1940-11-27

LIBRARY OF PARLIAMENT

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house has appointed the honourable the Speaker and Messieurs Adamson, Aylesworth, Black (Chateauguay-Huntingdon), Bruce, Cardiff,.

Questions
Casselman (Grenville-Dundas), Castleden, Emmerson, Eudes, Farquhar, Fontaine, Fournier (Maisonneuve-Rosemont), Gershaw, Goulet, Graham, Green, Henderson, Howden, Hurtubise, Jaques, Jean, Lizotte, Macdonald (Halifax), MacKenzie (Neepawa), MacKenzie (Lambton-Kent), Macmillan, Marier, Martin, Mayhew, Moore, Poirier, Pouliot, Purdy, Raymond, Reid, Rickard, Ross (St. Paul's), Shaw, Telford, Thauvette, Warren, Winkler, Wood and Woodsworth, a committee to assist his honour the Speaker in the direction of the library of parliament, so far as the interests of the House of Commons are concerned, and to act on behalf of the House of Commons as members of a joint committee of both houses on the library.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house will unite with them in the formation of a joint committee of both houses on the subject of the printing of parliament, and that the members of the standing committee on printing, viz., Messieurs Bercoviteh, Bertrand (Terreboone), Blanchette, Bourget, Casselman (Grenville-Dundas), Castleden, Chambers, Chevrier, Claxton, Cloutier, Carman, Damude, Denis, Dubois, Durocher, Edwards, Emmerson, Esling, Evans, Ferland, Fleming, Fraser (Peterborough West), Furniss, Goulet, Grant, Green, Halle, Healy, Hlynka, Hurtubise, Kuhl, Leader, MacDiarmid, MacKinnon (Kootenay East), MacLean (Cape Breton North-Victoria), McGregor, McNevin, Mills, Moore, Mulock, Nicholson, Purdy, Rheaume, Ross (St. Paul's), Sinclair, Sissons, Soper, Tucker, Tustin, Weir, White, Whitman, Winkler and Wood, will act as members on the part of this house, on the said joint committee on the printing of parliament.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 4, to amend the National Resources Mobilization Act, 1940.
Some lion. MEMBERS: Explain.
Mr. CHURCH:: Mr. Speaker, this bill is complementary to the one I introduced a few days ago amending the Militia Act, and will have the effect of preventing the exemption of conscientious objectors. It will amend the National Resources Mobilization Act by striking out therein the reference to conscientious objectors.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, with the
consent of the house I move:
That consideration of the special order relative to the debate on the address to His Excellency be suspended until the house has proceeded to the orders respecting questions and notices of motions for the production of papers standing on the order paper.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated iby an asterisk.)

Mr. FAIR:: What is the number and value of war contracts, by provinces, awarded to individuals and corporations by the Department of Munitions and Supply and its predecessor purchasing bodies from September 1, 1939, to date, for (a) war materials and supplies of all kinds, (b) construction contracts?


Mr. HOWE:: Answered by the minister,
page 244 of Hansard, in reply to a question by Mr. Hazen, M.P., and page 262, Hansard.


DEBERT MILITARY PROJECT
Mr. PURDY:: 1.	Is the government aware that as at November 14, the civilian employees on the Debert military project had not been paid for the two-week period ending October 31, and that previous pays had also been seriously delayed?
2.	If so, has this matter been adjusted since the above date?
3.	Will steps be taken to ensure that in future payment will be made within 5 days of the closing of the pay periods, i.e., 15th and end of each month?


Mr. POWER:: 1.	It is the practice of the Department of National Defence to pay civilians employed on military projects on the 1st and 15th of each month. However, at present, conditions at Debert are somewhat abnormal in that about
4,000	cheques have to be issued each pay day. Pay lists have to be checked and defence tax calculated for each individual payment. This does not allow of the cheques being issued in less than ten days after each pay day. Actually it means a delay only in the first pay.
2	and 3. See answer to No. 1.
Questions


BUREAU OF PUBLIC INFORMATION-STAFF
Mr. BENCE:: 1.	What are the names of the persons employed in the bureau of information?
2.	What is the salary and/or allowance of each such person?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1 and 2.
Name
G.	H. Lash	
Claude Melancon	
W. Herbert	
George Hambleton....
S. Cuddy	
Miss M. Mosley	
Miss H. Hilborn	
Miss J. MacMillan...
Miss E. Hodgins	
Miss F. Potts	
Paul Houle	
Rene Danis	
Miss M. Hennessy....
Miss E. Simpson	
Miss E. Wilson	
Miss M. Lever	
Miss J. Love	
Miss H. Lavigne	
Miss M. Mascoe	
Miss J. MacDonald...
Cornelius Curtin....
George Halpern	
Arthur Schryburt....
Guy Jasmin	
Placide Labelle	
J. G. A. Boisvert...
Miss T. Brunet	
Miss M. Menard	
Miss P. Swanson	
M. Seguin	
Bruce West	
Joffre Dechene	
Miss D. Hall	
Miss C. Asselton....
Miss J. Emond	
Miss M. Olairoux....
Mrs. Olive Bums	
Miss B. Gallien	
Miss Jacqueline Nolet
George O'Connor	
A. Pettitt	
H.	Bickerton	
L. W. Brockington....
Salary	Allowance
Nil		
Nil		
$4,800 per year 			Nil
$3,000 per year 			Nil
$3,240 per year 			Nil
$1,380 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 420 per year 			Nil
$ 420 per year 			Nil
S 420 per year 			Nil
$ 10 per day 			Nil
$ 10 per day 			Nil
$1,380 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$ 720 per year 			Nil
$ 420 per year 			Nil
$ 10 per day 			Nil
$ 180 per month 			Nil
$1,080 per year 			Nil
$ 19 per week			Nil
$ 18 per week			Nil
$ 18 per week			Nil
$ 60 per month 			Nil
$ 60 per month 			Nil
$ 60 per month 			Nil
45 cents per hour 			Nil
45 cents per hour 			Nil
45 cents per hour 			Nil
$ 750 per month 			Nil


PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION-SASKATCHEWAN COMMUNITY PASTURES
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: 1.	How many community pastures are operating in Saskatchewan under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act?
2.	What is the rate of fees for each animal kept in these pastures?

3.	How many cattle have been lost through disease while in these pastures for each of the years 1938 and 1939?
4.	How many cattle have been lost through theft from these pastures for each year since they commenced operation?
5.	What provision is made to recompense the owners of cattle lost by theft while in these community pastures?

Questions


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	52.
2.	49 pastures:	monthly rate-cattle 35
cents; horses 50 cents. Summer season rate- cattle $1.75; horses $2.50. Winter season rate -horses $2.
3	pastures: monthly rate-cattle 30 cents;
horses 40 cents. Summer season ratecattle $1.50; horses $1.75. Winter season
rate-horses $1.50.
3.	1938-4; 1939-5.
4.	None.
5.	The dominion does not assume responsibility for cattle lost by theft.


S.S. &quot; NEW NORTHLAND &quot;
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	Has the government chartered the New Northland from the Clark Steamship Company Limited?
2.	If so, is it a charter party, or under what arrangement is this vessel being used by the government, and what subsidy or remuneration is being paid for it?
3.	What service is this vessel performing for the dominion government?


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: 1.	The vessel was chartered by the British Admiralty.
2.	It is not expedient for this department to publish information with regard to the use to which the Admiralty have placed this vessel.
3.	Answered by No. 2.


MINES AND RESOURCES-PUBLICATIONS
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	Have publications been distributed by the Department of Mines and Resources since January 1, 1939?
2.	If so, why were these publications not distributed by the king's printer in accordance with the Public Printing and Stationery Act?
3.	Has the government taken any action on the recommendation of the auditor general in his report for the year ending March 31, 1940, page 174, that these publications should be distributed by the king's printer?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Publications of the Department of Mines and Resources are being distributed by the king's printer but it has not been considered practicable to place distribution in his hands exclusively. Requests for technical information can best be dealt with by persons familiar with the particular subject. Frequently explanations and data supplementary to that contained in departmental reports are necessary and can only be supplied by technically qualified departmental officers. Some publications are sold or distributed at points
away from Ottawa, for example historic site booklets which are sold at the particular sites described in the booklets. National parks literature of a general character is distributed by the national parks bureau to which requests for copies of such literature are normally addressed. Such pamphlets are also used to reduce correspondence.
3.	No. The policy which has been in effect for many years is being continued.


ILE D'ENTREE, MAGDALEN ISLANDS, LIGHTHOUSE KEEPER
Mr. ROY:: 1.	Is Mr. D. K. McLean, lighthouse keeper at lie D'entree, Magdalen islands?
2.	If so, what is his annual remuneration?
3.	Is he performing any other duties?
4.	Does he receive a pension as a returned soldier?
5.	If so, 'what is the amount of such pension?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$1,980, out of which he is required to provide for the services of an assistant.
3.	So far as the Department of Transport is aware, he has no employment other than his position as lightkeeper.
4.	Yes.
5.	$24 per month.


*TRAN S-CANADA HIGHWAY
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	What is the total estimated cost of the federal coast to coast highway?
2'. What has been the total annual expenditure on this highway since the commencement of the project?
3.	What part or parts and mileage of this highway was built each year?
4.	What is the total estimated mileage of the survey?
5.	How many miles of this highway have yet to be completed?


Mr. CRERAR:: The federal government has no eoast-4o-coast highway project under construction. I assume that what was in the mind of the hon. gentleman in asking this question was the federal government expenditures on the trans-Canada highway. If my hon. friend will reflect, he will realize that the matter of roads is wholly within provincial jurisdiction. The other portions of his question would come under this answer. However, for the information of my hon. friend and of the house I might state that at various times in the past assistance has been given to some of the provinces toward the cost of road projects which, when linked up, would go to make a coast-to-coast highway. The government has no information as to what the total costs of these projects would be, although it could furnish information as to

Questions

what, the federal government has advanced up to the present time. A section of what will be a trans-Canada highway was built by the federal government in British Columbia under an agreement with the province, the section running from Golden to Revel-stoke. Also the portions of the road constructed in Banff and Yoho national parks would be a -wholly federal expenditure.


PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE-YIELDS NOT ACCEPTED BY COMMITTEE OF REVIEW
Mr. MARSHALL:: 1.	What awards were made under the_ terms and provisions of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act covering yields not accepted by the committee of review?
2.	Were any awards made where hail was the cause of low yield? If so, where and under what conditions?
3.	In what townships were overpayments made and unrecovered as at November 1, 1940, and what were the circumstances regarding these overpayments?


Mr. GARDINER:: 
WAR MATERIALS AND SUPPLIES-PURCHASE AND MANUFACTURE IN CANADA
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: 1.	Are the following being manufactured in Canada: (a) Lee-Enfield rifles, (b) Colt and Browning aircraft machine guns, (c) two-pounder anti-aircraft guns and carriages, (d) 25-pounder quick-firing guns and carriages, (e) 40 mm. Bofors anti-aircraft guns, (f) 3-7 anti-aircraft guns and mounting, (g) 20 mm. Hispano Suiza aircraft guns?
2.	Have any of these been produced and delivered?
3.	How many of these have been manufactured in Canada?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Answered by the minister,
pages 264-265, Hansard.
establishment of french-canadian military


COLLEGE IN PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmorency):
Will the government establish in the province of Quebec a French-Canadian military college similar to the one already existing at Kingston, Ontario?
Mr. POWER:: This involves a question of policy. Should the government decide to establish a military college in the province of Quebec, this policy will be announced in due course.


CANADIAN FORESTRY CORPS
Mr. NICHOLSON:: In view of the reported lack of sawmills in Great Britain to cut the available home grown timber, has the government considered the feasibility of increasing the strength of the Canadian forestry corps beyond the twenty companies which have now been raised?


Charles Gavan Power: This question involves a
matter of policy. This matter has been the subject of discussion between the British and Canadian governments, and the number of 14873-29$
units mobilized was arrived at after consultation between the two governments. The question of mobilizing further companies is a matter of policy which will be announced in due course.
free DISTRIBUTION OF APPLES IN NORTHERN SASKATCHEWAN


Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: In view of the large surplus of apples, has the government considered free distribution of apples in northern Saskatchewan where the frost has ruined wild and domestic fruit crops?


James Garfield Gardiner: It will be difficult to
answer this question because of its wording. It is not anticipated that there will be a large surplus of apples this year. Therefore, the matter referred to has not been given further consideration.


'  ALASKA HIGHWAY COMMISSION-TABLING OF REPORT
Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: 1.	Has the joint Alaska highway commission presented a report to the government on its findings ?
2.	If so, will it be tabled?
3.	Has a decision been arrived at as to when construction of this project will be started?
4.	If so, what route has been.chosen?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This question has reference to the report of the joint Alaska highway commission, and I should like to supplement my answer to the question by tabling the report of the commission at this time.


