1929-06-05

[Stage Direction]
Mr. C. G. POWER (Quebec South) presented the fifth and final report of the special committee on Dominion Elections Act and Corrupt Practices Inquiries Act.
Mr. SPEAKER:: As this report will be
published in votes and proceedings perhaps we might dispense with the reading of it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yes.


Hewitt Bostock: By unanimous consent. PARLIAMENTARY RESTAURANT


Mr. L. K. LAILAMME (Mont-magny) moved:: That a message be sent to the senate informing their honours that this house has concurred in the first and final report of the joint committee of both houses on the restaurant, and requesting their honours to unite with this house in approval of the said report; and that the clerk of the house to carry the said message to the senate.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

Questions

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. STEWART (Minister of the Interior) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 343 to amend the Yukon Quartz Mining Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. FERNAND RINFRET (Secretary of State) moved the first reading of Bill No. 342 (from the senate) to amend the Companies Act.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. PETTIT:: 1.	Is a government employee, being a disabled returned soldier, when called upon for medical examination by the Pension Board, docked any portion of his pay or salary on account of his having received allowances from the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establish-mant?	_
2.	If so, what departments follow this practice?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	No deduction is or has been made from the pay or salary of a civil servant on account of his receiving travelling allowances from the Department of Soldier's Civil Re-establishment or the Department of Pensions and National Health. No other allowances are paid in respect of medical examination of civil servants by the Board of Pension Commissioners for Canada. Prior to the 1st April, 1928, a civil servant while undergoing a period of observation or treatment in hospital enjoyed an income of $30 per month less than while at work. From the 1st April to the 31st December, 1928, his income while in hospital or at work remained the same, unless his pension exceeded compensation, when his income would be reduced by such excess. From the 1st January, 1929, he is granted his full salary plus any allowances to which he may be entitled by way of compensation.
2.	Answered by No. 1.


MINING CORPORATION-TAX EXEMPTION
Mr. McGREGOR:: 1.	What mining corporations, if any, in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, have been exempted by the government from taxation during the past three years?
2.	When was such exemption begun and for what period does it extend?
3.	Was such exemption given by order in council?
4.	Was the proposal to give such exemption from taxation submitted to parliament before being given?
5.	Is it hot a fact that such corporations, if not so exempted from taxation, would be taxed only on profits?


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: 1 to 4. Taxation is a provincial prerogative. By order in council dated the 13th December, 1910, provision was made that no royalty should be charged on the products of copper mining locations acquired under the provisions of the regulations for the disposal of quartz mining claims on Dominion lands in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, the Northwest territories and the Yukon territory, for a period of ten years-that is, up to the first, day of January, 1921. By order in council dated the 16th December, 1920, the product in copper of the mineral claims at Flin Flon lake in the province of Manitoba were granted an exemption from the payment of royalty on certain conditions for a period of ten years from the 1st January, 1921. At the time these concessions were granted it was not the policy to consult the province on such points. By order in council dated the 25th November, 1927, the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company, Limited and by order in council of the 10th September, 1928, the Sherritt-Gordon Mines Limited were granted, with the approval of the provincial government, exemption for a period of twenty years from the 1st day of December, 1927, from payment of royalty on products on a limited area of their holdings in the province of Manitoba provided smelters and reduction plants necessary for the development of the property are constructed and such products are treated therein.
5. Yes.


PENITENTIARIES-PADDLING AND SHACKLING
Miss MACPHAIL:: 1.	How many prisoners in Canadian penitentiaries were paddled in 1928?
2.	On whose authority was the paddling done in each case and by whom?
3.	How many prisoners in Canadian penitentiaries were shackled to the bar in 1928?
4.	On whose authority was the shackling done, and by whom?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	41.
2.	On the authority of the warden by a penitentiary officer under the supervision of the warden and surgeon.
3.	249.
Questions

4.	On the authority of the warden by a penitentiary officer under the supervision of the deputy warden or chief keeper.


HARBOUR COMMISSION, ST. JOHN, N.B.
Mr. JONES:: 1.	How many members comprise the board of harbour commissioners of the port of St. John, New Brunswick, and what are the names and addresses of the said commissioners?
2.	What is the term of their office?
3.	What is the yearly salary paid to each commissioner ?
4.	How much was paid to each commissioner for the past year as expenses, exclusive of salary?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Three. President, William E. Scully, Saint John, N.B.; commissioner, Robert T. Hayes, Saint John, N.B.; commissioner, Alexander McMillan, Saint John, N.B.
2.	During pleasure.
3.	William E. Scully, $4,000 per annum; Robert T. Hayes, $3,000 per annum; Alexander McMillan, $3,000 per annum.
4.	Hon. W. E. Foster (former president), $44157; William E. Scully, $423.80; Alexander McMillan, $85.


PENSION DEPARTMENT, REGINA-HEART AND LUNG EXPERT
Mr. IRVINE:: 1.	Who is the heart and lung expert attached to the Department of Pensions at Regina?
2.	When was he appointed?
3.	On whose recommendation was he appointed?
4.	What salary does he receive?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	Dr. John B. Ritchie.
2.	Dr. Ritchie was first appointed as medical officer of the Frank sanitorium, under the military hospitals commission, a predecessor of the Department of Pensions and National Health, on the 11th December, 1916. He was subsequently promoted to be medical superintendent of that institution and continued until December, 1918, when he was transferred as medical superintendent of the Bishop Pink-ham hospital, Calgary, under the Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment. He resigned that office in October, 1919. He was appointed chest specialist, with headquarters at the office of the department in Regina, in November, 1919.
3.	Dr. D. A. Stewart, medical superintendent of Ninette sanitorium, Manitoba, and Dr. B. H. Olson, medical superintendent of the Frank sanitorium, Alberta.
4.	$250 per month.


ROYAL CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE-TRANSFERS
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: 1.	How many members of the Northwest Mounted Police or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police were transferred from localities west of Port Arthur, Ontario, to localities east of Port Arthur, since 1914?
2.	What functions are the members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police performing in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta?
3.	What functions is it proposed or purposed that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police shall in future perform in these provinces?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.1914-1919	Nil
1920	 272
1924	 18
1922		 14
1923		 31
1924		 24
1925		 22
1926		 32
1927		 35
1928		 18
1929		 16
Total	482
2.	In the province of Manitoba-Enforcing federal laws and assisting in the enforcement of provincial laws in the northern part of the province around Hudson bay.
In the province of Saskatchewan-Enforcing federal laws and all provincial statutes in the province.
In the province of Alberta-Enforcing federal laws and assisting in the enforcement of the game laws in the northern part of the province, such as at Fort Chipewyan.
3.	There is no information at present which would indicate that there will be any change in the near future in the duties of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in these provinces, as above outlined.


SYDNEY AND LOUISBURG RAILWAY
Mr. BELL (Hamilton):: 1.	Is the Sydney and Louisburg Railway operating under a dominion charter?
2.	Who is the owner of the Sydney and Louisburg Railway?
3.	Are the rates of the Sydney and Louisburg Railway subject to the control of the Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, or to what control are they subject?
4.	Does the Sydney and Louisburg Railway benefit by the payments made by the federal government under the Maritime Freight Rates Act, 1927?
5.	What total amount has been paid to the Sydney and Louisburg Railway each year since the Maritime Freight Rates Act was instituted?

6.	Does the amount ot the fund paid to the Sydney and Louisburg Railway cover the traffic represented by the transportation of coal from the mines of the Dominion Coal Company for consumption at the plant of its allied interest the Dominion Iron and Steel Company?
7.	Would the refund payments also cover
traffic represented by the transportation of coal from the mines of the Dominion Coal Company to their own shipping piers for furtherance by water ?	_
8.	What amount has been to paid to the Dominion Coal Company by the Dominion Fuel Board covering bonus of one fifth of one cent (1/5 of lc.) per ton per mile on shipments of coal from Sydney transhipped by rail to Ontario points? Also on direct shipments by rail from Sydney to Quebec and Ontario points, both in accordance with order in council P.0. 539, dated March 30. 1928?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	No.
2.	The Dominion Coal Company.
3.	Yes.
4.	Yes.
5.	Six months ending December 31, 1927,
$150,40.8; calendar year, 1928,	$277,632.24;
calendar year, 1929, no payment yet made.
6.	Yes.
7.	Yes.
8.	(a) Nil; (b) nil.
The payment of 1/5 of 1 cent per ton per mile authorized by order in council of March 30, 1928, (P.C. 539) is paid to the railway companies transporting the coal and not to the operators or coal distributors.


STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES
Mr. TOBIN:: 1.	How much did the Dominion government
pay by way of steamship subsidies for services to British or foreign countries:	(a) in the
fiscal year 1921-22; (b) in the fiscal year 192728?
2.	To what countries are subsidized services now provided?
3.	To what countries does the Canadian Government Merchant Marine maintain regular steamship services ?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	(a) $751,757.76; (b) $248,107.10.
2.	South Africa, Brazil, Uruguay, Argentine Republic, New Zealand, Alaska and the British West Indies.
3.
From Atlantic
Regular sailings during tihe year:
To London, and Antwerp fortnightly in winter. ten-day service in summer.
West Indies:
From Montreal (summer). Halifax (winter)-Fortnightly passenger and freight service to Hamilton, Bermuda; Nassau, Bahamas; Kingston, Jamaica.
Questions
From Montreal (summer), Halifax (winter)-Fortnightly freight service to Kingston, Jamaica, direct; connecting steamer between Kingston, Jamaica, and Belize, British Honduras, operating on fortnightly schedule.
From Halifax and St. John (all year round) -Fortnightly passenger and freight service to Bermuda, St. Kitts, Nevis, Antigua, Montserrat, Dominica, St. Lucia, Barbados, St. Vincent, Grenada, Trinidad and Demerara.
From Montreal (summer), from Halifax (sumimer and winter)-Fortnightly service to Bermuda, Porto Rico, St. Kitts, Antigua, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Lucia, Barbados, Grenada, Trinidad, and Demerara.
Australia:
From Montreal (summer), from Halifax (winter) -Three-weekly service.
New Zealand:
From Montreal (summer), from Halifax (winter)-Monthly service.
To Brazil, Uruguay and Argentine, South America:	.
From Montreal (summer), from Halifax (winter)-Monthly service.
Interooastal:	.
Service between eastern and western Canada-From Montreal (summer), from Halifax (winter)-Monthly service.


HAHBOW EXPERIMENTAL FARM
Mr. GOTT:: 1.	What was the cost of operating the Harrow, Ontario, experimental farm for the year 1928?
2.	What returns did the farm make?
3.	Who is the superintendent of the farm?
4.	What salary is paid him?
5.	Has the government given consideration to the placing of the farm in charge of a Canadian citizen?


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	$21,801.23 (Fiscal year ending March 31,
1929).	.
2.	$8,676.50 plus the crop of Burley tobacco as yet unsold; which, however, has been processed and is in storage.
3.	Herbert Franklin. Murwin, from May 1, 1929.
4.	$2,220 plus house.
5.	No employee of the government was considered to possess the necessary qualifications for promotion to this position, and consequently the position was advertised, throughout Canada, copies of the advertisement appearing in the Canadian papers being sent also to a number of Americans known to possess the qualifications required. The Civil Service Commission found that no Canadian citizen, possessing the necessary academic
Questions

qualifications, together with experience in experimental work and knowledge of tobacco, made application. The only applicant who was properly qualified was Mr, Murwin, who, although an American citizen, had formerly lived in Essex county and had some knowledge of Canadian conditions.


BREAKING ANIMAL QUARANTINE-PROSECUTIONS
Mr. BELL (St. Antoine):: 1.	Did the Department of Agriculture within the last year prosecute in the courts a case of breaking of animal quarantine in the county of Huntingdon?
2.	If so, what was the result?
3.	What lawyers represented the department and what amount was paid to each?


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Wm. Morrison and Wm. Greer each were fined $25 and costs, the costs in the case of Wm. Greer being $28.80 and in the case of Wm. Morrison $30.20, or in default fifteen days in gaol. This conviction was appealed and judgment was rendered against the department on a technicality.
3.	Numa E. Brossoit, of Valleyfield, Que.
Amount of prosecution.. ..	$368 40
Amount of appeal	 363 20


$731 60 TUBERCULIN TEST RECORDS-HUNTINGDON
Mr. BELL (St. Antoine):: 1.	Has the system of keeping the records of the tuberculin test of cattle in book form in the Huntingdon area been discarded?
2.	If so, why?
3.	In the present test is there a check-up made of all animals previously tested?


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	Yes.
2.	A loose leaf, system has been substituted which relieves the veterinary inspector of copying out reports, thus saving time and taking up less space. It reduces the chance of error.
3.	Not unless certain conditions are found to exist,-
(a) If animals bear the health of animals branch eartags and pass the tuberculin test no further check is made; (b) If any reactors are found all animals in the herd are checked over and their identity established; (c) If any animals are found without health of animals branch eartags the whole herd is checked over, tested, then quarantined and held under quarantine until a second test is made at the end of 60 days.


DANVILLE POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. BELL (St. Antoine):: 1.	Is the postmastership of Danville, province of Quebec, at present vacant?
2.	If so, who is the temporary or acting postmaster of this office?
3.	Was the vacancy advertised by the Civil Service Commission, and when?
4.	What are the names of the applicants for the said postmastership, and who is the successful candidate?
5.	If the vacancy has not yet been filled, what is the reason for the delay?


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Alfred Raymond.
3.	Yes, from the 5th to 20th October, 1927.
4.	The candidates are:
Herbert Stewart Brown.
Melville Lyster Hall.
John Robert McLeod.
James Archibald McCallum.
Joseph Eugene Guilmette.
Louis Lafrance.
Maurice Lussier.
Joseph Masson.
Jude Thibault.
Herbert Harold Robinson.
William S. Dennison.
Joseph Aime Jutras.
Joseph Ernest Park.
No selection has yet been made.
5.	To obtain competent bilingual candidate.


GREAT LAKES LIFE SAVING SERVICE
Mr. COWAN:: 1.	Has the Department of Marine and Fisheries or any other department of the government made any investigation into the cost of providing and maintaining a life saving service on the great lakes, and especially on lake Superior?
2.	Has the Dominion of Canada provided any wireless or other life saving equipment on any of the great lakes?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1. The view of the Department of Marine and Fisheries for some time has been that the best protection it can give to the men who sail our sea coasts and inland waters, is (1) by providing them with the most up-to-date aids to navigation, accurate charts, lights, fog signals, buoys, radio, etc.; (2) by seeing that their vessels are safe and seaworthy and that they are equipped with adequate life saving appliances and that they are properly manned in so far as qualified certificated officers and engineers are concerned; (3) by broadcasting weather forecasts and storm warnings from its radiotelegraph stations and supplementing these broadcast messages by visual storm

Unopposed Motions for Papers
signals. The department is considering the equipment of its service steamer "Murray Stewart" with modem life saving devices and utilizing her as a patrol steamer on lake Superior in the fall of the year.
2. Yes. Radio stations for ship to shore communication are maintained at the following points: Kingston, Toronto, Port Burwell, Point Edward, Midland, Sault Ste. Marie and Port Arthur. A radio beacon station is in operation at Southeast Shoal light station (lake Erie) and further beacon stations will be built and placed in operation this season at: Michipicoten island (lake Superior), Cove island (lake Huron), Long Point (lake Erie), Main Ducks (lake Ontario). At Point Pelee, Ontario, a constant lookout is maintained by the crew of the life saving station an a suitable power boat is under agreement to proceed to any ships in distress.


ICE BREAKING-PORT ARTHUR AND FORT WILLIAM
Mr. COWAN:: 1.	Has the Department of Marine and Fisheries or any other department of the government entered into a contract with the Dominion Towing and Salvage Company Limited, of Port Arthur, or any other company for ice breaking in the harbours of Port Arthur and Fort William for the years 1929 and succeeeding years?
2.	Is it the intention of the department to call for tenders for such work, if a contract has not already been entered into?


Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	The contract covering the fall of 1928 and spring of 1929 was dated 20th November, 1928. All work under this contract has been completed.
2.	No decision has been taken in the matter.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. RENNIE:: What amount of money has been spent by the government on the following harbours each year from 1900 to date:	(a) Montreal: (b)
Quebec; (c) St. John; (d) Toronto; (e) Vancouver; (f) Hamilton; (g) Halifax?


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: For a copy of all correspondence, applications, ratings, and all other documents in the possession of the Civil Service Commission and the Department of National Revenue, together with copy of report of the proceedings and decisions thereof with respect to the appointment of Mr. Richardson, assistant dry goods ippraiser at Winnipeg, Manitoba?


AUTOMOBILE SEIZURES AT ATHELSTAN
Mr. BELL (St. Antoine):: For a return showing the number of automobiles seized a.t the port of Athelstan during the yeaTS 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927 and 1928, the name of the parties from whom seized, date of seizure, date of sale, to wlhom sold, amount received, how long in storage, name of party with whom stored, and amount paid for storage.


PREVENTIVE OFFICERS, PICTOU
Mr. CANTLEY:: For a copy of all correspondence passed during the years 1928 and 1929 between the honourable the Minister of National Revenue or any official of the government and any person or persons in the county of Pictou, Nova Scotia, relating in any way to the removal, replacing or appointment of preventive officers in the east and/or west sections of Pictou county


EXPORT OF WHEAT TO FRANCE AND ITALY
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition) :: Has the Minister of Finance been
advised of an increase of duty on wheat imported into France and also on wheat imported into Italy?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):: I have no information regarding Italy; we made inquiry last night but have not yet received advice. We have information as to the increase in France. I think my hon. friend has the memorandum now.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is fifty cents a quintal.


James Alexander Robb: Yes. I am sending on the
memorandum to the officers of the department to inquire as to how Canada will be affected


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is over fifty cents a
bushel.


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


CIVIL SERVICE COUNCILS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):: Last year the government
accepted the proposal to establish civil service councils. May I ask the Minister of Labour when these will come into actual operation?


Hon. PETER HEENAN (Minister of Labour):: I expect they will be in operation
inside of one month.
Dismissals-Mr. Cahan



SUPPLY-DISMISSALS

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of supply.
['Mr. Speaker, I have just a few\nwords to say on this matter. I have heard the two-hour speech of the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan). If he goes to the Calgary stampede this year and meets some Indians there, they will probably call him "Chief Long Breath." The last issue of Life says that besides dance marathons, there might be chewing gum and teeth-brushing endurance contests. Why not have a speech marathon, not for the future, but with a retroactive effect? In this case, the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George would be an easy winner, not with his two-hour speech of to-day but with the six-hour speech he delivered two years ago. In France and in England an hon. member would be covered with ridicule if he spoke for two hours on a single case in regard \'to which he did not know the real facts.\nWhen the Tories were in power, the people who were dismissed were as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sands of the desert. Now the Tories complain and when their friends make trouble during an election, they would like to have them promoted instead of dismissed. I am in favour of the freedom of the franchise for all the employrees in the public service; whether they are Tories, Grits, socialists or anything else, they should be entitled to enjoy their franchise with the greatest freedom. But when it comes to canvassing and making trouble at meetings, that is entirely different. I can speak freely on this subject because I have not asked for many dismissals in my constituency. There are some Tories amongst the civil servants in my constituency, but I do not bother about them. They can vote as they like. But if they cause trouble in meetings, they should be told that they cannot long retain their positions. I think this would be a good opportunity to inform all employees in the civil service to-day that if they want to make trouble during elections or at other times by canvassing against the candidates whoever they may be, they run the risk of being dismissed.\nI take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr Malcolm) and the Solicitor General (Mr Cannon) on their clear expose of the case.\nAmendment (Mr. Cahan) negatived on division.\n\nFish Traps-Mr. Neill']
Mr. C. H. CAHAN (St. Lawrenee-St. George):: As I understand that this motion
is for the house to go into committee of supply for the purpose of considering the estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce, I desire to bring to the attention of the house the case of the dismissal of one Mr. Couture, of St. Bernard, Dorchester county, from his office as inspector of weights and measures, which is under a sub-department or branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce. I desire at the same time to present facts in connection with this dismissal, which I trust will justify the Minister of Trade and Commerce in granting an inquiry into the charges which have been alleged against this official and which were the grounds for his dismissal. I also intend before closing my address to move an amendment to this motion to go into supply, dealing generally with the matter of dismissals for partisan political activities.
I may state at the outset that in proposing this amendment I a;m not proposing a vote of want of confidence in the government; I trust that the amendment will so commend itself to the government that they will be prepared to accept it. Paragraph 489 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms makes it clearly apparent that the acceptance of this amendment will not prevent the house from going into committee of supply at the present time. That paragraph reads:
When an amendment has been adopted to the motion for the house to go into committee of supply or of ways and means, it may be forthwith moved that the house resolve itself into sueh committee immediately or on a future day.
So that the acceptance of the amendment which I propose would not prevent the house from going into committee of supply on ihe estimates of the Department of Trade and Commerce.
During the last session I had occasion to bring to the attention of the house the case of an official of the Department of National Revenue, one Dumoulin, of Notre Dame des Bois, in the province of Quebec. I wish now to pay tribute to the minister of that department (Mr. Euler), for the manner in which he fulfilled the promise which he made on that occasion. He declared that under the circumstances disclosed in that discussion he believed that Dumoulin should have an opportunity of appearing before a com-
missioner to prove his innocence of the charges made against him by a member of this parliament. He also stated that, if the innocence of the dismissed employee was proved, he would see, in so far as it lay within his power, that there should be redress- not that the official should be reinstated in office, because the minister held that there was a ruling of the Department of Justice that a minister, after the dismissal of an official, had no power to reappoint him to the same office. But th,e Minister of National Revenue did declare on that occasion that if on inquiry this official proved his innocence he would have the man reinstated in some other similar office. The minister ordered an inquiry, which was duly held. Evidence was taken and it proved the entire innocence of the dismissed official. I wish to say in commendation of the minister that he did thereupon recommend for appointment the exofficial Dumoulin who had been so dismissed. It is true that Dumoulin on that occasion was compelled again to stand examination before the Civil Service Commission; It is true Be was appointed, not to the same but to a similar office; it is probable that although he was proved to be innocent he lost his interest in the superannuation fund to which he had contributed for so many years before his dismissal; and unless the law is changed I do not think there is any doubt that he will lose the priority which he had attained by reason of several years of service in that department-all of which are grave disadvantages accruing from a dismissal which now admittedly had been improperly made.
I have therefore looked into the law with respect to the dismissal of officials, not only in Great Britain but in this country. I find that in Great Britain, as in Canada, the executive and administrative powers of the Privy Council include all those matters which, under our constitution, are entrusted to the sovereign by virtue of the royal prerogative. His Excellency the Governor General acts, in the exercise of that royal prerogative in respect of the domestic affairs of this country, on the advice of the Privy Council of Canada. In Canada those orders in council which are expressed to be made on the recommendation of a committee of the Privy Council and to be approved by the Governor General, make appointments to office, remove from office officials appointed during the pleasure of the crown, and accept resignations and order dismissals from office. We made some slight change from the British procedure by vesting in the Civil Service Commission the

Dismissals-Mr. Cahan
power of making appointments to office, but the right of dismissal is exclusively vested in the governor in council of Canada.
In Great Britain officials holding office during pleasure may be dismissed by order in council without cause being alleged, but, so far as I have ascertained, every official dismissed from office for an alleged breach of the law is not dismissed until a complaint has been made before a court having jurisdiction in the matter and until that court, after having heard witnesses at a trial, has decided either by judge or by judge and jury that the official has been guilty of a breach of the statutes. That is the complete protection which is afforded by the British procedure and by the constiutional practice of that country.
In Canada officials of the civil service may be dismissed for political partisanship as defined by chapter 22 of the revised statutes of Canada, section 55, which reads as follows:
No deputy head, officer, clerk or employee in the civil service shall be debarred from voting at any Dominion or provincial election if, under the laws governing the said election, he has^ the right to vote; but no such deputy head, officer, clerk or employee shall engage in partisan work in connection with any such election, or contribute, receive or in any way deal with any money for any party funds.
2. Any person violating any of the provisions of this section shall he dismissed from the civil service.
Another section provides that the dismissal can be made only by order of the governor in council. This statute, which was introduced into our law in 1918, changed the whole status of the civil service of Canada and should have abolished all other practices with regard to dismissals or recommendations for dismissals which theretofore had obtained in this country. It provides, in brief, that a civil service official may vote if he is entitled to the franchise, but he shall not engage in partisan work in connection with any election; he shall not contribute, receive or in any way deal with any money for party funds. Those are the two classes of offences, and the only classes, which constitute political partisanship under our law, in consequence of a breach of which an employee of the civil service may be dismissed. If the governor in council, which is the government of the day, should dismiss an official of the civil service for an alleged act of political partisanship which does not fall within the terms of this provision of the statute, then I suggest that the government itself is responsible for a breach of the law of this country. A mere charge of political partisanship is not sufficient; political partisanship is merely a legal conclusion drawn from certain facts; and in accordance
with British justice-and I may add in accordance with Canadian justice-the complainant is bound to state the specific acts which are alleged to constiute political partisanship, as well as the times when and places where the alleged acts were committed, in order to give the accused full information for the preparation of his defence. Of course, any competent person may lay such a charge, whether he be an ordinary citizen, a member of this house or a member of the government of the country.
I do not wish to use strong terms, but certainly it does outrage our sense of justice and right dealing if the individual who prefers a charge against a civil servant should be permitted to sit as judge and jury and to pass judgment upon his own complaint. Our Canadian law and practice now affords, and should afford, complete protection to an official of the service who has faithfully, competently and efficiently performed- his duty, against any fictitious charge which may be preferred against him. If the minister of a department demands efficient and loyal service from those under his supervision, as he should, then it is necessary that the minister should see that those officials who give such service receive his protection, as minister of the crown, against all fictitious, false or deceitful charges made against them.
If you take the Civil Service Act and read it together with the Inquiries Act you will find that our procedure implies several conditions:	First, the complaint must be made
directly or indirectly to the minister of the crown who has been appointed and solemnly sworn to administer the particular department of government in which the accused is employed; second, it is the bounden duty of that minister of the crown to see to it that his officials, from whom he necessarily demands loyal and efficient service, are completely protected against false and malicious charges or complaints, from whatever source they may emanate; third, except in the case of complete admission or confession of guilt, it is impossible for the minister to fulfil his duty and responsibility in the premises except by ensuring that the accused shall be informed of the nature and details of the charge preferred against him, and that the accused also shall be afforded full opportunity to present his defence and prove himself innocent of the complaint or charge made against him; fourth, to that end it is necessary that the minister, personally or through a commissioner appointed for the purpose, should conduct a full and impartial inquiry into the facts alleged and the issues arising out of such allegations; fifth, our statutes have made
325S
Dismissals-Mr. Cahan

full provision for such departmental inquiries. I would refer to the Inquiries Act, which is chapter 99 of the revised statutes of Canada. Section 6 of that act is as follows:
6.	The minister .presiding over any department of the civil service of Canada, may appoint at any time, under the authority of the governor in council, a commissioner or commissioners to investigate and report upon the state and management of the business, or any part of the business, of such department, either in the inside or outside service thereof, and the conduct of any person in such service, so far as the same relates to his official duties.
The Inquiries Act vests in the commissioner so appointed very large powers. The commissioner may summon witnesses and require them to give evidence on oath, and he may engage counsel to assist and aid him in such inquiries. However, there are certain matters in which our law allows the commissioner no discretion whatever. The Inquiries Act provides as follows:
12.	The commissioners may allow any person, whose conduct is being investigated under this act, and shall allow any person against whom any charge is made in the course of such investigation, to be represented by counsel.
13.	No report shall be made against any person until reasonable notice shall have been given to him of the charge of misconduct alleged against him and he shall have been allowed full opportunity to be heard in person or by counsel.
Such are the wise provisions of our laws with respect to inquiries into the alleged misconduct of any officer of any department in our civil service. The accused is allowed to be represented by counsel and reasonable notice shall be given to him of the charge of misconduct alleged against him. He shall be allowed full opportunity to be heard' in person or by counsel, and the accused is further protected in that even if a report is made against him by the commissioner, in which the minister presiding over that particular department fully concurs, yet the minister may not by his own motion dismiss the accused from his office or employment. The minister can only report the commissioner's findings to the governor in council, and parliament has enacted, for the due protection of the civil servant, a provision that he may be dismissed only by order of the governor in council, that is, by the government of the day upon whom the legal and moral duty and responsibility is placed of assuring to the accused that he has been fully protected in his rights and privileges under the law, including the full opportunity to present his defence and to prove his innocence of the charges of misconduct preferred against him.
I do not wish to take up the time of the house in going fully into the law, but I suggest that it might be considered by the

