1928-02-13

TARIFF ADVISORY BOARD

Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):: On Wednesday, February 8, the hon. member for East Calgary (Mr. Adshead) asked that the evidence given before the tariff advisory board with regard to cottons be tabled. I now place on the table copies of the evidence.



SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) presented the report of the special committee appointed to prepare and report lists of members to compose the select standing committees of the house as follows:
[Stage Direction]
ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Messieurs
Beaubien,
Bell (Hamilton),
Bell (St. Antoine), Bennett,
Bird,
Blatchford,
Cannon,
Clark,
Cotnam,
Denis (Joliette), Duff,
Edwards (Frontenac-Addington),
Elliott,
Goodison,
Jacobs,
Johnston (Long Lake),
Kellner,
Kennedy,
King (Kootenay East),
Lapointe,
McPhee,
McQuarrie,
MacDonald (Cape Breton South), Marcil,
Mercier (St. Henri), Ralston,
Rkeaume.-29.
Gott,
Hanson,
(Quorum 10)

Select Standing Committees
[Stage Direction]
No. 2 ON RAILWAYS, CANALS AND TELEGRAPH LINES
Messieurs Kay,
Anderson (Toronto-High Park),
Bell (St. Antoine), Bell (Hamilton), Blatchford,
Bock,
Bothwell,
Bourgeois,
Bowman,
Cahan,
Cahill,
Cantley,
Casgrain,
Casselman.
Denis (Joliette), Drayton, (Sir Henry), Dubuc,
Dunning,
Edwards (Waterloo), Evans,
Fafard,
Fansher (Last Mountain),
Foster, [DOT]
Fraser;
Gardiner,
Geary,
Gershaw,
Guerin,
Heaps,
Howderi,
Jones,
Kellner,
Kennedy,
Lanctot,
Laflamme,
Lapierre,
McLean (Melfort), McQuarrie, Macdonald (Kings), MaeLean (Prince), MacNutt,
Manion,
Mercier (Laurier-Outremont), Milne,
Morin (Bagot), Parent,
Pettit,
Pouliot,
Price,
Rennie,
Ryerson,
Seguin,
Simpson,
Stevens,
Stewart (Leeds), Telford,
Tobin,
Totzke,
Vallance,
Young.-60.
(Quorum 20)
No. S
ON MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS Messieurs
Adsbead,
Anderson (Halton), Baldwin,
Barber,
Blanchard,
Boucher,
Bowen,
Brown,
Cahan,
Cannon,
Chaplin,
Church,
Denis (St. Denis),
Descoteaux,
Deslauriers,
[Stage Direction]
Embury,
Fansher
(Lambton East), Fontaine,
Glen,
Hall,
Irvine,
Kay,
Langlois,
Letellier, Luchkoviteh, McGregor,
McIntosh,
McMillan,
McPherson,
Macdonald
(Glengarry),
MacLaren,
Maloney,
Mercier (Laurier-Outremont),
Parent,
Peck.
Pettit.
Robitaille,
Rutherford,
Sanderson,
Seguin,
Sinclair
(Wellington North), Spence,
Stinson,
Telford,
Thompson,
Tummon,
Verville,
Wilson (Wentworth), Young
(Saskatoon).-50.
(Quorum 15)
[Stage Direction]
ON STANDING ORDERS Messieurs
Bell (Hamilton),	Ladner,
Blanchard,	Lavigueur,
Blatchford,	McGregor,
Brady,	McKenzie,
Desaulniers,	MacNutt,
Deslauriers,	Mercier (St. Henri),
Ernst,	Morin (St. Hyacinthe-
Evans,	Rouville),
Gershaw,	Speakman,
Gervais, Grimmer,	Young (Weyburn).-20,
(Quorum 8)

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs
Baldwin,	MacLaren,
Bettez,	Marcil,
Bock,	Maloney,
Boulanger,	Matthews,
Bradette,	Maybee,
Charters,	Morrissy,
Edwards (Waterloo),	Peck,
Embury,	Perras,
Eslin,	Prevost,
Evans,	Quinn, Raymond,
Foster,	
Fraser,	Rennie,
Garland (Bow River),	Rinfret,
Girouard,	Roberge,
Gott,	Rowe,
Goulet,	Ryerson,
Hocken,	St. Pere,
Howden,	Speakman,
Hubbs,	Spencer,
Kaiser,	Spotton,
Lacombe,	Steedsman,
Lacroix,	Sylvestre,
Lang.	Taylor,
Lapierre, Lucas,	Verville, White (Mount Royal),
McKenzie,	Wilson (Vaudreuil-
MaeLean (Prince), Macdonald (Glengarry),	Soulanges).-54.
No. 6	
ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS	
Messieurs	
Adsliead,	Gardiner,
Arthurs,	Girouard,
Beaubien,	Guthrie,
Bettez,	Hanson,
Black (Yukon),	Ilsley,
Bothwell,	J acobs,
Boys,	Kaiser,
Campbell, '	Laflamme,
Cahan,	Lapierre,
Cannon,	Lennox,
Clark,	Lovie,
Coote,	McDiarmid,
Denis (Joliette),	Malcolm,
Donnelly,	M anion,
Drayton, (Sir Henry),	Odette,
Dubuc,	Parent,
Duff.	Perras,
Edwards (Frontenac-	Pouliot,
Addington),	Power,
Select Standing Committees
[Stage Direction]
Preston,
Raymond,
Ross (Kingston), Rutherford,
Ryckman,
Smith (Stormont), Smith (Cumberland),
Stewart (Leeds), Taylor,
Telford,
Thorson,
Tobin,
Whi te (London)-50.
(Quorum 15)
Stirling,
Sylvestre,
Toltnie,
Tummon,
Totzke,
Vallance,
Young (Weyburn), Young
(Saskatoon).-60. (Quorum 20)
[Stage Direction]

No. 7 ON MARINE AND FISHERIES ON BANKING AND COMMERCE
Messieurs
Allan,	J a cobs,
Bennett,	Ladner,
Benoit,	Lang,
Bird,	McLean (Melfort),
Black (Halifax)	, McMillan,
Bock,	McPhee,
Both well,	McRae,
Brown, Casgrain,	Matthews,
	Odette,
Casselman,	Perley, (Sir George),
Cayley,	Robb,
Chaplin,	Robinson,
Clark,	Robitaille,
Donnelly,	Ross (Moose Jaw).
Drayton, (Sir Henry), Rutherford,	
Ernst,	Ryckman,
Fa ford,	Smith (Stormont),
Geary,	Smoke,
Gervais,	Spencer,
Guerin,	Steedsman,
Hanson,	Stevens,
Harris,	Vallance,
Hay,	Ward,
Hepburn,	Woodsworth,
Irvine,	Young (Weyburn).-50. (Quorum 15) No. 8
ON AGRICULTURE AND COLONIZATION Messieurs
Anderson (Halton),	Garland (Carleton),
Arthurs,	Garland (Bow River),
Bancroft,	Gervais,
Benoit,	Gott,
Boivin,	Guthrie,
Bouchard,	Hodgins,
Boulanger,	Kay,
Bourassa,	Lanctot,
Bourgeois,	Lucas,
Bowen,	McGibbon,
Boys,	McKenzie,
Brown,	McMillan,
Cahan,	McPhee,
Campbell,	McRae,
Carmichael,	Maybee,
Casgrain,	Millar,
Charters,	Morin (Bagot),
Coote,	Motherwell,
Delisle,	Rowe,
Desaulniers,	Seguin,
Donnelly,	Senn.
Dubuc,	Sinclair
Edwards (Frontenac-	(Wellington North),
Addington),	Spence,
Fafard,	Spotton,
Fansher	Steedsman,
(Last Mountain),	Stewart
Forke,	(Edmonton West),
IMr. Mackenzie King.]
Bancroft,
Beaubien,
Bissett,
Blanchard,
Bourgeois,
Brady,
Cantley,
Cardin,
Dickie,
Dionne,
[Stage Direction]
Dusseault,
Ernst,
Fansher (Last Mountain), Grimmer, [DOT]Jenkins,
King (Kootenay East),
Messieurs
Luchkoviteh,
MacDonald (Cape Breton South), Macdonald (Kings), MacDonald (Richmond-West Cape Breton), MacLean (Prince), McPherson,
McQuarrie,
McRae,
Morrissy,
Neill,
Pouliot,
Price,
Quinn,
Short,
Sinclair (Queens), Smith (Stormont), Ward.-34.
(Quorum 10)
[Stage Direction]
ON MINES, FORESTS AND WATERS Messieurs
Anderson (Toronto-
High Park), Baldwin,
Barber,
Beaubien,
Bell
(St. John-Albert), Black (Yukon), Blatchford, Bouchard,
Bradette,
Cahill,
Cowan,
Dickie,
[Stage Direction]
Esliug,
Gershaw,
Heaps,
Howden,
Usley,
Jelliff,
J ohnstone
(Cape Breton-North Victoria), Lanctot,
Lapierre,
Letellier,
McDiarmid,
McLean (Melfort), MacDonald
(Richmond-West Cape Breton), Macdougall, Macphail, (Miss), Millar,
Roberge,
Robinson,
Sanderson,
Simpson,
Smith (Cumberland) Stewart (Edmonton West).-35.
(Quorum 10)
No. 11	.

[Stage Direction]
Messieurs
Auger,	Cowan,
Bell (St. John-Albert),Deslauriers,
Bissett,	Gervais,
Black (Halifax),	Grimmer,
Bourassa,	Hall,
Church,	Heenan,

Bankruptcy Act
Howard,	Perley, (Sir George)
Johnstone	Prevost,
(Cape Breton-NorthRoss (Kingston),
Victoria), Laflamme, Letellier, Macphail, Miss, McGibbon, McIntosh, McMillan, Malcolm,
Morin (St.
Rouville), Neill,
Stinson,
Thorson,
Tolmie,
Veniot,
White (Mount Royal), Wilson (Vaudreuil-Soulanges), Woodsworth,
Hyacinthe-Young (Toronto NorthEast) .-34.
(Quorum 10)

[Stage Direction]
Bouchard,
Church,
Elliott,
Hocken,
Maedougall,
Marcil,
Messieurs
Millar,
Preston,
Prevost,
Rinfret,
Ross (Moose Jaw).-11. (Quorum 7)
Mr. MACKENZIE KING moved:: That the lists of members composing the select
standing committees of the house under standing order 63 be printed in Hansard.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

William Lyon Mackenzie King: That the select standing committees of the house shall severally be empowered to examine and inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the house, and to report from time to time their observations and opinions thereon, with power to send for persons, papers and records.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. C. BRADY (Skeena) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 38, to amend the Bankruptcy Act (Attendance for examination).
Mr. LAPOINTE:: Explain.



No. 13 ON THE LIBRARY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. Speaker
Auger,
Bettez,
Bourassa,
Bowman,
Carmichael,
Chevrier,
Cotnam,
Descoteaux,
Dionne,
Edwards (Ottawa), Fontaine,
Foster,
Fraser,
Garland (Carleton),
Geary,
Girouard,
Glen,
Guthrie,
Hepburn,
Hodgins,
J ones,
Kennedy,
and Messieurs Lacroix,
Langlois,
Lavigueur,
Lennox,
McIntosh,
Marcil,
Neill,
Pouliot,
Prevost,
Quinn,
Rinfret,
Senn,
Short,
Smoke,
Spencer,
St. Pere,
Stirling,	.
Thompson,
White (London), Young (Toronto-Northeast) .-43.
Mr. BRADY:: In very large and sparsely
populated areas such as are to be found in northern British Columbia, and, I take it, in other parts of Canada, the debtor who has made an assignment is obliged under the act, with severe penalties for non-compliance, to travel very often hundreds of miles in order to present himself for examination before the official receiver, who under the present act is persona designata. The purpose of this bill is to save the debtor from having to travel hundreds of miles, as is sometimes the case, in northern British Columbia, and no doubt the same condition is found in other parts of Canada as well. If there is any further explanation required, I shall be glad to give it on the second reading of the bill.
' Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



IMMIGRATION OF MINERS


[Stage Direction]
Mr. Speaker
Bancroft,
Black (Yukon), Boivin.
Carmichael,
Cayley,
Chevrier,
Edwards (Ottawra), Fiset, (Sir Eugene), Howard,
Howden,
Mr. MACKENZIE report be concurred i
and Messieurs Kay,
Kellner,
Lang, .
Maedougall,
McQuarrie,
Preston,
Senn,
Wilson
(Wentworth).-19.
KING moved that the
Motion agreed to.
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Alberni):: I
would like to ask the Minister of Immigration (Mr. Forke) a question; I see he is not in his place at the moment, but perhaps he can give me an answer to-morrow. I will first call his attention to a news item appearing in the Sunday Times, of London, England, of December 4, 1927. It consists of only one sentence, which I will read:
"Every unemployed miner in Great Britain," said Mr. H. H. Stevens, M.P., of Vancouver, who arrived in Liverpool yesterday on the Canadian Pacific liner Melita, "can be_ found employment in the Canadian mines, provided he is physically fit."
St. John River Storage

In the absence of the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) I doubt whether he said that, for I give him credit for more sense, but the statement was published on the apparent authority of an exminister of the crown and is calculated to do great harm in Great Britain by inducing destitute miners to come out here. I would ask the Minister of Immigration if he would see to it that the great publicity means that he has at his command be used to inform the people in Great Britain that there is no scope for miners in this country, but that, on the contrary, we have large numbers on both the Atlantic and Pacific coasts either idle or working only part time.



ST. JOHN RIVER STORAGE COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
On the order:
Second reading of Bill No. 17, respecting the St. John River Storage Company.

Sir Eugene Fiset.
Sir EUGENE FISET:: Stand.


Mr. J. F. POULIOT (Temiscouata):: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Section 92 of the British North America Act provides:
In each province the legislature may exclusively make laws in relation to matters coming within the classes of subjects next hereinafter enumerated.
And subsection 11 of that section reads:
The incorporation of companies with provincial objects.
Now what is this bill?


Eugène Fiset: The bill is not
yet before the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: Yes, but I rise to a point of order.


Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER:: There is nothing before the house at the moment, and the point of order about to be raised by the hon. member (Mr. Pouliot) cannot be raised at this stage.


Ernest Lapointe: My hon. friend from Rimouski
(Sir Eugene Fiset) is not proceeding with this bill to-day, I understand, so I think my hon. friend from Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) should wait until he does proceed before he raises his point of order.


Jean-François Pouliot: But I understood this bill was up for second reading.	.


Ernest Lapointe: But he is not proceeding with it to-day.


John Frederick Johnston: The hon.
gentleman rose as soon as the order was called. The hon. member for Rimouski said " Stand" and therefore there is nothing before the house.


Jean-François Pouliot: All right, we will take it
up to-morrow.



QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Has an expert committee been appointed, in compliance with the recommendations contained in the report of the inter-imperial relations committee to the imperial conference of 1926, to enquire into, report upon and make recommendations concerning,-
(i)	Existing statutory provisions requiring reservation of Dominion legislation for the assent of His Majesty or authorizing the disallowance of such legislation?
(ii)	a. The present position as to the competence of Dominion parliaments to give their legislation extra-territorial operation;
b. The practicability and most convenient method of giving effect to the principle that each Dominion parliament should have power to give extra-territorial operation to its legislation in all cases where such operation is auxiliary to provision for the peace, order and good government of .Canada; and
(iii)	The principles embodied in or underlying the Colonial Laws Validity Act, 1865, and the extent to which any provisions of that act ought to be repealed, amended or modified in the light of the existing relations between the various members of the British commonwealth of nations as described in said report of the inter-imperial relations committee ?
2.	If such expert committee has been appointed, when were the appointments made, and who were appointed, on the recommendation of the government of Canada, as Canada's representatives on said committee?
3.	Has said committee reported?
4.	Will the report and recommendations of said committee be submitted to the Canadian parliament during the present session?
5.	Was a special sub-conference appointed or constituted to meet, at or about the same time as said expert committee, to consider the general question of merchant shipping legislation, and particularly, to consider and report on the principles which should govern, in the general interest, the practice and legislation relating to merchant shipping in the various parts of the empire, having regard to the change in constitutional status and general relations which have occurred since existing laws were enacted?
6.	Has the proposed sub-conference been held, and who were members thereof?
7.	Wbo were appointed to represent the government of Canada at the said sub-conference?
8.	Has the said sub-conference reported?
9.	Will the report of the said sub-conference be submitted to the Canadian parliament during the present session?

