1929-06-14

BANKRUPTCY ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. C. E. FERLAND (Juliette) moved the first reading of Bill, No. 39S, (from the Senate) to amend the Bankruptcy Act as respects locality of a debtor.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. H. B. ADSHEAD (East Calgary):: Mr. Speaker, the leader of the government in the Senate apparently has complained that certain news was lost in transit between the
House of Commons and the Senate. Can the Prime Minister give us any information as to how it was lost?


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I aim afraid I have no
information. My hon. friend will have to judge for himself, as I will have to do.



VISIT TO WASHINGTON OF PRIME MINISTER

[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Sir GEORGE PERLEY (Argenteuil):: We are all very much interested in the persistent reports to the effect that the Prime Minister of Great Britain is likely bo visit Washington in the near future, and the suggestion has been made that the Prime Minister of Canada may be asked to be there at the same time. Since this is probably the last opportunity we will have to make such an inquiry, I would like the Prime Minister to say whether he has any information on the subject?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is another case in
which my hon. friend has just as much information as I have.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Air services-Royal Canadian Air Force-further amount required, $250,000.
Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: This amount is required to make
preparation and do preliminary work in connection with a permanent combined land and seaplane training station. As the committee knows, Camp Borden was used as a concentration camp in 1916; later it was used by the imperial munitions board for a time and then was repurchased by the department and has been in use more or less temporarily as an air force training camp since about 1920. Frome time to time representations have been made that Camp Borden was not satisfactory even for the purpose of land plane training, and it has been found very necessary to increase seaplane training, particularly in view of the very large amount of work we do in this country which requires seaplanes. It is felt that a double overhead should be done away with as soon as possible and that the department should have a combined station. A large number of sites have been examined and, as I said the other day, it would seem as though Trenton is the most- desirable site to be found so far. I could go into much greater detail if the committee desired, but
Supply-National Defence

this vote is for the purpose of commencing the construction and development of a combined station.


Mr. TUMMON:: The minister madie this
announcement the other day on another item and I think he intimated that the matter might be discussed when this vote came up. Needless to say, I am very much pleased that the department has decided on the bay of Quinte as the place where this camp will be located. This question of the establishment of a camp for the Royal Canadian Air Force for both land planes and seaplanes, along the bay of Quinte, has been discussed for many years in that distract. For some time it was expected that Camp Mohawk, a few miles west of Deseronto, would 'be selected. This camp was operated quite extensively by the Imperial government during the war and was looked upon as a very excellent camp. The people of that district expected the camp to be established there, particularly in view of the fact that in the report of the Department of National Defence for 1926, under the heading, "No. 1 Flying Station, Camp Rord'en" the following appeared:
The air station at Camp Borden, at present in use. is that which was built during the war by the Imperial Munitions Board as a training station for the R.A.F. units recruited in Canada. The station, though admirably suitable for flying operations on a large scale, is too large for the present establishment of the R.C.A.F. Maintenance charges in general are altogether disproportionate to the present strength of the R.C.A.F. The camp is, as well, isolated and difficult of access. For these reasons it is hoped that accommodation, on a more suitable scale, involving smaller maintenance charges, may be made available at an early date for thp training of the R.C.A.F.
With this in view, an excellent site has been surveyed at Deseronto for a joint seaplane and aeroplane base, and it is hoped that funds may be made available for the construction of the necessary buildings in the near future.
Naturally there was considerable disappointment at Deseronto when it was learned that another location had been decided upon. I would like to ask the minister if he would make a statement as to the considerations which contributed to the making of this choice.


James Layton Ralston: If the committee will permit me to say so, I think it would be undesirable at this time to put on record the factors which were considered in respect to something like thirty different places which have been examined. The reports are confidential and perhaps it would not be in the best interests of the service to have these matters spread on the record; the towns themselves might prefer that they should not be. A deputation from Deseronto
I Mr. Ralston.]
recently interviewed me and asked that the proposal in regard to Trenton be reconsidered. Deseronto had been under consideration and in 1926 it was thought to be the best site, but after that time Trenton came into the picture and a thorough examination was made of that site. I wanted Deseronto to feel that their claim had been thoroughly considered and I told them that our one object was -to obtain a location which was most suitable to the service, having regard to the many factors which had to be considered. I told them that Trenton had been selected after a full investigation by responsible technical officers, and I could not hold out any hope that any change would be made. In order that the citizens of Deseronto might be assured that every angle of the matter had been studied, I offered to have the relative facilities, the advantages and disadvantages of the two localities checked up again in order that no paramount feature in favour of Deseronto might be overlooked.


Mr. THOMPSON:: Would the minister
advise the committee as to the amount which has been expended upon Camp Borden, and the amount which it is calculated will be necessary to expend upon the new camp at Trenton?


James Layton Ralston: Camp Borden was a
concentration camp in 1916, and 40,000 men were quartered there, while the proposed camp will have a capacity of 500 men. The committee will see that a comparison between costs of a camp for 40,000 and one for 500 would not be a fair one. We have made a careful estimate of the existing facilities at Camp Borden, outside of the land itself, and have arrived at the conclusion that notwithstanding the cost the buildings and plant would represent only a valuation of $234,000 for the purpose of being usefully utilized in connection with the development of a permanent station at that camp. Outside of that, the total expenditure at Camp Borden could be regarded as an expenditure for a military concentration camp for war purposes, and not for aviation in time of peace. The amount which was paid for Camp Borden in connection with aviation was $375,000, which was paid to the imperial munitions board at the time the buildings were taken over on a 25 per cent basis.


Alfred Burke Thompson: What has been the
total cost of the camp to date?


James Layton Ralston: I will give my hon.
friend the construction items. Since that $375,000 was spent, the air board has spent $37,000 on construction.-I will give my hon.

Supply-National Dejence
friend the round figures-then the air force spent $60,000 and the Canadian corr3 of signallers spent $14,000. The air ooard has spent on maintenance $110,000, the air force $175,000 and the corps of signallers, $20,000. The actual capital expenditure since that time has therefore been $111,000, bemuse my hon. friend will understand that the items for maintenance do not enter into the calculation because they are annual expenditures which would be required in any event.


Alfred Burke Thompson: What did it cost the government before that?


James Layton Ralston: The whole 17,000 acres composing the camp were not of course used for the air force by any means. The total amount expended on the whole camp up to the time the imperial munitions board took it over would be about $1,584,000 for construction, and about $21,000 for maintenance.


Alfred Burke Thompson: What will the new camp cost?


James Layton Ralston: The buildings at either camp would cost about the same. It is estimated that necessary buildings and improvements at Camp Borden would cost about $1,400,000, while the estimated cost for buildings at some other point, without married quarters would be $1,100,000 and with married quarters about $1,500,000. In addition to the $1,400,000 which would be necessary to be expended at Camp Borden, the committee will understand that we would have to spend probably $500,000 to provide a seaplane base at another point.


Mr. ROWE:: This camp being situated in
the riding which I have the honour to represent, it seems to me that at this time, when we are talking so much about economy, this would be a very extravagant move for the government to make. Anyone familiar with Camp Borden will readily appreciate that the camp should be sufficient to maintain the nucleus of an air force, and especially in view of the efficiency of that camp in times of war. I quite appreciate that the vast acreage would not be needed to maintain a training camp, but it is situated inland and this factor was considered as being of great importance by the Imperial government and by the royal air force. The Imperial government and the Department of Militia and Defence recommended this site very highly. Criticism has been made as to lack of transportation to the camp, but it is situated on a switch only four miles long on the Canadian Pacific railway and five miles long on the Canadian National railway. It is only
about half a mile from a good highway, and it seems to me that with the conveniences which are at the camp at present it would be sufficient to maintain a training camp for the purposes for which the minister proposes to vote this money. The camp has been equipped with seventeen hangars, one hundred and twenty by sixty feet each; each hangar capable of housing six aeroplanes, or a total of about one hundred. There is an engine shop, sixty by forty; a carpenter shop, sixty by forty; t^o large barracks eighty by eighty, two storeys high, each capable of housing comfortably seventy-five men, all steam heated, electric lighted, with other quarters for married men; twenty cottages for married officers and their families; school for forty pupils; hospital capable of looking after thirty-five or forty patients. It has in fact, everything necessary for the comfort of the soldiers, and the only feature that could be improved is the location for a hydroplane base. Further, it is within fifteen miles of Kempenfeldt bay, which would be a most appropriate place for a base for hydroplanes. Surely it is a consideration if a camp is situated where there is a denser population and where there is heavy traffic on the highway similar to that at Trenton. Hon. members who are familiar with the Toronto district know the trouble they have had at Leaside in keeping the traffic back and avoiding accidents. There is a large patrol force there in order to keep the traffic back when flights are being made.
I wi^h also to impress upon the committee the fact that a camp situated on the boundary line between this country and a foreign country is not as appropriate for a military camp as a camp situated some fifty miles away, as the present Camp Borden is. That was a feature which was strongly impressed by the British government on the royal air force when it was established at Camp Borden. The United States has fifty-three aeroplane bases and only three of them have accommodation for hydroplanes and aeroplanes as combination bases, and surely if such a large country as the United States consider it sufficient to have, out of fifty-three, only three with hydroplane facilities, we should take this increased expenditure into consideration. Moreover, I think only one of those fifty-three, the one at Mount Clemens, is anywhere near the boundary line. It is for the committee to consider whether it is wise to spend millions of the public money to establish a military camp close to the international boundary to replace a camp that has cost between $3,000,000 and $4,000,000.
Supply-National Defence

The sum of $375,000 that was paid by this government was only about twenty-five cents on the dollar of what the camp cost the British government. While there are 16,000 or 20,000 acres of camp ground it is not all used for aviation. There is an aerodrome a mile square. It has been recognized by most eminent authorities on aviation that Camp Barden is one of the best camps in the British Empire for such a purpose. At Leaside and other camps, after heavy rains, they cannot take off with their planes, but at Camp Borden, owing to the sandy loam, they can take off in safety fifteen minutes after the heaviest rain. It is an absolute extravagance to waste Camp Borden which has cost the country so much money, and a camp which was sufficient in time of war should be sufficient to maintain the nucleus of an aviation force in time of peace.


Alfred Burke Thompson: I feel that I must join with my colleague from Dufferin-Simcoe in protest against this expenditure. Undoubtedly the amount already expended on the site has been upwards of $2,000,000 and it will take a like amount to establish a camp at Trenton. I venture to assert that when the Trenton camp is finished it will not be equal to what we are going to scrap at Camp Borden. During the present session the government have retained, to a certain extent, the sales tax which falls so heavily upon the poor people and they have done so on the ground that they need the money. The government have also refused to contribute toward highway construction and technical 'education on the ground that they have no money to spend on such objects. Now we are asked to scrap a camp, costing upwards of $2,000,000 and to establish a camp on a new site.
If the minister is sincere in his statement-that he wants to make a combination camp, why does he not utilize some of those magnificent stretches of water that are almost- in the immediate vicinity of Camp Borden? He could establish ait several poiimts an auxiliary camp to be under the jurisdiction of the main camp, which would serve the dual purpose equally well and at a very small cost to the people. The hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe has mentioned Kempenfeldt bay within fifteen miles and an auxiliary camp could be established there. He could even go to lake Couchiehing with the town of Orillia near by and a camp could be established there. If he wants to go on the southern shore of Georgian bay, all in the county of Simcoe nearby, there are such places as Collingwood, Penetanguishene, Midland, Coldwater or Vic-

toria Harbour, Waufoa-ushene or Fesserfcon, all on land-locked harbours, and they are admirably situated for this purpose. Now we are asked to give up all that we have spent there and duplicate the expenditure in a new place. Has the minister considered what a serious thing it is for that community to lift ou't bodily a population of 700 souls and transport it to a new location altogether? This camp has been in existence for fifteen years; social and business relations have been established, and all this is going to be disrupted by the action of the minister. I think he would be well advised if he would let the matter stand in abeyance and look more closely into the question of Camp Borden. Camp Borden was not chosen hurriedly in time of war. If the minister will study the records of his department, he will find that- the military authorities had for years previously thought of establishing a camp there. It seems to me that this proposition is a useless expenditure of money, and the matter could be handled much better than by scrapping the valuable camp we have at Camp Borden.


