1939-04-06

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 71492-166
SO, respecting the Canadian National Railway Company, the Ontario and Quebec Railway Company, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and the Toronto Terminals Railway Company.
Mr. STEWART:: Explain.


Mr. HOWE:: The purpose of this bill is to ratify and confirm three conveyances to the Toronto Terminals Railway Company of lands formerly owned by the Canadian National Railway Company in respect of two conveyances, and the OntarL md Quebec Railway Company and Canadian Pacific Railway Company in respect to the other conveyance. The bill is requested by the presidents of the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific railway companies and is to confirm title to certain ordnance land which is part of the Toronto union station project, and also to other lands in respect of which old mortgages were not properly discharged. It is purely a technical bill, involving no question of policy.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. TUSTIN:: 1.	Has a new postmaster been appointed at Quorn, Ontario?
2.	If so, what is his name?
3.	Upon whose recommendation was he appointed?
4.	Is he a returned soldier?
5.	Were any of the other applicants returned men?
6.	If so, what are their names?


Mr. McLARTY:: No permanent appointment has yet been made. The ex-postmaster resigned, and in view of his departure from Quorn, the district director arranged for a temporary transfer to V. Nylund, civilian, in order to maintain service. The question of a permanent appointment is still under consideration.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. COLDWELL:: 1.	What company or companies print postage stamps for the dominion?
2.	What company or companies print revenue stamps for the dominion?
3.	What company or companies print Dominion of Canada bonds?
4.	What company or companies print Bank of Canada notes?



Questions as Orders jor Returns
5.	Do these contracts contain a fair wage clause ?
6.	Have the wage scales been inspected by government inspectors to ascertain if the fair wage clause is observed? If so, at what dates in 1938?
7.	What minimum annual wages are paid to: (a) skilled; (b) unskilled workers employed by the above contractors?
8.	What are the union or prevailing rates of wages paid for similar work in this district?



CANADIAN FUNDS IN ITALIAN BANKS

Mr. LENNARD:: 1,	Did the government receive a request from the Italo-Canadian Society of Canada, asking them to use their offices to endeavour to secure moneys being held in Italian banks, belonging to Canadians?
2.	If so, has the government done anything in this direction, and what progress has been made?


Mr. DUNNING:: I have received advice from the superintendent of insurance, who would be the natural officer to receive it, that no such request has been received by him. I have no knowledge of any such request being received by any officer of the government. If this answer is not satisfactory, an order for return might be made, which would enable it to be looked into by all departments. Perhaps an order for return would be the best solution.



CIVIL SERVICE EXAMINATIONS IN HALIFAX

Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	How many civil service competitions (examinations) took place in Halifax during the years 1936-37 and 1937-38?
2.	What were the competition numbers and the type of positions?
3.	Who were the examiners?
4.	In what buildings were examinations held?
5.	What rental, if any, was paid for buildings in connection with each examination?
6.	What were the names of the examiners, and what remuneration, jf any, was paid to each?
7.	What were the travelling expenses in each case of civil service examiners?



DAIRYING INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to encourage the improvement of cheese and cheese factories: (a) by grants in aid of the construction, reconstruction and equipment of factories; (b) by grants in aid of insulating and refrigerating factory buildings and the purchase of certain equipment; (c) by grants for high grade cheese, out of moneys appropriated by parliament.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the
CMr. Coldwell.J
subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
OTHER THAN	WHEAT-ENCOURAGEMENT OF

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to encourage the cooperative marketing of any kind of grain, other than wheat, and of other agricultural products defined in the act, by guaranteeing the initial payment of cooperative associations, as in the act defined, with provision also for the appointment and remuneration of officers, clerks and employees necessary for the administration of the act.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the Canadian National Railway Company to issue securities not exceeding $25,821,707 in principal amount to provide the moneys necessary to meet capital expenditures made or to be made during the calendar year 1939 and to make provision for the retirement of capital indebtedness during the said calendar year; to authorize the governor in council to guarantee the principal, interest and sinking funds of such securities; and to authorize the making of temporary loans to the said company secured by such securities and not exceeding $25,821,707 in principal amount to enable the said company to meet such expenditures and indebtedness.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into

Wednesday Evening Sittings
committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend The Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934, as amended by chapter 20 of the statutes of 1935 and by chapter 47 of the statutes of 1938, to provide that proposals for a composition extension of time or scheme of arrangement made by farmers under the said act as amended may be received in the province of Manitoba after June 30, 1939.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to repeal The Gold Clauses Act, 1937, and to provide that obligations payable in gold or gold coin or in an amount of money measured thereby may be discharged by payment of the nominal or face amount thereof.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. A. H. MITCHELL (Medicine Hat):: I should like to ask the government if it would consider adjourning at six o'clock today rather than at eleven o'clock, as it ordinarily would. The Easter recess is short; most of the western members will not be able to return to their homes, but I am sure many of the eastern members would like to leave as soon as possible.
Some hon. MEMBERS. No.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I think the disposition of the house is to get on with the business as rapidly as possible, but I imagine that if we made up our minds to do a good afternoon's work it might be possible to get as far by six o'clock as we would get by eleven o'clock if we were to protract proceedings in the
71492-1861	: . ;jEg|i
meantime. What I would suggest to hon. members is that it might be possible to allow some of the resolutions on the order paper to pass with the understanding that the bills would be introduced immediately, and that ample opportunity for debate would be afforded on second reading. If among the resolutions there are any that would be objected to, the government would not wish to press them at this time but I put forward that suggestion as one means of advancing the business. This would enable hon. members to have the bills before them on their return after the Easter recess. In addition, there are some bills on the order paper which I believe are non-contentious and which might be advanced.
I have one other suggestion to make which I think might help my hon. friend to achieve the end he has in mind. Hon. members will have noticed that I placed on the votes and proceedings of yesterday a notice of motion to take Wednesday evenings on and after April 12. If the house would give unanimous consent I should like to move that motion at once, in order that hon. members may have it before them on their return.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I read the motion? It is as follows:
That on Wednesday, the 12th of April, 1939, and all subsequent Wednesdays until the end of the session, the sittings shall in every respect be under the same rules provided for other days.
It would require the unanimous consent of the house to have this passed to-day.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: I do not see that the business of the house would be advanced by passing this motion to-day. I think it could be just as well left until the house meets after the Easter recess, because some hon. members who are absent may not agree.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am quite agreeable that it should stand, because, as I have said, it requires unanimous consent. What I had in mind was that sitting next Wednesday night would make up for not sitting to-night. However, perhaps we can work a little harder during the afternoon and try this again next week.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Speaking for the official opposition, I can assure the Prime Minister and the house that we are' anxious to expedite the transaction of the business of the house. With some qualifications I think I can approve the suggestion of the Prime Minister in regard to resolutions
2G34

Spanish Nationalist Government
standing on the order paper; perhaps we can adopt most of them as we go along. One or two may require some discussion, but apart from that I think the suggestions of the Prime ^Minister are acceptable, and I approve them ,on behalf of the opposition.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: With that'note [DOT]of. cooperation I may say at once that we :shall adjourn at six o'clock.
Motion stands.



LEAGUE OF NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member for
Vegreville (Mr. Hayhurst) asked me, during the discussion on external affairs, if I could give the names of the countries of central and South America which maintain permanent offices at Geneva. I have ascertained that offices are maintained by the following countries:
Argentine Republic, Bolivia, Colombia, Cuba, Mexico, Panama, Peru.
This information has been obtained from a list published by the League of Nations in January of this year.



SPANISH NATIONALIST GOVERNMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yesterday the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) asked whether the embargo on arms going into Spain would now be lifted with respect to nationalist Spain.
The answer is that in 1937 action was taken to prohibit the export of arms to Spain, the recruiting of Canadians for service in Spain and the issue of passports to Canadian nationals proposing to go to Spain for the purpose of participating in the conflict. This action was taken in view of the existence of civil war in that country and of the fact that similar action had been taken - by the United Kingdom, the United States and most European countries. As I indicated in this house last year, the purpose of these measures was-
-to prevent Canada from being drawn into foreign conflicts by the actions either of manufacturers of munitions or the organizers of foreign recruiting.
IMr. SUswvrt.1
In view of the fact that the civil war in Spain has now ended, and that the whole of Spanish territory is now under the control of a single government, steps are now being taken to rescind the above measures which, as I have indicated, were passed in view of the existence of civil war in that country.



NATIONAL DEFENCE


[Stage Direction]
Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Minister of National Defence) moved the third reading of Bill No. 38, to establish a defence purchasing board to control the awarding of contracts for the manufacture of defence equipment and the construction of defence projects, to limit costs and control profits in respect of such contracts, and to authorize the raising by way of loans of certain sums of money for such purposes.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.
LOAN OF §750,000.000

[Stage Direction]
On the order:
House again in committee on the following resolution:
Resolved,-That the governor in council be authorized to raise by way of loan under The Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, an amount not to exceed in the whole the sum of seven hundred and fifty million dollars for paying or redeeming the whole or any portion of loans or obligations of Canada, and also for purchasing and withdrawing from circulation unmatured securities of Canada, and for public works and general purposes.-The Minister of Finance.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): Before you leave the chair under this order, Mr. Speaker, I should say that the hon. member for Calgary East (Mr. Lander-you) intended, I believe, to move an amendment to the resolution. If he desires to move the amendment to-day and to have extended debate upon it, I think we had better let the order stand. If on the other hand he would be content to move his amendment on the second reading of the bill, we could now advance the resolution to the bill stage. It is for him to say.
Mr. LANDERYOU:: I am in favour of the resolution standing.


Charles Avery Dunning: I thought the hon. member would be.
Order stands.

Grain Futures



GRAIN FUTURES


[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the supervision and regulation by the board of grain commissioners of trading in grain futures on the Winnipeg grain exchange in accordance with the recommendation of the royal grain inquiry commission, 1938, and the appointment of a supervisor as an officer of the board, to observe trading on the exchange and report to the board, and for the payment of his salary and expenses of the board from moneys appropriated by parliament.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Mr. COLDWELL:: Yesterday afternoon,
after the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) had made his remarks on his two resolutions, I suggested that when the two bills were brought down they, together with the resolution of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, might go before the committee on agriculture. I believe this resolution, which has to do with the marketing of grain, might also go before that committee. I am anxious that this shall be carefully considered. I was disappointed with much the minister said yesterday, and I feel that every opportunity should be given for full discussion. I have no objection to the resolution being reported this afternoon, but I make that suggestion.


