1936-05-29

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following message:-
Ottawa, May 29, 1936.
Sir,

I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Sir Lyman P. Duff, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber on Tuesday next, second June, at 9 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
F. L. C. Pereira,
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



RAILWAY COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. VIEN presented the first report of the standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 78, to amend The Dominion Elections Act, 1934.
He said: The purpose of this bill is to provide for the taking of votes at dominion byelections. It follows a bill passed previously at this session which postponed the annual revision of the list, and is to meet the representations of certain members of parliament that we were not providing for by-elections. I may add that the bill is in conformity with the recommendations of the special committee of the house. It is to be accompanied by a companion bill amending the Dominion Franchise Act, which must be preceded by a resolution, which resolution also appears on the order paper.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Dominion Franchise Act, 1934, with respect to by-elections and to make provision for the appointment of enumerators and other necessary officers and for the preparation and printing of voters' lists and other necessary documents.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the 'house.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Judges Act to provide salaries for the Ontario appeal and high court judges as presently constituted; and further provide that when a vacancy occurs in the office of chief justice in appeal the office shall be abolished and the court shall thereafter consist of a chief justice and seven other judges.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the

Canadian and British Insurance
subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, May 28, consideration in committee of Bill No. 61, to amend the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932-Mr. Dunning-Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
On section 6-Power to invest in stocks of other insurance companies.
Mr. DUNNING:: When the house rose last night we were discussing section 6 of this bill and I undertook to have the section further reviewed in order to make sure of its true effect. I have done so and am now able to advise the committee that under the section as it at present stands in the law a fire insurance company, having invested more than 15 per cent of its assets in common stocks, could under section 61 as it now stands invest further amounts in the common shares o' another insurance company, even if those shares did not comply as to dividends with subsection 1 of section 60. This, it is believed, was not the original intention and even if it was it should be changed. The amendment will make it clear that the concession made by section 61 will not apply to any company which has already invested more than 15 per cent of its assets in common stocks. I think that answers the question raised by the leader of the opposition last evening in connection with this section.


Mr. BENNETT:: I would hardly agree with the construction placed on the section as it stands, but that is unimportant; I cannot think that that is the meaning of it as it now stands. But why is subsection 2 added, "certain investments excepted"? It will be observed that this is a new section entirely and it provides that investments made after 1927 and before the first day of January of this year, under the provisions of so and so, shall not be deemed to be investments in common stocks within the meaning of subsections 6 and 7 of section 60. That brings it down to the first of this year and to all intents and purposes renders nugatory the provisions of the law in respect of common stocks since 1927 up to date.


Charles Avery Dunning: The intention of subsection 2 is to avoid any interference with investments which have been made under the provisions of the act after 1927 down to date. I am advised they are very small, but in the absence of subsection 2 there would
be very grave question as to how the companies would stand in relation to them.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 7-No power to form other companies.
Charles Avery Dunning: This is purely a clerical correction.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 8-Exemptions.
Charles Avery Dunning: The same remark applies to this section.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 9-Majority to reside in Canada.
Charles Avery Dunning: This applies to fraternal societies the same provisions that now apply to life insurance companies.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 10-Valuation balance sheet to be sent to policyholders.
Charles Avery Dunning: There are two changes, one clerical and one striking out the words "in Canada," so that policyholders outside Canada will receive information in the same manner as those within the country.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We call them policies and policyholders. In some instances fraternal organizations do not speak of policies but refer to them as certificates of membership. The section provides that every fraternal benefit society registered under this act shall, not later than the first day of June in each year, mail to each policyholder, and so on. Would "policyholder" in the definition be broad enough to cover a certificate holder in a fraternal society? My hon. friend might look at that to make sure. I think the definition is broad enough.


Charles Avery Dunning: A policyholder means the legal holder for the time being of a policy in Canada.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is not good enough. What is "policy"?


Charles Avery Dunning: "Policy" means any
written contract of insurance, whether contained in one or more documents, and in the case of insurance in a fraternal benefit society any contract of insurance, whether evidenced by a written document or not, and any certificate of membership relating in any way to insurance, including any annuity.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is good enough.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Canadian and British Insurance
On section 11-Assets, minimum amount of.
Charles Avery Dunning: The change is clerical.
. Section agreed to.
On section 12-To retain assets in Canada.


Charles Avery Dunning: This is clerical.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 13-"Surplus" defined.
Charles Avery Dunning: This is entirely clerical.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 14-Companies other than life.
Charles Avery Dunning: Entirely clerical.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 15-Report to treasury board.
Charles Avery Dunning: Change in one number only.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 16-Penalty for transacting insurance without registration.
Charles Avery Dunning: This section is for the purpose of bringing within the penalty section of the act dominion companies, incorporated for purposes other than the transaction of insurance business, which nevertheless do transact that business. The act heretofore has applied only to companies incorporated for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance, and it was never contemplated that any company not incorporated for that purpose, still less any company prohibited by its letters patent from transacting that business, would ever engage in it. Cases have arisen, however, where this has been done, and it is considered advisable to make such companies subject to the same penalty as now applies to a registered company which violates any provision of the act.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That would not extend, I take it, to commercial corporations that provide benefits for their employees who make contributions to it, supplemented by a contribution from the company. Sometimes they are in the habit of referring to the employees as being insured in the company. Of course a joint stock company cannot lawfully carry on insurance, and if a change were made against them under the provisions of this section with a view of imposing a penalty, they would at once plead that the Joint Stock Companies Act provided that they should not have those powers conferred upon them, and this section would be wholly illusory as far

as the imposition of any penalty is concerned. You can put in the provision if you wish. It cannot have any effect.


Charles Avery Dunning: I think my right hon. friend will remember some cases during the last two or three years where in the absence of penalty provisions they just simply go on and do it anyway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But they cannot write
insurance.


Charles Avery Dunning: They do it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, but it is ultra vires.


Charles Avery Dunning: The question is, what to do to them about it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The answer is, cancel their charters under the Joint Stock Companies Act.


Charles Avery Dunning: This action we are proposing to take to-day will make penalties available for that offence.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Under the law as it stands, the directors would be liable if they are doing business that is ultra vires.


Charles Avery Dunning: The former Secretary
of State is not in the house. I have here a letter from him to the former Minister of Finance in which he makes that very point, that no penalty accrues in such a case.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know there is no penalty.


Charles Avery Dunning: And he suggests in the letter that the proper method of dealing with it would be to create penalties under the insurance act which would apply in such cases. In fact, the whole situation arises out of one particular case-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes.


Charles Avery Dunning: -in western Canada, of which we found duplicates elsewhere, but not on so large a scale. The matter has been under consideration by the department of the Secretary of State from the standpoint of company incorporation and liability of directors, and by the Department of Insurance. The Department of Justice has also gone into the matter. I could read the letter, but I think I have fairly summarized it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think I know in a
general way what it is. Perhaps I have not made my point clear. Obviously a company incorporated under the provisions of the Joint Stock Companies Act of Canada could not transact the business of life insur-

Canadian and British Insurance
ance; that is a prohibited business under the statute. Therefore, if a charge were brought against such a company alleging that it had been transacting life insurance business, the plea would be that it had no such power under its charter. That would be clear. That is the point, T think, that has not been made plain. Here is a recognition of a legal right which they do not possess. That is my point. Look at the section;
Any company, or any other corporation incorporated under the laws of the Dominion of Canada or of the late province of Canada, or any fraternal society so incorporated, which, or any person who, acting on behalf of a company or such a corporation or society, transacts any class of insurance business in respect of which the company or such corporation or society is not registered under this act ...
That is a recognition of its right to do the business, which obviously it has not. It is under the statute a prohibited class of business, yet, being prohibited, we now recognize it for the purpose of punishing it. With all deference I say to the minister that that is a perfectly clear position. Now that the minister has brought it to my attention I do recall something of the matter to which he refers. But I never recognized for a moment the right of that company to carry on an insurance business.


Charles Avery Dunning: We do not admit that we are doing so.
Mr. BENNETT; Quite so, but this says so. You say that any company which does this particular business is going to be punished. You cannot approbate and reprobate at the same time. My contention is that that is a prohibited business for a joint stock company. Being prohibited, obviously we cannot say: If you do the prohibited thing we are going to fine you under the insurance act. If the company goes beyond its charter it runs the risk of losing its charter, because what it does is ultra vires; the directors who transact the business are personally liable, and those who purport to receive the alleged benefits under it in fact receive none, because the business is not within the scope of the corporation. I do not think the section is happily drawn. It should be changed to read that any company "purporting" to transact the business, and so on, and refer it back to the provisions of the statute which makes it prohibited business. There is a general clause in the insurance act providing penalties for doing that which is prohibited by the act.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Well, this is prohibited by the act. The insurance act prohibits this
class of company from doing that business. All joint stock companies are so prohibited. I think we should say "purporting to transact insurance business," rather than recognize that they are doing it. That, I think, is the usual custom in drafting legislation of this kind. In other words they are holding themselves out as entitled to do something which they have no legal right to do.


Charles Avery Dunning: Quite so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We are agreed as to that. But under the law as it stands there is a prohibition against their doing this thing under their charter. Therefore, it strikes me, all we have to do is to insert "purporting" to carry on business which they are not authorized to do; and we are going to punish them in this way rather than the other. That is all.


Charles Avery Dunning: Of course my right hon. friend understands that they are not a company within the definition of this act.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Certainly I do.


Charles Avery Dunning: A corporation, within the definition of this act, means any corporation incorporated for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is my whole point.


Charles Avery Dunning: The point is a legal one, and, again speaking with deference as a layman, when I get a report which has run the gauntlet of the department of the Secretary of State and the lawyers who have to do with company law, who suggest that with regard to this practice it is far better to amend the insurance act than to amend the companies act; when, having got that, the superintendent of insurance takes the matter up with the Department of Justice, and all the lawyers who have anything to do with it there suggest this course, what is a poor lay minister of finance to do?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Do what his advisers tell him.


Charles Avery Dunning: He can do very little else under the circumstances. The advice is legal advice, advice from the Deputy Minister of Justice:
In reply to your letter of the 2nd instant,
I may say that it does not appear that proceedings could be taken successfully under either the Companies Act or the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932, in this case, and it may be somewhat doubtful if the letters patent of the above association could be cancelled if proceedings to that effect were taken.
In view of the above circumstances, it is suggested that section 111 of the Canadian and British Insurance Companies Act, 1932, as enacted by section 32 of chapter 27 of the



Canadian arid British Insurance
statutes of 1934, be amended to cover a company which was not incorporated for the purpose of carrying on the business of insurance, and if this amendment is approved, then it would be probably advisable to also amend section 142, as enacted by chapter 27 of 1934, and section 58 of the Foreign Insurance Companies Act, 1932, as enacted by section 28 or chapter 36 of the statutes of 1934. If you approve of these amendments, I would suggest that they be included in two new bills, and for this purpose, I herewith enclose drafts of such bills.


Richard Bedford Bennett: These are not the sections referred to; they do not cover those two paragraphs.


Charles Avery Dunning: But they do consist of the drafts sent for the purpose, enclosed with the letter I have just read.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They are not so numbered.


Charles Avery Dunning: The numbers have been changed, of course.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But section 3, to which the letter referred, is another section. I still think, notwithstanding the opinion of the Department of Justice, that attention has not been directed to the point I am endeavouring to make. In connection with a companies act you will always find a disposition not to amend it along the lines that have been suggested in that communication, for reasons that are fairly obvious. The Department of State has certain obligations in connection with the granting of letters patent and there is always a desire to avoid as far as possible the determination antecedently of questions such as those now raised. I think in any event a writ of scire facias would cancel such letters patent, though I say that with difiidence because I have not looked it up. On the other hand, as far as this is concerned all the minister has to do is look at it. It reads:
Any company, or any other corporation incorporated under the laws of the Dominion of Canada or of the late province of Canada, or any fraternal society so incorporated, which, or any person who, acting on behalf of a company or such a corporation or society, transacts any class of insurance business in respect of which the company or such corporation or society is not registered-
If you charge them with that before a magistrate they may say, "That is nonsense; we are not doing that at all. We have no power to do it. It is ultra vires of our incorporation, and you cannot punish us for that. That is an imaginary offence."


Charles Avery Dunning: Would it not be a matter of fact?


Richard Bedford Bennett: But the question of fact is this: These people say, "This is not the kind of insurance you are talking about at

all. We have no power to do that, and as we have no power to do it there can be no offence because we are not doing anything we have not power to do." The minister would not need to be a lawyer to raise that defence successfully before a magistrate.


Charles Avery Dunning: But they advertise; they issue policies.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But of what?


Charles Avery Dunning: Insurance.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If the minister says that-


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no doubt about it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But the point is not entirely without authority. There are authorities on questions of ultra vires business. I am not going to do other than have the minister make the explanation and say that he is bound by the opinion of those whose duty it is to advise him, but the records of the courts have shown frequently-


Charles Avery Dunning: One thing that does
astonish me is that this point, if it has any force, escaped the eagle eye of the law officer of the senate. This bill came from the senate, and had a pretty thorough grilling before the senate banking and commerce committee, which includes a great many lawyers, I believe. My right hon. friend will forgive me if I prefer to stay with what I have now in the way of advice, under the circumstances.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I say the minister is
bound to accept that opinion. I also point out to him, however, that ordinarily to pick up this section you would say it was to punish people who tried to carry on the business of insurance when they should not do so. I am only pointing out that if I were acting for the man thus charged I would simply say, "There cannot be any offence, because that is prohibited under our act of incorporation, and we are not doing anything more than we are permitted to do." Under our Companies Act these returns are made every year, and no one is charged with doing business that is ultra vires; but I am not raising the question. It is always well to remember what the minister said the other day, that there is nothing more uncertain than the ultimate determination of litigation. Sometimes it is determined by a point that has been raised without thought as to the effect or seriousness of it. I am not for a moment saying that the point is serious; I am only saying that when I read it I was struck with the thought that it was a situation that was rather anomalous, to charge a man with the commission of an offence when he says, "What I am doing cannot possibly be

Canadian and British Insurance
an offence for it is what I am forbidden to do under the statute, and I have been maintaining my position under the statute." Then you take another statute altogether, not related to the one under which he operates, and say he is carrying on the business of insurance.


Charles Avery Dunning: It would be a pretty
ingenious defence, at any rate, would it not?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I would not say that,
but since the minister is bound to accept the opinion of his law officers, I have nothing further to say on the point.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 17-Reserve liability for determining assets in Canada.
Charles Avery Dunning: There is only a clerical
change here.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 18-Classes of hazards covered by certificate.
Richard Bedford Bennett: When this -bill was before the house some years ago I suggested, and I do so again, that it is very desirable not to risk the whole machinery of the department on the accuracy of referring to a particular section. It is much easier to say "the provisions of this -act" than to name a particular section. Now we have before us sections which have taken up the time of two houses of parliament; which have been printed for the two houses of parliament; which have been repealed and reenacted, and what have we done? We have added three words here and perhaps only two words there. As I said to my colleagues at that time, although the draftsman did not think it desirable to follow my advice, all that it is necessary is to say is "notwithstanding anything contained in this act," and so on. That has been the usual way of drafting these bills. The moment you name a particular section and then amend by striking out a section and renumbering the rest you are up against that condition. I do think it is a waste of very excellent effort to have to check up these matters every session. It imposes too much of a burden upon the department.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is likely also to lead
to very serious complications in practice.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was just what I said a moment ago. The minister will perhaps remember that we were confronted with that situation at one time, as the superintendent of insurance may recall. In the course of an endeavour to number the sections they became confused, and we had a very considerable
12739-205 J
amount of difficulty. It will be remembered that we were charged with grievous offences because we endeavoured to remedy the situation in a particular way.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 19-Additional requirements.
Charles Avery Dunning: I think I should make an explanation here, because this is new. Section 19 makes it possible for the minister to require from provincial companies registered or to be registered under the dominion act an undertaking that they will comply with that section of the act respecting the division of participating profits between policyholders and shareholders. Up to 1932 provincial companies registered under the dominion act were subject to that provision, but since 1932 they have been exempt from it at least in respect of business written since that date. Should the undertaking now provided for be given and then violated the penalty will be the cancellation of the certificate of registration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think that is highly desirable. I do not desire to engage in a discussion of the matter to-day, but the 25 per cent that has to be made available to policyholders in my judgment is entirely too low.


Charles Avery Dunning: Ninety per cent, is it not?


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, I am talking about another matter. Not less than 25 per cent of the profits must be made available for the surplus of the policyholders until such time as that surplus reaches a certain definite point. That was one of the provisions we passed today. If my personal views were to prevail 1 would make it a much larger percentage.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is in the case of fire insurance companies?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am dealing with the sections we have passed to-day.


Charles Avery Dunning: I did not refer to it
because it was merely correcting one of the section numbers.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What it did was to reenact the provision about the twenty-five per cent. The minister will find that:
(2) Subject to the payment of preferential dividends in accordance with subsection four of section ninety-nine of this act, until the surplus of the company shall equal or exceed the said liabilities in respect of all outstanding unmatured policies not reinsured, the company shall at the end of each year appropriate towards the surplus of such company at least twenty-five per centum of the profits of the company for the year last past.
Had I my way I think I would make that percentage larger, but I am quite conscious

Canadian and British Insurance
of the limitation imposed on the utilization of profits, ten per cent only being available for shareholders; that is, the shareholders' profits under the law as it now stands cannot be more than ten per cent of the profits earned. The law also goes further; there is a second branch-twenty-five per cent at least of the earned surplus must be appropriated to the policyholders.


Charles Avery Dunning: That applies to fire insurance companies only.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, that is the complement of the provision with respect to shareholders' profits in life insurance companies. This provision in section 19 I think is not only highly desirable, but absolutely essential if we are to give provincial companies the status they would derive from having a certificate, because it would place other companies at a serious disadvantage if they were to be able to secure the certificate which had involved an attorning to our jurisdiction entirely in the one case and only partially in the other. In fact I thought it was done a year ago but apparently it was not.


Mr. CLARK (York-Sunbury):: Has this
bill any effect on Lloyd's?


Charles Avery Dunning: No, they are not under
this act at all.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Marine) moved the second reading of Bill No. 68, respecting the carriage of goods by water.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Explain.


Mr. HOWE:: The purpose of this bill is to repeal the present Water-Carriage of Goods Act and replace it by a new statute which follows almost exactly the British carriage of goods by water act. The only differences between this and the British act are in such wording in the latter as is not applicable to Canada.
The British act was the outcome of the Brussels conference of 1922 when twenty-four maritime nations met there for the purpose of drafting a uniform carriage of goods by water act. Following this convention, Great Britain passed an act in 1924, and the United States some two months ago also passed an act which was modelled almost entirely on the British act. Canada was not a party to the Brussels convention, but by correspondence with Great Britain and the United

States we have been committed for a year or two to pass legislation making our act uniform with the others.
In addition to the situation as affecting uniformity there are other reasons for passing this bill. The old carriage of goods by water act is rather vague and indefinite and has been the cause of a good deal of litigation, whereas the new act is very clear and definite, and since it has been in force in England the litigation under it has fallen to a minimum.
The necessity for change was made apparent particularly in connection with the decision in the Sarniadoc case, which was carried to the privy council. Since that case was decided shipping interests in Canada have had considerable doubt as to whether it would be possible for them to insure against risks that properly should be insurable. The clause in question is the clause in the old act that makes it a condition that the ship must be seaworthy in every respect.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Section 3 is the only section about which there has been any trouble.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. The present act does not include lumber in the definition of goods, and it has been very difficult for lumber interests, particularly in British Columbia, to obtain marine insurance on lumber shipped to the old country. There was one case in which a ship left British Columbia with a part cargo of lumber and took on additional cargo at Newport News. The lumber was damaged in transit and the American shipper was able to recover the insurance whereas the Canadian shipper was not. This bill corrects that situation and includes lumber in the definition of goods.
The legislation will also relieve the coasting trade by making it possible to avoid making out a bill of lading in all cases. It allows a simpler contract in coastwise shipping. It also relieves the obligation of having to guarantee the weight of bulk cargoes where the weight is determined by a third party.
I think that covers the essential points. Other points will arise in committee, but I may say that we have had representations from almost every unit of the water carriers' interests in Canada and there has been no serious opposition whatever to the bill, although its contents have been known for some time. It seems an obvious piece of legislation and one that is very much required.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.