Solicitor General (Mr. Cannon) and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe). If an order in council dismissing an official alleges a case which as not true in fact, that official has thb right to proceed to the courts and have the order in oouncil set aside. It is obvious in the case of a civil servant who is receiving a small salary of $1,000 or $1,500 per year that through his very impecuniosity he is denied access to the courts for relief against the order in council affecting his dismissal, where it has been procured by deceit, misrepresentation or through any obvious error.
In the case of Dumoulin, which I have just discussed, I think the action of the minister of the crown was entirely commendable-I know that was the opinion which prevailed throughout the length and breadth of the province from which I come, and in many other provinces-and as a result the civil servants with small salaries and humble positions have a confidence, which they did not have heretofore, in the loyalty to their interests of the chief of their department when they are performing their duties efficiently and honestly. It gave to them a new faith and confidence that justice would prevail in the civil service of Canada whenever the facts were brought to the notice of the minister presiding over any department of the civil service.
It was alleged in that case that an official having been dismissed, his reappointment could not be made because appointments must necessarily emanate from the Civil Service Commission. I have looked into the law in that respect and I differ decidedly from the position which has been taken. The report of the Department of Justice was correct in view of the facts presented to it, as to whether the head of a department could appoint to the civil service a dismissed official, but that is not the real issue. The leal issue was whether or not, when an order in council had been passed under a misapprehension or misrepresentation, or through any other error, the governor in council of itself had the inherent right to amend it3 own order or to rescind its own order which had been obtained through misstatements of facts or other errors. I find that in England and in this country the governor in council has an inherent right to rescind its own order when it has been improperly obtained, or to amend and modify it so that it may express the real facts upon which it is founded, and that inherent right has been exercised time and time again in the history of this country during the last sixty years. Incoming governments have reversed the decisions of their predecessors, and governments, on

ascertainment of the real facts, have rescinded their own orders in council and have modified them and amended them, and that is the modus operandi in which mistakes can be and should be remedied.
This case which I am now approaching appeals to me because the dismissed official had been some fourteen years fulfilling the duties of his office. He has sent to me commendation after commendation from his superior officers approving of the honesty and efficiency and zeal with which he had performed his duty. He was a man of very modest salary; he had children of his own and he had adopted three other children of a brother who was deceased, and had large family responsibilities placed upon him. His being cast on the street at his age and after so many years of service was a misfortune which few of us, who do not live in lowly circumstances, can fully apprehend. For many years I was one of the executive heads of a large construction works employing thousands and even tens of thousands of men. It has been my duty to be at the bedside of many men just as they were passing into eternity from the ravages of a disease or the result of an accident. Contrary to the ordinary view, I never found a man who seemed to be worried very much about his own soul's salvation. What that man was worrying about was his own wife and children in some foreign land, from which he had come to engage in these works, and who were dependent upon his' salary for their well-being. The one thing that he represented to me on his deathbed was: How can my wife and bairns live when I pass out? I have seen other young men from distant lands who seemed to be wild and reckless youths, but who, on their deathbeds, were not concerned about their souls' salvation; each one was wondering how some aged parent, father or mother, in a distant land could survive, if deprived of the contributions which he or she received from his weekly or monthly wage. Therefore I say that dismissals of this kind come home to the families of those dismissed as a cruel misfortune which, if they believe it to be unjust, not only wounds the spirit of the man but wipes out his confidence in the justice of his fello-wmen. It must be admitted that justice is the aim and end of all good government, of all efficient and honest administration in this country. Therefore, on this ground I intend to call your attention to the particular facts of the case of Couture.
The documents have been brought down by the minister in compliance with an order of
Dismissals-Mr. Cahan
the house. The first letter which is from the Department of the Solicitor General of Canada, is dated February 15, 1927, and reads as follows:
My Dear Colleague:	...
I beg to recommend the immediate. dismissal of Mr. Hypolite Couture of St. Bernard, Dorchester county, P.Q., inspector of weights and measures in the Department of Trade and Commerce, on account of active political partisanship in the course of the three last federal elections and notably that of 1926- and that of my personal knowledge.
I trust you may see your way clear to grant this request.
Yours faithfully,
(Signed) Lucien Cannon.
Honourable James Malcolm, Minister of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa.
Let me direct your attention, Mr. Speaker, to that complaint. I am not intending in this discussion to make any partisan recriminations whatsoever. I simply wish to get to the real facts of the case, in the hope that the government of I he day may see it in somewhat the same light as I see it and resolve to make just amends. This letter is d'ated February 15, 1927. The election of 1921 was held on December 17 of that year and five years and two months had elapsed before the charge was made. I suggest that although there is no statute of limitations, still there should be some limitation of time within which charges of political partisanship should be brought. The election of 1925 was held on October 29 of that year, so that one year and four months had elapsed. If the charge of political partisanship, which is spread over all those general elections in a term of more than five years, refers particularly to the election of December 14, 1926, five months had elapsed since that election took place. This is a charge of active political partisanship. I suggest that under the statute an official may be dismissed for actively engaging in partisan work in connection with such election, but it is due to an accused official that the facts indicating political partisanship should be stated so that he may have warning of the grounds of the accusation made against him. A mere charge of political partisanship is merely a legal conclusion; it involves no facts whatsoever. Shortly thereafter I find a communication from the Minister of Trade and Commerce to His Excellency the Governor General in council, file No. 24584:
The Department of Trade and Commerce Canada
To His Excellency the Governor General in Council:
The undersigned begs to recommend that Inspector C. H. Couture of the weights and measures branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce, of St. Bernard, Dorchester
Dismissa Is-Mr. Ca han

the office and every respect for the present incumbent of it, and I am not going to exaggerate my statements with words of bitterness at all-he had a right to show that the Solicitor General 'had misapprehended the real facts or that he had been misinformed or that he had made his recommendations in error. He had a right to receive from the Minister of Trade and Commerce an inquiry which would enable him to elicit the real facts on which that accusation was based, because it must be admitted that even the Solicitor General is not endowed with omniscience, that even he may at times be misinformed.


Mr. CANNON:: It is not a case of being
misinformed. I was witness to the act of partisanship.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Then I will say it is not impossible, as I believe in this case, that if the hon. Solicitor General was a witness his own eyes deceived him.


Mr. POULIOT:: Were you a witness yourself?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I was not, but I have read
some of the evidence. I think it at least establishes a prima facie case to that end, and is sufficient to induce the Minister of Trade and Commerce to institute an inquiry into the real facts of the case, so that they may at least be known.
Now, Mr. Couture was dismissed by order in council as from March 1. But as he was away performing his duties, proceeding from one village to another throughout the district, they could not find him for several days, and so the Minister of Trade and Commerce, taking advantage of the inherent right of the governor in council to amend and modify, or even to rescind, its own orders, asked that the order be amended on the grounds that: as this employee was out on inspection work it was impossible to get in touch with him until one o'clock p.m. on Saturday, March 5; and that in addition, this officer had to come to Quebec on Monday, March 7, to hand in his equipment, revenue stamps, the money collected the previous week, and the balance of his contingent fund-
Therefore the Minister of Trade and Commerce :
begs to recommend that the date of Mr. Couture's dismissal be changed from March 1, 1927, to March 8, 1927.
An order in council to that effect was passed on April 4, 1927. There is one man in the department-I do not know him, I never came in contact with him-who at least is a just man, and this letter indicates it:
IMr. Cahan.]
Department of Trade and Commerce,
Ottawa, April 21, 1927.
H. B. Borbridge, Esq.,
Chief Accountant.
Re ex-inspector C. H. Couture, Retirement Fund.
With regard to the above and the refund of Couture's superannuation moneys, the act apparently only withholds such repayment where there is misconduct. Apparently misconduct can be interpreted to include political partisanship -as this is an offence for which an officer can be dismissed from the service, but it seems to me that when a man has lost his position on this latter charge, the government hardly desires to add deprivation of the officer's contributions from salary to superannuation. Misconduct in relation to dismissal usually implies a moral offence, such as a breach of trust, dishonesty, unauthorized absentations, etc., but on this score Mr. Couture has a perfectly clean record.
It seems to me then that a submission might be made to council seeking payment to Couture of bis superannuation fund contributions on the above lines.
E. O. Way,
Director of Weights and Measures.
Then on April 22, 1927, the Minister of Trade and Commerce makes a recommendation to His Excellency the Governor General in council to that effect. In the memorandum attached he shows that Couture had been first provisionally and later permanently appointed, that his service at the retirement date was thirteen years, two months and eight days, and that he had contributed to the superannuation fund $401.91. Then the case goes before the treasury board and they recommend this repayment to Couture.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Was it paid to him?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The correspondence shows
that some months later a cheque was sent to Couture, but he returned it and said he had reason to believe that an inquiry would be granted which would lead to his reinstatement in the service, and that he did not wish to accept the cheque. It was returned by him, and so far as I can ascertain it is now held by the Finance department awaiting the decision as to his application for an inquiry.


Jean-François Pouliot: So he was not much in
need of money?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: He was not much in need
of money 1 There are a few men in this world who have more regard for their reputation, for their personal honour, than for the mere pittance which they receive from the superannuation fund of this government.

Dismissals-Mr. Cahan
The next letter is from Couture himself, and is also a translation which I personally made. It is as follows:
St. Bernard, July 28, 1927.
The Honourable J. Malcolm,
Minister of Commerce,
Ottawa.
Mr. Minister:
The 7th of March last, for cause of political partisanship, I "was dismissed from ray duties as inspector of weights and measures, a position which I have occupied since December, 1913, and for which I had obtained my permanent appointment in June, 1914.
The 10th of March last, I addressed a letter to Mr. E. O. Way, director of weights and measures, requesting him to submit my case to you and to the Department in which I urged that an inquiry should be granted to me, in order to provide me with facilities for proving my innocense of the accusations made against me. and of which I am ready to give you full explanation. This letter has remained without reply, and. for your information, I submit to you the enclosed copy.
It seems to me, Mr. Minister, that, by virtue of the British law, a permanent employee, even if he is culpable, has the right to an inquiry, especially when he has fulfilled, to the satisfaction of his superior officers, all his duties, during fourteen years.
I would remind you that I have contributed to the pension funds and that I have an insurance of ton thousand dollars ($10,000) in the insurance of the civil service, an insurance which I pay in favour of my wife and of my five children, in case of accident.
Under the circumstances, it seems to me that an appeal to your spirit of justice justifies me in demanding an inquiry, and I will submit to the consequences of it, if it is unfavourable to my pretensions.
While awaiting a favourable reply to my request, please accept the expression of my most sincere sentiments.
I have the honour to be,
Mr. Minister,
Your very devoted servant,
Chas. H. Couture.
On August 16, 1927, the following letter was despatched to Mr. Couture from the office of the Minister of Trade and Commerce:	[DOT]
August 16, 1927.
Charles H. Couture, Esq.,
St. Bernard, Que.
Dear Sir:
I am desired by the Honourable James Malcolm to let you know that your letter of the 28th ultimo asking for an inquiry into the question of your dismissal as inspector of weights and measures for the district of Quebec on the grounds of political partisanship has been duly received.
In reply the minister desires me to say that as you were dismissed on the recommendation of one of his colleagues of the government, who had personal knowledge of the situation, he does not see that any good purpose can be served in reopening the matter. He notes that '8594-207
you have taken your refund of contributions to the superannuation fund, and he therefore regards the whole matter as closed.
Yours faithfully,
R. O. Campney,
Private Secretary.
The minister, was under an obvious misapprehension with regard to Couture's acceptance of the superannuation fund, but I presume he had been so informed. In this letter the Minister of Trade and Commerce urges that no good purpose could be served by instituting an inquiry. Couture had performed his official duties for nearly fourteen years, enjoying the full confidence of his superior officials and receiving every evidence of their approbation. Now, is it not the bounden duty of the minister at the head of a department who enjoys the loyal support and faithful cooperation of his subordinate officials, to protect them against all charges of misconduct which are not duly supported by evidence? And when such an official asks for an inquiry, protesting his innocence, I suggest to the minister, does it not serve a good purpose, in fact is it not essential to the proper administration of the department, that that official should have full opportunity to vindicate his reputation as a loyal officer and to prove his innocence of the charge preferred against him? I have another letter from Mr. Couture replying to this letter signed by the minister's private secretary. I have had it translated and it reads as follows:
St. Bernard, August 25, 1927. Honourable minister:
I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 16th instant, by the intervention of your private secretary, telling me that I have'been dismissed from my duties of inspector of weights and measures, upon the recommendation of one of your colleagues in the government who claims to have personal knowledge of the facts. Permit me to say that I am in a position to affirm, with proof for its support, that the Hon. Lucien Cannon has purely and simply been led into error by jealous and malicious persons who covet my position.
I have informed the Hon. Lucien Cannon of all this affair, and I have reason to expect that with the information which I have given to him. he will do justice in granting me the inquiry which I claim.
I have the honour to be Mr. Minister,
Your obedient servant,
Chas. H. Couture. The Honourable James Malcolm,
Minister of Commerce,
Ottawa, Ont.
I have another document which was not brought down by the department. Whether it was sent to the Solicitor General-because the correspondence in the department

Dismissals-Mr. Cahan

of the Solicitor General has not been brought down-or whether lit was sent to the Minister of Trade and Commerce or his deputy, I am not in a position for the moment to affirm But it is an affidavit of Mr. Couture, a translation of which I have made:
I, the undersigned, Chas. H. Couture, exinspector of weights and measures of St. Bernard (Dorchester) declare solemnly that on the 5th of September, 1926, I was present at a public meeting which took place at the public hall in the vicinity of my residence, and that I listened to the speakers, who succeeded each other, with all the respect which I have always given to our public men.
During the speech of the Hon. Lueien Cannon-
It certainly should not be an act of political partisanship, when the Solicitor General is holding a meeting on a public street beside the residence of an official, that that official should step out on that public street to listen to the words of wisdom and eloquence which come from the lips of the minister. Admittedly, however, this man did so.
During the speech of the Hon. Lueien Cannon, a group of young lads, among which I recognized the three young brothers Fontaine, (Armand, Laurier and Daniel) of a very Liberal family, came to mingle with the young girls of the village, of which there weTe twro of mine, adopted daughters, aged respectively ten and eleven years.
I ask the house to note the ages-ten and eleven.
They made a certain noise, which nevertheless did not disturb the meeting. Since these infants were about a hundred feet from the throng, and seeing my niece approaching in my yard,-
His own lawn was a few feet away from where the public meeting was being held-
I knew that she came to restore good order, and it was for that reason that I remained in my place.
The following day, the 6th of September, I was present at a meeting held in the interior of the public hall, by the Conservative candidate, Mr. Robert Cote. Having entered one of the last into the hall, on account of the absence of the mayor, they asked me twice to preside at the meeting. I categorically refused, adding the last time that: "I do not mix myself in such matters."
I did not utter a word during the address, except that being one of the first to leave. I said to a unman that it is growing -warm. She replied, "It is warm". I replied: "Pardon Madam, I said it is growing warm".
Evidently the suggestion was that his active partisanship consisted in the statement that the Solicitor General had rather a poor reception in the village.


Lucien Cannon: He is not referring to my meeting at all; he must have reference to the Conservative meeting.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: D ismissals-M r. Cahan

I should tell you that I have had the honour of having an interview with the Honourable Lucien Cannon the 3rd instant. He has told me that he would request the Honourable James Malcolm to grant me the inquiry which I claim, then it will decide whether I ought to be reinstated in my duties as inspector of weights and measures. This is the reason why I return to you my cheque.
I have the honour to be, sir.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd) Chas. H. Couture. To the Deputy Minister,
Department of Commerce,
Ottawa. Ont.
Then on March 29, 1928, the Solicitor General wrote the Minister of Trade and Commerce as follows:
Solicitor General Canada
Ottawa, March 29, 1928.
Personal.
Re: C. H. Couture, former Inspector of Weights and Measures, Quebec.
My dear Colleague:
Referring to our previous correspondence relative to the above-named,-I beg to say that representations have been made to me by Mr. Couture himself, and by his friends on his behalf. Under the circumstances, therefore, I have no objection to an inquiry being granted him.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) Lucien Cannon.
Hon. James Malcolm,
Minister of Trade and Commerce,
Ottawa.
I wish to commend the Solicitor General for writing that letter; it indicates that the evidence which I have submitted to the house, and which previously had been submitted to him, had some influence. However, it will be noted that he says he has no objection to an inquiry; under the circumstances would it not have been equally commendable, if not more so, if the Solicitor General had insisted that an inquiry be granted? It seems to me that such a course ol his part would have been far more consistent with the traditions of the high office which he holds. On April 17, 1928, the Minister of Trade and Commerce replied:
April 17, 1928.
Confidential.
Honourable Lucien Cannon, K.C., M.P.,
Solicitor General,
Ottawa.
My dear Colleague:
I have your letter of the 29th ultimo written in connection with the dismissal of Mr. C. H. Couture, formerly in the weights and measures inspection service at Quebec. With reference to this matter I may say that the deputy minister took the question of his possible reinstatement up with the Department of Justice in February last, assuming that such a step might result from an investigation of the case, but he was informed that this procedure was impossible.
fMr. Cahan.I
I enclose herewith copy of the letter written by my deputy minister and the reply thereto from the Deputy Minister of Justice. It would not seem possible, therefore, to open this matter at this late date.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) James Malcolm.
I do not think it is necessary for me to read the letter written by Mr. O'Hara, Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, to the Department of Justice; the important thing is the reply of the Deputy Minister of Justice: Ottawa, February 28, 1928.
410/28 Dear Sir:
1 have the honour to reply to your letter of the 18th instant relative to the question whether a former official of your department who was dismissed from the service by order in council on the ground of having been guilty of political partisanship, can now be reinstated, or whether he will have to apply for a position in the usual course.	.
I may say, in reply, that if the order in council dismissing this employee has taken effect from its own date mentioned therein, there is no power in the governor in council to reinstate the employee so dismissed and he cannot reenter the service except by appointment under the Civil Service Act or by virtue of special parliamentary authority.
Yours faithfully,
(Sgd.) W. Stuart Edwards, D. M. J.
F. C. T. O'Hara. Esq.,
Deputy Minister of Trade and Commerce, Ottawa.
I suggest to the Minister of Justice that his deputy missed the real point of the question which he was called upon to decide. It is obvious that the Minister of Trade and Commerce could not appoint an official to his department either originally or a second time after he had been dismissed, but the real point was whether or not the Privy Council of Canada, or the governor in council, has the inherent power to rescind, modify or amend an order in council which it has passed under a misapprehension of fact. If an inquiry showed that the Solicitor General, in making this complaint, had been deceived by the reports and rumours which were current, or even that he had not worn his farseeing glasses that day and had been deceived by his own imperfect eyesight, once the governor in council is convinced that a wrong has been done and an order in council issued based upon a misapprehension of facts, then the governor in council has the inherent power to remedy that defect by rescinding the order in council.

D is missals-M r. Cahan
I have no wish to weary the house, but I desire to place on record one other letter, which is also a translation:
St. Bernard,
April 30, 1928.
The Honourable Lucien Cannon,
Solicitor General,
Ottawa.
Mr. Minister:
Permit me to importune you one last time.
You have dismissed me as inspector of weights and measures, the 1st of March, 1927, for political partisanship.
I have received the official advice of my dismissal the 5th of March, and, the 10th of the month, I have requested an inquiry of Mr. Way, director of weights and measures, who has not replied.
Since then a great number of your friends and of mine have written you in my favour, declaring to you that never, to their knowledge, have T done an act of political partisanship.
To the cure of Scott you have replied the 9th of March, that you regretted that which had befallen me, that my conduct in the last electoral campaigns had compelled you to adopt the attitude which you have taken. You declare again in this letter that I have pneonraged your adversary to insult your family, your wife, and yourself. The cure replied to you that he himself had made an inquiry and that he had soon ascertained that my dismissal was an affair arranged and decided in advance by those who boasted of making me lose my position to obtain it afterwards.
There was a caucus with young Blais of St. Bernard to decide upon my dismissal. At this caucus, amongst others, Mr. Rosaria LeBel and Arthur Giroux of Scott assisted.
Now, you well know the opinions of Mr. LeBel regarding me; as to Mr. Giroux his name appears among the eighty and more names who have requested of you my reinstatement; he has said and repeated that he was deceived.
T, myself, have procured the delivery to you of sworn declarations denying absolutely and categorically that I have meddled in any way whatever with politics since 1913.
As you do not appear to have faith in the declarations of your friends and mine, I have requested an inquiry, this time of Mr. Foran, the secretary of the Civil Service Commission, who has replied to me that the commission cannot intervene and telling me to address myself to the Deputy Minister of Commerce.
1 thereupon requested this inquiry of the Hon. J. Malcolm, the 20th of July last. He replied by his secretary on August 10th that inasmuch as I was dismissed upon the recommendation of one of his colleagues, who personally knew the situation, he did not deem it expedient to open an inquiry; that otherwise. I had accepted my cheque for the amount of my contribution to the pension funds, and that he considered the matter closed. Then this cheque I have twice returned: it is now at the Department of Finance, awaiting that the question may be considered.
In the course of an interview which I had with you, on March 3rd last, you asked me to choose whether I desired you -to concern yourself with my pension or with an inquiry, adding that I was not obliged to reply immediately, that an inquiry might cause me surprises.
I immediately replied to you that I desired an inquiry.
The 25th of April last, your secretary wrote to me that you had no objection to this inquiry being granted, but that the Hon. Mr. Malcolm had declared that such an inquiry could have no practical result, because of the provisions of the civil service law in such matters, and, in consequence, that it could not be granted to me.
There is my situation. I have been dismissed because of political partisanship, it is said; and I have not had an opportunity to defend myself.
I have employed all the means at my disposal. T have formally denied these allegations; your friends have declared the same thing to you;
I have many times requested an inquiry, which has been refused me.
A large number of citizens. Liberal leaders of the different parishes of the county, have requested my reinstatement, which I have not yet obtained.
Without any doubt your good faith has been surprised; you have been deceived, and you ought now to take account of it.
I conclude then that since you have been able to dismiss me by means of false reports, of machinations and intrigues, you have certainly the power, knowing now the facts, to restore my position, and, if I do not obtain it, I will be forced to believe, much to my regret, that you have permitted yourself to commit an injustice.
At least, I should be granted an inquiry, and if the facts and allegations which have led to my dismissal are proved, I will very willingly submit, for I would have merited that which has happened to me.
All I desire is that they will afford me the means of proving my inocence.
Requesting from you the favour of a final reply, Mr. minister,
Your very humble servant,
(Sgd.) Clias. H. Couture.
The Solicitor General's department wrote on May 8, as follows:
Dear Mr. Campney:
Re: C. H. Couture
Hon. Mr. Cannon has asked me to transmit to you, for your minister's attention, copy of a letter received from Mr. C. H. Couture, former inspector of weights and measures, Quebec, which I herewith enclose.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) Pierre Brunet,
Private Secretary.
Mr. R. O. Campney,
Private Secretary to the Minister of Trade and Commerce,
Ottawa.
The letter which I have just read was passed over for the consideration of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. A similar letter was written on June 1, 1928, by Mr. Couture direct to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. The reply is dated June 11, 1928, and is as follows:
Mr. C. H. Couture,
St. Bernard, P.Q.
Sir:
Your letter of the 1st instant has been discussed by the minister and deputy minister.
Mr. O'Hara remarks that under the existing laws it is absolutely impossible to reestablish
32CS
Dismissals-Mr. Cahan

you in your former position. The minister is therefore of the opinion that there is absolutely nothing to gain by the inquiry which you claim and he asks me so to advise you.
Accept, sir, my sincere compliments.
(Sgd.) I. Macartney,
Acting Secretary.
I think the Minister of Trade and Commerce, after having dictated that letter, suffered some slight qualms of conscience, because on June 12, 1928, he wrote as follows:
Honourable Lucien Cannon,
Solicitor General,
Ottawa, Ontario.
My dear Colleague:
Relative to the matter of Couture. It appears that even if an investigation were granted he could not under the law be reinstated in his former position.
We have therefore written Mr. Couture stating that we did not see what would be gained by an investigation.
We have not definitely refused to grant an investigation. This will depend upon your advice to us.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd.) James Malcolm.
The minister was putting it up entirely to the person who made the accusations as to whether or not an investigation should be held into the conduct of one of his officials, who, as the evidence before him and before his department showed, had been a faithful official for some thirteen or fourteen years. If I had time I would read the official commendations as to his efficient service which from time to time he had received from his superior officers. If the minister thinks that that is a fair way to deal with a loyal, faithful and efficient employee I cannot agree with him. When a loyal and efficient subordinate officer is allowed to be deprived of his position by means of an accusation, which he is in a position to refute, you destroy the spirit of the whole department over which you preside. When you deal unjustly with a man under you, you destroy the spirit of faithfulness and loyalty of the men who have been loyal to you.


Mr. MALCOLM:: That has not been done.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The reply from the Solicitor General is dated March 16, 1929, and reads as follows:
I have received a letter from Mr. Maurice Dupre, K.C., of Quebec city, regarding Mr. C. H. Couture, the former inspector of weights and measures, and 1 am sending a copy of same to you, for your information and consideration.
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd) Lucien Cannon. Honourable James Malcolm,
Minister of Trade and Commerce,
Ottawa.
Air. Cahan.]
With the permission of the house I would like to put the letter of Mr. Dupre upon Han sard, as I have not the time to read it.


James Malcolm: That will be all right.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I then put this letter dated March 13, 1929, from Dupre to Hon. Lucien Cannon, upon Hansard:
Fitzpatrick, Dupre, Gagnon & Parent, Barrister, solicitors, etc.,
Morin Building,
111 Mountain Hill,
Quebec, March 13th, 1929.
Copy.
Honourable Lucien Cannon, K.C.,
Solicitor General,
Ottawa.
Dear Sir:-Re: Mr. Charles Hippolyte Couture, Mayor of St. Bernard, county of Dorchester.
As you are aware, Mr. Couture has been dismissed as inspector of weights and measures without any investigation and for supposed political partisanship. Mr. Couture had occupied his position for 14 years.
We are positive that nothing eotdd be found against Mr. Couture even on the ground of political partisanship but in spite of his efforts no investigation has been granted yet. although you have stated in a letter (April 25th, 1928) that you had no objection to such an investigation.
Mr. Couture would like to prove to you and to the public that the grievances against him are illfounded.
You have already before you numerous demands and petitions signed by very prominent persons of the constituency of Dorchester, irrespective of political creeds or opinions, and praying for an investigation.
The reasons alleged, or supposed to be alleged, are that in the course of a meeting, Mr. Couture encouraged some people to manifest against you or your friends. On the other hand. Mr. Couture and his friends emphatically deny such accusations and it is to justify himself and prove the untruth of these accusations that Mr. Couture respectfully prays for an investigation.
Would you have the kindness to grant such an investigation or at least to recommend same.
T apologize for the trouble I am giving you and. with anticipated thanks, I beg you to believe me
Very sincerely yours,
(Sgd) Maurice Dupre.
The next letter is dated April 12, 1928, from the Minister of Trade and Commerce to the Solicitor General. It reads as follows:
Hon. Lucien Cannon,
Solicitor General,
Ottawa.
My dear Colleague:
Relative to your letter of March 16th, Re C. H. Couture, T enclose herewith a memo which I have received from my deputy minister regarding this man.
Will you kindly advise me if you have anything to suggest that I might do further in this matter?
Yours sincerely,
(Sgd) James Malcolm.

Dismissals-Mr. Cahan
A memorandum is enclosed containing the report from the Deputy Minister of Justice, stating that the minister cannot reappoint him.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Did he get back his superannuation money?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: He received a cheque and
then went to see the Solicitor General. Believing, as a result of that interview, that he was about to be granted an inquiry he returned the cheque, and I understand that it is now in the possession of the Department of Finance.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He did not cash the
cheque?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: No, he did not cash the
cheque, he returned it immediately by return mail. I think I read the letter of April 10, 1929, in which the Minister of Trade and Commerce said:
Will you kindly advise me if you have anything to suggest that I might do further in this matter?
There does not appear to be any reply to that letter in the file.


Jean-François Pouliot: Hear, hear.


An hon. MEMBER:: What is the matter
with you?


Jean-François Pouliot: He is through.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I feel very strongly about
this matter. Whether or not this man is reinstated upon proof of his innocence, he has a right to a public inquiry, as provided for by the Inquiries Act, in order that he may exculpate himself from this charge and vindicate his personal honour as a loyal and efficient servant of the department. I trust the minister will take the same action which his colleague, the Minister of National Revenue (.Mr. Euler) took, and follow the precedent then established. I am quite sure that it would not detract from the high reputation which the minister has gained as an honest and efficient administrator of the departmeht which has been placed in his charge by the right hon. the Prime Minister.
In my opening remarks I pointed out that in moving this amendment. I did not desire it to be taken as a vote of want of confidence in the government, but simply to establish what I believe to be an important principle. I trust the right hon. the Prime Minister will accept this amendment. According to the rules of the house, as I pointed out, if this amendment passes it does not defeat a second motion immediately made to go into committee of supply. I refer to section 489 of Beauchesne. I beg to move in amendment, seconded by the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart):
That all the words after "that" in the motion of the Honourable the Minister of Finance be struck out and the following words be substituted therefor:
"In the opinion of this house no person should be dismissed from his employment in the civil service of Canada on a charge of political partisanship until the allegations of fact, on which such charge is based, shall have been investigated by a commissioner appointed under the provisions of part two of the Inquiries Act, chapter 99 of the revised statutes of Canada, and said commissioner's report thereon shall have been submitted for the consideration of the governor in council."
I submit that is in accordance with the law as it stands, although it may not be quite in accordance with the practice that has grown up. If this resolution were adopted as a matter of policy in the administration of the several departments of government, this would ensure that every man who denies the accusations made against him and who asks for an opportunity of proving his innocence, would have an opportunity to do so, such as the law provides. It would further ensure that the governor in council, in considering these matters which strike at the hearts and homes of so many people, would have the facts before them in passing these orders in council, and in taking the responsibility which every government is bound to assume, of exercising the right of dismissal of officials who have been charged with breaches of the law.


Mr. POWER:: Is the resolution intended
to have a retroactive effect so as to cover the Couture case, or is it only for the future?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The Couture case, I recognize, must now depend upon the discretion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce and upon that of the Prime Minister and of his oolleagues. I ask them, and I asked them at the outset, to exercise a discretion in this case in the way that I have suggested, namely, by grabbing an inquiry now, but to provide for the future I ask that we shall obviate difficulties, misfortunes and even possible injustices of this kind by making provision that these civil servants shall have, upon request, the right to an inquiry where they may have an opportunity of proving their innocence, although they are taking a responsibility there that one does not take in a court of justice, where every accused is deemed innocent until proven guilty. Under the English practice an official who is charged with offending against any statute, is dismissed by the government
Dismissals-Mr. Malcolm

only when the complainant has gone into the courts and procured an information or an indiotanent, and a judgment of the court that the man is guilty, so careful are they of preserving the rights and liberties of those employed in their civil service.


