1936-03-20

INDUSTRIAL AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. CAMERON R. McINTOSH (North Battleford) presented the second report of the standing committee on industrial and international relations and moved that the report be concurred in.
Motion agreed to.

Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I desire to lay on the table of the house a return asked for by the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart), namely, a list of all the persons who have written to the department asking for disallowance of the Power Commission Act, 1935, Ontario. As regards the other part of the order-those who have written to oppose it-the list is nil.



PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS


[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Mackenzie King:
That the standing committee on privileges and elections be instructed to inquire into, study and report on, the usages, customs and practices respecting the status of the Speaker of the House of Commons during the period of time which may elapse between any dissolution of the House of Commons and the assembly of a new parliament, and in particular the rights, prerogatives, privileges, jurisdiction and duties ordinarily and customarily exercised by the Speaker under such circumstances in previous years in Canada;
And also, the status of clerks, officers, messengers or other persons attendant on the House of Commons, distinguishing between such persons as are permanent officers and suoh as are temporary and those whose duties are of a sessional character;
And the right and proper procedure to be adopted with respect to the retention or dismissal of any such employees;
And that the committee have power to print such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the committee for the use of the committee and members of the house.
Soldier Settlement Act
Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: I suppose this had better stand until Monday.
Motion stands.



CANADIAN WHEAT BOARD

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the payment of certain sums of money to the Canadian Wheat Board for distribution to primary producers of wheat in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta who delivered wheat grown in 1930 to Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers, Limited, through their respective pool organizations, for the payment by the Canadian Wheat Board to Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers, Limited, of the net credit balance resulting from transactions by Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers, Limited, in respect of coarse grains grown in the year 1930, and for the payment of the reasonable expenses incurred in carrying out the provisions of the act.
He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the house.
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Minister of Immigration and Colonization) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to amend the Soldier Settlement Act to provide that the period during which payments of arrears or instalments subject to bonus privileges may be made be extended' to the thirty-first day of March, 1938.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Sir Eugene Fiset in the chair.
Mr. CRERAR:: The amendment to this legislation is very slight. In 1933 legislation was put through the house giving power to apply what was known as the dollar for dollar bonus privilege to soldier settlers in making their payments on lands which they had held from the director of soldier settlement administration. This legislation simply extends the period over which they may take advantage of that privilege from March 31, 1936, to March 31, 1938.


Mr. NEILL:: I have been asked by a body of soldier settlers in the district I represent

to ask if this legislation could not be extended five years. They claim that owing to the depression, which cannot be denied, they have been able to take but comparatively little advantage of the existing act, and that if the extension is for only two years they will find themselves in the same condition two years hence, as there is no possibility of things improving so rapidly as to enable them to get ahead to meet these payments. They ask if it could not be arranged now to extend the period for five years, so that they would have something definite towards which they could work, and make their arrangements accordingly.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think there is something to be said for that request, but after giving consideration to the question of extension for a longer period we decided that perhaps on the whole it would be best to ask for only two years' extension. If the conditions that exist two years from now make it advisable to extend the period for another year, or two or three years, it can always be done by a very simple amendment to the act. On the other hand I think it is desirable that those who are in a position to make payments should make them, and I do not think any very serious injury will be done to those for whom the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) speaks by enacting into law the measure as it now stands. It can always be further extended should that be considered desirable.


Mr. STEWART:: As I understand it, the soldier settler who pays one dollar gets credit for an additional dollar on his indebtedness; that is the effect of the existing legislation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Mr. STEW  ART@: Has the minister available the number who have taken advantage of the legislation, and the amounts paid in, by provinces?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid I have not
before me a note of the number who have taken, advantage of it. It has been operative from 1933, when the legislation was passed, until March 31 of the present year, 1936. During that time payments received subject to bonus from the soldier settlers were 82,430,660.22. The bonus credited to date on those payments amounts to SI,648,485.14. There was a provison in the legislation passed in 1933 that before a soldier could avail himself of the bonus privilege he had to have his taxes and his insurance paid; consequently there' is a further amount of $782,175.80 to be credited when taxes and insurance are paid. The experience in the administration, I am told by the officials, is that where the soldiers

Soldier Settlement Act
could take advantage of it, that is where they had some crops, where they had some income which provided them with cash in hand to take advantage of it, they did so. Cases where this could not be done were those where crops suffered severely from drought or rust or other adverse conditions, and their income was insufficient to enable them to take advantage of the legislation. We hope by extending it for two years to enable them to take advantage of the provision that was embodied in the legislation of 1933.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What is the total amount of soldier indebtedness outstanding in respect of these obligations?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret that I cannot give my hon. friend that information. That will be considered, of course, when the estimates are before the house. If my memory serves me rightly, the total that is now considered possible of collection is around 850,000,000. I mention that figure, however, subject to correction.


Mr. McINTOSH:: May I say, there is
an organization of soldier settlers throughout western Canada known as the soldier settlers' union. The members of that union appreciate very much the legislation that was passed recently and is being amended this year by the government, but tiheir opinion, as I understand it, is that the legislation, though very needful, does not go far enough. I should like to put before the minister that point of view, and the request of the members of that organization that they be given an opportunity to confer with the minister some time during the present year to discuss further aspects of the soldier settlement question in western Canada. In other words, they would like to bring before the minister, the total debt of the soldier settlers, the interest on that debt, the annual amount of that interest and how they might be enabled to meet it in the years to come. They feel that the time has come when perhaps the interest payments should be given up entirely and the principal so arranged that they may be able to meet their obligations year by year over a stated period. May I ask, then, if the minister would be favourable to having a conference with the representatives of this union and of the veterans who are also interested in this vital matter?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I would not object to meeting with the organization to which my hon. friend refers, but I am not familiar with it and I do not know how representative it is. After all, these soldier settlers cover a very wide area, and I do not know that any particular advantage would be gained if the
organization to which my hon. friend refers is more or less local in character. Of course the legion have been interested in the welfare of the returned soldiers on the land as well as the welfare of other returned soldiers, and I think I am correct in saying that the measure I am now asking the committee to approve has been approved by the legion. As I said a moment ago, I have no objection to sitting down with any interests representing the returned soldiers, but I think it only reasonable to say that in any case these interests should be representative. If this is a representative organization embracing the whole dominion I shall be very glad to sit down and discuss the whole matter with them.


Cameron Ross McIntosh: No, it does not represent the whole dominion, although I believe there is a certain membership scattered throughout the country. It particularly represents the three western provinces, and the members of that union frel that they should be given an opportunity to cooperate with the veterans in any meeting the minister may arrange. That is the position in a nutshell.


Mr. PERLEY (Qu'Appelle):: I am very glad to endorse the suggestion just made by the hon. member for North Battleford (Mr. McIntosh). I think there are many cases in western Canada that should be reconsidered, in which there really should be revaluations. The legislation passed in 1933 was very favourably received, and at that time the soldier settlers thought it would be of great benefit to them. However, owing to the continuous crop failures in certain parts of the west many of these returned men have had nothing for five years, certainly nothing to apply on a dollar for dollar bonus scheme. The minister has mentioned the amount that has been credited under this act since 1933, something around $1,500,000, and when you compare that sum with the total yet outstanding that the minister states may be collected, amounting to some $50,000,000, it will be seen that the soldier settlers have not been able to do very much even under that legislation. I do not say there should be a general revaluation, but in many cases even after what has been done in the past the land is still valued too highly. These men want to pay for their land, I know; many of them have married since taking up this land and I know they are anxious to meet their obligations and make their permanent homes there. I am glad to see this amendment brought down, but I agree with the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) that two years is not going to be long enough.
Soldier Settlement Act

I trust that, as the minister has said, the government will grant a further extension if necessary when the time comes.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: May I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the discussion is getting perhaps a little out of order. After all we are considering the extension of this period for bonus payments. The matters that have been brought up by my hon. friends from North Battleford and Qu'Appelle could be discussed when the estimates of the soldier settlement board are before the committee, when all the information will be available on the points they have raised. If I might offer a suggestion it would be that we confine the discussion to this particular point.


Mr. COLDWELL:: While what the minister says is quite true, I am of the opinion that a two year extension will not meet the case. The fact that the extension is for only two years means that in the meantime a number of these soldier settlers will be consumed with anxiety from time to time. I should like to see the minister and the committee take a more realistic view of the situation and make this extension for a much longer period. I would suggest also that in the meantime the point raised by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle be taken into consideration and that a revaluation of much of this land be undertaken. I know from personal experience, as I am sure many other hon. members know, that the condition of many of these settlers in th'e dried out areas and the bush country of western Canada is deplorable. I know that people who have looked into their situation realize that they are in a hopeless position at the present time. I suggest to the minister, therefore, that this extension be for more than two years and that in the meantime a thorough survey be made of soldier settlements with a view to determining what lands are submarginal and upon what lands it may be possible for returned men to meet the payments that will come due in the future, because I am quite sure that in many instances the condition of such settlers is quite hopeless.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: I desire to keep myself strictly to the subject of the resolution. I think it is desirable that this legislation should be extended for some period, because many men have not been able to take advantage of the bonus, for two reasons, the failure of the crops and the exceedingly low prices that have been realized. I have the honour of representing probably the largest number of soldier settlers in any constituency in the province of Saskatchewan,

and from time to time they have made representations to me. They favour having this plan extended for another year. In the first place they asked me to have it extended until the end of this fiscal year, until the spring time. Later they asked that it be extended for another year and then from year to year, as, if and when necessary, as conditions developed. There are two views held with regard to extending it for one or for five years. The returned soldiers who spoke to me wanted it extended from year to year, * while some others would like to have it extended for five years. Many of those men who are settlers themselves do not ask that it be extended for five years at a time, because then the 'human desire to procrastinate enters into the question. If it is known that one has five years in which to make payment he will probably think he might as well do as some of us have done with our life insurance premiums and such matters, delay and delay, until the sum becomes too large; whereas if it has to be paid within a year there is more likelihood that the payment will be made promptly if means are available. For that reason I support the action of the minister in asking that the time be extended for two years, although, as I say, I have been asked to see that it be extended if possible from year to year unless conditions make any further extensions unnecessary.


Mr. LEADER:: I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Melfort (Mr. McLean). I think the government are wise in extending the period for two years only. We are only human, and that applies to returned soldiers as well as to others; some of them might be inclined to postpone their payments, even if they were in a position to meet them, if they thought they had at least five years within which to make good. It seems to me that the extension for two years only will have the effect of inducing them to make their payments more promptly. The suggestion of the minister is,
I understand, that if at the end of two years conditions are such as to require it, the term can be again extended. That seems to me the proper procedure and one which will work no hardship on the returned men. While I have not a large number of soldier settlers in my riding, I have some; I have had requests from these men that the government extend the time for taking advantage of this legislation, and I know they will be grateful to the government for doing so.
I should like at the same time to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member

Soldier Settlement Act
for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) and the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley).
I think there are many cases where the situation should be reviewed to see whether these men are placed on land on which they can make a living. I know for a fact that the best farmers in this country could not make a living on some of the land on which soldier settlers were placed. I have in mind a man who worked all summer for a neighbour of mine.
I was loading a car of wheat with him last fall and he told me this story: "I am married;
I have two children, but my wife and children are home with her parents and I am working out here." I said, "Did you never settle on the land?" He said, "Yes, but from the land I settled on no man could make a living." He said he had applied for land that was suitable but his application was refused. I am not personally acquainted with the facts, but that is what he told me. Some provision should be made for a man like that who wants to get on the land and establish a home. We talk about the unemployed drifting into our cities, and we know they should remain on the land if possible. This is one instance, which could be multiplied by thousands, and the government should undertake to review such cases, as suggested by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar. I commend the government for the action they have taken, and believe this bill is worthy of our favourable consideration.
. Mr. YOUNG: Does the dollar for dollar provision in the act apply to the soldier settler's total indebtedness, that is to both principal and interest?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No, it applies to all the payments made between the date of coming into force of the act passed in 1933, and March 31, 1936. This amendment extends that period for two years, consequently it will apply to all payments made between the date of coming into force of the act and March 31, 1938. If the soldier settler is in arrears for two or three years he can pay up the arrears and get the advantage of the dollar for dollar bonus on payments made during this period.


Cameron Ross McIntosh: Just a word in connection with the two points I tried to emphasize. The first is that the legislation before the committee is on the whole satisfactory to the soldier settlers throughout western Canada. If there is occasion to extend it in the future it can be extended when the time comes, but this extension for two years is being accepted by them in the right spirit and they feel that it is a move in the right direction.
The other point to which I referred was to a conference between the minister or the
department and representatives of soldier settlers and veterans generally. My point is that any matter pertaining to soldier settlers in western Canada with regard to interest and debt could be brought up and discussed. Then if it is thought wise to have a survey made, that can be done, but my intention in mentioning a conference was to have all questions that require consideration presented and reviewed there and not necessarily discussed in the house at the present time.


Mr. BARBER:: Could the minister give the percentage of returned soldier settlers who took advantage of this legislation? If he has the figures for each province I would appreciate it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret that I cannot give the number by provinces; the information I have here does not enable me to answer the question. But I shall make a note of it, and we shall try to have the information available when we are considering the item in the estimates that deals with soldier settlement.


Harry James Barber: It is the resolution we are discussing now; perhaps the minister could give it on the bill.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think I can get that. It is not material, but I think I can get it.


Mr. FAIR:: I commend the action of the minister in extending this period for two years, but I know that is not enough. The suggestion that a revaluation should be made should not be lost sight of. In my district I know one man who bought a half section of land and some horses and machinery. The original price was $8,000. and to-day I understand he owes $13,000 on that outfit. Those who were fortunate enough to start in far better circumstances than that man are still suffering under some handicap, and I cannot see how he will ever get out of the mire that he is pressed into to-day, not because he is not a good farmer but because of the situation he is up against. The dominion promised to take care of the men they sent overseas, and the way it is hanging a burden of debt around the necks of the men who returned is not right. They went through enough when they were overseas, and Canada should do its share and at least not place a millstone around their necks. There should be a revaluation.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The minister informed the committee that $2,430,000 odd had been paid by a certain number of soldier settlers. I assume that under this legislation if the
Indian Act-Mr. Crerar

same soldier settlers make payments during the next two years they will also get credit for the further payments they make.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is right.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Crerar thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 18, to amend the Soldier Settlement Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



INDIAN ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. T. A. CRERAR (Superintendent General of Indian Affairs) moved the second reading of Bill No. 4, to amend the Indian Act.
Alan Webster Neill: Is the minister going to
speak? If not, I should like to say a few words.


Ernest Edward Perley: The minister
ought to give an explanation indicating what the bill is to cover.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be glad to do so.
A brief explanation was given when the resolution preceding the bill came before the house.


Ernest Edward Perley: Then let us
have a fuller explanation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall endeavour to meet
the very reasonable request of the hon. member for Argenteuil (Sir George Perley).
The amendments contained in the bill cover several matters relating to Indian administration.. Section 1 of the bill deals with property left as the result of the death of an Indian on a reserve. At the present time he cannot leave such property to any person outside the reserve, and there is a provision in the Indian Act for the disposal of such property to some individual resident on the reserve. The amendment provides that the band may purchase such property out of band funds.
The next section deals with the protection of fruit trees and orchards on reserves. I believe there are a few instances in British Columbia where orchards exist on reserves adjacent to other communities in which the chief occupation is the production of fruit. At the present time there are no provisions in the Indian Act to compel the spraying of orchards on reserves, and under the amendment power is sought to have such provision. Then, certain powers are sought in connection with the control of motor vehicle traffic on the reserves.
The next section of the bill gives the band the right to purchase the property to which reference is made in the first section.

The next section deals with decisions at meetings of the council of the band. Very often the Indian agent is the presiding officer, and in the bill there is a provision under which the person presiding at such meeting may have the casting vote, if such is necessary.
The next section deals with the procedure which shall be followed at meetings of the council of the band.
In regard to the amendment in clause 6 of the bill, it may be noted that the sections in the present act relating to the subject are to the effect that if any person is found in possession of an intoxicant in the house, wigwam or place of abode of an Indian, certain penalties will follow. The relevant section of the present bill provides that if he has such intoxicant in a hotel room, being occupied by an Indian, he is subject to the same penalties that would apply if he had the intoxicant in the Indian's tent or wigwam.
There are several sections in the Indian Act under which an informer is entitled to a moiety of the fines collected. We propose to repeal that provision by striking out in each of the sections indicated in the bill the provision which gives the informer a part of the fine which may be assessed against the person infringing the act.


Ernest Edward Perley: Would the minister enlarge upon the reasons for this radical change?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The change is suggested mainly from British Columbia. I am told the attorney general of that province has expressed himself as being favourable to it. Many of our Indian agents and others who have been associated with Indian administration in the province, or matters having to do with Indians, have also suggested that this would be a desirable amendment. That is why it is included in the bill.
The next section relates to what is known as the potlatch. I regret I am unable to give the house a learned dissertation on the potlatch, but apparently it is a kind of Indian festival dating back a long time. The best information I can get about it indicates that many generations ago it was the occasion of Indians meeting to carry on a certain amount of public business. As they had no writings they desired to have as many witnesses as possible to the conclusions or decisions reached. This practice persisted down through the years, but like many similar institutions among other races of men it changed as the years passed, with the result that now, except possibly in one district of British Columbia, the potlatch has ceased to exist. The IndiaD

Indian Act-Mr. Neill
Act contains rather stringent provisions against it. The amendments provided by the bill are simply to enlarge the restrictive provisions, in the expectation that it will assist in doing away with this ceremony even in the more remote parts in which I am informed it still persists.
The next clause has to do with the residence qualifications of an Indian councillor. Formerly the councillor had to be possessed of and had to live in a house on the reserve. The proposed amendment enables the councillor to qualify on being possessed of a house on the reserve and living thereon, without having to live in that particular house.
What I have said covers briefly, and, I hope, adequately, the purposes of the bill.


