1928-02-15

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, a fortnight
ago feeling reference was made in this house from all sides to the death of Field Marshal Earl Haig, the commander-in-chief of the British forces during the Great War. It is fitting in view of the announcement which has come to us from Great Britain to-day that we pause in the midst of our duties to pay a brief tribute to the name and memory of the one who was Prime Minister of Great Britain at the outbreak of war, and who held that high office during the first two years of the war.
I shall not attempt in any way to review the high attainments and great career of the late Lord Oxford and Asquith. They are present to the minds of all to-day, and will become increasingly appreciated as party controversy fades in the clearer light of the perspective of history.
Mr. J. A. Spender, in a recently published volume, The Public Life, significantly remarks that the great war is like a vast watershed which cuts across the territory surveyed when one seeks to speak of the men who were associated with the war; that so exceptional and stirring were the events of that time that it tends to make it difficult, if not impossible, to recall many, of the incidents of careers that had been long and useful at a date anterior thereto. In this connection I would remind the house that the career of public service of the late Lord Oxford and Asquith extended over the greater part of half a century; that in that time he occupied the office of prime minister for eight years and eight months, a period of unbroken service in that position, longer than that of any prime minister of Great Britain; that his life was intimately associated with most of the important events which immediately preceded the war, and that his public service, from the beginning to the close of his career, was of an exceptionally high and useful character. Were testimony to the exceptional character of his public services required I would remind hon. members that when Mr. Asquith but a year or two ago was offered an earldom by His Majesty the King, it was upon the recommendation of the leader of the political party to which he had been traditionally opposed. There has been no more graceful incident in the many amenities of British public life-
As to Mr. Asquith's relation to the war, I should like to quote a paragraph from the
book to which I have already referred. It serves to bring out a feature that all who are charged with the responsibilities of public life will keenly appreciate. Speaking of the men associated with the great war, Mr. Spender says it is impossible to consider them, and more particularly Asquith and one or two others whose names he mentions,
-without feeling that they are in a certain sense marked off from their fellows. They had to make decisions which shook the world, which touched the very existence of their country, which brought death and desolation, salvation and victory, to their own fellow-countrymen, and to multitudes in other lands. They had to bear responsibilities beside which those that fell on their predecessors, however illustrious their names, seem like feathers in the scale.
There can be little doubt that this great responsibility, a responsibility greater than that which has fallen to the lot of almost any other individual had its effect upon the constitution, upon the powers of resistance of the great statesman who passed away this morning. Having this in our mind, as well as the service which he rendered not only to his own country, but to the British Empire as a whole,
I feel it will be the wish of the members of this parliament to join with the members at Westminster in expressing our very great sympathy with the Countess of Oxford and the other members of the family, who have been so greatly bereaved, and also that it will be the desire of our country to be associated with the other dominions in their sympathy with Great Britain in the loss of one of the greatest of her statesmen whose passing creates a void not only in the public life of his native land, but also, I venture to say, in the public life of the world.
Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition)' Mr. Speaker, it falls to the leader of this house, who is also the Prime Minister, to express on behalf of the Commons House of Parliament as well as on behalf of the Canadian people our sincere sympathy and regret at the passing of the Right Hon. Earl of Oxford and Asquith, familiary known as Mr. Asquith. On behalf of those who sit to your left, Sir, with whom I am associated, I desire to join in that expression of sympathy, and also to express the'sense of loss that the empire has sustained by the death of so distinguished a statesman.
Mr. Asquith came into public life, in the language of Lord Granville, when speaking of the Earl of Beaconsfield:
Without the aid of any of those adventitious circumstances that so often in England contribute to the advent of young men to the House of Commons and to the shaping of a political career.
. COMMONS
Earl of Oxford and Asquith
He was indeed the architect of his own fortunes. Blessed with great natural abilities, he developed them by studiousness and keen application so that he became a student and ultimately a fellow of Baliol and a graduate of the ancient university of Oxford. He chose law as his profession, and very early in his career he manifested those great talents which gave him so quickly a commanding position at the bar. But public life soon claimed him, and while he was still in the early thirties he was elected to parliament for one of the Scottish constituencies, which he represented continuously for over thirty years. He was of such great talent that he early attracted the attention of Mr. Gladstone, and his was the voice which moved the vote of want of confidence which secured the defeat of the Conservative government then led by the Marquis of Salisbury. He succeeded to office, and as Home Secretary made for himself a very distinct mark in the political history of his day. Later he became Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from 1908 to 1916 he was Prime Minister of Great Britain.
With the outbreak of war, as my right hon. friend has said, he had to make decisions that were of the greatest consequence to the whole world. Calm and serene, undisturbed by the shock and the destruction of armies or the loss of ships, Mr. Asquith kept his steady course. Never were the great attributes of a Yorkshire Englishman more evident than in the course he then took, and if there is anything calculated to make a man proud to be born a Yorkshireman, it is the memory of the Asquith of that day.
It is not possible at this time to make any discriminating observations with respect to his standing as a statesman. There are varying opinions as to what his attitude in the years preceding 1914 should have been or might have been, but I recollect a great Scottish statesman once saying to me when I was in England that he believed Mr. Asquith had the greatest control of men of any statesman since the days of Pitt. It must be a matter of inspiration to the Prime Minister to realize that he, to some extent, has not been an unworthy disciple of Mr. Asquith, for with no majority as far aff his own party was concerned, Mr. Asquith held office for many years as Prime Minister, with the aid of two conflicting groups in the House of Commons.
As to what his position may be' in history with respect to the war it is not my purpose to speak. Already varying expressions of opinion have found their place in print. But this will be conceded by all men, that when

that very difficult moment came in his life that he had to relinquish office to one who had served with him, he went out a loyal and devoted patriot and gave his great experience and wide knowledge to his country regardless of what his own position might be. In his life we have a fine example, then, of patriotic sendee to the empire at a moment when it was at the very crisis of its fate.
As to his subsequent career I do not think it is within my province to speak. He retired to the House of Lords, his party broken, and he found some happiness in writing his memoirs, and a greater happiness still perhaps in those excursions into literature which we realize so often characterized his life.
Mr. Asquith was first of all a great scholar. He was one of the foremost classical scholars of England, having been president of the Classical Association for years. It was one of the joys of his life to go to the old school at Winchester where he was welcomed to speak words in Latin and Greek. He was also a distinguished orator. His standing as a statesman I shall not discuss, but he did maintain the proud and noble traditions of parliament, and he did so in a manner worthy of the greatest statesmen of whom we have record. Moreover, he was an excellent jurist. We of the bar realize, indeed, how great a jurist he was. It was my privilege to appear before the Privy Council on the first and,
I think, the only occasion on which he sat on the judicial committee, and although he was then past the age of seventy and had not practised law for a quarter of a century he showed an ability to catch the point at issue in the case which was the marvei and admiration of those present in the court.
The empire has indeed lost a renowned citizen-a citizen who was great in no ordinary sense of the word. He has passed from us full of honours as well as of years, and he has left behind him a priceless legacy. Differing with him, though we may, and with his opinions and his ideas of statecraft and of our common obligation to the union, the fact remains that his life will always be an inspiration to the younger men of the British Empire, and his utterances as recorded will be a fountain from which all may draw knowledge in the years to come. I do not think Lord Asquith was ever better than when, on an occasion such as this, he had to deplore the passing of a great colleague. Who can recall without emotion his noble tribute to Alfred Lyttleton? Who that speaks our tongue can but be thrilled at reading what he said concerning his great Prime Minister, Campbell-Bannerman? Who can study his

Pensions and Soldier Problems
speeches in relation to the English Bible, or the words with which he greeted his old colleagues when he went down to receive a testimonial from the members of the bar, without revering the man? Who can read all these and not be moved? I should like to place on record words which I think Lord Asquith himself would possibly have used on such an occasion as this, words from the poet who was peculiarly beloved by him-Wordsworth :
Still glides the Stream, and shall for ever glide;
The Form remains, the Function never dies; While we, the brave, the mighty, and the wise,	_
We, Men, who in our morn of youth defied The elements, must vanish;be it so!
Enough, if something from our hands have power
To live, and act, and serve the future hour; And if, as toward the silent tomb we go, Through love, through hope, and faith s transcendent dower,
We feel that we are greater than we know. Mr. ROBERT GARDINER (Acadia):	I
desire to join with the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and the leader of the opposition (Mr. Bennett), as well as with hon. members of the house generally, in paying tribute to the late Earl of Oxford and Asquith. The late earl, I believe, will be best remembered by the public as Herbert Henry Asquith. It is quite true he had a distinguished career at the bar, but it is not by reason of that fact that he will live in the minds and hearts of the citizens of this great commonwealth of nations. His memory will survive in the record he has left behind in his parliamentary career. It was in that field that he came before the public eye to the greatest extent and consequently we shall always look upon him as one of the greatest servants of the empire. As the leader of the opposition 'has properly observed, Lord Asquith occupied many high offices. But after all, Mr. Speaker, it is not the occupancy of a high position that is the determining factor in keeping green the memory of a distinguished statesman; it is what he accomplishes while he holds office. I am sure that the people of Great Britain, in common with those of other rations that go to constitute the British commonwealth, will remember the late earl more for his social legislation than probably for any other reason. It was he that broke the veto power of the House of Lords; it was he that introduced old age pensions into Great Britain; it was he that stood firmly behind every social measure that was calculated to ameliorate the conditions of the masses of Great Britain. I am satisfied that notwithstanding what he accomplished in the
sphere of jurisprudence, however highly we may regard him as a jurist, in the minds and hearts of the people of the old country he will be remembered as one who devoted himself to the interests of the common people.
I therefore take this opportunity, on behalf of the group whom I represent in this corner of the house, of joining with hon. gentlemen in expressing our sincere regrets to the bereaved wife and relatives of the late Earl of Oxford and Asquith.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 40, to incorporate the British Empire Assurance	Company.-Mr.	Edwards
(Ottawa).
Bill No. 41, respecting The Imperial Guarantee and Accident Insurance Company of Canada.-Mr. Edwards (Ottawa).
Bill No. 42, to incorporate The Port Huron and Sarnia Bridge Company.-Mr. Odette.
Bill No. 43, respecting the Bell Telephone Company of Canada.-Mr. Edwards (Ottawa).


