1935-06-28

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following letter:
Ottawa, June 28, 1935.
Sir.-I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Sir Lyman P. Duff, Chief Justice of Canada, acting as deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber this day at 4.30 p.m. for the purpose of giving the royal assent to certain bills.
F. L. C. Pereira, Assistant Secretary to the
Governor General.



PARLIAMENTARY ASSOCIATION


Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) :: The Empire Parliamentary Association, United Kingdom branch, have extended an invitation to representatives of either house of this parliament who are members of the association to visit England during the next month. The invitation has also been extended
fM. Pouliot.]
to the clerk of the bouse who is honorary secretary of that association, and inasmuch as he is the servant of the house and not of the government, in order that his absence may be regularized, I should like to move, seconded by the former Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe):
That leave of absence be given Arthur Beauchesne, clerk of the house, for the remainder of the session.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I desire to say a word of explanation with respect to order No. 6 under government orders with regard to Bill No. 21, to provide for limiting the hours of work in industrial undertakings to eight in the day and forty-eight in the week, in accordance with the convention concerning the application of the principle of the eight hour day or of the forty-eight hour week adopted by the general conference of the international labour organization of the League of Nations, in accordance with the labour part of the treaty of Versailles of the 28th June, 1919. In the certificate that went to the Senate accompanying the message, it is indicated that the Commons had agreed to all the Senate amendments except as regards the consequential amendment which I moved, to amendment No. 9. In the motion that is recorded in our house it appeared that we agreed to eight amendments, did not agree to amendments Nos. 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14. and moved our consequential amendment with respect to number 9. The Senate, taking the fact from the message and not from the certificate, sent back to this house the bill to have amendments Nos. 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14 dealt with by the house. I went over those amendments fully at the time they were before the house and said that we concurred in them as they were not matters of importance, but in order that the matter may now be regularized owing to the' conflict between the certificate and the motion as recorded, I move:
That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house agrees to the amendments Nos. 10, 11. 12, 13 and 14 made by the Senate to the Bill No. 21, an act to provide for limiting the hours of work in industrial undertakings to eight in the day and forty-eight in the week, in accordance with the convention concerning the application of the principle of the eight hour day or of the forty-eight hour week adopted by the general conference of the international labour organ-

Dominion Day Adjournment
ization of the League of Nations, in accordance with the labour part of the treaty of Versailles of the 28th June, 1919, without any amendment.
And_ that the clerk of the house do carry the said message to the Senate.
We have not dealt, nor does this propose to deal with the consequential amendment which I moved the other day in regard to Senate amendment No. 9, and with which the Senate has indicated it does not agree. That means a conference or further action between the two houses. I am leaving that for the moment and will endeavour to dispose of it at the next sitting when I am further informed in connection with it. But in order that there may be conformity between the motion and the certificate, I am moving the motion aforesaid.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: I well remember that when the Prime Minister made that motion the other day he made it clear that we were agreeing with all the amendments made by the Senate except the one in regard to the time when the law would come into force as regards railway employees. With respect to that particular matter, do I understand that the government have not reached any decision as to what stand they will take?


Richard Bedford Bennett: We shall have to have a conference.


Ernest Lapointe: Then my right hon. friend wants to persist in the decision of the house?


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is not finally settled. I wish to discuss it further with the leader of the Senate, who is not there to-day.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If the house will direct its attention to Bill No. 99, and to the votes and proceedings of this house indicating the action of the Senate I think they will agree that we cannot possibly accept the so-called amendment of that chamber. It will be recalled that Bill No. 99 of this house provided for the extension of the provision of the Canadian Radio Broadcasting Act of 1932, chapter 35, statutes of 1932-33 as amended by chapter 24 of the statutes of the present session, until March 31, 1936. There was an extension until June 30, 1935, but the Senate when it received the bill proceeded to provide that the whole radio set up, the measure known as the radio statute^ should only last until next March. Of course that is not an 92582-258
amendment, that is a declaration- of policy entirely at variance with that which the government has declared time and again to this house. I therefore move, seconded- by Mr. Guthrie:
That the house inform their honours that we are unable to agree to their amendments, inasmuch as they have made a declaration of policy not consistent with the avowed policy of the government, and that they insist upon the bill as it left this house being enacted.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: It is moved by Mr. Bennett, seconded by Mr. Guthrie.
That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house disagrees with their amendments to Bill No. 99, an act respecting radio broadcasting, for the reasons set forth by the Prime Minister, and that the clerk of the House carry the said message to the Senate.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by -the Senate to Bill No. 62, to amend the Soldier Settlement Act.
He said: The Senate made a slight amendment to this measure, providing that instead of it coming into force on the day on which it was assented to, as it would, it should come into force on the first of July. If the house agrees to that proposal, as I ask it now to do, we will endeavour to have -the act assented to this afternoon so that it will begin on the first day of the month-, thereby making it, simpler from the standpoint of superannuation- and keeping the books of the country.
Motion- agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Right H-on. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) : Mr. Speaker, the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King) yesterday asked a question- with respect to Monday, and I told the house I would endeavour to ascertain what- progress was being made by the committee dealing with the grain board bill, so that we would know just what our position is. The Senate yesterday indicated that it would not sit on Monday. The legislation- before that body has not been completely dealt with at this moment. It would therefore seem to be clear that the
bevised EDITION
Dominion Day Adjournment
[Stage Direction]
Senate on Tuesday will be dealing with that legislation. I believe we may be able to finish the evidence in the grain board bill committee to-day, but that will probably be as far as we shall be able to go. It will necessitate a conference taking place between the members of the committee, if possible on Monday. Inasmuch as the business upon the order paper is very light, involving one measure which will probably not take very long, and the estimates-I am entirely in the hands of the house, but I do not know whether it would be desirable not to sit on Monday under those circumstances, because the Senate will not finish its business until Tuesday.
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Leader of the Opposition):: I gather from
what the right bon. Prime Minister has just said that the government intends to drop the controversial measure, the elections bill, because he refers to only one other measure, that not being controversial. If that is the case it will materially shorten the session and insure speedier prorogation. Also, if the committee dealing with the grain- bill- has still to confer and reach a conclusion -with regard to its provisions possibly the time of all hon. members would be spent more profitably if that committee continued its work and the rest of us looked- on over th-e period of July first. Once that bill is settled I believe I can say on behalf of the opposition that provided the bill I -referred to w-ith respect to thie elections act is withdrawn, the rest of the order paper will not take many hours to conclude.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Of course the bill to amend the elections act will have- to be given second reading, because there are sections in it, such as that in regard to the hours during which advance polls are kept open, and the waiver of preparation of fresh lists for byelections, matters of that sort, which must be dealt with, but those are not controversial. I can say frankly that it is not intended to proceed with the controversial sections, in v-iew of the strong expressions of opinion that came from the other side yesterday with respect to them, although I think possibly most hon. members may have received a small pamphlet from Great Britain in which the whole fate of democracy is regarded as being at stake because th-e will of minorities represents the life of -governments, and pointing out how undesirable that is. But that is a matter with which the minister himself will deal when- he moves second reading of the bill.

If it is acceptable to the house I would confer further with members of the committee, and later without notice, if it is possible, move that when the house adjourns it adjourn until Tuesday afternoon at 3 o'clock. If that meets with the approval- of the house I shall be glad to give some further information about it at that time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In regard to
the elections bill m-ay I say that as far as the part referring to the transferable vote is concerned, the attitude of hon. members on this -side is and has -been that this is not the time to introduce -as farre-aching a departure from our electoral methods as a transferable vote would be. As I stated at the outset it is th-e sectional character of the measure introduced to which we take strong exception. The- question of th-e principle involved in the transferable vote is another matter, one that I think could be taken up to much better effect at the beginning of a new parliament, rather than when the days of an old parliament have expired.
The Prime Minister, I think, will find that hon. members on this side will be in agreement with hon. gentlemen opposite with regard to Monday next, provided we can make the arrangement indicated.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Morand in the chair.
Miscellaneous-
To assist in promoting tourist business in Canada-revote, $52,000.


Mr. YOUNG:: Explain.


Mr. MANION:: This is merely a revote
of the money voted last year. The bills came in too late to be paid last year and this is merely to legalize the payment of those bills out of last year's estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Aviation-
Civil government air operations - for preventive service and other operations- further amount required, $305,000.
Mr. EULER:: I notice that this item includes money for the preventive service, and I should like to ask if that indicates any expansion of the air service for preventive purposes.


Mr. STIRLING:: No, there is to be
no expansion. This is to carry out the work requested of the Department of National Defence and of civil aviation by these other departments.

Supply-Aviation


Mr. BRADETTE:: I should like to ask
the minister if the repairs to government aircraft are made by private corporations in Montreal or if they are carried out by the govenment.


Grote Stirling: I did not catch the first
part of the hon. member's question.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: If my information is
correct a good deal of the repair work on the machines is done by private corporations. I should like to know if that statement is correct.


Grote Stirling: Does my hon. friend refer to the machines owned by the government? Those repairs which can be carried out by our own mechanics are so done. Major repairs and reconditioning are done by aircraft firms capable of doing that work.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Will the minister be
good enough to give the names of those firms, if he has that information at hand?


Grote Stirling: I have not that information under my hand but I shall be pleased to communicate it to my hon. friend.


Mr. DUPUIS:: Mr. Chairman, if you will
allow me to do so I should like to revert to items 330 and 331.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Vincent Dupuis: With the permission of the
committee I should like to refer to them just to obtain some information. I should like to know how many men are in the nonpermanent active militia and how many in the permanent forces.


Grote Stirling: In the permanent force
the number as of May 31, 1935, was 408 officers and 3,104 other ranks. I have not exact similar figures with regard to the nonpermanent active militia, but approximately at that date they numbered 6,939 officers and 44,127 other ranks, making a total of 51,066.


William Daum Euler: Referring again to the preventive service, for some years that service has been under the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I should like to know whether the air service ir. connection with the prevention of smuggling and so on is now under the Department of National Defence or whether it is still controlled by the mounted police.


Grote Stirling: The mounted police.


William Daum Euler: They merely call on the
Department of National Defence to supply the air service, is that it?


Grote Stirling: To supply the planes
and the flying officers.


William Daum Euler: But they are entirely under
the orders and control of the mounted police?


Grote Stirling: Entirely under the
mounted police.


Sir EUGENE FISET:: I note that the
vote for the operation of these planes comes under the Department of National Defence, which carries on the service for other departments. I should like to know from the minister if refunds are made by the other departments to cover these expenditures.


Grote Stirling: The actual flying costs
are charged against civil aviation and are refunded by the Department of Justice.
Mr. MaoINNIS: Does item No. 333 provide for the developing of landing fields?


Grote Stirling: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil Aviation-
Expenses in connection with the control of civil aviation, airways, government and public airports and grants to aeroplane clubs.- further amount required, $497,900.
Mr. GRAY:: Mr. Chairman, this vote increases by over $200,000 the vote in the main estimates. At that time we voted the sum of $250,000 and we are now asked to vote this much larger sum of $497,900. I wonder if the minister would explain the increase and give a brief resume of what has been done by the government in connection with the promotion of civil aviation.


Grote Stirling: Mr. Chairman, due to
the increased use of aeroplanes there is of necessity additional work in the department. Inspection services and investigations consequent upon accidents which have occurred fall to the inspectors of the department. In consequence it is necessary all the time to keep abreast of the work, which has been increasing with considerable rapidity. Then, work is being undertaken to keep abreast of the times with regard to direction beacons. It is hoped very shortly to have radio control of that section between Ottawa and Montreal, for instance, and gradually it is expected that radio direction beams will be erected across Canada,-although that is a long way ahead. Provision is made in the vote for acquiring land at ten different points scattered across the dominion for the purpose of proceeding with the project of having emergency fields across Canada. In the majority of cases crown lands either in the right of the dominion or in the right of the provinces have been available, and by arrangement they have been set aside for these emergency fields. Hitherto with the exception of cleaning, clearing, level-
Supply-Aviation

ling, a certain amount of drainage and the building of certain roads and fences little has been done. In various parts of Canada relief camp workers have been used for that purpose. There are ten places, four being in the province of British Columbia, three in Quebec, one in Nova Scotia, one in New Brunswick and one in Ontario, where it is thought desirable to begin work on what eventually will be emergency fields in a chain right across Canada.
Then, in connection with stores and equipment there is a sum for the purchase and installation of the lighting equipment on the two sites to which I have referred, and provision for the purchase of high frequency transmitters and receivers, and other pieces of machinery of that description, to get on with the transmitting of the beams.


Ross Wilfred Gray: Where is the emergency field
located in the province of Ontario?


Grote Stirling: At Vankleek Hill.


Eugène Fiset: At what points in
Quebec?


Grote Stirling: At Oka, Windsor Mills
and Pontiac.


Mr. REID:: And British Columbia?


Grote Stirling: At Chilliwack, Cowley,
Macleod and Langley Prairie.


William Daum Euler: The item refers to grants
to aeroplane clubs. I was under the impression that the department loaned certain aeroplanes to these private aeroplane clubs. Does this imply that cash grants are given, as well, and, if so, how much; and how many aeroplanes are now on loan, if we may so describe it, to these private clubs?


Grote Stirling: The agreement arrived
at between the department and the aeroplane clubs has been reviewed, and the aeroplanes granted to the existing clubs were granted at the same time. They have had little done to the planes, and they are almost on their last legs.


William Daum Euler: How many are there out on loan?


Grote Stirling: I believe there are about sixteen. I cannot lay my hand on the information at the moment, but I should be very glad to get it for the hon. member.


William Daum Euler: Are there any cash grants?


Grote Stirling: Yes, there is a cash grant as well as the undertaking to supply a machine for the use of the club, provided the club supplies one, making a total of two machines. I shall send the hon. member the

statement which has been prepared in this connection. I had it in my other book of estimates, but it is not before me now.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Prior to 1931 there was considerable activity in connection with repair work at Lemieux island. Some of the men who worked there during the winter of 1930-31 were fired, on a plea of economy, and have been out of work. A few moments ago I learned from the minister that much of the repair work is now being done by private firms. Could he explain why the men were fired-I think that is the word for it- and were not taken back to work when as a matter of fact the government has found it possible to spend thousands of dollars on repairs done by private firms in Montreal and Toronto?


Grote Stirling: At what field?


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Lemieux island; a
skeleton staff still exists there, but many of tlhe old hands have been out of work since 1931.


Grote Stirling: The smaller repairs which can be done by our own mechanics are so done. However if and when reconditioning is necessary, or if as the result of an accident considerable repairs are necessitated which cannot be done by our own mechanics the work is handed out to certain companies who specialize in repairs to these machines.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: How many men are
working at Lemieux island to-day? Are there more there to-day than there were in 1930-31, or are there less?


Grote Stirling: I have not that information at the moment, but I shall get it.


Mr. MacINNIS:: Will any of the work
done under this appropriation be done by relief labour?


Grote Stirling: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS Public Buildings-Ontario
Belleville-building for entomological branch, $60,000.
Fort Erie-public building, $50,000.
Kingsville-public building, $25,000.
Kirkland Lake-public building, $92,000.
Powassan-public building, $13,000.
Richmond Hill-public building, $30,500.
Toronto-postal station " K," $194,000.
Watford-public building,	$10,000-Total,
Ross Wilfred Gray: While the town of Forest is
not in my constituency may I say that I have had numerous communications from the

Supply-Public Works-Buildings
citizens of that town with respect to an item for a building of a post office which they understood would appear in the supplementary estimates. I know there is provision for an expenditure in the town of Watford, and I should like to know why provision is not made for an expenditure in Forest?


Hon. H. A. STEWART (Minister of Public Works):: Mr. Chairman, I recall the request
having been made for this building, but it is in the same position as many others. We have had requests for similar buildings from all parts of Canada and they have been so numerous that we have been unable to meet them all. We have made the selection which under the circumstances we believed best. That is the reason this one has been left out.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: I am pleased to note that a certain amount is to be spent in northern Ontario. Will the minister tell the house what amount will be spent in Kirkland Lake?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: If this item carries, plans will be prepared and public tenders asked for under the provisions of the Public Works Act. This being in the Tegular estimates it comes under the Public Works Act, and therefore public tenders will be invited and the contractor will be subject to the provisions of the specifications, which require him to employ a reasonable amount of local labour where available and a reasonable number of returned soldiers.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Is that a post office?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It will cover all public services there, post office and others.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Manitoba
Beausejour-public building, $11,000.
Birtle-purchase of building for postal purposes, $2,000.
Giml'i-public building, $12,000.
Melita-public building, $20,000.
Roblin-public building, $20,000 - Total, $65,000.
Mr. BEAUBIEN:: Some time ago I asked the Minister of Public Works to open his heart and do something for constituencies represented by members who are not supporters of the government. So far as Manitoba is concerned, not one riding represented by a member on this side is included in this item. I do not think the minister will come back to a parliament in which there are many members opposite from Manitoba, so that he might as well treat every constituency equally. When he came into power he cancelled tenders that had been called for by the department for the construction of post
offices in certain districts in my riding, and I should have thought, when he was so lavish in building post offices in other districts, he would have put up some of these buildings in my constituency, especially when the money had been voted for the purpose. There is no reason for this discrimination; the needs of all ridings should be taken into consideration. If the minister will consult the files he will find that the town of Morris, Manitoba, which is a very important point, has been asking for a post office for some years. The request has come from boards of trade and others concerned, and I think he might have included it in the supplementaries. I hope it is not too late for the government to do something, because their time is up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Saskatchewan
Kindersley-public building, $20,000.
Watrous-public building, $20,000-Total, $40,000.
Mr. VALLANCE:: What is the type of work proposed to be put up in Kindersley and Watrous?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: These buildings are for postal purposes. As regards Watrous, the site was purchased in 1933-34 at the corner of Second avenue and Main street. It is a one and a half storey brick structure, and the estimated cost of the building is $16,000; fittings $2,000; grading of sidewalk $1,000 and contingencies $1,000, making a total of $20,000. The same thing applies to Kindersley.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Alberta
Calgary-barracks for permanent force, $400,000.
Cardston-public building, $49,000.
*Claresholm-purchase of building for public purposes, $5,000.
Edmonton-building for Department of Pensions and National Health. $62,000.
Innisfail-purchase of building for postal purposes, $4,000.
Lacombe-purchase of building for postal purposes, $7,500.
Okotoks-purchase of building for postal purposes, $4,500.
St. Paul-public building, $15,000-Total, $547,000.
Ross Wilfred Gray: IIow'much has been expended on the barracks at Calgary to date, and what will be the total cost when completed?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am afraid I cannot give that information, because, as my hon. friend will recall, the work was undertaken under the provisions of the Public Works Construction Act, 1934, which pro-

Supply-Public Works-Buildings
vided that the items in the schedules were to be assigned to departments of government. They were not all under the control of the Public Works department, this work having been assigned to the Department of National Defence. The work out there has been carried on by them, and this department is without information as to expenditures. I think the information was pretty well given in connection with the public Works Construction Act. We had a long debate at that time.


Ross Wilfred Gray: Can the minister explain why this vote of $400,000 is not continued under the Public Works Construction Act? Why is it introduced into the supplementaries? It seems strange that when $1,250,000 was voted for the barracks at Calgary and, as the minister has said, it came under the National Defence department in connection with the Public Works Construction Act, 1934, we should now be asked to vote this sum in the supplementary estimates. We have objected time and again to these works being taken from one department and split up into Public Works, National Defence and Interior until one cannot find, except by going through the whole of the record, exactly what the works cost. I should like to have a good deal more information than the Minister of National Defence was able to give us at the time we were discussing this particular item a few weeks ago when we learned, after some inquiry, that they were building an officers' mess at a cost of $125,000 and a stable at a cost of $50,000.


Mr. ELLIOTT:: 


Ross Wilfred Gray: I think the minister should be prepared to give us more information now that he is asking us to vote $400,000 in addition to the sum already voted. He should give us the complete details showing what has been expended and how much more these barracks will cost the country by the time the work is completed.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This is not the same unit of work that is being undertaken by the National Defence department. If I remember rightly the contention has been made frequently, and it has been strongly advocated on the other side of the house, that items of this kind should appear in the regular estimates; it has been said that we should be able to pass on them in the regular estimates, specifying what the vote is required for. This is now bringing the ad-fMr. H. A. Stewart,.]
ditional construction under the provisions of the Public Works Act and getting it back where it has been contended all the time it should be.


