1938-05-27

Mr. W. R. MACDONALD (Brantford City):: Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the house I move, seconded by the hon. member for Halton (Mr. Cleaver):
Whereas the Central Finance Corporation applied for change of its name and increase of capitalization at the last session of parliament, and paid a fee of $1,400, which is chargeable on the increase in capital, and also paid in addition thereto all other parliamentary fees;
And whereas on account of the shortness of the session of parliament, 1937, the bill was not presented to the House of Commons for third reading;
And whereas the said corporation is applying at the present session of parliament for the same increase in capital;
And whereas the said corporation is required this year to pay again all parliamentary fees in connection with its present application, and should be relieved only of payment of fees chargeable on increase of capital:
Therefore be it resolved that the Central l1 inance Corporation be not required to pay the fees chargeable on increase of capital, on its application now before parliament for increase of capital, notwithstanding standing order 93, paragraphs (3) and (4) of the standing orders of the House of Commons.


Mr. BENNETT:: Should this not have gone to the committee?


Hon. H. H. STEVENS (Kootenay East):: Mr. Speaker, this resolution came up before the banking and commerce committee and a discussion of the subject took place a day or two ago. My understanding was that the whole matter should stand until the committee had completed its work and was prepared to make a report which would affect the whole subject. I must respectfully protest against the resolution passing to-day. In any case there should be notice and, in the second place, I suggest it should not be considered until the committee has completed its work or completed consideration of the matter affecting this resolution.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): I was not present before the banking and commerce committee when the matter was discussed, but I am advised there was a general consensus of view that while the company should be called upon to pay its full parliamentary fees this session for the bill, it should not again be charged the SI,400 which it paid last year with respect to the application of last year for an increase in capital, which it did not secure.

Central Finance Corporation
I have no objection in principle to what is here proposed, but I am advised by the clerk of the house that this motion should be referred for consideration to the committee on standing orders, and that it is not appropriate that it be dealt with in the manner now proposed. I think I would be in order in moving that the matter be referred to the committee on standing orders.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That does not alter the
position which I have taken. A definite understanding was arrived at in the banking and commerce committee that this matter would not be proceeded with until there was further discussion of it; because I desired to discuss it in that committee before it was brought to the house at all. I suggest to the minister that the motion be allowed to stand until the banking and commerce committee have disposed of the matter and we have been given an opportunity to discuss it there. I have no doubt it will carry, but it should be allowed to stand in the meantime.


Mr. DUNNING:: On the point of order,
standing order 101 reads:
No motion for the suspension of the standing orders-
Just what this resolution is.
-or any rule respecting a petition for a private bill will be entertained, unless the same has been reported upon by the committee on standing orders, and the committee in its report shall state the grounds for recommending such suspension.
The only question in my mind with respect to following the course suggested by the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) is this: Can this corporation get its new application before parliament without again paying 81,400? Can it proceed at all? I think that is the question that must be decided, and the standing orders committee would be the appropriate body to go into that phase of the matter.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have no objection to that at all, but at the same time there has been no notice of motion, I suggest that it should stand until the proper forty-eight hours have elapsed.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have no objection to
its standing as a notice of motion, but my amendment for reference to the committee on standing orders should also stand as an amendment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I suggest to the hon. member that he add to the motion as read by the Speaker these words, "such payment having
been made in 1937." Then you would have it upon the records of the house. The preamble is not part of the motion as read.


William Ross Macdonald: I shall
be glad to adopt that suggestion. When this matter came up in the committee it was suggested that the amount paid be repaid to the company. The motion which I have made does not suggest repayment; it merely suggests that the company be not required to pay again what they have paid already.
Motion as amended stands.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 125, for the relief of Paul Sanson White.-Mr. Hill.
Bill No. 126, for the relief of Louise Maud Thomas Gregory.-Mr. Factor.
Bill No. 127, for the relief of Emma Kathleen Lavery Forester.-Mr. Graydon.
Bill No. 128, for the relief of Edith Margaret Campbell Quinn.-Mr. Hyndman.
Bill No. 129, for the relief of Dorothy Maud Doran Gay.-Mr. White.


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Before the orders of the day are called I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport (Mr. Howe), but as he is not in his seat it might be even more appropriately directed to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King). The question I wish to ask is based upon questions thait were asked previously and in a sense answered. On May 6 I placed the following questions on the order paper:
1.	Has the Minister of Transport recently concluded a special agreement with the Louis Dreyfus and Company or any of its allied or subdiary companies for the handling of grain through the government elevator at Quebec?
2.	If so, what are the rates charged under this special agreement? Are the rates lower than those approved by the board of grain commissioners?
3.	What are the storage rates to be charged, if any?
4.	Do other elevators at Sorel and Three Rivers, privately or otherwise, participate in the said agreement ?
5.	Were the terms of the said agreement submitted to and approved by the board of grain commissioners prior to its acceptance and completion?
Business of the House

6.	Under the Canada Grain Act, what authority determines or approves of the schedule of rates or tariffs charged in elevators operating in Canada?
On May 11 those questions were passed as an order for return. On May 18 I received what purport to be answers, reading as follows:
1.	No.
2,	3, 4 and 5. Answered by No. 1.
6. The Board of Grain Commissioners for Canada, as to the fixing of maximum charges.
The question I wish to ask is this: Will the Minister of Transport lay on the table of the house a letter which was sent by a member of the national harbours board to Mr. Kaiser of the Dreyfus Company of New York in the month of April-I have not the exact date,-together with a memorandum attached thereto, setting forth certain reduced rates for handling grain from lake vessels to the elevator at Quebec and from elevator to ocean vessels and agreeing to free storage and confirming an understanding previously arrived at?


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I have no knowledge
myself as to whether or not any such correspondence exists. I shall in the first instance have to speak to the minister. He would have to say what it would be proper to table. I shall have pleasure in doing that.



UNEMPLOYMENT


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) if he can give the house any further information with regard to the single unemployed situation in the city of Vancouver.
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of Labour): I have no further information to add to what has appeared in the press from day to day. My understanding is that the provincial government is dealing with this question as a matter of relief administration within the control of the province. I have nothing to add at this time to the statement I made some days ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: While the Minister of
Labour (Mr. Rogers) is dealing with this matter, perhaps he would answer a question I should like to ask. Is the floor surface of the post office building in Vancouver still occupied by single unemployed men?


Mr. ROGERS:: Our latest information is
that the floor of the post office building is still being occupied. However, from the beginning there has been nothing in the nature of disorder and nothing that has interfered with the transaction of public business.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I wonder if the minister has been advised, as I was yesterday by a gentleman who came through by air, that not only is the floor of the post office being occupied but it is being used as a sort of sports field where games have been set up and so on. It is a sort of public gymnasium for these men. That is the real use to which it is being put. It strikes me that we ought to have something more than the mere answer that these men have occupied the place and that there has been no disruption of business.


Hon. W. D. EULER (Acting Postmaster General):: The latest news received, and I have not had any to-day, does not bear out the rumour voiced by my hon. friend. The information we have is that strikers to the number of about five or six hundred are congregated in the lobby of the post office, but they are conducting themselves fairly well. There is no information whatever that they are conducting sports or games. However, I shall make inquiry immediately with regard to this matter.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There is no doubt about it.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I promised to give my right hon. friend (Mr Bennett) and the house information concerning the remainder of the legislative program of the present session. I do not wish to be held too strictly to account in respect of the measures I am now indicating, that they include absolutely everything that will be brought down, but so far as I can see at the moment there may be come legislation growing out of the reports of committees of the house and out of the reports of the royal commissions that have been recently tabled, also of course legislation arising out of the budget. Apart from those possible measures, there will be legislation introduced with respect to low-cost and low-rental housing and to authorize loans to municipalities for self-liquidating projects; a Canadian National railways finance and guarantee act; amendments to the National Parks Act, the Judges

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Act and the High Commissioner's Act, and possibly amendments to the Department of National Revenue Act and one or two other statutes.
For obvious reasons it is not possible to indicate definitely at present what legislation, if any, may be necessary as the result of the trade negotiations now being conducted in Washington.
The government has decided to acquire complete ownership of the Bank of Canada, and to pay for the outstanding shares held by the public at the average price at which shares have been sold during 1938. Legislation amending the Bank of Canada Act will be introduced accordingly.



THE BUDGET


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Richard Bedford Bennett: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) surely by this time, nearly the end of May, will give us some idea as to when we may get the budget. Business, I may say, is somewhat paralyzed waiting for announcements that may be of very great importance, and I think in the public interest we should have the budget at the earliest possible moment.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I agree at ODce that it is in the public interest always to have the budget at the earliest possible day in the year, and I have endeavoured to follow that practice. The reason why the budget has been delayed this year is apparent to all, and I have on several occasions given information with respect to the matter. I am sorry that at this moment I cannot add to what was said the other day with reference to it. Certainly from my own point of view and the point of view of the government it is desirable that the budget should be brought down at as early a day as possible, but we do not want to prejudice the possibility of including within it what obviously would be a very important part of it, if it can be so arranged. I can only say to my right hon. friend that the government does appreciate the desirability of bringing the budget down at the earliest possible moment and is doing all that it can to expedite matters. I shall endeavour to give the house at least one week's notice.
I do not agree that the absence of the budget so far this year is causing great paralysis of business. I think that business is showing a degree of confidence in the econ-
. . . * omic policies of the country which is very
gratifying indeed, and that it is standing up remarkably well in comparison with the economy of some of our neighbours.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH

[Stage Direction]
Miscellaneous grants-Grant to the Health League of Canada, $5,000.
Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health):: Mr. Chairman, I should explain that I am taking this item at this stage in order to give an opportunity to a number of members of the house who have intimated to me that they wish to discuss matters connected with this grant to the Health League of Canada.


Mr. HOWDEN:: Mr. Chairman, the health department of the federal government came into being in the year 1919. The hub and core of the movement was the creation of a branch for the prevention of venereal disease. The startling disclosures that had been brought to light in the early part of the decade, about 1914 and 1915, caused a furore and an uneasiness of mind in medical circles generally, with the result that medical boards all over Canada, hospital authorities and a number of prominent public-minded men appealed to the federal authority for the establishment of a department of national health centering around a branch for the prevention of venereal disease.
Prior to the twentieth century the medical profession was largely helpless with regard to the diagnosis and treatment of certain forms of venereal disease, but in the early part of the century, a number of important discoveries having been made in the science of medicine, attention was drawn to this very serious feature of our social life. There is a dread malady called syphilis. In the last forty years probably no disease has received so much attention from scientists, medical men and governments. Second only perhaps to another world war in which Canada would be involved, there is no more potent menace to our country and civilization. It is a chronic progressive disease, invariably fatal if not treated, but only so after a lingering loathesome course in which the victim is a source of danger to all with whom he or she may come in contact. Being a venereal disease and propagated by natural biological process, it is passed from sex to sex, the children of such unions being usually sooner or later the unfortunate victims of blindness, loss of hearing, crippled limbs or crazed intelligence. Because it is contagious
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it may be and often is innocently passed from person to person through the media of drinking cups, eating utensils, towels, etc. It has been called the great killer, and aside from heart disease, for much of which it is responsible, it is the cause of more deaths than any other single disease, not excepting cancer, tuberculosis or pneumonia. Owing to its chronic nature, a great many who suffer from it are constantly disabled from any form of work.
We have at present no intimate figures for this disease as applying to Canada. But a recent survey in the United States discloses the following facts: S34.000.000 is spent yearly in the United States for the care of the syphilitic insane, who comprise ten per cent of the total insane in the country; $10,000,000 is spent yearly for the syphilitic blind. This does not include the care of 40,000 who die yearly of heart conditions from this disease, or 160,000 who are treated yearly for syphilitic heart disease, or 500,000 new cases who apply for treatment each year. It is considered public enemy number one of American childhood, and affects 60,000 newborn infants yearly. It is the biggest single cause of stillborn children, and also the cause of many infant deaths in the first few weeks of life. One third of the children born yearly with congenital syphilis will develop partial or complete blindness if not treated. One million potential mothers have or have had syphilis, and none can be sure of having a non-syphilitic child. Most of these women are unaware of their condition until the first symptoms appear, namely blindness, a faltering heart, a stumbling gait, the birth of a still child, or the delusions of insanity. It affects twice as many women and children as tuberculosis, thirteen times as many as diphtheria, twenty-eight times as many as typhoid. Doctor Parran, surgeon general of the United States, says:
The most urgent public health problem in this country to-day is syphilis, because: Firstly, so many people have it, and when untreated or improperly treated its results are so tragic to them and costly to the community. Secondly it is contagious, and each person who has it is a menace to his or her associates. In the majority of cases it so cripples the mind and body that death, though hastened, never comes soon enough.
Now, Mr. Speaker, syphilis can be wiped out. For consider these figures. For every hundred thousand of population there are yearly in Sweden 7 new cases, in Denmark, 20; in Great Britain, 47; in Canada, 155, and in the United States of America, 796. New or old cases now under treatment in the United States number 683,000, and for every one such there is at least one other remaining

untreated. The United States, if it had adopted preventive conditions comparable to those that pertain in Sweden-fortunately it is now doing so-would have had 2,600 children born with congenital syphilis instead of 60,000. There is at present, or there was until a time ago, a bill before the United States congress which contemplated the expenditure of $3,000,000 in 1939, $6,000,000 in 1940, $12,000,000 in 1941, and $25,000,000 each year for ten years thereafter for the cure and prevention of syphilis. I understand that this bill has passed congress, but I believe that it has passed in a modified form.
This disease has probably come down to us from prehistoric times, but little was known of it until the latter part of the fifteenth century, when it appeared in epidemic form and was called the "great pox" to distinguish it from that disease to which the name smallpox was and is still applied. It was not until the middle of the nineteenth century that it was clearly distinguished from other forms of venereal disease, the common belief being that they were all manifestations of the same disease and involved a similar process; but in 1838 Ricord established definitely the cause and nature of one other form known as gonorrhoea. In 1903 Metchnikoff succeeded in transferring the disease from human beings to apes, and in 1905 Schaudinn discovered the Treponema pallidum, which is now identified as the causal agent of the disease. In 1906 Wasserman devised the method of diagnosis which bears his name, and in 1909 Ehrlich after 605 attempts, finally discovered his specific arsenical preparation which at the time was popularly known as 606.
Having now finally, after a century of fruitless search, found the cause, the means of early and sure diagnosis, and the cure for this very serious ailment, Osier entered upon an active follow-up study, and soon found that vast numbers of people, many ailing and others seemingly free from symptoms, were subjects of this disease. About 1913 it was estimated that twenty per cent of all hospitals in the United Kingdom, and ten patients per cent of all the population were infected with syphilis and that the disease killed 60,000 persons yearly in that land. A check up of the men under arms showed a large percentage of cases, and as these had to be segregated and treated it meant serious inroads into the fighting force and a great deal of trouble besides. In 1916 the Asquith government was called upon to take steps to deal with a serious national menace and the government reacted by offering to pay seventy-

