1935-04-10

[Stage Direction]
Third report of the select standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government. -Mr. Geary.
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved:: That the estimates referred to in the third report of the standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled' by the government be referred to the committee of supply.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Questions

Mr. WILFRID GIROUARD (Drummond-Arthabaska) (Translation):: Mr. Speaker, in
the course of his remarks last night, the hon. member for Dorchester (Mr. Gagnon) read a letter from a man named Albert Rioux, as reported at page 2588 of Hansard. This man Rioux writes to the hon. member for Dorchester, among other things:
He-speaking about myself-gave $15 out of his pockets or out of the party funds in order to pay for the cost of printing this petition.
I must declare, Mr. Speaker, that it has always been a pleasure for me to help the agricultural societies of my riding, but it is both false and ridiculous to claim that such help came from the party funds which do not exist, so far as I am concerned.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Referring to the statement made by the
hon. Minister of Finance on March 21, 1933, Hansard,	page	3277, to	the effect	that	thedominion had guaranteed maturities of Newfoundland	in	the year	1932-33, under	the
authority of chap. 36, 22-23 Geo. V, did the United Kingdom make a similar arrangement with Newfoundland at that time and for the same amount?
2.	Referring to the statement of the right
hon. the Prime Minister on April 9, 1934, Hansard,	page	1986, to	the effect	that	theBritish authorities had said "that they would' guarantee or pay to the extent of one-half if we did the other," did it mean the payment by Canada of	$625,000	or one-half of that
amount?
3.	Did Canada pay anything in that connection, and, if so, why, when, how much and in virtue of what authority?
4.	Is there any arrangement with regard to the refunding by the United Kingdom of any amount paid by Canada for Newfoundland?
5.	Since February 7, 1933, did Canada loan any sum of money or give any guarantee to Newfoundland?
6.	If so, on what date and for what amount?


Mr. RHODES:: 1.	At the time that certain Canadian banks advanced $625,000 to the government of Newfoundland under the guarantee of repayment by the Canadian government, the government of the United Kingdom advanced a similar sum to the government of Newfoundland.
2.	Answered by question number 1.
3.	No.
4.	No.
5.	On March 22, 1933, the Canadian government undertook to guarantee the repayment to certain Canadian banks the sum of
$625,000 which they had advanced to the government of Newfoundland in accordance with the arrangement referred to in the answer to question number 1.
6.	Answered by question number 5.


BUTTER RETURNED TO CANADA
Mr. POULIOT:: Referring to the statement made by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture on October 19, 1932, Hansard, page 363, to the effect that 3,465 boxes of Canadian butter had been shipped back to Canada from the United' Kingdom, during the preceding three months,-
1.	Besides the shipment already referred to, from 1930 to date, was Canadian butter shipped back from the United Kingdom to Canada?
2.	If so, why and what quantity each year?
3.	Same question for cheese.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Information not available in this department.


REVENUE FROM TAXATION
Jean-François Pouliot: What did the revenue (a) from customs; (b) excise, and (e) income tax, amount to in the twelve months preceding (1) September 1, 1930;	(2) September 1, 1931;	(3) in the
calendar year 1930?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: (a)	(b)	(c)
1.	$176,380,895.50 $121,154,814.20 $71,658,738.67
2.	135,149,137.79	92,997,727.50	55.786.645.163.	161,173,103.65	105,612,968.11	71,532234.02


RADIO COMMISSION-ADDRESSOGRAPH MACHINE
Mr. McKENZIE (Assiniboia):: 1.	Was an addressograph machine installed recently for the radio commission?
2.	If so, from whom was it purchased?
3.	What was the price of same?
4.	Where was the machine manufactured?
5.	What disposition was made of the addressograph machine formerly used in the radio commission office?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	Answered by No. 1.
4.	Answered by No. 1.
5.	No addressograph machine has been used by the Canadian Radio Broadcasting Commission.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Has the Montreal harbour commission awarded a contract, since 1930, for the painting of the Jacques Cartier bridge?
2.	If so, were tenders called for?
Motions for Payers

3.	Who were the tenderers and what were the tender prices in each case?
4.	To whom was the contract awarded', on what date, and what amount was paid to the contractor?


PORT OF NEW WESTMINSTER-ADVANCES
Mir. REID:: 1.	What amounts of money have been advanced to the port of New Westminster up to the 31st of December, 1934 (a) by way of loans; (b) by way of grants?
2.	How are the loans secured?
3.	What rate of interest is charged by the government?
4.	What amount of interest is delinquent in
any way?
5.	What amount of interest has been paid to the government?
6.	What amount of principal has been returned ?
7.	What amount of sinking fund has been set up?
8.	What quantities of wheat, oats and corn have passed through the New Westminster elevator during the calendar years 1931 to 1934?


SALARIES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES
Mr. CHEYRIER:: 1.	What was the total amount paid by the government in salaries to its employees of all classes located in Ottawa for the fiscal years ended (a) March 31, 1939, and (b) March 31, 1935, respectively?
2.	What was the total number of government employees (a) as defined by the Civil Service Act, and (b) all other classes, located at Ottawa during the fiscal years ended (a) March 31, 1930, and (b) March 31, 1935, respectively ?


SALARIES OF $8,000 OR OVER
Mr. LAFLECHE:: 1.	How many members of the dominion public service receive an annual salary of $8,000 or over?
2.	What are their names and places of residence ?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. FAFARD:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams and other documents exchanged between the Minister of National Revenue and any individual, respecting the port of customs at Lake Frontiere, Montmagny county, Quebec, from 1931 to date.



DAMAGE BY YAMASKA RIVER

Mr. BOUCHER:: For a copy of all requests and petitions respecting all damages caused by the Yamaska river, in the spring of the year 1930 or 1931, to owners of properties bordering on said river, at Yamaska; also a copy of all reports and correspondence with reference thereto.
[Mr. Pouliot.l



GREAT LAKES LABOUR CONDITIONS

Mr. CHURCH:: For a copy of all letters, reports, memoranda, and other written material, filed with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries by the Grand Lodge of the Canadian Navigators' Federation, incorporated, regarding labour conditions on the great lakes, aids to navigation, inspection, wages, loading and other related matters; also a copy of material filed with the minister urging the placing of shipping on the great lakes under the regulation of the Board of Railway Commissioners.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask
a question of the Minister of National Defence. Has he any statement to make with reference to the walk-out of certain relief workers at some of the camps in British Columbia?


Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Minister of National Defence):: Mr. Speaker, the hon.
member was good enough to send me a few moments ago intimation that he proposed to ask such a question. The information in my department indicates that about 1,300 out of a total of 4,400 men in the camps west of the centre line of British Columbia have moved out. A considerable number of them have gradually found their way to Vancouver. I cannot say definitely how many have reached that point, because the information is to a certain degree affected by the fact that in a good many of the camps certain men moved out rather than become entangled with this movement. The house will realize of course that as soon as these men leave the camps which have been under the jurisdiction of the Department of National Defence they pass beyond the charge of the dominion government and are again in the charge of the provincial government. Indications are that both the city of Vancouver and the province of British Columbia consider they have the situation well in hand.



THE KING'S SILVER JUBILEE


[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. JOHN VALLANCE (South Battleford):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to bring to the attention of the Secretary of State (Mr. Cahan) a telegram I received from Lloydminster,

The King's Silver Jubilee
Saskatchewan, with regard to the celebration in connection with the silver jubilee of the coronation of His Majesty the King. The telegram is as follows:
Citizens committee planning celebration Their Majesties Jubilee would like 500 medals to give school children. Please wire me if Canadian mint is making these. If so quote size and prices for this number in bronze or silver.
I think we should have some information about this matter.


Hon. C. H. CAHAN (Secretary of State):: The medals which will be distributed on the occasion of the King's silver jubilee will be the medals expressly donated by His Majesty the King to persons who are selected in accordance with the instructions of His Majesty. So far as I know none of His Majesty's medals will be distributed to school children. The government of Canada is not distributing medals.


Mr. C. E. BOTHWELL (Swift Current):: Mr. Speaker, following the answer to the question of the hon. member for South Battle-ford (Mr. Vallance) may I say that I have had a communication from some person connected with the mint to the effect that medals having to do with the jubilee celebration were for sale. I believe it would be well to have an announcement made to-morrow concerning this matter. I believe there are two sizes available.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I have only the personal
knowledge gained from having seen certain communications to His Excellency the Governor General. However, I understand certain commemorative medals were to 'be issued by the royal mint for sale and distribution in England, merely as souvenirs of this anniversary. It was suggested that a certain number of these medals might be made available for sale at the mint in Canada. As to whether or not the mint in Canada has received the medals from the London mint, I cannot at the present time give a definite . answer.


Charles Edward Bothwell: Would the minister
be good enough to make an announcement [DOT] to-morrow, because the fact is I have written letters giving information to people in my own constituency who have made inquiries. I hope I have not been misled in the matter.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: This matter is not within
the jurisdiction of the Department of the Secretary of State, I believe the inquiry should be made through the Minister of Finance (Mr. Rhodes) who has direction and control of the Royal Mint in Ottawa.


Charles Edward Bothwell: May I direct my question to the Minister of Finance?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I shall be pleased to make specific inquiries and, I hope to-morrow, advise the house definitely.


Jean-François Pouliot: May I ask the government if the distribution of such medals will carry the conferring of a title?



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Finance said, regarding the business of the house for to-day, "We will take up the bills and resolutions on the order paper." May I ask him if the house will consider order No. 28, the second reading of Bill No. 40, concerning minimum wages?


Right Hon.   S@: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, that that question cannot be answered at the moment, because the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie) has a meeting presently in his own room, but if it is convenient to take up that bill to-day we shall do so.


Jean-François Pouliot: Thank you.



BUTTER RETURNED TO CANADA

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Jean-François Pouliot: I rise, Mr. Speaker, to a question of order as well as one of privilege with regard to question No. 19 standing in my name on to-day's order paper. That question has appeared on the order paper before and an answer was given to it on Monday of last week by the hon. Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Matthews), and to-day I received exactly the same answer: "Information not available in this department." But in the original of this question which was handed to the officer of the house there were a few words which do not appear in the question on the order paper; they were "Inquiry of the hon. Minister of Agriculture" (Mr. Weir), and the answer of the hon. Minister of National Revenue to-day is that no information is available. But I would point out that the hon. Minister of Agriculture has already stated in the house that some Canadian butter was shipped back to Canada from England, and he gave the number of boxes. I put this same question now to the Minister of Agriculture, and I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will decide that question No. 19 on to-
Interim Supply

day's order paper shall stand on the order paper until I receive an answer from the hon. Minister of Agriculture.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The question appears
there.


