1931-05-06

Right Hon. R. B:: BENNETT (Prime Minister) :	Mr. Speaker, on the special motion
which has been on the order paper for some days I should like to move, seconded by Sir George Perley:
That a special committee consisting of Sir George Perley, Mr. Hanson (Yorlc-Sunbury), Mr. Gagnon, Mr. Stinson, Mr. MacDonald (Cape Breton South), Mr. Lapointe, Mr. Euler, Mr. Bourassa and Mr. Gardiner be appointed to consider jointly with Mr. Speaker the amending of the standing orders of the house governing the procedure to be followed in taking a division.
Those are the exact words in which the question was placed before the house.


Mr. SPEAKER:: This will have to be by
unanimous consent, since there is already a motion before the house.


Mr. BENNETT:: I was going to ask that
the first motion be dropped.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: By unanimous consent.


Mr. POWER:: I do not think we should
do this in the absence of the mover of the motion.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I understand that the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) agreed to this proposal. I do not think my hon. friend from Quebec South (Mr. Power) was in his place the other day when the hon. member for Labelle was here. Then it was only a question of setting up the committee, and I suggested to my right hon. friend the leader of the opposition that perhaps it would be advisable, in view of the duties we both have to perform, that we leave -this work to others and do not have our names placed on the committee, so I think there is no question of objection. If my hon. friend thinks this will be objected to we will try to accommodate the hon. gentleman who moved the first resolution in some way. However, if it is thought desirable the motion may stand.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Leader of the Opposition):: This being
Wednesday, I am afraid there will be no opportunity other than the present to speak about to-morrow's business. My right hon. iriend may have in mind some provision for to-morrow which will require a motion. In that event I should like to ask him at once if he is in a position to indicate what business will be taken up to-morrow.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am greatly indebted to the right
hon. gentleman for bringing up the matter, because if we are not able to make an arrangement such as I shall presently suggest I propose to proceed with the estimates of the departments which are now before the committee, taking up also the motion with respect to the General Act of 1928 for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes, and a resolution with respect to a bill. However, if it appeals to the judgment of hon. gentlemen opposite I suggest that, with the unanimous consent of the house, we dispose of the debate? precipitated by the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown). I know this was done on a previous occasion and in view of the circumstances, having regard to the interruptions in the business of the house, the estimates of
Questions

only one department are before the committee at the moment. I suggest that this procedure will expedite business and at the same time do no one any injustice. If that does appeal to hon. gentlemen opposite I would move that the standing order dealing with the matter be suspended for to-morrow and that the order of business be the continuation of the debate on the motion that the Speaker do now leave the chair, and the amendment thereto of the hon. member for Lisgar.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I believe that will be satisfactory at all events to the official apposition.


Mr. ROBERT GARDINER (Acadia):: It
will be quite satisfactory to us if we proceed to-morrow along the lines suggested by the Prime Minister.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That standing order 28 be suspended for to-morrow, Thursday, the 7th day of May, and that the order of business be the resuming of the adjourned debate on the motion that Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair, and the proposed amendment thereto of the hon. member for Lisgar (Mr. Brown).


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Pierre Édouard Blondin: Before proceeding with the 'questions I would remind the house that under :a former administration it was agreed that answers to questions should be tabled in triplicate, thus giving the member asking the question a copy of the answer and providing a copy for Hansard, with a third copy for the press. At present the practice seems to be to supply only two copies, thereby depriving the member of a copy of the answer to his question, which is a great inconvenience. I would respectfully ask the ministers to have answers to questions prepared in triplicate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In order that there may be no misunderstanding I may say that most of the answers are prepared in triplicate.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. POWER:: 1.	Have Albert Curtis, John Allen, James Cruikshank and Arthur Pritchard, all ex-service men, been recently dismissed from the Trent canal staff?
2.	If so, why were they dismissed?
3.	How long have they been members of the Trent canal staff?
[Mr. Bennett.!
4.	Upon whose recommendation were such dismissals made?
5.	Were these men replaced by men w'ho have seen no war service?


Mr. MANION:: 1.	Three of the men in question-Curtis, Allen and Cruikshank-have not been reengaged as labourers for the current season of navigation. Pritchard has been reengaged as foreman on two months' probation.
2.	For continued unsatisfactory services.
3.	Curtis, April, 1926; Allen, June, 1921; Cruikshank, July, 1914.
4.	The superintending engineer of the Trent canal.
5.	No.


CANADIAN OIL REFINERIES-EMPLOYEES
Mr. HEENAN:: .
1.	Has the number of employees of Canadian oil refineries been increased or decreased since last September?
2.	If so, at what points?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I explained yesterday
what the position was with regard to this question. I think it should be dropped.


Peter Heenan: There was a little noise
in this corner of the house when the Prime Minister made his statement yesterday, and I could not hear all that he had to say. Since that time I have had an opportunity of looking up his remarks in Hansard, and I do not think the Prime Minister gave a very satisfactory explanation. He went on to say that I might as well have asked the distance to Mars, or something like that, but the question is very simple. When the Prime Minister brought down legislation during the special session with regard to the oil refineries he was able to ascertain all. the information he required within twelve or at the most twenty-four hours in connection with these concerns. Since there are only four companies involved, and since there is a branch of the government whose function it is to ascertain the amount of employment and unemployment throughout the country, I think the Prime Minister could very easily answer that question.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I will answer the question; the government has no information.


COMMERCIAL TREATIES
Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):: 1.	How many trade or commercial treaties *were in existence between Canada and other nations on July 28, 1930?
2.	How many such treaties now exist?
3.	How many such treaties have been denounced, abandoned or abrogated since August 7, 1930?

Questions


Mr. BENNETT:: 1.	Seventeen.
2.	Seventeen.
3.	None. The benefits of the Australian Trade Agreement Act, which had been extended to New Zealand as from October 1, 1-925, were withdrawn as from October 12, 1930, in accordance with notice given April 12, 1930.
Commercial Treaties and Agreements between Canada and other Nations-
The treaties and agreements referred to above fall in three divisions:
Commercial treaties and agreements negotiated by Canada-
Convention of Commerce between Canada and France, signed December 15, 1922.
Convention of Commerce between Canada and Italy, signed January 4, 1923.
Convention of Commerce between Canada and the	Economic Union of	Belgium	and
Luxemburg, signed July 3, 1924.
Convention of Commerce between Canada and the Netherlands, signed July 11, 1924.
Trade	Agreements	beitween	Canada	and
British West Indies, Bermuda, British Guiana, and British Honduras, signed July 6, 1925.
Trade	Agreement	between	'Canada	and
Australia (concurrent legislation effective October 1, 1925).
Convention of Commerce between Canada and Czechoslovakia, signed March 16, 1928.
Trade	Agreement	between	Canada	and
Cuba (modus vivendi regulating tariff arrangements effective November, 19129).
Commercial treaties negotiated by the United Kingdom to which Canada has acceded-:
Treaty of Commerce and Navigation between Great Britain and Japan, signed April 3, 19.1il. Acceded to by Canada May 1, 1913.
Treaty of Commerce between the United Kingdom and Spain, signed October 31, 1922, as modified by the Commercial Convention, signed April 5, 1927, and agreement regulating the treatment of companies, signed June 27, 1924. Acceded to by Canada August 1, 1928.
Commercial treaties negotiated by the United Kingdom and which are applicable to Canada-
Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation between Great Britain and the United provinces of Rio de la Plata (Argentina), signed February 2, 1925.
Treaty of Friendship, Commerce, and Navigation, between Great Britain and Colombia, signed February 16, 1866.
Treaty of Peace and Commerce between Great Britain and Denmark, signed February 13, 1660.
Convention of Commerce and Navigation between Great Britain and Norway, signed March 18, 11826.
Treaty of Peace and Commerce between Great Britain and Sweden, signed April 11, 1654.
Treaty of Friendship, Commerce, and Reciprocal Establishment between Great Britain and Switzerland, signed September 6, 1856.
Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation between Great Britain and Venezuela, signed April 18, 1825.
The Commercial treaties negotiated by the United Kingdom with Finland, Estonia, Hungary, Jugo-Slavia, Latvia, Lithuania, Portugal and Roumania contain provisions under which the dominions and colonies may enjoy mostfavoured-nation treatment in respect of tariff rates, on the basis of reciprocity. Canada has exchanged most-favoured-nation treatment in respect of tariff rates with Finland since 1925, and with the other countries mentioned since 1928.


CRIMINAL APPEALS-DUTY STAMPS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. LaVERGNE:
1.	Is the Justice department aware that the attorney general of Quebec has imposed duty stamps on all appeals in criminal matter?
2.	Is the government aware that those duties are collected by the provincial government and turned over to the exchequer of the province?
3.	What action does the Dominion government intend to take in the matter?
Mr. GUTHRIE:: 1,	2 and 3. The government has recently learned that taxes and fees of the kind mentioned have been or are to be imposed, but has not received a copy of the measure in question. The matter will receive consideration by the government in due course.


INTERIOR DEPARTMENT-RETIREMENTS
Mr. CHEVRIER:: Of the Interior employees who have been retired or notified of retirement, in each branch,-
1.	How many are permanent: (a) at Ottawa; (b) outside Ottawa?
2.	How- many temporary: (a) at Ottawa; (b) outside Ottawa?
Questions


Mr. MURPHY:: 1 and 2.
Ottawa	Outside Ottawa
Permanent,
Permanent
Administrative	 65
Accounts	 33
Dominion Lands Administration. 07
Dominion Observatorj	 5
Dominion Water Power and
Hydrometric Bureau	 12
Forestry	 28
National Development Bureau. 76
National Parks	 25
North West Territories and
Yukon Branch	 10
Surveys Bureau	 91
Temporary	Full time and seasonal	Temporary9	-	-. 7	-	-49	216	900	-	-3	12	3S	360	4016	o O	22	_25	-	1-	-	-126	591	136


INTERIOR DEPARTMENT-BRANCHES AFFECTED BY TRANSFER OF NATURAL RESOURCES
Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	What are the names or designations of the various branches of the Department of the Interior that were directly affected by the transfer of the natural resources to the western provinces?
2.	How many positions in each of said branches were abolished as a result of said transfer?
3.	How many employees in consequence of the abolition of said positions were retired from the service in Ottawa: (a) on pension or superannuation; (b) without pension or superannuation?
4.	Were any employees retired from any other branches of the Interior department, and if so: (a) in what branches; (b) how many in each branch?


Charles Murphy: 1 and 2.
Administrative	
Accounts	,
Dominion Lands Administration	
Dominion Water Power and Hydrometric
Bureau	
Forestry Branch	
National Parks Branch	
Surveys Bureau	
National Development Bureau	
5.	How many employees were retired on the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission after an investigation, or reclassification by it in the affected branches?
6.	Upon whose recomendation were the other retired employees let out of the service?
7.	In making staff reductions were the instructions mentioned by the hon. the Minister of the Interior and appearing on page 718 of Hansard of the 20th April, and contained in the statement delivered to the house by the Hon, Minister, followed without any exception or departure?
8.	What departments, if any, have to date undertaken to create positions for the retention of employees of the Department of the Interior that have been let out, as mentioned in the letter of the hon. the Minister of the Interior, appearing on page 717 of Hansard of the 20th April, 1931?
Ottawa Outside Ortawa-Permanent (Full time and seasonal)
1	_
1 -S	165
-	10
-	282
-	3
-	1
3.	10, (a) 10, (b) answered by (a).	5. All retirements that have been made have4.	No, (a) answered by No. 2, (ib) answered been concurred in by the Civil Service Comby No. 2.	mission.