Supply-National Health
five per cent of the cost of all efforts on the part of the health authorities towards the eradication of this disease.
Now we come a little closer home. As I stated a moment ago, in 1919 there was instituted in Canada the department of national health. The core of the movement centred around the branch for the prevention of venereal disease, and it was because of the startling disclosures, certainly for no other reason, that the department of national health was set up in Canada. [DOT] It is not at all necessary to go through the various steps leading up to the establishment of the institution. Suffice it to say that under the Hon. Mr. Rowell this department was set on foot in the dominion, and as a corollary to the movement there was established the dominion health council, composed of the chairmen of the provincial boards of health and, I believe, the deputy minister of national health for Canada. There was other representation as well, representation of farmers and labour and of certain women's organizations. But the substance of the dominion health council consisted of the chairmen of the provincial boards of health under the chairmanship of the deputy minister of national health.
The function of the dominion health council [DOT]was to advise the dominion department of national health regarding such steps as it was thought best to take for the promotion of the health of the people of Canada. A grant of $200,000 was placed at the disposal of the department, and, with the advice of the dominion health council, it was to be expended in different ways. The sum of $10,000 was to go for ordinary propaganda, advertising if you like; $10,000 was to be granted to the national council for the prevention of venereal disease, which is now the Health League of Canada. The function of the national council for the prevention of venereal disease, which organization, by the way, was composed of a number of wealthy, philanthropic and outstanding Canadians who gave freely of their time and money-much more freely than the federal government did-was to do everything possible to stamp out and prevent the spread *of this ravaging disease.
This money was to be placed at the disposal of the health departments of ithe provinces to be spent by them dollar for dollar in the prevention of venereal disease. The provinces readily took hold-Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, British Columbia and Saskatchewan; I fancy they all did. In a very short time there was a noticeable improvement. The percentage of syphilitic cases in the hospitals all over Canada, about ten per cent- 519S2-209
because it became the routine practice to examine cases entering hospitals-rapidly fell, and this program was followed for several years. Unfortunately, after two or three years the grant was reduced and-I need not go into details-in 1932 it was wiped out altogether. Not only that, but the branch for the prevention of venereal disease was eliminated, discarded from the department of national health, along with some very desirable branches of the department; and although the provinces made representations from time to time and pleaded with the dominion government for the reinstitution of the whole program which had been established in 1919, the plea received very little consideration. The grant has never been restored and the provinces have never since got any assistance. One can easily realize that the activities of the provincial health departments have been materially curtailed in this respect, particularly in the poorer provinces such as those in the west and perhaps to some extent the maritimes.
I am making these remarks in connection with a proposed grant to the Health League of Canada. I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that this organization is the agent that has kept interest alive in this matter. At one time it received a grant of as much as $20,000 from the dominion department of health. In 1933 it got nothing; in 1934 it got $5,000, and it has received $5,000 ever since. I will not say that I hold no brief for the league, because I do. Indeed, my remarks now are intended in the first place to stimulate the government to a realization of its responsibility so that it may make a reasonably fair grant to this organization, because no one can challenge the fact that the organization has been most useful not only in this particular 'branch of national health but in every other branch in connection with all forms of sickness. I should like to read a list of its activities. It publishes a quarterly magazine called Health-many of you no doubt have seen it-with a minimum distribution of 10,000 copies. It distributes monthly a bulletin called Canada's Health News, with an initial circulation of 10,000 copies. It broadcasts weekly over thirty-eight stations stretching from coast to coast. It sends out four news releases a week to every paper in Canada, some in French. It distributes cancer articles in French and English to 350 papers weekly. Recently 110 municipalities have appointed two representatives each to the council of the league. Affiliations have been promoted with a number of national associations. A national committee on venereal disease is active. A committee on periodic health examination is

Supply-National Health

promoting a specific scheme for an annual membership, including periodic health examination. A national committee on milk pasteurization has been appointed. After all the only safe milk is pasteurized milk. The only way to get ahead of undulant fever and tuberculosis and be sure they are stamped out is by positively pasteurizing the milk. It does not hurt the milk; pasteurized milk is just as sweet and just as wholesome as unpasteurized. I am not holding any brief for the creameries which distribute milk but as a medical man I believe very definitely that if we seek the best interests and the preservation of the health of our growing children we should insist on pasteurized milk and see that no other kind comes into our homes.
A parliamentary committee on health, consisting of thirty members of the Senate and House of Commons, has been organized by the league. And there are many other activities.
There is probably nothing more important to the people of Canada than their health. I am not going back over the old ground; I have discussed it here a number of times. The most important and vital thing to Canadians is good health. I have some figures here. I find in the vital statistics report for 1935, table No. 29, that there were 392 new admissions for general paralysis of the insane, which is one form of syphilitic insanity. A letter from the British Columbia health department estimates that the average cost to that province of one of these cases is $3,000 a year. This means that if 392 new cases are admitted to mental institutions in Canada yearly, and if these cases cost $3,000 each, the syphilitic insane cost this country SI,176,-000 a year. In a letter from the province of Ontario I find that in the year ended March 31, 1936, of a total of 14,142 patients in residence, 542 were cases of general paralysis of the insane, and 17 of cerebro-spinal syphilis, 449 cases in all. If these represent an average daily cost of only SI, which is absurdly low, the cost of both of these diseases in Ontario comes to $450 a day or $164,250 a year. Tor the whole dominion it would be roughly three times that, or $492,750.
I think I need not say much more. Consideration of these facts leads to but one conclusion. It is not a thing this country can afford to play with. What we want in Canada is a reestablishment of this whole health program which has been slighted and pushed to one side. If we do not get leadership from the federal department of health, what are we to expect from the provinces?

This is the central authority, the authority which has the power to institute any regulations.


Mr. McIVOR:: And the money.


John Power Howden: And they have the money; I said the power. I appeal to the minister and to the government and to the Canadian people to see to it that these matters are not neglected, but that we have a live and active health department in Canada which will oversee and assist the excellent work of the provinces. I recently received a letter from the Superior of the St. Boniface hospital, which is in the city of St. Boniface, in greater Winnipeg, and is of equal extent and excellence to the Winnipeg General hospital. It long since received a first class certificate from the American College of Surgeons. When the grant was cut so that the provincial board of health had to contract its activities in regard to this venereal disease question an arrangement was made with St. Boniface hospital to carry on the work. The communication I received from the Superior stated that it is becoming necessary to erect another edifice, partly to accommodate this branch of medicine so as to have it isolated from the hospital at large; and this wing will cost $140,000. Without taking further time I commend this matter to the careful consideration of the Minister of Pensions and National Health, to take such action as seems good to him.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: My speech on this
subject I think might be reduced to one word. As the committee has listened to the speech of the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Howden) I think a number of hon. members have wanted simply to say "ditto." I do not believe any good purpose would be served in attempting to cover the ground once more. I note that under item 246 there is a grant of $5,000 to the Health League of Canada, while under item 560 there is a grant to the French Language Medical Association of North America of $5,000. I presume a large portion of the latter vote would be spent in a jamboree, and following the night there might be "the morning after." That would be the end of the $5,000. In contrast with that for the $5,000 given to the Health League of Canada a service is rendered extending through 365 days of the year.
It is almost an insult for the dominion parliament to give a pitiably small amount like this for such a purpose. It may be said that the Health League of Canada is a private institution, and I can understand it might be the policy of the government not

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to make grants to private institutions. Personally I should like to see the time come when the dominion government would assume full responsibility. But as matters now stand, the burden of educational work for public health must be carried on by a private agency such as this.
I do think it is very strange that if the government wishes to avoid its own responsibility it should be permitted to do so by simply turning over the pitiably small sum of 85,000, when a similar amount is voted by the same department for one night's entertainment here in Canada of what is essentially a foreign association. Or, using another comparison, the amount is equivalent to the yearly annuity as voted last night to the minister plenipotentiary in France.
The amount is too small. I believe this is one instance where the great masses of the Canadian people would support the government in a liberal grant. Then, we may consider item 559, where $50,000 is given to combat venereal disease. That may seem a substantial grant, but I notice according to yesterday's newspaper that the United States federal government voted $15,000,000 for federal aid in eradicating venereal disease. While our population is only one-tenth as great, why could we not give one-tenth the sum given in the United States, instead of a miserable $50,000?
It seems to me that we fail to keep our sense of proportion in these matters. To most of us $50,000 would seem a fairly large sum; but we can vote millions on occasions. We have no hesitation in voting large sums of money for the purpose of making preparations for war, but in connection with a dread disease which was greatly increased as an aftermath of the war we find it very difficult to get the government to do very much.
The other evening the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Massey) gave an interesting description of conditions existing in Denmark, showing how in that country great care is taken of the health of cows and hogs. In fact even in Canada we do something for our animals.


Mr. SPENCE:: In a large way, too.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Yes; the amounts
we have been passing in the last few weeks would make large totals. I say if we can vote moneys for the health of cows, hogs and horses, why can we not do the same for human beings? I cannot understand the continuation of such an anomalous situation.
I shall not supplement to any extent the figures given by the hon. member for St. Boniface.
51952-209J


Mr. WOOD:: Does not the health of cows
have some relation to the health of human beings in Canada?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am sympathetic towards giving moneys for the health of cows, and I have no doubt that if the cows are kept in good health it may help to keep human beings that way. But we are giving a large amount of money to promote the health of animals and fail to give anything like a corresponding amount to combat directly human diseases. That is my point. These ought we to have done and not to have left the others undone-if you like to put it that way.
I believe it was the Health League of Canada which published figures showing that two per cent of our population, or 200,000 persons, are constantly ill, and at an annual cost of about $300,000,000. I submit that small amounts such as $50,000 for serums to combat venereal disease, or $5,000 for educational work such as is carried out by the Health League of Canada, are altogether too small, and should be materially increased.
Very frequently when matters of this kind are raised we are faced with the constitution, but I do not think in the present instance anybody has suggested that to deal with these matters is beyond the power of the dominion government. So far as 1 know the constitutional question has not yet been raised. I see the Minister of Finance looking at me; I do hope he will not attempt to raise any question of that kind.


Charles Avery Dunning: Why pick on me?


James Shaver Woodsworth: Well, the Minister of Finance might be thought to be holding
down costs. I find when there is any disinclination to go farther in accepting greater responsibilities, almost invariably the British North America Act is trotted out. In the present instance however I believe that has not been done.
I believe the evidence already given before the Rowell commission, as published in the press-if I may be permitted to refer to it- amply demonstrates that to-day it is the dominion government which has the financial resources, and that many of the provinces are in a rather bad way. If we are to do this work on an extensive scale I believe we should look to the dominion government to assume a very considerable proportion of the cost, and to give a lead to the provinces.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I should like to say only a few brief words in support of the vote.
My only criticism is that not enough money is being voted; the cause is worthy of a far
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greater expenditure. I believe more survey work should be done, because from the Atlantic to the Pacific hundreds of our men, women and children need medical attention. Prevention is better than cure, and I hope that next year when the vote is placed before the committee-if not this year-a great deal more money will be provided. The Health League of Canada deserves support. Certainly it is receiving very fine leadership from Doctor Bates who is giving his time to the work.


James Houston Spence: I endorse all that has been said by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), and the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Howden), who for many years has taken a deep interest in the matter. He has made a splendid presentation of this particular case. I do not imagine that anything we can do in this committee will increase the vote and I do not believe any one here will vote against this item. The amount to be granted is $5,000, but I regret that it is not 850,000. This Health League of Canada are doing a splendid work. I know what they are doing, because I have been associated with them for some time. I know the sacrifice that Doctor Bates has made in continuing to act as the head of the league. If you want to empty the asylums of this country you must do more preventive work in connection with disease. Our asylums are filled with people who are there because of a disease which is mentioned quite often in this house. I was a member of the city council of Toronto between 1910 and 1916 and for a time served as chairman of the property committee. I can remember going with the medical health officer to visit the isolation hospital. At that time there were between three and four hundred patients in that hospital with scarlet fever, diphtheria and other diseases. As a result of the work carried on by the Health League of Canada and of other measures adopted, there is not one patient in the isolation hospital of Toronto. This has saved the city of Toronto considerable money.
I think the country at large should make greater contributions for this purpose and I hope that next year this vote will be ten times what it is this year. We should vote more money for the saving of the lives of people as well as the saving of the lives of animals. I do not oppose any grant made in connection with the health of animals work, because it is just as necessary as this. The other night I happened to listen to a conversation between a number of doctors and veterinary surgeons and Doctor Bates, the head of this health {Mr. Mclvor.]
league, and I got an ear-full of what is happening in connection with the health of animals. I do not care how much is spent for that work or for this purpose, because it will save the country money in the end.


Mr. McCANN:: Mr. Chairman, I should like to concur in the observations which have been made by the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Howden) and my professional colleague. It is my belief that those who are interested in public health will have to impress upon the governments that old adage as to being penny wise and pound foolish. I do not think I could find a better illustration in support of that contention than this present vote. Looking down this page I see a grant of 85,000 to the Health League of Canada, a grant of 818,000 to the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, a grant of 84,050 to the Montreal Association for the Blind, and so on. Several appropriations are being made for institutions and organizations interested in the curative side of medicine. When one considers that a great deal of the disease that human flesh is heir to is preventable, it should be our object to try to impress upon those who have to do with government that if more money is spent in preventive medicine, less will be required in after years for curative medicine.
I hold no brief for the Health League of Canada any more than I do for any other voluntary agency that is attempting to carry on the work of preventive medicine by education. Disease in itself is a national question. The methods of control vary very little from coast to coast. Over the years it is seldom that a vote is altered because of any argument for or against, so perhaps we cannot hope to accomplish very much for the Health League of Canada in the way of increasing the grant being made this year. However, we may be able to lay the foundation for increased grants in the future.
The Health League of Canada, like other organizations, is a national voluntary association, the function of which is the education of the public on the need for promoting health conservation measures to the end that sickness and death rates may be reduced and the health standard raised as high as possible. In the brief submitted by the Health League of Canada to the Rowell commission they state that their formal aims and objects, among others, are to undertake such measures as may be considered desirable to promote personal and community health and the control and elimination of communicable diseases. Let me just digress here to say that the record of

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the Health League of Canada with reference to the control and elimination of communicable diseases has been an excellent one. The work they have done in this country in connection with diphtheria is one of the outstanding accomplishments in public health work in this or any other country. As a result of toxoid treatment and education along preventive lines, there has not been a single case of diphtheria in the past five years in five cities with an aggregate population of 800,000.
Another one of their formal objects is to cooperate with governments and with the medical, nursing and dental professions and with other associations for furthering the objects of the league. Another object is to promote, organize and assist provincial, local or other branch leagues, associations or organizations having objects altogether or in part similar to those of the league, and whether auxiliary to or independent of the league, and whether incorporated or unincorporated, and to prevent such branch leagues, associations or organizations from designating themselves by names indicating connection with the league without thereby becoming liable for the obligations of such branch leagues, associations or organizations. Another object is to raise funds as provided in the by-laws of the league for the proper carrying out of the objects of the league, and to expend the money so raised in the furtherance of its objects and out of said funds to establish or contribute to any trusts for the carrying out of said objects.
Another aim is to adopt such means of making known the work and operations of the league as may seem expedient, and in particular by advertising in the papers, by circulars, by purchase and exhibition of works of art or interest, by publication of books and periodicals and by granting prizes, rewards and donations. In that particular connection, they have put out a cinema entitled Damaged Lives. This has been shown throughout the world to over 5,000,000 people. As a result of the showing of that picture more people have been put upon their guard against a particular type of specific disease and have used preventive measures than could have been convinced by any other method of propaganda.
The affairs of the Health League of Canada are conducted by a board of directors which includes in its membership lay and medical members from all the provinces. The council of the league includes representatives of other associations, appointed members, and representatives of one hundred and ten municipalities. It has branches in Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Vancouver and in various small
cities. Public health education is carried on by means of press releases to most Canadian newspapers and weekly radio broadcasts over thirty-eight Canadian stations, the widespread dissemination of educational literature and the use of motion pictures. As one of the former speakers has said, it publishes a magazine called Health, with a circulation of ten thousand. I shall not repeat what has been already said with reference to its organization in 1920, or what has been said with respect to the work which it has carried on, particularly with reference to venereal diseases.
The whole thing boils down to this: whether or not the government of this country recognize the fact that it is good economic policy to spend money on preventable diseases; or do they wish to wait until such time as people are afflicted and then have to spend much more money on their housing and treatment? It has been already pointed out how great is the economic loss, what it costs for hospitalization, and what it costs in terms of the number of days and working hours lost by those who are sick.
With reference to the venereal disease part of the problem I think I can do no better than to read part of an editorial which appeared in Saturday Night of a few weeks ago, as follows:
The last twenty-five years of the history of Canada have been years of substantial progress. Not the least notable in the items of this progress have been the advances made in the control of certain diseases to which humanity is subject. Typhoid fever, diphtheria and infantile complaints have to a great extent disappeared. Milk-borne epidemics have become, with the spread of the practice of pasteurization, much less common. Perhaps the most remarkable of the advances in disease control are the reductions of tuberculosis mortality and of the incidence of the venereal diseases. A recent report of one of our large life insurance companies, discussing these advances, remarks that they are all the more remarkable in that they occurred during the period of the greatest war in history, in the face of the most frightful epidemic of modern times, and in spite of the severest period of depression known to the world.
The venereal diseases are a blot on civilization. One distinguished writer, referring to the prevalence of syphilis in the United States, calls this affection "A Shadow on the Land." It is indeed a shadow, particularly in a country of 120 millions which is said to have half a million new cases each year.
Fortunately prompt action on the part of the provinces and the dominion, some years ago, sufficed to exempt Canada, to a considerable degree, from the shadow referred to. During the early days of the great war, when the people of Canada were worried among other things by the rumours that our young men in the army were threatened by the venereal diseases, investigation here and abroad showed that there were, proportionately more cases of syphilis and gonorrhoea in the home population
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than in the overseas Canadian army. This startling revelation was augmented by evidence produced by the Canadian Social Hygiene Council, the leader in the movement (supported by medical health officers and various public bodies) to have the venereal disease problem attacked vigorously. The result was that the dominion government assisted the Canadian Social Hygiene Council (now the Health League of Canada) financially in order to continue its educational work. It also supplemented the provincial appropriations for venereal disease treatment and supervision by substantial grants in aid, with the result that some hundred clinics for treatment were established throughout the country. The necessary drugs were provided, social services created and specialist clinicians appointed. Up to 1937 more than 500,000 persons had received treatment. The effect of all this served to reduce the admission rates of many hospitals for these diseases very materially, in some instances in the case of syphilis by as much as 80 to 90 per cent.
In the year 1931 the Dominion Health Council, representing the departments of health of all the provinces, recommended to the dominion government that the existing plan be extended and grants inci'eased. In spite of this recommendation the then government abolished the division of venereal diseases in the dominion department of health and withdrew the grants to the provinces and to the Canadian Social Hygiene Council. Since then only a fraction of the grant to the voluntary association has been restored.
In view of the fine work accomplished previously and of the urgent need for continuous action if these most sinister of menaces to human life and happiness are to be kept under control, a large deputation visited the dominion minister of health in January and asked that the scheme be restored. Already the Canadian Medical Association, the Canadian Public Health Association, the Ontario Health Officers Association, the National Council of Women, and the Dominion Health Council, have approved the scheme.
It goes on to say that federal aid in this field should be reinaugurated without delay.
This grant of 15,000 is but a fleabite compared with what it should be to handle such a serious problem. The government of this country could well take into consideration the reestablishment in the department of national health of a division of venereal diseases, because money that is expended now in preventive medicine will in the years to come save a great deal of money. Let me give an illustration. A year or so ago, there were 394 cases of what is known as general paresis of the insane. That is due one hundred per cent to the specific disease of syphilis; there is no question about it among the medical men in this country. It costs approximately S3,000 per person to keep those afflicted with this disease, which is usually fatal, and there we have a cost of SI .200,000 for a preventable disease among 394 persons who probably could have been cured at an