Ross Wilfred Gray: What is the $400,000 we are now being asked to vote to be used for?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The details are these: one airplane hangar, $135,000; one riding school, $75,000; two four-family terraces, other ranks, married quarters, $74,000; construction of two additional married officer's quarters, $40,000; construction of garages to house twelve motor cars, $6,000; one guard house and service control house, $10,000; surfacing barracks square, $30,000; grading and seeding areas around completed buildings, and contingencies, $20,000; architects' fees, inspection, $10,000: total, $400,000.


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: Will this building be located where the barracks are being built?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: This will be a new 'barracks entirely?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: Has the contract been let?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No.


Charles A. Stewart: There was one let the other day in Calgary.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No contract that has been let has anything to do with this estimate.


Charles A. Stewart: Part of this is being constructed by the Department of National Defence and part by the Department of Public Works?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: Is the Department of the Interior handling any of it?
M,r. STEWART (Leeds): No.


Charles A. Stewart: Will this complete the unit?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I do not know the plans of the Department of National Defence. This is all they have asked for up to this time.


Charles A. Stewart: Is the minister stating that he does not know whether this will complete it?

Supply-Public Works-Buildings


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This is all that has been asked for up to the present. I do not know what- the plans of the Department of National Defence are.


Charles A. Stewart: It is the Department of National Defence which is really in control and the Department of Public Works are taking charge of the construction of this particular unit?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: It seems to me that a lot of money is being spent. Has the Department of Public Works not let a contract to Bennett and White within the past thirty days?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No, not the public works.


Charles A. Stewart: This is the first piece of construction undertaken by the Department of Public Works?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Charles A. Stewart: You are not doing the grading of the grounds?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Anything that is being carried on now is under the supervision of the Department of Public Works.


Charles A. Stewart: Is the building in Edmonton for the Department of Pensions and National Health a new building?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This vote is to provide for the construction of a building to accommodate the Department of Pensions and National Health in order that the various activities of that department may be correlated. In the interests of economy it is thought advisable to concentrate at the Alberta university where a unit was erected some years ago adjacent to the hospital.


Charles A. Stewart: That is at what we call the South Side hospital?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It is another wing at the same hospital.


John Campbell Elliott: Is that being built by the Department of Public Works?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: All the items
in the supplementary estimates will be under the control of the Department of Public Works and subject to the provisions of the Public Works Act.


John Campbell Elliott: And all are in addition
to what was voted under the Public Works Construction Act?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Mr. BURY:: I congratulate the government upon this vote. I have some knowledge of the conditions in Edmonton and for some time additional premises have been required by the Department of Pensions and National Health. Part of the work of this department has been carried on in the post office building and I think it is a splendid thing to have this work carried on in a building close to the hospital.


Mr. GARDINER:: How many will occupy this building?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The memorandum which I have does not indicate the accommodation in that sense.


Robert Gardiner: How many employees
are there?


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: At present the
activities of the Department of Pensions and National Health are carried on at different points in the city. Quite often a doctor or a patient has found it very inconvenient to go to two or three different places and by means of this building the services will be consolidated at one point.


Charles A. Stewart: I notice
$7,500 is being provided for the purchase of a building for postal purposes at Lacombe; is there not a post office at that point?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The present
building is rented and this vote is to provide for the purchase of a building and its fitting up. The building to be purchased was previously occupied by the Royal Bank.


John Campbell Elliott: I notice that most of
these items are for the purchase of buildings and I suppose that that will relieve unemployment.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: These votes are
to provide needed public services.


John Campbell Elliott: Does the minister know
of any buildings in that district which are not being purchased under this item?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I fancy there
are a good many.


Mr. HEAPS:: Upon whose recommendations are these buildings being purchased?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: On the recommendation of the officers of this and the Post Office Department. These recommendations are made after full investigation as to the needs for such services in the locality.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Public Works-Buildings
British Columbia
Armstrong-public building, $12,500.
Lilloost-public building, $10,000.
Salmon Arm-public building. $20,000.
Sidney-public building. $12,000.
Victoria-public building, $300,000-Total, $354,500.
Thomas Reid: Could the minister state for
what purposes these buildings are being erected?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: With the exception of the one at Victoria which is for postal and other government sendees, they will be for post office purposes.


Thomas Reid: Has the minister had an inspection made of the post office at New Westminster about which I have protested for many years?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Recommendations have been made for the improvement of the building at New Westminster by means of an extension or addition. This can be taken care of under another item.


Thomas Reid: I note the minister is calling
for tenders for the construction of a building for customs and immigration purposes on the Pacific highway. The estimate of this building is being placed at $30,000 but I have pointed out that such a building will not be adequate to handle the traffic at that point. Has the minister any information as to what amount will be spent upon this building?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I have not
those particulars before me and I thought I gave very full information on that item when the Public Works Construction Act was under consideration. I believe we have just invited tenders but a contract has not been awarded.


Thomas Reid: I know the minister gave full information but I pointed out that the customs .building on the American side had cost about $150,000 whereas the department was providing only $30,000 for a building on the Canadian side. I pointed out at that time that $30,000 would not construct or complete a building in keeping with its importance. Does the contract now called for contemplate any further expenditure?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I recall now
that my hon. friend made similar representations on another occasion. Of course we are confronted with two conflicting demands: on the one hand to curtail expenditures, balance the budget and effect as much economy as possible; on the other to construct beautiful and expensive buildings. We cannot hope to compete with the United States with a population of 120,000,000, in the character of some of our buildings. We do however endeavour 
to make the buildings suitable for the services which they are required to give the community, and at the same time we try to pay some attention to architectural appearance and beauty. But I do not think we would be justified in putting up on this site on the border a building that would cost as much as the one on the United States side, simply to make it correspond.


Mr. REED:: I may point out that that port of entry is the most important one in the whole of Canada. There is not another port from Halifax to Vancouver that has as many cars or as much traffic through it as has that port.


William Daum Euler: Which one?


Thomas Reid: The one on Pacific highway.
I quoted the figures the last time I spoke.
Mr. HACIvETT: It is the largest port of entry in British Columbia but not in Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Generally
Flags for dominion public buildings-further amount required, $1,000.
Ottawa-remodelling switchboards, $4,500.
Post Office equipment, $14,000.
Tractors for postal purposes-further amount required, $3,000-Total, $22,500.
Edward James Young: In this appropriation there is an item of $14,000 for post office equipment and another of $3,000 for tractors for postal purposes. Why are these items in the Public Works estimates and not in those of the Post Office Department?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I do not know
for how long, but for a very long period items of this character have appeared in the Public Works estimates and we have purchased these machines for the Post Office Department.


Edward James Young: Is all the equipment for the Post Office Department purchased by the Department of Public Works?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The Post Office Department purchase their mail bags, stationery, locks and small rural mail boxes themselves. These items are for sorting cases and other equipment, desks and so forth.


Edward James Young: Do they pay any rent for
the buildings they occupy?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No.


Edward James Young: What about fuel?
Mr. STEW'ART (Leeds):	We purchase
the fuel for them. No department of government is charged rental for any space occupied by it, and the fuel for public buildings is purchased through the Public Works department.

Supply-Public Works-Harbours


Edward James Young: Water and light the same?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: All these services are on the same basis.


Edward James Young: Janitor service also?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Edward James Young: And repairs.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes.


Edward James Young: I notice on the next page there is an item of S119,000 for mail subsidies to steamships. Is that also paid by the Public Works department?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No, by Trade and Commerce.


Edward James Young: In any case it is not paid by the Post Office Department. Does the minister not think it would be better if every department were made to stand on its own feet, if all the expenditures of each department were charged against it? We are told on every hand that the post office is an outstanding example of efficient government ownership of a public institution. Now we find that it does not stand on its own feet. It pays no rent, no taxes, nothing for janitor service, fuel, light, water, repairs or equipment. Then we are told that it is a selfsustaining department. Would it not be in the public interest if every department were made to stand on its own feet so that, we might know whether they were paying?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: That is a big question and one that has often engaged the attention of this house. Since I came here I have listened to debates on this subject on different occasions, and I do not know that the question is any nearer being settled than it was some years ago. It would quite suit the Public Works department if every department were put on its own feet, but I am afraid if that were done, the hon. gentleman would have to pay more than two cents on his letters.


Edward James Young: We are paying more than that now.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I mean three cents.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I think the contention of the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Young) is quite right that the various departments of the public service should stand on their own feet so that we might know exactly how they
come out at the end of the year. The same thing applies to public utilities under the control of the government. It is a most inefficient way of doing business when we have the estimates, say of the Post Office Department, scattered throughout the pages of the estimates that come before us, and it would be a much more efficient way of doing the business of the country if we could have a properly prepared statement in regard to the Post Office Department showing exactly the total income and total expenditure. That would include the value of the buildings, their depreciation, the services which the government are giving to the buildings. If we are losing money on them on the basis of a two-cent or three-cent service, we have a right to know how much we are losing. If we are making money, we have a right to know how much we are making. As matters stand, we do not know whether we are losing or making money.
The minister has said that this question has been debated by the house on many different occasions. Is it not possible that even at this late hour in the session something could be done whereby, in another parliament, whoever happens to occupy the minister's place, might be able to give a clear outline of what these services cost the government. It would not be such a difficult task to bring all these items of income and expenditure under one heading under the Post Office Department instead of under a number of departments.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours 'and Rivers-Quebec
Anse au Griffon (river)-improvements to jetties-to complete contract-revote, $3,500.
Levis-wharf, $134,000.
Lome dry dock-improvements, $40,000.
Rimouski-rebuilding track foundation on wharf, $06,200.
Roberval-breakwater, $40,000.
Sept lies-wharf, $50,000.
St. Gregoire de Montmorency-protection wall, $10.000-Total, $343,700.
Eugène Fiset: Is it the intention
of the department to call for tenders for the works to be undertaken at Rimouski? By the way, I would like to thank the minister in the name of the board1 of trade and the officials of the Canadian National Railways for having complied with their request. But I should like to direct his attention to the faot that this work should be carried forward at the earliest possible moment, because if it is not done immediately, 'this will be a great handicap for the wharf and harbour of Rimouski. The wharf is already clogged

Supply-Public Works-Harbours
with manufactured lumber as well as pulp-wood, and it would be extremely awkward to carry on- that work, especially because at the present time only light engines can go on the wharf. I therefore appeal to the minister to have the work carried forward at the earliest possible date.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and Rivers-Ontario
Byng Inlet-dredging-to complete payments on contract-further amount required, $1,400.
Collingwood-removal of dock, $43,500.
Fort William - harbour improvements

further amount required, $150,000.
Hamilton-warehouse on wharf, $7,500.
Hudson-wharf-further amount required, $4,500.
Little Castor river and Annable creek

contribution to the municipality of the township of Winchester towards dredging Little Castor river and Annable creek, the provincial government to contribute a like amount- revote, $5,200.
Port Arthur - harbour	improvementsfurther amount required, $100,000.
Port Credit-harbour improvements, $20,000.
Thessalon-breakwater, $8,500.
Windsor-warehouse	extension,	$60,000-
Total, $400,600.
William Daum Euler: There is in this appropriation an item of $60,000 for warehouse extension at Windsor. I was under the impression that a public building for post office and customs purposes was built there two or three years ago. I am curious to know whether business has expanded to such extent that an extension has to be added to that new building?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This is. for an
extension to the warehouse on the wharf.


William Daum Euler: Not in connection with
the public building at all?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The public
ouilding is some distance away and not at all connected with this.


William Daum Euler: A warehouse for what?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Freight and
passengers.


Ross Wilfred Gray: What emergency has arisen
that requires an additional $150,000 to the $100,000 we voted in the main estimates at Fort William?


An hon. MEMBER:: Alsk the Minister of Railways.


Robert James Manion: No emergency at all there.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: It is additional dredging in the harbour.


Ross Wilfred Gray: Could1 the minister not foresee it when we were voting the main estimates a month ago?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: This is for reconditioning the harbour, and these 'are days, as my hon. friend will agree, when you cannot see very far into the future.


John Campbell Elliott: In regard to item No. 349 I wonder if the minister found any ridings represented by Liberals in Ontario that required any dredging under this item, and if he would point them out.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: There are not many Liberals in Ontario.


John Campbell Elliott: There will be plenty after a while.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Just digging holes for the Tories.


John Campbell Elliott: This is an example of how my hon. friend thinks public works should be distributed throughout Ontario. He does not seem to be able to find, in all these items, over $400,000, any place where any expenditure should be made in a Liberal constituency. Of course there they do not need it quite as badly, they are probably better represented in this house.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
British Columbia
Fraser river-contribution towards protection work at Rosedale, B.C., $3,500.
Fraser river-north arm-dredging, $30,000.
Port Alberni assembly wharf-replacement of crane-further amount required, $2,000'-* Total, $35,500.
Thomas Reid: Is it the intention of the minister to spend the remaining $245,000 appropriated' for public works on the Fraser river under the unemployment relief bill? There was an appropriation of $300,000 and I understand the money has been spent only to the extent of some $50,000, that is for improvements in the Fraser river. As to the balance, when the program is outlined certain protection work was included; later, on the recommendation of his engineer here, it was cut out.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: A review of conditions on the Fraser river is now being conducted. As my hon. friend knows they are rather difficult, there is a difference of opinion and we have not decided just where or how this money is to be spent. The freshet is just over.


Thomas Reid: It is very true there is a great difference of opinion. I have a copy

Supply-Public Works-Harbours
of a telegram which shows it. I appealed to the minister this year regarding protection work for dyking and I was told that it was not the government's concern and they had no interest in the matter, no responsibility, although the engineer there says that the work that was done did interfere with the channel and throw the water on the dykes.
I have here a copy of a telegram sent me not long ago purporting to come from the minister to Mr. Ladner in which the minister tells him that he will help him out regarding some protection work done there,, but the minister is afraid the work I was appealing for cannot be done.
Department intends to complete protection work between roads 3 and 4 but upper protection work in the vicinity Rice Mills and road 9 are not dominion government concern. The only way I can se they can be dealt with is on basis of unemployment relief as provincial-municipal project submitting and approved by Labour department here on contributory basis.
I think that requires explanation, because the minister told me wrhen I advocated that protection work should be done on the dyke on No. 9 road that it was not a responsibility of the dominion government.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Possibly some explanation is due my hon. friend. I think we understood each other thoroughly when he was speaking to me 'because I had received from him two or three days before that time a letter complaining about erosion at Rice Mills. It was in respect of that and that only that I spoke. The opinion of our engineers is that at that point nothing has been done by the Department of Public Works that contributes to that erosion. I was directing my attention entirely to what my hon. friend had in his mind at that time. I did not mean to convey to him that at every point on the Fraser river conditions were the same, because we do recognize that at some places possibly some works done by the dominion may have produced an effect detrimental to the shore, and we have made contributions in the past and will continue to make them wherever these conditions warrant it. But with regard to the particular site that my hon. friend has in mind we disclaim any responsibility whatever. One engineer may have a certain opinion, but the chief engineer of the department, who has studied the whole matter and has prepared the plans, is convinced that there is no responsibility with respect to the erosion at Rice Mills.


Thomas Reid: Then am I to take it that the engineer in New Westminster, right on the ground, admitted that it was due to work
done by the department, and on that recommendation coming to Ottawa an engineer sitting here said it was not? Is that the situation?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: No, I do not think that is putting the whole case, which I am sure the hon. member desires to do. The chief engineer has been over the river there for years and years, has made an intensive study of it, as my hon. friend knows. The gentleman who made the recommendations has not given the subject that same study, he has only come there recently. I think in fairness to everybody my hon. friend will admit that an engineer who has gone out and studied the river over a period of years should be in a better position to give an accurate and expert opinion than one who has not given it the same study.


Thomas Reid: I cannot agree, because the present engineer out there has been on the job for a year, he has been up and down the river, he has seen the works constructed in 1926 and 1928 which diverted the stream, and I doubt if the chief engineer has visited the Fraser river during the past four or five years. The engineer on the job knows the exact situation on the river and the engineer sitting in Ottawa does not. I say after the experience I have had with some of the engineers in Ottawa that they are not just as friendly to the Fraser river as they should be.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Again I say my hon. friend has not a full appreciation of the situation. I have been in the department nearly five years now, and I know that there is no work in the department about which the chief engineer and the staff here are more concerned than about conditions on the Fraser river. Conditions there are difficult. It is a river that carries a great deal of silt and causes a great deal of trouble, has great variations in flow, and freshets. As my hon. friend knows, a great deal of money has been spent there, dredging has to be carried on continuously and the chief engineer and a minister with any sense of responsibility will not lightly undertake a plan of development that involves an expenditure of millions over a period of years without giving the matter careful study. I assure my hon. friend that the Fraser river is one of the problems that has beeen given very intensive and careful study by everyone concerned with it, both in Ottawa and in the district.


John Campbell Elliott: Do I understand the minister to say that this government engineer
Supply-Public Works

who has made the recommendation referred to has not such experience as would justify the minister in acting on his recommendation?


Hugh Alexander Stewart: The district
engineer on the ground has expressed an opinion that possibly the erosion at this point, Rice Mills, may have been contributed to by some work which we have done. The chief engineer, however, and those at the head office here do not concur in that opinion. This engineer was at Victoria for a long time and he has been at this point for only a year.


John Campbell Elliott: I would suggest that during the short time the minister is in charge from now on he should exercise care in securing engineers in whose judgment he will have some confidence. With respect to the Fraser river I want to say, with great respect to the chief engineer for whose opinions I have the utmost regard, that these questions as to whether or not certain artificial work done in a stream does or does not affect the flow of the water so as to cause damage are almost impossible of definite settlement. I listened with a good deal of attention to what was said by the hon. member for that riding, who has just spoken, and under the circumstances I think consideration should be given to steps that will remedy the difficulty of which he complains.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Telegraph and Telephone Lines-
Saskatchewan and Alberta-telephone line from Athabaska to Mirror Landing, $9,250.
John Campbell Elliott: I wonder if the minister
can tell me how many miles of telephone lines the government have now and how many miles they have disposed of in the last five years.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I am sorry I
cannot give my hon. friend that information. All I can say is that we have been disposing of lines where other services have been provided and where changed conditions have shown that wre were not warranted in continuing them. I shall be glad to send my hon. friend a summary showing exactly what has been accomplished along that line; I think he will find it rather interesting. The annual report of the department would show that, also.


John Campbell Elliott: Of course it will be quite a while before that is available in connection with current matters. I wonder if the minister could give me an idea at the same time as to the prices that have been received per mile for the lines.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Yes, I will give full particulars.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mail Subsidies and Steamship Subventions-
Additional amount required for ocean and coastal subsidies and inspection services, $119,000.
Thomas Reid: I should like to have some
information as to what steamship companies are going to get this money and what service it is for.


Robert James Manion: I think I can give the
information. The Minister of Trade and Commerce is absent, but I have the information here.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Where is he?


Robert James Manion: I do not know where he
is to-day. This amount is divided into a number of subsidies, but I presume my hon. friend is interested only in those concerning the Pacific coast. The Canada-China and Japan service requires an additional amount of $60,000, which goes to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. I think that is the only one on the Pacific coast.


Thomas Reid: That is the company that
already gets $690,000. I should like to know what further service is being given in return for this increased subsidy.


Robert James Manion: I am informed by the
statements before me, which were laid before me just a few moments ago-since I came into the house as a matter of fact-that while as my hon. friend points out the Canadian Pacific receive subsidies, they have been carrying on under very great difficulties in view of the very heavy subsidies of which foreign ships are in receipt. No doubt my hon. friend is aware of the actions that have been taken in the neighbouring republic in the way of increasing their subsidies, and I know we hear many complaints from our steamship companies as to their inability to compete with very heavily subsidized shipping, particularly in the American republic and also in other foreign countries. They claim they simply cannot carry on this service without this additional assistance.


Thomas Reid: That is not the information
I really require.


Robert James Manion: Then I am afraid I do
not understand my hon. friend's question.


Thomas Reid: I know this item will go
through, so I will cut my remarks short. This company has about 480 orientals on board as employees, and only a small proportion of the crew are white men, so I want to protest against this additional subsidy.

Supply-Trade-Subsidies


Abraham Albert Heaps: I should like to ask the
minister whether these shipping companies do not belong to a combine and do not charge the same rates for the same class of freight and passenger service. If that is the case I do not see how the question of subsidies enters into the argument.


