1939-05-29

Mr. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):: 1.	How many tons of scrap metal were loaded on the Danish freighter Aaro for direct shipment to Germany since May 11, from Saint John, New Brunswick?
2.	Who were the shippers?
3.	Who are the entrepreneurs of the companies concerned?


Mr. ILSLEY:: It is contrary to the established practice of the department to give information which would disclose particulars of either single or total exportations by individual exporters.


Mr. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):: 1.	How many tons of scrap metal have been or are being loaded at the port of Montreal this year for Japan and other countries?
2.	What are the names of the companies making shipment?
3.	What are the names of the owners and entrepreneurs of each company?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1. Particulars of exports cannot be furnished by individual ports, but the following are the quantities of scrap metals exported to Japan and other countries from the province of Quebec during the fiscal year ended March 31, 1939:
Scrap iron and steel-ton.
Country	Quantity
United Kingdom	 1
Hong Kong	 24
Belgium	 629
Japan	15,489
Netherlands	 8,138
United States	 776
25.057
4G52
United States Periodicals

Other scrap-cwt.
Country	Quantity
United Kingdom	 45,499
Belgium	13,652
Brazil	 3,170
Czecho-Slovakia	 2,119
China	  215
France		969
Germany	 7,502
Japan	 28,143
Netherlands	 2,634
United States	 58,720
162,623
2 and 3. It is contrary to the established practice of the department to give information which would disclose particulars of either single or total exportations by individual exporters.



UNITED STATES PERIODICALS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. F. E. LENNARD (Wentworth):: I should like to direct the attention of the government to the fact that the magazine Ken is again being sold on the news stands; and, since its subject matter has not been improved at all, I should like to know why the ban on this magazine has been lifted.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The magazine in question was banned, that is entry was prohibited, some time ago because it published a cartoon which was offensive and which the Department of National Revenue considered came within the terms of the provisions of the Customs Tariff relating to such publications. The customary period of prohibition is for six issues. The issues that followed were not objectionable from the point of view of the Department of National Revenue. Not only was that the case; the publishers of Ken gave an undertaking to the government to desist from publishing material of the type they had published previously, or at least on that one occasion, and also published an editorial in which they expressed their regret. Since that time I am not aware that the publication has contained anything that could possibly be construed as of a seditious or treasonable nature. For that reason there appears to be no ground for prohibiting the magazine from entering Canada.


Mr. WILFRID GARIEPY (Three Rivers):: The last number of the magazine Life contains an absolute lie, a statement which is insulting to oDe of the older provinces of Canada. I should like to know whether the

government intend taking steps in the matter, and perhaps to have this magazine excluded from the country.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If the hon. gentleman will bring to my attention the specific matter he has in mind, I shall have it looked into and examined; but so far as I know it has not been brought to the attention of the department as yet.


Wilfrid Gariépy: Well, Mr. Speaker, the specific matter is this: There is a picture showing their majesties riding in a landau, an open carriage, in the city of Ottawa, and the caption underneath suggests that since the population here was loyal, no special precautions had to be taken, whereas in the city of Quebec they had to ride in a bullet proof armoured car because the people there were not loyal. These are not the exact words, but I have indicated the substance of the statement. It is something which should not be allowed in any publication circulated in Canada, and I think steps should be taken to stop this magazine at the border.


James Lorimer Ilsley: The matter will be considered.


Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: No doubt this was crazy; but I am not sure that it is a good thing to give wider publicity to it.



RAILWAY SERVICES

[Stage Direction]
CANADIAN NATIONAL-CAN AD IAN PACIFIC ACT, 1933 *-COMPENSATION OF EMPLOYEES AFFECTED BY COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT
The house resumed from Friday, May 26, consideration in committee of Bill No. 138, to amend the Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act, 1933-Mr. Howe-Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On the schedule-paragraph 2.
Mr. MacINNIS:: What would be regarded as the beginning of the term of employment of persons who had been laid off because of cooperative measures after 1933, and were again taken on? Would they be given credit for the years of employment before the first lay-off?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Transport) :: 
Angus MacInnis: So long as they were subject to call for work, they held their seniority?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Mr. STEVENS:: Is it clear that the terms of the well-recognized agreements between the unions and the companies are reflected in this legislation? For instance, there is the point just raised by the hon. member for Vancouver East, to which reply was made by the minister, as to what constitutes a lay-off or a severance. I imagine that is covered in the agreement between the men ana the companies. If the language of the measure preserves such contracts and agreements, then of course the situation is safe; but if the language is such that it might vary contracts or agreements, a serious question at once arises, and one which ultimately could result in differences of opinion between the workers and the companies. It seems to me we should take care that in this measure the language shall be such as to assure the preservation of the status of the different agreements.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The schedule now before the committee is practically in the language of the Washington agreement negotiated between the brotherhoods and the railways. This bill and schedule has been submitted to the eighteen brotherhoods who hold agreements with railway companies, and the wording has received their detailed examination and approval.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is a complete answer.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think there is no doubt *whatever that the spirit of the agreements is carried out in its language.


Mr. HEAPS:: When the bill was before
committee on the last occasion I raised a point with regard to what I thought was unfairness to long-term employees who under the cooperative provisions of this measure might be laid off. The minister said he felt that the men with short-term service would be the ones who would likely be laid off. While there may be a certain amount of truth in the minister's statement, he must know that over a period of years there has been a continual process of laying off in the railway shops, as well as in other sections of railway activities, and the result is that to-day one will find very few working on the railways who might be described as short-term employees. Most of the employees are men
who have had service of ten or more years, and that condition has developed as a result of the continual lay-offs which have been going on over a considerable period. The figures I placed before the committee a few days ago indicate that only two-thirds the number of persons are employed on the railways as compared to the number employed seventeen years ago. The figures indicate that men with shorter terms of service have been laid off, and that only those having comparatively long terms are being retained. I suggest, therefore, that there is still a certain amount of unfairness in a clause which deals with compensation for men having service of, say, fifteen years or more.
However, as the minister has pointed out, this plan has been approved by the representatives of the great majority of railway employees, and I have no desire to ask the government to change anything which has thus been approved by the government on the one side and by the representatives of employees on the other. But if a large measure of cooperation becomes effective, as a result of legislation now in effect, this matter of compensation would no doubt be an important one confronting railway employees.
There is another matter which I believe should be brought to the attention of the minister; it is directly connected with the matter now under consideration. Hon. members realize the great financial loss suffered each year by the country through the operation of the railway companies. In the operation of the Canadian National we lose almost $1,000,000 a week, and that loss is almost exclusively chargeable to interest payments to bondholders. If we did not have that huge interest charge to meet the load would be much lighter. On two occasions the committee which deals with the Canadian National Railways has recommended that the government attempt to do something to lighten the burden of interest charges.
In one of the annual reports of the Canadian National Railways I find that in the period 1S75 to 1S83 perpetual bonds bearing five per cent interest were issued to the extent of over $20,000,000. There was another issue of perpetual bonds from 1S58 to 1876 to an amount of $13,000,000, bearing a five per cent interest rate.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Do any of them bear
a seven per cent rate?


Abraham Albert Heaps: I will come to that. In 1883, four per cent perpetual bonds were issued to the extent of $119,000,000; in 1884 four per cent bonds amounting to $1,499,000. Then
4654	COMMONS
Canadian National-C anadian Pacific Act
in 1884, four per cent perpetual guaranteed stock was issued to the extent of $60,800,000. In 1921 there was an issue of six and a half per cent guaranteed debenture bonds. Six and a half per cent is an outrageous interest charge for a government to have to pay on what might be considered a bankrupt railroad.
I do not see why something should not be done in connection with the high rates of interest paid on these perpetual bonds. The bondholders ought to bear in mind the fact that in order to meet these obligations the government is compelled to borrow money. Some hon. members will say that if we do not pay the full guaranteed rates on these securities which go back to 1858, 1875 and 1884, it would amount to repudiation. But if the yields on some of these bonds were calculated carefully it would be found that they have been paid four and five times over. In spite of what might be said, the time has come' when these rates should be cut down to three or possibly 2i per cent.
Short-term Canadian National railway bonds have been issued bearing an interest rate of only two per cent. In 1935 there was an issue of $13,400,000 at two per cent, and in 1937 there was an issue of short-term bonds at 21 per cent. If these interest rates could be brought down to the rate the government pay for money borrowed at the present time we could save considerably in excess of the $12,000,000 I suggested a few days ago on the interest charges of the Canadian National railway system.
Under this measure the railway system is to assume additional obligations. Have the government taken definite steps to do something in this particular regard? There is a strong feeling throughout the Dominion of Canada to-day that this reduction in interest charges should be made, in view of the fact that these obligations were assumed in connection with a bankrupt railroad. If I were a bondholder I think I should be ready to accept a considerable reduction in interest rates. I should feel much more secure with a bond bearing 2i per cent interest than with a perpetual bond bearing 5i or a bond bearing 64 per cent. I do not think people in any other part of the world would be prepared to be burdened with perpetual bonds going back to 1858, without having some redress against such high charges. For two successive years the railway committee suggested that something should be done, and I should like to know if the Department of Transport or the Department of Finance are doing anything about what I would almost term an intolerable situation.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend has touched upon what constitutes the real railway problem of Canada, that is, the funded debt obligations which have been laid from time to time on the Canadian National Railways. Through the years the Canadian National Railways has never failed to pay its operating expenses and, with one or two exceptions, it has paid all charges except bond interest. The debt charges on the Canadian National Railways are abnormally high when compared with the same charges on other railways. The average debt charge on class one railways in the United States is about 16 per cent of gross revenue. The bond charges on the Canadian Pacific amount to about 17 per cent and a fraction of the gross revenue, while the interest charges on the Canadian National amount to about 27 per cent of gross revenue, which of course is entirely out of line with the charges borne by other railroads.
Anything that we can do to reduce debt charges is a partial solution of the railway problem. But there we meet the difficulty that by far the greater proportion of Canadian National Railway obligations have been guaranteed as to principal and interest by the federal government. In the early days the component railways were built with money obtained from bonds guaranteed principally by the provinces, but through the years these guarantees have been gradually taken over by the dominion government. My hon. friend has pointed out that recent borrowings have carried interest charges as low as two per cent and not higher than 3i per cent. That we are able to borrow money for the railroad at these low rates of interest, practically the same as is paid by the federal government, is due to the fact that the guarantees of the federal government on railway bonds have been honoured absolutely. If there was to be any degree of repudiation, however slight-nothing could be done in connection with a guaranteed bond without there being some slight measure of repudiation-I think the inevitable result would be that the cost of refunding, and of borrowing new money for capital improvements, would be substantially increased.
There is a point that it is well to bear in mind in connection with these perpetual bonds. While it is true that they bear a date before the beginning of the present century, with the exception of one issue of Canadian Northern bonds they are all obligations of the Grand Trunk Railway. In that connection the agreement between the government and the bondholders is dated 1919.

Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act


Abraham Albert Heaps: But interest has been paid all that time.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The bondholders have been receiving interest, but in 1919 the government took over the Grand Trunk Railway. A board of arbitrators was set up to determine the basis upon which the railway would be taken over, and it was decided that the government should continue to pay interest on the first mortgage, and certain other bonds and the preferred and common stocks were declared to be without value. As hon. members know, the government has carried out that agreement to the letter. Many times it has resisted demands, some made in this house, for the payment of the junior securities. We have refused to go beyond the award in that regard. I think the strength of our position lies in the fact that we have followed out the award in the payment of the interest on the senior securities.
This fact is very important in considering the position of these long-term and perpetual Grand Trunjc bonds. The basis of the purchase of the railway was that we would continue to pay the interest on these bonds, but would be relieved of certain other securities of the railways. As far as the government is concerned, in effect the date of these bonds is no further back than 1919. The average interest rate on all Canadian National bonds is slightly less than 4 per cent. This rate has been reduced from year to year as the bonds come due, and are refunded. The 6i per cent ifesue mentioned by my hon. friend comes due in a short time, I think within a matter of months.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Six years.


Clarence Decatur Howe: In any event the issue is comparatively small and it has not been deemed worth while to take drastic steps in respect of this particular issue. The Department of Finance has been studying the matter and conferences have been held with groups of bondholders. The Department of Finance and the board of directors of the railroad are constantly working on the various issues in an attempt to obtain adjustments more in line with present day conditions. Some progress has been made. One very important issue can be straightened out shortly, we think, by negotiation. I can assure my hon. friend that short of absolute repudiation everything is being done that can be done to meet the condition to which he has referred.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Would it be possible to call in at any time any of the perpetual five per
cent bonds?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is not possible to call in a perpetual bond. That could be done only by negotiation or by repudiation of the perpetual feature. There is no call clause in these bonds. A perpetual bond is sometimes issued containing a clause providing for calling the bond after a number of years. A few dominion government bonds are in that position, but not these perpetual railway bonds. I should be inclined to agree that disregard of the perpetual feature would be the mildest form of repudiation that can be suggested; nevertheless it remains a type of repudiation. While some consideration has been given to the situation, no decision has been arrived at.


Mr. McNIVEN:: Would it be possible for the government to go into the market and buy these perpetual bonds-call them in in that way rather than repudiate?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Consideration has been given to this suggestion.


Mr. FINN:: On the question of repudiation, and I think it is only in the nature of a suggestion, hon. members would be in a better position to discuss the matter if they had before them a picture of all the outstanding obligations of the various companies taken over under the Railway Act of 1919, under Sir Robert Borden's administration, placing this tremendous burden on the country. There were the Grand Trunk, the Grand Trunk Pacific, the Canadian Northern and various smaller railways in some of the provinces. It was said the other day that there are over $440,000,000 of outstanding obligations in connection with the Intercolonial railway. The Intercolonial debt is not included in the Canadian National obligations.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is practically no outstanding bonded indebtedness against the Intercolonial railway, which was paid for in cash, as constructed, out of the revenues of the dominion.


Robert Emmett Finn: Yes, and the obligations continued to be paid. That is the reason I suggested the other day that the Intercolonial railway is in an entirely different position from that of any other railway in Canada. It was built with moneys out of the treasury of Canada, and the interest is paid. Nevertheless when Mr. Fairweather of the Canadian National Railway management brings down his statement of outstanding obligations and outstanding interest, he brings down the interest charges or deficit outstanding to-day in connection with the Intercolonial. Sometimes he makes it $4,000,000 and sometimes $5,000,000. It turns out that there are two railways in the province of Quebec which

4656	COMMONS
Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act
were never a part of the Intercolonial railway. In Nova Scotia the Halifax and Southwestern railway was taken over. It was built with subventions from federal and provincial governments, and these obligations are included in the aggregate as outstanding against the Intercolonial railway. But the Intercolonial railway stands in a different position from the Canadian National Railway system. It is a separate railway entity. The obligation in connection with its extension and operation is an obligation on all the provinces of Canada.
Under the act of 1919, which I think was a bad thing, when the Grand Trunk in the United States became part of the Canadian National railway system, the Intercolonial railway, which was built as a term of confederation, became part of the system and subject to the railway commission. At that time we were enjoying special rates, which had been in existence for forty years, to allow us to get into the central markets of Canada. Those special rates were wiped out entirely by the War Measures Act introduced by Sir Robert Borden's government, and as a result we had to place on the statute book a freight rates dct. That act is an injustice to the people of Canada. Why? Because, while special rates were given to allow the maritime provinces to get into the central markets of Canada, the Canadian Pacific Railway comes in under the general freight rates act, and with respect to every dollar that is paid out in connection with an obligation of the Intercolonial railway, which was constructed as a condition of confederation, we have to pay the piper to the Canadian Pacific as well. If the old statute had remained on the books, continuing the special rates we had enjoyed for forty-three years, practically in perpetuity, the legal position of the maritime provinces in relation to the Intercolonial railway would have been such as no other part of Canada enjoyed.
We were foolish enough in 1919 to take over practically all the railways in Canada, the Canadian Northern with its huge bond obligations, the Grand Trunk and the Grand Trunk Pacific. My suggestion is-and I make it not in the way of criticism but for the sake of enlightenment-that the committee be given a mental picture of all the outstanding obligations in connection with the various railways now forming part of the Canadian National Railway system-the perpetual and other bonds, those bearing a high rate of interest and those bearing a lower rate of interest.
I suggest to the minister, who with his officers is giving this matter serious and continuous study, that when the tax-free war bonds were

called in, it was repudiation when we said they should no longer be tax-free but must be treated just the same as any other bond in that regard. I do not stand for repudiation in its broadest and largest sense, but I do suggest to the Minister of Transport, the Minister of Finance, and the government generally that they try to see what can be done in the way of lightening the load of interest obligations, as suggested by the hon. member for Winnipeg North-obligations that are bearing down heavily on the people of Canada. I think it is a larger question almost than the question of amalgamation versus cooperation.
The other day, when the Minister of Transport moved the second reading of this bill, I made the statement, which I believe was correct, that Mr. Fairweather, who is the financial expert and chief of the bureau of economics of the Canadian National Railways, stated before the special committee of another chamber that the Canadian National Railways had gone as far as they could in the direction of cooperation, in the pooling of services and the elimination of. certain railways. I read the report rather hurriedly, but it seems to me that that statement was made by him, and I believe also that it was contradicted by representatives of the Canadian Pacific Railway. The whole question is so involved that the people of this country are mystified as to the exact situation of the two systems. It is almost like being on that little boat, the Maid of the Mist, under Niagara Falls; you get on board the legislative barque of this parliament of Canada, and unless you have the real picture before you it is hard for an individual member to deal intelligently and fairly with the general situation.
As regards rates of interest on outstanding bond issues, particularly the perpetual bonds,
I cannot see that it would be in the nature of repudiation if this country should decide, after due study, that these perpetual bonds should give place, through a refunding issue, to a bond which is not perpetual. We have already refunded other outstanding obligations of the Canadian National Railways, and people have handed in their old bonds and accepted new bonds at a lower rate of interest. If that course has proved acceptable to the Canadian people who have sufficient money to own these bonds, surely if the attempt were made, not by force or duress, but through some financial compromise, we could reduce this heavy burden of interest which is weighing down our people and making such an inroad on the national income of a population of a little over eleven millions.
The problem is a serious one. The remarks I have made this morning are not in the way

Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act
of criticism but are intended to have more light thrown on the subject. I believe that at some future time the Minister of Transport, with the assistance of his technical advisers, will be able to enlighten hon. members and the people generally with a complete picture of outstanding obligations, the rates of interest they bear, and the railroads against which they are charged. We could then deal more intelligently with the question of doing away with the perpetual bond issue by the issuance of a bond guaranteed by the government carrying a lesser rate of interest. I believe that our people are patriotic enough to bear at least part of the burdens entailed by these interest charges on our great railway system, which now extends, I believe, over 35,000 miles.


Mr. ROBICHAUD:: In section 4, paragraph (b), line 26, occurs the word "will." "Will" is not a legal term unless it is used to designate a testament. In this case the word should be "shall."
Again:
In determining length of service of an employee ... he will be given credit.
One would think, reading the sentence as it stands, that the man gives himself credit for that service. I know I shall be told by some hon. members, as I was told the other day, that the clause is understandable. Yes, it is understandable, but so is pidgin English. I think we should aim a little higher, especially when these law's are to be interpreted by men who are learned not only in the law but also in the language. I should have thought that some other phraseology could have been used than that which appears in the section, making it clear that it was either the committee of adjustment or the board of arbitrators that was determining the length of service. Instead of the wrnrd "determining" being used as a participle they could have used the noun:
In the computation of length of service . . . he shall be given credit for performing service while so engaged. . . .
Or something to that effect. In any event the word "will" should be changed to "shall."


Clarence Decatur Howe: This language has been
threshed over a good many times. It is the language of the Washington agreement.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: I do not care whose language it is.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should be very pleased to change "will" to "shall" except that, as my hon. friend knows, this bill has already passed the senate, and I should not like to send it back there-they might change their minds about it.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: Just give the senate warning that they must watch their English.


[Stage Direction]
Paragraph agreed to.
Paragraph (c) agreed to.
On paragraph (d).
Abraham Albert Heaps: This subsection has to do not only with the question of compensation but with the matter of a person being asked to return to work who is receiving compensation as the result of the measure we are now discussing. A good many employees are receiving fairly low wages, and according to this measure they will be entitled, in case they are laid off as a result of any cooperative effort, to sixty per cent of the amount of their salary or wages as compensation. A man whose wages have averaged about $70 a month-and that is about the compensation of a great many employees- will be entitled to sixty per cent of $70, or $42 a month. A man cannot live with any degree of decency on so small a sum, and I have been wondering whether it would not have been wiser and better that persons who receive so low a rate of compensation should be allowed to augment it if they have the opportunity of doing so, without infringing upon the conditions of the measure we are now considering.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are quite at liberty to augment their earnings in any way they like, provided that that way is not service for a railway.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Then do I understand that an employee of the railway who is receiving compensation as a result of cooperative efforts, and whose compensation amounts, let us say, to the figure of $42, can go out and obtain other employment and receive his compensation over the period of two or three or five years, as the case may be?


Clarence Decatur Howe: He can start other employment the day he is laid off, if he likes to do so. He still gets his separation allowance from the railway.


Abraham Albert Heaps: He can take a full-time position anywhere else the moment he is removed from the service?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Oh, yes.


Abraham Albert Heaps: And still be entitled to compensation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. He is still on call for the railway, but provided he is not called he can work at any employment he likes; just as a railway shopman laid off to-day can accept other employment without disturbing his rights with his railway. This compensa-
4658	.	COMMONS
Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act
tion has relation entirely to employment by the railways. A man can engage in any other activity he likes, provided he is always on call for the railway. He must report back when he is called.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is there anything in this bill that distinctly corroborates the minister's statement as to the facts of the matter?


Clarence Decatur Howe: This agreement simply states what the employee must do in relation to the railways. It places no restrictions upon his activities in other lines.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It applies only to men
laid off in consequence of cooperation between the railways, but not to lines that may be torn up by one railway which may consider such lines no longer necessary?


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is correct. It applies
only to lay-offs resulting from an agreement entered into under the terms of the Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act.


Mr. BARBER:: Is this retroactive?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Harry James Barber: It does not apply to men
laid off in the last few years?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. It distinctly applies to
employees now or hereafter to be employed by the railways.


Robert Emmett Finn: Is this legislation intended to
be perpetual, or is it merely to fill in a gap? Is it likely to be repealed by the present government?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I do not think my'hon. friend would ask me to bind future parliaments, but so long as I am Minister of Transport it will not be repealed.


Mr. SLAGHT:: Would paragraph (e) cover the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway? Was the question considered of widening the scope of the provision in order to cover temporary employment with that railway?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway operates under provincial charter, and the Canadian National-Canadian Pacific Act applies only to the two railways therein named. This would not affect agreements with the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway.


[Stage Direction]
Paragraph agreed to.
Paragraph (f) agreed to.
Section agreed to.

On section 3, paragraph (b).
Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: In this paragraph
there is an obnoxious little comma which, I must confess, gave me considerable trouble for the size of it. It appears between "whenever" and "appropriate" in the second line.


Clarence Decatur Howe: It is obviously an error, but
is it of sufficient importance to warrant sending it back to the senate?


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 4 to 7 inclusive agreed to.
On section 8, paragraph (a).
Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: There is a queer twist in the phraseology here. The important words in the paragraph are in line 22 "to be named." Those are the dominant words. Three arbitrators are to be named, one by the representatives of the interested employees and one by the representatives of the Canadian National company and the Canadian Pacific company and the third by the two so named, "or, in case the two arbitrators so named fail to agree on the selection of the third arbitrator, the Minister of Labour shall make such selection." Why not say "or by the minister?" If you wish to use the phraseology used here you should say "but" instead of "or": "but if the two so named cannot agree the minister shall make the selection." It must not be forgotten that the dominant words are "to be named." Otherwise the sentence is involved and it is difficult to understand. It may be said that sending it back to the senate would entail some trouble, but they are not averse to correcting our language, and quite properly so.


Clarence Decatur Howe: This is the language of the Washington agreement and when we pass this schedule we shall have a uniform law applying to all north America so far as this particular act is concerned. Such uniformity is desirable and perhaps overrides any slight ambiguity my hon. friend may detect in the paragraph. No one will question the procedure intended under the bill. I agree that the wording may be a trifle cumbersome, but that hardly justifies our departing from the language of the Washington agreement.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: I am not moving an amendment, nor am I asking the minister to have one moved, but I should like to know who drafted the famous Washington agreement.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I suppose it was the result of the combined legal talents of the railways and the brotherhoods.

Salt Fish Board


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: The Canadian railways and brotherhoods?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No. The Canadian railways are represented through the Grand Trunk Western, which is a United States line, but the responsibility rests with the United States railways and the brotherhoods, which are international.


Mr. REID:: Are the railway brotherhoods satisfied to have only one representative?
I notice that in cases of disputes they will have one and the railways one each, and these two will appoint a fourth.


Clarence Decatur Howe: There is only one representative for the two railways.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the Washington
agreement cover agreements between the unions and the men?


Clarence Decatur Howe: The Washington agreement
covers only compensation in the event of consolidations in the United States. One party is the railways and the other the employees represented through their brotherhoods.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It does not cover any agreements between the head office of the brotherhood and the men directly?


Clarence Decatur Howe: No.


Mr. McGREGOR:: When does this agreement come into effect?


Clarence Decatur Howe: As soon as royal assent is given, which we hope will be in a very few days.


Angus MacInnis: Does this bill cover employees -who are not members of any of the railway men's organizations? Does it apply to such employees who may lose their positions in consequence of cooperation?


Clarence Decatur Howe: It covers every employee of the railways. Most railway employees are represented by a union; I know of no class }f employee who is not. The only significance of the union is that in connection with the board of arbitration which is set up under the act it is provided that the union holding the agreement covering that class of employee will be the instrument through which one member of the arbitration board is appointed. That is the only way the unions come into it, but every employee is covered.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is there not some sort of board of adjustment on which the employees and employers are represented, to look after any grievances that may arise under this measure?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Certainly.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Who will appoint the members of that board?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Can my hon. friend mention any class of railway employees not represented by unions? I suppose the extra gang labour would not be, but that would not come under the agreement because it is only temporary labour with no seniority rights involved. Aside from that I know of no class of employees not represented by some branch of a union holding an agreement with the railways.


Angus MacInnis: I had more in mind the office employees.


Clarence Decatur Howe: They are all unionized, so far as I know.


Angus MacInnis: I understand that the
standard labour organizations have approved this bill, but that it has not been approved by the Canadian brotherhood organizations. In case there is a dispute in which the Canadian brotherhoods are involved, how are the arbitrators selected?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Where the Canadian brotherhoods hold the agreement covering that class of labour, the Canadian union would select the representative. As my hon. friend knows, each branch of labour is covered by a specific agreement with the railway, and whoever holds that agreement would appoint the representative. If it was the brotherhood, then that member of the board would be appointed by the brotherhood.


[Stage Direction]
Subsection agreed to.
Subsection (b) agreed to.
Section 8 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, May 25, consideration in committee of Bill No. 130, to provide for the constitution of a salt fish board-Mr. Michaud-Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 5-Duties of board.
Mr. PELLETIER:: When we were discussing this section the other day the committee rose at six o'clock and I had no opportunity to make the remarks I desired to make. However, as a result of the statement on that occasion by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler), who L regret is not in his place to-day, one thing stands out sc
Salt Fish Board

clearly that it cannot be allowed to pass without being brought to the attention of the government. Subsection (a) of this section states:
The board shall
(a) investigate and report to the minister upon the marketing of salt fish in the export trade and explore all possibilities of opening up new marketing outlets;
I am afraid I must agree with the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) when he says we are taking away the functions of the Department of Trade and Commerce. Already there has been some invasion by the Department of Agriculture, and now we find the Department of Fisheries taking over some of the work which in my opinion belongs to the Department of Trade and Commerce. It becomes quite clear that the Minister of Trade and Commerce now will have only a motion picture bureau to look after, since all the other functions of his department are to be taken over by other branches of the government. In the course of his remarks the Minister of Trade and Commerce said:
Our chief competitors are Newfoundland, Norway and Iceland. Newfoundland is perhaps as strong a competitor as we have. The people of Newfoundland are almost confined to the production of one commodity, namely fish-
I think that should be underlined, because it is very important.
The people of Newfoundland are almost confined to the production of one commodity, namely fish

Further on the minister said:
Most of our market is in western Cuba, although in that market Newfoundland is now becoming a strong competitor.
And further on:
Then, our market in the British West Indies is not as good as it was. Newfoundland has become a keen competitor.
In other words, the Minister of Trade and Commerce advanced the argument that because Newfoundland has become a strong competitor of Canada it has become necessary to subsidize the fishing industry of Nova Scotia. At this point I want to make it quite clear that I heartily endorse any proposal to help the fishermen of that province-


Robert Emmett Finn: Of the maritimes.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Yes, but I wonder if this is the best method we can adopt to help our fishermen. After all, what does this mean? Here we have an appropriation of about $800,000 that we propose to spend in order to help out the salt fish industry of the maritime provinces. In the first place we are seeking to destroy the markets of a country with which we are on very friendly terms.