expenditure of ten to twenty dollars apiece. The thing is that clinics should be available to these people, who are ignorant of the modes of infection and who have not the facilities for private treatment, where the disease could be diagnosed and advice and proper therapeutic treatment given. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this division should be reestablished.
I am not unaware of the fact that there is in the supplementary estimates another appropriation of $50,000 for the purpose of paying for arsenical treatment in the different provinces. It is not my purpose to discuss that at (this particular time, because it may be discussed when the item is before us, but lest I may not be here at that time I should like to suggest to the minister that that appropriation be not confined entirely to that one particular type of treatment, because many are treated by means of mercury and bismuth and other therapeutic agents. If the appropriation definitely specifies that it is to be for one particular line of treatment, the department of health is becoming the doctor instead of the donor.
I should like to say a word with reference to government aid to these voluntary agencies that are doing splendid work throughout Canada for the public health. Of these, the Health League of Canada stands among the foremost. The grant to that body could well be increased another ten or fifteen thousand dollars. My policy with reference to grants to voluntary agencies would be to give them money to help them along, to stimulate their work until such time as it became too much for them, and then it would be taken over by a government agency. The government must be alive to the responsibility which it has to the people as regards the care of their health. It was Disraeli who said that the public health of the country was the first charge upon any ministry. As we become more cognizant of that fact and more fully seized of our responsibilities, the jurisdiction of the federal department of public health will extend over an ever-widening sphere.
Let me commend the minister for having increased the scope of the activities of the public health department. It is indeed gratifying to medical men and to organized medicine throughout the country to know that there has been reinstituted a division of maternal and child welfare, that industrial hygiene has become a distinct activity, that there is a branch devoted to epidemiology, and a general extension of those public health activities which the people and the medical profession have demanded and to which they are entitled. I support this grant of $5,000 to the Health

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League of Canada, and I hope that between this session and the next the minister and his aides may be so impressed with the advantages of the work which has been done by the health league and with their own responsibility to the country that they will either set up within the department a division of venereal disease or increase their grant to the league.


Mrs. BLACK:: I have listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks of the two hon. members who belong to the medical profession. There is no woman in Canada who is not and should not be interested in the prevention of disease of all kinds. We are the ones who see the trouble, the sickness and the misery which ill health brings to the home. We must give a great deal of credit to a private organization, the Health League of Canada, which has worked so hard in bringing this matter before the government. I should like to suggest to the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Power) that he continue to exercise his well-known charm on the keeper of the purse-strings so that another session the grant, instead of being $5,000, will be $50,000.
As I look back over the years of the great war, I am appalled at the realization that preventive treatment was carried on to such a large scale during war time only. No money was spared. There were stations established where men and boys were taught to take care of themselves. Men were vaccinated and were given serums for tetanus and for typhoid fever. When I was in the munition areas of northern England I was vaccinated, given a shot in the chest for tetanus and also a serum for typhoid fever, because there was always danger of contagion. If we spend so much money in order that our men may be healthy to be killed, why should we not bring that lesson home and spend money that our men, our boys and our families may be kept healthy for the citizenship service we need so much at the present time?
It was interesting to me, when I read the pamphlets of the Health League of Canada, to note that the province of Quebec was the first province in Canada to establish a health unit. It is true that they received from the Rockefeller institute half the moneys they had to expend; the other half was divided between the provincial and municipal governments. If one province can do that, surely every province in Canada can do more and more in cooperation with the federal government. Lately in Ontario a law for the pasteurization of milk was passed, to be effective at the end of six months. That will be helpful to the young people of our country.
I know full well the effects of bovine tuberculosis. Over fifty years ago my father was on the board of regents of one of the state universities. The government of the United States sent out a young man who was perhaps ahead of his time; he was convinced that bovine tuberculosis was an established fact. Other members of the board of regents laughed at the idea of a cow having " consumption," as they called it then, but my father talked and reasoned with them. The herds were largely Jerseys and Alderneys, with some Holsteins. Finally my father said, "I will promise to pay twice the value of every cow killed which is not tubercular." The regulation went through, cow after cow was killed, and the herd was found to be horribly infected with tubercular trouble. In that state, I am told, bovine tuberculosis now is practically a thing of the past. The beginning of the change occurred over fifty years ago.
As human beings we move very slowly in protective measures until it is too late. Surely we must realize now that we do not want our growing boys and girls to be rickety, blind, deaf or dumb; we want magnificent healthy specimens, not because we are going to send them to war but because they will be the backbone of this country in the future; they will be our support as well as our care, they will be the future members of this house, in time of peace. Again I suggest to the minister that he look to the Minister of Finance, who perhaps is not as hard-hearted as some of us judge him to be, and next year he may loosen the purse-strings just a little.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: I assure the minister
that in all steps towards increasing the allotment for the prevention of disease and the amelioration of disease conditions in the country he will have the complete and unqualified support of all the people of the social credit movement; for it is characteristic and fundamental with the social credit movement that human values come first.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Health Branch-Venereal diseases-For the distribution of arsenicals to the provinces on the basis of population and the number of treatments and subject to an undertaking that the provinces will not curtail their venereal diseases expenditures, $50,000.
Charles Gavan Power: This is a proposal on the
part of the government to renew the assistance, which was interrupted in 1931, to provincial governments in their work to combat venereal disease.
As has already been explained, beginning in 1919 and down through the years until 1931 the federal government contributed to the provinces amounts running from $100,000
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annually to $200,000, and besides that it made certain special contributions to the Health League of Canada. In all, the amount contributed in order to inaugurate the campaign for fighting venereal disease was approximately $1,900,000, the theory being that if the federal government would contribute certain large sums both to the provinces and to voluntary organizations, the provinces and the public generally would be stimulated to undertake the work of fighting venereal disease. For reasons which it is not for me to discuss, in 1931 the government of the day decided that one way of economizing in this country was to cut out the grant made to the provinces for fighting venereal disease and also to abolish the grant made to the Canadian social hygiene council, now known as the Health League of Canada. Since that time, in 1934, I believe, the grant has been renewed to the Health League of Canada and it is only this year that we are returning to the system of assisting the provinces in their anti-venereal work, and we are doing so not by contribution. For some reason or other a great many of the provinces are rather averse to receiving contributions from us, and there have been objections in this house time and again to grants in aid on a straight contributory basis. It is very difficult to maintain control, and the leadership that everyone has been talking about does not remain so clearly in the hands of this federal department of health.
Last year we created a new division of epidemiology whose duty it is to work on this very disease as well as on others, and we also created a division of publicity, whose duty it will be to do most of the work carried on by the private agency. The division of publicity together with the division of epidemiology will give the federal department of health an opportunity to develop that leadership which has been talked about so much. We are proposing this year, not to act as doctors or to give prescriptions to the provinces, but to furnish them up to a certain point with the drug which is most expensive and which is most in use, I am informed, in the treatment of syphilis. We know that there are other drugs such as mercury, bismuth and one other the name of which escapes me. These also are of some use, but I am informed that the arsenicals are more important and they cost more.
Before coming to the house with this proposal to distribute arsenicals on the basis of population and the number of treatments we consulted the provinces to ascertain exactly the number of treatments that had been given in each of them and what amount of money

was expended in connection therewith. I find that the amount spent in connection with the giving of arsenicals in the various provinces was $63,478.


Mr. HANSON:: Has the minister got that by provinces?


Charles Gavan Power: I have it by provinces, but I have reason to believe that perhaps the figures are not exactly accurate in so far as they relate to British Columbia. Either the telegram sent by the department to the department in British Columbia was misunderstood, or else there is some error in the figures. It would appear that British Columbia spent on arsenicals in the past year $15,050. The expenditures in the other provinces were: Alberta, $1,900; Saskatchewan, $2,600; Manitoba, $3,423; Ontario, $16,000; Quebec, $20,000; New Brunswick, $1,000; Nova Scotia, $2,300; Prince Edward Island, $1,205. There would seem to be an error with respect to British Columbia because I find that in that province there are only two clinics and they spent $15,000 whereas in Ontario there are nineteen clinics and the expenditure is $16,000; and in Quebec twenty-two clinics with an expenditure of $20,000. Moreover, the population of Ontario, wherein $16,000 was spent, is about seven times that of British Columbia where $15,000 was spent; and with all due respect to the opinion that there are a large number of transients going through British Columbia I hardly think that that would account for the discrepancy in the figures. However, $63,000 was the amount spent in the whole of Canada for arsenicals.


Mr. GREEN:: Perhaps the work in British Columbia has been developed further than in the other provinces.


Charles Gavan Power: I am informed that that is not so. It is developed to a greater extent in Ontario and Quebec.


Olof Hanson: Will the minister give the number of cases in each province?


Charles Gavan Power: The division for the ensuing year, 1938-39, as between the provinces will be on the basis of population combined with the number of treatments for syphilis during the year 1936, which is the last available year. These are the treatments in the various provinces in 1936:
Prince Edward Island	 809
Nova Scotia	 7,904
New Brunswick	 16,024
Quebec	 112,161
Ontario	 92,656
Manitoba	 12,800
Saskatchewan	 10,414
Alberta	 26,070
British Columbia	 16,907

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Of course, division on the basis of population works along the same lines. The total of treatments for 1936 in the whole of Canada was 296,408.


Mr. McNIVEN:: Is that for all types of venereal disease?


Charles Gavan Power: legislation to control infection of others, both directly and indirectly; financial contributions by the central government to the local public health authorities. Sweden claims that on the whole the results were favourable of the legislation dealing with compulsory notification and so on. Canada I am afraid will not find it so satisfactory. All the provinces shortly after 1919 placed on their statute books legislation of varying degrees of severity in order to prevent the spread of venereal disease. I am informed that, although there have been prosecutions and even convictions in certain provinces, the law has to a large extent become a dead letter. The law with respect to compulsory notification has not been carried out to anything like the full extent. The law with respect to compulsory treatment is largely confined now to those who come before the criminal courts or who are in penal institutions. Outside of that these Draconian laws passed in 1919 are to a considerable extent a dead letter. However, Sweden I believe found very much the same results from their campaign as have been found in Canada. I do not wish to take time to give all the details with respect to Sweden and comparisons of their experience with that of Canada; suffice it to say that apparently the results were about the same. Perhaps Sweden is more proud of it than is Canada, particularly since, as has often been repeated, the Canadian government gave up the work in 1931.
I have here a statement showing the number of admissions for syphilis reported at clinics in the five year period between 1932 and 1936. The figures are as follows for all Canada:
1932		 9,730
1933		 9,408
1934		 7,178
1935		 6,241
1936		 5,832
There was a considerable drop in the number of new admissions for syphilis during that period.
The same results were perhaps not attained with respect to gonorrhoea, where there has not been the same decrease in new admissions to hospitals. During the course of the discussion much was made of the influence of syphilis on the state of the mind, and the number of persons suffering from venereal diseases who afterwards became the inmates of mental institutions. Whilst I am not at all prepared to contradict any of the figures which have been given, perhaps it would be interesting to note the figures I have received from the bureau of statistics for the year 1936. These figures are given for all Canada.

The total number of first admissions to mental hospitals from 1932 to 1935 inclusive was 6,932. Of these there were 392 cases of general paralysis from syphilis, and 17 attributable to cerebral syphilis, making a total of 409. That is a percentage of 5-9 of all admissions. During the same period 7-4 per cent of the patients in mental hospitals died from general paralysis, and 0-7 per cent from cerebral syphilis. These appear to be the figures given by the bureau of statistics. I am told that the discharges from recoveries in mental cases from mental hospitals using modern methods reach as high as fifty per cent.


James Joseph McCann: Is the minister including all cases which have arisen as a result of syphilis?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes, all cases. The fifty per cent covers all cases, including those resulting from syphilis.
Some time ago when the house was discussing statements the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre read from a book entitled Social Work and Legislation in Sweden, and detailed a lengthy list of services which had been carried on in that country. His suggestion was that we should do something similar in Canada, and he was very critical of the government and of the department because the work had not been done. Again this afternoon he referred to Sweden.
During the course of the earlier debate to which I have referred I did not have the time to discuss conditions in Sweden or what Sweden has been doing along social lines, as compared with Canada. But in order to show that Canada is doing a great deal in the way of health legislation it might be well to put certain figures on Hansard. When we speak about work in Canada towards the advancement of health we do not necessarily refer only to the federal government. It carries on only a very small portion of the work. A great many people believe there is some overlapping, and that we should do none of it.
In the following table I shall set out the figures for Sweden and Canada in connection with certain social work, where the suggestion had been made that Sweden is far ahead of us.
Sweden: Accident insurance, 2,400,000 kronor or $600,000 or 9 cents per capita.
Canada: Accident insurance (workmen's compensation), $13,380,000 or $1.20 per capita. Sweden: Sickness insurance, 13,000,000 kronor or $3,250,000 or 50 cents per capita.
Canada: Sickness insurance-Nil.
Sweden: Pension insurance, 55,900,000 kronor or $13,975,000 or $2.15 per capita.

