1934-02-07

Hon. R. J. MANION (Minister of Railways and Canals):: Mr. Speaker, the other day an order was passed by the house on the motion of the hon. member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) with regard to the Montreal agreement. I have received a reply to our request for a copy of the agreement, and I presume this is as good a time as any to deal with it. This is what Mr. Fullerton has to say:
I have your letter of February 2nd with respect to the desire of Mr. Pouliot for a copy of the Montreal agreement, with amendments.
The Montreal agreement is a form of contract between the Canadian National Railways, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen and has to do with the establishment of seniority districts and seniority rules for men in engine service.
This contract and amendments thereto is currently in effect, and it is not considered in the general interest to distribute copies of current contracts.
It there are any specific questions pertaining to the Montreal agreement or its amendments that Mr. Pouliot would like to ask, we will endeavour to answer them.
Questions

A number of hon. members have been asking with regard to this agreement, and perhaps this information will serve for everyone.


Mr. JEAN FRANCOIS POULIOT (Temis-couata):: If the house will permit me to do so I should like to thank the hon. member for the trouble he has taken in the matter, but if I do not know the terms of the contract how can I ask questions with regard to it?



QUESTIONS.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. COOTE:: What was the amount of the incomes of individuals assessed for the purposes of Income War Tax Act in the fiscal year 1931-32 in each of the following income groups:	(a) under
$2,000;	(b)	$2,000	to	$3,000;	(c)	$3,000	to$4,000;	(d)	$4,000	to	$5,000;	(e)	$5,000	to$6,000;	(f)	$6,000	to	$7,000;	(g)	$7,000	to$8,000;	(h)	$8,000	to	$9,000;	(i)	$9,000	to
1.
Fiscal year	Number of Number of
ending	dependent	disabilityMarch 31st	pensioners	pensioners1930	
19,644	56,9961931	
19,676	66,6691932	
19.308	75,8781933	
18,745	77,967
2.
Fiscal year	Actual cost Percentage
ending	of	cost of
March 31st administration administration
1930	
$1,848,307	3-4971931	
2,158,024	3-6071932	
2,569,721	4-0151933	
2,383,382	4-034


OTTAWA-POSTAL CONGRESS
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	What amount was allotted for the postal congress of Ottawa in 1933?
2.	What amount was spent for that purpose?
3.	In the event of the total amount allotted not having been entirely used, was the balance remitted to the treasury?
4.	If so, on what date?


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.
Grant	$25,000	00Post Office Department appropriations	
37,400	00
2.
Grant	$10,052	56Appropriations	
29,007	91$10,000;	(j)	$10,000 to $15,000;	(k)	$15,000	to$20,000;	(1)	$20,000 to $25,000;	(m)	$25,000	to$30,000;	(n)	$30,000 to $35,000	(o)	$35,000	to$40,000;	(p)	$40,000 to $45,000;	(q)	$45,000	to
$50,000 and over?


Mr. MATTHEWS:: (a) $62,154,736.20; (b) $45,696,003.81; (c) $73,336,840.84; (d) $73,904,744.07; (e) $58,151,503.96; (f) $44,795,794.85; (g) $33,523,798.32; (h)	$26,748,889.22;	(i)	$22,770,081.44;	(j)
$69,317,807.41; (k) $36,528,038.94; (1) $20,949,617.67; (m) $14,839,273.99; (n) $11,215,102.64; (o) $6,994,814.26; (p) $6,466,932.31; (q) $4,106,542.86, $48,606,734.66.


WAR PENSIONERS
Mr. HANSON (Skeena):: How- many war pensioners -were there in Canada in the years 1930-31-32-33, and w-hat is the amount paid for each year?
2.	What was the cost of administration of the Department of Pensions during the same years, giving each year separately?


Mr. MacLAREN:: Total number of persons in respect of whom pension
Total	is paid
76.640	202,842
86,345	230,744
95,186	258,793
96,712	264,S40
3.	Yes.
4.	Balance of grant $14,947.44 deposited to casual revenue 9th December, 1933.
Balance of appropriation $8,392.09 remains unexpended in Post Office Department appropriations.


POSTMASTER GENERAL-ITINERARY
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Have the employees of the Post Office Department prepared an itinerary of a tour in several countries for the Postmaster General, indicating and describing the principal places to visit in other countries than Egypt?
2.	If so, who prepared this work and how much time has been devoted to it by the person or persons who prepared it?
3.	Has this work been done during office hours ?


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.	No, but stenographers of department assisted in suitably amending printed itinerary furnished by travel agencies.
2.	Work prepared by the private secretary to the Postmaster General, but no record kept of time involved.
3.	Partly.	.
Annual
expenditure

Questions


CHAMPLAIN-ST. MARTHE PARISHES RELIEF WORKS
Mr. BAREBEAU:: 1.	Were the works on the provincial highway in the limits of Champlain and St. Marthe parishes carried on during the year 1933, according to the Gordon-Francoeur agreement?
2.	If so, what amount was set aside for this purpose?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	No works have been approved under The Relief Act, 1933, for provincial highways in the limits of Champlain and St. Marthe parishes. It would appear that no proposal has been received from the provincial authorities in this regard.
2.	See reply to No. 1.


LAVIOLETTE COUNTY RELIEF WORKS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. BiARIBEAU:
1.	Did the provincial government of Quebec suggest to the federal government the carrying on of certain works to help the unemployed in the county of Laviolette (provincial division), during the year 1933-34, according to the Gordon-Francoeur understanding?
2.	If so, what amount was allowed for each item?
Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Yes.
2.
Schedule No. 11
Highway No. 19-St. Tite La Tuque section Laviolette county: relocation, widening, grading, blasting, construction of culverts and gravelling. By day labour. To remedy unemployment at La Tuque and Grand'Mere, also along that section of the highway. (See also 11A, List No. 53):
Total estimated cost, $50,000; man-days work provided by project, 25,000; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man-day of work; Dominion proportion, $12,500.
Schedule No. 47
St. George Village, Laviolette County, Waterworks and sidewalks:
Total estimated cost, $5,500; total labour cost, $3,000; basis of contribution, 33J per cent; Dominion proportion, $1,000.
Schedule No. 59
Riviere La Bostonnais-Road works between Mailhiot and Bourgeois townships, Laviolette county, for the needy unemployed at La Bostonnais river and surrounding district. Undertaking to be carried out by the Department of Colonization. (See also 59A, List No. 64):
Total estimated cost, $4,000; man-days work provided by project, 1,688; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man-day of work; Dominion proportion, $844.
Schedule No. 83
Highway No. 19-Almaville, county of St. Maurice and Laviolette. Construction of a new hill including purchase of land and all works preliminary to the laying of a permanent pavement. By day labour. To remedy unemployment at Shawinigan Falls and Almaville :
Total estimated cost, $25,000; man-days work provided by project, 10,000; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man-day of work; Dominion proportion, $5,000.
Schedule No. 11A
Laviolette county-Highway No. 19-St. Tite La Tuque section: relocation, widening, grading, blasting, construction of culverts, gravelling and other improvements. Work camps operated by the roads department. By day labour. To remedy unemployment at La Tuque and Grand'Mere, also along that section of the highway. (Above in addition to schedule No. 11 approved by P.C. 2128 dated October 14, 1933, for a Dominion contribution not to exceed $12,500):
Total estimated cost, $40,000; man-days work provided by project, 20,000; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man-day; Dominion proportion, $10,000.
Schedule No. 59A
County of Laviolette-Road works through Mailhiot and Bourgeois townships. For the needy unemployed at La Bostonnais river and surrounding district. Undertaking to be carried out by the Department of Colonization. (59A in addition to schedule 59 approved by P.C. 2103 dated October 10, 1933. Dominion contribution not to exceed 8844):
Total estimated cost, $3,000; total estimated labour cost, $2,500; man-days work provided by project, 1,562; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man-day; Dominion proportion, $781.


CHAMPLAIN COUNTY RELIEF WORKS
Mr. BARIBEAU:: 1.	Has the provincial government of Quebec suggested to the federal government, the carrying out of certain works to aid unemployment in the county of Champlain (provincial division), during the year 1933-34, according to the Gordon-11 rancoeur understanding?
2.	If so, what amount has been allowed for each item?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	See list attached.	,
Questions

Schedule No. 24
Road between St-Jacqu-es-des-Piles and St. Roch-de-Mekinak, Champlain county. Widening, grading construction of culverts, gravelling. By day labour. To remedy unemployment in Grand'Mere:
Total estimated cost, $20,000; man-days work provided by project, 10,000; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man day of work; Dominion proportion, $5,000:
Schedule No. 32
La Tuque Roberval highway-Exploration and preliminary work such as clearing, construction of culverts and grading, and gravelling works. By day labour. To remedy unemployment at La Tuque and Roberval:.
Total estimated cost, $25,000; man-days work provided by project, 12,500; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man day of work; Dominion proportion, $6,250:
Schedule No. 346
Construction of a new and direct highway between Shawinigan and Grand'Mere, counties of Champlain and St. Maurice. To remedy unemployment at Shawinigan Falls, Grand' Mere and district. By contract:
Total estimated cost, 875,000; total estimated labour cost, $55,000; man-days work provided, 34,000; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man-day; Dominion proportion, $17,000:
Schedule No. 32a
La Tuque-Roberval highway-clearing, blasting, construction of culverts, widening, grading and other improvements between La Tuque and La Croche. By day labour-to remedy unemployment at La Tuque and surrounding district:
Total estimated cost, $5,000; total estimated labour cost, $4,000; man-days work provided by project, 2,500; basis of contribution, $0.50 per man day; Dominion proportion, $1,250:
(Above in addition to Schedule 32 approved by P.C. 1818 dated September 7, 1933, Dominion contribution not to exceed $6,250.


BERTHIER-M AS KINONGE RELIEF WORKS
Mr. BARRETTE:: 1.	Has the provincial government of Quebec suggested to the federal government the carrying out of certain works to help the unemployed in the county of Berthier-Maskinonge, during the years 1933-34, according to the Gordon-h'rancoeur understanding?
2.	If so, in what district and what amount has been expended?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Works have been approved for the relief of unemployment in the county of Berthier,

as per list attached. The only account received from the province in this regard is one applying to schedule No. 10 and amounting to $22 Dominion proportion. Payment of this account will be made in due course.
Schedule No. 10
St. Donat St. Michel-des-Saints highway, county of Berthier. Clearing, grading blasting, construction of culverts and bridges, gravelling. By contract (unit prices). To remedy unemployment at St. Michel-des-Saints and St. Zenon:
Total estimated cost, $20,000; total estimated labour cost, $16,000; man-days work provided by project, 10,000; basis of contribution, S0.50 per man-day; Dominion proportion, $5,000:
Schedule No. 312
St. Gabriel de Brandon village, Berthier county-Cleaning of beach, near the Canada Power's mill:
Total estimated cost, $3,000 (No material); total estimated labour cost, $3,000; basis of contribution, 33i per cent; Dominion proportion, $1,000.


POSTMASTER GENERAL-SECRETARIES
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	How many secretaries and assistant secretaries has the Postmaster General?
2.	What are their names, and where is each one of them at the present time?


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.	One.
2.	Maurice Grondin, Ottawa.


MR. JEAN BRTJCHESI
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Does Mr. Jean Bruchesi accompany the Postmaster General in an official capacity to Egypt?
2.	If so: (a) in what capacity and what are his powers; (b) has he passed the Civil Service Commission examinations; (c) if not, on whose recommendation, by whom, how and when was he appointed; (d) will he remain at Cairo during the entire duration of the postal congress; (e) if so, will he return directly from Cairo to Canada; (f) what is his salary; (g) is he a temporary or permanent employee?


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) As attache to act as secretary to the Canadian delegation and to the Postmaster General; (b) no: (c) Postmaster General, under the authority of orders in council dated 7th September and 28th November, 1933; (d) no information; (e) no information; (f) no salary, but an allowance of $20 per
Questions
diem for living expenses, exclusive of telephone, telegraph and transportation charges during the time he is absent from Canada, but not to include days spent on shipboard; (g) no-t an employee.


WORLD ECONOMIC CONFERENCE
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	How many countries were officially represented at the world's conference in London in 4933?
2.	What countries were so represented.'