The Minister of Trade and Commerce has made it quite clear that the people of Newfoundland live chiefly through the production of fish. So far as I know we have nothing at all against the people of that country; we have very friendly relations with them and we would like to help them, but the way we are going to help them is lay taking away their only means of livelihood. We say we must destroy their markets in order to gain them for ourselves, and to do that we are going to subsidize our fishing industry.
In the second place, Mr. Chairman, by a subsidy of this nature we are lowering the cost of Canadian fish not to Canadian consumers but to consumers in Cuba. ' We say we cannot compete with Newfoundland because their prices are lower than ours, so we are going to subsidize our industry. In other words we are simply lowering the price of Canadian fish to the consumer of western Cuba. It seems to me we should be able to go about this business in a much better way than that. Instead of reducing the cost of our fish to the inhabitants of western Cuba I would prefer to reduce the cost of our fish to the inhabitants of western Canada or of western Ontario. If we intend to spend $800,000 it does not make much difference to us whether we spend it in one way or another, but I believe we should spend it to the best advantage of Canada as a whole. Therefore I suggest to the minister that it should be possible to take this $800,000 and give it as a discount to the Canadian dealer instead of to the Canadian exporter. As a result the price of fish to the Canadian consumer would be lowered. I know it is argued that the question of transportation enters into the fresh fish industry, but this measure deals with salt fish only, so the transportation question does not enter at all. We can ship our fish from the maritimes to western Canada or western Ontario, or as far as we like as a matter of fact, and keep it in very good condition. I would ask the minister to tell me whether he does not think this suggestion is entirely reasonable. Instead of giving a subsidy to make Canadian fish cheaper for western Cubans, why not give a subsidy to make Canadian fish cheaper for Canadians? In so far as giving help to the industry is concerned it will amount to the same thing. The fishermen do not care where the sales are made, so long as they are made. If the minister intends to bonus the industry, then why not bonus it on sales made in Canada instead of those made in western Cuba? If that were done,, what would 'be the result? We would not be taking anything away from Newfoundland. They need their markets,

Salt Fish Board
because as the Minister of Trade and Commerce has stated repeatedly, that is their only means of earning a livelihood.
How do we propose to help ourselves? It is suggested we help ourselves by taking from Newfoundland their only means of livelihood. I suggest that instead of bonusing the exporters of fish the minister should use the $800,000 to give a discount to dealers in Canada, and thus help the industry and at the same time help the Canadian consumer, and not the consumer of western Cuba. I hope the minister will realize I make these observations in a spirit of helpfulness. I am not attempting to criticize the desire to help the fishermen of the maritime provinces. I want them to have prosperity, the same as other people in Canada. But I do suggest our first consideration should be for the Canadian consumer rather than the consumer of western Cuba. I believe my argument is worthy of careful consideration. I might add-and perhaps at the same time destroy the argument I have been making-that that is one of the principles for which hon. members in this group stand.


Mr. MICHAUD:: That would not be
unusual.


Thomas Reid: What about wheat?


René-Antoine Pelletier: We are not dealing with wheat just now; we are dealing with salt fish. But wheat is a commodity of which we have an abundance in western Canada, whereas we do not get as much fish as we could use.


Thomas Reid: The principle is the same.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I have to pay about thirty-five cents a pound for fish in western Canada, and it is therefore evident that many of our consumers cannot get it. This piece of legislation is an example of the folly of attempting to compete with a friendly nation to benefit ourselves and at the same time destroy their trade, when we might improve our trade more easily and to greater advantage by extending sales within our own country. I suggest that the conditions with respect to wheat would not be the same because of the vast amount of wheat that is exported. But in this instance we are dealing with an expenditure of only $800,000, and we have before us a striking example of what could be done by using that money in Canada to our own advantage. I hope the minister will consider my suggestion carefully. There may be technical flaws in my argument, but he will have to work out the technical details in connection with subsidizing exports. In any event, I do not think
technical details would destroy the truth of the argument I have been making.
The Minister of Fisheries, in collaboration with his colleagues in the government, has all kinds of experts available to work out technical details. They are not for me to worry about. I am concerned only with the idea of giving the preference to the Canadian consumer rather than the consumer of western Cuba, and I suggest my representations should be given serious consideration.


Ernest Lapointe: That is selfish, not salt fish.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I might add it looks like a fishy way of doing it.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: In view of the evident concern of the hon. member for Peace River, may I assure him there is no intention to invade the prerogatives of the Department of Trade and Commerce, nor is it felt by the minister at the head of that department that his prerogatives are being invaded by the Department of Fisheries. There is no danger that the government of the country will be upset by the invasion by the Department of Fisheries of the prerogatives and duties of other departments. It is not our intention to assume duties, in connection with finding markets for Canadian products, which heretofore have been discharged by the Department of Trade and Commerce.
As the hon. member is no doubt aware, in these days the marketing* of processed fish, due to exacting taste and requirements of consumers abroad, has become very difficult, and there is the further difficulty experienced by the fishermen of adapting themselves to the production of that type of product demanded by the consumer. In its investigation of the marketing of salt fish the object of the Department of Fisheries is, first, to investigate the needs of people who in the past have bought our fish, but have since made evident their preference for the product of competing countries. In some instances they claim our goods are not as well prepared and not put up in as good quality as those of other countries. It is our intention to have the board find out what the consumers want, and we feel that to acquire that information we must have the services of experts in the fishing business. That is why we ask wide powers for the board. Then, in the second place, we want to investigate methods of preparing fish which have been adopted by our competitors, and place that information within the immediate reach of the producers and processors of salt fish. That is a further duty to which we feel the board should apply itself.
Salt Fish Board

If the hon. member has been anywhere on the Atlantic coast where people live through what they gain from the fisheries he must know that the fishermen go to sea in the morning and come back in the evening, and because of their location and environment, and their limited educational facilities, they have difficulty in following the methods adopted in foreign markets where they must meet competition. The department is looking into that matter on their behalf, and we are transferring to the members of the board duties which in the past have been assumed by officials in the department. As hon. members must realize, the board will be nothing more or less than a branch of the Department of Fisheries. It will be under the control of the department and particular duties will be assigned to it.
On that score the hon. member need not fear any invasion of the prerogatives of the Department of Trade and Commerce. We will confine ourselves to the business of finding better markets for the producers of salt fish, ascertaining whaf consumers in foreign countries want, and how we can produce those goods at a cost low enough to enable us to compete with the products of other countries.
The hon. member has said that we are going to affect the rights of the Newfoundland fishermen. It must not be forgotten that markets now being enjoyed by our competition from Newfoundland were at one time the markets enjoyed by Canadian fishermen. The fishermen of Newfoundland have been successful in invading what might be described as our markets because they have adopted certain measures which heretofore our fishermen have not enjoyed.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Through subsidies.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The government of Great Britain has undertaken the administration of Newfoundland and is providing large sums of money for the welfare of those people. I understand that the amount voted this year comes close to $5,000,000, which will be employed for the relief of Newfoundland. They are able to give us serious competition in our markets. Should we lie down and let them invade our markets without adopting similar methods to enable our fishermen to compete? I feel, and those connected with the fishing industry feel, that we should adopt some measures to enable our fishermen to meet their most serious competition.
My hon. friend has made the statement that this subsidy will reduce the cost of fish to the consumers in Cuba, which country my hon. friend has taken to exemplify his argument. There are two sections of Cuba

to be considered, the east and the west. The people in the warmer climates eat more fish than the Canadian people do. They have to have it, they cannot produce it, and that is why we strive so hard to capture and maintain these markets. The people in Havana for many years have refused to use our fish in large quantities because they claim it is not up to the standard they require; they say they will not take our fish until it is prepared to their particular requirements. On the other hand, the people of Santiago like our fish and the manner in which it is prepared.
In recent years the fishermen of Newfoundland, Norway and Iceland have been granted subsidies which have enabled them to supply-fish of a high grade at a very low price, so much so that our producers cannot meet the competition and make a profit. We feel that in order to induce people to use our fish we should meet the prices of our competitors. We do not want to reduce the market price, but we do want to enable our fishermen to produce fish of the required standard and quality and at the same time make a living. This must be done if we are to sell any' fish on these markets. My hon. friend suggests that we should direct our activities toward the bonusing of salt fish for Canadian consumption. We must not overlook the fact that the Canadian people do not eat the same amount of fish as do the people in the southern countries, and for that reason our market is limited. Then if we go too far west, we meet the reproaches of the fishermen on the Pacific coast who produce more than half the total production in Canada. They claim they must have the markets of the western provinces. Then the fishermen on the great lakes want to preserve their market in the central provinces. To subsidize the fishermen in eastern Canada in order to enable them to compete with the fishermen of central Canada and the Pacific coast would not be reasonable or fair.
My hon. friend must know that during last winter and the winter before, considerable quantities of salt fish were sent to the western provinces for relief purposes. There was an immediate reaction from the fish dealers in the western provinces who claimed that we were invading their markets. We have to be careful in whatever policy we adopt in the marketing of Canadian products. We must not favour one group at the expense of another. The benefits of this legislation are applied only to the export of salt fish because that is where we have our most serious competition. To vote money to permit the fishermen in one part of Canada to compete with the fishermen in another part would be illogical and unfair. I suggest that we should

Salt Fish Board
do our 'best under difficult circumstances to help this class of people who unfortunately are not in a position to help themselves. I admit that the legislation is not perfect. It is only an experiment and many defects may be found in it. But it is a step forward; it is the first attempt made to help these people. If all cooperate I think we shall succeed in bringing about a measure of relief to a class of people who certainly deserve it.


René-Antoine Pelletier: The minister said that he intended to use fishermen from the eastern coast who know something about fishing in order to discover new methods of packing and preparation. I do not think that meets the contention I was making, that this is largely an invasion of the jurisdiction of the Department of Trade and Commerce. There is no reason why that department should not have its experts, fishermen if you like, go into the matter of devising new methods of packing and preparing. As a matter of fact, I believe the Department of Trade and Commerce has representatives abroad who are supposed to feel the pulse of foreign markets in order to keep home industry advised.
So far as the bill itself is concerned, it is not a question of whether it is a good thing to bonus producers. That is beside the point; it is a question which has been dealt with already. We have decided to do it, and all I am asking is that it should be done to the advantage of the Canadian consumer instead of to the advantage of the consumer in Cuba. The minister has said that the western Cuban likes our fish. I do not doubt that at all. But the western Canadian also likes eastern Canadian salt fish and would be glad to get it. If I had not suggested an alternative market to that of Cuba, then my argument could not stand. But there is no doubt that western Ontario and the western provinces could absorb that small amount of bonus which we intend to give to assist the people on the eastern coast.
The minister said that we are assisting various classes in Canada by giving bonuses- the great lakes fishermen, the fishermen on the western coast and others-but he did not refer to the injury this might do to the fishermen of Newfoundland, whose only livelihood is fishing. The minister said over and over again that all that Newfoundland had to depend on was the fisheries.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I do not feel that it is within the scope of my duties to look after Newfoundland.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Quite so; but the minister should not destroy the livelihood of the people of a country with which we have
friendly relations. However, I thought I would make my suggestion to the minister because this appeared to be an ideal opportunity to put it into practice with reference to this-Canadian industry. It is not necessary to refer to other branches of Canadian industry because fishing is the only one we are considering at the moment. Generally speaking, this is not a vast sum of money; we have spent larger amounts, but it deals with one particular industry and one type of product, a product for which we cannot find a market within Canada. Every factor is present in this industry for trying out this new method of economics. The minister says that this measure is simply an experiment, that it is not perfect. Of course, no legislation dealing with something of which we have had no previous experience can be regarded as other than experimental, an attempt to move forward; and I do say that this affords a splendid opportunity to take a forward step, instead of relying, as we always have done in the past, on finding foreign markets. I hope that the minister will consider the suggestion I have made because I feel it is worthy of consideration.


Mr. POTTIER:: The hon. member for Peace River suggests that we sell fish in the Canadian market and give the Canadian consumer the benefit. Let me compare the Canadian market to the foreign market to show how the fishermen would benefit from such a policy as he suggests. In 1937 we produced 211,432 hundredweight of dried cod, and we exported 205.992 hundredweight, leaving 5.540 hundredweight for Canadian consumption. Suppose-you made it $5 a hundredweight. The fishermen of the maritime provinces, about 20,000 in number, would benefit to the extent of about $5,000, or about 25 cents apiece in a year. That w-ould follow from the policy suggested by the hon. member for Peace River.


Mr. CAHAN:: This bill is not confined to-dried codfish.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: That is a big item.


Robert Emmett Finn: This bill is for the purpose
of assisting in the development of an export market. There are two classes of people engaged in this industry in the maritimes, the fisherman and the exporter. The fisherman in Nova Scotia to-day, unless he is a bank fisherman, with vessels and crews to catch fish, is both a fisherman and an exporter, and one of the safeguards that we should place around this bill is this. We are practically voting $800,000 to assist the exporter to sell his fish in foreign markets, in Cuba, the West Indies, Italy and whatever other markets are
Salt Fish Board

available. In my judgment-I may be wrong, and perhaps the Minister of Fisheries may be able to change my view-no person who is going to benefit from the receipt of any part of this 8800,000 should be a member of the board. I think that should be made clear.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: That is clear.


Robert Emmett Finn: The minister says that
that is clear, but I cannot see it. It should be an independent board. The major power should remain and be inherent in the Department of Fisheries. The board should not be very much more than an advisory board. If you are going to have exporters make regulations as to the ordinary marketing of fish and the manner in which it shall be put up-because they are the people who are going to do it, and they are the people who are going to receive this $800,000-it will not be an independent board. We should have an independent board that will be fair to the fisherman, fair to the exporter and at the same time help to rehabilitate the salt fish industry and the various classes of fish which will be exported under the provisions of this bill. The exporter should have no fiduciary relations whatever with the board, no more than a member of parliament can be in receipt of anything beyond what the statute permits him to receive, his sessional indemnity and, if he is a minister of the [DOT]crown, his pay as such. The moment you go beyond that you make a monopoly of it, because the exporter has control of the 8800,000, and unlike another bill before us this morning, this bill does not say "may" but "shall," and "shall" means "must." It is [DOT]a monopoly. I think it is a proper time to see that our exporters of fish are treated fairly and that the fisherman is also given a [DOT]chance as to price. The board should be absolutely independent to protect the interests of the fisherman who has fish to sell to the exporter, and we should not permit the exporter to make conditions such as will give him a monopoly. While he is making these regulations he will be putting the money in his own pocket. I do not mean that in an unfair way, but if this measure is to be a success, the members of the board should not, beyond what they receive for their services, participate in the export of fish to any market because they have the inside track. They are like the horse; I do not know much about horse racing, but they seem to have the pull. I make that suggestion to the minister, and if the bill in that respect is not clear as it stands, it should be made clear.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It would be better for
them not only to have the pull but to win the prize.


Robert Emmett Finn: My hon. friend comes from
a province where they always have the pull and win the prize as well.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6-Powers of board.
Mr. NEILL:: I should like before this passes to make one more comment on the phraseology of the intent of the bill. The section reads: "give assistance to exporters." When I find in spite of what has been said by the minister, a member such as the member for Kent (Mr. Robichaud) expressing dubiety as to the meaning, and a member with the experience and ability in interpreting the law of the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) saying plainly that he believes the section means "aid the exporters," I think I am justified in falling back on common sense and the dictionary meaning and regarding "exporter" as meaning one who exports.
If they hold that point of view, then it would appear that the whole bill is framed around giving benefits to the exporters.
I should like to point out by way of comparison what is done in another country. The whole purport of this bill, we are told . by hon. members from the maritimes-and I believe they are sincere in saying so-is to give aid to the working fisherman. Well then, by all that is wonderful, why not say so? Why not put it in language that cannot be misunderstood? It is the working fisherman who is up against it, who is on the edge of relief or starvation, and we propose to help him. What more definite way could be followed than to say it in language which any of us could understand? Here is an illustration of what a neighbouring country has done.
I hold in my hand an article from the current number of the Financial Post describing how the Newfoundland government subsidizes the salt cod fish industry. It reads in part as follows:
Newfoundland fishermen are being guaranteed a minimum price for their catch of cod fish during 1938.
Observe the words "fishermen," "guaranteed" and "price."


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: How is that done?


Alan Webster Neill: That is a matter of detail.
I am dealing with what they have done. The Newfoundland government is really a commission government under the British government. The article goes on to say that the commission government of Newfound-

Salt Fish Board
land has established minimum prices to be paid by exporters to fishermen. Could language be more plain or more welcome to the working fishermen? They not only are going to fix but they have fixed the price to be paid by exporters to the fishermen. Further on it says:
Minimum prices to be paid to fishermen at designated export points are given below.
And then those prices and points are given. The man who is out on the coast, away out of touch with anything, knows, if he goes out and gets a certain quantity of fish, exactly what he can get for them. Is not that satisfactory to him, and ought it not to be to us? Then the article says:
Exporter is free to sell at the best price he can get.
There is no trouble such as we had the other day trying to dope out how the benefits would filter down or drip down from the exporter, backwards-a very difficult way-to the fishermen. Here it begins with the fishermen, and it says, "You will get" presumably "a reasonable price." The prices fixed appear to be reasonable. The fisherman knows exactly what he is going to get. The government takes the responsibility and pays the loss to the exporter after taking into consideration what labour charges have been put on. It seems to me that that is exactly what we are trying to do in this bill. If that is the case, why mix it up by vague or doubtful interpretations of what an exporter is? The Newfoundland government know what they are doing. They have done it before; they did it in September, and they say that it worked satisfactorily. Why not follow this precedent?
The hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare says, how will they do it? I suppose they will pass an order in council fixing the price.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: But how do they pay the money?


James Lorimer Ilsley: If I am correctly informed, payment under the Newfoundland scheme is made by the government to the exporter, on condition that the exporter pays these prices to fishermen. Do I make myself clear?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: No. It is a decree, as to price.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is exactly what can be done under this act.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is compulsory.


James Lorimer Ilsley: If you had the regulations of the Newfoundland government before you, von would doubtless find that the Newfoundland government or the commission is authorized to pay the exporters, out of the money supplied by the British government, the difference between what they are told to pay the fishermen and what they get in the foreign market.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: No, that is not it. I have had an opportunity of looking it up.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I have been told that that is it. I shall be glad to be informed.


Alan Webster Neill: This article says that the government pays the exporters the loss, but they start in with the fixed price to the fishermen; and you cannot show me within the confines of this bill where the fishermen are guaranteed anything at all.


James Lorimer Ilsley: They may be.


Alan Webster Neill: Yes, they may be, but the exporter, when it comes to him passing back the money, will find all kinds of reasons why he cannot afford to pay. But here it begins at the basic place. The fisherman has to get the fixed price; he knows about it. Is that the case under this bill?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The bill authorizes the same thing.


Alan Webster Neill: Then why not say so?


Mr. KINLEY:: The government absorbs
the loss plus a profit to the exporter.


Alan Webster Neill: No.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I do not feel that I should discuss this bill at any length. It does apply, of course, to the fishing districts of Quebec. It should be so arranged by appointing an advisory committee for the fishing districts of Quebec, or by appointing a member on this central board, that the interests of the Quebec fishermen are looked after to just the same extent and as advantageously as the fishermen of Nova Scotia. I am astonished that not a single member from Quebec has, apparently, taken the trouble to study this bill or to suggest to the house in what way it might be improved so as to serve the Quebec fishing interests. I do not know sufficient about the fishing interests of Quebec to discuss in detail the application of the scheme to their interests, but I am convinced after due consideration, and after having listened to the information supplied by the ministers and by hon. members who participated in the discussion, that this bill offers no definite advantage to the shore fishermen of Nova Scotia.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Of course not I The hon. member would not admit that.
Salt Fish Board


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I think it is a fair measure in so far as it offers or is likely to offer advantage to the bank fishermen. That is an industry which should be conserved, and I take second or third or fourth place to the hon. member for Queens-Lunenburg, who knows far better than I the details regarding the bank fishermen from Lunenburg, or possibly from Liverpool, although I assume that the Liverpool bank fisheries are practically extinguished by this time.
I am not so anxious as is the hon. member for Peace River to conserve the interests of the fishermen of Newfoundland. I believe in giving them a fair deal; but it must be remembered that it is the Newfoundland government which began the bonus system in order to give to Newfoundland fishermen an advantage in certain ports of Cuba. In this they have succeeded. Just in so far as the government of Newfoundland has subsidized its exports to Cuba or to any other place in the West Indies in competition with the fishermen of the maritime provinces, I would be willing to meet that competition dollar for dollar, by subsidizing our Canadian Atlantic coast fishermen to exactly the same extent, so that when their product enters the markets of Cuba or Puerto Rico or other islands it would enter on an equal basis, the one not having any advantage over the otheT except as the fishermen of one district may produce more cheaply than the fishermen of another. But this bill leaves it to a board, to be appointed, to make all the enactments which they deem necessary for the purpose of carrying this measure into effect. That is leaving too much to this board. The board is organized on the eve of a general election and it is vested with $800,000 to use at its discretion for political purposes or for the purpose of assisting this particular industry.


Robert Emmett Finn: It will not get many of the
votes of the fishermen.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I do not know. I should not think it would get many votes from the shore fishermen represented by my hon. friend.


Robert Emmett Finn: I say it won't get many.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Perhaps not, but I am not personally concerned with that.


Robert Emmett Finn: Neither am I.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No; that is evident!


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I am not concerned with that. I am just as anxious to see the fishermen of Lunenburg or Queens receive some benefit as I am to see the fishermen of the Halifax or the Guysborough coast given some advantage. I have no favours to suggest, but I say that this bill does not provide any-
IMr. Michaud.)
thing for the boat fisherman, who catches the fish, though I conceive that it may be to the advantage of the fisherman who has a share in a fishing vessel which is engaged in bank fishing, and I am glad that he may-get some advantage. But the poverty and distress along the Nova Scotia coast, are poverty and distress among the shore fishermen and not the bank fishermen. Therefore,, while I commend the bill in so far as it is of advantage to the bank fishermen, I think it should contain special and definite provisions which will ensure that the shore fishermen shall receive some benefit.
The Newfoundland government in its discretion has prescribed by decree the minimum prices that shall be paid the fishermen. That is the basis of the Newfoundland law at the present time. The fisherman of Newfoundland is assured of a minimum price no matter what happens to the fish afterwards, and that fixed price is of very great advantage to him. It is true that the exporter is also taken care of, because the exporter under the law of Newfoundland is entitled to receive the minimum price which is paid to the fisherman plus so many cents a quintal for labour in gathering the fish at the outport for export; so much at St. Johns and another price at other outports. He is also allowed certain other overhead charges. For instance, the price paid the fishermen in St. Johns will be $4.25 a quintal plus overhead labour and a special allowance amounting to 75 cents or a total of $5.00, and the-difference will be payable by the government; that is to say, the losses of exporters who-have paid the minimum prices, established bylaw, plus the overhead charges for labour and other items allowed by law are paid by the-government. In other words, the exporter will receive whatever price he can obtain in the foreign market, but such losses as the exporter-may incur are an additional charge upon the government funds and will be paid by the-government.


John James Kinley: Is that provided for in the
act?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: That is provided for in the decree.


John James Kinley: Is there no statute?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: No. There is no legislature to enact statutes.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is passed by a commission.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I know, but it is not a. legislative enactment.

Salt Fish Board,


Joseph Enoil Michaud: But their regulations are not in the enactment either. I refer to the regulations made by the board and published recently. In the same way our board will *publish its regulations when made.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I am informed that it is fixed by the decree, which is the legislation, because Newfoundland is governed by a commission.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have it here.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Well, I wish the hon. gentleman had laid it on the table or given information as to its contents.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Why should I lay on
the table a statute passed in another country regarding matters similar to those we are considering? That has never been done.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Why? Because the government has taken the ground in this debate that one reason why this bill is brought before the house is that the Newfoundland government is giving bonuses to fishermen in respect of exports of fish which in certain markets enters into competition with ours.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Not only the Newfoundland government, but the Norwegian government and others.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I was referring distinctly
to the Newfoundland government. We should have clear and definite information as to what these bonuses are 'which are given by foreign governments with which we are in competition, and the manner in which they are applied.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Let us frame our own legislation.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: While my vote is not
important, I will vote to place Canadian fishermen in an equally favourable position with the fishermen of Norway or Newfoundland in markets in which Canadian fishermen are in competition with Norwegian or Newfoundland fisheries. But over and above that I am not prepared to bonus exporters of .fish as exporters.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Neither are we.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: You are doing it by this
act. The bill, by the way it is drawn, clearly started out to give a bonus to exporters. If not, why distort the English language so as to call a fisherman an exporter? Why deal with a man who does not export fish as if he were an exporter? Why not use ordinary, plain English which we all understand?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Because we want to
make him export and to pay him for doing so. We want to bonus him to be an exporter.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I have great respect for
my hon. friend, but he will exercise in vain his personal influence and the influence of his department to make the shore fisherman, from Lunenburg to Canso strait, an exporter. He never was an exporter and he will not be an exporter under this bill. The only way in which he can become an exporter is through paragraph (c), which provides that, with the approval of the governor in council, the board may enter into an agreement with any exporter providing for the sale by the board, for such exporter, of fish during any marketing season. In other words, you are making provision, not for the purpose solely of examining into the best methods of curing fish, nor into the best methods of giving assistance in marketing to the fisherman-who is here called the exporter-


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The fisherman who
exports fish.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: But the fisherman does not
export fish.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We will make him export fish.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: But you cannot make him
export fish. The fisherman along that coast has never exported his fish. He is.so poor, with such a mean income, that the only way he can live from day to day and week to week-


The CHAIRMAN:: Order. It is one o'clock.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Please let me finish the
sentence. The only way he can live from day to day and week to week is to sell his fish daily to anyone who will buy.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: And the board will subsidize him to export it.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have the following amendment which I shall ask my colleague to move:
That in paragraph (a) of section 6, at line 33, after the word " value," the words "as estimated or found by the board" be added.


