1939-04-12

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 92, respecting official secrets.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, the law at present in force in Canada dealing with official secrets is The Official Secrets Act. which is an imperial act. This act, passed in 1911, is in its terms made applicable to and has been the law of Canada. Since it was passed amendments have been made, more particularly by the Official Secrets Act of 1920, -which is not applicable to Canada. The purpose of the bill is to consolidate the two acts and, by an act of the parliament of Canada, make them the law of this country.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)	]

Mr. LACOMBE:: 1.	In March, 1938, what was the general price list of agricultural implements as regards the following machines: tractors, ploughs, seeders, binders with closed gear boxes and binders with open gear boxes?
2.	What was the price list for similar agricultural machines in March, 1939?
3.	Since November, 1938, have agricultural implement manufacturers reduced their general price list as regards any of the machines above enumerated ?
4.	If so, what companies?
5.	What is the extent of the reductions on each of these agricultural machines?


Mr. EULER:: There are no government records from which the information requested can be supplied.
27ue
Questions


NATIONAL DEFENCE-TRANSFER OF LAND IN QUEBEC CITY
Mr. WALSH:: 1.	Has any property in Quebec city been transferred from the national battlefields commission to the Department of National Defence?
2.	If so, for what purpose is it proposed that the land so transferred shall be used by the said department?
3.	Where is such land located?
4.	What is the extent of the area of land so transferred?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: 1.	No formal transfer, but agreement has been reached.
2.	As site for an extension to the Quebec armouries.
3.	To the south of the present armoury.
4.	Three hundred feet long by 58 feet wide.


LACHINE, QUE., VOLUNTEER DEFENCE UNIT
Mr. MALLETTE:: 1.	Has the government received a recommendation from the municipal council of the city of Lachine in favour of the organization of a volunteer defence unit in that city?
2.	If so, what has been done in the matter?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: 1.	Yes.
2.	The matter is under consideration.


REVISION OF STATUTES OF CANADA
Mr. GRAYDON:: Will the government undertake at an early date the consolidation and revision of the statutes of Canada?


Ernest Lapointe: The
matter has not been considered.


DISTRIBUTION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS-COMMISSIONER'S REPORT
Mr. PELLETIER:: What action, if any, has been taken by the Department of Labour as a result of the report of commissioner F. A. McGregor, with respect to the distribution of tobacco products?


Mr. ROGERS:: The report and evidence were remitted in September, 1938, to the Attorney General of Alberta, who instituted proceedings against several tobacco manufacturers and wholesalers. The charges are now being heard in preliminary court proceedings in Alberta.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. MARSHALL:: 1. What government was responsible for the formation of the international congress of leisure time and recreation?

2.	When did Canada first participate in these annual conferences?
3.	What has been the total cost to Canada to date?
4.	Who represented Canada at the third world congress held at Rome, from June 26 to July 3, 1938?
5.	Has a report been submitted to the Secretary of State, and will this report be tabled ?
6.	Where, and when, will the world conference be held this year, and will Canada be represented ?
7.	Has the conference decided yet what individuals must have before they can enjoy leisure ?


Mr. RINFRET:: Return tabled.


ROYAL VISIT TO CANADA-JAPANESE DECORATIONS
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Do any of the government contracts, now made or for which tenders are now under consideration, for the flags and bunting to be used as decorations during the prospective visit of Their Majesties, include flags, bunting or other material of Japanese' manufacture?
2.	If any Japanese manufactures are included in said contracts, what are the quantities and prices of such Japanese manufactures?


CAMPBELLTON, N.B., ROCK CRUSHING PROJECT
Mr. BROOKS:: 1.	How many inspectors, foremen and other workmen are engaged in connection with the work now going on as a relief project at Campbellton, New Brunswick?
2.	What are the names of each, and their remuneration per hour?
3.	Is there any record being kept of the cost per yard of this fill?
4.	What amount of money has been spent to date?


Norman McLeod Rogers: I should like to give a supplementary reply to the question in the name of the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks) answered at page 634 of Hansard. As this supplementary answer contains a long list of names, with the consent of the house I would ask that it be tabled as an order for return.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. BLACKMORE:: For a return showing the names, periods of service in the great war, and present residential addresses of all persons, male and female, receiving pensions under the provisions of the Pension Act, 1919.


Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health):: A few days ago I indicated to my hon. friend that to provide the information asked for in one part of his motion, namely, the periods of service in the great war of all persons now receiving pensions, would involve a great deal of labour, so much so that it would be almost impossible to comply with the order of the house. It would

Motions for Papers
involve looking over 100,000 files. With respect to the remainder of the motion, it is questionable whether a return showing the names and addresses of all persons receiving pensions should be brought down to this house. During the past few years this question has been answered 'both negatively and affirmatively. On a number of occasions the Minister of Pensions and National Health has stated that it was not in the public interest that this information should be furnished. In 1933 a return was moved for which took nearly a year to complete and which was brought down in the house in .1934. I have a report from the officers of the department to the effect that this return took seven months to prepare and cost $7,388.60.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.


Charles Gavan Power: Personally I have no views one way or the other, because it makes very little difference to me. In view of the opinions which have been expressed, I should prefer to leave the matter to the house.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Dropped.


Charles Gavan Power: In order to bring on a vote, should my hon. friend wish that, I will state now that I should not like to give the information.
Motion dropped.



NAVAL SERVICE REGULATIONS

Mr. MacNEIL:: For a copy of the Naval Discipline Act, the King's Regulations and Admiralty Instructions, and the Naval Discipline (Dominion Naval Forces) Act, 1911, as amended to date and applicable to Canada, under sections 45 and 46 of the Naval Service Act.



ESQUIMALT AND HALIFAX NAVAL BASES

Charles Grant MacNeil: For a copy of all agreements between the government of Canada and the government of Great Britain with respect to the maintenance and defence of naval bases at Esquimalt and Halifax for the purposes of the royal navy in time of war.



ESCUMINAC, QUE., PUBLIC WORKS

Mr. WALSH:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, reports, memoranda and other documents relating to the construction and/or maintenance of public works in the municipality of Escuminac, Bonaventure county, Quebec, since January 1, 1938.



GRASS COVE, N.S., WHARF

Mr. BROOKS:: For a return showing, in detail, all moneys expended at Grass Cove wharf, Victoria county,
Nova Scotia, during the calendar year 1938, including therein the names of foremen and workmen employed and the respective amounts paid to each, and the names of all persons from whom materials were purchased and the respective amounts paid to each.



IONA, N.S., WHARF

Alfred Johnson Brooks: For a return showing, in detail, all moneys expended at Iona wharf, Victoria county, Nova Scotia, during the calendar year 1938, including therein the names of foremen and workmen employed and the respective amounts paid to each, and the names of all persons from whom materials were purchased and the respective amounts paid to each.



QUORN, ONT., POSTMASTERSHIP

Mr. TUSTIN:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, memoranda and other documents in the possession of the government relating to the appointment of a new postmaster at Quom, Ontario.
TORONTO POST OFFICE BUILDING	.


Mr. CHURCH:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, orders in council, reports of officials and other documents exchanged between the government and any other person or persons regarding the erection of a new post office building at Fleet and Bay streets, Toronto, along with a statement showing the price for the land acquired, and what has been spent on it to date; also a copy of all papers and correspondence regarding the stopping of the work, as well as a copy of all correspondence with the city of Toronto and the Toronto harbour commission in relation thereto.



COLLINS BAY PENITENTIARY-A. B. SMITH

Mr. STEWART:: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, recommendations and other documents in the possession of the department relating to the dismissal and/or reinstatement of A. B. Smith, formerly a guard at the Collins Bay penitentiary.



OAK POINT, N.B., WHARF

Gordon Graydon: For a return showing the cost of all material used in repair of the wharf at Oak Point, Northumberland county, New Brunswick; to whom the same was paid; and the complete payroll for all employees engaged on such work in the year 1938.



NATIONAL HARBOURS BOARD-R. B. SALTER

Mr. HOMUTH:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the chairman of the national harbours board and R. B. Salter, the ex-acting chief of police of the national harbours board at Halifax between December 3, 1937, and March 1, 1939, and any other letters between members of the present government and any other persons, relating to the said R. B. Salter.
Loan of $750,000,000



AIR MAIL SERVICES


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. A. MARSH (Hamilton West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Postmaster General (Mr. Mc-Larty). In substance this question is the same as the one I asked about seven weeks ago. Does the Postmaster General contemplate the making of proper provision for trans-Canada air mail service between the air ports of Hamilton and Malton? We are not getting very good service at the moment.


Hon. N. A. McLARTY (Postmaster General):: The hon. member had the same question on the order paper some time ago, at which time the reply was made that the Post Office Department was giving consideration to the extension of all air mail services. I do not know that I can now add anything more definite to that answer.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. R. J. MANION (Leader of the Opposition):: I should like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) if he is ready to advise the house as to the probable date of bringing down the budget.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): I cannot be very definite, but I may tell my hon. friend that I am endeavouring to be ready for April 20. In view of some of the difficulties, I would not like that to be regarded as a definite undertaking.