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Canada: Soldiers pensions, $47,786,123.51-42 cents per capita.
Old age pensions, $21,520,302.66-$1.95 per capita.
Total-$09,306,426.17 or $2.37 per capita. (Widows' pensions and superannuation of civil servants not included.)
Sweden: Assistance to blind, 1,700,000 kronor or $425,000 or 6 cents per capita.
Canada: Pensions to blind-Nil-Act not passed until 1936.
Sweden: Poor relief and child welfare, 3,700,000 kronor or $925,000 or 14 cents per capita. Canada: Charitable and benevolent institutions - (These include homes for adults and children, orphanages, children's aid societies, juvenile immigration societies, institutes for the deaf, dumb and blind and day nurseries), $9,120,593 or 82 cents per capita.
Sweden: Workers' protection, labour exchanges, social board, etc., 2,600,000 kronor or $650,000 or 10 cents per capita.
Canada: Workers' protection, labour exchanges, etc.-No figures available.
Sweden: Unemployment (including unemployment insurance), 54,200,000 kronor or $13,550,000 or $2.08 per capita.
Canada: No	insurance-unemployment relief
cost dominion government alone, 850,201,000 or $4.56 per capita.
Sweden: Public health and care of the sick, 38,300,000 kronor or $9,575,000 or $1.40 per capita.
Canada: Public health, $7,000,000-66 cents per capita.
Hospitalization of sick, $46,500,000-$4.15 per capita.
Hospitalization of mental cases, $10,938,882- $1 per capita.
Total of health and hospitalization, $64,438,882 or $5.81 per capita.
Sweden: Reformatories (care of vagrants and inebriates, 1,900,000 kronor or $475,000 or 7 cents per capita.
Canada: Penal institutions (dominion, provincial and municipal), $4,921,641 or 44 cents per capita.
Sweden: Other social purposes, 4,100,000 kronor or $1,025,000 or 16 cents per capita.
Canada: Expenditures of voluntary organizations, $1,818,279.02.
Dominion grants to voluntary organizations,

Total-(calendar year 1937), $1,920,479.02 or 17 cents per capita.
Sweden: Cost of living bonuses, petty expenses, etc., 2,200,000 kronor or $550,000 or 8 cents per capita.
Canada: Cost of living bonuses, etc.-Nil.
Total expenditure Sweden-180,000,000 kronor or $45,000,000.
Total expenditure Canada-$213,289,021.19.
Summary: The above figures do not represent the total expenditures for health and social services in Sweden and Canada. The total figures for Sweden in the year 1932-33 are given as 350,000,000 kronor or $87,500,000 -a per capita expenditure of $11.85. The figures shown above for Canada, namely, $213,-289.021.19-a per capita expenditure of $15.37
-do not cover exactly the same services as those indicated for Sweden, but serve only for the purpose of rough comparison.
So that taking Canada by and large, it would seem that we do a great deal for health. I would be the last to say that we should not enlarge our services, and the last to say that I would not like to have a great many millions of dollars to spend on health services in Canada. There are other diseases which must be considered and which must receive the attention of the federal parliament and the legislatures. The total number of deaths in Canada in 1936 amounted to 106,617, and the general death rate was 9-7 per 1,000 of population. The following table will set out the diseases, the number of deaths and the rate per 100,000 of population:
	Deaths	Rate per 100.000 of population
Heart disease	.. 16,361	148-5Cancer	11,652	105-8Pneumonia	.. 7,266	65-8Tuberculosis	.. 6,745	61-2Kidneys	.. 6,734	61 [DOT] 1Influenza	3,096	28-0Syphilis	.. death	rate 5-3
There are other diseases, apart from this particular group, which need the attention of all health authorities of Canada. A beginning has been made in the distribution of these arsenicals to the provinces, and it is my hope that it will be possible to carry on the campaign with greater vigour in another year.


James Joseph McCann: Has this matter been taken up with the several provincial health departments?


Charles Gavan Power: It will be taken up at the dominion council of health which meets in June.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Food and drugs, $155,995.
Mr. MacNEIL:: I have in my hand a copy of the regulations that were issued under the Food and Drugs Act, as authorized by order in council of August 16, 1934. Page 29, section 8, subsections 3 and 4, have to do with the purity of flour and bleached flour. These regulations refer to the processing of flour in the milling industry. Just recently I secured a copy of the new regulations in English and French which have been placed in circulation, and I notice that these two paragraphs have been deleted. The order in council which authorized that deletion was circulated in the French language but not in the English.


Charles Gavan Power: Do I understand my hon. friend to say that the order in council was circulated in French and not in English?
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Charles Grant MacNeil: It was only with the French copy that I received a copy of the order in council, also in French.


Charles Gavan Power: I understood nay hon. friend to say it was circulated only in the one language.


Charles Grant MacNeil: I had to make a special request to the department to secure a copy of the order in council because it was not included with the copy of the regulations circulated in the English language.


Charles Gavan Power: When was that?


Charles Grant MacNeil: Just within the last month.


Charles Gavan Power: The order in council was passed only on March 24, so I suppose it had not been printed.


Charles Grant MacNeil: I should like to direct attention to this order in council which reads:
His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Pensions and National Health, is pleased to amend the regulations under the Food and Drugs Act, established by order in council of the 16th August, 1934, P.C. 123/1852, and they are hereby amended as follows:
Subsections 3 and 4 of section VIII-grain products are hereby deleted and subsections 5 to 15 of the above section are renumbered 3 to 13.
The subsections deleted by this amendment were as follows:
3.	Flour shall be the fine, clean sound produce made by bolting wheat meal, and shall contain _ not more than thirteen and five-tenths (13-5) per cent of moisture, not less than one and twentydive hundredths (il-25) per cent of organic nitrogen, nor more than two (2) parts per million of nitrite reacting nitrogen, not more than one (I) per cent of ash, and not more than fifty hundredths (0-50) per cent of fibre.
4.	Bleached flour shall be flour which has undergone processing for the purposes of making it lighter in colour. The residual nitrite reacting nitrogen shall not exceed five (5) parts per million. The presence of more than two (2) parts per million of nitrite reacting nitrogen in flour shall be held to be proof of its having been bleached by oxides of nitrogen.
Note.-Nitrite reacting nitrogen shall be calculated as sodium nitrite (NaN02) which for the purposes of this definition shall be identical with nitrogen.
These subsections dealing with the purity of flour or bleached flour have been deleted from the regulations. I am concerned with the reason for the deletion of these subsections. I want to know whether it means that the consumers are to be deprived of the protection formerly extended to them with respect to the purity of flour or bleached flour. What is the explanation for the deletion of these important subsections in the regulations?


Charles Gavan Power: This is a somewhat technical question and has involved considerable controversy in the past. Some time in 1935, I think it was, the department instructed certain of the millers that they were no longer to use potassium bromate in flour. Representations were made, and there seems to have been some confusion as to just what was the final decision. There appears to be nothing on the files of the department to the effect that permission was granted to the millers generally to use potassium bromate. I do not just know how it came about, but in any case the first I heard of it was that a decision of the department apparently had been given that potassium bromate was not to be used. This was brought to my attention by the manager of the Maple Leaf Milling Company who called attention to the fact that other companies were using this improver. He wanted to know why his company could not do likewise, which was a reasonable request. Upon inquiry I found that the departmental officials were of the opinion that it should be prohibited. The other millers asked for a hearing before any definite decision was reached.
We invited the millers to come to Ottawa to discuss the matter. At that conference the Maple Leaf Milling Company stated that they had no objection to this improver being added to the flour, provided they were allowed to use it as well as were the other millers. The matter was discussed with the officials of the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Trade and Commerce, which latter department has a real interest in the sale of Canadian wheat. After considerable study I came to the conclusion that the use of infinitesimal quantities of potassium bromate was not deleterious to human health. This improver is being used to an unlimited extent by the bakers because we have no control over its use by them. However, we had automatically excluded its use by the millers who had been using other improvers of a non-deleterious nature for a number of years. It was pointed out to us, to the point of conviction in so far as I was concerned, that [DOT]there was no reason why it should not be used except for the fact that its use was forbidden by the regulation. I thought, I suppose because I am not overly fond of regulations, just because they are regulations, that it would be just as well to do away with it.
Then it was pointed out that in competition with other countries, particularly in our export trade to hot countries, we were at a

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disadvantage. In the United States there are no restrictions whatever on the use of improvers of that kind. United States flour competes with ours and gets the advantage of us in countries like Cuba, West Africa and other countries. Great Britain, after studying the matter, decided not to prevent the use of improvers. France, having studied it, came to the conclusion -that improvers should not be used. Mr. Geddes, expert in grain chemistry, in the research laboratory of the board of grain commissioners, gave his opinion that no harm would be done to Canadian wheat and that the sale of Canadian wheat would not be injured by any decision which we might arrive at with respect to the matter. Mr. Aitken, assistant expert in grain chemistry, in the grain research laboratory of the board, gave his opinion that not only was potassium bromate not deleterious to humans but that it might certainly improve the flour to allow bromate to be added. In the face of these decisions I came to the conclusion that there was no harm in allowing it to be used.
The next question asked was, Would it be necessary to amend our regulations? Had we done so, we should have had to add to the regulation read by my hon. friend a moment ago-the regulation that reads:
Flour shall contain not more than thirteen and five-tenths (13'5) per cent of moisture, not less than one and twenty-five hundredths (1-25) per cent of organic nitrogen, nor more than two (2) parts per million of nitrite reacting nitrogen, not more than one (1) per cent of ash, and not more than fifty hundredths (0-50) per cent of fibre.
It would have been necessary to add:
And not more than such a percentage of bromate, and not more than certain other ingredients which from time immemorial have been mixed with flour.
So it would have made a definition which would have included practically everything. We therefore thought it advisable to repeal the regulation altogether, but in order to protect the public we have sections of the act which give ample power to the department to prosecute and punish anyone who sells food which might be deleterious to humans. Section 4 of the act, which deals with adulteration, and certain other sections give us ample power. There is no danger whatsoever that we have forfeited any of our powers under the act.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Unless that section of the act is given effect to in regulations, it would appear that the situation now is that the milling industry may introduce an adulterant in a staple that appears on every family table, while some doubt exists as to whether it is deleterious for human consumption. I do
not wish to arouse any false alarms, but it is a well established principle that we should not permit adulterants of any sort in flour. I am well aware that potassium bromate as a salt is used in flour in very small quantities to stabilize or accelerate the action of the yeast, and that if used in excessive quantities it would probably result in the fermentation getting beyond control. But I am reliably informed by medical men, and I must take their advice because I am not a medical man myself, that the case with regard to the use of potassium bromate is not proven one way or the other. There is considerable evidence to show that the use of this salt in flour, or introduced as an improver in compounds used by bakers, is injurious to the workers in the industry because it gives rise to certain skin disorders. There is also evidence to show that when the flour is consumed, particularly by people who may be susceptible to certain skin diseases, it does tend to aggravate skin disorders or induce more serious consequences. I contend that the same result in proper action of the yeast would be secured by a more careful blending of the grains. I think it is extremely unwise that a well established monopoly such as we have in the baking and milling industry should influence departmental policy in this regard and should secure the right to introduce a questionable-I think that is the least one can say of it-improver or adulterant when there is the slightest degree of risk to those who consume the bread, and when there is definite risk to the workers in the industry who are exposed to the action of the salt. I would earnestly urge the minister to reconsider his position in the matter and to re-enact regulations which will establish definite standards of purity in connection with the use of a product that is of such importance in all households.


Charles Gavan Power: So far as the effect on the health of the workers is concerned, I freely admit that this had not been brought to my attention before; but fortunately last year the house was kind enough to give me a little money to set up a division of industrial hygiene, and this question will give the new division something to do. They can look into it, and if I find after their investigations that the use of this improver has some injurious effect on the health of those employed in the industry I shall be only too glad to see what we can do to change the conditions.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Has the minister not
been advised that among medical men there is a difference of opinion on the subject?
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Charles Gavan Power: Oh, yes, I am aware of
that.


Charles Grant MacNeil: And that some medical
men hold the opinion that potassium bromate is injurious.


Charles Gavan Power: But it is not definitely
established.


Mr. BARBER:: I understand that a considerable percentage of soya bean meal is used by bakers to-day. Would that be considered an adulterant?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


Charles Grant MacNeil: What is the present policy for protecting the public against the use of adulterants? Is it the blanket authority of the act?


Charles Gavan Power: It is not a blanket authority. Section 4 of the act states:
Food shall be deemed to be adulterated within the meaning of this act
(a)	if any substance has been mixed with it so as to reduce or lower or injuriously affect its quality or strength;
(b)	if any inferior or cheaper substance has been substituted wholly or in part for the article;
Then section 4 (f) states:
(f)	if it contains any added poisonous ingredient, or any ingredient which may render it injurious to the health of the person consuming it, whether added with intent or otherwise; or
(g)	if its strength or purity falls below the standard-
That is, below the standard we have laid down. So there is ample authority to prosecute anybody who sells any fraudulent products under the act.


Charles Grant MacNeil: May I ask if any action will be taken against the milling industry for the use of potassium bromate?


Charles Gavan Power: Not at the moment; it is tolerated.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Or to regulate the percentage of potassium bromate that may be used in flour for export, particularly to the West Indies, where the percentage used is higher.


Charles Gavan Power: They are watching it very carefully. Overdosage ruins the bread and does not give the effect they are looking for.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Opium and narcotic drugs, $50,780.
Charles Grant MacNeil: Have steps been taken to secure uniformity of regulations throughout the various provinces with regard to the sale

of well known sedatives such as are marketed under the trade names of luminal, nembutal and pheno-barbital derivatives.


Charles Gavan Power: That was discussed at the health council, and we are endeavouring to have the same kind of legislation applicable generally.


Mr. STIRLING:: What progress is being made with respect to illicit traffic in the ports of British Columbia? Is any improvement indicated?


Charles Gavan Power: That is a difficult question to answer. I cannot say whether there is any improvement, but we had some very successful prosecutions last year. There were five Japanese, or there was a ring including five Japanese-I believe there were two Canadians in with them-that had been remarkably successful in smuggling narcotics into Canada. They were caught, and a number of them were sentenced to gaol. I am informed that the price of illicit drugs is now higher in British Columbia than it has ever been. This indicates that we are doing something to control the traffic.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quarantine and leprosy, including contribution of $1,000 to the International Bureau of Public Health, $162,065.
Grote Stirling: I see there is a slight increase. Would the minister tell us whether the control of leprosy is entirely in the hands of his department or whether he has collaboration from the coast provinces?


Charles Gavan Power: It is entirely in the hands of the department. It comes under the Leprosy Act. As my hon. friend knows, there are two stations. I understand there are three patients at Bentinck island, British Columbia, and some at Tracadie.


Harry James Barber: How many lepers are there?


Charles Gavan Power: There are three at Bentinck, on the Pacific coast, and seven at Tracadie, on the Atlantic coast.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Laboratory of hygiene, $70,610.
Harry James Barber: Where is the laboratory located?


Charles Gavan Power: Here in Ottawa.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration medical inspection, $111,160.
Mr. HEAPS:: How many immigration
medical inspectors have we now; where are

Supply-National Health
they located and how many immigrants did they examine last year who proceeded to this country?


Charles Gavan Power: We have one at Antwerp, one at Hamburg, one at Paris, and two in London; then we make use of panel doctors throughout Great Britain; and there are twelve medical inspectors in Canada.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How many immigrants who came to Canada were examined last year by these medical men?


Charles Gavan Power: I would point out to my hon. friend that they do more than examine immigrants. As is well known, the doctors at the Canadian ports have to examine the ships generally; all passengers have to go through some form of examination. I do not meian that they undergo a very severe medical examination, 'but the passengers have to be looked over, at least, from the medical standpoint. The total of immigrants medically examined, including points in the British isles, Paris, Antwerp, Hamburg, including Gydnia, numbered: 1933-34, 5,814; 1934-35, 5,765; 193536, 5,775; 1936-37, 6,407. And upon arriving at Canadian ports about the same numbers were examined, namely, 1933-34, 5,278; 193435, 5,323; 1935-36, 4,972; 1936-37, 6,072. A certain number were classed as prohibited. In 1936-37 the number was 305, and at Canadian ports, forty-one. One hundred and sixty-two were prohibited entry.


Grote Stirling: Were any of the
immigrants who were medically examined on the other side of the Atlantic subsequently turned back on arrival at Canadian ports?


Charles Gavan Power: My information is that there were forty-one.


Grote Stirling: How would that arise?