Mr. BENNETT:: 1.	Sixty-four.
2.	Afghanistan, Union of South Africa, Albania, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Argentine Republic, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Cuba, Danzig, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Ecuador, Spain, Estonia, United States of America, Abyssinia, Finland, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Hungary, India, Iraq, Irish Free State, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liberia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Mexico, Nicaragua, Norway, New Zealand, Paraguay, Netherlands, Peru, Persia, Poland, Portugal, Roumamia, Salvador, Siam, Sweden, Switzerland, Czechoslovakia, Turkey, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Uruguay, Venezuela, Yugoslavia.


UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF-NEW BRUNSWICK
Mr. VENIOT:: What amount chargeable to unemployment was due the province of New Brunswick on October 31, 1933?


Mr. GORDON:: $1,810.50 in respect of unemployment relief.


* CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY-ADVANCES
Mr. POWER:: To what extent was the Canadian Pacific railway indebted to the Bank of Montreal for loans or advances made by the said bank to the company at the time:	(a) when the
Canadian Pacific Railway Company requested the government to guarantee a loan of sixty million dollars; (b) at the time of the passing of the order in conncil which actually guaranteed the said loan?


Mr. BENNETT:: This is a matter ovef which we have [DOT] no jurisdiction; it is between the railway company and the bank. We could write the railway company or the bank for the information, but they may not supply it to us, and it does not come within our jurisdiction.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: The hon. member for
Quebec South (Mr. Power) is not here, so
perhaps my right hon. friend would allow the question to stand.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Very well.
Question stands.


* INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFFICE
Mr. MITCHELL:: 1.	Is it the intention of the government to have a full representation of government, employers and workers delegates at the forthcoming annual conference of international labour office which meets in Geneva in May?
2.	If so, will these delegates be provided with one or more advisors, so as to enable them to adequately participate in the work of the conference and its committees?


George Gordon: It is the well established practice, Mr. Speaker, that the intentions of the government in matters of this kind are not disclosed until the proper time. I assume the hon. member has reference to the article in the treaty of Versailles relating to the international labour office. Therefore I would ask that this question be dropped from the order paper.
Question dropped.


JOHN I. MCFARLAND
Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	What salary, expenses, or other emolument does John I. McFarland receive for his stabilizing services on the Winnipeg grain market ?
2.	How large a staff does he usually employ?
3.	What is the total cost per annum in rent, salaries and other expenses, for maintaining his office ?
4.	Under what department of the government, and from what vote, are such expenses paid?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I indicated to the hon. gentleman yesterday that Mr. McFarland is not on the payroll of the Dominion of Canada, and no office is maintained by this government over which he has control.


PENSIONS COMMISSION-PERSONNEL AND SALARIES
Mr. REID:: 1.	What are the names of the persons appointed to the Canadian pensions commission ?
2.	What was the previous occupation of each such person, and what salary is being paid to each?
Mr. MaoLAREN:
Name-Previous occupation-Salary being paid
Lt. Col. J. T. C. Thompson, barrister, $7,000; Dr. James F. Ellis, physician, $6,000; Dr. D. W. Gray, physician, $6,000; Dr. R. J.

Questions
Kee, physician, $6,000; Lt. Gen. Sir R. E. W. Turner, merchant, $6,000; Mr. H. A. L. Conn, barrister, $6,000; Dr. J. A. L. Robert, physician, $6,000; Mr. Stephen Jones, agent, $6,000.



SALISBURY, N.B., MAIL CONTRACT

Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	When did mail contract for R.K. .No. 1, Salisbury, New Brunswick, expire?
2.	Has a new contract been awarded; if so, to whom?
3.	Were tenders called for, what persons tendered, and what was the amount of each tender?
_ 4. Was contract awarded to lowest tender; if not, why?
5.	Is the department aware of any serious complaints having been made during recent months against the present contractor; if so. what were the complaints?


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.	September 30, 1935.
2.	Yes, to W. G. Campbell.
3.	Yes, W. G. Campbell, $544; Manley 0. Blenis, $546; Lyman Eagles, $550; Noble S. Steeves, $550; George Lawrence, $550; Coleman C. Spence, $597; Henry MacDonald, $600; Frank 0. Sentell, $650.
4.	Yes.
5.	No.


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.
Addressed to:
Any post office within 20 miles including
plaice of mailing	
Any post office beyond 20 miles, but
within the province of mailing	
Any post office in adjoining province.. .. Any post office in second adjoining
province	
Any post office in third adjoining province. Any poet office beyond third adjoining province	
Note.-The three provinces of Nova Scotia, are considered as one zone.



BONUS ON VANCOUVER ISLAND COAL

Mr. NEILL:: What was the bonus paid or accruing due for tonnage on Vancouver island coal under



RIVER GLADE, N.B., POSTMASTER

Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Was the postmaster at River Glade, New Brunswick, dismissed?
2.	If so, was an investigation held, and by whom ?
3.	Was such investigation a public or private one, and were orders issued by the department that such an investigation should be private?
4.	Who was the investigator, and how much was he paid for his services?
5.	On whose recommendation was the present postmaster appointed ?
6.	Does this appointment come under the Civil Service Commission?


Mr. DUPRE (for Mr. Sauve):: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Yes; (b) Commissioner Daniel Mullin.
3.	(a) No definite information; (b) No.
4.	(a) Daniel Mullin, barrister of Saint John; (b) $70.75.
5.	Dr. O. B. Price, M.P.
6.	No.



PARCEL POSTAGE RATES

Mr. ROBERGE:: What is the present rate per pound for the transportation by mail of parcels of the following weights: 1 pound, 5 pounds, 10 pounds 14 pounds?
1 lib.	5 lbs.	10 lbs.	14 lbs$0.05	$0.10	$0.20	$0.250.10	0.30	0.55	0.550.10	0.38	0.73	0.750.12	0.48	0.93	1.150.12	0.58	1.13	1.350.12	0.60	1.20	1.50
New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island
P.C. 2699 during the calendar year 1933, showing separately the amount of bunker coal and export coal each month, and the amount paid for eadh?

Motions jor Papers


George Gordon: Gross tons	Amount
January	. 3,665	S 1,832 50February. .. .	. 6,167	3,083 50March	. 5,859	2,929 50April	. 2,898	1,449 00May	. 5.844	2,922 00June	. 7,459	3,729 50July	. 4,567	2,283 50August	. 2,870	1,435 00September.. .	. 7,657	3,828 50October. .. .	. 2,642	1,321 00November.. .	. 4.012	2,006 00December... .	. 264	132 0053,904	$26,952 00All of the above	was bunker	coal. No coal
shown as exported during 1933.



IMMIGRATION STATISTICS

Mr. DUGUAY:: 1.	From 1922 to 1930 how many immigrants entered this country?
2.	How much money have they cost the country?
3.	How many are left at the present time?
4.	How many were deported, and what was the cost?
5.	How many Canadians emigrated during the period from 1922 to 1930?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.
Fiscal year	
1921-22			 82,324
1922-23			 67.446
1923-24			 145,250
1924-25			 111,362
1925-26			 96.064
1926-27			 143.989
1927-28			 151,600
1928-29			 167.723
1929-30			 163,288
3.	What were the duties, dumping penalty or other taxation, imposed per pound each month of the above periods?


Mr. CAHAN:: Return tabled herewith.



NEW WESTMINSTER HARBOUR COMMISSION

Mr. REID:: 1.	What lawyer or lawyers were engaged by the New Westminster harbour commissioners during the year 1933?
2.	What were the various amounts paid for law services by the New' Westminster harbour commissioners during the year 1933, and to whom were the various sums paid?
3.	For what special service were these lawyers engaged?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: I think this question should stand as an order for return, and I shall be glad to table any information I may receive from the commission.



POST OFFICE OEPARTMENT-CONTRACTS

Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Since August 1, 1930, has the Post Office Department awarded contracts without first catling for tenders?
2.	If so, what are the names and addresses of the contractors?
3.	What is the date and the amount of each contract ?
4.	For what purpose was each contract awarded?



OOMINION GOVERNMENT-RENTALS

Mr. MUNN:: 1.	What amounts were paid by the Dominion government in each of the years 1929, 1930, 1931, 1932 and 1933, for rentals, office space, storage, and other purposes, in the city of Vancouver. British Columbia?
2.	To whom was this money paid, w'here is each property located, and for what purpose was eacli such property used?



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


[Stage Direction]
Total	 1,129,046	Mr- VAlLLANCE:
_______ For a return in tabulated form showing the
_	.	amounts expended monthly for material and
2 to 5. The information is not available. supplies tor unemployment relief in Prince
Albert national park, from the inception of the
QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR ^ t	in tabulated form showing the
RETURNS	amount expended per month on unemployment
relief in Prince Albert national park, together BUTTER IMPORTS	with the number of men employed during each
,,	month, from the inception of the camps to
Mr. BLAIR:: date.
1. What were the quantities of butter For a copy of pay lists showing the moneys exported to Canada during years 1930, 1931, expended in wages or salaries to foremen, 1932 and 1933, by:	(a) New Zealand; (b) superintendents, inspectors and subforemen, in
Australia?	connection with unemployment relief in Prince
2.	What were the prices of the butter each Albert national park. Such lists to indicate
month during the above-mentioned years at the amounts paid monthly from the time the camps Canadian ports of entry?	were established in the said park to date.
Motions for Papers

For a copy of order in council, if any, dealing with unemployment relief of permanent park residents in .Prince Albert national park.
For a copy of order in council F.G. 2358,
1932,	and P.0. 52, 1933, and any other orders in council, in connection with unemployment relief of single homeless men in Prince Albert national park.



PENSIONS OF DEPENDENTS

Mr. RALSTON:: 1.	A statement giving the following particulars respecting reviews made during 1933 of dependents' pensions, separating the information as respects reviews made, from January 1,
1933,	to September 30, 1933, and from October 1, 1933, to December 31, 1933, showing: (a) the number of files reviewed; (b) at whose instance reviewed, i.e., board of Pension Commissioners or Canadian Pensions Commission, Auditor General, Department of Pensions and National Health; (c) number of pensions reduced; (d) total yearly amount of reduction; (e) number of pensions cancelled; (f) total yearly amount of cancelled pensions (g) number of cases in which suspension or partial suspensions, withdrawal or reduction, has been made in order to recover an alleged overpayment of pension on the ground of alleged invalidity of marriage or absence of proof of marriage; (h) total yearly amount of such suspensions or partial suspension, withdrawals or reductions.
2.	A statement giving similar information regarding disability pensions.
3.	The number of eases in each class in which pensioner was given the opportunity to be heard in respect of such suspensions or partial suspensions, withdrawals or reductions.
4.	The above information to exclude suspensions or reductions to repay previous lump sum payments or gratuities.



PENSION COMMISSION

Peter John Veniot: For a copy of all papers, documents, correspondence, resolutions or protests emanating from any ex-soldiers association and addressed to any member of the government, in connection with the appointment of members of the Canadian pension commission.



RIVER GLADE, N.B., POSTMASTER

Peter John Veniot: For a copy of all correspondence, evidence, and report of investigator, relating to the dismissal of the postmaster at .River Glade, New Brunswick, and appointment of present incumbent.



SALISBURY, N.B., MAIL CONTRACTS

Peter John Veniot: For a copy of all correspondence, reports and calls for tenders, in connection with the mail contract for delivery of mails on route R.R. No. 1, Salisbury, New Brunswick.
For a copy of contract, correspondence and all reports relating to the awarding of a contract, which recently expired, for the delivery of mails on route R.R. No. 2, Salisbury, New Brunswick, and all correspondence relating to the award of a new contract.
[Mr. Vallance.l


Peter John Veniot: Mr. Speaker, before asking the house to adopt these two motions I should like to ask your permission to let them stand.