Hon. J. H. KING (Kootenay, Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment) moved:: That all matters connected with pensions and returned soldiers' problems be referred to a special committee consisting of:
Messrs: Adshead, Arthurs, Black (Yukon), Clark, Fiset (Sir Eugene), Gershaw, Hepburn, Ilsley. McLean (Melfort), McGibbon, McPherson, MacLaren, Power, Ross (Kingston), Sanderson, Speakman, Thorson,


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon, W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister): It usually happens that after the various committees have been struck there is a desire on the part of some members to have their names placed on committees other than those on which they originally appeared. There are, therefore, usually some substitutions and additions. I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) that the changes now proposed be approved by the house:
That the name of Mr. Delisle be added to the select standing committee on marine and fisheries \
That the name of Mr. Jenkins be added to the select standing committee on industrial and international relations;
That the name of Mr. Lacombe be added to the select standing committee on official report of debates;	,	,	.
That the name of Mr. Bowman and also the name of Mr. Boucher be substituted for those
Questions
[Stage Direction]
of Mr. Sanderson and Mr. Bouchard on the select standing committee on mines, forests and waters;
That the name of Mr. Sanderson be substituted for that of Mr. McMillan on the select standing committee on banking and commerce;
That the name of Mr. Vallance be substituted for that of Mr. McIntosh on the select standing committee on miscellaneous private bills;
That the name of Mr. Young (M^eyburn) be substituted for that of Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw) on the select standing committee on official report of debates;
That the name of Mr. Ross (Moose Jaw) be substituted for that of IVIr. Young (M^eyburn) on the sdeet standing committee on agriculture and colonization;
That the name of Mr. St. Pere be substituted tor that of Mr. Auger on the select standing committee on industrial and international relations:
That the name of Mr. Fansher (East Lamb-ton), also the name of Mr. McIntosh, also the name ot Mr. St. Pere, also the name of Mr Sanderson, and also the name of Mr. Young 1 Saskatoon) be substituted for those of Mr Fansher (Last Mountain), Mr. Vallance, Mr! Morin (Bagot), Mr. MacLean (Prince) and Mr. i oung on the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.
Mr. BOYS:: If the Prime Minister has no objection, I should be exceedingly glad if he would permit my name to be taken from the public accounts committee and placed on the committee on private bills. I have spoken to the hon. member for Peterborough (Mr. Peck), and he is agreeable to being placed on the public accounts committee in my stead.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Possibly it
might be understood that the change will be made.


Mr. SPEAKER:: The clerk will make the change.
Motion as amended1 agreed to.



BANK ACT AMENDMENT


[Stage Direction]
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Toronto Northwest) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 44, to amend the Bank Act.
Some hon, MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. CHURCH:: This bill is to restore the provision in the act that agreements for mergers of banks shall have the approval and sanction of parliament, instead of having the sanction merely of the governor general in council and the Minister of Finance.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



HANSARD-TRANSLATION OP FRENCH SPEECHES

Mr. CAMPBELL:: 1.	What is the policy of Hansard with regard to the translation into English of speeches delivered in the House of Commons m the French language?
2.	Is the English translation of all such speeches supposed to appear in the unrevised edition of Hansard?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The policy of Hansard is in accordance with a resolution adopted by the House of Commons on March 9, 1921, to the following effect:

This house is of the opinion that the speeches delivered in French should be immediately translated and published; that the government should at once instruct the translators and the king's printer to publish every Monday, during the session a special sheet of Hansard containing the translation into English of all the speeches which have been delivered in French the preceding week.
2.	Yes; in, a supplement to the issue of the Monday follbwing the delivery of speeches in the French language.



BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT AND MARITIME SUBSIDIES

Mr. CAHAN:: In view of the terms of the address passed by the Senate and Commons of Canada, dated April 26,	1907, and of the British North
America Act 1907 (7 Edward VII, c. 11), is it the intention of the government to procure an additional amendment to the British North America Act to authorize the payment to the provinces of the additional grants of subsidies made or to be made by the government of Canada in compliance in whole or in part with the recommendation of the Duncan report?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As announced in the speech from, the throne, it has been decided, pending a complete revision of the financial arrangements as contemplated by the Duncan report, to recommend the continuance of the money grants made at the last session. For the present, these grants are temporary. If, as a result of a complete revision of the financial arrangements between the Dominion government and the provinces, the present or other grants should be made permanent, it is the intention of the government to procure an additional amendment to the British North America Act in conformity with the policy adopted in 1907.



CUSTOMS AND EXCISE REVENUE AT BERTHIER

Mr. GERVAIS:: 



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)
[Mr. Mackenzie King.)
What is the total amount collected by the Department of National Revenue at the customs and excise sub-port of Berthier for the year 1927; (a) on excise duties; (b) on customs duties?

Questions
['1.\tJuly 11, 1914.\n2.\t$17,000.', '4S2\nQuestions', '3.\tPart of site (100 feet by 165 feet) to St. James presbyterian church for $3,300 and remainder of site (124 feet by 165 feet) to Geo L. Brenton for $4,500.\n4,\t5 and 6. Answered by No. 3.']
Mr. EULER:: Customs duties, $25,433.68;
excise taxes, $544,815.92; excise duties, $537.34.



Mr. KENNEDY:: What were the number of homestead entries in (a) Grande Prairie land district, (b) Peace river land district, in each of the years 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926 and 1927?


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: Fiscal year	Grande Prairie	Peace Riverending 31st March	Land District	Land District1921 .. .	
548	6711922 .. .	
312	4621923 .. .	
172	2861924 .. .	
94	1421925 .. .	
92	1371926 .. .	
Ill	2051927 .. .	
193	251


GRAIN SHIPMENTS
Mr. COWAN:: 1.	What was the total number of bushels of grain handled through the port of Vancouver in each of the years 1926 and 1927?
2.	What was the total number of bushels of grain shipped from Port Arthur and Fort William during each of the seasons of navigation 1926 and 1927?
3.	What	was	the	total	amount	of	grain
handled at Port Colborne during each of the seasons 1926 and 1927?
4.	What	was	the	total	amount	of	grain
shipped from the port of Montreal during each of the seasons 1926 and 1927?
5.	Is there any record available of the amount of Canadian grain shipped via Erie canal from Buffalo to New York? If so, what amount was shipped in each of the seasons 1926 and 1927?
6.	What amount of United States grain was handled through the port of Montreal during the seasons of 1926 and 1927?


Mr. MALCOLM:: 1.	Calendar year-
1926 : 52,494,615; 1927: 50,847,482.
2.	Season of navigation

1926: 298,860,493; 1927: 284,172,722.
3.	1926: 93,762,003; 1927: 110,166,303.
4.	1926: 138,635,858; 1927: 197,522,230.
5.	Not available.
6.	1926 : 38,101,582 bushels; 1927 : 96,239,783
bushels.


GRANTS TO EXPERIMENTAL FARMS
Mr. COWAN:: 1.	What support or aid, financial or otherwise, does the Department of Agriculture make to the experimental farm in the district of Thunder bay ?
2.	What was the amount of grant or aid, if any, in 1926 and in 1927?


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	There is no federal experimental farm in the district of Thunder Bay.
2.	Nil.


NEW BRUNSWICK GEOLOGICAL SURVEY
Mr. MacLAREN:: 1.	Has a detailed geological survey of New Brunswick been made during the years 1926 and 1927?
2.	If so, (a) to what extent has the survey extended; (b) what was the number of persons so engaged; (c) what time was devoted to such work?


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: 1.	The detailed geological survey of New Brunswick was continued during the seasons of 1926 and 1927.
2.	(a) In 1926 geological survey of about 400 square miles east of St. John completed. Topographical survey of an area of 400 square miles (partly in Quebec) on the bay of Chaleur continued. Investigations made of various mineral occurences and peat bogs.
In 1927 a topographical survey of 400 square miles on bay of Chaleur completed. Hydrographic survey of Chamcook lake and vicinity completed. Systematic examination made of occurrences of manganese and various other mineral deposits examined.
(b)	In 1926, eight; in 1927, twelve.
(c)	In 1926, 455 days; in 1927, 896 days.
It should be understood that the detailed
geological survey of New Brunswick will require many years for completion. It has been in progress for a good many years previous to 1926. Geological investigation is being preceded by a topographical survey and the results of topographical and geological work will take the form of a series of maps on a scale of 1 inch to 1 mile, each sheet representing an area 15 degrees of latitude by 30 degrees of longitude.


TRURO, N.S., POST OFFICE SITE
Mr. MacNUTT:: 1.	On what date was a lot in the town of Truro, Nova Scotia, purchased for a new post office site?
2.	What price was paid for said lot?
3.	To whom was said lot sold?
4.	What proportion, if any, of original lot was sold for church building purposes?
5.	Who was purchaser of remaining portion of lot?
6.	What price was paid by each of the two buyers ?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING (for the Minister of Public Works):: 1.	July 11, 1914.
2.	$17,000.

4S2
Questions

3.	Part of site (100 feet by 165 feet) to St. James presbyterian church for $3,300 and remainder of site (124 feet by 165 feet) to Geo L. Brenton for $4,500.
4,	5 and 6. Answered by No. 3.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. SPEAKMAN:: 1.	How many applications have been received during the past year for revaluation of lands held by soldier settlers under the provisions of the Soldier Settlement Land Act and its amendments: (a) total number; (b) by provinces?
2.	How many eases, if any, have been the subject of appeal to the Exchequer Court of Canada: (a) total number; (b) by provinces?
3.	How many cases have been finally adjusted: (a) total number; (b) by provinces?
4.	What is the average percentage of reduction made in such cases: (a) total percentage; (b) by provinces?


NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL
Mr. KENNEDY:: 1.	Who are the officers of the National Research Council of Canada?
2.	What sums of money have been voted for this body in each year since its organization?
3.	What questions or matters has the research council under investigation?
4.	What reports are available as to its work?



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, orders in council, reports and all other documents exchanged between the government of Canada and the government of Alberta since the last session of parliament, relating to the natural resources question;
And also relating to the return of the natural resources of Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and British Columbia to those provinces by the Dominion.



GRAIN EXCHANGE BUILDING-FORT WILLIAM

Mr. COWAN:: For a copy of the lease existing between the government or any department thereof, and the Grain Exchange Company, Fort William, for the premises occupied in grain exchange building, Fort William. Also return showing a statement of the total cost to the department per annum for the use of the said premises.