Charles Gavan Power: Well, it has happened very often in the past. I am well aware of the controversy which has been going on for many years in Canada as to why we should have examinations both in Europe and in Canada, but it has happened very frequently that people who were passed by our doctors on the other side have had to be rejected by our doctors here. Just why, I do not know. I am informed that sometimes there has been substitution. So now we have to examine both the photograph on the passport and the man who is supposed to correspond with it. Our people must see that in any case he looks something like his passport photograph, although that is very difficult, as my hon. friend well knows.


Grote Stirling: Are Japanese immigrants examined before they leave Japan?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know of any case where we have had anything to do with the examination. I do not think they have ever asked us to do it.


Grote Stirling: Well, upon arrival at Vancouver or Victoria?


Charles Gavan Power: We have no medical man in Japan. I suppose the immigrants are examined, as anybody else is, upon arrival.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Do they get the same examination as people who come here from the continent of Europe?


Charles Gavan Power: The Japanese?


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes.


Charles Gavan Power: I assume so. They do not get it before sailing. We have no medical examiner in Japan.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I know something of the
strictness of the examinations which sometimes take place both on the continent of Europe and in London. I have known people who were rejected and who subsequently came here and were pronounced physically sound in every respect. Of course I understand that mistakes can happen. But I want to know if the same thing happens on the Pacific coast as on the Atlantic.


Charles Gavan Power: I am informed that the
examination is the same. I do not know how such an incident as that mentioned by the hon. member could happen.


Grote Stirling: Would the minister consider the advisability of having a Canadian doctor to conduct examinations in Japan, or of employing a Canadian doctor who may be resident there?


Charles Gavan Power: I am sorry, but I did not follow the debates on Japanese immigration closely enough to know just how many came in from Japan. I do not think there were more than seventy-five, were there?


Mr. REID:: One hundred and fifty-five.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know that we
should keep a doctor in that country to examine so small a number. The original idea of placing our medical men in Europe was to facilitate immigration-not that I think they are doing so at the present time. But the purpose was to make it easier for people to be medically examined upon arrival in Canada.


Charles Avery Dunning: And because of the hardship involved in their being sent back.


Charles Gavan Power: I think it was largely due to the representations of the shipping people.
Supply-National Health

At one time the immigration authorities made the steamship company pay a heavy fine when they brought anyone to Canada who was rejected.


Grote Stirling: They had to take them back for nothing.


Charles Gavan Power: I believe the churches and other bodies also made representations.


Harry James Barber: Are the same regulations applied at ports of entry from the United States?


Charles Gavan Power: No; we have no examination at all.


Harry James Barber: No examination?


Abraham Albert Heaps: These regulations apply only to persons seeking permanent entry.


Charles Gavan Power: The ship has to be cleared just the same. It is not a close physical examination, but the ship must be cleared.


Grote Stirling: Does that mean that there is no examination on the United States line?


Charles Gavan Power: The customs officer has a look at the man coming in, and if there is any doubt a doctor who is on schedule of fees is called in.


Harry James Barber: I have known of persons coming from the United States with the intention of taking up residence and, not being able to produce a medical certificate, they were turned back.


Charles Gavan Power: The immigration department must be satisfied; if not, they call in a doctor, at our expense presumably, to see whether the person is in sufficiently good health to be admitted. We have no doctors stationed at any port of entry in the United States.


Abraham Albert Heaps: It would apply only to people from the United States seeking permanent entry?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Not to tourists?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Child and maternal hygiene, $17,770.
James Joseph McCann: What progress is being made in the establishment of this division?


Charles Gavan Power: It took some little time to have the establishment ready. After the vote was passed, the positions of chief of the branch and assistants had to be advertised.

They were advertised some time in September or October, and Doctor Couture was appointed as chief of the division and Mrs. Chasse of Ottawa as sociologist. A technical advisory committee was formed, and there was a joint meeting in Ottawa on April 13 and 14 to deliberate on matters affecting child and maternal hygiene. The meeting was under the direction of Doctor Couture, and a very large number of scientific persons, mostly medical men and others interested in that field of social welfare, were invited.


James Joseph McCann: April of this year?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


James Joseph McCann: When was the appointment made?


Charles Gavan Power: In October. This was a
meeting of the advisory board, but a certain amount of work had already been done. The division is taking part in a survey of mortality in child and maternal cases in Manitoba. This survey is being made by the provincial health authorities of that province in conjunction with the Rockefeller Foundation and with the assistance of the federal department. Mrs. Chasse of our staff is in Manitoba, and in charge of the work there, at the request of the Manitoba government, is Doctor Margaret Parkes of our staff.


James Joseph McCann: I see there is provision for professional and special services, $5,000. What is that?


Charles Gavan Power: That is for studies such as the one in progress in Manitoba.


James Joseph McCann: In addition to the regular set-up?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


Harry James Barber: Was the full amount voted last year expended?


Charles Gavan Power: No; there was unexpended the sum of $10,876.75 out of $14,000.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I am in accord with this
item, but I am wondering to what extent there may be overlapping between the federal department and some of the provincial governments and municipalities. In each of the municipalities there is a great deal of this sort of work, and I should like to know whether the federal department is trying to coordinate the various activities of the provincial governments in this direction, or whether this work is simply supplementary.


Charles Gavan Power: As a matter of fact we
do try to coordinate all the activities, but in this particular instance it was decided at

Supply-National Health
the request of the provinces that we should form a central organization in Ottawa to deal with child and maternal welfare, to obtain information to assist the provinces in their researches, and generally to be a sort of clearing-house. Recently, when Manitoba decided to undertake certain work it could not do it alone, and we took the view that Manitoba would be an ideal cross-section of Canada, so that in order to get this information on mortality we thought it would be an excellent opportunity for us to join with the province. They are doing some of the work through their own staff, and we have also some members of our staff there. It is a joint undertaking in consequence of which we expect to have valuable information which we can distribute among other provinces.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Epidemiology, $14,770.
Grote Stirling: Here is one of those
instances which I am not able to understand under the new system of preparing the estimates. In this one there is an amount, "voted but not utilized," of $4,000. In the last one I understood the minister to say that there was unexpended something like $10,000, which does not so appear. In fact, it very seldom does appear, and yet apparently on frequent occasions it has not all been expended.


Charles Gavan Power: I was not sure myself
what that term, "voted but not utilized" meant. I have an explanation, but I would Tather have the Minister of Finance explain it.


Charles Avery Dunning: This is the first occasion on which the estimates have been presented in the new form, and in adjusting the [DOT]details of what was last year a bulk vote for a series of services among the various accounts which this year become separate votes, the situation to which my hon. friend refers arises. It will not occur in the future, because in the future we shall be making comparisons between comparable things. I may tell my hon. friend that it took nearly six months' work to get the estimates into this form, which I think hon. members will agree is a tremendous improvement from the standpoint of conveying information as to details. That is the reason for discrepancies of this sort.


Grote Stirling: Yes; I modified my
language in regard to it, because I think, when we get accustomed to it, this will be a much more intelligible way of presenting the estimates. I notice all the way through that there are far fewer references now than under the old method with regard to money not expended in the previous year.


Charles Gavan Power: Nearly all these items we have been quoting this afternoon were bulked in one vote in another year, so it is very difficult to make the proper division.


Harry James Barber: What part of the $15,400 voted was spent last year?


Charles Gavan Power: The amount spent was
$3,500; there is $11,860 unexpended.


James Joseph McCann: What work, if any, has
this department done with reference to the outbreak of poliomyelitis in Canada last year? Or is it proposed to make an exhaustive study of that branch of epidemiology?


Charles Gavan Power: The epidemiologist of the department has approached the Canadian Medical Council asking them to make a study and put the result of their study in book form. When that has been done, with full details, enabling medical men throughout the country more easily to diagnose the disease and setting out the most efficacious form of treatment which can be given in an emergency, it will be printed in pamphlet form; and the department has undertaken to distribute it among all doctors in Canada. So far I think that is about all we have done with that disease.


James Joseph McCann: Is the department doing any research work in this particular line?


Charles Gavan Power: We are doing field studies in other lines, but not in this.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.	%
Publicity and health education, $17,024.
James Joseph McCann: What advance has been
made in the setting up of this branch?


Charles Gavan Power: The civil service commission appointed a man yesterday.


James Joseph McCann: This should be a very
important branch of the department of national health, because the publicity given throughout the country to the methods of treatment and the facilities which are available in regard to diagnosis and treatment of disease is an important factor. Last year in the neighbourhood of Quebec city quite a number of children were afflicted with diphtheria. That should not happen; it is absolutely a preventable disease, and it is only a matter of education and of using the facilities we have to make it so that no child should die of diphtheria. I have come to the conclusion that the reason why so many children died of diphtheria in Quebec province and the region of the city of Quebec last year was lack of public education regarding what can be done for that disease.

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I see a great field for this publicity branch, and although the man was appointed only yesterday I would say, let him start to work on Monday spreading education throughout these areas.


Grote Stirling: Whom will this man educate?


Charles Gavan Power: You and me and all of us; the public. We need it.


Grote Stirling: How?


Charles Gavan Power: By radio talks, through the newspapers, and so on.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Would not the case just referred to be one in which the provincial government should step in first, before the federal government attempts to do anything? The federal government might be accused of violating provincial rights. While I should be sorry to see any part of the country, especially that so close to the constituency represented by the minister himself, suffering from preventable disease, I think we can leave the matter to the minister.


Charles Gavan Power: We shall issue uniform pamphlets so that the people of Quebec will be no more ignorant than those of Winnipeg or other parts of Canada.


Harry James Barber: What was expended out of this vote last year?


Charles Gavan Power: Nothing. We obtained our man only yesterday. It took the civil service commission a year to get him.


Harry James Barber: Who is the man?


Charles Gavan Power: His name was announced
in the paper before I heard it-F. Rowse.


James Joseph McCann: What was the cause of the delay in making the appointment? It took the commission six months to select a man for a very important branch of public service, for which there must have been plenty of men available. I understand there were some 200 applications. It is a crying shame that it should have taken six months to make this appointment.


Charles Gavan Power: I think we got authority from the treasury board some time about July, and asked the civil service commission to advertise. They advertised throughout Canada. There were over 200 applicants, of whom thirty-five were returned soldiers. All others than these were eliminated; then the examining board or rating board composed of seven or eight gentlemen from Ottawa with a man from the civil service commission started to eliminate, and I think, after discussion, they concluded that the best thing was to give a 
written examination. It took some little time to decide on the subject matter of the examination; then the papers were sent out; I think they were asked to write a paper on poliomyelitis and various other things. When the papers came in they had to be examined; I understand the number was reduced to two or three candidates, and finally the appointment was announced in the paper before I knew of it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 100, for the relief of Gerda Ellen Morrison.-Mr. MacLean (Prince).
Bill No. 101, for the relief of Hilda Elsa Naeke Schneider.-Mr. Heaps.
Bill No. 102, for the relief of Margaret Robinson Mathieson Megee.-Mr. Heaps.
Bill No. 103, for the relief of Rachel Tencer Silberger.-Mr. Lawson.
Bill No. 104, for the relief of George Brunet.-Mr. Jacobs.
Bill No. 113, for the relief of Mary Elizabeth Fletcher Meigs Ballantyne.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 114, for the relief of Ada Alice Burns.-Mr. Thompson.
Bill No. 115, for the relief of Marjorie Isabel Meldrum Andersen.-Mr. Emmerson.
Bill No. 116, for the relief of Alice Pearl Shaver Booth.-Mr. Jacobs.
Bill No. 117, for the relief of Mary Grace French Clarke.-Mr. Jacobs.
Bill No. 118, for the relief of John Gerard Ahern.-Mr. Hill.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Before you report the bills, Mr. Chairman, I desire to direct attention to this fact. My memory is that the court of last resort in our country has decided that domicile is a matter of domicile in the provinces, and not in the dominion. These bills all indicate that persons had domicile in Canada. The judgment of the court at least in one case was that there could not be any such thing as domicile in Canada; that domicile is domicile in a province, in any province. I mention this only to prevent hereafter any idea that we have entirely overlooked that question of domicile.

Privy Council Appeals


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: But the fact that they are domiciled in any one of the provinces gives jurisdiction to this parliament.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is only a question of the allegation that they are domiciled in Canada; that is the only question I raise.
Bills reported, read the third time and passed.



SECOND READING

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 121, to incorporate the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of Hudson's Bay.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. K. ESLING (Kootenay West) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 12, to amend the Copyright Amendment Act, 1931.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, April 8, consideration of the motion of Mr. Cahan for the second reading of Bill No. 19, respecting appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, this bill is of the utmost importance because of its subject matter. It was discussed in the house at a special sitting and has received considerable interest throughout the country. I have been advised that various law associations have appointed committees to consider this matter and to study all the arguments that have been brought forth by my hon. friend and others.


Mr. CAHAN:: Including my right hon. friend.


Ernest Lapointe: I wonder if I could not suggest to my hon. friend that he first let public opinion digest this matter; let these various bodies which are particularly interested have time to consider the various aspects of this question and then reintroduce this bill at the next session? I can promise him that he will have my full support at that time as he has to-day.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Mr. Speaker, I agree entirely with
51952-210J
the right hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) that this is an important bill. Judging from the correspondence that I have received from one end of the country to the other it has given rise to serious reflection and considerable discussion. Communications which come to me are more likely to be favourable to the bill than otherwise, but I must say that I have found a strong opinion in various parts of the country in favour of the measure. However, I agree entirely with the suggestion that more time should be given for study and reflection and that it would be most inopportune to press this measure through at this session of parliament. If Providence spares my life until the next session, I shall probably consult with my right hon. friend-


Ernest Lapointe: There is no doubt about that.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: -and possibly I may be able to persuade him to reintroduce a similar bill on behalf of the government. If not, I shall reserve the right to introduce a similar bill myself at the next session. With the consent of the house, I would move that this bill be withdrawn from the order paper.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Before this matter is finally disposed of, I should like to indicate that I had proposed to make a few observations which I shall not now make.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I am sorry; I did not know that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am very glad not to
make them. However, there is one suggestion I should like to make to the right hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe), which he probably will not favourably entertain. It has been the view of distinguished statesmen in the British Empire for many years that having regard to the possibilities of differences between the various dominions and the United Kingdom, which occupies a place similar to that of a dominion in the British Commonwealth of Nations, there should be some tribunal created by common consent to deal with these matters. This tribunal could be considered the court of last resort under the same conditions for all the dominions, including the United Kingdom itself, in which the court of last resort is the House of Lords. This court, constituted by common consent, would have as members representatives from every part of the commonwealth.
This view was put forward quite strongly by distinguished statesmen some twenty-five years ago. Certain steps were taken looking to that end, but because of the pressure of business in other directions, nothing was
Privy Council Appeals

done. It will be perhaps within the memory of the right hon. gentleman that discussion did take place at more than one imperial conference, but the pressure of other matters regarded as being of more importance at that particular time prevented any concrete action from being taken. I think this thought should be in the mind of everyone who has to do with this matter. When differences arose between the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland with respect to boundaries, it will be remembered that a justice of the supreme court of South Africa was called in. The problem of dealing with differences between the various parts of the commonwealth has become very apparent on one or two occasions. For instance, when we dealt with the Newfoundland matter, it was an arbitration, not a case in court. The privy council acted as arbitrators in dealing with that matter, and the arguments presented were presented to that tribunal as an arbitral tribunal, not as a court of last resort.
I think it is desirable that we should study the question as to whether or not it would be possible, by common consent, to create a great court that would indeed be a court of last resort, alike for the people of England, the people of Australia, the people of New Zealand and the people of Canada, for a certain class of question, not all obviously, but certain types of questions that might be dealt with. It will be remembered that Australia has imposed a limitation on the cases that can go to the privy council from that country, and the same applies with respect to other parts of the commonwealth. I am not urging it at all, but I think it is a matter that is worthy of careful consideration before we dispose of the question which is at issue in the measure that is before the house.