Robert James Manion: I think my hon. friend
is entirely wrong in that; I believe he is referring to the North Atlantic combine. This concerns the Pacific, and so far as I am aware there is no such combine there and the same rates are not charged because there is continuous competition in regard to the shipment of Canadian goods to the orient.


Thomas Reid: There is a combine in regard
to lumher and other commodities and the rates are set in San Francisco.
Mr. MA'NION: There are conference rates, but these subsidies go largely in mail services; at least they are paid in the name of mail
services.


Thomas Reid: Is this for mail or is it just
a subsidy to enable this company to carry
on?


Robert James Manion: Without doubt this is a
subsidy to enable them to carry on, but they carry mails as well.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Does the minister
say there is no combine or understanding with regard to rates in connection with coastal shipping?


Robert James Manion: I was not speaking of
coastal services.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This covers coastal services as well.


Robert James Manion: Yes, but the item of which I am speaking, concerning the Canadian Pacific railway, has to do with service to the orient. There are no Pacific coastal services
in this item.


Abraham Albert Heaps: But why should we come to the assistance of these companies that belong to a combine that fixes rates for both freight and passenger (services, whether on the Atlantic or on the Pacific? Why should we assist these combines, which are internationally controlled, by way of subsidies?


Robert James Manion: There is this to remember, that if other countries subsidize their shipping to look after the shipment of goods to foreign countries and Canada does not do so, Canadian shipping will be taken entirely out of our hands and placed in the hands of foreign shippers. We are up against that all the time.
Bn connection with another branch of Canadian service, under the Canadian National, I have had brought to my attention very recently the competition of some United States lines which are very heavily subsidized. This affects our Canadian National ships, and though in that case we do not give a direct subsidy we do pay the deficit, so really it comes to the same thing.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If the rates are the same; if, as the hon. member for New Westminster says, they are fixed in San Francisco and Canadian ships are compelled to abide by the rates set in that way, in other words if a ship sailing from a Canadian port is compelled to abide by rates set in San Francisco, why should we be granting these subsidies? The only question that might .come up would be if the revenue was insufficient in that case I could understand that we might give something towards making up the deficit. The thing I object to at the present time is that we have these international rates on the Atlantic and, to my knowledge, on the Pacific, and these rates are increasing each year while other commodity prices are going dowm. Yet we come along and assist these international combines by giving them subsidies out of public funds.


Robert James Manion: It may be true, as my hon. friend says, that there are conference rates. It is obvious that if powerful American shipping companies receive very heavy subsidies,-as they do-and that if Japanese companies receive subsidies from their country- which they also do-our Canadian shipping without assistance of some kind could not compete with them. It would simply go out of business, and other companies being given assistance would get the trade. We would be forced to the position of allowing our shipping to be handled by foreign ships and probably at a later time we would be forced to accept their rates.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Do the British shipping companies receive subsidies from the British government?


Robert James Manion: Yes, they are heavily subsidized.


Thomas Reid: I realize that the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Hanson) is not in his seat, and that the Minister of Railways and Canals is just helping out. I would point out to him however that further details should have been given because this company is receiving $809,000 per year and as a matter of fact it is using slave labour. When the minister states these moneys are required so
Supply-Trade-Subsidies

as to enable them to compete with oriental or American ships I say we should have details as to the costs. Only the officers on these ships are Canadians or white persons, and the other persons employed axe orientals. These men axe hired in Hong Kong and paid between $5 and $10 per month. Under those circumstances I do not see why we cannot meet Japanese and American competition; yet we vote $809,000 to help them carry on.


Robert James Manion: I have some details before me, but I did not wish to go into them because I did not think it necessary. According to my memorandum however, furnished by the Department of Trade and Commerce, the nine American services received about $5,000,000 in subsidies and the Japanese line received a little more than $770,000. I do not know about the slave labour problem about which the hon. member has been speaking, but I do know that a parliamentary committee of this house considered the matter, I believe on the suggestion of the hon. member.


Thomas Reid: I am sorry the matter did not come finally before the house.


Robert James Manion: It was referred to a parliamentary committee. I believe they made a report and the Department of Trade and Commerce are making an effort to deal with the matter. It is obvious however that if Canadian or British shipping companies pay high wages to white labour and oriental or foreign shipping companies pay very low wages to oriental labour it will be very difficult for Canadian shipping companies to compete. While I do not wish to go into details of the matter it is obvious I believe that competition must to a certain extent govern in matters of this kind.


Thomas Reid: We are paying subsidies, and yet this Canadian company does not hire highly paid labour, as do the American and British ships. They hire slaves.


Robert James Manion: But this company has to compete with the Japanese, who are hiring oriental labour. The Japanese pay a subsidy of about $771,000 and use oriental labour. This company has to compete with them.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Which of these shipping companies works in conjunction with the Canadian National Railways? How does a shipment from the Canadian National Railways go to the orient?


Robert James Manion: I presume it probably goes over Canadian Pacific shipping lines. I think

so, at any rate. H the Canadian National Railways has not a line of its own-and it has not, on the Pacific to the orient-I sincerely hope it would give the business to the Canadian Pacific line, if the rates were satisfactory.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister states that he sincerely hopes. I am given to understand that very frequently on the Pacific route Canadian National freight goes to the orient by Japanese ships. Here we have an anomaly where we are subsidizing the Canadian Pacific shipping on the one hand, to carry freight, traffic and mail and on the other hand we find our own Canadian National Railways competing with the 'Canadian Pacific Railway and cooperating with a Japanese line, against which we are supposed to subsidize the Canadian Pacific line. It seems to me that this whole business is a farce. We all know that the Canadian Pacific Railway is to a great extent only Canadian in name, because the shareholders are scattered throughout the world. I understand that 83 per cent of the shares of the company are held1 outside of Canada. I understand that the officers on the Canadian Pacific ships are to a great extent British, not Canadian, officers. I have no particular quarrel with the employment of British officers, but I point this out to indicate that it is not in any sense a Canadian affair. British officers are used rather than 'Canadian officers. I believe the hon. member for New Westminster is quite correct when he states that Chinese work on the Canadian Pacific line, and that these men have a much lower standard of living than have the Japanese on the subsidized Japanese line. For this reason I say we are maintaining a lower standard of labour than even the orientally owned and subsidized line. I say the whole thing is farcical and before we grant subsidies to the Canadian Pacific we ought to have details from the minister. Expenses on the Canadian Pacific Railway ships ought to be allocated and laid before the house before we are asked to vote subsidies. The Canadian Pacific Railway has no right to come to this parliament and to say, "We cannot get along without this; please give it to us" and give no information in return. It is not fair to ask us to vote subsidies on that basis. Has the minister any figures to give with regard to the cost?


Robert James Manion: No, I have not. I did not expect to be asked Canadian Pacific shipping costs. Even if I had the information I do not believe I could give it. I am informed.

by the officer in front of me that they have certain private information in the Department of Trade and Commerce, but that it is of a private and confidential nature.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This committee
should not be asked to grant subsidies when it does not know the situation existing, and when information regarding it is said to be private and confidential. I protest against that method of disbursing the taxpayers' money.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How many boats of this steamship company sail from Canada to the orient?


Robert James Manion: I am informed they have four mail boats.
Mr. HEAjPS : Four mail vessels. How many sailings do those vessels make?


Robert James Manion: I am told they make twenty-five.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Therefore for twenty-five sailings per year we subsidize to the extent of about $800,000, which means about $32,000 per sailing.


Ernest Lapointe: That is pretty fair.


Abraham Albert Heaps: A3 a mental calculation I conclude that S32.000 is paid for each sailing.


Robert James Manion: The Japanese payment is
a litle more than that. My hon. friend has taken the outside figure. I am informed by the officer in front of me that the Japanese and Canadian ships make about the same number of sailings, and that the Japanese get a little more in the way of subsidy.


Abraham Albert Heaps: It comes down to a question of a fight in regard to subsidies. When one country raises the subsidy I presume we will have to follow suit to keep our business. Is the minister aware of the fact that the whole question of mail subsidies is now under review in the United States?


Robert James Manion: It is under review, but
while under review they are paying the highest subsidies in the world.


Thomas Reid: While it is true that the
Japanese and American ships are subsidized, the fact remains that they hire their own nationals, and we do not. That is a very important factor.


Angus MacInnis: When one knows all the
facts it is amazing to hear the Minister of Railways speak about our Canadian shipping, and particularly when he refers to the Canadian Pacific steamships. I remember last
The Royal Assent
year taking up with the Minister of Labour the matter of certain men employed as engineers on the Canadian Pacific steamships who had been dismissed and replaced by engineers brought to Canada from the old country. In view of the fact, as has been pointed out by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, that 83 per cent of the shareholders of the Canadian Pacific Railway live outside of Canada, and that the crews of these ships are almost entirely composed of Chinese, and that when the ships have to be repaired they are taken to China for such repairs, it is strange to hear an expression of concern about losing Canadian shipping. What have we to lose?-merely the name of the Canadian Pacific Railway. About all the meaning that the term Canadian Pacific Railway has to the people of Canada is the permanent employment of Chinese.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses-* further amount required, $5,000.
John Campbell Elliott: Is this amount supposed
to take care of casualties?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: This is supplementary to item 133, which is a small amount of $8,000 voted in the main estimates.



THE ROYAL ASSENT

[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major A. R. Thompson, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Honour, the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate.
Accordingly, the house went up to the Senate.
Mr. SPEAKER informed the house that the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General had been pleased to give in His Majesty's name the royal assent to the following bills:
An Act respecting The Portage la Prairie Mutual Insurance Company.
An Act to amend the Admiralty Act, 1934.
An Act respecting The Wapiti Insurance Company.
An Act to amend the Juvenile Delinquents Act.
An Act to amend the Criminal Code.
An Act to authorize the raising, by way of loan, of certain sums of money for the Public Service.
An Act to establish an Employment and Social Insurance Commission, to provide for a National Employment Service, for Insurance against Unemployment, for aid to Unem-
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Marine-Miscellaneous
ployed Persons, and for other forms of Social Insurance and Security, and for purposes related thereto.
An Act to amend the Live Stock and Live Stock Products Act.
An Act to amend the Post Office Act.
An Act respecting Fair Wages and Hours of Labour in relation to Public Works and Contracts.
An Act to amend the Income War Tax Act.
An Act to provide for Minimum Wages pursuant to the Convention concerning minimum wages adopted by the International Labour Organization in accordance with the provisions of Part XIII of the Treaty of Versailles and of the corresponding parts of the other treaties of peace.
An Act to amend the Weights and Measures Act.
An Act to incorporate The Community, General Hospital, Alma House and Seminary of Learning of the Sisters of Charity at Ottawa, Canada.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Muriel Mabel
Mutthart.
An Act for the relief of Emile Fossion.
An Act for the relief of Eva Bennett.
An Act for the relief of Helen Gertrude Bryant Wilson.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Gladys Sarah
Jenkinson Weeks.
An Act for the relief of Mary Elizabeth Taylor Nicholson.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Jean Taggart
Harfield.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Lily Ushoroff
Bruker.
An Act for the relief of Hilda High de Boissiere.
An Aot respecting the Bridge across the Second Narrows of Burrard Inlet in the Province of British Columbia.
An Act to amend the Pension Act.
An Act to amend The Dominion Franchise Act.

[Stage Direction]
The house again in committee of supply, Mr. MacDonald (Cape Breton South) in the chair.
Miscellaneous and unforeseen expenses- further amount required, $5,000.
Alfred Duranleau: I was explaining that this item is supplementary to item 133 of the main estimates for S8,000, which is to take care of litigation expenses, and it happens that this year we have a very expensive case in the exchequer court in Vancouver and this sum is necessary to meet the costs of same.


John Campbell Elliott: For some years this vote
has been 88,000 and now you are asking for an additional 85,000.


Alfred Duranleau: As I already told the committee, we have a special case on this year in Vancouver, which entails heavy ex-

penses on account of the distance between Ottawa and the Pacific coast and the importance of the litigation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
River St. Lawrence ship channel dredges- (b) to provide for the maintenance and operation of the government ship channel fleet and government shipyard'-further amount required, $250,000.
James Shaver Woodsworth: Some weeks ago
I asked for certain information which would have enabled me to have a better understanding of this item but although this question was allowed to stand as an order for return, the return has not yet been tabled. I should like to know how many dredges were owned by the department in 1928.


Alfred Duranleau: I am sorry but I
have not that information.


James Shaver Woodsworth: How many were
owned in 1935?


Alfred Duranleau: Offhand I should say about ten or twelve.


James Shaver Woodsworth: When were they
acquired?


Alfred Duranleau: Some years ago;
some were built by the department in the shipyard at Sorel.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What did they
cost?


Alfred Duranleau: That is the trouble. My hon. friend has been complaining of delays in supplying information he has requested from my department. These details are complicated and my officials have not had enough time to pick up all the information. As I told my hon. friend the other day, they are working at it, and as soon as possible it will be laid on the table of the house.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That is not sufficient. Surely if the minister's department is properly organized, he knows how many dredges there are at the present time and what those dredges cost. No minister can tell me that such information is not readily available within the department. It is now three weeks since the information was asked for.


Alfred Duranleau: For the information of my hon. friend as to this item, we are asking for a further amount of 8250,000 in order to complete as soon as possible with our own dredges the cleaning up of the ship channel from the sea to Montreal to a depth

Supply-Marine-Miscellaneous
of thirty-five feet at the level of 1897 or thirty-two and a half feet at the level of October, 1934. That is the only purpose. The work has become more and more pressing on account of the increase in the tonnage of ships coming to Montreal, and as we are anxious, as all Canadians should be, that this channel be completed during this present season of navigation, that is why we are asking for this further amount.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The purpose of submitting these estimates to the house is that the house may be apprised of the necessity of the works proposed to be undertaken. This is a large item amounting to $250,000, and I should like to know a little more about it. The very fact that the minister finds it so hard to give me the information makes me a little bit more curious. How many scows are there at the present time attending these dredges?


Alfred Duranleau: I have not the information at the present time, and I do not think it has anything to do with the vote in question. As a matter of fact this item is not for the purpose of building or purchasing dredges or scows; it is for the purpose of putting into commission dredges and scows owned by my department and which for reasons of economy have been laid up during these last years.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That is the very point. I would like to know how many there are altogether in the fleet.


Alfred Duranleau: In the last two years we have had on the St. Lawrence, only four dredges, two working below Quebec and two above.


James Shaver Woodsworth: How many altogether?


Alfred Duranleau: I have already told my hon. friend that I think we have ten or twelve dredges belonging to the department.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What percentage of the dredging in the St. Lawrence river from Montreal to Quebec has been given to private contractors?


Alfred Duranleau: I have not that information before me, I am sorry. All I know is that we are carrying out the program which was laid down by our predecessors before 1930, and the work on the portion of the St. Lawrence which was left to be completed by the dredges of the department is a little bit 925S2-259
in arrears. That is why I want this further amount to supplement the $1,140,000 voted in the main estimates for our own fleet, in order to complete the cleaning up of the channel between the sea and Montreal.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister has a fleet, but he cannot tell how many ships there are in it or what they cost. Is it to be the policy from now on to do all the dredging by the fleet owned by the department?


Alfred Duranleau: It is not our policy,
because the department does not have power-full enough dredges to do certain works in the St. Lawrence. Our dredges are not all up to date and we have not powerful enough dredges for that purpose. As regards certain works where there is rock for instance, we have tried to do the job with out own dredges, but it was so costly to the department, five or six times more than it would cost under contract, that we had to abandon it. It is the scheme adopted by our predecessors that we are proceeding with.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What is the cost
to the department of supervising the work done by those contractors to whom the minister has just referred?


Alfred Duranleau: As I have told the
committee, I have not the information at hand. I know the department has many engineers surveying the St. Lawrence during the whole navigation season. We have also on contractors' dredges, following the operations and making reports to the department, two or three inspectors, depending on the circumstances. If the dredge is working twenty-four hours a day, we have three inspectors; if it works only during the daytime, we have only two. But as to the amount expended for that purpose, I have not the information before me. I can say to my hon. friend that the supervision is complete and very satisfactory to the departs meat.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Have any government dredges been sold to or used by private contractors?


Alfred Duranleau: Not since I have
been in charge, to my knowledge. I may add this, that since my department has acquired from the Department of Railways and Canals the dredge Churchill, this dredge was put at the disposal of the Saint John dry dock for the demolition of berths one, two, three and four which were burned three or four years ago as my hon. friend will remember. That is the only circumstance



Supply-Marine-Miscellaneous
where a dredge was put under rent or loan to a contractor. When I say "loan," I might explain:	The St. John dry dock company
had undertaken the demolition at cost plus four per cent or five per cent and that dredge was put at their disposal.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Have any dredges
or scows been sold1 to the Quebec harbour commission?	[DOT]


Alfred Duranleau: Not to my knowledge; I do not think so. The Quebec harbour commission might have sold an old dredge, but I do not think the commission has bought any dredge.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Have any floating
scows or rook breakers or stone lifters been supplied to the contractors?


Alfred Duranleau: As I told my hon.
friend a minute ago, I have not the information.


James Shaver Woodsworth: It is rather curious that we are being asked to vote a further amount of $250,000 to provide for the maintenance and operation of the government ship channel fleet and government shipyard, and the minister, after having been asked for this information for some weeks, has apparently not been able so far to ascertain facts that ought to be ascertainable within a few hours in any well organized1 department. I cannot understand the minister taking that attitude. If he wants this $250,000, the least he can do, like other ministers, is to have the information at hand, and I think we are entitled to ask that this item stand until we receive the information. At present we cannot vote intelligently on this item.


Alfred Duranleau: I do not tihink the
fact of lending a scow or other equipment to a private firm or otherwise has anything to do with this item which is to supplement item (b) in vote 139 which concerns our own fleet. It is not for the purpose of purchasing any equipment, dredges, scows, tugs or anything, it is only to put into commission the tugs, scows and dredges we already have belonging to the department, and to pay men to be put on those dredges.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Then on that basis the minister can surely tell me how many dredges they have. If he wants $250,000 more to put them into commission can he not tell me how many we have? Several weeks ago I asked how many we had in 1928, how many in 1929, in 1930, in 1931, in 1932, 1933, 1934 and 1935, and apparently he cannot tell me.


Alfred Duranleau: If the information mentioned by my hon. friend were the only thing asked in his long list of questions he would have had the answer long ago. But there are some details asked which involve a great deal of work by my engineers, and at present the larger number of my engineers are on the St. Lawrence or elsewhere.


James Shaver Woodsworth: This is not a question that, pertains to engineering, and the minister knows that well. The information is in the department, it is a matter of bookkeeping, and the minister could get it within three hours if he wanted to give it. I think we ought to have it before proceeding with this item. A quarter of a million dollars is asked to put certain dredges into commission, and the minister refuses to inform us how many they have and their history.


Alfred Duranleau: I told my hon. friend that we have about ten or twelve. But it does not matter much if we have twenty or twenty-five so far as this item is concerned, because we have only four in commission at the present time, and with this amount I might put one or perhaps two more into cammission. That would make five or six out of ten.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am asking what percentage of work is to be done by these dredges of the department and what percentage is to be done by private contractors.


Alfred Duranleau: Offhand I would say the works were divided almost equally in the scheme of my hon. friend which we are proceeding with. But the department, owing to our equipment not being up to date, and the fact that we have not large funds available, is behind with its work. I would like to have this further amount in order to complete the cleaning up of the channel this season. This work is asked for by the province of Quebec and I think should be approved by all citizens of Canada. It is very important for Canada that large ocean shipping should be brought to the heart of Canada. That is why we want to keep our channel in proper shape.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Can the minister tell me how many firms tendered, for this work?


Alfred Duranleau: From memory I cannot say. I know tenders were asked when that contract was let in May, 1930, by 'the previous administration. My hon. friend knows that the firms equipped to do that sort of work on the St. Lawrence are few.

Supply-Marine-Miscellaneous


James Shaver Woodsworth: How many are
there?


Alfred Duranleau: There might be two or three firms in Canada.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is there more than one firm doing the work?


Alfred Duranleau: Yes, I can tell my hon. friend that there was a main contract and also subcontracts to two other firms, I think. But there are certain works for the execution, of which I do not think more than two firms in Canada have equipment.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What are the names of those firms?