Questions


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The Secretary of State of Dominion Affairs, in his recent visit to the dominions, was in conference with the several governments as to the date for the meeting of the committee which will be most convenient to all concerned. It is understood that as a result of this exchange of views a time of meeting will be announced shortly.
2-4. Answered by No. 1.
' 5. The position is the same as in the case of the expert committee.
6-9. Answered by No. 5.


CANADA-FRANCE POSTAL RATES
Mr. PARENT:: 1.	Is the postal rate for letters, books and newspapers or magazines and periodicals between Canada and France the same as between Canada and Great Britain?
2.	If not, why?


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	No.
2.	An effort is being made at the present time to negotiate lower postal rates between Canada and France, but the French postal authorities have pointed out the existing financial conditions in France and the necessity in that country for the government considering the postal service as a source of revenue. They have also pointed out that should the rates of postage between France and Canada be reduced, they would quite possibly be met with requests from other countries that the rates between France and those countries should be similarly reduced, and that this may prove an important factor in dealing with the question under consideration.


MAIL TRANSPORTATION COSTS
Mr. WOODSWORTH:: 1.	What proportion of His Majesty's mails
are transported over the Canadian National railways?	. , ,	,	.	,.
2.	What amount was paid last year to the Canadian National railways, and what amount to the Canadian Pacific railway for the transportation of mails?


Mr. YENIOT:: 1 and 2. Expenditures on account of the railway mail service for the whole of Canada for fiscal year, 1926-27:
Canadian Pacific railways.. .$3,670,530 40 Canadian National railways. 3,169,609 61 Other railways	 4S4,406 77
Total	$7,324,546 78
The above figures represent approximately the percentage of mails carried by the different railways.
In every case the department has to be governed by the requirements of the postal service in the territory served by the railway, but wherever it is possible to do so preference is given to the National railways in the carriage of the mails and the establishment of new services.


JAPANESE IMMIGRATION
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1.	Of what does the present arrangement consist, if any, between Canada and Japan limiting immigration to Canada from Japan?
2.	Under that arrangement what is the maximum number of Japanese persons of each sex admissible to Canada annually?
3.	How many Japanese of each sex have been admitted to Canada each year since 1925.


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	The arrangement is based upon an exchange of notes effected in 1907, between the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Japan and the Hon. Rodolphe Lemieux, wherein the Japanese government stated that it was not its intention to insist upon the lull enjoyment of the rights and privileges of entry, travel and residence which it considered were guaranteed by the treaty of 1894 between His Britannic Majesty and the Emperor of Japan, and that it would take efficient means to restrict emigration to Canada.
2.	Under this arrangement, as modified by a further exchange of notes in 1923, it was understood that the Japanese government would not issue passports to household servants and agricultural labourers going to Canada in excess of one hundred and fifty a year. No maximum number of Japanese persons of each sex admissible to Canada annually is set, as in addition to the preceding classes, those admitted include returning Japanese and their families.
3. Fiscal	Adult	Adult	Children	year	Males	Females	under 18	Total;1924-25..	182	269	50	5011925-26..	126	205	90	4211926-27..	115	250	110	475


CANADA GRAIN ACT-INTERPRETATION
Mr. CAMPBELL:: Has the Department of Justice yet given a reply to a question recently submitted to it by the board of grain commissioners asking for the department's interpretation of certain clauses in the Canada Grain Act?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes.


CANADA HOUSE-EMPLOYEES
Mr. NEILL :: 1.	How many regular employees are there in Canada House, London, England?
37S

Questions
2.	Of these how many are Canadiah born, or have spent five or more years, in Canada?


Ernest Lapointe: Department of External Affairs
1.	There are thirty-five regular employees in the high commissioner's office in London.
2.	Of these five are Canadian born, or have spent five or more years in Canada. Department of Health
1. 10.
2. Canadian bora 5. Records of the Department do not contain any information relative to the number of years spent in Canada by those who are not Canadian born.
Department of Immigration and Colonization
1.	62.
2.	14.
Department of Public Works
1.	14.
2.	2.
Department of the Secretary of State Office of the Custodian and the Clearing Office
1. 1.
2.	Nil.
Department of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment 1. 10.
2. Born in Canada, nil. Canadian residents for a years or more 2.
Department of Trade and Commerce
1.	5.
2.	1.


REVISION OF THE STATUTES
Mr. BLACK (Yukon):: 1. To date what has been the cost of the revision of the Dominion statutes now being
made?
o'	?re 1 ^le names of the commissioners?
*t. What has been paid to each: (a) as salary or remuneration; (b) as expenses?


Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	$123,173.49.
2.	Members ex officio, the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General: President, The Right Honourable Sir Charles Fitzpatrick,
G.C.M.G., ICC., Vice-President, E. L. New-combe, C.M.G., K.C. (to September 19, 1924), Vice-President, E. R. Cameron, K.C., Commissioners, H. H. Dewart, K.C. (deceased), E J. Daly, F. R. McD. Russell, K.C., L. A. Rivet, Alex. MacGregor.
3.
Sir Charles Fitz-	(a)
Patrick	$15,569	86H.	H. Dewart (deceased)	
1,189	50E. L. Newcombe (to Sept. 19, 1924)..	. 2,085	75

(b)

E. R. Cameron..	..	8,669	35	79	10E.	J. Daly.... 9,522	82F.	R. McD. Russell.	9,522	82	4.600	00L. A. Rivet.... 9,522	82	920	00Alex. MacGregor.	..	6,777	95	720	00


PREVENTIVE SERVICE SEIZURES
Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: 1.	What was the gross revenue deposited to the credit of the receiver general on account of customs preventive service seizures for each of the fiscal years ending March 31, 1923-1924-19251926-1927, and for the 9 months ending December 31, 1927?
2.	What was the amount of salaries and expenses, respectively, of the preventive service during each of the said periods?
3.	What was the number of officers employed during each of the said periods?


Mr. EULER:: 1. Gross revenue from Customs-Excise Preventive Service seizures during the fiscal years under-mentioned.
Fiscal	Customs	Excise	Year	Seizures	Seizures	Total1922-23.	$103,717 04	$222,717 72	$326,434 761923-24.	334,877 43	268,148 99	603,026 421924-25.	224,801 45	205,183 31	429,984 761925-26.	181,054 29	132,587 25	313,641 541926-27.	306,342 27	123,260 95	429.603 221927-28. (9 mos)	*425,788 10	*106,658 S6	532,446 96
* In addition 70,534 gallons of liquors have been seized, having a duty paid value of $830,750 50.
2. Amount of salaries and expenses respectively, of the preventive service for each of the fiscal years ended March 31, 1923, 1924, 1925, 1926, 1927, and for 9 months ended
December 31, 1927.			
Fiscal			
years	Salaries	Expenses	Total1922-23.	$113,433 21	$120,789 93	$ 234,223 141923-24.	118,004 93	169,201 51	287,206 441924-25.	167,546 19	149,121 28	316,667 471925-26.	216,900 95	169,757 06	386,658 011926-27.	285,842 27	317,299 13	603.141 409 mos. to Dec. 31,	1927. . .	392,136 12	718,135 49	1,110,271 61
3. Number of employees in preventive service (including boats) during fiscal years 1922-23, 1923-24, 1924-25, 1925-26, 1926-27, and the first nine months of 1927-28:
1922-	23	1271923-	24	
1701924-	25	
1861925-	26	
2991926-	27	'.400First 9 months of 1927-28	
662
40 00

Questions


UNDESIRABLE PUBLICATIONS
Mr. ALLAN:: What steps are being taken by our government to suppress or prevent undesirable publications from entering Canada?


Ernest Lapointe: Department of National Revenue
Section 11 of the Canada Customs Tariff, 1907, provides that;-"The importation into Canada of any goods enumerated, described or referred to in schedule C to this act is prohibited; and any such goods imported shall thereby become forfeited to the crown and shall be destroyed or otherwise dealt with as the Minister of Customs directs; and any person importing any such prohibited goods, or causing or permitting them to be imported, shall for each offence incur a penalty not exceeding two hundred1 dollars."
Item 1201, schedule "C" of the Customs Tariff, 1907, classifies as prohibited goods:- "Books, printed paper, drawings, paintings, prints, photographs, or representations of any kind of a treasonable or seditious, or of an immoral or indecent character."
Collectors or other customs officers seize goods which are obviously immoral or indecent, and if their importation is general, as in the case of a publication, a circular is issued prohibiting its importation into Canada. Imported publications, concerning which doubt exists, are forwarded to the department by collectors, and other persons, and are carefully examined. If found to be of the character set forth in item 1201 of the tariff, they are prohibited.
Post Office Department Undesirable publications are being prohibited transmission in the mails under paragraph (d) subsection 1 of section 9 of the Post Office Act as amended in 1913.


PF.NETANGUISHENE WHARF
Mr. THOMPSON:: 1.	What amount was expended by the government in 1927 on the Penetanguisliene wharf?
2.	To whom were the several amounts paid, and for what purposes?


Mr. ELLIOTT:: 1.	*1,483.20.
2.	Frank Payette, $348 for services as foreman; Joseph Robillard, $120 for services as carpenter; Joseph Desrochers, $55 for services as carpenter; H. Robillard, $8 for services as labourer; Alfred Lacroix, $8 for services as labourer; Andrew Marion, $78 for services as labourer; Joseph Butman, $16 for services as
labourer; H. Lortie, $16 for services as labourer; John Desrochers, $5 for services as carpenter; M. A. Gendron, $33.10 for hardware; The C. Beck Mfg. Go. Limited, $391.34 for lumber; The McGibbon Lumber Co., Ltd., $58.97 for lumber; P. Payette Co., $315.64 for timber; Adjutor Gignac, $30.15 for black-smithing.


CATTLE-RESTRICTED AREAS
Mr. CAYLEY:: 1.	How many restricted areas have been established in Ontario, and where?
2.	How manv cattle in each area?
3.	What are the conditions governing establishment of a restricted area?


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: 1.	The entire county of Prince Edward and that part of Murray township in the county of Northumberland, which lies south of the Murray canal and adjacent to the county of Prince Edward.
2.	24,184.
3.
(1)	Upon receipt of a request from the government of any province and upon compliance with the provisions of these regulations the government of Canada will, whenever it appears desirable to the Minister of Agriculture so to do, assist in the eradication of bovine tuberculosis from a restricted area in the manner hereinafter provided.
(2)	Applications may be made to the Dominion Department of Agriculture by the Minister of Agriculture of the provincial government, stating that the province is desirous of federal aid in the eradication of bovine tuberculosis from a restricted area, upon and subject to the provisions of these regulations, and stating: (a) the location and boundaries of the proposed area; (b) the approximate number of cattle within it; (c) that a majority consisting of at least two-thirds of the cattle owners in the proposed area are in favour of having their cattle tested for the eradication of tuberculosis, and (d) that the provincial government whenever requested by the federal department of agriculture will assist in the enforcement of these regulations by conducting prosecutions of persons accused of obstructing or refusing to assist federal inspectors engaged in the work of testing cattle, and persons who, in any way, refuse to obey the regulations made hereunder.
(3) Upon the approval of the federal Minister of Agriculture of any such application, a proclamation may be published in the Canada Gazette constituting the proposed area a restricted area within the meaning of these
Questions

regulations, whereupon all provisions of these regulations shall apply to said restricted area.
(4)	The said area shall be a quarantined1 area in so far as bovine tuberculosis is concerned. Cattle may only be moved into or out of the area under the following conditions:-
(a)	Fully accredited cattle accompanied' by a certificate of a veterinary inspector may enter the area without test.
(b)	Cattle from herds under the supervision of the health of animals branch for the eradication of tuberculosis may enter the area without test if accompanied by a certificate signed by a veterinary inspector showing the date of the last test.
(c)	Other cattle intended to remain within the area shall be subjected to the tuberculin test by a veterinary inspector or approved veterinarian before admittance to the area.
(d)	Cattle for entry into the area for exhibition purposes or other temporary stay, not covered by sections (a) and (b) shall be subjected to the tuberculin test by a veterinary inspector or approved' veterinarian before admittance to the area.
(e)	Cattle for immediate slaughter consigned to approved slaughter-houses only may be brought into the area without test, but shall not be allowed to come in contact with other cattle and shall be kept isolated on the premises until slaughtered.
(0 Cattle in transit across the area by rail shall not be unloaded except at a point designated for that purpose where they may be kept from contact with other cattle within the 4 area.
(g) Cattle shall not be driven across the area by road unless special permission has been obtained in writing from the Veterinary. Inspector in charge of the area.
(5)	Owners of cattle within the area will be lequired to assist the veterinary inspectors making the test by assembling the cattle when requested and giving whatever additional help as may be reasonably expected. Owners when requested must furnish meals and bed for the inspector while conducting the test.
(6)	Suitable transportation from farm to farm within the area for the officers of the health of animals branch must be provided by the provincial government.
(7)	Use of syndicate or joint bulls will be permitted in herds that are equally free from disease but not otherwise. For instance a bull from a herd that has contained reactors shall not be used in a herd that has passed a clean test.

(8)	All cattle within the area shall be submitted to the tuberculin test as soon as practicable by veterinary inspectors or accredited veterinarians*; and shall be retested whenever deemed necessary by the veterinary director general.
(9)	Reactors to the test shall be marked for identification and shall be disposed of by slaughter under inspection forthwith. '
(10; Compensation for reactors slaughtered by order of the veterinary inspector duly authorized under the act may be granted as provided in sections 6 and 7 of the Animal Contagious Diseases Act.
(11)	Compensation will not be paid for reacting grade bulls, steers, or animals affected with lumpy jaw.
(12)	The feeding of animals within a restricted area on by-products of cheese factories, skimming stations and butter factories is prohibited, unless the said by-products have first been sterilized by heat.
An accredited veterinarian for the purposes of these regulations means a veterinary practitioner authorized by the veterinary director . general to conduct tests under the regulations of the health of animals branch.


PRINCE RUPERT PUBLIC BUILDING
Mr. BRADY:: 
Mr. ELLIOTT:: 1.	Yes.
2.	(a) Mrs. Cora E. Black; (b) Five years from June 1, 1927.
3.	$6,540.
4.	June 1, 1932.
5.	(a) Yes; (b) June 1, 1927.
6.	The various departments interested.
7.	Answered by No. 5.


BUTTER AND CHEESE IMPORTS
Mr. MacNUTT:: 1. What is the total quantity of butter: (a) imported into Canada from Australia and New Zealand since the signing of the Australian treaty; (b) what quantities were imported into each province since the signing of the treaty?

Questions
2.	What is the total quantity of cheese imported into Canada from Australia and New Zealand since the signing of the treaty: (a) what quantities were imported into each province since the signing of the treaty?
3.	When was the dumping clause applied to these products ?
4.	On what date, if any, did the dumping
clause cease to exist?


Mr. EULER:: 1 and 2:
Statement of Imports of Butter and Cheese From Australia and New Zealand Entered for Consumption in Each Province of Canada From October 1st, 1925, to January 31st, 1928.
Item and Province	Oct. 1st, 1925, to Mar. 31st, 1926	Apr. 1st, 1926, to Mar. 31st, 1927	Apr. 1st, 1927, to Jan. 31st, 1928	Total, Oct. 1st, 1925, to Jan. 31st, 1928Butter: From Australia:-	Lb. 222,376 28,056 445,648 1,081,528 56.000 84.000 567,894	Lb.	Lb.	Lb. 222,376 28,056 956,480 1,275,000 84.000 84.000 970,786
411,544 151,472 28,000	99,288 42,000	
				
				
				
		210,308	192,584	
				
	2,485,502	801,324	333,872	3,620,698
From New Zealand:-				
		266,000 548,744 1,138,200	219,738 359,034 1,763,531 68,600 195,946 4,288,265	485,738 2,775,778 2,957,443 68,600 235,665 8,619,392
	868,000 55,712			
				
				
	39,719 1,379,535			
		2,951,592		
				
	2,342,966	4,904,536	7,895,114	15,142,616
Cheese: From Australia:-				
	270	18	3,132	3,420
				
	270	18	3,132	3,420
From New Zealand:-				
		15	137,441	137,456
				
		15	137,441	137,456
				
				
3.	The Department ascertained first in February, 1926, that butter imported from Australia was subject to dumping duty on account of the application of the Patterson scheme which became effective in Australia January 1st, 1926. Instructions were then issued as to the assessment of special duty on such importations. The department has no record of the application of dumping duty to butter from New Zealand, or cheese from Australia or New Zealand.
4.	Section 6 of the customs tariff, 1907, is still in force.


