1937-01-20

FARM IMPROVEMENT AND EMPLOYMENT PLAN

Mr. STEWART:: 1.	Has a farm employment scheme for the relief of single unemployed men been adopted?
2.	If so, what is the monthly compensation payable: (a) to the employee, in cash or otherwise; (b) to the employer?
3.	What portion of the compensation is payable by: (a) the dominion; (b) the province; (c) the farmer?
4.	What provinces have entered into an agreement for the adoption of this scheme?
5.	What amount has been paid to each province by the dominion during the current fiscal year to January 1, 1937, under such agreements?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1,	2, 3 and 4. Agreements were tabled January 15, setting forth the arrangements entered into between the dominion government and the governments of the provinces of Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and
British Columbia, respecting the farm improvement and employment plan.
5.	Nil.



FEDERAL HOUSING ACT-LOANS TO MONTREAL MUNICIPALITIES

Mr. MALLETTE:: 1.	What loans have been made to date under the Federal Housing Act, 1935, in the municipalities of Montreal?
2.	How many loans and what amount in each municipality?


Mr. DUNNING:: 1.	Up to January 15, 1937, 211 loans amounting to $2,071,670 were made under the Dominion Housing Act in the municipalities of Montreal, (i.e. the municipalities on the island of Montreal).
2. Municipality	No of Loans	AmountMontreal	.. 9S	$1,059,253Mount Royal.. ..	.. 40	396,820Hampstead	.. 31	290,076Outremont	.. 17	175,880Pointe Claire.. ..	.. 7	26,466Westmount	.. 4	45,175Cote Ste Luc.. ..	.. 4	33,650Verdun	.. 3	13,500Dorval	.. 2	8,300Lachine	.. 2	7,150St. Laurent	.. 2	12,000Valois	.. 1	3,400211	$2,071,670



CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT-LOAN STATISTICS

Mr. MALLETTE:: 1.	What number of loans were made under the Farm Loan Act, during the year 1936, in each of the provinces?
2.	What was the total amount of such loans in each of the provinces?


Mr. DUNNING:: The following answers are furnished by the Canadian Farm Loan Board:
1 and 2.	1st	April, 1936-	-31st	December,1936.	Approved	Disbursed	No.	Amount	No.	AmountB.C	54	$ 103,150	53	$ 104,573Alta.. ..	343	698,750	377	820,343Sask.. ..	1,069	2,249,575	999	2,203,619Man.. ..	413	895,200	464	1,142,156Ont.. ..	387	790,500	346	678,842Que.. ..	1,573	3,295,500	1,440	2,863,721N.B	64	91,800	66	94,079N.S	147	239,450	127	228,801P.E.I.. ..	109	185,250	107	191,465Total ..	4,159	$8,549,175	3,979	$8,327,599
Questions



MOOSE VALLEY-KIPLING, SASK., MAIL SERVICE

Mr. COLD WELL:: 1.	Was contract for carrying mail between Moose Valley and Kipling advertised or tenders invited?
2.	Who held this contract in 1934-35?
3.	What amount was paid to the above for this service?
4.	Has the contract been terminated? If so, when?
5.	Has a new appointment been made? If so, who has been appointed?
6.	How many applications were there?
7.	What tenders, if any, were submitted, and what were the amounts of same?
8.	What remuneration is being paid to the present mail carrier?


Mr. ELLIOTT (Middlesex):: 1.	No.
2.	James Farrell.
3.	$124 per annum.
4.	Contract expired 31st December, 1936.
6.	Yes. George L. Taylor.
6.	Tenders were not invited. The expenditure involved in this case is under $200 per annum and section 73 of the Post Office Act empowers the Postmaster General in such case to make a new contract without the invitation of tenders.
7.	Answered by No. 6.
8.	$124 per annum.



CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT-BROME-MISSISQUOI

Mr. GOSSELIN:: 1.	How many farmers of Brome-Missisquoi, in the year 1936, have applied for a loan under the provisions of the Canadian Farm Loan Act and amendments thereto ?
2.	In how many cases were loans granted and actually made?
3.	What is the total amount of the loans?


Charles Avery Dunning: The following answer is furnished by the Canadian Farm Loan Board: The records of the Canadian Farm Loan Board are not kept by constituencies and the information asked for is not now available.



TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY-MONTREAL TO OTTAWA SECTION

Mr. LALONDE:: 1.	Since July 1, 1936, has the government of the province of Quebec recommended to the dominion government that the location of the trans-Canada highway from Montreal to Ottawa be changed to serve the actual line of highway No. 8 from Grenville to Hull?
2.	If so, what is the date of the recommendation?
3.	What was the reply of the government of Canada?


Mr. ROGERS:: 1.	No.
2.	and 3. See reply to No. 1.



NATIONAL DEFENCE-PURCHASE OF DESTROYERS

Mr. BERTRAND (Prescott):: 1.	During the year 1936, did the dominion government purchase two destroyers for national defence purposes?
2.	If so, how was the purchase of these destroyers authorized?
3.	What price was paid for each of them?
4.	To what service will these two vessels be assigned?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: In 1928, the government of the United Kingdom lent H.M.C. ships "Champlain" and "Vancouver" to the Canadian government; since that time, these ships have formed part of the Royal Canadian Navy. The government of the United Kingdom decided that these ships, by reason of age and deterioration, were to be rendered ineffective as ships of war, as of December 31, 1936, in accordance with the terms of the London Naval Treaty of 1930. H.M.C. ships "Champlain" and "Vancouver" have been demilitarized and, it is expected, will shortly be disposed of in Canada on behalf of the government of the United Kingdom.
It being necessary to replace "Champlain" and "Vancouver," the problem received very careful consideration, and, on ascertaining that it would take too long to build ships in Canada or elsewhere, negotiations towards finding replacements from the Royal Navy were commenced in 1936.
The price finally agreed upon is $1,000,000 per ship, including armament and stores. The replacements will be named H.M.C. ships "Fraser" and "St. Laurent," and will be commissioned in the Royal Canadian Navy within the next few weeks.



CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT-LOANS TO BRITISH COLUMBIA

Mr. REID:: 1.	Since the inception of the Canadian Farm Loan Board, how many applications for loans have been made in the province of British Columbia?
2.	How many loans have been granted in the said province?
3.	What is the total amount of money involved in the loans made?
4.	How many loans have been made to those resident in the lower Fraser Valley, the interior, northern British Columbia, and Vancouver island?


Charles Avery Dunning: The following answers are furnished by the Canadian Farm Loan Board:
To December 31, 1936:
1.	Applications received, 2,756.
2.	Number of loans approved, 682; amount, $1,752,800.

Questions
3.	Number of loans disbursed, 666; amount, $1,716,860.
4.	The records of the Canadian Farm Loan Board are not kept by local districts and the information asked for is not now available.



CANADIAN MILITIA REGIMENTS

Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	How many regiments are there in the Canadian militia?
2.	In such regiments: (a) how many lieutenant-colonels are there; (b) how many honorary lieutenant-colonels are there?


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: 1.
Arm of Permanent Non-Permanent Total Service Active Militia Active Militia
Cavalry	2	20	22Infantry	3	89	92Total	
1142.	(a) The respective authorized peace establishments provide for each regiment to have a lieutenant-colonel as commanding officer, who may receive pay for that rank. Grant of such rank is subject to the officer concerned obtaining necessary qualifications prescribed by the regulations. The total number at present appointed is ninety-two
(92), including six (6) supernumerary (see note below). The remainder are yet to be appointed under the re-organization.
(b)	Each regiment may, under the regulations, have appointed thereto one (1) honorary lieutenant-colonel, who does not receive pay and allowances. The total number at present appointed is fifty-three (53), including one (1) supernumerary (see note below).
Note: The reorganization of the non-permanent active militia has, in certain instances, where two regiments have amalgamated, entailed one of the former lieutenant-colonels commanding, and also honorary lieutenant-colonels, to be carried supernumerary, as a temporary measure, pending absorption or disposal.



EXPORTS TO THE UNITED STATES, 1935 AND 1936

Mr. STEWART:: 1.	What is the total value of Canadian exports to the United States in each of the years 1935 and 1936?
2.	What is the total value of Canadian exports to the United States in each of the years 1935 and 1936 in respect to which no tariff changes were made by the Canada-United States agreement dated November 15, 1935?


Norman McLeod Rogers: See statement below;
Domestic Exports from Canada to the United States (Twelve months ended December 31, >1935 and 1936)
Items subject to a reduction in rate	
Items bound at a low rate	
Items bound to free entry	
Total Above Items	
Items not affected by the Canada-United States trade agreement	
Total domestic exports to United States..
Twelve	Months ended	
December 31-		Percentage
1935	1936	Increase$	S	%35.723,003	59,281,878	65-93,482,351	4,751,407	36-4129,813,279	152,775,607	17-7169,018,633	216,808,892	28-3189,551,103	189,855,675	0-2358,569,736	406,664.567	13-4



MILITARY SERVICE ACT, 1917

Mr. BRUNELLE:: 1.	Is the Conscription Act, 1917, still in force?
2.	If not, when, and how was it declared inoperative?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The Conscription Act 1917, which is cited as "The Military Service Act 1917", is not still in force.
2.	This act is spent and ceased to be in force after demobilization, following the conclusion of the war and the completion and fulfilment
of the consequential provisions of the act. It was noted as being spent in the Revised Statutes of Canada 1927, vol. V.



PACIFIC COAST HALIBUT FISHERIES

Mr. REID:: 1. Has the attention of the government been drawn to press dispatches that fishing boats from foreign countries might invade the halibut grounds off the coast of British Columbia, which grounds are being protected under the International Halibut Treaty of 1924, signed by the United States and Canada?
Questions

2.	If so, have any inquiries or representations been made in connection with this proposed invasion of these protected halibut grounds, either to the United States, Great Britain or any other countries?


Mr. NEILL:: 1.	Has the attention of the government been called to the proposed operation on the Pacific coast, off the Canadian coast, of mother ships from both Britain and the orient, which would catch both halibut and salmon in large quantities, with none of the conservation restrictions imposed on Canadian citizens?
2.	If so, has the government taken any steps to deal with the situation?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: Mr. Speaker,
as these two questions are similar, they may be answered at the one time.
The government are aware of the situation to which these questions refer and have been actively in touch with it for some time. They attach the highest importance to the conservation of these great Pacific fisheries and to the maintenance of the protective measures for halibut fishery which have been gradually
developed through many years' cooperation with the United States by treaty and joint administrative action. They look with anxiety upon any activities which might threaten the object of these measures. The matter has been under discussion with other governments concerned for a considerable time, and the government are considering what further representations and action are open to them.



HOUSING SCHEME LOANS

Mr. REID:: 1.	How many loans have been made under the housing scheme in the various provinces up to December 31, 1930?
2.	What is the total amount of money involved in the loans so made?
3.	What are the names of the various loan companies cooperating with the government in regard to the housing scheme in the various provinces?
4.	How many British Columbia companies are cooperating with the government in connection with the housing scheme in the province of British Columbia?


Charles Avery Dunning: 1 and 2.
			No. of
	No. of		family units
Province	Loans	Amount	providedPrince Edward Island	S 32,364	6Nova Scotia	420,737	96New Brunswick	
12	45,179	13Quebec	2.233,394	467Ontario	2,104.085	418Manitoba	100,564	12Saskatchewan	-	-Alberta	-	-British Columbia	31,500	10724	$4,967,823	1,0223.	Sun Life Asurance Co. of Canada, Montreal, P.Q.; London Life Insurance Co., London, Ont.; North American Life Assurance Co., Toronto, Ont.; Mutual Life Assurance Co, of Canada, Waterloo, Ont.; Great-West Life Assurance Co., Winnipeg, Man.; The Northern Life Asurance Co. of Canada, London, Ont.; Canada Life Assurance Co., Toronto, Ont.; Confederation Life Association, Toronto, Ont.; The 'Equitable Life Insurance Co. of Canada, Waterloo, Ont.; The Manufacturers Life Insurance Co., Toronto, Ont,; The T. Eaton Life Assurance Co., Toronto, Ont.; The Grey & Bruce Trust & Savings Co., Owen Sound, Ont.; Community Trusts Corporation, Chatham, Ont.; The Sterling Trusts Corporation, Toronto, Ont.; Capital Trust Corporation, Ltd., Ottawa, Ont.; The Premier Trust Co.,

Toronto, Ont.; Guardian Trust Company, Montreal, Que.; Osier & Nanton Trust Co., Winnipeg, Man.; The Ontario Loan & Debenture Co., London, Ont.; The Central Trust Co. of Canada, Moncton, N.B.; The Waterloo Trust & Savings Co., Kitchener, Ont.; Canada Permanent Mortgage Corporation, Toronto, Ont.; Guelph & Ontario Investment & Savings Society, Guelph, Ont.; National Trust Co. Ltd., Toronto, Ont.; Sherbrooke Trust Co., Sherbrooke, Que.; La Caisse Populaire de la Cite de Shawinigan Falls, P.Q.; Tie Western Savings & Loan Association, Winnipeg, Man.
4.	No companies incorporated under the laws of British Columbia are cooperating with the government in making loans under the Dominion Housing Act in the province of British Columbia.