Mr. McLARTY:: I so move.
Salt Fish Board


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: How does that affect the individual fisherman along that coast? He may make an arrangement with the board to export his catch. In framing the measure the minister had in mind the possibility of a board which would export for the fisherman. How will the amendment affect those fishermen? Is it contemplated that under the measure the board will value the fisheries products of each fisherman who enters into the export trade, and pay him directly twenty-five per cent of the value of his fishery products, as estimated or found by the board?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: That seems to me to be difficult of application.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It would be difficult.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: And the minister agrees as to the difficulty. Why would it not be better to reserve the bill a day and consider whether or not the government might proceed on the basis of the Newfoundland decrees, whereby they decree that a certain price shall be paid the fisherman by the person who purchases the fish for export, and that the exporter shall be entitled to certain other allowances in respect of that quantity when exported? Then if the price obtained is not sufficient to cover the price paid the fisherman, plus fixed allowances, the government would pay to the exporter the difference, so that he would not lose on the transaction. That is the Newfoundland scheme, and it is workable. I admit the scheme before the committee is workable so far as bank fishermen are concerned, but it seems to me difficult of application in respect of those hundreds of individuals along the coast of Nova Scotia who go out in the morning, fish during the day and return at sundown with their catch, a part of which they may be able to sell to purchasers of fresh fish for domestic or export trade, and another part of which, if not sold fresh, must be dried or pickled. It is that man whose interests chiefly concern me, because in years gone by, and in recent years, travelling around that coast, I have seen his misery.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I assure the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George that much consideration and thought has been given to the Newfoundland legislation, and that the department has come to the conclusion that the legislation we now propose would be easier land cheaper of administration than the method adopted in Newfoundland. We must not overlook the fact that there are certain constitutional limitations to whatever action we may take.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: What are they?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: They are these: First of all, we cannot enact compulsory legislation which could apply to fish marketed or prepared for market in Quebec, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick and the Magdalen Islands.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I am not so sure about that.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is possible that my hon. friend may not be sure about it, and I should have liked to share his doubts or even his conviction to the contrary. Unfortunately I had to come to the conclusion that there were limitations, and that we could not overstep those limitations without subjecting ourselves to the risk of nullification of our good intentions.
The hon. member will notice that the Newfoundland legislation is compulsory, and is composed of three factors: First, the fisherman must make himself a member of the fishing society or cooperative organization, and take out a licence to fish. Second, the board has complete power to prevent anyone who does not comply with regulations from exporting fish, and third, it has the further power to exact penalties for violation of the provisions. The measure is compulsory, and those who wish to derive any benefit from the Newfoundland legislation are compelled to come under the jurisdiction of the board and pay a set price to the fishermen. Then only are they entitled to compensation for whatever losses they may have in the export or sale of goods on which they have paid a compulsory price to the fishermen.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Is it not true that under this bill the exporter of fish-I am referring to the man who actually exports-will have to do certain things and conform to certain regulations similar to the regulations in Newfoundland in order to share in the bonus or assistance provided by this bill?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, but it is the intention of the bill to grant the benefits only to those exporters who comply with the regulations. However, the bill is not compulsory.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I do not think it would prove to be a hardship to make the exporters who' will come under this bill-again I am referring to the real exporters-take out a nominal licence so that their names and addresses would be known. The licence to export issued in Newfoundland is nominal in character. As I understand it, while a man is not prevented from exporting fish without a licence, if he wishes to take advantage of the bonus or the assistance given by the government he must take out the nominal licence and comply with the regulations imposed upon all licencees.

Salt Fish Board


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think my hon. friend will find that under the Newfoundland legislation no one can export salt or dried fish unless he is licensed. A man is penalized for exporting without having first taken out a licence. In this country there are other restrictions, such as those imposed by geography. For example, the assistance to be rendered under this bill may not necessarily be the same in the case of a fisherman on the Labrador coast or the Magdalen islands as it would in the case of the Lunenburg fishermen. The intention of the short amendment I have suggested is to make this clearer and enable the board to deal with the fishermen in each section in a manner that will be most suitable to the local circumstances.
It has been said that in some sections it would be of more benefit to the fishermen if advances in kind were made instead of a bonus being paid on the quantity of fish exported during or at the end of the season. An advance of salt at the beginning of the season has been suggested in order to enable the fishermen to prepare and cure their fish. This would be the most practical method of helping the fishermen along the north shore of the St. Lawrence and on the Gaspe coast. With the twenty-five per cent limitation in mind we want to empower the board to make a rough estimate of the market value of the fish in order that advances may be made at or from the beginning of the season either in the form of money or in materials such as salt. This would provide assistance for the fishermen who otherwise would not be able to put up any salt fish during the season.
It was felt by the department and others connected with the fisheries that a single method of assistance could not be made applicable to all fishermen. As I said before, the fishermen on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, on the Gaspe coast and along the Labrador coast must be dealt with differently. The fishermen on the Magdalen islands must also be dealt with in a different manner. The fishermen on the Magdalen islands and along the north shore of New Brunswick have claimed that the best method of assisting them would be for the board to absorb the cost of transportation from the point of production to Halifax, from which port exportations of fish to the south are usually made. This is why section 6 has been drafted in its present form.


Henry Herbert Stevens: After all, this is the main section of the bill and. as I read it I am impressed with the thought that the government and the minister, in an effort to assist the fishing industry of the maritimes, concluded that if there could be an expansion in
exports the benefits of such expansion would' work back to the fishermen. In a very~ general way, that is a sound deduction to-make. Therefore, in framing the bill they decided that the best plan was to bonus the-exporter, and, subject to these minor explanations which have been made but which are not in the bill, it is hoped that the benefits-which will accrue to the exporter will be equitably distributed back to the producer.. In my opinion there is a definite objection to that theoretical approach to the problem. The element of human nature enters into the-question. While I would not for one moment want to reflect upon a class of persons such as-exporters, with our knowledge of human nature we must realize that a bonus cannot be paid to an ultimate exporter with the assurance that a reasonable and equitable proportion will voluntarily be translated back to an inarticulate and unorganized producer. To* my mind that is the weakness in the philosophy of this legislation.
Let me approach it from another point of view. Undoubtedly there is in the minds of all of us a desire to help a most needy person,, namely, the primary producer. He is the-person whom we want to benefit. Speaking for myself, I should never be inclined to support legislation for the purpose of bonusing some business concern. My theory is that a business concern is quite able to look after itself. But when we come to deal with the worker who is unable under present-day-economic conditions to protect himself, then I think parliament is justified in entering the-picture. If we examine this section I think we will find that in spite of the fact that the term "exporter" has been broadened-


James Lorimer Ilsley: In my opinion it has not-been broadened at all.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I was trying t-o give the government a little credit, but I shall retract that statement. In spite of the fact that the term "exporter" as defined in the bill is in my opinion wholly inadequate to meet the situation, what we are doing in effect is benefiting exporters. We have the pious hope that under paragraph Ob) of section 6 regulations of some sort will be designed which will carry that 'benefit back to the other parties" to the transaction, the producer, the drier,, the salter and what not. But it is only a-pious hope. If you will read paragraph (bl you will find there is nothing statutory to-say that it shall be done. We simply say that the board may pass regulations and from time to time vary the terms and conditions.. Vary what terms and conditions? We do not state any terms and conditions. It is another illustration of the loose draftsmanship that
[DOT]4670
Salt Fish Board

characterizes modern legislation passing through this house. The old theory of legislation was that every statute must set *out clearly the powers and rights and privileges conferred-the powers to do and the rights to enjoy. Then the administrators of the statute would be empowered to make regulations " not inconsistent with the terms of the act "-that was the expression commonly used. But you do not say that here. The minister, very generously and in a kindly spirit, expressed the hope that when this board was formed certain benefits would find their way back to the producer. He says he intends that they should. But I must remind him that what is in his mind and in his heart is not law. It has no statutory power. It is not an instruction to do. There is nothing [DOT]obligatory upon the board to do it. It is, as the legislation is drafted, merely permissible. There is nothing more or less than a pious hope that it will be done.
There is another objection to the manner in which this bill is drafted. No board operating under this statute, I care not how fine the men are or how good-hearted or how wise they may be, can possibly be immune from prejudices of one kind and another which [DOT]enter into the administration of law. One of the things which administrators are up against *every day, and the minister knows it, is the importunity of friends and the pressure of interests of various kinds; and his protection invariably is, "Well, I am very sorry I cannot do it, because it is contrary to the law." Now this board, which is to have more or less of a free hand, will be subjected to all the pressure and influences to which I have just referred. So I think this clause ought to be redrafted in order to make it clear, in the first place, that the benefits to be derived from the grant of $800,000 are to accrue by law to the exporter, if you like, but also-and this should be explicitly stated in the section-to the producer and the intermediate processor.
In the second place we should set out in *statutory form in paragraph (b) the groundwork for the regulations. I know the argument -I have heard it too long not to know it- that you cannot put into a statute phraseology that will be sufficiently elastic. But that is not so. You can fix the principles of the -legislation, then you can give wide powers, prescribing what shall be done, when it shall be done, and how it shall be done, so long as it is not inconsistent with the powers and rights conferred.
I am sorry to differ from the minister, but frankly I do not believe this measure will achieve what be has in his mind, as expressed by himself in kindly and courteous terms both to-day and on a previous occasion.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The solicitude and concern of the hon. member (Mr. Stevens) for the welfare of the individual fisherman is to be commended, but I may tell him that his is no greater than that of members of this government. He claims that the act is drafted, if not with the intention, at least with the effect of benefiting the exporter. That may be true in a sense, but upon the meaning of "exporter" apparently we do not agree. The act is drawn and presented for the approval of the house for the purpose of benefiting a class of fishermen who will direct part of their catch of fish to the salt fish branch of the industry and for export. This must not be overlooked. In order to attain that object we have defined the person who shall be entitled to benefit. We designate him as an "exporter," but not giving to the word "exporter" its general meaning. We have stated in section 2, paragraph (d), that "exporter" means:
... a person or cooperative group of fishermen owning fish which is afterwards exported in a salted state-
In my opinion there is no possible escape for the board from helping the person who processes fish for export.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The definition includes three distinct classes of persons as exporters, but there are no provisions for the distribution of the bonus or benefits among these three different classes of people.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I agree. In order to
enable the board to pass along the benefits of the act to any one of the three classes which we contemplate will benefit, we have enacted in section 6 that:
The board may-
(a)	give assistance to exporters-
That is, to any class of persons who come under the definition of "exporters":
-in such form and manner and to such extent as may from time to time be determined by the board and approved by the government in council, provided that the assistance given to any exporter during any marketing season shall not exceed in value twenty-five per centum of the value as estimated or found by the board at the point and time of export of the fish in respect of which such assistance is given.
(b)	with the approval of the governor in council establish by regulation and from time to time vary the terms and conditions under which assistance may be given under this section
First we are authorizing the board to give assistance and to majte regulations and determine and vary the method and the kind of assistance which shall be given to each class of people mentioned in the definition of "exporter." Further, in order to make sure

Salt Fish Board
that each and every class, and especially the weaker class, shall be benefited, we have authorized the board under paragraph (c) to act as the agent for the export of the fish put up and prepared by any person who wishes to avail himself of the benefit of that agency. It seems to me that we have provided the basis on which the board may establish regulations to benefit and assist those who want to avail themselves of the provisions of this measure, and we have provided a means whereby the board can give assistance. I admit that specific assistance to each class is not mentioned, but as I said before, that is because of the wide diversity of people that will be entitled to and will claim benefit under the act., and because it will not be possible to establish by statute the form of assistance which may be given under certain circumstances to any set or class of people.
I submit again that we have made this legislation elastic enough to enable the board to help all classes of people, and more particularly the smaller and the weaker man in the set-up, the individual shore fisherman; because the great majority of people who are devoting to this purpose the proceeds of their c-atches are small inshore fishermen, and the intention of the act is well understood by those who know local conditions. I have already stated their understanding of the meaning and purport of this proposed legislation, and the protest which they registered against it, and the attitude of this department.
I will read again, for the benefit of those who did not hear it, the telegram which was sent to me on May 10 by the president of the fisheries committee of the board of trade of Halifax, who is at the same time an exporter of fish in the sense in which the matter is being discussed. The communication reads as follows:
Board of Trade telegram yesterday based newspaper report. Have just seen bill. Definition exporter ambiguous as under definition smallest fisherman becomes exporter if he owns even one pound fish which later is sold to dealer and exported. Actually salt fish exporters are corporation individuals et cetera who conduct or intend conduct more or less regular business of shipping salt fish abroad. Bill mentions board consulting committee on marketing. In addition committee clauses changed as formerly suggested word marketing should be deleted substituting consulting on any matter pertaining to work of board.
Fletcher S. Smith.
These are the words of the exporters, who, it is claimed, stand to benefit most under this act.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: That is not necessarily final. His opinion is not decisive as to the law.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: If it is not necessarily conclusive, it is at least worth while to place it alongside the opinions of those who have expressed the contrary view. This gentleman purports to speak on behalf of the corporation exporters. He objects to the definition which we have given of the word "exporter'r because it will include the smallest fisherman. My reply to that explains my attitude-and the attitude of the government:
Your wire this date received. Do not agree-that definition exporter is ambiguous; on the contrary made for purpose of covering smalt producer. Other suggestions to be taken into consideration. With regard wire yesterday suggestions noted but am afraid cannot be-entertained. The board is to be one for the benefit of the small producer as well as the dealer and exporter.
That was my reply to the gentleman who objected to including in the meaning of "exporter" the small fisherman who puts up only one pound of fish.
I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the intention of the act is clearly set out in the definition of the word "exporter." The powers of the board are broad enough to cover all classes of people who put up salt or dried fish for export, and the powers of the board, in my humble opinion, are wide enough to enable them to give assistance to any class of exporters of salt or dried fish, whether it be the small producer, the medium or the large exporter.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The very telegram which the minister has just read bears out the apprehensions which are in my own mind regarding what will foe the practical result of this measure. Obviously the fisheries section of the board of trade of Halifax conceived that the legislation was for the benefit of exporters. I do not reflect on these gentlemen; it is human nature and it is what they call business, but when it comes to the administration of the act those gentlemen who benefit under it as exporters will look at it exactly as they indicate in that telegram, as for their benefit. In other words, their first concern is for themselves. I am not quarrelling with them, but I am seeking to show that in this legislation we need to ensure that the benefits shall gO' elsewhere.
The minister has cited the definition of "exporter" as including a fisherman or cooperative group of persons who own fish, and this is very heavily emphasized. But I want to point out that it is fish which are "afterwards exported"-those are the qualifying words. The minister expressed a little while ago the desire to anticipate the curing of fish by supplying salt to the fisherman, but under this bill as now drafted how is he
*4672
Salt Fish Board

;going to do that, when we do not know whether the fish are going into export or not? I am sure I am correct in saying that much of this fish finds its way into the warehouses at Halifax and is disposed of in 'Canada.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, not ten per cent.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I may be wrong as to the amount. At any rate it does not become *entitled to the benefits of this legislation until it is billed for export; and that may be six months or eight months after the fish is naught. Under the bill as drafted, how is the minister to advance a portion of the benefit six months before it is determined whether or not the fish are to be exported? Because in the qualifying clause it is provided that the man who owns the fish must be able to say that it is afterwards exported.
I come back to the minister's statement regarding regulations. I make this appeal to him, that in paragraph (b) there should be some definition or statutory declaration of the division of this benefit in some equitable way. The foundation at least of the regulations should be in the statute.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: With all due deference,
I am positive that it is not possible to make in advance that definition of the division. With regard to the other argument, that the board will be precluded from making [DOT]advances in kind or specie to the fisherman, I would draw the hon. member's attention to paragraph (b) which provides that the board may:
. . . with the approval of the governor in council establish by regulation and from time to time vary the terms and conditions under which [DOT] assistance may be given under this *section.
The terms and conditions will be that the person who receives advances, either at the beginning or in the course of the processing season, shall receive the benefit for that quantity of fish processed and exported either through the board or through some other [DOT]agency.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: We cannot legislate
too directly in this matter. I agree with the minister that we have not absolute jurisdiction, because while we may have jurisdiction *over the fisheries, I do not believe that our jurisdiction extends to the fish once caught. That jurisdiction belongs to the province. Under paragraph (b) of section 6 I believe the board is given a sufficiently wide power. The board may declare, before granting any bonus or assistance to exporters, that they shall raise the price to the fishermen by one-quarter
	*
of a cent or half a cent in order to qualify, and of course the exporters would have to. That would not encroach upon the jurisdiction of the province because the exporters could take advantage of it or not as they saw fit. There is nothing to compel them to come in as there is in Newfoundland.
With regard to the amendment that has been proposed, I do not quite see its purpose. Some hon. members have spoken to me with regard to this particular phase of the bill. It is said that a fisherman might have to wait six months, until the fish which he caught to-day was exported, before he could be subsidized. I do not think that is necessary. In my opinion there is no necessity for an amendment to meet a situation of that kind, because it is provided that the board may give assistance not to exceed in value twenty-five per cent "of the value" of the fish. It does not say, every pound of fish a fisherman caught six months ago or yesterday; it simply says twenty-five per cent of the value of the fish in respect of which such assistance is given. That means salt fish which is to be exported. We can set a value to-day, because there are some exports at the present time. The value in Lunenburg to-day is, I understand, S4.50 a quintal. Suppose the board says the fish is worth only S3; what is there to prevent its fixing that amount? What is there to prevent its saying that the fish is worth $6 and subsidizing on that basis? I cannot see the necessity for the amendment. If a fisherman catches a ton of fish to-day, that fish may be exported six months from now; but the question is, what is the value of exported fish to-day? We do not have to wait six months to find out, because there is to-day a market for export fish. If we were not exporting any fish at all it would be necessary to wait six months to find out what the value was, but we can fix a value to-day, not on the estimate of the board but in accordance with the market. The market price is S4.50 at Lunenburg. If the fisherman catches a ton to-day, why should he wait six months? It is not to that particular ton of fish that this provision applies, but to salt fish to be exported, and therefore we can pay him the twenty-five per cent on that ton of fish right away.


Robert Emmett Finn: It seems to me we are moving in circles. I regret exceedingly having to be on my feet so many times, but there are so very few in this house who are directly interested in this legislation as representing fishing constituencies that unless we do our duty as we conceive it the fisherman will get no benefit at all. If we cannot do our duty we should not be here. Suggestions have been

Salt Fish Board
made with reference to amending certain sections, but apart from two specific proposals, one in connection with the interpretation clause and the other with regard to the estimate in paragraph (b), nothing definite has been put before the committee. I submit -the suggestion has been made by others- that this board should be an independent body. It should not be made up of exporters; there should not be an exporter on it. If this is the desire and the will of the house, if it is what is fair and reasonable in the interests of all concerned, the fishermen, the exporters and the middlemen, I do not see why the department should relinquish its final authority. As the minister has suggested, the board has power to make recommendations to the governor in council, but I submit that the board should be an independent body. That is point number one. The minister has not intimated that there may not be exporters on the board. If there are [DOT]exporters on it, what business have they to fix the price of fish which they themselves will sell on the market that is available to them?
Another point is this. The poor fisherman, the individual fisherman, the primary producer, is *the man whom we should desire to help. If that is the will of the people, then it should be carried into effect in legislation. It should mot be taken for granted, because I believe it is what is wanted by all classes of our people, irrespective of parties or groups. I know that in the constituency I represent there are very few of the poor fishermen who have sufficient .money to become exporters, and they will be under the lash of the exporter, the man who buys the fish. They will have to sell at his price or not at all. And they cannot sell byproducts. The whole thing is in the hands of the exporters.
A telegram has been read from the chairman of the fisheries committee of the board of trade. With all deference to the Halifax board of trade, I take the responsibility for this statement, having represented that constituency for twenty-five years, that the first interest of the board of trade, or of a large number of members of particular committees [DOT]of the board of trade, is to look after number one, because they are all interested in something or other, whether railways, the transportation board with head office in Moncton, [DOT]or armchair fisheries. From the early days they have gone after the business and now they expect the business to come after them. It is suggested that this legislation is to help the poor fisherman, but, as has been rightly said, these people want to put their heels on the fishermen, those who go out and toil, who take their lives in their hands and sometimes never return. They are afraid the fishermen are going to get something; they are afraid they may become exporters and get a portion of this $800,000. I hope they do; I hope they get the major portion of it.


An hon. MEMBER:: They will not.


Robert Emmett Finn: Certainly they will not. The people who are going to find these markets are the exporters, the men with money in their pockets and money in the bank, who want a little more money. I do not blame them for that; it is only human nature, but they must be protected against themselves and we must protect those who cannot protect themselves. That should be the underlying principle of legislation of this kind. To send this bill from this house to another chamber in its present form, while it does not meet the fair wishes and aspirations of our people, will only bring heartbreak and disappointment to the fishermen who are the primary producers of Nova Scotia and the other maritime provinces. No matter in what waters they fish, whether the St. Lawrence, the bay of Chaleur or faraway British Columbia, and whether or not this legislation applies to them directly, the moment you break the hearts of the primary producers of Canada or any other country it is the beginning of the end, and a retrograde move. I am not saying this is necessarily retrograde legislation, but I am trying to point out some of the dangers and some of the shoals. What does the captain do during a fog? He stays on the bridge day and night, looking out for danger. As soon as this legislation is passed the exporter has control, and we shall be helpless until the next session of parliament. So I say it is our duty to see to it that as far as possible this legislation does what we desire. No person is infallible; I am far from infallible, but I never saw such a weak interpretation clause in any bill as we have in this measure. The interpretation clause should be . the governing, all-powerful clause, but it is not; the powerful clause is section 6, which gives this board the power to dispense $800,000 subject to regulations made by the governor in council.


An hon. MEMBER:: What do you suggest?


Robert Emmett Finn: I am not a practical fisherman, outside of catching a trout or a salmon once in a while; but it seems to me it should be possible to provide for the equitable division of this S800.000 as between the primary producer from whom the exporter purchases the fish and the exporter himself, in recognition of the work he does in obtaining markets. Then there would be some incentive to the poor fisherman, the primary producer, to go
Salt Fish Board

out and catch fish to sell to the exporter. I have lived in or near the city of Halifax all my life and I know all the exporters of fish in that city. Some of them are very fine men; others are not so good. Hon. members in this house from Nova Scotia know that to be a fact, and we must take steps to safeguard the fishermen under this legislation.
There is still another point, Mr. Chairman. I was approached not long ago by a combination of individuals whom I did not even ask to sit down. I like to be polite, but I found that these people had their lines out already wanting to absorb the Canadian National steamships running down to the West Indies, saying we had not sufficient boats. My hon. friend says "humph;" there is more than "humph" in it-a great deal more. To-day we find that the Ocean Dominion line, which is a subsidiary of the Aluminum line of New York, a United States concern, is sending boats to the West Indies, Jamaica and Cuba, the very markets we hope to make more available to our fish. It has been intimated in this house that during the coming year there will be a revision of the West Indies treaty. Under the present treaty the ships at present in operation on that line, the five Lady boats and some freight boats, were built. To-day the competition with which the Canadian National boats meet is provided by Norwegian and Swedish ships that are chartered from time to time at very low rates-


James Lorimer Ilsley: It pains me very much to have to raise a point of order, but I am interested in getting this legislation through the house for the purpose of giving some assistance to the fishing industry, and I must take the ground on behalf of the government that these observations are not in order.


Robert Emmett Finn: Then I take objection to the objection of the Minister of National Revenue. The reason I am bringing up this matter is to suggest that in distributing this $SOO,0OO for the subsidization of exports of fish, we should provide that such fish should be carried in British bottoms. What is wrong with that? Am I out of order? I suggest that I am perfectly in order.


Frederick George Sanderson: Will the hon. member resume his seat for a moment? In my opinion the point of order raised 'by the Minister of National Revenue is well taken. We are now discussing an amendment which provides that in section 6, subsection (a), line 33, after the word " value " the words " as estimated or found by the board," be added. I would ask the hon. member for Halifax to confine his remarks to the amendment.


Robert Emmett Finn: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, since the Minister of National Revenue has taken this course and raised this point of order. But perhaps a higher tribunal than this house will decide who was more in earnest in desiring to see government money well spent and Canadian sailors employed, as between the minister who raised the objection and the hon. member who desired to protect what little we have left within the confines of the province of Nova Scotia. Having said that I come back to the section. As I said before, in the main I am not differing from the Minister of Fisheries.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Robert Emmett Finn: Well, hon. members may smile,, and some may suggest that I am differing from' the minister, but I would point out to them' that my only desire is to see this legislation in proper form. I have seen so much legislation go through, not only this house, but the-legislature of Nova Scotia, through which one-could drive a four-horse team, that I feel I must take a special interest in the matter. I want this legislation to be helpful to those-whom it is intended to help. I believe it is the honest intention and desire of the-Minister of Fisheries to assist. My statements are not prompted by caprice or a desire to oppose. I am in favour of this measure,, but I should like to see it in such a form that the primary producer will be sure to-benefit from it. The Minister of National' Revenue has always been interested in the price of apples, and I have a similar interest in the export price of fish. To him I have never attributed motives other than those of' wishing to see prosperity in that part of the country from which he comes. I am prompted' by the same motives. I am interested in the-fishermen-and if I happened to bring a steamship into the discussion I hope the minister will let the ship go by.


Alan Webster Neill: Perhaps I did not understand the minister correctly when he explained the amendment. Apparently the suggestion is that the exporter can be granted assistance which shall not exceed in value, twenty-five per cent-and I presume the additional words are to be inserted after the second word " value "?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes, after the second word
" value."


Alan Webster Neill: It would then read, "shall not exceed in value twenty-five per centum of the value as estimated or found by the board at the point and time of export of the fish," and so on. In using the word "estimated" does the minister go so far as to suggest that

Salt Fish Board
the exporter might have the amount he will export estimated two or three months in advance? Would the provision go so far as to give a bonus on the fish before they are caught, for instance?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: No, it is to make sure that the board will have power to make advances of part of the twenty-five per cent before the final adjustment is made and the export value finally established. It is in order to enable the board to estimate the export value of the fish at a certain time so that they may make an advance to the fisherman.


Alan Webster Neill: Would not that almost involve estimating not only the value but the tonnage of fish?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I think not.


Alan Webster Neill: To put the discussion on as fair a basis as possible, may I say that the trouble seems to be with the meaning of the word "exporter." Several capable hon. members opposite have explained that exporter means a fisherman, while equally capable hon. members on this side have taken the dictionary sense of the word, and state that an exporter is one who exports. Surely it ought to be possible, through the legal officers of the department, to draft a definition of the word "exporter" which would meet the views of hon. members on both sides, and prevent this deadlock.
At some length and very ably about a half an hour ago the minister defended the definition of the word "exporter" as laid down in section 2. He said, in so many words, that in the bill "exporter" means the original fisherman.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It not only means that, but it says so.


Alan Webster Neill: And about two minutes after that one of his supporters, the hon. member for Kent (Mr. Robichaud) clearly differentiated between "exporter" and "fisherman," because he proposed that the board might say to the exporter that they would not give him a bonus unless he promised to give the fisherman a quarter of a cent a pound more. The hon. member made a clear differentiation between "exporter" on the one hand and "fisherman" on the other.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: I was using the word
"exporter" in the sense in which it is used by the ordinary layman. But there is no doubt that "exporter" as defined the other day includes a fisherman or a group of fishermen. Parliament has the right to say that black means white, and it is white.


Alan Webster Neill: Well, that would not be very convenient for the general public, if they are told that black means white. The hon. member says that he was using the word "exporter" in the ordinary sense. He made the suggestion the board should say to the exporterusing the term in the dictionary sense-"You will not get this assistance until you pay a quarter of a cent per pound more to the original producer." That is an excellent suggestion, and I think with a little change it would meet the objection made. Instead of saying, "You shall pay a quarter of a cent" or half a cent more, or whatever it may be, if the board would say to the exporter, "We will not pay you this bonus or assistance"-or whatever you like to call it-"unless you have first paid to the fisherman the minimum price we have already set", the difficulty would be met. That would not involve any compulsion; we should not be going outside our jurisdiction, and we should be saying that one of the conditions of giving the bonus would be, that there should have been paid to the fisherman a minimum price set previously, just as is done in Newfoundland. That would do away with all this dispute as to whether the exporter could be trusted to return a certain amount of the moneys received, and the minimum price would be set, as in the case of the Newfoundland regulations. If the hon. member for Kent had merely used the words, "you shall pay the minimum price we have already fixed"-instead of half a cent a pound more, or whatever it may be, he would have met the situation.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Is it the intention of the minister to fix the minimum price to fishermen?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: .Under paragraph (b) of section 6 the board is authorized to do it.


René-Antoine Pelletier: The board has power to do it, but is it the intention that it shall be done? We have no knowledge of what will happen unless we know what will be done. There should be some amendment to show that the individual fisherman as well as the exporter will get the benefit of this legislation.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The hon. member ought to know local conditions in order to understand the situation, otherwise it is impossible for me to make him understand it. In the maritimes salt fish is not taken, as such, out of the water. It has to be salted after'it is caught, and there is no such thing as a salt fish fisherman on the Atlantic coast.
Salt Fish Board


René-Antoine Pelletier: If it is as simple as all that, I do not understand why the minister cannot make it clear.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I cannot make it any clearer.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I suggest he is not making it clear to anybody else, because the hon. member for Comox-Alberni insists that there should be something said about the fisherman himself, and the senior member for Halifax has said the same thing. All we want to do is to protect the fisherman.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: When the hon. member spoke this morning I thought he wanted to protect the Newfoundland fisherman. Which fisherman does he wish to protect?