Alfred Duranleau: I think the General Dredging Company Limited had the main contract, and the other firms which had their share of it are, I think, the Canadian Dredging Company and J. P. Porter & Sons, Limited. They are very reliable firms, and the works are done to the great satisfaction of my engineers.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is it proposed that when the dredges are reconditioned the department is to use them itself, or to let them out to one or other of these contractors?


Alfred Duranleau: The policy of this government has been to keep for our own department the equipment we had in 1930. Moreover we have purchased from the Department of Railways and Canals the Churchill, a powerful dredge. She is a,t Saint John at the present time, working at the reconditioning of berths 1, 2, 3 and 4. We do not intend to sell our equipment.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am not speaking of selling, but does the department itself operate its own dredges and scows, or does it on occasion give the use of them under certain conditions to private contractors?


Alfred Duranleau: The dredges and scows which we do not use, on account of the small amounts voted by this house for the last three or four years, have been laid up and kept in a reasonable state of repair.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That is not my question. When this $250,000 is expended and our fleet is reconditioned is it the policy of the department to operate the whole of that fleet itself, or are certain partis of the equipment to be given over to be used by private contractors?


Alfred Duranleau: The policy of this government is to employ our whole fleet when we have a vote large enough for the purpose. We dlo not rent or lend our equipment to any private firm.


John Campbell Elliott: What is this $250,000 for? Is it for repairs to the existing fleet or to operate the fleet?


Alfred Duranleau: The greater part of this amount is to put into commission one or two dredges of the department' which are in a fairly good state of repair. It is to employ more men on our fleet. It may be that small repairs will be necessary, because the vote covers also expenses of the plant at Sorel. But the largest part of this amount is to put into commission one or two dredges.


John Campbell Elliott: We are pretty well along in the dredging season. Has the department decided whether it is one dredge or two in addition to what they have been operating for the last few years ?


Alfred Duranleau: I had asked for a larger amount than this, but obtained $250,000 from the treasury board. I am told by my officials that we might be able to put two more dredges into commission. It may be that we shall have to shorten the season when the amount is exhausted, but we intend to put on two more dredges.


John Campbell Elliott: I have some knowledge of dredging and I want to say that if you intended to do dredging this year the dredges should have been equipped and at work before this. I see that under item No. 139 of the main estimates $1,140,000 was voted for this same purpose, the same vote the minister had in 1934-35. Now he comes along with an additional $250,000 and he does not know whether one or two additional dredges will be required. The minister does not seem to know anything in particular about what is going to be done with this $250,000. I agree with my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre; I think this item should stand until the minister knows something about the number of dredges it is intended to operate and what will be done with this amount of money.


Alfred Duranleau: I have given a fairly good explanation.


John Campbell Elliott: It may be satisfactory to the minister but it is an awfully poor explanation so far as the committee is concerned.


Alfred Duranleau: I am told by my officials that with two more dredges working in

Supply-Marine-Miscellaneous
the channel 'between Quebec and Montreal we may expect the thirty-five foot channel to be completed probably next September. It is our intention to put on these two additional dredges for as long as possible with this amount of money, in addition to the other four dredges that have been in commission since the beginning of the season. I think that explanation should be satisfactory.


Mr. POULIOT:: If I am permitted to butt into this highly technical discussion I should like to ask the minister if it is not true that dredging is much cheaper when it is done by private firms than when it is done with the departmental apparatus, and if that is so I should like to know why.


Alfred Duranleau: I cannot admit the proposition put forward by my hon. friend. It may be so; it all depends on the equipment and the material. Of course a powerful, up-to-date dredge would do more work than another dredge not so powerful. The trouble is that the department has not the powerful dredges needed in certain parts of the St. Lawrence. It may be also that the dredging done by a private firm .may 'be less costly because of the wages paid. The department is supposed to pay better wages than private firms. I do not affirm that fact, but I think that is the case.


Jean-François Pouliot: I understand that what the hon. gentleman has said is just a preface to his answer, and I am waiting for this answer. I asked if there was any reason why it should be cheaper to have dredging done by private firms than by the department. That is my question; it is right to the point, and I should like to have a straight answer.


Alfred Duranleau: I want to be frank with my hon. friend; I think dredging done by private firms costs less to the department than the dredging done by the department, but the department must maintain its dredging because we have a great deal of cleaning up to do in the channel, and we need the fleet for that purpose.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the minister. I am satisfied with his answer.


Robert Gardiner: I suppose the minister has some information as to the yardage that has to come out of the St. Lawrence that must be handled by these large dredges; I presume the engineers of the department have taken soundings in the channel. Can the minister say what yardage must be handled by the large dredges and the approximate yardage that can be handled by the departmental dredges?


Alfred Duranleau: I think I have the information at the department; I am sorry I do not have it here. I can tell my hon. friend that the dredging in the St. Lawrence, under the 1930 contract, has been going on steadily and is now pretty well advanced.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Was not the water in the
St. Lawrence very low this year?


Alfred Duranleau: Yes, at one time, but in the last three weeks the water has come up over a foot and a half, and at the present time the level is very satisfactory.


Robert Gardiner: Would the minister
tell the committee whether the contract entered into in 1930, which is being continued, calls for the completion of the work which the department dredges cannot handle?


Alfred Duranleau: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: Is the contract on the
same price basis as when it was entered into in 1930?


Alfred Duranleau: No, the price has
been lowered by two or three dollars a cubic yard. It has been lowered by at least two dollars for the further hard work.


Robert Gardiner: Was this contract of
1930 let to one company?


Alfred Duranleau: Yes, and part of the contract was transferred to the other firms I have already mentioned.


Robert Gardiner: What company got the
original contract?


Alfred Duranleau: The General Dredging Company, Limited.


Robert Gardiner: And they sublet some
of that contract to other companies?


Alfred Duranleau: I think they have
transferred part of their contract.


Robert Gardiner: Just what proportion
of the contract has been transferred and what are the companies that secured the subcontracts from the original company?


Alfred Duranleau: I could not give the exact figures but I think the two other companies secured nearly one-half the whole job.


Robert Gardiner: Of the original contract?


Alfred Duranleau: The original contract.


Robert Gardiner: Can the minister give
the committee any information as to the price at which these sub-contracts were let?

Supply-Interior


Alfred Duranleau: I am under the impression that it was a transfer of contract. It may be that the company that secured the original contract, being responsible for the work, might have retained five or ten per cent of the amount, but it was practically a transfer of contract.


Robert Gardiner: But in view of the fact that the department let this one continuous contract for all this work surely when subcontracts are made the department must have information not only as to the companies to which the sub-contracts were let but also as to the prices at which they were let, because the minister has stated that the original company must be responsible for the proper completion of the work.


Alfred Duranleau: When we came into
power in 1930 these sub-contracts had been let and the companies were at work. I have not the contracts or sub-contracts here; I would not like to mislead this committee, but I think it was practically a transfer of part of the contract.


Robert Gardiner: If it was a transfer of
part of the contract-and we will accept that explanation-then the minister's department must have been a party to that part of the transfer. Therefore he must have information in his office as to the terms upon which the transfer was made. That is the information I should like to have.


Alfred Duranleau: If the hon. member
desires to have the information I should be glad to supply it; no doubt I can supply it, but I have not the information with me.


Robert Gardiner: Could the minister
have it to-night at eight o'clock?


Alfred Duranleau: I could write the
hon. member and tell him the facts.


Robert Gardiner: Could you get it tonight?


Alfred Duranleau: I do not know; it
is five-thirty, and the office will be closed. I could write, however.


Robert Gardiner: I should like to have
this information before the committee because in my judgment it is very important to have a little more information about dredging contracts in the St. Lawrence. If the minister could see his way clear to let it stand until such time as he could get the information, I would appreciate it very much.


Mr. MITCHELL:: The minister left the
impression that the wages paid by private
contractors were not as high as those which might be paid by the government. I should like to know whether the fspr wages clause is made a part of private contracts.


Alfred Duranleau: The fair wages clause is inserted.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Why is it that they were
paying lower wages than the government were paying?


Alfred Duranleau: I thought they were.


Robert Gardiner: The minister is not
sure.


Alfred Duranleau: For instance, the
captain on a dredge of a private concern might receive a little less salary than a captain on a government dredge; I am not quite sure about it. The wages paid to labourers are the same, because they are under a fair wages scale.


Robert Gardiner: In view of the statement made by the minister to the effect that government dredges could not compete with privately owned dredges because of the fact that they were paying a lower wage scale, I believe we should have further information concerning the vote before we are asked to pass it. Perhaps the minister would accede to the reasonable request that the item stand until the information is received.


Alfred Duranleau: I have no objection.
Item stands.



DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

[Stage Direction]
International boundary commission-expenses connected with the maintenance in a state of effective demarcation of the international boundary-revote, further amount required, $6,819.42.
Thomas Reid: May we have information regarding this vote? I ask at this time because two boundary marks were placed on the international boundary at Temiahmoo Bay, and I was wondering whether or not the department would complete those international boundary marks. As is known, the cost is borne by both the United States and Canada.


Hon. T. G. MURPHY (Minister of the Interior):: Does the hon. member refer to
the marks at Boundary Bay?


Thomas Reid: Yes.


Thomas Gerow Murphy: This item is for that
expenditure. The Department of Public Works were erecting those marks and were not able to complete them by March 31 this year. This is a revote to enable them to pay for the completion of the work.
Supply-Mines


Thomas Reid: I appreciate the minister's reply, and I know it will be appreciated out there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines Branch
For investigations of mineral resources and deposits; of the mining and metallurgical industries, and of mineral technology; wages, and expenses of testing and research laboratories; for publications, English and French; for purchase of books and instruments; for miscellaneous assistants and contingencies; and for investigations by the dominion fuel board, including salaries and all other expenses- further amount required, $10,000.
Milton Neil Campbell: 
Mr. RHODES:: I shall be pleased to undertake the forwarding to the minister of the hon. member's remarks.


Jean-François Pouliot: What are the details of this vote?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: In the absence of the minister I have not the information, but if the hon. member desires I shall see that he receives it.


Jean-François Pouliot: There is something here in regard to the dominion fuel board. Now, there has been some high pressure canvassing since the beginning of this session, and there has been lobbying in the interests of peat. Peat, it is said, is going to save this country if a subsidy is granted to a peat firm. This is most ridiculous, and we should not be bothered by any canvassing on the part of lobbyists in the House of Commons, asking for a grant for peat. Every member has been imposed upon since the beginning of the session by invitations to entertainments and otherwise, for the purpose of lending encouragement to the new industry. We have had enough of that, and I hope the government will be sensible enough not to give any consideration to such interested propaganda.

Supply-Labour-Annuities
We do not know anything about it. The gentleman says he represents some Scotch company, but nobody knows whether it is Scotch or Danish or Nordic. It is a real imposition for members to have these fellows running after them and, as I say, I hope the government will be sensible enough not to pay any attention to such a request.


Mr. BERTRAND:: I cannot allow the remarks of my hon. friend to pass unchallenged. I do not intend to refer to any company whatever, or to discuss lobbying or canvassing; but to say that we should not study the peat situation because something of this sort might have been done is absolutely contrary to common sense. Peat is a natural resource of this country; it is a fuel to be found in the central provinces and it might be utilized by the people to great advantage. It would probably result in curtailing importations of fuel, and it would give work to local men in the processing of it. I would recommend very strongly that further investigation be made into the possibilities of this natural resource. I think the government should carry on investigations in the interests of the Canadian people.


Jean-François Pouliot: The committee is perhaps under the impression that my hon. friend from
Prescott disagrees with the remarks I have made. As a matter of fact, I fully agree with him, and what I said was not intended to discourage experiments on the part of the government in connection with peat. It is a natural resource and I think the government should continue those experiments and choose the best fields in order to secure the best sort of peat available. But that is a very different thing from saying that a subsidy should be granted to a private concern. My hon. friend from Prescott has not said anything that conflicts with the views I have expressed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Annuities Act-further amount required, $65,000.
William Daum Euler: The sale of government annuities is, I understand, pretty well in the hands of certain officials throughout the country who have offices in the larger towns and cities and who do their work on the commission basis. I am informed that at the beginning of this year the commission was cut approximately forty per cent. Offhand, I would say that this is a very drastic reduction in the remuneration which is allowed these agents, and I am impelled to ask-I suppose it would be the Minister of Finance
under the circumstances-whether this reduction is made in the interests of economy or in order to discourage the sale of government annuities, and also whether similar reductions have been made in other phases of this particular branch. Either we have allowed too much in the past or we are not allowing enough now. What is the explanation of the reduction?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Until my hon. friend said that there had been a reduction in the amount of the commission paid, I had not heard that there had been, so that I shall have to make inquiry of the officials of the department to ascertain whether it is a fact. I shall endeavour to have the information if at all possible before the committee rises. I cannot answer the question offhand, but I can say that there has been no diminution in the applications for annuities; on the contrary, there has been a very marked increase in the demand. If I mistake not, the occasion for this vote, although I have not the details before me, arises because of the additional expense incurred as a result of the very largely increased demand for annuities which has been apparent throughout the year. However, I will endeavour to have the exact information before the committee rises.


William Daum Euler: I am satisfied with the reply which the minister has given in the meantime. I wonder whether he would say anything as to the attitude of the government towards annuities? Are they really in favour of extending the sale of annuities or would they prefer to see it gradually die out? I had the impression years ago that the annuities business of the government was not a remunerative one, and one would hardly blame the government if they did not encourage the sale of annuities.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: There has been no change in the policy which has obtained hitherto, not only under this government but under the preceding one as well; we have pursued the same policy. The sale of annuities has increased year by year, and that in itself is evidence that there has been no intention of discouraging it. I have no hesitation in frankly saying to my hon. friend that I believe that a government another year would be well advised to review the rates paid for annuities, because they are below the actuarial requirements.


William Daum Euler: Is not that probably the reason the business is increasing?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: That might very well be a contributing factor. As a matter of fact I
Supply-Labour

believe 'that they fail to carry themselves to the extent of $450,000 per annum, apart from the overhead. The carrying charge involves that annual drain upon the treasury, and I think the price of annuities might properly be increased to the point where they would carry themselves, apart from administration.


William Daum Euler: It might also be one of the reasons why the commissions have been cut.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I shall have to inquire with regard to the question .of commission.


Abraham Albert Heaps: What is the total amount of annuities in force at the present time?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have none of the data here, but I will endeavour to get it before the committee rises.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International Labour Conference-further amount required, $5,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: This is a rather small amount. The government had some forms of convention through this organization, and the mistake that was made was to contend that these forms were binding like contracts. It was a great mistake of the government, though I see some of my hon. friends opposite smiling-one of them particularly on the treasury benches. He knows that I am right and he knows that these so-called conventions are not binding upon Canada and were merely an attempt to justify the new era and the new social legislation which was passed in an effort to save Canada economically. It was a great mistake and everyone regrets it. We find a vote of $1,000 for the administration of hours of labour, weekly rest and minimum wage acts. In addition there are other large amounts being provided to grease the wheels of this new machine. It is regrettable that a complete study of this whole matter was not left to the minister whom I saw smiling a minute ago. I know that with his profound knowledge of the law he would have told the government that they were mistaken. If the Minister of Finance (Mr. Rhodes) had been asked to look into this matter I am sure that with his great experience as a lawyer he would have said that it was no good. If the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Stewart) had been asked to make a special survey of the whole thing I am sure he would have said that it was no good. If my friend the Minister of Marine (Mr. Duranleau) had been asked to report I am sure his report would have been against all this. If the Solicitor General (Mr. Dupre) had been asked to look into this legislation

I am sure he would have said: We cannot go on with this. As it was, this was made up by third rate clerks and imposed upon the government by someone whom we all know. They were told they must accept it as it was, whether good or bad, just because it looked nice. This legislation was not drafted as a means of doing good, it was simply made to look nice. And it is going to cost a lot to pay for it all. I do not believe this legislation will work out and my deep conviction is that as soon as it is brought before the courts it will be declared to be void. We will then be no better off than we were before while those who have been appointed as members of these boards will join the ranks of the unemployed. Perhaps that is the only satisfaction we will get from the legislation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Administration of hours of labour, weekly rest and minimum wages acts, $100,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government
seems now to be showing some concern about the constitutionality of its measures and in view of that attitude I should like to know if the minister does not think it might be wise to consider testing the validity of one, two or three of these acts before entering upon their administration on too vast a scale?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: There is nothing I can add to what the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) has said on one or two different occasions when similar questions were put to him by the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King). I shall direct the Prime Minister's attention to this question in the event of his desiring to enlarge upon what he has said previously.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The trouble is that in the early part of the session the Prime Minister did not seem to care much about the matter of constitutionality but during the latter part he has seemed to be greatly concerned. We should like to know just where the government stands now.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If I possessed the necessary legal background I might attempt to answer the question myself, but not having that I prefer to leave it to the Prime Minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I can quite appreciate the fact that no member of the government feels himself able to give an answer.

Supply-Indian Affairs


Jean-François Pouliot: This so-called social legislation was the main issue in the provincial campaign in New Brunswick which ended yesterday and I think the answer was loud enough.


Edward James Young: Will the minister give us the particulars of this expenditure?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: My hon. friend will appreciate that this vote is under the Department of Labour and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gordon) is not present. I have offered to give information in answer to one or two questions and before the committee rises I shall endeavour to answer the question of the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Young).


Edward James Young: The item will stand in the
meantime?
Item stands.



INDIAN AFFAIRS

[Stage Direction]
Indians-	.
To provide for expenses connected with the administration of Indian affairs, including salaries, supplies, relief, medical attendance, hospitalization, dwellings, agricultural activities, surveys, roads, bridges, irrigation, dyking, education, etc.-further amount required, *200,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: Could the minister give
the number of the Indians Who have received relief since 1929? If he cannot give that information immediately will he furnish it before the end of the session?


Thomas Gerow Murphy: I shall be very glad to
do that.


John Campbell Elliott: I understand that quite
a substantial portion of this item is to be expended upon roads in the Indian reserves; am I correct in that understanding?


Thomas Gerow Murphy: This item is made up as
follows: For Indian education $154,000 is being provided, made up of $67,000 for an increase in the per capita grants to residential schools; $40,000 to cover the final payment towards the cost of construction of the Beauval Indian residential school and $47,000 to provide furnishings for Indian residential schools erected from funds provided under the Public Works Construction Act. A sum of $21,000 is being provided for medical services, to provide for furnishings and equipment for buildings erected under funds provided under the Public Works Construction Act. An amount of $25,000 is being provided for aids to Indians, to cover the construction of thirty new houses for Indian families forced to move through the raising of the water level of Lac Seul.


John Campbell Elliott: Nothing for roads?


Thomas Gerow Murphy: Not under this item.


John Campbell Elliott: Then why are roads
mentioned?


Thomas Gerow Murphy: This item follows the
wording of the item in the main estimates; that is the only reason I can give.


John Campbell Elliott: It is misleading as it
stands. Apparently it was easier to copy the old item and in the meantime the Indians on the reserves, instead of travelling along the roads which are practically impassable will have to continue to go through the fields.


Jean-François Pouliot: Will the minister supplement the information he promised to give me by giving the number of dependents?
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 27, respecting the Canadian Marconi Company.-Mr. Sullivan.
Bill No. 96, respecting the Sarnia-Port Huron Vehicular Tunnel Company .-Mr. Gray.
Bill No. 113, for the relief of Dora Eleanor Mathieson Campbell.-Mr. Vallance.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. MacDonald (Cape Breton South) in the chair.
Indians-
To provide for expenses connected with the administration of Indian Affairs, including salaries, supplies, relief, medical attendance, hospitalization, dwellings, agricultural activities, surveys, roads, bridges, irrigation, dyking, education, etc.-further amount required, $200,000.
Thomas Reid: I would like to ask the minister a question on behalf of the hon. member for Vancouver North (Mr. Munn) who is not present. Is there anything in this appropriation for river bank protection on the Squa-mish river?


Thomas Gerow Murphy: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-National Defence
[Stage Direction]
Department of National Defence Radio Services-
For the maintenance and operation of the Northwest Territories radio system-further amount required, $50,000.
Jean-François Pouliot: May I ask the government whether the proposal contained in the speech from the throne for the establishment of a department of communications during this session has been put into force and, if so, when and to what extent?


