1940-05-27

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many officers, non-commissioned officers and men, of all ranks, by provinces, compose Canada's first expeditionary force?
2.	On what dates since the war started has the government sought recruits for overseas service, on what various dates was it stopped and restarted, and on whose recommendation?
Questions


Mr. ROGERS:: 1. Strength as at May 18, 1940-Canadian active service force (overseas)-
Province	Officers	Other ranksPrince Edward Island	6	165Nova Scotia	42	1,232New Brunswick	53	1,478Quebec	166	3,992Ontario	482	10,616Manitoba	61	1,189Saskatchewan	71	1,857Alberta	88	1,954British Columbia	56	1,595Headquarters and miscellaneous	137	441Total	1,162	24,5192 (a) Recruiting began with	the mobiliza-	
tion of the Canadian active service force.
(b) Recruiting for certain units has been suspended from time to time in order to control the intake in accordance with the unit desired to be recruited.



CANADIAN ACTIVE SERVICE FORCE-THIRD DIVISION

Mr. COCKERAM:: Will consideration be given to the inclusion in the proposed third division of an Irish regiment representative of Canadians of Irish descent?


Mr. ROGERS:: In selecting units for the third Canadian division full and careful consideration will be given to the claims of all of the unmobilized militia units from coast to coast, including Irish regiments.
SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES-ANTI-ALLY PROPAGANDA*


Mr. CHURCH:: Will the government give consideration to the appointment of a committee of the house to investigate all adverse anti-allies propaganda carried on in Canada by the so-called fifth army and those who are pro-German and proRussian, as well as American channels in the air and the distribution of certain American press publications carrying items detrimental to the cause of our allies.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: May I mention that there is on the order paper a notice of motion under my name with respect to the defence of Canada regulations and the intention to appoint a committee of this house to take up all matters that might arise in connection with a study of these regulations. I think the motion is sufficiently broadly worded to cover everything that my hon. friend would wish to have included in it, as is indicated by his question, and I would ask therefore that the explanation I am now making be considered as an answer to the question.
TMr. Church.]



INTERNMENT OPERATIONS

Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	Was one Doctor Schneider, of Loekport, Manitoba, interned since the outbreak of war?
2.	If so, when, where, and why?
3.	How long did he remain interned?
4.	Was he released? If so, what were the circumstances connected therewith ?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Sept. 3,	1939-Kananaskis internment
camp. Why? See answer to question 4.
3.	Order for release signed March 30, 1940.
4.	Yes. The circumstances connected with the internment and release of enemy aliens cannot be disclosed to the public. Such disclosures would involve the publication of secret sources of information which it would not be in the public interest to disclose.


Mr. COCKERAM:: 1.	How many enemy aliens have been interned since the outbreak of war?
2.	How many have been released from internment?
3.	How many were released from internment during the period .between January 26, 1940, and March 26, 1940?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: 1.	409.
2.	145.
3.	47. The date of such releases depended largely on the time the reports of the tribunal that investigated various cases were received.


Mrs. NIELSEN:: 1.	Was one Alois N. Schneider, of St. Walburg, Saskatchewan, interned following the outbreak of war?
2.	If so, why?
3.	Was he released?
4.	If so, when, and for what reason?
5.	Was he supplied with railway or other transportation by the Department of Immigration or any other department of government?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes. The circumstances connected with the internment and release of enemy aliens cannot be disclosed to the public. Such disclosures would involve the publication of secret sources of information which it would not be in the public interest to disclose.
3.	Yes.
4.	Answered by No. 2.
5.	He was supplied with transportation from the internment camp to his home.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT

Mr. FAIR:: 1.	What is the total cost to date of the administration of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act?

Questions
2.	How many inspectors were in the field in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta?
3.	What other staff is employed in each province ?
4.	How many are employed at head office in Regina?
5.	Are all claims for bonus on the 1939 crop now satisfied? If not, how many are under consideration?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	S278,956.90 (to April 30, 1940).
2.	Manitoba, 79; Saskatchewan, 162; Alberta, 39.
3.	Manitoba, one supervisor; Saskatchewan, six supervisors; Alberta, one supervisor.
4.	52.
5.	89 townships still under consideration.



FRESH WATER FISH

Mr. DESMOND:: What is the total value of Canadian fresh water fish marketed annually (1) in Canada, (2) in United States?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: The value of production of the commercial fresh water fisheries of Canada in 1938 was $6,718,828. The value of Canadian fresh water fish marketed in Canada in 1938 was approximately $1,507,538. The value of fresh water fish exported from Canada to the United States in 1938 was $5,177,713 and in 1939 it was $5,069,953.
WHEAT BOARD ADVISORY COMMITTEE*



PREPARATION OF UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE MEASURE

Mr. CHAMBERS:: 1.	Have any appointments been made by the government in connection with the proposed unemployment insurance bill?
2.	Have the services of any persons been arranged for temporarily or otherwise to assist in the preparation of the bill?
3.	If so, what are their names, and under what arrangement have they been engaged?


Mr. McLARTY:: 1.	No appointments have been made in connection with the proposed unemployment insurance bill.
2.	The services of several persons have been utilized temporarily to prepare data in connection with the preparation of the bill.
3.	The persons assisting in the collection of data in connection with the preparation of the bill were D. Christie Tait of the International Labour Office, A. D. Watson, Chief Actuary, Insurance Department, Bryce M. Stewart of New York, Charles Bland, Chairman of the Civil Service Commission, Watson Sellar, Auditor General and employees of the Department of Labour including Messrs. E. Stang-room, J. S. Hodgson and A. A. Heaps, the latter three employees in a temporary capacity.



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION-EMPLOYMENT OF REGINALD J. JONES

Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	Was Reginald J. Jones hired, in any capacity, by the dominion government under the Prairie Fa I'm Rehabilitation Act programme ?
2.	If so, during what periods of time, and
what remuneration did he receive:	(a) in
salary, and (b) for expenses?
3.	Is Reginald J. Jones now in the employ of the dominion government, and, if so, in what capacity ?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by 1.
3.	No.


Mr. PERLEY:: When will the advisory committee to the wheat board, as provided for in chapter 53 of the statutes of 1935, be reappointed?


James Angus MacKinnon: The entire wheat situation, as well as the matter of an advisory committee, is receiving the close attention of the government.



INCOME TAX-EXEMPTION OF SOLDIERS' PAY AND ALLOWANCES

Mr. MARTIN:: Is it proposed to amend the Income War Tax Act 6o as to restore the provision whereby the pay and allowances of officers and soldiers of the armed forces of Canada was exempt from taxation?


Mr. RALSTON:: My hon. friend will realize that his question covers a matter affecting policy and something that should properly be dealt with in connection with the budget.



BACON AND CHEESE EXPORTS

Mr. LACOMBE:: 1. What was the total value of bacon exported from Canada to Great Britain during each of the years 1938, 1939, and 1940?
2. What was the total value of cheese exported from Canada to Great Britain during each of the same years?


James Angus MacKinnon: 1 and 2.
Exports to the United Kingdom
Fiscal years	Bacon	Cheese
ended March 31st.	Value
1938	
$32,622,079	$11,862,2401939	
29,441.133	11,161,4991940	
39,439,672	12,550,199



TRADE BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN, UNITED STATES AND CANADA

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: What was the value of: (a) manufactured goods entered into Canada for consumption from Great Britain and from the United States,
21S
Questions

for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940; (bl partially manufactured goods entered into Canada for consumption from Great Britain and from the United States, for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940;	(c) raw materials entered into
Canada for consumption from Great Britain and from the United States, for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940;
(d)	manufactured goods exported to the United
States and exported to Great Britain for consumption from Canada, for the fiscal years ending March 31,	1937, 1938,	1939,	1940;
(e)	partially manufactured goods exported to the United States and exported to Great Britain for consumption from Canada, for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940; (f) raw materials exported to the United States and exported to Great Britain for consumption from Canada for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940?


James Angus MacKinnon: Imports from
(a) Fiscal years	U.K.	U.S.1937	102.056,865	247.207,9561938	117.896,089	317.844,1351939	94,222,239	271,785,137Calendar year 1939.. ..	94,361,372	330,120,888(b) Fiscal years	U.K.	U.S.1937	14,880,157	22,165.7121938	15,541,599	25,384,2961939	11,263,507	18,212,805Calendar year 1939	10,101,176	25,380,956(c) Fiscal years	U.K.	VS.1937	12,570,863	124.346,9941938	11,571,083	144,051,0761939	10,147,301	122,481,845Calendar year 1939	9,544,861	141.396,622(d) Fiscal years	Exports to U.S.	U.K.1937	158,075,328	115.343,3581938	162.415,883	138,064.6861939	134,223,880	124,377,765Calendar year 1939	150,642,589	132.342,939(e) Fiscal years	U.S.	UK.1937	160,175,467	99.535,9141938	170,092.001	133.753.1561939	. 158,245,507	102,490,608Calendar year 1939	, 92.608.259	107,525,443(f) Fiscal years	U.S.	U.K.1937	. 116,763,749	193.117,4261938	. 90,623,207	137,593.8401939	. 83.469.974	98.596,638Calendar year 1939	. 137,141,199	8S 230,860
The compilation of imports and exports by degree of manufacture is not available for the fiscal year 1940 since all trade statistics are now issued on the basis of the calendar year.
*\VAR REFUGEES


Mr. BRUCE:: 1.	Has the government yet decided to relieve Great Britain and France of the burden of their thousands of refugees?
2.	If so, have they set up the necessary machinery to give this immediate effect?
3.	How many refugees do they contemplate bringing to Canada?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With respect to the first part of this question, namely, 'as to whether or not the government has decided to relieve Great Britain and France of the burden of their thousands of refugees, the answer concerns itself in the main with transportation. The decision to assist in relieving both Great Britain and France of refugees was made some time ago.
Concerning the second part of the question, as to whether or not the government has set up the machinery necessary to give this immediate effect, the answer is, as I have indicated, that in the main the government has been concerned in finding the means whereby at this particular time some of the refugees can be brought to this country.
Concerning the third question, as to how many refugees the government has contemplated bringing to Canada, the answer is that that will be a matter to be decided as time goes on.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. ROSS (Souris):: 1.	What amount has been paid by the government on account of the administration of the acreage bonus provided for under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939, (a) by provinces;
(b)	by municipalities?
2.	How much more does the government expect to pay on account of administration of acreage bonus for the year 1939?


PUBLIC SERVICE-ADDITIONS TO PERSONNEL SINCE SEPTEMBER, 1939
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	What numbers of additional staff have been taken on by the government, by departments or branches, since the outbreak of the war last September, at Ottawa and also at other centres throughout the country?
2.	What has been the total annual addition to the government payroll by reason of such additional staffs at Ottawa and also at other centres of Canada?

Questions as Orders, for Returns


ADDITIONAL OFFICE SPACE SECURED SINCE SEPTEMBER, 1939
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	What additional office space has been secured by the government in Ottawa since the outbreak of war last September, showing the names of the lessors, locations, amount of floor space secured and the annual rental to be paid?
2.	What buildings in Ottawa have been taken over or expropriated by the government since September, showing the express purpose of such and the cost involved to the government in each such transaction with all available particulars?



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION ACT-EMPLOYEES IN SASKATCHEWAN

Ernest Edward Perley: 1.. How many were employed under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act in the province of Saskatchewan during the calendar year 1939?
2. What were their names, occupations, salaries and expense accounts?



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE ACT

Mr. PERLEY:: 1.	How many inspectors were employed from the 1st of July, 1939, to the 31st January, 1940, under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, 1939, in the province of Saskatchewan?
2.	What were their names, home addresses, salaries, travelling and other expense allowances, and how long was each employed?


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: 1.	What are the names and addresses of all persons hired under the prairie farm assistance branch of the Department of Agriculture?
2.	What is the occupation of each, and for what length of time were they employed?
3.	What remuneration did they receive in the form of (a) salary; (b) expenses?
4.	What is the total amount received by the government in the special account of consolidated revenue fund for the prairie farm emergency fund?



VERMILION, ALTA., GOVERNMENT PROPERTY

Mr. FAIR:: 1.	How many lots are owned by the dominion government in the town of Vermilion, Alberta?
2.	From whom were they purchased, on what date, and at what price?
3.	How many buildings are owned by the dominion government in the town of Vermilion?
4.	From whom were they purchased, and by whom were they built, when, and at what price?
5.	Are all government owned lots -now occupied by the government? If not, by whom, and on what terms?



NOVA SCOTIA FISHERY GUARDIANS

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	What are the names of the fishery guardians employed in the fiscal years ending March 31, 1939, and 1940, in the constituencies of Shelburne-Yarmouth-Glare and Cumberland?
2.	What remuneration was paid, and what expenses were allowed to each such fishery guardian ?



COMMONWEALTH AIR TRAINING PLAN

Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: 1.	How many air-fields are there in Canada, constructed or in course of construction?
2.	How many such air-fields are under the control of the federal government; where is each such air-field located, and what was the cost of each to March 31, 1940, to the federal government for (a) land, (b) buildings, (c) additional costs, and (d) total?
3.	What have been the contributions by municipalities or private interests towards each such air-field?
4.	How many air-fields is it proposed to utilize in connection with the commonwealth air training plan, and where is each such airfield located?
5.	What is the estimated cost to complete the construction of each such air-field to be utilized in connection with the commonwealth air training plan?



GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES

Mr. MARSHALL:: 1.	When did the Canadian government first institute government annuities, and what was the original object of the plan?
2.	How many contracts were issued under: (a) deferred annuities; (b) immediate annuities, during the year ending March 31, 1940?
3.	How many commission agents are there actively engaged in writing this type of business; what are: (a) their names; (b) their length of service; (c) commission paid each agent during each of the last five years?
4.	What was the total cost of administering this act in 1939-40, and by whom was the cost borne ?
5.	How much has been appropriated to date to provide for mortality losses?
6.	Is the audit a continuous one? If not, what type of audit is carried out to-day?
7.	Has the government given any consideration to the suggestion that the Annuities Act should be administered by the Department of Insurance?
8.	How many contracts were cancelled during the year ending March 31, 1940, and what was the amount involved?



PROCEDURE RESPECTING QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

["Mr. Speaker, allow me to congratulate the government upon getting into action at last. Just a week ago to-day, from this place, I took the occasion to say, if I recall correctly, that it needed some major disaster to get Canada into action. That time has now arrived.\nMay I say to the Prime Minister and to his colleagues that the whole country will be behind him in his effort. The young men of this country who have been anxious to serve will flock to the colours in the time of Canada's peril."]
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Mr. Speaker, before leaving the order for questions may I suggest that questions 16 and 17 asked by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) and 29 and 30 asked by the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Black) should not be turned into orders for returns. Short answers could be given to these questions, and under the rules we are entitled to have answers which will appear in Hansard.
My understanding of the rule is that questions are passed as orders for returns in order to avoid encumbering Hansard with long answers, occasioned by reproducing all or parts of departmental files, and so on. I should not think that the questions I have

Questions as Orders-Procedure
indicated would come within that category; they are of a type which heretofore have been answered in the usual way.


Mr. GARDINER:: It will take at least three weeks to obtain the answer to question 17. The information must be obtained from western Canada. I suggest that if the question is to be answered as a question it be deleted for the present, rather than have it stand from day to day throughout a long period of time. The answer will be quite lengthy, even at the end of that time. The other question to which the hon. member referred is of about the same type.


Mr. MICHAUD:: With regard to question 29, may I point out that the answer will consist of a three-column return; in other words, there will be 120 names with two sets of figures against each name, and the material would fill two pages of Hansard. It is thought advisable to make it a return.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is not an answer.


Mr. POWER:: With respect to question 30, only a few moments ago the chief of the air staff made representations to me to the effect that the procuring of the information indicated in the question would take some considerable time, and he pointed out further that the staff of the department is at the present time extremely busy.
I have no objection at all to allowing the question to remain on the order paper. I believe some parts of the question, notably that part which seeks information respecting the contributions by municipalities or private interests towards each air field, would require an order for return. In any event my information is that possibly we could get the reply for the hon. member for Cumberland very much faster if it were done privately than we could by asking the staff to work on the preparation of a return. If the hon. member for Cumberland insists upon its remaining on the order paper, we will answer it, but we cannot guarantee that it will be answered within a short time. I can tell the hon. member, however, that we will give him the information privately as soon as we can get it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: On that point may I say that these are questions of public interest.


Charles Gavan Power: There is no secrecy about it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Some of these questions are of more than local interest. They are of interest to more than the hon. member who asks the question, and they should appear in Hansard in the ordinary way,


Charles Gavan Power: I have no objection to allowing the question to remain, if the hon. member wishes it.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Questions are passed as orders for returns as a matter of convenience, and I believe my hon. friend is wrong in saying the rule precludes that procedure. The rule and practice is that it is in the discretion of the government or the minister concerned to change a question into an order for return. Of course that discretion must be exercised wisely-


Richard Burpee Hanson: Judiciously.


Ernest Lapointe: [DOT]-and not abused. I remember a former prime minister reminding me that he was the judge as to that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Well, I am not so sure I agree with that. However we will not debate the point at length.



Mr. GILLIS:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and other documents relating to a request for a conciliation board for employees of the Sydney and Louisburg Railway, made by District 26 of United Mine Workers of America.


AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS
[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Agricultural Products Cooperative Marketing Act, 1939, to provide for agreements with cooperative associations and processors, and to provide also for the calculation and payment of liabilities of the minister under *any agreement and for the payment of administrative expenses.
He said: His Excellency the Administrator, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

Emergency Measures-Military and Air Forces

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I wish to
announce to the house that certain further military measures have been considered by the war committee of the cabinet and approved by the government. These measures will call for the immediate expansion of the military and air forces of Canada. This will be done by the raising of additional rifle battalions and air force personnel, and through the establishment of reserve companies of veterans, in addition to the veterans home guards already announced. Further details of these arrangements will be given by the ministers concerned.
I might add that these are emergency measures to meet the critical situation which has developed suddenly in Europe in the past fortnight. In the light of events it is necessary to have regard to all possibilities and, in so far as it is able to do so, the government is seeking to take account of every possible situation that may arise.
In announcing these measures the government believes it can count upon the wholehearted cooperation of the Canadian people to see that they are carried through with complete success. It should be understood now that with the many urgent demands we have had to meet we will not be in a position to provide complete equipment at once for every new recruit. At the same time I can give an assurance that the ministry of munitions and supply will meet our requirements at the earliest possible date, and with the cooperation of industry and labour our factories will work night and day to supply our needs.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the
Prime Minister indicate the extent in numbers to which the new forces will run?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: One of my
colleagues might answer that question.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of National Defence): So far as the military forces are concerned, in the statement made by the Prime Minister reference was made to the organization of reserve companies of veterans to supplement the veterans home guards already announced. We have not as yet determined the number of these reserve companies which will be required. That will be a matter for consultation with the various military districts.
I may say that in order to assist in the training of these reserve companies it is proposed to attach to each district headquarters a group of veteran officers and noncommissioned officers whose services will be made available to the veteran companies as required.
In addition to this, a special training course will be established which will be available to senior officers of the Canadian active service force, and a quota of veteran officers from each military district in Canada under the age of fifty years who wish to take a refresher course to qualify them for any further duties that may be required of them.
Now, more specifically as to the Canadian active service force: in addition to the third division we propose to recruit additional defence units which will include at the outset all the rifle battalions of a fourth division. These will be recruited in addition to the third division and the ancillary units required for the formation of a Canadian corps.


Charles Gavan Power: With respect to the air force, the government, through the Department of National Defence for Air, proposes to call up for service immediately some thousands of young men whose names are already on the lists of the department.
Some have been waiting for a considerable time. We now propose to call them up in order of priority of their application, incorporate them in the Royal Canadian Air Force, and give them general duties to perform. They will be taught to drill and given such education in the duties which they will afterwards be called upon to perform as craftsmen, pilots, observers and gunners, as can be given in advance of their being placed in the schools to which they are ultimately destined.
For the time being they may be called upon to do guard duty in the camps, or to carry out the training of an ordinary infantry or machine gun unit. It is possible that some of them may complain that they will not be immediately put to work in the trade or craft in which they aspire to become efficient, and may not immediately receive the emoluments to which they would be entitled under the regulations regarding tradesmen pay. But I would like to emphasize certain points in this connection.
The first is that the government believes that much of this excellent material, practically the best of our young manhood, should be mobilized rather than allowed to kick its heels about waiting until the time comes for them to be fitted into a particular trade, profession or category. Under these proposals they will
War Appropriation Bill

at the earliest possible moment be placed in such conditions of discipline and availability that no matter what circumstances arise they can usefully and promptly be employed.
I should also like to make this observation: The men whose names we have can be roughly divided into two main categories. First, those who are now employed as tradesmen in useful or essential war work. Where such is the case we shall request them to remain in their present employment for the time being. Meanwhile they will be issued with a badge of recognition indicating that they have offered their services to the Royal Canadian Air Force and are liable to be called at any time. Second, with respect to the others, that is those unskilled, or skilled but unemployed, their services will be utilized either in a military capacity or, if sufficiently proficient in their trade, in a service unit.
Accommodation is or will be made available shortly. The necessary personal equipment is in hand and the details of the plan are being worked out so that in a very short space of time approximately 5,000 vigorous, capable, energetic, young Canadians will be undergoing training for any emergency.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, allow me to congratulate the government upon getting into action at last. Just a week ago to-day, from this place, I took the occasion to say, if I recall correctly, that it needed some major disaster to get Canada into action. That time has now arrived.
May I say to the Prime Minister and to his colleagues that the whole country will be behind him in his effort. The young men of this country who have been anxious to serve will flock to the colours in the time of Canada's peril.