KAMSACK, SASK. POSTMASTERSHIP

Mr. CAMPBELL:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the dismissal of Alex. Wilson from the position of postmaster at Kamsack, Saskatchewan, and also in connection with the appointment of his successor.
fMr. Mackenzie King.)



PAYMENTS FOR LEGAL SERVICES

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: For a return showing the disposition of the $485,957.06 paid for legal services for the year .1926-27 according to Auditor General's report, giving the names of the lawyers or law firms and amount paid in each ease.



DROBOT, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the dismissal of John Stinka from the position of postmaster at Drobot, Saskatchewan, and also all similar papers in connection with the appointment of his successor.



SHEIIO, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the dismissal of C. J. Sorrell from the position of postmaster at Sheho; and also a copy of similar papers in connection with the appointment of his successor.



THE MEXICAN SITUATION

Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams and orders in council between the government of Mexico or Mexican railways, and the government of Canada or the Canadian National Railways, asking for the loan of Sir Henry Thornton, president of the Canadian National Railways, to report on the railways situation in Mexico;
And also for all correspondence between the government of Canada and any person or persons objecting to the aforesaid and objecting to the utterances and letters of the Mexican consul at Toronto, L. Medina Barron, on the same subject.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to draw attention to one feature of this motion. It asks for two sets of correspondence, one relating to the visit of Sir Henry Thornton to Mexico, and the other to certain utterances by the Mexican consul in Toronto. The rules provide that papers should be called for on one subject at a time. If my hon. friend is agreeable to amend his resolution so as to leave out the second paragraph, then so far as the first paragraph is concerned, the government will have no objection to bringing down all the official correspondence relating to Sir Henry Thornton's visit to Mexico. Regarding the second part of his motion, I would like to say to my hon. friend and to the house that there is a considerable amount of correspondence which has come to the government from different persons throughout Canada, some of them objecting to the utterances of the Mexican consul referred to in

The Mexican Situation
the resolution, others commending them. I do not think it would be in the public interest to bring down that correspondence. A great deal of it is very extreme in its phraseology. Some of it appears to have been written only for the purpose of provoking controversy. I fail to see wherein its production can do any possible good, and I do see wherein it might do a great deal of harm, not only within the confines of our Dominion, but in international relations as well. I hope sincerely that my hon. friend will be content to have the house receive the correspondence relating to the visit of Sir Henry Thornton to Mexico and drop the other part of the motion.


Thomas Langton Church: I have no objection if the Prime Minister wishes to have the first and second paragraphs divided. The first part of the question is a proper one. It is a publicly owned road and we should find out who are these people who are asking to have Sir Henry Thornton sent to Mexico without the authority of parliament, and should have full information as to the public policy involved. The second clause of the resolution speaks for itself. A private member on the government side gave notice of this matter and then dropped it. My motion raises a great public question of status and our relations with a friendly country-Mexico-and the rights and prerogatives of consuls within our borders-also an important international problem. I object to withdrawing this motion and will not do so. It is in order to ask the government for all these public papers. They are not private papers, but were received on a matter of government policy. If the Prime Minister wishes to do so, let him take the responsibility of voting my motion down.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If I may interject a word, Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask for your ruling as to the point I raised at the outset with respect to the motion.


Hewitt Bostock: The motion, in my opinion, should be divided. The first paragraph should be the subject of one motion and the second, paragraph the subject of another motion, because the one does not flow from the other. If the hon. gentleman chooses he may place another motion on the order paper dealing with the subject mentioned in the second paragraph.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If the proceeding would be regular, Mr. Speaker, I should have no objection to having the two questions put immediately if my hon. friend 56103-31J
wishes, or rather let the first paragraph be carried now and divide the house if need be on the second.


Hewitt Bostock: I think the hon. gentleman who moved this motion should be given the opportunity of converting the second paragraph into a motion which might appear on the order paper at a subsequent sitting of the house.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would move an amendment that the second paragraph of the hon. member's motion be struck out, and that the motion as amended be adopted.


Hewitt Bostock: Mr. Mackenzie King
moves in amendment, seconded by Mr. Lapointe:
That the second paragraph of the motion be struck out.


Thomas Langton Church: I rise to a point of order. Both paragraphs conform strictly to the rules of the house. Canada wants some action taken on this particular question. The motion raises a great public principle. I object to the second part of this motion -being ruled out. I think the motion is in order, and that it is not permissible to amend it in the way proposed.


Hewitt Bostock: In my humble judgment
any motion which is presented to the house can be amended. The question now is on the amendment.


Mr. BENNETT:: It seems to me that before the question is put there should be a clear understanding as to what the issue is. The hon. member for Toronto Northwest moved a notice of -motion, and the right hon. the Prime Minister raised a point of order. He said that he did not think that this was a proper motion and that the rules of the house require that a motion for papers should cover only one subject. Your Honour, in my opinion quite properly, ruled that the motion was a double motion, and therefore the only portion of it that was now being dealt with was the first portion. The other portion dealing with another matter should be placed on the order paper by the hon. member at a later date if he so desired. That is my understanding of the matter- Therefore there can be no amendment in any sense in view of the ruling of the Chair.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am simply
trying to facilitate my hon. friend's desire to get a part of this information. He can have it immediately if he is agreeable to having his motion amended, and that is all my amendment contemplates. The first part of his motion would be perfectly regular, and if the
Great Lakes Shipping

hon. member wishes'subsequently to introduce another motion covering the second portion of his resolution we will be prepared to consider that when the time comes.


Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Mr. Speaker, if you accept an amendment from the Prime Minister to strike out the second part of this notice of motion I ask you how that particular matter can be reintroduced.


Hewitt Bostock: My ruling, if so it can
be called, was that the second part of the motion does not flow from the other part. The second part could be made the subject of a second motion to be placed on the order paper. That is the position I took. Now let me read to the house what Beauchesne says under standing order 47, paragraph 379:
A motion which contains two or more distinct propositions may be divided so that the sense of the house may be taken on each separately.
I think the house may accept the first paragraph of the motion, and that the hon. member should be given the opportunity of moving another resolution based on the second paragraph. Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion as amended?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Thomas Langton Church: Lost.


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. member is
given the opportunity of making the second paragraph of his resolution the subject of another motion. I declare the motion carried.


Thomas Langton Church: I will amend the second
part accordingly for to-morrow.
Motion as amended agreed to.



GREAT LAKES SHIPPING

Thomas Langton Church: For a copy of all correspondence, reports, orders in council and all other papers asking for the suspension of the coastal shipping laws on the great lakes.
2.	For a return showing the list of bulk freighters on the great lakes, Canadian register by the shipping lists, and number of days during the navigation season out of commission of each ship because of lack of cargoes.
3.	For a return of a copy of all papers, memoranda and correspondence from the Master and Mates Association, or from Captain William Stitt, their secretary, or from the National Association of Marine Engineers or other marine men, asking for a modern system of life saving stations, beacon lights, modern equipment, use of air craft, ice crushing tugs, and other aids to navigation on the great lakes to assist mariners.


Mr. ARTHURS:: I would suggest that
this resolution is rather complicated and that
IMr. Mackenzie King.]
it involves various shipping matters, so that it is in character a good deal like the previous one.


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the
house to adopt the motion?


Hon. JAMES MALCOLM (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I would suggest that the information called for by the second part of the motion can only be obtained from shipowners or their officers. The government cannot furnish that information because it has no record of the subject.


Thomas Langton Church: I think it would be quite easy for the government, through their officials to get the information called for.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, February 13, consideration of t'he proposed motion of Mr. Kaiser:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government of the Dominion of Canada should immediately initiate such measures and take such other steps as may be necessary to bring about the utilization and transport of our vast deposits of lignite and bituminous coal, by their conversion into crude oil and other valuable commodities of every day life.
Mr. T. E. KAISER (Ontario):: Mr. Speaker, when I was interrupted on Monday night by the application of the eleven o'clock rule, I was about to discuss the second, part of my resolution as to what we might expect the government to do, and do immediately, in accordance with the resolution. I would suggest in the first place that the government obtain a few hundred copies of the original report as delivered by Frederick Bergius in Pittsburgh, in order that every member., of the House of Commons and others who are interested in this subject might receive some basic information.
The second suggestion I have to offer is this, that the government should endeavour . to arrange with the university of Birmingham, where there are two Professors, Professor Skinner and Professor Graham, who have the technique and the equipment, for carrying on investigational work and the analysis of coal such as I have suggested. These gentlemen have given reports in regard to hundreds of analyses of hundreds of varieties of coal for England and the British Empire and I have under my hand one report of their Rinding in regard to coal shale from Australia. They have found some coals that lend them-