James Malcolm: Mr. Speaker, I intend to deal very briefly with this matter as the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) has reviewed the statements in the case, clearly, concisely and accurately. A member of parliament stated to the minister that he had, not hearsay, but personal knowledge of a civil servani having been actively engaged politically during, not one election, not two, but three elections. The hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George is too clever a lawyer to think that there was any delay in reporting on this man's offence in 1921 or in 1925. Those dates were mentioned purely to show that the man had been, not a late, but a consistent offender. Hon. gentlemen are aware that the practice followed has been a rule which has been accepted by governments for many years and we have no less an authority endorsing the general principle than the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) who, when speaking in the house on April 17 last, admitted that certain dismissals were made o.i his recommendation, which he contended, and which I contend, he had a perfect right to make.	*


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was under an order in council.


James Malcolm: Yes. In the case now under consideration the order was granted and the civil servant was dismissed. Everything that could be done to be just and fair to Mr. Couture with regard to his superannuation was done. The matter was discussed with the accountant of the department and a cheque was offered to Mr. Couture. The cheque was later returned, the Department of Justice, when the matter was referred to them, ruled that the governor in council had no authority to reinstate the man. There are two points which I have to consider. My hon. friend says, first, that the dismissal was a reflection on this man's honour. A dismissal for political partisanship is, in my opinion, no reflection on any man's honour or loyalty. It is no reflection except that the man chose to take an interest in party politics and at the same time to act as a civil servant of Canada. A civil servant of Canada has to make the choice between taking an active interest in party politics and
fMr. Cahan.]
holding his job, and I will say to my hon. friend that it is a very good thing for the Dominion of Canada that civil servants have to make that choice. We have evidence in other countries where civil servants are actively engaged in party politics, and I do not think their governments compare favourably with ours. This man's loyalty to the department is unquestioned. I believe Couture was a good public servant, but he apparently did not appreciate his job enough to keep out of politics.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Why not give him an opportunity to prove his case?


James Malcolm: Just a moment. I have to choose between the wrord of this man and that of a colleague or any other member of this house, I do not care whether he sits on this side or the other, who says that of his personal knowledge he knows a civil servant to be guilty. I have to choose between two men, and a member of parliament has the right to make a request of the minister.


Mr. MANION:: Does the minister mean
to suggest that if I made a complaint about somebody taking part in politics on behalf of his party, he would dismiss him?


James Malcolm: It is the right of every
member to make such a request.


Mr. HANSON:: Would the minister dismiss the man?


James Malcolm: It has not been the practice in the past to extend such a privilege to the opposition party, but that is the right of a member of parliament.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Has that right existed since 1918, since the Civil Service Act was passed?


James Malcolm: It has, and my hon.
friend knows it has been accepted by both parties. It was accepted on April 17 by the leader of the opposition.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does the minister w'ant the ho.use to understand that if a member on this side makes a charge on his personal responsibility that a civil servant has been guilty of political partisanship, the minister would dismiss him without investigation? That is the gravamen of the- matter.


James Malcolm: My hon. friend has the point entirely wrong.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, I have not.


James Malcolm: I say that when a
member of parliament makes a request of the minister for dismissal and states that to his

Dismissals-Mr. Malcolm
personal knowledge the civil servant has taken an active political part in an election, the minister has the right, if he believes the charges to be true, to dismiss without an investigation.


Mr. GEARY:: He has the right.


James Malcolm: That has been held, and it was held by the leader of the opposition.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I was dealing with the
1911 election before the Civil Service Act was amended.


Ernest Lapointe: The act did not change
anything in that respect.


James Malcolm: I am not going to make reference to the dismissals that took place in 1911, although I could refer to many if I chose in my own department. This is the only dismissal that has taken place in the Department of Trade and Commerce since I have taken charge, and I believed that my colleague knew what he was talking about when he said that this man had been consistently guilty of political partisanship. I am not going to deal with the acceptance of the principle of dismissal for political partisanship by citing dismissals in .the past, but I do want to refer to the way in which the matter was handled and which my hon. friend thinks was unfair. No good could have come from an investigation because the man could not be reinstated. The only justice that could be done to him was to give him back his contributions which were payable under the Superannuation Act. I had to choose between the statement of my hon. friend the Solicitor General, who did not say that he made these charges on some evidence of others but that he personally knew of the man's guilt, and Couture's statement. I was not going to open an investigation which could have done Couture no good. It could not have reestablished his honour because his honour was never questioned; his loyalty was never questioned. He simply chose to take part in party politics.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: And to violate a statute,
and it is on account of his violating the statute that he is charged with political partisanship.


James Malcolm: He does not violate any law of God or man at all.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: He was violating section 55
of chapter 22 of the revised statutes of Canada, which constitutes political partisanship, and that is the only ground on which the governor in council had t'be right to dismiss.


James Malcolm: That is not the point
I want to discuss. That is not the point, of my hon. friend's criticism at all. My hon. friend takes two grounds for criticism. He says that the whole principle should be changed and that this house should support the principle that when a member lays a complaint an investigation should necessarily follow immediately. I am going to submit to my hon. friend that in some cases complaints may be unjust. In cases in the past civil servants may have been dismissed on very slim charges. Does my hon. friend not think it is better to have our civil servants in Canada keep out of politics. I think the best administration will follow if our civil servants vote as they choose but do not actively engage in an election.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: We all agree on that.


James Malcolm: That is a principle we
are all agreed on.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Just before the house
rises, may I ask if the minister would bring down at three o'clock the order in council which was agreed upon by Sir W ilfrid Laurier and Sir Robert Borden?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: There was no order in council.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, I think so.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was an
agreement as to the rule, but no order in council.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think it was embodied
ia writing.
At one o'clock the house took recess.
The house resumed at three o'clock.


James Malcolm: Mr. Speaker, to review
very briefly the remarks I made before luncheon, I should like to point out to my hon. friend the leader of the opposition that I cannot find any orders in council pertaining to dismissals, except one order passed in 1908, which sets out that a complaint against a civil servant of political partisanship shall be made in writing. The Civil Service Act of 190S provides that a civil sea-want may be dismissed for political partisanship. The possible loss of position becomes one of the terms of employment of a civil servant; for he is employed on the understanding that if he engages in promoting the welfare of political parties he is liable to dismissal.
I agree with my hon. friend from St. Law-rence-St. George that Mr. Couture has done nothing for which he can be brought to
Dismissals-Mr. Malcolm

account in a civil or a criminal court, and that no penalty can possibly be imposed upon him. By the terms of his contract of employment he may lose his position due to the fact that the Civil Service Act under which he is employed provides that he may not do certain things. If on investigation the charges were substantiated the dismissal would of course be justified.
Undoubtedly there is an injustice which my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George points out. If the investigation proves that the charges were not of a sufficient serious nature to justify the dismissal, then the government finds itself in the position brought about by the ruling of the Justice department, that under the Civil Service Act it has no power to reinstate that man. He can only again enter the civil service by going through the regular channels prescribed by the Civil Service Commission.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I contend that in this particular case all the requirements of the Civil Service Aot of 1908 have been complied with and the practice followed by all governments since that time has been observed. Complaints of active political partisanship within the personal knowledge of a member of the house had been lodged in writing against an officer of my department. The charge stated that he had been guilty of active political partisanship on three occasions.
I may say that in my opinion it was the only charge which was sufficiently well founded to justify dismissal of an officer of my department since I took office. I took the word of my colleague, a member of the house, when he said that it was on his own personal knowledge that he preferred the charge; that indeed he had been a witness to the man's actions, and therefore knew that he was guilty.
hen Couture asked for an investigation into the charge, I referred the request to the member in question, who plainly said that he saw no reason for an investigation as he had personal knowledge that the man was guilty. In other words. I had either to believe the member of the house who very definitely made the charge, and who is in a position to defend his action, or to take the word of the officer who had been dismissed and whose position had been filled by the Civil Service Commission. Two years afterwards, further representations having been made to him, the member did write the letter read by my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George stating that he had no objection to an investigation. But my contention is that no good end could be served by granting the investigation. If I could have reinstated Couture I would have granted his request for an investigation.

Under the law as it stands to-day I can do nothing to put Couture back in his position, because the position has been filled by the Civil Service Commission. There will have to be a change in the act dealing with reinstatement before cases such as this can be dealt with.
In so far as the general principle of my hon. friend's amendment is concerned, I do not hold with it at all. As I have said, it is desirable that civil servants should have the freedom of exercising their franchise, but I think it is undesirable that civil servants should take part in party politics. If we adopt the principle that a minister must hold an investigation every time a member of the house charges that some civil servant has been guilty of an act of political partisanship for any party without leaving to the minister the right to turn down the dozens, yes, hundreds of applications that may come for dismissals, following a general election, then whoever are in charge of the departments will be in a turmoil of investigations, considering dismissals. I contend, no matter what party is in power, that the request must first of all be decided by the minister from the point of view of its seriousness, which will eliminate probably 90 per cent of the charges.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Is not that possible still?
That is quite possible.


James Malcolm: My hon. friend agrees
with that point. No minister is anxious to worry himself and the officers of his department with many dismissals; the minor requests he brushes aside. When members of the house, complaining against civil servants for being partisans, are forced to put their charges in writing and forced to say that they know the particular persons have been guilty of an offence which is a violation of the terms of employment they do some thinking before making the charge in writing; and I contend that the regulation in this respect has been of great benefit to the civil servants of Canada. But I do not think that the civil service of Canada will be benefited, or that civil servants will be any more secure in their position against complaints, if we adopt my hon. friend's amendment that, no matter from which member the complaint may come, it will be compulsory on the part of the minister to grant an investigation into the charge that has been brought forward.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I think the resolution calls for such an inquiry only before a dismissal; that is to say, before the governor in council may act, by dismissing the person whom complaint is made against, there shall be a. report from a commissioner Who has inquired into tihe charge.

Dismissals-Mr. Malcolm


James Malcolm: If I misinterpreted my
hon. friend's amendment-


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: That was my intention.


James Malcolm: -I will withdraw my argument in that regard; but I understood the amendment to imply that every complaint should call for an investigation.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: No, before dismissal, preliminary to dismissal.


James Malcolm: So far as that suggestion is concerned, there may be much merit in it. As to whether or not the adoption of that suggestion would involve a want of confidence in the government, I am not prepared to say. I would not support my hon. friend's amendment if it meant a want of confidence in the government.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I did not intend it as a vote of want of confidence.


James Malcolm: I shall have to leave it to some of my colleagues to interpret the meaning of the amendment. I was about to say that I should be willing to give the hon. member's suggestion very serious consideration, for I do not think the matter is one that can be settled without consideration.
So far as Couture is concerned, if the Solicitor General (Mr. Cannon) feels that the charge has not been established I shall have no objection to granting an investigation. I must say however that under the present ruling we cannot restore him to the position which has been filled by another. Should an investigation be held and it is proved that the man's offence was not of such a nature as to justify , his dismissal, all we can do is to try to place him in some other position. To that extent, if my colleague the Solicitor General thinks it advisable, I am prepared to go with my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George.


George Reginald Geary: I understood the minister to say that this is the only case of dismissal in his department since he took charge of it.


James Malcolm: Yes.


George Reginald Geary: There were hundreds of
other cases-


James Malcolm: I did not say hundreds.


George Reginald Geary: I understood the minister to
say so.


James Malcolm: I said that in the administration of departments of government there might be dozens or hundreds of minor [DOT]complaints.


George Reginald Geary: The minister has in mind, I gather, some complaints in his own department.


James Malcolm: Quite.


George Reginald Geary: Quite a number of them.


James Malcolm: Often.


George Reginald Geary: In what way would those
complaints differ from this one? I understand that in this case the Solicitor General added to his request for dismissal a sentence to the effect that he had personal knowledge of partisanship having been exercised. I should have thought that a written communication from any member of parliament asking for the dismissal of a civil servant on the ground of partisanship would imply personal knowledge on the part of the member; it would imply that the member, before bringing forward the complaint, had personal knowledge of partisanship on the part of the person complained against. Are we to take it that in none of the other cases to which the minister has referred has there been such an indication on the part of the member complaining as to personal knowledge? Is that the distinction?


James Malcolm: My hon. friend realizes,
as every hon. member does, that ministers constantly have complaints about civil servants to the effect that they have been engaging in partisan activities, but in a great many cases the evidence is hearsay. Frequently letters are written about men in the civil service; but unless a member of the house complaining is prepared to take responsibility in the matter and to say that he has personal knowledge, I think that ministers as a rule always turn down the consideration of any complaint. And I think it is right that they should.


George Reginald Geary: Perhaps the minister and
I are at cross purposes; I am speaking only of requests for dismissal coming from members-any member at all. I suppose a defeated candidate would be included in that category. I am speaking of them and of them only. Surely a request coming from a member, on his responsibility, for the dismissal of an officer must imply that he has personal knowledge of the matter whereof he complains. There is no hearsay about that. Does the Minister, in referring to many other cases, refer to those cases which have been stated in writing by members, but without the addition of such words as, " I have personal knowledge "? Are those the ones he has turned down?
Dismissals-Mr. Malcolm


James Malcolm: My hon. friend is quite
right. Members are inclined probably to make verbal complaints-


George Reginald Geary: I am speaking of written
complaints.


James Malcolm: -and verbal complaints are not considered; the order in council of 1923 covered that point.


George Reginald Geary: I am not speatking of them.


James Malcolm: So that to-day a complaint must be in writing. If a man writes complaining about a civil servant and says, " I have heard certain things," I do not take such a complaint seriously. If a member is not willing to say he has personal knowledge and is in a position to defend his complaint in the house, I am not prepared to dismiss a civil servant; I am not prepared to take action on hearsay evidence. That is the type of letter to which I pay no attention.


Mr. ADSHEAD:: Do I understand the minister to say that any member of this house, whether he be Liberal or Tory or Progressive, may write to the minister to say that he has personal knowledge that such-and-such a civil servant in the department has been engaged in political partisanship, and the minister will thereupon dismiss that civil servant?


James Malcolm: Not at all. But the
minister has a right to consider a complaint from any member of the house; that is my interpretation of the custom followed for years.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: It would be a defeated government candidate on whose recommendation the minister would act.


James Malcolm: A defeated government
candidate would not be a member of the house.


Milton Neil Campbell: But it is on the recommendation of defeated government candidates that very many dismissals take place.


James Malcolm: Not of appointments
under the act.
lion. LUCIEN CANNON (Solicitor General) :	The hon. member for St. Lawrence-
St. George (Mr. Cahan) has brought forward a matter with which I am particularly concerned, and he has broadened out the debate by incorporating in his suggested amendment reforms, complete and entire, in the system which has prevailed in Canada in relation to civil servants guilty of political partisanship, and the means whereby they may be dismissed. At the outset may I say, sir, that [Mr. Geary.)
I do not think it would be possible for this house to accept the amendment of the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George otherwise than as meaning that it implies a vote of want of confidence in the government, and in support of the interpretation I would quote Bourinot at page 424:
An amendment moved to the motion to go into committee of supply (or ways and means) does not necessarily involve want of confidence in the administration. When such an amendment simply affirms a general principle, or seta forth a public grievance, and does not directly or impliedly challenge the conduct or policy of the government, it is not. in a parliamentary sense, a motion of want of confidence-
The amendment brought forward by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George implies a challenge of the conduct of the government in connection with this particular matter, and therefore it is a motion of want of confidence,


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I do not follow that reasoning.


Lucien Cannon: I think Bourinot's reasoning is very simple. If on the motion to go into supply a member of the house expresses a general principle to which he desires the house to agree, it is not a motion of want of confidence, but if the amendment implies a criticism of the conduct of the government in any particular matter, it then becomes a motion of want of confidence.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Is this not merely the statement of a principle, without any particular application?


Lucien Cannon: I do not like to refuse
to allow my hon. friend to interrupt, but he has spoken for two hours while I have only forty minutes, and I am going to state my case in less than forty minutes if possible.
Now, Mr. Speaker, the matter brought up by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George is very simple. Many documents have been read; as a matter of fact the entire departmental file has been placed on Hansard, and the purpose for which that file was read is very obvious. Perhaps I might sum up the case and make it very clear and concise so that every hon. member of the house will understand it. A public official in the constituency which I represent had been in the employ of the government for a number of years, and after the elections of 1926, under the practice then existing, as sitting member for the constituency and upon my personal responsibility I wrote the Minister of Trade and Commerce asking for the dismissal of this official on account of partisanship. I do not

Dismissals-Mr. Cannon
withdraw one word of that letter which I wrote to the minister and I do not wish to lessen in any degree the responsibility which I assumed at that time and which I am quite willing to assume before the house and the *country to-day.
The principle at stake is a principle of the very highest order; the dignity of the house itself is concerned in this matter. If the member for a constituency can state from his own personal knowledge that an official or a public .servant of this country has acted in a partisan way, I say with no hesitation at all that if that member of parliament, be he a Tory or a Liberal, wishes to maintain his authority as far as his constituents are concerned, as well as the dignity of the house of which he is a member, there is one duty incumbent upon him to perform; that is, he should see to it that the official is removed from the civil *service. This always has been the rule and the practice, and just here I might recall the expression of opinion given by no less a member of the house than the leader of the opposition. Speaking in this house on April 22 of this year, and not dealing with what might have happened in 1911 but with what did happen last year in one of the western provinces, the leader of the opposition said:
I also recall that the late Sir Wilfrid Lau-rier approved of the general terms of that order.
That was the order in council which gave power to a member of parliament to ask for the dismissal of a civil servant for political partisanship.
Action was taken accordingly, and when last session the hon. member for Willow Bunch (Mr. Donnelly) was able to stand up in this house and say of his own knowledge that he believed a given person to have been guilty of political partisanship, you will recollect, Sir, that at once I said the incident was ended so far as we were concerned.
Those are the words of the leader of the opposition, spoken in this house this year; he said that the moment the hon. member for Willow Bunch (Mr. Donnelly) was in a position to get up in the house and state on his own responsibility that he thought a public official was guilty of political partisanship the matter was ended so far as he and his followers were concerned. Why should the attitude taken by the opposition at that time, expressed by the leader of the opposition, be altered through an amendment brought in this morning by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George? Are there to be two leaders of the opposition? Are there to be two attitudes on the same question? Are we to accept the policy laid down by the leader of the Conservative party in April which I
have just quoted from Hansard, or are we now to adopt a new platform as laid down by the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George, who at times is represented, at least in our papers, as leader of the Conservative party in the province of Quebec?
What are the facts of this case? I wish to say first of all that I have been a candidate in the county of Dorchester in the province of Quebec on nine different occasions; I have won some of my elections and have lost others, and I think if you inquired of my opponents you would find that as a rule I have been a good loser. Although I have represented the county of Dorchester either in the provincial house or in this federal house for the last fifteen years, if the official records of all these departments are looked up it will be found that during the whole of my career I have had only three officials dismissed from the service. I do not believe in political retaliation; when a fight is over I think we should forget the knocks and blows which were exchanged while the battle was on. However, certain cases are exceptional, and as I stated at the outset sometimes the very dignity of the member for the constituency is at stake. In this case my dignity and authority as a member of parliament and a member of the government was at stake.
Couture was appointed shortly after the election of 1911 by the then sitting member who is now a distinguished member of the supreme court of Quebec. Couture had had the inspector of weights and measures dismissed by the member and had taken his place, and the very manner in which he had obtained the situation showed that he was a political partisan. We had two elections in my constituency in 1917 and Couture took a very active part in both; during the election of 1921 he was very active; he was more than active in the election of 1925, but according to the general principle which I had laid down for my guidance as a public man ip my constituency of Dorchester, I did not ask for his dismissal. When I was holding a public meeting in the parish of St. Bernard in 1927, the parish where Couture lives, I had great difficulty in being heard. I think a member who has sat for a constituency can ask at least that his electors give him the privilege of being heard. What was the cause of the disturbance? The cause was a group of children on Couture's property, and Couture himself standing only a few feet away. That disturbance lasted for over half an hour and he never took any steps to stop it, nor did he do the least thing to allow me to be freely heard.
Dismissals-Mr. Cannon


An hon. MEMBER:: What a serious charge.


Lucien Cannon: I ask any member of this house, whether he sits on this side or on the other side, if he were attending a public meeting and a disturbance was being carried on, would he not in all fairness see that a proper hearing was given, not only to the candidate during the election but to the former member who had represented the constituency for several years? A few days after this meeting my opponent conducted a meeting in the parish-I do not wish to reopen the questions which were settled on polling day, because they were numerous and serious and could occupy the attention of any serious audience-and he took it upon himself to make a personal attack against myself. I would have been perfectly willing to allow that to pass, but a personal attack was made against my family, against my wife and against my children; Couture was present at that meeting and gave encouragement to the speaker.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: In what way? '


Lucien Cannon: If a member, no matter to what party he belongs, cannot have the right of being respected by public officials, it is about time that we closed the doors of this House of Commons and allowed someone else to handle the public business of Canada.
That is my stand in this matter. When those happenings occurred I publicly told Couture that if my party came back into power I would see that he was fired, and I have kept my promise. There are many Conservatives in the public service in the county of Dorchester, and I recognize and acknowledge their right of voting whichever way they desire, as long as they perform their duties as public officials to their own credit and to the benefit of our country. As long as I am a member of this house, I will not stand for any public official insulting either the sitting member or the candidate in any election.
If the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George desires to introduce a new principle, is he willing to make it retroactive? I have been the object of discussion to-day in the
House of Commons because of one dismissal in my county made under the circumstances I have just described. If I wanted to play politics in this matter I would ask the hon. gentleman to take cognizance of the list of those who were dismissed in the county of Dorchester in the year 1911 when there was a change in government.


An hon. MEMBER:: Read it.


Lucien Cannon: It is too long, I do not wish to delay the house.


An hon. MEMBER:: Put it on Hansard.


Lucien Cannon: I have a list of twenty-seven postmasters who were dismissed in 191112 by the then sitting member.


An hon. MEMBER:: Rural delivery?


Lucien Cannon: Not rural delivery postmasters. There was no investigation although the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George was then in active politics.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: When was that?


Lucien Cannon: Nineteen hundred and
eleven.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I was not in politics then.


Lucien Cannon: The hon. member may not have been in active politics but he was in what I wTould call potential politics. But did he protest?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Against what?


Lucien Cannon: Against these dismissals in the county of Dorchester by the then sitting member; twenty-seven postmasters kicked out without any inquiry of any kind being made.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I have no knowledge of that
matter.


An hon. MEMBER:: Read the names.


Lucien Cannon: Dismissals-Mr. Cannon
TheTe was an election in 1916 and I was missed without any inquiry being made as to running for office, but this gentleman was dis- his political partisanship. The list continues:
Post Office	Postmaster	Date of Dismissal	Cause of DismissalFir Grove	1912 1912 1917 1912 1912 1912 1912	Political partisanship.Frampton	Hennepin	it itHemeson	it utt uLangevin	It itO'Farrell	tt a
Even Irishmen were being fired for political partisanship. The list continues:
Post Office	Postmaster	Date of Dismissal	Cause of DismissalRavignan	1914 1913 1912 1912 1912 1917 1911 1917 1912 1912 1912 1912 1913 1913 1913	Political partisanship. << <<Riviere Raquette	Ruisseau a l'eau chaude	n ttSt. Abdon	a ttSt. Ansel me	tt uSte. Aur61ie	St. Benjamin	tt aSte. Germaine Station	it ttSte. Hen6dine	tt itSte. Marguerite de Dorchester	J. B. BSgin	a ttSt. Nazaire de Buckland	Ste. Rose de Watford	tt aSte. Sabine Station	tt uSt. Zacharie	tt aStandon	Unsatisfactory management and shortage.
We have at least one case in which there was cause for the dismissal recommended by the then member.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Those dismissals were all made before the Civil Service Act of 1918 was passed.


Lucien Cannon: Did the hon. gentleman or his party protest? Did Couture protest? Couture had been occupying the position of a man who had been thrown out without any inquiry.
I am coming now to what the hon. gentleman described this morning as the deathbed scene, and the terrible condition in which Couture's family might have been placed. I will say to the hon. member that it was no pleasure to me to have to take the action which I did take, but I took it because I thought I had not only the right to do so but a duty to perform.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: You took that action because of what took place at a meeting at which you were not present and of which you had no personal knowledge, according to your own statement.


Lucien Cannon: In 1911, in the very department that we are discussing now, inspector of weights and measures Mr. Bugeaud was dismissed for political partisanship in December of that j'ear. What about his family? What about the inquiry that the bon. gentleman is asking for? Mr. Guay was dismissed on January 1, 1912; Mr. Caldwell was dismissed on August 1, 1913, and Mr. Prefontaine was dismissed on October 1, 1913. These are four dismissals in the one office in Quebec, and Mr. Couture, whom the hon. gentleman has taken under his wing to-day, replaced one of those who had been dismissed.
The larger question remains: should this be changed? Some years ago it was proposed in France that the death penalty be abolished, and the president answered by saying: "Que messieurs les assassins commeneent." "Let the murderers give an example first." In 1911, 12,000 Liberal employees were dismissed without any inquiry. Will the hon. gentleman consent to make his amendment retroactive and allow those 12,000 employees to have an inquiry? That is a fair question. That is a fair way of putting the matter. Would the
327S
Dismissals-Mr. Pouliot

lion, gentleman allow his amendment to be retroactive in order that the twenty-seven postmasters in my constituency whose names were mentioned, be given an inquiry and reinstatement?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Certainly I would if any one of them ever asked for an inquiry and it was refused.


Lucien Cannon: I am perfectly willing to
accept the hon. gentleman's answer provided it is confirmed by his leader, because, as I stated at the outset, the attitude of the two hon. gentlemen on this matter is quite divergent. The leader of the opposition said that the right thing to do when a man is guilty of partisanship is to dismiss him.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I did not say that.


Lucien Cannon: I quoted from Hansard
what my hon. friend said.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I said: When the member says so of his personal knowledge.


Lucien Cannon: This is my case.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: The minister was not at
the meeting.


Lucien Cannon: At what meeting?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: At the meeting of Mr. Cote of which the minister complains.


Lucien Cannon: I am complaining of both meetings, the one where I addressed the electors and the one where Cote was.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: And the minister was not
present at Mr. Cote's meeting.


Lucien Cannon: I hope the hon. gentleman will be reasonable enough to admit that I know more about what took place in my constituency in 1926 than he did when he was in Montreal.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Quite so.


Lucien Cannon: The hon. gentleman makes a strong argument that Couture says that he should not have been dismissed. Has anyone ever heard of an official who was dismissed claiming that he was rightly so? I have not. To end this incident of a very minor character which has taken up already too much af the time of the house, because I have done }nly in one instance what other members have lone in many where their names have never been mentioned, let me say this: there has

been one case in my constituency. As to the larger issue whether the whole procedure should be changed, this is a matter of very serious policy which I leave to the opinion of the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: Mr. Speaker, I have just a few
words to say on this matter. I have heard the two-hour speech of the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan). If he goes to the Calgary stampede this year and meets some Indians there, they will probably call him "Chief Long Breath." The last issue of Life says that besides dance marathons, there might be chewing gum and teeth-brushing endurance contests. Why not have a speech marathon, not for the future, but with a retroactive effect? In this case, the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George would be an easy winner, not with his two-hour speech of to-day but with the six-hour speech he delivered two years ago. In France and in England an hon. member would be covered with ridicule if he spoke for two hours on a single case in regard 'to which he did not know the real facts.
When the Tories were in power, the people who were dismissed were as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sands of the desert. Now the Tories complain and when their friends make trouble during an election, they would like to have them promoted instead of dismissed. I am in favour of the freedom of the franchise for all the employrees in the public service; whether they are Tories, Grits, socialists or anything else, they should be entitled to enjoy their franchise with the greatest freedom. But when it comes to canvassing and making trouble at meetings, that is entirely different. I can speak freely on this subject because I have not asked for many dismissals in my constituency. There are some Tories amongst the civil servants in my constituency, but I do not bother about them. They can vote as they like. But if they cause trouble in meetings, they should be told that they cannot long retain their positions. I think this would be a good opportunity to inform all employees in the civil service to-day that if they want to make trouble during elections or at other times by canvassing against the candidates whoever they may be, they run the risk of being dismissed.
I take this opportunity of congratulating the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr Malcolm) and the Solicitor General (Mr Cannon) on their clear expose of the case.
Amendment (Mr. Cahan) negatived on division.

