1935-07-05

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: I should like to direct a question to the Minister of National Defence or to the Prime Minister-I am sorry I was not able to give notice of it-in response to telegrams that I have received this morning with respect to the movement of the men at Regina back to British Columbia. The question is this: Is the government prepared to cooperate with the government of the province of British Columbia to ensure that only those properly domiciled in British Columbia will be returned to that province? Also, will the Minister of National Defence take steps to see that those who were properly in the camps will 'not be returned to the city of Vancouver?


Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Minister of National Defence):: I shall be very ready to take into consideration the request of the hon. member. It is a little difficult at the
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present moment to make any definite reply because the movement of these men to whom the hon. member refers is at present being carried out by the premier of Saskatchewan.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I want to make it very definite that there is no objection to -returning to British Columbia those who are properly domiciled in that province, but we know very well that not twenty-five per cent of those in the camps and properly domiciled in the province of British Columbia belong to the active strikers.


Grote Stirling: Yes, I think I fully realize that point.



TRADE AGREEMENT WITH UNITED STATES

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Leader of the Opposition):: Mr. Speaker, yesterday this house -passed a bill approving a treaty between Poland and Canada which had the effect of reducing duties on some of the commodities of each of these countries. May I aisk the Pri-me Minister whether further progress has been made towards effecting such an arrangement with the United States, an arrangement that will have the effect of reducing the duties, on each side, on certain commodities, something that is greatly to be desired?


Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, .1 have nothing to add to what I said the other day. If any finality had been reached I would have advised the house, but- no final conclusion has been reached with respect to any of the terms that would enable me to make a statement to the house.
BORSTAL SYSTEM On the orders of the day:


Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Minister of Justice):: Mr. Speaker, some little time ago
my hon. friend from Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe) asked me if any statement would be made in the house in regard to the establishment of the Borstal system in the penitentiaries of the Dominion of Canada. I have now obtained what is called an interim report on the subject from the superintendent of penitentiaries together with a number of appendices,^ some five or six, which if the house will permit me I would like to put on Hansard for the benefit of the members.
The superintendent of the penitentiaries visited Great Britain and returned about the first of June. During his visit there he carefully examined many of the leading Borstal
[Mr Stirling.]
institutions. Those particularly noted in the report are the ones at Wormwood Scrubs, Wandsworth, Feltham, Portland, Rochester, Lowdham Grange. Those are the leading Borstal institutions in England at the present time.
In his interim report the superintendent sets out in a good deal of detail his observations, and I would particularly draw to the attention of the house the statement contained in appendix "B" which sets out the youthful papulation in Canadian penitentiaries as of the seventeenth day of June last. In Kingston penitentiary there are 42 under the age of 21 years; in St. Vincent de Paul, 92; in Dorchester penitentiary, 46; in Manitoba penitentiary, 33; in British Columbia penitentiary, 19; in Saskatchewan penitentiary, 22; in Collin's Bay penitentiary, 12. Of course the house is aware that by far the larger portion of youthful offenders in Canada are not in the federal institutions but are in provincial reformatories, prisons, gaols, homes and various other provincial institutions.
The superintendent reports that the Borstal system may be introduced into Canadian penitentiaries within the next sixty days. There will be no legislation necessary to achieve this end. The Penitentiary Act is already broad enough to provide for it. There is sufficient in the penitentiary vote to cover all the expenses of instituting -that system in the Canadian penitentiaries-. Some additional staff will be -required as is set out in the report and it will be necessary to construct some additional buildings but in the opinion of the superintendent this system can be made applicable to the Canadian penitentiaries within sixty days and be based almost precisely upon the system now in effect in Great Britain. In Great Britain the prison population is under a single government, the prison commission. They do not have provincial institutions to deal with such as we have. There are many different prisons and the report gives a fairly good idea of what is accomplished in this respect in the leading Borstal institutions in Great Britain. The government is prepared to adopt the Borstal system in Canadian penitentiaries for the youthful prisoners. I ask leave of the house to have this report placed on Hansard for the use of hon. members. The report reads:
Memorandum to the Deputy Minister of Justice
Re: Interim report on the Borstal system of England.
Re: Convicts under twenty-one years of age in Canadian penitentiaries.
1. By direction, the undersigned proceeded to England for the purpose of making an

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exhaustive study of the Borstal system, with a view to advising the government as to how best it could be tried out in Canada, arriving in England on Sunday, April 30, 1935, and embarking for Canada on Saturday, May 25, 1935.
2.	The undersigned reported to the home office on Monday, May 1st, and here begs to express his deep appreciation of the courtesies extended to him by the Home Secretary, the chairman of the prison commission, the prison commissioners, and the governors and officers of Borstal institutions and prisons.
3.	Commissioner A. Paterson, M.C., devoted some time to the undersigned, and apparently came to the conclusion that the undersigned had a sufficiently wide knowledge of the Borstal system that a program might be immediately arranged for visits to Borstal institutions, with a view to making an exhaustive study of the management and training of the young prisoners who are the inmates of Borstal institutions.
4.	The program arranged carried the undersigned through all stages, from the institution of reception to the institution where the greatest amount of liberty is permitted to the Borstal inmate, and included the following institutions:
Wormwood Scrubs (Reception and classification centre);
Wandsworth (Institution for least hopeful cases: disciplinary institution);
Feltham (Institution for treatment of apparent defectives, mental and physical);
Portland (Institution for the training of amenable but more sophisticated "lads.");
Rochester (Institution for amenable, less sophisticated lads);
Lowdham Grange (Open prison system for training of hopeful cases transferred from other Borstal institutions).
5.	"Borstal training is a combination1 of mental, moral, physical and industrial training of a strenuous kind. It is not a fixed system, but like other progressive systems, is in a state of flux." Vide The Modern English Prison, page 181.
6.	The undersigned is of the opinion that similar training and treatment can be put into effect for convicts under twenty-one years of age in Canadian penitentiaries, and recommends same (see appendix "A").
7.	It is further recommended:
(a)	That for the putting into effect of the training and treatment hereinbefore mentioned, all convicts under twenty-one years of age should be segregated into one building, or segregateable part of an existing building, in each penitentiary.
(b)	That the classification board of each penitentiary, with the augmentations hereinafter referred to, would proced to select the youthful convicts who would be amenable to, and would benefit by, the type of training hereinbefore referred to (see appendix "B").
8.	It is also recommended that each penitentiary staff should be augmented by the appointment of one specially selected person for each thirty youthful convicts confined in each penitentiary, with a minimum of two such persons in any one penitentiary. Persons so appointed might be called supervisors and assistant supervisors of youthful convicts, and would have duties corresponding to housemasters and assistant housemasters in Borstal
institutions, i.e., the supervision, management, treatment and training of youthful convicts outside of working hours. Such persons would be in addition to, and distinct from, custodial officers (see appendix "C").
9.	It is respectfully submitted that accommodation is either available, or can be made available in a comparatively short time, in each penitentiary, for the segregation of youthful convicts, each penitentiary being considered an institution of reception and classification, similar to Wormwood Scrubs in England (see appendix "D").
10.	When discharged from a Borstal institution, an inmate is on licence to the Borstal Association for the unexpired portion of his sentence, and a further year in addition. The prison commission of England states that "The Borstal Association represents one-half of the Borstal system." The Borstal Association is a private body, and is made up of interested persons will) are acceptable to the Home Office, there being approximately one member of the association for each lad actually on licence.
11.	If such an organization were brought into being in Canada, the membership would be limited to those persons who would agree to act as the adviser and confidant of a youthful convict during the portion of his sentence that he was under conditional release (see appendix "B").
12.	It is respectfully submitted that the aforementioned treatment, training, classification and aid after release from an institution could be brought into effect without any amendment to presently existing legislation, or any augmentation of the penitentiary vote for the year 1935-36.
13.	It is respectfully submitted that whereas the treatment of youthful convicts in England, as now carried out under the Borstal system, was definitely considered in 1894, and whereas the Borstal Act was not passed until 1908, and that whereas innumerable changes were made in the Borstal system between 1914 and 1919, and that still more drastic changes were made between 1921 and 1935, the inauguration of this type of treatment and training should not be unduly rushed in Canada, but should be developed step by step, only as rapidly as the staffs and youthful convicts can absorb well-thought-out changes. Insufficiently considered, or too rapidly brought about, changes, might work to the lasting detriment of the objects intended to be obtained.
14.	It is respectfully submitted that, in view of the experimental work carried out in England and the information so generously made available to Canada, that good results may be obtained and a scheme be put into well running condition in the number of years equivalent to the number of decades that the matter has been under consideration, experimentation and operation in England.
Respectfully submitted.
D. M. Ormond,
Superintendent.
Appendix "A"
Outline of Proposed Training for Youthful Convicts in Penitentiaries
1.	Broadly speaking, the great majority of youthful convicts find themselves in Penitentiaries due to a weakness of inhibition arising
Borstal System

from a lack of early training at koine, which has not been fully assisted by the church, the school, and social organizations interested in the welfare of youths. The majority of these youths have been guilty of crimes of acquisitiveness:-theft, burglary, housebreaking, and embezzlement. Less than one-quarter of them have been guilty of crimes of passion, i.e., sexual offences, indecencies, assaults, and crimes of violence.
2.	Largely on account of the reasons above-mentioned, and the acquisitivness of their natures, these youths have displayed an utter disregard for the rights of property. It is therefore the duty of the penitentiary service to as far as possible correct existing conditions.
3.	In a large number of cases, these youths have been guilty of offences, and have been released on suspended sentence; a repetition of the offence, or a new offence, has caused them to serve terms in industrial schools, reformatories or jails, and the courts have finally decided that a long term of confinement in a penitentiary is necessary. There are youths, however, whose first known offences are of so heinous a character that the public sense of decency demands that they be confined over a considerable period, the courts deeming it inadvisable to commit them for a short term of imprisonment, believing that a 'long period is required for an all-round programme of training.
4.	It is the duty of the penitentiary to make an assay of the youth, in an effort to discover his possibilities and to develop them as far as the limitations of an institution will allow. It is platitudinous to state that reformation must begin with the youth himself. The institution can only provide him with the opportunities and assistance in bringing about a change of outlook and a better standard of morals and ethics.
5.	The management of youthful convicts is an interesting and fascinating duty, but should only be attempted by optimistic persons who are not discouraged by failing to obtain the results aimed at. The training of youthful convicts is of necessity based on the belief that there is a very large amount of what is known as "good" in each youth, and that if the proper chords are touched, that favourable reactions will follow. The supervisors of youths require a genius for understanding and exceptional gifts of leadership.
6.	The following excerpts are taken from "The Principles of the Borstal System," published by the prison commission. Home Office, 1932:
" . . . The task is not to break or knead him into shape, but to stimulate some Dower within to regulate conduct aright, to insinuate a preference for the good and the dean, to make him want to use his life well, so that he himself and not others will save him from waste. It becomes necessary to study the individual lad. to discover his trend and his possibility, and to infect him with some idea of life which will germinate and produce a character, controlling desire, and shaping conduct to some more glorious end than mere satisfaction or acquisition.
A Borstal institution is not an end in itself, but a laborious means to the reformation of offenders between the ages of sixteen and twenty one. The training necessary for a change at that age cannot be eompdetely effected during the two or three years spent within the 
walls. The lad leaves his institution robust in figure and of confident mien, sometimes a shade too confident, but no one knows whether he is reformed, for no man may call himself a swimmer until his feet are off the ground."
7.	The following excerpt is taken from "The Modern English Prison," page 185:
"The routing of the institution is that of an active day of 15 hours, beginning with physical training, continuing with eight hours work in workshop or outdoor party, and ending with 1J>
or 2 hours of school or study. To place first things first, the work a lad does during his training falls into three stages. First wriith the cleaners, doing the necessary domestic work: then, while awaiting a vacancy in the trade party to which he has been allotted, he may have a spell of heavy outdoor work with a labouring party, which is good both for his character and his physique. Finally, he passes into a trade party. In the workshops good class work in carpentry and metal work is carried out with power machinery, and employment is also found at tailoring, shoemaking, cooking (especially training for sea cooks), gardening, farming (some institutions have farms of considerable size, all have some land and stock), various adjuncts of the building trades, and other minor trades. . ."
8.	The foregoing is in effect in penitentiaries, with the exception of the study period at the end of the day abovementioned. The appointment of supervising officers will meet this requirement, for these officers would be principally employed in work with the youths from the closing of the shop in the afternoon up to 8.45 in the evening.
9.	Equipment for study and gymnasia training can readily be arranged in the corridors of those places segregated for the confinement of youthful convicts.
10.	A widely varied syllabus of education presently exists, which provides elementary education for the exceptionally backward and correspondence courses for the more advanced, and can readily be adapted to include branches of education not presently touched.
11.	The separate training of youthful convicts should include at least one hour per day of physical training, in addition to volunteer evening classes in gymnastics, the intention being not only to improve physical fitness, but to teach the correlation of mind and body. The physical side might be developed to include certain recreational activities, either as a part of, or in addition to, the regular physical training.
Appendix "B"
Segregation and Classification
1.	All youthful convicts in penitentiaries at the present time are in either of the following classifications:
(A) Convicts having no previous conviction, under twenty-one years of age;
(C) The large intermediate class, having had experience in reformatories, gaols or penitentiaries.
2.	It is submitted that all youthful convicts should be segregated into one building, or a segregateable part of the building, in each penitentiary, for the purposes of observation and re-classification, so that selection may be made of those for whom it is considered treatment as youthful convicts would have beneficial results.