Jean-François Pouliot: I ask you, sir, to decide that this question shall stand on the order paper until I receive an answer from the Minister of Agriculture, because the question was directed to him.



PROPOSED EXPERIMENTAL FARM

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. OiLOF HANSON (Skeena): I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture based on representations sent to him by the associated boards of trade of central and northern British Columbia and from farmers' institutes, and based also on representations that have been made to the minister by myself and I believe by the hon. member for Cariboo (Mr. Fraser), in respect to the establishment of a model or experimental farm in that portion of British Columbia. Such a farm was promised by two former governments, Liberal and Conservative. It seems impossible for me to get a reply from the minister to communications that I have sent to him. I would therefore ask him now if any consideration has been given to the subject and when I may expect an answer from his department to my letter.
Hon. ROBERT WEIR (Minister of Agriculture) :: Mr. Speaker, I thought my hon. friend would have received my answer before this. I wrote him at length and he should have received my letter before this.


Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: I called at the post office fifteen minutes ago. There has been no answer yet.



INTERIM SUPPLY

['In so far\nas this is an amendment to define more clearly the skull of the skeleton, I do not think there can be any objection on the part of those who believe in accepting the skeleton.\nMotion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.']
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Mr. Speaker, to provide for the requirements of the public service for the month of May it is desirable that we should have interim supply, and I would therefore ask for unanimous consent for one-twelfth of supply except in the case of a number of items where a little larger sum is required, and for which we are asking for an additional one-sixth. Those are for services where the expenditure is required to a greater extent in the earlier season of the year. It is of course understood that I can only proceed by unanimous consent.


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Quebec East):: Mr. Speaker, while reiterating our protest against the proposed length of the adjournment of the house, it is not our intention to oppose the request of my hon. friend. Of course, the king's government must carry on and the public service must function.


Mr. WILLIAM DUFF (Antigonish-Guys-borough):: Mr. Speaker I think before unanimous consent is given we should have some idea when the motion will be brought down fixing the date of the proposed adjournment. We do not need supply until the last of April, and I for one would like to know for different reasons when the government intends to bring down its motion for adjournment and on what date the house will adjourn.


Right Hon.   S@: I have been
waiting to see how the business of the house progressed in order to try to fix a day on which I thought we might get away. We would like to complete as much as possible of the business that is on the order paper before adjourning, in order that when we come back in May we shall not have to sit any longer than is necessary. Therefore I would ask the hon. gentleman to let his question stand over until to-morrow and perhaps in the meantime I shall be able to figure out a little more closely how we are going to get along.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: May I say in answer to
my hon. friend from Antigonish-Guysborough (Mr. Duff) that irrespective of the day we adjourn we should still require interim supply, and our object in asking for it now is that the bill may proceed to the Senate in order that there may be no delay in having assent at such time as may be convenient.


William Duff: I have no objection to that,
and I do not want to hold up supply, but I think we should know about the adjournment before the house is asked to grant supply for May, and I would ask my hon. friend the Minister of Finance to leave his request for interim supply over until to-morrow so that the government can bring down their motion and inform the house when they intend to adjourn.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Of course, Mr. Speaker,
under the circumstances we cannot proceed, and there is no recourse but to accept the suggestion of my hon. friend.

Farmers' Creditors Act



[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. Sir GEORGE PERLEY (Acting Prime Minister) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 39, to establish an economic council.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: The amendment made by the Senate to the bill for an economic council is a very simple one. In the bill itself reference is made to the Prime Minister being the head of the economic council. The usual wording used heretofore has been "the member of the king's privy council for Canada holding the position of first minister," and the effect of the Senate amendment is simply to replace the word "Prime Minister" by those words. Until a few years ago no reference was ever made to the Prime Minister in any legislation, he being always referred to as "the member of the king's privy council for Canada holding the position of first minister." I know that in England there was a Chequers Estate Act of 1917 in which reference was made to the Prime Minister, as there was also in an act of this parliament incorporating the national committee for the celebration of the diamond jubilee of confederation, in which Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King was referred to .as the Prime Minister. However, I see no objection to this amendment made by the Senate, because the words "member of the king's privy council for Canada holding office as first minister" are generally used. Therefore, I move concurrence in this amendment.


Ernest Lapointe: There is no objection to this alteration. I am quite sure that this bill was not drafted by the law officers of parliament or of the Department of Justice. I am curious to know who did draft the bill.


George Halsey Perley: I know that that has been the custom. I would remind my hon. friend that in an act passed to incorporate a national committee for the celebration of the diamond jubilee of Confederation his own leader is referred to as Right Hon. W. L. Mackenzie King, P.C., C.M.G., Prime Minister.


Ernest Lapointe: No doubt, but I do not think that act was drafted by the law officers of that time.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: In so far
as this is an amendment to define more clearly the skull of the skeleton, I do not think there can be any objection on the part of those who believe in accepting the skeleton.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.



FARMERS' CREDITORS ARRANGEMENT ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved t'he second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 10, to amend the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the amendments are three in number and will be found in the minutes of proceedings of the Senate of March 20. The first amendment is an addition to section 5A of the bill. It reads:
No proposal under this act nor the approval or confirmation thereof shall release any person who, under the Bankruptcy Act, would not be released by an order of discharge if the debtor had been adjudged bankrupt, nor shall the approval or confirmation of a proposal release any security given by any third person.
I understand it was thought that this amendment would make it clearer that the endorser is not released in respect of his obligations to pay the creditor if there is a proposal formulated with regard to a farmer. I am advised that this is merely declaratory of the existing law in all the provinces with the exception of Quebec, and that this amendment is suggested by the Senate with the object of making this applicable to Quebec, thus making the law uniform throughout the country.
The second amendment is an additional clause to section 12, and reads:
Notwithstanding anything contained in the Bankruptcy Act, an insolvent debtor resident m the province of Quebec, engaged solely in farming or the tilling of the soil, Whose liabilities to creditors provable as debts under the Bankruptcy Act exceed $500. may make an assignment for the general benefit of his creditors in any case where the board declines to formulate a proposal and certifies that in its opinion the debtors' affairs can best be administered under the Bankruptcy Act.
It was the opinion of the Senate that this provision should also be made applicable to the province of Quebec so that the farmer who is unable to have the board of review formulate a proposal may have available to him the provisions of the Bankruptcy Act, provided the board of review certifies that it is a proper case to come under the provisions of the act.
The third amendment is an additional section, which reads:
The said act shall not, without the concurrence of the creditor, apply in the case of any debt incurred after the 1st day of Mav 1935.
These are the three amendments.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.
Gold Export Act


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 42, to amend the Gold Export Act.
He said: Under the present act a licence to export gold may issue only to a chartered bank. This act was passed prior to the incorporation of the Bank of Canada, and this amendment makes it possible for a licence to issue to that institution for the export of gold.
Motion .agreed to, hill read the second time and the house went into committee thereon, Mr. Maraud in the chair.
On section 1-Licences for export of gold.
Edward Joseph Garland: Why should not the control of gold in all its aspects be under the central bank?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This bill has reference to the Gold Export Act, which provides that the export of gold may take place only under certificate of the Minister of Finance. Hitherto such certificates have been issued only to the .chartered banks. This bill has no reference to the gold holdings of the banks; it covers the sale of gold, which is a product of our mines.


Mr. DONNELLY:: I understand that in the future the chartered banks are not to hold any gold at all; why, then, should they be given the privilege of exporting gold?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This bill has no reference to -a bank's gold; it has reference only to the export of the product of our mines.


Mr. McINTOSH:: I should like to know if the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act makes provision for a counsel to represent a farmer appearing before a provincial board of review.
M.r. RHODES: I have seen very wide latitude allowed on occasions but I think it would tax the ingenuity of even my hon. friend to bring that question within the purview of the provisions of the bill mow before the committee. However, I can say to my hon. friend that we have not yet been convinced that it would be in the interests of the farmers to have counsel employed. I gave the reasons for this decision the other day. No requests have been, made to me that that course should be taken, and this would seem to indicate that the farmers as a whole are accepting the point of view that their interests are best served under the existing arrangement. As was intimated at
[Mr. Ehodes.J
an earlier stage of the bill, if it should be demonstrated that it would be in the interests of the farmers to employ counsel, the government -will not hesitate to do so.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is it the intention of the government that the chartered banks shall -continue to receive licences for the export of gold?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It is really a matter of convenience. For example-, in the Yukon a licence issued to a chartered bank would prove of convenience to a shipper. If it were through Vancouver it would no doubt be the Bank of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize a deduction of five per cent from the amount of certain salaries or other compensations or indemnities payable by the government of Canada during the fiscal year ending the 31st March, 1936, and to provide for the payment out of the consolidated revenue fund of such amounts as are necessary under the proposed legislation.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, -Mr. Morand in the chair.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I should explain that the bill which will be founded on the resolution is similar in terms to the one of last year except that the deduction is five per cent instead of ten per cent. There is this exception however. It will be recalled that last year we removed the deduction from those up to and including the salary of SI.000 per annum. In this bill we have made a further step and have raised it from $1,000 to $1,200; in other words, those who are in receipt of $1,200 per annum will be in precisely the same position as they have been heretofore-no deduction will apply to them. It may interest the committee to know that>-


Mr. VENIOT:: They are still debarred from statutory increases.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: That is a consideration apart from this bill; it is a matter dealt with by the treasury board and is not a question of legislative enactment. By raising the figure from $1,000 to $1,200 the effect will be

Salary Deduction Act
to bring within the provisions of the measure some 4,000 temporary employees and 3,000 permanent. It will be remembered that last year those affected by the $1,000 provision were altogether 18,000 in number, and the total number now removed from the application of the salary deduction will be 25,000.