Fish Traps-Mr. Neill



SUPPLY-FISH TRAPS

['Certainly.']
Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Aibemi):: I
understand that this motion covers the estimates, not only of the Department of Trade and Commerce but of the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and therefore I should like to say a few words in connection with a subject that comes under the latter department. I am rather timid about introducing this, or, indeed, any subject in the house; I aim afraid of adding to that terrible reputation which was ascribed <to me yesterday, I see, by reading Hansard. I read it in Hansard because I did not hear a word of it at the time it was uttered. I have no objection to those sentiments being uttered in the house; they are his sentiments, not mine. Indeed, I read them with a certain amount of sympathy, because I recognized them as being the emanation of what I myself sometimes suffer from, namely, an over-quick temper and a bilious disposition. I have striven to be more successful than he, and I think I really have been, in concealing my mean disposition in that regard. I have remembered the doctrine put forward by Solomon. "H'e that ruleth his spirit is greater than he tihat taketh a city." I think I can stake my reputation for courtesy in this house up against that of the hon. leader, who gave me such a terrible reputation. Mr. Speaker, human nature is a curious thing-I am speaking generally now. Some men remind one of sausages. They are very thinskinned, smooth on the outside, but you never know how much of the real hog is in them until you get under their skin.
I wish to make a mild protest in connection with another matter, and that is the habit some hon. members have dropped into, unintentionally I believe, when they are making some remarks, perhaps a bit of biting criticism or an offensive remark about some other member, of speaking in so low a tone that while the remark is audible to the reporter and to the few members sitting around, it is not audible to the member to whom it is applied, and consequently he has no opportunity either to hear or to reply to it. I am quite sure that this is so opposed to any idea of courtesy or courage that I need only to mention it for hon. members to be more careful in the future in that regard.
As regards the Department of Marine and Fisheries, I want to bring up a matter in connection with fish traps. I should like briefly to outline the situation. On the 7th of April last I addressed the following letter to the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries: 78594-208
The Hon. P. J. A. Cardin,
Minister of Marine and Fisheries,
Ottawa.
Dear sir:
In Vancouver province just to hand I see notice that Judge Ellis has been appointed by you to inquire whether fish traps for salmon should be permitted in northern British Columbia.	_
I have heard rumours of this, but took it for granted that as I represent so many of the fishing interest of British Columbia, that 1 would have been given an opportunity of being heard before such a drastic step was taken.
I understood that for some years past, it has been the settled policy of this government not to allow traps in northern waters. Such has been repeatedly announced as the policy and has been carried out. Why then change it without notice, or at least give opportunity of changing it?
I think the step is bad policy, and equally bad politics. The policy has been carried out for some yeaTs. I have heard no demand for a change.
Is it permitted me to ask if there was any demand for a change, from whence did it emanate? Did any boards of trade, organizations of fishermen or of cannery men, ask for it?
Yours faithfully,
(Signed) A. W. Neill.
That was on April 7th, and I have not yet had a reply. On May 14th I brought the matter to the attention of the Prime Minister, on the orders of the day. I briefly stated the situation and asked if there might be an opportunity given for discussion of the matter in this house. I was promised a reply later, but I have not yet had one. Under date of May 31st, last Friday, I brought the matter up again in the house and said that I proposed to discuss the matter on the Marine and Fisheries estimates, and in order to be in a position to do so intelligently I asked if the report of the commissioner who had been appointed, and whose investigation at that time had certainly been completed, would be laid on the table for our guidance in the debate. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries replied as follows:
I shall do the best I can to meet the request of my hon. friend.
The report so far as I know has not yet been laid on the table; if it has been, I am ignorant of it. The estimates will soon be coming up and that is the only opportunity we shall have this session of discussing the matter. I again ask if the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will not lay this report on the table. I have a telegram from British Columbia to the effect that that report was mailed eight or nine days ago, so it must be in the possession of the government now. I do not want to discuss the matter at this



Supply-Trade and Commerce
stage, and I am mentioning it only that we may have the report before us when the estimates are being considered, and I would ask that some at least of the estimates be held over until we have had an opportunity to consider the report, and then we can discuss the matter intelligently. This is a matter of very considerable importance to a large number of people in British Columbia.


Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries):: I have no objection at all to undertaking to comply with the request of my hon. friend.


Alan Webster Neill: When? Will it be to-day?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Alan Webster Neill: Thank you.
Motion (Mr. Robb) agreed to.



Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to
inform the house that I have forwarded my warrants to the chief electoral officer for the issue of writs for elections in the electoral districts of Lanark, Frontenac-Addington and Laprairie-Napierville.


DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Laflamme in the chair.
Trade and Commerce-British and foreign news service, $32,000.
Mr. STEVENS:: Would the minister give a brief explanation?


James Malcolm: This is a grant made to Reuter's news service for distributing Canadian news items in all parts of Great Britain and in foreign countries. The service has been in existence for several years. The total number of news items pertaining to Canada distributed in 1928 was 7,335. Reuter's are distributing news items to a group of British papers, sixty-three in number, carrying out the terms of the agreement by which items of Canadian news are distributed throughout Great Britain and foreign countries. We find that this method is more economical than any other.


Mr. SPENCER:: Has the amount been
the same for a number of years?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Mr. SHORT:: Was not this item cut in half a couple of years ago, and increased again last year?


James Malcolm: Yes, the item was in the main estimates and increased in the supplemental.


Harry Bernard Short: Does the minister consider that we are getting good value for the expenditure of this $32,000?


James Malcolm: I can assure my hon. friend that we are getting very good value for it. In 1927-28 we had 13,571 news items regarding Canada wired 'by Reuter's to different papers in different countries of the world. The figure I gave a moment ago of 7,335 news items distributed in 1928 covers only three-quarters of the year. I do not want to weary the committee with a summary of the papers to which Reuter's distribute news items, but I can assure my hon. friend that in the opinion of my department we are getting a very good service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Commercial intelligence service, including miscellaneous expenditure in connection with the development and extension of Canada's trade, $750,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister might give us some explanation.


James Malcolm: This is an increase of $250,000 and is due to the opening of three new trade commissioners' offices and the necessary staffs in connection therewith, and to the contemplated opening of six new trade commissioners' offices and the embarking on a much wider program with a view to expansion of the activities of the department.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Where are the offices?


James Malcolm: Chicago and San Francisco, Oslo, Hong Kong and Havana.


Mr. CHAPLIN:: What does the minister expect to gain from an office in Chicago?


Hugh Guthrie: They will sell us more
goods.


James Malcolm: I cannot make any
definite pronouncement to the hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Chaplin) as to what business may result from contact with the Chicago market, but it is felt that there is a very great market in Chicago for certain Canadian products, just as there is in New York.


Robert James Manion: If they will let you into that market.


James Malcolm: It was decided to open up trade offices in Chicago and San Francisco to allow Canadian shippers interested to get in closer touch there than they could through the New York office.
32S1

Svpply-Trade and Commerce


James Dew Chaplin: I quite understand the desirability of making reasonable efforts to get into the Chicago market-if the Americans wish us to go there. The trouble is that they do not wish us to go there. Why should we spend money in Chicago when we know that there is not the slightest chance of selling them our goods?


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend has had enough experience of the Department of Trade and Commerce to know that our office in New York is of very great service m keeping our shippers in touch with foreign buyers who are visiting that city. I do not think our trade commissioner in Chicago will do any less valuable work than has been done in New York. Many Canadian business men are strongly of the opinion that trade offices in Chicago and San Francisco would give just the same excellent results as have followed the establishment of our trade office in New York. A great many oriental buyers go to San Francisco. We feel that we would be doing a good stroke of business by establishing a trade office there to get in touch with buyers who might be induced to come to Canada. The same remarks apply to Chicago.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister is too good
a business man to expect to "put that over." People who want to sell goods go to the place where the market is; they do not depend on an outside competitor to provide them with the market.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Do those offices do anything in connection with the sale of cereals and other agricultural products?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Will the minister name
me a single officer of the Department of Trade and Commerce who did anything last year in connection with the sale of wheat?


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
is quite right in regard to that, because in so far as the sale of wheat is concerned it is usually sold on contract, and I do not think a trade commissioner could be of very much assistance in that regard or in the sale of newsprint. I may tell my hon. friend from Lincoln that a few days ago a Canadian business man reported to us that, although the Chicago office has been open only two weeks, when he called there he found fourteen men waiting to make inquiries of our commissioner with regard to the market for Canadian commodities which they wanted to sell.


Richard Bedford Bennett: To sell to us?
78594-208i


James Malcolm: No; these men were trying to sell their commodities in Chicago, and were asking for assistance from our trade commissioner.


James Dew Chaplin: Could the minister tell us one thing they ever sold?


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
is a little unfair. The office has been opened only two weeks. I am quite frank to say that the experiment looks advisable to me. If it does not prove so, and the commissioner at that point cannot show that he has been benefiting the Canadian shipper, then I think the opening of the office is subject to criticism.


James Dew Chaplin: Surely, the minister will
find it very hard to prove that the trade commissioner succeeds in doing anything on behalf of Canadian shippers. How can he Show us that the trade commissioner could do anything?


James Malcolm: My hon. Mend knows
that these offices can show what sale3 they make. My deputy has just handed me a memorandum from the director of commercial intelligence stating that one outstanding example of the year's work, so far as the alertness on the part of our trade commissioners is concerned, was reported by one of the firms who benefited. This 'has to do with an agricultural product-apples.	Our trade commissioner at Brussels discovered in November that there was going to be a very excellent opportunity for the sale of Canadian apples. He took the matter up with Mr. Forsyth Smith, the trade commissioner at Liverpool. Mr. Smith notified the Department of Agriculture here, who got in touch with the shippers of apples in the maritime provinces, and for the first time in history, through the activity of these men, we have shipped 85,000 ban-els of apples this year to Belgium, valued at $467,000. That market had apparently been left in abeyance until the trade commissioner saw its possibilities and informed our shippers. I think my hon. friend realizes that from time to time we get many letters of appreciation of the -work done by our trade commissioners. I admit that the work which passes through these offices cannot be tabulated, because much depends on the energy of the man selling his goods, his prices, tariffs and other considerations; but that our trade commissioners are of great assistance to Canadian shippers can be borne out by the letters we receive from the shippers themselves.


James Dew Chaplin: When the minister is
asked a question about Chicago, he switches over to Brussels. He puts me in mind of

Supply-Trade and Commerce
another minister who was instrumental a few years ago in making a treaty with Belgium. He told us in the same flowing language about the enormous quantities of butter the treaty would enable our dairymen to sell to Belgium. "Why," he said, "already contracts have been made in Montreal." But that butter never got into our export returns; it melted somewhere. At the same time the Minister of Justice said:	"We are not making this treaty
for the old habitants of Jacques Cartier's time, we are making it for the present day farmers of Quebec." I reminded him at the time that the old people who have been dead two hundred years sold just as much butter to Belgium as do their present day successors. The Minister of Trade and Commerce follows the same line-now he tells us about apples. I do not object to making an arrangement through our trade commissioners with people who want to trade with us. But what is the use of making trade arrangements with people Who put their tariff up so high that we cannot ell to them. I do object to.spending money in a country whose people say deliberately they will not trrde with us, that they will put up their tariff so high that it will effectively exclude our products from their market. That is what has hapened in France, and I told the minister a few years ago what would happen there. We enter into a treaty with them, giving them a fixed rate of duty, and we allow them to impose against us a rate of duty variable from day to day. They have changed their rate of duty so that our trade has vanished, and now I understand that wheat, although we made a treaty with them by which we got a minimum tariff, has now gone up, and is going up still further. And it will continue to do so without our being able to do a thing, because we have a stationary tariff.


Mr. HARRIS:: Before the minister replies to the hon. member I want to make one or two observations. In his last remarks the minister had something to say about letters he had received from Canadian shippers. I should like him to say a word or two with reference to the letters that he is receiving from shippers who are largely in Europe and abroad. I venture the opinion that never in the history of the Department of Trade and Commerce has there been so much correspondence from manufacturers who find their domicile on the European continent; and at the same time the statistics will show that we are presently receiving from our good neighbour to the south more in the line of manufactured goods than perhaps at any other time in the history of this Domin-

ion. In that same connection I want to point out that a situation has arisen in Canada-the statistics will prove it-which is going to be very embarrassing for this country as one year succeeds another. It is this: the general average of prices in the United States to-day, on commodities made from raw materials which are abundant in this country, is on a level of 10 to 20 per cent higher than are the selling prices of manufactured goods from these raw materials which are enjoyed in this Dominion. This situation arises: immediately there is a small shortage of raw material in that great consuming country of 110,000,000 people, we find that the manufacturers over there come to Canada and take away from the manufacturers of this country their source of raw materials; if they do not take away the raw materials they so enhance the price of raw materials to the manufacturers of this country that one by one those manufacturers find themselves no longer in the position of manufacturers but rather of dealers in perhaps the same finished commodities, buying those finished commodities on the European continent and bringing them here to hold their trade.
The minister in his last words told this house that he was well pleased with the letters he was receiving from shippers in this country. I want him in fairness to the house to make a few observations with regard to the letters he is receiving from the shippers in other lands. To enlarge the point a little further; it is a well know fact that the duty against commodities coming in from the European continent is not nearly so high coming into Canada as that duty is against these European manufacturers going into the United States. The result is that those engaged in industry find that their market price is set by the market price which the shippers in Europe are able to make. The market price for a large part of our commodities is set, not perhaps so much in London and Liverpool, as in days gone by, but in Hamburg, Paris, Lyons, Brussels, Antwerp and Rotterdam. They cannot get their goods into the United States. I hesitate to make the statement- the minister no doubt will enlarge the point for us-but I venture the opinion that they dump those goods into Canada, so that the manufacturer who is trying to make a livelihood in this country finds himself on the one hand deprived of the raw material for the manufacture of his goods, by reason of the fact that the general level of prices in the United States for the finished commodities is a little higher than it is in Canada-finds himself, I say, deprived of that raw material -and at the same time finds his market

Supply-Trade and Commerce
flooded by finished material produced in Europe and Great Britain. I would ask that the minister be good enough to see to it that every possible protection that is given to us in the statutes as they exist is taken advantage of, so that in the final analysis we shall not remain between the upper and the nether millstones in the matter of industry in this country.
I had the pleasure last year of directing to the minister's attention another point, and I hope that when he makes his reply he will tell us what is being done in that connection. That particular point, hon. gentlemen will remember, had something to do with this fact. Europeans find themselves able to enter their goods into Great Britain free of duty. Great Britain, on the other hand, finds herself able to ship goods to Canada under the British preference. We are glad to have the British preference, but we desire that those who are shipping into this country under that preference shall play fair. We do not want them to ship their commodities into this country under a preference and at the same time, in the same month, replenish their own supply, for their own consumption, from Europe, using the British preference just for the sole purpose of being able to manufacture over there and ship goods into Canada. We do not want them to ship goods under the preferential tariff and at the same time supply their home market with goods manufactured in Europe under conditions such as every hon. member knows exist on the continent. If this process continues, it is not too much to say that it is only a matter of time when we shall find in Canada that our standard of living, of which we make such a boast and are rightly so proud, will deteriorate to the standard of living under which those people in Europe are living to-day, and to which we do not like to refer. I should like the minister to enlarge on these two or three phases of the present trade situation and to give to the committee some idea of what is being done to look after the interests of those people in our midst who are employed in Canadian industry.


James Malcolm: In reply to my hon. friend, who objected strongly to the opening of an office in Chicago, on the ground that we should not establish an office in a country whose tariff was unfavourable to the entry of Canadian goods, I can only say that I should not care to take the stand that we ought not to try to sell our goods to anyone who will buy them. I should not like to take the stand, that because the United States decided to raise their tariff on two
or three items we should step out of the market and say we cannot do anything. Canadian business men have represented to the department the advisability of this country having offices in Chicago. Whether or not those offices are going to be very helpful I will not venture to prophesy, but I think they will. I do think that until it is shown that the offices have not been helpful, it cannot be argued that they should not be established. I fully admit what my hon. friend says; the United States so frames its tariffs as to make it very difficult for us to trade with that country. But that we do trade with the United States the hon. member does not deny; he does not deny that we send many commodities to the country to the south of us. I will not bother to give the list.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Three-fifths consists of
wood and wood products.


James Malcolm: A good deal of it, yes.
With regard to the remarks of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett) with reference to assistance in the sale of wheat, I may say that only on one or two occasions have our men found themselves able to be of much assistance in this direction. Last year in Mexico, our commissioner, Mr. Wilde, did endeavour to be of assistance to Canadian shippers in a general way by getting some of the Mexican buyers to take Canadian wheat. He succeeded in selling in the year about $300,000 worth. I happen to have his report on the matter before me. Our men in Italy at present are making a survey to assist in getting Italy to buy more of our hard durum wheat, which was under discussion the other day.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They have placed a duty of 75 cents a bushel on that wheat.


James Malcolm: I quite appreciate that
fact, if that be true, it will be harder for our men, but still because we have duties against us I cannot hold that we should give up the work of trying to promote trade through, our comercial intelligence service, which was started many years ago and which has been carried on under many governments. I believe Canadian exporters are of the opinion that the service has been of vast assistance to them, and I think it can be made of more assistance. As a matter of fact I am free to say, without desiring to criticize my colleagues, that I do not think we are more than scratching the surface in the way of giving assistance to the business men of Canada through commercial intelligence. I believe a very great

Supply-Trade and Commerce
deal more help can be given than has been given, and if I were on the opposite side of the house and one of my hon. friends were minister I would be likely to criticize him for not opening more trade offices.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It depends where they
are opened.


James Malcolm: I quite agree with my
hon. friend that there is not much use in opening offices in places where it is difficult to do business, but I do not admit that because it is difficult we should not try to do business. I do not think we should take everything lying down.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


James Malcolm: I do not think we should refuse to go into the markets of the United States; as far as I am concerned I am just as anxious to sell there as anywhere else-


Richard Bedford Bennett: We have not a trade
office at Geneva, have we?


James Malcolm: That is a diplomatic
office to which my hon. friend is referring; of course, he is a lawyer and he knows more about diplomacy.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister made a
reference to hard durum wheat. Will he be good enough to explain what he means by a hard durum wheat?


James Malcolm: Durum wheat is a very
hard, flinty wheat, as my hon. friend probably knows better than I do.


Richard Bedford Bennett: A macaroni wheat.


James Malcolm: Yes. The word "durum" is a trade name for this particular wheat, which is largely grown in Manitoba. It does not grade in with our red spring wheat at all; it does not mill the same and the flour millers do not use it. It has found its outlet in the macaroni mills on the continent, and according to my information it cannot be mixed with our red spring wheat because of the difference in texture. It is not sold on the exchanges to the extent spring wheat is sold; it is disposed of in smaller parcels and there is a smaller quantity grown.


Hugh Guthrie: I would like to ask a
question in regard to the markets for wheat. I have been informed by people in the grain trade that practically all the wheat for European consumption is bought by a single firm in Liverpool; I am told that one house in Liverpool buys for fifteen European countries. Can the minister tell me whether or not that is correct?
IMr. Malcolm.]


James Malcolm: I believe that statement is rather exaggerated.


Hugh Guthrie: Among the countries
named by my informant were France and Italy, and I recall an incident which took place ait the beginning of the session, when the Minister of Finance informed the house that the trade figures did not correctly represent the trade between Canada and France, because he had found that some wheat consigned to Great Britain had eventually reached France. My informant tells me that this wheat was bought by a firm in Britain and the destination changed to France while the wheat was on the Atlantic. It was really an export from Canada to Great Britain; the profit was made in Great Britain, and it wa3 not an export to France at all. Great Britain exported that grain to France.


James Malcolm: I think that is true.


Hugh Guthrie: And I am told that the
firm which bought that grain for France buys all the grain for Italy and thirteen other countries as well. I am to'ld that there is no competition at all in the purchasing of grain at Liverpool because this one house controls the situation and buys for practically all the European countries which import grain. If that is so I -can understand the lack of competition, and perhaps that is reflected in the price offered.


James Malcolm: I hardly think that statement is absolutely correct. The pool has some selling offices on the continent, and they are extending those offices; at the moment they are discussing opening an office in Milan, and in fact we have been asked to make some inquiries for them in that regard. They now have an agent in Milan and also have some agents in France. I do not want to labour the point raised by my hon. friend with regard to the crediting of exports to Great Britain, but I think hon. members generally realize that there is a difficulty in compiling consumption figures as against actual trade figures. We do not know whether all the newsprint we sent to the United States actually remains in that country; they may reexport small quantities of it.


Hugh Guthrie: Yes, but in that case we export directly to the United States, while in regard to the grain the export was made to Great Britain and the Minister of Finance tried to switch it to show that it was really an export to France.


James Malcolm: It would be an export
to France if the grain left Montreal, as is often

Supply-Trade and Commerce
the case, consigned to a Liverpool broker who bought it for delivery with the option of more than one point of destination. The grain might be diverted to France or to Belgium.


Hugh Guthrie: But the export was to
Great Britain.


James Malcolm: It would be a sale to
Great Britain, but the consumption figure would be shown by France. I think my hon. friend will agree with that.


Hugh Guthrie: I think it is artificial.


James Malcolm: France and Belgium
both keep their figures according to the country ' of origin; this would be shown as Canadian grain, while we show it as a sale to Great Britain.


Hugh Guthrie: The object of the Minister of Finance was to give a favourable impression with regard to our trade with France under his treaty.


James Malcolm: I quite appreciate that.


Mr. EVANS:: I understood the minister
to say he was opening a trade office in Chicago. What class of goods will Chicago probably buy from us?


James Dew Chaplin: Is it proposed to open
any other offices in the United States in addition to the one at Chicago?


James Malcolm: No. I cannot tell my hon. friend what commodities we might sell in Chicago but I can give him a few items as to trade which has been the direct result of the work of our New York office this year. That office has been responsible for the sale of lumber to the extent of $3,750, for the sale of canned salmon to the extent of $-1,800,000. They have also made some direct sales of Canadian cattle and there is a trade developing between Canada and the United States in certain varieties of biscuits, although this year that trade amounted to only $158,000.


John Evans: May I take it that these
trade commissioners will be experts in appraising the values of the different goods sold in the different countries of the world1? Last year two appraisers were appointed for cities in Germany, and I want to ask the minister if the knowledge obtained by these commissioners with regard to the values of different goods will be available to us?


James Malcolm: I am sorry; I did not
quite understand my hon. friend's question.


John Evans: Will the knowledge and
information obtained by these commissioners in the different countries, with regard to the values of different commodities, be available
to us?


James Malcolm: I can assure my hon.
friend that we have the statistics here with regard to most foreign countries, but I do not know which commodity he would like inquired into.


John Evans: Anything we have to sell.


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
realizes that the very duty of a trade commissioner in a foreign country is to survey the field and, if he finds any opportunity for trade, to forward that information here. It is distributed from the commercial intelligence office here to the various exporters, or the trade commissioner may communicate' direct with the Canadian industrialist who is likely to be able to fill the orders the trade commissioner believes can be obtained. His job is to study the market in order to help the Canadian exporter.


Robert James Manion: Does he take the orders?


James Malcolm: I can assure the hon.
member that he comes mighty close to it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: At times he comes too
close.


James Malcolm: He gives every assistance to Canadian firms.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Does he assist the live
stock business in any way?


James Malcolm: Yes, I think every branch of industry is referred to our trade commissioners for information as to available markets. After all is said and done, I think my hon. friend realizes that the question asked by the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Manion) is rather a pertinent one. The hon. member asked if he actually took the orders. That is not his duty. His duty is to assist Canadian exporters in every way 'he can; find information for them and help them to establish connections and agencies. Since the commercial intelligence department was started years ago, I do not think it can be said that any Canadian exporter has received anything but a courteous answer and the utmost assistance when he made inquiries of our offices abroad.


Mr. KAISER:: How many countries import wheat from us and how many countries import our flour?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Malcolm: I have not the statistics as to the countries to which we sell our commodities.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Every European country
buys our wheat.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: The figures I have indicate that thirty-six countries import our wheat and some ninety countries import our flour.


James Malcolm: That is possibly correct.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Are we encouraging the exportation of wheat as against the exportation of flour; how is it that we are able to send our flour to so many countries and our wheat to so few?


James Malcolm: I think the hon. member must realize that every country in the world does not grind wheat.


Henry Elvins Spencer: With reference to the exportation of wheat, I would advise the committee that the pool have agencies both in France and Italy.


James Malcolm: They have an agent in
Italy, not an agency.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I congratulate the minister upon opening more trade agencies in the United States, as I think we have waited too long to do this. Although the American tariff is agaiuist us, if the United States manufacturer takes full advantage of that tariff there is no reason why our goods should not go over the tariff wall. Would the minister advise the committee of the number of trade agencies which we have and where they are located?


James Malcolm: We have offices in Melbourne, Australia; London; Calcutta; Glasgow; Hamburg; Liverpool; Paris; Buenos Aires and Rio de Janeiro on the east coast of South America; Lima on the west coast of South America; New York; Bristol; Milan; Mexico City; Havana; Shanghai; Auckland; Kobe; Batavia; Kingston; Jamaica; Brussels; Rotterdam; Pert of Spain; Dublin and Cape Town. The new offices will be located at Hong Kong; Panama; Oslo; Athens; Chicago and San Francisco.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Could the minister advise the committee how many trade agents or commissioners the United States have in Canada?


James Malcolm: I am sorry but I cannot give the hon. member that information.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They call them commercial agencies.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Would the department
have that information?
fMr. Kaiser.]


James Malcolm: It can be secured for
the hon. member if he desires it. I think they are called trade commissioners, but I do not know how many offices are established in Canada.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They have one here in
Ottawa.


Joseph Henry Harris: Would the minister be
good enough to answer the questions I asked?


James Malcolm: I thought the hon. member was making a speech, and I did not get the import of his questions.


Joseph Henry Harris: If the minister wants a
speech we can oblige him any time he is ready. I asked the minister to make some observations to the house with regard to the amount of service which is being given to importers to this country who are bringing European and other goods to Canada and supplying a demand which could very readily be supplied by our own home industries.


James Malcolm: The whole object of our commercial intelligence department is to assist Canadians who desire to export; it has nothing whatever to do with the importing of goods. Our trade commissioners do not assist Canadian merchants to find commodities; that is not their job. The trade commissioner's job is to help the Canadian exporter find a market. I hope the hon. member does not think that the work of the Canadian commercial intelligence department has been based on the principle of helping to buy foreign goods? It is based on the principle of selling Canadian goods abroad. [DOT]


Joseph Henry Harris: But they are wandering
into the other line of endeavour.


James Malcolm: Oh, no.


Joseph Henry Harris: My next question had to
do with the commodities from Europe finding their way into Great Britain and replacing consumption there, and Great Britain in turn exporting them to Canada under the British preference. I asked this same question last year and perhaps the minister has had a chance to think it over and may be able to give me a reply this year?


James Malcolm: I do not think the hon. member is fair in asking the Minister of Trade and Commerce, when he is putting through estimates on commercial intelligence, to go into a question which belongs properly to the Minister of National Revenue.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Or National Defence.


James Malcolm: Perhaps. As to the
hon. member's suggestion that commodities of continental manufacture might come via

Supply-Trade and Commerce
Great Britain and enter Canada under the British preferential tariff, I think he must recall the discussion which took place a short time ago in the house, when the Minister of National Revenue was discussing the enactment of the 50 per cent British labour content requirement. That matter comes purely within the jurisdiction of the Department of National Revenue and this vote has nothing whatever to do with it.


Joseph Henry Harris: The third question had to
do with the export from this country of raw material. Are our trade commissioners finding markets for this raw material? Would the minister give the committee some information with regard to how the work of the offices would be divided up as between raw materials and manufactured goods? In other words, how much emphasis has the minister given in his instructions to these trade commissioners as to the service they should give in connection with t'he sale of raw materials as against manufactured goods?


James Malcolm: The work of the Canadian trade commissioner is the same as that of any other public servant, he is Supposed to be of assistance to Canadian exporters. A Canadian exporter may desire to export newsprint and may ask for a survey. A Canadian exporter may desire to . export wood pulp and he may ask the trade commissioner to secure for him some information as to possible markets for that commodity. He may ask the commissioner to find a market for pulpwood. I am giving these illustrations advisedly, because any man who believes in eihployment in this country knows that it is better to export newsprint than to export wood pulp, and it is better to export wood pulp than to export pulpwood. I hope t'he hon. member does not think that the trade commissioner has it within his jurisdiction to dictate to the exporter and say to him that he is not doing the right thing when he does not grind his pulpwood up and sell it in the . form of paper. These men are employed for the service of Canadian exporters, no matter what their line of business may be. I can quite conceive that my hon. friend might say that we should not ship any finished leather to New York, but if we can ship leather and cannot ship shoes, why not rfiip leather? I do not think it is within the province of the trade commissioners to dictate; it is their duty to serve. The commercial intelligence branch is a service branch for which this house votes money. It gathers information which it is difficult for business firms to obtain in foreign countries, and
supplies the information to Canadian exporters. It is not a department which should dictate governmental policy. It has to do the best it can under whatever policy may be in effect.


Joseph Henry Harris: Surely the minister must
admit that they have direction. He does not want to leave with the house the impression that they are merely employed on surveys for some of the Canadian exporters. * Have they enough business from Canadian exporters to keep them employed 100 per cent of their time? There must be some portion of their time when they are looking for something to do, and when they receive direction from the minister as to what sort of service they are going to render. Will the minister tell us what these trade commissioners are doing during the portion of their time that they must find on their hands when they are not making a particular survey for some exporter of some particular commodity? There must be some guiding policy given by the minister, and surely we have a right to know what surveys are being made and what they consist of.


James Malcolm: The trade commissioners representing Canada do not waste much time. We have some extremely good men in the service. As regards their not having direction,
I do not think the trade commissioners ever had any better direction than they have today under Mr. Chester Payne, the director of the commercial intelligence service. My hon. friend would like some information. May I read the progress reports of the office in Buenos Aires giving new business secured for Canadian firms directly by the office amounting to $164,888.


Richard Bedford Bennett: For how long a period?


James Malcolm: This is the new business secured during the year. Newsprint sold through the office by the efforts of Commissioner McCoH amounted to $40,000. He sold $31,000 worth of radio supplies. Elastic webb, which is another article that we have been able to introduce into the Argentine, was sold to the extent of $20,000 worth. These are not big items, but they are articles which have not been sold there before by Canadian exporters. There were $15,000 worth of rubber shoes and $14,750 worth of storage batteries sold. Eighteen new agencies were established during the year in the Argentine republic. The market was investigated on certain items for eighty-eight different firms who asked for investigations. Our total exports to the Argentine republic in 1928 amounted to $11,085,000 and I think in 1929 Mr. McColl was able to show

Supply-Trade and Commerce
an increase from $11,085,000 to $14,493,000. I feel that as respects our exports to the Argentine, a country which is competitive with us in regard to wheat and other grain products but not with regard to manufactured products, the result of Mr. MoCoM's work of the year has been very satisfactory.


Harry Bernard Short: I notice among the list of agencies read by the minister, he does not mention Newfoundand. Are there any commercial agencies in Newfoundland?


James Malcolm: We have no trade commissioners in Newfoundland.