Mr. SPEAKER:: Motions Nos. 8 and 9 on the order paper will stand.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF


George Gibson Coote: That, in the opinion of this house, in view of the large number of unemployed, and with the necessity of increasing the purchasing power of the people, it is expedient that the government give immediate consideration to the inauguration of a large scale program of public works, to be financed by a direct issue of noninterest bearing dominion notes.
He said: It is almost unnecessary to state at the outset of my remarks that the reason for introducing this resolution is found in the deplorable conditions existing in Canada, particularly with regard to the employment situation. It is unfortunate that we have no accurate statistics as to the number of people unemployed, but it is safe to say that there are at least over half a million of them. These people are producing nothing; they are living on the taxpayers and consuming real wealth. But that is not the worst of it; they are losing their morale and their ambition. There are thousands of young people who have completed their schooling and are ready for work. During the last three years they have graduated from the various schools and universities, but in that time have been unable to get a worth-while job with an income. I believe that is one of the greatest tragedies of the present situation. Complementary to that, thousands of farmers and merchants in Canada are facing bankruptcy through lack of business. Many farmers are remaining on their farms only through the grace of their creditors or because of protective legislation passed by the provinces.
Our two great problems to-day are first, to give an income to our farmers, and second, to give employment with incomes to those now unemployed.
In considering any remedy which might be brought forward at this time we must of course have in mind its effect upon the whole problem, not merely upon particular sections of the problem. The action which I am suggesting to-day constitutes, I believe, the best way of dealing with the unemployment problem and, incidentally, it will help to improve general conditions in Canada, and the whole national situation. I believe many recovery methods will have to be tried out

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Coote
before Canada finally emerges from the depression, and before we have recovered anything like the degree of prosperity enjoyed in 1929 and the years immediately preceding.
I believe one of the first steps to be taken should be that of instituting a program of public works so as to give direct employment to and increase the purchasing power of the people. Speaking to the board of trade of Toronto on Monday, the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) is reported to have said, "We cannot offer you anything spectacular, nothing but thrift and hard work." That is perhaps a poor enough outlook, but it would not be so bad if we were in a position to offer work to our unemployed. How can people work hard if there is no work to do? Many of our Canadian people have worn the soles off their shoes looking for it; they want to work. The great majority of the unemployed in Canada want work; let us give them that chance. Unemployment is one of the greatest of our present problems-'
I am of course referring to unemployment without money. One of my returned friends said to me a year ago, "Unemployment with money is leisure, but unemployment without money is hell." I do not need to emphasize the terrible condition of mind of the men who for years have looked for work but without success. The policy of unemployment relief as it has been carried out in Canada is of course to be commended, if we cannot do anything better, but it is really striking at the very heart of the nation. Our greatest asset is our people. I wonder what is in the minds of the people who sing so lustily, "0 Canada, we stand on guard for thee." Surely the only thing we can have in our minds when we sing, "We stand on guard for thee," is the ten millions of people who make up this nation. No other asset of this country is so worthy of considering as the people themselves. The future of Canada depends upon its people and upon future generations. We are destroying the morale and the ambition of our people so long as we tell them that they really ought to work, that the way out will be found through thrift and hard work, and yet keep them unemployed. The state for its own protection should see that every man has a chance to work at fair wages; we ought to see, and we can see if we have the will to do it, that there is real work provided for real men to do.
J. A. Hobson in Poverty and Plenty says:
The right of the worker to demand work on reasonable terms and the correlative obligation of the organized community to provide it, are
basic conditions of a civilized government. He has a right to demand work: it (the state) has an obligation to supply it.
Coming to one of our own economists in Canada, Professor Stephen Leacock, in The Unsolved Riddle of Social Justice he says: The government of every country ought to supply work and pay for the unemployed. . . . Society owes to every citizen the opportunity of a livelihood. . . . Work must either be found, or must be provided by the state itself.
I agree with Mr. Leacock. I think that is sound philosophy and sound economic doctrine.
It is generally supposed that private industry should and will provide employment, but after three years of waiting we know that it will not furnish that employment, that it is unable to do so. There is not sufficient purchasing power in the hands of the consumers to take up the products of industry, and so industry languishes and employment dies. There is no place to-day for capital investment which offers a return of interest and dividends. People will not invest in new industries until it is apparent that sufficient purchasing power rests in the hands of the people to take up the new production. We should all by now realize that the confidence of the people has been hit to the extent that private industry will not furnish the purchasing power and will not furnish employment. Even those who still have money have lost confidence and are afraid to spend the purchasing power which they hold. As a result of this refusal to spend, unemployment is increased, and when this condition occurs, as has been very well said by John Maynard Keynes, organized society must step into the breach and distribute purchasing power. It must, in other words, start on a spending program. Organized society, of course, means the government, and I think the time has arrived,-indeed it arrived long ago,-that as an organized society we can no longer hold back from the inauguration of a spending campaign,-or, in other words, the putting of purchasing power into circulation.
This principle is very well realized in the United States, where the new recovery plans are now under way, and where the government under the "New Deal" has started a real spending program. I read in a United States paper recently that the plans under contemplation in that country provide for the spending of practically $13,000,000,000, which is more than half the total amount spent by the United States in the prosecution of the great war from the time of its entry into the conflict until June 1921. In that period they spent for war purposes $25,749,000,000, and theii
34S

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Coote
present plans contemplate the expenditure of more than half that sum to combat the depression. In other words, the United States is engaged in a war to end poverty and unemployment. They have already allocated
S3,500,000,000 for expenditure under the public works administration.
The United States policy is described by their president as one of work instead of doles. The president is reported as using these words:
This program will end the "dole" with all the disintegrating effects it has on the unemployed, and replace it with "made" work at honest wages.
That is a program which Canada might very well imitate. For three years we have followed the United States in a policy of financial deflation and consequent depression, and surely now that the United States has reversed its policy and is attempting to climb up out of the hole, Canada might at least keep pace with our great neighbour to the south.
I saw in a recent press dispatch from Washington lhat five million men had been reemployed by agencies financed with funds provided through the public works administration. That is just an indication, Mr. Speaker, of what could be done in Canada if a vigorous policy of public works construction was undertaken and financed by the federal government. I believe that such a program of public works would be the best method of getting our people back to work.
Mr. John Maynard Keynes, who is listed by Professor Irving Fisher as one of the men in the world who does know something, if not all, about money, stated three years ago: For every man given employment direct on a program of public works two other men will find employment as a result. Large numbers of men will secure employment in making the materials which will be used in the construction of these works, and others will find employment in making consumers' goods which the newly employed men will want to purchase with the wages which they receive.
The falling off in the construction industry appears to be responsible for much of the unemployment that now exists. In a statement presented last fall to the royal commission on banking by the National Construction Council of Canada, it is pointed out that the estimated volume of construction work in Canada for 1933 was only $66,000,000, compared with an average of $430,000,000 for the years from 1925 to 1930 inclusive. That is, the construction industry itself put out new purchasing power to the extent of $66,000,000 in 1933 as compared with an average of $430,000,000 for the years I have mentioned.

The value of construction in 1933 was estimated at less than 12 per cent of the 1929 figure. The industry employed at its peak in 1929, 300,000 direct workers. Those figures would indicate that the unemployed due to the falling off in construction in Canada probably number more than 250,000 people. The submission made by this association to the banking commission goes on to say that, after taking into account those employed indirectly in the industry:
It is obvious that the lack of work in the construction industry is responsible in a very large measure for the numbers of unemployed in the country. It is also correct to state that if the construction industry were operating at the 1929 rate, 500,000 people would be back in employment to-day who are at present unemployed.
That is a striking figure, Mr. Speaker, but I believe it can be substantiated. It says 500,000 people would be back in employment. The submission goes on:
In other words, about half of the unemployment problem in this country can be laid at the door of this particular industry. The construction industry, beyond all other industries, is unique in its ability to provide great diversity of employment. The ramifications of this industry are so far-reaching that it is difficult to find any major industry in the country not seriously affected by its prosperity or otherwise. It follows that a dollar spent in the construction industry is diffused through the whole fabric of industry. JSo particular group and no particular locality is affected more than any other group or locality. A bridge on the west coast will provide work for steel makers in Sydney. An office building in Toronto provides work for the lumberman in British Columbia. To this -aspect should be coupled a second significant factor, that for every dollar spent in this industry approximately 82 cents goes towards labour. In other words, it goes into the pay envelopes of the workers in this country whether they be on the job or whether they be in the factory working on materials and supplies.
Speaking in this house a week ago the Prime Minister referred to the large increase which had occurred this year in the exportation of lumber from British Columbia. I thought it would be interesting to find out how much lumber was being consumed in Canada. I was not able to secure the figures for 1933, but I have them for 1929, 1930, 1931 and 1932. Deducting the exports from the production we find that in 1929 there was an apparent consumption of lumber in Canada amounting to 3,079,474 thousand board feet; in 1930, it amounted to 2,500,904 thousand board feet; in 1931, to 1,560,820 thousand board feet, and in 1932, it had fallen to 1,135,717 thousand board feet. The consumption had fallen from 3,000,000 thousand board feet in 1929 to a little over 1,000,000

Unemployment Reliej-Mr. Coote
in 1932. If we were to revive the building industry in Canada we would increase the consumption of lumber, provide more employment in the bush, more employment in the mills and more traffic for our railways.
From the figures I have given it would appear that the inauguration of a program of public works would be one of the best means of providing employment for those who are now out of work. The submission of the National Construction Council, to which I have referred, states that a survey made by the manufacturers of vitrified tile in Canada showed that 232 municipalities with a population of over 1,000 were in need of sewage systems. I do not think there is a city in Canada to-day in which a program of public works could not be put into operation if funds were provided. I understand that the city of Lethbridge has stated that if the government will furnish them with $500,000 free of interest for ten years they will engage upon a construction program and assume all responsibility for unemployment relief, thus relieving the federal and provincial governments of responsibility in that regard.
We know that the federal government has a large program of public works under consideration, and it ought to be put into operation. I know the minister has received many applications for public works and I am sure that almost every province would be glad to embark on a program of public works if financing could be arranged. I was told by the minister of public works of one of our provinces that he would like to have $5,000,000 for a program of bridge building alone. He stated that these bridges were all needed and that value would be obtained from the money so spent. I do not intend to go over the whole list of useful public works, but I shall give just a few.
Some people think that we have too many highways, but according to the census of 1931 there are 150,000 farms in Canada located on unimproved dirt roads. There is a great need for culverts and bridges, for safe railway crossings, technical schools, hospitals, power plants, power distribution lines, slum clearance work, and housing projects, both urban and rural. Our aim should be a home for every family, houses instead of slums, and homes instead of shacks. Reforestation projects should be undertaken, and there is a need for more parks. One of the latest plans under the new deal in the United States is to provide money for the remodelling of old-fashioned homes. The following is one paragraph which appeared in the United States [DOT]News dealing with this new plan:
President Roosevelt again is turning his attention to the home owner. This time he thinks that the man with a home may help along the recovery program by providing work for the laggard construction industry.
To give him a real incentive, the President is prepared to ask Congress to appropriate $250,000,000 that can be loaned at low interest rates for home rebuilding and home repair. If this fund is eagerly used by the owners of the country's 25,000,000 dwellings, then it can be expanded to open a vast new field for government credit.
There is room in Canada for a similar program. It may be urged that we cannot afford such a program in Canada. Let us see, then, what is needed for a program of public works such as I have suggested. First of all, we need men, or labour; next, we need machines and equipment, and, lastly, we need materials. If we go over the whole list of such works we find that there are plenty of men available; there are architects, civil engineers, electrical engineers, artisans and mechanics in every trade. The same is true with regard to materials and machinery of all kinds. For highway construction we have ample supplies of gravel and rock; we have sand and cement; we have scrapers; we have horses and trucks for hauling. For bridges, we have the steel and lumber. For buildings of all kinds, we have plenty of brick, sand, stone, cement, lumber and hardware; in fact we have everything except glass, and we could trade wheat with Belgium for that commodity. The same thing is true of all the other works which I have suggested. Practically all the transportation facilities, materials and equipment that are necessary are available in Canada, so that any such works which are undertaken can be carried out with the use of our own natural resources and our own men. Why not therefore, proceed with the work?
Professor Henry Clay, a very prominent economist in England, says:
If we leave money and credit out of account, there is obviously no theoretical impossibility of employing men who at present are kept doing nothing, on plant which is also idle, at any useful work within their capacity.
I agree absolutely with Professor Clay. We have all the men, the machines and the materials necessary, it is only a matter of organization to bring them together to get the work done. But in organizing, we use money to measure the value of labour, of machines and of material. Whether we like it or not, we cannot leave money out of account. Fortunately in this case, under our constitution the Dominion government has control of currency and coinage, banking and the issue of paper money, as well as the raising of money by any mode or system of taxation and the