Mr. GUTHRIE:: We will not proceed with that until next session.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am very glad to hear
that, because it is one of the social measures that have been dropped.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Administration of hours of labour, weekly rest and minimum wages acts, $100,000.
Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This item stood. There
was first a question submitted by the hon. member for North Waterloo (Mr. Euler). I find that there were reductions in commissions, that is in the maximum commission payable, in only two classes of annuities. The maximum commission in the case of single payment deferred annuities was reduced from $100 to $50. In the case of deferred annuities on an annual payment basis, the maximum commission was reduced from $125 to $75. All other, commissions were left undisturbed. I am advised by the department that the reason these commissions were reduced was that there was a drive by the representatives to
Statement re Canadian Government Annuities Fiscal year:
1923-	24	
1924- 25	 ' "
1925- 25	 " "
1926- 27	;	
1927- 28	 '
1928-	29	
1929-	30	
1930-	31	
1931-	32	
1932-	33	
1933- 34	 	
1934-	35


Abraham Albert Heaps: What I would like to get
from the minister is information as to the value of the annuities outstanding at the present time.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The actuarial value?


Abraham Albert Heaps: No, the value of the annuities bought by the purchasers.

secure the purchase of annuities by moneyed men, whereas -the object of the act in the first instance was to make annuities available to a more humble class of our citizens, and in those classes the commission was not disturbed.


William Daum Euler: Has the act been successful in that direction?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have not an analysis
of the figures as to the extent that it was an inducement to the agents to go after that class of business. I presume there must have been at least some success. Then m-y hon. friend from North Winnipeg (Mr. Heaps) inquired as to the amount received for annuities. I have the figures dating from the inception in 1923-24. In that year the amount received was $1,458,818.92. It ran along for succeeding years at about that sum until 1927-28, when it amounted to $3,843,087.96. It remained1 at approximately that figure until 1932-33. In that year there was received1 $3,547,345.03, representing contracts purchased to the number of 1,375. That figure jumped perceptibly in the next year, 1933-34, when there were contracts issued to the number of 2,412, and the amount paid in for the annuities in that year was $7,071,439. For 1934-35 there were contracts issued to the number of 3,931 and the amount received in that year was $13,376,400.02.
The total number of contracts issued1 to March 31, 1935, is 22,737 and the total receipts amount to $56,661,889.69. I have not read the detailed figures, but if the committee is interested and there is no abjection I will place this tabulation in Hansard:
for Fiscal Years 1923-24 to 1934-35, Inclusive
Cost of	Number of	
advertising	contracts issued	Receipts$21,915 65	409	$1,458,818 9219,922 94	486	1,606,822 0360 00	668	1,938.921 179,361 89	503	1.894,885 298.529 14	1.223	3,843,087 965.203 91	1,328	4,272,418 8719.359 18	1,257	3,156,475 2427,3-88 12	1.772	3.612.233 88129 26	1.726	4.194.383 81836 85	1,375	3,547,345 032.412	7.071.439 003,931	13,376,400 02


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Does my hon. friend
mean the yield to the -recipients?


Abraham Albert Heaps: Yes.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The figure I have in
mind is a little over two and' a half million that we are paying out as yield.

Supply-Labour


Abraham Albert Heaps: Do I understand that the
government are paying out two and a half million dollars per annum?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: That was the figure last
year. No doubt it is larger this year, but I have not the amount.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Have we no idea of the
gross value of the annuities purchased?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The amount paid in I
have given.


Abraham Albert Heaps: No, not the amount paid
in. For instance, I might buy a $1,000 annuity; I would like to know the value of those annuities to-day, the amount in which the government is indebted to the purchasers at the present time.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: That question cannot be
answered in the form in which it is put. Suppose an individual purchases an annuity, paying in a lump sum; if he dies the next year the annuity ceases and the amount paid in goes to the consolidated revenue fund. I can only give a figure which represents1 the amount of cash paid in and the amount which the government pays out to the annuitants in a given year.


Abraham Albert Heaps: That would not show
whether the scheme is solvent or insolvent. Just before recess we were told that there was a loss of about $460,000 per year. Am I correct?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have stated that on an
actuarial basis the annuities are not selfsustaining. It costs the country in the neighbourhood of $450,000 a year to carry these annuities, apart altogether from the cost of administration. But no doubt the fund is solvent; we must assume it is, because it has behind it the guarantee of the dominion treasury.
The hon. member for Weybum (Mr. Young) put a question with respect to the division of the amount of $100,000 as mentioned in the item for administration of the hours of labour, weekly rest and minimum wages acts. At best, inasmuch as we are exploring new ground, it is only an estimate as to actual requirements. But the set up which enabled the department to arrive at that figure by way of estimate was as follows:
Three advisory officers with their necessary secretarial assistance, $25,000.
Officer in charge, $4,000.
Twelve inspectors at $2,100, $25,200.
One clerk, $1,800.
One stenographer, $900.
Travelling expenses of inspectors, say, $250 per month for twelve inspectors, $30,000. Printing and stationery, $2,100.
Allowance and travelling expenses of committee members under section 4 of Bill No. 40, $10,000.
Sundries, $1,000-Total, $100,000.


Edward James Young: My hon. friend said "at best." What does he mean? Does he mean that is the least or the most?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: My hon. friend may take
his own interpretation. In dealing with a new piece of legislation, exploring a new field, at best the department can only make an estimate, and be guided by experience in future years.


Edward James Young: I take it that this $100,000
is the least expenditure we shall ever make in the enforcement of these laws, that this amount will increase from year to year as the staff employed increases, and what is S100,000 to-day will be $200,000 next year, and before many years will be a million dollars.


Jean-François Pouliot: Have any of the officers
just mentioned by the minister been already appointed?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I believe not.


Jean-François Pouliot: In January it was very
important to pass this legislation in order to have a new era, but up to the present, although six months have elapsed, no one has been appointed. The legislation has been passed for some time, and now we have estimates of salaries and so on. Either this legislation is important or it is not. If it is, the appointments should have been made a long time ago; if it is not, there should be no vote.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If I mistake not, a part
of the legislation was assented to only to-day. Certainly ,a government would be ill-advised to set up machinery to administer an act which is not yet law.


Jean-François Pouliot: I see the minister's point; it is that it took such a long time to present that legislation to the house. The minister says it is just out of the oven; it took a long time to raise the dough.


William Daum Euler: If I might return for a
moment to the matter of annuities, I gather from what the minister said that the purpose of cutting down the commissions was to discourage the sale of the higher annuities. I think the maximum is $1,200 or $1,400?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It is $1,200.
Supply-Labour


William Daum Euler: At one time it was $5,000, and I think under the present government the maximum was cut to SI,200, which was a pretty substantial cut. Could the minister give any idea-'perhaps he may not be able to answer now-as to the number of annuitants who have qualified for the $1,200 annuity? Is the number much in excess of those who take the smaller amounts?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I am very sorry I have
not the details, but I can get that information for my hon. friend.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Concerning the item for the enforcement of the Hours of Labour act, the Weekly Day of Rest Act and the Minimum Wage Act, it appears from what the minister has said that it is the intention of the government to appoint a staff of inspectors and others to enforce the legislation recently passed by this house. All the measures mentioned come to a certain extent under the jurisdiction of the provincial legislatures. I should like to see the officials appointed under these acts work in close cooperation, so far as that is possible, with the officials of the provincial governments. It would be most unfortunate if we should have within any province two sets of officials attempting to enforce similar legislation but working in opposite directions. I am sorry the Minister of Labour is not in his place to-night; he might be able to give the committee some idea as to how it is intended to appoint the, officials contemplated by this vote and how they will go about their work. I do not know whether the minister who is now in charge of this item can give that information, but I should like to know if it is the intention of the Department of Labour to have these officials work as far as possible in conjunction with the officials of the provincial governments.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: My hon. friend will appreciate that I am not familiar with the details of the operation of this department; I have not had an opportunity of conferring with my colleague, nor do I know just what has been the practice of the department. Rut I have no hesitation in, saying that I think it would be sound policy on the part of any government to work in the closest possible cooperation with provincial governments having officials dealing with matters in a similar field. I know that in the Department of Fisheries, while I happened to be head of that department, as well as in the Department of Finance, I have been at pains to endeavour to work in the closest cooperation with the officials of the provincial govern-

meats, and indeed with the provincial governments themselves, where our objects have been in common. I think I should be safe in saying that it will be the policy of the Department of Labour, where it can do so to the advantage of the common cause, to work in the closest possible cooperation, with the officials of the various provincial administrations.


Jean-François Pouliot: The government will
accomplish marvels if they work in cooperation with the provinces in matters conberping which the provinces have exclusive jurisdiction. They will put their n-ose into the business of the provinces, and it will be a great mistake. They have nothing to do with this matter; it belongs to the provinces. The only thing ,to do is to urge the provinces to enact legislation such as this,, if .possible, by orderly compromise, and I for one do not believe much in that.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I am sorry to differ with my hon. friend from Temiscouata. I may say to him that in the province from which he comes, to which the fisheries have been transferred, we work in the closest possible cooperation with the provincial government. Indeed, our officials not only exchange views, information and knowledge; on occasions when we could be of mutual assistance the province and the dominion have pooled their resources for the purpose of serving the Department of Fisheries of that province to greater advantage. I think it is all to the good that there should be the closest possible cooperation 'between the province and the dominion covering the common field.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, but this is entirely different. I do not contend that there should be war between the federal and provincial governments; that is not my point of view at all. I am telling the committee that when one body, whether the dominion or the province, has exclusive jurisdiction the two bodies cannot cooperate because one has full power and only one can have full power. That is the contention I humbly submit to the committee. It is altogether different from cooperation in matters which may be considered from various viewpoints. For instance, the fisheries belonged to the dominion for a long time; they were transferred to the province of Quebec. Well and good; there must be cooperation to a certain extent between the dominion and the province. On the other hand it is entirely different to say that the dominion will take charge of something exclusively within the jurisdiction of the provinces, and that is what I am saying.

Supply-Pensions and National Health


Abraham Albert Heaps: In reply to my hon. friend who has just spoken (Mr. Pouliot), may I say that it would not have been a bad thing at all if the federal government had maintained one or two fair wage officers in the province of Quebec, paid by the federal authority. The federal government let quite a large number of contracts in the province of Quebec, according to the evidence given before the price spreads committee, and if some of the fair wage provisions of those contracts had been enforced by the federal government certainly it would have done no harm to the province of Quebec.


Jean-François Pouliot: I have just a word to say in reply to the hon. member for North Winnipeg (Mr. Heaps), and it is this: The hon. member for Temiscouata looked into the matter of minimum wages in this house long before the labour members from the west began to deal with it, and he pointed out a way to redress some wrongs with regard to wages a long time before my hon. friend and the members of his group took up the matter in this house. He did so because he knew the conditions that existed in that province. Here is the point: When my hon. friends of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation group want something they want it by any means, whether it is right or wrong and whether or not it is done in the right way. They want it; they are just like children who want jam. This is not the right way. When we want something we must get it in the legal way in order that what we ask for may be endorsed by the courts should the occasion arise. If this government has no jurisdiction at all, when it sends inspectors to the province of Quebec, the province of Nova Scotia, the province of Manitoba, or the province of New Brunswick-I do not suppose that will happen now-to look after provincial business, the province may object and tell the inspectors to go back to Ottawa, that they have no business in that province. That is why it is so important to have this matter submitted to the Supreme Court of Canada in order that we may have some lead from the court in the matter. I do not object at all to the views expressed by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance, but this is altogether different. My hon. friend from North Winnipeg must remember that whatever we may put in any federal enactment with regard to minimum wages in practice is only applicable to the extent that it is sanctioned by the courts which have to interpret the laws of this country according to the constitution.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Salaries-departmental staff-further amount required, $30,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: One or two members on this side who are also members of the committee that is sitting at the present time wish to discuss this item, as well as the two following items, and I was asked to have them held over if possible.
Item stands.
National Health-
The administration of the acts respecting food and drugs, opium and' narcotic drugs and proprietary or patent medicines, including the laboratory of hygiene - further amount required, $4,860.
Public health engineering-further amount required, $3,665.


Humphrey Mitchell: The other day I noticed a statement in the press to the effect that a commission was to be appointed to consider the advisability of bringing in a national health insurance scheme, if I understood the item correctly. I should like to ask the minister if he can give the committee any information in that connection. I believe the statement was made to a meeting of druggists held in Ottawa not long ago.


Donald Matheson Sutherland: During the recess of parliament there convened in Ottawa a meeting of the ministers of health of the various provinces, and at that time it was considered that it would be desirable to appoint a royal commission to investigate health conditions in Canada. That was the opinion of the meeting of ministers and my personal opinion, and as a result a resolution was passed to that effect. I made a statement indicating that in the autumn such a commission would be appointed to go fully into health matters and to make representations as to the best way to carry out proposals for the general health of the country.


Humphrey Mitchell: Is it to be a one man commission, or one composed of the various interested parties?


Donald Matheson Sutherland: Although the details have not yet been arranged, undoubtedly it would not be a one man commission. When the time comes for the appointment the personnel will be carefully considered. I hold the view that representatives of labour and of other bodies should be on the commission.


Mr. NEILL:: Will chemists be included?


Donald Matheson Sutherland: There has been no definite decision on those points.


Humphrey Mitchell: It would be best to have the cooperation cf all those interested in such
4096	COMMONS
Supply-Miscellaneous-Canadian Mint
a scheme. While I appreciate the fact that, the minister has indicated labour will be represented, I would point out that druggists, the medical profession,, and possibly people interested in hospitals should be represented. I can remember the difficulty experienced in Great Britain, and I believe it would be well in the formation of the commission to have representation from those people interested in or vitally affected by the development of such a scheme. I make that suggestion and also should like to congratulate -them upon the step they intend taking.
Mr. POfJLIOT: Have we a health insurance commission or board cxf some kind?


Donald Matheson Sutherland: No, there is nothing of that kind.


Jean-François Pouliot: That was promised by the Prime Minister in his January broadcasts.


Angus MacInnis: May I join the hon. member for East Hamilton (Mr. Mitchell) in congratulating the Minister of Pensions and National Health upon the conference of provincial ministers held during the Easter recess. There were three important developments, the first being the formation of a cabinet of health to be composed of the Minister of Health of the dominion and provincial ministers sitting in periodic conferences; second, the establishment of a royal commission, as already indicated by the minister, and, third, the formation of an advisory council on health, to be composed! of various interested agencies. I believe that is what the hon. member for East Hamilton had in mind. May I congratulate the minister upon taking this very important step.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Prisoners' Welfare Association, $500.
James Shaver Woodsworth: I am not sure of the extent of the work of the Canadian Prisoners' Welfare Association, but I must say that S500 seems a very small amount, especially when we look farther down the list and find an item of S15.000 "to provide for the expenses in, connection with the departure of the governor general and for the reception and installation of his successor." It seems to me that these two votes are out of proportion.


Hugh Guthrie: The sum of 8500 appears, because that is the amount for which the Canadian Prisoners' Welfare Association asked.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

To provide for the administration of the Royal Canadian	Mint-further	amount
required for equipment, $110,000.
William Daum Euler: I am curous to know
whether the Minister of Finance has received complaints, as I have, with regard to what we call our five cent piece, to the effect that it is too large, too cumbersome, and not at all of a fine design. It is too near the size of the twenty-five cent piece. I have heard many criticisms of this coin, and I should like to know if the minister has ever considered changing it to something a little better and a little smaller.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have not had as many complaints with respect to size as I have respecting the design. I have no hesitation in expressing my personal1 opinion, for what it is worth, that our five cent piece is one of the most hideous coins in the world. I should like to see something more distinctly Canadian in design and something of which we could be proud.


William Daum Euler: And a little smaller, too.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The difficulty in that respect has been that there are many slot machines, not of a gambling type, but used in various places for purposes of convenience, in telephone booths and so on. It would be decidedly inconvenient for tourists from the United States to have to substitute! their coins for ours. I believe that was in the mind of the Minister of Finance who selected the present coin. At one time I had in mind a coin with a hole punched in the centre so that it would be lighter and more easily distinguished from the more valuable coin.


Charles-Philippe Beaubien: A Chinese coin.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes, quite so. Such a coin could easily be distinguished from the twenty-five cent piece. If our minds had not been so much engaged with other matters some designs might have been prepared and a coin issued in design similar to that, of the new silver dollar, which I believe has artisti; merit. It is distinctly Canadian in design, it is unique, and the comments we have received both as to design and execution have been uniformly favourable. I hope the day is not. far distant when not only our five cent piece but the rest of our coinage may be more in keeping with the artistic tastes and ambitions of the Canadian people.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would like to remind the minister that this is not the first time a minister has got into difficulty over a five cent piece.

Supply-Miscellaneous-Tariff Board


Jean-François Pouliot: If there is a hole in it it will be a picture of the reform program.


Mr. CHEVRIER:: I notice the vote contains the expression "further amount required for equipment"; is the amount solely for equipment?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes; I have the complete details, if the committee would like to have them.


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: No; I just wished to know if it was for equipment only.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes. Much of the machinery in the mint is twenty years old. The major item is for what is known as Cottrell equipment. As a matter of fact there has been an escape of gases from the melting furnaces carrying precious metal to an extent of not less than 1,000 ounces of gold per year. We are putting in an apparatus which will wash the gases from the melting furnaces and it is guaranteed that we will recover not less than 1,000 ounces of gold per year. The net result will be that the whole expenditure will be covered in a little over three years' time.


Thomas Reid: The minister has had a request for help from the silver association of British Columbia. I wonder if he has considered granting them some assistance. I have a second question. How many silver dollars have been issued to date?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: We have had several communications from the silver association of British Columbia, and we feel that we have made a start in our assistance to those who have special regard for silver. There have been issued up to the moment $284,000 worth of silver dollars. It has not begun to meet the demand, but there is a limiting factor. We have only one machine in the mint capable of being adapted to the striking of the dollar coin, and at the same time there has been a tremendously heavy demand for the five cent and one cent coins, arising largely from the fact that sales taxes and amusement taxes have been imposed in various provinces and the demand for small change has been enormous. Since there is no substitute in coinage or notes for these smaller coins we have had to give the preference to them as against the silver dollar, which is comparatively a luxury coin that can have a substitute in the form of a note. But as rapidly as the limiting factor to which I have referred
is obviated we shall endeavour to meet the demand. I visited the mint this morning and they were striking dollar coins at the rate of sixty a minute.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for salaries and expenses of the tariff board, including additional provision by reason of the increased jurisdiction under the Dominion Trade and Industry Act-further amount required, $200,000.
Edward James Young: This vote is in addition to the amount that has already been provided. I take it that this is due to the new duties imposed on the board. Am I right?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This will provide for additional expenditures in connection with the administration of the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission Act, and it will also cover the cost of investigations which are now taking place with regard to the automobile and gasoline trades, which are of a major character and have involved much heavier expenditures than could have been anticipated at the time the main estimates were submitted.


Edward James Young: How much of this vote is required because of the new duties imposed on the board by constituting them a trade and industry commission?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: There is not an exact computation, but it is about half and half.


Edward James Young: About S100,000. But that is only as regards what we might call the head office staff. What provision is being made for the staff of inspectors who will be employed by the board to go round to see that the commission's rulings are enforced?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: This will be the whole of the cost so far as we can make estimates for this year with respect to the activities of the board.


Thomas Reid: Is it possible to get a copy of the report of the proceedings before the tariff board in Vancouver in the gasoline investigation?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: There would be no copy of the proceedings, in any event, under existing legislation. There will be a copy of the report when it is made to parliament.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would point out that in the main estimates, item 230, we have already appropriated 8120,000 to provide for salaries and expenses of the tariff board, payments to be made notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act or its regula-

Supply-Miscellaneous-Tariff Board
tions. Now we are asked to vote $200,000 to provide for salaries and expenses of the tariff board, including additional provision by reason of the increased jurisdiction under the Dominion Trade and Industry Commission Act. I imagine that the government must have included this item in the supplementaries to replace the one in the main estimates; otherwise it would mean $320,000 to be asked for the tariff board.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The auditing costs in connection with the gasoline and automobile investigations will run into very substantial figures which could not have been foreseen at the time the main estimates were brought down. It is a major inquiry involving heavy expenditures.


Jean-François Pouliot: What is the difference between the duties now imposed on the tariff board, especially with respect to the investigation into the automobile and gasoline trades, and so on, and the tariff board as it existed in 1930 before the general elections? Is there any difference between the duties performed by the 1930 board and those which are performed by the board at the present time?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: If the board as it existed previously had undertaken a dominion-wide investigation involving the employment of auditors and a careful analysis of costs and accounting and an investigation of the books of these great industries, and moving about as it does, with heavy expenditures becoming necessary, I have no doubt that it would have cost as much as it does to-day.