Mr. NEILL:: This includes those receiving
$1,200?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes, up to and including


Mr. CHEVRIER:: My colleague and I, representing Ottawa, cannot say that we are fully in accord with this resolution, though of course we shall have to proceed on the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread and accept the resolution as it stands. We desire to say however that our acceptance of the resolution must not be construed in any way as the acceptance of the underlying principle, namely, that the ten per cent deduction was warranted. It was absolutely unwarranted, it was unjustifiable, and it was a curtailment of purchasing power to a devastating extent in this community. We reserve further comments until the bill which is to be introduced1 is brought down for second reading.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: In answer to the senior member for Ottawa, who has always been consistent in his opposition to the principle of a salary deduction, I may say that this bill provides a little more than half a loaf, because while it is true that only half of the salary deduction is applicable, on the other hand the whole loaf is extended to some 7,000 employees, and to that extent it goes a little more than half way in the endeavour to meet the situation. I am not going to repeat now what I have said in former years, namely, that it is not a pleasant duty to have to be associated with anything in the form of salary deductions, and I can only say once more that I regret the financial situation is such that we cannot make the full restoration. I think however that the civil servants, even those adversely affected to the extent of five per cent, appreciate the situation and realize that an extra five per cent means a little more than $3,000,000, which in these days is no inconsiderable sum.


Ernest Lapointe: When will the statutory increases be given to the employees? I understand that they have been stopped during the last few years, and in many instances those employees who were entitled to statutory increases and have not been receiving them have been contributing a good deal more than five per cent-more than ten
per cent-because they are not getting the advantage of the augmented salary to which they would have been entitled.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I only express my own
view on the subject raised by my hon. friend from Quebec East, but it is a view which I have formed after giving a great deal of thought to the matter. The statutory increases were designed in the first instance to reward service; they were intended to apply only to those who were entitled, because of service, to receive increases. Unfortunately however, through carelessness down through the years, the increases became more or less automatic, and therefore those who richly deserved them were in no better position than members of the civil service who did not deserve an increase. It is unfortunate that because of that fact-and it runs into a large sum of money-many faithful employees who no doubt have earned and are entitled to increases have been debarred. I make that observation only in passing. I do hope the original intention of the act will be carried out in future, because on balance it would be vastly to the benefit of the civil service and of good civil servants if the statutory increases applied only as originally intended. However, that is more or less by the way. Coming directly to the question submitted by my hon. friend, I have a hope that during the recess we may be able to address ourselves to the question of statutory increases. I am not at the moment holding out the hope that a blanket increase, as has obtained heretofore, will be given. On that I am not expressing a final opinion. At all events, it will be our hope and purpose to deal with the question of statutory increases at the earliest possible moment.


Peter John Veniot: As regards the statutory
increases, it will be remembered that I took this matter up last year and directed the attention of the Minister of Finance to what I considered to be an injustice to certain members of the service. Let me give an example in point. Take the case of a man receiving $1,320 a year and still entitled to statutory increases up to a certain figure. In the last three years, 1982, 1933 and 1934, including the lack of his statutory increases and his ten per cent deduction, he has contributed to the benefit of the country in round figures the sum of $1,100, while a civil servant with a salary of $3,000 a year, who in 1932 was receiving all the statutory increases to which he was entitled, has contributed only $900 in the same period. There is certainly an injustice there, and it should be remedied.
Salary Deduction Act

I was going to make this suggestion to the minister at this time: Since he is reducing the ten per cent deduction to five per cent, he might consider the question of still further reducing it to, say, two and a half per cent in the case of those who have not yet reached the limit of their statutory increases under the law. The minister said that during the recess the government might consider some other scheme than that of a blanket deduction. That is a suggestion which he might consider. I claim it is unfair that civil servants who have not reached the limit of their statutory increases should have deductions made from their salaries at the same rate as that applied to those who have reached their maximum. Some remedy should be applied. Under the law civil servants are entitled to their statutory increases provided they fulfil certain conditions.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Qualify that a little.


Peter John Veniot: I am going to. When
they are appointed by the civil service commission at a minimum salary, it is stated what their annual increase shall be until the maximum is reached, and that maximum is named.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: My hon. friend will recall that they do not receive that statutory increase as a matter of right. That is the point I want to make clear.


Peter John Veniot: I am coming to that.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: They receive it only upon recommendation of the head of the department.


Peter John Veniot: Not at all. I know in the Post Office Department-and I speak of it because I know it better than the other departments-they have to undergo a qualifying examination to show that their ability or efficiency is sufficient to merit the increase. When that is submitted by the deputy head of the department to the civil service commission, the latter investigate the matter, and if they find that those civil servants are entitled, under the conditions under which they were first appointed, to the statutory increase, they get it. In- fact I claim that the government, prior to the time they started in to make the deduction, could not refuse the statutory increase once the order was approved by the civil service commission. What has happened in this instance through the action of the government or the treasury board is that the civil service commission have been debarred from considering the meritorious or efficient service of those ' who

are entitled to statutory increases, and that is why they are not being considered under the statutory increase regulations. That is why I contend that an injustice is being done to those civil servants. If conditions had continued as in the past; if this depression had not taken place and if the treasury board or the government had not issued an order debarring the civil service commission from giving effect to statutory increases on grounds of merit or efficiency, those civil servants would be entitled according to their grade to statutory increases of. from $60 to $120 a year. But they are debarred from obtaining that, and because of their being so debarred, under a blanket deduction from salaries, a civil servant receiving $1,320 is called upon to pay more than another who is receiving $3,000 a year. That is not fair.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I want to say just a word and not to traverse the ground covered by the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Veniot) because that is a matter we have to deal with apart from this bill. As a matter of fact salary increases have been given in individual cases. I rose however merely for the purpose of saying this: I admit at once that there have been cases of injustice and some are quite serious. I have had of course to investigate these cases myself and of necessity they are bound to arise when one comes to the border line cases in any process of adjustment one attempts to make.


Peter John Veniot: When a blanket deduction is made.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes; that is the difficulty. I hope we are nearing the time when we shall be past that difficulty, and the committee will bear in mind the answer I gave to the hon. member for Quebec East.


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: I did not intend at this stage of the proceedings to say anything regarding statutory increases; I thought the proper time would be when the bill was introduced. There is only one matter I would like to point out to the minister. He has stated that while the return is five per cent, quite a large number of civil servants will be placed in as good a position as they were before.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Seven thousand.


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: There is this feature
about the matter that up to a certain point, as far as I can understand the situation, the five per cent will be returned, but every civil servant will now have to contribute the five per cent to the superannuation fund, whereas before those under a certain classification did not have to do so. Now they are getting back

Income War Tax Act
their five per cent, but they will be asked to contribute the five per cent to the superannuation fund, so that they will be no better o2 than before. It may be all very well to say that this affects only seven thousand, but those particular ones are not placed in any better position than before. When we talk about putting them into just as good a position as that which they occupied before, the minister will remember that when this matter was under discussion in the first instance it was stated that when these deductions were abolished the service would be placed in exactly the same position as it was in before the deductions were made; that civil servants would not get any more but would not get any less than what they were entitled to. I agree with what has been said by the hon. member for Gloucester as to the statutory increases, but there is much more to be said when these matters are being considered. I do not think this is the opportune time to discuss the matter, but if the minister wants to abide by his word-that when the deductions are entirely eliminated the civil servants will be placed in the position that they occupied before the deductions took place-he will see to it that steps are taken to give back to the civil servants the statutory increases of which they were deprived and the amounts to which they were entitled. At present a large number of employees are acting in a capacity for which they are not being paid. If they have been promoted to positions in connection with which the salary range is very much wider they are performing duties very much more onerous and responsible. They ought to be paid for those duties, but they are still receiving their old salaries. However, I think the proper time to take up these questions is when the bill is in committee.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I will resist the temptation to reply to my hon. friend and adopt his suggestion, which I think is very sound, that it would be better to discuss these matters when the actual bill is before the house.


Mr. MacINNLS:: Did I understand the minister to say the government were going to consider further the matter of statutory increases and promotions?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes.


Angus MacInnis: In that case I have very little to say, but I think the statutory increases and promotions, as they have operated up to the present time, have been very inequitable and discriminatory in regard to employees now in the service. I understand that if a permanent employee is promoted to a higher position, that does not automatically
carry with it the increased salary that goes with the higher position. On the other hand if it is certified that there is no one in the department who can fill the position; if applications are invited from outsiders and someone is appointed temporarily to fill the position, that temporary employee receives the salary that goes with the position. I think it is absurd to carry on in that way. Surely if a temporary employee-of course he may be made permanent later on-is appointed to a position and given the salary that goes with it, the employee in the service who is qualified for promotion to a higher position also should receive the salary that goes with that position.
I do not know if the matter has been drawn to the attention of the minister in this way, but I hope he will give this point some consideration and, if possible, do something in the matter.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I do not seek to question the circumstances as put forth by my hon. friend; they may be so, but I am not aware of them. Certainly it would be a very grave injustice if a temporary employee were allowed to come in and receive the salary that attached to the position while a permanent employee in the department who is looking for promotion should be denied that opportunity unless he accepts a lower salary. I will make particular inquiry in view of the suggestion of my hon. friend, but he will realize that this has no reference to this bill as such. Certainly it will be considered in connection with the whole question of statutory increases.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Rhodes thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 53 to provide for the deduction in compensation in the public service.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



INCOME WAR TAX ACT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to provide that the members osf the judiciary, and the members of the military, naval and air forces of Canada, and of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, other than enlisted men, shall be liable to pay a special income tax of five per cent upon their salaries received during the fiscal year 1935-36, in addition to any other tax payable under the act.
[Stage Direction]
Rehabilitation of Drought Areas
Motion agreed to, resolution considered in committee, reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Rhodes thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 54 to amend the Income War Tax Act (Special Tax).
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. ROBERT WEIR (Minister of Agriculture) moved that the house go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the rehabilitation of drought areas in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, and for the appropriation for the said purposes of such funds as may be necessary to carry into effect the proposed legislation.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Morand in the chair.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Robert Weir: Mr. Chairman, at this stage there is very little to add to what has been said already in this connection. It is proposed to carry on investigational work and at the same time give a demonstration of what we believe can be done with the cooperation of the farmers in these large drought areas. The policy we propose to follow if this bill receives the approval of the house is to set aside small areas where there has been a certain measure of success attained by the farmers through their own efficiency, in spite of the great difficulties with which they have had to contend during the past number of years. It is felt that these areas are so localized at the present time that the efforts even of those farmers have been frustrated because of the conditions immediately surrounding their own land. It is proposed to set aside five very much larger areas, corresponding to a township or thirty-six square miles, three in Saskatchewan, one in Alberta and one in Manitoba. We propose to carry on these investigations and at the same time demonstrate what can be done in the way of reclaiming areas that have been abandoned entirely and given up as well nigh hopeless.
In addition to that a program is being undertaken to increase as quickly as possible the development of the best grass seeds, grains and clover seeds, and to make them available in these areas, if it is demonstrated in the present year that they will do what we hope
rMr. Rhodes.]
may be done with them. Further, tree planting will be carried on to a limited extent in the first year, increasing in extent from year to year. Careful plans have been drawn up in an effort to assist the farmers and the ranchers in the conservation of the water in the district. Throughout the whole program it is our purpose to assist the farmers, and to demonstrate whether or not the people in these areas can continue to live there with only very little more moisture than they are now receiving. Our first aim is to do everything possible to make these people selfsustaining. Secondly we must decide which areas are best suited for grain growing, which are best suited for ranching, and the best way to handle those areas which are intermediate.