Questions
6.	Answered by No. 4.
7.	Yes.
8.	All departments will cooperate with the Civil Service Commission


ISSUERS OP RADIO LICENCES
Mr. TAYLOR:: 1.	Is it a fact that persons permitted to issue radio licences in Ontario, under the Department of Marine, must be recommended by the government member or the defeated government candidate?
2.	If so, who are those permitted to issue licences in the riding of Norfolk-Elgin?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	No.
2.	C. Yanpatter, Aylmer, Ont.; Alfred L. Rogers, P.M., Aylmer West, Ont.; Allen & Butcher, Aylmer, Ont.; Smith & Venus, Delhi, Ont.; A. R. Hotson, jeweller, Delhi, Ont.; J. W. Bannister, Delhi, Ont.; E. C. Spragge, Port Burwell, Ont.; C. H. Kaufman, Port Bur-well, Ont.; S. H. Armstrong, Port Burwell, Ont.; A. M. Wicker, Westinghouse and De-Forest-Crosley Sales and Service, Port Dover, Ont.; M. Thompson, Port Dover Coal and Supply Co., Port Dover, Ont.; J. N. Schilz & Son, Port Dover, Ont.; Geo. A. Mace, The Radio Store, P.O. Box 435, Port Dover, Ont.; J. D. Caley, Port Dover, Ont.; Thomas D. Pierce, Port Rowan, Ont.; W. Howey, Port Rowan, Ont.; W. H. Jewell, St. Williams, Ont.; F. H. Ryerse, Simcoe, Ont.; Martin Bros., L. Martin, Esq., Simcoe, Ont.; W. R. Manthe, Box 373, Simcoe, Ont.; W. Kirkwood, 25 Kent St., W., Simcoe, Ont.; J. B. Jackson, Ltd., Simcoe, Ont.; Gibson Motor Sales, Simcoe, Ont.; B. W. Anderson, Box 156, Simcoe, Ont.; W. H. Abbey, Box 75, Simcoe, Ont.; R. E. Clunas, Springfield, Ont.; Mott Bros., Waterford, Ont.; Tench Bros., service garage, Waterford, Ont.


STE. GENEVIEVE-DE-BATISCAN RELIEF WORKS
Mr. DESROCHERS:: 1.	Did the government advance certain sums of money to the corporation of Ste. Genevieve-de-Batiscan, in the county of Champlain, Quebec, for certain works to be made by virtue of the Unemployment Relief Act, 1930?
2.	If so, is the government aware that this parish compels every labourer or workingman, employed on said works, to pay to the municipal fund of said parish, the sum of one dollar from each pay that he receives, along with a written promise signed by each workingman in this respect?
3.	If not, will the government inquire into this matter?
4.	If the above mentioned facts are found to exist, will the necessary steps be taken, so that the money so retained by the municipality may be returned to said workingmen?


Mr. GORDON:: 1.	Under the Unemployment Relief Act the province of Quebec has agreed to pay 25 per cent, the Dominion government 25 per cent and the municipality of St. Genevieve-de-Batiscan 50 per cent of an expenditure of $6,000 for roadwork for the relief of unemployment in the municipality mentioned. No payments have been made by the Dominion government.
2.	No.
3.	Yes.
4.	Yes.


EPHREM RENAUD
Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	WaR one Ephrem Renaud, of St. Eustache, Quebec, recently liberated on parole from the St. Vincent de Paul penitentiary?
2.	If so, what was the length of his sentence, and how long was he detained in said penitentiary?
3.	By whose recommendation was he liberated?


Richard Bedford Bennett: This question was
allowed to stand yesterday. It involves a matter of policy. Under the former administration questions of this kind, involving the exercise of a prerogative on the advice of a responsible minister, were not permitted to be asked. If it is the wish of the house that this rule should be changed, that is another matter, but from my reading of the authorities this is not a proper question to ask.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Dropped?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: In'the absence of the
hon. member for St. James, I should like to ask that the question stand.


Pierre Édouard Blondin: Stands.


NEW CARLISLE, QUEBEC, LIGHTKEEPER
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was an investigation held before J. G. Billingsly, lightkeeper at New Carlisle, Quebec, was dismissed, and if so, by whom and when was said investigation held?
2.	Who has been appointed lightkeeper?
3.	What is his salary?
4.	On whose recommendation was the appointment made?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	J. G. Billingsly was dismissed for neglect of duty on a report of the superintendent of lights as a result of inspection of the light on 19th August, 1930.
2.	John Crozier.
3.	$100 per annum.
4.	He was appointed by direction of the Minister of Marine.
Questions


FAUVEL LIGHTKEEPER
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Was an investigation held in the case of Azuella Poirier, lightkeeper at Fauvel, Bona-venture county, Quebec, and if so, by whom and with what result?
2.	If a new appointment has been made, who is the new appointee, and by whom was he recommended?


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	Yes, by Mr. Alphonse Garon whose report is receiving consideration.
2.	No new appointment has been made.


MONTREAL HARBOUR COMMISSION
Mr. BOUCHARD:: 1.	Is the Montreal harbour commission negotiating the purchase of the Vickers shops at Montreal?
2.	If so, by whom were the negotiations authorized, and for what purpose?
includes Geographical Section G.S., Historical Section, Asst. Director of Signals and Cadets.
Also includes officers formerly employed under Master General of the Ordnance.
2. March 31, 1914, 3; March 31, 1931, 7.


ST. SULPICE ICEBREAKER
Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	What was the total amount paid for the erection of an icebreaker at St. Sulpice, Quebec, in 1930: (a) for materials; (b) labour; (c) total cost of construction?
2.	What was the name of the foreman of said works?
3.	What was the amount paid to him as salary?


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	(a) $1,516.73; (b) $2,481.50; (c) $3,99853.
2 and 3. Mederic Lacombe, August 18 to September 16, $75; J. E. Robitaille, September 16 to November 15, $175.


Mr. DURANLEAU:: 1.	I am informed by the harbour commissioners of Montreal that the answer is in the negative.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


NATIONAL DEFENCE HEADQUARTERS
Mr. NEILL:: 1.	What was the number of officers employed
at the National Defence headquarters, in Ottawa, on the following dates and under the following headings:	(a) on March 31, 1914;
(b) on March 31, 1931; General staff, Adjutant General's staff, Quartermaster General's staff?
2.	What was the number of officers regimentally employed at headquarters on these respective dates?


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: 1.
March 31, 1914:
General Staff	 8
Adjutant General's Staff	 18
Quartermaster General's Staff	 6
Staff of the Master General of the
Ordnance	 10
Inspector General's Staff	 2
Military Secretary	 1
Total
March 31, 1931:
General Staff	 22*
Adjutant General's Staff	 16
Quartermaster General's	Staff	
9Employed under Deputy	Minister. ..	2Total	
49


Mr. SEGUIN:: 1.	What was the total amount paid for the erection of an icebreaker at St. Sulpice, Quebec, in 1929: (a) for materials; (b) labour; (e) total cost of construction?
2.	What was the name of the foreman of said works?
3.	What was the amount paid to him as salary?


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	(a)	$2,879.28;	(b)	$1,195:95;	(c) $4,-
075.23.
2.	Hector Grenier.
3.	$235.


BONAVENTURE POST OFFICE
Mr. MARCIL:: 1.	Has a vacancy been declared in the post office of Bonaventure, Quebec, and if so, for what reason?
2.	Was an investigation held, and if so, by whom and for what reason?
3.	If the postmaster has been dismissed, would the department refund the amount paid monthly by him for a guarantee policy while he was in office?


Mr. SAUVE:: 1.	Yes. Postmaster found guilty of active political partisanship.
2.	Yes, by Mr. Gerard Simard on account of charges of political partisanship having been made against postmaster.
3.	The Department of Insurance advise that if the policy referred to is one of civil service insurance, the insured may:
(a)	continue to pay the premiums and enjoy all the benefits under the policy; or,
(b)	exchange the policy f'or a policy of paid-up insurance for a reduced amount, or,
(c)	surrender the policy for its cash value.

Questions
IMMIGRATION, 1930-31 Mr. LUCHKOVICH:
1.	How many immigrants were admitted to Canada January 1, 1930, to January 1, 1931?
2.	From what countries were they admitted?
3.	What was their racial origin? (Whether German, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, etc.)


Mr. GORDON:: 1, 2 and 3. See the statement attached. Statement of Immigration to Canada, by Racial Origins, from January 1, 1930, to December 31, 1930.
British Isles-
English	 17,069
Irish	 4,862
Scotch	 8,903
Welsh	 875
Total	 31,709
Other Races-
Albanian	 32
Arabian	 5
Armenian	 27
Austrian	 201
Belgian	 329
Bohemian	 11
Bulgarian	 353
Croatian	 600
Czech	 246
Danish	 1,184
Dutch	 1,110
East Indian	 80
Esthonian	 83
Finnish	 2,749
French	 424
German	 10,401
Greek	  530
Hebrew	 3,702
Icelandic	 25
Italian	 1,104
Japanese	 217
Jugo-Slav	 491
Lettish	 33
Lithuanian	 612
Magyar	 3,279
Maltese	 16
Montenegrin	 3
Moravian	 5
Negro	 136
Norwegian	 1,049
Persian	 1
Polish	 4,968
Portuguese	  5
Roumanian	 245
Russian	 1,017
Ruthenian	 8,045
Serbian	 191
Slovak	 2,595
Spanish	 6
Spanish American	 1
Swedish	 1,022
Swiss.. ..-	 257
Syrian	 67
Turkish	 8
Total	 47,465
From the United States.. ..	25,632
Grand Total.. ..	104,806


ROSS RIFLE FACTORY . BUILDINGS
Charles Gavan Power: What are the details of the expenditure of a sum of $26,000 voted in the supplementary estimates of the session of 1931 under the heading of Removal, Ordnance Stores from Ross rifle factory buildings, Quebec-(Governor General's warrant of November 27, 1930), $26,000?


Mr. SUTHERLAND:: Main Building Ross Rifle Factory:
Removing stores from main building and fitting up Mann store
and Citadel casemates to accommodate ordnance stores	$6,250 75
Payment to firms and individuals for trucking	 840 01
Freight on stores shipped to other ordnance depots	 3,269 79

Immigration Building:
Alterations and fitting portions of building as ordnance stores	 4,159 77
Connaught Barracks:
Alterations to provide accommodation for a portion of the ordnance stores. 1,488 68 Test Range:
Cost of materials purchased for construction of temporary test range at Little river necessitated by removal of buildings, etc. from test range at
Ross rifle factory site	 2,100 00
Deakin Building:
Removal of machinery and vehicles from Deakin building to Valcartier-Amedee Demers-contract price	 4,950 00

Motions jor Papers


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-PASSES
Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Have railway passes been issued by the Department of Railways and Canals or the authorities of the Canadian National Railways, to Mr. H. G. Boulay, defeated candidate in the county of Rimouski?
2. If so, for what reason and on what account ?
3. Is Mr. H. G. Boulay being employed, either by the Canadian National Railways or the Department of Railways and Canals, or any other department, either as an investigator of the political activities of railway employees and other civil servants, or as a special agent or detective, or in any other capacity?
4.	If so, what emolument or salary, including travelling expenses, has he received to date?


Mr. MANION:: The answer to the first
part of this question is, no, because it would be against the law for either the Department of Railways or the Canadian National Railways to give passes. The question is, therefore, hardly in order. We have not broken the law. As regards the last half of the question, the answer is, again, no.


Mr. YENIOT:: The answer is quite satisfactory.


Robert Gardiner: Before you leave questions, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Stewart) whether it would be possible for him to give replies to Nos. 5 and 7, which relate to his department. I see no reason why they should remain on the order paper. [DOT]


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: I understand
that these questions have been answered in part by the Prime Minister. They do not come exclusively under the Department of Public Works. However, I shall see that the information that properly comes from and appertains to that department is forwarded in due course.


