1937-03-01

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. HYNDMAN:: How many farmers in Canada, to date, have applied for a loan under:	(a) the Housing
Act; (b) the Home Improvement Act?


Mr. DUNNING:: Information not available.
Loan applications under the Dominion Housing Act and the Home Improvement plan which are rejected by the approved lending institutions are not forwarded to the Department of Finance. Therefore, the only records kept by the department are those of loans actually made.


CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
Mr. LAPOINTE (Matapedia-Matane):: 1.	How much time does the Canadian Radio Corporation devote to French programs in the province of Quebec?
2.	How much time is devoted by the said corporation to English programs in the said province?
3.	How much time is devoted by the said corporation to English programs in each of the other provinces?
4.	How much time is devoted by the said corporation to French programs in each of the provinces other than Quebec?


Mr. HOWE:: The following information has been supplied by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation:
1.	Thirteen hourst, forty-five minutes, weekly.
2.	Nine hours, forty-five minutes, weekly.
3.	Eastern network: Five hours, forty-five minutes, weekly. Eastern and midwest network: Two hours, weekly. Western network: Thirteen hours, weekly. National network: Eleven hours, forty-five minutes, weekly.
4.	One hour, fifteen minutes, weekly.


PORT OF MONTREAL-COAL DOCKS
Mr. FOURNIER (Maisonneuve-Rosemount):: 1.	Will coal dealers be permitted to unload, in the port of Montreal, at points between Boulevard Pie IX and the works of the Canadian Vickers, or further east?
2.	If so, when?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	If new docks are built in this area they may be used at least in part for the handling of coal.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


BANK OF CANADA BUILDING
Mr. ISNOR:: 1.	Have plans and specifications been prepared for certain alterations, expansions and remodelling contemplated in connection with Bank of Canada building at Ottawa?
2.	If so, who were the architects?
Questions

3.	At what cities could these plans and specifications be seen?
4.	Were they to be had at any point east of Montreal ?
5.	If not, why?
6.	What was the first date on which the plans were available?
7.	What was the date on which tenders were to be received?


Charles Avery Dunning: As indicated by the honourable the Minister of Public Works in answer to a somewhat similar question on February 4th (Hansard, page 535), the new head office building of the Bank of Canada is being constructed by the bank for itself. If this inquiry were addressed directly to the Bank of Canada they, no doubt, would be glad to furnish the information desired.


CREDIT RIVER, ONT., LIGHTHOUSE
Mr. GRAYDON:: 1.	Was the lighthouse at the mouth of the Credit river in Peel county destroyed by fire?
2.	If so, on what date did the fire occur?
3.	Has the said lighthouse been replaced?
4.	If not, does the government contemplate rebuilding same?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Light in question was discontinued in 1919. The tower was destroyed by fire in July, 1936.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.
4.	Matter under consideration.


EMIGRATION FROM CANADA
Mr. COLD WELL:: 1.	How many persons left Canada to take up permanent residence abroad in each of the following years: 1930, 1931, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936?
2.	How many of such persons left Canada for the British Isles in each of the above years, and how many for the United States?


Mr. CRERAR:: The department has not the information to answer this question. We do not keep any record of emigrants leaving Canada, consequently the question cannot be answered.
Question dropped.


GRANTS TO FAIRS IN PRAIRIE PROVINCES
Mr. TUCKER:: 1.	Does the federal government make grants to fairs in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta?
2.	If so, what fairs have received grants, and what was the amount of each of such grants during the year 1936?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
[Mr. Isnor.l
2.
Manitoba:	Grants paid
Class "A" Fairs-	in 1936
Winnipeg		. S3,740 81
Brandon		. 4.000 00
'Class "B" Fairs-	
Carman		. $2,311 45
Dauphin			. 1,933 00
Portage la Prairie		. 1,930 54
Winter Fair-	
Brandon		. $2,500 00*
Saskatchewan: Class "A" Fairs-	
Saskatoon		. $4,000 00
Regina		. 4,000 00
Class "B" Fairs-	
Moose Jaw		. $1,945 48
Lloydminster		. 2.500 00
Melfort		. 2,200 00
North Battleford		. 2,087 26
Prince Albert.. .. *. .. .	. 2,325 00
Weyburn		. 2,219 34
Yorkton		. 2,421 95
Estevan		. 1,898 83
Winter Fairs-	
Saskatoon		. $6,000 00*
Regina		. 2,500 00*
Alberta: Class "A" Fairs-	
Calgary		. $3,991 85
Edmonton		. 4,000 00
Class "B" Fairs-	
Lethbridge		. $1,914 42
Red Deer		. 2,043 31
Vegreville		. 2,495 73
Vermilion		. 2,230 25
Camrose		. 1,905 08
Winter Fairs-	
Calgary		. $2,500 00*
Edmonton.. 			. 2,500 00*
* Incomplete.	
UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF ASSISTANCE ACT-ONTARIO	
AND QUEBEC Mr. CHURCH:	
1.	What grants towards relief works have
been made under the provisions of the Unemployment Relief Assistance Act by order in council and agreement with the province of Ontario?	,
2.	What municipal works in Ontario were so aided, giving the name of the municipality, the nature of the work and the amount of federal aid in each ease?
3.	Of the total $2,750,000 under this act voted to Quebec municipalities by order in council dated February 22, 1937, tabled February 24, for relief works, how much has been paid?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	The relief works being carried out in the province of Ontario under the provisions of

Motions for Papers
the Unemployment Relief and Assistance Act, 1936, are all set forth in the agreement entered into between the dominion and the province under date of September 10, 1936. A copy of this agreement was tabled in the House of Commons on January 15, 1937.
2.	Same as No. 1.
3.	Claims have been received from the province amounting to $729,168.53. Of this amount $81,154.81 has been paid. The remaining accounts, which have been received within the past few days, are at the present time being audited and payment will be made in due course, if the accounts are found to be in order.


PEED AND SEED LOANS-SASKATCHEWAN
Mr. NEEDHAM:: 1.	What financial assistance has been agreed upon by the dominion government and the province of Saskatchewan respecting feed and fodder, and seed and spring supplies for 1937 in the area known as federal approved area?
2.	For what share is the recipient responsible?
3.	For what share is the province of Saskatchewan responsible?
4.	For what share is the dominion government responsible?


Mr. GARDINER:: Under consideration.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. VENIOT:: 1. How much did the federal government contribute to each of the provinces, last year and in the current year, as direct grants-in-aid for unemployment relief?
2. How much did the federal government contribute to each of the provinces, last year and in the current year, in the form of cooperative public works and enterprises, to assist in the relief of unemployment?
3.	What mileage of trans-Canada highway was constructed, last year and in the current year?
4.	What was the gross mileage cost, last year and in the current year?
5.	What mileage was constructed, last year and in the current year, in each of the provinces?
6.	On what basis did the federal government cooperate in the trans-Canada highway construction in each of the provinces, last year and in the current year?
7.	What was the cost to the federal government, last year and in the current year, for trans-Canada highway construction in each of the provi nces ?


LIFE INSURANCE COMPANIES
Mr. BLACKMORE:: 1. What was the premium income for 1928 for the Sun Life Assurance Company of Canada, the Mutual Life Assurance Company of Canada, the Canada Life Assurance Company, the
North American Life Assurance Company, the Great West Life Assurance Company?
2.	W7hat was the amount of death claims paid by each of the above assurance companies in 1928?
3.	What was the interest income for each of the above assurance companies during 1928?
4.	What were the subsidiary companies, if any, of the above assurance companies, during 1928?


Charles Avery Dunning: Return tabled herewith.


CANADIAN FARM LOAN BOARD, REGINA
Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appella):: 1.	What are the names of the present staff of the Canadian Farm Loan Board at Regina office, and what is the salary of each?
2. What are the names of the permanent appraisers employed by the Regina branch of the Canadian Farm Loan Board, and the salary of each?
3. What are the names of the temporary appraisers employed during the season 1936 by the Canadian Farm Loan Board at Regina, and the salary of each?
4.	Are there any temporary appraisers employed at the present time?


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE-OFFICERS AND MEN BORN OUTSIDE OF CANADA
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Referring to sessional paper No. 160 (reference No. 41 of February 10. 1937), how many of the: (a) 92 officers, and (b) 246 men of the National Defence department staff who were born outside of Canada, have served: (1) in an actual theatre of war; (2) 20 miles behind the lines; (3) in England; or (4) in Canada ?
2.	Same question for non-commissioned officers?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. GIROUARD:: For a copy of all reports, papers, plans and other documents in the possession of the Department of Transport, concerning the proposed construction of a branch line between Drum-mondville and Vietoriaville.



CLAUDE, N B., POSTMASTERSHIP

Mr. BROOKS:: For a copy of all papers, affidavits, evidence, correspondents and other documents concerning the dismissal of Mr. Henri D. Cormier, former postmaster at Glaude post office, Westmorland county, New Brunswick, together with a statement of cost of investigation showing to whom money was paid.



NOTRE DAME DE LA SALETTE, QUE., POST OFFICE

Mr. MASSEY (for Mr. Wermenlinger):: For a copy of all correspondence and other documents relative to the post office of Notre-Dame de la Salette, Hull county, since November, 1935, to date. Also the report of the investigator concerning the said post office.

Motions for Papers



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-GRADE SEPARATION, TORONTO

Mr. HARRIS:: For a copy of all reports, papers, correspondence, plans and other documents in the possession of the Department of Transport, concerning the proposed construction of a grade separation at Victoria Park avenue, Canadian National Railways on the border line between the city of Toronto and the township of Scarborough.



TORONTO PUBLIC WORKS RELIEF PROGRAM

Joseph Henry Harris: For a copy of all correspondence, reports and other documents exchanged between the mayor of the city of Toronto, the board of control, Toronto harbour commission, city of Toronto works commissioner, and the Department of Labour, the Department of Transport, and the Department of Public Works, relating to a public works program for relief purposes in the city of Toronto.



FISHERIES RESEARCH BOARD


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. E. MICHAUD (Minister of Fisheries) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to repeal the Biological Board Act and to provide in its stead for the creation of a fisheries research board to have charge of the fisheries research work carried on by the dominion; and to provide for travelling and other expenses of the members of the board and any emolument that might be deemed necessary to pay the chairman and secretary of such board.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to control and regulate the importation, exportation, sale and other dealing with feeding stuffs by registration and inspection; the imposition of registration fees; and to authorize the Minister of Agriculture to appoint officers for the effective execution of the act.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with

the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to regulate the testing, inspection, sale and importation of seeds; to provide for the appointment and definition of duties of an advisory board; the appointment of inspectors and analysts; the licensing of new varieties of seeds and the imposition of licence fees, and to provide for penalties in consequence of violations of the act.
He said; His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to extend the operations of the Old Age Pensions Act to include certain classes of blind persons not included in the act.
He said: Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I think the house in entitled to a little more information than is contained in the resolution itself. The proposal which will be contained in the bill to be founded upon the resolution is to extend the provisions of the Old Age Pensions Act to blind persons at the age of forty.
At this stage I need not review the discussions which have taken place in this house on former occasions with respect to this matter. The various conditions in connection with it can be dealt with best on the bill itself, and I respectfully suggest that discussion should take place at that stage. For the present I should inform the house that the estimated cost to the federal treasury of the proposed measure on the basis of present ascertained numbers is about half a million

Old Age Pensions Act
dollars a year. As to the possible growth in future years I may be able to give some definite indication at a later stage of the bill.
As is well known, the Old Age Pensions Act is based upon agreements between the federal government and the governments of the various provinces, and of course in considering any amendment to the act it is therefore important to consider and make sure of the attitude of the various provinces with regard thereto. There are considerable differences of view among the provinces with respect to old age pension matters generally, but I am pleased to be able to inform the house that with respect to this matter there is complete unanimity, so that there will be no difficulty in so amending the agreements with the provinces as to make possible the carrying out of the legislation now proposed, to make blind persons eligible for old age pensions at the age of forty.
If the house would pass the resolution I should be very glad to have the bill distributed as soon as possible, so that detailed discussion as to its provisions may take place at a later stage.
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, the house
has unanimously approved of the principle of this legislation on several occasions, in the days of the late administration as well as of the present government. Since the only reason effect was not given hitherto to the recommendations made in that regard has been our financial position, I do not think there is any reason why there should be any further discussion as far as we at^ least are concerned, so that at as early a date as possible legislation! may be enacted based upon the resolution.


Mr. A. A. HEAPS (Winnipeg North):: On many occasions, Mr. Speaker, I have found it necessary to criticize adversely certain of the measures which have been introduced by the government. On this occasion I am more than pleased to be able to congratulate the government, and I am very happy to have the privilege of doing so. In many respects this legislation will be far-reaching in its effects. Personally I think $20 per month may be a little low for persons of the age of forty, but I hope this may be just a beginning and that as the years go by we may be able to increase the amount.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.


Mr. CAHAN:: I should like to ask the Minister of Finance whether his department, in association with the officials of the Department of Justice, have considered the full bearing of a recent opinion of the judicial
3X111-854
committee of the privy council, with regard to a matter such as this. As I read that opinion the privy council have declared it illegal for this parliament to make any appropriation of funds derived from taxation for subject matters over which parliament has not legislative jurisdiction under section 91 of the British North America Act. That is a wide and sweeping declaration of the judicial committee of the privy council which I believe applies not only to pensions for old age but also to pensions for the blind, and a number of the other appropriations aggregating tens of millions of dollars which are annually voted by parliament. In view of that opinion I think the government should take into serious consideration the question whether in voting these tens of millions we are not committing illegal acts which are ultra vires of the parliament of Canada.


Mr. POULIOT:: This resolution does not apply to political blindness.


Charles Avery Dunning: Mr. Chairman, naturally the recent decisions of the judicial committee of the privy council are under examination by the Department of Justice, with special reference to their possible bearing upon all matters of legislation-upon that which is now on the statute books, and upon proposed legislation similar to that now before us. In the absence of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) I can say only that this particular piece of legislation has been submitted to the Department of Justice and has remained on the order paper for some time in order that the bearing of matters to which the hon. member has referred might be fully examined by the Department of Justice. I now proceed with the full approval of the Minister of Justice. At a later stage I hope he may have an opportunity to deal with the phase of the matter to which the hon. member has just called attention. In fact I shall call the minister's attention to the hon. member's observations.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is this merely an amendment to existing old age pension legislation?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If, as is suggested by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan), it is contrary to the British North America Act to enact the amending legislation, then the whole of the Old Age Pensions Act is unconstitutional too.


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot offer legal oplr.-ions, but I gathered that was the legal opinion expressed by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: No; I expressed no legal
opinion whatsoever.
1346	COMMONS
* Combines Investigation-Mr. Bennett


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sorry.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I was referring to an opinion expressed by the judicial committee of the privy council.
Resolution reported, read the second1 time and concurred in. Mr. Dunning thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 42, to amend the Old Age Pensions Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. NORMAN McL. ROGERS (Minister of Labour) moved the second reading of Bill No. 41, to amend and consolidate the Combines Investigation Act and amending act.
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition:	Mr. Speaker, the bill has
not been, printed and circulated for twenty-four hours. I received my copy only this morning, and this is an important measure.
Mr. ROGERS:: I believe it was understood the bill would not be discussed until it had been distributed. I was under the impression this morning that it had been distributed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It was on Saturday.


Norman McLeod Rogers: In that event I quite agree that we should not proceed until hon. members have the bill before them.


Richard Bedford Bennett: However, I shall not raise any difficulty on that score. The minister at any rate could make his speech on the motion for second reading and if necessary the debate might be adjourned in order that hon. members may study the matter. Perhaps it would expedite their study if an explanation were now given by the minister.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Mr. Speaker, the bill now before the house for second reading is designed to effect several much-needed alterations in the Combines Investigation Act, with the object of making that legislation a more efficient instrument for safeguarding the public interest against detrimental combinations and monopolies. For some years the Combines Investigation Act has not been utilized to the full extent of its appropriate functions. For this reason it has not been achieving the results which were in mind when it was enacted. In some degree this has been due to certain provisions in the legislation itself. Even before the amendments of 1935 were added I think it was the view of those who had its administration in charge that the

act stood in need of improvement. Some of the amendments made in 1935 had the effect of weakening rather than strengthening the act. Those amendments, most of which were introduced in the senate, tended rather to restrict the scope of the act, or to add to the difficulties of its enforcement. It will be recalled that during the last session the government sought to remove one of the outstanding disabilities, but the amending bill was twice rejected by the senate.
It is now proposed to restore the vigour of the Combines Investigation Act and to make it more effective by the amendments set forth in the bill now before the house. Among the changes proposed are the following :
1.	The administration of the act under the Minister of Labour by a single commissioner devoting his whole time to this work, instead of by a commission whose members have other important responsibilities, relating- to tariff matters.
2.	Provision for the appointment, if necessary, of temporary special commissioners to conduct single investigations.
3.	The revision and extension of the definitions of merger, trust and monopoly.
4.	The removal of the provision enacted in 1935 which prevents the use, in subsequent criminal proceedings against the person who produced them, of documents which a person is required to produce in an investigation.
5.	An increase in the maximum penalties for the violation of the act.
6.	The omission of the section added in 1935 which prevents the trial of a person upon the same evidence or at the same time under the Combines Investigation Act and section 498 of the criminal code.
These are the more important of the changes contemplated in the bill before the house. Other changes are proposed, including a revision of the provisions added to the act in 1935, at the instance of the senate, with regard to the returning of documents to persons producing them in an investigation under the act; the strengthening of the provisions relating to the liability of any director who acquiesces in an offence committed by his company; and new sections providing when fines are to be payable to the dominion, that rights to civil action are not intended to be affected, and that trials of persons charged with forming unlawful combines shall be by superior courts of criminal jurisdiction only.
I believe it would be the wish of the house if I were first to deal with the reasons which favour the transfer of the administration of the Combines Investigation Act from the

Combines Investigation-Mr. Rogers
tariff board to a single commissioner. The right hon. the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) expressed a particular interest in this feature of the bill when a few days ago the resolution was under discussion.
The Canadian, legislation in connection with combines represents an orderly and propres-sive development over a period of almost fifty years. In reshaping the legislation, as we are seeking to do at this time, we have sought to incorporate the best features of the several acts which have preceded the present act. The type of administrative agency is naturally one of the most important considerations to be kept in view.
When we turn back to the earlier attempts to deal with combines in Canada we find that various types of administrative agencies have been employed from time to time. For example, the Restraint of Trade Act of 1889, which is now section 498 of the criminal code, made no special provision for the investigation of alleged offences. Several methods of administration were used in subsequent legislation. The Combines Investigation Act of 1910 provided for a preliminary inquiry by a supreme court judge and subsequent investigation by a board composed of three members, which board was appointed specifically for the purpose of investigating a particular complaint. In 1919, during the brief existence of the board of commerce, which was established to administer the Combines and Fair Prices Act, the agency employed was a board of three commissioners.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Was it not called the court of commerce?


Norman McLeod Rogers: My impression is that it was the board of commerce.