Mr. BROWN:: With the purpose of the
proposed bill I am in entire agreement. One of the tragedies in the west is that we have districts which in years past have produced enormous crops of grain, in which there were splendid houses and other buildings but which are to-day abandoned and in some instances are almost in the condition of deserts. I believe that is one of the greatest tragedies witnessed in Canadian history. Certainly I should not like to say anything which could be interpreted as being in opposition to the principle of the bill, but at the same time there is a possibility of becoming too optimistic as to what may be accomplished. For instance, reference has been made to the conservation of water supply. That is all to the good, but my opinion is that it will not have as great an effect upon the rainfall as some people seem to think it will have. If it were true that the damming up of streams and the creation of reservoirs of moisture would increase the rainfall-and after all, that is the great consideration-we might very well ask: Why was it that in 1870, 1880 or 1800, at a time when we had many lakes scattered throughout that country, we came upon a period of drought? Of course it may be contended that drainage was a factor in the problem. I question that argument, however, because in the part of Manitoba with which I am familiar drainage has been carried on only to a very limited extent. Outside of the Red river valley the drying up of the sloughs was not brought about by drainage, but simply by a continued lack of rainfall.
Many newspaper correspondents have written concerning this matter, but there has been a failure to take into account the fact that western Canada passed through previous periods of drought, of which fact abundant evidence is available. From my own experience and observations, extending over a period of

Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas
fifty-three years, and dating from the time I first came to the community, I could speak with some authority on the point. In the early eighties there was abundant moisture, but there was evidence that a few years before that time there had been drought. During the greater part of my fifty-three years in that community I have lived in township 4, range 11, section 10. On section 3, immediately south of the one in which I reside, there is what is described on the surveyors' notes as Dry Salt lake. That township was surveyed in 1872, I have in my possession the surveyors' notes, and for that reason I know this particular spot is described as having been Dry Salt lake. Yet, in my time I have seen eight feet of water in that lake. I recall having discussed the matter some years ago with a man who had been in that district four years prior to the time I came, and as a point worthy of note he mentioned that he had picked strawberries between t'he water and the bush. At the time he spoke however the water was right up to the edge of the bush. This particular township is wooded, a point to which I shall make further reference later.
I Have seen eight feet of water in the lake, so I believe it reached its maximum point about the year 1882, and has varied from time to time. Last year some hundreds of tons of coarse hay were cut upon the marsh. As further proof that there must have been a considerable period of drought may I say that on section 12, not far from my home there is another lake. When in the year 1885 I first saw it the lake was right in among the hills and the water reached right up to the edge of the bushes. Dead trees four or five inches thick were standing out in the water, proving that for a considerable number of years there had been dry ground at that point. The lake was full of water in 1885, but has since become dry. I know of one instance where the old Missouri trail, an old buffalo hunters' trail which used to run from Winnipeg to the head waters of the Missouri, ran right into and out the other side of that which in my time, at the time I first saw it, was a marsh. Evidently the trail through the marsh had been travelled when it was dry. Therefore I believe we must question the possibility of our being able to influence rainfall to the extent we may hope.
In making this observation I do not wish it to be understood that I am attempting to discourage anything now being done. That country was dry, but I believe it is true to say that in those days the soil was not blowing as it is to-day. About the year 1887 I can recall an occasion when some men from the Regina country came to my section of the west. If I remember correctly two families 92582-166
came down, and one of the men told me that in two years they had not .been able to grow enough grain to feed a hen. Yet we know that in years following those Regina plains produced enormous crops of grain. I could give many evidences of the fact that in earlier years the west passed through a long period of dry weather. The drought was evidently just as great then as it is at this time, and so while the conservation of moisture and the building of dams to hold water is all to the good, I question very much if it is going to realize the expectations of many that it will bring about increased rainfall. I may say the same in regard to the planting of trees. The township in which I live is a timbered township along the edge of the Pembina river valley. There was an abundance of moisture there in those early days, but while it was a timbered country I doubt very much whether the difference in the amount of timber that was there then and what is now there was sufficient to affect the rainfall, if it does affect the rainfall at all. Timber grows because there is rain, and I doubt if the rain comes because there is timber. I think it is the other way, and I think we are confusing cause and effect in that matter.
I doubt very much if the planting of trees can be carried on ,to any great advantage. The fact of the matter is that many groves that were planted and which flourished well during periods of moisture died last fall. I have in mind particularly one fine grove which for years was a beauty spot, and yet when I passed by it last year following the dry season I noticed that it was all gone to nothing. So I have grave doubts whether tree planting in view of the drought conditions can be made a suocess from the point of view of attracting moisture.
As to what the minister has said with regard to the distribution of grass seeds and bringing back the land into grass, and as to the conservation of the moisture supply, I think that is all to the good, but I have felt that in many of the discussions that have taken place in the press and elsewhere with regard to the matter sufficient importance has not been attached to the fact that the western country has passed through long periods of draught in times past when there was not any great number of settlers in that part of the country engaged in agriculture. I remember distinctly talking with a descendant of one of the old time Selkirk settlers, and he told me that for two years in succession back in the sixties, I think it was, they had to take their cattle from Winnipeg up to Portage la Prairie. Another old timer, a Norwegian who



Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas
-came out in the early days and was a Hudson's Bay Company employee, said he had seen the Red river so dry that he could step over it. It was inconceivable to me at that time. These are facts that I think the public should know when we are entering upon a scheme of this kind. I do not say that to discourage the efforts that may properly be made to overcome the difficulties of the drought situation as much as it is possible for us to do, but at the same time I think we should be prepared for what may possibly happen, that the outcome of our activities may not have all the effects that we may wish them to have, and that after all we may have to wait for nature to take its course and provide recurring periods of abundant rainfall.


Mr. WILLIS:: Mr. Chairman, as one who
comes from the drought area of Manitoba I should like to place a few facts before the house. First I should like to point out to those who do not come from the west that the section of Manitoba known as the drought area of that province is a settlement of Ontario citizens. I point that out particularly because sometimes we think that those who are experiencing these conditions out there are of a different sort from ourselves.
I should also like to point out that in that drought area of Manitoba the general practice is to engage in mixed farming, and not to engage in the practice that has been described in this house as mining for wheat. That area was opened up about 1885, and from it many fortunes have been made. Thousands of people have made their money there and moved to the Pacific coast or elsewhere, and at the present time it is largely the second generation that is there.
In the drought areas of Manitoba there are thirteen municipalities. Five of them are in what is known as drought area A; they have suffered for five years a complete crop failure. The eight municipalities in drought area B have for two or three years suffered a crop failure. The land value of these thirteen municipalities is some $56,000,000. The annual crop value within these municipalities, as it was formerly, was some $20,000,000. I realize that in the province of Saskatchewan you could multiply those figures many times over, but that is the situation in Manitoba. The average rainfall there in the past has been some fifteen inches per year. I point that out with a view to demonstrating that the reclamation of that area is completely worth while from a national point of view.

The present situation within that area is that we are now having about one-half of the normal rainfall, the streams have largely dried up, the soil has drifted, with the result that the rate of evaporation has increased, and relief has become general. But the particularly bad feature which I desire to point out, and shall probably stress again, is that the drought area is expanding. Dry winds due to the conditions there have a much greater scope, with the result that more moisture is needed now than was needed in the past. The crop last year within that area was approximately one per cent of the crop which we had in 1928 in the municipalities within drought area A.
It does not help us much to say that conditions south of the line*

we are close to the international border-are much worse, but actually they are much worse. The present situation however presents an opportunity, and a special opportunity, of guarding against a recurrence of these conditions. When times were good people would not bother with reclamation, and that is why the present time creates a special opportunity with rega*d to the projects which are now going forward. I say that this question has a national aspect due to the fact that the drought areas are expanding, and some of those who now sit complacently back may in the future, if nothing is done, face a similar situation even if at present they are not affected by the drought conditions. The people of the district from which I come never suspected in the past that these conditions could obtain there at all. We believed that we had good soil. We have close to that area the Turtle Mountain forest reserve, giving a degree of protection which is helpful. I want to point out to those farmers who do not live in the drought areas that they are carrying on precisely the same practices that we in the drought areas carried on in the past, with the result that they are themselves inviting the same conditions, and if a change is not made they will receive that which they invite. Therefore I think it is absolutely necessary that we plan now, or we shall face worse conditions in the future. I think Joseph was right, that years of plenty are followed by years of poverty, and that that will happen in the future. The dry area itself might be likened to a mighty octopus which is constantly pushing its tentacles into new territory.
I think the proposals outlined by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Weir) will prove very helpful. According to articles which

