nation. Jurisdiction may overlap, but there is in fact little overlapping of functional activities. Indeed, we were impressed by the inadequacy of health services, considering the need, rather than by the existence of duplication.
And again they say this:
Finally, there are pronounced regional differences in Canada in social philosophy which are bound to affect public health legislation. Centralization of jurisdiction might not, therefore, conduce to progressive action in public health, or to national unity in general.
And again:
We think, therefore, that the present jurisdictional situation should not be disturbed, and that the public must rely on the good sense of public health officials and of political authorities concerned to effect cooperation and to work out an efficient and economical division of functions between the dominion and the provinces.
And further:
Whereas it is considered practicable in the case of unemployment insurance to adopt a uniform scheme that will apply to all provinces, it is not considered practicable in the case of health insurance, as the problems to be met are different.
A scheme of health insurance applicable to the large industrial provinces of Ontario and Quebec would not be applicable in provinces which are chiefly agricultural.
In contemplating a system of health insurance, consideration must be given to:
The topography,
The distribution of population,
The various age groups,
Distribution of members of the medical and nursing professions,
The location of hospitals,
Transportation facilities,
Number and class of industries, and a variety of factors that have a direct bearing on the type of health insurance that is practicable.
Doctor Weir, provincial health minister of British Columbia, appeared before a meeting of the dominion health council. That province has a national insurance act on its statute books, as has Alberta, but they are not in operation. He had this to say:
It would be a grave error for the dominion government, by amendment to the British North America Act to relieve the province of the major responsibility in health matters. The true role of the federal government in the health field, it seems to me, is to supply leadership, to assist in the promotion of significant health movements, to correlate-but not to legislate in health matters now falling within provincial jurisdiction.
The Right Hon. R. B. Bennett, had this to say in 1935, as reported on page 1156 of Hansard:
A national health policy involves consideration of several factors, among them being, first, the position of the individual himself-not the question of the municipalities or the provinces, but the position of the individual himself and herself.
Later in the same debate, he said:
We cannot, with one stroke of the legislative pen, wipe out of existence all the provisions made by the municipalities and the provinces to deal with this problem-their hospitals, medical service, taxation to maintain them in cities, towns and villages.
You cannot to-night, with all the power in the world, scrap the provincial services and impose upon them a federal service without the loss of millions of dollars.
That is as clear as anything can be. The difference between a national and a provincial scheme is quite simple, and I think the hon. member realizes that. The provinces have gone ahead and exercised their jurisdiction with respect to health matters, hospitalization and so on. Commenting upon Mr. Bennett's remarks, Doctor Weir had this to say:
In a word, I quite agree with the position of the present Prime Minister that the dominion government now has all machinery necessary to enable it to participate effectivelv with the provinces in the promotion of public health.
Those who have most strongly advocated health insurance in Canada have directed their representations to the provincial authorities. Just a few minutes ago the hon. member asked about the attitude of the Canadian medical association. The committee of economics of that association, on page 32 of its report on health insurance, expresses the following opinion:
The Canadian situation is such that social insurance legislation, of which health insurance is a part, must be initiated by the provinces. The dominion is free to make grants of money to the provinces adopting such legislation. This has been done in the matter of old age pensions.
The dominion could exercise considerable influence, if making such a grant, to secure the inclusion of the same desirable principles in all provincial legislation. The dominion, if contributing, would give supervision through the department of national health. Practically, health insurance in Canada will be provincial in legislation, organization and administration.
Several labour organizations made representations to their respective provincial governments. The British Columbia executive committee of the Trades and Labour Congress said this on November 2, 1937:
The government was strongly urged to give immediate effect to the health insurance act of 1936. The committee also recorded its favour for an act covering all persons irrespective of salary or other limitations.
The recommendation of the Saskatchewan executive committee of the Trades and Labour Congress, under date of November 30, 1937, is as follows:
The enactment of health insurance legislation was requested by the committee, the delegation endorsing the objectives of the state medicine league in this connection.

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From the Manitoba executive committee of the Trades and Labour Congress and railway transportation brotherhoods, on January 4, 1938, I quote:
The committee expressed its view that the time was opportune "to recommend action looking to the establishment of a system of health insurance," and urged the government to "immediately take the necessary steps to formulate and adopt legislation to this end."
The Alberta federation of labour, on January 25, 1938, stated as follows:
In dealing with subjects of health, the federation's memorandum requested the bringing into operation of the section of the health insurance act providing for medical aid and hospitalization.
The Ontario executive of the Trades and Labour Congress recommended on February 8, 1938:
Enactment of legislation "to ensure full benefits of curative and preventive medicine to all citizens of the province irrespective of their ability to pay."
On February 8, 1938, the Ontario joint legislative committee of railway transportation brotherhoods, asked:
.	.	. favourable consideration to a health
insurance measure.
It is evident from the foregoing that in the provinces these organizations realize that any scheme of national health insurance in Canada must be based upon provincial jurisdiction, and the most effective contribution which should and will be made by the federal government is by financial grants to the provinces who must be responsible under our constitution for health insurance in Canada.
All that is exactly what is happening to-day in the United States in the scheme of social security which President Roosevelt has commenced in that republic, the essential jurisdiction of the states being recognized, and federal grants being conditioned upon the actual needs existing in the various states.


Major James William Coldwell: I was going to ask the minister about another branch of activity of the department. Several years ago, I believe, the child and maternal welfare branch was reestablished. Could the minister give us some idea as to what is being done in the department to reduce infant mortality and the death rate among mothers in childbirth?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Would my hon. friend wait until we come to that special vote, because I can then give him all that information.


Major James William Coldwell: Very well. I will ask the minister at that time.


Mr. POULIOT:: The minister has just
quoted some remarks made by Mr. R. B. Bennett. I remember that, of course as a
	/
Knight of the venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem he thought fit, every time the estimates of the department of health came up, to make a speech. I recall dear old Doctor MacLaren, whose hands were shaking and trembling as he had his book before him, while Mr. Bennett was speaking fluently on the matter of health and of medicine. Mr. Bennett made a great speech on these estimates, either in 1935 or 1934, a speech which struck me as showing very clearly how superficial the man was. He made a lengthy address, speaking for forty minutes or an hour, as was the privilege of the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition. He did not forget Florence Nightingale. He related the history of medicine throughout the world, but he forgot two names, those of the most eminent figures in the history of medicine in the modern world-Pasteur and Lord Lister. Mr. Bennett knew Florence Nightingale, but he ignored Pasteur and he ignored Lord Lister. I do not see what weight can properly be attached to any quotation from any speech of Mr. R. B. Bennett on matters of health and medicine.
I have just one question to ask of the minister. Would he be good enough to tell me who are the two gentlemen who are in front of him at the present time on the floor of the house?


An hon. MEMBER:: Quite right.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Mr. Chairman, I do not believe it is customary to answer such questions. They are eminent and distinguished public servants of this country.