WAR APPROPRIATION BILL


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, May 24, consideration in committee of the following resolution-Mr. Ralston-Mr. Fournier (Hull) in the chair:
That sums not exceeding $700,000,000 be granted to His Majesty towards defraying any expenses that may be incurred by or under the authority of the governor in council during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for-*
(a)	the security, defence, peace, order and *welfare of Canada;
(b)	the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada;
(c)	promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risk or in any other manner whatsoever; and

(d)	the carrying out of any measures deemed necessary or advisable by the governor in council in consequence of the existence of a state of war.
W ith provision also empowering the governor in council to raise by way of loan under the provisions of the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, such sum or sums of money, not exceeding in the whole the sum of $700,000,000 as may be required for the purpose of defraying the aforesaid expenses, the principal and interest of any such loan to be a charge upon and payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
Mr. PERLEL :: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to know that the war veterans are to be called into action and given an opportunity to serve the country. Thousands of them are anxious to do so, and a veterans' home guard is to be set up, but I do not believe that a force of 3,000 will be at all adequate to give the protection which the force will be supposed to provide. It amounts to 250 for each military district. I am sure as regards military district No. 12 a force of 250 men will not meet the very serious situation there.
I assume that this question should be directed more particularly to the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers). I should like to ask him how it is proposed to equip this guard. Is it intended to use the units, batteries or whatever they may be, which have been carrying on since the last war in the different districts? Their officers have been going into summer camps with their men and have done wonderful service for the country in keeping these organizations intact. Are these local units to be utilized?
I should also like to know whether consideration has been given to using the various armouries throughout the country. I have particularly in mind my own province, and more specifically my own constituency. In the Qu'Appelle riding are four armouries, one each at Moosomin, Indian Head, Broadview, and Grenfell. They are splendid buildings and they have not been used veiy much in recent years, but I think they should be used now. Possibly certain small units could be located there and given training with the officers whom they have ready to take on this work. I should like the minister to inform us whether he proposes to give these local units an opportunity to serve in this way, and to utilize the accommodation which I have mentioned.
There is, of course, considerable agitation in the public mind tcnday. I do not believe it can be said that the numerous meetings which have been held in the various parts of Canada in the last two or three days have been organized by agitators. It seems to me that the public mind is shifting and changing quickly as the theatre of war and the course

War Appropriation Bill
of war are changing rapidly in these days. It is important that this guard be set up as soon as possible to meet any difficulties that may arise. I should like to have a statement from the minister with respect to the armouries in question and as to the extent to which the local units will be used.


Norman McLeod Rogers: My hon. friend has asked first as to the organization of the veterans home guards. He will recall that it was stated at the time the announcement was made that twelve of these units would be formed in the various military districts across Canada and more as circumstances should require. He has asked next as to the way in which these units will be uniformed and armed. They will be uniformed and armed as a military force; .that is the intention of the department in that respect. He has also asked whether the formation of these veterans guards will prevent the full utilization of the non-permanent active militia units, which I fully agree with him have done splendid work in past years in training for the time when their services might be required. I can see no reason why the formation of veterans home guards should interfere at all seriously with plans for the training of these non-permanent active militia units.
With the formation of the third division and the calling up of battalions of the fourth division, the number of the non-permanent active militia units not mobilized will be proportionately decreased.
As to the use of armouries, I agree that there is merit in that suggestion and I shall be glad to pass it on to the officers of the department for further consideration.


Mr. HOMUTH:: I do not wish to delay this matter unduly, but I was at home over the week-end and I made it my business to go and talk to different people in order to get some idea of how they feel about the whole situation. Several resolutions have been passed by different clubs in our district, municipal councils, service clubs and so on, and there appears to be a general fear on the part of the people of the so-called fifth column, the subversive element. The people are afraid that in the last few years various persons may have entered the country ostensibly for good reasons but really in the guise of agents of the fifth column. In other words, there is felt to be a danger of the enemy within the gates.
The general feeling among the people to whom I spoke is that one way of overcoming this trouble is to have a national registration of the men and women of the country with a view to having a list of those available for
war work. It may be possible that before very long we shall have to move mechanics from one industry to another to speed up the production of something that may be necessary, or we may have to retain in a particular industry certain men employed therein and prevent them from enlisting. Such a registration would give us a knowledge of the birthplace and nationality of every man and every woman in the country and would assist to a large extent the work of the local police and of the mounted police in looking after those who may be regarded as coming within the class of the so-called fifth column. There is a real fear on the part of the people. There are a great many of these enemies at large in Canada.	The Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) the other day said that we must be very careful lest we arrest anyone unfairly and put him in an internment camp, or bring down upon his head the condemnation of the local citizens. Personally I would rather see a dozen people unfairly interned and given an opportunity to prove their loyalty afterwards than take a chance on one of them running at large and doing something against the interests of Canada or of our loved ones. One of the most important parts of our war work-and it is only under this vote that we can ask these questions and get this information.-would be a national registration in Canada of every man and woman over the age of sixteen.


Mr. POTTLIOT:: As the hon. member knows, a census is taken every ten years, and the next census will be in 1941.
Mr. HOM'UTH: That will be too late for our war effort.


Jean-François Pouliot: Is the hon. member prepared to suggest that the census be taken now?


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Quite. '


Jean-François Pouliot: Is he prepared to have it taken this year instead of next year, and the necessary changes involved made at the same time? Of course there is a fifth column in this country; we see its activities in the propaganda that is going on. But there is also a sixth column which has not been mentioned yet; it is the column of civil servants who have no public spirit and who think only of themselves.


Mr. HANSON (Yorlc-Sunbury):: Order.


Jean-François Pouliot: I would ask the leader of the opposition to keep quiet. Many of these people were appointed by the government of which he was a member from 1930 to 1935. They were appointed under the guise of Tories
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but now they are neither Tories nor Liberals; they are selfish and are a public nuisance, and they shall be denounced in this house.
The hon. gentleman thinks that at last the government has done something. Let me tell him that at last he recognizes it. Of course, he bears illustrious initials, those of R.B., but I may tell him that he is not the first leader of the Tory opposition party that I have seen here. When I came here that great genius, the one who is the leader of the Tory party in the senate, occupied the very seat in which the hon. gentleman is now sitting, and he went to the electorate in 1925 and was defeated. He returned in 1926 and was defeated again. Very few of those gentlemen that were here then are on the front benches now; they were got rid of. That gentleman at that time was got rid of as Jonah got rid of the whale. I would not say he was thrown overboard; there is an expression I would not use in this house although it is the king's English. Afterwards I saw another gentleman who was there pro tempore, Mr. Guthrie, a former Liberal, who left Laurier on the question of conscription during the war to become a minister in the so-called union government. He was a delightful man, just as Mr. Meighen was- very delightful people; but he made a great mistake while addressing a Tory gathering which was supposed to elect a big chief for the party. On that occasion he said, " The Liberal party, whom I led in the house during the last session," and everyone laughed, because he was addressing not Liberals but Conservatives. Then they went to Winnipeg, and as chairman of that convention they appointed my dear friend the member for Davenport who asked for conscription of wealth.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


James Layton Ralston: I know that the hon. gentleman realizes, perhaps as well as any one else in this house, the extent to which debate may go particularly in committee. I know that he sometimes becomes quite enthusiastic over certain subjects and there are times when, speaking for myself, I enjoy very much listening to him. But I do want him and the committee to feel, as I am sure we on the government benches feel, that there is a war on and that we are engaged in the consideration of what is without any doubt the most important subject that will come before us at this session. I would say to the hon. gentleman, if he will permit me to mention him, and I think I can include other hon. members, as those of us on the government benches, that we ought at this critical time to stick to our knitting so far as this particular reso-
lution is concerned. It deserves the fullest and most undivided consideration possible, if we are to accomplish the object we all have in view.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Chairman, I will not insist on matters that are known to those who have studied politics in this country, but I will remind my friend the Minister of Finance of one thing, that when in the course of the discussion on this resolution some members of the other party were advocating national government nobody objected to that, and I do not see why I should not say a few words to show the futility of advocating a national government, with such leaders, when this government is doing very well. It was in answer to what has been said, not on this bill in committee but on this bill while the Speaker was in the chair, and it is exactly the same discussion because we are discussing the same bill. But I shall not say any more now until someone from the other side repeats the same argument; then I could reply to the satisfaction of every hon. member of the house, including you, Mr. Chairman.
Now, sir, I consider the matter of war just as seriously as the leader of the opposition, the Minister of Finance or anyone in this house, I consider it very seriously; on the other hand let me tell you, sir, that it is no use having long faces in the house. We are doing our best as members of parliament and we do that very earnestly, sometimes at great sacrifice, but we do it just the same for the sake of our country. I will not tolerate any jeer from the leader of the opposition or any other Tory member, whether he is a Tory or a Conservative-"Conservative" is a mild expression for an opposition member, but "Tory" is a strong expression. I will tolerate no jeers or jokes from any of them, and any one of them who jeers will have the same treatment as their former leader the Right Hon. Mr. Bennett had from me when he was leading their party. This is not a threat; it is just a warning.
I congratulate the Minister of National Defence upon instituting the home guard. Of course for a time there were returned men on guard at the railway bridges; they were paid, I am told, by the railway companies. But they should be in the service of this country and should receive uniforms and arms from the Department of National Defence. The protective branches of both railway systems in Canada should be attached to the Department of National Defence for the duration of the war. In my constituency there are many returned men ready to serve in that capacity; some of them had been wounded, some of them receive pensions, but all of them

War Appropriation Bill
had a good record during the war and are ready to serve their -country to the best of their ability. Their offer should be accepted; they are the very best men to guard bridges and public buildings. One remembers that on two or three or four occasions very young men with no experience in the carrying of rifles were put in such positions. What happened? Some were killed; some others met with accidents. They had no military training, so that they were not as competent as returned men for such positions. Therefore I congratulate the minister very warmly. And if any new recruits are placed on the home guard they should be placed with returned men who have had military experience, in order that they may get. their military education and serve the country better. The men employed by the railway systems who were guarding bridges did not wear military uniforms. Those to whom this duty is assigned should wear military uniforms with a badge to distinguish them from men who belong to the regular army. This is very important because they might have to make arrests. Being in uniform they will inspire more respect in people who come in contact with them.
I also congratulate the new Minister of National Defence for Air on the very important post to which he has been appointed. May I tell you, sir, that among the rural members I am probably the one who has recommended the largest number of young men for the air force. The Minister of National Defence knows about it. Many of them are excellent aviators and are doing their duty faithfully. Some have been turned back an account of lack of education or some minor deficiency. They could be used otherwise, as has been mentioned; they could work on the aviation fields; they might be used as gunners or in other capacities, because they are ready to serve their country.
But there is another thing, sir, concerning which I will put the department on guard. It is that at times when the medical examiners go down to the rural districts they tell those who come to enlist that if they do not pass their examination they have only to see the member in order to get a position somewhere else. This is unfair. The present Minister of National Defence for Air has admitted that it is unfair to tell them something that is untrue. If a man does not succeed in passing his test I do not see why anyone, whether it be the officer in charge or the medical attendant or anyone else on the board, should tell him that he can get a job by asking the member, when everyone knows that the member has nothing to do with the distribution of such jobs during the war. The minister will agree that my request is only fair. If 95826-15
I had time I would show a certain file I have which would prove to him that this has happened in my own constituency.
There is a very important thing that must be said about war, and it has been said by the leader of the opposition, who was not wrong that time. It was said at twenty minutes past four on May 20. "This," he said, "is a time for clear thinking and straight talking." It was a most appropriate remark. Here we are, all of us, ready to do our best. Just a moment ago I was speaking about the Tories; let me tell you, sir, that there is not a single Tory that I dislike-but I hate Toryism. If the war is carried on on the sound and sane principles of Liberalism, the principle of liberty, the principle of decentralization, which is part of the order that must reign in the army as well as in the state, then everything will be the better not only for the army but for the country. And we should never base our discussions on words. We must use words in discussion, that is evident; but we must attach more importance to facts than to words. Every discussion should be objective, not subjective. Before blaming any member of the government for anything that is done in connection with the carrying on of the war or the administration of the domestic affairs of this country an hon. member, in order to avoid committing any injustice, should try to get accurate information as to what has been going on.
Hon. members opposite may be surprised, *at times when their privileges are denied them, to find that while I do not share their views on many points I am ready to fight for the respect and maintenance of their privileges as well as my own. On the other hand, sir, there should be no party politics in this matter. Neither should there be any spirit of self-sacrifice, and perhaps I should explain that remark.


Mr. BROOKS:: Don't bother.


Jean-François Pouliot: Of course I admit that everyone is making a sacrifice to be here at this time; of course we must make most difficult decisions, but my hon. friend from Royal will understand me, as I hope other hon. members will, when I say that I do not see the use of coming here with the Isaac attitude of immolation on the altar of the country. Some members, according to their speeches, are ready to immolate themselves. That is like suicide, you see; it may be a kind of sweet death, but they will be of no further use to this country. I suggest to hon. members opposite, as well as to those on this side of the house, that they be more friendly than ever on all matters that are not strictly partisan questions. I suggest



War Appropriation Bill
that they carry on their discussions in a friendly spirit, looking to the common good; and of course if they sacrifice themselves on the altar of their country there will be nothing left of them. I want them to be here. I am never so happy as when I hear an hon. member opposite offering a constructive suggestion. It shows that the hon. member, even though he belongs to the opposition, is really trying to help this country. While I very seldom share the views of the hon. member for Waterloo South, I congratulate him on what he said a moment ago. So, sir, would it not be possible for all hon. members to your left to have a brotherly spirit in time of war and to realize that even though we do not believe in their glories of the past we are ready to work with them to try and reach a common goal for the good of this country in the future?
There is something else I should say as well. War is a very sad thing and the heart of each member bleeds when he thinks of it. But the earth will not cease to turn on account of the war, and we must look after our own problems in the most efficient way. I can assure my hon. friends on the treasury benches that the Liberal members are ready to give their support to the government in all reasonable measures, as I presume is the case with members of the opposition; but our work as members would be made much easier by the civil service. I should like to mention the action taken by the premier of one province who decided to do all he could for the local members. He notified the civil service of that province to be most obliging to all members of the provincial house when they required information or assistance, and said that any civil servant who did not comply with that rule was to be reported immediately to the premier. That, as I understand it, is the way government should operate. The civil service is maintained at a tremendous cost to the country. A member of the staff of the bureau of statistics estimated that during the last twenty years the federal civil service had cost the country over a billion dollars. We spend a great deal of money on the civil service, and we expect service in return. They must be told to respect parliamentary institutions and to be prepared to help members of the House of Commons as well as the government.
I hope, Mr. Chairman, that I will not have to say anything more along this line; I trust this warning will be sufficient for those who deserve to be named in this house and censured very severely if they continue their work of obstructing our parliamentary functions. Having said that, and hoping that

such obstacles will be removed in future, I am ready to do anything possible to help the government as long as it is on a sound basis and as long as no one loses his head.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I should judge that the hon. member's help has always been on a sound basis.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is my wish, but very often I make wishes which are not fulfilled. We will wait and see, Mr. Chairman, and in the meantime we will support the government; but if there is anything wrong in the discussions that take place in this house or if we have any more trouble with the civil service, you will hear further from me.


Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to talk politics, as did the hon. gentleman who has just sat down, though I am very glad he mentioned constructive ideas from this side of the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: One idea.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Many ideas; in fact it has been the loyal opposition that has forced the government to take action. The hon. member for Waterloo South suggested that we have national registration. With that I wholly agree, and I do not mean that we should have it in 1941. I believe we should have it immediately, for this reason. On Friday in Peterborough four Germans were found on lock No. 23. One of the Germans was a pensioner from the German army, not naturalized in this country. The four included this pensioner, his wife and two naturalized Germans. They were taken to the police station; the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Toronto were notified and they requested that the Germans be sent to Toronto as soon as possible. Half an hour later they were found at the lift lock in Peterborough. I believe that with national registration those people would be under lock and key, where they should be. That German pensioner should not be let loose in this country. I believe there should be a complete check-up, and further I think we should have a sufficient home guard to check everyone travelling on the highway. I believe we should have cards, as we had in the last war, to enable a complete check to be made at any time.
I should like to suggest to the Minister of National Defence that when he sends out specifications for 40 millimetre shell boxes, he send blue-prints with them. I understand that one firm had to send their specifications to an architect, who took two days to figure out what was what.
While I am on my feet I should like to ask the Minister of National Defence if he intends

War Appropriation Bill
to use the Prince of Wales Rangers of Peterborough as a recruiting unit. The men in that unit are well trained, I suppose seventy-five per cent of them having their matriculation papers. They have worked hard and they have full knowledge of the machines with which they would have to work. The same applies to the fourth field battery in Peterborough. I understand all the guns have been taken away from this unit. There are over one hundred trained men and non-commissioned officers available in this organization. I was talking to them on Sunday when I was home and they are very much put out over the fact that there has been no recruiting in Peterborough. One man said that there certainly has been a war movement in Peterborough because men have had to move all over the country to find a place where they could join up.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Mr. Chairman, we have heard a good deal this afternoon about the organization of the man power of the country, as well as a suggestion for registration and so on. However, I am wondering what steps the government is taking to organize the industry of the country. I think the past week or ten days have shown Canada and the allied powers that the deficiency from which we are suffering is mainly a deficiency of machines. According to bank reports there has been some decline in our factory activities during the last few months. I have before me the monthly letter for May of the Canadian Bank of Commerce which states that there was a fall in the use of our factory capacity in the month of April and that in that month we were only using that capacity to 85 per cent of its possible output. This letter states also that a slight recession is shown in the iron and steel group, a decline being shown in primary iron and steel production as well as in the production of castings, forgings and hardware.
It may be necessary that we should concentrate upon the mobilization of man power, but I am also of the opinion that we ought to be giving a great deal more attention to the organization of our industry and finance. I rose to draw the attention of the committee to the figures shown in these authoritative reports. In the event of certain things happening in Europe during the next few weeks or months and the threatened destruction of British centres of supply, Canadian industry ought to be organized immediately to render the aid which Canada can best give. When we met in this house last September to consider our participation in the war considerable discussion occurred as to the possibility of Canada becoming more or less 85826-15$
the arsenal of the British empire. But there has been continued unemployment in the country and much of our industrial capacity remains idle.
I think that those who produce essential materials for the war, whether on the farm or in the factory, ought to be guaranteed a proper return for their labour. The other afternoon I discussed the situation of western agriculture, but I notice that various labour bodies throughout the country are complaining that companies manufacturing equipment for the troops are not compelled to comply with the labour regulations in effect in certain cities. For example, I have before me a letter from the Winnipeg Trades and Labour Council which states that they have contractual relations with the Winnipeg manufacturers of shirts, pants and overalls. They state that they are given to understand by the local press that a firm in Portage la Prairie, which they classify as being unfair and unreasonable to labour, has been given two clothing contracts by the government in recent days. They charge that some years ago this firm moved away from a city in the province in order to escape regulations which were imposed. If these facts are true it seems to me that in making contracts the government should see at all times that labour, which is going to be asked to speed up and perhaps forgo some of its hard-earned rights, should be adequately protected. In my opinion these contracts should be given only to firms and organizations which are prepared to see that only the best labour conditions are allowed to prevail.
I rose primarily to point out that our industrial capacity is not being used. I believe the time has come when this country should be organized as they are organizing in New Zealand and Great Britain. We heard over the air the other night that the Prime Minister of New Zealand had announced that following the example of Great Britain, finance and industry in New Zealand would be taken over by the country and mobilized for the war effort of that sister dominion. I am strongly of the opinion that we should consider steps of a similar nature. As I say, we hear about the mobilization of men but to my mind it is far more important that we should mobilize our industrial strength. Perhaps sooner than we think this country will be called upon to render substantial economic aid, which at the moment we are not prepared to give. I should like to ask the government if they are considering steps along these lines and if we may expect an announcement in the near future.
War Appropriation Bill


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend has referred to two subjects, one dealing with industry in the broader sense and the other with regard to labour clauses in agreements. With reference to the matter of our industrial production I know that my hon. friend will not expect me to detain the committee by describing the steps which were taken at the time the war supply board was organized, when the war supply board itself was given the widest powers to organize industry in order to anticipate prospective needs in so far as they could and endeavour to provide for them. The board went on to operate under Mr. Wallace Campbell. As hon. members of the committee know, Mr. Campbell, an industrialist himself, had associated with him men who were prominent in industry and who, I am sure, took all the steps they felt they possibly could in order to see that industry was organized. I should also remind the committee that surveys of industry had already been made and the potentialities of various plants right across the country ascertained.
Later on the Department of Munitions and Supply, which was provided for at the short session in September, was formed. What had been forecast in September came about, that is, the war supply board completed its organization and then it was decided to give this branch of the service the importance of a full and complete ministry. The Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe), is minister of this department as well but, as the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) has indicated, arrangements are being made so that the Minister of Munitions and Supply will give his entire time 'to the work. I realize I may be too Dptimistic, but I do not think that anything ras been left undone by the Department of Munitions and Supply in the way of speeding up industry in order that it may be prepared for whatever demands may be made upon it. A few days ago, before the resolution reached the committee stage, the Minister of Transport made a statement which indicated clearly what the expectations were regarding industrial production and the reason that some of the expectations were not realized. Nevertheless I can say to the committee that before the emergency arose, as well as since, increased efforts have been made to see that industry is organized in the best possible way to meet the demands which, as has been quite properly suggested by the hon. member, we may anticipate under these suddenly changed conditions. We will do everything that men can do to see to it that Canada does her full part in connection with industrial expansion.
I realize that those statements are general, but they are thoroughly earnest and sincere.

The hon. gentleman who is acting as Minister of Munitions and Supply is not in his seat today. I am sure if the committee desires further information in respect of this point he will be glad to give it. An opportunity will be afforded when the bill which is to be introduced is in committee.
I say this because, as pointed out already by *the minister, the doors of the Ministry of Supply are always open. He wants to give the house and country all the information which can possibly be given. I know that in the Ministry of Supply are men who are there for one purpose, and one purpose alone. They are not there as partisans or even as civil servants; they are not there as people who have taken jobs, in the sense of obtaining salaried positions, but they are there as private citizens who have had experience and who have come in in an endeavour to help produce the greatest efficiency in the department.
The hon. member has touched on two branches of activity which are vitally important. One branch is connected with the day to day purchases of supplies which from time to time have to be obtained to equip our forces. In connection with that branch of the work, as pointed out by the minister, contracts to the extent of something like $225,000,000 have been let. In all there are about 17,000 contracts. Then there is the other branch, one which is perhaps more important now, namely, the matter of the organization of industry, and seeing to it that raw materials, machinery and things of that kind are available in order that whatever demands may come we shall be able to meet them. May I tell the committee that I know of unusual, indeed extraordinary, steps which have been taken during the last ten days in the matter of government administration? They were steps which were regarded as necessary in order that we may try to ensure that essential supplies and raw materials are available.
I think the committee will find that in other respects the Ministry of Munitions and Supply has been just as zealous.
I am sorry I cannot inform the hon. member respecting the matter of the labour clauses in the agreements. I feel certain that the clauses are those prescribed by the Department of Labour. However I shall be pleased to get that information at a later time, because I notice that the Minister of Labour is not in his seat at the moment.


