1936-05-13

[Stage Direction]
First report of the committee on standing orders.-Mr. Jacobs.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. McCULLOCH:: What was the total cost in the financial year of 1935 of the Civil Service Commission for all purposes?


Mr. RINFRET:: 

federal taxation by provinces


Mr. CHURCH:: What is the total amount of the actual cash taxes paid to the government per annum by provinces, deducting federal subsidies, for the last year of record?
fMr. Mackenzie King.]


Mr. DUNNING:: With reference to this question I find that a similar question was asked in the 1932 session. The then prime minister answered in a manner of which I wholly approve, and I quote his answer:
The question which the hon. gentleman asks I submit should be dropped. It is impossible to tell what sums have been derived from each province for the last five years, and by what department of the dominion government. It is possible to ascertain, as is known to every hon. member in this house, sums collected at the customs houses and income tax offices in each of the provinces. Obviously however, imports at cities like Montreal, Quebec, Saint John, Halifax, or other cities at the seaboard do not always show their destinations, and questions which have been asked in times past in this connection have not produced results. The bureau of statistics have not been able to get the information. It is not a question which the government could accurately answer, and an inaccurate answer would be worse than none at all.
For the same reasons I suggest that the question be dropped.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Dropped.


HERVAY CHEMICAL COMPANY
Mr. BOULANGER:: 1.	Why did the Hervay Chemical Company of St. Basile, Portneuf county, as already stated to the house, refuse to produce its books to Mr. Allaire, the auditor, if the said books were correct?
2.	How was it that this company in bankruptcy in the spring of 1931 owed the government $21,079.62 for arrears of sales tax if its books were correct and its returns were truthful?
3.	Why has the company been prosecuted for refusing to produce its books, if the said books were accurate?
4.	Why did Mr. Savary, accountant for the company, make the statements credited to him by the Department of National Revenue in its reply to previous questions, if the books and returns were accurate and truthful?
5.	Has the company's indebtedness of $21,079.62 been settled by the Department of National Revenue for $5,227.65 and has the department given the company a receipt in full for the balance of the debt?
6.	Who was the legal representative who made the settlement for the company with the Department of National Revenue?
7.	Why did the Department of National Revenue allow the company's arrears of sales tax to reach the sum of $21,079.62?
8.	Who is responsible for the fact that the sales tax owing by this company to the Department of National Revenue had not been paid and that the tax arrears were permitted to accumulate to the amount mentioned?


Mr. ILSLEY:: 1.	It has not been previously stated that the Hervay Chemical Company's books were correct. It has been stated, however, that books submitted to auditors were accurate.

Questions
2.	It has not been, stated that returns were truthful. After threatened prosecution by the department concealed records were produced from which Mr. Allaire established his assessment of $21,079.62.
3.	Prosecution proceedings were instituted but were withdrawn when concealed records were produced.
4.	Mr. Savary's declaration does not deal with accuracy of the company's records.
5.	The company went into liquidation in 1932 and the department received $5,227.65 on account of its claim from the trustee in bankruptcy. No receipt in full was given to the company.
6.	A settlement was not made. The company went into liquidation.
7.	The department had no knowledge of the arrears until the concealed records were discovered.
8.	Certain records were concealed. No departmental official was responsible.


PORT MAITLAND, ONT., FERRY
Mr. SENN:: 1.	Is it the intention of the Department of Railways and Canals to operate the ferry at Port Maitland this year?
2.	What is the name of the operator of the ferry in former years?
3.	How many years has he served in this capacity ?
4.	Has the appointment of an operator been made for this year?
5.	If so, what is his name?
6.	Upon whose recommendation was the appointment made?


Mr. HOWE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Allan David Ross.
3.	Regularly, each season, from 1912 to 1929, inclusive. In March, 1930, ferry service was ordered discontinued, and Ross granted two months' retiring leave with pay.
In July, 1930, ferry service resumed for balance of season only, and George Siddall temporarily employed. Siddal resigned following the 1930 election, when Ross was reemployed. Since 1930, ferry service has been maintained from season to season on a temporary basis, and Ross' services continued in similar capacity up to and including 1935 season of navigation.
4.	Yes.
5.	George Siddall.
6.	Frank Laidlaw.


BORSTAL SYSTEM
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the Borstal system been established in any of Canada's penal institutions?
2.	If so, where?
3.	What has been spent on this to date?
4.	Will the government lay on the table of the house a copy of a report made by one of its departmental officers on this whole question after his visit to England last year?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Nil.
4.	The report referred to is included in the annual report of the superintendent of penitentiaries which was tabled on February 10, 1936.


NATIONAL PARKS-ONTARIO
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the province of Ontario any federal national park?
2.	If so, where is it located?
3.	Has the government received during the last two years any correspondence or application with reference to establishing a federal national park in the Muskoka, lake Simcoe, Georgian bay and lake of Bays districts? _
4.	Has any action been taken on the said request ?


Mr. CRERAR:: 1.	Yes-three.
2.	St. Lawrence islands national park comprising part of the Thousand islands in the St. Lawrence river.
Point Pelee national park comprising all the crown lands as shown on the plan of the naval reserve at Point Pelee in the township of Mersea, as surveyed by Alexander Baird, provincial land surveyor, dated September 10, 1881.
Georgian bay island national park comprising Beausoleil island and 28 other islands or parts of islands in the Georgian bay lying opposite the townships of Freeman, Baxter and Gibson. In addition Flower Pot island near Tobermory is also administered as part of the Georgian bay islands national park, although not yet formally added to the park.
3 and 4. No record.


JAMES M. DOUGLAS
Mr. BENNETT:: 1.	Is James M. Douglas a stipendiary magistrate for the Northwest Territories?
2.	If not, was he removed from office, and when and for what cause?


Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: 1.	No.
2.	Yes, by order in council dated March 30, 1936. He was not removed for cause but for purposes of economy and good administration. His successor is an officer of the Department of the Interior, who performs the duties without additional remuneration.
Questions as Orders for Returns


EXPERIMENTAL FARM EXPROPRIATION
Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: 1.	Has the west half of section 30, township 44, range 18, west of the 2nd meridian, been acquired by the government for experimental farm purposes?
2.	If so, were expropriation proceedings taken to secure title to the said property, and what offer was made therefor?
3.	Has a price in excess of the offer, if any, made in the expropriation proceedings been paid or agreed to be paid for the said half section ?
4.	If so, what sum, and when paid or payable?


Mr. GARDINER:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes, $11,200.
3.	Yes.
4.	Cheque for $14,800, issued March 28, 1936.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS

['1. What were the names and the salaries and expenses per annum of each member of\n[Mr. E. Lapointe.!\nall the provincial staffs, employed under the pensions tribunal from 1930, when the said pensions tribunal was created, until 1933, when the same was abolished?\n2.\tWere the members of the pensions tribunal under contract for any stated period of time?\n3.\tWhen the pensions tribunal was abolished, did the salaries of the members automatically cease, or were they further reimbursed for loss of anticipated salaries?\n4.\tWhat were the total amounts expended by the board per annum in each province, including total salaries, total expenses and total administration costs?']
Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Return tabled herewith.
1.	How much sugar did the Canadian people consume in each of the years 1930, 1931, 1932, 1933, 1934, and 1935?
2.	From what countries did this sugar come, and how much from each of these countries?
3.	What percentage of Canada's sugar supply is now produced in Canada?
4.	In case of war, would sugar be contraband of war?
5.	What encouragement, in the form of subsidy, or in other form, is the United States giving to her sugar producers?
6.	What other countries of the western world, Europe and America, are giving some special encouragement to sugar producers?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Return tabled herewith.



Mr. PATTERSON:: 1. What were the names and the salaries and expenses per annum of each member of
[Mr. E. Lapointe.!
all the provincial staffs, employed under the pensions tribunal from 1930, when the said pensions tribunal was created, until 1933, when the same was abolished?
2.	Were the members of the pensions tribunal under contract for any stated period of time?
3.	When the pensions tribunal was abolished, did the salaries of the members automatically cease, or were they further reimbursed for loss of anticipated salaries?
4.	What were the total amounts expended by the board per annum in each province, including total salaries, total expenses and total administration costs?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. LACROIX (Beauce):: For a copy of all letters, documents and report of proceedings sent the Attorney General of Quebec by the Registrar of Combines referring to the presentation of a false minute book by the Quebec Coal Dealers' Association during the investigation into an alleged coal combine held at Quebec and as referred to in the English transcription of the report of the registrar on page 147, lines 11 to 22 inclusive.



GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS AND EXPENDITURES BY PROVINCES

Mr. MUTCH:: For a return showing: (1) the total amount asked for in the estimates, special estimates and supplementary estimates, for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1937; (2) the total amount to be expended by each of the several departments of the federal government in each of the nine provinces of Canada.


Charles Avery Dunning: May I point out that the information sought in part 2 of the order cannot be given accurately, because there are so very many expenditures of the federal government which cannot be divided into provinces. There are matters of interest, war pensions and others which will occur to the minds of hon. members. Subject to this qualification I have no objection to the motion.


Mr. BENNETT:: It cannot be completed until supplementary estimates are brought down, if any.


Walter Edward Foster: Adopted, with the reservation mentioned.



QUEBEC WHARF RENTALS

Mr. BOULANGER:: For a copy of all leases and transfers of leases, actually in force, concerning the renting of space on the wharves in the harbour of Quebec


Mr. HOWE:: May I point out that this
motion refers to all wharves in the harbour of Quebec. Manifestly many of those are

British North America Act
not in any way connected with the government. Some are railway property, in respect of which it is not customary to give information of this kind. It is doubtful whether such information should be given as to harbour leases. I submit that the hon. member should either reword the motion or drop it, preferably the latter.


Joseph Oscar Lefebre Boulanger: I should be content with copies of leases granted by the former harbour commission on wharves belonging to the harbour commission. May I say further that I should be satisfied with abstracts of leases, showing the names of the parties, the consideration, length of term of lease, and so on.


Clarence Decatur Howe: If the hon. member will recast the motion in that way, I can see no objection to it.


Walter Edward Foster: Carried, with that reservation.



BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT


[Stage Direction]
On the notice of motion of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) for an address to His Majesty the King praying that a measure be submitted to the parliament of Great Britain and Ireland to amend the British North America Act with respect to taxation and guarantee of [DOT] provincial debts:
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) :: Mr. Speaker, last night the hon.
member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) objected to our proceeding to-day because some correspondence referring to the matter had not been tabled. I have looked into the matter-


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a
point of order, as to whether this resolution is in order.


Walter Edward Foster: Order.


Thomas Langton Church: I wish to speak to a
point of order.


Walter Edward Foster: Order; I ask the hon.
member to sit down. The Minister of Justice has the floor.


Ernest Lapointe: There is
some little correspondence in the Department of Justice, which will be tabled this afternoon. Then there is some with the Department of Finance, and it will be laid on the table at the same time.


Hon. C. H. CAHAN (St. Lawrence-St. George):: There was evidently some misunderstanding last night at adjournment. I
referred particularly to correspondence dealing with the authorization to provinces to impose indirect taxation in certain instances. The misunderstanding was partly due to an incident which occurred during the unavoidable absence of the Minister of Justice from this chamber. On April 1 the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) read into Hansard the correspondence between himself and the government of the province of Alberta. Then, on May 1, in his budget address he stated :
I may add that after the most careful consideration we are nrepared to recommend certain modifications to the loan council arrangement originally suggested.
Then the Minister of Finance proceeded to say:
I might advise the house that the modification to which I have just referred is being communicated to all the provinces, particularly those primarily concerned, and of course will have their consideration, and we shall hear from them with respect to it before very long.
It is this correspondence, which has not yet been laid upon the table of the house, to which I also particularly referred last night.