William Ernest Tummon: I am not at all surprised
at my good friends from the district where Camp Borden is situated being anxious to retain that camp there. As to the suitability of a location for a camp, I do not feel that I am in a position to speak as an expert. I must put myself largely in the judgment of those who are capable of selecting a site for such a camp. The location at Trenton has been mentioned by my hon. friends in comparison with Camp Borden. While I cannot take the position that I am capable of judging, yet there are advantages there that in my opinion should be looked upon as of special importance as regards the location for such a plant. It is on the bay of Quinte, a-landlocked body of water. It is protected on the north by the mainland, on the south by the county of Prince Edward, and on the west by that strip of land which connects Prince Edward county with the mainland. It is close to a prosperous and growing town, with a city on the other side to the east. There is a paved highway running between Toronto and Montreal, and both the Canadian. Pacific and Canadian National railways, thus affording not only rail and highway transportation but water transportation as well. If a larger body of water is needed, lake Ontario is only a few miles away What I have said in regard to Trenton can I think be said with equal force of Camp Mohawk. The minister has said that he proposes to

Supply-National Defence
investigate further the camp at Mohawk, and I think that will meet the approval of those most interested.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: I am not going to
discuss whether Camp Borden is suitable or not. I wish to consider this question from the point of view of economy. I think the minister, before the item goes through, should and must make a further statement in regard to this selection. It has always been considered that the camp near Deseronito was an ideal air force camp. Until within a few short weeks it was practically accepted as the site for the new camp. Here is a camp that has been tried, where there has been service and training, and it has proved absolutely satisfactory to everybody, and to my knowledge satisfactory to the whole area. But now within the last few weeks a new site has been selected. I think the house should know the reason why such a change has been made.
It must be accepted that Mohawk camp is absolutely acceptable both from past experience, and according to the advice of the technical officials in the department. I have spoken with them and I know that it is absolutely acceptable to them. I have no interest in the removal of the camp from Camp Borden to any other place, except from the point of view of economy, but I have felt that if any change was to be made, no better place could be selected than Camp Mohawk.
I want the house and the committee to realize that we have at Camp Mohawk today all the water supply ready for use. That means a saving of hundredls of thousands of dollars. Are you going to scrap Camp Borden with all the expenditure that you have made there, and are you going to scrap Camp Mohawk with all the expenditure that has been made at that place? I have seen a letter to the effect that it had been practically decided to make Camp Borden the permanent camp. Neither of these two sites, Camp Mohawk and Camp Trenton, is in my constituency, but both are a short distance away, and I do say that when several hundred dollars can be saved in the selection of a site, we should insist upon saving that money. I think it is up to the minister to explain this sudden change of location. Not only that, but there are numerous cement bases at Camp Mohawk all ready, which with a very little expenditure could be enlarged and made suitable as buildings. The camp was actually used during the war and has been used ever since, and it has proved acceptable to all parties. I will
guarantee that it is acceptable to the technical officers of the department, and that they consider it preferable to moving to a site that was never formerly considered by anybody. You have these two sites on the same body of water. Training, I believe, can be done under more favourable conditions at Camp Mohawk, where you have a well protected site. It has always been a training ground. Before the selection of Petawawa camp, Deseronto artillery camp was the only training camp in Canada. Here is a camp fixed up with a water supply ready for use, with concrete bases that can be made use of. I have no doubt that the technical men might say that these concrete bases would not be acceptable. I know both grounds and I want to know what are the advantages of this new camp pointed1 out by the technical mien. Never mind the feeling of the people of these two towns; it is the country and economy that we are interested in. Surely there cannot be so much difference between two places only fifty or sixty miles apart that we must suddenly scrap hundreds of thousands of dollars and start a new camp. I want to know what are the advantages of this training camp before I will vote for it.


James Layton Ralston: I think my hon. friend might be satisfied with what I suggested, that I am perfectly willing, and have so told the deputation from Deseronto, to go into the matter further with the object of making absolutely sure as to the relative advantages of these two places. I can give my hon. friend in detail what the technical officers represent as the advantages, but after all it seems to me, having given my hon. friend that assurance, he might be reasonably satisfied. I can assure him that there has been no change in the last few weeks. Trenton was first discussed by the officers in July, 1928, and I have here a list of no less than a dozen technical officers of the department, including the engineers, all of whom favour Trenton, but at the same time in view of the fact that the deputation came to me^with such strong representations, I undertook to make further investigation to see if any of the paramount features, which Deseronto alleged, had been overlooked. I hope my hon. friend will accept that. Our only idea is to find the very best site, having in view the interests of the service and nothing else.


Mr. MANION:: What would be the objection to leaving Camp Borden where it is to be used by the land air forces, and establishing at Trenton a camp for the water air forces? I understand that in the United
Supply-National Defence

States except in very rare cases they do not have the land forces and the water forces in the same station. In the interests of economy, I would ask the minister if it would not be advisable to leave the land forces where they are, and to establish the water forces at Trenton.


James Layton Ralston: I do not think my hon.
friend got the figures that I gave. I pointed out that if we stay at Borden we will still have to make a very substantial permanent expenditure of something over one million dollars; the buildings there are not fireproof and we have had over half a million dollars fire losses; that we have $1,700,000 worth of technical equipment and stores there and therefore Borden would have to have permanent structures if we were to stay there. In addition to that, if my hon. friend's suggestion were accepted we would have to have another base for seaplane training at Trenton or some other suitable place.


Robert James Manion: I did not mention Trenton particularly. I meant the point decided on.


James Layton Ralston: It would mean not only
double expenditure in connection with plant, but also double overhead. Dealing with what my hon. friend from Kingston-


William Ernest Tummon: Might I just say a word
before the minister proceeds? Reference was made to the air organization in the United States. Is it not a fact that there they have two different services while in Canada we have only one?


James Layton Ralston: That is the answer. In
the United States there are three air services as a matter of fact, the navy, the military and the Department of Commerce. Here all the air services are combined under one department.. One hon. member said that the United States have 53 training stations while we have one central station. I think our form of combined organization will lead the committee to the conclusion that it is in the interests of economy that we combine our seaplane and land plane training if we possibly can. That is what we are endeavouring to do. We are not scrapping Camp Borden as a permanent aviation plant; it never was such. There is, as I have said, plant at Borden to the value of $234,000 which might be utilized in connection with a combined station; but when you got through with spending over a million dollars you would have only a land plane base, with disadvantages which I need not take the time of the committee to enumerate. I can assure hon. members that the matter has been carefully looked into

by the officers of the department, and they say that Borden cannot be made a suitable place for an aviation training station. My hon. friend said that the British authorities reported something to the contrary. I think he will find that that is not so. They simply took an army concentration camp such as we had and adapted it as an aviation camp; but it was not primarily an aviation camp and was not so constructed.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: May I mention that it takes a little time to arrange for the proceedings of prorogation, a number of matters having to be considered in connection therewith. I would suggest, therefore, to the committee that we leave over for the time being items that are likely to be discussed at some length and dispose of what might be termed non-contentious items, in order that the government may be able to form some idea as to the hour at which prorogation can be arranged. We have taken nearly one hour on this single item. I think we might well proceed with other items and take up this particular item again if it is going to involve much more in the way of discussion.
Item stands.



INDIANS

[Stage Direction]
Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories-
Hospitals, medical attendance, etc.-further amount required, $25,000.
Supplies for destitute Indians-further amount required, $30,000.
To provide farm working outfits for graduates of Indian schools. $15,000.
Surveys-further amount required, $5,000.
Sioux-further amount required, $8,000.- Total, $83,000.
Mr. CAMPBELL:: Under this item I wish to draw' the attention of the minister to the sale of section 26, township 32, range 32, west of the first meridian. This land was formerly used as pasturage by the Keesee-koose Indian reserve. At different times there was talk of its being thrown open for sale. A number of people wrote to the department asking to be given an opportunity to bid. There are letters on the file showing that departmental officials promised to notify some of these people when the land would be offered for sale. However, it was finally withdrawn in 1926 and remained as pasture. Later on apparently a certain party got after this land and it was sold to him privately at a good deal less than its actual value. One of the gentlemen who had correspondence with the department, a barrister and real estate agent, tells me that he had offers

Supply-Interior-Indians
from bona fide farmers in the district as high as $20 an acre; but the land was sold privately for $10 an acre.
The council of the village of Pelly asked for a right of way through this land to a quarter section on the beach of Racing lake, where they have a recreation ground. After considerable correspondence the department agreed to grant them a road allowance, the papers so far as I know were all completed, and all that was necessary was to have a survey of the road. There was some detailed work done in that connection and finally the village authorities did have a surveyor on the ground. The road was laid out, there being no doubt whatever about accepting the word of the departmental officials, because the matter was settled so far as they were concerned. However, after the survey was made and after they had done some work on the road they suddenly found that the land had been sold, and the party who had purchased it then stepped into the picture. On appealing to the departmental officials we found, as they had to admit, that consideration had to be given to the purchaser; and a good deal of correspondence is still going on. But the village even at best must now pay the other party a considerable amount for the land. They have been kept out of it for a long time and at the moment they are not absolutely sure that arrangements can be made.
I protest, first, against the failure of the department to carry out the promise they made, that they would notify the people in the district when the land was sold-and it was apparently sold to a man whom we suspect of being a political favourite, for very much less than its intrinsic value. That is the first complaint; and the second is that a direct obligation was undertaken by the department to provide the village of Pelly with that road. On the strength of the assurances given by the officials this survey was made, and later on the department's promise was deliberately disregarded and the land sold to private parties.
I wish to quote from sessional paper 169 a letter dated August 27, 1926, to the secretary of the Department of Indian Affairs, and signed by W. M. Graham, Indian commissioner. The letter reads:
On the 12th instant I wrote, recommending withdrawal from sale of section 26-32-32, Wist in the Keeseekoose reserve, as the area can be profitably used by the Indians as a pasture and I shall be glad if you will inform me whether the action recommended has been taken.
A further letter, No. 7 on the file, dated September 3, is addressed to Mr. Graham, the Indian commissioner:
Replying to your letter of the 27th ultimo, under your file No. 310-6, I may say that the sale covering section 26-32-32, Wl, Keeseekoose reserve, will be withdrawn from our sale list and reserved for the Indians in the reserve, as requested.
Apparently up to that time the matter was closed, and then appears a letter from George W. McPhee, the 'honourable member for Yorkton, dated December 15, 1926. It is addressed to the Hon. Charles Stewart, Minister of the Interior, and is marked personal. Before I read that letter I wish to commend the minister for his decision to leave personal letters in the file and to bring them down in sessional papers. On a previous occasion I had a good deal of argument with the Postmaster General (Mr. Veniot) over this question of including in the file personal letters of a really public nature and bringing them down. I consider it an infringement of the rights of parliament to withhold such letters, and in this case, whatever blame I attach to the Minister of the Interior in other respects, I commend his fairness in putting these letters on the file. This particular letter reads:
Mr. McKay wrote last summer to Mr. Graham. Indian commissioner, asking with respect to section 26. township 32, range 32, west 1st. and he received a letter dated June 18. giving the acreage of this section. Mr. McKay wanted to buy the west half and forwarded a certified cheque for $200 deposit. This was returned to him on the 30th of August. stating that the land had been withdrawn from sale. I know this land and I feel satisfied that it is not required by the Indians and should be in the hands of someone who will make it productive. Mr. McKay has offered $7 an acre for the west half and $2 an acre for the east quarter of this section.
The letter is signed George W. McPhee.
First I want to call attention to the fact that the hon. member for Yorkton takes upon himself to say that the land is not required by the Indians, whereas in fact there is a letter on the file from the Indian commissioner who states that the land is required for pasturage; moreover, there is a further letter which I shall read, written by the Indian agent, saying that the land is required for pasturage. As a matter of fact, I know that up to that time the Indians of Keeseekoose had no other pasture land. There is a letter from the minister to Mr. McPhee dated December 20, 1926. It reads:
I have received your letter of the 15th instant, with reference to the desire of Mr. Norman McKay, of Verigin, Saskatchewan, to purchase a portion of section 26-32-32, W. 1 M.
The department, I may say, was not aware that Mr. McKay had made application to purchase these three quarters, as Commissioner Graham some time ago recommended the with-
Supply-Interior-Indians

drawal of this section from sale on the ground that the Indians required the land for pasturage purposes. Mr. McKay's application therefore did not reach the department. For the reason stated, this section is, of course, not at present listed for sale, but I have instructed the officials to request Commissioner Graham to report in the matter, and to state whether in his opinion the land is still required for Indian use. I shall be very glad to write you further in the matter in due course.
Then there is a letter, which I will not delay the house reading, from the assistant deputy and secretary to Mr, Graham at Regina, asking for a further report. Next is a letter dated January 7, 1927, addressed to George W. McPhee, Esq., M.P., Yorkton, Saskatchewan. This reads:
With reference to my letter to you of the 20th ultimo, relative to the desire of Mr. Norman McKay, of Verigin, Saskatchewan, to purchase a portion of section 26-32-32, W. 1 M., I enclose copy of a report submitted by Commissioner Graham, of Regina.
You will observe that in the opinion ^of the Commissioner, this particular parcel o! land is required by the Indians for pasturage and hay purposes.
Then there is a letter addressed to the Department of Dominion Lands from Pelly, Saskatchewan, dated May 14, 1927:
I understand that the above section of land has been held by the Indian department and used by the Indians south of Pelly for pasture land; and that recently this section has been turned back to the department and is to be sold.
If this is correct when and how is it to be sold? Will it be by public auction or private sale? A party spoke to me to-day who wishes to bid on this land and I will be glad to hear from you as to how and when it is to be disposed of.
This letter is signed J. M. Telford, who is a barrister dealing in real estate in Pelly.
Next is a letter dated June 8, 1927, to J. M. Telford of Pelly, Saskatchewan:
Replying to your letter of the 14th ultimo, in connection with the above land, I may say this section is still being reserved for the use of the Indians for pasturage and hay purposes. In the event of the land being thrown open for sale, you will be advised.
This is signed J. C. Caldwell, in charge of the lands and timber branch. I direct particular attention to the last sentence. I submit that when a responsible officer of the department writes a letter of that kind to someone in the country it should be taken seriously and there should be someone in the department who feels in honour bound to carry out the obligation undertaken. Yet this promise was deliberately disregarded. The land w'as sold at private sale for at least not more than half of what some of the farmers, with whom Mr. Telford was in communication, had offered to pay.
IMr. Campbell.]
There are many other letters dealing with the same matter, but I do not wish to delay the house reading them. There is in the file a letter dated August 19, 1927, to Mr. Fred J. Malakoff, signed J. C. Caldwell, informing him that the land at that time was not available for sale. On November 3, 1927, a letter was written to E. A. W. R. McKenzie, Jr. Indian agent, by J. C. Caldwell, as follows:
Will you kindly advise the department, at your earliest convenience, if section 26, township 32, range 32, Wl-M, is still required for the use of the Indians for pasturage and hay purposes.
Here I want to draw the attention of the minister to this fact: On November 23 there was a letter from Kamsack, Saskatchewan, to the secretary of the Department of Indian Affairs, Ottawa, as follows:
Replying to your letter No. 68970-4 of the 3rd inst, regarding section 26, township 32, Range 32, W.P.M. I beg to advise that this is the only pasture that the Keeseekoose band have for their cattle and is still required for pasturage and hay purposes.
Your obedient servant,
(Sgd.) E. W. R. McKenzie,
Indian Agent.
To my mind this is the worst offence of which the department is guilty. Here you find the Indian agent, a man on whose recommendations they must depend, informing the department that this was the only pasturage land available for this Indian band, yet in spite of this the department deliberately disregarded the obligatipn entered into with Mr. Telford and disregarded as well representations of the Indian agent, all in the interests of one man who desired to secure this land for much less than its actual worth.
Then there is a letter under date of November 30, 1927, addressed to the hon. member for Yorkton, in which the official takes the stand that the land is not for sale. Some other correspondence follows, with which I need not weary the committee, but in this correspondence it is suggested to Mr. McPhee by the departmental officials that he might discuss this matter with Mr. Graham. The letters which passed between Mr. McPhee and Mr. Graham are not in the file, and one can only surmise what actually happened, but I find a letter from Regina under date of April 23, 1928, addressed to the secretary of the Department of Indian Affairs, as follows:
In reply to departmental letter No. 68,970-4. of the 11th instant, I have to say that I am of the opinion that section 26, T. 32, R. 32 west of the first meridian could now be disposed of without adversely effecting the interests of the Keeseekoose band.
Your obediant servant,
(Sgd.) W. M. Graham,
Indian Commissioner.