Lignite Coal-Mr. Kaiser
selves very readily to this process; they have found other specimens which are not in that class. At the beginning of this undertaking it is necessary for us to know whether the coals we possess in the Dominion of Canada, both in Nova Scotia and Alberta, are of such a character as will lend themselves to the process under discussion. This can be discovered only by our having analyses made by men with the requisite equipment who will give us the results. I find that these university professors, in order to carry out this work, demand that a specimen of one hundred pounds each be sent to them. If we were to send them two or three hundred specimens of coal of one hundred pounds each, this would be inexpensive and we would be able to get a great deal of information. Along with that I would ask the government to have Doctor Tory select a few of the young men of our country, who have devoted a large portion of their lives to subjects of this kind, who would go to England and be paid for their time in order that they might equip themselves scientifically and technically for the solution of this and other problems which confront Canada.
The next thing that I would suggest is that we should endeavour, if possible, to get men like Shatwell, Graham, or Skinner in the old country who, in the summer, exchange lectures with professors in other universities, to come to the university of Saskatoon and there set up an equipment for the analysis of this coal so that they may give us the result of their findings in that way.
I should like to refer for a few moments to statements made by some of the great-men of this country and of England in regard to what I have been discussing. In matters of this kind I am guided, as the house should be guided, only by the opinion of men who are in a position to give expert advice and whose statements may be relied upon. In the first place I would draw the attention of the house to a few words contained in the report of Professor Graham and Professor Skinner, who are at the head of the mining research laboratory of the university of Birmingham and who have analyzed hundreds of specimens of coal for the purpose of ascertaining what can be produced under the Bergius process. Their finding is this:
With coals of the class referred to above, the process could possibly be worked at the present , time with profit. The annual output of such coals is sufficient to supply the greater bulk of the present day fuel oil requirements of this country.
I would draw attention also to the finding of Mr. II. G. Shatwell who was sent by
the British coal syndicate to the Bergius plants in Germany to investigate and to come back to the British government and the British syndicate with a report of what he had discovered. The details of the report are tremendous and I wish to draw the attention of the house to the conclusion of this scientific gentleman. He states:
The system of hydrogenation proposed by Bergius. therefore, dispensing as it does with catalysts and employing reactants which in no sense of the word are pure and are not even chemical entities, opens up a new avenue both for scientific research and for commercial exploitations; and there is little question that its adoption on a large scale is only a matter of time.
Following that up let me give the house an opinion taken from the London Times of December, 1927, of Mr. Frank Hodges, who will tell us who he is. Mr. Hodges says:
As a member of the national fuel and power committee I am able to review the whole range of research and achievement of both our engineers and our chemists. I can therefore say that steam-raising from pulverized coal has passed into conventional and profitable use. It will soon pass from use on land to use on the high seas.
Next year we shall see commercial plants in operation in Britain which will make a frontal attack upon the system of imports of fuel in the form of oil from foreign countries whilst our own men suffer acute poverty and distress. We shall witness the production of oil from coal of such quality and constituents as to result in Diesel oil, lubricating oil, and fuel oil being made available from the much-despised "black diamond".
Such is the opinion of eminent scientists in England and abroad.
Let us come now a little closer home. We have in the employ of this government a gentleman whose views on questions such as this command the respect of the whole people of Canada; I refer to Dr. Adam Shortt. I assume that he at least knows what he is talking about, and in addressing a meeting in my city on the 5th of December last he said:
The progress of science is as rapid as it is astonishing. In Germany particularly processes for extracting gasoline from lignite coal are making rapid strides. In the past 12 months they have manufactured 100,000 tons of gasoline by these new methods and are now equipped to extract 400,000 tons yr the next 18 months. The price is being reduced and there is no predicting how far it is yet to the bottom.
What does this mean but wonderful progress for the Canadian west? There are enormous quantities of lignite in Alberta. So far it cannot be transported economically because it deteriorates in quality after mining so that a binder has to be used.
But if it can be turned to gasoline and its by-products used, the fuel problem of Canada will be solved.
Lignite Coal-Mr. Kaiser

I ask the people of Canada, if they feel that I am not as conversant with this subject as I should be, to pay attention at least to the statements of men of such high standing as I have quoted.
There is one other point. In the Bergius process it has been found that the great expense is in the production of hydrogen. After this question came uip, a number of men in the city of Toronto undertook to see what could be done in that regard, and a gentleman by the name of Stewart announced that he had just completed a process by which the cost of producing hydrogen could be reduced by over fifty per cent, and the very next day Professor McLennan of Toronto university, a gentleman to whom we pay three or four thousand dollars a year, said that he had looked into this man's process and found that it was absolutely correct. Now if Canadian genius has been able to devise a process whereby the cost of producing hydrogen is reduced by over fifty per cent, what may not happen in the next few years in connection with the problem of untilizing in a practical manner our vast deposits of lignite and bituminous coal? I believe that the genius of this country is equal to that of any other country in the world. When I think of the wonderful advances that have been made in this country, of those vast prairies which at one time looked as dead to me as the lignite coals of Alberta, when I remember that it was the genius of Professor Saunders that evolved a new type of wheat, a discovery that laid the foundation of the great wealth of those prairie provinces to-day, I regret as a Canadian, as I did last summer when I went across Canada from the Atlantic to the Pacific and viewed many of the monuments to the soldiers and eminent men in the history of this Dominion, that right at the gateway to the prairies there is not erected a monument to the memory of Professor Saunders. I think it would be very fitting to commemorate his work in that way, to show to the world that there are victories of peace that are greater than the conquests of war. I believe that we are just awaiting such touches as have already come to us to make these lignites give up *their secret, to the immense benefit of the people of Canada and the people of the whole world. We are simply the trustees for this tremendously valuable asset, and we shall be judged by future generations by the manner in which we discharge our trust. We should enlist the brains and energy and enterprize of the people of Canada to help solve such problems as these, and I believe that we are on the verge of a
FMr. Kaiser.]
complete solution not only of this question but also of our fuel problem in central Canada.
My time is about up. I propose to leave this matter absolutely in the hands of the government. I w-as glad to know that the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) on his trip to Europe last summer did make an investigation into this question, and I hope he will give the house the benefit of whatever he has learned in that regard. I did see one statement that he made at the time, and that was that the department of the government was equipped and ready to handle this question. It is not so equipped, Mr. Speaker, but it should be equipped, and should look into this problem in a sensible way. Let us investigate this question and make sure we are right before committing ourselves to a large investment, and then I believe that future generations will bless us for having given these great questions the study they deserve.


Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Albemi):: With as much as I could catch of what the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Kaiser) said, I have no fault to find. As far as I could make out, his arguments were sound and reasonable. But that is far more than can be said for his resolution when you examine it. I would like to draw the attention of the government to what they are committing themselves if this resolution passes. Of course, if this resolution is only to be used as a basis for debate and is going to be withdrawn, no harm will be done; but this is what we are asked to commit ourselves to:
The government of the Dominion of Canada should immediately initiate such measures and take such other steps as may be necessary-
That is wide:
-to bring about the utilization and transport-
Another big order:
-of our vast deposits of lignite and bituminous coal-
It is the following to which I wish particularly to draw attention:
-by their conversion into crude oil and other valuable commodities of every-day life.
I am not chemist enough to know whether it is chemically possible to produce real crude oil out of coal. I do not think so. Undoubtedly you can produce some kind of oil, but under this resolution the government is to be compelled to produce crude oil by any means and at any cost. It is a well-known fact that you can obtain gold from salt water; but that it is not economically possible.
FEBRUARY 15, 1928	4S7
Lignite Coal-Mr. Hocken
There are many other things, especially in the chemical world, that you can do, but which cannot be done on a commercial basis because the cost is too great. There is no doubt that some form of oil, and particularly gas, not gasoline, but commercial gas, can be obtained from coal. That is an. admitted chemical fact to-day, but the question is, can what is asked here be done on a profitable basis, and should we commit the government to it regardless of the cost of transport or anything else? That seems to me an exceedingly big order indeed. It is the mandatory character of the resolution that I am afraid of.
Last summer there was a meeting in British Columbia of the institute of mining and metallurgical engineers of Canada. We had the advantage there of some very able addresses by the most capable men who had studied this subject. I was keenly interested in it because I had thought to find in that method -of changing coal into gasoline or some further product the solution of our troubles arising from depleted markets for the product of our coal mines in British Columbia. But it was unanimously agreed by that body of capable technical men that at the present time it is economically impossible to apply the process in Canada- It has been done, I believe, with more or less commercial success in Germany. Possibly the coal there is of a character that is very easily and cheaply mined; possibly the supplies of natural crude oil are somewhat remote; possibly low labour costs may have something to do with it. But I am inclined to think the success achieved there is due principally to the fact that it is comparatively easy to have access to some large city Where there is a market for the supply of gas, because it has not yet been found possible to make gasoline out of coal except at an enormous cost. Therefore you can imagine what an absurd solution of our coal troubles it is to tell us we should turn our coal into gas at enormous loss when in our remote part of the country there is no market for the product close at hand and only a very limited market at a distance. I believe that when the system of what is called low temperature-carbonization is perfected it may be passible to make gasoline out of coal, but to-day it cannot be done-
Now, the men who were at the meeting to which I have referred were not carried away by local conditions at all. They were looking into the matter from a strictly scientific and technical standpoint, and they advised those of us who were interested in the coal mines and their future to devote our energies to the
production and use of pulverized coal. I have a resolution on the order paper, No. 18, under which I will deal with that aspect of the problem.
Those technical men also gave us this further advice. They suggested that neither provincially nor federally should we embark on any huge expenditures in scientific research along these lines only in the course perhaps of five or ten years to arrive at the same solution as that already reached in Europe. In other words, they were opposed to the idea of the astronomer, I think in Italy, who said that he was going to make fresh discoveries in astronomy, but he was not going to begin where the old scientists had left off, he was going to find out everything for himself; but after a lifetime devoted to astronomical research he died before discovering that the earth is round. The same principle should guide us here. Instead of going to enormous expenditure in this young country to build up information on the subject from the beginning, those technical men recommended that we should select half a dozen competent chemists, skilled men in their particular line, and send them abroad to acquire in the colleges and schools and the research institutes of Great Britain and the continent the very latest information along these lines, because scientific information generally is free to the world, and it could thus be obtained at very much less cost and in a much more practical and immediate form.
As I have said, I will deal with the matter of pulverized coal under my own resolution, but I should like again to point out that, while the principle of the resolution is right, if the government allows this motion to pass in its entirety it will be committing the country to a very serious expenditure along lines which I do not think desirable.


Mr. H. C. HOCKEN (Toronto West Centre):: Mr. Speaker, it appears to me that
the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill) is somewhat hypercritical of this resolution. If I understand the purpose of it, it is to persuade the government to make a reasonable investigation to discover whether our great lignite deposits can be applied to commercial uses. My hon. friend analyzes the resolution and picks out some phrases from which he concludes that what is proposed is impossible, and he disposes of it with a sweep of the hand. I do not think that is a reasonable way of treating the resolution. It may be that we will not be able to get gas or anything else from these lignite deposits; but, Sir, I submit that if any other progressive nation, Germany, for example,
48S

Lignite Coal-Mr. Woodsworth
had similar deposits, it would not hesitate to spend what was necessary to discover whether they could be applied to commercial uses.


An hon. MEMBER:: Germany is already
doing it.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Then that is an added
reason why we should do it.


An hon. MEMBER:: Quite right.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I think the Minister of
the Interior (Mr. Stewart) will not be deterred from giving this resolution his support by the summary manner in which the hon. member for Comox-Alberni would dispose of it. It seems to me that the member for Ontario (Mr. Kaiser) has introduced something that is well worthy the consideration of the government. This is one of our natural resources, just how valuable it is we do not know, but surely it is the part of wisdom for us to make inquiries and discover its value and how it can be developed.
I merely rose, Mr. Speaker, to express the hope that the Minister of the Interior will not be persuaded by my hon. friend from Comox-Alberni to deal with this resolution as he himself has dealt with it. This country has enormous resources, some of which we do not know very much about. I recall the time when the best geological experts said we would never find gold in northern Ontario, the rock strata not being of the right kind.