Jean-François Pouliot: Eminent as they are, 1
want to know who are these strangers. I do not know them. I should like to know who they are. I ask with politeness and with all deference, but I wish to know who they are. They are not members of parliament. 1 should like to know who is coming here on this floor.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall the resolution
carry?


Jean-François Pouliot: No. I want to know
that. I do not wish to be disagreeable to the minister, but I want to know who are these two goodlooking gentlemen.


An hon. MEMBER:: Carried.


Jean-François Pouliot: No, it is not carried;
and if I do not get that information, I am sorry, but I shall have to ask more questions. They must be officials of the Department of Pensions and National Health;

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otherwise they would not be here, but I should like to know who they are. I do not know them. I should like to know them, and I ask the minister kindly to tell me that.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The request is, I think, unusual. But the gentlemen are the deputy minister, Doctor Wodehouse, and the secretary of the department, Mr. Dixon.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you.


Mr. GRAYDON:: There is one matter which was discussed by the minister last night. It is reported on page 594 of Hansard. I was out of the chamber at the moment. It was in connection with the rationing of the active service forces in Canada. This is a matter in which I personally am very much interested, because during last fall and last winter in the armouries at Brampton, the Lome Scots, many of whom are now on active service with the first infantry base depot at Aldershot, conducted for a time what is known as a cooking school for the soldiers. They had out there a number of prominent dietitians from Toronto, on loan from the board of education there, and according to newspaper and other reports which were prevalent at the time, and from my own observation, a good deal of progress seems to have been made towards a better type of rationing for the troops. I believe that a good deal of work was done by way of research and otherwise, and I was wondering if the minister could tell me whether the department had taken any cognizance of it, so that the valuable progress made in army dietetics at the time could be applied to the rationing of the active service forces at present.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, there were discussions. As my hon. friend is aware, this matter, again, pertains to the Department of National Defence.


Gordon Graydon: I am sorry.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: As regards the question of rations. I mentioned just incidentally yesterday that some of the studies and surveys which were carried out in this department by some of the officers had been very useful from the point of view of analyses of the contents of rations used in the great war. As a result of the experience, certain recommendations were made. The Canadian council on nutrition and the national research council were consulted, and an officer, who I believe is Doctor Tisdale, has been appointed as adviser on nutritional matters to the Department of
National Defence. As a result of these discussions the rations were varied and increased, and in some respects fairly materially altered. Broadly speaking, that is what happened.


Howard Charles Green: Are bully beef and hardtack still staples?
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre) r I am sorry, but I cannot tell my hon. friend that.


Mr. HATFIELD:: Why was the grant of $5,000 to New Brunswick sent to the provincial secretary? Why was it not sent to the officer commanding military district No. 7, the military district for that province? No one knows of any money having been paid out for air raid precautions in New Brunswick.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The reason was that the order in council was so worded. The provincial treasurer was the agent to whom in each case the grant was sent, for the reason that in every ease we were dealing with civilian authority and not with military authority. That is the basis of this grant in every province in Canada.


Mr. HANSELL:: A little while ago a discussion centred on state medicine. While I do not wish to prolong this discussion, there was something said concerning the work of provincial governments in connection with tuberculosis. Are any of the provincial governments giving free treatment for tuberculosis cases? I understand that the Alberta government have spent nearly $400,000 in the last four years on tuberculosis. I cannot say how much of that has been devoted to free treatment, but I do understand that a considerable amount has been spent for that purpose. I believe that Manitoba also has some health services in the way of free treatment for tuberculosis. Are any other provinces giving free treatment? As has been said, people have no money to pay for treatment, and sometimes we find some man breaking a glass window and going to gaol and obtaining some medical treatment in that way. It seems to me to be an admirable thing if the provinces can give free treatment.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that half the population of Canada, is entitled to free institutional treatment at the present time, the provinces being British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario; and I believe there are some services in Manitoba.


Ernest George Hansell: I believe mental hygiene is an important subject for us to talk a little about. Throughout the last few years insanity

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has increased a good deal in Canada. If what we read can be believed, it seems that the mental institutions of the country are overcrowded. I do not see in the items, from beginning to end, anything on that subject. Could the minister tell us what relationship his department has to the provinces with regard to mental cases?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The question has always been a provincial one, but there is in the estimates a grant of
810,000	for the mental hygiene council, and the only direct responsibility of the federal government is in regard to such of our ex-service men as are looked after in the hospitals.


Mr. HOWDEN:: A good deal has been said about national health or state medicine, and since it was my privilege to introduce this subject back in 1931 and for several subsequent sessions, perhaps I should not let this occasion go by without saying a word or two in this regard. I would have spoken sooner, but I felt that in the days of the depression bread and butter were even more necessary to the people of Canada than free medicine; and now that we are faced with a cataclysmic war, I feel that our war effort supersedes all other questions in the interests of the Canadian people.
There is no doubt that state medicine is a desirable institution if it can possibly be brought into existence. There ai-e many reasons to be advanced in its support, and reasons have been given pro and con by many members of the house, so that I do not think it is justifiable to-night to delay the committee by rehearsing them. I would, however, offer this suggestion alone, that if it is to the advantage of the nation to supply the growing generation with free education, then surely the health not only of children but of the men and women who compose the nation comes before schooling. There has been free schooling for a very long time. Why should not public health, which is of greater importance, receive consideration prior to education?
I do not think I shall labour the matter further to-night, but when my good friend and old time chum the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) rose^ to put the matter before the committee again, I wished to associate myself with him in his endeavour. But this is not the time to consider state medicine; and since the Sirois commission have brought down their recommendation, my own ideas do to a large extent coincide with the suggestion they have put forward, namely, that medicine should remain in the hands of the provinces. I believe, however, that, as in

the case of old age pensions, if the federal authority see fit to advance sums of money to the provinces for distribution in this way, they might very readily perform a similar service in the matter of public health and stipulate that uniform provision shall be made for the people of Canada in all the provinces.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: On page 159 of the report of the Department of Pensions and National Health I find a reference to the service carried on by the Canadian Council on Nutrition. I wonder if the minister has any information to give the committee in regard to the findings of the council in this connection. I quote from the report:
During the year the Canadian Council on Nutrition adopted and has since revised a Canadian dietary standard. This standard outlines the requirements necessary to supply the needs of the body in regard to various constituents of food. Some of the revisions were made on the basis of experience derived from dietary surveys being carried out by the council.
Can the minister give us any information in this regard?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Last night I gave information to the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis). The reports to which my hon. friend refers will be ready in two or three months' time. Four universities are cooperating with regard to reports to be published.


Mr. COLD WELL:: I believe there are some iron lungs in Canada and the department has something to do with their distribution. Can the minister give us any information?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Lord Nuffield bequeathed one to every public hospital in the	dominion, and all were
delivered.