Carriage of Goods by Water
On section 2-Rules relating to bills of lading.
Mr. STEVENS:: May I ask the minister if any representations have been made by the merchants' exchange or by boards of trade in connection with this bill?


Clarence Decatur Howe: We had a letter from the Vancouver Merchants' Exchange, as I recall, asking for information about it. We sent them a copy of the bill some time ago and have heard nothing further from them, therefore we assume that silence gives consent. Several boards of trade have made representations but I am assured by the officers handling the correspondence that there has been no serious opposition to the bill.


Henry Herbert Stevens: An intimation was conveyed to me a few days ago that representations were desired from Vancouver, and thinking that this bill would come up soon I advised them to send forward promptly any representations they had to make. I notice that this bill got its first reading on the eighteenth of this month, only ten days ago, and that is rather a short time within which to send the legislation out to British Columbia and get it back, after study, with suitable comments. I want the minister to understand I am not raising objections to the bill, but I do feel that I should like to have had this information on hand before the bill was proceeded with further.
There is one other point. About two or three years ago, maybe longer, there was a dispute between the shippers and the carriers of goods. I recall part of the dispute, and it was based upon what is apparently being dealt with here; that is, the wide allowance of immunity that is extended to carriers of goods, and the difficulty of shippers in securing compensation through the courts. That was applicable not only to the carriage of goods by water act of Canada as it then stood, but also to the shipment of goods to the old country in carriers under the Water Carriage of Goods Act of Great Britain, upon which this new bill is modelled. While I am not desirous of hindering the passage of this legislation or of complaining about it, I should like to have had the opportunity of hearing from the Pacific coast and considering and presenting whatever representations they have to make.


Clarence Decatur Howe: I am advised by my officers that yesterday we received representations from the Vancouver Merchants' Exchange with a strong recommendation that lumber should be included. We were able to advise them that lumber was included and hoped that the bill would satisfy them.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That I think would probably cover the situation. I certainly do not wish to interfere with the passing of the bill, but I am most anxious that this important section of the export trade should be adequately covered.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3-Contract not to imply seaworthy ship.
Mr. NEILL:: Would the minister explain this section? Does it mean that there is no obligation upon the carrier to provide a seaworthy boat, and that if the stuff is lost he can say to the shipper, "That is your trouble"? What protection does the shipper have? He has no knowledge of the condition of the ship; he cannot go into that. What is his protection?


Clarence Decatur Howe: If my hon. friend will turn to
paragraph 3 on the opposite page of the bill he will find an explanation of the obligation of the ship owner as to responsibility for the ship. If the accident occurs because of the unseaworthiness of the ship the ship owner is liable, but unseaworthiness cannot be pleaded unless the action arise because of that unseaworthiness.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Chairman, this is the only section upon which I wish to make a few observations. The minister knows that we in Canada have been very reluctant to pass this statute. It lessens very materially the burden of the ship owner. It represents the high point of the influence of shipping in Great Britain. The Brussels conference was the triumph of the great shipping interests over, shall I say, the agitation that commenced in the days of Plimsoll and was maintained with varying degrees of success until this final action was taken. Far be it from me to say it is absolutely unfair because that would not be the proper way in which to describe it. But in two or three particulars it very greatly changes our conception of responsibility on the part of the ship owner.
The minister will recall the circumstances that led to the enactment of the drastic legislation in connection with the seaworthiness of ships, ships in the fall of the year overladen, laden far beyond their proper depth, and going out to sea heavily insured, which finally culminated in that historic scene in the House of Commons when Mr. Plimsoll completely lost his head and was escorted out of the chamber in a desperate physical condition. But the result of the breakdown of Mr. Plimsoll was that Plimsoll's mark appears on every ship that leaves a British port. That of course has only to do with the depth to

Carriage of Goods by Water
which the ship is loaded, and with conditions under which the seamen are provided with food and other necessities while on the articles of the vessel.
Section 3 of this bill says:
There shall not be implied in any contract for the carriage of goods by water to which the rules apply any absolute undertaking by the carrier of the goods to provide a seaworthy ship.
The law as it developed was that in all contracts for carriage there was an implied condition, and that implied condition was the basis upon which, on the one hand, the owners of the cargo relied for assurance of the ship being in a condition of seaworthiness to carry the cargo, and, on the other hand, the crews relied upon it, feeling that there was no risk of life involved so far as the seaworthiness of the vessel was concerned.
The minister has not forgotten the terrible disaster which happened off the United States coast to a southbound British ship or the serious loss of life involved in the disaster to a northbound ship which was destroyed by fire off the coast of New Jersey. The question of liability is always a question of fact, determined as it was in those days by the question of seaworthiness. But now we have the word "absolute" inserted. It still maintains the principle upon which the law was predicated, that is, there is an implied contract of seaworthiness but not of absolute seaworthiness. When the minister said that this lessened litigation, I would say that while it is true it has lessened litigation because the British commercial interests do not have recourse to litigation except where great principles are involved, but rely upon arbitration-the great interests of the city of London determine questions of this kind not by reference to the courts except where great principles are involved, when they have recourse to the House of Lords-yet it has always seemed to me that this is rather a dangerous section, and I shall content myself with making that statement of my position. When you have regard to the enormous amount of traffic that is handled on the inland seas of this country-I do not think it affects so much shipping from our great seaports because sooner or later the ship will have Plimsoll's mark and be subject to the survey of the board of trade; if she is insured by Lloyd's there will be a survey, and if she is insured by other companies there will be a survey and the question of seaworthiness will always be considered. But when you come to our great lakes and to the question of the loading of the ship and the transporting of cargoes in the fall it is another matter. The

minister referred to the Sarniadoc case as an outstanding illustration of recent occurrence about which there was much litigation. We now have Canada engrafting upon its rules of law with respect to carriage a rule which says that the ship shall not be taken to be guaranteed to be absolutely seaworthy. The word "absolute" means of course just what it says. There was a condition that willy nilly the ship had to be in an implied seaworthy condition. Now you say there is no condition that a ship shall be absolutely seaworthy. I have a good enough opinion of my fellow countrymen and of all others who sail the great waters of the lakes to think that this is a dangerous thing.


Alan Webster Neill: It does not say absolutely seaworthy.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The undertaking was implied and it now is no longer absolute. The undertaking is a condition attaching to the contract. It is an implied condition, but there is no longer an absolute undertaking as to seaworthiness.


Alan Webster Neill: Would the leader of the
opposition (Mr. Bennett) explain the difference between an implied undertaking and an absolute undertaking? If I sign a note, that is an undertaking, and I cannot plead in court that it is not an absolute undertaking.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is just the point I am endeavouring to make; that is just the difficulty to which I was referring when I brought the matter to the minister's attention. Certain rules are attached to the bill as a schedule and become part of the bill. Article I of these rules refers to what is a contract. There are questions in these rules which entirely change the existing law with respect to delivery as distinct from merely putting the cargo out on a wharf or a dock. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) asks me to explain the difference between an absolute undertaking and an undertaking. That is used purely in a legal sense. I speak subject to the views of other members of the profession in the chamber, but this is the explanation I would give: When you say that an implied condition attaches to a contract and that it is of an absolute character, you mean that the undertaking is subject to no possible qualification, but when you say it is not absolute, that means it may be qualified. The extent to which it may be qualified under these rules depends upon the considerations which we will speak of when we come to the rules. That is the distinction between an undertaking and an absolute undertaking. An absolute undertaking is an

Carnage of Goods by Water
unqualified undertaking and means the assurance, as the hon. member said, that it is true. On the other hand, a mere undertaking may be subject to qualifications, if it is not expressed to be absolute.


Mr. KINLEY:: But this section does not relieve the ship owner of all responsibility.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, no.
Mr. HOWE-: I think perhaps I can give an example. The laws require that a ship carrying bulk wheat must have shifting boards. For twenty-five years boats have been carrying bulk grain on the great lakes without shifting boards. A particular type of boat had been built for this purpose and in theory it was thought that shifting boards were not needed. In the Sarniadoc case the boat did not have shifting boards, and this was discovered from a chance remark of the captain that he had not done certain things because he was afraid his cargo would shift. Under this bill such a defence could not be offered.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-Documents of title subject to the rules.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Mr. Chairman, I feel it is my duty to call attention to this section, which has caused a great deal of friction between shipper and carrier. In order properly to understand the section one must turn to article III of the schedule attached to the bill. Section 4 reads:
Every bill of lading, or similar document of title issued in Canada which contains or is evidence of any contract to which the rules apply shall contain an express statement that it is to have effect subject to the provisions of the rules as applied by this act.
In paragraph 3 of article III we find one of the rules referred to in this section. I want to draw attention to this rule because I believe it is not fair to the shipper. It will be noted that this rule first refers to the receiving of the goods by the carrier, and it then goes on to indicate certain conditions. I invite the attention of the committee to the proviso at the bottom of the rule, and I ask hon. members to bear in mind that all these things apply after the goods have been received by the shipper. This proviso reads:
Provided that no carrier, master or agent of the carrier, shall be bound to state or show in the bill of lading any marks, number, quantity, or weight which he has reasonable ground for suspecting not accurately to represent the goods actually received or which he has had no reasonable means of checking.
A shipment of goods consisting of miscellaneous packages may be delivered on a wharf and accepted by the carrier. These packages
are marked in a certain way, which marks are shown on the bill of lading. The carrier, having accepted the goods, may then be asked to issue a bill of lading, which is usually done. After all this has been done, the carrier can then plead that he has reasonable doubts as to the accuracy of the marking of the goods. The marking of goods is sometimes quite complicated, especially when they are being shipped to foreign destinations, but under this rule the carrier can plead, and I believe it is done, that he does not think the goods are accurately marked, and the shipper is out of luck. I know this thing is very often the subject of dispute between shipper and carrier.
While I am quite willing to admit that the carriers should be given every reasonable protection, I do submit that this is a carriers' bill and not a shippers' or merchants' bill. This bill is modelled on the British act which has been notoriously a carriers' act. I am extremely doubtful as to the protection given to our Canadian shipper-that is all we are concerned about-as against the carriers. It will be noted that paragraph 4 of this rule reads:
Such a bill of lading shall be prima facie evidence of the receipt by the carrier of the goods as therein described in accordance with paragraph 3(a), (b), and (c).
If any dispute or difficulty arises the carrier is able to plead that he has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the goods were not properly marked. This whole rule shows how well protected the carriers are. Paragraph 5 reads:
The shipper shall be deemed to have guaranteed to the carrier the accuracy at the time of shipment of the marks, number, quantity, and weight, as furnished by him, and the shipper shall indemnify the carrier against all loss, damages, and expenses arising or resulting from inaccuracies in such particulars.
There is the other side of the story. You are not only imposing upon the shipper the obligation to be accurate in every particular regarding the marks, number, quantity, weight and so on, but you are laying upon him the penalty that if he makes an error of any kind he shall indemnify the carrier, notwithstanding that the carrier has checked the goods, received and accepted them. The point I am arguing is this. When the goods are brought to the ship's side and offered by the shipper for carriage, it is the duty of the owner of the ship or of his agents to check these goods and see that they are in proper form and in accordance with the documents. I am not suggesting that the shipper should be relieved of obligation, but I am protesting, and I know it has been a fruitful cause of

Carriage oj Goods by Water
dispute in years gone by, against the absolute indemnifying of the carrier against loss, and the protection of the carrier if there is any reasonable doubt, whereas the shipper seems to be lost sight of entirely.
I confess that had I known this was coming up to-day there is a great deal of documentation with respect to past disputes that might have been brought to the fore and cited. The subject has not been before me for two or three years and my memory is therefore rather hazy on these technical points; but I do recall some very trying cases that shippers have been confronted with, even under the old Canadian act, which was less drastic than this bill as regards the protection it afforded carriers. While I have a great admiration for British legislation, generally speaking, I cannot help realizing that the chief industry in Great Britain is the carriage of goods by water. The shipping interests there are overwhelming in their influence upon legislation -in Great Britain. That however is not so in Canada, and I question very much whether this country would have gone as far as Great Britain did in connection with the water carriage of goods act. In saying that, I do not wish for a moment to suggest that we should not give adequate protection to carriers, but I think the Canadian parliament is largely on the opposite side of this question to the British parliament. The British parliament would naturally go a long way to protect British shipping, which predominates throughout the world, whereas we are shippers of goods. We are the owners of goods rather than the owners of ships. Consequently if the Canadian parliament wishes to take every precaution to protect the shipper of goods, we cannot expect an act modelled on the British act to provide these adequate safeguards. As I have pointed out, this particular section and the article in the rules based upon this section, would appear to me to be unreasonable in the extent of the protection or the immunity granted to the carriers.


Clarence Decatur Howe: My hon. friend stresses
England. I may remind him that twenty-four maritime nations have agreed to uniformity in this type of legislation. I was looking at the United States act, passed two months ago, after that country had watched the operations of the English act, and I find that in this respect it is exactly the same as the English act, and the same as this bill. The three contain identically the same clause. If Britain is a nation of carriers, I would point out to my hon. friend that in the United States, as in Canada, the shipment of goods predominates.
(Mr. Stevens.]


Henry Herbert Stevens: The information offered
by the minister is scarcely an answer to the point I have raised. As a matter of fact I differ from him, because in recent years the United States has been trying to rival Great Britain in the carriage of goods. It has made vast strides in'that direction and it might well be that with the enormous amounts of money spent by the American government in building freighters and passenger ships, and with the enormous subsidies they have been granting shipping on the Atlantic and the Pacific, and in fact throughout the world, the American congress may have been influenced in this respect. I am not very much impressed by the statement that the Americans have adopted this precise clause. I was not aware of that fact; I knew they had been considering these matters but I was not aware that they had adopted this precise provision. In any case, it would not be an answer to the question I have raised as to the wisdom of going quite as far as we have gone. The minister has referred to the clause. I should like to know whether the rules in the United States are exactly the same as the rules here, because the rule is what governs the clause, or at any rate it governs the action that may be taken based upon the clause.


Clarence Decatur Howe: The rules in both countries
are identical. This is rather a large subject to debate, but it does not seem reasonable to me, if the carrier is given a package by the shipper and is not able to verify the contents and weight, that the responsibility should be his. The responsibility with regard to contents and weight should be on the shipper if the carrier delivers the package on the other side.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is not what we are talking about; that is not the clause nor is it the rule. It is after he has received the goods, after he has had an opportunity to check them and measure them-it is all a matter of measurement-it is, after all, this that we are talking about. The clause which the minister is now referring to is another clause altogether. I believe it is section 7 or section 6 where, if there is a weight which is agreed to by a third party such as an elevator shipping wheat, the carrier has no responsibility for verifying the weight. Here however we are faced with something entirely different. I am sorry the minister does not seem inclined to make an explanation or to throw some light on the subject. I can only say that in my opinion this is .not giving adequate consideration to the rights of shippers. That is all I have to say.

Carriage oj Goods by Water


Clarence Decatur Howe: I should be glad to elaborate, but we are passing this act for the sake of uniformity, having complied with the findings of the Brussels convention. It does not seem to me that we can change it.


Henry Herbert Stevens: .Has a convention been entered into? I am not aware of any convention that obliges us to accept the British law in its entirety.


Clarence Decatur Howe: We were not one of the
twenty-four nations that agreed to it, but since then through correspondence with Great Britain and the United States, I am informed, we have committed ourselves to this bill. The United States passed their act on the understanding that we would fall in line. I do not know whether that is a legal commitment or not.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 5 and 6 agreed to.
On section 7-Liability of owner of vessel.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Might it not be desirable, instead of numbering the sections, to obviate the necessity of subsequently passing a statute to overcome difficulties regarding changes that may be made in the numbering of sections in other parts of the act? This, as a matter of fact, is the Merchant Shipping Act, what now we call the Canada Shipping Act, which is being amended at this very session; and we had a similar case in connection with the insurance act. Might we not say, "Nothing in this act shall affect the operation of the Canada Shipping Act limiting liability of the owner of vessels as therein provided," rather than attempt to number the sections? I suggest that because of the difficulty we had with the insurance act; I am not urging it at all. Sometimes the numbers are altered by putting in a new section of the act and giving a number to it, and the changes are automatic.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Johnston, Lake Centre):: Shall the schedule carry?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The schedule should be taken up carefully, because, as far as we are concerned, it is really the whole of this act. It was the schedule that was discussed. The schedule represents the convention-that is the real fact of the matter-and the legislation is merely to give effect to the provisions of the rules. Since the minister began his explanation I have recalled something of the circumstances to which he refers. An effort was made by the maritime powers to get a
universal 'bill of lading, one that would be adopted by all the maritime countries. It was found that Norwegians were large merchant shippers, the Germans before the war had an enormous amount of eastern shipping, the British also, and others; but we were not there, for a reason which I suppose is quite apparent-that we now have practically no shipping on the high seas. Our shipping is largely inland. It is a long time since the Brussels convention was held. It took place in what year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: In 1922.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They succeeded in
formulating this set of rules, and that is the real convention; the rest is legislation based on the rules, to give effect to them. There are three things to keep in mind as far as we are concerned. The charter of the ship is altogether a matter of contract between the owner of the ship and the shipper. We have nothing to do, as far as this bill is concerned, with the charter of the ship. But when it comes to the question of the contract for the carriage of the goods, and which by long custom we have called a bill of lading,-just what it says, the bill of what is laden into the ship-under our law both the shipper and the carrier have the right to tally what goes into the ship. The shipper delivers the goods within reach of the ship's tackle, and the ship keeps a tallyman or tallymen for the purpose of ascertaining what goes into the hold of the vessel. The point to which the hon. member for Kootenay East directed attention is one that has been the subject matter of much discussion. When I was a student at law I had cases in which the shipper signed his bill of lading under protest, and he drew up a formal notarial protest in which he claimed he had the right to protest against its being ?aid there were so many standards of deals in the ship when as a matter of fact, according to his contention, there were not that number-or whatever the case might be. He therefore signed his bill of lading under protest and made his notarial protest. Now this is an endeavour to give effect to that rule of maritime law that the master, representing the owners of the ship, signs his bill of lading under protest, but the form whereby it is to be done is a very strange one, and I wondered at the language as it was being read:
Provided that no carrier, master or agent of the carrier shall be bound to state or show in the bill of lading any marks, number, quantity, or weight which he has reasonable ground for suspecting not accurately to represent the goods actually received or which ha has had no reasonable means of checking.