Ernest Lapointe: The
correspondence mentioned by the hon. member does not relate to the subject matter of the resolution. It is with regard to the details and particulars under which a loan council in Canada would be established, and the advantage which would be taken of the authority which the parliament of Canada would receive to guarantee loans made by provinces, and the taking of security on account of those guarantees. It is rather in relation to the legislation which will be submitted to parliament once the amendment to the British North America Act is enacted. I do not think it has relation to the subject matter of the address itself.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I find it almost impossible
to understand clearly the purport of the amendment proposed to the British North America Act dealing with matters relating to the proposed loan council. I thought possibly the correspondence might clarify the intention of those who drafted the proposed address.


Ernest Lapointe: If there is no objection, I should be pleased to table the whole thing.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As long as we get it sooner or later.
Motion stands.


Thomas Langton Church: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) a question. In addition to bringing down the correspondence
Codeine

that was asked for by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) with reference to the resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Justice, will the minister consider widening the discussion on his resolution to include a discussion of the resolution in my name at the top of page 12 of the order paper, which has been standing on the order paper since the twenty-fifth of February? My point is that the minister's resolution deals with only one phase of amendments to the British North America Act.


Walter Edward Foster: Order.


Thomas Langton Church: I am quite in order, Mr. Speaker.


Walter Edward Foster: The hon. gentleman can present his views when the resolution is reached.


Thomas Langton Church: I am asking a proper question, Mr. Speaker, under the rules of the house, and am now simply laying the foundation for my question. Shall we be afforded an opportunity of discussing the whole question of amendments to the British North America Act along the lines of my resolution, which involves a much larger question?


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, it is not the intention to extend the scope of the resolution as it stands on the order paper.


Thomas Langton Church: I intend to raise that question as to the anticipation rule when the resolution is under consideration.


Walter Edward Foster: Order.



CODEINE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of Pensions and National Health):: During the course of the debate last evening the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Hartigan) made certain statements respecting codeine which possibly he would not have made had he been in full possession of the facts. So far as the figures given by the hon. member with respect to the importation of codeine into Canada are concerned, the facts related by him are strictly accurate. But in so far as during the course of his remarks he reflected to some extent upon my predecessors in office, and particularly upon the present leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett), I think it would be well to read a statement furnished me by

the department, in order that the house may be in full possession of the facts with respect to this drug.
Codeine was included in part II of the narcotic schedule during the year 1933, which placed the control of the import and export of such drug in the hands of this department, and which drug as a result could be legally imported or exported only by licensed narcotic wholesalers. The whole question of codeine has been referred to the health committee of the League of Nations for investigation into its addiction properties, which question is under study at the present time, and no report has so far been received. The only country so far as I am aware which has placed codeine on the addiction list is the United States of America.
As a result of a discussion with the Canadian Pharmaceutical Association and subsequently with a number of narcotic wholesalers, a cooperative scheme of control of sales not covered by any legislative authority was initiated on December 1,	1934, whereby
narcotic wholesalers undertook to supply codeine only to those mentioned in section 5 of the Narcotic Act, namely, other licensed wholesalers, physicians, dentists, veterinary surgeons and retail druggists, and report such sales monthly both to this department and to the registrars of the provincial pharmaceutical associations concerned. These figures were to be coordinated, and when in the opinion of the provincial pharmaceutical associations any sales to retail druggists were found to be excessive, they were to recommend that further sales to such druggists be prevented, the wholesalers in turn having undertaken to accept and act on any recommendations which they received, through this department. As a result of this cooperative control there are at the present time fifty-nine retail druggists whose names appear on the codeine restricted list, which prevents their obtaining any supply of codeine whatever from licensed wholesalers.
In October, 1935, all licensed narcotic wholesalers in Canada were requested to limit their sales of codeine to all retail druggists to one ounce in any one month, unless special authority to exceed such amount had previously been issued by this department.
During 1919, when the Patent and Proprietary Medicine Act was amended, the use of codeine was prohibited in patent medicines.
The increased consumption of codeine in Canada is due to the effective control of the importation, manufaoture and sale of other narcotics such as opium, morphine and its

derivatives, and cocaine. The inability of drug addicts to obtain these drugs has driven them to the use of codeine. When they first found their supply of these drugs cut off they resorted to paregoric. As soon as it was ascertained that the consumption, of this drug was increasing it was brought under the active control. They are now using codeine. The use of codeine has been discussed by the representatives of Canada on the League of Nations, with the object of endeavouring to impose the same measures of control upon it that have been put into effect on other narcotics.
Successive governments have cooperated fully with the opium traffic and social welfare sections of the League of Nations in controlling the illegal traffic in narcotics. Canada has actively participated in the work of the advisory committee on traffic in opium and other dangerous drugs to which the chief of the narcotic division of the Department of Pensions and National Health was appointed as Canadian representative in 1934, and is at the present time chairman of this committee, and has for years proceeded to Geneva at least annually, at the expense of the Department of External Affairs of the Canadian government. He is at the present time acting in the capacity of chairman of the narcotic division of the League of Nations at Geneva, having been sent there by the government.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, I wish to express my grateful appreciation of the statement the minister has just read; for I had intended as a matter of privilege to make some statement in view of the use of my name very frequently last evening, and the charge made against me of personal responsibility for codeine being purchased by people in this country.
I desire to add just this word to what has been said. The services of Colonel Sharman, who is chief of the narcotic division of the health department, have been so highly spoken of by the League of Nations that it resulted in his being appointed chairman of a special committee dealing with narcotics, and, as I understand from the minister, he is now in Geneva.
During the time we were in office the Department of External Affairs saw to it that Canada was represented at the League of Nations, and Colonel Sharman discharged his duties in a manner that brought to us warm commendation upon his efforts and his appointment. I resent the idea of being charged personally with responsibility for the acquisition by
League of Nations
people of the habit of using dangerous drugs, simply because I happened for a time to hold office.



LEAGUE OF NATIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr.  J. S. WOODS WORT II@Winnipeg North Centre: Mr. Speaker, according to
the press Geneva has been considering the question of sanctions. May I ask the Prime Minister to state whether in the recent discussions Canada voted in favour of a continuance of sanctions against Italy?


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: In reply I would say to
my hon. friend that Canada is not a member of the council and therefore did not have a vote in the matter.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: May I ask, since
there has been consultation between the British empire and the dominions, what is the attitude of Canada in regard to the question of continuing sanctions against Italy?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: So far as I
am aware, there has been no consultation in respect to the matter to which my hon. friend refers.


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I ask one
other question, whether the Prime Minister will shortly inform the house as to what the attitude of Canada is in regard to the continuance of sanctions against Italy?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have already intimated that when we come to discuss the estimates we have still one item relating to the League of Nations, and at that time questions with reference thereto may be asked and will be answered so far as circumstances and information available will permit.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Does the Prime
Minister intimate that no opportunity is to be given this house to discuss this matter before the estimates are under consideration? That was not my understanding the other day.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.



PUBLIC BUILDINGS-COAL

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the member
for Royal (Mr. Brooks) inquired for a return regarding contracts for a supply of coal to dominion public buildings in the maritime provinces in the year 1935-36. I may say that the return involves several departments, and
League of Nations

as the information must come from outside Ottawa it may still take a few days before the return is completed.
COPYRIGHT AMENDMENT ACT On the orders of the day:


Mr. H. E. WILTON (Hamilton West):: May I ask the Secretary of State (Mr. Rinfret) when he intends to proceed with Bill No. 55, to amend the Copyright Act, which received its second reading about three weeks ago? If permissible, I should also like while on my feet to call the attention of the Minister of Finance-


Walter Edward Foster: Order.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I answer my hon.
friend by saying he will be advised in the usual way as to the order in which the different measures will be taken up. It is not possible to indicate at this stage what may be taken up possibly some days or even weeks hence.
SALES TAX ON AUTOMOBILES On the orders of the day:


Herbert Earl Wilton: Mr. Speaker, I should like to take this opportunity of calling the attention of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) to a telegram which I received yesterday from the automobile dealers of Hamilton. I believe a similar telegram was sent to the minister. They are complaining about the sales tax being imposed on automobiles which were purchased prior to the bringing down of the budget. In other words, they object to the tax being made retroactive, and they ask if something cannot be done to relieve them of what they regard as a burden.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance): I have received several such telegrams.



SUPPLY-LEAGUE OF NATIONS STATEMENT OF MR. WOODSWORTH ON MOTION OF MINISTER OF FINANCE

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
['Another question that should be touched upon, as the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) suggests, when the item comes up again, is that of continued maintenance.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported.\t1']
James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. Speaker, before you
leave the chair I should like to refer once more to the question I put a few moments ago with reference to the situation at Geneva. Some days ago I asked the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) if he would afford an early opportunity for the house to discuss-the (Mr. Rinfret.]
present world situation and our attitude toward the League of Nations. He intimated that he was willing to do so, but apparently to-day he has altered his decision. He suggests that there will be an opportunity to discuss this matter when the estimates of the Department of External Affairs are being considered. In years past, however, these estimates as a rule have been presented very late in the session. I think I am correct in stating that for the last two years there has been no discussion on external affairs estimates.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We held them open to give you a chance.


James Shaver Woodsworth: They were held open on one occasion, but last year there was a switch in the estimates late one evening, of which no notification was given beforehand, and some of us who were interested in discussing these matters had no opportunity of doing so. I do not say this by way of reflection on the previous government or even on the present government; I say it simply to emphasize the fact that on the whole the house has not taken any very great interest in external affairs.
Perhaps it may not- be quite fair to precipitate a debate of this kind without giving hon. members an opportunity for preparation. The government certainly should be given an opportunity to make a careful canvass of its own position. I would not have introduced this matter to-day were it not for the fact that the Prime Minister apparently is determined to give the house no information whatever as to the foreign policy of the government at this very important crisis in world history.
I do not think it is necessary to review the events that have taken place within the last few weeks in Europe. Some people seem to think that Europe is so far away from us that we need not worry a great deal. As the Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) reminded us the other day, the last war is still with us and still offers one of the main budgetary factors to be considered. Only a. few moments before I came down to the chamber I was interviewed by one of the victims of the last war, something which I have no doubt happens to many hon. members from time to time. All this is saddening. But surely it should mean consideration of policies for the future.
The world situation as it is to-day is too important a matter to be passed over so easily. I am not suggesting that the Prime Minister or the members of the government are indifferent to the matter; I am sure it must be