Alan Webster Neill: Mr. Speaker, the provisions of this bill are all appropriate and necessary, I think, with the exception of two. Sections 7 to 12 propose to abolish giving a moiety of a fine to the informer. There may be the objection which the minister has stated or which is set out on the explanatory page of the bill, that it leads to men being too anxious to dig up an offence in order to collect half the fine. But I would hesitate to say that the giving of this moiety should be done away with. It has been in force for a great many years and I think has been very seldom abused. I have seen attempts made to abuse it. I have seen an Indian go out and pay ten dollars for a bottle of whiskey and have a drunk on it. He then laid an information against the man who sold him the whiskey; the seller would be fined fifty dollars, of which the Indian got twenty-five, and thereby was created a revolving fund with which to continue the operation. But no sensible official or magistrate would permit such a thing for a moment. I was Indian agent for ten years, and if I saw any disposition of that kind I remedied it simply by seeing that someone other than such a gentleman was the informant. A policeman could be the informant-he would not get half the fine-or anyone else. In these out of the way places the law is administered with not exactly the same severity and accuracy as to technicalities that prevails, say, in the Supreme Court of Canada, and there are occasions on which an informer does require some compensation. A rather decent Indian in a band may take it upon himself to try to suppress the liquor business, and it is only fair that he should get some compensation for the trouble he takes. Very often he may have to go a good many miles in a canoe to attend court, and so on, and it is desirable to have this money under the hand of
the magistrate by means of which he may deal out rough and ready justice. I recall a case many years ago in which a white man had seduced an Indian woman; to that end he made the husband1 drunk, and the Indian went away and fell into the water and was drowned. It was up to me to handle the situation. I could not see that sending the man to gaol was going to do any particular good-he had a wife and family and some position-nor would it have done the widow much good, so I stretched the law perhaps a little in fining him some ridiculously large sum, I think $500. I put in the widow as the informant, by which she got $250, and I kept that in hand and fed it out to her at so much a month for a couple of years, by which time she had got married again and everybody was more or less satisfied. That was rough and ready justice which would not have met with the approval perhaps of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe), but it was the sort of thing that was needed in these out of the way places.
The other provision to which I take very definite objection is the one proposing to increase the penalty in connection with potlatching. This is a practice that occurs in the district that I represent, and therefore it is up to me to give expression to the views of some of the Indians who have written to me on the subject. Unfortunately there appeared in the press at the time notice was given of the provisions of this bill, comment upon this practice of potlatching. It said that the Indians were in the habit of going to great excesses, going so far even as to give away their squaws. The minister's name unfortunately was used in the same paragraph, and it rather conveyed the suggestion that he was responsible for the statement in the press. The Indians were very much upset and four of the chiefs in the district wrote me. Commenting on this newspaper item they say:
It has never been the custom to indulge in any of -the practices mentioned, such as giving away our wives, and we whose names are subscribed have never heard of its being done, and we consider a great wrong has been done to our people in charging this against us. We still give away presents at some parties, but in no instance does the donor beggar himself or involve his family, as was formerly the custom. With our education and other benefits conferred on us by the government, these ancient customs, that is the injurious ones, are rapidly dying out naturally. As most of us have been baptized, confirmed and married in the church, we feel that a great injustice has been done in accusing us of giving away our wives at a potlatch. We also consider that someone has been violating the ninth commandment in accusing us of such a practice. We wish you would do what you can to put this matter in its true light.
12S8
Indian Act-Mr. Neill

I leave it to the minister to locate the ninth commandment, as I am not as familiar with it as I might be. I do not want to go into a dissertation on the potlatch, but putting it briefly, it has a very old origin. The Indians got together and had a potlatch for the inauguration of the young men of the band, and there was a ceremony in which a living dog was hung up and the candidate for admission to the band had to take bites out of this living animal. That is already prohibited by law. But what is now more properly called the potlatch consists in an Indian who wishes to get a high standing among his fellow men collecting a large quantity of goods-it may be flour, potatoes, anything at all-and then he calls together the band, or a whole band may give a potlatch, a communal affair, at which everything will be given away. I have seen men give away the very beds they slept on and the stoves they wanted to cook with. They did not give away their women; the trouble was, the use they would put their women to in order to get the cash to give the potlatch. But that practice gradually died away. The influence of the white man induced an individualism amongst the Indians, and I was careful to instil that point of view myself when I was Indian agent. I used to point out to them that it left them in poverty. But there was another aspect; in one sense it was a sort of old age pension insurance scheme. A hearty young man in the prime of life who gave one of these potlatches had certainly to include all the old people when giving away the gifts; therefore they got a return on the money they had invested in potlatches in the past, and it worked well in that way. Of course, nowadays with Indian agents handing out relief it is not so necessary, and the practice is dying out. The Indians are getting away from that point of view.
As the minister has said, a very stringent law was passed about the matter. I am not kicking about its stringency, but I object to its extension. The present law provides that anyone who takes part in a potlatch is liable to imprisonment for not less than two months and not exceeding six months, which is a very severe penalty to impose on a savage when you are trying to wean him away from his ancient habits and rights, from the Indian point of view. I have had Indians say to me, as a white man, "Do you not gather your friends together at Christmas and give them presents? Then why should we not do the same?" I remember on one occasion some over-zealous individual reported me to 
Ottawa for having allowed a potlatch at a certain place. I went down to see what the trouble was, and it turned out that the Indians had had some kind of pageant, got up by some of the children attending school. In the pageant a whale appeared and all of a sudden burst asunder and a lot of young fellows dressed in white stepped out, and there were other appropriate scenes. Fortunately someone had taken a picture of it, which I sent to Ottawa. I said in making my report to Ottawa that the night before the potlatch I had attended a fancy dress ball in the place in which I live; that the first prize had gone to a man who represented a monkey, and that I could not see much difference between representing a monkey and representing a whale, the preference being rather in favour of the whale as there had been more ingenuity and more painstaking preparations for its appearance. In that way, by not putting my foot down and sending these Indians to gaol, but rather looking at it sympathetically, no harm was done. I did not prosecute any of the Indians.
The potlatch still exists in the district referred to in this bill. I think that given a little time, and dealing with the Indians reasonably instead of going at them in such an unfair way as indicated here, any evil that may exist will die out. I am not thoroughly familiar with the situation but I suggest that a little more care might be taken by the officials in enforcing the present law, instead of making it more drastic. We do not want to be put in the position of that sultan who, when a baker was brought before him for having given false weight in his bread, put the baker himself in the oven and baked him and boasted that he had put an end to the matter. That is not the method we want to pursue here.
It is provided here, in addition to the already stringent features, that any man who takes part in a festival any part of w'hich consists in the giving away of articles shall go to gaol for six months, and now he is to go to gaol if he has been saving, storing or accumulating any goods or articles for the purpose of giving them away. Who shall read into a man's mind to decide what his purpose is when he accumulates earthly goods? He may be accumulating them to leave them to his grandchildren; or as Joseph and the Israelites of old, who in the good years stored up provisions against the depression, this Indian may foresee a depression and decide to store up certain things against a rainy day. But somebody or other not defined, the informer maybe or the magistrate, may think that the Indian intends to give away the things he is storing

Indian Act-Mr. Woodsworth
up; somebody may be of the opinion that he is going to give them away before, after or at such celebration, mark you. Well, when can he store them up? Never at all; because there is no period in human life which is not before, at the time of or after a particular deed or event. I think that is going beyond reason. Would the department care to apply such provisions to white people? That is the test. I note further a trifling detail that indicates sloppy legislation; it speaks of any goods or articles of any sort suspected of being about to he given. How can you suspect an inanimate object? Here is a desk; I may suspect the owner of the desk of having done something with it, but it is not open for me in law to suspect the desk of being about to be done something to. This language ought to read, "the owner of which is suspected."
This legislation is uncalled for. The act is stringent enough and it has been effective, and the necessity for its enforcement is becoming less and less. Will the minister's officials say that the evil is increasing? I venture to say it is not. I rather think that they desire to avoid a little trouble in enforcing the law as it stands, by having a law which will be automatic, so that they may come along at any time and say that it is in this or that man's mind to do so and so. The minister might well consider the advisability of leaving that part of the act as it is for a few years longer. Has he any evidence from his officials to the effect that this evil is getting substantially worse than it has been in years gone by?


Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):: I wish to express my sympathy with the point of view put forward by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill). In the course of my life, most of which has been spent in the west, I have had the opportunity on a number of occasions of coming more or less in contact with the Indians, and I do believe we ought not to be too stringent in these regulations that are laid down or in these acts that are from time to time brought before the house. I suggest, though not with respect to these particular clauses of the bill, that we should have a larger measure of consultation between the department and the Indians themselves. I know tihat the Indians are wards of the government; but they are also recognized as having a government of their own: they are at one and the same time within Canada and yet a sort of imperium in imperio. They have certain rights of their own, certain forms of organization, and these are recognized. I have come across a number of instances where the department is too far removed from the
Indians, and the local agent is a little too arrogant, with the result that there are a great many misunderstandings between the white people and the Indians. I do not know the Indians of eastern Canada but I can imagine that if there were new regulations that insisted that the Indians should spray their orchards or should conform to provincial regulations in force among the white people, there would be a great deal of difficulty. I am not blaming the white people for wanting to prevent the spread of disease into their orchards; but I do say that there ought to be some recognized method of consultation with the Indians when new regulations of this kind are being introduced. Before an act of this kind is passed there ought to be a conference between the Indians and the department. The whole matter ought to be very clearly set forth so that when the act actually comes into force the Indians will know what it is all about.
We take it for granted that ignorance of an act is no excuse, but in the case of Indians it may be a very real excuse. They ought to know all that is involved in these acts and ought to be helped to reconcile the difference that exists between their mode of life and that of the whites. It is only within the last few days that I have been consulted with regard to certain rights of Indians on lands on which prospecting is now done for minerals and gas. I think a great many of the Indians hardly know what their rights are. It is not very easy for them to consult lawyers as to those rights, and I venture to say that a good many of the lawyers would have to spend a considerable time before they understood exactly what the rights of the Indians were both as bands and as individual Indians within those bands. I venture to bring this matter to the attention of the minister, who I am sure is sympathetic to the Indians. As the Indians are more and more encompassed with white civilization, we might work out something of a new technique of consultation between Indian bands and the department before such regulations are definitely brought into force.


Mr. H. E. WILTON (Hamilton West):: I am not directly or personally interested in the affairs of the Indians, but I am always interested in the affairs of any people who in my opinion are not getting a square deal. My hon. friend has said that the Indians of Canada are the wards of the government. It is natural then to assume that the government should take care of them. I am personally affected in that respect to this extent. The city I represent is just now and has been for the last four years supplementing the
Indian Act-Mr. Pelletier

government's grant to the Indians by taking care of a considerable number of Indian families in Hamilton-families who leave their reservations not far from the city and move in and become a charge on the city. If the government is responsible for the maintenance of the Indians, I suggest that it give them adequate sustenance so that this extra burden will not be placed on the cities. As I say, the city of Hamilton for the past four years has been supplementing the government's grants by taking care of Indian families. Why they are not forced to remain on their lands, the government taking care of them in the proper way, I am not able to understand. It would seem to me that the department could well investigate this particular situation through their government inspectors or Indian agents and bring the Indians who have gone into the cities back to the reserves where they belong, where they can be kept, and properly kept. After all they are the only real Canadians we have, and it is the duty of this government to see that they are taken care of under government supervision and do not become part of the obligation placed on urban centres throughout Ontario and throughout Canada.


Mr. R. A. PELLETIER (Peace River):: There is an Indian reserve within my constituency, and because of that fact I have had occasion to come in contact with Indians from time to time. I am very much pleased to see that the duties of the agents in so far as the election of chiefs is concerned have been thoroughly defined. I suggest that we could possibly go a bit further than that. I gather from the remarks of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) that some of the Indians are not always cognizant of the law, and that perhaps, since they do not know the law, they are not responsible for breaking it. The explanatory note to section 13 of the bill states that section 140, subsection 1, prohibits what is known as the potlatch, a ceremony peculiar to the Indians of the west coast of British Columbia; that this subsection in one form or another has been in the Indian Act for over fifty years, and was introduced at the request of the Indians themselves, "particularly the more progressive elements." I should like to make special reference to that last sentence. It seems to me that immediately a chief is elected he should become the subject of special attention by the Indian agent or the Indian department. We know that the more progressive elements are pressing for progressive legislation. I do not know, of course, whether this condition exists all over Canada, but I do know that in certain tribes the chief

is not really qualified to act as such. I believe he should receive the special consideration of the department and should be given a certain amount of education which would fit him to administer the affairs of his tribe in a satisfactory manner.
I should also like to suggest that influence be brought to bear to promote the election of younger men as chiefs of tribes. I received not long ago a letter from one of the Indians living on a reservation in my constituency in which he related to me a visit he had just paid to the chief of his tribe. He told me that the chief was quite an old man, that apparently he could not get about very much and could not very well take care of himself, and that it did not have a very good effect on the other Indians when they found out that he had practically nothing to eat in the place he lived in; it seemed to carry the impression that these people are not looked after.


An hon. MEMBER:: His wigwam.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Possibly, his wigwam. Of course I have never lived there and I do not know what it would be like. The impression was that the chief was not very well looked after. I believe that a person in his position should be enabled to act as a real connecting link between the Indians themselves and the Indian agent. If he were capable of administering the affairs of the tribe in a more efficient manner the results to the Indians themselves would be very beneficial, and possibly by his good business management the necessity would be avoided of laws going so far as even to suppose what is in the minds of certain people.
I think that the chief should be the subject of special consideration. So far as possible he should be young, and once he is elected he should be given a certain amount of education in the matter of administering the affairs of his tribe, so that he may be able properly to represent to the agent the demands of the Indians, to settle troubles from time to time, and to give a good example to his tribe.


Mr. G. E. WOOD (Brant):: I am interested in any questions affecting the Indians, because there is a reserve in my constituency. In the first place I should like to reply to the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mr. Wilton) with regard to a situation that has developed in some of our cities adjacent to the reserve which I happen to represent; there have been complaints because some of our Indians have gone to live in the city. The late government introduced a compulsory enfranchisement act which I am inclined to think was a mistake

Indian Act-Mr. Wood
I may enlarge on that later. Indians had been enabled to collect from their capital funds, the band funds, that portion which belonged to themselves and their families. They would get it in cash, having become to all intents and purposes Canadian citizens and assumed the rights and obligations of citizenship. In prosperous times advantage was taken of that provision by some families, members of the band. In one particular case to which my attention has been drawn, the Indian with his wife and family collected considerably over
SI,000	in the way of a capital fund. It happened that the family consisted largely of daughters, and it was less than five years before five of these daughters married Indians, and were back in the Indian reserve, residing there by virtue of the fact that they married men of their own race. They had the advantage of spending these band funds; now they are back upon the Indian reserve, and the result is that the band funds are depleted by just that amount. The hon. member for Hamilton West must remember that to all intents and purposes they are Canadian citizens, and, while they are enfranchised, are just as much entitled to relief in the cities as any other Canadian citizen or any person of foreign birth who has Canadian citizenship rights. I rather think that compulsory enfranchisement is wrong, and I would make a protest against the further enforcement of that act.
I was interested in the remarks of the hon. member for (Comox-Alberni) Mr. Neill, and particularly his comments on the festivities. I do not think the government need have any undue concern with regard to those festivities, because they are gradually dying out. Of course the Indians guard very jealously some of their traditions. On our Indian reserve a feast takes place every year which is called the burning of the white dog. It sounds very vicious, but the fact of the matter is that they do not burn a white dog. It has developed into more or less of a social affair, they have a program arranged; they are very glad to have visitors from any section, and on a particular evening when they are having their war dances if you happen to go there you will have to dance whether you know how to do it or not. The point is that they enjoy these things, and I think they are beginning to get on a higher plane; their old traditions are being woven into our civilization. I am not so sure that we need be much concerned about placing restrictions on them, though we may correct such errors as happen to exist among them.
I quite understand that the minister has had a great deal of difficulty in trying to draft a 12739-83
law that will take into consideration all the irregularities that exist in Indian reserves, because there are very great differences in the types of these Indians and in regard to the band funds. I would recommend to the department that, wherever possible, they extend the autonomy of the Indians and give them more right to discharge their own affairs. I take the same view in connection with Indians that I take in connection with ourselves; the less government interference we have in many things the more chance there is to create individual initiative, and I think that is one of the fundamentals we must observe on the road to recovery. We can do a great deal to encourage our Indians to develop their own initiative, and I believe that will help them out of many of their difficulties.
With regard to the education of their chiefs or rulers, I think that must be left to each individual reserve. The group I have the honour to represent are perhaps among the most advanced in the country, and I wish to place myself on record as believing that they could be given almost complete autonomy. I believe they are quite capabie of discharging their own business. I think the township of Tuscarora, which is inhabited completely by the Six Nations Indians, should be incorporated in the county of Brant. Let them administer their own affairs, elect their own council and pay their share of the cost of the administration of justice in the county, as other townships do. I have no qualms of conscience in making that suggestion, and I hope and trust the Indian department may see its way clear to take some such action in order to encourage the Indians to assume full responsibility just as quickly as their advance in civilization will permit. We have an Indian superintendent in Brantford to administer the affairs of the Indians, but I believe the people on this reserve have enough ability to administer their own affairs, and in that way perhaps the government could save some money. I am quite conscious of the importance of the statement I am making, but I make it in all sincerity because I believe these Indians have the ability to do as I have suggested. I would ask the department, instead of retarding their progress by taking away their responsibilities, as we have done in connection with their education, to endeavour to have them undertake greater responsibility as I have suggested. Only eleven years ago they instituted an elective system for the selection of their council, the same system that is followed in every other municipality; in fact they do some things that I think might well be done in some of

Indian Act

the other municipalities. I would ask the department to give serious consideration to the suggestions I have advanced.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Sir Eugene Fiset in the chair.
On section 1-Land devised or bequeathed to non-resident, to be sold.
George Ernest Wood: How does the department arrive at the price the band should pay for that property? Is it to be sold at auction or is there any method of appraising the value of the property?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is covered in section
3.	If the	hon.	member	will	look at thatsection he	will	observe	that	the governorin council is authorized, with the consent of the band, to use band funds for the purchase of the land in question. The only amendment to this section is the addition of the words underlined. If an Indian on a reserve dies and bequeaths property to someone who is not a resident of the reserve, that property must be sold. Let us suppose the land is bequeathed to a white man, urho would not be eligible	to reside on	the	reserve. Theproperty would	have to	be	sold to some
Indian on the reserve; already we have a provision in the law in that regard. This amendment simply extends it so that the band as a whole may buy the property. That is done by the governor in council, but the consent of the band must be secured.


George Ernest Wood: I know of one Indian who had a family of girls, all of whom married white men. In the ordinary course of events this Indian undoubtedly will bequeath his property to his children. What will be the disposition of that property, after the Indian and his wife die, with the property bequeathed to their daughters who have married white men?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know just how the law would apply in the rather unusual case my hon. friend cites.


George Ernest Wood: It is not a particularly unusual case on our reserve.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Not being a lawyer I do not think I can definitely answer the question, but I do not see that it is involved in the amendment proposed to this section.