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: The board of commerce.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Under the Combines Investigation Act of 1923 it was planned to have all important investigations conducted by a commissioner especially appointed for the purpose, whose status and powers were much the same as those of a royal commissioner appointed under the inquiries act. At the same time provision was made for preliminary inquiry by the registrar. The office of registrar was created by the legislation of 1923 and his duties were in the nature of those belonging to an executive secretary in connection with the administration of the act. The registrar's powers in the matter of conducting inquiries were the same as those of the ad hoc commissioners and were sufficient to enable him, if called upon, to carry an investigation to its completion. In
the years 1930 to 1935 the practice of conducting inquiries with special commissioners fell into disuse. The previous administration appointed only one commissioner; all the other investigations were conducted by the registrar.
One disadvantage of the latter method, that is, inquiry by the registrar, was that while the act required that the reports of commissioners should be made public, it did not contain the same requirement with respect to reports of the registrar. Consequently, few reports were made public during the period to which I refer. This had the effect of limiting the usefulness of an act which had been designed to attain its purpose, at least in some measure, through the full use of publicity.
There are certain inherent disadvantages in having all extensive inquiries made by special commissioners. If it is necessary to secure a suitable person to act on a temporary basis, there is a distinct possibility of inaction or undue delay occurring in dealing with matters that should be given prompt attention. The experience gained by such temporary investigators is ordinarily not available for use in subsequent inquiries. In the past recourse has been had to certain men in a number of investigations, and some members of the bar of Canada gained considerable experience in conducting inquiries of this kind, but the fact remains that when you do have these investigations conducted by special commissioners you are deprived in a large measure of the advantage which comes from continuity of experience in this particular field of inquiry.
In adopting the principle of utilizing a permanent investigating agency and in deciding upon the appropriate type of such agency, we believe that the advantages point definitely to the single commissioner as proposed in this bill, rather than to the type of commissioner established by the 1935 legislation. It is quite true, as was suggested in the debate on the resolution, that we have not really had an opportunity of testing the utility of the administration of the combines act under the trade and industry commission. In the year and half since the combines act was placed under the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission that commission has not been able to proceed with its work, largely because of the fact that the legislation was before the courts for the determination of its validity. At the same time the Combines Investigation Act has been handicapped in other directions, not merely in connection with its status under the act but

Combines Investigation-Mr. Rogers
because of the disabilities already referred to which were imposed by certain of the 1935 amendments.
The objection I desire to make to the administration of the Combines Act by the tariff board in its capacity as the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission is not directed in any way to the personnel of the tariff board. It is directed rather to the fact that the tariff board has its own proper functions to discharge, and we do not feel that the Combines Act ought to be administered by a board which has other more immediate duties imposed upon it. We believe that the Combines Act should not be relegated to a position of secondary importance. Moreover, the work of the tariff board is such that on occasion it might very well find it embarrassing to have to act in its dual capacity and deal with business firms which have been dealt with in its capacity as a tariff board. There is likely to be an interference with the ordinary work of the tariff board as well as with the adequate enforcement of the Combines Act. For these reasons we are convinced that in the interests of efficiency, not only in the administration of this act but in the working of the tariff board, the combines act should be placed under a single commissioner who can devote his full time to the investigations which may be necessary under the terms of the legislation.
I concede at once that an organization different from that proposed by this bill would be necessary if the legislative program of the government were intended to provide for direct state regulation and control of trade and industry as a substitute for regulation by competition, or if it were to provide for agreements to fix prices and restrict trade with the responsibility placed upon the government to see that fair price levels were maintained. I should like to make it quite clear that it is not the policy of the present government to undertake what appears to us the unwise and impossible task of the direct control of prices, thereby accepting the ultimate responsibility of telling business the quantities and kinds of goods that must be produced and how they shall be distributed. It is its policy in this matter to do its utmost rather to clear the channels of domestic trade, and for this purpose to eliminate artificial price agreements, to restore competitive conditions wherever found necessary for the adequate safeguarding of the interests of the public. This policy with respect to the combines act can be carried out efficiently as well as economically by a single commissioner, with sympathetic government support, and with sufficient facilities to enable him to initiate and complete the necessary investigafMr. Rogers.]
tions, to make full reports of his findings, and concern himself with such further action as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of the act.
I come now to the provision which is made in the bill for the appointment of special commissioners where circumstances require such a course. It is recognized that there may be on occasion a number of applications which would require simultaneous investigation. It has been thought wise, therefore, to provide against undue delay in such case, by making provision whereby special commissioners may be appointed to carry out particular investigations. In the future, moreover, if it should be found desirable to increase the single permanent commissioner by two additional commissioners and to set up what might be termed a separate commission to deal with the Combines Investigation Act, that can be done. For the present, however, we feel it is wise rather to proceed with a single commissioner in order to determine whether or not the work can be done satisfactorily in that way.
A question was raised when the resolution was before the house as to the expense involved in this change, and I believe it was the view of the right hon. leader of the opposition that from the standpoint of expense this was possibly a retrograde step. I examined with some care the debate which took place in this house when the 1935 amendments were under discussion, and while it is quite true that the question of expense was brought forward at that time as one of the reasons for placing the administration of the combines act under the tariff board instead of under a separate commission, it was also pointed out by the then minister of trade and commerce, Mr. Hanson, that provision was made in the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission Act for an increase of personnel and staff if such should be found necessary to deal with the additional duties conferred upon the tariff board in its capacity as the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission. So I do not believe it follows of necessity that any unnecessary expense is involved by transferring the administration of the combines act from the tariff board to the Department of Labour and placing its administration under a single commissioner.
I should like to turn now to certain new definitions which are incorporated in the bill which is before the house. A change is made in the definitions of the words "merger" and "monopoly." In the 1935 legislation, as originally introduced, an improvement was made in giving to these words a definition which made it clear that the act applied to monopolistic concerns as well as to complete monopolies;

Combines Investigation-Mr. Rogers
in other words, to large or dominating concerns which may not come within the category of either complete monopoly or combination. I am sure it will be within the knowledge of all members of this house that one of the characteristic features of recent industrial organization has been the growth of large scale enterprises of the character of monopolies, trusts and mergers. Obviously a concern of that kind may find it possible either to completely dominate a particular market or at any rate to exercise undue control over prices of a particular commodity; but at the same time there may be nothing of the character of a combination in the activities of such a trust *or monopoly. It seemed desirable, therefore, again in the interests of the public, that the legislation should have clearly in view the possibility of a monopoly or of a trust seeking to control production and prices in a manner detrimental to the public interest. Prior to 1935 the act applied to monopolies as well as to combinations, but no definitions of monopoly were provided in the act. Consequently there was some uncertainty as to whether the word applied to anything other than a monopoly, meaning a concern having the exclusive power of dealing in some particular commodity. That is to say, under the previous provision, it seemed to be required of those who sought to bring actions against a monopoly under the act that they should prove that that particular monopoly had an exclusive power. As a matter of fact in our economic life one rarely finds what may be termed a perfect monopoly except in so far as that monopoly has been created by the issue of a Datent or copyright or by the possession of some franchise.
The 1923 act had followed earlier legislation *in attempting, by the use of the words "mergers, trusts and monopolies, so called," to prevent the word from being given too narrow an interpretation and being made applicable only to complete monopolies. Language more nearly exact was necessary, however, in a criminal statute, to indicate the meaning which was clearly intended. In the absence of a definition of monopoly the public might very well have drawn the conclusion that price control by a monopoly did not fall within the provisions of the act, and was entirely lawful. Such a corporation might very well be declared to be outside the scope of the act as being neither a monopoly nor a party to a combination. To meet this situation the price spreads commission of 1935 proposed that the combines act should be amended to include a more comprehensive definition of monopolistic practices and of monopolies themselves. The definition which the former government introduced in its bill to amend the Combines Investigation
Act in 1935 would have implemented the recommendation of the price spreads commission. The definition, however, was not enacted as it was introduced. It was amended in another place, and it was incorporated in the act which finally received royal assent in a form which was quite different from that which was contemplated by the price spreads commission or by the government when the bill was introduced!. In its final form it provided that the word "monopoly" should be made applicable to situations where one or more persons substantially or completely controlled a class or species of business in which he or they were engaged. But this definition, again, was made subject to the following proviso which was introduced by the senate:
This subsection shall not be construed or applied so as to limit or impair any right or interest derived under the Patent Act, 1935, or under any other statute of Canada.
The senate also secured another amendment of the definition of "monopoly" which limited that definition to businesses which dealt in commodities. Thus certain monopolies or monopolistic organizations which had been subject to the provisions of the act when there was no definition of monopoly were given exemption from the act under this new provision. In other words, the definition of monopoly as it was finally incorporated in the act of 1935 appeared specifically to exclude what might be termed monopolies in relation to services as distinct from monopolies in relation to commodities.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Does this act propose an
investigation of patent monopolies?


Norman McLeod Rogers: An investigation may be
had wherever there is an allegation that a combine or a monopoly is operating to the detriment of the public.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Even under a patent grant?


Norman McLeod Rogers: I believe I am correct in
that. I shall be glad to look it up before the hill is in committee. But my distinct impression is that patents are not excluded, because as a matter of fact there is a definite provision whereby a patent may be revoked if it is found that the concern which has the patent has been using its powers in a way contrary to the public interest.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I do not wish to discuss it now, but I think the minister should consider whether he is at liberty to do that, first, under the convention, and second, as to whether under the convention there is not an ample procedure for dealing under the convention with that sort of monopoly by the terms of the Patent Act itself.

Combines Investigation-Mr. Rogers


Norman McLeod Rogers: There is of course a provision in the Patent Act for revocation. I shall be glad to take up that matter, and perhaps it can be brought forward and dealt with further when the bill is in committee.
This exemption to which I referred was authorized in spite of the fact that the price spreads commission had just condemned the unwarranted suppression of new patents as an abuse of a publicly-conferred privilege and had recommended that more effective use should be made of sections of the Combines Act when it appeared that these tariff duties and patents had facilitated the development of monopolies inimical to the public interest. That is the phrase used in the report of the price spreads commission. If any unreasonable advantage is obtained at the expense of the public by any monopoly or quasimonopoly as a result of misuse of privileges accorded to it by the Patent Act or the Customs Tariff or any other statute of Canada, there would seem to be no sound reason why an investigation should not be made into its affairs under the combines act or why the penalties of the act should not apply if the interests of the public have suffered. That after all has been the standard which. has prevailed constantly in the Canadian anticombines legislation. When the anti-trust law known as the Sherman Act was passed in the United States the purpose was rather to condemn a monopoly qua monopoly, to condemn a trust by the mere fact that it was a trust and proved to be such upon evidence being adduced to that effect.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The contest was in the proof of it.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The contest was in the proof. But subsequently

I believe I am correct in this-the courts applied a less rigid rule, the rule of reason, so that in effect the anti-trust legislation in the United States tended more and more to conform to that established in Canada. In other words, it was required that there should be some proof that public interest was prejudiced by the existence of the trust or monopoly.
In the present bill the definition of monopoly is intended to cover all commercial monopolies. In other words, the exemptions which were added by the senate amendments of 1935 are excluded in the definition of monopoly which is found in this bill. It will include not only any one or more persons who "substantially control any class or species of business," but also those who "have such control over the supply or distribution of or the demand for products of any class or species of business as to enable such person

or persons to maintain, enhance or substantially modify or control prices of such products." What I have just stated is in terms the definition of monopoly which will be found within the bill which is now before the house. The inclusion of such corporations within the definition of monopoly does not mean that they are thereby condemned under the act. It does mean that they can be subject to investigation under the act when circumstances warrant such investigation. Before they can be convicted of any offence against the act it must be proved that their activities as have been such as to be prejudicial to the public interest. They must be brought within the category of monopoly, and it must -be proved that they have operated or are likely to operate against the interest of the community.
The word "trust" is used in the act as having the same meaning as the word "monopoly." Mergers are separately defined to include all amalgamations of businesses, but only mergers which use their powers to injure the public will be liable to investigation or prosecution under the act. It cannot be made too clear, Mr. Speaker, that the purpose of the present bill is not to prevent or discourage trade combinations, or to condemn large organizations of business merely because of their size. Expansion of business has been a part of the development of recent years in this and other countries. Large scale business enterprises of themselves need not operate to the public detriment. Unquestionably some of them may operate to the public advantage through the economies which are brought about through the large scale operations they conduct. There is nothing in the bill which condemns monoplies, trusts or mergers as such. The purpose rather is to bring this particular type of organization within the scope of the legislation in order that, if a monopoly, trust or merger should be controlling prices to the public detriment, investigations may proceed under the act and penalties may be applied if the offence has been committed. We are anxious rather to prevent abuses of powers than to pillory or to describe as unlawful a particular form of economic organization.
I come now to the question of penalties; and here too, on the basis of the experience of recent years, it is proposed to introduce a change. In the first place there is no intention at all to depart from the use of publicity as a main factor in accomplishing the purposes for which the Combines Investigation Act was designed. I am not sure that publicity should be described precisely as a penalty: it is more of the nature of a

Combines Investigation-Mr. Rogers
remedy than a penalty. Publicity is not always enough. It has to be realized that there will always be some individuals who will not be prevented through fear of publicity from attempting to reap additional rewards in the way of price control which might come to them through a use of their extraordinary powers. These may be individuals who are not greatly deterred by publicity because of their personal viewpoint or the nature of their business, or corporations which owing to the anonymity which often clothes the operations of incorporated companies, or because the companies' responsibilities are shared amongst directors and officers, may be peculiarly insensitive to public opinion. For such companies and individuals penalties must be provided in the form of fines or imprisonment which will serve both as a deterrent and as a suitable punishment. It is felt, in view of the growth of modern business corporations, and particularly the growth of large scale operations, that if the act is to be efficiently enforced there should be an increase in the maximum penalties which may be imposed. It is evident that a penalty of $25,000 might be insufficient in many cases to deter a large corporation from violating the act when in a few weeks or months it might make well over this sum in additional profits by continued operation as a combine. By this bill the maximum penalties which may be imposed by the act are increased from $10,000 to $25,000 in the case of individuals and from $25,000 to $100,000 in the case of corporations. The maximum term of two years' imprisonment is retained, but under the act as amended a court may impose both fine and imprisonment.
I should like to make it clear at this point that these are maximum penalties. Fines may range from a merely nominal amount to $100,000. It will be the duty of the courts, not of the commissioner, to determine the extent of the guilt of each convicted member of any illegal combine, and to determine what penalties are appropriate as a punishment, and sufficient to deter others from operating along similar lines.
This brings me then to another group of amendments, which have to do with the use of evidence in prosecutions. I mentioned at the beginning that at the last session of parliament the government had introduced an amendment touching upon this point, which was rejected by the senate. This bill includes an amendment to a section which was before parliament a year ago. This section relates to the use in criminal proceedings of documents which have been previously received from
witnesses during an investigation under the Combines Investigation Act.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Which section is that?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is it No. 37?-I hardly think that is the one the senate dealt with.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The amendment we sought to make last year was to correct an amendment which had been introduced by the senate in the previous legislation of 1935. Under the senate amendment it was made impossible, as I recall, for a document which had been produced during an investigation under the Combines Investigation Act to be used thereafter in a criminal prosecution founded upon that inquiry. Last year in the amendment introduced by the government we sought to have that corrected, but the senate stood upon its ground, and by what is now proposed we seek once more to have that original defect corrected. In other words we do not believe that documents which are introduced during ar inquiry should, as it were, find sanctuary during the period of inquiry and not be usable thereafter in a criminal prosecution which might be founded upon it.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I was inquiring where that is dealt with in this bill.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I wonder if that might be left until we are in committee?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes.


Norman McLeod Rogers: The section relates to the use in criminal proceedings of documents which have been previously received from witnesses during an investigation under the Combines Investigation Act. When the act was passed in 1923 it contained a provision that no oral evidence which a witness was ordered to give in an investigation could be used against that witness in a subsequent criminal proceeding, thus giving a much broader exemption than that contained in section 5 of the Canada Evidence Act with respect to the answers of witnesses. The act of 1923 contained no provision, and none is contained in the Canada Evidence Act, which would prevent documents which a person was required to produce at an investigation from being used against that person in a subsequent trial. The restrictive provision to that effect was inserted in the Combines Investigation Act by an amendment introduced by the senate in 1935.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What the minister has done is merely to allow the Canada Evidence Act to operate?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes, I think that is it. There is no specific reference to it here. At the session of 1936, as I have already men-

Combines Investigation-Mr. Rogers
tioned, the government introduced a bill to restore this section to its former effect. The senate refused to accept the amendment, and persisted in its refusal. I think one can only assume that the refusal was due to a misunderstanding on the part of members of the other house as to the purpose and effect of the amendment; for it provides no special rule of law that is not applicable to documentary evidence required of witnesses under many other statutes which provide for investigations. It will still be necessary in any prosecution under the Combines Investigation Act to prove documents by the same means as are employed under other statutes, that is, without the obligatory assistance of the accused. The oral testimony which a witness gives in an investigation under this act cannot be used against him in the trial which follows the investigation. Exactly this procedure would be employed in criminal proceedings following an investigation under other statutes, such as the Inquiries Act, the Natural Products Marketing Act, the Tariff Board Act and the various security fraud prevention acts which operate in several provinces. If the legislation were to provide that such documents could not be used merely because they had formed part of the evidence in a previous investigation, counsel conducting a prosecution would find himself unduly and improperly hampered in his work.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I take it the effect of this legislation would be to leave it to the court to determine in each specific case whether or not evidence is admissible.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I believe so. The Canada Evidence Act would apply. In other words, documents brought forward under the Inquiries Act or this act would not find sanctuary thereby.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The fact that they had been produced would have no effect at all, as I read it.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Yes. The section dealing with this matter is now submitted in revised form, which makes oral evidence inadmissible in any subsequent criminal proceeding, instead of only such oral evidence as a witness may be required to give in obedience to an order. The new section does not give the present special protection to documents produced by witnesses.
These are the changes in the previous legislation contemplated in the bill now before the house. I doubt whether it is necessary to review in any extensive way the conditions in Canada which render it particularly advisable that legislative action should be taken 
at this time to improve and strengthen the various provisions of this act. There are indications in many directions that the internal trade of the country is, even more than when the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) so described it in 1933, enmeshed by secret understandings and by artificial price agreements and other methods of price control. That statement of conditions in 1933 was confirmed abundantly by evidence brought before the price spreads commission in 1935. It is notable that the price spreads commission, as one of its primary recommendations, proposed that the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission should carry out a rigorous administration of the Combines Investigation Act.
It is unfortunate that certain of the changes made in the act in 1935 had an effect opposite to that which was intended when the legislation was brought down in this house by the government of that day. In the circumstances of the past few years the combines act has not been applied to these conditions in the active way in which otherwise it could have been applied, and it would seem that some business organizations, quite naturally from their point of view, may have interpreted this inaction as a confirmation that their activities did not come within the scope of the Combines Investigation Act. The enactment of this measure and its enforcement will do much, we believe, to restore a healthy competitive condition and to eliminate in large measure price fixing methods which in some commercial fields have operated so decidedly against the public interest.
It follows that the administration of this act will not involve the sanctioning of any selected price fixing agreements either because the prices which may be fixed are likely to prove reasonable or for any similar reasons. As I mentioned a short time ago, it is not the intention of this government to set up machinery which will attempt the task of the regulation of industry or the control of prices. Price competition, it is certain, is a basic essential of a competitive system. No government can or should attempt, under the present industrial system in this part of the world, to decide what are likely to prove to be the reasonable prices for countless commodities and services. On the other hand, if artificial obstructions are removed so that competitive conditions may prevail, prices will tend much more readily to conform to their proper levels as determined by the market's appreciation of their utility.
To effect this needed clearing of the channels of trade it is not considered necessary or desirable to institute any wholesale series of

Combines Investigation-Mr. Bennett
prosecutions of alleged combines. Perhaps at this point I ought to mention that the provision of the previous act which permitted a preliminary inquiry to be made is repeated in the legislation which is now before the house, and that opportunity which is afforded the commissioner to hold a preliminary inquiry is of itself a protection against frivolous or vexatious complaints. Through a preliminary inquiry very often the commissioner may find that there is no sound basis for any further proceeding, and in past experience I think this safeguard has been found most useful. But while there is no intention of carrying out a wholesale series of prosecutions of alleged combines of the nature of an inquisition under this act, as I have said, I should make it perfectly clear also that these amendments are designed to strengthen and fortify the act in order that it may accomplish the purpose for which it was originally designed. We are anxious that these new forms of industrial organizations which operate within the national community shall not be permitted to use the extraordinary powers which come from expansion in a way which will operate against the public interest. It is believed that the Combines Investigation Act, as set out in the amendments to previous legislation incorporated in this bill, will provide the government with an instrument suitable to carry out the purposes I have indicated.
To conclude, Mr. Speaker, it may be said that the purpose of the present bill is to widen the scope of the present act; to establish a full time administrative agency; to provide for more suitable and workable provisions with respect to the use of evidence; to facilitate the greater use of publicity as a remedial measure and to provide more suitable and more effective penalties for offences. Finally I would submit that there has been no more appropriate time than the past few years, with the very striking disparity between the loss of income suffered by many and the artificially maintained prices and restrictions imposed by others, to serve as a demonstration of the need for a vigilant application of the sound principles which lie at the foundation of this legislation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out a few moments ago there has been very little time in which to carefully consider the provisions of this statute. However, in the main the statute follows the provisions of the existing law except in particulars to which reference has been made by the minister.
I think there are two or three instances in the bill in which there have been misprints or something has been omitted. For instance,
the hon. gentleman referred to the question of patents. Section 32 of the new bill undertakes to deal with patents, and on the opposite page it is said that section 30 of the existing act is amended as underlined. Section 32 as printed leaves out subsections (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) of old section 30, and it does occur to me that section 32 unfortunately has left out what I would regard as the most important part of the old section.
In that regard I should like to point out what was indicated in days past in this chamber, namely that with respect to patents we must proceed with extreme care. Patents involve the idea of monopoly. The very essence of the granting of a patent is that you grant a monopoly. That is stated over and over again as the basis of patent legislation. It will be found that in the provisions of the law as it now stands in section 32 the patentee may be liable to penalties if he unduly prevents or lessens competition in the production or manufacture of goods; obviously therefore the patentee can do neither the one nor the other. I think that section will have to be carefully studied, for I am satisfied that as it is now printed the section is senseless. It merely states that if the owner controls the patent so as to contravene the provisions of section 34 of the act such patent shall be liable to be revoked, but section 34 of this act deals with penalties and fines, not with matters which are as important as was indicated in old section 30. I think all that has happened is that in printing the bill half a dozen lines have been left out, and that difficulty can be remedied by the minister looking into the matter carefully.
There is another point I should like to mention, dealing with the question of the enforcement of the law, and I see the minister is seized of that difficulty. He undertakes to meet it in a given way, but in practice I think the method he has adopted will hardly be found satisfactory. The administration of the criminal law is in the hands of the provinces, and this bill suggests that if the provincial authorities are not anxious to enforce the law a complaint may be laid by someone, a citizen or some other person who is affected; the attorney general of the dominion may be advised with respect to it, and he may appoint someone to deal with the situation. It is quite obvious that there can be no such interference with the provincial powers through our legislation-at least, as indicated in the last judgments of the privy council. It is one of the matters with which I still think this or some other

Combines Investigation-Mr. Bennett
parliament must deal. It is a matter to which on more than one occasion I have directed attention, and I have not been alone. One of the first speeches I heard in this chamber was delivered by the late W. F. Maclean, dealing with the necessity for making provision under our constitution for the enforcement of statutes by the federal power. It will be remembered that in the United States such provision exists. Of course they have federal judges, federal marshals and federal representatives of the Department of Justice who deal with the enforcement of the law of the nation itself, as distinct from those enforced by the representatives of the states.
* In this legislation the question of definitions becomes one of major importance. The extent to which the minister may be able to support the view he takes, with respect to some of them, is I think subject to some doubt, having regard to what has been said recently as to the right of the dominion to interfere with purely provincial enterprises or provincial companies which may not combine but on the other hand may have understandings or agreements. I am not going to express an opinion at this time in the matter, but if the minister is prepared to proceed with second reading to-day and. then leave it at that point, conceding to us the opportunity to study the bill in the meantime, we will go into details in committee and, I believe, he would serve his purpose. The bill could go to the committee stage, but the committee under the circumstances would not consider it until to-morrow or some following day.
Especially do I draw the minister's attention to the section to which I have just referred, and to those provisions of the statute which contemplate the enforcement of the legislation by the federal power. It is a consummation devoutly to be hoped for, but one the possibility of which under existing constitutional practice I doubt very much, particularly if the latest judgments of the privy council are to be relied upon.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I rise simply to say I am entirely agreeable to the procedure suggested by the right hon.. gentleman, and I would also thank him for his courtesy in facilitating the progress of the bill in the way he has indicated.


