1938-03-16

[Stage Direction]
Georges Henri Heon, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Argenteuil, introduced by Right Hon. R. B. Bennett and Mr. R. S. White.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. BROOKS:: What is the number receiving old age pensions in the province of New Brunswick under the following headings:	(a) pension of $20;
(b)	over $15 and less than $20; (c) over $10 and including $15; (d) over $5 and including $10; (e) $5 and under?


Mr. DUNNING:: As at January 31, 1938: (a) 1,015; (b) 1,351; (c) 6,599; (d) 1,880; (e) 248.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Have any requests been received from any
Canadian universities, boards of education or others, in reference to establishing a system for scholarships for undergraduates and first-year graduates in:	(a) medicine in all its
branches; (b) physics, chemistry and research;
(c)	mines and natural resources, and scientific research; (d) public health; (e) transportation questions; (f) economics and other national questions, including proposals to grant scholarships to undergraduates and to graduates in medicine of the first and second years after graduation who are internes in bona fide hospitals, and to students and graduates in scientific research?
2.	Will any letters, reports or correspondence in relation to this matter be tabled?


HAMILTON LAWYERS ENGAGED AS GOVERNMENT COUNSEL
Mr. LENNARD:: 1.	What lawyers of the city of Hamilton or the county of Wentworth were engaged by the government during the years 1936 and 1937?
2.	For what specific purpose was each engaged ?
3.	What respective amounts were paid by way of fees, emoluments or expenses to each of these lawyers so engaged?
4.	What amounts, if any, are still outstanding?


COLONEL BELCHER HOSPITAL, CALGARY
Mr. MARSHALL:: 1.	When was the present hospital in Calgary known as the Colonel Belcher Hospital first leased by the dominion government?
2.	What sums have been spent since that date on: (a) rent of building; (b) repairs?
3.	When was the present lease signed; how long has it to run, and what is the yearly consideration?
4.	What facilities are there for treating psychopathic or neurotic cases?
5.	What grounds are available for the patients to obtain proper exercise in the open air?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. WALSH:: For a copy of all letters, papers, telegrams, reports, petitions, recommendations and other documents exchanged between the Minister of Justice or his department, or any agent or official thereof, and other persons, associations or organizations with respect to the arrest and imprisonment of Amedee Lavoie, who was arrested on a bench warrant on January 18, 1938, and is presently in gaol at Perce, Quebec.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to say it is neither customary nor in the public interest to table correspondence of this nature.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.



PRAIRIE FARM REHABILITATION ACT

Mr. HANSELL:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other communications, documents and agreements, exchanged between the federal Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture of Alberta during the years 1937 and 1938, with respect to the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act.



RELIEF IN DROUGHT AREAS

Ernest George Hansell: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other communications, documents and agreements, exchanged between the federal Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture of Alberta during the years 1937 and 1938, with respect to feed relief in drought areas.


Ernest George Hansell: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other communications, documents and agreements, exchanged between the federal Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Agriculture of Alberta during the years 1937 and 1938, with respect to seed grain for drought areas.


Mr. DOUGLAS (Weybum):: For a copy of all letters, telegrams and other documents, exchanged between the federal government of Canada and the provincial government of Saskatchewan, during the years 1934 and 1935, dealing with the offer of the federal
Privilege-Mr. Pelletier

government to accept the whole financial responsibility for relief within certain areas of the province of Saskatchewan.



PRIVILEGE-MR. PELLETIER QUESTION OF INTRODUCTION OF BILL TO REPEAL THE MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917

[Stage Direction]
On the order for notices of motions:
Mr. R. A. PELLETIER (Peace River):: Mr. Speaker, before the notices of motions are proceeded with, I should like to speak to a question of privilege. I desire to introduce a bill in this House of Commons, but for some reason the clerk of the house has refused to accept it or to permit me to introduce it. I raise this question of privilege, not with any resentment but simply because I am anxious that the situation concerning this particular bill should be cleared up once and for all. I am going to ask you, sir, to permit me to present the facts as to whether or not this bill is in order so that you may determine whether I should be permitted to introduce this measure. The bill that I desire to introduce asks for the repeal of the Military Service Act, 1917. A similar measure was introduced in this house in 1922 by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), and at that time the then Speaker, the late Hon. Rodolphe Lemieux, ruled it to be out of order on the ground that it was repealing a statute which was already spent. However, I believe that since that time certain things have happened in this house to reverse the decision then given.
I have in mind chapter 19 of the statutes of 1937 introduced by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning). This was to revive an act which had been declared to be spent. The bill introduced at that time was in exactly the same position as the one I wish to introduce. I hold in my hand volume V of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1927, which contains an index of the statutes of this country and the disposition that has been made of them. On page 27 the Military Service Act, 1917, is shown as being spent and on page 45 the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916, is also shown as being spent. Both those pieces of legislation were in exactly the same position at that particular time. If it was possible for the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill last year to revive and amend the Business Profits War Tax Act, 1916, an act which is listed as spent, then I maintain that the decision given in 1922 by the then Speaker has been reversed.
However, I believe I have still greater authority than that which I have just cited. If we look at the votes and proceedings of the house for 1937 we shall find, at page

109 and continuing, reference to decisions given by the Supreme Court of Canada concerning certain legislation which had been enacted by parliament. Then, if we go further, we find that certain bills to repeal these measures were introduced in this house by the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot). Those bills were introduced to repeal acts which were not on the statute books and which in fact were no longer operative. In the face of what has taken place, I submit that the decision rendered in 1922 by the then Speaker has been changed. If we refer to the remarks of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) when the hon. member for Temiscouata introduced his bills, we find that apparently the minister had no objection at all; he simply said they were purposeless and there would be no objection if the member felt that they should be introduced. I ask you, sir, to consider the bill that I desire to introduce. With the authorities I have quoted I submit it should be possible for me to introduce this bill. Before I sit down let me say again that I do not raise this question of privilege with any feeling of resentment; I desire only to make my position clear. I believe it will be in the interests of the house to have this question settled once again as the authority seems to have been changed since it was settled before. There should be a definite decision as to whether it is possible to introduce a bill to repeal an act which has been spent.


Ernest Lapointe: I do not know anything about the matter referred to by the hon. gentleman except from what I have just heard. The Military Service Act contained a clause to the effect that it would be in force only for the duration of the tihen war which ended in 1918. According to the provisions of the act itself, it expired with the war. An hon. member, I do not know which one, introduced a few years ago a bill of the same kind as the one which my hon. friend wants to introduce, and the then Speaker said that that law was no longer in existence. I cannot remember, but I think I said that there was no use in killing a dead horse. My hon. friend refers to the bills introduced last year by the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot). The acts referred to in those bills were still on the statute books. The decisions of the privy council and of the supreme court, which have been cited very often in this house, were as to the legality or validity of the acts, but they did not have the effect of repealing those acts. The laws were still in existence and the bills introduced by the hon.

Corn-Marketing and Storage
member for Temiscouata were in order. The horn, member will realize the great difference between his bill and those introduced by the hon. member for Temiscouata. As far as I am concerned, I have no objection to his introducing his bill, but I think it would be hard to kill tihe act again because it is dead.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I have no desire to debate this question at this time, but I might remind the minister that when he says that this is simply killing a dead horse, the fact is that when a dead horse has lain around without being buried it may create an awful stench.


Ernest Lapointe: That is why you should not touch it.


René-Antoine Pelletier: It could not be touched if it was buried. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I simply ask you to tell me whether I am to be permitted to introduce this bill.


Walter Edward Foster: If it is necessary to make a statement on the matter, I shall do so later.



SOLDIER SETTLEMENT ACT


René-Antoine Pelletier: That, in the opinion of this house, the government should consider the expediency of amending section one of "An Act to amend the Soldier Settlement Act," being chapter ten of the statutes of 1936, as follows: -
That the words reading "up to and including the thirty-first day of March, 1938" which appear in that section, should be changed to read as follows:	"Up to and including the
thirty-first day of March, 1941."
He said:	Mr. Speaker, this resolution was
placed on the order paper on January 27 last. Since then I have been highly gratified to find that the government has followed my lead, anticipated my motion and brought in a bill to amend the Soldier Settlement Act. I shall, therefore, with the consent of the house, and after saying just a few words, ask permission to withdraw the motion.
May I add that last year I brought in a resolution asking for a commission to investigate certain western problems, and one was appointed; this year I bring in a motion for the enactment of certain legislation, and once more I find the government following my lead and bringing down the legislation. I could not help being much gratified.
The hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) has moved an amendment to the bill brought down by the government. I do not agree fully with the bill as introduced,
but I shall reserve my remarks until the house again goes into committee on the bill. I desire only to say in conclusion that I hope the government will continue to follow the lead I give them in respect of hny further good measures the introduction of which I may suggest.
With the consent of the house, Mr. Speaker, I ask that the motion be withdrawn.
Motion withdrawn.