Carriage of Goods by Water
Another paragraph of the rules gives effect to the old common law rule that the owner of the ship checks or tallies what goes into the vessel. The captain is usually the man to do this, or he has one of his officers doing it. It seems strange to say that in lieu of the old form of signing his bill of lading under notarial protest he is to decline to sign that bill of lading by stating-going so far as to say, if he has reasonable ground for "suspecting"-it does not accurately represent the goods actually received. "Suspecting" is a strange word to use in a statute with respect to a contract. When the minister says this represents the rule that has been agreed upon, I suppose it is desirable that ninety-five per cent of the carrying business of the world should be subject to some general rule. We however are more concerned in shipping the goods by freight, by vessel, than we are in the position of the owner of the ship. In other words, we are shippers, not carriers. The United States did not pass this bill, I believe, until two years ago?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Two months ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh. That explains something that I could not quite understand. If that happened only two months ago I quite appreciate the position, because the United States had declined up to a quite recent time to complete any arrangement by passing the legislation affected by this rule of Brussels. If they have done it now, I suppose it is because the carriers are becoming more important than the shippers, and they are able to influence congressional action, whereas in years gone by they certainly were not. At any rate, this being so, I quite understand the minister's position.
There is one thing I think he might do. It seems to me that in a country like this we should not bind ourselves to this three-day rule. We might modify at least that rule without affecting the general principle. There is no reason why the question of time should not be regulated by the necessities of each country rather than by any general rule. I refer to number six:
Unless notice of loss or damage and the general nature of such loss or damage be given in writing to the carrier or his agent at the port of discharge before or at the time of the removal of the goods into the custody of the person entitled to delivery thereof under the contract of carriage, or, if the loss or damage be not apparent, within three days, such removal shall be prima facie evidence of the delivery by the carrier of the goods as described in the bill of lading.
As the law stood, at least under the ordinary rule governing sale of goods under contract, it was that a man had a reasonable time

within which to inspect and reject or accept. The old rule in our Sale of Goods Act was "a reasonable time." Our old rule used to make delivery absolute. As it is now it is somewhat changed. The carrier hands the goods over, and when they are removed if within three days he does not get notice that there has been loss or damage, the claim to loss or damage is gone. There are certain types of goods, both coming into this country and departing from it, in respect of which it seems to me that three days may be too short a time in which to make it clear that the damage, although not apparent, is there. "Such removal shall be prima facie evidence of the delivery by the carrier of the goods as described in the bill of lading." In other words, he has complied with the bill of lading and delivered the goods safely under the conditions mentioned in the rule, unless within three days the person receiving them gives notice that there are. now apparent conditions which make for loss or damage of the goods that he is receiving.


Mr. STIRLING:: Why should it be any different in Canada?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Consider our position. First of all we have great frosts and the other difficulties that are incident to climatic conditions, so that what might be apparent in four days might not be apparent in three days with respect to the condition of goods. I do not think there is any point in regard to the arbitrary fixing of the period, but it appeared to me that three days was rather a short time. I recall a case which one always recalls in these matters, of a cargo of turkeys that went from eastern Canada to the west.


Charles Avery Dunning: They move the other way now.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes; the last five years brought that about. The carload was inspected and it was found that it had not been properly refrigerated so that apparently there was a loss. It was contended that the inspection and rejection had not taken place promptly and therefore the owner brought an action to recover the purchase price-at least the bank, as the holder of the bill of lading, brought the action, which failed. It struck me that the officers of the department would be able to tell the minister whether in a country such as this, where we have sudden extreme heat and cold and where we move cargoes so rapidly, this length of time was sufficient. For instance, suppose a cargo was accepted in Vancouver for shipment to Calgary and it made the journey in three days. When it arrived there, as soon as the consignee had an opportunity it was inspected and found to

Carriage oj Goods by Water
be not in good condition, attributable entirely to the voyage. In such a case one might say that three days might be too short a time.
I have no settled views on the matter, except that it struck me in that way. The whole series of rules, as I said in the beginning and as has been said by the hon. member for Kootenay East, is predicated upon the carrier receiving every consideration and the shipper being more or less at his mercy, subject of course to the terms of the rules. Probably it is better to have those rules in that form, so that they are uniform throughout the shipping world, than to rely upon the varying decisions that might be given if there were no uniformity. Every country has its own common law rules. We have rules in this country that are far more favourable to the shipper than these. The statute we are repealing is far more favourable to the shipper than the one we are now passing; it affords him a measure of protection which we do not now afford him. I have no doubt, as the minister has said, that the carriers are pleased to have this statute become part of the laws of this country, but I am afraid that the shipper is less vocal than the carrier because he is not organized, whereas the carrier is organized and speaks with authority and with a single voice when he attends a conference. The only surprise I felt was when the minister said the United States had passed a statute accepting these rules, because I knew that up to a few months ago they had not done so. Then when the minister told me it was only two months ago that this had been done, it removed the necessity for any further observations on my part. With our small shipping I think we were content to become a party to the general convention provided that in addition to the other countries the United States, our near neighbour, accepted it, and that had not been done when I was last familiar with the matter.


Clarence Decatur Howe: As to the time limit, as I have said this is an attempt at uniformity, but as far as I can see there is no objection to a longer period, if my right hon. friend cares to move an amendment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was just asking if the minister had thought about it, because it struck me that three days might be a little too short a time. After all, in a country like this five days might not be too short or too long, but I am not definitely committed to anything.


Clarence Decatur Howe: Three days is the uniform period.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Then I would hesitate to change it.


Alan Webster Neill: I suppose I am only showing my ignorance in asking this question, but perhaps I can obtain some information. I revert to the section referred to by the right hon. leader of the opposition, the proviso at the end of paragraph 3 of article III of the schedule, which reads:
Provided that no carrier ... shall be bound to state or show in the bill of lading any marks, number, quantity, or weight which he has reasonable ground for suspecting not accurately to represent the goods actually received ...
As the right hon. leader of the opposition has stated, this certainly seems to me to be a carriers' bill. Supposing I ship fifty gallons of whisky in a number of demijohns and the man says he suspects that my statement as to the quantity is incorrect. Does he only put down on the bill of lading "whisky"? In that case, when it reaches the other end and my consignee takes delivery, he is entirely at the mercy of the carrier. The carrier may have drunk half the whisky, and then he could say, "All we undertake to deliver was whisky, and you have received whisky." Surely there should be some provision for protecting the shipper; surely the carrier should say "so many demijohns said to contain so many gallons of whisky" or something like that. Apparently, if I am reading this aright, all he has to put down in that case is the article shipped; he is not bound to put down the number, quantity or weight. Would the minister explain that?


Clarence Decatur Howe: I think it was explained by the right hon. leader of the opposition that it has always been possible to take a notarial statement casting doubt on the representations made as to the shipment. This is a similar provision. In other words, if you said there was whisky and the other man had some doubt about the quantity, if you still insisted that he take it for delivery I think perhaps he would say on the bill of lading "fifty demijohns full of liquid" or something like that. In other words, he has a right to refuse to put on the bill of lading something he does not believe is true, and I suppose you have your right to withdraw the shipment under those circumstances. I think that is the position.


Alan Webster Neill: Then would the minister explain this other point in regard to the definition of goods, contained in paragraph (c) of the definition:
"Goods" includes goods, wares, merchandise, and articles of every kind whatsoever, except live animals and cargo which by the nature of carriage is stated as being carried on deck and is so carried.

Carriage of Goods by Water
Why is that exception made? Within the last two or three years we passed an act by which large quantities of lumber might be carried on deck, so why should that lumber be exempt from the presumed benefits of this act? Since it is not defined as goods I assume it does not come under the act.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Lumber does come under this act but it did not come under the old act.


Alan Webster Neill: This definition states:
... except live animals and cargo which by the contract of carriage is stated as being carried on deck and is so carried.
If it is carried on deck it does not count as goods.	.


Clarence Decatur Howe: That is true. Lumber did not count as goods even if stored below deck under the previous carriage of goods act. Under this act it qualifies as goods if it is properly stowed, but if it is put on deck it is subject to special risks and does not come under the ordinary ship cargo insurance.


John James Kinley: Mr. Chairman, from the very nature of it this legislation is intended for the future. The idea has been expressed that the act is extremely in favour of the carrier, and the hon. member for Kootenay East in particular said that we are not a carrying nation but a shipping nation, and therefore-


Henry Herbert Stevens: I did not say that; I said we were not a carrying nation in the sense that Great Britain is.


John James Kinley: I quite accept what the hon. gentleman says, but it only emphasizes my point: I hope we do not accept the idea that we shall always be a shipping nation and not a carrying nation. We in the maritime provinces have some aspirations in regard to preserving to Canada the carrying of our goods upon the sea. It is our ambition that in the future we should become more of a carrying nation.


Grote Stirling: The explanatory note
opposite article III reads:
It will be noted that the carrier is bound to exercise due diligence before and at the beginning of the voyage. The present Canadian statute (section 4) requires due diligence to be used to make and keep the ship seaworthy. It is not practical to require the owner to keep the vessel seaworthy and the wording of the British Act is desirable.
To one who is not particularly versed in shipping it seems an extraordinary statement that the ship owner is not required to keep the ship seaworthy.


Clarence Decatur Howe: While we will all agree that it is possible to make a ship seaworthy it may not be always possible to keep it seaworthy. In other words a ship may be technically unseaworthy as the result of a storm. It may be made seaworthy again after that, but I think the distinction there may be recognized.
I have a few amendments, chiefly typographical errors. On page 4, section 6, the word "damage" is misspelled, and an "a" should be inserted.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I do not think that is necessary


Henry Herbert Stevens: We do not need an amendment for that.


Mr. RINFRET:: I move:
That section 6 of article III be amended by substituting the word "damage" for "dmage" in the second line thereof.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I move:
That	subparagraph	(b)	of section	2	of
article IV be amended by inserting the word "fault" after the word "actual" in the first line thereof.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I move:
That	subparagraph	(q)	of section	2	of
article IV be amended by substituting the word "and" for the word "or" in the first line thereof.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I move:
That article V be amended by inserting the words "and liabilities" after the word "responsibilities" in the third line thereof.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Henry Herbert Stevens: That sounds rather strange to me, to provide that a person shall surrender his liabilities. I should think they would be glad to surrender their liabilities at any time. Is that in accordance with the British act?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. It was left out in the printing by mistake.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is not a surrender of
responsibilities; it is an increase of them- a surrender of rights and immunities.
Articles as amended agreed to.
Schedule as amended agreed to.
Bill reported.

Customs Act



CUSTOMS ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of National Revenue) moved the second reading of Bill No. 67, to amend the Customs Act (Canadian waters).
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
On section 1-"Officer."
Henry Herbert Stevens: Would the minister be
good enough to make a brief statement as to the general purpose of the bill?


Mr. ILSLEY:: It is a short bill, five sections in all. It is designed to strengthen the preventive work of the customs service. Section 1 defines "officer" as used in the Customs Act. Section 2 defines "Canadian waters" and "Canadian customs waters." Both these terms are new as far as I know. "Canadian waters," roughly speaking, comprise all the marine league, that is the waters included within the three mile limit, and "Canadian customs waters" the waters in the nine mile belt outside the three mile limit.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Why did they make
it that rather than twelve miles?


James Lorimer Ilsley: We would have to have
some description. In the act being amended we referred to them as territorial waters of Canada, or some phrase which I do not just remember, which did apply to waters within the twelve mile limit. But His Majesty's government in Great Britain made representations that it was of some importance not to define territorial waters of Canada in that way. The powers to be exercised outside the marine league, outside of Canadian waters, so-called, are very limited powers.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Police powers, practically.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Police powers, yes. Section 3 provides that certain vessels must carry manifests. Section 4 defines hovering, sets out the powers in respect of hovering vessels and contains other provisions relating to hovering. Section 5 repeals section 207 of the act. I hope that the brief explanation is sufficient for the purposes of the member for Kootenay East.


John James Kinley: I assume this bill is for the purpose of the better enforcement of the Customs Act, that it concerns only Canadian shipping, and that the authority is over every Canadian ship within the twelve mile limit.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is scarcely correct. If the hon. gentleman will look at the bill he will find that vessels other than Canadian vessels are affected by its provisions.


Richard Bedford Bennett: For police purposes only.


James Lorimer Ilsley: For police purposes only. This bill affects vessels registered in Canada and unregistered vessels owned by a person resident or domiciled in Canada and other vessels or classes of vessels specified or enumerated by proclamation of the governor in council. This third class of vessels would be vessels registered in countries other than Canada. But the bill does not assert jurisdiction over these vessels within the nine mile limit unless they are enumerated or specified by proclamation of the governor in council. It is anticipated that that will be dealt with by agreement. For instance Newfoundland vessels in the nine mile belt, outside the three-mile limit, will in all probability be specified or enumerated by proclamation of the governor in council as a class of vessels to which this act will apply.


John James Kinley: By agreement.


James Lorimer Ilsley: By agreement between the government of Canada and the government of Newfoundland, and agreements of this nature will undoubtedly be made with many countries.


John James Kinley: Have you now an agreement with Great Britain?


James Lorimer Ilsley: No.


John James Kinley: The point that occurs to me is that vessels sailing out of Canada might change their registry to Barbados or Bermuda or the Jersey Islands. The Jersey Islands in the past have been a favourite place to register vessels. They have some peculiar sort of independence from Great Britain, and in days gone by to register a vessel in the Jersey Islands gave them almost absolute freedom. Now if this bill is enacted into law, will it cause a certain class of vessel to register in foreign countries and thus give them greater freedom than they would have if they were registered in Canada, although they may be owned in Canada only by mortgage or on shares?


James Lorimer Ilsley: The control over vessels registered in foreign countries which is to be exerted in the nine mile belt outside of the marine league will be effective only if an agreement is made between this country and the country of registry of the vessels. Does that answer the question?
Customs Act


John James Kinley: I understand that perfectly. But the point I want to make is that after all this is a very ineffective way of controlling the customs situation. It will' not get you very far, will it?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I do not know why it should not. Canada will have complete jurisdiction over vessels in the three mile limit.


John James Kinley: It always had.


James Lorimer Ilsley: And will have the right of pursuit, which is dealt with in the bill. It will also have control over vessels registered in certain countries which make agreements with Canada when those vessels are outside the three mile limit.


Alan Webster Neill: Will it not induce Canadian vessels to register in a foreign country that does not have an agreement with Great Britain in order to smuggle goods within the nine mile area without restraint by Canadian officers?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think what the government has in mind is bringing vessels of a notorious character engaged in certain well known activities within the police powers of this act. If a proclamation were made following an agreement between this country and the country whose ships notoriously engage in illicit operations, such vessels would be subject to the punitive powers we have provided by our statute. Is not that correct?


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is correctly stated.


Alan Webster Neill: But the notorious vessels will take care not to register in countries with which you have an agreement.


James Lorimer Ilsley: We believe no country will refuse to make an agreement.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2

"Canadian waters."
James Lorimer Ilsley: Since the bill was prepared it has been deemed advisable to strike out the words "and shall conform with," in lines twenty-eight and twenty-nine, so that it will read:
Canadian waters shall not extend beyond the limits of exclusion recommended in the North Atlantic Fisheries Award,
And so on. That makes a difference in the meaning of the section, of course, but it really does not injure the section because in another part it is provided that a map or chart may be issued under the authority of and approved by the governor in council which shall be conclusive evidence of the due deter-

mination of such base lines, and Canadian waters shall not be defined on that map to extend beyond the limits of exclusion recommended in the North Atlantic fisheries award. There is a real reason for the subsection.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the addition of the extract from the award as a part of the bill is highly to be commended. It gives to those who read the bill immediate knowledge regarding a matter of some importance, namely, what the decision of the arbitrators was. It gives the information at once by looking at the statute, which I think is exceedingly desirable having regard to the technical character of the answer given to question V as set forth in the schedule.


Charles Avery Dunning: I move the amendment accordingly, Mr. Chairman.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Richard Bedford Bennett: I would have worded the paragraph a little differently and said "beyond the limits of exclusion recommended in the answer to question V," but I do not desire to suggest that my draft would be any better than that of the gentleman who drew this.
Section as amended agreed to.
On section 3-Master shall have manifest on board.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is not much difference here except that this makes it obligatory. But most ships do carry manifests that give these particulars, as I understand it.


James Lorimer Ilsley: Many ships carrying smuggled liquor do not carry manifests.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I realize that, but the manifest usually contains this information.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4-Application of section.
John James Kinley: The minister said that
there was no arrangement with Great Britain. I am puzzled about this because I believe that any good effect to be derived from this bill will be derived by arrangement with other countries. Otherwise, it will only drive ships from our shores until we do have such arrangements. England entered into a twelve mile arrangement with the United States, to which agreement we are a party. Would that not mean that at the present moment we have an arrangement with Great Britain as to the twelve mile limit?


James Lorimer Ilsley: At the present time we
have limited rights over vessels within the nine mile belt, but this section will give us

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the right to conclude arrangements with other countries by which we can exercise much more complete control than we can at the present time.


John James Kinley: It will be recalled that the United States legislation called for an hour's sail from shore. England and the United States entered into an agreement to this effect; they were the primary signatories, but we were a party. A vessel might register at Bermuda or some other British possession and thus be exempt from the twelve mile limit regulations.


James Lorimer Ilsley: That arrangement does not
enable seizures to be made within twelve miles of Canada. It deals only with seizures within twelve miles of the American coast.


John James Kinley: It was a one way agreement.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister will remember the circumstances. The Americans were imposing upon British ships a certain condition, namely, that they should not have in their possession any intoxicating liquors while in the United States during prohibition. The gr6at steamship companies carrying passengers across the Atlantic were confronted with a serious situation and as a result Great Britain negotiated with the United States. The United States said that they must have the right within twelve miles of their shores to search and exercise police powers over ships flying the British flag. The price paid for that concession was the permission for British vessels to bring their liquors into American ports. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for them to operate. The matter was all the subject of diplomatic correspondence and discussion before my time, but the counsel of the department could tell the minister the circumstances. The Cunard line took a very active part in this, and finally the British government secured the rights I have indicated, while they conceded the right to have searches made on their ships and police powers exercised within an hour's run or twelve miles from shore, within nine miles of what was known as the territorial three mile limit.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
Richard Bedford Bennett: I was going to suggest to the minister that it might be desirable in the interests of administration to provide that this act shall come into force on a date fixed by proclamation published in the Canada Gazette. If this legislation became effective immediately there would be no opportunity
for the minister to discuss these matters with other countries and it struck me that his purposes might be better served if the act were to go into force on a date fixed by proclamation, in the same way as we did with the bill we just passed. The minister might also provide that this act shall come into force in whole or in part on proclamation. In practice it has been found very useful to proclaim one section when you could not proclaim the whole act. I make this suggestion only in the interests of effective administration.


James Lorimer Ilsley: I think the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman is a valuable one, especially the latter part with reference to the whole or part of the bill coming into force on proclamation. I shall ask my colleague to move such an amendment.


Charles Avery Dunning: I move that there be added a new section 6 as follows:
This act in whole or in part shall come into force on a date or dates to be fixed by proclamation of the governor in council published in the Canada Gazette.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. MacNEIL:: I would direct the attention of the minister to an apparent misprint in the last word of rule 1 on page 7. This word should no doubt be "miles."


James Lorimer Ilsley: That is correct'; it should be "miles."