MOTIONS FOR P.APERS COMPENSATION FOR SLAUGHTERED ANIMALS
Mr. TETRAULT:: For a copy of all documents, letters and correspondence, in connection with indemnities to be paid by the federal government for slaughtered animals in the province of Quebec, under the system of reserved zones, since the establishment of said system; also a return showing the number and the average indemnity of the slaughtered animals by counties, and the average indemnity per head of cattle ranging from the age of one, two, three and over, for registered animals and cross-breeds.


Mr. WEIR (Melfort):: I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that this motion be allowed to stand.
Motion stands.
[Mr. Sutherland.!


COMMUNICATIONS FROM SASKATCHEWAN GOVERNMENT
Mr. MOTHERWELL:: For a copy of all petitions, resolutions, letters, telegrams and other communications and documents, received by the Prime Minister, Secretary of State and any other member of the government, from the Saskatchewan government or any member thereof, since January 1, 1931.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does the hon. gentleman think that all these documents are properly producible?


William Richard Motherwell: The motion refers more particularly to resolutions and petitions-


Richard Bedford Bennett: There are a great many
of these petitions.


William Richard Motherwell: I am referring to
the petitions and resolutions passed by the legislature and handed on by the Premier.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The other day I explained to the hon. gentleman that a number of these were in exactly the same form, and in some instances the government of Saskatchewan was the medium through which they were sent. Anything that is of a public character received by the various departments we will bring down, but we do not want to duplicate what is already down.


William Richard Motherwell: If the Prime Minister would let it stand I should be glad of an opportunity to discuss the matter with him.
Motion stands.


PENSION TRIBUNAL
Charles Gavan Power: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, or instructions, sent by the registrar of the pension tribunal or the chairman thereof, or under the direction of either of the pension tribunals or any member thereof, and for a copy of all letters, telegrams or other communications sent to the registrar or chairman of the said pension tribunal by any member thereof or by instructions of any member thereof.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We should have a clear
understanding about these matters. To answer a notice of motion covering all the papers in the world is surely not what is intended. If the hon. member would be good enough to look at the terms of the motion-


Charles Gavan Power: Is the Prime Minister referring to^ No. 6?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes.

Unopposed Motions jor Papers


Charles Gavan Power: At the request of the hon. member for Antigonish-Guysborough (Mr. Duff), I was going to ask that it stand.
Motion stands.


DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE- APPROPRIATIONS AND EXPENDITURES
Mr. ROBERGE:: For a return showing the total amounts appropriated during the first session of 1930, either in the main estimates or in any supplementary, to the Department of Trade and Commerce, and also a return showing the total amount of such moneys as were expended, by provinces.


Richard Bedford Bennett: This is one of a long
series of questions. This government cannot undertake to prepare, antecedently to the time prescribed by law, the Auditor General's report. It is certainly its duty, in answer to this order, to prepare a list showing what the expenditures are. But certainly the law does not contemplate, nor do the traditions and customs of this house contemplate, that we should anticipate the Auditor General's report and show the details of these expenditures. I take it that what is meant is, first, a statement showing the amount appropriated for the Department of Trade and Commerce, and secondly, the expenditures made by the provinces out of that amount.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Mr. VALLANCE (for Mr. McPhee):: For a return showing the total amounts appropriated during the first session of 1930, either in the main estimates or in any supplementary, to the Department of Pensions and National Health, and also a return showing the total amount of such moneys as were expended, by provinces.


FLOWER, N.S., POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. TOTZKE (for Mr. Ralston):: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, telegrams, petitions and other communications to or from the Postmaster General and any other ministers, minister, or official of the government, and to or from any member of parliament or other persons or person, with reference to the service or fitness or otherwise or relating in any way to the dismissal or proposed dismissal of Leo Thibeault, postmaster at Mayflower, Digby county, Nova Scotia.


DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE-APPROPRIATIONS AND EXPENDITURES
Mr. BEAUBIEN:: For a return showing the total amounts appropriated during the first session of 1930, either in the main estimates or in any supplementary, to the Department of Justice, and also a return showing the total amount of such moneys as were expended, by provinces.


DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR-APPROPRIATION S AND EXPENDITURES
Mr. BUCKLEY:: For a return showing the total amounts appropriated during the first session of 1930, either in the main estimates or in any supplementary, to the Department of Labour, and also a return showing the total amount of such moneys as were expended, by provinces.


JUDIQUE SOUTH, N.S., POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. ILSLEY (for Mr. Urquhart):: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, telegrams, petitions and other communications to or from the Postmaster General and any other ministers, minister, or official of the government, and to or from any member of parliament or other persons or person, with reference to the fitness or otherwise or relating in any way to the dismissal or proposed dismissal of John X. Campbell, postmaster at Judique South, Inverness county, Nova Scotia.


DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFEN CE-APPROPRIATIONS AND EXPENDITURES
Mr. WEIR (Macdonald):: For a return showing the total amounts appropriated during the first session of 1930, either in the main estimates or in any supplementary, to the Department of National Defence, and also a return showing the total amount of such moneys as were expended, by provinces.


DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES-APPROPRIATIONS AND EXPENDITURES
Mr. VENIOT (for Mr. Dug):: For a return showing the total amounts appropriated during the first session of 1930, either in the main estimates or in any supplementary, to the Department of Fisheries, and also a return showing the total amount of such moneys as were expended, by provinces.


SKINNER'S POND-BOAT HARBOUR
[Stage Direction]
Mr. MaoLEAN:
For a copy of all letters, correspondence, reports, telegrams, tenders, received from or passing between any party or parties, person or persons, Department of Government, engineers, or others, regarding the building of a boat harbour at Skinner's Pond, Prince Edward Island, during the season of 1930 and 1931.
[Stage Direction]
Economic Research-Mr. Stevens

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, May 4, consideration of the motion of Mr. Speakman that immediate consideration be given to the establishment and maintenance of a national council of social and economic research.
Hon. H. H. STEVENS (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: Mr. Speaker, the motion
before the house, which was presented so ably the other day by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) and supported by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), is one of those motions which perhaps result in a great deal of good, in that they bring to the attention of the house matters of importance for consideration, but which at the same time present difficulties in the way of giving immediate effect to the suggestions contained therein. I should like to compliment the hon. member who presented the resolution on the moderation of his language and on the thoughtfulness of the major portion of the suggestions presented by him. In one or two respects I find myself not quite able to follow him. I should like to suggest to the seconder of the motion that I think by the speech he delivered he must have aroused in the minds of hon. members a consciousness of sufficient reasons for not accepting the motion, and it will be my duty briefly to discuss the matter from this standpoint.
May I first, however, address a few remarks the resolution itself. The resolution con. 'is of several statements, in some measure purporting to be statements of fact, and then it invites the house to resolve in a certain way. I desire to point out to the introducer of the resolution that I cannot agree with the statement made in the first paragraph, which reads as follows:
The problem of production has been largely solved, assisted greatly by the application of scientific methods and the results of organized technical research.
I cannot follow my hon. friend in that because, while great progress has undoubtedly been made in recent years, and particularly in the years during and subsequent to the great war, in the way of scientific research and in the speeding up of production by the introduction of modern methods, mechanical and otherwise, it would be folly, I think, on the part of the house or of any body of industrialists or of any commercial community or of any country, to rest upon its oars and say

that the question of production had been solved. The question of production has undoubtedly been greatly advanced. It might be profitable for a moment for me to digress and to draw attention to what this country has been doing in common, I think, with nearly every other civilized country in the world, along the lines of scientific industrial research.
Some years ago the Research Council Act was passed. This was based upon an examination by a committee o-f the house, in 191" or 1918, of the question of scientific industrial research, and by this act a research council was set up for the purpose of advising the government on scientific and technological methods affecting the expansion of Canadian industries and the utilization of the natural resources of Canada. Those are the broad general principles upon which the legislation is based. It particularizes by conferring on the council power:
To promote the utilization of the natural resources of Canada.
Well, I would hesitate to say that that particular part of the research council's effort had been completely, or even measurably achieved. I believe that in this respect great progress has been made and an excellent foundation has been laid, and that we can look for some very excellent results in the future. I recall a number of researches which have been carried out successfully by the research council and with great benefit to the industry of Canada. I have particulars of these researches under my hand, but I do not wish to weary the house with a recital of them at this time; I may do so later when the estimates dealing wfith that department are before us. But I desire to emphasize this point, that it would be folly on our part to say that in this respect the question had been disposed of or solved. The research council is also to direct its efforts to-
-improving the technical processes and methods used in the industries of Canada, and of discovering processes and methods which may promote the expansion of existing or the development of new industries.
This matter is in its very early stages, I might say its initial stages. A general effort is being made and considerable progress has been achieved in formulatng schemes of cooperation with industry, private corporations, and so forth, and it is hoped that ultimately substantial results will follow. Then there are the questions of utilizing waste products and the determination of standards. I wish to direct attention for a moment to the determination of standards and methods of

Economic Research-Mr. Stevens
measurement, including length, volume, weight, mass, capacity, time, heat, light and so on. In this direction we have not gone very far. For instance, with respect to all our electrical standards we depend upon standards fixed in the city of Chicago. It is hoped and expected that as time goes on the bureau to whom has been committed this task will set up standards that are purely Canadian and that, while coordinated with the well-known and established standards of other countries, will at least be Canadian standards established by and for Canadian interests. But there again it is a work that is under way and still far from having reached ultimate achievement. There is also the great question of determination of standards of materials used in construction, such as cement, plaster, reinforcing steel, and all that sort of thing. Here again the work is in its infancy, but it is being carried forward step by step. There is a long list of other powers conferred upon the research council, but I shall not weary the house by detailing them. I desire simply to emphasize this point: we must not for a moment think that by the establishment of this research council we have, as the resolution intimates, largely solved the question of production. Y hat we are doing and what we [DOT]have done is to establish a foundation upon which we hope to rear a superstructure that will compare favourably with what has been achieved by the most progressive countries of the world in this important field of scientific research. The resolution proceeds:
Tire problem of distribution, with the kindred questions of purchasing power and the exchange values of agricultural and other commodities, together with their relation to the growing problem of unemployment, are still unsolved.
Well, I confess-and my hon. friend will take this observation kindly, I know-I confess that sometimes I get a little weary of the mere statement of great economic problems. It is so simple and easy to throw into the arena of parliament or 'before the public a statement of a problem, but it is a vastly different thing to come forward with definite, clear-cut suggestions for its solution. We have here such problems as this, "the kindred questions of purchasing power." This problem has been before parliament, brought particularly by some of my hon. friends opposite, every session for the last ten years. It does not follow that we should not strive to solve it, but it is one that involves world conditions. It is a problem that involves the inter-activities of nations the world over, and while undoubtedly study must be given to these things, I question whether any advantage will
be derived from setting up now, in addition to the powers that already exist, a new body for the study of that question.
Then we come to another clause which states:
This-
That is, these things that I have intimated.
1-can best be done at the instance of the state and by men of scientific training.
To the latter part I am offering no objection. I think we are all agreed that men of scientific training are undoubtedly best able to cope with any great economic problem; but to say that this should be done at the instance of the state is one of those utterances which, to my mind, merely tend to shelve the question. I think my hon. friend quoted scripture the other day, and while I hesitate to embark upon that field, I recall an utterance by a prophet statesman of old who used these words:
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
In my estimation the progress of the world, the steps forward in science, industry and art, have all been on a basis of "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little." There is not the short cut that is so often claimed in the solution of these problems by merely shuffling them off on the state. Hot long ago I saw a telegram from a certain interest in which they propounded some very difficult problems, and then they suggested that the federal government should take it upon their shoulders and by some unknown method the whole thing would be solved. Suggestions of that kind are constantly being made. I would say to my hon. friend in all kindness that I do not think it is much of a contribution to the solution of a problem merely to say that this can best be done at the instance of the state. Neither, of course, would I wish to leave the impression that I think the state has no responsibility at all; before I am through I shall demonstrate this point more clearly. I do, however, challenge the practice of merely, stating the problem, and saying it is the duty of the state now to solve it.
The part of the resolution which is active is now reached:
In the opinion of this house, the government should give immediate consideration to the establishment and maintenance of some organized body for this purpose which body might be known as the National Council of Social and Economic Research.
In the first place, as regards the matter of "immediate consideration," we could agree to