Harry Bernard Short: Does the minister not think that a trade commissioner in Newfoundland rnuld secure a great deal more business for his country than a trade commissioner in Chicago? This is one of our own dominions vithin a short distance, especialfy of the maritime provinces, which imports practically all the manufactured articles and a great deal of the food products it uses. I am told that the bulk of its imports to-day is from the United States, of the very articles which could be supplied by Canada. There has been of late a great deal of discussion in the newspapers with reference to Canadian trade with Newfoundland, and all the articles are condemning the government of Canada for not appointing a trade agent in Newfoundland and going over to the cities of the United States where the markets are practically closed against us, establishing agencies there and letting trade that is right at our own doors be captured by the United States. This is a matter that the Department of Trade and Commerce could very well look into. The trade that is nearest home is always the most satisfactory to have. We could supply many of the commodities that the people of Newfoundland are to-day importing from the United States; but if the government does not think that trade is worth looking after and prefers to establish agencies in Chicago and other United States cities where the tariff is so high against us, I think the government is showing very poor business judgment. I thought I would draw the matter to the attention of the minister, because there are splendid opportunities for trade with Newfoundland.


James Malcolm: We have looked upon Newfoundland as being a very easy country to reach, and one of our own men occasionally goes there to make a survey. At one time there was a trade commissioner's office in Newfoundland and a former minister thought it advisable to close the office because there was not enough work to keep the trade com-EMr. Malcolm.]
missioner busy. We had contemplated, if we succeeded in making a proper tariff agreement with Newfoundland, reopening an office. Our business with Newfoundland is not very difficult to look after and it is hard for a man in that country to find enough work to keep him busy. He has not much travelling to do because the business is practically all in the one city, namely, St. John and it is in the hands of a limited number of firms. Our trade with Newfoundland amounts to about $11,000,000 and is quite substantial.


Harry Bernard Short: It might be double that
amount.


James Malcolm: It might be, if the Newfoundland firms found it profitable to import from Canada. My hon. friend will realize that Canada has not had any favourable tariff consideration from Newfoundland in the past. The rate of duty is the same on a Canadian article as on a United States article and it is not always easy for the Canadian exporter to increase his business. We are suggesting that Newfoundland should give us an empire preference. If that were done we would probably be justified in opening an office there.


Harry Bernard Short: Is it not a fact that Newfoundland just recently tried to negotiate a trade agreement with this country but did not meet with very much success? Did their Prime Minister not visit Ottawa within the last few months and go away very much discouraged with the reception he got in regard to trade relations?


James Dew Chaplin: I do not quite like the
idea of miy hon. friend from Digby trying to encourage the minister to establish a trade agency in Newfoundland. My experience from a business point of view is that wherever these trade commissioners have meddled, they have interfered with trade instead of benefiting it. My own company, coming down to personal matters, are presently and for a number of years have been doing a very fine trade with Newfoundland. Formerly we did a fine trade with France before the government monkeyed with it, but when they made their French treaty they cut us off entirely from the French market, and that is my reason for saying that I would very much prefer them to leave Newfoundland alone.


Richard Bedford Bennett: If they are going to
make a treaty, yes.


James Dew Chaplin: Yes, because I am not at all sure of the benefits of their treaty-making.
32S9

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Richard Bedford Bennett: Every one they have
made has been a failure.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister a few minutes ago stated the amount of canned salmon that had been sold in New York owing to representations made by our office there. I would like to inquire whether this was imported into the United States for home consumption. or was reexported from the United States. The minister also said that a considerable trade had been worked up in biscuits.


James Malcolm: A small trade.


James Dew Chaplin: My objection to opening
offices in the United States is based on my experience. Whenever my company or any other company that I ever had anything to do with worked up a business in the United States, just as soon as we got the business established, the United States immediately shut off the whole thing by raising the tariff overnight, and I say that simply to open an office in a country like that is an impossible business proposition. It is not right to spend the money on it, because we do not get any lasting benefit from it. I know that, and the minister knows it just as well as I do.


James Malcolm: The minister can speak
feelingly on that point.


James Dew Chaplin: Very likely, if he has had anything like the experience that I have had.
I have got so that I leave it alone entirely.
I do not want any Canadian money spent in opening up offices in the United States, in Chicago or anywhere else. You can waste money enough without doing that. My experience has been that just as soon as you work up a trade with the United States it is shot to pieces overnight by an increase in their tariff, and they do not have to wait for congress to meet to raise the tariff.


Robert James Manion: I wish to offer a suggestion to my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and that is a method by which he might	save	this	whole expenditure. Iassume that this vote is in the estimates for the purpose of helping Canadian business and Canadian business men. My hon. friend himself is a well-known business man, and I think	he	will	agree with my suggestionprivately, although he may not publicly; that is to	cut	out	this	item altogether and tomake	a move	that	will cost this country
nothing but will bring about far better results than the expenditure of this 8750,000 for trade agencies in foreign countries. Let us treat *other countries in tariff matters as they treat
us. That is my personal opinion of what we should do. By doing that we would hold the home market, and even if our people did not get the foreign markets because of foreign tariffs, we would get the home market, and in all probability, knowing our attitude, foreign countries would not raise their tariffs so high against us, and we would therefore increase our trade with foreign countries as well, and all that could be done without the expenditure of this money. I am not suggesting cutting out the vote. I am suggesting a method of supplementing the minister's efforts to obtain trade with foreign countries, and that is to treat other countries in tariff matters as they treat us, which would enable us to hold our own home market and get much more of the foreign market than we otherwise would do, because foreign countries then would not treat us with as little consideration as they now do.


Thomas Cantley: There is not a man in
this house who is better able to protect his business thlan the minister, and there is no greater protectionist. His business enjoys the highest rate of protection that the Canadian tariff affords. That is true; the minister need not shake his head. In addition to that, he sees to it that a considerable proportion of his raw material comes in free. I do not think that the hon. member who has jusit spoken can teach the minister very much about protecting the interests of his own business. I leave that for the consideration of the minister and of the committee.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: I was rather interested in noticing that we had two offices in South America. I have sometimes thought, and I wonder, if the minister has, that there are good possibilities of increasing our trade there. It has appeared to me that possibly the South American countries offer the most promising field for our exports in many lines of goods that we can find in the world to-day. While, of course, the minister undoubtedly understands his business a good deal better than I do, still for my part at least I would strongly encourage him to reach out into that field and do as much business there as possible. I think if he established three or more live trade agencies there, it would be money well spent. I think we could build up a very much larger business there than we now have. As a matter of fact, as far as I can see, the countries of South America and the Orient are about the two best directions which are now open to us in seeking new markets or extending the markets we now have.


Supply-Trade and Commerce


Richard Bedford Bennett: I would like to supplement, the observations of tihe hon. member for Red Deer. Looking over the world at large, if we are going to trade we must make up our minds that we can trade only in those countries where there is the opportunity of selling what we produce. That means that we must sell primarily to those countries that do not produce what we have to sell. That seems to be axiomatic. We start with that, and what are we doing? We start two new offices this year in the United States, one in Chicago and one in San Francisco, and the next thing we find is that the United States increases its tariff on many of the goods that we could sell to them. The3' are increasing their tariff on beef and other agricultural products, on milk, for instance, and cream. By the elastic provisions of their tariff they can raise their tariff without waiting for legislation. All this is going on. I submit to the minister that in South America there is a very great opportunity, and while we are sitting by, the Americans are invading and securing that market. I think it is not too much to say , that in a large way the South Americans would sooner trade with the Canadians than with almost any other people they know, or I will put it this way: Other things being equal, they would give us the preference. I think the minister will say that is so. The office at Panama is highly desirable, also at Buenos Aires, Valparaiso, Lima and up the west coast of South America. AH these are very desirable, but when we talk of opening offices in the United States I put this to the minister: He is a manufacturer and he heard the hon. member from Lincoln, who is also a manufacturer, give his experience, and while this is not an experience meeting, because the experiences cannot at all be equal owing to the various businesses and the various tariffs imposed against them, may I say that during the last five years we have every evidence that when Canadian manufactured goods have found a market in the United States that market has been closed to them by the United States tariff, either by changing the classification or by a presidential proclamation, under their elastic tariff provisions, that shut our goods out.


James Malcolm: That is true.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was the intention
of the tariff aot of the United States. It was put there for that purpose. Therefore let us dtevote our time and our energy and our money to promoting trade in those portions of the world where there is an opportunity fMr. Speakman.]
for Canadian products to find a ready market. May I suggest to the minister that if he just had the same desire to promote trade in Canada as he has outside of Canada-


James Malcolm: Yes, I have.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I would like to see the
evidence of it.


James Malcolm: That is not my job
with these estimates.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister says that is not his job. Others may think that it is his job. But at any rate I do put this to him: has the time not come when the Canadian government of the day should be considering something in regard to the home market? There is $800,000,000 worth of trade that many people in Canada could get by going after it. We import over $1,360,000,000. Last year alone we imported $420,000,000 of iron and steel products. Take electric goods; we send our copper blister to be refined in the United States, and because we have to pay a quarter of a cent a pound more than their own manufacturers pay for the same copper, we buy electric goods made in the United States. The same thing applies to nickel, to asbestos and to various other materials. The development of export trade is highly desirable; but remember this, in developing export trade we are subject to the caprice and the jealousy and the competition of the countries to which we ship our goods, as well as competition from every other country in the world. On the other hand-, we have a market at home which last year we threw away to the extent of $11300,000,000.


James Malcolm: Oh, no.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But that is what it gets down to. Do you realize that last year in duties alone on goods imported we collected $200,000,000. That was half of the entire revenue of the Dominion. If the minister will display the same interest in Canadian trade that he shows in his own business, and see that Canadian trade is protected by a tariff similar to that which he enjoys, then our manufacturers will have the business. I put that to him as a Canadian business man of whom we are proud, because he has succeeded in his business.


Ernest Lapointe: You are getting personal.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, we are proud of him.


Ernest Lapointe: So are we.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He has succeeded. Why? Because he has had an opportunity of fair competition with the whole world. How did he get it? He did not get it; his business got it. Sir Wilfrid Laurier gave it to his business-a protection of 30 per cent. The minister's steel, his iron, his logs, his raw material come in free.


James Malcolm: Oh, no.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not wholly, perhaps, but partly. The steel and iron from which you make your castors, the logs out of which you saw your ebony, your mahogany, your teak, your oak-these things come in free', and the reason that a profitable business has been built up in Kincardine, of which this country has some reason to be proud, is that the protection given to this Canadian industry has ensured that it will be maintained in this country against the mass production of the world.
Now, I want the minister to spend a little of his splendid talent and his energy and his vision in doing something for Canada; instead of trying to sell goods in the United States by trade commissioners in New York, in Chicago, and in San Francisco, and then when they get the business opened up, " bing," as the boy says, up goes the tariff, and that is the end of it. I know a case where a Canadian manufacturer established a market in Michigan. He said: "Here is my chance for my surplus product.'' He made his goods in Toronto, but before he could get his order actually delivered in Michigan the tariff classification became such that those goods could not be despatched. Right within five miles of where I now stand is a factory that tried to make aviation suits for sale in the United States, but the classification was so changed that they could not be shipped into that market. The people of the United States are not going to let Canada invade their market. To keep out our goods they change their classification overnight. I suggest to the minister that he devote some of his splendid talent to looking after our home market. He is a protectionist; the Minister of National Revenue is a protectionist; the Minister of Justice is a Genevaite-that is a little different: the Minister of Marine and Fisheries is a collector of curios-and he would certainly like to have a free trader as a curio; the Secretary of State is a protectionist-


Mr. McINTOSH:: Complete the picture.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Well the member for
North Battleford is neither.
Supply-Trade and Commerce


Mr. FANSHER (Lambton):: Mr. Chairman, I am in sympathy with the Minister of Trade and Commerce in opening up trade agencies in the United States. Contrary to what has been said by the front-benchers of the opposition, trade has been developed with the United States in spite of their high tariffs.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In what?


William Russell Fansher: In certain
agricultural products. The export of cream and milk from this country to the United States has increased in spite of the raising of the tariff ever since the defeat of the Wilson administration.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does the hon. gentleman know that on the 18th day of this month it will be increased by 50 per cent?


William Russell Fansher: Yes; but the records will show-my hon. friend can get them and they will prove my contention- that in spite of all the tariff increases on cream and milk there has been a steady increase in our export of these commodities to the United States. I cannot understand the logic of the front-benchers of the Conservative party when they claim to be a high tariff party, and yet say that the raising of the tariff in the United States shoots business all to pieces. It must be a poor rule that does not work both ways. They would raise our tariff to a high level, and then our international trade would be shot to pieces. Surely we realize that in this day and age no nation can live unto itself alone, that we have to be traders the world over.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does the hon. gentleman realize that we lost $100,000,000 worth of export business to the United States the first year the Fordney-McCumber tariff came into effect?


William Russell Fansher: I admit that it affects our trade for a certain time.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It will be four times that now.


Ernest Lapointe: But we are still very
much alive.


William Russell Fansher: Our exports
of certain farm products to the United States have increased steadily in spite of their raising the tariff at different times. I have observed that the leader of the opposition in asking the Minister of Trade and Commerce to apply to his department many of the principles he applies to his own business, said that a lot of

Supply-Trade and Commerce
his raw materials came in free. I believe one reason why the business of the minister has grown and prospered is that he has been able to assess the Canadian consumer to the extent of about 35 per cent on his output.


James Malcolm: I do not think my hon.
friend will mind being corrected. There never was a duty of 35 per cent on furniture. It is only 30 per cent. The British preferential tariff is 18 per cent. In a great many instances the Canadian furniture manufacturers take no notice whatever of the duty; they sell their goods on a cost-plus-profit basis, and you will find a great many articles of furniture sold at the same price in Canada as in the United States.


James Dew Chaplin: Then why do you need
the duty?


William Russell Fansher: In my speech on the budget I took our imports of furniture and the duty collected thereon-the average duty under all tariffs-and I know that the average duty was over 25 per cent.


James Malcolm: That may be.


William Russell Fansher: That was on actual transactions, not figuring out the percentages at all. If that is so, our furniture manufacturers are accorded that amount of protection.


James Malcolm: I hope my hon. friend
is not arguing that because there is a tariff of 25 per cent on a commodity, the Canadian manufacturer takes advantage of that tariff. He must not argue that way. Every automobile tire is about the same price in Canada and the United States, and that can be shown in regard to commodity after commodity. My hon. friend is not fair if he arrives at that conclusion.


William Russell Fansher: I might be
if I did not have specific instances to which I might refer. We know that in 1926 there was a slight reduction of about 10 per cent on automobiles and the price was immediately reduced. Had they not taken advantage of the tariff there would have been no price reduction. Whenever there is a reduction in the tariff there is a corresponding reduction in price. In this house only a short time ago, during this session, the classification of combines reduced the tariff from 10 per cent to 6 per cent. What happened in the west? Many combines had been sold, but the purchasers have received notice that the amount they will have to pay will be less by $60 to $100, although the contract of sale has already been made. This is due simply to the fact that the tariff was reduced from 10 to 6 per cent.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Where are they made?


William Russell Fansher: I can show
that on several occasions when the tariff has been reduced there has been a reduction in price, and that to me is proof positive that many of these duties are taken advantage of by the manufacturers. The hon. member for Leeds says that combines are not made here. They are made by the Massey-Harris Company.


James Dew Chaplin: Of the United States.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: The minister says that the function of his department is zo give assistance to exporters-all exporters. Does that apply to those who export Canadian whiskey?


James Malcolm: If we were asked to assist in the sale of Canadian whiskey in any foreign country the commissioners would be glad to give that assistance; that is their duty.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: There is something interesting about this trade and there are some phases of the question on which we should have some information. We export to the United States 1,126,000 gallons of Canadian whiskey valued by the department at $16 a gallon. Let us take now the island of Miquelon. There are 3,900 persons living on that island and they import 170,000 gallons of Canadian whiskey per annum. In other words, they import from Canada 51.51 gallons of whiskey for each inhabitant of the island who is not at school. There are 600 children at school in the island, and if they stayed at home and drank as much whiskey as all the adults of the island there would be consumed 42 gallons of whiskey for each man, woman and child in Miquelon-and this is exclusive of the amount of malt beer and whiskey imported from other countries. In Canada the per capita consumption is .31, or one-third of a gallon per head, as compared with 51.51 per head of the population of that little island. Now the curious fact is that the value of Canadian whiskey in Miquelon is only $5.50 a gallon, according to the reports of the department, compared with $16 in the United States. It seems to me that these trade commissioners must be very enthusiastic when they operate in small islands. For instance, in the West Indies, all the large islands consume only a limited quantity of Canadian whiskey, while the small islands consume about the same proportion as the island of Miquelon; and the price of whiskey in the West Indies is $5 a gallon. The fact is that the further away we get from Capada the lower the value of the whiskey becomes. When we get to South Africa we find that the value of Canadian whiskey there is given as $3 a gallon. That

Supply-Trade and Commerce
may account for some of the vast immigration to South Africa instead of to this part of the world. I am interested to know why the whiskey shipped from Canada should fall in value in these distant places. I do not know why the small islands should want to consume so much whiskey, and perhaps the minister can explain this point; but the fact is that the value of the whiskey gets lower and lower the further away from Canada we get. If a gallon of whiskey goes direct to the United States we get an excise duty of $9 per gallon on it; when it goes to these small islands the people there get it without paying this duty, there being no excise nor export duty in this case. In my opinion all whiskey exported from Canada should be on the same basis as the whiskey shipped to the United States, and if we were to get $9 a gallon, by way of export duty, on the liquor sent to these other countries we should very nearly obtain enough revenue from these two sources-the United States and the other countries purchasing our whiskey-to pay the interest on the national debt of Canada. There is something that should be looked into in this connection. Why should we get $9 a gallon on liquor going direct to the United States while liquor going to these other places does not pay any duty? That is one question. Another question - I should like to have answered is why these low values should be placed on Canadian whiskey going to every other country than the United States, until, as I have pointed out, the value drops to $3 in South Africa. May I have some explanation of this?


James Dew Chaplin: Will the minister answer
the question I asked with reference to the salmon that went to New York?


James Malcolm: Was it a sample shipment?


James Dew Chaplin: The minister told us that his officers were responsible for the sale of some $4,800,000 worth of canned salmon in New York, and I asked whether that salmon was for home consumption cr had been reexported.


James Malcolm: I regret having made a
mistake in that regard. This salmon was for domestic consumption in New York. The British Columbia salmon packers managed recently to get some New York houses to carry their product, and I read the item wrongly. I wish to correct it in Hansard. They received sample orders of $158,000 worth of biscuits and $4,800 worth of salmon-not millions.


James Dew Chaplin: The department publishes a journal known as Commercial Intelligence. Does not that paper continually carry certain inquiries froim outside countries asking for agents in Canada for the salt; of their goods?


James Malcolm: I do not know that it
does. If it carries import advertisements it is without my knowledge.


James Dew Chaplin: I did not say advertisements; I saiid, inquiries from houses in the old country asking for agents in Canada for the sale of different commodities. Does it not carry such inquiries?


James Malcolm: I am informed that no
agencies are asked for in the journal except agencies for the sale of Canadian goods.


James Dew Chaplin: What I want to know is
whether this paper carries notices from foreigners who want to sell goods in Canada, asking for importing agents in this country for the sale of those goods.


James Malcolm: I think not, and I am
informed by my deputy that it does not. I have never heard of it.


Mr. BOYS:: I should like to ask the minister one question. He made a statement a few moments ago which interested me very much in view of information I have myself and in view of some remarks that were made in the house last year with regard to automobile tires. The minister stated-and I should like to know whether his statement is correct-that all tires in Canada were sold at the same prices as those charged for similar tires in the United States. The information I placed on Hansard last year, which I am confident was correct at that time, was that there were two sizes of tires actually sold in Canada for less than similar tires of that weight and make in the United States. With the exception of two sizes there was a slight variation in price in favour of the American tires, but in no instance was there a difference of 10 per cent, notwithstanding the fact that we have a duty on tires of 35 per cent.


James Malcolm: Twenty-five per cent.


William Alves Boys: Certainly it was 35 per cent last year, if my memory serves me rightly.


James Malcolm: Speaking from memory I think it is 25 per cent.


William Alves Boys: I do not really care very much; the point is that they are sold in some cases for a little less and in other cases for a little more than the prices of *;milar tires in the


James Malcolm: No; my hon. friend is quite right in checking me up on the sizes. I believe I used the argument once before. The tire men observe the American schedule on practically all sizes; on some sizes I think their prices are 7 or 8 per cent over the Canadian list, and there are other sizes on which the American list is a little lower. I have not studied the list for some time, but the tire manufacturers claim that with their export business added to their domestic business they can meet American prices. In my opinion the rubber industry in Canada has treated the consumers of its products very fairly. It has reached a production of about $100,000,000 and is exporting about S30,000,000. I only made thq statement in reply to my hon. friend from East Lambton when he made the assertion that every industrialist takes full advantage of the tariff. Some may do so; others may not, but I do not think it is a fair statement to say either that no industrialist takes advantage of the tariff or that ill industrialists do. There are industries in Canada which have protection but are not trying to get every last cent out of it. Internal competition often controls the price to a very great extent.


William Alves Boys: I think the fact is that the market is preserved for the Canadian manufacturer, and if the demand is sufficient to keep him working to capacity he can manufacture his product as cheaply as it can be made in the United States. We contend, of course, that protection is not given for the purpose of enabling the manufacturer to make an increased profit; rather it is given to preserve the Canadian market for the Canadian manufacturer.
I should like the minister to say to what extent the tariff is taken advantage of say in the boot and shoe industry, the furniture industry, and the clothing industry. It would be most interesting if we could get some such information with regard to these important articles as we obtained in regard to rubber tires. I have taken the stand with regard to rubber which I took last year, because at that time I went into the matter quite thoroughly.
I have not had the opportunity of going into the question with regard to boots and shoes
rMr. Boys.[
and clothing, but these things are very important to the farming communities. I should be inclined to think that possibly the manufacturers of these articles are doing just as much for the people of Canada as the manufacturers of rubber, who certainly have a very wonderful record. If the minister could give us any information with regard to these products I am sure every member of the committee would be glad to get it.


James Malcolm: I am not in a position
to give my hon. friend the corresponding prices in many commodities, because it is a field of endless study. Rubber tires are on a given list, and it is very easy to make a comparison in that regard, but on the other hand there are many commodities in a different position. There is one particular commodity which was mentioned by my hon. friend from Sherbrooke; silk hosiery is sold at comparative prices in the United States and Canada.


William Alves Boys: When the minister says "comparative prices" does he mean similar prices?


James Malcolm: Yes. I do not know
the situation with regard to boots and shoes but I do know that not many shoes come from the United States; the greater number are imported now from Great Britain. I can tell the committee that in the manufacture of furniture there are some lines where the full 30 per cent is needed, and a couple of million dollars worth of furniture comes in in spite of the duty each year. However, that is a condition of competition which I doubt could be stopped by a duty of 40 per cent. It is worrisome to the factories in the northern United States; Michigan and New York factories cannot meet this competition. On the other hand, I think it is safe to say that in connection with the better lines, Canadian furniture is sold for less than the American price plus the full amount of the duty. I know many lines which do not take advantage of the tariff at all. It all depends upon the kind of furniture.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There are so many
varieties.


James Malcolm: Style is an important
factor. I do say, however, that it is very unfair to industry for any one to state that the tariff is always taken advantage of; that is not always the case.


Robert James Manion: Hundreds of items can be cited in the United States where the price was lowered by the imposition of a tariff.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


William Alves Boys: I like to get things straight
wherever possible, and the minister will remember that we had some slight difference of opinion in regard to the tariff on automobile tires. I have the tariff before me and I find that item 592 is as follows:
-tires of rubber for vehicles of all kinds- British preferential tariff 22i per cent; intermediate tariff 30 per cent; general tariff 35 peT cent.


James Malcolm: I stand corrected.


The CHAIRMAN:: I think the discussion
which has been going on for the last half hour is not at all relevant to the item under discussion. We are considering a vote for commercial intelligence, but we have been discussing the tariff.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I asked the minister a
question some time ago as to why Canadian whiskey is valued at different figures, $16 in the United States, $5 in other countries and only $3 in South Africa. What is the reason for this variation in value?


James Malcolm: I told my hon. friend
that I thought his question should be asked of the Minister of National Revenue when his estimates are up. That question does not come under this department.


John Evans: I was very glad to hear the
hon. member for Fort William say that we should treat others as they treat us. In that case I think we should treat Great Britain as Great Britain is treating us; we should sell where we buy and buy where we sell. I am trying to get at some of the incongruities of this tariff system, and I was rather amused to hear the minister say that the tariff was not used for fixing prices. The minister is establishing a trade agency in the city of Chicago this year, and I would like to ask him how Canada can ship goods into Chicago over the United States tariff wall and still make a profit? The fact then remains that the tariff in Canada is used in order that the consumer may be charged a price which will enable the manufacturer to compete in foreign countries, and that is what I object to. These trade agencies are established in countries which have a high tariff wall against us at the expense of the home consumer. I think this is money wasted and when the manufacturers themselves do not want these agencies established in the United States cities, why not cut out the item altogether?


James Dew Chaplin: Mr. Chairman, I was
glad to see the minister get up in defence of 78594-209
the tire industry. I rather expected that he would answer the hon. member for East Lamb-ton (Mr. Fansher) with regard to the automobile industry, but he did not. The member for East Lambton said that a few years ago the tariff on automobiles was reduced and the cost to the consumer was also reduced. The minister knows that that is not the fact, and I think the hon. member for East Lamb-ton knows it too. That statement is not correct and it cannot be proved, because the reduction in automobile prices did not amount to as much as the reduction in the sales tax and excise taxes, 1'et alone in the duty.


Richard Bedford Bennett: All you have to do is to study the figures.


James Dew Chaplin: Some time ago the member for Macleod (Mr. Coote) gave us figures which showed that a few days after the tariff had been taken off the consumer had not been benefited by a reduction in the price. The reduction which occurred in the price of automobiles was the amount which was lost to the treasury of Canada through taking off the sales tax and excise taxes.


Miss MACPHAIL:: They were that much cheaper.


James Dew Chaplin: But the treasury of Canada lost out.


William Russell Fansher: The hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Chaplin) cannot deny the fact that the price of cars dropped immediately. The consumer was able to purchase them at from $50 for the cheapest car to up in the hundreds less than he would have had to pay had. the tariff not been reduced. All the arguments of the hon. member for Lincoln or the whole front row of the Conservative opposition in the house, or of the high tariff men within the Liberal party, cannot convince the purchasers of automobiles that the reduction in the customs tariff did not reduce the price. I can give a personal experience of my own. I had just purchased a Delco lighting plant which bore a duty of 35 per cent. That duty was reduced in the 1926 budget, and the price of the same plant was reduced $90. Other lighting plants are made within Canada, but this particular make is not. The rank and file of the farmers throughout the country had an object lesson in the 1926 budget and one which they are not going to forget. A reduction in the customs tariff will bring about a reduction in the price of these things.



Supply-Trade and Commerce


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the hon. member can explain why there have been three reductions in the price of motor cars since that time without any change having been made in the tariff.


William Russell Fansher: I will make this observation-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Just deal with that one.


William Russell Fansher: If there is another 10 per cent reduction next year in the customs tariff, there will be a big reduction in the price of automobiles.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There have been three
reductions since without any change in the tariff.


William Russell Fansher: The manufacturers have been able to sell more cars and have been able to reduce the price.


William Alves Boys: Does the hon. member contest the statements which have been made regarding tires? Although there is a duty of 35 per cent, 9 per cent is the highest difference there is in the price of tires purchased in Canada and in the United States. In some cases the identical tire is sold in Canada for a little less. Does the hon. member challenge that statement?


William Russell Fansher: I have not
looked into that particular item, but I realize that under certain circumstances a particular industry might be overbuilt. The bonus, so to speak, entices capital into an industry, it becomes overbuilt, and in a short time the promoters of that industry have to put their heads together and take entire advantage of the tariff in order to live. A special committee investigated conditions in connection with the sugar industry a few years ago-I think it was the session of 1922 or 1923-and they found that condition existing in the sugar industry. The industry had been overbuilt, it could not run twelve months in the year, and they had to put their heads together and take advantage of the tariff.


Mr. McGIBBON:: How is it that the cost of agricultural implements has gone up since the tariff was reduced?


William Russell Fansher: The price of practically all commodities has been on the increase during the last few years.


William Alves Boys: Most of them are coming down. [Mr. B. W. Fansher.l


John Evans: As the minister is looking for trade in the United States, and has established agencies in American cities, does he expect to trade in those commodities on which there is a large American tariff against us?


James Malcolm: Naturally we expect to trade in the items we can trade in; we expect the United States to buy those items which they find it desirable to buy. In all the customs schedules of the world I do not think you will find a country with a longer list of free items than has the United States. They have plently of high items, but they have a very long free list. They do not put duties against the things they need.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Exactly.


Robert James Manion: Anything they cannot
produce themselves.


James Malcolm: I do not know about that. The list of products which we sell to the United States is quite a long one; it covers three or four pages.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There are five hundred items.


James Malcolm: There are a great many items. For instance, we sell the United States coal where it is advantageous for them to buy it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: On the Pacific coast.


James Malcolm: It is not a large item, but it runs to half a million dollars. We sell them acids.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Sulphuric acid goes in free.


James Malcolm: To the extent of $2,000,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It goes in free?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And they use it for
manufacturing and sell the goods to us.


James Malcolm: They may use it for their own consumption.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I looked into that matter myself.


James Malcolm: I contend that this discussion has gone very far afield. Because the United States has raised their tariff wall is no reason why we should stop giving assistance to Canadian business men who desire to sell their products in the United States, and I respectfully submit that this item should pass.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Henry Elvins Spencer: The minister said that very few manufacturers did not take the full advantage of the tariff, but that sometimes it was found necessary to do so. It seems to me that the only way in which a manufacturer would be able to take advantage of the tariff would be by charging less than the full amount. Just as soon as he charges to the limit of the tariff, there is no protection at all as foreign goods will come in over the tariff wall.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Electricity and gas inspection, including International Electro-technical Commission, $231,500.
Henry Elvins Spencer: What is the reason for
the increase?