PROPOSED IMPROVED MARKETING FACILITIES AND PROVISION FOR STORAGE, DRYING, GRADING AND INSPECTION

Mr. PAUL MARTIN (Essex East) moved:: Whereas the creation by parliament of a board of grain commissioners indicates governmental interest in the movement of grain throughout Canada for both domestic and export sale;
And whereas, from time to time parliament has enacted measures dealing with the grain trade, providing for inspection and other necessary services;
And whereas, in the southwestern peninsula of the province of Ontario the bulk of the production of corn in Canada is to be found, this production being an important factor in the income of the farming community and the economy of the area generally;
And whereas, the facilities for the marketing of the said production are inadequate,
Therefore be it resolved,-that, in the opinion of this house, the government
(a)	should consider the necessity for improved marketing facilities;
(b)	should consider the need for providing adequate storage, drying, government grading and inspection facilities in order that the quality of the corn be improved and its production increased.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I rise to-day to speak on the subject of com, which Mr. Ritchie, the first Chancellor of the Exchequer in the government of Lord Balfour, characterized as "in a greater degree a necessity of life than any other article. It is a raw material; it is the food of our people, the feed of our horses and our cattle." I trust that no one will regard me to-day as being local in my outlook. On previous occasions when I had the pleasure of addressing the house, I should like to think that I gave evidence of an interest not purely in sectional problems but in those which concerned the nation as a whole. If to-day I speak on a resolution which deals particularly with the area from which I come, it will not be from a lack of appreciation of our greater problems, but rather because of the realization that this particular problem greatly concerns the farmers of southwestern Ontario, -and indirectly the people living in the towns and cities of that area.
Corn-Marketing and Storage

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner), who unfortunately will not be in his seat to-day, speaking in my constituency last June, said:
That sho\ts that the question of the rehabilitation of agriculture is not altogether confined to the drought areas of western Canada. There is something wrong with the whole economic system upon which agriculture rests.
In respect of southwestern Ontario, commenting upon this statement of the Minister of Agriculture, I suggest that the reasons for this condition are four: First, faults in the marketing system; second, a very great lack of grain-conditioning equipment; third, a total lack of governmental inspection and grading of grain; fourth, a complete inadequacy of storage facilities which would bring about what I might call a "market place" for the grain in this area.
This is not the occasion to go into the history of this particular problem. I should like to begin with the imposing of the tariff by the government of the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Bennett) in 1931, at the instance of the corn growers on whose behalf I am speaking. That tariff sought to protect the corn growers of western Ontario and other parts of Canada against the great corn-growing area of the United States and the Argentine. However, when the tariff was imposed, corn came in free from the British Empire; in effect, from South Africa, under the British preference. The result of the tariff, while I do not deny its great value, was to substitute for the Argentine and the United States, as competitors against our com producers, the Union of South Africa. The great difficulty of the latter competition was that a situation existed; which did not exist with the other two competitors, because our farmers had then to compete not only against a properly graded and inspected commodity, but more particularly against a corn grower who was subsidized to the extent first of nine cents, and later twelve cents, a bushel in respect of all corn exported from South Africa. In addition, the corn coming in from South Africa -and this was the case not only when the right hon. gentleman opposite was Prime Minister but also during the present administration-was conveyed to Canada in the ships of the Elder Dempster line, which received and continues to receive a subsidy at the hands of the government of this country. So on these two grounds alone the com growers on whose behalf I am speaking to-day were doubly prejudiced.
While this problem is sectional and partly local, it has not, in my judgment, been effectively brought to the attention of parliament, certainly not of this parliament to my

knowledge. Consequently I am submitting this motion to-day. But that does not mean to say that the departments of government, Agriculture and Trade and Commerce, have not been alive to the problem. Three surveys have been made, in 1932, 1935 and during last year, and certainly two of them-only two have been made public-indicate the strength of what I am trying to say to-day. I ask the government, and particularly the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler) on his own behalf and in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture, to realize the consistency between what I have to say now and what these reports indicate. The great anomaly is this, that in a country as fertile as Canada so far as the growing of com is concerned, domestic production is below domestic consumption, and we have to import from other areas as far as 6,000 miles away a product which can be grown in this country satisfactorily and in adequate quantities. The reason is, not better sales methods on the part of South Africa or the Argentine, but that in Canada we suffer from a total lack of facilities whereby there could be a definitely desired relation between the producer and the consumer trades generally.


An hon. MEMBER:: And cheaper freight rates.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Corn-Marketing and Storage

sumption 16.581,000 bushels. The table is as
follows: Year	Production (in thousands of bushels)	Importa- tion	Con- sumption1930.. ..	.. 5,149	11.432	16.5811931.. ..	.. 5.434	9,664	15,0981932.. ..	.. 5,057	7,214	12,2711933.. ..	.. 5,054	5,508	10,5621934.. ..	. . 6,798	8.327	15,1251935.. ..	. . 7.765	8,525	16,290
Surely it is evident from the facts I have presented that we can grow corn in satisfactory quantities and of satisfactory quality. But we are importing corn from abroad, and in consequence the farmers who grow the same kind of corn are losing one of their best cash crops from which, as I shall show, they could derive a handsome revenue. The above table indicates that from 1930 there has been a definite improvement in the production of corn in western Ontario, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the almost complete arrest of the corn-borer with its terrible infestation. The great question that faces us is: Can corn production in western Ontario be increased to a point where it would satisfy Canada's complete consumption requirements? The answer is definitely yes.
If we take the wider field of the six counties which were devoting 137,448 acres to corn out of a total acreage of cleared land of 2,753,156 acres, it would be a simple matter to increase the corn acreage by a mere 175,000 acres; it would mean simply a return to the corn acreage of 1895 to 1914 of 326,087 acres.
Anyone who will glance at the income levels of the rural area from which I come will find that our farmers are devoting a good portion of their cleared land to the production of commodities which do not yield as remunerative returns as do some others. One of the most distinguisl^d corn growers and one of the leading farmers of my constituency, Mr. William Wallace of Woodslee, Ontario, president of the Ontario Corn Growers' Association, wrote recently:
Our land is too valuable for the profitable production of oats and barley beyond what we need for feed and seed. The farmers in the corn belt of the United States found this out long ago. and while in the years of exceptional yield like two years ago, an oat crop will pay dividends, the average crop usually cannot be sold at a profit.
Commenting on that statement I call the attention of the house to a table which appeared in a recent number of the Ontario Department of Agriculture's statistics branch, entitled Production and Value of Principal Farm Crops, 1936, in the western Ontario area. That table shows that fall wheat brought $26.71 per acre; oats, $13.68; barley, $21.60; peas, $18.91; beans, $26.66; com,

$25.16. Oats is in point of financial return one of the lowest of these commodities, one in which southwestern Ontario competes against western Canada. We are actually devoting 24,191 more acres to oats than to corn, and the six counties, comprising the corn belt, are devoting 249,195 acres more to oats than to corn.


Mr. BENNETT:: It is because of the demand from the Quaker Oats and other companies.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Partly. But another
reason is that we have not the facilities to deal with our own com so as to reach a much wider market. I am glad the right hon. gentleman has interjected. He is aware, I have no doubt, that at the present time corn for starch and cereal purposes comes into Canada free. We have two large starch companies in Ontario, one at Cardinal, and one at Port Credit. I have it on their own authority that they consume 2,500,000 bushels a year. This corn comes into Canada from the United States. They will not buy the corn of western Ontario because of its moisture content, the absence of grading and government inspection, and the fact that the com does not reach them in a proper state and in sufficient bulk and readily enough to make it a secure market. Let me quote the president of one of these companies in this respect. He says:
We have found it quite impossible to buy corn in sufficient quantity for our requirements from all the different dealers and farmers who have it for sale, but who will only let us have a car or two at a time. You will naturally understand that this is not a dependable source of supply for us, considering the fact that we use five to six cars per day- there is no chance of our getting any Canadian corn by water as there is apparently no place where it can be loaded.
Next I would quote with reference to the Port Credit company, from a bulletin issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce in 1932:
This firm uses over 1,000,000 bushels of white corn annually, and cannot see why their present sources of 1 supply, which are bought at Chicago, should not be obtained in the corn belt of western Ontario. Have purchased Canadian grain from Essex and Kent when they could get it, but have given up hope of effecting satisfactory arrangements for regular shipments, pending adequate handling facilities in the Canadian producing zones.
These two statements could be added to by buyers throughout the country. They indicate not an unwillingness to buy the Canadian commodity but a natural reluctance to buy a product which they feel they cannot obtain in proper condition and with respect to which they cannot obtain a guarantee, as is the

Corn-Marketing and Storage
case in South Africa, on the strength of a government certificate of inspection. Moreover, the corn is not readily available in bulk.
Another contention is that this corn should be used for feed. It is argued that it should go into hog production. What has happened in the Argentine is true in Canada, and as this is an important point I shall dwell on it for a few moments. Speaking of my own county, Essex, in 1908 we had in live stock:
Swine. Cattle. Sheep. Horses
124,615
54,212
19,742
22,325
In other words, a total of 220,894 in terms of live stock. The trend in our area was steady until	1917. It	dropped	in	1918 to92,414 and	remained under	100,000	for five
years. In 1926 there was a drop to 95,026. This is what I would impress upon the minister in case he should labour this argument. While, formerly, 80 per cent or more of the crop in Essex county-and this would apply generally to western Ontario-was fed locally, this has now been reduced to from 50 to 60 per cent. Ever since 1926 there has been a steady decline until 1936, when the live stock figures for Essex county were:
Swine	 37,674
Cattle	 29,298
Sheep	 11,606
Horses	 14,588
Total	 93,166
What deduction does one draw from this? It is the obvious one that farmers are inclined to grow cereal crops and sell for cash rather than to turn some of their land into pasture and raise grain on the rest of the land to be used as feed as was done thirty years ago. The grain production of western Ontario finds a home market in Canada. Those interested in live stock and its production sell in a highly competitive export market. Is it therefore any wonder that there should be this evidence of a decrease? And the same is true of the Argentine and other great corn-growing countries. To prove this I quote Mr. J. A. Strong, Canadian Trade Commissioner, Buenos Aires, in The Commercial Intelligence Journal of the Canadian Department of Trade and Commerce of February 6, 1937:
Whereas Argentina beef exports are now less than fifty per cent of the 1927 level, the acreage sown to all cereal crops was increased by 10-01 million acres between 1926 and 1927 and 1934 and 1935. The acreage in grain was increased steadily over this period, despite the general downward trend of wheat and corn prices. This does not indicate that cattle prices necessarily decline relatively more than grain prices, but rather that the large landowners, although they could not make a profit in producing beef were always able to find tenant farmers ready to cultivate their land.
So I do not think any hon. member would seriously advance the old argument that in the case of this fertile area we should exclusively feed corn to hogs. I am frank to admit that while the soil of Essex county and western Ontario generally is capable of this high quality production, the fault lies at home. Corn coming here from South Africa has a moisture content of twelve per cent, due largely to climatic conditions, together with adequate drying, grading, marketing and storage facilities which they have in that country. In Ontario, November is generally the period for husking corn. At this time the moisture content runs between twenty and twenty-five per cent. This is, of course, most unsatisfactory. It has run in wet periods as high as thirty per cent. Our moisture content is pretty much the same as that of the United States; but in the case of the latter, the great com belt in the midwestern area of the United States has its drying and grading facilities by which this disadvantage is obviated.
There are two ways of drying corn. Here again we have the traditional argument that the natural way is the best way, putting it in cribs. The alternative is artificial drying. The artificial drying of corn may be done within an hour or an hour and a half. The natural drying of corn in the area of which I am speaking takes six or eight months. The result is that naturally dried corn in Canada cannot get the benefit of rising prices, and is unable to take advantage of credit facilities which in the case of South Africa assure a steady flow of com to market, permitting the farmer to take advantage of favourable prices.
I contend that the Canada Grain Act is not being applied. Our grain act requires that No. 1 and No. 2 com shall contain not more than sixteen per cent moisture, No. 3 corn a maximum of nineteen per cent. Yet com in Essex county-I speak of Essex because I know it best-reaches market after husking with from twenty to twenty-five per cent or, in some instances, as high as thirty per cent of moisture. The provisions of the grain act in this particular are not being complied with.
As South Africa is our main competitor, I think I should put on record the comparative chemical contents of the com produced there and in Ontario:
Moisture Starch.. Oil.. .. Protein. .
Ontario South Africa Per cent Per cent 17-05	13-00
52-29	55-30
3-85	4-13
9-62	8-70
This shows that the quality of corn from both countries is relatively equal.
Com-Marketing and Storage