René-Antoine Pelletier: If my hon. friend
adopted the suggestion which I made he would protect the Canadian consumer rather than the western Cuban consumer.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: May I answer that?


René-Antoine Pelletier: Why should there be any objection to inserting the words "or to persons selling to exporters"? If the exporters gather their fish from the fishermen, what objection can there be to these words?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Because the bill is clear enough as it is, and there is no need to do it.


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: I cannot let the remarks of the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Pelletier) pass without comment. There is only one thing that is quite plain from his remarks, that is that he knows nothing about the fishing industry. He may qualify as a fish seller, but only from the way he exaggerates and brings in pictures which do not exist as far as the fishing industry is concerned, that is all. This morning he wept over this legislation because we were trying to sacrifice the Newfoundland fishermen. He told us we should not bonus our fishermen because it would mean the sacrifice of the Newfoundland fishermen. It was a terrible thing that we were going to put him out of business. Now this afternoon he comes and says that we must do more for the fishermen of the maritimes, that we must be ready to sacrifice the Newfoundland fishermen. I am sorry, but I cannot follow him at all.


Mr. COTE (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister this question: Under the bill, what would happen if a fisherman or cooperative group of fishermen who have received from the board an advance for the export of salt fish were to market this fish in Canada? What would happen to the advance?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: The fisherman would have to refund to the board any advance, received for the export of this fish; the cooperative group would be in the same position.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 7-Advances.


Mr. BRASSET:: Mr. Chairman, the great need in the fishing industry to-day is an expansion of exporting. There are several cars of codfish in the county of Gaspe to-day ready for export, but the exporters have not been able to sell them. Efforts have been made to dispose of this fish on the New York, market, but up to last week they have been unsuccessful. I spoke about this to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Michaud) and also* to the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler), and I was told that efforts would be made to find a market. Some time ago, along with the hon. member for Bona venture (Mr. Cote), I went to see the minister about this matter. At that time he told us he was preparing this present bill and we had the opportunity to discuss it with him. I told him. that I thought it was a good bill, because it indicated an effort to find markets for our fish.
In answer to the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Finn), let me say that his great concern for the fishermen is all right, but if the exporter is helped so that he is able to export more fish, the fishermen will be helped in the end. There are a few exporters in my constituency. When they cannot export fish or when there is no prospect of their being able to export, they cannot offer a fair price-to the fishermen. Unfortunately this year there were no prospects whatever and the result has been that the fishermen are doing no fishing. If there were any prospects of their being able to export, the exporters would be prepared to buy fish from the fishermen and' the industry would be in much better condition. Instead of obstructing this bill, I think we should all make an effort to have it passed' at the earliest possible moment in order that this board may go ahead with its work. I hope the minister will give some thought to the fishermen of Quebec. There is a considerable fishing industry in that province, and I think one of the members of this board should' be either from Bonaventure or from Gaspe.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8-Advisory committees.
Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have an amendment to-suggest to this section, as follows:
Section 8 is amended by striking out subsection 1 and substituting the following:

Salt Fish Board
467T
f<l- With the approval of the governor in council, the board may appoint advisory committees to advise it in connection with the marketing of fish. Each such committee shall consist of not more than three members, two of whom shall represent the fishermen-producers, and the other shall represent the dealers or exporters."
This amendment will reduce the number from five to three, and give a majority on the board to the fishermen-producers.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I move accordingly.


Robert Emmett Finn: This amendment does not provide that the representatives on the committee shall be fishermen. It simply states that they shall represent the fishermen-producers.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: If they are satisfactory to the fishermen, what is wrong with that?


Robert Emmett Finn: This does not indicate that the fishermen will be consulted. When I first read the amendment I thought that two members were to be bona fide fishermen while the other was to be a bona fide exporter, but now I see that two members are simply to represent the fishermen. I do not know whether that is the intention of the minister or whether it is just a slip.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: It is the intention to have actual fishermen as members of these committees, but it may be that they would prefer to be represented by other persons who are not actually pulling fish out of the water. My hon friend knows that along a large section of the Atlantic coast in the last three years the department has been organizing the fishermen into study and cooperative groups. In many cases these groups ask to be represented by some educated person who is not actually a fisherman. The amendment is suggested for the purpose of permitting the fishermen to designate such a person to represent them.


Robert Emmett Finn: I am perfectly satisfied.


Alan Webster Neill: I agree with the minister in that regard. I do not think it could be confined to fishermen, because, as he has suggested, they might want to put forward someone who rvas not actually a fisherman. That would indicate that they had some voice in the selection of the men, whereas the board is going to appoint them. The board does not say that it will consult the fishermen. Will the minister give us such an assurance?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I need not give any such assurance; it ought to be taken for granted. There would be no necessity for this section if it were not for the purpose of giving representation and a voice to those vitally interested.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Section as amended agreed to.
Sections 9 and 10 agreed to.
On section 11-Regulations
Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: I suppos it is the intention that the regulations shall be published in the Canada Gazette?


Joseph Enoil Michaud: Yes.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: Subsection 2 does not. say they will be published, but only that they shall take effect from the date of such publication.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: My hon. friend may rest assured that if the governor in council takes the responsibility of making regulations, he will see that they take effect.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: Why not say so? I notice that in Bill No. 104, which passed the house some time ago, it is provided:
Regulations made under this act shall be published in the Canada Gazette and shall be in force from the date of such publication or from such other date as is specified in such, publication.


James Lorimer Ilsley: There is an alternative.


Louis-Prudent-Alexandre Robichaud: But there cannot be any alternative to having them published, and the section should say that the regulation shall take effect from the date of such publication or from the date specified in the regulations. The section should decree publication. I think you should have after the word, "shall" the words "be published in the Canada Gazette", and then go on from there, "and shall take effect from the date of such, publication."


Vincent-Joseph Pottier: To clear up a point I have-in mind, the act as framed might by a stretch of imagination apply to fish brought into-Canada and then reexported. I take it there is no doubt that it will apply only to fish of Canadian origin.
Mr, MICHAUD: Oh, yes.


Alan Webster Neill: I would urge the minister
to concede the point put forward by the hon. member for Kent. Such a provision is in almost all our statutes under which regular tions are issued, providing for publication in the Canada Gazette. The minister says it is-not necessary, but I recall an instance some years ago-I cannot recall the details, but it was a regulation of the Fisheries department;
I am clear on that-where the act called for publication in the Canada Gazette and I found out some two years later that the regulation had not been published. When I called attention to it, it was inserted in the next issue of the Gazette, but it should have
Salt Fish Board

been done two years before. There cannot be any objection to accepting the simple amendment suggested by the hon. member for Kent, to make it read that such regulations shall be published in the Canada Gazette and shall take effect from the date of publication.


Sir EUGENE FISET:: I am under the impression that when such regulations are made by order in council the department is compelled to publish them in the Canada Gazette.


Alan Webster Neill: No.


Frederick George Sanderson: Shall the section carry?


Alan Webster Neill: No, Mr. Chairman, it is not going to pass until we get a definite explanation from the minister as to why the suggestion of the hon. member for Kent cannot be accepted. The regulations are to be published; they will not take effect until they are published. Why have any delay, six months or a year? I will move an amendment if the minister has not the courtesy to reply.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: I have no objection
whatever if anyone is not satisfied with the present wording, but I feel that it meets the requirements which have been stated by the hon. gentleman. It says:
(2) Such regulations shall take effect from the date of publication thereof in the Canada Gazette or from the date specified for such purpose in the regulations, and such regulations shall have the same force and effect as if enacted herein.
My hon. friend wants to change the wording to read, "such regulations shall be published in the Canada Gazette and shall take effect on the date of publication."


Alan Webster Neill: Shall be published forthwith.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: You cannot publish them forthwith, because they have to be enacted before they can be published.


James Lorimer Ilsley: There may be times when
it would be desirable to have the regulations take effect immediately, the day they are passed, or the next day, or something of that kind. That is the reason for the alternative clause, "or from the date specified for such purpose in the regulations." Those words should remain in. Probably that is what the minister has in mind.


Joseph Enoil Michaud: We could say, "Such
regulations shall be published in the Canada Gazette and take effect from the date of such publication or from the date specified for such purpose in the regulations."
Mr. ILSLEY':	I move accordingly.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.

Section as amended agreed to.
Section 12 agreed to.
Bill reported.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
MINES AND RESOURCES Dominion fuel board.
129. Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council, $3,500,000.
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Mines and Resources):: This item was discussed at considerable length the other evening and was allowed to stand.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Have any changes been made recently in the subventions formerly granted on the movement of maritime coal to Ontario markets?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There has been no change in the principle on which the subventions are based.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I understand that the
coal committee of the Department of Mines and Resources met a representative committee of the mining industry in the mari-times which was seeking to have the present amount of subsidies paid altered. Will the minister give the committee some information concerning these negotiations?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The explanation was given the other evening when this item was previously under consideration. Representations on behalf of the operators and of the men from Nova Scotia were made to the subcommittee of the cabinet. As I stated the other evening, representations from western coal interests were made also. They were to the effect that, because of the conditions existing in the United States, particularly the demoralization of their bituminous coal industry, the subventions paid in Canada should be increased to permit of the operation of the principle upon which they were based and to carry out the original intention. As was explained before, that is the reason for the increase in the amount to be voted this year.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Last year when this
item was under discussion I suggested to the minister that there might be some room for improvement of the market for Alberta coal by extending it in the states to the south of that province. The minister replied at that time that nothing was being done by his department to attempt to secure improved

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board
markets for Alberta coal. Since that time has the minister taken any steps to enlarge that market?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No steps have been taken.
It is a nice point, if indeed any responsibility lies upon the department, how far it should busy itself in finding markets in the United States for Alberta coal. The fuel board has not taken on that responsibility. In other words it is the business of the people who are producing coal to find markets for it.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I cannot agree with the minister. We have just been considering a bill to assist fishermen to find markets for their fish, and I cannot see any reason for discrimination as between the coal producers of Alberta and the fishermen of the mari-times. I suggest that some improvement of the market for Alberta coal might be possible in the direction I have mentioned. From time to time the minister is asked to increase the subvention on coal for Alberta. Apparently the operators there are seeking to establish a market in Ontario and eastern Canada. There might be a way out of the dilemma for the minister if he could find markets in the western United States, which are nearer to Alberta than eastern Canada is. I do not agree that it is not the responsibility of the department to attempt to help out our coal industry. We are putting into effect in every other branch of industry this principle of government assistance, and it should also be available to the coal producers of Alberta.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some coal, although not a
very large quantity, is shipped from Alberta to the states immediately to the south of that province. The matter could receive consideration, but the consuming market which Alberta coal could reach is very limited.


René-Antoine Pelletier: In Montana, for
example.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount I referred to a moment ago goes, I am informed, to the states of Montana and Washington. I assume that the operators in Alberta are trying to expand that market, and if there is any assistance which the department can give them, by way of advice or information or anything of the kind, we shall be very glad to do so. But I repeat, it is a question whether or not we should go further than this. Apparently the hon, member thinks that the government should, but in the past it has been regarded as the business of companies producing coal to find their own markets and their own customers.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I do not consider that the minister should attribute that opinion to me. A few moments ago we applied in the case of fishermen this principle of government assistance, and essentially, speaking of natural resources, the producer of coal is on the same level as the producer of fish, or any other primary producer. If it is a good thing for one class of producer, if we accept the principle for one class, we should accept it for others so long as they are in the primary producing classification. However, that is a debatable point into which I am not going to enter at this time. I wished to know from the minister whether there is any possibility of securing a market for Alberta coal in Dakota, the next state east of Montana.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that North Dakota produces enough lignite coal of its own to meet its requirements.


Mr. COLDWELL:: Before we leave this item there are one or two questions I wanted to ask the minister; unfortunately I was detained in the banking and commerce committee. Last ye^r, in dealing with these estimates, as reported at page 4493 of Hansard, the then leader of the opposition made this comment:
It is fundamental that the great enterprise in Cape Breton should not be utilized for stockjobbing exploitation by the use of any part of the moneys which we pay in large sums-large sums, mark you!-to assist in employment on that island. This money should not be used to advance the interests and stock-jobbing ambitions of those who have been responsible for some of the happenings which are now before the courts of this country. I give the minister timely warning in order that he may take steps to see that the government is protected by appropriate action, and by doing so he will prevent what I regard as a very serious matter and ensure that these subsidies, heavy as they are, are utilized for the purpose of providing for employment and the development of a fuel policy that will enable this coal from Nova Scotia to be utilized as it now is in the consuming markets of upper Canada.
The minister replied:
My right hon. friend's statement is the first I have heard of the matter. I understand two of the companies mentioned are in financial difficulty or liquidation. I quite agree with the general principle he has enunciated. Certainly I would be the last one in this house to support the payment of public moneys for stockjobbing propositions of any kind.
Mr. Bennett:	I believe that; that is the
reason I bring the matter up here.
Mr. Crerar:	I shall be glad to get some
information in regard to what my right hon. friend has said.
Did the minister make some inquiry regarding that statement of Mr. Bennett last year, and if so with what result? As a matter of fact I looked up the Annual Financial Review

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board

for 1938, particularly at page 653, where there is a statement with regard to these various companies and the values of their stocks at different periods in different years. I traced the corresponding month through three different years, and I was puzzled, after the reference which was made here to stockjobbing operations, at something I found there. I found, for example, that in May, 1933, the price of stock of the Dominion Coal Company was $4 per share; in 1934 it had risen to $81 per share; in May, 1935, it had risen to $138. The high, as at February, 1935, was $140. These subventions were paid largely because of the terrible conditions which existed in the industry in Nova Scotia and because the condition of the miners was desperate. I have not been in Nova Scotia but I have read a great deal in the newspapers about the serious conditions in some of the Nova Scotia mining	areas-for example, at Thorburn,
where I believe a mine was closed and all the people were placed in a position of dire poverty. Are we paying these subventions and subsidies in order that employment may be given and conditions improved for those who work in the mines? If so, I should like to know whether that is being done. I was told that the salaries paid in some of these organizations have been, if they are not now, very high. I understand that the late chairman of the board of the Dominion Coal Company, Sir Newton Moore, who before the war was engaged in the handling of shipments of ore to Germany, was brought over after the war and as chairman received something like $65,000 a year. It occurred to me after I heard that to ask whether these subsidies were really going where the house desires to have them go, namely, for the improvement of the conditions of those who labour in the mining field. An hon. member reminds me that there was a royal commission in Nova Scotia which inquired into the industry, and I would ask the minister whether he looked into the matter, and if so, what his findings were with respect to the statement made last year in this house.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The operations of these companies are a matter of public knowledge, so far as the values of stocks are concerned. As to the salaries paid officials, we have not made any inquiries.


Robert Emmett Finn: They are not published.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It may not have been made public. If I understand the hon. member rightly, he takes the position that we should say to the coal companies, "You must do certain things with regard to stock transactions and certain

things with regard to the payment of salaries, or you will not receive any subventions." May I point out again that that is not the basis on which the subvention principle was first established. The principle was established in order to assist the movement of Nova Scotia coal into Ontario, say, to put it on a competitive basis with coal from the United States; and whether the Nova Scotia coal companies producing the coal were earning profits or paying big salaries bore no relation to that question. We could say to the Dominion Coal Company or to any other coal company in Nova Scotia, "You have a good balance sheet and you are earning large profits, therefore we will not pay the subvention." Their reply would be, "Well, we are not going to move coal into Ontario at a loss." The subvention principle is based upon the theory of paying a part of the transportation costs to the consuming point. If we insisted upon trying to give practical effect to the suggestion made, the net result probably would be to throw a good many people out of work in the Nova Scotia mines. So far as my knowledge goes, when the subvention principle was first adopted it was not because the coal companies were in a difficult way in the matter of profits; not at all. It was simply to facilitate the production of more coal in Nova Scotia and to give employment to a greater number of men and to keep them more steadily employed. The officials inform me that this statement is correct.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How much coal went into Ontario last year as a result of the subventions?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last year, 689,493 tons.


Abraham Albert Heaps: To Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I repeat, that was the principle upon which the subvention was based. We might lay down conditions with regard to the payment of subventions, but if we did the result would be that the companies would reply, "Under the circumstances we do not care to move coal to Ontario points." They certainly would not move it at a loss. The purpose for which the subventions were started, namely, to find a market for additional coal, thus affording more and steadier employment to miners in Nova Scotia, would therefore be defeated.


Major James William Coldwell: The subsidies are given to enable the movement of Canadian coal into central provinces in order that it may compete with coal which might otherwise be brought in from some other country. That is the purpose of the subsidy. But in arriving

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board
at a competitive price for the coal, surely all the costs of operation enter into what the price must be at the point where the coal is consumed; and if these companies are overcapitalized or are paying unduly high salaries to chairmen, presidents and other officials, or if they are carrying bankrupt subsidiary companies, then all these factors enter of necessity into the price structure. I am going to read the principal sentences in the exchange that took place between the minister and Mr. Bennett in regard to this question. I quote from Hansard of June 30, 1938, at page 4493:
I give the minister timely warning in order that he may take steps to see that the government is protected by appropriate action, and by doing so he will prevent what I regard as a very serious matter and ensure that these subsidies, heavy as they are,-
I draw particular attention to the words that follow:
-are utilized for the purpose of providing for employment and the development of a fuel policy that will enable this coal from Nova Scotia to be utilized as it now is in the consuming markets of upper Canada.
The minister replied:
I quite agree with the general principle he has enunciated. ... I shall be glad to get some information in regard to what my right hon. friend has said.
I should like to see these subsidies made helpful to those who should be helped by them. I am not opposing the subsidies; they are probably essential to the Nova Scotia coal industry. The point, however, is that the people who ought to benefit should be benefited. I call the minister's attention to the matter to urge upon him the importance of this consideration. I read last summer, not only in the Nova Scotia press but in the Ontario newspapers, some articles by a Mr. Dingman and others, with regard to conditions in the coal mining area of Nova Scotia, and it occurred to me that when the estimates were under consideration this particular matter should be brought to the attention of the house and that the minister should be asked exactly what information he had secured in the interval.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The departmental officials are in touch with the costs of producing coal. We know nothing about stock jobbing or anything else of the kind referred to by the hon. member. As to salaries, I do not know what salaries the Dominion Coal Company pays its officials, or for that matter any of its employees, and I really cannot see what bearing that has on the matter, unless my hon. friend wishes to imply that we should make it a condition of the granting of sub-71492- 294i
ventions for the movement of coal that the company shall not do certain things and that it shall pay certain salaries. We cannot do that. We cannot tell the coal companies the conditions under which they shall operate any more than we can go to my hon. friend's farm and tell him the conditions under which he is to run it.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Are we not paying these companies through subventions, practically one-quarter of the cost of producing that coal, in order that they may compete in the markets of central Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I could not say what the percentage is.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I think it is about twenty-five per cent.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that it runs something over twenty-five per cent of the cost of mining coal. But again, what bearing has that on the matter? Does my hon. friend suggest that we should attach conditions to the payment of subventions? That is what I should like to know.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I think the point of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar is well taken, that if high salaries and other expenditures tend to increase enormously the cost of producing coal, it becomes so much more difficult for these people to compete in a neutral market and makes it necessary for the government to pay higher subventions. The minister seems to have missed that point.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have the break-down of costs, showing the administrative costs, and I am informed that it does not bear out the suggestion of my hon. friend. But again I come back to the question: Does the hon member for Winnipeg North suggest that we should lay down certain conditions as to salaries and similar matters as a basis for the payment of subventions for the movement of coal?


Abraham Albert Heaps: What I do suggest is that since the government is granting a subvention to an industry in order to permit it to compete in a neutral market, the government Should have before it the full facts in regard to the production costs of that industry.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have the full facts.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If in the opinion of the
government there are expenditures which cannot be justified, then I suggest that before subsidies or subventions were granted -it would be reasonable for the government to say they could not grant such subventions until such time as certain costs which might
Supply-Mines-Fuel Board

increase the cost of production had been reduced. I do not think there would be anything unreasonable in a request of that kind.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have a break-down of general costs for the Nova Scotia industry, divided under the following headings: labour, stores, power, insurance, taxes, royalties, rents, workmen's compensation, administration, interest, miscellaneous expense, depreciation, depletion, income tax and finally the cost of coal f.o.b. cars, the cost of distribution and the total debits against each ton of coal. That is for the entire industry of Nova Scotia.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Would the minister be good enough to let us have those figures making up the cost of production of a ton of coal at the mouth of the mine?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In 1933 the total of the
items I enumerated a moment ago was $4.22 a ton.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is that run of the mine?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That was the total cost
against a ton of coal at the mine.


Abraham Albert Heaps: What quality of coal would
that be?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Run of mine coal.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: How is
that figure made up?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is made up of the items I mentioned a moment ago.


Major James William Coldwell: Would the minister
place the table on Hansard?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that there
would be no objection to that. The figures
for 1933 were as follows:
Per ton
Labour	$2.09
Stores		.44
Insurance	01
Power	31
Taxes	08
Royalty	09
Rents	02
Workmen's compensation	06
Administration	13
Interest	17
Miscellaneous expense	04
Depreciation	23
Depletion	01
Income tax	
Cost f.o.b. cars	 3.68
Distribution cost	54
Total cost	$4.22
The administration charge of 13 cents a ton does not strike me as a very heavy cost. The figure for the whole of Canada is 14
.(Mr. Heaps.]
cents, and for Nova Scotia it is only 13 cents. It will be noticed that no income tax was charged. Apparently no profits were earned and consequently no taxes paid.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Are those figures for the
entire province of Nova Scotia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The figures are for all the mines of Nova Scotia for 1933.


Mr. MARSHALL:: Has the minister the
figures for Alberta?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Do I understand that it
is desired that this table be placed on Hansard?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yes.


Mr. PERLEY:: Has the minister similar
figures for Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think we have nearly
everything here; if we have time I think we can secure the answer to almost any question. For bituminous coal in Alberta the 1933 figures were as follows:
Per ton
Labour	$1.74
Stores	26
Power	24
Insurance	03
Taxes	04
Royalty	07
Rents	03
Workmen's compensation	08
Administration	22
Interest	05
Miscellaneous expense	05
Depreciation	23
Depletion	10
Income tax..'	04
Cost f.o.b. cars	 3.18
Distribution cost	08
Total charges per ton	$3.26


James Alexander Marshall: Are those the latest
figures available?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; I have them down
to 1937.


James Alexander Marshall: I should like to have the latest figures.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Shall I read them all?


Major James William Coldwell: Let us have the cost of producing a ton of coal.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In Nova Scotia the total costs of producing a ton of coal have been as follows:
1933		$4.22
1934		 4.06
1935		 4.21
1936		 4.12
1937		 4.19

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board
The corresponding figures for Alberta are as follows:


George Halsey Perley: What are the Saskatchewan costs?
1934
1936


Major James William Coldwell: Does the department
lay down a particular method of arriving at labour and administration costs, and in the comparison between Alberta and Nova Scotia are the administrative and labour costs compiled in exactly the same way? It would be interesting to have a break-down of those costs to see what is charged in each case. In one instance we may find administration costs charged to labour, or vice versa.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The same formula is applied to each, I am informed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total costs per ton in
Saskatchewan are as follows:
1934
1936


Charles Edward Johnston: Would the minister place the complete tables on Hansard, so that we may study them more carefully for the different provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Alberta Bituminous
1933 ..	1,730,855	1	74	0-26	0-24	0-03	004	0-07	0-03	0-08	0-22	0-05	0-05	0-23	0-10	0-04	3-18	0-08	3 26	3-10	0-12	0	13	3 35	+0-091934....	1.876,751	1	72	0-27	0-24	0-03	0-05	0-07	0-03	0-08	0-21	0-02	0-04	0 23	0-10	005	314	0-06	3-20	3-09	0-14	0	17	3-40	+0-201935	2,196,538	1	699	0-262	0-208	0-026	0-038	0-056	0-025	0-080	0172	0-011	0-035	0-200	0 103	0 034	2-949	0-049	2-998	2-885	0-100	0	130	3-115	+0-1171936 ...	2,226,301	1	681	0-262	0-189	0-022	0-045	0-059	0-023	0 084	0-164	0-009	0-017	0-201	0-109	0-039	2-905	0-055	2-960	2-739	0-101	0	113	3-007	+0-047i937	2,498,075	1	647	0-256	0-199	0-020	0-042	0-053	0-021	0-092	0-156	0-009	0-022	0-176	0-113	0-030	2-836	0-052	2-888	2-751	0-097	0	137	2-985	+0-097
Nova Scotia
1933 ...	4,379,760	2-09	0-44	0 31	0-01	0-08	0-09	0-02	0-06	0-13	0 17	0-04	0-23	0-01	0-00	3-68	0-54	4-22	3-74	0 31	0-08	4-13	-0 091934	6,262,194	2-10	0-50	0-26	0 01	0-05	0-10	0-02	0-05	0-10	0-11	0-03	0-17	0-01	0-00	3-51	0-55	4-06	3-57	0-46	0-09	4-12	+0-061935	5,830,003	2-189	0-488	0-275	0-005	0-057	0-106	0-008	0-082	0-137	0-113	0-035	0-176	0-007	0-001	3-679	0-540	4-219	3-793	0-243	0-100	4-136	-0 0831936	6,615,812	2-115	0-429	0-248	0-004	0 050	0-105	0-022	0-079	0-117	0-098	0-040	0-263	0-006	0 015	3-590	0-534	4-124	3-661	0-313	0-092	4-065-	-0-0591937....	7.138,471	2-279	0-466	0-244	0-004	0-047	0-107	0-013	0-086	0-118	0-086	0-047	0-188	0-007	0-002	3-694	0-500	4-194	3-839	0-214	0-079	4-131	-0-063
New Brunswick
1933	284,007	1-96	0-26	0-06	0 01	0-02	0	12	0-00	0	12	0-23	0-04	0 12	0	13	0-08	0-02	3-18	0-18	3-36	3 33	0-05	0-11	3-50	+0-14307,267	2-06	0-34	0-07	0-01	0-02	0	11	0-00	0	13	0-26	0-04	0-06	0	14	0-08	0-01	3 33	0-11	3-44	3-30	0-06	0-11	3-47	+0-031935	329,259	2-145	0 349	0-071	0 014	0-019	0	110	0-012	0	137	0-265	0-042	0-025	0	141	0-078	0-004	3-418	0-124	3-542	3-282	0-047	0-104	3-433	-0-106345 521	2-006	0 343	0-087	0-016	0-022	0	130	0 008	0	132	0-240	0-010	0-037	0	198	0-059	0-004	3-304	0-102	3-406	3-232	0-061	0-091	3-384	-0-0221937....	342,213	2-095	0-394	0-088	0-015	0-023	0	115	0-008	0	132	0-254	0 Oil	0-029	0	160	0-082	0-013	3-419	0-096	3-515	3-316	0-050	0-058	3-424	-0-091
Supply-Mines-Fuel Board

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board


Major James William Coldwell: Did the minister make any inquiry regarding matters raised last year by Mr. Bennett, particularly with regard to the capitalization of these companies? Is there any explanation for the tremendous change in the value of the stock, from $4 in 1933 to S140 in February, 1935?


Mr. HARTIGAN:: I do not think that is
correct.


Major James William Coldwell: I shall be glad to have the information from anyone who can explain it.


David James Hartigan: I do not think the hon. member's figures are right.


Frederick George Sanderson: I would ask hon. members to direct their questions through the chair.


Major James William Coldwell: These figures would
seem to present an extraordinary situation.


Mr. McCULLOCH:: Would the hon. member permit a question?


Major James William Coldwell: Not a question; I
could not answer a question in this connection.


Henry Byron McCulloch: The common stock of the Dominion Steel and Coal Company is quoted at $9.50 to $11.50, and the preferred stock at $16 to $18.


Major James William Coldwell: That is something else that is rather interesting. As I understand it there were changes in connection with the ownership about this particular time, and a group of gentlemen-Holt, Gundy, and so on-did something with these companies. I wonder if a great deal of the difficulty in some of the areas does not relate to the point which has been made so frequently, that our industries are victimized by people who are stock-jobbers, and who are fleecing the workers and investors. That is the reason I have raised the point to-day. I cannot understand the situation at all.