James Malcolm: The slight increase in
this item is brought about by an increase in the staff, salary increases and the fact that certain new equipment has been required to carry on the work of the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The Precious Metals Marking Act, 1928, administration of, $6,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: I suppose this refers to
the administration of the act that came before the banking and commerce committee this year?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I understand the minister had an objection to that act. Is he quite satisfied with it as it has gone through?


James Malcolm: I am not quite satisfied
with the act, but I think it is nearer what it should be than it was before. It provides for the importer putting his name on the imported article.


George Reginald Geary: And the word "imported"?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Henry Elvins Spencer: In the administration of
this act, do we collect anything towards the expense of administering it?


James Malcolm: There is no source of
revenue from the enforcement of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National Research Council, $400,000.
Milton Neil Campbell: Has anything been done to increase the salaries of the men engaged in agricultural research? I understand that some recommendations were made to the min78594-2094
ister by the Canadian Co-operative Wheat Producers, Limited. Has anything been done or is anything proposed to be done in that
regard?


James Malcolm: I am glad to be able to tell my hon. friend that the salaries that were recommended to the minister by the president of the National Research Council for his technical staff were submitted to the commission which is studying the question of civil service salaries, which I believe it is meeting this week. We shall have a report on the matter shortly.


Milton Neil Campbell: If the recommendation is favourable to an increase, will something be done during this session?


George Reginald Geary: I presume what the hon.
member would like to know is whether there is any possibility of a report from the commission during the session.


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
realizes it is not a subject that can be decided in a few days. We shall have to give the commission reasonable time.	[DOT]
Mr. MoGIBBON: What progress has been made by the research council?


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
is quite right in asking for a statement of what work has been done. I am afraid I shall have to allow this item to stand until after recess so that I may get a further statement which I thought was in the file. The National Research Council are now established in temporary quarters in one of the buildings in the old Edwards mill, and they are now in a position to function. New quarters are being provided by the Department of Public Works, and construction is expected to start almost immediately on these new buildings. The sum of $300,000 was voted for the work of the research council during the fiscal year 1928-29. They request a further $100,000 for the coming year. This is required for further carrying on the work which they have in the course of preparation.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How much will be for
administration and salaries, how much for researches and how much for buildings, if any?


James Malcolm: I thought I could get some papers I left on my desk in my office. The grants in aid of research amount to $160,000. Those are the grants to the universities for special work. Scholarships for post-graduate training and research amount to $65,000. The laboratory requires $40,000. An item of $20,000 is set aside for travelling expenses of the

Supply-Trade and Commerce
council, staff and also of - committees. There is $8,000 for administration and $7,000 for library and publications. Salaries, including all the staff of the National Research Council, are estimated at $100,000.


Mr. IRVINE:: I should like to know
whether the National Research Council has the expenditure of this $400,000 entirely within its own hands?


James Malcolm: It is spent on the recommendation of the president of the council, but it must always be, like any of the other departmental expenditures, approved by the department.


William Irvine: The reason I ask that is
that I know the publication known as the Canadian Field Naturalist has been endeavouring to get a very small grant from the council to assist in giving greater publicity to new species. The council, for some reason or another, has not granted the request and I was wondering whether it would be within the power of the council to grant such a request-


James Malcolm: Yes.


William Irvine: -or whether we shall have to take some other means of getting assistance for the Field Naturalist.


James Malcolm: I think the council get
requests beyond the amount of money they have to distribute. If my hon. friend has . a request for a small or reasonable grant that he thinks is worthy of consideration, and will bring it to me, I shall be pleased to submit it to the council.


William Irvine: The grant this institution
requires is only $200. It is very modest and I think the council should meet the request because it is doing excellent work in the field of research.


Peter McGibbon: It seems to me that as regards work of this kind, where an endowment fund amounting to $4,000,000 is being raised in Ontario and the amount at present under consideration is being provided by the Dominion-I am not complaining about the amount, because one cannot have too much money for research-there might be overlapping and lack of coordination which might not be beneficial to the country. Has there been any correspondence between the department and the Ontario government with a view to preventing any overlapping? I commend the minister in regard to this work, as I have commended the government many times in the past for like action. An institution of this kind is the very life-blood of the country, but to get the best out of it we should have coordination and no overlapping.


James Malcolm: I am glad my hon.
friend has brought up that point of endeavouring in every way to avoid duplication of effort, because it is a subject that is worthy of the greatest consideration. I am pleased to be able to say that Premier Ferguson and Sir Joseph Flavelle, rvho is at the head of the Ontario Research Foundation, have expressed themselves on many occasions as being only too anxious to carry on the work so that overlapping shall not occur. Doctor Tory has had several conferences with Sir Joseph Flavelle and they have discussed the question of preventing overlapping.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: How are the subjects of research allotted? Does the student select his own subject or is it selected for him?


James Malcolm: I am sorry I cannot give my hon. friend the exact information that he wants.


Arthur Edward Ross: There are students in the different universities following up different subjects of research. I brought to the attention of the minister two or three years ago, in connection with the report of the research council, the fact that a subject of research taken up one year would perhaps be dropped for two or three years, and resumed later. The report did not indicate that there was any finality in the action taken on the subjects of investigation and research, and it looked to me. from the outside, as if there were an indefinite system in the selection of the subjects of research and their continuance to a finality. Are the subjects allotted to the students, or do they select them for themselves?


James Malcolm: Each person holding a
scholarship selects his own subject in consultation with the professor supervising the work. So far as publicity is concerned, if my hon. friend will peruse the new research journal which is coming out he will find that there is now a continuity of publicity on the problems which axe being undertaken. The council has been very thoroughly reorganized during the last year and is following a definite plan, working in conjunction with the provinces. I would commend to my hon. friend the last issue of the research journal, which will give him much more information than I could do.


Arthur Edward Ross: I looked over the
last journal and the subjects seem to be very academic. I wonder if the minister can tell us what application they would have to industry in the Dominion

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Peter McGibbon: Suppose a problem is
brought to the research institute by some industry and a solution is arrived at; whose property does that solution become? Is it the property of the government, or can anyone get the benefit of it?


James Malcolm: Anyone having a research problem to solve could take it to the research council, and could retain the ownership, just as is done in connection with the Mellon institute in the United States and the bureau of standards. On the other hand, if the problem is studied on behalf of the government, the patent or the right to the solution is acquired by the state. The Dominion government would then own it.
I believe something comparable with the Mellon institute is contemplated whereby any industry will be able to submit a research problem to the council for solution, and will retain the rights thereto.


Peter McGibbon: The industry, I presume, would pay a reasonable amount for that service.


James Malcolm: Yes, they would pay for the service.


Arthur Edward Ross: What has been
accomplished along the line of engineering standards during the past year?


James Malcolm: I have no information
on that, but I shall be glad to get it for my hon. friend.


Arthur Edward Ross: I should like to
have it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International customs tariffs bureau, $666.
Agnes Campbell Macphail: Would the minister
give some information on this?


James Malcolm: This is a contribution
which Canada makes to the international bureau for receiving information with respect to tariffs in all countries of the world. The amount paid last year was S588, and this year we are asking for $666.


William Russell Fansher: Who is the
head of this bureau, and where is it located?


James Malcolm: The International Bureau for the publication of customs tariffs was established at Brussels, Belgium, in 1891, as the result of a convention signed by 39 countries. This convention or union provided the means for admitting all nations into membership, and at present the International Customs Tariff Union comprises nearly 200 states or colonies, that is to say, almost every separate customs area in the world. The original
agreement among the nations was to continue in force for seven years; then if not denounced, a further seven years, and so on from one seven-year period to another. In this manner, the International Customs Tariffs Union has been continued from its inception down to the present time. Canada has been a member from the beginning.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Is the information that is gathered available to the members of the house?


James Malcolm: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Richard Bedford Bennett: I understand that item
No. 326 for $75,000 for the motion picture bureau has been carried. I wished to speak on that.


James Malcolm: We can go back to it.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Printing of parliamentary and departmental publications, including the "Canada Year Book", $130,000.


Mr. LUCAS:: What is the reason for the
increase in this vote?


James Malcolm: There is an increase of
$12,000 over the vote of last year, and it is mainly due to the fact that the estimates were reduced last year from $128,000 to $118,000. Provision is also 'being made for the enlargement of the Commercial Intelligence Journal, and for two additions to the list of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics publications-the Calendar Year Trade Report, inaugurated last January, and a proposed bimonthly bilingual precis of exports and imports.


William Thomas Lucas: How many copies of the Canada Year Book are printed annually?


James Malcolm: We print 7,200 in English and 2,400 in French.


William Thomas Lucas: Is there any revenue derived from this publication?


James Malcolm: The Canada Year Book is distributed without charge.


Mr. FRASER:: To whom; to members of parliament?


James Malcolm: Yes.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


John Anderson Fraser: I want to register an objection and point out to the minister that this year I did not get a copy of last year's issue.


Peter McGibbon: The rest of us are in
the same box.


James Malcolm: Last year's issue is not
out yet.	-


John Anderson Fraser: When does it come out?
Is it always a year behind?


James Malcolm: It takes some little time after the close of the fiscal year to get these statistics together.


John Anderson Fraser: Will the issue that we have not yet received contain the statistics of the last fiscal year up to March 31, 1929?


James Malcolm: Yes.


William Thomas Lucas: I understood the minister to say that something like 7,000 copies of the Canada Year Book were printed and distributed to members of parliament. Who else are entitled to free copies?


James Malcolm: They are distributed to the universities, schools and public libraries. Any institution can get a copy on application.


John Anderson Fraser: What schools receive copies?


James Malcolm: Any schools that wish
a copy for their libraries are put on the mailing list.


John Anderson Fraser: Public schools?


James Malcolm: Yes, public schools, high schools, colleges.


Hugh Guthrie: To anyone who cares to
ask for a copy.


James Malcolm: Y'es.


Thomas Cantley: I understood the minister to say that the statistics are for the fiscal year ending March 31. Now, it would be much more useful and much more convenient to everybody if calendar year statistics were prepared. We have in the empire more than half a dozen different dates for the close of the fiscal year; we have March 31, we have May, we have June, we have September, and we have December. The difficulty is that anybody who wants to compare statistics over a certain period cannot do so. The most useful ones are those that are oompiled for the calendar year. I would strongly impress upon the minister the necessity and the advisability of compiling his statistics to cover the calendar year ending December 31.


James Malcolm: I will note my hon.
friend's observation. I may tell him that we have a calendar year trade report published now', from w'hich he can get trade figures.


Thomas Cantley: I am referring to the
trade publication discussed here during the last few minutes.


James Malcolm: My hon. friend is referring to the year book. It is rather difficult not to have the year book correspond with the fiscal year returns given by the finance department. I will bring the matter to the attention of the head of the Bureau of Statistics; but I w'ould point out to my hon. friend that as the government accounts are all closed on March 31, it does seem advisable to have the statistics for the same period right through the Canada Year Book. For the benefit of the trade papers we have published calendar year figures for some time.


Thomas Cantley: In what publication?


James Malcolm: They are available in
the statements which are circulated every month.


Hugh Guthrie: Is there any good reason why the fiscal year should not be made to correspond with the calendar year? When I came here originally the fiscal year ended on June 30; then for some reason ft was changed to March 31. I cannot see any advantage in the latter over the former. Why not make it the calendar year?


James Malcolm: I know of no reason.
It would be a matter of policy which the Minister of Finance would have to consider. I do not know how many years we have been following the present system.


Hugh Guthrie: We started it about 1909. I had a discussion with the Minister of Railways (|M.r. Dunning) on the same subject, and h6 strongly advocates that the fiscal year and the calendar year synchronize. Unless there is a good reason for the difference I do not see why it should continue.


Thomas Cantley: So far as this matter
is concerned there is chaos in the Dominion. In Nova Scotia in the last ten years the fiscal year has been changed three times. The year now ends in September. Go over this Dominion from one coast to the other and I venture to say that in no two provinces will you find their dates corresponding, so that it is practically impossible for any man who wishes to compare statistics in the various provinces to get a resume of the trade of the

Supply-Trade and Commerce
country during any twelve months. I see no reason why the fiscal year of the Dominion and of every province should not end on December 31; it would simplify matters greatly from many points of view


James Malcolm: There is a good deal of merit in what the hon. member (Mr. Cantley) and my hon. friend from South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) have stated. No doubt it leads to a great deal of confusion having a different fiscal year in each province and in the Dominion, and it would make for a clearer understanding of the figures if there were uniformity in' the matter. I am afraid however that my hon. friend's problem would not be made any easier of solution unless the provinces agreed to compile their statistics as from the same date as the Dominion.
I thoroughly agree with the suggestion and I think it might be made a matter for provincial and federal consideration; it would make for facility in the comparison of statistics. I shall be glad to submit the matter to council.


James Dew Chaplin: If the minister would
start with the Dominion of Canada before waiting for the provinces to take the initiative, and if he would see that our fiscal year ended December 31, it would be of great advantage to us and others would see the wisdom of it. It must be apparent to the minister, and no doubt fit 'is, that if the fiscal! year ended with the calendar year your balance sheet will toe out and all your records will be in hand so that we may start business with a clean sheet. As it is now no one knows what will happen at the end of the year. The Minister of Finance does not make a budget any more in this country; he does not know what the previous year has done for him, and he does not make a budget at all for the next year. He does not even make a guess at it. We have stopped budgeting so far as this parliament is concerned.


Thomas Cantley: I wish to thank the
minister for the very sympathetic view he takes of the matter. No doubt he will recall that at an annual meeting of the manufacturers' association six or eight years ago this matter was discussed very fully and a strong memorandum was directed to the various governments. If the minister would take such action as he suggests, and call the attention of the various provincial governments to the desirability of a uniform system in this regard, the reform could be affected within a reasonable time, to the great advantage of trade and to the satisfaction of all who are in any way interested in statistics affecting the commerce of the country.


James Malcolm: So far as trade figures
are concerned, there is a publication which has been issued for a good many years now giving the figures annually.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The real truth is, as the hon. member for Pictou has pointed out, that people abroad find it difficult to follow our statistics. Our railway accounts end with the calendar year, and our public accounts with March 31. The result is that the House of Commons will not be in a position for another year to discuss the expenditure made by this government for the year ended March 31, 1929. That is the real difficulty. The minister will recall that we changed it once from October, and then to June and back to March. Certainly in the provinces the same difficulty has been experienced-and it relates to the calling of parliament or the legislature. The real reason behind the present system is that the Auditor General's report may be available in order that the accounts may be as fresh as possible. The fact of the matter is that we have not had a budget speech since Mr. Fielding made his last. Mr. Fielding of course always made a budget speech; he budgetted for the year ending March 31 of the next year. The present Minister of Finance will not take a chance and estimate what his revenue and expenditure will be; he votes his money, but he has never made an.estimate of the revenue since Mr. Fielding's budget of 1923. In British Columbia they estimate their revenue by departments, and they deal in the same way with their expenditure. They make a complete budget statement showing the expected revenue from each department of the public service, together with a statement of contemplated expenditures of each department, and their public accounts are prepared accordingly. In recent years the Dominion government has not been doing this and the situation is getting worse, with the result that people outside the country find it difficult to follow our accounts. The League of Nations has been endeavouring to secure uniformity in this matter. The Minister of Labour, through the representation which Canada will have, should be able to secure a system of uniform accounts, particularly with the aid of the Minister of Justice. But this has not been done. All we have been able to do is to get a uniform policy with respect to free trade, which some hon. gentlemen say it is desirable to follow but which the Minister of Finance says is no good. Cannot the Minister of Labour do something for us?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Henry Elvins Spencer: I suggest to the leader of the opposition that we need not go to British Columbia to find an up to date system; we have one in Alberta along the lines he has pointed out.


Mr. CAYLEY:: To w'hom are copies of the year book issued? I have not received one.


James Malcolm: My hon. friend was not in the house when a similar question was asked and answered. These publications are distributed to members of parliament. The particular book to -which he refers is not yet ready. All the publications are distributed to schools, colleges, libraries and any other institution which is on the mailing list.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
The weights and measures inspection service, including the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, $345,000.
William Thomas Lucas: Is there a revenue from this department?


James Malcolm: The expenditure for the past year was $326,773 and the receipts were $399,308, leaving a surplus of $72,535.


William Thomas Lucas: There is an increase in the vote this year; what is the reason?


James Malcolm: It is due to increased business-increased fees collected.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Motion picture bureau, $75,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Will the minister make a statement on this item?


James Malcolm: This increase of $25,000 over the amount voted last year is necessary to meet the requirements of the bureau due to the expansion of its activities. The director ot the motion picture bureau has estimated that an _ increase of $25,000 is necessary to provide for the following:
Growth of bureau, expansion of activities and increased volume of produc-
To defray travelling and other expenses ' incurred in the performance of work for other departments and not refundable to the bureau under present
[DOT]regulations	 3 000
To provide for the seasonal appointment ' of temporary employees whose salaries are paid from contingencies.. ..	1,000
To defray customs duties, et cetera, '
heretofore not provided for	 3,000
To purchase additional equipment to meet increased needs of bureau.. ..	3,000
To provide for the production and distribution of 16 mm. films	 10,000


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many people are employed (in that bureau ; how are the pictures distributed and how are the subjects selected?


James Malcolm: The Canadian government motion picture bureau was organized in 1917 and operates as a branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce. Its functions are: To produce and circulate throughout the world motion pictures and iphatographic material designed to disseminate information about Canada, its resources, opportunities, scenic beauties, attractions, basic industries and so on, and through this means encourage development, trade, settlement and tourist travel; as a central organization for the production of technical, instructional, advertising and other such types of films and pictorial material for all federal government departments; to cooperate with the provincial governments, the national railways and steamship lines and other organizations in the production of all types of pictorial matter used for the general development of the Dominion's interests, welfare and progress; to cooperate with the motion picture industry in matters pertaining to the general development, welfare and (progress of the Dominion.
Since its organization in 1917 the bureau each year has shown steady and substantial development, both in the scope and extent of its activities and the volume of pictorial matter produced and distributed. During the present fiscal year the bureau has shown the greatest growth in every branch of its work of any year in its history. The total volume of motion pictures prepared and processed will, if is estimated, exceed the previous year's total by approximately 20 per cent, and the total amount of other photographic material produced and distributed will exceed the previous year's total by approximately 25 per cent. The total number of films in circulation throughout the world on January 31 of this year is approximately 80 per cent greater than at the same date a year previous. The extent and coverage of territory, while not definitely estimable, is vastly greater than for any other year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister need not trouble himself further in that connection, but I should like to know how the subjects are selected and how the films are distributed, because I have seen some of these films which I thought were taken for the purpose of illustrating-because there is no other way by which they could be known-the performances of the Liberal party.
fMr. Bennett.]

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Malcolm: My deputy points out tliat the subjects are really selected by the provinces who ask us to film them and we look after the distribution of the films.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is that so in every case?


James Malcolm: I do not think it is true in every case but I believe it is the general practice that we do this work for the provincial governments. We do agricultural pictures and studies of industrial and mining developments, and we also do work for all the departments in Ottawa.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The last part of the
answer covers everything, I think.


James Malcolm: Some of the work performed for the departments in Ottawa is as follows:
Department of Agriculture, $3,183.05.
Department of the Interior, $4,754.96.
Department of Marine and Fisheries, $7.15.
Department of Labour, $24.95.
Department of National Defence, $851.13.
Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment, $7.92.
Department of National Revenue, $10.80.
Department of Insurance, $17.90.
Department of Immigration, $306.30.
Department of Mines, $762.48.
Post Office Department, $687.20.
Canadian Forestry Association. $145.95.
Canadian National Railways, $597.10.
Canadian Exhibition Commission, $1,650.
Additional revenue was received from other sources. From First National Pictures of Australia, Limited, we received $2,451.41 for films leased; from the Canadian Universal Film Company, Toronto, we received $1,224.14; from the Film Exchange, New York, we received $341.20; from a firm in Paris we received $117.08, and there were other small amounts received from various sources. The total revenue amounted to $14,583.48.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was just for work done?


James Malcolm: Yes, work done for the departments. The total revenue, including rental of films leased, amounted in the last year to about $18,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Under what principle are they distributed? Supposing someone in Calgary wanted to obtain one of these films; how would that be done?


James Malcolm: My deputy has just
pointed out that these films are highly inflammable, and of course they cannot be shown except under the proper auspices, in a place which complies with the provincial regulations.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am asking these questions because I was requested to do so and I should like to get it on Hansard. Supposing a theatre in Calgary desired to show one of these films; how would they go about it?


James Malcolm: If any theatre wants to show these films we make no charge; they have to pay just the carrying charges. We are very glad to have these films shown in any good theatres desiring to use them.


Richard Bedford Bennett: They just pay the express and freight?


James Malcolm: Yes, that is all. I think the same rule applies in the Ontario motion picture bureau, which spends much more money than we do.


Henry Elvins Spencer: This item calls for an increased expenditure of $50,000. I heard the minister's explanation for part of that increase, but I should like to hear an explanation as to the other $25,000. Then I would point out that this vote calls for publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad, other than countries of Europe. Is there another vote to cover European countries?


James Malcolm: My hon. friend is on the wrong item; we referred back to item 236.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John Frederick Johnston: We are properly at vote 330 now.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Was vote 329 called?


John Frederick Johnston: Yes, and declared carried.


James Malcolm: No, 329 was not called; 32S was passed and we reverted back to 326.


James Dew Chaplin: I am quite sure vote 329 was not called, because I intended to ask the minister the reason for the increase.
Publicity and advertising in Canada and abroad, other than countries of Europe, $100,000.


James Malcolm: I shall be very glad to give my hon. friend the reason for the increase, but. he will really see the reason in the wording of the vote. Last year the vote was for publicity in Canada, but we have had a great many applications for publicity in South America. It has been held that we can spend money very advantageously in the Latin-Ameriean countries, perhaps by supplementing the work of the motion picture bureau in advertising Canadian products there and so on, so this vote now includes advertising and

Su-p-ply-Trade and Commerce
publicity in countries other than European countries. This will permit us to spend any portion of the $50,000 for publicity in these countries to which I have referred.


James Dew Chaplin: I should like to ask if any
portion of this vote is allocated to publicity in the United States?


James Malcolm: Not a dollar of it.


James Dew Chaplin: I am very glad to hear that because I agree with some of the members who expressed the view this afternoon thatr there is a reasonable chance of doing business in South America. Those who are in business in that country and know something about it can tell the minister that. As I said this afternoon, there is very little chance of our doing business in the United States; we might as well save the advertising.


James Malcolm: I can assure my hon.
friend that the countries to which I referred are those in which our publicity department would like to spend some money.


John Evans: This vote for advertising
has been increased 8425,000 this year. Last year votes 319, 329, 330, 331 and 332 totalled $950,000, while this year the total is $1,375,000, an increase of $425,000. I think the committee should have some explanation for this large increase, as these votes are all part of what may be taken as advertising for Canada.


James Malcolm: If the hon. member desires to consider the items together I shall be very glad to answer his question. The increase in the vote which we have been discussing is explained by my previous remarks. Publicity and advertising in the British Empire is increased by $50,000 because we feel that the work we have done in promoting publicity in regard to Canadian products has been very beneficial and we thought that the work should be continued and increased. I think the hon. member will realize that in a business amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars, which we are doing with Great Britain, the money spent for publicity is a relatively small amount. If we can acquaint the people of the British Isles with the products which we have to offer them and which they need, I do not think that money could be spent in any better way. A comparison with the expenditures made by other countries, such as Australia, will show that our expenditure is indeed rather modest.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Chairman, I have one criticism to make which applies not only to this department, but to others, and I think it is one to which the minister will listen with rMr. Malcolm.]
sympathy. It is very advisable that our advertising should preserve a continuity regardless of administration; whether a Liberal government be in power, or a Conservative or Labour government be in power, is not a matter of importance. The Empire Marketing Board has been doing some very wonderful advertising in connection with Canada through the medium of hampers which are packed with Canadian goods and which can be purchased at the corner grocery. In each basket or hamper there is a statement as to how much Great Britain purchased from Canada, and how much Canada purchased from them; the number of men who went to the war from Canada, and other interesting information. While in England I took the trouble to go into this matter very carefully and I was struck with the character of the advertising and the appeal it must make to the people interested. Certain departments have been issuing advertising with the name of the minister or the deputy minister attached, and I suggest to the minister, in the best spirit in the world, that these advertisements which are issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce of Canada should be issued by the department and should not contain any person's name. In England they have found that the preservation of the continuity of the advertising is the one thing to be observed and when, in a very short time, the people have an opportunity to place another government in power these advertisements will be issued by the Department of Trade and Commerce of the Dominion of Canada. These advertisements are really to advertise the products and not the individuals. This matter has been brought to my attention on more than one occasion and it has been said that the Department of the Interior, the Department of Trade and Commerce, and one or two other departments have issued advertisements of that character. At times the Post Office Department has done so, but it is advertising of another character.
I trust the minister will see my point and that he will endeavour to eliminate the individual from these advertisements and speak only of the country or the department charged with the responsibility.


James Malcolm: I am very glad to have
my hon. friend make that suggestion, because in making it he has found only one very small matter to criticize. I do not mind my name being on the advertising because I was rather proud of one thing in connection with it, namely that it has never been political advertising. I should like to remind the com-

Supply-Trade and Commerce
mittee that in the distribution of our advertisements we have gotten away, I hope for all time from partisanship with regard to the
press.


Richard Bedford Bennett: You are bound to.


James Malcolm: Our advertising appears
in the Canadian press from the Atlantic to the Pacific; in the daily press twice a year and in the weekly press twice a year, without regard to the political leanings or the political viewpoint of the papers. I appreciate what the hon. leader of the opposition has said with regard to the continuity of the advertising. If the insertion of the name is the only part of our advertising which is worrying my hon. friend, and he can assure me that when that wonderful day comes of which he speaks, his minister's name will be left off-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Absolutely.


James Malcolm: -I shall be very glad to consider his suggestion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Publicity and advertising in the British Isles, $150,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Is the increase in this
vote due to the activities of the Empire Marketing Board?


James Malcolm: It is due to a closer
cooperation with the activities of the Empire Marketing Board. That board is doing what might be termed sentimental or general ad-[DOT] * vertising, trying to create in the minds of the British people the idea that they can procure within the empire the major portion of the goods they need. The board finds it rather difficult to refer to specific items with reference to one particular country; because they may be competitive with another part of the empire and we endeavour to supplement the work of the board by specific advertising. For instance, last fall we tried out an advertising campaign in the Midlands. This campaign was recommended by Mr. Forsythe Smith and Mr. Gerahty, and it proved very successful as it increased the sale of Canadian apples to an enormous extent. The publicity department proposes extending the scheme to various other districts in England, and it is the extension of general schemes to supplement the work of the Empire Marketing Board which necessitates the extra expenditure.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: Is the Dominion represented on that Empire Marketing Board?


James Malcolm: Yes, Mr. Wilson of the
Department of Agriculture is a member of
the board; Mr. H. Watson, our senior trade commissioner in London is a member; and Mr. Gerahty, the director of publicity in London, is a member also.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: Do we make any contribution to the upkeep of that board?


James Malcolm: No.


Harry Bernard Short: As very good results were
obtained from the advertising of apples in England last year, I would suggest to the minister that he use part of this increased amount in continuing that advertising this year. There is an abundance of blossoms this year and if Providence gives us the right kind of weather we will have a very good crop. If good results have been obtained from the advertising of Canadian apples last year in the old country, does the minister not think it would be a good idea to extend that advertising and to increase the sales as much as possible ?


James Malcolm: What my hon. friend is asking for is just what I have explained, namely, that where we have found the scheme profitable we want to enlarge it. With regard to apple advertising, we are not paying all the money. We are offering any group of Canadian producers assistance in their publicity if they will contribute. We spent in the apple campaign in the Midlands, $30,000, of which $15,000 is to be paid by the producers' association, so that the scheme is doubly beneficial. The producers do not feel that as good results can be had from the amounts which they are willing to vote as can be obtained when the campaign is handled properly by a publicity department in London, and much of this increase will go to an extension of the apple selling campaign.


Mr. ARTHURS:: Votes Nos. 329, 330 and 332 appear to be votes which should be chargeable, to a great extent at least, to the Department of Immigration. It seems that the Department of Immigration is disguising a good deal of its expenditure under other departments and, particularly, under this department.


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend is hardly fair in that. This money which is spent in publicity through the Department of Trade and Commerce is entirely for publicity in connection with marketing. None of this money has been spent in immigration offices at all.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Arthurs: Am I not right in connection with vote No. 332, which reads:
Exhibitions and state fairs in Great Britain and the United States, amount required for the Department of Immigration and Colonization.


James Malcolm: The moneys have all
been spent on state fairs at which we exhibit Canadian products. We have now a very fine collection of Canadian products being exhibited.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Exhibitions-exclusive of the requirements of the Department of Immigration and Colonization, $265,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the minister will give us an explanation of this item; it looks very strange.


James Malcolm: The exhibition branch, as my hon. friend recalls, was under the Department of Immigration and Colonization.


Richard Bedford Bennett: At one time under the Department of Agriculture.


James Malcolm: It has now been taken over by the Department of Trade and Commerce and is being looked after by Mr. Tur-cotte, whose department has been transferred from here to London.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Vote No. 332 refers to exhibitions and state fairs in Great Britain and in the United States. Vote No. 331, which refers to exhibitions exclusive of the requirements of the Department of Immigration and Colonization, is the one about which I am trying to get information at the moment.