LOAN OF $750,000,000 TO MEET LOANS OR OBLIGATIONS, TO PURCHASE UNMATURED SECURITIES, AND FOR GENERAL PURPOSES

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Tuesday, April 11, consideration in committee of the following proposed resolution-Mr. Dunning-Mr. Sanderson in the chair:
That the governor in council be authorized to raise by way of loan under the Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act, 1931, an amount not to exceed in the whole the sum of seven hundred and fifty million dollars for paying or redeeming the whole or any portion of loans or obligations of Canada, and also for purchasing and withdrawing from circulation unmatured securities of Canada, and for public works and general purposes.
John Horne Blackmore: Mr. Chairman, during the past few days when this resolution has come before the committee
[Mr. Homuth.l
there has been a good deal of opposition offered to it from my group. We wish to let tt be known that we have no desire to block or delay in any way the proceedings of the house, but we are strongly opposed to any measure which tends to thrust this country further into debt. We believe there is a great deal of truth in the maxim that you cannot borrow yourself out of debt or tax yourself into prosperity. Such measures as the one now proposed have thrust the country into debt by borrowing and will be followed by taxing the country, a procedure which certainly cannot bring prosperity. We want to be out of debt, and we all want prosperity.
I just wish to say to the minister that we do not propose to continue our opposition to this measure any further at this stage. We would rather wait for the second reading of the bill and talk about it at that stage; but in all fairness to everyone concerned we wish to let it be known that we propose to oppose the measure when it comes before the house for second reading. There are several reasons why we intend to do so, and I shall outline them briefly.
In the first place the national debt is already so great that it is ruining the country. It is resulting in a high cost of living which is rapidly making existence for the great majority of the Canadian people next to impossible. In addition, a tax structure is being developed which is growing and tending in the same direction, and we feel that unless something is done to prevent further development along this line it will not be long before this dominion will become uninhabitable for the majority of the people at present in it. It is easy enough to be optimistic, but there is such a thing as being too optimistic about certain matters. We would like to point out again to all the members of the house something which they all know and of which we are aware, and that is that we are to-day in a critical situation in Canada. The statements by the mayors who are at present meeting in Ottawa constitute, I think, evidence sufficient to support my statement. I do not propose to detail what they have said; but they are the men who are out on the firing line; they know just what kind of conditions confront the municipalities throughout this country, and almost to a man they are declaring that the municipalities can no longer stand the pressure. That, I submit, should be sufficient evidence that a change must come.
Then there is a cutting off of relief, or a tendency in that direction, which is alarming people terribly. I think there are very few people in Canada who would not go to work if they could find work, but a great number

Loan of $750,000,000
of people are at their wits' end to know what they are going to do when their relief is cut off, as is now being threatened. That is bad all the way round. I do not propose to go into detail concerning it because that would not be in order at the present time.
The unemployment situation also continues. Again I do not propose to discuss that question except to point out that we have not yet even commenced to find a solution for unemployment in this country.
We have among our agriculturists a situation which, in my judgment, is genuinely serious. Again I do not wish to discuss that now in any detail, but I would point out that the measures which the government is wisely taking this year to assist agriculture are a strong indication that the government and the country behind them realize that all is not by any means well with the agricultural industry of this dominion.
Virtually every measure which is proposed in the house to-day, practically every measure on the order paper, calls for the expenditure of money. If this money is to be raised by taxation, then the whole situation is indeed alarming; it should fill anyone with misgiving. Naturally I support and favour every measure for the amelioration of the condition of the agriculturists. I would commend the government for every one of those measures; they are forward looking. But the question of where the money is coming from is a very serious one which is disturbing everyone throughout the country, and it indicates that some new means of getting money should certainly be forthcoming if there is any possibility of finding some means that does not entail borrowing.
Another matter to which I wish to refer casually, in passing, is the danger of war. Everyone in the house must realize that if a war broke out, involving Canada to any such degree as she was involved in the last war and entailing any such financial sacrifices as Canada underwent in the last war, the debt structure of this country would be utterly insupportable. The other night the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Mackenzie) gave us I think considerable encouragement when he indicated that if war did break out, drastic changes in our financial set-up would immediately be made. What he had in mind, of course, he merely hinted at. It is far more serious to attempt any new method of financial management while a war is on than during peace-time. If, therefore, some drastic change in the financial management of the country is possible, we believe that the change ought to be made now while we are at peace, so that we can acquire a little bit of experience with it before we are plunged into the strain of war.
There is one other matter which I shall mention, and then I shall have said all I propose to say at this time. There are great financial and monetary experiences which men have gone through in the past, as a result of which a good deal has been learned about monetary theory. By a careful examination of these great experiments I feel certain that much could be learned which might be applied in the formulation of, shall I say, a policy or a method of procedure which might be adopted with advantage in this great new country-a new policy or a policy involving elements which we are not now applying in our financial system. I shall refer briefly to two of these.
The first one is the Bradbury experience in England. Most members of the house will remember having seen the Bradburys, the treasury notes of England. That was a paper currency issued by the national treasury to finance the great war. It replaced the gold circulation of the country. It bore the strain of the war superbly. There is abundant evidence to prove that it did not cause inflation. Virtually it entirely displaced gold in the country. What was the backing of that paper currency? Under what conditions and why was it issued? Could something of the kind be used in Canada? I do not propose to enter in detail upon a discussion of this experiment, but I commend it to the careful consideration of all governments in the world to-day. At least one man whose judgment I regard as well worthy of respect, namely William A. Shaw, editor of The Calendar of Treasury Books and Papers, looks upon the "Bradbury" as the greatest monetary discovery among men. Elements are there which, I submit, should be considered with great care.
I turn from that experiment to one associated with the island of Guernsey. In many places little is known about it. In 1815 the Guernsey island "States" issued 3,000 one pound notes, and with them constructed a market house. We know that the issue of that money cost no interest and entailed no debt; on the other hand it produced an astonishingly salutary effect upon the economic life of the island. I shall talk more about this at some future time, but for to-day I simply say that apparently the experiment was an unqualified success. As evidence of that we have the opinion of no less a thinker on monetary affairs than Sir Norman Angell, whose statement is to be found on page 271 of his book, the Story of Money, a copy of which is in the library. So successful was this experiment that when the island was at the height of success, 55,000 one pound notes were in circulation in a triangular area only 9J miles long by 51-miles wide. Altogether, we are told, 80,000 one pound notes were put into circulation
Loan of $750,000,000


Mr. DUNNING:: Not so much as that.


Mr. HEAPS:: I am speaking from memoiy and the minister can correct me if I am mistaken. Of that amount, I believe that about $38,000,000 was utilized for public *works. The balance may have gone back into the consolidated revenue fund and I do not know whether it was used or not. What I am tr3'ing to get at is this. Five years ago under the Conservative regime the government issued new currency to the extent I have just mentioned and no ill effects ensued from that departure in finance. I am wondering whether the present Minister of Finance is more conservative than the former Conservative minister. I should like to know why there is any objection now on the part of the Department of Finance to following the example of the former government in issuing new currency for the purpose of creating public works which

Loan oj $750,000;000
would be entirely free from debt. Can the minister state any objection that the department has to a policy of that kind?


Charles Avery Dunning: Let me indicate to my hon. friend exactly what happened and why. The period to which he refers was close to the time of transition from the old Finance Act to the Bank of Canada legislation. Under the old Finance Act a large amount of currency was outstanding based upon securities owned by the chartered banks but held at that time by the Minister of Finance as security for the extra currency issued under the old law. In making arrangements for the coming into being of the Bank of Canada it was necessary for the government of the day to provide for the absolute retirement by the banks of currency which was outstanding under the terms of the old Finance Act. There was, therefore, an interregnum which it was necessary to provide for in order to ensure that a sufficient volume of currency should be in existence to carry on and to meet the commercial needs of the country.
That issue was made in the manner to which my hon. friend refers. It was followed soon after by retirement out of circulation of all the money which had been in circulation through the medium of the chartered banks under the provisions of the old Finance Act, so that there was an incoming of new money, dominion government notes, which subsequently became Bank of Canada notes, and an outgoing of chartered bank notes to the extent that the chartered banks had borrowed from the Minister of Finance under the old Finance Act. I trust I have made that clear.
There may have been and probably was a greater amount of dominion notes issued at that time than was sufficient to cover the amount outstanding under the terms of the old Finance Act, and to that extent, therefore, there was an increase in the amount of money in existence. I would not attempt to put a limit on the figure, speaking from memory; I would say, probably ten, twelve, or fifteen millions. Since the Bank of Canada came into being, we have been working under a new and regularized system with respect to the volume of currency in existence. Formerly, under the old Finance Act, it could be moved up and down depending upon the necessities of the chartered banks, developed through their borrowings under the Finance Act from the Minister of Finance. That was in addition to the normal currency-issuing powers of the chartered banks under the Bank Act. Now we have a condition, under the Bank of Canada Act, whereby the Bank of Canada can, as in fact it does at all times, control the volume of currency in existence. I would point out to my hon. friend that this involves
a continuous study, by the bank and by its expert officers, of the question of how much currency should be in existence in Canada from day to day, from week to week, and from month to month.
The proof that the bank discharges this function is found in the figures which I gave last year indicating the degree to which expansion of our currency issue had taken place since the Bank of Canada was instituted.
I gave the information as demonstrating the policy of the bank and the policy of the government to be what I then described, and confirm to-day, as an expansionist policy of easy money. I deliberately avoided the use of the word "inflation" because of the unfortunate meaning which is attached to that word.
I prefer to use the word "expansionist" because, from the institution of the Bank of Canada to the present time, from that day forward, there has been an expansion of the volume of Bank of Canada currency in circulation in Canada, and a consequent increase in the cash reserves of the bank system.
My hon. friend asks why it would not be good to add twenty-five, or fifty, or one hundred millions more. My answer is that the questjpn of how much is constantly under study. It is part of the necessary function of the currency-controlling body constantly to study that question, and if within the next year it is apparent that more currency is desirable in order to assist in maintaining a reasonable equilibrium in the business of the country that currency will be issued. To ask me to-day whether there ought to be twenty-five millions more than there is, or even to ask the governor of the bank whether there ought to be twenty-five millions more, is a question that does not permit of a categorical answer.
I know I should not refer to the proceedings of a committee, but I thought I had under my hand a copy of the report of the proceedings of the standing committee on banking and commerce in which the governor of the Bank of Canada gave a review of the relative expansion of currencies in a number of countries including Canada and placed on the record a table that showed the relative degree to which expansion or the opposite had taken place. I am sorry I have not a copy of the document in question, but I do wish to say how much I appreciate the extent to which members of the banking and commerce committee, and others who are not members but who attend, are taking a real interest in the evidence being given there by the expert officers of the bank and of the department with respect to monetary matters.
I do not speak in any sense derogatory of this chamber when I say that matters of such
Loan of $750,000,000