League of Nations
causing them a great deal of worry,, but the fact is that the government ought not alone to decide the most important matters of public policy. We spend weeks going into great detail on matters which have been determined already, such as the trade treaty between Canada and the United States; surely we can devote one day to a discussion of foreign affairs. I would remind the house that we are not without responsibilities in this regard. As a member of the League of Nations we are committed already to the league and apparently to a program of sanctions. In view of the situation that has developed, I think it is only reasonable that we should know what is the attitude of Canada at this time of crisis.
This is not a secret which must be rigidly maintained within the confines of the cabinet itself. Occasionally I see dispatches from England stating that the British House of Commons has discussed freely certain government policies with regard to foreign affairs. I think that is only right. If war or disaster of any kind comes upon this country, the people will be forced into service. They have the right to know beforehand what are the policies of this government and what we are heading for.
I think most citizens of Canada, in fact most citizens of the leading countries of the world, have been greatly perturbed over the failure of the League of Nations in this Italo-Ethiopian affair. The league has been regarded as the bulwark of peace, and we have been told that we ought to rely upon collective security, but it would seem that the league as it is now constituted has failed dismally. It failed in the Sino-Japanese affair a few years ago; it failed in connection with the South American trouble, and it has failed in the most spectacular way in connection with Ethiopia. What are we going to do with regard to the situation? Are we to continue as members of a league tihat apparently will afford us no security against war in the future?
We know that this kind of failure is producing armaments on all sides. We know that England has abandoned her old idea of having comparatively small armaments and has begun to speed up the manufacture of armaments. This raises another question. What is our attitude towards Great Britain? Are we going to permit Great Britain to speak for us in the councils of the world? Are we to have no independent voice? Are we simply to acquiesce after the event and be expected to contribute our Canadian boys to forces that may be called up because of the possible bungling of British statesmen or because a political party that happens to be
in power to-day is pursuing a policy not in the interests of world peace? These are important questions for our Canadian people, too important to be passed over lightly.
I did not come prepared for this discussion to-day, and I think we should all be fully prepared when we consider this situation. I do not intend to ask the government to-day for a definite answer or to precipitate a general debate, but I cannot pass up the opportunity afforded by the motion to go into supply without stating my strong conviction that in the very near future the government should take this house into its confidence and tell us very clearly what the obligations of Canada now are with regard to sanctions; what the attitude of this country is going to be towards the League of Nations in the future, having regard to the failure of the league as now constituted to give us any security; and further than that, and I think even more important, what our attitude is going to be with regard to Great Britain herself in the new program of armaments which she has undertaken. Last of all, as we think of the preservation of our own country in the future, we should know where our own reliance is to be placed.
Some of us have tried from time to time when the estimates of the Department of National Defence have been under consideration to draw from the cabinet information of some sort as to what the general defence policy of the country is, whether we alone are to stand against all comers, whether we are to depend upon the United States or whether we are to revert to the older imperial policy and try to come under the wing of Great Britain, with all the advantages and all the disadvantages of that course, or whether some other course is possible. We ought to know these things, and to-day I would, if I might, give notice to the government that some of us at least will expect to discuss this matter in greater detail in the near future I would ask, therefore, that the government give us some opportunity in the near future- and I should prefer it according to regular procedure-to discuss this whole matter. The question is urgent. I do not think anything is to be gained by a pussyfooting polity.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: First of all may I draw my hon. friend's attention to the fact that I have in no way changed my position as to when a discussion should take place on any particular matter. I have always said that the government would seek to meet what it believed to be the convenience and the wishes of the house. I have before me the reply I gave my hon. friend the other day. On May 7 I said:
League oj Nations

The government naturally will seek to meet the wishes of the house. There have been reasons why we have thought it inadvisable just at this moment to bring on a debate on the European situation. We shall wish to consider carefully all matters that should be considered in that connection. There is however no desire to delay discussion if hon. members deem it advisable to have League matters debated at an early date.
I may be mistaken, but I believe that the great majority of members in this house as well as the great majority of the citizens of Canada are of the opinion that we shall be contributing more effectively to an amicable adjustment of the very difficult situation which faces European statesmen at the present time if we consider very carefully the time at which we enter upon discussion of that situation. I ask my hon. friend to consider what the effect of a discussion in this parliament two months ago, one month ago, two weeks ago, might have been upon the matters that are being discussed at Geneva and in London, at the present time. Would a discussion have been of assistance to those who are wrestling with these great problems which, it might almost be said, are the most critical the world has been faced with at any time? Has the government not pursued the wiser course, of proceeding as rapidly as possible with the matters which are of immediate concern to us here and which we feel should be considered first because of their great importance to Canada at present. We have adopted the course we have indicated because we believe it to be the best one to follow, all circumstances being considered.
I did say that when we came to a discussion of the estimates of the Department of External Affairs ample opportunity would be given for a discussion of all matters pertaining to the league, and one item was reserved for that purpose. I believe I am right when I say that it- is the view of the great majority of members of this house that it would be better not to enter too precipitately into a debate upon the European situation but rather to consider very carefully the time at which it would be best to take it up. The government will endeavour to select the best possible moment but while I say that, however, I wish to make it clear that I am not precluding any member from bringing on a discussion at any time he may wish. The fact that the hon. gentleman has made a speech this afternoon on the subject indicates that he has the right to speak at any time when the house is being moved into committee of supply or committee of ways and means. I believe, however, that the fact that other members have not followed his example in that regard is evidence that the house generally feels, as I

am sure the country feels, that the situation in Europe is very grave and critical and that great caution should be used on the part of members of this House of Commons with respect to discussions which may take place here on the European situation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: When the other afternoon the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) asked the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) to set aside a day for discussion of the relations of Canada to the League of Nations, I recalled that a few weeks ago the Prime Minister indicated to the house that when the External Affairs estimates were under consideration the fullest opportunity would be given for discussion. It is obvious that in view of the fact that questions must be asked and answered a much fairer opportunity for real discussion would be given by that procedure than would be afforded by making set speeches in the house with the Speaker in the chair, inasmuch as a good deal of information must necessarily be obtained as to what attitude has been taken by Canada at various times during the last few months in connection with the matters under consideration. For my own part I think the Prime Minister has discharged his duty to the house by making it clear that before the house rises there will be ample opportunity for us to be fully informed, through, as well, discussions in the country itself, of everything that is connected with the European situation.
I do not share the view of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, that discussion in this chamber is going to have any particular effect upon the world situation at large, nor do I share the Prime Minister's view in that regard. I realize that at the moment these matters are in the hands of the council of the League of Nations; that Canada is not a member of that council, and that any observations which might be made in this house, and which would embarrass an already embarrassed situation, would be, in my judgment at any rate, not only unsound but calculated to retard rather than to assist the accomplishment of the purposes and ends we have in view.
I feel quite certain that when the appropriate time comes-that is when the External Affairs estimates are under consideration- many of those at least with wihom I am associated will be glad to be informed of the progress of events and no premature or merely academic discussion with a view to determining in theory what we are or what we are not, what we should do or what we should not do, will advance the purpose we have in mind. Our effort must be to uphold the hands of those who are endeavour-

Supply-Indian Affairs
ing to maintain the peace of the world, and I believe that view is held by every member of this house and by the people of Canada at large. How best we may do that is a matter which might admit of differences of opinion. Hon. gentlemen on this side of the house may hold an opinion which is wholly in accord- with that held by gentlemen on the other side, and it may equally be that opinions held by various members on the other side differ one with another. In the same way there may be differences of opinion among members who sit on this side of the house, because it is obvious that this question never can be, at least it never should be, a matter of party difference. These matters far transcend party differences; they have to do with the very fabric of our social and economic life and with the peace, happiness and prosperity of individual citizens, regardess of their views or beliefs as to politics, religion, economics or any other question. I am certain that we shall all approach the discussion of the problem with an open mind and with the desire not hastily to prejudge it by any statement which is made in this chamber, because more importance will attach to what we say in the house than to what we say outside it, and no statement should be made here which could be construed as, on the one hand, in any sense provocative, or on the other, as unduly optimistic. We must remember that we are merely trustees, upon whom a certain measure of authority has been conferred by the people as a whole.
In dealing with international questions this parliament is not in the position of the British Foreign Office, though that department, it is to be observed, endeavours to divorce itself from political considerations when discussing problems affecting the welfare of the nation and the empire. We must endeavour to deal with these issues in a manner which will demonstrate that in so doing we are without party bias. After all, a Prime Minister is seized of information that we have not, and in the very nature of things, as I have frequently said when my view's were not very highly regarded by those who now sit on the treasury benches, he must accept responsibility for determining whether or not it is in the public interest -not party interest-to precipitate a discussion of questions which affect the welfare of the nation as a whole. I do not frequently give my confidence to the government, but I believe that, in delaying for the moment a discussion of the position of Canada with respect to the League of Nations and our
relations to other nations in regard to the present European situation, no Prime Minister with a sense of proper responsibility would do other than give to the problem the best judgment he could, and when he advises the house that in his opinion the public interest will be best served by delaying any discussion of that kind, I for one am prepared to accept his statement.


Ernest Lapointe: May I say a word in support of the stand taken by the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett)? The council of the league is naturally seized with the question; it is a very difficult problem, so complicated and so fraught with danger that even they, with the information they have, have thought it better to adjourn, until some time in the month of June, any discussion of the matter. Surely if they could not do otherwise, we in this house are not in a position to do better than those who are assembled at Geneva. In the second place, we are not members of the council. When a decision is reached there, it will be time enough for Canada to take a stand as to following the decision and accepting the views of the council, or refusing t.o do so. I appreciate the earnestness and the sincerity of my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), but I am sure he will agree with us that for the present it is better to let the matter be discussed over there, without bringing before the house material which might make the situation more difficult.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and the house went into committee of supply, Mr. Sanderson in the chair.
. SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
Project Already Undertaken
To provide for completion of the Qu'Appelle Indian hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle, Saskatchewan, $30,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: These are supplementary estimates?


Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Superintendent General of Indian Affairs):: Yes.


Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: Would the minister give us a little more detail with respect to this $30,000 vote? Is it an added amount needed to complete the building-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, it is not an added amount. Ordinarily this would have been expended under the Public Works Construction
ltEVISED EDITION
Supply-Indian Affairs

Act. Following March 31, this is the amount under the new vote. As I explained the other day with respect to some other estimates, this is required to complete the building.


Ernest Edward Perley: When will the building be completed and ready for opening?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In the near future. I understand they are waiting for the completion of the arrangements for a water supply.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: Is any provision being made to assist the Nanaimo hospital to provide an Indian wing? I addressed the minister in that connection some time ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no provision under this item, which deals only with the completion of the hospital at Fort Qu'Appelle.


James Samuel Taylor: Will the minister state if he intends to make any provision for the purpose I have mentioned?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That may be considered under another item. I will answer the hon. member at that time, after this item has passed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Other Projects
To provide for repairs and improvements to government buildings and new buildings, and assistance to building projects relating to Indian administration, $135,708.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Will the minister give us particulars of this item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This item, as stated, is to provide for repairs and improvements to government- buildings and new buildings, and assistance to building projects relating to Indian administration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What new buildings?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a new agency
office building at Caughnawaga reserve. There are repairs to agency buildings in Quebec, I am not at the moment able to give particulars of those.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The question was as to the new projects.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In Manitoba there are
repairs to the Swan Lake home, farm and buildings. There is a combined office building and store house at the Fisher River Indian reserve, also an expenditure for a new agency residence at Norway House. There are proposals for a new office at The Pas Agency, some improvements at the Battle-ford agency, the Carlton and Crooked Lake and Duck Lake agencies. In this vote might

also come the point raised by my hon. friend from Nanaimo (Mr. Taylor). All the details of this vote have not been worked out, but it is contemplated that where arrangements can be made assistance may be given in the manner suggested by my hon. friend. I cannot at the moment state whether that will apply to his particular instance or not, but I can tell him that it will have the fullest consideration. We have been asked for assistance in several cases in extending hospital facilities for the care of Indian patients. I am not at the moment in a position to say precisely where that action will be taken, but I can assure the committee and the hon. member that it will be taken according to the best judgment of the officers of the department and myself.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister mentioned new buildings and improvements in the Crooked Lake agency. Can he state whether that is a new residence for the agent, or what is it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that it is a house for the agent of that reserve.