James Malcolm: Those are for our state fairs in Great Britain and the United States.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Vote No. 332 refers to exhibitions and state fairs in Great Britain and the United States. Vote No. 331 refers to exhibitions exclusive of the requirements of the Department of Immigration and Colonization. That is why I am asking about it. I he amount is more than a quarter of a million dollars.


James Malcolm: There is an increase of SOS,000 in this item. This amount is required for shows and window displays when space has to be purchased in the British Empire; for the purchase of goods in Canada for exhibition purposes; for the purchase of materials used in exhibition displays, including lumber, paint, oil, and so forth; for the removal of goods from Canada to London; for the salaries and travelling expenses of the

staff; the rental of the site fcr the exhibition warehouse and cold storage plant. The details are as follows:
Permanent salaries, $43,020.
Purchase of goods in Canada, $15,000.
St. Catharines warehouse-
Which is for the collection of fruits. -$9,000.
Ottawa office, $4,000.
This office is being run on a very small scale now.
London exhibitions, British Industrial fairs,

Ideal homes, $15,000.
Cookery and food, $3,000.
Birmingham British Industrial fairs, $4,000.
Portsmouth British Industrial Fair, $1,500.
Aberdeen British Industrial Fair, $2,000.
Cardiff British Industrial Fair, $2,000.
Aldershot British Industrial Fair, $1,500.
Manchester British Industrial Fair, $1,000.
Liverpool British Industrial Fair, $1,000.
Belfast British Industrial Fair, $1,000.
Edinburgh British Industrial Fair, $1,500.
Bristol British Industrial Fair, $1,500.
Dublin British Industrial Fair. $1,000.
Smaller exhibitions in the British Isles, jointly, $5,000.
Continental fairs, $25,000.
Window displays, $6,000.
Imperial Institute, $25,000.
General expenses, including wages of temporary staff in London, $87,680.
Rental of site for warehouse, $1,300.
Expenditure to January 31, 1929, Advances. $85,562.02.


Richard Bedford Bennett: From April 1, 1928.


James Malcolm: Yes, until January 31.
1929.
Printing and stationery, $678.67.
Rents paid, $9,490.29.
That will be to some extent eliminated when we have our new warehouse.
Salaries, $20,962.32.
Special assistance, $9,361.64.
Travel, $5,874.70.
Sundries, $45,873.81.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister will admit
that we are spending $87,000 in salaries and wages.


James Malcolm: No, that is general
expenses. The permanent salaries amount to $53,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But the minister has an
item of $87,000.


James Malcolm: I can give my hon.
friend the salary list.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I do not want to trouble the minister in regard to that, but it seems questionable whether he is getting adequate returns in view of the expenditure. It looks like spending $100,000 for the sake of getting $165,000.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Malcolm: My hon. friend realizes
that it is essential to maintain the nucleus of an organization. We are not spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps a million dollars, as we did when a large fair like the one at Wem'blev or some other world fair happened to be taking place. But as long as we keep the organization together, we are always in a position, should it be advisable to go, for instance, to Antwerp to the fair which they propose holding. If we could have exhibitions commensurate with the staff, we would 'be voting more money than we are. The staff is la*-ge but, as I say, it is essential to maintain the organization. It is not so large as my hon. friend might think. Mr. Turcotte, the director, gets $4,125; Mr. Buckle, the departmental accountant, $3,180: Mr. Dalglish, chief of mineral exhibit division, $3,380. We have vacant the positions of chief of designing and decorating; chief of agricultural and commercial exhibit division; assistant to the chief designer. These positions have been vacant for some little time. Then we have two men at St. Catharines and five at Winnipeg preparing the grain and fruits exhibits, so that it is really just a nucleus of an organization that we have. I can tell my hon. friend that it would be very hard to do without it, even if it does cost us $87,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Exhibitions and state fairs in Great Britain and the United States, amount required for the Department of Immigration and Colonization, $110,000.
James Malcolm: In respect to this item
the hon. member for Parry Sound is correct.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is there not a duplication of our activities with respect to items 331 and 332? HeTe is the Department of Immigration and Colonization doing certain work in displaying our products, and my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce is doing the same thing, exclusive of the Department of Immigration, in items 331 and 332. He is going into state fairs, and the Department of Immigration is doing the same thing. This is a joint exhibit apparently.


James Malcolm: It is not in reality, but the Department of Immigration had been handling the whole exhibition branch and we felt that the Department of Trade and Commerce should not be loaded with the whole of the charge. In this item there is $50,000 for the collection of exhibits, $54,000 for state fairs and $6,000 for general exhibits. The state fairs cost last year $40,000, and the Winnipeg collection of exhibits, $38,000.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Where were these state fairs held?


James Malcolm: I am very sorry I have not the list here, but I am prepared to let the item stand and give my hon. friend the list.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Are the appointments to these various positions, one or two of which still strangely seem to be vacant, made by the Civil Service Commission.


James Malcolm: In every instance.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
International customs tariffs bureau-further amount required, $659.
Mr. RYCKMAN:: I was one of those who chorused "carried" when we passed a small item of $666 for this same purpose about an hour ago. What is the explanation for this further vote?


James Malcolm: A letter was recently received from the Consul General of Belgium advising that the extension of the Dominion's external trade would justify its inclusion in the first class group of states that are parties to the customs tariffs union, and that the contribution from the 1st of April would be increased by the amount we are here asking for. It is rather difficult for Canada to refuse to pay her proportionate share while securing all the benefits. It is only a small amount in any event. I do not think it is held by anyone that we should not pay $1,200 or $1,300.


Arthur Edward Ross: Although it does not come under this item, I would ask if the minister has considered the question of the violations of our coasting law, and whether the same conditions will be allowed to prevail this fall to the disadvantage of our boats.


James Malcolm: I shall be glad to discuss that matter when the steamship subvention items are up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions

Atlantic ocean, Pacific ocean, and local services, $1,070,050.
Richard Bedford Bennett: To shorten the discussion of this item, will the minister say whether there are any new subventions over last year, and give the reason for the decrease?


James Malcolm: On the Atlantic there are no changes. The three services are the same as last year, and the vote is the same. On the Pacific we are asking for a grant for a new service between British Columbia ports
330S

Supply-Trade and Commerce
and the antipodes, largely for the assistance of the lumber trade. That item is in the supplementaries. There is no change in the main estimates so far as the Pacific service is concerned. On the local services there is an increase on the Halifax and Bay St. Lawrence service of $1,200; on the Mulgrave and Canso service a reduction of $725; on the Murray Bay and north shore service a reduction of $7,100. I think that covers the changes.


Harry Bernard Short: I desire to draw the min-
.ster's attention to the freight rates on apples charged by the Atlantic steamship federation. I spoke about the matter when I made a few remarks on the budget. The minister was not then in his seat. The rate on apples from Nova Scotia to European ports is 90 cents per barrel, provided the shippers sign a contract with the federation that they will use no outside steamers. If they do not sign thait contract, the federation insists on a rate of SI.10 per barrel-a discrimination of 20 cents per barrel. The Nova Scotia shippers resent this discrimination very much indeed, and if the Minister of Trade and Commerce can remove this injustice his action will be very much appreciated by those shippers.


James Dew Chaplin: Does the hon. member
say that that steamship federation is getting a subvention from the Dominion government?


Harry Bernard Short: I presume that some of the lines in the federation are subsidized.


James Malcolm: These are not subsidized lines. I assume my hon. friend is referring to the North Atlantic conference rates. I should like very much to be able to assure him that I could dictate to the conference, but I do not know any minister of trade and commerce in the past who has tried to do it and not come to grief.


Henry Herbert Stevens: You tried it a couple of
years ago.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: I would point out to the minister that in 1925 his right hon. leader in his celebrated declaration from Richmond Hill told the country that there would be no monopoly on land or sea, that the north Atlantic conference would be brought to account at once, and that there were to be fair rates accorded' to everyone on land and sea. Since then I understand the Canadian government merchant marine has twice increased its rates, cooperating with the conference. Now we have my friend from Digby (Mr. Short) complaining of a situation which the government, I am confident, is powerful enough to counteract, and if it will address itself to that purpose I am satisfied good results will follow.
J


Richard Bedford Bennett: Before the minister answers, I would suggest that there is no good reason why he should fear the fate that overtook his predecessor in office in an endeavour to deal with this problem. His desire for office is not so great, I am sure, as to discourage him from venturing upon the field where a certain distinguished gentleman met his Waterloo. But may I observe that the way the situation was dealt with, on the great lakes as well as on the Atlantic ocean, reminds one of Mrs. Partington; and the result was about the same. The minister should deal with the point brought up by the hon. member for Digby. That is, if apples are shipped on a through bill of lading the rate charged is fixed by the north Atlantic conference, and if the shipper does not avail himself of a vessel within that ring, he has to pay two rates instead of the through rate. The other day I was talking to one of the leading citizens of Nova Scotia who had resisted this discrimination. Surely the minister is powerful enough to deal with that situation. Knowing his ability to secure appropriations for North Bruce to provide steamship connections from the most remote ports in that peninsula with the outside world, surely he is not going to neglect the apple shippers of Nova Scotia for the sake of the local traffic of North Bruce. If he displays the same energy in dealing with that situation as he has in securing rebates on coal used in the salt works in his constituency, and in securing appropriations for public works in the most remote part of the North Bruce peninsula, I am sure he will be able to secure substantial results for the Nova Sootia apple shippers.


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
the leader of the opposition must realize the situation relative to the north Atlantic conference rates as well as any hon. member of this house. It has often been held that we would be much better off if the Canadian government merchant marine did not observe the conference rates, but I am not of the view that that is necessarily the best course to pursue. The shippers of apples from Nova Scotia enjoy the same rates under the north Atlantic conference as the shippers of apples from the United States to Great Britain. When we consider that we are put on an even footing with the Shippers of American apples, I think we ought to be reasonably satisfied. The Nova Scotia apple shippers can always charter a ship if they so choose.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But they have to have
refrigerator space.


James Malcolm: Probably so; but I
firmly believe that if we get into a rate war

Supply-Trade and Commerce
we would not fare as well as we are faring at the moment. The country to the south of us is willing to spend money to subsidize steamship services for low rates, and I rather fear that if we took action we would put our shippers at a disadvantage.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But there was to be no
monopoly on sea or land.


James Malcolm: There has been no
monopoly; the north Atlantic conference rates have been reasonably low. In conjunction with those rates shippers have the advantage of warehouses and docks for handling their freight.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And through bills of
lading.


James Malcolm: Which are a distinct
advantage. The north Atlantic conference lines are endeavouring to secure trade, and therefore it is reasonable to assume that they are not going to quote rates which will not develop traffic. The minute their rates become too high, chartering will immediately take place. I am not inclined to think that my hon. friend from Digby is working in the best interests of the apple growers of Nova Scotia in making his request.


Harry Bernard Short: The apple growers of Nova
Scotia think so, because they have passed a resolution condemning that discrimination.


James Malcolm: Yes, I know a lot of
people who theoretically condemn the conference rates. But I have very grave doubts whether their position in relation to the United States shippers would be improved if such action were taken.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But the major part of
the United States traffic out of New York is carried in British bottoms.


James Malcolm: Yes.


Harry Bernard Short: They do not object to the
rate of 90 cents per barrel, but they do object to being penalized if they do not use the federation steamers exclusively. For instance, if a shipper wants to ship his apples this week by the federation boat, and next week desires to ship by another line, he is charged $1.10 per barrel instead of 90 cents unless he gives them the entire shipment. That is what they complain of. They are not complaining of the rate of 90 cents, which is a fair rate and is the rate paid by the United States shippers. But they do object most strenuously to having to sign an agreement to give their entire shipment to the. federation steamers.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: If the statement made
by the hon. member is correct there is an instrument ready to hand for the minister to wield. He might consult the Department of Justice and find out whether action can be taken under section 498 of the criminal code which has recently received a reinforcement from the Supreme Court of Canada in a case laid before it. I submit that the situation indicated by the hon. member is intolerable. One resents an injustice. If A is charged half what B is compelled to pay then B has a right to insist upon fair treatment; and the government is there to see that fair treatment is meted out. The matter now is with the minister. This is a matter of transportation, a matter of trade and commerce, and it is within his jurisdiction.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister has a
remedy in his own hands in connection with the use of the facilities in the harbours of Halifax and St. John and other ports. The case referred to by the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis (Mr. Short) is one in which the apple grower in Nova Scotia would not sign an agreement "all or none". That is the whole story-all or none. Can a free Canadian citizen be compelled to accept this situation. If I do not ship all my apples one way I am to be penalized by paying twenty cents a barrel more in order to get them to the other side? We have wharves and railways, and we should teach these people that, while we will utilize their facilities for the purpose of shipping apples, when it suits us, if someone else comes forward who will take our apples at the same rate, we will use the facilities they afford, and no one shall put a pistol to our heads and say, "All or none."


James Malcolm: My hon. friend has put
the case clearly. The north Atlantic conference give the conference rate to a whole shipment. They say, "If you cannot give us all your business we cannot give you the conference rate." Whether or not the parliament of Canada can say to a British shipping company that they must not discriminate between the shipper who gives them half his cargo and one who gives them his entire shipment, I am not prepared to say. I appreciate the remarks of my hon. friend (Mr. Ryckman), and the matter is one that has been given consideration. But I am just cautious enough to be unwilling to promise my hon. friend that anything can be done.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: The minister will promise further consideration?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Malcolm: I shall certainly be glad
to go into the matter, but I will not promise that something will be done because the north Atlantic conference is not very easily dealt with.


Harry Bernard Short: Do I understand that the
minister promises that the department will look into the matter?


Mr. MacDONALD (Cape Breton Soutih):: If tihe minister will look at item 150 he will see a vote of $3,600 providing for a service between Halifax and Bay St. Lawrence, while there is another vote of $18,000 for n steamship service between Sydney and Bay St. Lawrence. There seems to be a duplication here; that vote of $3,600 should be eliminated, should it not?


James Malcolm: There is an increase this year of $1,200 to make up the $3,600 subsidy which we have agreed to pay for the service, and there is a supplemental item to meet last year's deficit.


Finlay MacDonald: But is not that $3,600 unnecessary?


Mr. QUINN:: We have heard of the freight rate on apples from Nova Scotia to England. Can the minister give us an idea of the freight rate on apples from New Zealand to Canada?


James Malcolm: I am sorry I have no
freight rate schedules with me.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I have just received information that a cargo of apples-twelve thousand boxes, an hon. member informs me-is about to arrive at Halifax for distribution in the eastern provinces. There would seem to be some advantage to the New Zealand shipper when he can ship apples half way round the world to eastern Canada at this time of year. To me it looks very much like carrying coals to Newcastle to ship apples to Nova Scotia. What is the advantage to the New Zealand shipper?


James Malcolm: My hon. friend has mentioned something of which I had not previously known. He realizes of course, as we all do, that this time of year is fall in New Zealand. Their apples are ripening and going on the market, and I presume they have chartered a steamer to take an entire shipment, with no doubt a very favourable rate.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The rates are so low that on a through bill of lading from New Zealand to Calgary butter comes in at only a few cents per hundred pounds more than the rate from Vancouver to Calgary.


Harry Bernard Short: The express rate on apple3 from Windsor, Ontario, to St. John and Halifax is $1.20 per hundred pounds, while the express rate on apples from the Annapolis valley to Windsor, Ontario is $2.50 per hundred pounds. While Ontario is an apple-growing province, there are grown in Nova Scotia varieties or apples which are very much in demand in the cities of the upper provinces. Now with a discrimination against our maritime, or Nova Scotia, apples of $1.30 per hundred pounds we cannot expect to build up a trade in Nova Scotia fruit. Is there anything that the minister can do in the way of having these rates regulated? It surely does not cost any more for the express companies to carry apples from Nova Scotia to points in Quebec and Ontario than it does for them to bring apples from those same points to Nova Scotia. Why there should be this discrimination against our Nova Scotia apples I cannot understand, and I should be glad to have the minister look into the matter.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister promised a few minutes ago to explain a matter I brought to his attention.


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend is referring to the waiving of the coastal regulations in the fall to permit the storage of grain in boats over the winter. All I can say to the house is that every fall there has been a pressure brought by those moving grain to take advantage of all the available space that can be found. That pressure undoubtedly comes from the shippers who wish to allow American boats to load grain and hold it in storage at the bay ports for unloading during the winter or spring. The coastal regulations call for the unloading of the boat during the season of navigation; to allow the boat to remain with a cargo is a violation of the coastal regulations and requires the passing of an order in council. These orders in council have been passed for the last several years on the recommendations of the Board of Grain Commissioners, in an endeavour to provide additional space, and the Lake Carriers' Association, which I believe has made complaints to the hon. member for Kingston, naturally objects to this practice.
So far as my department is concerned, and so far as I personally am concerned, I do not see that any great harm has been done to the Canadian shippers; as a matter of fact I think some good has been done the handlers of grain by allowing them to take advantage of this extra space. It is quite possible that it is a mistake to let so much grain come down; it is quite possible that the opinion held by some that there is altogether too much grain in our

Supply-Steamship Subventions
show window and not enough back in the warehouse, to use the vernacular, is well taken. Perhaps it might be very much better if we had more grain in the country and less at the front, but I can only tell my hon. friend that we will have to look at it from year to year and consider the circumstances that exist at the time. If there is a tremendously heavy pressure for storage space and the shippers of grain want this privilege, we might be inclined to grant their request, but unless there is a heavy movement and a great need for storage space I would not be inclined to permit this to be done. I wish my hon. friend would not ask me to make a promise with regard to the matter until such time as the request is made, but since he always has taken such an interest in the matter I would say that before we grant the request another year I shall be glad to discuss the matter with him in order that he may defend himself with those who press him on behalf of the lake shippers.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister does not appreciate the objection I raised. The shippers make no objection to the violation of the coastal laws with regard to the retention of grain in vessels; their objection is that after that privilege has been granted these vessels have returned to the head of the lakes for another cargo. There is no objection at all from the transportation people in regard to the storage of grain in vessels; that is quite reasonable and helps everyone, but the objection is that after they receive that privilege they violate the provisions of the order in council by returning to the head of the lakes for further cargoes.


James Malcolm: I had forgotten about those two or three cases to which my hon. friend refers, but I can assure him that they will not be repeated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail Subsidies and Steamship Subventions
British Columbia and Australia, service between, $80,000.
Eastern Canada and Brazil, Uruguay and the Argentine, steam service between - further amount required, $20,000.
Halifax and Bay St. Lawrence, service between-further amount required, $1,200.
Mulgrave, Ariohat and Petit de G-rat, steam service between - further amount required, $2,000.
Rimouski and Pointe aux Outardes. service between-further amount required, $2,500.
Victoria, Vancouver, way ports and Skagw'ay -steam service betw'een - further amount required, $892.-Total, $106,592.86.
Henry Herbert Stevens: I have just one very brief observation to make in reference to this item. I am very glad to note the subsidy which is to provide for service between British Columbia 7KM4-210
and Australia and to assist in meeting the unfair competition we are up against with the subsidized service from Washington, Oregon, to Australia. I have just one point to draw to the attention of the minister, a point which I mentioned to Sir Henry Thornton in the railway committee when we were discussing the estimates of the merchant marine.
The government merchant marine gave a very excellent service on the Atlantic; that service was quite satisfactory and I believe it stimulated business, but it did not pay. I suggested that it might be possible to use those ships on the Pacific, if we had close collaboration between the Department of Trade and Commerce and the Canadian National Railways. If this subsidy were paid to the merchant marine it would be so much money saved, in a sense, so I would suggest to the minister that when this matter is being considered the government merchant marine should have the advantage, if there is any, and if it is found impossible to use those ships in this service the subsidy should be given a Canadian company rather than an American company if an American company should tender for the service, having in mind the danger of subsidizing a service which might be prejudiced through its very close association with the United States service from the Pacific coast to Australia.


James Malcolm: I did discuss with Sir Henry Thornton and the officers of the Canadian National Steamships whether or not they would be in a position to tender for this service. I am afraid they will not be able to do so. Hon. gentlemen will notice that the next item in the supplementaries shows an increase of $100,000 for our river Plate service to South America from the Atlantic coast, due to the fact that the traffic has increased and it is necessary to use more ships. I do not think it will be possible to make very much use of the older vessels of the Canadian government merchant marine. Tremendous changes have come about in shipping during the past decade, as my hon. friend well knows; the 9 and 10 knot boat built some years ago is not profitable at present and it is not satisfactory to shippers. The cost of operation of old boats is so excessive that the newer types of ships with Diesel power plants are driving them off the high seas. The Canadian government merchant marine, if parliament felt that we should increase our expenditure on ships and go into the business with new and up-to-date boats, of course could carry out this service as my hon. friend suggests. It might be good business, but unless the DepartttSVISED EDITION

Supply-Steamship Subventions
meat of Railways and the Canadian National Steamships decide on a program calling for the yearly construction of three or four modern freighters with modern power plants, they will not be able to compete with the newer boats which we can secure under subsidy. The best of the government ships are now on the Atlantic; some of the unprofitable ships are being taken off and sold, and I think that is a wise move. The United States Shipping Board has disposed of all its unprofitable boats, some of them at very low prices.
I can assure my hon. friend that this service, for which we are asking $80,000 for the remainder of this year and for which we may require $100,000 next year, will do what the old merchant marine service did in connection with the transportation of lumber. The lumbermen on the coast are all behind this service; perhaps we have taken longer to consider it than we should have taken, but I wanted to be sure that we would not do an injustice to the existing service. However, I am quite convinced that the existing service cannot do for British Columbia lumber shipments what can be done by this new service, and I can assure my hon. friend that of course British shipping will receive the preference when tenders are considered. Last year we were offered a very good service for the river Plate ports by some motorships, but they were of foreign registry and we felt that if we were subsidizing at all we would prefer to subsidize ships under British registry. We felt that the merchant marine had two or three boats which would be suitable for that service, and therefore they received the subsidy. I am glad to say that these boats have left the Atlantic seaboard loaded on every occasion, and I believe the proposed service will also prove profitable.


Mr. LADNER:: What services are now in
operation which would be capable of rendering the service which is being provided for in this item?


James Malcolm: If the hon. member will look at item 150 in the main estimates he will see an item, "Canada and New Zealand, on the Pacific, service between." That service has been in existence for some time and is operated by the Union Steamship Company.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is a mail and
passenger service.


James Malcolm: It is really a mail and passenger service, and, as I remarked a moment ago to the hon. member for Vancouver
FMr. Malcolm.]
Centre, I am quite satisfied that the shippers are right when they say that this service cannot transport the lumber as well as give a proper freight service.


Leon Johnson Ladner: It really means the establishment of a new freight service in order to assist the lumber trade?


James Malcolm: Yes, the lumber trade will receive the greater benefit from it.


James Dew Chaplin: How did we come to get into a local service in Argentine with this river Plate service?


James Malcolm: That is a through service from Canada.


James Dew Chaplin: Why do you call it the
river Plate service?


James Malcolm: Calls are made at river Plate ports.


James Dew Chaplin: Do I understand that the service starts at Buenos Aires and continues up the river?


James Malcolm: The service is from Canada to Brazil, Uruguay and the Argentine Republic.


James Dew Chaplin: The reason you refer to
the river Plate is because that is the end of the route?


James Malcolm: Yes.


James Dew Chaplin: You are not interested in giving a service up the river at all?


James Malcolm: Oh, no.


Finlay MacDonald: I notice an addition of $1,200 is being asked for the Halifax and Bay St. Lawrence service, which in my opinion is absolutely unnecessary.


James Malcolm: Under vote No. 167 for 1928-29 the sum of $2,400 was voted to provide a subsidy for a motorship service between Halifax and Bay St. Lawrence, ' and other ports in northern Victoria county, Nova Scotia. A contract was entered into with the Nova Scotia Shipping Company, Limited, Halifax, covering three trips in the spring and three trips in the fall of 1928, at a subsidy of $400 per trip. The report of the royal commission investigating the fisheries of the maritime provinces and the Magdalen islands, 1928, recommended that this service be assisted by a subsidy to such an extent as would ensure its operation at regular periods during the whole season of open navigation; that is to say, throughout the summer months, as well as during the spring and fall. The con-

Supply-Trade and Commerce
tinuation of the service during the summer months was strongly supported by the Department of Marine and Fisheries and by petition from the fishermen of Neil's Harbour, South Ingonish and other points in northern Victoria county; and the fish dealers of Halifax, and the Halifax board of trade. An agreement was arrived at by correspondence with the Nova Scotia Shipping Company, Limited, who undertook to make one trip each month during the summer, or three trips in all, at the rate of $400 per trip. This additional service is being provided, on the recommendation of the fishermen and the boards of trade, for an added period of three months.


Finlay MacDonald: The next item provides for 152,000.


James Malcolm: The hon. member probably knows the boat which was on that service, the Prince Albert, which was sunk by ice. We made an agreement with the contractors to build a new boat and put it on the service. The new steamer will cost from $-10,000 to $45,000 to build and the contractors, therefore, ask for a slight increase in their subsidy, amounting to $2,000. Previous to 1927 the provincial government contributed a subsidy of $3,000 to this service, but this was discontinued in 1927 and the contractors are entirely dependent upon the Dominion subsidy to make the operation of this service passible. It is, therefore, proposed to increase the Dominion subsidy to $15,000. and in view of the construction of an entirely new boat to grant a ten-year contract for this service to the Albert Steamship company.


Finlay MacDonald: Who comprise that company?


James Malcolm: I am sorry I cannot tell the hon. member anything about the personnel of the company.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Trade and Commerce-salaries, $572,625; contingencies, $40,000.
Leon Johnson Ladner: 
James Malcolm: I am sorry I cannot
give my hon. friend any information as to the representations made by my colleagues on behalf of their staffs. I was of the opinion that my deputy minister was entitled to a slight increase in his remuneration, and when the request went to the treasury board I was very glad to know that they had acceded to my recommendations. Whether or not tlie other ministers asked for the same increase for their deputies, I am not prepared to say. I think perhaps the right hon. the Prime Minister would be able to answer that question.


Leon Johnson Ladner: One will observe that
these increases are uniform, and to that extent there must have been some effort made to apply a principle. If we accept the minister's word that there was no principle at all, then it must have been just a guess. I think my question is a fair one; I do not ask it with respect to any particular deputy as I do not recall who did not receive increases, but probably it is unfair that any discrimination should be made in this regard. I think the committee is entitled to know if there was some basis which governed the increases. If the uniformity of $2,000 in the increases has any significance then the minister would have the information.


James Malcolm: Not -being a member of
tihe treasury board I do not know what arguments were used with regard to the deputy ministers in the various departments. If the hon. member desires to know to what extent the treasury board considered length of service, and what other matters were considered, I think he would be well advised to direct his question to the chairman of that board, because I am not in a position to give that information.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Was the minister's request for an increase of $2,000?


James Malcolm: I may say frankly that when I was consulted with regard to the matter, I said that I thought my deputy was worth $10,000.	'


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
3314	COMMONS
Supply-Trade and Commerce
James Malcolm: If my hon. friends are agreeable, I should like to take up the item dealing with the Canada Grain Act.
The Canada Grain Act, including management, operation, maintenance, and equipment of elevators, administration of, $2,618,570.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Does the revenue derived from the charges made equal the expenditure in this case?


James Malcolm: The revenue this year has exceeded the expenditure. I can give my hon. friend the latest figures:
Receipts
Grain inspection, weighing, etc	$2,179,435 23
Management, operation and maintenance of
elevators	 807,435 27
Expenditure $1,856,202 06
430,384 38
Equipment of elevators
16,056 35
Totals
$2,986,870 50	$2,302,642 79
Surplus $323,233 17
377,050 89 (deficit of) 16,056 35

The apparent surplus is $684,227.71.


Mr. COOTE:: Was sufficient money voted last year to carry out the administration of the act?


James Malcolm: Yes, we had sufficient voted last year for that purpose.


George Gibson Coote: I should like to bring to the minister's attention the accommodation provided for the grain inspector at Calgary. I mentioned it before. I think better accommodation should be provided for the grain inspector at that point. The premises he has at the present time are too small to enable the staff to work satisfactorily. They have not enough window space. It will be realized that grain inspectors always want a north light.


James Malcolm: My hon. friend brought this matter to my attention and the accommodation which he wanted is being provided at the present time.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Ocean and river service-maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and icebreakers, $1,650,000.
Peter McGibbon: I have been taking up with the minister a number of times a matter in connection with the tax on canoes, rowboats and motorboats in Muskoka. If the minister will be good enough to tell me that he will repeal the order in council in question, I shall have nothing more to say.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Unfortunately I am
not in a position to be as generous as that in regard to my hon. friend's request. I should like to hear his reasons.


Peter McGibbon: I am sorry the minister cannot give me that assurance. I will ask

him another question, because I do not want to say anything that is unnecessary with regard to this matter. Has the government determined to leave that order in council in force?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That is practically what has been decided. There may be a discussion and a reduction of the rates, but I am afraid we shall have to stand by the order in council.