Economic Research-Mr. Stevens
that at once; we could say we shall consider it, but that is a play upon words. But if what is meant is the immediate appointment, establishment and maintenance of an organized body, what force is there in the suggestion? Let me point this out: in the service of the state to-day, in the department over which I happen to preside, the Department of Trade and Commerce; in the Department of Public Works, in the Department of External Affairs, over which the leader of the opposition presided until a few months ago, and in several other departments, are officers of the state probably as well qualified to study and deal with these questions as any man you could get outside of the employment of the state. So far as the government is concerned, at the present time we feel that we are bringing to bear upon these problems, to quote my hon. friend's words, the trained minds, economists, that are at present in the employ of the state. May I say that I have been pleasantly surprised at the splendid qualifications manifested by many of those men when you place before them the different problems which from day to day confront a government. They are highly trained, highly competent. We are disposed as a government to approach these questions with the assistance of those trained officers of the state.
It may be permissible for me to pause for a moment to say this: I believe in Canada there is growing up within the ambit of the civil service a body of trained officials who will take their place beside the best officials of any other country with which I am acquainted. I am not at the moment claiming credit for this government, the previous government, or other governments, but since I came into parliament twenty years ago, I have seen tremendous progress in the stabilization and standardization, if I may so use that term, of the efficiency of officers of the government. It would, I think, be wise economy on the part of the state to utilize the services of those men, within the ambit of the powers we already have and without the establishment of any special body.
I want now to deal briefly with a few of the arguments that have been advanced. My hon. friend, dealing with the question who should tackle this great problem, said it should be the government, or, through the government, some organized body appointed by them. I have already referred to that, and I shall not labour the point; but I should like to draw attention to the fact that there is a difference between the duties of the government as applied to industrial and scientific

research and the sociological problem of equitable distribution. There is quite a difference between the functions that are called into play with respect to these problems.
Mr. 'GARLAND (Bow River): That is the trouble.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes, it is the trouble. In the first instance, research has to do with taking this great estate that we call Canada and making out of it the best that we can, using its resources, directing its energies as far as possible along practical and material lines; but the moment you enter the sociological field, you enter the realm of the individual rights of one man as against those of .another and, if I might use the term, individuality comes into the problem. It is going to be a very difficult thing for any group of scientists, whether inside the government employ or outside, and body of economists or sociologists, to determine some plan that cannot or will not be completely wrecked, -by what? By the peculiarities and idiosyncrasies of the individual. Therein is where my hon. friends, and particularly the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, are weak in their positions. Therefore I would hesitate to advise the house to organize a group of persons outside of the house to deal with the sociological side of this great question.
My hon. friend made certain suggestions in regard to the question of the type of the council, but I thnlc a moment's thought will show the uselessness, shall I say, of a body such as he mentioned. He suggested one representative from each branch of commercial activity. I have had a good deal of experience in seeing groups or individuals representing different classes of thought in commercial and industrial life endeavour to work together, and it has been a pretty serious and difficult matter to get them to pull together to any degree at all. My hon. friend I think will recognize that. I at once question the suitability as well as the effectiveness of a group such as he suggests.
Then he makes the very simple suggestion that they should come to some conclusion. That is the sort of language which I would again point out is so often used, and yet is so abortive-to come to some conclusion, to pitchfork a problem into the hands of representatives of this, that and the other class, and ask them to come to some conclusion. I think we would do very much better if the government of the country, recognizing its responsibility, would direct the trained minds within its own employ, and tackle the prob-

Economic Research-Mr. Stevens
lems which are immediately before us, certainly keeping in mind the broad question of world economics, because they are trained to do that, and are better equipped to do it than any other class of men in the country. But again, I say, we cannot see the advantage of turning the matter over to a body of individuals such as is suggested.
My hon. friend also raised the questions of transpiration, foreign trade, and a study of the Russian system. I wish to say a few words in regard to that now. I shall leave the remarks of the mover of the resolution (Mr. Speakman), and turn my attention briefly to the remarks of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woods-worth) who seconded the resolution. A few moments ago I said something to this effect, that the speech of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre would suggest to the minds of the members of the house reasons why it would be unwise to accept the resolution. I say that for this reason: As presented by the mover, the resolution was comparatively moderate; but as elaborated by the seconder it amounted virtually to the suggestion that we should adopt the principles lying behind the Russian Soviet system. The speech of my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre was indeed, in my estimation -and I followed him carefully-calculated to leave that impression. I am not saying he is wrong, but I do say this, that I do not think that was in the mind of the mover of the resolution. I do not think that such is in the mind of many who would support the resolution, but it does indicate to us what we are faced with if we accept the resolution. That is the point I wish to make.
Very early in his remarks the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre suggested that this commission be appointed to investigate the entire economic system. Let us pause for a moment and think of what that means
to investigate the entire economic system.
I have been reading economic works for thirty-eight years, and I have gone through a large number of them; not perhaps as many as my right hon. friend the leader of the opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King) and a few others here, have read, but still I have gone through a great many. I have read them and studied them and thought about them a great deal, and to my mind anybody who would undertake an investigation of the entire economic system, limiting it even to Canada, would enter upon a task which could not in a lifetime be pursued to the point where a useful conclusion could be arrived at. Morever, long before such a study could be fully entered upon, the rapidity with which
industrial and commercial conditions vary the world over would necessitate such changes that the results of their earlier investigations would have to be abandoned because they would be out of date. To my mind such broad theorizing as this militates against the proposal of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, and the very many otherwise intelligent suggestions he has to make.
Then there is the suggestion of the mobilizing of the brains of the country. Nobody objects to the mobilizing of brain power. I know that a great many people are very fond of saying that the brains of the country are not mobilized in parliament; I shall not emphasize that on account of being a member of some years' standing, but we have mobilized the brains of the country, so far as material resources will permit us to do so, within the ranks of the present employees of the government. Let us use these; we can use them, and we intend to use them. Let us use this brain power which is already at our disposal rather than step out in a vague and indefinite way to mobilize the brains of the country. Let my hon. friend bear this in mind-and it is worth bearing in mind at all times when considering matters of this kind-the brains that are now engaged in our large industries are making their contribution toward the solution of the problems of this country. The brains that are now engaged in our universities in studying economic problems are giving their meed of service to the solution of these problems, and they are probably doing it better in the universities than they could do it in the employ of the government. The brains that are given freely to public service all over this country, in municipal councils, legislative assemblies, parliament, and elsewhere, are being applied to the solution of these problems just as the brains of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre are being applied, in his own way, to their solution. The phrase "mobilizing the brains of the country" is more or less meaningless, particularly when it ignores entirely the present mobilization of great mental powers within the government service.
My hon. friend in passing also used the sweeping phrase, "centralized planning." I am going to propound to my hon. friends, particularly in that comer of the house' and perhaps to the right hon. leader of the opposition, this suggestion.: If you took steps to-day to draft a centralized plan, what is the first thing you would be confronted with? The Combines Investigation Act. Last week and this week I have been studying a certain phase of our export trade. I have been giving it



Economic Research-Mr. Stevens
study for some months, and I am trying to bring it to a focal point. I shall not say what it is at the moment, because that is mot necessary. But certain suggestions arose out of the study of this question by the best brains that could be brought to bear upon it. They were not mine, by the way, because I came along only incidentally. The best brains in that branch of industry and among those most competent to advise with regard to it were mobilized, and what did we find? We found that to achieve a certain end we would be confronted wuth the Combines Investigation Act, because that act prevents'the coalescing of various industries into a unit, which it calls a combine in restraint of trade. Without a doubt the trend in world trade to-day is for industries or branches of industries to get together with the intention of making stronger and more concentrated impacts upon the markets to which they wish to direct their trade, yet the moment they do that they are confronted with this act. I suppose my hon. friend would say, "All right, repeal the act." I would point out to him, however, that The Combines Investigation Act is one which has been cherished by the group of people who are now advocating the centralization of industry and trade. When I use the word "group" I do not refer to that particular body of men with which my hon. friend is associated, but to numbers of people throughout the country.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not wish to interrupt my hon. friend, but I think it is hardly accurate to say that the Combines Investigation Act prevents large combinations. In addition to evidence of the existence of a combine there must be proof that it has operated or is likely to operate against the public interest, that it results in the undue enhancement of prices, prevents or lessens competition or otherwise restrains or injures trade or commerce.
Mr. STEYF.NS: I quite agree with my right hon. friend. I am trying to make it clear that it is easy to say, as my hon. friend saad the other day, that there should be advancement in centralized planning. But when one attempts actually to plan some such action he is confronted with the possibility of coming within the ambit of that act, and in the case I mentioned there is no doubt that such was the result.
My hon. friend quoted from a book. I am going to follow him in one or two of his quotations, because I do not think it is right to let the impression go abroad that this new effort in Russia, or experiment as he calls it,

is the utopian scheme it is portrayed to be.
I want to make the point clear that I am not condemning the effort being made in Russia. So far as those efforts contribute to the happiness, the comfort and the elevation of humanity I wish them success. I think however this parliament and country before accepting many of the statements advanced ought t'o ask the question, "At what cost?" My hon. friend particularly emphasized the fact that the editor of the book, The Challenge of Russia, was a former international secretary of the Young Men's Christian Association. He states therefore that his work ought to carry more weight than that of an ordinary person. There is no doubt that the book is an excellent one. There are thousands of such books. I have waded through quite a number, and am profoundly interested in the movement. However, may I read one quotation read by my hon. friend, and add a few words immediately following his quotation which he conveniently left out.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: May I suggest that I was confining myself to the particular aspect of the five year plan, and in that connection I read a few quotations. I am not accustomed to "conveniently" leaving out anything.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I should be the last person to give offence to my hon. friend or to any other hon. member of the house.
Mr. BEAUBIEN [DOT] What is the name of the book?