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: Might
I ask the Prime Minister when the reports of the joint Alaska highway commission will be made available to the members of the house? I know that one copy has been tabled.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The report has not been printed. My hon. friend will probably have to consult the report in its typewritten form. If I can accommodate him in any way by lending him an extra copy, I shall be happy to do so.


SCHNEIDER-CREUSOT COMPANY-MR. SCHNEIDER
Mr. DUBOIS:: 1.	Is the government aware that one Mr. Schneider of the Schneider-Creusot Company of France had business connections with a Canadian firm in 1939-40?
2.	If so, what is the name of such firm?
3.	What is Mr. Schneider's first name?
4.	Is the said Mr. Schneider the same individual who was interested in the Skoda factories in Czechoslovakia in 1939?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The government has no information regarding any of the points raised in this question.
Questions

chaplain GENERAL OF THE CANADIAN SERVICES


Mr. COLD WELL:: What action does the government propose to take in the case of the Chaplain General of the Canadian forces who, on November 20, 1934, according to press reports, extolled Mussolini and expressed a readiness to be one of Hitler's followers?


Charles Gavan Power: If my hon. friend will permit me to say so, I think his question is probably informative and perhaps provocative rather than inquisitive. The government is not aware of the press report referred to. The appointment of Colonel, the Right Reverend Bishop Wells as principal chaplain, Protestant, was decided upon last October after full inquiry into his qualifications, and nothing which has since occurred would indicate that any error of judgment was made in his selection. The Right Reverend Bishop Wells is now overseas. He saw service in the South African war and in the last war.


TRADE BETWEEN CANADA AND JAPAN
Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: 1.	Has the government taken the necessary steps to stop the importation of goods from Japan into Canada?
2.	Has the government taken the necessary steps to stop the exportation of all war supplies from Canada into Japan?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.	4 t
2.	Under section 290 of the Customs Act and under the War Measures Act, a system of control for exports to all countries has been established. The policy of maintaining an absolute priority of Canadian supplies for the requirements of Canada, her allies and those countries whose economic and industrial resources have been made available for the prosecution of our war effort, has been in force since the outbreak of hostilities. Infoi-mation regarding certain commodities, export of which is being restricted accordingly, was given to the house on November 12.


SMALL ARMS LIMITED
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	Where is Small Arms Limited located?
2.	Who financed the construction of the plant for Small Arms Limited?
3.	Who are the officers of Small Arms Limited?
4.	Is Small Arms Limited under the control of any other company?
5.	If so, what is the name of the company?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Long Branch, Ontario.
2.	The dominion government.

3.	President and General Manager, G. S. Braden; vice-president, Paul Bourget; secretary, Robert Flavelle; directors, N. P. Peterson, Jas. I. Simpson.
4.	No.
5.	Answered by No. 4.


WAR CONTRACTS-PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaCROIX (Quebec-Montmorency):
1.	What is the total amount of contracts awarded in the province of Quebec since the outbreak of war?
2.	What was the total amount of the contracts awarded, since the outbreak of war,
(a)	in Quebec city; (b) in Quebec-Montmorency county; (c) in Levis county?
Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Refer to Hansard, page 262.
2.	Refer to Hansard, page 244. Mr. Howe's reply to Mr. Hazen's question.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY


Mr. LOCKHART:: 1.	Is Senator E. S. Little engaged in any
work for the Department of Munitions and Supply?	_
2.	If so, what are his duties?
3.	What living or other allowances are paid to him?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. I.


REPATRIATION OF CANADIAN SECURITIES IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
Mr. COLDJVELL:: 1.	What arrangements have been made with the British treasury for the disposition of some sixty Canadian stocks, bonds and debentures requisitioned in the United Kingdom this month by this government? Are they to be repatriated?
2.	Are the said stocks, bonds and debentures to be turned into dollars?
3.	Is the entire operation to be undertaken through the Bank of Canada?
4.	Upon repatriation, what particularly does
the government propose to do with (a) Canadian National Railways' 41 per cent guaranteed bonds, 1951; (b) Canadian National Railways' 41 per cent guaranteed bonds, 1956; (c) Canadian National Railways' 41 per cent guaranteed bonds, 1957; (d) Canadian National Steamships' 5 per cent guaranteed bonds, 1955; (e) Grand Trunk perpetual 4 per cent consolidated debenture stock; (f) Canadian National Railways' (G.T.P.)	3 per cent mortgage bonds. 1962;
(g) Canadian National Railways' (G.T.P.) 4 per cent sterling bonds, 1962?
5.	What plans have been made by Canada regarding all other Canadian corporation and industrial stocks requisitioned in the United Kingdom?
6.	What is the total dollar value of securities to be repatriated under this operation?

Questions


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	The Canadian stocks, bonds and debentures listed in the recent vesting order issued by the treasury of the United Kingdom are to be repatriated, as indicated by the Minister of Finance in the House of Commons (Hansard, page 282). The Canadian government has made arrangements with the government of the United Kingdom for the purchase of the Grand Trunk 4 per cent perpetual consolidated debenture stock, payment of interest on which is guaranteed by the dominion. The other securities are being sold as opportunity offers, and the sales are being effected on behalf of the treasury of the United Kingdom under the supervision of Mr. T. Carlisle Gifford, representative of the treasury, who in turn is represented in Ottawa by Mr. G. I. Stewart. The Bank of Canada is acting as adviser. It is understood that any bona fide bids to purchase these securities are being considered by the representatives of the treasury of the United Kingdom, that every effort is -being made to obtain fair prices for these securities and that particular care is taken to ensure that security markets in Canada will not be disturbed by these transactions.
2.	Yes.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	The question in respect to the Grand Trunk 4 per cent perpetual consolidated debenture stock has been answered by No. 1. As regards the remaining securities referred to in paragraph 4 of the question it is probable that the United Kingdom authorities will be requested not to make any sales except to institutions owned by the dominion government.
5.	Answered by No. 1 and No. 2 above.
6.	For reasons related to the orderly and effective marketing of these securities, the treasury of the United Kingdom has never made public the value of securities delivered to the treasury under vesting orders. Because of the fact that the Grand Trunk 4 per cent perpetual consolidated debenture stock will not be offered in the market, the objection to publication of figures does not apply. While the amount of this stock owned by residents of the United Kingdom is not yet known, the Minister of Finance estimated that the vesting operation should eventually result in the transfer of about $109 millions to British account in Canada (Hansard, page 282). It may safely be anticipated that -the total value of the other securities concerned in this question will be substantially less than the amount of this Grand Trunk stock.


HINCHCLIFFE, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. NICHOLSON:: 1.	Did the Post Office Department notify the branches of the Canadian Legion at either Preeceville or Endeavour, Saskatchewan, of the intention to appoint a new postmaster at Hinchcliffe?
2.	Did the Post Office Department write to J. Ross Barrie of Pelly, Saskatchewan, on July 19, 1940, asking him to recommend a suitable person for the post of postmaster at Hinchcliffe, Saskatchewan? If so, for what reason ?
3.	Is it customary for the Post Office Department to write to defeated government candidates in connection with recommending suitable postmasters ?


Mr. MULOCK:: 1.	No. But in accordance with the usual practice a notice was sent to the provincial command.
2.	Yes. To obtain a nomination.
3.	Yes. Where revenue of the office is under $3,000.
defence OF CANADA REGULATIONS-PEACEFUL PICKETING


Mr. COLDWELL:: In view of the answer of the Minister of Justice at page 258 of Hansard, will the government give immediate consideration to the amendment of the Defence of Canada Regulations, so that labour's right to peaceful picketing may not be restrained?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: The
matter referred to in this question is before the courts, and when a decision has been rendered the question of whether it is advisable to amend the regulations will be considered.


Thomas Langton Church: Is it not -the rule that the Minister of Justice who is the Attorney General of Canada shall not be asked to give legal opinions in the bouse?


Ernest Lapointe: The hon. member is quite right.


REPRESENTATIONS AS TO BOMBING IN TERRITORY OF AXIS POWERS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the government made any representations to the government of Great Britain respecting the bombing by Britain of cities and other parts of any territory of the axis powers?
2.	If so, what were they, and when were they made?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
Questions

suggested committee on war effort and SUBVERSIVE PROPAGANDA


Thomas Langton Church: Does the government propose to move the appointment of a select committee of the house to (a) investigate and report any subversive anti-Canadian and anti-British propaganda in Canada; (b) to report on Canada's war effort, and how more direct and immediate aid can be afforded to enable Britain to take the offensive in the battle of Britain and other European war areas?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government's intentions in this regard will be made known in due course.


DOCTOR E. W. STAPLEFORD
Mr. QUELCH:: 1.	Is Dr. E. W. Stapleford employed in any department of the government?
2.	If so, what is the annual salary paid to him?
3.	What are his duties?
4.	What allowance, if any, does he receive for expenses?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	$5,000 per annum.
3.	Director of the division of voluntary services, Department of National War Services.
4.	None. Actual expenses when travelling on business of the department.


PURCHASES OF COAL
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	How many tons of coal were purchased from the United States by the Canadian' National Railways during 1939 and 1940?
2.	How many tons were purchased from other countries?
3.	How many tons, and what was the actual cost per ton of this coal delivered at (a) Halifax, (b) Saint John, (c) lake ports?
4.	Was any of this coal imported by rail? If so, how much, and what was the actual cost per ton?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Coal purchased from the United States for Canadian National railway lines in Canada: 1939, 1,055,375 net tons; i940 (to October 31), 1,546,080 net tons.
2.	Coal purchased from other countries for Canadian National railways in Canada: 1939, from Canadian mines, 2,916.645 net tons; from British mines, 706 net tons; 1940 (to Oct. 31), from Canadian mines, 2,759,462 net tons; from British mines, 30,793 net tons.
3.	Deliveries by water to various ports: 1939, Halifax, nil; St. John, nil; Midland, 72,771 net tons; Depot Harbour, 21,190 net tons; Fort William, 235,797 net tons; 1940 (Oct. 31), Halifax, nil; St. John, nil; Midland, 65,720 net tons; Depot Harbour, 21,307 net tons; Fort William, 215,987 net tons.

4.	United States coal imported by rail: 1939, 724,802 net tons; 1940 (to October 31), 1,243,066 net tons.
Note:	Re prices, Questions 3 and 4:
As the railway management feel it is not in the railway interest to do so, it has not been the practice to make public prices paid by the management for materials and supplies, though such information is made available to the standing committee on railways and shipping if requested.


RACIAL ORIGIN OF OFFICERS AND MEN ENLISTED FOR ACTIVE SERVICE
Mr. HLYNKA:: 1.	What is the total number of enlistments for active service in Canada at the present time of the following racial origins: (a) Anglo-Saxon; (b) French; (c) Ukrainian; (d) German; (e) Polish; (f) Jewish?
2.	What number of each of the above six groups on active service are there in each of the nine provinces?
3.	What is the total number of officers on active service in Canada of the following origin: (a) Anglo-Saxon; (b) French; (c) Ukrainian; (d) German; (e) Polish; (f) J ewish ?


Charles Gavan Power: I have replies from all three of the service departments and they all agree that this information is not available in the form requested. To obtain the information would entail a search of all these service files and the diversion of a considerable staff from its regular duties. It would mean looking through the documents of every soldier, sailor and airman. If the house requires it, we may get the information next year some time.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.


SULPHATE OF AMMONIA
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	How much sulphate of ammonia was imported into Canada during 1939?
2.	How much sulphate of ammonia was produced in Canada during 1939?


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Sulphate of ammonia imported into Canada during the calendar year 1939- 3,217 tons.
2.	Sulphate of ammonia produced in Canada during the calendar year 1939-129,865 tons.


IMPORTS OF CORN
Mr. HATFIELD:: 1.	What amount of dutiable corn was imported into Canada during 1939?
2.	What amount of duty free corn for manufacturing purposes was imported into Canada during 1939?
3.	What was the value per bushel of the
duty free corn imported for manufacturing purposes?	_
4.	What is the amount of corn now held iu storage in Canada?

Questions as Orders jor Returns


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton West):: 1.	Dutiable corn imported into Canada during the calendar year 1939-2,310,279 bushels.
2 and 3. Duty free corn imported into Canada during the calendar year 1939-For distillation, 250,000 bushels, 51 [DOT] 1 cents per bushel. For starch or cereals, 1,824,417 bushels, 57-1 cents per bushel. Corn, n.o.p., 3,484,296 bushels, 57-2 cents per bushel.
4.	Com in storage-November 24, 1939, 6,445,966 bushels. November 22, 1940, 3,920,439 bushels.


FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OFFICE ACCOMMODATION
Thomas Langton Church: On account of the congestion and lack of adequate office space and housing accommodation in Ottawa, will the government give consideration to having a survey made (a) of office space needed now and in the near future in Ottawa; and (b) to see if part of the government's own offices and that of government commissions and boards cannot be moved to Toronto, Hamilton and Montreal, where space is available, so as to afford better accommodation, and in the interest of efficiency and economy in government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I think this question might be answered by assuring my hon. friend that the government is giving continuous attention to the subject of office space and housing accommodation in Ottawa.


Thomas Langton Church: Might I ask the Prime Minister what he means by "giving continuous attention" to the lack of office space and housing accommodation in Ottawa? Is it like the attention the government is giving to free fares for the soldiers and soldiers' insurance? There is great congestion in Ottawa.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The answer means just what it says. The government is giving attention to the matter of space and accommodation and to the difficulties of congestion in the city, etcetera, and in that connection is taking account of opportunities here and elsewhere in seeking to meet the situation.


Thomas Langton Church: Are not some of the offices provincial and doing concurrent work?


PROPOSED NAVAL COLLEGE
Mr. GILLIS:: 1.	Is the proposed naval academy referred to by the minister for the training of officers only?
2.	Will (a) ordinary sailors and (b) sea captains be eligible to take training in this academy?
3.	Will the minister state just what class of applicants will be eligible to enrol?


Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):: The matter of the type of training to be given, the standards of admission, and other like questions are now under consideration.
QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR .	RETURNS


GOLD FROM BRITISH COLUMBIA
Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Has the government obtained any gold from any source from British Columbia during the last two months? If so, from whom?


Mr. ILSLEY:: Return tabled.


GOVERNMENT PURCHASES OF BUILDINGS IN OTTAWA
Mr. BOUCHER:: 1.	What buildings in the city of Ottawa have been purchased by the dominion government since September 1, 1939?
2.	From whom was each such building purchased?
3.	What was the purchase price in each ease?
4.	What amount of floor space is available in each such building?
5.	For what purpose is each of these buildings being used?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Return tabled.


ORDNANCE AND ADMIRALTY LAND, QUEBEC CITY
Mr. MacKINNON (Kootenay East):: 1.	What ordnance and admiralty land in the city of Quebec is occupied by civic authorities?
2.	What is the extent of such land?
3.	What is the value of such land?
4.	What revenue does the government receive from such land?
5.	Has any settlement been arrived at with the civic authorities for the payment of said land.
6.	If not, why?


CONNAUGHT RIFLE RANGES-CONSTRUCTION AND IMPROVEMENTS
Mr. BOUCHER:: 1.	What was the cost of construction and improvements to Connaught rifle ranges?
2.	What is the total acreage?
3.	To what use were the Connaught rifle ranges put last year?
4.	To what use will they be put during the war?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.


GOVERNMENT LEASE OR PURCHASE OF VESSELS
Mr. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: 1.	How many vessels, if any, of 1,000 tons or less, has the government purchased or leased from private individuals or companies since September last?
2.	Who were the vendors of these vessels?
3.	What was the purchase price in each case?
4.	What was the lease price in each case?
5.	What was the nature of each of these vessels?

Questions as Orders for Returns
6.	How many of them were yachts or pleasure boats?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.


Mr. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: This question, which has been passed as an order for a return, is a repetition of a question which was asked in the previous session and was not answered. I would ask to have substituted for the words "September last" the words "September 10, 1939."


WAR MATERIALS AND SUPPLIES-PURCHASES IN AND OUTSIDE CANADA
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: How many of the following have been produced and delivered to the government for the Department of National Defence, (1) by Canadian factories, (2) from outside of Canada: (a) pairs of boots, (b) suits of battle dress, (c) blankets, (d) pairs of braces, (e) service shirts, (f) greatcoats?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.


Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	How many judges are there in Canada paid by the federal government?
2.	How many judges are there in each province paid for by the federal government?
3.	What are their salaries?
4.	How many retired judges are there on superannuation ?
5.	How much do they receive from superannuation?
6.	Do the judges do any other work such as sitting on royal commissions?
7.	If so, how much do they receive for sitting on royal commissions, (a) in salary; (b) living allowances?


Ernest Lapointe: Return
tabled.


TAXES-COLLECTIONS SINCE 1935
Mr. ROSS (Souris):: What amounts were collected in each fiscal year since 1935 from the following taxes: (l)income tax: (a) individual, (b) corporation, (c) five per cent tax; (2) sales tax; (3) special excise tax; (4) excise tax on cables, telegraphs and telephones; (5) excise tax on railway accommodation; (6) excise tax on matches and lighters; (7) excise tax on cigarette papers and tubes; (8) excise tax on motor vehicles; (9) excise tax on tires and tubes; (10) excise tax on toilet preparations and soaps; (11) excise tax on cigars; (12) excise tax on sugar; (13) excise tax on playing cards; (14) excise tax on wines; (15) stock transfer tax; (16) other excise taxes collected by revenue stamps; (17) excise duty on spirits; (18) excise duty on malt; (19) excise duty on beer; (20) excise duty on malt syrup; (21) excise duty on cigarettes; (22) excise duty on cigars; (23) excise duty on tobacco; (24) customs duties, less drawbacks and refunds?


James Lorimer Ilsley: Return tabled.
IMr. A. C. Casselman.]



EAST CALGARY SUPPLY DEPOT-CONTRACTS FOR BUILDINGS

['I quite agree with my hon. friend that such statistics would be extremely valuable, but I doubt that they are available.\nMotion as amended agreed to.']
Charles Edward Johnston: What is the government's contract price of each of the buildings at the supply depot (Nos. 11 and 2) in east Calgary?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.



Mr. LECLERC:: 1.	What -were the ordinary and special revenues of the Dominion of Canada during the years 1936, 1937, 1938, and 1939?
2.	What amount was contributed by each of the provinces during the above years?
3.	What is the population of each province?
4.	What amounts are required for the following: (a) ordinary administration expenditures;
(b)	interests on the debt of the dominion;
(c)	national railways deficits to be met?
5.	What amount was contributed by the federal treasury to each province of the dominion during the above years: (a) in regular grant; (b) unemployment relief contribution; (c) unemployment relief works;
(d)	loans to provinces; (e) advance payments made on wheat in each province?
6.	Were the loans referred to in section (d) of previous question refunded?


ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE-CHAPLAINS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Who are the chaplains on full time and part time serving the Royal Canadian Air Force in No. 1 air training command at Toronto, and where are they located?
2.	What are the number of men enlisted by denominations in this air command?
3.	On what principles are these appointments made, and is consideration given to the number of men enlisted according to denominations in making these appointments?
4.	Have any representations been made to the government in the matter by any heads of clerical organizations in Canada?


Charles Gavan Power: Return tabled.


CASUALTIES TO SOLDIERS IN CANADA
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	How many airmen have been killed in
Canada while in training since this war started, and where?	,	.
2.	Were any coroner's civilian inquests held into the causes thereof, or only military inquests ?
3.	How many soldiers were killed on troop or other railways while serving in Canada, (a) Canadian National, (b) Canadian Pacific railway?
4.	What inquests were held into the causes thereof (a) by civilian authority, (b) by military authority, or (c) by the board of transport commissioners ?
5.	Will any findings or reports herein be tabled ?
6.	How many soldiers were killed and injured in each military district on the highways by motor cars or in other accidents?

Motions for Papers


Charles Gavan Power: This question will stand as an order for return. I should like to point out to my hon. friend that it will not be possible to produce 'the documents referred to in question No. 5, "Will any findings or reports herein be tabled?"


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: Coroners' reports are public documents, and they should be available.


Charles Gavan Power: The department has no control over civilian inquests, or coroners' investigations.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The department should have a copy.


NATIONAL REGISTRATION
Mr. HANSELL:: 1.	What was the total cost of the national registration?
2.	What was the total cost of registration in each constituency apart from printing, etc.?
3. What was the total cost for printing, stationery, etc.?
4. What was the total number of people registered?


James Garfield Gardiner: Return tabled.


LEASE BY GOVERNMENT OP PROPERTIES IN KINGSTON
Mr. MacKINNON (Kootenay East):: 1.	Is the dominion government the lessee of properties at 202 Johnson street, and 156 King street, Kingston, Ontario?
2.	If so, from whom are they leased?
3.	What was the cost of reconditioning each of these properties and rendering it suitable for government occupation ?
4.	What rent is being paid per month in each case?
5.	For what purpose is each property being used?
6.	Did not the government own other property in or near the city of Kingston which would be equally suitable for the purpose for which either of these properties is being used?


LEASE BY GOVERNMENT OF PROPERTIES IN PORTSMOUTH, ONT.
Mr. MacKINNON (Kootenay East):: 1.	Has the government acquired the property known as Calderwood at 188 Union street in the village of Portsmouth, Ontario?
2.	If so, when, and what was the purchase price?
3.	What is the acreage of this property?
4.	What is the total of expenditure made by the government on this property since it was purchased?
5.	To whom is the property leased at the present time?
6.	What is the period or term of the present lease?
7.	Who is occupying the property at the present time?
8.	How long has he occupied the property?
9.	What rent is being paid per month for this property?
10.	Is this property suitable for government purposes?
11.	If not, why?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I suggest that to pass this question as an order for return is not a very fair way of disposing of it. The answers to this question and the two immediately preceding would be very short.


Charles Gavan Power: Had the question been
worded, "Is the Department of Naval Affairs or the Department of National Defence the lessee of properties, or has either one of the departments acquired certain property," it would have been a simple matter to answer the questions, but they are asked with respect to the dominion government generally, so that all departments would have to be circularised before an answer could be given.


NATIONAL RESOURCES MOBILIZATION-MEN CALLED UP BY PROVINCES
Mr. DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	How many men have been called up for training under the National Resources Mobilization Act?
2.	What are the particulars by provinces?


James Garfield Gardiner: Return tabled.


J. N. BAYNE AND H. S. CARPENTER
Mi DIEFENBAKER:: 1.	Are the following persons engaged in war
or government service:	(a) J. N. Bayne,
(b) H. S. Carpenter?
2.	If so, in what departments, and by whom were they recommended?
3.	What does each receive by way of (a) salary, (b) expenses?
4.	Were both of these persons formerly in the employ of the government of Saskatchewan? If so, in what capacities?
5.	Are either or both in receipt of superannuation or retirement allowances from the province of Saskatchewan? If so, in what yearly amount?


MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all rules and regulations issued by order in council or otherwise under the Wartime Service Act, 1940.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, it should read, "under the National Resources Mobilization Act" instead of "under the Wartime Service Act, 1940". A return partly answering the question has been brought down and it is the balance of the information that I am requesting.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With that
amendment, there is no objection.
Motion as amended agreed to.

Motions for Papers


PERSONS RELEASED FROM INTERNMENT
Mr. G. R. BOUCHER (Carleton) moved:: For a return showing the number of persons in each of the following categories: Germans, Italians, communists, National Unity party, who have been released from internment since July 27, 1940.


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, as I said the other day, a return has been made as required under the regulations as revised by the parliamentary committee last year. I have consulted the officials of the department with reference to this question, and I am of opinion that it should be referred to the committee which is going to sit again this session to consider the regulations. If it is found advisable that the information should be made public, I would have no objection, but in the meantime I think that in the public interest the matter should stay as it is.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I
suggest that in the return which the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) filed, the number of internees in the different categories *was shown-not the names but the numbers. The corollary seems to me to be that we should have the numbers of those released in the different categories-not the names but the numbers. The department has this information and it is readily available. The only point at issue, as I see it, is the advisability of doing it here publicly or doing it in camera in committee. I am all for publicity, and I ask the minister to be so.
Motion dropped.


REJECTIONS OF ENLISTED MEN SINCE SEPTEMBER, 1939
Hon. H. A. BRUCE (Parkdale) moved:: For a return showing s comparative statement of the number of rejections, for medical reasons, of men who enlisted in the Canadian army since September, 1939, as compared with a similar period of the first great war.


Charles Gavan Power: Mr. Speaker, I see no very great objection to the motion provided we are able to furnish my hon. friend with the information, but I think he himself will recollect that during the last war this question of rejections on medical grounds was a rather controversial one; and I fear that I would not be able to obtain in the files of the department such information as he might consider accurate. I should not like to undertake to ask the officers of the department to go over all these old files, and so I would say "yes" to the first part of the motion and "no" to the second part.


Herbert Alexander Bruce: My object in asking the question was to be able to answer statements made in this house as to deterioration in the health of our people. I hoped that it would have been found that there had been no deterioration in the health of our people since the last war.


Charles Gavan Power: I quite agree with my hon. friend that such statistics would be extremely valuable, but I doubt that they are available.
Motion as amended agreed to.



MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY-CONTROLLERS

['I have already answered that.']
Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):: For a copy of all orders in council appointing and prescribing the powers of the controllers in the Department of Munitions and Supply, together w-ith a copy of any regulations or orders made by such controllers and/or by the war time industries control board.