HARTLAND, N.B. POSTMASTERSHIP
Mr. JONES:: 1.	Who were applicants to the Post Office department or to the Civil Service Commission
for the position of postmaster at Hartland, New Brunswick, rendered vacant by the death of postmaster J. E. McCollom?
2.	By what persons or organizations was each applicant recommended?
3.	Who, if any, of such applicants were returned soldiers?
4.	What applicants were appointed or recommended by the Civil Service Commission?
5.	Which recommendations or appointments were rejected by the Post Office department, and on what grounds?
6.	Which appointment or recommendation was accepted by the Post Office department?
7.	Did anybody consult personally, or by letter, rvith the Postmaster General or Post Office department at Ottawa in reference to such applications, and if so, on behalf of what applicant or applicants?
8.	If so, what grounds were presented by said party or parties on behalf of such applicant?
Questions

9.	Was any recommendation made to the said party or parties to the postmaster general, or to any official of his department on behalf of any applicant by the liberal committee at said Hartland ?


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Sarah Catherine Currie.
Edward Wallace Laskey.
J. Stirling King.
Edward Albert Britton.
Frank Hagerman.
2.	E. A. Britton-Kenneth W. Keith.
O.	I. Clark.
J. U. Montgomery.
Frank A. Acton.
A. G. Baker.
Rev. C. LeRoi Mooers. Major H. Priest-man.
Miss S. C. Currie-W. Steadman Smith.
Kenneth W. Keith.
I.	A. J. Ward.
M. L. Hayward.
A. G. Dickinson.
R. J. Potts.
F. Hage-rman-H. Ward Ginson.
A. F. Campbell.
C. J. Dunphy.
Albion R. Foster.
J. S. King-A. E. Plumer.
M. G. Harmer.
George Jackson.
E. W. Laskey-Garnett W. Birmingham. C. G. Anslow.
Wendal P. Tedlie.
H. N. Boyer.
F. E. Sayre.
A. D. McCain.
3.	Edward Albert Britton.
4.	Edward Albert Britton.
Sarah Catherine Currie.
Edward Wallace Laskey.
5.	(a) Edward Albert Britton. Unsuitable on account of age and in interest of public service; (b) Sarah Catherine Currie. Unsuitable.
6.	Edward Wallace Laskey.
7.	Postmaster General consulted parties in Hartland regarding Mr. Britton and Sarah C. Currie.
8.	Representations were received to the effect that Mr. Britton and Sarah C. Currie were unsuitable on grounds of age or of character or general qualifications.
9.	Yes.


NARCOTIC DRUGS
[Stage Direction]
Mr. ANDERSON (Halton} :
1. How many physicians were convicted for violation of the Opium and Narcotic Drug Act, in each province, during the year 1927?

2.	How many physicians were convicted through the use of drug addicts as spotters?
3.	How many drug addicts are there in the employ of the Department of Health as detectives under the act?
Mr. KING (Kootenay):: 1.
Quebec	 4
Ontario	 10
Alberta	 1
Total	 15
2.	None. Agents are not employed who are known to be using narcotics at the time of engagement and, should it be subsequently learned or suspected that such an agent is addicted to narcotics, every effort is made to restrain the usage until the case or cases under investigation are completed, when he is immediately released.
If an agent is engaged who is known or even suspected of having, at some previous time, been so addicted, he is placed in the hands of an experienced and reliable officer of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and works entirely under his immediate supervision, and his movements and actions are checked by police officers, who give corroborative evidence when required.
3.	None.


TELEPHONE COMPANIES-TAXES
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What federal taxes does the Bell Telephone Company pay per annum?
2.	What federal taxes does the provincial owned government telephone systems pay (a) in Manitoba, (b) in Saskatchewan, (e) in Alberta?


William Daum Euler: It is contrary to the practice of the department to give information which would disclose the business of an individual concern.


CORICERY, ONT., RURAL MAIL ROUTE
Mr. GARLAND (Carleton):: 1.	What is the name of the contractor who has the contract for carrying mail on Corkery rural route No. 1, in the county of Carleton?
2.	What were the names of those who tendered for this work and the amount of their respective tenders?
3.	When does the contract expire?
4.	WTill tenders be called for at the expiration of the present contract?
5.	What complaints, if any, were made to the department during the last twelve months regarding delivery under the present contractor ?


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Wm. J. Egan.
2.	Tenders were last invited for this service in January, 1920, when the following were

Questions
received: Michael Kennedy, Corkery, $900 per annum; Frank Forrest, Corkery, $1,000 per annum, provided post office was transferred to his charge.
The contract which was awarded to Michael Kennedy at $900 per annum has since, by regular transfers and renewals, passed into the hands of Wm. J. Egan.
3.	March 31, 1932.
4.	As this contract has still four years to run, the probable action on its expiration has not yet received consideration.
5.	Only one complaint on file into which inquiry was instituted and adjustment made.


IMPERIAL TOBACCO COMPANY
Mr. DENIS (St. Denis):: 1.	What quantity of tobacco was manufactured by the Imperial Tobacco Company during the year 1927?
2.	Under what' classification were these tobaccos manufactured?
3.	What was the quantity of tobacco manufactured in each class?
4.	What are the excise duties on each class of tobacco manufactured?


William Daum Euler: It is contrary to the practice of the department to give information which would disclose the business of an individual concern.


GREAT LAKES SHIPPING CONDITIONS
Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has the attention of the government been called to the following despatch in Evening Telegram. Toronto. Wednesday, February 8, 1928, as follows: the National Association of Marine Engineers of the great lakes district, in convention at the Walker House to-day. will make an effort to determine the cause and blame for conditions existing in shipping circles upon the great lakes, why some of the largest Canadian bulk freighters and the largest on the great lakes are tied up in dock for as long as three months during the summer season, while American shipping interests practically monopolize the bulk of trade?
2.	If so, what is the situation?
3.	What steps will the government take to protect Canadiarf bulk freighters?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should like to draw attention to the wording of this question. The hon. member asks whether the attention of the government has been called to a certain despatch in the Evening Telegram, Toronto, of Wednesday, February 8th, 1928. I would say in regard to questions of the kind that it is really impossible for the government to give an answer that would be at all satisfactory. A newspaper item is a matter of general interest. Members of the government may have their attention drawn to particular items, but it can seldom be said that the government has its attention drawn
to items in the press. So far as giving information to the house is concerned, a specific question should be asked, and if that is done it will be answered in so far as it is possible or deemed advisable to give the information; but it is impossible satisfactorily to answer questions which relate simply to newspaper items.


John Frederick Johnston: Dropped.


RIDEAU CANAL RETAINING WALL
Mr. GARLAND (Carleton):: 1.	What has been the cost up to the 1st of February of the new Rideau Canal retaining wall at Ottawa?
2.	How many men were employed on this work ?
3.	Who recommended the men so employed?
4.	What are the necessary qualifications for a man desirous of securing employment on this work, and what steps does he have to take in order to secure employment?


Mr. DUNNING:: 1.	$175,500.
2.	376.
3.	Members of parliament for the city and district.
4.	Physical fitness and the recommendation referred to in answer No. 3.


PACIFIC GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY
Mr. TOLMIE:: 1.	Have any negotiations taken place or are negotiations now pending for the acquisition of the Pacific Great Eastern Railway by the government of Canada or the Canadian National Railways?
2.	If so, what progress has been made?


Mr. DUNNING:: 1.	As a result of representations made at the Dominion-provincial conference, the president of Canadian National Railways has been requested to investigate the railway problems presented by several provinces, including British Columbia, in relation to possible acquisition by Canadian National Railways.
2.	Answered by No. 1.



QUESTIONS PASSED AS ORDERS FOR RETURNS


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	What was the total number of bushels of Canadian grains of different kinds that passed through Welland canal eastbound during season of navigation 1927?
2.	What was the total number of bushels of Canadian grains of different kinds unloaded at Buffalo during season of navigation 1927?
3.	What was the total number of bushels of Canadian grain of different kinds unloaded at Georgian bay ports during the season of navigation 1927?
3S4

Questions as Orders for Returns
4.	What was the total number of bushels of Canadian grain of different kinds shipped by water from the ports of Port Arthur and Fort William, and Duluth, eastbound, during the Reason of navigation 1927?
5.	What was the total number of bushels of Canadian grain of all kinds exported from the ports of Montreal and Quebec during season of navigation 1927?
6.	What was the total number of bushels of American grain of all kinds exported from the ports of Montreal during the season of navigation 1927?



RIDEAU HALL

Mr. WOODS WORTH:: What public moneys have been expended for the past ten years for the maintenance of the governor-generalship, classified as salaries, upkeep of Rideau Hall, travelling expenses, general expenses, etc?



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-FUNDED DEBT IMMIGRATION REGULATIONS-MEDICAL EXAMINATION

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	Has any change been made in immigration regulations in countries where medical examinations of immigrants are made?
2.	If so, what are the changes, who authorized the same and why?
3.	To what countries do the new regulations apply, (a) in Great Britain, (b) the United States, (c) the continent of Europe?
4.	Does the said new examination apply to (a) Germany, and (b) Italy?



JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

Mr. NEILL:: 1.	How many Japanese landed in Canada for the first time, according to Canadian government returns, during the calendar year 1927?
2.	At what ports did they land?
3.	How were they classified as to:	(a)
occupation; (b) sex ?


Mr. WHITE (Mount Royal):: What amount, if any, of the funded debt of the Canadian National railways is included in the debt of the Dominion, as published monthly in The Canada Gazette?



WHEAT GRADES-WESTERN INSPECTION DIVISION

Mr. COOTE:: What number of cars of wheat of each grade were inspected at each inspection office in the western inspection division from October 1, 1927, to December 31, 1927?



CUSTOMS PROTECTIVE SERVICE-VESSELS

Mr. CANTLEY:: 1.	How many vessels were employed in the customs protective service in maritime provincial waters during the calendar year 1927?
2.	What are the names, type and dimensions of such vessels?
3.	What number of seizures of vessels were made during 1927, what were the names of such vessels seized and how were they disposed
of?
4.	What was the value of spirits, and of goods seized on such vessels during 1927?
5.	What was the cost of operation of the fleet of vessels employed in the customs protective service in the maritime provincial waters during the calendar year 1927?
5.	What vessels were added to the service during 1927, by whom built and what dimension and type?
7.	How many of said vessels are the property of the department, what names or numbers are they known by?
S.	What vessels employed in said service are chartered or hired, and what are their dimensions. type and hire rate?
9.	How many additional vessels will be placed
in the service during 1928, and what will be their dimensions, type, where built, by whom and at what cost?	'
10.	Are any vessels for the customs protect-mve service now on order?
11.	If so, of what dimensions, type, and where are they being built and at what cost?



CHINESE IMMIGRATION

Mr. NEILL:: 1.	How many Chinese landed in Canada for the first time, according to Canadian government returns, during the calendar year 1927?
2.	Of .those entering how many came as: (a) members of the diplomatic service and their servants; (b) merchants; (c) students; (d) under section 9, chapter 38 of the Chinese Immigration Act, 1923 (permits) ?
3.	What was the classification as to occupation of those admitted under said section 9, chapter 38?
4.	During the year were any existing permits renewed or extended for a further period, and if so, how many and for what further period?



IMMIGRATION-ASSISTED PASSAGES

Mr. CLARK:: 1.	To what countries is an assisted passage available?
2.	How many immigrants, specifying country of origin, has Canada secured under the system of assisted passage by years?
3.	What is the total cost to the immigrant of an assisted passage?
4.	What has been the total cost to Canada by reason of the system of assisted passage?
5.	What is the cost of transportation To an immigrant other than one given assisted passage, from (a) Copenhagen, *(b) London, (c) Blaine, U.S.A., to (a) Edmonton, (b) Vancouver ?
6.	What assistance is given to last mentioned immigrants in locating and acquiring lands (a) financially, (b) otherwise?
7.	What is the cost of transportation to a Canadian residing in (a) Halifax, (b) Vancouver, who desires to locate on land in the vicinity of Edmonton?
8.	Is any assistance given by the government ot Canada to Canadians desirous of settling upon the country's vacant land (a) linancially. (b) in location of lands, (c) in acquiring of lands (d) otherwise?
vv nat proportion ot immigrants, specifying country of origin, have settled upon agri-
?d)tU192C;7e)	1923' (b) 1924>
(<=>
1925,

Questions as Orders jor Returns
10.	What proportion of the last mentioned immigrants have remained upon agricultural lands?
11.	What proportion of all immigrants coming into Canada for the years reierred to in paragraph 9 have remained in Canada?



SOLDIER SETTLEMENT

Mr. CLARK:: 1.	Has the Department of Immigration or other department of the public service sent representatives of the soldier settlement board to Great Britain?
2.	If so, for what purpose?
3.	How many representatives have been sent and from what provinces?
4.	Are such representatives instructed to secure settlers for lands vacated by ex-service men settled pursuant to the provisions of the Soldier Settlement Act?
5.	Are lands formerly occupied by soldier settlers disposed of to new settlers on terms more favourable than those enjoyed by the former soldier settlers?
6.	Are ex-servioe Canadians not now on the land given a prior opportunity of settling the last mentioned lands upon the terms offered the new settler?
7.	Are loans available to-day to ex-sorvice Canadians desirous of settling upon the land?
IMMIGRATION, 1921-27 Mr. CHURCH:
1.	What number of immigrants arrived in Canada during the years 1921-1927, (a) from Great Britain, (b) the continent of Europe, and (c) the United States?
2.	What sums of money during these years were spent on each of the above-mentioned classes?



DOMINION REVENUE AND SUBSIDIES

Mr. CHURCH:: 1.	What was the total revenue of the government from all sources for the last year of record ?
2.	What subsidies and other payments were paid to the various provinces the last year of record?
3.	What portion of this estimated cash revenue is contributed by each of the nine provinces and the respective amounts from each province ?
4.	After deducting cash subsidies from actual cash contributions of each province to federal revenues, what is the rate per capita on the last census per province of cash taxes paid per head, and what net cash taxes are paid by each province ?



UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS


Mr. CHEVRIER:: For a return showing:

1.	The number of contributors to superannuation fund No. 1 as of date 1st December, 1927.
2.	The number of contributors to superannu-tion fund No. 2 as of date 1st December, 1927.
3.	The number of contributors to superannuation fund No. 5 as of date 1st December, 1927.
4.	The number of contributors to the retirement fund as of date 1st December, 1927.
5.	The number of former contributors to superannuation fund No. 1 who are now contributing to Fund No. 5.
6.	The number of former contributors to superannuation fund No. 2 who are now contributing to Fund No. 5.
7.	The number of former contributors to the retirement fund who are now contributing to fund No. 5.
8.	The amount standing to the credit of
superannuation fund No.	2	as	of	date	1st
December, 1927.
9.	The amount standing to the credit of
superannuation fund No.	5	as	of	date	1st
December, 1927.
10.	The amount standing to the credit of the retirement fund as of date 1st December, 1927.
11.	The amount voted by parliament as contribution to superannuation fund No. 2 for fiscal year ending 31st March, 1927.
12.	The total amount provided by parliament as contributions of employer to superannuation fund No. 5 since that fund was established.
13.	The amount voted by parliament as contributions of employer to superannuation fund No. 5 for the fiscal year ending the 31st of March, 1927.
14.	The total disbursements on account of gratuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for the year ending 31st of March, 1927.
15.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
gratuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for period from 31st March, 1927, to 1st December, 1927.
16.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
annuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for the year ending 31st March, 1927.
17.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
annuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for the period from the 31st of March, 1927, to 1st of December, 1927.
18.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
superannuation fund No. 1 for the year ending 31st of March, 1927.
19.	The total disbursements from superannuation fund No. 2 for the year ending 31st of March, 1927.	,
20.	The total amount of interest paid by the government for the use of the amount at the credit of superannuation fund No. 5 during the fiscal year ending 31st of March, 1927.