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Coote
borrowing of money on the public credit. As we are at present taxed to death, I want to rule out taxation as a method of raising money. In addition to having complete power with regard to the creation and control of money, the dominion has control of trade and commerce, interest, legal tender, immigration, tariffs, transportation, and so forth,- in short, over all the vital economic policies which determine whether or not the people of the country shall have employment.
As I have said before on many occasions, in my humble opinion the Dominion government should assume at least the major share of the responsibility for unemployment. This is just another reason why they should engage in a program of public works to give employment to the people.. The question of money seems to be the sticker. Mr. J. S. Lennox, in his very interesting book entitled The Cause and Cure of Unemployment, which I am sure many hon. members have read, proposes that public works should be used as a basis for the issue of currency, that public works should be treated as assets and not as liabilities. When we learn to do that we will not have any trouble in financing public works. Whether or not we should go as far as Mr. Lennox suggests, the fact remains that the construction of public buildings to be financed by the issue of dominion notes has been suggested by hon. members in every section of the house. I know that many hon. members will agree that'Canada can well afford to finance such a program by the issue of notes.
When I drafted this resolution last year, Canada had no central bank. Having moved, in 1931, a resolution asking for the establishment of a nationally-owned central bank, and having received no support from any quarter of the house except this corner, I did not expect that this year we would have one. Had I known a central bank was to be set up I might have suggested that the money be raised by borrowing from that bank on treasury notes of the Dominion of Canada. That has been done to quite an extent in Australia through the commonwealth bank, and it may be done here yet if we get a central bank-that is, if it is the proper kind of bank. The amount of dominion notes outstanding now is about $150,000,000 less than in 1920, so I am certain that we could with both safety and advantage issue $150,000,000 or $200,000,000 in dominion notes for this purpose. If this were more than was necessary for circulation, the notes would find their way into the vaults of the 
chartered banks and strengthen their cash reserves. They would also serve as a basis for the further extension of credit by the banks when the demand for such was created by improvement in business conditions.
I have one other suggestion to make if neither of these proposals is satisfactory to the government. The world conference, we are told, agreed that a 25 per cent gold coverage would be sufficient for our note issue. The government could buy gold produced in Canada to the extent of $100,000,000, or to whatever amount they thought best, and issue, on that $100,000,000, $400,000,000 of notes for financing such a program as I have suggested. Even if the $100,000,000 were borrowed at 4 per cent, this would be equivalent to a rate of 1 per cent on the amount of notes issued, which could easily be carried by the revenue received on business resulting from the circulation of the $400,000,000.
I have one further suggestion. As the primary purpose of this program would be to create employment, it seems to me that it would be wise to pay for at least part of the program with what is called stamped scrip money, a special issue of notes. Such scrip or notes would require to have placed upon them at stated intervals, preferably monthly or twice a month, stamps equal to 1 per cent of the face value of the note. I am suggesting 1 per cent, but it might be one-half or 2 per cent. The hoarding or saving of money and the slowing-down of the velocity of circulation have depressed business at least as much as if not more than the contraction in the volume of money in circulation. While present money is hoarded or lying idle in banks, this stamped scrip money would provide a substitute which would circulate three or four times as fast as ordinary money. The great advantage of stamped scrip money is its rapidity of circulation. It would not be inflation; it would put no strain on our gold reserves. If it circulates three times as fast as money, $1 worth of scrip will do as much work as $3 worth of orthodox money in exchanging goods and providing employment. The stamps required to keep it current would provide funds to retire the- notes over a period of years.
Professor Irving Fisher, whom the Minister of Finance (Mr. Rhodes) quoted a few days ago as naming the men in the world who knew something about money, has given his blessing to stamped scrip money. In 1932 he wrote an article entitled "What Can Congress Do," and perhaps I might quote two or three sentences from that article, in which he discusses measures that might be adopted to break the depression.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Coote
He says:
There is, in particular, one measure little known as yet, but which, I believe, is destined soon to command nationwide attention, which might bring us substantially out of the depression if properly applied, in a few weeks. This is "stamped scrip." ... Stamped scrip will give the consumer the buying power needed to start up operations from the consumer end. . . . One of the chief advantages of the stamped scrip plan, ... is the speeding up of circulation. Any holder of the scrip naturally wants to pass it on before the next_ stamp date arrives. No one wants to keep it long, lhe stamp operates as a stamp tax on hoarding. . . . We ought, not to wait four years. We ought not to wait even till the new congress assembles in March. Why should not the "lame duck" congress cover itself with glory by pulling U3 out of the depression in a few weeks by priming the pump through consumer demand and so let loose the waiting millions of bank credit';. . . But just now, as a capstone of what has already been done, we need what stamped scrip can give us and give us faster than any other means in sight.
I suggest to the government that they might cover themselves with glory before this term of parliament is over by putting stamped scrip money into circulation to prime the pump, as Professor Fisher says, and break this depression.


Mr. GEARY:: What has been the experience of other countries with stamped scrip money?


George Gibson Coote: I do not know of any country that has tried it, but I know of quite a few municipalities that have done so, and if I had time I could give the hon. gentleman several very good illustrations of the success it has met with.


George Reginald Geary: I will give my hon. friend a great many illustrations.


George Gibson Coote: Unemployment .Relief-Mr. Hackett
we should undertake this work without further delay and I hope the house and the government will give this resolution their most favourable consideration.
Mr. JOHN T. HACKETT (Stanstead): Mr. Speaker, I am neither a sceptic nor a scoffer. I enjoyed listening to the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote), because he was attempting to deal in his way with a very great problem. He finds that unemployment is a canker in the body politic and he would apply to it as a remedy a vast program of public works. If I have understood the source of many of the difficulties under which Canada is labouring at the moment, it is that the Canadian people, the people of the provinces, cities and municipalities have overindulged in public works. It is because they have paid out money which they are unable to repay to-day and because they have incurred liabilities, the interest upon which they find onerous in the extreme, that we are in distress at this time. The hon. gentleman, knowing well the poison which has brought about our illness, suggests an additional dose as a means of regaining health.
I agree with him that unemployment is a very serious problem, but I would suggest to him that a remedy other than the one which he has advocated, a remedy which is perhaps more simple and elemental, must be applied to the malady. I think we can all agree that disequilibrium in our population is the great cause of want and unemployment. It is true that farming is not a very prosperous undertaking to-day, yet there is no unemployment on the farm and in so far as eastern Canada is concerned, where farming is carried on more as an avocation than as a vast business, there is no lack of food, fuel or raiment, which, after all, are the things essential to livelihood.
In the city of Montreal in December, the last month for which figures are available, 202,895 people were receiving direct relief from governmental authorities and in April, 1933, 280,096 were receiving sustenance from the same source. In April 34-24 per cent of the population was receiving direct relief, while in December last only 24-79 was receiving direct relief. These figures should be considered critically because they show a decrease in unemployment despite seasonal unemployment which is a characteristic of Montreal, a seaport where there is a long, severe winter and where from time immemorial there are four or five months of the year when the great river is held in the grasp of the ice king, business slows down and employment is not available to a substantial number of

artisans, labourers and others who, during the active season, are able to lay up enough to carry them over this long period. There has been some improvement in the situation, but the fact remains that that city is top heavy, other cities in the dominion have a population which is entirely out of proportion to the gross population of the country. The trend of population from the rural districts to the urban centres has been manifest for the last 40 years; in 1890, 70 per cent of our people were on the land, if we are to take the words of Mr. Taschereau, reported to have been pronounced in Montreal the other day, 70 per cent of the people of the province of Quebec are now urban dwellers. For this vast accumulation of population in a few centres there are many reasons; some of them are economic, some are due to the war and I daresay there are a number of undisclosed reasons for this turning of the people toward the cities. Wo have built up an industrial establishment, of which we are proud and which has aided to make this relatively small country the fifth trading nation of the world. We boast of that fact, and we have reason to be proud. It was while we were building up this machine and while we were taking men and women from the land to man it that the population of the cities grew so rapidly. During the last ten years fully 70 per cent of our entire growth has gone to the cities.
When depression came, when there was a cessation in trade, we found that we had vast numbers of people who were helpless, unable to provide for themselves, not luxuries, not comforts, but the things which are essential to the maintenance of life. They could not provide food, fuel or raiment. For a time we did engage in a program of public works, determined by the various provinces, but ultimately we had to turn to the dole and speaking for Montreal at least, to-day we are feeding at the expense of the public purse more than two hundred thousand people. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that quick, quack methods prescribed by the hon. member for Macleod are inadequate.
We may establish a central bank; we may provide rural credits; we may enact laws providing for insurance against unemployment; these measures may help to reduce the acuteness of the malady but they will not cure it, because in our cities are hordes of people who depend for food and clothing upon industrial work and wages, and when these wages cease the people became dependent upon the state. I submit that a back to the land policy must be practised. I do not mean that we should send these people

Unemployment Relief

Mr. Hackett
to the outskirts of civilization and beyond. I do not mean that we should send them to Abitibi and Temiskaming. Last year from Montreal three hundred families went back to the land, but only a relatively small number of people are suited to pioneering. Pioneering is a profession for which people are not prepared by urban life. In the immediate vicinity of our large cities are organized territories provided with highways, schools, churches, telephones, electrical energy and all those things which go to make life possible and even agreeable to the ordinary man, and within those areas are any number of acres of good land which can be obtained at a very low price.
It is my suggestion that if public works are to be undertaken, these areas which are awaiting the return of those who abandoned them for the cities should be rehabilitated in some measure. It is not necessary that a family should have one hundred or one hundred and twenty dive acres; ten or twenty acres in the wooded districts of the eastern townships will provide a family with all the essentials. Where land is situated within reach of industrial centres there is bound to be a certain amount of interrupted employment in the factories which would provide workers with some money after they had met their immediate and urgent needs from the land. Moreover it is a strange thing that in Quebec, which is one of the oldest provinces and which is considered more rural than many of the others, there is produced only a small percentage of the foodstuffs consumed by the people of the province. To a greater extent, perhaps, than in any other province of the dominion the meats, vegetables and fruits consumed there are imported. Market gardening and small farming can be carried on to advantage.
I think this lends point to the suggestion that if people were helped back to the land within a radius of from twenty-five to seventy-five miles of the city of Montreal they could do much to bring back prosperity to the land and relieve the congestion in the cities. I do not suggest that every mechanic is suited for life on the land, but the fact remains that men were drawn from the farms into the factories during the days of great expansion. We built railroads, and some people think we built too many of them. We had to roll rails; we had to provide equipment. The late Sir Henry Thornton told the railway committee some time ago that within a few years, under his administration, the number of cars that had been scrapped and replaced, if put end to end, would reach from Montreal to the city of Kitchener. It was
that type of work that gave employment in the cities. Highways were built, and machinery for their construction was necessary. Grain elevators were constructed, and they had to be equipped with all manner of devices which were manufactured in the factories in the cities. Conservation dams and other great undertakings, including waterways were constructed. All the equipment, all the explosives and the other tools and agencies necessary to carry out these great works, were made in the factories, which were located principally in the cities. I for one fear that these days are over, for the immediate present at any rate; I believe that no matter if better times do return there can be no resumption of the volume of industrial activity which will absorb our people into the industrial life of the country. Therefore it is necessary that something be done to find gainful employment, or at least self-sustaining employment, for those who have been out of work for two, three and even four years in the cities.
I said a moment ago that everyone is not suited for service on the soil, but let us take a census; let us find out what proportion of the people in the cities who are unemployed came from the land. I am informed that in the city of Montreal there are between 15,000 and 20,000 families, the heads of which are out of employment, who were brought up on the farm and know in a small way at least how to cultivate the soil and care for domestic animals. Those men, if they were given an opportunity, could grow the food which they require for themselves and their families, commodities which are now being bought for them by the various governments, federal, provincial and municipal. Under the government's policy for reestablishing people on the land an amount of $600 is allowed to each family. This policy has been carried out in conjunction with the railway companies. It may be entirely accidental, but the fact is that the points at which these families have been established are so remote from the points from which they originated that more than half of the amount allotted to them is consumed in transportation expenses. If they could be taken to an area where land can be cheaply acquired and where, in many instances, buildings needing only slight repairs already exist, where schools, churches and other incidents of civilization are available,
I feel much would have been done both to rehabilitate the soil in the older sections of rural Quebec and Ontario and to relieve the strain of unemployment in the cities.