Mr. NEILL:: In connection with the matter he mentioned to the hon. member for Nanaimo, is the minister fully informed of the representations made to him in connection with the hospital at Tofino?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, we have full information on it, but as I said a moment ago I am not in a position at the moment to say what particular hospitals will be assisted. That requires a good deal of care and examination into all the relevant circumstances. It is the intention that this money shall be spent where it is most needed and will do the most good, according to the best judgment of the officers of the department and myself.


James Samuel Taylor: For years the existing hospital at Duncan has been taking care of these Indians; the situation is really desperate and the necessity for building and enlarging is due in large measure to the need for special provision for the Indians. The request has gone forward to the minister's department, and I shall be glad if special consideration is given to it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I assure my hon. friend that it will have full consideration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the erection of Indian schools, $70,700.
Mr. SENN:: Will the minister give some explanation of this item, and where these schools are located or to be located?

Supply-Indian Affairs


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The points at which these Indian schools will be erected, as given me by the officers, are as follows: Restigouohe Indian day school. This school is located on the Restigouohe Indian reserve, No. 1, Bona-venture, Quebec.
The next is in Ontario at Christian Island, and one at Rabbit Island, and one at Matta-gami and one at Seine River.
In Manitoba there is one at Poplar River, one at Deer Lake, one with a rather peculiar name, Uponcashing, one suggested for Sandy Bay; there is some difference of opinion with the authorities as to whether or not a day school should be erected there.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is that the one where
they want a boarding school?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They have a boarding
school now, but it is pretty well out of date. I am inclined to think the boarding school is what they need, but we have not funds for it this year.
In Saskatchewan it is proposed to erect one at Montreal Lake. There is another at Ahtahkakoops; I do not know where that is located.
In British Columbia it is proposed to erect at Bella Bella, an Indian school building, another at a place with an unpronounceable name, Gitladamicks, and another at Kitselas.
In the Northwest Territories there is one at Fort Ray.
These are the points where the officers of the department, after going into the matter, have suggested that these schools should be built. I should say that personally I have not had an opportunity to review all these particular cases, and there may be some local circumstances that might change the decision, but these are the proposals at the present time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The sum of 370,000 will
not go very far in building all these schools, will it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, they are all day
schools.


Alan Webster Neill: I would suggest that the
department think seriously before they start a policy of abandoning or departing from the policy of boarding schools in favour of day schools, although of course the minister did not exactly indicate that. I heard some mention, before the present government came into office, that that was the idea among the officials. As far as the west coast of British Columbia is concerned this would be a great mistake. I have been long familiar with the situation and there is no question that the boarding school is the most successful method 12739-177J
of educating Indian children. I have seen children who have been ostensibly attending: day school for eight or nine years; yet they did not know the first words of English and could not add two and two together. It is not that they lack intelligence; it is that when they are at home in their villages they are allowed to do as they like. The father would never think of saying to a child: You go to school. It would be: Do you want to go to school? In addition, there is the constant moving about. Indians follow the run of the fish in the season and often move away to places where there is no day school. When they are put into a boarding school they are under constant supervision and do not go out except in the holidays. They get a first-class education, comparable with some of what our own children would get, and when they leave they have had thorough instruction and are _ able to make their way among the white people, working for canneries and so on. It is hardly right even to say it would be more expensive, because nothing is cheap that is almost entirely useless. It may be that in some of the big reserves on the prairies where they have settled communities, a day school is appropriate, but in a large part of the western portion of the British Columbia mainland and Vancouver island I earnestly hope that the government will continue to provide the boarding schools. The Indians now realize the benefits of the boarding schools. There was a time when they objected to parting with their children, as Indians naturally would. The children would be away months at a time and parents would not see them. However, they now realize the benefit of these schools, and my practical knowledge has been that more money spent on the day schools would be to a great extent so much money thrown away.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I believe I agree largely with the remarks of the hon. member. At the same time I must confess I have not yet had an opportunity to study the whole matter thoroughly. So far as I have been able to ascertain, the various churches under whose auspices many of the residential schools are conducted are, I believe almost without exception, in favour of residential schools, and for the reasons indicated by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni. When we were considering the estimates questions of cost were involved. I have had requests for the erection of residential schools, one of which, located in northern Mantoba, was destroyed in 1930. It has not yet been replaced.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We never had the money
to replace it.
Supply-Indian Affairs


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That has been the problem. There are instances where the church authorities entrusted with the conduct of many of the schools have suggested day schools to suit particular needs. I have not yet had an opportunity to make a thorough study of the different aspects of the question, and quite frankly I hesitate to give any judgment until I have had such opportunity. I understand the schools indicated in the estimate will render a definite service in the communities in which they will be built.


Alan Webster Neill: In fairness I must say that there is one service which these day schools render, however inefficient they may be otherwise. They are always under the control of churches, and they form a sort of recruiting ground for boarding schools in districts perhaps fifty miles away. Also, as a rule missionary work is done, and some elementary ideas in religion are taught. They do some good in that connection, but more particularly as a recruiting ground so that the children may be sent to boarding schools when they reach the proper age. But as to teaching them, in comparison with boarding schools the day schools are not in the picture at all.


Mr. McIVOR:: Having taught in an industrial Indian school I should like to give hon. members the benefit of my experience. There can be no doubt about the value of the surroundings in these schools. I noticed, however, that when the spring came and the tents of the older Indians were placed on the ground a feeling of restlessness would take possession of the children. Rules had to be made so that the children could not visit the tents, because if they did they had to be properly cleaned when they came back to school. It is a fact however that these schools have proved of great value in Saskatchewan. I taught in the school at Regina.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for construction of roads, bridges
and other engineering works on Indian reserves, $24,512.
Ernest Edward Perley: Crooked lake is on the north side of the Crooked lake agency. The reserve is on the south side of the Qu'Appelle valley, and contains some beautiful lakes. For the last fifteen or twenty years a number of campers have located on the south side of the lake. I believe some of them have leased small lots and built cottages. There is no satisfactory road to get to the cottages. The hill which must be descended is very dangerous, and any improvements which have been made on it have been at the expense of the cottagers and campers. At the top of the hill there is a good landing field,

and on Sunday afternoons it is a common sight to see four or five aeroplanes on the field. People come in from North Dakota and land their aeroplanes on the top of the hill, after which they go down to the lakes to fish and bathe. It is one of the outstanding beauty spots in Saskatchewan, and is worthy of development. The government is spending a large amount of money in the development of national parks, and I would ask the minister to investigate this beauty spot in the Qu'Appelle valley and ascertain whether or not it would be possible to have a road built to the lake. It would have to be about six miles long, and would run through the agency. Sometimes as many as a hundred cars visit the lake on a Sunday, and they must pass through the reserve. It is annoying to the Indians and to the agent to have people passing through the reserve, and this traffic no doubt interferes with the agency. When the Indian Act was amended two years ago there was a provision for the expropriation of land in a reserve for road purposes. If it was handed over to the provincial government, they might share some of the cost of building the road. The construction would be through a level section of country, and would not be expensive. I am asking the minister to give the matter consideration, and to ascertain whether some money could be spent to develop this beauty spot in Saskatchewan. The lakes are teeming with fish, and there are splendid bathing and boating facilities.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The representations made by the hon. member will certainly receive consideration. In looking over the suggested expenditures under the vote I find the work he indicates is not included, but it may be possible to arrange expenditures so as to meet his request. All I can say is that we will give the matter consideration.


Mr. GREEN:: I believe the minister has received a letter from the parks board of the city of Vancouver asking that his department clean up Kitsilano reserve, which is situated almost in the centre of the city. It is at the end of the Burrard street bridge, which connects the business district with one of the residential districts. There are no Indians on the reserve, nor have there been for about twenty-five years. There is considerable second growth, scrub timber, old stumps and garbage on the land, and it is really an eyesore. Furthermore it has been used as a hideout for criminals. I suggest the request of the parks board is reasonable, and federal authorities should get busy at once and have the reserve cleaned up. The

Supply-Interior-Parks
expenditure would not be great. This year the city of Vancouver is celebrating its golden jubilee, and it is most important that the work be done quickly. Has the minister made any provision for it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My deputy tells me that there is no provision under this vote for the matter my hon. friend mentions, which I understand is now the subject of correspondence with the city authorities in Vancouver. I do not know just what amount would be involved in my hon. friend's proposal, but I am afraid I cannot hold out much hope that any very considerable expenditure may be made upon it under this vote.


Howard Charles Green: If the minister will confer with his colleague from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Mackenzie) he will find that this is really a project that should be undertaken promptly. The amount involved would not be very large. I suggest that the department ascertain by wire what the cost would be, and the work might then be done within the next few weeks. The jubilee celebration opens on the first of July, and right in the city of Vancouver across from the Seaforth armoury you have this big Indian reserve. It is an eyesore and should have been cleaned up long ago. Certainly now is the time to do it; and I would ask the minister to look into the matter within the next few days and try to have the reserve cleaned up certainly before the end of June.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be very glad to look into it, but I would point out that we receive requests in very large numbers for work of one kind and another-schools, roads, hospitals and everything else associated with the Indian department-and we have only a certain amount of money to spend. We try to spend it where in our judgment it can most usefully be spent. I shall, however, consider the request made by my hon. friend, and if we can find a little cash out of this vote with which to make the beautiful city of Vancouver a little more attractive to the countless numbers who will probably visit its jubilee celebration, we shall be glad to do so.


Howard Charles Green: I do not suppose a similar situation exists anywhere else in Canada. It is really ridiculous. There you have an Indian reserve in the centre of the third largest city of the country, and certainly it should be kept in proper condition.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Projects Already Undertaken National parks-
Administration building at Banff, Alta., $38,000.
Other buildings - construction and repairs, $115,500.
Landing fields-construction, $5,000.
Municipal services-construction, improvements and extensions, $27,500.
Recreational areas-extensions and improvements, $9,200.
Roads-construction and repairs, $109,000.
Townsite development - Kootenay park, $2,500.
Engineering supervision and general, $12,500.
Relief-permanent residents of the parks,
[Stage Direction]
Relief-single homeless men, $50,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: My information is that the last item of S50,000, for the relief of single homeless men, has all been spent, and that the S102,000 for relief of permanent residents of the parks was spent when the winter was over. The money for engineering supervision is nearly all spent, and the amount for road construction and repairs was largely expended last fall. I know that the administration building at Banff is practically completed, as well as other buildings and parks throughout the country that were under contract. I think most of them have been completed. How much of this item of $471,200 is unexpended? I should be surprised if there was much of it left.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: This covers projects already undertaken under the Public Works Construction Acts.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know; that is what I am talking about.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: These are the amounts required to meet the expenditures as from the first of April.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am afraid, Mr. Chairman, that is hardly the fact.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is the information
my officers give me.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think they had better
look at it again. For instance, take the last two items, S102,000 for relief, permanent residents of the parks, and $50,000 for relief, single homeless men. There was an order in council that appropriated a certain amount of the money under the Public Works Construction Act to the Department of the Interior for these two purposes, and that money was expended during the winter. These are projects that are already undertaken. I want to know how much of this money is
Supply-Int erior-Parks

unexpended, because these are estimates for the year ending. March 31, 1937, and they have already been included in the public works items. The money has already been voted once for that purpose by parliament. The auditor general has been making payments on the authority of the Public Works Construction Act, and these payments the Department of the Interior had placed at its disposal within the provisions of the act under an order in council by which certain sums of money were set aside for certain definite purposes. The money has been spent and cheques have been issued by the department-. The auditor general is charging them up against the appropriation. I am asking how much of that money is left at this time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Under the Public Works
Construction Acts of 1934 and 1935, there was $570,300 unexpended, S168,000 under the 1934 act and $402,300 under the 1935 act.