Mr. EULER:: This resolution is not directly connected with the wheat legislation which was discussed yesterday. However, the hon. member is willing to let it pass this stage. If he wishes to have it referred to the committee on agriculture, or to some other committee, it can be done on second reading of the bill.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Euler thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 81, to provide for the supervision and regulation of trading in grain futures.



PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE

[Stage Direction]
On the order for resuming the adjourned debate on the motion of the Minister of Agriculture that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair for the house to resolve itself into committee of the whole on a proposed resolution respecting prairie farm assistance:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Is there any objection to advancing order No. 16 a stage, and getting the bill down?


Mr. GARDINER:: I said last night that
I had given an undertaking to someone to
allow this to stand, if required, until after Easter. But the bill could be placed before the house now, if the resolution were advanced, and the whole discussion could take place on second reading. This would work out probably even better than having the discussion at this time.


Major James William Coldwell: Mr. Speaker, the minister has given an undertaking to someone else. So far as I am concerned I believe we had better discuss these matters on the bills, and I should be quite agreeable to having the bill introduced.



PERCENTAGE DEDUCTION FROM GRAINS MARKETED IN SPRING WHEAT AREA-PROVISION FOR ACREAGE PAYMENT

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Wednesday April 5, consideration of the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure making provision for a percentage deduction from all grain marketed in the spring wheat area, and making available other sums required for the purposes of the proposed act; to provide assistance to farmers in emergent conditions by making provision for an acreage payment, with provision also for the appointment and assignment of officials, auditors or employees.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Gardiner thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 83, to assist agriculture in the prairie provinces.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to encourage the cooperative marketing of wheat by guaranteeing the initial payment by cooperative associations, or elevator companies defined in the bill; to authorize the expenditure of sums appropriated by parliament for the purposes of this act; with provision also for the appointment and assignment of officials) auditors or employees.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Gardiner thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 82, to encourage the cooperative marketing of wheat.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
2636	COMMONS
Dairy Industry-Advisory Committee


[Stage Direction]
. Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee to consider the [DOT] following proposed resolution:	.
That it is expedient to amend the Dairy Industry Act to authorize the minister to constitute an advisory committee to advise him on matters affecting the dairy industry and to authorize the payment of the actual reasonable travelling or other expenses of the personnel of such committee.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: I think the minister might explain to the committee the scope of the resolution.


James Garfield Gardiner: This is the resolution which I explained yesterday. I really explained it at the wrong time; I should be giving my explanation to-day. It is to permit the appointment of an advisory committee to advise the dairy council and the government.


Mr. STIRLING:: Since the minister gave yesterday the explanation of this resolution which he should have given to-day, perhaps he will be good enough to make the speech he should have made on order No. 17.


Mr. WALSH:: I do not want to bring up anything of a contentious nature, especially when we see the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler) and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) moving and seconding certain bills. We are all happy to note that cordial relationship. Will this resolution provide for the appointment of officers to look after the effective advertising of dairy products in Great Britain.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Gardiner thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 84, to amend the Dairy Industry Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



RAINY LAKE WATER LEVELS


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of Bill No. 72, to cany into effect the provisions of the convention of the 15th September, 1938, providing for emergency regulation of the level of Rainy lake and

of the level of other boundary waters in the Rainy lake watershed.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: I think the house would like some explanation from the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King).


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The explanation is a very simple one; I gave it a day or so ago. The international joint commission recommended that an agreement should be entered into between Canada and the United States with respect to the waters in the Rainy lake area in the event of emergency such as flooding. The agreement which was signed last September meets with the approval of all the parties concerned, not merely the government of the United States and the government of Canada but also the province of Ontario and the province of Manitoba. The bill is designed to give effect to the terms of the agreement.) The convention itself will be found as a schedule of the bill.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Will this agreement call for the expenditure of money by Canada, or by Ontario, or by both, and if so, in what proportions?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think we
had better go into committee before I answer these questions.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Interpretation.
Mr. HEAPS:: Will this legislation have
any effect upon the water powers in the provinces?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The bill has nothing to do directly with water powers. It is entirely an emergency measure to meet unforseen situations which might arise out of such conditions as flooding and the like. To the extent to which such flooding might affect water powers for the time being, this bill wmuld have such a bearing, but it is not a bill which is concerned primarily with water powers.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If there is any cost involved, is it to be borne by the provinces affected by the bill?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Perhaps I
might give the detailed information I have which may answer three or four questions at the same time. The reason for the extensive powers provided for in this bill is that the convention gives to the international joint commission a type of function that is essentially different from those performed under

Rainy Lake Water Levels
the boundary waters treaty. The commission is to devise and carry out emergency control measures. While in point of form it is to deal with low water emergencies, practically speaking, in the great majority of instances its work will be concerned with flood conditions. The problem of coping with flood conditions in international waters requires extensive powers which would need to go to the extent of the actual operation of an international dam in the case of emergency. It is not anticipated that the commission will itself operate the dams, but it must have the legal power and authority to do so to ensure that the companies operating the dams will obey its directions. In most instances there is a serious conflict between the owner of the dam and the ordinary inhabitants. The commission may inevitably be compelled to give orders contrary to the interests of the owners of dams, and it is for this reason that the extensive powers are conferred upon it.
The general scheme of the bill is to extend the powers and procedure under the boundary waters treaty to enable the commission to perform the functions imposed upon it by the convention, and to provide for the aid of the exchequer court, if the necessity arises, to ensure obedience by private interests to the orders of the commission. Expenditures would be made by the private interests and controlled in the same manner as expenditures are controlled under the operations of the international joint commission.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I assume when the Prime
Minister refers to expenditures by private interests, he has reference to expenditures for the erection of dams. My own belief is that the erection of these dams should be carried out by those who are affected mostly by floods. In the past the people most affected have been those who own the water powers. They have suffered serious damage from flooding and they have been very anxious to have something of this kind done. I am just wondering who are the private interests referred to by the Prime Minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I mentioned a moment ago, the international joint commission has control of the entire situation. The commission is in the nature of an arbitration tribunal, and it would direct by whom the expenses should be met. Undoubtedly it would in some cases give directions as to precautions to prevent flooding and would determine in such cases how those particular measures were to be enforced. The text of the convention as a whole appears as a schedule, and I think I can give to my hon. friend in a word or two the essential
feature on which he is anxious to obtain information:
Accepting as a basis of agreement the following recommendations made by the international joint commission in its final report dated May 1, 1934, on the reference concerning Rainy lake and the boundary waters flowing into and from that lake, and particularly in answer to question 2 of that reference namely, that it would be wise and in the public interest that the commission be clothed with power to determine when unusual or extraordinary conditions exist throughout the watershed, whether by reason of high or low water, and that it be empowered to adopt such measures of control as to it may seem proper with respect to existing dams at Kettle falls and International falls, as well as any future dams or works, in the event of the commission determining that such unusual or extraordinary conditions exist. Have resolved to conclude a convention for that purpose and have accordingly named as their plenipotentiaries:
The names are given, and then it goes on:
Who, after having communicated to each other their full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed as follows:
Article 1
The international joint commission, established pursuant to the provisions of the treaty signed at Washington on the 11th day of January, 1909, relating to questions arising between Canada and the United States of America, is hereby clothed with power to determine when emergency conditions exist in the Rainy lake watershed, whether by reason of high or low water, and the commission is hereby empowered to adopt such measures of control as to it may seem proper with respect to existing dams at Kettle falls and International falls, as well as with respect to any existing or future dams or works in boundary waters of the Rainy lake watershed, in the event the commission shall determine that such emergency conditions exist.
As I say, the commission is given the power to determine what is to be done, and in so doing will determine all aspects of expenditure' in relation thereto.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Will the Prime Minister assure the committee that there will be no diversion of water either into or out of the watershed referred to in the bill?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think possibly the most effective answer I can give to my hon. friend is that the convention itself has been submitted both to the government of Ontario and to the government of Manitoba. They have had the convention now for some three months and no objection has been raised with respect to its terms. I am sure that if any question of diversion had arisen it would have been brought to the attention of our administration.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would have had to
have the attention of this administration?
Rainy Lake Water Levels


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is right.


John Ritchie MacNicol: So there are to be no
diversions either into or out of the Rainy River watershed Under this bill.
One more question. The Prime Minister in outlining the purpose of the bill said that the works necessary to the control of flood waters on the river would or might apply to the whole .watershed. There are many tributaries flowing into the Rainy river from both sides of the line, and if lands have to be purchased either in Canada or in the United States- I am not sure just which states are on the border there, Minnesota or Wisconsin, but I believe it is Minnesota-it would be costly to purchase lands required to be taken over for reservoirs or other purposes. Do I understand that all the costs of whatever works are necessary to control the flood waters on the Rainy river, and which are apparently for the benefit of certain companies, are to be paid by the companies?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I say, that will foe a matter which the commission itself will determine. It is an arbitral body. This legislation will give the commission power to say by whom the payments shall be made. We have appointed the commission as a foody to prevent disputes and to adjust disputes when they arise, and this bill simply gives them this obligation as an additional duty.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is not this a new departure for the commission, to undertake to control flood waters in an international watershed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: To the extent to which the commission may be dealing with an emergent situation such as floods, it might be an additional obligation, but it is an obligation which is ancillary to the larger obligation of regulating these matters.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Certainly if the companies which own dams on the river now are the only ones to benefit-


Charles Avery Dunning: They may suffer.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Of course, but it is the companies, I understand, that are asking for relief against floods.