Dr. Grisdale, former Deputy Minister of Agriculture, reporting in 1935, said of western Ontario corn:
Corn thus husked not in shape to sell or ship or store shows eighteen to twenty-two and twenty-three per cent moisture. To ship or store safely it should not have a moisture content of over thirteen or fourteen per cent.
It seems to me that having in mind the provisions of the grain act there can be no justification for not applying them to Ontario as well as to western Canada. If that were done, corn growers in Western Ontario as well as farmers generally would find themselves enjoying advantages now denied them. With the permission of the house I wish to place on record a statement showing a comparison of prices of South African and Ontario corn.


Walter Edward Foster: It is not permissible to hand such statements to Hansard unless the hon. member reads them. It is only by the courtesy of the house that the Minister of Finance has been allowed to do so in making his budget speech.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I am coming to that. This table shows a comparison of prices of Ontario corn with corn from the Argentine and from South Africa, during the years 1934, 1935, 1936 and 1937. Ontario corn sold at a discount of about twenty cents a bushel under South African or Argentine corn when, in the case of the latter country, the tariff was suspended.


Mr. REID:: At what point?


Paul Joseph James Martin: At any point. I am taking the average-maritime provinces, Ontario, or even as far as British Columbia. The average discount is about twenty cents. Why? Because of the lack of those facilities which would send our corn to market dried, graded and properly inspected by the Department of Trade and Commerce.


Mr. MacNICOL:: May I ask how the hon. member proposes that the corn shall be dried?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I intend to come to that. These facilities the Argentine and South Africa have. The comparison of prices reveals that during the late summer and early fall Ontario com commands a relatively high price, because buyers then know that the corn of the previous year, having been naturally dried, is available in the condition in which corn from South Africa would be immediately after husking, because of the drying process which it undergoes there. Apart from moisture content, apart from lack of government

grading, Ontario corn would then be seen to be equal in every respect to the corn from other countries.
Now I come to the kernel of what I have stated. These are the facts. What does South Africa do? What has the Argentine done to process properly and facilitate the marketing of the com grown by its farmers? In the case of South Africa, until last year, over a five year period $4,075,000 was paid in subsidies by the government of the Union of South Africa to the com growers of that country in respect of corn exports to other countries. In the case of Canada, as a result of the trade agreement of August 30, 1932, the subsidy was not to apply to shipments to Canada. Actually-if one had time one could prove-that the consumer in Canada paid the subsidy, which, under the treaty, was not to be extended to the South African com grower.
Here I quote from the year book of the Union of South Africa for 1937, summarizing what is done in that country:
A well appointed system of grain inspection and testing at shipping points has been established, and every endeavour is made to maintain a regular and cheap overseas service for the export trade of the country. South African maize

Or, as we call it, corn-

is marketed overseas on a "Government Certificate Final" basis. These certificates are accepted by the Overseas Corn Trade Associations. All South African maize and maize products are graded at the ports or at inland centres by government graders.
That is South Africa, where there is government grading and government inspection. A test is made of the moisture content of the corn. The corn is not allowed to be sold in certain channels unless it satisfies the test. Obviously, having in mind the moisture content of western Ontario corn, and having in mind the severity of these requirements, the Canadian com producer cannot possibly compete, to a measure of satisfaction, with this imported corn.
In the case of the Argentine the measure of control is even more startling. It is curious to note that the measure of control there is based upon a grain act, which is the exact model of our own grain act. In other words, a grain act, based upon our own act, has been adopted in the Argentine, and its provisions, identical with ours, are actually put into effect -government inspection, government grading, adequate storage facilities and the like. But these are denied us.
May I now take a moment to analyze our grain act. I would first call the minister's

Corn-Marketing and Storage
attention to section 9 of the act which provides:
The board and the chief commissioner shall have jurisdiction, upon or without complaint made, to inquire into any matter relating to
(a)	The grading of any grain;
(b)	The weighing of any grain;
(f) The deterioration of any grain during storage or treatment.
Then section 12 provides:
The board may make regulations or orders not inconsistent with this act

To bring about:
(d) establishing inspection districts and fixing the boundaries thereof from time to time;
Again, farther down in the section, the board shall have power:
(r) In particular, fixing or approving the maximum charges to be made for the discharge of grain into and out of elevators, and for the insurance against fire, storage, cleaning, treatment and handling of grain while in any elevator.
Then, sub section (t):
(t) Governing the procedure to be followed at elevators in respect to the receipt and discharge of grain and the handling, treatment and shipping thereof while in such elevator.
Then, in part of section 25 the board is given power to appoint an eastern committee, and the section goes on to say:

which committee shall have jurisdiction to select and settle the standard samples to be used in the current crop year in connection with the grading of eastern grain,-
I might add-as seems best in the national interest. I submit that in the national interest, and certainly in the interests of western Ontario-and that is not contrary to the national interest-if nothing else is done, these sections in the grain act should be applied to improve marketing facilities, grading facilities, inspection facilities, weighing facilities and storage facilities of the farmers in my area, so that they might be able satisfactorily to compete with the farmers of other countries.


Mr. EULER:: What does the hon. member mean by storage facilities?


Walter Edward Foster: The hon. member has
exhausted his time for speaking.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Paul Joseph James Martin: I should like to make one or two further observations, if the house will permit me. I mean that there should be an opportunity provided-and it will be up to the Department of Agriculture to decide- whereby any one who wants corn in bulk, based upon government certificates, will be able to get it. At this stage I do not propose to make any further proposals, except to state
that, having in mind the situation in South Africa and in the Argentine, it is inconceivable that there should not be a "market place" which would obviate the present inadequacy of storage facilities.
I have stressed the need for government grading and government inspection of corn. I do not think I am asking too much. Surely the western farmers, who have those privileges in respect of wheat, would not deny them to eastern farmers. In answer again to what the minister has just asked may I explain, as definitely as I can, what I have in mind. It should be possible to assemble stocks of corn in quantities. It should be possible to have records of these stocks, so that any purchaser in any part of Canada would have some knowledge of the situation and some assurance that he could get corn in large quantities, backed by certificates, which would give the authority and security accorded in other countries and, as someone has suggested, would assure a continuity of delivery.


John Ritchie MacNicol: How would you dry it?


Paul Joseph James Martin: I would dry it with artificial driers, working in harmony with the drying facilities now in existence and these, in turn, working in harmony with the country elevators. The country elevators in my district are performing a great service, and they would be partners in the general scheme I have outlined.
Before resuming my seat may I summarize what I have said: I do not think it is my job to seek out under whose jurisdiction this problem may come. I suspect a good deal of it is a matter for the Department of Agriculture, and I suggest that much of it should be borne by the Department of Trade and Commerce.
With regard to the Department of Agriculture, I suggest its mandate is this:
1.	In essence there are two types of com, white corn and yellow com, each having several varieties. The Department of Agriculture should provide the direction necessary to supply farmers with seed of those varieties best suited to the soil and climatic conditions of southwestern Ontario.
2.	Starch and cereal manufacture require the white type of corn. Consequently the Department of Agriculture should make a census of the requirements of these.
3.	The yellow type of corn is used in the feeding and other trades, the distinction in colour requirements being extremely precise. The Department of Agriculture should
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give direction in this particular. This is already being done in part by the efficient seed branch of the federal Department of Agriculture, together with the experimental farm at Harrow, in Essex county.
4.	The quality of the Ontario farm crop should be approached, first through the introduction of an early maturing variety suited to the requirements of the manufacturers. Again this is a matter for the Department of Agriculture.
I do not wish to take advantage of the privilege extended to me of speaking too much beyond the limited period, but there is one matter I should like to bring to the attention of the house. In this connection I refer to the Commercial Intelligence Journal of November 23, 1935, to reveal what the Department of Agriculture in the Argentine has done in respect of these four items:
Control over the growing of grain is further strengthened by forbidding farmers of institutions producing seed of any new variety of grain without the approval of the ministry of agriculture. Producers wishing to introduce new varieties will be required to submit samples for approval and, if accepted, a certificate will be issued recognizing the right to deal in the seed; this certificate will give details regarding the grain and the zones most suited for its development. New varieties will only be authorized, however, when they represent some new advance over those already produced in the country, and they will be grown under the control of the ministry of agriculture.
I am not an expert on agricultural matters, but am merely a member of parliament speaking on behalf of the people who have discussed this subject for a number of years and, seemingly, are almost discouraged, believing that they will not get any government in the country to take an interest in their problem or to deal with it as seriously as they wish. I am complaining not only about the present government, but about successive governments.
5.	Provision should be made for greater adequacy of drying and storage immediately after husking, to enable the farmer to ensure a steadier flow of corn to market in order to take advantage of favourable price opportunities and to ensure the satisfactory warehousing of com by purchasers and consumers, this in addition to already existing facilities.
6.	There should be adequate government grading and inspection facilities so that consumer confidence may be established in Ontario corn, resulting in better prices for producers.
7.	There should be government weighing facilities thereby eliminating disputes regard-