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, any suggestion of my right hon. friend (Mr. Bennett) on a matter of this kind deserves, of course, the most careful and serious consideration, and I can assure him and the house that such will be given. But if I understand him aright, the suggestion would involve the creation of a court of appeal for the whole commonwealth. As he has stated, this was argued many years ago and was supported by a body of opinion in some parts of the commonwealth; but at every conference at which the matter has been discussed in my presence and in which I have participated, I must say that the trend of opinion was rather opposed ito such an imperial court of appeal. But in 1926, and if my memory serves me well, even in 1929, when the conference on dominion legislation met, the almost

unanimous view was in favour of some sort of arbitral tribunal, as my right hon. friend has indicated, for the purpose of sitting when there are difficulties between members of the commonwealth, as in the instance he mentioned. Such a tribunal could have been sitting, for example, in the difference between Canada and Newfoundland. There is much in favour of such a proposal. The idea was that the judges who would be called upon to sit on such a tribunal would be taken out of a panel representative of every dominion of the commonwealth, which would supply a certain number of names-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not unlike the world's court.


Ernest Lapointe: Exactly, and I myself spoke in favour of the proposal at that time. I can assure my right hon. friend that the suggestion will be given the most serious consideration.
Motion agreed to and bill withdrawn.



CRIMINAL CODE


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, May 13, consideration of the motion of Mr. Bertrand (Laurier) for the second reading of Bill No. 28, to amend the criminal code.
Mr. P. J. ROWE (Athabaska):: Mr. Speaker, I rise to take part in this debate because I am convinced, after careful consideration of the proposal to legalize sweepstakes for the alleged purpose of assisting hospitals and universities, that the appeal has nothing to commend it from any point of view, on either economic, political or moral grounds. On the contrary I regard it as utterly and completely fallacious by every test of logic and by the proof of historical fact. Of course, I do not for one moment question the good intentions of the hon. member who has moved the bill (Mr. Bertrand, Laurier), but I would remind him of the well known adage that the road to perdition is paved with good intentions.
The hon. member refers to the fact that some years ago in Vancouver a majority of persons voted in favour of a plebiscite which involved the idea of sweepstakes. Surely the hon. member does not suggest for a moment that the fact that a majority of the electors in Vancouver voted in favour of this idea was an endorsation of the principle, because I am unable to see any principle in it.
May I suggest to the hon. member another reason which these people had for voting

Criminal Code-k^jepstakes
for the idea of sweepstakes. The hon. member knows as do all hon. members of the house, that the majority of the people of this country are very poor. They live constantly in the shadow of a terror that clutches at their hearts, the fear of how to pay for rent and food and clothes and education for their children, and they often go to bed haunted by terrible nightmares of penniless old age, and those nightmares which concern young men and young women wandering hopelessly through the streets and roads of the country in a fruitless search for work,- those nightmares concerned with sickness and death without anyone to provide for their children.


Mr. BERTRAND (Laurier):: We have
very often been told that we are living in a happy country, and I always thought so myself.


Percy John Rowe: I should like to agree with the hon. member that we are living in a very happy country, but the evidence before me as I go through this country tells me another story altogether, and I am just telling that story as I see it.
I suggest that this proposal, like most of the shallow and superficial thinking which characterizes our present day leadership, is an attempt to rearrange the consequences of the deep-seated ills which afflict society rather than to discover and remove the causes. Men and women of all races and colours and creeds, as I have found them in my experience in the commercial life of Canada for twenty-five years, are naturally kind and good and decent, and it is contrary to the deepest instincts of humanity to want something for nothing or to live parasitieally off the labours of others. It is by their institutions alone that people become corrupt, and the responsibility for shaping and ordering these institutions nearer to the heart desires of humanity rests heavily upon the leaders of men. But if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
I suggest that the people of Vancouver voted for lotteries, not because they favoured the principle, because there is no principle, but because they live constantly in the shadow of the terror of poverty. What normal human being, living under conditions of heartsick, bitter poverty and frustration, does not long for that happy dream-world of freedom, security and contentment which the sudden possession of great wealth seems to offer. It matters not that, according to the most authentic figures which I have been able to gather, only one in three thousand ever receives a prize. Always in his dreams and prayers is the fond hope and longing that he may be that one.
But if the prize does come to such a lucky one, what of the other three thousand whose hopes can never be realized and whose dreams can never come true. If the prize winner has a reflective mind, he will soon realize that his suddenly acquired fortune has not been gained by either honesty, industry, thrift, or any virtue whatsoever; nor has he contributed a single thing to the community by way of the creation of useful or consumable new wealth or services. The whole thing has been accomplished by an intensification and a deepening of the poverty, deprivation and suffering of others. Often the last pathetic pennies of the desperately poor, pennies sorely needed for milk, bread and other bare necessities of helpless little children, are taken and used in a desperate gamble to get something for nothing. Then the prize winner becomes the most complete embodiment of the cruelty, injustice and utter lack of morality of a system under which decent human beings are compelled to fight each other like wild beasts in the jungle because of the false and pernicious teaching, or other teachings like it, that "competition is the life of trade" and that they must compete and strive with each other for things which may be had in abundance without competition. This individual is automatically vested with privilege and power, backed by the respectability and sanctity of law and order, so-called, and at once, despite the untenable nature of his position on any grounds of ethics, morality or common decency, is able to lord it over the lives and destinies of his unfortunate neighbours, whom he can now command to feed, elothe, entertain and protect him and his descendants forever, or as long as the interest system lasts, without their having to render a single useful service in return. I say, Mr. Speaker, it is every one of these manifold contradictions, cruelties, infamies and horrors that this bill seeks to uphold, to condone and to perpetuate.
The hon. member has made reference to another unfortunate method of raising funds for public purposes which is even more degrading and demoralizing than sweepstakes. I refer to the liquor traffic. It has been stated that Ontario's liquor bill last year was $72,000,000. Ontario has about one-third of the population of Canada. It is therefore safe to assume that the people of Canada spent about $200,000,000 on booze last year and that the various provincial governments would get about $40,000,000 out of that. But what an awful price to pay, when it is realized that all that people get in return is something which injures both body and mind, as Shakespeare says, "putting a thief into the mouth
Criminal Code-Sweepstakes

to steal away the brain!" They get more than that. They get ghastly slaughter on the highways, the undermining of health and morals, financial ruin, and a heavily increased demand on the hospitals and morgues of the country. Think, Mr. Speaker, of the irony of the suggestion that organized gambling and booze could by any stretch of the imagination assist in the operation of hospitals! Is it not organized gambling, not only in sweepstakes, but through stock exchanges, in the necessities of life, which drives thousands of people in this country into hospitals, mental institutions, gaols, and premature gra%res, and is this not equally true of booze? How many of the poor people who would gamble their last dollar on a sweepstake to help a university, ever would or could have the privilege of a university education? And besides, what is the use of turning out graduates from high schools and universities when there are such limited opportunities for employment?
Then, Mr. Speaker, think of the shocking waste involved in this method of raising money. We have heard that even the Irish people are protesting against the Irish sweepstakes because of the injury inflicted upon their hospitals; but even apart from that, according to Mr. C. E. Silcox, writing in the New Outlook of April 8, this year, out of a total of three hundred and twenty-five million dollars paid into the twenty Irish sweepstakes up to March, 1937, only about fifty million has found its way into the coffers of the hospitals, or just 16 per cent, which means that the expense of raising this money was 84 per cent, while some community chests have been able to reduce their costs of collection to less than 10 per cent of the amount collected.
Any state that legalizes lotteries will have a new source of income-I dp not question that -but must also be prepared for the consequences, and these are some of them. It will gain a few thousands of dollars at a cost of millions to its people. It will increase its own relief problem. It will encourage new rackets and racketeers. It will not be able to frown upon other forms of gambling. It will do incalculable harm to the morals of its children and its adult irresponsibles. It will increase public disrespect for governments. The contention that our hospitals would benefit, the plea that much money is now going out of the country on foreign sweepstakes that might as well be kept at home, to me are utterly fallacious-devil's arguments in defence of a racket that, from beginning to end, seethes with duplicity and dishonesty.
(Mr. P. J. Rowe.]
During the past three years-and I do not want to be left constantly in a negative position; I want to be able to offer something as an alternative to this-I have stated in this chamber many times that there is a living in sound goods and services of more than 84,400 a year for every family in this country, enough to place every person beyond the borders of poverty and want forever, enough to provide comfortable homes, freedom, security and the happiness that everyone is seeking, if only sound and scientific principles of producing and distributing the wealth that we have and our resources were adopted. There is no possible excuse or reason for their not being adopted. With that income, we would have not the slightest difficulty in keeping up our hospitals and universities. The average man with a salary of $4,400 has no difficulty whatever in making a reasonable contribution and paying adequate taxes to maintain these institutions.
The cure for the present loss or shortage of money in the pockets of the people can be found only by removing the cause. This is not a cure; this is an attempt to rearrange the consequences rather than to examine and remove the cause. I say we would be able, if we would undertake scientific and rational methods of producing our wealth and distributing it equitably, to do so without having to resort to such shameful, degrading and criminal methods as dishonest gambling and poison booze. I have repeatedly asked this government, and I again do so now, to make a survey similar to the Loeb survey in the United States, of the natural resources, inventions and machinery on the farms and in the factories of this country, with a view to determining the potential product capacity of the country, not in meaningless gold, silver or paper dollars, but in consumable sound goods and services, and then, having determined what wealth could be produced, and thus the standard of living available to all the people, go on the radio and carry to every home and hamlet in the land the glad tidings of abundance. I know of sixteen ways by which money is now being made in this country, all of which are unmoral, unethical, injurious and inimical to the general welfare of the people, but all of which are nevertheless clothed with the sanctity of law. Let the government, after telling the people what these abuses are, announce its intention of removing them by passing laws to make them illegal, in order that the people may inherit the earth and its riches, to the mutual benefit of all, and the injury of none.

Criminal Code-Sweepstakes


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not intend to delay the house with any laboured argument of this question; but I do desire to make my position clear in a few words, and I shall refer to one or two arguments that have been advanced in support of the bill. I am opposed to this measure, which seeks to legalize sweepstakes in Canada, because I consider it uneconomic, anti-social and the most extravagant method yet devised for raising money for legitimate and, as indicated by some of the sponsors, desirable ends and purposes. It has been argued that it is justifiable to amend the criminal code to legalize sweepstakes for the purpose of raising funds for the assistance of hospitals and universities.
The law dealing with gambling as it stands in the criminal code is either a good law or a bad law. Either it is a law which it has been found desirable, from the experience of years, and, indeed, of centuries, to have on the statute books, or else a ghastly mistake has been made in maintaining it on the statute books and it ought to be removed. There is no more justification for having sweepstakes to assist a university or a hospital than there is for having sweepstakes for any other purpose that might be desired. The point is not what money or portion of the money obtained will be used for the purpose in question; the point is that gambling has been recognized as a dangerous social practice which ought to be curbed and kept in restraint. That is the experience.


Ernest Bertrand: Why are
there so many exceptions in the code?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I have no objection to a person holding the view that gambling is a desirable thing and that the law against it is bad. Such a person is at perfect liberty to advocate that view. But I take my position very strongly on this ground, that this part of the criminal code has been maintained where it is because the majority of the people of this country, and indeed of many other countries, regard such a provision as in the interests of the social integrity of the nation.
The next point is this: It has been suggested that people are just dying to buy a sweepstake ticket so that they can help a hospital or a university. My hon. friend almost wept a week or two ago when he introduced the bill, when he gave us a picture of people in Montreal, Toronto and other cities looking eagerly for an opportunity to give their $2.50, or whatever the ticket may cost, for the purpose of helping some hospital, suggesting that we who opposed it were
preventing these Charitably inclined people from contributing their $2.50. If they want to contribute $2.50, why can they not simply stick it in an envelope with a three cent stamp and send it to the hospital? My hon. friend knows, and his smiling face shows that he knows very well, that these tickets are bought because people have an expectancy of a large winning with very little risk and at very little cost. It is the expectancy of a large winning. We know that; why camouflage the thing?
Again, it is a self-destructive method, because the more sweepstakes you have, the less any one of them can benefit. One of the reasons why the Dublin sweepstake attracts such a huge amount of money is that it is one of the few large sweepstakes in the world and therefore it draws from the world. There are many people in Canada and in the United States who buy tickets, and a part of their money goes over there-we do not know how much reaches Dublin but some of it does-why? Because the sweepstake draws from the whole world. But if you had a sweepstake in every province in Canada, you would simply restrict the field from which winnings could be drawn.	.
The people who buy tickets in the Dublin sweepstakes, with the huge prizes that are offered, will still buy them although they might support one in Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver or some other place. I contend, however, that it is a self-destructive method. The more it is permitted and the more it extends, the less profitable or useful it will be. It is an extravagant method, moreover; that has been demonstrated. I shall not trouble the house with figures; they are available to anyone who wishes to study them. As the hon. member for Athabaska (Mr. Rowe) has pointed out, about 16 per cent of the huge sums that have rolled into Dublin, with all the glamour and fascination of that sweepstake. has gone into the hospitals. I say, it is an extremely costly method.
The bill naively makes this proviso:
Provided there shall not be held more than one sweepstake. . . .
That is a limitation which has no justification. If this system of raising money is good; if it is sound; if it is justifiable, it ought not to be limited to any one hospital or to two or three favoured hospitals once a year. It should be something open to any institution. But the sponsors know perfectly well that if you multiply sweepstakes, you destroy the whole structure, and therefore it is very cleverly suggested that there should be one a year.
Criminal Code-Sweepstakes

Another suggestion was made that a million dollars went from Toronto to Ireland and that this money ought to have been kept in Canada and directed into the coffers of Canadian sweepstakes. It was advanced as an argument that the people of Toronto-I do not know whether the figures are correct; I am simply taking the argument as advanced-who sent a million dollars to Dublin were so anxious to give it to a hospital that when they could not give it to a Toronto hospital they had to send it to a similar institution in Dublin. Therefore it was contended that we in Canada ought at once to give them an opportunity to contribute to a Toronto or an Ontario hospital. The argument has only to be stated to see how ridiculous it is. In the first place, if we had an Ontario sweepstake, people would still, if they could, buy tickets for the Dublin sweepstake. Why? Because of the hope of those $100,000 winnings. When the newspapers at each drawing for the Irish sweepstake spread the news of a family in New York, or Toronto or some other part of Canada, drawing $100,000, $125,000, $70,000, $10,000, and so on, the avaricious instincts of thousands of people are stirred up and they go out and buy a ticket-what for? To contribute to the Irish hospitals? No. They have no more interest in the Irish hospitals than that inkwell on my desk. All they are thinking of is that they have a wild chance of getting a winning ticket, which chance I understand, taking all the prizes together, amounts to about one in three thousand; something extremely small in any case
For these reasons and many others I am opposed to this bill. I repeat what I said just now, that the law against gambling as it appears on the statute books of this country is either a good law or a bad law. If the law is faulty we should correct it, not for sweepstakes for one purpose; for if sweepstakes are good for that purpose they are good for other purposes. That is not the test of the value of the law. The test of its value is that if it is desirable that some people should have an advantage, the same advantage ought (to be open to any citizen of Canada for any purpose. So I say the law is either good or bad, and the test should be whether we wish to remove from the statute books the law against gambling or whether we prefer to stand by the experience of a great many years and retain this law which most of us believe is necessary in the interest of good social conditions in this country.


Mr. O. B. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):: Mr. Speaker, seeing that it is just about nine o'clock, I should like to adjourn the debate.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.