Major James William Coldwell: How many?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Several hundred,	I believe.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I have been listening with some interest to the remarks which have been made with regard to air raid precautions in some of the provinces. Does the minister not think it advisable that cities like Toronto and Hamilton should have some opportunity of getting to know something about these precautions? In my own city the people know nothing whatever about them. They have not the faintest idea.	Would it	not be	well	forthe department to	take steps	to deal	with	the
situation? These people may be going to other parts of the country; they may not be staying in their own cities.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Initial steps by way of recommendation with regard to vulnerable areas should come from

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qualified military officers. Ia the second place, the essential element would be cooperation of the provinces with the department in connection with air raid precautions.


Jean-François Pouliot: Here is a place where the pick-and-shovel men are better than the clerks of the branch.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Would a request
have to come from the province to have this done?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The procedure has been as follows: Where certain areas were defined by the officers of the Department of National Defence as being vulnerable, they were brought to our attention. We immediately wrote to the premier of the province asking for their cooperation, and committees were formed to carry out the necessary work.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I still think it
might be a very good idea; it might bring to the attention of certain sections of Canada that we have a war on; it would educate them. Would the minister not consider having some steps taken along these lines?


George Hugh Castleden: It seems to me that
as a result of the recommendation of the Sirois commission, the health of a good many Canadians will depend too largely on the economic condition of their province. I should like to have more information on the way in which the grants are going to be apportioned. I know that in the west, particularly where the crops are light, the health of the people is going to suffer very severely, and is suffering now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Health branch.
238. Food and drugs, $174,565.
Howard Charles Green: Will the minister explain
this vote?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is for the administration of the Food and Drugs Act, which is for the protection of the purchasing consumer by preventing or prohibiting adulteration or misrepresentation in the sale of food and drugs. Food or drugs are misbranded within the meaning of the act if the specific requirements regarding labeling are not observed, or if false claims are made for the article on labels or otherwise. A special section in the act provides for the licensing and control of the manufacture of serums, vaccines and other medicinals of a biological nature. The statute, while it provides for the seizure of adulterated or misbranded stocks and the prosecution of those who merchandize them, is not entirely punitive. Much of the 95826-41
control is exercised by preventive action in which the industry and the trade cooperate. It is only in this way that the enormous volume of these numerous and important commodities can be dealt with.
The services of inspectors and analysts are essential, with laboratory services planned on district lines. The dominion analysts number twenty-three; the inspectors, twenty-seven; laboratories are located in Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver, with inspectors at these and other points. This organization follows a definite policy planned to make the best possible use of all available facilities. The four main considerations are: first, to ascertain to what extent there is adulteration or misbranding in foods and drugs of the greatest importance; second, to arrange for correction at the source when adulteration or misbranding is found to exist; third, unless there is a menace to health, the officials of the department are not inclined to make seizures and institute legal proceedings until other methods of persuasion fail; and fourth, to avoid making the small retailer the victim when entering prosecution, unless we find the manufacturer or other party responsible for adulteration operates in such a way that we cannot obtain samples of adulterated stock on his premises. Before entering prosecution in any case, it is made certain that the offender has had previous warning. That is generally speaking the scope of the act.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Is there any regulation which requires manufacturers of food and drugs to submit samples to the department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: It seems to me that the work which has to be done under this vote is tremendous. Is the onus not put on the manufacturer of these goods to submit samples so that they may be examined; or do the inspectors have to go round from place to place and pick up samples, or do they wait until someone makes a complaint? Also, are such places as the Connaught laboratories in Toronto under inspection? There is no need for inspection there, but does inspection take place?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Surely that is not necessary. After all, the Connaught laboratories are under the observation of the government of Ontario and the university of Toronto. Are there any other places like that where



G42 COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
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we have unnecessary duplication of supervision? I think we should know a little more about this vote along these lines.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no provincial responsibility in regard to these particular functions; they are entirely a federal function.
In answer to the first part of the hon. member's question, the inspectors purchase their supplies on the open market. Of course there is a responsibility on the manufacturer and on the vendor; and if complaints are made action is taken, but generally speaking action is taken as a result of inspection and examination by the inspectors purchasing their own supplies.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Do these inspections relate mostly to food or drugs?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: To both equally.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I certainly do not think there is any need for having an inspector at the Connaught laboratories in Toronto. I do not think any inspector we could put there would be able to pass on the products turned out by that laboratory as well as the people who are there. Whoever you have there as inspector might very well be transferred to some other job. I wonder whether there are other cases of the same kind. The Connaught laboratory is practically a government-owned institution, and I am certain that they can do all the inspecting that is necessary without having duplication by this government.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: What my hon. friend says may be quite true. But there is responsibility on the federal authority to carry out these inspections. It casts no reflection on the Connaught laboratories. The inspectors go to any place where it is necessary.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Has the Connaught laboratory requested inspection?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that that has happened too.


Howard Charles Green: Have there been any cases
of false labeling of goods imported from other countries?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that false labeling has been very substantial, about ten per cent at the points of entry.


Howard Charles Green: From time to time there
has been considerable trouble with Japanese importations. Is that trouble continuing?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: It is disappearing, I am informed.


Major James William Coldwell: How many cases have
been threatened with action during the past year for contravention of the pure food provisions of the act?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have not that information under my hand, but I shall be glad to get it for my hon. friend.


Mr. McCANN:: A year ago the Food and
Drugs Act was amended so as to broaden its scope by the expansion of certain existing sections and the addition of certain new definitions and sections. The report says:
When the amendment is proclaimed and provision made for its enforcement, cosmetics will come within the scope of the Food and Drugs Act and regulations for their control will be prepared.
Has the amendment been proclaimed and what are the regulations for the control of
cosmetics?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that the legislation in regard to cosmetics has not been proclaimed. There was a second section in the bill, I believe, in regard to surgical sutures, and that has been proclaimed.
In reply to the question asked by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) I think I have some of the information at hand. I believe my hon. friend also was about to ask for an explanation of the set-up of the vote in regard to temporary assistance, and perhaps I can give the answers to these questions together. As will be seen by looking at the details of item 238, there is a reduction in several items, as follows:
Telephones, telegrams and postage.. $ 200
Equipment	 500
Sundries	 5,250
Professional and	special services. ..	300Materials and	supplies	
1,500
This decrease, however, is offset by additional salary requirements of 815,285, due to statutory increases and the employment of four additional chemists whose services are necessary for the analysis of a greater number of foods and drugs on the market and the additional work occasioned by the amendment to-the Food and Drugs Act of last year. Last year 28,050 samples of food and drugs were examined in the six laboratories of this department, as compared with 23,849 in the previous year and 23,408 in 1937-38. The services of four additional analysts were required to take care of this additional work. In addition, 50,573

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shipments of foods and drugs were inspected at customs ports of entry. That partly answers the question of my hon. friend.
Then something was said about prosecutions. the answer to which will be found on page 108 of the report of the Department of Pensions and National Health, as follows:
During the year eighty-three prosecutions were instituted. Seventy-two of these cases arose from contravention of the regulations pertaining to meat, meat products and meat byproducts. The remaining eleven prosecutions constituted infringements of the statute and the regulations made thereunder, dealing with drugs, jam, pepper, pickles and beverages. Voluntary payment of the minimum penalty and costs as provided by section 26 was accepted in seventy eases, and convictions were registered in thirteen.


