1932-03-02

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received a message from His Excellency the Governor General, signed by his own hand, reading as follows:
I have received with great pleasure the address you have voted in reply to my speech at the opening of parliament, and thank you for it sincerely.
Bessborough.
Government House,
Ottawa.



BANKING AND COMMERCE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. R. C. MATTHEWS (Toronto East Centre) presented the first report of the select standing committee on banking and commerce, as follows:

The select standing committee on banking and commerce begs leave to submit its first report, as follows:
Your committee begs leave to submit the following recommendations:
1.	That your committee have leave to print its proceedings and evidence taken, from day to day, and that standing order 64 be suspended in relation thereto.
2.	That the quorum of your committee be reduced from 15 to 10 members.
3.	That your committee be empowered to engage and pay George A. Touche & Company, auditors and chartered accountants, to assist the committee in its investigation with respect to the price of gasoline as referred to the committee by resolution of the house dated the 11th day of February, 1932.
All of wffiich is respectfully submitted.
Mr. POULIOT:: Why is the committee to be reduced from fifteen to ten?


An hon. MEMBER:: The quorum.
Mr. MATTHEWS moved that the report be concurred in.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I direct the attention of the house to standing order 63, subsection (d) concerning committees:
On banking and commerce, to consist of 50 members, 15 of whom shall constitute a quorum.
Before the motion is considered that standing order would have to be suspended.
Motion stands.



INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS


Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister) moved:: That a message be sent to the Senate informing Their Honours that this house has adopted a resolution approving of the international convention for the amelioration of the condition of the wounded and sick in armies in the field, Geneva, July 27, 1929, signed on behalf of Canada by the plenipotentiary named therein, on January 29, 1930, subject to the following reservations:
That the government of the Dominion of Canada will interpret article 28 of the convention in the sense that the legislative measures contemplated by that article may provide that private individuals, associations, firms or companies who have used the arms of the Swiss confederation, or marks constituting an imitation thereof, for any lawful purpose before the coming into force of the present convention shall not be prevented from continuing to use such arms or marks for the same purpose,
the approval of the convention by this house being made subject to the said reservation; and requesting that Their Honours will unite with this house in the approval of the above mentioned convention, subject to the said reservation; and that the clerk do carry the said message to the Senate.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Privilege-Mr. Stewart. (Edmonton)

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Prime Minister moved:
That a message be sent to the Senate informing Their Honours that this house has adopted a resolution approving of the international convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war, Geneva, July 27, 1929, signed on behalf of Canada by the plenipotentiary named therein, on January 29, 1930, and requesting that Their Honours will unite with this house m the approval of the above mentioned convention; and that the clerk do carry the said message to the Senate.
Motion agreed to.


Richard Bedford Bennett: 
[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Hon. C. H. CAHAN (Secretary of State):: I lay on the table of the house a copy of an extra of the Canada Gazette containing a proclamation dated February 29, 1932, fixing March 1st instant as the date on which an act respecting the Beauharnois Light, Heat and Power Company, chapter 19, of the acts of 1931, shall come into force, and also copy of order in council P.C. 504, dated March 1,
1932, and made under the authority of the said act prescribing conditions on which the said company shall be permitted to divert water from the St. Lawrence.



PRIVILEGE- MR. STEWART (EDMONTON)

Hon. CHARLES STEWART (West Edmonton) :: On a question of privilege, yesterday
in the course of his remarks on the motion then before the house the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. MacMillan) made reference to contracts that were entered into by the previous government during the time I was Minister of the Interior and had charge of the department. I notice that these remarks are supported by affidavits by one Mr. Marshall, and a number of names are mentioned which I will not take the time of the house reading. I simply want to state that, so far as my administration of the department was concerned, once in a very great while we had individuals who did not live up to their contracts. This questions the integrity of the officials who were in charge and makes rather grave statements with respect to the matter. It is asserted that the Department of the Interior, over which I presided at that time as minister, must have had some arrangement with the railway company. I desire to deny emphatically that I ever had any arrangement with the Canadian National Railways or anyone else with respect to the sale of ties.
I wish also to deny emphatically that I was aware of the allegations contained in the statement made by the hon. gentleman and to say to him, to the house and to my successor that I hope every assistance will be given towards the carrying on of an investigation. This investigation would have to be conducted by the Saskatchewan government who are now in control of the resources mentioned therein.



DEBTS DUE TO THE CROWN

[Stage Direction]
Hon. E. N. RHODES (Minister of Finance) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 25, respecting debts due to the crown.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the object of this bill is to secure statutory authority to confirm a practice which has obtained in the past whereby when sums of money are owing to the federal government by provincial governments, municipalities, corporations, public offices, companies or private persons who are entitled to receive sums of money from the government, the Minister of Justice, when he is of the opinion that such a body or individual who may be entitled to receive money
Questions
[Stage Direction]
under statutory authority is indebted to the Dominion government, may retain the amount of such indebtedness from the statutory commitment. The effect of this bill will be to take from the department the responsibility which it has hitherto exercised and will place it in the governor in council upon the recommendation of the minister.
Mr. LAPOINTE:: Will this apply to income tax?
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. DUFF:: 1.	What was the number of officials in the fisheries department, employed in the department at Ottawa, previous to the provinces of Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta taking over certain duties and responsibilities in connection with the fisheries?
2.	What was the total amount paid in salaries per year to said officials?
3.	What was the number of officials of the headquarters staff of said department at Ottawa in the year 1931?
4.	What was the total amount paid in salaries during the year 1931 to said officials?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	The administration of certain fisheries in Ontario was taken over by the province in 1899, in the mainland portions of Quebec in 1922, and in the prairie provinces in 1930. The number of employees at Ottawa in the fisheries branch of the then Department of Marine and Fisheries in 1899 was forty.
2.	$22,772.11.
3.	Eighty-two.
4.	$151,120.
ministers' automobiles Mr. BRASSET:
1.	Were the automobiles that were at the disposal of the ministers of the crown, and the property of the government, sold?
2.	If so, to whom and at what price for each respective automobile?


Mr. RHODES:: 1 and 2. These automobiles were turned over to the salvage officer, government contracts supervision committee, for disposal, including assignment to departments where automobiles were actually required for public work and where these could be used to advantage instead of purchasing other cars.
No automobile has yet been sold.
[Mr. Rhodes.!


RIVIERE DU LOUP-CAMPBELLTON HIGHWAY
Mr. MARCIL:: Have any representations been made to the government to utilize that portion of the Quebec highway, extending from Riviere du Loup to Matapedia, Quebec, and Campbellton, New Brunswick, as part of the trans-Canada highway, and has any final decision been reached in the matter?


Mr. GORDON:: No information.
bonaventure point lighthouse keeper Mr. MARCIL:
1.	Has P. B. Bourdages, lighthouse keeper at Bonaventure Point, Quebec, resigned or been dismissed from the service?
2- If so, who was appointed temporarily to fill the position?
3.	Has a permanent appointment been made since, and who has been appointed?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	He resigned from the service.
2.	Ovide Bourdages from 28th April, 1931, to 14th October, 1931; Jean Napoleon Babin from 15th October, 1931, to 31st December 1931.
3.	Yes. Jean Napoleon Babin from 1st January, 1932.


POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT INQUIRIES, QUEBEC
Mr. FAFARD:: 1.	How many inquiries were held in the province of Quebec in 1930 and 1931, in connection with the Post Office Department?
2.	What was the cost of said inquiries as regards fees and travelling expenses?


Mr. SAUVE:: 1.	304.
2.	$20,131.03.
BINDER twine Mr. LUCHKOVICH:
1.	How much binder twine manufactured in Canada is sold in Argentina, and at what price?
2.	What are Canada's imports from Argentina ?


Mr. STEVENS:: 1.	According to Argentina trade returns the imports of binder twine from Canada for the calendar years 1928, 1929 and 1930, were:
Years	Kilogs	Pesos1928	
328,858	105,2351929	
453,597	145,1511930	
342,515	109,605
Note.-Peso = 96-5 cents.
Kilog := 2-204 pounds.
Average wholesale selling price of binder twine in the Argentine, middle of October:
1928-	6-20 gold pesos per bale of 50 pounds.
1929-	6-45 gold pesos per bale of 5G pounds.
1930-	7 "20 gold pesos per bale of 50 pounds.

Questions
2.	Canada's total imports from Argentina for the calendar years 1929, 1930 and 1931, were:
Years	8
1929		 9,137.820
1930		 7,641,000
1931		 3,205,430
Note.-Canada's principal imports from Argentina during the calendar year 1931 were:
Commodity	Quantity Value
Com	Bush.	3,718,290	SI,545,174Flaxseed	Bush.	331,074	308,202Hides, raw	cwt.	62,493	589,098Meats	
-	603,5(8
walker's cutting, que., post office _


Mr. GIROUARD:: What was the revenue of the post office of Walker's Cutting, in the county of Arthabaska, Quebec, for each of the years 1929, 1930, and 1931?


Mr. SAUVE:: Fiscal year ended March 31, 1929, $103.25; fiscal year ended March 31, 1930, S120.65; fiscal year ended March 31, 1931, $102.25.


ROGER SEGUIN
Mr. GOULET:: 1 Is it so that one Roger Seguin of the county of Russell was temporarily employed at the Ottawa city post office during what is known as the Christmas rush in December,
1931?	.
2.	Did he see active service overseas in the
Great War?


Mr. SALTVE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	No.


ST. THOMAS PUBLIC BUILDING CARETAKER
Mr HEPBURN:: 1.	When did the last vacancy occur for the position of caretaker of the public building, St. Thomas?
2.	Who was named temporary caretaker.
3.	Who made the recommendation to the
government?	.	.
4.	Who made application to the secretary ot the Civil Service Commission for the position?
5.	Who were on the eligible list in order of
merit?	.
6.	Who was first nominated by the commission for the position?	,
7.	Who was appointed to the position?
8.	Who occupies the position at the present time?


Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	November 25, 1930.
2.	Mr. Reginald Skilton temporarily employed pending appointment of permanent caretaker by Civil Service Commission.
3.	District resident architect.
4.	Applications were received by Mr. R. Winter, resident architect, Department of Public Works at Toronto, not later than November 29, 1930, from the following:
Percy Charles Baker,
Ernest Pitkin,
Reginald A. Skilton,
Peter Gerow Topping,
Sydney Williams.
5.	The first eligible list established contained one name, Sydney Williams, entitled to the disability preference as well as the usual returned soldier preference.
6.	Mr. Sydney Williams was assigned to the position by the commission.
7.	As Mr. Williams was rejected by the Department of Public Works under Section 24 of the Civil Service Act, a supplementary eligible list was established containing the name of the next qualified candidate. This was Mr. R. A. Skilton who was thereupon assigned to the vacancy.
8.	Mr. R. A. Skilton.


SULLY, QUE., POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	Has Mr. J. B. Plourde, postmaster at Sully, Quebec, been dismissed?
2.	If so: (a) on what date; (b) who asked for the dismissal; (c) who replaced him; (d) was the appointment of his successor made by the Postmaster General or by the Civil Service Commission; (e) were there many applicants for said position; (f) among said applicants were there returned soldiers; (g) is the present holder of said position a returned soldier; (h) if not, why was a returned soldier not appointed; (i) on whose recommendation was the appointment of the present postmaster of Sully made?