Arza Clair Casselman: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between the governments of Canada, United States and the province of Ontario or between any officials of the said governments from January 1, 1935, to the present time, referring to:	(a) a double-stage development of the
international section of the St. Lawrence; (b) a single-stage development of the international section of the St. Lawrence.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I may say to my hon. friend the member for Grenville-Dundas that I am informed with respect to this matter that such exchange of views as there was took the form of conferences and was not by correspondence and that there is nothing to bring down in the way of correspondence. I assure my hon. friend that if anything can be found it will be brought down. But that is the information that I have.


Arza Clair Casselman: Possibly I can ask a question which will direct the right hon. gentleman's attention to the point in which I am interested. Is the government of Canada in possession of a document signed by Doctor Hogg, chief engineer of the hydro electric power commission, supporting a single-stage development of the international section of the St. Lawrence, as opposed to a double-stage development of the St. Lawrence?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall have to inquire so as to be perfectly sure of the reply, but I will give my hon. friend an answer to-morrow.


Georges Parent: Stands.

Motions for Papers


PERMANENT JOINT BOARD ON DEFENCE
Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, memoranda, agreements, and other documents passing between the government of Canada or any officer thereof and the government of the United States or any officer thereof, during the years 1936 to 1940 inclusive, regarding the joint defence of Canada and the United States, together with a copy of all leases, if any, of bases or of any territory belonging to Canada, in connection therewith; and also a copy of all correspondence, etc., exchanged between the government of Great Britain or any officer thereof and the government of Canada, within the said period, relating to the same matter. Also a copy of any orders in council in connection therewith.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I say to my hon. friend and to the house it will be observed that this return asks for documents regarding the joint defence of Canada and the United States. Obviously, any correspondence or documents relating to that particular subject could not be tabled without the consent of the United States government. That would have to be obtained in the first instance. I think, however, hon. members will see that neither the government of Canada nor the government of the United States would wish to table at this time any information which would likely be of service to the enemy. Certainly correspondence which relates to the joint defence of Canada and the United States would be viewed in that light, and it would not be advisable, I think, to have any such brought down.
I might say to my hon. friend that during the conferences which have been held in the United States it was neither suggested nor contemplated by either government that any bases in Canada would be leased to the government of the United States. There may be some documents in the nature of records that might be tabled. I will have a search made, and if there are any such I will seek to oblige my hon. friend by bringing them down, but, beyond an order in council or two, I doubt whether there is anything which could be tabled at this time.


Thomas Langton Church: May I say to the Prime Minister that I see no reason why all this correspondence should not be given the people of Canada in the form of a white paper. With regard to his references to Washington, most of this information 'has already been published down there; one can find it in the records of congress and the senate, press interviews and statements issued. But the people of Canada are on the whole totally ignorant of most of these matters of defence and foreign affairs.
On July 10 I asked the Prime Minister regarding this, when the debate on the estimates was in progress, and he said that the government had no commitments or understandings of any kind with any government wheresoever. Within a month or so after that discussion on the estimates and on a bill, it was found that there was another agreement made at Ogdensburg which has in it nothing that is new, because it simply lays down what the Prime Minister said before, that the two cardinal principles of our defence policy are home defence and the protection of our neutrality, and if our good neighbours next door know the facts I can see no reason for withholding them from the Canadian public. The fifty newspapermen got them when they were here; they were supplied with information, and some of the information appeared in their newspapers. I see no reason for the objection to the text of the motion.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend says that some of ithe correspondence has been published in the United States. If that is the case I certainly shall see that any such correspondence is immediately tabled. I imagine what my hon. friend has in mind is a statement given out at Ogdensburg. I gave this statement to the house and it is already on our Hansard. I shall also take steps to ascertain whether there is other correspondence which the government of the United States is prepared to have tabled. I will go just as far as it is possible 'to go in the matter, but I certainly will not go to the length of tabling any information which might be of service to Germany at this particular time.


INTERNMENT CAMPS-MENUS
Alexander Malcolm Nicholson: For a copy of the menus provided for German prisoners of war in an internment camp in Canada covering a one week period.


Pierre-François Casgrain: I am sorry I cannot give that information to my hon. friend because there is no menu.


ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE-NUMBER OF CASUALTIES AND ACCIDENTS IN CANADA
Mr. CASTLEDEN:: For a return showing, month by month, the number of deaths, crashes and serious accidents to Royal Canadian Air Force personnel which have occurred since the commonwealth air training plan was put into operation in Canada.
National Defence-Unit Prices


ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE-FINDINGS OF COURTS OF INQUIRY
George Hugh Castleden: For a copy of the findings of all Royal Canadian Air Force courts of inquiry held in each case of serious accident since the commonwealth air training plan was put into operation in Canada.


Charles Gavan Power: I have some doubt whether it would be in the public interest to permit such a return. I have consulted with the officers of the department and they are unanimously of opinion that no such documents should be produced.


Thomas Langton Church: Are any civilian inquests held?


Charles Gavan Power: I have already answered that.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Burpee Hanson: I desire to remind the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) that on Wednesday last, November 20, I requested the government to give consideration to the question of bringing down the estimates for the next fiscal year before the house adjourns for the long vacation, which, it is intimated, will continue until February 17 next, some ten weeks. Is the Prime Minister in a position to make any announcement in this regard to-day, and if not, will he do so before the house adjourns?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I may say to my hon.
friend that the estimates will be brought down immediately on the reassembling of parliament after the adjournment, but it will not be possible to have them brought down before. I would remind my hon. friend that the estimates are for the fiscal year 1941-42, which begins on April 1, 1941, and he, I am sure, will be the first to realize that it is desirable, if the estimates are to be as accurate as possible, that the government should take advantage of such opportunity as it may have in the interval of an adjournment to have them revised with the utmost care.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The answer is. no.
[Mr. Castleden.l



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Charles Gavan Power: If I may be permitted to give the result of my inquiries into the seamiest recesses of the slimy question of garbage cans


Richard Burpee Hanson: I didn't
say "slimy," I said, "prosaic."


Charles Gavan Power: It appears that there was
a great deal of misunderstanding in the departments, and perhaps my hon. friend and the departments were at cross purposes. I may take some little time to give the full explanation of this, and I will ask the house to bear with me while I do so.
The first question answered in the return brought down on Wednesday last was:
How many garbage cans have been ordered for use in military camps?
My hon. friend, I think very properly, when the reply came that such articles had been ordered in the month of January, said they could not have been ordered in the month of January because military camps were not thought of at that time. The reply should have read, a total of 26,000 for all army purposes-Cor army purposes generally and not military camps in the sense of training camps. The reply did not so read and my hon. friend had a right to object. The total was 26,000.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am
really interested only in the question of unit prices.


Charles Gavan Power: I am coming to that, but
I wish to have the whole thing cleared up. Ten thousand have not as yet been delivered. The next question was:
From whom were they ordered, and at what price ?
As is the custom when the operations of two departments are involved, the answer which it was proposed to submit on behalf of the Department of National Defence (army) was sent to the Department of Munitions and Supply, through whom these goods were purchased. I may say in passing that at the time the purchase was made it was the Defence Purchasing Board of Canada. That was in September 1939. That reply, after being vented, so to speak, by the Department

National Defence-Unit Prices
of Munitions and Supply, was returned to the Department of National Defence with this comment:
The answer meets with our approval, except that the answer for section 2 of the question should not give unit prices, and we would prefer that you kindly have these deleted from your answer, with the notation, "It is not in the public interest to give unit prices on any commodity." This follows the policy which we have adhered to on all questions of this kind. When we give the quantity, we do not give the unit price. When we do not give the quantity, we will give the total amount of the contract.
This is signed by J. A. Marsh, purchase investigator of the Department of Munitions and Supply, but I hasten to add that though in this, as in many other things, Mr. Marsh was not in entire agreement with me on questions of policy, he was acting under instructions received, so that I am not ascribing any responsibility to him. However, I have now the reply:
Through the Department of Munitions and Supply.
Large:-
Canadian John Wood (Vancouver) Ltd.- 600 at $3.95 each.
Great West Metal Products Ltd.-1,500 at $3.65 each.
General Steel Wares Ltd.-6,900 at $3.82 each.
General	Steel	Wares	Ltd.-2,000	at	$3.95
each.
Collins Never Fail Products-2,000 at $2.60 each.
Small:-
Canadian John Wood (Vancouver) Ltd.- 300 at $2.74 each.
Great West Metal Products Ltd.-650 at $2.50 each.
General	Steel	Wares	Ltd.-5,050	at	$2.05
each.
General	Steel	Wares	Ltd.-7,000	at	$2.10
each.
The next question was:
How many were sent to each military district ?
The reply to that question has, I believe, already been tabled. The next question was:
When were they shipped to each military district, and when did they arrive?
The answer is:
Various	shipping dates from 1st	January,
1940, to date.
It really should be February 1, onwards. It will be impossible for us, without very much work, to get the shipping date, when each separate order was shipped to each district.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would
not ask it.


Charles Gavan Power: The next question is:
Were they put into immediate use or were they stored?
That is where the great question of interpretation arises. In the minds of the people in the office of the Master General of Ordnance, when the order has been given and delivery made and the goods shipped to each district depot, it is considered that the goods are in immediate use. They do not check up with each unit that may require a garbage pail, as to whether each unit has one garbage pail or two or a dozen. I am advised that we could, if it were necessary, find out exactly how many were actually in the local depot stores. The district in which my hon. friend is interested is No. 7. So far as headquarters are concerned, however, they say that the goods are put to immediate use when they have been delivered to the depot stores of military district No. 7. I have a long report on that but I do not think I need read it.
The next question is:
If they were stored, where were they stored?
Some immediately in use were handed over to the units-it might be the army service corps or the infantry.
Those not immediately in use were stored in district ordnance depot. If details are required these can be furnished.
That answers all the questions asked, I believe.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The only point of the interrogatory I put was on this principle: Were we to get unit prices? The minister has given certain information. Am I to understand that is to be the practice in future? If so, it is quite satisfactory to us; but if the government takes the attitude, which the Department of National Defence apparently took in the first instance, that parliament and the public are not to have unit prices on any commodity even so prosaic as garbage cans, then we take sharp issue, because we think the public ought to know. That is the whole point of the inquiry.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Since the Department of Munitions and Supply and its policy have been mentioned, I may say that the only purpose of the department is so to conduct its business that tenderers quoting can have reasonable protection in respect of information which might be supplied to their competitors. In a private transaction where tenders are called for, where a large departmental store such as Eatons is buying, any firm can quote on the understanding that its competitive position is
National Defence-Unit Prices

protected; that is to say, if it quotes a special price for special reasons, that is a matter between that firm and the buyer. We should like to prevent blanket questions being asked in the house-questions such as, for example, "What are you paying for cloth?" The answers to such questions might be of advantage to firms in the same line of business who might wish to obtain that business and to secure the competitive position of the fortunate contractor.
I have made it quite clear at all times to our staff, however, and I think they understand it, that if anyone wishes to know about' a particular transaction, so far as we are concerned we are quite prepared to bring down full information. If hon. members would like to know the price on a certain contract for shoes made at a certain plant-what the unit price was-we would be prepared to answer the question; but to ask what we are paying for all shoes bought is to put a question which we would naturally object to. In other words, if it is a specific question about a specific transaction we desire to give the fullest possible information; if it is a blanket question having for its possible purpose the benefiting of unsuccessful tenderers, putting them in a position to know how to tender the next time, we object. Our only purpose is to conduct the business of the department as efficiently as a large private firm would be able to carry on the same sort of business.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have
no desire to debate the matter, but I wish to leave this query with the minister and ask him to think it over. In view of his statement, I am wondering whether, in the expenditure of public moneys, it is desirable that information of the widest kind should not be given to the public. I am afraid his statement will be subject to misinterpretation.
With regard to this particular instance, I knew nothing about this matter until the hon. member for Victoria-Carleton (Mr. Hatfield) called my attention to it. He was not looking for information to aid any competitor; he had no such idea in his mind.
I should like the government to give some further consideration to this question whether in the expenditure of public money there should not be the widest publicity as to prices. I am going to leave it right there. We will all think it over. There may be very sound reasons why the policy enunciated by the minister should be carried out, but at the moment my mind runs the other way.



SHIPPING

[Stage Direction]
QUESTION OF CANADA^ PROVIDING SHIPS TO ENABLE FREE MOVEMENT OF TRADE
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: I
should like to ask the Minister of Transport (Mr. Cardin) a question in connection with the shipping board. It arises out of an address broadcast over the radio last night from London by Right Hon. Ronald Cross, Minister of Shipping, in which he said that the rate at which England is now building ships does not make up for losses due to the submarine menace and air raids on shipping.
Would the minister make a further statement in a day or two if he is speaking in the present debate, either as Minister of Public Works or as Minister of Transport in charge of shipping about Canada's stand?-because there is a very grave disaster threatening. Mr. Cross made an appeal to the United States of America and to the dominions to come to the help of the mother country in providing ships so that Britain will not be starved out and that trade may move freely.


Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Public Works and Minister of Transport):: The question raised by my hon. friend involves a question of policy on the part of the government. I would ask him to let the question stand as a notice.



PICTORIAL POSTERS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Thomas Langton Church: I
noticed in the cafeteria a number of British posters. It is charged that Canadians are not taking matters relating to this war seriously. In the last war these pictorial posters were used widely and to good effect in public buildings, railway stations, hotels and schools. They have proven very effective in England and I would ask if something could not be done about using the same methods in Canada.


James Garfield Gardiner: The matter referred to is at present not only under consideration but certain actions have been taken in regard to it by the bureau of information.

The Address-Mr. Esling



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: I wish to ask the following questions of the Minister of Agriculture:
1.	Has the Saskatchewan government applied to have a crop failure area declared in that province under section 4 of the Prairie Farm Assistance Act?
2.	Have investigations been made by the federal Department of Agriculture showing such claim to be justified?
3.	If so, is it the intention of the government to declare this area a crop failure area within the meaning of the act?


James Garfield Gardiner: The answer to the first question
is yes.
As to question No. 2, the investigations by the board are not yet completed.
The answer to question No. 3 is in accordance with that to No. 2.



ORDER IN COUNCIL DECLARING 1940 AN EMERGENCY YEAR

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. P. E. WRIGHT (Melfort):: I wish to ask a question of the Minister of Agriculture. Has an order in council been passed yet declaring 1940 an emergency year, and if so will it be tabled before the house adjourns?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, the order in council has been passed. I will see that it is tabled.



CEREALS IMPORT COMMITTEE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: May I ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce who is acting in Canada for the British cereals import committee at the present time?


Hon. J. A. MacKINNON (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Answering offhand
I would say that the British cereals import committee, acting in connection with wheat purchases, is in touch with the wheat board.


Richard Burpee Hanson: That is
not the point. Who is representing them?


James Angus MacKinnon: There is nobody that I know except the wheat board.



GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SPEECH


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, November 26, consideration of the motion of Mr. Brooke Claxton for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Hanson (York-Sunbury) and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Blackmore.
Mr. W. K. ESLING (Kootenay West):: This unusually long debate prompts a reference to the comment of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) regarding the rules of the house, with particular bearing on the time limitation on speeches of private members. If it is proposed to have a committee appointed to discuss changes in the rules it is to be hoped that the time limit will not be abolished, because in the years since the rules were last amended, in 1927, there have been but few occasions when a private member could not touch the highlights in the debate on the address or in the debate on the budget within the limit of forty minutes. If we were all gifted with the ability to speak as rapidly as, for example, the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie), when he is in high gear, we could get through our speeches in much less time.
As to the reading of speeches, I know it is unpleasant for you, Mr. Speaker, to have to call the attention of a private member to the fact that he is transgressing the rules, but perhaps if the rules are to be amended it might be made optional whether a private member reads or speaks from notes. It is not always easy for an inexperienced member to speak offhand. He is able to make a more impressive speech, and perhaps a more aggressive speech, if he reads it. Then too a private member is somewhat at a disadvantage in comparison with a minister, because a minister has his publicity staff to prepare his notes, put them in sequence and so on, and he has his private secretary. A private secretary is of real value if he can write a speech for a minister to fit any occasion and also be responsible for his minister's political if not his spiritual welfare.
This session was called for the purpose of permitting the ministers to give to parliament and to the country at large a review of the war activities of each department of the government. It must be admitted that there has been given very little that had not already been broadcast or published through the bureau of information or through the various other publicity agencies. I should
The Address-Mr. Esling

like hon. members to ask themselves, have the ministers given to this house any new information in connection with the war beyond the fact that commissioned officers must come up from the ranks and that there is a possibility of extending the term of training under the National Resources Mobilization Act from one month to four months?
There have been criticisms and there have been comments and suggestions and complaints from private members, and perhaps the government may be disposed to take action, particularly in connection with suggestions which are not given in a critical spirit. Take for example the Minister of National War Services (Mr. Gardiner); in connection with the calling of men to the training camps he might be disposed to let it be known that Canadians who are attending universities in the United States, sometimes by reason of the fact that they desire special courses at a university or are taking advantage of scholarships, may be permitted to take their training course after their studies are completed. Word went out to all of them, and the parents were caused considerable trouble because those students were told to report for medical examination. It interferes with their studies, and more than that they are under a heavy expense if they have to come home. Further, the local banks vouched for these boys, and they had to secure from the foreign exchange board permits to cover their tuition. When we refer to a matter, part of which is connected with statutory legislation and the other part with regulations, we realize of course that the statutory legislation must be complied with.
But may I cite the case of a young man who gave up a service station and enlisted in the 111th battery. That battery was transferred to Edmonton. No sooner had it reached there than he was sent to hospital, where he remained for one month. After hospitalization he was discharged from the army and was given a warrant for his transportation to the place of recruiting, namely, Nelson, British Columbia, a distance of 600 miles. The whole journey would require about 30 hours. Despite the month he spent in hospital at Edmonton, no sooner did he reach his destination at the point of recruiting than he was again taken to hospital for another month. After discharge from that hospital he went to his home and was again taken to hospital for a period of four months.
The point I make is that this man, whose condition was such that he had to be hospitalized for six months, was given a warrant for his fare, but no provision was made for a berth or meals. That man had to sit up for
[Mr. Esling.l
almost thirty hours. If one travels on the trains to-day he will meet many commissioned officers. Possibly they pay part of their expenses out of their own pockets, but we do know that they have comfortable accommodation. We know they take their meals regularly. While a commissioned officer may be of greater importance from the standpoint of the military code, the fact remains that a buck private is just as human and should at least have some consideration.
That boy has asked reimbursement for his hospitalization, and lie is told that there is no provision for such reimbursement. I refer to this case particularly because I know similar instances will undoubtedly develop. I suggest that when a man is in such poor physical condition it is not unreasonable to provide him with at least a berth and meals. Let me ask any member of the government or any hon. member if he would permit or expect his son to make such a trip without such provision.
May I now speak briefly about taxes. At the last session the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) brought down the heaviest taxation budget in the history of Canada. The people accepted it with good grace, and they are expecting even heavier taxes in the next budget. They will accept them with good grace

they will always accept taxation with good grace, so long as there is no evidence of profiteering, patronage or a lack of business ability in the operation of the various departments. I suggest however that the minister-ought to give serious consideration to taxation by the provinces. Relations between this government and the legislatures in the provinces are such that, regardless of the report of the commission on dominion-provincial relations, it should be in a position to persuade the provinces to curtail their expenditures. To-day in British Columbia, on the-eve of an election, they are bringing down the heaviest budget in the history of the province, in the face of the greatest revenue the province has received. Is that any evidence of cooperation with this government? Not the least.
Many times in the house we hear the statement that the government should conscript wealth. Of course it should. The budget shows that the Minister of Finance has not overlooked that fact. I took the trouble to obtain figures from the financial authorities of the three western provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. When we consider the taxes in the higher brackets of the federal and provincial governments, what do we find? We find that in British Columbia the combined provincial and federal taxes of a man with a taxable income of half &

The Address-Mr. Esling
million dollars-and there must be such men, because the government makes explicit provision for them-left that man only $4,000. In Alberta the combined taxes amount to $3,000 more than his half million income, the result being that he owes somebody $3,000. Coming to Saskatchewan we find a little more leniency; the man in question would be left $14,000. But it must be remembered that he has still to pay his defence tax. Then, in addition, such people must have their city residences, and must pay municipal taxes. They must pay for the upkeep of their homes, and we look to such people for generous contributions to patriotic and war service funds, and for the purchase of war bonds.
There is only one thing to be done: The minister must use his persuasive powers on the provinces to cut down their expenditures during the war. What may happen? It could easily happen that a man in this high bracket -and those in lower brackets are bearing the heavy burden proportionately-would say, "Well, if I have to pay out my income in taxation I might as well sell my securities, and I would not then have to pay any tax." Such a thing could happen, and when it does the government will have to take emphatic steps in some direction.
I should like to return to the observations of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) respecting the western provinces of Alberta and British Columbia, which are to be placed under the Pacific command. It is a matter of regret that the headquarters are not to be established on the mainland instead of on the island. The location indicated involves additional expense, and the delay which will be caused by the necessity of travelling ninety miles by water each way. The distance to travel would be greater than that required were the headquarters in Vancouver, for instance. The people in southeastern British Columbia feel that perhaps their distance from headquarters has been responsible for the districts of Kootenay West and Kootenay East being overlooked. Evidently this prompted the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. MacKinnon) to make emphatic representations to the minister and to the departmental officials in connection with the apparent lack of interest in that portion of the province.
These two districts cover considerable territory, because they stretch to the Alberta boundary. We feel that had headquarters been located in Calgary rather than on the island, the attention to the needs of the section would perhaps have been more generous. As the hon. member for Kootenay East showed to the minister and his officials,
during the last war these districts gave to the dominion the 54th battalion and the 225th battalion, while in this war four batteries have been raised and all removed to points quite distant for training. This district has also given a number of husky stalwart loggers for the forestry battalion but we have not a single unit in the district. The people have given of the best of their manhood and they feel that the district is neglected.
There are a number of voluntary defence corps throughout the district which have been sponsored by branches of the legion. These units are made up of from 200 to 250 men and are located in Trail, Nelson and Rossland. The men turn out two hours a night for three and four nights a week and are under the direction of officers who served in the last war. They are forced to use wooden guns which are baited with a bit of lead, but they go through with their drills nevertheless. They are the finest specimens of young manhood that could be found anywhere. Many of them are keen to get into a permanent unit, but when they write down here they are simply told that there is no provision for such a unit because no equipment is available. They do not ask for equipment; they are perfectly willing to continue just as they are. But they do want a little recognition from this government. They do not ask for uniforms, they do not ask for rifles, but they are not satisfied when there is no one to whom they can report. They are getting no credit for their efforts and they see no future in what they do. I am going to appeal to the minister from British Columbia (Mr. Mackenzie), the gentleman who represents that province in the cabinet. He is supposed to place his stamp of approval or disapproval upon anything relating to the province, so I make a personal appeal to him to use -his good offices with the different departments to see if something cannot be done toward establishing a permanent infantry unit in Kootenay East and Kootenay West.
I come now to the Minister of Finance. He is the motive power behind this war effort. Without his energy, without his ingenuity in raising funds, the rest of the departments would not be able to function. Just in passing I would refer to the importunities which he and the rest of the government -have made over the radio to the children of this dominion to save their pennies for the purchase of war stamps and war certificates. Our country must have been deeply impressed last evening when it was announSed over the radio that the government-I suppose we might say that this is a contribution to the war effort-was going to do away with the printing of Christmas cards for the ministers. Is not that a
The Address-Mr. Esling

magnificent gesture? I find that there are six ministers who have been in the habit of having their Christmas -cards printed at the printing bureau at the expense of the country.


Mr. REID:: They are not all Scottish either.


William Kemble Esling: We have heard pleas for economy, we have 'heard requests that everyone should get behind our national war effort, but I intend .to run the danger of being considered a nuisance by attempting to show the minister and the government how they are permitting legalized pillaging of the people of the Dominion of Canada, and how the government itself is contributing money as well as legal sanction toward this end. I intend to appeal first to the Secretary of State (Mr. Casgrain), then to the Prime Minister (Mr.* Mackenzie King), and then to the Minister of Finance, because each of them has had a word to say in this matter. I am going to refer once more to the Canadian Performing Right Society. Hon. members may laugh if they want to, but I intend to give the ministers certain facts which are of interest to the taxpayers of Canada.
What is the Canadian Performing Right Society? It is a subsidiary of the picture producers and another similar society in the United States. Previously it was connected with various associations on the continent of Europe, but most of those have passed into history. This society has nothing to do with literary copyright; it deals only with musical copyright. The author or composer of a piece of music should receive every dollar to which he is entitled, but this society should be treated the same as any individual. An individual who composes a piece of music must pay $3 for a copyright. In this case the society is on a par with the individual, because it must pay the same fee. However, when an individual registers an assignment of a copyright, he pays $1 whereas this society pays nothing.
When the society started in business in Canada it was necessary to have certain assets, and the parent society in the United States assigned to the Canadian society 2,500,000 pieces of music. No one in this government or in any other government knew whether the United States society was the owner of that music. I am not saying that the blame should be placed on this side or the other side; I simply say that there is inequality of treatment in connection with -this tremendous number of assignments. *The government was given to understand that this action was necessary in order to protect the Canadian composers of music, and an arrangement was made whereby the society was permitted simply to

fill out a card stating that this or that was their piece of music and file it with the commissioner of copyrights. There is no indication whatsoever of ownership, and I say that the Canadian Performing Right Society should be made to show, before it is permitted to collect one dollar of licence fees, that it owns the music for which it collects its royalty. There is nothing unreasonable about that.
Then take the matter of our contributions. The broadcasting stations pay to this society about $100,000 per year. Those contributions are made in the aggregate by all broadcasting stations. We have to thank the late Secretary of State for the appointment of an appeal board. Were it not for that board, which keeps these people within limits, dear knows what the public would be paying to-day. Last year they attempted to collect from the broadcasting stations $188,000, but the appeal board limited them to $98,000. This year they are trying to collect $210,000, and we have to wait for the appeal board to review the matter.
Also, these tariffs of fees are printed at government expense in the Canada Gazette. If you want to read something thrilling, read that tariff published by the Canadian Performing Right Society. Why should the taxpayers pay for the publication of their tariffs of fees which are intended to be charged and are allowed by the appeal board, any more than the government should print free of charge in the Canada Gazette telephone or telegraph or any other tolls?