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Who is asking for relief, then, against floods?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As a matter of fact I believe power is given to the commission to obtain the services of the exchequer court in dealing with this matter, in order that, among other reasons, the power may be used to prevent things being done that would not have the public interest above all as the first consideration.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If there is any flooding of property such as farm lands, would the owners be entitled to compensation?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It would depend on what the commission directed.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The commission have the
right and power to order compensation in such cases?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The point raised by the last speaker (Mr. Heaps) recalls some experiences that Canada has had in connection with the regulation of the water levels of lake Nipissing. The riparian proprietors claimed that the operation of the dam had caused erosion and flooding and damage to their property, and upon those grounds they made claims upon the dominion government. This is a feature which deserves serious consideration, because, as the Prime Minister very well knows, people are very ingenious in developing or finding damages where the natural flow of the water is interfered with. It is a phase of this question which I think is very important indeed. Where would the responsibility rest for damage of that kind? Claims will certainly be made upon this government, petitions will be presented from time to time, and they will have to be disposed of in some manner. The claims would be perennial, coming up all the time. What is the machinery for dealing with those claims, and how will the Dominion of Canada, being a party to these undertakings and recognizing the infallible justice of the crown, be able to escape moral or legal liability for such damage as arises?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The whole purpose of the international joint commission is to adjust just such problems as my hon. friend has mentioned.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: As between nations, but not, I submit, with respect to individuals. Individual Canadian citizens who have suffered damage to their property will look not to the international joint commission but to this government.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The Minister of Finance mentions that the whole purpose of this bill is to prevent the possibility of there being damage. It arises with a view to trying to prevent floods and the like occurring: it is to take steps which will avoid just the kind of difficulty my hon. friend has mentioned.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: But when there is any interference with the actual flow of water, or a flooding, or any other like condition, the claim may be made that somebody has been injuri-

Rainy Lake Water Levels
ously affected by the action which has been taken. I am sure the government will find that with the best of intentions, claims will develop. How will such claims be disposed of? Where is the ultimate liability with respect to such a claim?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should think that in a matter of the kind the commission itself would be the best body to advise the governments as to any claims and as to what in the circumstances would be considered right and proper. I do not believe the matter can be decided on a hypothetical case; it would have to be in relation to some actual case which might arise.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Well, I predict that an actual case will arise as it has in the past.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
On section 4-Commission to determine existence of emergency conditions and adopt measures of control.
John Ritchie MacNicol: I do not wish to hold this up, as perhaps the information is not at hand, but I assume that before the government gave its consent to the proposal of the international joint commission the government's own engineers made a thorough survey of all that is involved in this bill. Is that so?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, I understand that is so.


John Ritchie MacNicol: And the government
engineers approved of the import of this bill, of everything concerned in the matter of damage and so forth, and the control of the waters of the river?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: All I can say to my hon. friend is that the government would not proceed with a measure of this nature without having the appropriate authorities satisfy their minds as to the advisability of the enactment. I am sure that whatever public officials ought appropriately to be consulted in a matter of this kind have been consulted and have been satisfied that the proposals ate quite correct.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Well, the engineers of what department?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That I cannot say.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.
On section 7-Measures of control to be binding.
Abraham Albert Heaps: Who is the "attorney general
of Canada"?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My right hon. friend the Minister of Justice.


John Ritchie MacNicol: May I suggest that the chairman read the clauses as we go along so that we can try to grasp the importance of them. We wish to carry this measure, but it is going pretty fast to run through a bill of this importance simply by calling out "carried-carried-carried."


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This has been before my hon. friend.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Has it been estimated how much money, if any, this country will have to put up to carry out the works proposed under this bill? As a rule, works designed to control floods on any size of river-and this is a large river-cost a lot of money. Many of the dams on the rivers which have been flood-proofed recently in the country to the south have cost as much as a million or more dollars. This is a large river and must have substantial tributaries. Before we pass this bill we should know about how much this project will cost, if the companies are not going to pay it-and if it costs very much they will not be able to pay it all. This country is not in the business of flood-proofing an international river for the sake of dams which are now used for the operation of paper mills.


Charles Avery Dunning: Surely my hon. friend is wrong when he spoke of this as an international river. It is indeed a large area covered by water which flows in two directions. I know that the member for Winnipeg North is well acquainted with it, as I am myself. It has been subject over a long period to agreement between Manitoba and Ontario and the adjoining states. There are numerous present developments, based on normal water levels and normal amounts of water to be used by each power authority. As I see it, this is merely empowering a body which already exists, namely the international joint commission, to give orders with respect to emergent conditions when they arise. Such orders will be obligatory upon all those who now own the dams which maintain the water levels of that great area. We are not dealing with something new.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is what I want to bring out.


Charles Avery Dunning: If my memory serves me correctly, all the water power available for that great area is now in process of use. The dams are all there; and as a result of the experience of a number of years it has been found desirable to have some single authority which could give orders to all dam owners
Rainy Lake Water Levels

in cases of crisis either by reason of flood, on the one hand, or of shortage on the other. The international joint commission on which both countries are represented was set up for that purpose, and in connection with the convention which is extending to them these powers, the two provinces concerned have no objection; so that it is really a matter of creating single authority so far as giving orders is concerned. At the present time, as I understand it, something may be done under the authority of the province of Manitoba in connection with the Manitoba portion, and something different may be done, in connection with another dam, by the province of Ontario, all of which would make proper coordination difficult in times of emergent conditions due to flood. As I see it, this is merely a method of providing one authority to whom all those interested may represent conditions as they arise, and which may be able to look at the whole picture, instead of a part of it, as would be the case with Manitoba or Ontario or the state of Minnesota. Really that is all that is involved.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I appreciate what the minister has said; I thoroughly understand the situation up there. But as I interpret this bill and what the Prime Minister has said, the whole watershed was covered. The latest system of flood-proofing rivers has been to control the tributaries of the main river. The dams referred to are, I believe, on the main river.


Charles Avery Dunning: Not in all cases.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The International dam is on the main river. Is the other dam, the Kettle Falls, on the main river?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is one dam on the outlet in the Manitoba direction.


John Ritchie MacNicol: But I mean, on the main river? They are both on the main river, are they not? The International Falls dam is on the main river.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, there is no doubt of that.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I may be wrong in my conception of the purpose of the bill, but I concluded that it was to flood-proof the Rainy river. If that is so, it entails, if the latest engineering practice is followed, control of the waters of the tributaries that flow into the main river and containing them within reservoirs. That is the way the Ohio river is being flood-proofed, on the main river and its fourteen main tributaries.


Charles Avery Dunning: But these are now owned by companies which are interested in the development of the power.
(Mr. Dunning.]


John Ritchie MacNicol: If a proper job is to be done, all the tributaries may have to have reservoirs. I may 'be wrong, -but my concern is that it should not cost this country any money.


Charles Avery Dunning: Well, if any is to be spent they certainly will have to come to this parliament for it. This is not an authority to spend money at all; it is an authority to this body to control these works. If any money is to be expended by the department, parliament would have to deal with it.


John Ritchie MacNicol: If I were going to flood-proof rivers in Ontario, I would deal with the rivers running into them.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 8 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 63, to amend the Foreign Insurance Companies Act, 1932.
He said: I should explain that the object of this bill is to extend to foreign insurance companies doing business in Canada the same investment facilities as were extended one year ago to our Canadian companies. It will be remembered that the Canadian companies a year ago were given the right to invest in equipment trust certificates of Canadian railways. I dealt with the matter fully at that time. The object of this bill is to extend to foreign insurance companies doing business in Canada the same right to invest with respect to their Canadian business. Also it gives them the right, which was extended to Canadian insurance companies, to invest in certain new types of public utility investments in Great Britain. The best examples I can give of the type of quasi-government or quasi-privale institution are the port of London authoritj', and the London transport board, a new type of financial set-up which has come into being in recent years, in the securities of which until last year our Canadian insurance companies were not allowed to invest. One year ago we extended the privilege of so investing to our Canadian companies, and this bill will extend the same privilege to foreign companies which operate in Canada with respect to their Canadian business.

Transport Stores Act
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Have the Canadian companies the right to invest in securities such as the minister mentioned, the port of London authority?


Charles Avery Dunning: It was granted last year.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Assets in which the company has invested its funds.
Abraham Albert Heaps: What is the definition of a foreign insurance company?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is a Foreign Insurance Companies Act in which the term "foreign insurance company" is defined. I have not the statute before me, but I can perhaps give an offhand answer which will satisfy my hon. friend. A foreign insurance company under this act is an insurance company incorporated in a foreign country but which is licensed to do business in Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 54, to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Assets in which the company has invested its funds.
Charles Avery Dunning: This bill has the effect of conferring upon British companies the same investment privileges as in the previous bill were extended to foreign insurance companies.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport) moved the second reading of Bill No. 39, to amend the Department of Transport Stores Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
71492-167A
On section 1-Outstanding advances not to exceed 81,000,000.
Major James William Coldwell: Might we have a
brief explanation of the bill, why it is brought in, and what it is supposed to do?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This bill amends the Department of Transport Stores Act which was passed at the last session. It has been found in practice that the stores act did not, in one or two particulars, accomplish what was intended. It will be remembered that the act gave authority to consolidate the stores of the separate branches, that is, the canals branch, the lighthouse branch, the radio branch, the marine branch and the aviation branch. It also provided that the department could anticipate the appropriations for the fiscal year to the extent of 81,000,000. The reason for that provision is that, at the beginning of the fiscal year, it is necessary to move large quantities of supplies to lighthouses and to undertake certain works having to do with the opening of navigation. The provision intended that expenditures up to $1,000,000 could be made from the appropriations of the next fiscal year, but the auditor general has interpreted the word "appropriations" as meaning money that has been voted by parliament. That is, in spite of the intent of the act, the auditor general has not permitted the de-. partment to use funds in advance of those actually being voted by the house. The amount of such purchases is still limited to a maximum of $1,000,000, but this allows us to anticipate appropriations to that extent in order to facilitate the work of the department.
The other change is in connection with the maximum amount of stores allowed to be in stock at the end of the fiscal year. The act now provides that the amount of stores should not be in excess of the amount held by the department at the end of the preceding fiscal year, which amount is about $850,000. On examining the work of the department, and having in mind the extension of the aviation branch, it has ueen determined that the maximum amount of stores at the end of a fiscal year should be fixed at not more than $1,250,000 instead of as provided under the' act as it now stands. Those are the only changes.


Major James William Coldwell: In other words, it
enables the department to spend money before it has been definitely appropriated by parliament?


Clarence Decatur Howe: To order current supplies,
such as food for lighthouses and such materials as may be required in connection
Transport Stores Act

with the opening of canals. Unfortunately, the opening of the navigation season usually precedes the passage of the estimates by this house.


Mr. COLD WELL:: I understand the
difficulty. Is there any precedent for this in any other act of this parliament?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are several departments that have revolving funds of that kind. For instance, the national harbours board is entitled to expend $1,000,000 beyond its appropriation, with the understanding that this amount will be the first charge on the new appropriations. The printing bureau also has provision for a revolving fund, and I believe last year the Department of Mines and Resources set up a revolving fund for work among the Indians.