Mr. HOWDEN:: I should like to ask the minister if in the past it has been possible for a white man to own property on a reserve. I did not think that could be done. What is the purpose of this section of the bill?
[Mr. Wood.)


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I understand the matter it is not competent for a white man to own property on a reserve. If an Indian living on a reserve dies and leaves his property to, I will say, my hon. friend from St. Boniface, my hon. friend would not be competent to hold that property.


John Power Howden: He could not do that under the law.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes, he could, but my hon. friend could not avail himself of the property. It would be sold back to some Indian on the reserve, and the proceeds would go to my hon. friend. This amendment simply provides in addition that the land may be sold to the band as a whole, and the proceeds of the sale would go to the person to whom the land had been bequeathed.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 2-Laws for preventing disease.
Mr. REID:: I should like to ask the minister what representations he has had, and from what provinces, in regard to paragraph (2). There are Indian reservations in my own constituency in which there are orchards that have never been attended to, but as power is now being given to Indian agents to implement the provisions of the provincial act I would view with alarm that power being handed over to Indian agents, because the provincial government have power to order the trees cut down if they are not attended to. The provincial government have never attempted to do it; they have been rather afraid-the political aspect has prevented them from cutting down any trees. But here we are handing that power over to the Indian agents, which seems to me rather dangerous.


Mr. STIRLING:: Surely the hon. member
for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) is going rather far when he says this power will be handed over to Indian agents. As I read it, the superintendent general may take suoh action if he sees fit. Surely he will look into the circumstances before he gives power to his agent to take any such drastic action as the hon. member suggests. Representations have been made, for instance, by those who own orchard lands in the southern part of British Columbia. In many cases to my knowledge orchards on Indian lands stand as a definite menace to large commercial acreages of orchards. Again and again I myself have attempted to get action with regard to the spraying of trees on Indian reserves that have become infested with disease and are a definite threat to the commercial

Indian Act
orchards surrounding them, perhaps a hundred times larger in area than the orchards on the reservations. I am glad that the government is taking action of this sort, and I hope it will be successful. I am satisfied that the superintendent general will make himself aware of all the facts before he gives power to an Indian agent to take extreme measures to see that compulsory spraying takes place.


Thomas Reid: But the hon. member does
not deny that there is power under the provincial act by virtue of which an inspector may go in and cut down a man's trees. He will remember a case in which an inspector threatened to cut down a man's orchard but on investigation it was found that the inspector's orchard was in a worse state of infection than that of the man he complained about.


Grote Stirling: I take it the superintendent general will not agree to the cutting down of the trees unless he is satisfied they should be cut down.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 3-Power of governor in council over expenditure of capital.
James Shaver Woodsworth: May I ask the way in which capital may be expended? In the instance I mentioned a little while ago, if minerals were discovered on Indian territory, what control has the Indian band over those minerals?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No disposition of the
minerals could be made without consent of the band.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is it considered
that the Indians own not merely the surface rights but the minerals as well?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is what I have been informed. I must say I have not had opportunity yet to familiarize myself with all the provisions of the rather lengthy Indian Act, but my advice is that the Indians are the sole owners of the reservation and including what is on or under the soil, and that before any disposition of even a foot of land on the reserve can be made the Indians of the band must give their approval.


Mr. IIARTIGAN:: The only exception
would be where the province has reserved the right to minerals, for instance coal.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I know that is
rather a moot question, because there are certain Indians who claim their rights are coextensive with those of the crown. Then suppose under the act a band is called together, is it necessary that if they give up 12739-831
any it must be all the mineral rights under the whole of the land, or could they reserve certain sections for themselves?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The Indian band would
have complete control. My information is that if they want to keep a part they can do so.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Under this section
could the Indian band invest part of their capital in the development of minerals or gas?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: On their own reserve?


James Shaver Woodsworth: On their own reserve.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: They could do that only
with the consent of the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs, I take it.


James Shaver Woodsworth: In the past our
difficulties and misunderstandings with Indian bands have been largely over the cutting of wood and fishing rights. Now that minerals are being discovered and prospecting is going on actively, it might be well to conserve the rights of the band, and if anyone is to get the chance to develop these mineral resources the Indians ought to be given an equal opportunity.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: My hon. friend raises a
very interesting point, but it does not relate to this particular section.


James Shaver Woodsworth: It was really in
connection with this section that I asked the question, because the act states that capital may be used-
-in the purchase of cattle, implements or machinery for the hand, or in the construction of permanent improvements upon the reserve of the band, or such works thereon or in connection therewith ... or in the making of loans-


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is already the law.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Would it be competent under the present law for the band to use this capital in the development of their mineral resources?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The point my hon. friend
is raising has nothing to do with this particular amendment-


Ernest Edward Perley: Certainly it
has. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) is asking for an interpretation of this clause in the act in connection with the matter of mining rights. Does this clause cover the case about which the hon. member asks?
Indian Act


Ernest Lapointe: This is already the law. The change asked for would have the effect of enlarging the powers of the Indian band.


Ernest Edward Perley: The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre is asking whether this law is sufficient to authorize the band to develop minerals on their land. I take it that if the minister thinks the law is not sufficient it would be quite within the right of my hon. friend to move that it be altered now.


Ernest Lapointe: The
hon. member is perfectly in order, there is no doubt about it.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 4 and 5 agreed to.
On section 6-Having intoxicants in his jy/jssession.
James Shaver Woodsworth: I should like to
know how far this goes. Take the case of a non-treaty Indian, whether on or off the reservation; does this mean that an Indian [* ho has become naturalized is still placed in an inferior position, and still remains to (hat extent a ward of the government?
(Mr. CRERAR: It does not mean that. /Paragraph (c) of section 126 states:
126. Every one who by himself, his clerk, servant or agent, and every one who in the *employment or on the premises of another directly or indirectly on any pretence or by any device;
(c) is found in possession of any intoxicant in the house, tent, wigwam, or place of abode of any Indian or non-treaty Indian or of any person on any reserve or special reserve, or on any other part of any reserve or special reserve ...
And so on. The amendment seeks to enlarge that paragraph so as to cover cases off the reserve. For instance, the Indian may have a room in a hotel.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That is the point I make. It seems to me that if an Indian is naturalized and leaves the reserve he is in the same position as any other citizen. I can understand that while on the reserve he has to be specially protected, and that the government has certain special obligations toward him, but if in the course of his ordinary work he goes into the outside world I cannot see why the government should follow him, even though it is to protect him.


Ernest Lapointe: If an Indian is enfranchised he ceases to be subject to this clause. He is no longer an Indian.
fSir George Perley.]


James Shaver Woodsworth: What is meant in the act, as it now stands, when it speaks of "any Indian or non-treaty Indian"?


Mr. DUPUIS:: That is a wild Indian.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I know a lot of non-treaty Indians who are anything but wild.


Vincent Dupuis: They are not all wild. Some are more civilized than so-called civilized white people.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I want to know how far this is going. If the act as it now stands means what it seems to state, that is if it refers to any Indian, then I am opposed to enlarging its scope. If it were enlarged it would mean that an Indian who has left his reserve and who may be naturalized and going about his ordinary business is still to be placed in a position inferior to that of the ordinary citizen.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I think the hon. member might have a more exact understanding if we had the whole section before us. The bill contemplates an amendment to paragraph (c) of section 126 of the Indian Act. Section 126 is as follows:
Every one who by himself, his clerk, servant or agent, and every one who in the employment or on the premises of another directly or indirectly on any pretence or by any device;
(a)	sells, barters, supplies or gives to any Indian or non-treaty Indian, or to any person, male or female, who is reputed to belong to a particular band', or who follows the Indian mode of life, or any child of such person any intoxicant, or causes or procures the same to be done or attempts the same or connives thereat;
(b)	opens or keeps or causes to be opened or kept on any reserve or special reserve a tavern, house or building in which any intoxicant is sold, supplied or given;
(c)	is found in possession of any intoxicant in the house, tent, wigwam, or place of abode of any Indian or non-treaty Indian or of any person on any reserve or special reserve, or on any other part of any reserve or special reserve;
And then follows paragraph (d). The amendment is to enlarge paragraph (c) so as to include the word " room," so that the section would read:
Every one who by himself, his clerk, servant or agent, and every one who in the employment or on the premises of another directly or indirectly on any pretence or by any device;
(c) is found in possession of any intoxicant in the house, room-
And it may be in the room of a hotel near the reserve-

tent, wigwam, or place of abode of any Indian or non-treaty Indian, whether on or off a reserve, or of any person on any reserve or special reserve, or on any other part of any reserve or special reserve.

Indim Act
And so on. It does not change the law, but simply extends the principle to cover the condition I have indicated.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister's explanation, if I understand it correctly, lends point to what I was trying to say. I appreciate the desire of the minister to protect the morals of the Indians, but if an Indian leaves his reserve and goes into the outside world to do work for himself, rents a room in a hotel, and a clerk, agent or bellboy in that hotel takes intoxicants into such Indian's room, I do not see what business it is of the department, any more than if the occurrence took place in the room of a white man. It seems to me that under the circumstances the Indian should come under the ordinary regulations which prevail in connection with all persons. I think we are going too far if we continue to adopt a paternal attitude when the Indian goes outside his reserve.


Ernest Lapointe: May I point out to the hon. member that the expression "non-treaty Indian" is interpreted to mean:
Any person of Indian blood who is reputed to belong to an irregular band, or who follows the Indian mode of life, even if such person is only a temporary resident in Canada.
That does not apply to an enfranchised Indian.


James Shaver Woodsworth: May I call the minister's attention to the words "place or abode of any Indian"-any Indian.


Ernest Lapointe: Yes.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Isn't an enfranchised Indian an Indian?


Ernest Lapointe: No, they are naturalized. They are enfranchised and have all the rights of ordinary citizens.


Vincent Dupuis: They are no longer called Indians.


Ernest Lapointe: They are no longer wards of the nation.


Mr. YY OODSYY ORTH:: Do I understand the Minister of Justice to say that when an Indian becomes enfranchised he has ceased to be an Indian?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, I think so.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Well, that is news to me.


Mr. McCANN:: I think the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. YVoodsworth) has not considered the point that probably the reason for the provision was the special
temperament and special characteristics pertaining only to Indians. The Indian is of such a temperament that he may be more easily influenced or stimulated by intoxicants than other inhabitants of the country, generally speaking, and these provisions are put in the act for his protection. Whether hebe on his own reservation or in a private room at a hotel his makeup or temperament would still be Indian, and, as the government has^ attempted to do, he must be protected against himself irrespective of his location at the time he becomes intoxicated.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Does he lose that temperatment when he takes Canadian citizenship?


James Joseph McCann: Certainly not; nobody contends that. The hon. gentleman should not interpret my remarks in that way. I say that he is still an Indian, and retains the temperament and makeup of the Indian. Under those circumstances he is entitled to and must have the protection of those of whom he is a ward.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The argument supports my contention. He would not get the protection, under the interpretation given by the Minister of Justice, because according to the minister he ceases to be an Indian.


David James Hartigan: He comes under ordinary laws.


Mr. SENN:: I have no particular fault to find with the object behind the proposed change. I believe it is a good thing for those Indians who are wards of the government. We must remember however that as soon as an Indian becomes naturalized he does not come under the provisions of this section.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: He does not come under the provisions of the act.


Mark Cecil Senn: There is another class of Indians which I believe should be considered. Although they are not very great in number, they have rights and privileges which they have won; I refer to the Indians who fought overseas in the great war. They have been given rights of citizenship so far as the vote is concerned. They say they were good enough to fight for their country and that to all intents and purposes they are citizens of Canada, and even though they may still be wards of the government they feel that they should be exempted from this clause. I point that out to the minister and ask him to give it his consideration.


Ernest Lapointe: May I call attention of the hon. member for Winni-
*1296

Indian Act
-peg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) to section 110 of the Indian Act, paragraph 5, which says:
On the report of the Superintendent General that any Indian, male or female, over the age of twenty-one years is fit for enfranchisement, the governor in council may by order direct that such Indian shall be and become enfranchised at the expiration of two years from the date of such order or earlier if requested by such Indian, and from the date of such enfranchisement the provisions of this and ot any other act or law making any distinction between the legal rights, privileges, disabilities and liabilities of Indians and those of His Majesty's other subjects, shall cease to apply to such Indian or to his or her minor unmarried children, or, in the case of a married male Indian, to the wife of such Indian, and every such Indian and child and wife shall thereafter have, possess and enjoy all the legal powers, rights and privileges of His Majesty s other subjects, and shall no longer be deemed to be Indians within the meaning of any laws relating to Indians.
So that I was right, and these men have the same rights as my hon. friend and myself.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am quite willing to admit that the law is beyond the comprehension of ordinary mortals.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 to 11 inclusive agreed to.
On section 12-Intoxicants at council or meeting.
Ernest Edward Perley: Before all these clauses are carried, I would ask the minister if his officials and those in the department who have been at this work for years and understand the Indians better than most ^ of us do, are definitely in favour of this being done? Is it being done on their recommendation, or at whose request?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I can say definitely that it is being done on their recommendation made to me. As I have already confessed, I have not been very long in charge of the department, but with the supporting evidence that was presented to me I approve of the general principle of these amendments.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section	13-Celebrating	festivities,
dances or ceremonies at which presents are made, or bodies mutilated.
Alan Webster Neill: Will the minister give us some information on this section?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I listened with a great deal of interest to the observations made by the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill) when he was discussing this section earlier in the afternoon. The section comes
IMr. E. Lapointe.]
to me recommended by the officers of the department. The committee will observe, and I think my hon. friend from Comox-Albemi will agree, that the amendment simply extends a principle that is already in the section. The potlatch I think practically has ceased to be carried on in its original form in all but one or two agencies in British Columbia. My hon. friend is quite right in the statement he made in the discussion on the second reading of the bill this afternoon, that the potlatch custom is dying out among the Indians. But it does persist, I am informed, in one particular agency, and this amendment seeks to draw a little tighter the provision that has been in the law for the last fifty years, and which was put in the law, I am informed, originally at the request of the Indians themselves, in order if possible to put a stop to this practice. I think this amendment might be given a chance to operate. It will be enforced as reasonably as possible, and it may be that its very presence in the law will be a sufficient deterrent to the Indians who still desire to carry on this practice.


Alan Webster Neill: Mr. Chairman, I would rather have expected to hear some evidence in the direction that the practice was increasing and doing more harm and taking place oftener than before, but evidently that is not the fact. The minister agrees that the custom is dying out, that the law as it at present exists has worked successfully. Then why alter it? The practice is dying out; there is no increase of it. Why seek to speed the process up by the insertion of a provision in the law which is unjust? If this provision were applied to me I would be inspired with a desire to go out and do this very thing, just to show that I had the right to do it. You say here that a man shall be put in peril of his liberty for six months because someone in office thinks the Indian has it in his mind to do something. Who can tell what is in any man's mind? The clause cannot be invoked except on the presumption that the man is storing up goods for the purpose of giving them away in an illegitimate way. Now, how can you tell that? It is an unjust provision. The minister suggests that it will be used with discretion. I would say the only discretion you can use about it would be to ignore it altogether. The fact of the matter is, and I am driven more and more to this conclusion because we have no evidence presented to show that the practice is increasing, I believe this provision is being put in the law because someone wants us to do his work for him. He won't go out and hunt

Indian Act
up the evidence. He would have it made a criminal offence if a man had it in his mind to do these things, he being the judge as to whether he had it in his mind or not to do something at a future time. I remember once when I was a magistrate a man was to be brought	before	me, and	the	policemansaid,	"He is	a bad	man and	I want you tosoak	it to	him."	I asked	the	policeman,"How many times has he been convicted of this offence?" "None at all," was the reply, "but	he has been	doing it	for	years." I
said, "So far as I am concerned, in this trial the man comes before me for the first time as an innocent man, and if you have neglected your duty and have not taken the trouble to watch him and get evidence against him before, I am not going to make an example of him just because you think he is a bad man." If the minister had produced evidence that the practice was increasing, the situation wmuld have been different, but he has not done so, and the practice is not increasing.
I know the place the minister has in mind, a place called Alert Bay. There are policemen stationed there; an Indian agent lives there; there are uniformed provincial police there, well qualified to take care of any infraction of the law in this direction. I am not arguing that we should do away with the present law, stringent as it is, and enforced for many years, and according to the minister himself enforced successfully. What I am objecting to is increasing the penalty and putting in a provision which I say is unreasonable, unjust and un-British. You might as well pull a man up, declare him to be, guilty, and allow him to prove his innocence. That is always the device of people who do not want to take the trouble of following the ordinaiy procedure of law enforcement; they want to put a man in the box and let him prove his innocence. The Indian is going to be penalized because he is supposed to have in mind the doing of something. He is accumulating goods before, after or at the potlatch, accumulating them for the purpose of giving them away. Why, with such a provision a vindictive man might send any Indian to gaol; for there is no alternative; he cannot get off with a fine, because he is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months and not less than two months. And he is liable to this penalty for merely saving, storing up or accumulating goods or articles for the purpose of giving them away. That is not a criminal offence, but it is the offence which is here stated. I suppose the minister has introduced this bill on the
advice of his officials. I say to him that the day will come when he will admit that he has been ill advised.


Grote Stirling: The law as it stands enacts that every Indian who engages in a ceremony of which the giving away of money, goods or articles of any sort, before, at or after any celebration forms a part, is liable, on summary conviction, and so on. Can the minister inform the committee what has happened to make it necessary to make even that drastic wording more drastic still by the inclusion of these rather curiously worded phrases?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The difficulty, I am informed, exists among one particular tribe of Indians in British Columbia. The practice there has persisted and in many instances, according to the information I have, the Indians themselves get into very serious difficulties. The Indian has an idea of having a potlatch, and he begins to prepare for it. He may put hardship upon his family in order to accumulate the goods that he will give away when this ceremony takes place. I think it is only fair to say-and I believe that those in the house who are informed on the matter will agree with me-that the general doing away with the potlatch idea has been beneficial to the Indians as a whole. All evidence that I have been able to get confirms me in that view. In this particular amendment we are trying to strengthen the law. I have considerable respect for my hon. friend from Comox-Albemi, who was in the house many years ago while I was a member. The hon. gentleman thinks we have gone too far; but as I read this amendment it would have to be made very clear what the purpose was for which flour or sugar or something else was being accumulated, before conviction could be secured.


Alan Webster Neill: How can it be proved?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If it is not proved the Indian is not guilty.