Jean-François Pouliot: I thank the hon. gentleman, but he has not answered my question. I tried to make it as lucid as possible. In 1930 there was a tariff board, as the hon. gentleman knows, and that board had certain duties to perform. Now there is another board which is supposed to be entirely different from the board as it was constituted in 1930. I should like to know whether the duties imposed this year on the new board are not exactly the same as the duties performed by the tariff board in 1930.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I should not care to go into a comparative analysis of the respective merits of the old board and the new tariff board. It is true the legislation setting up these bodies differs in detail, but I still adhere to the original answer I gave the hon. gentleman, which I think is fair, namely, that any tariff board which carried out an investigation
LMr. Mackenzie King.J
as exhaustive as the inquiry which has been going on in connection with the automobile and gasoline trades, necessitating heavy expenditures, would cost just as much.


Jean-François Pouliot: My question was straight and direct, and the answer culd have been straight and direct

yes. In 1930 at the special session and during the session of 1931 we heard the Prime Minister telling about this great invention, the new tariff board, which was to do this and that. As the minister knows, it was appointed in February, 1933, but what happened in the meantime? No information was gathered from proper sources, as now, but the government went ahead and made changes in the tariff. Now they should be commended for the investigation being made by the tariff board, but it is too late; parliament will soon be prorogued, and all the legislation from 1930 to 1933 was passed without proper information because the government changed the situation with regard to the tariff board. And now, after the failure of their experiments, they see that the Liberal policy was right and they are trying to go back to it. But it is too late.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am afraid
there will be considerable confusion in the accounts of this body. At one stage it will be known as the tariff board and at another stage it will be known as the dominion trade and industry commission. How are these two bodies to be distinguished? The trade and industry commission is under the tariff board, the chairman of the tariff board being also chairman of the commission. It seems to me there ought to be some distinction between the accounts of these two bodies.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have not had an opportunity to discuss the matter with the chairman of the tariff board, because before he went away I was ill, and he has been away for some little time in connection with the automobile and gasoline investigations. There will however be little question with regard to the accounts; there is no doubt that the accounts will show the respective activities of the two bodies. It is purely a question of accounting as to whether it relates to the sittings of the tariff board or to the sittings of the trade and industry commission.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I suppose we
will have to let the matter pass with that somewhat lame excuse. I do not think the absence of any one should be accepted by the committee as the reason for the government not being able to give an explanation.

Supply-Miscellaneous-Translations


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I 'beg my right hon. friend's pardon. I would have discussed the details of this very fully with the chairman in order to* give a complete answer, but I think my answer is a fair one. It is purely a matter of accounting.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: What I want
to stress at the moment is that in the next parliament there will be considerable interest as to what the social legislation passed by this government is costing. It is important that accounts should be separate and distinct.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I quite agree.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If it is understood that this vote is for the tariff board and the trade and industry commission, it should be further understood that the actual statement given to this house of the expenditures should distinguish, in amounts paid out, as between the two bodies. If that is understood, we will let the item pass.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I quite agree with my
right hon. friend.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the expenses in connection with the silver jubilee of King George V, including allowances for extra work and overtime, subject to the approval of the treasury board, $19,500.
Thomas Reid: Will this vote cover payments to full time officials of the government?


Mr. CAHAN:: Arrangements for this jubilee required considerable night work and clerical assistance was obtained from other departments. I am proposing that the treasury board shall have the right to appropriate $500 as gratuities to those employees temporarily taken over from other departments for this work after their own work had been completed.


Eugène Fiset: The minister is creating a precedent. In the past any gratuity or emolument paid to anyone receiving a regular salary was shown with the name of the person receiving the payment. This $15,000 is to be paid out by the treasury board to officials already in receipt of regular salaries.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Without discussing the
merits of this practice, I would say to the hon. member for Rimouski (Sir Eugene Fiset) that I can give him a number of instances under the regime of my right hon. friend where a similar procedure was followed. I agree with him that it is preferable that the name should be shown, but the practice followed in this instance is by no means new.


Jean-François Pouliot: Were there any anonymous workers?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The Secretary of State put in considerable overtime on this matter; will he not get anything extra?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I have done a great deal of extra work during the past five years, but I am not asking for any gratuities. I believe it was necessary to have some twelve or fourteen temporary employees appointed by the civil service commission, and it was also necessary to have temporary assistance from some of the other departments. The extra appropriation for the temporary employees and those brought in from the other departments is only $500, so the amount to each will not be more than $20 or $25.


Eugène Fiset: I am not criticizing the vote; I am criticizing the manner in which it is being expended.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: My hon. friend has suggested that there is no precedent, but there have been a number.


Eugène Fiset: I have never seen them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for salaries and expenses of the bureau for	translations-further	amount
required, $22,735.
Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: Does this vote represent the economies which were to be effected by the creation of this new bureau?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: My hon. friend is rather satirical. The work of this bureau has increased enormously. I cannot remember a session of parliament when there was so much work in the way of translations. It must be remembered that the evidence and report of the price spreads commission involved a large amount of work. For instance, the translation required 5,400 printed pages, while the type for both editions of the report weighed 46 tons. I thought it unfair to impose all this extra translation work upon men who were working under a strain at times, and I asked the civil1 service commission to make a recommendation to the treasury board1 for temporary assistance. I can give my hon. friend all the details of this item if he desires.


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: I am not concerned with the details. In connection with the previous vote the minister stated that it was to cover remuneration for extra work, and I should like to know if any portion of this vote will go to the translators for fhe extra work they have done.

4100	COMMONS
Supply-Miscellaneous-Translations


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: This vote is to provide the additional translation services which were necessary to take care of the extra work. In this connection I should like to refer to a question asked on June 12 by the hon. member for L'lslet (Mr. Fafard). This question reads:
Does the government intend to have a French translation made of bulletin No. 72: "Birds of Canada," by P. A. Taverner, also memoranda numbers 126: "Botanical Exploration of the North Shore of the St. Lawrence," by H. St. John; 146: "Retreat of the Last Ice-Sheet in Eastern Canada," by Ernest Antevs; 154: "Geology of Anticosti Island," by Twenhofel; 162: "Peat Bogs in Southeastern Canada," by Vaino Auer?
I replied that the translation of such departmental bulletins was within the discretion of the department issuing the bulletin and that up to date we had received no requests for the translation of the documents referred to. Before making my answer I inquired of the bureau for translations and I was told that they had received no requests for the translation of these documents. I had thought that possibly under the stress of translation, work these might have been overlooked. After making that reply, on June 14 one of the journals passed a very severe stricture upon the Secretary of State for making a reply such as he did, but I believe its article was due to a complete misunderstanding of the facts. For instance, bulletin or memoir No. 126 by Harold St. John, on Botanical Explorations of the North Shore of the St. Lawrence, was, I find on inquiry, published by the director of the Department of the Victoria Memorial Museum on March 25, 1922, and it has been distributed since that date. No translation of this memoir into French has been published. I do not conceive it to b.e my duty at the present time to go back for fourteen years in order to look over all the bulletins to find out whether or not they have been translated into French. Bulletin or memoir No. 146, by Ernest Antevs, on the Retreat of the Last Ice-Sheet in Eastern Canada, was published in 1925 by the director of the geological survey of the Department of Mines, and no translation was made into French. Of course I have not been going back into all these memoirs, of which there are hundreds, to find out whether, antecedent to the formation of the bureau of translation, they were translated. The same may be said of bulletin or memoir No. 154, on the Geology of Anticosti Island by W. H. Twenhofel, which was published by the director of the geological survey of the Department of Mines in 1928. No translation of this into French has yet been made, and there has been no 
demand for one. Bulletin or memoir No. 162 by Vaino Auer, on Peat Bogs in Southeastern 'Canada, was published in English alone as a bulletin prior to the formation of this government.
There is one point however to which attention might be given. There has recently been published by the acting director of the National Museum of Canada bulletin No. 72 on Birds of Canada by P. A. Taverner which has just been 'issued to the public and is now available in English at the price of $2 per volume if requests are made either to the Department of Mines or to the Department of Public Printing and Stationery. No request has yet reached the Department of the Secretary of State with regard to the translation of that bulletin into French. I can well understand a suggestion being made in the French journals that it should be translated into French, but upon inquiry I find that the decision whether that bulletin will be translated and published in French will depend to a considerable extent upon the probable demand for a French edition. So far there has been, no special demand, due probably to the fact that in 1922 there was published by the .director of the geological survey a splendid edition in French, which is still available, of Mr. Taverner's memoire No. 10-1, Les Oisseaux de l'est du Canada, which reached a second edition in that year, and which largely forms the basis of the English edition which was published this year. Moreover in connection with this recent English edition now available there has been provided an index in the French language as well as in English with the idea that those who wish to make cross references to the two volumes might readily do so. But if there is any considerable demand for a French edition of this later work, which includes not only the birds of eastern Canada but some birds of western Canada as well, I have no doubt, the Minister of Mines will ask for an appropriation for its publication. The minister has been absent for a few days, and since this question arose I have not had an opportunity of speaking to him. I did speak to him when it came out in English just a few weeks ago, and he told me that he thought an edition of it in French might be required. But upon investigation the fact appears that those two French editions of the same author's wTork on the birds of eastern Canada have largely gone to the province of Quebec for study there. If there is any considerable demand for a French edition of Mr. Taverner's recent work, though it is a very expensive one, I have no doubt the wishes of my French Canadian col-

Supply-Miscellaneous-Electoral Officer
leagues would receive favourable consideration. I thought I would like to make that statement for fear there might be some misunderstanding in regard to the matter.


Mr. CHBVRIER:: I do not intend! to
continue the discussion on that point because I do not think this is the proper time for it, but may I say that in the Department of Mines there are many most interesting publications in English. A large proportion of the population of Canada feels, and I think quite properly so, if a work is important enough to be published in English, it ought to be sufficiently important to be published in French. I am not unmindful however of the fact that French translations of many of those publications are not asked) for, but that portion of the population nevertheless takes the attitude-and I think it is a proper one-that if financial conditions permit, one should not even have to ask for or to insist upon a French edition, but that both editions should be published concurrently. If a publication in English is important enough to be distributed throughout foreign countries in universities and museums, it should be important enough to be distributed in French. Probably when the proper time comes to discuss that question, I shall speak at greater length. I just wanted to make these remarks at the moment.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: My hon. friend will, I am
sure, agree with me that this is not my duty as the minister having charge of the bureau for translations. The bureau for translations is prepared to d'o its work, but it is for the national museum1, the Geological survey or others to ask for the necessary appropriations for publications and to request officially that a translation be made.


Jean-François Pouliot: May I tell the Secretary
of State that a great mistake made last year was in not paying attention to my colleague, the senior member for Ottawa (Mr. Chevrier), who had a wonderful plan to submit to my hon. friend with regard to translations. Had the minister been more conciliatory at that time, he would have received excellent suggestions from the senior member for Ottawa.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I thought the Secretary of
State was one of the most conciliatory members of the house.


Mr. McKENZIE (Assiniiboia):: In connection with this item of 822,735 to provide for salaries and- expenses of the bureau for translations, further amount required, the the Secretary of State mentioned that this
was due partly to the price spreadb investigation. It would be interesting to some of us to know just the total cost to the country of that investigation. It is cropping up here and there, and we have no idea1 what the total cost has been. I wonder whether the Secretary of State or some other member of the government would undertake to give us the full details.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I cannot give those details.
They are not in the Department of the Secretary of State; they would have to be gathered from several departments, and I am afraid the time is a little late for that.


Robert McKenzie: It is of
importance that the people of the country should know just what the price spreads investigation has cost, particularly because it has been such a washout Bo far as legislation is concerned.


Jean-François Pouliot: Not only that, but we
must know where to pub the report. It is so tremendous that one needs a special room to put it in and it serves no purpose, it is no good.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chief electoral officer-salaries and contingencies of office-further amount required, $40,000.
Charles Hazlitt Cahan: This is a new item. At
previous general elections such expenses as the salaries of temporary employees, printing, stationery, et cetera in connection with approaching general elections were charged to elections and paid out of the consolidated revenue fund. But the comptroller of the treasury has recently ruled that they are not properly chargeable to election expenses as such and must be paid out of some special appropriation provided in the estimates. We have no appropriation in the estimates except the ordinary contingency fund of the chief electoral officer. Therefore in order to comply with the requirements of the treasury department I have asked that this sum of 840,000 be provided for this purpose.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: When do
these general election expenses begin?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: So far as I am concerned
the sooner they begin the better.


Alan Webster Neill: There is a matter I should
like to bring to the attention of the minister, which ought to be remedied under this vote, even if we have to increase the amount. Last fall the list was made up of people
4102	COMMONS
Supply-Miscellaneous-Electoral Officer
entitled to vote. Each member of parliament and certain other people were given, I think, three copies, either typewritten or handwritten, of the list as made up at that date.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I did not know that.


Alan Webster Neill: Well, they were. It was,
of course, of great value. One of the first essentials of an election is to get on the list, and the second is to know whether you are on or not. Some months later, after the lists had been printed, we each got twenty-one copies of the list of each polling division. Up to that date we knew exactly where we were. When a man came to me and asked if he were on the list I could tell him. Now we have had a revision, which is just completed, and according to the advice I get from the department I have no means of knowing whether I am on the list or not, whether I am qualified to be a candidate or not, because to be a candidate one must be on some list. The procedure to be adopted apparently is that we are to be furnished with no list when the revision is completed but after the revised list is printed we will get the twenty-one copies as before. Those lists may be furnished to us perhaps a week before the election.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Oh, no.


Alan Webster Neill: It may well be; and in
scattered country districts it will be impossible to get those lists out to the polling stations in time. As I said, one of the first essentials is to know who is on the list and who is not. A man is entitled to know whether he is on or not. Under the plan that apparently has been adopted, or the regulations, it is not possible, unless by the courtesy of the registrar who may tell me, perhaps illegally, that I am on, for me to know whether I am on or anyone else is. I suggest the procedure should be followed that was followed last fall, that every member of parliament and others who are entitled to get it should be furnished with, say, two copies, typewritten or handwritten-it would suffice if they were only of the corrections. We want to know the people who have been added and those who have been struck off, and we want to know it soon after the revision is complete. It will be grossly unfair to a great many people if they have to guess whether they are on the list. We should get two copies, one for our own use and one to send to our representative in each polling station. I think the house will see the need for that, especially in the country. The cost would not be great, especially if it were limited to the corrections; let us take the expense of correcting our lists ourselves.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The typewritten lists which were given out, to which the hon. member refers, were not given out by the dominion franchise commissioner. Each registrar was instructed to give information to each candidate with regard to the preparation of the lists. I have no doubt that the registrar in the district which my hon. friend represents prepared for him these copies-


Alan Webster Neill: He was compelled to do it by law.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I know no such law. I think it was done simply as a matter of courtesy.


Alan Webster Neill: No, pardon me; it was done by law-it is part of the act.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Then the same law will probably apply-


Alan Webster Neill: No; I am advised by the head of the department that that is not to be tb.e rule, and that is what I am kicking about. I shall be perfectly satisfied if the same system is to be carried out as was carried out before, not by courtesy of any individual but by law, but I have been advised by the head of the department that the law is that we are not to be given any lists until they are printed, and they may not be available until perhaps within a week of the election.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: If my hon, friend will see that the electoral lists from his district are sent in in proper time, they should arrive by the tenth of July, and if so they will certainly foe printed by the fifteenth or twentieth.


Alan Webster Neill: Of July?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Yes, certainly, July. We have on the lists of last year-they say I carry these figures about with me for the convenience of the leader of the opposition-
5.800.000	names. Those names are all in type. We have on hand 350 tons of type for these names. The suggestion has been made by some newspaper correspondents that there are 250,000 new voters coming on the lists. I doubt that very much, but suppose there are
250.000	coming on and 250,000 removals and changes. I am told that the changes in the country districts are limited chiefly to those who have passed from this earthly sphere, and they are not numerous.


Edward James Young: And some are coming of age.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: We have a well organized printing establishment; I think it is the best organized and most efficient anywhere in Canada. When we were printing these names, working sometimes the whole twenty-four hours in order to comply with the wishes of

Supply-Miscellaneous-Electoral Officer
the right hon. leader of the opposition and enable me to fulfil my promises to him, we printed 100,000 a day. So far as printing the new lists, is concerned, if we get the names in, setting the new lines on the linotype for
500,000	names will be done in ten days. This talk in the newspapers about the election being long delayed because of delay in the printing bureau is due to the imaginative qualities of some newspaper correspondents.


Alan Webster Neill: If that statement is correct- of course I do not doubt the hon. gentleman's veracity-and he is able to deliver the goods, my complaint falls to the. ground. I do not like to say it when he is absent, but I think the Prime Minister himself said it would be late in September before these lists could be printed.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: There is no possibility now at this late stage of changing the law to which the hon. member refers. But the dominion franchise officer is an officer of this house and reports to the house and the government through the Secretary of State. I shall therefore take the earliest opportunity of consulting him, and suggesting that instructions be given that every facility be granted to candidates or prospective candidates to obtain the former printed lists, with such corrections as have been made, for use in their preliminary work in connection with the election.


Ross Wilfred Gray: The hon. member for Comox-Albemi has raised what in my opinion is a very important question. From the remarks of the Secretary of State I take it that the same procedure will be followed that was adopted by the registrars in our various ridings when the enumerators completed their lists, in other words that we wTill receive not a printed but a typewrtten list of the names added in the revision that has been going on since April 1. That is, the list will show the names struck off during the month of April, the names added during May and June, the names transferred and matters of that kind. Will all members and defeated candidates receive typewritten copies immediately the revising officers report to the dominion franchise commissioner at Ottawa? Will the same procedure be followed that was followed during the preparation of the lists in 1934; is that what I understand?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: What I have said is this: The dominion franchise officer is an officer of this house, and those registrars who are appointed by him are also officers of this house. I will convey to the dominion franchise commissioner the view that has been expressed as being the general view of the house, and I have no doubt that the suggestion will be carried into effect.


Alan Webster Neill: Let me tell the hon. member for West Lambton that I can answer his question better than the minister can answer it, apparently. I have in my possession a letter from the head of the department, dated within the last two days, stating exactly what I have said, that we will not get the lists for which my hon. friend has asked but that we will have to wait until they are all printed. The minister says that can be done by July 20. If that can be done it will be entirely satisfactory, but I beg leave to express doubt as to that. I certainly have that letter, in which I am told that the revised lists will not be furnished, as they were last fall, but that we will have to wait until they are all printed, which in some constituencies may mean a delay of months.


Ross Wilfred Gray: That is exactly what I understood, and I object very strongly. When that list is eventually printed the names that have been added will simply appear in alphabetical or geographical order, and unless one has an organization as efficient as the Secretary of State has in the riding of St. Lawrence-St. George one will not be able to tell exactly what names have been added. I strenuously object; if I have to hunt out the names that have been added I cannot possibly see them all in a week or ten days and convert them to the proper way of thinking. I want to know what names have been added to the list in this revision, and I think every member, every defeated candidate and every nominated candidate is entitled to that information. As I understand it, that is all the hon. member for Comox-Alberni desires, and I think that is all any hon. member desires. I think in fairness we are entitled to know what names have been added, what names have been transferred and what names have been struek off the list since the establishment of the basic list in 1934. As I understand it the Secretary of State simply says that we will be given a list, and if we have efficient organizations we will be able to check off those who were on the list in 1934, so we will know what names have been added since that time. Surely the hon. gentleman sees the point we are urging. Surely it would be a very simple matter to have extra copies made when reporting to the franchise commissioner. It is not too late; the revision does not close until to-morrow, so it should
4104	COMMONS
Supply-Miscellaneous-Electoral Officer
be a simple matter to strike an extra copy or two. If the Secretary of State will say that he will so instruct the franchise commissioner-


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: He is not under my instructions.


Ross Wilfred Gray: I am sorry, because I feel sure the Secretary of State would do so. In view of the fact that the hon. gentleman has expressed the feeling that the franchise commissioner would follow a suggestion made by the house I again urge that when the revising officers report to the franchise commissioner they send a copy to the candidate, and I think that will meet the situation.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I ask the Secretary of State if it would1 not be possible for some member of the ministry to bring this request to the attention of the franchise commissioner?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I offered to do so.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Then if my hon. friend will1 do that I think he will meet the situation.