Rekabilitalion of Drought Areas
have ap:peared in the press, he has been work- to furnish the very necessary funds, and pering on these for some time. I should like to quote a Canadian press dispatch dated September 5, 1934:
"Officials of this department have made extensive studies of the driedout district," the minister explained. "We have much data with regard to blocking streams, thus holding back the water, lands that should be planted with trees and in regard to the proper grass for other districts.
"Anyone who looks back over the great crops those districts have produced must be convinced that with proper methods they could be saved and made big producers again," Mr. Weir said. "Carefully planned and coordinated effort is necessary over a term of years."
The Mail and Empire of September 6, 1934, quoted the minister as follows:
The Minister of Agriculture has a plan for the districts in which soil erosion prevails. He would remove them from provincial jurisdiction and' form them into a federal area. Then he would inaugurate a policy of strip farming along with the cultivation of suitable grasses and coarse grains. He has expressed the belief that within ten years it would be possible to alter the entire face of the countryside, to bring the land back to its old fibrous state, and to have the farmers self-supporting during the process. His scheme would include the damming of streams for a more effective use of the water supply which is available.
A little later Premier Bracken of Manitoba made a valuable addition to the discussion of reclamation. It might be interesting to note that the premier is a dry farming expert and I believe his textbook in connection with dry farming is generally accepted by agricultural colleges. On October 25, 1934, Premier Bracken put forward certain proposals in this connection. The first was the offer by the provinces of the services of such technical men and departments, without charge, as can be utilized in the prosecution of such a major project. The next was the appointment by the dominion of a coordinating body to correlate the thousand and one efforts being made in a variety of directions by many individuals, both in and out of public service, and by many departments both of governments and of universities. The third was the provision by the dominion for the necessary additional finances to ensure the successful carrying out of a sane, well-balanced program over the next ten years. The fourth was the active and sympathetic and generous cooperation of individuals, communities, railways and governments in a joint effort to solve a major problem.
I believe the proposals made this afternoon by the minister more than cover the suggestions made by Premier Bracken. Other aids are to be provided in connection with this matter of reclamation. The government is 92582-166J
haps that is most important. The plan of setting a township aside for demonstration is very good as this work should be done on a large scale. Smaller demonstration plots will be laid out to show what can be done by the individual intelligent farmer. I think great care has been taken in the preparation of these proposals but I would suggest that the experience and opinion of the men who may have lived in a dried out area for forty years or more should be considered. I have confidence in experts but I have greater confidence in a man who has demonstrated over a period of years that he can carry on successfully in spite of drought conditions. I was glad to note that the minister called into conference at Ottawa experts from different parts of Canada. I might mention in particular Mr. T. C. Main, who has given a great part of his life to the study of this particular question. Much material has been gathered on this subject, but the time has come when it should be demonstrated whether or not the different theories will work.
The hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown) stated that dams will not make rain. That statement may be correct but at the same time dams will prevent the actual rainfall from running off the land. Many mistakes have been made in the past. The practice has been to drain any pond that might be located on a farm in order to obtain more land. The result was the drying up of more land. The same thing was done in the case of lakes. There was a large lake in my area known as Whitewater lake. An attempt was made to drain this lake in order that the land which it covered might be cultivated. The result was that the surrounding district was made much drier that it had been in the past. The construction of roads has had a harmful effect. In the province of Manitoba alone there are 3,600 miles of highway with ditches on both sides. The result of the building of these ditches has been the running off of thousands of tons of water which could have been conserved. It is very necessary that streams should be damned up, as well as any small runways. This would prevent the usual spring runoff. This is an engineering problem but I believe much assistance could be given by men who have come through these difficult times. They know from their own experience just what should be done. I would point out that the Souris river runs right through the drought area of Manitoba and this river could be used for demonstrating the value of dams throughout drought area A, the worst district in the province.
2608	COMMONS
Rehabilitation of Drought Areas
The hon. member for Lisgar pointed out that you must have rain before you can have trees. I would point out to him that trees have been planted and have continued to grow within these drought areas. During the last four years I have planted some fifteen hundred trees on my own farm and I believe at least ninety per cent of them have continued to grow. Our practice in the past in connection with trees was very bad. Many trees were cut down and in some cases where they could not be cut down fast enough, a fire was started. The result was that in addition to wasting wood which could have been used, we lost the benefit which would have been derived from the trees. Shelter belts are most necessary. In spite of what has been said by so many experts, I think we must turn to England and Russia for proof that the planting of trees has proved of tremendous value. In England 45,000,000 trees are planted each year and I think this is some indication that they are not doing it just for the fun of sticking trees in the ground. Such planting has a definite value in the wood produced besides preventing soil drifting to a certain extent. The Russian experiment in the planting of trees has proved a success. Demonstration plots which have been laid out prove that trees provide a greater conservation of moisture and bring about an increased rainfall. The rainfall in the northern part of Manitoba has been only slightly greater than that in the south, there being probably a difference of an inch of rain during the year. In the north they have had good crops but they have not had such crops in the south. We could have conserved that moisture in the south by trees or by cultural practices, and we should have had in the south, had we done so, as good a crop as they had in the north. Dean Shaw of the university of Saskatchewan is an expert who points to the value of cultural practices but overlooks the value which may accrue from the planting of trees and the building of dams. In the past we have misused the soil. Our cultural practices have been to get as much wheat in one year as possible, trying it again the next year, and continuing in that way. We have not had the summer fallow every second year, nor have we had to a sufficient degree strip farming. We have kept on getting as much out of the land as we could and have not replaced by means of fertilizer anything we have taken out, with the result that the land has been steadily getting poorer. It is necessary through these cultural practices to save if possible every ounce of moisture which comes to the land.

By these practices also we could stop the general runoff of water in the spring. These practices are of great value. But what happens when you call in an expert? Dean Shaw, for instance, seems in my opinion to be able to see cultural practices only. Call in experts in regard to trees and they can see only the trees, and the engineer believes that you have only to use the dam in order to conserve the water. I am glad to note that in the present program it is intended to use all these experts for what- they are worth, giving them an opportunity to demonstrate whether they can actually create the conditions which they think they can. The minister indicated today that grasses are to be used which will demonstrate that pastures can be created. If it is possible to get grasses sufficiently hardy to be used on the submarginal lands, then in the future we shall be able to have larger pastures, such as we ought to have had in the past, and we shall then be able to go into mixed farming in a way that we have not done in the past. If possible those lands which are known as the light lands should be taken out of cultivation. It is a most heartbreaking thing to see people moving into a district and going on a farm which has never in its existence yielded a proper return to anyone who owned it-to see newcomers going on such a farm, spending a few years on it only to leave and be replaced by someone else who will work his heart out trying to earn a living on submarginal land.
Crested wheat grass has, I think, undoubtedly proven that it is of tremendous value provided you can get it started. That is the real difficulty. 'You need a certain degree of moisture before you can get it started. I planted crested wheat grass and was unsuccessful owing to the fact that there was not sufficient moisture in that area. Where it can be started it is of considerable value and we should use it. We should also have larger pastures than we have had in the past.
The need for action is immediate because seasonal preparations are being made at the present time within that area. Certain farmers are moving out to other areas and if they knew what was coming some of them would remain while others would not. It is immediately necessary to demonstrate what can be done in order that these people may know precisely where they stand. I would urge that the farmers themselves should be consulted, and I am glad to note that that is contemplated in the plan with regard to the smaller areas. The plan would indicate that certain farmers who in the past have been

Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas
fairly successful will be given assistance to demonstrate to the rest of the community what can be done under these conditions. In connection with the plan itself, I very much fear the return of good crops. That may be a strange thing to say, but I fear it for the reason that if good crops return we shall never have a reclamation scheme and therefore we shall not be able to demonstrate, as we should have demonstrated in the past, that these dry periods recur from time to time. The hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown) spoke of times in Manitoba long before I was bom and gave evidence to show that such periods have occurred before. We should bear in mind that they have occurred before and probably will occur again. That is a most important thing to keep in mind, because when we are having good crops we think that they will get better every year. I submit that we should not be caught napping again as we have been in the past. Future rains will blot out the memory of the dry periods, but such periods will come again and we must be prepared for them.
I should like the minister to bring his experts to the area I represent so that they may see the actual situation for themselves and understand it from firsthand knowledge. This is very necessary. It is all very well to visualize it 1,500 miles away, but it is different when you go there and see conditions as they are. Had they been there in 1925, 1926, 1927 or 1928 they would have thought that in that country we had the finest land in Canada. In times of adversity we must remember that formerly lands flourished and bloomed, and in times of plenty we should remember on the other hand that sand piles up and in some instances the winds do much damage; the fence posts entirely disappear and you have a condition that suggests the sand dunes of Africa. As I say, these conditions will occur again and every possible aid should be employed to meet the situation.
I should recommend the use of the Canadian Conservation Institute, which has started in Winnipeg and, I think, will spread to other parts of Canada. It is a very useful organization, gathering material and giving advice which will be helpful in the solution of the problem. I think also that the National Research Council should be used. No doubt it will be used for various purposes to overcome that difficulty. That council in the past has given inestimable advice with respect to various problems that confront this country and it can do so again. We must if possible avoid the practices that have prevailed in the
past of cutting down timber, mining the land instead of having the summer fallow, and so on. These things must be avoided in the future and we must start our reclamation program. This must be started at once lest greater harm be done than has so far taken place. This calls for action and I would point out that if something be not done now the opportunity will be lost as far as reclamation is concerned, because the country will come back and demonstrate its ability to produce crops. If that demonstration takes place immediately all thought of reclamation will be forgotten and those who follow us will go down as we have done and discover once more that Joseph was right. Dry periods necessarily follow periods of plenty.