Major James William Coldwell: That is a relatively small number of cases out of the many examinations that were made. Were those all the contraventions of the act that were discovered? If so, I think we are to be complimented.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think the results are obtained more by persuasion than by prosecution.


Major James William Coldwell: But there were more contraventions of the act than those indicated by the prosecutions?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I think so. Probably they would be given the benefit of a warning in the first instance.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: At page 99 of the report it states that there were 3,794 cases of adulteration or misbranding or both. It would seem that eighty-three prosecutions was a very small percentage of that number.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: They were probably warned for the first offence. If there should be a repetition, there would be nothing else for it but prosecution.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I should like to ask a question in connection with the importation of canned food products coming from countries where pure food laws are not in existence. I mentioned this point a year ago. Is any effort being made to keep out canned foods of different kinds, possibly canned meats, that are put up under conditions which do not comply with our regulations in this country? I know of things that have been found; I know of the conditions under which some foods are canned, conditions which are almost inconceivable, yet those food products reach our markets. I am wondering whether any restraint is placed upon the entry of foods put up in warm climates and shipped here.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that they cannot be marketed 95826-414
under our legislation unless they conform to the provisions of this act. Of course there are some provisions in the Meat and Canned Foods Act which also govern the situation.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: If I might pursue that just a little further, in the warmer climates canned fruits are not put up under anything like the conditions that exist here. For one thing, the employees are not dressed in keeping with our standards. I do not want to labour the point, but I assure the minister that I have seen something of the conditions which exist, yet I saw those products sold in this city last year.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Possibly that comes under the other legislation I mentioned, but I shall be glad to look into the situation.


Angus MacInnis: Just following the remarks of the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart) , how could the inspectors here know that the imported foods were put up in conformity with our legislation? Does any inspection take place at the point of production in the country of export; and if not, how would we know?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Does my hon. friend mean within this country?


Angus MacInnis: No, outside this country.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There is no control there.


Angus MacInnis: Then, when those foods reach the point of importation, how can we tell whether they were put up in a clean, sanitary manner or otherwise?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The only remedy we would have would be, first, the inspection and analysis of samples at the point of entry, and, second, a certain knowledge that does exist in regard to the standards of other countries. Of course these may not be lived up to, as my hon. friend knows.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: What is the procedure in dealing with extravagant claims made for many patent medicines?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That comes under the next item.


Mr. HOMUTH:: We have been talking
about inspection. I do not know whether the minister can answer this question, but has the Department of Agriculture a special inspection branch which would check, for instance, the contents of certain patented foods such as hog foods and chicken foods, or would that come under this department?

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Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am not certain, but my information is that they have such a branch.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: It does come under the Department of Agriculture?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: I was just wondering if we had some duplication of services, and whether, under this department, we might have an inspection service handling all these matters for the Department of Agriculture and other departments of the government. There is the possibility and the danger of overlapping, as was found to be the case in connection with motion pictures, and so on. I wonder if we have that here to a certain extent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes, we have, to a certain extent. This is my note on that point: With the understanding that our own work under the provisions of this act is to receive first attention, analyses are made for other departments of the government as a matter of cooperation, especially where such departments have no laboratory in the district concerned. In the past, work has been done for the departments of national defence, post office, national revenue, agriculture and mines and resources.


Major James William Coldwell: The hon. member for Mackenzie (Mr. Nicholson) asked a question with regard to drugs, and he was told that it would come more properly under the next item. Could the minister explain why we should have three separate divisions: first, food and drugs; then, opium and narcotic drugs, and, finally, proprietary or patent medicines, which also contain drugs. What is the distinction?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Because they are each governed by separate and distinct statutes.


Major James William Coldwell: It is according to
statute?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: In connection with canned goods which perhaps normally would come under the Department of Agriculture, would the checking of weights, for instance, come under this department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: No; it comes under the Department of Agriculture.


Ernest George Hansell: We have been talking with respect to the Food and Drugs Act, and have considered foods put into cans and
{Mr. Homuth.)
bottles, and foods otherwise packed. I have a question I should like to ask which may sound a little foolish. Perhaps I should know more about the Food and Drugs Act, but I am wondering if that act has any relationship whatever with the cooking of foods in restaurants. I assure the committee that this is not a foolish question, because I happened to find a cockroach in my soup not long ago. Surely there is something wrong when we talk in terms of pure foods, and at the same time find cockroaches in our soup.


Jean-François Pouliot: Perhaps it was a pure cockroach.


Ernest George Hansell: There are many medical doctors in the house who perhaps would say that there is some nutriment in cockroaches',
I do not know.


John Power Howden: There might be, if you had enough of them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The tragic situation to which my hon. friend has referred is the responsibility of the provincial and municipal authorities.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Health branch.
239. Opium and narcotic drugs, $46,005.
Jean-François Pouliot: I would be thankful to the minister if he would tell me at what page of the report of his department this branch is mentioned.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Page 109 of the annual report for the year ended March 31, 1939.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you. What are the qualifications of the chief of that branch?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The qualifications which would be expected in any officer of that kind: a knowledge of the statute, absolute fearlessness in carrying out the regulations based on the statute, a knowledge of the international conventions existing in relation to the narcotic traffic and similar qualifications.


Jean-François Pouliot: Those are the qualifications of a policeman and a commercial traveller. They are not the qualifications of a chemist. Is Colonel Sharman the chief of the branch?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: Not "charmant," but
"Sharman." I want to know if he has any knowledge of chemistry, and if a knowledge

Supply-Health-Narcotic Drugs,
of chemistry is necessary to discover narcotics in powders which may be sent to the department?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: With regard to chemistry I would say that our laboratories are used entirely for that purpose. In regard to the gentleman who heads the branch, I would point out that he has extensive ability in connection with conferring with the authorities responsible for law enforcement under the statute, and to my own knowledge he is highly regarded in all the provinces in Canada.


Jean-François Pouliot: This is no answer. I ask
the minister in the first instance if Colonel Sharman knows anything about chemistry, and if it is necessary for the head of that branch to know something about chemistry. Those are two questions, and I want answers to them.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have no information as to whether or not he is a chemist. My opinion is, however, that he is not. In the second place, I think adequate precautions are taken to see that chemical requirements are met in other directions.