Questions as Orders for Returns



CANADIAN FARM LOAN ACT-LOANS TO SASKATCHEWAN

Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	What is the total number of loans granted In the province of Saskatchewan, from October 14, 1935, to January 18, 1937, under the Canadian Farm Loan Act?
2.	What is the largest individual loan that has been granted?
3.	How many loans have been granted in the electoral district of Humboldt?
4.	What is the total amount of the said loans in the Humboldt electoral district?


Charles Avery Dunning: The following answers are furnished by the Canadian Farm Loan Board:
1.	October 14, 1935, to December 31, 1936: Approved and disbursed or in process of disbursement, first mortgage, number 1,882, amount $3,550,550; second mortgage, number 1,163, amount, $702,275; total, $4,252,825.
2.	$5,000 on first mortgage; $6,000 on first and second mortgage.
3	and 4. The records of the Canadian Farm Loan Board are not kept iby electoral districts and the informtaion asked for is not now available.



FARMERS' CREDITORS ARRANGEMENT ACT- SASKATCHEWAN

Mr. FLEMING:: 1.	How many cases have the present board of review under the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act dealt with in the province of Saskatchewan ?
2.	How many cases have they heard so far?
3.	What is the total amount of debts that the present board of review have reduced since they came into office?


Mr. DUNNING:: 1.	Cases referred to present Saskatchewan board of review from date of appointment, August 17, 1936, to January 16, 1937-828.
2.	310.
3.	Debts reviewed, $2,554,031. Reductions effected, $1,139,770.



NATIONAL REVENUE-$100 EXEMPTION REGULATION

Mr. ISNOR:: In connection with Item 703 (b): "Goods valued at not more than a hundred dollars included in the baggage accompanying residents of Canada returning from abroad after an absence from Canada of not less than forty-eight hours, and acquired by them for personal or household use, etc."
1.	Has this section been enforced in regard to children, irrespective of age?
2.	Have any amendments been considered by the Minister of National Revenue?
3.	Has action been taken as suggested under date of May 27, 1936, when this item was under discussion, to fix the age limit at sixteen?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	No.
2.	No amendments have been considered, pending review in the light of experience gained after the item has been in, actual operation over a period of a year.
3.	Under regulations prescribed by the minister and published in departmental memorandum dated June 9, 1936, the exemption from duty provided in tariff item 703 (b) is not granted to any person under the age of fourteen years.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Have those who were on active service overseas, or on the high-seas on a man-of-war, or in the armies or navy of an ally of His Majesty during the Great war, been accorded a preference in the civil service examinations of Canada?
2.	If so, since when and how many of such candidates have secured, under this preference, positions in the Canadian civil service?
3.	Have any allied countries of His Majesty during the Great war, accorded a similar preference to Canadian candidates for the civil service of those countries?
4.	If so, what countries, and since when?


CANADIAN MILITIA-HONORARY LIEUTENANT-COLONELS
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	What are the names and addresses of the honorary lieutenant-colonels of the Canadian mil itia ?
2.	(a) On what date was each of them appointed; (b) for what record of military services, and (c) upon whose recommendation?
3.	What are their functions?
4.	What formalities are required for the appointment of an honorary lieutenant-colonel?
5.	Are they supplied with uniforms and arms by the state?
6.	If so, with what uniforms and what arms, and what is the annual cost for each individual?
7.	Are the honorary lieutenant-colonels required to pay a tax, or any contribution or honorarium to the state in such capacity?
8.	If so, is same paid before or after their appointment has been published in the Canada Gazette, and how much?
9.	What do the honorary lieutenant-colonels cost the country?
10.	In their capacity as such, how much do they pay to the state?
11.	What services have the honorary lieutenant-colonels, as such, rendered to the state to date?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, cablegrams, memoranda and other documents exchanged between the Prime Minister of Can-



Public Health-Mr. Plaxton
ada or any Canadian official and the Primt Minister of Great Britain or any official 01 representative of the British government or crown, regarding the proposed marriage and: abdication of His former Majesty, King: Edward VIII, or the succession to the throne, and accession of His Majesty King George VI. Also a copy of all orders in council relative to the above matter.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker,
I have already placed on the table of the house much of the information asked for in the motion. In addition I have given the house a detailed statement of what there was in the way of correspondence, and I do not believe it would be in the public interest to table any more documents. May I point out to the hon. member that no similar request has been made in the British House of Commons, nor have the parliaments of any other of the self-governing dominions with which I have been in touch thought it necessary or advisable to table the correspondence. The correspondence was not a one-sided matter concerning only this government, but concerned all other governments of the empire, and for these reasons I suggest the motion should not be passed. I hope the hon. member will not press it.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.



POSTAL SERVICE-HOURS OF LABOUR

Mr. HEAPS:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, correspondence and other documents, concerning the changes in regulations respecting hours of labour and working conditions in the dominion postal service.



FALHER, ALTA., POSTMASTERSHIP

Mr. PELLETIER:: For a copy of all letters, telegrams, affidavits, evidence, correspondence and other documents, dated during the past eighteen months, concerning the dismissal of the former postmaster at Falher, Alberta.



PUBLIC HEALTH


Mr. H. J. PLAXTON (Trinity) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, in the interests of public health there should be established a ministry of sports.
He said: Mr. Speaker, since giving notice of this resolution I have revised my opinion as to its wording, to the extent that if the resolution were to propose that the control of athletics and of physical training in this country be a branch only of, say, the Department of Pensions and National Health,

"f my general purposes would be served. I am mot seeking an amendment to the resolution as it now stands, however, for the reason that Rich an amendment would not alter or affect the general purport of my remarks.
For reasons which I shall submit, Mr. Speaker, I consider that the time is ripe for this government to consider the advisability of assuming control of athletics and physical and recreational training in this country on a national basis consistent with the constitutional authority therefor, and otherwise to cooperate with the provincial governments in a like scheme. Obviously the matter of a nation's health is of the greatest importance, and this question has commanded the attention of some of the leading countries in Europe and Asia. In France there is actually a ministry of sports. In Czechoslovakia there is a highly organized branch of the government which for some years past has been devoted to a national scheme of physical training, and I assume it is more than general knowledge that similar systems are in force in Germany, Russia and Japan. What is more significant still, however, and what I think will be of greater interest to the members of this house, is the fact that in the speech from the throne at the recent opening of the British house this very subject was given special prominence. I happened to be present at debates in both houses when the matter was debated extensively, or, if I may so describe it, when the nation's ill health was discussed at some length. Logically enough, the subject was closely identified with athletics and physical training in all its branches.
I mention this because it is my considered opinion that Great Britain and the other European countries which I have just named are keeping pace with the fast changing conditions in the world's economic and social life by adopting legislation such as is proposed by this resolution. Further, it is my opinion that it is high time for this government to consider the adoption of some national scheme of physical training for the people of this country.
Let us examine our local situation as it exists in Canada to-day. It is true that as Canadians we are a people who have been reared with an athletic background. Two of our Canadian games-I refer to hockey and lacrosse-are now international in their scope and are played in most of the leading countries of Europe. That this is so to my mind indicates two things. One is the active world interest that is now displayed in physical training; the second is the sporting atmosphere in which we Canadians have been

Public Health-Mr. Plaxton
reared. I mention that for this reason, that any scheme which contemplates the improvement of the health of the people of this country on a national basis necessarily must be associated with athletics in all its branches, and to that extent, consistent again with the constitutional authority that may exist, we must assume control of athletics in this country.
This brings me to a consideration of our local problem with regard to amateur sports. In Canada to-day the control of amateur sports has been appropriated by groups or associations, self-constituted in their authority, which generally speaking owe allegiance to no one, and which within the confines of their particular sports are virtually dictators, even as to the locality in which the sports may be carried on. The result, I submit, is chaotic if we are to look for any attempt on the part of those associations to cooperate not only between themselves but with the public and the governments of this country. Likewise it may be said of amateurism that several of the prominent gate-producing games-that is, games which the public pay money to see- have developed into something of a racket as far as the contestants and the managements are concerned. I must add, however, that the situation in this regard is not too alarming, and that it could be cleaned up by legislation such as is proposed by this resolution. But I must reaffirm this statement, that any scheme for improving the health of the people on a national basis, involving physical and recreational training, necessarily involves a control of athletics. I can qualify that statement by saying I would not contemplate the exercise of such control with respect to particular sports except in so far as it may be deemed necessary to the furtherance of the general scheme.
There is one phase of amateurism with regard to which I must make some comment. I refer to Olympic games and other international contests. One has only to recall the lamentable showing of our Olympic representatives at the games last year, and particularly the fiasco involving our hockey team, with all the well deserved, well merited unfavourable criticism that the games inspired, to realize the force of my remarks. Consider the methods by which the contestants were chosen, the sectionalism displayed in that connection, the action of those in charge both in Canada and abroad, the almost total failure of our representatives to win anything, and finally, the crowning blow, the losing of our hockey title-and all this, mind you, at a considerable cost to the taxpayers
31111-8i
of this country. Need I say more, sir, to convince hon. members of this house that the time is long past when any athlete or group of athletes who presume to represent Canada in Canada's name should be permitted to do so in any international contest without proper supervision and control by someone responsible to this government.
In opposition to this proposal someone may bring up that old catch word "regimentation." In that connection I may say that in our provincial system of education one finds the perfect example of regimentation. The cry may be raised: "Do not regiment the young people of this country into a measure of physical fitness." Well, I submit that argument is untenable and inconsistent, and I will leave it at that. Others may advance as an argument the catch word "cannon fodder." They seem to feel that there is in this proposal a sinister attempt to establish a scheme to permit peace time military training of the young men of this country. My answer to that is that if the question of the defence of this country should ever arise, it would be preferable to have an army in the highest state of physical fitness rather than one of which the reverse is true. Likewise, is it reasonable to say that because we are training the young men of this country to a high standard of physical fitness they are necessarily being trained for war or will necessarily go to war?
Finally the problem boils down to one of the nation's health. I do not intend to burden the house with facts and figures in that connection. Some people may say, we are a healthy race; why worry? Perhaps that is so. but let me point to a startling discovery which the British authorities made in recent months. I find in a long editorial which I clipped from the London Times of November 12 last dealing with the nation's physique a few statements which I think will be of interest to the house. The opening paragraph reads:
The policy of improving the nation's physique, as foreshadowed in the king's speech, seems to have captured the popular imagination to a remarkable degree. Both houses of parliament have made it one of the main features of the first debates of the new session, and many authoritative correspondents in these columns have made constructive suggestions for perfecting a project of which they all approve.
Then further down:
The second fact brought out in debates and in correspondence is the existence of a general agreement that the present standard of the national physique is far from satisfactory.