Charles Avery Dunning: No motion is needed to correct that.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Other projects-national parks-
Buildings-construction and repairs, including buffalo abattoir, $20,000, $100,000.
Forest and game conservation works, $25,000.
Municipal services-construction, extensions and improvements, $25,000.
Recreational areas-extensions and improvements, $25,000.
Roads-construction and repairs, including Golden-Revelstoke highway and improvements to main tourist routes from international boundary to Banff, Yoho and Kootenay parks, $850,000.
Townsite development, $25,000.
Wharves and beach protection works, $13,200.
Development of new parks-maritime provinces, $140,000.
Miscellaneous, $25,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister was going to give further information about the roads.
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Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of the Interior) :: There is not a great deal I can add to the information I gave when the matter was under consideration on the last occasion. We have under negotiation now with the British Columbia government the question of an agreement definitely fixing the completion of what is known as the west leg of the Big Bend highway. It may be recalled by hon. members who were present when the item was last discussed that the arrangement to complete that portion of the trans-Canada highway was embodied in telegrams and letters which had been exchanged. We hope to reach an arrangement with the British Columbia government whereby we shall complete that part of the work within the next three or four years.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As long as that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly three years, with the understanding that the British Columbia government will take over the maintenance of each year's portion as it is completed. There have been some discussions with that government with respect to the road from Kingsgate into the park, and I hope we shall be able to conclude with them, by formal agreement, an arrangement whereby they will bear fifty per cent of the cost of dust-proofing that road, the federal government to put up the other fifty per cent.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Has that road from Kingsgate been standardized?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not all of it. Part of it is now so constructed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What distance is that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About 150 miles, from
Kingsgate to the park.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know that; but how much has been standardized?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About twenty-four miles has been hard-surfaced, and about a third of the road is graded to standard. I have also had under discussion with the Alberta government the matter of assisting with what they describe as the blotter type of road. I believe that they constructed some mileage of that in Alberta between Waterton park and Calgary. If the arrangement is carried out it will probably involve a total expenditure of $75,000 on the part of the federal government by way of assistance. When that work is completed we shall have the circle from Waterton park right on to Calgary, Banff and Kingsgate, or the other way round, which will be dust-proof, and I believe it will be useful in attracting tourist traffic from the United States.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What part of the park would the Kingsgate road strike?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Kootenay national park, at Radium Hot Springs. I am not familiar with the geography of the place, but I trust that is the information my right hon. friend wants.


Grote Stirling: What view will the minister take of the suggestion made a year or two ago that a strip of land on the west leg of the Big Bend highway should be created a park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I was not aware that
such a suggestion had been made, but at the moment I do not see what particular bearing it would have. The road is in British Columbia, and after its completion it is the responsibility of British Columbia to maintain it. I assume they own the land, or the portion that is adjacent to the road. If the hon. member has in mind some particular reason why such a strip should be set aside, I am certainly not aware of any such suggestion.


Grote Stirling: I am not presently
advocating it, but the suggestion certainly was made, I think in 1934. I heard it discussed. I hold certain views with regard to it which it is not necessary for me to express now if the minister is not contemplating carrying it out.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is the first I have
heard of it, but my deputy informs me that in 1934 there was some discussion on the basis of the federal government's completing the road and probably maintaining it in consideration of getting this particular strip to which the hon. member refers. What practical value a strip of land on either side of the road would be to the federal government I am not at the moment in a position to say.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the information the minister has given is that which the committee was asking for the other day, but I am disappointed to hear him say that it will take three or four years to complete the road to the coast because that will stand in the way of complete means of transport being afforded from the park to Vancouver. There is the old road, and I fancy that cars sometimes go through, though I doubt it. I thought, however, that the road would be completed in less than three years. I say that for this reason. The province of British Columbia entered into a contract to complete the road within a shorter period than that. That is the old contract under which we did some work up to a

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certain point, and they were to finish it. I am not sure of the exact date when it was to be finished. This is 1936 and it would probably be 1939 or 1940. Can the minister tell me the date of completion as given in the original contract?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We now hope it will be
finished in the fall of 1939.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes. It will now be
193^40, which is a serious matter. If the road from Kingsgate is completed to Radium Hot Springs and made dust-proof, and the same with the road from Waterton park to Calgary, then there has been a certain amount of dust-proofing done between Calgary and Banff; the only other stretch would be from Waterton park to the United States boundary, and that has been put into fairly good shape. But it will take some time to complete the road from Kingsgate to Radium. Only twenty-four miles of it has been constructed, and the balance has not been graded. The territory is fairly difficult, while affording an excellent opportunity for relief work, which is what is contemplated under this expenditure. Therefore I think it is an admirable enterprise, provided an arrangement is made that will not create a precedent which will be embarrassing to the minister. As to the extent of the contribution, that does not make so much difference, because we must recognize that the road itself as far as the park, between Kingsgate and the park, is the property of the province of British Columbia, and not ours, and therefore we must not put ourselves in entire possession of provincial roads which belong to the crown in another relation, as the minister said the other day.
On another occasion I mentioned to the minister the matter of the completion of the road from Edmonton to Jasper along the line of the old Canadian Northern grade. The minister will recall that the city of Edmonton took up with the then president of the Canadian National the question of the acquisition for highway purposes of the abandoned right of way between west of Edmonton and Jasper park. The president was willing that this right of way should be acquired, but there were certain difficulties- very great difficulties, legally-from the standpoint of securing a good title or a lease for any great length of time. Finally the province expressed willingness to take the right of way and make the necessary changes and alterations to fit it for a highway. So far as I know that work has not been completed, and I suggest to the minister that it would be very helpful if something of the sort could be done, because otherwise it will continue to
12739-206	*
be difficult to get into Jasper from Edmonton. The present condition has interfered seriously with the movement of tourist traffic. If the road to Jasper is finished, and then the work upon the line from Jasper to Banff is completed, within a reasonable time there will be a fairly complete tourist highway, meeting the situation, if not as fully as one would like, at least in a moderate way having regard to our financial and other conditions.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I appreciate the importance of the point raised by the right hon. leader of the opposition. This arrangement with the British Columbia government regarding the Kingsgate-Kootenay park road will, if it is completed, constitute a definite agreement covering only that work, and for a specific purpose, also with the obligation upon the British Columbia government to maintain the road in that condition. That is the basis of the arrangement which we are trying to carry out.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And it is a relief undertaking.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And, of course, it is for the relief of unemployment. I venture to say that were it not for the calls of relief, a great many of these expenditures we are considering would not be undertaken. I know very little respecting the road from Edmonton to Jasper. That matter has not yet come before me. I believe representations have been made-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, yes, by the board of trade.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -by the board of trade of Edmonton. Of course, in all these matters it is largely a question of money. I should like to finish the west leg of the Big Bend highway next summer, if that could be done. But when I bring these estimates, amounting to a good many hundreds of thousands of dollars, before a Finance minister who is rather stony-hearted when it comes to expenditures, I have to take that circumstance into account. If our revenues improve and the situation becomes brighter financially the road might be completed in a shorter period, but at the moment I should not care to give any undertaking that it will be completed before the time I have already mentioned.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I mentioned the Jasper
matter because it is one singularly within the jurisdiction of the federal government, having regard to the fact that the rails and ties have been removed from that section of the right of way west of Edmonton into Jasper, and I think a good deal could be done without

Supply-Interior-Parks

too great an expenditure. This would certainly be helpful in getting into that park, because the road from Calgary to Edmonton is not too bad for motoring, and some steps have been taken to relieve it of the dust nuisance.


Mr. GREEN:: Just what work is to be
done this year on the Big Bend highway? We are very much interested in that, because it is the last gap in the western portion of the trans-Canada highway.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think I gave that information before. It is intended to spend about $400,000 on the west leg and $70,000 on the east leg, which expenditure, it is estimated, will complete the latter portion of the highway, including the bridge across the Columbia river.


Howard Charles Green: How much mileage will
remain to be completed on the west leg?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that there
are about seventy-two miles on the west leg yet to be completed, but that portion is expensive to construct. For instance, we had some slides on a portion of the work which has already been done this spring, and it was estimated that it would take a steam shovel two weeks to clear these mud slides off the road. I mention that merely to give an indication of the difficult nature of the country through which the road is being built. However I hope it will be completed within three years.


Howard Charles Green: Does the minister mean that it will take three or four years to complete those seventy-nine miles of road, including the work that is to be done this year? This is important also to the prairie people, because it is their way of getting out to British Columbia, as well as our way of getting to the prairies.


Alan Webster Neill: I know the matter has been brought to the attention of the department by public bodies and by myself, but I wonder whether the minister has considered the advisability of establishing a beach park in British Columbia? He has four parks in that province. They are all highly mountainous, with wild and rugged scenery, wild animals, big precipices, hairpin turns, and things like that; but to round off his program I suggest, and others have suggested, that he needs a park on a beach to which people could come, not only from California and the southern states, but from our own country. As times improve we get a considerable tourist trade from the prairies, and I know, from people whom I have met, that very many persons are ordered to leave the prairies and come to the coast, temporarily or permanently, to get

away from the high altitude; it gets on their nerves, and causes a condition which medical men can explain better than I can. If those people can go to the coast for only a couple of months in the summer, spend their time at sea level, with a beach for the kiddies to play on, and enjoy themselves in a quiet way, without any great expense, this would be a tremendous advantage to persons in that condition who have a little money to spend. In my district-and though I am apparently speaking selfishly, I have no personal interest in the matter-there is an area which can be obtained for a mere trifle, having almost every advantage that can be named: a beautiful white beach with no stones on it, warmed by reason of the shallowness of the water and so made suitable for bathing, a beautiful park behind it, close to the public highway, with facilities for electric light almost on the ground, and with trout fishing in the neighbourhood which will provide recreation for adults. I believe it would be a good thing to round out the department's policy by acquiring such a park, and I should like the minister to promise at least to give the suggestion his consideration.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: With respect to the matter mentioned by the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill), he has made representations to our parks branch for the establishment of a park of the kind to which he has referred. Any area for a park, of course, must be supplied by the provincial government. Under the act the federal government does not purchase or acquire such property; that is acquired and turned over by the provincial government to the federal government for park purposes. That would naturally be a prerequisite in this case. Then, again, there is the question of the amount of money that the federal government can spend year by year in park development all over the country. I think I mentioned to the committee previously-and, if not, I will do so now-that the total investment in parks in Canada is approximately $30,000,000.
With regard to the other point raised by the hon. member for Vancouver South, the matter is not so much one of distance. The seventy-two miles would seem to be a comparatively short distance in order to complete the west leg, but the real question is the amount of money involved. It is estimated that it will cost $2,000,000 to construct that portion of the highway.


Howard Charles Green: That includes the $400,000 being voted this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, of course. If next year I can get a million and a half dollars to spend on that road I will spend that much money,

Supply-Interior-Parks
but it must be borne in mind that certain expenditures have to be made in all these parks. There are roads leading into them; there are in the parks works that are partly completed, and it would be difficult to take the whole vote and spend it in one locality. The hon. member will appreciate the difficulties of a minister who would endeavour to do that. So I am afraid I shall have to ask him to be as patient as possible in connection with this matter, and we will complete the highway as soon as it is reasonably possible to do so.


Howard Charles Green: It may be that the burden is being placed on the wrong department. After all, this question goes much deeper than the national parks. This is one very sure and effective way of drawing the provinces of Canada closer together, and on that ground alone I think the government should see to it that the trans-Canada highway is completed without delay. Perhaps the expense should not be borne by the national parks branch, but certainly some department should see to it that this section of seventy-nine miles of road is completed right away.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The expense is not borne by the national parks branch, but that branch has the responsibility of building the road, so, of course, it gets the money to do the work. As far as the tourist business is concerned I might say that I understand the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have arranged a sort of land ferry for transporting cars across the base of the triangle formed by the big bend of the Columbia river, and it is possible for tourists to leave Vancouver, come as far as possible by road, load their cars onto the facilities provided by the Canadian Pacific and be transported to the road on the other side of the big bend.


Howard Charles Green: Of course the tragedy of that situation is that tourists will not travel that way. They will go by road through the United States, and Canada will lose that business.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We shall get it after a while.


Alan Webster Neill: I quite realize that any park taken over by the dominion government would have to be offered to them free of charge. What I wanted, rather, was an indication from the minister that he would favourably regard such an offer and that he appreciated the value of having a beach park. The minister has spoken for quite a while this afternoon as to the various developments being carried on in connection with the interior parks; he has been throwing around sums like 12739-2061
S75,000	as if they were mere bagatelles. There is a public road right into this particular park of which I speak, so the cost of developing the park would be practically nil. The electric line is within a few hundred feet, and nature has done everything else. All that needs to be done in connection with the park portion is to leave it alone, for the most part; it would require only a very small sum, perhaps two or three thousand dollars, to put up a number of cabins such as are common for the use of tourists, and even these could be made self-sustaining by the imposition of a small charge.
With regard to the accessibility of this park, a man and a woman with a car coming from the prairies, however poor their car might be, can cross on the ferry from Vancouver to Nanaimo for a dollar or two, and reach this park in three hours. They do not have to spend two or three days going down through the United States or over impossible roads to get to this park, and then face the necessity of retracing their steps to get home again. This park is thoroughly accessible and would be used to a great extent not only by people from the United States but also by our prairie people and by the residents of Victoria and Vancouver. It would be used particularly by people of the prairies who have to get to this low altitude from time to time because of their health. I meet many people who have come to the coast because they have been told by their doctors that they had to get to a lower altitude because of heart or nerve trouble. The cost would be absolutely a bagatelle. If the minister will give the offer favourable consideration I will guarantee to do the rest. We will deliver the park to him on a platter, and the expense of developing it would be practically nothing.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am always glad to give consideration to any suggestion that may be made by my hon. friend. I have just had handed to me a brief memorandum, in which the point is raised that the area of this proposed park, which is 321 acres, might not be sufficient for a national park. Probably that matter could be adjusted if we were in a financial position to allow us to go ahead with it. That would depend upon financial conditions which at the moment we cannot foresee. We do not know what our revenue is going to be for the coming year. If it increases, as we hope it will, it may be possible to extend our parks operations. If conditions are such that we have to limit the expenditure of money, then I am sure my hon. friend will appreciate the significance of that fact.
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Alan Webster Neill: The area is small, but in a case of this kind it is quality we want rather than quantity. This particular park has a beach which I think is about a mile in length. A picnic was held there last year which was attended by five or six thousand people, and the beach could easily have held three times as many. There is no danger of its not being ample for the ordinary traffic that might be anticipated for quite a number of years to come.


Mr. BROOKS:: It has been interesting to ' listen to the remarks of the minister in regard to these parks throughout Canada, especially the statement that 830,000,000 has been invested in the national parks in the different provinces. I was also interested to hear the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill), with three or four parks in British Columbia already, asking for another. The other evening we were discussing a park in New Brunswick, and at that time the minister stated that the creation of a park in that province depended upon factors as to which I should not care to pass an opinion at the moment. I should like to ask the minister just what really are the factors which are holding up the creation of a park in New Brunswick. I was pleased to note a vole of
8100,000	for a park in Nova Scotia. It is pleasing to know that the members from Nova Scotia have been able to sink any differences of opinion that they may have had, and to decide on a site for a park. The same is true of Prince Edward Island, but the people of New Brunswick would like to know what is holding up the development of a park in that province. If the minister can give me that information I shall be glad.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think what I stated when the matter was before the committee previously was that a definite area had not yet been selected for park purposes in New Brunswick. An investigation was made by one of the officers of the parks branch, who examined several sites. I believe he recommended one particular site, but considerable objection was taken to that by certain interests within the province which did not think it suitable. When a site for a park is once determined, it is fixed for all time to come, and consequently I am sure the hon. member is impressed with the importance of having the selection wisely made. It is better to make haste slowly and make the best selection, rather than act hurriedly and get a location which perhaps for all time after one would regret. That is why no selection has been made definitely in New Brunswick.

Then, of course, there is another fact. The government of New Brunswick will have to deed over free this park area, so naturally the government of that province is interested. We hope to get further with the matter this year; we shall have further reports, and if circumstances warrant it we shall bring forward a recommendation next year for the establishment of a park in New Brunswick.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I thank the minister for his explanation, and I would like to ask if in Nova Scotia the provincial government has already deeded over the site.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The area has been selected in Nova Scotia. The Nova Scotia government had to acquire certain private lands, but they advise us that they expect to be able to turn over title of that park area to us within a short time, probably during the coming week.


Mr. MacNICOL:: For a long time I have been interested in conservation work. I see one item in this estimate, namely, forest and game conservation works. I have been working for the past two days in connection with conservation for Ontario-


Mr. FINN:: Of the party!


John Ritchie MacNicol: -assisting in selecting the
new premier-to-be of Ontario, when the provincial government next goes to the country, so if the minister has answered any questions in regard to this item I can look up in Hansard what he has said. If he has not, I shall be glad to have some explanation of it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it was referred to when the matter was under consideration be-1 fore. This item is to provide for telephone lines in some of the parks, and the making of trails and roads to facilitate the park wardens in getting over their territory and making contact with their central authorities as rapidly as possible. Some of these park areas, particularly at Banff and at Jasper, are very large. We are making every effort to conserve the game and the beauty of the parks. In the judgment of those responsible for the administration of the parks these amounts are necessary, and those responsible carry my judgment with them in that respect.


Richard Bedford Bennett: With respect to this particular matter I desire to make some observations, which I will make when the bill in respect to the Nova Scotia park is before the committee. I find it a little difficult to accommodate myself to the view that one should be called and the other not. I suppose the minister thinks he is following the

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words of Scripture, "the one shall be taken, and the other left." Just why New Brunswick should be left and Nova Scotia taken I find it difficult to understand, except that when I look around on the Nova Scotia members,
I realize that they are more insistent as supporters of the administration than are my New Brunswick colleagues in their attitude towards this matter.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I assure the right hon. leader of the opposition that he is quite mistaken. Of course I did not find any opposition to this park among hon. members from Nova Scotia. And I found a good deal of support from New Brunswick. But the fact is as I have stated. I have not the necessary information definitely to reach a judgment as to the best location in that province; that will have to be determined this summer. As I stated a moment ago, if our financial circumstances warrant-and I think perhaps they will-there will be provision for a park in New Brunswick next year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forest service-development of experimental stations and forestry research, $75,000.
Grote Stirling: Is this with regard to national parks only, or generally in Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is general.


Grote Stirling: Could the minister give us some information in regard to the disease which is attacking the tamarack?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have quite a number of these forest experimental stations development of which was really started for us by the National Defence department in connection with the relief camps. That work, of course, is important, but probably it might not be undertaken now if a start had not already been made. The nature of the work is the study of the rate of growth and the conditions under which growth takes place, and generally the application of scientific principles to afforestation and reforestation.


Grote Stirling: Has this only sprung
up consequent upon the relief work? I thought it existed long before.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some of it is the completion of works already started at these stations under the relief administration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But part of this work,
such as the study of forestry conditions, was going on long years ago, as my hon. friend says. When, however, the natural resources were turned over to the provinces, and the remainder of the railway belt was handed
over to British Columbia, there was not the same activitiy in that direction as there had been. The first effort was to establish the time of maturity with respect to many kinds of forest trees, for instance how long it took the spruce to grow to a point where it was marketable either for pulpwood or lumber. That work went on many years ago; the commission on conservation had something to say about it. Then, for the reasons I have mentioned, the matter fell into disuse.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: All these stations, with
the exception of the one at Petawawa, were established since 1930. They include Val-cartier, Acadia, Duck Mountain and Kanan-askis. This vote is to complete some buildings that are now partly completed; to complete the building of roads and generally to equip the stations to carry on their work.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: How far does this service extend? Does it relate to one province or more?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It covers all the provinces, although there is not a station in each province. There is one at Petawawa on the Ottawa river, about one hundred miles away; one at Acadia, New Brunswick; one at Val-cartier, Quebec; one at Duck Mountain, Manitoba, to cover the prairie provinces, and one at Kananaskis on the east slope of the rookies.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Topographical and air surveys bureau- ground and aerial surveys and mapping, $20,000.
Grote Stirling: Will the minister explain this item? This cannot be the total vote for topographical surveys.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is to assist in a survey of the boundary line between northern Ontario and Manitoba through an important mining area. The boundary line between Ontario and Manitoba is definitely established only as far as a point called Island Lake. We have offered to supply the umpire, and to assist in fixing the boundary line and to pay certain expenses. Then topographical survey work is to be done mapping areas where maps are required for development. The vote also covers the drawing and compiling of aerial maps of areas in which mineral development is taking place, and the making of base maps.