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: Or silver either.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: Still we have found some
gold there. We do not know what we may get opt of these lignite deposits until we investigate them and experiment under the best possible conditions.


Alan Webster Neill: But the resolution says that we "must" do these things.


An hon. MEMBER:: Modify it.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I do not think the government would be well advised to spend the whole national revenue on the measures proposed by the mover of the resolution, but it should do what is necessary to discover how these lignite deposits can be developed in the best interests of the Dominion.


Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):: I rise, Mr. Speaker, to add a word
in support of this resolution. It may be as the member for Comox-Alberni has suggested, better phrasing might have been chosen; but it would be comparatively easy to amend the resolution to read, that the government should investigate the feasibility of what is proposed.


Alan Webster Neill: Hear, hear.


James Shaver Woodsworth: If those words were inserted I think they would meet the objection of the hon. member. But altogether aside from the exact form of the resolution, it seems to me that the hon. member for Ontario has made out a very strong case indeed for a careful investigation by the government of the utilization of our lignite and bituminous coal by conversion into crude oil and other commodities. From what little reading I have done along this line I have come to the conclusion that there is a great deal in what the mover of the resolution has already said, and, I repeat, I think he has presented a very strong case.
I have often thought that instead of going so much into the question of railway rates in searching for a solution of our coal problem, we ought rather to look in the direction proposed by the hon. member. Aside from this particular question, I have been tremendously impressed by the emphasis that the hon. gentleman has placed upon the need of scientific investigation with regard to our natural resources and their development. I think that we should have the resolution framed in such a manner as to make it unanimously acceptable to the house.


Charles A. Stewart: I need hardly assure the
house that I am as much interested in the resolution submitted to-day as I was in that proposed by the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) with reference to scientific and industrial research. Indeed, they go pretty much hand in hand. I have, however, this additional interest in the present resolution, that it was my privilege this summer to make a special investigation of the very matter herein proposed. Part of my mission to the continent this year had a direct, bearing on this subject, apart from a rather interesting week or two which I spent at Geneva listening to the deliberations of the delegates assembled in the Leauge of Nations. And in passing, Mr. Speaker, may I observe that the discussions there were exceedingly interesting and that I am confident, after that visit, that a great deal of good will result from, the efforts of the league. However, I do not propose to say anything in that regard to-day. What I want particularly to discuss now is that aspect of my mission which was of greatest interest to me because of the enthusiasm it created, especially in view of the report referred to by the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Kaiser)-the report of Dr. Bergius to the convention of scientific experts at Pittsburgh respecting the liquefaction of coal.

Lignite Coal-Mr, Stewart (Edmonton)
I will not go so far as my hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woods-worth) and suggest that we can immediately do something in this direction to obviate the necessity of moving our coal. We shall still be obliged to consider rates in order if possible to bring coal from the west and the east to central Canada. But I do affirm that there are unlimited possibilities in at least three or four of these experiments that are being carried on. I do not suggest for a moment that they have yet emerged from the experimental stage, notwithstanding the fact that in Germany they have spent a great deal of money. As my hon. friend has well said, Dr. Bergius has devoted over fifteen years of his life to experimentation in this important field with German coal and has attained a very appreciable degree of success. The experiment is being conducted on a large scale at Leuna, where there are special facilities for its completion on a commercial basis. Indeed, scientific research there has at its disposal every aid that is humanly possible. An almost innumerable variety of things are being manufactured from coal, and one is amazed at the output of that huge plant which, at the time of my visit, employed 25.000 workmen. Through the courtesy of Dr. Streseman, whom I met at Geneva, I think it may be said that we who went from Canada were the first representatives of any nation who were admitted to the interior of that plant and shown its operations in detail. We had, therefore, a splendid opportunity to note exactly what was being done, and one was struck with the immensity of the work carried on as well as with the vast extent of experimentation. If I remember correctly there are 1,200 chemists employed in that institution alone. Every department has at its command the services of an expert chemist in the particular line in which it is engaged. Perhaps it is not important, but the fact is interesting at any rate, that they collect all the precious gems that come from the coal. My hon. friend expressed the opinion that we had no idea of the possibilities in a matter of. this kind, and I may tell him how astonished I was to discover that they were able to obtain gems for rings. I brought one home with me, recovered from the electrical ovens which were used in the operations elsewhere. The plant is peculiarly equipped for the production of oil. As my hon. friend knows, Germany requires at the present time something like 8,000,000 barrels of crude oil annually, and she is producing only 400,000.


Mr. McGIBBON:: Tons.
Mr. STEWART (Edmonton).:	Barrels i3
the information I have. It will be seen from this statement what an enormous quantity of oil must be imported into Germany every year. There they have a market of which none of us were aware.
I shall be delighted to meet my hon. friend's request not only for the distribution to members of this house of copies of Dr. Bergius' paper, but also for its wide publicity in Canada. Further, I shall be1 only too glad to recommend to Dr. Tory the desirability of our students studying abroad; and if the national research council will not consider the question I shall introduce an estimate to provide the necessary funds for the purpose. I am anxious to widen in every way possible the knowledge we have of this subject, which is of great importance to the country. My hon. friend was telling me1 the other day that for ten or twelve years he had been advocating, in season and out of season, scientific research in this direction, and I can assure him that the matter is one that is dear to my own heart. I should like to see every avenue of scientific research explored. It is well, however, to bear in mind, as the leader of the opposition remarked the other day, the advisability of avoiding as far as possible any overlapping of efforts. In six or eight plants that we visited in Germany, not all of- them engaged in liquefaction, some of them going in for low temperature carbonization, and in every one of ten or fifteen in Great Britain. I found samples of Alberta coal which had been submitted by various interested persons. I do not recall a single plant where experimental work was being done in -which we did not find samples of our own coal either from that western province or from Nova Scotia. In the very plant which I have been discussing we found samples. I would not limit to 100 pounds the coal that we should submit for testing purposes; I am willing to send it in ton lots at the expense of the federal government to any plant which is prepared to test it, and I am sure that the result will be beneficial not only to those directly interested but to the country at large.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I did not intend to suggest
that we should send only 100 pounds. I was merely pointing out that the university to which I referred asked that each sample consist of 100 pounds.


Charles A. Stewart: I understand that, but there need be no restrictions to the quantity that we send. The more we' send the better it will be. While in Germany I
490	COMMONS
Lignite Coal-Mr. Stewart (Edmonton)
had the pleasure of visiting Dr. Fischer's laboratory at Mulheim, where in my opinion there are tremendous possibilities. His work, however, is still only in the experimental stage, but I believe that his process will be cheaper than that of Dr. Bergius. Whether it will obtain the same results I do not know. And by the way, may I say that I had the very great pleasure of an hour with Dr. Bergius in his own home, and was generally received in Germany with the utmost courtesy. Much of what I saw I could not of course thoroughly understand, but as I had Dr. Camsell with me he was able to furnish the details and to supplement such knowledge as I did have.
We were greatly interested in low temperature carbonization, in connection with which there are about eight or ten processes in Germany, all of which undoubtedly give promise of success. You will be told of course by the inventor that there is no doubt about the success of the invention. But when you come to examine them minutely you will realize that they are not yet past the experimental stage. I am somewhat chary in this respect, because hon. gentlemen will remember that when I came here there were investigations proceeding at Bienfait, Saskatchewan, which had not got past the experimental stage, and we wasted about a million dollars without getting very much result, and I should like to know now where the break takes place between what is experimental and what can be done in a commercial way. Precaution should be taken in all work, whatever its value may be.


Peter McGibbon: Surely the minister does not expect to get dollar for dollar value at the outset?


Charles A. Stewart: No, but I think any scientific man will agree that while an experiment conducted on a small scale at first may be eminently successful, when it is tried in a commercial way many difficulties may be encountered. That is exactly what happened at Bienfait, and that is what I had in mind as a layman in looking at the various plants in operation in Germany. Some of them were still in progress. We know that carbonization can be carried on successfully under high temperature, and high temperature produces large quantities of gas and a low percentage of oil. What we want to do in Canada, so far as I understand the situation, is to discover a process that will produce a high grade fuel under low temperature and give off a small percentage of gas and a fairly large proportion of oil. That is what we keep constantly before us in looking over the

various experimental plants. I formed this conclusion after some days of investigation of the process which has been so successful under high temperature. The still process of treating the coal apparently gave better results than where the coal was stirred up in the process, as it is in many stages of passing through the plant.
May I say that one cannot visit Germany without being struck with the prevailing efficiency, despatch, and neatness; the modern character of the buildings they have constructed in connection with their plants, and the sanitary conditions that obtain. Everything points to efficiency of the highest order. Indeed I sometimes wonder whether we could present a like picture if we were to take visitors through our coal mining districts in Canada. I rather think we have a great deal to learn in that respect. I know something of the conditions in the coal mining areas in my own province; I have seen something of them in other parts of Canada, and they are not localities to which we would like to take distinguished visitors or scientists who come here. I saw a model town, ideal sanitary conditions, and there was adequate provision for education, medical attention and everything necessary to convenience and efficiency. I was told that no ordinary workman received more than the equivalent of $50 a month in our currency, nevertheless a great deal of attention is paid to the social welfare of the workmen. One instance struck me rather forcibly. In these modern days in Canada, and indeed I am afraid in other parts of the world, there is a distinct tendency toward what we call apartment house dwellings, and usually the individual Who has more than one or two children is not a very welcome tenant. To my amazement, at this huge plant no such distinction was made, the man who had the most children was given the most comfortable quarters. Not only that, but on the coming of every child the company presented the parents with a cradle and provided medical attention. I had my eyes opened, and I hope my experience will be a benefit in an administrative way. It did appear to me that mechanism was being brought to the highest state of efficiency, and perhaps they are going to mechanize the human family as well. In some respects things seemed to 'be carried beyond the bounds of reason, but I cannot help admiring the efficiency that was so evident everywhere.
We left Germany and proceeded to Great Britain. Through the courtesy of Dr. Lander of the British federal research station we visited many districts in England, chiefly hook-