Supply

Interior-Indians
What caused Mr. Graham to change his mind between the time he wrote the original letter and this later date is hard for one to understand. The other letters are not material to the point I wish to discuss; there was considerable correspondence between the village of Pelly and the department with regard to this roadway through the land to their recreation grounds on the shore of the lake.


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: Will it
shorten the discussion if I say to my hon. friend now that any promise which has been made by the department with respect to that road will be carried out? I judge from my hon. friend's statement that the department committed itself to a road; the road was surveyed and in the meantime the sale took place, and now the village is being asked to pay for that road. On behalf of the department I will say to my hon. friend that I will see to it that the promises contained in the correspondence are carried out by the department.


Milton Neil Campbell: I am glad to have that statement from the minister; it will shorten the discussion very considerably. In the meantime, however, there has been a long delay and the village not only had to settle with the department according to the original agreement but now they are obliged to settle with the new purchaser, and it has cost them considerably more than it should.


Charles A. Stewart: The correspondence must indicate that the road was to be granted before the survey took place; I suppose that is the fact. I want to make it quite clear that however the department obligated itself with regard to that road, that obligation will be carried out.


Milton Neil Campbell: I appreciate that, and
I am only sorry the minister could not carry out the other promises of his department.


Charles A. Stewart: I am not
dealing with that at the moment; I thought I could shorten the discussion in this way.


Milton Neil Campbell: It will shorten the discussion very materially, because there are about a dozen letters it will not be necessary to read. However, there is one letter I should like to read, written from the village of Pelly to the Department of Indian Affairs, Ottawa, under date of May 9, 1929:
It seems that we are never going to get cleared up in tips matter, and I feel that most of the difficulty is due to the action of your department. You instructed us to go ahead and have the survey made for the road across section 26, then you disposed of the land without
reservation of this road and consequently threw us in considerable trouble and expense. When a committee of people are endeavouring to act in the public interest in obtaining facilities for a summer resort, and doing the work entirely gratis, at considerable trouble to themselves and also some expense, we feel that we should be assisted instead of hindered by a department of the Dominion government. If you will look up your file in connection with the sale of section 26-32-32-Wlst. you will see that I made enquiry about it and you informed me that it was being used by the Indian people for pasture and it was not for sale, but when it was to be offered for sale I would receive notification about it. The next thing I heard it was sold to MacKay of Verigin. This does not seem a very fair deal either.
We were proceeding to take expropriation steps in the matter of this road, then came a letter from the Department of Highways informing us that your department had written asking for the ten dollars per acre and that you would issue the transfer for this road. We stopped the expropriation proceedings and sent in the $10 per acre. Now after three or four months we get word from the Department of Highways that you have the money and that we are still to reckon with MacKay for his equity. I think a situation like this absurd and that your department has certainly been very unfair. Here it is spring again and we are still held up in the use of this road. It is very discouraging and I certainly think your department should take some steps to assist us out of the difficulty that you have got us into. Kindly let us know the price paid for this property by MacKay, so that we may have some idea of what he may be entitled to over and above the $10 per acre. Trusting you may be able to get this matter straightened out.
Yours truly,
(Sgd.) J. M. Telford.


Charles A. Stewart: I shall make my answer as brief as possible; I will not need to deal with the question of the road, since I have already answered my hon. friend on that point. First let me say that this dispute with regard to the road was first brought to my attention by my hon. friend; evidently the negotiations have been carried on in the department. I just want to reassure him that whatever the department agreed with the village of Pelly to do will be carried out, regardless of the fact that the sale has taken place.
With regard to the sale itself, there have been one or two instances of this kind recently; there is one pending now, and I have decided that for the future the same system which prevails in the sale of Dominion lands will prevail in these cases, that is, by public auction after being advertised for a considerable period. I am bound to say that the statements made by my hon. friend and the letters he has read with regard to the situation up to 1926 are correct. I remember the circumstances very well, but from 1926 on I had not heard of the matter until my hon.
Supply-Interior-Indians

friend raised the question the other day. I look upon Mr. Caldwell as being one of our most efficient officers, and I look upon Mr. Graham as a man who has always tried to protect the interests of the Indians. These two gentlemen are the ones who handled this sale, and I am not seeking to escape any responsibility when I say that the sale had taken place without my knowledge; I did not know that a sale had been consummated until the other day. They had full authority to conduct that sale, but I am putting into effect a regulation that no sale of land shall take place hereafter until it has been publicly advertised and that it shall be sold at public auction. That will avoid these little charges being brought that more could have been obtained for the land. Upon looking into the file, I found that Mr. Graham decided, as he is in a position to decide, being the Indian commissioner for the three prairie provinces, that this land was not required and could be offered for sale. He put an upset price upon it and the land was sold at that price. If I talked all day I could not say any more than that, but I want my hon. friend to understand that dn the future there will be no Indian lands sold unless they are publicly advertised. If my hon. friend has any suspicion as to political interference by these officers, I would say that Mr. Caldwell was secretary 'to the Hon. Arthur Meighen, and I think Mr. Graham's politics are well known. I have not inquired of either one of them as to their politics, and I am satisfied that these men used their best judgment. If they went wrong in this particular case, then they erred in their judgment, but I am inclined to think that when my hon. friend looks into the matter very carefully he will find that this was consummated in the interests of the Indian department. The fact that others were not notified

I am not offering any excuse because I did not know that that occurred and I cannot discover from the file that a promise was made to the individual mentioned by my hion. friend-is regrettable, but in the future the land will be advertised in the locality in which it is to be sold and the sale will be carried on by an auctioneer.


Milton Neil Campbell: There is on my part
more than a suspicion of political interference; I think it amounts almost to a certainty. The activities of the hon. member for Yorkton (Mr. McPhee) are so obvious that one can draw no other conclusion. I am not attaching any particular blame to these officials, and I do not think that Mr. Caldwell's politics enters into the matter at all.

These men are civil servants and have no particular politics, but I do think that political pressure was brought to bear upon them. I had a great deal of business to do with Mr. Caldwell and I have always found him ready to carry out his word, but in this case the fact that he did fail to carry out an obligation which he entered into with these settlers in the Pelly district seems to me to be evidence of political interference. I am very glad indeed to have the assurance of the minister as to the public advertising of these lands, and I am sorry that he had not put this policy into effect a year or two ago, because in that case it would not have been necessary for me to take up so much time of the committee during the dying hours of the session in debating this matter. It would not have caused the trouble and inconvenience to the settlers in the Pelly district, as well as arousing their suspicion of political interference.


Mr. McPHEE:: I want to satisfy the mind of my hon. friend that there was no political interference in this case at all. The negotiations for the purchase of this land were carried on in a fair, square and aboveboard manner, and there was no personal intervention except by correspondence. I think the following quotation from Pope's Essay on Man expresses pretty well the attitude of mind of the hon. gentleman:
All seems infected that the infected spy,
As all looks yellow to the jaundiced eye.


Milton Neil Campbell: I	have no desire to
keep this argument going, but I would like to point out that the very fact that the hon. member for Yorkton was so anxious is evidence of political interference. There was nothing to prevent these other gentlemen from corresponding direct with the department. Mr. Telford is a lawyer and real estate man in the village of Pelly, and he carried on his correspondence direct with the department.


Mr. BRADETTE:: Is an amount being
included in this vote to assist the hospital at Cochrane?
Mr. STEWART' (Edmonton):	There is
an amount provided for a wing for the hospital.


Joseph-Arthur Bradette: Is that an addition to
the present wing?


Charles A. Stewart: An addition.


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: I would like to ask
the minister for some information with regard to the 815,000 to provide farm working outfits for graduates of Indian schools.

Supply-Interior


Charles A. Stewart: When these boys and girls are graduated from the schools the church authorities encourage them to marry and settle down. We have formulated the policy of building a small house, buying a team of horses, a plough, and then, if possible, having a group of them get together and buy a binder which can be used jointly, and the vote is required for that purpose. This means of acquiring farm working outfits obviates a very vicious practice, that of the Indians buying goods on credit.


Alfred Speakman: I have no criticism to make of the vote; I simply wanted information.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the expenses connected with Canadian national parks, historic sites, care of indigents in the parks, etc.-further amount required, including an amount to reimburse the provincial Government for the salary of police magistrate at Waterton Lakes Park, $34,698.
Costs of litigation and legal expenses-further amount required, $15,000.
Amount required to pay salaries and expenses connected with seed grain and relief collections, including half of expenses of seed grain and relief adjustment board-further amount required, $2,400.
To provide for expenses connected with the Supervisory Mining Engineer's Office due chiefly to the recent mining activities in northern Manitoba and northern Saskatchewan-further amount required, $27,500.
To provide for the payment to the province of Saskatchewan of one-half of the amount disbursed by that province for relief to needy settlers, $47,969.23.
To provide for surveys required in the Roseau river watershed in connection with reference re this matter made by the governments of Canada and the United States to the International Joint Commission, $15,000.
To provide for the expenses incurred under the Lake of the Woods Control Board Act, 1921, and under the agreement between the Dominion, Ontario and Manitoba, confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928, for the construction of a dam at the outlet of Lac Seul and its operation by the Lake of the Woods Control Board and for the remuneration, at the rate of $1,000 each per annum, of Messrs. J. T. Johnston and K. M. Cameron, Dominion members of such board, the money expended to be reimbursed to the Dominion by the licensees of developed power sites on the Winnipeg river in Manitoba (revote), $144,091.10.
To provide for the expenses connected with Canadian national parks, historic sites, etc.- furtjier amount required to provide for the purchase of the Southwold Indian earthworks site in the county of Elgin, $2,500.-Total, $289,158.33.
George Halsey Perley: Could the minister give the committee some information with regard to the item of $47,969.23, to provide for the payment to the province of Saskatchewan of one-half of the amount disbursed by that province for relief to needy settlers?


Charles A. Stewart: This is a three-cornered obligation between the municipalities, the provinces, and the Dominion government, for relief in the purchase of seed grain. These amounts are required when the municipal authorities are unable to collect any portion of the advances which have been made. From time to time we are served by the provincial government with notice respecting accrued amounts which they are unable to collect, and they ask us to pay our share.


George Halsey Perley: Is that policy carried out in the other provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. In
Alberta matters are being settled very largely by a board.


Mr. PARENT:: I desire to commend the minister for publishing J. B. Mandley's report of 1928. This is a very excellent report, but I would like to urge upon the minister the publication in a short time of this report in a more complete form. My information goes to show that titanium ores can be used to-day as a pigment for paint. Tests have been made in European countries demonstrating the feasibility of their use for this purpose. I do not know that the Department of Mines has taken up the question of this particular use of these ores. Would it be at all possible, between now and next session, to have an engineer examine into this matter further with a view to ascertaining whether there is sufficient public interest to justify any expenditure in connection with such an investigation?


Charles A. Stewart: We are
pursuing that investigation.


Mr. GARDINER:: I should like to ask
the minister a question with regard to this amount of $47,000, to provide for the payment to the province of Saskatchewan of one-half of the amount disbursed by that province for the relief to needy settlers. Has that recently been disbursed?


Charles A. Stewart: The provinces carry the losses. This is just the same as in Alberta. When it is ascertained that the amounts cannot be recovered, we divide the loss. We are simply carrying out the old agreement that was made.


Robert Gardiner: This is the old agreement. I thought it was to cover recent disbursements?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Post Office
[Stage Direction]
Miscellaneous-grant to the Western Stock Growers, $5,000.
Mr. FRASER:: Who are the Western
Stock Growers? What is this amount required for?


Charles A. Stewart: It is a very-active association with headquarters at Calgary, and is largely composed of ranchers; it does not take in the farmers. We have from time to time given them grants to assist them in their work.


John Anderson Fraser: Is the minister sure that
he has the name correct?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


John Anderson Fraser: Is it not the Western
Stock Breeders' Association?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


John Anderson Fraser: I know an association
called the Western Stock Breeders. Is this the same one?


Charles A. Stewart: No. This
association is named oorrectly. It covers all of southern Alberta and part of southern Saskatchewan. Ranchers constitute 90 per cent of it.


John Anderson Fraser: Does it include in its
membership any of the British Columbia stock growers?