Richard Bedford Bennett: This item overlaps to some extent the work carried on by the Department of National Defence in mapping mineralized areas, does it not? I speak very frankly because I know my own difficulties over this duplication of work and the effort
3230	COMMONS
Supply-Interior-Topographical Surveys
that was made to prevent duplication, something which is not easy to do. I suggest that this item will stand perhaps the minister's personal consideration and scrutiny because there is a tendency to duplicate effort. In the parks this should not be so because the mineral areas in them are so separate and distinct from mineral areas in any other part of Canada. We have imposed such restrictions in the parks as to working for minerals that it is a little difficult for me to understand why we should make more readily available knowledge which might encourage people to do what on the other hand we are taking steps to prevent.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is not in the parks area.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, but I am speaking about the parks. Certain work of that kind has been done; we find both the Department of Interior and the Department of National Defence doing the same work, and it is necessary to be very careful to avoid a duplication of effort.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am aware of the difficulty the leader of the opposition has indicated, and in arranging this work I think every effort has been made to avoid duplication and to get the most useful and efficient results from the expenditure.


Mr. HEAPS:: How many men does the department expect to employ on survey work this summer? I understand a large number of university students are to be engaged in survey work in the ensuing months. Can the minister give any information as to the number, and, second, has he had any difficulty in securing sufficient help for the class of work that has to be done?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can assure my hon. friend
that there has been no difficulty in getting sufficient help. But the point my hon. friend raises probably comes under a different vote in the mines branch, and when that vote is before the committee I shall be in a position to give him the information he seeks. This is a vote for the Topographical surveys branch of the Department of the Interior.


Mr. HANSON:: What about topographical mapping in British Columbia this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am not in a position to tell my hon. friend just where the work will be carried on in British Columbia, but there will be work carried on there to an expenditure of a little over S5,000.


Olof Hanson: The reason I asked is because in that province there are areas which have not been linked up by survey mapping.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Water power and hydrometric bureau- international gauging station on the Columbia river near Birchbank, B.C., $10,375.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the United States government also subscribe to similar work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, on their side of the international boundary. We do the work on the Canadian side, and they do it on the American side.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Have they a survey station close to the international boundary, and have we one close to the international boundary?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that they have a station quite close to the international boundary. This work is carried on in cooperation with the United States government.


John Ritchie MacNicol: That is what prompted my question. I was wondering whether there were two stations close to the international boundary doing the same work.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can assure my hon. friend that is not the case.


Grote Stirling: Will this supply a considerable quantity of work to those in need of relief?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This work will be done by contract. I am unable at the moment to say to how many persons it will afford relief.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 62, for the relief of Pedro Alfonso Baptista.-Mr. Jacobs.
Bill No. 63, for the relief of Louise Isabel Sutherland Chaplin.-Mr. Walsh.
Bill No. 64, for the relief of Clara Violetta Dodge Connolly.-Mr. Heaps.
Bill No. 65, for the relief of Marie Con-suela Hill Montabone.-Mr. Bothwell.
Bill No. 66, for the relief of Lona Marie Vaughan Burnett Gravina.-Mr. White.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 59, respecting Thousand Islands Bridge Company -Mr. Stewart-Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.
Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.

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On the preamble.
Abraham Albert Heaps: I should like to ask if this
bill contains a provision with respect to fair wages. I do not want to delay the passage of the bill, but I want to say that in previous bills of this kind there has always been inserted a clause providing that fair wages shall be paid, as well as a clause providing for the purchase of goods in Canada. If there is no similar provision in this bill I think it should stand over.


Mr. BARBER:: This bill was before the
private bills committee; it was gone into by that committee and approved.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This bill was considered
by the private bills committee and I understand it is the custom of the house to accept their report.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I do not think we can always go on the assumption that because a bill has been reported from a committee we are bound ipso facto to accept the bill in toto. The minister will remember that when bills of a similar kind were before this house a clause providing for the payment of fair wages was inserted.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is a general statute. Mr. HEAPS:	This is not public works;
this is a private corporation. I do not think any harm would be done by having the bill stand over until Tuesday of next week in order that this omission might be rectified. I can assure the minister that a similar clause was inserted in previous bills.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The hon. member who is
sponsoring this bill is not in the chamber to-night and we on this side have no objection to allowing the bill to stand until next Tuesday.
Progress reported.



SECOND READINGS

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 72, for the relief of Madeleine St. Clair Peacock Milroy.-Mr. Plaxton.
Bill No. 73, for the relief of Bella or Bessie Laurie Wozik, otherwise known as Bella or Bessie Laurie Rabinovitch.-Mr. Jacobs.
Bill No. 74, for the relief of Agnes Hannah Wright.-Mr. Heaps.
[Stage Direction]
The house resumed in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston (Lake Centre) in the chair.

[Stage Direction]
Projects already undertaken-for geological surveys and investigations in the Northwest Territories and elsewhere in Canada-including amount required to prepare, publish and distribute results of field investigations of 1935, $150,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: What has been done so far under this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is really the unexpended portion of the $1,000,000 vote of last year which was allowed to lapse at the end of March. It is to complete the preparation of data and the compilation and publication of reports.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Other projects-to continue geological surveys and investigations in the Northwest Territories and elsewhere in Canada, uncompleted in 1935, $200,000.
John Ritchie MacNicol: Why is this item not taken in conjunction with the previous one?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The explanation is contained in the statement I made a moment ago. The first item is to complete the work which was undertaken last year under the special vote of $1,000,000 appropriated by parliament a year ago. The reports have not all been compiled. The preparation and compilation will have to be completed, and these reports, based upon the work done a year ago, have in the main to be published. The second vote is for geological surveys and investigations in the areas mentioned in the estimate, and that will be undertaken this year.


John Ritchie MacNicol: It says, "uncompleted in 1935."


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is the field program which was undertaken in 1935, and which was not completed. According to the information supplied me, the work was mapped out in the field, covering very large areas, but it was not all completed. All the reports covering the work that was finished must of course be published, and that is why the first vote was required.


Mr. REID:: Are surveys carried out in the coastal regions, in inlets and bays?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; that is not covered by this vote. This has reference to the parties that explore the geology of the country in areas which are believed to be mineral-bearing.


Mr. GRAYDON:: Have the appointments to the personnel of the geological survey parties which will be sent out this year been completed yet?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They have been practically completed. That is covered not only by this vote but also by the vote in the main estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
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[Stage Direction]
To assist in provision of transportation facilities into mining areas, $1,500,000.
Harry James Barber: Can the minister give some particulars?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The purpose of this vote is, as stated, to assist in the provision of transportation facilities into mining areas. Within the last five years there has been a notable extension of prospecting, exploration work, and the development of new mines. In that period, for instance, mines have developed in the Great Bear lake area, away up on the rim of the arctic circle, where they are producing silver and radium. I believe there are three small mines operating in that area. Transportation costs amount to $140 a ton from the end of the railway at Waterways in northern Alberta. In the Central Patricia area there are two mines operating over 100 miles from the railway, producing gold to a value of approximately $250,000 a month. My information is that their freight costs from the railway line to their mines are about sixty dollars per ton. Instances of a similar kind could be multiplied, although perhaps not to the extent of the same cost as far as other mines are concerned. The purpose of this vote is to help reduce, where possible, those costs. It is also intended to use a part of it in opening up new areas. For instance, in British Columbia, north of Prince George, there is an area known as Manson Creek. Quite obviously it is out of the question to build a railroad into that area, but we propose to assist in the construction of a motor truck road to it that will enable the people who are operating there to bring in their supplies and to do their business more economically, from the point of view of freight costs, than they are doing at present. I expect that, as a result of this, there will be a stimulation of development in many areas of Canada.
We have not as yet quite determined how the vote will be divided so far as the provinces are concerned. I have discussed the matter with representatives from all the metal mining provinces and suggested to them that the provinces should put up one-third and ourselves two-thirds; that is, for every two dollars we put up the provinces put up one dollar; and they have agreed, without exception, to that suggestion. In the result there will be available altogether, between what the provinces supply and what the federal government is providing under this vote, something over two million dollars. In selecting the areas that will be assisted we have consulted with the provinces. We do not propose to spend any of this money in
[Mr. Crerar.l
building roads to a prospect where some person thinks he has a mine; there must be reasonably evidence that there may be a mine there. In many cases we know the mines are there, because they are producing, and as far as one can judge now, some have a promising future. Approximately it will probably work out in this way, that British Columbia will get about $300,000 of this fund; Alberta, a comparatively small amount, because there is as yet no metal mining in that province, but there is some work to be done.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How much?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I said, a comparatively small amount. As yet there is so far as I know, no metal mining in Alberta. But the waterways into the great northern hinterland, pass through the northern part of Alberta to this area at lake Athabaska, where a mill is being established; to Great Slave lake, where drilling operations are going on, and then to the region up in the Great Bear lake area. Freight for each of these points is moving to Waterways at the end of the steel in Alberta, and by water transportation from there on. In many cases there are portages which are extensive, where freight has to be unloaded, and reloaded again after the portage is crossed. An examination is being made to see what assistance can be given there with a view of reducing the cost of transportation. That principle will apply all the way through. Manitoba will probably get between $260,000 and $270,000; Ontario, probably $325,000 to $400,000, and a somewhat smaller amount for Quebec. Roughly, that is the classification of this vote. I wish to make it clear to the committee that so far these arrangements are only tentative; they are not completed. I think the vote will be of considerable assistance. I hope a little later, when we come to our main estimates, to give the committee some information as to the development which has taken place in mining in Canada during recent years.


Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: The minister has not mentioned Saskatchewan.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: For Saskatchewan, I should say, probably about $80,000 to $90,000.


Harry James Barber: This appears to be a
relief vote; I suppose that is what it is. I understand that it is under relief measures or that the work is to be done along with relief measures. The minister said a minute ago that the provinces would contribute. I can quite understand that the Northwest Territories will not contribute. He stated

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*

that about 8300.000 might go to British Columbia. How much will the provincial government be expected to contribute before the dominion undertakes any work in British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: One dollar for two, I said.


Harry James Barber: $150,000?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They would put up approximately $150,000.


Mr. McCANN:: Who has the actual
administration of the money-the province or the federal government?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should have explained
that to the committee. We propose to make arrangements for the provinces to supervise the expenditure of the money. I certainly do not desire to set up any road building organization in the Department of Mines; neither does the Labour department wish to do that; but the matter will be worked out on the projects that are agreed upon between the provinces and the federal government. The federal government will reserve the right ,o inspect the work as it is progressing, ind the payments will be made under agreement as the work is completed, or, possibly, as it progresses. That, I think, is the most economical manner in which to make the expenditure.


James Joseph McCann: Will the provinces determine the policy with reference to the locations?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should say that they
will be determined as a matter of agreement between the department of mines of each of the provinces and the federal Department of Mines. So far as I am aware the matter of doing the work will be under the highways department in each of the provinces.


James Joseph McCann: Will these projects be let
by contract, or will they be done by day labour?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should think in the main they would be let by contract. That point has not been discussed. There are some instances where it may be difficult to let them by contract. If you are clearing up the work on some portage, or building a small wharf on some water course, it may be difficult to get a contract placed for that particular work, but I should think that in the main the work will be done by contract.


James Joseph McCann: Will any of this appropriation go as a subsidy to aeroplane companies that are carrying freight?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That has not been contemplated and has not been suggested.


Mr. FAIR:: Will the minister state approximately what amount will be allowed for Alberta?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the moment I cannot give my hon. friend that information. It is difficult to get details of the work which requires to be done in Alberta, but it will be only in the northern part, in connection with cheapening as far as possible the means of transportation on these waterways.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No item in the estimates has caused more unfavourable discussion than this, for reasons that I think the minister must easily appreciate. In the first place, except in the Northwest Territories, any work done on a highway to improve transportation, means work done upon roads entirely under the control of the provinces. No federal money can be expended by the federal government on a provincial highway or transportation road or colonization road without the consent and approval of the provincial authorities. The principle that is to govern should not be unlike that which governed an appropriation of several million dollars for the construction of roads many years ago. That money was divided among the provinces on the basis of population. It will be recalled that at that time the senate insisted that this should be done, and on the part of the then Liberal opposition there was a great deal of discussion and, frankly, some opposition to the proposal to utilize federal money for the purpose of improving highways in provinces. That opposition was overcome by the method I have indicated, namely a division of the money on the basis of population. A standard type of road was agreed upon, and the work was done under the inspection and, shall we say, the general supervision of the late Mr. Campbell, who represented the federal power.
This is an appropriation of $1,500,000 to be expended on the improvement of transportation to mining claims in every part of Canada. There are still some mining claims left in Nova Scotia, for instance, in connection with some minerals other than coal that are being sought for there. The disaster about which we were all so much concerned recently had to do with an old gold mine that was being exploited. In New Brunswick there are still some mining claims left, though comparatively few. In Quebec there are the great northern areas where the general formation is similar to that of northern Ontario, and it is proposed to divert the same sum
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of money to each province for the improvement of transportation.
When I asked what principle was to govern, the minister said that the money would not be spent to improve transportation to what a man might think was a mine. But if geology is a science, as it is, and if the reports of those who have made surveys of the territory are worth attention, it should not be a case of what a man thinks. I had concluded that the minister would say that this money would be used to enable promising areas to be prospected, because if the mines have come into production they do not require much assistance in the construction of roads. By reason of the fact that mines are producing, they have ample money with which to provide transportation to the markets for their products; they have ample money with which to carry on their operations. That is not the case, however, with a great area which has been, shall I say, closely investigated by geologists in the manner in which that is done nowadays, and which is very interesting even to read about. When an area is regarded by geologists as being promising then it is of first importance to get diamond drills and other necessary equipment into that area, and in that case some expenditure is required to be made to enable transportation to be carried on.
From what has been said by the minister I gather that this is not what is intended. I repeat that a mine already in production does not require very much assistance. If it is producing even' two or three days a block of gold worth $25,000, $30,000 or more, it does not require much help in order to provide transportation. I thought the minister was going to say that this money would be spent in order to encourage the development of the mineral areas. Certainly the amount of $1,000,000 which was appropriated by parliament last year to enable investigations to be undertaken had behind it the idea that we would become familiar with geological conditions and the extent to which work might be carried on in given areas for the purpose of securing valuable metals through the development that was to go forward. Until the minister spoke I had certainly concluded that this, in a sense, was to be supplementary to what was done last year, so that areas of promise would be made possible of development by reason of these expenditures, in cooperation with the provinces, to enable the transportation of supplies to be carried on. The hon. member for Renfrew South spoke of aeroplanes being used for the transportation of supplies. In the Northwest Territories,

which are completely under the jurisdiction of this government, every dollar of this sum could be spent and still it would not meet the requirements, so difficult is transportation into that area.
The minister knows that we have spent a considerable sum of money in providing radio stations for the purpose of enabling news to be sent into and out of those areas, and although it has been very expensive we have endeavoured to do something in the Great Bear lake and Slave lake regions. Both of those mineral areas are in the Northwest Territories, if I am correctly informed, and I would think it desirable that as much money as possible should be spent there, where we have no province with which to cooperate or consult, where we own the highways and everything else. It occurred to me that the minister might say that a good deal of this money would be spent there, where any revenues, royalties or fees come to us and not to any province. We have supreme and complete control over that area, which contains pitchblende, copper and some promises of gold. I do not know that the gold deposits have been developed to any considerable extent, but certainly other minerals have been reported there. I was surprised at the small sum the minister mentioned as having in mind to be expended in the Northwest Territories. If he will look at Hansard to-morrow he will see that it would appear that this money is to be used on behalf of those who least require it and not in aid of those who most need it, and when I say that I mean those who as yet have not been able to demonstrate that a given area will be productive, those in territories that geology, which is a fairly exact science, has indicated might contain gold-bearing rock or quartz. It is in such territories that one would expect at least a good share of this money to be expended in order to make transportation feasible.
I have nothing to say with respect to the situation in Alberta. There is very little in the way of mineral deposits in southern Alberta, though, of course, in that province they have the fields where they have been prospecting for oil, -which is almost as important as minerals from the standpoint of the immediate production of new wealth, and I suppose these petroleum products might, in a sense, foe classed as mineral wealth. In the northern part of the province, however, bordering on the Northwest Territories, as the minister has said the waterways require some attention. I had hoped that in connection with those great Northwest Territories, where

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last year considerable geological work was done and where every promise was found of rich deposits of valuable minerals, the minister would say there is a duty devolving upon us, for we are both the province and the dominion as far as those territories are concerned. Wherever there is a possibility-and I do not want to use that word in too narrow a sense-or, we shall say, a geological probability of there being valuable mineral deposits, as far as we can we should use this money for the purpose of making it possible to have those deposits developed.
It would seem to me to be a very great mistake to leave entirely in the hands of the provinces the selection of those on whose behalf and for whose benefit this money should be expended. On the other hand, of course, we cannot expend any money in this way without the consent of the provinces; that is obvious, and therefore there must be cooperation between the provinces and the dominion. The extent to which that cooperation will be given will depend entirely, it seems to me, upon the view the provinces may take as to the desirability of this or that area being assisted in the way of transportation facilities. If an agreement cannot be reached, then I suggest that the money should be expended where I expected the minister would spend most of it, namely in the area where there is no province, no government except our own, nobody to receive any benefit except the people of Canada who derive the whole benefit, both in respect of any income the companies may secure and in royalties that may become payable on the minerals taken out. I cannot say that I congratulate the minister upon the method he proposes to adopt, because I cannot help thinking it will bring him a good deal of difficulty, and in' the end the money will be frittered away without any corresponding advantage.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think my right hon. friend need not have the fears that he has just expressed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have heard a good deal
about this vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have, too, heard a great deal that is favourable.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have heard a great deal that is favourable for one or two people.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As far as the Northwest Territories are concerned, to get back to the Great Slave lake and Great Bear lake region, practically all the expenditure that has to be made in order to give transportation into those areas has to be made in Alberta.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You cross the boundary line and get to where you leave the river, and then you have to get to where the claims are located. On Great Bear lake you go by water.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: For instance, on Great Slave lake, which is wholly in the territories, the mining claims that have been prospected and explored are on the north shore.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And that is so because prospectors cannot get into the other parts of the area at present by reason of bad transportation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They get to lake Athabaska by the river from Fort McMurray. One of the chief difficulties of transportation into that north country is the stretch of river for six miles north of Fort McMurray. In low water the boats cannot get up to rail head. We do not propose to undertake any work this year by way of deepening the river.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is there not a small item in the main estimates for that?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There may be for investigation, but deepening the river would involve blasting rock out of the river bed. The solution of the problem is probably either a motor road for six miles from Fort McMurray to a point where the boats can take their freight-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Or an extension of the railway.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Or an extension of the railway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Both expensive.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is partly within the Northwest Territories one other portage on which some work will be done, and indeed some has been done. To-day a private company has the privilege of carrying freight over that portage.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They get how many cents a pound?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They get a good rate; I have forgotten what it is.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is a very large figure.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Of course this is in the north country.
To come to another point, the assistance is not alone for mines that are developed. It may be a nice question to what extent a company producing, say gold, should pay the expense of providing the highway or railway to the mine. For instance, there are at present two mines working in the Central Patricia area. The likelihood is that within twelve months another mine will start operations;
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that is, steps will be taken to get in mill machinery and the equipment and accessories necessary for the successful operation of a mine. If the first mine there builds the road in, the second mine is at the mercy of the first. Consequently the highway should be in the nature of a public highway.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The province has control of that though.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Quite so. I fancy, however, that if the mine which commenced operations had the responsibility placed upon it of building the road, at a cost of, say, $100,000, it would not undertake that work unless it had some way of collecting tolls from others using the road. This brings up the question of the regulation of those tolls. That is largely a new principle in the development of the country. We are applying here a principle which has always been applied.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is it not a very old one? Long before confederation they had toll roads.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This work will be done
in conjunction with the provinces under agreements. My right hon. friend when he was Prime Minister made agreements with several of the provinces for work on roads. That was done, for instance, in Manitoba in 1936; there were definite agreements covering the work. That did not commit the federal government to the principle of building roads in Manitoba.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No; those were existing
highways.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In some cases they were
not