Lignite Coal-Mr. Stewart (Edmonton)
ing into the possibility of low temperature carbonization. I am not going to admit that our good cousins across the ocean are one bit behind the Germans in what they know about low temperature carbonization. They have about one hundred and fifty processes, and all have splendid possibilities of development. We were advised to visit certain centres, and we did so and examined them minutely. Not all the conditions would be applicable to Canada, and in order to be sure I am going to send one of our best men to visit these centres with a view to determining the possibilities of the adoption of their methods at some of the principal points in Canada.
So far as the Bergius process is concerned, I was able to see in the research station at London what I was unable altogether to comprehend at Leuna in Germany-a perfect experimental plant so set up that any layman can see the whole business without the least difficulty. As my hon. friend nas said, the discovery of a cheaper hydrogen will go a long way toward cheapening that process, and I am very glad that one of our Canadians can claim to have the honour of making discoveries in that connection. May I say in passing that one is rather proud of the fact that working in many of the institutions you find bright young men, graduates of our universities. In the old land they are not missing anything in the way of the treatment of coal; and why? They have a pressing reason. One cannot live many weeks in London without realizing that something should be done in the matter of the treatment of coal. They have many of the same difficulties in connection with coal that we have. Every one of us will remember that ten or twelve years ago coal was used much more extensively than it is to-day on the Pacific coast, but that market is disappearing. Go to the Atlantic and you will find the ships plying there using oil. In this very city fuel oil has largely replaced coal; I venture to say that twenty per cent, or nearly that figure, of the domestic demands are being supplied to-day by fuel oil. In my own city of Edmonton where coal is mined, and where it formerly was used in our furnaces, nearly every individual is using natural gas from the field at Viking, eighty miles away. The coal market has been invaded from every'quarter. The same problem prevails in Germany, in England, in every coal-producing country in the world. When cheap petroleum becomes a thing of the past then coal will come into its own again.
The most interesting experiment I saw had relation to low temperature carbonization. I
do not know how it will work out, but at Birmingham a young student invented a process of coal treatment by high temperature steam. He tried it for a couple of years in an experimental way, and only last year was enabled to induce a hard headed Scotchman in Glasgow to put in a plant. When I was at Glasgow they were just putting fire under the furnaces to test it out. This may be one of the systems that will be very useful to the Canadian coal industry: it is free from all difficulty in the matter of gases.
Time will not permit of my giving a description of all that one could see on a trip of the kind, but I will make the prediction that within ten years there will be no raw fuel burned in Great Britain, it will all be treated. The ingredients of value will be extracted, and the residue will be a fuel that will be smokeless to a very great degree, thu3 obviating the difficulty they Lave to face from fogs in large centres like London.
My hon. friend spoke of the possibilities of burning pulverized fuel under pressure. I visited one of the admiralty stations in England and I was startled to find the great strides that had been made in connection with pulverized fuel. Vessels intended for service on- the Pacific and north Atlantic were being equipped with powdered fuel apparatus, and it was estimated that the saving in power would be about thirty per cent over that of oil. Wherever you go, therefore, scientific men are using their best endeavours so to transform coal by treatment that it will be the cheapest and most efficient agent for the production of power. While Dr. Bergius has the distinguished honour of having gone a very long way as leader in the field of liquefaction, there are many who are following him very closely.
My trip to the continent was a real inspiration to me. I picked up some information that I think will be of very great value to me, and I trust to the people of Canada, in the matter of the treatment of our coals. May I say further that without overlapping, because I deem that to be an important thing, the work being performed in Germany or in England-which will be made accessible to us, because they have given us that promise -we should use every endeavour to educate our men so that we may utilize this great natural resource of ours to the fullest extent.
I have not said a word about transportation, because that is scarcely appropriate here. I do not think the wording of my hon. friend's resolution is important, or whether he presses it or not, but it is important that we should educate the public mind of Canada in secur-
Lignite Coal-Mr. Spence

ing the necessary moneys and discovering processes, if need be, that are not being pursued by the scientists of other countries; it is important that we should join our information to theirs and bring about as speedily as possible a realization of the great value that we have in this natural product of ours, namely coal.


Mr. DAVID SPENCE (Parkdale):: This
resolution, I think, should pass the house, at least in modified form, and I am satisfied that the Minister of the Interior will be willing to accept it. We all appreciate the splendid address given by the minister, and the illuminating information he has presented to us. He is to be commended for the trouble he took m gathering that information.
We are told that Canada is a land flowing with milk and honey, a land of wonderful natural resources. I think that if part of the money voted for research purposes were expended in connection with the development of those resources, it would be money well spent. The minister did not touch on the question of the long hauls and the freight rates in this country, but may I point out that as between coal from Alberta and coal from Pittsburgh or Virginia the haul in one case is 400 or 450 miles and in the other 2,000 miles. If coal can be reduced to a condensed form it can be much more easily and economically carried. There are thousands of people burning oil in the city of Toronto today. It is just as cheap as anthracite coal and causes no dirt in the handling. If we could strike a few big oil wells in this country, or get our coal converted into gas or oil, it would be a splendid thing for Canada.
Instead of the resolution being adopted in its present form I suggest that it be amended as follows:
That in the opinion of this house the government of the Dominion of Canada should consider the initiation of such measures-
And so on. That will not commit the government to anything. I think the minister would be willing to accept the amendment.


Charles A. Stewart: Quite right. I may say to my hon. friend that I did not see the necessity of discussing transportation in connection with this resolution, because it is being dealt with on another motion.


David Spence: It is up to this country
to develop its natural resources. We have them in abundance, and we should exploit them before strangers secure control of them.


Mr. THOMAS CANTLEY (Pictou):: I have listened with very great interest, as I have no doubt we all have, to the discussion.
rMr. C. A. Stewart.]
There is no question whatever that the subject dealt with is an important one, but I doubt whether the problem is going to be worked out by any department of the government, bearing in mind that it has been the subject of investigation for more than a generation. In Scotland they have 'been extracting oil from shale for far more than that period of time. We have been doing that more or less in an experimental way over a period of ten years in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, and I might tell the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Kaiser) that if he goes down to Victoria street in Montreal, a few doors north of St. Catherine street, he will see a small unit there actually distilling oils from Nova Scotia shale and torbanite. That experimental plant has been working for a considerable time.
There are practical difficulties in connection with the process. I have listened with a great deal of interest to what has been said by the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart). I am fairly well acquainted with what has been done in Germany and I have been at a good many of the points he has referred to as having visited. I have been associated with a company which for the past ten years has been experimenting with the torbanites and shales of Pictou county which are among the largest and richest deposits in Canada. What are the practical difficulties? One difficulty is to get a process which will be continuous, that is, which will distil the oil from the shale and take care automatically of the refuse. So far as I am aware no process has yet been perfected that will, as an economic unit, meet the conditions which must be met in order to make the process a commercial success.
Another difficulty is the value of the product obtained. While crude oil is selling as low as it is to-day in the southern states and other oil-producing countries on this continent and Europe, it is not possible in my judgment, to produce shale oil or oil from the destructive distillation of coal at a profit, or in other words, to make it a commercial success. Our shales and torbanites-and practically the same thing applies, to coal- will give us forty gallons to, in some cases in the richer torbanites, even as much as one hundred gallons per ton. There is also the question how cheaply you can assemble the raw material and what you are going to obtain for the oil and other products.
Another difficulty is in connection with the disposal of gas. If you are going to treat the raw material, coal, close to the point where it is produced, say at the pit head

Lignite Coal-Mr. Cantley
or on the surface, where there is open cut mining, you have no market for the gases which are produced in enormous quantities. If, on the other hand, you transport the raw material coal to large centres of population where you have a market for the gases, you have to add the cost of transportation. Anyone can readily understand that, with coal or torbanite or shale giving fifty gallons of oil per ton, with a cost even as low as two dollars per ton for your raw material, you have an oil cost of four cents a gallon apart altogether from any other cost incidental to its production. With oil selling at $1.50 a barrel on the Atlantic coast of this country, the proposition is not commercially possible. That is the whole story. Just so soon as the cost of crude reaches the figures of, say, five years ago, the whole question will be solved. In five or six different countries people have been working for a generation, and continue to work, on this matter and there is available an enormous mass of information in the accumulated results of experiments and in actual work.
The minister has referred to what has been done in Germany and he has also made a statement with which I am in hearty accord, namely, that our kinsmen in Great Britain are not one whit behind the Germans or any other people as regards practical knowledge of this important question. As a matter of fact the people of Scotland have been extracting oil from shale longer than any other people in the world; they have been doing it successfully for forty years or more, and they have practically exhausted all the shales that are within four or five hundred feet of the surface of the ground in Scotland. They are now treating in their distilling plants oil brought from Persia because their supply of shale has been exhausted. After distilling oils from the shale they treat them in various wrays. They have practically ceased to distil oil from shale owing to the fact that their shales are exhausted, and they are now running their establishments as refineries for foreign oils.


Peter McGibbon: What would be the
value of the gas produced from a ton of coal?


Thomas Cantley: 1 cannot give the exact value, but in, every place it depends upon the rate of consumption or the available consumption. The minister made reference to pulverized coal. Pulverized coal has been used very successfully in quite a number of places. He also made reference to some steamers operating with such fuel. About four months ago the first steamer, so far as I am aware, fitted up to consume pulverized fuel, left the coast of America and crossed over to Great Britain.
More than seven hundred engineers and other gentlemen interested in shipping visited that steamer while1 she was in Great Britain in order to look into that installation. On her return to this country many engineers in Canada and other parts of this continent visited her. She was the first steamer propelled entirely by pulverized fuel that ever crossed the Atlantic and returned. It is expected-and there are good grounds for the expectation-that as a result of the working out of the system in connection with that installation, that method of steamship propulsion will supersede oil as boiler fuel and may supersede the Diesel engine. That is, of course, another question,-but in this country the use of pulverized coal is not a new matter. In Cape Breton there are boilers which have been heated with pulverized fuel for more than ten years. The Nova Scotia Steel Company in New Glasgow have furnaces that have been operated on pulverized coal for a matter of eight or ten or more years. There is a feeling in this country that we are behind many people in our application of new ideas. That is not true. There are many cases in which we are on a par with -anybody else in the world and the Canadian people as a rule are as bright, capable and progressive as any people in any other country.
I have no doubt that this problem will be solved, but it is a commercial question. It all hinges on the price at which crude oil can be produced and sold by the great producing wells of this continent and elsewhere, and while oil remains at the low figure at which it stands to-day very little practical progress will be made in the distillation of oil from coal, whether it be by high-temperature distillation or low-temperature distillation. Just as soon as the price of oil gets up to say, four or five dollars per barrel at the seaboard you will see coal so treated, as. has been suggested by the minister and by others this afternoon. As I said before, it is largely a question of transportation, and the relative cost of crude oil.