Grote Stirling: Surely the act as it now stands sufficiently empowers the superintendent general. What the committee wants to know is what has happened recently to make it necessary for the superintendent general to strengthen his hand.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Representations have been made that this practice persists in one community in British Columbia, and the recommendation has come from the officers of the department that the law be strengthened in the manner proposed. I must frankly admit that I have no personal knowledge of the
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matter, but on the representations made to me by the officials of the department and on evidence that has been submitted to me more in the form of letters from other interests who are sympathetic to the welfare of the Indians, I considered that the amendment was a proper one. I suggest that the committee accept it. I do not think that injustice to any Indian will result.


Alan Webster Neill: If injustice does not result it will be because the act is not enforced. Then what is the use of it? I agree with the remarks of the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling), and I too would ask the minister what has happened to require this drastic change. I will ask him another question. He says that this has come to him on the recommendation of his officials, and of course the official with whom it originated is the Indian agent in the district concerned. How many years has that gentleman been Indian agent?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I regret very much that I am unable at the moment to give that information.


Alan Webster Neill: I am willing to supply it. He has been Indian agent for about two or possibly three years. I am familiar with his pedigree before that, and it did not suggest any intimacy with Indian affairs. Now that was the spirit in which this action originated. He recommends it to the commissioner, the commissioner recommends it to the deputy, and so it goes; but it started with the Indian agent. With all respect to that gentleman-I honour him as a Christian and esteem him as a brother countryman-I do say that he has not had very much experience as an Indian agent. The minister suggests trying out this legislation for two or three years; I would advise trying out that Indian agent for two or three years, and if at the end of that time he has not changed his opinion but still thinks that such a change as this is necessary, then the change may be made. If he does not agree then that the wise thing to do is to persuade the Indians to give up any excesses that may exist, instead of trying to attain that object by unjust and indefensible methods, then it will be time to make the change.


Ernest Lapointe: Is that the agent at Alert Bay?


Alan Webster Neill: Yes; the minister knows about it.


Herbert Earl Wilton: I am in accord with the arguments of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni. It is almost ridiculous to put on the statute boks a provision that will penalize a particular class of people merely because they
\ Mr. Crerar.]
are unfortunate enough not to be able to
protect themselves to a greater extent than they can at present. As has been pointed out they are liable to conviction merely for thinking or imagining something. If the principle of this legislation were put into force we should all be in gaol.


Mr. TAYLOR (Nanaimo):: I strongly support the attitude of my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni. This provision should be left out of the bill. It is just possible that the Indian agent, who has been there a short time, wishes to show his zeal and has probably been prompted by commercial interests in the vicinity of the district in which the potlatch is held. I believe that if you went into the matter carefully you would discover that that was at the bottom of the whole idea. If a man spends his money with a certain firm and is therefore unable, having bought a lot of goods there, to spend money with a competing concern, there arises a difference which is brought to the attention of the Indian agent. By and large I am disposed to think that the Indians are correcting their own ideas of the past and assimilating rapidly those of the whites with whom they mix. I believe it would be better to leave the law as it was before this amendment was put forward.


René-Antoine Pelletier: If I can come to the
assistance of the minister to any extent I shall do so with pleasure. Section 13 in the explanatory notes, referring to this matter, states that particularly the more progressive elements among the Indians had had something to say about the form of certain parts of the Indian Act. May I ask the minister whether certain of the more progressive elements within the tribe concur with the Indian agent in suggesting the addition of these words?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes; they do. It is at their request.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I cannot say definitely of
my own knowledge to what extent that is the case. But after all, may I draw the attention of the committee to the fact that the principle of suppressing any evils associated with the potlatch has been recognized in the law for over fifty years; and the provisions, as my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) pointed out a moment ago, have been rather stringent. All that this seeks to do is to-strengthen those provisions. While I am not a lawyer, I do not imagine that any justice-of the peace would convict an Indian under the amendment unless he had definite, clear evidence that he was accumulating these goods for the purpose of a potlatch. I can-

Indian Act
not see the force of the objections that have been raised by my hon. friends. As I have said, the amendment seeks to strengthen the section, and I think it will probably have that effect.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This is precisely
the kind of language that is used in a certain rather notorious piece of legislation, section 98 of the criminal code, to which some of us have in other connections strenuously objected. I believe it is good British law that a man is not charged with a crime until a crime has been committed. I object to a man being charged with crime before the crime is committed. This is what this clause of the amendment provides, that if a man is not only giving these goods away, but accumulating them with the thought that he might give them away, he is guilty of an offence. The word is definitely "before"- before any overt act takes place.


Mr. THORSON:: He accumulates those.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The accumulation
is a crime, the accumulation of goods with a view to doing something with them. I think it is bad law to make this a crime. My friend the hon. member for Selkirk, a former dean of the law school, is somewhat of an expert in this matter, and I stand to be corrected by him. But I think I am right in saying that the very essence of British law is that a man is not guilty until he has done some overt act. The same criticism arises, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill), in connection with the second clause of this amendment relating to a person suspected of being guilty of a certain thing. I do not like that. It does not seem to me that we ought to have a search warrant given merely on suspicion.	[DOT]


Ernest Lapointe: It has
always been that way.


James Shaver Woodsworth: In these days we
are going altogether too far in that line. Possibly in connection with some opium matters it may be necessary, although even with regard to such a matter I am always a little suspicious of this kind of legislation. But merely because a man is accumulating some goods or making some preparations does not, it seems to me, afford any real ground for giving a search warrant. You say: Well, this legislation applies to Indians. But even an Indian has inherent rights. We have had the same situation in connection with our labour movement. If a man is suspected the police can break into his house, look through his library and search his papers. I say that that kind of legislation is unfair
and un-British. The man is merely suspected of an offence. If it is found that he has been accumulating goods with the intention of giving them away a search warrant may be granted, but, as the member for Comox-Alberni has well put it, even a magistrate cannot say exactly what a man's intention is. Magistrates may be very expert, but they cannot X-ray a man's mind. But if it is thought that he has been accumulating with the intention of taking part in this ceremony, he is liable to have his goods seized. I do not think this is fair. The minister constantly urges that the idea is to do away with potlatch. Our criticism is not primarily related to the potlatch or to evils that allegedly go with it; our objection is to a type of legislation which, to some of us at least, seems absolutely un-British. I hope that the minister can see his way to withdraw this amendment.


Mr. PLUNKETT:: I should like to comment on this from another point of view. Many Indians are collectors of furs and pelts for sale. Supposing a man has a number of these furs in his home, and he has an enemy- perhaps another Indian, perhaps a white man- although he may be a saving man, accumulating them to give to some of his sons and daughters when they get married, his enemy might whisper in the ear of the authorities: This is for a potlatch. Is it fair to expose the Indians to that risk by making these laws any more stringent? The present law is working well; the Indians are acting well; why add something that may be an irritant, may make the Indian dissatisfied, may create trouble for the law officers, and may entail additional cost in enforcing the law in many ways when there is no need for this? I do hope that the minister will reconsider this and not put the amendment into law.


Ernest Edward Perley: May I appeal to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) on this point? It seems to me that we have discussed it for quite a while to-day; that there is a real difference of opinion on the subject, and that it had better stand for a little more information. The reason I suggest this is that the minister himself has stated that the old law has been working very well and that the abuses of this potlatch system have been gradually reduced. If that is the case, and we are gradually coming to the time when they will disappear, I am in accord with my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) that it may be as well to leave well enough alone at the present time. At all events I think there should be some information before the committee as to the
Indian Act

frequency of this ceremony of potlatch twenty years ago, ten years ago, five years ago, and of recent date, to show whether there is a necessity for strengthening the law in this way. I think the Minister of Justice will consider that it is a severe provision to put into a statute to punish people for collecting goods for a purpose which they have in mind. It is going to be very hard for anybody to prove that that is their reason for collecting. I think the minister said that he did not know who the agent was in this particular locality who had made this recommendation.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Unless the intent could be proved, no penalty would apply.


Ernest Edward Perley: No. This recommendation came originally from the Indian agent out there, I take it; it has come through the department and has been put up to the minister through the officials of the department. The minister has told us more than once to-day that he has been in office such a short time that he has really not been able to get into touch with all these different matters. I suggest that he have the question gone into as to how the act has worked, and let us take this up again. He can then bring his official here in order that, if questions are asked, he will be able to supply any information which at present the minister does not possess.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am quite willing, if hon. members wish it, to let this clause stand. I do not know that very much additional information can be supplied respecting it.


Ernest Edward Perley: Oh, yes, there must be.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: As I have already indicated, this difficulty is confined practically to one instance in British Columbia where these celebrations persist. I think my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woods-worth) was a little far-fetched in the argument he advanced this afternoon. There is a real abuse in connection with this. Let me give my hon. friend an illustration. An Indian on the reserve may have a family. He decides to give a potlatch. He then commences to accumulate goods for that purpose; it may be flour; it may be sugar; it may be blankets; it may be anything, but his whole effort and attention are concentrated on the idea of collecting goods to give away. In the meantime there is real hardship on his family. After this event takes place in all likelihood his family are on public relief. It may be, as my hon. friend from Comox-Albemi has stated, that the proposed legislation is rather stringent, but it is simply extending the 
principle that has been in the law for fifty years, namely, to try to break down this practice among these Indians. I am quite willing, however, to let the clause stand.
Section stands.
On section 14-Who shall be deemed elected.


Mark Cecil Senn: I should like to ask why the qualification necessary is the possession of a house. As I understand the matter, Indians on the reserve of which I have some knowledge do not own the land; that is the property of the band, but they do own the improvements on the land. An Indian may have a bam or fences or a good many other improvements on the property even though he does not have a house on it. He may live on the next farm, but under this section he must own a house and have it on his property before he is eligible for election to council. It seems to me that some other qualification should be the deciding factor with regard to an Indian's qualifications for election to council.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know whether my hon. friend has read the explanatory note accompanying this section, but that sets out very clearly the purpose of the amendment.
Mr, SENN: That does not answer the question. I quite understand that for many years the provision has been that an Indian must own a house on the reserve before being eligible for election to council. He may have a barn or fences or other improvements on a good farm within the reserve, but the house may be on the next farm that he has rented. That makes him ineligible for election to council. If he has other property equivalent in value to a house I do not see why he should be debarred from becoming a councillor. I would suggest that a property qualification such as the municipalities have, to the amount of say, $400 of personal property or real estate, would be a better arrangement, but I do not think it fair to make it incumbent upon a man to possess that one particular qualification of owning a house.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The suggestion of my hon. friend would necessitate a further amendment to the act. At the present time an Indian who desires to qualify as a councillor has not only to be possessed of a house on the reserve but also to live in the house. By this amendment we seek to effect a change so that while he will have to own a house on the reserve, it will not be necessary for him to live in that particular house in order to qualify as a councillor.

Supply-Agriculture-Dairying


Mark Cecil Senn: I quite understand that.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It makes it easier for him to qualify for the position.


Mark Cecil Senn: I quite understand that it makes it easier for him to qualify as a councillor, but I cannot understand why he must have this particular qualification. He might own other property far more valuable than a house; he might have vested interests in the band; he might have other qualifications such as education, experience and good judgment, but even though he possess all these other qualifications, if he does not own a house he cannot qualify for council. It seems to me that the minister might very well consider some other method.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I might say that this has been the law for a great many years, and no instances of hardship have come to my notice. While I appreciate very much the observations of the hon. gentleman in connection with the matter he has drawn to my attention, I do not think it is really as important as he thinks it is.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Progress reported.

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that the clerk of the house has received from the chief electoral officer certificate of the election and return of the following member, viz:
Of J. Ralph Kirk, Esq., for the electoral district of Antigonish-Guysborough.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Bradette in the chair.



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Dairying, $256,000.
Mr. THOMPSON:: Does this item include bonus to be paid on cheese, or a continuation of the bonus that was paid last year? Also, why the decrease of $812?


Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :: The answer to the first question is
no. The item in connection with the cheese bonus will come in the supplementary estimates, if any further payment is to be made.
As to the $812 decrease, I can answer best by reading the items included in the expenditure and indicating the increases and decreases. Communications and services, an increase of $26550. Equipment, a decrease
of $525. Grants, subsidies and contributions are the same. Miscellaneous current expenses, an increase of $260. Personal services, an increase of $6,814. Professional and special services a decrease of $1,500. Rents, a decrease of $255. Supplies, materials, printing, binding, engraving and lithographing, a decrease of $2,096. Transportation of things, a decrease of $41570. Transportation and travel expenses of persons, an increase of $894.50. Setting off the increases against the decreases there is a net decrease of $812.


Mr. TUSTIN:: In the lithographing and
printing, is there anything included for advertising dairy products?


James Garfield Gardiner: No, nothing provided
there for advertising.


Harry James Barber: Comparing last year's
appropriation, $256,812, I believe that included the supplementaries, because I notice that in. last year's main estimates the item appeared as $249,000. So while a decrease is shown here, I imagine that when the supplementaries come down it will mean that this is not a decrease.


James Garfield Gardiner: The amount I have in my statement shows the same for both years within $812.


Harry James Barber: That is including the
supplementaries?


James Garfield Gardiner: I am informed that there were not any supplementaries last year.


Harry James Barber: The amount that appeared in the main estimates for the year 1935-36 was $249,000.


James Garfield Gardiner: The five per cent
salary deduction is added to this. A year ago it was ten per cent.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: Does this item include salaries of the officials?


James Garfield Gardiner: Yes; the amount for
personal services covers salaries.


Mark Cecil Senn: I think the minister would
be well advised at this time to give us, if possible, some idea of the intentions of the government in regard to the further bonus-ing of cheese.


James Garfield Gardiner: The hon. member will
understand that matters of that kind have first to be discussed in council, and the supplementaries have not yet been before council, so I am not in a position to make a statement.


Mark Cecil Senn: No decision has been reached?


James Garfield Gardiner: No.

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Mark Cecil Senn: Could the minister give some information as to what occurred in connection with the cheese bonus? Is it still being paid; has the full amount of the vote been expended, and when did the bonus cease to be operative?


James Garfield Gardiner: While it does not come under this vote, but comes under the supple-mentaries, I have no objection to giving what information is available. The total amount paid to the end of February was 81,083,508.21, or $83,508.21 more than the vote provided last year to take care of it. The amount paid was li cents per pound on all production, beginning in July and running to the end of December, but some of the payments were made in January and February.


George James Tustin: Is it the intention of the government to do any advertising to develop a market for dairy products in this or any other country?


James Garfield Gardiner: So far the policy followed in the department has been not to advertise commercial products but to promote markets for them in other ways. Advertising has not been carried on by the department. No provision is made to change that policy.


Mark Cecil Senn: What is being done in the way of grading butter for both export and domestic consumption? I understand that some provinces have asked to have grading of butter undertaken. If so, to what extent is official grading being carried on?


James Garfield Gardiner: I understand that all butter is graded that enters into export trade. There are in Canada only four provinces, that is the western provinces, Manitoba, Saskatchewan Alberta and British Columbia, that have adopted grading of butter. In those provinces all creamery butter is graded.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Subsidies for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, $39,500.39.
Mr. POULIOT:: Has anybody been transferred from the Department of National Defence to the Department of Agriculture to work in connection with cold storage warehouses?


James Garfield Gardiner: Not to my knowledge.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister and I congratulate him, I think it is a great mistake to have people from the Department of National Defence transferred to other departments. This should be stopped. Yesterday the Minister of National Revenue told us that there are no such men in his department; I see the same situation exists in the Department of

Agriculture, and I congratulate the minister upon not having such people. They are a pest; if they were in the Department of Agriculture they would be an agricultural pest.


Thomas Alfred Thompson: How many cold storage plants are being operated, and where are they located? Also where does this decrease of 8154,189.95 come in?


James Garfield Gardiner: The department of course does not operate cold storage warehouses. All that has been done by the department is to subsidize cold storage plants. The number of warehouses subsidized under the Cold Storage Act is eighty-two. The total cost is 88,228,812.64 extending over some years. The total subsidies amounted to 82,468,194.


James Joseph McCann: Are those operating or
capital subsidies?


James Garfield Gardiner: Capital subsidies, covering thirty per cent of the original cost.


Jean-François Pouliot: May I bring to the attention of the committee the fact that very often the farmers suffer because they have not enough cold storage warehouses. They have to sell their butter to intermediaries, or inbetween merchants in the larger cities. If a farmer could have the advantage of a cold storage warehouse he could keep the butter from the season when it sells at a low price until the fall and winter months when it sells at a higher rate, thereby deriving the benefit of storing for a few months. I suggest that this would be a paying proposition. At a meeting in Riviere du Loup I advocated this principle before -the provincial Minister of Agriculture. At that point a cold storage plant has been built with the help of the Department of Agriculture. It was built to serve a good purpose, but unfortunately the attention of the farmers has not been directed to its use; they do not realize that by the investment of a small amount of money in cold storage facilities they could store two carloads of butter which would give them a clear profit of at least $6,000 at the end of the year.
We must regret that the profit is made not by the farmer, as is the case in other countries, but by the go-between at the expense of the farmer and -the consumer. If bu-tter were kept in warehouses belonging to cooperative butter producing farmers both they and the consumers would benefit. The consumer could buy butter at a cheaper rate later in the year. Last year when I drew this matter to the attention of the minister's illustrious predecessor I did not receive a satisfactory reply; in fact I did not receive any during the last five years. However, we now have

Supply-Agriculture-Cold Storage
at the head of the department a very able man, and one who is ready to do anything he can to help the farmers. I suggest to him that some steps should be taken to give the farmer an opportunity to have his own cold storage warehouse in which he may keep his butter and cheese, and thereby benefit from the increase in price in the winter months. This is a humible suggestion submitted earnestly for the attention of the minister.


James Garfield Gardiner: The policy of the
government has been to pay thirty per cent to any organization, whether it be privately organized, or of a cooperative type. They make application for a grant amounting to thirty per cent of the capital cost, and the department then makes an inspection to ascertain whether the plant would be a paying concern and would benefit the people in the area. If the plant is found to be satisfactory the thirty per cent is paid, whether it is privately owned or cooperative. It would be possible for a cooperative organization to get support.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister for
his explanation. The importance of such a cold storage warehouse was stressed by the provincial Minister of Agriculture. I know that suoh a plant has been built in Rimouski, as my distinguished friend from that constituency might tell the committee. The difficulty in Quebec is that there is a large cooperative which is supposed to serve the whole province. I believe this is a great mistake, because the cost of management is too heavy. I am in favour of decentralization in everything, and urge that there should be decentralization of warehouses so that they may be near the farmers who would use them. When the provincial minister at Quebec understands that what we need in the province is not only a huge cooperative organization in Montreal but decentralized units in all small centres, with warehouses in distant localities, the farmer will reap more profits from butter, cheese and dressed meats. It is important that authorities of every province should have a clear understanding of the facts, and I suggest that the money spent in this way is properly spent.