T'I6 COMMONS

[Stage Direction]
Public Health-Mr. Graydon
And a third statement is:
In the case of the city slum some fifty years of partisan pondering failed to effect the cure which five years of united national effort is now certain to provide. In the case of the body slum it is natural that success should come more slowly; but it will come beyond a doubt if it is fostered by the same spirit.
Yes, we might be shocked if we saw a true picture of this country's condition as far as health is concerned. One need only look at the hundreds of hospitals and sanatoria full to the roof to make us apprehensive of the true condition. Then we must also realize that thousands of our fellow Canadians during the last six or seven years have been obliged to live on relief and in idleness. That situation to my own personal knowledge, particularly in urban centres, has induced considerable ill health amongst those unfortunates.
In the final analysis however the situation can be summed up by stating that whatever the present conditions may be in regard to the health of the nation, they can be improved vastly by the adoption of a national scheme of physical training, rather than continuing the haphazard state of things which now prevails.
I have not attempted to exhaust this subject. The resolution in its present form is perhaps not a practicable one, but I hope I have dealt with the matter at sufficient length to commend its general principle to the earnest and serious consideration of the house.
Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):: Mr. Speaker, I desire in joining in the debate on this resolution first to comment on the qualifications, which I think must be obvious to all in the house, of the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plaxton) to deal with matters of sport. They are well known to all who come from that section of Ontario, or for that matter, anywhere in the Dominion of Canada.
I congratulate the proposer of this resolution not only upon having brought to the attention of the house the matter of public health and sport, but also upon the experience .and knowledge which he has with relation thereto.
As the hon. member who proposed the resolution so aptly said, two of the great international sports with which Canada is particularly identified are hockey and lacrosse. Xacrosse, we all know, has been regarded for many years as Canada's national game. When William Perkins Bull, K.C., the historian of the county of Peel, wrote a year or more ago a delightful volume entitled Prom Rattlesnake Hunt to Hockey, he referred to the town of Brampton, the county town of Peel,

as the cradle and nursery of that great game. It is therefore with particular pleasure that I take part in this debate. In addition I might point out that the county of Peel has the same name as the great Cumberland huntsman John Peel, whose name is familiar in poetry and song.
In the year 1914 the lacrosse club of Brampton took a forward step in going to Vancouver to challenge and do battle with the Vancouver lacrosse team for the championship of the world. Defeated by a narrow margin then, they challenged again in 1930 and defeated the New Westminster club, winning the highest honours in the world of lacrosse. Since that time of course a change has occurred in that great game; instead of having a twelve-man game we now have box lacrosse. That perhaps is not nationally so well known, but in my county night after night throughout the spring, summer and fall, large numbers of Peel people are not only spectators of the game but actually participate in it. Many in the house will recall the great battles which have taken place in the past between the Brampton Excelsiors and teams from Orangeville, Weston, St. Catharines and towns in the vicinity of Toronto and elsewhere. These are things which come back to the memories of many hon. members, and bring to our attention the importance of this sport in our national life. I would also be remiss if, bearing the name of Graydon, I did not make some mention of the old Toronto Tecumsehs, who' in years gone by, with the Nationals of Montreal and the Torontos, staged so many great battles for the lacrosse crown of that time.
In considering the many types of physical training and the advancements which have been made in methods of fostering the health of our citizens, we should not forget to mention the great work being done throughout the dominion by the Young Men's Christian Association. That organization is doing an effective job in promoting better health and providing facilities for exercise and recreation for our young people. I think the government should encourage such organizations.
The service clubs are not far behind in the promotion of good health. In our own town of Brampton the Lions Club has done splendid work in a centre where there has always been much activity in connection with sports. This summer they were able to finance a swimming pool which will be constructed in the Swinburne memorial park.
The hon. member for Trinity has referred to the importance of the health of our people and I suggest to the Minister of Pensions and

Public Health-Mr. Mclvor
National Health (.Mr. Power) that the matter of medical examination is also very important. As was stated in the debate last night, a number of insurance companies are already conducting intensive surveys among their policyholders in this connection. I would not be living to-day were it not for the fact that when I was much younger I had a medical examination which revealed a weakness which after some time was successfully corrected. For that reason, among others, I have a special interest in this matter. The hon. member for Trinity has suggested the systematic training of our people, but I would consider it no less important that we should have as well a proper inventory of our resources of physical health.
If the Minister of Pensions and National Health will give careful and studied attention to the matter which has been brought up this afternoon I feel sure that more of our people will be given the opportunity and encouragement to play at healthful sport from time to time. I can speak from personal experience of the need of such a move, because I am one of those who do not take sufficient exercise. To-day we do not seem to have the time to exercise. There is the keen competition in business and the fact that we use our cars so much. Some will almost use a car to go from Wellington street to the Peace Tower. Such practices are devastating to our individual constitutions and have an adverse effect upon our national life. In certain centres of this dominion we find many thousands of people watching no more than twenty men put on a performance in one of our national games. That would not be so bad if we could or would walk to see the games, but sometimes we simply sit in our living room and listen to the radio and get no exercise at all. These are things that should be brought to the attention of the people of Canada, because they have a very important bearing upon our national wellbeing. As the hon. member for Trinity has said, we are a hardy people and with our healthful climate there is no reason why we should not hold a very high place in every sport that is played.
I am glad to note that the hon. member has not carried out his original proposal that a ministry of sports should be established. I do not think the present position of the taxpayers of Canada would permit that move being taken at this time. I think the hon. member's motion has been worth while even if it does nothing more than draw the attention of the government and the people of Canada to a very important matter with
respect to our national health. If the very impressionable Minister of Pensions and National Health is able to work out something whereby he can provide additional facilities and encouragement along this line, we shall' at least have made an auspicious start in a. work which I believe to be most important to the people of Canada.


Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):: Mr. Speaker, I take part in this debate because I am still a youth. I have played at most of the games that are played in Canada, and I have received great benefits from such participation. I congratulate the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plaxton) upon bringing this matter before parliament. Anything that concerns the use of leisure time is of great importance to our citizens. We have an eight hour day in organized labour and I expect that that will soon be cut down to a six hour or perhaps a four hour day. We are then faced with the question of whether this leisure time will be spent in places of a questionable nature or out in the open air.
I should like to quote a great athlete of days long gone by. St. Paul said that it is absolutely necessary for us to keep our bodies in shape. Many of our youths are taking part in athletics. I should like to give an instance of some junior hockey players in that noted centre of sport, Fort William. Two players, Bill Grant and "Fire" Parsons were coming home from a hockey game. They were on their way to have lunch when they found a pocket-book containing $81 in cash, some cheques and other things. Instead of going to have their lunch these two young men walked to the other end of the city to give the owner back his money. That sort of thing on the part of our youth is nothing less than heroism. Many of our boys get their names into the papers for other reasons, but when they show themselves to be absolutely honest it gives great promise and hope for the future of our youth. I happen to be the chaplain of that team and I am happy to be able to report that there is not a smoker on the team.
The benefits which come from outdoor sports are quite evident. Last year when I urged the leader of the government (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) to assist us in having a little recreation, both of these old time athletes stated their willingness to do the best they could. I feel sure that the mover of this resolution is going to have splendid support. We must remember that those who.
Public Health-Mr. Church

take part in games learn to keep their tempers; they learn to have definite aims, and they learn to come back when they are beaten.
I think the resolution in its present form is well worthy of consideration. Our athletes should be placed in a position where those of them who are not able to buy a hockey stick or a pair of skates should be assisted and encouraged. Many of us are limited in our means but our country is not limited, and I believe that one of the outstanding arguments in favour of this motion is the necessity. now that we have so much leisure on our hands, of training our youth in sports and physical exercise, and as well our middle-aged and some of our older people who need to work off fat into bone and muscle and brain energy.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Broadview):: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plaxton) has brought up this question. He has not brought it up in exactly the way he first proposed, and as was announced in the sporting press of the country. His first proposal was that we should have an athletic commission with jurisdiction over amateur and professional sport all over Canada. That was announced in the press, and it was not favoured by the sporting editors of the country inasmuch as this parliament would have no jurisdiction, property and civil rights being a matter for the provinces.
The hon. member for Trinity is an active sportsman. He was a member of the Varsity hockey team that went out to Vancouver and brought back the Allan cup in 192/ and was a splendid type of sportsman. When he came to me and talked this matter over early last session, because I had a motion before the house with respect to national health and physical welfare, I told him that I would gladly give way to him because I knew he was a sportsman. But he did not have the right idea about this question at that time. We talked the matter over and he told me that he would bring it up in a bill last session. It was not on the present lines and had no relation to health.
Last year I drew to the attention of the house the friction over sending Olympic teams to the old country, which was causing a great deal of international discord. At that time a big row was in progress over sending our hockey team from Moncton over to the Olympic games. It was a very fine team, and because I considered that the maritimes got a very raw deal from the hockey authori-

ties I brought the matter before the house. Let me give the house a few of the headlines that appeared in the press at that time:
British and U.S. officials engage in heated argument-Olympic committee finally lifts ban on Canadian players on English team at request of Canada. Dominion and old country will meet to-morrow.
This is another heading:
C.A.H.A. president, E. A. Gilroy, charges overseas hockey is "racket"-Dissension revolving around the eligibility of two English hockey players is renewed with mounting bitterness, and four European teams are ready to protest England's victories because of Foster and Archer. Second gold medal to Germany.
Again:
Canada ready quit Olympic hockey games. Claim play-off system will put team at disadvantage. New bombshell hits tournament.
Maple leaf squad will withdraw unless rule is rescinded.
These are all headlines on dispatches from the front. This is another one:
Olympic boys very peeved. Hand out blasts against officials in charge of team.
Such were the dispatches that came from the Olympic hockey games last year, and undoubtedly it caused a great deal of friction in the old country and in the British Empire.
As I said, the hon. member for Trinity wanted, first of all, to have an athletic commission with jurisdiction over amateur and professional sport all over Canada, but that would not have been within the jurisdiction of this parliament. I urged upon this house last year that it would be far better to stay out of the Olympic games because there was nothing but rows before our teams went over, rows when they got over there, and rows when they returned. It caused a great deal of international bitterness, and it would have been far better for us to eliminate the Olympics and stick to the British Empire games. There is, in my opinion, very little sport for sport's sake in the Olympic games.
I had a resolution on the order paper of March 31 of 1936 reading as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, a select or other committee of the house should be appointed to consider and report on making recreation and sport a national branch of government. and of the state under the Minister of Health, to not only promote national health and the physical welfare of the people, but also with a view to the upbuilding of a more healthy race, to aid them to better meet the many social changes of the age, and to promote good citizenship, in conjunction with provincial and municipal authority.
Subsequently, after the hon. member for Trinity came to me and talked the matter over, I told him that it would be all right with me for him to take over this matter

Public Health-Mr. Church
and bring it before the house. As far as the resolution now before the house goes, it refers, and quite properly, to health, and in that connection I wish to quote from two eminent authorities. Lord Dawson of Penn recently warned the students of Guy's Hospital Medical School of our progress towards national suicide. He said:
The problem of rearing a fit race transcends in importance all other domestic questions. By the improvement of medical knowledge and by the quickening of the public conscience, we have cut down the death-rate and thereby-enabled to survive many unfit people whom in the old days nature eliminated. This bad stock is a dead-weight on the nation. These people are passengers in the national omnibus, and if they propagate, which they do not hesitate to do, the damage they inflict is carried on to future generations. No policy which aims at raising the national physique can succeed if it does not take cognizance of these biological facts.
Our piecemeal social policy has no coherent purpose, and is too much shaped by expediency. There is not behind it the study of scientific law and biological facts on which alone the health of a people can be founded. Palling death-rates are only matters for congratulation in proportion as they denote the preservation of people healthy enough to enjoy life and effective enough to be sound workers and sound players.
That was from the king's physician. This is what Lord Horder, one of the most eminent physicians in the world, says as to the necessity of health:
A national stock-taking shows some unpalatable facts. In this country, one in 120 persons is feeble-minded, one in 200 is insane, one in 10 is too dull or too sickly to be absorbed into industry. The expense of educating and caring for these inefficients is enormous, but more serious is the fact that the future stock is being recruited from them.
The writer of the article from which I am quoting goes on to say in the English Review, December, 1936:
We were warned also in 1934 by Sir George Newman, then Chief Medical Officer to the Board of Education, who wrote in his annual report on the health of the school-child: "The exceptional saving of infant life since 1910 has added to the population thousands of young children who under different circumstances would not have survived. If we are saving as many physically and mentally enfeebled children, it is obvious that we must anticipate a heavy burden of defective children in the schools at five years of age. . . . When we come to observe 100 children of the age of twelve years in an average elementary school, we shall find that 75 per cent of them reveal more or less serious defects."
The writer of the article goes on to say:
These terrible words, coming from men who command the greatest respect and authority, must force us, unless we are consciously and deliberately bent on national decay, to revise not merely our ideas about the so-called social services but the very foundations of our morality.
These are the opinions of two of the most eminent medical men in the world.
While I shall speak for only five or six minutes longer, I want to take time to pay tribute to our Minister of National Health (Mr. Power). He is an old sportsman; he commanded a Toronto company at the front, and he is respected in that city by the rank and file of soldiers and sportsmen. He is also an old hockey player. Like the hon. member for Trinity, I have every confidence that the minister will take up this matter of public importance and others which deserve careful consideration by this house.
Anglo-Saxons are a sporting race. As has been said, on the green fields of Eton Waterloo was won; and the first duty of a government is to look after the health, peace, prosperity and welfare of its people. In the motherland, Mr. Speaker, they take part in sport the way you used to do. One might say that everybody there is a sportsman. The men, women and children of England have been bom and bred in a love of outdoor life, though it may be only walking, or cross country riding, or some similar exercise. They are not content to be mere spectators. The whole British Empire has followed their example, with the result that it has commanded the admiration and respect of the world. To-day England is recovering because of the health of her people, fostered by their love of sport; she is leading the world in many ways, such as in balanced budgets, in tariffs, in recreational schemes, in reconstruction, and to promote recovery, she has also a housing policy, which, as the Minister of National Health mentioned last night, is a most important matter, related to public health.
A country does not belong solely to those who live in it to-day; it is an inheritance from the past; it is a possession for the present, and a trust for the future. As far as our country is concerned I would pay tribute to the Ontario high school, public school and separate school coaching teachers in sport who are taking care of the children after hours, doing volunteer work to develop the physique of our future citizens. I was sorry to see cadet training abolished, because it had a great influence on public health; it led to respect for authority, discipline and manliness; it was, as I see it, not a military organization, but a means of physical development. Many of our people are beneficiaries of that system; it has the support of reliable medical authority, and it has done good work in Ontario.
Public Health-Mr. Church