Mr. H. E. SPENCER (Battle River):: I
wish to congratulate the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Kaiser) upon bringing this subject before the house and also to congratulate the hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) upon the work his department has done, as well as the very valuable work he has promised to-day, to carry out with the support of this house.
While in England a year -ago I took the opportunity to gather such information as I could with regard to this process of extracting oil from coal. I visited a plant in
Lignite Coal-Mr. Spencer

Yorkshire where I obtained a lot of information that apparently the hon. member for Ccmox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) has not been made aware of up to the present. In England they claim that Germany has nothing on them so far as the process of getting crude oil from coal is concerned, and so sure was the company whose plant I had the pleasure of visiting that they had got the secret of production on a commercial basis, that although the plant I went over was only a ten-ton per day plant, the firm were building several hundred ton per day plants in that country.
As is well known by members of this house, we are losing about eighty per cent of the value of our coal when we burn it in the ordinary grate. It is probable that it is of more importance to Great Britain than to us to get oil from coal, but considering that we have in this country about fourteen per cent of the coal supply of the world, and that parts of this country are badly in need of fuel of some sort, it is very important that Canada should give consideration to the process that these other people have discovered. The factory which I visited had treated no less than some two hundred different varieties of coal in their experiments, and they claimed that they were getting anywhere from twenty to fifty gallons of crude oil from each ton of coal treated, according to the variety.	One very valuable thing
about this process was that they were able to make use of the very small coal, the dust of the mine, which to-day is considered practically useless.
One of the criticisms that we made a year ago with regard to the proposed establishment of coking plants in this country was that it was difficult to find markets in this country for the huge amount of gas that is produced by such plants. If we can discover some better means of handling coal, as has been suggested by the mover of this resolution, we shall come nearer to using one hundred per cent of the coal in some other form than gas.
I again wish to express my appreciation of the work the department has done and of the work the minister has promised to do with the support of this house.


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I move, Mr. Speaker, that the
resolution be amended to read as follows:
That, in the opinion of this house, the government of the Dominion of Canada should consider the advisability of taking steps to bring about the utilization of our deposits of lignite and bituminous coal, by conversion into crude oil and other valuable commodities.

I think that is the drafting which was agreed to by the mover.


Hewitt Bostock: Does the hon. member
accept the amendment?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Yes.


David Spence: Is that similar to the one
I have?


Hewitt Bostock: Yes.
Motion as amended agreed to.



GRADING OF WHEAT


Mr. JOHN MILLAR (Qu'Appelle) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house the statutory definitions applying to all contract grades of wheat in the western inspection division, should be amended in such a manner as to provide for including protein as a factor.
He said:	In proposing to the house, Mr. Speaker, the resolution that appears on the order paper in my name I wish to impress upon hon. members the fact that if this resolution be carried and put into effect, it would meet a very long-felt want. I cannot remember any time during the last twenty or twenty-five years in western Canada when there has not been an agitation more or less pronounced in favour of having our wheat graded according to its milling and baking value, rather than according to colour. True, during those years, having agitated so long without meeting with any results, the agitation sometimes has naturally not been heard of very much, but since placing this resolution on the order paper I have received a number of letters commending it. One man remarked to me when I was leaving home that if this resolution could be put through the house, it would be one of the finest things for western Canada that had been done for some time.
I might point out, Mr. Speaker, that this is a matter of very great importance since it affects the producers of four hundred million bushels of wheat. During the last twenty or twenty-five years we have had our wheat graded according to standards that have been inflexible, standing still, as it were. There have been slight changes, but they have been only very slight. At the same time, the chemical knowledge of wheat and flour has greatly advanced during past years. Chemists have been at work in this country, in the United States, Great Britain and elsewhere, and they have learned a great deal about the different elements of wheat. It is quite natural, therefore, that millers and bakers should have benefited by that knowledge and

Grading oj Wheat-Mr. Millar
have changed and improved their trade practices. So the time has arrived now when though wheat is sold in Canada and in England on grade, and in the United States on protein content, it is really selected by the representatives of the mills of Canada and Great Britain on that same basis of quality. The world over it does seem that millers are placing a great deal more importance and greater market value on protein content than on any other element in the wheat berry. In a moment I shall read some extracts from authorities which will bear out that statement.
Some people have asked me, after reading the resolution, what is its intent. Is it the purpose of the resolution again to subdivide our present grades of wheat and so multiply the number? That is not the purpose at oil; the number of grades will not be increased. The purpose is simply to grade on a different basis. Instead of grading Wheat Ion weight per bushel, variety, and colour-I stress colour-the proposition is that it should be graded as now except on the factor of colour. The proposition is that colour shall be very largely eliminated as it only affects the bran in many cases, and does not indicate the milling or baking value of the wheat. I would substitute for colour the factor of quantity of protein. The effect will be that a considerable quantity of grain would take a higher grade, especially in a year like the present, when during the threshing season or immediately after harvest there comes a spell of bad weather and considerable grain has been affected in the bran and has not then the red colour demanded by the Grain Act definition. Much of the slightly sprouted grain has been proved on analysis, as I shall show later, not to have been damaged in milling quality. It has been held in the United States that this discolouration is not damage. But this grain before it was discoloured was graded No. 1 northern; immediately after discolouration it was graded down to No. 3. If hon. members are inclined to think, "Oh, well, the farmers are always kicking, and this is just another form of it," I should like to ask them how they would be satisfied, after labouring for a year and harvesting their crop, to have their wheat given a classification by the inspection that lowers it in value from $100 to $400 per car, without just cause. There have been times during this winter when the spread was as high as 15 cents between two grades, and 25 cents between No. 1 and No. 3. Wheat such as I have described *-millions of bushels, sometimes more than half the crop-is affected in this way. You can see the tremendous importance of this
question to the farmers of western Canada, and naturally it causes a great deal of dissatisfaction.
Turning to the Grain Act definition on page 28, I read:
No. 1 Manitoba Northern wheat shall include all varieties of hard red spring wheat equal in value to marquis wheat;-
There we have some guarantee of quality, because any wheat that reaches the high standard of marquis is a good milling wheat. But let me point out that in the case of marquis or any other variety the variation in protein content of the wheat grown in different districts in western Canada is very great. You may find marquis wheat with only from eight to nine per cent of protein, and you may also find it with seventeen or eighteen per cent. I pass on:
-shall be well matured and well cleaned,-
Of course, that is no indication of strength.
-weighing not less than 60 pounds to the bushel-
Everyone familiar with wheat knows that that is not any indication of strength. The pounds per bushel is related to yield of the flour per bushel, that is all; it indicates nothing else.
-and practically free of damaged kernels and foreign grains;-
Now we come to the latter part of the definition:
-shall contain 60 per cent of hard red vitreous kernels.
That is the definition. Is there anything there to indicate strength in the wheat? Yes, there is. Hard red vitreous kernels are likely to be stronger than those that do not come under such a description. But if it is spring threshed wheat or has been subjected to ram and other conditions, it is not then a red wheat. Although the damage is only to the bran, the wheat cannot be described as red, and so it will not qualify to go into No. 1 northern grade.
A case was brought to my attention some time ago which will, I am sure, interest the house. It has to do with a sample of American wheat, but the illustration holds good. It graded No. 1 on the American side of the best variety they grow there. The grain was conditioned to prepare it for milling-not damaged, you may rest assured; not lowered in value, you may rest assured; it was improved and worth more to the milling firm. That grain was submitted to a gentleman who had been a deputy grain inspector in Winnipeg, and he graded it No. 3. Now, that is the condition under which we are marketing our grain at the present time. I do not think

the printed proceedings of the Research Council of Canada the following:
All endeavour so far has failed to disclose any method by which strength may be measured other than the baking test, but this method is unsatisfactory for many reasons. It is inexact, depends chiefly on the skill of the operator, is time-robbing, and when completed it is impossible to express the results numerically or in a way that would be universally understood. Also reliance can scarcely be placed on a single test, and often as many as three bakings must be made to make certain of the results.
That is to say, it is a characteristic of a great deal of western Canadian grain, as well as of some American grain, that it lacks in diastastic or yeast action. Our grain is noted for that. Baking alone would give very unsatisfactory results. Then again Wheat that contains, as some reward wheat and some marquis wheat does, 17 or 18 per cent of protein, baked by 'tself would not give satisfactory results. It is not a satisfactory wheat. The gluten is too rigid. It is what the millers call gluten-bound. Someone may ask what is protein. I am not a chemist but I may give some explanation. Protein is a kind of food that belongs to the class containing nitrogen. That distinguishes it from the starch and other elements contained in the wheat. Although there are many proteins in wheat only two need be considered from the bread making standpoint; that is glutenin and gliadin. These two, when mixed with water in the flour, form a sticky dough, such as we have seen in mother's kitchen. If the protein in the wheat has been of good quality there will be an abundance of stickiness in the dough. If it is not of a good quality, it will "run." It will not hold fermentation, the fermentation period will not last long, and the size of the loaf will not be satisfactory. If the quantity and quality of gluten is sufficient, we will have, when baked, a large well-shaped, fine-texture loaf of bread, and there will be a goodly number of loaves to the barrel of flour, which is an important consideration from the standpoint of the baker. Reading again from the article from Milling, Liverpool, I would like to answer the objection that the quantity of protein is not of much value. This article says:
In considering protein tests, the objection usually raised is that they are only a measure of quantity and not quality of gluten. But is it really requisite to know the quality of the gluten in the original unconditioned wheat? A superficial examination is sufficient to indicate if the wheat is diseased, frosted or shrivelled, and in these cases the protein test is not required. The quality of the gluten in unconditioned wheat is not of vital importance, since the business of conditioning is to improve and modify the gluten out of all recognition to its original state. How is the miller to