Charles A. Stewart: I am not
sure; I cannot say definitely.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Post Office-Outside service-to compensate the widow of the late Thomas Jackson who was fatally wounded by bandits following the robbery of the Toronto and Fort William railway post office in train No. 4 near Parry Sound, Ontario, on August 18, 1928, $1,000.
To provide for payment of allowances from April 1, 1929, to railway mail clerks in charge of railway post offices, in accordance with provisions of order in council, P.C. 394-487, dated March 21, 1929, $160,000.
To provide for the readjustment of the salaries of certain postal employees in western Canada who were dismissed in 1919 and subsequently reemployed, to give them payment as from the date of their reemployment for services actually performed at the rates of remuneration paid to other employees for similar service, $100,000.-Total, $261,000.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: I wish to draw the attention of the Postmaster General to the very minute amount of $1,000 to compensate the widow of the late Thomas Jackson who was fatally wounded by bandits following the robbery of the Toronto and Fort William railway post office in train No. 4, near Parry Sound, Ontario, in August, 1928. Is that per annum or is it just a total amount?


Mr. VENIOT:: That is the total amount.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: It is a minute amount for a woman who lost her husband who was in the service when he was killed1 by a bandit. Just a few moments ago, under vote 373, we gave $1,200 to a man who lost an eye, and under vote 374 we gave $1,350 to a man who had sprained his knee. When we come to a man who lost his life, we give the widow $1,000 and that is all. I have no power to move to amend to make the amount $2,000, or I would do so. But I would be satisfied if it were ah annuity for $1,000. Surely such discrepancies as these should not occur.


Peter John Veniot: This was not an employee
of the government. The person unfortunately killed under these circumstances was not, at the time he was killed, engaged in protecting government property. The bandits, after holding up the train and stealing from it, stole an automobile in which they placed the property taken from the train. While escaping, they ditched the automobile close to a farm house. One of the bandits went to the farm house to get a team to haul the automobile out of the ditch. During the progress of the work of hauling the automobile out of the ditch, the man who got killed had gone with his son to help the bandits, not knowing that .they were such.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Was he killed accidentally?


Peter John Veniot: I will explain. During the progress of hauling the automobile out of the ditch, those who owned the car and who had been following it up, came along. Two of the bandits escaped and one remained in the automobile. Shots were exchanged between those who owned the automobile and the two bandits who were hiding in the woods, and in the shooting this man was killed. The Ontario government, according to reports that I received, compensated the two brothers who owned the automobile, and the Canadian Pacific also gave them small amounts. When the matter was brought to my attention, in view of the fact that this farmer had been killed under such iciroumstanees and that others who had been wounded, 'had been paid small amounts ranging from $250 to $300, I felt that we should at least recognize the services rendered by the man who lost his life and I recommended an amount of $1,000.


George Halsey Perley: Why is it
necessary to insert this item of $100,000 to provide for the readjustment of the salaries of certain postal employees in western Canada? Does the act not provide for that?

Supply-Governor General's Warrants


Peter John Veniot: While this is statutory and the amount is fixed as an estimate of what it may cost, I consulted with the legal authorities and I was advised that the amount had to be inserted in the estimates and voted, because the statute reads:	"Not to exceed


George Halsey Perley: This could not be
in any way considered a second $100,000?


Peter John Veniot: No.


George Halsey Perley: We seem to be
voting $100,000 in the act and another $100,000 in this estimate. To my lay mind I could not understand how they could tbe one and the same.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I raised the
same question at the time, and I was informed by the Department of Justice that the amount had to be voted.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Governor general's warrants, 1928-29-payment of expenses, Manitoba natural resources inquiry (governor general's warrant of August 1, 1928), $15,000.
Robert Gardiner: What is the total cost
of the Manitoba natural resources commission?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think it would be possible to give that information at the present time. The accounts are not all in as yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Governor general's warrants, 1928-29-to cover cost of testing cows and destroying such as are diseased (governor general's warrant of October 18, 1928), $100,000.
George Halsey Perley: Why is it
necessary to have a governor general's warrant for this purpose? I understand it has always been the policy of the department and the government to cover the cost of testing cows and destroying such as are diseased. Surely there must be an item in the estimates for the purpose. Why was it necessary so early after the session last year to have another amount provided b}7 governor general's warrant?


Mr. ROBB:: The question raised by my
hon. friend is on a parallel with the criticism made of the Minister of Agriculture the other night in connection with delay in the payment of compensation for cattle and swine destroyed under the act. It is only fair to the Minister of Agriculture to say that when he was preparing his estimates for last year, the treasury board reduced the estimate that he put in. In August or September the
Department of Agriculture represented to the treasury board that they wanted an additional $200,000 to meet compensation payments owing to an epidemic. AVe compromised by giving them $100,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil Service Commission-Contingencies - further amount required, including $1,500. to meet the cost of entertaining delegates to the National Assembly of Civil Service Commissions of the United States and Canada, which will he held in Ottawa in September, 1929, $16,500.
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: I am not
going to delay the committee at all, but I wish at this stage simply to make a suggestion to the government. It arises out of the discussion that took place on the civil service and civil service matters this year, when we discovered that an apparent injustice is being worked on many people who apply for position and pass an examination. While the act provides for a reasonable probationary period, under a ruling of the Justice department the deputy ministers and the ministers have the power of dismissing without a fair trial the person appointed.


Peter John Veniot: Not dismissing.


Edward Joseph Garland: Of refusing to accept them; it is the same thing exactly All I am going to do at this stage is to ask the minister in charge to consider favourably the introduction next session of an amendment to the Civil Service Act which would provide for a fair trial before dismissal, in order that this injustice may not occur again. I went to the trouble of drafting an amendment which I now put on Hansard for the minister's guidance. Section 24 would be amended to read as follows:
24. The deputy head may, at any time before tho expiration of six months, reject any person assigned or appointed to any position under his control or direction, provided such person has been given a fair trial therein, or he may
extend the period of probation within which such
person may be rejected for another six months, and the cause of rejection, or the reason for extending the period of probation, shall be reported by the deputy head to the commission. Provided further that, the commission may. at any time before the expiration of six months.. cancel the appointment of any person who has; been assigned or appointed, if it be discovered that such appointment was made without a full ' knowledge of the essential facts, or under circumstances which involved misrepresentation*
I put in the proviso in order to protect against the possibility of misrepresentation by the applicant, or the possibility of facts arising which would justify dismissal; for example, it mdght be discovered after appointment that the appointee had a criminal

3760	COMMONS
Supply-Civil Service Commission
record. I do not wish to press the matter at this stage, but I am going to ask the minister to take into his favourable consideration the introduction of an amendment to meet certain of the objections that were raised this year.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Does the hon. member suggest that if a man had a criminal record he would not give him a second chance?


Edward Joseph Garland: No, I would not go that far.


Mr. RINFRET:: I promise my hon. friend the very best consideration of his amendment.


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: I would call the attention of the government to the very severe indictment of some of the departments as found in the unanimous report of the three civil service commissioners. I had proposed to deal with this at some length, but I shall reserve the right to take it up next session. I hope that amending legislation will be brought down, and that in the meantime conditions will be very much improved.


George Halsey Perley: It was brought out plainly in the house this session that when returns from the Civil Service Commission are ordered by t'he house the officers of the commission decide what papers shall be sent down to the House of Commons. My own feeling is that that is entirely improper. I do not propose to discuss it here, but next session I am hoping that the matter will be brought up so that we may be sure that when the House of Commons passes an order for the return of certain papers from the Civil Service Commission, those papers will be brought down.


Edward Joseph Garland: I wish very strongly to support the position taken by the hon. member for Argenteuil and to point out specifically that in the returns made by the Civil Service Commission this year with respect to the Post Office Department there was held back from the file in almost every case the form which I hold in my hand, and which is essential to a full and proper understanding of the cases. This form is C.S.C, 240 -Application for the position of postmaster. From most of the files that was withhold. The other form which should be included is C.S.C. 71-the report on applicants for a postmastership. Without these two forms a clear understanding of the ease is obviously impossible, and I think provision should be made that in the future, irrespective of what may be the opinion of one or two commissioners, these public documents should be at-

tached. I understand that in this particular case the chairman of the commission was quite willing and urged that the documents in question be included in every file, but the other two commissioners refused to approve the suggestion. That should not be the case.


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I will take the matter up with the Civil Service Commission.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
House of Commons-To provide for the full sessional indemnity to members of the House of Commons-days lost through absence caused by illness, official public business, or on account of death during the present session-notwithstanding anything to the contrary in chapter T47 of the revised statutes. 1927. an act respecting the Senate and House of Commons, or any amendments thereto. Payments to be made as the treasury board may direct, $40,000.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: What is the meaning of the phrase "official public business"? Does that mean public business in connection with their work in the House of Commons, or public business that they may have in the cities where they reside?


James Alexander Robb: It is a phrase that has been used for many years in the estimates. Generally speaking, it applies to ministers who may be absent from the country on public duty. The ministers in the administration of their departments may be absent from Ottawa.


Edward Joseph Garland: Does it include such public business as attending elections in other parts of Canada?


James Alexander Robb: So far as this government is
concerned that is not the case.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: A number of members, I do not wish to mention any specifically, absent themselves from this house on the plea, I suppose, that they have personal business at home. That is what I was told by one member. He said he had paired with another member. I said, "Well, you are going to support blindly what your party proposes, and the other member will oppose blindly, for that is the effect of your pair." They draw their full indemnity.


James Alexander Robb: They do not come under
this.


Robert Gardiner: Are there many cases
where members of the House of Commons and the Senate do not draw the full indemnity?


James Alexander Robb: I must refer my hon. friend
to the Auditor General's report.


Robert James Manion: They all take the oath.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-House of Commons
Legislation-general-printing, printing paper and binding, $60,000.
(B) Authorized by Statute Senate
Salary of Speaker, $6,000.
Indemnity to senators, $384,000.
Transportation expenses of Senators, $5,000- total $305,000.
House of Commons
Salary of Speaker, $6,000.
Salary of the Deputy Speaker, $4,000.
Indemnity to members, including additional indemnity to Leader of Opposition. $990,000. Travelling allowances, $14,000-total, $1,014,000.
Summary
Senate, $169,460.
House of Commons, $662,021.10.
Library of Parliament, $79,425.
General, $60,000.
To be voted, $970,906.10.	,
Authorized by statute, $1,409,000 total, $2,379,006.10.
Mr. KENNEDY:: What has been, done in regard to the salaries of members' stenographers?
Mr. SPEAKER Subject to the decision of the Board of Internal Economy, and at the request of the chief of the stenographic branch, I have decided to increase the salaries of the stenographers by one dollar per day. I may say that I have received a vote of thanks from the staff. They are all satisfied.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is it retroactive?


Mr. SPEAKER:: It starts from April 1.


Robert Gardiner: Does the increase apply, for instance, to your own secretary, to my secretary and to .the secretaries of the whips?


Hewitt Bostock: What salary does the
hon. gentleman's secretary get?


Robert Gardiner: Five dollars a day.


Hewitt Bostock: That is the maximum.


Robert Gardiner: Then the secretarystenographers who have more responsibility than the stenographers are not getting any increase. Now all the stenographers will be on the same salary basis.


Hewitt Bostock: If I go beyond the established minimum and maximum it creates a precedent which would be invoked in other branches. As I have said, the staff is satisfied. However, I will look into the matter.


Robert Gardiner: I would impress upon
the Speaker this point, that a secretary such as mine has more important duties to discharge than the ordinary stenographer's.


An hon. MEMBER:: Not a particle.


Hewitt Bostock: I will look into the
matter.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I understand a vast improvement has taken place because of the action of the Speaker and the Board of Internal Economy, but everything is not yet satisfactory. For instance, the room is too small; the noise caused by a number of typewriters in operation at the same time is distracting; many of the typewriting machines ought to be scrapped.


Mr. SPOTTON:: Hear, hear.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: A little over a year ago the senate stenographers got an increase up to $5 a day as a maximum, retroactive to the beginning of the last session. I wish to quote from a report of the committee of internal economy, sessional paper No. 4 of 1928, page .5:
Whereas the staff was twice reorganized but never classified since the year 1921-
This is dealing with another matter, but I wish to quote the argument:
-while certain senate officers have recently been given higher salaries than similar House of Commons' officers, although the business of tile lower house in consequence of its long sittings is far more exacting than that of the senate, and regard should be had of this fact in appointing employees and fixing their salaries.


Hewitt Bostock: That has been done by
the senate itself. I have consulted the chief of the stenographic branch, Mr. Smith, who knows everyone of our stenographers downstairs, and he says they are perfectly satisfied. There are some other discrepancies as between the senate and the House of Commons yet to be adjusted. For instance, the accountant of the House of Commons, although he is far busier than the accountant of the senate, yet ranks lower in salary. Some day there miust be an adjustment made as regards the officers of the two houses.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: This session the Prime
Minister made a good deal of the point that the government should be a model employer. As the senate and the House of Commons staffs are practically one organization, it seems to me ridiculous that the officials of the House of Commons do not get the same pay for the same kind of work as their fellows in the senate.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the further payment of claims for compensation for loss sustained by the civil population of Canada during the late war, interest thereon and cost of administration, $4,200,000.
Supply-Miscellaneous
John Anderson Fraser: When will those cheques
go out?


James Alexander Robb: Not until they are approved
by the governor in council at least.


John Anderson Fraser: How long will it be before
the cheques are mailed?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: As soon as the session is
over and this is assented to. W>e have made preparations and some erf the cheques have been already written, and we expect that beifore the end of two or three weeks at least most of the claimants will have been reached.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: All -the supply has now been voted with the exception of a few items relating to agriculture. I do not know whether faon. members would care to continue in session now or resume possibly at two o'clock; if we were to do so we might make certain of having prorogation at five. If the committee is agreeable I will move that we continue sitting now.