Mr. LEADER:: The hon. member for
Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) referred to an industrial firm in my home city of Portage la Prairie and quoted from evidence he had received from Winnipeg indicating that the

War Appropriation Bill
firm in question had violated some of the ethics connected with labour regulations. I want more evidence than the hon. member has submitted to-day. I should like to know the name of the firm and the name of the person in Winnipeg who protested. At a time like this we should not split hairs; we should be prepared to use not only the factories in the large industrial centres but also those scattered throughout the smaller towns. One of the greatest evils in Canada is that too many of our industries have been centralized. I say they should be scattered so that the smaller cities and towns may have a chance.
I presume the hon. member was referring to the Green manufacturing plant at Portage la Prairie. I went to some trouble to find out if that institution could have some work. They submitted a tender which was accepted. I would say to the hon. member that I have heard no complaints respecting the labour regulations, and I believe Portage la Prairie would be glad to see more of these factories established in their city.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The hon. member for Waterloo South (Mr. Homuth) lhas directed what appears to me to be an important question connected with the situation which has developed within the last few days. Is the Minister of National Defence prepared to recommend national registration of man power in Canada, and a comprehensive survey of the availability and suitability of industrial activity to help win the war? I believe the hon. member is to be congratulated upon having brought the matter before the committee, and in my view the minister should make a statement with regard to it.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I was not aware whether the question had been directed to me or to another member of the government. As a matter of fact national registration affects not one department alone but all departments having to do with the military forces and the mobilization of industrial activity. The question of national registration has engaged the attention of the government and has received the careful study to which it is entitled.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: The reason we have a crisis to-day is that certain nations in Europe have regimented the bodies and souls of their people. We can fight them only if the people who are arrayed against that vicious philosophy are prepared to stand for the same kind of regimentation. At the time of the last war we had national registration. People were told to appear at certain points within so many days for purposes of registration. The same could be done again, if the government were prepared to notify the people through the medium of our newspapers and the radio.
We have just gone through an election. The returning officers in Canada have practically complete lists of all people over twenty-one years of age in the various constituencies. If the government said that those people must appear within a certain time for purposes of registration, and that they would be given a card, a copy of which could be filed by the authorities, the whole procedure could be carried out in no more than two weeks.
The people of Canada are in a temper wherein they want to do things. They want to know what jobs they can do best. They want to know where they can be placed to help in the war effort. At the risk of repetition I would point out that through the national registration we would have an opportunity of checking up on those influences in Canada which within a very short time might becom-very dangerous.


Mr. ADAMSON:: The Canadian Institute o Mining and Metallurgy, the Engineering Inst! tute of Canada and the Canadian Society ol Chemical Engineers were all registered shortly after the beginning of the war. At that time every technical man voluntarily registered to serve his country wherever he could be of service.
A few days ago I attended a meeting in Toronto of the Engineers' club, and from what the chairman said I understand that only two of all the engineers in Canada had been called up. May I point out to the Minister of Finance and to the Minister of National Defence that the entire technical population of the Dominion of Canada has recorded itself as ready and willing to serve. I would suggest that the government give immediate consideration to the voluntary effort made by those people.
Then there is one further point to which I would direct attention. In my constituency over the week-end I was besieged by people giving me information about the state of the production of armaments in Canada. Is the minister prepared to tell the committee how many Bren guns have been produced, and-unless he would consider this as not in the public interest-whether the Bren guns so far produced have been satisfactory? I may add that it will be one of the happiest moments of my life if the minister can stand up and say, "We have a large quantity of Bren guns, and they are satisfactory." One thing more: Are we producing any 25-pounder guns, any anti-aircraft guns, and what is the production of small arms ammunition and of field ammunition?
As I sense the feeling in Canada, the public are vitally interested in actual production, in
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what is going on. The allies are crying out for help, and if the minister can say that we are doing something, nobody will be more pleased than myself.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I thank my hon. friend for the manner in which he has put his questions to me. He will understand that I would not wish to give him specific answers to such questions until I can be very sure that my information is correct. I made that proviso, as it were, when I spoke in the course of the debate a few days ago, that I would try to answer such questions as I could when they were put to me, but if I was not certain of the answers I would hold them in reserve until the necessary information could be secured.
I would not like to say to my hon. friend that it would be in the public interest to give all the information that he has requested, but I shall take note of the questions and shall advise him if they can be answered in this house. It may be preferable, if it does not appear that the information should be spread upon the pages of Hansard, that I should give him the information myself.


Olof Hanson: I should say that the minister could at this moment give, as a general statement, information as to whether we are producing Bren guns.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I shall be very glad to make a statement upon that matter, possibly this evening.


Mr. SENN:: There is one phase of Canada's war effort which has not been very fully discussed in this debate. I was greatly interested and pleased with what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) has had to say about the way in which our war effort, in the production of munitions and war supplies of different kinds is being conducted But there is another class of production which is very important, namely, that of foodstuffs for the allied armies and for people living in the countries that are at war. It may well be that foodstuffs will be one of the deciding factors of the war.
Last Thursday evening the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) spoke in this debate. I believe his reason for speaking was to outline the manner in which the government has been attempting to organize agriculture for the production of war materials in the shape of foodstuffs. I listened attentively to his statement. He told us that an agricultural supplies board had been formed, and with it certain committees or boards had been appointed by the provinces. He also told us that a great deal of propaganda had been disseminated in the country by way of press reports and pamphlets.

I know a number of the men who are on these boards. I regard them highly; I believe they are efficient in their particular line; but I feel, in common I believe with many other members as well as with a great many farmers, that if we are to produce to the fullest extent the classes of commodities which will be required, we must give more attention to agriculture. It takes a considerable length of time for the farmer to produce. After he has made his plans a year or more must elapse before he can place his goods upon the market. Mother Nature cannot be hurried and cannot be changed in any way. Springtime is the time of seeding, and when springtime is over no plans for speeding up agriculture in the required lines can be made before another year.
For some years the farmers of Canada have been treated to a surfeit of pamphlets; indeed things have come to the stage where in a great many cases when pamphlets come to a home they are dumped in the wastepaper basket or used for some purpose other than a source of information. Frankly, I do not believe that Canadian farmers know to-day exactly what is required of them or will be required of them in the future. Only one body can ascertain these requirements, namely, the government, and its agricultural supplies board, who are in constant communication with the allies overseas and no doubt receive recommendations from time to time as to what should be supplied in the future. Perhaps those requirements will be changed from time to time with changing conditions. But I believe that the government and the agricultural supplies board could have gone much further in their efforts to acquaint the farmers with what will be necessary if we are to produce the foodstuffs which will be required in days to come in Great Britain and France and even in our own country.
The minister spoke about the bacon board and about the sale of bacon to Great Britain for the year ending, I believe, October 31. 1 regard that agreement as a very good one. It fixed a price for the year for Canadian bacon in England, and I believe that when it was announced the impression went abroad that the farmers were to receive a stated price for their live and dressed hogs. Unfortunately for the farmer-unfortunately, I think, for the country as well-he has not been receiving a fixed price for some time past, and at the present time every indication seems to be that prices will be again lowered or he will be well below the nine cents which the farmer was supposed to receive. Nothing in the world will discourage production more than to receive prices which are below the cost of production. Last fall, when the farmers

War Appropriation Bill
were apprised of the price they would receive, they made certain commitments and certain arrangements; and they are finding out now that when their finished product comes on the market they are receiving well below the price they expected to obtain.
Again, the Minister of Agriculture announced the other day that a sale of cheese had been made to the British Isles. I am not going to discuss at the moment whether the price was adequate. As nearly as I can figure, it will mean that if the farmers receive the full benefit of that price they will be getting something less than a dollar per hundred for their milk, or well below the cost of production if we can believe the estimates and the reports of surveys which have been made by government officials from time to time. I will not pursue this any further except to say that the farmer is not in a position to continue to produce at a loss. He is just as loyal as any other man in the community or in the country. He does not want to reap big profits at this time of the nation's danger. But he must be in a position to produce without taking a loss.
In his speech the other night the minister gave figures which showed that the price of farm commodities is well below prices of other commodities, and there has been very little relative change since the war began. To-day the farmer is not in a position to produce at a loss; in too many instances he has not any cash. If he remains in this position, if his product continues to be sold at prices less than he expected and was led to believe he would receive, there will be an immediate effect on production: the farmer will produce less of that particular commodity. I suggest to the minister and to the government that the time has come when definite plans should be put before the farmers of this country. More than that, the time has come when they should have some definite assurance that they will receive a reasonable price for the products which they are asked to produce; otherwise the organization which has already been effected will not be satisfactory.
I would ask the minister to enlarge upon the statement he made the other evening if he is in a position to do so. He told us about the agreement made with the British supply board for the sale of bacon. Was any agreement made between the Canadian packers and the bacon board or the Department of Agriculture as to the price that was to be paid the farmers of Canada for live hogs or dressed hogs? Is there any guarantee that the price for cheese at Montreal, announced the other day, will be uniform for the time
that this contract is in force? It goes until October 31, or later; I am not sure of the date. I am not asking for this information in any critical spirit, but I think the farmers are entitled to know, and if they do know and are given an assurance of some kind I believe they will carry on with better heart and grace than otherwise.


James Garfield Gardiner: In answer to the last question, whether the price for cheese of 14 cents for the first grade, 13i for the second and 13 for the next grade, is to continue for a given length of time, I can only say that it will continue for the full period of the agreement. The only change that could be made would be a change upward as a result of a further conference with the British government. The price stated in the agreement is the lowest price that will be paid during that time, but from all the conditions that obtain I rather fancy that it will be the price prevailing throughout the length of the agreement.


Mark Cecil Senn: Is that the price paid to the shipper or to the farmer?


James Garfield Gardiner: The price which the
farmer will receive back at his own farm will be between 13 and 14 cents. This is the price on board at Montreal.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is to the shipper?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes. It is the price the dairy board receives from the food ministry at Montreal. As regards the question of the agreement on bacon, I attempted to explain the other night that the price which the government have secured through the food ministry of Great Britain works out at $18.01 per hundredweight of one hundred pounds. The price which was guaranteed at that time to the packer was $17.29, which left 72 cents to be put into a fund to be used for paying on storage or to assist in giving a better price to the farmer later on. The developments of this spring which made it necessary, because of conditions on the local market, to reduce the price to consumers as well as to producers within Canada have brought about an adjustment of the arrangement with the packers. The packers are now paid half a cent per pound, or 50 cents per hundredweight, less than they were receiving during the winter months. That means that 50 cents more per hundredweight is going into the fund which will be used later for one of two purposes, either to pay for storage or to pay the producer a greater amount for his product later on.


Joseph Henry Harris: Mostly storage.
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James Garfield Gardiner: Very largely storage, as conditions exist at the present time.
The other question was whether in the agreement any arrangement was made to pay a definite price to the farmer or the producer of hogs. In the agreement no arrangement was made to pay a definite price to the farmer, but I may indicate what the hope was-it would be a fairer way of putting the matter than to say it was stated by anyone that there would be a set price to the farmer. It was hoped when the agreement was being negotiated that it would be possible to arrange for a definite price to be paid to the farmer, and when the agreement was made, when the negotiations were proceeding between the board and the packers, it was considered both by the board and by the packers, and I believe by those who represented the producers from different parts of Canada on the advisory committee, that under all the circumstances it was best to proceed on the price which then prevailed on the local markets across Canada, which was a little higher than could be arranged for if the price had been based on the amount that was being paid to the packers for bacon under the agreement. They allowed that price to go on and it continued at about that level until approximately the first of April of this year, so that there was no reason, down until that time, to give the matter further consideration, because the price could not have been set higher than it was on the local markets.
I cannot state all the reasons why that price was a little higher, but one of the main reasons was the importation of United States pork products into Canada. That probably turned out to be one of the main reasons why the price went down eventually on the Canadian local market. There had been a volume of United States pork products brought into Canada, and that probably had as much to do with reducing the price in the home market as anything else, unless it were the larger production of hogs in Canada during the year than anyone had expected, in spite of the information which we had last fall.
Another question raised in the remarks of my hon. friend was whether the farmer has had sufficient information and direction in the production of foodstuffs. If we are to answer the question upon the same basis as that upon which wre are attempting to decide whether or not things were done properly in other directions, then we shall probably decide the question upon the basis of the results, and I would call the attention of the committee to two tables which I placed on Hansard the other evening, showing the results. These tables answer the question fairly well. At

page 167 of Hansard there is one table showing that in every single product, with the exception of the number of sheep and lambs, and honey, the production of farm products from one end of Canada to the other in every branch of the industry was very much greater up to December 31, 1939, than the preceding five-year average. Later on I placed on Hansard, at page 178, another table showing stocks of farm products in storage around May 1. This is after eight months of war. After eight months of war there is in storage more of every farm product, except veal, cheese and potatoes, than there was on the same date in 1939 or 1938, and more of most products than at the same date in 1937.. These two tables answer the question fairly conclusively. In the first place the production is high, and in the second place the amount of the different food products in storage is very much higher than usual. In other words, we have the food produced and we have it in Canada for marketing. If one desired to go further he might ask, Is not the matter of the high storage due to the fact that we have not sold the products?


Richard Burpee Hanson: To lack of consumption.


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, that is the assumption. On page 172 of Hansard will be found another table showing the volume of food products that we sold to the United Kingdom in each of three years. Of wheat, for example, we sold during 1939-40 from September to March inclusive, 54,886,146 bushels in the form of wheat and flour. For the previous year the figure was 57,361,894 bushels, and for the year before that it was 46,459,977 bushels. So that during those eight months, the period of the war, we sold nearly as much as in the preceding year. I would not compare this year with 1937-38, because that was one of the lowest wheat yield years we have had for a long time, but this year compares favourably with 1938-39 when there was more than an average crop.
Of barley and oats our sales to Great Britain were very low as compared with those of the previous year.
Of bacon and ham our sales were 1,613,143 hundredweight in the eight months September to March as against 950,000 hundredweight in the year before and a little larger amount in the year before that. So we have sold to Great Britain during this eight-months period nearly double the amount of the preceding year, and we still have more in storage.


Mr. ROWE:: How much United States bacon is in storage in Canada at the present time?

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James Garfield Gardiner: There is very little, but there is some Canadian bacon that would not have 'been there if we had not brought in United States pork. It is largely pork that is brought in and some of the pork brought in is converted into bacon here, but there would not be any considerable volume of United States bacon or pork products in Canada in storage.


William Earl Rowe: Did I rightly understand the minister to say that the consumption of bacon and pork products in Canada had been less in recent months?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I did not mean
to say that. I do not think it has been less.


William Earl Rowe: I wondered whether the effect of the United States fat bacon had been to spoil the appetite of people for bacon.


James Garfield Gardiner: No, I think the consumption is at a higher rate at present than for some time past, probably due to the programme put on to increase consumption.
Then, as to exports again, lard is down, dressed poultry is down, butter is down slightly, cheese is up. The export of cheese to the British market is considerably higher than for the same period a year ago. Apples are down from 2,490,861 barrels in 1938-39 to 1,178,802.


Joseph Henry Harris: If the minister has the figures, would he put on record how much lard is down?


James Garfield Gardiner: Lard is down from
74,115 hundredweight to 13,525 hundredweight.


Major James William Coldwell: What are the figures for butter? The minister said it was slightly down.


James Garfield Gardiner: The butter figures are greatl}' down, from 88,800 hundredweight last year to 1,972 hundredweight. I should have said eggs are down slightly; they stand next to butter in the table. Eggs are down from 1,129,888 dozen to 903,240 dozen.
Cheese is up from 459,136 hundredweight to 539,411 hundredweight. Apples are down to a little less than half of what they were in the preceding year. But canned apples are up from 8,978,215 pounds to 24,375,945 pounds, and canned pears are up from 6,032,000 pounds to 21,927,000 pounds. Total canned fruits are up from 18,000,000 pounds to 54,000,000 pounds, or about three times as much. Total canned vegetables are up from 52,000,000 pounds to 138,000,000 pounds. Honey is up from three million pounds to five million pounds.
So of many of the food products Great Britain has been taking about the usual 95826-16
amount and of some much more than the usual amount, of others considerably less. But I think these tables fairly well indicate that the farmers have been producing the food products that are going to be required, that these food products are in store in considerable volume, and that we have been selling most of the important food products to Great Britain as formerly. I believe, moreover, that the consumption of most of the food products in Canada has also been increased. This would indicate the answer to the question. The farmer has been informed.


Mark Cecil Senn: It is gratifying to me, as I
am sure it must be to all hon. members, that we have in store at the present time such a large volume of necessary food supplies. There is no doubt in my mind that all will be needed. Undoubtedly a large number of those who have been producing food in Great Britain and in France will have entered the armies and will not be able to produce in the former quantities. I am not entirely satisfied that the figures the minister gave in regard to production in 1939 indicate that the agricultural supplies board has stimulated the farmers to produce, because this production was well under way, in fact complete, before any agricultural supplies board was thought of. The war did not break out until last fall, and every provision made last year for agricultural production was made much earlier than that.
What is required of the agricultural supplies board is that it guide the farmers to produce in the right channels. The minister referred to canned apples. We have a very large surplus of canned apples at the present time, and there is little prospect of their being disposed of by the time the next crop comes along. I feel strongly-and I only say what I am saying for the purpose of offering suggestions, not from the point of view of criticism at all-that the agricultural supplies board and the Department of Agriculture should go much further than they have hitherto in guiding farmers in the back districts as to what should be produced. The greatest incentive to greater production that can be provided is to give the farmers a reasonable guarantee that they are not being asked to produce at a loss; that the prices they receive will be at least commensurate with the cost of production. I do not believe there is any other industry in Canada manufacturing war munitions that is being asked to produce at a loss; in fact, they all have some kind of guarantee as to the prices they will receive. In certain branches of agriculture prices were pegged in days gone by and will probably be pegged again, and there is no reason why other vital branches of the indus-

War Appropriation Bill

try, producing goods that will be needed in Great Britain before the war is over, should not be in the same position as other industries and certain branches of the agricultural industry that have their prices pegged at the present time.


James Garfield Gardiner: As to the first point,
that the agricultural supplies board was not in existence in 1939, I would remind the committee that the members of the agricultural supplies board are the assistant deputy minister and the directors of the different divisions of the department.


Mark Cecil Senn: And they are all good men
too.


James Garfield Gardiner: These men were all
on the job all through 1939; in fact, they were appointed to the supplies board because they had been carrying on similar activity during the preceding years.


Mark Cecil Senn: The minister would not suggest that they have not increased their efforts in any way in that regard?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; they have increased their efforts, but those efforts were sufficient even before that time to improve production very much. I agree that farmers should have a reasonable return for their products, and I think the other table I placed on Hansard, which appears at page 168, will bear me out when I state that someone has been fairly successful in at least improving the prices of farm commodities since the beginning of the war. I do not know that the Department of Agriculture can claim all the credit; nevertheless all our efforts have been in that direction, and prices have improved.


Major James William Coldwell: How many of the products exported to Great Britain have been sold on the basis of an agreed price? I understand that there have been discussions, and I am wondering if it would not be possible to have this large surplus, which is carried largely in the interests of the safety of Great Britain, looked after under some joint arrangement between the two countries so that the people who produce these commodities could be guaranteed a reasonable return. My constituency is largely composed of wheat growers. They do not want a price that will cast a burden upon the country, but they do feel, and I think quite properly, that they should be assured a reasonable return. I have heard that attempts have been made to negotiate a price, and that figures have been suggested to this government by Great Britain, in regard to wheat. In that country, of course, they guarantee their own producers a certain price. We are anxious to give the farmers some guidance

as to the quantity they should produce, and at the same time I think they should be guaranteed a reasonable return for their labour.


James Garfield Gardiner: Since the beginning of the war there has been more or less constant discussion between the British food ministry and representatives of the producers on this side in regard to both quantity and price. There has been a constant discussion with respect to all cereal products, particularly wheat, between the wheat board and the cereals board of Great Britain. No definite Drice has been arranged between the two, but the price paid from time to time has been as a result of those negotiations and offerings made by the wheat board in order to meet the requirements of the cereals board in the old country. As hon. members know, a set price has been arranged for bacon, ham and other pork products enumerated in the agreement. That has been operating since the middle of last November. Negotiations have been proceeding since early last September with regard to a set price on cheese, but that price was arranged only within the last week or ten days, following the discussions which were carried on all through the winter months. There have been discussions also with regard to apples, respecting not so much price as volume. Finally, the British food ministry was persuaded to accept about fifty per cent of the quantity of apples they took during the preceding year. That has resulted in the sale of British Columbia apples for export being as high this year as it was a year ago if not indeed a little higher. The sale of Nova Scotia apples has been considerably lower, while of course in any year only a small percentage of the Ontario apples goes to the old country.
The figures I gave a few moments ago illustrate fairly well what has been happening in connection with canned apples. As one hon. member said a few moments ago, we have a considerable quantity of canned apples on our hands. That is largely on account of the fact that we dealt with the situation that existed last September by arranging to can or dehydrate a very considerable part of the Nova Scotia pick. Those canned and dehydrated apples are now in the possession of the government, and negotiations for their sale of course will be carried on by the government. During the period intervening we have been exerting every possible influence to have as much as possible of the Nova Scotia crop consumed in the form of canned and dehydrated apples.
During the greater part of the winter, negotiations have been carried on with regard to the price and quantity of eggs to be sold

War Appropriation Bill
to Great Britain. A few weeks ago it was finally agreed in connection with eggs that it would be better to allow the market to operate much as it has been operating, and I think the results have been fairly satisfactory. The other product we have been discussing with the British food ministry to a considerable extent is poultry. Shipments of poultry to the British market were interfered with by the outbreak of war. We have not as yet negotiated a final agreement in connection with eggs, butter or poultry, but continuous discussions have been going on with regard to those products.


Mr. CASTLEDEN:: Is the minister prepared to give any assurance on behalf of the government that there will be minimum prices for farm commodities, at least for the duration of the war?