Mr. SAUVE:: 1.	The postmaster has been suspended.
2.	(a) 5th February, 1932; (b) C. E. Dube; (c) Andrea Tardif temporarily; (d) Temporary transfer authorized by Postmaster General; (e) Vacancy not advertised yet. Two applications already received; (f) Yes; (g) No; (h) Arrangements made temporary only; (i) C. E. Dube.


MARIE ROSE HOULE
Mr. LAFLECHE:: 1.	Is Miss Houle employed as stenographer in the customs department at Sherbrooke, Quebec?
2.	If so, what is the date of her appointment?
3.	Did she pass the civil service examinations?
4.	If not, who recommended her?


Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Miss Marie Rose Houle is employed as a stenographer at the Port of Sherbrooke, P.Q.
Questions

2.	Date of Miss Houle's employment June 4, 1929.
3.	No.
4.	Miss Houle was selected in the absence
of successful eligibles, from amongst the candidates who had failed to make the necessary marks in the competition for stenographer grade 2, bilingual. Two further competitions have been held without producing eligibles and Miss Houle's temporary certificate has been extended as follows:	6 months from
December, 1929; 6 months from June 4, 1930; 1 month from December 4, 1930, pending results of examination; 6 months from January 4, 1931; 6 months from July 4, 1931; 6 months from January 4, 1932.


ARICHAT PUBLIC BUILDING CARETAKER
Mr. DUFF:: 1.	Has Albert Burton been dismissed from the position of caretaker of the government public building at Arichat, Nova Scotia?
2.	If so, what was the reason for his dismissal?
3.	Who has been appointed as caretaker of said building and at what salary?


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	Yes.
2.	Misconduct.
3.	(a) David Terrio, temporarily appointed pending appointment of a permanent caretaker by the Civil Service Commission; (b) $37.50 per month.


AGRICULTURE-PAYMENTS TO PROVINCE OP QUEBEC
Mr. DORION:: 1.	What is the total amount paid by the Department of Agriculture to the province of Quebec for the years ending March 31, 1930, and 1931?
2.	What is the total amount paid by said department to the said province from March 31, 1931, to date?
3.	For what reason were said amounts paid?


Mr. WEIR (Melfort):: 1.	Total amount paid to Department of Agriculture, province of Quebec, for the year ending March 31, 1930, $7,946.05; for the year ending March 31, 1931, $12,600.43.
2.	Total amount paid to Department of Agriculture, province of Quebec, from March 31, 1931, to date, $7,372.66.
3.	Proportion of freight charges on live stock
shipped to Royal Winter Fair, Toronto: 192930, $1,642.59; proportion of prize money on account of pure bred sow club fairs: 1929-30, $5,905.75; 1930-31, $191.25; subventions due on account of cash prizes at seed fairs, exhibitions, etc.:	1929-30, $397.71;	1930-31, $12,409.18;
1931-32, $7,372.66.


* TRADE TREATY WITH POLAND
Mr. CASGRAIN:: 1.	Has the government entered into negotiations with the representatives of Poland in Canada with regard to concluding a trade treaty with that country?
2.	If so, how far have the negotiations progressed ?
3.	Why has said treaty not been concluded?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, I do not
think this is a proper question. Negotiations have been proceeding between the two governments and from the last conversation I had with the representative of Poland I understand they have been proceeding for the last five years. I cannot answer this question other than by making this statement.
[Mr. Cahan.l


DOMINION NOTES
Mr. WOODSWORTH:: 1.	What is the present total amount of dominion notes advanced under the authority of the Finance Act to the banks in Canada by the Minister of Finance?
2.	What is the rate of interest at present being charged such borrowing banks on said advance ?
3.	What is the lowest rate of interest charged the banks for such advances during the year 1931?


Mr. RHODES:: 1. $20,000,000.
2.	Three per cent.
3.	Three per cent.


COPPERMINE RESERVE
Mr. SPENCER:: 1.	(a) Was the Coppermine reserve withdrawn from prospecting and mining operations in 1918; (b) was it thrown open to prospecting on July 1, 1930?
2.	If so: (a) what were the reasons for such withdrawal; and (b) what were the reasons for such throwing open?
3.	Does the Coppermine reserve include the Great Bear lake area or any part of it?
4.	Have any pitchblende or radium claims been entered in the Coppermine reserve?
5.	In case of any mining claim in the northwest territories proving very valuable, what means are provided to make certain that the Dominion of Canada shall benefit fittingly as owner of the land?


Mr. MURPHY:: 1 and 2. Order in council, dated January 14, 1930, reads as follows:-Whereas under the authority of an order in council, dated December 21, 1918 (P.C. 3154) certain areas on the shores of the Arctic ocean, adjacent to the Coppermine river and Bathurst inlet, reported to contain deposits of native copper, were withdrawn from the provisions of the mining regulations in order that the deposit reported to exist in that region might be thoroughly examined; and whereas the Min-

Questions
ister of the Interior reports that due to the remoteness and extent of the territory affected, the thorough examination contemplated when the withdrawal was made has not yet been completed, and that the improvement which has recently taken place in facilities for transportation to and communication with that remote region, has now rendered it possible for such an investigation to be conducted by private enterprise; therefore the deputy of His Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of the Interior, is pleased to order, and it is hereby ordered that the order in council dated December 21, 1918	(P.C. 3154),
authorizing the withdrawal from disposal under the provisions of the quartz mining and placer mining regulations that portion of the northwest territories lying north of the 65th parallel of north latitude, and between the 105th and 116th degrees of west longitude, comprising the islands in and the territory adjacent to Coronation gulf and Bathurst inlet, be rescinded, and that on the first day of July, 1930, such area be again made available for disposal under the provisions of the mining regulations which are in force in the northwest territories of Canada.
3.	No.
4.	No.
5.	The collection of royalty and rental prescribed in section 91 and following sections of the quartz mining regulations, dated April 1, 1929.


NEW BRUNSWICK-MAINE CUSTOMS HOUSES
Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Was a customs house constructed on the road leading from Grand Palls, New Brunswick, to Grindstone, Maine?
2.	If so, when was it constructed, who was in charge of the work, was it done by day's work?
* 3. If done by contract, were public tenders called, and to whom was the contract awarded, under such call ?
4.	If no public tenders were called, how was the contract awarded?


Mr. RYCKMAN:: 1.	A customs highway office was constructed on the road leading from Grand Falls, N.B., to Limestone, Maine.
2.	The work was commented in the month of November, 1931, and the building was occupied in January, 1932. The work was done by contract and supervised by our local customs officer.
3 and 4. Competitive tenders were obtained and the contract was awarded to Mr. G. P. Smith, East Floreneeville, N.B., his being the lowest figure submitted.


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Was a customs house constructed on the boundary line between Andover, New Brunswick, and Fort Fairfield, Maine?
2.	If so, when was it constructed, who was in charge of the work, and was it done by day's work?
3.	If done by contract, were public tenders called, and to whom was the contract awarded under such call?
4.	If no public tenders were called, how was the contract awarded?


Mr. RYCKMAN:: 1.	No, but contract has 'been awarded.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3 and 4. Competitive tenders were obtained and the contract was awarded to Mr. Percy Britton, his being the lowest 'tender.


POINTE LEBEL, QUE., POSTMASTER
Mr. POULIOT:: 1.	What is the name of the postmaster at Pointe Lebel, county of Saguenay?
2.	Is he a British subject by birth or by naturalization ?
3.	If by birth, where was he born and on what date?
4.	If by naturalization, on what date was he naturalized?


Mr. SAUVE:: 1.	Henri Granier.
2.	By naturalization, according to postmaster's statement.
3.	See answer to question 2.
4.	No information.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. CAYLEY:: 1.	Wihat was the total amount of tobacco produced in Canada in the year, (a) 1930, (b) 1931?
2.	What was the total amount of tobacco, (a) stemmed, (b) unstemmed imported into Canada in (1) 1930, (2) 1931, and the origin of such importations?
3.	What was the total amount of revenue collected from imported tobacco?
4.	Is any refund allowed on tobacco imported into Canada and manufactured there?
5.	If so, what was the total refund allowed?
6.	What was the total amount collected by way of excise tax or duty on tobacco manufactured in Canada in 1930 and 1931?
7.	What were the average prices received by the tobacco growers in. (a) Canada, (b) United States in 1930 and 1931?
8.	Was any of the imported raw leaf tobacco afterwards exported, if so, how much?


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of all correspondence, the evidence of the investigation and report of the investi-



Unopposed Motions for Papers
gator, in the case of Jos. Berube, Indian agent, Cacouna, Quebec, and the appointment of his successor.


QUEBEC POWER COMPANY
Mr. FAFARD:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged in 1931-32 between the Quebec Power Company or any citizen and the government of Canada, concerning the application of the said company for certain money to help in the extension of the Quebec Power Company in the county of L'Islet, under the Unemployment Relief Act of last session.


UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF, HULL, QUEBEC
Mr. FOURNIER:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, letters and all other documents, exchanged between the Minister of Labour, all members of the cabinet or officials of any federal department and the city of Hull or other persons in connection with the work to relieve unemployment and the help granted to unemployed, from September 1930, to February 1, 1932.


BOARD OF CUSTOMS
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: For a copy of all orders and decisions of the Board of Customs issued or given during the past eight months.


OYSTER FISHING
Mr. VENIOT:: For a copy of new regulations relative to oyster fishing, and a copy of all correspondence received by the government regarding such regulations.


WHARF AT OAK POINT, NORTHUMBERLAND, N.B-
Peter John Veniot: For a return showing a copy of the pay sheets in connection with the repairs to the wharf at Oak Point, county of Northumberland, New Brunswick, as well as copy of accounts for material.


ARICHAT TELEGRAPHIC SERVICE
Mr. RALSTON:: For a copy of all papers, documents and correspondence respecting the recent discontinuance of the telegraphic service at Ariehat, and the dispensing with the services of the operator at that place, also respecting the substitution of a telephone service and the employment of another person to operate the same.


ARICHAT GROIN-CAPE AUGET BREAKWATER
James Layton Ralston: For a return showing a copy of the payrolls and time sheets in connection with work on the Ariehat groin in 1931, and in connection with work on the Cape Auget breakwater in 1930 and 1931.


WATERFORD POST OFFICE SITE
James Layton Ralston: For a copy of all letters and documents relating to the change of site of the Waterford post office in August last.


ANGERS LIGHTHOUSE KEEPER-DISMISSAL
Alphonse Fournier: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, letters, sworn statements and other documents, including all evidence, and the report of the commissioner who held inquiry in connection with the dismissal of Louis Mongeon, lighthouse keeper at Angers, county of Hull, and a copy of all reports, correspondence and other documents in connection with the appointment of his successor.


ST. ARSENE POSTMASTER-DISMISSAL
Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of all correspondence, petitions, telegrams, and reports in connection with the dismissal of Edmund Rioux, postmaster at St. Arsene, county of Temiscouata,and the appointment of his successor.