Thomas Miller Bell: I am not raising any objection; I am merely seeking information.


Charles Avery Dunning: Broadly speaking, there is a principle running through acts relating to several departments, that where stores are obviously required to be maintained in order that current operations may be continued, there is a provision either of this sort or of the kind that exists in connection with the printing bureau, so that continuity of operation may be possible. In each instance there is a limitation placed by parliament on the amount of stores that may be in stock at any time.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Will this entirely meet the provisions of the Audit Act and the authority of the comptroller of the treasury, without any specific reference to that point?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This amendment has been
suggested by the auditor general, who agrees with us as to the intent of the act passed last year but who has raised the technical difficulty that makes the present act inoperative. It was intended that we could anticipate the passing of the estimates to the extent of $1,000,000, but the auditor general raised the technical point that an estimate does not become an appropriation until it has been approved by the house.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Under the old act would it be necessary to get the authority of the comptroller of the treasury before any expenditure could be made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Quite, but this amendment is our authority for anticipating our vote. In other words, with this authority in hand there will be no difficulty about getting the approval of the comptroller of the treasury.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.

On section 2-Inventory.
John Ritchie MacNicol: May I ask the minister as to the main branches or groups of stores that are carried in stock in connection with this bill?
Mr. HOW'E: They are the stores for all branches of the Department of Transport; the canals branch, the marine branch, the lighthouse branch, the radio branch and the civil aviation branch, all of which require considerable stores in order to carry on their operations.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Fisheries) moved the second reading of Bill No. 75, to amend the Meat and Canned Foods Act (fish and shell fish).
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-"can", "canned fish or shell fish".
Major James William Coldwell: What is the object of this bill? I notice the words "also lobster meat cooked for sale." I should like to know the difference.


Mr. MICHAUD:: This is to cover a new method of marketing lobster meat which has been adopted by the trade within the last few years, and which is not carried on, in some instances, under the most sanitary methods. We have found that under the law as it stands we cannot control this. The object of this bill is to amend the law in order to give us control over the containers and the method of putting this meat into the containers for export.


Major James William Coldwell: What about other types of fish?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: They are all controlled already.


John Ritchie MacNicol: After the cans are filled with fish, are they marked so that importers of Canadian canned fish in other countries can be certain that the canned fish comes from Canada?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.

Meat and Canned Foods Act


John Ritchie MacNicol: A day or so ago I read an article which stated that certain companies in the old country are importing Japanese fish, and that the cans they use have on the outside of them the letters C-A-N-"Can." Certain importers were under the impression that the fish was from Canada. That may or may not be so; but, if it is so, some steps should be taken to make sure that any fish marked as Canadian fish should be, in fact, Canadian fish.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Section 18 of the act provides for the proper labelling and marking of fish packed in Canada. We feel that unless the cans or labels are tampered with after the product leaves Canada, the provisions are sufficient properly to indicate the source of origin of our fish.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Are importations of fish canned in other countries marked so that a Canadian buyer may be certain that the fish is from another country, and not from Canada?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: If the hon. member will look at the second section of the bill he will find that in that section we meet the very situation he describes.


Mr. GREEN:: Has there been trouble
recently in Australia because of Japanese shippers sending in canned salmon marked in such a way that it may be mistaken for Canadian salmon? If so, would the minister explain the situation?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I am sure the hon. member will understand the impossibility of controlling from this end that kind of operation. We provide in Canada for the proper canning and labelling of our fish for export, but we cannot control people in foreign countries who may imitate our cans or labels, as is being done. So far we have been unable to find any method of controlling that sort of thing, especially when it applies to foreign countries.
We are now seeking authority to control such difficulties in connection with foreign fish imported into Canada. But so far as the control of competition in foreign markets is concerned, may I say we feel we have no method of control.


Howard Charles Green: Has the government made any representations to the government of Australia with regard to this unfair competition?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We made representations to the trade, to our exporters, to see that they take proper precautions and advertise their goods in a manner which will differentiate and which will indicate the source of origin of the goods.


Howard Charles Green: Did the government of
Canada warn the Australian government about this false or misleading labelling of Japanese salmon on the Australian market?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No.


Mr. REID:: I wonder if the hon. member has in mind this situation: Canadian fish is. going into Australia bearing labels printed in. Japan. Those labels are manufactured, as l understand it, from British Columbia wood-They come to Vancouver, are placed on tins of salmon going to Australia, the labels being marked "Made in Japan." There has been considerable trouble about that. The importers get a rebate. I know the Australian government has been raising a fuss about labels manufactured in Japan being placed on cans of Canadian salmon.


Howard Charles Green: I would suggest that the Department of Fisheries look into the whole situation, because from the information I have, there is at the present time unfair competition on the Australian market in connection with our Canadian canned salmon.


John Ritchie MacNicol: We will suppose a Canadian importer imports a million cans of canned fish from Japan, or some other foreign country. After the cans of fish arrive in Canada, is there any section in the act which will prevent the importer from removing from the ' cans the labels signifying the country of origin, and then putting on labels intimating that the fish in the cans was packed in Canada?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes. Of course there is no method of controlling this bootlegging until it is found out. But under the provisions of the act it is clearly indicated that fish canned in Canada must show on the outside of the can the place of origin, and conspicuously show by whom it is put up. In connection with the business of canning fish, as in many other businesses, a certain amount of bootlegging is done, and we can punish the offenders only when they are caught.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Some days ago I read that a considerable quantity of Argentine meat is coming into Canada in cans. On its arrival in Canada, a Canadian distributor affixes labels intimating that the meat is the product of Canada, whereas, as a matter of fact, it was really packed in the Argentine. Could such a thing take place in connection with canned fish?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: To a certain extent, when some unscrupulous dealers remove the labels, after the fish has been imported, and place on the cans labels intimating that the goods

Meat and Canned Foods Act
have been produced in Canada. But such procedure is against the law, and when it is [DOT]detected it is punished.


Mr. SPENCE:: There is a heavy penalty for it. Surely an importer could not do it and get away with it. It is up to the department to see that he does not do it.


Thomas Miller Bell: I was wondering if there was anything in the act which would have the effect of standardizing the type of can used. In the Department of Agriculture there is legislation respecting certain sizes of cheeses; butter has to be of a certain weight, and so on. It seems to me that in order to save the reputation of Canadian goods we might well consider adopting some type of standardization. A purchaser may buy a can of fish but might not look at the wrapper to see the small print stating what the can contained. I believe the sale of our products would be helped considerably if as a country we adopted a standard can for goods of this description.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We have regulations providing for sizes, depending upon the weight of the contents. There are eighths, quarters, halves and pounds.


Major James William Coldwell: That is in the act?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.	.


Mr. MALLETTE:: I have been supplied with a can of fish, marked "packed in Japan." The label bears the name "Birks Crawford Limited, Vancouver." I send this to the minister for his attention.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is nothing against that. Any person may import fish from another country. It is indicated on the can that the fish was canned in Japan. There is further indication as to the kind of fish, the weight and where it was put up. That cannot be helped. People import from foreign countries goods to be sold in this country. That is how we have trade relations with other countries; there must be an exchange of goods.


Joseph Léon Vital Mallette: I have not blamed anybody or made any complaints, but the fact is that anybody buying such a can of fish will see the English label and will think it is a Canadian product. It may be said that it is Canadian goods packed in Japan, and so it is -but that is just the point.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: There is nothing in the law to compel the use of the Japanese language on the laJbel of goods imported into this country.


Abraham Albert Heaps: What kind of fish is it?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Tuna fish.
{Mr. Michaud.3


Major James William Coldwell: Do the regulations with regard to the size of containers apply to cans imported from foreign countries?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No.


Major James William Coldwell: The Canadian canner
may ibe at a disadvantage because the Japanese tin obviously looks much smaller than the Canadian. You may find seven or eight ounces in the Canadian can, and only six or seven in the imported can. Can anything be done to regulate that?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Not yet.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I notice in this morning's paper that Japanese fish is being sold abroad with the letters CAN on the can. Naturally people are under the impression that these are Canadian goods. Of course, that is nothing new; I understand that Japanese goods are being sold with the letters USA on them. This sort of deception is practised in order to obtain markets abroad. Is there any means the department could adopt to overcome these practices which are obviously intended to deceive the people?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: When salmon is packed in Canada the word " Canada " must be embossed on the can, but that is not necessary in the case of other fish. Where fish is packed in a foreign country, such as Japan, and sold in Australia, my hon. friend will realize that we have no control over the sale beyond pointing out the practice to the government of Australia.	'


Abraham Albert Heaps: We have trade commissioners abroad. If Japanese salmon is being sold in Australia, for instance, in tins which contain the letters CAN-this is an obvious effort to deceive the public-it should be the duty of the Department of Trade and Commerce, the Department of Fisheries or whatever department has jurisdiction over such a matter, to see that steps are taken to protect the good name of Canadian goods. I do not know the quality of salmon that is being packed in Japan, but there is no doubt in my mind that this practice is being carried on with the intention of taking advantage of the imperial connections between Canada and Australia and probably with the idea of foisting an inferior quality of fish upon the people of Australia. Has the department taken any steps in connection with this matter? [DOT]


Joseph Enoil Michaud: When such matters are brought to our attention we look into them, but my _hon. friend knows how delicate these matters are when they must be brought to the attention of other governments. It is difficult to prove the intention of the people of a foreign country resorting to such practices.

Meat and Canned Foods Act
All we can do is to point out that such a thing is being done and tell the people to take precautions, to be on their guard when buying fish of this type.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not think the difficulty is as great as the minister indicates. When a matter of this kind is brought to the attention of the government, and the facts are proved, as I believe they could be, the department with the proper jurisdiction should take the necessary action. Substantial sums are provided to advertise Canadian goods, and I think it should be pointed out that cans with the letters CAN upon them do not contain Canadian goods. I do not think it is necessary to go to the Japanese government and ask them to be nice. There is no need of entering into negotiations with another government in connection with a matter of this kind; all the government has to do is to acquaint the people in the country in which such goods are being sold with the fact that they are not Canadian goods. Perhaps the Minister of Trade and Commerce could state whether his department has taken any action.


William Daum Euler: I am afraid I cannot give
my hon. friend a definite reply. I must admit that I have not been following the debate very closely. I understand my hon. friend was referring to canned salmon.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes.