^54	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Hackett
Then, there is the other class to whom the hon. member for Macleod referred, namely the youth, the boys and girls who have attained maturity during the depression and who for the last two or three years have festered in activity and have seen the hopes of youth blighted by a hoplessness which they may never be able to shake. They would welcome this outlet for their energies. Employment, life in the open, a sense of responsibility and respectability which comes from doing something, would be one of the not inconsiderable and invaluable results from such a policy.
We are now in the month of February. This is the time a census should be taken in the large cities. I know that would not be difficult in the city of Montreal, where there are social agencies representing every class, every creed and almost every nationality. These agencies would, I am confident, be glad to place themselves at the disposal of the government to take the census. When the census is taken in the early spring- because it is only then that the people can, with wisdom, be taken to the land- many thousands of families could be located at short distances outside their respective cities. This would give employment. Many of the unemployed have worked in the Angus shops and in the Canadian National railway shops. Their services under the present railway policy when so much track is to be torn up and there is a limitation in the need for cars and other equipment, and a tendency to pool the resources of the railway companies will not be in demand for some time to come. If these people could turn their energies toward the construction of modest houses, they could thus pay a substantial amount of the cost of their own homes.
There is nothing original in a scheme of this kind; it has been worked out by several people, one of whom is the mayor of Moncton. My suggestion is that now is the time to take the census; now is the time to ask the big cities to ascertain the number of their unemployed and unemployable, and to find out the number of those suited for reengagement in activities on the soil. I believe that a policy of this kind has more real value than some of the untried suggestions and schemes which could succeed nowhere except in the fertile minds and imaginations of their proponents. These old fashioned methods would do more than the new to bring relief.
We know that the people who first came to Canada had nothing but the soil, a few

crude implements and their courage. The land is still here; we have implements, and I for one refuse to believe that the courage is lacking. This is a moment of trial,, so frequent in the life of the individual as well as in the life of a nation. From the very first day of a plantation in Canada the Canadian people have had to encounter difficulties, arising from climate, Indian warfare, border feuds, conquests, racial hatreds, political difficulties, constitutional difficulties, and now economic difficulties-that is life. Someone has said that the "joy is in the journey" and "the secret in the search." We may not be able to make of Canada the Eden that the proponent of this resolution believes that its adoption would make it, but we can place within the reach of our people the means of providing food and other essentials for themselves, and make them again self-respecting, self-sustaining and free from, I shall not say the curse but the misfortune of being unable to provide for themselves.


Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminster):: Mr. Speaker, in rising to support this, resolution may I say, with hon. members who have spoken not only in this but in other debates during the present session, that one of the most serious problems facing Canada to-day is that of unemployment. Nor is unemployment a problem wholly related to those who are out of jobs; I have in mind many hundreds of people on the land, especially in the province from which I come, who, through the necessity of circumstances, are forced to go out seeking either direct relief from the municipalities or work of some kind so that they may be in a position to augment their meagre income. But to my mind the most serious -aspect of this unemployment problem is the estimated 500,000 youths of this land who cannot find employment, I would ask any hon. member present what his answer would be to those youths when they ask him: Can you find employment for us? To my mind that is one of the most serious things, almost a disaster, that is overtaking this country of ours.
I realize, Mr. Speaker, that public works is not a solution of our difficulties, and no one I believe has ever advocated that public works conducted either by the municipalities or by governments, provincial or federal, would be a solution of all our difficulties. Nevertheless something must be done; we cannot stand idle while a half million of our people lack employment and well over one million need relief.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Reid
Some have criticized the policy of President Roosevelt in the United States-what is called the N.R.A. Personally I hope it will be a success, because it has a material bearing on the affairs of Canada and the welfare of our people. If the people across the line begin to purchase more and are provided with more of the sustenance of life, it is bound to react to the benefit of Canada. I hope the N.R.A. will be a success in three of its objectives. Its first objective is to put more people to work; its second, to put more purchasing power in the hands of the people, and its third to ensure a more just distribution of rewards as between labour and capital. Surely no hon. gentleman would dispute that these are three most desirable objectives to be attained.
Some have criticized us for boosting President Roosevelt and his N.R.A. scheme, but if it were true, as the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) stated, that many Liberals were hop. ing that the Ottawa conference would be a failure, it would be equally true for me to say that many members opposite were hoping that President Roosevelt's scheme would fail.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Thomas Reid: But I would not be so unkind as to say that. I have heard it stated by some that we were overlauding President Roosevelt to the exclusion of our own Prime Minister. However, I am not unmindful that the leader of the Senate, the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen, has seen fit to hand out a meed of praise to President Roosevelt, and so if I follow him for a few moments surely no member on the other side will criticize me, because he was their leader for many years.
The N.R.A. has at least done this: It has put five million men to work, and that is quite an accomplishment. Talking of the N.R.A. policy in the United States, someone said to me the other day, "I know what Canada's policy should be designated. It should be the N.F.C.-nothing for Canada."
Before dealing further with the resolution itself I should like to refer to a few of the remarks of the Prime Minister in the speech he made at Vancouver. His remarks towards *the close of the speech I think were very ill-timed when he referred to the unemployed as "derelicts." In my opinion it was an insult to the unemployed to refer to them in, that way and to ask: Where was the pioneer spirit of our fathers? Our pioneers, he stated, did not ask governments to wet-nurse them. There axe thousands, Mr. Speaker, in this land who have taken very sorely to heart their being called derelicts, and hon. members who have interrupted, if they found them-
74726-23J
selves destitute and unemployed like many of our good citizens are, would feel just as keenly as they do about it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. gentleman
knows perfectly well that he is not stating the facts. He knows it perfectly well.


Thomas Reid: Mr. Speaker, it was accepted by many of that audience who heard it as referring to the destitute of our country.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It was not.


Thomas Reid: It was so interpreted not only by myself but by hundreds Who were there.
As to public works that might be carried out, there are many undertakings upon which the unemployed could be engaged at the present moment, and I shall take a few moments to mention some of them.
In British Columbia we have an undeveloped province with the settlers Lacking roads which if constructed would be an asset. They will have to be constructed some time anyway, and to go ahead with that work mow would not only be giving useful work to the unemployed but would be doing a national ser-vince as well. There are man}' public buildings which could be constructed. There is also the question of forestry in British Columbia. I should like to suggest to the government that our large foutmt-over areas be reforested. I am almost afraid ito report what is being done across the line in that direction for fear of being accused of having strong leanings 'that way, but a great work in reforestation is being done in the United States, where thousands of youths have been taken out into the wide open spaces under proper [DOT] supervision and are planting out trees which will be for the benefit of the nation in the days to come. That is a very commendable work which we might also do in this country. It would be a work of national importance and the benefits would certainly be reaped in after years.
I know that I may be asked, where is all the money to come from to provide works on such a large scale? I realize at the outset the danger of turning on the printing press. Past history has shown that the indiscriminate use of the printing press for the turning out of money has been disastrous to many nations.
I am not advocating that we 'turn on the printing presses, but I am going to suggest that we could issue money even if we keep to the Prime Minister's principle of sound money with a backing of gold and so issue many millions more of dominion notes. I am going to place a few figures on Hansard

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Reid
in support of that suggestion, and I challenge any lion, member to call it inflation when I am through.
The present gold coverage in possession of the government is roughly $70,000,000. I have the exact figures here, but I will use only round figures. The present gold coverage amounts to 38 per cent, and dominion notes issued amount to $184,427,000. That has been represented by the Prime Minister and by other speakers as sound money, with a backing of gold. Whether we like it or not, the fact of the matter is that our gold is worth more than that, as is evidenced by the export of gold during this past year from the gold mines of Canada, which drew some $23,000,000 extra owing to the fact that the dollar had been devaluated in the United States, or the price of gold raised to about $34 an ounce. Our gold to-day has a world market value, and Canada could obtain for it at least $34 an ounce; that is the gold which we keep in the vaults as coverage. However, if we took that gold at $34 an ounce, the present gold price, it would have a value of $120,000,000, and with a forty per *cent coverage it would mean that we could issue up to $300,000,000 dominion notes, which would mean that we could then issue approximately a further $115,000,000 of dominion notes. No one can say that that would be inflation if they .hold to the idea that there should be a forty per cent coverage in gold. Again, if the present gold coverage were reduced to twenty-five per cent, as advocated by the banking commission, we could issue at least $100,000,000, even though we held to the idea that our gold was not worth more [DOT] than previously.
I am rather surprised that the Prime Minister has not taken steps to seize all the gold in this country. Evidently Great Britain is trying to capture as much gold as she can, and the United States is adopting the same course. I notice in to-day's press that aeroplanes have been carrying gold from France to Great Britain. If we are going to follow the financial program of a country like Great Britain, it is passing strange to me that the Prime Minister has not placed a ban on gold and has not gone further and appropriated all gold in the country. I suggest to him that he take note of the $23,000,000 extra which the gold mines received this year. I think that amount should at least be taxed and a great deal of that profit accrue to the government and not to the private mine owners.
In order to carry out this idea a little further, I should like to place a few more figures upon Hansard. If the gold that is

lying in the banks and the present gold coverage of some $5,000,000 on deposit in the treasury by the banks were taken over by the Dominion government, it would mean that we would have a total coverage of over $100,000,000 in gold at the old figure. If our gold coverage were put at twenty-five per cent instead of forty per cent as at present, it would mean that we could issue up to $400,000,000 of dominion notes against that gold coverage. With a coverage of twenty-five per cent we would still have what is termed by some, sound money. As I have stated previously, gold is worth from $34 to $35 per ounce at the present time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How much did the hon.
gentleman say?


Thomas Reid: Between $34 and $35 per ounce.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wanted to be sure of
what was said.


Thomas Reid: If we valued our $100,000,000
of gold at $34 to $35 per ounce we could then issue up to $400,000,000 of notes. This Mr. Speaker would be along the lines of the argument used by the Prime Minister that we must have a coverage of gold. No one could call this uncontrolled inflation. It would not be turning on the printing presses as we would still have the gold to act as a bulwark or brake against the issuing of unlimited dominion notes.
It may.be of interest to the house to know that the banks retain a considerable portion of the gold while still having the privilege of coming to the Dominion government and depositing provincial and dominion bonds for dominion notes. According to the returns made by the chartered banks for December there is some $38,000,000 in gold coin, etc., and over $5,000,000 in gold coin has been deposited as security. This represents a total of a little over $41,000,000 in gold. We could keep our gold coverage, without being accused of inflation and could still issue many millions of dominion notes. I believe that this will be done before long; in fact it should have been done before this.
The interest alone upon the total public debt of Canada is well over $400,000,000 per year. How long are the people of this country to keep going to the money changers for that with which to pay this debt? In putting on a program of public works, the first thing the government should consider is how to make it possible for us to pay our debts. At present we have a debt burden of some $9,000,000,000 with interest charges of four and a half, five and a half and six per cent. According to this

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Geary
report, the government has advanced since 1930 some $137,000,000 for relief. The interest on this amount for three years would be approximately $20,000,000 if computed at the rate of five per cent. If the scheme I am putting forward were adopted we would easily save the total amount of money which the Dominion government has put out in connection with relief.
I bring these things forward in the best spirit and in the hope that notice of them will be taken by the government. I realize that the proposal does not offer a solution for our unemployment problems, but it is at least a palliative and would help very considerably during these times.