NOTRE DAME DU LAC POSTMASTER-DISMISSAL
Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of all correspondence, petitions, and reports in connection with the dismissal of Antoine Landry, postmaster of Notre Dame du Lac, Quebec, and the appointment of his successor.


ST. CROIX-ST. JOSEPH D'ALMA-DISMISSALS OF POSTMASTERS
Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of all correspondence, evidence taken at the inquiry, the report of the commissioner, and all either documents in connection with the dismissal of the postmasters at St. Croix, Maitabetchouan (St. Jerome) and St. Joseph d'Alma, county of Lake St. John, including all correspondence relating to the appointments of each successor of said postmasters.
DEQUEN POSTMASTER-DISMISSAL	'


Jean-François Pouliot: For a copy of all correspondence and reports or petitions in connection with the dismissal of the postmaster at Dequen, Quebec, and the appointment of his successor.


ILE AUX GRUBS LIGHTHOUSE KEEPER-DISMISSAL
Mr. BRASSET:: For a copy of all correspondence, reports and sworn statements, including all documents, in connection with the dismissal of Joseph Labrie, lighthouse keeper of the wharf of lie aux G-rues, Quebec.


ST. NICHOLAS SIGNAL OFFICER-DISMISSAL
Maurice Brasset: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, sworn statements, including all documents, iu

Motions jor Papers
connection with the dismissal of Maurice Lali-berte, as signal officer at St. Nicholas, county of Levis.


MONT CARMEL POSTMASTER-DISMISSAL
Mr. BOUCHARD:: For a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents relating to the dismissal of Georges Paradis, postmaster at Mont Carmel, Kamouraska county, Quebec; also a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents in connection with an inquiry with reference to the charges brought against the said Georges Paradis, including the proof and evidence given by all the witnesses heard at said inquiry and the decision arrived at.


KAMOURASKA POSTMASTER-DISMISSAL
Joseph Georges Bouchard: For a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents relating to the dismissal of Edouard Guy, postmaster at Kamouraska, Kamouraska county, Quebec; also a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents in connection with an inquiry with reference to the charges brought against the said Edouard Guy. including the proof and evidence given by all the witnesses heard at said inquiry and the decision arrived at.


ST. PASCAL POSTMASTER-DISMISSAL
Joseph Georges Bouchard: For a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents relating to the dismissal of Mrs. P. E. Cote, postmaster at St-Pascal, Kamouraska county, Quebec, and all the correspondence, reports and other documents relating to the appointment of her successor.


STE. ANNE DE LA POCATIERE-WHARF REPAIRS
Joseph Georges Bouchard: For a return showing the paysheets and vouchers of men employed by the Department of Public Works in connection with repairs on the wharf of Ste-Anne-de-la-Pocatiere, during the calendar year 1931.


LONG PILGRIM STATION LIGHTKEEPER-DISMISSAL
Joseph Georges Bouchard: For a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents relating to the dismissal of Philippe Morin, lightkeeper, at Long Pilgrim Station (lies Pellerins), Kamouraska county, Quebec; also a copy of all correspondence, reports or other documents in connection with an inquiry with reference to the charges brought against the said Philippe Morin, including the proof and evidence given by all the witnesses heard at said inquiry and the decision arrived at, and the qualifications of his successor.


ST. PASCAL POST OFFICE-CARETAKER
Joseph Georges Bouchard: For a copy of all correspondence, including telegrams, and other documents in connection with the appointment of a caretaker for the post office building at St-Pascal, Kamouraska county, Quebec.



UNEMPLOYMENT AND PARM RELIEF ACT

Ernest Lapointe: For a copy of all orders and regulations of the governor in council made under the act, chapter 58 of the Statutes of Canada, 1931, for the maintenance of peace, order and good government throughout Canada.



MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


James Layton Ralston: For a copy of the correspondence, documents, accounts and vouchers respecting the expenditure authorized in the province of Nova Scotia for federal public works to be paid for under the authority of the Unemployment Relief Act of last session, showing: (a) the amount authorized, (b) the amount expended.


James Layton Ralston: For a copy of the correspondence, documents, accounts and vouchers respecting the expenditure for contribution to works being constructed or contributed to by the provincial or municipal authorities in the province of Nova Scotia under the authority of the Unemployment Relief Act of last session, showing: (a) the amount authorized; (b) the amount expended.


James Layton Ralston: For a copy of the correspondence, documents, accounts and vouchers respecting the expenditure for direct relief in the province of Nova Scotia under the authority of the Unemployment Relief Act of last session, showing: (a) the amount authorized; (b) the amount expended.


James Layton Ralston: For a return showing the pay sheets of men employed on the breakwater on the south side of Cape Sable Island, in connection with the expenditure of moneys during the last six months under the Unemployment Relief Act of last session.


James Layton Ralston: For a return showing the pay sheets and vouchers in connection with moneys spent in the last six months on the wharf on the west side of Port Dufferin, Halifax county.


James Layton Ralston: For a return showing the pay sheets in connection with the repairs of the breakwater at West Baeearo carried on during the year 1931,


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 stand by arrangement.


James Layton Ralston: Numbers 1, 2 and 3 were to stand. The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Stewart) has, I think, no objection to allowing numbers 4, 5 and 6 to pass. They refer only to individual works and as I understand the situation, they are not matters that would be contained in the report which will be brought down as to the working out of the Unemployment Relief Act.
Motions for Papers


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: I think the information which my hon. friend desires will be found in the return which will be tabled and will be very complete, so I suggest that he allow these to stand like the others, and if the information is not satisfactory I shall supplement it.
Motions stand.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF, ST. HYACINTHE, QUE.

Mr. FONTAINE:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, letters and all other documents, exchanged between the Minister of Labour, all members of the cabinet or officials of any federal department and the city of St. Hyacinthe or other persons, in connection with the work to relieve unemployment and the help granted to unemployed, and especially as regards the construction of a tunnel under the Canadian National Railways, at St. Hyacinthe, since January 1, 1931.


George Gordon: With respect to this
motion I would ask that it stand until the return is made so far as the Department of Labour is concerned, because I feel that at least some of the information will be contained in the report that will be tabled, and if all the information is not there, then the department will be glad to supplement the return.
Motion stands.



WHARF AT BARACHOIS, N.B.

Peter John Veniot: For a copy of the pay sheets in connection with construction of a wharf at Barachois, Aboujagan river, county of Westmorland, New Brunswick, and a return showing:	(a) the
names of the men employed, and their respective wages since the work was undertaken to date; (b) the quantity of stone and lumber purchased, from whom purchased and the prices paid for such material; (c) the amount expended to date; (d) to whom cheques were sent in payment of wages and material; (e) whether or not the expenditure was made under the Unemployment Relief Act; (f) whether or not the work was done under contract or by days' work.


George Gordon: The same observations
that I made with respect to the previous notice of motion, apply to this one and numbers, 10, 13, 14, 35 and 36. For the information of the house, I believe I shall be able to table, before the end of this week or Monday of next week, the return required under the act.


Ernest Lapointe: Will that be before the legislation of which notice has been given is discussed in the house? So far as I am concerned there are standing in my name two

motions for orders in council and regulations enacted under the statute of last session, which statute it is sought to extend. I think the house is entitled to have those orders in council. I am asking, not for any correspondence or reports or documents, but for orders in council and regulations.
Motion stands.



IMPORTATION OF OIL OR OIL PRODUCTS

Mr. YOUNG:: For a copy of all correspondence exchanged between any or all of the Canadian oil refining companies and any department of the government, since May 1, 1930, in regard to the importation of oil or oil products.


Edgar Nelson Rhodes: There is no objection to
this motion passing subject to this reservation, that, in conformity with the practice established in such cases, any letters, papers, documents or memoranda which are confidential in their character shall not be produced.


Edward James Young: What are we going to consider as confidential?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. McGIBBON:: For a return showing: (1) The amount of lumber; (a) hardwood; (b) softwood, imported into Canada during the past year by the manufacturers of motor cars and trucks; (2) The number of motor car or truck bodies or frames, either wholly or partly made of wood, imported into Canada during the past year, showing the rate of duty, the amount collected, the kind of wood and the prices f.o.b. at the mills.
Motion stands.



UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF, ORDERS AND REGULATIONS

Ernest Lapointe: For a copy of all orders and regulations of the governor in council made under the act, chapter 58 of the statutes of Canada, 1931, for relieving distress and providing employment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Just before this motion
is declared carried, lest my hon. friend assume that his statement, not having been referred to, is accepted, I cannot say that all this information can be brought down before I move the resolution, because I apprehend it will be a very considerable task to secure all the orders in council, which are involved. Every time a payment was made to a province under the provisions of the agreement, an order in council was passed. There is a large number of orders in council with respect to every province in connection with these matters and

Bankruptcy Act
I cannot promise that they will all be brought down before the motion standing in my name is proceeded with. If there are any particular ones my hon. friend would mention, I shall try to see that they are sent to him.


Ernest Lapointe: I should like everything, but of course this depends on the explanations which my right hon. friend will give. May we assume he will give a full report?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I shall.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Peter John Veniot: For a return showing a copy of pay sheets connected with repairs to the wharf, Bay du Vin, county of Northumberland, as well as accounts for material.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I suggest that
this motion and also numbers 18, 19 and 20 stand pending the bringing down of the return under the Unemployment Relief Act.


Peter John Veniot: This is a motion asking for a copy of the pay sheets and the return submitted under the act will not contain that information.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Perhaps it will
contain the information the hon. member desires.


Peter John Veniot: If the minister will say that it will, I shall be glad.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: I have no objection to allowing the order to pass and if the return covers it, all right; if not, I shall supplement it.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Bouchard:
For a return showing the various projects and programs, including pay sheets, if any, carried on under the federal unemployment relief work, at Ste-Anne-de-la-Pocatiere, Kamouraska county, Quebec, during the calendar year, 1931.
George Gordon: I feel sure that all the
information asked for in this notice of motion will appear in the return, and if there is not any special reason for supplying the information sooner I would ask that the motion stand so that the staff can devote their time towards the preparation of the report.
Motion stands.



BANKRUPTCY ACT

[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Gobeil:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take the necessary steps to amend the Bankruptcy Act, and make provision so that the whole act shall not apply to wage earners, and to persons engaged solely in farming or the tillage of the soil.
Mr. GUTHRIE:: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a
point of order in regard to this motion. To my recollection this motion has been twice called during the present session and has not been proceeded with. Under the rule of this house, standing order 52:
When a private member's notice of motion shall have been twice called from the chair and not proceeded with, it shall be dropped, provided that it may be placed at the foot of the list on the order paper upon motion made after due notice.
I do not want to embarrass or inconvenience my hon. friend who seeks to move this motion, but there is the rule, and as I happen to be introducing within a day or two a bill to amend the Bankruptcy Act which will deal with this particular matter, I think we should follow the rule and that this order should be dropped from the order paper.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: If it is a fact that the
resolution has been called twice, and I take it that the Minister of Justice has satisfied himself on that point, it is improperly on the order paper and must be dropped.
Motion dropped.


Mr. GOBEIL:: As I was absent at only
one sitting on Monday I did not think the motion would be called, but as the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie) has said that the question will be discussed later, I am satisfied.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: That does not make the slightest difference.