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3.	On June 17, 1935, there were 266 youthful convicts in Canadian penitentiaries, confined as follows:
Kingston penitentiary	 42
St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary.. ..	92
Dorchester penitentiary	 46
Manitoba penitentiary	 33
British Columbia penitentiary	 19
Saskatchewan penitentiary	 22
Collin's Bay penitentiary	 12
4.	It is submitted that instructions should be sent to each warden, outlining the steps to be taken for the classification or re-classification of each youthful convict. The first classification would be carried out by the existing classification board, which would be augmented at the earliest possible time by the officers referred to in appendix "C," but no delay in the elementary classification need be caused by a delay in filling the new positions recommended.
5.	Suitable questionnaires can be sent out to the parents or nearest relatives of the youth, to the church, school, and convicting magistrate or judge, and to any other person whom it is considered would be in a position to supply useful information. This is the normal method of commencing case-work for institutions and welfare bodies.
6.	In those cases in which the classification
board considered that special examinations would be required, in order to classify the youth, such special examinations could be carried out by physicians, surgeons, or psychiatrists, according to the requirements of the case.	.
7.	After all available information has been procured concerning each youth, decision would be made as to whether or not he would continue with the "youthful convict" group, or be returned to "A" or "C" classification.
8.	In anticipation of the developments presently under consideration, the Laval buildings at St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary, and Collin's Bay penitentiary, were commenced, and construction is being pressed forward.
9.	The Laval buildings at St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary will provide employment for youthful convicts for some years to come. Within the next twelve months, the work at Collin's Bay penitentiary will be sufficiently far advanced to utilize it entirely for the segregation of youthful convicts from Ontario, and, if necessary, the maritime provinces.
10.	As an indication of the lines which may be followed in making the classification, the following is quoted from "The Principles ot the Borstal System," published by the prison commission, Home Office, 1932, chapter IV:
" It may be maintained that, as no two lads are the same, only a policy of separate confinement can provide a perfect system of classification. This reductio ad absurdum shall not, however, deter us from proceeding with as sensible a scheme as we can devise. The first purpose of classification is positive, and consists in putting a lad in such a milieu as is likely to draw out what is best in him. Ideally, therefore, each Borstal lad should be drafted to a group of honest and intelligent lads, to whose level he would wish to aspire. This by the nature of things, is impossible; there are too many rogues and not enough honest lads. For this reason the courts rightly hesitate before committing a first
offender to a Borstal institution. But it is possible within rather narrow limits, in assigning a lad to an institution or a house or group, to put him in a place where there is someone or something that will stimulate the better side of him. The second purpose of classification,	and it should	always be keptin the second place, is the avoidance of contamination.	One frvil	spirit	can	poison thetone of a whole house, and every Borstal officer is keen to watch the effect of one lad upon the others.	A clique	may	form	whose influence on each member is undoubtedly evil. Such a clique will be scatered among different houses or institutions. Transfer and reclassification are	ready to	our hand	to preventcorruption, and should be employed without hesitation where the reasonable prospect of a risk has been established by those who have observed. The community must be protected even at the cost of disturbance to the individual.	_
The advantages attaching to the system of progresive grades which has grown up have already been outlined. The history, however, of every such system points to certain dangers against which we must guard. As time passes, each grade tends to be more easily attained, each privilege more easily won, till what was once a concession is acclaimed as a right, and the lad who is really remaining stationary is found to be proceeding automatically from the bottom to the top. Steps must repeatedly be taken to ensure the difficulty of ascent, so that the minimum of promotion may reward a maximum of effort. This can be done by emphasizing the responsibilities rather than the privileges associated with each grade, and by a merciless reduction when these responsibilities are not fulfilled. Each grade carries a lad a little further towards freedom. He is practising his wings, developing his power of choice between right and wrong. This is a more difficult life than that of confinement and repression. He must show that he justifies the trust and is indeed growing more fit for freedom. If he fails, he must return to the lower order where it is easy to be good, and wait a little while before taking a step forward again towards liberty. Further, we must scrutinize very closely the claim of the lad for promotion. Let it not come to him. Lay rather the onus on him to show that he has stretched himself to reach it.
Promotion there must be, leaders must be chosen. These are necessary and indeed valuable factors in the system. It is, however, necessary to guard lest a little authority may overbalance a lad, and he may be so convinced of his own importance as to lose proportion, and think that on discharge he will still be a leader, wearing badges of distinction known to all. This is a grave disservice to the lad, for never does he need humility so much as when he leaves the institution and re-enters a world whose only memory of him is adverse. Let, therefore, promotion bring responsibility and balance, steadying the lad and not inflating him, teaching him to be free and selfreliant, but not to be cocksure."
Appendix "C"
Augmentation of Penitentiary Staffs
1.	In the English prison service, as in the Canadian penitentiary service, the staff consists of superior and subordinate officers. In
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England the superior officers are appointed by the secretary of state; in Canada, these officers are appointed by the governor in council. In England the subordinate officers are appointed by the prison commissioners; in Canada they are appointed by the superintendent of penitentiaries, in consultation with the inspectors, after having received recommendations from the wardens of pentientiaries.
2.	It is submitted that the introduction of separate training for youthful convicts would require the creation of new positions in the penitentiary service, the duties of which would be similar to those performed by housemasters and assistant housemasters in the Borstal institutions of the prison service of England.
3.	It is submitted that, if authorized, the new positions might be called, "supervisor" and "assistant supervisor" until such time as a shorter or more appropriate descriptive name for each position is decided upon.
4.	It is submitted that these positions should be graded as coming within the classification of superior officers, the appointment to the position of supervisor being made by the governor in council, and the appointment to the position of assistant supervisor to be made by the superintendent of penitentiaries, after consultation with persons outside of the penitentiary service. It is considered that the position of supervisor should be filled by promotion from assistant supervisor.
5.	The duties of supervising officers, would be entirely in connection with the management, training and treatment of youthful convicts, particularly during the periods outside of hours set aside for labour, (see appendix "A").
6.	A study of staff requirements indicates that there should be one supervising officer for each 30, or part of 30, youthful convicts, and that not less than two of these officers should be employed in each institution, even when there are less than thirty youthful convicts confined in the institution.
7; The persons selected to fill the supervisory positions require to be men of good character, good education, even temperament, optimistic nature, posessed of good common sense, untiring patience, athletic, and having a wide experience in dealing with men. The hours of duty would be long, broken, and making heavy demands on the physical and mental capacities of the supervisory officers.
8.	The rate of pay for these positions may be left for the present, but it is considered that it should be approximately that of chief trade instructor for a supervisor, and that of chief keeper for an asistant supervisor.
9.	In the initial stages, the subordinate officers including trade instructors, doing duty with the youthful convicts, could be specially selected from existing staffs, and would be 'pven a special course of training before being assigned to these duties.
10.	The matter of the creation of the positions of matrons would come up for consideration after the separate training had been inaugurated and further^ experience had been gained.
11.	If the positions of supervisors should be decided upon, it would be necessary to assemble the officers appointed _ at some central point for a period of intensive training.
Appendix "D"
Buildings and Accommodation
1.	"The principles of the Borstal system," published by the prison commission, home office, 1932. commencing at the bottom of page 20, reads as follows:

"The Borstal system has no merit apart from the Borstal staff. It is men and not buildings who will change the hearts and ways of misguided lads. Better an institution that consists of two log huts in swamp or desert, with a staff devoted to their task, than a model block of buildings, equipped without thought of economy, whose staff is solely concerned with thoughts of pay and promotion. The foundations of the Borstal system are first the recruitment of the right men, then their proper training, and finally their full cooperation with one another in an atmosphere of freedom and mutual understanding."
2.	The prison commission of England strongly believes in the foregoing, and has adhered to the policy throughout the developments of the Borstal system in England.
3.	It was not until the year 1930 that the experiment at Lowdham Grange was commenced, this being the first and only Borstal institution not surrounded by a high boundary wall.
4.	Lowdham Grange houses only the selected lads, who are considered to be the most hopeful cases, for whom the full period of training will probably not prove necessarv (vide 'The Modern English Prison," page 180).
5.	In Wormwood Scrubs, the Borstal lads are confined within the same boundarv wall, but in a separate building from short term prisoners and prisoners held on remand.
6.	The Borstal buildings form a part of Wandsworth prison. Feltham is an old reformatory building converted to use as a Borstal institution. Rochester and Portland were both convict prisons.
7.	When making observations on the question of walls, bars on the windows, and other security measures, the undersigned was reminded that the great public schools of England are enclosed within high walls, with broken glass on the top, and that the windows are barred, these precautions being considered reasonable and necessary to assist in the management of the high-spirited and youthful students, and that there does not appear to be any reason why similar arrangements should not be made when controlling youths who have been proven to be delinquent.
Kingston Penitentiary
8.	On this date there are 42 convicts in Kingston penitentiary under twenty-one years of age. These could very aceptably be accommodated in the old prison for women, presently utilized for the confinement of selected convicts who are receiving special treatment.
9.	Presently before the department is a recommendation to segregate "C" corridor of Kingston penitentiary for the purpose of housing the most unsatisfactory type of convict in that institution. If that is put into effect, it would leave available the east cell block, which might be used for the treatment and segregation of specially selected convicts over twenty-one years of age, or. in the alternative, it might be utilized for the segregation and treatment of youthful convicts.
10.	By putting up a brick wall, in the yard a subdivision could readily be arranged in which youthful convicts could carry out their exercises out of view of the other convicts.
11.	These youthful convicts could be employed m separate shops, or parts of shops partitioned off from the adult convicts, arrangements being
to pass them to and -from work at different hours from those of the older convicts.

Borstal System
St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary
12.	In St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary there is existing a cell block containing 104 cells, in which the 92 youthful convicts in that institution could presently be segregated for classification and study purposes. Arrangements to proceed to and from work in shops or gangs could be made in a manner simliar to that recommended for Kingston penitentiary.
Dorchester penitentiary
13.	There are 46 convicts under twenty-one years of age in Dorchester penitentiary. One corridor of the north wing could be readily segregated for the confinement of youthful convicts. It would only require the opening of a door from this corridor into the prison yard, and the erection of a short wall, to make a self-contained exercise-ground for the youthful convicts.
Manitoba penitentiary
14.	There are presently 33 convicts under twenty-one years of age in Manitoba penitentiary. The south side of the east wing could be immediately put aside for the accommodation of youthful convicts. The rearrangement of the penitentiary yard to provide separate exercise-grounds for convicts is presently under consideration. One of the segregation areas could be specially retained for the exercise of youthful convicts.
British Columbia penitentiary
15.	On this date there are 19 youthful convicts in British Columbia penitentiary. The north side of the east wing in this penitentiary could be set aside for the accommodation of youthful convicts, and one of the large lawns could be set aside for exercise-grounds. Arrangements could be made to have work carried out to meet the situation.
Saskatchewan penitentiary
16.	There are on this date 22 convicts in Saskatchewan penitentiary under twenty-one years of age. The north side of the east wing of this penitentiary could be segregated for the confinement of youthful convicts, with a large exercise-ground immediately adjacent thereto, which would be out of sight and out of hearing of other convicts.
Collin's Bay penitentiary
17.	This institution should eventually take all youthful convicts received in Ontario, but until such time as the construction of the cell blocks and the wall is further advanced, it is not considered that youthful convicts should be transferred to this institution. At the present moment there are only 12 convicts under the age of twenty-one years in Collin's Bay penitentiary. Any of these convicts having more than three months to serve might be transferred back to Kingston penitentiary until the dates of their release.
18.	The undersigned fully realizes that certain person interesting themselves in the introduction of the Borstal system into Canadian penitentiaries will publicly express strong protests against such steps being taken or considered, and will advocate the immediate purchase of new lands and the immediate erection of new buildings by contract. Such protests and recommendations could be considered, but
in any event, it would be twelve to eighteen months before land could be purchased and buildings erected, whereas the scheme of segregation outlined above can be put into effect within sixty days of the receipt of instructions to d'o so, and would in any event be necessary during the period of classification of youthful convicts and the selection of those whom it was considered would receive benefit from the type of treatment recommended.
Appendix "E"
Re: Conditional Release and Aid after Discharge.
Re: Borstal Association.
1.	The Borstal Association is a semi-official body, acting under the presidency of the home secretary and an executive committee, with central office in London, and approximately one associate for each lad released from a Borstal institution, the associate acting as adviser, confidant, big brother, and friend to the lad during the continuance of the licence under which he is released.
2.	The parents of a lad, or a friend, acceptable to the home secretary, may be, or act as, the associate for the lad, but in those cases in which the home surroundings are unsatisfactory, or the lad has no relatives, an associate is found for him.
3.	When an associate is selected, he is called upon to interest himself in the Had, and to give him advise, and also "to act in two capacities, the reconciliation of which requires a good deal of tact-first as friend and adviser, then as "policeman": and even the first of these needs boundless sympathy and understanding, for firmness must he combined with persistent patience if the feet of a wayward youth, too apt to throw up an uncongenial job or resent the hard word of a foreman, are to be kept firmly along the narrow path of hard work and right living."
4.	During the period which a lad is on licence, he is required to keep in close touch with the associate to whom he is attached, changing neither work nor residence without his consent. The lad looks to his associate for help in finding employment, and for a wise means of spending leisure, and in turn receives encouragement and a bracing word when good resolutions begin to wane.
5.	The associate reports to the association at least once a month on the progress of the lad. Should there be definite signs of a relapse, an effort is made bo direct the lad in the right path, but should this fail, the associate immediately reports to the prison commissioners, who cause the lad's licence to be revoked and he is taken to a special block at Wandsworth prison for further training and treatment.
6.	At Wandsworth, the conditions are substantially those of prison life. The purpose is not to give further Borstal training, but to make it clear to the lad that he has been a fool and the way of the transgressor is hard, and also to allow the authorities to find out why the lad failed.
7.	When the authorities "have made up their minds about a lad they fix the time he is to serve, and in due course he is licensed again. It is not often that a licence is revoked more than once-a lad who persists in going off the