When I was on the board of education there was a considerable need of public playgrounds in Toronto. We got an intercollegiate union formed of the public schools and the high schools. When I became controller there was hardly a civic playground in Toronto except Moss Park and the Osier playground. We took over those two playgrounds and we made the work part of the parks department. The public parks then were run largely on the principle of "keep off the grass" and that sort of thing; thousands of dollars were spent, and nobody could play in some of the parks. That system was changed. The greatest asset of such a department, as I see it, is the recreational feature, not only for the sake of the school children but also for use for playing games after working hours, in connection with daylight saving, in industrial districts.
This is a work in which the press could help if it would, but of late years three-fourths of the space in the newspapers has been devoted to professional sport. After all, the amateur plays the game for the love of it, to win it if he can in a fair way before the eyes of all men. I am not opposed to professional sport if it is well conducted. I believe that it is the duty of this parliament- because there is concurrent jurisdiction between the dominion and the provinces in connection with education, health and many other matters-to do something, through the Minister of National Health, along the lines of this resolution. The late Doctor Hastings, a great medical officer who became known over the whole of North America through his battle for public health, was very strongly of that opinion. I hope that before long the federal Minister of National Health will put into effect a policy of making grants for this purpose. I would not give these grants to the provinces, because they would put it into their pockets for provincial purposes. These grants should be paid to the boards of education, the high school, separate school and public school boards and municipalities of the country, through a federal commission or subcommittee appointed by the minister, with the object of developing the physical condition of the youth of the land by direct federal aid. Military training is practically abolished, even from our city schools in Toronto. We have a great many doctors on the Toronto board of education. Some are distinguished medical men and dentists, but others are rather like honorary colonels; they are doctors of all kinds, doctors of theology, music, law and pedagogy; in fact anybody who is a trustee and cannot call himself a doctor had

better qualify by the next meeting. However, we have a most progressive board of education of good men in Toronto, one second to none in the dominion. They give a great deal of time voluntarily to their work, but I may add that while I did not agree with their action in abolishing the cadet training, they are doing the finest work in education.
I have said that the press in the sporting pages could help, but for the last few years it has paid very little attention to amateur sport. You do not see much about university and high school participation in sports, but you can read pages of stuff about " pro " sport in its various forms. I am not opposed to professional sport when properly conducted; the public believe in it, and it has come to be a necessity. But I do contend that we should have a national policy of recreation and games, not only in respect of playgrounds, as I have indicated, but also to promote a national parks system that will develop our outdoor life as the British people are doing in the British isles. The government owns large tracts of land. It has practically no federal park in Ontario, which can be linked up to Trent lake, Simcoe, Georgian bay, Muskoka and right to the Lake of Bays and Algonquin park. The dominion owns a great deal of land, and a fine people's playground for the province could be created; it would benefit the hospitals and help develop the youth of the land. A similar scheme could be adopted in all the other provinces.
In conclusion, as regards these Olympic games, I am not in favour of any more grants to them, for I think they do more harm than good. There are too many governing bodies in sport, and too many concerned with it who are not connected with any club at all. Olympic games are held each five years; then they subside, and you hear nothing about them until another comes along.
Where is our national game, lacrosse, to-day? It can revive itself; it does not need any reviving. It is a sport that used to be followed in the schools, and is yet played in Toronto.
With regard to cricket, a great deal of good was done by the visit to the old country of the Canadian team, and the credit is due to a former member of this house. The game of cricket is one of the few remaining games which at this time has not been professionalized.
I suggest that a committee of the house might collect information along public health lines, and might consult with boards of education, boards of health and other provincial

Public Health-Mr. Church
bodies in an effort to find out what should be done. There can be no doubt that in the years to come the physical development of our youth will be one of our most important problems. That point is brought out by Lord Dawson of Penn and Lord Horder.
A few days ago I was reading an article written by a German, educationist. I believe the gentleman in question has written a book which is available in the library, English Review, December, 1986, new book review. In his observations he referred to the decadence of the British race. He says that one Englishman is an idiot, two are a football game and three are the British Empire. Another German author has said that where there is one Englishman, there is the British Empire. We have to take our hats off to old John Bull, and must respect the way he plays the game. We know he plays it for the love of it, and before the eyes of all men.
When I was a member of the board of health for the city of Toronto, Doctor Hastings came into the life of our city, and it was at that time we made our playgrounds the finest on the continent. We know that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and especially is that true among the youth of our land.
The youth of Canada are a credit to the country, notwithstanding the depression and the hard times through which the fathers who are sending them to school have had to pass. Many of those fathers have had to sacrifice some of the necessities of life in order to be able to send their children to school. The parents of the children in our schools are among the finest sportsmen in the dominion, and I hope the time is not far distant when Canada may have a proper national health department,-not a skeleton department locked up in a cupboard like Old Mother Hubbard's. I am not for one moment reflecting on the splendid deputy and' assisting officers in the minister's department. I have known them all my life and have reason to believe that they are able physicians and educated men who stand most high in ability in their profession. Nevertheless I should like to see these officers supported in a national department which would be a real department of health and which would consider different methods of bringing about better health among our people. We realize that this is one of the most important problems we have to face as a people.
I suggest the minister might well consider the matter which has been placed before him by the hon. member for Trinity. A committee could be appointed to go into the matter of national public health, and should
be instructed to develop a proper public health department. We know this work has been left on the shoulders of the municipalities. The city of Toronto has developed a great department which has cost the taxpayers a large sum of money, but the results have been excellent. When the department was originated we had none of the modern means of preserving public health, such as those to which the minister referred last night. Milk has to be inspected, and special precautions are necessary in connection with food and other matters. Although the officers who preceded Doctor Hastings were all most excellent men, with the help they got, yet it was Doctor Hastings who developed the modern health department of Toronto and expanded it. As the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) said last night, much of the health research work is now done by the universities, private philanthropists and municipalities. But the municipalities will have to place the burden on real estate, and real estate can stand the burden no longer.
Life is not worth living unless there is health. No matter how much money a person has, he is poor unless he has health. To-day the government is spending $2,000,000 on the health of animals, but only $500,000 on the health in Canada of ten million individuals. I say the municipality must be relieved of some of the real estate burdens. If we are to develop the hardy race to which reference was made by the two gentlemen to whom I have referred, we must have help from parliament given to the municipalities in connection with public health.
Last night we heard a good speech from the hon. member for Renfrew South (Mr. McCann), and with his observations I fully agree. Out of all the moneys that are being collected through taxation, do hon. members know how much the city of Toronto will receive? Well, from the main estimates we are to have $17,000 to be spent on the eastern gap, and a few extra dollars for revolving doors and other repairs on the post office, or a total of $20,000. That is what the city of Toronto, in which there are Liberals as well as Conservatives, is to receive, and the federal government get $90,000,000 in revenue from that city.
In Toronto we maintain a first class life saving station, and at times we have to send our crews as far as Georgian bay and other outlaying sections, all at the expense of the Toronto taxpayer. In the time of Doctor Hastings we were able to make progress in

Public Health-Mr. Douglas
health measures because there was a city income tax, as an exclusive field from 1867 to the municipalities. Then the dominion authorities came into the field. Public health costs money, and I say the municipalities and real estate cannot carry the burden any longer. Boards of education cannot do it. We must have some support from the federal department of health.
The minister, I believe, would do well if he could see his way clear to read into the resolution what was suggested last March in something I had placed on the order paper. I believe a committee of this house or of both houses should consider the matter of national public health in all its phases, as it has been done in England. Many of our families have been seriously injured by the depression, and because of it some are on relief. Despite their difficulties, however, we must admire the way our industrial workers have carried on in sending their children to the high schools of Toronto. I believe parliament would be doing them a good turn if it were to appoint such a committee as I suggested last March.


Mr. T. C. DOUGLAS (Weyburn):: Mr. Speaker, I shall require only a few moments to place before the house the views of the group to which I belong. First of all I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plaxton) upon bringing this matter to the attention of parliament. It is an old saying that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playgrounds of England. It is true that many of the battles of life are won on our playgrounds.
I am intensely interested in sport, and I should like hon. members to understand that anything I may say is not said because of a lack of appreciation of sport but rather because of a recognition of the part sport, in conjunction with other factors, must play in the building of our national life. First of all may I say I am glad the mover changed the motion so as not to ask for a ministry of sport. In the amended motion he asks only that the Department of Pensions and National Health shall incorporate the ideas he has put forth into its work of enhancing the health of our people.
There are two points I suggest we ought to bear in mind: First, to a great extent the matter of health and the development of sport and recreation is in the provincial field, and the physical training mentioned by the mover is carried on chiefly by the provincial education and health departments. Further, to a great extent sport is supervised by provincial

athletic organizations. To set up now a national body that would tend to overlap would be simply to infringe upon another field. Of course the Department of National Defence sets aside a certain amount of money for cadet training. If the government would consider the feasibility of spending that money for the development of athletic clubs I for one believe it would go further in promoting the general health of our people than it goes as we are now spending it. I do not think a sports ministry, or even to have the Department of Pensions and National Health handle a national program, would be feasible. I believe the question of sports is largely a provincial matter, and one that should be handled by the provincial departments of education and health.
I do think there may be a place for a commission on cultural development, which might seek to promulgate national drama, national musical festivals and some type of national recreation. But when we come to consider the feasibility of spending a sum of money on a sports ministry, or even a sub-department of sports under the minister of health, it seems to me there are one or two other things that should be considered also, not because sport is less important but because there are some other things that are far more important. I grant you, Mr. Speaker, that sport and recreation do make for healthy bodies, but there are other things that are more important than recreation. Some of them are preventive dentistry; the proper care of children, particularly infants, and a proper program of mental and physical hygiene. At the present time in Canada we have an alarmingly high rate of mental and social disease. We have an alarmingly high infant mortality rate and very high maternity death rate. We lag far behind New Zealand, Australia and the Scandinavian countries in combating these things. Granting that some part of this situation is due to the fact that we are such an isolated people and that we are not as accessible to doctors and hospitals as are the people in more congested countries, the fact remains that it is futile for us to talk about setting up a sports ministry when at the present time we are unable to provide medical service for large sections of our people, and while we are unable to give proper maternity care or proper pre-natal and postnatal care to thousands of children born in this country. In the province of Saskatchewan a survey was made of several municipalities, in which it was found that thirty-eight per cent of the children in the rural schools had permanent teeth in a state of decay. Last night it was said that this is a task belonging