Jean-François Pouliot: There is more to it than that. Some names have been struck off and others added to the basic list that has been supplied to us. May I ask the Secretary of State if a new basic list will be printed, without the names that have been struck off and with the names that have been added, and if each member will1 be supplied with twenty-one copies of that list, or whether we shall receive only a partial list containing the names that have been struck off on the one hand and those that have been added on the other?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: As I understand the law, and I am speaking from memory, as a retiring member of this house my horn, friend is entitled to receive twenty-one copies of the new print, and certainly he will receive them. The commissioner will do that; under the law it is his duty to do that. I understand further, though I may be mistaken, that the procedure followed will be for each registrar to send to the dominion franchise commissioner the old basic list, that is the list anterior to May 20 of this year. Through those names struck off a line will be drawn; for those names added new lines will be inserted. When the commissioner approves that list one copy will be sent to the printing bureau for the revision of the list in the composition room, and that will be carried
(Mr. Gray.]
out. I think it would meet the desire of my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni if the registrar were instructed1 to give each member who desired it a copy of the revised list which he sends in to the dominion franchise commissioner.


Alan Webster Neill: Two copies.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Well), I will; suggest to the dominion franchise commissioner that this appears to be the view of the house. That is as far as I can go. It would be a very delicate matter for me to interfere, but I will convey to him the view of the house.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am sure if the Secretary of State does that the franchise officer will be only too ready to meet the wishes of the hon. members of the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: Before the item is carried, may I ask the minister the cost of preparing the lists for the last general election, and what will be the cost in the present year, including the cost of printing and purchasing those tons of lead for galleys?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I cannot answer that. Those matters do not come under my department, and I have no charge of such expenditures in any way, shape or form. I have charge of the printing, in connection with which I have made full returns to the house which are available to the hon. member. As to the printing of the lists for the last election, the house is fully informed. I cannot give any other information because it does not come under my department.


Jean-François Pouliot: The minister states that the house is fully informed. He tells us nothing; how can we know? The lists were prepared in a certain way to effect economies, and now the minister cannot tell us what economies have been made. I remember distinctly that when the minister rose to submit certain legislation he said, "Here, we will save money this way." I ask him now, how did you save money that way; if the records are in the house>
look after them.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The hon. member is evidently suffering from an hallucination induced by the exuberance of his own imagination. I made no such statement to the house. In the statement I made I dealt only with the cost of composition and printing.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am not a somnambulist, and I am not dreaming; I remember what was said, and you must remember it yourself. We heard about saving money; I heard it, I think

Supply-Miscellaneous-Halifax Harbour
every hon. member heard it, and it is printed in Hansard. That is the reason the lists were made in a certain way. The legislation providing for the manner of preparing the lists was absurd. It has taken too much material; it has taken a long time, and not only that, the names are wrongly printed. The collection of the galleys has been badly done. Further, there will be a waste of paper because of revision of lists and because the government has waited too long to bring on the election. When I support the rights of the people and the policy of economy the minister states that I am suffering from hallucinations. Is he not ashamed of himself when he speaks that way? Did I ever go back to Lord Atholstan to receive my instructions? Never. Perhaps the one who went there suffered from hallucinations, and perhaps the one who suffered from hallucinations was the one who told the house that there would be economies when in fact there is such a waste that h-e cannot afford to tell the amounts to the committee. He does not give us the information, but simply tells us about the huge quantity of lead. Is it 5,000 or 50,000 tons? The building might crumble. It is like a mine; it should be picketed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide necessities for George Black, M.P., $500.
Abraham Albert Heaps: I should like to know as a matter of information if in these circumstances an hon. member would receive his full indemnity?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: As has obtained in every session, a sum has been provided in the estimates allocated to hon. members who are passing through illness. In this instance I have no doubt the treasury board will take the usual course.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Do I understand that in
this instance the hon. member will receive his full indemnity?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I would expect that full
indemnity would be provided for the dependents of the hon. member. This item has to do with hospital necessities.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses of wheat advisory committee for 1935, Canada's assessment, $1,955.
Edward James Young: Is this the committee which advised the government in drawing up the wheat agreement we heard so much about a few years ago?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like
this item to stand.
Item stands.
Grant to the committee on arrangements for the meeting of the national conference of social work, 1935, $3,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Is this a conference called by the government?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I shall see if I have a
memorandum in connection with it.


Hugh Guthrie: I believe the item has
to do with the international conference held in Montreal last week.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: All right.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Loan to the Halifax harbour commissioners with interest at a rate to be fixed by the governor in council, for such period and upon such terms and conditions as the governor in council may determine, to retire the obligation incurred in connection with settlement of the claims of J. P. Porter & Sons, Limited, $118,985.80.
Mr. HEAP'S:	What was the claim in this
instance?
Alfred Duranleau: 
Abraham Albert Heaps: Was that the engineers'
report?


Alfred Duranleau: Yes, the engineers' report.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Did you obtain a legal
opinion?


Alfred Duranleau: It was an engineering matter.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Was not a question of law
involved?


Alfred Duranleau: Of course some question of law would be involved. It was done after reports were duly received from the engineers, and I am not sure whether or not the legal department has considered the matter.
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However, we thought that under the circumstances it would be better to settle than to attempt to defend a claim of more than 1521,000.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Why did the company put
all the extra material into the work? Who gave them authority to do that?


Alfred Duranleau: It was not extra
material; it was a difference in measurements made by our engineers in Halifax and those made by the engineers of the contractor. The main amount was for that difference. Our engineer was Mr. MacDonald who as hon. members are aware is now living in England. With the help of two other engineers we went over the figures, measurements 'and so on and finally they made a report that a settlement in the amount named in the vote would be in the interest of the department.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How did it come about that there was this great discrepancy between the figures of the government engineers and those of the contractors? A final claim of $500,000 is enormous.


Alfred Duranleau: This contract was for a very large amount.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How much?


Alfred Duranleau: I have not the figure before me, but I believe it was between two and a half and three million dollars.


Abraham Albert Heaps: If it was two million dollars there was a difference of twenty-five per cent in the amount of yardage as between the engineers of the government and the contractors.


Alfred Duranleau: It was not all yardage. There was a claim for extra work; the foundation was deeper than had been expected. There are a good many details in the company's claims, and the ultimate claim would have been a great deal more, so that we thought it was in the interests of the department to make the settlement after the engineers had so reported.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Perhaps I may be allowed to say a word; I happen to have some knowledge of the item, having been at pains to make particular inquiry regarding it. As a result of a contract entered into some years ago in connection with Halifax harbour, J. P. Porter and Sons were paid in the neighbourhood of S3,600,000 for contract work. On the completion of the work there was a difference of opinion between the engineers of the government and those of the company with respect to measurement. There was no quarrel as to prices or terms.


Abraham Albert Heaps: On what basis was the contract let?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: On a yardage basismeasurement. It was not for a fixed sum. The company made a claim for something like $500,000; I believe it was in excess of that. It is not uncommon, in fact it is a very common experience, to have a minimum variation of ten per cent in a firm contract price and a larger variation in connection with measurement prices. This settlement is much less than ten per cent, and I had the fear myself-I wish to take the full responsibility so far as I am personally concerned- that if action were brought by the contractors they would succeed, and instead of a settlement of $118,000 they would be paid a much larger sum. Inasmuch as it was passed upon and approved by two independent engineers selected by the department, men of high repute who made the finding that this would be a fair settlement, and seeing that the contractors agreed to take it, I have no hesitation in saying that in the public interest we were wise in settling the claim and closing for this sum the contract with respect to this particular piece of construction.


Thomas Reid: Are the harbour commissioners of Halifax and Quebec meeting interest on loans?


Alfred Duranleau: From the government?


Thomas Reid: Yes.


Alfred Duranleau: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compassionate grant to Joseph Wilson, Halifax, $7,500.
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):: What is the explanation of this item?


Hugh Guthrie: I understand what the item is, but I do not know that I am the one to explain it. It is a compromise on a judgment which was obtained in a suit by Joseph Wilson against a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The judgment was something like $12,500. The incident arose in this way. A bullet was fired from the pistol of a mounted policeman who was performing his duty, watching for rum runners in Nova Scotia. A car was ordered to stop at night and did not do so, and on the running board there was a man who was not engaged as one of the rum runners, but had been trying to fix the car, which had broken down. When the car would not stop the policeman fired, and instead of hitting the occupants the bullet hit the man who was on the running board. He was hit in the

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head and very seriously wounded. Action was brought against the crown, but of course the action did not lie against the crown and judgment was given against the individual member of the police force. The man has been very seriously injured, in all probability for life. It is a question whether his mentality will ever be restored, and this represents a settlement of the action in which he recovered judgment for $12,500 damages, and which of course he cannot recover against the individual.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compassionate grant to Captain Aime Dion, Montmagny, P.Q., $7,500.
Hugh Guthrie: This is a most unfortunate matter. It is another claim for damages by reason of the action of a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who seemed suddenly to have become mentally deranged. There was a boat belonging to the forest reserve of the provincial government and which was going down the St. Lawrence. It was directed to call at a certain wharf for the purpose of delivering a summons that had to be served. When the forest reserve boat landed at the wharf, where there is a detachment of mounted police, a member of the force named Duranleau boarded the boat immediately, drew his pistol and charged the boat with having contraband liquor. He did not give the captain time to explain at all but drew his revolver and fired three or four bullets into him. It was seen at the time that the policeman was not in normal condition; some people thought he was intoxicated. He was promptly arrested and put in prison, and in due course brought to trial, but at the trial he was found not guilty on the ground of insanity, and is now confined in one of the provincial asylums. The unfortunate captain of the boat was very seriously injured, probably maimed for life. He has been in hospital for twenty-three months and it is doubtful whether he will ever recover the use of one of his limbs into which three bullets entered. His hospital and medical bill now exceeds $3,000, and his wages, which he 'has lost, $1,500. He has presented a claim for $10,000 additional for damages. Settlement has been offered in the sum of $7,500, which his representatives are prepared to accept.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for payments of interest under, and to hereby approve of the terms and conditions of orders in council P.C. 1462 and P.C. 1533 of June 7, 1935, respecting orders of steel rails for the Canadian National Railway Company, $30,000.
William Daum Euler: Will the minister explain this?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It will be recalled that a provision was made whereby contracts could be entered into to provide equipment, rails and rolling stock for the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Pacific Railway. This vote is to provide for the interest carrying charges which the government may be called upon to pay as a result of that agreement.


William Daum Euler: To the banks?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The provision was that the government would carry the interest upon the money invested by the companies in the purchase of equipment up to a given date. This is to provide for the interest for this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide, subject to the approval of the treasury board, for salaries, reclassifications and increases and to authorize payment of the salary of any employee, who is made permanent, from the appropriation under which his salary as a temporary employee has been provided- further amount required, $1,000,000.
Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: Will the minister kindly explain the words, "subject to the approval of the treasury board"? I should like to know what reclassifications and increases are contemplated and in what manner they will be effected.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: It is estimated that the
statutory increases will require $750,000, and the balance of $250,000 will provide for other increases, reclassifications and promotions which may be effected as a result of regulations to be laid down by the treasury board.


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: Am I right in assuming that increases and promotions will be left entirely in the hands of the treasury board?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Subject to regulations which will be provided by order in council.


Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: This will be a complete departure from the procedure which obtained hitherto when promotions and increases were recommended by the civil service commission after investigation, or by recommendation of a deputy head, certified by the head of a department and ratified by the treasury board. The civil service commission is to be eliminated completely in connection with reclassifications, which term is used instead of promotions. The civil service commission is to be eliminated also in connection with increases.
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Edgar Nelson Rhodes: No, that is not right. There will be some variation in the .practice which has obtained hitherto, but there is every reason to expect that when the regulations are promulgated they will prove generally satisfactory to the service.


Lionel Chevrier: I do not intend to enter into a lengthy controversy with the Minister of Finance, but I am satisfied that all the work which was done previously by the' civil service commission in connection with promotions and increases will be taken away from the commission and placed within the exclusive jurisdiction of the treasury board. The minister states that the statutory increases will require something like 8750,000, and I should like to know if he means that everyone entitled to an increase is to receive one. The Prime Minister made it quite plain the other day that hereafter promotions would be made and increases given for merit and efficiency only. That is not a departure from the previous procedure because the Civil Service Act states that statutory increases are made for meritorious and efficient work and granted upon recommendation of the deputy head, certified by the minister and approved by the commission subject to ratification by the treasury board. I am afraid that the civil service commission is .to be left out of things. The deputy head will choose his pets and make recommendations to the treasury board which will probably be sanctioned.
The civil service commission is there for a particular purpose and we either need it or we do not need it. If the government is honest in its purpose, why does it not say that the civil service commission should be abolished? All during this session we have had departures from the provisions of the Civil Service Act, and the estimates are replete with promotions made outside the provisions of that act. I am not quarrelling with those who have been fortunate enough, to receive promotions, but the fact remains that there has been a tremendous amount of discrimination in these matters. I am sure that the promotions and increases which have been made would have been given to others had the civil service commission been handling the matter. I protest most vigorously against this departure from the provisions of the Civil Service Act. The Civil Service Act is on the statute book, and I resent the insinuation that heretofore a large number of .promotions and increases have been given to those who did not deserve them and that hereafter only those who are entitled to them will receive them. I noticed an article in the press which 
I am afraid has created a wrong impression. An official of the Department of Finance was asked if these would be statutory increases, and he said that they would not be automatic, they would be given for efficiency. That is the way the statute reads. He continued and stated that the government believes in efficiency and businesslike methods, so that the increases will be given entirely on merit. The insinuation there is that the increases and promotions of the past were not based ,on merit, but were .purely automatic. That is not a fair statement. I do not want to prolong the discussion, but I would point this out to the minister: in the session of 1932, I think it was, when the ten per cent deductions were made, I indicated to him-and he realized the importance of the statement I made then- that when the deductions were to 'be terminated, steps should be taken not only to compensate the employees for the injury suffered by reason of the ten per cent deduction during the years it was in force, but also to place them in the position they would have occupied with reference to promotions and statutory increases had the changes then proposed not been made. I could give the Minister of Finance the page in Hansard where I said that steps should 'be taken, when the time came for the restoration of the ten per cent deduction, to make these compensations and adjustments. I am very much afraid that in. this item of 81,000,000 there is nothing that has the slightest bearing upon placing civil servants in the position they would have occupied in respect of superannuation and with reference to promotions and statutory increases had the salary deduction not been made. That is what I want to urge upon the Minister of Finance. I understand during the recess this matter of .promotions and statutory increases will be taken up by the cabinet and rules or regulations will be made in regard to the granting of them. I hope when, the matter is under consideration the important factor will be taken into account that these civil servants must be placed with reference to superannuation in the position they would have occupied had these deductions not been made and had the promotions and statutory increases been granted. I protest against this most radical departure from the present system, this cutting loose from the provisions of the Civil Service Act.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I think the senior member for Ottawa is hardly warranted in making the statement that the estimates are replete with examples of promotions being made outside the provisions of the Civil Service Act.

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Edgar-Rodolphe-Eugène Chevrier: There were seventytwo given out in the return brought down the other day.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I think the record of the
government in that respect has not been exceptional, and I do not think there has been any expansion of the practice. Regulations are required because of the peculiar nature of the conditions that have arisen by reason of the circumstance that deductions have been made over a period of years. My hon. friend knows full well' that superannuation has never been interfered with; the ten per cent deduction has no bearing upon superannuation. The only question which *nay arise is, if I may put it in this way, the amount of increased salary that a certain employee would have received had he received the statutory promotions in the ordinary automatic course. In view of the fact that there have been deductions over the last three years, we have to have special regulations to deal with that situation. I may assure my hon. friend and the committee that there is no intention on the part of the treasury board to lay down regulations so far as the letter of the law will permit with regard to these civil servants, but we feel in the public interest there can be a better class of administration if there is a closer check held by the treasury board over expenditures.
My hon. friend has said that there are no cases in which promotion has been given except on merit. I may say to him that I take second place to no one in my admiration of the civil service as a whole, but there are in the service some cases, not numerous, where men have received promotions who did not deserve them by any standard of measure, efficiency, qualification or otherwise. So far as the person is concerned who is entitled to promotion, his rights will not be interfered with in the slightest degree. We will address ourselves to this matter as speedily as possible after the house rises, and I hope it will appear to ,my hon. friend that the course taken will be satisfactory.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To pay to the estate of the late General Sir Arthur William Currie, G.C.M.G.,	K.C.B.,
LL.D., in recognition of the eminent services rendered to his country by the deceased general during the great war, $50,900.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: 
James Shaver Woodsworth: I regret to have to register a protest against this grant. The late Sir Arthur Currie may have tendered eminent services during the war; into that matter I do not intend to enter, but I would say that there were tens of thousands of Canadian officers and private soldiers who did their best during that period and who rendered in their own spheres just as great service as that of Sir Arthur
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Currie. I would say that the late Sir Arthur Currie and his family were well taken, care of during the war and since. I think of the large numbers of the rank and file who have had1 no such tribute paid' to them and no such material care, although they are sadly in need of it. In my own city a few days ago there were hundreds of men camped outside the hospital, urging that they, as returned men, should be given at least as large an amount of relief as the ordinary civilians of Winnipeg. Only to-day I was stopped on the street by two men wearing returned men's buttons, who claimed that they could not obtain relief from the city of Ottawa and that for various reasons they were turned down even at the legion shelter here. Anyone who is up and down this country must come across no end of cases of that sort. Until such time as we feel that we have enough to provide for the rank and file of the returned men as well as for the large numbers of younger men who are coming along, I think it is quite improper that we should make such a large grant as this to one individual. We say we do not stand for class distinctions in this country, but in passing a grant of this kind we are setting up certain class distinctions that in my judgment are injurious to the best interests of this country. I differ from the right hon. leader of the opposition, and1 suggest that there are large numbers of Canadians who will deeply resent special treatment of this kind.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would mention just two points in reply to my hon. friend. One has referenoe to his remark that the late Sir Arthur Currie has been well cared for. I might remind my hon. friend that Sir Arthur Currie has been in his grave for some time, and he is in his grave because of broken health resulting from the service he gave his country overseas. May I remind my hon. friend also that this grant takes nothing away from any other returned man. If it took anything from any living soldier, any private in the ranks, I would be the last to support it. But there are times when individuals, even members of parliament, stand for communities as a whole, and the recognition of their services is looked upon as the recognition of the service of the community they represent. General Sir Arthur Currie represented the Canadian army corps overseas; he represented the people of Canada in the great war; in his service overseas, he represented what Canada stood for, and I for one believe that- that service was part of a service to humanity rendered at a time of the world's greatest need.


Hugh Guthrie: I am sorry that my right hon. leader is not in his place at this moment, but in his absence I desire to say that I entirely agree with the remarks of my right hon. friend the leader of the opposition. I am very glad that at last we are recognizing to some extent at least the great service performed for this country by the late Sir Arthur Currie. I only wish it had been done during his lifetime.


Angus MacInnis: It is not a very nice thing to have to oppose a grant of this kind, particularly after the man for whom it is made has passed away, but I think I must take exception to it. I cannot agree with the statement of the leader of the opposition that it does not take anything away from anyone else. If it does not; if there is sufficient for every returned soldier in need and the widow of every returned soldier who passed away because of injury received during the war, why do they not get it? I have before me an item that I clipped from the Vancouver paper that came, I think, yesterday. This is what I find:
Many returned soldiers and their families are urgently in need of clothing and shoes. If donors will telephone the returned soldiers' club, contributions will be called for.
Why should one man's family receive S50,000 and the families of other soldiers who gave their all-gave their life, and no man can give more-have to do with other people's cast off clothing? I protest against this grant until every returned man and -every soldier's widow has at least a decent standard of living.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: May I
say to my hon. friend from Vancouver South (Mr. Maclnnis) that he is mixing two entirely different questions. I think there are some in this house, I say it with all respect and deference, who have done more than he has done-


Angus MacInnis: I ask the hon. gentleman to retract that. There is nothing against me as a citizen of this country.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: If my
hon. friend will allow me to finish my sentence, I mean in the solution of soldiers' problems.