James Garfield Gardiner: The only answer I can give to that question is to say that I am not prepared to give an answer at the moment.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister certainly is giving us more information now than we were given in the statement he made the other evening. I was interested in his reply to the hon. member for Haldimand and also in his statement that the price of wheat had been discussed with the British authorities as far back as last September. To-day, in reply to a question appearing on the order paper in my name, the Minister of Trade and Commerce stated that the general policy with respect to the marketing of grain was being considered by the government. To me that seemed a very unsatisfactory answer. There is no doubt that farm products, particularly wheat, will play a very important part in the winning of the war. As several hon. members have stated, I believe the farmers are just as loyal and just as anxious to cooperate as any other group in Canada, but in view of what they have come through in recent years I believe they should be considered from the point of view of what is a fair price.
At this stage I do not intend to ask the government for any general statement as to their policy in the marketing of grain. Probably we shall have an opportunity later on, perhaps on going into supply or at some other time, to have a general discussion on this important question. But since that matter has been coupled with this motion, we might consider it to-day as well. In the chamber at the moment we have two members of the subcommittee of the cabinet, although I am sorry the Minister of Trade and Commerce is not present, because I believe he is also a member of that subcommittee. A short time ago the Minister of Agriculture said that the
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question of the price of wheat was considered last fall. I understand that as soon as war broke out, Great Britain appointed Mr. James Rank as the sole purchaser of grain supplies for both Great Britain and France. Negotiations took place at that time, and I understand the British government asked this government to close the grain exchange and said that if they did so, a price would be agreed upon for the duration of the war. The ministers are in the chamber; they will know about the matter and perhaps they could give the committee some information with respect to it. I was informed, I believe by a reliable source, that that is what happened, but that the government would not agree to the closing of the exchange at that time.
I think this committee should have a report of the operations of the wheat board since last August. I think we should also have a report from the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) who was invited to go overseas to discuss this all-important question with the British authorities.	If the
reports in the press are correct, the matter of a price for Canadian wheat was discussed at that time. A recent report in the Winnipeg L ree Press is to the effect that a price was considered, as well as the closing of the Winnipeg grain exchange. We should have a statement as to the permanent policy of the government. A report appeared in the Leader-Post of May 22 to the effect that the subcommittee of the cabinet was considering the question of closing the Winnipeg grain exchange. If that matter was being considered, we should have a statement as to what decision was reached. I think this committee should be informed also of the source from which this recommendation was received, whether it came from the grain exchange, from the producers, or from other organizations in western Canada.
If the exchange is to be closed, I think the public should be told at this time. Certainly the producers should know about this important action. The government should set a fair price for wheat for the duration of the war. I understand Mr. Rank is still the sole purchaser of supplies for Great Britain and France. Then I think a higher price than 70 c nts should be set. Possibly the government is contemplating bringing down legislation at this session to amend the act. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) made many promises during the campaign and the western producers are expecting him to carry out at least some of them. The producers of western Canada will not be satisfied with 70 cent wheat. I believe they would agree to the closing down of the grain exchange
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for the duration of the war, but the guaranteed price should be higher than 70 cents. We should first have a report from the Minister of Mines and Resources on his conference overseas, and then we should have a statement from the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) with respect to the permanent policy that will apply.


James Layton Ralston: Mr. Chairman, naturally the government wants to give the fullest information possible. The hon. member for Haldi-mand (Mr. Senn) was inquiring as to the policy of the government with regard to supplies, and I believe the question asked by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) arose out of the other question. I suggest to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle that he is opening up a rather large subject, one which is at least collateral and not directly related to the bill before the committee. I want to ask him, through you Mr. Chairman, if he will permit that matter to stand for discussion on its own merits until that opportunity arises? The question which he raises is quite different from that raised by the hon. member for Haldimand, that is to say, with regard to the quantity of supplies on hand. No one has any doubt that there is on hand in Canada plenty of wheat for some time. The manner in which that wheat will be dealt with is already a matter of policy and has been dealt with by statute.
The hon. member refers to the possible closing of the Winnipeg grain exchange. It is almost to be expected that a matter of that kind would be under discussion at a time like this. As the hon. member knows, the price of grain has been pegged on the Winnipeg grain exchange. The hon. member asked for an outline of policy, but all I can say to him at the moment is that the grain exchange has not yet been closed. That does not say what the policy of the government may be next week, the week after or when further consideration is given to the matter. The question of the price to the producer is one which involves dealing with the Wheat Board Act as well as other statutes. Perhaps he will permit this to stand for discussion on its own merits until after we have dealt with the resolution at present before the committee.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister's request is a reasonable one, but I should like to see it coupled with an undertaking that ample opportunity will be given at some relevant stage of the session, which I hope will be at a not too distant date, to discuss the question raised by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley). There is no doubt

that this question is of the greatest importance to the farmers of western Canada. Will the minister or his colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon), be good enough to give an undertaking that at an early date opportunity will be provided to discuss this whole question?


James Angus MacKinnon: At the very moment the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) first raised this question, I was in conference with the members of the wheat board who have been called to Ottawa. I am in a position to assure the leader of the opposition and the hon. member for Qu'Appelle that the opportunity for discussion which they ask for will be provided at as early a date as possible.


Ernest Edward Perley: May I say to the Minister of Finance that I brought up this question at this time only because of certain remarks made by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) with respect to wheat. I would refer also to the answer given this afternoon by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon), to my question on the order paper asking when the advisory committee to the wheat board would be reappointed, which answer 1 think was most indefinite. That question did not involve the whole wheat problem, and I do not consider I was treated very courteously. However, as an undertaking has been given that we shall have this opportunity, I will let the matter drop at the present. I hope that opportunity will not be too distant.


James Angus MacKinnon: In making the answer referred to this afternoon, I was as definite as I could be under the circumstances. I wanted to make the answer as complete as possible, but I could not be more explicit without intimating the course taken by the conversations with the officials advising the department.


James Layton Ralston: The hon. member for Qu'Appelle has taken a couple of what I might call sideswipes at the Minister of Agriculture, and I point out that my colleague is restraining himself until the proper time.


Ernest Edward Perley: He does not need to be restrained.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think he can take care of himself.


Mr. LOCKHART:: I should like to implement what the hon. member for Haldimand (Mr. Senn) has said. Considerable concern is being expressed by farmers who have large acreages of tomatoes, to take that crop as an example. As a result of the food commissioner

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in Great Britain limiting the licensing for export, the acreage of tomatoes might be materially reduced. In line with the questions asked by the hon. member for Haldimand, I would point out that the farmers are wondering whether it would be better to grow oats and peas to produce bacon, and whether it would be better to divert large amounts of acreage to other crops. I know there is a tremendous acreage of tomatoes in the constituency of Prince Edward-Lennox; and if those tomatoes cannot be exported in the form of tomato juice and canned tomatoes, I believe some direction should be given to the farmers in Canada indicating what might best be sown.
However, it was not my intention to discuss that point in detail, although it was forcibly brought to my attention over the weekend. I rise at this time particularly to enlist the attention of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers). Over the weekend I made an extensive survey of some matters which I brought briefly to the attention of the minister last week. I know he is giving serious consideration to some of them.
I believe I am correct when I say that the protection afforded our great power units, the great Welland ship canal transportation system -which, incidentally, carried nearly 12,000,000 tons of merchandise last. year-is somewhat jeopardized at the present time. I believe that this information would be useful to the Minister of Finance, as well as to the Minister of National Defence.
After carefully investigating the matter during the last few days, I learned that our efficient Royal Canadian Mounted Police are in charge of the canal system. At some points only one man is stationed, while at other more vulnerable points there are two. I repeat that the protection is entirely inadequate, when we give due consideration to the dangers involved. When we are dealing with a transportation system over which 12,000,000 tons of the produce of Canada have been transported, it is of the utmost importance that that system be protected at its vulnerable points by more than one or two men. I draw this point particularly to the attention of the Minister of National Defence.
I pass on now to a further discussion of points which have been raised in connection with the power plants. I understand that those plants are under provincial jurisdiction. I do not know whether the minister is satisfied with the protection being given, but in the light of the influx of tourists which we may expect any time-and I take no exception to the operations of the director of the travel bureau-I am wondering whether the federal government, the Minister of National Defence
or some other constituted authority will give careful consideration to the matter and decide whether the protection is adequate. Rumours are constantly coming to my ears, and some of them I wish to discuss with the minister. We realize that the great Welland ship canal, and the power centres in and about Queenston and Niagara Falls from which run important transmission lines serving thousands of factories in all parts of Ontario, must be given adequate protection, even at the cost of large sums of money.
The provincial police are small in number, and in the light of present conditions I cannot see why these public utilities should not now be under the supervision of the Department of National Defence or some other federally constituted body. In my view it is high time that this matter was given serious consideration. The placing of one man, two men or even three men within a few hundred yards of the great hydro-electric power system at Queenston Heights is very small protection indeed when we compare it with the great preparation made at the Sault locks by the United States government. They have gone to great lengths, and yet they are not at war. I draw the minister's attention particularly to the preparations which have been made at the Sault locks by the United States government.
In view of the "fifth column" activities, reports of which have been circulating in the past few days, and some of which have come to my attention, I urge most seriously that immediate steps be taken to see that something more definite is done in connection with the protection of these power and transportation facilities. We realize that the Welland ship canal offers one of the greatest conveniences for the conveyance of the wheat crop to the markets of the United Kingdom. I urge upon the minister those points which were brought to my attention, and those of a more secret nature I shall bring personally to the attention of the Minister of Justice.
I urge most seriously that consideration be given at once to increasing a hundredfold the guards at vulnerable points, and that the government utilize the camp grounds at Niagara-on-the-Lake to which, I was told Sunday morning, only one or two units have come. The grounds at that point offer the best facilities and sanitation, and could be utilized profitably. If we are to permit a great influx of tourist traffic across the border at Queenston, Niagara Falls and Fort Erie, conditions may develop suddenly with which two or three guards would not be able to cope. Inadequate lighting facilities would add to the difficulties of the guards, and there are other features with which I shall not trouble the committee.
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I ask the minister to check what has been done, and to do something which will remedy the situation and allay the fears of the people in that great peninsula who live at the seat of vulnerable points and in the midst of vulnerable systems which within five minutes of crossing the international border could be attacked with ease. I plead that the minister make a careful check of the situation.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The federal government was in communication with the provincial government last week with respect to more adequate protection of the hydro-electric plants along the international boundary. As a result of those discussions, certain military dispositions were made over the weekend. May I add that the district officer commanding has been in touch with the attorney general of Ontario. I shall be pleased indeed to carry out the suggestion made by the hon. member and to watch most carefully the situation he describes.


Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: During the last few days I have been in receipt of a large number of resolutions from various bodies in Saskatchewan demanding that the government do something towards controlling the nazi influence within their province. The people of Saskatchewan are not given to hysteria; but having regard to the releases of interned aliens that have taken place in the last few weeks, they feel that all is not well with the administration of the alien enemy problem in that province.
I point out that to-day there are areas in Saskatchewan where nazi activities are continuing in a manner which would not be credited elsewhere in the dominion. People in the province are asking for action. The legion and other public bodies of all kinds are asking that something be done, and they make the request because several men who were interned have been subsequently released. The government has not taken the public into its confidence or given any indication of the reasons why the releases were permitted.
May I bring one instance to the attention of hon. members: A man at St. Walburg was interned shortly after the outbreak of war. He was known in that locality to have been engaged for a considerable time in nazi activities. After a period of internment he was released, and until ten days ago occupied the position of a justice of the peace, charged with administering British justice in Saskatchewan. The question that we, representing constituencies in that province, ask is this, what will the government do with regard to the alien enemy problem? Upon whose recommendation does the government act in permitting the release of aliens who have been interned?

The people of Saskatchewan, I repeat, are not hysterical, but they want measures to be taken at once to offset and control this menace in their midst. One of the suggestions offered is that there should be recruited to full strength immediately the various military units in that province. I take as one case in point the condition existing in the city of Prince Albert. There we have two militia units; one, the Prince Albert and Battleford volunteers, which owes its inception to. the Riel rebellion; the other, a battery of artillery, the 44th. Both units have had excellent records in competition with others throughout the dominion. Yet they have not been mobilized. There is a large armoury there, within the constituency of the Prime Minister, which is not being used except for minor training purposes. The men who enlisted in that city during the past winter had to go to Saskatoon, where proper housing facilities were not available. They were housed at the fair grounds in that city under conditions that did no credit to the government. Yet in Prince Albert facilities were available. The only way we can successfully recruit for the army is by establishing esprit de corps, which will arise only when local units are mobilized and trained where enlistment takes place.
I ask the Minister of National Defence whether, in view of the critical situation- I call it critical advisedly-arising from subversive activities in Saskatchewan, he will consider the immediate recruitment to full strength of the Prince Albert infantry and artillery units. Otherwise there will be no protection in northern Saskatchewan against enemy activities.
The veterans' defence scheme is a good one, but 3,000 men are inadequate, representing one man per mile from the Atlantic to the Pacific. We need the militia units. If orders are given to recruit them in Prince Albert, the difficulty which has arisen in the past to retard recruitment, namely the fear on the part of people in that city that their own units are to be taken elsewhere, will disappear, and within a few days there will be available, not only for home defence, but in preparation for overseas service, at least 1,000 men. I ask the minister to give consideration to the suggestions I have offered.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I shall be very glad indeed to give consideration to the suggestions. I may say that the units which have been raised thus far in Saskatchewan and elsewhere have been based upon the non-permanent active militia units, and it is always a question of the choice of the units which shall constitute a particular division which is being called up. At the present time, if my recollection is

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correct, there are two infantry units from Saskatchewan, namely the South Saskatchewan regiment and the Saskatoon Light Infantry.


John George Diefenbaker: The Prince Albert regiment is the oldest in the province with a great tradition of service to its credit.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I am quite sure it will
receive the careful attention of the district officer commanding, in the constitution of the new division and other formations.


John George Diefenbaker: Would the Minister of Justice mind answering the question I asked with reference to internment?


Ernest Lapointe: As to the question of internment and release, there seems to be a misconception of how alien enemies, who were interned, obtained their release. When war broke out, many people were astonished at the speed with which so-called aliens were interned-the very first day.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I was not
astonished.


Ernest Lapointe: Well, the hon. member knew that the matter had been well arranged by the police. Precautions had been taken weeks and even months before war broke out, on the assumption that some trouble might arise. But of course there was not much evidence against some of those who were so arrested and interned; they were apprehended because they were suspected to some degree. A tribunal, indeed two tribunals, were constituted for the purpose of investigating and studying each case which was appealed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Who were
on the tribunals?


Ernest Lapointe: There was one constituted of three members: Judge Smiley, of Ottawa; Mr. O'Meara, Assistant Under-secretary of State; and Mr. Fortier, legal officer of the Department of Transport; and they went around the country. In some instances judges were engaged. I know that Mr. Justice Cannon sat in Quebec, and I believe Mr. Justice Hyndman sat in the west. Those tribunals sent in their reports on the cases which were involved when an appeal had been taken and representations made. These reports were made to the Minister of Justice. In every case, before a release was signed, the whole of the evidence, the report and the file were submitted to a special interdepartmental committee, of whom one, Mr. MacNeill, is a leading law officer of the Department of Justice, and another, Mr. Robertson, is counsellor in the Department of External Affairs. This committee, again, reports to me, and it is on these reports that releases or refusals are agreed to.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I
ask whether the procedure which is adopted in England has been carried out by these tribunals here? That is, were the arrested parties brought before the tribunals in person, and were the police who made the arrests represented there to give their side of the case? I understand the procedure in England was very thorough. A great man died on his way to attend one hearing. There were important men on these tribunals. I have nothing to say against the civil service, but on those tribunals were not civil servants but men of judicial character, experience and ability. What is the procedure?


Ernest Lapointe: On the first tribunal I mentioned, there was a gentleman of judicial capacity, Judge Smiley, who was strongly recommended. I do not think he has ever been a political friend of the present government. The other evening I was not present in the house, but subsequently I read in Hansard an insinuation or a suggestion on the part of an hon. member that party politics had crept into this matter. May I say that I would not be worthy of the position I occupy if I allowed party politics to play any part in a question of this kind. The hon. gentleman who made the statement, when he comes to know me better, will not repeat such a thing. There is no party politics in the matter. In fact, representations have been made to me with regard to the internment of alien enemies by hon. gentlemen on both sides of the house, and those representations have received exactly the same consideration coming from one side as from the other, and that is none at all.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: My right hon. friend
assures the committee that no alien has been released except through the tribunals?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes,
except perhaps in one or two instances where there was illness and the man was sent to his family.


Mr. DAMUDE:: I do not always agree with my hon. friend the member for Lincoln (Mr. Lockhart), but on this occasion it seems to me that the inadequacy of the guards on the Welland ship canal and those who are looking after the hydro development in the Niagara peninsula is a matter that should receive the most careful consideration from the government in order to see to it that the great Welland ship canal, where the locks
War Appropriation Bill

are situated in the constituency I have the honour to represent, and the hydro development are strictly guarded.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Before the resolution
passes, may I ask the Minister of National Defence a question in connection with the provision for promoting the continuance of industry. In 1938, I believe, the minister, speaking on the question of the relief of unemployment, intimated that the intention of the government at that time was to assist in promoting industry with a view to providing employment. Sitting here, I have listened to statements from various members, and I suggest that the minister has an opportunity under this resolution to carry out the intention he expressed on that occasion and to assist industry. Last evening I heard the President of the United States making a very strong point with regard to the rehabilitation of military equipment in the programme of the United States government, intimating he would go a long way towards financing industry in the development of new military equipment. That has been the plan of the government of France in the last three or four years, and the same thing is true of Great Britain. These governments did help industry to develop military equipment, because military equipment changes so rapidly that no manufacturer can afford to carry such development. I submit that we should be manufacturing tanks in Canada. A few days ago I made that suggestion, and one of the ministers thought it would be quite an undertaking, but there are many large plants in Canada which could, without too much difficulty, engage in the manufacture of tanks provided they received some assistance from the government. On Saturday afternoon I listened to the Prime Minister of Great Britain, and one of the things he especially requested from Canada and other parts of the empire was a supply of tanks. In the manufacture of tanks in Canada this government would have to assist any manufacturer in the initial cost of production of engines, tools and so forth.
I was wondering whether under clause (c) of the resolution the minister could not do something to assist Canadian industry to produce tanks, and, through that, further the development of iron production in the country. I do not know how far we have to go for iron to-day. We do get some from Minnesota, some from Wisconsin and some from Bell island in Newfoundland, but in Canada there are mines that could be developed. I read of a recent discovery in northern Ontario where it is said iron ore of the same high grade iron content as that produced in Minnesota is available. Under this provision the government could do

something to encourage large industry in Canada-because small industry could not possibly undertake the work-to manufacture tanks. The first part of the work would be the melting of iron and rolling the steel. We have large blast furnaces in Midland, Hamilton and Sydney. Near Windsor we have one that has never been operated. The blast furnace still stands and the steel plant is idle. I have been through that plant lately. In fact, I made a survey of about two hundred industries in Canada in four months last fall in order to find out exactly what Canadian industry could do. This particular plant I speak of might be ideal for the production of tanks. If under this clause something could be done in this direction, it would go a long way towards assisting the allies and would develop the steel industry of Canada through the manufacture of tanks.


Mr. COLD WELL:: My hon. friend speaks
of opening up mines. It occurs to me that we have a large amount of excellent material lying around the country which could be gathered up and assembled. It would provide the best sort of material for this purpose. I refer to the enormous quantity of scrapiron that remains even after we have exported a great deal. I bring that to the attention of the committee, and I suggest that some arrangement should be made to utilize this vast supply of scrapiron, which I am informed is the finest kind of material.
That is not what I really rose to suggest. There is one phrase in this resolution on which I should like some explanation. It is the phrase:
(c) ... or indemnity against war risk . . .
What is meant by that? Does the government propose to provide indemnities for industry in the event of the war ending? If, so, I submit that agriculture should be indemnified as well as industry. I do not suppose it means insurance; it reads, "insurance or indemnity." Might we have an explanation of what this phraseology means?


James Layton Ralston: The purposes, of course,
are as wide as the phrase itself. What was probably in mind is what is mentioned there, insurance or indemnity against war risk, relating in most cases I would think to the transportation of goods.


Richard Burpee Hanson: By sea.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, "promoting the continuance of trade, industry and business communications, whether by means of insurance or indemnity against war risks or in any other manner whatsoever." I think the insurance or indemnity against war risks is what the drafts-

War Appropriation Bill
man primarily had regard to, what we understand as the assumption of war risk by way of insurance or indemnity against loss.


Major James William Coldwell: Nothing beyond that?


James Layton Ralston: I do not think there was probably anything more in the mind of the draftsman, but I realize that the words are wider than that because of the last phrase "or any other matter whatsoever."


Mr. McIVOR:: I am sure the Minister of National Defence will not overlook the head of the lakes when he is organizing his home defence. We have hydro-electric power there at Cameron falls and the Kam Power Company at Kakabeka falls, but more especially we have the greatest grain storage in the world to-day. In fact, we are called the bread-basket of the world, and I am sure that the Minister of National Defence in his thorough way of doing things will see that that bread-basket is adequately protected.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I am sure we were all very much pleased to hear the Prime Minister this afternoon state that we are going to raise more troops in Canada. I would ask the Minister of National Defence what system he is going to develop for enlisting and recruiting. It occurs to me that we have a very heavy contract on our hands. I was surprised to read in the Ottawa Journal, I think it was, on Saturday that one of the units belonging to the second division and leaving Ottawa for camp was still two hundred men short. If the same condition prevails in every other unit in the second division, we are far short of the number of men required to fill up that division. On top of that we are organizing a third division, and now it is announced that we shall have a fourth division.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Infantry units or rifle
battalions.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Well, that would mean sixteen thousand men or twelve thousand men, I presume?


Norman McLeod Rogers: No, that would be nine regiments.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Nine infantry units would be nine thousand men, and again five thousand men for the air force, the corps troops as the minister mentioned the other day, and four or five thousand men for the navy. It simply shows how in the past nine months this matter of recruiting has been very much neglected. Now we have it piled up against us, and it seems to me it is going to take a great deal of organizing ability on the part of the Department of National Defence to obtain these
men in Canada to-day. The units we have already organized are not up to strength; when the first division went overseas at the last minute we had to provide men for them. I should like to hear, and I am sure the country would like to hear from the minister, what definite plan we have at last evolved to obtain men at such short notice, or if we have a plan at all.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Perhaps I should answer my hon. friend now, and if he requires more detailed information I can obtain it later. In the first place I would not agree with him that we have experienced difficulty up to the present time in recruiting such units as have been authorized.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: At that point might I ask the minister then why it is that these units have not been recruited up to strength, although for instance it is two or three months since the second division was formed?