John Power Howden: If I know anything about the matter, this department helps to run down the distribution of illicit narcotics. That is what this expenditure is for. It is a branch set up for the purpose of intercepting opium, cocaine, heroin, and drugs of that kind, which are brought into the country illegally. The work of the department is really that of a super-policeman. It carries on detective work. Colonel Sharman is an old policeman, by training; he is an efficient officer, and I am happy to say these words in his defence.


Jean-François Pouliot: Oh, that is all right. The hon. member for St. Boniface may have met Colonel Sharman socially. But I was chairman of the civil service committee when I told him to appear before us, and as the minister is reluctant to tell the story I shall tell it to the committee. In the first place the name of Doctor Sharman was mentioned regarding some-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He is not a doctor.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is of very little importance. But I am going to show who he is and what he is. As the minister will not say it, I will say it. I want to inform the committee, because I seem to know more than the department, and I seem to know more than the hon. member for St. Boniface, for whom I have the highest regard. In the first place I asked Colonel Sharman if it was necessary to have a certain knowledge of
chemistry to be the head of the opium and narcotic drugs branch, and he said, " Yes." I said, " Do you have any knowledge of chemistry?" and he said, " No." Then I said to him, " Did you ever have any experience with narcotics?" and he said " Yes." I said, " What narcotics?" and he said, " Nitric acid." Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Then I asked him-and I say all this for the information of the minister and for the information of the two good-looking gentlemen who are sitting in front of him, one of whom is blushing-


John Ritchie MacNicol: Why not look this way, too.


Jean-François Pouliot: And for the information of the hon. member for Davenport. Now, sir, the hon. member for St. Boniface mentioned that it was important to have a policeman at the head of the branch. The duty of a policeman is to make seizures. I asked Colonel Sharman if he had made any seizures while he was head of the branch, and he said " No." I said, " Who makes the seizures?" and he said, " It is the R.C.M.P."-the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I said, " Then, you are taking advantage of the work that is being done by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to justify your position?" Ho was embarrassed; he did not answer.
I asked him, " In fact, what do you do?" He said, " We did something very important. When drugs were imported from China, it was important to decipher them. We got in touch with an expert in Washington, and we saw that that expert was sent to Vancouver to decipher the telegrams respecting narcotics which were there." That was the only thing done by the branch.
Sir, this is the most ridiculous thing. What is being done by that branch? Are they doing something towards seizing narcotics? No. Are they preventing one drug fiend from using narcotics?


John Power Howden: Yes, they are.


Jean-François Pouliot: That branch?


John Power Howden: Yes, all the time.


Jean-François Pouliot: Then how is it they do not make seizures? All they do is take advantage of the work done by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, according to the evidence given by that same Colonel Sharman, when he was before the committee. Is there any chemist in the branch? I would ask the minister that question?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


Jean-François Pouliot: Who is he?

Supply-Health-Narcotic Drugs


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He is a travelling auditor and druggist.


Jean-François Pouliot: How is it that he is not mentioned as chemist in the branch?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Among his qualifications is that of being a druggist.


Jean-François Pouliot: What is his description in the details of the expenditures in connection with the Opium and Narcotic Drugs Act?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Travelling auditor.


Jean-François Pouliot: Travelling auditor?-commercial traveller! And not only that; I would ask the minister a question about the tremendous amounts of money which have been paid to that Sharman to go to the League of Nations to sign papers or treaties about narcotics. I should like to know how many times he has been sent to Geneva to attend the meetings of the League of Nations. I should like to know how many times this policeman, who is head of the narcotics branch, has been sent to Geneva and what was the cost of his trips?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He has not been sent once to Geneva by this department. I am informed that several times he was sent by the Department of External Affairs.


Jean-François Pouliot: Then he is an ambassador. He has ceased to be a policeman. First he was a policeman; then he was a commercial traveller, and now he is an ambassador. Was he on loan from the Department of Pensions and National Health? If so, how many times?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have not that information before me.


Jean-François Pouliot: Now here is a man who is a bombast, who has the qualifications of a policeman and yet is head of a branch at the ridiculous salary of $4,500. Just look at what is paid to the members of this branch which deals with opium and narcotic drugs. The list is quite long and I shall have to put on my glasses. First there is the chief of division, Colonel Sharman, who receives $4,500. Next there is an assistant chief of division. Is he a chemist? What is his occupation?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He is the assistant.


Jean-François Pouliot: I know he is the assistant to the policeman, but I want to know his qualifications.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: He was a former member of the mounted police.
Mr, POULIOT: Another mountie. Does he possess any qualifications in chemistry? The minister nods negatively. Then there is a travelling auditor. Is he a chemist? There was a scandal in connection with his appointment. You will remember that, Mr. Chairman, because you were a member of the civil service committee. It was a clear case of favouritism, as everybody knows. All this is on the official record. Next there is a principal clerk. Is he a chemist? Does he know anything about opium and narcotics? The minister nods his head. Then there are two clerks, grade four. Then there is one clerk, grade three, and one clerk, grade two. Then there is one stenographer, grade three; four, grade two; two, grade one, and one typist, grade two. I should like to know if any one of these people has any knowledge of chemistry. Can any one of them tell the difference between cocaine and Five Roses flour? When we complain about these people being appointed, we are insulted by the press.
I protest strongly about this.
There is no reason for this branch because all the work is done by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. All the qualifications that this man needs is the ability to sign his name on papers for the League of Nations. When I first complained about Colonel Sharman, the minister was not in charge of the department. I am surprised that the Department of Pensions and National Health did not take note of the time that this man was away from the department. This proves that his presence in the department was not necessary. I ask the minister if it is the custom of his deputy to allow employees to run around the world for other departments. If that is so, this deputy should be fired and replaced by a man like Doctor Yates. He has been endorsed by my hon. friend from Toronto, and I concur with him in that endorsement. It is time to get rid of a nonentity like the deputy minister here. I should like to see him replaced by Doctor Yates who is an able man. I do not see how the deputy minister gets away with it. He is paid $4,500 a year and he can leave his office to go away on trips. Note has not been taken of the time he was absent from his office. The Department of Pensions and National Health is in complete disorder and it is time the deputy minister was changed. We should get rid of the ruling class that is in that department, this class that takes advantage of the great word "health" in order to get fat on doing nothing.

Supply-Health-Narcotic Drugs


John Power Howden: I certainly have no animus toward the hon. member for Temiscouata-


Jean-François Pouliot: I have no animus, but I find it scandalous.