George Halsey Perley: We might pass
all the items except No. 45 in the main estimates.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I do not think it is fair to go on now. Members interested in certain items may have gone, thinking the house would rise at one.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It takes a little time to arrange for prorogation; His Excellency has to be advised in time to attend. Would it be taking too much for granted if I were to advise His Excellency that prorogation might conveniently take place at five o'clock, assuming that we resume at three?


Robert Gardiner: How many items are
left?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The only
items are No. 45 in the main estimates, and in the supplementaries 361-2-3-4-5.


Robert James Manion: We might pass them all
now and reserve discussion under the main item.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: There is one which I
wish to discuss.


John Anderson Fraser: Has item 1 been passed
yet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


John Anderson Fraser: When was it passed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Some days ago.


John Anderson Fraser: It stood over at my request; I had a question to ask the Minister of Finance.


James Alexander Robb: It must have been passed in
the absence of my hon. friend; it was a question of bonding. The hon. member can bring it up again.	.
Progress reported.
Resolutions read the first and second time and concurred in.



PRIVATE BILLS


James Alexander Robb: I have been requested to make a motion for the remission of certain amounts paid in relation to legislation that did not go through, but I do not feel that I can make that motion in view of the ruling you gave, Mr. Speaker, the other day.


Hewitt Bostock: I may inform the house
that several members have asked for the remission of fees in connection with bills which have not been proceeded with. It is essentially contrary to section 35 of the Consolidated Revenue Act, which stipulates that any fees received by the officers of the house shall be deposited at the bank, when they become the property of the Receiver General of Canada. To remit such fees would require an estimate from the Minister of Finance.
Section 54 of the British North America Act is quite specific in this regard; no expenditure can be made unless it is preceded by a message of approval from His Excellency. This is quite clear under the Consolidated Revenue Act as well as under the British North America Act and therefore the request is absolutely untenable and cannot be entertained.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If hon. members would agree, I would move that the intermission to-day shall terminate at two-thirty o'clock. That would give us an extra half hour as leeway in arranging for prorogation at 5 o'clock.


George Halsey Perley: It seems a very
unfair motion.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Very well, I
will drop it immediately.


George Halsey Perley: Some members
have gone away-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I was merely
seeking to accommodate the house; that is all.

Supply-Agriculture

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
Progress reported.



MESSAGE FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL'S SECRETARY


Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to
inform the house that I have received the following message:
Ottawa, June 14, 1929.
Sir:
X have the honour to inform you that His Excellency the Governor General will proceed to the Senate chamber to-day at 5 p.m., for the purpose of proroguing the present session of parliament.
I have the honour to be,
Sir,
Your obedient servant,
E. C. Mieville,
Secretary to the Governor General.
,SUPPLY



DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Health of animals, administration of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act and Meat and Canned Foods Act, and necessary buildings, $2,450,000.
Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I stated that I wanted
a little information with regard to item 363, which provides. a grant of S100,000 to the executive committee of the World's Grain Congress. I would like the minister to make a short statement with regard to this item, and I particularly want to know whether this $100,000 is the full amount the Dominion government will contribute, and also whether or not a statement will be rendered showing the details of the expenditure, the salaries and so on, or whether this is a straight grant.


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: I asked my deputy to prepare a short statement giving a synopsis of the situation, and this synopsis is before me now. This grain show and congress to be held in Regina in 1932 is to be international in character, and the governments of all possible competing countries are being communicated with. The show is to be held on the Regina exhibition grounds, and the exhibition board there is planning to erect quite extensive buildings to accommodate the
show. The manager of that exhibition is very closely identified with the preparations, as are also the president and directors, who are named in a little pamphlet which is before me; I can give the names if desired. The different ministers of agriculture throughout Canada are included also.
Contributions toward prize money are being sought from the Dominion government and from many companies and associations interested in one way or another in grain; the railway companies might be particularly mentioned in this connection. It is anticipated that very generous prizes will be offered for wheat of different varieties and the coarse grains as well as for grass and clover seed. A tentative prize list has been worked out and much interest is being displayed in the matter by governments and by farmers, particularly those on the prairies.
I may say that this movement was started by a number of leading farmers and others [DOT] in the province of Saskatchewan with the intention of having it under provincial auspices. After they had worked along those lines for a year or so they came to the conclusion that diplomatic connections with other countries would not be very easily obtained through provincial sources, so a large deputation came to Ottawa and asked that the Dominion government take it over. My department now has charge of the affair, as we had charge of the World's Poultry Congress two years ago. All the preliminaries have been engaged in and in Toronto last November a large meeting was held of all those interested in this movement for the purpose of arranging a tentative prize list. Those interested in this matter include all ministers of agriculture and prominent men interested in the agricultural life of the country; there are subcommittees, finance committees and1 all the other requisites in connection with a large enterprise of this nature.
Replying to the second part of my hon. friend's question as to whether any further assistance will be sought, I imagine that it will, according to this memorandum. One of the purposes for which this vote is asked is that the officers may go about the country from place to place in order to canvass for subscriptions for this prize list, and that will cost quite a bit of money. Among others I anticipate that all governments will be given an opportunity to contribute. I might also point out that while some are disposed to make the prize list and the exhibition proper the great feature of the show, that is not in the minds of those who are initiating this great movement. They have recognized that

Supply-Agriculture

during the last few years, particularly since the war, the quality of Canada's wheat has been depreciating, and the primary Object of this great enterprise is to improve the quality of our wheat, partly through an exhibition, at which all competitors will be inspired to attempt to excel each other, and partly through papers and addresses on the various diseases to which the cereal world is subject, so the educational value of such a show will be very great.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: It seems to me that we are going to pay a big price for this show, and while the instructional value of the addresses and papers may amount to something it seems to me that $100,000 or possibly $200,000 spent in scientific work would go much further in providing a way to overcome diseases such as rust and smut. I have a great deal of doubt as to the value of this vote, but I do not intend to oppose it in the meantime. However, I would like to know what control may be exercised, as far as this house is concerned, with regard to the expenditure. Are we absolutely through when this money is expendted, or will there be a report made to this department giving all the details?


William Richard Motherwell: This department
will be well represented on the various boards, and I happen to be the chairman. Among other things which will be taken up at the various conferences-because there will be some six or eight sections running concurrently in order that all the ground may be covered in a reasonable time-are soils, physics, chemistry, bacteriological cultural methods, weeds, experimental methods of seed production and registration, farm management, fertilizers, eradication or control of insect pests, agricultural machinery, harvesting, markets, grading, merchandising, storage and transportation requirements, and also milling and baking tests. It is a very comprehensive program indeed.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Are there any of these
questions on which we have not pretty full information at present?


William Richard Motherwell: I have never found an occasion of this nature, which brings together all the experts of the wheat growing world, which has not been of very great value indeed. It has been my privilege from time to time to attend a number of international conferences both in the United States and Canada, and I have obtained a great deal of

very valuable information from them. I think it is generally conceded that we should use all the forces available t-o put our wheat once more in its old position.


Edward Joseph Garland: As an advertising project I think that this has merit; I think it will be a fine way of attracting the attention of the world to Canada and its possibilities, agricultural and otherwise. The educational work carried on by the Department of Agriculture has conveyed to those of us who are interested enough to study all the information which is known about this subject. Will a complete accounting be made of the expenditure under this vote?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: That will be made to parliament?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: It is more than a grant, then?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes. There will be a very close supervision kept of the expenditure because we are well represented upon the committee.


Edward Joseph Garland: A mere supervision of the expenditure is not enough; will the house be presented with a statement, properly audited?


William Richard Motherwell: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: What progress is being made with regard to the prevention of tuberculosis in cattle?


William Richard Motherwell: The matter of
tuberculosis eradication was taken up by the committee on bovine research which met in Ottawa last winter. Very extensive experiments were reported, both by the authorities in Alberta and by the various subcommittees throughout Canada which are cooperating in this work. Nothing was brought forth which would indicate that any additional light has been thrown upon the virtues of any superior system other than the one we are trying out at the present time, the B.C.G. This vaccine has received a good deal of publicity and it is admitted that a certain amount of immunity is imparted to the young animals through inoculation, but that immunity is only of comparatively short duration and has not proven to be 100 per cent perfect. Further research work has been undertaken, not only here, but practically in all the research stations in the world, including that of the League of Nations, in an endeavour to find out the actual virtues of the B.C.G. vaccine.

Supply-Agriculture
Until our scientists are able to discover a more effective method, we propose to continue along the line we are following. The last court of appeal to which the B.C.G. vaccine has been submitted is that of the League of Nations, but they have decided on further experimentation before giving any decision. I believe a six-year period of research has been decided upon before this vaccine can be recommended, and perhaps not then.


Robert Gardiner: What progress has
been made with the research work being carried on at Hull?


William Richard Motherwell: AVe have obtained
the least immunizing results from our work with B.C.G. at our Hull laboratory and the most immunizing results from the provincial laboratory in Alberta. I think the difference in results is due to the length of time the experimental animals were kept before being slaughtered and to a certain degree some difference in the virulency of the germ or tubercle bacilli.


Robert Gardiner: Is there any literature
available which would give those interested the results of these experiments?


William Richard Motherwell: There is the report of our own department and the report of the research council. We have received some reports from the League of Nations which are very interesting, and if we could pick out the most interesting parts and have them embodied in a small bulletin I think it would make very interesting reading.


Robert Gardiner: I would suggest that
the minister take into consideration the printing of this literature and its distribution to the members of the House of Commons.


William Richard Motherwell: I will.


Mr. LUCAS:: How many restricted areas
are there in Canada, and how many haVe been added during the past year?


William Richard Motherwell: There is the Fraser River valley, in British Columbia; Last Mountain area in Saskatchewan; Carman district in Manitoba; Prince Edward county in Ontario; the Beauharnois-Huntingdon in Quebec, which extends eastward to the Richelieu river and then further eastward to the St. Francis river; a small area in New Brunswick about ten miles out of Fredericton; the entire province of Prince Edward Island; the entire province of Nova Scotia, with the exception of Cape Breton. We intend to extend tlhis year the Carman area in Manitoba northward to lake Manitoba. The principal work to be engaged in this summer, however, 78594-2391
will be in the province of Ontario between the junction of the 'Ottawa and St. Lawrence rivers and ithe Rideau canal. That area will take in a little over ten constituencies and I think it will keep us fully occupied for the next year. Four constituencies will be added in the province of Quebec in order to connect up the area with eastern Ontario. We are trying to build up a beautiful Ottawa, and we should endeavour to build up an hygienic Ottawa as well.


William Thomas Lucas: What amount of compensation was paid last year?


Mr. BROWN:: I hope the minister will
keep in mind the extension of the common area southerly and southwesterly from its present boundary and taking in the municipalities of Pembina, Stanley and Rhineland. This would round out the common area by extending it to the international boundary. I think application has been made from at least two of these municipalities to be included in the area.


William Richard Motherwell: I understand that
it will be necessary to include but one municipality in order to reach the international boundary, and to include one on the east to reach the Red river; the area would extend to the international boundary on the south, the Red river on the east and the Assiniboia river on the north, which would make a very satisfactory area.


William Thomas Lucas: AVhat amount of compensation was paid last year?


William Richard Motherwell: For restricted areas, $867,132.


William Thomas Lucas: That is getting very close to a million dollars, is it not?


William Richard Motherwell: The other was the accredited herds and we have about thirty areas under what we call the municipal order; for instance, cities like Ottawa and Guelph are under the old municipal order of fifteen years ago. That and the accredited herds make up the balance between this sum and $1,000,000.


John Anderson Fraser: What is the status in
connection with the $146 to which I referred?


William Richard Motherwell: Might I ask my
hon. friend the result of the negotiations between himself and my deputy since this morning? He will recall that at the nice little conversation that took place in my office, I pointed out that I did not see how, with three authorities deciding in writing against his contention and in favour of mine, we could make any progress. So it was proposed
Supply-.4 griculture

that he and my deputy should endeavour, by going down to-morrow morning to the Civil Service Commission-I do not know what kind of weapons they are going to take with them-to get results.


John Anderson Fraser: I claim the decision made
by the Department of Justice and the Civil Service Commission was hardly fair to the man who was claiming the compensation. Am I to understand that if I am to make that point clear, the minister will pay the $146?


William Richard Motherwell: I would be glad to pay that amount and get rid of the whole question, but I do not see how I can do it. We have dozens and, indeed, hundreds of such claims, and if we pay a claim without justification, we open the door to innumerable others.


Mr. COOTE:: I should like to say a few
words to the minister in regard to the salaries -of the research men in his department. It is very hard for some of us to understand the policy of the Department of Agriculture in connection with the expenditure of money for different purposes. I think the minister is on record as saying that the research men in his department should be paid higher salaries than they are receiving at the present time. He will not deny that we have lost the services of several valuable men who have been engaged in research in connection with rust, simply because we did not pay them sufficient salaries. I thought a year ago that no doubt by this time the salaries of such men would have been readjusted, but no action has yet been taken. I was wondering whether the minister would be good enough to tell us why he is granting $100,000 towards the grain exposition which is to be held at Regina and has not yet succeeded in getting fitting salaries for men engaged in research work. I am credibly informed that we are going to lose some more of these men this year because the government has dilly-dallied with the question for so long. The government finally got a report from the Civil Service Commission, recommending an increase of salary to these men. The Minister of Finance, who last year would not give us any encouragement in regard to the matter, because, as he said, the Civil Service Commission had not reported, now assumes the attitude that he is going to have another commission inquire into the case again. Has the minister not been able to convince the cabinet that it is really necessary that these research men should be paid a little more, and would the minister say that in his opinion the expenditure of $100,000 for the grain exposition is more justifiable than paying these men increased

salaries? I am anxious to know the attitude of the minister. Does he think this advertising scheme is more important than the retaining of these research men in his department, .because I am satisfied-and the minister must be of the same opinion-that he is going to lose one or two valuable men if their salaries are not adjusted before another year passes by?