William Daum Euler: And to the fact that the letters CAN appeared on the cans with the intention of having the product regarded as Canadian salmon.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes.


William Daum Euler: This is the first intimation
I have had of it. I understand my hon. friend wanted to know why the Department of Trade and Commerce, which carries on the advertising of Canadian products in the United Kingdom, could not indicate to the British public that cans bearing the letters CAN are not of Canadian origin. I suppose that could be done, but I have not given the matter consideration. I shall be glad to do so.


Howard Charles Green: Some weeks ago I asked
for a return of correspondence dealing with the situation in Australia, and the return was brought down yesterday. I should like to refer both the Minister of Trade and Commerce ' (Mr. Euler) and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Michaud) to the documents in this return. The first letter to which I should like to refer is dated September 15, 1938, from the Canadian trade commissioner in Sydney, Australia, to Mr. Wilgress in
Ottawa. This letter deals with salmon being sold under the Japanese label, and points out:
I am sending you concurrently one tin, 3J oz. size, of beauty brand fancy pink salmon, which bears on the label
"Packed for Tonson Packing Company,
Sydney, N.S.W. packed in Japan"
However, the top of the container bears the letters CAN, as shown in the attached pressing.
I brought this to the attention of the chief inspector of the department of health for New South Wales, and he purchased several cans from Seifridges Limited (no connection with Selfridges of London), so that he might consider whether or not this was calculated to deceive a purchaser who might think that the marking on the can meant "Canada." He is not of the opinion at the moment that any definite action on his part would be warranted; nevertheless he is keeping this occurrence under observation and will probably have an opportunity of bringing the matter to the attention of such organizations as the housewives' association.
The whole subject of labelling and competition from Japan in the canned salmon trade is the cause of much concern at the present time, and I am now bringing this matter to your attention so that you may advise the Department of Fisheries respecting our efforts to deal with such instances as the present one. For this purpose I am attaching an additional copy of this letter, and I assume that you will hand the can of salmon to the Department of Fisheries after you have had an opportunity of examining it.
Then there is a cable dated January 11, 1939, from Mr. Cosgrave in Australia, which reads as follows:
Referring to my letter of 15th September canned salmon marking embossed lettering CAN referred regarded as contravention of commerce trade description act. Though shipments in transit 30th November will be admitted strict compliance necessary further shipments by indelible marking produce of union of socialist soviet republics in Asia in conjunction with lettering CAN. Suggest that you advise department fisheries and Vancouver, B.C., Canada.
Then, apparently without the Minister of Fisheries knowing anything about it, Australia took steps to help us out. There is also a letter to Mr. Wilgress from Mr. Bryan in Liverpool, dated February 22, 1939, with regard to Japanese salmon. This points out that the same thing is happening in Great Britain, and states:
Under separate cover I am sending you a sample tin of Siberian medium red salmon, which I picked up when interviewing the trade yesterday and which may be a direct infringement of the Canadian trade mark.
You will note that the top of this tin is embossed with the word CAN in a circle and I understand that quite large quantities of this particular tin reached this market last year.
Messrs. Jos. Travers and Son, 44, Stanley street, Liverpool, from whom I procured this sample, received a considerable quantity of it. They explained that, in connection with a shipment of Siberian medium red salmon sold to
Meat and Canned Foods Act

a Bristol firm, they received a reply from the buyer stating that, while his order called for Siberian medium red, he was glad to see they had sent him Canadian salmon at the same price.
This proves conclusively that, even though this particular embossing is not intended to be an imitation of the Canadian tin, it is having this effect, and I think that action should be taken officially to put a stop to it, as I do not believe for a moment that the British government would tolerate unfair business practices of this kind.
It may be an attempt on the part of the Japanese shippers to participate in the increased demand and call for Canadian salmon as a result of our publicity during the last couple of years.
In other words, the Japanese are trying to cash in on our "Canada calling" campaign in Great Britain. The letter goes on:
I shall be glad to learn what action is taken to counteract the use of this salmon tin on the British market.
That was 'six weeks ago. Has any action been taken by either the Department of Trade and Commerce or the Department of National Revenue?


William Daum Euler: So far as the Department of Trade and Commerce is concerned, perhaps I should know of this incident but I am free to confess I do not. I shall certainly make inquiries, and if in the opinion of our trade commissioners in Britain, who with the department are watching these matters very, very closely, there is ground for believing there is misrepresentation or action being taken by any other country to sell goods as Canadian which are not Canadian, we shall certainly see that it is brought to the attention of the British government. Action, of course, would have to be taken by that government.


Howard Charles Green: Mr. Bryan is chief trade
commissioner in Great Britain?


William Daum Euler: Not chief.


Howard Charles Green: He is one of the trade commissioners in Great Britain?


William Daum Euler: Yes, he is our trade commissioner in Liverpool.


Mr. NEILL:: The hon. member for
Vancouver South, when he was drawing up his request for correspondence, so drew it that it was confined to communications passing between the government and officials in Australia. He did not extend it to correspondence with officials in Canada. I had an opportunity of glancing at the file to-day, and I see that what correspondence there was, referred to, indeed announced, that in the early spring there was going to be a meeting of the canned salmon producers of British Columbia with the officials.
fMr. Green.]
No date was mentioned, but it was indicated that the meeting would be in January or February, perhaps. I should like the Minister of Fisheries to say if the department is ever going to deal with this subject and discuss what could be done to meet the situation, perhaps by greater care on the part of the companies in putting up and marketing their product; and what the government will do to offset this very obvious attempt to palm off Japanese salmon or salmon caught in Siberian waters as our Canadian salmon. Putting the letters CAN on top of the can to give the impression that it is a Canadian product is thoroughly in line with what the Japanese have done in other lines of trade. They have in Japan a town called U.S.A. and another called Chicago, and they can mark their goods "Made in U.S.A.", but the fact that it is U.S.A. in Japan does not appear obvious to the ordinary housewife.
I call attention to something similar which I took up a year ago but did not get very far with it; in fact, I did not get anywhere. I wish the Minister of Trade and Commerce and the Minister of Fisheries would combine with the Minister of National Revenue to do something about this matter. It was discovered that when Australia gave us a preference on our salmon, the Japanese trade immediately took steps to offset that. It appears that there was a broker of great prominence and influence who was in the habit of handling Japanese goods exclusively, and he did not like to see the Japanese trade slip away. So he devised this scheme, and it has not even been denied. They sent over to Japan and got labels printed there, because cheap labour in [DOT] Japan made it cheaper to get the labels printed there than in Vancouver. The labels had on them, "Printed in Japan." Then they sent them over, not to the manufacturer because in that case the Minister of National Revenue could have got after them, but to the broker in Vancouver, and he put them on our Canadian goods and shipped them over to Japan. Then he got payments of drawbacks, because these labels were brought into Canada, and in a certain sense were used in our own remanufacture, and so were entitled to drawback. The Minister of National Revenue said flatly that he could not see any way in which he could reject their claim for drawback of duty on those labels brought in under conditions of cheap labour in Japan and used to give a black eye to our Canadian producers and steal the trade away from them. If the article to be shipped over was good, as it would be having been inspected by us, and it gave the impression it

Meat and Canned Foods Act
was put up by Japan, with Japanese labels, that was all to the good of Japanese trade. But if Australia had the same idea that other people have, of not wanting to buy Japanese goods, then they would unknowingly be rejecting our Canadian goods. I took the matter up very thoroughly a year ago. Now I see on the order paper a question respecting some man called Earle Page, an Australian official of some kind.


William Daum Euler: He is deputy prime minister of Australia.


Alan Webster Neill: I did not know they had a deputy prime minister.


William Daum Euler: They have.


Alan Webster Neill: Well, he is deputy prime
minister of Australia. He had been in the old country and was coming through Canada on his way home, and he was to take this matter up. That was some time ago. Can the minister tell me if Mr. Page did come here, and whether he met with the Minister of National Revenue or the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and whether any steps will be taken in this matter? It is unthinkable that we should allow this thing to go on by which our Canadian goods, which we spend so much to advertise, should go to Australia, a friendly country, marked made or put up by Japan, and that we should allow into this country cheap labels, produced under cheap labour conditions, and give them a drawback under the conditions I have indicated. Some way should be found within the scope of the rules of the Department of National Revenue whereby this matter could be dealt with, and if there is no other way, at least refuse the drawback. Not only are they using these cheap labels, but they are palming off their salmon as ours.


Howard Charles Green: I have now had an opportunity to look further into this return, and I find that following the letter from Mr. Bryan to Mr. Wilgress, Mr. Fortington, chief of the commodity division, wrote to Mr. Cowie, acting deputy minister of fisheries, on March 7 of this year, as follows:
Japanese Salmon in Britain
Attached is a duplicate of a letter dated the 22nd ultimo received from our office in Liverpool and under separate cover we are forwarding the sample to which reference is made.
If conditions are as they seem to be, this question would seem to warrant special attention. In any event, we shall much appreciate your continued cooperation by advising us as to the nature of the reply which should be sent to the Canadian trade commissioner in Liverpool.
Mr. Cowie, acting deputy minister of fisheries, replied on March 11 as follows:
I have your letter of March 7 with which was enclosed one to you from your trade commissioner in Liverpool, England, with regard to what appears to be misrepresentation in marking a quarter tin of Siberian salmon, a sample tin of which was received with your letter.
I have no doubt in my mind that the letters CAN embossed on the tin sent by your trade commissioner are intended to give buyers the impression that they have been supplied with a tin of Canadian salmon, particularly when they know that our regulations call for the embossing of the word "Canada" on tins of Canadian salmon. To be sure, the mark on the Siberian tin is an abbreviation, but I do think that no one could be persuaded into thinking that it was not meant to convey the idea that it was a tin of Canadian salmon.
I would suggest as the simplest way of dealing with this matter that your trade commissioner at Liverpool be instructed to lay the subject matter before the proper authorities in Great Britain and state that this department feels that the mark referred to on the Siberian tin is one that is bound to mislead consumers into thinking they are buying Canadian salmon.
Has anything been done to follow up that suggestion?


William Daum Euler: As I said before to my hon. friend, the matter comes to me without notice. I again give him the assurance that I will take note of it, make inquiries, and take such steps as may seem proper and appropriate.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In making the inquiry would it not be advisable to ascertain whether or not the cans which contained the Siberian fish were made in Japan? Because apparently it was Japan which first started shipping out cans with the letters CAN thereon. It is quite possible that the producers in Siberia purchase their cans from Japan, Means should foe taken to prevent any other country from using cans with the letters CAN thereon.