Samuel Gobeil: As the hon. member-


Pierre Édouard Blondin: On the objection taken that the proposed resolution is out of order, the motion is struck off the order paper and is not now before the house, or debatable.


Samuel Gobeil: I accept Your Honour's ruling, but I should like to say that as long as-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.



CANADIAN CURRENCY


[Stage Direction]
On the motion of Mr. Boulanger:
That, in the opinion of this house, in order to well establish that the population of Canada
Canadian Currency
[Stage Direction]
is bilingual and that the country was settled by two great races, it is desirable that Canadian currency should be in both official languages of Canada.
Pierre Édouard Blondin: The same objection applies to the resolution now before us. It was on the order paper, called twice and dropped, and should not have been restored except in accordance with the provisions of the standing order just quoted in connection with the preceding motion. Standing order No. 52, subsection (1) is as follows:
When a private member's notice of motion shall have been twice called from the chair and not proceeded with, it shall be dropped, provided that it may be placed at the foot of the list on the order paper upon motion made after due notice.
In regard to this resolution and the one that has just been considered there has been no motion before the house, or agreed to by the house, to restore either of them to the order paper. Therefore they are improperly on the order paper and must go off.


Mr. BOULANGER:: It is true my motion has been on the order paper twice, but I gave notice of motion in accordance with standing order No. 52, and my notice of motion appeared in the votes and proceedings of the house. The motion was restored to the order paper at the foot of the list, in accordance with the rules and after due notice of motion; the Clerk of the House can testify to the correctness of my statements.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: The notice was of the
motion, but the motion never came before the house and never was dealt with. The Clerk of the House informs me that in the past when motions have been dropped the practice has been just to put them back on the order paper when the notice is put in the votes and proceedings. That however does not follow the rules of the house. No order has been restored to the order paper on my instruction by that method; it is an incorrect procedure, and must not be followed.


Joseph Oscar Lefebre Boulanger: I drafted a notice of motion in accordance with standing order No. 52, and followed closely its wording. I sent my notice of motion to the Clerk of the House, and if the rules have not been followed I am not at fault and should not be made to suffer.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I regret exceedingly that the hon. members who sponsored this and the preceding motion are inconvenienced, but I must say that the motion now before us does not comply with the rules of the house. It is undoubtedly true that the hon. member

responsible for this motion did give notice, but that was as far as it went. There is no record of a motion to restore the resolution to the order paper; such a motion has never been submitted to, or dealt with by the house. Until the house has expressed itself in favour of restoring the motion to the order paper it cannot be considered.


Joseph Oscar Lefebre Boulanger: Mr. Speaker, I am not responsible for the actions of an officer of the house.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: I do not pretend to hold the hon. member responsible, and it is still open to him or to any other hon. member whose resolution or motion has been dropped to have it restored to the order paper in the regular and proper manner.


Joseph Oscar Lefebre Boulanger: Mr. Speaker-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.
Motion dropped.



COOPERATIVE COMMONWEALTH


Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre) moved:: Whereas under our present economic arrangement large numbers of our people are unemployed and without the means of earning a livelihood for themselves and their dependents:
And whereas the prevalence of the present depression throughout the world indicates fundamental defects in the existing economic system;
Be it therefore resolved: That, in the opinion of this house the government should immediately take measures looking to the setting up of a cooperative commonwealth in which all natural resources and the socially necessary machinery of production will be used in the interests of the people and not for the benefit of the few-.
He said: Mr. Speaker, that we are facing a serious depression, indeed a crisis, will I think be admitted by all hon. members in the house, and by the public generally. It is useless for me to say anything further in that regard. I suppose however that a great many hon. members are inclined to take the position that the present depression is very temporary; we have been told on all sides that prosperity lies just around the corner. A great many of our most thoughtful people however, and certainly many of our economists, are beginning seriously to consider whether or not prosperity is assured and whether there is any prospect of a return to what has been called normalcy.
It seems to me it must be conceded that whatever the future may be, at the present time our economic system is failing to func-

Cooperative Commonwealth
tion. There are hundreds of thousands of people in this country destitute, having to depend upon public assistance for the very necessities of life, and there are many business men at their wits end to know what to do next. Under such conditions we might very well spend a little time in considering whether the present basis of our economic system is sound. I quite admit that the fact we are passing through a depression does not necessarily mean that there are fundamental defects in our system. It may be that those defects are temporary; I should like to suggest however that since there are similar defects and similar conditions in almost every country of the world to-day there is at least a presumption that the same sort of disease is prevalent all over the world.
In the February issue of Harpers magazine a very interesting article entitled The Fallacy of Profits, by Henry Pratt Fairchild, was recently called to my attention. In this article, which I should like to have summarized, but for which I will not have time, there is a very clear presentation of the inherent difficulties of our present, profit system.
Remember that after all the existing system is comparatively new. As many hon. members may not have read extensively concerning our economic history may I be permitted to point out that for veiy many centuries in medieval Europe the great majority of the people lived on small farms which they cultivated with comparatively simple machinery, managing thereby to earn a livelihood for themselves and their families. That was not a condition under which any could grow rich, but nevertheless they managed to exist. In addition to the farming or peasant population there arose a class of people engaged in small handicrafts, and in every district there would be a village in which would be located a blacksmith, a carpenter, a weaver, a shoemaker, and so on, who made sufficient goods for the immediate locality and exchanged these for the farm products of their neighbours. Then there came what historians know as the industrial revolution, when the larger tool-the machine-was discovered and mechanical power was applied to what to-day we call manufacturing. That machine has been expanded until we have the wonderful industrial plants with which we are familiar all over Europe and America.
On the basis of the machine there has grown up a very, very extensive organization through which we produce enormous quantities of goods and distribute them all over the world. As a later development or addition to the earlier machine of production and
distribution, we have our modern financial mechanism. Under this new system we have the ownership and control vested very largely in the hands of a few individuals. That new system is coming to be known pretty generally as the system of capitalism. This system, as I say, is comparatively recent. We may say it is a hundred or a hundred and fifty years old as developed in England, it is a much more recent development in most of the other countries of Europe, and it is only beginning to come into operation in such countries as China and Japan.
Undoubtedly this capitalist system has a great many achievements to its credit. It has enabled us to produce goods at a rate and to an extent undreamed of in the earlier days. In fact I think it is generally conceded that under this system the problem of production is very largely solved. A few years ago we used to be greatly troubled with the thought that population was increasing far more rapidly than the means of subsistence. To-day we hear very little of that. We believe that at the present time we are able not only to feed the people born into the world, but more than that, to provide for them a great number of the amenities of life. Undoubtedly the general standard of living has been substantially raised under this system.
On the other hand, within the last few years we are beginning to question very seriously the foundation of this system, and to ask whether there are not some inherent defects in it. You may say that since the system worked for a hundred years it may be assumed that it will continue to work. I do not think we can take that for granted. Let me give an illustration. In the early days of the west when speculation was rife it was all very well for A to buy a lot for $100 and sell it to B for $200, for B to sell it for $300 to C, for C to sell it for $400 to D, for D to sell it for $500 to E. So the merry process went on, everybody making money and everybody happy, until it came to the end man, who could not unload. Suddenly that system of speculation came to an end. It worked for a while, but there came a period when it ceased to function. In my judgment that is about the position of the capitalist system to-day. As long as there were external markets a country like England, which was the first in the race, might dispose of her surplus goods. The system developed and the markets kept expanding, so the opportunities for disposing of the surplus product increased with the development of the system. The few people who owned the machine were
Cooperative Commonwealth

able to pay back in wages to their employees only a part of what was produced; the balance was retained by them and put back into the industry. As Mr. Maynard Keynes says so well in the introductory chapter of his book The Economic Consequences of the Peace, it was understood that the capitalist was under obligation to put his profits back into industry.
The employers have been doing that, and it has worked for a while, but since the system has extended to other countries, we have now reached the stage where there seems to be a surplus of capital-that is, a surplus that awaits investment in the machinery of production. We have reached the stage where the great mass of the people do not seem to be in a position to buy back what has been produced. So our machine is very largely stalled at the present time. It is quite true that if we had another great war and had to send large quantities of goods in the form of ammunition, clothing and food to the soldiers at the front-these men, of course, having been withdrawn from industry-we might have a period of prosperity. That is what happened in 1914 when economic developments had almost put us in the desperate position of unemployment we occupy to-day. In one sense the war saved the situation and gave us a breathing spell, for our unemployed were occupied at the front, and those who did not become soldiers were employed in producing munitions, clothing and food for the army, a great impetus was given to industry, and its effect continued into the postwar period. Now we are back again to prewar conditions and the whole world is suffering under this great curse of unemployment, due to overproduction and overdevelopment- or more properly underconsumption.
Speaking of war, may I remind the house that the unregulated competition in which private individuals and great corporations have been engaged is in itself probably the prime cause of modem war. When we cannot get rid of our goods at home we have to ship them to foreign markets, and so there has been a race all over the world for foreign markets and for the sources of raw material. I think that the struggle between nations for economic advantage has undoubtedly been one of the major causes of modern warfare.
In recent years we have proceeded on the supposition that the profit motive was essential in order to get the best results from those engaged in industry and finance. I am not sure that we can all continue to agree with that view. As a matter of fact a great many of our best citizens must carry on without the profit motive. Our educationalists do
[Mr. WoodsworthJ
not work under the profit motive; they receive a salary, but they do not go into their academic work with the idea of making fortunes. Scientists are not influenced by any profit motive; they desire a reasonable salary, but they do their best work without any idea of building up a fortune.


Jean-François Pouliot: Politicians are in the same class.
Mr. WOODSWORTH Certainly they cannot build up a fortune, although some may be promoted to the senate or to the bench. But undoubtedly a great proportion of our people have had to do their best work in the world without the hope of building up a fortune. Only one class of people, those engaged in business, have been inclined to hold the idea: If you will not let us have the incentive of building up a fortune, we will not play the game. I should not like to think that that is going to be a permanent attitude on their part. There seems to be no reason why men who are organizers of big concerns and responsible for the finances of this country should not be actuated by other than purely mercenary motives or a desire for the power which-comes through the possession of wealth. As a matter of fact a great number of people engaged in industry and commerce, even under the present system, have no profit incentive to keep them going. When a man starts work in a factory to-day he knows he cannot be manager of that factory, at least the chances are very remote. A man engaged in any mercantile business to-day can hardly hope to be an independent storekeeper, nor can the man engaged in the banking business hope to own a bank. It is becoming more and more difficult, and so we find that the motive of private gain is not the one that induces most of us to go along from day to day.
There have been certain other results which I think are not quite so satisfactory as that of increased production. There has gradually developed throughout the whole of Europe and perhaps more particularly on the North American continent what might almost be termed industrial feudalism; a few of the great captains of industry or money barons practically control the whole situation. I wish I had time to describe the company towns which exist in some parts of the northern sections of Ontario and Quebec, but which I have seen in their most aggravated form in the province of British Columbia where there is one big owner or manager of one great corporation that owns the entire townsite. The plants or factories are in the centre-pulp.