William Richard Motherwell: As my hon. friend
knows, we have had from the Civil Service Commission a report which has in turn been referred to a commission composed of Mr. Beatty, Doctor Murray and Sir George Gar-neau. While the matter is before that commission, I do not see how we can make any comments that would be germane to the question, except that I might say that I have never ceased endeavouring to have agriculture recognized as being on a parity -with other departments in the matter of salaries. I have always taken the ground that a technical man in agriculture is worth just as much to the country as a technical man in any other department. That was not recognized even by the Civil Service Commission, until about a year ago. The question has arisen:	What
constitutes a technical man? And the committee has that question before it.


George Gibson Coote: Opposition is often expressed to the proposal to pay the research men in the Department of Agriculture a little more money because it is said that the department is spending too much money now. I am not saying that such is the case; but if the cabinet are willing to spend only a certain amount in connection with the Department of Agriculture, it would be much better to spend this $100,000 in paying these research men higher salaries and to do without the grain exposition which is, after all, merely an advertising proposition.


William Richard Motherwell: Oh. no.


George Gibson Coote: While thev are advertising we may lose a man whose services might be of just as much value to the country as
those of Doctior Saunders, the man who propagated marquis wheat- and placed it on the market for the benefit of the farmers of Canada. The minister is pursuing a rather unwise policy in this regard.


William Richard Motherwell: There is no reason in the world why both these services should not be carried on and both these expenditures made. The situation would not be improved by abandoning the world exposition because, as I understand the question, it is one not of the money, but of deciding what constitutes technical men. That is what the

Supply-A griculture
37er
Beatty commission is working out now. My deputy reminds me that the other day he and others had the opportunity of being heard before the commission. I was not there, but I can imagine what kind of evidence my deputy would give and I understand that it was favourably received. Everything is being done that can be done in this regard. Long before I came here I was told that the staff were constantly on the job, endeavouring to get their technical men on an equality with others,


George Gibson Coote: If this commission should
decide that a number of men who are now engaged in what is called research work in connection with rust at Winnipeg, are technical men, is there any provision whereby the salaries of such men can be adjusted now without the necessity of waiting until parliament meets again?


William Richard Motherwell: Prior to a recent
ruling, we could get an adjustment by a new classification, but apparently such general advantage was taken of this that a ruling was made that any such classification would not take effect until the beginning of the next fiscal year.


Robert Gardiner: Could the minister
explain the reason why these men cannot secure increases when it seems to be so easy for the deputies to secure them?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend asked a question in regard to the proposal to grant increases to technical men. As he knows, a royal commission has been appointed and at the present time is meeting expressly for the purpose of advising the government what, in the opinion, of its members, should be paid to these professional and technical men in the government service. The government hopes to be governed in its decision by the report of that commission. The fact that it has appointed this commission is evidence of the desire of the government to see that those coming within the categories mentioned are properly and adequately paid.


Edward Joseph Garland: May I ask the Prime Minister if that was not the purpose of the reference to the Civil Service Commission of this same question some time ago?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was, but unfortunately the Civil Service Commission gave an answer that I do not think my hon. friend would approve of. Certainly the government did not approve of it. We think that the suggestion of the Civil Service Commission was most inadequate. We felt that the professional and technical men were entitled to
very much better recognition than the Civil Service Commission was prepared to grant them, and for that reason we appointed a royal commission to look further into the matter.


Edward Joseph Garland: It will take its guidance, I take it, from the remarks just now made by the Prime Minister that the salaries should be increased over the rates recommended by the Civil Service Commission.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think as respects certain of those concerned that my hon. friend may take that pretty much for granted.


Edward Joseph Garland: That will be all to the good, but I frankly look with a good deal of dread and disappointment at the continuous delays on the part of the administration in this matter. They nave simply passed the thing on from one year to aaofhtr. The Prime Minister's excuse at this moment may be a very legitimate and a very laudable one, that the government desire to give an increase to the technical men'greater than that proposed by the Civil Service Commission. I think perhaps that that is worth while waiting for. In the meantime let us hope that the words of the Prime Minister may be an encouragement to these technical men who are now thinking of leaving their present positions in Canada, and that that encouragement will help them to continue in their present positions.


George Gibson Coote: My only reason for delaying the committee one minute on this question is that I am credibly informed that we are liable to lose one or two of the most valuable men we have engaged in research * work in connection with rust, which after all, is one of the biggest problems facing agriculture in Canada. If the remarks of the Prime Minister are correct, I am a little surprised that the government did not accept the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission, and if they felt that the technical men were not being adequately compensated by the increases recommended by the Civil Service Commission they could then very well have appointed the royal commission which is now sitting and empowered them to recommend further increases to such of the technical men as they think should receive it. As I said, we are very liable to lose one or two men, particular'y one whom we should find it impossible to replace, and who will likely go to the United States at an initial salary of

Concurrence-Board of Audit
$10,000 whereas we pay him around $3,000. The government should take a little more intelligent interest in what I consider to be some of the most vital questions affecting agriculture in Canada to-day, instead of taking so much interest in these advertising shows.
Progress reported.
Resolution read the second time and concurred in.



SUPPLY-CONCURRENCE

James Alexander Robb: I beg to move:
That the resolutions adopted in committee of supply on April 24, 25, 26, 29, May 3, 6, 10, 20, 28, 29, 30, 31, and June 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, be now read the second time and concurred in.


John Anderson Fraser: I asked the Minister of
Finance a question just before the committee rose at one o'clock-


Hewitt Bostock: There can be no debate
on the motion.


James Alexander Robb: By unanimous consent; Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman might put his question.


John Anderson Fraser: I had asked the Minister
of Finance a question in regard to the audit board and he made the following reply: "Perhaps later on I might let any one item stand and give that information to my hon. friend when I have secured it." I wonder if the minister would put the information on Hansard.


James Alexander Robb: The information with respect to the Board of Audit which my hon. friend asked for is as follows:
Board of Audit Remuneration-Annual
Chairman, Gordon W. Scott, $4,000.
Members, L. E. Potvin, $3,000; E. J. Howson, $3,000.	,
The rates of compensation for skilled assistance, authorized by the treasury board, are:
Partners, not over $50 per diem.
Senior clerks, not over $35 per diem.
Assistant clerks, not over $15 per diem.
In addition to these rates both the members of the board and their assistants are allowed actual travelling and living expenses.
Work authorized and completed
Treasury board minute of February 21, 1927 authorized inquiry and investigation into certain branches and accounts of the Department of Finance. The report of the board was completed on December 16, 1927 and tabled during the session of 1928.
Treasury board minute of March 24, 1927 authorized the board to inquire into and report on the financial affairs of the Quebec harbour commission. The report of the board was completed on January 16, 1928 and tabled during the session of 1928.
[Mr. Coote.l
Treasury board minute * of March 24, 1927 authorized an audit of the affairs in connection with the enemy property and debt accounts. The report of the board was completed and laid before parliament during the present session.
Work authorized but not yet completed
Treasury board minute of November 16, 1928 authorized the board to inquire into and report on the accounts and records of the Canadian government elevators and the western and eastern grain inspection divisions.
Treasury board minutes of January 25, 1929 authorized the board to inquire into and report on the financial affairs of the following harbour commissions:
Halifax harbour commission.
St. John harbour commission.
Montreal harbour commission.
Quebec harbour commission.
Chicoutimi harbour commission.
Three Rivers harbour commission.
Vancouver harbour commission.
New Westminster harbour commission.
Treasury board minute of January 25, 1929 authorized the board to inquire into and report with regard to the loaning operations of the Soldier Settlement Board of Canada.
Treasury board minute of January 25, 1929 authorized the board to inquire into payments to the Canadian National Railways under the Maritime Freight Rates Act.
Treasury Board minute of January 25, 1929 directed the board to inquire into and report in regard to collection of naturalization fees by the clerks of courts.
Expenditures of the government in connection with the board to March 31, 1929 were:
Fiscal Compensation Other
Year	to Members Expenses Total
1927- 28.. .. $10,000	$61,317 64	$71,317 641928- 29.. ..	10,000	59,851 71	69,851 71


John Anderson Fraser: In regard to premium bonds,
I have been reviewing this question considerably during the session, all based on the report of the Auditor General. I do not propose to discuss it at the present time, as I have already spoken about it, but I would suggest' that the minister appoint an inter-departmental commission to review the whole question of indemnity bonds so far as the collection and distribution of the revenue of the country is concerned. As chairman of the commission I would suggest Mr. Finlayson, the superintendent of insurance, and as to the other members, the Minister of Finance knows his officials better than I do.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend1 has already
brought this matter to the attention of t^e house. He may recall that I said some days ago that we had asked the Department of Justice for a ruling as to the legality of the procedure. We have made up our minds to have an inter-departmental inquiry made if the ruling of the Department of Justice is that the present method is not legal. In any

Procedure Respecting Dit>orce
event, I think that it would be profitable to have an inter-departmental inquiry, so that we can report to parliament next session.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolutions reported, read the second time and concurred in.	[DOT]


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
James Alexander Robb: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1930, the sum of $243,168,149.17 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Robb thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 365, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1930.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first and second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS	*

Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to lay
before the house the hardy annual-the report of the organization of the staff of the House of Commons.
On motion of Mr. Rinfret the report was concurred in.


PRIVATE BILES
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, I move that
the house proceed to the order "private bills."


Hewitt Bostock: By unanimous consent.


THIRD READING
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 357, for the relief of Isabella Henderson.-Mr. Heaps.

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 316, for the relief of Catherine McRae Beattie McRae.-Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 337, for the relief of Ediward Ernest True.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 338, for the relief of Glennville Wesley Potter.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 339, for the relief of Elizabeth Mitchell.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 340, for the relief of Edith May Enfield.-Mr. Howden.
Bill No. 341, for the relief of Lillian Elizabeth Barton.-Mr. Boys.
Bill No. 360, for the relief of Ruth Oretta Taaffe.-Mr. Donnelly.
Bill No. 361, for the relief of Frank William Benson.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 362, for the relief of Hilda Rebecca Allison.-Mr. jelliff.
Bill No. 363, for the relief of Sydney James Black.-Mr. Hay.
Bill No. 364, for the relief of Llewellyn John Chubb-Mr. Anderson (Toronto-High Park).

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 348, for the relief of Louis Coit Dargavel-Mr. Casselman-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Mr. HEAPS:: This bill, Mr. Chairman, provoked considerable discussion last Tuesday evening, and by a majority vote it was referred 'back to the private bills committee.
I think it hardly fair under the circumstances that- the measure should be brought up at this late hour; it is not right, because there is so much involved in it. Certain evidence was supposed to be submitted to the senate committee but they claim they had not time to go into the matter. I do not think we should rush these bills through the house with undue haste without giving the parties concerned an opportunity for a proper hearing. This undue haste leaves a bad impression, and for the sake of the house itself I think we should adopt a better method of dealing with these cases. I do not want to move an amendment, but in view of the fact that the bill was referred back to the special committee for the purpose of taking further evidence I think we should have an explanation from the chairman of the committee as to why the matter is now before us without having been properly inquired into.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall section 1 carry?


Abraham Albert Heaps: No. Is the chairman of the private bills committee present?


John Livingstone Brown: I was prepared to speak in opposition to this bill and to give reasons why it should not carry. When the bill was before the house a few evenings ago I was not then familiar with the evidence and therefore I did not vote on the question, at that time; I was entirely ignorant of the circumstances.

Procedure Respecting Divorce
Afterwards I reviewed the evidence to the best of my ability and I wish now to place before the committee as well as I can the situation as it appears to me.
The petitioners in this case seemed to rest all their evidence, in the first place, upon the alleged fact that the respondent and the corespondent had been living together as man and wife in a certain block in the city of Rochester. A witness was brought before the senate committee to prove that. The janitress testified that these people had been living there under the assumed name of Rugg. The name of the co-respondent is Kottmeir. The janitress, as I say swore that these people had been living there under this assumed name. She was brought here evidently at the earnest solicitation of a private detective named Wilcox. If you read the evidence you will see that it required a good deal of persuasion on the part of the private detective to get that woman to come; but finally she was persuaded to appear and give evidence. Later evidence was brought that entirely rebutted that testimony. It was shown that Rugg was not a fictitious name but the real name of a man who had been living with his wife in these apartments at the time in question. There was at least suspicion that perjury had been committed in the case. It was shown that the woman who was living in these apartments did not in any way resemble the respondent.; the respondent is, I understand, a woman of medium size while the wife of Rugg was a large, tall woman. So that this at least gives countenance to the belief that there had been perjury in the matter. At any rate, the evidence was completely overthrown by the testimony of the former janitor, a man named Shaw, and of his wife, who proved that Rugg and his wife had occupied the apartment at the time the respondent and the co-respondent were alleged to have occupied it. The testimony on that point seemed absolutely conclusive, and the whole case rested in the first place upon that allegation. But when that, was overthrown they sought to bring in evidence on another point. 'This private detective Wilcox accordingly swore that he had seen the respondent and the co-respondent going into another apartment or apartment block-for there seemed to be some confusion on that point-on three different occasions. On two of these occasions, he said, he watched them going into the apartment but he did not see them coming out, and on the third occasion he saw them going in at a certain time early in the afternoon and coming out about five o'clock. This is an entirely uncorroborated statement on the part of the
fMr. Brown.]
private detective, who w,e have reason to believe was guilty of bringing forward false testimony in regard to the other apartments. His testimony is entirely unsupported. At the very best it would be only negative evidence; he says he saw them going in but did not see them coming out. On the third occasion however, as I say, he saw them coming out a ferw hours later but he did not follow them further than to the door of the apartment house. When the case was brought before the senate committee counsel for the respondent wished to bring forward further evidence; at least, he sought a delay in order that he might submit additional testimony. And to support his request for an adjournment he produced certain affidavits. He did not produce them by way of evidence, because the senate committee does not admit affidavits as evidence; he produced them to support his plea for a further adjournment. He was not granted the length of adjournment he wished; he was given a short adjournment which did not afford him an opportunity to bring the evidence he wanted. The affidavits produced are here and I believe they are in proper order. I am not accustomed to dealing with these matters, but so far as I can see they are. in perfectly proper order. And the affidavits are to the effect that during the time covering the dates on which the respondent and the co-respondent are said to have been seen going into the apartment house, the man was sick in bed and therefore could noit possibly be seen by the private detective as alleged. There is, it is true, another incident that took place in the Oliver apartments, but even in respect to that incident nothing more than an inference can be drawn, and both the respondent and the co-respondent give what seems to be a reasonable explanation of what happened there.
Remember, then, these facts: The statement upon which the whole case was based turned out to be false; it was absolutely dis-proven. Then there was the private detective, who, we have reason to believe, induced the janitress to come here and commit perjury. I saw her affidavit in which she withdrew the statements she had made. What weight, then, can be given to the testimony of that private detective?-because after all it is on his evidence we -must depend. I have reviewed the case very hastily and only as a layman, but it seems to me that the charges against the woman have not been proven, and I think this committee, should throw out the bill.