Thomas Reid: It is just a racket.


William Kemble Esling: It is a legalized racket. The time has come when the government should take a hand in the matter. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation do not seem to worry about it. They have paid to this society $136,000 in the last five years. I suppose that this coming year they will pay them in the neighbourhood of $41,000. But we come back with the statement, "Well, we are obligated; we are signatories of the Berne convention." Does anyone in this house suppose that European countries, all of which are signatories to the Berne convention, are going to send any money to authors or composers in England or in Canada? As a matter of fact there are no Canadian members of this society.
I know that this is a dry subject, but I wish the government would appoint two or three men to go into it and show how the people of Canada are being imposed upon, how the public exchequer is being drawn upon, and how the people are victimized in the collection of these fees under threat of legal proceedings. It is time something was

The Address-Mr. Esling
done. I say, pay them every cent which belongs to them, in respect to music to which they can prove ownership, and beyond that let us call a halt. Let us withdraw from the Berne convention, at least until the world gets on an even keel: we can then start anew and find out if there is any merit in the Canadian Performing Right Society; if so, the government will countenance the authority which it enjoys, under a dominion charter, to collect these fees.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Is it not a fact that many of the writers of poems and songs for which fees are collected have been dead for generations?


William Kemble Esling: That is the very reason, Mr. Speaker, I say that this society should be required to stand on the same footing as an individual. What has it done? Go back for ten years. Does this indicate any sign of a legitimate operation, that in ten years it has actually paid for the registration of eight copyrights with the commission, and it has paid one dollar each for the registration of twenty-eight assignments? Those are its only evidences of ownership. As I say, it merelj' files a card, but no evidence of ownership, and it puts on the bottom, " Canadian Performing Right Society." I contend that they should pay for every piece of music for which they propose to collect from now on and for which they have collected in the past.
The Prime Minister, in referring to the rules of the house, also commented on the opposition. He suggested that conditions might arise whereby there would be more groups on this side of the house than there are at present, and that the leader of each of these groups would claim precedence in the conduct of the proceedings. It is inequality in the administration of justice and general discontent which are responsible for groups on the opposition side.
I have just referred to one matter of inequality, and I am now coming to another, the matter of the Doukhobors. You cannot carry on a democratic government with one law for one section of the people and another law for others. You must have uniformity. First of all let me say that the Doukhobors who live in Saskatchewan are quite different from those who live in British Columbia. Those in Saskatchewan are largely concerned with the cultivation of the soil. They take their part in public life. They belong to municipal councils, and they aspire to various public offices. The Doukhobors in British Columbia are a people totally apart from Canadians. They take no part in anything, they do not obey the laws, they have been a source of more trouble to this dominion
than any other nationality within its borders. They have committed incendiarism, they have bombed buildings and made all sorts of trouble, and the truth is that neither this government nor the provincial government is capable of coping with them. This government is afraid. The provincial government is afraid. Why? They are afraid of the consequences; they fear an uprising.
At the time of the national registration, through the ingenuity and initiative of the registrar, the majority of these Doukhobors were registered. But they were given to understand that they would not have to participate in warfare.	,


George Hugh Castleden: I wonder if the hon. member would permit a question. Does he think that we as Canadians have made a real study to try to understand these people?


William Kemble Esling: That is a reasonable question. But does the hon. gentleman not think that forty-two years is a sufficient time in which to make that study?


George Hugh Castleden: Yes. Has it been made; that is the question?


Thomas Reid: No one can understand them.


William Kemble Esling: I presented to the government and to its officials a petition from the Canadian residents in the Slocan district of West Kootenay where these Doukhobors are largely located. A group of them have not registered. Of about 5,000 living there, more than 4,000 have registered. But British-born Canadians are protesting against the fact that they must send their boys overseas, perhaps never to return; they must send their boys to training camps, while these husky Doukhobor boys simply remain in the fields carrying on as usual, or getting into jobs which are vacated by those who have gone overseas. Our people ask, is there any justice? Is there to be one law for one person and another law for another? I ask the government to take action in this matter.
What happens in British Columbia? Doukhobors have lost their lands by a court order giving title on foreclosure of mortgages to two companies. The provincial government was afraid to take any steps, fearing that there might be more fires and bombing. I do not blame them particularly, because I understand the circumstances. However, the provincial government had to do something, and what did it do? It passed a law at the last session of the legislature providing half a million dollars to reimburse the two mortgagees, and then they proposed to deal with the Doukhobors individually. Does anybody come to the assistance of a Canadian
4(58

The Address-Mr. Esling
farmer when his mortgage comes due and he is in danger of being evicted from his land if he does not make payment? Not much. But these Doukhobors, who do not conform to the law at all, are a law unto themselves. They are above and beyond all Canadian law.
*Let me pass now to the Minister of Finance under whose jurisdiction the Canadian Farm Loan Board comes, and I turn to him having in mind the consideration that is shown to the Doukhobors. What consideration is being shown by the Canadian Farm Loan Board to a soldier to whom I shall now refer? There is in my district a soldier who served fivq years in the last war. He has a wife and five children. On December 1, 1939, he was indebted to the Canadian Farm Loan Board in the sum of S44.21. He received a notice from the board telling him that if he did not pay this S44.21 on December 1-a few days from now-the board will commence foreclosure proceedings. Is there any equality before the law when we look after Doukhobors who are not in harmony at all with our system of living, and when a soldier settler with a wife and five children-a soldier, mind you, who has kept up his payments regularly for the past ten years and has paid his taxes and his insurance, and everything that he owes-is threatened by the Canadian Farm Loan Board under this government that if he does not pay $44.21 by Monday next the board will commence foreclosure proceedings? I leave that to the Minister of Finance, and I ask him to assure this house and this returned soldier that he will see that the farm loan board does not take this summary action that is threatened.


Mr. BRUCE McNEVIN (Victoria, Ont.):: May I digress first to congratulate the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Esling), who has just preceded me, upon his remarkable vitality and alertness of mind.
My next thought is to extend my congratulations to the mover (Mr. Claxton) and to the seconder (Mr. Jutras) of the address. The mover succeeded in this House of Commons as representative of the constituency of St. Lawrenee-St. George a gentleman who had had a long and honourable career in public life, ft is true that I did not at all times agree with the policies which he supported; he represented a different party, but I do not think I could pay a finer compliment to the mover of the address than to say that he offers every promise of equalling if not surpassing the distinguished career of his predecessor.
I also wish to congratulate heartily the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Jutras) upon his notable contribution to the debate. His

remarks I believe will be an inspiration to the people of his native province and indeed to those far beyond its confines.
Before entering into a general discussion of the questions in which I am particularly interested I should like first to make my position abundantly clear on two questions which have arisen in this debate.
First I am prepared to support any suggestion, no matter from what section or group in this House of Commons it may come, which in my opinion will assist our war effort.
Secondly, while we have many important domestic problems facing the people of Canada, they must at all times be considered secondary' in importance to the prosecution of the war.
It is my intention to support the main motion now before the house, thereby endorsing the government's policy of a total war effort limited only by the productive capacity of our farms and our factories, and expending in the cause of victory all our natural resources, and utilizing the strength and valour and forbearance of our people of all classes in support of our armed forces.
There is one event which has occurred within recent months which to my mind is outstanding. I have in mind the appointment of a joint committee on defence upon which both Canada and the United States have representation. In the period covering a number of years leading up to this accomplishment, it is true that very many Canadians prominent in the public life of the country made substantial contributions in connection with this matter, but I am sure that the contribution of the present Prime Minister of Canada (Mr. Mackenzie King) remains paramount above all others. To my mind it marks him as the greatest Canadian not only in his time and generation but since confederation. Across the line, it is true, many prominent citizens also made a worthwhile contribution to bring to full fruition thi^ commendable accord, but I am sure we are all agreed that none of these contributions compares with that of the present incumbent of the White House, President Franklin D. Roosevelt. To put it modestly,
I believe it marks him as the greatest American since the days of Abraham Lincoln.
I would like now to review briefly our preparedness for war. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) the other day gave to the house figures indicating that as of the last of October there were in the Canadian army a little over 300,000' soldiers. I am not surprised to hear that a number of these soldiers are impatient because of apparent inactivity in what might be described as actual warfare; but we -must bide our time, strengthen these various units, intensify the

The Address-Mr. McNevin
training and keep up to date with every possible type of equipment in order to be fully prepared for whatever eventuality may arise in the dominion or in any other sphere of the conflict.
I believe that the numbers and the condition of these troops give the Canadian people a feeling of security and indeed of pride when we remember that approximately 50,000 of the men are across the water in a number of fields of activity, standing beside the British soldiers and other empire soldiers and other troops, including the valiant Greeks. I am quite sure that the extent of these forces has not passed the notice of the dictators who are oppressing innocent and helpless peoples.
In connection with our air force we have a personnel of 36,071. When we consider the surface development of aerodromes, the various types of construction, the almost unlimited amount of equipment necessary to train, equip and service this force, as well as the other obligations in .connection with the empire training plan, it is indeed a phenomenal development.
I might refer also to our naval strength- 1,620 officers and 11,653 men, manning 155 ships. These officers and men have already clothed themselves with glory, as our British sailors have done for hundreds of years, maintaining for the motherland, and still holding to-day, the mastery of the seas.
The point I wish to bring out in connection with a summing up of the strength of the Canadian forces is that we have a total of 349,344 men under arms. In the last war, after four years and a few months, at the conclusion of hostilities we had sent into actual combat 346,531 or approximately 3,000 soldiers less, taking all classes of the forces, than we have now combined in these three branches of our defence forces.
When we consider this question from the standpoint of equipment, I do not think I could give a better example than a personal reference, if the house will pardon me. Early in the month of October, 1938, I entered the place of business of a gunsmith in one of the large cities of Canada. I asked him to show me some rifles, and he handed me a 30-30 Winchester, manufactured in the United States. After looking it over and discussing it with him I said, "Have you a Canadian rifle?" He said, "Oh no, we have never made any rifles in Canada except Ross rifles and thev were not satisfactory". I asked him. "What about a -32?" He said, "No." I asked him what about a -22, and he replied, "I would not be sure; we may manufacture a complete -22 in Canada but some of the parts may come from the United States or elsewhere". Suppose however we grant that a [DOT]22 rifle was completely manufactured in Canada. Remember that this was in October, 1938. Now, when you consider the machine guns, naval guns, anti-aircraft guns and war equipment that are now being produced in Canada, or are in process of production, can it be definitely proved that the war record of this government has been desultory or ineffective? I say not.
I want to pass to one of our most important domestic problems. I refer to the increasing inequality between farm income and farm expenses. According to a table issued by the bureau of statistics the index of the cost of living on the farm in Ontario from spring until fall of 1940 increased from 87-2 to 89-2. In that same period the index of wholesale prices of farm products fell from 72-1 to 62-7. Of course there is a seasonal decrease which has some influence on those figures, and a certain amount of that decrease will be recovered. Nevertheless it shows the trend, and it illustrates the difficult position of the agricultural industry. I am fully aware that due to war conditions the markets for certain lines of farm products have been substantially curtailed. It is also true that there has been a tremendous expansion of demand for war equipment and manufactured goods related to the war effort which has given a great impetus to the manufacturing industry, and these are factors contributing to this situation.
The agricultural industry might be subdivided into two or more classes. We have for example the sugar beet producers, the tobacco producers, the honey producers and the fruit and vegetable producers; these might be called specialized types of production. Due to climatic or other considerations the production of these commodities is more or less restricted. Then we have the general lines of production, such as wheat, cattle, dairy products and pork products. It is my intention to confine my present remarks to the latter group.
In former discussions in this house I have made my position upon the wheat question abundantly clear, and I have no reason to change my attitude on that important question. I have a great deal of sympathy for the operator of a small or moderate-sized farm in western Canada, whether he is engaged in mixed farming or grain farming or a combination of both. I believe his problems are very much the same as those of the farmer in eastern Canada. What I have strongly objected to is the payment of wheat bonuses without limitation. I still adhere to that objection. It is not my intention for the
The Address-Mr. McNevin