Cooperative Commonwealth
works, let us say-and in addition the company owns the houses, the stores and everything else, and they alone can construct schools or churches. Such aggregations of people are known as one-man towns. The company controls the whole situation and they have a power such as was exercised by no feudal baron in the early days. There is no real freedom of speech in such towns, no real freedom of action; everyone is subservient to the one great corporation as represented in the manager of the town. But to a considerable extent our whole industrial life to-day is the same thing: that is to say, there are very few people who are absolutely free to speak out their own thoughts and to live their own lives. They are not economically free. That is not a desirable thing from the standpoint of society at large. It may be that we can produce largely, but if it means that we have degenerated into a race of well fed slaves, then I say it is not a good thing for the community.


Mr. BOURASSA:: And not always well
fed.


James Shaver Woodsworth: As my hon. friend
from Labelle observes, they are not always well fed. In the old days it was in the interests of the slave owner to maintain his slaves in good condition. To-day, the employer when slack times come turns his employees loose to browse for themselves, to find a living as best they can, becoming dependent upon the municipality, the province or the federal government. Certainly they are not well fed. So that we have a feudalism that lacks all the responsibilities which the feudal barons of old were accustomed to assume-feudalism without the corresponding responsibility. And in the larger world outside, that has meant international anarchy. It is a lamentable thing that most of the countries of Europe have extended their business interests into the various countries of the world, and with them the flag has followed trade. I think that has been the trouble. I should like to think that the time is coming when we shall not be held responsible as a nation for safeguarding the investments of individuals who go into any part of the country without any authority from their own government, and yet demand the protection of that government.
In that connection it is lamentable indeed that within the last few days some of our own men who have been engaged in the air service have been let out; and, finding themselves with nothing to do, they are now willing to sell themselves to almost any country that
will employ their services. They simply become mercenaries; and since their trade has gone, of bringing sudden death to others -because after all, so far as the military aspect of it is concerned, that is what it amounts to when they drop bombs upon people-they are willing to sell their services to some other country. It strikes me as a horrible thing that our own, well brought up Canadian boys should be obliged to do anything of that kind.
One of the best statements I have come across of the present situation is contained in the encyclical of Pope Pius XI, and I shall read from this because I know that a very considerable number of hon. gentlemen belong to the Roman Catholic church. I am sure I could not quote for them a greater authority than the pope's encyclical. Let me read:
Towards the close of the nineteenth century the new economic methods and the new development of industry had sprung into being in almost all civilized nations, and had made such headway that human society appeared more and more divided into two classes. The first, small in numbers, enjoyed practically all the comforts so plentifully supplied by modern invention. The second class, comprising the immense multitude of workingmen, was made up of those who, oppressed by dire poverty, struggled in vain to escape from the straits which encompassed them.
This state of things was quite satisfactory to the wealthy, who looked upon it as the consequence of inevitable and natural economic laws, and who, therefore, were content to abandon to charity alone the full care of relieving the unfortunate, as though it were the task of charity to make amends for the open violation of justice, a violation not merely tolerated, but sanctioned at times by legislators. On the other hand, the working classes, victims of these harsh conditions, submitted to them with extreme reluctance, and became more and more unwilling to bear the galling yoke.
. . . The immense number of propertyless wage-earners on the one hand, and the superabundant-riches of the fortunate few on the other, is an unanswerable argument that the earthly goods so abundantly produced in this age of industrialism are far from rightly distributed and equitably shared among the various classes of men. ... In the first place, then, it is patent that in our days not alone is wealth accumulated, but immense power and despotic economic domination is concentrated in the hands of a few, and that those few are frequently not the owners, but only the trustees and directors of invested funds, who administer them at their good pleasure. . . . This accumulation of power, the characteristic note of the modern economic order, is a natural result of limitless free competition which permits the survival of those only who are the strongest, which often means those who fight most relentlessly, who pay least heed to the dictates of conscience.
I have given an authority that may appeal to members of the Roman Catholic Church. One of the most outstanding utterances among
Cnoperativ} Commonwealth


Mr. WILLIS:: Was that resolution adopted?


James Shaver Woodsworth: It was moved by
W S. Gable and seconded by R. Doyle, and was carried.


Mr. MULLINS:: Who seconded the resolution?


James Shaver Woodsworth: Mr. R. Doyle.


Henry Alfred Mullins: I would advise the hon. member that this man Doyle comes from my constituency and he is an absolute radical.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I congratulate the hon. member for Marquette (Mr. Mullins) on having a radical in his community.


Henry Alfred Mullins: I am a member of that
organization and I did not have anything to do with that resolution.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I was quoting from the official minutes of that convention. I come now to Saskatchewan and I find that the united farmers of that province have adopted a provincial economic policy to the effect that no more provincial lands or resources be alienated and that no more homesteads be granted or farm lands sold, but that "use leases" be instituted and that all land and resources now privately owned be nationalized as rapidly as opportunity will permit.
The farmers of Alberta are fairly well represented in this house and can speak for themselves, but I notice that in a report presented at their last convention, at which I had the privilege of attending, they give a definition of the cooperative commonwealth. This definition is as follows:
A community freed from the domination of irresponsible financial and economic power, in which all social means of production and distribution, including land, are socially owned and controlled either by voluntarily organized groups of producers and consumers or-in the case of the major public services and utilities and such productive and distributive enterprises as can be conducted most efficiently when owned in common-by public corporations responsible to the people's elected representatives.
This is the definition given by a great body of Alberta farmers. When we find leading people in the churches, leading people in the great farming bodies as well as in labour, urging some sort of change in our present

Cooperative Commonwealth
economic system, the representatives in parliament cannot very well refuse to take the proposal into serious consideration.
Our problem may be reduced to very simple terms. In production we need natural resources; we need the equipment to work those natural resources and under our present financial system we need capital; we need labour, whether muscular or mental, the labour of hand or brain.


Edward James Young: Does the hon. member distinguish between the second and third factors, equipment and capital?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I referred to financial capital; under our financial system we need financial capital.


Edward James Young: Would not equipment be considered as capital?


James Shaver Woodsworth: It is in the strictly economic sense but it is not what we call financial capital. This brings in the money question. Let me illustrate for the benefit of the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Young) and other hon. members who may be interested. If we want to produce anything out in the country, we need good soil; we need some equipment, whether spade or plough, and we need the labour of the man at the other end of the plough. Then we need something which will tide us over until our crops are matured. In the old western days this used to be called a grubstake. If we want to go fishing, we must have the fishing areas, be they ocean, bay or lake; we must have our equipment, such as nets and so on, and we must have the- labour of the man who has some knowledge of fishing. Then, in addition, we need advances which will enable us to carry on until the fish are caught.


Edward Joseph Garland: And we need the fish.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The same thing is true of our coal mines. We must first have the coal areas, then the labour and the machinery, and under our present financial system we must have financial capital. The contention has been raised by the hon. members for Macleod (Mr. Coote) and Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine) that there is a scarcity of this financial capital.


Edward Joseph Garland: We know there is.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I think that is a sufficient answer to the question asked by the hon. member for Weyburn.
We have these four necessary factors in abundance in Canada. Every after-dinner
speaker, every one who goes over to the old country boasts of our wonderful timber lands, our wonderful mines and our minerals and fisheries. These men wax eloquent in a description of our resources, but I shall not take up the time of the house in attempting to follow their example. We have the equipment and we have the mining machinery to produce almost three times the amount required for consumption. We have great sawmills and we have the railroads to carry our material. Roughly speaking, I should say that we have the equipment available to produce almost three times what we are producing to-day.


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: And to transport it.


James Shaver Woodsworth: We have this
machinery of production and distribution, but yet we are in trouble. Our present system has developed to the point where a comparatively small number of men, either directly or indirectly, control the natural resources, the equipment, and the financial capital and labour is unable to get at these things. Our private ownership has developed from the small beginning where many men were in control to a point where one man is able to control great corporations and direct the destiny of hundreds and thousands of his fellow employees. In the old days finance was in the hands of the many; our savings used to be kept in a stocking or hidden away behind a brick in the fireplace, and when our friends needed a little assistance we were able to give it. To-day our system of banks has developed to a point where everyone makes his deposit in the banks, and the man requiring a loan is forced to go to these institutions who have control not only of the actual deposits but of the credit of the people based thereon. We have available a marvellous system of production but we cannot use it to its full capacity. Indeed, many cannot gain access to it at all.
I sometimes think it is like a vacant lot. No one is using it and it could be utilized to grow raspberries. There are plenty of spare raspberry canes but the man who owns the vacant lot will not permit it to be used and the man who possesses the extra raspberry canes will not hand them over. They are afraid that the raspberries grown on the vacant lot will enter into competition with their product. We have got into the habit of thinking that our productivity is limited and we continue to economize, whereas the resources of this great machine which we have built up are almost unlimited. Instead of denying our people the right to eat, or at
Cooperative Commonwealth

least to eat as much as they need; instead of denying them the right to wear respectable clothes, because we say we cannot pay dividends; we are too poor, and so on, we should be pouring out these things. Then we would start the machinery going again. I would urge: This productive-distributional machine has to be socialized. You ask: How? There are those who say: Go and seize it. That is a rather crude way of dealing with the situation, but it may come to that if it cannot be taken in any other way. There are many proposals as to how the transition to the new order may be made. I hold in my hand a book published thirteen years ago by Sidney and Beatrice Webb-a Constitution for the Socialist Commonwealth of Great Britain. This is the plan for a proposed British socialist commonwealth. If anyone wishes to see the steps whereby this could be brought about in Great Britain, I would recommend that he read this book by Lord Passfield who has outlined the developments by which this might be brought about. But unfortunately men are not always actuated by reason and they do not act step by step, so we do not know just what the next development will be.
I want to devote myself for the few minutes that remain to me to some of the objections that are constantly being raised. For example, we are told that the new arrangement would interfere with the rights of private property. I go back to the papal encyclical, in which I read:
It is rightly contended that certain forms of property must be reserved to the state, since they carry with them an opportunity of domination too great to be left to private individuals without injury to the community at large.
Surely that is clear and the position a reasonable one. Another quotation:
History proves that the right of ownership, like other elements of social life, is not absolutely rigid.
Anyone who knows anything about the way in which the crown lands of this country have been alienated, will understand that those who now hold them have very slim rights, so far as ethics are concerned, to the lands which they now occupy. Anyone who knows how the great water powers of this country, including Beauharnois, have been obtained, will not be very sure that the present owners are the rightful ones. Anyone who knows how railway charters were obtained in this country a few years ago may very well question the foundations of present ownership of private property. If anyone wants to take the trouble 
to find out how the private fortunes of Canada were created I think he might read what is now an old book by Gustavus Myers, History of Canadian Wealth, which was written some time ago and was suppressed during the war, which shows how the private wealth of the earlier wealthy people of this country was built up.
Then again we are warned that anything in the way of socialization would mean the banishment of private initiative. As a matter of fact I doubt whether the majority of our people, under our modern industrial system, have very much chance to exercise private initiative. They are simply hewers of wood and drawers of water. Under our present system we shall always have men who can never be anything else; but if we establish a cooperative commonwealth, they will play their part; they will have their share, and there will be a greater opportunity for the development of their initiative.
The question may be asked: Will such a plan work? That can be determined only by trial. What I want to point out is that the present system is not working and the onus of proof rests upon the apologists for the present system. What I want to do is to urge upon the house that we give serious consideration to developing another system. I do not say that this can be done overnight, but every time we develop the cooperative principle in industry, we go one step towards bringing about a cooperative commonwealth; every time we allow public ownership to replace private ownership and to be operated under democratic auspices, we take another step toward a cooperative commonwealth; every time we allow more authority and control to be given to employees, we come one step nearer a cooperative commonwealth. Every time we take wealth away from the superwealthy and thus make a more equitable distribution, we are bringing about a more stable state of affairs and are taking a step towards the cooperative commonwealth.