EXPORT OF ELECTRIC POWER

Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: 1.	For a copy of all orders in council relating to the exportation of electric power.
2.	Of all leases and renewals thereof containing provisions relating to the exportation of electric power.
3.	Of all regulations passed by the governor in council relating to the exportation of electric power.



RAILWAY BELT WATER ACT

Mr. FRASER:: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports and memoranda exchanged between the government of Canada and the government of British Columbia or any official or officials of either or both governments, relating to amendments to the Railway Belt Water Act, section 5, chapter 15, statutes of 1926.



Questions as Orders for Returns



CANADIAN GOVERNMENT STEAMERS-BUNKERING

Mr. SMITH (Cumberland):: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, reports, resolutions and agreements, or other documents exchanged between any government department, member of the government, or government official at Ottawa; with anyone in the city of Halifax, or elsewhere in the province of Nova Scotia, during 1927; and up to the present in 1928, on the matter or subject of the fueling or bunkering of Canadian government steamers (not the C.G.M.M.).



GRADING OF LIVE STOCK ETC.

Mr. KENNEDY:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, reports and other documents received by the department of Agriculture or any other department of the government of Canada since January 1, 1927, relating to the grading of live stock or live stock products for home or export markets or to the Legislation proposed or passed regarding live stock and live stock products in the session of 1927.



CLEARING OF LAND BY FIRE

Donald MacBeth Kennedy: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, and other documents in the custody of the Department of the Interior or other department of the government, relating to the clearing of land by fire.



ROCKFORD, SASK., POST OFFICE

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the removal of the post office of Rockford, Saskatchewan, from the residence of Mrs. M. Montgomery to that of Mr. M. Weightman.



MALONECK, SASK., POST OFFICE

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the removal of the post office of Maloneck, Saskatchewan, from the residence of Mr. W. S. Jones to another part of the district.



SAINT FRONT, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the dismissal of Joseph Lalonde from the position of postmaster at Saint Front, Saskatchewan, and in connection with the appointment of his successor.



POPLAR BLUFF, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the dismissal of Mr. W. Stasink from the position of postmaster at Poplar Bluff, Saskatchewan, and the removal of the office from the original location.
Fraser.]



HYAS, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the proposed change in the position of postmaster at Hyas, Saskatchewan.



FORT PELLY, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, and other documents in connection with the dismissal of J. Schram from the position of postmaster at Fort Pelly, Saskatchewan, on the charge of political partisanship; and also all similar papers in connection with the appointment of his successor.



GOVERNMENT REPORTS-PUBLICATION IN FRENCH AND ENGLISH

Mr. PARENT:: For a return showing:-[DOT]
1.	A list of the various government reports published in the English language only.
2.	A list of the various government reports published in only one of the two official languages.
3.	The number, title of publication and place where printed, giving the name of the department responsible for the printing and publication, including engraving and photographs.



SOUTH SAULT RAPIDS DAM

Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, resolutions, orders in council, reports or other documents in the custody of any department of the government of Canada or of the joint International Waterways Commission, in any way relating to the construction or maintenance of a dam in the South Sault rapids of the river St. Lawrence between Barnhart island and the main shore of said river, in the state of New York.



DIVERSION OF WATER AT MASSENA, N.Y.

Hugh Alexander Stewart: For a copy of all correspondence, telegrams, orders in council, reports, resolutions, agreements or other documents, in the custody of any department of the government of Canada or of the joint International Waterways Commission, in any way relating to the diversion of *water for power purposes at or near Massena, in the state of New York.



JUDGES' SALARIES AND PENSIONS

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of the memorandum presented to the government by the county and district court judges recently, in connection with their appeal for an increase of salary and the granting of a pension.



NUT MOUNTAIN, SASK., POSTMASTERSHIP

Milton Neil Campbell: For a copy of all letters, correspondence, and other documents in connection with the dis-

National Banking-Mr. Woodsworth
missal of Mr. H. Stevens from the position of postmaster at Nut Mountain, Saskatchewan, on the charge of political partisanship, and also in connection with the appointment of his successor.



NATIONAL SYSTEM OF BANKING

Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the time has come for the establishment of a national system of banking.	[DOT]
He said: Mr. Speaker, in 1925 I moved a resolution looking in the direction of such action in these words:
That, in the opinion of this house, it is not in the interests of the country at large that the privilege of issuing currency and of controlling financial credit should be granted to private corporations.
In 1926 I moved a resolution similar in terms to that now under discussion. I recognize very [DOT] clearly that a fully developed system of national banking is not immediately practicable. In fact, the terms of my resolution have been criticized by some of my friends as suggesting that we would at once wipe out all private banks. That is by no means the thought behind the resolution. On the other hand, some have suggested that we already have a national banking system. But I do not think that it will1 seriously be contended that the present system is "national" in the sense of being nationally controlled. My resolution would look to a larger measure of control of the existing chartered banks, and more than that, towards more widespread public banking facilities. In my speech two years ago in support of the resolution I then moved I said that it seemed to me there were certain measures which might be adopted. First of all, currency should be issued by the government. Secondly, our postal savings banks should be developed and modernized and freed from red tape. Thirdly, the provincial savings banks might be given full banking privileges. Fourthly, there should be larger facilities for cooperative credit. Fifthly, a central bank board should be created.
Now, Mr. Speaker, it would seem to me that it is in this last direction we must look if we would make a beginning in a thoroughgoing system of national banking. It is quite possible that with the enlargement of the functions of the present treasury board we might be able to work out a central bank board which would be responsible for the issue of currency and would become a bank of re-discount. I might say that at the present time there is considerable agitation in Great Britain for the nationalization of 56103-25i
the Bank of England, which we all recognize is there functioning as a central bank, but is still under private control.


Mr. SANDERSON:: Would the hon. member permit a question? For my own information I should like to know wherein his scheme of a national banking system differs from our present system of banking?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I will devote the
next half hour to an explanation of that point.
I would respectfully ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) to allow this resolution, if possible, to go before the banking and commerce committee. I have no clear cut and dogmatic scheme to propose to the house at this moment; it does not seem to me that this would be wise. I will say however that there is a very widespread feeling in the country that some better means should be devised than that which exists just now for affording the public wider banking facilities and more properly controlling the issuance of currency and re-discounting. Policies with regard to these matters might be worked out in committee.
In answer to the question just put to me, I should like to submit some of the consider^ ations which have led me to urge this step. The need for a national control of our financial system arises first of all from the concentration of financial and industrial control which today places our resources very largely in the hands of comparatively few individuals or corporations. In 1922 information was placed on Hansard by Mr. Andrew McMaster showing how fifteen men controlled corporations with assets amounting to $4,285,000,000. The total assets of the four largest banks in Canada-the Bank of Montreal, the Royal Bank of Canada, the Bank of Nova Scotia and the Canadian Bank of Commerce-on November -30, 1927, were given at $2,529,488,192. I have in my hand a list of the directorates of these four big 'banks. This list was prepared by Mr. J. McA. Conner of Toronto and I notice that on the boards of these four banks there are ninety-two directors, these directors averaging fourteen directorates each: that is to say, each man, on the average, is a director on fourteen boards. The outstanding example is that of Sir Herbert Holt, who is becoming a sort of Canadian Stinnes, branching out into almost every department of industry and commerce.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: Why not?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am not blaming
him for so doing- I fancy many other men would be glad to do likewise. I am merely stating facts as they exist and as revealed by this list, which as Mr. Conner says, is not
388	COMMONS
National Banking-Mr. Woodsworth
complete but subject to constant revision. With the consent of the house I would ask that this list in so far as it relates to Sir Herbert Holt be incorporated in Hansard. It shows altogether some 135 directorates:
Royal Bank of Canada.
Sir Herbert Holt.
Montreal Light, Heat & Power Consolidated. Montreal Light Heat & Power Co.
Montreal Gas Co.
The Eoyal Electric Co.
Montreal & St. Lawrence Light & Power Co.
Imperial Electric Co.
Lachine Eapids Hydraulic A Land Co. Citizens Light & Power Co.
Temple Electric Co.
Standard Light & Power Co.
Provincial Light, Heat & Power Co.
Cedar Eapids Mfg. Co.
Merchants Light Heat & Power Co. Quebec-New England Hydro. Elec. Corp. Dominion Light & Power Co.
St. Pauls Electric Light & Power Co. Montreal Electric Co.
The Shawinigan Water & Power Co. Canadian Carbide Co.
Can. Electric Product Co.
Shawinigan Engineering Co.
North Shore Power Co.
Electric Service Corp.
Laval Electric Co.
Continental Heat & Light Co.
Athabasca Water & Power Co.
Shawinigan Falls Terminal Ey. Co.
Three Eivers Traction Co.
St. Francis Water & Power Co.
Sorel Light & Power Co.
St. Maurice Power Co.
Thetford Mines Electric Co.
Beauharnois Electric Co.
Portneuf Hydro Electric Co.
Consolidated Electric Products Co.
The United Securities Ltd.
The Montreal Tramways.
The Montreal Land & Development Co.
The Miacet Chemical Corp.
The Montreal Hydro Electric Co.
The Canadian Light & Power Co.
The Consolidated Securities Ltd.
Port Alfred Pulp & Paper Co.
Wayagmack Pulp & Paper Co.
Wayagmaek News Co.
The Anticosti Corporation.
The Fort William Paper Co.
The Hillcrest Collieries Ltd.
The Holt Eenfrew Co. Ltd.
The Hydro Electric Bond & Share Corp.
The Investment Bond & Share Corp.
The Kamanistiqua Power Co. Ltd.
The Canadian National Corp. Ltd.
The Canadian General Electric Co.
The Canadian Allis Chalmers Co.
The Dominion Bridge Co. Ltd.
The National Bridge Co. of Canada.
The llobb Engineering Works (Amherst N.S.).
The Canadian Tillsoil Farm Motors Ltd.
The Dominion Textile Co. Ltd.
Dominion Cotton Mills Ltd.
The Montmorency Cotton Co.
The Merchants Cotton Co.
The Colonial Bleaching & Printing Co.
The Mount Eoyal Mill Co.
The Famous Players Canadian Corp.

The St. Maurice Valley Corp.
The Canada Paper Co.
The Belgo-Canadian Paper Co. Ltd.
The Canadian Pacific Railway Co.
Can. Pacific Express Co.
Alberta Yards Co.
Esquimalt & Nanaimo Ey. Co.
Spokane International Ey. Co.
Coeur D'Alene & Pend D'Oreille Ry. Co. Chateau Frontenac Hotel Co.
Quebec Central Ry. Co.
Montreal & Atlantic Railway Co.
St. John Bridge Ry. & Extension Co.
The Hull Electric Ry. Co.
Minn. St. Paul, and Sault Ste. Marie Ey. Duluth, South Shore At. Ry. Co.
Wisconsin Central Ry. Co.
Canadian Pacific Steamboats Co.
The Consolidated Mining & Smelting Co. of Canada.
The Henry Gardiner Co. Ltd.
A. Cameron Co. Ltd.
War Eagle Cons-Mining & Devel. Co. Ltd. Centre Star Mining Co.
St. Eugene Consolidated Mining Co.
The Eossland Power Co.
Phoenix Amalgamated Copper Mines Ltd. Fort Steel Mining & Smelting Co. Ltd.
Le Eoi Mining Co. (Rossland).
The Virginia & Abe Lincoln Mines Ltd. Coast Copper Co.
White Bear Mining Co.
Sunlock Mines Ltd. (Vancouver).
The West Kootenay Power & Light Co. Cascade Waterpower & Light Co.
South Kootenay Water & Power Co. Rossland Water Power Co. Ltd.
Okanagan Water & Power Co.
Northport Power & Light Co.
The Fort William Power Co.
The Monteray Railway Light Power Co. The Consolidated Gas & Electric Co. of Baltimore.
The Paton Mfg. Co.
The Ritz-Carlton Hotel Co.
The Montreal Cottons Co.
The Tucketts Tobacco Co.
The Ogilvie Flour Mills Ltd.
Tree Line Steamship Co.
The Title Guarantee & Trust Co. Ltd.
The Pennsylvania Water & Power Co.
Susquehanna Power Co.
The Price Brothers Ltd.
Quebec Pulp & Paper Mills Ltd.
The Imperial Writing Machine Co. Ltd.
The Imperial Life Assurance Co. ol Canada. The Sun Life Assurance Co. of Canada.
The Royal Bank of Canada.
The British Empire Steel Corp. Ltd.
Nova Scotia Steel & Coal.
Dom. Steel Co.
Dom. Iron & Steel Co.
Dom. Coal Co.
Sydney & Louisburg Ry. Co.
Eastern Car Co.
Dom. Shipping Co.
Acadia Coal Co.
Cumberland Ry. & Coal Co.
Halifax Shipyards Co.
Nova Scotia Land Co.
Wasses Steamboat Co.
Sydney Lumber Co.
Jas. Pender Co. Ltd.
It seems to me that when you have such vast power placed in the hands of one man or corporation it is high time that business

National Banking-Mr. Woodsworth
men generally throughout the country asked themselves whether they were getting that opportunity for development which might be afforded if there were a wider distribution of financial control. My contention is that a few men not directly responsible to the people are able to manipulate the whole of the money and credit of the country in their own interests. Perhaps we in the west feel this more keenly than do the people in eastern Canada. We all know that the two great banking centres in Canada are Toronto and Montreal. All the institutions are centred there and we often feel that industrial concerns that have their headquarters in these two cities are apt to get credit facilities that are not accorded in the same measure to other institutions with headquarters in other parts of the country. In fact, I am not so sure that throughout Canada there is not a rising feeling that Canadian money ought not to flow so easily and freely to enterprises outside the Dominion. Why should Canadian money be sent to Cuba or Mexico or various republics in South America when apparently we require money for purposes of development in this country itself?
Some hon. gentlemen may remember a rather remarkable statement made during the election of 1925 by Sir Clifford Sifton. He said:
We are rapidly approaching that condition in which two or at most three banks will be doing the whole of the business of the Dominion and you will have the spectacle of about three men sitting on the whole of the funds of the people of Canada deposited in the banks and deciding to whom they will loan these funds.
And again:
If anything would justify an armed rebellion against the established condition of affairs I think such a consummation of our banking system is the one thing that would justify it.