Henry Herbert Stevens: The Challenge of Russia, by Sherwood Eddy. I shall leave the words of my hon. friend to the judgment of the house and withdraw the word "conveniently." My hon. friend quoted from page 66 the following words:
Thus far the yearly goal of the plan has not only been equalled but exceeded in most branches of industry, so that some of the goals set for 1933 had been surpassed by October, 1930.
My hon. friend finished his quotation at that point, and then carried the quotation to another page of the book entirely. There is nothing very significant about the words I am about to read, but I just wish to quote them in order to give the proper weight to the quotation of my hon. friend. The paragraph read by my hon. friend ended with the words:
.... had been surpassed by October, 1030.
Then follow these words:
In two fields the plan fell short at the beginning, and will probably be uneven in its
Economic Research-Mr. Stevens

accomplishments. At the close of the first year the decrease in cost of production was only 5 per cent instead of the scheduled 7 per cent; while labour productivity was increased 14-5 per cent instead of the 17-3 per cent called for by the plan.
There is nothing significant in these words, but they do help to place the proper weight on his quotation. The way he left it one might be under the impression that so rapid was the expansion and so successful had been the plan that by October, 1930, it had surpassed the program scheduled for 1933.
Then, another quotation given by my hon. friend was to my mind more misleading than the one I have just cited. From page 77 my hon. friend quoted the following words:
Real wages are already 16 per cent above those of 1913, with additional benefits and social services amounting to 27-3 per cent of the total payroll, in reduced rents and prices, free vacations, medical service, etc.
I well remember the intonations with which my hon. friend read the words "free vacations, medical service, etc." At once the impression was left that it was a utopian idea. In the same line I find the following words:
Professor Paul Douglas estimates that American workers earn about three and a third times those of Russia, and that their standard of living is approximately three and a half times as high.
The point I make is this:	when an impassioned appeal is made in this house stating that we should step aside and consider things occurring in Russia, at least let us give to the house and country a thoroughly well balanced statement of the cost.
At page 78 in the same book I find another quotation I would like to read:
Vacations on full pay ranged from twelve days to one month. Other compensation, insurance, social service, rent, heat, light and food at reduced prices amount to 37 per cent added to the workers' wages. Every man works four days out of five and has seventy rest days a year.
That was my hon. friend's quotation, and again we have a utopian condition presented. However, here are the words following:
Allowing for these benefits, the average net compensation per worker was a little over $600 a year. Food and housing conditions for Russian workers are still often primitive, but no workers care less for their condition or will put up with more hardship.
Here the writer is referring to the Russian worker.
The strain and self-sacrifice imposed upon the workers by the five-year plan would not be tolerated by independent, individualistic, Anglo-Saxon workers, ....
I wish to place a few facts before my hon. friend and before those who cite the example
of Russia as a reason why we should embark upon centralized plans, organized mobilization of brains, and so on. In the first place, there are in Russia about 150,000,000 people. It is a country composite in geographical formation and with tremendous undeveloped natural resources. There is no place in the world to-day, including Canada, which offers such opportunities for exploitation. I am not confusing the term "exploitation" but use it in its economic sense. No place offers such opportunities as Russia for exploitation of natural resources for the benefit of the people. Further, there is no place in the world where the masses of the people are in such great need of economic advancement as they are in Russia. Having in mind the conditions in China and India, my last statement may be considered a little too strong. Russia is in an entirely different position from Canada. In this country there are from 9,000,000 to 11,000,000 people; pending the coming census we do not know the exact number, but we will say there are 11,000,000. The area of Canada is slightly less than that of Russia. Our resources do not equal but com= pare favourably with those of Russia, and are of a somewhat similar character. In Canada however there is not the necessity to work for the next fifty years to catch up with the rest of the world. In Russia there is a mass of people who have not enjoyed the benefits which are commonplace to us. We read about the establishment of an electric light system in Russia, and are told that about $100,000,000 is, being spent on electrical development. In a country like Russia such an expenditure is not extraordinary; for Canada however it would be considered large. Why compare conditions in Canada, which has an independent and individualistic people, with those of a country which never had independence or individuality in the practice of its citizenship? The conditions are not comparable at all. Consequently I say to my hon. friend and to those who advance these arguments that it is but a misleading of the public mind, particularly at this time, and a misleading of those who unfortunately are out of work and are suffering-


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: I hope my hon. friend is not suggesting that I was- arguing in that way. I make this point for the sake of clarity.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I made that very clear
previously, and I will make it doubly clear at this time. I opened my remarks with the statement that I thought the hon. member for Red Deer was very moderate and very fair in his presentation of the resolution.
i312

Economic Research-Mr. Irvine


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am quite willing to take the brunt of it.	[DOT]


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Order. The
hon. gentleman's time has elapsed.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I will conclude with a
sentence. I also said that I thought the speech of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre really carried with it the answer to the speech of the hon. member for Red Deer. I am sorry to say to my hon. friend, who undoubtedly has given the matter a great deal of thought, that the government feels it would not be wise to carry out his suggestion as to the immediate establishment and maintenance of an organized body for this purpose, but rather suggests to the house that the government will direct the activities of its own trained civil servants, through the proper departments, to a genuine effort looking to the solution of these problems.


Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Wetaskiwin):: Economic Research-Mr. Irvine
every agency was being employed to keep our society in step with the requirements of the times.
Let me, then, emphasize that the individual cannot start out on his own initiative and bring forth any knowledge that will be of very much use to any government. In the first place, as I have said, if his idea happens to be more radical than is thought to be good, it will be discredited; in the second place he will likely follow one little line of thought and not go into the question comprehensively; next, he cannot make his living, and therefore can only work at the problem fitfully and not adequately; and, finally, if he tries to force his idea or experiment on the people he will probably be sent to prison very quickly. So the individual cannot tackle a problem of this kind. Not even our professors in the universities can do so. No doubt they are doing excellent work, but we are not using their work as it should be used, nor are we giving them the opportunities that they should be given. So this job must be done by government agencies.
Let me say next that I think there ought to be a place for the social engineer, for the student of economics and sociology. The nation has provided no means of conserving and using the best thought even of the political economists that we have. I would say that the attitude of the minister would not be calculated to encourage them in any further research work. There are plaudits and emoluments, and rightly so, for explorers and discoverers in every other branch of science, but for the seeker in the field of economics and sociology there is only anathema. There is glory for the person who makes two blades of grass grow where but one grew before. Should not there be a little bit of glory for the man who can distribute two bushels of wheat where now only one is being distributed? The problem is now one of distribution and nobody is really working on that problem. This is one task for such a council as is proposed. We ask them that parliament provide the opportunity for such a work as that. I feel sure if the minister had not been led astray by the Russian red herring, he would have adopted this beautiful mackerel. He went after something that did not belong to the argument, and if it had belonged to the argument I would probably have agreed with him. These things should not be mixed up at all. We ask merely for the consideration of the appointment of a council to do research work in the way of solving some of our economic {Mr. Irvine.]
problems. If we give an opportunity in this way, men will rise to embrace it. In the universities and colleges of this country there are many professors who will strive to qualify for such a position as that. It is true, of course, that social science is much more complex and difficult than other branches of science. Social science is all embracing, but if we fail in that science then all other sciences will fail, for ultimately their value must be estimated in terms of the social and human purposes for which they exist.
My hon. friend has quoted from a book on Russia. I want to conclude by making a reference to another writer on Russia, and when I speak of Russia, let me explain very clearly that that by no means argues that I want to establish Russian conditions in Canada. I do not. I wish to refer to, not quote, a statement in that book of Mr. Maurice Hindus, called Humanity Uprooted. He says there that we are at war with Russia. By "we" he means that all nations under the capitalistic system are at war with the nation that is under communism. He went on to say that this is a war of construction, not of destruction, and his inference was that the country which is the more constructive, that country which has utilized the natural resources and the fruits of the genius of men together to produce the greatest service to humanity, is the nation that will win this great war. Can it be expected that a country that adopts a laissez-faire philosophy, that allows things to drift, that is planless, can compete with a nation that has planned every move that it is going to make? In my opinion, as this war goes on between the Russian system and the capitalistic system, as the years go by, we shall discover that our capitalistic system will then not be what it is now and that the Russian communistic system will not be what it is now, but that each will copy the best of the other and probably both come to pretty much the same conclusion. But I insist that if we are afraid of being overcome by Russia, the only way to meet Russia is by intelligent planning, by securing the information required and by working on that information. We cannot win this great war of reconstruction otherwise. The only way to win this war is to plan; the only way to plan is to obtain knowledge, and the only way to obtain the necessary knowledge is through the means suggested by the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman). Therefore it is the duty and privilege of this assembly to vote for such a body.

Economic Research-Mr. Mackenzie King


William Lyon Mackenzie King: When the last
speaker rose, I was about to direct to the minister a question which perhaps would have elicited all that at the moment I wish to say on this subject. As I have listened to the remarks of my hon. friend I have become increasingly convinced that all that is asked for in the way of legislation by this resolution is already enacted, and will be found in an act of this parliament which has its place in the revised statutes. I also feel more than ever convinced that my hon. friends to my left should have directed their attention to the act and have asked the ministry to give to it the interpretation and emphasis which they think and which in agreement with their views, I think, is the right one, to be placed upon its provisions. The positive portion of this resolution, as has been pointed out, is that there should be-
Some organized body for this purpose which body might be known as the National Council on Social and Economic Research.
The abbreviated title of such a council would be the National Research Council, and that is precisely the body which was established by act of parliament some years ago. I have in my hand a copy of the revised statutes in which is to be found the Research Council Act, 1924, section 1 of which reads:
This act may be cited as the Research Council Act, 1924.
As hon. members have been discussing the question, I have been looking through this act to see whether its clauses are not sufficiently broad to include everything that they have suggested, and I think they are. More than that, I believe, had there been time to look at the original debate, one would have discovered that the intention was that its provisions should be broad enough to cover research into social and economic questions as well as into questions which are purely industrial. The Research Council Act of 1924, revised statutes, provides first of all for a committee of the privy council which is to be known as the Committee of the Privy Council on Scientific and Industrial Research. My recollection is that the government appoints under that designation a sub-committee of the cabinet. Such a committee was, I know, appointed under the late government, and I assume that the government opposite has, since it has come into office, appointed such a committee. If it has not, there is still plenty of time to do so.


Mr. GEARY:: May I ask the number of
the chapter?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Chapter 64.
Then there is an advisory council which is a large body called the Honorary Advisory Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, consisting of fifteen members. These members are appointed by the administration and it is their duty to arrange for the investigation of any subject coming within the scope of the act which is assigned to the council by the committee of the cabinet known as the Committee of the Privy Council on Scientific and Industrial Research. The definition of the duties of the council will be found in section 6 of the act. In a sentence, they are as follows:
The council shall have charge of all matters affecting scientific and industrial research in Canada which may be assigned to it by the committee.
Social and economic questions are just one class of questions which may be scientifically investigated. Economics is as much a science as any other science that may be named. The cabinet have full powers under this act to refer to this committee any question that would come within the scope of the words: "All matters affecting scientific and industrial research in Canada."
Looking at the resolution specifically, one discovers that what the mover, if I interpret his mind aright, evidently has particularly in mind, is that up to the present this body, this research council, has been engaged so exclusively with one aspect of research, namely, that which has to do with the production of wealth, that another body with similar powers ought to be appointed to deal with another aspect, namely, the distribution of wealth and with the questions of exchange. My point is that production, distribution, and exchange are all branches of the one science of political economy, or as it is more frequently called to-day, economics, and that this council has just as much power to-day to deal with the questions of distribution or the questions of exchange as it has to deal with any phase of production. What it may do depends entirely upon the direction the government of to-day wishes to give to its duties.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: Has such
direction at any time ever been given to the National Research Council?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That I cannot say. But what I am saying is that the act is there. It does not require another act to
1318	COMMONS
Economic Research-Mr. Mackenzie King
permit of a like investigation of social and economic problems. What is required in order to have the kind of investigation conducted which my hon. friends are asking should be conducted is that the government of the day should take advantage of the statute to that end.
Assuming the resolution were to carry this afternoon, and that the government were to proceed to draft an act to give effect to it, the government could not do better than to put on the statute book the statute that is already theTe. It therefore seems to me wholly unnecessary to ask for the enactment of such a measure to achieve the objects which my hon. friends have in view.
In order that I may be quite specific in reference to the applicability of the provisions of the act to the matters mentioned in this resolution, let me quote one paragraph of the resolution which refers to a certain class of questions, questions of agriculture, which are in the minds of my hon. friends and then refer to the act itself:
Whereas, the problem of distribution, with the kindred questions of purchasing power and the exchange values of agricultural and other commodities, together with their relation to the growing problem of unemployment, are still unsolved, and demand immediate attention with systematized investigation and scientific study.
There my hon. friends are drawing attention to the problems of agriculture as related to unemployment and to certain other subjects.
Now let us look at the act. Section 10 of the Research Council Act reads as follows:
Without thereby limiting the general powers of the council conferred upon or vested in it by this act, it is hereby declared that the council may exercise the following powers, namely:-
Here follows a series of sections, seven in all, and the seventh section reads:
Researches, the object of which is to improve conditions in agriculture.
The very thing which my hon. friend's resolution says demands immediate investigation.