Public Health-Mr. Pelletier
to the provincial governments. I would agree with the last speaker, who said that the provincial governments and the municipalities can no longer carry that load.
This is what it means: At the present time our health program is very spasmodic. Here you have two municipalities side by side. Through no fault of the residents of those municipalities the financial situation of both is very different. In one municipality they are in a position to take care of the children in their rural schools who need1 dental care or who require their tonsils removed; that work is done for a lump sum. That has been done in a number of well fixed municipalities in Saskatchewan. But in other municipalities whose credit is not so good and where the tax collections have been low, that cannot be done. If we have any money to spend for a sports ministry; if we have any money to spend in looking after the health of the people of Canada, let us spend it in setting up dental clinics, baby clinics and maternity clinics to look after the health of our people.
In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I should like to say that any money so spent would be the best investment this parliament ever made. Preventive medicine in any form is not a wasteful extravagance; it is an investment, and a good one. A few years ago it was my privilege to present a brief concerning certain areas in Saskatchewan and to make a study of subnormal families. Without wearying the house let me give just one instance dealing with twelve subnormal families living in one particular locality which, within one generation, produced over two hundred offspring, 178 of whom are still living. Thirty-six per cent of them never reached grade six in school. Thirty-eight per cent suffered from social disease and forty-six per cent live either in penal or in mental institutions. Where formerly there were twelve families living on public charity to-day forty-eight families are living on public charity. The cost of supporting these people has increased fourfold in twenty-five years to say nothing of the moral and physical effect on the remainder of the community as a result of social disease, which they spread very largely.
Any money that may be spent in meeting a problem such as this will be money well invested. In the province of Ontario we have a splendid example of what happens when you have proper medical care applied to children. The Dionne quintuplets have become the wards of the Ontario government'-I assume in view of the fact that the premier of this province has no issue of his own. The care given them has resulted, despite the initial
handicaps, in the raising of five healthy and pretty children. That same care is the birthright of every child born in the Dominion of Canada, whether it be born in a rich home or in a shack on the prairies.
While we in this group therefore are much in favour of recreation and sport in any shape or form, the position we take is that any money this government can afford to spend ought to be spent in looking after our people and in the promotion of preventive medicine.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Mr. Speaker, I desire to take part in this debate for two reasons. At the outset may I say that I have listened very carefully to the argument advanced by the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas), which caused me to look at the resolution once more. I find that the resolution suggests that in the interests of public health a ministry of sports should be established.
I do not believe it is the intention of the mover of this resolution to minimize the value of public health in Canada. Rather by this resolution he attempts to say that, through sports, at least a part of the problem of our national health may be solved. The resolution does not preclude any other attempts being made, through preventive medicine, dental clinics and so on, to meet other branches of the same problem. This is simply advanced as one way to deal with one part of the question. However, I desire to associate myself with the mover of this resolution, because I believe in it in principle. I cannot say that I agree that a ministry of sports should be set up, but I believe the problem is of national importance and for that reason I associate myself with the principle of the resolution.
A second reason why I speak to this motion is that whenever competitive sport is mentioned we naturally think of champions, and, speaking of champions, I come from a province which has produced the greatest champions Canada has ever had, namely the Edmonton Grads. That team needs no introduction in Canada. They are an organization of young ladies known in connection with basketball the world over. Ever since they first won the world's basketball championship they have retained it throughout the years and met all comers, teams from Canada, the United States and Europe, and carried Canada's name to glory wherever they have been. I mention this example because I believe that no debate on sports in this house would be complete without some mention being made of that team. If we inquire into the reasons for their success we shall find that
Public Health-Mr. Power

it is largely due to the systematic methods adopted by their coach. Ever since Percy Page took charge he has been able to turn out champions and keep them champions, something that has never happened before in Canadian sports history. If Canada should decide to supervise in somewhat the same manner but perhaps on a larger and more extensive scale the activities of various sporting organizations, I am sure she would have reason to be proud of the champions she could turn out.
In conclusion may I state once more the views of our group. In principle we agree that there should be some supervision over Canadian sports. We also agree with the hon. member for Weyburn when he says that there are many other improvements to be effected in Canada before making such an attempt as this. The resolution is simply one means of promoting public health and does not preclude any other endeavour of that sort which might be made.


Mr. F. E. LENNARD (Wentworth):: Perhaps I may be permitted, Mr. Speaker, to say a very few words. Representing as I do the county of Wentworth and part of the city of Hamilton, and coming from a district which has always been held- in rather high regard in the realm of amateur sport in this country, regardless of the fact that the Hamilton Tigers went down to defeat this fall before the Ottawa Rough Riders, and our Dundas Intermediates were defeated by the hon. member for Lambton West's Intermediates-coming as I say from that district I feel bound to express my appreciation of what amateur sport has done and is doing for the youth of this country. I know of no better influence for good in any community than clean, well regulated amateur sport. I am pleased to support more or less the views of the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plax-ton). I could not have supported a ministry of sports, but I do congratulate him upon bringing this matter before the house, and I feel it should have the sympathetic consideration of all hon. members.


Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health):: I desire to thank the mover of the resolution (Mr. Plaxton) for having brought this very important matter to the attention of the people of Canada. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that sport, not so much on account of the physical development which results from it as on account of the spirit and mentality which it develops, is of much value to the people of Canada. I am somewhat at a loss, however, to know just- what is meant by the
lMr. Pelletier.]
terms of the resolution. If the hon. gentleman means physical culture in schools, if he means that we should establish a ministry or commission of sports such as they have in Europe, whereby the children are taught physical culture-and perhaps he will not take it amiss if I say are trained to become cannon fodder-then I do not think he is speaking the mind of the people of this country. If on the other hand he means by sports what I shall describe as competitive field sports, such as hockey, football, lacrosse and so on. then I doubt very much whether any nation reared and strengthened on individual effort as Canada has been from the time of our pioneer forefathers, requires any governmental or governing body to teach the youth of this country whether they should or should not play hockey, football or lacrosse.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


Charles Gavan Power: As far as I am concerned I believe the hon. member has served a very useful purpose in bringing this matter to the attention of the house and the public. Owing to certain unfortunate occurrences at the last Olympic games an agitation arose to the effect that there should be in Canada some body to decide who should be an amateur and who should be a professional. In my youth, long before I knew anything about this house, I took part in the sports of the day, and in those days there was a definition of amateur and professional. In Canada for a certain period of time those who accepted money for their prowess in athletics were permitted to play with and against those who did not so accept money, as is the case in England to-day in cricket. I think any of my hon. friends who turn to the sports pages in the English papers will see that in the county games Mr. Smith is mentioned, and A. B. Jones, which indicates that one is an amateur and the other a professional.


Charles Avery Dunning: On the same team.


Charles Gavan Power: On the same team. They are allowed to play with or against one another. I am not quite so sure of the facts -perhaps my friend the Minister of Finance will correct me-but I think the same system obtains in soccer.


Charles Avery Dunning: In rugby.


Charles Gavan Power: Whether that is a good system or not I am not prepared to say. But I doubt very much whether it would be in the interests of Canada to say there shall be a minister-who after all originally was a politician'-who shall decide whether or not

Public Health-Mr. Wilton
three members of a team from western Canada sending a challenge in football are professionals. As the person upon whom this task would probably fall, I must say that I would very much like somebody else to undertake it.
Perhaps in this country we have neglected the physical side of education, possibly to our detriment. In so far as my knowledge of constitutional history goes, I understand that this matter would not be within the purview of the federal government. At the present time we have such organizations as the boy scouts and the cadet movements which are carrying on work conducive to the better physical development of the youth of our country. As far as field sports are concerned, as I said, I would not want to be the minister connected therewith. I would not want to be the man who had to choose the referees in the play-offs for the Stanley cup games; I would not want to have to judge horse racing or to see that wrestling matches were not framed in advance. I would not want to be obliged to listen to the tales of prowess related after the nineteenth hole in golf. I feel that the time will come, as it has come in other countries, where the appropriate authority-I do not think this would be the federal authority-will see to it that our children are trained in such a way as to make them strong and healthy in future life and a credit to their race and country. We used to call it physical torture when I was a youth.
The hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plax-ton) was kind enough to give me notice of this resolution. I know he spent a great deal of time in preparing his remarks and he even took the trouble to propose a bill. No one in this house has brought more credit to Canada through athletic feats than has the hon. member for Trinity. As a matter of what I would call practical politics or practical administration, I do not think a ministry of sports could be established, whether it were intended for the development of physical culture or for the development of field sports. If my hon. friend will listen to the advice of one who has been somewhat longer in the house than he has, he will withdraw his resolution. He has attained the object which I know he hoped to attain, that of drawing the attention of the people to the fact that the time has come when we must develop our children into healthy men and women.


Mr. H. E. WILTON (Hamilton West):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to add a few words to what has been said already. I am strongly in favour of anything that will
benefit the youth of Canada, representing as I do a city which has produced more amateur champions, both Canadian and world wide, in proportion to its size than any other city in Canada. One of the problems which faces the civic authorities of Hamilton is that of the provision of finances to maintain the public playgrounds. The medical health officer of Hamilton-I believe the same applies to the medical health officers of many other cities-has gone on record as saying that the civic controlled playgrounds are of great advantage in improving the morals and health of the youth of the city. I believe Hamilton was one of the first cities to provide public playgrounds; it led the way in this as it has led the way in many other things. I could give the house a list of thirty or forty outstanding things which have tended to make the world a better place and which had their inception in the city of Hamilton. This city is of so much importance and is so jealously regarded that for some reason it was left out of the official book issued last year by the publicity department at Ottawa and distributed throughout the United States.
Reverting to the matter of playgrounds: a couple of years ago the municipality of Hamilton found itself forced to close some of the playgrounds because of a shortage of funds. It was realized that this would be detrimental to the youth of Hamilton, but it had to be done in the interests of the taxpayers. While I cannot see eye to eye with the mover of the resolution (Mr. Plaxton) when he states that a ministry of sports should be established, I do feel that the government should endeavour to give some financial assistance to municipalities which are conducting public playgrounds. The government would then be doing something which would be greatly in the interests of the health of the youth of Canada.


Mr. VITAL MALLETTE (Jacques-Cartier):: Mr. Speaker, like other members of the house, I am grateful to the hon. member for Trinity (Mr. Plaxton) for introducing this resolution and I feel I would be remiss in my duty to my constituency if I did not make a statement on this occasion.
Every hon. member who has spoken so far has told the house of the number of champions in their respective home towns. We have so many in my county that we take that as a matter of course and keep no record. It is not my intention to spread on the pages of Hansard the names of these ladies and gentlemen who have performed so creditably in the past.

Public Health-Mr. Mallette
In the county of Jacques-Cartier I think we have more golf clubs to the square mile than in any other part of Canada. There is the Royal Montreal Golf Club, the Beacons-field Golf Club, the Marlborough Golf Club, the Beaurepaire Golf Club, the Senneville Golf Club, Elm Ridge Golf Club, Summerlea Golf Club, Grove Hill Golf Club and the Meadowbrook Golf Club, and so on and so forth. If the government were to take over the direction of sports, well, Mr. Speaker, I have enough trouble with patronage as it is without having to put in recommendations for caretakers, for professionals, and perhaps for chamber-maids.
Like the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon), and the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor), when I was young, much younger than now, naturally I used to go in for sports. I was interested in hockey and lacrosse, and when I got older I did what the hon. member for Fort William advised this house to do, I joined a curling club. Not only did I play the game on the ice but I even had something to do with the management of the club, until at last I rose to occupy the very high position of president of the Pointe Claire Curling Club, which is a member of the Canadian branch of the Royal Caledonian Curling Club, an aggregation comprising over 3,300 amateurs in curling in the eastern part of Canada. After a while they elected me president of the Canadian branch of the Royal Caledonian Curling Club. I was informed by the representative of the branch at Montreal that he had written to the secretary of the club in Scotland to tell him that since the foundation of the branch in Montreal in 1852 I was the first French-Canadian to be elected to such high office. This was very satisfactory, but my pride was lowered by the fact that the secretary after five weeks had not answered that communication, and I said that the probable explanation was that he had not yet recovered from the shock.
We have also in Jacques-Cartier race tracks, yacht clubs, boat clubs, canoe clubs, polo clubs, baseball clubs, hockey clubs, in fact, every kind of sport.
I do hope that the government will keep away from sports as much as possible. I know the trouble I would have in my own county well enough not to wish to see members representing other metropolitan counties in similar trouble.
As regards public skating rinks, playgrounds and that kind of thing, in most of the small towns we have them to-day. They are there, and they are provided by the municipal
rMr. Mallette.]
authorities. We did not have such conveniences a generation ago, and where we did have them, it was the boys of those days who had to provide them through their own work and out of their own little savings. But to-day, every time a group wants something it goes to the municipal council, and public moneys must be expended to provide these things. Once you go to the municipal councils, the next move will be to the legislature, and then to the federal government, and if the government undertook to go into this kind of thing we would be asked for grants of all kinds. So I do hope, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for Trinity will withdraw his resolution. I have just one word to say in appreciation of it, and that is, if the government does go in for controlling sports, that they may take steps to control beauty contests in case another one is held on this hill this year.