great complexity can be much more effectively gone into in a committee where examination of witnesses is possible and where witnesses can produce the kind of basic information which is contained in every number of the report of the proceedings of the banking and commerce committee for the current session. I think that in referring the Bank of Canada report to that committee of the house we have taken a forward step in conveying, not only to members of this house but to the public, an understanding of the more intricate questions of finance, currency, money and credit. And I would urge that we do not attempt here to postulate conclusions upon matters which are often entangled with a great many other matters of which we may not have immediate cognizance, but that the fullest use be made of the present sittings of the committee on banking and commerce to get on record the views of everyone. My hon. friends in the far corner opposite will, I know, get their views on record, and will also, as they have done at the meetings up to now, examine the officers of the bank. They can examine me if they want to, although the governor of the bank and the deputy minister of finance are much closer to the detailed questions of day-to-day administration than any minister can possibly be.
The hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) spoke of optimism as being dangerous. Perhaps so, but I can tell him that any man holding my position who had not a strong streak of optimism in his nature would not occupy the position long. But of course it must be optimism qualified by caution. I do not subscribe to the "whispers of death" attitude, neither do I subscribe to the doctrine : "All is well; do not listen to any criticism." I believe the position I have indicated to be the properly balanced approach to our problems, especially in this critical time.
Because I do not understand the theories of my Social Credit friends, because I cannot see how their theories can possibly work in a practical way, I do not say that they should not ventilate them and have them analysed. I think they might adopt very fairly the attitude I have tried to train myself to adopt in regard to these questions. Not a day passes on which from five to ten men somewhere in Canada who believe they have a solution for Canada's economic problems do not write to me about their ideas. Some of these are so wide of the mark as to involve a negative answer immediately. But I have tried to have every one of them examined critically and analysed carefully in order that so far as our officers are concerned they

may not miss any idea which might promise economic improvement for the people of Canada.


Mr. LANDERYOU:: We surely need it.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend says,
"we surely need it." I say to him that the officials who are responsible for the whole management of Canada's financial policies and the financial operation of the Bank of Canada are among the best in the world, his opinion to the contrary notwithstanding.


John Charles Landeryou: From whose point of
view? Ask the unemployed.


Charles Avery Dunning: I will say this for them: Unlike my hon. friend these officials acknowledge that they need all the information that is available. My hon. friend takes the ground that he has it all and he knows it all. I am thankful that my officials do not take that viewpoint. Any man who did would not qualify as an official of the Department of Finance or of the Bank of Canada.


John Charles Landeryou: A legalized racket,
that is all.
Mr. HANSON. The hon. gentleman got his financial education in the kitchen.


Charles Avery Dunning: May I thank the leader
of the Social Credit group for his intimation that it is not intended to debate this resolution further. Of course that in no way detracts from his right, or that of any of his followers, to speak on the second reading of the bill. I think it is desirable to get along. I merely rose to answer the question of the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Heaps).


Mr. J. S. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: I have some observations which I believe would be of value in the discussion of this resolution and the bill which will follow it, but my present hoarseness will unquestionably .prevent my giving voice to them. I should like the minister to concede that when the bill comes along I may have an opportunity of saying what I should like to say now.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


John Charles Landeryou: Along the line of the question asked by the hon. member for Winnipeg North, I understand the minister claims that the amount of bank currency has been increased in Canada. Has it been increased to meet the needs of consumers or the needs of the chartered banks?


Charles Avery Dunning: The needs of the banks in this connection never are a question as far as the Bank of Canada is concerned. The needs of the whole economic community of

Supply-Finance-H ousing
Canada, studied day by day and week by week, constitute the index upon which the Bank of Canada bases its action.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Dunning thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 93, to authorize the raising, by way of loan, of certain sums of money for the public service.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, March 13, consideration in committee of the following proposed resolution-Mr. Rogers-Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
That it is expedient to introduce a measure for the purpose of promoting and assisting in the training of unemployed young people to fit them for gainful employment in Canada and, for such purpose, to appropriate sums aggregating four million five hundred thousand dollars to be expended over a period of three years beginning with the fiscal year ending the 31st March, 1940. The application of the act and the payments made thereunder to be conditional upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed upon with the several provinces.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of Labour): The purpose of the bill to be based upon this resolution is set out accurately in the resolution itself. Briefly stated, the purpose is to ensure continuity over a period of three years for the training given to unemployed young people in cooperation with the provinces. During the past two years, under the Unemployment and Agricultural Assistance Act, appropriations have been made for a similar purpose. In the fiscal year 1937-38 the appropriation was $1,000,000. In the following year the new appropriation was $1,500,000. In the proposed legislation it is intended to fix the annual appropriation at $1,500,000 and to extend that for a period of three years. It has been submitted to us by the provinces that continuity of the training program assured in this way will permit of much greater efficiency and more satisfactory coordination of the various youth training plans.
If it meets with the approval of hon. members, I intend to reserve any extended remarks of mine until second reading of the bill, at which time there will be debate upon the principle of the measure. The discussion as to details might be reserved until we reach the committee stage.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Rogers thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 94, to provide for the training of young people to fit them for gainful employment.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. SUPPLY
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Jf9. Housing branch, $70,610.
Mr. MARSHALL:: Would the minister
explain the increase in the vote?
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): This is one of the few branches of the Department of Finance I am gratified to see growing, because its growth follows and corresponds with the increase in the volume of National Housing Act loans and home improvement act loans. The increase is due entirely to the larger staff made necessary by expansion of the work of the branch in the manner I have just indicated.


James Alexander Marshall: Most of it is for temporary assistance, is it not?


Charles Avery Dunning: In the development of an entirely new branch, a great many of the employees are necessarily on a temporary basis.


Mr. MacINNIS:: During the present winter I believe the director of housing visited Vancouver and investigated a number of complaints with respect to the quality of materials used in the construction of many of the houses built under the housing act. Has the minister had a report from the director as to what he found, and can he make some explanation to the committee?


Charles Avery Dunning: I had such a report,
although it is not before me at the moment, and I hesitate to speak from memory with regard to it. But when complaints are made that specifications authorized by the department have not in certain particulars been properly followed, we try to investigate, and to put on the right track whoever may be on the wrong track. I remember that such a situation did develop in Vancouver. I shall be pleased to get a copy of the report and let the hon. member see it. I remember distinctly, however, that the conditions complained of have been definitely ironed out.
This qualifying remark I should like to make: There are two parties other than the government definitely interested in seeing to it that specifications are followed. One is the owner of the house, the man who will own and live in it, and the other is the mortgagee
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who is advancing the major part of the necessary funds. It is therefore only on rare occasions that we. are appealed to with respect to living up to specifications, because the persons affected have a sufficiently keen interest to ensure a proper procedure in that regard. It is natural that in attending to their own interests they will see that specifications are adhered to. I shall be pleased to get the information for the hon. member.


Angus MacInnis: There were complaints of two kinds. The minister lias referred to one of them, and the other, concerning which I had some correspondence, was that loans under the act were very hard to get, except in the best residential sections of the city. The minister has answered my first complaint as far as he can, with the information before him. Have any steps been taken or regulations made to ensure that people who buy houses shall get what they pay for?


Charles Avery Dunning: That in fact was the
reason for the investigation to which my hon. friend referred.


Abraham Albert Heaps: There is provision this year for the expenditure of almost twice as much as was spent in the past year. I am not objecting to that in the least, because I assume it is on account of the extra amount of work the department is compelled to undertake in view of the increase in the number of loans-


Charles Avery Dunning: Increased volume.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes, because of the increased volume of loans by the department. There is one part of the housing scheme in which I am particularly interested, and I should like to know how much progress has been made in connection with it. I refer to schemes which private or public corporations have undertaken under the housing legislation of 1938.


Charles Avery Dunning: I presume the hon. member has in mind part II of the housing act, which has to do with low rental houses.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes, the low rental housing scheme. I do not know what progress has been made by the department or by municipalities, but I understand that difficulties have cropped up here and there. I do not know whether the department or the corporations have been responsible. So far nothing definite has evolved out of all the discussion which took place, and yet in most of the large municipalities of Canada there is a great need for low rental housing. Could something not be done in connection with most of the large municipalities of Canada- it could be arranged without changing the act; it could be done through administration 
-to start schemes wherever feasible? It would provide, first, much needed housing facilities, and, second, provide employment for a class of artisan who has had very little employment for a number of years. Perhaps the minister has information which has not been available to some of us. If so, I would be extremely glad if he would impart it to the committee.


Charles Avery Dunning: I share with my hon.
friend a very strong desire that part II of the act should be made use of in our larger municipalities. However, I cannot go all the way with him when he says that the need exists all across Canada.


Abraham Albert Heaps: In the larger areas.


Charles Avery Dunning: I doubt if low rental
housing is practicable in the smaller municipalities. It is only in the largest cities that it would be possible to have projects of a sufficient size to produce the economies necessary to comply with the low rental features of the law. Since the National Housing Act was passed eight or nine months ago we have done our utmost as promoters, if I may use that term without putting us in the class of some promoters, to create public interest in our principal cities in low rental housing. As my hon. friend says, difficulties have arisen, but so far as I know they do not relate to the soundness or desirability of the statute itself. Generally speaking, they are local in character. Under part II of the act it is necessary for either the municipality or a group of public-spirited citizens in the municipality to move and to undertake to do certain things. It also involves an agreement on the part of the municipality with respect to the maximum taxation which shall be levied on the low rental housing project. In some provinces the latter consideration involves provincial sanction, and in others it involves even provincial legislation. This is one of the difficulties with which I am familiar.
I think I can say that we are moving now toward the position where development is very likely indeed. I must admit that that statement is qualified by the fears which were generated by the international situation last September and up to the present time. As the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Heaps) knows, an active prosecution of the matter is under way in his own city. He is perhaps more familiar than I am with the local difficulties. There is a bill before the legislature of Quebec which, if adopted, will clear away some of the difficulties now faced by the municipalities in that province. A project is being developed in Vancouver, and as we understand it there is no legislative difficulty. Nova Scotia has passed enabling legislation.