An hon. MEMBER:: Sedition.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Somebody suggests that this is sedition. Well, such an utterance might be seditious in the mouths of some of my comrades in the working class, but I suppose it is comparatively safe for Sir Clifford Sifton to make this statement.
I ask, in the next place, why should the banks be given the valuable franchise of issuing currency? Long ago certain people approached the great teacher of that day and asked him a question concerning taxation. He produced a penny and put this query to them:	Whose image and superscription is
this? I would produce two bank notes, first, a dollar bill, and would ask the same question: Whose is the image and superscription? And the answer?-King George's. But I
produce a ten dollar bill and when I ask the same question-whose image and superscription does this bear?-the answer is: the image and superscription of Sir Frederick Williams-Taylor and the image and superscription of Sir Vincent Meredith. In Canada, it would appear, the one dollar bill is good enough for the king, while with the fives and tens and everything higher, quite evidently, we admit the sovereignty of the money kings. There are some gentlemen in this house who sometimes upbraid us for what they regard as our lack of patriotism. Let me say to my patriotic friends to-day, "Help me to put the king's image and super scription on every bill in Canada."
I want now to pass on to a still more important consideration, namely, the control of credit. I take it that credit to-day is recognized as the life blood of trade; we cannot do business nowadays without credit. We all recognize how essential it is. And yet, as I pointed out a little while ago, credit is concentrated in the hands of comparatively few. More than that, I say that credit largely determines the purchasing power of the dollar. A few years ago a farmer said to me, "I am not going to put my money in the bank any longer; I am going to keep it in my jeans where it will be safe". I remarked, "You don't know the power of the banks. You may put your dollar into your pocket and fancy that it is safe, but when it comes out it may be worth only fifty cents". That is high class juggling, and in all seriousness it is the power which is possessed by private corporations to-day.
I wish to spend a few minutes on this economic aspect, which I know is not altogether easy; it is a technical question. It has been generally recognized that the amount of money in circulation is closely connected with the price level. Some practical bankers, absorbed in the routine of their business and thinking of currency only, are apt to take the position that changes in the price level lead to the expansion or contraction of the volume of money in circulation. Other bankers of note and most economists lay stress on the fact that the amount of money largely determines the price level. I am not going into that rather technical question, but I would quote such a leading economist as Professor Taussig, who says:
Double the quantity of money, and, other things being equal, prices will be twice as high as before and the value of money one-half. Halve the quantity of money, and other things being equal, prices will be one-half of what they w e r e before and the value of money double.
.	COMMONS
National Banking-Mr. Woodsworth


Milton Neil Campbell: That is, prices as measured in terms of money.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Yes, as we always do measure prices. When there was only gold in existence, the expanding trade of the world had to be taken care of by the discovery of new deposits of gold until the invention of bank notes came about. That helped immensely; in fact, without bank notes I do not see how the enlarged trade of the world possibly could have been taken care of. There was still the old fashioned theory that the bank notes represented gold, but during the war we learned that gold was not of any very great consequence after all, but that the quantity of bank notes might alter the cost of living. We all know what happened in Germany and Russia, and later on in France; the printing presses were set to work, and the faster the money was printed the less that money was worth, and conversely the higher the cost of living rose. So we learned that it was not merely the quantity of gold which determined the cost of living but the quantity of bank notes in circulation as well.
That is generally accepted now, but I would submit that there is a third kind of money.
I know the bankers do not like to admit that it is money, but we have very good authority for calling it such. I refer to the chequeing system, because it is by the chequeing system to-day that we do some 96 per cent of the business of Canada. Cheques function as money, and I submit that the amount of credit issued affects the price level, or in other words the purchasing power. If you put so much more gold into circulation you send prices up; if you put so many more bank notes into circulation you raise the price level, and if you extend the credit of the country without extending the volume of business you also raise the price level. This is the most important matter in this connection, yet over this extension or contraction of credit the government has absolutely no control. The only way you can increase the quantity of gold is to discover new gold fields or to improve the processes of mining; the control of bank notes comes either directly or indirectly under the government, but the extension or the contraction of credit is a matter entirely under the authority of the banks themselves.
In 1926, when this matter was last debated in this house, the hon. member for St. Law-rence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) made a contribution to the debate by "talking out" the resolution.


Mr. CAHAN:: I had only three minutes
in which to speak, if I remember correctly.
,.Mr. Woodsworth.]


James Shaver Woodsworth: Just before six
0	clock my hon. friend moved the adjournment of the debate, which he knew very well would shut off further discussion for that year. He characterized speeches from this corner of the house, presumably including my own, as "wild and irrelevant propaganda," and suggested that there was "no limit to ignorance."


Mr. CAHILL:: That was a good deal to say in three minutes.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That was indeed a lot to say in three minutes. To-day I would like to quote some authorities which I think even the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George may accept. There are a number of lawyers in this house, so perhaps we may think of this as a court room, and my srtar witness to-day is Right Hon. Reginald McKenna, chairman of the Midland bank of England, a noted banker known all over the world and one to whom, since he. has become a director of the Canadian Pacific Railway, I presume even the people in St. James street will have to listen. I would quote from his speech as I found it reported in Saturday Night under date of April 5, 1924, in which he discusses this question of trade stability as follows:
Ups and downs in trade we are bound to have but wise monetary policy can always prevent the cyclical movement from going to extremes.
He discusses the amount of money and the price level to which I referred a few moments ago, and says:
[DOT] ^ u price level be unchanged, an increase in the volume of trade will require an increase m the volume of bank credit and currency, that is to say, money.
1	said a little while ago that by "money"
I included not merely gold and bank notes but also cheques, and I would now give as my authority Mr. McKenna, who says very clearly:
I understand by it-
That is, money.
-all currency in circulation among the public and all bank deposits drawable by cheque.


Mr. MALCOLM:: Will my hon. friend
permit a question? He does not suggest that a cheque, which is merely an order to a banker to pay some money, is cash? If I heard him correctly, he quoted' Mr. McKenna as saying that bank deposits payable by cheque were money.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Quite so, but the
Minister of Trade and Commerce knows perfectly well that in commercial banking loans are classed as deposits. I think we should have that very clearly in mind. Mr. McKenna is not thinking merely of savings de-

National Banking-Mr. Woodsworth
posits but also loans which are classed as deposits. Dealing with the question of the quantity of money he says:
Under the system which prevails in our country there is only one method by which we can add to or diminish the aggregate amount of our money. Gold coin is no longer minted, and additional paper currency is not issued except to meet the demands of the public. . . The amount of money in existence varies only with the action of the banks in increasing or diminishing deposits. . . Every bank loan and every bank purchase of securities creates a deposit, and every re-payment of a bank loan and every bank sale destroys one.
He deals very specifically with the way in which we have thus given to the banks the power of really making money. He uses this phrase:
While banks have this power of creating money


Mr. H. E. SPENCER (Battle River):: Mr. Speaker, I had hoped that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) would make a statement to the house with regard to the resolution which has been placed before the house by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), and thereby save further discussion; but if he wishes first to hear it further discussed I shall be glad to submit a few words in regard to it.
The subject under discussion is I think one of the most important we have had to consider. It is a subject that now is coming before this house annually, a subject to which more and more people throughout this Dominion are giving a great deal of study. Although some six years ago when it was first brought up in the house the subject was more or less ridiculed, and the chamber was usually empty while the discussion was proceeding, I am very glad to notice that to-day quite a large number of members are becoming interested in this question.
I am interested in the resolution because it is one step towards asking the government to take some hand in the control of the credit of this country. To-day we have a monopoly in the hands of a very few men, a monopoly which is not in my opinion the best thing for any country. A monopoly is never a good thing, and a monopoly in finance is the worst of all. The recommendation, therefore, to have some sort of government

as it is erroneously called	It is a
complete and entire delusion. These "deposits"
are not "deposits" in cash at all	They are
nothing but an enormous superstructure of credit.
We should do something in the interests of the public to take away the control of credit in this country from the few in whose hands it is now centered. In this connection it is interesting to observe that this is not only a national question, it has become international in its scope, and it will be found that people the world over are taking a keen interest in solving the problem. In Great Britain you will find papers that are given solely to its study, and there is also considerable activity in Australia. Indeed it is a very live subject, and undoubtedly this house should concern itself in finding a solution.
I should like to bring to my assistance in this matter the views of a few prominent men. First let me quote Sir Charles Addis. Writing in the Edinburgh Review, of July 1918, he said:	.
The bigger the bank the greater the dangei that with the lapse of time it will become entrenched in a bed of vested interests, inimical to change, discountenancing the introduction of new ideas and discouraging the more efficient methods of young and vigorous competitors.
The late Woodrow Wilson, in his book, The New Freedom, published in 1913, wrote:
The great monopoly of this countiy-
The United States.
-is the monopoly of big credits	A great
industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all

National Banking-Mr. Spencer
our activities are in the hands of a few men
who	chill and check and destroy genuine
economic freedom.
The last authority I bring to my support is no other than the late W. E. Gladstone. We have heard him quoted a great deal by the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Bennett) and consequently I take pleasure in placing this citation on Hansard:
From the time I took office as chancellor of the exchequer I began to learn that the state held, in the face of the bank and the city, an essentially false position as to finance .... The hinge of the whole situation was this: The government itself was not to be a substantive power in matters of finance, but was to leave the money power supreme and unquestioned. In the conditions of that situation I was reluctant to acquiesce, and I began to fight against it by financial self-assertion from the first	 I was tenaciously opposed by the governor and deputy governor of the bank, who had seats in parliament, and I had the eity for an antagonist on almost every occasion.
I trust that when, the hon. Minister of Finance realizes the good company we are keeping in our quest for information on this important subject, he will not hesitate to favour this resolution going to the banking and commerce committee.
It has often been a surprise to me to hear that so much foreign capital is sought to develop Canadian industry, and I have wondered why it is necessary to go outside for this help. We know perfectly well that industry is carried on by a system of loans, those loans being made possible by the collateral that is placed at the disposal of the financial institution making the loans; that only on the basis of the collateral are loans made, and that those loans create current deposits that can be drawn on by the borrowers. Now, if this Canadian collateral is good enough for financial houses in the United States, Great Britain or elsewhere, why is it not good enough for our financial houses? Is it that the}1' are too conservative in character? If so, we cannot blame the other institutions making a harvest on the profit of these loans. But I should like to see Canadian financiers taking a little more interest in Canadian development, because the collateral is just as good a security to them as to outsiders.
I would favour some sort of a institution in the shape of a federal bank of re-discount for various reasons. Believing it would be a great boon to the country in every way, I would recommend the formation of such a bank for the following reasons:
1.	It could perform the duties now carried out by the treasury board by discounting securities of present or future banks.

2.	It could take over certain duties now carried out by the Canadian Bankers' Association witih regard to notes.
3.	It could serve the purpose of the central gold reserve.
4.	The note circulation redemption fund could be handled by it.
5.	Through it could be done all government business.
6.	It could and should issue all notes.
7.	It could take care of the work of buying and selling securities to guard against sudden inflation or deflation which is so deadly damaging to both trade and the standard of living.


James Alexander Robb: Will my hon. friend tell the house whether or not he desires the federal reserve bank to lend directly to and take deposits from the public, or does he expect it to deal with the banking system now in existence? It is important that he make that point clear, because his speech does not tally with that of the mover of the resolution. My hon. friend desires to take away from the government the business we now have under the Finance Act, while the mover of the resolution wants to give us more business.


Henry Elvins Spencer: In my opinion it should be entirely government business; it is more on the basis of the Australian bank. In conclusion, I cannot do better than quote from a speech delivered by the Right Hon. Reginald McKenna to the shareholders of the Midland bank in 1826 when advocating reform of the Bank of England. At the close of his address he said:
The subject is too large to permit of my entering into detail on an occasion like this, but I am convinced that it merits the most disinterested and painstaking investigation. An exhaustive inquiry into the principles on which a central bank should be founded and should conduct its operations would be of immense service to the public. The present system may have suited conditions in 1844, when deposit banking was in its infancy. It might conceivably suit conditions to-day, but if so only as the result of accident. It has survived for eighty years by virtue of its own .suspension in times of crisis, the phenomenal supersession of the use of currency by that of cheques, and fortuitous discoveries of gold. The vital need for the future is to ensure that the maintenance of prosperity with a growing population and ever-improving standard of living, both requiring an expansion in the volume of trade, shall not be hampered by false restrictions on the quantity of the money.


Mr. JOHN EVANS (Rosetown):: I wish
to add my voice to what has been said in support of the motion, not because I can better present the case than it has already been submitted by the mover of the resolu-

National Banking-Mr. Evans
tion (Mr. Woodsworth), and my hon. friend (Mr. Spencer). This is a business that touches the life of all industry and for that reason I wish briefly to cite some of my own experiences to show the absolute power which is placed in the hands of bankers over credit and industry to-day. In the banking system we have another of those public utilities in private hands controlled and operated for private profit, rather than for service to the people. There are in this nation many things which the people use, such as railways, the telegraph, the telephone, transportation and express services, and so forth, which Can rightly be called public utilities. And a public utility should never be in private hands to make profit for private companies; it should always be publicly owned and operated at cost. It is only on that basis that the industry of any country can assume the proportions it should when credit is free to all who may be able to use it.
Of all public utilities, I believe the banking business in private hands has become now about the most unbearable, not because it does not give service-service it does give- but from the fact that the more service it gives the more intolerable it is felt to be. It profits on the adversity of the people who have to avail themselves of it, and this is so because of the great power that comes from the concentration of wealth and industry. It is likely that the reports of the last annual meetings-I have not been able to peruse them all myself-will show that our banking system this year will make many millions of dollars of profit out of the earnings of the people, so that industry in the coming year will be so much more dependent on those who now control credit. No small business man to-day can get any moderate amount of money from the banks under about 9 per cent-and when I say 9 per cent I know exactly what I am speaking of because I am speaking from experience. It is thus that men in a small way are closed out, with the result that industry is still further concentrated in the hands of the few. Not only do these directors of industry concentrate control of business by granting or withholding credit as they see fit, but they are ever on the lookout for any renegade banking business which is not part and parcel of the banking association. I can remember when more than forty chartered banks existed in this country, when the population was indeed not over two-thirds of what it is to-day. It is quite evident that these big institutions entirely control the credit and industrial activities of the nation. When such concerns
as, for instance, the Merchants' Bank and the Bank of Hamilton of past days found it hard sailing they were taken in tow by the stronger banks. But this was not so in the cases of the Home Bank and the Farmers' Bank. In connection with the Bank of Hamilton and some others, there was no problem of compensating the depositors, as in the case of the Farmers' Bank and also the Home Bank. This latter institution was under attack from the banking combine from the time of its first appearance, and I can well remember when the Grain Grower^ Grain Company did their banking business with this bank. I can remember later on when an attempt was made to wreck both the Home Bank and the Grain Growers' Grain Company, and these two institutions were only saved at that time by the timely intervention of the Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Company, which then had representatives in this country. The Home Bank was always looked upon as a renegade and usurper by those who held the legal right, given by this parliament, to prevent the workers and farmers from using their credit, and to fleece them of their earnings. Indeed, sir, to further draw on my experience, I can clearly remember loading a car of wheat on the siding at Saskatoon, after having to wait several days and travel around a good deal before I got the car. When that car was filled I took my bill of lading to the chartered banks in that city, of which there were five at that time, and asked for an advance of $300 on that car of wheat, which was worth from $850 to $900 at least. I was refused by each of the five banks. Having returned to the bank with which I used to conduct my business, the then Bank of Hamilton, I pleaded with the manager to let me have $300 in order to meet an instalment due on a mortgage on my farm. He said, "The only thing wrong with that bill of lading is that it has the wrong name on it." My car was billed to the Grain Growers' Grain Company, which afterwards became the United Grain Growers. The manager said, "You take that back and change the name and I will give you all the money you want." I did not do so; I ran [DOT] the risk, and managed to meet my obligation only three days late.
These experiences only go to show the complete control exercised by these men over eveiy industry and activity of this nation; because the Grain Growers' Grain Company was doing business with the Home Bank, both these institutions were to be put out of business, and I was up against it. I say that banking is the business of the

National Banking

Mr. Evans
people, and it should be done by the government to a greater extent than is now the case. I think we should begin with a central government bank, to have the sole right of note issue and to provide for full discount privileges, so that the requirements of all producers could be adequately met at rates of interest which would only cover the cost. I believe this to be necessary at this time, and I want to tell this house that production on the farms of Canada is hampered to-day because of the lack of this measure. I believe we have come to the time when industry and credit and the sole control of the activities of the nation should not be left in the hands of a few private persons for their own personal benefit. It is a wrong *principle.
I believe further that a system of education should be inaugurated in order to make the people of Canada alive to this bondage which is so hampering the activities of our country. Surely it is not too much to expect that those occupying chairs of economy in our educational institutions from one end of the Dominion to the other should come forward with something worth while in language everyone can understand, but because the control of industry and credit has fallen into the hands of a few people who form such a complete ring, even the mouths of our chief educationalists have been closed for years past, and nothing is forthcoming even from our great professors of economy looking to the emancipation of the working classes and the small producers. We cannot go on forever in this way, with every moneyed interest and industrial concern linked up with the politician. For that reason I say the politician is the keystone in the arch, which is absolutely wrong in this advanced age, with an intelligent people such as we have in Canada to-day.
There are several reasons for this reform, and the first is to prevent the autocratic control of credit, which means the autocratic control of industry, and the control of the rates of interest and the power of inflation and deflation, from which we have suffered so much since the war. We should also pie-vent the investment of the earnings of the workers abroad, to the detriment of the development of our own national resources, which has a good deal to do with the unemployment existing at present. Surely it is evident to everyone that these things are needed, because it seems quite possible that the factors which made the lot of thousands of farmers so hard since the war may come about again; it is not such a remote possibility. If I read the newspapers aright I

can see a tendency even to-day to bring about war between the two greatest nations of the world, who can pay the most for their ammunition should there be another great struggle. It is being hinted to-day that the United States and Great Britain may be at each other's throats within a few years, and I believe that those men who to-day control industry and credit are trying to create an attitude of mind which would make such a thing possible, for the sake of satisfying their greed.
For these reasons and also to bring the matter just as it is before the people of this country I propose to support the resolution.