Hugh John Plaxton: In view, Mr. Speaker, of the suggestion made by the hon. Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Power), with which I agree, I would ask leave to withdraw my motion.
Motion withdrawn.



PURCHASING POWER


Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the Canadian government should consider the advisability of beginning this year to issue purchasing power, and to use that purchasing power for the improvement of the economic condition of the Canadian people.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, before proceeding
to discuss this very vital question I should like to read to the house an excerpt from the introduction to Professor Irving Fisher's book 100% Money, written by Robert H. Hemphill, former credit manager for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta. In this introduction, among other things he says:
If your personal difficulty and that of all the people you know or know of is lack of money, is it not obvious that the central national difficulty is but the aggregate of, the difficulties of all its citizens, that the scarcity of money is our paramount national problem.
Perhaps I should say something about that before going into my discussion, inasmuch as I know that there are a good many people in this dominion who are trying to draw the attention of the people of Canada from this

Purchasing Power-Mr. Blackmore
question of money, and who are saying there never was more money in the dominion than there is to-day. I grant that fully; but that money is to-day in the hands of men who propose to keep it, and so the ordinary people of Canada are unable to get at it by any means at their command.
In the first place, Mr. Speaker, I should like to define for the house the term purchasing power. There are two kinds of money. Perhaps a good many people have not come to realize this. There is first what may be called pocket-book money, which consists of coins and bills which you can get hold of-tangible money. This is created generally by governments and by certain banks. Then there is what is known as cheque-book money, or what we might call such. This money is bank credit, and it is created by certain banks. It is really figures in a book. It is utterly intangible, but it is as good as gold, that is, it performs all the functions of any kind of money that can be conceived of, even if that money were pure gold itself. And it is made by the flourish of a fountain pen. I know there will be some who will hasten to challenge that statement, but before they rush in where wiser men may fear to tread may I suggest that they read with considerable care H. D. Macleod's book, Elements of Banking, and especially read page 157. This will show quite clearly that as long ago as 1885 it was fully recognized that there were two distinct kinds of money, that the bankers' cheque-book money is created by the flourish of a fountain pen and is destroyed by the same process; and therein lies a tremendous percentage of the trouble that is to-day afflicting the world. There may be those who will smile at this now, but within twenty years everyone in this dominion who knows anything will recognize it fully and will realize that it is a primary condition to which we should be giving our attention, and for this reason if for no other, that from ninety-five to ninety-seven percent of all the business done in the world to-day, and especially in the Anglo-Saxon world, is done, not with money which you can hold in your hand, but with money represented by figures in a book, transferable by cheque, existing only on the books of the bank. This resolution calls for figures-in-a-book money, for credit, for cheque-book money. A certain amount of pocket-book money also could be issued.
There will be those who will rise and point with gusto to the German mark and to the greenbacks as examples of the colossal failure of this kind of money. Before we waste any time on this sort of thing, let me warn those people that the kind of money I am advocating
has not been used, so far as I have learned, by any government up to the present time. The money I refer to is this credit money or cheque-book money, and the proposal is that the government of the dominion prepare itself, by establishing the necessary machinery and passing the necessary laws, to issue this kind of money and use it. What might easily cause inflation of the regular pocket-book money might be far from having the same effect with cheque-book money, which is figures in a book. At the same time I cannot see that the issue of a certain additional amount of actual pocket-book money could do any harm.
There are a number of urgent reasons why we should begin to issue such money as this. In the first place we are gravely concerned with the national debt. How Canada's national debt can ever be paid off I think we can safely challenge and defy any man in the dominion to-day to show. That debt is increasing, and if we have another war, or if we have to make elaborate preparations for one, our debt can easily assume overwhelming proportions. At the same time that we are worrying about our debt and the paying off of that debt-which we should be worrying about-there are arising in this country from one end to the other demands that more and more consideration shall be given by the government to supporting, financially, various sections of the population. We are to-day about to consider the question of pensions for the blind. Everyone agrees that that is a right principle. Everyone admits that the blind should be supported to such an extent that they can exist comfortably. How much of a burden that will impose upon the dominion government perhaps we should all hesitate to compute. At the same time we are beginning to feel that those who have fought life's battles and who have attained the age of fifty-five or sixty should be allowed to retire to a well-earned rest; and in our economic and industrial conditions to-day the employers are rapidly getting to the point where they force men to take a rest. There are certain industries which have no use for men over forty or forty-five years of age, especially if they are seeking employment for the first time. The problem is not an imaginary one; it is real, and it must be dealt with. How are we going to find the money for the support of such people? As sure as we are in this house, the demand for such support is going to increase.
Besides, as was brought out last night, we must face increasing demands for the support of our burnt-out soldiers; and everyone in
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Purchasing Power-Mr. Blackmore
this dominion who has a heart realizes that that demand ought to be met, so that the men who fought the battles of this country in the last terrible conflict shall not be obliged to walk down the street as the most shabbily dressed and the most hopeless people in the community. We are being called on constantly, as we have had indicated here to-day, for grants of various kinds. For example, who is there who will argue to-day that the state ought not to consider seriously the question of state medicine and state dental care and state hospitalization? Everyone feels that these things ought to become a reality. Where is the money to come from? And, there are great public works which should be attended to. Our hills are becoming denuded of the virgin forests upon which we depended for the water supply to fill our lakes and supply our rivers. In Alberta this year, and in the west generally, when the drought was upon us, many and many a community was very much at a loss to know what to do to assure itself of a water supply, and that largely because the timber had been removed from the hills which should have been a natural reservoir supplying the streams to give water to those communities. That condition is getting worse. It has been mentioned several times in this parliament.
There should be a reforestation program in this country, but where is the money coming from? Then, everyone realizes that our parks need more and more attention. There is the matter of relief for the unemployed. As far as I can see, this demand will be persistent and perpetual as long as we continue as a nation. Also there is relief for the underpaid. There are some men and some newspapers in this land who sneer because, they say, certain people are receiving more while on relief than they could get if they were working, with the result that some are leaving their work and going on relief. Can you blame them? I do not know of any community in this nation that is giving men more by way of relief than they feel they ought to have; and I maintain that if there are any industries in this country that are giving their employees less than they ought to have, it is a reflection upon this parliament. The indications are that before long something must be done either to force those industries to pay men a living wage or to aid them in supplementing the wages which the men are receiving. How we are to avoid such alarming labour disturbances as are taking place in the United States unless something like that is introduced, I will challenge any man in this dominion to show.

Further than that, the taxation burden, as has already been mentioned several times, has risen to a point at which it can no longer be borne. Something must be done, yet our need for money is more urgent than ever. Can anyone see a way out of that difficulty? There is also the national debt, of which we have been speaking. Some day we must pay that off; we should be starting now. Could we not use the national purchasing power, if we can learn how to use it, so that repayment will not cause any disastrous results? Can we not use it in purchasing the gold which we are producing in this country, the nickel we are producing, and a great number of other commodities, and, with them, help to pay off the national debt? We must find some way of paying it off. How can we do it under the present system?
There is another matter which to my mind is important. Men who are studying these subjects carefully are beginning to learn a great deal about the relation between money in circulation in a country and the income which the people in that country can earn. Robert H. Hemphill, whom I quoted a while ago, has made this statement, that it has been discovered in the United States that for every three dollars which the people of the United States earn as wages, salaries or dividends, there absolutely must be in circulation in that country one dollar. This thing is receiving a scientific approach; men are learning that certain monetary laws must be regarded. If at the present time we cannot devise a method of getting money into circulation by means which we have thus far used, then unquestionably we must find some other way of getting that money into circulation. There is simply no use in our closing our eyes to that fact.
Then, in addition there is the matter of increasing our production. Production increases according to the amount of money we have in circulation. That is a fact which some people may not realize, but one which is nevertheless true. At the present time banks cannot give enough money to increase production as we would have it increased.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Would the hon. member
permit a question?


John Horne Blackmore: Yes, provided it is
not taken off my forty minutes.


Norman McLeod Rogers: I should like to understand clearly whether the hon. member recognizes a distinct connection between production and purchasing power.


John Horne Blackmore: Yes.

Purchasing Power-Mr. Blackmore


Norman McLeod Rogers: Then would he kindly explain that connection?


John Horne Blackmore: I wonder if the minister would mind raising the question a little later in my speech, if I do not deal with it by that time.


Norman McLeod Rogers: Certainly.


John Horne Blackmore: I am pleased the
minister has asked the question. I wish to deal with it, because there is no doubt that those factors are vitally bound up. In order to increase production of a hundred acres of wheat or a hundred sheep under present circumstances a man must be in a position to borrow money, unless he happens to have it in his own account. If he has it, then when he invests the money in the sheep he looks upon that money as a debt which, together with interest, must be paid back to him, so that it may pay him to invest money in the sheep rather than put the sum into the bank. If he cannot get the money and the interest back, he will not invest the money. So in a very real way it might be said that every dollar we are using to-day goes out into circulation as a debt.
There will be those who may challenge my statement, and when they do I shall be pleased to answer them, because I have plenty of authority with which to meet the challenge. Our money is all debt. As one notable authority I quote Robert H. Hemphill, a man who I presume ought to know a good deal about these things, as he holds the position of manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta. These are his words as they appear in a foreword to Irving Fisher's book 100% Money:
If all bank loans were paid no one would have a bank deposit,-
In the press of Canada and in after-dinner speeches we hear a great deal about deposits. May I say the people of our country must learn much more about the nature of deposits. I repeat the quotation:
If all bank loans were paid no one would have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of currency or coin in circulation.
This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent monetary system. When one gets a complete grasp upon this picture, the tragic absurdity of our helpless position is almost incredible. But there it is.
Why cannot the banks issue enough money? Simply because the banker cannot issue money unless he has a borrower; of the borrowers presenting themselves to banks for loans only 31111-9
a few can be trusted by the banker, and most of those whom the banker can trust will not trust themselves. The result is that they do not borrow. There is enough evidence to prove that beyond the shadow of a doubt.
There will be those who will say there is more money on deposit in the banks to-day than there was in 1929. Yes, that is true; but what is that money on deposit? The money on deposit is largely loans which the bankers have advanced to governments. That is an important point to remember. The money in question is not therefore out in circulation as we might be led to believe; it is already tied up.
More and more of bank loans are being advanced to governments and consequently are not in circulation. This is a very serious matter. Then, money must be in circulation to decrease unemployment. If money is not in circulation, men are not able to get it and are therefore unable to buy the goods industry produces. As a result, industries are not in a position to run full time; consequently they are unable to employ men full time. If we are to get employment for our people we must find some way of getting them back to work, and we cannot get them back to work until we can create payment for our goods.
It is said that we will do that through international trade.	Perhaps-but the best
thinkers I find have not much faith in international trade as a solution for all our problems. The cause of the depression is financial, although many people will doubt that statement. I repeat that beyond all question the cause of the depression is financial, and money must be put into circulation to bring us out of it. If we had some means of producing national money we could increase our defence without inflicting undue burden upon Canada. This country can produce practically everything necessary to equip itself with almost any degree of defence it may wish. Why can we not produce the goods and equip ourselves for defence measures?
Then, there is a still more serious matter to consider-and again there will be hon. members in the house who will challenge what I am about to say. I am positive, so far as I have been able to get information, that there is no successful answer to the statement that the government of Canada and of virtually every modern country is controlled by financial institutions. Consequently democracy is passing away. Yesterday the right hon. the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) talked about the way in which democracy has failed. I believe I have indicated

130	COMMONS
Purchasing Poioer-Mr. Blackmore
one good and sufficient reason why it is failing, and unless we can change tihis matter of the control of money I say democracy will continue to fail. There is a reason why Germany has gone fascist; there is a reason why Italy has done likewise; there is a reason why Russia has gone communist.
Then, having established the need for such money, if we can find a way in which to get it, the next question is this:	Is such money
feasible? Is it practicable to have national money, and particularly national credit? There are three main questions which arise in discussing this matter. First, could Canada have the power to create national money? I believe we need not discuss that question, but we shall at a later time glance at it from two or three aspects. Second, should national money be sound money? The expression "sound money" has gone back and forth from one end of this country to the other, and we are led to ask ourselves:	What is sound
money?