George Reginald Geary: Mr. Speaker, if I understood the last speaker (Mr. Reid) aright, he intimated that one hon. member who sits to your right, and that there may be more, had entertained hopes of the failure of the recovery plans now being promulgated in the United States. I have not heard of any such hope being expressed by any person, and I cannot for the life of me see why anyone should express such a hope. The two countries are so closely interrelated that the failure of a tremendous scheme such as that of the president of the United States could not fail to have consequences on this side of the line. If it succeeds, we are certain to receive some benefit. Why then should any man in his senses pray for its failure?
There is a difference between the two countries. The other night I heard the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) say that even if this spending program of the United States, involving some $15,000,000,000, were put into effect and that amount added to the debt of the United States, that debt still would be less per capita of the population of the United States than is the present debt of .the Dominion of Canada per capita of our population. For some time the United States has been a creditor country while Canada is and has been a debtor country. In forming any plan we must keep these differences in mind. To consider that we should follow slavishly an example set by the United States, is absurd when we consider the differences between the positions occupied by the two countries. If we can get something out of what they are doing to enable us to adopt a course which is good for our own country, we would be extremely unwise not to do so-
I am sure the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote) will credit every hon. member in this house with the same sympathy for the
plight of the unemployed as that he has expressed. I regret that the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) does not seem inclined to credit the Prime Minister with entertaining the same sentiments. His remark in that connection was entirely unjustifiable, and I should resent it very much if it were made to myself or of myself; and I am sure that the Prime Minister has every right to feel the same way, if indeed he has paid any attention to it at all. If you turn to the speech from the throne you will find towards the close of that document the following words:
My government propose further to promote employment by expenditures on essential public works ancl undertakings throughout the dominion.
So that we have at the inauguration of this session a declaration by the government that it proposes to do something along the lino suggested by the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote). I am not so sure myself that expenditures in that way will have the good effect which many people hope for from it. To me it savours rather of a stimulant, in medical parlance a shot in the arm, the effect of which is very likely to wear off, leaving the patient worse than he felt at the beginning. If it is the view of the government that, to the extent indicated, it will be a good thing towards inaugurating rapidity of circulation or augmenting the purchasing power of the people, I am perfectly prepared to subscribe to their better judgment in that regard. But when my hon. friend speaks of large scale undertakings, I assume that he means something which is not necessarily selfsustaining or necessarily, in the words of the speech from the throne, essential public works and undertakings, but something that is designed to go on and on and on until I suppose there will be no harm done by its withdrawal because conditions will then have improved to such an extent that it is not required. That however contemplates an outlook on the future expenditure of money which I cannot reconcile with good business at this moment. My hon. friend from Macleod takes that view I am sure because he does not propose that any such scheme should be financed through the ordinary method of issuing bonds and paying interest upon them. Rather, he reverts to that well known theory of his, that we could issue a great deal of money in this countiy without coverage, as I have heard him declare on some occasions, or at all events in a manner quite dissimilar from that we. are pursuing at the present time. There again I must leave the hon.
358	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief*-Mr. Geary
gentleman; the proposal suggests too much what my hon. friend from New Westminster spoke of-turning on the printing press. If we look at the speech from the throne, on the preceding page we will see that His Excellency speaking of the world monetary and economic conference, said:
The conference adjourned without dealing with many important subjects, but arrived at conclusions of especial interest and concern to Canada in respect to central banks, the gold standard, and the percentage of metallic coverage essential to the successful functioning of gold as a medium of international exchange.
Having that pronouncement in mind, we may rest assured that none of the possibilities contemplated by my hon. friend from New Westminster will be overlooked. The government and those entrusted with handling the financial affairs of the country will have all that in mind, and it may be that it will result in a further issue of money, either by reason of the increased value of gold or by reason of the decrease from 40 to 25 per cent in coverage. Whatever effect it may have on the issue of money, I can assure my hon. friend, both as t,o public works and as to the consideration of the advisability or the necessity, or however you like to put it, of an issue of further money with the gold we have now in hand, we can pass from these subjects, feeling that they are under consideration by the government.
My hon. friend from Macleod again invoked some of the names which are becoming almost household words in this chamber. Again I heard the names of Keynes and Clay and Fisher, and I don't know how many more. Someone acquainted with the doings of these people in England told me that there is a body of them numbering five who meet in Oxford quite often, and that from every conference they hold there emerge six diametrically opposed opinions, of which as a rule Keynes holds two. I do not for a moment suggest, however, that we must not listen to these men; I do not suggest that we must not listen to those who have opposing views. I do feel, despite something the Minister of Finance said the other day, that this matter of money, the monetary system, has been so thoroughly discussed by all and sundry in this country in the last two or three years that we must by this time have developed some expert knowledge of the subject, at any rate enough to enable us to say in this house that we are in a position to discuss the matter with some assurance, at all events, that we know what we are talking about, and that if we do not know what we are talking about we at least know what we want to say. These
{Mr. Geary.}
gentlemen are so varied in their views that there come to my mind the words of Dean Swift-I forget just where he said this: "If the fleas had been unanimous they would have pulled me from my bed." It may be therefore that if we ever could secure from these people some sort of unanimity-and I do not speak of them disparagingly as fleas-they might pull us out of our difficulties.
If you engage in the exploration of an entirely unknown field such as that suggested by the hon. member for Macleod, I think we should pause to think very seriously whether this should be the country to pioneer in that regard. So far as I know, and I am subject to correction, there has been no issue of what is called stamped scrip by any country. My hon. friend said that he knew of none, and I ventured the remark that I could-cite many instances of the issue, not of stamped scrip but of scrip. I remember in the closing days of the war every little municipality in France had its own scrip, and some people who were fond of albums bought enough to cover the pages of a first class album-scrip issued by municipalities, all of which went wrung. The method has not proved itself to have been efficient either as a means of accelerating currency or as taking the place of the ordinary currency.
Then it is suggested that we should simply issue money without any interest being paid upon it. That is a very attractive proposition and I do not see why, if it is sound, it should not be extended to our whole debt. Germany did it by the simple process of running her mark down to nothing. By repeated applications of the printing press she discharged the bonded debt of her industry at absolutely no cost at all. But I take it we have not got to that stage in this country; as I say, it savours too much of the printing press. I do not boggle at the word inflation. We have, goodness knows, inflation to a large extent now. It is recognized that the United States dollar has been depreciated; there has been inflation over there to 40 or 60 per cent of the original dollar. Now, we carry along with the United States. If you look at the exchange lists to-day you will find that our dollar is very close to the dollar of the United States, and if that dollar is depreciated our dollar is depreciated to the same extent. My hon. friends opposite were very keen last year on tying the dollar to the par value of sterling. At that time this looked like quite a good thing, because for a pound sterling one could get in this country only some S3 or $4. It worked out in this way, that if you sold so much wheat over there for so many pounds

Unemployment. Relief-Mr. Geary
sterling and. we raised our currency to parity with the pound, you would get so many more dollars over here for that number of pounds. But if we had done that and stuck to $4.86f as was proposed, we would be losing at the present moment a considerable balance in exchange. This only goes to show-and I do not use it as an argument in this matter particularly-that when you try to tie up to anything that has not a definite and sound yardstick to measure it, you have to follow it up and down through its various vagaries until at no time can you tell where you will be if you want to sell a bill of goods to be paid for next month.


George Gibson Coote: Will the hon. gentleman
mention anyone who suggested tying our dollar to the pound?


George Reginald Geary: I thought my hon. friend who has just spoken, did. I understood that was his idea last session.


George Gibson Coote: I never advocated such a
proposition; I advocated that our dollar should be worth at least as much as the pound. I advocated that our currency should, possibly, be at least on a parity with Australian currency.


Richard Bedford Bennett: On one of our agreements last year the hon. member moved an amendment to tie the dollar to the pound.


George Reginald Geary: I cannot say just from whom
the idea emanated. All I can do in that regard, because I do not have the record before me, is to stand in the judgment of Hansard; that will settle all questions between us. If I am doing my hon. friend an injustice in saying that he suggested tying our dollar to the pound, of course I accept his word.


George Gibson Coote: All I wanted to do was to make it clear that I did not advocate tying our dollar to the pound. I may have advocated that our currency should be at least as high as the pound. That is a distinct difference.


George Reginald Geary: I think we are rather quarrelling over words. That was the essence of the proposal made, perhaps not by my hon. friend, but I am quite sure, supported by him if he did not make it. Of course I shall accept his correction at any time he chooses to make one.
It is suggested by my hon. friend that it is quite legitimate for the government to issue money for expenditure on public works, taking those public works as a sort of security. I have never been able to see that argument. Public works are no security so far as I can understand; they are not realizable; they are not saleable; they have no market value; they have no value at all unless to the person who puts them up, except in very rare cases where perhaps they might be available for sale. Where one talks of issuing money against, as my hon. friend says, the security of a public building, one does nothing of the sold; one simply issues the money on the taxpaying ability of the people of Canada.


Mr. EULER:: Is that not pretty nearly the case as regards all our currency? As a matter of fact, there is not enough coverage.


George Reginald Geary: While we are not to-day redeeming in gold, the security as recognized by the world is there. I >am not wedded particularly to coverage. Whait I am wedded to is the view that we should not by legislation change the value of our currency so as to put it on a basis that is manifestly inferior to what it is at the present time, because when one does that, he is deteriorating our currency and the result would be bad. I have said in the house before-and it is no new thing-you may inflate by the printing press or otherwise, as you please, and if there were an iron ring around Canada, your exchange might be anything; it might be *wampum, one dollar bills, ten dollar bills, sharks' teeth, anything you can name as long as we do not go outside our own country. I do not think, however, we claim to be economically selfsufficient and I do not think we expect to be. We must depend upon our international trade, our international relations, and it is beyond my ken that in any country whidh trades internationally there can be any system of currency which is not capable of being measured against that of another country by some sort of yardstick. The United States has now gone back, not to the old pre-war gold standard, but to a gold standard; it has gone back to a measuring stick which is gold, and we must all look forward to going back to something of the same sort.
My objection to my hon. friend's motion is not as to the public works program. The government has .apparently a program of public works under consideration, but the hon. gentleman has spoiled his motion, it seems to me, by a system of financing it which is not sound. By his system a great deal of money will 'be issued by unsound means; the farmers may get so many more dollars for their ton or bushel of wheat, but with those dollars they cannot buy any more than they could before the dollar was inflated.
I do not intend to attempt to go into this question exhaustively. I cannot agree with
360	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Stewart (Edmonton)
the method suggested by my hon. friend for raising the money, and the question of the expenditures themselves and how they should be made is, according to the speech from the throne, a matter which is now under consideration by the government.


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (West Edmonton) :: Mr. Speaker, I have been greatly interested in the debate this afternoon; it has brought out many diverse opinions. I am bound to say that with much that has been uttered by the last speaker (Mr. Geary) I agree; but when he states that a public building has no value as a coverage for the issue of currency, to some extent I must disagree with him. I cannot see any difference between the borrowing, which is the usual practice, of the money necessary to construct a public building, having the bonds mature ten, fifteen or twenty years hence and paying interest on the investment during the whole period, and the issue within reason of money for a public building that is a permanent asset, less, of course, depreciation. I can quite appreciate the fact that my hon. friend is fearful of inflation and too much, money, but in my opinion the money is not going out of Canada; this is a domestic undertaking and has nothing to do with our exchange, and during the period of the investment we may well be in the position in which we are to-day, that we still have the necessary gold coverage, or, if need be, we can reduce it to twenty-five per cent.
I am opposed to the unlimited printing of money, because this would be useless, but I am fearful of our position generally in Canada, not alone that we are debtors to the extent of $9,000,000,000, which is a colossal sum for the Canadian people to pay interest on, but that we have our own federal debt, plus our railway debt which, as was mentioned by the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) a few days ago when he was speaking in the house, we shall have to assume. For the life of me I cannot see that it is safe for the federal government to borrow more mone3r and pay interest on it. The worst feature of the situation is that in all probability for the next few years we shall be faced with inability to provide by way of taxation the necessary revenues to carry on our ordinary everyday expenses. We are not the only sinners in that respect. The provinces are following in our footsteps, so that we have not a pleasant financial prospect to face. If the government, as announced in the speech from the throne, intend to begin the construction of public works to relieve unemployment, then to me it seems that the safe course to pursue is to issue additional

currency to a reasonable amount for that purpose. I do not say it should be issued to an unlimited extent, but I do hope they will not go into the marts of the world and borrow more money, thus adding to the public debt of this country upon which we now have difficulty paying the interest.
I do think this will be helpful; I quite agree with other speakers that it will not meet the situation in its entirety, but I think perhaps it would help carry us over what undoubtedly is going to be another serious year so far as unemployment is concerned. For a few moments to-day I had the pleasure of talking with General McNaughton, and I was rather pleased to learn that the result of the efforts of the federal government to provide employment, not necessarily paid employment but at all events to give men who could secure no employment, food and clothing-


Richard Bedford Bennett: And shelter.


Charles A. Stewart: -though I do not think we need bother to mention the remuneration they receive. I learned that almost fifty thousand young men have passed through the hands of the department. That is a very large number of our citizens, and if fifty thousand more men could secure employment under the plan now proposed it would all be helpful. Naturally this would apply not only to unmarried men but also to married men who are in receipt of relief today.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I just want to correct the hon. gentleman on one point, because I know he will be anxious to have it right. Fifty thousand men have passed through their hands, but there are twenty-one thousand men still in their employ.