Alfred Speakman: A part of what we
want.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, but the section reads, "without thereby limiting the general powers." No specific thing need be set out. It says, however specifically, "researches, the object of which is to improve conditions in agriculture." If one reads through the act carefully, one will discover that the act is broad enough to include the investigation of any problem which has to do with production, distribution or with exchange.

In Palgrave's Dictionary of Political Economy, which is a standard and recognized authority, it is stated quite clearly that, as a branch of science, economics is as much concerned with exchange and distribution as it is with production, also that it is concerned as a science with all those social problems. I read from page 678:
As to the scope of this science-it would be generally agreed that it is a branch of a larger science, dealing with man in his social relations; that it is to an important extent, but not altogether, capable of being usefully studied in separation from other branches of this science; and that it is mainly concerned with the social aspect-as distinct from the special technical aspect-of such human activities as are directed towards the production, appropriation and application of the material means of satisfying human desires, so far as such means are capable of being exchanged.
As hon. members know, the study of economics, as such, is a more modern development of the old study of political economy, which had come to be looked upon as too exclusively concerned with wealth, as generally understood, and not sufficiently concerned with human needs and the social problems pertaining thereto. I was interested in looking in this same dictionary to see what definition would be given of the words "political economy." I find that while at the beginning of the article the definition is in accord with what I have just said as to the old-fashioned idea of political economy being a hard-hearted science, the modern developments of political economy have made it in the minds of scientists and others into a more human, or more humane, science, if such a thing is conceivable. Indicated in this article, under the heading, "Recent development of political economy," I find these subjects listed:
Economies as concerned with currency;
Economies as based on the element of labour;
The gradual appearance of the ethical element ;	_	_
Historical, and the gradual rise of the principle of freedom with new aspects of state control.
There will be found the very words that have formed the kernel of most of the arguments that have been presented by those who are sitting at the other end of this chamber; they are also the words appearing throughout the resolution, which speaks of matters relating to currency, to labour, to state control, and a larger industrial and personal freedom.
If I am correct in saying that all of these subjects come properly within the science of economics, then I think I am wholly right when I say that an act which gives to the government of Canada power to conduct scientific research, and which does not limit
MAY 6, 1931	.	I-519
Economic Research-Mr. Mackenzie King


James Shaver Woodsworth: Does the committhat research in any way, but specifically goes on to indicate how it may be broadened out to include agricultural problems, and the like, which will affect employment-that such an act provides everything that is asked for by hon. gentlemen to my left in the way of legislation necessary to enable the state to do the very thing which they wish to have done. That being the case-I was rather surprised that the minister did not draw attention to that fact. On the other hand I can understand that if he is not interested, or if the government is not interested in the investigation of social problems, there may have been a special reason why he made no mention of the act; but I hardly think that is the explanation.
I do believe it is true that up to the present time the work of the Research Council has been very largely concerned with investigations which have been of particular service to the manufacturers of this country, and to those who are concerned in developing certain of the great natural resources of this country. I remember, however, that some years ago-if I am not mistaken it was about 1919-the research council did send out communications to different bodies in this country and to individuals asking for subjects of investigation which they as a council or committee might consider, and they prepared a report in which the various subjects which would properly come under this act were summarized. I am speaking only from memory, because I have not had an opportunity of verifying what I am saying, but I believe that my hon. friends will find in that summary made by the research council itself, the assignment of social questions as one specific branch which in the opinion of its members the committee was perfectly free to undertake. At any rate the council has already taken up the consideration of 'certain agricultural questions specifically, as such. I thank the minister for the list of committees with which he has just supplied me. Among others there were the following:	A conference on
animal diseases, an associate committee on cereal rust, an associate committee on coal classification and analysis, an associate committee on field crop diseases, a committee on Trail smelters smoke and an associate committee on tuberculosis.


Henry Herbert Stevens: And a committee on
honey.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, an associate committee on honey. Then there is an associate committee on grain research.
tee on tuberculosis deal with humans or cattle?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot say.


An hon. MEMBER:: Both.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am informed it deals with both. The point I am endeavouring to make is that there is no reason why any subject which is an important social problem of the day should not be investigated by a body of experts operating under state auspices and under the powers given to the government by the Research Council Act, if the government wishes to have that particular phase of social problems investigated.


Edward Joseph Garland: The right hon. gentleman has read to us a list of productive effort rather than an examination into distributive effort.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That bears out my statement that up to the present time research council work has been confined to that phase of economic science which is concerned with production. To a very limited extent only has it been concerned with those phases of economic research which have to do with exchange and distribution. I agree with my hon. friend that there is no greater problem in Canada to-day than that of unemployment. At the moment I do not wish to make references of a party nature which I might quite properly make at this time as to the vastness and importance of the problem. I think the fact has been established that the causes of unemployment are very wide, and that they are by no means local, or, wholly attributable to any single government or political party There are great economic causes underlying the problem of unemployment just as there are like causes underlying other existing social conditions. Not only do I think the government might but I think under the present circumstances it ought to take advantage of this legislation in the statutes of Canada and have the research council bring together some of our leading economists in the universities or others of the type mentioned during the debate on this resolution and allow those men to give special time and thought to this great social problem, allow them to put in a year's work or more on the question of unemployment and means of coping with it. I would make that as a practical suggestion and one which I hope will appeal to my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, when he has had time to study the subject generally.
Economic Research-Mr. COMMONS
Maclnnis
In conclusion I would repeat that it seems to me that my hon. friends instead of asking for more in the way of legislation should point out the powers the government already possess and that they should insist that with the legislation already enacted the government should now direct its energies into a field which thus far has been neglected and hereafter not so exclusively to fields which already have been too exclusively explored.


Mi. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver South):: Following three such eminent speakers and astute politicians I am in rather a difficult position if I am to make any showing whatever. I should like to begin my few remarks in support of this resolution by congratulating the mover of the resolution (Mr. Speakman), on the general terms in which it has been worded. Again I would congratulate him upon the very reasonable way in which he explained the purport of the resolution. On the other hand, I was surprised at the attitude taken by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens). Particularly, the minister stressed the remarks in reference to soviet Russia made by my hon. friend the member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth). I was greatly surprised at the remarks of the minister in view of the fact that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre definitely stated when making reference to Russia that he was drawing attention to that country only to show what could be done by organized planning. I cannot see any particular harm in that. The fact of the matter is that, whether we wish to admit it or not, at the present time the eyes of .the world are focused on Russia. A few weeks ago Sir Frederick Williams Taylor on his return from Europe made the following statement to the press: " Keep your eyes on Russia." Following the return of the Minister of Trade and Commerce from Europe after the Imperial economic conference last fall the Vancouver Sun contained an interview. This article is dated Ottawa, December 31, 1930, and is as follows:
Declaring that Russia's five-year plan was succeeding all along the line and that Canadians were doing their country a distinct disservice by pretending otherwise, Hon. H. H. Stevens .Minister of Trade and Commerce, arrived here at noon to-day after two months m London attending the Imperial conference.
Air. htevens is persuaded that one of the biggest economic problems for the world and tor Canada to consider is that presented by the steady come-back of soviet Russia, which was buying incredibly large quantities of goods in the United Kingdom and in the United States and paying for them.

I suppose the peculiar part about it is that she was paying for them. Then the interview continues:
As an exporter, Russia, which is in the same latitude as Canada, can and does sell practically all of the natural products as Canada, and soon will also be selling many of the articles that Canada manufactures and exports.
Russia will soon be a live competitor oi Canada, not only in wheat and coal but in many of the Dominion's other main commodities.
It is not surprising that my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre should have referred to Russia when the Minister of Trade and Commerce made reference in the terms I have quoted. The resolution in my opinion merely emphasizes the philosophy of most hon. members in the particular group to which I belong. In this Dominion there are various schools of thought which advocate the carrying on and organizing of the nation's business along various lines. As everybody knows the Labour group believes in the evolutionary process in human society. Consequently when we see an evolutionary process taking place and reaching the stage where a crisis is imminent we believe some steps should be taken to meet such a situation.
May I endeavour to illustrate my thoughts in this way? All hon. members who have had any experience in raising poultry will know that if fertile eggs are secured, put into an incubator and subjected to a heat approximating 103 degrees, at the end of twenty-one days baby chicks will hatch. The Labour party feels that is the way human society should go. Our friends the communists, who are in favour of a revolution, believe that if you increased the heat a few more degrees you might get the chicks in fifteen days, but the only thing that would really happen would be that you would cook the eggs. My friends the conservatives-and I do not mean the party but those people of a conservative type of mind as exemplified possibly by my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens), believe that you can keep those chicks alive in the eggs after the twenty-one days are over, or if not, that possibly you could catch them and put them back in the shell after they came out. We believe that conditions are progressing towards a crisis in society, and just as you would prepare your brooder houses and other apparatus in order to care for your chicks, we believe it is the primary function of the government to prepare for contingencies, not only those which are already here but those which may arise later.

Economic Research-Mr. Maclnnis
If there is anything which is outstanding in connection with our present economic crisis it is, if I may use the term, the unanimous confusion of thought in regard to what causes it. I have gathered from various sources the opinions of many people who are supposed to be leaders in our industrial, financial and other activities to-day. I will give a list of those people and then I will give you their suggestions as to what has caused this world wide economic depression, together with their remedies for the situation. First there is Lord D'Abernon, famous British economist; J. M. Keynes, noted economist and chairman of the National Mutual Life Assurance Society of England; J. Beaumont Pease, chairman of Lloyd's Bank; Sir Harry Goschen, chairman, National Provincial Bank of London; Right Hon. Reginald McKenna; Harold Cox, noted British economist and writer; the financial expert of the London Times; J. F. Darling, director of the Midland Bank of England; Sir Herbert Holt, president of the Royal Bank of Canada, and several others. Some of the reasons given by these people for present economic conditions are: Gold hoarding by the United States and France; the unwillingness of the United States and France to make foreign loans; shortage of monetary gold, and inadequacy of world distributing machinery. I am unable to understand what that term really means. If it means the inadequacy of the medium of exchange, as far as the great masses of the people are concerned, I quite understand it, but if the word "machinery" means our transportation systems, then it has no meaning whatever.
Some further reasons given by prominent people are immobility of labour and interference of trade unions, and paternalist government. If there is any trade union at the moment which can interfere with the economic activities of the country, I should like to belong to that union. Other reasons are: disequilibrium of the gold standard; high prices of manufactured merchandise; tariff walls and anti-dumping measures; widening of the gap between wholesale and retail prices and interference with the easy flow of capital between countries. There seem to be just as many different causes as there were individuals giving them, but the point I wish to make is this: If gold hoarding by the United States and France is a cause, how did it come about that gold gravitated to those two countries? What caused the cause? If the inadequacy of world distributing machinery, using the word in the only sense in which it can be used, is a cause, what brought about
the inadequacy? This reminds me of a lecture I heard by a medical man, and after hearing my hon. friend from Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine) speak on this point I am not sure whether he was just as wise in this connection as he is in most of what he says. However, this medical gentleman, in giving an address on disease, said that rheumatism was caused by diseased tonsils and that heart disease was caused by rheumatism. He stopped there; he did not tell us what caused the diseased tonsils, and it is the same with these people. They tell us that the high prices of manufactured merchandise caused the present depression. Who is responsible for the high prices of manufactured merchandise? Is that not something which might be investigated by this committee?
Let us go on and recite a few more of the reasons given for the present economic depression. There was a gentleman from Great Britain who came over to this country not long ago; I refer to Sir Arthur Balfour, former president of the Federation of British Industries. Speaking at Hamilton, I believe, recently he is quoted as follows:
Sir Arthur Balfour noted that the world's population had increased by ten per cent in the period from 1923 to 1928. During the same period, however, he said that there had been an increase in agricultural production of sixteen per cent. The production of raw materials had increased thirty-five per cent, while the output of manufactured products had gone up forty per cent. You see,-he is reported as saying.-there are not enough people to consume the products.
I would imagine that such a statement was made by Sir Arthur Balfour after a very nice luncheon with people of his own kind. Certainly he could not meet a gathering of unemployed in any part of this Dominion and say there were not enough people to consume the products which were being manufactured. I believe this is something this research committee could investigate. Why is the condition of the people worse to-day than it was at any time between 1923 and 1928, when there has been an increase in agricultural products of sixteen per cent, in raw materials of thirty-five per cent and in manufactured products of forty per cent, with an increase in population of only ten per cent? It seems to me this is a problem for the research committee, that is, if the very efficient employees in the various government departments have not already investigated and reported on the matter.
Then we had another gentleman who came to this country at the request of the Dominion