Mr. A. M. CARMICHAEL (Kindersley):: 
Mr. ADSHEAD:: Under the Australian
system could there be any such catastrophe as occurred in connection with the Home bank?


Archibald M. Carmichael: I think such a
catastrophe would be practically impossible with a bank like the Australian Commonwealth bank, because the resources of the

National Bankinq-Mr. Carmichael
whole Australian Commonwealth, its lands, forests, mines, fisheries and everything else of value, are at the back of the commonwealth bank. One part of their statute provides that the Australian Commonwealth is responsible for the bank's business.


Mr. McQUARRIE:: Might I ask what class of business this bank engages in?


Archibald M. Carmichael: At the start of its
operations the business taken over was chiefly government business, along with what in this country we might term municipal business; later the bank branched out and now carries on a general banking business, but a feature is that its major business is with government departments.


William Garland McQuarrie: What I wanted to
ascertain was whether or not they did any discounting.


Archibald M. Carmichael: 

National Banking-Mr. Bothwell
lead us to believe that we would have no reason to fear if we in this country saw fit to adopt such a scheme and carry it out.


Mr. C. E. BOTHWELL (Swift Current):: Mr. Speaker, personally I have no objection to discussing in the banking and commerce committee the matter that has been before the house this afternoon, but I believe that the resolution as it is put to the house is not sufficiently clear to enable an intelligent discussion of it there. The hon. mover of the resolution (Mr. Woodsworth) stated that he did not believe that a national system of banking was immediately practicable, and made the further statement that he had no clear-cut scheme to propose, but he suggested that it might go before the banking and commerce committee, where some thought might be brought out that would enable us to develop some banking scheme.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I said a fully developed national banking scheme. '


Charles Edward Bothwell: I am glad of the explanation. However, I took it from the remarks made by the hon. gentleman that he did not have any clear-cut scheme, following the words he originally used.
I have listened to the remarks of the various speakers, and they all seem to have different ideas as to what a national system of banking is. So far as I am concerned I have always entertained the belief that we have at the present time in this country a national system of banking.


James Alexander Robb: Hear, hear.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Hear, hear.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Privately controlled.


Charles Edward Bothwell: That is not stated in
the resolution. What the resolution may be intended to mean further I do not know, but taking its wording and the remarks of the proposer, I gather that what is meant by the resolution is that in the opinion of this house the time has come to consider the establishment of some new national system of banking. That is the only meaning I can gather from the remarks the hon. member has made.
Then referring to the speech of the hon. member for Rosetown (Mr. Evans), I take it that he has in mind some system of banking that would shut out private banks of every description. The hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Carmichael), on the other hand, seems to favour the Australian system where they have a Commonwealth bank that enters into competition with the privately-owned banks of that Commonwealth.


Mr. HEAPS:: Would the hon. member tell me whether he has in mind any system which he thinks should be instituted?


Charles Edward Bothwell: I have not. I must
say that I have not considered what new system of banking should be instituted. I do not believe that the members who have spoken have fully considered what kind of system they would like definitely to propose. At least I have not been able to gather that from their remarks this afternoon. There is no doubt that fault can be found with our banking system in some respects, but before this house should go on record as saying that the time had come for the establishment of a national system of banking, without knowing something of what is meant by those terms, I think it should have some definite system or proposal before it. If it were possible to refer the whole banking system to the banking and commerce committee and there discuss it, we might gain something from that discussion, but to carry a resolution which means, if I place the right construction on it, doing away with our present system without providing anything to take its place, is I submit, Mr. Speaker, to take a step that in the light of experience we would not be justified in taking.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Would my hon. friend be in favour of having the question discussed before the banking and commerce committee?
Mr. BOTHW'ELL:	I have no objection
to having it discussed, but not the resolution in the form in which it stands. With the change I suggested I would have no objection to a discussion of the resolution in committee. I would not like to go on record as saying that the time had come for the establishment of a new, national system of banking, but probably the time has come to. consider and discuss some new system. If it is suggested that the resolution as it now is drawn should go to the banking and commerce committee, then I am opposed to it. It has been stated by the hon. member for Rosetown (Mr. Evans) that in his opinion every public utility should be owned by the public, and I take it that his idea is that all such things as railways, telegraphs, telephone lines, banking institutions and other corporations should be owned, controlled and operated by the government. That may be an ideal system, but we will have to go a long way in this country yet before we will be able, from the standpoint of the public, to take control of all these things that may be considered public utilities. It is rather difficult to define the term "public utilities." It is

National Banking-Mr. Robb
very broad, and may include practically everything that we do from the standpoint of production as well as from the standpoint of what we ordinarily term public utilities in a municipality.
I was rather surprised at the hon. member's suggestion that at the present time the United States and Great Britain are being agitated by the moneyed interests toward war. I do not believe for a moment, Mr. Speaker, that that is the situation. I do not believe that the moneyed interests, so-called, have anything to do with the newspaper reports that have been published recently respecting the relations between the two countries, and I do not believe that the moneyed interests are in any way fomenting trouble in that quarter.
The hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Carmichael) in rising to speak saw fit to direct the attention of the house to the fact that a number of members were not in their seats. It has been suggested that Hansard is being used for political purposes, and from the remark he then made I can only conclude that he used it for that particular purpose, because just at the very time, if he had taken the trouble to count the members of the two old parties in their seats, he would have found that his little group who were in attendance did not compare with the number of those present representing the government and the official opposition. But I would also like to draw his attention to this fact, that at that very time many of his own little group were not in their seats, and of those present representing the United Farmers of Alberta, the Progressives and Labour, their combined strength amounted to only a dozen.


Abraham Albert Heaps: It is hardly fair to reflect
on the Labour group; we were here one hundred per cent.


Charles Edward Bothwell: There was no distinction made by the hon. member for Kindersley at the time, and I took the trouble to count what he apparently considered the "little group" in that comer of the house.


Archibald M. Carmichael: Did he also count the number of members present from the two old parties?


Charles Edward Bothwell: I counted on this side of the house twenty-four.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Out of a hundred and
sixteen.


Charles Edward Bothwell: I would suggest that in
the opening remarks of the mover of the resolution may be found an explanation why all hon. members were not in their seats, for he
said that the time is not immediately practicable for the establishment of a national banking system, or some such words.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The hon. gentleman again will do me the credit to quote me correctly. I said:	The time is not
immediately practicable for the establishment of a fully developed system of national banking.


Charles Edward Bothwell: I quoted the words I
took down at the time. But I want to be fair to the hon. gentleman; he may have added other words. Certainly he did state later that we had not a fully developed system. With practically every member in the house considering that we have now a national banking system, and the resolution calling for the establishment of a national system of banking, I can quite realize that members generally would not take the resolution as seriously as they would if the hon. gentleman had placed some definite proposition before the house.


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say that personally I have no objection to the resolution going before the banking and commerce committee. But I do take exactly the same exception to its wording as does my hon. friend from Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell), and I hope that if it is referred to the banking and commerce committee for further inquiry and study my hon. friend who hasl presented it will confer with the hon. member for Swift Current and so modify his resolution that the house will not be understood to declare that Canada has not a national system of banking. Because, Mr. Speaker, I submit that when you compare the banking system and the bank failures of Canada in recent years with the bank system and bank failures of any other country in the same period, there can be no doubt that Canada has much reason to be proud of her system.
May I say at once that I have no pretensions to expert knowledge of banking. My experience with bankers has largely been that of a borrower, and the greatest kindness they have ever done me was when sometimes they refused to loan me money, for money borrowed must be paid back. And I submit to my hon. friend that when they ask the Dominion to go directly into the banking business-and I believe they are men of good judgment-it would seem that they have not carefully reviewed the record of the experience of the government in loaning money out in that particular part of the country which they represent.
National Banking-Mr. Robb

Now, there is one feature, sir, that I desire to put on record. In the first place, my hon. friend in moving his resolution took some exception to the business that Canadian banks have been doing outside Canada, and he emphasized the point by asking:	Why
should we send Canadian money into other countries when it is needed at home for home development? Well, had my hon. friend carefully reviewed the published statements that are sent to the Department of Finance every month, he would have learned that our Canadian banks in doing business in other countries in competition with the banks of other nations are bringing more money into this country than they are sending out. Let me give the house the statement to December 31 last. My hon. friend can check up the records for each month and get the average. According to the published figures the aggregate commercial loans of Canadian banks elsewhere than in Canada were $264,708,072, and the aggregate deposits $374,425,788; or $110,000,000 more was received in deposits than paid out in loans in those countries. That money was available whenever Canada needed it. My hon. friend will observe that I am speaking of commercial loans. It is true that our banks had other deposits and other liquid loans outside of Canada. But the reason Canadian banks make these liquid loans outside the Dominion, largely in New York and in London, is that there is no liquid investment for the money at home, and rather than have it lie idle it is sent to New York and to London, where, although it is earning small interest, it is available whenever Canada needs it for the requirements of her own commerce.
Before I take up more particularly what our own Canadian banks are doing, may I reply to the remarks of the chief whip of the United Farmers of Alberta group to the effect that while our system may be satisfactory for the east it is not satisfactory so far as the west is concerned. He thinks that wie should adopt another system and that the Dominion of Canada should go into the banking business, loaning money and making it available for all who want it in all parts of Canada and particularly of the west. If I do not do the hon. gentleman justice I want him to correct me.


Henry Elvins Spencer: That is entirely incorrect so far as my statements went. I advocated that the institution be used as a government bank only.


James Alexander Robb: Well, we have had experience in loaning money. We know what it costs to IMr. Robb.]
loan money when governments go into the loaning business, for we have now on the books of the department over $2,000,000, loaned largely in 1915, and some of it loaned away back in 1880. This money was loaned on good seourity and to-day we cannot find the gentlemen who borrowed it, so that the department is considering the probability of the money ever being recovered. It is a question whether it will not be altogether lost.


John Evans: Is the minister taking into account the tremendous inflation and deflation which occurred during those years and which operated detrimentally to the whole farming industry of western Canada?


James Alexander Robb: At the time that money was loaned in the west the security was considered ample. But that is not the only experience of loaning money that we have had in this country. We have loaned not only in western Canada but in all the provinces over $100,000,000 under the soldier settlement scheme. And what is the position when the banking business is brought into politics? Hon. gentlemen have come to parliament year after year and have asked the government to revalue the lands on which the money has been loaned, informing parliament that the soldiers were not able to meet their payments. Perhaps they were right; I am not saying that they were not. But the general result is that under the re-valuation legislation the country stands to lose about $16,000,000. That is our experience when Canada goes into the loaning business.
My hon. friend from Kindersley (Mr. Carmichael) made reference to the Australian system; he spoke of the Commonwealth Bank of the government of Australia and told what it was doing for that country. And my bon. friend who moved the resolution (Mr. Woods-worth) as well as the hon. member for Rose-town (Mr. Evans) complained that a small group of men, about sixty I think, comprising an interlocked directorate, were handling the big business of the country. Now what was the condition in connection with the Commonwealth Bank of Australia? That bank, until after the death of Sir Dennison Millar, was managed solely by Sir Dennison Millar, the man in control. He was a real czar, for even the treasurer of the commonwealth government had nothing to say. Sir Dennison Millar alone was president, general manager and board of directors. I have nothing to say against the Commonwealth Bank of Australia; it is a good bank.


Milton Neil Campbell: Was he not responsible to the government?

National Banking-Mr. Robb


James Alexander Robb: Perhaps he was. He was an
excellent banker, a trained Scottish banker, brought up in one of the Scottish banks, and invited to assume absolute control of the Commonwealth Bank under the law. But what has been the record of the Commonwealth Bank of Australia as regards the loaning of money to farmers and business men in that confederation? The records show that most of the assets of the Commonwealth Bank consist of dominion and colonial loans. Investments in British colonial and commonwealth government securities comprise the great bulk of the business, while bills discounted, loans and advances to customers, and other sums due the bank constitute about per cent of its assets. As I say, investments in British colonial government securities, commonwealth government securities, fixed deposits, bills receivable in London, and so on, are the large proportion of the business of that bank. While therefore the Commonwealth Bank of Australia may be useful to the federal government in floating loans, it certainly is of very small special value to the commercial community of Australia and to the farmers. Hon. gentlemen say, "It is a splendid thing for the government of Australia to have gone into this business'. Well, I invite them to compare the financial position of Canada, when Canada goes into the markets of the world to borrow money, with the position of the government of Australia. I am not saying a word against Australia; I do not suggest to what extent she has been successful in making loans. But I do say that Canada has no lessons to learn from Australia in the matter of banking or so far as the credit of the country is concerned.
The important point to bear in mind is this: A bank has always to maintain national1 confidence, so that the savings of the people may be deposited with it and be used for commercial purposes, the money being distributed where it can earn money instead of, as under the old system, being tucked away in a stocking and remaining there, useless both to the person owning it and to the community. I say, therefore, that it is imperative in Canada that we should do everything possible to maintain confidence in our banking system.
Hon. gentlemen opposite tell us that the banks in Canada are being gradually absorbed into the larger institutions and that whereas years ago we had a considerable number of banks-I forget how many-we are reduced at the present time to eleven or twelve. That is true. But what is the reason? Why is it that the request comes to the government from time to time for the merging of banks? Why is it that that splendid little bank, with headquarters in western Canada-


An hon. MEMBER:: The bank of Weyburn.


James Alexander Robb: No, I am referring to an eastern bank that moved west. A few years ago, as Minister of Finance, I had to go there and urge upon one of the strong banking institutions of the country to take over that concern -I am referring to the Union Bank-simply because I feared that we should have in Canada, if this were not done, a condition worse than existed in the case of the Home Bank. Well, what led to that state of things? One reason was that the bank had probably advanced more money than it should have done to two particular ventures in western Canada. But there was another reason, just as there is another reason why banks to-day, in order to carry on, find it necessary to get their forces together. And what is that reason? It is this, that big customers themselves throughout the country desire to do business with a large bank.
Some hon. gentlemen opposite come from a part of the country where one of the largest mergers in Canada has taken place-the western wheat pool. I am in favour of this, but I would point out to these gentlemen that such a concern cannot do business with small banks; it requires an institution that is able to take care of its commitments. And the same thing that is going on in connection with the wheat pool is taking place in eastern Canada. I will be frank with the house and say that representations are made to us from time to time that, because of mergers and the desire of these mergers to avail themselves of banks that will properly take care of their business, the smaller banks are having hard sledding. These small banks say, " Some of our customers who used to do business with us are now looking for larger and stronger banks." These are questions that might be considered by the banking and commerce committee, but I submit to my hon. friends opposite-and I hope they will agree with me-that it is not a good thing to have it go out to the world that Canada has not now a national banking system. As a matter of fact, under the Finance Act, we have. This is not the first time the question has been proposed for submission to the banking committee. Hon. gentlemen will recall that it was submitted in 1923 and again in 1924. Experts were brought here from Washington and the matter was gone into. In the course of the debate leading up to the referring of a resolution to the 'banking committee the question was asked, Why should not Canada have a system similar to the federal reserve bank of the United States? A gentleman was brought here and appeared as
National Banking-Mr. Robb

a witness before the banking committee and he declared-his evidence may be referred to if hon. gentlemen wish-to consult it-that under the Finance Act we are in Canada providing economically all the facilities that are required for carrying on the business of the country, and that we are doing work equally as good as that performed by the federal reserve system in the United States. I mention this in support of the statement made by my hon. friend from Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell) that Canada has now a national banking system. And when hon. gentlemen say that the banks are given the right to put out all the money issued, the records show that of the Dominion notes issued-apart from coins issued by the Dominion-on the 31st day of December, 1927 there were $220,835,000 of Dominion notes outstanding, while bank circulation at the same date amounted to $182,747,000. So there was then outstanding a greater amount of Dominion notes than bank notes.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Did not the greater part of that $220,000,000 comprise notes of large denominations used by the banks alone?