Supply-Finance-Housin g


Abraham Albert Heaps: I am pleased to have the statement of the minister. I do hope that before very long some of the larger municipalities will take advantage of part II of the housing act. I understand that if they do take advantage of it, all the plans and specifications must be submitted to the department foi approval before they can proceed with the erection of such dwellings.


Charles Avery Dunning: Positively.


Mr. MASSEY:: I should like to say a
word or two in regard to the question put to the minister by the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Heaps). I am sure that all of us who have been interested in this matter are deeply concerned about the housing situation. We know that part II of the act which was passed last year was designed to aid in the provision of low rental housing. As the minister has stated, this part requires the cooperation either of the municipality or of a group of public-spirited citizens in the municipality, or both, working in conjunction with the province. The minister has stated also that there has been "promotion" on the part of his department. We understand his use of that word and commend that particular move. If we look to other countries, such as Sweden and Denmark, and particularly Great Britain, we realize that the improvement in housing which has been brought about in the past few years has been due chiefly to the cooperatives and the building societies. In Sweden the results in the matter of low rental housing have been attained through cooperative societies. I am not overlooking the fact that a building society may be cooperative in principle. In our own country, there has been outstanding success in cooperative building in Nova Scotia. The minister knows quite well what has been done there in connection with housing. I was wondering if the minister or his department had given any thought to the methods employed in Great Britain to start these building societies. I should like to know also whether a survey has been made of the development of the cooperative societies in Sweden.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Denton Massey: In both instances, the
governments played no small part in the development. I mention these two countries simply as illustrations, because the same thing can be said of the United States. In both these countries the government contribution was by no means a minor one. I do not want to delay the committee by expanding on what was done there. What I had in mind was to ask the minister if he had in contemplation the expansion of his promotion department-I use the word in the same sense as he did-with the idea of stimulating the creation of other building societies in Canada, or perhaps expanding the successful cooperative scheme which has been carried on in Nova Scotia.


Charles Avery Dunning: The function of the
building society relates more to*the individual desiring to build a home than to the creation of low rental housing projects.


Denton Massey: Quite true.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is true that the building societies in England in recent years have become landlords of low rental housing properties. However, I think I am correct when I say that this phase of the development of the building society in England is still experimental, because it is necessarily linked up with the savings element in the building society itself. It is quite easy to see how too large a development of the landlord aspect might imperil the savings and building society features so far as the individual is concerned. This is a subject of more or less continuous study. I think I can say that part II of the housing act as it stands to-day represents as great a contribution as has been made by any government that I know of to a low rental housing scheme. Of course the comparisons are with countries which have but one government, not with countries having a federal system; but in that connection it must be remembered that under part II it is not obligatory upon the province to supply anything. The province may help, and provision is made for the means whereby it may help if it so desires. But so far as financial assistance is concerned, the dominion government gives it all in the rate of interest provided, plus the assistance by the municipality with respect to guaranteed maximum taxation; and in the case of limited dividend companies the limited dividend itself operates as a control factor. Having had this few months of promotional experience-because after all we have had only a few months-I cannot see my way clear to propose to the house at this session any amendment to part II. It appears to us that part II needs to be sold to people who need it, and to public-spirited citizens who are interested in providing that type of housing. I believe that members of the house have helped and can help very materially in that kind of promotional activity. I must say, however, that the general conditions now prevailing, making people reluctant to invest, have a bearing upon the coming to fruition of several of the schemes in contemplation.


Denton Massey: If I may make a purely constructive suggestion to the minister along
Supply-Finance-Housing

that line, I think what he says as to part II of the housing act making as substantial a contribution to low rental housing as is made anywhere else is probably correct. But on the other hand we have this situation. If part II of the housing act might be regarded as lubrication to the housing machine, in other countries you have the machine and this is the lubrication; but here you have the lubrication without the machine.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is right.


Denton Massey: To scramble the metaphor, we have the cart before the horse. What might be done, it seems to me, recognizing certain tendencies in human nature, is this. Let the government recognize the fact that there are those who perhaps do not want to own their own home but would like to have a share in a place to live which they might regard as a home-in other words, in an apartment. If they cannot find in the locality in which they live an apartment of the class or kind suitable to them, and if they have not money enough to put into a home, they can rent a place and often they pay relatively high rent for meagre accommodation.
Under part I the builder of the home is to be the owner of it; in other words, an occupant is assured in advance of the construction of the house itself. He has made up his mind that he wants his own house and he is about to build. But if John Smith announces through a press advertisement his intention to build an apartment house if he receives enough applications for apartments therein from people who will pay perhaps $100 each in advance, possible tenants are reluctant to commit themselves, because they are not sure who John Smith is, or whether or not he is reliable. But if the government-and this is my suggestion-is prepared to say that it will apply part I of the housing act to any satisfactory legitimate scheme so that future tenants of such an apartment building may realize that the government itself is in some degree at least underwriting the project to the extent of saying that John Smith has been investigated and found sound, then John Smith becomes a one-man cooperative society to the extent of building a block of flats, with his tenants assured in advance. Through the promotional branch of the minister's department it would be possible in an unban centre of size to advertise that the man or the company about to build a block of apartments intended to take advantage of the housing act, in other words that he had been endorsed by the minister's department; in which case there would be little difficulty in assuring that contractor of his tenants before he started to

build. He would get an advance, as is done in Sweden, before he started, and would have sufficient money to begin construction. Those who were to be his tenants, on the other hand, would have the assurance that the building would not be a fly-by-night affair, and that they would not be left holding the bag. Does the minister get my point? Perhaps I have not made it clear.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, I think I understand what my hon. friend means, and I shall be glad to have his suggestion examined. I would point out, though, two things. First, there is nothing to prevent the erection of what are known in the United States and some other countries as cooperative apartment buildings under part I of the housing act as it now stands.


Denton Massey: Quite.


Charles Avery Dunning: In fact I have been surprised that some of our more enterprising cooperators, and also our trust companies and loan companies, have not seen the advantages which are inherent in that cooperative 'form of organization. But we cannot force it on them. As my hon. friend says, there has been a considerable development in the United States in recent years along that line.
With respect to his suggestion I have only this to say. It must be remembered that under part I the lending is done by an approved lending institution. The way the apartment builder proceeds at present-and there are many apartments being erected under part I-is to convince the lending institution that he has the necessary backing and that his plans are in accordance with the approved specifications of the department; he is then able to go out and get his tenants in the manner my hon. friend indicates. But I will give consideration to the question whether we can in any way give greater promotional assistance in that regard than has been done hitherto.


Denton Massey: It is essentially reversing the present process.


Mr. MARTIN:: I wonder if the minister could tell me, before I make a few observations, how the loans and applications under part I of the act in Windsor compare, say, with London and Hamilton.


Charles Avery Dunning: The hon. member has started something now.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I want to speak later with some measure of intelligence.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have detailed information here for every city, but it will take a little time to look it up. For Windsor there

Supply-Finance-H ousing
were 10 loans, and for South Windsor one. I do not know what the description of neighbouring municipal areas might be.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Riverside.


Charles Avery Dunning: Riverside, 9; Sandwich East, 3; Sandwich South, 2; Sandwich West, 5. Are there any others? That is up to February 28. My hon. friend mentioned London.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Just in a general way.


Charles Avery Dunning: Seventy units in London.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The reply which the minister has just given me substantiates what I am about to say. London is more inland than Windsor, and I hope I am not advertising disadvantageous^ my own community when I say that London hardly stands in need of new housing to the extent that Windsor does. Building costs in Windsor are a little higher than in that inland community, and undoubtedly this circumstance has something to do with the relative showing. There has been no lack of interest in the city of Windsor in respect of the demand, on the part of many prospective owners of homes, to take advantage of part I of the act, but there has not been in that area the same elasticity of credit as has been available in other communities, although I quite appreciate that there are reasons and extenuating circumstances. But the act was intended, the Minister of Finance indicated last session, as a means of combating unemployment at its most serious point, to try to take care of unemployment in areas in which it is to be found in greater degree than in others. Such an area is the city of Windsor. So far as we can make the act apply to such areas it should be more applicable there than in districts where unemployment is not so great; yet such is not the case. I know that under this act credit cannot be forced, but something should be done, having in mind first of all the fact that we use the phrase "approved lending institutions"-this in itself carries an official stamp which I think should imply some responsibility. Then under part I we apply the principle of the pooled guarantee, and I believe there should be a greater obligation on the part of these lending institutions to extend credit than is now apparent, particularly in my own community. The tendency seems to be to extend credit in the case of buildings where the equity is not ten but twenty per cent. It might help if the minister could give some indication of his willingness to amend part I of the act so as to lower the equity, that is to say, to lower the initial payment on a house costing say $3,000, and to
leave the equity at ten instead of twenty per cent. In any event the record clearly indicates that in an area where the act should function, it is not functioning. I am not saying that the fault is entirely that of the lending institutions. I am certainly not saying that it is the fault of the act. But possibly-to use a phrase of the hon. member for Greenwood- a little "promotion" among these companies might encourage them to take greater risks than they are now taking, having in mind the fact that they get the advantage of the principle of the pooled guarantee which was adopted from the Home Improvement Act.
I should like also to ask the minister a question with regard to part II of the act. I agree with him that to people in the low income brackets part II offers, particularly in the industrial centres, the greatest opportunity, and it is most discouraging that more communities have not taken advantage of that part of the act. In Ontario-I speak subject to correction by the minister-no applications have been made by any municipality under part II.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is correct.