Economic Research-Mr. Maclnnis
government to carry on an investigation. I refer to Sir Josiah Stamp. He is quoted as having said:
For Canada, a short wheat crop might prove an act of God which would start her forward again.
Surely here is a situation which someone or some organization should investigate. There is material enough here to keep this research council working for a great many days, I should think.
Now, I quote from a speech made by the Prime Minister on December 30 in the city of Regina, I believe. He said:
The marketing of the wheat crop will still leave our agriculturists without a sufficient competence for the winter months, which will find them when the spring comes without the seed for next year's crop. I cannot make up my mind why this country, between the lakes and the mountains, should experience the depression; why people who have lived here for years should now find themselves without any accumulation of goods, sometimes without the bare necessities of life.
With all this confusion, and all this want of understanding with regard to the distress that prevails in this Dominion to-day, is it not really time that some committee of the kind proposed in this resolution should be appointed? Is it not time that we established such a research council to investigate and try if possible to bring about a solution for our problems? That, I think, was in the mind of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens) when he spoke last year at the special session of parliament. At page 320 of Hansard of that special session I find the hon. gentleman reported in reference to a sug-* gestion made by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Mackenzie King) in connection with the return of people to the land as a solution for the problem of unemployment. The Minister of Trade and Commerce at that time said: For many years eastern Canada and the Pacific coast poured twenty or thirty thousand men annually into the western provinces during harvest time. Did any men go west for that purpose this year? The answer is that practically none went.
Mr. Vallance:	They rode in free.
Mr. Stevens:	Practically none went, and
they are riding out free also. Why?
Mr. Donnelly:	Because of the combines.
Mr. Stevens: Certainly, because of the introduction of modern machinery, combines and new harvesting machinery, which is doing away with the need for extra men. How then, in the face of this economic fact, can that solution mean anything? I jwould say to the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), who is not just now in his seat, that I think at some appropriate time the house can very well discuss this problem of the displacement of man power by machinery. 
Perhaps this is not the time, but it is an economic problem which is challenging the attention of the world, and I want to say now that it must have the attention of this parliament sooner or later. The fact is that machinery is displacing man power on the farms of the west, and whether the right hon. gentleman likes it or not, whether he puts his tariff on a free trade basis or not, these things are happening and will continue to happen and the men will have to go somewhere to get food.
I regard this, Mr. Speaker, as being in line with what we have suggested in this resolution. Let it be understood in the first place that, as the hon. member for Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine) has pointed out, this is only a fact-finding body. It does not offer a program nor evolve a policy for the government to follow. It would find facts in relation to various matters brought before it, and if these facts appeared reasonable I presume that action could be taken in correlating them with different activities in order to improve conditions. If it submitted such facts the government would no doubt be in a position to take action. But it would not be necessary that action should be taken unless the government felt satisfied that the information which was disclosed warranted it.
Within recent years considerable progress has been made along many lines, the effects of which we are now feeling. Speaking the other day, the Prime Minister said he could not understand how it was that everyone seemed to want the government to do this, that and the other thing in the way of social service. The fact is that with the industrial revolution, as the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) pointed out on Monday last, man was taken away from the land. About the year 1831, it was estimated that 90 per cent of the world's population were about that time living on the land, but when the industrial revolution came man was separated from the tools of production; and later on he was separated from his skill as a workman. Now he is not only separated from the tools of production and from his skill, but he is separated from the job itself by the automatic machine. Here, therefore, is a problem that needs to be met, a situation which would seem to come very well within the purview of such a council as has been suggested in the resolution of the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman).
Speaking of the revolution that has occurred in agriculture, an interesting article appeared on October 30, 1930, in The Commerce of the Nation, written by Senator \\. A. Buchanan, which article I think is well

Economic Research-Air. Maclnnis
worthy the attention of all hon. members of this house. The hon. senator begins his article thus:
Western agriculture has undergone a revolution. Unemployment is the result. Canada is in the throes of the dislocation which accompanies all revolutions.
Following that, he discusses the operation of a section of land of 640 acres at Stirling. Alberta. He states:
During the past two years the owner has sown 320 acres to wheat, averaging more than 30 bushels to the acre-10,000 bushels of wheat each year. He has sown the wheat in the spring, has cultivated his summer-fallow for the next year's crop, has harvested the crop and hauled it to the elevator; and he has performed every operation without an hour's help. With liis own labour, and with the use of modern machinery, he has been able to operate a section of prairie wheat land, produce more than $10,000 worth of wheat each year, deliver it to the market and do every operation connected *with the task himself.
He goes on to examine all the labour-saving machinery on the farm. I do not wish to suggest for a moment that there has not been some employment in the production of that machinery. But the fact is that the mobilization of labour in any particular place by the use of machinery and motor-driven machinery is displacing labour much more quickly than we can at the present moment provide for.
At the special session of parliament last year we made an appropriation of $20,000,000 to take care of unemployment. A part of that $20,000,000 was made available to the two large railway companies to pay the carrying charges on certain purchases which they really did not need to make at the time, but which was made in order to relieve the unemployment situation. But while the treasury was making that contribution what were the railways themselves doing? A few days ago a friend of mine who is in a position to know told me .that where until recently 42 men were engaged in the Canadian National Railways Turcotte shop at Montreal in cleaning engines, through the introduction of machinery their number had been reduced to four. While we were thus helping the Canadian National Railways, the management, by the introduction of more modern labour-saving machinery, was displacing men possibly faster than we could take care of them. And the Canadian Pacific Railway has been doing pretty much the same thing. In the Vancouver gun of October 20, 1930, appears the following news item:
A revolutionary change in operating system is planned by the Canadian Pacific Railway throughout the west in the next few months.
Locomotives on passenger trains will carry their loads as far as 1,200 miles in one run, instead of about 125 miles as under the present divisional system, it is announced by Mr. W. M. Neal, general manager of western lines.
Time saved at divisional terminals, where it no longer will be necessary to change engines, and the saving of locomotive maintenance costs as well as in the reduced number of engines required are reasons for the change, Mr. Neal said.
The new system also will enable the railway company to make wider use of its latest and more powerful engines, now available in only limited numbers.
Decision to extend the long-run system from Fort William to Vancouver follows an experiment made by the Canadian Pacific Railway last spring, when an engine hauled a train 1,252 miles from Fort William to Calgary in scheduled time, and retraced this mileage with another train, also in scheduled time.
Under the new system it will be necessary to have only five motive power divisions against fourteen formerly in use, Mr. Neal pointed out. One engine, for example, will carry through from Fort William to Winnipeg; a second from Winnipeg to Calgary; a third from Calgary to Field; a fourth from Field to Revelstoke, and a fifth from Revelstoke to Vancouver.
Success of the long-run system already has been satisfactorily established on one district, where 30 engines now do the work of 51, Mr. Neal stated.
Surely in view of such conditions bringing about a still greater degree of unemployment, there is every reason for the establishment of a fact-finding organization to enable the government to plan and act intelligently.
Whether the government likes it or not, economic conditions are making it more necessary each year that it take a greater part in the economic life of the nation. This afternoon it was pointed out what the function of government has been in the past and what it is believed to be to-day, but that the government is not keeping pace with the times. We have not to go back vary far in history to find that in the British isles, where we get our pattern for parliamentary institutions, government at first was in the hands of the king and the barons, that the development of constitutional government was very gradual, and that it was not until quite recently that the working people came to take any part at all in governing the country, and consequently it is only since then that their interests have been given any consideration 'by those in authority. The function of government in England up to within recent years was to find "spheres of influence" and secure export markets for their manufactured commodities. Foreign trade was occasionally forced on reluctant nations by the aid of the army and navy, the militia was kept at home to look after the workers. That, I

Economic Research-Mr. Maclnnis
should say, until comparatively a few years ago was the prime function of government in Great Britain. To-day through the invention of labour-saving machinery more and more people are being out of employment and in every industrial country the government must of necessity take a closer and more active interest in the economic life of its people. The Minister of Trade and Commerce may say that already we are assisting research councils, but, I would remind him, these councils are not. working in the interests of the people at large, they are working in the interests of the various industrial corporations, and these are mainly concerned in making a profit for their shareholders; they have not got at heart the interests of this Dominion.


Henry Herbert Stevens: If the hon. gentleman will pardon me, I know he would not want to do a grave injustice to a very excellent institution which is only semi-governmental. He is entirely wrong in his statement.	.


Angus MacInnis: In the way my hon. friend interprets my statement I may be wrong, but I submit that in fact I am not wrong. When the research bureau makes any discovery it is passed on to our various industrial concerns, and they use the information not for the good of the country, but for the profit of their shareholders.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is not correct.


Angus MacInnis: If it is not correct I should like to know of one private organization whose shareholders are interested in forwarding the welfare of this country, that is, considering the country as an aggregation of individuals, and the welfare of each being given due consideration.
We all realize that we are going through critical times, As a matter of fact I think we all agree that possibly the government of Canada and the governments of the other countries of the world, have greater responsibilities to-day than ever before. I am quite sure that is true with respect to our federal government, and, speaking for the Labour section in this chamber, I say it is because we wish to help bring about the impending changes referred to with as little dislocation of industry and with as little suffering to the people as possible, that on every occasion possible we urge the government to take action and not wait until we have a crisis upon us that will possibly be altogether beyond our control. I am quite satisfied that that would not meet the wishes of some people, but it does agree with my views in regard to the 
proper organization of government. We have been twitted time and time again by speakers on the Conservative side of the house with not making suggestions, but it is rather strange that on the two occasions when we made specific suggestions, they were thrown back in our faces without any consideration whatsoever.