James Alexander Robb: It meets the requirements 6f the country and the government receives a revenue for it. As regards advances under the Finance and Bank Acts, since 1914-15 we have received a total of $16,831,894 from the banks for circulation charges and $14,402,129 as special tax, a total of $31,334,023. It is true that, under the Finance Act the government has no authority to loan directly to the customer, and in the light of the experience which the government has had in connection with loans made for seed grain in the west, and under the Soldier Settlement Board throughout Canada, it is a good thing that we have not that authority. We have, however, authority to make loans to the banks on certain securities stipulated, and any bank requiring funds has no difficulty in getting all the money needed to carry on the general affairs of the country. The proof that the banks have no difficulty in getting money lies in the fact that conditions throughout the country are good. No one is complaining that there is any insufficiency of funds. We did hear, however, from the hon. member who presented the resolution a complaint to the effect that Canadian banks were doing business in other countries, sending Canadian money out of the country, while in the very next breath some other hon. gentleman complained that money was coming into Canada. This shows the difficulty of trying to satisfy everyone. You will see large headlines in the press asking the question, "Why allow

foreign capital to come into this country?" and at the same time somebody gets up in this house and declares that we should not allow our capital to go out. Now there is a happy medium, and while I repeat I have no objection to the resolution being studied by the banking and commerce committee, I must say I have a decided objection to advertising to the world at large that Canada has not a national banking system.


John Evans: Does the minister not take
into account the fact that the great debt which the farmers of the west owe the government for seed and feed during the season of 1915 particularly is due not to any banking system but to the -fact that the price of wheat in 1917 was set at 50 per cent of its value? May I remind him that when the group which I charge with having the power of inflation and deflation decided upon deflation, wheat was the first thing that dropped, with the result that we had 2,000 farmers fewer between 1925 and 1926.


James Alexander Robb: I am Scotch, and I will answer the hon. gentleman's question by asking another. Would the banks have been in any better position had they loaned the money?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Am I to understand that there is an amendment?


James Shaver Woodsworth: In harmony with
the criticism made by the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell), and if it is .acceptable to him, I would move:
That in the opinion of this house the time has come for the consideration of the establishment of a publicly controlled national system of banking.


Hewitt Bostock: Without reading the
amendment, I would point out to the hon. member that he cannot amend his own motion.


Mr. IRVINE:: As I desire to discuss this
matter, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that you call it six o'clock.
Mr- SPEAKER:	In the meantime I must
declare the amendment out of order.


James Shaver Woodsworth: It is not my amendment, Mr. Speaker; the suggestion it conveys was made by the Minister of Finance.
At six o'clock the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


William Irvine: In rising to speak very briefly to the motion before the house I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. FEBRUARY 13, 1928
National Banking-Mr. Irvine
Woodsworth) upon his very admirable presentation of the theme, one which it is not easy to present to parliament in the short time in which he had to dispose of it. I wish also to say that I agree with the hon. member for Swift Current (Mr. Bothwell) in the exception he took to the wording of the resolution. Next I want to congratulate the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) for the very reasonable attitude which he adopted towards the proposal. I think he indicated that with certain modifications he would not oppose this resolution going to the committee. I think, Sir, that that is a very reasonable attitude. No one will deny that the subject in itself is one which covers a very wide field indeed, one which by its very nature is extremely technical, and that it would be very difficult for the house to discuss a subject of this kind and arrive at any conclusion that would be of service in the future. So that the committee is the only hope in a subject of this kind. This does not, of course, presuppose that the committee will find very much the matter, but it will afford us an opportunity of discussing the subject and investigating it thoroughly.
Now I desire before moving the amendment -which I hope will meet with the approval of the minister, for I have tried to draft it to meet the objections which he offered-to refer very briefly to some of the suggestions that the Minister of Finance made; because I do think that some of his remarks go perhaps a little beyond what he intended. Indeed, I doubt whether he would be willing to admit some of the implications of his remarks. The minister objected to the idea going forth that Canada did not have a national banking system. Now it may be that our banking system is a national system that may be what is the matter with our banking system, but I have never at any time thought that the mere nationalization of anything would cure it. I am not sure that the nationalization of our banking system, even if it were a fact or if we contemplated it, would be sufficient to meet the requirements of Canada to-day, having regard to her condition generally from an economic and an industrial point of view. I do not think that the question is so much who is carrying on the banking; the question is rather what is being done. I do not make a plea now for the nationalization of the system. I make a plea for service from the system, I want to see that system functioning in its proper relationship to the economic demands of the nation. I do not care whether that is done by a private bank or by a national bank. I do not even care if our bankers make some profit out of the transaction. The great trouble does not lie in the profits they make;
it lies in their control of a necessity of our economic life, and a control which is not always an intelligent one. During our investigations of recent years the bankers who appear before the standing committee frankly admitted to us that they did not understand the economic significance of finance. They understand, of course, the technique of banking; they are masters of finance in that respect, but they have, by their own confession, admitted that they do not understand the economic significance of finance. So that the greatest difficulty comes when they retard credit at times when credit ought to be released, and they release credit at the very moment when it ought to be retarded because they have not studied the economic side of the question. There, in my opinion, is where the big difficulty lies: not in the management of our banks, be it private or public, but rather in the fact that they are not being allowed to function in their proper relationship to the industrial demands of the country. On the other hand I do not think the minister really means to say that we have a national system at the present time. We certainly have not a national system in the ordinary sense of the term "national". Our system is national in a territorial sense, because our banks have branches scattered all over the Dominion, and our system may be regarded as a national system in so far as our banks have control over the economic life of the state; there is no doubt about that. We also have a national system in so far as the banks enjoy a privilege conferred upon them by parliament, and we may have a national system from some other points of view. But to say that we have a national banking system in the same sense that we have a national railway system-I do not think for one moment the minister really means that.
There is one other point which the minister mentioned upon which I wish to touch. He compared the credit of Canada with that of Australia when the two countries attempted to sell their bonds abroad. I am not in a position to know what are the respective positions of the two countries in that regard. I could however very easily see Why the credit of Australia might be impaired by financiers abroad if it be true that Australia has taken a step towards breaking the monopoly of finance in that country. That in itself might be a very good reason. However, I have not the figures, and therefore I must accept what the minister says in that regard without comment-
The point I want to emphasize more particularly is in regard to What the minister said with respect to the soldiers' civil reestablishment scheme. He characterized that
m
National Banking-Mr. Irvine

as a loan on the part of the Dominion of Canada along banking lines. Of course the minister knows very well that that is not the character of that transaction.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend speaks of
soldiers' civil re-establishment. W'hat I was speaking of was the soldier settlement board.


William Irvine: I accept the correction of
the hon. minister. The loan even in that regard was not a banking loan of the type we usually consider banking business. That loan, if the minister wishes to call it so-I do not accept for a moment that it is so, but for the sake of argument assuming that it is a loan, I want to point out to the minister just why it met with sutfh disastrous results as he has indicated, and I do not think the minister will attempt to say that my analysis is wrong because the facts are too patent to admit of contradiction. Is it or is it not a fact that the money in that loan to the soldier settlement board was expended largely upon lands which were purchased at the time when we were at the peak of inflation, and that the settlers were expected to repay that loan when the prices they received for the commodities which they produced had dropped to the very bottom in a period of deflation? To expect them to repay the loan undeT such conditions was on the very face of it ridiculous. But I want to inquire 'how it happened that we had inflation, and how it happened that we had deflation.
What were the peculiar circumstances which made the one hundred cent dollar of Canada in one year worth only forty-five cents the next year? To make a long story short, that occurred because we did not have intelligent financial control in Canada. That is why it happened. And who had the control, sir? The bankers' association had control, and those were the fruits of their work. The minister indicates that we have in the treasury board an institution which functions in exactly the same capacity as a federal reserve system would function. If that is so does the minister accept responsibility for the difference between inflation and deflation which occurred in the transaction to which he referred as a failure in national banking? If I recall aright, both the present Minister of Finance and the preceding Minister of Finance refused to accept any responsibility in that regard. I think I am also right in saying that the bankers who were examined before the parliamentary committee in the investigation which took place on the credit question also refused to accept any responsibility for that situation. Since neither the treasury board nor the

bankers' association will accept responsibility for what takes place through the instrument which they are both supposed to be handling, I can only come to the conclusion that there is nobody handling it, that it is handling itself, that it is simply running wild, that there is no control.
Some hon. member said that we were wanting easier money, more credit let loose. At the moment I am not so sure but that we want less credit let loose. There is just as much harm in too much credit as in too little credit. Let there be no mistake about what we want in this regard. We want control. We do not want this thing to run wild either in one direction or in the other.


Mr. DUNNING:: Can the hon. member
tell us how those countries got along with respect to inflation and deflation which had the type of state banking which he is discussing?


William Irvine: I am not advocating a
national banking system. I thought I made that clear at the outset of my remarks, when I said as clearly as I could that perhaps what was the matter with the system we have in Canada now was that it is a national system; for the minister has said that it is. I do not for one moment think that if you nationalize the system we have now it would be any more efficient. What is wrong is that nothing is being done so far as control is concerned. Who is controlling this matter, and what is being done? Nothing whatever so far as control is concerned; and my authority for making that statement is the refusal of the Minister of Finance during the period of depression to accept responsibility for that depression, and the refusal of the representatives of the bankers' association before the parliamentary committee to accept any responsibility at all for that situation. I repeat that if both the treasury board and the bankers' association refuse to accept responsibility either for inflation or deflation, then I must conclude, as every other person must who thinks about the matter, that there is not any agency controlling the financial system of Canada, and I say it is control that we want. We are not asking that any institution shall let loose too much credit, or too little credit. We believe this is a mathematical problem, that the data necessary to arrive at a correct conclusion is not beyond the possibility of human intelligence to get, and that if it is within the grasp of human intelligence, that then the dread conditions which have followed both inflation and deflation ought to be stopped, and this parliament ought to accept the responsibility for stopping it.

National Banking-Mr. Cahill
This subject, as I have said, covers a very wide field. A very wide field has already been covered by previous speakers, and to make any specific pronouncement would require a very great deal of technique which I do not intend to ask the house1 to listen to at this time. I will have something further to say on this question when it arrives at the proper place for that kind of consideration, and that is in the committee. I shall not weary the house with any further remarks, but in the hope that the amendment I am about to propose will meet the objection raised by the Minister of Finance when he spoke to the resolution, I move:
That the resolution he amended by striking out all the words after the word "come" in the second line, and inserting therefor the following:
"For the consideration of the improvement of our banking system, and that the banking and commerce committee be instructed to study possible improvements and report thereon."


Frank S. Cahill: I crave your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, and the indulgence of the house for a moment while I extend to my hon. friend from West Calgary (Mr. Bennett) my congratulations on his elevation to the honourable position of leader of the Conservative party. I trust he may live long to enjoy that distinction, and that he may long remain a leader of his majesty's loyal opposition.
I am glad that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) has agreed to send to committee the resolution moved by the bon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth). That the present banking system of Canada is inadequate to the needs of Canada is becoming apparent to a great many people throughout the country. I think the leader of the opposition will also agree with the resolution, at least to some extent. The other day he dwelt on the fact that we were losing many people from Canada. He lamented the emigration which has been taking place for some years, and I think if he will study this question of Canadian banking he will find the cause, in a great measure, of the emigration. The present system of banking, centralized as it is, will not permit of the development of Canadian resources by the Canadian people. Those who have given any study to governments or the organization of society have always attempted to get as far away as possible from centralized authority and centralized control; yet we permit that system in Canada in our banking.
We are told that ours is a wonderful banking svstem, that it is the best in the world. I think possibly, Mr. Speaker, that is because we know no other banking system, because
we were brought up with it. We are preached to from time to time and told that ours is a wonderful system, and as we have had no experience with any other we are naturally inclined to believe ours must be a good one. But any system of banking that will centralize the finances of the country in one or two cities cannot ,possibly be a good one for a country as extensive as ours is in point of area. It is just as necessary to have a financial structure in the country as it is to have engineers. My hon. friend who has moved the resolution and myself might build a railway from here to Winnipeg without an engineer. It would be a mighty poor railway,
I admit, but it would be possible to do it. Now, we are attempting to do the same thing in our finances-that is, to build a financial structure in Canada without trained financiers. You will say we have trained financiers and excellent bankers. I agree that we have some, but they are altogether too limited in number. Outside of the two great cities of Toronto and Montreal, you have in Canada practically no trained bankers. You have scarcely a man in a bank in Canada who is competent to give financial advice to his clients, or to the young people growing up in the country, who need the assistance, the aid and the advice of trained bankers. Under our system the banks employ boys, some from the high schools, others from the country store, and some who have not had even that training. In a few years they are themselves managers of branches of the bank, where their only function is to collect money from depositors in the district in which they are located and forward it either to Montreal or to Toronto.
I do not agree with much that was said by my hon. friend opposite about the banks not wanting to lend money. Every bank in the world is just as anxious to lend money as any man who is entitled to credit is to get that credit. Money is absolutely useless to a bank unless the bank can lend it. The bank cannot afford to pay three per cent on deposits and not lend that money; they must do it in order to make a profit; so that I have no quarrel with the banks so far as lending money is concerned. The quarrel I have with the present system is that the money is accumulated only in two large centres, and there are no facilities for lending money except in those two centres. As a result of that condition the banks, not having, as I say, the facilities to make loans other than in these cities, were forced to make improvident loans and suffer great losses, which brought down the number of banks from about thirty to something like ten or twelve. If you study the system you
National Banking-Mr. Cahill

will readily understand that a bank with four or five hundred branches could not possibly delegate to four or five hundred people the power of the central bank or the power of making loans. Necessarily they must consult with the head office. There must be some head to the institution, and the head is located only in two centres for all [DOT] of our banks. It is not so much the bankers that are at fault; it is the banking system and the system of establishing branches which will not permit of the development of the natural resources throughout the country.
The Minister of Finance pointed out that we do not have the failures that they have in other countries-I presume he had in mind the failures in the United States. Our banking system has very often been compared to that of the United States, where they have a system of small and large banks throughout the country. True, they have had many trifling failures, but these would not compare with the failures of our banks in any instance that I know of. They have had numerous failures throughout the agricultural districts of the United States in the past few years, but they were only small failures and dealt only with the money of the people in the community in which the bank was situated.
e are also told that this is an elastic system which admits of making large loans to the large mergers. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is something more required in Canada than banking facilities to take care of the large mergers. We want something that will take care of the young Canadian who is growing to manhood and attempting to develop industry in Canada, but who never has an opportunity of talking to a real banker during his younger days, and until he has reached the stage where he can go to Toronto or Montreal and consult with the real bankers of the Dominion there, nnd only there, he can never hope to establish a credit for himself. We all know that credit is the one essential to success in business, that no man can possibly succeed to any extent in business until by good management and integrity of conduct he has developed the confidence of his associates in his ability and straightforwardness. I repeat, he never reaches that stage because he has no banker to consult with. If he wants to finance an enterprise in Canada he must do one of two things, go either to Toronto or to Montreal where the head offices of our chartered banks are located'; otherwise he has no chance of talking to the financial people in this country.
The banking system of the United States- a system that is condemned in some quarters- has succeeded, Mr. Speaker, in developing 
every resource in every local community an the union. You cannot go from the Canadian boundary to Mexico or from Maine to California and find any resource capable of being profitably developed without being able immediately to get the necessary money right at hand. In Canada it is impossible to do this, and I fear that as a result our banking system has got us to the position where we are very little better off to-day than the people of Mexico. Twenty-five or thirty years ago they were quite willing to transact business with the Americans. They were willing to sell them their natural resources. It was all done legitimately and above board. But the Mexicans found later that they had sacrificed their resources and lost their control to outside people. Well, Mr. Speaker, we are coming to the same position. I read with interest a pamphlet issued periodically by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. It contains a lot of valuable information and is well worth perusal by every hon. member. One number points out that in 1913 Canada owned only 30 per cent of her national debt, that is, the bonds were in Canadian hands; but in 1923 or 1924 we owned practically 70 per cent-'representing, I presume, in the neighbourhood of seven or eight hundred million dollars. The writer also points out that in recent years three or four billion dollars of outside money has been invested in Canada.
Now, I want again to say a word to my hon. friend the Minister of Finance on this point. To my mind, it is not good business to sell to the Canadian people our low-priced government bonds, for it follows that the Canadian who is attempting to develop industry must go elsewhere and pay high prices for his money. It would be much better for the minister to float his bonds outside Canada, and thus leave our domestic funds for the development of our natural resources. We find that great sums of money are being spent here. I am glad to see it, it is a good thing to have the capital available, but it should be spent under Canadian management, if possible; and it would be possible had we had a system of banking that would have developed a number of financiers of this country. They would have been able to finance such enterprises through Canadian banks, and also through outside banks with the help of Canadian banks. How much better this would be for the Dominion than selling our natural resources to outsiders, who will take the dividend cheque out of the country and give us the labourers' cheque-the dinner pail. I regret to have to say so, but we are fast approaching the stage where we will have the opportunity of carrying the dinner

National Research-Mr. Garland (Bow River)
pail instead of cutting the dividend coupon, and I think our banks are more responsible for that undesirable condition that any other agency in Canada.