Mr. VICTOR QUELCH (Acadia):: Mr. Speaker, early in February I wrote the minister regarding the action of the Coleman Lamp and Stove Company in refusing to place the Merchants Consolidated Limited of Winnipeg on their wholesale list. I received a letter from him in reply stating that since it was suggested1 customs duties should be removed so as to permit similar goods to enter Canada 
free of duty, the question had been referred to the tariff board for consideration. The minister stated he understood the matter was then, receiving the attention of the board, and that any representations on the subject should be made to it. While that reply deals with the question whether similar goods are to be allowed into Canada duty free, it does not deal with the question whether the Coleman Lamp and Stove Company Limited, have the right to refuse to sell their goods to the Merchants Consolidated Limited., of Winnipeg. Would not that point come under the administration of the combines act? Upon investigation would it not be possible to compel the Coleman Lamp and Stove Company to sell their goods to the other company I have mentioned?


Norman McLeod Rogers: It seems to me the hon. member's question might be raised more properly when the bill is in committee. If there is any information I can give the hon. member on the point he has raised, I shall be glad to do so at that time. It is conceivable however that the facts as set forth in his letter should be brought to the attention of those in charge of the administration of the act, in order to determine whether or not they come within it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: One further point I intended to mention, and with the permission of the house I shall dio it at this time. When the measure of 1923 was passed the international convention then existing was not the one which now exists. There have been modifications of it. If before the bill is considered in committee the minister would carefully look into the convention, to which we are a subscribing party, for the purpose of ascertaining just what limitations are imposed upon our legislative rights, I think it might be desirable. .


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon. Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
On section 1-Short title.
Norman McLeod Rogers: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Progress reported.



HOME IMPROVEMENT LOANS


[Stage Direction]
Hon, CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved the second rfeading of and concurrence in amendment made by the

Supply-Mines and Resources
senate to Bill No. 11, to increase employment by encouraging the repair of rural and urban homes.
He said: The amendment made by the senate to the bill is found at page 3, and amendls section 8 at line fourteen. The senate has inserted after the word "provide" the words "what terms shall be inserted in the guarantee," so that the paragraph would then read:
(e) Provide what terms shall be inserted in the guarantee for the determination of the amount of loss sustained by an approved lending institution, and the procedure to be followed in making claims in respect of any guarantee given under this act.
The government is prepared to accept the
amendment, which, so far as I can discover, does not change the intent in the slightest degree.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Mines and geology-[DOT]
For explorations, surveys, mapping and investigations; for publication of English and French editions of reports, maps, illustrations, etc., relating thereto; and for salaries and wages of explorers, topographers and others, $366,000.
Mr. BARBER:: Could the minister give
particulars of the increase in this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount of $366,000 is
broken down into two parts, one covering explorations, surveys, mapping, investigations and salaries and wages of those engaged in the work, which totals $258,600, and the other covering the publication of English and French editions of reports, maps and illustrations which are put out once the field notes of the survey parties are coordinated and extended.


Harry James Barber: Is the increase of $16,000
for the extension of this work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think that is made up
mainly of statutory increases for those in the permanent service.


Harry James Barber: What work was carried on in British Columbia last season?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There were nine geological and six topographical parties in British Columbia last year.


Harry James Barber: There was some work
being carried on in the vicinity of Vancouver and on the lower mainland; has that been completed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This work is never really
completed. A party will work in a certain area and the work for that area will be completed once the notes are extended and the maps and other information based on the data gathered in the field put together, but when work is completed in one area there is generally another area where it must be continued.


Harry James Barber: That is just the point I was trying to make. This work was started in the district around Mission City and it will take at least another season to complete the work through to Hope. There was some doubt whether this work would be completed under the topographical survey vote. The district in question is very important in lumbering, logging and mining, and we are anxious to have this work completed.


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: A couple of years ago this parliament voted a million dollars for exploration work in the mining areas of Canada. Could the minister tell the committee how much of that was spent and for what purpose?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That was the vote passed in 1935?


George Halsey Perley: Yes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not the information at the moment as to how much of that was spent.


George Halsey Perley: Was it not spent mostly in 1936?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am advised that the greater part was spent in the summer and autumn of 1935. We had another vote last year for $350,000.


George Halsey Perley: That was a revote to complete the work, was it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, that was for new work. This is really an extension of the same work.


George Halsey Perley: The $350,000?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am unable to give my right hon. friend the information as to how much of that million dollar vote remained unexpended at the end of 1935.


Richard Bedford Bennett: At March 31, 1936.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the end of the period.


George Halsey Perley: How was this vote of $350,000 spent last year, and was it really a continuation of the work started in 1935?
Sup-ply-Mines and Resources


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There were nine geological and six topographical parties in British Columbia; there were two geological parties in the Northwest Territories; there were four geological parties in Alberta; there were five in Saskatchewan, one being engaged in Ottawa in compiling data obtained the previous year; there were five geological parties in Manitoba and five in Ontario; there were five geological and two topographical parties in Quebec; there were four geological parties in New Brunswick; there were three geological parties in Nova Scotia and one topographical party. In all, there were forty-five geological and nine topographical parties, one geological party being engaged in Ottawa.


George Halsey Perley: Does the minister consider that the information obtained by these parties justified the expense?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no hesitation in saying that I think the expense is justified. By the terms under which Manitoba and British Columbia came into confederation we have to maintain a geological service for those two provinces. As far as Quebec and Ontario are concerned, both provinces send out parties under their own mines branches. This work is carried on in cooperation with the mines branch at Ottawa in order to avoid duplication.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What about the Northwest Territories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We had two parties operating there last year. Of course, this work is entirely under federal government supervision.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is there any topographical work being carried on there?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My deputy advises me that there will be no aerial work carried on under this vote. Some aerial photographic work was carried on under the old department of the interior.


Harry James Barber: I asked a question a few moments ago as to whether this geological work would be continued.


Mr. HAYHURST:: Where are the four geological surveys operating in Alberta?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I might mention as an illustration of the value of the work done by these parties the circumstances that led to the development of the radium industry in the Northwest Territories. In 1900 the first geological party that ever went into the Great Bear lake area prepared a report upon their explorations, and that report lay in the archives of the department at Ottawa for

almost thirty years, until a prospector who was perusing the report was struck with a single sentence in it to the effect that there was evidence of cobalt blue on the shores of Great Bear lake. That led to his making an expedition to Great Bear lake, and carrying on an investigation into the extent of the cobalt mineral, and while doing so he discovered pitchblende ores which had escaped the observation of the geological party thirty years before. That was the beginning of the radium industry in Canada, developed as a result of these explorations of the Great Bear lake area. I mention that as an evidence of the value of gathering this field data, which is available to prospectors who wish to take advantage of it.
In reply to my hon. friend who asked as to parties operating in Alberta, one party was operating in the Edmonton and Peace Hills field, another in the Pekisko area, and two parties in southeastern Alberta, the latter two parties studying the geology more from the point of view of petroleum.


Harry James Barber: I think last year there was a topographical survey party with headquarters at Mission City on the lower mainland of British Columbia. I understand that another season will complete their work. Can the minister give me any encouragement that the work will be continued?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is now under consideration. The officials of the department are now mapping out the season's work, and I am advised that work will probably be continued in that area this year.


Mr. MacNICOL:: Would the minister tell the committee just in what way and by what methods the personnel of these parties throughout the country is selected?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The parties are headed by experienced geologists, as many as possible from the department itself. We also secure for chiefs of the parties some help from outside, in some cases professors of geology or mining at some of the universities. Then we endeavour to secure university students who are taking courses in geology or mining engineering, preferably third or fourth year students, because they are interested in the work and it has a direct bearing on the calling which they have selected for themselves in life. The ordinary help is secured in the usual way in the localities where the parties are working.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I hope the ordinary help is not selected in the same way that the ordinary help for the Post Office Department is selected. Can the minister assure us that

Supply-Mines and Resources
he uses a different and a fairer method than the Post Office Department follows in engaging temporary help for the Christmas rush?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should have to consult my colleague the Postmaster General to discover the method by which he selects his help. But I assure my hon. friend that we endeavour to get the help locally as far as possible, and I do not think there can be much criticism of the department in that regard.


Mr. McIVOR:: I should like to say for
the information of the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) that I submitted twenty-six names and got only one appointment, and the appointee was in his final year at engineering.


Mr. SPENCE:: I submitted many names and got no appointment.


Mr. PELLETIER:: As money is going to be spent for exploration purposes, would the minister tell us if by any chance any money is going to be spent for work on roads leading to mines? Would that be under this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Under what item would it come?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Under an item in the special supplementary estimates when they are brought down.


Mr. McNIVEN:: I understood the minister to say that four survey parties were operating in Saskatchewan. May I ask in what part of Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There were four parties in Alberta and five in Saskatchewan.


Donald Alexander McNiven: I understood the minister to say that four parties were operating in Saskatchewan and that one party was in Ottawa tabulating the material. Is that correct?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is correct. There was one party operating in the Fort Pitt area; another at Forster lake in the northern part of the province; another party in southwestern Saskatchewan, studying underground water resources, and another party in southwestern Saskatchewan at Riverhurst, carrying on exploratory work in oil surveys. There was a large party at Goldfields to investigate gold occurrences in that district.


Mr. TOLMIE:: Could the minister tell the committee what are the prospects of a profitable development of the magnetic iron ore of British Columbia at Texada island and other points in the province?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend very much information on that point, having nothing about it at the moment. I understand that they are not producing, but that it is a fairly good grade of ore.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Has any investigation been made of the deposits on Texada island? They are located at tidewater, with lime and everything else that is necessary, and with coal not far distant.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Reports have been published on these ores that my hon. friend speaks of, but I have not seen them myself and consequently I cannot speak with any knowledge.


Donald Alexander McNiven: Are the reports of these survey parties immediately available, and, if so, where can they be had?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They can be secured from the director of mines and geology. Of course, it takes a little time to put all the data into the form of a report. The field parties make their observations, and after they return from the field the report is compiled. As soon as available it is printed and ready for distribution. If my hon. friend has in mind some particular reports and will make inquiry of the director of mines and geology he can readily ascertain whether or not they are available at the present time.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Would the minister tell us something about the portion of the item that refers to forest products laboratories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We shall come to that a little later. The item which we are now considering does not relate to that.


Donald Alexander McNiven: On the border line between Saskatchewan and Manitoba is the extensive Flin Flon development, and on the western border between Saskatchewan and Alberta are the Goldfields deposits. It is estimated that there are some 8,000 square miles of the Cambrian shield in, the northern part of Saskatchewan. That is a most interesting formation, and it occurs to me that if an extensive survey were made this year or in succeeding years there might be some important developments in that area. I should like to know what is the intention of the department as regards survey work in the northern part of Saskatchewan.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Tentatively the department has had under consideration the sending of another party into the Goldfields area, that is in the lake Athabaska region, and also in what is known as the Cree lake area, which is, I am told, south and east of lake Athabaska.
Sup-ply-Mines and Resources

Whether it touches the particular area to which the hon member has alluded I do not know; I am informed that it does.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For maintenance of offices and museum; for purchase of instruments, chemicals, books of reference, museum equipment and specimens, and related supplies; for expenses of the Geographic Board of Canada; and for miscellaneous assistance and contingencies, $74,000.
Mr. ELLIOTT (Kindersley):: Will the
minister give us a breakdown of that item of expense for maintenance of offices and museum, -purchase of instruments, e-t cetera?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It includes the maintenance of offices, the maintenance of the museum, the purchase of instruments, chemicals for the mineralogical work and the assaying and the like; books of reference; miscellaneous assistance and contingencies; and the expenses of the Geographic Board of Canada, which has to do with the designation of geographical names. That takes up practically the whole vote. Then there is a small item of 83,000 for museum equipment, and another small item of $1,000 for the purchase of specimens for the museum. That side of the museum work has been left somewhat in the -background owing to the necessity of curtailing expenditures as much as possible.


Otto Buchanan Elliott: The annual report of the Department of Mines, March 1936, states that the work of the national museum is retarded by overcrowding.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think probably that is correct.


Otto Buchanan Elliott: Are there any proposals for the remedying of this condition?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that there has been some rearrangement of the office space, and that the difficulty alluded to in the report has been thereby overcome. We are endeavouring to operate as economically as possible. I think that in some cases our staffs are working under overcrowded conditions, but we are doing the best we can.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous-
To provide for payments in connection with the movements of coal under conditions prescribed by the governor in council and for the cost of administration thereof, $2,25-0,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Would the minister be good enough to make a clear and comprehensive statement as to this expenditure, showing where the subventions last year went, the extent of them, and what subventions it is 
proposed to continue? I indicated the other day that I had a communication-in fact I have had several communications-in connection with the matter. There is grave anxiety in the west in connection with the subventions, and likewise there is anxiety regarding portions of the subventions in eastern Canada, particularly with respect to the movement of Nova Scotia coal and the difficulties that have been experienced in connection therewith. Perhaps the hon. gentleman would make the matter clear.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There has been some
anxiety, I believe, about this question of coal subventions. It is not intended to make any change this year in the principle upon which subventions are based. That principle is that the subvention applies to put the Canadian producer in as good a position as the American producer, in certain areas and in certain markets. Obviously if the cost of producing American coal increases and the cost of producing Canadian coal remains stationary, under the operation of the order in council upon which the subventions are based the total amount paid would be reduced. Conversely, if the cost of Canadian coal advances and American coal costs remain stationary, the subventions would increase. Last year there was a slight reduction in certain cases in the actual cash per ton paid by way of subvention. That was due to the fact that American costs had increased, consequently it did not require the same amount to bring about the equalization upon which the order in council applying the subventions is based. When we come to the amount of subventions paid, we did not provide enough money last year. It appeared to be enough in the light of the experience of the previous year, but the expansion in business and the increased shipments of coal left us short in our provision.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Would the minister state the amount of subventions paid and to whom they were paid, commencing say in western Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I find that in the calendar year 1936 the amounts in round numbers were as follows:
Nova Scotia	$1,573,000
New Brunswick	 15,000
Alberta	 307,000
Alberta-Ontario movement.. 163,000
Saskatchewan	 38,000
British Columbia	 113,000
It is paid partly to the railways. I have not the details here, if my right hon. friend means the actual recipients.

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Richard Bedford Bennett: I know that the railways received some, of course, but I should like to have on Hansard a record of the persons or corporations to whom the subventions were paid, and the amounts for the calendar year. The minister can obviously see the reason. The auditor general's report for the year 1936 will not be available until next year, so that this is the only opportunity to secure the information. I can readily understand that the minister has not the information at the moment. We can either let the item stand, or he can give the information later. There are some further questions I desire to ask with respect to subventions, particularly with respect to some of the western subventions and the apprehension some have as to the possible curtailment of them. I was going to predicate my questions upon the answers given to the question I have just asked.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think I can have the
information available after the six o'clock recess. Meantime we might continue discussion of the item and then let it stand until after recess.


Mr. STEWART:: I should like to know
the quantities of coal moved as a result of these subventions.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Nova Scotia coal moved,
1.681.000	tons.


Richard Bedford Bennett: To Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It would be to Quebec
and Ontario. For instance, a considerable quantity moved to Noranda, I think some
225.000	to 250,000 tons. Then a very considerable amount was moved to the International Nickel Company at Sudbury. In New Brunswick the total tonnage on which the subvention applied was 20,953 tons; in Alberta and British Columbia, the Crowsnest area, 298,000 tons; Alberta-Ontario movement, 65,229 tons.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the minister
would make clear how that Alberta-Ontario item is split up. Part of it moved to what I would call the Toronto urban area, and I think it moved as far east as Ignace. It will be remembered that there was provision for the movement as far east as Ignace. I should like to know to what extent it came east to Winnipeg on the main lines, so to speak, and the diversion down to the urban centres of Ontario.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The figure I have just given, 65,229 tons, is the domestic coal movement to Ontario. The other movement to which my right hon. friend refers is probably in connection with the railway requirements.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Steam coal.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I shall endeavour to get the information on both.


John Ritchie MacNicol: A considerable volumr of Nova Scotia coal is imported into Ontario. I use some myself in some of my buildings. The board of education in Toronto uses a lot of it. I wonder what will be the effect on Ontario importations of Nova Scotia coal of the proposed importation of Russian coal. If there is any effect from the proposed importation of 250,000 tons a year will the minister require the additional $300,000 that he asks for in the estimates? Because if Ontario and Quebec are to use 250,000 tons of Russian coal that will mean 250,000 tons less of Nova Scotia coal.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think it will have the effect my hon. friend mentions.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The Russian coal has to be sold somewhere, and the price would not permit of its being sold in Nova Scotia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Nova Scotia coal is steam coal. The Russian coal, if any, that will be imported under the arrangement, is anthracite. They do not compete with each other.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Can the minister give the amount of coal produced in Nova Scotia prior to the granting of the subsidies and the amount produced since the subsidies have been in effect? I should like to find out what effect the subsidies have had in increasing the production of coal in Nova Scotia.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not that information here. How far back does my hon. friend wish to go?


Abraham Albert Heaps: Not very far back; just prior to the time the subsidy was granted. What amount of coal has been produced in Nova Scotia since the subsidy has been in effect?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Subventions have been in effect, as I recall it, for some eleven or twelve years.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I was wondering whether the subventions have had any appreciable effect in increasing production in Nova Scotia. If they have not, I do not see the use of continuing them. If they have had some effect, their continuance might be worth while.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is another angle to that question which perhaps my hon. friend has overlooked, and it is this. Of recent years, say within the last ten years, fuel oil has to a considerable extent displaced coal for the heating of dwellings and also to a certain



Supply-Mines and Resources
extent in providing power for driving ships and so on. So if my hon. friend were to base his judgment on a comparison of the coal production in Nova Scotia say twelve or fifteen years ago with the present coal production under the subventions, he would need to take into account several other factors as well.