Mr. J. R. MacNICOL (Toronto Northwest):: Mr. Speaker, anyone who has worked on the farm or in the factory or in the office or, for that matter, in any vocation in life, knows that in order to make a success of any line he may enter, he must adhere to proven, practical principles. We have before us to-day a resolution which states:
And whereas the prevalence of the present depression throughout the world indicates fundamental defects in the existing economic system.

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After stating that, it continues:
Be it therefore resolved: that, in the opinion of this house the government should immediately take measures looking to the setting up of a cooperative commonwealth.
And so forth. If this resolution be adopted, it will of course revolutionize the present economic system, and therefore some other economic system would have to be substituted for it. When I was a boy going to high school -and I suppose other hon. members have had similar experiences-every now and then we would have debates, and I remember one debate in which the resolution was: "Resolved that the higher we get, the fewer." Whatever that means or whatever it meant when I was a boy, I do not recall. We have had in this house and out of it debates that have not had much more behind them than that resolution.
In every period of economic distress-and I rather think the term "economic distress" is a misnomer; there is nothing wrong with the economic system and I think the term should be " economic dislocation "-there have not been found wanting men here, there and everywhere throughout the land who will advocate what might be called social reform or social revolution or upheaval of some sort. Like most businessmen I have had something to do with the building up of the economic fabric of this country. I have made a study of economics for many, many years, and from a long period of practical experience I have learned this, that if men are to succeed they must first be willing to work hard. I do not necessarily mean working hard with your hands any more than with your heads. But men must apply themselves diligently. Another requisite is that they must spend less than they earn, and lay by something either to provide for the rainy day or to make it possible to project themselves still further ahead in life.
Recent issues of Nation's Business have carried some illuminating articles on the economic dislocation-I will call it that-of the period around 1837, of the economic dislocation of 1857, and of the prolonged economic dislocation of 1873 to 1879, and I believe that the next issue will give an equally illuminating account of the troublous times from 1893 to 1897. There has not been anything said in this debate so far which has not been said in each one of those troublous times. There were just as many parades then as there are to-day or as there will be, and I have no doubt that there will be parades, and more of them, of one kind or another. These accounts in the Nation's Business tell of the slogans that were
carried at the head of the parades in those days. In 1873 there was a great meeting held at the Cooper's Union, New York City, and there were placards reading as follows: "Civil rights are passed. Now for the rights of work."-"Freedom for labour. Death for Monopolies"-"We demand suspension of rent"-"When workmen begin to think, monopoly begins to tremble." We hear those same slogans to-day and will likely hear more of that kind in the future. There is nothing new in this whole agitation. But in every one of these depressions in the past the economic system overcame its dislocation and the world went on with its business again and prospered.
I predict, Mr. Speaker, that the present economic dislocation will also end, and that the world will get on with its business in a businesslike manner.
Let me try and touch on a few of the causes of the economic dislocation as I see them and as I have read of them, because there have been many searching inquiries into the causes in different countries of the world for some time past. To a business man it is as clear as ABC, and when I say business men I do not confine myself to industry but take in the whole ambit of business, the professions, agriculture, in fact, the entire economic fabric of this country.
During the period of twenty years from 1899 to 1919, we find that the productivity of industry increased at about a normal rate. I am not now speaking of agriculture because I am not conversant with its productivity, but during that period the productivity of industry increased approximately ten per cent. That is, a man working in industry during that period was able to produce ten per cent more than a man working in industry prior to 1899. Prior to 1914, if I may refer to Europe for a moment, the great nations of Europe- Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Great Britain and other countries, were all great producers of textiles, iron and steel, chemicals and other allied and additional lines. Not only that, but the great countries of Europe were exporters in all these lines. Germany, for instance, was not only a great exporter of manufactured goods in these and allied lines, but was a large producer and exporter of sugar. Likewise Russia was a large producer and exporter of sugar. Now what happened in 1914? When the war broke out, the great countries of Europe, instead of being exporters of all these lines of goods and scores of others that it is not necessary for me to ' mention, became importers. They could not produce enough for themselves; they had neither the equipment nor the man power to

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produce their requirements, and so they went out into the world and appealed to the fanners of America, north and south, to Asia, Africa and India, India being a part of Asia, and to Australia, and begged them to produce to the limit the different food commodities that Europe required, and further they asked the industrialists of all the world outside of Europe to go ahead and man their plants to the limit, to experiment, investigate, call in experts, produce the highest powered machines possible. Why? Because Europe required the equipment and could not produce her requirements herself. The result was that during the period from 1914 to 1918, and the reconstruction period following 1918, the world saw the greatest expansion of productivity in its history.
Reverting for a moment to the war period itself, America, as every member of this house knows, erected plants the like of which the world had not seen before. I have in mind a plant erected in Chicago for the turning out of steel plate. That plant turned out plate 120 inches wide. The demand was so great for the product that the people financing the industry formed a tandem association of plants consisting of ten plants whereby they were able to start their ingot at plant No. 1 and bring it out at plant No. 10 in any thickness desired. Any one familiar with the steel industry must know that heretofore the ingot had to go back and forth through the rolls until it was reduced to the desired thickness.
In 1918 the war ended and through necessity Europe returned to the production of its own requirements. Very quickly European plants overcame domestic demands and became exporters. So great were reconstruction requirements, however, after the year 1918 that all of the world plants were required to produce the necessary amount. There had to come an end, however, and that end did come. When it came, in January, 1929, the world found itself over-equipped, so far as the turning out of its requirements was concerned. That however was not a fault of the economic system; the system had nothing to do with that result. The war was at the root of the trouble. That great disaster clearly demonstrated that the best possible way to preserve the equilibrium of the world is to have no war; war itself is the greatest of destructors, and our present distress is a result of it. If we could but learn to follow the great admonition of the Prince of Peace, to live in harmony and peace together, we would go a long distance in preventing future economic dislocations.
There were other causes correlated with those I have enumerated. Never in the

world's history, so far as the studies of chemistry, physics and mathematics were concerned, did men rise to the heights they attained from the years 1914 to 1929. The result was that from the standpoint of employment certain industries did not increase in demand. First let us consider the musicians. Every hon. member knows that only a few years ago it was difficult to secure the services of a musician; the demand was great for bands and orchestras. But along came the sound films, and the musicians found themselves out of employment. Certainly the economic system is not to blame for that; the change was brought about by an advance in physics and chemistry.
Let us consider the moulding industry, with which I am more familiar. I can remember very well when a plant in which I was particularly interested employed approximately 700. Along came the moulding machines, with the result that instead of 700 men only 125 were required. The same effect was found all through industry; yet the economic system cannot be blamed. Industry has advanced; we all know it must advance. Productivity in this country, if our industry will compete, must equal the productivity of other countries. Let us consider the painters who have been displaced through the use of the paint gun. To-day we see men painting fences and buildings with an apparatus which sprays the paint all over the surface to be covered. What about the carpenters? Probably they have not been largely displaced, but certainly the demand for their services has been considerably reduced because the windows for large buildings are made of steel, and the partitions of concrete. In other words, the advance in the use of steel and concrete as a direct result of chemical and physical research has displaced many carpenters throughout the world. Then, the stone masons were displaced through the use of the concrete mixing machine; bookkeepers and other factory office helpers have been displaced through machines which subtract, divide and keep correct accounts. We cannot tell where the end will be.
In these days we use automatic telephones. Consider the hundreds and thousands, and probably millions, of girls who have been displaced through the use of these automatic machines. On the other hand, many men and women have as a result of inventions been given employment. As I said before however, and now repeat, I do not think for one moment that anything like the number dis-

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placed have been reengaged in other lines. Certainly we know that many of them are not.
Two other reasons occur to me as at least partial causes for the present economic dislocation. Every hon. member knows that during the last ten years we have experienced an almost unbridled reign of stock speculators and high pressure salesmen who loaded the populace with investments, giving opportunities to pay over long periods of time. Such selling of stock was unsound, but our economic system had nothing to do with it. Such things can be regulated, but when a collapse occurs we must not blame our economic system. If one cared to review conditions as they are depicted in the New York press of the years 1873 to 1879 he might learn of the economic dislocation which took place in the United States at that time. I have heard men older than myself say that Canada suffered accordingly. Unfortunately the Canadian records are not accessible; at least I have not been able to find any. Nation's Business, however, contains a record of the appalling situation which obtained in the United States. Hundreds of thousands of men were thrown out of work; there were riots in the great cities. In Martinsburg and Pittsburgh, the militia called out joined the rioters, and regular troops had to be called into service. To-day no such condition exists. Thanks to the enactments introduced by the present government to relieve unemployment we have no such conditions in Canada, and I repeat, I do not expect they will become so acute. I do not expect we are going to have anything like the conditions which prevailed from 1873 to 1879-conditions worse by far than anything we are familiar with at the present time. But Canada recovered from that very serious depression, the world got back to business again, and we shall see a similar recovery from the present depression. To hasten that recovery we must have courage and do our best to keep business going and maintain the unity of the country.
The mover of the resolution did not specifically suggest any other system to overcome the present depression, but as I listened to him I could plainly see the cooperative commonwealth to which he referred was but another name for collectivism or the system now in operation in Russia. The Toronto Star Weekly of December 5 contains a very illuminating article on conditions in that country. It is written by a very able man and I am going to read a few extracts under the three or four heads into which the article
divides itself. I do not for one moment contend that the condition depicted in the extracts I am now about to give to the house is the result of the economic system now functioning in Russia, nor would I say that the depression through which the world is now passing is the result of the fiscal policies which the various countries have in force. This, according to the writer, is what is taking place in Russia under their so-called cooperative system.
Our first experience of things Russian was far from pleasant, though, having survived, we are inclined to think that in no more effective way could we have been brought into contact with the realities of Russian life.
The tourists having arrived in' Russia, the writer says:
We shall not soon forget the endless delays in securing tickets and the contradictory statements made by the various officials. Evidently untrained and inefficient people were running things.
How far are the new rulers equal to their tasks?
On every side there are evidences of inefficiency. The purchase of a railway ticket is little less than an ordeal. The writing, the stamping, the cutting-off with scissors, the consultations, the being sent back and forward from one official to another-it is all most exasperating. Half of our time seemed to be spent in waiting-waiting for arrangements that did not come off; waiting for meals that were poor when at last they did arrive-such wretched service and at such outrageously high prices.
Now as to the stations: what were they like?
About two o'clock in the morning we found ourselves and our baggage on the platform at Orscha. To our consternation we learned that the next train for Leningrad would not leave until noon. There was no hotel in the place. The floors of the large rooms and hallways of the station were simply packed with men and women and children and babies, lying huddled together or stretched across their huge bundles and boxes. They slept as best they could, awaking to change positions or to eat some of the black bread and sausage which they fished out of dirty-looking sacks. The air was stifling.
This is the writer's description of the trains:
Two Austrian friends, *noth the help of a porter, undertook to secure us seats. They fought their way through a struggling mass of humanity and pulled and shoved us into a compartment. This compartment had seating accommodation for six people, but eleven of us were squeezed in, and others came in at intervals. We were fortunate, as many could find only standing-room in the corridor which runs along one side of the carriage.
Above us were stacked the innumerable bundles and baskets that probably contained the food and bedding necessary for a sojourn in Leningrad. The windows and the door were
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kept tightly closed. We thought of the Black Hole of Calcutta, and wondered whether we could possibly survive the night. The sight of lunches being eaten under these conditions was almost too much for Canadian stomachs.
Here is his description of the street cars:
Then there were the over-crowded street cars. Sardines were never packed so tightly, and sardines do not hang out of the sides of the tins! It is a fight to gain a foot-hold on the lowest step. It is like a continuous rugby scrimmage to work one's way to the front of the oar, and then there is a final fight to get through the exit doors.
As to the food, the writer says:
Everywhere, too, the long lines of people waiting for food, standing for hours and then likely only an insufficient supply.
With respect to waste the writer tells us:
These minor inconveniences and hardships are nothing to the enormous wastes of which every engineer complains. It is so often impossible to get materials and men when they are needed, even though there may be congestion at other points. There is often lack of coordination, endless red-tape, and all the other evils of a bureaucracy, and an untrained and doctrinaire bureaucracy at that.
In case it may be supposed that this was a trip taken at random, let me give this quotation:
It may be that to some extent we were "guided," shown only the best. We may even have had the wool pulled over our eyes, but we did visit various factories and houses, sometimes without a guide. We tramped many miles of dirty streets, poked up into alleys, used all the faculties we possessed, and the overwhelming impression was that here was a vast people on the march. True, their standards of living are low-so low as to be for Europeans almost unbearable.
As to the collectivist organization, the system suggested in the resolution, the writer says:
One journalist who knows Russia intimately said to me: "This collectivization of the farms is a tragedy-
I thought a moment ago I heard something about collectivization on the farm.
-for most of the people, to whom it means an entire _ overturn in their whole manner of life, a sacrifice of all that they have held dear. But it seemed inevitable, and another generation is coming on."
Now the last item:
One of the most noticeable things is the absolute equality of women with men. In Europe, of course, peasant women have always worked in the fields, and since industrialism has developed they have worked in the factories. Still, one is almost appalled to find women working side by side with men digging drains, or repairing buildings, or driving trucks, or sweeping the streets.