ing weights. I wish I had the time to go into this matter in detail. The farmer has never had an opportunity of knowing with any degree of accuracy whether the statement on his record of weight, when he sells, is correct.
8.	We should also consider the possibility of bringing about cheaper freight rates, having in mind the opportunities of water transportation and the like at the disposal of those living in western Ontario.
My final requests are based on a report prepared before the advent of this government. This report was authorized by the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) when he was Minister of Trade and Commerce. A summary of the report is as follows:
(a)	The six counties are an excellent grain producing zone and could apply their acreages much more profitably.
(b)	The greatest menace, namely, the corn borer, is definitely under control.
(c)	Freight rates by rail from points in these counties to the large consuming markets are too high to permit competition with imported grain.
(d)	The drying facilities are entirely incompatible with the amount of grain to be treated.
(e)	The assembly of the widely distributed grain at a central point is indispensable to the proper marketing.
(f)	The producers will receive a higher price only when their grain is properly conditioned and graded.
These are important requests made on behalf of the people, not only in one county but in six.
May I say in conclusion. I represent a constituency that grows perhaps more corn than any other area in Canada. Its population is made up of people representing the twin cultures of this country, French and English speaking. The French have a tradition that goes back before the days of confederation, to the days of the formation of this area as a British colony. They are a happy and contented people, but they are a struggling people who demand attention. They are worthy of the concern which I have shown on their behalf in making this plea. The same is true also of their English speaking neighbours. There are others in my constituency who speak neither French nor English but the tongue of central European countries and other parts of the world. In the rural as well as the urban areas of my constituency are men and women who are doing their best to improve their economic level. I am convinced that if this resolution could be regarded in the spirit in which it is offered, the people on whose behalf I am speaking will have everlasting gratitude toward the government of this country.

Com-Marketing and Storage


Mr. E. E. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: Mr. Speaker, I find myself to a certain degree in accord with the resolution, and I desire to say a word or two in support of it.
The hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) has presented a splendid case for the corn producers in the six counties in the province of Ontario which he has named. He has set out the difficulties under which they are labouring with respect to grading, storing, drying and marketing. If the hon. member had been speaking from about the seat now occupied by the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Glen), we might have thought that the former member for Essex South, Mr. Eccles Gott, had been returned to the house. I can remember the former member presenting on many occasions the case for the com growers for that part of Ontario in about the same tone of voice. Many times we heard him presenting their case and advocating better facilities for the grading and storing of corn. I am surprised that the member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) did not go as far as the former member and advocate the building of an elevator at Windsor.
The former member also suggested and supported the duty that was placed on corn in 1931. The production of com is fast becoming an important branch of agriculture, and certainly the facilities for grading, storing and marketing should be improved. The hon. member has said that the present lack of these facilities affects the six counties to which he has referred. The area in which com can be produced in Canada is gradually moving farther north. I shall not go into the production figures-the hon. member has given them in detail-other than to say that the annual production of corn is something over
10,000,000 bushels.
I would remind hon. members that com has been produced and successfully brought to maturity in each of the three prairie provinces. At Macgregor, Manitoba, at Indian Head, Saskatchewan-both at the experimental farm and in the surrounding country-and at Swift Current, corn has been successfully grown and matured. Com produced and brought to maturity at Indian Head was in the prize list at the international grain show held in Chicago a few years ago. It was commented upon by the judges as being a splendid sample. I could put on record some of my own experiences in growing com, but I do not think they would serve any useful purpose.
There is a considerable market for corn in British Columbia, which imports from 2,500,000 to 3,000,000 bushels for purposes of dairy stock and poultry feeding, and we should endeavour to get the British Columbia market.
The hon. member says that we certainly should have the Ontario market. He referred to the fact that in 1931 a duty was imposed on corn from the United States and the Argentine. That duty was imposed, partly because certain members from Ontario presented an argument to the government similar to that presented to-day by the hon. member, but more particularly because the then member for Souris, Mr. Errick Willis, and myself, urged this move upon the government. We took this action in an effort to get the British Columbia market for coarse grains. We wanted the grains grown on the prairies to replace corn coming in from the United States and other countries. That was the real reason why the duty was imposed.
I have a suggestion to make to hon. members, one that I think is worthy of consideration. The bill to amend the Canada Grain Act is to come before the agriculture committee within the next day or two. No doubt representatives of the board of grain commissioners will sit in with the committee, and I suggest that the subject matter of this resolution be presented to the committee

possibly the hon. member for Essex East himself would appear before the committee and present the ease-when we have the commissioners present. I think if the hon. member would take it up with the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler) that could easily be arranged. The agriculture committee is I believe the proper place to discuss this question. While many members of the house come from parts of the dominion that are not very much interested in corn, undoubtedly the agriculture committee would be interested, and I think we should avail ourselves of the presence of the representatives of the board.


William Daum Euler: The chairman of the board of grain commissioners will be here in connection with a small amendment that is to be made to the grain act, but later on it is proposed to have a complete revision of the act-


Richard Bedford Bennett: This year?


William Daum Euler: I hope so, and this matter
might be more appropriately taken up at that time.


Ernest Edward Perley: I thank the minister. But I would suggest that at least it be mentioned to the chairman of the board when he is here, and possibly arrangements could be made for a hearing.


William Daum Euler: I have no particular objection.
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Ernest Edward Perley: In conclusion I would suggest that when the production of corn in Canada becomes such that it will be sufficient at least to take care of the domestic market, a duty should be imposed that would secure that market to the Canadian producers. I have pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in supporting the motion, and I trust that my suggestion may also be considered.
Mr. G. W. McDonald (Souris): Mr. Speaker, I wish to concur in the resolution introduced by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin). True it deals altogether with corn, but it mentions marketing facilities, and it is along that line that I wish more particularly to speak.
It is quite true, as was stated by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) that we can grow corn in western Canada. We have been growing corn there for some time, and I am pleased to say that the province of Manitoba has encouraged the production of corn. There are boys' and girls' corn clubs all over the country, and in the adjoining constituency of Lisgar they are producing com by the carload. They have a drier, and one man there is making considerable money out of it. He is able to produce seed com the equal of that imported from the United States. I believe that as time goes on we shall grow more and more corn. I do not believe any wheat-growing country long continues to grow wheat alone. That has been our experience in Canada. I remember when we grew a lot of spring wheat in Ontario, but the rust took it and we had to turn to fall wheat, and that was none too favourable. I do not think the Ontario farmer is trusting very much to-day to wheat to make the bulk of his income. We in the west, I am happy to say, are able to do that, but the time may come when we shall not be able to produce such large quantities of wheat, and we are therefore giving considerable attention to the growing of corn.
We have efficient and well organized grain inspection system and grain weighing departments in the west, as was stated by the mover of the resolution. They are conducted by the government. It is quite true that all the farmers are not satisfied all the time, but I cannot see how the inspectors and weighers, who do not know whose grain they are weighing or grading, can make many mistakes. The odd mistake may be made, but on the whole I think the system is highly efficient.
I am not too sure about the marketing end of the system. I believe it is efficient, but it is conducted on the principle of the auction,
[Mr. Euler.l
and auction sales we know sometimes are not too favourable to the man who has goods to sell.
I heard the hon. member for Qu'Appelle say the other day that this government had put on a fire sale of wheat. I am not satisfied with that statement. It is a statement that is quite easy to make; but, looking back, would he have made it three years ago? Could he have said it with the same certainty of getting as many farmers to believe it, if we had had bounteous crops in the meantime? I should like to remind him that day after day during the years 1932 and 1933, where the freight rate on grain was 25 cents per hundred, wheat was selling on the streets in all the western towns for 20 cents, oats for 5 cents, and barley for 7 or 8 cents. Those I claim were the fire sales. Never again-I do not care what government is in power-should we let prices slip to such low levels, away below the cost of production.
But as I said, it is the marketing that I wish particularly to discuss. I know that very many favourable things can be said of the highly organized grain trade that we have in this country, but the day will never come when the makers of farm implements or other goods in this country will allow their goods to be sold on a commission basis. They will never take any such chances, and how can the farmer take such chances? He cannot do it unless he is prepared to go out of business. There is no good reason why a commodity as staple as wheat or any other of our farm products should be allowed to fluctuate so widely in price. Wheat has been known to fluctuate as much as twenty cents a day; I have seen that myself, and nobody can say that that is a good system.
I have always had the suspicion, Mr. Speaker, that the pool was allowed to go on the rocks because those who had their money behind it did not want it to succeed. I was never very enthusiastic about the pool, but I know the farmer has just as much right as anybody else to sell his goods the way he wants to sell them. The bankers knew how the pool should have protected themselves. The banks have financed the grain movements of this country for years and years, and they knew how it could be financed on a safe basis. But the fact remains that the pools were allowed to buy futures when they were carrying the actual grain. What they should have been doing then, when they were carrying the actual grain, was selling wheat, but the men who encouraged the contrary policy knew well. I believe, that some day the pool would drift on the rocks, and that is what happened.