Richard Bedford Bennett: All of them were, I think.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. There were one or
two cases where a road might be called a highway, but it was only a rough wagon road.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does the minister mean the one in the park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The one in the park and
the one from Dauphin to Winnipegosis. The point I am making is that my right hon. friend adopted that principle. What we are doing is precisely the same thing. We go to the province and make an agreement in respect to a mining road, after we have mutually decided where one should be built. The province bears one-third of the cost; we bear two-thirds; they agree to maintain the road and to bear all the expense of engineering and supervision. That is to be

covered by the agreement just the same as the Russell-Clear lake road in Manitoba a year ago, or the one from Dauphin to Winnipegosis.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Or the road running
south.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.	We are following
under this vote precisely the same principle and the same practice as were followed then. Now the advisability, the wisdom of this expenditure might be questioned. Personally I think it will be money well spent. The increase in mineral production in recent years has been phenomenal. I shall give some figures on that when I come to the main estimates. What is expected from this vote, and what I think will certainly ensue, is a stimulation and aid to the development and production of a great deal of real wealth. That is the purpose. The problem of the expenditure of the money will be studied, is being studied with the provincial departments of mines. They canot say, as my right hon. friend hinted, where this money will be spent; that has to be agreed upon between the two governments. We shall use our best judgment in deciding where the expenditure will produce the best results. As far as the vote itself is concerned I have had a good deal of commendation for this step having been taken, and so far no criticism. The only criticism that I anticipated is that the vote is not nearly large enough. There are a great many cases where the people think they need assistance; many of them do need it, but broadly speaking what we propose to do is to spend the money so that in the years to come we shall get the greatest possible results from it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am bound to say
that my hon. friend the minister did not quite follow me. I am certainly fully aware of all the agreements made between provinces and the dominion, and I was not in any sense taking exception to the good example given by the late government being followed by the present administration, in this as in many other things. What I was endeavouring to direct attention to is that the principle adopted in determining what mines should receive the benefit of the vote is a principle with which I could hardly agree, because it does not touch what I conceive to be the general idea underlying the policy of the government in making this grant, namely, to secure further development, and the creation of more new wealth. I was suggesting that that result be brought about by utilizing the geological surveys and determining with the cooperation of the provinces

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what areas would likely be benefited by development; that is, where it would be probable that suitable returns and probably a mine would result from the efforts which might be made in that territory. I thought the money would be used in such areas rather than where established mines already exist. On the other hand, if this is merely for assisting the provinces to provide transportation to known mines, then, of course, it is nothing more or less than the application of the general principle that has been applied during the last three or four years with respect to such highways as the minister mentioned, such as there are, for instance, in Saskatchewan extending west, and in Alberta and other parts of the western provinces. My anxiety was to ascertain the general principle that was to govern. I was approaching the matter from the standpoint of the money being utilized to assist in the development of new areas and the production of new work rather than for the purpose of providing better transportation facilities in areas where it had already been demonstrated that satisfactory results had followed the efforts which had been made to establish mines. The latter view, of course, can be supported, but I had assumed the other view, that a province being unable to undertake an exploratory road, the dominion had said:	We
realize that any new wealth you develop will be to our benefit as well as to yours, and we shall therefore assist you in territory that our department and your own geologists believe to be promising. But, as I say, the view which the minister has put forward can be supported on the general principle that, wealth having been discovered, it is the duty of the state to endeavour to make it available. That is the general principle you would be following if you are going to use the money in territories already developed.


Mr. KIRK:: The minister made no reference to any amount being set aside for Nova Scotia or the maritime provinces generally, and I was wondering whether it was his opinion that they did not need any assistance. In the county of Antigonish-Guysborough which I represent there has been considerable gold mining activity recently, and I have no doubt many companies there would be glad of assistance. The government that was in power in Ottawa started in 1928 and 1929 to build the Guysborough railway, which would have been of considerable assistance to the people there, but in 1931 the government under the present leader of the opposition did not see fit to continue the construction of that road. I would ask the minister if Nova Scotia and the maritime provinces generally will receive consideration under this vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some consideration has
been given to that question, but transportation costs to the mines in Nova Scotia to-day are relatively low, whereas in British Columbia, for example, there are mining areas that are from fifty to seventy-five or even one hundred miles away from a railway and are without roads, yet they are producing placer gold and have indicated that they can develop others. Obviously it is at just such points that assistance is needed rather than where transportation costs are at present relatively low. The same argument would apply to New Brunswick, where I understand there are no metal mines. I hope that one day there will be a revival of the gold mining industry in Nova Scotia. Without doubt the increase in the price of gold has helped the gold mining industry of that province. On the other hand, many of the mines to which I have referred to-night are large potential producers situated in favourable areas. I might mention again the Central Patricia region which affords a splendid illustration. Two mines there are now producing approximately one-quarter of a million dollars worth of gold a month, and it is costing them $60 a ton to get their freight in. Should either of those mines have a major break in its equipment it would be tied up for six months unless the replacements could be carried in by aeroplane. Conditions of that sort we are seeking to overcome, and if we could get a road into that region or assist in cheapening transportation costs into it, the likelihood is that within the next twelve or eighteen months there might be three or four more mines in that area. It is with the idea of stimulating such developments as rapidly as possible that this vote is placed before the committee.


Mr. DONNELLY:: What about a mine that is a paying proposition? Does the government build a road into an area where there is a paying mine, or does the mine or the province put up a certain portion of the costs, or just what arrangement is made in building a road under those conditions? Is it built under the plan of two-thirds of the cost being met by the dominion government and one-third by the province, or do the mines themselves that are paying producers pay any portion of the cost of building the road?
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Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not contemplated that the mines would pay any portion of the cost, because such mines have spent a great deal of money in providing present transportation facilities. I have in mind, for instance, a mine north of Port Arthur producing chromium ore. They nave to transport that ore twenty-five miles to the railway. That mine supplies a great deal of freight to the Canadian National Railways every year, and the industry is still only in its infancy. Probably we shall provide
S5,000	or $10,000 to help gravel their road.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines branch-for investigations of mineral resources and deposits; of the mining and metallurgical industries, and of mineral technology; wages, and expenses of testing and research laboratories; for publications, English and French; for purchase of books and instruments; for miscellaneous assistance and contingencies; and for investigations by the Dominion fuel board, including salaries and all other expenses, $250,000.
Mr. CRERAR; I think it might be interesting to the committee if I gave a survey- and I shall make it as brief as possible-of some of the facts that indicate the value of the mining industry to this country. It is interesting in an historical sense to note that the first suggestion for making a geological survey was made in Upper Canada about one hundred years ago, in 1836, and the motion asking that a small amount of money be appropriated for that survey was moved by a gentleman who afterwards acquired a great deal of publicity, William Lyon Mackenzie. In the political troubles which followed, prosecution of the work was lost sight of until after the union of Upper and Lower Canada, and then in 1841, as a result of suggestions made by the National Historical Society of Montreal and the Historical Society of Quebec, a resolution was passed appropriating £1,500 for the purpose of causing a geological survey to be made of the province of Canada. The expenditure of this money was entrusted to William Logan, who later became Sir William Logan, and who was for some years the head of the geological survey. Later on, in 1855, a further appropriation of $20,000 annually was made, and $8,000 was set aside for the publication of the results of Logan's explorations. It is an interesting fact to note that his work was so thoroughly done that where he reported favourable geological formations in areas in Ontario and Quebec our great metal mining development has since taken place.
Mr. BENNETT; And in British Columbia too, later on.
(Mr. Donnelly.]
Thomas Alexander Crerar: That publication was given to the public in 1866, and along with it a geological map was published. However the mining, industry did not attract a great deal of attention in Canada, and it was not until 1907 that the Geology and Mines Act was passed and a definite effort made to bring about development work. The work done by the mines department falls into four divisions. First, there is the geological survey, which covers the sending of survey parties to the field to search for favourable formations. Second, there is the ore dressing and metallurgical plant on the outskirts of the city. Third, there is the division for testing fuels, oils and coals. Fourth, there is the division of ceramics where a study is made in the use of the various clays to be found in Canada.
The work of the ore dressing plant particularly has attracted international attention. When the Ottawa conference was held in 1932 it was attended by the Premier of Southern Rhodesia. Southern Rhodesia has large mining possibilities, but the ores there are of a complex type and prior to that time they had been unsuccessful in discovering a proper method of treatment. As a result of inquiries made here and an examination of the ore dressing division of the mines branch, two tons of ore were shipped to Ottawa and the officers of the division worked out a treatment for the ore. Many of the mines in Canada have testified to the useful assistance given by this division. I mention this merely to indicate to the committee that the mines branch is performing a very useful service for the country.
If the committee would bear with me I should like to give a few figures indicating the growth of the mining industry in Canada. In 1901 the value of the metals produced in Canada was approximately $25,000,000. In 1935 this had grown to over $220,000,000. Of this latter figure, $116,000,000 was gold, $88,000,000 was base metals and the balance was made up of various precious metals, such as silver, platinum and other metals found in small quantities in some of our larger mines. It may be of interest to the committee to know that in January, February and March of this year our gold production exceeded the production of the corresponding months in 1935 by 174 per cent. The total value of all mineral production in Canada in 1935 was $310,000,000.
The contribution made by the mining industry to the railways of Canada is considerable. I was surprised when I noticed a statement by the president of the Canadian:

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Bank of Commerce in the annual report of that bank to the effect that the mining industry contributed practically one-third of the total freight handled by the Canadian railways in 1935. I had these figures checked and I found they were correct, according to the information in the possession of the bureau of statistics.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is directly and indirectly.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That includes ores, coal, stone, gravel and everything that is classed as minerals in the records of the bureau. In 1935 the Noranda mine paid over $1,000,000 in freight. Ten years ago there was not one dollar's worth of freight originating in that area. Hudson, which is on the Canadian National Railways on the way to Winnipeg, produced no freight ten years ago, but in 1934 the freight receipts from Hudson totalled $232,000. In 1935 the freight receipts from Ilford on the Hudson Bay railway, 286 miles north of Le Pas, in the distant northern part of Manitoba, totalled $150,000. The freight receipts directly and indirectly from the Flin-Flon mine of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company in northern Manitoba totalled $1,302,000 in 1935, Consolidated Smelters have contributed in freight payments an average of $4,000,000 per annum during the last ten years.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That would include ore from the Sullivan mine at Trail?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is the total freight contribution of the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company.


Howard Charles Green: Is that $4,000,000 per annum?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is the yearly average for the last ten years. The International Nickel Company pay over $1,000,000 per month in wages. The Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company have paid over $76,000,000 in wages in the last ten years. Since 1911 the Hollinger mine has paid over $79,000,000 in wages. In 1935 the mining industry as a whole contributed $88,000,000 in wages.
In connection with supplies we find that in 1934 heavy mining machinery, practically all of Canadian origin, was purchased to the extent of $6,500,000. Purchases of lighter equipment, such as rock drills, pipes and fittings and so on, amounted to $3,250,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Did the minister say that was practically all Canadian production?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Practically all of Canadian origin. In fact, practically all mining supplies are of Canadian origin with the exception of certain chemicals which cannot be secured in Canada.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Drills are now being made in Canada as a result of the tariff policy of the late government.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Electrical equipment to
the extent of $2,125,000 was purchased. As an illustration of the value of this industry in another field, the mining region round Sudbury used over 40 million feet of lumber in 1935, and I am told that over eighty per cent of this came from British Columbia. In the way of foodstuffs the mining industry consumed last year 38,000,000 pounds of meats, 7,500,000 pounds of lard; 7,500,000 dozen eggs; 11,000.000 pounds of butter;
7.500.000	pounds of cheese; 760,000 sacks of flour; 114,000,000 pounds of potatoes, or
57.000 tons, and there were	over 100,000 pounds of turkeys shipped from the western provinces into the Porcupine and K-irkland lake area.
I venture to say that very few people in Canada appreciate fully the very great heritage we have in the mineral wealth of the country. It extends practically from Labrador round the south shore of Hudson bay, swinging north to the arctic circle, east of the Mackenzie river; and so far as our geological information goes we may expect to find mineralized areas, some of them rich, over that vast extent of territory. I do not think it is an impossible dream that we can within the next five or ten years increase by fifty or probably seventy-five per cent our metal production in Canada, and I know of nothing that will contribute so much to placing this country in the way of permanent national recovery as the sound development of our mining industry. I apologize for taking up the time of the committee in supplying it with some of these facts, but I thought it might be of interest to hon. members in the consideration of these particular estimates.


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am very much interested in what the minister has said. Most of his remarks were confined to the precious metals, but I should like to say a word in regard to the baser metals, particularly iron. The minister spoke of mineral development either having been recommended or having commenced in Ontario about 1836. The iron industry in Ontario commenced about 1815. I am not sure of the exact date, but I believe the first development took place near
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the west boundary of the present county of Lanark, though they did not begin to smelt there at that time. The first place in which iron ore was smelted in Ontario was at the ancient village-there is still a cluster of cottages in the locality-of Normandale, founded by one of the early pioneering families, Van Norman, of the province. I have always been interested in the iron industry, and for some time past I have been trying to dig into the early history of iron production in Ontario, which is not known to many people in Ontario, and certainly not to the people at large throughout Canada. It is not generally known that our first real iron industry in Ontario began at Normandale. The ore was what was known as bog ore. During the last couple of years I have covered the district many times and have been intending to get into touch with the Department of Mines to find out whether it is possible that there may still be some ore there, because at one time there was quite a pocket in the county of Norfolk, about seven miles north of the present site of Normandale. Later, after that ore became exhausted in Norfolk, a considerable pocket was found in the adjacent county of Elgin. Two others of our principal old pioneering families of Ontario were associated with this original Norfolk development of the iron industry in the province: a pioneer named Tillson, after whom the present Tillsonburg was named, in the riding of the hon. member for Oxford, and the Leonard family, who were also associated with the Van Normans, later established in London, where their descendants are still making the very good Leonard boilers. It is remarkable that at Normandale in those very early days, about 1820 or 1822 and prior to about 1848, they melted approximately 900 tons of iron a year, which they dug out of the swamps and bogs in that locality, a very fine iron. It was a soft iron and when smelted and poured it had to some extent the texture of what is now known as malleable iron; it would almost bend, and one characteristic was that it did not rust easily. Last summer I went into a wood just north of Normandale where I saw one of the old stoves made in Normandale, bearing the date 1845, and it had been in the farmer's back lot many years and showed no evidence of rust. I wonder if the department has ever made an investigation in that locality to see whether this ore is really extinct. The soil seems to me to be very much like the soil west of Duluth, where there are vast iron ore ranges.

I have often thought, in connection with the development of iron ore in Ontario, that if Ontario ore is suitable-and I am going to speak now of the ore in the vicinity of Sudbury; I believe it is what is called the Atikokan range-and if the government would produce the iron by smelting the ore by means of electricity, seeing that there is ample power there, and then dispose of it to the iron foundries in the province at cost, on the same basis that the hydro electric commission of Ontario delivers power to the factories in the province, the government could not do better to develop the iron industry in the province. Though, as I believe, ore was first smelted in Canada a few miles north of Three Rivers, I do not think there is any doubt that the iron industry in quantity really began in Ontario. If there is iron in the province and it can be economically developed, it would be a considerable boon to the great iron industry of Ontario, which is our basic industry next to agriculture. Agriculture comes first and then iron. At the moment, so far as I remember, no iron is produced in the province, although many long years ago, away back in the 1820's, as I have said, in that little village of Normandale, on the shores of lake Erie, they smelted 900 tons of bog ore a year. I once saw in one of the Toronto newspapers the reproduction of an advertisement that appeared in 1830, indicating that 1,000 stoves had been received from the Normandale foundry. It is interesting to know that so long ago in this province we did smelt iron ore in a village that has passed away. Four hundred men were engaged in fabricating iron in that industry.
I am glad to endorse whatever the minister can do to develop mining. What he has said as regards the development of mines in this country, and their tremendous importance to Canada, is perfectly true, and it is all new money. If there is iron in Ontario, even in those places where it is now supposed to be extinct, and if iron can be produced in this province, the government should do whatever it can to assist in the development of the industry. It would result in a good deal of employment in Ontario factories.


Mr. MACDONALD (Brantford):: As my hon. friend from Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) has told us something of the families originally settled in Normandale, I should like to inform him and the other members of the committee that the Van Normans came to the city of Brantford and associated themselves with the Watrous family, and the Watrous family established what was known as the Watrous Engine Works and is now known as Watrous Limited. I mention this that the committee

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may know that it is Watrous Limited of Brantford which manufactures a great deal of the mining machinery that is not now used in Norfolk, but is used in northern Ontario and all parts of Canada.


Abraham Albert Heaps: This afternoon I asked certain questions of the minister with reference to the number of persons likely to be employed as a result of this vote and other votes of a like kind. Perhaps the minister now has the information and can give it to the committee.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total number of parties, as worked out to the present time by officers of the department, will be fifty-seven. There will be a total of 392 engaged in the work, or, including the chiefs of parties, 447.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I assume that most of the men who go on these parties will have had some technical training, probably in the universities. In spite of the fact that most of those young men will require a certain amount of training, has the minister had any difficulty in filling these vacancies?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No. I believe I intimated to my hon. friend this afternoon that there had not been any difficulty in filling the vacancies. These parties are staffed in the following way: There is a chief of the party. He has an assistant geologist, depending upon what particular field he is going to work in, and there are student assistants. These latter are selected from the various universities, from students who are taking up geology and mining engineering and are in their second, third or fourth year. They get their ratings through the civil service commission, and as a result of those ratings the commission give us a list from which the selections can be made. Then the selections are made on the ratings supplied by the commission. It is interesting to note, though it is not quite germane to the question my hon. friend has asked, that several of the universities of Canada are recognizing the importance of geological work and some of them are providing excellent courses. That is all to the good as far as this industry is concerned. I may be unduly optimistic, but I am of the opinion that, for the next ten or fifteen years at any rate, mining will be the large developing industry in this country. It is, if I may use the term, one of the coming industries for Canada during the next ten or fifteen years. We have to provide the technical men who are required, and it is a matter of satisfaction that bright young fellows are taking up the study of geology, mining engineering and electrical engineering. I have been told by some of the larger mining companies 12739-207
that they are experiencing some difficulty in getting technically trained men. The expansion of the industry in the last few years has been so rapid that the trained men graduating from the universities have had little difficulty in finding suitable work, and very often remunerative work, in this particular field of endeavour.