Paul Joseph James Martin: The minister says that is correct. There is no need of provincial government intervention, because, as I understand part II of the act, the mere creation of a limited-dividend corporation precludes the necessity of the province appearing in the picture. So that we in Ontario have not the excuse of the attitude of the provincial government towards the act. Could the minister tell us what is being done to take advantage of part II of the act? The minister may reply, and the reply would be a perfectly proper one, what is the member for East Essex doing, or what are other hon. members doing to encourage the adoption of part II of the act? I must say that the officers of the minister's department have been extremely generous of their time. They have come to Windsor on at least three occasions, and the deputy minister of the department has been more than helpful. In spite of all that, there appears to be difficulty in getting an organization going: first of all, a reluctance to form a limited-dividend corporation; second, a reluctance to put up the necessary twenty per cent capital to get a limited-dividend corporation going.
I think this is an important and useful act. Certainly part II offers opportunities which are almost unprecedented. While that is so-while we may say, "Here we have an act and we place it at your disposal; now, what about it?"-I think we can possibly go a little further, and I want to support the
Supply-Finance-Housing

observations of the hon. member for Greenwood so far as that aspect of it is concerned. My own city of Windsor can benefit by part II of the act. Must we wait until the municipality acts? Can we not take more active promotional steps in impressing upon municipal authorities the great advantages of part II?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have some information with regard to the general situation which may be helpful. I appreciate the specific difficulties of the Windsor area, and the same is true of other areas, but the general figures do give one encouragement in relation to part I of the act. I have before me the figures for January of this year as compared with January of last year under the old act before we broadened it. They indicate about an eighty per cent increase. I am pleased to notice that February, the last month of which I have a complete record, shows a one hundred per cent increase over February of a year ago. The totals for the last calendar year as compared with the calendar year 1937 are:
1937	(the whole calendar year).. $ 8,066,000
1938	(the whole calendar year)..	14,641,000
The effect upon the employment situation of what we did is reflected in current building construction figures. Hon. members will note that while large engineering projects and large buildings are down in volume compared with a year ago, residential construction is going up, so that we are accomplishing quite a little under part I.
With respect to lending companies not being very active in Windsor and certain other districts, I may say that a very large amount of the time of one branch of the department is taken up with endeavouring to work out with companies the difficulties of, shall I say, problem areas. I say this without any disrespect to the city of Windsor, because in the recent past of that city-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Assuming that these problem areas have contributed in another way.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, quite. Without in any way speaking disrespectfully of them, there have been taxation problems and municipal adjustment problems, all of which tend to affect the attitude of lenders. It would affect my hon. friend if he were considering lending, although I am sure his transcendent faith in the great municipality of Windsor would overcome his sense of proportion, and I have no doubt he does invest his own money in his own city. But that cannot be expected to be equally true of those of us who live a long way from Windsor and have not my hon. friend's full appreciation of that city.

I believe that in connection with low rental housing, and in connection with part I, if we are looking at it from the point of view of large scale development analogous to what is being done by the building societies in England, we need the cooperation of those large estate corporations which themselves at present own land in various ways and would be able, through the medium of the housing act, to take advantage of a constructive method of employing their assets. We have some hope of getting that kind of cooperation in some quarters. It must be remembered that the old-style speculative builder has almost disappeared. We have to get the business on to a basis either where the individual, through a mortgage company, can look after himself, or where a large-scale estate corporation, seeing the possibility of erecting low-cost homes on a large production plan, can find therein profitable means of employing their funds.
In the meantime, however, part I of the National Housing Act has more than fulfilled my hopes for the first eight months of operation, as indicated by. the figures that I gave; and that the whole scheme is contributing substantially towards employment is borne out by the figure of 814,000,000 for the last calendar year and the total figure, up to the end of February, of over $29,000,000 of housing loans. That, added to pretty close to $30,000,000 of home improvement loans, represents a measure of the contribution towards employment to the extent of possibly eighty per cent of the total. It is estimated that approximately eighty per cent is in the form of wages. These figures represent the contribution which these two statutes have made and are making, in an ever-increasing degree, I am pleased to say, toward attacking the problem. I deliberately use the word "attacking," because it would be too much to "Maim that any single plan contains a solution of the problem. This is one form of attack.


Mr. LANDER  YOU@: Has the minister any figures showing the number of dwellings built in Canada between 1923 and 1930?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


John Charles Landeryou: Such figures are available in the United States. I have been reading evidence given in the United States in connection with a similar matter, and I would refer the committee to a statement of Elliott Taylor, president of Housing, Incorporated, of New York city. I quote:
No doubt members of this committee have had many housing statistics hurled at them during the discussion of the Wagner-Steagall bill last summer and fall, and the National Housing Act amendments of 1938.

Supply-Finance-H ousing
They were told, I presume, that in the years from 1923 to 1930 we built on an average of 447,000 family dwelling units a year, that during the years 1930 to 1937 we built only 74,000 such units per year.
There has been a tremendous drop in the United States, and I fancy the same is true of Canada. There is similar legislation in the United States. He goes on:
But were you ever informed that during the period from 1920 to 1937, a period that was approximately half boom and half depression times, 47-3 per cent of all homes built went through mortgage foreclosure? Congress with the best intentions in the world has recently liberalized the terms of the Federal Housing Act in the hope that it would stimulate a real and lasting revival of the home-building business of the nation. But even if we are able to get the lagging boom in building under way, will it be any permanent solution of our housing problem if a few years of building prosperity are to be matched by an equal number of years of panic, and mortgage foreclosure on nearly half of the new homes built?
He says further:
Giving the Wagner-Steagall bill the full credit that is due its authors and the congress in facing realistically the cold facts of inadequate purchasing power for a certain portion of our population, we must conclude that it can at the best be considered only a start in the direction of delivering to our citizens the shelter that they require, that the nation is amply able to provide, but which they cannot pay for.
We in Canada are faced with the same situation, but when we ask for statistics in regard to this matter we cannot secure them. The government cannot give any comparison between the number of houses built in the years 1923 to 1930 and the number built in the depression years. We have no estimate of the number of building units needed to meet the requirements of the people, but in the United States there are such estimates. They can tell you how many houses were built, the total cost of the houses, and how many more will be required.


Charles Avery Dunning: So can we.


John Charles Landeryou: Why then does the minister not give that information?


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend is the most unreasonable man in the world. Does he expect me to cart a whole carload of information here on the off-chance that he might need it for some purpose of his own? I will gladly get the information; but no man, except my hon. friend, would dream of asking for that information, which does not seem to have any bearing on the question. As to the mortgage loan feature, my hon. friend, I know, is concerned lest the people now building under the housing act may lose their homes by mortgage foreclosure in the future. I know he has a dreary view of the
future in that regal'd. I may tell him for his comfort, however, that one feature of the act that does serve to lessen the likelihood of that happening is that every national housing loan is made upon the basis of monthly amortized repayments of principal, interest and taxes, and therefore-and the experience of the companies operating the scheme shows it-there is by that method of payment monthly in the same form as rent much less likelihood of endangering the owner's equity. May I point out also that the lower interest rate has its effect upon the possibility of the owner being able to carry through his contract and being able to own his home. I wonder if the committee would allow me to let this item stand now. I am rather tired.


Mr. LAWSON:: Before the item stands, will the minister allow me to bring to his attention one matter that is purely administrative. He might have an opportunity to inquire into it between now and the next time the item comes up. I was very much interested in observing what effect the housing act, combined with the removal of the sales tax on building materials, would have in the .promotion of the construction industry in this country. I was particularly interested because one municipality in the riding I represent has the unemployment and relief problem in a virulent form, and I came to the conclusion long ago that the reason it is so much worse there than elsewhere, or than on the average, is that so many of the people there are workers in the building industry. I observed that this act did not have anything like the effect I thought it was going to have. The minister is happy about the progress made; I was terribly disappointed. So I naturally started to inquire. I went to builders; I went to one man who supplies building materials to builders, and I spoke to two or three municipal councillors in different municipalities. Strange to say, all gave the same answer; it all comes to administration. They said that one of the reasons why schemes had not been advanced was that building restrictions in connection with this housing were set so high as automatically to raise the cost out of all proportion to what it would be if the building were not done under this housing scheme. Three municipal councillors from three different municipalities specifically pointed out that the building requirements or regulations laid down-


Charles Avery Dunning: Specifications.


James Earl Lawson: -the specifications laid down, I assume, by the architect in charge of the matter under the department, exceeded
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the building restrictions in their respective municipalities. One man even, pointed out that they are higher than required by the regulations of the city of Toronto, which are considered to be completely adequate from the point of view of safety, fire protection and everything of that kind.
If that phase of the matter has not already been called to the minister's attention, I call it to his attention now, and when the matter comes up again he might be in a position to give some statement as to what has been accomplished.


Charles Avery Dunning: I can answer my hon. friend now. The experience of every housing authority in every country that I know of is that the maintenance of a standard of construction is always under attack. When I receive complaints, I naturally ask officials to justify their position. I have received complaints similar to those mentioned by my hon. friend. As a result of experience under the old Dominion Housing Act, which preceded the National Housing Act, we encouraged the national research council in an effort to evolve national standards of municipal building requirements. I was present at the first representative meeting of those interested from the municipalities who met the national research council on the question, and I was simply amazed at the tremendous diversity of opinion revealed in the building codes of the various cities of Canada. One can understand diversity based upon differing climatic conditions, but it is difficult to understand the diversity which exists between neighbouring cities.
The complaint from Vancouver which one of the hon. members from that city mentioned a while ago was that the specifications were not being lived up to, that they were not getting the quality of construction demanded. I have had each individual complaint examined carefully, and I have referred some of them to other authorities than the officers specifically responsible. The best proof that the complaints are not generally sound is found in the ever-increasing number of small loans. We have an ever-increasing number of loans of SI,700, $2,000, $2,200, $2,300. Anyone who looks at the National Housing Act specifications and the model plans will, I think, agree that we have got the costs down pretty low, and that must involve minimum specifications.
Without disparaging in any way the gentlemen to whom the hon. member for York South (Mr. Lawson) refers, I may tell him that is precisely the story I get from municipalities in which there is no disposition on the part of individuals to move in the matter. There may

be ground for this complaint in some municipalities, where undoubtedly existing standards are rather low. In other instances they are too high.