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I made a strong statement against the banks the other day when speaking on the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, and that is one of the things I had in mind. The banks are willing to go into all kinds of business when there is a chance to make big money. When credit is easy they encourage people to borrow, but when a depression is on they take to cover mighty quickly. When they got into trouble with the pools I say that the governments of this country had no more right to go to the aid of the banks in that particular deal than it would have to come to my aid if I were in business and got into trouble. But how easily the bankers can get the ear of the government! I am pleased to say it was not this government, or any federal government; it was the provincial governments. If I 'had happened to be a member of the legislature at that time, the chances are I should have voted for what was done just like all the rest. The fact remains that the big interests, the bankers, know how to protect themselves, how to saddle the loss on the people and protect their own money.
I quite understand that in this country corn has not quite reached the place of importance occupied by wheat and other hard grains, but I have no doubt that when it becomes as large a crop as it is bound to be in the future, adequate storage and drying facilities will be provided, as well as a system of government marketing, weighing and grading, so that the farmer will have no reason to complain that he is not getting a square deal.
I notice that this resolution calls upon the government to help both the export and the domestic business. We are all much interested in the export end, but the domestic should be encouraged too. I contend that the incidence of our freight rates is entirely unfavourable to the encouragement of the domestic exchange of grain. I cannot understand why that is so. We have a board of railway commissioners who, we claim, are experts. Well, they do some funny things. Consider the trouble that the railroads are having and the great burdens they impose upon this country, and then look at the bus and truck competition. I have noticed that in a part of the country where we have had depression and drought most of the time for the last eight years there is considerable bus and truck competition; they operate routes which parallel the railroads, they buy new equipment, they wear it out and then buy better equipment and they seem to be busier and busier all the time. What is the trouble with the railroads? We live on a branch line, and I do not think they are running as good a train as they ran
twenty years ago; yet along that same line we have an up-to-date bus service. All this has been accomplished by the bus lines in the depression years, and I do not believe they are foolish enough to sink their money in a losing game. The railroads stay with the old methods. I cannot understand where the trouble lies. I know they have the brains. But for some reason or other there is a suspicion among a lot of people that the men in control realize that the railroads are no longer a paying proposition and they want to unload them on to the government. I do not know whether that is true, but I do know that truck companies and bus companies are making some progress, even in these days.
The domestic sale of grain from British Columbia to the maritime provinces should be encouraged, and the way to encourage it is to reduce freight rates and put them more on an export basis. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) referred to the tariff. Tariffs are funny things, and I am not going to mix up the tariff with the discussion of this resolution; indeed it has not much to do with it. But I am reliably informed that in the last five years two cargoes of com passed each other in the St. Lawrence river, one bound from South Africa to Canada, the other from a port on the great lakes in the United States to a port in Europe. Here are two countries living side by side, and this is what happens. The hon. member for Qu'Appelle takes great credit for the imposition of a duty on corn when we had a considerable quantity of barley in this country. I am not going to blame him too much. But is it reasonable that we who are living alongside the United States should have to ship in com from South Africa? Surely that illustrates some of the absurdities of the tariff, I could continue along that line, but I believe we do not wish to intermix the tariff too much with an important subject such as corn or grain.
I am quite satisfied to support the motion, and I know it will receive consideration by the government. Further, the government will do all -it can, I am sure, to assist the marketing of our products. It is very important that some consideration should be given to that matter, and for that reason among others I should like to see a marketing board established. I do not believe that the farmers of this country are able to get the information which will enable them to sell their goods to the best advantage. I know the department is issuing advice along that line, but more should be done to dispose of wheat and cattle and other agricultural products. I am talking from the farmer's standpoint, because the
Corn-Marketing and Storage

constituency I represent is purely agricultural; but I want to make it clear that in my opinion there is not a member of this house who is in any way opposed to the manufacturing interests of this country. We do not care where we buy the goods so long as we get them at the right price. I do not think we should have the least enmity against Canadian manufacturers; it would be better for us if they were all prosperous. The point I wish to make is that at present the farmer is not, in my opinion, in a position to get the right information by virtue of which he can intelligently dispose of his goods-that is, to get the best market price for them. For that reason I favour a marketing board and I hope that the government will soon bring down a measure for that purpose.


Mr. H. W. WINKLER (Lisgar):: That the present resolution should be introduced by the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin), one of the representatives of the great corn growing district of southwestern Ontario, is quite right and proper. Thirty or forty years ago every school boy in Canada knew that Essex and Kent counties were noted for their corn. I am sure that the same thing holds true to-day. The figures that I have obtained from the department of agriculture as to acreage in the year 1934 will serve as an illustration of this. The county of Essex had planted in that year 53,000 acres, and the county of Kent 40,000 acres, making a total of 93,000 acres, or about 65 per cent of the total acreage devoted to com in Ontario. That, compared to the Manitoba acreage of
76,000,	shows a considerably larger figure for Ontario, but the Manitoba figures are an indication of the strides which corn-growing has made in that province during recent years. It is since 1931 that the increase in Manitoba has been most apparent, the increase being from 7,000 to 76,000 acres.
The constituency of Lisgar, which I have the honour to represent, is very favourably located geographically for corn growing; I believe it grows more corn than any other constituency in Manitoba. That is by the way; but because the production in a certain section of my constituency has a special bearing on the resolution before the house I should like to discuss the resolution in relation to two small areas known as the rural municipalities of Rhineland and Stanley. These comprise only nineteen townships, but to-day they are the Essex and the Kent of Manitoba. This year these two municipalities ran into severe difficulties, and because of those difficulties corn marketing will be in chaos until regulations concerning corn grow-
ing, similar to those existing in the grain trade in many countries, are brought into being.
I wish to make a brief comparison of the acreage of this small section and the rest of Manitoba. The Department of Agriculture estimates that the Manitoba bushelage in 1937 was 400,000. The number of acres sown was 11,000. The Department of Agriculture estimates that these two small municipalities to which I have special reference produced
100.000	bushels in 1937 on 2,800 acres, or approximately one-quarter of the bushelage of Manitoba's production from nineteen townships. The department this year estimates the seed requirements for Manitoba for next year's crop at approximately 20,000 bushels. These two small municipalities have saved
7.000	bushels and will require 5,000 for their own seeding purposes, which leaves a surplus of 2,000, which will go towards the provincial requirements of 15,000, still to be supplied.
In order to show the bearing that marketing conditions have, in these two small municipalities, on the resolution now before the house and the bearing which they are likely to have to a greater degree in coming years, I should like to give a very brief sketch of the area. In doing so I shall touch to some extent on the historical side.
This district was settled in 1875 by emigrants from Ontario and also by German-Dutch people known as the Mennonites, who came direct from Russia. These frugal, industrious people settled on the prairie sections while the Ontario settlers went to the hilly and treed sections of the district. The Mennonites settled on the prairies because they were accustomed to prairies in the old land. As a result of their industry and thrift they accumulated a great deal of wealth, and because they had large families it was necessary for them periodically to migrate in large numbers to other parts. As a result of this migration we had districts like Rosthern and Swift Current in Saskatchewan springing up. The original community of Mennonites expanded considerably and as a result of their industry they began to acquire much of the land occupied by the other settlers originally from Ontario. This situation existed until the early 1920's, but in the agricultural slump that occurred at that time there was a very severe setback to the Mennonite community. They had bought heavily of land and had set up their children, even going into debt themselves. The two church trust companies, which had been models of thrift for the whole dominion, had failed; the backbone of the colony having been broken, conditions became so acute that in most cases children were

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thrown back upon their parents. The result was that a congested condition began to develop. To aggravate the situation, mechanized farming had become increasingly profitable for large holdings, and those who had money took advantage of the slump to increase their holdings. They bought additional holdings with the result that the land requirements of the district were curtailed. On top of it all, we have had drought conditions for six years, reducing a large part of the area to comparative misery.
The bright spot in the picture appeared when the dominion experimental farm system developed an early maturing selection of Northwestern Dent com. The district is too remote from any city to serve marketgardening purposes, and consequently the inhabitants, if they wish to remain there, must engage in some form of agriculture. The fact that this new variety of early-maturing com was developed made it possible for the small acreage unit farm to begin operations. Furthermore, another helpful discovery in the agricultural field was that corn could be planted much earlier than had been theretofore supposed. While corn nearing maturity will not stand frost the young plant will stand, if necessary, freezing back several times. Theretofore a favourable climatic condition had permitted some com to be matured in this district, but now the scheme could be embarked upon as a commercial operation. In other words, employment in agriculture had been found for the surplus population, thanks to the reasons mentioned; 45,000 bushels in 1934 became 50,000 bushels in 1935, and the bushelage for 1937 was estimated at 100.000. There is a great demand for the seed of this hardy Manitoba-grown com. But not all com is fit for seed. Much has to be sold for feed, and what before that time had presented no problem, became a real one. One of our progressive grain companies instructed its buyers at two points to buy com on the cob. It is being stored in improvised bins. This company bought about 50,000 bushels and there remains about another
50,000,	part of which was fed during the past winter. But the drought of recent years has so affected the ground water level of the district that most farmers are limited to the stock they can keep by the water their wells will supply.
There is no reason why, with improved marketing facilities such as are enjoyed by wheat and other grains, the amount of com grown in this area should not be multiplied several times. The present acreage sown to corn and oats is slightly in excess of one-half of one per cent of the total, which, of course, is a very poor comparison with the present
acreage in Essex and Kent. The market will absorb some com readily, but our experience has been that when there is great production a good deal of confusion results. From the standpoint of the producer it appears that there will be a great improvement if marketing facilities are provided, and the same would apply to the consumer. I believe that possibly the benefit would be equally great. The inferior material on the market has, as in the case of grain in the past years, penalized both consumer and producer.
With the part of the resolution dealing with marketing facilities I am in complete accord. I should like to quote an abbreviated portion of the report of Doctor J. H. Gris-dale in 1935, on the corn situation. He said:
The department has made two investigations within the last two years and states that one difficulty in marketing corn produced in Canada in competition with corn of other origin is inadequate official grades and inspection.
That recommendation is in harmony with the resolution. I believe it is in the interest of all hon. members, whether they live in corn-producing counties or not, to take an active interest in this resolution. I am not entirely convinced of the necessity of the part relating to drying and subventions. Of course in the west our corn carries a lower moisture content than corn in Ontario, consequently drying is not such an important factor.


Paul Joseph James Martin: What is the moisture
content?