Borstal System

rails after revocation is, unless he is young and not evidently hopeless, usually written off as a



lOvSS.&quot;

[Stage Direction]
8.	It is respectfully submitted that no new machinery will be required to bring into being in the penitentiary service arrangements that will be .equally as effective as the work carried out by the Borstal association. The close liaison presently existing between the remission branch, the department of justice, and the penitentiary service, permits of a facility of close co-operation. The classification board of each Penitentiary, plus the supervisors, if appointed, will have a complete knowledge and appreciation of the life and conduct of a youth while in the penitentiary.
9.	The remission branch has full particulars pertaining to the nature of the crime, and of the environment in which the youth lived prior to his conviction.
10.	The penitentiary is presently equipped with a staff and facilities to seek out, investigate, and recommend persons who might be approved as adviser, big brother, or friend, to a discharged youth having no suitable home to return to upon release.
11.	Existing legislation and clemency practice permit of the release of a convict on licence. The person undertaking to act as guide, philosopher and friend to a released youth would only be called upon to perform those functions during the period for which the licence is granted.
12.	There would be no difficulty in arranging for close co-operation between the remission branch, and the selected persons referred to, either direct or through the warden of a penitentiary.
13.	Nothing is here proposed which would in any way affect the authority of the crown, or alter existing clemency practice.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker,
as this may be the last day upon which the present parliament will be in session I should like to ask the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) if it would not be possible before we prorogue for him to make a statement to the house or to the country as to the probable date of the general elections. I would not expect my right hon. friend to give the exact date but he .might see his way clear to indicate whether the elections will be held in the month of August, in the month of September or in the month of October. I do not think the time will make any difference in the results one way or another but if an approximate time were announced considerable uncertainty would be removed which I think would be of benefit to the country generally.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, if I were in position to
answer the right hon. gentleman's question,

I would do so. I will say this: Just as soon as the necessary arrangements can be made for the holding of the elections, they will be held. That is as far as I can reasonably go. I mean by that, the completion of the lists and concerning all matters of that kind. They will not be delayed beyond such date as may be necessary to have the machinery properly functioning under the sections which have been enacted in that regard.



MORTGAGE CREDITS FOR FISHERMEN


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of and concurrence in an amendment made by the Senate to Bill No. 120, for the purpose of establishing in Canada a system of longterm mortgage credits for fishermen.
He said: There is one amendment made to this bill by the Senate and this is made because in some province the word "land" would not be broad enough to cover buildings erected on the land. It is proposed to add the words "and buildings thereon" at the end of clause (d) of section 6. This will remove any doubt as to this section covering buildings. It will be recalled that \Vhen the natural resources agreements were under consideration a similar difficulty arose as to whether water was covered by the word "land." I move that the amendment 'be read a second time and concurred in.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 86, to establish a dominion trade and industry commission.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the Senate committee on banking and commerce gave considerable attention to this bill and the result is that several amendments of a far-reaching character have been made. I shall indicate them to the house as carefully as possible. The first amendment is to section 11, page 5 and line 12. Subsection 2 in the bill as it left this house reads:
Any person violating any provision of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding two hundred dollars.

Trade Commission-Senate Amendments
The amendment is to insert the words "guilty of an offence under this act and" after the word "be" and before the word "liable."
The next amendment is to section 14, on the same page at line 29. After the word "public" insert the words "or where such agreements exist and in the opinion of the commission but for their existence wasteful or demoralizing competition would exist in any specific industry."
Mr. YOUNG:: What is the significance of the amendment?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Having agreed to the
principle of the acceptance of the agreements, they would 'be extended to cases in which the result of there being no agreement would be demoralizing and wasteful competition. I think that is one of the matters referred to in the report of the commission.


Edward James Young: If I heard the amendment
correctly it would seem to indicate that where an agreement exists they might be permitted to sanction it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is the principle
which we adopted when we passed section 14. In order that there may be no misunderstanding, perhaps I had better read the first part of the section:
Id any case where the commission, after full investigation under the Combines Investigation Act, is unanimously of opinion that wasteful or demoralizing competition exists in any specific industry, and that agreements between the persons engaged in the industry to modify such competition by controlling and regulating prices or production would not result in injury to or undue restraint of trade or be detrimental to or against the interest of the public or where such agreements exists and in the opinion of the commission but for their existence wasteful or demoralizing competition would exist in any specific industry the commission may so advise the governor in council and recommend that certain agreements be approved.
That is repeating the words which appear in the earlier part of the section so as to carry the effect of the proposal into both matters which are mentioned in the section.


Edward James Young: You not only give them
the sanctioning of new combines but you permit them to sanction existing combines.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is an investigation under the combines act and they must be satisfied that there is no undue restraint of trade or injury to the public interests or anything detrimental to the public interests. Investigations may be made with respect to existing agreements because the early part 92582-272 i
of the section provides against wasteful or demoralizing competition. This carries into the fabric of the latter part of the section, the wording of the first part.


Edward James Young: In the eyes of some people all competition in itself is wasteful and demoralizing.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If what my
right hon. friend says is correct, would it not be wise to insert the word "unanimous" before the word "opinion" in the amendment?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think the right hon.
gentleman is right as the early part of the section provides for unanimous opinion with respect to wasteful or demoralizing competition and I am not sure that that is not carried into the proposed amendment. I think the word "unanimous" ought to be inserted between the words "the" and "opinion." With respect to the second amendment on page 5 I move that we disagree with their honours and ask that the word "unanimous" be inserted between the words "the" and "opinion" in the second line of the proposed amendment.
The next amendment is on page 6, line 4. For the words "the relevant sections" there is substituted the words "under sections four hundred and ninety-eight and four hundred and ninety-eight A or any other relevant section.
I think that is satisfactory. Then in section 15 the words:
The commission shall be charged with responsibility to recommend the prosecution of offences against acts of the parliament of Canada.
That is true ; they do not themselves carry on prosecutions. In line 10 they have added the words "the attorney general of Canada" between the word "and" and the word "make," leaving out the words "undertake or carry on." They think that possibly it conflicts with the powers of the provinces. I think these amendments are satisfactory. In section 16 it is proposed to delete the words "or commodities," on the theory that the Interpretation Act covers the point without repeating it in the statute. The letter "s" is struck off the word "grades," making it "grade" in lines 29 and 30. The next amendment is one of importance, adding to subsection (1) of section 19 the words:
Provided that the commission may by regulation prescribe a list of specific commodities to which, in its opinion, it is impossible to apply this paragraph, and this paragraph shall not apply to any commodity appearing in such list.
4294	COMMONS
Trade Commission-Senate Amendments
That refers to "Canada standard," and inasmuch as it has been pointed out that the words could not apply to every commodity 'because of difficulties in the actual carrying out of it, the commission, it is considered, should have power to prepare a list to which it does not apply. That, I think, is satisfactory. The next amendment is in section 20, which is far more difficult. There is substituted for section 20 the following:
20. The commission shall receive complaints respecting unfair trade practices and may investigate the same and, after investigation,
(a)	If of opinion that the practice complained of constitutes an offence against any dominion law prohibiting unfair trade practices may order and require all persons who are parties or privies to such offence to cease and desist from further continuance of such practices and/or
(b)	If of opinion as aforesaid may communicate the complaint, and such evidence, if any, in support thereof as is in the possession of the commission, to the attorney general of Canada with a recommendation that such parties or privies to such offence be prosecuted for violation of the applicable act. The attorney general of Canada, if he concurs in such recommendation, may refer it, with the complaint and evidence, if any, either to the director of public prosecutions or to the attorney general of the province within which the offence is alleged to have been committed, for such action as may seem to be appropriate in the circumstances.
In my opinion there is grave difficulty about that, for this reason. When we were framing the section it seemed clear to us that if the unfair trade practice was a violation of the statute then of course the provisions with respect to prosecution would apply, and that as regards any other unfair trade practice that was not covered by legislation it would not 'be within the competence of this parliament to direct that those engaged in it should cease or desist. The Senate is of the opinion that inasmuch as it has made the limitation to refer to a statute only, this amendment would be valid, and on that understanding of it I quite agree. But it does not touch what is called an unethical trade practice; it only refers to trade practices covered by existing statutes or which may hereafter be covered by statute.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My right hon. friend will appreciate the fact that I have not had an opportunity to more than glance at the proceedings-


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have not either.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: -and therefore I cannot speak on the effect of some of these amendments. But a casual glance at the amendments would cause it to appear that under the changes made by the Senate it will
rMr. Bennett.]
now be possible to violate any act named in section 2 without incurring a greater penalty than an unenforceable order of the commission not to do it again. I do not know whether my right hon. friend sees that possible effect.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wish to make it clear that in my opinion this is bad:
If of opinion that the practice complained of constitutes an offence against any dominion law prohibiting unfair trade practices may order and require all persons who are parties or privies to such offence to cease and desist from further continuance ...
That is the very negation of the principle of enforcement of law as I see it. If there is a statute and the commission is aware that it is being violated, the duty of the commission is to point out to the director of public prosecutions and the attorney general of Canada that- action should be taken, and not to tell someone, "Stop doing it and be a good boy." It is their duty to punish the offenders for what they have done, and that is the view I still hold.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The "don't do it again" provision.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It seems to me to be at variance with the whole theory of jurisprudence. If men have violated the law the mere fact that someone says to them, "Don't do it again," cannot possibly free them from proceedings being taken by any person who desires to make a complaint before any magistrate. I am bound to say I cannot agree with that amendment.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Mackenzie) suggests that the Senate should, at this stage, be asked to cease and desist.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know of many hon. gentlemen opposite to-day who would not be unwilling that it should cease and desist until they find a place there.