Ernest Edward Perley: (Qu'Appelle): How many of these parties will go into northern Saskatchewan, and how many young men are being accepted from the university of Saskatchewan?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There will be seven parties out in Saskatchewan. I am unable to give my hon. friend information as to the latter part of his question, but I am informed that as far as possible students were taken from Saskatchewan university, in some cases students who graduated within the last few years and who are resident in Saskatchewan. So far as possible that method has been followed in staffing these parties.


Howard Charles Green: How many parties will there be in British Columbia, and in what parts of the province?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There will be ten geological parties and six topographical parties in British Columbia. It will be of interest to the committee to know that so far as Manitoba and British Columbia are concerned, under arrangements made, I think, at the time those provinces came into confederation the federal government has to carry on the geological survey work of those provinces.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is in the British North America Act.


Howard Charles Green: Can the minister say to
which parts of British Columbia they are going?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There will be two parties in the Manson Creek area, that is about a hundred miles north and a little west of Prince George; there will be two parties in the Hazelton area; there will be another party working along the line of the Canadian National east of Prince Rupert; there is a party at Smithers; two parties in the Fort Fraser area; two parties in Keithley Creek and the Cariboo mountain; a party at Greenwood; a party at Tyaughton lake; two parties in the Nelson country, and another one in the Kettle river country.


Harry James Barber: There are two items, 153 and 154. No. 153 does not, I take it, provide for field work; No. 154 provides for that. I

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notice that in each is included publications, purchase of books and instruments. Would the minister explain the difference in these two items?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have really been discussing pretty much item 154.


Harry James Barber: We are still on 153, I think.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Item 153 is for investigation of mineral resources and deposits, and so forth. It has to do largely with the investigational work that is done in the ore testing, ceramics and fuel-testing laboratories in Ottawa. This vote is to cover the expense incidental to that work, and also the purchase of equipment which may be necessary and the publications of the results of those investigations. I may say that we get requests from many parts of the world for these publications.


Harry James Barber: The extra vote is to take rare of that expense?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, vote No. 153 covers that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the committee
must be under a sense of obligation to the minister for the very frank and interesting statement he has made as to the development of our mining industry. I have read some of the addresses he made over the radio; I heard one of them, and I realize that the industry has become very important. But there are one or two observations I should like to make, not in any critical sense, but rather, I hope, in a way that will be helpful to the minister in dealing with some of the problems which he has to meet.
In the first place I think it highly undesirable that there should be duplication of effort. We have a national research bureau; we also have this research bureau for mines. And it must be remembered that outside the Northwest Territories we have not the remotest interest in these mines except as mining corporations may pay us taxes. There was a time when the crown in the right of the dominion had a direct interest in some of these mineral areas, but outside the Northwest Territories we now have none. One of the problems that every government in this country will have to face is the extent to which the federal power shall maintain facilities that are used by industries over which the provincial power has complete control in the matter of royalties and in the determination of the terms and conditions under which the industry shall be carried on. I found, as undoubtedly the minister has found, that the maintenance of this mines branch and this

research bureau was in effect the maintenance of an organization which received its raw material entirely from outside,-I am eliminating the Northwest Territories for the moment-from provincial sources. When, not by the action of any province but solely because of economic conditions to which this country as a nation contributed, the price of gold went to $35 an ounce, and the suggestion was made that a portion of that increment between $20.67 and $35 should be paid into the national treasury, such a furore of opposition was created from one end of the country to the other on the part of the mining interests that I really thought it was an extremely unfair attitude to take. The nation and not the provinces had brought about the end by means of which these industries profited greatly. For example, they were able to use lower grade ore, that in days gone by they had abandoned, for the production of gold at $35 an ounce instead of $20.67, which was the former statutory value of it, and for which the dominion could continue to purchase gold if it so desired. Yet from their annual meetings they sent statements all over the world complaining to their shareholders that the dominion had taken a portion of this money, although it was a very small portion at that.
That brought to my mind as nothing else did the fact that here we were maintaining a research bureau at very substantial expense to dominion taxpayers; yet when an effort was made to secure a portion of the money that came to this industry by reason of national policies and the general economic structure of the nation a tremendous objection was made. Why, I used to receive letters from shareholders in the United States and other parts of the world complaining of the burden of taxation we imposed upon the gold mining industry of the country. That made me think then, as I now say to the minister: Why should we engage in research work? Why should the nation engage in that work when the matter is purely provincial? The province secures the royalties; the province controls the areas; the province owns the mines, as far as the crown is concerned. It is the crown in the right of the province, not in the right of the dominion.
The second point is that we are maintaining a research bureau of our own. Why should we maintain a second one for a specific particular kind of commodity? That was the second point, to which it was difficult for anyone to furnish an adequate answer. It is not as though our situation were similar to that of South Africa. I do not know whether the minister has had his attention directed to

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some of the reports of the great mining companies in South Africa, but I saw some a few days ago and put them to one side, intending to bring them here. There is a series of companies operating in the Rand in South Africa, and the taxes they pay to the state are so great that they bear a direct relation to the entire production of gold in that area. The Rand gold is extracted from quartz lying many hundreds, if not thousands, of feet below the surface. They have now completed their investigations, their diamond drill boring and so on, and they know that the Rand is capable of producing gold for a period of many years. Perhaps that gold production will continue well into the second century. That is why the other day South Africa paid off part of its national debt. That is why within a very short time South Africa will become a creditor nation. There has been a general disposition on the part of the proprietors of those mines, in Great Britain and elsewhere in the world, to complain as to the burden of taxation; yet they have paid handsomely and willingly.
I mention this because it has to do with the dominion engaging in research work in connection with this industry when we already have a research council, and in at least one of the provinces similar work is being done, though not to the same extent. I mention this to the minister lest in his enthusiasm for the mines he should forget that vast sums of money have been expended, at times when it was difficult to find money, and that it is no more than right that there should be some contribution back to the state in connection with that which belonged to the state and with which the state parted. The crown was trustee for all the people, and when the crown parted with any precious metal it did so on terms that involved the payment of a royalty of some kind. That always has been the law; that shguld be the law, and I assume it always will be the law. As trustee for all the people, not for a few of them, the crown has to distribute the burden as well as it can over those who are winning great rewards from the utilization of these resources which are vested in the crown as trustee for all the people.
Let me sum up that phase of the question by suggesting to the minister that he should investigate very closely the question of duplication and determine whether it is desirable, with respect to matters over which we have no control, to maintain research bureaux of this kind when we already have a great national research council which might do the work. That means that there is no coordination; that there is lack of effective, direct control over the whole enterprise; it means that one department, instead of making its contribution to 12739-207J
the general research effort of the country, is maintaining its own organization for its own purposes. In the same way we have at Montreal a timber testing laboratory. It would be very difficult to justify that by any principle that could be thought of, since we have brought into being a general national research council.
Now we proceed to the second point to which I desire to direct attention, that is, that the influence which the winning of great mineral rewards has upon the nation as a whole is very subtle. I believe from what I have read that for every dollar which this country has taken out of mines it has probably put back two dollars, or perhaps five dollars; some put it as high as that. If hon. members ever took ithe trouble to think of the various mining stocks which they have owned at some time, I wonder how many have ever received any return from their expenditures? That has been going on all over the country. It is a dangerous thing to suggest that because, in some instances, there has been a certain measure of success, everybody is warranted in paying ten cents a share for the * beautifully engraved certificate which, in the end, sometimes represents little or no value.
I mention this because there are other branches of human endeavour of which we sometimes think too little, which produce very great rewards and much new wealth without the corresponding risk of loss of such vast sums as have been lost in mineral exploration in Canada. I should not care to repeat figures given to me by those who thought they were in a position to speak of the relationship of the expenditure to what we have been able to obtain-I am speaking now of the more precious metals, where the returns are great once you have returns, but where there have been so many failures-but I think the minister should keep that in mind, lest we too strongly emphasize one phase of our national economy.
Let me put this to the minister: What we are endeavouring to get is new wealth. Every new country desires to produce new wealth. The complement of that is that we desire to produce it as quickly as possible. That is the reason why vast sums are spent in endeavouring to find petroleum, because, when found, it brings immediate returns. And of course the same thing happened there; promoters immediately began to offer certificates. I am happy to say that I never did; I sold only one that I bought, though the temptation was very great; so I can speak on that point without any personal feeling. But this is the point; Petroleum, once it is found, brings immediate new wealth. Did hon. members ever
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think of the amount of time that must elapse from the moment a man kicks a piece of rock, picks it up, looks at it and thinks: There is evidence of a rich vein of gold, until the first gold brick comes from the area? Did hon. members ever think of the amount of money that has to be spent and the time that must elapse? On the other hand, if you happen to strike a pool of oil you get immediate returns.
But there is another side of the question. Take our wheat; wheat has become of tremendous importance in our national economy. Why? Because you sow it in the spring and reap the new wealth in the fall. The reaping of the new wealth in the fall meant that you had available within the period of a few months vast sums of money which represented the return from an effort made only a few months before. That is the distinction we must always keep in mind between the development of gold and mineral areas and the development of purely agricultural areas. Agricultural areas produce the new wealth almost at once; therefore agriculture must be the basic industry of a country such as this. Mineral development will produce new wealth, but sometimes you have to wait a long time for it. Unfortunately, also, it is a wasting asset, for whenever a ton of quartz is taken out of the ground, milled and the gold taken from it, it is so much waste material; it is gone forever, whereas the soil properly cared for by rotation of crops and the addition of fertilizer may continue to produce prolific crops for centuries. Those are the distinctions which I suggest the minister must keep in mind, because the change in the price of gold from S20 to $35 an ounce was a sudden one, and we are dependent upon that new price of gold for this abnormal development. There would never have been this enormous development but for the fact that what was formerly low grade ore has now become profitable. I mention this in order to suggest to the minister that we must never forget to maintain a proper balance. For instance, in an English journal the other day I read an article in which they quoted from the Minister of Mines, indicating that he thought the day of agriculture in Canada is about ended.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I never said that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Of course the minister did not mean any such thing. I heard what he said and I saw it in print afterwards, but that is the construction that has been placed upon it, which indicates the absolute necessity of not putting too much emphasis upon any

one particular industry in our economy. I say that the production of new wealth from mines and minerals has in the main been fraught with great uncertainty and the expenditure of vast sums of money and that the returns have very often been greatly delayed from the time the initial effort has been made. What kept this country solvent for twenty-five years is the fact that in that other branch of our national endeavour we had immediate returns of new wealth from the effort made during each year. Perhaps no one knows that better than the minister himself.
I mention this fact merely because it is desirable that while we rejoice, as we all do, that our mineral production has increased from $25,000,000 to $222,000,000 in the period from 1901 to 1935-and it is a very great progress- at the same time all one has to do is to read Mr. Vaughan's life of the late Sir William Van Horne to realize that half a century ago when the first train of the Canadian Pacific railway reached Port Moody, no one was thinking that between the lakes and the mountains there was territory capable of producing new wealth to the extent of hundreds of millions of dollars every year. Yet, for over a quarter of a century that territory was producing millions of dollars of new wealth year after year in the very year in which the effort was made. That has had the most significant influence upon our economic life of any single factor in our development, because never have so few people, as far as the ordinary history of the world is concerned, produced so much new wealth in a given time as has been produced within the last thirty years between the lakes and the mountains in this dominion. That, I think, is borne out by the statistics of world production.
I do not in any sense disparage the effort to assist in the development of our mineral resources; neither am I one who believes that because it is a wasting asset we should remember that we owe some obligation to posterity, because if we are right in our view there will be ample left for succeeding generations. But I am not unmindful of the fact that as I travelled over the Cariboo country I had pointed out to me localities where within the lifetime of men who were with me there had been considerable settlements and wealth had been produced by millions of dollars; yet that has all been abandoned, and the old Cariboo trail is but a memory of past greatness. All one has to do is to go to California and look upon the remnants of what was once a great industry there to realize that a wasting asset in our generation is after all, something to be thought

Supply-Mines
of and considered when we are dealing with the question of the production of new wealth, for nothing is worse for the state as such, it has always seemed to me, than the spasmodic production of new wealth. That is the reason why agriculture is, and always will be, the basic industry of the country, and the difficulty with agriculture at the moment is to procure with extended production adequate markets. Even with the drought conditions we have had in the territory west of the lakes, agriculture is still the basic industry of Canada.
I am not saying this in any way of criticism of the minister or of the efforts he is making in developing the mining industry. I am simply observing that in order to maintain a proper balance one must never forget that great as is the mining industry and important as is the production of new wealth from that source, yet the greatest source of the production of new wealth in this country has been, during the twenty-five to thirty years of its greatest expansion, those vast agricultural lands between the lakes and the mountains, and notwithstanding anything that may be said to the contrary it is to agriculture we must look for the stable production of that new wealth which is essential for the continued steady development of this dominion and its economic life. If we undertake, I repeat, the duplication of existing facilities -and we are undertaking them without getting any thanks, getting nothing but complaints at what we secure by way of taxes from those who receive the benefits-I think we might consider the whole situation in the light of the factors which, I believe, are important at least in determining the policies we should pursue with respect to the development of mineral and other areas and industries of this country.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I find myself in agreement with practically all that my right hon. friend has said.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I hope the minister does not think he is wrong because he is in agreement with me.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; once in a while both
might be right. I certainly agree with what my right hon. friend has said as to the importance of agriculture in the country's economic life. No one who has studied its record can be blind to the fact that that great area in the prairie provinces which has suffered so severely in the last four or five years has in its time, as it will do again, produced a very great deal of new wealth.
Whether the research laboratories of the mines branch should be brought under the national research council is a matter of opinion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Certainly the laboratories
were established long before the research council, and established at a time when I believe scarcely a province had a department of mines. Whether they should be maintained separately might be debatable. But in the field of agriculture, the great basic industry of this dominion, the federal government has assumed the responsibility of establishing experimental farms in practically every province.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The constitution by section 94 provides for that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I was not aware of that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, yes, my hon. friend
was Minister of Agriculture.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am not so familiar with the constitution as is my right hon. friend. At any rate this branch of the Department of Mines has been efficient in its work.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I agree.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Whether or not it should be put under the research council is a matter of opinion. I am informed by my deputy, who is a member of the research council, that the work of the council and of this branch of the Department of Mines is coordinated; there is cooperation between them, doubtless with the objective of getting the best results. So far as economy is concerned, I doubt whether very much would be saved by putting the mines branch under the research council.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If the minister will look at the report of the national research council and then look at the laboratories of the Department of Mines, he will see that there has been duplication. That is all I have to say.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not wish to see duplication that involves the unnecessary expenditure of public money. I appreciate what my right hon. friend has said about my enthusiasm for mines.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is not a fault.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: He was hardly putting it correctly. If he had spoken of my enthusiasm for mining development I would have agreed with him.


John Alexander (1874-1948) Macdonald: We have heard several interesting discourses on mining and we must all be more enlightened than when we came into the house. There has been very little said that was of a controversial nature. There is one question, however, to which I wish to direct the attention of hon.
Supply-Mines

members, and that is with regard to taxation. Personally I cannot see why the mining industry should be singled out for this taxation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What taxation does the hon. gentleman mean?


John Alexander (1874-1948) Macdonald: I understood the right hon. leader of the opposition to say that ihe had received from the people interested in mining a number of complaints against the taxation which had been directed against mines.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No; against the tax on the difference between the statutory price for gold of S20.67 and $35. We did impose a tax upon the increment between $20.67 and $35, and there was keen criticism and a great deal of objection to it. That was the particular tax I was speaking of. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear.


John Alexander (1874-1948) Macdonald: I was just going to say that we had spent a great deal of money on agriculture, fishing, shipping and a great many other things, and that we had done more research for these other industries than we had done for mining. Apparently I misunderstood my right hon. friend.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines-salaries, $530,152.75; contingencies,
Richard Bedford Bennett: What changes are there in this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is an increase of two employees in the staff of the mines department, as will be noticed by the details on pages 87 and 88 of the estimates. The extra positions provided for are: one geologist, one assistant geologist, and one editor. Offsetting this, the salary of one stenographer, grade 2, has been dropped. Provisions has to be made for the three new positions as they were recreated early in the fall of 1935 as a consequence of the relaxation of staff control regulations by order in council of July 16, 1933, whereby effect could be given to acting promotions made at earlier dates. The increase of $9,994.57 in the vote is due, first, to the salaries of these three positions and, second, to the statutory increases that apply.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am not going to deal with this at length because it would not be fair to do so in view of the fact that the government has been responsible for this department for only a few months. I have always been curious-I never got round to getting an adequate answer-as to why we should engage in the museum business without undertaking any real work with respect to the 
national museum. We have a palseobotanist ; we have an invertebrate palaeontologist; we have an archaeologist and we have other "ologists;" we have our editors and our statisticians; I have found that we are endeavouring to maintain in each department a self-contained structure. In view of the union that is about to take place between the Department of Mines and other departments it struck me that this item in its present form was hardly an adequate expression of what it was hoped to do. This department is to be merged with other departments; other considerations will enter into its administration, and I can say now that the former Minister of Mines, Mr. Murphy, along with a group of officials in other departments, prepared a memorandum looking towards the union of this department with other departments and what might be effected in the way of reductions. I cannot say that everybody agreed to the reductions. If the minister will look at the list of 198 people on pages 87 and 88 of the estimates, I think he will have a clear understanding of what I mean.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have looked at it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have no doubt the minister has looked at it. I certainly appreciate his feeling in that regard, but I suggest to him that the uniting of this department with other departments offers an admirable opportunity for the minister and his staff to take drastic steps in the way of the reform of what I regard as the tendency, not in this department alone but in all departments, to create a self-contained unit of the public service in each department. It was not easy to break this down and it has not been entirely broken down, but at some time or another it is bound to be. Take, for instance, the creation of assistant deputy ministers. There was about as much necessity for that position in this country as there is for a fifth wheel to a coach. Yet the minute one department had an assistant deputy minister, every other department wanted one. One department was not to be outdone by another and the result is that we have an assistant deputy minister in,
I believe, every department of the public service.


Thomas Reid: The government can hire but never fire.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The striking evidence during the last few weeks and months is hardly an adequate expression of that fact. I can only say that judging from what I have myself observed during the last few months. Probably the minister will say that they were but copying their predecessors in that regard. Be that as it may, I think there is room for a

'	Supply-Interior-Topographical Surveys
complete reorganization in that regard. The Department of Mines is an efficient department and I think it reflects great credit upon the deptuy head, but I think if you said to him, "Go and cut down that staff by twenty-five per cent," he would do so and have a more efficient organization than he has to-day.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Topographical and air survey bureau-
From topographical and air surveys, compiling, drawing, printing and distributing, geographical base maps for all purposes, issuing technical instructions for air photography and reconnaissance, under supervision of committee on air surveys and base maps; land and mining claim surveys of all remaining dominion lands (Northwest Territories, dominion parks, ordnance lands) ; preparing electoral district maps; maintaining central office for indexing, filing and recording of survey notes and plans, and the distribution of maps, et cetera,
[Stage Direction]
Amount required to provide for the purchase of air photographs or negatives for adding to the national air photographic library, $5,000.
Amount required to pay the fees of the board of examiners for D.L.S., of the secretary and of the subexaminers and for travelling expenses, stationery, printing, rent of room and furniture, etc. (the fees of Messrs. F. H. Peters, W. M. Tobey and Harry Parry, members of the board and J. A. Cote, secretary, are to be paid out of this sum), $820.
To assist in printing the publications of the Canadian Institute of Surveying (formerly the Association of Dominion Lands Surveyors), $350-Total, $110,770.
Grote Stirling: Earlier in the evening the minister gave a description of certain survey parties which were being sent out in the various provinces. He was then dealing with the vote in the special supplementary estimates?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Grote Stirling: Could the minister give similar information in connection with this vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is one large party in Quebec round Joliet. There is a large party in Ontario east of Sudbury, and two small observing parties in the Northwest Territories, north and east of Great Slave lake. That is the topographical and air survey work planned for this year.