Charles A. Stewart: I was merely mentioning the number given me by the general as having been employed from time to time since the inception of the camps.
I do not intend to go into the question of unemployment generally; we all deplore it and we all agree that something worth while should be done. I merely wish to say that so far as I am concerned I personally do not agree with the idea of going into the money marts of the world and borrowing funds for this purpose. I think plenty of work can be provided in the construction even of public buildings that are required by the federal government throughout Canada. I do not say that by this means we will employ a very large percentage of the men now out of employment, but it will be helpful and in my opinion it will be safe. So I hope that when the government bring down their program

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Maclnnis
they will bear in mind the two points I have mentioned, that we should not be charged with inflation, that we shall have plenty of coverage for the issue of this currency, and that the injection of this currency into circulation will be helpful in many quarters and will provide employment for those who cannot secure it otherwise.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver South):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to say
just a few words in support of the motion moved by the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Coote):	The hon. gentleman has a certain
amount of expert knowledge along financial lines. I do not say that I have any such knowledge, but it often occurred to me that a sound system of finance that impoverishes three-quarters of the population must have some flaw in it somewhere, and that is what has happened within the last few years.
I do not see that it should make any particular difference to the credit of the country if the dominion were to issue $100,000,000 of new currency or if the government should establish a credit of $100,000,000 in order to carry on some kind of work. The hon. member for West Edmonton (Mr. Stewart) is concerned about the debt of the country, and I should like to say something in this connection because I believe I know more about it than I know about finance. I believe it is absolutely impossible to carry on the system under which we are living without an ever-increasing amount of debt. I say it is impossible for this reason, that the producers of wealth never receive for producing that wealth sufficient to enable them to consume it, and consequently the surplus values which they produce cannot be removed from the market or disposed of except by creating new debt. That debt, whether it arises through investment in new capital equipment, whether it arises through government borrowings for public works, or whether it is spent in destructive effort in war, keeps piling up. There is no possible way by which those surplus values can be disposed of except by creating debt, so the longer the capitalist system continues the more debt we will have.
I believe that in dealing with this question of unemploj'ment we should take it for granted that every other hon. member of this house is just as interested in the problem and its solution as we are. Last year I spoke at many meetings at which I criticized the Prime Minister and the policies of this government, but I always stated that I was satisfied that the Prime Minister was just as much interested in finding a solution for the problem of unemployment as I was. But I wish to go further
than that. The Prime Minister insists on trying to find a solution within the ambit of the present system, and I say that a solution within the ambit of capitalism is absolutely impossible.


An hon. MEMBER:: No.


Angus MacInnis: Very well; bring forward your solution and pass it on to the Prime Minister. I am sure he will be glad to get it, because he has been looking for a solution for the last four or five years. Even if we went back to the peak of employment and production that existed in 1928, still one-half of those unemployed to-day would remain unemployed. The technological improvements in mechanical equipment make it absolutely impossible to decrease unemployment unless we increase very substantially the rewards to labour in the production of wealth. That is the point we should bear in mind, that no matter what steps we may take here, whether they be by way of shortening hours of labour or the provision of public works, they are merely palliatives, though even palliatives should not be turned down in an emergency of this kind.
I do not think there is any particular merit in the solution offered by the hon. member for Stanstead (Mr. Hackett), who suggested going back to the land and living as our pioneer forefathers did one hundred or one hundred and fifty years ago. Why stop there? If we are mot to take advantage of all the advances that have been made during that time why should we stop at one hundred years back? Why not go back many thousands of years and live in caves in the earth, as our forbears did? It is just as logical to suggest one as the other. As a matter of fact, life is very simple, if we would only take time to analyze it and not base our assumptions on preconceived ideas. Man has always been able to sustain himself, and has always done so. Primitive man provided himself with food and if he needed clothing he provided himself with it. But, as man advanced and gained knowledge certain divisions of labour came about, so that instead of one man doing all the labour necessary for his own sustenance he did only a certain part of it. Then he exchanged directly the product of that labour with some one else for something that person had produced. Now that we have reached the machine age although everyone of us, when he can, performs some useful social function in society, we are unable to exchange with others without paying tribute to a third party.
I am a street-railway man. When working in my home city I take various people to
362	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Maclnnis
work in the morning,-the tailor, the baker, the barber, the candlestick maker, the carpenter, the machinist. In taking those people to work I am merely exchanging certain services for services these people are performing for me. The tailor makes my clothes, the barber cuts my hair, the carpenter builds my house, and so forth.


Mr. GOTT:: I rise to a point of order. The hon. gentleman has spoken for ten minutes and has not referred to the matter before the house.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The hon. member addressing the house is in order.


Angus MacInnis: The resolution under discussion is very wide and if the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. Gott) does not like what I have to say he does not have to listen to it; consequently he will not learn anything.
The point I make is this, that while we are performing these services we are paying tribute to certain other people who have gained control of our activities. The amount they take in tribute has become so great that there is not anything left in the hands of the producers whch will enable them to consume the wealth they have produced. If hon. members wish proof of my statement all they have to do is to refer to -the resolution passed only a few days ago concerning the appointment of a committee to investigate the spread in the prices of commodities. The condition I have described has become so unbearable and so obvious that in these days everyone can see it.
I suggest the resolution moved by the hon. member for Macleod has considerable merit not as a solution for our problems, but along with certain other palliatives it would be the means of doing something for the great number of unemployed who find themselves not only suffering physical discomfort but who are in danger of losing their morale in the struggle with the conditions confronting them.
Mr. J. II. STITT (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I have listened with a great deal of interest to the resolution before the house this afternoon, and in order that anything I have to say may be properly recorded I beg leave as an introduction to my remarks to read the resolution. It is as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, in view of the large number of unemployed, and with the necessity of increasing the purchasing power of the people, it is expedient that the government give immediate consideration to the inauguration of a large scale program of public works, to be financed by a direct issue of noninterest bearing dominion notes.
The people in my constituency, and those of the province of Manitoba certainly expect
fMr. Maclnnis.]
me to make some contribution to this debate. I do not pretend to be an expert economist; I do not pretend to have a solution, but while attending a university for a period of three years before the war I had the pleasure and experience of trying to master some of the principles of economics. Then, following the war I was employed for a period of three years in the bureau of statistics, and for another three-year term I have been a member of this House of Commons. During my membership in this chamber I have learned something from the debates. May I say at the outset that I agree very much more with the hon, member for Macleod (Mr. Coote) than I do with the hon. members for Stanstead (Mr. Hackett) and South Toronto (Mr. Geary) who spoke this afternoon. I should also make it clear that in accepting the nomination as a candidate in the constituency of Selkirk I told the electors assembled that if the time came in this House of Commons when I believed the interests of my country were in conflict with those of my party, my country would get my vote.
I do not see any great reason why the government cannot accept the motion now before the house. It is already committed to a program of public works, although it is not stated in the speech from the throne whether or not there will be a large-scale program. In the very nature of things, if the program of public works is to be used as a remedy for unemployment it ought to be not a small but a more than ordinary program. From rumours I have heard and from reading between the lines I believe the government is contemplating a rather extensive program.
I should like to say this afternoon something which I hope will sink into the minds and hearts of every hon. member of the government and every hon. member supporting it. Before doing so, I must ask you, Mr. Speaker, to call for better order. I should like in this connection to refer to the reasonable speech made by the hon. member for West Edmonton (Mr. Stewart). There is an issue facing the government to-day the like of which has never faced any government in Canada. To the extent to which the government faces that issue it will be either victorious or defeated. Nay, more, Mr. Speaker; the welfare of the great mass of humanity in Canada will be enhanced, or the opportunity will be lost. There can be no doubt about that. If I could write upon the wall like the prophet of old, "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin." I would take the words of the hon. member for West Edmonton and say, "Beware, before you commit yourselves

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Stitt (Selkirk)
to a policy of going out, borrowing money and adding to the already burdensome debt of interest overhanging Canada at the present time." I suggest that the government do not neglect the proposal contained in this resolution, and that it consider the financing of public works projects by the direct issue of non-interest bearing dominion notes. I want to make myself clear. I do not believe in uncontrolled and unwarranted inflation, but I say that we have entered into an agreement with the great powers of the world-I believe that Canada is a signatory to that agreement-whereby our gold base may be reduced to 25 per cent. We are standing at the threshold of opportunity when the value of gold has been increased to this enormous extent by the action of the President of the United States, who has handed to this government and to this country, if they want to take, it, a present of almost $60,000,000. That is the situation to-day.
There is this to be said for the proposals enunciated by the hon. member for Macleod. He was fair and reasonable throughout the greater part of his speech. He did not advocate uncontrolled inflation. I want to say this right here in this house, that I believe that the kind of preaching of sound money that we have had in this country is wholly unsound. It has been sweet-sounding for the receivers of interest, but it has meant fury for the masses of Canadians; there is no doubt about that.
I cannot, however, follow the hon. member for Macleod when he proposed that this money ought to be issued in the form of scrip and that through stamps affixed thereto it should depreciate by one per cent per month.


George Gibson Coote: I made that as one alternative suggestion. There were several others.


Mr. STITT (Selkirk):: I do not think that suggestion is acceptable because it occurred to me, when that suggestion was made, that after a period of eight years the symbol of wealth which he proposed, namely scrip, would be automatically destroyed. But there is another reason even more cogent why his proposition should not be accepted. We would then have two kinds of circulating media in this country. We would have a poorer medium as against a better medium, and according to Gresham's law, which would immediately start to operate, the superior medium would be hoarded and the inferior medium would go into circulation. I do not think that you can have in any country a currency medium of more than one kind. I
think the experience of the world has tended tp show that the inferior medium always drives out the superior and more excellent one.
Nor can I quite agree with the hon. member for Macleod that that is the best way in which to give purchasing power to the people. There certainly is more than one way which ought to be considered. It is, however, one way by which we can secure purchasing power for the masses of the people and give them considerable employment.
The hon. member for Stanstead (Mr. Hackett) in his remarks said that there was no unemployment on the farm. It is true that there is plenty of employment on the farms in Canada to-day, but the agriculturists of this country are almost in a state of serfdom. They are down almost to the status of peasants on the soil. What is the situation that we have in western Canada? Half our export market has been lost; the price of wheat has been reduced almost by fifty per cent, and the whole graungrowing industry has to operate on a twenty-five per cent basis. Is this the time to increase the competition amongst producers on the farm? Is this the time to make more difficult the conditions under which agriculture is operating in this country to-day? That is only a palliative that will last only a little while. It is not really trying to mobilize the forces which we have in this country, and it is not a serious attempt to really cope with the situation.
I remember also that the hon. member for Stanstead said that we have built up in this country an industrial system of which we are proud. But, Mr. Speaker, I for one am not very proud of our industrial system. I do not see how any man in this house can be proud of the situation to-day, with thousands of railwaymen, for instance, thrown out of employment, and where the artisan and the mechanic has no longer any function to perform, where not only are the muscles of men deteriorating through idleness but the skill which their hands have learned through years of labour is being lost, and where hope is fading from their eyes and faith is dying in their hearts of having any reasonable kind of future life. No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot agree with the hon. member for Stanstead when he says that we are proud of our industrial system. I am ashamed of it, Mr. Speaker.
I had occasion the other day to speak in a church in this city for a little while, and I could not help saying that when that little group in the corner of this house says that things are wrong, they are certainly express-
14	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Stitt (Selkirk)
ing the truth. Things are wrong, and no matter what speeches are made on this side, no matter how many platitudes are uttered, no matter how we may talk of the spirit of the pioneers, I say that what this country wants is the pioneer spirit in legislation-the spirit that is not afraid, the spirit that is not the high priest of the status quo, the spirit that will go out, to use the words of Lloyd George, and develop our domain, and that will bring to the masses of humanity the necessities of life, for those necessities exist in abundance if only we have the will and the energy and the inspiration to find a way of bringing them to the people.
As there is going to be a program of public works in this country I think that the government should give very serious consideration to the motion that has been proposed. I have just been worrying about an attitude that the government might adopt, and I am going to tell the government through you, Mr. Speaker, if I may, just why I have been worrying as I have been. We have a situation existing in Canada in which we have to pay many millions of dollars in interest on the obligations of the national railway. According to the information that was given to the house by the banking committee last year, that situation is costing us $428,000,000 in interest annually. What are we going to do about it? Are we going to reduce taxation? Are we going to issue money on a twenty-five per cent gold basis and on a plan, consequent upon a revaluation of gold, so that we may cut down taxation? Are we going to refuse to give the people of this country the services they require and lose the opportunity of stimulating business? Or are we going so to organize and control the situation that we shall be in a position to give to the masses of the Canadian people the opportunity they deserve? There is no man or no group in this house that I need be afraid of and I want to say again just as profoundly and deliberately as I can that if this money that can be obtained by the reconstruction of our finances is not used in a humane, in a heroic and in a reasonable way to promote opportunity in this country, then the government will be defeated. In my humble opinion it will deserve defeat.
There is perhaps another matter to which I should refer. I think that one of the great difficulties which we are facing at the present time is the interest burden which the country is carrying. One of the reasons for this is the loss of equilibrium between the value of money being paid in the way of interest and the wages received for labour and. prices