Howard Waldemar Winkler: I believe it is about five per cent below the average in Essex and Kent; that would be about sixteen per cent. As the hon. member for Souris (Mr. McDonald) mentioned, there is a corn-drying plant in our area. It has been one of the most profitable enterprises in the area, and as long as there is a profit element in it I see no reason why the government should undertake to erect drying plants there. Until we find that the com cannot be properly marketed through these privately owned drying plants I would hesitate about giving my approval to that part of the resolution.
I noticed that the hon. member for Essex East mentioned cheaper freight rates. I hope that we can rely on his support when we ask for the restoration of the Crowsnest rates on western moving traffic.
I think on the whole the resolution of the hon. member is a very worthy one and deserves the consideration of all hon. members.


Mr. F. C. BETTS (London):: I have listened with much interest to the remarks of the hon. member for Essex East (Mr Martin), and
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should like to congratulate him on his very-informative and excellent presentation. I notice that in his resolution he calls on the government to consider the necessity for improved marketing facilities and the need for providing adequate storage, drying, government grading and inspection facilities, in order that the quality of the corn may be improved and its production increased.
I do not know whether the hon. member is going the most direct way about achieving the very laudable object which he seems to have in view. I should like to draw to his attention some of the provisions of the Natural Products Marketing Act of 1934. Under the powers of the board provided in section 4 of chapter 57 of the statutes of 1934 we find the following:
(1) The board shall, subject to the provisions of this act, have power
(a) to regulate the time and place at which, and to designate the agency through which the regulated product shall be marketed, and-


Paul Joseph James Martin: Will the hon. member permit a question?


Frederick Cronyn Betts: Well, we allowed the hon. member to speak without any interruption and I should like the same privilege. Perhaps if I do not exhaust my time I will answer questions afterwards. The section continues:
*-to determine the manner of distribution, the quantity and quality, grade or class of the regulated product that shall be marketed by any person at any time, and to prohibit the marketing of any of the regulated product of any grade, quality or class.
And later in the section we find that the board shall also have power:
(e) to assist by grant or loan the construction or operation of facilities for preserving, processing, storing, or conditioning the regulated product and to assist research work relating to the marketing of such product.
My submission is that within the four corners of that act, and the regulations which the board was entitled to make pursuant to the act, all the relief which the hon. member seeks was to be obtained. That act had been invoked with entire success in connection with the marketing of a number of products. I know from personal observation that it resulted in placing many millions of additional dollars in the pockets of tobacco growers in Norfolk and of apple growers and others throughout the dominion. By the present government that act was referred to the privy council for determination of its constitutional validity, and as has been stated more than once in this chamber, the reference was made as an abstract theoretical question, which in my submission was entirely improper; and in the course of the argument before the privy
fMr. Betts.]
council counsel for the Dominion of Canada, whose duty it was to support the validity of the act, virtually threw the case away by admissions he made. I would remind the mover of the resolution that his party voted against that act in this chamber, with the exception of the hon. member for Melville (Mr. Motherville) a former minister of agriculture, whose views on matters of that sort are particularly sound. I would therefore suggest to the mover of the resolution that if he really wants to obtain the orderly marketing of corn produced in Essex county- and I should like to have it for our corn from Middlesex county-he had better come over to this part of the house where constructive efforts have been made towards improving the marketing of natural products.


Paul Joseph James Martin: Will the hon. member permit me to ask a question now?


Frederick Cronyn Betts: Yes.


Paul Joseph James Martin: If what the hon. member has said is true, when the act was in existence why was not corn brought within its operation?


Frederick Cronyn Betts: The Liberal party allowed the act to remain in operation for only a limited time. It was applied to many natural products, but Rome was not built in a day.


Paul Joseph James Martin: It was not applied to com.


Frederick Cronyn Betts: The researches as to com had not been completed and regulations had not been put into effect before the government changed over.


Mr. S. M. CLARK (Essex South):: I shall not take up much time this afternoon, since the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) has covered the situation very ably. But I might summarize what I believe are the problems relating to corn, and why this resolution should be considered by the government.
In the first place it has been proved many times that we grow high quality com. We are able to compete at international shows and come away with our share and more than our share of the awards. As the hon. member has pointed out, at one time western Ontario produced as high as 22 million bushels of com a year, proving that we are more than able to produce enough com for the Canadian market, which I believe has an average annual consumption of about 14 million bushels. We have had difficulty in some years past with the corn-borer, but I believe it is now fairly well under control. Our next difficulty in competing with foreign com was our lack of facilities to put our com into proper con-

Corn-Marketing and Storage
dition. First, we must consider the drying of that product. As the hon. member for Essex East has pointed out, the average moisture content of our com, in the early fall, is around 23 per cent or 24 per cent. To bring that down to 12 per cent or 14 per cent requires facilities which at the present time we have not in that district.
As he pointed out, we have to compete with well graded com. We have no graders in connection with our com industry at the present time. As has been pointed out, there is no government inspection, so that anyone buying our com cannot have a government certificate certifying that he is getting the quality he purchased. Then, we have no market place, no place in which to concentrate or collect our com so that it can be moved in quantities.
Those are the four deficiencies in the present system. May I say a few words to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley). Possibly the reason the former member for Essex South, Mr. Gott, is not in the seat in the house now occupied by the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Glen) lies in the fact that during the regime of the previous administration no group of farmers was treated as unfairly as the com growers, or had to compete with the unfair competition they had to face. First, they had to compete with free com, corn subsidized by the South African government and carried on boats subsidized by the Canadian government. All that happened under the high protectionist policy of the previous administration.


Ernest Edward Perley: I suppose the hon.
member will support a tariff on com?


Mr. CLARK (Essex):: Yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: Another convert.


William George Clark: That is probably the reason the former member for Essex South is not in his seat. Apparently his influence in curing the ills of the com growers was not very great.
I trust the present government will give the resolution of the hon. member every support. I am pleased to support it in every way, and I hope that in the very near future results may flow from it.


Mr. J. GORDON ROSS (Moose Jaw):: Mr. Speaker, I wish first of all to congratulate the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) upon moving the resolution now before the house. Hon. members opposite have said that great interest was taken in the matter by a former member of the house. I do not remember any occasion
in which he moved a resolution touching upon the matter.
The hon. member for Essex East has made out a good case in support of his resolution. He spoke of the adaptability of certain counties in Ontario to the growing of com and, if his figures in regard to yields, were correct, I believe if given proper facilities for inspection, grading, sale and the like, the growers in those counties should have no difficulty in competing with other countries. If the yield in that section of Ontario is 45 bushels to the acre, against 26 bushels in the United States and only 18 bushels in the Argentine, certainly the Ontario farmer must be producing corn at a lower cost per bushel-or should be, provided he has proper facilities for its disposal.


Mr. ROWE (Dufferin-Simcoe):: You would not suggest that the duty be taken off?
Mr.	ROSS	(Moose	Jaw):	The	hon.
member would probably suggest more duty. I have taken my stand in the house as a free-trader on all things.


William Earl Rowe: Consistently.
M.r.	ROSS	(Moose	Jaw):	The	hon.
member for London (Mr. Betts) suggested placing this matter under the marketing act which as I understand it, is not now in existence.
The resolution refers to the work of the Board of Grain 'Commissioners for Canada. I can remember that many yeans ago in western Canada there was a great battle waged by the farmers for facilities for the grading, weighing and proper inspection of their grain. The hon. member for Melville (Mr. Motherwell) was one who instituted that fight in western Canada, and great credit is due him for the part he played at that time.
The board of grain commissioners, chiefly I believe because it was instituted in the first instance to handle that great exportable surplus of wheat grown in western Canada, is under the Department of Trade and Commerce. At times there have been difficulties in the house in connection with placing certain provisions under the grain act. At all times the question has been raised as to whether or not the grain act should be federal. The board of grain commissioners and the Department of Trade and Commence have set up in Canada the finest system of handling grain to be found anywhere in the known world. We have the best grading and inspection facilities, the best weighing facilities, and the best facilities in the world for the bulk handling of all kinds of grain for export.
Corn[DOT]-Marketing and Storage

Year by year improvements in our system of handling grain have been made, and those improvements have been to the advantage of grain producers in Canada. In my mind it lias always been a question as to whether the inspection, weighing and grading of grain should be under the Department of Trade and Commerce, or whether that part of it done in Canada might- more properly be done by the Department of Agriculture. Here we have a situation in which possibly, were the handling of grain under the Department of Agriculture, in connection with their present work of finding markets within Canada for our farm products, they might be able greatly to assist the producers of com in the counties ndicated.
I believe the board of grain commissioners have rust research laboratories under their control; no doubt those would be properly under the Department of Agriculture. I am not criticizing the work of the board of grain commissioners, under the Department of Trade and Commerce, because I believe they have done excellent work in past years; to-day under the present minister they are doing even better work than they did in the past.
I can remember the fight in western Canada for the grading, inspection and weighing of grain, and I can well understand the position of the farmers in a certain portion of Ontario who are endeavouring to obtain those facilities [DOT] for the handling of their grain for which we fought so long for the handling of western products. In connection with this matter I notice the resolution states that the marketing facilities for the product are inadequate. On other occasions, both in and out of the house, I have referred to the lack of marketing facilities in Canada for the products of the farm. In practically every industry except agriculture great stress has been placed upon merchandising, advertising and the sale of the product. We have lagged behind in agriculture.
Through our federal and provincial departments of agriculture we have endeavoured to teach our farmers better cultural methods. We have endeavoured to keep their live stock free from disease and we have set up quarantines on animals coming in from other countries. Through our experimental stations we have endeavoured to produce new and better grasses, grains, fruits and the other commodities which our farmers grow. Through these departments we have endeavoured to provide the farmer with a certain amount of information with regard to possible markets for his products; but until now we have never gone seriously into the business of educating the agriculturist in the preparation of his products for export, nor

have we seriously tried to find world or domestic markets in which these products could be sold efficiently.
I want to congratulate the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler) upon the work that has been done by the grain committee of the council, of which he is chairman, in Great Britain and other countries in connection with the sale of Canadian wheat. For many years people in Canada thought it was impossible properly to market wheat, but through the Canadian wheat board action has been taken in Great Britain to popularize bread made from Canadian flour. So far the results have been astounding. An advertising campaign has been carried on in connection with certain types of bread which must of necessity be made from flour containing a high percentage of protein, which is obtainable in quantity only from Canadian wheat. The result is that these types of bread have become very popular in England, About sixty per cent of Canadian wheat must be used in the milling of flour for this bread. If hon. members could see the advertising that has been put out in Great Britain to bring about the use of a greater percentage of Canadian wheat, they would agree with me that perhaps the grain committee, under the chairmanship of the minister, has done some of the smartest advertising ever carried out in the British market. Fortunately we have enough high grade wheat this year to carry through until another crop is harvested; but with the increased sales which will result from this advertising we can expect that a larger percentage of Canadian wheat will be used next year and the following years in the mix. This is bound to be the result if the work of the wheat board and the Department of Trade and Commerce is continued.
Many people have said that it is difficult to advertise and merchandise farm products, but I have never believed that. I think it is easier to sell something that people actually want than something they do not. The successful industry is the one that goes out and puts on a real sales campaign. I know of one organization that was able to keep out of the red in the depression years from 1930 to 1934 and 1935. I refer to the California Fruit Growers Exchange. It should be easier to sell wheat, butter, eggs and beef than it is to sell oranges, which are more or less a luxury product. In order to show what salesmanship can do it is interesting to note that 95 per cent of the oranges from the United States that are purchased in Canada are sold by the California Fruit Growers Exchange, even though not over 50 per cent of the oranges produced in the United States