James Earl Lawson: It would hardly be said that they are low in a city like Toronto, for example; yet one man assured me that the specifications under this act were higher than the requirements of the city architect's department of Toronto.


Charles Avery Dunning: That might be true in one or two particulars, and they might be lower in others. For instance, the specifications may require minimum height of ceilings, or minimum width and strength of footings-


James Earl Lawson: I think he was speaking of thickness of walls.


Charles Avery Dunning: If my hon. friend could sit in at meetings of those engaged in operating building codes and hear the arguments they engage in as to specifications, the curious thing is that one will not find any agreement by experts in the matter; a man who contends that the requirement is too high on one point may very well argue that on the next point it is too low. It is one of those professional matters; they are almost as bad as lawyers.


Mr. HOWE:: As one having some experience in building, I might point out that building regulations set only minimum requirements. This act of course has to conform to building regulations all across Canada, and so cannot be below the minimum requirements of any building code. Therefore it must necessarily be higher than some. It is not surprising that the requirements under the housing act are higher than in some individual building codes.


Charles Avery Dunning: I find that I neglected to answer the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) as to his suggestion of lowering the required equity on the lower priced houses. While I am willing to give consideration to his suggestion, I call attention to the fact that lending up to ninety per cent in the case of a $2,500 house is in itself experimental. The ten per cent which the owner is required to put up is a very small percentage. My hon. friend's suggestion was that the limit beyond which we may not go in advancing up to ninety per cent, which is at present $2,500 might be raised to $3,000. I will give consideration to it, but I should like to have a little more experience with the present ninety per cent provision before saying that extension would be possible.
I should like this item to stand; other hon. members desire to say something on it, and. frankly, I am tired.
Items stands.

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT Marine service.
425.	To provide for breaking ice in Thunder bay. lake Superior, and other points deemed advisable in the interests of navigation, $30,000.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This item is a contract for breaking ice in Thunder bay. The amount is the same as for the past several years. The contract was originally let 'by competitive tenders, and I believe it was renewed two years ago at the same price.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weyfourn):: Does the minister mean that tenders are called for each year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The contract is for three
years. The regulations of the department allow the extension of the contract provided there is no change in the rate. The contract was extended two years ago at the same rate. Tenders on which this is based were called about 1932.


James Alexander Marshall: Who holds the present
contract?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The successor to Sinmac
Lines. I am afraid I cannot give a better explanation at the present time. The contract was awarded originally to Sinmac Lines, which has gone into liquidation. A new company has been formed, the name of which I do not remember.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Did these contracts put
them into liquidation?


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: The same
company has had the contract since 1932.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
426.	To provide for Canada's share of the cost of the north Atlantic ice patrol, $6,000.
Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: As this item
calls for Canada's share, what is the total cost?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Canada pays three per cent of the total cost of this ice patrol. It is an international patrol of areas in which ice is found along the north Atlantic international steamship routes. The average cost is slightly under 86,000, but in the year just past the cost exceeded that amount and as a result there is an additional amount provided in the supplementaries. The cost last year was S7,257. which is considered an abnormal amount. The actual work is carried out by
the government of the United States. There are some thirteen governments which divide the cost, Canada's share being three per cent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
427.	To provide for the removal of derelicts in Canadian waters, $25,000.
Angus MacInnis: What is the reason for
the increase of $10,000?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Some years ago the government embarked on a project of cleaning up public harbours along the coasts and inland waterways. It was a policy of removing wrecks, the ownership of which in some cases could no longer be determined. Since confederation, boats have been lying round the harbours, and in many instances they have been there so long their owners have died or disappeared. As a result in some cases no ownership could be determined. The government has established a policy of removing wrecks and making provisions through its harbour-masters whereby no further wrecks of that kind may be deposited. Since we began operations, we have cleared the harbours of Sarnia, Collins bay, Kingston, Portsmouth, Meldrum bay, Fort William, Port Arthur. It has partly cleared the Richelieu, and one or two other harbours. This year we have received a number of applications from other harbours, and have provided an amount somewhat larger than last year in order to carry out the work in line with the general policy and those additional applications.


Angus MacInnis: Is there any likelihood of more derelicts in an election year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think so. For two years the vote was $35,000. We thought we had the work pretty well cleared up, and last year the amount was cut down to $15,000. This year we believe we are justified in bringing it up to $25,000.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The hon. member tried to make a joke, but no one could understand it.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There will be more derelicts after the election.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
428.	Administration of pilotage, $129,600.
James Alexander Marshall: I notice that the supervisor of pilotage has been removed from his position. Is this position under the civil service commission?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The position of supervisor of pilotage was held previously by Captain Robertson, who died. On his death the

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
position was abolished, and the work is now being administered by the supervisor of nautical services. There is now no supervisor of pilotage, and no such title appears on our lists.


James Alexander Marshall: Who is the present
incumbent of the position of supervisor of nautical services?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Captain Kerr.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
1,29. Life saving service, including rewards for saving life, $17,325.
Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: What is this for?


Clarence Decatur Howe: For many years the government has maintained a life saving service on both coasts and on the great lakes. The service was designed to operate in the days of wooden ships. I have admitted before in the house that to-day that service is very much out of date. Last year we established an interdepartmental committee of civil servants to study the whole situation. We asked the Department of National Defence, and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to join with us in our study in the hope that we could work out a modern service which would be available at all times for life saving operations, and which could perform other useful work. The difficulty is that at the present time the crews have no work other than that of life saving, and it is difficult to maintain proper organizations.
We received a report from the committee, but after a study of that report we feel further investigation should be made. We believe the report of the committee is not sufficient for our purposes and therefore we are inserting in the estimates a vote similar to that of last year in the hope that before another year comes round we shall be able to propose a reorganization of the service on more modern lines. The reorganization now recommended is very expensive, and we believe a more economical one could be determined. Therefore we are not recommending that the appropriation be made to effect the reorganization in the current fiscal year.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Does this service refer to life saving appliances on boats, or operations at different points, such as Toronto?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are a number of life saving stations where life-boats and trained crews are maintained for the purpose of saving life on vessels wrecked on the sea or on the great lakes.


Angus MacInnis: What were the payments under this head in the last fiscal year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Expenditures last year
amounted to $47,000, and in the year before they were $45,730.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Was any of that money used for life saving services in the city of Toronto?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Life saving services of Toronto are maintained by the Toronto harbour commissioners.


Mr. SPENCE:: The government does not pay for anything in Toronto.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Where was this money spent?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Particulars are as follows:
Banfield	
Clayoquot	
West coast patrol	
Point Pelee	
Port Stanley	
Eseuminac	
Little Wood island	
Bay View	
Blanche	
Canso	
Chetieamp	
Devil's island	
Duncan Cove	
Herring Cove	
Main 5 Dieu	
Radio telephones (Tofino and
Leonard islands)	
Printing and stationery	
Travelling expenses	
Miscellaneous (provision for wreck pay, rewards, etc.)	
9.300
9.300 2,375 2,690
75
6,580
8,330
325
4,945
560
640
150
300


Mr. CLARKE (Rosedale):: Is it possible to maintain a permanent staff at those points where less than $500 is spent?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There are three types of life saving stations: the permanent station with a permanent crew, the seasonal station, where men are employed only for the season, and the voluntary life saving crew. I imagine the items referred to by my hon. friend cover the voluntary stations. In these cases an honorarium is paid to the captain. The other members of the crew serve voluntarily, being paid $2 per drill.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
1,30. To provide subsidies for wrecking plants -Quebec and British Columbia, $65,000.
Mr. STEVENS:: In the details of this item I notice that the total increase in the vote goes to the Quebec service. I think the minister will agree with me when I say that the

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
service given on the British Columbia coast-*
I believe the Pacific Salvage Company is the company-is entitled to a portion of this increase. The item shows a $20,000 increase, and the details indicate that $50,000 is to go to the Quebec station while only $15,000 is to go to the British Columbia station. If the minister can assure me that these details are not final, I shall have very little to say. For many years I have urged that consideration be given to granting an increase on the Pacific coast. The company maintains an expensive and excellent plant which covers a large territory, and in my opinion-I have given the matter a great deal of study-it is entitled to an amount equal to that which is to be granted to the eastern concern, which I understand is located on the St. Lawrence near Quebec City. I protest very strongly against there being no increase for the British Columbia firm. For many years this company has rendered splendid service. The grant to the eastern plant has been increased by $20,000, which is more than the total amount being paid to the British Columbia plant. The Quebec plant will now receive $50,000 whereas the British Columbia plant will receive only $15,000, the amount which it has been receiving for some time. I should like the minister to explain why there has been an increase in the grant to the eastern plant. I am not putting this matter on an east and west basis, but rather on a consideration of the services rendered. There is no question about the quality of the service rendered by the firm on the Pacific coast.	[DOT]


Clarence Decatur Howe: The government is justified in subsidizing salvage equipment only to the extent that is necessary to make sure that salvage equipment will be available to protect a given trade route. The season on the St. Lawrence lasts only about seven months. The channel is an artificial channel, and it is essential to shipping and to the maintenance of reasonable insurance rates that adequate salvage equipment be maintained. The subsidy paid on the St. Lawrence has varied from $40,000 to $60,000 per annum; I believe it was cut down to its present level of $30,000 about 1932. For several years we have been receiving serious protests from this company. They claim that they have not earned sufficient from their salvage operations to meet their operating expenses. The salvage boat on the St. Lawrence has become out of date. A number of wrecks occurred last season for which salvage action was not as prompt as was thought desirable. It is proposed -that new equipment shall be placed on the St. Lawrence, and the subsidy was increased to an amount which it was thought would justify this additional equipment.
As far as the Pacific and Atlantic coast salvage operations are concerned, the situation is quite different. Instead of being limited to a small area, these boats operate over considerable distances. I believe the salvage boat at Victoria operates as far south as San Francisco and as far north as Alaska. The subsidy paid to this company was $10,000 per year for the ten years up to July, 1935, at which time it was increased to $15,000 per annum. A ten-year contract was entered into between the salvage company and the federal government to cover salvage services at the rate of $15,000 per annum. Strong representations have been made that this subsidy is inadequate, but the salvage company of its own free will chose to enter into a ten-year contract. The officers of my department find it difficult to vary a contract in a way which would not be to the advantage of the crown.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is there any contract in connection with the eastern coast?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is no subsidy paid on the eastern coast.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is there any contract with the St. Lawrence company, similar to that entered into by the British Columbia company?