Otto Buchanan Elliott: After serious consideration I have decided to support this bill, not because I believe that the particular bill is necessary to prevent gambling or anything of that kind, bu't because I believe there should be a certain measure of control in this matter, as there is in other ventures in this dominion. Let me state briefly some of the reasons why I believe we Should have this control. Consider first the Winnipeg grain exchange, where speculation is permitted in the buying and selling of grain futures, not for the benefit of (the people as a whole but for the express purpose of making money. I refer to the grain commission inquiry report, page 47. In regard to speculation in grain futures, we find it said that:
. . . business on the Chicago board of trade would be seriously handicapped, if not wholly dislocated, by the elimination of speculative buying and selling (or even by the elimination of only speculative selling) in the market.
I am convinced by the evidence that the presence of speculators in the Winnipeg futures market is just as essential to the proper functioning of that market as is the case in Chicago. The volume of their transactions may not be as great and on this point there is no definite evidence, but experience has shown that in Winnipeg if the speculator is away the market is in difficulties.
And on page 48:
As long as you have the present method of marketing, speculation is a very necessary element in the existing system and its absence is certainly to be regretted.
I have no brief for gambling in any manner, shape or form; but in the case of the Winnipeg grain exchange, where we are permitted to endanger even the lives of primary producers through the manipulation of the market because of rising and falling prices, we also know that the percentage of winners is small. But as the profits made from this source assist the large grain brokers in handling the crop, assuring them of safe margins, the casino is permitted to exist.
We have the same conditions in the stock market. Stocks are bought mostly for the purpose of making money, not for the purpose of developing property or for any material interest in the welfare of the country. I have here a magazine, the Newsweek, dated May 30, 1938, in which I find the following item in reference to the stock market. It is rather amusing to me, after reading articles during recent months trying to explain why investors have not been taking advantage of the present low prices of stocks. I maintain that the reason is very simple; they have

Supply-National Health
been evading the discussion of the true reason. This article seems to cover the situation. It says:
Investment trust scandal.
Watch for a Wall street explosion with repercussions that may rival those of the Whitney scandal. It will come when the SEC and New York district attorney's office reveal results of an inquiry into three important investment trusts. Investigators have found that the three companies, whose securities are widely held by the general public, have been looted of their choicest assets. Revelations will show that manipulators managed to obtain control of the trusts by purchasing their depressed shares. They then replaced the former management, sold most of the valuable assets of the companies, and used the proceeds to buy shares of little known companies owned by the insiders.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.



PENSIONS AND NATIONAL HEALTH

[Stage Direction]
Health branch-Treatment of sick mariners, $187,390.
Charles Grant MacNeil: Did item No. 240 carry?


Charles Gavan Power: I thought it did;
but it does not matter, if the hon. member wishes to say something more on it.


James Joseph McCann: I wish to ask a question with reference to item No. 240. We were told by the minister that the appointment of the publicity agent was made only yesterday. What interval elapsed between the time the requisition was made by the department and the filling of the position.


Charles Gavan Power: I have not the exact date; I would say roughly from about August or September until yesterday.


James Joseph McCann: There is only one observation I should like to make in that connection. There are many terms one might use in expressing his disapproval of such action, but perhaps they might not be considered parliamentary. I would say that such action, as that, is not calculated to increase the confidence of the public in that branch of government which has to do with the making of these appointments. When urgency was required, it appears to me that the appointment might have been made at least five or six months ago, and the work which the publicity agent in the department of national health was supposed to have carried on would have been well under way by this time.


Charles Gavan Power: I have no special friendship for the civil service commission, but I do not wish to lead the committee into error by saying that the department asked specifically that the appointment be pressed. It went to the civil service commission as a matter of ordinary routine, and the appointment came through in routine fashion. I cannot say, however, on behalf of the department that we asked for any special expedition in the matter.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Was the position advertised?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes; it was advertised. The advertisement started about August, and the appointment was made yesterday.


James Shaver Woodsworth: In connection with health education I cannot but think back to what happened this afternoon when another item concerning food standards was under discussion. What is the use of giving health education when at the same time the department itself would seem to be neglectful of public health, so far as the matter discussed this afternoon was concerned.
As I understand it, the minister himself admits that the order in council did away with certain sections which would seem to protect the standard of purity of flour.


Charles Gavan Power: He does not admit that at all.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Here is what we had before:
Elour shall be the fine, clean, sound product-


Charles Gavan Power: And it still has to be fine and clean.


James Shaver Woodsworth: No, no; there is no clause providing for that at all. And then there is a substance used known as potassium bromate concerning the effect of which the minister himself declares there is a difference of opinion among medical men. I do not think that is a sound position to take. We are informed further that this particular substance produces a skin disease suffered by the employees. I cannot understand the value of going to the public with a publicity campaign telling what the department is doing, with the idea of educating the public, and at the same time yielding to pressure on the part of the millers.
I do not think the minister has cleared up the matter by any means. Hence I have again raised the point in this connection. I for
Supply-National Health

one would be glad to have a great deal of publicity given to public health. I should be glad to have the public educated along these lines. But if the department itself is not living up to its own standards, as it seems to me was admitted to-day, and if under pressure from the milling interests it permits practices which are not sound or about which there is divided medical opinion, there is not much use in passing an item of this kind.
I believe the minister could give us a little more assurance than he has done that there will be a thorough investigation of this matter. Surely the medical people ought to be able to say very definitely-and ought to be unanimous on the point-as to whether or not potassium bromate is injurious to the health of people who eat bread made from this flour. Further than that, I suggest the minister ought to be able to tell us whether or not reports are correct that this substance produces a diseased condition on the part of people who handle it. These are questions which can be definitely determined, and until such determination takes place I think we ought to retain the old sections. As the minister is aware, I am not an expert in these matters; I can take merely what has been stated. Certainly nothing the minister has said has cleared up the charge. Until that is done we might as well give up public health education. We lead the public to a point where they are educated to eat pure food, and then they are told that under pressure from the millers safeguarding clauses are deleted.


Charles Gavan Power: I cannot but admire the ingenuity with which the hon. member brings us back to an item which was passed in his absence.
Mr. WOODSW'ORTH: I admit that, but I related the subject to the item under discussion.
Mr. POW'ER: I shall not take advantage of the fact that the other item passed; I am not in the habit of doing that. The point is that under regulations made under authority of the minister, as conferred upon me by the Food and Drugs Act, there were certain regulations giving a description of flour. Flour was described as has been stated by the hon. member.
For many years a number of improvers, including potassium bromate, have been tolerated. Some one in the department issued instructions to some of the flour millers to the effect that potassium bromate would no longer be tolerated. One flour miller who apparently had not been in touch with the department wrote to me to find 
out the state of the case. I had an inquiry made, as I have a right to do under the authority conferred upon me as a minister. As a result of the inquiry and of investigations by the Department of Trade and Commerce, investigations by the Department of Agriculture and the opinion I was able to get from medical men, I came to the conclusion that the small quantity of potassium bromate which would be mixed in the flour in process of milling was not deleterious to humans. In order to get even the ordinary dose of potassium bromate which is usual in sickness, a man would have to eat a hundred loaves of bread.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In how long?


Charles Gavan Power: My right hon. friend raises the point as to whether or not this is what I might call a continuous process of poisoning; that may not be the technical term.


James Joseph McCann: Cumulative.


Charles Gavan Power: I have left my papers upstairs, but I believe I can state the situation in non-technical terms. According to the opinion of Mr. Aitken of the grain board there is no such cumulative effect. I have that opinion in writing. After lengthy inquiry the British government came to the conclusion there were no deleterious effects; but, as I said this afternoon, the French government held a contrary view. The United States millers use potassium bromate, and they are in competition with us at every quarter of the globe. In certain sections of the world, and, I am told, particularly in hot climates, this substance has a beneficial effect upon the bread. What the process is, I am unable to say.
Moreover, so far as I am aware, there is nothing in any regulations which prevents a baker from using this substance indiscriminately, except that the bread may be seized when it is adulterated, or made dangerous for human consumption. So that it appeared to me, after listening to the representations made and from all the information I could get, that there was no reason why this should not be permitted. In consequence of that, the regulations which strictly defined what should be flour have been deleted. But that does not lessen in any way the protection given to the public under the Food and Drugs Act. Prosecutions may be instituted just as before if there is any adulterant used in the flour. In so far as the public are concerned, they have just as much protection as they had before. In regard to the technical question as to whether or not potassium bromate is deleterious, in the exercise of the authority conferred upon me

Supply-National Health
as minister, after listening to all the evidence that was tendered, I came to the conclusion that it was not. However, I do not say that I am infallible.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Were the minister's
technical advisers unanimous about taking that action?


Charles Gavan Power: It is only fair to say that they were not.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Why delete the two regulations entirely and not replace them with some more moderate ones? As the matter stands now, there is no reference to flour.


Charles Gavan Power: There are a great number of improvers, and if we permitted one specifically it would be necessary to permit practically all the others. It would have left the door just as wide open as it is now, if it can be said to be wide open. We do not define flour any longer; that is all.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is the trouble.


Charles Gavan Power: If the food is found unfit
for human consumption; if it is found to be adulterated, we have the same power to prosecute.
With respect to the other point raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), that the use of potassium bromate in the mills might be injurious to the workmen, I must confess that this is the first time I have heard of that. I am informed that in so far as our department is concerned, we do not know of any cases. As I said this afternoon to the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. MacNeil), we created last year and have begun to operate this year a division of industrial hygiene in the department. I shall certainly make it my duty to have the circumstances he outlines inquired into at the earliest possible moment.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: What percentage of this salt of potassium would be in the bread after it has finished yeasting?


Charles Gavan Power: There is a small amount of bromide.


Charles Grant MacNeil: The minister has given permission to the milling interests to continue the use of potassium bromate as an improver. I gather from the minister's remarks that at one stage his technical advisers stated that it should not be used as it might be injurious for human consumption. I should like to know the results of recent tests and analyses that may have been conducted in the departmental laboratory with regard to the use of this salt in flour.


Charles Gavan Power: I think I should say in fairness to the departmental officials that it was not proven that it was or was not deleterious. If I had the file here I could quote distinguished chemists who said that it was and chemists equally distingushed who said it was not. I think the opinion of the departmental experts would be something like this in a non-technical way: You cannot prove that it is not deteterious; the regulation is there, so let it stay. The only argument I could urge against those who wanted this change was that the regulation was there, so let it stay. I do not have such respect for regulations simply because they are regulations that I want to have to fall back on that argument. There is no danger to anyone. If any difficulty does arise, we shall be glad to tighten up the regulations again.
Another point raised, which required consideration, was as to whether we should insist on the package being labelled, "improved with bromate," or whatever else it was. It was pointed out to us that to do that would almost entirely destroy our export trade in flour, because other countries exporting this product do not make a similar declaration even though the substance is added. The next problem was whether we should insist on this being stated on the package intended for home consumption only. However, it boiled down to this:	We thought perhaps we would
tolerate it for the time being, at least.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister' has been quite frank and I appreciate it.


Charles Gavan Power: Why not? I have nothing to hide.


James Shaver Woodsworth: At the same time, I do not think his explanation is altogether satisfactory. Apparently the millers are determined to have this substance in the flour in order that they can export. Officially we do not seem to care whether a customer overseas is poisoned, but in any case we should have regard for our own people. However, since a large part of this production is exported, we must apparently take risks with our own people. That is how it seems to me. When these regulations were in force the millers were held responsible for the purity of their product. That was a definite, positive thing. Now some one will have to be poisoned or will have to go before the courts and prove that bread thus made is not fit for human consumption.


Charles Gavan Power: No.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I thought that was the way in which action would have to be taken. What is the procedure?
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Charles Gavan Power: Is it an adulterant?


James Shaver Woodsworth: What else is it?


Charles Gavan Power: It does not lower the quality.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What else is it?


Charles Gavan Power: It is supposed to raise the quality.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The former provision was quite clear. The regulation read:
3. Flour shall be the fine, clean, sound product made by bolting wheat meal, and shall contain not more than thirteen and five-tenths (13-5) per cent of moisture, not less than one and twenty-five hundredths (1 - 25) per cent of organic nitrogen, nor more than two (2) parts per million of nitrite reacting nitrogen, not more than one (1) per cent of ash, and not more than fifty hundredths (0-50) per cent of fibre.
There is a similar regulation with regard to bleached flour. Those regulations were specific and definite and the millers were held responsible for upholding that standard. But there is no standard to-day. They have asked that these regulations be deleted in order that they may use this one particular substance, potassium bromate, as an improver.


Charles Gavan Power: And others.


James Shaver Woodsworth: They can introduce a dozen things that they call improvers, and there is nothing to safeguard the public.


Charles Gavan Power: If the improvers are deleterious to human health, we will check them up.


James Shaver Woodsworth: How is that to be done?


Charles Gavan Power: Under the act.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This is a complete reversal of the previous procedure. Under the former regulations the millers were held responsible, and now some one must prove the product deleterious.


Charles Gavan Power: We have full authority under section 4 of the Food and Drugs Act.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What evidence is required? I suppose some one will have to be poisoned and then there will be an investigation.


Charles Gavan Power: The public would be protected in this case as it is in connection with sausages or hamburgers or all those things.


James Joseph McCann: The explanation given by the minister is perfectly clear and straightforward, and should be grasped easily even by the lay mind. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) appears to be making a mountain out of a mole-hill. Potassium bromate is not a 
deleterious or injurious drug at any time. It has no cumulative effects, and if it is used in the process of baking as an improver for yeast this is done only with the idea of promoting the chemical action which goes on in the process of bread-making. It has been put forward here as an argument against its use that those who are engaged in the trade and handle flour are subject to skin eruptions and other diseases because of the use of potassium bromate. That I may say, broadly speaking, is not the case. There are individuals who are susceptible even to the action of flour on their hands and arms. They have what we call an idiosyncrasy for that type of thing, and it has never been proven that the addition of potassium bromate as an improver of yeast in the making of bread has one iota of effect in producing skin eruptions. If our export flour to hotter climates particularly, Jamaica and the West Indies, demands the addition* of an improver of the type of potassium bromate, that is doing nobody any harm, and we are simply adding to the flour something which will help to sell it in those particular countries. Its use even in our own country for domestic purposes does not do one iota of harm.


Charles Grant MacNeil: The statement of the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann) is most reassuring, but it does not meet the point we have been endeavouring to make this afternoon and this evening. Standards were formerly prescribed, but the door is now more or less wide open to doubtful practices. The minister intimated that the Maple Leaf Milling Company were content to proceed with the processing of their flour without the use of potassium bromate.


Charles Gavan Power: Either the Maple Leaf Milling Company or the Lake of the Woods Milling Company. I have not my papers before me at the moment.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Does that not lead to the conclusion that the same results might be achieved in the quality of bread by the more careful processing of grains, without the use of questionable substances? Certainly, I think we should make a stand against the use of any form of adulterant or improver, if it is possible to process satisfactory and wholesome flour without it. Bread is an article that goes on every table, and it is vitally important that the strictest regulations should exist to protect the public.


Charles Gavan Power: Every baker has been able to use potassium bromate for years almost ad lib, and he can do so yet. It struck me at the time that it would be preferable, if it were desirable to permit the infusion of this

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substance, to have it done scientifically by the miller, to simply throwing the substance in, in handfuls, in a bake shop. I thought it better to control it scientifically, rather than have it done in a haphazard fashion.


James Joseph McCann: With reference to the item of $160,000 for professional and special services in the treatment of sick mariners, might I ask the minister how many hospitals are operated for sick mariners; what is the professional personnel, and how many full time men there are?


Charles Gavan Power: We have only one hospital, at Lunenburg, and no full-time doctor. We have one hospital guard. We have contracts with about a hundred hospitals all over the country. I have the list here covering several pages, if my hon. friend wants it. Almost all the medical men connected with this service are on a fee basis, and the hospitals receive payment according to the treatments which they give. We have a few part-time doctors on a fixed fee basis, running from $100 a year up to about $2,000.


James Joseph McCann: Does the department carry any compensation for these mariners in the event of accident?


Charles Gavan Power: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Industrial hygiene, $11,450.
Mr. MacNICOL:: Would the minister give a detailed description of just how industry benefits from this vote?