Richard Bedford Bennett: At what date?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: March 31, 1936.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But since then, within
the last two months, we have spent money on that account, and that is what I want to know about. Relief has been paid in the parks, to my knowledge, and likewise expenditures have been made on the administration building under contract at Banff and on buildings at other points.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The only thing paid subsequent to March 31 out of the votes under the Public Works Construction Acts of 1934 and 1935 are bills that were due by March 31 or progress estimates made at that time. The amounts necessary since then to complete these various projects already undertaken are in this Vote. The decision was reached by the government, whether wisely or not, not to continue payments on these projects under the Public Works Construction Acts subsequent to March 31, 1936, and consequently it was necessary to include in these votes the amounts estimated to complete the various undertakings. That is the explanation of these items. With reference to the last two items, $102,000 for relief of permanent residents of the parks, and $50,000 for relief of single homeless men, to which my right hon. friend referred, these are largely estimates. The last item in the vote is to cover relief requirements for April and probably May. The other one is for the present fiscal year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It could not be the
present fiscal year because these are projects already undertaken. The minister cannot say that there is a project already undertaken in connection with relief for the fiscal year beginning April, 1936, and ending March, 1937.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Technically, my right hon. friend may be quite right, but I am informed that the vote is to care for these relief requirements during the present fiscal year. I may say that I hope to get the relief costs in these parks down very substantially for the next winter season.


James Samuel Taylor: Has the minister anything to disclose in connection with the Ivy's Green area north of Ladysmith? At one time this was an Indian reservation, but there is no residence on it now and the Ladysmith people have petitioned to have this area made a park.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as I am aware there is before the parks branch no such request as that referred to by the hon. member.


James Samuel Taylor: For many years they have been using this area as a park, but commercial interests have been trying to secure it for oyster beds.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as I am aware no request has come into the parks branch for the establishment of a park in that area.


James Samuel Taylor: What would
be the attitude of the minister should the people of Ladysmith ask that this be set aside as a park?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think it would be scrutinized very carefully indeed.


James Samuel Taylor: Would a commercial application be scrutinized more carefully?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, I would not say that it would.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am very grateful to the minister for the clear explanation he gave in connection with item 320, but he will observe that that part of the actual vote of $471,200 which is represented by progress estimates or certificates of expenditures made before March 31 must be deducted. I do not know whether he has these particulars before him, but it is obvious that the amount will thus be reduced. First of all the item is practically $570,000; you expend $100,000,

Supply-Interior
which leaves practically $471,000, and from that stands to be deducted all progress estimates and any expenditures which are certified as having been made anterior to March 31, 1936. I just wanted to know if the minister had any idea how much this was.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the amounts mentioned here are the estimates which are necessary in the judgment of the officials of the department, after making allowance for payments and progress estimates under the Public Works Construction Acts.


Alan Webster Neill: The hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Taylor) represents the riding next to mine. I have the greatest respect for him, but I must endorse what was said by the minister when he told the committee that he would consider with a great deal of care an application for a park in the area referred to by the hon. member. I hope I shall not be accused of selfishness when I suggest that the place to put this park is in the district of Comox-Albemi. The parks board has already four mountain parks in British Columbia; they do not need any more of that type, but what they do need is a park on the beach level to accommodate, not only tourists from the United States, but our own men and women from the prairies who have been suffering from the high altitude. A beach park in British Columbia would permit these people to have even a brief holiday at low altitude. I do not know whether there is such a park in Canada; there certainly is not one in British Columbia. Such a park is needed to round out the policy of having parks indicative of the various portions of the dominion.
I had the privilege of a conversation with a member of the parks board to whom I outlined this idea. I shall not go into the details of where this is, but the area I have in mind is ideal for the purposes. It is only a - small area, but there is nearly a mile of beach composed of very fine sand with no stones. It is quite shallow so that the water gets warm enough for bathing and is safe. It is close to the public highway and it would not be necessary to expend large sums to construct a road. We know what the department expends in making roads into some of the interior parks in British Columbia. There is some very good trout fishing close by to provide entertainment for the older people. Behind the beach is grass with a number of scattered trees, something very near to the general idea of an English park. The whole area could be obtained on very reasonable terms. The acreage is comparatively small, but it is ample for the purposes. I know it has been the policy of the department in years gone by,
and no doubt it still is, to get a beach of this kind and I know of no other beach in British Columbia that can be obtained, except at an enormous cost.
There is one in my district which I should like to advertise, a place called Long Beach, but the conditions are not so ideal. The water is colder; there is an undertow and the area is more difficult of access. In years to come it will be developed as a scenic resort, but this other place to which I refer is easy of access now. A man could leave Vancouver in his own automobile at eleven o'clock in the morning and be in this park at three o'clock in the afternoon. I have an intimate knowledge of this area. I know nothing whatever against it as a park and I believe it has everything in its favour. I heartily commend it to the parks branch and the minister. As I say, other sites have been put forward, but I do not know of any as perfect as this one. It is close to the highway; electricity is available and everything is there to make it a perfect park.


Mr. STIRLING:: Where are the landing fields to be constructed under this vote.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The landing field at Banff national park which was partially constructed will be completed under this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Forest service-water supply system, building construction and repairs at Petawawa and Acadia forest experiment stations, $3,500.
Richard Bedford Bennett: This is to complete the water supply systems?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Certain work was undertaken.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Northwest Territories -[DOT] continuation of development and improvement of landing fields and air harbours, $9,800.
Richard Bedford Bennett: What is being done in the Northwest Territories under this item? I remember that under the Public Works Construction Act provision was made for certain work, which was undertaken by the Department of the Interior, but I should like to know what work was actually started, which requires $9,800 to complete.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The landing fields and air harbours to be improved are at Fort Smith, Resolution, Hay River, Providence, Simpson,
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Laird, Norman, Good Hope, Arctic Red River, McPherson, Aklavik, Cameron Bay and Rae. It is in connection with the completion of the work at the points I have mentioned.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What harbours are provided for seaplanes?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that half of them are seaplane bases.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister referred to air harbours.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Air harbours and seaplane bases are the same thing.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know that. I want to know what harbours have been provided for. Harbours are equipped of course for the purpose of permitting seaplanes to come to rest, and landing fields are entirely different. But I wanted to know what harbours had been provided for.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are ten hydroplane bases and three winter landing fields.


Richard Bedford Bennett: All mentioned?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Yukon Territory-highways, bridges, landing fields and air harbours-construction and repairs, $65,000.
Howard Charles Green: What taxes are levied by the Yukon territorial council? I believe they levy some taxes for certain purposes in the Yukon.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There are taxes levied for local purposes and that is supplemented by the grant from the federal government so as to give them sufficient to carry on their administrative work and do other necessary work.


Howard Charles Green: If the old age pension scheme were made effective in the Yukon territory, where would the money come from? Would that money be raised by the Yukon territorial council or would it come from the dominion government? As the minister knows, the provinces pay one quarter of the old age pension. If the scheme were made effective in the Yukon, where would that one quarter come from?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It would come from the territorial government, and I assume in the last analysis it might really be provided for by the federal government.


Howard Charles Green: The federal government would really have to pay the whole shot.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is federal government territory.


Howard Charles Green: That would not come out of local taxes raised by the Yukon council.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I could not say, speaking offhand.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Other Projects National parks-
Buildings-construction and repairs, including buffalo abattoir, $20,000, $100,000.
Forest and game conservation works, $25,000.
Municipal services-construction, extensions and improvements, $25,000.
Recreational areas-extension and improvements, $25,000.
Roads-construction and repairs, including Glolden-Revelstoke highway and improvements to main tourist routes from international boundary to Banff, Yoho and Kootenay parks, $850,000.
Townsite development, $25,000.
Wharves and beach protection works, $13,200.
Development of new parks-maritime provinces, $140,000.
Miscellaneous, $25,060.
Richard Bedford Bennett: This item includes one detail which we are not yet in a position to discuss inasmuch as we have not made any provision for new parks in the maritime provinces. The late government felt that the mari-times had a claim to national parks but the financial position was not such as to warrant the expenditure. That phase of it I think will have to be discussed. It involves the expenditure ultimately of many millions of dollars for upkeep and, as I say, we did not feel that we could do it. In view of the picture disclosed by the minister I desire to discuss that item at some length. As there is yet no provision for the parks that item will have to stand. The other detail can be dealt with. I would ask the minister whether there is still standing in the main estimates an item with respect to parks which would enable me to discuss one matter I desire to bring to the attention of the committee. I could do it then.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: None of our parks estimates in the main estimates is through.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Under those circumstances I will not discuss now an item which I wish to deal with in connection with electricity in western Canada, at Banff. I can do that when the main estimates are before the committee. Perhaps the minister would give us some idea of what he has in mind in connection with buildings, especially as to the necessity for spending 120,000 on a building in which to kill buffalo. That work heretofore has been let out by tender. Apparently we are now to start in the slaughter business ourselves. Are we going to sell the carcasses, or is it intended to continue the tender system of disposing of them?

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: I suppose we shall continue the tender system, which has been followed in the past. This item is inserted for the reason that the abattoir which was in the buffalo national park was destroyed by fire last November. The result was that, not having tihe facilities, we were unable to slaughter buffalo. This is merely to replace the building that burned down.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Some were shot at Wain-wright at one time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not profess to have
expert knowledge of the subject but I know that the slaughter house which had been there for several years burned down last November. This item is to replace that building.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What other buildings
are in mind in connection with that item?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is a fire hall at
Jasper, a community hall addition at Prince Albert, and the rest of the vote is for similar structures of various kinds required for administrative purposes, recreational areas and camp grounds. I cannot give the details.


Grote Stirling: Can the minister give
some information with regard to what is usually known as the Big Bend highway, the Golden-Revelstoke highway referred to here? What portion of the 8850,000 will be spent there? Is the work proceeding at the present time? Is the eastern leg of it quite completed and the bridge built? Is the minister proposing to proceed with the western leg to Revelstoke?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As regards the eastern leg of the Big Bend highway, it is pretty well on to completion; I am advised it is estimated that about 870,000 will complete the east leg of the road. On the western leg, which is a much more expensive part, comparatively little work has been done. I am informed that something a little in excess of a quarter of a million has been spent on it by this department. The estimated cost of completing that western leg is almost 82,000,000. That is a matter which I hope to discuss with the Minister of Public Works for British Columbia, who is in the city at the present time. I think the federal government is committed to complete that project.