Abraham Albert Heaps: That is true, but there was quite a bit of oil in use prior to the establishment of the subventions, and I should think that would be taken into consideration. What I wished to find out was whether these subventions have had the effect originally intended.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Inasmuch as at least a large portion of the subvention has been paid during the five years from 1930 to 1935 I think I should say to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Heaps) that but for the subventions the mines of Nova Scotia would have been practically shut up. The reason is obvious. It is not a question of fuel oil alone, as the minister has said. There was another question, that of the prices at which coal was being thrown upon Canadian markets from the United States, and other countries as well. It was impossible, even with the tariff increases that were put in effect, for the coal from Nova Scotia to compete with the fuel that came from Virginia, for instance. All hon. members who are familiar with the cost at which fuel from that locality was being offered for sale to upper Canadian factories will realize the situation, and the subventions barely made it possible under the conditions that then existed for those mines to supply the steam coal requirements of upper Canadian factories.
On Friday last I was talking to a manufacturer who had continued to use Nova Scotia coal. He told me that the pressure to utilize other fuels imported from outside Canada had been very great, but under the circumstances he felt that the action taken by the country was right; he was endeavouring to do what he could to assist, and he gave his reasons, which struck me as being eminently sound. I think I can say without fear of successful contradiction, however, that but for these subventions the island of Cape Breton would have been in a very serious condition indeed. Since it did not result in any political advantage to the particular government that happened to be in power during those years I can speak of it with much more certainty than perhaps I otherwise could. That this is a fact can be amply demonstrated by anyone who cares to take the trouble to look into the matter.
As far as the west is concerned I can only say that but for the subventions the coal
[Mr. Crerar.)
would not have moved at all east of, we will say, Swift Current. In Winnipeg they have had a terrific struggle to establish any market for their coal as against coal coming there from the United States. The increase in duty that we imposed upon certain types of United States coal had some effect in decreasing the amount of coal that was imported. Last year substantial quantities of German coal came into this country, and in one or two instances I am afraid it came in under the name of Welsh coal. That, however, is not the type of coal with which we are now dealing, as the minister said a moment ago. We are dealing not with coal of the anthracite type but with bituminous coal. It will be remembered that the United States passed a statute by which they provided that there should be a duty against our lignite if under our tariff we imposed a duty against their lignite, and we did put them on the free list, as will be recalled. There was some very small movement of lignite from what you might call the southern Alberta fields into the states contiguous to Canada, directly south, and, as the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) is aware, there was some movement of coal from Great Britain and other quarters to Vancouver which seriously affected the position of the coal industry of Vancouver island, about which he used to speak so feelingly. I suppose now, under brighter skies and in different days, there is less necessity for the hon. member to direct attention to those hardships. The unwillingness of the hon. gentleman to participate in most debates that involve any reflection upon the present administration would indicate that the skies are much brighter even than I thought. Perhaps this may have the desired effect of getting the hon. member for Comox-Alberni to his feet so that we may hear from him.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Mr. Speaker, there is another side to this question, and it is a very tender point to the people at the head of the lakes. This coal subvention constitutes a protection to western coal and a duty on United States coal, and it has resulted in considerable unemployment at the head of the lakes. We have two large coal handling plants there; the machinery in one of those plants costs about three and a half million dollars. As the right hon. leader of the opposition has said, we are under brighter skies now, and I had hoped that these subventions would be very materially decreased and that the coal coming into Fort William might go a considerable distance further west, though perhaps not as far as Winnipeg. Our boats carry wheat east, and formerly they would bring back coal, so that these subventions

Supply-Mines and Resources
hit the shipping on the great lakes. We hope the day will come when there will be a considerable improvement in the amount of coal handled at the head of the lakes.


Mr. NEILL:: Despite the unkind remarks of the right hon. leader of the opposition I will give him credit for having been at the head of the government which first started the bonusing of coal on Vancouver island. I recall very clearly that after the election of 1930 a delegation waited upon the right hon. gentleman, who was then prime minister. That delegation consisted of a man from Nanaimo, a man from Cumberland-who was my late opponent, by the way-and myself. The other two members of the delegation were pressing the prime minister to impose a duty on fuel oil. The right hon. gentleman asked my opinion and I said I did not think that would be effective. I thought the better and more practical way would be to bonus the production of coal on Vancouver island, and my right hon. friend was pleased to say that he agreed with me. That was the procedure finally adopted, and a bonus of only twenty-five cents per ton was provided. Later on it was increased, but it all occurred while his government was in power, and I think if the other parties to the deal had played the game the result would have been very marked. At any rate I am quite free to say that his was the first and only government that did give us a bonus, and the benefits which resulted certainly were substantial.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And look what happened to him.


Alan Webster Neill: Possibly I was more concerned with what would happen to the hon. member for Comox-Alberni than with what might happen to the right hon. leader of the opposition.
I should like to ask the minister for certain information. Some of it he may be able to give me now, and if he has not the rest of it perhaps he will get it while he is getting the other information that has been requested. He has stated that the subvention to British Columbia for the calendar year 1936 amounted to $113,000. I should like to know how much of that amount was paid for coal produced on Vancouver island. I should like to know also how much of that was paid at the rate of fifty cents per ton and how much was paid at the other rate of a dollar a ton, because there are the two rates. Then I should like to ask the minister if there is any danger of an alteration, or any proposal to alter these rates of bonus during the ensuing year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With regard to the amount mentioned by my hon. friend, that was all paid on Vancouver island.


Alan Webster Neill: And how much was paid at the fifty cent rate?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the moment I cannot answer that.


Alan Webster Neill: The information could be obtained?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I dare say it could be secured.


Alan Webster Neill: Is there any proposal to change that bonus during the coming year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; that has not been under consideration so far.


Alan Webster Neill: And to whom was it paid?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We will secure that information also.
I might say a word in reply to what was said by the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Heaps) a moment ago. In the calendar year 1932 the total production of coal in Nova Scotia amounted to a little more than
4,000,000 tons, and the amount of subvention paid in that year was $710,000. Whether or not it was due to the subvention-and I assume it was an important factor-in 1936 there was an increase to over 6,500,000 tons. Unquestionably the payment of the subvention did have a definite bearing upon the total quantity of coal produced in Nova Scotia.


Abraham Albert Heaps: May we have similar figures for Alberta?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In 1931 the output in Alberta was 4,500,000 net tons, while in 1936 it exceeded 5,600,000 tons. In 1931 the total amount moved to Ontario was 23,400 tons and in 1936 it was slightly in excess of 65,000. In 1931 the subvention for the movement to Ontario was $127,000 and in 1936, $163,000.


Abraham Albert Heaps: It would be extremely difficult to get much information from the figures submitted, other than that between 1931 and 1936 there was an increase. There probably would have been an increase anyway, because 1936 was a better trading year than 1931.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; quite true.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not know by what
means we may estimate the beneficial effects of subventions to Alberta and Nova Scotia. Naturally I am anxious to see the coal mining industry in Canada in a prosperous condition. I know how bad it was back in 1930, and in years prior to that. I remember having been sent to Alberta about nineteen years ago to make an investigation in the coal mining industry, and at that time very little Alberta coal was being used in Manitoba. I remember that the Alberta coal pro-



'1362 COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Supply-Mines and Resources
duoers got busy in an effort to capture the Manitoba market, and they succeeded fairly 'well, without any subvention. As the minister must know, to-day the consumption of Alberta coal in Manitoba is very great; it has almost entirely supplanted the American anthracite formerly used in Manitoba for domestic purposes. I do not see why something along the same line could not be done without these large subventions. True, we have tried to bonus Alberta coal coming into Ontario, but I believe without much success. Had the effort been successful the amount of coal moved would no doubt have been considerably greater.
A few minutes ago the question was raised as to the comparative costs of coal in Canada and in the United States. I am always puzzled as to why the cost of production in the United States is so much less than it is in Canada. In these observations I am not referring to any particular mine or area, but am speaking in a general way. I know there are some mines in Nova Scotia which are expensive indeed to operate-I refer to the mines running under the sea, where costs of operation are extremely high-but there are other mines in that province and throughout Canada where the cost of production should not be any higher than it is in some of the United States mines. Yet one finds that the cost of coal at the mine mouth in Canada is probably fifty per cent higher than it is across the boundary line, and I cannot understand why the difference should be so great. Wages cannot be responsible for it, because the wage rate in the United States is just as high as it is in Canada. I wonder if the minister has any information he can give the committee showing comparative costs of producing coal in various mines of the United States and Canada, because after all if the subvention is based upon the difference in cost of production in the two countries, the first thing the department should find is the comparative cost. Only thus can we gain any intelligent idea as to why subventions must be granted to the coal mining industry in Canada.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the fuel board have in considerable detail the information to which the hon. member refers. In order to apply the subventions in accordance with the principle of law governing them, that information must be available. Of course the cost of production varies in different mines in Alberta, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia. This is an exceedingly difficult piece of legislation to administer to the satisfaction of all. In the operation of the subvention we must be guided

by the principle involved when subventions were originally granted, and apply it in the most intelligent manner. So far as my knowledge goes, and I am sure in this connection I speak correctly, it is applied without any discrimination.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Broadly I believe the rate is about one-seventh of a cent per ton per mile; am I correct?


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: Is that the basis on Vancouver island?


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, that is an export basis.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that in Saskatchewan and Alberta it works out to a ten per cent reduction in the freight rate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thought the largest subvention, payable from the maritimes to Ontario, was one-seventh of a cent per ton per mile. I may be wrong, because I am speaking from memory.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would not be certain of the amount, but I believe payment is based on that principle.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Arising out of what the minister has just stated to the committee, may I ask if it is the policy of the government to grant the same subvention to different mines in the same province?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not catch my hon. friend's question.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Would there be any difference in the subventions paid to the different mines in Nova Scotia?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, there is.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Is the hon. member referring to Nova Scotia mines only?


Abraham Albert Heaps: I was taking them as an example.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount of the subvention paid will vary with the cost of getting the coal into a particular market. For instance, the subvention on New Brunswick coal will be less than it is on Nova Scotia coal because Nova Scotia coal is further from the market.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Let me give an illustration. There are two mines in New Brunswick; in one costs of production are low while in the other they are high. Both mines want to send coal into Montreal. Would the subventions paid to each mine be the same?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If they were shipping by water, yes; if they were both shipping by rail, the subventions would be the same.

Supply-Mines and Resources


Abraham Albert Heaps: It would appear that costs of production are not a factor.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not a case of cost of production in two mines which may be located alongside each other in the same province; it is cost of production in the province as against cost of United States coal that would apply.


Mr. HARTIGAN:: Is it not more the fact that the coal is entering a competitive market? It is possible that coal could go into Montreal without being paid a subvention.


John Gordon Ross: I remember protesting some years ago against certain subventions which were being suggested at that time. They were referred to as experimental rates to enable Alberta coal to be brought into Ontario; the idea was to bring coal through provinces where the temperature goes to forty below to a province where it rarely goes below twenty above. I should like to know if in the payment of subventions we have reached the point where coal from one end of the country under subventions is meeting coal from the other end of the country under subventions, the two coals fighting for the same market. If we have not come to that point yet, I fear we shall reach it some day.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not yet but soon.


John Gordon Ross: I should like to find out something about this British Columbia subvention. What is the idea of paying a subvention on coal on Vancouver island when the boats call in there for bunkers? What is the basis of that subvention and is there any sense to it at all?


Richard Bedford Bennett: In so far as it was initiated by the last government, it is without sense; in so far as it has been continued by the present government, it is highly commendable.


John Gordon Ross: I would not say that; I would say it is without sense in connection with both governments.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The real basis is the high cost of production on Vancouver island. Perhaps the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) could debate this matter better than I.


William Hayhurst: Naturally we are anxious to get a Canadian market for Canadian coal. Alberta produces large quantities of coal and it would seem that the metal mining districts in northern Manitoba and Saskatchewan would be logical markets for Alberta coal. Has the minister any information as to where the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company at Flinflon get their supplies of coal?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand they purchase their coal in Alberta, but I am not certain just where in the province.


Mr. JOHNSTON (Bow River):: Do I understand the minister to say that there will be a reduction of about ten per cent, and that that will be based upon mileage as well as upon costs of production? How will that affect shipments of Alberta coal to the east?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I did not say that.


Charles Edward Johnston: Is it to be only on a production basis, with mileage not entering into the matter at all?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed it amounts to ten per cent. Obviously, if you are hauling your coal a thousand miles, you will be paying more freight per ton than if you are hauling it only five hundred miles, but the ten per cent would apply in both cases.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I should like to say a
word in support of these subventions. I made a special trip to Sydney, Nova Scotia, to ascertain just what these subventions meant in the way of emploj^ment for the miners of that district. I was driven out to Glace Bay and Waterford. I asked one of the principal mining men how much coal was being shipped to Ontario and how much employment was being provided through these subventions. We happened to be standing near the railway tracks and just then a train pulled by consisting of thirty-seven cars holding approximately 2,000 tons of coal. On the side of the train was a big poster stating, "Nova Scotia coal for Ontario." It must have taken quite a number of men to mine thirty-seven cars of coal. I asked this gentleman if they were sending out many trains like that one, and he told me that they were. If that train was only one of many, then these subventions must be providing considerable employment for Nova Scotia miners. As I said a moment ago, I have used Nova Scotia coal and I am highly in favour of bringing that coal into Ontario. We ship a considerable quantity of manufactured material to the eastern provinces and in my opinion it is good business to encourage interprovincial trade. I am convinced from what I saw at Glace Bay that the money provided for in this vote is money well spent for Canada.


Mr. YOUNG:: There is just one thing
wrong with the payment of subventions on coal. The two central provinces benefit greatly from the protection about which the hon. member who just sat down always talks. When those two provinces want to buy coal, the hon. member becomes very solicitous for

Supply-Mines and Resources
the miner in Nova Scotia and he wants to have Nova Scotia coal brought into Ontario. He wants Ontario to buy Nova Scotia coal, and he wants somebody to pay part of the freight rate for bringing that coal into Ontario. It seems to me there is something wrong in trying to get it both ways. First, he wants protection on manufactured goods to help out his working men, and then he wants part of the freight paid on coal to help out the working men in the outermost provinces of the dominion. I would say this, that this thing of protection and this thing of subventions are the curse of this country, and the sooner we get rid of them and get relief in both ways, the better it will be for Canadians from coast to coast.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: I should like to say a word on subventions. Those who come from Alberta or British Columbia or from the east realize fully that subventions are of great value. In the first place, to deal with what the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Young) has just said, if this coal is not protected and these subventions are not given, the money which Ontario would spend for coal would go to the United States, and that would be exceedingly poor business for Canada.


John Gordon Ross: Why?


John Horne Blackmore: Moreover, the railroads of this country, which are already a serious anxiety to Canada, would lose that traffic. That again is a serious matter. In addition to this, we would be keeping in employment United States working men instead of Canadians in Alberta, British Columbia, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. After all is said and done, the only thing that makes this country valuable is the number of people who are living here and who can continue to make a living here. If we once make conditions such that they can no longer make a living here, then they are no longer able to buy goods, and the railroads will lose the traffic from carrying the goods to them. So, in the last analysis, while I do not wish to advocate anything which will bring about an altogether artificial condition, we must grant the fact that it is a sound principle to protect up to a certain point at least.
I come from Alberta, and I know how we look at the matter out there. The subventions have meant a great deal to us.


An hon. MEMBER:: Sure.


John Horne Blackmore: There are some who are inclined to say "sure," but let them remember that Alberta is one of the nine provinces of this dominion, and if we destroy the

economic stability of any one province we seriously impair the economic condition of the whole country. Consequently, we must all be ready to give and take, to be open-minded in all these matters.
The coal subventions, let me tell the minister, have meant a great deal to Alberta, and I assume they have meant just as much to the other provinces. It is a matter of great satisfaction to us that these subventions have increased the amount of our trade, and I wish to commend them highly. I regret that the hon. member for Fort William1 (Mr. Mclvor), I think it was, had to report that there was a lack of employment at the head of the lakes because coal was no longer being brought in there from across the line. That is bad, but it goes to show how we can hardly help anyone without hurting somebody else. At the same time we must remember that when United States coal is coming in here, United States miners are mining that coal and United States railways are hauling it. So, on the whole, I think these subventions are to the advantage of the dominion even if it means that the men at the head of the lakes are hurt, as my hon. friend says; but we could probably find some way of compensating them. I would say to the minister that he is following a strictly sound policy when he furthers the application of these subventions; in fact, I would rather be inclined to think that if he increased them to some extent it would still be sound, so that we would not be on a strictly competitive basis with producers outside. After all, it does seem most unsound, when we have such a tremendous amount of coal in Alberta, and when that coal is of so many different kinds, that we should buy coal from across the line. So I do not hesitate for one minute to commend the minister for his activity in this respect, and to urge that he follow this plan in the future to a greater extent even than he has in the past.


David James Hartigan: I cannot let this opportunity pass without taking exception to the remarks of the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Young). He seems to be deeply concerned about the fact that subvention is paid for the benefit of our coal miners. You can call it a subvention or bonus or whatever you like, but if my hon. friend were to take the time to study the amount of bonuses and subventions that have been given to the wheat growers of Canada, he would find that the subvention on coal is very, very small in comparison. The eastern provinces, make no mistake, have paid their share, and paid through the nose for years, for the benefit of the farmers of the west. I do not like the

Supply-Mines and Resources
impression to go out through the country that we in the east are getting something that we do not deserve. The advantage which Canada derives from these subventions-and I say this fairly and honestly-cannot be gauged by the amount of the subvention paid, because it puts into the hands of the miners purchasing power which they otherwise would not have. Without the subvention we could not keep the markets we have. Competition has been so keen in the last number of years that our markets could not have been retained, let alone increased, without the subvention. I can speak for Nova Scotia, and for New Brunswick too, in this matter. They have furnished an excellent market for the wheat products of the western provinces and for their cattle in the shape of meats. There is no better market than our eastern provinces for the manufactured products of the central provinces, a statement which I am sure any manufacturer in Ontario or Quebec will corroborate. Our miners are doing arduous work, and they have to live on the very best food; their work demands it; otherwise they could not stand the strain of producing coal. When we take into consideration what our miners did in the war years, when their manpower was depleted, I think we should all resent a remark like that made by the hon. member for Saskatoon going on the Hansard of this dominion; and in saying that, I speak for the miners all over Canada.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: I would say to my hon. friend that he can never embarrass me by talking about bonuses paid on wheat. I am not in favour of bonuses, no matter where they are applied, and I would like that to be very well understood. There was a wheat bonus duiing past years when the wheat industry was in danger perhaps of almost being wiped out, and the country came to its rescue under those circumstances. I take it that there will be no division of opinion as to the necessity for aid when such are the circumstances.


David James Hartigan: We supplied a board to sell your wheat too, and we bought your wheat.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: Not very much. The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) takes this attitude. He is strong for protection on goods manufactured in Ontario, and he pleads the cause of the working man.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I always will.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: His desire to help the working man is no greater than that of any other hon. member. He wants to help the working man of Ontario. He also professes great concern about buying coal from Nova Scotia.
He is not suggesting that there be about $5 a ton duty against United States coal, and that the people of Ontario be made to pay whatever that protected cost of coal might be.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The duty is only 50 cents a ton.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: That would be a different proposition altogether. The rest of the country would then have to pay the subventions, and that is not charged up to my friend when he burns his coal in Ontario.
Let me say to the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Hartigan) that if he will take the trouble to study the production of real wealth in the western provinces during the last twenty-five years, he will be amazed to learn the amount of real wealth that has come out of those provinces. Further, he might study the question of how much these same provinces paid the dominion as a result of burdensome tariffs, our own province alone being charged up with a bill of about $28,000,000 a year.


An hon. MEMBER:: What about the rest of Canada?


Alexander MacGillivray Young: The hon. member will then begin to realize what this burden means to those of us who live in that part of the country. We are not opposed to Nova Scotia miners selling all the coal they can. We have no objection to Alberta miners selling all the coal they can. But we ask that these things be done on a basis which does not require the rest of Canada to pay for it all the time. In Saskatchewan, which is an extremely cold province during the winter months, the only satisfaction we have had was an increase some time ago from $2.20 per ton to $2.80 per ton in freight rates out of the Alberta field. But there is no subvention for us; we have to pay the bill. I have paid so many coal bills that I know something about the subject of prices and freight rates. All we are suggesting is this, that this whole matter should be given full consideration and that unfair burdens should be lifted from the backs of those in western Canada who have been bearing these burdens for a very long time. The hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) rises in his place in the house to ask for subventions, and makes a great plea for what I call protection.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Protection for the Canadian worker.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: The other day I read a speech in which the hon. member expressed himself as being very much in favour of the budget in that it represents a downward revision-not so much as some of us would like

Supply-Mines and Resources
but a revision in the right direction. Now, you cannot have it going and coming. There is a principle at stake here.


John Horne Blackmore: I am quite aware of that.


Alexander MacGillivray Young: You must apply the same principle no matter whether it be for you or against you, if it is sound. We in Saskatchewan have no more desire to be unfair to our Alberta and Nova Scotia friends than, I am sure, they have any desire to be unfair to us. Let me point out that it is because of the most burdensome protection which has been imposed in the interests of eastern industries that both ends of Canada have suffered as greatly as they have for a long time.


John Horne Blackmore: May I ask the minister how much money by way of subventions on coal was granted to Saskatchewan last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall have the information in a few moments.