Angus MacInnis: Well, I did my share,
whatever was called for.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: I was
not casting the slightest reflection on my hon. friend; he took me up too soon. I say many of us in this house have devoted many years to the solution of soldiers' problems; I think I may claim that I am as

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conversant with those problems as my hon. friend, and if I thought for one instant that this grant would interfere in the slightest degree with giving full justice to every widow, orphan, and dependent of a Canadian soldier or every disabled soldier in Canada I would not support it. But I do not think so. I think it symbolizes the effort of the Canadian army in the great war. This house has at all times unanimously and regardless of party supported the utmost efforts to care for the widows, orphans and dependents of those who served overseas. I am sure this House of Commons will continue to do so, and to see that every Canadian pensioner or soldier who deserves a pension will get the utmost that can be given. That is not a party question in this house; we are all for it. I agree with my right hon. leader that by this act of justice we should indicate to the widow of the late Sir Arthur Currie our recognition of the services of the man who was privileged to lead our gallant Canadians overseas.


Angus MacInnis: Then as this is not going to take anything from any other returned soldier or returned soldier's widow or family, I suggest that we make a contribution to every other returned soldier or returned soldier's widow, not of 850,000 but, since we have enough, of 81,000, and see that that grant is paid as long as they need it. I should like my hon. friend to support that.


Robert McKenzie: I must say that I cannot favour this vote. There are hundreds of returned men among the two thousand assembled to-day in Regina who are protesting against a pittance of twenty cents a day in the relief camps. When they see that no.t a returned man but the estate of a returned man is being paid 850,000 a year-


Hugh Guthrie: 
Robert McKenzie: Well, $50,000 to his estate. There are plenty of returned men in the constituency I represent who are in real distress to-day. All they want is a chance to earn a living, and it is not provided for them. If there is any real necessity for a vote of this kind, why not grant a certain amount yearly? We all know that Sir Arthur Currie rendered great services, but if there is any real distress in his family why not grant a yearly allowance to his estate? I am entirely opposed to a grant of $50,000 to the estate of any man, no matter what may have been his reputation in the past.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for expenses of the comptroller of the treasury's office - further amount required, $80,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This had
better be held.
Item stands.
Allowance to the representative of the Department of Finance as a member of the Canadian Farm Loan board, during tenure, $1,500.


Jean-François Pouliot: May I ask the minister
if the farm loan board is operating now in the province of Quebec?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes, Mr. Chairman.


Jean-François Pouliot: And Mr. Baillargeon is in charge in that province?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Yes.


Thomas Reid: I wonder if the minister could give any information as to what the government are paying those who have been appointed in the various provinces. I know in the province of British Columbia a new appointee, Mr. Hellmer, has taken charge. I wonder if the minister has that information.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I am afraid I have not the exact salaries here; if I have not I am content to let the item stand.


Thomas Reid: Perhaps the minister could
send me the information.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I am content to let the item stand; I will obtain that information.
Item stands.
Grant to 1'Association Canadienne-Fraucaise des Aveugles to assist in work with the blind, $4,050.	'


James Shaver Woodsworth: I rise not to oppose this vote but to ask why other similar associations are not given grants as well. There is an association that appeared before our committee dealing with the question of pensions for the blind, the Canadian Federation for the Blind, which I think has been doing very good work right across the country. I understand it has some twelve branches; I know it has been very active in my own city as well as in Toronto, Montreal and elsewhere. It would seem to me highly desirable that this association should have a grant as well. I know there is an item here for the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, but as I understand it the type of work carried on by the Canadian National Institute differs very materially from that carried on by the Canadian Federation for the Blind. I regret exceedingly, as I feel a great many members of this house regret, that apparently we are
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not to have any legislation providing for pensions for the blind. I wish, even at this late hour, the government could see its way clear to reconsider that decision, but especially in view of that fact it seems to me that the blind ought to be given some encouragement to carry on the type of educational work they have been carrying on in order to improve their condition. I hope the minister will consider the possibility of making a similar grant to this other organization.


The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Spotton):: Carried.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Just a moment. I have asked whether the minister will not consider the claim of this other organization. A few moments ago we were told that an item had been put at a certain figure because no other figure had been asked. Have there been no requests for a grant on behalf of this Canadian Federation for the Blind, or is there anjr reason why they should not have a similar grant?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Mr. Chairman, I cannot recall offhand whether or not there was a specific request from the organization to which my hon. friend refers, but if they missed making a request it would be unique, because I may say to my hon. friend that one of the great difficulties of a minister of finance is the preparation of miscellaneous items for either the main or the supplementary estimates. The requests come in not by the dozen but by the hundred, requests of every conceivable kind, and while in the winnowing process there may be an injustice done here or there I am sure not only this government but all governments do the best they can to hold the balance fairly even and to deal with individual compassionate items on their merits.
In the 'case of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, that was an oldi institution, in good standing and country wide in its operation, and because of the difficult times through which we have been passing the sources of private donations, which hitherto have been if not ample at least reasonably sufficient to m-etet the needs of the organization, to a large extent have dried up. The result has been that unless somebody came to the rescue of the organization and assisted it in connection with its debt loan, its work would be very seriously impaired. This special item was therefore put in the estimates for the purpose of endeavouring to enable that very worthy organization to carry on. It toy no means follows that because this or any other organization is given special consideration in the estimates there are not other worthy organizations which might be 
included, but we must try to keep our sense of proportion and do the best we can in the circumstances. I should be glad to make further inquiry more specifically with respect to the organization which my hon. friend from Winnipeg North 'Centre has mentioned, and I may say to him that we certainly will give sympathetic consideration to it, as we have endeavoured to do in connection with all these compassionate items. I think that same statement could be made with regard to any minister of finance or any government w*e have had at any time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The Economic Council of Canada Act, 1935, [$20,090.
Jean-François Pouliot: May I ask the minister
if the members of the economic council have been appointed and, if so, who they are and when they were appointed?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I do not .think they have been appointed.


Jean-François Pouliot: This is most extraordinary. I remember very well when the right hon. member for Argenteuil (Sir George Per-ley) rose in his place and said that for the assistance of the Prime Minister the appointment of an economic council, a super brain trust, was urgent. The enactment was passed; nothing has been done. The Prime Minister seems better than ever; he appears to be in good health; he is in the house more than he was before, and there is no economic council. We do not need it. Moreover, sir, I strongly object to that economic council because it is a direct insult to every member of the cabinet. Either the members of the government are lompetent or they are not. If they are competent we do not need an economic council; if they are incompetent let them say good-bye to us. I want to defend the dignity of the members of the cabinet; I am acting on their behalf, and I find this legislation extremely stupid. There wais some talk in the press that this and that gentleman would be appointed to the economic council to advise the government -to advise the government now that all the legislation has been passed. .It has been said already that the government is eating soup for dessert; I see every minister with a toothpick in his mouth before luncheon and before dinner. It is most extraordinary; it is incredible; it is inconceivable. This legislation was to save the country'; this council was to improve the legislation, and all the legislation was baked)-I mean half-baked-before any member of this economic

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council was appointed. Sir, it is a farce; it is a joke. In the United States there was a brain trust which turned out to be no good, and the president appointed) a super brain trust. He left the brain trust that was no good underneath and put on top of it a super 'brain trust, instead of dispensing with the first.
The only reason for this economic council is to give these hair-splitters who try to put their dreams into operation a chance to see what they can do. I should like to ask the present leader of the government to drop this vote. The taxpayers of Canada will have to pay this amount if this item is passed; they will have to pay taxes in order to keep that economic council going when it is an insult to each and every member of the cabinet including the Prime Minister. It is a crutch which is half broken before it is used. I am asking the government to drop this vote, because it is a waste of money.


Edward James Young: When the bill to establish an economic council was before the house I understood that this body would not cost the country one cent. I thought it was to be composed of men already in the civil service who would act on the council free of charge and would receive no additional remuneration. How will the $20,000 be spent?


Mr. SPENCE:: Your understanding was wrong, probably.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: I have no details of the item, because it does not come under my department. The hon. member will realize, however, that there would1 be certain expenses to be met.


Edward James Young: What for? They live in Ottawa, and they meet here once in a while in a room paid for by the government.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The hon. member would not expect them to stay here all the time. However, if there is any question about it, I am content that it should stand.
Item stands.
Amount required for compassionate allowances to farmers who have suffered loss on account of shipments of cattle made through the Richelieu Corporation, during the fiscal year 1933-34. Payments to be made only on the specific authority of the governor in council, $42,000.


Robert Gardiner: Will the minister explain this vote?


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):: It is to provide compensation to farmers in western Canada who consigned goods to the Richelieu
Corporation under the mistaken belief that that corporation was bona fide and carrying on under government auspices. There is no legal liability on the government, but it is felt that the expenditure is justified on compassionate grounds.


Robert Gardiner: How did it happen that these people consigned goods on the assumption indicated by the minister. Did they act on an advertisement of the corporation?


Richard Burpee Hanson: My information is that, without knowledge of the department, the Richelieu Corporation went through a portion of western Ontario and stated that the department had assisted in providing stalls for the two ships fitted out by the corporation and used this statement as evidence of the good faith of the Richelieu Corporation. In this way they induced farmers to consign goods to them.


Robert Gardiner: I assume that the corporation was made up of individuals. Was any action taken against the individuals to recover the property so consigned?


Richard Burpee Hanson: My recollection is that the corporation went into bankruptcy. A criminal charge was laid against the officers of conspiracy to defraud; I understand the charge failed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide hereby, notwithstanding anything contained in The Consolidated Revenue and Audit Act or any other act or law, for payment out of the consolidated) revenue fund to the present Canadian Minister to France of an annuity at the rate of $3,000, to commence upon his retirement and to continue thereafter at the above rate during his lifetime, $3,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like the item to stand. The hon. member for Quebec East, among others, wishes to speak on it.
Item stands.
To enable the governor in council for and as one of the purposes of section 9 of the Supplementary Public Works Construction Act, 1935, to authorize the Minister of Finance to make loans to the railway companies for the betterment or repair of railway equipment out of any sum authorized by subsection 4 of said section 9 to be expended for the purchase of railway equipment, any such loan to be in reduction of the sum so authorized to be expended, $1.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Would the minister explain this vote? It looks more like an act of parliament than an estimate.
Supply-M iscellaneous


Robert James Manion: This is done for the purpose of permitting the Minister of Finance to advance moneys for repairs, rather than to guarantee securities. It does not increase the expenditures in any way, but it does permit him to advance moneys.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This seems an odd way to do it. Should it not be part of an act of parliament?


Robert James Manion: It could have been done as a modification of Bill No. 93, but it was thought preferable to do it in this way


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: The bill was passed. This action was taken at the instance of the Department of Railways and Canals, and I took no exception because the original bill had passed both houses, and to pass a second bill respecting a similar matter during one session would seem to be a cumbersome procedure. This method was adopted for the convenience of the companies and it will not cost the treasury one cent.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: More government by order in council?


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide, notwithstanding the terms of the Civil Service Act or any other act or law, for payment of honoraria to members of the public service-subject to allocation by the treasury board, $10,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: A few moments ago an item somewhat similar to this was called and exception was taken to it. I believe it is a dangerous procedure to give a government power to pay honoraria out of the public revenues to members of the public service without naming them in the estimates.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: Under the circumstances I believe the item should stand. It was submitted by the Prime Minister, and I believe he has a special consideration in mind.
Item stands.
Miscellaneous, including printing and stationery; subscriptions to commercial papers; flags; dating stamps; locks; instruments; express charges on samples; legal forms; legal expenses; premiums on guarantee bonds; uniforms for customs-excise officers; laboratory equipment and supplies, etc.-further amount required, $25,090.
Mr. PO'ULIOT: As this item relates to printing perhaps I may get some information from the government about the printing of the lists. I asked the Secretary of State for the information and he referred me to returns. I
rMr. Mackenzie King.]
wonder if the government could give any statement as to the cost of printing election lists. If they cannot do so now possibly they would let the item stand.


The CHAIRMAN:: This is printing in connection with the Department of National Revenue, and has nothing to do with the printing of voters' lists.


Jean-François Pouliot: Oh, well, printing is done by the printing bureau. Everything is so badly mixed up in the supplementary estimates that this vote might include something for the printing of lists. The item should stand until the Secretary of State is present to state whether or not this vote includes an expenditure for revision of lists.


Mr. MATTHEWS:: It does not include any expenditure for such printing.


Jean-François Pouliot: I take your word.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Printing of parliamentary and departmental publications - further amount required to provide for the Canada Year Book, $2i5,000.
Edward James Young: In the present session we have passed .many bills which have been sent to the other chamber, amended and sent back to this chamber. Some of the amendments have been accepted and some rejected. Then they have gone back to the upper chamber sometimes for further amendment. The result is that very few members know exactly how any of these bills read to-day. This afternoon we went to the other chamber at which time royal assent was given to certain bills. I do not know exactly how they read in their final form. I went to the distribution office and asked for copies of them as they are now, but I was told that they were not printed and would not be printed. We will not know how those bills read until the published volume comes out later.


Hugh Guthrie: The hon. member could get them from the Senate, and in the distribution office.


Edward James Young: No.


Hugh Guthrie: The clerk of the Senate would give them to the hon. member.


Ian Alistair Mackenzie: Why
should we have to go there for them?


Edward James Young: Could they not be put in the distribution office?

Supply-M iscellaneous


Hugh Guthrie: They are not yet printed.
I understood the hon. member wanted to know what was in them and what was not in them, as finally passed.


Edward James Young: Yes, we wanted to know what they oontained in their final form.


Hugh Guthrie: The clerk of the Senate would let the hon. member see them.


Edward James Young: I want to have the bill as it is finally passed, so I may take it home and tell people what is in it. I am told these bills will not be available until the published volume comes out some months later.


Mr. HANSON (York-Sunfoury):: That has been the usual practice.


Edward James Young: Some provision should be made.


Hugh Guthrie: I believe they are published in the Canada Gazette almost immediately after their passage. If the hon. member will look in the Canada Gazette he will find them.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am sorry, but the minister is mistaken. I must tell him that the bills are not printed in the Canada Gazette. Sometimes orders in council are printed, but not as many as we would wish. It is a fact that the bills are not so printed. I am very sorry that the Minister of Justice has to slip like that; I am very sorry for him. Rut what happens? The minister has made the mistake in this way: It is the official gazette of the province of Quebec which publishes a supplement in French and English of the public bills. It is bilingual, and I believe in this respect the province of Quebec has set a good example for the dominion government to follow.


Hugh Guthrie: They do in Ontario too.


Jean-François Pouliot: That is good; I am sorry that such confusion exists.


Hugh Guthrie: If any hon. member
desires a copy of the bill he can get it by applying to the clerk of the Senate.


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not see why we should go into the corridors like messenger boys to get copies of bills. It should be the business of the Minister of Justice to see to it that every member of parliament is supplied with a complete set of the bills that have been passed, so that they can be obtained immediately after parliament prorogues.


Hugh Guthrie: I suggest that the hon. member bring in a bill to that effect. Under the law now and for the last sixty years these bills have not been printed.


Edward James Young: There is no law against it.


Hugh Guthrie: Under what authority will you do it?


Jean-François Pouliot: The hon. gentleman says that no bills are ready, but he told us a minute ago to go to the Senate. If they do not exist how can you get them?


Hugh Guthrie: I said you could get a copy of the bill at the Senate at any time. The clerk of the Senate will give it. I have received them the day after prorogation, certified with a big seal on them.


Jean-François Pouliot: I do not care for the seal; what I want is the bill. The Minister of Justice told us to go to the Senate to get the bills, and now he says that the bills are not printed. What does his explanation mean?


Hugh Guthrie: I mean that you can get a copy of that bill as passed, certified by the clerk of parliament, and you will get a big ribbon and a seal on it.


Jean-François Pouliot: There is no clerk of parliament. There is a clerk of the House of Commons and a clerk of the Senate, but there is no clerk of parliament. How, therefore, can I get it from the clerk of parliament?


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: I agree with the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Young) that, this year particularly, when so many new and important bills have been passed, bills that have been so extensively amended, it is difficult to know just what each bill finally contains and what the clauses mean, without having the bill as finally adopted. I am not talking about going home and spouting on the election platform, but every constituent at home has a right to ask his member of parliament what a particular bill is as finally passed. I have had numerous requests not merely for copies of bills but for an explanation of precisely what some particular bill provides, the terms of the bill, the powers embodied in it and what must be done under it. But I have not been able to give definite information; I have simply had to assure those who inquired that I should have to wait until the bill finally passed both houses of parliament, because bills are so extensively amended that you cannot tell in what form any bill will finally emerge. It is far more important this year than ever before that bills should be available in completed form to every member of parliament who wants them. Will bills be

Supply-M iscellaneous

available in the Senate in sufficient numbers to enable all members of the house to receive copies? If not, then the suggestion that copies of the bill can be obtained means little. It is practically useless if they are so limited in numiber that every member cannot receive i copy.


Jean-François Pouliot: You, Mr. Chairman, are
l man of great learning, and you know the maxim, ignorantia legis neminem excusat- ignorance of the law excuses no one. But, 3ir, this is very serious. The reason why there are so many amendments is the fact that the legislation has been half baked. It has been prepared by third rate clerks who do not know their job and who hand out to the government such rotten legislation that they have to amend it this way and that. It is a patchwork which it is impossible to describe, and then it goes to the Senate and when it comes back no minister is able to recognize his brain child. Who can get a clear idea of the law maker's intent? In the last five years every bill has been turned upside down from the moment of its introduction into this house until the amendments have received their last reading. Something should be done, and I hope we shall be able to find out what has been passed during this session. Perhaps it is the intention of the government to prevent the people of Canada from finding out what legislation they have passed; they are probably so much ashamed of it that they do not want the Canadian people to know what their achievements amount to. But does anyone expect any member of parliament, with the vast amount of correspondence that must be carried on, and the reading of blue-books and all that, to follow every change in a bill as shown in the votes and proceedings? It is absurd. It is the more absurd because very often bills go to the privy council and changes are made at great expense to the exchequer through faulty drafting. It was proved in the committee on translations last year that there was great lack of knowledge on the part of those who drafted the legislation. It had been printed five or six times before it suited the taste of the cabinet members. If any bill can be printed so many times before it is approved by them I do not see why it cannot be printed once for all for the use of members once it has become the law of the land. The waste occurs before the bill is considered by the cabinet, and when we need the bill in its final form we cannot get it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Mr. Speakman.J
Weights and measures inspection service- further amount required, $35,600.
Edward James Young: Is this in connection with
the price spreads report

the majority report I mean?


Richard Burpee Hanson: It has
some connection with it. The sum of $35,000 is required, or alleged to be required, by the departmental officers for certain expenses. I may say that the amount of this vote has been reduced in recent years and it is necessary to employ extra help to meet conditions which have arisen by reason of the administration of the Weights and Measures Act and the general policy of the department to enforce the act in consequence of the price spreads investigation, and for additional services.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad-further amount required, $2,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: I think I should make an explanation of this item. It is to permit the holding of an essay competition in Australia, with a view to making Canada better known in that country. The pupils of the secondary schools in the various states of Australia will be invited to submit essays on Canada, and the successful' contestant will be awarded a return trip to Canada as a prize. Recently the Australian government, through its trade commissioner, held a similar competition in Canada and the successful contestant is shortly to leave on a visit to Australia. I may say that this competition was requested to be held by the Australian trade commissioner as a compliment to his country.


Jean-François Pouliot: W'hen the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King) was Prime Minister. Canada was first in England, but, unfortunately, Australia has passed her because of the policies of this government. Canada now ranks second or third in London, and instead of holding competitions this government should endeavour to learn from Australia the reasons for her success. Perhaps this may be unnecessary as the government may have an opportunity of learning from the Liberal party. Two years ago, $100,000 was voted to the Department of Trade and Commerce for advertising to be carried on in England under the control of the High Commissioner for Canada. Instead of making his report to the Department of Trade and Commerce, that gentleman made it to the Department of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. The Department of Trade and Com

Empire Trade Agreements
merce asked for 8100,000 of Canadian money to be given to Mr. Howard Ferguson to be used for advertising; he used that money to give dinners and so forth, but he did not make a return to the minister who supplied him with it. This shows the little care this government has taken to follow parliamentary traditions.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Progress reported.

Hugh Guthrie: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the house I beg to move:
That when this house do adjourn this day, it stand adjourned until Tuesday next at three o'clock in the afternoon.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, July 2, 1935.