John Power Howden: -but I do not believe it is quite fair that he should attack a valuable official in this way in the House of Commons. I have known something of Colonel Sharman for a good many years. He is head of the narcotic drugs branch of the Department of Pensions and National Health. This is an investigating branch having to do with the illicit sale and use of drugs. During the last ten or fifteen years the illicit use of narcotics in Canada has practically disappeared. It is the work of Colonel Sharman to deal with the unfortunate victims of narcotic drugs and I think he has made a pretty fair success of his work. I do not know why this man should be attacked. I do not know him very well personally, but I know he is an old mounted policeman. He got splendid training in the force and was a senior officer before he was appointed head of this branch. He has given good service in the branch and I would not like this committee to be under any misapprehension as to the quality of his services.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have every respect and consideration for the hon. member for St. Boniface, but I protest strongly against his use of the word "attack." I am not attacking a civil servant; I am judging him. I had an opportunity of judging Colonel Sharman when he appeared before the committee of which I was the chairman. I am telling this committee exactly what is there on the official record. There has been no attack on a civil servant any more than there has been an attack on or criticism of a butler or a bootblack. I think we have a right to criticize those who receive the money which we vote here. We can say what we think of them. I protest strongly against the use of the word "attack" being applied to the remarks of members of parliament in connection with the actions of civil servants. I warn the minister to be very careful because he cannot rely on all the civil servants that are in the department. I tell him that most sincerely and honestly. I say it as a friend to a friend, and I would say the same thing to any minister who happened to be in charge of that department.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: As a new member I
have listened carefully to the remarks of the hon. member for Temiscouata, who sits on the government side of the house. As yet the minister of this department has not risen to defend the chief of this branch. I
for one will find it difficult to support an appropriation of $4,500 for a chief of a branch who so far has not been upheld by the minister.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: My hon. friend is incorrect. I did that at the outset, at the first mention of this gentleman.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The hon. member has pointed out that this man is not a chemist.


Jean-François Pouliot: He is not.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: And also that the
assistant chief is not a chemist.


Jean-François Pouliot: He is not.


John Power Howden: His duties are not those
of a chemist at all.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The hon. member for Temiscouata has placed before this committee certain information which to me as a new member appears to be quite relevant. Unless the minister can rise and say something in defence of this particular branch I shall have difficulty in voting for this item.


James Joseph McCann: I desire to associate
myself with the hon. member for St. Boniface in his defence of the head of this department and of the administrative officers of the national health branch of the department. The tirade of abuse from the hon. member for Temiscouata is absolutely indefensible and unwarranted. If he is going to vent his personal spleen-


Jean-François Pouliot: Sir, I rise to a point of
privilege, and I would like the hon. member for Renfrew South, the would-be minister of national health, to sit down. He has no reason to impute motives to any hon. member. What I said was not of rancour, was not of anger; I just said what I thought I should say, in conscience, for the public good. I want the hon. member for Renfrew South to withdraw what he said, that I have been acting on personal motives of anger or hatred against any official of the Department of Pensions and National Health. He has no right to say that. I strongly protest against it and I want him to withdraw those words. He has no right to impute anything like that to any of his colleagues.


James Joseph McCann: The hon. gentleman in
his last statement is imputing to me motives which were not intended. He cannot put words in my mouth. If he will listen until I have made my statement, perhaps he will then have some reason to talk. I say again that his tirade of abuse-

Supply-Health-Narcotic Drugs


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, I ask you
to decide the question of privilege.


James Joseph McCann: My language was absolutely parliamentary.


Jean-François Pouliot: I would ask the hon.
member for Renfrew South kindly to sit down and listen to the chair.


Thomas Vien: I ask the hon. member for Temiscouata to wait until the hon. member for Renfrew South has finished his sentence, when I shall be in a better position to decide the question.


James Joseph McCann: I say that the hon. member's tirade of abuse is indefensible, and if he is going to vent his spleen on public officials then it is too bad for the public service of this country. I submit to this committee that I would be in just as good a position to criticize the legal advisers of the Minister of Justice as he is to criticize the advisers of the national health branch. The gentleman who has control of this division is not a chemist. If a chemist were needed, one would be employed. He is an officer.


Jean-François Pouliot: I rise, sir, to a point of order. The hon. gentleman has stated his point on the question of privilege and is now continuing his speech before you make your decision on that point. I should like to know if the hon. member has the right to impute personal motives to the member for Temiscouata. That is all.


Thomas Vien: If the hon. member for Renfrew South is imputing motives, he is out of order. Although I did not follow the whole argument, I did not find any word he said there which was unparliamentary.


James Joseph McCann: Mr. Chairman, I say that the gentleman who has control of the division of narcotics is considered by those who are in the best position to know, namely, the people with whom he is dealing throughout the country, to be a competent officer, and the results of the administration of his department bear out that contention. There is nothing more demoralizing, both physically and morally, than drug addiction, and if we in this country can get officers of sufficient courage and knowledge of the drug traffic to cut down that particular trade we are going to prevent a great deal of future trouble.
An hon. member asks if so-and-so is a chemist. When these seizures are made, when drug stores throughout the country are visited and samples are taken of what is purported to be sold as a drug one hundred per cent pure, for instance, codeine and heroin and other such drugs, and analyses have been
(Mr. McCann.]
made on the spot, those samples are sent in to the laboratory which is part of the equipment of the department. I submit to you, Mr. Chairman, that the money spent in this division is well spent, and that the protective and preventive work which is being done by the narcotics division is work which should and does receive the commendation of people who are in the drug trade and of men who are in a position to pass judgment upon the work of that division.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, I do not see how the hon. member for Renfrew South can state that a layman cannot express any view about this branch. It is all composed of laymen, and therefore we are all on a common ground.
On the other hand, sir, now that you have had time to check by the book of rules, I would ask you please to make your decision on the imputation of personal motives to the member for Temiscouata by the hon. member for Renfrew South. Has an hon. member the right to impute personal motives to any other member?
Before I take my seat, allow me to say that I am wholly in favour of the fight against narcotics; but it is not carried on by that branch, it is done by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, where they have chemists who can do their own job and do not have to transfer the whole thing to another department.


James Joseph McCann: May I ask a question?


Jean-François Pouliot: Ask any question.


James Joseph McCann: Who would the hon.
member suggest should carry on this work?


Jean-François Pouliot: I will ask the hon. gentleman to sit down, and I will rise. I suggest that things go on as they are now, for everything is done by a department of the mounted police. According to the evidence of Colonel Sharman, all the analyses are made there. The analyses are not even made in the national health branch.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That is incorrect.


Jean-François Pouliot: Then there has been a change. I will tell my hon. friend that if he is right, Colonel Sharman is wrong, because when he appeared before me, Colonel Sharman told me that all the analyses were made by the mounted police. Things may have been changed and he may now have all the work.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I am informed that the hon. member's information is entirely incorrect.