Norman McLeod Rogers: If my hon. friend will permit me to proceed, I think I shall be able to give that information too. The first division was recruited to strength when it went overseas, and as my hon. friend who has had military experience is aware, it also carried its first reinforcements. Subsequently further reinforcements have gone over; in fact we have four months' accumulated reinforcements for the first division. A few days ago I placed a return on record on that question, and I think there is no reason why I should repeat it.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: That would be the ten per cent pre-battle casualties reinforcements?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes. Since then, we have sent forward additional reinforcements from the depots to the training centres and thence to the holding units in England. That is the method of reinforcement, a method which has been worked out most carefully by the Department of National Defence in communication with Canadian military headquarters in London. My hon. friend may be assured that the arrangements we have made to provide reinforcements have received the approval of Canadian military headquarters in London and of the general officer commanding the first Canadian division.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How many reinforcements have we for the first division in England at the present time?


Norman McLeod Rogers: That is not a question I should answer categorically at the present time. I believe my hon. friend will find on Hansard for the other evening the actual number of reinforcements raised up to the
War Appropriation Bill

present time for the first division. If he has any difficulty about the figures, I shall be glad to provide any information.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I think it would be four or five thousand.


Norman McLeod Rogers: As to the second division my hon. friend said certain units went to camp below strength. I should like to satisfy myself definitely on that point before I answer the question. If he will refer me to the unit which he stated was below strength, I will take note of it. I can say that the second division units during the winter months were not brought fully up to strength for reasons that I think were entirely sound. We could not give all second division units complete and satisfactory training in their winter quarters. That could be done satisfactorily only when they had opportunity to carry out full unit training in summer encampments. But we gave authority to the second division to bring their various units up to strength and have recently also given them authority to add reinforcements. As already stated by the Prime Minister, we propose to see that reinforcements for the second division are expedited. I assure my hon. friend and the committee generally that we realize the importance of ensuring a continuous stream of reinforcements to the divisions that have been mobilized and will in due course go overseas.
My hon. friend also asked regarding the method of recruiting the division which has been more recently authorized, the third division, and such other units as have been indicated by the Prime Minister this afternoon. After a most careful study by officers of the department, it has been thought wise to proceed broadly in the same manner as we recruited the first and second divisions. In other words, the department receives from the district officers commanding nominations of certain units which should comprise the particular divisions. Those nominations are gone over in the department very carefully in order to see that there is also a satisfactory regional distribution of those units, infantry, artillery, engineers, et cetera, across the country. These units, once finally selected, are through the district given authority to be brought up to strength. I am bound to say at once, with respect to the methods of recruiting we followed for the first and second divisions, that there was not always a satisfactory spread of the recruiting areas.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I agree absolutely, and I have put it to the officers of the department that in what we do now we should widen

the areas of recruiting. But my hon. friend who has asked this question, and who has had long militia experience himself, knows that these militia units were localized to a considerable extent. If I might take one in his own province, the Carleton and York regiment, the very name of the regiment implies that it has its establishment in a restricted area.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The whole
west side of the province, from the bay ol Fundy to the Quebec boundary.


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is a large, but nevertheless a restricted area. My point is that in further recruiting for units of the third division we should widen the area from which men may be enlisted, and I can assure my hon. friend that this question is definitely receiving the attention of the. officers of the department at the present time. I can go further and say that I think it is also desirable to set up recruiting offices in a larger number of cities and towns than was the case with the first and second divisions. I received personally quite a number of complaints in connection with the recruiting of the first two divisions, to the effect that men were obliged to go some distance to recruiting centres in order to offer their services, and of course when a man was rejected he had to make the return journey, entirely at his own expense. I am not going to suggest that we should set up recruiting offices in all the cities and towns within a province, but certainly I shall see to it that we distribute the recruiting facilities on a wider basis than has been the case heretofore.


Mr. ESLING:: I think across Canada there will be the warmest commendation of the Prime Minister's statement concerning intended recruiting activities. It has been indicated that the responsibility will rest largely with the officers commanding the military districts. That is only natural, because it could hardly be expected that the minister or his officials would know the exact geographical condition in each province. In southeastern British Columbia we have perhaps the most populous communities of that province with the exception of the coast cities. We have the armouries; we have the medical officers; we have experienced officers who distinguished themselves in the last war, perfectly capable of acting as recruiting officers. My point is that these young men in the interior who are anxious to offer their services to the country have been and are now compelled to pay their transportation expenses to the coast, a distance of perhaps six hundred, seven

War Appropriation Bill
hundred or eight hundred miles. The minister can readily appreciate the discouraging effect this has had upon men who have been unemployed. I want to ask the minister if he will not take a personal interest and see to it that these young men in southeastern British Columbia are given an opportunity to enlist in some of these units which are to be recruited to strength.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I shall be very glad indeed
[DOT]to do so.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Some of the Peterborough men had to travel 135 miles to try to enlist and were turned down. Would it not be possible for these men to be given passes on the Canadian National Railways in order that they might return home?


Richard Burpee Hanson: The government should pay their transportation expenses.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: Yes, the government should pay the transportation both ways. This situation has discouraged recruiting; in fact, it has really chilled it. I believe everything possible should be done for those men who are willing to give their lives for us, and I think transportation is one thing with which they should be supplied.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Perhaps a better way to [DOT]deal with that situation is to bring the recruiting offices closer to the men instead of taking the men to the recruiting offices.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I quite agree.


Gordon Knapman Fraser: I agree also. The men from Peterborough had to go to Picton, Kingston or Toronto. Some of them, after standing in line all day, were turned down or perhaps did not even get into the recruiting office. They had to get back the best way they could, and some of them went without food for two days.


Mr. GERSHAW:: I should like to direct attention to a few factors which have not been mentioned so far. One is that on the farms, in the smaller towns and in the cities throughout the country there is a tremendous amount of scrapiron and discarded material which in some countries would be of very great use, and which might be of use in Canada as well.
Another point is that in the west, particularly in southern Alberta, conditions are eminently favourable for the training of airmen. There we have wide open spaces without trees, fences or power lines. We have stretches of
level prairie without stones or sloughs, conditions which are considered ideal for this training. Visibility is good, with very little fog and very low precipitation.
In the same district is one of the greatest petroleum producing fields in the world, with some ninety-seven producing wells which could supply the entire requirements of the commonwealth air scheme without interfering in any way with service to domestic consumers. We have a tremendous potential wealth there; the source of supply is secure. I believe that with these ideal conditions and this great petroleum supply, super airmen can be trained in that region.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Mr. BLACK (Cumberland):: Mr. Chairman, before this resolution carries, perhaps I should say a word with respect to the feeling in my constituency and throughout a large section of Nova Scotia. The citizens in that part of the country are dissatisfied with the progress which has been made up to now in the war effort. There are strong misgivings with respect to what has been done. I do not wish anything that I may say to be misconstrued as being critical of those who are carrying responsibility at the, present time, especially the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) or the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), both of whom come from my home town.. The county of Cumberland has great pride in the fact that two of its citizens occupy front benches in this house and are carrying heavy responsibility at the present time. I want to offer them all the cooperation of which I am capable. That was my pledge to the electorate, and I give that assurance now.
There is a feeling among a large number of the electorate that some restraint is being placed upon the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Defence and that, if this restraint were removed, more progress could be made in the war effort. The Minister of Finance has a wonderful record, and he enjoys a great deal of public confidence in my constituency and throughout Canada because of the achievement he has made in every sphere of his activities. He early took a high place in his profession and in public life, and he had a fine record in the last war; then he was back in public life discharging the
War Appropriation Bill


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Vien in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Appropriation.
Thomas Langton Church: Will any part of the $700,000,000 mentioned in section 2 be used for any purposes other than war purposes, defence and matters of that kind? Last summer the house voted $100,000,000, but proper restrictions were not imposed. I understand part of that money was used to open embassies. Will any of this money be used for any purposes other than those set out in section
2	and remaining clauses? We should earmark this sum so that we may know where it is going, and particularly it should all be for defence on land, on sea and in the air. Will any of the money be used for any civilian purposes other than those indicated in the bill?


James Layton Ralston: No; the money will not be used for purposes other than those set
out in section 2. My hon. friend understands, however, that section 2 is very wide, but the intention is to use the money for purposes connected with the war.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister will recall that when on May 21 he was making his introductory statement on the resolution, I asked him, as reported at page 85 of Hansard, if he would give a break-down of the expenditures. At that time I meant past expenditures and past commitments, and also expenditures to be made under this bill. At that time the minister said:
The house may wish to know the expenditures from September 1 to March 31. For this period the total payments on defence accounts were $112,000,000. The total payments to May 15 were $136,000,000. The commitments from September 1 to March 31, in addition to pay and allowances, amounted to $267,000,000.
Will the minister give the house a breakdown of those several figures, and also a break-down of the balance of the $700,000,000, which I believe he has before him.


James Layton Ralston: At the moment I have not a break-down of the commitments to which the hon. member has referred, but the breakdown of expenditures up to March 31 is as follows:
Department of National Defence.. $112,469,000
Army	$67,579,000
Navy	 11,455,000
Air	 28,380,000
Air training plan.	..	4,219,000
Censorship	 99,000
Administration ..	..	500,000
Internment	 237,000
Department of Agriculture	 1,419,000
Auditor General	 8,000
Civil Service Commission	 6,000
External Affairs	 76,000
Finance; Comptroller	of the
Treasury	 358,000
War Supply Board	 215,000
Justice	 15,000
Labour; Wartime Prices and Trade
Board	 55,000
Mines and Resources	 18,000
National Harbours Board	 69,000
National Research Council	 121,000
National Revenue	 2,000
Pensions and National Health.. ..	900,000
Post Office	 70,000
Privy Council	 30,000
Public Works	 829,000
Royal Canadian Mounted Police.. 1,400,000
Secretary of State	 75,000
Trade and Commerce	 4,000
Transport	 350,000
With regard to the $700,000,000, my hon. friend will understand that to give a breakdown of that would involve stating the allotments for the different services for the coming
War Appropriation Bill


Richard Burpee Hanson: Before the minister does that, I quite understand his observation that the requirements of particular services on war account will depend upon the course and progress of the war and other circumstances which cannot now be foreseen. That is wholly understandable, and I would not press the minister to be more specific on that. But, if one refers to the explanatory notes opposite pages 2 and 3 of the bill, it would seem to run the gamut of the whole public service. I suppose that is a correct statement of the position, that there is hardly a department of the government-they even have fisheries in here-which will not in a measure contribute something, I hope, to national defence.
The list of figures which the minister has been good enough to give to the committee with respect to the expenditures already made is very satisfactory, and the figures cover a large number of items. It is obviously impossible for us to keep in our minds those items at this moment, and I should like to give them some study with a view to asking some further questions on them. I confess my utter inability at the moment to ask questions intelligently on that list of expenditures. I am therefore going to suggest to the minister that he be good enough to let section 2 stand. We might go on with the rest of the bill and, perhaps to-morrow, take up section 2 and report the bill, if that meets with the minister's approval.


James Layton Ralston: It is entirely satisfactory.


Percy Chapman Black: May I ask if the fund provided by this appropriation, $700,000,000, provides for moneys necessary to pay for the manufacturing programme in this country of the British government or the allies?


James Layton Ralston: There is a section in the bill which permits the dominion government to act as agent for the British government and allied governments, and for the time being recoverable charges would be paid out of this appropriation. They would be recoverable; that is, they would afterwards be repaid by the other government. .


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is no other appropriation out of which they would be paid?


James Layton Ralston: No.

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Clarence Gillis: I rise at this time, not for the purpose of retarding the matter which is before the house, but to get some information on questions which appear to be bothering some of the men who are in uniform. I know that one of the essential things if we are to have a proper prosecution of the war is to satisfy the expeditionary force. The men who are going to do the fighting must be assured that they have something to fight for and that the government are paying strict attention to their dependents.
The first matter in which I am interested is set out in a letter which I received to-day from a boy from my own constituency who is now in England. He says that there is considerable criticism within the ranks in England at the present time because, he says, they are paid on a fixed rate of exchange; that is, the pound at the present time is valued at $4.47, and on every $5 they receive in wages they are losing 53 cents. The government should give some recognition to that complaint.
Another matter of which he complains is the differential that exists in the dependents' allowances, to the prejudice of the mother as against the wife. That matter has been raised here, but as far as I am aware, no satisfactory answer has been given.
There is another matter about which considerable complaint exists, and I should like some information on it. According to press reports it is the intention of the government to grant two weeks' leave with subsistence allowance to all members of the Canadian active service force in Canada after they have completed six months' training. According to my information that has not been done. It is reported that some have had leave, but that no subsistence allowance was granted. Many others have not had the furlough. What is the intention of the department of the Minister of National Defence with respect to this matter?
With regard to another matter I have had some trouble prior to coming here, and I know it has occasioned some correspondence with the Department of Pensions and National Health. It is probably a little unusual; nevertheless it exists. What is the regulation of the minister's department in respect of the following category: a married man with a wife and dependants, who was parted before enlistment, but who, in accordance with the court decision, was compelled to support his wife and child before enlistment, neglects to make provision for them? His wrife has presented her marriage certificate and a copy of the court order granting her support. This support had been taken from her by virtue of her husband's enlistment, he having failed
to register at that time. Have there been any complaints of that kind? If so, what is the ruling in such cases?
These are several matters that are pertinent to the welfare of the men in uniform, and in my opinion, if we are to have a proper prosecution of the war, the men who are to do the fighting must be absolutely satisfied that we at home are taking care of all those matters which, however much we may be inclined to regard them as minor details, are nevertheless of major importance to them.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I shall be glad to take a
note of what the hon. gentleman has said and give him an answer to-morrow.


Thomas Langton Church: Some of this vote is for
home defence, and much of it has to do with public buildings throughout Canada for war purposes. The explanatory notes opposite page 2 of the bill give a list of items for militia services, naval services and air services. It will be noticed, in the explanatory notes opposite page 2, which will have to be read into section 2, that a good deal of this work is for home defence. As I say, it has to do with public buildings, land services, construction, repairs to naval buildings, expenses of the Royal Military college, Nothwest Territories radio services and a good many other things which formerly appeared in the main estimates and to some extent in the supplementary estimates as well. The other day the minister declared a holiday from public works, but these items have to be taken into account.
Home defence in Canada is not as important as it is in the old country, which is so close to enemy activities, because they are only twenty-five to thirty miles from the war zone. It is of course of some importance, but in my opinion the minister should give the committee some information on three or four points. In the first place, what part of this expenditure is for home defence and how much of it is for overseas? I find that a number of the undertakings under this bill formerly appeared in the main and supplementary estimates. I should like to know, for instance, whether the pegging of wheat and other commodities, if that is decided upon by the house, is to be included in the expenditures that are to be made out of this $700,000,000. Then, again, there may be further bonuses, subventions, subsidies, for other protectional purposes later. Many of these items will come up also in the main estimates and the supplementary estimates, if any. Will they form a part of the expenditures out of this $700,000,000? Last September the house voted $100,000,000 and no part of that money was earmarked.
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We are spending $700,000,000 now in connection with a war overseas, defence at home and as a protection to bonds, railway securities and public securities; yet there is not enough money to insure the men who are fighting our battles overseas, to give them this protection. I suggest that the minister should lay down some policy of soldier insurance for all Canadian soldiers such as they had in the United States in the last war. That effected an economy in other ways later and helped the soldier and his dependents; it was found cheaper and lessened pensions, bonuses and the like. 1 hope the minister will consider some system such as they had in the United States with a view to insuring every soldier who goes overseas, so that in the event of his death in action or of his coming home crippled there will be some means by insurance of reestablishing him in civil life after the war. An insurance system was set up in Toronto in the great war, and it aided recruiting and helped the dependents when the soldier was killed. There was no reason why the people should have done it in Toronto, but they did it as a means of helping recruiting and the war.
I think the time is coming when we should definitely consider the huge taxes placed on the shoulders of the people to-day, especially the industrial workers of Ontario and Quebec. They pay the large share of our taxation both direct and indirect. The people in these cities and towns, the working class, have suffered from unemployment and depression in the last few years, and now they are suffering the consequences of a second war. A large number of these men have enlisted, and I urge the minister to provide that a larger part of these war votes shall come out of capital account and not be so heavily charged into the tax rate and charged to income. There is too great a charge upon income at the present time. We all know that whether it is charged to income or to interest, debt charges and sinking fund, it falls back upon the main body of taxpayers, the industrial workers, especially in Ontario and Quebec. The people of these two provinces contributed 80 per cent of the cash taxes of Canada, and they got little or nothing in return during the depression. The minister ought to give them some consideration. It seems to me that we are going too far in charging so much by way of taxes directly to income in the country.
I find that a great deal of what is outlined in this bill had been eliminated from the main estimates. This section refers to the conduct of naval, military and air operations in or beyond Canada. If the minister is given power to pass orders in council, I hope he

will see to it that some of the inequalities are removed as between those who serve on land or on sea and in the air. I do hope he will bring down a bill for the purpose of removing the discrepancies in dependency payments and removing inequalities found to exist from experience so far.


James Layton Ralston: In reference to the purposes for which these moneys are to be used, the committee will understand that the section is, as I have endeavoured frankly to point out, as wide as it can be made having regard to all the circumstances. It is, I think, word for word the same appropriation act that was passed in the last war, which gave the government power to use the money for the purposes indicated. It cannot be otherwise. Peacetime or normal public works are not contemplated by this bill, and so far as I am concerned I shall endeavour to see to it that expenditures of that kind are not made under this measure. They belong to ordinary peacetime estimates. There are expenditures contemplated for buildings such as those for buildings in connection with the services and the air training plan. The air training plan expenditure would appear to be capital expenditure, but it has to be amortized over the life of the plant. I assure the committee that the objects set out in section 2 cannot be limited to any greater extent than they are, and I can only assure hon. members that every endeavour will be made to see that the expenditures shall have relation to objects connected with the war.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: We should have an explanation from the government to assist us in discussing this matter further. When this bill was in the resolution stage, the Prime Minister suggested that a committee would be set up representing all parties to receive confidential information regarding the appropriations. Is it the purpose of the government to set up that committee to review these appropriations before this bill is finally passed, or will that be discussed after the bill is passed?


James Layton Ralston: I think the Prime Minister was going to discuss the matter further with the leader of the opposition; I believe that was what was intimated at the time. I thought we could go ahead with the bill in committee.


Percy Chapman Black: Does this
appropriation cover ordinary peace-time expenditures necessary for administering the military, naval and air services?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, peace-time expenditure for military services.
Section stands.

War Appropriation Bill
On section 3-Government may act as agent.


James Layton Ralston: I answered my hon. friend the leader of the opposition incorrectly when 1 intimated that this 8700,000,000 was the only fund out of which moneys could be paid by the government in acting as agent for allied governments. As he will see from this section, moneys may be paid out of the consolidated fund, not necessarily out of the $700,000,000.


Thomas Miller Bell: This brings up a very important matter. I do not know whether this is the time to ask the Minister of Finance to give the committee some idea of the intentions of the government regarding the financing of allied expenditures through repatriation of Canadian securities. I take it from the wording of section 3 that it gives the government power in that regard. If so, I think the committee should have some idea, before passing this section, as to what the government intend to do in that connection. I am not objecting in any way to the government assisting the allies in this matter to the fullest degree. But I have heard a great deal of discussion as to the extent of the repatriation of Canadian securities held in Great Britain and the effect it may have on our own economy both now and after the war. I understand that in Great Britain there are something like 82,500,000,000 worth of Canadian securities held. If it is the intention to repatriate these during the course of the war, we might find ourselves in difficult circumstances unless we know exactly what is to be done when the securities have been repatriated. Are they to be sold to the general public as they are transferred to Canada, or are some of them to be retained by the government, and thus some organizations represented by those bonds become government-owned institutions? And how is it proposed to proceed in marketing securities if they are to be marketed? I do not want to delay the passage of the bill, but if this is the proper time, as from the wording of the section I judge it is, we might ask that a rather complete explanation of what this clause means might be given now.


James Layton Ralston: I am one of those who hesitate to attempt to interpret a piece of legislation. It may turn out that the lawyers find that it means something different from what the legislators thought it meant. I always feel that one must take the wording of the clause and, if necessary, leave it to the courts to decide what it means.
It had not occurred to me until my hon. friend raised the point that this section was one under which repatriation procedure might
be carried on. As a matter of fact, the provision was in the appropriation act at the time of the last war, and was in last year, and I recall one instance already in which it was found useful in making certain advances temporarily to one allied government for a certain emergent purpose which it was felt should be attended to at once without the delay which would be attendant on having to get a remittance from the other side. That is the type of thing I have in mind under this section. However, as my hon. friend will notice, it does provide that-
-any obligations or costs incurred temporarily or assumed by the government of Canada in the exercise of the powers hereby conferred may be paid out of any unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund.
But it is always prefaced by this, that in respect of the exercise of any powers under this section the government of Canada must be acting as agent for the government of any British or foreign country allied with his majesty. So I rather apprehend that it does not apply to repatriation proceedings such as my hon. friend suggested.
But, if it is convenient for the committee, let me finish now what I have to say regarding repatriation. I do not think I can add much to what I said the other day. Repatriation is simply one method which this government has adopted in order to provide Canadian dollars for our allies to purchase goods in Canada. It is a simple method; the leader of the opposition and I had a dialogue about it the other day; it simply means that Canadian securities have been sold in the British market and are held by British holders. The British government through their exchange control provide that all such securities must be registered, and the government have the right to requisition them from the holders. The British government needing Canadian dollars, and the Canadian government being willing to provide Canadian dollars for the British government, say to that government in effect, We will take these securities which have been absorbed by the British market and see that they are absorbed by the Canadian market and Canadian dollars representing the purchase price put to your credit. In turn the British government credit the holders of the securities with the amount represented by them and pay them the necessary funds in pounds, shillings and pence. As a matter of fact, the sum of $91,000,000 of one of our issues was repatriated during the first three or four months of the war. Since that time there have been some other operations; certain credits have been extended; certain substantial accumulations of sterling have taken place and exist at the present time. As I
War Appropriation Bill

intimated to the house when introducing the resolution, I have authorized another very substantial sum by way of accumulation of sterling, which means that in connection with certain transactions between us and the British government we did not ask them to pay in Canadian dollars but were content that for the time being sterling should be credited to our account in London. It may be that later on repatriation procedure may be taken-I was going to say to regularize that, but to settle the outstanding balance so that the British government in effect, gets the Canadian dollars for that sterling. At the present time I can describe it as more or less an open account; a very large balance in sterling is to our credit for goods sold by Canada. This will later be closed out by a repatriation operation.
As to the extent of repatriation operations from this time on, I have in mind quite definitely an arrangement arrived at with the British government as to the extent of the operations and the nature of certain intermediate operations which would take place between the two governments. The committee will understand that I do not feel at liberty to disclose the nature of those arrangements, because it will be understood that they affect the economy of both countries, and securities and exchange transactions in both countries. I can only say that the undertaking Canada is entering into in that regard is a very substantial one and I believe will be of material assistance to our allies; in fact, it has been indicated in very unreserved terms that such is the case.