William Daum Euler: While I am not inviting further discussion, I may say that if this discussion continues for another few minutes I may be able to give definite information to the committee.


Mr. ROBICHAUD:: In order to prolong the discussion and accommodate the Minister of Trade and Commerce, I desire to discuss section 2. I think that we have been discussing it for the last twenty minutes.


The CHAIRMAN:: We are on section 1. Shall section 1 carry?


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Imported canned fish to be labelled.
Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: This is what we have been discussing for the last twenty minutes. As I understand it, the amendment is to add to section 26 of the act the words " in a plain and conspicuous manner." In the explanatory

264S

Meat and Canned Foods Act
note on the next page it says that the subsection to foe amended now reads as follows:
(1) All cans of fish or shellfish imported into Canada shall be correctly labelled so as ' to indicate
(a)	the kind and quality of their contents;
(b)	the minimum weight in avoirdupois of the contents of the cans in the case of canned fish and of the dry meat in the can in the case of canned shellfish;
(c)	the place of origin;
(d)	the name and address of the person, firm or corporation by whom they are packed or by whom they are imported.
It is plain that the law foflbids any importer to import Japanese canned fish unless the label on the can indicates clearly that they come from Japan, what are the contents, and the name and address of the person who imports them. As section 26 of the act now stands, it says that " all cans of fish or shellfish imported " shall be labelled, and paragraph (d) refers to the place where they are packed, and by -whom: the word used is " they," which evidently refers to cans. But suppose that fish is imported from Japan, and after the cans arrive here the importer takes the contents out of the can and puts that same fish into his own cans, bearing Canadian labels; I do not think there is, anything in this section to prohibit that.
Mr. STIRLING; Does he ever do it?


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: According to some hon. members he could easily afford to do so, because the importer gets the fish so cheap.


David Spence: Some hon. members seem to be suspicious of anybody.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: There is nothing in the law to prevent the importer from doing that. An easy way of preventing it would be to substitute for the words ''all cans of fish or shellfish imported", the words "all fish or shellfish imported, whether canned when imported or canned after importation, shall be correctly labelled" and so forth.


Howard Charles Green: Could the minister give us some idea of the kinds of fish which are imported into Canada, the values, and the countries from which they come?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have not that information here. It is a matter for the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Howard Charles Green: Is there an extensive
importation of -fish into Canada?


William Daum Euler: No. On the question of
the letters embossed on the top of these cans of salmon which come in from Japan, I have a little information to add. Under the British law it is necessary to have printed on the label the words "foreign produce". But they

need not appear on top of the can, and the words were printed in such small type that our commissioners raised objection to it, and that has been corrected. With regard to the letters CAN, apparently at the moment there is nothing in the British marking act which conflicts with that; at least they are not in a position at the moment to act definitely. All I can say is that the matter is under consideration between the officials of the Department of Fisheries and the Department of Trade and Commerce, and we shall certainly take such action as is possible to prevent this practice.


David Spence: That is it-take action.


Alan Webster Neill: The man to whom I alluded as Earle Page, and who I believe is deputy prime minister of Australia, is a man of some importance. Apparently he comes here and has dealings with this government. I assume he deals with the heads of the government. Does not the minister know anything about this visit?


William Daum Euler: Decidedly I do. I had the pleasure of a visit from Sir Earle Page, and when I described him as deputy prime minister I believe my statement was correct. At any rate, he acts always in the absence of the prime minister, Mr. Lyons.


An hon. MEMBER:: He is the leader of the Country party.


William Daum Euler: There are two parties, and he is head of one party and Mr. Lyons is head of the other. I believe it is a sort of coalition government, and Sir Earle Page acts as second in command in the absence of the prime minister. I had the pleasure of meeting him in Australia and in London. I know him well. He remained for some time after the coronation, did some business in England. On his way home he called on me in Ottawa, but I cannot recall that this matter was discussed. There was no special business to be discussed; the call was more or less of a courtesy nature. We reviewed some of our trade connections, and that is as far as it went. I regret that I cannot tell the hon. member for Comox-Albemi anything more with regard to the particular matter he has brought up to-day.


Alan Webster Neill: Well then, perhaps the Minister of Fisheries can give us more light at the other end of it. The correspondence introduced by the hon. member for Vancouver South, which by the way he swiped from me-I will not say "swiped"; I will say, subtly obtained-indicated that there was to be a meeting of the trade in Vancouver, and some of this correspondence was

Trade and Industry Commission
being sent to Major Motherwell, who is chief supervisor there, in anticipation of its being dealt with at that meeting of the trade. Has he any knowledge of such a meeting having been held, or what was done at it?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Could the Minister of Fisheries tell us where the cans in which this fish is packed are made?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: In Canada.


Abraham Albert Heaps: In Canada or in the United
States? All these cans are produced by some international cartel.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Some are made in Canada and some are imported. Most of the cans used in the east are made in factories in Canada.


Abraham Albert Heaps: But what I am referring
to is the cans on which the letters CAN appear.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Apparently, from what
we have been told, they are made in Japan. The fish is canned in Japan and exported from Japan to Australia and Great Britain with this word imprinted on the top of the can. It is fish supposed to be put up in Japan. In Canada our regulations provide that cans containing salmon shall bear on the top of the can the full word "Canada."


Grote Stirling: Embossed.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, embossed.


Grote Stirling: That being so, what regulations cover the use of glass bottles? It could not be embossed on a glass bottle.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: For salmon?


Grote Stirling: For anything mentioned
in the bill.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I do not know of any
salmon in glass bottles being exported. For other fish it is not necessary.


Thomas Reid: Has the minister given any
consideration to having the date also put on these imported cans? The date is on Canadian canned fish if I remember aright-at any rate, the year. While you are changing the regulations it might be a further safeguard of quality if the year were put on the can.	.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is worth looking into.


Alan Webster Neill: The Minister of Trade and
Commerce has kindly promised to look into the illegal use of our marks on tins. Would he also note the separate issue mentioned, that of the importing of labels from Japan? They
have the labels printed in Japan because they can get them 50 cents a thousand cheaper, send them to Vancouver, and have them put on there. Surely in such a case they should be refused the advantage of the drawback.


William Daum Euler: I shall be glad to look into
that, but it is really a matter for my colleague the Minister of National Revenue.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved the second reading of Bill No. 60, to amend the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission Act, 1935.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Governor in council upon advice of commission may prescribe standards and establish grades.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Will the minister explain this bill a little more fully?


William Daum Euler: I cannot give a great deal more explanation than is given in the explanatory note, except what I said on the introduction of the resolution. The Dominion Trade and Industry Commission Act is now under the administration of the tariff board, as my hon. friend probably knows. The late Hon. G. H. Sedgewick, chairman of the board, came to me some weeks ago and recommended an amendment to the act which would enable the commission to establish standards for various commodities-those standards being really fixed I think in collaboration or cooperation with the national research council

 and also giving the board power to prescribe the words under which any commodity may be described. For example, in the matter of textiles, certain manufacturers have marked their products as being wool or silk when as a matter of fact there was a very small proportion of wool or silk in them. In his opinion there was a good deal of misrepresentation. He thought it would be well that the commission be given power to establish standards and descriptions of the various commodities. That is practically all the bill means. It is an amendment to an act which was passed at the instance of the former government, and a good many clauses of

Trade and Industry Commission
which were declared ultra vires, as my hon. friend knows. This is one correction that the chairman of the tariff board thought it well to make, and I have taken his advice in presenting the bill.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Does this bill make it compulsory for people to mark the quality of the goods they sell?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: That would come under the regulations, would it not?


William Daum Euler: Anyone can make complaint in regard to any commodity along the lines suggested, and if the commission then decides so to recommend to the government, those dealing in the goods would be compelled to mark them in the manner prescribed, or to maintain certain standards. Then it becomes a matter of law and must be observed, in precisely the same way, I think, as is provided for in the Food and Drugs Act, the Meat and Canned Foods Act, and the grain act. In those acts certain standards are set up to which the manufacturers must conform, for the protection of the general public and the consumer.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Would it be possible in this bill to deal with some of the practices referred to in discussing the former bill?


William Daum Euler: I understand they apply only to Canadian goods sold in other countries. This bill, I think, would refer to goods sold in Canada and which might also of course be exported.


Thomas Reid: Will this bill apply to all commodities?


William Daum Euler: It empowers the governor in council on the advice of the commission to:
(a) prescribe standards of quality for any commodity in accordance with the terms of a report made pursuant to the provisions of this act and prescribe the manner in which such commodity shall be sold, offered for sale, or displayed for sale, and if such commodity is sold in packages or containers, the size, kind, and marking, branding or labelling of such packages or containers;
The goods must be in accordance with the grades and standards that have been established. There are of course some commodities covered under existing legislation, as already mentioned, for instance under the Food and Drugs Act or the Meat and Canned Foods Aet. Those already provided for would not, I assume, come under this bill.


Angus MacInnis: I notice in the explanatory note, the fourth line from the last, the statement "some cases seem urgent." Then it refers to the knitters of hosiery having made out a strong case for the desirability of rules

covering the marking of the fibre content of hosiery and desiring immediate action. This is a matter on which possibly the hon. member for the Yukon (Mrs. Black) could speak with more authority than I, but I am informed by people who buy and use ladies' hosiery that there seems to be something approaching a "racket"-I do not like the word-in the manufacture of ladies' hosiery; that the quality is extremely low or bad. I should like to know if this bill would apply to a case of that kind, whether the manufacturers of such goods would be compelled to produce some better quality than they do now.


William Daum Euler: The commission, of course, cannot dictate what the quality shall be, but they can say that the description must be correct. The article to which my hon. friend refers is, I believe, one of those that the commission wants to deal with. Let us take hosiery, for instance. I merely spoke of textiles, being a very modest man, but if the hosiery were marked "silk" they must contain a certain fixed proportion of silk; if they were wool that would have to be shown; if they were silk and wool that would have to be shown; if they were silk and cotton that would have to be shown, perhaps even with the proportions given. That rests within the powers of the commission. The whole purpose of the bill is to protect, the public so that goods may not be offered as something they are not.