Grote Stirling: "Is committed"?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no formal agreement to that effect.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, but we said we would do it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is the deduction to be drawn from letters and telegrams.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We said that if they did not, we would do it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I was not aware of that. Might I ask my right hon. friend if there was a limit as to time?


Richard Bedford Bennett: No. This is the position. The minister will recall that there is outstanding an agreement between the province of British' Columbia and the dominion whereby the province was to contribute to the cost of the completion of the highway in that area which was within the provincial boundaries; we were to pay the entire cost until it came up to a certain point. Unfortunately the province felt that they were not in a financial position to do their share, and we decided that, inasmuch as this road must be completed if we are going to complete the [DOT] highway through to the coast, we would advance the money for that purpose even though we ourselves had to oversee the construction work. The Prime Minister of British Columbia represented to us his inability to secure funds for the purpose, although they had ample with which to construct the bridge across the Fraser river. Apart from that, we concluded that inasmuch as this was a national undertaking, and that it would be blocked entirely if the road were not finished, we should assume the obligation. There remains to be built a small extent of road linking the extreme westerly side of the road on the east side that is now completed, and the completed portion on the coast side, and until that gap is filled up you have no road at all. That is the story in a nutshell. I think we told Mr. Pattullo that we would try to make the necessary advances to enable the work to be done. My memory is-and I speak in that regard entirely subject to correction-that we felt that as we were carrying on the work, and had the facilities, possibly we had better complete the work for them under the terms of the agreement; in other words, take their place for the moment under the agreement and complete the road. I speak guardedly with respect to that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What agreement does my right hon. friend refer to?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The original agreement made between British Columbia and the dominion contemplated the dominion undertaking a certain portion of the completion of that highway, and the province was to do its part. As a matter of fact the province did a certain amount of work, and then was unable to continue, but there has been no delay, because we have not completed, or had not completed when I was last informed of it, all the work on the east side. I understand
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from the minister that about $70,000 is still to be expended. I think everybody agrees that it is an extraordinarily fine piece of road. It was largely under the supervision of the gentleman who is now the deputy minister; that remark is not intended by way of compliment, but that is the fact with respect to that piece of road.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Boat Encampment is the apex of the road.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes. It was west of that where the province was to do the work. I think the minister must have in his files the original agreement made between British Columbia and the dominion.


Grote Stirling: Four or five years ago.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, four or five years ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Made by Hon. Charles
Stewart, I think, in 1929.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Quite so; and, I think, the government of Mr. Tolmie. At any rate this is the fact, that the province recognized there was a certain obligation outside the park area altogether. The minister realizes that this has to do with areas outside the park; that we are doing the park side of it on the east end. What is the last town that is the boundary of the park? Is it Revel-stoke?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The East leg ends at Canoe River.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is right. From
Canoe River west the obligation rested upon the provincial authorities.


Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: That is correct.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Their inability to finance led us to the view that, inasmuch as the work had to be completed if it was to be of any value, we should take over their position under the agreement. I think it was suggested that, inasmuch as we had been building the road under contract up to Canoe River, we might as well continue the work; but it was never agreed that the expense of the work should be borne by the dominion, if that is what the minister has in mind, and I was going to ask him to what extent this contemplates the completion from Canoe River west of the road so as to make it available for traffic.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I understand the history of this undertaking, the government that was in office prior to 1930 reached an agreement, through Hon. Charles Stewart, who

was then Minister of the Interior, to construct the east leg of the Big Bend highway, carrying it from Donald to the apex of the bend, which is known as Boat Encampment. That work has been very far advanced towards completion, and it is estimated that $70,000 will complete it entirely. A good portion of the money is required for a bridge over the Columbia river at the apex. So far as the west leg is concerned the arrangement perhaps may be as stated by the leader of the opposition.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am speaking only from memory. I have not seen the agreement for a long time.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, I think that may
be correct. The British Columbia government, according to my understanding, were to construct the west leg, but in 1935, by arrangements between the provincial government and the then federal government, the dominion assumed the responsibility of proceeding with the west leg. That will involve an expenditure altogether of about $2,000,000; I think $1,950,000 is the estimated amount required.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But there is no settlement of the question of financial responsibility.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My understanding is that that was to be done at the expense of the federal government. Am I correct in that impression?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Part of it was undertaken in connection with relief work. That part of it was charged against relief. But my memory is that no conclusion was arrived at with respect to the relieving of the province of its obligation to complete the west leg.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Oh, yes, there was.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There was, clearly, with respect to what was done under relief; we assumed all responsibility for that, but it was a question of whether or not we were to bear the cost of completing it.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: There
certainly was an exchange of telegrams and correspondence to indicate that that was the understanding.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I remember the discussion, but as I say-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The statement of the Minister of National Defence is correct. I think a reading of the communications exchanged

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between my predecessor in the Department of Interior and the Minister of Public Works and also the premier of British Columbia, in the summer of 1935, gives-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, I think that is so.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: -evidence that the expense was to be borne by the federal government. Now the question arises as to the time in which this was to be done. I can find nowhere any time limit as to when the work was to be completed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There was, I think, in the original agreement with the province.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as the east leg was concerned.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I thought, as to the west leg too.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that in the agreement covering the construction of the east leg there was a time limit. There is another important question which I might mention that has been giving me some thought. We have spent very considerable money-it would probably run to nine or ten million dollars-on the Banff park and parks adjacent.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is from their inception?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: From their inception.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I should think that is
right.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, I am informed that
the expenditure on the Banff park alone is somewhere between nine and ten million dollars.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Over a period of forty
years.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Last year the total number of American tourists' cars registered in Banff was, I think, 4,800. The difficulty in getting tourists from the United States to this very magnificent park-it is one of the finest in the world.-is the lack of good roads between the international boundary and the park. I have been told by different people from that section of the country who are aware of the circumstances that it is not an uncommon thing for American tourists, leaving their hard-surfaced roads south of the international boundary and entering Canada, to proceed a few miles on a gravel highway with dust and high wind, and then turn round and go back. One thing that has impressed itself on my mind
is the necessity of getting a type of road which will do away with the dust nuisance between the international boundary and Banff national park. If we could do that, probably we would increase the number of American tourists coming to Banff four or fivefold. The problem, of course, is to find the money to do this work. There is also the problem to which the leader of the opposition referred I think once before, the matter of getting an [DOT] arrangement with the provincial government concerning a road outside the park boundaries. We do not wish to be committed indefinitely to the principle of building provincial roads. That matter is one which should be considered very fully. I am not at the moment in a position to say more to the committee than this, that the question of getting dust-free roads into our national parks is receiving the careful consideration of myself and the officers of the department, and if some arrangement could be made we might for the time being at any rate cut down the expenditure on the west leg of the Big Bend road, use some of the money to get rid of the dust nuisance on the roads leading to the national park at Banff and adjacent parks, and thereby greatly increase the revenue that would come to the province and the country.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the minister has not given very great detailed attention to the matter for this reason: The number of points at which tourists enter Canada from the United States is considerable, and if you are going to take care of one you have to take care of all. For instance, there is the Waterton lake park; the tourists come in south of Lethbridge. That park is in just the same position, because you have there roads which are gravelled, as free from dust as you can get a natural gravel road built under the conditions under which those roads were built. Then, going further west you come to Macleod. The road from Macleod to Femie was built by the province of Alberta; it is not a hard-surfaced road, but is an excellent road with very little dust. From there it leads south to the international boundary. But when you get further west, the traffic being somewhat limited at the moment, those roads aTe filthy with dust. You cannot drive along them for more than a few miles without 'being choked with dust yourself and your car covered with it. Now, which of those are you going to take care of? Are you going to put a coat of some plastic material over the top of one, or two, or three? The claims, for instance, in con-
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nection with Waterton park, to which large numbers come from the United States, are very considerable. The reason there has been a falling off in the number of tourists visiting the Banff and Kootenay parks is very clear; it is because when people get in they cannot get out again without retracing their course. Remember, the distance from the international boundary to Banff park is substantially the same as the distance from the further west park, I do not know what name is given it now, whether they call it Kootenay or Yoho valley. In the United States there, are hard-surfaced roads to the boundary. The reason for the falling off in the number of tourists at Banff is that the road to Jasper is not yet completed, and the road west is not completed; they cannot get to the coast; they have to strike south from Kootenay park or whatever it is called. Part of the roads within the park are covered with some dustproof substance.
But my difficulty always was-and I think it is the difficulty the minister has-if you select one road, what about the others? They are so far apart that one road will not serve. It is no good to put a concrete surface or plastic material on the road from Waterton park south in the hope that road would serve that vast territory south of the park. There is a very fine park there in British Columbia, connected with the Banff park. There is a continuous road from Banff park into it, an excellent highway. What we were always hoping long before we were in office as a government was that that road would be put through to the coast so that the people who come to Banff would be able to get out by going through to the coast on this Big Bend highway. That is or shortly will be finished up to Canoe River, but if operations are discontinued there we shall not have the road any further advanced, because the road cannot be used unless that link is completed. The only way in which Canadians can get through to the coast now is to go south into the United States; that is made necessary by the incomplete state of the road on the west leg of the Big Bend.
The Minister of National Defence says that telegrams clearly indicate financial responsibility. I do not think it went as far as that; my memory is that we undertook to find 'the money to enable the province to do the work, and we made it clear that as far as relief work is concerned that would be charged against our own appropriation and the province would not be liable. But with respect to the balance of the work done in pursuance of the province's undertaking I do not think there is anything which makes

it clear that the money was not to be refunded by the province at some time. I would be surprised if it were so, but it may be that it is, because the British Columbia provincial authorities said frankly that they did not know when, if ever, they would be in a position to see their promise implemented.
I wholly agree with what the minister says, that something must be done to rid the parks of the dust nuisance. The highways leading to the parks, however, are completely under provincial control. For instance, people who come in from the south motor up on the Macleod highway to Calgary; there is no other way by which they can get into that park reasonably at the present time. That is not a hard-surfaced road. Once they get to Calgary the road from Calgary to Banff, which was very dusty, has been oiled. Shall we undertake to eliminate the dust nuisance all the way from Calgary to the boundary? I refer to the road from Calgary to Macleod and then from Macleod south. Shall we eliminate the dust nuisance on the road from Macleod west to Fernie? I motored from Fernie to Macleod on one occasion, and the dust was not as bad as I had expected, although it was still unpleasant. Shall we do that, and then shall we provide an oiled, hard or plastic surface on roads leading from the parks in British Columbia to the United States? If so, the task will be a tremendous one, and at once we will invite discussion and invidious comparisons will be set up. Statements will be made that one part of the country has been served and others have not. That has been the difficulty. I make these observations only by way of pointing out that one cannot get into Banff park with a motor car, as I understand it, unless he travels a substantial distance from the boundary, up to the park. At the present time Alberta is spending a large sum of money on the improvement of these roads.
This is equally true when we come to the province of Manitoba, because in that province there is the main highway from the park south to the boundary. No doubt the minister is familiar with the road to which I refer. A large sum of money was spent in an effort to make it free of dust. The Minister of Public Works for Manitoba pressed the necessity of spending $1,100 or $1,200 per mile for the purpose of eliminating the dust nuisance and attracting visitors to the park. I was astonished when I learned the number of people from the United States who visited the park in Manitoba. Then, there are other visitors from surrounding areas in the western provinces. The effort to eliminate dust will have to be on a most generous scale and cover a

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tremendous number of roads if the government is not to incur the resentment of others who are not thus served. That has been a Teal difficulty. I agree that if we are going to have people come to the country, we must do something to eliminate the dust.