Charles Edward Bothwell: Coming from the
drought area of Saskatchewan, I appreciate very much the action the Minister of Agriculture is taking in bringing this legislation before the house. I am also glad that there is apparently some cooperation between the minister's department and the same department of the Saskatchewan government, and I hope during the administration of this reclamation scheme that cooperation will be continued. It is not my intention to endeavour to advise the minister how that area should be reclaimed. He has in Swift Current an experimental farm that has been studying the situation for the past five years, ever since the drought affected us so seriously. All the information that has been collected there is available to him, and various men from the west have made written reports on what they believe should be done. The minister in his opening words to-day said that it was the intention of his department under this legislation to carry on investigational work. I understand from that he means that he through his officials will consult with the old residents in that area, gather what data they have collected during many years of actual living there, and will, without tying himself to any particular scheme, put into effect the plan that all this data will lead him to believe is the proper one to adopt in order to reclaim that district.
The hon. member for Souris (Mr. Willis) made a remark which I want to stress to some extent. He said that in dealing with the situation there, "We should not overlook the men who have carried on without assistance in spite of drought conditions." In other words, the men who have been able to make a success, although to a very limited degree, of their farming operations, must not be overlooked in any reclamation project that is put
Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas

into effect. One of the most important matters in connection with this whole project in the drought areas of the west is to bring back again to the people living there a little bit of the morale they had a few years ago, and those who have carried on in spite of the most adverse conditions must be encouraged to continue what they have done, in the past. I have before me a letter from one of those men who have never received any relief. He has made his living off the land in some kind of way, and he has become actually discouraged with the situation in which he finds himself. He sees his neighbour willing to accept relief to the extent of hundreds of dollars; he realizes that if this land is ever reclaimed he is going to have to help to pay for that relief because it may not come out of the individual who gets it now, and he wonders whether it is worth his while to continue living as parsimoniously as he has done; if it is worth his while to continue to try to make ends meet. I want to read just a word or two from that letter, because I think it will give to those in the east who hardly realize what the people in the drought area have gone through, some indication of the situation. He says:
I have had no crop for the last five years, not much prospect for next year.
This letter was received by me on December 8, 1934. He goes on to speak about the matter regarding which he has a complaint to make:
The railway cut my land in half, put gates in just wide enough to get through with four horses, when we go through with six or eight we have to unhitch.
That is only one extract from that letter. In a subsequent letter he says:
I am enclosing statement received from the board. I understood that the debt adjustment board was to help us poverty stricken farmers out of some of our difficulties. If they serve others as they have me we are just as well without them. Five years' crop failure with implements worn out, buildings going to ruin, before this can be paid I will owe them more than the place is worth at seven per cent interest, they sure are generous. In 1931 some of my neighbours got between $400 and $500 in relief; what happened, it was given to them. I never got one cent of relief. I schemed; what we couldn't get we done without. Again in 1934 some of my neighbours had as much crop as I did. No. sir. they didn't save it for seed, it was sold; let the government furnish the seed, clothes and food. Encouraging!
I am going to make this suggestion to the minister and also to the Minister of Finance: A little while ago we were discussing the Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, and I drew the attention of the Minister of Finance to some of the difficulties that we encounter
l Mr. Both well.]
in the drought area. I believe it is necessary for all departments of government that are concerned with that area to endeavour to make arrangements whereby debts will be reduced. Let me put the matter in this way. The farmers who went out into those districts some years ago invested what money they had, and spent years of work trying to build up their farms, used just as good judgment as did the men who bought dominion government bonds, and the former constitute a more valuable asset to Canada than do the men who bought the bonds. Those farmers have put in their lives in that district and many of them are now up in years. In the past five years they have seen the work of their whole life go by the board. At best their holdings are not now worth more than fifty per cent of what they were worth a few years ago, and as a matter of fact most of those lands could not be sold at the present time at any price. After using just as good judgment in going into that area as anybody else in Canada used in making investments, they have seen the work of a lifetime cut in two, and in many cases it has vanished altogether. It is really a famine condition in that area. In my opinion there is no use telling those farmers: We are going to work out some reclamation scheme and after we get it worked out, we expect you to follow our instructions and to pay those debts that were incurred on the land at the price at which it sold before we realized it was a drought area; debts that were incurred at a time when farmers were receiving high prices for their products, and we expect you to pay interest thereon. I honestly believe there must be a substantial cut in all debts in that whole drought area. Mortgage companies will have to take their losses. Some people say the mortgage companies only borrow their money from estates, from widows and orphans and so on. I do not know how many widows and orphans are going to suffer through a cut in that debt structure, when you come down to the final analysis, but I do say that the people holding securities in these mortgage, trust and insurance companies can better afford to take the loss than the men who are struggling to reclaim the land. I believe these people can well afford to share that burden. It is not fair that this group of men and women and children as well, who have done everything in their power to carry on, should bear all the loss resulting from the calamity that has overtaken them. If the land was not fit for cultivation the government never should have opened it for settlement. They encouraged the people to

Rehabilitation of Drought Areas
go there, and I say they were encouraged to put forth the efforts they have expended on the land.
Just in order to strengthen what I have said, or that my words may endorse what has been said by these people, I want to read part of a resolution that was passed at a certain gathering of farmers, who realize their rather hopeless situation. They do not ask for a fifty per cent reduction in their debt, though I believe it would be in the interests of all concerned if a general reduction of fifty per cent could be made throughout the whole area. This is what they ask for:
1.	That all arrears of taxes be reduced fifty per cent and the remaining fifty per cent be then consolidated.
2.	That owing to the shortage of horse power and the poor state of farm machinery and farms (very few machines having been purchased during the immediate past five years) sufficient funds be retained from the first paying crop to replace worn out and aged horses and repair and replace the essential machinery so that the business of farming may be carried on efficiently.
3.	That interest on all debts from January 1, 1929. to date of adjustment be cancelled.
4.	That all short term mortgages and agreements for sale be extended for a period of at least twenty years from January 1, 1935.
5.	That all existing long term mortgages be extended for a period of at least five years.
6.	That interest on all mortgages be reduced to a maximum of five per cent.
7.	That mortgage company's share of crop be not more than one-quarter clear and that no share be payable to mortgage company unless the balance of crop left for the farmer be at least ten bushels per acre of wheat out of which the farmer must furnish seed, pay taxes, thresh bill, etc.
8.	That when wheat yield is not more than ten bushels per acre, only taxes be paid and that time payment on all other debts be automatically extended for one year; also that no pressure be brought to bear on any debtor when wheat average is ten bushels per acre or less.
That ,may sound, to people in the east, rather an extreme resolution, but as the hon. member for Souris knows and as many hon. members on this side who have been through that drought area also realize, it is impossible to reclaim that area unless the farmers who are still there can be encouraged to carry on. I believe it is as important as anything the minister can, do to restore the morale to those people.
Now just a word in regard to the towns and cities, particularly the city of Swift Current, which I represent. It was not exactly through drought conditions that this city got into financial difficulties; at one time it was sort of a boom town. We grew a little too fast; we spent too much money, and then we met with certain misfortunes. Some years ago that
city had to approach its creditors. An adjustment was made; the time for the payment of the indebtedness was extended for a period of five years; interest was reduced, but nothing was done in regard to the principal. That agreement was renewed for a further period, and at the time of the renewal all interest in arrears other than the percentage that was agreed to be paid was wiped out. Within the next year or two we will have to make a further adjustment with these creditors, by reason of the expiration of that agreement. Conditions are very much worse now; something over twenty-five per cent of the population are on relief. The other day the mayors of many Canadian cities were in Ottawa, and most hon. members of the house know the situation that exists in those cities. In addition to having twenty-five per cent of the people on relief there is another large percentage of people who are not able to pay their taxes. As a result the cost of relief in that city-and it is not alone by any means- is falling on fewer and fewer ratepayers all the time. When the time comes to consider the renewal of the agreement I believe the only fair thing so far as the people of the community are concerned, and also so far as the creditors are concerned if they ever expect to get any principal, would be to make a straight cut of fifty per cent of the indebtedness. The property there is not worth fifty per cent of what it was worth a few years ago. It simply means that the debenture holders have made a bad investment, just as some of the people living in that city have made a bad investment, and both will have to share the tragedy that has come upon the country.
The illustration I have given in regard to the city of Swift Current applies equally well to the whole drought area. I have a similar resolution from another town out there. I need not mention the name, but I understand a copy has been sent to the minister. The resolution states that it is impossible for the ratepayers to continue to carry the burden of relief. We heard that statement so often in connection with the visit here of the mayors of the various western cities that I need not labour the point. When we have the minister here working with the Saskatchewan minister of agriculture-and I am speaking particularly of the province of Saskatchewan and that portion of the province within the drought area-who was one of the officers of his own department until a year or so ago, a gentleman of whom I am sure he as well as I have a high opinion, I am sure the difficulty will be solved as far as that may be possible.

Rehabilitation of Drought Areas
Hon. J. G. Taggart, Minister of Agriculture of Saskatchewan, has a plan which I should like to read to the committee, and which I believe will work weld in, conjunction with the plan outlined to-day by the Minister of Agriculture here. Mr. Taggart's proposition is as follows:
Divide the province into a number of small units, each comprising some eight municipalities. Into each area send a person armed with available information regarding the climate, soil, crops, finances and other records concerning the locality. This person, to be made available through the aid of the University of Saskatchewan, would confer with municipal heads and farmers of the locality, glean from them their experience, and then form a basis for immediate action.
Certain lands might have to be abandoned; others could be put to different uses; new lands might be opened up. Generally, agriculture could be reorganized and reestablished on the basis of scientific information.
You see the picture we have; the federal Minister of Agriculture operating three experimental plots in scattered portions of the drought area of the province of Saskatchewan. Those plots would consist of one township each, and all possible information would be obtained from the experiments, such information being passed on to the provincial department in Saskatchewan. Then we have a supervisor for every eight municipalities in the province who would be disseminating this information, advising the farmers, consulting with them, examining their soil, telling them what their land could be used for, telling them what kind of crops their lands are best suited for, and how they should be worked and operated. If there is any possibility of saving that country I believe this action should do it. If in addition the minister would consider the matter of debt structure in the drought stricken area, and working through the appropriate departments in conjunction with provincial authorities, would consult with the mortgage companies and others holding claims against that area and would recommend making a reduction to give encouragement to the farmers, I believe in the course of a few years those areas of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta could be reclaimed.