Mrs. BLACK:: In the case of women's
hosiery the more expensive qualities are always marked, but if you get a less expensive silk stocking you are likely to have a run. I am not sure that the minister would know what a run is-


William Daum Euler: I think I would; I am a married man.


Donald Elmer Black: -except during an election. I thoroughly agree that all these articles should be marked, regardless of what the price may be.


Mr. GLADSTONE:: I should like to say a word in behalf of the ladies, in support of the hon. member for Vancouver East and the hon. member for the Yukon. The ladies have a great deal of difficulty and complain a great deal in regard to the wearing qualities of the hose manufactured and sold to-day. It must be annoying, as well as very hard on the pocketbook, to find a run in a silk stocking the first time it is worn, because after that it is totally useless. I do not know whether this discussion properly comes under this bill, but it does seem to me that some department should inquire into the question whether or

Trade and Industry Commission
not there is any deliberate effort or agreement on the part of manufacturers to refrain from producing and marketing stockings which will not run. I understand that there is a weave that is run-proof, but I believe these stockings are not readily available in our stores; the tendency is to sell stockings that will run, in order that sales may be increased. This matter should be looked into by some department of the government, in order that we may know just what is happening with regard to the production of silk stockings.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Did I understand the minister to say that the marking provision of this bill will apply only to goods for export?


William Daum Euler: No, indeed not.


Abraham Albert Heaps: To domestic and export
goods as well?


William Daum Euler: I suppose it will really cover all goods manufactured in this country, but the immediate purpose of the legislation as far as I know is to protect the Canadian consumer of these goods. In fact as far as stockings and textiles are concerned this step is taken following an investigation which was made in response to a request by the garment manufacturers' association, who complained that lines of goods were coming on the market marked in such a way as to be not representative of the actual content of the commodity, and that trade was thereby being injured.
With regard to what the hon. member for Wellington South has said, I hardly think the government can interfere and tell manufacturers that they must produce a runless stocking, or anything of that sort. I should think if they could produce such a commodity they should advertise, telling the people how good their commodity is, and thus sell more stockings. As a matter of fact I never heard that there was such a thing as a runless stocking.


Donald Elmer Black: There is a runless stocking; instead of a run you get a little pin prick of a hole, and I would rather have the run.


Major James William Coldwell: I wonder if the hon. member for Yukon or the hon. member for Wellington South could tell us the name of this runless stocking; I have a daughter.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Perhaps I should not ask this question, but I see these words:
-prescribe the manner in which such commodity shall be sold, offered for sale, or displayed for sale.
So far the discussion has been in connection with textiles. Can any other commodity be discussed, or does this deal with textiles only?


William Daum Euler: Paint is another commodity in connection with which I believe they want to take some action. One could imagine almost any number of commodities that might be concerned; my hon. friend can imagine them as well as I can.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am quite in accord with any article being thoroughly marked, as is provided by this section. One article I have in mind is the ordinary wrench. I am told by manufacturers of wrenches in this country that at the moment considerable quantities of these tools are coming from Germany. They are not marked in any way but are being imported in a roundabout manner through the United States. I am heartily in support of this section if it means that every item coming into this country, of a size which would permit it to be designated as to country of manufacture, should be so designated, whether it is made in Germany, France, or anywhere else.


William Daum Euler: I should not like there to be any misunderstanding with regard to the matter referred to by my hon. friend. If it is desired that goods coming from other countries should be marked, that would come under the Department of National Revenue. If the minister of that department brings in a recommendation to council that a certain commodity, wrenches, if you like, shall be marked with the name of the country of origin, once council adopts that recommendation it becomes law. This has nothing to do with that, however; this has to do with the fixing of standards of commodities manufactured in this country and the marking of the names by which they shall be designated.


Major James William Coldwell: Will this control the marking of goods such as socks, which are often sold as all wool when in reality they are made from shoddy?


William Daum Euler: Exactly that sort of thing.


Thomas Reid: Since we are delegating a great deal of power to the commission, I should like to ask the minister why under the penalty clause an individual can ibe thrown into gaol while a corporation cannot. It will be seen that a large corporation, through its manager, can be fined, while an individual may have to pay a fine and go to gaol as well.


William Daum Euler: The penalty provided for a corporation is a fine not exceeding $5,000, while it is not more than $1,000 in the case of an individual, so apparently some consideration is shown the individual in that way. I suppose the reason you cannot provide a gaol sentence for a corporation is that you
Pension Act Amendments

cannot throw all the members of a corporation, the president, directors and so on, into gaol. The 'bill was drawn up by a distinguished jurist, the late Judge Sedgewick; therefore I take it that it was properly framed.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: I was wondering how this squares with the provincial power over trade and industry. Does it infringe upon that power?


William Daum Euler: I would say not; I should think Judge Sedgewick would have been familiar with that point, and of course all bills must pass the Department of Justice.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved the second reading of Bill No. 62, to amend the Canada Grain Act.
Frederick George Sanderson: Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No.


Major James William Coldwell: I was going to object, because some of the members absent are much interested in this bill.


William Daum Euler: My only purpose was to get the bill to committee. It is a voluminous one, containing something like seventy amendments, and I. intend to move that it be sent to the standing committee on agriculture. I so move.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on agriculture and colonization.


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
House again in committee of the whole on Bill No. 74, an act to amend the Pension Act, respecting widows' pensions-Mr. Power.
Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health):: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to-day to proceed with either of the pension bills, but in order to comply with a request made to me the other night that one of the bills be reprinted I should like to get Bill No. 74 out of the way, and incorporated in Bill No. 6. In order to do that I am informed the proper procedure will 
be for me now to move that the order for committal of Bill No. 74 be discharged. That having been done I will move that Bill No. 6 be again referred to the committee, and when referred I will move as an amendment to Bill No. 6 that section which now appears in Bill No. 74. Following that I shall move that the committee rise and report progress. I now move that order No. 6 on the order paper, having to do with Bill No. 74, be discharged.
Motion agreed to and order discharged.



ABOLITION OF PENSION APPEAL BOARD AND EXTENSION OF TIME FOR PENSION APPLICATIONS

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, April 4, consideration in committee of Bill No. 6, to amend the Pension Act-Mr. Power-Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Charles Gavan Power: I move:
That there be incorporated in Bill No. 6, the following amendment as section 11a of the said bill, namely:
"Subsection 2 of section 32 of the Pension Act, chapter 157 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1927, as enacted by section 18 of chapter 44 of the statutes of 1936, is repealed and the following substituted therefor:
Subject as in this act otherwise provided, the widow of a member of the forces who was at the time of his death in receipt of a pension in any of classes one to eleven inclusive mentioned in schedule A of this act or who, except for the provisions of subsection 1 of section 29 of this act, would have been in receipt of a pension in one of the said classes, shall be entitled to a pension as if he had died on service whether his death was attributable to his service or not, provided that she was married to him prior to the 1st day of January, 1930, and provided also that no payment shall be made under this subsection from a date prior to the date of the coming into force of An Act to Amend the Pension Act.
I do not intend to proceed further with this bill to-day. I make the amendment only for the purpose of having the bill reprinted with this proposed section in it. The reprinted bill will be distributed during the recess, and we shall be ready to proceed when we return.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
On the order:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Hon. members will notice
we have passed certain government notices

Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act
of motion so that they may appear under government orders at the next sitting of the house. If the house will give its consent there are three of those resolutions in the name of the Minister of Finance and two in the name of the Minister of Agriculture which might be advanced a step farther so that the bills could be printed and distributed, and thus be made available immediately after the Easter recess. I think it is only a matter of adopting with regard to next day's procedure what we have followed with respect to to-day's.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The bills would not be
ready to-day, -would they?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are ready for
presentation, but not for distribution.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I suggest if
there is no objection we might take the Canadian National Railway Company securities resolution, and advance it a stage.
Mr. DUNNING moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the Canadian National Railway Company to issue securities not exceeding $25,821,707 in principal amount to provide the moneys necessary to meet capital expenditures made or to be made during the calendar year 1939 and to make provision for the retirement of capital indebtedness during the said calendar year; to authorize the governor in council to guarantee the principal, interest and sinking funds of such securities; and to authorize the making of temporary loans to the said company secured by such securities and not exceeding $25,821,707 in principal amount to enable the said company to meet such expenditures and indebtedness.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.


Charles Avery Dunning: The object of the bill
which will be based upon this resolution is to provide for the usual Canadian- National financing. It will have to do wholly with capital expenditures as authorized by this house and with making provision for the refunding of maturing indebtednes. It will be exactly the same kind of bill as has been passed by the house during the last number of years. The only advantage in passing the resolution at this time is that it will make the bill available to hon. members in its printed form when they return after the Easter vacation. There will be ample opportunity to discuss any feature of it on the second reading.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Could the minister give
the details that go to make up this amount of capital expenditure?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have not before me
at the moment the amount which will be involved for refunding and the amount which will be involved for capital expenditures. I shall be ready with that information at the next stage of the bill.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin):: Is the Montreal
terminal included in this?


Charles Avery Dunning: Any capital expenditure
on the Montreal terminal will be part of this, but that again is in the railway budget.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Dunning thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 85, respecting Canadian National Railways Financing and Guarantee Act, 1939.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



FARMERS' CREDITORS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend The Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934, as amended by chapter 20 of the statutes of 1935 and by chapter 47 of the statutes of 1938, to provide that proposals for a composition, extension of time or scheme of arrangement made by farmers under the said act as amended may be received in the province of Manitoba after June 30, 1939.
' Mr. MacINNIS:	I think a brief explanation of this resolution would be in order.
Charles Avery Dunning: I intended to give the
explanation when we were in committee, but it can be given now just' as well.
It will be remembered that a year ago this house agreed on certain amendments to the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, among the most important of which was an amendment which gave power to the government to terminate the operation of that act in any province. It will be remembered that the Senate did not agree with the House of Commons on the amendments, and the bill as it was returned from the Senate was amended bringing to a close the operation of the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act in all provinces except Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. In the case of Manitoba the Senate made the terminating date June 30, 1939. and in the case of Saskatchewan and Alberta the date was left open. During the year, particularly recently, the government has received representations from Manitoba, not-
Gold Clause Obligations

ably from the legislature, I believe by unanimous resolution, requesting that in view of the conditions prevailing in the province as the result of last year's crop, the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act should be continued in Manitoba on the same basis as it is being continued in Saskatchewan and Alberta. The object of the bill to be founded on this resolution is to comply with this request. It will be remembered that a year ago the Commons and Senate disagreed, and, following the procedure provided for such cases, it was necessary to hold a conference. I doubt very much whether the result of that conference was wholly satisfactory to the House of Commons, but an agreement was reached on the legislation. We are now proposing to make an effort to put Manitoba in the same position as Saskatchewan and Alberta because of the parallel conditions which exist.