Peter McGibbon: Then I shall have to
enter a protest against the discrimination that is being exercised in connection with the riding which I have the honour to represent. I do not know why my riding should be singled out from all the ridings of the Dominion of Canada and an order in council passed imposing a tax of from $1 to $8 on all canoes, rowboats and motor boats. I know what the minister will say, namely, that this has been asked for by a tourist association some of whom, I am free to admit, are Conservatives, but I humbly submit to the minister that it would be better to take advice, if he is going for advice to Conservatives at all, from those who represent the people rather than from those who do not represent anybody. I submit that this tax is unfair and discriminatory, because in the whole Dominion of Canada it is only my riding that has been singled out. Moreover, this is a tax which it is impossible to enforce. Let me read for the minister's information his own order in council, so that I shall have a basis for the remarks I intend to make:
His Excellency the governor general in counoil, on the recommendation of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and under the provisions of the Government Harbours and Piers Act, chapter 89 of the revised statutes of Canada, 1927, is pleased to order and it is hereby ordered that the regulations made and established by order in council, P.C. 1170 dated 12th July, 1928, be applied to the following waters to be known as the harbour of Muskoka lakes-

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
To be defined as follows:
All the waters of lakes Muslcoka, Rousseau and Joseph, including their connecting and tributary waters.
I wonder if the minister has ever considered what that means. We have three lakes there with a coastline of possibly 200 miles that he is going to make into a harbour. More than that he is taking in all the tributary rivers and the connecting waters-for example, the south branch of the Muskoka river, which runs away back into the district of Haliburton, and the north branch, which runs away up into the district of Parry Sound. The other outlet from the lake runs into Georgian bay. Taking it all in all, I think his order in council is making a harbour that will have from 1,000 to 1,500 miles of coastline. If that is not a ridiculous thing to do, I do not know what would be. Moreover, it is an infliction that is going to penalize not only the ordinary residents of Muskoka but tourists as well. The tourist trade is bringing a large amount of money into this country every year; in a former debate it was estimated at $275,000,000 a year. If these regulations are going to be enforced, every tourist who comes to this country will have to hunt up some person, take an affidavit, go and get a license, put number plates on his boats or canoes, and equip them with lights. That will be a real annoyance to the many tourists who come into our country, many of them bringing a canoe on the side of their car. It will be a real annoyance also to the farmers and other residents of Muskoka living near the Muskoka lakes.
If the minister will read the regulations he will find that they require a light to be carried in the stern of a boat or canoe that will be visible from all sides. If the minister has ever been in a row boat or a canoe, he must know that that is impossible. No man could fix a light in the stern of a boat so that it would be visible from all sides on a dark night. These regulations are going to be a worse nuisance than the luxury taxes which the Conservatives put on years ago, and they are bound to cause an immense amount of trouble. Only one man is appointed to issue the licenses; he lives in Toronto nine months out of twelve, and during the other three months he is located in the little village of Port Carling. People will have to go miles and miles to get their number plates and licenses. It will mean that some people will have to go from fifty to sixty or seventy miles.
The minister has been very generous in saying that he will reconsider this matter.
I am going to be frank with him: he could not put in my hands a better instrument to get votes than these regulations if they are to be enforced. But I am not looking at it from that point of view; I am looking at it from the point of view of the good of the country. The tourist trade is rapidly growing, and petty annoyances of this sort will disgust those who come to visit this country. The tax, it is true, runs only from $1 to $8, but it is heavy. The government does not get a cent out of it, because all the money is turned over to a man who is appointed as harbour commissioner, a man who is an outsider and the people up there are estimating that he will draw from $6,000 to $10,000 a year.
The regulations are going to be a real nuisance, and will not react to the credit of this government. Many of my people, farmers scattered along the shore line of the lakes, miles and miles away from a village, have two or three canoes or rowboats, and they have to go to all this trouble simply to appease Sir Thomas W hite and othei people like him who were instrumental in persuading the government that this was the right thing to do, when it is really the wrong thing to do. I am not blaming the government for it, but they should not have listened to this advice. The object of making these boats carry lights is, of course, the protection of life, but I submit that under the law as it stands everything can be obtained that the minister is seeking to obtain here, and with a great deal less trouble. I am going to ask the minister and the government to repeal these regulations.
Reducing the cost of the license will help some, but that is not all the trouble. When you look at the penalties that are attached, you will see that a man may be imprisoned for not carrying a license number on his boat or canoe or motor boat. When a man brings his canoe or rowboat in to the shore at night he invariably turns it upside down to let the water out. If there are electric batteries in the boat they are likely to tumble out and get wet unless they are permanently fastened. As I said a few minutes ago, if I were seeking my own. political advantage I would say nothing and let the government proceed to enforce these regulations, and the more strictly they were enforced the better it would be for me politically. But I say I am looking at it from the point of view of the good of the country, especially a country so closely tied up with the tourist traffic as Muskoka is. I hesitate very much to accept even in a

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modified form anything that is going to be such an irritation. I ask the minister and the government, who have been very kind and considerate with regard to all my requests, to see if they cannot cancel this order.


Richard Bedford Bennett: May ,1 direct the minister's attention to what I conceive to be the legal position in connection with this matter? The order in council purports to 'be made under the provisions of chapter 89 of the revised statutes of Canada. The title of that chapter is " An Act respecting the government harbours, piers and breakwaters," and the act may be cited as " the Government Harbours and Piers Act." In this act, "minister" means the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. Section 3 reads:
Nothing in this act shall apply to the harbour of Toronto, Quebec, Montreal, Halifax, Pictou, or St. John, New Brunswick, or any harbour under the management of commissioners appointed under any act of the parliament of Canada.
That in itself indicates the meaning that is to be attached to the word "harbour" generally. Then section 4 says, with respect to works under the control of the minister:
Excepting such wharfs, piers and breakwaters as are on or connected with oanals, the use, maintenance and ordinary repairs of all harbours, wharfs, piers and breakwaters constructed or completed at the expense of Canada, or in any way the property of Canada, and the making and enforcing of regulations concerning such use, maintenance and ordinary re,pairs, and the collection of tolls and dues for such use, shall be under the control and management of the minister.
The powers of the governor in council are set out in section 6:
The governor in council may appoint or direct such officers or persons as he thinks proper, who shall have, under the direction of the minister, the charge of the works by this act placed under the management and control of the minister, and who shall collect the tolls and dues to be paid in respect thereof.
That refers to tolls and dues in connection with harbour works. Subsection 2 of section 6 reads:
The governor in council may determine the remuneration to be allowed them respectively for such services, and such remuneration shall J>e retained from the tolls and dues collected.
Then section 7 provides that 'the governor in council may make regulations. Section 8 deals with the publication of the regulations, section 9 with the collection of tolls, and how enforced, and section 10 provides that no clearance shall be granted to vessels unless the tolls are paid. I think the Minister of Justice, who is beside the minister, will agree that unless there is a grant of power by parliament upon the minister and or the governor in
fMr. McGibbon.]
council to make regulations no regulations may validly be made. That is clear. There must be a grant of power to permit the regulations to be legally made.
Under the order in council the minister purports to convert one thousand miles of lake and river front into a harbour. These words occur in paragraph (1) of the order in council:
That the regulations made and established by order in council P.C. 1170 dated 12tli July, 1928, be applied to the following waters to be known as the harbour of Muskoka lakes:
Imagine, Mr. Minister of Justice, an order in council purporting to convert a river and lake shore front extending over one thousand miles into a harbour to be called the harbour of Muskoka lakes, the description being as follows:
All the waters of lakes Muskoka, Rousseau and Joseph, including their connecting and tributary waters.
That becomes the harbour. The whole basis of this new regulation is that a harbour lias been established with respect to which these tolls may be applied. Certainly there is no grant of power by this parliament to the governor in council to make that regulation. There is nothing within the four corners of this statute that confers upon the governor in council power to make a harbour, and much less would council have power to make a harbour of the Muskoka lakes. The word "harbour" must have the ordinary designation attaching to it, as is shown in the use of the expression "harbour of Montreal, harbour of Quebec," and so on. Now the government is going to make three lakes and the connecting rivers into a harbour called "Muskoka harbour." The Minister of Marine and Fisheries is a professional man, and he has beside him the departmental adviser. I think he will agree that the leading cases in the privy council 'hold that parliamentary authorization is necessary to the validity of an order in council.


Ernest Lapointe: There is no doubt as to that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Of course not. Then I just make this request of the minister, and he and I will have no further argument about it: show me within the four corners of the statute the power to make this order in council.


James Arthurs: Before this discussion
closes, I should point out that there are a number of people interested besides the member for Muskoka-Ontario (Mr. McGibbon). The minister attempts to call the Muskoka lakes and. their tributary waters a harbour. Well, a part of those waters extend up into Algonquin park and into my riding. Mani-

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
festly it would be unfair that a man travelling along the highway beyond, say, Parry Sound, carrying a canoe on his car, should be compelled to have attached to that canoe one of the lights suggested by the minister and to buy a license for his craft if he wants to use it on any little stream tributary to the Muskoka lakes. If the minister wanted to do it piecemeal he could have secured orders in council dealing with the Trent river, the Muskoka river and the French river systems. Therefrom he would derive an unwarranted revenue for the government. It is absolutely right that regulations should be made to provide that motor and other boats carry lights at night when they are running through crowded or dangerous waters; there is no objection to that at all. But if a farmer in that country has some ten, fifteen or twenty canoes that he hires out during the tourist season, and perhaps a few motor boats, he is taxed between $20 and $150 under this order in council as now proposed by the minister. The whole proposal is absolutely unfair, it is class legislation, and there is no justification for it. I agree with the leader of the opposition that no such proceeding is authorized by statute.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is not a new question. For over ten years representations have been made to the Department of Marine and Fisheries to take action to prevent the possibility of accidents on these lakes where there is a somewhat heavy traffic of motor and rowboats, particularly at night. Representations have also been made to the department by people who are interested in navigation on the Muskoka lakes. A few years ago the petitioners were supported by the municipal bodies of the localities! surrounding those lakes. The government did not act on its own volition with a view to imposing nuisance taxes, as my hon. friend from Muskoka said. We simply desired to meet a request which has been made to us on many occasions. I can see now that the opinions of certain people have changed since that time, but I think that everybody will admit it is quite proper to take the necessary steps to protect life on these lakes, particularly at night when very fast motor boats are likely to place in a very dangerous position those using canoes, rowboats and even small motor boats.


James Arthurs: I do not think that either the member for Muskoka-Ontario or myself has any objection to a regulation to safeguard the public or the users of motor and rowboats and canoes. What we are objecting to is that the government in passing this order in council went further than any request that they received from any organization in
Muskoka or any other part of the Dominion, and imposed a very substantial tax upon the owners and users of boats in that section. If the government want to appoint a man to enforce the present law regarding the carrying of lights at night by motor and other boats, I shall be satisfied as I am sure will be my hon. friend from Muskoka.


Hugh Guthrie: Will the minister elaborate the point raised by the leader of the opposition? What is his authority to declare any body of water a harbour? The act does not give him any power. Here are three or four large lakes and adjacent rivers. We know they do not constitute a harbour. Under what authority does the minister declare those large bodies of water to be a harbour? Parliament might do it, but he has no power.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: May I say in reply that
a large body of water may be termed a harbour, as well as a small body. The extent of the water does not signify.


Hugh Guthrie: Who has the right to
declare it to be a harbour?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We have the right according to the law under which we have acted.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What section?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: My hon. friend the leader
of the opposition stressed certain words, " piers and breakwaters." But he left aside the general wording of the act respecting government harbours.


Hugh Guthrie: No, he mentioned that.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, but he argued more
particularly that piers and breakwaters referred to works which have been constructed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Where is the power to
make this body of water a harbour?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The power under which we acted is contained in section 7:
The governor in council may, on the recommendation of the minister, make rules and regulations for the use -and management of such harbours, wharves, piers and breakwaters, and a tariff or tariffs.


Hugh Guthrie: Manifestly this area is
not a harbour unless it is so declared by some power. The word " harbour " has a definite meaning in the English language. Parliament might do it.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Have the law officers of the crown been consulted about this matter? As the Minister of Justice knows, the only harbours that the Dominion has any power over at all are the "public harbours" as described in the third schedule of the British North

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America Act. My hon. friends the two ministers ought to know the situation very well in view of the Montreal harbour commissioners' case which went through the courts here and then to the privy council. I wish I had had an opportunity of looking up that case; but the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Marine and Fisheries will find that the word "harbour" is discussed in that very case. Certainly a series of lakes is not a harbour. But where do you get your authority? It must come from the British North America Act, and the specific description there is "public harbours." What is a harbour? A harbour is a place where ships ride into anchor. It is not a lake over which ships ply; it is not a sea over which ships ply; and to undertake to pass a law of this description, and then visit penalties if it is not kept, seems to me, frankly, ridiculous. I cannot believe that any law officer of the crown has been consulted in reference to this order in council. I respect law, and I sometimes think that even a poor law should have some respect; but I tell you plainly that I would advise any of these men in that district, in this great series of lakes, who found themselves offended by this order in council to disobey it and to, take the government of the country, at the expense of the government, through the law courts. It has been done before. I think that before this is relied upon we are entitled as a parliament to have the statement of someone learned in the law who will say that this is a proper order in council and within the power of the Dominion of Canada. You cannot deal with anything but public harbours because you have not property in anything else, and the British North America Act is specific.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Not to prolong the discussion, or to expose the government to the possibility suggested by my hon. friend, I am ready to look into the matter again and to submit the case to the Department of Justice.


Peter McGibbon: I thank the minister.


Harry Bernard Short: How many icebreakers are
there and where are they in use?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We have the Lady Grey, the Mikula, the Montcalm and the Stanley. The Stanley, as my hon. friend knows, operates in Nova Scotia.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required to replace three Dominion steamers which are no longer serviceable,
1550,000.
Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: As the item indicates, this vote is to replace three obsolete boats, the Newington, the Scout and the Shamrock.
tMr. Ryckman.]


Harry Bernard Short: What is the size of the
steamers that will take the place of these old ones and what will be the cost of each one?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: They will be 175 feet long.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Have the contracts been let?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Does the minister propose
calling for tenders from firms outside Canada?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No, in Canada only.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister has promised to use his good offices to see that more ships are built in Canada, because our shipyards are not in use. Tenders in this instance will be called for only in Canada?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Alan Webster Neill: One of the boats mentioned
by the minister is the Newington, which operates on the Pacific coast. I want to make sure that the boat which will replace it will be no smaller, because the work is constantly increasing and the boat is overworked as it is.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We are trying to have a better boat.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: What are the boats for?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Lighthouse and coastal service.


Mr. BRADY:: Will the minister give us some particulars about the boat which will replace the very obsolete Newington?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am not in a position to
gratify my hon. friend's legitimate curiosity; the plans and specifications have not yet been completed. The idea is to get boats capable of giving a 'better service.


James Charles Brady: Where is the boat to be
built?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It will certainly be built in Canada because I propose to ask for tenders only in Canada.


James Charles Brady: Are all the various units,
such as -the dry docks in Prince Rupert and Vancouver, within the scope of these tenders?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, certainly.


James Charles Brady: And the lowest tender-


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That is always the case.


Finlay MacDonald: What is the nature of the service?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It is a lighthouse and buoy service, supplying materials and everything necessary for lighthouses.

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Finlay MacDonald: Will any of these boats be on the Atlantic seaboard?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Investigation into wrecks, $6,000.
Milton Neil Campbell: How much of the vote
was spent last year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: 


S4.921.
[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Navigation schools, $9,000.
James Charles Brady: The minister might tell us
where these schools at present function, what is the probability as to their extension, and the scope of the work they perform. If we are going to conserve one of the greatest industries that Canada possesses to-day, then I should like to know from the minister exactly what we may expect from these schools, and what his intention is in regard to their future development.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: These schools are located
at Halifax, Yarmouth, North Sydney, St. John, Quebec, Charlottetown, Collingwood, Vancouver and Prince Rupert. At present we do not see any need for increasing the number, but we propose to maintain them as profitably as possible for those who desire to study navigation.


Harry Bernard Short: How many certificates were
issued by these schools last year, and was there any increase last year over the year before?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: These schools do not issue certificates.


Harry Bernard Short: The men passed their
examinations; surely they must issue certificates.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Not at the schools.


Harry Bernard Short: The schools recommend
them?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes. They may give the men certificates that they have completed the course, but the masters' and mates' certificates are issued by the department after examination.


James Charles Brady: I know these navigation
schools are most essential and that they form part of the scheme for conserving our fisheries, but what is their definite purpose? What does a young man really get when he enters one of these schools? Does he get a certificate, and if so, what is the nature of it? There are many men very anxious to have
the opportunity of entering a school of this kind. Canada is very fortunate in having not only a great seaboard but also a large number of young men who are ambitious and wish to get all they can from such schools.
I should like the minister to tell me what a young man gets when he attends one of these navigation schools.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: They get instruction with regard to seamanship and navigation which permits them to qualify as masters and mates.


James Charles Brady: And under what conditions are these certificates granted?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: These schools do not issue certificates; they give the young men the necessary instruction which allows them to pass an examination held by a board of examiners appointed by the department, and the certificates are granted by that board of examiners. At these schools they only receive the instruction necessary to enable them to pass the examination.


James Charles Brady: It seems to me that $9,000 is a very small sum for these navigation schools, of which I think the minister said there were five or six. Perhaps he might give us the details of this expenditure.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: [DOT] At Halifax we pay the instructor $2,100; at Yarmouth the instructor receives $1,620; North Sydney, $600; St. John, $2,100; Quebec, $440; grant to Queen's University, Kingston, for lessons in navigation, $500; Charlottetown, $500; Prince Rupert, $1,000, and in Collingwood the instructor is paid as an examiner for the lectures he gives. The same system is followed in Vancouver; Captain Elliott Lindsay is paid for his lectures out of the salary he receives as examiner.


Harry Bernard Short: How many persons took the examinations for masters and mates in each of these schools?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I cannot tell my hon. friend how many of these pupils have passed the examination, but I have before me the average attendance, as follows: Halifax, 16; St. John, 6; Yarmouth, 7; Charlottetown, 3; Quebec, 34; Kingston, 29; Prince Rupert, 15; Vancouver, 14; Collingwood, Ontario, 19.


Thomas Merritt Cayley: Does the instruction consist only of lectures, or is there practical instruction as well?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Lectures only.


Finlay MacDonald: I should like to ask the minister if the examiners at

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North Sydney, Halifax, Yarmouth and St. John are the same people who give the instructions?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No, they are not the same; the instructor at Halifax is Captain H. M. O'Hara, while the examiner is Captain Michin.


Finlay MacDonald: Would it not be a saving to the government to let the schools issue the certificates? In votes 153 and 155 we have some $29,500, and I think if those two items were combined we could save money.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That is worth looking into.


Arthur Edward Ross: Who is the examiner and instructor at Kingston?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is a grant to Queen's university.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is it Captain
Barrett?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Mr. BOIV  MAN@: I should like to draw the minister's attention to a matter which arose out of the wreck of the Manassoo, on Georgian bay. The mate had his papers taken away from him and a great many citizens feel that they should now be restored. Has the minister considered this matter?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am giving consideration to that representation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Registration of shipping, $3,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: Will the minister explain what is covered by this item?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This appropriation is for the purpose of defraying such costs as may be involved in the registration of Canadian shipping. Part I of the Canada Shipping Act provides that Canadian ships must be registered before engaging in trade. The greater part of the expenditure is in connection with the printed forms and certain appliances. As the principal customs officers at ports of registry act as registrars of shipping, no salary expenditure is involved.


Arthur Edward Ross: Has the minister anything to do with the law concerning the directorships of steamship companies? Of course the minister has nothing to do with the American law, but under their law a Canadian cannot be a director. In the formation of the board of directors of Canadian steamship companies this same rule does not apply, and I know of one case where only one

Canadian is on the board. I think the time has come when we should insist that the boards of directors of Canadian steamship companies should consist entirely of Canadians.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: As long as the company is incorporated under British law and the principal place of business is in Canada, wo register the ship. We do not have the same regulations as exist in the United States.


Arthur Edward Ross: Does not the minister think that it is about time we protected our own shippers and insisted that the boards of directors should be Canadian?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It might be a good suggestion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Removal of obstructions in navigable waters, $5,000.
James Charles Brady: What navigable waters are included in this grant?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: All navigable waters within Canada.


James Charles Brady: I should like to know just what navigable waters are to be cleared of obstructions.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The rivers and lakes where there is a wreck or in which navigation is blocked.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It is a contingency fund.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Where navigation is impeded through some obstacle in the river.


James Charles Brady: I should like to direct the attention of the minister to the Skeena river, in British Columbia. This river is navigable for many miles, but there are a few rocks in the river near the village of Usk, and when the flood waters rise each year the surrounding property is inundated, with consequent danger to the inhabitants of that place. This town is on the Canadian National railway, about 12 miles from Terrace and 100 miles from Prince Rupert. Has the minister received any requests for the removal of these rocks? I think $1,000 would cover this work.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Give him $1,000.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No representations have
been made to the department up to the present time.


Henry Herbert Stevens: You have a request now.


Alan Webster Neill: What -is the policy of the government with regard to the removal of Ripple rock in Seymour narrows? The tide

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there is very swift, running about 4 knots per hour and this rock is about 16 feet below the water at low tide. The American boats on route to Alaska are forced to lie up for five or six hours to wait for the tide to turn, and on one or two occasions a wreck, with possibly a large loss of life, has been barely averted. I am afraid that this will occur some day and I think the government should give this matter some attention. There seems to be some divergence of opinion about it; some people think it may be useful whenever a railway is built across the narrows, as the rock might be used as a base. However, that time is very far distant and if the rock were removed it would only mean that the piers would have to be sunk a few feet deeper. Of course this work could not be completed out of this vote, but I would ask the government what steps they intend to take in regard to this matter.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am not in a position to state the policy of the government in that regard. That work would come under the Department of Public Works rather than the Department of Marine and Fisheries, because that department has the administration of what is known as the Navigable Waters Protection Act. I will pass on the request of the hon. gentleman to my colleague, the Minister of Public Works.


Alan Webster Neill: This vote is for small items
only?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Inspection of live stock shipping, $4,500.
William Thomas Lucas: What is this item for?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The inspection of ships
carrying live stock to European ports.


William Thomas Lucas: Very little live stock is being shipped at the present time.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


William Thomas Lucas: What amount was spent last year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The amount was S3,644.
Item agTeed to.
To continue subsidies for wrecking plants-* Quebec and British Columbia, $45,000.


Alan Webster Neill: Mr. Chairman, I would like
to renew my annual request that the government consider the increasing of this amount for British Columbia. The government subsidizes a very good wrecking plant, one of the best in the world, but it is stationed at
Esquimalt all the time. Esquimalt is at the south end of Vancouver island, and the plant is available for any part of the Pacific coast. But this plant is needed to a greater extent, especially in the winter months, on the west coast of Vancouver island, which is known as the graveyard of the Pacific. The government has attempted to meet this situation by maintaining a small gasoline lifeboat at Bamfield, and have supplemented that service in the winter months by maintaining one of the fishing patrol boats or one of the navy boats at that point. These boats are much too light for the work. They were mine sweepers during the war, but it would be useless for them to go out in a heavy sea and attempt to pull a steamer out of danger by towing it, or anything of that kind. The plant at Esquimalt is admirably suited for this purpose, and if a few thousand dollars were added to the vote a suitable plant could be maintained at Bamfield and (he government would have a life-saving service of which they would be proud. .The crews of the boats which are located there at present are very capable, seafaring men and I have no doubt that they would answer a call of distress under any conditions, and might possibly lose their lives. The fear has always been on my conscience, that we are asking these men to go out in boats which are not safe. This condition could be overcome by the government providing a few thousand dollars to meet the extra cost of keeping one of these fully equipped salvage boats on the west coast. Even if it were kept there for only two months i't might provide valuable service, as the other boats could serve for the remaining two months.


Harry Bernard Short: Why is it that this vote
includes only Quebec and British Columbia? Does the minister not realize that a little shipping comes in and out of the ports in the maritime provinces? Why are they neglected in subsidies of this kind? We have several wrecking plants in the maritime provinces, but I understand they are not included in this subsidy at all. If the maritime provinces can maintain wrecking plants, why cannot Quebec and British Columbia maintain their own wrecking plants without a subsidy; or if we are going to give a subsidy to those two provinces, why not give a subsidy to the maritime provinces? Why discriminate against them? Personally I do not think it is necessary for either Quebec or British Columbia to receive a subsidy. They could very well go without it and we could use that $45,000 for some better purpose. But if it is necessary to subsidize wrecking plants in those two provinces, it is just as necessary to subsidize

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similar plants in the maritime provinces. I think gross discrimination is being shown in this regard.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We are not subsidizing
wrecking plants in the maritime provinces because the private companies there have enough work and a revenue large enough to take care of their plants and to operate them successfully. In British Columbia and Quebec they have not enough revenue to maintain the wrecking plants required for the safety of navigation, and that is why we give a subsidy to those companies.


Harry Bernard Short: With the shipping that goes
in and out of the Pacific ports and up the St. Lawrence river, I think wrecking plants should be able to be maintained there as profitably as they can be in the maritime provinces. I do not think the minister's answer is satisfactory at all. I know a number of wrecking plants in the maritimes have made no money whatever in the last few years; in fact several of them have been obliged to go out of business.


Alan Webster Neill: I suggest to the hon. member for Digby-Annapolis that British Columbia might forego a share of that $45,000 in favour of the maritimes if they would give us our share of the $160,000 annually they have been keeping from our fishermen for the last forty years.


Harry Bernard Short: That was threshed out before the committee on marine and fisheries.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Life-saving service, including rewards for
saving life, $80,000.
James Charles Brady: There is no increase in
this vote and nevertheless we are faced with an appalling loss of life among our fishermen every year. Anybody who knows of the loss of life last year on the Atlantic and Pacific seaboards must realize that as regards our life-saving appliances, we are hoplessly, I might truly say, wilfully negligent. On the Pacific seaboard to-day, along Hecate straits, where the greatest fishing industry in Canada exists, where the majority of the fishermen who are the producers in this important industry are toiling, there are no life-saving facilities. I want to drive this home to the minister:	We who represent the fisher-folk
do not stand up in the House of Commons just for fun; we are here to advocate what we believe is essential, and I wish to say now that, as regards life-saving along the Pacific coast, the government has not done its duty to the men who go down to the sea in ships. There should be a further increase in this all-important vote and the British Columbia

coast should be included in it. It is natural for those who live in the eastern provinces remote from the sea to think the man who comes here and presents a picture of marine life, which is not merely wonderful in itself but which is full of the greatest dangers, adventures, and risks, is speaking of something which is trivial. Such is not the case. It is a great question and worthy of the consideration of every member of this House of Commons. What I want to bring out is this: we are voting $80,000 for life-saving for all Canada. I should like to ask:	How many
members in this chamber can tell me the loss of life that has taken place in the last twelve months on the Atlantic and Pacific seaboards? I challenge any hon. member to give me the answer. There has not been one month from October, 1928, to January, 1929, in which each day did not see the loss of three or four human lives. From the Lunenburg fleet alone last year there were lost scores of men. The Pacific waters likewise took their toll. I want to ask the Minister of Marine and Fisheries to give life-saving appliances for the fibbing fleet of Prince Rupert. Along the Queen Charlotte islands, where thousands of our fishermen toil to give revenue to Canada, there is sore need of life-saving stations. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries knows what I am talking about better than any other man in the House of Commons. He knows that in the waters of the Pacific coast right from Vancouver sweeping north, there is not one life-saving station that will help the fishermen when in distress. Will the minister promise that he will do something in that regard?
MR. SHORT: I should like to refer to the life-saving staition in my constituency and the condition of the boat they are using there. This station was built, I think, in 1912 or 1913, I understand they are using the same boat to-day and I believe there is in that boat the same engine that was in it originally when it was placed there in 1913 or 1914, although the boat was a secondhand one then. The boat is totally incapable of performing the work that she is expected to do. If we are to operate these life-saving stations they should be equipped with suitable boats to weather the storms in which they are required to go out. I am calling the minister's attention to this. I know nothing whatever about the other stations, but I know that at Bay View, Digby county, the equipment is totally inadequate for the services that it is expected to render.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: A new engine is being
installed this year.

Agriculture Committee


Harry Bernard Short: I think a new boat is needed too. The present boat is about twenty years old.


Alan Webster Neill: I was promised a new engine
for the life-saving station at Bamfield; does this vote include provision for it? It is worn out and never had sufficient power.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Finlay MacDonald: Has
anything been done towards improvement of the life-saving station on the island of Scatarie? I brought this matter to the attention of the house in 1926, 1927 and 1928.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am sorry to say that nothing has been done up to the present time.


Finlay MacDonald: I cannot understand the attitude of the minister when he makes such a statement, after we have brought this matter to his attention and the attention of the house on so many different occasions. Scatarie island is known as the graveyard of the Atlantic. There have been more wrecks on the island of Scatarie than on any other portion of the north Atlantic coast. Shipping going east and west along our Nova Scotia shore must pass the island of Scatarie, and in the fog Scatarie island seems ito be the graveyard of most of our Atlantic shipping. I brought this matter to the attention of the minister as recently as last session, when the whole crew of a boat was lost on Scatarie island. When I was campaigning in 1928 I viewed the remains of a ship and saw five bodies representing lives that could have been saved if we had had a proper life-saving station on Scatarie island. I also saw the life-saving station at that time. There was a boat that I could put my fingers through. There was not even a gun to fire a line on the island. Human lives are worth more than the dividends of corporations and companes to which this government hands out subsidies, such as the salvage companies for Quebec and British Columbia, and yet the government cannot find money to save human lives. We demand a proper lifesaving station and proper life-saving equipment for Scatarie island, and I am going to stand up in this house and fight for a lifesaving station on Scatarie island and continue to fight for it until I get it. I would like to have a definite answer from the minister as to what he intends to do about it.
Item stands.
Progress reported.


MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS
Mr. J. L. BROWN (Lisgar):: Mr. Speaker, with the unanimous consent of the house, I beg leave to present the fourteenth report of the select standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.


Hewitt Bostock: By leave of the house. AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION


GRAIN ACT AMENDMENT
Mr. W. F. KAY (Brome-Missisquoi):: With the unanimous consent of the house, I beg to present the fourth report of the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization, and to move that the report be concurred in. I may say, Mr. Speaker, that the report of the subcommittee was unanimous, and the report of the main committee was unanimous. I think it would expedite the business of the house if the discussion could take place on the bill instead of on the report.


Hewitt Bostock: By unanimous consent.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think we should agree
to the report being concurred in now if it is distinctly understood that we are not committing ourselves either to approval or to disapproval of the report.


Hewitt Bostock: Certainly.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, June 6, 1929.