An hon. MEMBER:: Alberta money.


John Horne Blackmore: Somebody is waking
up. What should be sound money? Should national money be sound? I shall not have time to discuss these questions at sufficient length, but in them I say there is a tremendous amount about which most people have not yet even begun to think. The next question is this:	Would it cause inflation? During the remainder of the time at my disposal I should Like to discuss these three aspects of the matters relating to national money. Can Canada constitutionally create it; should such money be sound money, and would it cause inflation?
In the first place, has Canada the necessary power? Yes, she has. The British North America Act guarantees such power to Canada. If I am correctly informed, acts of 1914 and of 1923 passed in this house specifically gave the government power and authority to create money, a power which for some strange reason has not been exercised, so far as our records show. It has not been exercised fully, we will say. It appears now that the power to create our national money is being manipulated away from us. I should be very glad to be convinced that that is not so. And it is charged that this is being achieved, this manipulation, through our bank acts, through the Bank of Canada Act and through the power and influence of international finance working through the press of this land.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps I can say immediately that that statement is utterly and completely without foundation. I do not

understand that my hon. friend is taking responsibility for it; he is merely quoting what someone said somewhere, and it is quite completely without foundation.


John Horne Blackmore: Very good. The minister will remember that I said it was charged, and we will deal with the matter more as the days go by, because the evidence we have will take a whole lot of explaining away.


Charles Avery Dunning: Present it.


John Horne Blackmore: It is not time yet.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: Do not make
your charges, then.


John Horne Blackmore: I did not make the charge; I said it was charged. I will leave the statement just as I made it.
Now I go on. The next point is: Is national money sound? First, why not? What is the backing which stands behind any bank money if it is not the guarantee of the Dominion of Canada, and if the credit of the dominion is sufficient backing for bank money why should it not be sufficient backing for dominion money if that money is correctly managed? Let us use a simple illustration. If you, any one of you, were put in charge of the economic affairs of an island as large and as rich as Ontario, could you have any money in your island? This brings up the question that was raised by my hon. friend a moment ago. If the island teemed with fruit, with metals and with all manner of desirable things which men use both directly and to create the things they need, again I ask:	Could you have money whether or
not you had gold?


Norman McLeod Rogers: Will my hon. friend permit me to interrupt once more? Suppose the island teemed with purchasing power as he has described it, and there was no production, would conditions be satisfactory in that island?


John Horne Blackmore: Not by any means, but we will answer that question further as we go forward.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


John Horne Blackmore: The laugh will be on the other side of the faces before long, too. All right; think of an island like Ontario, filled with natural riches. Could that island have money? If the government of the island created money, what would be the backing of that money? For those who are so exceedingly smart over there let me suggest that they go and get Sir Norman

Purchasing Power-Mr. Blackmore
Angell's series of articles which appeared in the Financial Post last year. Read them through with a great deal of care; turn to page 19 and read this little illustration, and see what you get out of it. I am going to retell it now. He says a sailor landed on a certain island with a block of gold. He wanted to use the gold in order to buy certain goods for his own use, but at the time he did not see how he could use the gold. So he went to a missionary and confided the gold to his keeping, saying, "As soon as you get a chance, take my gold to the old country and have it minted. Meanwhile I will write orders against it." So the sailor wrote orders and passed them to the natives in return for the goods which the natives gave him. In due time the natives were passing a great quantity of these orders around the island, and accepting them as face value as money. But, Sir Norman Angell says, the gold never did go to the old country; it never was minted into coin, but the system continued to function just the same, and the gold might just as well have been a piece of lead. When hon. gentlemen opposite get through explaining that it will be plenty of time to sneer. Until they can explain it, however, they would be wise not to reveal their ignorance; until they can explain that away it might be just as well to keep right on studying.
Now, the question is, what was the backing of the money when it was in circulation in the island?


Mr. LAWSON:: The intrinsic value of the gold block.


John Horne Blackmore: But the block was never minted.


James Earl Lawson: It did not have to be minted to have intrinsic value.


John Horne Blackmore: Remember, this is all on page 19 of Sir Norman Angell's article. Go and read the pamphlet.


James Earl Lawson: But I have read it, and I am trying to get my hon. friend to explain to my satisfaction that there is no intrinsic value behind this credit which he is going to set up.


John Horne Blackmore: Very good, but you will find that the backing of that money was the goods and services, the producing and consuming power of that island, the exchanges, as Sir Norman Angell says. It will take a good deal of laughing to explain that away.


Charles Avery Dunning: Sir Norman Angell did not say that.


James Earl Lawson: Nor anything like it.


John Horne Blackmore: Get the pamphlet; read page 19, and we will see. At any rate, this is an illustration.
What is the backing of money? That is the question. The backing of money is the goods and services, the producing and consuming power of a country; in other words, the need of the country for the money. What do authorities say about it? In 1936 Senator Owen wrote an article which completely supports that stand; in 1936 Reginald Mac-Kenna made a statement completely supporting that stand, as far as I can see. On January 30, 1936, he is credited with having uttered these words:
Additional currency, however, can now be furnished by the authorities, if they choose to exercise their powers, without reference to the central bank's holdings of gold. Thus the nineteenth century, which brought into general use a means of payment hitherto scarcely known outside London-
He is referring there to the power of creating credit and transferring it by cheque. -brought also the machinery whereby it could be subjected to intelligent control.
In his 100% Money, Irving Fisher supports the same idea time and again. Then G. D. H. Cole, eminent Oxford economist, has; written the following words in his Principles of Economic Planning, at page 213:
Whenever the need arises to increase the supply of money, I am suggesting that the increase ought to be made, not in the form of increased loan credits to either producers or consumers, but of non-repayable presents of purchasing power to all the citizens, save to the extent to which the state decides to use the money itself for public purposes.
And at page 217 we find these words:
It does seem to me undeniable that the state, by creating new money without thereby creating new debt, can come near to bringing about the full use of the available productive resources, and can, by recurrent infusions of additional money, keep those resources in use.
Those who talk about the dangers of inflation must remember that they are challenging the words of a man who stands very high in the economic life of Great Britain. Here is another quotation, from page 208:
Let the state, it is urged, create more purchasing power, and more production will speedily follow.
This will answer the question proposed by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers). Again:
I do not dispute this. I agree that, if the state makes a present of new money to consumers-not a credit advance, repayable later on, but a present-the effect will be to stimulate additional production.
132	COMMONS
Purchasing Poiver-Mr. Blackmore
There are many more statements that I could read. The question is, What is the backing of money? There are books written to show that the gold standard has broken down, that the backing of money is no longer gold, and the wisest men know it is not. Nor is the backing any other metal. It is the goods and services, and the producing and consuming power of the community, and the credit and confidence the people have-


Charles Avery Dunning: Confidence, that is it. All the rest can be left out.


John Horne Blackmore: Quite so. Now the
question is, How are you going to produce that confidence?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is it.


John Horne Blackmore: What Angell calls exchanges. May I read a passage from Senator Owen?


Malcolm McLean: Who is he?


John Horne Blackmore: He is the chairman of the monetary reform committee of the United States. I am sorry the hon. member does not know. He says:
There is no mystery in what makes the value of money,


Malcolm McLean: These are nearly all foreign authorities. The hon. member passes over those of his own province.


John Horne Blackmore: If you would leave the province alone it might do better. The value of money depends absolutely upon the supply of money in relation to the demand for money, entirely regardless of the value of gold content.


Norman McLeod Rogers: What creates the demand for money ?


John Horne Blackmore: The desire of the people to produce, motivated by their desire to consume, operating through effective demand.
Then the next point, Would such money cause inflation? First, what is inflation? We say ordinarily that inflation means a fall in the purchasing power of a dollar or rise in the price of commodities in terms of that dollar. You will all agree with that, I think. But another definition of inflation we cannot allow. It is the definition which has been used by a great many propagandists throughout the country, who contend that any kind of money created by anybody but a banker is inflation. This is an absolute lie.

The next question is, What is the cause of inflation? The main cause of inflation is having too much money in circulation actually among the people for the goods and services that are available. That is the test. More money gradually introduced into circulation will cause more production, as was brought out a few minutes ago in Senator Owen's article, giving more backing for more money Our ability to produce goods and services is almost unlimited. Of that there is no question, otherwise why all the unemployment and all the half-time work? What do the authorities say about this matter? Let me read a passage from Paul Einzig's book World Finance Since 1914, published in 1935, page 17:
The more advanced definitions-
That is of inflation.
-duly allow for any change in the volume of real wealth. Thus if the volume of currency and credit increases, and the production of real wealth increases in the same proportion, then there is no reason why the expansion of currency and credit should produce an inflationary effect, even if it affects the spending power of the community. It is only if the increase of currency and credit is in excess of the additional production of real wealth that it is defined as being of inflationary character.
That, I think admits of no successful contradiction.
The next question is, What about our present system? Our present system is the system that causes inflation, and the people who cause the inflation are the very ones who are everlastingly telling us that the government issue of money would cause inflation. You will find that in the platforms of both the Democratic and Republican parties in the United States, and the same thing applies to us, that it is the indefensible expansion and contraction of credit that causes the trouble. Anyone who wants a good discussion of this should read Irving Fisher's 100% Money, after which I will talk with him privately. For the United States Professor Fisher uses these figures, and I think corresponding figures can be found for Canada. In the United States in 1926 there were four billions of pocketbook money in circulation, and twenty-two billions of cheque book money. Between 1926 and 1929 the amount of pocketbook money remained the same, but the cheque book money increased from twenty-two to twenty-three billions, and Professor Fisher says definitely that that increase of one billion of cheque book money caused the inflation and the subsequent collapse which resulted in this disastrous depression. In 1933 there were five billions of pocketbook money,

Purchasing Power-Mr. Deachman
because President Hoover, in an attempt to change the situation had introduced one billion more, but there were only fifteen billions of cheque book money. And that is what caused the depression and is continuing it.
Now may I read a passage which is rather enlightening, from Professor Fisher's book "100% Money", page 6 of his summary:
An essential part of this depression has been the shrinkage from the 23 to the 15 billions in cheque book money, that is, the wiping-out of 8 billions of dollars of the nation's chief circulating medium which we all need as a common highway for business.
This loss, or destruction, of 8 billions of cheque book money has been realized by few and seldom mentioned.


Walter Edward Foster: Order. The hon. member's time is up.
Mr. BLACIvMORE:	I think I have four
minutes more, owing to the interruptions, have I not? May I have another minute to make up for the interruptions?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Go on.
Mr. BLACIvMORE:	It continues.
There would have been big newspaper headlines if 8 thousand miles out of 23 thousand miles of railway had been destroyed. Yet such a disaster would have been a small one compared with the destruction of 8 billions out of 23 billions of our main monetary highway. That destruction of 8 billion dollars of what the public counted on as their money was the chief sinister fact in the depression from which followed the two chief tragedies, unemployment and bankruptcies.
If that writer knows what he is talking about can there be any question as to the cause of the depression?
In closing I submit that inasmuch as the present system presents to us only despair and failure, inasmuch as there is grave need of new money without debt and without taxation, inasmuch as the thoughts of a great many progressive men are leading them to the conclusion that national money is the way out, inasmuch as national money is sound and constitutional and safe, or could be, and could be and should be abundant, inasmuch as the national credit has never been tried and consequently no one knows whether it would cause inflation or not, and inasmuch as national credit ought to work, for 97 per cent of business is now done on credit, I urge the government to consider very seriously the matter of the creation of new purchasing power.