Ernest Lapointe: There is something in that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I do not think, however, that we should place upon the statute books of Canada the idea that you can merely say to someone who has violated a statute, "Don't be a naughty boy." If there is a violation proceedings must be taken. We shall have to indicate that we cannot agree to that amendment. The next amendment, on page 8, line 29, provides that the public prosecutor shall be an official of the Department of Justice, and we will disagree with that. That is not the theory on which he is appointed. He is an official of the commission, and though

Trade Commission-Senate Amendments
directed by the Minister of Justice he is not an official of that department. With that one we disagree. The next one is in line 43, where the words "undertake or carry on" are struck out. There is no difficulty about that. On page 9, for the words "is likely" there are substituted the words "appears to be about;" that is to say, instead of saying that it is likely to be committed the words are, "appears to be about to be committed." I am not sure that that is better, but I will not quarrel with it;, we will agree to that. In section 23, after the word "may" in the first line the words "from time to time" are inserted.
The commission may from time to time at the instance of the governor in council or at the request of representative persons engaged in any industry ...
The added words are unnecessary, but out of abundant precaution the addition will not make any difference. In section 25 the words "have authority" in the first line are struck out and the word "to" before the word "study" is therefore also properly struck out.
Now we come to a much more difficult one. They have struck out the provisions of section 26 with respect to investigation of securities issued, and I do not think we should agree with that amendment. This does not place upon the commission any duty except when requested by the Secretary of State to do so. It seems to me that may be a very useful provision having regard to some of the difficulties pointed out the other day by the hon. member for Hants-Kings (Mr. Usley) and the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell). I should like that section to remain. Section 27 has been altered to 26. The numbering is only a matter for the law clerks; that need not give us concern. Section 29 which will become section 28 has been changed to read:
In any case where the governor in council has approved an agreement under this section, no prosecution of a party to such agreement shall be instituted under the Combines Investigation Act or under sections 498A or any other relevant section of the criminal code for an offence arising in the performance of such agreement, except with the consent of the commission.
That is, if the proceedings are being taken under the criminal code, they will be taken with the consent of the commission. I do not like that provision.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I was going to say that it vpould prevent the attorney general of a province from proceeding under the criminal code. I do not think the clause should be retained.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I do not either. I would move second reading and concurrence in amendments made	by	the Senate; No. 1	insection	11; No. 2	in	section	14; No. 3	insubsection 4 of section 14; No. 5 in section 15; No. 6 in section 15; No. 7 in section 15; No. 8 in section 16; No. 9 in section 16; No. 10 in section 16; No. 11 in section 19, subsection	1; No. 12	in	section	22; No. 13	insection	23; No. 14	in	section	25 and No.	15
in section 25.


Ernest Lapointe: With regard to section
22, I believe it is, concerning the public prosecutor, my hon. friend does not agree with the amendment of the Senate that this officer shall be an official of the Department of Justice; it says that he will be under the commission but will be subject to the supervision of the Minister of Justice. I am not sure that the amendment of the Senate is not a good one. We are now proceeding in a way which is rather an anomaly. Under the statute as it is, the Department of Justice is responsible for all the legal work of the government or of any department, but in recent years, in our time as well as now, ministers in other departments seem to have developed the autonomy complex that they should have under themselves in their own departments their own legal officers, for whom, I repeat, under the statute as it is, the Minister of Justice is responsible, but he does not know what they do. They are doing their work in the various departments; they never refer to the officers of the Department of Justice, but the minister is responsible for anything they do, whether it is right or wrong. Let us amend the statute if parliament considers it is a good thing that each department should be responsible for its own legal work, and not have anything to do with the Minister of Justice. But I do not think it is fair to my hon. friend or to whoever is the incumbent of the office of Minister of Justice to be responsible for the work of gentlemen with whom he has nothing to do, who are not appointed by him and who are doing their work without referring to him. This provision that it will be under the supervision of the Minister of Justice will not, I think, correct what is at issue. Under the statute the minister is responsible. Why not accept the amendment of the Senate that this gentleman will be an officer of the Department of Justice, so that not only the ministeir but even the deputy minister could have some control over him? What is the objection to that?
4296	COMMONS
Trade Commission-Senate Amendments


Hugh Guthrie: I would fully agree with my hon. friend in his general statement that all the legal work of the various departments should be exclusively under the Department of Justice, but I would make an exception in the present instance. We .are setting up a special board for a special purpose as a result of the price spreads inquiry, and we are appointing a prosecutor as a special agent or officer of that board to see that the law is carried out; otherwise I would agree entirely with the principles set forth by my hon. friend.


Ernest Lapointe: My hon. friend will be
responsible for the work of that man.


Hugh Guthrie: I see the anomaly, but
the idea is to convince the public, the business people of the country, that this measure is to be enforced, and we are putting a special prosecutor under the control of the trade and industry commission for that purpose.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I want .to make it clear,
in case there is any letter we have overlooked -there may be a change of a letter plural or singular-that the motion is for the second reading and concurrence in all the amendments made by the Senate except the following: the amendment to section 14; this house accepts the amendment if there is added after the word "the" and before the word "opinion" in the second line thereof the word "unanimous," so that it would read "in the unanimous opinion." That is No. 1. That is for the reason that inasmuch as the former part of the section provides for unanimity of opinion, it is desirable that the same should characterize the action taken under the proposed amendment. The next one is the amendment to section 20. The house does not agree in the amendments made by their honours for the following reason, that it is regarded as a bad precedent to state in a statute that anybody can direct those who violate the statute to cease or desist, for if there is a breach to the knowledge of the commission, it should be its duty to take appropriate proceedings for the enforcement of the law in that regard. Does that cover what we wish to say?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Have a greater penalty than simply being told to cease and desist.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It does provide for
greater proceedings after, but I think the principle is wrong.
The amendment at the end of line 29 in section 21 is not agreed to for the reason that under the special circumstances in this case

it is desirable that the director of prosecutions should not be an official of the Department of Justice, although in carrying out his work he is under the superintendence of the minister.
This house does not agree to the deletion of section 26, which it regards as an important section, if in the opinion of the Secretary of State it is desirable to make investigation for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not the capital structure of any company is not in accordance with the principles of the Companies Act.
This house does not agree to the amendment to new section 28 for the reason that it is not desirable that the right of the provincial authorities to institute criminal proceedings should be dependent upon the leave of the commission.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Mr. Bennett moves,
seconded by Mr.-Guthrie:
That a message be sent to the Senate acquainting their honours that this house concurs in the amendments specified by the Prime Minister for the reasons set forth by him, and that the clerk of the house do convey the message to their honours. '


Mr. POULIOT:: Speaking to the motion
I want to make my last remarks for this session. In regard to this proposed legislation, the ex-Ministar of Trade and Commerce stands half-way between the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) and the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister himself is halfway between the ruthlessness of the iron heel and Messrs. Litvinoff, Strachey and the like. The reason I am against this absurd legislation is because it is a consomme made with the skeleton bone of broken promises. That is all, sir.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 99, to amend the Radio Broadcasting Act, 1932.
He said: It merely gives effect to the intention of the commons to continue those sections that were enacted in 1932 until March 31 next year.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I want to say
to my right hon. friend that it is customary to give the leader of the opposition a copy of the amendments. I know it has been just an oversight that I have not been furnished

Criminal Code-Senate Amendments
with copies, but I would like t,o have a complete set in order to be able to follow the discussion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am bound to say that
I only saw them a few .minutes ago myself, because the law clerk only concluded his work upon them since half past ten. I shall ask that they be sent to the right hon. gentleman.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, I realize that it is not anyone's fault, but I should like to have them as well on file.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and Concurred in.



CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT


[Stage Direction]
Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Minister of Justice) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 73, to amend the criminal code.
He said: There are several amendments. It will be remembered that in the bill as introduced and passed by this house there was a .provision to amend what is known as the horse-racing clause. The Senate have now introduced a further amendment which was not in the bill passed by this house, to provide for trotting race meetings up to fourteen days in any one year. That places trotting races in the same position as running races. Hitherto trotting races at which betting by pari-mutual was allowed were limited to three days. By this amendment they may carry on for fourteen days in any one year or two meets of seven days each.
Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is that
in addition to the ordinary racing?


Hugh Guthrie: No, the present law is
that a racing association which has only running races may carry on for two meetings of seven days each or one of fourteen days. Hitherto trotting races have been limited to three days per year. The effect of this amendment is to put the trotting races on the same plane as the running races.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Then
they could have two weeks of running races immediately followed by two weeks of trotting?


Hugh Guthrie: Well, they are different
associations. They do not have both at the same meetings. The jockey clubs run the running races and the trotting associations run theirs.


Mr. McINTOSH:: It would mean then
twenty-eight days of racing and trotting during the year?


Hugh Guthrie: jNo, that does not follow. The trotting association meets I think are in midsummer,, on different tracks, under different auspices, they are different organizations. I am not very familiar with them but that is my idea.


Mr. HEAPS:: Would the minister kindly explain the legal distinction between trotting and running?


Hugh Guthrie: The act I think sets that out pretty clearly. If my hon. friend will read section 235 of the criminal code he will see. This amendment provides for the race meetings at which there are trotting or pacing races exclusively. They cannot be mixed, there cannot be running and trotting. I think trotting and pacing are well-defined terms that sportsmen understand, and all people who have to do with horses. If this amendment is carried these trotting associations will be entitled to fourteen days racing per annum, just as the running races are now.


Ernest Lapointe: Does my hon. friend
accept this amendment?


Hugh Guthrie: I have no view on the subject. It is a new suggestion to me.


Ernest Lapointe: You are not concerned whether it is trotting or pacing?


Hugh Guthrie: No, I am not. There are some racing experts in the house but I am not one of them.
Passing that for the moment, the next amendment was suggested after the bill had passed this house, I think in the first instance by the county crown attorney in the city of Ottawa and also some other county crown attorneys in different cities of Canada. It is to check as far as possible these gambling devices found in stores and places where the public resort, in regard to which the law is a little uncertain at the present time. The Senate has put in a clause that any person who:
conducts, manages or is a party to any scheme, contrivance or operation of any kind by which any person, upon payment of any sum of money, or by obligating himself to pay any sum of money, shall become entitled under such scheme, contrivance or operation to receive from the person conducting or managing such scheme, contrivance or operation, or any other person, a larger sum of money than the amount paid or to be paid', by reason of the fact that other persons have paid or obligated themselves to pay any sum of money under such scheme, contrivance or operation;
4298	COMMONS
Criminal Code-Senate Amendments
Commits an offence. That amendment was not submitted to the house, it came before the Senate at the request of certain law officers of the provincial governments. I have no objection to it.


Ernest Lapointe: That applies only to those who are making money out of the operation of these machines?


Hugh Guthrie: Yes, making money out of these slot machines or gambling devices.


Ernest Lapointe: It does not apply to those who put their money in them?


Hugh Guthrie: No, only to anyone who conducts or manages such a machine. The next amendment is to the minimum wage section which passed this house. When that section was under consideration certain objection was taken to clause (b), which provides:
Everyone is guilty of an indictable offenoe ... who, knowingly:-
(b) permits an employee to work beyond the maximum hours fixed by Ijw or any competent public authority.
I remember that my hon. friend from Wey-burn took strong exception to that clause, and the Senate have seen fit to strike it out. Then at the end of the section we had this general clause:
(h) does any other similar act contrary to law or the rules or regulations of any competent public authority.
The Senate have struck out that clause as well. Then at the request of my hon. friend from Vaneouver-Burrard (Mr. Hanbury) a special clause was inserted in regard to the marking of sawlogs and the placing of initials upon them. The Senate have rewritten the whole clause. We merely amended the clause as it stood then, but the Senate have repealed the present clause and enacted a new clause which probably makes the matter plainer, and it has included the suggestion which passed this house in regard to the initials.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: That suggestion is contained in that amendment?


Hugh Guthrie: Yes. Then at the end of the bill there is a clause stating at what time the act shall come into force. This is a usual clause in regard to criminal legislation:
This act with the exception of sections one, two A, and five thereof shall come into force on the first day of December, 1935, section five thereof shall come into force on the first day of January, 1936, and sections one and two A shall come into force on the passing of this act.
Section 5 is in regard to the issuing of advertisements, sale catalogues and the like. I think we can concur in all the amendments,

but I have an open mind and I want the house to come to a conclusion in regard to the racing section.


Ernest Lapointe: I am willing to accept my hon. friend as my guide in that.


Hugh Guthrie: Personally I have no objection to it; the Senate have seen fit to put it in, and I move concurrence.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.



THE GOVERNOR GENERAL


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I have the honour to advise the house that I have received a message informing this house that the Senate do unite in an address to His Excellency the Governor General on the occasion of the approaching termination of His Excellency's official connection with this country and have inserted in a space therein the words "Senate and."



DOMINION ELECTIONS ACT, 1934

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Thursday, July 4, consideration in committee of Bill No. 105, to amend the Dominion Elections Act, 1934- Mr. Guthrie-Mr. Smith (Cumberland) in the chair.
On section 3-Form 20 amended.
Hugh Guthrie: When the committee rose yesterday we were discussing the affidavit which is part of section 3. I have gone over the matter very carefully since that time; I have considered it from a good many angles, and I think I can make some suggestions modifying the form of affidavit that perhaps will meet with the approval of the committee.
I think we will all agree that the fundamental questions in regard to the exercise of the franchise are first that the person exercising it should be a British subject and second that he should be twenty-one years of age. I do not suppose there is any difference of opinion in that regard. These lists have been prepared, in the cities, to a very large extent by enumeration; inquiries have not been made in regard to the citizenship, in many instances, and I am afraid there also has been some laxity in regard to the ages of the persons who have been put on the lists by the enumerators. The first clause of this affidavit merely reads:
(1) That I am a British subject of the full age of twenty-one years;

Elections Act
I do not think anyone could have any objection to that clause remaining. The second clause, in regard to the residence in Canada, I think may well be stricken out, and I think the third clause might be struck out as well.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: This is still.an affidavit?