Joseph Henry Harris: While the minister is on this subject, I should like to mention something along the same line, although probably it will not be quite in order until we reach the next section. It is with regard to the repatriation of Canadian bonds and Canadian dollars, particularly from the United States. As the minister knows, shortly after war was declared Canadian bonds in the United States dropped considerably below the Canadian level, with the result that there was considerable bootlegging, if I may call it that for lack of a better word, of Dominion of Canada bonds from the New York market. These bonds were brought to Canada and sold, and some unscrupulous financiers made a good deal of money out of that practice. I should like to ask the minipfer what new or further safeguards the foreign exchange control board are putting into effect to stop that practice, particularly in view of the announcement made by the minister last night with regard to the sale of war certificates.
I might add one further question along '[DOT]he same line. Many hundreds of thousands
'Mr. Ralston.]
of Canadian dollars are finding their way across the border and are being bought up, even by Canadians, in such places as Buffalo, for example. I have in mind one incident which occurred just yesterday. Canadian dollars spent in Buffalo are being accumulated by people in that city at 78 cents each, and quite a few of those dollars will find their way back into Canada to buy some of the very war certificates of which the minister spoke so highly last night. Now that the question of the repatriation of Canadian funds has been opened, I wonder if the minister would give us a statement as to what is being done to protect our interests in this connection.


James Layton Ralston: I do not think the committee will expect, as I am sure my hon. friend will not, that I should go into the details of the foreign exchange control regulations, because they are really extremely intricate. I can only state the general principles. My hon. friend mentions the bootlegging of Canadian bonds, by which I think he means that a non-resident holder buys Canadian bonds at a low rate in .the New York market and succeeds in getting a Canadian resident to purchase the bonds, giving him Canadian money for them. That, of course, is an export of capital and is contrary to the regulations; it is an export of the capital necessary .to pay the United States holder for the bonds. I can assure the committee that every effort has been made to deal with that situation, and if there can be any tightening up of the regulations, that will be done.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Is there any particular control over that? The bonds held in the United States are bearer bonds, are they not?


James Layton Ralston: Even bearer bonds payable in United States currency but held by a Canadian resident are registered with the foreign exchange control board. But in the case of bonds held by United States residents it is not the bond, it is the Canadian purchaser's bank balance over which there is control. That is to say, the payment by the Canadian out of that bank balance is what is prohibited, because that is really an export of capital.


Joseph Henry Harris: I merely bring this to the attention of the minister and of the committee in the hope of drawing from the minister an emphatic statement that the government will take this problem definitely in hand. Then people who are in this most unscrupulous business will know that the government is aware of what is going on and will take drastic steps to deal with it. My purpose in

War Appropriation Bill
mentioning this matter is purely constructive, to try to stamp out an evil which to my mind is one of the worst in which anyone interested in finance in this country can be implicated.
I have something to say about the war certificates but I will say that when we come to the proper section. In passing, I may say that I hope there will be no scandalous financial operations with regard to the raising of part of this money by way of loan. I should like to have the minister make an emphatic statement with regard to the repatriation of Canadian funds, indicating that every possible precaution will be taken so that no unscrupulous methods will be tolerated.


James Layton Ralston: As a rule, committees are reluctant to accept general statements from ministers in connection with these matters. I appreciate my hon. friend's motive in mentioning this situation. I was saying that I thought it was not the matter of the bonds, but rather the matter of the bank balances, the Canadian who buys cheap Canadian bonds from an American who has purchased them in that market. That is contrary to the regulations, and I say to my hon. friend most emphatically that if I can do anything to make that regulation more effective, he may be sure it will be done. With regard to the matter of Canadian dollars, of course my hon. friend understands that this money may be carried down to the United States, or there may be a Canadian balance held by a United States resident, who may sell it cheaply in the United States. The result is that somebody buys cheap Canadian dollars and comes up here to spend them, possibly for war savings certificates, as my hon. friend suggests.


Karl Kenneth Homuth: Would it be possible to have all bondholders registered?


James Layton Ralston: Canadian holders of Canadian securities payable in United States currency must register with the Foreign Exchange Control Board even if they hold bearer bonds. They must register as holders of those bonds.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They cannot collect the interest unless they do.


James Layton Ralston: That is correct; and of course we have a check through the banks when the interest coupons are paid. That registration is complete. Generally speaking, I have mentioned the way in which cheap Canadian dollars get into what some people call the free market, although it has other names, particularly with us. There is another instance, when someone who is in Canada visiting, goes back with a few Canadian dollars in his pocket. He does not want to
keep them and sells them cheaply in the United States. That creates a little more money in the so-called free market.


Major James William Coldwell: When the hon. member for Danforth rose, I was going to ask another question. I quite understand that there is some difficulty about divulging to the House of Commons and the public any information concerning this matter of the repatriation of Canadian securities, because of the effect it might have on the economy of the countries involved. But we are engaging in very considerable commitments which may have an effect upon our whole economic structure. There is only one way in which this house really controls the government; that is, in the voting of moneys and the agreeing to commitments and expenditures. As I say, I realize the necessity of safeguarding the economy of the countries concerned, but I think that is a reason why this information should be given a committee before we pass upon this matter. I do not want to delay the bill, and I am not suggesting that we should do that; but if we should get an undertaking from the government that a committee of this house will be given an opportunity to look into and study this matter thoroughly, I have no objection to the passing of this section. This house controls the purse-strings of the government, and in my opinion the answer of the minister, from that point of view alone, is unsatisfactory. I think we should have an opportunity of knowing exactly what are the financial commitments and to what extent we are being involved before we are asked to approve a section of this kind.
This evening the minister made a remark similar to one he made earlier in the day, to the effect that he hesitated to interpret a section of the bill, that this was a matter for the courts rather than a matter of what the legislators had in mind. This afternoon the minister said he did not know what the draftsman had in mind in drawing up a section in a certain way. I really think we should endeavour to get these bills into such shape that we will know what we have in mind, and that nothing can be read into these measures which will give the government wider powers than it is intended should be conferred at the present time. As is suggested to me, if the minister does not know the exact meaning of the phraseology of his own bill, how can we be expected to know what the bill actually means?


James Layton Ralston: I know what I think the bill means, but I am not the one to decide. My hon. friend has been a legislator long enough to realize that some bills go through this house which are supposed to mean certain
War Appropriation Bill

things and yet they turn out to mean something else, not because anyone has attempted to mislead but simply because of interpretation. Therefore, I hesitate to paraphrase a bill. It seems to me it is much better to read the section and endeavour to understand it; we should endeavour to get an interpretation which may be sound and pass it if the principle approves itself to us. My hon. friend has brought up the matter of repatriation of securities, but I do not think this section has to do with that. We shall not be acting as an agent of the British government in repatriating our own securities; we shall be purchasing securities for our own account.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I was just about to make the same observation as the minister. In the repatriation of our own securities we will be conducting what is more or less a refunding operation. As I understand it, this is limited to the securities of the Dominion of Canada and is being done for the convenience of our own treasury, to build up in the old country a sterling balance which may be needed at some future time. I am quite in agreement with what the minister has said about the construction placed by the courts on clauses of bills. I have been faced with this many times in the course of the last thirty-five or forty years. The government is asking authority to act as agent for the allied governments in any contingency that may arise.


Mr. GREEN:: The Canadian government is to have the power to act as agent for the British government for any purpose, direct or indirect, which will aid in the prosecution of the war. If I may do so under this section, I would ask the government to give some explanation of the difficulties which seem to have arisen in the working out of the British commonwealth air training plan. For example, in the press of Vancouver on Monday last, a week ago to-day, there appeared this report :
Vancouver's air training programme for war pilots will not start for another year.
This unexpected prediction from Aid. H. D. Wilson, chairman, drew indignant comment from the civic airport committee to-day.
Aid. Wilson blamed lack of organization and "official red tape" for delay in commencing local instruction of Canadian war birds.
Decision to turn over the Sea Island airport-
That is the Vancouver airport.

to the federal government for duration of the war was made by the city council two months ago, and it had been expected the air training scheme would be under way by now.
That is a most disturbing statement. It may not be correct, but I think it should be explained. I understand also that tenders

have not even been called for in connection with certain training fields on the prairies which will be required to carry out this air training plan. I understand also that unless work is commenced within the next two or three weeks, these fields cannot be completed this year. I hope the minister will be able to assure us that these difficulties are being ironed out.


Norman McLeod Rogers: In the absence of the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power), perhaps I can supply some of the information my hon. friend desires. In the first place, the fact that a particular school is not to be opened in Vancouver until such and such a date does not of itself imply that the air training plan is running behind schedule.


Howard Charles Green: This report says it will not be ready until next year.


Norman McLeod Rogers: If I may just go on with
my explanation, the air training plan as outlined to us-I want to emphasize this again -by the United Kingdom government embraced a development over a three-year period. That was a plan which was put to us at a time when the British government was of the opinion that we should plan for a war which would continue for three years.


William Earl Rowe: When was that plan put
forward ?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It was put to us in
October of 1939.


William Earl Rowe: Would the minister not say
that the present crisis might accentuate the need for training?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Most certainly, and if my
hon. friend will permit me to continue, I think I can satisfy him on that question as well. I merely wish to point out that the air training plan was worked out on a basis which provided for the progressive development of air training schools right across this country during this three year period. In the nature of things the government decided that it would develop first the schools at its own military aerodromes. It would then develop further the schools at aerodromes made available by Trans-Canada Air Lines. These aerodromes were already in a position to supply facilities for training purposes. It was decided that we would then continue with the construction of new aerodromes, which would become available as and when required. I can assure my hon. friend that the schedules that were worked out by the various air missions, those of the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, were followed faithfully up to the

War Appropriation Bill
present crisis. Until that time the members of the various governments that made up the supervisory board followed the progress of the plan and expressed satisfaction with that progress.
Having said that, I agree at once with my hon. friends that the grave situation which has developed in recent weeks presents us with a new problem, not only in relation to the air training plan but in relation to all our plans, for both military and naval operations. The Minister of National Defence for Air has already given to the house his statement that every possible means will be taken to expedite the output of pilots and air men, either within or outside the plan.
I need hardly say that that is the wish of this government, as it would be the wish of any government in the face of the situation which confronts us at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: It really does not do much good to blame the British government. Perhaps we should blame our own parliament as a whole, but certainly the Canadian government is not free from blame.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I am simply stating the
facts.


Howard Charles Green: The minister made no
mention of the air training fields on the prairies.


Norman McLeod Rogers: If my hon. friend will
permit me, although my colleague, the Minister of National Defence for Air, can answer this more effectively and it is his responsibility; provision has been made to go ahead with the construction of these aerodromes this year in advance of the schedule.


Howard Charles Green: Will either minister say
whether or not they are to be completed this year so that they can be used?


Charles Gavan Power: The decision has been
arrived at to proceed with these aerodromes this summer with the greatest possible expedition, even though under the original scheme and plan they were not to be done until next summer.


Howard Charles Green: There are no fields that will not be completed until next year?


Charles Gavan Power: Not if we can help it.


William Earl Rowe: When were the qualified pilots supposed to be turned out from the commonwealth air training scheme itself?


Richard Burpee Hanson: As originally planned.


Charles Gavan Power: There is a schedule. I would have to consult to ascertain whether I am at liberty to give the exact dates at which the first or second or any other class of pilots were to be turned out. But they will be turned out on schedule.


William Earl Rowe: It appears to me that this strikes at the vital principle in our whole air training scheme. We are told now, or the impression is given that we cannot march any faster than Britain dictates that we shall.


Norman McLeod Rogers: That was the original position. That was the position.


William Earl Rowe: I would hope it is not the position.


Norman McLeod Rogers: It is not the position.


William Earl Rowe: Because it is only a short time ago that we were told in this house that we must have full control, full management, full ownership and full operation of our military affairs. Surely now, when the crisis has arrived, we can at least give our maximum, whether or not it is the minimum required by the mother country.


Charles Gavan Power: It may take a little time to answer, because this whole air training scheme is complicated, and perhaps the committee will bear with me if I am not as clear on it as I might be. But in any case approaches were made to the government of Canada some time towards the end of September, 1939, by the government of the United Kingdom asking the government of Canada, with the government of Australia and that of New Zealand, to join in a plan for the development of air pilots, gunners and observers. That plan was definitely a long range plan. There was a great deal of discussion. Missions came here from Great Britain and from the other two colonies interested in the scheme-I mean dominions.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That word is taboo.


William Earl Rowe: It is acting like a colony now.


Charles Gavan Power: I would ask my hon. friend if he prefers Canada, in a colonial status, to be told what to do, or to sit down at a conference table and talk, as he would in any other business transaction.


William Earl Rowe: I was saying that we were acting like colonials.


Charles Gavan Power: We are acting as a partner in a business transaction. Only now it may be that we may have-out of a sense of duty and loyalty-to carry more of the burden than originally it was anticipated we would have to carry.


William Earl Rowe: I would hope so.
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Charles Gavan Power: The plan was agreed to in December, 1939, and a contract signed by all the parties to it. It calls for a wide expansion in the air training programmes of each of the three dominions, and for joint training in Canada in the more advanced stages of pupils from Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. Practically all air recruits in the United Kingdom were to be trained at home. Practically all of those in Australia were to be trained at home, although Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain were to send a proportion of their trainees here for their advanced training. All of the Canadian trainees were to receive their training in the Dominion of Canada.
The initial and elementary training was to be carried on in Canada for Canadian pupils only. I will not go into the question of how those trainees are to be selected. The training programme contemplated making full use of the existing facilities of the Royal Canadian Air Force, and the aerodromes which the Department of Transport had developed for the use of the Trans-Canada Air Lines. In addition, it was considered necessary to proceed to the construction of a very large number of new aerodromes in different parts of the dominion. When the programme is in full operation, some eighty-seven aerodromes, including relief landing grounds, will be required.
Work of constructing these aerodromes has been taken over by the Department of Transport on behalf of the Department of National Defence. Large supplies of equipment and stores will be needed. In each of the sixteen service flying training schools, there are required 108 planes, approximately. Twenty-seven machines are needed for each of the twenty-six elementary flying training schools, and ten observer schools call for twenty-four aircraft per unit. Ten bombing and gunnery schools require seventy-five machines each. Aircraft for two air navigation schools call for forty-eight machines each.
The United Kingdom, in connection with her part of the cost of the undertaking, had agreed to supply most of the aircraft, including engines and spares. Apart from the aircraft supplied by the United Kingdom, the light aircraft for elementary training and a portion of the other aircraft will be made in Canada.
The aircraft to be made in Canada will be included with the other costs in the air training programme, which is to be divided between Canada, Australia and New Zealand in proportion to the use to be made of the various facilities by the pupils of the three countries. This means that excluding the cost of the aircraft provided by the United Kingdom Canada will bear the cost of the 
initial and elementary training in Canada and about four-fifths of the remaining costs of the programme.
The duration of the agreement is until March 31, 1943. This may be extended. For the fiscal year 1940-41 we are asking for a net of approximately $124,000,000. The direction and control of the air training plan are vested in the Minister of National Defence for Air.
There is a supervisory board of the four partners in the scheme. The supervisory board has one representative from Great Britain, Sir Gerald Campbell, and with him is associated his technical adviser, Air ViceCommodore McKeen. Sir William Glasgow is from Australia, and from New Zealand there is Group Captain Izitt. The Canadian representatives are the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston), the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Rogers), together with the chief of the air staff, Air Vice-Marshal Croil, and Air Commodore Johnston, the head of the training organization. The supervisory board meets every month and reports progress on the scheme.
Perhaps I ought to say that the plan is intended to provide an ever-increasing flow of trained pilots, air observers, and air gunners, whose arrival in England would coincide with the expansion of her aircraft production and equipment manufacturing facilities, along with her purchases of these from abroad.
The work is proceeding accurately, and according to plan. Aerodromes are being surveyed or developed, and some are already in operation. Many types of buildings are in process of construction. Some are already constructed. Hangars have been selected, and public buildings or institutions have been taken over. Every province of the dominion is represented in this air training scheme.
There is a real need for intensive air training. It is commonly thought that all that is necessary to train a service pilot is to teach him to fly an aircraft of any type.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: How long does it take to train a pilot from the time he commences as a raw recruit until he is turned out as an experienced pilot, fit to go to the front?


Charles Gavan Power: I should be very glad to
place that information on Hansard, and not only that but also the steps which are necessary. I believe at first there was some hesitation in stating the number of weeks which were required to carry a pilot through the various stages. But since it has been bruited abroad, and even mentioned in a number of speeches, I have discussed with the officers of the department the advisability of placing

War Appropriation Bill
the information on Hansard. Although I have not the information before me, I have it upstairs, and will place it on Hansard. It consists of a chart indicating how long the pilot remains in the initial stage, how long in the elementary flying school, how long in the intermediate school, how long in the wireless school, the observers' school, the bombing and gunnery school, and so on.
The scheme in graph form gives a better picture of it than any description which I have been able to read up to the present and it appears on page 256.


William Earl Rowe: The minister mentioned elementary schools. Are any such schools in operation now?


Charles Gavan Power: I think there are two,
although I shall have to check on that. I believe there are two in operation by contracts with flying clubs. There will be twenty-six in operation when the scheme is completed.


William Earl Rowe: Could the minister tell me
where they are?


Charles Gavan Power: There is one at Malton. A contract has been entered into with the Toronto flying club to carry on an elementary training school at Malton. Perhaps my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence is more familiar than I am with the details. In any event, what I wish to impress on the committee is that you cannot just take a man and teach him how to fly and make an air pilot out of him, any more than you can make a wireless operator or a bomber or an observer out of him. These men have to go through the course just as though they went through a university, and flying is only a small part of their education. Even then a man's full time at the school cannot be devoted solely to flying. There are a number of subjects of a service nature such as theory of flight, air firing, bombing, navigation, the study of aircraft engines and air frames, all of which enter into the curriculum and must be mastered by the pupil before he can graduate as a service pilot. The training plan syllabus has been drawn up after years of experience and provides that these subjects be covered progressively. The fact that the training plan does not immediately produce thousands of pilots, observers and air gunners as if by magic is probably no fair criticism of the organization. As has been pointed out, 'this is an undertaking, so far as Canada is concerned, of unparalleled magnitude, which aims, not at furnishing momentarily a limited amount of assistance to the air arm of the
British empire, but at playing a major part in establishing complete air supremacy for the British commonwealth.
I realize-no one realizes it more than I do-that a plan such as this is not of the greatest possible benefit at a moment of crisis such as has arisen at the present time. The plan was conceived by the British government and submitted to us in Canada. That there will be difficulties in carrying it out to the letter goes without saying. The rapidity with which the war upset prearranged plans is obvious to all, and it may be necessary before long to make modifications to suit changed conditions. Any situation which would prevent the United Kingdom from fulfilling its part would necessitate an acceptance of even greater responsibilities by Canada and the other dominions who are partners in the plan. For instance, certain supplies of aircraft and equipment were to be furnished exclusively by the British government as their contribution. Up to the present the deliveries required have been made, but no man knows to what extent the development of hostilities may interfere with these deliveries. It may be necessary to enter into commitments and undertakings not foreseen last December, or even three weeks ago.
Not only is every consideration being given in this regard, but definite action is being taken, the details of which I cannot give the committee at the present time. I want to make clear to the committee, however, that we are not sitting down quietly awaiting a time when the entire machinery may break down. Alternate schemes are being thought out wherever there is a possibility of suspension or postponement. Up to the present, and that is within the last few hours, our partners in the plan have requested that we adhere to it in all particulars permitted by circumstances, and we are doing so, but that has not precluded us from making such provision as should be made to speed up and accelerate every phase of it.
That is the situation. It was a long range plan, carefully conceived, and was to be carried out with care so that the pilots would arrive at the time that the proper equipment was ready for them on the other side. We have been asked to adhere to that plan in so far as circumstances will permit. We have done so and we are doing so, but we propose not to wait until something happens in order to have to improvise a new plan, and we are giving our best thought and all our energy to preparing against such eventualities as may occur, in order to accelerate the plan.



BRITISH COMMONWEALTH AIR TRAINING PLAN CHART SHOWING SEQUENCE OF TRAINING

[Stage Direction]
Initial Training School Pilots
Air Observers Air Gunners
Duration
Elementary Flying Training School		Air Observers School
Duration -		Duration -
	Wireless School
Duration	-
[Stage Direction]


g
o
!z!
[Stage Direction]
TOTAL COURSE Pilots -	-	-	-	28	WeeksAir Observers	-	-	26	WeeksAir Gunners	-	-	32	Weeks
NOTE-Two weeks of the eight spent at bombing and gunnery school as indicated by arrows.
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Agar Rodney Adamson: May I point out to the
Minister of National Defence for Air that the Toronto flying club at Malton, which is the largest flying club in Canada, has had so far only thirty-five students joining up with the club, and in the last month no students have joined the club to receive their initial training at Malton. There are a sufficient number of what is known as ab initio trainers at Malton, and they have then- plan and their planes and their instructors all ready, but they have not had a sufficient number of students to utilize the plan to the full. I bring this to the attention of the minister.


Charles Gavan Power: I shall be very glad to check that and give my hon. friend a reply tomorrow.


William Earl Rowe: I do not wish to speak of this matter in any critical way, or to review our past failures in connection with it. But it seems to me rather a sad spectacle that we cannot now move any faster than we can get certain parts from the old land. If we are running true to form as a self-governing country with such special characteristics in the way of sovereign rights and with so special a type of political sovereignty as was expressed in this chamber two or three years ago, when this scheme might have been started, why have we not done more? I will not enlarge on the subject, because I have already spoken about it. But it does appear to me that the Minister of National Defence for Air, who is just as aggressive as anybody, and proved to be so before, in a similar cause, should give careful consideration to the advisability of not only speeding up the training of air pilots but developing our air fields throughout Canada.


Charles Gavan Power: That is being done.


William Earl Rowe: Having some knowledge of
practical operations, I am not at all satisfied with the state of our air training fields throughout the dominion, some of which, although the minister did not mention the fact, I have reason to believe are not planned to be completed until 1942.


Charles Gavan Power: There were some fields, under the plan and scheme as laid down by the partners, which were not planned for completion until 1942, but I have already stated to the committee that we are going to endeavour to complete each and every one of them this summer.