moment to press the point further except to refer to the suggestion made in the course of this debate by the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Ross), who suggested the payment of a straight $5 an acre bonus for all summer fallow in western Canada. Would that mean that there would be no difference in the payment in a year when they had a bumper crop in western Canada and a year when they had a crop failure? Would it mean that a man with a thousand acres of fallow would receive ten times as much as a man with a hundred acres of fallow? I cannot see it in any other light. It embodies the principle that to him who has much, much is given; to him who has little, little is given, and to him who has nothing at all, nothing is given.
I cannot subscribe to such a policy.
Referring to the cattle industry, it is in a comparatively fortunate position. For this I believe that the present administration is entitled to a good deal of credit, because the Canada-United States trade agreement has been of great benefit to the cattle producers of Canada. I am speaking of beef cattle production.
I do not believe there is any line of agricultural production that is so exacting in its demand on the operator as dairy farming. For the purpose of my argument I am going to divide dairy farming into four classifications: first, producers of whole milk for urban consumption; second, producers of whole milk for the manufacture of concentrated milk and milk powder; third, production of cheese, and fourth, production of butter.
So far as the producers of whole milk for city trade are concerned, in many sections they are in a slightly better position than the general run of milk producers. The milk powder and concentrated milk industry of * course pays a smaller price but takes the entire supply, and that type of production also enjoys some advantages.
Coming then to cheese, as it has been said that steel is the barometer in the metal trades, so I think cheese may be called the barometer in the dairying industry in Canada; because over long periods of time the price of cheese has a direct bearing on the general price level of all dairy products.
One question that is much in the public eye just now is the price of butter. From January 1, 1939, to October 1 of the same year, Canada produced 240,070,881 pounds of butter.


Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):: Could the hon. member state how much vegetable oil was imported in the same year?


Thomas Bruce McNevin: I believe those figures are already on the record; therefore it will not be necessary to repeat them.
Taking the next period in 1940 we find there was produced in the same months 237,012,992 pounds, which is a decrease of 3,057,889 pounds. Going back over the distribution in that same period in 1940, namely from January 1 to September 30, we find there was an increase in the distribution of 'butter over the same period in 1939 of more than 9,531,000 pounds. So that we have there a difference of over 12,000,000 pounds, and that factor has been responsible for the increase in the price of this commodity.
I would be the first to seek to curtail any movement whereby we might permit the speculator to make substantial or large profits out of any food product. However, in connection with this matter I believe we must be most careful to see that any action taken does not tend to deprive the butter producer of Canada of a reasonable or substantial price, in the light of all the circumstances affecting the situation. Because, Mr. Speaker, for the last ten years the butter producers of Canada have received a grossly inadequate price for this commodity. Therefore I would caution against undue interference along the lines suggested.
If we take one hundred pounds of milk it will produce approximately twice as many pounds of cheese as pounds of butter. So that if we take the price of cheese at seaboard, or at Montreal, as being 14-4, we find that that gives approximately 28-8 for butter fat, or for butter. However, it must be remembered that that is the summer price, when production costs are lower. It costs much more to produce butter fat in the winter time, and I do not think that 35 cents, or perhaps the odd cent more, could be considered a high or exorbitant price for butter. What I do say is that in the spring, summer and fall months it would not be in the best interests of all concerned greatly to increase the production of butter or to decrease the production of cheese, because we have an unlimited export market for' cheese, and a non-existent export market for butter.
There is another point which has some bearing on this matter. The by-product in the production of butter fat, namely skim milk, is worth more than the by-product from the production of cheese, namely, whey. This brings me to a further question, namely, that of hog prices, and the bacon agreement between the Canadian government and the

The Address-Mr. McNevin
food board in Great Britain. I am prepared to say that I believe this lower price offers but a small opportunity for any profit for the hog producer. However, if that is the top price the British food board is prepared to pay-and we have great sympathy for Great Britain and her financial position- then to my mind the matter is settled so far as that part of it is concerned.
I have before me a table which sets out the prices prevailing under the former agreement and those set out under the new agreement. I shall deal with only one part of these figures, and will ask the indulgence of the house to have the complete table placed on the record.
It must be understood that the British food purchasing board paid a flat price at the port for these pork products, and that these schedules of prices according to grades were worked out by the bacon board, upon which producers, packers and the government had representation. However, turning to the class of grade A-l, covering Wiltshire sides of 55 pounds to 65 pounds, we find that under the old agreement the price was $17.70. It must be remembered, however, that in thr' price there had to be provision for storage charges. That was the price which prevailed from January 1 until May, at which time it was reduced to $17.20, and then again on July 22 it was increased back to $17.70. I shall not detain the house by reading further figures but will turn now to the new prices. In addition, in connection with payrrtents on the former basis, it must be remembered that 72 cents per hundred pounds was deducted and placed in a fund. I shall deal with that later in my observations.
Taking the same classification of 55 to 65 pounds, under the new agreement we find that the price for the A-l grade is $16.10, or approximately $1.60 less.
The tables in detail, showing the comparative prices to which I referred, are as follows:
Wiltshire Price List Effective on Current Product Allotted for Cure on and after July 22, 1940
45-55	55-65	65-70	70-80pounds	pounds	pounds	poundsA-l ....	... $17.50	$17.70	$17.30	$16.30A-2 ....	... 17.10	17.30	16.90	15.90A-3 ....	... 16.70	16.90	16.50	15.50B-l ...	... 17.10	17.30	16.90	15.90B-2 ...	... 16.30	16.50	16.10	15.10B-3 ...	... 15.50	15.70	15.30	14.30
Price List for Current Export Cuts Effective on Product Allotted for Cure on and after July 22, 1940
Cumberlands	
Hams 12/18	
Hams 18/20	
Hams 20/22	
Hams, Long Cut /IS	
Hams, Long Cut 18/20	
Gammons 12/18	
Gammons 18/20	
Middles A-l/36	
Middles A-2/36	
Middles A-3/36	
Rib backs A-l and A-2 10/16
Rib baeks A-3 10/16	
Rib backs A-l and A-2 16/18
Rib backs A-3 16/18	
Square fores 12/18	
Square fores 18/20	
Square fores 20/25

Price List for Wiltshire Sides Effective on Product put into Cure on and after November 18, 1940
45-55	55-65	65-70	70-80pounds	pounds	pounds	poundsA-l ..	.... $15.90	$16.10	$15.70	$14.70A-2 ..	.... 15.50	15.70	15.30	14.30A-3 ..	
15.10	15.30	14.90	13.90B-l ..	.... 15.15	15.35	14.95	13.95B-2 ..	.... 14.55	14.75	14.35	13.35B-3 ..	
13.95	14.15	13.75	12.75Price	List for Export Cuts Effective on	Product put into Cure November 18,	on and ; 1940	afterHams 10/18	Hams 18/20	Gammons 10/18	Gammons 18/20	Middles A-l 22/36	Middles A-2 22/36	Middles A-3 22/36	
Rib Backs A-l and A-2 10/16
Rib Backs A-3 10/16	
Rib Backs A-l and A-2 16/18
Rib Backs A-3 16/18	
Square fores 12/18	
Square fores 18/20

I should like now to deal briefly with deliveries of hogs for the past two months. The following figures will show total deliveries in Canada of graded hogs:
Date	Number
Week of-	of hogs
October 10	 113,450
October 17	 119,567
October 24	 135,912
October 31	 157,260
November 7	  151,668
November 14	 155,592
November 21	  152,443
I place those figures on the record to show the substantial increase in deliveries over that period of time.
During the passing of estimates of the Department of Agriculture in the last session, and again in this debate, there has been discussion regarding the disbursement of the
The Address-Mr. McNevin

fund set up by this deduction of 72 cents. During those weeks of heavy deliveries, approximately a million dollars of that fund was paid out to maintain higher prices than would otherwise have prevailed. It is usually admitted that farmers market hogs at least twice yearly. If a farmer delivered hogs in the early part of the season, the deduction would apply. If hogs were delivered in the period referred to, he would benefit from the fund.
I will not attempt to forecast what the general situation will be during the coming year, but it might be of interest to hon. members to know that from January 1, 1940, when the bacon board commenced operations, to the end of the first bacon contract, the average price at Toronto for live hogs was $8.76. During the same period the average price for hogs purchased by thirteen packers in Ontario was $11.69 dressed weight, or $8.76 live weight. During the week of November 23 the price of hogs at Toronto was $10.75 dressed weight and $8.10 live weight. This is the first week of operations under the new agreement. Certain other factors enter into this price. There is no deduction for administrative charges and the bacon board is absorbing the cost of storage, and so forth. These things would have to be balanced against the reduction in price. While I would not want to make any prediction as to what will happen, it looks as though the price of hogs during next year will average somewhere in the vicinity of eight cents. This prediction may be too high; I am not prepared to say.
There are a couple of additional items which I desire to discuss. During the course of this debate concern has been expressed as to the possibility of our democratic institutions falling into decay on account of the application of the defence of Canada regulations. There is no member in this chamber more anxious than I to protect and preserve-even widen the scope if possible-of our democratic institutions and hand them down intact to future generations. If there seems to be difficulty in a person interned under these regulations securing a fair trial within a reasonable length of time, then provision should be made to give such person that trial.
I should like to make this further suggestion. If we look back into British history' to the time of Cromwell, we shall find that some of the then limited freedom in the British empire was curtailed, but still that period saw a growth and enlargement of the very system under which we now live. As far as I am concerned, if free speech means the right to criticize the war effort and the government, to offer constructive suggestions 
and so forth, I am all for it; but if that privilege is going to be used to undermine the morale of our people and to interfere with the successful prosecution of the war, then I sayr that to that extent we shall have to see that it is curtailed. If freedom of the press means criticism of the government and its war effort, violent if you like, and the urging of improvements in connection with our forces or other parts of our war effort, then I am all for it; but if it means the printing of insidious propaganda to interfere with that effort and to break down the morale of our people, then the best thing to do is to suggest to these people that- they had better get into the Red Cross and do something to help it along. If they cannot be persuaded to do that, then they will have to be dealt with by some other means.
In conclusion, I should like to return for a moment to the conflict in which we are engaged and make one observation. The dictators are fighting a war of conquest and aggression while our forces are fighting a battle to preserve their national existence, which means their homes and their firesides, their wives and their families. We are putting everything we have into the conflict. Our ultimate goal is victory. The road may be long and rough and the end at times obscure, but we approach it with the attitude of mind that victory can and will be won.


Mr. L. E. CARDIFF (Huron North):: Mr. Speaker, I do not think anyone doubts the sincerity of the remarks which have been made by most hon. members on both sides of the house in connection with Canada's war effort, and I hope that what I say this afternoon will be garnished with the same sincerity of purpose. My only reason for rising in my' place is to offer some suggestions that may be acceptable to the government in the carrying on of our war effort. As a preface to my remarks, let me state that what I have to say is based on practical knowledge gained from a lifetime in agriculture.
In the county of Huron we have about
10,000	farms, and in addition we have a number of manufacturing establishments, an important lake harbour, a number of grain elevators and flour mills, and some of the best salt wells in Canada. We have some of the finest roads and highways in Ontario. Yet the county is free from debt and has no outstanding debentures. Few other counties in Canada can boast of such good results from a pay-as-you-go policy. I take a great deal of pride in the record of my county, because I can claim at least some credit for its present financial position.
I believe every hon. member should voice his opinion with regard to our war effort. In