Hugh Guthrie: It is the affidavit in the bill that I am discussing. I would not hesitate to strike out the fourth clause also. I also assume, however, that it is the earnest wish of everyone in the house that we should have a fair, clean election and abolish as far as possible personation which has become very prevalent in certain parts of Canada. For the purpose of doing so I submit that we should have some means of identifying the man who attempts personation or who actually personates someone else on election day. I am inclined to think we should all agree to the last clause. This will make an oath of two clauses, as follows:
(1)	That I am a British subject of the full age of twenty-one years;
(2)	That the signature which I have made to this deposition is in my usual handwriting, and is my true name.
"Signature" includes a mark, and anyone who cannot sign his name makes his mark, whether on a cheque, a contract or an affidavit. The only other suggestion is a technical one. At the bottom of the affidavit appear the words "justice of the peace." I would put there, "deputy returning officer or justice of the peace." If these two clauses are accepted I would withdraw paragraphs 2, 3 and 4, and just leave the one "I am a British subject of the full age of twenty-one years," and the other "I have signed this document and that is my handwriting." It was suggested yesterday that the effect might be to choke the poll if these affidavits were taken. I have ascertained that the number of parties sworn runs from only ten to twenty in any polling booth. The chief electoral officer seemed to think it would involve a great deal of printing as there are 35,000 polls and he would have to get out from ten to twenty affidavits for each poll. Well, that can be done. The oath is not a long one; it is a very short one, and it can be printed very readily, and if twenty or even fifty have to be supplied to each poll it would not clog up the poll because there cannot be more than three hundred names on the polling list for any division. I suggest that this is a simple way of remedying what has become a disgrace in some parts of Canada. In Ontario we call it plugging and personation, in Quebec they call it telegraphing. I know that it is the desire of all parties in this house
to stop that if we can do so, and this requirement that a person may be sworn and leave his signature for identification purposes will I think go a long way in stopping this thing happening.


Mr. GARDINER:: I am rather surprised
and regret very much the attitude the minister has taken in regard to this oath. He states he is willing to accept clauses 1 and 5, and delete clauses 2, 3 and 4. Clause 1 simply states "I am a British subject of the full age of twenty-one years." That in my judgment is very important to have in the oath. The last clause, No. 5, which the minister wishes to have included in the oath, states "That the signature which I have made to this deposition is in my usual handwriting and is my true name." That is very important too and should remain in the oath. But now let us look at clause 2 for a moment. It reads:
That I have been ordinarily resident in Canada for at least twelve months immediately preceding the commencement of the annual revision of the lists of electors on the fifteenth day of May last.
Why should not that remain in?


Hugh Guthrie: The reason is that that
is a part of the franchise act, and this is the elections act that we are dealing with. These clauses that I have agreed to strike out deal with matters that have all been considered before the name was put on the voters' list.


Robert Gardiner: If the situation is
covered in that way I have not the same objection.


Hugh Guthrie: It is.


Ernest Lapointe: I am sorry I cannot agree with this requirement which forces any elector who is challenged at the poll by a representative of a candidate to sign an affidavit in the way prescribed by this section. Where is that done anywhere else? As I said last night, instead of putting obstacles in the way of electors coming to the poll and registering their votes, we should facilitate their voting. In some countries they have a system of compulsory voting. It is a disgrace that citizens do not take the trouble to go to the polls and register their votes, and we should do what we can to facilitate their voting, rather than put obstacles in their way.
The Minister of Justice says that twenty such forms on the average will be required for each poll. But what is there to prevent a representative who wants to make trouble, and unfortunately there are some even in our country, from insisting on challenging the
Elections Act

vote of all the electors, especially in certain polls? In a labour division, as in my own constituency, where it is well known that practically all the voters would vote for me -I do not say that in any boasting way but simply because they belong to the Liberal party-what is there to prevent a man who has nothing to lose from going to the poll and, simply for the purpose of making trouble, forcing everybody to take the oath and to sign the affidavit, the women as well as the men, thereby clogging the polls and obstructing the work of the returning officers? There are certain hours during the polling day when more people come to register their votes than at some other period of the day, and there m&3r be some voters who will be unable under the circumstances to register their votes.
There is also this fact, that there are some people-I know it is so in certain constituencies-who do not like to be forced to take an affidavit. They have some sort of scruple of conscience about it. They do not like to give their signature in order to foe allowed to vote. My hon. friend from Quebec West the Solicitor General (Mr. Dupre) knows that in his own constituency there are workmen and women too who will not like this, and it may make trouble there, a great deal more than in my own constituency.
Why force this thing? It is not done anywhere else. I do not see why the honest people, those who have the right to vote, should foe inconvenienced in this way because there are some culprits who would come and personate voters. As I said last night, these culprits will not be prevented from carrying out their intention. They can easily say they do not know how to sign and they will mark a cross. As I said 'before it will inconvenience the honest voters, and for these two reasons I am strongly opposed to it. I know that this will not be a pleasant thing for a large number of bona fide voters, and I would like to know who is insisting on having this thing.


Hugh Guthrie: I think, Mr. Chairman, that the difficulties which my hon. friend sees in the adoption of this system are largely imaginary. Very few people are sworn at a poll.


Ernest Lapointe: But many might be.


Hugh Guthrie: Very few are sworn. My hon. friend says that if anyone desires to do so he might plug the poll by insisting on swearing everybody that comes along, but even if he did, the voters would all be able to register their votes between eight in the morning and six at night because no more than

three hundred can vote at any poll. Experience shows that from ten to twenty sworn is the average. That is from Mr. Castonguay, who says that he would have to supply from ten to twenty forms. Well, I said, supply enough if it passes. I do not think anybody is going to be very much hurt if they are asked to sign their name to an oath. At the present time they can be sworn and they take a verbal oath, and the returning officer enters their name. It is a very slight thing to ask the person making an affidavit, "Please sign this." That is all you have to do. I think everybody will agree that this is going to stop a lot of this personation.


Mr. POWER:: Not one.


Hugh Guthrie: I think everybody will agree that the house should stop it, and that we should do everything in our power to stop it. We should not strain at imaginary difficulties in order to accomplish some great purpose which I believe we shall accomplish if we pass this clause with this affidavit.


Mr. OHEVRIER:: Mr. Chairman, with the principle, the stoppage of personation, I am fully in accord, but I think this is a most unpopular way to go about it. The Minister of Justice says he will need from twenty to twenty-five forms in each polling booth. If personation goes on only to the extent of some fifteen or twenty it is hardly worth while going to this trouble. Impersonation does exist and the minister says that he believes it could be prevented and that it would not take much time. I know that there will be learned people, men of experience who will feel hurt to a certain extent if challenged in that way. In certain constituencies there are aged people and illiterate people and if they are challenged it will take a certain length of time to explain to them that they have to make this affidavit. If it was the ordinary oath I would foe in accord with it but this idea of explaining to an aged woman, to an old man or to an illiterate person will cause a delay in some cases of fifteen, twenty or twenty-five minutes.


Hugh Guthrie: Oh no.


Noé E. Chevrier: My hon. friend' is a
lawyer and he knows that when an illiterate person comes into a lawyer's office to sign an affidavit a full explanation must be made. When we were discussing the affidavits that was one reason why this declaration was left out of the act. The enumerators going from house to house would have had to sit down and explain the thing fully to illiterate persons. Everyone realizes how long that would
JULY 5, 1935 [DOT]
Elections Act
take. Then it is possible that some people will be driven away from voting. Personalty I think there is another way in which this matter could be handled but it is not my business to make up this law.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to take up the time of the committee but I have a very strong opinion as to the desirability of having some approach to what I call honesty in the conduct of elections.


Ernest Lapointe: We all1 have; my right
hon. friend should not say that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is only one way
to have it and that is to provide adequate safeguards to prevent dishonesty. I remember one statement which was made to me in connection with an election in eastern Canada. It was stated that an impersonator came here from an American city and voted forty-two times. There is only one way to stop that kind of thing, have them sign a paper. No impersonator will take the risk as perjury is an extraditable offence.


Ernest Lapointe: He	would be perjuring himself just the same without this.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The	former Minister
of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) knows perfectly well that it is a different thing when a returning officer says something rather quickly and the voter replies, "so help me 'God." I was impressed by what the hon. member for Toronto Northwest (Mr. MacNicol) said last night that the provisions which have to do with the franchise should be excluded. They have been excluded and the man now swears that he is a British subject, is over twenty-one years of age and is the person named on 'the list.
A few years ago there was an election in a city in this country-I speak from memory and subject to correction-where thirty prominent persons found that they could not vote when they went to the polls because they had been voted before eleven o'clock by persons who were not residents of this country. There was another case in which evidence was unearthed that wigs and costumes had been used in order to change the appearance of these men. With the happy reputation which Canadian law has these people will not take the risk of signing their names and being charged with perjury to be proved by the production of a document. Perjury without the production of documents is always a difficult thing to prove but when you have a man sign a note that he is the person named you will stop this sort of thing very quickly.
That is the only purpose I have in mind and perhaps I must accept responsibility for the form of this section. I did not draft it but I said I thought it was highly desirable that it should be in that form. I say this from my own experience and in the light of information which has been given to me. I believe this information was correct as it was given to me by a gentleman whom I have every reason to believe knew whereof he was speaking. In a moment of frankness he told me that he had participated in the things to which I referred.
As to the polls being crowded, I do not think that will occur. I recall a case during a provincial election where because of the complexity of the vote it was thought desirable to challenge everyone who came in. Although it was thought that this would crowd the polls, it was found that everyone had an opportunity to vote. These polls will open at eight o'clock in the morning and close at six o'clock in the evening and everyone knows that it is the honest people who will be challenged.


Ernest Lapointe: They may be.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is always a contingency to expect; I may be challenged or my hon. friend may be. However, this law is aimed at the crook.


Ernest Lapointe: It will hit the honest
man.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It will not. How will
it touch the honest man unless he is challenged?


Ernest Lapointe: He will be.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is no chance of
that happening to any considerable extent because public opinion would not support a scrutineer who took such action. We are trying to prevent fraud and dishonesty and to permit the exercise of the franchise by those persons who legitimately 'have the right to exercise it. I do suggest that the committee should adopt this section because not to do so would look as though we were not anxious to prevent what has became a real evil in Canada, impersonation. Speaking from my experience as a lawyer which while it has not been great, at least has been varied, I say that the crook will be through the minute he is asked to sign a document.


Mr. CARDIN:: He will not sign his own
name, he will sign the name of the person on the list.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That signature will not
be in his handwriting and he thereby steps right into the hands of the prosecution.
Elections Act


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: You would not be able
to get him afterwards; you would not have his photograph.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We certainly could not
go to the expense of photographing everyone. As a matter of fact, it was suggested that finger prints should be taken. Recently I observed that the Canadian National Railways provide a small photograph of the person to whom they issue a pass on the pass. They have found that passes were being used by people other than those to whom they were issued. We are trying to do that very thing. We all should be anxious, and I believe we are anxious, to prevent fraud by the electors. I do not think there will be any difficulty in the crowding of the polls as we have limited the number to three hundred. Assuming that half are challenged there would be no crowding, or even if two hundred were challenged everyone would have an opportunity to vote. When a doubtful man enters the poll the scrutineer simply says, "challenged," and there are only two clauses to the oath to be administered by the returning officer who obtains a signature and places it in the roll book where it will be for all time.


Ernest Lapointe: I think my hon. friend
will admit that I have had a certain amount of experience having taken part in twelve elections. There will be a crowding of the polls if everyone is challenged as may well happen. It is all right to say that honest people will not be challenged but everyone knows that there are some who will be anxious to prevent their opponents voting.


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: I should like to ask the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie) if the artistic draftsman who had to do with the War Time Elections act of many years ago and the Dominion Franchise Act of last year had anything to do with making or suggesting this change?


Hugh Guthrie: No.


An hon. MEMBER:: Have you not forgotten that?