Mr. STEVENS:: I am tremendously interested in this matter, because two of these parks are really in the constituency of Kootenay East, and Banff park adjoins. The three parks are close together and closely connected. Access from the American border to the Kootenay park, through Radium, gives access to all three parks. On the other hand there is the desire of tourists to return by some route other than the one by which they entered. There is no question that if they were given access to these three mountain parks they would visit them in large numbers. After all, Banff park, the oldest and most highly developed, together with Yoho and Kootenay parks, form the major portion and basis of our great parks system. Access could be given to these parks through Alberta, around by Calgary to Banff, and then through Kootenay park and the Radium area south to Kingsgate. I quite agree that a considerable distance is involved, and that it opens up the question of connecting other national parks with the international boundary. My own opinion is that we ought to adopt as a national policy the principle of giving access to our national parks to the great population south of the boundary line. Because, now that the motor car is used to such a large extent in tourist traffic, it is not sound business to provide inadequate facilities for automobile tourists. There was a time when the Canadian Pacific Railway gave virtually every access to Banff park, but that day has long since passed. To-day we have a great tourist traffic in which the automobile is the means of transportation.
Here is something which is being overlooked: every motor car which enters the park gates pays the sum of S2. When motoring around these roads I have had the opportunity of talking to scores of tourists, and, while I shall not use strong language, I shall be content with saying that they damn Canadian roads and declare they will never come back. There is no doubt that tourists go back to the United States and tell their friends not to come to Canada because our roads are bad. This is a real danger. I have motored many times along the road running south of Calgary, and also on other roads in that locality. Particularly in British Columbia in many places the roads run along the sides of the mountains, and the dust is so thick that motoring is dangerous; on occasions one cannot see for some time after he has met another motor car. One overtakes a car almost at the risk of his life, because in doing so he must pass through a cloud of dust.
I suggest that the minister be not deterred by the fact that there may be claims for roads to other parks, because I believe we should adopt this road building as a progressive national policy.


Mr MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: One in every province.


Henry Herbert Stevens: We could make it one in every province, and I would extend it until we had roads efficiently and effectively connected with international boundaries. After all, the tourist trade is a real industry, and is not as unimportant as we used to think it was in years gone by.
People particularly from the congested areas in Ontario and Quebec go in large numbers to the United States. They travel for the pleasure of motoring, and carry with them a certain amount of wealth that is left in that territory. Our hope is that we may draw from the great republic to the south of us, and thereby bring to Canada a substantial amount of wealth. Under present circumstances we cannot do it. From my intimate knowledge of the situation I am positive that we could not only double but quadruple-and possibly more than that-the traffic into our national parks. I believe the increase would be shown immediately after people in the United States learned that our roads were improved. Large expenditures would be necessary, but the number of cars that would come to Canada and the direct cash revenue to the parks that would result would in substantial measure meet the interest charges on the investment.
In securing access to Kootenay, Banff and Yoho parks on the west side, tourists must pass through the Columbia valley, a farming district almost as isolated as the Peace River country, and possibly one of the most isolated farming sections in Canada. In the summer months the tourist traffic forms a good market for local produce such as milk, butter and eggs. Increased tourist traffic would be a godsend to the farmers in the valley. I would urge the minister to give earnest consideration to this point.
With reference to the Big Bend highway, may I say that the dominion government staff or authorities have done a wonderful job on the east leg of the highway. I have been over it several times; I have watched with keen interest the progress made, and I want to repeat that they have done an excellent job. They have opened up a country that for beauty of scenery, hunting and sporting facil-
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ities, and general attractiveness is, I -think, unequalled anywhere in the whole mountain area of British Columbia. It is a marvellous country, and it will be a most attractive route for tourists, in addition -to the attractions of the parks.
Last year when I heard that the provincial government and the dominion government had come to an understanding about the west leg of that highway I was naturally pleased because it is highly desirable to complete that highway. Unfortunately the work which has been done by the provincial public works department in the years that have passed has not been of the standard set by the dominion government on the east leg; there is no question of that, and it will undoubtedly cost quite a considerable amount of money to put that stretch of roadway into good shape. But here again I emphasize this point. This is not money thrown away. It is a real investment. We who live in British Columbia know the number of tourists who come up in the summer to our province from the states along the Pacific coast, from the great state of California, in particular, and the states of Oregon and Washington, also Idaho, but I mention California particularly, because the Californians love to go north to British Columbia in the summer, and if you were in British Columbia in the summer you would observe on the roads throughout the province and on the streets of Vancouver probably three California cars, I think I am safe in saying, to every one of all the other states put together. I have no accurate figures but that is my impression, and I have observed carefully. We get a large number of Californians. They are attracted by the mountain scenery and the cool, green verdure of our parks and province, which furnishes such a contrast to the heat and glare of a California summer. Our people go south in the winter. There is thus an interchange of traffic. I want to make this point very clear to the minister, that when he is building or making dustproof-and that is the main thing-the roads from Kootenay park and Banff park, east and west to the boundary, or completing the Big Bend highway, the work must be considered as a form of national investment, which I believe will bring to the country excellent dividends commensurate with the effort made. I repeat what I said a moment ago, that I would not be deterred by the fear of demands from elsewhere because I believe that we should adopt it as a national policy to open up access to our great parks to American tourists from the south. It should

be a part of our general national policy. The item as it appears in the estimates naturally, therefore, gave me a great deal of satisfaction and pleasure, but I also think it is sound business to carry on this work.


Mr. McDONALD (Souris):: I would like
to suggest to the Minister of the Interior that under this vote of 825,000 for miscellaneous, a few thousand dollars be included for the peace garden, situated on the boundary between North Dakota and Manitoba immediately south of the town of Boissevain. Mr. E. F. Willis, member for Souris in the previous parliament, put on Hansard a very fine description of the beauties and value of the peace garden, which will be found at page 2340 of Hansard of 1933. For the information of the committee I might say that our American friends have so far spent about $100,000 on that garden, but we as a government have spent nothing yet.
I listened to the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) and the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) speaking of the value of the tourist trade, and again for the information of the committee I would like to say that the town of Killarney in the constituency I represent has the second largest number of entries for tourists who came through the port of entry south of that town. Many of these tourists no doubt were on their way to the Riding Mountain national park. It was proposed to spend 81,000,000 on this peace garden in Turtle mountains to perpetuate the peace that has existed between Canada and the United States for one hundred years. If that amount were spent, or if the sum of
85,000.000 which was first contemplated for building and endowing the garden were spent, it would draw tourists from hundreds and hundreds of miles. I would suggest to the Minister of the Interior that he include at least a few thousand dollars to get this thing started.
I am hopeful, and I believe I have good reason to hope, that the government is going to complete the road leading to the garden. There is a fair road there now, but I understand the government intends to complete it. When it is completed, and if the garden is built, it will be a wonderful attraction for tourists.


Howard Charles Green: I would like to make one or two suggestions to the minister in connection with the Big Bend highway. I think he would be making a big mistake if he placed more importance on feeder roads to the boundary than on the completion of the trans-Canada highway. After all, I think Canadians should come first, and Canadian tourists too,

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and if that gap on the west side of the Big Bend highway is finished we shall then have a passable trans-Canada highway from Vancouver to Fort William, I believe, but at any rate as far as Winnipeg. That point should not be overlooked. I think the Big Bend gap should be given first consideration.
There is also this fact. The hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens) has said that there are thousands of California cars coming up to Vancouver in the summer. They come up the Pacific highway. A great many more American cars come that way than come up from the states of Idaho and Montana, and I suggest that the very best source from which to draw American tourists would be to have them come up the Pacific highway and then over our trans-Canada highway into Banff park. But that can be done only by completing this western gap of the Big Bend highway, and I suggest that it should be given the preference. I hope the minister will not lose confidence in the trans-Canada highway.


Mr. BROOKS:: Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that the item for the development of new parks in the maritime provinces stands? I know that the leader of the opposition asked that it stand.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that my right hon. friend who leads the opposition raised the point that until the legislation creating these parks had been submitted to parliament it was inappropriate to discuss a vote to develop them. The item might stand if my right hon. friend wishes, and be discussed later.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: I notice there is an item here of $140,000 for the development of new parks in the maritime provinces, and in the press of the maritime provinces I have noticed that there is to be a park established in Nova Scotia. One article said that $100,000 was to be expended for that purpose, and that a national park was also to be developed in Prince Edward Island. I should like to know if a national park is to be developed in New Brunswick.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no vote contemplated to go ahead with a park in New Brunswick this year. Some examination was made, I think in 1934 of possible sites in New Brunswick. There is some difference of opinion as to the best location for a park in that province. I would point out something that I think is obvious to everyone acquainted with the situation. A park located in Nova Scotia or in Prince Edward Island
is bound to be of some benefit to New Brunswick because of the fact that tourists could reach a park in Nova Scotia only by travelling through New Brunswick.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, no, they come to Yarmouth in large numbers. There are ships specially adapted, running from New York to Yarmouth.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Then I am not correctly informed. Tourists from the New England states would come through New Brunswick and on into Nova Scotia. Some might ship their cars by ferry and avoid passing through the beautiful province of New Brunswick, but I think a large number would travel by road. In any case the question of a site in New Brunswick is yet to be determined, and in this connection further surveys will be made this summer.
I agree with one observation made by the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens). I think the tourist business is an industry and should be so considered. We have an investment of almost $30,000,000 in our national parks scattered throughout the different provinces. Both the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific have also spent large sums at Banff, Jasper, Lake Louise and other parks in providing hotel accommodation and general facilities for tourist traffic. The thing is to develop this traffic. If we could treble or quadruple the number of United States tourists coming to Canada within the next two or three years, the result would be a substantial contribution to general economic improvement.
This brings me to the question of roads. In the Glacier national park and in the Yellowstone national park the United States government has spent millions of dollars upon the construction of the best kind of hard surfaced roadways. Americans come up from the south to visit the Yellowstone park or the Glacier park. Having heard a lot about Banff, they make inquiries and find they can reach Banff in a day or a day and a half. They decide to come to Canada, but when they get on Canadian roads they find they are entirely different from those they have been travelling on in the United States. The result is that they get disgusted and discouraged and turn back, and we do not get their business.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That depends upon where they come in.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, it depends upon where they come in. Where tourists come up through
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California and proceed to Vancouver, the conditions are different. It would take them two or three days to get to Banff from Vancouver by road, but many of them would travel that road if it were completed. It has been estimated that the completion of this road will attract from 15,000 to 20,000 tourist cars per year. On the other hand, many of these tourists visit the United States parks in Montana immediately south of the Alberta boundary.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They come in by Water-ton park.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If we had sufficient funds we could build roads into all these parks, as has been suggested, but I recognize the importance of the point raised by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett). If you once begin to build roads from the international boundary into these parks it would be difficult to stop unless you wished to be charged with discrimination. On the other hand, there are certain circumstances that vary the conditions. Take the Riding Mountain national park, for instance in Manitoba. With the exception of a portion of the trans-Canada highway and the road leading from Winnipeg south to Emerson Junction, and some mileage east and north of Winnipeg, all our roads are gravel roads. The roads in Dakota are also of this type.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Manitoba roads are
better.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The roads in Dakota are
gravel and I believe they are inferior to the Manitoba roads. A tourist might arrive from Fargo or some point even further south and then decide to visit Winnipeg. He might then inquire as to parks and be informed of the Riding Mountain park, which he could visit. All this time he would be travelling over the type of road with which he is familiar, at least no worse and in many cases better than the roads in his own state. In my judgment this is the explanation for the large number of American cars which come into Riding Mountain park.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many went in there last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am told that over 100,000 tourists registered into the park. A large number of these would be Canadian, but many were American. This condition is changed completely when you consider the Banff park.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What number entered
Waterton Lakes park last year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have not that information at the moment, but perhaps I can get it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was just curious about
that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Undoubtedly a road from
Kingsgate into Banff would attract a lot of tourists from the south, because Kingsgate is only a little west of the GlacieT national park.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is the road into Kingsgate hard surfaced?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: You mean from the United States?