Henry Byron McCulloch: Mr. Chairman, this is the first time I have taken the time of the house at this session, and I shall take only a few minutes. I represent the county of Pictou. In that county we have three towns which depend on coal mining. The miners in those towns have worked less than halftime for the last few years, and quite often only one or two days per week. The other day I received a resolution passed by the town of Westville stating that No. 2 mine had worked only forty days since the first of the year.
So far as the subvention is concerned I would say that it will help only those mines which have an outlet by water, and that the
mainland mines will receive very little benefit. The mainland miners depend mostly on railway orders for their work. I know a great many of these men and have always found them te be good citizens and workmen. If the subvention could be arranged so as to help the mainland miners to work four or five dtj's a week, it would greatly relieve the situation.
I understand the Dominion Coal Company and its subsidiaries are gradually relinquishing their commitments in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick with the aim of transporting tonnages so released to markets in Quebec and Ontario. If this scheme can be carried out, I have no doubt it will help the mainland miners in Nova Scotia. In that province fuel oil is to a large extent taking the place of coal, and as a royalty of 12J cents a ton on coal has to be paid to the Nova Scotia government, it is difficult to compete with oil, because, as I understand it, there is no tax on fuel oil.
I have before me a schedule secured from the secretary of the fuel board in Ottawa, setting out an analysis of the coal mining situation in Nova Scotia, indicating the depths of mines, the number of miles they have to go under the sea, and so on. If I could secure the permission of hon. members I should like to place this little schedule on Hansard. I would save considerable time by so doing, and I believe many hon. members would find it informative.


Major James William Coldwell: What does the schedule show?


Henry Byron McCulloch: It shows analyses of coals in Nova Scotia, and the situation with respect to freight rates, general mining conditions, and so on.


Frederick George Sanderson: With the unanimous consent of the committee it might be placed on Hansard.


Henry Byron McCulloch: It is as follows:
Some Facts with Respect to the Nova Scotia Coal Industry Characteristics and Analysis
Bituminous coal produced in Nova	Scotia
varies considerably in quality as the following typical analysis indicates:
From
Fixed carbon	 54 % to 58%
Volatile matter	 29 % to 37%
Ash	
54% to	18%Sulphur	
1 % to	8%B.T.U.'s	
12,000 to 14,300Ash fusion	
1,900 to	2.700
Suitability
For general steam raising uses in industry, shipping and railways, it is quite satisfactory and the coal produced in the Sydney area is also suitable for coking and gas making; mainland coals are not coking coals.
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Unsuitability
Certain industries require a low sulphur coal as the presence of sulphur affects the quality of the product. To mention some: Glass making- brick making-gasworks-and for certain metallurgical purposes.
The low fusion point of a6h is also detrimental when coal is used under heavy forced draft with consequent high furnace temperature, the ash fuses and blocks the air passages in the grate and for furnaces designed for high fusion ash coals Nova Scotia coal is not suitable.
Production
From eight to nine million tons can be produced annually.
Actually, production for the past three five-year periods has been as follows:
From	Net tons
1923-1927	 6,496,000
1928-1932	 6,003,000
1933-1937	 6,104,000
Distribution
The principal markets for Nova Scotia coal are the maritime provinces-Newfoundland- Quebec and Ontario.
Consumption of Coal
Consumption has not remained constant in proportion to business conditions, it is steadily declining in relation to per capita of population.
The decline is in part due to consumers turning to alternative fuels or other sources of energy, also there has been a remarkable trend toward increased efficiencies in the use of coal.
Energy other than coal expressed in equivalent tonnage shows an increase in Canada from 18.592,000 tons in 1927 to 26,432,000 tons in 1936, an increase of nearly 8,000,000 tons or over 40 per cent.
Alternate Fuels
The tendency in recent years is from coal to alternative fuels or energy. As pointed out in the above paragraph, energy other than coal has increased by 40 per cent over the past ten years. Use of coal by Canadian railroads has declined from 10-3 million tons in 1928 to an average in recent years of approximately 6-16 million (40 per cent), while wheat movements and trade activity generally affects traffic volume. The motor driven vehicle competitor has had a serious effect on railway coal consumption, Fuel oil offers some competition not only for steam raising in industry generally but for bunkering and even the heating and cooking market. Hydro-electric power has displaced large tonnages of coal for steam raising.
Economies in the technical use of coal have permitted railways to reduce their consumption by 10 per cent during the past ten years. Similar economies have been achieved in steel manufacture, steam electric power plants and in general steam raising practice.
Importations of Bituminous Coal
Bituminous coal importations for the past five-year period average annually 9,686,000 or li times the present Nova Scotia production, the greater portion of this is used in Ontario.
Quality of importations shows a wide range but such are usually of good quality with low sulphur content-low ash and high fusion of ash.
Preparation is carried out with a great deal of care and coals are sized to meet consumers' demands. Usually the grades sold are screened -run of mine-sized nut and slack.
[Mr. McCulloch.l
Transportation of Nova Scotia Coal Nova Scotia coal receives many handlings before it finally reaches the consumer, which results in a great deal of degradation due to . the friable nature of the coal. It has to move from the mine to loading piers, then from ocean-going boats to terminal storage piles and from that point to railway cars or trucks for final delivery.
Comparison of Prices to Consumer In the province of Quebec, Nova Scotia coal moved by water up the St. Lawrence and distributed from deep water ports can on a price basis compete with imported coal from the United States. Inland movements westward involve a cost which places Nova Scotia coal at a disadvantage with United^ States coal, the greater the distance moved inland from St. Lawrence ports the greater the disadvantage.
Reason for Subventions
Subventions were designed to meet competitive disadvantages and enable Nova Scotia coal to compete with imported coal on an equal price basis, without such assistance it would not be possible for Nova Scotia coal to enter the market west of the island of Montreal.
This aid has been responsible for the movement of nearly twelve million tons of Nova Scotia coal into these competitive markets (as at the end of 1938). In addition to this, some million and a quarter tons of Nova Scotia coal were assisted under the aid of coking legislation.
Production in United States Mines
The United States coal industry is the largest in the world and produces about one hundred times more than the annual output of Nova Scotia with a potential capacity to produce twice the present output. The districts in the United States supplying Canada are Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Qhio and the Virginias, where coal deposits are thick and of excellent quality, they have shallow cover, good roofing conditions and light gradients, they operate with mechanical labour saving equipment, which results in the production per man being about the highest in the world.
It also means that United States bituminous coal is produced at a comparatively low cost and from mines where the shallow cover and easy access simplifies the problems of transportation, ventilation and pumping.
Comparable Conditions in Nova Scotia During the past 100 years the more accessible coal areas in Cape Breton have been worked out and the limited areas now being mined are at points far out under sea and at great depth. Mining in these remote submarine areas entails increasingly large costs of long uphill multiple -systems of haulage and lengthy airways for ventilation,.
Under the land areas seams have been followed to a depth of 4,000 feet, complicating the extraction of coal by heavy gradients representing high power costs for haulage and pumping.
Production per man employed in Nova Scotia is on the average 2-2 tons per day compared with 4-5 tons in the United States field.
Mechanization of Mines (U.S.)
In southern Pennsylvania, Kentucky and Virginia, production per man actually runs up to 10 tons per day with the_ greatly increased mechanization of mines. This mechanization is on the increase, which will still further intensify

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board
competition. One mine in West Virginia is now planning to produce 6,552 tons per day with 500 men, equivalent to 13 tons per man per day.
Mechanization of Mines (N.S.)
Nova Scotia operators are endeavouring to keep apace by extending the use of this labour saving machinery. Coal cutting machinery was introduced in the mines many years ago, and the system of handling coal by conveyer belts has been done for some fifteen years.
Further progress is hoped for but the term mechanization includes a complete cycle by which coal is cut-bored-loaded and hauled mechanically to the tipple. The physical conditions of the Nova Scotia mines do not in every case lend themselves to complete mechanization. Where it is possible operators are endeavouring to use the most modern mining equipment.
In one instance equipment for the complete mechanization of a mine was purchased at a cost of some $400,000. It was installed and tried out but local labour refused to operate it, claiming its use would displace manual labour and also that it was unsafe; the mine is still idle with the equipment still there.
As a matter of fact this installation would not have displaced any labour as it is a new mine. It might eventually reduce the number of men employed for the same tonnage but by increasing the tons per man employed reduces cost of operation, thereby making extension of markets possible. Mining coal by old fashioned methods is too costly and to compete in consuming markets modern mining methods must be pursued.
Capacity to Produce
There is what is known as producers and non-producers in every mine. Producers are engaged at the coal face, actually mining coal, and non-producers are made up of men employed in handling coal from face to bankhead, maintenance of mine, preparation of the coal, and finally loading into cars.
In Nova Scotia coal mining 38 per cent of the men employed are producers and 62 per cent non-producers. American mines, with which Nova Scotia coal competes, have 60 per cent producers and 40 per cent non-producers.
The reason is that in Nova Scotia a large proportion of non-producers are required to meet the adverse conditions previously set out re:-
(1)	Distance from face to tipple with steep gradients.
(2)	Great depth of cover with heavy roof costs.
(3)	Comparatively thin seams.
(4)	Gasey and dusty mines, long and costly airways which restrict the free use of electricity, which is an important factor.
Regarding (1) loss in effective working time underground amounts to 1 hour 20 minutes per shift due to the time required for the workmen to travel from pit to face and return.
Also, steep gradients and gaseous conditions do not permit the extensive use of electric locomotives which play an important part in low cost production in United States areas.
Ventilation is also extremely costly in the submarine workings, necessitating in some instances coursing air for nine miles entailing large power consumption.
Marketing Handicaps
The Cape Breton collieries producing 80 per cent of the coal are dependent upon water transportation during the summer months. The St. Lawrence movement represents 60 per cent of the total production of Cape Breton, requiring peak loads for labour during the season of navigation with a serious slackening off during winter months.	,
Then again, coal produced during the winter months must be banked in readiness for summer movement. Similarly, the coal brought up during the summer has to be banked at terminals for winter delivery. This extra handling and storage, combined with weathering and the friable nature of the coal causing slackening and deterioriation in size, adds considerably to the cost. Much United States coal is delivered direct from the mines to consumer without this additional heavy cost burden.
Always to be borne in mind is the effect upon industry of increased coal prices. In the iron and steel industry it means 30 per cent of the cost of production and about 25 per cent in the manufacture of cement. Put the price of coal beyond that of competing fuels and you lose that market immediately.


Charles Edward Johnston: Would the minister give, year by year, the subsidies paid to Alberta in the last five years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall get that information for t'he hon. member.


Major James William Coldwell: I am most anxious in a situation like this, where we are spending about three and a half million dollars, directly or indirectly, for the benefit of these companies, that we should see to it that conditions among people mining the coal are improved. So far as I am concerned, the mines of Nova Scotia are mines about which I have read, and that is all. Unfortunately I have never seen them. But I have read articles from Nova Scotia describing the want, misery and suffering in the mining areas, and I feel that in voting large subventions to assist the coal industry parliament ought to take the responsibility of seeing to it that improvements are made in the conditions of people who are suffering in those areas.
When I looked up the speech delivered by Mr. Bennett on June 30 last year I felt there was ground for asking the minister whether the inquiry had been made and, if so, with what result. That was my only purpose in speaking at this time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have the financial structure or set-up of each one of these companies, operating in Nova Scotia and elsewhere. I really am at a loss to get the point of my hon. friend's question and I say that quite sincerely. So far as the knowledge of the department or myself goes, there has been no stock-jobbing, which was the term used a little time ago by my hon. friend, during the past year. I think the difficulty with

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board

most of these companies is to come out on the right side in their operations. I think it would be most unwise for this government or this parliament to attach conditions of the kind suggested by my hon. friend to the payment of these subventions. The time may possibly come when the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar will have a share in the responsibility of government, and at that time he might attempt to lay down conditions of this kind. So far as the direct control of the mines is concerned, our authority is quite limited.
The only way in which we could apply pressure, if I may use that term, would be to say to the coal companies, "You cannot participate in these subventions unless you do certain things in regard to the salaries you pay, in regard to the working conditions of your men, and so forth." We would probably be told, "Very well, we cannot move coal; we are going to run our own business." That was not the purpose of the subventions, and I cannot conceive that it was ever intended that the payment of subventions by the federal government should operate in that way. The subvention principle was adopted in the first place to enable the movement of coal in a wider range so far as finding markets in Canada was concerned. The primary purpose was to give employment to the miners engaged in the production of coal. I am informed that principle has been consistently maintained wherever the subventions are paid.
As I stated the other night, it would be quite possible but extremely improbable to have a coal policy-some people talk about the need for a coal policy, a rather general term-whereby subventions would be increased to the point to enable every Canadian coal consumer, whether it be a manufacturing establishment or a domestic consumer, to be supplied with Canadian coal. But that could be done only at greatly increased cost either to the federal treasury or to the industries and domestic consumers which were using the coal. After all, in the application of this principle regard must be had for all the factors and considerations involved. I am not saying that the subvention policy is sound or unsound, all I say is that it was initiated for a particular purpose and, so far as my knowledge goes, it has been applied effectively through the years to meet that purpose.
I would hesitate to lay down conditions along the lines indicated by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar to be applied to any coal mining operations. The day may come when we shall be doing that in this country, but I do not think it has arrived yet.


Major James William Coldwell: The minister has said that the subsidy or subvention is paid for the purpose of assisting employment or improving the conditions of employment. If we are paying out this large amount of money for that purpose, surely we have some responsibility to those whose money we are spending to see that the money does what it was originally intended to do.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Give employment.


Major James William Coldwell: Give employment, and under proper conditions. Also to furnish coal. My reading of the situation in Nova Scotia leads me to believe that as yet that object has not been achieved. If the statements are correct, the other matters to which I have referred would also seem to indicate that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is a large "if."


Major James William Coldwell: I was just going to finish. Last year the minister told the leader of the opposition, Mr. Bennett, that he would be glad to get some information in connection with what the right hon. gentleman had said at that time. I am asking him now if he has that information.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I stated a moment ago that we have the financial structure or set-up of every coal company that participates in these subventions. In reply to the question of my hon. friend I will say further that the departs ment has no knowledge of anything in the nature of stock-jobbing during the past year, to use the phrase he used. Personally I do not think there is any real foundation for this suggestion. From what I know of the coal industry to-day, I do not think it offers a very attractive field for investment.


Major James William Coldwell: I was not referring to 1938, I was referring to the extraordinary figures for 1933, 1934 and 1935. If those figures indicate over-capitalization or something of that sort, it ought to be a matter for inquiry by the body paying these large amounts to this particular industry. I used the word " stock-jobbing " because I could not think of any other term which would explain the value of these shares jumping round from $4 to $140 and then back to S16 now. The figure "$16" is not my figure, it was interjected by a member opposite. I can see no other explanation than that there was manipulation somewhere, and I am particularly suspicious when I know that the Holt and Gundy interests were interested in this particular reorganization in 1934.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: From what was my hon. friend quoting when he gave the stock market prices a moment ago?

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board


Major James William Coldwell: The Annual Financial
Review, 1938, page 553, which gives prices of stocks and bonds for a number of years.


René-Antoine Pelletier: In deciding whether a subvention should be granted, is the cost of production taken into consideration?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The answer is, no. I explained that the other evening, I hope fairly fully. The governing factor is the cost of delivering coal at competitive points.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Would not that include the cost of production?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly.


René-Antoine Pelletier: As I understand the
hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Cold-well), he has this point in mind: A company might not be able to meet its obligations and be later on absorbed by another company; subventions might be paid and in the cost of production would be included the interest on the bonds of the defunct company. We have often agitated in this house that before this government pays out a subvention of that kind there should be a financial survey of the institutions which are to benefit. We want to be sure that instead of everything going to the shareholders of a defunct company, it should go to those who should benefit, that is, the miners producing the coal. Earlier in the session I asked the minister whether there was any inspection of the financial setup of the various coal companies, and the minister replied that there was not. If we are to pay $3,500,000, I think we should know to whom it is going and we should make sure that it is reaching those whom we have in mind. If the minister would bear that in mind he would discover that his $3,500,000 would go further than it does at the present time. Instead of going to the shareholders of defunct coal companies, it would go to the actual coal producer, the man whom the minister wants to reach in the final analysis.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is quite
mistaken in the statement he has just made. A little while ago I gave for the various provinces the average cost of putting coal f.o.b. cars at the mine head, including costs of distribution. That is the basis upon which assistance in the movement of freight is calculated.


René-Antoine Pelletier: That would include overhead.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total cost, including overhead. If the hypothetical mine to which my hon. friend referred applied for a subvention, it would get it on the same basis 71492-2951
as any other mine because it is calculated on the average cost of production, say, in Alberta. That is the information given me by my officials.


René-Antoine Pelletier: If a large company took over a smaller company which was going bankrupt, the liabilities of the smaller company would become a charge on the major company and would be included in its costs of production, liabilities which it formerly did not have to meet.


George Halsey Perley: What was the amount of subventions paid last year on Saskatchewan
coal?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I put that information on Hansard when the estimates were before the committee a few days ago. For the fiscal year ended March 31. 1938-39, the total payments in respect of Saskatchewan coal were $36,717.76.


Charles Edward Johnston: What were the subventions for Alberta coal for the last five years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If I heard the question aright, the hon. member asked for the amount of subventions paid on coal movements from Alberta in each of the last five years. On the movement of coal to Manitoba the amount paid, in round figures, in 1934, was $316,151; 1935. $299,411; 1936, $307,104; 1937, $285,556; 1938, $257,891. Those are calendar years. On the movement of coal to Ontario the payments were, again in calendar years: 1934. $137,172; 1935. $159,506; 1936, $163,076; 1937, $138,196; 1938, $160,144.


David James Hartigan: Apparently a great
many members who have discussed coal subventions know very little about the matter, and particularly about the fundamental principles. A good definition of coal subventions would be that the subventions are paid to enable the Canadian producer of coal to obtain at current competitive rates business which otherwise would be beyond his reach. What difference does it make about the set-up of the company? What difference does it make about administrative costs? Take the wheat grower of the west. What difference did it make to us when wheat was sixty cents, because we were still paying $2 and $2.25 for a bag of bran in Cape Breton? Members from the west talk a great deal about coal subventions and ask whether the employee gets the benefit. It is axiomatic that if subventions enable the producer of coal to reach a market which would otherwise be beyond his reach, the labouring man must profit; he must get more, labour because of this new business.
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The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and others spoke of the great amount of money that had been paid in coal subventions. This is about the tenth year that coal subventions have been in effect. They originated in 1928-29, although they were in effect to a small extent for a few years before. In those ten years the large amount paid in coal subventions which hon. members opposite have been accentuating was $13,994,379.90. That was the total spent in coal subventions all over Canada in the past ten years. Is that a tremendous amount when we pass millions and millions of dollars to assist wheat for just one year?


Major James William Coldwell: We are not complain-[DOT]' ing about the coal subventions.


David James Hartigan: The total cost in the past ten years was, I repeat, $13,994,379.90. I say to hon. members opposite: Do not try to tear down coal subventions. They have done a wonderful amount of good; they are giving our men work. I am not going into the question of salaries paid to executives. Probably if one investigated the salaries of executives of wheat pools and milling companies one might find they were receiving a great deal more than executives in the coal industry.


Major James William Coldwell: Not the wheat pool.


David James Hartigan: If we want to formulate an up-to-date coal policy, I maintain that subventions have been the best coal policy Canada has ever had. Certainly we should like to see them extended, but we know there is a limit, because there are so many factors that must be taken into consideration. There is the quality of your coal; there is, above all,
' your consumer. You cannot compel the consumer to buy your coal. Let any member of the house put himself in the position of the consumer of coal. If you drive your subventions too high you will drive your potential coal consumer to using electricity or oil. Once coal gets beyond a certain price, if electricity or oil is lower, the consumer is going to use one or the other as a substitute for coal in the production of power.
Subventions have done a great deal of good throughout Canada. They have given us new markets for coal. Subventions are not paid for labour. They are doing good not only to Nova Scotia and Alberta and British . Columbia but to the areas through which the coal moves. They are paid by way of reduction in freight rates, or under some conditions a lump sum is allotted to a company, but it is based on the freight rates. Therefore very little of the subventions

which is expended on the movement of coal from Nova Scotia is expended in that province; it is spent in Quebec, in Ontario, where the coal is consumed, or in the areas through which it moves. That is a point to be borne in mind. The subvention is not paid as a bonus on the production of coal.
Some hon. members have referred to comparative costs of mining coal. Certainly there is a marked difference in the cost of coal in Nova Scotia and in Alberta. But it must be remembered that almost all the coal of Nova Scotia is taken from subterranean areas which are costly to maintain. If hon. members saw some of the timber which goes into Nova Scotia mines to keep up the roofs they would think it was a pulp mill rather than a coal mine. The amount of wood which goes into the mines is enormous. Also a great number of steel girders are used; in some instances they are very close together. They protect the roofs of the main parts of the mine. There are miles on miles of these iron girders, and they are very expensive. I do not know their cost to-day, but formerly it cost over $5 apiece to put them in place; that is just for the labour to put up a girder, not counting the cost of the material. I know of instances where men got more than $5 apiece for erecting these girders. WThen one is talking about cost one must bear in mind the varying conditions under which coal mines are operated.
Apart from the discussion which we have heard this afternoon, in my opinion there are some vital points which the minister of the department should take under consideration. The remarks I am about to make have special reference to my own constituency of Cape Breton South and the constituencies surrounding it. I do not profess to speak for any area other than the one I represent. In Cape Breton South we have at least two districts where the resources of coal have become depleted. One is at a place called Reserve. Conditions there are very bad for the reason that for soipe years only a very small quantity of coal has been taken out, although the quality is excellent; I believe that no better coal is mined in Canada. However, after producing for a great number of years, the resources have become depleted and the community which has been built up round that particular place is in serious difficulties.
What I have in mind is this. The Minister of Agriculture has the authority to declare a national emergency in respect of sections which are drought-stricken or insect-ridden or afflicted with some like calamity. Coal mining is just as basic an industry as wheat or lumber or fishing. Perhaps the Minister of

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Mines and Resources could use his good offices to have a locality like Reserve declared to be in a condition of national emergency as regards the basic industry, and work out, in cooperation with the Department of Labour, some method of alleviating the financial conditions of those people and securing work for them. In the Reserve district there is a seam of coal which is called the Emery seam. It has not been worked, and I do not know whether it is financially feasible to work it, but I suggest that the minister endeavour to have the company investigate the possibility of the immediate opening up of the Emery seam, if necessary with federal assistance, to give employment to the people of that district.
In another section of Cape Breton South, namely the Broughton district, we had at one time four mines. They were worked on what they call the top basin seam; that is, there was a basin all round. As time went on, all the mines had to be closed. There is quite a large population in Broughton, and it is in the heart of the coal district-not the mining area but the coal district. Mines were operated there a great many years ago. I maintain that some consideration should be given to the matter of opening a mine in order to give work to the people of that district. I may be asked, how are we going to do it?
We need a subvention to get our coal to a good market and overcome our other disabilities. We are placed, I suggest, in a peculiar position compared with every other basic industry in the dominion. I was in favour of a fixed price for wheat, and I have backed the western members all the way through because I think the idea is a good one; I am not criticizing the wheat interests or the action which has been taken for their preservation. But, I say, we are placed in a different position; for while Canada produces more wheat than she can sell, apparently our coal mines cannot produce more than half of what Canada can consume. As a matter of fact we produce only half of Canada's bituminous coal consumption; about 17,000,000 tons are imported against 17,000,000 tons produced in the dominion. That throws a different light on the coal business in Canada. While that condition obtains, while we cannot produce nearly enough coal to supply our Canadian needs, there must be some way to remedy the condition of the coal mining industry.
I know that everybody criticizes the minister, the department and the government. I do not want to do that, but I should like to offer one or two suggestions which might
be adopted with satisfactory results. One is that the fuel board should be given the powers of a marketing board. I believe that in that way a great deal of good could be done. Then, as the effect of our subvention is to bring down the price of our coal to the competitive price of the imported article, I cannot see why the railroads, on the basis of competition, with prices the same as between imported and home-produced coal, would not purchase our Canadian coal. If the fuel board were a marketing board, or if the railways had power to import coal and sell it, then all our Canadian coal could be taken over at a price which would afford the producer a margin with which to carry on his operations. All our Canadian coal could be so disposed of and we could import from the United States the coal necessary to make up the deficiency. Then the price could be adjusted, and I venture to say that on the total transaction the railways concerned would make from 85 cents to $1 a ton, which might go a long way towards absorbing a large proportion, if not all, of the deficit of the government-owned transportation system. This, I suggest, is worth wffiile taking into consideration. These are two constructive suggestions, but I say -and I mean this-that so far the principle of coal subventions based upon the tonnage rate has been the best coal policy we have had. This does not mean, of course, that we must stop there and not make efforts to improve conditions; for, while we are importing coal because we are unable to sell coal that could be produced in Canada, there is something wrong. We must be able to take up the slack, and if we had an outlet for 1,500,000 or 2,000,000 tons more of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick coal there would be no distress whatever in that part of the dominion.
I greatly sympathize with the minister; I am sure he must be getting weary of all these useless questions and all the explanations he has to make with regard to subventions. Some question, has been raised as to what control the government exercises. Clause 10 of the order in council provides that assistance shall not be granted to those, otherwise eligible to participate, who refuse or fail to furnish such information as the Minister of Mines and Resources may consider necessary in the administrative duties connected with this movement; that for the purpose of certifying such information the minister, or such officers of the dominion fuel board as he may designate, shall have free access to all books, records, and so forth kept by shippers or the railways in connection with
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this movement, and that he may make such examination thereof as shall be deemed necessary or expedient. The government has always maintained full control as to the payment of subventions, to whom and when they shall be paid, and so on, and there is no question in the minds of the Nova Scotia miners about the help these subventions have provided. They have aided1 our industry remarkably, and we hope they will be of still greater assistance in the future.
Last year a good many of us were caught off our guard. The year 1937 had been such a good one in the coal trade that it was not until June that we realized we were in a tail spin, as a result of conditions in the United States, which brought about a slowing down of operations in our pulp mills. These mills have always used a considerable amount of our coal, and it was not until June that we realized we were in this tail spin. The result was three or four months of a bad fall and winter for us. I am satisfied, however, that, remedial measures having been taken, there will be a considerable improvement in the province and that conditions will be far better than they have ever been in the coal industry there.
There are two or three extraneous factors to he taken into consideration. One of them does not depend upon Canada at all. If the United States would put into force an act similar to the Guffey act for the regulation of the sale of "distress coal" in that country, that would be one of the biggest boosts our coal industry could get. To-day there are unorganized mines in the United States shipping in a great volume of bootlegged coal, but we cannot very well do anything about it without disturbing our entire system of subventions and tariffs as it affects the United States, but I believe the time will come when the United States Senate will have to take some action to organize the coal industry there and to provide that coal shall not be sold below a certain price. While the Guffey act was in force conditions were a good deal better, but the moment it was declared ultra vires we began to suffer. That is one of the factors affecting our coal industry, but I am hoping that legislation similar to this will be reintroduced in the United States.
One thing more. We all realize that economic conditions in Canada are improving, and this means that economic conditions will improve in our province especially in the pulp and paper industry so that we shall sell a great deal more coal than we have done in the past.


Major James William Coldwell: I assure my hon. friend that we are not opposing these subsidies. We are glad to get support from the maritimes for our wheat producers, and we are willing to give our support to the miners of Nova Scotia, but we want to be sure that the assistance goes to the right people.


David James Hartigan: The hon. member knows that it is paid as subventions on traffic and not to labour.


Major James William Coldwell: The hon. gentleman a few minutes ago questioned the figures I gave regarding the strange stock operations of the company we are discussing. Let me tell him that I got the figures from the Annual Financial Review of 1938. The price of preferred stock in May, 1933, was $4 per share; May, 1934, |81; May, 1935, $138; February, 1935, $140. These are the figures of a company not paying dividends.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What company is that?