William Richard Motherwell: I am still suspicious of anything done by this government in connection with the elections or franchise acts.
I have had considerable experience with elections and I know how polls can be blocked by zealous and offensive scrutineers and returning officers. Sometimes these men are very offensive and they terrorize the innocent voter by asking something which cannot be explained on such short notice. It is just one more attempt by this government to grab at some floating straws to save them from des-

truction; that is all. Why not make a clean breast of the whole thing and come across clean as was done with regard to the alternative vote? That was a deliberate attempt to get a party advantage in one single province. No one less diabolical than O'Connor could have drafted or thought up that. I object to all these attempts to grab off party advantage at the last moment. My hon. friends might as well have taken the consequences from an indignant electorate standing up, instead of resorting to these dubious devices to save themselves-and then not likely to succeed.
Mr. ST-PERE:	In the course of his remarks the Minister of Justice said that the electors had ample time to vote on polling day. If he represents a city he must admit that the large vote, the labour vote, the vote of the common people, is usually given between four and seven o'clock at night. It comes in bulk, so to speak.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is a special provision for noon.
Mr. ST-PERE: Placed in the hands of any strong partisan, the amendment may be used against any candidate. As far as the signing of this form is concerned, may I ask the Prime Minister this question. Could the crook who signed an affidavit of this kind be located immediately? Where could you find him? He could not be identified at all. I strongly object to this provision, not because I am a partisan-and the Secretary of State knows that I like to run fair elections-


Mr. CAHAN:: Hear, hear.
Mr. ST-PERE: I have that reputation in Montreal in my riding. But for the love of Mike don't enact laws that will strike off the list half the electors in a poll. I have seen that before in provincial elections. If this amendment is put into force we shall see a duplication in Montreal of what I have seen in the past- deputy returning officers, representatives of candidates, purposely eliminating electors waiting at the door, preventing them from voting. I strongly oppose this amendment.


Mr. DUPRE:: The hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe) said that in a constituency like mine, for instance, the people would be opposed to such a procedure. I do not share his view. This is an honest effort to stop impersonation and I cannot understand the position of our friends of the Liberal party. In the rural constituencies impersonation is very difficult; in fact, it is practically unknown. The provision would

Elections Act
therefore affect only city constituencies like that of my hon. friend from Quebec East or mine. I do not see anything at all in the objections of my hon. friend from Quebec East and my hon. friend from Hochelaga. I do not agree with that hon. gentleman that the vote is polled to the greatest extent between four and seven o'clock. It is also polled early in the morning and, for the working man especially, between noon and two o'clock in the afternoon. As regards the argument about crowding the polls, our opponents seem to forget that under the old law the same thing could be done. Any elector could be asked to give an affidavit-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh no.


Maurice Dupré: -a sworn statement, which was much longer than the one now being proposed and which consists of only two paragraphs. I do not see any objection, therefore. On the contrary, I think it will be welcomed in my constituency at any rate. The honest voter will never object to such a procedure.


Mr. RINFRET:: We are just as anxious as the Solicitor General to prevent impersonation, but every time we discuss an electoral law or an amendment thereto we are confronted with two conflicting principles; one is to adopt complicated devices to prevent impersonation and the other is to -make it as easy as possible for the honest elector to vote. I have always stood for the latter. In my opinion the electoral legislation adopted last year and the amendments before the house this year tend to make it harder and harder for the average honest citizen to register his vote. What is written on the document is rather complicated and in addition he may have to fight for his own right during the revision. And now he is confronted with the possibility of having to read and sign a document at the poll. It is well known that the average person objects to taking an oath; rightly or wrongly he considers it an insult. If people have to read a long document and sign it a number of them will object. I am very much of the opinion of the former Minister of Justice that while an impersonator may be stopped by having to sign a document, if anyone wishes to send impersonators to a poll such impersonators will be schooled in what they have to do in order to attain their purpose. For one impersonator who will be stopped by this amendment, from ten to twenty or more honest voters will be prevented from voting. The honest voter expects the ordinary procedure and if he is confronted with a document of this kind he may refuse to sign it. If a candidate or his agents conspired to put through a number of illicit votes, we may be sure that such impersonators would be properly schooled, and I cannot see that the fact that a record remains after the vote is cast is any advantage over the old system. After all, if a man comes to vote for someone else and signs that other person's name, when he has left the poll there is nothing more against him than the fact that he has left a document behind him. There is nothing more by which to trace him than if he had merely taken an oath under the old system.


Mr. MANION:: There is forgery against him as well as perjury if he signs another man's name.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Yes, but when he has disappeared it will be hard to prove either against him. Speaking from my experience in Montreal, I must say that the important thing seems to me to be to make it as easy as possible for the honest man to vote. I am afraid that all these proposals and particularly this one requiring a man to sign his name will keep more people from voting than it will prevent impersonators from registering votes.


Mr. TUMMON:: If his vote is challenged now has he not got to take an oath? If he is an honest man will he hesitate to sign a document?


Mr. DONNELLY:: As I understand it, this amendment is introduced to prevent people from impersonating voters. I notice that the Solicitor General said that impersonation was almost unknown in the country. The Prime Minister interjected that it was absolutely unknown in the country districts. May I suggest therefore to the Minister of Justice that this section be applied only to the urban centres and not to the rural districts. It can be used in rural districts only to annoy voters where, as the Prime Minister has said, impersonation is unknown. It can be and is used in this way because I have had experience with it being used to annoy voters at the time of an election, and I would suggest that it be eliminated entirely so far as rural districts are concerned.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Like the hon. member for Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe) and the hon. member for St. James (Mr. Rinfret), I am opposed to this amendment in the form in which it is. I think we are all agreed that impersonation should be stopped, but this is a very unpopular way to go about stopping it. While we may stop a few of the impersonators
Elections Act

and the culprits who are paid to do such a wicked job, I think we will, especially in the large cities, affect the vote of good, honest people, who will not like this form of making an affidavit in the way it is proposed to be done under this amendment. As regards the contention of the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Power), his experience is good, but to my mind it is not as good before the committee and the house as that of that of members like the hon. member for Quebec East, the ihon. member for St. James and myself who have run elections for many years. He ought to know that in big cities like Quebec, Montreal and others outside our province people come into the polling stations at the last hour, as the hon. member for Hoohelaga (Mr. St-Pere) has said. If at the time the representative of any given candidate knows his polling division is a Liberal stronghold, or for that matter a Conservative stronghold, because the thing works both ways, and if he wants to be strong for his candidate, he may challenge the vote of any person who comes in there.
I want to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that not only has this been done in cities, but in my own county in a rural district, because some person had been away for a certain time and had been put on the list, everyone who came to the poll was challenged. This was done even in rural or semi-rural divisions. There is a danger that might obtain if this form of affidavit is used. We have the present form whereby a man coming in may be attested and forced to take the oath. He takes the oath and it is marked that he is sworn. If he takes the oath, he is given a ballot because he is on the list. This proceeding we are taking to-day is the last, third degree test after the revision and the main basic lists have been made. It has only one purpose, namely, to make the election more difficult, and to try to keep away from the polls as many people as possible.


Maurice Dupré: That is absolutely ridiculous.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: The franchise is in the air; a person has to go and grab it and see that his name is on the list. Formerly every person was on the list and was not bound to under the special circumstances in this case
As the hon. member for Hocbelaga has said, what guarantee have we that we have caught the impersonator? The man who is bad, who is the culprit, who is asked to do a wicked job, will be requested to make an affidavit and to subscribe his name. He will subscribe the name of the person he wants to impersonate. We have not his signature; we do not know who he is; we have not his address. We have

to grab him on the spot. If he takes the affidavit, impersonates the man and we give him the ballot, he takes it and goes free. What guarantee have we that we can reach that man? We cannot reach him at all, and I douibt whether this amendment will serve the purpose it is intended to serve. If this affidavit were made in the form of an oath to be taken, but not to- force the person who would be called upon to subscribe to the oath, to put his signature to it, I would not object to that so much. But to force a person to sign, I think, -with the mentality of the people in our province-and I think the same is true in all the provinces-it is an insult to the labourers, the employees, the honest workingman who come to the polls, to be forced at the wish of a representative there to put his signature to a document or, if he does not know how to sign, to put his mark. I repeat that we have no guarantee that we will be able to get the wicked man who wants to deprive the honest voter of his vote. I am against it.


Mr. HACKETT:: I suppose hon. members opposite are aware of the campaign which has been carried on for some time in the city of Montreal to identify electors. They are aware that a bill was prepared to force every elector to carry a card of identification bearing his photograph. That measure went forward with unanimous approval. This was a matter of some inconvenience, but it was for the purpose of correcting the very ill which is complained of here. If the signature of the document is in itself a great ill, why should we exact that every person who comes into the country must sign? It is impossible to come in on the train from the neighbouring republic without signing a document as to one's origin and so forth, and it is impossible to go into the neighbouring republic without doing the same thing. If these requirements are exacted for a mere transitory visit, it seems to me that perforce like requirements should be exacted of people who are by their vote going to determine what is going to be the policy and even the destiny of the country.
After all I think we can admit that the practical application and use of this document will be restricted to how many constituencies? A few in Montreal. I know nothing of Toronto or the other cities. The very example given by the hon. member for Charlevoix-Saguenay (Mr. Casgrain) shows that the signature of the document will in no way increase his embarrassment. He said that a deputy returning officer challenged a certain number of people.

Elections Act
It is not my purpose to discuss the question whether he did that with or without reason, but we are not taking away that right, and it will merely mean that the person who takes an oath will do it in a form of which there will be a permanent record. If this legislation is passed, I do not believe it would be brought into practical application to any extent in more than a dozen constituencies, and it will give an assurance of an honest vote. I cannot and will not assume that hon. gentlemen in whatever section of the house they sit are less interested in that result than are those who are bringing forward this bill.


Mr. BAKER:: The hon. member for Char-levoix-Saguenay (Mr. Casgrain) mentioned the blocking of the poll. He will admit that impersonations will be in the morning because if the impersonator does not arrive in the morning, the opportunity for impersonation will be lost, so his point there is very weak.


Mr. McPHEE:: In country polls the deputy returning officer will not know anything about the legal effect of a signature, and I would suggest that the Minister of Justice should insert an alternative:
That I am unable to write and have hereto made my mark and that	is my true
name.
That will cover the difficulty.


Hugh Guthrie: I am trying to draft a clause to carry out that suggestion.


Ernest Lapointe: Also there will be
nothing to prevent challenging the voter under another section of the act, and he will have to take another oath on form 19 in which he will be required to swear again that he is a British subject, twenty-one years of age, that he has not voted before at this election, has not been employed by any person for pay or reward in reference to this election and has not been promised anything directly or indirectly .to induce him to vote. There will be two sets of oaths that may be required from any voter, one he will have to sign in the form of an affidavit, for the other the usual oath will serve the purpose.


Maurice Dupré: They do not serve the same purpose.


Ernest Lapointe: No, 'but they both take
time. It is not such an easy thing as some hon. gentlemen claim, and I have had some experience in elections. It takes time to swear voters, especially if someone wants time to be taken, they will insist on having the two oaths forced on the elector who applies to vole, and one of them will have to be signed.
There are many people, old ladies and old labouring people who do not like to take affidavits and sign .their names just for the purpose of voting.


John Thomas Hackett: They are not impersonators.


Mr. GAGNON:: The honest voter is never afraid to sign his name.


Ernest Lapointe: It is all very well for
my hon. friend to say that, he has not had the experience, let me tell him. I know people who have refused to swear although they were the most honest in the world, they do not like it. There are people-we may think it is a mistake of conscience but there are those who think it is a bad thing to take an oath, they are afraid to take an oath under any circumstances, and I think forcing them to do that for the purpose of registering their vote will cause some of them to decline to exercise their right or fulfil the duty of registering their vote at any election. You will not serve any purpose by doing this but you will prevent some honest voters from voting. It is useless to say we want to have clean elections, I do not think anyone will charge me with having any other intention in mind. Anything that will lead to honest elections I will support as strongly as anyone, but I do not believe .this is the right way of doing it. I think this will rather hit people who are not the fraudulent persons whom it is intended to prevent doing their evil work.


An hon. MEMBER:: You are wrong.


Ernest Lapointe: An hon. member says
I am wrong. I know when I was representing a rural sitting in Kamouraska this thing would not apply there at all, but let those who are carrying on elections in cities and know something about the conditions say what their experience is in that regard.


Robert James Manion: There are more from cities on this side.


Ernest Lapointe: Let me tell my hon.
friend many of his electors will not like this provision, and he will agree that I was not wrong in the fight I am making to-day.


Charles Gavan Power: Before this passes I would
like to make a few observations. I entirely agree with my hon. friend from Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe). It will be quite possible for any evil-minded scrutineer to block any of the large city polls in the city of Quebec, let alone in Montreal, without the assistance of the deputy returning officer; a scrutineer who intends to win for his candidate by fair means
Elections Act

or foul-and this is fair means under the act -could very easily in the last two hours of voting challenge enough people to block the polls. It is all very well to say there are ten hours to vote, but even ten hours with three hundred voters means a voter every two minutes during the whole day. This affidavit will take five minutes to get signed if it is properly done.