Sir EUGENE FISET:: Have any subsidies been paid to the cooperative society in Rimouski, which erected its storage plant two years ago?


James Garfield Gardiner: Application for the grant was not made until after the plant had been constructed. The then Minister of Justice gave a ruling to the effect that it was not possible to make payment under the prevailing regulations. The matter is again up for consideration, and I am not in a position to say whether payment will be made. At the present time it has not been made.


Eugène Fiset: I understood that special provision would be made in the estimates, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in any act, and that a grant of thirty per cent would be made.


Mr. DOUGLAS:: Could the minister give the distribution of the eighty-two cold storage warehouses?


James Garfield Gardiner: They are located in all the provinces; there are others in addition to those for which provision is being made this year.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: How many are there in each province?


Mr. SPENCE:: The hon. member for Temis-couata-


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bradette):: The question has not been answered yet.


James Houston Spence: When may I say a word?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Let the minister answer.


James Houston Spence: I have asked a dozen times.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: The hon. member may speak after the minister gives his answer.


James Garfield Gardiner: The officials will give the hon. member for Weyburn the figures he wants.


James Houston Spence: The hon. member for Temis-couata may know something about law; I hope he does. I am not a judge of that. I hope, however, that the government will pay no attention to his views on cold storage matters. I believe it is wrong for the government to encourage either cooperative or private interests to establish cold storage warehouses. There are already too many of them, and the presence of such buildings encourages farmers and everybody else to put stuff into cold storage. Seventy-five per cent of the time they lose more money than they make. That is my information, and that is what I know from experience. It would be better if many of these big shipments of butter, and cheese, cream, fruit, apples and everything else were kept in some place other than cold storage. People put them in there and think they have only to wait until to-morrow for a rise in price, but for the last five years prices have been dropping all the time, and invariably they have received less money than they could have got. The minute you interfere with the old channels

Supply-Agriculture-Cold Storage
of trade which have been in existence for centuries, you start trouble. The cold storage plants in Toronto are not paying at all. Some of them are losing barrels of money, and my advice to the government would be to keep away as much as possible from subsidizing these cold storage plants.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the hon. member for Parkdale for the degree of heraldry he has conferred upon me. I shall have it framed and assign it a place of honour in my office. While my hon. friend speaks on behalf of those Who live in the cities, I speak on behalf of the producers themselves, a point of view which my hon. friend has not yet understood. He seems to look at the matter more from the point of view of the go-between than of that of the farmer, but it is on behalf of the farmers, and the consumers as well that I speak.


James Houston Spence: I am the best friend the farmers have ever had in the business world. I have been working in their interests for many years. The hon. member can get my record from Ontario or Nova Scotia or any other place. I have dealt with farmers all my life. I say that the government are encouraging too much cold storage. It will never pay, and they might as well make up their minds not to encourage it too much.


Jean-François Pouliot: If my hon. friend is the farmers' best friend, he should have mercy on the farmers.


James Houston Spence: That may be my hon. friend's view because he knows nothing about the matter.


Mr. McIVOR:: It is all right for one Irishman to disagree with another, especially when they come from different counties. May I say that the outstanding need of my constituency is to have a place to which the farmers can ship their eggs and butter and other produce so that they will not have to take bottom prices. The farmers of my community have the best right to a decent price, above the right of an3' corporation or any cold storage, and I am looking forward to the day when we shall have at Fort William a cold storage plant that will be of some benefit to the farmers who have now to take bottom prices.


James Houston Spence: Has the hon. member not one there now?


Thomas Alfred Thompson: I think this cold storage subsidy has been beneficial to the dairy industry, particularly to cheese. We have a number of small cheese factories all over the
fMr. Spence. 1
country which are not properly equipped to cure cheese, and the cheese is shipped to cold storage plants and kept there until it is matured. Hon. gentlemen no doubt know that cheese improves from the day it is made until it is about two years old, while butter deteriorates from the day it is made the longer you keep it, but nevertheless it is essential that there should be proper cold storage facilities for preserving it. I do not think it would be advisable for a cold storage plant to be maintained by the government in every small centre so long as we have sufficient accommodation to take care of dairy products, but I am quite satisfied that these subsidies are money well spent.


Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas: What is the reason for the decrease of $154,189.95 in this item?


James Garfield Gardiner: The amount in the
estimates is for commitments to date. Anything further would have to be looked after in the supplementaries.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Has any subsidy been
paid to cold storage warehouses in Edmonton, and, if so, to what company?


James Garfield Gardiner: The Edmonton Cold
Storage Company receives a subsidy.


Mark Cecil Senn: Just how many companies
are being paid subsidies at the present time? Two or three years ago four new contracts were entered into. Would the minister give us the names of the companies with which these contracts were made, and the amount that is being paid to each of them?


James Garfield Gardiner: The subsidy is a capital one, and once it is paid we are through with it. There were eighty-two companies which received a subsidy prior to this year, and a number are provided for this year. I have not the names of the eighty-two companies, but if my hon. friend wants-


Mark Cecil Senn: Perhaps the minister would
give us the names and locations of the companies receiving subsidies this year.


James Garfield Gardiner: The plants are at
Kaleden, B. C.; Kelowna, B. C.; Colling-wood, Ont.; Thedford. Ont.; Berwick, N.S.; Forest, Ont.; Woodstock, Ont.; Salmon Arm, B.C.; Kelowna, B.C.; Kentville, N.S.; Kelowna, B.C.; Port Haney, B.C.; Park Corner, P.E.I.; Aldershot, Ont.; Nelson, B.C.; Summerland, B.C.; Kelowna, B.C.; Penticton, B.C.; St. Thomas, Ont.; Simcoe, Ont.; Thornbury, Ont.; Kelowna, B.C.; Meaford, Ont. They are mostly in Ontario and British Columbia.

Civil Service Act


Mark Cecil Senn: Evidently from the location
of these warehouses a good many of them are for fruit. Could the minister give a rough idea how many were designed for the accommodation of dairy produce, and how many for fruit? I know that products of all kinds will be stored in them, but there must have been a particular object in view at the time these plants were built, and most of those which the minister read out seemed to be in fruit districts.


James Garfield Gardiner: Practically all of those are in areas in which fruit and vegetables are the most important products. During the last five years only two have been provided for dairy products particularly, the reason being that cold storage for dairy products was provided at an earlier date.


Mark Cecil Senn: Some reference was made
a few moments ago by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Mclvor) to a warehouse at Fort William for the use of farmers. Could the minister give the committee any information as to the extent to which these warehouses are being used by farmers, or are they being used more by middlemen, dealing in various commodities?
Progress reported.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.



CIVIL SERVICE ACT

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed, from Tuesday, March 17, ' consideration of the motion of Mr. Boulanger for the second reading of Bill No. 9, to amend the Civil Service Act (vacancies, outside service, priority of returned soldiers).
Mr. W. R. TOMLINSON (Bruce):: When I was interrupted the other evening I was trying to prove that the Civil Service Act had not had the benefit of cooperation from the former Conservative government. On that occasion I was discussing the position of lightkeeper, which carries a salary of S150 a year. Any position with a salary greater than that comes under the civil service commission. Though I was not able to recommend a man for that position I was asked to recommend a man for a postmastership entailing a salary of $2,000 a year or thereabouts. In my opinion the act as it now stands is not uniform; it confuses me and probably other members as well, for I do not know what positions actually do come under the
commission. I suggest to the present government that the act should be made more uniform. If positions are to be under the civil service commission a definite limit in regard to salary should be established. I made certain allegations with regard to abuses that had crept into the act, and I think, in view of these allegations, we should decide upon some method whereby the abuses may be removed.
I believe that the Civil Service Act is a remarkable one; the merit system is to be commended. I would point out, however, that Canada is a vast country and conditions here are different from conditions in England. I admit that in Great Britain any candidate or any member of parliament who suggested to the civil service commission there the appointment of any particular person to a position would be ruined. But, I repeat, this is a vast country. The commission is located at Ottawa and thousands of miles away it becomes necessary to appoint someone to the position of lightkeeper, with a salary of $150 a year. Is it sensible to send an examiner all the way from Ottawa to hold an oral examination in order to appoint that man? It does not seem sensible. The former government saw fit to increase the revenue limit in connection with post offices to $3,000 a year, and we have had no trouble in appointments under $3,000, so that probably that would be a reasonable basis on which to make these appointments.
I was not able to read the whole of it, because it is quite long, but I did read parts of an excellent report prepared by the late Hon. James Malcolm in 1923. It was one of the most remarkable reports ever presented in connection with the Civil Service Act, and it is well worth reading. It sets out certain evils and recommends amendments that would be beneficial. In my opinion a member of parliament should be at liberty to speak to the commission with regard to any appointment that is to be made in his riding. As a member I do not think I should have to sneak through the back door to speak to the commission; I do not think I should be placed in that position.
In this large country and with conditions such as they are to-day, I believe that every member is interested in the poor man. The member realizes that any small position that can be given is helpful, and he wishes to assist the poorer classes, for they are the ones that need help; and no one knows these people better than does the member. I am speaking now of the $150 job, which would be of assistance to any poor man 'and his family. Certain qualifications are
Civil Service Act

necessary if a man is to fill the position of lightkeeper satisfactorily, but there is in my riding a man of seventy-seven who has that position. I have not one word to say against 'him; he is an honourable man. But he is seventy-seven and somebody else has to light the lights for him; yet he is supposedly in active service to-day. Obviously, therefore, an age limit is necessary. Under the Civil Service Act I believe it is sixty-five, but apparently that is not quite satisfactory because you will find order in council after order in council setting aside that particular provision in respect of certain appointments. The act might be amended to fix the limit at seventy years.
I submit that the member should be notified before any appointment is actually made in his riding. I do not say that he should have patronage altogether, but he should first be notified, and if he has reason to argue with the commission against the advisability of appointing anyone he should be heard. For, after all, he is elected by the people of that particular riding and he knows the conditions. Our situation is different from that in Great Britain. There some 500 members or more represent a very small island, while in Canada 245 members represent a very wide territory, and the members of the civil service commission do not know the people personally. Therefore, with respect to any of these small positions in any riding I suggest that the member should be notified before the appointment is actually made, and if he has any particular objection he ought to be able to go to the commission and say so. I do not think that he should have to sneak through the back door. That is not right.
I do not believe in the whole bill. I do not believe that we should open our whole outside service to patronage; I think to do so would be a disaster. I have in mind one instance in the post office service, in respect of the rural mail service, which is apparently the outside service. The man I have in mind gave perfect service immediately after this election. I intended to rectify what the former defeated Conservative candidate did in that riding in the last five years. The official concerned spent two hours with me; he knew every mail route in my riding, and he gave me valuable assistance. But a great many little appointments could easily be left to the member for the riding. This would save this country a great deal of expense; it would avoid all the red tape which a man has to go through to-day in connection with these small appointments, and for which not he, but the whole country has to pay. Think how easy it is to make one of these small appointments

directly through the member; it is only a matter of one letter; whereas if an appointment goes through the civil service commission it has to pass through about one dozen channels; I counted them; I looked through them in connection with the Malcolm report, where they had them set out. We could save that money, and we have to save money to-day.
I do not agree with this bill as it is printed, but it has certain merits. I am willing to take the word of the Secretary of State (Mr. Rinfret) that the government is not accepting the principle of the bill, but that he desires that it go to a committee to be studied. I am anxious that some method be found whereby we can take the canker spots from the Civil Service Act, because certain provisions of the act as it stands remind me of a provision of the election act whereby no candidate is allowed to pay for cabs for hauling voters to the polls; nobody respects that provision. That is exactly the position in this case. Until you have an act which the people respect you cannot enforce it. The present act is like the Ontario Temperance Act in that respect. That is why I desire that the act shall be amended so that the people will respect it, I cannot make them respect it the way it is to-day. I ask that, if possible, it be referred to a committee and' be amended.
Mr. D. A. McNIVEN (Regina); May I at the very outset state that as a result of my past experience I am opposed to the principle of this bill. On second reading of a bill we are committed to the principle of it and having endorsed the principle, thereafter it can only be altered in a matter of detail. I would like to add, though, that if by way of substantive motion the government or any private member should deem it his duty to introduce a motion to refer the Civil Service Act to a committee of this house for investigation and full report, I would be pleased indeed to support such a motion.
During the progress of this debate there have been a couple of incidents which, to my mind, transcend in importance even the principle of this bill. I have always listened with a good deal of respect and attention to everything the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) has to say, and I was particularly surprised at some of the statements he made the other evening in discussing the principle of the bill. I could not understand the vehemence of the outbursts which accompanied his declarations during the progress of his address. In particular he is reported in Hansard, at page 1179, as using this language:
But I do object to a private member introducing a bill of this kind, having such far-

Civil Service Act
reaching effects, and the house being expected to pass it through on second reading, that is to give assent to the principle underlying the bill.
I am more than surprised that for the second time during this session the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre should take exception to a private member exercising his rights and performing his duty on the floor of this house. This is a direct criticism of a private member who has the courage to stand on the floor of the house and express his ideas with respect to abuses that exist and the method of clearing them up.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. Speaker, as a matter of privilege-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order. Sit down.


Mr.   I@: As a matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker.-


Walter Edward Foster: A question of privilege?


James Shaver Woodsworth: The hon. member has entirely misunderstood my position.


An hon. MEMBER:: He read the words.


James Shaver Woodsworth: My criticism was of the government, not of a private member.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Ernest Lapointe: That is not a question of privilege.
Mr. McNIVEN (Regina) >
May I say that my surprise was accentuated because I come from a part of the country where his followers without exception have opposed the alleged crack of the party whip and everything connoted by that expression, and have strongly criticized members of the old parties because of alleged subservience and alleged unwillingness to assume responsibility. Because the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Boulanger) has had the courage to introduce this bill and to discuss it in the even manner in which he has discussed it, he is criticized for his independence.
There is another matter which surprised me in the course of the hon. member's address. He was greatly concerned for the future of the Liberal party. He made a direct appeal to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King). He then singled out the members of the government one after another; then he made a direct appeal to us who emanate from western Canada, and after that he gave a warning to the whole of the rest of the Liberal party, and, in addition, a little course of instruction to us, as new members, on what we were expected to do and what might be done. Then he went on to state:
Yesterday we had the spectacle in the house of the Prime Minister telling the members that 12739-84
they must not vote for an amendment that would mean a lower tariff on agricultural implements.
It may not be part of my responsibility, Mr. Speaker, to refer to that in the presence of the Prime Minister; I know he will take care of that statement himself. But I was in the house at that time, and as I understood the Prime Minister's remark, it was not an instruction that we must not do something; he was pointing out what had been repeated time and again on the floor of this chamber, namely, that if the Canada-United States agreement was to pass this house it had to be accepted in its entirety, and for that reason a motion for the free entry of agricultural implements could not then be accepted but could be discussed after the budget was introduced. Then the hon. gentleman went on, and this is the part that concerns me most as a private member and as a supporter of the Liberal party:
There can be no threat held b5r the Prime Minister or any member of the government over private members for standing up for what I think a great many of them really believe, and for what I know a great many of their constituents really believe.
In my short experience I have had the privilege of sitting as a supporter of three Liberal premiers, all three of whom are members of this house at the present time. Never on any occasion during the eight years I was in the provincial house of Saskatchewan was anything in the nature of a threat held out by any Liberal premier with whom I had the pleasure of being associated, and I may say that that is absolutely true also so far as the distinguished leader of our party, the present Prime Minister of Canada, is concerned. Nothing like that was ever suggested to us; we were given absolute freedom of thought and of expression, to espouse or to oppose any measure according to our own inclinations. The only responsibility that we were ever asked to observe was that if we intended to oppose any government measure we should be good enough to tell the whip of our intention. Nothing could be fairer than that. I think the Prime Minister, the present leader of the Liberal party, would have some cause for concern, worry and disapproval if he thought the members supporting him in this house gave their support to any measure because of any inclination, thought or action of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth). The hon. member referred to "what I think a great many of them really believe," and "what I know a great many of their constituents really believe." I do deprecate such a contention as that put forward by the hon.

Civil Service Act

member and I think that his strictures are of even greater importance than the principle of this particular bill.
The civil service has been in the maelstrom of politics ever since confederation. From 1868 to 1882 no fewer than four royal commissions were appointed in Canada for the purpose of making surveys and reports on the civil service. In 1877 Mr. Cayley, then a member of this house, introduced a measure sponsoring very wide spread reforms and the introduction of the merit system, but though his measure passed the house nothing came of it. In 1882 another royal commission was appointed, because the government of the day had come to the conclusion that there were not enough governmental positions to accommodate the whole male population of the country. That is pretty much the situation to-day. Again in 1891 a royal commission was appointed to make a survey of the civil service, but nothing came of it. Then in 1893 there was a change of government and matters continued in pretty much the same way until 1907, because from 1896 to 1907 there was a wave of prosperity throughout the country made possible by the application of Liberal principles and policies. In 1907 another royal commission was appointed to investigate and report on the civil service, and in 1908, following that report, a civil service act was introduced and the first civil service commission was established in Canada. It is true that the Civil Service Act of that day did not extend to the outside service, but it did cover the inside service. In 1911 there was a change of government, and between September, 1911, and 1914 there were no less than 11,000 dismissals from the civil service. So great was the disruption of the service due to the conduct of the government of that day that they deemed it wise to appoint still another royal commission in 1912 or 1913. The war broke out before any action could be taken on the report of that commission. Finally in 1918 the present Civil Service Act was passed, and it has been the law of this land ever since. I agree with many hon. members who have spoken thus far, that there is much of merit in the present Civil Service Act, but that is no reason why this house should not now investigate the ramifications of that act and its application to our far-flung dominion, and endeavour to improve it.
Reference has been made to a good many things that have happened in the application of that act. One provision that meets with popular disapproval is that applicants are required to sit for an examination and to pay a fee of one dollar. In one case there
[Mr. D. A. McNiven.J
were ninety-three applicants for a particular position; each applicant paid one dollar; one man obtained the appointment and ninety-two were advised that they were on the eligible list. Within a year that eligible list was cancelled and ninety-two people were disappointed. In my own city one position in the weights and measures branch remained vacant from April of 1931, another from July of 1934 and a third from July of 1935. All three positions were filled in August and September of last year, just before the election. About two weeks before October 14 an official who had presided over a department in the city of Regina was removed from that department and brought to Ottawa and an Ottawa man was sent west to take his place. Nobody knows what the reason was; nobody has yet been able to ascertain it. That situation was corrected.
I refer to this matter only as an indication, along with some of the other observations that have been made, that there is much that should be investigated and much that might be improved.
I had not intended to take as much time as I have, but before I sit down I would like to join with other hon. members who have already spoken in paying homage and respect to the Canadian soldier. It is little enough to do for the Canadian soldier to maintain that preference which he enjoys under the present act. At the same time I am not at all sure that the Canadian soldier would ask that the act be administered so as to exclude the Imperial. When we go to the senate chamber and look at that magnificent painting depicting the landing of the first British troops in France, and when we think of the exploits of the "Contemptibles," their heroism displayed at Mons, this country should show them every regard and give them every consideration in its public service. Also we must remember that following the war, by a concerted plan of both governments Imperial returned men were encouraged to come to this country. At the present time I know a man who is applying for a position, who was in the navy for the whole of the four war years, who was a member of the crew of a convoy ship that convoyed Canadian troops from our shores to Great Britain and France, who was actually torpedoed and whose ship was sunk, and who came to this country at our invitation. I would not like to see anything incorporated in our act that Would exclude a man who has given such splendid service to the empire from any position for which his merit qualifies him.
We have a good civil service, and the permanency Of that service is something which

will benefit the Canadian people. The public conies into daily contact with these men, and is entitled to the very best service that can be given in the administration of the affairs of this country.
I have already expressed my opposition to the principle of this bill, for the reasons I have stated, and I wish to affirm again that if it is possible to have the Civil Service Act and the officials who are administering it brought before a committee of this house I would gladly give that the full measure of my support.