Mr. TUCKER:: While the minister is getting the information, I should like to say that, like other western members who have spoken, I am in favour of as large a reduction as possible of a tariff which has worked in favour of the industrial part of central Canada. We in the west, like hon. members from the maritimes, have come to realize that we can go only a certain distance in the direction of free trade, that apparently we shall always have to submit to a certain measure of protection in this country. As I understand the matter, subventions on coal from Nova Scotia and Alberta are intended to make up in a small measure to those parts of Canada for what they are losing because of the tariff; in other words, it was recognized that those provinces gain practically nothing from the tariff, but lose a great deal, and these subventions are intended to provide some measure of compensation. My opinion is that so long as certain parts of Canada are to benefit at the expense of other parts through our fiscal tariff policy, until the benefits and injuries can be balanced to some extent by a substantial reduction, of the tariff, anything that helps those parts which are penalized should have my support. So far as Saskatchewan is concerned, may I say that we shall have to recognize the fact that other parts of Canada will demand and receive in the years to come a certain degree of protection.


John Ritchie MacNicol: On a point of order: We are not entitled to discuss the budget under this item. The tariff is not the subject before the committee at the moment; the subject is subventions on coal.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: Apparently the tariff is before the committee.


The CHAIRMAN:: I do not think the point of order of the hon. member for Davenport is well taken. Hon. members have been allowed a wide latitude.


Walter Adam Tucker: I am surprised that the
hon. member for Davenport rose to that point of order-he of all members-


Mr. BARRY:: Will the hon. member explain why every western member considers himself qualified to ask questions and express views as to the sentiments of members from the maritime provinces?


John Ritchie MacNicol: Only Saskatchewan members.


Walter Adam Tucker: I can answer that: because we suffer from the same fiscal policy that has almost ruined the west as well as the maritimes.


An hon. MEMBER:: Let us speak for ourselves.


Walter Adam Tucker: The only fiscal policy which will bring this country together is one that will deal fairly with all parts of the dominion. We have had a policy which has assisted the industrial part of central Canada at the expense of the maritimes and western Canada as well as at the expense of the agricultural part of central Canada; in other words, it has benefited only the industrial area of central Canada at the expense of other parts, and that to the tune of roughly $24,000.000 in one year, 1931, from the province of Saskatchewan alone. We are not here to indulge in quarrels between the different provinces. If some provinces are to receive substantial benefits from the fiscal policy of this country, benefits in equal measure should be conferred on other parts of the country. So far as I am concerned, I do not believe the maritimes and Alberta are getting through the fiscal policy of this dominion anything commensurate with what the central portion receives. What I rose to say was that, by means of the commission set up by this government, it is proposed I hope, so to speak, to equalize in various ways the benefits of the fiscal policy of Canada to its various provinces. We from Saskatchewan expect that our provincial government will present to that commission for consideration proposals calculated to give that province a greater measure of fairness of treatment somewhat similar to what has been granted here to the maritimes and Alberta in respect of coal. I hope that hon. members from other parts of Canada will

Supply-Lands, Parks and Forests
support us in, asking for a fair deal for Saskatchewan, since we are no less willing that Alberta and other parts of Canada shall also receive a square deal.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Oh, Saskatchewan!
Always Saskatchewan.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. member for Lethbridge asked a moment ago how much money had been spent in Saskatchewan by way of subventions on coal.


John Horne Blackmore: Just for last year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: For the calendar year 1936 the amount was slightly over $38,000. I suggest that as it is six o'clock we should let this item stand. I wish to get the information for which my right hon. friend has asked, and we can resume discussion of this item somewhat later.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In the meantime the minister will speak a kindly word to those who should be more amenable to discipline than they are.


John Gordon Ross: Will the minister get some information with regard to whether subventions clash?
Item stands.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
Lands, Parks and Forests Branch
Dominion lands, seed grain, mining lands, ordnance, admiralty and public lands, salaries and expenses, et cetera, $60,060.


Mr. MARSHALL:: What is the reason for such a large decrease in this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The fact that we are economizing, for one thing. In the second place, the amount of work is being steadily reduced year by year. That is the explanation given me; I asked the same question myself.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Would the minister explain what the present position is with respect to seed grain? I thought we were pretty well out of that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is quite a considerable amount in. outstanding accounts which are being collected.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The former government made provision for wiping off a lot of them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not these. These go back to 1908 and indeed further. They are old
balances of seed grain advances made by the dominion government in some instances over thirty-five years ago. These claims are being adjusted by commissions which have been set up in each of the provinces for that purpose. The federal government representatives come from the officers of the soldier settlement board. Alberta has one representative; so has Saskatchewan, and I think there is another from Manitoba. Slowly and steadily we are getting these adjustments made.
Then there is the handling of the ordnance lands. Practically all the lands owned by the federal government for federal government purposes, such as ordnance lands and lands used by other departments, revert to the Department of Mines and Resources, when not being used by the departments which originally secured them, and we administer these lands.


Mr. REID:: Can the minister tell the committee whether in British Columbia the department is cooperating with the provincial government, for example in conservation and the planting of trees? The provincial government has on foot, extensive schemes, such as reforestation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That comes under the next item. If my hon. friend will raise the question then, we shall deal with it.


Mr. SENN:: Is there any revenue derived from ordnance lands, situated along the great lakes or in other places?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, there is some. I recall one ease particularly, I believe in Halifax, where some ordnance lands were leased to people who wished to use them for summer resort purposes. The basis is 6 per cent of the value of the land.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And any taxes which may be paid.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, and in some cases the lands are sold, if they are no longer required, and the revenues of course revert to the crown.


James Alexander Marshall: How much of last year's vote was used?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot answer that question now. We have information covering only nine months of the fiscal year, which does not end until March 31. The expectation is that the vote will be practically exhausted.


James Alexander Marshall: Has the minister the
figures to the end of 1936?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, not here.


Mark Cecil Senn: The minister stated that some ordnance lands are sold if they are thought to be no longer needed by the department. Can he state what the general policy of the

Supply-Lands, Parks and Forests
department is in regard to the sale of ordnance lands? I know that in certain places along the great lakes considerable tracts of ordnance lands are held which, as far as my judgment goes, are of very little value from a military standpoint. Could the minister give a general statement as to the policy of the department in keeping or disposing of these lands?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The first thing the department has to be satisfied about is that the lands will not be required at any future date for military purposes. Once that is settled, I understand the practice is to get an appraisal of the lands, and if they are under lease the lessee is given the first opportunity to buy at the appraised price. If he does not want them, we try to sell or lease to whoever might be interested. Briefly, that is the policy.


Mark Cecil Senn: I know certain areas along
lake Erie. The shore of lake Erie is quite suitable for summer resort purposes. Along that shore there are considerable areas of land which from time to time would have been the subject of negotiation if the department had been ready to sell. I think a considerable revenue might have been derived from the sale of those lands but unfortunately, as far as I am aware, up to the present the department has not considered or approved such sales. I am not a military man and I do not know just what is necessary for defence, but these lands seem to be of very little value to the department. I would suggest to the minister that when reasonable offers are made in these cases, the department might very seriously consider selling some of this land.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The last six or seven
years have not been particularly auspicious ones for selling land or anything else. I think the practice of having a fair appraisal made of these lands and endeavouring to get that value out of the sale is sound. I do not want to put myself into such a position that my hon. friend, for instance, might come along another year and say I had squandered the public patrimony by selling these lands for less than their value.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I must differ with my
hon. friend; I think the minister should hesitate before selling these lands. My experience, in looking into these matters from time to time, was that frequently the crown required a piece of land for a particular purpose, only to find that the land was gone. Take quarantine stations, for instance; take lands that were set aside for one purpose

and used for another. To lease them is one thing; to part with them is another. My view was and is that it is highly desirable not to part with the title to lands which have been set aside for the crown, for one never knows when the crown may require a piece of vacant land. If the crown has the title to that land, with the power of resumption on due notice being given, it is able to utilize the public domain without any substantial expense. I have in mind a very definite case in which I saw the crown part with a piece of land; then, some ten or fifteen years later, another piece of land had to be acquired by expropriation. I have in mind a case in which one of our great corporations sold a three-quarter section of land at a fair price and ultimately had to buy it back at three or four times that price, because of changed conditions.
My observation, Mr. Chairman, as well as my experience, is that many of these lands set aside as ordnance lands have become particularly useful to the crown for purposes not at all connected with military operations or necessities. In these days when land is required so frequently for the purposes of the Department of Agriculture and various other departments, I suggest that it might be desirable to establish by regulation a policy that land should be leased and not sold so that the power of resumption on the giving of due notice would be always with the crown. I offer these suggestions to the minister and the committee only as a result of my observations with respect to these lands, and if that is the case during the span of one man's life how important will it become over a period of many years. The retention of land, with the title vested in the crown, in the future will be found a sound policy, and those who desire to lease the land for a period of years under conditions that will protect the interests of the crown may be permitted to do so.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I may say that I very largely agree with the observations made by my right hon. friend. As a matter of fact, I am advised that the sales are very few indeed; the practice is to lease the land, which I think is the sounder practice. If the lands can be made available in that way to those who may have some use for them for a period of years, whether for summer resort or other purposes, there is a continuing revenue to the crown.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Advancement of forest conservation; national inventory of forest resources; investigation of forest conditions and rates of growth, and
MARCH i, 1937	1369
Supply

R esources-Forests
development of scientific management methods; forest protection studies, technical and economic investigations of forest industries; the operation of forest experiment stations, demonstration forests, and forest products laboratories; cooperative undertakings in forestry and forest products, etc., $268,300.
Thomas Reid: I wonder whether the minister would have time to answer my question now. I asked if the dominion is doing anything in British Columbia by way of scientific methods of conservation, in conjunction with the provincial government which, as the minister knows, is very much interested in this question and which is doing a great piece of work.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The federal department maintains a forest products Laboratory in Vancouver, for the purpose of examining into the values and properties of the various types of timber, and their uses in a commercial way. I understand that my hon. friend inquired also if we were assisting in reforestation or afforestation in cooperation with the provincial government. That work is being left to the provincial government, and our activities in British Columbia are confined pretty much to the work done in the laboratory.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I desire to make a few observations, and I trust that the committee and the minister will pardon me for speaking so frequently, but I happen to be the only representative on my side of the house from the province of Alberta. Perhaps otherwise I would not speak about these matters.
During my absence I took occasion to look into the work of afforestation and reforestation in New Zealand and Australia. As to reforestation, I think this work may be fairly left to nature, for nature has been better at reforesting countries than man has been. For instance, in the areas which are contiguous to the Gatineau it has been found that over a period of half a century there has been a fair growth of spruce from natural causes, through the seedlings that have been distributed by the winds in the ordinary way. In other areas near these rivers spruce has come to a fair size in sixty and seventy years. Broadly speaking, it requires nearly a century to get the results that are aimed at. Practically every year we denude five million acres of pulpwood and ship the newsprint out of this country, and this is without taking into consideration what we utilize here. Five million acres constitute quite a large area. That is largely on the Atlantic side, though some of that work is done on the Pacific side as well. As I have said, this is a very substantial area, and probably it is increasing.
If we leave reforestation to nature, then the question of afforestation becomes more
important. In New Zealand there are private enterprises which have organized companies with large capital for the purpose of carrying on afforestation operations, and they have spent millions of pounds to that end. I passed one plantation in which there were some seven or eight or ten million trees. I went into the forest for the purpose of seeing how they were growing, and I talked to a gentleman who had been in charge of those operations for many years. I brought back with me a board made from a tree that had grown from a seedling in thirty-four years. That was in New Zealand, where growth is very rapid; of course we have no such rapidity of growth in this country. I realize that the distinct difference between reforestation and afforestation is something that we in Canada must keep in mind. There are in this country vast areas of land that might be usefully planted with seedlings, but the division of responsibility between the dominion and the provinces becomes very acute when one comes to consider the matter from any angle one pleases. We have no timber lands now belonging to the dominion, except in the Northwest Territories, and other territories under federal administration. The lands that are being denuded of trees for the export of newsprint are lands belonging to the provinces, and not to the dominion. The question of reforestation is a matter which one would think would engage the serious attention of provincial authorities.
With respect to afforestation, in western Canada we have carried on an educational campaign during at least the last half century. When I first went to western Canada, now nearly forty years ago, seedlings were being distributed every year from the farm at Indian Head, and elsewhere, and the many farms which we now see on the prairies with clumps of poplars about them, forming wind breaks and shelters, were thus protected by the seedlings distributed from the farm at Indian Head. In addition to that farm, there are others from which these seedlings have been distributed.
It seems to me, under present conditions, that is the only work the dominion can properly carry on, for we have no areas to set aside for afforestation. We have no areas over which we may have control, except the ordnance land about which we were speaking a few minutes ago, lands in the Northwest Territories, the lands which are vested in us as part of our experimental farms, and other areas which have fallen into our hands. I certainly believe we should cooperate with the provinces to the extent of our ability, but to suggest that we can undertake a policy
Supply-R esources-Forests

of afforestation in the various provinces of the dominion is to suggest that we could interfere with them in the administration of their property, and undertake to direct policies of which they are so jealous, and have been all through the years.
Therefore when we came to the question of afforestation indicated in the item, I was curious to have the minister indicate what he had in mind, and what the break-up of the item might be. If, as is the case in Australia, we had only one central government, the problem could easily be dealt with, but accepting the situation as it now stands it seems to me perfectly clear that all we can do is to give such assistance as is within our powers, by reason of our ownership and operation of experimental farms, and the operation of our laboratories. We have one in Vancouver and one in the east seeking to determine how best we may be able to secure the continuance of what is indeed one of our most wasting assets, namely our timber.
No thoughtful man who has read the history of the United States of America for the last hundred years can fail to be profoundly affected by the situation which has developed in Canada. It is all right to look at those magnificent trees in British Columbia, but when one realizes that some of them were a fairly good size before Columbus discovered America he begins to realize that a policy of afforestation or reforestation will bring no results during lifetimes of many, many generations, so far as Douglas fir is concerned. With, regard to spruce, the condition is somewhat different, and with regard to hardwood it is still more different. I suggest that the problem confronting the Canadian people in connection with their timber assets is one of profound importance. The wasting of this great asset, which cannot readily be made available again, is something which should engage the attention of those who reap revenue from it, namely the provincial authorities. We cannot impose our will upon them; much less should we endeavour to do so, but to the extent of our ability I think we should indicate to them, as has been done in the past, through the department which has knowledge of the experiments and knowledge which has come from information gained by representatives at various conventions throughout the world, how we can within a reasonable time secure a regrowth of timber which would be available for use. That has been done in Sweden and in other countries.
For instance, a certain type of poplar may be used for matches. With veneer knives they

take many, many thousands of match ends off one particular tree. In Sweden they have done a great deal of work in connection with the reforestation of that particular type of tree, and in this country it seems to me we could do a great deal in the valley of the Ottawa, for instance, where that particular type of tree grows well. But just how one can adjust the federal government into the picture, so as to ensure something like a reasonable return for the effort, is a matter of great difficulty. Certainly I have seen but little evidence on the part of any of the provinces of a desire for the dominion even to suggest to them what they might do. That is the reason I should like the minister to indicate what he means by the item.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As my right hon. friend has said, it is quite true that the control of the forest areas is now within the provinces. I believe at the present time there is a growing appreciation of the importance of sound methods of conservation and harvesting. The work the federal government carries on under the vote is confined largely to the stations it has established!. Perhaps the committee would be interested to know where they are located. There is one in New Brunswick, known as the Acadian forest experimental area, covering an area of thirty-eight square miles. Then at Valcartier in Quebec there is a small one of seven and a half square miles. In the Peta-wawa area of northern Ontario there is an area of one hundred square miles; in Manitoba there is the Duck mountain forest experimental station with an area of approximately thirty-six square miles, and in Alberta, west of Calgary, there is the Kananaskis station with an area of sixty-three square miles. As I said a few moments ago, experimental work is done at these stations. For instance, study is carried on as to how best the growth of trees may be promoted. Early last summer I had an opportunity of visiting the Petawawa station and observing the work done there. It is carried out along definite scientific lines. In fact, the work carried on by the various experimental stations is of the same kind as that done by the experimental farms of the various provinces.
The data gathered from the experimental work is made available to the provinces and to private owners of timber who are operating pulp-mills, sawmills or other timber processing plants. I agree with the right hon. gentleman that there is a need of impressing upon the people generally the wisdom of sound conservation policies with respect to our forest wealth. It is only within very recent years

Supply-Resources-Forests
that the importance of this asset has been realized. Several weeks ago I had an opportunity of attending the annual meeting of the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association, and in my discussions with the managers of companies connected with the operations I found them very much alive to the need of sound methods not only of harvesting the crop but of maintaining the supply.
What Sweden has done is, as was indicated by the right hon. gentleman, an illustration of what can be achieved by sound methods. Undoubtedly we have been slow in realizing the importance of our forests, but I do believe that in an increasing measure it is being realized to-day. I attribute much of the increased interest in sound conservation policies to the work being done by the dominion in the areas to which I referred.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And by the Canadian
Forestry Association.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And by the Canadian
Forestry Association. The work done by the Indian Head experimental farm in western Canada has been most valuable; it has been mostly along the lines of providing shelter belts and sheltered areas for homesteaders and farmers on what are sometimes described as the baldheaded prairies. This is very important work. Were the country in a more favourable position, I should like to see more money provided for this work. I should like to mention one interesting experiment which I saw being carried on in the laboratory at Montreal.
Mr. MacNICOiL: Where is that laboratory?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In the university grounds
at Montreal. I may say that this building was erected by the pulp and paper people. Experimental work is carried on in the grinding of woods and the various processes in the manufacturing of paper.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is that not under the
direction of McGill University?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Partly. The experiment in which I was so much interested had to do with the production of a beautiful grade of paper from a mixture of hardwood pulp and softwood pulp. I think such experiments are very valuable. In a general way, that is the work being carried on under this vote, and I have no hesitation whatever in saying that this is one of the most important phases of the work carried on by this branch of the department.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Mr. Chairman, the minister has partly answered a question I intended to ask in connection with the laboratory, that is where it is located and what work it is doing. I am glad to hear that there is such an institution although I had not known there was. I made a special trip to Madison, Wisconsin, where perhaps the largest forest products laboratory in the world is located. This is a magnificent glass and concrete building costing in the neighbourhood of $14,000,000. The building was erected by the United States government for carrying on general forestry work. Everyone realizes that the manufacture of forest products creates employment for thousands of men, and I endorse whatever the minister has in mind with reference to the preservation of forests, laboratory work and other matters of that kind.
I noticed that at Madison they had seven different departments. The first department has to do with finding additional uses for wood and the elimination of waste in connection with the manufacture of wood products. As someone said a moment ago, there is an enormous waste in this dominion. It would seem as though our supplies of wood were thought to be inexhaustible, but they certainly are not, as one can see when he goes around the country. The second department deals with the strength of woods and the study of what wood could be best suited for particular purposes. I found this work very interesting. For instance, they studied the different types of wood to be used in the making of crates. In many instances a heavy wood is used where a lighter wood would provide better service. Reports are sent out all over the country to manufacturers and the results have been tremendous. I was told that they save the manufacturing industry in the United States an average of $4,000,000 per year.
The third department has to do with the processing of woods, a matter of great interest to the furniture manufacturers. Many improvements have been suggested to these people in regard to the type of dry kiln to use, and they claim a saving of about $10,000,000 per year. A study of construction problems is being made. To my mind this is very important. As anyone connected with the industry knows, steel is making rapid inroads into the realm of lumber. By increasing the use of wood they hope to provide more employment in Sawmills and planing mills throughout the country. Another department has to do with the best methods of treating woods to make them more fire resisting. Another department has to do with the ingredients to be used in paints to increase the life of wood.
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Does this laboratory in Montreal carry on similar investigations to the best of its ability? I realize that it could not compete with a $14,000,000 plant, but if it is doing any work along this line, it deserves the serious support of this committee.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think most of the experiments referred to by my hon. friend are carried on at the Ottawa and Vancouver laboratories. The problems considered in Montreal are those more closely associated with the pulp and paper industry. They make analyses of pulps and consider the absorption of alcohol on pulps. They classify all pulps by selective screening and they conduct studies as to the best methods of grinding woods. They consider all things which enter into and vitally touch the pulp and paper industry. I am informed that, as a result of the work carried on in this laboratory, suggestions have been made which have materially reduced the cost of producing paper. This is a very important matter at the present time. As hon. members are aware, our large market for pulp and paper is in the United States, which coun*-try has vast areas of southern pine. We know that experimental work is being carried on in that country with the object of converting those pine woods into pulp and paper. It is, I think, vastly important that we in Canada should keep ourselves up to date in all the information which touches upon this subject; at the same time we should carry on our own experimental work for the benefit of our pulp and paper manufacturers, and that is the work which has been carried on mainly in the laboratory in Montreal.