Procedure Respecting Divorce


Abraham Albert Heaps: I move that the committee
rise and report progress.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I am rather in doubt as to
what would be the effect if we rise arid report progress now. I am under the impression that if the committee rises and reports progress we will have to proceed with the third readings of the other bills which have been reported. If that is the case I would like the motion to stand, otherwise I would withdraw it.


John Frederick Johnston: Do I understand that
the hon. gentleman is moving that the committee rise and report progress on this bill?


Abraham Albert Heaps: No, on all the bills; but
before the motion is put I would like to know whether it would mean that the other bills will receive third reading now. I do not want to prevent them from being read the third time, but I am opposed to this bill


John Frederick Johnston: Bill 348 is now before the committee and it will be necessary for the committee to decide if this bill should stand while we report progress on the other bills. Is it the desire of the committee that the proceedings in connection with Bill 348 and Bill 296 should stand for the moment while progress is reported on the other bills?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from June 11 consideration of the motion of Mr. Sanderson for the third reading of Bill No. 296, for the relief of Charles Edwin Walker.
Mr. FRANKLIN SMOKE (Brant):: In the absence of the hon. member for Perth (Mr. Sanderson) I beg leave to move the third reading of this bill. I have read very carefully the evidence taken before the senate committee and I think it proves conclusively the charges alleged in the petition. An adjournment was asked for by the respondent for the purpose of producing a cousin named Mrs. Henderson. The adjournment asked for was not allowed but one of ten or twelve days was granted. Mrs. Henderson did not appear at the adjourned hearing, and counsel for the respondent appeared simply to ask for the expunging of certain portions of the evidence. The senate committee then heard the further evidence and found in favour of the complainant. The evidence which it was alleged Mrs. Henderson would give was in the nature of an alibi. The respondent and Mrs. Henderson were residing together, but it is not
reasonable to suppose that Mrs. Henderson would have been able to prove where the respondent was on the three occasions upon which it was alleged offences occurred. One might have happened in one month, the next one two months later, and so on; therefore the evidence as to an alibi could not be conclusive. The bill was referred by this house to the private bills committee and the complainant and his lawyer were present but no one appeared for the respondent although the agent in Ottawa was notified. I therefore beg to move that the question be now put.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: I was a member of the private bills committee-


Hewitt Bostock: Do I understand that
the hon. gentleman is moving the previous question?


Franklin Smoke: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: When the bill was before the 'house I understand that the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) moved an amendment thereto; has Your Honour that amendment?


An hon. MEMBER:: There was no seconder.


Hewitt Bostock: The records show that
there was no amendment. If the hon. leader of the Progressive party (Mr. Gardiner) will read No. 43 of the order paper he will find that it reads as follows:
Resuming debate on the motion of Mr. Sanderson for the third reading of Bill No. 296, intituled: "An Act for the relief of Charles Edwin Walker" (Without amendment).
There is no amendment before the chair, but the previous question is always debatable.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Do I understand Your
Honour to rule that it is not debatable?


Hewitt Bostock: It is debatable.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: As I remember the case, there was a material witness who was unable to appear before the senate committee because she had undergone a very serious operation. This witness was to prove an alibi for the respondent. It would be a very serious matter to this lady if a divorce were granted upon the.grounds of adultery without her being given every opportunity to prove otherwise.


Franklin Smoke: I rise to a point of order.
If my motion is debatable the subject matter referred to by the bon. member who has just taken his seat should not be discussed. He is discussing tire merits of the case.

Procedure Respecting Divorce


Hewitt Bostock: The motion is debatable.


Franklin Smoke: The motion is that the
question be now put.


Hewitt Bostock: I was asked a minute ago whether the motion for the previous question was debatable or not and I said that it was debatable. Let me call attention to standing order 38 which reads:
The following motions are debatable:-
Every motion
(c) for the previous question.
Therefore, when a motion is made for the previous question, it is debatable. I have been asked by some hon. members what is meant by the previous question. Those who vote in favour of the previous question, that is, that the question be now put, vote for an immediate decision, without any further debate or amendment, after this vote is taken, on the principle of the bill. After the motion for the previous question is carried, there is no discussion on the principle of the bill.


Hewitt Bostock: The question is on the
third reading of bill No. 296, for the relief of Charles Edwin Walker. Moved by Mr. Smoke, seconded by Mr. Senn, that this bill be now read a third time.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed, on division.


LOUIS COIT DARGAVEL
[Stage Direction]
Mr. A. C. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dun-das) moved that the house go into committee on Rill No. 348, for the relief of Louis Goit Dargavel.
Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
On Section 1-Marriage dissolved.
Abraham Albert Heaps: I beg to move that the committee rise and report progress.
Motion (Mr. Heaps) negatived.
Section agreed to on division.
Section 2 agreed to on division.
Preamble agreed to on division.
Title agreed to on division.
Bill reported.


Hewitt Bostock: When shall the report be received?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Next sitting of
the house.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Now.


Hewitt Bostock: The house will have to
decide. There is no amendment to the bill. Those in favour of having the bill reported now will kindly say aye.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Aye.


Hewitt Bostock: Those opposed will kindly
say no.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No.


Hewitt Bostock: I declare the ayes have
it. When shall the bill be read a third time?


Robert Gardiner: Next sitting.


Hewitt Bostock: In cases of pressing necessity, the sponsor of the bill can ask for the third reading now.


Mr. CASSELMAN:: In view of the statement that you have just made, Mr. Speaker, and considering that this is almost the last minute of the session, this case is urgent, and I would therefore move with the leave of the house that the bill be now read a third time.

Prorogation


Hewitt Bostock: When shall the bill be read a third time?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Next sitting.


Hewitt Bostock: It is for the house to
say. Standing order 77 says:
All amendments made in committee are reported by the chairman to the house, which shall receive the same forthwith. After report the bill is open to debate and amendment, before it is ordered for a third reading. But when a bill is reported without amendment, it is forthwith ordered to be read a third time at such time as may be appointed by the house.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, on division, and bill read the third time.
Mr. CASSELMAN moved that the bill do now pass and that the title be as on the order paper.
Robert Gardiner: Mr. Speaker, we did not hear you say that the bill was read a third time.


Hewitt Bostock: Oh yes, I put the question quite audibly. It is now moved that the bill do now pass and the title be as on the order paper. Is there objection to that?
++NAYS
Adshead,
Baldwin,
Benoit,
Bourassa,
Brown,
Campbell,
Goote,
Fansher (Last Mountain), Forke, Gardiner,
Messrs:
Garland (Bow River), Heaps,
Jelliff,
Kellner,
Kennedy,
Letellier de St. Just, Lucas,
Luctikovich,
Smith (Stormont), Speabman,
Spencer.-21.
At 4.50 p.m. the sitting was suspended until 5 p.m. this day.
The house resumed at five o'clock.


PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT
[Stage Direction]
A message was delivered by Major A. R. Thompson, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows:
Mr. Speaker, His Excellency the Governor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the senate.
Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the senate chamber.
Robert Gardiner: Certainly.


Hewitt Bostock: Those in favour of the
motion will kindly rise.


Mr. BOURASSA:: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are in full house and a registered vote should be taken upon this motion. The vote cannot be taken by counting heads.


Hewitt Bostock: I asked that the names
be called as usual. Call in the members.


BILLS ASSENTED TO
[Stage Direction]
An Act to amend the Railway Act.
An Act for the relief of Calvert Mitchell Car-ruthers.
An Act for the relief of Florence Jane Sheppard.
An Act for the relief of William Ernest Foulkes.
An Act_ for the relief of Harry Babington Millward.
An Act for the relief of Alla Chretter.
An Act for the relief of Myrtle Virginia Maulson.
An Act for the relief of Claude Le Cheminant.
An Act for the relief of Alice Gladys Barkey.
An Act for the relief of Irene Mabel Usher.
An Act for the relief of Anna Estella DeNike.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Spain.
An Act for the relief of Louisa Hitchman.
An Act for the relief of Minerva Elliott.
An Act for the relief of Edyth May Shields.
An Act for the relief of Mary Melvina Guerin.
An Act for the relief of Marion Ruth Laid-man.
An Act for the relief of Sophia Love.
An Act for the relief of Harry Freeman Switzer.
An Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from a point on the Murray Harbour Branch to a point on the Georgetown Subdivision of the Canadian Government Railways, in the Province of Prince Edward Island.
Prorogation
[Stage Direction]
An Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from Sunnybrae to Guysborough, in the Province of Nova Scotia.
An Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from a point on the Dundas Subdivision near Brantford to a point on the Dunnville Subdivision near Cainsville, in the Province of Ontario.
An Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Line from a point on the Garson Branch to the Falconbridge Mine, in the Province of Ontario.
An Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from a point on the Sudbury Branch to a point in the Township of Fairbaiik. in the Province of Ontario.
An Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line from a point near Melfort to a point near Aberdeen, in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from a point near Central Butte or Mawer to a point in Township IS or 19, Range 10. 11 or 12, West of the Third Meridian in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from Neid-path to a point on the Canadian Pacific Railway near Swift Current, in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	aCanadian National Railway Line from Ridge-dale, in the Province of Saskatchewan, thirty miles	toward The Pas, in the Province	of
Manitoba.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from a point near Unity	to a point near the Provincial
Boundary in Township 36 or 37, in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from a point near Hamlin to a point near Glenbush, Med-stead or Robin Hood, in the Province of Saskatchewan.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from St. Walburg. in the Province of Saskatchewan, to Bonnyville, in the Province of Alberta.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from Alliance to a point near Youngstown or Dobson, in the Province of Alberta.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from a point at or near Bulwark to a point in Township 38 or 39, Range 8, West of the Fourth Meridian, in the	Province of Alberta.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction	of	a
Canadian National Railway Line from Hema-ruka to Seapa, in the Province of Alberta.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction of a
Canadian National Railway Line from a point near Swift Creek to a point near Tete Jaune, in the Province of British Columbia.
An	Act	respecting	the	construction of a
Canadian National Railway Line from New Westminster to a point on Lulu Island, in the Province of British Columbia, with Branches therefrom.
An	Act	to amend	the	Civil Service Act
(Private Secretaries).
An Act respecting The Toronto Terminals. Railway Company.
An	Act	to amend	the	Canadian National
Railways Act.

An Act respecting Canadian National Railways and to authorize the acquisition of the Quebec, Montreal and Southern Railway.
An Act to authorize consent to the sale of certain cable and wireless telegraph undertakings established under the Pacific Cable Acts, 1901 to 1924	(Imp.), and the West
Indian Islands (Telegraph) Act, 1924 (Imp.).
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Agnes	Victoria
Leader.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Adele	Cawthra
Rogers.
An Act for the relief of Madelaine Virginia Lumsden.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Edgar	Charles
Buchanan.
An Act for the relief of Isabel Honor Gilderoy.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Harvey Baden
Powell Haney.
An Act for the relief of John Campbell.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Nicholl.
An Act for the relief of Marjory Lavinia Bradford.
An Act for the relief of Patrizio Nardini.
An Act for the relief of Constance Mary Kearns.
An Act for the relief of Edna Louise Brown.
An Act for the relief of Wallace Evered Gillespie.
An Act for the relief of Florence May Forbes.
An Act for the relief of Susannah Musson Savery.
An Act for the relief of Maud Parker.
An Act for the relief of Eleanor Vair.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Lillian Augusta
Dunn.
An Act for the relief of Catherine Goring..
An Act for the relief of Mary Bertha Dupuis Ranger.
An Act for the relief of Ivy Georgina Lloyd.
An Act for the relief of Helen Steele.
An Act for the relief of Annie Forbes Sangster.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Charles Stanley
Cuneo.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	William Allan
Griffith.
An Act for the relief of Sydney Bishop.
An Act for the relief of Walter Henry Lyne Dixson.
An	Act	respecting the	Canadian National
Railways, and to provide for the refunding of certain maturing financial obligations.
An Act to amend the Fish Inspection Act.
An Act to provide for a further loan to the Vancouver Harbour Commissioners.
An Act to provide for a loan to the Three Rivers Harbour Commissioners.
An Act to provide for a further loan to the Chicoutimi Harbour Commissioners.
An Act to provide for a further loan to the Halifax Harbour Commissioners.
An Act respecting the Administration of Justice in the Yukon Territory.
An Act to provide for a further loan to the Harbour Commissioners of Montreal.
An Act to amend the Customs Tariff.
An Act to amend the Excise Act.
An Act respecting Joliette and Northern Railway Company.
An Act respecting The Premier Guarantee and Accident Insurance Company of Canada.
An Act respecting a certain patent of Zebulum Colvin Ketehum.