The Address-Mr. Cardiff
doing so, perhaps the suggestions I offer for the improvement of this effort may be acceptable to the government. Having sat through one whole session and having come into the second I have arrived at the conclusion that lawyers and doctors and professional men do not possess all the brains there are in this fair land of ours. I have heard in the last few days many inspiring addresses delivered by private members on the government side, and I venture to say there are a great many more who, given the opportunity, would offer helpful and inspiring thoughts that could well be made use of in this hour of need.
The rural people realize that the present crisis calls for more sacrifice and effort; they are ready and anxious to do all in their power to forward victory. It is still too obvious that the allied governments undertook to fight this war as an economic war, and with money, while the enemy used guns and ammunition. Hitler knows no law other than brute force and destruction. Tanks, not sterling; machine guns, not foreign exchange; sabotage, not dollars, is his method. Surely we are living in a land of make-believe and sleight-of-hand from some government members when they pretend to assume in this dark hour that trade will move through normal channels and that customary surpluses in several lines of our Canadian production will find a market, thus permitting production to command fair and reasonable prices. Farmers have divorced themselves from the profit motive, and are actuated only by a determined desire to serve in the front ranks of production. Farming to-day is a business, and just as in other industries, farmers must have sufficient income to cover overhead, defray expenses, and maintain the institution.
During this war, Canadian exports will largely be confined to Great Britain, the United States and South America. The demand for shipping facilities will restrict our exports to Great Britain to a minimum. We do know from experience, however, that if this conflict proceeds, all our production of foodstuffs will be in demand, but in the meantime our warehouses are full. At present the farmers have to assume the burden of these surpluses, and carry their share of wartime taxation. At this time of emergency I contend, Mr. Speaker, that these are problems that should be faced by our federal government. Non-perishable surpluses such as wheat, beans, pork, are in my opinion as good as gold in war time. There is nothing that will put heart in a man like a full stomach, and there is nothing that will weaken the morale of any nation like starvation. We all know that armies travel on
their stomachs, and so I say again, pile up surpluses of non-perishable goods and keep the people working, make the currency circulate, and back it up with gold and with the storage of non-perishable goods. Nonperishable products are as good as gold in war time, and better. Beat the enemy at his own game. Only those who accept defeat are defeated. We must never be defeated.
I often wonder just what the reaction would be in Canada if we were subjected to the conditions that exist in England. I feel sure we could take it. I hope not but we may have to take it. Just ponder that in your mind.
I submit, Mr. Speaker, now that we are giving assistance to industry for the manufacture of necessary war materials, that immediate consideration should be given to agriculture, in order that we may achieve full production, under proper guidance and with the responsibility on the government for such surpluses as may exist from time to time. Such a plan can work for agriculture in the same manner as for other industries if practical men are chosen to frame and administer the necessary legislation. Our agricultural resources, properly organized, can and will play a vital part in this nation's war effort. We as farmers wish to serve and sacrifice equally with all other people of this dominion, but we ask that politics be thrown aside and that when the government establishes committees for the administration of agricultural problems their personnel include practical farmers, men who will know whether the proposed policies and programmes are feasible. Do not forget that when you are helping agriculture you are helping every man, woman and child in Canada.
First, in regard to agriculture we need a clean-cut federal government farm programme as to what products are needed during war time. In other words, take the farmer into the department's confidence and let him know the facts so that production can be maintained on an even keel.
Second, the majority of the farmers are dissatisfied with the present set-up in regard to bacon. There has not been, nor is there now, any control over the production of bacon. That has resulted in over-expansion and has disarranged marketing. Some kind of bacon production code is needed for the farmers, and then full returns from the packers of the old country price.
Third, we need a more effective and cheaper method of selling farm machinery priced in relation to farm production.
Fourth, we should have federal supervision over health standards of animals sold at community sales. Many cattle and hog diseases
The Address-Mr. Cardiff

are being spread in healthy communities by outside animals brought in without inspection and sold in healthy areas.
Fifth, we must have an increased use for army purposes of Canadian apples and honey, pork and beans.
. Sixth, there is the old story regarding domination of live stock marketing by a group of powerful packing house plants in Toronto, resulting in the farmers having little or no say in the marketing price of their animals. The sale of cattle and hogs direct to plants each week satisfies a large proportion of the packers' needs, which means that they are not keen to bid on lots in the union stockyards, which is supposed to be a competitive market. Marketing plants in their present setup and yearly profits need government investigation.
Seventh, I would ask the minister why Ontario was not represented on the Canadian bacon board when Ontario produces one-half or more of the total production of hogs in Canada. Further. I would ask why the bacon producers of Canada were penalized by the government through negotiations with the United States which allowed large quantities of United States bacon to come in here to offset the fur trade of Canada. I do not think that was fair to agriculture.
Coming from a rural district, might I say that our people are willing to make any sacrifice within their power to preserve the institutions of democracy and to bear any burden of taxation imposed by the government just as long as that government by its actions and through its policies demonstrates to the people of Canada that the moneys so collected are not being wasted on people and profits as a reward for their party adherence. I could cite a few cases, but I will just warn the government that it will be they who will have to answer for some of the unnecessary appointments that they are making.
We have heard many complaints from farmer members of this house and, I am glad to say, lately from some hon. members who are not farmers, as to the way the government is allowing farmers to be imposed upon. We never did get a fair deal from any government, least of all from this one, but no one has ventured to tell the reason. To my mind the reason is a simple one. Campaign funds are much more conveniently collected in thousands of dollars than in smaller amounts, with the result that the big interests, paying larger amounts in campaign funds, look to the government for special assistance and get it. I should like to direct 
a few questions on this point to the government. I do not know the answers, but I should like to know. Did the sugar interests subscribe to their funds ? Did the vegetable oil interests subscribe? Did the bacon interests subscribe? I could name many more. Such contributors get consideration, in many cases against the judgment of those who are in control. But those in control have no alternative; they are bought out, body and soul, before they ever start to function. I contend, Mr. Speaker, that this practice places governments in a position where they just have to do certain things, whether they want to or not. It is a system detrimental not only to the farmers of this country, but to the small industrialists who try in vain to compete and make a living.
I do feel that we as members of parliament should protest against the practice of importing into this country fruit and vegetables in ever-increasing volume, notwithstanding the restricted exportation from Canada to the United Kingdom. The war has forced the United Kingdom to restrict imports of tobacco and to stop further purchasing of Canadian canned fruits, vegetables and soups. Why should we not act in a similar way to protect our farmers? We shall be forced to promote a larger consumption at home to take care of the surplus created through the restriction of exports. I might go on to give the figures showing the increased imports from the United States, but I do not think this is necessary, because the figures have been submitted to the government; they already have the information. I wish only to place myself on record as registering my protest on behalf of the vegetable and fruit growers of Canada.
At this late hour I can only reiterate what a great many other hon. members have asked, that free transportation be granted our enlisted men who are on official leave for the last time, and I believe it would not be asking too much to recommend free transportation for Christmas leave as well. Surely our soldiers deserve this consideration. I would like to impress upon the minister the importance of this request.
The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), during his address on November 14, as reported at pages 10S and 109 of Hansard, referring to unemployment, stated that there was unemployment for practically all the defeated candidates of the opposition side of the house. May I remind the hon. gentleman that such was not the case so far as the defeated members on the government side were concerned. We find some of them being placed in very unnecessary jobs at large salaries. Why should so much money be spent in advertising the war effort of this

The Address-Mr. Cardiff
government? If their efforts were one hundred per cent genuine, it would not require government heelers to advertise its programme. God forbid that we should have government heelers to contend with, on top of our all too heavy war responsibility.
We appreciate the efforts of the minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. MacKinnon) in this government. From a personal standpoint he has, perhaps, done all that any one individual could do; I believe he is very sincere, but it is not enough. What we as agriculturists need is as much protection as other industries get, and surely we deserve it. The Prime Minister in his address talked about steel. True, "we need steel", we cannot get along without it, but is there any hon. member who would put forth the argument that steel is more important than food in winning the war? Long after the need for steel has declined, food will be in constant demand.
There is another line of thought which I wish to develop at this time. It has to do with our war effort so far as the distribution of grain, coal and gasoline is concerned, which is a vital matter, to my mind, in war time. We have a condition in Goderich harbour that I would like to draw to the attention of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Cardin), in regard to the surgings of vessels in the harbour under stress of wind and disturbance.
Last winter there were fifteen Canadian grain carriers wintering in the harbour. I have a record stating the surgings of these vessels which were under observation for two days when a northwest and west wind was blowing strong. There were other vessels lying loaded at the Western Canada Flour Mills wharf which are not included in this survey. Several storms occurred while these boats were in process of laying up for the winter. The first was a very strong gale starting in the southwest and shifting to northwest and north.
On December 7 and 8, when several vessels sustained broken cable moorings, bits and shocks, and otherwise bumped themselves along the wharves, there was no knowledge of any of the other vessels having come in contact with the harbour bottom. Again, on December 21 and 22, a northwest and westerly gale produced a great surge in the harbour with similar damaging results to steamship moorings. These storms, while altering from normal to intense velocity, did not seem to be worse than those experienced in previous years, but the harbour surging was apparently greater, which could only be attributable to a great flow of water to the entrance from the breakwater to the pier mouth, and thence to the inner harbour. It may be reasonable to
assume that, with the deepening of the entry channel to approximately 26 feet, much greater volume of seas will roll through, especially during westerly and southwesterly gales, and this flow, walled off to a great extent by the shoaling on the north side, accelerates the volume of seas towards the harbour.
It has been suggested that the area behind the northwesterly breakwater be sloped down to permit the surge to roll up and expend itself on this shoaled area rather than be abruptly buffeted below, or the upper portion of seas spilled back into the walled channel. Then, too, we have considered where and to what length could be located an additional or extended break-wall to break up and divert the seas before they reach the entrance to the channel ; and to this end, Captain Robinson, a mariner of much experience in handling large vessels into various ports, has made a sketch which I have here for inspection. I hope that the government will take the necessary steps to have this entrance to Goderich harbour taken care of at the earliest possible day, as we would not like a recurrence of this condition.
The minister must be impressed, I am sure, of the value of Goderich as a national port to the grain trade of Canada in the movement of Canadian western and American grains from the point of origination to the milling, feeding and exporting outlets in Ontario and eastern distributing points. May I briefly show you that the following quantities of grain have passed through our elevators from 1929 to 1939. I do not wish to take the time of the house to read the figures, but I have a copy, and I ask that it may be put on Hansard:
year	Bushels
1929	 8,891,486
2930	  6,388,875
1931	  7,526,388
1932	  4,346,086
ms::::::::::	 6,919,283
I934	  5,985,025
1qo5	   5,805,585
	 4,883,586
1938	 10,673,841
	 10,881,490
To this must be added an approximate
2,500,000	bushels per year which is received by the Western Canada Flour Mills in Goderich. You will notice the years between 1930 and 1937 were lean years; there was not the volume of grain that there was in 1938 and 1939. Additional to grain is the freightage of coal, gasoline coming in, some interior accumulations of products outward bound, all
The Address-Mr. Cardiff

of which is water-moved. tonnage. A careful computation of the revenue to the Canadian railways and Department of National Revenue, shows that the eleven-year period at Goderich produced revenue as follows:
Canadian National Railways______ $4,900,000
Canadian Pacific Railway		4,400,000
Customs revenue-coal and grain passed on last year, 1939, the only record available	 874,279
Total revenue	$10,174,279
Thus you will appreciate that the dependable revenue afforded through our ports warrants requisite attention to developments, maintenance and safeguarding of the facilities which will provide safe and prompt access to Goderich harbour for any fully-loaded steamer under all weather conditions. I trust the minister will give these imperative requirements merited attention.
There are many thousands of Canadian women who, although outside- the public eye, perform vital war duties in their homes, maintaining the health of the rising generation and assisting Canada's internal economy in their daily purchases, devoting their spare time to the corporate work of groups and organizations. I believe we have come to the time when these women's groups will have to be initiated into industry, and in my opinion the sooner the better. It might save considerable confusion if the time ever came when a good many of our industrialists were taken away from their jobs and sent overseas.
I would like to conclude my remarks with an extract from a speech I made during the course of the election campaign, as follows:
Our primary duty as farmers is to the empire. Our brother agriculturists in Great Rntam are desperately fighting for freedom's cause. They have left their fields and farms to be tended by the women of the nation. No ?xtCI i ce ca,n make for them is too great. VVe here hardly realize there is a war, but the time will come when Great Britain and her allies will need the products from our farms and fields. It becomes our duty not to think m terms of profit, gains or barter, but to stand shoulder to shoulder behind the cause and behind our men who are offering their all.
This was spoken several months ago and our people have risen nobly to the emergency. Our county has voted $27,000 for war purposes. They also purchased an airport site for over $10,000 as a county project and have since leased it to the government at a dollar a year. That is all that we have got out of it. It is not like the dollar-a-year men advertised around here in the last few days. Another $10,000 has been -given to the Red Cross Society, and $7,000 has been set aside for patriotic purposes. More can be had if it is needed. Such is the spirit of our people in
[Mr. Cardiff.)
Huron, such is the spirit of -Canada, such is the spirit of the empire; and with God's will wc shall win for democracy.
On motion of Mr. McLarty the debate was adjourned.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask the right hon. gentleman
who is leading the house (Mr. Lapointe) to ask his colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) if he would be good enough to table the bacon agreements, in pursuance of his undertaking of Thursday, November 14-page 101 of Hansard. We think these agreements ought to be tabled before this debate is concluded. While he is about it, will he be good enough to ask his colleague to table last year's bacon agreements, which have never been tabled.


Ernest Lapointe: I shall
be pleased to convey my hon. friend's request to the minister.
On motion of Mr. Lapointe (Quebec East) the house adjourned at 5.48 p.m.
Thursday, November 28, 1940.