William Earl Rowe: That is encouraging. We have had much information to-day which is encouraging. I am glad that the crisis, if not the disaster, to say nothing of what has been said from this side of the house, has 95828-17
shocked the government into some action. And I know, we are all one with regard to the purpose which we are all anxious to achieve. As regards the contracts which are now being let for air training fields to be completed in November or December, I believe, having some knowledge of these matters in operation, that the fields could be completed in half the time.


Charles Gavan Power: If the hon. member will
tell me the names, I will tell the Minister of Transport, and we will hustle them along. We will all work together.


William Earl Rowe: I shall be very glad to do so. Mr. Chairman.


Charles Gavan Power: There is nothing I am more anxious to know.


William Earl Rowe: I shall be very glad to tell the minister privately of some that I am aware of.


An hon. MEMBER:: He would not talk to you about it.


William Earl Rowe: My hon. friend says he would not talk to me about it. I have known the minister longer than my hon. friend has, and I think he will. The end justifies the means. There is an old saying that we are daughter in our mother's house, but mistress in our own. We must branch out in a time of crisis and show that we have some initiative. Two or three years ago we could not branch out because if we ventured to do so, the question of our sovereignty came up. Now that we are working in close cooperation with the rest of the empire, I had hoped that we would not be deterred by any inability to move faster than they. Some hon. members have said that Britain and France have not gone ahead as rapidly as they should have done. Well, we should exercise our sovereignty, the political status that we have been talking about for years, and show some initiative ourselves. In that regard I am glad to know that the government are alive to the situation, at least to some extent, and that they are going to try to meet the conditions that are changing from day to day. I can assure them that they will get every cooperation from this side of the house.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


William Earl Rowe: Some of my hon. friends
would not understand that, but this afternoon they heard many suggestions from this side of the house, suggestions which they might very well consider, with reference to alien enemies, for example, suggestions with reference to national registration, suggestions with reference to recruiting.

War Appropriation Bill


Mr. POTTIER:: What suggestions did you make in 1939?


William Earl Rowe: I made some suggestions that the hon. gentleman did not agree with. We had some suggestions this afternoon from the hon. member for Haldimand with reference to foodstuffs. The hon. member for Lincoln gave a suggestion. Surely no one will suggest that it is not a matter of paramount importance to guard as carefully as possible a canal througli which freight moves to the extent of 12,000,000 tons a year, and hydro power that serves the nation's industry. I could not help realizing at the time the catastrophe to which this country is exposed if anything happens in that connection. The minister and every other member of the government, especially those who had experience in the last war, must realize what a tragedy it would be if anything happened in those districts. We have seen the development of nazism and fascism; we have seen signs of espionage and sabotage, with all the cunning and subtle devices of the enemy. Surely we have had ample warning. We have seen eight or nine different countries overrun not only by nazism but by all the subversive influences that preceded its advance. I say, we should stop, look and listen.


An hon. MEMBER:: You should be stopped.


William Earl Rowe: You have been stopped too long; that is the trouble. I repeat, the hour of crisis is here, and I do not wish for one moment to weary the committee with any review of what we have not done in the past- we have all made mistakes. I urge upon the government the importance of considering all these suggestions that have been made. It is what we are going to do in the future that counts. If it is the last thing I ever do in this house, I hope it will be to offer some constructive criticism at this juncture. I would therefore urge the Minister of National Defence for Air to give these questions his careful consideration. He was a worthy soldier in the last war and I have no doubt he is just as much interested now, but he has been involved in the complacency of the party surrounding him, and I fear some of the spirit which he showed then may have been killed. I think it is fortunate that two or three of the members of the cabinet experienced a similar grave state of affaire a quarter of a century ago, and if they are aroused we may find that they are capable of greater action than the public realizes. I am not speaking in order to save what is left of our party but rather to save the government themselves from their own iniquity. I would say to them: Give careful consideration not only to the general plea

that has been made for caution but to the suggestion that you look into each individual contract and see whether, if a contract is to be completed by December, every effort cannot be made to have it finished by the first of October. With the machinery we possess to-day it is amazing what can be done. As a farmer, if I were not a member of the House of Commons, I could take any of the training fields and finish the work in half the time the government are asking the tenderers to do it in.


Charles Gavan Power: I saw a letter to-day from some municipality where I believe it is proposed that there shall be an air field, and I mention this because it is of some encouragement to me and bears on what is being discussed. That municipality requests that it be given permission to clear the air field by its citizens at their own expense. I mention this because we may get some offers from other municipalities who have been very anxious to have air ports. They said they would do it in two weeks.


William Earl Rowe: Certainly. There are two that are going to be cleared in my county. Rather than see the empire collapse, there are enough farmers in the district to clear them in a .month. There ai'e many things that we can do. The minister .may recall the story told by the former member for Mount Royal. He told us that a rabbit climbed a tree when he was out hunting. Somebody had said the rabbit could not do it, but that rabbit had to climb the tree.
I do not wish to leave the impression that I am criticizing for the sake of criticism. I should like to leave some proposals with the government for consideration, because I am sure that some hon. gentlemen opposite are convinced of my sincerity. I would ask the government to consider the question of rushing these air training fields. Have them leveled off and prepared for service. Why be over fussy? I have heard the statement-it may be untrue, it may be only gossip, but I have heard it-that the inspectorship of aeroplanes that are being turned out is so extremely critical that objection is raised if there is a scratch on the paint on the outside of the chassis. I urge the minister to look into this matter. As a practical farmer I know that I can haul as many turnips in a wagon that is not painted as in one that is painted. We have a job to do; let us do it. The pilot is not concerned with the colour of the paint on the plane when he has to meet the blitzkrieg of the enemy.
With regard to the question of protection, which has been discussed by the hon. member for Lincoln, I suggest that every means be

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taken to bring this entirely under the department of the Minister of National Defence, working in conjunction with the provincial police and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We have not half the protection we need. There are bridges between Canada and the United States that are not protected at all. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police are the pride of Canada just as the local police are the pride of every city. But, after all, we have only a small number of these men for this vast country. They are gallant fellows. Many of them have spent four or five years of the best of their lives, many lost their lives, and this would be as great a job as they have done in Canada for many years.
This national crisis is far too great for such a small force. In all sincerity I urge the government-and I am not critical because they did not do it yesterday, because I know the crisis of to-day is different from that of yesterday and perhaps to-morrow will be different from to-day-to give serious consideration to doubling that force, if necessary, to enlist the services of 10,000 ex-service men throughout this dominion. Scores of them are appealing to me every week for something to do. And a man who served in the last war, even though he be sixty years of age, if he is still reasonably fit physically, is of much more value as a guard of a bridge or canal or power transmission service than some young fellows of eighteen, twenty or twenty-two years of age with no military experience. These ex-service men have special value in a crisis. If Canada were invaded, such men would be of paramount value in dealing with swift mechanized assault that other countries have experienced. Their capacity for judgment and decision on the spur of the moment is of more importance than the capacity to endure three or four years of trench warfare. Many hon. members here would be unable to endure long marches, but for a blitzkrieg of two or three days the Minister of National Defence for Air would, I am sure, be of more value from his experience in the last great war than a man who might be able to stand twenty- four months of hardship in the cold, wet trenches. These ex-service men would be of paramount value not only for the protection of transportation and vital points, but if the occasion arose they could be used in other capacities.
Another suggestion to which I hope the government might give consideration is this. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police have done a great job; in many parts of this country if there are signs of subversive influences they would be appealed to. I believe they are the proper body to which to send 95826-17i
complaints. But in my county I have not seen a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in twenty years. I believe the same could be said of the adjoining county. Perhaps there are places where they are needed more. But if a man in such a district has working for him a nazi representative who is trying to spread subversive influences, to whom is he going to report it? He wonders whether he should report to the clerk of the municipality, to the county police, to the provincial police. I know for a fact some have gone to certain newspapers. The government might well consider setting up at different points throughout the dominion an organization or bureau, not of information but for information, consisting of returned men. I may point out that this would relieve the government. As the Minister of Justice said this afternoon, there would not be even the semblance of politics in it. I do not want to charge the Minister of Justice or any other member of the government with playing politics; I know how well they have played it in normal times, but I exonerate them from playing it in this time of crisis. But I believe that bureaux for information should be set up in places like Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Belleville, Toronto, and county towns as well. We have seen what these subversive influences have done in other countries far in advance of the invading enemy, and we have now *these bitter experiences for our guidance. Our returned men stand ready clamouring for something to do, and their experience in the last awful crisis qualifies them to give leadership in this.
I hope these few suggestions may be accepted in the spirit in which they are made, not as criticism of what has not been done. This country is at war; now that the crisis is here, let us get on a war footing and realize that there are subversive influences at work in this country just as in other countries, and surely we can benefit from the experience of other countries in that regard.


Mr. GOLDING:: Can the Minister of
Finance or the Minister of National Defence give us some estimate of the cost of the British fighting machines?


Charles Gavan Power: If my hon. friend means the amount as measured by planes that are to be supplied under the plan, it is $180,000,000. That is the amount of the contribution of the United Kingdom government. Canada's contribution is $360,000,000, and Australia and New Zealand contribute in proportion to the use they make of the schools. That is over a period of three and a half years.
War Appropriation Bill


William Henry Golding: My question arises from a statement made by the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) the other night. I should like to know what the cost would be to manufacture these 25,000 British fighting planes. The hon. member said, as reported on page 182 of Hansard:
I say that the government to your right, Mr. Speaker, will stand condemned on the pages of Canadian history for not having overseas in support of those gallant boys to-night at least twenty-five thousand British fighting planes.
I should like to know what the cost of 25,000 fighting planes would be, and the length of time it would take to manufacture, or to set up plants to manufacture, that sort of thing. We ought to keep in mind in discussing these matters the time it takes to establish plants for the manufacture of fighting machines or munitions. I had some experience as shop foreman in the plant at home during the last war. We got a contract for shells, I think in March, 1915; we had to set up the whole plant, tool the machines, and we were not shipping shells until November of that year. In addition, every machine operated in manufacturing the shells was manned by a person who had had no previous experience in machine work at all. We had to take the time not only to set up the plant and tool the machines but to train the men to operate them. Anyone who has gone through that experience will have some idea of the time it would take and the cost of setting up plants for that production. It cannot be done overnight. I am not saying this in a critical way. I just want the information, if I can get it, as to what would be the cost to Canada of supplying 25,000 fighting machines and the length of time it would take to set up plants to handle that production.


William Earl Rowe: The hon. member is asking
the minister, but perhaps he will permit me to remind him that while I referred to fighting planes I meant that they would be piloted by Canadian-trained pilots. The scheme to which I had reference, according to my understanding and the general rumour throughout this country, and indeed in Great Britain, was that at that time Britain proposed to pay for the scheme herself and to train 25,000 pilots in Canada each year. Apparently our status would not permit that to be done, but now we are led to believe that same status permits us to move no faster than Great Britain asks us to move.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend referred
to this scheme the other night. I was not in the house at the time and I have not

taken the trouble since to answer him. I really thought that what we were engaged with was the present, not the past. Since my hon. friend has mentioned this matter again to-night, however, perhaps we can just clear it up in a few minutes; at least let me say a word about it. I want to say to my hon. friend that I have examined the records, and that the largest number ever suggested by the British government in connection with the training of pilots in Canada was in the first part of 1938, when they suggested the training of 300 pilots a year; not 25,000 but 300. There is quite some difference between those figures.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that
proposal in writing?


James Layton Ralston: That suggestion was submitted to the Royal Canadian Air Force; and if I remember correctly, according to the records the answer came back that instead of 300 the number might be 235, I believe 201 for Britain and 34 for Canada. That proposition was submitted to Britain, and they came back with the suggestion that the number should be 135. I should have said that when the Prime Minister made the statement in this house to the effect that he felt this should be a Canadian scheme, instead of its being suggested in the British house, that never again would Great Britain ask Canada for anything, the Minister for Air, Sir Kingsley Wood, thanked Canada for that offer. I believe that statement was made in the House of Commons and placed upon Hansard. Finally, the arrangement was made for 50 pilots a year, and in 1939 this house voted $6,000,000 for the cost of that training.
That is the story with regard to the training of British pilots, as I read the records. So I do not think there is much point in anyone going back and talking about 25,000 pilots a year in connection with that previous arrangement, or saying that if the scheme had been in operation now, the training would have been completed and we would have had 25,000 pilots or any such number over there to-night if that scheme had been carried out. In point of fact, it was suggested that this should be a Canadian scheme, and the number was changed as the result of discussions carried on from time to time, discussions in which the British high commissioner participated all the way through. The British government thanked the Canadian government and accepted the proposition for the training of 50 pilots a year. That is the story with regard to that previous air training scheme, and this house voted money for it, together with money for the training of Canadian pilots.

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I have taken this much time to deal with this matter because my hon. friend has seen fit to refer to it once more. One further word and I have finished, because I am going through with this bill no matter what my hon. friends say in criticism with reference to the past. My hon. friend used one other word to which I want to refer. He used the word "complacency." If there is any word I dislike, it is that word "complacency;" and if there is any word that is foreign to my nature, if I may be pardoned for saying so, it is that word "complacency". Whatever may be my shortcomings, I do not think I can be accused of that. I am not satisfied with what goes on even in my own life, or with anything else that goes on around me. I think perhaps I may claim the reputation of being somewhat of a troublesome person, in that I am all too seldom satisfied with things as they are.


William Earl Rowe: I did not charge the minister
with that. I said he was surrounded by a certain amount of it.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend did use
that word "complacency".


William Earl Rowe: I did not refer to the Minister of Finance or to the Minister of National Defence for Air.


James Layton Ralston: Then I have taken it to
myself as a member of this government; for I have been here since September, and I accept my share of responsibility for what has taken place since that time. I say that is not a fair word. We endeavoured to work out a plan which we believed was sound, sane, forward looking and far-reaching, and indeed a heavy plan for Canada; and we have tried to carry out that plan to the best of our ability. We have not slacked on it for a moment. The ministers who have been engaged in carrying out that plan have done their level best in connection with it. I am not at all worried about what history may say. The thing I count as worth while in life is this, that if a man has in his own heart the feeling that he has done the best he could, it does not matter what history says. That is my feeling, and I say we have endeavoured to do the very best we could in connection with what we regarded as a full sized job for Canada.
Now, after having approved the first and second divisions and the ancillary troops which have gone overseas; after having increased the naval forces as we have; after having increased the air .force; after having provided for the defence of the east and west coasts; after having undertaken the air training scheme and carried it forward to the extent that has been mentioned to-night, namely, having it right up to the minute as
far as the development of the necessary institutions is concerned; after having carried out our economic policy; after having carried out our industrial policy and industrial development, a crisis has come upon us and we have to make many adjustments. I never agreed more thoroughly with the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe than when he said that if there was anything Canadians are noted for it was initiative and resourcefulness. I agree absolutely that if we cannot show initiative and resourcefulness in this crisis, we are not worthy of the name of Canadians Frankly, Mr. Chairman, I want to say to you, and through you to this committee, that this government has been trying as hard as men can try for the last fifteen days, ever since this crisis arose, to make every possible adjustment that could be made, in this plan or in anything else, in an endeavour to make the most effective contribution possible in the emergency which has suddenly loomed up. That is what we are busy with; that is what we are tiying to do. Because one sits here listening to quite a bit of criticism of the government without replying, that does not indicate complacency on my part, I assure you; I felt that the most important thing at the moment was to endeavour to get this bill through and this money voted in order that we might carry on with the job.
Perhaps the committee will pardon me for having taken these few minutes to make clear the position as I see it. I say we have endeavoured, not just by day but by night as well, to ascertain what changes might be made to the best advantage; and I may say that sometimes we have made changes in the face of protests from those who felt that they knew more about this plan than we did, who believed that the plan which had been mapped out in a certain way, whether the air training plan or any others, could not be changed. We have applied our best judgment, as ordinary human beings anxious to do a job, and with a full sense of our responsibility. We have endeavoured to find different ways and perhaps short cuts whereby this plan and our other plans might be carried out more quickly and more effectively, because this, for the time being at least, has become a day to day business. Our programme is going on, but our programme has to be adjusted, has to be supplemented, has to be varied, has to be modified and has to be made to work if we can possibly make it work, because no one knows better than I do the crisis we are facing to-night. So I want to assure you, Mr. Chairman, and this committee that this is what we are endeavouring to do.
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Constructive suggestions have come from all quarters of this house; I am perfectly free to acknowledge that valuable suggestions have come from hon. gentlemen opposite. It must not be thought that we have been asleep, that we ourselves have not been thinking, and that many things have not been worked out. We do not want any particular credit for it, but neither do we want any blame on the assumption that we have not been doing anything about it. We have been endeavouring to do our level best.
Now I have made this statement to you, Mr. Chairman, and to the committee. We are prepared to accept and act upon all the constructive suggestions we can possibly get from any quarter, and we welcome them. We welcome the cooperation we are receiving in this house, and I am only asking that hon. members, as far as possible, deal with the present, with the problems that are before us, with the situation that faces us. Let us together try to pull out; let us together try to fight this thing through to the end.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Chairman, I am not rising for the purpose of continuing this discussion along the lines that it has taken. My own view is that it has gone far enough. The minister has got off his chest some things that doubtless he wanted to get off. I have no doubt that he and the government have been smarting under the criticisms which have been leveled at them from one end of Canada to the other during the last fifteen days, and in which the terms "inertia" and "complacency" found a most prominent part. Those terms did not originate on this side of the house; they originated in the public press long before parliament met. Having said that, let us see if we cannot get back to the bill. I shall try to help the minister make some progress in getting this bill through parliament. This discussion, which seems to have got into a by-path, arose out of a question which was asked of the Minister of National Defence for Air, as to the time it would take to turn out a trained pilot. I quite realize that it may not be in the public interest to give information on this point.


Charles Gavan Power: Perhaps I can give it; twenty-eight weeks for a pilot, twenty^six weeks for an air observer, and thirty-two weeks for an air gunner.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have been trying to work it out. I may tell the committee that I have had the privilege of reading the secret agreement, but I am not going to divulge anything contained in that because it was shown to me in confidence. I
have been supplied, along with other hon. members, with a summary of the air training scheme. If hon. members will look at page seven, appendix one, they will see that there are seven categories of schools in the complete course of training. There are initial training schools, elementary flying training schools, service flying training schools, air observer schools, bombing and gunnery schools, air navigation schools and wireless schools. As I understand it, the training that might be given in these different schools could not be simultaneous. I would suppose that a pilot would have to go through seven different courses of training.


Charles Gavan Power: Not necessarily. For instance, the man who goes to a wireless school would be a wireless operator. He would not have to go to the navigation school.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He would not have to do that?


Charles Gavan Power: He would not.


Richard Burpee Hanson: He would not be an all-round air man if he did not go through the whole thing.


Charles Gavan Power: Some men are being trained as pilots, some as observers, some as machine gunners and wireless operators.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The second paragraph of appendix one contains the following statement:
The flying training and air observer schools will be developed at rates which will provide for their peak capacity for training pupils being reached by the following number of weeks after the date of opening:
Weeks
Elementary flying training schools.. ..	4
Service flying training schools	 12
Air observer schools	 6
That makes a total of 22 weeks. That seems to be different from what the minister said.


James Layton Ralston: I do not think all those schools deal with the same sort of pupils. An elementary training school and a service training school would be for the training of pilots, whereas the observer school would have nothing to do with the training of a pilot.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I should like to have some explanation. I am frank in saying that I do not understand very much about this scheme.


Charles Gavan Power: I did not until I studied the chart.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Perhaps if the minister would let us have that chart we could get some information which would

War Appropriation Bill
be of value. Could it be put on Hansard? We should like to know these things, provided it is in the public interest that they should be divulged. How long from the time a man signs on is it until he becomes a useful air man and is sent across the water?


Charles Gavan Power: Twenty-eight weeks for a pilot; twenty-six weeks for an observer, and thirty-two weeks for an air gunner. It may be the other way round, but I shall have the figures for my hon. friend.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This agreement was signed last December and we are now into May. Can the minister tell us how the time schedules are running in the different categories and how many student pilots have been taken on? Are we still at the beginning of that stage?


Charles Gavan Power: Up to the present every
school has opened on schedule; every class has entered the school on schedule; every graduating step will be taken on schedule; every airport has been ready on schedule, and every aeroplane that was required in the particular scheme has been ready on schedule. In so far as I am aware-and I have made strict inquiries within the last few days-we shall have no difficulty for some little time to come either with regard to opening schools, with regard to instructors or with regard to the necessary equipment. But in some little time we may have considerable difficulty.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is not my point.


Charles Gavan Power: That difficulty may arise out of the crisis. I thought that was understood. Does that answer my hon. friend?


Richard Burpee Hanson: In a
measure it does. Is the minister able .to say that men are now being trained under this scheme? When will the first man go forward? That would help me.


Charles Gavan Power: I would rather not say.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If that
information is not in the public interest, I will withdraw my question.


Charles Gavan Power: I have been asked not to say when the first will go forward. Certain things will arise out of the present crisis, but up to that crisis everything was up to date. We may have to change the plan considerably, and if we do we shall endeavour to keep the output as high as possible. We will probably accelerate the plan even though it has to be done at the cost of some part of the plan which is more in the nature of a long range programme.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would suggest to the minister that he give consideration to adding to this bill a section numbered seven providing that a detailed account of the sums expended under the authority of this measure shall be laid before the House of Commons of Canada during the first fifteen days of the next ensuing session of parliament. I think parliament ought to be informed as to what moneys have been spent.


Charles Gavan Power: That would not refer only to the air training scheme?