Corn-Marketing and Storage
are produced in California. Florida oranges could reach Canada with perhaps a shorter freight haul than those from California, but these are the results obtained by this organization through advertising their produce in this and other countries.


Mr. GLADSTONE:: It is because they are of a better quality.


John Gordon Ross: There are two kinds of oranges. They grow at different times, but I do not think there is any great difference in quality between the Florida orange and the California orange. California certainly sells both kinds, the Valencia and the navel orange, and it sells them at the same season of the year that Florida has her great production on the market. I give that simply as an instance of how farm products can be advertised and merchandised, and I believe that we in this country should take a leaf out of their book and endeavour through our departments to sell our products in other countries of the world by following the same methods.
I know the Department of Agriculture last year started their marketing branch, and they had exceptionally good results in the Dominion of Canada. I have not the exact figures, but I know that just recently there appeared to be a large surplus of apples in the dominion, so large that producers of apples both in Ontario and British Columbia became-alarmed whether they would be able to find a market for their apples. They got in touch with the marketing branch of the Department of Agriculture, and that branch agreed to help them endeavour to find a market within Canada for their surplus of apples, and within the last five or six weeks the major portion of that surplus has been sold within Canada itself to the Canadian people. The net result is that the apple growers are now in a position to market their product in the ordinary way and are no longer afraid of a glut on their market in this country.
My hon. friend's resolution brings up the question of the inspection and grading of farm commodities. We do inspect and grade some of our farm commodities in Canada, and in years gone by we have run into considerable criticism when any new grading system was moved for in this house. I well remember the time when the hon. member for Melville put through, as Minister of Agriculture, regulations for the grading of eggs. I can remember that members of the house were very much against that measure at that time, and farmers generally throughout the country were against it. I believe that the
idea of the Minister of Agriculture at that time was to endeavour to find a market for our eggs in the old country. But a peculiar thing happened after the grading of eggs was an accomplished fact, and that was that the consumption of eggs in Canada itself rose to practically double what it was prior to the establishment of grading. That is easily explainable. When people can depend absolutely upon procuring a quality product they will buy more and more of it, especially an article like eggs. Those who like a boiled egg for breakfast would be finished with eggs for weeks if one morning they knocked the top off an egg and found that it was not quite right; but after the egg-grading regulations came into effect gradually the housewives throughout Canada found they could purchase eggs anywhere and be sure of a high quality product, and the result was that the consumption of eggs throughout the dominion doubled. That is one of the best kinds of salesmanship which I know of with regard to agricultural products. You must see that quality goods are placed upon the market, whether in Canada or abroad, in good condition, and in order to do that I think we should go further in the grading and inspection of those farm commodities which we have to sell.
I believe that we ought to have markings for our farm products in the export markets just as we have our certificates for No. 1, No. 2, No. 3 and No. 4 northern wheat. On the markets of the world to-day our wheat is designated by government inspection certificates setting out the grade, and all buyers of that grain know exactly the quality they are purchasing. In regard to other farm products I think it is equally important that we in this house should see that the departments of government put into effect in Canada a proper inspection and grading system for all farm products which are to be exported, and no farm product should be allow- * ed to be exported unless it is graded, and the grade designated. If this is done, our customers overseas, when they bought a No. 1 grade Canadian article, whether it be bacon, beef, eggs, butter, cheese, apples, peaches, canned goods or any other farm product exported, would know that they were getting a high quality article. I do not see how we can ever expect to place our farm products on the export market, or sell as many of them as we might do in this country, if we do not arrange matters so that the buyers of the products will know that they are getting the highest quality article when they pay for the highest quality article. We spend a great deal of money in many of our departments. I have often criticized the
woo
Corn-Marketing and Storage

government for not spending sufficient money in the Department of Agriculture, and here is one place where I think a considerable amount of money could be spent to advantage by the dominion government in a way that would bring a tremendous return not only to the Canadian farmer but to everybody else in Canada, because after all most of the people in Canada are dependent upon the purchasing power of the farmer.
In connection with the sale of different agricultural products for export and of products that might be imported into this country, may I point out this fact in regard to grain being produced in one particular area of the countiy to be sold all over the country. Most of us know that Russia is a great grain-growing country, and yet Russia exports grain by the Black sea, and imports grain at Vladivostock, the reason being the tremendous freight haul from one end of the country to the other. That, of course, has some bearing upon this resolution. It hardly seems possible to me that a freight rate could be put into effect that would take corn from, say, Windsor, Ontario, to Vancouver, British Columbia, or to Vancouver island, when corn can so easily be brought in there by water from other countries.


Paul Joseph James Martin: If I may ask the hon.
member a question in reference to the statement he has just made, has he taken into consideration that with the great water facilities which we have in western Ontario, the transportation costs from, let us say, Windsor to Vancouver, would be relatively cheaper than the costs now for transportation completely by rail?


John Gordon Ross: If com can
be shipped from Windsor to Vancouver by water-and I know there is water all the way-the question still remains whether the bottoms are available. I think a tremendous haul like that might make it impossible for us to sell our corn on the west coast, although I believe that practically all the corn which can be grown around Windsor could easily be consumed at points that are not so far distant. I do not think the feeder on the west coast should be penalized on account of an endeavour to ship corn from Windsor by an all-rail route.


Paul Joseph James Martin: We can offer it to you as cheap as and cheaper than you are getting it now.


John Gordon Ross: Well then, we shall certainly buy it. I never saw a man in my part of the country who would not buy in the cheapest place. As a matter of fact one of our great protests in this parliament
[Mr. J. G. Ross.l
has been against our inability to do so. I wish to be able to buy in the cheapest market, no matter where it is.
I am not opposed to this resolution; I am all in favour of the farmers of Ontario having the facilities that have already been given to farmers in other parts of Canada. I believe, however, that those facilities could better be given were all this business of inspection, grading, etc., of farm products under the one federal department and under the same department which is endeavouring to find markets within Canada for these products. As regards markets external to Canada, that was dealt with by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) some time ago.
It is, I believe, the business of the dominion Department of Agriculture to * inspect, grade and prepare for marketing products for export, and to inspect, grade, prepare and find markets for those same commodities within Canada. But I believe it is the right of the Department of Trade and Commerce to take from the Department of Agriculture responsibility for those commodities when they are shipped overseas or to other countries, and to extend to all farm commodities the work they have already started with regard to grain, so that the farmer may be placed in a somewhat similar position to those large industries which have established their own marketing facilities. After all, the farmer is an individual, and it is very hard for him to spread his sales force all over the world. We now have a department which is getting in touch with buyers in every country in the world, and if the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler) would, where necessary, add to his staff of men who have knowledge about farm products, and push the sale of farm products generally as he is now pushing the sale of Canadian wheat in Great Britain, he would be doing the greatest service to the farmers that can be done at the present time.


Mr. W. G. WEIR (Macdonald):: I am prompted to say a few words in this debate, largely because of observations made by my two very good friends the hon. member for Souris (Mr. McDonald) and the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Winkler). Lest the house may think that corn-growing in Manitoba is confined to those two constituencies, which by the way are boundary constituencies, *the fact of the matter is that corn-growing in Manitoba has been progressing with leaps and bounds during the past number of years, and so far from being confined to the area directly tributary to the United States boundary, has now spread largely over the whole province. This is particularly the case, I think I may say, with respect to lands