Robert Weir: So that I will
not omit any points which have been raised I shall take this opportunity to deal with some of the observations made by hon. members who have spoken. The problem which has confronted departments of agriculture is one which is known in one way or another to almost every person in Canada. The challenge to those who hold positions of authority is whether or not we have left un-
done anything which should have been done to alleviate the difficulties through which those people have passed. In passing may I pay a tribute, one which I believe is hardly necessary, to the fact that although during the last four years millions upon millions of dollars have been poured into that large area of Canada this is one expenditure upon which all Canadians have agreed, and against which no criticisms have been raised. But the load the country has carried in endeavouring to assist the people in that area who through no fault of their own have found themselves in these unfortunate circumstances, pales into insignificance when it is compared with the load which the people in those districts have carried. No words could describe their difficulties as emphatically as a first-hand observation of the difficulties under which they have been living. I realized that fact when last October I attended a meeting of farmers and farmers' wives held in the midst of one of the larger drought areas. One could see unmistakable evidence on the faces of those people who sat in front of me at the meeting of the trying conditions through which they had lived. The lines in their faces were sufficient evidence for any person. Despite their difficulties however, with the optimism of pioneers still in them they were building and planning in the hope that conditions would improve.
The hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell) has stated truly that all they need is something to keep up their morale, and it was with that in mind-together with other points which I did not think we would have discussed in such detail at this time, but would have waited until the bill was before the committee-that we have asked the mortgage companies of western Canada to name at least one of their ablest men to act on the advisory committee, and it is again for that reason we made a similar request of the bankers' association, and some other organizations. If this is a national problem the whole country must work in cooperation. No person realizes more than I do the difficulties which must be met; there is a part which each must play. Those people living in the areas will devote their time and I believe they will do that voluntarily because I have under my hand a summary of the offers which have been made since this project was given publicity. As these offers have been received they have been passed on to a small committee and have been listed, and following that investigations have been made to ascertain those who could best help.
The people living in the district will give their time, their labour and will make avail-

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able the land they own. Our work is to give them all the expert advice and assistance we can give them. At this point may I correct an impression which seems to be general. There is a tendency on the part of certain people to associate experts with theoretical people, and I do not believe that association is fair. The experts, so called, who will deal with this problem in both the provincial and federal departments, are not theoretical people. They are experts because they know the practical difficulties, and no people can appreciate to a greater degree than they can the great efforts, the success and the intelligence of the farmers who throughout this time have made a success of farming in those areas. The whole program has been built around those key men, because all will admit that they know more than any other people about the difficulties and the efforts which have been made towards a solution of those difficulties. Many farmers right in the worst sections of the dried' out areas have had crops and, as the hon. member for Swift Current has stated, have been able to carry on. It is almost impossible for us to understand how they have been able to do so. We have investigated the reasons for their success as compared with the lack of satisfactory results obtained by farmers around them.
Upon a number of occasions the hon. member for Swift Current expressed the hope that there would be and the belief that there should be cooperation in this matter. To entertain any possible doubt of cooperation in the matter would, it seems to me, almost amount to a criticism of my efforts. To satisfy the hon. member and other hon. members who may follow him may I say that a national advisory committee on agricultural services has been set up in each province of the Dominion of Canada. That is, in each province of Canada joint committees are interlocked. Here we may have a committee on grain, on livestock or on grasses on which there would be a representative of the province, one from the agricultural college and one from the federal Department of Agriculture. Those committees are doing investigational work in their own particular lines of agriculture. They are not acting as separate units, but act in cooperation, and will continue so to do. At the present time in the province of Saskatchewan and in the other provinces work of this very nature is being carried on. These committees do not proceed each in its own line; they meet two or three times in the year to review all available information to bear on the problems remaining to be solved. For that reason I say that in the ordinary acceptance of the term we
have not separate departments. So far as agriculture throughout the dominion is concerned we work as one body, and could not work more closely if in fact we were concentrated in one department. I have no doubt the hon. member for Swift Current had not realized just to what extent the cooperation has been exercised.


Charles Edward Bothwell: In uttering those words it was not my intention to express any criticism in that regard. It was really to set at rest some of the rumours that have been circulating and which I thought should be set at rest.


Robert Weir: That is just what I was going to say, that I had no doubt my hon. friend did not have that in mind. With reference to debts and accrued interest, we have representatives on the advisory committee, and from the very nature of the publicity which centres on a closer relationship and an even better understanding than they have now of the necessity of keeping these people free from any worry so far as possible and giving them every encouragement, it is hoped that they will be able to devote their whole energy in cooperation with all the different phases of life in Canada to the reclamation of that area where there has been such a national and such a costly calamity.
The hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown) made a point that I think was well taken when he said that we should not lead people to be too optimistic about this program; that it was all to the good to dam up water, but that the people should not be led to expect too much. I thought I had made clear in my statement the one thing that in our estimation should be given prominence in this program more than anything else, and that is: What can we do that we have not done to make it possible for these people to be self-sustaining to a greater degree than they are, and to be more thoroughly prepared if this present condition does not last, to meet drought conditions if there should be a recurrence of them. The basis of our work is a study of the people who have farmed in the district and who have made use of trees and dams and grasses and cultural methods, and then after an analysis and a summing up of what the experts so called have felt were the most important factors in each case, they will be able to place before a committee of farmers themselves in each province information that will be the basis on which all the work will be done.

Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas


James J. Donnelly: Mr. Chairman, for the last four or five years this question of the drought area in western Canada has occupied the attention of a great many people throughout the dominion. Last year I brought it to the attention of the house, and I am glad to know that at the present time the government are bringing in a bill to do what they think <ban be done in order to better conditions in what is known as the drought area in western Canada.
In order that the committee may obtain some vague idea of the importance of this question I should like to give to hon. members an idea of how large a territory is covered and what I mean when I speak of the drought area in western Canada.
In the year 1929 a small portion of the south central part of Saskatchewan, about one hundred miles square, had no crop. We had dry weather and there was a drought area consisting of a district about one hundred miles square. Since that time this drought area has gradually spread until it has reached into Manitoba and to the foothills of Alberta, the area east and west extending for four hundred miles, and north and south in a triangular shape for a- distance of 150 to 200 miles. It stretches over a large portion of what is known in western Canada as the short grass country or the open prairies. That district in years gone by has produced wealth amounting from S200.000.000 to $300,000,000 a year, but in the last few years it has been producing no crops whatever, and that has been through no fault whatever of the people living there. It has been simply 'due to the fact that there has been little or no rainfall.
Some may speak of soil drifting and all that, but the fact of the matter is that we know that if we had rain, soil drifting would not be anything to contend with, and would present no difficulty whatever. It is because we have had no rain or not sufficient rain to produce a crop in what is known as the short grass country or the open prairies.
Let me also say with the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Willis) that this district is occupied by our own Canadian people. It is open prairie, the part that was easiest to bring under cultivation, and the result was that our own Canadian people went to the open prairie and brought it under cultivation. The foreigner from central Europe is the one who went to the park areas or to what are known as the wooded areas and cleared his land in there. So I repeat that the people living in that drought section are Canadian people or of the Anglo-Saxon race. Now this section of country for the last four years before these

drought conditions came, did produce crops. This south central portion of Saskatchewan where the drought area began, for some twenty years produced crops, and good crops. It produced the best wheat that was grown in the world. It produced more wheat and better wheat than any other part of the world. I remember quite well speaking to one of our Canadian Pacific Railway officials, and referring to the line of railway running into that district and saying that it was the best paying branch line in western Canada. It produced more wealth than any other part of western Canada year after year. But when the drought arrived in 1929, then for year after year we had crop failures in that area.
Some ask, why do not the people that are in there move out and go into other districts? Let me say this. I know many of the men that went in there practically with nothing in 1908 and 1909. They took up 320 acres of land, and since then they have probably bought another 320 or 640 acres. They built good buildings, they made good homes for themselves, they fenced their land, and now they have 640 or 960 acres of land, and they have made their living by farming that land. Now they are 55 or 60 years of age, and it is pretty hard to ask these people to leave everything behind them, and get out and go into another district, perhaps to scrub land and hew out a home for themselves up there. In fact they won't do it; it is impossible to get them to do it. There are many people leaving that district, but they are chiefly those who are living on rented farms or have such large mortgages on their farms that they have very little equity in them. Some of these people are moving out, leaving the older settlers and the best settlers behind them in that dried out area.
Now as to what can be done or what should be done for these people in the drought area, there are various opinions as to the cause of present conditions. But in my opinion they are due to nothing but a lack of rainfall, the need of rain. There are many theories and many ideas as to why we have no rainfall or not sufficient rainfall. Many people say that the main thing to do is to get back to the old conditions that existed before the land was taken up or that existed when the land was homesteaded years ago. If we get back to those conditions, then problably we shall have rain again. This will mean that we will get back to having small bodies of water scattered over the country in the form of sloughs and lakes. A lot of the land will be covered with vegetation. One of the theories in connection with this drought is that there is not sufficient moisture in the land to keep

_____________Rehabilitation of Drought Areas
the air cool. The warm air from the south carries the moisture and it is precipitated when it meets the cool northern air but at the present time this air is warm also. The result is that the warm air from the south mingles with the northern air without bringing about precipitation. It is claimed that if we got back to the old conditions we would have rainfall again. That may be true but we should do whatever is possible to store up moisture in different places.
The government should use the men now in the relief camps. These men are doing practically nothing at the present time and they could be put to work in the building of dams in western Canada. This work would prove of benefit to the farmers and might bring about a change in climatic conditions. These men would be able to do work which would be of advantage to the country.
I believe the planting of trees would be of doubtful value. This section of the country is not like that referred to by the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Willis). In his part of the country trees once grew but they never grew in our part, it was wide open prairie. I know a man who planted ten or twelve acres of trees around his home as a shelter oelt. He had fifteen or twenty rows of trees but when I visited him last fall I found this shelter belt drifted in with tumbleweed and Russian thistle. The trees had all died and all he had was a dyke about fifteen feet in height all around his place. I do not think trees will bring moisture; I think moisture brings trees. I have seen other places where 25.000 to 50.000 trees have been planted, but in practically every case all the trees have died from the drought of the last five years. It may be all right to spend a lot of money on the planting of trees but in my opinion it will prove of doubtful value.
I agree with the hon. member for Souris that it would be of benefit if some sort of grass could be got to grow. However we have found it very difficult to get crested wheat grass or the other grasses like brome or sweet clover to take root. I have known of cases where some of these grasses have been planted for three years in succession but there was not a single spear to be seen. It does not blow or drift away, it simply will not grow as there is not enough moisture. If you can get a grass of this type to grow, well and good, but the difficulty is to get it to take root.
I believe that much of the dried out areas will have to be left in an uncultivated condition. When we bring all our land under cultivation and have our summer fallows,
great heat is developed and the evaporation is more rapid. We need more moisture than we have at the present time. Last year up until the end of June we thought we had a crop but there was no rain after that time and the result was a crop failure.
I suggest to the minister that the municipalities should be put in charge of this work. The people could be given work and thus taken off the dole. Plant trees if you like, build dams or do anything, but give work to these people. The closer the government can get to the people through the municipal authorities, the better it will be. Our municipalities have absolutely no money with which to grant relief. When they do grant any they simply sign notes and pass on the obligation to the provincial government. The provincial governments have no money and they are forced to borrow from the dominion government. The federal government will have to finance this work and if these people can be provided with employment it will improve their morale to a great extent.
The provincial governments should cooperate with the dominion government. The provincial ministers of agriculture could give assistance while the departments of telephones and schools are interested in this class of work. They should be able to cooperate with the government and assist in many ways. I contend that the main problem of financing this work rests with the dominion government. This problem which faces western Canada is the most important problem facing the country at the present time. I believe it is as important as our railway problem. There are two or three hundred thousand people in these areas who are solely dependent upon their crops. Anything that can be done to help these people should be done. I believe that in years to come we will again have sufficient rainfall; we had it in the past and we will probably have it again in the future. In the meantime it is the duty of all governments, municipal, provincial and federal, to cooperate with each other to relieve the condition in which these people find themselves.