Olof Hanson: To the
money expended under this bill.
Mr. O'BRIEN: Section three reads:
The government of Canada may act as the agent of the government of any British or foreign country-
I am wondering if there is any closely coordinated contact as between the government of Canada and the other governments in connection with the supply of materials for use overseas. Is there close cooperation between this government and the ministry of supply in the United Kingdom and the government of France? If not, I think it would be advisable to have the closest cooperation.
I, along with many others in the constituency which I represent, am engaged in the lumbering business. We have noticed that there seems to be considerable confusion in respect of material wanted. At one time I believe Mr. Harris in the ministry of supply published a lengthy statement showing the quantity of material which might be required by the United Kingdom government. That list showed billions of feet of lumber and an enormous yardage of linoleum, as well as other articles.
In a short time we in the lumber business discovered that purchases had been virtually stopped, on account of the fact that the exchange problem became serious. I believe that not only in connection with the lumber but also in connection with agricultural and other products we in Canada are in a sort of fog, because we do not know just what is required. While I do not speak from a selfish point of view, I am trying to find out what we may be able to do by way of giving them the supplies of which they may be in need, as well as maintaining the economic and social order in our own country. That applies in lumber as well as in agricultural products. It seems to me it would be most advisable, when Canada is looked upon as a storehouse, for the ministry of supply to have somebody on this side of the water so that direct contact could be made. Such an officer could speak with some authority.
War Appropriation Bill

There is this further point I should like to bring up at this time. In view of the disturbing news received from overseas from time to time, and particularly in the last few trying days, it would seem possible- and let us hope that this condition may not materialize-that events may create for us a very unhappy and uncertain condition in Canada. I believe the committee would appreciate assurance from the Minister of Finance that the government has foreseen such grave possibilities of national economic stress, and that in so far as it is possible to foresee such a deplorable condition, steps have been taken to absorb the shock, so that our economic and social life in Canada may continue, even if in a crippled condition.


James Layton Ralston: With regard to the first
point raised by the hon. member, speaking generally, the matter of the purchase of munitions and supplies by the British government in Canada is done through the British purchasing commission, which is and has been in Ottawa. The British purchasing commission, in turn, by arrangement with the Canadian government asked the war supply board to act for them, as their agent. That arrangement was made very early in the organization of the war supply board, and has been continuing, and such orders as have been placed for munitions and supplies have been placed through the war supply board.
The hon. member has been dealing with timber. As I understand it, timber has been purchased in Canada through a representative of the British timber control. I have been tiying to remember the name of the gentleman; perhaps the leader of the opposition will remember. However, the gentleman I have in mind is living in Montreal, and .represents the British timber control. As I understand it, they have been making arrangements direct with the various lumber concerns in Canada. So far as I know, there has been no arrangement with or through the Canadian government by the British timber control.
Mr. O'BRIEN:	When the minister mentioned the organization in Ottawa, I believe he had in mind munitions, and not what might be described as civil goods. The gentleman to whom the minister referred might be Mr. Fensom.


James Layton Ralston: Yes, I think so.
Mr. O'BRIEN:	I believe he does not
occupy an official position, but is the representative of eastern Canadian lumbermen. As a matter of fact, a pool has been formed

in connection with the purchase of pit props, one of the articles required in great volume. They are on this side of the water at the present time, located at Moncton. We are also selling lumber privately through brokers in England, just as we always did.
As I said a little while ago, we were told that we could not possibly produce in the maritimes the volume of lumber which would be required. Then in a very short time it was discovered that the ministry of supply had stopped buying because of an exchange situation which had become difficult. It seems to me there is great uncertainty, and that if we had someone from the United Kingdom with whom the Canadian government could consult and from whom the individual exporter could obtain information based on authority, a great deal of uncertainty would be saved.


James Layton Ralston: I believe Mr. Wiseman is the trade commissioner attached to the office of the British high commissioner. I do not know whether he represents the ministry of supply, as a single department, but I do know that he is the trade commissioner for the British government. Does my hon. friend know whether or not Mr. Wiseman has been consulted ?
Mr. O'BRIEN: No.


James Layton Ralston: I shall be glad to make
inquiries about that, and about some other commodities which have been bought direct. I am sure that if we can get the British government to arrange coordination through one central bureau, it will be a substantial assistance for Canadian producers.
In respect of the other point raised by the hon. member I would say that the matter is receiving attention from hour to'hour. We are trying to see as far ahead as we possibly can, and make plans accordingly.


Howard Charles Green: Apparently the Minister of
National Defence for Air is planning to rush the construction of training fields this summer. Would it not be of assistance if the government were to recruit works battalions to help with that particular undertaking? The older men might be used, or those younger men who have been rejected for the active service force. It would serve the double purpose of hurrying up the work and also giving these men a chance to feel that they are doing something for their country.


Charles Gavan Power: So far as the suggestion
refers to airports, I shall be glad to refer it to the Minister of Transport, who is in charge of their development. In reference to the

War Appropriation Bill
construction work on hangars and aerodromes,
I shall be glad to give it the most serious consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-Loans authorized.
Joseph Henry Harris: Mr. Chairman,
in the discussion on the previous section I intimated that I would have a word or two to say on this one. The minister has already given the committee some idea as to what departments will benefit from the expenditure of this money. I believe he has given an estimate of $690,000,000, and he has $10,000,000 to spare. Probably he could tell the committee how he is going to raise the money-* how much will come out of the consolidated revenue fund, on the pay-as-you-go policy, how much he anticipates from the war certificates, and whether he expects it is going to be necessary to put out a Canadian loan. I say "Canadian" loan because I gathered from his previous remarks that he is going to raise practically all this money in Canada. Perhaps when he gives us the break-down, he will answer the question as to just how these funds are to be raised.
While I am on my feet, let me express the hope that there will be no blocking off of a geographical area of Canada and handing it over holus-bolus to certain financial interests in certain sections, so that they in turn, when it is necessary to raise money on loan, will have allocated to them a section which, because it lends a good deal of money for causes of this kind, will enable them to profiteer in the raising of those funds. Similarly, if the minister has in mind to raise some of this money in the United States, I hope he will be cautious about allotting certain sections, for the raising of money, to certain bond houses to the exclusion of others -a condition which obtained during the victory loan campaigns of some twenty years ago.
Could the minister give us some idea now as to how the consolidated revenue fund is to be replenished to the extent of this $700,000,000?


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid it is impossible to give the committee that information. Obviously the amount to be raised by taxation is a matter which has to be discussed when the budget comes down. The effect of the bill is that we ask that there be paid out of consolidated revenue $700,000,000, and my hon. friend is quite right in suggesting that I ought to be able to tell him how I am going to get it into the consolidated revenue fund before I get it out. Until the budget is brought down, I shall be unable to say what 83826-18
amount will be raised by taxation. Obviously, whatever amount is not raised by taxation will have to be raised by borrowing, and that borrowing, I confidently expect, will be done in Canada. I hope, unless there is some decided change, that there will be no possibility of attempting to borrow in the United States.


Joseph Henry Harris: Is the scheme which was outlined last night, relative to the war savings certificates that are on sale today, to provide part of this money?


James Layton Ralston: The proceeds of the war savings certificates which were on sale to-day go into the consolidated revenue fund, and in so far as the consolidated revenue fund is "replenished"-to use my hon. friend's expression-by the war savings certificates, and in so far as there are no other demands, the amount we have to borrow under this bill* will be just that much reduced. I was going on to say that such borrowing as is done under this bill will, I confidently expect, be done in Canada and will be provided from the savings of the Canadian people. I assure my hon. friend, if I apprehend his reference correctly, that the greatest of care will be taken and no monopoly will be given of certain areas of this country or any other country for the purpose of the disposal of bonds or for the making of profits in connection therewith. The results of the two hundred million dollar loan which was made in January, and which, by the way, was a united effort of the Canadian people in which the government received the fullest cooperation of public men of all shades of politics everywhere in the dominion, and the record made with regard to the matter of distribution, will, I hope, be some indication and some assurance to the committee that the evils to which my hon. friend has referred will not be found in any flotation under this particular measure.


Joseph Henry Harris: As the story we got last night indicated that there was very little cost involved in this war savings certificate issue, and as we know that there is considerable expense in the flotation of a loan of, we will say, $500,000,000, probably the minister and his advisers had some idea before they started as to what the result was going to be. To my mind the selling of these certificates is something which does not go ahead with a great deal of enthusiasm. People have to be educated. Perhaps for once the school children will be educating their parent that they ought to go out and buy a $500 bond. I should like to know what propaganda or what effort is being put forward by the



War Appropriation Bill
Department of Finance to stimulate this admirable method of raising funds. If one million homes took their maximum, that is, if all the homes in Canada participated, you would not have enough to provide your quota of $700,000,000. I suggest that some definite plan to stimulate the idea of the war savings certificate should be carried right through, so that there will be no decline in the enthusiasm which we are trying to inspire. The movement to-day, as the minister know's, is quite slow. I do not say that by way of destructive criticism; I couple with that statement the thought that it is a slow movement because the people have to be educated. I hope the finance department has some definite plan to push the idea right along so that the maximum of money at the minimum of expense will be raised by this means. Could the minister give us an idea of how much money he expects to get from these sales of war savings certificates?


James Layton Ralston: I appreciate my hon. friend's reference to the war savings certificates. He dampens my enthusiasm just a little when he speaks of the returns being slow to-day. At noon I saw both the national chairmen, and they were extremely enthusiastic with regard to what had taken place during the morning, and intimated that from a number of post offices and banks had come already applications for fresh supplies of application forms. Perhaps I took that as being better news than it really was. But my hon. friend sees pretty clearly what this job means. It is not like a war loan, in which you are over the top on Monday morning, and you are into the trenches and have carried the objective by Thursday or Friday night. This is a long pull, and my hon. friend is quite right in intimating that there must be, as he says, some stimulus or at least some " stick-to-it-iveness " in connection with the movement so long as it continues. I am one of those who hope it will continue after the war as well as during the war. Let me say to him that the general plan of organization is to have those two gentlemen, Mr. Beaubien and Mr. Somerville, as national chairmen. Then there are provincial chairmen, the names of whom I gave last night, gentlemen prominent in each province, who have gathered around them in the different provinces committees of different sizes, depending on local conditions.
With regard first to the schools, we have had, not a passive attitude, not just "God bless you," but the active cooperation of the provincial governments and the provincial departments of education. I anticipate that by the first of June, if not before, there will be in all the schools application forms for the

students. I was reminded this morning-just to give an indication of the physical task- that in Ontario there are some 8,000 schools and 700,000 school children. That means getting packages done up and sent to all these schools, and when you multiply that by the number of schools and the number of pupils throughout the dominion, you realize the magnitude of the task.
This morning in practically every mail box over the whole dominion there were application forms; this morning in every post office and in every bank the same situation existed. The work with regard to the schools will be done in cooperation with the department of education and with the teachers. It will be one of the biggest tasks, and that is where we anticipate that there will be a system of regular saving built up to last, we hope, during the war.
Perhaps some hon. members have seen the application form. It is rather an unusual document, being a combination of envelope and application form (with rules and regulations set out in simple language), so that one may sign the application form, put in one's four dollars, fold it up and mail it to the chairman; or if one has not four dollars one may open the form, buy a twenty-five cent stamp and paste it on; and when the sixteen spaces have been filled up, one can purchase a war savings certificate. It is a good many things in one. Some advertising will appear in the newspapers-some appeared this morning-and a programme has been mapped out to cover a considerable period of time. There will be special circulars for school children. Another circular will be sent to the children when the schools reopen in the fall.
In the meantime another large field is the industrial field, where we have the benefit of the services of men from the insurance companies. Some eight key men from the large insurance companies have given their services free,, and in addition to that the insurance companies have assigned eight hundred of their salaried men, who are familiar with group insurance and who are best qualified for the purpose, to get in touch with employers and employees in business concerns throughout the country with a view to having a regular plan prepared of saving by means of deduction from wages. Then there are the retail outlets and the stores and farms, the people in the mining and lumbering industries and the fishing industry.


Mr. STIRLING:: The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. Not only will there be the press and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, but we have secured, free, the

War Appropriation Bill
cooperation of all the branch radio stations and the film industry. The effort, therefore, will be a worth while one. The foundations have been thoroughly laid. It has involved a great deal in the way of planning and of physical equipment, and I wish to pay tribute to the men and women, the public authorities and all those generally who are cooperating so cordially to make the plan a success.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I wish to congratulate the minister upon the appointment of a high type of citizen in New Brunswick, Mr. George E. Barbour, who will do everything he can to forward the aims the minister has in mind. I wish to call the minister's attention to the words in the sixth, seventh and eighth lines of section 4. The governor general in council may, "in addition to the sums now remaining unborrowed and negotiable of the loans authorized by parliament". This $700,000,000 is to be in addition to the sums now remaining unborrowed and negotiable. Can the minister give us an idea of what these sums amount to, so that we may know the gross borrowing powder of *the government under the legislation heretofore passed and under this legislation?


James Layton Ralston: The other statute was the loan act of last year which authorized the borrowing of $750,000,000. The powers under that act were exhausted by the issue of about $20,000,000 of war savings certificates under the act. That was the balance left unborrowed of the $750,000,000.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5- Orders and regulations.
John Ritchie MacNicol: During the last few days I have had quite a number of letters with reference to the matter referred to in paragraph (b), "allowances to soldiers' dependents." I refer to the widowed mother of a soldier. There is also a daughter in the family. The young man enlisted and went overseas. He was paying his mother $12 a week or $48 or more a month. At the time he enlisted, so he states, the papers he signed were to the effect that his mother was to receive, in addition to the $20 assigned pay, $35 separation allowance. Since then the allowance has been cut because the daughter, it is said, is receiving a matter of $20 a week. The daughter claims that, having insurance and other expenses to meet, she cannot contribute to her mother's support, but the board takes no notice of that contention. The result is that the daughter has left home, so that there is just the mother at home, and all she receives is $10 in addition to the assigned pay. This 95826-18J
is not a satisfactory state of affairs. It is bad to break up the family because an agreement of this kind is not carried out.


James Layton Ralston: What was being contributed by the son?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Twelve dollars a week before he enlisted.


James Layton Ralston: Has the hon. member
written to the board? Would he mind sending me a statement?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Why is paragraph (b)
here at all? It is already covered by the existing statute. Why should it appear in this bill?


James Layton Ralston: It is only precedent, so
far as I know.


Major James William Coldwell: There is a typical case which I might be permitted to put before the minister. A boy now seventeen years of age joined the signallers corps two years ago. When war came, he was instructed to report and he did so. He is now an orderly with the rating of a class A boy. He receives 70 cents a day-for a twenty-four hour day incidentally. My information is that all the soldiers' pay rates by classification have been proclaimed except the class in which this boy happens to be. Apparently this entire class has not yet been proclaimed. The father consented to enlistment. The boy assigned one-half of his pay. The parents are on relief in a province where very little relief is paid. They were getting $2 a week for their fuel this winter, and so far the father has received none of the assigned pay, no allowance of any description. It seems to me that this may be a typical case of a class and therefore I am bringing it before the minister in order that it may be looked into. The complaint is that this particular class has not been proclaimed.


James Layton Ralston: My friend means that
this class has not had a rate fixed according to a classification?


Major James William Coldwell: That is right.


James Layton Ralston: What class was it my
hon. friend mentioned?


Major James William Coldwell: Class A boy.


Ernest Edward Perley: This section is very important. It gives wide powers to the minister, with the approval of the governor in council of course. I think the minister should make a statement with respect to the practice that
War Appropriation Bill

will be followed in letting contracts. I refer more particularly to paragraphs (c) and (e), which I read:
-the governor in council may, by order or regulation:-
(c) prescribe administrative practices with respect to contracts and agreements for the execution of any public work or for the acquisition of lands, buildings, equipment, stores, materials and supplies, by purchase or otherwise, for the use of the public service of Canada;
(e) prescribe administrative practices with respect to the making of financial commitments, the taking of security for the performance of contracts and agreements, and the recording and paying of accounts.
The minister should make a definite statement with respect to the practice that will be followed in order to protect the department in taking security or providing a drawback or holdback with respect to the contracts that will be let under this measure. Large sums of money will be spent; large contracts will be let. There was a practice followed in the defence department in 1939 of which I do not think the present minister would approve. He stated earlier this evening that he had been in this government only since September last. I know this committee would not approve of the practice of which I speak. The practice was complained of by the auditor general in his report for 1939 just tabled last week. At page 236 he says:
Cost plus contract, payment of holdback prior to completion of work-vote 184.
I requested the department to inform me why the holdbacs provided by the contract for the construction of defence works was paid to the contractors before the work was completed. The department stated that the payment was made in order that "the funds provided in 1937-38 might be fully expended." I pointed out that the payment could not be justified on these grounds, and that by long established practice it has been customary to require security from contractors for the due performance of the work, either by a security deposit or a drawback on progress estimates, or both. The department replied-
This is the statement of the auditor general to which I desire to draw the particular attention of the committee and the minister:
-that in the case of this cost plus contract the interests of the department were well safeguarded and consequently the clause relating to the holdback had been deleted under the authority of the governor in council.
And the footnote is, " No further action was taken."
I do not think the minister would approve of that practice being followed, a contract let, an agreement made, then afterwards an order in council passed deleting the clause in the contract which provided a holdback as security for the government interest.
[Mr. Perley.l


James Layton Ralston: I refer the committee to
the statement made by the minister acting as Minister of Munitions and Supply on May 22, in which he set out the practice with regard to purchases made by the Department of Munitions and Supply, by which practically all the contracts referred to here will be let. The statement will be found on pages 129 and 130 of Hansard. The minister there indicates that the method of tenders and contracts and lowest competitive price is the practice. Where there are exceptions, he points out that it is where the entire output of the industry is needed; in that case the industry is asked to divide orders among its members, and we depend on the reports of the government auditors to fix the prices when the order is completed. His statement continues:
Those that have not been awarded by tender have all received the severe scrutiny of men who are not in the strict sense of the word government employees but are serving on the executive committee of the department without salary. In other words, one or more members of the executive committee of the department are required to initial any order placed except as the result of competitive tender where the low tender has been accepted.
The cost plus form of contract has been eliminated and where competitive prices cannot be established auditing firms are retained to examine manufacturers' costs to determine a fair price for the product. At times the suppliers' books are audited by chartered accountants both before the contract is completed and afterwards. All profits are kept to a level consistent with the competitive situation.
It is possible that there are better ways of allotting government contracts than by awarding the work to the lowest tenderer, but no one knows a better means of safeguarding the public interest. Business is placed without competitive tender only when a situation is found that will not permit competitive tenders being obtained, or when fair prices have been established in the locality by recent competitive tender. Where we have a recent tender for a certain amount of goods, and further goods of the same kind are required, the practice is sometimes followed of extending an order at the previous competitive price.
The committee can be assured that this practice will be followed, subject to this, that in the emergency the government has given to the Minister of Transport wider powers in order that he and his executive committee may, if necessary, close contracts or get work done more expeditiously, or in the phrase sometimes used, cut red tape. I feel that, generally speaking, we ought to follow well established procedure; but there are cases, and this is one, in which the government feel that there may be instances in which it is necessary, in the public interest and in order to expedite matters, that all the safeguards which are generally thrown around public contracts be

War Appropriation Bill
not exacted. In that case the government, and the minister acting as Minister of Munitions and Supply, will take and of course will have to take full responsibility. But I can assure the committee that the exceptions will be just as few as possible.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This is a very important section, having regard not only to the amount of money to be expended but to the practice that has been followed heretofore. I read with a good deal of care the statement made by the minister on May 22 last. He admits the principle of public tender; he says it is possible that there are better ways of letting government contracts than by awarding the work to the lowest tenderer, but no one knows a better means of safeguarding the public interest. That is a very sound principle. I wonder what steps have been taken to safeguard the public interest by calling for public tenders. I am afraid that practice has not been followed very closely by the department. I am sorry the Minister of Transport is not here-


James Layton Ralston: That statement will be on the record. I want to assure my hon. friend and the committee that the Minister of Transport is away on most important business.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have no doubt that is the case, and perhaps it would be just as well if the discussion were allowed to rest here until he comes. I have in mind this sort of thing: I am afraid the practice is still being carried on of having people on the selected list; that they are being asked to quote on certain things, and that the ordinary man who might tender does not know anything about the contract until it is let. It has been said that contracts have been let before tenders are called for, but I will not go that far. I have heard of a case under the provincial government of New Brunswick where a man was on the job before the time was up for tenders to be received. I know of one ease of that kind personally, but I am not suggesting that this has been done here. I have in mind, however, a case where a selected list of contractors were asked to tender on a public work. The contract was awarded to one of three tenderers, and within twenty-four hours the company to which the contract had been awarded sublet the contract in its entirety to a fourth party.


James Layton Ralston: Under the war supply
board? Since the beginning of the war?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Oh, yes; since the war. I do not like to tell my hon. friend the name of the party or where this took place, but it concerned an important defence work, the construction of fortifications.


James Layton Ralston: I think I know what my hon. friend has in mind.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That contract was let to a company which was not especially in that kind of business, and it was sublet by the successful tenderer to a first-class contracting firm. There is an unearned profit there to somebody, and that is not in the public interest. That is one sort of case. There are other classes of contracts that might be investigated a little further. On the whole I think we might have a profitable discussion, without acrimony, if this whole matter were to be left until the minister comes back. It is nearly eleven o'clock now, anyway. As a matter of fact, the section is so wide and sweeping that it occurred to me that we should consider it subsection by subsection. The hon. member for Yale referred to paragraph (b). I suggest to the minister that this is entirely regulated by existing legislation and ought not to be in the bill at all. In the meantime he might make some further inquiry in regard to this point.


James Layton Ralston: With all due respect to my hon. friend, he is not going to get me to jettison anything in this bill that has been there previously if I can help it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There may be a reason for it, of course; but at first blush, if I may put it that way, there is no reason. Then I have been looking at paragraph (a) and wondering if we were putting aside entirely the provisions of the Civil Service Act. I understand that employees of the Department of Munitions and Supply and of the Department of National Defence are being secured through the civil service commission from approved lists of persons who have passed examinations and so on. This subsection, of course, simply puts aside the whole principle of the Civil Service Act. After all, these are civil employees.


James Layton Ralston: If my hon. friend will permit me, under its statute the Department of Munitions and Supply has full power to make appointments without reference to the civil service commission, which is just the provision we have here. But the government has adopted a practice under which, although the government has the right to make the appointments, the matter goes to the treasury board which in turn refers it to the civil service commission, for the purpose of obtaining information before the appointments are recommended to the government. So, while my hon. friend says the Department of Munitions and Supply obtains its employees through

War-Western Front Developments
the civil service commission, that is by reason of the fact that the government, notwithstanding its power to make the appointments direct, itself voluntarily refers the matter to the civil service commission.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Of course the fact that parliament has erred heretofore is no reason why it should err again. I think as far as possible, having regard to the exigencies of the case, we should stick to the Civil Service Act. I know there may be times when you cannot go through what I may call the red tape of having men or women appointed by the civil service commission, but still there is a principle involved even in war time. We know that under the Civil Service Act regard must be had for the approved lists, although the treasury board may take the last one on the list without taking the names in rotation. I think the minister should give further consideration to this point. Perhaps we might call it eleven o'clock now and let this whole section stand.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Ralston the house adjourned at 10.58 pun.
Tuesday, May 28, 1940

(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)