Charles Avery Dunning: Mr. Chairman, just a word on the point mentioned by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) and also by the minister (Mr. Crerar). I think this discussion is of vital importance to any man who loves a tree and who appreciates the relationship between tree life and human life. Although in this chamber we have not control over the forest resources of Canada except to the limited degree indicated by the leader of the opposition and the minister, we do represent the people of Canada; and if the history of the world teaches us anything it teaches us this, that if tree life goes, human life cannot long be sustained in the area thus denuded. That is borne out on the pages of history. While we cannot control these matters, we can by the words uttered here stimulate in the minds of Canadians a greater regard for the renewing of these resources which are being destroyed year by year and destroyed more, I believe, by fire and insect pests than by the extent to which we are using 
them commercially. To a very great degree I believe that is true. Nature will do a lot herself if she is given a chance.
I remember during my early life in the west that the tree line was a great deal further north than it is now, particularly in eastern Saskatchewan. The leader of the opposition I am sure will remember that the Canadian Pacific railway main line passing through by Broadview traversed practically bare country thirty years ago, but the trees have gradually crept southward. Why? Because the prairie fires which destroyed them formerly have been stopped by the cultivation of farms. Let us do all we can to stimulate in the minds of our people the need to cooperate with nature in replenishing these great stores which mean so much, not merely in the way of an asset in manufacturing something, but also in relation to the preservation of the means whereby human beings can live in this country. The great problems of erosion referred to by the leader of the opposition, which are so apparent in the United States but are not, as yet, so apparent here, are apparent, nevertheless, in some parts and will become increasingly so if forest growth disappears, and to the extent that we can stimulate public opinion to appreciate the importance of the problem-and it is very largely a matter of individual trees-to that extent we are doing a useful work for our country. I have no doubt that the expression of opinions given here to-night will find an echo across the dominion, and once public opinion is aroused then proper measures must be taken by the proper authorities to deal with the matter.
From	the	standpoint	of	this governmentand	of	this	parliament	we	can continue to
carry on the nursery work, the work in the parks, and the laboratory work to which the minister has referred, but so far as control is concerned that very definitely is in the hands of the provincial authorities, except in areas which are definitely owned outright by the dominion.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Mr. Chairman, I should like	to	add	my voice	to	what has beensaid	by	the	leader of	the	opposition (Mr. Bennett), the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning). I think this is one of the most important items in the estimates to come before the house this session. In the past we have not paid as much attention to protecting our forests as we ought to have done. The province of British Columbia had at one time the finest forest, I suppose, to be found anywhere in the world. We thought we had a forest which was inexhaustible, and we thought
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that only a very few years ago. But from studies and investigations made within the last few years it is estimated, by what is considered to be competent authority, that within twenty-five years the accessible commercial forest in British Columbia will have disappeared. Not only will its commercial value have disappeared, but many evils will have taken the place of the asset we now have. It is largely a matter of protection. I have watched forests grow, and all they want is a chance to grow. I was greatly surprised a few years ago, when I went back to that part of the maritihie provinces where I was brought up, to find that what was in those early days cultivated fields is now a forest of trees with some twenty-five to thirty feet of growth.
The leader of the opposition has referred to Sweden. I had an opportunity to visit Sweden and Norway this summer, and one of the things that surprised me, after seeing the desolation caused by forest fires in British Columbia, was to find no such areas at all in Sweden or Norway. If they have any such areas, I did not see them. I was told by people there that despite the extensive use they have made of their forests, cutting the timber for use at home and for export for over a hundred years, the forests of Sweden are greater to-day than they were a hundred years ago. To my mind that should be a lesson to us. Some way will have to be found for cooperation between the federal and provincial governments to preserve what forests we have and to give nature a chance to reproduce so that we may continue to have forests in the future.
I notice that the minister has begun to inform public opinion by radio addresses, and I hope these will continue. Let me repeat, some way will have to be found to get cooperation between the dominion and the provinces in this most essential work that is facing the people of Canada to-day.


Mr. McCANN:: May I ask the minister what part of this appropriation is for Peta-wawa park, and what is the number of employees there? Does the reservation extend across the Ottawa river into the province of Quebec? Is fire prevention a part of the work of the employees?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The reservation does not extend into the province of Quebec. Fire prevention is one of the subjects under constant study in the forest reserve at Petawawa. It was interesting to me on the first visit I made to one of these stations last summer to observe the methods that are followed in determining the fire hazard; for. example,
the amount of moisture in the ground under the trees is measured, and as the amount of moisture decreases the fire hazard increases. There are five permanent employees in that station. I believe that during the summer months there is additional temporary help.


Malcolm McLean: How much is
the appropriation?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know that I can give precisely the amount which we have appropriated. A little over $21,000 is down for Petawawa this year.


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. member for
Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis) has said that it is for the most part a matter of protection of forests. I agree with him to a large extent, but on the other hand it must be also a matter of education. For instance, in the province of Quebec we have very rich forest reserves, and the government had for a time the idea of establishing settlers on lots which previously were very rich in trees, but the lumbermen used to cut all the wood before the settlers could reach those lots, and there was no proper division between farm lands and forest reserves. It was a great mistake, the result being that very often settlers were established on lots on which there was no timber; they could not find enough wood on their own lots to build their houses and do a little profitable trade in the wintertime. The most essential thing for sound settlement on new lots is that they should be covered with timber; then the timber can be cut by the settler and provide him with some income during the winter. At present the wood is cut mostly by lumber companies; nothing is left for the settlers and they have to rely upon direct relief for what is, at times, a very poor living. If there could be an arrangement of some kind between the dominion government and the provinces by virtue of which the settlers would be established on well-timbered lots, neither the federal government nor the provincial governments would have to pay anything for relief of settlers. At the present time the condition of the settlers is awful; most of them have been taken from the cities and placed on rocky soil in the forests, far away from civilization, and as a consequence both governments have to provide direct relief. It is an absurd situation, and I hope that some of the money included in this item will be applied to education, including education of the provincial governments, so that they may realize the value of the timber to settlers, and that our forest reserves shall not be destroyed by eager lumber merchants.
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Harry James Barber: I think it is recognized
that fire is one of the most destructive elements in our forests, particularly in British Columbia. Will the minister inform us whether his department cooperates in any way with the provincial governments in fire protection? Does it make a grant or use any of this money for protective purposes? I suppose that when the lands were handed over to the provinces, the care of the timber became their sole obligation, but I should like to know whether there remains anything in the way of cooperation with the provinces for the prevention of fires.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. Fire protection in
British Columbia and other provinces is a matter for the provinces themselves. We place at their disposal all such data and information as we gather, for instance, in our forest experimental work at the stations to which I referred a few minutes ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And we make a small grant to the forestry association.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As the leader of the opposition has stated, we make a grant to the forestry association,. The federal responsibility as discharged under this vote is confined to experimental work in these stations and in the laboratories and to the dissemination of information to the public in every reasonable way that we can reach them, concerning the importance of conservation, the need of guarding against fire, and similar matters. It is now fairly well ascertained that a great many forest fires originate through carelessness. Excepting those which are started, by lightning, all other causes of fire cam be prevented. It may mean a long journey to accomplish this, but we have steadily to work on public opinion to give our people a realization of the importance of exercising ordinary care to guard against fires in our forests.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is the department carrying on any experimental work in connection with selective logging? I understand that selective logging is the system followed in, Europe, and that thereby they have succeeded to a very large extent in preserving their, forests. I do not know of any such work being carried on in British Columbia. In Oregon, in the county of Malheur, east of the coast range, they are carrying on selective logging on very considerable tracts of land and handling the work successfully. By that system they take out what is ripe and ready to cut and preserve sufficient young trees to grow a new crop in a short time. With the high lead system of logging practised in the large
[M:\ Pouliot.]
timber areas of British Columbia, they break down the trees that are of no use to them, with the result that under the present system very few trees escape. Selective logging consists in taking trees that are old enough and fit to cut, and leaving the others in the forest to grow. Are any experiments along that line being carried out?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am advised that the department is carrying on, certain investigational work in connection with the matter raised by the hon. member for Victoria, B.C. (Mr. Tolmie). The information, which by practical illustration indicates the importance of such methods, is made available in as widespread a fashion as possible. I am certain that among many of the large companies operating in eastern Canada there is a fairly clear realization of the importance of the very point raised by the hon. member. After all, it is simply a sensible way of harvesting a crop so as not to destroy what will be the crop of the future. I can only reiterate that, after all, it is through the impact made on public opinion by the dissemination of knowledge and the application of that knowledge in a practical way on the widest possible scale, as is now being done, that the desired results will be produced.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Does the minister not think the time is fast approaching when we should take up this matter in, a large way and carry on a campaign of instruction in the areas where forests still remain, with a view of conserving our timber much better than it is being conserved at the present time?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The suggestion of my hon. friend is probably a very good one, but when I come to ask for an increased vote to spread this work even, further we have to take into account various factors. There are many demands on the public treasury. All I can say is that I think we are getting very good value for the money expended under this vote. Personally I should like to see it larger, I hope that in a few years we may be in a position to increase it, and extend the useful work which can be done in that way. Meantime we shall do the best we can with the money at our disposal.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: I want to add my voice to those of others who have urged the minister to do all he possibly can to encourage people to respect their forests, and if he can shout loud enough to be heard in British Columbia it will do a great deal of good to Canada. People say that public opinion will preserve our forests. I am afraid that when the lumberman comes to a tree one thousand years old, he thinks very little

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about public opinion and a lot about his personal profit. They cut down these trees with high rigging and destroy whole forests as they move along, and nothing but a determined effort on the part of the dominion and the province together will set matters right in British Columbia, for that province is fast being denuded of its forests. Students of tree life tell us that the famous fir trees one thousand and more years old will not grow again in British Columbia. The abies amabilis nobilis, as I think it is called, is a tree that belongs to the past, and once cut down has no life to carry on. It is replaced by other and lighter growths, so that if we are to have some of these fine old trees preserved for those who come after us, we must educate now and educate definitely to protect our forest life. I sincerely hope the minister will do all he possibly can to see that British Columbia, of all provinces, knows more about this work.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wish to say just a few words more, without intruding my views too much on the attention of the committee. I visited the forest of western Australia because I had heard that they were taking extreme care of that great and valuable resource. I found that foresters selected with great care the trees to be cut down and marked them, and then provision was made for planting new trees. That is the jarrah tree and the karri tree. It is true that the governments own the forests, and carry on the operation of or own the mills. In Queensland they own their forests as well, and instead of permitting them to be leased for long terms they provide that a sawmill is licensed to cut so many feet per annum, and that a competing sawmill is not placed there because no more may be cut than the quantity which they allot for that particular place. I suspect that it would be very difficult to get provincial administration in this country to look at matters in that way. One of the difficulties Canada suffers from to-day is that we have built too many pulp-mills for the purpose of meeting the market requirements of the great republic to the south; the result is that the governments of Ontario and Quebec have competed with one another in requiring the construction of pulp and paper mills as a condition attached to the leases of land, and the competition has become so fierce because of overproduction, owing to the number of mills and the limited consumption, that Canadians have been exchanging an old dollar for a new one without any corresponding return for the tremendous losses sustained by the denuding of the forest lands. I said a moment ago that five million acres of land were denuded of
trees to provide for the export of newsprint from this country last year.
I think the minister has perhaps gone a little too far in connection with the laboratory. The laboratory at Montreal is operated in a building which was constructed by the pulp and paper association on the university lands, and the late Mrs. Eddy left $200,000 for the establishment of the E. B. Eddy chair in connection with that organization. Professor Hibbert, who came from Yale and organized that staff, is responsible for the experiments carried on. There is no difficulty about the utilization of our wood; that difficulty, I think, we have mastered; our trouble is the preservation of our wood. It is true we are able to improve the quality of our pulp and the production of our papers, but is it not an odd commentary-to anticipate something which may be discussed later- that we are actually paying a drawback on paper imported-


Mr. KINLEY:: Of the duty.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Just so-on paper imported here for the purpose of printing Canadian magazines? The budget provides for a 75 per cent drawback of the duty to be paid on paper, probably made from Canadian products, imported from the United States for the publishing of papers in Canada. That is an illustration, the most outstanding evidence of our failure to measure up to the necessities of the situation as our competing friends to the south have done. I confess I have never been quite able to understand this.
That laboratory deals with utilization, not preservation. Conservation is admirable, but let me go a step further. At Canberra one of the first things they did when they established their capital was to set up a school of forestry. With Mr. Lane Poole I spent as interesting an hour as any I spent while away, looking over an exhibit of the woods of the world, and I found there as fine an exhibit of Canadian woods as could be found anywhere in Canada. But what struck me is the point referred to a moment ago by one hon. member, namely the question of destruction of wood by insects. I was amazed to find the extent to which that problem is being dealt with; the illustrations of it from every part of the world were striking. For instance, in one part of Australia wooden sleepers or railroad ties are impossible because they would be eaten at once by the white ants. In northern Rhodesia they use teak. As soon as the tie is cut is it immersed in a strong bath of insecticide; after it has been boiled in this arsenic solution it is put



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into boiling tar, and in this way it is made impervious to either the action of the weather or insects. In other places they use steel ties entirely. But when one thinks of that magnificent teakiwood being used for that purpose, one has some difficulty in believing that conservation is being carried to the extent it might be.
As to fire, I was astonished at the amount spent in protecting forests from being burnt, and the extent of the precautions taken. They have forest rangers everywhere, telephone communication linking them together; many of our people in Canada are doing much the same sort of work. The minister referred to fires started by lightning, but I am told that, taking the world over, the fires that owe their origin to lightning are probably very few.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not very many, but some.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Careless men, and somestart fires. Measures are certainly taken to guard against sparks from railway engines and guard against sparks from railway engines and that sort of thing. Now could we not do something to take a more advanced position with respect to conservation as distinguished from utilization? -In connection with insects and parasites and matters of that sort I think we could give assistance under the constitution, under our broad and general powers in connection with agriculture. But marking trees and carrying on propaganda in that regard would be extremely difficult to accomplish in this country, having regard to the fact, as mentioned by the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Taylor), that unfortunately people having leases of our forest areas in British Columbia do not in many instances reside in this country; they are absentee lessees, who are now operating leased lands in Canada and shipping the resultant lumber not only to the United States but to various parts of the world. That is a factor which it is beyond our power to consider, except perhaps through an export duty, which we still would have power to impose if we so desired. I remember one gentleman who urged upon me at one time the desirability of considering whether or not the time had come for the regulation of exports from British Columbia in such a way as would prevent the exhaustion of those resources, which exhaustion he believed would . occur within the lifetime of his grandchild. That may be an exaggerated view with respect to the matter.
That being so, Mr. Chairman, I agree with the minister that our only hope of accomplishing anything as a dominion must be through the creation of a sound public opinion. If a campaign such as was suggested by the hon.

member for Victoria, B.C., were to be carried on, we would have to be sure beforehand that it would not be met with that negative attitude on the part of the province concerned which would make it absolutely useless to make the attempt. That is our real difficulty. For instance, there is the question of the cutting and exporting of pulpwood. Most of our crown leases in the provinces contain a provision that pulpwood cannot be exported, but one has only to read the newspapers to see that in some instances that provision has been relaxed, for many reasons. We had an inquiry into the matter, as I dare say the minister will remember; I have no doubt he was in the house at the time that commission reported. While there is a statute that permits a prohibition to be enforced by order in council, no action has ever been taken to prevent the export of pulpwood, because in practice this has been found to constitute a very desirable market for those who, if it were not for that power of export, would be paid less money than they think they should receive.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Somewhat less, at any rate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The report of the commission was along that line, and the old government-I am not sure whether or not it was in the days of the union government- took power to pass an order in council prohibiting that export. Then there is, for instance, the movement of logs out of this country. I think it will be remembered that during the days of Sir Oliver Mowat certain action was taken in the province of Ontario to lessen that evil as they saw it. I believe some action was taken that lessened the possibility of the movement of these magnificent logs across the sound from British Columbia to the United States and to some, though not to a very great extent, we have endeavoured to limit the movement of logs not only to Japan but also to Australia, in order that in our own country we might have the work of producing the lumber from these logs.
All these are problems that indicate how we might cooperate, the dominion with the provinces, to bring about a result that I think is of the utmost importance. A moment ago the Minister of Finance had something to say about the tree, and I am sure hon. members of this committee have read a great deal about it. Mr. Barker-I think that is the name; it is either Barker or Baker-has written so beautifully about the tree man and the trees of Great Britain as almost to make one feel that they are living things. I know when I see a great tree fall to the ground

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it always gives me a pang. A tree always seems to be something for which one has a sort of human feeling. Some of the old trees, such as those in the parks around Windsor and the tree beneath which old Lobengula used to sit when he administered justice, recall times so long past and events so important that one almost looks upon them as living things which have taken a vital part in the history of the country itself. Trees have played such a vital part that perhaps as a committee we can do nothing better by this brief discussion than help men and women in all parts of Canada to realize the debt we owe to nature and nature's God for giving us this rich heritage of trees as a trust, not to exhaust within our lifetime but so to utilize that the generations which come after us may have reason to look back with pride upon the fact that we had some sense of obligation and preserved something to them even as the past handed it to us.


John Horne Blackmore: If next year the minister will ask for a greater allotment of money for this purpose I shall gladly support him, because I feel keenly the need for conserving our forest growth. I know in my own province there are areas that once were covered with trees that are now completely denuded, and frequently those hills are of no value at all at the present time. It seems to me that in many cases we might, in some way or another, gain control of these hilly areas and have them replanted. If we did that, we would be better off both as a dominion and as a province.
There are several matters that have occurred to my mind, which perhaps it would be as well for me to tell the minister about now. because otherwise I might forget. Probably he has thought of all these matters also, but in travelling around the country this summer there were a few things that struck me forcibly. In the first place, in Alberta we suffered great loss because of forest fires which resulted from the extremely dry season. That came to my mind particularly when I saw beautiful areas around the Waterton lakes park and in other districts completely spoiled by fire. Those areas will not be the same again for perhaps one hundred and fifty years. It occurred to me that it might be wise in future for the dominion to take on what I might call an emergency force of wardens who could be transferred from one part of the country to another, so that they might be stationed in that part of the country where there happened to be a drought. I know in Alberta we could have saved great wooded areas of untold value if the fire fighting forces had been 31111-87A
perhaps quadrupled just during the two or three weeks or so of extreme dryness. I noticed also, when I went across the line by way of Logan pass, that on the other side of the line they lost very heavily also, so evidently there was no comparative lack of care on our part. It was most pathetic to see these areas; it gave me a pang, as the right hon. leader of the opposition said, to see what had happened to those areas which had been so beautiful just the year before.
Then another matter came to my attention. I heard from one who was intimately connected with the logging business in British Columbia that there are logging concerns which are very destructive in the way they take out trees. One man to whom I was speaking on the subject was a student of forestry at one of the institutions in British Columbia. He told me of one concern that he saw which was destroying six trees for every tree it took out, and this was going on just as quickly as high-powered machinery and organized crews could go through the forest. This gentleman told me that the trees thus destroyed were really more of a loss than the trees cut down, because new trees would grow in place of those cut down but those that were destroyed would stand for many years, unsightly, in the way, simply wasted. I thought notice should be taken of this destruction; it seemed to me that stern measures should be applied, by strategy if need be, to put a stop to that sort of thing, and the words of the hon. member for Nanaimo brought the matter to my mind with even greater force. Something should be done now, before parliament meets again.
I believe the suggestion advanced by the right hon. leader of the opposition would be a good thing. If necessary we might adopt measures that will stop the export of these trees. If we cannot redeem the leases or force these men to sell them back to us in order to preserve these priceless treasures that have been left to us as a heritage which I think we should pass on, we might very well consider taking that step. When I was a university student in Edmonton there were many wooded areas close to that city. I had come from the plains, and I used to tell the farmers there that they would regret some day the wasteful cutting down of trees. I urged that at least they leave a belt eight feet wide along the fence lines, so that they would have wind breaks in time of need. They paid no attention in 1909 or 1910, but surely to-day those farmers are suffering from the very condition I told them about. They denuded the country. During the four years I attended the university there was only one

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wind high enough to blow off a person's hat, but to-day if one goes to Edmonton he will find drifting snow and soil blown about almost as would happen in the south. They were unwise to cut down so many of the trees.
It used to occur to me that the government would have been well advised in those days to have preserved one-quarter out of every section, and to have refrained from throwing it open for settlement. That ground could have been kept as a kind of permanent reserve, would have served as a home for birds, helped to conserve the soil and to conserve animal life, and would have prevented the denudation of the country to a point where high winds are possible. If the minister has not already taken such precaution, I would suggest it would be well to cooperate with the other departments and see whether or not something like that could be done, so that the great areas which are being opened in some sections may have that protection.
Another point which has occurred to me is this: Areas which once were park lands are being returned to the government because, as we say, the people cannot make good. Perhaps frost or some other factor is prevents ing them. As the land goes back to the government for taxes, it seems to me that a sort of planned economy would lead the federal government in conjunction with the provincial governments to take steps to take over a quarter of every section, have it replanted and held for the future. Even where the land is not coming back to the government, it might be wise to buy a quarter. There are quarters which are not much good for farming. North of Edmonton I found areas where trees had been cut down, which areas have been shown to be entirely worthless for farming purposes. After cutting the trees down they found there was sand, much the same as is found in some parts of Quebec, with a thin layer of good soil over the top of it. The good soil was quickly exhausted, and all that remains is worthless. The lands could have been redeemed or reconditioned by the provincial or federal governments.
Last year I was invited to go to Shawinigan Falls, where I saw something which greatly impressed me. I am told that the Shawinigan power people are presenting the town each year with a piece of land which has been denuded of trees, but which has been replanted with young trees. It was one of the most pleasant sights I had ever seen to drive out from Shawinigan Falls to see slopes, which had been denuded and would have been unsightly, beautifully planted with trees growing for the delight and profit of the future. Probably we could encourage other companies to do likewise.