Major James William Coldwell: That is the Dominion Coal company, now included in the Dominion Steel and Coal Company. But let us see what happened to the stock of the Bell Telephone Company in the same months. In May, 1933, the shares were worth $100; 1934, $120; 1935, $128. There we find a variation of $28, and the following dividends paid were: 1933, 6 per cent; 1934, 6 per cent; 1935, 6 per cent. Let us take Steel of Canada, which is more comparable. In May, 1933, the stock was worth $28; 1934, $37; 1935, $48. The dividends paid in those three years were respectivelv $1.20, $1.75, $3.17.
When I look at these figures I want to know what manipulation has been going on in the Nova Scotia coal fields, because there has been a change of ownership. The business has been reorganized and the holding companies of Messrs. Holt, Gundy and company have 'been involved in these changes and combinations that have been going on in the last few years. When we are dealing with companies to which, directly in some instances and indirectly in others, we are paying these subventions, it is our duty to see to it that the benefit goes to the miners, the people who are suffering, rather than to those who are manipulating stocks and building up a financial superstructure while closing mines and throwing people out of work, thus causing misery and starvation in the Nova Scotia mining areas.
I am not opposing subventions. As I have said, I will support the subventions; I will support the proposal of the senior member for Halifax (Mr. Finn) that we pay the primary producer of fish a reasonable and

Supply-Mines-Fuel Board
decent price for that commodity so that he may live. But I do object to paying money to the middle-man, the exporter and the stock manipulator, and that is why I raise this point this afternoon.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	The discussion of this
very important matter arose out of a question directed to the minister by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, which question in turn was based upon a statement made ,by the former leader of the opposition when a similar item was before the house last year. In reply to Mr. Bennett's statement the minister at that time said:
I shall be glad to get some information in regard to what my right hon. friend has said.
The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar, as I understand it, wanted to know if during the past year the minister had made inquiries and had anything to report to the committee at the present time. Evidently the minisler has nothing to report in regard to that question.
Undoubtedly there has been a great deal of financial manipulation in regard to coal mining in Nova Scotia for a great many years. A royal commission was appointed to look into the affairs of the Acadia Coal Company in 1937, and it reported early this winter. I have before me a copy of that report, and while it may not be quite as thorough as it might have been it does bring out some startling facts. It indicates, as Mr. Bennett stated in this house last year, that in their own interests some people are manipulating industries by which the people of this country must live. And the dominion government is paying the good money of the taxpayers to these industries without knowing exactly where it is all going.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If I may interrupt my
hon. friend, does he suggest that the federal government should cease paying subventions for the movement of Nova Scotia coal unless certain abuses which he alleges are rectified?
Mr. MaeINNIS: I am not suggesting anything of the kind.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is what it boils
down to.
Mr. MaeINNIS: Oh, no; that is not what it boils down to, and nothing has been said from this side of the house this afternoon that by any kind of logic the minister can say means that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: But I must say-and I
do say in the very best of temper-that the suggestions of the hon. member for Rosetown-
Biggar and the hon. member for Vancouver East, if put forward seriously, would result in a state of affairs under which subventions would be withdrawn.
Mr. MaeINNIS:	Let me read the minister's own statement, appearing at page 4493 of Hansard for last year. Mr. Bennett said:
It is fundamental that the great enterprise in Cape Breton should not be utilized for stockjobbing exploitation by the use of any part of the moneys which we pay in large sums-large sums, mark you!-to assist in employment on that island.
At that time the minister said:
My right hon. friend's statement is the first I have heard of the matter. ... I shall be glad to gel some information in regard to what my right hon. friend has said.
The question was: During the recess did the minister get that information? We are not opposed to subventions, but I think the committee will agree that before the dominion government pays out money to any industry or for any purpose it should know exactly where that money is going. I intend to refer very briefly to this report. First it gives the financial set-up of the Acadia Coal Company, as follows: the first preferred stock, amounting to $1,900,000, is all owned by the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, Limited. The second preferred stock, amounting to $1,000,000, is also owned by the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, with the exception of $5,500. The common stock, totalling $1,846,100, is almost all owned by the same company. On the other hand all the common stock of the Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company, amounting to $15,000,000, was owned by the British Empire Steel Corporation and later by its successor, the Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation. This information appears at page 8 of the report. On page 10 I find the following:
Schedule "C" indicates some rather startling facts. In 1925 when the loss of Acadia is shown to be $128,469.66, the Scotia Company took from Acadia cash to the amount of $1,591,921.21. In 1932 when the loss of Acadia is shown to be $180,174.38, the Scotia Company obtained from Acadia the sum of $724,895.87 cash; and on the 19th of January, 1933, the day that the receiving order was granted against Scotia, that company received from Acadia the sum of $20,000 cash, and on that day the memorandum shows that The Nova Scotia Steel and Coal Company owed Acadia Coal Company a total of $1,703,410.81.
That is a most amazing situation. I see it is now six o'clock, Mr. Chairman.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.

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After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


Frederick George Sanderson: When the committee rose at six o'clock, item 129, "Payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council. $3,500,000,'' was under discussion.


Angus MacInnis: I have only a few words to say in connection with this item. Before the six o'clock recess I was reading from the report of the royal commission on the Acadia Coal Company. The commissioners made definite findings in regard to holding companies, and from those findings I shall read briefly:
It cannot be said, having regard to all the facts, that from 1925 until January, 1933, the affairs of Acadia were conducted or managed in the best interests of the company, or in the interests of the industry in Pictou county. There was nothing illegal from the point of view of authority in the various matters of borrowing and dividend payments already mentioned. In fact it cannot be said there was anything illegal in those transactions from any point of view. Legality of action, however, is one thing, and preserving and safeguarding the industry and all that that implies is quite another thing. It is, therefore, the considered view of your commissioners that some legislative action should be taken in regard to the powers of holding companies. Some restrictions should be placed on their present powers, especially in the matter of dealing with subsidiary companies. A holding company in control of the common stock of another company has absolute power over its destiny, notwithstanding that the public own the actual property through mortgage bonds and debenture stock. A holding company may through bad management plunge its subsidiary into debt, but may not be responsible for the liquidation of that debt, and thus the property of the real owners may be sacrificed. There is no intention to suggest here that any action should be taken which would unduly interfere with the status quo, or any action which in the remotest way would be calculated to disrupt business; but it is thought that restrictions and limitations may be imposed which would cure an undoubted existing evil, and there does not seem to be any reason for confirming any such restrictions to companies which deal with the public assets of the province, such as coal operations, lumber operations, or operations of water power.
We are here dealing with the payment of public money to an industry for a specific purpose. The purpose is that of enabling the industry to sell its product in a competitive market where it could not sell without that assistance, in order that by so doing it may give employment to a larger number of workers. All we are asking here is that the government should exercise that control which is necessary to see that the purpose for which the subsidy or subvention is paid is being carried out.
I Mr. Maclnnis.]
Anyone who has visited the coal mining areas of Nova Scotia will realize the amount of destitution and misery which exists in those areas, while the people who have been manipulating the mines have been living in the greatest luxury. That is a condition which in my opinion we should not allow to continue, and something which cannot continue without having far-reaching economic and political effects on the life of the country. Before the house meets again to deal with an estimate of this kind, I think the minister should have more information in the matter than he now has.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch.
51b. Geological surveys, and to authorize, subject to the approval of the governor in council, the appointment of such extra temporary officers, clerks and employees as may be necessary to carry out the purpose of any item in these supplementary estimates for this department, payment therefor to be made from the particular item with respect to which such extra assistance is required, $30,000.
Mr. BARBER; Would the minister explain this item?
Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is for the purpose of sending out additional geological survey parties, one of which will be in British Columbia, one in Saskatchewan, one in Manitoba and one in Nova Scotia, and also to extend topographical surveys to a somewhat greater extent than is provided for in the main estimates.


Harry James Barber: How many parties are operating in British Columbia this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The information was given the other evening, but I can give it again. Including the one I mentioned a moment ago, there will be seven in British Columbia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and geology branch.
515. To assist in provision of transportation facilities into mining areas, $1,250,000.
Harry James Barber: Is this for the construction of roads into mining properties?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Harry James Barber: What is being spent in British Columbia in the current year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount is $240,000.


Harry James Barber: Would the minister break down the figure?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am advised we have not yet the complete list of projects. I might remind the committee that this expenditure is contingent upon the provincial government

Su pply-Mines-Geology
appropriating half the amount appropriated by the federal government. That is the total expenditure for mining roads in British Columbia will be $240,000 out of this vote, and $120,000 which must be provided by the British Columbia government, making a total of $360,000. In each instance the provincial government submits the projects which the provincial department of mines thinks are most necessary. These projects are then reviewed (by the mines branch at Ottawa, in the light of all the available informatioh, and changes are sometimes suggested. When the projects are finally agreed upon, they are incorporated into an agreement with the province for the expenditure of the money. The province supervises the expenditure, and our own officers check expenditures and see that the work is carried out according to the terms of the agreement.


Harry James Barber: How does the minister arrive at the sum before the program is submitted by the provincial government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no difficulty on that score. The criticism is that enough money is not provided. Out of this vote of $1,250,000 allocations are made to the different provinces, the amount going to British Columbia being the sum I mentioned. The complaints we have received are that the amount is not sufficient, but it is all the government felt it could appropriate this year.


Harry James Barber: On what basis are the allocations made in each of the provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As between the various provinces?


Harry James Barber: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is arrived at in the light of the best wisdom the officers of the department can bring to bear.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The rule of thumb.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, not the rule of thumb. We do not throw them into the hat and pull them out piecemeal. We make a serious effort to allocate the amounts fairly as between the various provinces, having regard to the progress of mining development, the population of the provinces and other related factors.


John Ritchie MacNicol: This is an item of
$1,250,000 which the government hands over for expenditure in the different provinces. Does the money ever come back to the dominion, or is it merely handed over to assist in creating employment in the provinces? Each province has its own mining branch, and we seem to be getting mixed up with provincial departments.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The purpose of this appropriation, which was initiated in 1936, is to stimulate the development of mining throughout Canada. In some instances a mine may be operating a considerable distance from railway transportation. I have in mind mines in British Columbia in the Bridge River district, with which some hon. members from British Columbia will be familiar. A few years ago assistance was given to a project to improve transportation facilities from the railway to the point where these mines operate. The same is true of mines in other western provinces, in Quebec and in Ontario. There are several gold mines in Ontario which are located some distance from a railroad. The purpose of this vote is to give encouragement to mining development by improving transportation facilities, generally by the improvement of roads.
The benefits of this vote come back to the government and to the country indirectly. The other night I gave the gold production, which has increased from $118,000,000 in 1935 to $165,000,000 in 1938. It is expected that there will be a further increase this year. New wealth is created, there is increased employment and general benefits accrue to the whole business community. I am informed that as careful an analysis of the matter as can be made indicates that something over 30,000 new jobs were created in the last four years by the opening up of new mines.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I would think that the provinces could attend to this business themselves. I am in accord with the dominion government assisting in any way it can, yet it seems to me that the ministries in the various provinces are getting more and more like some township councils in that they cannot take care of many of these matters. If the federal government finds it has to do this, all right, but apparently some of our provincial governments are getting to be such small affairs that they cannot look after anything of magnitude.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is not quite correct. The federal government does derive benefits from this.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The federal government did not do this work ten years ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The government derives
benefits from the increased number of people at work and through the greater volume of business. There is benefit from sales tax revenues, profits' tax revenue, the charge made for the marketing of gold and in various other ways. This expenditure is really quite useful.
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John Ritchie MacNicol: Has a road been opened into the chrome mine near Collins in northern Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that some assistance was given two years ago.


Mr. ESLING:: I understand from the minister that the construction of mining roads is carried on at points designated and recommended by the provincial ministers of mines.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: After approval by the
department at Ottawa.


William Kemble Esling: But the recommendation
must first come from the province.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


George Halsey Perley: What was this vote last year, and what portion was expended in Saskatchewan? The mining development in northern Saskatchewan is quite important. I am in favour of this vote because I believe the Saskatchewan government will do its share to develop the area in the northern part of the province. The minister said that about 30,000 new jobs had been created in the last two years, and I should like to know how many were created in northern Saskatchewan,


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot answer that question specifically. Metal mining in Saskatchewan is something that has developed only in the last few years. There is one important development on the north shore of lake Atha-baska at Goldfields, where the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company is about ready to go into operation. Then in the Lac la Ronge district there are some promising prospects of which the geological reports are quite good. Assistance is being given to open a road into that particular area. I am not in position to say just how many jobs have been created in Saskatchewan, the estimate I gave being in reference to the whole country. .


George Halsey Perley: How much was spent last year in Saskatchewan?	[DOT]


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A total of $125,000.


George Halsey Perley: And did the provincial government spend another $125,000?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The provincial government put up half of that amount. The expenditure is on the basis of two dollars federal and one dollar provincial.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: I should like to see consideration given to building the Nipa-win-Flin Flon road. This road leads into an important mining territory, and it would be a first class potential tourist road because it might go near the Nipawin provincial park, a fine scenic, camping and fishing area. I

believe the minister is familiar with the applications that have been made for some years past for the development of this road.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Representations in regard to this particular project have been made for several years past. Arrangements have been completed with the Saskatchewan government to send a survey party over the proposed route to make an estimate of the cost. Any action that will follow will depend upon the reports we get.


William Kemble Esling: With the minister's interest in the development of mining properties and the creation of employment, I wonder if he will not have a chat with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) for the purpose of seeing if some of this money cannot be used to create employment for the innumerable silver miners who are now out of employment. There are very many silver properties in the Slocan district which are closed because the price of silver does not warrant operation. The Minister of Labour thinks it is a matter for the Minister of Finance; the Minister of Finance thinks it is a matter of government policy and that assistance is hardly warranted from a financial point of view. But these miners make the proposal that the government assist them only on such silver producing properties as were opened in 1939, and they ask for that assistance by way of an increased price of silver. But it does not necessarily have to be an increased price of silver. It can be assistance in any way the government pleases, just the same kind of assistance, if they like, that they have been giving to salt fish, cheese, coal mines and so forth. The government is not asked to put out one dollar until these men have put in a good deal of preliminary work and have incurred preliminary expenses in exploring, drilling and so on, and with all this money to spend it does seem that it would be practicable for the government to encourage the development of these new properties, thereby putting many men to work. The minister says that 30,000 men were given employment by the opening up of new properties last year through the assistance given in mining operations. That number might be materially added to if assistance were given to these silver producing properties. There is no expenditure asked to be made by the government until these miners have first spent their efforts and their money in finding new properties and opening them up.


Mr. GREEN:: Is any of this money to be spent on the Monkman pass highway from the Peace river into British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.

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Howard Charles Green: Is provision made for that highway under any other vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There might be, to the extent of making a survey. Any vote in this department out of which such assistance could come would not be this vote for assistance in provision of transportation facilities into mining areas, because certainly the road mentioned does not come in that category. There is another item in the estimates for assistance, on the same basis as last year, in the development of tourist roads, but that we can discuss when we come to it.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Did the minister say that he wished to have the Monkman pass highway discussed under another vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Whatever that road may be it is certainly not a road into a mining area, and it does not get a dollar out of this vote.


René-Antoine Pelletier: On other occasions we have discussed the Monkman pass highway under this vote, which is to assist in providing transportation facilities into mining areas, but if the minister would like that matter discussed under another item perhaps he would indicate it. How much was spent in northern British Columbia last year under this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the division as between northern and southern British Columbia.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Is the minister aware of any project undertaken in northern British Columbia, the funds for which would come out of this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, there was work done in northern British Columbia in the direction of Finlay Forks, where mining operations are now being carried on.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Was the government of British Columbia required to match the amount of money spent by the federal government on this work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have already given that information twice. The provincial governments are obliged to put up one dollar for each two dollars which the federal government puts up. In other words, they put up one-half of what we do.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I am sorry if the minister had to state the situation twice, but it is sometimes difficult to hear at this end of the chamber. The minister knows what I have in mind, the Monkman pass highway. If he thinks it should be discussed on another item, would he indicate it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It certainly does not come under this item. There will not be a dollar appropriated from this item for the Monkman
pass or any other pass. This item is to assist in providing transportation facilities into mining areas. I am quite sure the Monkman pass project does not come in that category.


Howard Charles Green: The minister in answer to a question of mine said that money was to be provided for a survey of that highway, but I did not quite catch under which vote it comes.


Mrt CRERAR:: No, I said possibly. The only other vote in my estimates upon which it might be discussed would be the vote for tourist roads.	.


Howard Charles Green: That is item 522?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Harry James Barber: Does the federal government insist that before assistance is given to highways under this vote, the mining property must be developed up to a certain point, or are transportation facilities provided to prospects?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would say both. Usually the procedure in developing a property is to do some surface work and some diamond drilling, and if the reports indicate a favourable structure, machinery and supplies have to be put in for more extended development. I assure my hon. friend that we endeavour so far as possible to see that this money is wisely spent, and if I may modestly say so, I think we have succeeded very well up to the present time. I could cite many illustrations if I wanted to take the time of the committee, but I do not think it is necessary.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I understand that under this item some money was spent on the so-called Turgeon road, which is indicated on a map I have here. The minister says that he is careful to spend this money only where it is going to assist in mining development. Would he indicate what mining properties are along this road on which money was spent last year and the year before?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What road?


René-Antoine Pelletier: The Manson Creek
road. I shall be glad to send the map over to the minister so that he may acquaint himself with the proposed road.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Will my hon. friend say whether it is in Nova Scotia, British Columbia or the Northwest Territories?


René-Antoine Pelletier: I think the minister is evading the issue. We have been speaking about the Monkman pass highway. He knows to what I am referring at the present time. It is a proposed highway being built in northern British Columbia starting at Vanderhoof, and
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going north to Fort St. James, Manson Creek, east to Finlay Forks, and so forth. Perhaps that will indicate to the minister the highway I mean.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If my hon. friend had given that information at the beginning I would have known what he was referring to.


Ernest Lapointe: He would have made only one speech, then.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Assistance was given on that road, not for the purpose of developing a highway but for the cheapening of transportation into an important mining area.


René-Antoine Pelletier: That is what I wanted to know from the minister. The minister stated some time ago that he made sure this money was expended only when there were important mining areas concerned. Would the minister indicate what important mining areas there are along this proposed route?


Malcolm McLean: Not alongbeyond.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that a considerable amount of placer mining is carried on at Germansen Landing. I know it is there because I have talked to the people who are operating it, and who have expressed their appreciation of the assistance the government has given and the useful result it has had in cheapening the cost of transporting their equipment and supplies into this area.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Once the proposed trail is developed to such a degree that it is possible to use it in order to help out mining development there, who undertakes the maintenance of the highway?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The provincial government


René-Antoine Pelletier: I suppose, then, that in this instance the provincial government has agreed to maintain the highway once it has been built by the federal government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is a part of the agreement that we make with every province with respect to the expenditure of this vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have been very much amused at the obvious embarrassment of the minister in discussing this vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Really my hon. friend is assuming a great deal. I may say to him now that I am not in the slightest degree embarrassed by anything the hon. member for Peace River has said, and I do not expect to be embarrassed by anything that is said by the hon. member for Kootenay East.


Henry Herbert Stevens: At least I have stirred up the minister-a thing which is not very often done. The long and short of it is, as the minister knows, that while he thinks we should not discuss under this item the Monkman pass route, the road which is being built under this item is looked upon as the alternative route, or is the route which has been started, forced along and assisted by the government, not for mining purposes, but generally'-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend is quite mistaken in saying that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Just a second.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I insist upon that-


Henry Herbert Stevens: For a minister of mines who is so extremely' placid in his temperament, the minister shows a little bit of warmth about this matter, and I am afraid that I am putting my finger more or less on the spot.
I am not objecting to the building of this road, but certainly it is not being built primarily for the development of mining, as set forth in this vote, and as very candidly set forth by the minister in the early part of the evening. The idea of giving grants to provincial governments to get trails or roads to mines is a principle we all endorse, provided it stimulates mining output and assists the pioneer developer of mines in getting his property developed. But the mining area at Finlay Forks is a long way from Vanderhoof. If the minister would second the assistance and knowledge of the hon. member for the district, and if he in turn would be thoroughly candid about the matter and tell the committee of the controversy as between the Monkman pass route and this route, we should get pretty near the truth.
I think the vote for this route which is being paid for out of this appropriation ought to be paid for, as assistance to roads in different parts of the country is paid for, as a direct grant for the relief of unemployment. To bring it under this vote is stretching the thing to the limit. I do not know of any vote in the estimates whereunder the Monk-man route can be properly discussed. I do not believe that there is a vote here where we would be any more in order in discussing it than under this vote. The Monkman route from the Peace River section of Alberta into British Columbia is undoubtedly the right one for the opening up of transportation facilities from the Peace river down to the coast; the people of that district have gone ahead and made a road for a considerable distance, over which they have managed to travel; in fact a car came through, with great difficulty, last fall; but the enterprise and

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the sacrifice of the people on that route in spending their own money and labour and time upon it deserve recognition. It is a much better and a much shorter route than this one; and personally I regard it as a mistake and as unfair to the committee to designate the appropriation to the Finlay Forks district as an appropriation in the interests of the development of mining, because it is nothing of the kind. True, there is some mining, and some very important mining, in there, particularly at Finlay Forks, which is a long way up; and in the Ingenika some very old silver lead properties, as well as the placer properties the minister has mentioned, have been operated for years.
I am all in favour of rendering assistance in opening up roads over long distances into new territories, but I do not think the committee should be, I will not say misled, but led into the impression that this is strictly devoted to the purpose set forth in the appropriation in the sense in which the minister explained the appropriation in the early part of the evening. We also ought to recognize that these routes are a matter of controversy, and very bitter controversy, in that whole district, and there is a.great deal of resentment and ill feeling in that the government, while able to spend a large sum last year-I should like the minister to tell me the amount, but I will venture the figure of $100,000-upon the road from Vanderhoof to Finlay Forks, has refused any recognition of the magnificent efforts of the settlers on the route from the Peace River country to Fort George. To question this is, to say the least, stretching the credulity of members of this committee to about the breaking point.


Mr. TURGEON:: I would not have said a word on this, in spite of the fact that everything which hon. members are speaking about lies within the confines of my riding, but for the fact that the hon. member for Kootenay East has said some things to the Minister of Mines and Resources which are absolutely untrue.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Order.


James Gray Turgeon: Well, they are untrue
in fact; I do not mean that he meant them to be untrue. In that regard I am not at all surprised that the hon. member for Peace River has a profound lack of knowledge of the situation in northern British Columbia, but I am disappointed that the hon. member for Kootenay East, who sat for a long period as a minister from British Columbia, shows just as deep a lack of knowledge of conditions as does the hon. member for Peace River, who has been here only since the last election.
To begin with, this road which they are now discussing does not commence at Vanderhoof; it commences at Fort St. James. There was a road from Vanderhoof to Fort St. James many years ago.


Henry Herbert Stevens: A trail.


James Gray Turgeon: No, it was a road; and not one cent of this money has been spent on the road from Vanderhoof to Fort St. James. The road is essentially a mining road. There is no controversy as between the particular road under discussion and the Monkman pass. As the member for the district I have not the faintest hesitation in rising in my place and saying that there is no controversy, and that any assistance given to the Monkman pass highway-as I hope there will be and as I am inclined to think there will be-must come from another item and cannot come from this item.


Charles Edward Johnston: Which one?


James Gray Turgeon: The one we are now
discussing is for the construction of roads and assistance to mining. The hon. member for Kootenay East spoke about this road being a camouflage-


Henry Herbert Stevens: No.


James Gray Turgeon: Well, in effect he said so. He said that the minister was trying to deceive the committee.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I did not say that.


James Gray Turgeon: That was the impression he left; there is no question about it; and he mentioned that there was some good mining beyond Finlay Forks, which is some distance beyond Vanderhoof. But he did not notice-if he had he would have been honest enough to inform the committee-that the road on this side of Finlay Forks has not only been opened up but has been developed and has proved one of the best mining districts in British Columbia, the employment having increased from seventy-five men in the maximum mining season in 1936, when the money was first spent, to 615 privately employed workers in 1937. The same number were employed in 1938, but there will not be as many in 1939 because a good deal of the preliminary work has been done. There will still be, however, hundreds of men employed for nearly two seasons. Winter camps were opened in the district north of Fort St. James and south of Finlay Forks for the first time in the history of British Columbia, and the hon. member for Kootenay East, who represents a mining district, ought to be aware

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of that. The hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Pelletier) is not supposed to know. That hon. gentleman, in every session since 1936, has asked formal questions as to what, if any, mining development has been taking place along that route. He evidently forgets that two years ago he asked a series of questions which were answered by the department indicating what mining development is going on. One mining outfit, Ventures Limited of East Africa, has spent $1,500,000 of private money opening up mining areas in the country between Fort St. James and the Nation river, 100 miles south of Finlay Forks, and work has been progressing since the fall of 1936, although the road has not yet nearly reached Finlay Forks.
I am sorry to have taken up the time of the committee because I know we are all anxious to get away, but after what the hon. member for Kootenay East said to the minister I thought it was my duty to make these remarks. Perhaps it will do some good and put a stop to controversy, because there is no clash of opinion as between the proposed Monkman pass highway and this one-none whatever. Those men and women who have been doing voluntary work on the Monkman pass deserve every possible credit.


Charles Edward Johnston: Are they going to get it?


James Gray Turgeon: I imagine so.


Charles Edward Johnston: How much?


James Gray Turgeon: I hope they are. It is in my riding, and heaven knows if there is anyone in this house who would like to see it I am the one. The hon. member for Peace River, aided by one or two hon. members from Vancouver, has been trying to make this clash of opinion. These hon. gentlemen have not been satisfied with trying to secure the expenditure of funds for the development of the Monkman pass highway, but they want to kill the other road. But they cannot kill the other road, nor can they say that it is not a mining road, because it goes through a mining district, and the conditions there, so far as mining is concerned, are exactly as I have described them. I am sure the hon. member for Kootenay East will take my word for it-I am speaking of the conditions along the so-called Turgeon route running from Fort St. James and through the Manson Creek and Germansen area on to Finlay Forks. I hope the work on this road will be done this year, and I trust also something will be done on the Monkman pass as well. But it cannot be done out of this vote. .


Henry Herbert Stevens: What the hon. member
has said does not alter the situation in the slightest degree. I did not suggest that there was no mining; I asserted that there was. But if one strikes a route anywhere in British Columbia for a distance of several hundred miles, one is bound to come to mining areas.


James Gray Turgeon: This was known to be a mining area.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes, and I venture to say that on the Monkman pass road there will be mining districts. There is a great demand for a highway connecting Alberta and the Peace River with the coast. That demand has been put before parliament for the last twenty years, first in the form of a railway pioposal and latterly as a highway, because the people have not been able to get rail communication. That is a road which would be commercial, affording an outlet for the Peace River country, and it would be of great importance from the tourist point of view. It would pass through a good mining district.


James Gray Turgeon: Not known.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Oh, yes. This is supposed to be a mining vote, and I was basing my remarks upon the minister's explanation of it, which was that the vote was for the purpose of opening up roads to districts that were remote or at any rate back from the railway, and with a view also to possible production.


James Gray Turgeon: That is exactly what has happened.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Quite so, but look at the distance we have to go. My argument is that the road to Finlay Forks is a major road the same as the highway into Peace River or by the Monkman pass. It is the same type of highway.


James Gray Turgeon: No, it is not.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Just a moment. I am going to ask the minister to tell us what has been spent on the highway north of Finlay Forks and what is the appropriation for this year. If he is justified under this vote in spending sums of money on that long highway of several hundred miles, then I say he is equally justified in spending money on the Monkman pass road which has been referred to by the hon. member for Vancouver South and the hon. member for Peace River.


James Gray Turgeon: Does the hon. member suggest that it is equally justifiable from the point of view of mining pure and simple? If so, I would point out to him that companies were working in this district before the road started.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes. As a matter of fact the W. R. Wilson group have been there, to my knowledge, for twenty years.


James Gray Turgeon: The hon. gentleman is confused. The Wilson group are at Finlay Forks.


Henry Herbert Stevens: North of Finlay Forks.


James Gray Turgeon: The employment to which I referred took place 150 miles south of Finlay Forks.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Work is going on not only at that point north of Finlay Forks but in other places as well. The point I am making is that if the minister can stretch this vote to cover the highway we have been discussing-and I am not objecting to it- it is possible under the vote to spend some money on the Monkman pass road as well.


James Gray Turgeon: I am glad the hon. member is not objecting.