Mr. R. J. DEACHMAN (Huron North):: Speaking in the house a few days ago the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) made an appeal to the members for sympathy in regard to conditions existing in western Canada. I am quite sure that appeal will be met almost without being made. We in the House of Commons to-day owe a great debt to the people of western Canada. I would point out that at the present moment there are five political groups in this house. Every one of the leaders of these distinct groups represents a constituency in western Canada. In addition to that we have three provincial ex-premiers. Surely, as far as western Canada is concerned we have sufficient leading in the dominion at the present time. What we need, in order to accomplish the desired end, is just a little more light. I appeal to the hon. gentleman who has just spoken, and to his friends, to give us a clearer explanation of what they really intend to do. I listened to my hon. friend this afternoon as closely as I could. He told) us of the things that ought to be done, but he did not utter a single word of detail.
He asks for an increase of purchasing power. Purchasing power is something which must be created, not given, if a nation is going to prosper. My hon. friend talks about an island. I do not like his island, it is too large. It is almost as large as the province of Ontario and it does not suit my purpose at the moment. Will hon. members permit me to take them to another island, a nice productive island, large enough to accommodate every hon. member in the house and perhaps some of those who assist us in the work we do here? This is a fertile island and all that is required to bring forth fruit is labour. I ask my hon. friend a question, the answer to which can come during the session from him or from some other member of his group: What will be the purchasing power of my hon. friend when he is settled upon that island? What will be his purchasing power at the end of his first year upon the island? I tell the house what I think his answer will be. His purchasing power will be measured exactly by his production.
Every hon. member on that island will bring to the market place the products which he has produced. His capacity to buy or to purchase the goods which others have produced will be determined by the volume and value of the products which he brings to the market place. In time a price system will evolve which will establish the relative price relationships between different products. Not everyone will produce grain or fruit. Perhaps some will make speeches. Some will be civil servants and perhaps we may have a governor on that island. It may be desirable to have some music. I would be willing to make a contribution in order that

Purchasing Power-Mr. Deachman______
the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) might be present. I submit that the purchasing power of that island will depend upon production and there is no other way in which you can increase it.
Then the hon. member for Lethbridge comes upon the scene and says, "We ought to increase the purchasing power." How can you do it? You can do it only by taking from some who have produced and giving it to others. There may be some increase in consuming power through exchange with the other islands which surround you, but the ultimate standard of living on that island will depend upon the productive power of the island and upon the exchanges which take place with the other surrounding islands. I ask my hon. friend to think over this matter very carefully.
I ask my hon. friend and his friends to change, in their imaginations, this island into the province of Alberta. Exactly the same conditions prevail. Will it make any difference how often you change your government in the province of Alberta? Will it help you if you bring out money with stamps on the back of it? Will it help you if you put in a double or triple system of currency? Is there any means by which your consumptive power can be increased except by production, plus favourable exchange? I think my hon. friends ought to give an answer to that question. If they do not give an answer, then I think they ought to try to present to us what they deem to be an answer.^ We should be given an opportunity to examine it.
I read the platform of the Aberhart party -I cannot call it the social credit party because it certainly is not that-in the papers a few days ago. Its planks have been brought up again by the hon. member for Lethbridge. What does he say? He says that we should have an issue of debt free money. I should like to know what constitutes debt free money. If I am a farmer in Alberta and want to borrow $500 with which to purchase twenty steers at $25 each in order that I may feed them on my land, can I, under the system proposed by my hon. friend, go to the government and ask for $500? When that is done, can I say to myself that I hold in my hand $500 which I have received from the Alberta government and which will purchase for me twenty steers? Can I say that I have no obligation to pay that back and that I have no obligation to pay interest upon it? If that be true, the government of Alberta could give me the twenty steers. It could give me machinery and equipment to any amount, and there
(Mr. Deachman.]
would be no interest to pay. Houdini on the stage took rabbits out of his hat'-Houdini could not make his living by selling the rabbits. Yet that is the proposal made by my hon. friend.
I do not want to continue the argument to any great length, but I warn my hon. friend that I shall stay here as long as he and Mr. Aberhart survive. I only want him and those who support him to tell us how they will increase purchasing power. I want to know what he will do about debt free money. I want to know how long he will continue to issue debt free money. I want him to face the simplest of simple problems. If that could be done in Alberta, would it follow that the government of that province could buy control of the Royalite oil wells by the use of debt free money? I want to know if they could buy control of Noranda mines. I want to know if they could buy up the obligations of another province and live upon the interest. Is there any limitation to this scheme which they propose? Can it be continued indefinitely, or is it to be limited to just such things as we witnessed last summer when for a brief time they issued a few dollars of script money. The only thing they got out of it was a headache, plus the price they received1 for a few souvenirs that were sold. It is not a difficult question that I ask. I simply ask that these gentlemen tell us how it can be done. You cannot prove it by citing the most learned authority, by quoting Norman Angell or anyone else. You must put this system to the test, and unless that can be done it is useless. They have been trying to do it for a long time in Alberta, but so far they have not succeeded. If my hon. friend were given that marvellous gift which he says the bankers hold, would he stop at the paltry $18,000,000 which the banks of Canada earned last year? Any organization with such limitless possibilities for creating wealth could make the Count of Monte Cristo look like a piker? The government of Alberta has been trying these things and all they have left at the present time is the little sheet of paper which I hold in my hand- the outline of things they propose to do in the future. What do we ask for? We ask for a simple plan and a simple statement of fact. You cannot in this world get something for nothing without taking that something away from somebody else-if you can will you tell us how it is to be done.


Mr. WILLIAM HAYHURST (Vegre-ville):: Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to support this resolution of my leader (Mr. Blackmore). The interest which the dis-

Purchasing Power-Mr. Hayhurst
cussion has provoked in this house is an indication of the very deep concern taken in this vital question all over this dominion. The people of this country at least are recognizing that something must be done to alleviate conditions as they have developed in Canada and other countries.
Our good friend from Huron North (Mr. Deachman) says that you cannot get something for nothing, but surely he does not mean that. Why, some of the best things in life are something for nothing. The rain that falls upon our land, the sunshine that ripens the crop these are something for nothing, and they are vital to production. We in this part of the house hope in our time to disprove some of the fallacies which have been enunciated by the hon. member for Huron North. It is singular that he should still preach the doctrine that production must accompany purchasing power. If he had farmed in western Canada, as most of us here have done, where we produce large quantities of wheat and other cereals, potatoes and other products, he would know that the man who grows a ton of potatoes does not produce the money that will purchase them. We produce goods in enormous quantities, and usually at a loss. If I may be pardoned for making a personal reference, last fall I shipped ten head of pure bred shorthorn cattle, weighing on the average 200 pounds each, and all they brought in the Edmonton market was S6 each, or $3 a hundred pounds. Will anyone in this house say that a man can produce beef at that rate? Beef is one of the real assets of this country, and we cannot continue to produce at that rate when we have no control whatsoever of the value of money. The yield does not furnish the proper equivalent for me to buy my requirements in clothing and food, and that is due to the tremendous cost of production of that real wealth.
The hon. member for Huron North mentioned that wonderful island of his.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, your island.


William Hayhurst: I will give you the story of another island, where this question of money was considered, and I am going to quote an authority. Mr. A. DeV. Leigh, who is secretary of the London Chamber of Commerce. He has written the story of an island, and I am going to quote it because it illustrates some of the ideas that have been expressed by the hon. member for Huron North:
It is said that on a certain coast long ago shark's teeth were used for money. These answered the purpose all right and the industries of this primitive people were carried on very well with this currency. For years the country was prosperous, but storms ravished a nearby coast along which they had caught their supply of sharks. The storms destroyed the sharks and for a number of years no more could be procured. Money grew scarce in the island; industry languished, and the people became reduced to penury, all because of the scarcity of shark's teeth.
Then sharks became available once more, shark's teeth became plentiful, and the people had money. They went to work again, industry recovered, and the inhabitants of the island regained their former state of comfort. This situation recurred several times in the course of a long period of years, the plight of the people becoming worse each time of scarcity, yet no remedy was found.
A visitor to these shores during one of those seasons of depression was astounded at what he saw-people starving in a land where food was plentiful, for want of shark's teeth. He pointed out to them how ludicrous their attitude was in the eyes of a stranger, and they came to see that another standard than shark's teeth could be used without destroying any of the wealth of the country. At last they understood that the material of which money was made mattered little and that another medium than shark's teeth could be used and the integrity of the money would remain; that it was the relation of their medium of exchange to production which really mattered. Money is for the purpose of exchanging goods so its relation to the production of the country should be sound-[DOT]


Charles Avery Dunning: Hear, hear.


William Hayhurst: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) says "hear, hear," to that. It goes on:
-and any other foundation for money is essentially unsound.
I hope that the discussion which this resolution is provoking in the house will be of value to all the members, and I sincerely hope that many members of the cabinet will take part in the discussion.
I think it was the Minister of Labour (Mr. Rogers) who asked the question: What is the relationship between production and purchasing power? That question probably has not yet been answered. The difficulty, as we see it, is that those who are in control of money do not issue money based upon real wealth but issue it upon some mystical standard, whether it is called the gold standard or by some other name, rather than upon the productive capacity of the country.
What we ask in this resolution is that the government should take power to create its own money based upon its own credit. In our judgment there are two great errors in
136	COMMONS
Purchasing Power-Mr. Hayhurst
our existing economic system. First, incomes are inevitably lower than prices. Second, the government taxes us to pay interest on its credit, instead of creating its own capital money and income money. The amount of money that is paid out as income and is available to buy retail goods for consumption, as distinguished from capital money, can only be used through industry producing new goods, and in turn income money is required to buy those products of industry. The amount of income money thus distributed to the community in a given period of normal trade is less than the total sale prices of all the retail goods finished and put on the market in that period. That is one reason why all retail goods cannot be sold and a million and more producers at times are put out of work, and that is the reason why we pass through periods of depression such as we have been passing through in the last few years, and from which, through the manipulation of currency or credit control, we may escape into another period of more or less so-called prosperity. No dealing out of words can supersede realities, nor can it save the unemployed men from feeling the pinch and the degradation. The fact is there, whatever words we may use. The accumulation of capital in the form of reserves of industrial companies cannot be spent on buying consumption goods, so however huge the balance may be there is no solution to the poverty problem until that balance has been spent on incomes.
In time of war it seems that any nation is able to produce all the money it requires to make armaments. Shells are not sold, but destroyed, so that definitely brings us a little boom, because money is put into circulation for goods which are not bought in a retail market. But alas, the government borrows the money instead of creating it, and when this spurt of armament making is over it will have to collect income money in the form of taxes out of our meagre incomes in order to pay the interest on the sinking fund. More will have to be borrowed in order to help us pay our taxes. Again economists will note the inevitable slump and explain it by spots on the sun instead of advising the government to make new money for whatever expenses are necessary.
There should be no need to tax us to final hopeless poverty, if the money is not borrowed from outside the community. The trouble to-day is that we give too much prestige to

our money market, which is a. poor substitute for our great industries. I ask this question: Which is greater, a nation of usurers, money lenders and barterers, or a nation of producers which can provide all its steel and engineering and electrical equipment? I should judge that a nation of producers is more important than a nation of traders or usurers. As I see it, the fact is that to-day we are using a money system which has been outlived; which was perfectly satisfactory, perhaps, for an age of scarcity, but which, through the technological improvements of modern industry, has not kept pace with the times. The technological improvements of to-day have changed our entire outlook on life. This afternoon we listened to some speeches about sports. Shakespeare used these words:
If all the year weTe playing holidays,
To sport would be as tedious as to work.
To-day the engineers of the world have changed our productive capacity to such an extent that leisure and sport and play will become much more prevalent, because the " grinding necessity " of labour is no longer a necessity. In the production of all goods less economic energy is required, but it should be our object not to restrict and destroy goods, but rather to distribute them, for the object of production should be consumption.
How strange that a young country such as Canada should deliberately stop the admission of desirable elements from abroad solely because they cannot present clear and convincing evidence that they have adequate means of supporting themselves for an indefinite period after their arrival. It happens that my constituency is very largely Ukrainian, and in representing them I had the honour last year of going to the immigration department to endeavour to arrange for the admission from the Ukraine of a number of the sons and daughters of families here who had been separated by immigration officials from their relatives. But it was impossible to get any favourable answer, because we could not prove that if these people came to Canada they would be employed or would have enough money to keep them for some indefinite period of time Thus it is that the monetary conceptions of our government and many of our people are placed in the forefront of their thinking and are more important to them than the real asset of the people of this great dominion. What the dominion lacks more than anything else is people; we have tremendous resources and yet we have the

unemployed. People ask:	Where is the
money coming from to put these unemployed to work? We contend that the money should be issued in proportion to the productive capacity of the men; and if, as someone has said, gold has intrinsic value, it and other metals, as well as wheat and other commodities, could be used for the issuance of credit or money.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, January 21, 1937