An hon. MEMBER:: More than that.


Maurice Dupré: No.


Charles Gavan Power: The Solicitor General says
no. I think it was the Minister of Justice, or perhaps the Prime Minister who said they wished to correct the present system whereby a voter comes in and they say, "You swear to this," and that is all. It is much easier to say, "You sign this." They will not go through all the formality of swearing, they will just say, "Sign this," and they will sign. If a man is going to telegraph he will sign anything, he will sign his cross, and how can you identify him afterwards?


Mr. MacNICOL:: He won't be able to vote irregularly as often.


Charles Gavan Power: It is all very well for the
Minister of Railways to say, "That is different, this is not impersonation, this is forgery." He thinks it is going to be made more difficult because another crime is piled on top of the crime that already exists. I wonder if my hon. friend the Minister of Railways ever saw a properly drawn election petition. A man whose election is protested is accused of every crime they can think of.


Robert James Manion: They never contest mine.


Charles Gavan Power: No, there is always a sawoff in Ontario, I understand.


Robert James Manion: Never had a saw-off in
any of mine.


Charles Gavan Power: If my hon. friend ever saw an election petition he would be appalled at the number of crimes you can commit under the Dominion Elections Act already.


Robert James Manion: My hon. friend ought to
know.


Charles Gavan Power: Everything from hiring a
man to drive voters to the polls-which I thought was absurd-to personation, subornation of personation, and the Lord knows how many other crimes. To add another crime that of perjury will not change the attitude of the person who intends to poll a vote which he is not entitled to poll. I can assure my hon. friend that the only effect this can possibly have is first to prevent the honest
'Mr. Power.]
man from voting. In my early days it was considered quite a favourite trick to challenge the most respectable man on the opposite side, to say, "Now we will put the oath to this fellow and he will probably walk out of the polling booth insulted." He will be far more insulted if you ask him to sign; he will say, "I'll be darned if I'm going to sign." I maintain that given the idea of winning the election, in any polling subdivision where it is fairly certain that one party is predominant, a scrutineer with a certain amount of courage by insisting on these affidavits in the last two hours of voting can block the polls. He can keep twenty-five per cent of the voters in a labour constituency from voting.


An hon. MEMBER:: More than that.


Charles Gavan Power: I can tell my hon. friend
the Solicitor General these people can do that if they so desire, there would be nothing fraudulent in it, you could not attack them under this or any other act, they would be performing a perfectly legal action by insisting on every voter who came in after five o'clock being obliged to sign the affidavit. I ask my hon. friend in all conscience to imagine what would happen in St. Sauveur should such tactics be tried either by his side or ours. I think the mounted police would have to come back from Regina.


Maurice Dupré: The same thing could be
done tinder the old law, and it was not done.


Charles Gavan Power: The same thing could be
done by way of swearing, yes. But it will take far more time for this affidavit to be drawn.


Maurice Dupré: No, it is very short.


Charles Gavan Power: Honest people wild argue
for hours before they will put their signature to a document, but those who are voting dishonestly will take only a second to write their names, they will sign crosses, and they will be gone. It is easy for those who wish to sign an affidavit and so blind themselves to the truth to do so; we all know that in our practice in the courts, but it is extremely difficult to get a man to come before the court and swear to the same thing that he will put his signature to. The dishonest man, or the man who is not fully conscious of his duty, will sign this paper in a moment. The honest man will absolutely refuse to do so, and the unjust scrutineer, particularly if he is backed by a partisan returning officer, can prevent the true expression of the people through their votes. That is why I am opposing this affidavit.

Elections Act


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is getting on towards one o'clock, when the house will rise unless we pass a motion that we should continue to sit. I am entirely in the hands of the house-


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Let us continue to sit.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If it is the wish of the
house we might report progress and I will move that we continue to sit without intermission.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is quite
agreeable so far as w.e are concerned.
Progress reported.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, by leave of the
house I move that the house do not rise at one o'clock but that we continue to sit until a further motion is made to adjourn. I assume that W'ould be the proper thing to do.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) moved the second1 reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 21, to provide for limiting the hours of work in industrial undertakings to eight in the day and forty-eight in the week, in accordance with the convention concerning the application of the principle of the eight hour day or of the forty-eight hour week adopted' by the general conference of the international labour organization of the League of Nations, in accordance with the labour part of the treaty of Versailles of the 28 th June, 1919.
He said:	There has been a long and
extended further discussion in regard to these amendments, and it seems to be the best advice of those better able to speak than I that these amendments meet the views of most of those concerned. If we do not concur in these amendments it is hard to say how long and protracted the discussion may be, so I move concurrence in the a.mendL ments made by the Senate.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed consideration in committee of Bill No. 105, to amend the Dominion Elections Act, 1934-Mr. Guthrie-Mr. Smith (Cumberland) in the chair.
On section 3-Form 20 amended.
Hugh Guthrie: Mr. Chairman, at the
suggestion of the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth (Mr. Ralston), in regard to the case of an illiterate voter who does not sign his name I have drafted a short amendment that might cover some of the objections that have been offered to this section. The amendment is as follows:
That	is my true name, and that
the signature hereto is in my usual handwriting; or in the case of an illiterate voter, that the mark placed hereto is my usual method of signing my name.
I should be content to accept that amendment instead of the section as drawn.


Ernest Lapointe: What protection will that be? What will that mark be a protection against?


Hugh Guthrie: There are very few
illiterate voters in Canada. It would not be protection equal to the signature.


Charles Gavan Power: But "Mr. Telegrapher"
would say, "I am an illiterate voter."


Hugh Guthrie: We would have to take
that chance. This is to prevent fraud as far as possible. We cannot foresee every case.


Charles Gavan Power: But that is naturally what he would do. If he were afraid of the crime of forgery, as suggested by my hon. friend the Minister of Railways, he would say, "All right; I cannot sign." He would walk into the poll; he would be duly sworn; he would go in with the representatives of both parties; he would go through all the performance of an illiterate and they would say, "All right, come and put your mark here." He would place his mark there and he would do it forty-two times, just like the man who is sworn.


Hugh Guthrie: Then we had better
stick to the clause as drawn. I am only suggesting this at the instance of the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth.


Charles Gavan Power: This is not any better.
Amendment agreed to on division.
Section as amended agreed to on division.
Section 4 agreed to.


Hugh Guthrie: Before the bill is reported, there were two amendments added last night at the end of the bill. Did we get those in order?


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Smith, Cumberland) :: Yes, I have them here.
Bill reported, read the third time on
division, and passed.

Trade Commission



TRADE AND INDUSTRY COMMISSION

William Lyon Mackenzie King: Has the house
finally considered the amendments made by the Senate 'to Bill No. 86? I understood a further conference was going on, and that we had not received the final report.


Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance):: My right hon. friend may be correct; I will ascertain the situation as quickly as possible. I believe so far as we in this house are concerned, however, the procedure is concluded.


Hugh Guthrie: We refuse to concur in three of the Senate amendments to that bill.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We might go through the remaining supplementary and main estimates, reserving one of the readings.
M.r. BENNETT: The Senate have not concluded with Bill No. 86. I had a conference with them. It has not yet come back to the house but will be back presently. There are some supplementary estimates not yet disposed of.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If we have concluded with everything except Bill No. 86 I see no reason why we might not go ahead with supply, and pass it in whole, but it is understood that there is to be no measure considered other than Bill No. 86. Is that it?


Richard Bedford Bennett: After we get the supply bill through, we want to vote on the Harris resolution because it was a vote the right hon. gentleman asked for, not a discussion.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Forget it,


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not want to repeat what the Right Hon. Mr. Thomas said, but I think it would be all humbug to have a vote on that resolution at this time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is on Hansard that the right hon. gentleman did not want to be prevented from, the opportunity of voting on it. I want to give him the chance.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We will vote at once if my right hon. friend will guarantee there will be no discussion which will prolong the session.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, but somebody will have to make some observations to get the bill before the house. With respect to Bill No. 98 I am just advised that there is an effort to propose some amendments to that bill that we could not possibly accept as it would be a negation of all the effort we have made, but I cannot speak definitely until I see them.
[The Chairman.]

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Smith (Cumberland) in the chair.
To pay to the estate of the late General Sir Arthur William Currie, G.C.M.G..	K.C.B.,
LL.D., in recognition of the eminent services rendered to his country by the deceased general during the great war, $50,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wonder if I might revert to the item making a grant to the estate of the late Sir Arthur Currie as I was not present when the item was discussed before, and I asked that it stand.
I should like to make it clear that the delay in bringing in this vote was quite anticipated by w'hat was said by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Mackenzie) the other evening. It is a vote as we lawyers say, nunc pro tunc, a vote as if given to him in his lifetime, and is therefore payable to his estate, but it was not paid to the estate until such time as the estate was wound up. The complete estate consists of something around $11,000, and this grant is being made as though it were being made to Sir Arthur Currie in his lifetime so far as that is possible.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Is there a reasonable assurance that none of this money will be used for payments to any bank or anything of that sort?


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is that which I desired to make clear to the committee. I would not otherwise have mentioned it at all. The estate has been wound up and after the payment of all claims there is a small surplus of about $11,000, so no part of this sum will become assessable for any claims of any character against the estate. That is my advice, and I also received a copy of the disposition of the winding up of the estate under the laws of Quebec.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: While I am not at all opposing this vote I think a life annuity would have been preferable in the public interest.


Richard Bedford Bennett: 
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses of the royal commission on price spreads and mass buying (governor general's warrants of July 30, November 3 and December 19, 1934), $155,000.
Mr. HANSON:: Mr. Chairman, I wish to give the following information to the committee. The total cost of the price spreads committee while it was a committee was $196,783.51, and while it was a royal commission $217,889.15, making a grand total of $414,672.66. There may be some accounts for printing which have not yet come in and not included in this amount. These figures are given by the comptroller of the treasury.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: The minister was asked the other evening, and stated that he would inform the committee how much was paid to the auditors.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have
that detailed up to a certain date. Up to March, Clarkson, Gordon, Dilworth, Guilfoyle and Nash had been paid $27,238.21, and there was an account for $5,994.52 outstanding; P. A. Nightingale had been paid $1,655, and expenses of $136.41, or a total of $1,791.41; Fred Page Higgins, $23,520.65, and expenses $2,011.39, or a total of $25,532.04; Peat, Marwick, Mitchell and Company, $6,235, and expenses $1,583.80, or a total of $7,818.80, and there was an account for $1,908.40 outstanding. That is all the information I have with respect to the auditors.


James J. Donnelly: When this committee on July 3 was considering this item the Minister of Trade and Commerce was asked how much money had been collected from tax evaders as a result of the price spreads investigation. He said that he did not know exactly, that he had heard only rumours but he understood that a considerable amount hadrbeen collected. I understand that during the past month the Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Revenue have both been asked the same question, and they both told us that no money whatever had been collected.


Richard Burpee Hanson: They did not say that.


James J. Donnelly: At page 1655 of Hansard of March 12, 1935, the Minister of National Revenue was asked this question:
Have any sums been collected by the income tax department as a result of revelations before the price spreads and mass buying commission, and if so what is the amount?
And the Minister of National Revenue replied :
I am informed that the answer is no; no amount has been collected.
That was the answer of the minister. Many Conservative members are going about the country telling of the huge sums of money which have been collected, more than sufficient to pay for the cost of the investigation. I think we should know whether or not any sums have been collected. It has been stated that the MacDonald Tobacco Company and the Canada Packers Limited have paid large amounts in income taxes which would not have been paid had this investigation not been held. If the minister has any information in this connection I should like to have it. I should like to know if he has any information about the rumours which have been going about.


Mr. MATTHEWS:: I know nothing about any rumours. Perhaps the hon. member is confusing the recent rise in prices with-


James J. Donnelly: That has nothing to do with it.


Robert Charles Matthews: We examined the evidence given before the committee and the commission and we went to the trouble of distributing this evidence to the different local inspectors of income tax for further examination and report. So far as I am aware no additional revenue has accrued as a result of the inquiry although up to date all inspector* have not reported.

Combines Investigation Act


James J. Donnelly: I am not finding fault with the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Matthews) but the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Hanson) has said that he has it on rumour that large sums of money have been paid. I want to know what the rumours are with which the Minister of Trade and Commerce is dealing. I want to know if they are based on fact or if they are just street talk.


Richard Burpee Hanson: My understanding was that certain revenue had been received by the department but that none of it had been earmarked as having been received as a result of the investigation.


James J. Donnelly: What department?


Richard Burpee Hanson: The income tax.