René-Antoine Pelletier: It has become necessary to make clear that the clash of opinion in the Peace River country, both in British Columbia and in the Alberta block, is not over the question whether or not this or that road should be built. What has been happening is this. The people of the Peace River district wish to have a road built out of the district, and they feel that if money is spent on a road where there is no population, money ought to be spent on a road to which they themselves are contributing. The hon. member for Cariboo tells us that, in 1936, seventy-five men were employed in the area to which he has referred, and that there were 615 in 1937 and 1938. But compare that with the 70,000 people who have their whole investment in the Peace River country.


James Gray Turgeon: That is not mining.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I shall come to that in a moment. The hon. member said that I did not know what I was talking about. Well,
I am willing to leave that to people elsewhere. For years the people of the Peace River district have been promised an outlet to the coast. They are now building a highway which will go through mining areas, and they are doing it of their own accord. They are asking for some consideration. Here we find mining roads being developed to help 615 workmen, but the expenditure is also for the purpose of helping the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, which made a clear profit of $17,000,000 two years ago. That is the point, if it comes to that. No one in the Peace River country argues that there should not be mining development and roads to help along that development in
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northern British Columbia, but they do object to a corporation which is able to show a clear profit of $17,000,000 being given preference to the detriment of the people of the Peace River district. It is time to put on the record what is happening there. Even though I do not know what I am talking about-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


René-Antoine Pelletier: -nevertheless I can say-


An hon. MEMBER:: Is it mining?


René-Antoine Pelletier: Yes, it is mining. I can say to the committee that the Monkman Pass Highway Association has a branch in the town of Prince George, British Columbia, of which the mayor of that town, Mr. A. M. Patterson, is chairman. There is also a branch of the highway association in the city of Vancouver. All these branches are active, and the people throughout the entire Peace River country have demanded the construction of this highway. Up to the present time it has not been considered necessary to mention the many resolutions, petitions and similar statements presented by people throughout that district demanding the construction of this highway. The hon. member for Cariboo and the minister must know as well as I do that petitions and resolutions by the dozen and by the score have been showered upon them advocating the construction of this highway. Why? Because not more than five per cent of the total combined population of northern British Columbia and northern Alberta will be served by the route upon which the money is now being spent. In other words, in order to benefit five per cent of the people we have allowed the other ninety-five per cent to go by the board. That is why we say there is a clash of opinion. Just as soon as assistance is given the Monkman pass highway project the government will find the people of the Peace River country earnestly desiring to help any other road the government may wish, so long as those people believe they are given fair play, which they do not think they are receiving from the government at the present time.
A moment ago I said I would be very glad to pass over to the minister a map which I hold in my hand showing the location of the proposed Monkman pass highway, together with a tracing showing the so-called Turgeon route from Fort St. James to Manson Creek and on to Finlay Forks. We have been told from time to time that it would be necessary to undertake various surveys of the Monkman pass route, but may I point out to the minister that last year and the year before the people of the Peace River country, on their own

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initiative and iby their own efforts, without the assistance of a single dollar from any municipal, provincial or federal government, undertook to build the highway themselves. That is something which, so far as I know, has not been equalled anywhere else in Canada.
It shows that they really want this route, and surely the determination shown indicates the sincerity of their desire. To them this means an outlet much shorter than by any other proposed route. First of all we want an outlet; then, if it is found necessary to help out the mining areas, no one will object to that. I think it is my duty to place on record an expression of the sentiments held by the Monkman Pass Highway Association, and to point out the vast number of people who belong to that organization and the huge territory it covers. They urge:
1.	Without the assurance of a coast outlet the settlement of the Peace River territory would never have been accomplished. Construction on what was to be a through line of the C.N.R. through Whitecourt was already under way when settlers came over the 270 miles from Edson and the 500 miles by way of Slave Lake and Athabasca.
2.	Repeated promises that this outlet would be constructed as soon as financially possible have supported all further settlement and development. Project after project of less real importance is being financed and this outlet is still denied.
3.	At present the Peace River is considered the most remote from markets, and transportation the most costly of any district in Canada. With its proper outlet it would be one of the closest.
4.	An outlet is essential to any further development. Any increase in population must be on the wooded or sub-marginal lands. This is impossible if to the cost of clearing and of building up the poorer soils must be added the existing handicap of transportation.
5.	The tourist situation is unfair. To support what is becoming one of the greatest industries in Canada the government is spending greater sums each year. We are paying our share of this burden but are denied any possible chance of benefit. By the comparatively trifling expenditure on this connecting link of 150 miles enormous tourist opportunities would be offered of benefit not only to the Peace River country but to the whole dominion.	*
So far as the road itself is concerned, it is the most direct, most feasible and easiest built highway to provide an outlet for the people of the Peace River country. They have this project at heart; they have done all kinds of work on their own initiative in order to further it, and I think in fairness to them some encouragement and recognition should be shown by this government through some grant or donation at least to match what we have done for the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company and other such corporations.

I had intended also to refer to various resolutions passed by Liberal organizations throughout the Peace River country, copies of which have been sent to me, but we have followed the principle of not dragging in politics in regard to this question. It is not a political matter; it is a question of justice alone. The people of that country have been promised this outlet, and that promise has not been kept. Now we see large sums of money being spent elsewhere, so it is no wonder a clash of opinion has developed, as the hon. member for Cariboo has said. But 'let me assure the minister that there is no difference of opinion as to what route should be constructed. The clash of opinion is simply this: We do not want to see this much money spent on another road while the Monkman pass highway receives no recognition. In all fairness to the people of the Peace River constituency I feel that some provision should be made, even at this late stage, in order to assist in putting this road through. It gives me great pleasure to forward this well drawn map to the Minister of Mines and Resources so that he may have a clear idea of the project that is proposed.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What is the amount of money that has been spent on the road from Vanderhoof to Finlay Forks?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I thank the hon. member for Peace River for his ardent desire to add to my store of knowledge in regard to the Monkman pass and other routes. I return to him the map he so kindly sent over, with the assurance that I have at least three copies of it on my desk at the present time. I repeat that whatever its merits or demerits, the Monkman pass project cannot possibly come under this vote.
May I now say a word or two to enlighten the hon. member for Kootenay East. The expenditure on this road from Fort St. James north to the Nation river during 1936-37, 1937-38 and 1938-39 amounted to approximately S208,000, including the one-third put up by Alberta. During the three years I have mentioned, the federal contribution has been $138,000. The hon. member for Kootenay East says there is some mining in this area to 'be served by the development of this route, but maintains that it is no different from the Monkman pass route in that respect, and that if this expenditure is justified then an expenditure on the Monkman pass highway would be equally justified under this vote. I cannot agree with my hon. friend in that contention. As a matter of fact there are six companies and several smaller operations in the territory that will be served by

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the expenditure of the amount I mentioned a moment ago, and that is only in the development stage. I have received assurance from one or two of the operators in the district that this expenditure has been of great assistance to them in cheapening the cost of getting their equipment and supplies.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There is no doubt about that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the hon. member agrees with that. Therefore I submit that this expenditure was wholly justified. I think it would be justifiable if in another year or in succeeding years parliament should make some similar provision to extend the road still farther. Personally a few years ago I knew very little about that part of northern British Columbia. But from all the information we can get from departmental records and from other sources I would say it is reasonable to expect that important mining developments will take place in the territory.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What is the amount appropriated for this year, and how many miles have been done?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am unable to give the hon. member the amount appropriated for this year, because no amounts have been allocated as yet as among the various projects. While we have made tentative plans and received tentative suggestions for projects, nothing definite has so far been decided. Possibly I should not even hazard a guess but I was going to say the amount might approximate what was spent last year-or it may be more or less.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Is there an agreement with the province?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The agreement with the province on this year's operation has not yet been signed.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There is a past agreement?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, we have agreements each year, and the agreements specify the projects.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Has the last agreement
expired?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It expired on March 31.


Charles Edward Johnston: The hon. member for Cariboo mentioned that he thought possibly a certain amount of money was going to be voted for the Monkman pass highway.


James Gray Turgeon: I was expressing a hope.


Charles Edward Johnston: The hon. member spoke with a good deal of conviction, and probably a little knowledge. I should like to know from the minister if there is any other vote that will be contributed to the Monkman pass highway. I may say quite candidly I have been in the Peace River district only once, and that was last year. It is a wonderful, new country. I have not been into the British Columbia section, so I will not attempt to differentiate between the two roads mentioned to-night. I think, however, it is a great shame if after so much sacrifice and effort on their part the people in the Peace River district are to be deprived of some form of assistance for the further development of that road. Is there any other vote coming up in the estimates which will cover a portion of the Monkman pass highway, because I say it is high time those people received some financial assistance from this government.


Frederick George Sanderson: Shall the item carry?


Charles Edward Johnston: No. Is
there any other vote which will assist in the building of the Monkman pass highway?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The matter is now under consideration. Strong representations have been made for the building of the Monkman pass highway, which runs from the Peace River country out to some point-


René-Antoine Pelletier: Hansard.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, to Hansard, which is a point on the Canadian National some distance east of Prince George. At this time no one knows what the road would cost, and so far as I am concerned, in the expenditure of public money I wish to have some idea of the extent of a commitment before any pledge is given that work will be undertaken. In any event it is a moot question whether the Monkman pass road should not be undertaken as a development work. Under this mining roads transportation vote the provinces are required to put up one-third of the expenditure. Under the tourist roads vote, which will be considered later, they agree to match the amount dollar for dollar. I should think that three-quarters of the distance of the proposed Monkman pass highway is in British Columbia.


René-Antoine Pelletier: With the exception of ten miles, it would all be in British Columbia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The greater part is in British Columbia. I do not know whether the British Columbia government would agree to paying either 50 per cent or one-third of the cost, or in fact any other proportion.
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They may have ideas of spending their money elsewhere to greater advantage-I do not know. But I am quite certain of this, that before the Monkman pass road is undertaken there should be some idea of what it would cost. It would have to be a project in which the provincial government as well as the federal government would take part.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Has any official committee of the government inquired into the matter? Has there been any sort of official inquiry into the matter, as to whether or not the road should be constructed.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, seven or eight years ago a survey was run by the railways with a view to building a railway from the Peace River area to connect up with what is now called the Canadian National Railways, running to Prince Rupert. The report of that survey is available for perusal. If my memory serves me correctly, the estimated cost of building a railway from the Peace River district through this pass to connect up with the line through to Prince Rupert was about 816.000,000.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I had not that in mind when I asked the question. I know what took place in connection with the railway outlet. Have representations been made by citizens in that area, or by the government of British Columbia or Alberta, and if so what disposition of those representations has been made by the department? Has the department appointed a committee of its own personnel to inquire into the feasibility or otherwise of the proposal? They must have had to come to some decision to give replies to the various governments, individuals and organizations interested. What steps were taken to ascertain whether the road would or would not be built?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should think it likely that representations have come in. I do not recall that we had any from the Alberta or the British Columbia government-in fact I am quite certain there was none from the British Columbia government. Naturally the people in the community who wished to have the road built have made representations. I think the boards of trade in some of the districts have made representation; but of course it is not a new thing for the government to receive representations from boards of trade. But if the hon. member's question is as to wffiether or not up to the present time steps have been taken to find out what the cost of the road would be, then the answer is no.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Mr. Crerar.l
Indian affairs branch.
157. Indian agencies, $749,703.
George Halsey Perley: I understand that in
several places two or three reserves have been placed under the administration of one agency, and I should like to know what success has been achieved in pursuing this policy. Could the minister make a statement as to any change in policy contemplated this year in connection with farming on the agencies? Is it the intention to carry out community farming or to have the Indians carry on community work in connection with vegetable growing, grain growing and other matters? I understand that this is a new feature which may be adopted this year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There have been a few
instances where the agencies have been combined for purposes of economy, but I do not recall at the moment that this has been extensive.
With regard to the other point raised by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley), the department is paying a good deal of attention to the development of what may be described as community farms or community undertakings in the way of growing vegetables and providing proper places for their storage. The question of establishing what, for the lack of a better term, might be described as community farms, is under consideration. I think it is altogether likely that where conditions are suitable an effort will be made in that direction. We have in mind in connection with the operation of such a farm the paying of wages to the Indians and the charging of all expenses of operation against the farm. The net earnings, if any, would be distributed to the Indians entitled to receive them. In passing, I may say that the Indian problem in may respects is a most difficult one, but I think some progress is being made particularly in connection with community gardens. When I undertook the administration of this department I was shocked at the amount of relief that was being paid to Indians all over the country. The departmental officials feel that this amount can be steadily reduced by encouraging the Indians to do more in providing their own food supplies and other necessities.


George Halsey Perley: What is the reason for
the increase in this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that in other
years the expenses connected with the payment of treaty money were paid under another vote, but this year they are under this vote.

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Thomas Reid: I should like to draw the
attention of the minister to a grievance in British Columbia which has cropped up lately. I refer to the leasing of Indian lands to orientals. In British Columbia there are two marketing boards, the potato marketing board and the vegetable marketing board, and the difficulties of operating under this legislation have been increased to some extent by the number of orientals engaged in this industry. Perhaps the minister will know that something like 628 acres have been leased to orientals by the various agencies throughout British Columbia. In the Vancouver district and the district which I have the honour to represent something like 109 acres have been leased by the Indian department to Chinese. I was surprised to learn that three of these Chinese are registered in Hongkong. The viewpoint of the people of British Columbia is that these lands should not be leased to Chinese. It is true that private individuals who own land may sell or lease it to orientals, but I do not think the government should give a lead in this direction. I think I can safely say that the consensus of the people whom I have met is that this practice should be discontinued.


George Halsey Perley: The minister says that the increase in this vote is on account of the payment of treaty money, but he will notice from the particulars on page 117 of the estimates that there is an increase of $21,000 in travelling expenses.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Those expenses are in
connection with the payment of treaty money. In many instances the officers of the department must travel by aeroplane which is a much quicker means of transportation than the old method of travelling by canoe or whatever conveyance could be obtained into the more remote districts. I am informed that this increase arises largely through the travelling expenses of officials which in former years did not come under this particular vote. In connection with the point raised by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid), I may say that in many districts in British Columbia this is an acute question.


Mr. STIRLING:: It certainly is.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: But the department finds itself in the position of being in a measure a trustee administering reserve lands with the consent of the Indians for the benefit of the Indians. The total acreage under lease last year was a little over 639 acres, and the yearly rental received was $7,862, substantially over $10 an acre. Of course that does not come to the government; it is placed to the credit of
the Indians on the particular reserve. A moment ago the hon. member for New Westminster stated that private individuals owning land may lease to orientals and it may be a nice question as to whether the federal government in its fiduciary relationship to the Indians should refuse to consent to rent to orientals and thus deprive the Indians of the revenue they would otherwise get. I admit that there are two sides to this question, but the practice up to the present has been to lease to orientals as well as to others and give the Indians the benefit of the rentals that accrue.


Thomas Reid: A matter has been drawn to my attention by the Art, Historical and Scientific Association, with headquarters at Vancouver, in a letter which I shall read because it perhaps explains the situation better than I can. The letter, which is dated April 3, 1939, reads:
I have been instructed by the board of directors of the Art, Historical and Scientific Association, who are the controllers of the Vancouver city museum, to draw to your attention the urgent need of some form of protective law, to prevent the now indiscriminate despoiling and removing out of Canada of the arts and crafts of our Indian tribes but even of more importance the despoiling of the prehistoric camp sites, know-n in the anthropological world as "middens" or "shell-mounds."
Year after year, groups generally consisting of students from the American universities visit the various sites and practice what is known as scientific field work and naturally take back with them the fruits of their toil.
These early "middens" can safely be left as they now stand and as they have done so for some three to four thousand years, until such times that the Canadian museums can secure funds to carry out this important work.
Most countries interested in procuring their past histories have taken steps to prevent this pilfering. Egypt, Siam and Mexico are a few examples. They control this traffic at their custom houses.
It is earnestly desired and hoped that some more stringent law be passed and put into force, to give the protection that is so urgently needed and we trust that you will give this matter your careful attention.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The question my hon. friend raises is one of some importance. It has been before the department and is receiving consideration. I am not in a position at the moment to say what we might or might not be able to do in the direction of the request contained in the letter. There are a great many of these historic places associated with the past of the Indians in British Columbia. From the information which the department has on the matter I do not think the dangers are as great as the letter read by my hon. friend would indicate.
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Henry Herbert Stevens: I find it difficult to understand the minister's explanation that this vote has been increased by the transfer to the department of the expenses of the treatymaking branch. A glance at the details shows that the number of employees has been reduced by eleven, and yet the travelling expenses are increased by $20,000. If it is costing $20,000 simply to let them travel by aeroplane where formerly they travelled by more old-fashioned methods, it is a question whether the increase of $20,000 is justified. I think we should have some assurance that the extra $20,000 is warranted for travelling expenses. There do not seem to be any details which would show that the increase is on account of the transfer of the staff necessary to take care of the treaties. There is also an increase in temporary assistance amounting to about $18,000. These rather large items should be susceptible of explanation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last year the expenses of paying treaty money were under the next vote, 158, reserves and trusts. That vote shows a decrease this year but not as great as the increase in the vote we are now considering.


Henry Herbert Stevens: A decrease of $10,735.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, and the increase in the item before us is $34,751.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is right.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a normal growth of work in the administration of Indian agencies. There is a decrease in the number of permanent employees but an increase in the number of temporary employees. The increase is on account of the administration of Indian agencies.


Harry James Barber: In what provinces is treaty money paid? It is not paid in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Treaty money is paid out in the three prairie provinces and on some reserves in Ontario.


Harry James Barber: But not in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-Medical.
159.	Indian hospitals and general care of Indians, $1,259,215.
George Halsey Perley: Has the minister in contemplation any additions to hospitals or construction of new hospitals in Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is nothing in this vote for additional hospital facilities in Saskatchewan.


George Halsey Perley: Nor in the supplementaries?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think not.


George Halsey Perley: Would the minister give us a little detail with respect to the medical services rendered and the cost of same on the Crooked Lake, Assiniboine and Qu'Appelle reserves and the cost of dental services on each of these reserves?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the information before me at the moment, but I can have it prepared and sent to my hon. friend.


George Halsey Perley: I should like to have it put on the record, perhaps a little later in the evening.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If the information is
urgently required I shall let the item stand.
Item stands.
Indian Affairs branch-Medical.
160.	Grants to hospitals, $6,000.


John Ritchie MacNicol: While I have no Indians in my riding, except those who might be on the white Indian list if it is still maintained in the province, nevertheless for a number of years I have been deeply interested in the whole Indian situation in Canada. During the past few years I have had the pleasure of having several Indian guides with me on extensive journeys over unsettled country and up and down the rivers and lakes, and I have become greatly interested in them. I had the good fortune on more than one occasion of having a talk with the late Chief Grey Owl, whose name we see frequently in the press even to-day. In the course of these travels I have traversed quite a number of the reserves, and I am happy to say that I have noticed an increase under the present minister in the department's activities among the Indians. Perhaps I should not go out of my way to throw him too many bouquets, but I have come across his tracks on more than one trip. I have been pleased with his interest in the Indians, and I am satisfied that he is doing his best. However, there is a very great deal of improvement to be made.
I have long wondered, recalling that the North American Indians in former years produced such men as Brant, Red Jacket, Tecum-seh and other famous chiefs and great men capable of negotiating with the whites and taking care of their own affairs, why it is that in these later days, after association with the whites for generation after generation, our Indians apparently are unable to take care of themselves even as successfully as those whom we call black men in South Africa and the coloured races elsewhere. Why is it that the

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Indians, who have been taken care of by the government and treated more or less as children, are apparently unable to go out and take care of themselves?


An hon. MEMBER:: That is the reason.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I believe that in the
United States considerable efforts have been made on behalf of the Indians in the last few years. I have made quite an investigation in many state capitals where there are Indian branches. They have been trying to elevate the Indian and have made, I believe, important progress in that direction.
All I have to say on this subject I will say in relation to these three items dealing with Indian welfare, medicine and education.
On some of the reservations there are hospitals. The one at Oshweken, in the Six Nations reservation, is doing splendid work. The doctors and nurses give good value for every dollar which is spent there. Comparing the medical care and attention given on the Six Nations reservation and on the next reserve west, the Muncey reservation, I find this difference. Indians, both mothers and fathers, love their children, if possible more intensely than do white parents; when the children have to leave the Muncey reserve and go to a hospital at London or in that neighbourhood for medical or hospital attention, the parents fret far more than is necessary; and whatever member of their family is away at the hospital is no less distracted at having to be absent from home. On the other hand on the Six Nations reservation, as the parents are in close touch with their children when in hospital, and can go to them in a very short time, there is not the same distraction as occurs on the reservations where there are no hospitals. So it would be a great help to them if the department could provide money to build even a small hospital on a reservation. It would be better in every way for the Indians. It is said that many parents whose children may be slightly affected with tuberculosis keep them at home rather than send them some distance to a hospital. I hope that the minister will find the time and money to arrange for the equipment of the larger reserves with hospitals, somewhat after the style and with the equipment of the one at Oshweken. In northern Ontario, where I have been a great deal in the past few years, I find that sick Indians have to be sent a hundred or a hundred and fifty miles away; there is a marked absence of hospital facilities on the reserves.
With regard to the educational system in vogue in Canada for the instruction of the Indians, I do not know that it is the best.

In the United States practically all the schools are under the federal government. I am not referring unkindly to religious or denominational education institutions-for these do good work-when I say that in the whole of the United States there are probably not more than twenty-four such Indian schools, with 2,000 pupils, whereas 26,000 Indian children go to schools operated by the government; and I am told over there that the latter type of education has been found to be better-I do not know whether that is the case or not. Nor do I know whether the schools we have in Canada are getting better results than those of the United States, but our neighbours must have some reason for placing the education of the Indian children largely under the federal government.


Harry James Barber: That is so here.


John Ritchie MacNicol: No. Most of the Indian children in this country are educated at denominational institutions. I have been to a number of them.


Harry James Barber: They get the federal grant.


John Ritchie MacNicol: They get the federal grant, but I am speaking of their being under the control of the federal government. I do not know which is the better system, but I say that in the south they follow the system of public education by the government.
The children educated in our schools are taught all kinds of domestic science, and, among other things, nursing. I know of a case where a young woman who had been sent away to be trained as a nurse found, when she came home, that there was no nursing for her to do on the reservation. White nurses were used exclusively. I hope the minister will be able to develop a system whereby Indian girls trained as nurses can be given employment at reservation hospitals; at least, at those hospitals devoted to the care of Indians. I do not mean that there should not be any white nurses, but consideration should be given to the employment of a certain number of Indian nurses at institutions to which Indians go for medical attention.
The same consideration applies to schools. When these children go home, to what do they go? I went to one reservation and found that a veiy bright young woman had just come back from an Indian training school. She came to a cottage or hut ten feet bj? twelve feet. Her father and mother and the three or four other members of the family lived in that small hut. Under such conditions these young people will merely revert to what they were before they went away
170S

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Surely the department can develop some system whereby Indian children, at least those trained in the residential schools, can have a better place to go than to return to a hut ten feet by twelve and to the conditions which apply in a place of that description.
Another thing I found was that a great deal of the territory formerly hunted over by the Indians is being over-run. Take northern Ontario from Sudlbury west and north of lake Nipigon, east and west along the Albany river, east andi west along the Ogoki river, from Nipigon south; that whole territory, which was formerly a hunting ground of the Indians, is over-run by whites. What are the Indians going to do when once that territory is settled? Whites are travelling all through that country, and when they come to a hunting ground or a place where the Indians have traps they chase the Indians away. I do not know why the Indians do not maintain their traps. I have thought at different times that surely there is some way to employ the Indian more effectively by teaching him more than he learns in the schools. Are the young Indians taught how to handle and understand outboard motors, or rather are they thoroughly trained in the operation of outboard motors? Some of the guides I have had with me were splendid guides, but when the outboard motor got out of condition they had to paddle, sometimes a long distance. I think the government owes something to the young Indian guide. Indians make splendid guides. I trust myself to them on the most dangerous rivers, and they are absolutely reliable and entirely honest.	.
It has also occurred to me that while the government, to encourage the fine young fellows, gives them badges, after an Indian has performed service as a guide for five years he might 'be given, in addition to the badge, a star and bar like a railway conductor wears, and after a further five years another star could be awarded. They take a great pride in meriting any little courtesy shown them. These guides deserve consideration, and I hope the minister will consider the suggestion. The minister said something about treaty money. I suggest that when Indians receive treaty money no one should be allowed on the reservation except government officials and the Indians themselves, because certain white people-I will not characterize them any more fully-flock to the Indian reservations when they know that treaty money has been received, and they are usually able to find out. I do not think sales agents should be
[Mr. MacNicol.l
allowed to go there such times. Let the Indians spend the money as they see fit, and not on cheap jewellery sold at high prices.
With reference to the Oshweken or Six Nations band, who are perhaps more advanced than other bands of Indians in the more settled part of the country, I would urge upon the minister the importance of properly housing the historic relics that are scattered all through that district. I came across some excellent relics in Brantford'-a good place for them-and among other things I saw a beautiful sash given by the Indians to the daughter of the Indian agent, the head of the reservation, at the time of the Duke of Connaught's visit years ago. It is highly prized. I wonder if the department would consider erecting a small museum at Oshweken, Brant county, in which could be gathered together all these Indian relics, which in due course will be lost to the country unless some effort is made to collect and preserve them.
In conclusion, I believe the minister is doing the best he can, and I wish him every success in his efforts further to elevate the standards of the Indians.


Mr. McIVOR:: I wish to say a word for my fellow Indians; for I am one of them, having been honoured by reception into a glorious clan during the past summer, just after the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe) received his degrees. The two schools I visited at lake Nipigon were as fine as anything I expect to see in the way of education, and the community work there is highly commendable. I saw forty young folks digging potatoes a,nd having a happy time looking after the digging machines. Our agent there is a man of outstanding ability, and when their majesties visited the head of the lakes they were surprised at the display put on. It was no doubt a stepping-stone to the great exhibition at Calgary where his majesty was made honorary chief. I congratulate the minister on his work and the work of our agent at the head of the lakes. We believe we have a first-class man. I hope that the good work done in hospitalization will be kept up.


Harry James Barber: Does this item 160 relate entirely to grants to municipal hospitals^ or hospitals erected by churches or other institutions outside the department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The vote this year is $6,000. It is proposed to give a grant of $1,000 to the hospital at Berens River, Manitoba, and $5,000 to the hospital at Quesnel in British Columbia. These grants are given to assist hospitals in remote places, to increase or improve their facilities and afford medical care to Indians in the adjacent district. There is no fixed

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rule or method of procedure in giving this assistance. I understand it is a practice that has been followed for years. The hospitals are mainly associated with the missionary work carried on by the churches. In some instances they are municipal, but usually, almost invariably, this assistance is confined to hospitals that are in the more or less remote districts. If we can make provision to have Indians cared for in such hospitals it saves a good deal of transportation expense in having them taken elsewhere for treatment.


Harry James Barber: Are these grants for the construction of hospitals or for treatment?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The grants are to aid in providing facilities; they are not for treatment. A per diem allowance is paid the hospital during the time the Indian patient is confined to it. The grant to Berens River is to assist in getting a lighting plant. I have no details as to what provision will be made at Quesnel in British Columbia, but the purpose is to provide additional beds or to improve existing facilities.


Harry James Barber: Over $30,000 was spent last year.
_ Mr. CRERAR: Last year $25,000 was spent in the Northwest Territories. There were three hospitals assisted: one at Fort Resolution, one at Fort Rae and one at Fort Norman.