obtained for other commodities. How can a man who agreed years ago to pay eight per cent interest upon an obligation feel that it is equitable for 'him to have to pay that nominal amount when he has to produce two and one-half or three times as much goods to meet his obligation? I believe that the time has come when we shall have to get money out of the pockets of the hoarder's and put it into the pockets of the spenders. Any scheme which can be elaborated by this house to do that very thing will help to solve the situation.
As an example, let us consider the situation of a farmer who contracted an interest obligation in 1926 when wheat was selling at $1.56 per bushel. With wheat selling a't 52 cents per bushel last year, that man had to produce three times the amount of wheat in order to pay the interest upon an obligation contracted in 1926. A nominal rate of interest of eight per cent in 1926 becomes twenty-four per cent when based upon present-day purchasing power. That is usury. When we talk about the sanctity of contracts and when we sanctify nominal rates of interest we forget that what looked like a reasonable contract in 1926 has become a slave pact in 1933. I think it was revealed last session that the parliament of Canada has the power to reduce interest rates already contracted for, and I believe we should exercise that power. If I have the time I shall try to develop my argument.
One of the great difficulties we are facing at the (present time is the fact that we are in the straitjacbet of interest. These long term contracts have taken possession of our whole body politic and economic and we do not seem to be able to extricate ourselves from the burden which is overpowering us. But we could do so by means of a simple amendment to the Interest Act. All we need to do is to state in clear-cut language that all interest rates contracted for and payable in Canada are to be reduced by thirty-three and one-third per cent. The question may be asked: What is going to happen to our external debt? What will happen to our external debt if we go on the way we are going? We shall not .pay any of the principal, let alone the interest. A true Conservative policy, a true Liberal policy and a true Progressive policy is one which faces facts. It is one under which the debtor can meet the creditor and say: This is all that I can pay; these are all my goods; this I will pay you but give me an opportunity to conserve some portion of the money you have loaned me and provide me an opportunity to pay you without becoming your slave.

Unemployment Relief-Mr. Stitt (Selkirk)
It will be stated that we owe $4,000,000,000 in the United States and that we must pay the interest upon this obligation. I believe that matter could be arranged by the international joint commission. I believe we could go to the United States and say something like this: Uncle Sam, we have been the best payers in the known world; in the past we have paid you all the interest and the principal we agreed to pay; we have also paid you a pretty penalty by way of exchange and we have given you nearly all the gold that we have produced during the last three or four years; when we borrowed this money you were willing to take our grain, our wheat, our coal and our lumber but you have now closed your doors; instead of leaving us a reasonable opportunity to pay you, you have put us in a position of serfdom. That is what the American tariff policy has done to this country. England is not able to pay her obligations to the United States. The Argentine is not able to pay and Russia still owes $500,000,000 which she has refused to pay. Why cannot we say to President Roosevelt and his advisors: You have a National Recovery Act in your country and we need one in ours; you as a great nation are dedicated to the principle that you cannot exist half slave and half free and we ask you to extend that principle to us your northern neighbour.
There is another way in which this could be done. In the act which we could pass curtailing interest rates by thirty-three and one-third per cent there could be a final clause to read as follows:
This act will not become operative until proclaimed by the governor general in council.
In the meantime we could go to the United States and show them the situation which exists in this country. We could say to them: Let us float new loans in your country at one-third less interest and thereby give us a chance to preserve our autonomy and our position as a creditor country.
Four billion dollars is owed to the United States and something like $1,400,000,000 to England. What has England done? The government of that country reduced the interest rate on a large loan, I believe it amounted to hundreds of millions of pounds, from over four per cent to something like two and one-quarter per cent. Did we not spend $2,000,000,000 in money and sacrifice the lives of 60,000 of the best of our sons to go to the assistance of England and the empire? Why could we not say to them: If we are British subjects and have paid you this tribute, why can you not give us an opportunity to free ourselves from these shackles that bear us
down? Give us a chance to live and to perform the services which are required by our people.
There is still another matter upon which I should speak. An excellent means of assisting the promotion of prosperity and increasing employment in this country would be provided by the creation of a reconstruction purchasing board financed by new money issued on the new gold basis. This would link up the buying power of agriculture and put the industries of Canada to work. This question may be asked: Is there any credit left in Canada; is there any purchasing power? Yes, there is. I believe it is true to say, of over 50 per cent of the farm owners and home owners in Canada, that they have no mortgages whatsoever on their lands and homes. I believe there are many farmers and home owners who have mortgages of less than 25 per cent of the value of their properties and upon which all interest and taxes are paid to date. By a questionnaire which can easily be devised in the' bureau of statistics an examination can be made of the purchasing power of these Canadians. Questions like these might be asked: Your name, your legal address; the municipality in which your land is situated; the encumbrances upon your farm or property; the amount owing, and whether taxes are paid or not; how much of your land is developed, and so on. A number of other questions would suggest themselves, all intended to ascertain the purchasing power or credit of the individual. Through the officials, the information received in answer to the questionnaire, might be verified by means of four letters. One letter could be sent to the registry office in which the land is located, to ascertain whether there was any encumbrance or not. Another letter could be sent to the assessor to see what the situation was in regard to tax payments and as to the amount of land cultivated and developed. A further letter could be sent to the bank manager, or a letter might be sent to the municipal official regarding the credit of the individual; and by means of a reconstruction purchasing board we could begin to place orders in the factories upon receipt of orders from the home owner or farmer, which would mean employment for citizens and credit extension for the farmers and home owners.
I am told that it is imposible to work out this scheme. It is not impossible; I contend that it is quite easy. I worked on questionnaires in the industrial census for three years in the civil service of this country, and the essential element in the scheme I propose is that it will prevent hoarding. No money
>6	COMMONS
Unemployment Relief-Mr. Still (Selkirk)
would be lent as money to the farmer or the home owner. The orders would come from these people to the reconstruction board and would then be offered to the manufacturers, and the money for the goods would be paid to the manufacturers or their agents direct, secured by a lien in the form of a promissory note from the agriculturist. By this scheme the 8100,000,000, if it is going to be created, could be put into circulation in the most feasible way, and it would guarantee a greater velocity of circulation than any other scheme I have been able to think of. It would mean that the farms would be reconditioned; old barns and homes would be repainted and redecorated. After the plan had been in operation a few months the board would find itself in this position; it would have orders possibly for four thousand mowers, five thousand binders, ten thousand sets of harness, fifteen thousand cultivators, twenty thousand democrats; and the farmer or home owner would be able to specify in his order to the board the particular kind of article he wanted. This would insure his getting a standard article and that the money was not being placed by those who were hoping to further their own political fortunes.
Just realize the situation we are faced with. Here is a scheme whereby the country can issue, without paying interest thereon, a sum of money all the way from 81 to $250,000,000; and as the money has not to be paid for in the ordinary way, that is to say, secured by obligations entailing the payment of interest, we shall have for it such goods and services as the country needs at the present time. Factories would start to work on orders for goods not [DOT] yet manufactured, and it would mean that the whole of eastern Canada would start operating again to supply the demands of western agriculture. It would mean, I believe, according to reasonable estimates, that the money would be turned over ten or twelve times, and if we utilized 8100,000,000 in this vay we should be able to provide within Can-ida at the present time anywhere from $1,000,000,000 to $1,250,000,000 of new business.
I have put up this scheme this afternoon largely because the opportunity presented itself and not because I have been prepared in the way I ought to have been to submit this suggestion. I appeared before the royal commission on Banking and Currency and presented these ideas to them. I was told I was afraid to make these proposals to the House of Commons. I am not afraid to make them, and I make them in the humble hope that they may be of some assistance and that this house will perhaps recognize that there are *ways whereby we can put this country to work 
at the present time. Let me add this additional feature. In handing these orders to the manufacturers we could say. "You are not going to have any overtime in your plant. If you are going to get these orders you will have to operate on a six or a sevenf-hour day and you will have to pay wages that are fair and reasonable, wages that will provide a reasonable standard of living." Perhaps this criticism will be advanced: Well, this is good only for a year or two, so long as the money lasts. I ask, however, what man can look forward more than one or two years in this present world with the forces of change and even of chaos operating in it? You can take this scheme of mine and if you save $133,000,000 of interest yearly you can put $100,000,000 into business in Canada annually, and you will not have the same interest obligations in twenty-five years that you have to-day.
The great burden we are facing at the present time is the burden of rigid interest rates, and it is closing around us like an anaconda ; it is squeezing the life out of the country or, to change the metaphor, it is poisoning the whole process, economic and politic. It means that capital to-day has no confidence; it is so imbued with fear that it cannot go ahead. When the present leader of the Conservative party in the province of Manitoba saj^s that this is the time for governments to get out of the way and give business a chance, I say that business is paralyzed with fear, and this is the time for the government to step in in a reasonable way to give a lead to business, to give the business man some confidence and to rebuild, on this system which is crumbling down, a new system that will be an improvement in which opportunities will be enlarged and Canadians may inherit the life for which they were intended.
I have given much thought to this proposition. I have laid it before influential men in this country and it has been received with a great deal of approbation. I hope that my contribution to the debate this afternoon will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended. In the year 1914 I offered my life for my country; that life was not taken. I offer now what ideas I have, prompted by no ulterior hope of profit to myself.
In closing I should like to commend the eloquent testimony which the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa), in his speech on the address to His Excellency the other evening, paid to the Prime Minister (Mr. Bennett) . That was a speech made by perhaps the most independent man in the house, a man who is now moved by the spiritual verities for in his speech he spoke about those

Questions
imponderables that moved the Prime Minister in his service to this country. He spoke about a possible basis of union when we could forget the party questions that divide us in the house at the present time. The citizens of Canada are not interested in the maledictions that are hurled at the little group in the corner and they despise the petty talk that goes across the floor of the house from party to party in a partisan warfare which really does not spell and will not work welfare in Canada. It may be stated that what I have suggested is only a dream, but it is something that I have worked out as a lawyer with what little knowledge I have of economics, with my experience as a member of this chamber and with what training I received in the Dominion Bureau of Statistics.
I remember one day when I was a soldier on the battlefields of Flanders, there was a huge gun that used to go off periodically; it exploded at a cost of $1,400 for each shot. As I listened to this gun, I used to wonder in my humble and perhaps dreamy way whether the time would ever come when I would have $1,400 to complete my education. That opportunity came and I am here this afternoon, humble as I may be, unlearned, unschooled and without the art of eloquence to move people who are not even listening to my voice. But if we had $2,000,000,000 to spend upon a war in Europe, if this country had thousands, nay millions, of dollars to send us over there in a blood-letting expedition, the horror of which can never be realized and never be painted by anyone who participated therein, surely the government of the day will not lose the opportunity; surely they will see that forces over which they have no control have placed in their lap, if they want to grasp it, the colossal sum of $250,000,000. Will it be used in a heroic and righteous way? Shall this country achieve prosperity or shall the nation perish?
Mr. HENRY E. SPENCER (Battle River): Mr. Speaker, I wish first of all to congratulate very heartily the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Stitt) on the able, earnest and valuable speech which he has just delivered. If hon. members would speak as directly as he has done on the subject before us, I feel sure many of our problems would be quickly solved. He has touched on certain important points, with some of which I shall deal; and I shall make some references to speeches made by other hon. members.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, February 8, 1934