Mr. BARBER:: Has it expired in British
Columbia?


Charles Avery Dunning: I made an error there.
The Senate amendment provided a termination in June next of the provisions of the act as far as British Columbia is concerned.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Will this bill have any
effect whatever on the operations of the act outside of Manitoba, by inference or otherwise?


Charles Avery Dunning: No effect whatever.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It will be limited entirely to Manitoba?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Dunning thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 86, to amend the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



GOLD CLAUSE OBLIGATIONS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to repeal the Gold Clauses Act 1937, and to provide that obligations payable in gold or gold coin or in an amount of money measured thereby may be discharged by payment of the nominal or face amount thereof.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Charles Avery Dunning: The object of the bill to be based on this resolution is to accomplish what we thought we had accomplished by the Gold Clauses Act of 1937. Since that act was passed, there have been decisions of the privy council which have clarified the position materially. We desire that there shall be no doubt as to what was intended by the legislation of 1937. That is to say, that obligations payable in gold or in gold coin, or in an amount of money measured by that, may be discharged by the payment of the nominal or face amount of the obligation. I can deal with the matter more fully and with the legal technicalities on the second reading of the bill. The object is to do simply what we intended to do in 1937. It is not a change of policy or a change of intention in any way. It is just that decisions which have been rendered by the highest court in the commonwealth make it necessary for us to change the act in order to carry out our intention.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Would the minister explain a little more fully the decision and its effect? What was wrong with the existing legislation?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is highly technical,
and I frankly confess that I have not my material before me to-day. I do not desire to press the resolution on the house to-day if there is doubt in anyone's mind regarding it. I shall be fully armed on the second reading. I admit that I should have had the information here, but I doubt if I would fully understand all its implications myself. On the second reading, however, I can convey to the house what the lords of the privy council had to say.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Very well.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Dunning thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 87, to repeal the Gold Clauses Act, 1937.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



DAIRYING INDUSTRY


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to encourage the improvement of cheese and cheese factories, (a) by grants in aid of the construction, reconstruction and equipment of factories; (b) by grants in aid of insulating

Dairying Industry-Cheese
and refrigerating factory buildings and the purchase of certain equipment; (c) by grants for high grade cheese, out of moneys appropriated by parliament.
Hugh Alexander Stewart: Explain.


James Garfield Gardiner: The bill to be based on this resolution purports to do three things. In the first place it provides for grants to cheese factories for the purpose of improving their equipment. We are given to understand that exception is taken at the present time, particularly in the British market, not particularly to the quality or standard of our cheese, but to its form. I am told that in Britain they very much prefer the form of cheese which they make there, which is of a higher type and not so broad as the type of cheese we are turning out in Canada. In order to encourage changing from our forms to the form they desire in Britain, we are proposing to pay half the cost of making the change. That will not involve a very considerable amount of money, probably twenty to thirty thousand dollars all told.
The second proposal in the bill is in connection with the factories and is that where two or more factories or organizations that have a complete factory get together and agree to construct one factory in place of those now operating, in order to lower the costs of production over a certain area and to put in equipment which is more up to date and more in conformity with that used in some of the countries that are competing with us, the government is prepared to assist in the cost of making the change in that particular locality.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: Up to what per cent?


James Garfield Gardiner: Up to fifty per cent but not more.


William Earl Rowe: Fifty per cent of the cost of the general improvements?


James Garfield Gardiner: No; fifty per cent of the cost of the materials entering into the reconstruction.
The third proposal in the bill is that we pay a premium of two cents on the higher grade of cheese for the purpose of encouraging the production of a higher standard of cheese.


William Earl Rowe: May I ask the minister if that two cent bonus will be paid on export cheese only or on all cheese?


James Garfield Gardiner: The two cents will be paid on all cheese of the top grade, but top grade only.
Motion agreed to and the house went into
committee. Mr. Sanderson in the chair.


Mr. SENN:: When the minister was making his explanation before we went into committee, he said that the cost of making changes in connection with presses to make the new forms for cheese would amount to $30,000. That means, I assume, that the whole expenditure would amount to that sum.


James Garfield Gardiner: It is estimated that the outside cost would be, over the whole area, $30,000 or $10,000.


David Spence: All over Canada?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, for that purpose. It is just a matter of changing the rings and forms.


Mark Cecil Senn: Could the minister give us an idea of the cost of a single installation of these new presses, say in a factory with an output of sixty or seventy tons a year?


James Garfield Gardiner: Just at the moment I could not give that information, but I will see that it is brought down before the 'bill is considered. .


Mark Cecil Senn: There is another question. The resolution states that there should be grants in aid of not only the improvement of cheese factories, but also the construction and reconstruction of refrigerators, insulation and so-on. Would the minister state whether those factories will have to build according to specifications approved Iby the federal department, and will all necessary equipment have to be installed according to specifications? If so, where will the specifications come from and how are they to be laid down? Could the minister give us some information generally with regard to these matters?


James Garfield Gardiner: Section 3 of the bill, which I have before me, provides that the governor in council may grant, out of moneys appropriated by parliament for the purpose, a sum not exceeding fifty per centum of the amount actually expended for new material, new equipment and labour utilized in constructing, reconstructing and equipping those cheese factories which are eligible for a subsidy under this act or the regulations. Section 7 provides that the governor in council may make regulations, and these regulations will cover the points that have been raised.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the bill refer only to factories now in operation?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes, only the replacement of factories now in operation or the putting in of curing rooms in factories now in operation.


Mr. THOMPSON:: Will the amalgamating of these factories be left to the option of the
Dairying Industry-Cheese

owners of the factories, or will any pressure be brought to bear by the government to have them do this?


James Garfield Gardiner: I do not assume that any pressure will be brought to bear by the government. Of course the government would give some assistance in an advisory capacity and would lay down regulations as to what the nature of the construction would have to be in order to come within the terms of the legislation.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: In regard to factories in eastern Ontario, with which I am most familiar, the great difficulty with regard to amalgamation is that our dairies are small. As a rule our farmers have not more than fifteen, twenty or twenty-five cows, and if the factories are amalgamated they would have to draw their milk for too great distances. If we amalgamate our factories and the areas become too large, the cost of drawing milk will be too great. That is the great difficulty in eastern Ontario, and that is why I ask if it will be left to the discretion of the owners of these factories to decide whether amalgamation would be convenient or whether it would pay them to join the factories together.


James Garfield Gardiner: It will be left entirely to their discretion as to whether that should be done. This is simply a means of persuading them to do it.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: Exactly.


William Earl Rowe: It seems
difficult to arrive at an estimate of twenty or thirty thousand dollars with relation to the whole dominion.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member means that he does not think that sum would cover the cost? Oh, no, thirty or forty thousand dollars would not cover all we are talking about; it would cover simply the changing of the rings for the forms for making the cheese, and that part of the equipment. The whole amount required for all we are talking about is estimated at about a quarter of a million dollars.


William Earl Rowe: This seems an extraordinary bill to add to the bonus- the opportunitjr for any and all cheese factories to start and remodel their plants, and almost to tear them down if they wish to rebuild them, with the government paying for the labour. I assume from the clause which the minister has read that it leaves a latitude wide enough to pay for all sorts of work so far as reconstruction of the cheese factories is concerned. I hope the minister has made some provision that the two cent bonus will be
(Mr. Thompson.]
returned to the farmer and to the producer, if the cheese factory owners are to have an opportunity to remodel their plants in many instances where they are more or less obsolescent. I agree with the principle behind subsidies and bonuses for high-grade export products, but I have my doubts as to the effect of the wide and more or less reckless and haphazard policy which is being brought down at the present time. In one bill it not only gives us a two cent bonus, but allows every cheese factory in Canada to rebuild itself and receive from the dominion treasury dollar for dollar expended.


James Garfield Gardiner: I might explain the
matter in this way. The safeguard is the one mentioned by the hon. member for Lanark, that it is available only to cheese factories where there is amalgamation, and these amalgamations would come in only very few instances.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The clause does not
say so.


William Earl Rowe: The clause which the minister read did not mention that it was confined to amalgamations.


James Garfield Gardiner: Oh, yes, it says that there must be two or more of them amalgamated before the provision applies.


William Earl Rowe: Even so,
I think it is a very wide and sweeping bill. It seems to me that it benefits the cheese manufacturer more than it does the cheese industry at large. The whole principle of bonuses as suggested by the minister's recent references tends, perhaps, to cover a larger area and serve a smaller national purpose so far as getting high-class export products on the market, and I believe it will cost the treasury of this dominion colossal sums and will not serve the purpose which is intended.


David Spence: But look at the votes it will get.


James Garfield Gardiner: I think these matters
will be more properly discussed when we have the bill before the house. If hon. members will allow the resolution to go forward, the matter can be discussed fully at that time.


Mark Cecil Senn: I do not want to delay the matter at all, but this is a very important bill; we have not had much chance to make a study of it, and I think that the minister might agree to, let the resolution stand.


James Garfield Gardiner: If I may be permitted to make Pie suggestion, I believe it will be much easier to study the bill if the committee will permit the legislation to go past the

Criminal Code
resolution stage. The bill is printed and copies can be had to-morrow morning by any who desire to get them. It can be studied during the recess and hon. members may be prepared to discuss it when they come back.


Mark Cecil Senn: Very well.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Gardiner thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 88, to encourage the improvement of cheese and cheese factories.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to encourage the cooperative marketing of any kind of grain, other than wheat, and of other agricultural products defined in the act, by guaranteeing the initial payment of cooperative associations, as in the act defined, with provision also for the appointment and remuneration of officers, clerks and employees necessary for the administration of the act.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Gardiner thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 89, to assist and encourage cooperative marketing of agricultural products.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The house might like to have the other resolution, so as to have the other bill.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Oh, I think we have done pretty well to-day.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think hon. members are to be congratulated on the progress made to-day.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The government will now have something to inform the Olobe and Mail to be printed in that blank space.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order, until Tuesday, April 11.
Tuesday, April 11, 1939