Clarence Decatur Howe: F'or many years there has
been an annual contract, renewable at the end of each fiscal year. No contractual obligations have been entered into with the company on the St. Lawrence at this time, and unless suitable contractual arrangements are made the subsidy will not be increased if provision is not made for a more adequate boat. I have told the representatives of the Pacific Salvage Company that if the St. Lawrence contract is revised we will consider a revision of their contract, although just what we can do about it, in view of their ten-year contract with the government, personally I have not been able to decide.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The argument which the minister adduces for the contract on the St. Lawrence applies with equal force on the west coast. He points out that there are only seven months' navigation on the St. Lawrence. On the west coast the navigation period is twelve months, the year round, and the salvage company must maintain its equipment ready for instant service at any time, complete with crews, steam upon its tugs, and so forth. Its equipment is efficient and up to date in every respect, and it is giving an extremely valuable service.
Another thing. This company operates on the difficult coast of the constituency of my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni, on the west coast of Vancouver island, one of the most
2"24	COMMONS
Supply-Transport[DOT]-Marine Service
dangerous coasts on this continent in the winter season. It operates also on six to seven hundred miles of inland waters between Vancouver island, Queen Charlotte islands and the mainland, where there is very heavy traffic not only in coastwise but in deep sea shipping, which frenquently passes through the inside channel. So that the service rendered is comparable with that rendered on the St. Lawrence, and it has to be maintained twelve months in the year, with the equipment kept in first-class shape ready for service at any moment. I urge the minister to consider the desirability of making provision in his supplementary estimates for an increased subsidy for this service. There will no doubt be further supplementaries; there always are, and I would urge upon the minister that he include in the supplementaries a further grant for the Pacific Salvage on the Pacific coast. I repeat that I cannot speak too highly of the splendid service they have rendered over a period of many years. I have long been of the opinion that they have not been paid a sufficient subsidy, and we have had the question up on many occasions in years gone by. They made this contract for a ten-year period simply because they had no alternative. That was the contract offered to them, and they had to take it; there is no question about that. Particularly in view of the increased subsidy for the St. Lawrence service, the present contract should not prevent the government from revising it and increasing the subsidy for the service on the Pacific coast.
I am making this appeal to the minister on very high grounds, on the merits of the efficient service that is rendered.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department agrees entirely with my hon. friend as to the efficiency of the service rendered. But the argument that he has used in favour of a subsidy could perhaps be used as an argument why a subsidy is unnecessary; that is, the service is on a very dangerous coast where the boat traffic is heavy, and therefore there are better chances of commercial earnings through wrecks than on the St. Lawrence, with its shorter season of navigation, and the much more limited area served. We have a similar condition on the Atlantic. There a very efficient salvage service is carried on by a private firm with no subsidy whatever, and the reason no subsidy is granted is that the commercial earnings in that area seem to the department to be sufficient to warrant this company, in maintaining the service independently of any help from the government. But of course we receive annually very strong representations from the maritimes to subsidize this operation. 
I can say to my hon. friend from Kootenay East, however, in view of the splendid service the boats on the Pacific coast are rendering that if there is any revision of any salvage contract we shall once more go seriously into the contract with Pacific Salvage Company.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine service.
488. Steamship inspection and the carrying out of the provisions of the conventions for the safety of life at sea and load lines, $206,290.
Mr. LOCKHART:: To what extent are passenger steamships inspected? A return was tabled in the house showing that the steamboat plying between Toronto and Port Dalhousie was built in the year 1891. This boat carries a large number of passengers in the summer, and there is the possibility of danger at some future time to passengers using it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Has the boat on this service, which is a short run of thirty miles, been inspected and found to be fully equipped and adequate to take care of the passenger traffic during the summer months?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The act provides for the testing of boilers and machinery, the construction and working of the ship; the inspection of hulls and equipment of steamships; the inspection of machinery and equipment; the examination and certification of steamship engineers, and inspection of the tackle used in loading and unloading. The standards for boats carrying passengers such as my hon. friend refers to are set out in the regulations made under the Canada Shipping Act. The boats are inspected each year for hull and equipment, and every four years the boat is dry docked for a complete inspection of the boiler, tailshaft and all machinery. I have no knowledge of this particular boat, but I can assure my hon. friend that it has been duly inspected and that our inspectors have reported it safe for carrying passengers.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: Is there inspection of all boats touching at Canadian ports, or only of boats of British registry?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It applies only to boats of Canadian registry.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: There are not very many of those, are there?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh yes, a vast number; I could not say how many, but it must be in the thousands.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: This boat, built in 1891, and running between Toronto and Port Dalhousie, is authorized by law to carry 1,213

Supply-Transport-Marine Service
passengers. Is the strictest inspection enforced to prevent any possible overloading? I am not an alarmist, but very large crowds are carried by this boat in the summer time, and I am inclined to think she sometimes carries more than 1,213 passengers.


An hon. MEMBER:: Sometimes 2,000.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Two thousand, and
at times almost 2,500. I should like the minister to make sure there is proper equipment there; it might avert a serious fatality. I understand there have been 2,000 or more passengers on that boat on special picnics from Toronto to that harbour.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Boats carrying passengers
are subject to rigid restrictions. During the past two years a load-line provision has been put in effect and is being enforced. There are strict regulations as to the number of passengers that may be carried, the type of life-saving equipment, the type of fire-fighting equipment, and so on. But I will have particular note made of this reference and will ask our inspectors to look into the matter more thoroughly.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What revenue is
derived from the inspection of these steamships, and about how many inspections are made?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In 1937-38 the revenue was
8112,288. The estimated revenue for the current fiscal year is $121,822.


Thomas Langton Church: I wish to ask the minister a question which arises out of items 432 and 433. In view of the emergency, what is the government doing with respect to the marine transport services on ocean and lakes? Reference is made in item 433 to steamship inspection. The empire has 2,000 less ships to-day than it had before the war. These items are correlated with what was done at the empire shipping conference, not only regarding miscellaneous services relating to navigation and shipping, including these schools, but steamship inspection, load-line, and so forth. I think I can raise the same question under the one item so as not to detain the committee. I wish to know what action the government took at the imperial conference as regards shipping, in relation to marine and merchant shipping and the fact that we have 2,000 less ships to carry food and supplies to the mother country.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Outside of cooperating fully
with the Department of National Defence and its naval branch, the department is taking no special action. Of course the government
subsidizes steamship companies plying over the various trade routes, but no special action is being taken at this time.


Thomas Langton Church: Well, under item 433,
"Steamship inspection and the carrying out of the provisions of the conventions for the safety of life at sea and load-lines," what action has the government taken regarding the two ships mentioned by the hon. member for Lincoln, regarding the Northumberland and other boats operating on lake Ontario? What action is the government taking as regards the inspection of ships with a view to increased safety, not only on the seaboard but on the great lakes and other inland waters? I was on the steamship Northumberland, which in my opinion is not safe. The minister replied through his proper officials that there is sufficient space on this ship in time of storm. I can tell the minister that not one-third of the passengers can get any shelter in times of rain or storm on lake Ontario. Some action should be taken of a precautionaiy character. The nearest lifesaving station is at Toronto harbour. On one occasion on the other side of the lake a Detroit boat carrying a thousand passengers was damaged and had to be beached at Amherstburg. Ships which are not good enough for Prince Edward Island should not be on the lake Ontario-Toronto service for ten or fifteen years carrying the loads which they transport at the present time. In view of the importance of the steamship and tourist traffic which may be expected during the visit of the king and queen to the Niagara peninsula, what action is the minister taking regarding proper inspection, and boat service to which the department is obligated under the British North America Act? I know that the law has been violated on the great lakes; for I have seen evidences of it. What is the department doing?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The department through its inspection staff is complying with all the provisions of the Canada Shipping Act. Within the last two years load-line regulations have been introduced on the great lakes, and they are now applied to all passenger boats and to all freighters. The inspection regulations of the Canada Shipping Act are, I think, quite as stringent as those of any other country engaged in merchant shipping. An annual inspection is called for, and the boat must show its inspection certificate before it can clear from the customs at any port. Adequate precautions are taken to make sure that each ship has received its inspection. We believe that our inspection staff is very efficient-
2726	COMMONS
Supply-Transport-Marine Service
we have had no evidence to the contrary- and that it is carrying out the provisions of the Canada Shipping Act.