Supply-Health-Narcotic Drugs


Jean-François Pouliot: Well, all right, but I was badly informed by Colonel Sharman when he made that statement to me in the committee. 1 want to tell the hon. member for Renfrew South that there are three things involved in the opium and narcotics service: first, the inspection; second, the seizure; third, the analysis, and afterwards there are reports, prosecutions and so on. But in this case it is my personal knowledge, as having had first hand information under oath from the chief of the branch himself in one of the special committees of this house, that the branch were making no seizures; and I would ask the minister if they are making any seizures.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The police make the seizures.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes. The minister is confirming what I say. The branch do not make any analyses. If an analysis is made by the department, it is made by the laboratories branch, which is an altogether different branch. Therefore, what is the use of the opium and narcotic drugs branch, which is the fifth wheel of the coach? That is the point. Moreover, half of the time the chief is not there; he is travelling to Geneva, signing papers he does not understand.
For all these reasons I do not see why we should vote such an enormous amount of money for nothing. I do not have to stand for abuse by any hon. member, because I am carrying on the fight of the common people. I should like to discuss the same matter before the electors in Renfrew South or anywhere else, and I should get the cheers of the crowd.


Mr. KINLEY:: I have had considerable
experience in the wholesale and retail drug business. I have been handling narcotics for many years, and I wish to say that the action of the national health branch in the protection of the public against the improper use of narcotics has been most stringent, and, I believe, most effective. With regard to this protective work, there is a man whose name, as I recall it, is Nairn, a graduate of the Ontario pharmaceutical college. I know that he visits Nova Scotia, and he calls on the wholesale trade and makes tours of inspection all over the country. In all our stores the mounted police come once a month and check up on the narcotic books. Your books must be kept in proper order and must be balanced. Once in a while we may hear of some drug addict and usually it is someone who has the privilege of using the drug in some way or another, but the detective work of the department is scientific and most efficient. In my opinion the National Health branch is doing 95826-42
splendid work, and the use of narcotics in Canada, as I know it, is almost entirely legitimate.
With regard to what has been said about the deputy minister, I feel as a personal friend that I should say a word. For eight years I have been president of the St. John Ambulance Association of Nova Scotia, and the deputy minister of health I have known as one of the leading officers of that organization in Canada. In all my communications and dealings with him I have found him a public-spirited man highly thought of by the order of Saint John in Canada and by members of the association to which he has given most valuable service. It seems to me that there should be some chivalry in referring to public servants. We should refrain from attacking a man who cannot defend himself, an officer who comes here to assist his minister. I believe there should be criticism where necessary, and while no doubt the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) has done a great service to the country as an iconoclast who has torn down shams, at the same time, as one coming from the eastern coast of Nova Scotia, I think it is my duty to convey a word to this official, from Ontario, who is now attacked, and tell the committee that in the dealings of the Nova Scotia Pharmaceutical Society, of which I am a past-president, and of the Dominion Pharmaceutical Society, of which I am an honorary president, we regard him as eminently fitted for the position he holds.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: The hon. member for Temiscouata has on two occasions made statements with regard to the chief of this particular division and the minister has remained silent.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I rise to a point of order. That statement is absolutely incorrect. If the hon. member will look at Hansard to-morrow, he will see that the first words I uttered were those of the highest commendation for this particular officer, Colonel Sharman, and I wish to endorse all that has been said by hon. members who have come to his defence. I have not known him long in this department, but I have known him as an individual for years. I have known him as a gallant officer who distinguished himself in the great war and who has won a national reputation for himself and an international reputation for the wonderful work which he accomplished for this country at Geneva.


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: Thank you. This statement should have been made earlier by the minister. The hon. member for Temiscouata



The Late Hon. Norman Rogers
also referred to a certain scandal in connection with another chief in the department, but that has not been mentioned by the minister. The hon. member referred to a scandal in connection with the appointment of one of the chiefs.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I have no knowledge of that.


Mr. MARSHALL:: A number of questions asked on the floor of the house could be answered by a perusal of the report published by the department from year to year. The report which has been tabled during the session deals with the work of the department for the year ended March 31, 1939, about fourteen months ago. Is it the intention of the minister to table during the present session the report for the year ended March 31, 1940?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes. This session of parliament came so soon after the end of the fiscal year that it was a physical impossibility to have the report printed in time to comply with the fifteen-day rule. However, I have every hope of having it tabled during the present session.


James Alexander Marshall: How much of the $50,780 which was voted last year under this item was actually spent during the year?


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The sum of $50,239.33 was spent last year.


James Alexander Marshall: Practically 100 per cent of the vote.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Crerar the house adjourned at 10.20 p.m.
Monday, June 10, 1940

[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN A. MACKENZIE (Minister of Pensions and National Health) presented the report of the special committee appointed to prepare and report lists of members to compose the standing committees of the house, as follows:

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Abbott	Legcr	
Anderson	Mackenzie	(Vancouver
Bertrand (Laurier)	Centre)	
Diefenbaker	MacNicol	
Douglas (Weyburn)	McCuaig	
Factor	McDonald	(Pontiac)
Fair	Mills	
Fleming	Mutch	
Fournier (Hull)	O'Brien	
Gershaw	Pinard	
Gibson	Pouliot	
Gladstone	Power	
Gray	Roy	
Gregory	Tremblay	
Kirk	Weir-29.	
(Quorum 10)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Bertrand (Prescott)	Jutras
Bonnier	Lacombe
Casselman	LaCroix (Quebec-
(Edmonton East)	Montmorency)
Castleden	Lalonde
Chambers	Lapointe (Lotbiniej
Cleaver	Lockhart
Cloutier	Macdonald (Halifa:
Cote	Macdonald
d'Anjou	(Brantford City)
Donnelly	MacKenzie
Douglas (Queens)	(Lambton-ICent)
Durocher	McCann
Eudes	McGregor
Evans	Mcllraith
Gibson	Matthews
Gillis	Mayhew
Gladstone	Parent
Graham	Poirier
Green	Pottier
Hansell	Ross (St. Paul's)
Harris (Grey-Bruce)	Roy
Hazen	Senn
Healy	Stokes
Hlynka	Telford
Hoblitzell	V eniot
Howden	Wood-50.
(Quorum 15)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Black (Cumberland)	Johnston (London)
Blackmore	Kinky
Bercovitch	Lacroix (Beauce)
Blair	Laflamme
Casselman	Lapointe (Lotbiniere)
(Edmonton East)	Macdonald (Halifax)
Claxton	Macdonald
Cleaver	(Brantford City)
Coldwell	Macmillan
Donnelly	Marier
Dubuc	McGeer
Eudes	Mcllraith
F actor	McNevin
Fontaine	Martin
Fournier (Hull)	Maybank
Fraser (North-	Mayhew
umberland, Ont.)	Moore
F raser	Perley
(Peterborough West)	Picard
Graham	Quelch
Gray	Raymond
Hanson (York-Sunbury) Ross (St. Paul's)	
Harris (Danforth)	Slaght
Hazen	Thorson
Hill	Tucker
Jackman	Ward
Jean	Woodsworth-50.
(Quorum 15)	
PUBLIC .	ACCOUNTS
Messieurs:	
Abbott	Golding
Anderson	Grant
Authier	Graydon
Bercovitch	Henderson
Black (Yukon)	Homuth
Blanchette	Isnor
Bourget	Johnston (Bow River)
Brooks	Leader
Casselman (Grenville-	Maclnnis
Dundas)	Marshall
Casselman	McCubbin
(Edmonton East)	McDonald (Pontiac)
Church	McGeer
Clark	Mclvor
Cote	Mullins
Cruickshank	Mulock
Desmond	Purdy
Ferland	Rickard
Fleming	Roebuck
Fontaine	Ross (Hamilton East)
Fournier (Hull)	Slaght
Fournier (Maisonneuve	- Thorson
Rosemont)	Tremblay
Fraser (North-	Tripp
umberland, Ont.)	Veniot
Fulford	Winkler
Gladstone	Wright-50
(Quorum 15)
STANDING ORDERS Messieurs:
Bertrand (Prescott)
Brunelle Cockeram Denis
Douglas (Weyburn)
Edwards Golding Graydon J aques
MacLean (Cape Breton Sylvestre-20. North-Victoria)
(Quorum 8)
Marier
Marshal)
McGibbon
McLarty
McLean (SimcoeEast)
O'Neill
Rennie
Ross (Moose Jaw) Stokes
Standing Committees,