Grote Stirling: Does that mean that no further air surveys will be made in order to get on with the air map of Canada?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The work is proceeding
of the classification of all these air photographs that have been taken, and some additional ones are being taken this year by these
particular parties. A considerable amount of that work has been done. So far as air mapping this year is concerned, we are endeavouring to direct it to the areas where it will be perhaps most immediately useful.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I would gather that the
item of $5,000 is to be paid to the Department of National Defence for the photographs taken. That is to cay, they do the work and the Department of the Interior purchases the photographs. Is that right?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some of the provincial
governments take air photographs which we can utilize in the collection that we are making, and this represents the amount that may be expended, or the estimate of the amount that will be required for the purchase of such air photographs. It simply supplements the photographic work that the department has already done.


Grote Stirling: Does that apply to
Ontario only?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, not Ontario only.


Grote Stirling: Photographs taken by
the provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe it is mainly in
Quebec and Ontario.


John Ritchie MacNicol: In northern Ontario?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Here again the question
of duplication comes up. The Department of National Defence is taking photographs in connection with the development of its air service. So far as I know, the Department of the Interior has not at present any air force for the purpose of taking photographs.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have no air force.


Richard Bedford Bennett: These aerial photographs are being taken by the Department of National Defence for the purpose of affording opportunities to men in training. That was what was intended-to afford opportunities to men in training to get experience in the air, taking photographs of the country over which they pass. But this item apparently is for the purpose of developing the survey work which they have done. As I remember, it was thought that this item would not continue to increase, and though apparently it is not increasing it is still over $100,000.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that there
is a coordinating committee and all these air surveys and pictures are correlated for the purpose of producing maps. I appreciate
3248	COMMONS
Supply-Interior-Geodetic Survey
fully, I hope, the need of doing away with overlapping in the various government departments. I do not know that blame can be attached anywhere particularly-


Richard Bedford Bennett: I agree.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -because this condition has simply developed. I was surprised, when I endeavoured to make a brief survey of the numerous branches under my direction, to find that there were duplications. I shall not attempt to suggest why it happened in that particular way. I will say, however, that my earnest effort is going to be directed towards creating an efficient administrative unit, and from my experience in the past I maintain that where you have duplication of expense and duplication of effort you lave not efficiency.


Grote Stirling: I think that in this case the coordinating committee set up for this purpose has been successful in its survey work and in cutting out duplication. It is all under the direction of that coordinating committee and each of the contributing departments fits into the scheme in accomplishing what the committee arranges.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is largely true.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geodetic Survey of Canada-
Control operations-precise levelling based on mean sea level, triangulation, geodetic astronomy and investigations-all basic for correlation of water areas, power developments, charts and maps and for the scientific study of the earth's crust, curvature, figure and dimensions. The above is the recognized basis of operations for federal and provincial departments, municipal authorities and engineering projects over the whole country, $134,600.
To recoup the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway Commission in connection with their claim for injury to John Hedin, $240-* Total, $134,840.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have a note with respect to geodetic survey, which is a little beyond my knowledge. I will read for the information of the committee this note with regard to the functions of the Geodetic Survey of Canada. They are:
To determine the geographical positions of horizontal control points throughout Canada by means of geodetic triangulation, geodetic traverse, geodetic astronomy and radio observations, all points being based on the North American datum.
If the members of the committee are any wiser after hearing that description of the functions of the geodetic survey-well, I simply congratulate them. What is a little more

intelligible, to me at any rate, is the following:
To establish bench marks throughout Canada by means of precise level observations, whose elevations are based on mean sea level; and by collecting, correlating and adjusting the results of engineering levelling to place all elevations in Canada on the same sea level datum.
I understand that these are the means by which accurate surveys are made. I do not know that I can add anything to that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Two years ago it was
suggested that a new method of ascertaining these points might be followed with success, at not so great cost, in connection with the actual work. Of course, this necessitates actual travelling over the areas to fix the points, having regard to the conditions that prevail from the standpoint of the magnetic needle and matters of that sort, and higher mathematics must be had recourse to. The exact point is located by triangulation and the fixed stars, and a few factors of that sort, the method being the same by which Columbus steered his course to America. It is a highly complicated application of higher mathematics. A few years ago the matter was brought to the attention of the government and an effort was made to devise a new plan to lessen the expense, in view of modern scientific developments. I do not know how far it got, because at that time it was only in its infancy, and I do not suppose that anything further has been done. This method of geodetic survey has for its object a thoroughly legal and complete description of points in this country. It has been going on now for a very long time, I think little by little for a period of at least twenty-five to thirty years, and it will not be finished for another twenty-five or thirty years, if then. For instance, we have been settling the boundary between the United States and Canada, and as far as I know now there is at least ten years' work in sight before it is concluded. The point I desired to make was whether any success had been achieved in devising a less expensive way of doing the work. At the present time it is very costly.


Thomas Reid: A few moments ago I asked the minister with regard to making surveys of the inlets and the bays of the Pacific coast of British Columbia. I am not sure whether this matter arises under this item, but I should like the information. What I have particularly to say is-and he can tell me if I am wrong-that I think more attention

Supply-Interior-International Boundary
should be paid to the surveying of the Pacific coast. Hon. members will realize that when I tell them that the Japanese fishermen have better surveys, obtained from their own country, of our Pacific coast than we have in British Columbia. The Japanese fishermen using this coast have up to date maps of our coast. It is just about time we took note that we are very far behind in the making of surveys. Surely we should have modem surveys of our own coast line. It almost makes one hang one's head in shame to see these Japanese in possession of better maps than any that are available to us. I would ask the minister to look into the matter and see that more survey work is done so that our own people can have up to date maps of our bays and inlets going all the way from the United States boundary line to Alaska.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I might point out that that is under the Marine department. Hydrographic surveys have been going on steadily for a period of fifteen or twenty years, but the truth is that in the main we still rely upon the British admiralty charts for much of our, shall I say, authentic information in connection with the bays and inlets and harbours of the country, but we are making some progress. On the Pacific coast it has been slow. I am sorry to say that what the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) has said is true. Another country can give us hydrographic maps of the west coast of British Columbia that are more complete than any we have available. Such as we have are, in the main, those that were completed for us by the British admiralty many years ago. Our own hydrographic work has been very, very slowly done. I think we have now a fairly complete map of Vancouver island and of that area on the west coast which runs from Vancouver harbour north to as far as Powell river, or somewhere in that locality, but beyond that, up towards Prince Rupert, I think there is nothing.


Thomas Reid: Nothing done at all.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Except there is something in the Queen Charlotte area and up towards Prince Rupert, which was done in a preliminary sort of way when that ship, the name of which is probably known to the hon. member for New Westminster, spent a summer there before confederation in doing hydrographic work. Beyond that I fear little or nothing has been done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International Boundary Commission - expenses connected with the maintenance in a state of effective demarcation of the international boundary, $29,200.
Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is mainly in connection with the international boundary.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How far is that work done now? I am curious to know.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that this is maintenance I understand the vote varies to some extent from year to year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes. But the line near where the Premier mine is situated-Alaska is on the other side-was completed about twelve or fifteen years ago. The line travelling east from British Columbia over the mountain areas and then along the plains has been all marked; I do not know how far this demarcation has been done in the east. I remember looking up the mountain side and seeing the clearing that had marked the boundary line as defined by the surveyors of that time. Of course the line has been there ever since the last arbitration took place in the far west, which was finally settled by the old emperor of Germany, but as I understand it this work takes care of the demarcation of the exact spot and the marking of the lines by proper cairns. The line was down in southern British Columbia, between there and the United States. I just wondered how far it had been completed in the way of permanent markings. I do not know.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand it is practically completed. There are a few places, such as my right hon. friend refers to, where matters are still under discussion as between the United States commissioners and the Canadian commissioners.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is nothing very important.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is so. The main part of the vote, however, is for the maintenance of the monuments that mark the international line.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Northwest Territories-* salaries and expenses connected with the administration of the Northwest Territories Act and ordinances, Northwest Game Act and regulations, Eskimo affairs, Wood Buffalo park, reindeer industry, game preserves and sanctuaries, wolf bounties, exploration, investigation and development of natural resources, fire protection, construction and maintenance of buildings, schools, hospitals and roads, relief to destitute, maintenance and transportation of prisoners and insane patients, equipment and supplies, contingencies, et cetera, $187,700.
3250	COMMONS
Supply-Interior-Northwest Territories
Richard Bedford Bennett: I was going to mention the case of Mr. Douglas, the stipendiary magistrate in the Northwest Territories. It was said that he was removed from his position for the purposes of economy. He was appointed some years ago; I think he was in the house when the Minister of the Interior was here; and I noticed in the press that he was removed. I put a question on the order paper, and the reply was that he was removed because the duties had been taken over by somebody in the Department of the Interior, as a matter of economy. What official took over his duties?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Douglas was removed from his position, or rather the position was discontinued and the duties assigned to Mr. Norquay. The two of them were under salary, and the duties discharged by Mr. Douglas, which I think were magisterial duties of a kind in the Northwest Territories-he lived in Edmonton-weTe taken over by Mr. Nor-quay. The reason as given to me is the one that was stated in the answer to the question.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, I have no doubt as to that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the appointment was really under the Department of Justice, but the salary was paid by our department.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think it might be well to ask the minister a few questions, in order that the public may understand how the administration of the Northwest Territories is carried on. Perhaps the minister would indicate how the Northwest Territories are governed at the present moment through the Department of the Interior, how its ordinances are enacted, how they receive the authority of law, with what subjects they deal, the general scheme of administration in connection with mining recorders, fishing regulations, policing, radio and other matters affecting the well-being of that enormous area. Perhaps the minister would indicate something as to the population, the number of white people who are supposed to be within the area and the number of Indians. It seems to me it would be helpful to have that on record, because nowadays many people are interested in the Northwest Territories, having regard to the mineral development that is taking place there.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know that I can give all the information my right hon. friend has suggested.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Many members of the
house are new, and I thought they would like to know something about that vast area.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am, in a way, new too,
as far as the Northwest Territories are concerned. On the basis of the 1931 census the total population is 9,723, of whom 1,007 were classed as white, 4,046 as Indians and 4,670 as Eskimos. I take it that the Eskimo population is largely an estimate; probably it was not made up by actual count, but at any rate the records available give the population as I have just stated it. The government is carried on by a council under the Minister of the Interior. There is a commissioner, a deputy commissioner and five councillors, appointed by the governor general in council. The commissioner in council has power to make ordinances for the government of the territory under the instructions of the governor general in council or the Minister of the Interior, respecting direct taxation within the territories in order to raise revenue, and so on; the establishment and tenure of territorial offices and the appointment of officials; maintenance of prisons; municipal institutions; licences; solemnization of marriage; property and civil rights; administration of justice and generally all matters of a local nature. That covers a considerable range. Fortunately the population is not very large, so the duties are not very heavy.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is practically section
92 of the British North America Act applied to the Northwest Territories.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. That is vested in
the federal authority.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Perhaps the minister might
give the committee the total cost of the government of the Northwest Territories.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The vote for this year,
covering the matters mentioned under the item we are discussing, is $187,700, which is a reduction of some 160,000 from last year.


Abraham Albert Heaps: But there are some other
costs which should be added in order to give the total cost of government in the Northwest Territories, are there not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This is all that comes under this department. There are other matters under other departments, such as the maintenance of the police, any public works that might be undertaken, and so on.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The radio.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, the radio which is
under the Marine department, and so on.


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: Is there a similar system in the Yukon territory?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, to some extent similar.
MA\:


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is no elective
assembly in the Northwest Territories at the moment. Government is carried on by this council of seven members who sit in Ottawa and pass the ordinances ito which reference has been made. Would the minister tell me how many people are receiving salaries in the Northwest Territories and what salaries they receive?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are twelve in the
head office at Ottawa, and the total salaries *will be S14.364, according to the estimate, after allowing for the deduction of five per cent.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many in the territories?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that there are two mining inspectors, two clerks and a number of medical officers.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Where are the mining
inspectors now?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At Fort Smith and Cameron Bay. The medical officers are located at Fort Smith, Aklavik, Chesterfield, Pagnirtung, Resolution, Great Bear Lake, Fort Simpson and Good Hope. The last four are part-time officers.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Are there any other administrative officers? Of course the police come under another item.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. I think the only other senior official we have is the man in charge of the reindeer station.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does any one of the
seven governors of the Northwest Territories reside there? Either the chairman or the deputy chairman was there at one time. Is he still there?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Mr. Cumming is at Fort Smith.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the minister
would tell us about the reindeer now.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The herd has been safely
delivered on the east side of the Mackenzie river after a journey from Alaska that occupied the better part of three years. The last report we had in August gave the number in the herd as 2,960.


Grote Stirling: As of what date?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: At the round-up in August last.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many left Alaska?
I did know but I have forgotten.
29, 1936	3251
Supply-Interior-Northwest Territories


Thomas Alexander Crerar: About 3,000 left Alaska, and there were 2,370 delivered. Evidently there was some mortality on the way. I hope this reindeer herd will justify the high expectations that were held in regard to it when the enterprise was undertaken. It is necessary, I am informed, to maintain guards for the reindeer to prevent decimation by wolves and Eskimos. There is an assistant superintendent and several labourers. The total cost is estimated this year as $21,800, covering everything.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think if the minister
will look he will find that the arrangement is older than three years. I think Mr. Stewart, his predecessor in office, made the arrangement. At one time it was not quite certain whether they were going to be got over at all, but they were finally got over.


John Gordon Ross: Some of them
went back.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes; I think that is true; they fled from the wrath to come. They had heard of these Eskimos and Indians and wolves that the minister has been speaking of, and they went back. The $21,000 surely involves more than the mere keep and caring for the reindeer. We have got them safe now on this side of the Mackenzie river and now their fives are threatened by the wolves; we pay a bounty for killing wolves and we also take care of the Eskimo, so the problem is: What is going to happen to the reindeer? Santa Claus will perhaps come down with them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, to ibe perfectly
frank, I know very little about these reindeer.
I believe I am correct in saying that certainly no responsibility can attach to my right hon. friend or his government.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, I was not speaking about that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the intention was
a very good one, and they may serve a very useful purpose. It seems to me that as the years pass the federal government is being pushed further and further into responsibility for looking after the native inhabitants of this country. From my brief experience in the department I imagine I can foresee that the government's responsibility to the Eskimo is likely to increase rather than to decrease.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think that is sound.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If we can provide them
with means of subsistence I think it is good business, and when I reflect on the fact, which

Supply-Interior-Northwest Territories
I think I mentioned to the committee when the estimates of the Indian Affairs department were before it, that we paid out in relief last year about $900,000 for the care of Indians, I aim to create, if possible, conditions that will prevent the Eskimo from coming on relief. How far the reindeer will help in that direction remains to be seen.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If we do not try to
civilize the Eskimos they will never be on relief.


Abraham Albert Heaps: It is only civilized people
who are on relief.


Grote Stirling: Can the minister say
whether the reindeer are staying put, or are they wandering?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They are herded.


Grote Stirling: The idea was that they should go into that area and spread, was it not?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They are under the care
of herdsmen; they travel, I understand, over a considerable area in order to find pasturage. In the autumn they are rounded up into their winter quarters.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No; we set aside an area for them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They are brought into
winter quarters where the herbage is such that they can feed during the winter.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The whole reason the
reindeer were brought into that area is to afford food for the Eskimo, because they can live under the conditions that prevail in that part of the world.


John Ritchie MacNicol: Does the minister know whether they are herded in the land they come from?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; I understand that the reindeer industry in Alaska is quite considerable. These reindeer were brought from Alaska; they were purchased from a corporation which was a large holder of reindeer in Alaska, and which, I understand, makes a business of shipping reindeer meat to points in the United States.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is a Christmas delicacy sent to New York, and that sort of thing.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Yukon Territory-
Salaries and expenses connected with the administration of the territory, including surveys, $42,000.
Grant to the Yukon council for local purposes, the construction and maintenance of roads and such other expenditures as the

commissioner is authorized to expend by and with the advice and consent of the council or any committee thereof; and the accounts with respect to such expenditure shall be subject to examination and audit by the auditor general as provided by section 22, chapter 215, revised statutes, 1927, $70,000-Total, $112,000.
John Gordon Ross: In connection with the old claims filed in the Yukon many years ago, has any machinery been set up by the department or through the gold commissioner by which these claims can be cleared away? Back in 1897-98, when the rush was on, thousands of claims were staked in the Yukon, some of which were proved up and then abandoned, or the people who owned them are dead to-day or have thrown them up. But with the increased price of gold another move is now starting into that part of the country. If the titles of those old claims are not cleared up it will be impossible for people to file on them again. Has anything been done by the department to clear up the claims staked at that time so that the ground can be staked now by newcomers?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think this is the first time this question has come to my attention.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is one big company still operating.


John Gordon Ross: Yes, the Tread-gold company. But there are many thousands of claims that might be staked again.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I saw their report not long since; they apparently did not make much money last year.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The information given to me is that the owners of these claims in many instances have moved away; the larger companies have been acquiring them, I assume, by purchase, and they are being operated by these larger companies.


John Gordon Ross: But many claims that were staked there have been abandoned. The locators may have proved up or they may not, but as with certain oil leases, once claims are applied for and the fees paid they must go to public auction in order to be acquired by someone else.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the grants all contain provisions that certain operations have to be commenced within a given time, failure to do which empowers the crown to give notice cancelling the right, such as it is. The hon. member will perhaps remember the Poison case which went to the privy councilr that decided the validity of the notice, since-

Questions
which time the department has been very particular to give the notice in the manner prescribed by law. Once the notice is given the claim is cancelled.


John Gordon Ross: I have in mind that there will be many pieces of ground which the prospectors may want to stake again and on which there has been no notice given. It is impossible for such claims to be restaked unless these old titles are cleared away.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the Yukon council now have power to clear the titles.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not think any difficulty should arise, because even if the owners have moved away these original claims are registered, and if a patent has been issued the authorities would not issue a new registration on a claim already held by someone else.


John Gordon Ross: Many people
went in to the Yukon as prospectors, staked claims, proved up on them and possibly did not have enough money to carry on, or did not feel that it was a good enough stake, but to-day with the different price of gold it might be a good enough stake. Now, if such a man has died leaving no heirs to take the claim over, there is a blank piece of ground that might be staked by another prospector, but under present conditions it cannot be staked. Is there no way of cleaning that up so that development can go on?


Richard Bedford Bennett: If a patent has issued, obviously the title to the property has passed to somebody else. If no patent has issued the claim may be terminated for non-working. There is either a grant or no grant. If there is a grant there is a patent; the property is dealt with as ordinary property because it belongs to the heirs, and we have no jurisdiction over it. If no patent has issued, there is nothing but a claim, which can be forfeited by reason of non-working, and it would then become available for restaking.
In view of the fact that it was not expected we should reach this item to-night, and as the hon. member for the Yukon (Mrs. Black) is not present and wishes to make some observations with respect to the item, perhaps the minister will let it stand.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Under the circumstances I shall be very glad to do so.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of iMr. Crerar the house adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Monday, June 1, 1936