Edward Joseph Garland: I regret that the time at my disposal will hardly permit my analyzing the speeches that have already been .made in this debate. Let me, however, say at the outset that I regard the proposal of the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) as one of the most important that have been brought before the house in recent years. The proposal is not by any means a new one. It has been intimated time and time again in speeches made by hon. members in this corner of the house that a complete social and economic survey of this country is a vital necessity. It is answered by both the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens) and the leader of the opposition [Mr. Mackenzie King), that a broad interpretation of the existing act under which the National Research Council is constituted, permits of the very thing that we are asking for in this resolution. Well and good. If that be true, then they indict and condemn themselves for their inactivity in this regard. If the possibility for a full investigation into the economic and social conditions in this country exists, as they admit and, in fact, insist it exists, and if they have not, as they also admit, undertaken that investigation, they stand condemned out of their own mouths.
Has this matter been drawn to their attention recently? No later than last April I had the privilege of speaking in the house on the problem of unemployment and all that it involves. The leader of the opposition referred to that to-day and he submitted that it was the government's present duty-he said it in almost those words-to submit this problem for solution to the National Research Council. Last April I made these few humble remarks myself:
I say to the Prime Minister-
He is now the leader of the opposition.
-that until he and his colleagues appoint a body to make a survey of economic and social conditions, a commission capable of intelligently analyzing this situation, he has not taken any step in the direction of a real solution of this problem.
Some months later the light dawned upon him and he now submits to the government that they have to refer this question to the National Research Council. This interpreta-

Economic Research-Mr. Garland (Bow River)
tion, belated, it is true, may be accurate. It may be correct that the National Research Council has the power to investigate these matters, but we have no evidence from any hon. member who has spoken so far in this debate, that any such question was ever at any time referred for examination, analysis, and solution, to any scientific body in the country. On the contrary, what do we find? We find in this country, one of the richest on earth, vast and illimitable resources to which people so glibly and eloquently refer both in election speeches and otherwise; we find a mechanical and technical equipment second to none in the world in proportion to our size and population; we find electrical energy in enormous quantity and of priceless value; we find a class of workmen who are skilled, energetic, adaptable, as able and intelligent as any class of workmen in any country and in any age. In view of this there is no sound reason why there should be any poverty in Canada. There is no sound reason why there should be any unemployment in this country, and I am almost quoting the words of the leader of the government during the last campaign when I say that. Every man and woman in this country willing to work should be able to lead a life not only of security but of comfort and plenty, and even have time to develop culture.
What is the case? What have we got? We have hunger and poverty around us in the capital city of Canada as well as in every other city. We have men and women discouraged with the struggle of trying to make a living under the adverse system under which we operate. We have .people whose morale is being destroyed by the disappointment of every day that comes upon them, people underfed and undernourished, people whose vitality is being lowered, whose whole future outlook on life is being affected. We have to-day a system which not only has not solved the problems that it should have solved but, on the contrary, is pressing a growing mass of the people into further and further destitution. All that the resolution asks this house is that a special scientific body of some kind be appointed to examine into this condition of affairs, find out the basic factors causing this condition, and offer solutions. This parliamentary institution is wholly unfitted for that kind of work. Hon. members have such multifarious, petty little duties to perform that the average member has no time to make an exhaustive examination into economic conditions, much less submit a proposition, and, as the hon. member for Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine) has said, often when
they are submitted to the house, they are discounted as coming from faddists and cranks. But I am sometimes reminded when you have not a self starter, you have to have a crank.
The view that parliament is not fitted to examine into and give intelligent consideration to the basic causes of conditions as we have them, or to provide solutions, is not confined to hon. members in this comer. Even such a well known world figure as the Right Hon. Winston Churchill, speaking not long ago at a meeting of English industrialists, said that parliamentary bodies are practically useless for dealing with economic questions and in that regard should be superseded. He goes further and says:
At this stage we ought to have the proper machinery for considering great economic issues.
He goes further and says:
I do not think party machinery is going to do the job well.
That is only too true. Coming from a man of such well known party inclinations and partisan views, his words bear some weight. Let me quote the views of another internationally known gentleman, Mr. Owen D. Young who, speaking at the Lotos club in New York, expressed similar doubts as to the efficacy of political mechanism in dealing with a world economically out of joint. He said:
That our politics and our economics are in conflict everywhere in the world to-day, he said, is due to the fact that economics are necessarily international, while politics are predominately national, and increasingly so in every country.
That point has been emphasized by other speakers. Apart altogether from the present depression through which we are passing, this so-called cyclical depression that has visited its evil on all the world, a type of depression that has visited this world four times, there having been two major and two minor ones during this short period, there has occurred on the North American continent a depression thirteen or fourteen times since constitutional government was established here. Apart altogether from that, you have the technological causes of unemployment and depression. The hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Mac-Innis) has dealt with that and I need not elaborate it except to point out to the leader of the government or whoever is taking his place, and the leader of the opposition, that in the last few years nearly three million people have been displaced by labour saving devices in the industries of the North American continent. Yet the inventive genius of man is not equal to the task of absorbing

1326	COMMONS
Economic Research-Mr. 'Garland (Bow River)
that enormous and steadily increasing number . of unemployed. Apparently we have nobody definitely committed to the task of studying that problem and finding out what the causes are and what the remedy may be.	*
If you want to find other things to examine into, I might submit the single problem that the problem of Canada is not the problem of India, the problem of India is not the problem of England, the problem of England is not the problem of Germany; but they are all inter-related in some way or other. The problem in India to-day is the problem of a deliberate policy of demonetizing silver-at appalling piece of fraudulent banking policy Which has brought disaster on all oriental countries, and even on countries in the southern parts of this continent, a policy which has had its effect on the export business of every country in the world that ever did business with the orient. I remember the Right Hon. Arthur Meighen, speaking not long ago before the Canadian Press convention in Toronto, where he pointed out very eloquently and clearly to the press men, and to the whole country, that the wealth of a thousand million people-think of it, Mr. Speaker-has been cut in two by a deliberate cold-blooded callous banking policy on the part of the British authorities in their endeavour to force India on to a gold basis. May I say to my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Stevens) that his former leader is strangely in discord with the views which he expressed earlier in this debate this afternoon. The minister of Trade and Commerce took issue with the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman) upon the statement in the resolution to the effect that the problem of production had been largely solved, and he endeavoured to read into the resolution itself and into the utterances of the hon. member for Red Deer, an intention or an expression that was never at any time clear to anyone else in this house. The minister asked:	Would the hon. member have
industrial activity limit itself in its further progress? Surely no such intention has been expressed by any hon. member on this side of the house. Indeed, our whole hope is that we may be able to devise a distributive system that will absorb not only all that we produce, but all that we as human beings demand under modern standards of living. That is all we seek. The Right Hon. Arthur Meighen said in that speech to which I have just referred:

With a condition which approaches a superabundance of all things which should create happiness, thrift -would merely intensify the situation by lowering the consumption of commodities.
I submit that also to the leader of the government, who is an authority on thrift, for everybody else. Mr. Meighen said further:
Do not let us bow in eternal adulation of the leadership of those who have led us so far.
I wonder if he would like to come back some time. I wish he would.
Mr. LaVERGNE: I hope so.


Edward Joseph Garland: I do, too.
He was one of the finest debaters that ever stood in this house, and a man whose broadening views 'become apparent in utterances of -the type to which I have just referred. He says further:
How can we cure a condition of superabundance by refusing to absorb of that abundance? We just do not seem to be able to make available the surpluses of the world's goods which strike the eye at every turn.
I congratulate Mr. Meighen on his utterance, -and I submit that the Minister of Trade and Commerce might continue to follow in the footsteps of one whom he admired so intensely and so justly at one time.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I entirely concur in those views.


Edward Joseph Garland: I am glad
to hear that; I did not gather it from the hon. gentleman's speech. Dr. Jacks is a well-known economist, and I shall quote him because he presents, I submit, the condition in which this country and others now find themselves. My own words could not as adequately describe those conditions. Dr. Jacks says:
Whither mankind?

why are we asking this question to-day? I think we are doing so, not out of mere curiosity, but because we are getting anxious. We are not quite sure either where we are going or even where we are. We feel ourselves drifting-but whither? \Ve are like people on a great ship, full of treasure and of human life, which has lost its bearings in the night. The navigating officers are bewildered, the crew are getting mutinous, and the passengers, both first class and third, have got wind that something is wrong. Breakers ahead have been reported, and when we look over the side we see that -we are drifting. We are getting apprehensive about the future.
We have reason to be. Only the other day I heard one of the most eminent of living sociologists, Professor William MeDougall, say these words in public: "Western civilization is in imminent danger of collapse. Nothing but wise human effort guided by human science can prevent it collapsing." To which I would add

Economic Research-Mr. Garland (Bow River)
ray own belief that wise human effort, if it is sufficiently prompt, can prevent the catastrophe. Given that effort. I look with hope to the future: failing that effort, I feel sure we shall be on the rocks. We are drifting and there is a lee shore not far off.
No finer words could be used to describe the general economic and social conditions in. which this and other countries find themselves, and no better advice could be given to the government at the present time than to undertake now some definite planning for the future. But tjiey cannot plan, as the hon. member for Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine) so eloquently said, until they know what they are going to plan for; in fact, until they, know why the present conditions are.
What is the outlook, apart altogether from what Dr. Jacks has said? I take up a reputable paper, one to which even my hon. friends opposite can take no objection. Business Week, of New York, in a recent editorial said:
Business continues to crawl along the astonishingly flat trough that has lasted more than four months. Week to week, and even month to month, the movements are slight, sporadic, still insignifieent .... Moves for major international conference action to meet the emergency and check deflation are apparently at last developing around Governor Norman's visit, but further drift and delay are likely until a third winter of unemployment looms, so long as our official and financial economics emulates the ostrich, the original optimist.
The original optimist is particularly good. That is about all we have in this country, a lot of original optimists. They hope for the best without being willing even to look into conditions, much less to plan for a solution of them.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Would it not be necessary before any such examination of economic conditions could be carried out, to make a very careful survey of the situation?
That survey is now being made through the census staff, as rapidly as it can be made.


Edward Joseph Garland: I submit
that in so far as the census staff this year has been committed for the first time to an examination as to the extent of unemployment and the causes for it, in so far as the individual is able to tell the census official-you go to the average man who is unemployed and he will tell you that he is unemployed but he cannot tell you the cause of his unemployment; who can?-


Henry Herbert Stevens: There is not merely that, but the industrial investigations that accompany it.
22110-85}


Edward Joseph Garland: All the information that can possibly be secured by these additional inquiries by the census takers this year is in large part already known to the government. The government has already made estimates of the number of unemployed in this country, and has made an estimate of the condition of industry in this country with a view to tariff action. I do not think we can afford to wait till after the census is taken before appointing a body such as is proposed in this resolution. My answer to the minister's question is that most of that information the government already has.


James Shaver Woodsworth: We might wait
until after a tariff census before we undertake any increase in the tariff.


Edward Joseph Garland: That is
good. I wonder how that would suit hon. gentlemen opposite? I do not hear any loud approval, any strident applause or "hear, bear's" from those ranks at the present time.
In conclusion, I would ask the following question: If any one of the business men in this house, either to my right or opposite, were asked to go to a far distant country or far distant planet, if he could be sent there for the purpose of abolishing the insecurity of work, and if when he got there he found bursting granaries, fruits and vegetables rotting in the fields, farmers on the verge of bankruptcy, clothing factories, shoe factories and all kinds of factories either closed or working part time because those who needed the goods did not have the means to buy them, and those who were willing to produce the goods and ready to go to work could not be put to work; if he found outside the factories which were running on part time long lines of men poorly clad and under fed, workers simply begging for a chance to go back to work at pay requisite to keep themselves and their families from starvation; if finding that in the major part of the industrial centres he then visited the outskirts of the towns and discovered that in the most beautiful part of the country there were great, handsome, luxurious homes with attractive and spacious grounds and occupied by only a few people, a very small group in comparison with the total population-the owners of (be factories, the owners of the shops, the owners of the banks-living in mansions beyond the dreams of previous generations intent only upon enjoying life and devoted to the art of spending money, the art of wasting; if he found a small group, corresponding to the 603 people in Canada who pay income tax on
Privilege-Mr. Gobeil

850,000	a year or over, who were able to dispose of only a part of their incomes, and that the balance had to be put back into more industrial plants for the production of more goods which could not be bought by those who did the work of producing them,- if he found all that I wonder what hon. gentlemen would say about such an unsound condition of affairs. Yet a moment's reflection would show that that is exactly the position with which we are confronted to-day. In a sentence, we have six hungry men here and six loaves of bread there but we cannot introduce the loaves of bread to the hungry men.
Mr. LaVERGNE:	Was that not said on
the mountain about two thousand years ago?


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, May 7, 1931