Mr. MULLINS:: Mr. Chairman, I have listened to the various speeches made this afternoon, especially those by the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell) the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown), and the hon. member for Souris (Mr. Willis). I am inclined to agree with the hon. member for Lisgar. He goes back to the days of experience, and experience is what is needed at a time like this. My sympathy goes out to the
Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas

people in and around Swift Current. It does not seem like so many years ago-in reality it goes back many years-when they undertook to grow grain in that district, but their efforts were an absolute failure. I remember Sir Lester Kaye who owned 10,000 acres around Swift Current. He imported water carts and undertook to water the grain. Any old timer from that district wild remember the circumstances quite well. There was no rain there; it never rained, and they imported rain makers and tried in every way to get water because it was impossible to grow grain. My sympathy goes out therefore to those people who went there to farm. I remember the drought referred to by the hon. member for Lisgar-the drought that occurred in 1885. It was a serious one and the pioneers at that time suffered and bore it; they fought it. But I say for the benefit of this house that this is the end of the seven years; we have had the seven years, and I do not think that next year you will want any water conservation. I believe that next year we shall have two crops in one. We have had two crops in one in that western country, and I can tell you that there is all the difference in the world between having rain on the land and not having it. Soil drifting? Yes; but give us a year such as we are looking for this year and, with the faith of the old pioneers in that western country, we shall come back in the west and we shall not need to ask the minister for any expenditures for the conservation of water because we shall have enough of it. We have not suffered so much in the constituency I represent though we have had years when we could have done with more water; we should like to have had more rain. However, my sympathy goes out to the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Both-well), because I do not believe that is a farming country. It is on the tail end of the chinook belt. I have seen the grass dry, I have seen it cured in June, and I do not know for the life of me how any man could ever farm on that land.


Mr. BOTH WELL:: The hon. member knows that that area has produced the best wheat and the best crops of any place in the west in different years.


Henry Alfred Mullins: It has; but may I ask the hon. member how many years in ten.


Charles Edward Bothwell: In a sufficient number
of years to enable the people to build as fine homes as can be found in the west.


Henry Alfred Mullins: Yes; I agree with the
hon. member that if that land gets moisture you can grow a crop and it does grow good

grain. But it is susceptible to the chinook belt and the hon. gentleman knows as well as I do that it is on the tail end of that belt that comes from the mountains and peters out around Swift Current. I repeat, however, that my sympathy goes out to these people, and anything the minister can do to help them I will support. I would agree to the expenditure of any money to help them. The hon. gentleman will remember that in Medicine Hat-we had a rain maker named Hatfield. He tried to make rain and he took a lot of money. In the west we will try any new thing, any old scheme or any old political party they want to form. We have a new one in Alberta, and we are susceptible to any kind of political party that comes forward in that country. Well, they brought a rain maker named Hatfield-


Jean-François Pouliot: Does it include social
legislation?


Henry Alfred Mullins: -and he took a lot of
money from the people of Medicine Hat. I do not think he was in the Swift Current district but he operated at Medicine Hat and he was a failure, just like the man they imported named Sapiro. All these novices have been imported in the west, but the spirit of the old pioneer will prevail. My hon. friend is one of the pioneers and I always like to shake hands with him. We have faced the elements, we have fought drought before, and we have asked nothing from anybody. I say therefore that the same spirit will bring that country back. I would not waste any money unnecessarily until we see what the conditions really are. I have lived out there and I believe that this will be a wet year.


Mr. WEIR (Macdonald):: I am sure the
minister will be highly pleased with the general acceptance of his proposal. This problem of the drought area in the west is now recognized definitely as a national one; everyone agrees that it is. If there is any place where national planning should be put to the test-and I say this particularly to my hon. friends in the corner-it is in this drought area, because after all the picture presented here this afternoon by hon. members living in that area must have demonstrated conclusively to others who are not as familiar with the conditions that exist there how grave the problem is. Fortunately for myself, I am just on the edge of the drought area, but my particular concern now is whether or not that area will extend and take in a larger territory which will include at least a part of my constituency. I was very much

Rehabilitation of Drought Areas
interested in the historical sketch given this afternoon by the hon. member for Lisgar with regard to his early experience in Manitoba. I have heard many of the older people of the province relate similar experiences, and the strange fact is that we can have such extremely different conditions in one province, varying from one district to another. I have mentioned before the incident of part of an area in my constituency which I should judge was not more than 150 miles away from the dryest part of Manitoba, where they have suffered for several years since this dry period started by having flood conditions, and drainage was a problem with them. It is difficult to appreciate the fact that these two conditions exist in one province, but it is a fact.
I do not propose to say much at this time seeing that the matter has been well covered by those who have already spoken, but I would emphasize again the condition that may affect the adjoining areas or the condition that may be created should the drought area extend. No doubt the minister appreciates the possibilities of the extension of the drought area, and I think it is time we considered taking steps to prevent encroachment upon further territory. I do not know whether anything is contemplated in this resolution in that regard, but I should hope that something will be done to encourage people to adopt sound farming policies in those areas where experience has shown that such policies have not been in force. I think it is important to bear that fact in mind, and the only thing I would urge on the minister in that regard is the lending of some assistance to procure grass seed and to take care of publicity work with respect to strip farming and corn growing. I think that very special consideration should be given to that part of Manitoba located within the drought area to try to establish it as the corn belt of the province. There is a possibility in that area for com growing that would be of particular benefit not only to the district itself, but to the rest of the province. Corn has been successfully grown in Manitoba and that area is especially well suited to it.
I was pleased to note this afternoon, when the minister was discussing this measure, his reference to the information that the department had gathered and the people that he hoped would interest themselves in the rehabilitation of this drought area. There is in this district such a large interest on the part of so many different classes that it is imperative we get the wholehearted cooperation and support of as many people as possible. The farmers themselves are the first ones who
have a big stake there; then there are the business people who are established in the towns, and in addition there are the railways. There are also involved insurance companies, mortgage companies and so forth. Therefore it is necessary to bring together under any organization that is going to carry out a policy of rehabilitating this drought area just as many people as possible.
I should like to refer in passing to some publicity activity that has been going on in Manitoba; I think the organization that has been doing this work is called the Conservation League. I should also like in passing to emphasize what the hon. member for Swift Current mentioned. The indebtedness of the farmers themselves in that drought area is such that their condition will be so discouraging that they will not be able to face the future with any degree of confidence unless measures are taken to give them some assurance that they will be placed in a position to earn a livelihood for their declining years. If that is not done, I doubt very much whether we can expect them to put forth their best endeavours in connection with any policy of rehabilitation.
That is not the only problem. Even if we are successful in years to come in rehabilitating that area, we must still deal with the question how these people are to be sustained in the interval. We cannot expect immediate results, although we may hope for them, so the problem is one that will require the best efforts of everyone interested and the cooperation not only of this Department of Agriculture, but also of the provincial departments of agriculture, the business people interested, the municipalities and the local residents. I hope some means may be found whereby we can secure the wholehearted cooperation of the individual farmers themselves in that area. I believe that will be secured for the most part, one danger being that if we should have a period of greater precipitation with improved crop conditions, it may be just a little difficult to carry out the rplans which may be prepared and intended to be used as a means of permanently rehabilitating the area. History has shown that drought conditions have recurred time and time again, and the fact that we may get a good crop for a few seasons may make us forget the hardships through which we have passed.
I feel satisfied that we can do a good deal in connection with this scheme, and I am pleased that the minister has seen his way clear to introduce this measure now, recognizing that the problem is a national one.
2618	COMMONS
Rehabilitation oj Drought Areas_____


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: As I Lad an opportunity of discussing this matter about ten days ago on the minister's estimates, it will not be necessary for me to say much now, particularly as we shall have another opportunity on the second reading of the bUl. Both before and since I last spoke, I have been reading up the story of the deserts in Arabia and Palestine. When we were young and going to school, if the word "desert" came up we always thought of the Sahara. Now we know something of the work of archeologists in Palestine, hoiw they have been exhuming cities that have been, buried there, where once fertile land is now covered by sand. Three thousand years afterwards this has been dug up and exposed to .the world. I think this was about the time when King Tut was entombed. This shows us that deserts grow. Like .the last speaker, I thought I lived on the edge of the drought area in Saskatchewan and I did so for over forty years, but the last six years have revealed to us that a desert really grows. It extends over the adjoining area until the whole country may be involved in it unless some action of .an effective nature is taken. To my mind, there is no secret about the matter. There was no drifting of soil when we went into that section half a century ago except along the buffalo trails or cart trails where the sod was broken. What we have to do is .to restore the grass covering; that is an immense job, but it must be done. The minister is on the right track and he has two good officers who have lived for a time in that area. There is Doctor Kirk who homesteaded or purchased land there, and then there is Doctor Booth who was engaged- in extension work for two or three years about the time the war broke out and who is well equipped in that and other respects.
I conclude-as it is just six o'clock-by wishing the minister well in this great undertaking. If my blessing is any good to him, why, I bestow it upon him. This work of rehabilitation on the wind swept prairie is no week end holiday, no midsummer pastime, and I think he knows it. It is the biggest thing of its kind undertaken in my time in .the Dominion of Canada.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Weir (Melfort) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 55, to provide for the rehabilitation of drought and soil drifting areas in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, April 11, 1935