One further point I believe has not been mentioned to the minister. I am wondering whether it would be a good thing for him to go into Banff national park and examine closely the situation with respect to beavers. I believe it is known to hon. members that in some parts of the west beavers have increased to such an extent that they are attacking fine trees and destroying them. We value the beaver, but I fancy a good colony of beaver would be worth less than the plot of trees they would destroy. The matter was brought to my attention quite forcibly by men whose names I should not mention. I thought it would be well to draw the situation to the attention of the minister.
Once again may I express my great satisfaction that the minister is making an effort to conserve our forests. May I state that I am in agreement with hon. members who have expressed enthusiasm for the conservation of our forests, and I would urge that the movement be pressed forward with the greatest of energy so that in future we may preserve and possibly increase our forest wealth.


Malcolm McLean: Mr. Chairman, for the last half hour the discussion this evening has been interesting, but I should like to advise the minister not to take too seriously much of what has been said. After all, trees are like any other crop. If they are not harvested when they are mature they go to waste, as will any other growth. Not only do they go to waste themselves, but after becoming rotten at the core some of them are blown down by the winds and, in falling, they take other trees with them. The result is that often fire may break out and destroy a whole forest. If trees are not used, except for scenic and beauty purposes, not only will they deteriorate but they will clutter up the land and prevent other trees from growing.
I believe we should encourage the growth of further supplies of trees when those which are now mature are harvested but there is a good deal of sentimentality when we talk about trees, and sometimes the question is not thoroughly understood. A little while ago an hon. member complained that pulpwood had been shipped out of the country. When pulpwood was being shipped out of Canada the men handling it were making a comfortable living. During the past five or six years, when there was no pulpwood going out of Canada and no sale for it, the men who were formerly handling it were taking out firewood and in some cases selling it as low as eighty cents a cord, in order to make a bare living. They were selling firewood at that price where formerly they had been able to get $5 or $8

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a cord for pulpwood, depending upon where it was shipped. A Canadian mill would pay $5, whereas an American mill buying pulpwood from patented lands would pay $8 for the same quality.
I do not think this country has any moral right, as indeed it has no legal right, to the ownership of pulpwood. I suppose it has the legal right to restrict export, but I think it has no more moral right to restrict the export of pulpwood by those who own it than to prohibit the export of cattle or hogs or grain or any manufactured goods produced in Canada.
There is something which can be done under the vote, and I am satisfied the minister and his department are doing good work along this line. I believe it was the leader of the opposition who spoke about the laboratory at Montreal, and what it has done. But it seemed to me he appeared to be of opinion that the laboratory had pretty well served its purpose, and that we knew pretty well now how to utilize our forest wealth. There is one part of our forest wealth we do not understand adequately, and that is the question of jack pine in pulpwood, to be mixed with spruce. I know there is a constantly increasing percentage of jack pine, and I would not go so far as to say there are not other woods being added to spruce. If we can devise a formula, or if a scientist at the laboratory in Montreal or elsewhere can devise one whereby a constantly increasing percentage of jack pine, poplar and other woods could be used with spruce, it would be worth all the laboratory costs for maintenance. I appreciate the fact that the department and the minister are interested in this particular matter.
After all that has been said about the , exhaustion of the spruce tree, we are finding that it is not correot. Ten years ago there was quite a campaign to secure the prohibition of export of pulpwood from Canada. We have more spruce to-day suitable for pulp-making than we had a't that time, because we have not been using spruce much for a number of years. We are oversupplied. At the present time our exports of forest products have greatly increased and, if my memory serves me correctly, are above the previous high record. It is true prices are not as high as we would like to have them; nevertheless the forest is providing a living for a great many workers, and it is helping as much as any other branch of industry to bring Canada back to prosperity. Another reason why there is more spruce or pulpwood is that it has been growing very fast.
An hon. member on this side of the chamber said a little while ago that he did not like to listen to western members talking on behalf of the maritime provinces. I do not want to do that, but I think it is within the memory of many of us here that a noted timber conservationist from the maritime provinces was in the habit of advertising the fact that down there a spruce tree would grow about an inch or an inch and a half in width per year provided conditions were favourable. I know that trees do grow extremely fast down there, but it must not be forgotten that even in the interior, where the winters are longer and the summers shorter and rainfall less-these are the factors that govern the growth of trees-the growth is quite rapid provided fire is kept out of the forests. If we can do that, they will grow fast enough.
I think it was the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) who advocated the reforestation of lands which had come back into public ownership. That would be fine provided these lands had been covered with timber at one time, but if an attempt is made at the reforestation of prairie lands which were never meant to support timber, then the effort will be only a waste of time and money. An hon. member stated a little while ago that he was amazed at the destruction of trees in the district around Edmonton and he wondered why the farmers could not have left a strip of trees around their land. Apparently he was under a misapprehension or was not thoroughly familiar with the situation. These trees were probably matured and if they were not cut down or utilized in some other way, they would only blow down. Just as soon as you start in clearing the land, that is what is going to happen. Trees that grow in the middle of a forest have not the long tap roots to anchor them as have trees growing more thinly, and unless they are cut down, and marketed if a market is available, they are simply wasted.
There is another phase to this question. There are dirt highways in the rural parts of western Canada, and even in eastern Canada, alongside of which are many trees. These trees prevent the roads from drying up after a rain and in many cases automobiles and other vehicles are stuck in the mud. These trees serve no useful purpose. Someone else advocated a system of marking trees. I have never been a lumberman, but from my many years of observation I am sure that you will get nothing but grief if you suggest to the lumbermen that a young fellow just out of school should go in and mark the trees

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*which they should cut. He is going to tell such a man to learn his business. It is true that we must have regulations, and we must *enforce them, but that is not the way to do it. The question of inseot pests is very important. I hope the minister will be able to secure sufficient parasites to combat this menace which is endangering the spruce and other trees of this country.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Mr. Chairman, I was very much interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. McLean) and his statement that trees should be considered as a crop. My experience in New Brunswick has been that three or four crops will be harvested in a year if the lumbermen are not watched. I think the efforts made by this government and the provincial government to preserve our forests have been fairly successful. Our history in New Brunswick shows that at one time our great forests were completely depleted. If it were not for the efforts of the governments of the last few years, we would not have the great source of revenue we now have in our forests. It is not my intention to make a speech on forest conservation, but I should like to ask the minister how much of this vote is being set aside for the development of the area of twenty-eight square miles in New Brunswick to which he referred? I know this area was being developed a few years ago as a relief project but it was stopped last year. I was wondering whether the work is still being carried on by the department and I should like to know what stage the development has reached.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The experimental station buildings are completed. The total amount appropriated out of this vote for this station is $14,463.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Are the buildings completed which were to be erected in this area?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the building necessary to carry on the work have been practically completed.


Mr. FAIR:: Could the minister give us the damage by forest fires in 1936 as compared with 1935??


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry, but I am unable to give my hon. friend that information. It is a pretty large order. We shall probably have it in time, but we do not have it at the moment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It would be only an estimate.


John James Kinley: Are the forests of Canada being depleted or is the natural growth equal to the cut made each year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is an almost impossible question to answer, except by way of a very general estimate. I would hesitate even to pass any opinion upon it.


John James Kinley: Does the minister not think we should know?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Probably we should know, but that would involve an extensive survey of the forest wealth of Canada. We do know that there are very large areas in which the trees are growing larger all the time and coming to a point where they will be of commercial value. In lumbering and woods operations the wood most readily accessible is the wood that is taken first. I have flown over much of British Columbia and I know there are great forests inland from the coast. It is doubtful whether on the present basis of prices this wood could be made available due to the cost of moving it out. We know that in the northern parts of Manitoba and Saskatchewan and in many parts of Alberta and Ontario there are areas where forests are being produced. This process is going on all the time. I am sure that my right hon. friend, the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett), will recall that thirty years ago in the area between Portage la Prairie and Brandon there could hardly be found one conifer tree of any kind. To-day there will be found little clumps of them here and there, and within a period of years that will again be a forest through the natural process of reforestation, if fires are kept out of it. The companies that are cutting timber, whether for saw logs or pulp, are realizing the value of leaving seed trees. One of the difficulties under the old methods of cutting was, as has been described by several hon. members in the discussion to-night, that a whole area would be denuded of' trees; but now trees are being left to reforest the area. All this knowledge is being acquired; some of it comes through the various experimental stations which the dominion government carries on under this vote, and other information is obtained concerning the work done in other countries. The important thing is to drive home to the public of Canada the vast importance of sound conservation policies and sound protection in regard to our forest work. The ravages from forest fires, for instance, are being reduced I think each year. Why? Because our people are more careful than they were when they go into the woods. They have learned that lesson; we must teach it to all.
Ravages by insects and parasites are also being studied. Reference has been made tonight to the ravage of the spruce trees in New Brunswick by a parasite called the spruce

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bud worm, and its ravages have been very considerable in the Gaspe district in Quebec. There has been discovered in Europe a parasite that destroys the spruce bud worm. These parasites have been introduced into Canada and are being propagated by the entomological branch of the Department of Agriculture in a laboratory at Belleville. As they are propagated they are turned loose in these infested forest areas, and they do their work of destroying the spruce bud worm. All these matters are constantly under review and study, and I believe we are making substantial progress, but the important thing, I repeat, is to bring home to public opinion in this country the part which the individual citizen can play in this great work of conservation.


John James Kinley: I think the minister is quite right in what he says in regard to conservation, but I would not like this discussion to be based upon the hypothesis that we are denuding the forests of Canada, if we are not actually doing it. After all, this is a matter of local concern because the provinces have charge of the forests, and in Nova Scotia this has been a vital question for many years. We have found that fire was a great hazard, that careless logging was a great hazard; but cutting is not the greatest hazard in our part of the country.
I was glad to hear the leader of the opposition say that it was advisable for the farmer to have two markets for his pulpwood. For a time in Nova Scotia the export of pulpwood was prohibited by statute except under licence by the attorney general. But the statute was not proclaimed. The export market is the market that protects the farmer who has pulpwood to sell.
I have heard that in Ontario, for instance, the annual cut does not exceed the wastage. If that is true, we should approach this conservation argument along a little different line. If we are denuding the forests of this country, it is a serious matter. If we are denuding our forests, it might be advisable not to ship so much lumber out of this country, and at the present time we are increasing our shipments of lumber. I think the federal government should be able to say when we reach the danger point with regard to the exporting or cutting of timber in Canada, and until we can do that, we cannot talk intelligently about denuding the forests of Canada.


Mr. McCUAIG:: I am particularly interested in the question of reforestation because the county of Simcoe from which I come was one of the first counties in Ontario, if not the first, which started reforestation. There we have a large area of land on which formerly
grew very fine forest pine. Here the county of Simcoe started a reforestation system, and when Mr. Drury, who was a citizen of our county, became premier of Ontario, he added his weight to the policy of reforestation in our province. There was an example, as has been suggested to-night, of how once you create public opinion in favour of a thing, it spreads throughout the country. If each of the provinces makes an effort to do its part, it will not be necessary for the federal government to do anything except assist in stimulating that public opinion, and continue its work in forest protection studies, and the operation of forest experimental stations.
As I said, in our county we have a large reforestation area, and now there are several farmers throughout the county who have land that is not fit for cultivation who have gradually been getting small trees from this reforestation plant and planting them themselves, so that to-day as one goes through the county one will see here and there several acres of spruce or pine which has been planted in the last fifteen or twenty years. The planting has gradually grown, and if other counties would do the same and have their own reforestation plants, we would soon have a great development along that line. I wish to add my voice, Mr. Chairman, to what has been said in regard to the importance of stimulating public opinion in this matter.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: May I ask what is the cost per square mile of planting those trees?


Duncan Fletcher McCuaig: I could not say offhand, but I can obtain the information for the hon. gentleman.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Thank you; I shall be very glad to have it.


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: I think the Minister of Lands and Forests in Ontario is to be commended for his policy. When a timber limit is let and the contractor starts his work, he is not allowed simply to take the valuable timber out, but he must take all the timber. I think the Minister of Lands and Forests is to be commended for removing the fire hazard by insisting on the cleaning up of the slash and the brush after a man has taken out valuable timber.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to Canadian Forestry Association,
$1,&20.
James Alexander Marshall: At the close of 1935 an advisory committee on forestry under the National Research Council was set up by the dominion government. Is there any connection between this advisory council and the Canadian Forestry Association?
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, there is not. This relates to the Canadian Forestry Association, which endeavours to disseminate information as to conservation policies, fire protection and the like, and it is simply a small grant to assist them in that work.


Harry James Barber: Is the office in Ottawa?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In Montreal, I believe.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the expenses connected with the national parks of Canada, historic sites, care of indigents in the parks, the appointment of stipendiary magistrates in the parks and the pavment of their remuneration, etc., $1,202,270.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Part of the item refers to historic sites. Does that include military sites only?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; it includes all historic sites.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I have in mind what is unquestionably an historic site. Out at Watson's Corners, in the county of Lanark, Ontario, is a very old library site; if my memory serves me correctly, it is the second oldest library site in Ontario. After the settlement of Lanark county in 1820, Lord Dalhousie, who was a patron of the settlement, established at Watson's Corners a library and gave it a great many books. The original library building has disappeared, but many of the old books remain, in an old building within a quarter of a mile of the site of the original library. In my opinion that site should be marked in some way. The foundation remains, but there is nothing to identify it except a rude sign, which people living in the locality have placed there, stating that it is the site of the original library started about 1820 by Lord Dalhousie. If appropriations are made for marking sites, this is one which, on account of its historic connection with the inauguration of libraries and the dissemination of learning in this province, should be marked.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I might say that the historic sites which are marked are those selected by the historic sites and monuments board, and the department has nothing to do with the matter beyond providing the money to mark such sites as the board selects.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It may approve it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The chairman, I know, is General E. A. Cruikshank of Ottawa, representing eastern Ontario and western Canada; the members are Mr. James H. Coyne, of St. Thomas, Ontario; Mr. Benjamin Suite, of Ottawa, representing Quebec and western

Canada; Archdeacon W. O. Raymond, Mr. W. C. Milner, of Halifax; and Judge Howay, that was the board some time ago; it has been reconstituted.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Some of those gentlemen are dead.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret I have inadvertently given some of the names of the original board.


John Ritchie MacNicol: No wonder this site has not been marked.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The present board is composed of:	General Cruikahank, chairman;
Judge Howay, representing western Canada; Doctor Webster, representing New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island; Professor Harvey, representing Nova Scotia; Professor Landon, representing western Ontario and Quebec; the Hon. E. F. Surveyer, representing the province of Quebec. These gentlemen form the historic sites and monuments board. I suggest to the hon. member for Davenport that he could quite properly place before them the merits of the site to which he has referred.


John Ritchie MacNicol: The late Senator Andrew Haydon, in his book, the Settlement of Bathurst, refers to it. Some of my own ancestral family settled around there about the year 1820, and some of them were on the library board shortly after that time. Does the department make a contribution to the marking of sites of that kind, and, if so, could it not write to the historic sites board suggesting that this site be so marked?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no objection to bringing to the notice of the board the remarks of the hon. member. But the selection of the site in each case rests with the board, and then the government provides the money to have the site properly marked.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I shall send particulars to the minister.


Mr. DAMUDE:: With reference to this board, is it necessary for historical associations throughout the country-I am thinking of the Niagara peninsula in particular- to make representations to the board in order to have money expended in their areas, or does the minister appropriate this money to different sections of, for instance, the province of Ontario?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. member could have representations made direct to the board, or he could have them made to the department, which would pass them on to the board for their consideration and recommendation.


Duncan Fletcher McCuaig: Approximately what portion of the amount comprised in this item is set aside for the purpose of historic sites?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: Thirty-five thousand dollars.


Duncan Fletcher McCuaig: Are any of these historic sites owned outright by the government, or is assistance just given in respect to them from year to year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should say they are all owned by the government. Sometimes the site is indicated by a cairn, sometimes by a monument; the memorial may take various forms, recommended by the board, but the ownership, so far as there is ownership, is vested in the crown. There may be exceptions where a plaque or plate may be put upon a building; I have observed some myself, but the ordinary monument marking historical sites is the common property of the people.


Alan Webster Neill: Has the minister received,
say within the last six months, any requests from British Columbia to take over any portions of ground as parks, and, if so, which or where?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no recollection of having received such a request from the province, nor have my officers.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This item shows an increase of $114,982. Would the minister explain how this increase arises? Is it through the establishment of new parks, or more intensive development of existing parks, or partly one and partly the other? How does it arise?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Hon. members who were
here a year ago will recall that in the special supplementary estimates we had an appropriation for the establishment of parks in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. This increase is due to the vote being placed in the main estimates this year for those two parks.	.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Last year when parks were being discussed the minister in reply to the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) said that it was the intention of the department to have a resurvey of the sites in New Brunswick this year. He went on to say: "I hope to be able to come to parliament at the next session and make a definite recommendation as to a site in New Brunswick, and ask parliament for a vote to initiate the creation of a park in that province." I would ask the minister if there is to be a resurvey of areas in New Brunswick, and what the situation is at the present time with reference to the establishment of a park there. The people of New Brunswick are, I think, getting tired of the delay. They hardly know where to place the blame, whether on the federal department or on the local government. Last year
the premier of the province I think rather intimated that the delay was due to the federal department. These parks, I understand, are of great value for tourists. We are spending millions in the province for the construction of hard-surfaced roads, and the people of that province would like to see some start made on this national park, in order that we may be able to take advantage of the tourist traffic which is rapidly increasing, and I am sure will increase still more if a park is established somewhere in New Brunswick.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: An examination was made by park officials of several sites in the province of New Brunswick during the past summer and autumn, and they gave a great deal of time and care to the matter. Those sites are at present under consideration by the provincial government. As my hon. friend is doubtless aware, the provincial government in each case has to supply the area which is finally settled upon as the park. Once the site is conveyed free of charge to the federal authorities, the responsibility is on the federal government to develop it. In connection with Cape Breton, for instance, I shall have some legislation before the house a little later making some changes in the boundary of that park. The provincial government found that it was going to cost a good deal to repossess some of the land which the Nova Scotia government had intended to convey to us. In the older settled provinces that is a problem. If the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick set aside a considerable area as a park, they have to give us a clear title to that area.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The boundaries were defined in the statute last year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; that is why I have to come back this session and ask for some changes in the definition of the boundaries. I have no doubt the New Brunswick government is examining the whole question carefully because the matter of cost is involved. There are several factors; there is cost and the suitability of the site for park purposes. As I said, the park officials have made a thorough survey of and an inquiry into the matter in New Brunswick. Half a dozen sites were suggested, but it really narrows down to three or four and they are now under consideration by the government of New Brunswick. Probably they will come back and say:	We prefer you to take this site
because we can secure title at less cost than for another site. Then it becomes a matter of negotiation between the two governments.
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We cannot determine the site of the park, because the province has to deliver the area to us with a clear title.