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: Before the vote is taken on this motion there are a few words that I wish to say. First, I want to thank the hon. member for Belle-chasse (Mr. Boulanger) for the way he introduced this bill, because he stated clearly and definitely its objects. That makes the discussion much easier. He said that the bill has four objects in view: First, to place the outside civil service beyond the control of the civil service commission, and, second, to make it obligatory for the civil service commission to consult heads of departments before making appointments or promotions, in order that the last word in making such appointments or promotions may be with the heads of departments and not with the commission. I would ask hon. members when considering this bill to have regard to the citizens and taxpayers, the people of Canada. There are millions of taxpayers many of whom are in areas in which there are hardly any civil servants, but they contribute to the salaries of the civil service, and they look to the civil service of Canada to be above politics. When they have occasion to visit any public office I am glad to say that for the most part they are received by the civil servants there with courtesy and given what information they need, and they usually find the civil service capable.
But if this bill is passed in its present form and the objects as described by the hon. member who introduced it are achieved, what will be the result? The bill means definitely that the minister of each department will make the appointments; no other meaning can be taken from it. I feel sorry for the ministers, for, peculiar as it may seem, Conservatives have sometimes a little sympathy with Liberal ministers, as I hope at times Liberals have with Conservative ministers. After trying for fifteen or twenty years to build up an efficient civil service in this country, why should we tear it down completely and destroy it and
12739-Mj
Civil Service Act
cause the people of Canada to lose their faith and confidence in parliamentary measures?
This bill deals with promotion. It would mean that many civil servants who had hoped to work their way up in the service would see someone brought in from the outside-


Malcolm McLean: That is what they did.


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: I quite appreciate that the hon. gentleman's party might do it.


Malcolm McLean: You did it.


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: And I give them full credit for it.


Malcolm McLean: We did not do it.


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: You have a majority now and it is your privilege to enforce this measure. Your party was in power from 1921 to 1930; why did you not make these changes then that are now suggested by a private member?
The effect of this legislation on the efficiency of the civil service can readily be understood. What would the older members of the civil service think who, after years of service, saw an outsider advanced past them? What new man ever came into any office who understood the details of his work until he was trained by someone ahead of him or someone completely informed on all points? Then there is another consideration; new men would receive the appointments whether the commission had recommended them or not. It is not the duty of the ministers to make appointments; they may have that privilege through a party majority, but they must use it carefully and honestly when they exercise it. The civil service of Canada has just begun to be recognized as an important asset of the dominion, and the changes proposed in this bill would tend to destroy it. If those changes have to be made I ask the government to assume the responsibility. If they believe in the principles of the bill, let them show this by making the bill a government measure. Then those of us who are fearful that the civil service may be made less efficient will at least have the responsibility taken from our shoulders and we will not be parties to the destruction of that service.
What of merit all along the line; how are you to decide? I have a little experience in political affairs. I know positions vacant in my constituency are now being filled by Liberals. I do not objeet; that is the privilege of the party in power; the people gave
Civil Service Act

them a mandate permitting them to do so, but that is no reason why I should support a measure destroying the civil service of Canada.
I wonder what hon. members representing the city of Ottawa think about this measure. When I have seen the corridors of this building crowded and I have thought of the position of those members, I was at least sympathetic enough to thank providence that there was a civil service commission, if only for their sake.
I am prepared to oppose the bill. I have a feeling that the Liberal party will carry it out in detail. They have a large majority, and I hope they will not abuse it in any way by making changes in the act. I do not believe they will. For these reasons I oppose the principle of the bill.


James Samuel Taylor: Mr. Speaker, underlying the activities of any government should be high ideals, and those ideals should develop an excellent civil service. We have a Civil Service Act which has been in operation for many years but which under certain circumstances has been found to be faulty. The obvious procedure is to improve the act and the conduct of officials obeying it. We can point to countries with an excellent civil service operating under a Civil Service Act. On the other hand we cannot point to any country not operating under a Civil Service Act which has high ideals among its service.
In my view the throwing over of the Civil Service Act as we now have it would be a directly retrograde movement, and we cannot permit ourselves to go backward. There is no excuse for turning the civil service into a "swivel" service, and for that reason I am definitely opposed to the bill.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, the bill
introduced by the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Boulanger), like many other measures, has some provisions which are commendable and, judging from expressions by hon. members in different parts of the house, provisions which are commended generally. There are other provisions, however, which I think are quite the opposite. Personally I do not approve that portion of the bill which proposes to take the outside service from under the control of the civil service commission. I have been long enough in public life to know, after following discussions in parliament after parliament with respect to the civil service, how difficult it has been to regulate the service in a manner which will secure both efficiency and security. I believe what in

these respects has been accomplished under the Civil Service Act as regards both inside and outside services has been in the main in the right direction. There is no doubt, however, that as it stands the act is not perfect; obviously it needs amendment in some particulars. If it had been perfect many of the complaints made in this chamber about what has been done even within the last few years would not have been possible.
My hon. friend and colleague the Secretary of State (Mr. Rinfret) suggested an evening or two ago that it might be well without prejudice to have the bill referred to a committee for study. That is frequently done with respect to measures introduced in parliament. It has been understood by all parties that the purpose of such committee would be one primarily of study and report, and that no hon. member or party would be regarded as approving or disapproving the principle of the bill so long as the deliberations in committee were proceeded with on that understanding. However, in view of the difference of opinion which exists with respect to the wisdom of that course it may be as well to forego any idea of pursuing it further. I feel that it would be to the advantage of hon. members to have a chance to study the Civil Service Act in a committee of the house, and to consider possible amendments thereto. I make that statement for this, among other reasons, that in the present House of Commons we have a large number of new members, and I believe that if an opportunity were given for a full study of the act many features which to-day may not be understood would be understood more clearly. Furthermore, we are living in times when, in different directions, there is much in the way of change. Unquestionably there is room for improvement in the act and for bringing the provisions more into conformity with what many of us may feel is essential in these times. Having this in mind and having discussed the matter with my colleagues I would say that at the next session of parliament the government proposes to invite the house to constitute a special select committee to study the Civil Service Act, to investigate its provisions, and to give to the committee power to make recommendations to the house. That would fulfil a purpose which, I believe, is essential, and one which will certainly have to be carried out at some session of this parliament.
I do not think there has been a parliament in the last ten years which has not appointed a committee or a commission to study the Civil Service Act, and perhaps it would be just as well if this parliament did not prove to be

Supply-Itulian Affairs
the exception. I do not think it would be advisable to take that step at this session because already we have a very large number of committees. Almost all hon. members are already on some committees, and unless this session continues until the fall-which I hope it wrill not-perhaps we would do well not to add to the number.
While I would be prepared personally to give a measure of support to certain of the provisions of the bill, I would certainly strongly oppose anything in the direction of getting away from the merit system in connection with the great body of the public service in Canada. That view is shared by the government, and if, after what I have just said, we must decide the matter without having the bill withdrawn then, certainty, I for one shall oppose a second reading and hope that the government will be supported in its attitude.


Mr. DONNELLY:: I move the adjournment
of the debate.				
Motion division.	(Mr.	Donnelly)	negatived,	onMotion	(Mr.	Boulanger)	negatived,	ondivision.	SUPPLY	The hou	se in	committee	of supply,	Mr. Bradette in the chair.



DEPARTMENT uF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
Subsides for cold storage warehouses under the Cold Storage Act, $39,506.39.
Mr. HANSON:: How many subsidies have been granted for cold storage warehouses on the coast of British Columbia since 1931, and where are they?


James Garfield Gardiner: I read this afternoon a list of those that have been put on the list since 1931, about twenty-three in all, and as many as five payments have been made. Would my hon. friend like me to read the list again? It is on Hansard.


Olof Hanson: No; but what is the total amount paid ?


James Garfield Gardiner: The total amount paid is S39.000.


René-Antoine Pelletier: How much was paid to the Edmonton Cold Storage Company during the past two years?


James Garfield Gardiner: There was nothing paid in the last two years. Their contract was completed years ago.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF INDIAN AFFAIRS Indians-
To provide for expenses connected with the administration of Indian Affairs, including salaries, supplies, relief, medical attendance, hospitalization, dwellings, agricultural activities, surveys, roads, bridges, irrigation, dyking, education, et cetera, and a grant of $100,000 approved by parliament in the session of 1926-27, $4,241,100.
Ernest Edward Perley: I only rise to ask if the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs have been before the committee already?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; this item was under discussion, but the committee reported progress before the item was passed. On that occasion the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) asked for information respecting Indian doctors in Saskatchewan. There is a total of eighteen attendants employed for Indians in that province, all but two of whom are engaged for part-time attendance. One of the two full-time medical officers is at Fort Qu'Appelle, having charge of Qu'Appelle and the File Hills Indian agencies, and the other full-time officer is at Battleford in charge of the Battleford Indian agency. The Indians of Saskatchewan have also an oportunity of sharing in the benefits and the service of the departmental eye specialist for the diagnosis of trachoma, and the specialist also advises the local medical officers as to how the disease should be treated.


Ernest Edward Perley: On what terms are the part-time medical officers employed?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Some of the part-time
doctors are on what is known as the call system, while others are part-time officers appointed by the civil service commission.


Eugène Fiset: Would the minister be kind enough to inform me if instructions have been given lately by the department to the Indian agent at Cacouna to stop payment of the small monthly allowance of S6.10 to the Indians in the district from Riviere du Loup onwards. I have a few Indians in Rimouski, and I have been informed that this small monthly payment has been stopped for a month or so. I would like to know whether instructions have been given from headquarters at Ottawa to that effect.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Was that for relief allowances.


Eugène Fiset: It was for relief allowance. I have one Indian in mind, a man named Bois, of Mont Job. I wrote the department, but did not get an answer. The
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agent of the Indian department, Mr. Lebel, at Cacouna, informed the man that by instruction of the department at Ottawa the allowance he had been receiving of S6 a month had been stopped. I have had other inquiries from other Indians in the county of Rimouski, all of whom report the same thing, that the monthly payment had been stopped on instructions from the Superintendent General of Indian Affairs at Ottawa to his agent, Mr. Lebel, of Cacouna, county of Temiscouata, Quebec.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry that I have not the information before me, nor has my deputy, but I assure my hon. friend that the matter will be looked into immediately.


Eugène Fiset: If the information is sent to me I shall be satisfied.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: If any hardship has been done it will be corrected.


Ernest Edward Perley: Can the minister give any information with respect to the nurses employed at the different agencies? Have the full-time medical officers nurses assisting them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The doctor in charge of Qu'Appelle and the File Hills agencies has the assistance of a public health nurse. I cannot say at the moment just what number of nurses are employed among the Indians in Saskatchewan.


Ernest Edward Perley: Is there a fulltime nurse on the Crooked Lake reserve?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed by my deputy that the nurse who was on that reserve has been removed to Norway House. Her place will be taken by another nurse because it is the intention to have a full-time nurse there.


James Samuel Taylor: What sort of
supervision is exercised over the part-time doctors? I have a complaint from the Cowichan reserve that the doctors pay only perfunctory attention to their patients. For instance, a doctor was telephoned on Thursday and arrived on Saturday at eleven p.m. the case was an urgent one and the patient, a child, is now in hospital. That seems to be rather a case of neglect than anything else.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know the circumstances. It is impossible to keep in touch with all these cases, but I can tell the hon. gentleman that if at any time he has any complaint in respect of a matter of this kind I shall be grateful if he will bring it to my attention and I will see that it is remedied
[Sir Eugem* Fiset.J
if possibLe. The doctor who is on part-time is supposed to discharge his duties properly, and if he is failing to do so we shall probably discharge him and get somebody else.


James Samuel Taylor: Thank you
That is one of a large number of complaints which I submitted to the minister's department some weeks ago.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I must say that at the
moment I cannot fully answer the question, but it will be looked into.


James J. Donnelly: When a doctor is
called to see a patient does he follow up the case as he would with his other patients, or is he brought in again only when he is called? The doctor may be called to see a patient suffering from pneumonia and give treatment, going away after telling the attendants what is wrong, and he may not return until called again five or six days afterwards when perhaps the patient is about to pass out. He has never had an opportunity to do anything with the patient. Are the doctors required to go back from time to time after the first visit just as they would with other patients?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes; I am informed that
the doctor is supposed to look after these patients the same as he would any other patient of his own. If he visits a patient and finds him suffering from pneumonia and thinks it necessary to pay another visit the following day or even the same day it is his duty to do so. That is what he is paid for.


Mr. BLACKMORE:: What is the reason
for this considerable decrease of 8252,000 in the allotment for Indians this year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The only answer is, in
the name of economy. We have endeavoured to keep our estimates as low as we reasonably can. I should like to have seen this vote larger, but we are trying to get along as economically as possible.


John Horne Blackmore: In what respects is
economy being effected? The times are trying for the Indians because they cannot get additional work. On the reservation in my constituency they are quite hard up.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: We have effected a small
economy in administration. We have made a reduction with regard to new equipment for residential schools, having decided to get along with the old equipment, and that accounts for $48,200. We have also cut down the amount for new residential schools, which accounts for over $75,000. There is also a

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reduction in the amount for new day school buildings. Some of the old day schools should be replaced by newer schools, but we are going to try to get along with the old ones. Then there is an item of repairs to residential schools, which amounts to $6,000.


René-Antoine Pelletier: Has there been any
reduction in salaries?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No.


Ernest Edward Perley: What is the policy of the department in the matter of hospitalization? Have the doctors who are on call the power to direct in any case that a patient shall go to a particular hospital? There are nine reserves in the constituency of Qu'Appelle and we have two or three pretty good municipal hospitals, one at Indian Head and a small one at Whitewood. Very often Indians are taken past these municipal hospitals into Regina, either to the general hospital or the Grey Nuns' hospital. The people who keep up the municipal hospitals think the Indians should not be taken past their door to Regina, and I make a [DOT] special plea for these local hospitals. The one at Indian Head is a particularly good hospital which would serve well. Does the doctor direct to which hospital the patient is to be taken or does the department do so?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The practice has been to
take the Indian to the hospital to which he prefers to go. The hospital at Indian Head would probably not be equipped for major operations. I do not know, but I am informed that in order to get the best medical attention where serious operations are necessary patients are taken to those points at which the best medical skill is available.


Ernest Edward Perley: The hospital
at Indian Head is equipped with X-ray machines and it is adequately equipped for major operations. I know in many instances the doctors direct that these patients be taken past Indian Head to Regina, and this is a grievance on the part of the municipality. What progress are the specialists in the department making in stamping out trachoma? They have been doing a good deal of work on the Crooked Lake reserve and I should like to know how they are getting along.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand that a good deal of progress is being made in eradicating trachoma. There is no doubt that a good deal more progress could be made if we had the money to spend on medical care and education of these Indians in proper sanitary measures,
but I think reasonable progress is being made with the money that we have at our disposal. The situation is improving; it is not as bad as it was.


Ernest Edward Perley: I see in this vote provision is made for dwellings. The dwelling at the Indian agency in the Crooked Lake reserve was burned down, I think two or three years ago. They have never rebuilt there. At the present time the agent is living in, I think, the town of Broadview, which is ten or twelve miles or more from the agency. Is the department considering rebuilding? It is quite an inconvenience for the agent to be such a distance from the reserve, especially in the winter time, as it is then impossible for him to drive. Is any provision being made for rebuilding?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am afraid that no provision is being made this year for the residence of which my hon. friend speaks. It may be possible next year to consider it.


James Samuel Taylor: How much is being paid per month for relief to the Indians?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I do not know that I can give the information by months to my hon. friend, but my officials say that the total bill for relief this year will probably be around $900,000.


James Samuel Taylor: I mean individually. How much do they get per capita?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I should think that varies in various places.


James Samuel Taylor: It is unfortunate that in the reserve in my riding only $4 per month is paid to the head of a family, and it appears quite immaterial whether the head of a family has eight or nine or only two in his family to look after. Four dollars is very little, even for an Indian.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: It would act as a discouragement to large families, would it not?


James Samuel Taylor: It would seem to, but I am afraid it won't.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: There is no fixed scale. I understand that the practice is to try to meet the needs as far as reasonably can be done.


Mr. PATTERSON:: I should like to ask a question regarding the duties of the medical officers at the different Indian reserves. Take, for instance, the case where the medical officer is not a qualified surgeon and an emergency surgical operation is necessary on an Indian
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Indian Affairs

patient. Is it the duty of the medical officer to engage a qualified surgeon and to pay that surgeon out of his own pocket, or will the department pay the surgeon?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In such cases as the hon. member mentions the practice has been for the department to pay the surgeon's fees. I might say that the principle underlying the whole medical administration is that the Indians shall be well looked after in a medical way. If there is a doctor who is not a surgeon, and he discovers an Indian who should have his appendix out, his business is to get that Indian somewhere where he can have his appendix taken out safely. In such a case the department looks after the charge. But I believe it is the practice to have those charges taxed where in the judgment of the medical officers of the department at Ottawa they should be taxed. At any rate the aim is to give the proper attention to the Indians.