Richard Bedford Bennett: On the United States
side.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It is not completed, but
my deputy informs me that it is being hard surfaced.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The last time I was over it it was the same as ours.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: A tourist might decide to go from Kingsgate to Banff, or, if the Jasper road was completed, he could go on to Jasper. He could then come out by Edmonton. The chances are that after visiting Banff or Jasper he would go down through Canada and back home. I certainly do not want to make a mistake in judgment in connection with this matter, as it is important, but I am rather intrigued with the notion that if our roads were dustproofed from Kingsgate to Banff and from Banff to Calgary and down into Waterton Lakes park, a large number of American tourists would be attracted to Canada. They would have to travel considerable distances through our country. I do not wish to create the impression that there is any thought of abandoning the Big Bend road. At the moment it is merely a question where you can spend what money you have and obtain the best results, and I can assure the committee that that is the basis upon which this whole matter is being considered. I intend to discuss the question with the representative of the British Columbia government, who I understand is in the city at the present time, though I have not seen him. In the correspondence exchanged last year between the federal government and the government of British Columbia with respect to the completion of the west leg of the Big Bend highway, the suggestion was made to the province that the road from Kingsgate to Kootenay park should be properly maintained, and the British Columbia government gave a commitment, though a rather indefinite one, as to

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the amount of maintenance work they could do on that road. It was subject, they said, to two limitations: first, the amount of cash available, and second, the demands for similar road construction in other parts of the province.
I believe that the development of this tourist business offers a great opportunity to Canada. There is no question of the value of it in the economic sense.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In the international economic sense.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, as my hon. friend says, in the sense of our economic relations with the United States. When we get tourists to visit our parks we are exporting scenery, and it is- good business as rapidly as we can to provide facilities that will attract them to this country and induce them to stay as long as they reasonably can. That business is valuable to Canada, but I am firmly convinced that if we are to develop it one of the first considerations is the matter of dustproof roads from the United States into our Canadian parks. I realize as much as anyone in the house does the limitations, owing to our heavy expenditures in other directions, but I hope to work out a sensible plan whereby we can spend a certain amount each year and spend it in the most effective way. I would certainly welcome suggestions from any part of the house as to how that can best be done. My hon. friend from Souris (Mr. McDonald) referred to the peace garden which lies in his constituency. That is a matter of the first importance. The peace garden symbolizes a state of international amity between Canada and the United States that is one of the finest things we can contemplate. There is no provision in this vote for roads into the peace garden, but the completion of the road commenced last year is to be provided for in the projects that are being arranged for between the government of Manitoba and the Department of Labour. That I know has been the subject of discussion between representatives of the Manitoba government and the Minister of Labour.


Mr. MacKINNON (Edmonton):: The discussion that has developed has grown out of the consideration of an item for furthering the construction of the Big Bend portion of the trans-Canada highway along the Columbia river. A large number of the people of the prairie provinces-the central and northern parts of the prairies particularly-have their eye on a highway which they want to see built to connect them with the Pacific coast, from Jasper, the centre of the great Jasper 12739-178
national park. In this discussion I do not think it necessary to dwell on this natural ambition of the people of the prairie provinces, because we remember that the people who favour the construction of a highway from Jasper west to Vancouver recognize that it must link up with the highway in course of construction along the Columbia river. For that reason I am not pressing at the moment further consideration for the construction of a highway connecting Jasper along what is known as the Blue River route west from Jasper in the direction of Vanderhoof, south along the Canoe river or along the present right of way of the Canadian National tracks to a point on the Big Bend portion of the trans-Canada highway. That is a matter in which we are greatly interested in Alberta, in Saskatchewan and in the western provinces generally. I am induced to make these remarks particularly by reason of an observation made by the minister in referring to the motoring which a possible tourist would do in arriving at Banff. The hon. member who speaks on behalf of Banff may suggest that a highway is being constructed now from Banff to Jasper and that this will give us coast connections. That in itself will be a wonderfully scenic highway when completed, but in addition to that I would point out to the minister that we will request a highway west from Jasper direct to the main trans-Canada highway, along what is known as the Blue River route.


Alfred Johnson Brooks: The minister a moment
ago said that the national parks in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island would benefit the province of New Brunswick. I assume the idea is that it would satisfy New Brunswick. If that is the minister's opinion I wish to disabuse his mind at once because the people of New Brunswick would not be satisfied, nor would they be justified in being satisfied, with such an arrangement. There might be some benefit to the people of New Brunswick from a park in Nova Scotia and a little from a park in Prince Edward Island, but we would be only constructing roads for tourists to get to these other two provinces, and the amount of benefit to us would be very small. I hope that is not the intention of the minister; I hope the government does not intend to construct parks in the other provinces and neglect New Brunswick. If it is a matter of determining the site and the department cannot decide on a site I will willingly assist them. I think I could pick out one of the best sites in the province.

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Mr. COLDWELL:: The minister stated
that dustproof highways would be an attraction to what he called the tourist industry. I was wondering if the government had looked into the utilization of the tar sands of Alberta. Several years ago the Canadian Pacific Railway laid its platforms in the city of Regina with tar sands brought down from Alberta. I do not know whether or not that was an economical way of handling the tar sands, but I was discussing the matter at the time with an engineer, and he told me he thought that ultimately the tar would be extracted from the sand, mixed with local sand and utilized, and then it might be an economical project. If Alberta has vast deposits of tar sands-and I understand it has-and by cooperation with the dominion government a scheme could be worked out whereby this material could be utilized by the people of Canada as a nationally-owned resource, and if the project is economically feasible, I believe there is a possibility of getting dustproof roads.
While I am speaking on this matter may I add that in my opinion not only tourist traffic but the traffic of our own people from the southern parts of the prairie provinces to the northern regions would be greatly facilitated and improved if here and there, at one or two places where trunk highways cross rivers by means of ferries, bridges were built. I have in mind particularly the area from Swift Current north. At certain seasons of the year it is necessary, along that particular highway, to travel many miles out of the way around to the Elbow and there cross the bridge over the Saskatchewan river, although there is a splendid highway, No. 4, I believe, running straight north from Swift Current to North Battleford. We have a number of links of that description. It seems to me that if we are going to spend money for the encouragement of tourist and other traffic these gaps in our highways might well be considered.
However I rose to ask the minister, since he has mentioned the possibility of dustfree roads, if any consideration has been given to the utilization of the tar sands of Alberta.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In reply, I want to deal for a moment with the point raised by my hon. friend from Royal (Mr. Brooks). It is the
intention of the department to have a further investigation of New Brunswick made this summer with a view of locating a park site.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is a report on the subject now.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have a report now, but there is a difference of opinion on the report, and a difference of opinion in New Brunswick itself.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not in the department. They made the recommendation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend from Royal must also keep in mind that the province has to deed over to the federal government the whole park area that it is proposed to develop. That matter will receive consideration this summer. Whether or not an amount can be put into our estimates a year from now for the development of a park in New Brunswick depends upon factors, upon which I would not care at the moment to pass an opinion.
As to the other point, raised by my hon. friend from Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), experiments were carried on with the tar sands of northern Alberta, particularly in Jasper national park, and I think it can be said that these sands make a suitable hard-surfacing material. The difficulty is the cost of transporting the sands and the bitumen which they contain to the park areas where they can be utilized, or indeed for purposes of roads anywhere else. I understand, however, that lately a company has been promoted, has secured capital, and will undertake this year the separation of the bitumen from the sands in this tar sands area of northern Alberta.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And the oil?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: And also the oil. If that experiment works out-and apparently they have conducted their preliminary experiments to a degree where they have sufficient confidence in the enterprise to put capital into it- possibly supplies of material for hard-surfacing roads will be available from that source. At present the taking of this heavy untreated material from the northern part of Alberta, where it is located, is not practicable owing to the cost.


Mr. CLARKE (Rosedale):: With regard to the $13,200 for wharves and beach protection improvements, what section of the country are they in?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is mainly in the Prince Albert national park and Riding Mountain national park.


Mr. FAIR:: I wish to direct the attention of the minister to the great Wainwright Buffalo park. On the south side of this park we have good roads. On the north side there is a gravelled highway from Edmonton to Wainwright. But through the park we have no

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roads whatever, except a prairie trail which was fairly good for travel in the days of the old model T, but at the present time, when cars are being slung lower and lower, the bottom of your car, as you drive along, rubs on the road or you have to get off the road and drive over the prairie. For some time organized bodies around Wainwright have been trying without success to have a road constructed through the park. As hundreds of visitors from all parts of the United States and Canada visit this park every year, I believe that it would be good business to go ahead and put the road through from the north to the south. As the minister no doubt knows, Wainwright is also a great oil-producing centre. Facilities in that respect have been provided by the province through the construction of a gravelled highway. There is a good road on the south side, and the people of the district are very anxious to have a road through the park from north to south. I should like to see the minister give this proposal his attention.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The question of an appropriation for parks in the maritimes will depend upon the bill, and I think we should have something to say about that before we appropriate this item. I understand that it is to stand; there is something I desire to point out in connection with what has been said. I suppose the minister realizes, although nobody has pointed it out, that we cannot do a dollar's worth of work, in resurfacing or otherwise providing for dustproof roads belonging to a province, unless the province permits us to do so. The provinces own the roads, and when we talk about doing this or that it must be remembered that the roads are the property of the people of the various provinces, and we cannot deal with them without provincial consent. I do not intend at this time, because it is six o'clock, to get into a discussion of that matter. I merely point out that in the ultimate analysis the province is going to select the road on which we do the work. It is their road, not ours.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is right.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is for them to say whether or not we shall put tar on it. Therefore, when we talk about making dustproof roads to the boundary, Alberta will have the say as to whether it shall be the one at Water-ton park, or the one from Banff to Fernie.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Before the committee rises I just wish to say that I am quite aware of what the leader of the opposition has pointed out, and earlier in my remarks I intimated that this is one of the matters that I propose
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to discuss with the Minister of Public Works of British Columbia, who is in Ottawa at the present time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Another question that should be touched upon, as the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling) suggests, when the item comes up again, is that of continued maintenance.
Item stands.
Progress reported.	1



BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT


Ernest Lapointe: Mr. Speaker, I desire to lay on the table of the house correspondence with respect to the proposed amendment to the British North America Act.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Has the minister an extra copy for the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan)?


Ernest Lapointe: I have only one extra copy.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the minister will be able to let the hon. member have a copy to-morrow morning.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, May 14, 1936