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Bertrand (Laurier)
Bertrand (Terrebonne)
Black (Cumberland)
Bourget
Chevrier
Corman
Cote
Crerar
Damude
Douglas (Queens) Dupuis Emmerson Eudes Factor Farquhar
Little
Lizotte
Lockhart
Maclnnis
MacKinnon
(Kootenay East) MacNicol Maybank McCulloch Melvor
McKinnon (Kenora-Rainy River) McNiven Mills Mullins
Fournier (Maisonneuve-Nicholson Rosemont)	Nielsen (Mrs.)
Fulford Gingues Gregory
Hanson (Skeena)
Harris (Danforth)
Hatfield
Healy
Howden
Howe
Isnor
Jackman
Jaques
Jean
Johnston (London) LaOroix (Quebec-Mcntmorency)
Nixon O'Brien O'Neill Pickard Pouliot Roebuck
Ross (Moose Jaw) Ross (Calgary East) Ross (Souris)
Shaw
Sissons
Turner
White
Whitman-60.
(Quorum 10)
AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION Messieurs:
Authier Aylesworth Black (Chateauguay-Huntingdon)
Blair
Cardiff
Clark
Cruickshank
Davidson
Dechene
Desmond
Diefenbaker
Donnelly
Douglas (Weyburn)
Douglas (Queens)
Dupuis
Fair
Ferron
Fontaine
Gardiner
Gershaw
Golding
Halle
Harris (Grey-Bruce)
Hatfield
Henderson
Jutras
Kirk
Lafontaine
Lalonde
Lapointe (Lotbiniere) Leader
Leclerc
Leger
Lizotte
MaeDiarmid
MacGarry
MacKenzie
(Lambton-Kent) Matthews McCuaig McCubbin McNevin Mullins Nielsen (Mrs.) Perley Poirier Quelch Rennie Rheaume Rickard Ross (Souris)
Ross (Middlesex East)
Rowe
Senn
Soper
Sylvestre
Tomlinson
Turgeon
Tustin
Weir
Wright-60.
(Quorum 20) [DOT] 
	PRINTING
	Messieurs:
Bereovitch	Healy
Bertrand (Terrebonne) Hlynka	
Blanchette	Hurtubise
Bourget	Kuhl
Casselman	Leader
(Grenville-Dundas) MaeDiarmid	
Castleden	MacKinnon
Chambers	(Kootenay East)
Chevrier	MacLean (Cape Bi
Claxton	N orth-Y ictoria)
Cloutier	McGregor
Corman	McNevin
Damude	Mills [DOT]
Denis	Moore
Dubois	Mulock
Durocher	Nicholson
Edwards	Purdy
Emmerson	Rheaump
Esling	Ross (St. Paul's)
Evans	Sinclair
Ferland	Sissons
Fleming	. Soper
Fraser	Tucker
(Peterborough West) Tustin	
I' urniss	Weir
Goulet	White
Grant	Whitman
Green	Winkler
Halle	Wood-54.

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Bradette
Brooks
Brunelle
Crete
Dechene
Deslauriers
Farquhar
Ferron
Gauthier
Gillis
Green
Hanson (Skeena)
Hazen
Kinley
Kuhl
Lapointe (Matapedia-Matane)
Leduc
Maclnnis
MacKenzie (Neepawa)
Macmillan
McCann
McLean (SimcoeEast)
Neill
Pottier
Reid
Roy
Ryan
Stirling
Telford
Tomlinson
Tripp
Tustin
Veniot
Ward
Warren-35.
(Quorum 10)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Adamson
Authier
Black (Yukon)
Bradette
Brooks
Cockeram
Crerar
d'Anjou
Edwards
Esling
Evans
Furniss
Grant
Hansell
Hill
Hurtubise
Johnston (Bow River) Lacroix (Beauce)
Lafontaine Leduc Little MacNicol McCann McCulloch McDonald (Pontiac) McKinnon (Kenora-Rainy River) Nielsen (Mrs.) Parent Sanderson Sinclair Sylvestre Tremblay Tripp Turner Warren-35.
(Quorum 10)

Industry and the War
Blanchette
Claxton
Esling
Hlynka
Pinard
Pouliot
[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
Ross (Middlesex East)
Ross (Moose Jaw)
Rowe
Shaw
Sinclair
Ward-12.
(Quorum 7)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs:
MacGarry Maclnnis
MacKenzie (Neepawa) Macmillan MacNicol Massey McCann McNiven Fournier (Maisonneuve-Mutch
Rosemont)	Neill
Gingues	Nixon
Goulet	Roebuck
Hanson (Skeena)	Ross (Calgary East)
Hoblitzell	Ross (Hamilton East)
Homuth	Sanderson
Jean	Slaght
Laflamme	Stirling
Leger	Turgeon-35.
(Quorum 10)	
LIBRARY OF	PARLIAMENT
Messieurs:	
Adamson	Lizottc
Ayleswortb	Macdonald (Halifax)
Blanchette	MacKenzie (Neepawa)
Bruce	MacKenzie
Cardiff	(Lambton-Kent)
Casselman	Macmillan
(Grenville-Dundas)	Marier
Castleden	Martin
Cote	Mayhew
Emmerson	Moore
Eudes	Poirier
Farquhar	Pouliot
Fontaine	Purdy
Fournier (Maison-	Raymond
neu ve-Rosemont)	Reid
Gershaw	Rickard
Goulet	Rogers
Graham	Ross (St. Paul's)
Green	Sliaw
Henderson	Telford
Howden	Winkler
Hurtubise	Wood
Jaques	Woodswortli-44.
Jean	
Mr. MACKENZIE	1 (Vancouver Centre) moved that the report be concurred in.	
Motion agreed to.
Abbott
Blaekmore
Bruce
Church
Cote
Dubuc
Deslauriers
Eudes