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: I should like to call the attention of the minister to the head office for Indian Affairs in British Columbia. It is in a very old building. All the records of the Indian department for British Columbia are kept in that building. If there should be a fire-and there have been one or two incipient fires-the result may be imagined in view of the fact that the building is heated by coal and wood stoves and is a wooden structure without even a fireproof vault for keeping the records. I want to leave that thought with the minister in the hope that he may be able to do something towards getting into the new building there which is under contemplation. I wish further to ask with regard to amounts voted for the education of Indian children; I believe that is divided between various religious denominations in British Columbia. Could the minister name the different religious bodies and the amount which was voted to each one last year, if your records are complete for one fiscal year?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: In reply to the first observation made by the hon. member, I am afraid that his criticism is only too true. The administration building in British Columbia is not what it should be, but I hope to have an opportunity of looking over it some time during the summer, and we shall certainly keep that in mind. Again may I say that there are many things we should like to do in the Indian administration, but we are proceeding with as much regard to economy as we can.
With regard to the other question, I may be able to give my hon. friend some informa-

tion, although not so complete, perhaps, as he desires. I find that at the Ahousaht school, under the United Church, the allowance for
1936-37 is estimated at SI 1,700; at Albemi, under the United Church, it is $20,700; at Alert Bay, where the Anglican church has a school, the total amount is $36,000; and at Cariboo, where the Roman Catholics have charge of the school, the amount is $22,950. In the first three instances that represents a per capita allowance of $180; in the last at Cariboo, the per capita is $170.


Harry James Barber: Will the minister kindly give the figures for the Coqualeetza and St. Mary's schools?


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: Possibly the minister would send me a list of them?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I find that the per capita allowance in the various schools runs from $170 to $180. I must here pay a tribute to all these denominations in respect of the educational work they are carrying on among the Indians. They are certainly performing a splendid service, and I venture to say that very often they carry on under considerable difficulties. I hope to cooperate with them as fully as possible because, after all, as far as my observation has gone, I think sound educational methods among these Indians are very helpful.


D'Arcy Britton Plunkett: The reason I have asked this question is because I have had many inquiries in this connection, and to some extent the suggestion has been that one school is conducted better than another. I have visited one or two and found them very satisfactory; I have no reason to believe that suggestion is true, so I have asked the minister to give me the fullest information possible so that I may intelligently speak to those who inquire of me. If there is any further information the minister could give me I would appreciate it.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Perhaps my hon. friend
would like the total estimated amount for each of these schools in addition to those I have already given. They are as follows:
Christie	 $19,800
Coqualeetza	 38.250
Kamloops	 48,450
Kitamaat	 5,250
Kootenay	 15,300
Kuper Island	 17,000
Lejac	 27,200
Port Simpson	, ,. ..	6,125
St. George's	 32,400
Ste. Mary's Mission	 25,500
Sechelt	   13,600
Squamish	 9,350

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Jean-François Pouliot: Would the minister be
good enough to tell the committee if any super-genius of the Department of National Defence has been seconded to the Department of Indian Affairs?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am very happy to be
in a position to set the mind of my hon. friend completely at rest. So far as I know no one has been seconded from the Department of National Defence to the Department of Indian Affairs.


Jean-François Pouliot: I take pleasure in congratulating the minister, and I think that example should be followed in every department.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I have very great pleasure in accepting the congratulations of the hon. member.


Mrs. BLACK:: Would the minister give
the committee the amount estimated for the Indians in the Yukon, if he has it?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The total amount for
residential schools is $13,983 and for day schools, $4,100.


Donald Elmer Black: I am very glad to have
this opportunity of paying a tribute to both Anglican and Catholic authorities in that constituency.


John Power Howden: I take it that this is a
general discussion of Indian Affairs, and I should like to remind the committee that we have some Indians in Manitoba. Whether it is because, when I was a young medical man, a good many years ago, I made a trip in connection with an Indian treaty, I do not know, but I receive periodical protests from the Indians around lake Winnipeg, on the Norway House reserve. They are written by the Indians themselves; they are rather hard to decipher, but occasionally I do manage to gather a fact or two of what they are driving at. I have before me two or three items of protest which I should like to pass on to the minister. They claim that under the original treaty they were guaranteed fishing rights for ten miles from the shore, and their complaint is that now they are forced to pay for a . fishing licence, not. for fishing ten miles from the shore but for fishing off the shore of lake Winnipeg. They claim that they are forced to buy a fishing licence, just as the fishing companies are. They also claim that the companies fishing in lake Winnipeg use small mesh nets and take out small fish which they do not even bother to throw back into the water but throw on to the sandy
shore of the lake or on to the ice in the winter time. If there is any truth in or substance to that accusation at all I think it is well worth investigating.
Another complaint I have recently received from them is that under treaty No. 5 it was understood that the chiefs were to get $25 and the councillors $15 yearly during their terms of office, but they have been receiving only $20 for the chiefs and $10 for the councillors. The third point is to the effect that some of the children from the Norway House reserve are sent to the school at Brandon, and when the holidays come, instead of their being given a trip home gratis to see their parents, they are charged half the railway fare, which is taken out of their funds on treaty day. I just want to leave these protests with the department and the minister so that they may be investigated.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be glad to look into the matters my hon. friend has brought to my attention. My information is that the chiefs get the full amount they are entitled to get under the treaty arrangements. As far as the fishing is concerned, at the moment I am not in a position to give the information, though I should imagine that probably the Indians would be permitted to fish for their own requirements without a licence, but not for commercial purposes. In the other matter, relating to the children attending the Brandon school, at the moment I am not in a position to give my hon. friend an answer, but these matters will be looked into.


Grote Stirling: A good many years ago, I think twenty years ago, a draft agreement was arrived at between the dominion government and the government of British Columbia for the purpose of exchanging certain small pieces of land; I think it was known as the cut-off arrangement. I should like to know whether any progress at all is being made towards the completion of that arrangement. A little piece of severance here was to be exchanged for a little bit of cut-off there. One case was brought to my attention; an individual who was a rather large fruit grower near Penticton desired to buy a piece of land on the fringe of the Indian reserve bordering that municipality. It was well suited to fruit, but when he took the matter up at Victoria he was told that this was one of the pieces included under that agreement, and that there were certain reasons why the draft agreement had not been completed. Apparently no progress has been made for some time. I wonder whether the minister could tell us just what
Supply-Indian Affairs

stands in the way of a settlement of that matter, because I can well imagine that there are other places in the province where something could be done with these pieces of land if they could be released.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: What my hon. friend has
just stated is entirely news to me. I was not aware that there was such an agreement between the province and the federal authorities.


Grote Stirling: It is only in draft
form.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am informed that the negotiations are still going on; that it has been the subject of negotiations for a long time. If I can do anything to speed it up I shall be glad to do so. I do not know of any reason for delay unless it is the natural delay that takes place in negotiations between governments.


Alan Webster Neill: I entirely endorse the
remarks of the hon. member for Yale (Mr. Stirling). This matter has been going on since about 1919, I think; it is a standing disgrace to all parties connected with it. At that time it was ascertained that Indian reserves were in some cases too large for the needs of the Indians, and on the other hand it was contended that in some cases they needed fishing stations and the like. A commission was got together; I think a gentleman called McKenna, well known in the Indian department, w'as on it on behalf of the government, and they W'ent around British Columbia and agreed to lop off certain areas, sometimes as much as one hundred or one hundred and fifty acres from certain reserves where the land was patently not needed, and to set up other small reserves generally for fishing stations and such things. In one or two cases these had been overlooked when the reserves were first made. This was agreed to. The next procedure was to have the reserves surveyed, and this took a long time. Finally they got them all surveyed; then there w'ere representations made backward and forward for a long time, and then for' the last five or six years there has just been a deadlock. If you ask either party they will put the blame on the other. I have brought the matter up in the house and I have got friends to bring it up in the British Columbia legislature, and the answer is that they have not yet agreed on the conveyance between the two governments. Well, if it is not done by now I do not know when they ever will do it. Speaking from memory, I would say that the thing was concluded at least three years ago; the only 
stage then was to get British Columbia to issue the conveyances, I think. Why that has not been done I do not know and apparently the Indian department here do not. To be frank, I think the greater part of the blame rests with the British Columbia government for slackness in not going on with their bargain. There is no suggestion that there is any hitch; the thing is agreed on, but apparently they cannot get the British Columbia government to issue the necessary conveyances. As the hon. member for Yale says, the need for the adjustment of the matter is very urgent.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I shall be glad to look
into this. I am informed that a letter was received from Mr. Cathcart, one of the officers of the British Columbia government, to the effect that the conveyance would be issued shortly.


Alan Webster Neill: I have been told that for
the last two or three years.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Well, this is the first I
have heard about it but I shall follow it up.


Grote Stirling: I understand that in
certain cases the Department of Indian Affairs makes grants to certain fairs to assist the Indians in putting on exhibits to show what they are capable of producing and of doing in the way of handiwork. What sum of money is given in that way? Is this carried out in all the provinces, or under what conditions is it carried out?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The amount appropriated for this in the last fiscal year was $6,000 and the same amount this year. In addition to that I am informed that there is $1,500 taken from the British Columbia vote, a special vote for the Kamloops fair.


Grote Stirling: The sum the minister mentioned applies to British Columbia only?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: The $6,000 applies to the whole country, but there is a special grant to the Kamloops fair, taken out of the special vote for British Columbia.


Ernest Edward Perley: In the act as it is at present there is a provision that under certain circumstances fines imposed on Indians, chiefly I believe in connection with having liquor in their possession, are divided and half goes to the informer. I should like to know how many cases of that kind occurred last year and the previous year or two, and how much was the total received by informers.

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Thomas Alexander Crerar: The information can be compiled, but we do not have it at band.


Ernest Edward Perley: In connection with the bill discussed this afternoon, those clauses were passed although there was some criticism, but it occurred to me in looking over the estimates to-night that I would like to know the extent to which that practice has prevailed; that is, were there many cases in which the informer was given half the fine; have there been many in the last few years, and what was the amount informers received in consequence of those sections of the act?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am sorry that I cannot give the information to-night. I understand that in the last few years, instead of paying fines, they have been taking the option of the gaol sentence, so probably the fines collected are lower than otherwise would be the case. I shall endeavour to get the information.


Ernest Edward Perley: I think it would be well, when the bill comes up again, that we should have that information, although those clauses were passed in committee. It makes a lot of difference whether this is a frequent occurrence or whether there are only a few cases that do not amount to much.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Does the informer take half the gaol sentence?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand not.


Ernest Edward Perley: I notice in this estimate, which is just one item for all these various activities of the Indian department, that the expenses include, among other things, surveys, roads, bridges, irrigation, dyking. As I understand it. many of these bands of Indians have, to their credit with the dominion, considerable sums of money on which they draw interest. I had an idea that many works such as those mentioned were done out of the funds of the Indians themselves; that is, if a bridge is required in a reservation I thought it might be paid for out of the revenues of the band. Is that so? Also, I should like to know whether this estimate of $4,000,000 odd represents the amount paid out of the consolidated fund for the benefit of the Indians. In other words is the government recouped out of Indian funds for any of these expenditures on works?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: No; in the natural order of events the amount voted here will be expended. None of it comes back in the way the right hon. gentleman suggests. So far as roads and bridges are concerned may I say
that in some cases these are constructed out of the proceeds from band funds. The total amount to the credit of band funds in Canada to-day is over $13,800,000. Of course these moneys earn interest, and in some cases amounts are taken out of the increment on the funds for building bridges or for other works. I may say that any vote in the estimates for these works is for what is required over and above what may be derived from band funds.


Ernest Edward Perley: On what principle is it decided whether a bridge shall be built by the Dominion of Canada out of the consolidated revenue fund or built and paid for out of band funds?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That would depend on several factors, the most important one being the amount of the band fund. There may be instances where those funds are very small, in which event they would have to be supplemented.


Ernest Edward Perley: If the band has enough money to pay for building bridges, the work is done in that way?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: So far as we can do it, yes.


Ernest Edward Perley: What is the meaning of the statement in the item indicating that a grant of $100,000 was approved by parliament in the session of 1926-27?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: That is a special vote to British Columbia.


Ernest Edward Perley: Is it an annual vote?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.	*


Ernest Edward Perley: And has been voted since 1926-27?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. The explanation is that during the session of 1926-27 a special committee of the Senate and the House of Commons dealt with matters pertaining to Indians, and more particularly the policy adopted in the early days of paying annuities to individual Indians. Upon consideration of the changed conditions throughout the country the committee found that the need and usefulness of such per capita payments to Indians of British Columbia would be negligible, and recommended that in lieu of payments to them the sum of $100,000 should be expended annually on technical education, the provision of hospitals and medical attendance, the promotion of agriculture, stock raising, and fruit culture, and the development of irrigation projects. The
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committee stated that the actual expenditure of this money for the said purposes would seem to be more favourable to the Indians in their present condition than the payment of any per capita amount. The recommendation of the committee was approved by parliament in the 15J26-27 session, and consequently since then this vote has appeared in the form in which it is now presented to the committee.


Ernest Edward Perley: Did the minister say that it applied only to British Columbia?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes.


Mr. McKENZIE (Lambton):: Are medical men appointed to work on these reserves paid on a yearly basis, regardless of what they do, or are they paid for their actual work?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Both methods are followed.
In some instances arrangements are made with a doctor who may be given three or four hundred dollars a year. In the event of the number of Indians requiring medical attention being small, other arrangements may be made. The experience of the department indicates fairly well what may be a fair basis of remuneration. If an arrangement is made with a doctor it stands until it is changed. In other cases what is known as the call system is used, in which event the doctor is paid for the actual work he does.


Mr. LOCKHART:: A week or so ago, when the estimates were under discussion the question of education was raised. To-night the minister again referred to technical education of Indian children. May I ask if that type of education has been carried out successfully? In all the fruit areas and in a good many of the agricultural areas children are permitted to leave the reservations by the hundreds. It seems to me foolish to spend large amounts of money on technical education when the children are permitted to leave the reservation from possibly the middle of April or the first of May until the early part of the fall. I was wondering whether some enforcement could be brought to bear upon the children in Indian reserves so that there could be enforced technical education, which is so necessary to them.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I assume the hon. member is referring to the manual training carried on in many of the schools. An effort is made to train these Indian children in various branches of manual training, and so far as I am aware that training is carried on during the ordinary school term, until the pupil leaves the school.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Does the minister know that the children are leaving the reserve by hundreds, and missing all these school days?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I am not aware of the
condition to which the hon. member refers. Indians move from their reserves at times, and possibly he has reference to that fact. But when the Indian children leave schools they usually go back with their parents to spend the vacation term, following which they return to school until their period of tuition is completed.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Has the minister a record of the last census of Indians in the different reserves?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Yes. The bureau of statistics would supply the hon. member with a volume giving the census of Indians in Canada.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: By reserves?


Thomas Alexander Crerar: I understand it does, yes.


Norman James Macdonald Lockhart: Apparently the minister has not yet grasped my point. I know that in my own particular district, and in many other fruit, vegetable and agricultural districts the Indians come by hundreds. I know for a fact that they leave their reserves in the latter part of April or possibly earlier, and come with their parents to settle as permanent residents in certain areas. They do not return to school, in most cases, until the frost comes. It does not seem proper to spend any amount of money on these children unless something is done to enforce their attendance at school.


Thomas Alexander Crerar: Personally I have no
knowledge of the complaint my hon. friend raises, but I can assure him that I shall endeavour to get information upon it. Youngsters are supposed to be at school and we shall have to try to keep them at school.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Public Works-chargeable to capital-
To provide for the investigation of water levels in the St. Lawrence river, $40,000.
Mr. MacNICOL:: Mr. Chairman, I am
sorry to have to take up the time of the committee at some length as I propose to do, but this item pertains to a subject of which I have made an exhaustive study covering a number of years, and I propose to deal with it from the point of view of the causes of the lowering of the water levels of the great lakes system and the St. Lawrence river.
At the outset I want to express my appreciation of the fact that we have in charge of this department a man with the back-

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ground of training and experience of an engineer and with the knowledge of the construction industry that the minister possesses; and from the further fact that he himself lives on the great lakes system I feel confident that in the back of his head he has the intention of going a much further distance in his inquiry into the water levels of the great lakes system than this vote of $40,000 would indicate. Personally I hope that this is just the start of attacking the great problem which is involved in this vote, which is to provide for an investigation into progressive lowering of the water levels of the St. Lawrence river.
The newspapers of the great cities along the great lakes system and the St. Lawrence river have for the last several years contained very instructive and illuminating articles on the great lakes-St. Lawrence water levels, such as the one that appeared recently, headed by a caption reading like this: Average water level in Montreal harbour 6-49 feet lower for the month of December last than the lowest December average in any of the previous seventy-five years. Another article might be headed: Waterborne traffic on great lakes menaced by low water levels. Another one: Cargoes of ships in the St. Lawrence river canal reduced one-half as a result of low water levels. Another one: Waterborne traffic on harbours cut as the result of low water levels. All such articles have been presenting to the people of Canada what to-day is a national menace, and I am glad that the minister in charge of this portfolio is going to grapple with this serious problem. It presents a national menace to the economic welfare of all the cities on the great lakes system and the St. Lawrence river. I take it from this item in the estimates that the government is familiar with the situation and proposes now to try to remedy it.
That the Ontario government is also familiar with the situation was clearly evidenced by a statement made by the chairman of the Ontario Hydro-Electric Power Commission in an address he made in Toronto on October 28 last. He is quoted as saying that the Ontario government proposed to ask this government to assist it in constructing works across the Albany and Ogoki rivers in northern Ontario to divert four thousand cubic feet of water per second over the height of land-the topography of the land permits of that quite easily-and down through Mojikit lake, Nipigon lake, Nipigon river into lake Superior. For what purpose? The first purpose enunciated was for the development of power. The second
purpose was just that which the minister has in his mind, to raise the great lakes-St. Lawrence water levels.
It is not my intention either to oppose or support or even comment on the proposals of the chairman of the Ontario Hydro-Electric Power Commission other than to say that his proposal is not new. It was first submitted to the Lake Levels Commission of the city of Chicago in 1925 or 1926. I am going to try to show that the purpose of the proposed diversion of the Ogoki river was not primarily to raise the levels of the Great lakes and the St. Lawrence river, but rather to provide water for the city of Chicago through its sanitary and ship canal.
On page IX of the Regulation of the great Lakes, a volume by John R. Freeman, he says:
The possible diversion of a large quantity of water into the great lakes from streams now entering Hudson bay w'as brought to the attention of the committee on lake levels as a remedy for low lake levels and as a means of compensation for the diversion of water from the lakes through the Chicago sanitary canal. This W'ater now flowing north was to be turned south into the great lakes by way of lake Nipigon.
There is evidence that when this proposed diversion scheme first came up, it was not for the purpose of raising the levels of the great lakes and the St. Lawrence river, but for the purpose of making up for the loss of water at the city of Chicago through its sanitary and ship canals. As I have said, I have made an exhaustive investigation of this subject covering several years and extending over the great lakes system, all of its connecting rivers, the Chicago sanitary district and all its works, the Chicago-Mississippi canal, its works, and everything pertaining thereto, and I am going to try to present to the committee information to support the minister in any proposal he brings forward to remedy this national menace that is presented in the constant and progressive lowering of the water levels of the great lakes system and the St. Lawrence river.
The history of all the cities on the great lakes and the St. Lawrence is clear evidence of the great economic advantage afforded by adequate water levels in that great transportation system. Toronto, for instance, in 1926 had a more or less inadequate harbour, but all governments gave it proper dockage, deepened the inlets and outlets, and built the Welland canal, with the result that since 1926, when
50,000	tons of shipping entered that harbour, the quantity has risen to from 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 tons in the last year. But the city of Montreal, which as we all know is one' of the