Corn-Marketing and Storage
which, though I would hesitate to call them submarginal, are certainly of the lighter type, where the difficulty of producing our ordinary cereal crops is becoming greater and greater. Here corn-growing is gaining considerable ground. I refer particularly for the moment to the area immediately adjacent on the north to the area to which the hon. members have already referred, and which is equally proud of its success so far as corngrowing is concerned; I believe that more and more corn will be grown there as time goes on.
The hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) might be surprised, were he to come to Manitoba, at the extent to which corn is being grown in that province. May I add, as a little sideline to the observations which have been made this afternoon, that last fall we had in my own constituency what so far as I know is the first com-husking *competition in Canada. Those who have had an opportunity of paying some attention to similar events in the 'United States can probably realize the interest it created. In the United States they go even to the extent of making such affairs a national event and the performance is broadcast at the time of the competition. We were therefore very proud of the distinction of holding in our own locality the first corn-husking competition.
With us, of course, corn has gone through quite an evolution. It started out, as naturally one would expect as a fodder proposition. Our immediate difficulty was, however, to provide for keeping it for use in the winter time. The old idea of stooking it up in the fields and attempting to bring it in in. the winter time created a very serious difficulty on account of freezing down and deep snow. The extra labour required in that regard discouraged rather than encouraged the use of corn. Afterwards, from the fodder point of view, the silo idea came into being. Here again the fact that the corn had to be cared for at the same time that our ordinary cereal crops required attention, raised an additional difficulty. Moreover, owing to frost, the stave upright silos have not been altogether satisfactory in our climate. From that we drifted to the idea of trench silo, but here again we encountered difficulties. In the last two or three years there have been developed various methods of keeping com fodder through the winter and I have had an opportunity of seeing many of them tried out. Some farmers go to the extent of taking the corn from the binder and piling it in stacks, packing it hard, and that method has been fairly successful. Others cut it up. The
latest idea-it is not a new idea by any means -seems to be a lower silo of considerable size. A representative of one of the lumber companies in northern Manitoba told me a few weeks ago that the biggest business they had at the present time was in the sale of the snow fences we see along the highways. These fences are used for silo purposes. Paper is put inside and the ensilage is put in that, and this has proved satisfactory.
Another thing that has encouraged corngrowing in our province, and I think it will do a good deal to maintain its popularity, is the fact that during the drought periods corn has suffered less than any other crop. Fortunately the grasshoppers did not attack it to the same extent. Many times we have had other fodder crops, particularly oats and barley, completely destroyed by grasshoppers, but we found that the com came through reasonably satisfactorily, from the standpoint of fodder. It is true the cobs looked as if a man with one tooth missing had been chewing at them, but at any rate we were able to obtain fodder. The result has been that a good many people have turned over a few acres to corn so as to be sure of a fodder crop to carry them through the winter.
As regards the resolution which my hon. friend has proposed, as I read it it seems to relate more to the mechanics of handling the corn. I really believe, although I have not had an opportunity of studying the matter very fully, that the Canada Grain Act already provides what my hon. friend has in mind so far as grading is concerned. It may be news to the hon. gentleman, but I was told by the chairman of the board of grain commissioners a few months ago that they were already handling com through the grain inspection department in Winnipeg. I presume that that would be com grown in Manitoba or farther west. From the standpoint of grading, therefore, the Canada Grain Act provides what is sought by the resolution. Observations have been made in this discussion with respect to control of corn. It has been said that there should be a greater control of corn. These observations, I believe, were largely directed to the suggestion that the , state or some department of government ' should give an assurance as to varieties that were being sown. Last year in this house we passed the Seeds Act, 1937, one provision being with regard to the control of seed corn. There was an amendment the purpose of which was to bring about a more strict control in this regard. So much seed corn happened to be transported from place to place by trucks that it was difficult for the

Com-Marketing and Storage

seed branch to keep control of it and to be assured that it was of a type satisfactory to the district in which it was grown and also that it had the proper qualities as to germination. In this regard, therefore, the Seeds Act provides protection.
One thing in connection with which I see a difficulty from the point of view of my hon. friends throughout Ontario, with an increase in corn production, is the question of drying. At the head of the lakes, of course, we have facilities for drying wheat. These facilities are provided for the most part by the elevator companies that handle the grain, additional charges being made for the service. In wet seasons they are used to a large extent. I do not know whether the same facilities would be satisfactory in the 'handling of corn, but I fancy that they would. In the country from which I come, where a good deal of com is grown for seed purposes,-either for fodder or for seed-the corn is dried in most cases. In fact, I presume that it is always dried, and every device imaginable is brought into play. Some people have set up elaborate drying apparatus, forced draught and all the rest of it, but I do not believe that they are able to dry the corn in the length of time my hon. friend suggested. I understand that not more than two batches a week can be dried.


Paul Joseph James Martin: They are antique.


William Gilbert Weir: Well, we use what facilities we have at hand. The hon. gentleman might be surprised to know that the commercial incubator used in the spring hatching season is used to dry a good deal of corn.
So far as the marketing of com is concerned, in the particular area from which my hon. friend comes, the production is local though it may be extended to other sections; but I presume that there is much localized production of seed and grain com as well. Experience in many places in the west has shown that where such communities are specializing in a certain type of crop it is not so difficult to organize some sort of marketing concern among them. I refer particularly to the alfalfa growers of southern Alberta and another group of alfalfa growers in northern Manitoba who have specialized extensively in the production of alfalfa seed. These organizations, through their very careful selection of seed and their careful cleaning of it, have established a reputation, and as a cooperative organization have joined together in the matter of sales with the result that they have gone along very well.
While listening to other hon. members discussing this question it occurred to me that in some of the statutes that have already been

passed some assistance might be given to the corn growers in connection with drying. I know that a subvention is provided for between the dominion government and the government of the province for the purpose of establishing seed-cleaning plants in different parts of the country. In our province there are a number of them. There is one not far from where I live where brome-grass-growing is specialized in. There the two governments cooperated in equipping that organization with a splendid seed-cleaning plant. If that is necessary for seed-cleaning probably it is equally necessary for drying com, and something might be done to assist the corn growers in that regard.
I wish my hon. friend the very best of luck in the consideration which will be given by the government to his resolution. I have nothing against the resolution, but hon. members, particularly those on the agriculture committee, are interested in the matter, and I imagine if he would press it there would be no difficulty in having the agriculture committee meet on one or two occasions to deal with the matter, merely for the purpose of securing additional information, calling before it departmental officials and others interested, probably including some from his own district. I offer that suggestion to him.
Reference was made by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle to the tariff on corn imposed by the former government. At that time I stated that I did not see what difference it made to put a duty on com. The idea they were propounding then was that by placing a duty on corn they could increase the consumption of barley, which at that time was a drug on the market. My observation was to the effect that I could not see what difference it made whether our barley was competing with com in a foreign market or com was competing with our barley in this market.
As the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Euler) may wish to make a few remarks on the resolution, I shall make way for him.


William Daum Euler: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact I have no extended comments to make on the resolution. In the few minutes at my disposal I might take the opportunity to compliment the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) not only on the mass of valuable information he has placed before the house, but also on the manner in which he did this. I was particularly interested when he said that the corn grown in the western Ontario peninsula is of as good quality as corn grown anywhere else in the world. I admit that while I have no intimate knowledge of the

Com-Marketing and Storage
corn question, the information I had rather led me to believe that because of the greater moisture content of Canadian com it was under somewhat of a disability as compared with corn produced elsewhere. But if it is true that in western Ontario or anywhere else in Canada we can grow com which is as good as that from any other country in the world, surely it is an anomaly that we cannot at least supply our own Canadian market.
This matter of the production, grading, drying and storage of com to some extent comes under the care of two departments, the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Trade and Commerce. I need not say to my hon. friends, especially those across the. way, that these two departments cooperate in everything in the highest degree-


Mr. STEWART:: Sometimes.


William Daum Euler: -and they are quite willing to do so with regard to the production and sale of corn. The factors in the situation which have been discussed most particularly seem to be marketing, storage, drying, grading and inspection. All of these affect the quality of the commodity. I am glad to know that inherently the quality of Canadian com is what my hon. friend says it is. The question of quality has not been brought particularly to the attention of the Department of Trade and Commerce. I cannot recall that the matter of grading and inspection was ever brought before the department. I know that the question of storage was brought before the Department of Trade and Commerce in the time of the former government, and also of the present government. That particular matter is not being stressed to-day, and I might leave it with this statement, that there is not wanting in Canada at the moment equipment for either storage or drying of com. I regret that my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) is not here to-day, because many of the matters under discussion come more particularly within his province.
I -might summarize the results of some investigations made by members of the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Trade and Commerce: There is much poor quality com, resulting from admixture of varieties, too many varieties and poor varieties; also poor culture and harvesting practices, and lack of suitable com cribs on the farm. This is not entirely consistent with the statements which have been -made that Canadian corn is just as good in quality as other corn, but this is easily capable of correction. Then there is the matter which has been mentioned, that much of the corn has too high a moisture content, which causes heating in storage after shipping and is therefore a 51952-894
serious drawback. There are insufficient hogs in the corn area to consume at a profit the inferior com and keep it off the market. There is also still a good deal of damage caused by the corn-borer. Finally-and this touches the Department of Trade and Commerce-the official grades and inspection services for both seed and commercial com are inadequate. As far as the seed com is concerned, I think that is entirely a matter for the Department of Agriculture, but grading and inspection are for the Department of Trade and Commerce, through the grain board, which is under the jurisdiction of that department.
Now my time is up. In conclusion I should like to say that as far as the matters discussed to-day affect the Department of Agriculture, I am sure my colleague the Minister of Agriculture will take due note of what has been said. I shall further bring it to his attention. With regard to the matter of inspection and grading, in 1936 the Department of Agriculture reported that an adequate system of inspection and grading of commercial corn was vital to any successful development of market practice, and recommended that the whole question of commercial grades of com should be reviewed. It has been brought before the board of grain commissioners, and they reported that the machinery for inspection and grading was inadequate, contrary to the expression of opinion by the hon. member who preceded me (Mr. Weir). Section 36 of the Canada Grain Act provides:
No inspecting officer in the eastern division shall be required to inspect any grain which is not in the district to which such officer has been assigned, or to inspect any grain in such district more than five miles from his office unless the person requesting such inspection has first paid to the inspecting officer a sum sufficient to cover such officer's travelling expenses between his office and the place where such grain is and return, and also such an allowance for his time as the board may direct.
There is only one grain inspector for Ontario, and he is located in Toronto. But as a result of consultation between the Department of Agriculture and the board of grain commissioners, it was arranged:
1.	That the Department of Agriculture would consider the present definitions of the different grades of corn, and suggest to the Board of Grain Commissioners any changes which they might feel were necessary.
2.	That the Board of Grain Commissioners as an experiment would provide for the local inspection of corn in Ontario under the Canada Grain Act, and that officials of the Department of Agriculture would, as far as possible, carry on inspection services under the direction of the board's chief grain inspector, all actual details of the procedure to be worked out later,
Privilege-Mr. Pelletier

after discussion between the Board of Grain Commissioners' chief grain inspector and officials of the Department of Agriculture.
When the general revision of the Canada Grain Act is undertaken, we hope such amendments will be made as will meet the wishes of those who have spoken here this afternoon. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to the carrying of the resolution.
Motion (Mr. Martin) agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 17, 1938