Charles Gavan Power: I have a memorandum here on the subject:
The purpose of industrial hygiene is to develop methods for the protection and improvement of the health of industrial workers. It has now become an integral part of any public health program dealing with the prevention of disease.
Comprehensive surveys in many countries and states have shown that illness and injury in industry have increased in direct proportion to the widespread use of hazardous processes and injurious materials in an ever increasing variety of industrial uses. Moreover, un-healtbful industrial environment not only causes specific occupational diseases but increases the incidence of tuberculosis, pneumonia and degenerative diseases (heart, kidneys, nervousness) among workers. As the result of increased health hazards and lowered health standards of workers, there have developed serious economic problems.
The first step undertaken by the division of industrial hygiene has been the creation of a technical advisory committee on industrial hygiene.
In that connection we called into consultation representatives of the Department of
Labour, representatives of all the provinces, representatives of the universities and of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce and the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, also university professors, as well as representatives of organized labour. We called them in to help us to elaborate a program.
The duties of the committee will be to institute studies in respect of industrial diseases and hazards associated with special industries with a view to determining the problems presented in this field and the methods that may be adopted for their control. Where indicated, special methods that have as their object the reduction of industrial disease hazards will be investigated.
The division of industrial hygiene will conduct special studies regarding illness in industries in cooperation with provincial departments of health. The division will disseminate to the provincial departments of health and to industrial concerns scientific knowledge in respect of industrial diseases gleaned from world-wide research and experience gained in the matter of reducing health hazards in industry.
An endeavour will be made by the division to encourage industrial establishments to adopt a uniform morbidity code, which has been developed by this department in order that sound comparisons may be made with regard to illnesses in various industries. The provinces will be encouraged to take a greater interest in industrial diseases and, where possible, to establish divisions of industrial hygiene. Efforts will be directed towards the development of uniform legislation in regard to sanitation of industrial establishments with the object of obtaining equitable and uniform standards for the provinces and control of industrial diseases throughout the country.
It is believed that as a result of the activities of this division measures may be adopted to reduce working hazards in industry generally.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Is not all that now
taken care of by the provincial departments of health, and if so, is not this department merely supplementing or assisting in some way in the work the provincial departments are doing?


Charles Gavan Power: The work is really collecting information and making studies which will be of some use to the provinces. At the present time three provincial governments have branches of industrial hygiene-Ontario, Quebec, and, I think, Manitoba; but it is possible, by research work and studies of what is going on in other countries, that we may be able to obtain for the provinces information which will be very helpful to them. It is not intended that we should go into industrial establishments and undertake their supervision, by putting into effect factory laws oi regulations for the prevention of accidents. It is rather the study of occupational diseases, which workmen's compensation boards have had neither the time nor the opportunity to
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study. I must say that Ontario has made more progress perhaps than any country in the world with respect to silicosis, and it will not need our assistance in that regard.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The discoveries made
by the department are simply passed over to provincial departments?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-Grant to the Canadian Welfare Council, $8,100.
James Joseph McCann: I notice that the grant
to the Canadian Welfare Council this year is $8,100, but the grant last year and for a number of years was in the neighbourhood of $13,100. I should like to pay tribute to the council as one of the voluntary agencies in this country which has been carrying on public health work. The fact that the grant is not as large as it has been in previous years is not because the organization is doing any less work or less important work, but there has been established in the department a public health branch which will take up maternal and child welfare and thus relieve the council of some of the work it has been doing for the public health of the dominion. I believe that in paying tribute to the Canadian Welfare Council I voice the sentiments of those who are engaged in health work in Canada and of those hon. members who are interested in public health activities. I agree that the right policy is being followed by the reestablishment within the department of a division of maternal and child welfare which will gradually take on the work that was formerly done by the department and which for the last number of years has been done by the Canadian Welfare Council.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
L Association Canadienne Francaise ties Aveugles, $4,050.
James Joseph McCann: What particular work is
being done by this institution?


Charles Gavan Power: This is the French-Canadian association for the blind.


James Joseph McCann: Is the institution indicated in item No. 249 an association for the blind?


Charles Gavan Power: It also is an institution for the blind.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Montreal Association for the Blind, $4,050.
James Shaver Woodsworth: Why the grant for the Canadian National Institute for the blind

and the special grant to the Montreal association? Is not the Montreal association connected with the other?


Charles Gavan Power: They do not seem to work together. They have never done so. I do not know which has seniority, but (they both do very good work in their separate fields. I believe the Montreal institution for the blind was founded by a Mr. Layton-probably the hon. member remembers him-who has been prominent in working for the blind and particularly in pressing for pensions for them. For some reason or another this association has never coordinated its efforts with those of the Canadian National Institute.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is there any overlapping?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think so. I think the Montreal institution looks after the English speaking blind in the province of Quebec, and there is some kind of agreement that, so to speak, one will keep out of the other's territory. I do not believe there is anybody outside the province of Quebec who belongs to the Montreal institution.


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I ask how
many people, are treated or helped?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not know that I can give the hon. member the number. I can tell him what work is being done. This association operates a school for the blind and an industrial home in Montreal. Its activities include a boarding school for the blind and partly blind boys and girls, a workshop for blind men, a workshop for blind women, a boarding home for blind men,, a residence for blind women. It has a lending library of over 2,000 volumes in braille, a home teaching and social service department; glasses are distributed free to needy patients; there are pensions and money allowances, food, coal and clothing; and social activities which are attended by blind people from all over the city. We have given the same amount each year since 1927.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister has no information with regard to the numbers?


Charles Gavan Power: No; I have not it here.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Red Cross Society,
Mr. PELLETIER:: This grant to the Canadian Red Cross society is 810,000. I notice that the grant to the Victorian Order of Nurses is $13,100. Why should the grant to the Red Cross be less than the other?

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Charles Gavan Power: I really do not know, but the answer I am given is that the Red Cross society has been in existence the shorter time, and probably it has not got accustomed to getting any more. I will say this, that the Canadian Red Cross society would like to get a larger grant, and I should like to give it to them if I could.


René-Antoine Pelletier: I believe that is just as frank a statement as I have ever heard a minister make in this chamber. I notice that the Canadian Red Cross society is putting on an intensive campaign for funds, and its work is well known to everybody. I think the minister should very favourably consider any application on its part for an increased grant. It is doing wonderful work, and its organization is probably as large as that of the Victorian Order of Nurses. If the Red Cross society applies to the minister for an increased grant, I would appeal to him to give it favourable consideration.


Charles Gavan Power: I make speeches in favour of their having more funds, but I am very sorry to say that I have not been able to get them any more. They are entitled to it; I have no objection to saying that.


James Joseph McCann: How many outpost hospitals have the Canadian Red Cross?


Charles Gavan Power: Roughly, forty. I have not here all the details of the work of the Canadian Red Cross, but they do excellent work in their outpost hospitals and in many other places.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Dental Hygiene Council, $2,500.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Why this increase?


Charles Gavan Power: It is increased as a result of representations made in this committee last year that the &750 then granted was a ridiculous amount to vote. I agree.


Abraham Albert Heaps: What work does this organization perform?


Charles Gavan Power: It organizes surveys and puts on campaigns in the different provinces to look into the care of the teeth mostly of school children, but of adults also. It goes from province to province and carries on the work generally throughout the year, but every year or so it takes on a campaign in one particular province, in the way of dental health education, at the request of the provincial department. It does exceedingly good work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions branch-Pensions and other benefits -Pensions payable to men on active service, Northwest rebellion, 1885, and general pensions, $20,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Some representations were made that some of those who participated in the rebellion of 1885 had been overlooked, and there was communication with the department. Have their difficulties been adjusted?


Charles Gavan Power: My only recollection is that certain veterans of 1885 made representations that they also should come under the War Veterans' Allowance Act. They probably thought this was a new form of pension, because it is evident that anyone who served in the rebellion of 1885 and is now indigent would come under old age pensions.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Are the men who receive small pensions under this item entitled to unemployment assistance if they require it?


Charles Gavan Power: I do not think we have ever had an application. I think we could arrange it, because the regulations with respect to unemployment assistance are pretty wide and it might be possible to look after them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Services to veterans and dependents-Care of patients, $3,045,287.
Charles Grant MacNeil: When we were discussing hospitalization last night I was going to ask the minister some questions regarding orthopaedic appliances. Are all those who suffer from pre-enlistment disabilities aggravated by war service entitled to such appliances?


Charles Gavan Power: Any appliance that has to be used or worn on account of a disability incurred or aggravated on service is given to the applicant.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Quite a number of men have complained, and on investigation of some of these cases there was a doubt as to their eligibility for assistance in this form. I have on my file a copy of a letter from the director of medical services indicating that appliances could not be given to men whose disability was aggravated during service.


Charles Gavan Power: If the hon. member will
inform me of one case, I shall have it adjusted. Certain abuses of that kind have crept in, and if he will show me a service aggravated case where a man needs an appliance he will get it. He will get it whether the case is aggravated or incurred on service.


Charles Grant MacNeil: A number of men who
formerly, for quite a number of years, received special boots from the department
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have had the issue of boots discontinued, and I am at a loss to understand why they should be denied that assistance. If a man has any actual disability which through the years has necessitated his wearing a special boot, and if he is not now provided with such boots and is unable out of his own resources to secure them-because they are fairly expensive, being specially made-the very loss of that form of assistance constituted a disability. I have in mind special cases of men who are making an effort to remain at wrork, and they are carrying on with difficulty because they no longer receive these special boots.


Charles Gavan Power: I understand that in some
cases orthopaedic boots would not always be needed. A man's condition may have so improved by the use of a boot that he would not need a second or third or fourth supply as the case may be. I understand that in 1932 or 1933 there was a review of all these cases, and there was perhaps a certain shrinkage in the number of those receiving boots. I would point out in the first place that there is no departmental policy that an aggravated case is not entitled to boots. In the second place, any of the cases brought to my attention where the free issue has been curtailed owing to the tightening up of rules and regulations in 1932 and 1933 have been attended to, and some way has been found of having the issue made; that is, when the consultant says that boots are necessary. I would not give a man a pair simply because he said he wanted them, because they cost $13 or $14.


Charles Grant MacNeil: With reference to men
awarded pensions under section 21 of the Pension Act, for compassionate or meritorious reasons, are they entitled to medical treatment as class one patients, on the same basis as other pensioners?


Charles Gavan Power: No. Under the regulations it would appear that treatment is given only for disability incurred or aggravated on service. Section 21 provides for the man who cannot get a pension under the pension law. Up to the present I do not know of any case where treatment has been refused, but the regulations have never covered it. Again, however, I say to my hon. friend that if he knows of a real case where a man who had service in France needs treatment and has not the means of obtaining it, I shall see that he gets it.


Charles Grant MacNeil: On a former occasion the
minister gave the names of the staff employed in the pension department at Shaugh-nessy military hospital, Vancouver. Can he
(Mr. MacNeil.]
give the staff so far as medical treatment is concerned? I am referring to the medical staff, and also the number of consultations.


Charles Gavan Power: The names are: G. C. Derby, the district administrator; Dr. J. H. Jones, Dr. F. H. Mahood, Dr. J. S. McCallum; Dr. J. Brown; Dr. A. B. Schinbein; Dr. W. A. Wilson; Dr. C. S. McKee; Dr. G. Draeseke; Dr. W. W. Kennedy; Dr. H. H. McIntosh; Dr. A. A. McRae.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Are any of those on the
permanent staff permitted to engage in private medical practice?


Charles Gavan Power: All the part-time officers are on the permanent staff, in that they are permanent civil employees; but if my hon. friend means full-time employees, to my knowledge they do not carry on private practice.


James Joseph McCann: I assume that this amount of $3,045,287 is for the medical care of the returned men. I really am at a loss to understand why, twenty years after the close of the war, it should cost so much for the hospitalization of those who were engaged in the war and who need the care of medical men. Everybody understands that it is costly to maintain hospitals, and I give way to no man in my desire to see the returned men well looked after. We are maintaining eight hospitals in Canada for returned soldiers. An investigation ought to be made with a view to establishing homes for these men. They could be as well looked after in returned soldiers' homes as in up to date hospitals with permanent, full-time officials and a full staff. If we are at the present time spending over $3,000,000 a year, twenty years after the close of the war, we have made no progress in that time in the method of caring for these men. We could well afford to have homes for them where they would be assured of all the comforts they would have if they were in good circumstances in their own homes. These institutions could be supervised by competent officials, and these returned men could have visiting, part-time medical services, and be just as well off at perhaps half the cost. I would recommend that the government give serious consideration to revamping the whole system of taking care of returned men.


Charles Gavan Power: I have heard this same proposal made by others, including one association of returned men, who said they thought that by this time we should give up our departmental hospitals and place all soldier patients in civilian hospitals. But I do not believe the cost would be much if any less

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than under the present system. I put the suggestion to other returned soldier associations; I discussed it informally with the members of an association at a convention, and I was told it would not be popular with the soldiers to place ex-soldier patients in civilian hospitals. In the hospitals under the department they have the comradeship of their own friends; they have returned soldier doctors, nurses and orderlies; they are treated as a class by themselves. I do not believe it would please the ex-soldiers if I were to adopt the suggestion of my hon. friend, although I admit it was strongly pressed upon me by a returned soldiers' organization, so he is by no means alone in his view.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Is it not true that practically all those now in the hospitals are there solely for the purpose of actual remedial treatment,
as determined by departmental medical authorities, pursuant to P.C. 91?


Charles Gavan Power: Not quite all. Not half.


Charles Grant MacNeil: Is there any substantial number in the hospitals merely because they require domiciliary care?


Charles Gavan Power: The number is 378, to be exact, and my hon. friend must remember that we have a number of mental cases.


Howard Charles Green: How many veterans, both in-patients and out-patients, received treatment in these departmental hospitals during the last fiscal year?


Charles Gavan Power: The number runs from 2,300 to 2,500 every day in the year. I do not think it went over 2,500. It goes up in the winter and down in the summer.


Howard Charles Green: The figures given in the report of the department, page 27, show 2,212 in-patients and eight out-patients, or a total of 2,220, as at March 31, 1937. Was there a smaller or a larger number on March 31, 1938?


Charles Gavan Power: I think there is a difference of about 100. In 1937 there were 2,220; in 1938, 2,105. These consist of the three major classifications: general treatment, tubercular, and mental. I have not the total here; we have to add those in other hospitals, provincial mental hospitals. In British Columbia I believe there are about ninety-eight; they would not be included in this figure. And there are some in Saskatchewan.


Howard Charles Green: In view of the fact that the numbers are decreasing, yet we still have the hospitals and the staffs, would it not be 51952-211
possible to extend hospital treatment to men who are not pensioners, although they have gunshot wounds, and also to recipients of the war veterans' allowance?


Charles Gavan Power: A large number of these are being taken care of now.


Howard Charles Green: But some provision could be made for them.


Charles Gavan Power: I do not want to make any regulations which would restrict any chance I may have of doing this. I prefer to carry on as we have been doing and allow as many as possible in under the present regulations. I think we are doing that fairly successfully.


Howard Charles Green: Has the minister the figures for the last few years showing the number of admissions and cost of care of patients and of hospital allowances?


Charles Gavan Power: It is in the annual report every year, but not yet available for this year.


James Joseph McCann: How do your costs compare with civil institutions?


Charles Gavan Power: They are lower than the average for civilian institutions. It does not cost us any more to look after our own patients than it would to put them in civilian hospitals.


James Joseph McCann: Is it not a fact that there are many in these hospitals who are not under treatment but who are there more for the purpose of having a home?


Charles Gavan Power: Yes; 378 of them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous grants-Grant to the Association des Medecins de Langue Francaise de L'Amerique du Nord, $5,000.
René-Antoine Pelletier: For how many years has this grant been made to this association?


Charles Gavan Power: They do not meet every year; it is about every second year.


René-Antoine Pelletier: How many times has a grant been given to this association?


Charles Gavan Power: I know they had it about 1934 and 1936. I cannot say whether they had it in 1932.


René-Antoine Pelletier: What is the purpose of this grant, and what services are these people performing?
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Charles Gavan Power: This is a conference of the French speaking doctors of North America. As a matter of fact, this year they are using the money, as I think they did on a former occasion, to 'bring distinguished medical men from the old country.


Richard Bedford Bennett: From Paris.


Charles Gavan Power: They brought someone from Paris on the last occasion, and I know it is their intention to do so this year. Whether it is one doctor or more, I cannot say. My hon. friend probably knows that a large proportion of the French-Canadian doctors and French speaking doctors throughout America received their education in Paris, and in order to keep in touch with medical knowledge over there and apply it in their work they found it essential to form an association of their own and to bring -people over who would keep them in touch with the latest developments.


René-Antoine Pelletier: At what place is the convention to be held this year?


Charles Gavan Power: It was in Ottawa the last time; this year I think it is to be in Montreal, but I cannot say for certain.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Dunning the house adjourned at 10 p.m.
Monday, May 30, 1938