The dictatorship of the czars has been replaced by that of the communistic party. The traditions of the secret police have been carried on by the O.G.P.U. Central authority is everywhere in evidence. Reliance seems to be placed on edicts, and then poplar slogans. Hence development instead of being all along the line, is spotty, or perhaps I should say, "streaky." At present there is a drive in Moscow for the reconditioning of houses. Every energy seems to be bent in that direction. Tomorrow the drive may be for roads or school buildings.
I stated that a very able man had written the article from which these extracts are taken-none other than the member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth). I admire his great ability and when I hear him address the house I feel sorry that that ability has not been directed to the upbuilding of the country instead of-as I see it-pulling it down. I' do not want him to think that I am speaking unkindly, I always respect another man's views, but I cannot help expressing that opinion. I am going to invite the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre and his supporters to turn over a new leaf and to see what can be done to build up Canada.
The hon. gentleman spoke of our natural resources and of how they are being developed to give labour employment, and he is correct. I think that perhaps something might be suggested whereby more employment might be afforded. We have in Canada to-day in most of our industrial centres what are called industrial commissions. I cannot name offhand the cities in which these commissions function but there is one in the city from which I come and one of the ridings of which I have the honour to represent. That industrial commission has done a good deal of splendid work. During the several years it has been in existence it has been successful in establishing in Toronto at least one hundred industries of one kind or another. I give an arbitrary number, but it is not too high; if anything it is rather low. Each of the great railways also has an industrial commission, and these commissions have likewise done good work. I am sure that through these commissions cities and towns throughout Canada have been benefited by the creation of industry in these centres. The Department of the Interior has also a very small branch engaged in the same business, and it too has done notable work. If I am correctly informed, the rayon mills in the city of Cornwall which cost some $10,000,000 and give employment to about 1,200 operators- the hon. member for Stormont (Mr. Shaver) informs me that they number 1,300; I am

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glad he is at such pains to see that his grand old county receives due recognition-and I have recently read that the new mill which it had been intended to erect at Three Rivers is now to be located at Shawinigan Falls, and they are about to manufacture cellophane, if they are not doing so at the present time. At any rate, when it is in operation that enterprise will give employment to several hundred men. These industries and the plant at Kippawa which turns out their raw product are largely the outcome of the splendid efforts of a small branch in the Department of the Interior, which has followed the lines suggested, in the creation of industry in the country. I submit that we should continue our efforts in that direction.
To the business man it seems that we have too many commissions of one kind or another, and it would appear desirable to have them coordinated under one head. In Germany, for example, there is a Department of Industry and in France a Department of Economy. At any rate, considerable good would result from a department whose sole purpose would be the creation of industry through the development of our natural resources. I have no doubt that, under a capable man, it would result in employment for hundreds of thousands of Canadians. Anything suggested along that line will receive my support; I will support anything that will give Canadians legitimate employment. Indeed, that is the only reason I came to this house, to do what I could to increase the demand for labour through an increase in industry itself. Possibly the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has advocated something of this sort; if he has then I think he has done something worth while.
As regards unemployment, unfortunately there are periods all too frequent, when men are laid off temporarily or finally. They are laid off before the time they should be, and I think there is a great field there for those who set their hearts and minds on increasing employment in the country. Between 1919 and 1929, the world's productivity had increased 50 per cent, a larger increase than had taken place between 1899 and 1919. What has been the result? The numbers employed in industry fluctuated-assuming 100 to be normal-between five below and three above. In other words, the average employment did not increase but was frequently below the mark. In consequence thousands of men were laid off from time to time. Let me give two or three examples that have come under my own observation, one just last Saturday. A man who had been employed in a certain 41761-47
industry for thirty-two years was dismissed. There is now nothing for him; he has no fund on which to draw. It would have been well for such a man if during the good years he could have laid by something by way of contribution. I am sure that hon. members in the far corner of the house, and indeed in every part of the house, are as anxious as I am to do something to tide people over a period of unemployment.
I am told that my time is up and I shall have to close. Let me urge in closing that instead of upheaval, instead of pulling down, we should try to create so as to give more employment. That would be a lot better for the country. The old economic system around which the empire has been built up is the same system on which this country has been built, and on which the great republic to the south of us and other great nations of the world have succeeded. We should proceed along those lines instead of pulling down the system.


Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver South):: The hon. member who has just
spoken (Mr. MacNicol) implied in his closing remarks that those of us who support this resolution and who are looking forward to a change of things to improve the condition of the masses of the people only want to tear the present structure down. The hon. gentleman is assuming far too much. It is because we want to build up and not to tear down that we are taking part in this debate. It is for that reason that we have introduced the resolution. We realize to-day that the present economic system is tumbling about our ears and that nothing is being done about it. In proof of this we can quote men in all walks of life who have never at any time taken part in social reform of any kind. To assume that we bring forward this resolution as a means of tearing down the present structure is to speak without understanding what we are trying to do.
The hon. member who has just taken his seat pointed out the many improvements which have been made in machinery and the great developments which have taken place in our present system. He mentioned that the worker had been displaced by means of machinery and then went on to say that that had nothing to do with the economic system. If it had nothing to do with the economic system I should like to know what is the cause of our present difficulty. Our present system must be held responsible for what happens under it.


Joseph Henri Napoléon Bourassa: Or lack of it.

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Angus MacInnis: Or lack of it, as the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) points out.
In moving the resolution the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre points out as one of the indictments against the present system the fact that workers under present conditions have no scope for initiative; once they are workers they must remain so. While I agree with him in most other things I cannot agree wholly with him in this respect; there is one thing else open to them-they can become unemployed.
Part of yesterday afternoon and last evening was spent in the discussion of the unemployment situation, and the resolution now before the house points out that under our present economic arrangement large numbers of people are unemployed and without means of earning a livelihood for themselves and their dependents. Ample proof of this was furnished in the debate on the resolution moved a week or so ago by the hon. member for North Winnipeg. The figures furnished by the international labour office show that unemployment in Canada for the year 1931 increased by eighty per cent over 1930. With the exception of three other countries, this is the largest increase shown. The increases in unemployment in several countries are as follows:
Per cent
Netherlands	 92
Belgium	 128
New Zealand	 184
Australia	 34
United States	 30
Great Britain	 12
This great increase in unemployment did not take place because of agitation carried on by labour radicals or any other body. All countries of the world had capitalistic governments when the depression first set in; they are still under capitalistic governments, and the depression is continuing. It is quite true that from 1929 to 1931 there was a labour government in office, but not in power in Great Britain. This government did not carry out a socialistic or cooperative policy as we understand it; it tried to administer the affairs of the country along strictly capitalistic lines.
We do not blame anyone for what has happened; we are not like the other political parties who blame each other. The Conservative party blames the Liberal party for the conditions which obtained from 1922 to 1930 while, on the other hand, the Liberals blame the Conservatives because conditions are not improving at the present time. Our contention is that the economic system is breaking down not because of a lack of efficient administrators but because of inherent defects

in the system itself. We bring this resolution forward in an effort to provide wider scope for improvement and to better the welfare of the people in general.
I should like to quote from an address delivered by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens) to the Empire Club in Toronto, on October 8, 1930. Hon. members who have been in parliament much longer than I have know that the minister always speaks very well when addressing the house, but my opinion is-I say this without wishing to give offence-that he speaks much more intelligently when he is outside of the house. This may be because he feels he has more-freedom outside. After hearing him address the house last Friday I have come to the conclusion that he can speak with considerable intelligence even when in the house. The hon. minister's remarks to the Empire Club were as follows:
While one-third of the human race, which might be termed western civilization, including Europe and North America, has so perfected its system of mechanised production that it has more goods than it can consume or sell, the other two-thirds of the human race, which can be classified as eastern civilization, is in dire need of those things which lie rotting in the possession of the other division, and over the whole human race hangs, like a funeral pall, want, poverty, idleness and social disintegration.
This is not the raving of a radical socialist or a soap-box orator, it is the considered statement of the Minister of Trade and Commerce of Canada. I consider that he has treated the whole situation in a very concise manner. It will be noticed that Canada is included in what is termed western civilization; we are part of that civilization which has perfected its mechanical production to a point where we are able to produce more than we can sell or consume: It might be well to point out that there are many people in this dominion who could consume much more than they are consuming at the present time. The figures in connection with unemployment in Vancouver, part of which I represent, show that there are ten thousand people on unemployment relief. That is, they are either employed on relief work or receiving direct relief. I visited one or two of the refuges where workers are homed and fed, and in one building over a garage-and this is contrary to the by-laws of the city,-on a floor space of fifty by 120 feet there were beds one above another for 276 people, these beds being occupied at night. At another mission in the city of Vancouver there was a place four and a half feet by thirty-two feet where there were twenty-four people sleeping every night. And this is in a country where the Minister