Thomas Langton Church: Coming down to the seaboard, under the same item, 433, "the provisions of the conventions for the safety of life at sea and load-lines," what action is the government going to take, in view of the present emergency in foreign affairs, on the ocean if there is any trouble during the coming year?-and from what the Prime Minister and others have said in this chamber, we may be pretty close to it. What action is the government taking in view of the fact that we have now only 120 convoy ships to transport all this food and man-power and look after our trade on the seven seas? We have less than before the war. What action is the government taking to look after the civilian population in connection with the transport of food, and for the safety of passengers and crews and the merchant marine at sea? Seeing that there are 2,000 ships less in the British merchant marine, including Canadian hulls, than before the war, the government must be taking some precautions for the safety not only of ocean liners but of ships of the merchant marine which convey food and supplies to the mother country. The government sends representatives to the convention which is held during the imperial conference; there was a shipping committee, and Canada is on that committee. In what way is this item related to what is done, or is not done-because Canada refused to do anything about shipping at the convention, although she sends representatives from the department to the conferences. We should get some report from them. What is the policy of Canada, in view of the emergency, as regards safety at sea?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say that all the international life-saving conventions have been complied with. We have adopted every international convention having to do with the safety of shipping at sea, and as I stated before, our inspection staffs are carrying out as efficiently as possible the terms of the Canada Shipping Act- and the various conventions.


Thomas Langton Church: They are not doing anything. The minister might just as well say, no.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I may say to my hon. friend that in the last two years we have doubled the size of the Canadian navy.


Thomas Langton Church: Not a thing has been done.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: How is the charge for the inspection of these ships made up? On what basis is it computed? Are all the boats in Canada, including those on the lakes, subject to these inspections?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All passenger boats and all cargo boats above 150 tons. Under 500 tons the cost of the load line certificate is S30; the renewal certificate, $10, and the annual survey, $10. From 500 tons to 1,000 tons, the cost of the certificate is $40; from 1,000 tons to 2,000 tons, $55; 2,000 tons, $65; 3,000 tons, $70; 4,000 tons, $75; and up to 9,000 and over, $100.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is that for each inspection?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is for the issue of the certificate. For the renewal of the certificate the . cost is $25, and the annual survey is $20.
Mr. MaeINNIS: What is the amount collected under this?


Clarence Decatur Howe: About $120,000 per annum altogether.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Last year it was


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: What is the operating loss? The estimate last year was $200,000, and we collected $112,000. Is there any reason why the dominion government should stand
that loss?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Our inspectors do a great
deal of work for which there is no charge. Apart from the annual inspection fee, the inspector goes aboard frequently to make interim inspections for which no charge is made. Replying to my hon. friend's question, I think we would be justified in increasing the fees in order to make the steamship inspection branch self-supporting. I shall be glad to have our officers look into the situation and make recommendations.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I am glad to hear the minister say that. It seems to me that the value of this service to shipping is so very important from the point of view of insurance rates, safety and the hazards encountered, that the department should make it self-supporting or make a profit out of it if necessary.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: The boats that ply out of Toronto harbour, the Kingston and the Toronto, are forty or fifty years old, and while they look seaworthy I think they should be inspected, seeing that they are so old. I suggest that all these passenger boats on the great lakes should be equipped with the latest type of radio. That is important.

Supply-Transport-Marine Service


Clarence Decatur Howe: The law requires all passenger boats to carry radio and those of more than 5,000 tons to carry radio in the fall of the year, and in addition to that we are providing telephone service. We have expanded that a great deal within the last year. We have radio and telephone services at a number of points along the shore on the great lakes, and a great number of very small boats are installing telephones. This allows the shore stations to communicate with the boat and vice versa. The boat can connect with the Bell system so that the master may talk with head office or with his wife at home. This service is attracting a good deal of attention, and we are ahead of the United States in this regard. The United States, however, have this year made a considerable appropriation for a similar service on that side. I rather think that by next year we shall be able to make the use of either the telephone or the radiotelegraph mandatory for all shipping of any size on the lakes.


Harry Gladstone Clarke: There is another matter that should be attended to. The lifeboats on these steamers are forty or fifty years old. The boats are pretty well worn out, having been painted and repainted, the paint having been burnt off frequently. Is there a rigid inspection of these life-boats, or is there a time limit for their replacement?


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is an annual inspection of life-boats. The regidations are similar to those of the British Board of Trade, and they are rigid. I can assure my hon. friend that the life-boats are in first-class condition. I cannot believe that the life-boats on these steamers are of any great age.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: Are there no regulations governing vessels under 150 tons? Are they not inspected?


Clarence Decatur Howe: All passenger boats, however small, are inspected, but cargo boats up to 15 tons are exempt. The cost of inspecting these small boats adds considerably to the cost of the inspection service. We found it desirable to charge a small fee. It costs a good deal to inspect a small boat, and the real loss by the department is on account of the fact that the fee charged for the inspection of small boats is inadequate. But the desirability of the service from the point of view of safety of life warrants our doing the work at a small fee.


Angus MacInnis: The number of tackle inspectors has been doubled this year. Do these inspectors look over the tackle used by longshoremen in loading and unloading?


Clarence Decatur Howe: These men inspect all kinds of tackle and examine especially the chains for flaws. They also inspect methods of loading. We have doubled the number of inspectors because we thought there were too many accidents where ports did not have tackle inspectors.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The minister said that he would take into consideration a proposal to increase some of the tariffs charged for inspection services. Personally I am not very much in favour of any increase for inspection services unless it is absolutely imperative. Last year we passed certain legislation which put a good many carriers under considerable handicap. Personally I was in favour of that legislation, but I hardly think it would be an appropriate time to place further handicaps by way of increased tariff tolls on the people engaged in that traffic. It is a service for which the government have a responsibility, the same as many other inspection services which the government owe to the public for its protection. The government ought to bear part of the responsibility, and cannot make the service entirely self-supporting. There are many other services given by the government, such as inspection of weights and measures, for which we do not charge. It is done for the protection of the public, and the same applies in a sense in regard to the load-line and so on. I feel that we should not make the cost too onerous, particularly for the smaller boats.


William Daum Euler: My hon. friend is incorrect when he says there is no charge for inspection in connection with weights and measures. There is a charge made.


Abraham Albert Heaps: But does it carry itself?


William Daum Euler: It does.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Then my argument in that respect is not sound, but there are other phases of government inspection in which service is given practically free of charge because in some measure it is for the protection of the public.


Thomas Langton Church: I moved for a return to an order of the house in this connection, and I have not received the return. The order relates to conventions for safety at sea, and the load-line. I have asked for that return four or five times.
In connection with this item I wish to ask two or three questions. There are United States ships now carrying Canadian grain; in view of the amendments to the Canada-United States trade treaty, have we any control over those ships or load-lines? What inspection is there?



Supply-Mines and Resources
The minister's department has in the last few years sold for $50,000 a number of ships costing $1,000,000, $1,500,000, $1,750,000, $2,000,000. Did he look into the load-line there; were they inspected before the sale, and did lie consider that in an emergency we may need those very ships to carry food and supplies to the old country? They could have been converted into merchant ships. Why were they sold? The admiralty has announced that they are 2,000 ships short at the present time.
Another question was regarding representations which were made by marine bodies, navigators, the engineers' and mates' association and others regarding aids to navigation and the safety of crews on the great lakes. Under the British North America Act there has to be equality of treatment for ships on the great lakes or the St. Lawrence or the ocean regarding registry and aids to navigation. Surely men on ships on the great lakes are entitled to some inspection and regulation of load-line.
The minister said that they have doubled Canada's navy, I asked for a return on that too as correlated to this item. What is the fleet?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If I may interrupt, let me say that since my hon. friend has not obtained his return, this item may stand and I shall see that the return is brought down immediately.


Thomas Langton Church: My remarks were on the minister's own statement three or four minutes ago. I have the floor.


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. The item stands.


Thomas Langton Church: I had not finished what I had to say about the load-line. I have something yet to say about this item. I have the floor.


Frederick George Sanderson: The hon. member is out of order. The item stands.


Thomas Langton Church: The rest of what I have to say will be relevant to this very item.


Frederick George Sanderson: The hon. member must resume his seat.


Thomas Langton Church: The item stands whenever anyone wants to say anything.


Frederick George Sanderson: Order.
Item stands.
mines and resources
118. Departmental administration, $178,735.


Robert James Manion: The estimates of this
department are now being considered for the first time?


Mr. CRERAR:: Quite.


Robert James Manion: How many other departments are there whose estimates have not yet been considered for the first time?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot say at the moment. I do not think there are many.


Robert James Manion: I do not wish to delay the proceedings, but this is the one occasion, when the government does choose to move to go into supply, when hon. members might possibly bring up some subject for redress. I will not object to the estimates of this department being introduced at the present time, but I do not think it should be done too often in this way at the last moment.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It has not been done very frequently, I think.


Robert James Manion: As a matter of fact, never has.there been a government that I know of while I have been in this house which has moved so seldom to go into supply as this government. This government has done so as rarely as possible, apparently for the purpose of dodging the possibility of some private member bringing up a controversial subject.


Charles Gavan Power: My hon. friend said supply was not important.


Robert James Manion: I have explained that. I said estimates were only fillers in, and that is correct; but I do not want them filled in quite so easily all the time, because there may be an occasion when we wish to take up some subject. However, I do not wish to delay the introduction of the estimates of this department getting in. I have nothing in view in regard to moving an amendment, but I hope that one of these days the government will move to go into supply and give us an opportunity if we wish to bring up anything.


Frederick George Sanderson: Shall the item carry?


Robert James Manion: No, the item will not carry. We will discuss that next time.
Item stands.


Robert James Manion: Apparently the Postmaster-general is getting ready with his estimates. I do not want it understood that the estimates of the Post Office Department have been brought in for the first time without a little discussion. We have allowed one department in; I do not like to hold up the new minister, but at the same time I do not think he should count himself in at the present time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think under those circumstances we can meet the wishes of the leader of the opposition. He has really cooperated pretty well, especially during the last week or so.

Questions


Robert James Manion: We have been cooperating all the time.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, April 13, 1939