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six major ports of the world, is threatened with calamity. I believe it was the Montreal Star which on January 8 carried an article, based on facts obtained from the Department of Marine, indicating that in December last the water level average in the harbour of Montreal was 5-49 feet less than in any December in the previous seventy-five years. That fact is so colossal that the people of Canada have not realized it, and I again congratulate the minister upon having begun to grapple with the great question.
I shall deal with this subject from the standpoint of three separate years, taking the years 1860, 1900 and 1935. I choose 1860 because it was in that year that the government of the United States and, I presume, the government of Canada first began to keep an adequate daily record of water levels on the great lakes and on the St. Lawrence. I take 1900 because it was in that year that the present Chicago sanitary and ship canal reversed the natural flow of the Chicago and Calumet rivers and in addition thereto diverted by gravity from lake Michigan varying quantities of water up to 10,000 cubic feet per second. I believe the largest diversion was 17,500 cubic feet per second, and it varied from that down to
5,000	and less. Prior to the first of January of this year and for the five years previous the total diversion was S.200 cubic feet per second in accordance with a decree of the United States Supreme Court issued in 1930.
Few people can comprehend the vast quantity of water represented by a diversion of 8,200 cubic feet per second. I read some days ago an article discussing the rainfall in the three western provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta during the entire wheat-growing season. I cannot vouch for the figures, but it was a reputable engineer who gave them and his statement was that 15,000,000,000 tons of rain water falls on these three provinces throughout the entire wheatgrowing season. Compare that with the extraction from lake Michigan, through the Chicago drainage and ship canal, which has risen to 10,000,000,000 tons per year, or two-thirds of the rainfall in the three western provinces I have mentioned. On the first of January, 1936, the diversion at Chicago was reduced, in accordance with the United States Supreme Court decree of 1930, and at the moment they are diverting 5,000 cubic feet per second for dilution and 1,700 cubic feet per second for domestic water supply, or 6,700 cubic feet per second, a colossal
[[DOT]Mr. MacNicol.]
volume of water extracted from the great lakes system, to the detriment of the water levels of the great lakes and the St. Lawrence river.


James Shaver Woodsworth: It is not suggested, is it, that the water that falls in the prairie provinces has anything to do with this?


John Ritchie MacNicol: No; I am comparing
what is taken out of lake Michigan with the rainfall in the prairies, so as to give an idea of the extent of the diversion.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am very much interested in the figures the hon. gentleman is giving. Do I understand that they are with respect to diversion from lake Michigan and that, in addition to that, there is the diversion of water from the two rivers mentioned?


John Ritchie MacNicol: I am glad the hon. gentleman has asked that question. I said or should have said that the diversion included the water from the Chicago and Calumet rivers, but that is figured into the precipitation of the Chicago sanitary district. The total diversion, prior to this year and for the five years previous, including the Chicago and Calumet rivers of the St. Lawrence watershed was 8,200 cubic feet per second, and at present it is 6,700. Prior to that it rose 10,000 per second more or leas. I will try now to give an idea of the fluctuation of water levels on the great lakes during the same three years. But I should observe that the Chicago drainage canal is not the only cause of the lowering of water levels on the great lakes. The others I shall refer to shortly. I have here evidence of engineers in Chicago, Milwaukee, Washington, Detroit, Cleveland and other great centres, and the consensus of opinion is that the Chicago drainage canal itself has been responsible for the direct lowering of levels on the great lakes by six inches. Some say more, but the general opinion is six inches.
I will now give the October average of these lakes for all the Octobers of the forty years prior to 1900, from 1860 to 1900. The average above sea level for lake Michigan and lake Huron, which are on the same level, was 581-52 feet; for lake Erie, 572-87, and for lake Ontario, 246-13. That was the October average for the forty years I have mentioned. I select October because the water level is more stationary at that time, after the summer. I will give the water level for each of the other lakes, taking the average for October in 1860. I will give each lake by itself. On Michigan and Huron for October, 1860, the

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average was 582-62 feet. In 1900 the average level for October was 580-66, for October, 1935, it was 578-21, or 3-31 feet below the average level prior to 1900. If anyone wants to figure out what a colossal loss of water that is, take the area of lakes Michigan and Huron at 45,000 square miles, and I believe it will be found that one foot rise or fall will mean 39 billion tons of water. The average October figures for lake Erie are: in 1860, 573-12; in 1900, 571-75; in 1935, 570-11, or 2-76 below the average October level prior to 1900. For lake Ontario: for 1860, 246-67; for 1900, 244-72, and for 1935, 243-19, or 2-97 below the pre-1900 average.
The whole St. Lawrence system, including both the river and the great lakes, which lakes of course are the maintaining source of the levels of the lower St. Lawrence, has lost such a colossal volume of water that the figures I have just given will stagger anyone who cares to look into them from an engineering standpoint.
One may ask: How did the levels prior to 1900 rise and fall? Well, they fluctuated up and down; they were never up much and never down much; but since 1900 these two great lakes, Michigan and Huron, have never again reached the pre-1900 average for October. The great lake Erie reached it in one October only, and lake Ontario, reached it in eleven Octobers, but as I said, there are several other causes for the lowering of the great lake levels. The first one is the rainfall, or precipitation. I would take that up with the second one, deforestation. As I said some time ago in this house, the whole of the great lakes watershed had been largely depleted of its forests. That depletion has caused in the whole great lakes system east of Sault Ste. Marie a lowering of the water levels of from three to eight inches.
The third cause is the control works. So far I have not referred particularly to lake Superior, because at Sault Ste. Marie there are control works which maintain the level of lake Superior to an average of 602 feet above sea level. But that control at lake Superior has cost, it is said, the whole of the lower lake levels and the St. Lawrence river a drop of 8 inches in water levels.
The fourth cause is the deepening of the lake outlet channels. Almost everyone, particularly my hon. friend from Sarnia, knows that in the river Detroit and in the river St. Clair the channels have been deepened and dredged, especially in the lower Detroit, to about 600 feet wide and to provide a draught of twenty-two feet, and that the more rapid flow of water caused by the deepening of
these lake outlet channels has resulted in the lowering by approximately five to six inches of the levels of lake Huron and lake Michigan, with no gain in the lower lakes and levels of the river St. Lawrence, because the water runs off.
The next cause is inversions, of which there is none worth mentioning, into the St. Lawrence system. In former years there were two or three little canal run-off inversions, but they are not worth mentioning. But the greatest diversion in the world's history that I have been able to ascertain is the one which is the sixth cause, the diversion at Chicago.
I want to deal with the Chicago diversion from several standpoints. First, there is the sanitary standpoint. Chicago had to do something to relieve the colossal loss through typhoid fever that afflicted that city in the nineties. They commenced about 1891, I believe, to construct their present works, but they had taken water out of lake Michigan as early as 1871, at first a small volume by pumping it over the height of land, and then in 1883 they pumped over the height of land approximately 1,000 cubic feet per second. Later, in 1900, they increased that by gravity to 10,000 cubic feet per second. The diversion did eliminate typhoid fever, or brought it down to the percentage in other cities. Then there is the power purpose. I do not believe that the generation of power on the Chicago sanitary canal extracts any more water from the great lakes-St. Lawrence system than what is taken out by the diversion itself for sanitary and ship canal purposes, but it is said that they develop at the present moment from
50.000	to 60,000 horse power and anticipate developing, I believe, up to as high as from
80.000	to 100,000 horse power.
The next is navigation purposes, and this is one that especially affects Canada, and particularly the great lakes and lower St. Lawrence navigation economic balance. Any one who has inspected the Chicago-Mississippi canal lately will be struck, as I have been in the last four or five years, when I have made surveys over it, with the locks, which, as far as I can understand, are the third largest in the world. There will be seven locks when the canal is completed according to the full plans of the engineers. Five of these locks are at present completed. The first five completed locks are 600 feet long and 110 feet wide, and the first one, at Lockport, Illinois, will raise or lower a boat forty-one feet. The capacity of a single boat could be about 8,500 tons, but I understand that they .are going to use the same system .of boats which are now
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operating on the Ohio river canals, namely, barges of 500 tons capacity, and their proposal is to run six of these barges, or 3,000 tons, at each locking. Let any one figure out just what that means, when it is considered that this year it is said that they locked through about 300,000 tons, and they expect, when the St. Lawrence seaway is completed and ocean steamships are sailing up to Chicago, to send down that canal maybe 10,000,000 of shipping a year. If any one will figure out what that will mean on the basis of 3,000 tons per locking, with the knowledge that Lockport lock requires about 2.750,000 cubic feet of water to put one locking through, it means the navigation part of that canal may always be a source of lowering the water levels and of keeping the water levels of the great lakes-St. Lawrence system lower than they otherwise would be.
Next, I want to consider the effect of the Chicago drainage canal on the great lakes system. It lowers the great lakes system to the extent of six inches. It has had and will have a colossal effect upon the capacity of our own canals and our own harbours. I have before me a book I got in Washington recently issued by the war department, with a letter sent to the war department by the chief of engineers. With reference to navigation it says this, at page 92:
The average loss caused by a reduction of one-tenth of a foot in the available draught amounts to $44.57 for one trip of a bulk freighter on the upper lakes, or $590,000 per year for the whole fleet. For the smaller vessels engaged' in trade through the Welland and St. Lawrence canals the average loss caused by a lowering of one-tenth of a foot is $41.40 for each trip and $70,000 per year for the whole fleet.,.. The total loss to the bulk freight trade caused by this lowering is estimated at $4,713,000 per year.... Of the loss now occurring $2,866,000 per year is due to the diversion of 8,800 cubic feet per second by the sanitary district of Chicago.
These are facts that should stagger the shipping interests of this country, the harbour commissioners of Montreal and all those associated in any way with the economic welfare of the great cities on the great lakes. My opinion is that this diversion will continue. They are constructing three colossal sewage works, which are now about fifty per cent in operation. I looked them over very carefully on two different occasions; I talked over the matter frankly with engineers; I went to Washington after discussing it with Chicago engineers, because I had made up my mind that it was doubtful if the works would do all that was expected of them. The engineers hoped for the best, but no engineer can predict just what will be the effect on the Illinois river of pouring into it 1,700 cubic

feet per second of effluent of Chicago sewerage. The decree of the United States Supreme Court, issued in 1930, means that on January 1, 1939, Chicago must reduce its intake from lake Michigan to 3,200 cubic feet per second, 1,500 feet for dilution plus 1,700 feet for domestic purposes. I thought I should like to find out what the proposal would be to take care of the situation if in 1939 the control works did not perform the work expected of them, and the engineer whom I met in Washington directed my attention to page 16 of the report of the Secretary of War, where I found these words:
... and that the chief of engineers be granted authority to direct such additional temporary diversions of lake water, not to be considered in the determination of the annual average, as may be necessary to flush pools and/or to maintain pool levels and as may not be inimical to lake navigation.
Any one who has gone down the Illinois river and the Chicago-Mississippi canal, who has a conception of enginering and who figures out just what a colossal amount of water will be required to maintain those pool levels, will know that the diversion of water at Chicago for that purpose will be a very large number of cubic feet per second.
I am not talking politically; this subject is far beyond the ken of narrow politics and is too big to be discussed from political angles. In my opinion we have a minister who, from his engineering background and his knowledge of the great lakes, as well as of his own city and his own lake, the level of which is controlled by works, should be competent to deal with this question. I am going to appeal to the minister to go before the government and ask for more money when the supplementary estimates are up for consideration. This item of $40,000 will be only sufficient to make a start. Let him ask for more money with which to prepare plans. Mr. Minister, in my humble opinion you have a golden opportunity to do something big for this country and at the same time add to the national wealth. The works that you can plan in your department are not of the type of dole works, that add little or nothing to the national wealth. You have a type of works to plan for that will add national wealth and that, in the long run, will not cost this country anything because of the improvement they will bring about in our transportation system.
Now, in a very humble way I should like to suggest to the minister that at the earliest moment he should ascertain, by surveys, the cost of erecting control works at- Sarnia to raise the levels of lakes Michigan and Huron; to ascertain the cost of control works at
132S

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Buffalo to raise the level of lake Erie, and so on. May I say, Mr. Chairman, it is a disquieting sight to go along lake Erie to-day and see how the shore shelves out so much further than has been the ease in former years. The great lakes are being depleted of their water, and the St. Lawrence river is losing its water supply. I would go so far as to suggest a plan of reforestation to recover as much as possible of the three to eight inches that the great lakes-St. Lawrence watershed has lost as a result of deforestation. I will go further and suggest that some scheme be planned to save some of the water that now causes such tremendous floods. I know a number of rivers that have storage basins; I have been over some of them from one end to the other. Some of these are the rivers that are now giving so much trouble; I have surveyed two or three of them and have seen natural reservoirs which, without the expenditure of too much money, could be utilized to store a large volume of the spring freshets which could be run off later in the dry season. To my mind the minister has before him a golden opportunity to save the levels of the great lakes and of the St. Lawrence system, and in my opinion it is possible to have the cooperation of the city of Chicago through the government of the United States. At page 9 of his book, published in 1926, Mr. Freeman says:
That some years ago the Chicago sanitary district had offered a large sum of money to be expended upon works in the outlet of lake Huron, and possibly also at outlets of lakes Erie and Ontario, for the purpose of compensating for and raising the levels of these lakes to an amount equal to the lowering caused by its diversion, without at that time having any very definite information as to what type of structures that would best serve this and other useful purposes, or their cost.
Of course the engineers cannot speak for Chicago, but that is what I was told, that, too, in Chicago, and there is the report of John R. Freeman stating that Chicago offered a large sum of money for the construction of these compensating works, which, I assume, would have to be constructed at Kingston or east of Kingston too, to be of service to the St. Lawrence system. All these outlet control works could be part and parcel of the proposed St. Lawrence seaway. The money expended on them would not be lost, and while the proposal to construct the St. Lawrence seaway has not been endorsed either by this parliament or by the congress of the United States, these preliminary works for raising the water levels certainly could be carried on in due course.
If I have not said anything to impress the minister it is because of my lack of capacity
to express myself. I am so much interested in this subject after a long survey of it and so much in earnest in desiring to assist in some way to save the great lakes transportation system and the St. Lawrence river system that perhaps I cannot just convey my thoughts and experiences and the facts and figures I have gathered in trying to ascertain information in connection with the continuous and progressive lowering of the great lakes and St. Lawrence water levels.
The lowering has been continuously progressive in spite of the fact that in 1929 or 1930 we had a cycle of heavy rains, but even in those years the two great lakes did not reach the October pre-1900 level Again I urge the minister to appeal to his friends in the cabinet to support him in whatever he as an engineer decides is the best way to set about saving the sources of the water levels of the St. Lawrence. I cannot separate the St. Lawrence from the great lakes, so that while this vote calls for surveys in connection with the St. Lawrence the minister should go further and ascertain the cause of the water level lowering in the great lakes, and then plan to construct the necessary works, in cooperation of course with the United States. They are, I would believe, ready to entertain proposals along that line. What would be the results to Canada, outside the saving of large amounts yearly to our shipping through increased tonnage per ship? I am satisfied that such works would give employment to 50,000 men in factories making the material to enter into the construction and carrying out the construction of the works themselves, and every dollar expended wmuld be a national investment and not a dole.


Ernest Edward Perley: I do not think
the Department of Marine has been before the committee this year before to-night. I am sure it was done inadvertently, but I think the government were in error in bringing in these estimates on Friday evening. Am I right in thinking that the marine department has not previously been before the committee?


Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Marine):: We were on railways, and we regarded them as one department, although technically I suppose they are two.


Ernest Edward Perley: I am afraid they are still two actually as well as technically. All I wish to say is that I would have objected to going on with a new department this evening, but I have been very much interested in what has been said, and I am not going to take any objection to continu-



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ing as we are, but on the understanding, if I can get it from the Prime Minister, that the Department of Marine will be brought in next time on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, which would comply with the rules and put this right.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. May I
say to my right hon. friend that he is quite right in his reference to the rule. Of course it is always possible for the committee to waive any rule by consent. As far as this one item is concerned, perhaps the committee will give its consent if I undertake to move the adjournment of the house after the item is passed, unless my right hon. friend expects that there will be further discussion on it. If that can be done I will also undertake to do what my right hon. friend suggests, have the house go into committee on Monday on the estimates of the marine department.


Ernest Edward Perley: Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Just one question, which I think will clear the matter up. The $40,000 this year is the same amount as was appropriated last year?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Where were the surveys made last year? Were they below Montreal?


Clarence Decatur Howe: Yes. This is the work
recommended by Sir Alexander Gibb to be carried out over a three year period. It relates to levels from Montreal to the sea. This is the third year. We hope to complete the surveys with this estimate. An interim report was received in 1935; another is being prepared which we hope will be ready about April or May of this year, and the final report they hope to have ready a year from now.
May I say to the hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) that I listened with great interest to his remarks; I think he is entirely right as to the importance of this work. People who have lived on the great lakes for many years, as I have, realize the tremendous importance of depth of water to the shipping on the lakes and the enormous loss in carrying power of ships that results from the lowering of the levels. I think we are following logically the purpose which he aims to reach by starting at the lower end. After all, we must start any control system from sea level and work back. We hope when this report is finished to start remedial works in the lower St. Lawrence, and gradually to

build up the permanent low water level in Montreal harbour to the point at which it should be normally, and then probably those works can be carried back to lake Ontario and later to lake Huron.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the house adjourned at 10.40 p.m.
Monday, March 23, 1936