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of Trade and Commerce tells us that we have so improved the mechanization of industry that we can produce more than we can sell or consume.
Of course the whole trouble is that under the present system production is carried on not to meet the needs of the people, but so that the products may be sold, and in order that that may be done, one must have the wherewithal to buy those products. If you have not the wherewithal to buy then, regardless of what the production of the country may be, you will be faced with conditions such as I have just outlined. The hon. member for Toronto Northwest (Mr. MacNicol) tells us that in order to succeed we must work hard. If he will provide the work, I am sure I can provide the workers and they will be workers who will work hard.
I quite understand that the Minister of Trade and Commerce, in making the speech in which these statements appear, was making a case for bimetallism, on which I am not going to say anything at the moment, because it is not germane to the question under discussion. Under our social system, as under all social systems, certain institutions spring up and at the present time we have at least one institution that is the subject of very much comment. I refer to banking. Again, on the same evening in the same speech, the minister said:
The trade problem of the world is to move the surplus goods from those who have them in abundance into the hands and for the use of those who are in need of them, and surely it is not beyond the wit of man to devise a system which will accomplish this end.
So far it has been beyond our wits to devise a system that will do that. However, he goes on further and says:
It is the business of the bankers of the world, through a proper monetary system, to achieve this objective, and the job is not being done.
First of all, I might say that if the job is not being done, governments have one function and that is to see that those things which are essential to the welfare of the state are carried out. If the bankers are not carrying out their function properly, no doubt the Minister of Trade and Commerce will take the matter up with the cabinet and see that something is done about it. But I do not agree with him that it is the business of bankers to provide a monetary system that will do the thing which he pointed out, namely, that will move surplus goods from those who have them in abundance to those who need them. Under our present economic system that is not the business of bankers; their business is to make profits for the share-41761-474
holders of the banks, as it is the business of every industry in the country to make profits for the people who have invested money in those industries. Under capitalism that is the business of every institution and that is the reason why at the present time, while we have abundance, those who produced that abundance are living under conditions which are anything but what they ought to be.
It will, however, be noticed that he said that eastern civilization has not yet perfected its mechanism of production so that it can produce sufficient for its needs. But what particular difference does that make when our western civilization which has perfected that mechanism so that we can produce more than we can consume and the eastern civilization which has not yet succeeded in doing that, there hangs a pall of want, poverty, idleness and social disintegration for the one because it has been able to improve its mechanism of production and for the other because it has not? But what would the people of this country do if by some catastrophe China and India should be altogether removed from the trade of the world? Suppose, by some catastrophe, they were engulfed in the ocean; would western civilization continue starving amidst plenty because it had no place to sell its goods? Is this not proof positive to anyone that those goods were produced to sell and not for use? Supposing for instance, those countries had, like Russia, abolished private property in the means of production, in which case from our high moral altitude we could not trade with them, then we would be in a bad way indeed.
The mover of the motion made some reference to the beginnings of the capitalistic system and I agree that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to secure a clear understanding of the present system unless we go back to its beginnings, unless we go back at least to 1769, when Stephenson had so perfected the steam engine that it could be used in production. If we go back to that time and consider the development that has proceeded from then until now, I do not think we shall say that the Great war was the cause of our present difficulties. If, as I say, we go back to Great Britain in 1769, we shall find that she was the only country in the world that was producing commodities by steam motivation. At that time we would find a virgin world as far as natural resources were concerned. All the civilizations and generations that had gone before had only begun to scratch the surface of the earth so far as its natural resources were concerned. But something else happened at that time. Great

Cooperative Commonwealth
Britain, manufacturing with steam driven machinery, began to sell her manufactured products in every part of the world, and she found a market because she was the only *country producing in that way. But she sold, not only her manufactured products, but the machinery and engines with which those could be produced, first to the United States, then to Germany, and the result was that those countries also began producing industrially. As each country in turn became industrialized, the market for such goods became less; world markets became constricted. If you will consider the conditions of that time, you will find that industrialization in the various countries of the world was accelerated as the mechanization of industry increased, so that Japan, the last great country to become industrialized, has done in about fifty years what it took Great Britain 150 years, or the United States 100 years, or Germany seventy-five years to accomplish. This was not because the Japanese were any more clever than the people of the other countries I have mentioned, but because they received the benefit of the capital, skill and experience of those countries that had previously become industrialized.
Again, if you go back to that time, as the mover of the resolution pointed out, the agricultural population was largely predominant. As a matter of fact, while I have no exact figures, I do not think it is any exaggeration to say that in 1769 the population of the world was ninety-five per cent a peasant population. As far back as 1820, eighty-eight per cent of the population gainfully employed in the United States was agricultural, but in 1920 the agricultural population in that country had been reduced to twenty-five per cent of the whole.
I would like to put in as concise a form as possible what I believe to be the fundamental defects in our system, and the reasons for the distress that we are facing at the moment. We are dealing with the system of society under which we live. The basis of the capitalist system is private ownership of the means of wealth production; that is, private ownership of lands, forests, mines, mills and factories. The owners of these means of production operate them, as I have pointed out before, for one purpose and one purpose only, namely, to produce profits, and the propertyless wage earner can get access to these means of production, and consequently to the means of life, only on the understanding that he will produce more for the owner than he receives in wages. He produces, in fact, values greater than the values he receives. The employer's 
profits, then, arise out of the surplus values which the workers produce and do not get, and the greater the difference between the values which the worker produces and the values which he receives in wages, the greater the profits of the employer. In other words, the employing class who make their living by rent, interest and profit, make their profits by appropriating the values produced by the working class in excess of their wages, and as I have already pointed out, the greater the amount of the values produced which the employing class can appropriate to themselves, the greater their profits. It seems to me that it logically follows that because profit is the motive in all capitalist production, as the hon. member for Toronto Northwest (Mr. MacNicol) has pointed out, every possible means is taken to increase the owner's share of profit, such as the forcing down of wages, increasing the hours of work, improving machinery and thereby displacing the number of employees in industry, and increasing the intensity of labour. I read a statement that was made by Colonel Cockshutt, of Brantford, of whom we have all heard, when speaking at a meeting of the Anglican Synod in Toronto last September. He stated that from twenty-five to fifty per cent of the workers in certain industries had been displaced in the last few years through improvements in machinery. Of course, the workers resist as best they may, but regardless of what they do, when markets become glutted with the goods which the workers have produced and which they cannot buy, their living conditions become depressed. It seems to me that it ought to be fairly obvious to everybody that if the workers in industry produce more than they can purchase with their wages, unless the owners consume the surplus, which because of its magnitude they cannot do, the surplus must be disposed of somewhere else than where it is produced. That is the reason why every country in the world, Canada included, is looking for world markets. World markets are an absolute necessity.
With the increasing use of machinery in agriculture the position of the farmer is becoming more and more analogous to that of the industrial wage earner. Because of his seeming ownership of the land and the equipment with which he works it, also for the reason, I presume, that on occasions he engages hired help, the farmer for a long time was under the delusion that he was a man of property; his exploitation by the real owning class was not so apparent to him as it was to his fellow-worker, the industrial wage worker.
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The wage worker sells his labour power direct to the employer by the day, hour, week or month, as the case may be, at its market value. The product he produces belongs to the man or corporation employing him, or purchasing his labour power. The labour power of the farmer is used in the production of the various commodities he produces, varying with the nature of the farming operations he carries on, such as the raising of wheat, fruit, cattle, poultry, and these products he tries to dispose of in the market, a market, mark you, over which he has no control. In fact the farmer has no voice whatever in setting the price of what he buys or in setting the price of what he has to sell. It is true that in the last few years, through cooperative pools and other agencies, the farmer has imitated his brother in the industrial cities, but not with any great success. When he takes his products to market he asks the buyer: What will you give me for it? When he comes to buy he asks the seller:	What are you asking for
it' He is at the mercy of a world market, and the surplus values that he produces go just as surely and just as completely to those who live by rent, interest and profit, as do the products of the wage worker which he,-the wage worker,-leaves in the factory when the whistle blows at five o'clock.
This system under which we are living at the present time did very well when the nations of the world were being transformed from a peasant and handicraft production to large scale industrial production, but it no longer suffices when that transformation is complete as it is to-day. Capitalism did very well when new countries were being opened up, when new frontiers were daily being pushed forward into new lands, when virgin forests were being replaced by industrial cities, but it no longer works when our civilization has become top heavy with huge cities as it is to-day. The function of government in the future, as we see it, must be that of organizing production. The policy of laissez faire in production is at an end, and whether we like it or not, the next step in successful and orderly government must be in planned production. The capitalist system we maintained has reached the limit of its usefulness, and it should now be replaced just as it replaced another economic system. The capitalist system functioned more or less efficiently in the past, when the surplus values produced could be reinvested as new capital, but to-day there is no place where these surplus values can be reinvested. While they could be reinvested, the workers in industry could be
assured of a certain measure of the essentials of life. However, with markets clogged with commodities for which there are no buyers, industrial workers and large numbers of agricultural workers are, as unemployed, thrown on the state for the essentials of life.
The hon. member for Toronto Northwest (Mr. MacNicol) looks forward to a revival or new expansion of business. Were it possible that such a condition could come about and the wheels of industry move once more, what would happen? The capitalist would again open his factory and his workshop; again he would reap the benefits of industry, and when the next slump came the unemployed workers would again be thrown on the state. If the state is to provide for workers not needed in industry in times of depression, then it should take the profits of industry in times of prosperity. In other words, if the capitalist class cannot organize the resources of the world so as to give everyone a decent standard of living, then the organization will have to be done by the workers of the world, including the farmers. From my point of view, and I believe from the point of view of my colleagues in this corner of the house, that is the solution which sooner or later will have to be adapted, whether we like it or not. To this government I say: Why waste time and risk a catastrophe by attempting to work out remedies which will not cure and palliatives which will not palliate?


Hon. H. H. STEVENS (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the importance' of the resolution is of course recognized by all hon. members who have read it. This afternoon I have listened to a very elaborate dissertation on the subject. Obviously in the few minutes remaining before the adjournment I could not properly enter into the discussion, and perhaps the house would not think me discourteous, and would not consider that I do not recognize the importance of the subject, if at this time I moved the adjournment of the debate.


Mr. HEAPS:: Mr. Speaker, I must object to a motion for the adjournment of the debate. If the motion were accepted the resolution would drop to the bottom of the order paper. On the other hand, if Mr. Speaker would call it six o'clock the resolution would retain its place.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: I, too, would object to the adjournment of the debate, because I should like to speak to the resolution.
Questions


Henry Herbert Stevens: I had no idea of curtailing discussion because as a matter of fact I should like to say something myself.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Very well; why not call it
six o'clock?


Henry Herbert Stevens: I had been looking at the clock and decided that obviously, the hour being so late, one could not sufficiently discuss the matter. If Mr. Speaker will call it six o'clock I shall be content.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, March 3, 1932