Thomas Reid: I would draw the minister's attention to serious allegations made in British Columbia by medical men and by the provincial minister of health, who has publicly stated that Ottawa does hamper the treatment of tuberculosis in that province. They say that the grant given by the dominion does not begin to scratch the surface, pointing out that 2,600 active cases were tabulated last year. The minister may be increasing the appropriation this year. Is that a fact? I think the seriousness of the charge should be brought to his attention and something more than has been done so far should be undertaken.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The year before last we
started with a small vote looking to the treatment of tuberculosis among the Indians. Last year the appropriation was $250,000, and this year we propose to spend about $300,000. That is to be divided among the Indian population in the various provinces. I am not in a position to say what share of that will go to British Columbia. It will be a substantial portion, because there are more than 25,000 Indians in that province. The approach to the problem of handling tuberculosis among the Indians has been first through the schools. Surveys have been made of the residential schools and the children found to be infected
have been segregated in order to prevent the spread of the disease to healthy children. As our funds permitted, these surveys were made in order to get a general cross-section of the tuberculosis condition on some reserves, and in some instances sanatorium treatment was provided.
I can say quite frankly that this aspect of the medical problem among our Indians is serious, and only within the last two or three years has any particular attention been paid to the question of a program looking to the eradication of tuberculosis among the Indians in much the same way that this is being done in the various provinces for the white population. I can say, however, that in developing and carrying out such a program we have had the benefit of the advice of the medical authorities of each province charged with the handling of the tuberculosis problem among the white population, and here I should like to pay a tribute of thanks to them; they have been most helpful in every way possible. But I would emphasize to the committee that at the moment we are really laying down a line of attack on this problem so far as the Indians are concerned, and it may well be that within the next year or two we shall have to ask for larger appropriations for this purpose.


Mr. ROSS (St. Paul's):: Does the minister mean that all this work has been done in connection with the Indians of British Columbia, or has some of it been done in connection with the Indians of the Georgian bay district, for instance? There are some reserves in the Georgian bay area, and I would ask what has been done for them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: All of it has not been done in British Columbia; the work has been carried on in all the provinces, but up to the present it has consisted largely of surveys of the Indian school population in order to see how many of the Indian children were afflicted.
I am sorry to say that in some instances the percentage ran pretty high. I am told that a survey was made of Manitoulin island, but at the moment I have not before me the results of that survey.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I had in mind that a great deal of money is spent and a good deal of work done by the people who have summer homes and who belong to clubs in the Georgian bay district. There is one Indian village just south of Moose point. I do not know where they get their money, but I know the taxes on their properties are very high. I am not aware that any money has been spent there by the dominion govern-
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meat, either in connection with schools or in connection with medical services. I remember that last year I asked the Minister of Transport if he would not put a few more buoys in that part of Georgian bay-


Clarence Decatur Howe: For the canoes?


Douglas Gooderham Ross: No, largely for
the benefit of the Indians. The summer people who go there do a great deal for the Indians, and I am just wondering how much of this money is spent by the government in that area south of Moose point, at Parry's island and Beausoleil.


Mr. WOOD:: I should like to express my commendation of the efforts made by the government during the last two or three years towards eradicating tuberculosis among the Indians. I represent perhaps the largest reserve in Canada, and I have seen the wonderful interest taken and the effort made by the Indians to free themselves of this dreaded disease. I believe the department has been very wise in the method it has followed in the expenditure of public money for this purpose, in endeavouring to cooperate with the local sanatoriums. In the city of Brantford we have a sanatorium well equipped for this treatment which has one ward very little used, which I believe they are prepared to make available to the Indian department to assist in the treatment of this disease. In that area we. have some 5,000 Indians surrounded by whites, and naturally we realize the importance of helping to keep those Indians healthy, because, after all, if they are not healthy they jeopardize the health of the white people. Of course we should not look at the matter only from the point of view of the interest of the whites; the Indians are a race worthy of being maintained. They have made and can still make a great contribution to the national life of this country. I believe this government, and particularly the Minister of Mines and Resources, have done a great deal to free the Indians of this terrible disease, and I have seen the result of these efforts right in my own locality. I believe the fact that the department is cooperating with the local institutions will ensure that we get the greatest possible value for the public money which is spent in this way.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry I cannot give the hon. member for St. Paul's the detailed information for which he asks. I can say this, that the total amount expended in Ontario last year for the survey of Indian schools and Indian children was $4,811. I should add that this work is carried on in cooperation with the authorities in the provinces, and as
	.
I said a moment ago they have been most helpful in providing the facilities and, in many instances, the technicians necessary for the X-ray work and that sort of thing. That cooperation-and I may say we have received it in every province-has enabled the department to perform a great deal more work than otherwise would have been possible with the amount of money at our disposal. According to my recollection, this $4,811 was for the purchase of extra equipment, such as photographic plates and the like, necessary in connection with this work. We have in Ontario seventy-nine patients under treatment in sanatoria. How many of those came from the Georgian bay district I am unable to say. If, however, the hon. member is desirous of getting that information I shall see if it is possible to segregate it.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: The Indian settlements in the Georgian bay district add much to the tourist trade in that area. Private citizens who have camps round there have been generous in their gifts towards the eradication of tuberculosis. Having in mind the advantage of maintaining those Indians, so far as the tourist trade and their usefulness to Canada are concerned, I think special consideration should be given to the matter. In addition to the pecuniary advantages to be derived, we must not lose sight of the humanitarian side of the question, because the Indians suffer great hardships. I should like to see more funds allocated next year to the care of the Indians in the Georgian bay district.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs branch-Welfare and training.
161.	Welfare of Indians, $983,740.
Mr. MacNICOL-: How many Indians are engaged in the department at Ottawa, or in any of the administrative services throughout Canada?
Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are several in Ottawa, in the government service, but I am unable to state the precise number.


Thomas Reid: On February 13 of this year the Minister of Mines and Resources made a speech over the air. in which he said:
One of the most noteworthy features of the rehabilitation program is the reawakening of interest in Indian arts and crafts.
Further on he stated:
It is the intention of the department to encourage production of only high quality materials and to assure, wherever possible, continuity of supply. An attempt is being made to open up markets where these products can be sold at a reasonable price, but nevertheless a price that will encourage the Indian to excel in his craftsmanship.

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This year in the debate on the budget I exhibited two totem poles, and brought them to the attention of the house, but I believe on that occasion the minister was unavoidably absent. To-night I should like to tell him what is taking place in British Columbia. In my right hand I show him a totem pole carved by an Indian in North Vancouver. In my left hand I hold a totem pole marked "made in Japan," and it has not even the likeness of an Indian, but rather that of a Mongolian. But visitors from the United States and elsewhere who are looking for Indian craftsmanship have the Japanese article foisted on them as being an Indian totem pole.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is it marked "made in Japan"?


Thomas Reid: Yes. The Japanese article, of course, has no connection with any Indian craft, and does not compare at all favourably with the one made by the Indians. This is a craft which belongs to the Indians of North America, and no country should be permitted to take an advantage of this kind. I thought the procedure was patented, but I am taking this opportunity of bringing the matter to the attention of the minister. The Japanese article should not be allowed to come into the country and be sold as an Indian totem pole. It has no resemblance to the real article, but is palmed off on those who do not know, and it is sold at practically the same price.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: Has anything been done to patent Indian craftsmanship such as that shown by the hon. member for New Westminster?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; it might be rather difficult to patent a totem pole. They are made in many different forms in many places by many Indians. I realize the point raised by the hon. member for New Westminster is an important one, and some consideration has been given to it, not only in regard to totem poles but in regard to other classes of Indian handicraft work. The Japanese have placed quantities of articles on the Canadian market, and, I assume, on the markets of other countries. I think under our law it is necessary that they indicate on their goods the country of origin, but the purchaser does not always examine closely enough to see whether or not it is a genuine piece of Indian handicraft or an imitation. I do not know what could be done, short of putting a ban on those imports, and perhaps that would be a rather serious step to take. So long as articles are clearly marked "made in Japan," 71492-296
the purchaser must be aware that he is buying not the genuine Indian handicraft but a spurious article made in a foreign country.


Thomas Reid: The trouble is that the mark is very small. One can scarcely see it, and many visitors do not think of looking for it. They ask if it is an Indian totem pole, and when they are told that it is they buy it as such. There is no use in encouraging the making of these totem poles so long as the Japanese article is permitted to compete. Through this competition the Indians are deprived of part of their livelihood, and I would ask the minister to look into the matter in order to see what can be done to prevent the sale of these importations.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The matter has been and is under consideration.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It strikes me that the handicraft work of Indians in Canada could be copyrighted.


Thomas Reid: Hear, hear.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Frankly, I think it could be. Certainly it is worth while studying the matter and making the strongest possible effort to enforce copyright restrictions. But if that is not possible I think parliament should not hesitate definitely to prohibit the importation of alleged copies of Indian handicraft work. Those of us who live in British Columbia are well acquainted with the history and stories of the totem pole. Those stories and the totem poles are peculiar to the Indians; they are not created out of fancy, but are of long standing and of great historical value. I suggest that the department should take up the question of copyrighting not only totem poles but other handicraft work of the Indians, not only in British Columbia but in other parts of Canada as well. If that cannot be done, then I certainly suggest that we should prohibit the importation of articles which are obviously spurious copies of Indian handicraft.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The difficulty arises only in British Columbia, so far as Japanese competition is concerned.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Which makes it all the more simple, and all the more emphatic.


Douglas Gooderham Ross: I should like to support my colleague with regard to this matter. The same observations would apply to the work of the Indians in the Georgian bay and Timagami districts. When one goes to Gravenhurst, or to the various points in that district, he finds the country flooded with souvenirs, consisting of baskets and articles of that kind, and if a person were to

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look close enough he would find on a bottom corner "made in UJ3A." We must remember that this provides one of the livelihoods of our Indians. As I said before, they contribute a great deal toward attracting tourist trade by their colourfulness, and I cannot understand why they should have to meet this competition. We should do everything in our power to protect the production of these tourist souvenirs. We talk about the value to Canada of our tourist trade, but I often wonder how much that trade is worth when United States visitors come to Canada and buy souvenirs with the words "made in the United States" or something else on the bottom. Sometimes the article is made in the United States, but is not marked. If we are going to conserve the benefits of our tourist trade for the people of this country and for our Indians, we should see that they have the opportunity of making these articles.


John Horne Blackmore: I should like to
associate myself definitely with the remarks of the last three hon. gentlemen. There is an Indian reservation in my constituency, and I can remember when I was a small boy that the Indians had the ability to do i*emarkable bits of work. They seem to be losing that ability to a large extent, and I was wondering whether any effort was being made in the Indian schools to develop among the Indian youth that ability which their fathers used to have in the manufacturing of handicraft articles.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I will deal with that question under the next item.


John Horne Blackmore: We should absolutely prohibit the importation of imitation Indian goods. Our Indians can supply the needs of the tourists. I know if I were a tourist and visited a country in which there were Indians, if I purchased a piece of what I supposed was Indian work and found that it had been made in Japan or in some other country I would not feel so kindly disposed toward the country which permitted that to take place. It would be an attraction to tourists if they were assured that the Indian articles they purchased were really made by them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
162.	Welfare and training-Indian education, $624,190.
Major James William Coldwell: Under this and the next item there is an expenditure of approximately $2,000,000 for education. The other evening when I heard over the radio one of our Indian chiefs addressing Their Majesties the King and Queen at Calgary, I was struck with the excellent English vocabulary he had,

a vocabulary which would have done credit to any English-speaking person. I have often wondered why more of our Indian children do not receive better educations. A couple of years ago I visited the Indian school at Duncan, British Columbia. This is a mixed school presided over by a young lady. I do not think it was a denominational school, but the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) will know. I know something of school work; I looked over the work being done in this school quite carefully, and in my opinion the Indian children compared quite well with children in the same grades in an English-speaking country school.
What facilities are provided to permit Indian children to go beyond the grade schools? What encouragement is given them to continue with their high school work and perhaps prepare themselves to go back among the Indians and lead them toward that kind of life which perhaps they would lead in a more civilized society? I notice in looking over the details of this item that the bulk of the expenditures is for the residential schools and I see from the details that there are two inspectors of Indian schools, one at $2,460 and one at $600 for part-time services. Are these the only inspectional services provided? With the number of schools and the great distances that separate them, it would seem to me that this inspection service would be entirely inadequate to meet our needs.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With the exception of British Columbia and New Brunswick, I believe I am correct in saying that the inspection of Indian schools is carried out by the inspectors of the departments of education in the various provinces. I think the work of inspection is fairly well provided for in that way.
Perhaps I may say a word or two now in regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol). When one is dealing with the question of education one is dealing with something in connection with which difficulties may readily arise. I think it is a fair statement to say that education among the Indians had its genesis in the missionary efforts toward Christianizing the Indians which were made many years ago. It quickly became apparent to the missionaries of all religious denominations that if any progress were to be made, a different environment would have to be thrown round the Indians. This led to the development of residential schools which under the circumstances largely became church schools aided

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by the state. In. many instances the state built the school; in others it assisted in the building, and in others the church built the school. In all instances the residential schools are operated with a grant from the federal government on the basis of pupil enrolment to assist in carrying on the work of education. In addition to the residential schools, there is a large number of day schools. For the information of the committee I may say that there are in operation in Canada eighty residential schools and 277 day schools. I can give the information by provinces if it is required.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It is all in the reports.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Trends in modern education have been fairly well marked within the last decade or two. I think educationalists have improved methods; at any rate, they t'hink they have, and I daresay they are right. There has been an improvement in educational matters, not only in our universities but in our public and day schools, and the same thing applies to our Indian schools.
My acquaintance with the department and my observation have led me pretty definitely to the conclusion that sufficient emphasis was not placed upon the vocational training of the Indian children. The problem arose, and it arises to-day, which was mentioned by the hon. member for Davenport a short time ago. Indian children, at the age of five or six years, are brought in to the residential schools, very often quite a distance from the reserves where their parents live, and they stay in residence because the school desires to keep them until they are at least fifteen or sixteen years of age. The purpose was to keep the children removed for as long a period as possible from the influences of the reserve, often remote, on which they had been born and lived until they came into the residential school. It has not always, I am bound to say, worked out well. An Indian lad or an Indian girl stays in the residential school until sixteen or seventeen or eighteen years of age.
When they leave school the only place for the great majority of them to go is back to the reserves from which they were taken at the age of five or six or seven. Very often it was found that they were unable to apply on the reserve the knowledge they had obtained in the schools, and during the period from six to sixteen or seventeen years in which they had been away from the reserve they had lost the opportunity of acquiring some of the arts, crude as they may have been, which their parents practised on the reserve and in their daily vocations. So, while 71492-2941
one finds some of the older women on the reserves, particularly in the northern parts of the provinces, highly skilled in certain classes of needlework, bead work and the like, these arts have largely been lost to the youngsters who have passed through the residential schools. As a result there is an increasing recognition to-day among all the churches- and I cannot praise the efforts of the churches too highly-of the need of giving direction to the activities of the school in the way of vocational training. As a consequence the boys in the residential schools are more and more being provided with the opportunity of becoming acquainted, for instance, with the operation of an outboard motor on a canoe, and of learning something about the gasoline engine of an outboard motor, knowledge which can be put to practical use when the lad leaves school and goes in for hunting or trapping or whatever his vocation may be. That is something of practical value.
The development of handicraft, art, skill in weaving and the like among the girls has also been marked in some of the residential schools. It is the intention of the department, I may say to the hon. member for New Westminster, to encourage that in every way possible. Some of the Indians have shown remarkable skill in handicraft work and they can be wisely assisted in improving their technique in these arts. Recently we have opened up a branch of the department which supplies these raw materials to many of the Indian girls and boys, and undertakes to market the products of their skill. While it is early yet to reach any definite conclusion, I think a definite field of usefulness is opening up in that direction.


Major James William Coldwell: I agree with the minister that we should encourage vocational training of the Indian boys and girls. Is any provision made for the Indian boy or girl who shows particular aptitude as a scholar continuing to higher education?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Major James William Coldwell: How many are taken beyond the public school grade?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About $24,000 was spent last year in assisting them through scholarships, sending them on to high school and some to universities.


Major James William Coldwell: How many go on to high school and how many to universities?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Unfortunately I have not the numbers here, but where a pupil shows aptitude and a desire to continue his education we try to find means of assisting him to do so.

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* Mr. COLDWELL: Do any of the residential
schools give advanced education?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know just what the hon. member means by advanced education.


Major James William Coldwell: Beyond the entrance to high school.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The pupils ordinarily go up to grade 8 or 9 in the residential school.


Major James William Coldwell: Are all these residential schools inspected?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed they are.


Major James William Coldwell: Are the reports filed with the minister?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, with the department.


Major James William Coldwell: I suppose we could get
them if we wanted to see them, in order to find out how the pupils rank.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, any reports that we have would be available.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-Welfare and training.
163.	Grants to residential schools, $1,335,571.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the department
require that these residential schools shall be fire-proof? I have in mind the residential school on the Muncey reserve, a well conducted, well operated, school, with efficient master and teachers, but the school looked to me anything but fire-proof.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret to say that many of these schools are not fire-proof. Where a new school is 'being built to replace one burnt down, the department endeavours to see that it is made as fire-proof as possible, but I must say that many of the existing schools are not fire-proof.


Harry James Barber: The grant payable is based upon the number of pupils in attendance?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Harry James Barber: What is the amount of the grant in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It ranges from $1.50 to $2.50 per capita.


Harry James Barber: Do not some of these schools take care of more pupils than are covered by the government grant? There is one at Mission City operated by the Roman Catholic church, and about a year ago they complained greatly that they were not receiving anywhere near the full grant and they had to put up the extra themselves.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that there
are some schools where the grant is not being paid to the full pupilage at the school.


Harry James Barber: Is it not the intention of
the department to pay the full grant?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that in those instances the school authorities or the principal may admit more pupils than the number for which provision was made in the grant; consequently they cannot get the grant for those additional pupils. At the beginning of each year we have to make an estimate as to what will be required under this vote. We estimate it as accurately as possible upon the information in our possession; but if, after that estimate is made, the school authorities or the principal who stated they wanted provision made for, say 150 pupils, should take in 160, we have not the funds to pay for the additional pupils.


Harry James Barber: But how can the children
be kept out? In connection with this particular school, the father who was in charge came down a few years ago and told me that, owing to conditions then existing, Indians from all along the coast were bringing the children down and practically leaving them on the school doorstep. That was the condition they were up against at that time. Whether it has been remedied, I do not know.


George Halsey Perley: How many residential
schools are there in Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Fourteen.


George Halsey Perley: How many are in attendance at the residential school at Lebret, and what was the grant to that school?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know whether
I have the information as to the attendance. The hon. member refers to the Qu'Appelle school?


George Halsey Perley: Lebret.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is given here as
"Qu'Appelle." There were 250 pupils; the rate was $170 a year per capita, and the total amount paid was $42,500.


George Halsey Perley: And the residential school
at Crooked lakes?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is given here under
the name of Cowesses, which I assume is the one to which my hon. friend refers.


George Halsey Perley: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The pupils there number
90; the per capita rate is $165, and the total amount paid last year was $14,850.

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Harry James Barber: Have what are known as
the preventoriums, which have been established at some of the residential schools, been set up at all the residential schools in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Harry James Barber: At what schools are they
operating?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that in
British Columbia there are preventoriums at Alert Bay and at Coqualeetza.


Harry James Barber: Is there not one at Mission City-St. Mary's school, I think it is?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the moment I have
not the information.


John Horne Blackmore: There is one matter
which should be discussed. I do not know whether it comes under this item or not. Has the department taken any steps to make up to the Indians what they have lost because of their inability to find seasonal employment? There was a time, ten or fifteen years ago, when at almost any time in the spring or fall Indians could go off their reservation and find work such as, in my constituency, beet work and picking up potatoes. Nowadays it is almost impossible for the Indians to get that work. At the same time, so far as I am informed, no extra allowance because of that condition is being made to the Indians. The result is that those on the reservation in my constituency are in really a bad way economically. Has the minister thought about that matter and has anything been done?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is that the Blood reserve?


John Horne Blackmore: I would suppose that the situation applied throughout the country.
Here is another illustration. An Indian used to be able to go in the harvest field and make a fair amount of money by stooking grain, hauling, threshing, and that sort of thing. The coming in of the combine has virtually eliminated all that work; and the anxiety of whites to get work in the beet fields, the potato fields and in any other kind of seasonal employment there may happen to be has filled the field so far as the Indians are concerned. The result is that they are much hampered in trying to make a living, and they are suffering just as much as.are the whites from the low prices of cattle and other products which they produce. To-day they are in a serious plight, to which we have probably not given sufficient attention. Has the matter been brought to the notice of the minister?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Which reserve has my hon friend in mind?	.


John Horne Blackmore: The one in my constituency is the Blood Indian reserve. I assume, though, that the condition applies to all reservations.
To follow this up a little, some years ago the Indians who raised cattle were sure of a profitable market. The same was true of those who raised horses, and in my constituency they used to raise them in great numbers. Everyone knows that to-day there is nothing in the raising of horses, and as for cattle, one cannot sell them for as much as they cost to produce. The result is that the Indians are seriously handicapped.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That particular reserve is agricultural. The total quantity of all grains produced on the reserve last year, I am informed by the deputy, was around 250,000 bushels. It also carries a considerable number of live stock-horses and cattle. It is quite true that the Indians there are agriculturists; and while they may not be farming as successfully as some of their white compatriots, they are making good progress. During the period of low prices of agricultural products they have suffered as other agricultural communities have suffered, but I am not aware there is any hardship on the reserve. So far as the future is concerned, it appears to me that the solution in respect of that reserve is to develop grain growing, stock raising and the like. I believe there is some reason for expecting that the Indians there will make steady progress in that direction. In many, many instances they are doing very well.


Major James William Coldwell: How many heads of families are there on that reserve?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot tell the hon.
member now.


Major James William Coldwell: Well, how many Indians are on that reservation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that there are about 1,300.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch-Welfare and training
1!'))(. Grants to agricultural exhibitions and Indian fairs, in the amounts detailed in the estimates, $6,645.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Has this grant been m existence for more than a few years?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Oh, yes, it has been in existence for many years.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I was under the impre.- sion that the minister started it. At any rate
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the grant has been a great encouragement to Indian farmers, and I was wondering why it was so small.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is for Indian exhibits at fairs. I do not know when it was initiated, but it goes back a number of years.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It has encouraged the Indian.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. It has aroused a good deal of interest on the reserves.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
165. Grant to provide for additional services to Indians of British Columbia, $100,000.
Harry James Barber: Explain.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is a special vote that has been passed for the last ten or twelve years. It was the result of the work of a special committee of the Senate and the House of Commons in the session of 1926-27. After consideration by that committee a recommendation was made of a grant of $100,000 to British Columbia. The British Columbia Indians do not receive treaty money and this is in lieu thereof.


Angus MacInnis: What are the services under " professional and special services " on page 120 of the estimates?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Medical services.


Harry James Barber: Including dental?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I assume so.


Harry James Barber: I understand the policy of the government in this regard was changed in 1936, and two men were put in charge of the whole province. Is that still the policy? How many dentists are employed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot say how many dentists are employed because there are a great many reserves in British Columbia and the dental work is spread over a large area. They are paid for actual work done.


Harry James Barber: The minister, in a return brought down last year or the year before, showed that this work was taken away from the local dentists. Two travelling dentists were engaged at $25 a day. I have not the return here, but I was wondering whether that policy had been continued.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no recollection of that.


Harry James Barber: I know the names of the Go men.
[Mr. MacNicol.3


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend must be in error, because I am informed that the practice is to employ the nearest available dentist in order to keep expenses down.


Harry James Barber: It has been changed recently then, because the return brought down gave the names of two men. One was an ex-game-warden in British Columbia and another a Doctor King. They were in charge of the dental service, travelling from reserve to reserve. I know this because I have had complaints not only from schools, but from local dentists.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot give the information to-night.


Harry James Barber: Perhaps the minister will give it under another item here.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I will get that information.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That may account for the very high increase in travelling expenses. There are seven items in which there are travelling expenses. This year the amount is $142,000 compared with $112,000 last year, an increase of $30,000. This is something that should foe checked. It is easy to fritter away money in travelling expenses. There shouid be something definite to warrant in these days an increase of $30,000 in travelling expenses.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
5%J/. To provide for repairs and improvements to government buildings and new buildings, repairs and improvements to works and new works, and assistance to building projects relating to Indian field administration, $39,500.
George Halsey Perley: Where are these buildings located?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is proposed to spend $4,000 in British Columbia, in the Skeena agency. In Alberta the expenditure will be $4,500 for construction of dams and water conservation on the Blood and Peigan agency. In Saskatchewan there is an amount of $1,500 for the construction of a house for the Indian farming instructor in the Duck Lake agency. In Ontario there is an expenditure of $4,500, from which there will be $3,000 for construction of a breakwater at McIntyre Bay and $1,500 for construction of warehouse and boathouse and dock at Orient Bay. Then there are construction and repairs to roads in Manitoba. Saskatchewan and Quebec.
Indian Affairs branch.
525.	To provide for repairs and improvements to government buildings and new buildings, and assistance to building projects relating to Indian medical field administration, $47,000.


James Alexander Marshall: Will the minister give a break-up of the figures according to provinces?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is $25,000 for British Columbia for hospital accommodation at Coqualeetza, and $22,000 for Manitoba. Of this latter amount there is $15,000 for the construction of a sanatorium at Fisher River for the care of Indians suffering from tuberculosis in this district. That is something which has been undertaken by way of experiment after consultation with those who have to do with the eradication of tuberculosis in Manitoba. Then at The Pas agency we are spending $7,000 for the construction or purchase of an office and residence for the medical superintendent.


James Alexander Marshall: Am I correct in saying that this vote is divided between two provinces only?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


James Alexander Marshall: That is $25,000 to British Columbia and $22,000 to Manitoba?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Mr NEILL:: Is there no provision for extending the hospital building at Alert Bay? I think there was a building which was to ibe renovated for use as a hospital for tuberculosis cases I have a vague idea that some $10,000 wTas involved. It was in connection with the sanatorium operated in conjunction with the school at Alert Bay, which the minister mentioned a few moments ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, there is nothing for that in this vote.


George Halsey Perley: There is nothing in the vote this year for increasing the hospital accommodation in connection with tuberculosis work, with respect to new buildings?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. These are the special
supplementaries, of course.


George Halsey Perley: Is there anything for any increased accommodation at any of the hospitals?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not beyond those mentioned.


Mr. HANSON:: Perhaps the minister could tell us how this $25,000 is to be spent in British Columbia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I gave that a moment ago. The $25,000 for British Columbia is to provide for hospital accommodation at Coqualeetza. Then for the Fisher River agency in Manitoba there is $15,000 for the construction of a sanitarium for the care of Indians suffering from tuberculosis in this locality. As I said a moment ago, that is really by way of experiment. Then there is $7,000 for the construction or purchase of an office and residence for the medical superintendent at The Pas agency.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
526.	To provide for erection of and repairs to Indian schools, $290,000.
Harry James Barber: What are the particulars of this item so far as British Columbia is concerned?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The details are as follows: for an Indian school at Cross Lake, Manitoba, to replace the school which burned down several years ago, $65,000; for the remodeling of and an addition to the Indian residential school at Sandy Bay, $40,000; for a new school at Alberni, British Columbia, to replace a school destroyed by fire on February 21, 1937, $150,000. That makes a total of $255,000 for residential schools. Then there are new day schools being built to the extent of $35,000, one in Ontario, two in Manitoba, two in Saskatchewan and one in British Columbia.


James Alexander Marshall: Nothing for British
Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The one in British Columbia is at Seton Lake.


James Alexander Marshall: There is nothing under this vote for Alberta?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not under this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian affairs branch.
527.	Fur conservation, $100,000.
Grote Stirling: What is this fur conserva>
tion?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This work was started a few years ago looking to the restoration of fur bearing animals in the northern parts of our provinces. For the information of the committee I may say that approximately one-third of the Indian population of Canada are known as hunting and trapping Indians, who live by the chase, These Indians are located in the northern parts of the various provinces. Unfortunately the lack of sound conservation methods in the past has resulted in a great depletion of the fur bearing animals, with the inevitable result that the natural mode of living of these Indians has largely vanished, and in increasing numbers they are coming upon public relief. We have endeavoured to make arrangements with the provinces, with success in several instances, to have areas set aside where we would undertake the work, for example, of putting in dams,
Vegetable Oils

or taking the necessary steps to recreate the natural conditions under which fur bearers, particularly muskrat, will propagate. Part of this vote will be spent in Manitoba, part in Saskatchewan, part in Alberta and a small amount in Quebec.


Grote Stirling: Will the Indians be
employed to do the work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, that is done so far as possible, under proper supervision. Some simple engineering work has to be done, and in some instances markers have to be set out to indicate the boundaries of the areas.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, May 30, 1939