Milton Neil Campbell: May I first congratulate the hon. member for Qu'Appelle on his very able presentation of this all important matter, and for the careful and patient study he has given to the consideration of the question of the grading of grain according to its milling value.
This question. Sir, is something that has agitated the farmers of western Canada for very many years. As early as 1903, in response to demands from the agricultural population, the government of the Northwest Territories undertook to have an investigation into the question. In the early part of 1904, Professor Harcourt, chemist of the Ontario Agricultural college, was commissioned by the Agricultural department of the territories to undertake this investigation. Professor Harcourt secured samples of the various grades of wheat that could be obtained in western Canada at that time. These were done up in packages and shipped to the chief grain inspector at Winnipeg. The samples included wheat all the way from "No. 1 hard" to "feed." I will just read from a book called Deep Furrows some of the records connected with this investigation:
They were milled with exceptional care to prevent mixing of the various lots and the flours obtained were put through three different baking tests.
The conclusion reached was that there did not appear to be much difference in the value of the different grades of wheat. Even the "feed" sample proved by no means useless for bread-making purposes, either in yield or quality: the only thing that rendered it less
available for bakers' use was its darker colour. All who saw the loaves were surprised at the quality of this bread.
These tests seemed to confirm the suspicion the farmers had always had, that the difference in the price between No. 1 hard and feed was entirely out of line with the actual intrinsic value of the wheat. For instance, reading again from the record:
From No. 1 hard the amount of flour was 70.8 per cent, as against 68 per cent from the No. 4 grade.
In 1903 there was a very severe frost on the prairies which seriously damaged thie grain. There was also a great deal of wet weather that fall, consequently much of the grain was damp and tough. The government thought that perhaps it was not fair to take the 1903 grain as a test, so they did the same work again next year; and with respect .to this I read again from the book already quoted from:
The second tests practicaly confirmed the work done the previous year. The milling, chemical and baking tests failed to show very wide differences in the composition and milling value of the grades submitted. The conclusion reached was that the difference in composition and milling value was nearly as great between samples of any one grade as between the various grades.
That is very important. Even the difference between certain classes of No. 1 wheat may be just as great as the difference in the milling qualities of No. 1 itself and the lowest grade of wheat.
In 1923 this government appointed a commission to inquire into the handling of our grain. Professor Rutherford, who was a member of that commission, was sent to Europe and he studied the situation over there. He visited the British Isles, where he spent a considerable time, and he also visited various points on the continent of Europe. Professor Rutherford's report is attached in the appendix to this commission's report which was presented to the house in 1925. He points out what we all know, namely, that our wheat may be subdivided into three main divisions. First, there is the hard red spring wheat which is grown in the prairie provinces and which, because of its high protein quality and quantity combined, is probably the very best wheat in the world for bread-making. In the second place, there is the durum wheat which is used largely in the manufacture of macaroni. Then there are the softer Ontario wheats, which are more suitable for biscuits, scones and various classes of pastry.
The old country millers, all of whom, I may say, employ chemists and who have, in conjunction with their mills, laboratories
500	COMMONS
Grading of Grain-Mr. Campbell
for the testing of this grain,, pointed out one very important matter to Professor Rutherford. They stated, first, that Canadian grain received direct from Vancouver is of a higher quality than grain of a similar grade carrying the same certificate received from Canadian Atlantic ports. Further, they pointed out. that grain received from Canadian Atlantic ports is of a considerably higher quality than grain carrying similar grade certificates received from United States ports. It is quite obvious that the difference is due to the mixing. There is probably no mixing so far at Vancouver. We know that our grain in passing through the United States-although it is bonded and carries a Canadian grade certificate, which accompanies it to the old country-is being constantly mixed in transit through the United States and our grades are thus debased. Let me read from Professor Rutherford's report in which he points this out. He states:
Manitoba one northern via Vancouver is worth a Shilling a quarter over Atlantic, and Vancouver threes have been nearly as good as Atlantic twos, and fours as good as threes, or nearly so.
Then he goes on to quote the millers. He says:
We set our prices according to what we expect to receive, based on past experiences.
Therefore we sell our grain in the old country on its milling value, because the millers base the price they will pay for a certain No. 1 or No. 2, as the case may be, on the experience they have had in the past with that particular grade. On page 185 of this report Professor Rutherford states:
Among the millers interviewed in the old country on this question, the preponderance of -opinion was to the effect that during the last ten or twelve years there has been a slight gradual lowering of the milling value of Canada's wheat.
That, I think, is something we should all take into consideration because it affects the sale of our wheat in competition with that of other countries. On page 186 he says:
No doubt the mixing of grain, as it has been carried on in the past, has played a part in deducing the quality of grain through Atlantic ports.
Professor Rutherford also visited many of our Canadian mills, and on page 187 he says:
From one of the large Canadian mills in western Canada, I obtained a report on the protein content of 114 cars of one northern wheat, ranging from 10.8 per cent to 16.5 per cent.
Any one can see what a difference there is in the intrinsic value of the wheat. Although it was all No. 1, yet it ranged in protein content from 10.8 per cejit to 16.5 per cent.
FMr. Campbell.]
I have under my hand a synopsis of the report of the United States Department of Agriculture for the past year. In dealing with this question Secretary Jardine says:
Desirable milling wheat for domestic consumption gave returns to the grower at least fifteen cents a bushel above the value of export grades. At Kansas City premiums for choice hard red winter wheat ranged as high as thirty-five cents a bushel. A ear of wheat marketed at Minneapolis showing 16 per cent protein commanded a premium of sixty-five cents a bushel.
That is sixty-five cents above the regular price for that particular grain and under our system that might have been lost entirely to the grower. A few years ago, in a district not very far from my home, a farmer sent two samples of No. 3 wheat grown on his own farm to Minneapolis to have them inspected and tested for their protein content. One of those was grown on summer fallow, the other on spring ploughing, and nothwithstanding the fact that under our system they graded the same No. 3 wheat, a miller in Minneapolis offered this man a premium of twenty-six cents a bushel for the wheat grown on summer fallow. Hon. members can understand what this actually means to our farmers.
A few years ago the hon- member for Qu'Appelle, some other hon. gentleman in this section of the house and myself called on the Minister of Trade and Commerce and suggested to him the establishment of a laboratory at Winnipeg to carry on this work. The minister agreed to that and Doctor Birchard, I think, has been placed on that particular work. But Doctor Birchard has been very much crippled in his work. I understand he has not. sufficient staff; he has not the proper equipment to carry out this work, and I should like to impress upon the minister the necessity of his having sufficient staff with equipment to carry on the work of that laboratory so that any farmer who wishes to determine the protein content of his wheat can send a sample to Winnipeg and find out, before it leaves his farm, whether it is premium wheat or not. I quite realize the impossibility at the present time of devising any system whereby wheat at the local elevator can 'be tested for protein content. Mr. Robinson, of the Board of Grain Commissioners, speaking at the recent convention of the United Farmers of Alberta, is quoted in the Western Producer as making the following statement:
There are now 573 recognized grades of wheat, and including the tough and damp, the total is in the neighbourhood of 1,700 grades.

The Budget-Private Members' Days
One can therefore quite understand what we would have to face if we tried to create any more grades. At this time I am not altogether in favour of establishing _ a system by statute. I hardly think it is workable. In a sense I think to a large degree the farmers' grievances have been met by the formation of a wheat board, that is, the premium grain is all in the pool, and the premiums received are distributed amongst the farmers.


John Millar: Is it not a fact that those
who produce the fancy grades do not receive .the fancy prices?


Milton Neil Campbell: I was just going to
point that out. At the present time, of course, the farmer who produces the premium grain does not get the fancy price, but it is a little better than it was before. It is distributed amongst them all. The grievances have not been fully met, but they have been met to a degree, and in so far as the pool distributes these tokens back to the farmer, by creating competition it does force the grain companies to do the same perhaps to a greater or less degree. But as I said before, it is impossible to devise any system for judging the milling value of grain at the local elevator. It can be done at Winnipeg, but I think the time is just a little too soon to create a statutory grade. I would like, however, to see this resolution go before the agriculture committee where representatives of the wheat pool, the grain companies, farmers' organizations, millers and all others interested can appear and present their views. There is a certain amount of research work being done at the present time, and I hope the minister will agree to sending this resolution to the committee on agriculture.


John Millar: Would the hon. member
please read the matter I refered to on page 159 of the royal grain inquiry commissioner's report?


Milton Neil Campbell: Dr. Rutherford in his
report says:
I asked the standholder if he knew the statutory definition of Manitoba No. one northern. His answer was "No". He liked to trade on the Canadian certificate final. It gave them the least trouble. I asked him if it would be an advantage in selling Canadian wheat if he would guarantee the miller a grade with say 14 per cent protein. "It would", he agreed, "be of advantage to the miller to have such information and more, if possible".


Hewitt Bostock: Does the hon. member
wish to continue the debate?


Milton Neil Campbell: Yes.


Hewitt Bostock: Then the resolution will
retain its precedence on the order paper.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Before the house rises,
with the permission of hon. members I should like to say a word in regard to to-morrow's business. It is understood that the budget will be brought down by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) early in the afternoon. On Monday night, I think it was, the house agreed unanimously to this course being adopted, and the intention of the government was to ask the house to allow the debate on the budget to have precedence over all other business until disposed of. I have been informed by some hon. members that it would suit their convenience better if after the Minister of Finance delivers his budget presentation the debate on the budget were not to be proceeded with until Monday of next week. The government is anxious to meet the desires of hon. members in that regard, and I therefore wish to intimate at the moment that our intention after the budget has been, presented is to return to the regular order of business on Thursdays.
I had undertaken on behalf of the government later on to give a day for private members' day if we exhausted Thursday in a discussion of the budget, but I now would like to modify the undertaking of the government in that particular so as to give on some subsequent day a period of time corresponding with whatever time is taken up by the Minister of Finance in presenting his budget. I think hon. members will see that that is fair.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: The leader of the opposition before leaving the house told me that he wished to agree to the adjournment of the budget debate to-morrow afternoon until Monday, but he also hoped that the government would not depart from the suggestion it had made before, and that although part of to-morrow afternoon and to-morrow evening may be given to a discussion of private members' resolutions, the government would not depart from giving another day, as otherwise it would be holding private members down to practically four days during the whole session.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think I may say that there will be every readiness to give some additional time to private members. We shall not exhaust private members' rights by taking next Monday to go on with the debate on the budget.


[Stage Direction]
At six o'clock the house adjourned, without question being put, pursuant to standing order.
Questions
[Stage Direction]
Thursday, February 16, 1928