John Patrick Barry: I should like the minister to tell us why the national park in New Brunswick should be in the seat of the hon. member for Royal, the only Tory seat in the maritime provinces.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I indicated to the minister last year how strong I thought the claims of New Brunswick were to a park. There is a park in Nova Scotia and one in Prince Edward Island, which is a very small area. As most tourists to get to Nova Scotia, that is, those who do not go there by sea, have to pass through New Brunswick, and having regard to the fact that I was born in New Brunswick, the minister would naturally desire to place a park there. There is the further consideration that we were so poor during the time we were in office that we could not afford to start a park in New Brunswick. Had we been able to do so we should have done it, to be perfectly frank-


John James Kinley: Call it Bennett park.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I had not thought of that. If the hon. member for Huron North (Mr. Deachman) were here, he would say that I have done enough harm to this country without having a park named after me. But it seems to me the time has come when a park should be established in New Brunswick. In view of the establishment of a park in Cape Breton and one on Prince Edward Island, putting this off will only make the difficulty greater. I think the minister knows from experience that that is so. As I understand the matter, however, the government here must determine which of several sites they will accept, if several are offered by the provincial government, which may say: We are prepared to supply title for a park at either so-and-so or so-and-so, and then this government must say whether it will accept that site for a park. For instance, in Nova Scotia they offered a site in Cape Breton and the federal government accepted it. Prince Edward Island, not to be outdone by Nova Scotia, provided a small area, and the government accepted it. In New Brunswick there are three areas that I know were discussed; one is in one of the old counties-it is not a Tory county either, which is very much to be regretted in the interests of the nation as a whole and of my hon. friend in particular- there is one in the county of Charlotte and one in the county of Albert. Another area has also been suggested. If I have some prejudice in favour of the county in which I was born, the minister will understand my 
feelings. I urge the desirability of some action being taken at an early date, because the longer the matter is allowed to go on the more difficult it is going to be for the minister. Of course I should not be concerned about that, but on the other hand I am interested in the results, and I am sure the member of the cabinet from New Brunswick is also very anxious about that park. He knows it will not go to his constituency or any part related to it; therefore he can afford to see that it goes without delay to one of the other places which have been suggested. I do hope the minister will give the matter his most favourable consideration. I quite understand the point he makes; the cost of acquiring the property must be borne entirely by the province, but the province usually offers alternate sites and asks the dominion to determine which should be selected.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I may say that if the province is not in a position to do that within the next few weeks, I think I shall probably bring in legislation that the site may be determined by proclamation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not by order in council, surely.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Oh, yes; under the exceptional circumstances of the case, in order to give this park to the province of New Brunswick, and to meet the wishes of my right hon. friend, I am quite willing to recommend that the site may be selected by order in council. We also hope to have an appropriation to cover the cost of the survey work so that it may be commenced this year at any rate.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: Will the appropriation be in the supplementary estimates this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I hope we shall be able to find some money for it. All I can say to my hon. friend is that I am going to do my best.


Mr. LEDUC:: I note that in the province of Quebec we have not one national park. Could the minister tell me the reason for that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, really I have no particular reason to give, except perhaps that the province of Quebec in many of its aspects is a great park all through.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Quebec has the plains of Abraham, which cost us an enormous amount every year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, there is the national park at the plains of Abraham on which a great deal of money has been spent, but I would ask my hon. friend not to press me for a park in Quebec this year.


Rodolphe Leduc: I do not want to press the minister this year, but I should like to know

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if it is the province of Quebec that has to make the request of the federal government or if it is the federal government that has to suggest to the province that a park should be established.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The province has to offer the site for the park and deliver it to the federal government free of charge. If the provincial authorities are in a position to do that, then we consider the question of developing the site.


Rodolphe Leduc: I suppose during past years the federal government never suggested to any province that it should supply a site for a park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, not during the past year in any case.


Mr. CAMERON (Cape Breton):: I should like to ask the minister if my understanding is correct, that the increase of S114.000 represents the additional amount that his department intends to expend on the park in Cape Breton this year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; as a matter of fact the amount that will be spent in Prince Edward Island and Cape Breton this year is more than the increase in the vote, as I told the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart) who inquired as to the reason for the increase. The vote for the Cape Breton and Prince Edward Island parks is in the main estimates this year, which was not the case last year. The amount to be spent on these two parks is in excess of the increase in the vote.


Robert Fair: Could the minister give us the amount allotted to each province under this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is rather difficult. I have not the vote segregated by provinces.


Robert Fair: Could I have it for each park, then?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In what parks is my hon. friend interested? Perhaps I can give him the information in that way.


Robert Fair: Wainwright buffalo park; Elk island; Jasper and Banff.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amounts appropriated for these parks are as follows:
Banff	$243,000
Buffalo park, Wainwright.. ..	53,000
Elk island	 20,100
Jasper	 127,000


Robert Fair: Now could the minister give us the revenue from each of those parks last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The revenue from April 1, 1936, to December 31, 1937, was as follows:
Banff	$111,600
Buffalo park, Wainwright.. ..	10,288
Elk island	 1,317
Jasper	 30,925


Daniel (Dan) McIvor: Mr. Chairman, as we have fallen between the two stools, the wise east and the great west, and we have the coal subventions against us also, I was wondering whether the Fort William district should not receive some compensation. There we have a great waterfall with a 190 foot head. It is not as great as Niagara, but it comes next to it. We have petitioned for a park there; it is right on the highway, and we believe it would be a place of beauty and a joy forever for people from the great east to come out and stop at Kakabeka falls. I hope the minister will pause there some time and feel the thrill of its beauty. Kakabeka falls is one of the beauty spots of our country; it is well worthy of a national park, and seeing that the coal subventions are not helping us out I hope this suggestion will receive consideration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I should like to ask the minister whether this item includes expenditures on roads in the parks?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would more properly come under the vote for surveys and engineering, I should think, or under any of those items on the next page. The engineering costs come under the next vote.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As long as it is another vote, it is all right.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I should like to ask the minister another question: I see there is provision for the appointment of stipendiary magistrates. At Banff there was a magistrate serving without pay, but he was replaced by a gentleman who is able to get a salary. Why is it necessary to do that?


Mr. ELLIOTT (Middlesex):: Maybe he was worth more.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It can hardly be said that is so.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The present magistrate is also making special investigation into relief cases. He is endeavouring to tighten up a little bit on the relief administration in the parks. Those who are applying for relief work have to make good their case before a board on which the magistrate serves.
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Richard Bedford Bennett: Who is the magistrate there now?
Mr. CllERAR:	A gentleman named Mr. Hunter.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He would not serve without salary at one time, and was replaced by a gentleman who did serve without salary [DOT]-Mr. Wilson I think was the name-but now Mr. Hunter is serving and getting a salary. How much is he being paid for tightening up relief?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: He gets $75 a month, but
tightening up on relief is only a part of his duties.


Mr. GREEN:: Has the minister had any
representations from British Columbia asking that Garibaldi park, a splendid mountain area in the coast range north of Vancouver, be taken over by the national parks system? It is my understanding that this matter has been placed before the department by many bodies, and I should like to know if it has been considered.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The suggestion that the
federal government take over the administration of Garibaldi park has been made to the department, but so far no action has been taken. Possibly when we complete some of the rather expensive work in connection with the development of existing parks, we might consider Garibaldi, but I have a shrewd suspicion that a great deal of money would be required to complete the roads to the top of Garibaldi park, and it would be much easier to resist the pressure to spend money on a road when the park is not under the control of the dominion.


Howard Charles Green: It would be a great attraction to United States tourists who come up the Pacific highway by the thousands. It is just possible it might be a paying proposition -I think probably it would. Has the matter been considered by the department?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It has been considered
only in a general way. I do not question what the hon. member has said. As a matter of fact last October I flew over Garibaldi park, and I must say that from the standpoint of scenic grandeur it certainly is magnificent. After all, however, we must carry on the work of the department according to the means we have at our disposal. I have no doubt that in due time Garibaldi park may be considered, but I would ask the hon. member not to press it too closely at the present time.


Howard Charles Green: I believe the parks branch
is losing a great amount of revenue due to the

fact that the Big Bend highway is not yet completed. I am quite sure that when it is completed American tourists will come up to Vancouver, and from there go through to Banff. I should like to know the present position with regard to the uncompleted portion of the Big Ben highway which, as the minister is aware, is the only uncompleted portion of the trans-Canada highway in western Canada, and for that reason also is very important.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That matter will be discussed under another vote. I may say, however, that there is an appropriation-I have forgotten just how much-to carry on the work on that section of the trans-Canada highway. It is scarcely necessary to remind the hon. member that the federal government is building that section of the highway to relieve the province of British Columbia of expenditures in connection with it. That was done because road building in British Columbia is a costly affair, owing to the rugged nature of the country. Possibly after that road is completed and we complete some other work, we might be in a position to consider claims with respect to Garibaldi park.


Howard Charles Green: When will the Big Bend
link be completed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: 1939, I think.


Howard Charles Green: How many miles are there?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is work to be done between Golden and Donald this year. The road from Donald to the Canoe river, including a bridge across the Canoe river, is practically completed. A substantial part of the road between the Canoe river and Revelstoke is completed, and balance of the work will be under way this year. There is some work to be done between Golden and Donald.


Howard Charles Green: Does the minister know
how many miles?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot give that information at the moment, but I shall have it when the vote is before the committee.


John Patrick Barry: Will the minister indicate how much of the vote is to be spent in each of the provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry we have not the vote set up in a manner which will give that information readily. If I had a lightning calculator here, I could do it.


John Patrick Barry: Can the minister procure it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; we can procure almost anything.

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Richard Bedford Bennett: That is a rather doubtful statement.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If the hon. gentleman will ask me the question when another estimate is before the committee, I shall have the information for him.


Mr. HILL:: From information published in the press of New Brunswick last year it would appear that six sites in that province have been discovered, and of those six sites that at Lepreau in Charlotte county measured up about twenty-five per cent more effective for park purposes than did any other site. I have been over all the sites, and I believe I can speak with authority in stating that the one at Lepreau lends itself to the development of a national park to a greater extent than any other in New Brunswick. In view of the favourable report of the inspector, why was it not selected?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have endeavoured to indicate that the matter of selection does not lie alone with this government. One condition in the establishment of a park is that the park area must be conveyed with a clear title by the provincial government, and when it comes to that question I can understand the difficulty with which they must contend. For instance, if much property has to be repossessed there is the matter of settling for it.


Burton Maxwell Hill: There is more crown land on this site than on any other in the province.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am not familiar with the details, but I am simply pointing out some of the difficulties with which the ' provincial government will have to deal. That difficulty has arisen in connection with Cape Breton Island park.


John Patrick Barry: Under what vote should I ask the question I asked a little while ago?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If my hon. friend will ask his question on any of the votes for the surveys and engineering branch, I shall be able to give him the information he requires.


Alan Webster Neill: Was the request in connection with Garibaldi park, referred to by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green), made by the provincial government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe it was made three years ago.


Alan Webster Neill: With all due deference to the hon. member for Vancouver South, I agree with the minister when he says that he thinks the government should go slow in taking over this park because of the fact that it would cost
so much money to develop it. The dominion government already have four mountain parks in British Columbia and this would make the fif th. While the officials of the department have not admitted it openly, I believe it is their opinion that they do not want any more mountain parks in British Columbia. What they do want is a seaside park which would provide a variety of entertainment for tourists coming to this country. It would also provide a low elevation resort where the people from the central prairies could come for a necessary holiday. They get upset and debilitated by the high altitude; the women become very nervous, and even the poorest of the tourists have Ford cars in which they could come to this district only four hours from Vancouver. At very small expense they could have a holiday for six weeks, a rest that would be of the utmost value. I do not know what the department has in the east, but it has no seaside park in British Columbia. The area to which I refer is on the Oyster river. This matter has been presented privately if not officially to the department.
To create a national park in this district would cost the department practically nothing. It would not be necessary to build expensive roads as there is already a paved road going right through the district. There are electric lights practically on the premises. There is a wonderful trout stream right at hand and there is something like three miles of the best possible beach. Last year they had a picnic at which 6,000 people attended and the beach was so large that they were hardly noticeable. Back of the beach is a beautiful park-like area where the underbrush has been cut away, leaving only the large trees. A wonderful park right at hand and the only cost to the government would be a couple of thousand dollars to put up tourist cabins and the like. Apart from that, the park would be self-sustaining.
I do not believe this matter has been presented by the provincial government, which shows that they have been lacking in their duty and in keeping their promises. I want this matter to go on record so that the minister will give it serious consideration when it is presented to him. Perhaps it was by certain members of the department who have been retired, but the fact is that the opinion has *been expressed to me that the government did not want another mountain park in western Canada, that what they did want was a sea-level park. I do submit that the minister should take notice of this matter against the day when the British Columbia government wakes up and fulfils its promise of offering this park to the government.
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Mr. CHURCH:: Mr. Chairman, for the past few years I have been endeavouring to bring to the attention of the government the utter absence of national parks in the province of Ontario. With the exception of a few acres on Pelee island, and two or three other little places, there are no national parks in Ontario. This matter was brought to the attention of the government by the late member for Mus-koka, Doctor McGibbon. The government, through its various departments, has very heavy investments in land and waterpower sites in the Trent valley, the St. Lawrence valley, the Ottawa valley and on the Muskoka lakes, Georgian bay and lake Simcoe. The late member for York North, Mr. Lennox, also brought this matter to the attention of the government. As I said before, there are a few acres on Pelee island, a few more on the St. Lawrence and in the Ottawa valley, and those are all the national parks we have in Ontario. Ontario has been overlooked absolutely although we pay 40 per cent of the cash taxes of Canada. Every time Ontario wants something, we are always told it comes under anbther department.
There are a number of beautiful summer resorts along the Trent valley canal which are federal property. If it was any country but Canada, this beautiful acreage of parks and scenery to be found through the Muskoka lakes, on Georgian bay, on lake Simcoe and along the St. Lawrence would be linked up in a general parks' scheme. The Trent canal belongs to the oxcart days. It is used only for a few pleasure boats which can get up as far as Bobcaygeon. All these points should be linked up in a general parks' system. Many of the members of the faculty of the Johns Hopkins university are Canadians and they have their summer homes in Muskoka and these other districts. I have been calling this to the attention of the present minister, as I did to the previous minister, but I cannot make any headway. I think the province of Ontario is entitled to some additional consideration.
In northern Ontario there is a provincial park, known as Algonquin park, and a few other small parks throughout the province, but that is not enough. These other wonderful districts are being allowed to lie wasting and in idleness. Apparently a beautiful countryside means nothing in this country. We could have a modern Switzerland in the Muskoka, Simcoe, Georgian bay and Lake of Bays districts, as can be seen from what has been done at Huntsville. The time has come for us to do something, as the tourist trade is just in its infancy. Two million
(Mr. Neill.]
people came into these Ontario districts last year and we could get four or five million with the winter added if something were done.
The government has a tremendous investment in property and lands in the province of Ontario and its canal systems. There are acres and acres of beautiful countryside; there are many beautiful inland rivers and streams, all of which could be linked up' in a really national system of parks such as they have on the continent. All this would prove of great revenue to the government if something were done. Many Americans have beautiful homes in the Muskoka district, and this is just one district in the province.
A bill known as the Borden-Cochrane bill was brought up in 1911 to provide a system of good roads in Canada, but Ontario got little and this matter seems to have been overlooked altogether. These expenditures on good roads would link up our parks' system, as they do across the border. I do not say that the present minister should do it all, but the various departments should be gone over to bring about coordinated effort in that direction. The president of the United States has a large conservation scheme linked up with parks, playgrounds, good roads, and all that kind of thing, and it is providing a great deal of relief work. I am very much surprised to see that there are not in the estimates some votes for relief work in connection with parks in Ontario. The province of Quebec gets $2,750,000, while Ontario gets about nothing, and Ontario will continue to get nothing unless some members from Ontario rise up in their places when the estimates are before the house and ask for something for Ontario in the various departments. I do not ask for anything out of the way at this moment, but I do ask for equality of treatment. Ontario has been overlooked ever since confederation so far as national parks are concerned, while millions are being spent throughout the rest of the country on national parks; yet there is in Ontario land under five or six federal departments of this government lying idle and waste. It is said that the tourist traffic in Ontario next summer will be the greatest we have ever had, and I do ask the minister to be kind enough to look over his own department and have a survey made along the lines I suggest, and as was requested by the late member for Muskoka, Doctor McGibbon.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have listened with interest to the observations made by the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. Church). There are now three national park areas in Ontario. There is Point Pelee park; then in Georgian bay

Supply-Resources-Parks
there are thirty islands reserved for a national park; then in the St. Lawrence river there are thirteen islands between Morrisburg and Kingston reserved for a national park. So there are those three national park areas in Ontario.
I appreciate the importance of the observations made by my hon. friend, but I would remind him that the province has to offer the area to the federal government for park purposes, and it must be up to standard requirements for park purposes. Possibly in a few years consideration could be given to his suggestion. I would ask him to bear in mind, however, that they have already in Ontario national park areas in the Georgian bay islands and the islands of the St. Lawrence, which are among the finest scenic spots in Canada, attracting a great many tourists every year.


Thomas Langton Church: I read a return I moved for, brought down in the house along the same line as the minister has now given the committee. I would not give Queen's park in Toronto for one hundred parks like the ones the minister mentions he has now in Ontario. They are worth nothing to the tourist trade and they attract hardly anybody. Here is the province of Ontario contributing 40 per cent of the revenue of Canada, and yet we cannot get a park along the line I have suggested. The minister says he has a few islands for us. Of course, he has a few islands; one is Pelee island, and the others are some small parks and submerged islands that nobody ever visits. I'he province of Ontario gets nothing. We have no national park system in Ontario at all; we are entitled to something, and I am going to continue to bring this up year after year as long as I am a member of parliament. Little short of an earthquake will wake up this department. It seems to be troubled from the head down with sleeping sickness, and I think a doctor ought to be called in. If a doctor were called in, he would cure this condition. We have in Ontario lake Muskoka, Georgian bay, like Simcoe, the Lake of Bays and other places which for public health are unrivalled, and I think something ought to be done towards creating a national park system in the province of Ontario coordinated with a provincial system and development.
Mr. McCANN; May I ask the hon. gentleman what advantage, if any, there would be in the province of Ontario turning over to the federal government the parks which it has already developed?


Thomas Langton Church: I want a park system like Banff, a national plan.


Mr. LOCKHART:: May I inquire from the minister if the federal government makes any contribution whatever to such schemes as the Victoria Park Commission at Niagara Falls?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Is there anything in the estimates for historic sites in the Niagara peninsula, such as Fort Erie, Ridgeway and other historic spots all through the peninsula?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have an amount in the estimates for historic sites, but whether any of the particular sites my hon. friend has in mind are covered by the item in the estimates, I cannot at the moment say. The commission on historic sites and monuments makes its recommendations to the department, where the historic sites should be marked, and how they should be marked, and we appropriate the money. Whether or not any recommendations are in from the commission covering any of the places my hon. friend has in mind, I cannot at the moment say.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: I raise the point because along the Niagara frontier the moment you cross the international boundary you are struck with the contrast in the way these historic sites are preserved on the American side. On the Canadian side, at Fort Mississauga and some of these other places, the historic sites are in a most dilapidated condition as compared with the sites on the American side.


Frederick George Sanderson: I would point out to the hon. member that the item which includes provision for historic sites was under discussion this afternoon and it now stands. He will have an opportunity to raise his question when that vote comes up again. Historic sites do not come under this vote.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister give us some idea of the number of tourists who visited the different national parks last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total was more than 900,000 visitors, but how they were divided up among the different parks I cannot say. The largest number was at Point Pelee, which must be a centre of very considerable interest. We have not the information at hand as to the number visiting the individual parks.


Howard Charles Green: How does that compare with the year 1935?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is up about fifteen per cent.


Mr. WALSH:: Following up the question that was asked a short time ago by one of the hon. members from Quebec, may I ask whether I understood the minister correctly
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that the province must initiate the transaction that would lead to the establishment of a national park within its boundaries?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would be one way of getting the thing started.


William Allen Walsh: Has the minister had any correspondence during the past two years with the government of Quebec relative to a park within that province?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no recollection of it during the past fifteen or sixteen months. What happened prior to that I am not in a position to say.


William Allen Walsh: There is no scheme of that kind under consideration by the department at the present time?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have no recollection of its having been brought to the notice of the department. There has been no official offer, though there has been an occasional discussion.


William Allen Walsh: I assume that the department would be in a receptive mood if the province took the initiative?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We should always consider suggestions that came from the province. How receptive the mood would be is a matter on which I can give the hon. member no assurance at this time.


John Patrick Barry: Will the minister inform the committee how much of this money is appropriated to each of the provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have under my hand an approximate estimate which was calculated by the director of parks since the hon. member brought up the point a few moments ago: Alberta, about S500.000; British Columbia, $73,000-I am giving round figures- Saskatchewan, $53,000; Manitoba, $55,000; Ontario, $18,000; Nova Scotia, $103,000; Prince Edward Island, $40,000. The larger parks and by far the greater number are in the province of Alberta. That is where the finest mountain scenery in the world is found, and that is where the parks are located.


John Charles Alexander Cameron: The province in each case must furnish the park. The province of Nova Scotia will have expended close to $1,000,000 to acquire the site of the park there, and I suggest that the department should make a much more generous provision than a little over $100,000 for the current year for the development of that park.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.

Tuesday, March 2, 1937