Prorogation
An Act for the relief of Frederick Ruther-foord Zoppi.
An Act for the relief of Thomas Southwood.
An Act for the relief of Bessie Ruth Glass.
An Act for the relief of Edith Marie Mc-Farlane.	_
An Act. for the relief of Cleoniki Paleologou Drakoulas.
An Act for the relief of Nanette Coffey.
An Act for the relief of James Graham Mc-Creadie.
An Act for the relief of Stephen Dymon.
An Act for the relief of Marion Isabel Kemp.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Crawford Copping.
An Act for the relief of Arthur Alderton.
An Act for the relief of Elias Abraham, otherwise known as Elie Abraham Allen.
An Act for the relief of Claude Frederick Burgin.
An Act	for	the	relief of	Mary Addie Linton.An Act	for	the	relief of	Edna Maud James.
An Act for the relief of Helen Jane Sim Pittendreich.
An Act for the relief of Alfred Roy Edwards.
An Act	for	the	relief of	Molly Vaughan.An Act	for	the	relief of	Myrtle Mary Jane
McLean.
An Act for the relief of Jeanie Mathieson Howell.
An Act for the relief of Gordon Asher True.
An Act for the relief of Ida Rosenberg.
An Act respecting Canadian National Railways and to authorize the acquisition of the Ouebec Oriental Railway and the Atlantic, Quebec and Western Railway.
An Act respecting Canadian National Railways and to authorize the acquisition of the Saint John and Quebec Railway.
An Act respecting certain employees of the Postal or Railway Mail Service of Canada.
An Act to amend and consolidate the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act.
An Act to amend an Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line between Grand'Mere and East Burrills, in the province of Quebec.
An Act to amend an Act respecting the construction of a Canadian National Railway Line, being a joint section from Rosedale southeasterly in the province of Alberta.
An Act respecting Canadian National Railways and to authorize the acquisition of The Kent Northern Railway.
An Act respecting Canadian National Railways and to authorize the acquisition of the Inverness Railway.
An Act respecting a certain patent of Cobb Connector Company.
An Act respecting a certain patent of Jean Baptiste Hurteau.
An Act for the relief of Marie Rose Beffre Baer.
An Act for the relief of Ethel Evelyn Farrow.
An Act for the relief of John Alfred Neary.
An Act for the relief of Charles Storey.
An Act for the relief of Eva Alexandra Grayson Smith.
An Act for the relief of Ernest Gillespie Simpson.
An Act for the relief of Laura Grace Osborne Lea.
An Act for the relief of Gertrude Helena Martin.
An Act for the relief of Laura Warren.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Ethel Elizabeth
Kelley.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Andrew Ralph
Wilson.
An Act for the relief of Marion Jane Stewart.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Mildred Muriel
Lange.
An Act for the relief of Linda Lydia Snowdon Pascoe.
An Act for the relief of John Garbery Hickman.
An Act for the relief of Lydia Alice Hinch.
An Act for the relief of Allan Plant.
An Act for the relief of Pansy Jean Van Luven.
An Act for the relief of William Treslove.
An Act for the relief of Annie Letticia Smith.
An Act for the relief of Frederick Herman Schelke.	_
An Act for the relief of Jennie White.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Alma Berlinda
S wayne.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Gladys	Evelyn
Lawrence.
An Act for the relief of Daniel Ray Bouvier.
An Act for the relief of Edyth Viola Bea-cock.
An Act for the relief of Bertha Nichols.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	George	Nelson
Brown.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of Albert	Victor
Walter Holman Homan.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	James	Duncan
Gerard.
An Act for the relief of Frances Vera Carter Van Luven.
An Act for the relief of Violet Haney.
An Act for the relief of James Thompson Clark.
An Act for the relief of James Collingwood Darroch.
An Act for the relief of Ross James Smalley.
An Act for the relief of Alexander James Purse.
An Act for the relief of Wilfred Keith Black.
An Act for the relief of Fanny Green Fuchs Webber.
An Act for the relief of Henry Lawrence Jones.
An Act for the relief of Dean William Monerieff.
An Act for the relief of William John Brett.
An Act for the relief of Grace Viola Byers.
An Act for the relief of Mildred Soden.
An Act for the relief of Mabel Graham.
An Act for the relief of Velma Stella Seadon.
An Act for the relief of Emma O'Grady.
An Act for the relief of Edna Marguerite Stroud Robinson.
An Act for the relief of Gordon Hanna.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Richardson.
An Act for the relief of Angus John Archibald Blaine.
An Act for the relief of Thomas Horace Sillery.
An Act for the relief of George Melville Fulton.
An Act for the relief of Gladys Elizabeth Boyd.
Prorogation
[Stage Direction]
An Act for the relief of Annie Fraser Rice.
An Act for the relief of Clarence Spurgeon White.
An Act for the relief of Gertrude Georgeanna Anderson.
An Act for the relief of Lloyd Edward Angel.
An Act for the relief of George Stanley Warner.
An Act for the relief of Vincenzina Gramigna.
An Act for the relief of Kenneth Evan Thompson.
_,4n *or the relief of Thomas Matthews Mol and.
An Act for the relief of Andrew Townsley Hirsch.
An Act to incorporate the Northern Alberta Railways Company, and respecting the Canadian National Railway Company and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
An Act to provide for the payment of Claims for Compensation for loss sustained by the civil population of Canada during the late War.
An Act to amend The Returned Soldiers' Insurance Act.
An Act respecting Water Power in the Provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba.
An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act.
An Act to amend the Penny Bank Act.
An Act to amend the Special War Revenue Act.
An Act to amend the Insurance Act.
An Act respecting Central Finance Corporation.
An Act respecting The Dominion Fire Insurance Company.
An Act respecting Alliance Nationale.
An Act t-o ratify and confirm the organization and the election of directors of Fami'y Trust, and to change the name of that company to "Financial Trust Company."
An Act to incorporate The Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.
An Act for the relief of Henry Feldman.
A11. Act for the relief of Marion Rose Harrison.
An Act for the relief of Robert Wilson Reoch.	.
An Act for the relief of William Edward King.
An Act for the relief of John Wilson Pickering.
An Act for the relief of Wallace Wellington Corkum.
An Act for the relief of Marion Anne Terry
An Act for the relief of Joseph Edwin Wood.
An Act for the relief of Dora Chearnlev Chearnley.
An Act for the relief of William Edgar Rail'd.
An Act for the relief of Edith Laura Hewitt.
An Act for the relief of Bertha Jane Phelan.
An Act for the relief of Roland Emory Anderson.
An Act for the belief of Olive Marion Gerrard.
An Act for the relief of John Beck.
An Act for the relief of George King.
An Act respecting The New Brunswick Railway Company.
An Act respecting Juvenile Delinquents.
An Act to amend The Precious Metals Marking Act, 1928.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Leonard Wiser.
An Act respecting the construction by the Canadian National Railway Company of certain terminal facilities with grade separation and other works at and in the vicinity of the city of Montreal.
An Act respecting The Dominion of Canada Guarantee and Accident Insurance Company, and to change its name to "The Dominion of Canada General Insurance Company."
An Act to amend the Yukon Quartz Mining Act.
An Act to amend the Canada Grain Act.
An Act to amend the Dominion Elections
Act.
An Act respecting The Royal Architectural Institute of Canada.
An Act for the relief of Stella Pearl Duncan.
An Act for the relief of Hurley Alexander Fummerton.
An Act for the relief of Barbara Elise Sewell de la Penotiere.
An Act for the relief of Oliver Milton Martin.
An Act for the relief of Mary Jane Teeson.
An Act for the relief of Sam Gladstone.
An Act for the relief of Charles Smolkin.
An Act for the relief of James Franklin Mc-Donagh.
An Act for the relief of Joseph Louis Philippe Cor beau.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Frances Thirza
Edl.und.
An Act for the relief of Vivian Elizabeth
rearee.
An Act for the relief of Alice Clarke.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Kathleen Mary
Hambourg.
An Act for the relief of Florence Gertrude Singer.
An Act for the relief of Mabel Bullis.
An Act for the relief of Fanny Elizabeth Reed Kendall.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Robert Henry
Dunlop Ellis.
An Act for the relief of Evelyn Cowie.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Enid Marjorie
Judd.
An Act for the relief of Vera Alice Griffin.
An Act for the relief of Cristina Adams Bourne.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Agnes Townsend.
An Act for the relief of William John Blight.
An Act for the relief of Kenneth Blackwood Gibb.
An Act for the relief of Edith Spencley.
An Act for the relief of Annie Farrow.
An Act for the relief of Evelyn Mae Warren.
An Act for the relief of Vera Maud Gendron.
An Act for the relief of Lillian Ainsworth.
An Act for the relief of Sarah Berkovitz.
An Act for the relief of George Frederick Wilson.
An Act for the relief of Roy Franklin Beattie.
An Act for the relief of John George Laney.
An Act for the relief of Albert Nott.
An Act for the relief of John Thomas Legge.
An Act for the relief of Emil Henry Horn-burg.
An Act to amend the Fisheries Act.
An Act for the relief of Catherine McRae Beattie McRae.
An Act for the relief of Edward Ernest True.

Governor General's Speech
An Act for the relief of Glennville Wesley Potter.
An Act for the relief of Elizabeth Mitchell.
An Act for the relief of Edith May Enfield.
An Act for the relief of Lillian Elizabth Barton.
An Act for the relief of Isabelle Henderson.
An Act for the relief of Ruth Oretta Taaffe.
An Act for the relief of Prank Willian Benson.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Hilda Rebecca
Allison.
An Act for the relief of Sydney James Black.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Llewellyn John
Chubb.
An	Act	for	the	relief	of	Charles Edwin
Walker.
An Act for the relief of Lewis Coit Uargavel.
To these bills the royal assent was pronounced by the Clerk of the Senate in the following words:
In His Majesty's name His Excellency the Governor General doth assent to these bills.
Then the Honourable the Speaker of the House of Commons addressed His Excellency the Governor General as follows:
May it please Your Excellency:
The Commons of Canada have voted supplies required to enable the government to defray certain expenses of the public service.
In the name of the Commons I present to Your Excellency the following bill:
An act for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the financial year ending the 31st March 1930.
To which bill I humbly request Your Excellency's assent.
To this bill the Clerk of the Senate, by command of His Excellency the Governor General, did thereupon say:
In His Majesty's name. His Excellency the Governor General thanks his loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to this bill.

[Stage Direction]
After which His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to close the third session of the sixteenth parliament of the Dominion of Canada with the following speech: Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
I desire to express my appreciation of the expedition with which you have conducted the proceedings of the session of parliament now concluded, and of the attention given by you to its exacting duties.
It is gratifying to observe that it has again been possible to effect a further reduction of taxation, and also a substantial reduction in the public debt.
The improvement in Canada's financial position has been paralleled by a continuous improvement in the financial position of the Canadian railways and by a steady growth in manufacturing and in domestic and foreign trade. The acts making provision for another comprehensive program of branch line construction by the two railway systems, for the acquisition by the Canadian National system of certain lines Of railway in different provinces, for the construction of adequate terminal facilities at Montreal, for the completion of the Hudson Bay Railway and harbour facilities at Fort Churchill, and for further loans to the harbour commissioners of our national ports, are indications of your recognition of the urgent demand for more adequate transportation and trade facilities.
The policy of promoting the expansion of trade by assisting the establishment of steamship services abroad has been amply justified. The Canadian National service inaugurated last year to ports in South America has required the addition of more ships than was at first contemplated, and the West Indies service^ has attracted an increasing export trade. Provision has been made for an increased service to South Africa, also for establishing a new connection with Australia and New Zealand. Provision has also been made for an increase in the number of trade commissioners in foreign countries.
Resulting from an exhaustive inquiry and a unanimous report by the standing committee of the House of Commons on agriculture and colonization, amendments have been made to the Canada Grain Act respecting the storage, shipping, mixing, inspection and grading of grain, which it is believed will more adequately protect the standards of Canadian grain and prove of benefit to the producers.
With a view to the improvement of the existing electoral system, a special committee of the House of Commons was appointed to inquire into the Dominion Elections Act and the Cur-rupt Practices Inquiries Act. After devoting much time and study to the several subjects submitted for its consideration, this committee also presented a unanimous report, in accordance with the recommendations of which important amendments to the Dominion Elections Act have been enacted. Among other changes introduced by this legislation, provision is made for the future appointment of returning officers by the chief electoral officer, and for a more efficient method of preparing election lists in urban centres.
Among other important measures enacted were bills respecting pensions to employees of the Canadian National Railways, also amendments to the Narcotic Drug Act. the Fisheries Act, the Insurance Act, and the Juvenile Delinquents Act.
The report of the royal commission appointed to inquire into the financial readjustments incidental to a transfer to the province of Manitoba of its natural resources has been received. The report will be made the basis of negotiations between the governments of the Dominion and the province with a view to effecting a final agreement.
Governor General's Speech
[Stage Direction]
A postal convention has recently been signed whereby the rate o£ postage between Canada and France has been reduced.
The approval of parliament has been given to the general treaty for the renunciation of war; to the protocol for the prohibition of the use in war of asphyxiating, poisonous or other
fases, and of bacteriological methods of war-are, and to the convention and protocol between Canada and the United States regarding the Niagara falls and the Niagara river.
Members of the House of Commons:
I thank you for the generous provision you have made for the public service.
Honourable Members of the Senate:
Members of the House of Commons:
The progress of His Majesty's convalescence has given cause for deep thankfulness during recent months. I share your sincere hope that the complication which has lately developed may be of brief duration and that His Majesty's health may soon be completely restored.
In taking leave of you at this time, I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.
This ooruoluded the third session of the sixteenth parliament.