James J. Donnelly: The Minister of National Revenue has just told us there was nothing received.
_ Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury): Then that is correct.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Smith (Cumberland) in the chair.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1936, the sum of $16,359,978.34 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Rhodes thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 122 for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1936.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Mr. Speaker, the Senate committee has finished its deliberations and

the Senate has reconvened. I am expecting a message momentarily from the Senate and the Prime Minister will be here presently. I think it might be possible to continue to see if we cannot conclude in the next few minutes.



MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SECRETARY


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following message:
Ottawa, July 5, 1935.
Sir,
I have the honour to inform you that His Excellency the Governor General will proceed to the Senate chamber to-day at 2.15 p.m. for the purpose of proroguing the present session of parliament.
I have the honour to be sir,
Your obedient servant,
F. L. C. Pereira,
Assistant Secretary to the Governor General.



COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I have the honour to inform the house that the following message has been received from the Senate:
Ordered' that a message be sent to the House of 'Commons to acquaint that house that the Senate do insist upon its first amendment to Bill No. 79, an act to amend the Combines Investigation Act, to which the House of Commons has disagreed, for the following reasons:-That the whole intent and purpose and letter of the Combines Investigation Act has to do with the restriction of trade and commerce, and the bill in many other particulars shows that it is carefully and strictly following out that purpose. It deviated from it only in this one point. Its constitutional justification is trade' and commerce.
And that the Senate do not insist upon its third amendment to which the House of Commons has disagreed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: As will be remembered, the Senate yesterday afternoon suggested amending our bill by adding after the word "combination" the words "having relation to any commodity which may be the subject of trade or commerce." In view of the explanations that have been given and the reasons that have now been read, it would appear that a combination within the terms of this statute contemplated some dealing with a commodity. Plumbing, to which an hon. member referred yesterday is a service, but I am now informed that it had also to do with plumbing fixtures in connection with the combination where an effort was being made to operate

Supply Bills
illegally. Under these circumstances I am disposed to move that the house concur in the amendment of the Senate. The third amendment to which reference has just been made is that in which we indicated to the Senate our desire to continue the use of the word "likely" rather than the word "designed.". The Senate has now agreed to that word remaining as it was in the bill as it left the house. I think that is all the matter that was not disposed of yesterday. I move second reading and concurrence in- the first amendment by the Senate to Bill No. 79.
Motion agreed to; amendment read the second time and concurred in.



CANADIAN GRAIN BOARD


Richard Bedford Bennett: Bill No. 98, to provide for the constitution and powers of the Canadian grain board, has been considered by the Senate, and on page 4 at line 12, the words "as speedily" have been stricken out. That means that as regards the disposition of the accumulation in the hands of the Canadian Cooperative Wheat Producers Limited, the wheat represented by such contracts is to be disposed of "as may be reasonably possible, having regard to economic and other conditions."
On page 4, line 49 dealing with the investigations of the operations of the grain exchange, it is provided that this is "with the approval of the governor in council," because otherwise continuous investigations might make it impossible for them to carry on their business. I see no objection to these amendments, although I would have preferred that the words remain as they originally were, but the committee heard the presentation of the case from two angles this morning. The third amendment that was suggested has not been made, and under the circumstances I would move that the Senate amendments be read a second time and concurred in.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Richard Bedford Bennett: The Senate is still dealing with our trade commission bill. They have sent their reasons for disagreeing with the motion we adopted this morning, and the clerk of the Senate bells me that it will be a minute or two before their consideration is completed. I cannot do anything to expedite it beyond what I have done.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Will that be the last order of business, when we conclude supply?


Richard Bedford Bennett: As far as I know.



WAYS AND MEANS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. E.N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved the second reading of Bill No. 116, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending March 31, 1936.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: 
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I think my right hon.
friend will find that that has been common to money bills for many years, and has not been Changed in any respect.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed'.
Mr. RHODES moved the second reading of Bill No. 122, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial, year ending the 31st March, 1936.
He said:	This is the bill founded upon
the supplementary estimates.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I have the honour to inform the house that a message has been received from the Senate with respect to Bill No. 86, as follows:
(1)	That in respect of section 14 the Senate agrees to the insertion of the word "unanimous" between the word "the" and the word "opinion."
(2)	That the Senate does not insist on the amendment made to section 20 of the bill, but strikes out section 20 and substitutes therefor the following in lieu thereof:
"20. The commission shall receive complaints respecting unfair trade practices and may investigate the same and, either before or after an investigation, if of opinion that the practice complained of constitutes an offence against any dominion law prohibiting unfair trade practices, may communicate the complaint and such
Prorogation

evidence, if any, in support thereof as is in the possession of the commission to the attorney general of Canada with a recommendation that all persons who are parties or privies to such offence be prosecuted for violation of the applicable act. The attorney general of Canada, if he concurs in such recommendation may refer it with such complaint and such evidence, if any, either to the Director of Public Prosecutions or to the attorney general of the province *nothin which the offence is alleged to have been committed for such action as may seem to be appropriate in the circumstances."
(3)	That the Senate does not insist on its amendment at the end of line 29 in section 21.
(4)	That the Senate does not insist on its amendment new section 28.
_ (5) That the Senate does insist on the deletion of section 26 for the reason that said section contemplates a revision of dominion company issues in certain cases by the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission and that consequently sucli commission would require a staff of competent experts in this special line to intelligently discharge their duties and that in this regard the commission would become a duplication of provincial commissions already created for similar purposes and clothed with ample power to protect the public in respect of these matters.
Further, the Senate is of opinion that the exercise or non-exercise of the right on the part of the Secretary of State to have such issues reviewed, or not have them reviewed, would be regarded by the public as the taking of responsibility by the Secretary of State for the capital structures of companies no matter what safeguards or precautionary provisions are inserted, and that this is most undesirable.


Hugh Guthrie: With regard to Bill No. 86, to establish a dominion trade and industry commission, which has just, been returned from the Senate, I move the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is obviously impossible at this time to consider these amendments as they should be considered. Under the circumstances existing I shall offer no objection to concurrence.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.


Hugh Guthrie: If my motion needs the words added that a message be sent to the Senate, then I will include those formal words.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: If the amendments are concurred in, I think that ends the matter.



PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major A. R. Thompson, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Excellency the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
fMr. Speaker.]
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber.
In the Senate chamber, His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to give, in His Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bills:

[Stage Direction]
An Act to amend the Soldier Settlement Act.
An Act respecting Canadian Marconi Company.
An Act respecting The Sarnia-Port Huron Vehicular Tunnel Company.
An Act for the relief of Dora Eleanor Mathieson Campbell.
An Act to amend The Natural Products Marketing Act, 1934.
An Act to amend The Companies Act, 1934.
An Act respecting Fruit, Vegetables and Honey.
An Act to assist the Construction of Houses.
An Act relating to the application of The Farmers' Creditors Arrangement Act, 1934, in the province of British Columbia.
An Act for the purpose of establishing in Canada a system of Long Term Mortgage Credit for Fishermen.
An Act respecting the establishment of an Exchange Fund.
An Act respecting the Convention of Commerce between Canada and Poland, signed at Ottawa, July 3, 1935.
An Act to amend the Criminal Code.
An Act respecting Radio Broadcasting.
An Act to provide for limiting the Hours of Work in Industrial Undertakings to eight in the day and forty-eight in the week, in accordance with the Convention concerning the application of the principle of the Eight Hour Day or of the Forty-eight Hour Week adopted by the General Conference of the International Labour Organization of the League of Nations, in accordance with the Labour Part of the Treaty of Versailles of 28th June. 1919.
An Act to amend The Dominion Elections Act, 1934.
An Act to amend the Combines Investigation Act.
An Act to provide for the Constitution and Powers of the Canadian Wheat Board.
An Act to establish a Dominion Trade and Industry Commission.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the Dublie service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1936.
An Act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of the financial year ending the 31st March, 1936.
To these bills the royal assent was pronounced by the Clerk of the Senate in the following words:
In His Majesty's name His Excellency the Governor General doth assent to these bills.
Then the Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons addressed His Excellency the Governor General as follows:
May it please Your Excellency:
The Commons of Canada have voted supplies required to enable the government to defray certain expenses of the public service.

Governor General's Speech
In the name of the Commons, I present to Your Excellency the following hills:-
Acts for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending March 31, 1936.
To which bills I humbly request Your Excellency's assent.
To these bills the Clerk of the Senate, by command of His Excellency the Governor General, did thereupon say:
In His Majesty's name, His Excellency the Governor General thanks his loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to these bills.

[Stage Direction]
After which His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to close the sixth session of the seventeenth parliament of the Dominion of Canada, with the following speech: Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
In bringing to a dose the last session of the 17th Parliament of Canada I congratulate you upon the extent and importance of your legislative enactments.
My ministers have for some time been convinced that reforms and adjustments in the existing economic system have become necessary to ensure its more effective and equitable operation. Throughout the world there is a new approach on the part of governments to financial and economic problems, and I confidently believe that the Economic Council of Canada, for which you have provided, will in the future become an important factor in the government service for the correlation of information and scientific investigation.
By the Natural Products Marketing Act, enacted at the last session of parliament, you provided for investigations into costs, price spreads, trade practices and other matters related to the production, marketing and processing of natural products.
During the present session you have amended that statute and the Combines Investigation Act; the. Companies Act and the criminal code; and provided for the establishment of a dominion trade and industry commission. These measures will ensure to investors security against fraud; to the producer and distributor, the elimination of unfair practices, to the consumer higher standards of products, and to the dominion a condition of healthy competition in industry. The provision made for the appointment of a director of public prosecutions ensures the enforcement of these enactments.
By the legislation enacted respecting minimum wages, hours of work and weekly rest, the parliament of Canada has made an important advance in the field of social legislation. These measures are of great importance because of their bearing upon economic conditions throughout the country and because they represent Canada's determination to maintain fair and humane conditions of labour for men, women and children in keeping with the national obligations under the treaties of peace and the conventions adopted by the general
conference of the International Labour Organization of the League of Nations, to which Canada subscribed.
Through the action of my government, in cooperation with the financial institutions of the country, Canada enjoys the most favourable interest rates in its history. The provision which you have made for loans to farmers at low interest rates, and the measure which you have enacted during the last session of parliament respecting farmers' indebtedness have improved their economic condition. The amendments made to these measures during the session will further extend their benefits. You have also made provision for assisting fishermen by establishing a system of long term mortgage credit.
The enactment of the measure relating to unemployment and social insurance will, through the establishment of a national labour exchange service, provide for dealing more effectively with the problem of seasonal and other unemployment, and will afford the means whereby Canadian workers can, with the assistance of the government, make provision for their own security.
Following a conference with the representatives of all the provinces my ministers have decided to appoint a royal commission to make a thorough investigation of our national health problems with a view to proposing a definite plan for the cooperation of federal and provincial authorities in a national health policy.
The measures which you have taken to provide for public works and undertakings throughout Canada, to authorize the guarantee of certain railway equipment securities, and to assist in the construction of houses will, it is confidently believed, do much to stimulate industry in the building trades throughout the country and create employment.
The action which you have taken during the past few years to raise prices paid to wheat producers gives effect to the policy adopted at the Empire Economic Conference held at Ottawa and the World Economic Conference held at London. By your action in providing for the Canadian Wheat Board' that policy will be continued.
The provisions which you have made for the revaluation of gold and an exchange stabilization fund constitute an important effort to restore normal exchange conditions throughout the world and make possible a greater volume of international trade.
Important amendments have been made to the Income War Tax Act, and provision has been made for the rehabilitation of drouth and soil drifting areas in the prairie provinces. Other measures include the relief act and an act to amend and' consolidate the acts relating to patents of invention.
During the session my government tabled the additional protocol to the trade agreement between Canada and France, which provides for the extension of further tariff concessions by each country to the products of the other. You have approved a convention of commerce between Canada and Poland, by means of which it is hoped to increase the trade between the two countries on mutually advantageous terms. A modus vivendi was also concluded' with the republic of Haiti, and the New Zealand trade agreement has been extended.
Governor General's Speech
[Stage Direction]
Members of the House of Commons:
I thank you for the provision you have made for the public service.
Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
You have reason to rejoice in the proud position which Canada enjoys as a member of the British commonwealth of nations. The world-wide celebrations commemorating the twenty-fifth anniversary of the accession to the throne of His Majesty have impressed the whole world with the unity and solidarity
of the Empire, the devotion and loyalty of its peoples to the crown and the extent of its influence for peace and security.
My official connection with Canada is drawing to a close. My interest in the dominion, however, will not terminate with my departure from its hospitable shores. I shall continue to watch its progress and development with deep and abiding interest and the sincere hope and belief that, under God's Providence, it will ever increasingly prosper.
This concluded the sixth session of the seventeenth parliament.
Ottawa: Printed by J. O. Patenaude, I.S.O., Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty, 1935.