An hon. MEMBER:: Except the government.


Frank S. Cahill: Perhaps so; perhaps the government should have amended the Bank Act long ago in such a way that it would have been useful to the Canadian people. I cannot convince myself, Mr. Speaker, and I doubt if I could convince you or any person else in this house, that the Canadian people are not just as bright, just as energetic and just as able as any other people that we know of in the world. Why should we put ourselves in the position of having to take second place in our own country to others who come in here? I do not believe they are any smarter than Canadians, but they have a system of finance in which they are trained, just as our people are trained in any other profession. We lack that training, we cannot have it under our present banking system, and until we change that system there will be no practical advance in Canada. I agree with my hon. friend the leader of the opposition that we have made no real progress in the last twenty or thirty years. True, we have gained somewhat in population. But how? We have simply traded our Canadian-born for a foreign population. I do not blame the present government, I do not blame the past government, but I do say that the time has come to study the Whole question with a view to the good of Canada, let the suggestion come from where it may. If we do not, if we continue along present lines, there will soon be mighty few Canadians left in the country, for, as I have said, we have maintained our population so far by importing people whom we at least claim are not quite as good as our native-born.
This condition, Mr. Speaker, has gone on for years and years. It is only coming to a head now with the formation of gigantic mergers. It is only now we are beginning to realize that the Canadian has not developed his natural resources; it is only now we are beginning to realize that locally our natural resources have not been developed; it is only now we are coming to realize that our money is going to Toronto or Montreal, if not to New York; and if it is not too late to study the question, it is certainly not a moment too early. Therefore I hope, Sir, that the government will offer every facility for the study of this whole question, and will lend their assistance in devising ways and means of bringing about a better financial structure for Canada
through a better banking system, and so give to the Canadian his proper heritage instead of forcing him to leave his own country to seek a livelihood.


Hewitt Bostock: Is the house ready for the question?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Hewitt Bostock: I declare the main motion, as amended, carried.
Motion (Mr- Woodsworth) as aimended agreed to.
NATIONAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River) moved:
That in the opinion of this house, the time is now come when the further development ot our country requires the establishment ot a national research institute, and that this should be undertaken by the Dominion government.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, my chief excuse, if
excuse be needed, for addressing the house on this subject to-night is the apathy of the public on the need for a national research institute. The whole trend of my discourse I hope will be in the direction of sympathetic cooperation with what I understand the go\ -eminent has in mind. At the outset let me congratulate the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) on the statement- which I understand is correct-that there is to be included this year a large item in the estimates for the establishment of such an institute. I am not sure that I altogether agree that the amount proposed to be provided will be enough, but it is going to be a very healthy start in the right direction. It took the war to shatter the complacency not only of Canada but of England in regard to the matter of research. Prior to that time both countries had drifted along without worrying very much about what research meant, what it might do for the country, or anything else. Many of us had grasped theoretically the idea that Germany's great industrial progress was the result of the application of research to industry. It was not, however, I say, until the war itself that England and subsequently Canada realized the value of research in the development of their own resources and in the organization of their own industries.	^
We established a national research council and to that council belongs a great deal of credit for having maintained public interest during the years that have elapsed. It is true they have had a tremendous task. Public interest started waning in 1918 and it continued waning until a series of articles appearing in the press in 1927 again brought this question before the public. The amount that
412 .	COMMONS
National Research-Mr. Garland (Bow River)
is to be expended on this kind of an institute must from the very outset be adequate. At the present time research work is to a limited extent being carried on within our departments of government; our universities are trying to do something along that line, and a few of our larger manufacturing concerns maintain laboratories. But the government services are necessarily largely curtailed and localised;1 the work of the universities is almost entirely local, and the work of both the government and universities prior to this time has been diffused because of the necessity of carrying on partly educational work as well as research work at the same time. There is in Canada practically not one gentleman who is carrying on research work who is devoting his entire time to it. The other day I picked up an article that was printed in the Canadian Forum and I find that view supported by this statement,
Scientists in the direct employ of industry In this country are still occupied more largely with regulatory duties than with research. In fine, it is true that with pitifully few exceptions, there are no scientists in Canada whose whole business is research. Almost all are able to devote to research only what dregs of time and energy are left over from other important and often multifarious duties.


Mr. McGIBBON:: Does the hon. gentleman mean that in the broadest sense or in regard only to industrial research?


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: I am
dealing with research in its broadest sense.


Peter McGibbon: Then that statement is absolutely wrong.


Edward Joseph Garland: 
Peter McGibbon: It was not my intention, Mr. Speaker, to take part in this debate until a few moments ago, and I rise now principally for two reasons. First, I want to contradiot a statement made by the previous speaker (Mr. Garland) that there is not a single man in Canada engaged in pure science. Second, I want to congratulate the government, especially the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) and the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart), for the support they have given to this cause for a good many years. It is now nearly ten years since I first raised my voice in this parliament on behalf of scientific and industrial research, and as the years have gone by I have been more and and more impressed not only by the desirability but by the absolute necessity of Canada's indulging in some such form of assistance as is now proposed.
My criticism of the government on this particular occasion is two-fold. First, they are six or seven years too late; and secondly, the support which they are giving to scientific and industrial research is far too meagre. I



National Research-Mr. McGibbon
believe the Minister of Trade and Commerce is going to ask parliament to vote something like three-quarters of a million dollars for this purpose. If he had doubled, trebled, or quadrupled that amount, it would be more in keeping with the necessities of the case. The time has long since come when this country and every other country must use to the fullest possible extent all the advantages of science in order to keep pace with the other countries of the world. And in that connection, Mr. Speaker, I should not want it to go out to the world in the language of the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) that the great country of Canada has not been able to produce a scientist; that the universities of this country have not made it possible for a single man in Canada to devote his or her whole time to science. I think, Sir, he must be sadly ignorant of the history of his own country, sadly ignorant of the history of his own province I recall to his mind certain names which have recently been placed on the honour roll of accomplishment in scientific research-such men as Professor Collip, of Alberta university, one of the principal assistants to Doctor Banting in perfecting the insulin discovery; Professor McCallum, of McGill university; Doctor Banting himself, of Toronto university and Professor Macleod, all of whom are devoting all their time and energy to scientific research. I should like to remind my hon. friend that Professor McCallum has made discoveries which have been recognized the world over. He has been offered the presidency of five universities and he is now devoting all his time to fundamental science at McGill.
Indeed, I do not have to go further than the city of Ottawa. May I direct attention to the discoveries of Doctor Watson and the work he is doing? Need I recall the fact that this government is completing a $70,000 building across the river, and also the remarkable result which Doctor Watson recently achieved in reducing an expenditure of $47,000 in connection with dourine compensation, first to $300 and later to $70? Might I call attention to the work done in the Department of Agriculture in developing the different grades of grain, a work which has meant millions of dollars of value to this country? I do this only to show that Canadians have not been behind in this field; that we have within our own borders men of intelligence, industry and ability in scientific and industrial research.
I should like to ask my hon. friend too, Sir, if he heard anything about the work of Canadians during the war. Are the scientists IMr. McGibbon.]
of Canada behind those of other countries? I should like to remind him of the great task placed on the shoulders of one Canadian during the war, a task equal if not superior to that performed by any other man during that period:	I refer to the closing of the strait
of Dover against submarines, a task which was given to a Canadian. Gathering about him a staff of Canadians, he and his assistants worked some twelve or fifteen months; the strait of Dover was closed in August, 1917, and not a submarine went through after that. What had been applied there could also be applied in the North sea, we are told, except for one portion which was too deep, and that could be looked after by other means.
I could refer also to the work of a Canadian in connection with the submarine telephone, a thing of inestimable value. I could recall the work in Toronto of Doctor Banting, who within the last few years discovered the secret of the treatment of diabetes. That was something scientists all over the world had been looking for, and it fell to the lot of a Canadian to make the discovery, one of inestimable value to mankind not only in the relief of suffering but in the prolonging of human life; and every year a man's life is prolonged through the application of that remedy means a natural source of revenue to the country.
I might go on, if time would permit, and point out to my hon. friend, to the house and to the country what the different pathologists, the great seekers of the unknown in all the universities of Canada, have been doing in the past, and to show to him that much as we admire immigrants, who come to our shores, we are not prepared to admit that the native born subject is inferior to any man on eatth.
I should like to congratulate the government upon the steps which they are taking in this matter. For ten year3 I have preached this doctrine in the house. I believe that for every dollar they expend they will receive ten-fold in return. I could give the house illustrations which I have put on Hansard in the past of the great returns which have been made on the money invested in scientific and industrial research. I could tell you, for example, of a discovery made by a firm in the American republic to the south where, by improving the grade of yeast, that single firm has saved $500,000 a year. I could refer you to the great Pasteur, and not only in the realm of medicine and surgery; I could tell you about his scientific work in France in connection with the silk worm, splenic fern and with wines

National Research-Mr. Malcolm
and other discoveries. The eminent Huxley stated that his three discoveries created enough wealth for the French republic to pay off the debt, for the Franco-Prussian war.
I could take you to the great industries of Canada and show you their magnitude. We have a fishing industry bringing in about $40,000,000 a year, and we are told by scientists that the waste of oil from the by-products is twenty-five per cent of the total value of the fish. I could point to the waste products of the saw mills and pulp mills and show you the possibilities of creating wealth from material that is now thrown away. I sat on a committee which gathered evidence some years ago, and we were told by scientists that an ordinary load of sawdust would produce ten gallons of ethyl alcohol, while one bushel of grain would only produce about three. Here is an opportunity for utilization of an absolute waste of the industries of this country to-day, material which is largely thrown into our streams and swamps. I could tell you of vast industries that were created during the war. For instance, Mr. Speaker, you will remember that early in the struggle our scientists told us that if Great Britain would only shut off the imports of cotton into Germany the war would be over in six months. When public opinion was brought to the point, and the blockade was put in force, what was the result? Germany put her scientists to work and from cellulose they developed a product to take the place of cotton-and the war went on. I could tell you that when Germany's imports of potash salts were restricted -and, of course, as everyone knows, these form the basis of fertilizers and other important things-the scientists of that country by an electrical process extracted nitrogen from the air and rendered Germany independent of the imported salts. I could tell you about the great artificial silk industry of this country which has been developed, how under pressure and through chemical processes cellulose is converted into artificial silk. Thus I might go on with one industry after another of the Dominion and Show how their development has been due to the application of science, and point out the possibilities of the future in this direction. This, sir, is the duty before the government. The waste in our forests today is awful to contemplate. In the heart of the country I come from you will see hemlock bark, which in past years was used for the tanning of leather, now allowed to rot, the cost of transporting it to the markets being prohibitive. Some years ago I pointed out to the research council the possibility of extracting the tanning material from the bark 56103-27*
by commercial processes. So far it has not been successfully done- But you can take countries like Germany, the United States and Great Britain and note how the application of science! to industrial research has brought about remarkable developments in various industries.
Again, Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the government, because it is one of the few times that I can agree with its policy. Particularly do I congratulate my friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce that at last he has had the courage to imake a start on this path. I very heartily support him and the government in this policy. My only criticism tonight is that instead of asking for $750,000 they should bring down a requisition for at least $3,000,000. They will need the money in the next two or three years, and they know it. Then why not make a start, and make it with courage, and so give our industries the advantage of the latest scientific research? Let us put them on an equal footing with the industries of other countries. In a word, let us develop Canada for Canadians.


James Malcolm: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to delay the house at any length tonight, but there are one or two observations that I should like to make now that this resolution presents the opportunity. Naturally it is very gratifying for a member of the government to have the support which has been given me by my hon. friend from Bow River (Mr. Garland) and my hon. friend from Muskoka (Mr. McGibbon). Indeed, I doubt if any other subject has met, or will meet, with as general approval from the house as the subject of the development of scientific and industrial research.
For many years outstanding men in this house have ' advocated increased expenditure on industrial research. Mr. Hume Cronyn raised his voice in this chamber on many occasions in season and out of season in his efforts to impress upon us the necessity of greater expenditure in this regard, and I believe the time has come when the public conscience has been awakened to an extent that will justify a forward movement in this field of endeavour.
May I compliment my friends from Bow River and Muskoka for having covered a great deal of the subject, which relieves me of the necessity of reviewing it to-night. I wish consequently to point out just two things. First, I appreciate the sincere criticism of my friend from Muskoka that we are not asking for a large enough vote. Let

National Research-Mr. Malcolm
me tell him that the $750,000 is being asked at the request of the national scientific and industrial research council. After going ovqr the whole matter with that body it was estimated that it would take about three million dollars during a period of five or ten years to construct the laboratories necessary at the capital to carry on this work. It was further felt however that in this year's program it was not possible to spend a greater sum for the first unit of the buildings than appears in the estimates. The council also asked for an increase from $170,000 to $300,000 for administrative purposes for the current year. That increase appears in our estimates. Thus in doing what we propose we are acting on the advice of the only body in Canada which is in a position to advise us. It is true we might have asked the house to vote a larger sum of money, but it could not be advantageously expended this year. The house must remember this fact, that the building up of the executive of the research council is a comparatively easy matter; we have many able public men in the Dominion who will be glad to join the board of the research council and give it the benefit of their advice. The building up of a trained staff to operate the laboratories, however, is a matter which will require time and very careful selection. At the moment there is not an unlimited number of men available with the necessary scientific knowledge to go into the pure science of the many subjects which we will undoubtedly have to take up, and tthe development of the laboratories will therefore of necessity be progressive. I hope in this connection that from year to year we shall be coming to parliament asking for ever-increasing sums of money as the work develops. I wish, too, to point out that there is a very considerable amount of scientific work being done by the various departments of government, and that this work will have gradually to be amalgamated with the work of the main laboratories. That amalgamation will take time, and the scientific men in the various government departments will gradually find themselves, as opportunities occur, working under one head. That is what we shall try to accomplish.
Now, as to any possible overlapping between federal and provincial endeavours in this field, may I say this? It is the opinion and advice of the national research council that Canada has within the various provinces many research problems which are entirely local. The council feels that from its vote it may be able to assist in research work on such local problems by contributions to a
[Mr Malcolm.]
university situated within the province. In that way provincial governments themselves, if they choose to vote further sums of money, will have such local research work under their own observation, so to speak. Without going into a discussion of the coal problem, wa know that we have very great fields of coal. We know that our Alberta coal is high in moisture content, and we know that one of the difficulties in coking our Nova Scotia coal is that it is high in sulphur content. Each of these problems is distinctly different. One can be studied at Dalhousie university, the other at the university of Alberta in Edmonton. The research council is quite conversant with the fact that such problems will probably have to be allocated to the different universities throughout the country.
May I now say a word, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the remarks of my friend from Bow River (Mr. Garland)? The hon. member stated and, I think, incorrectly, as the hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario (Mr. Mc-Gibbon) mentioned, that there has not been a great deal of research work done in Canada, I would point out to my hon. friend that private industry in Canada in many cases has done some very valuable research work. The work that is being done at McGill university with the support of the pulp and paper industry has put the pulp and paper industry in Canada to the very forefront of that industry throughout the world. That has been done without direct government assistance, though it is true that the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) has made some contributions toward a building or the maintenance of a building and has cooperated in the work in every possible way.
Let me mention another instance. The Department of Mines of the Dominion of Canada has done some work that is rather interesting, and if I can find a letter which I have on my desk and which came unsolicited a few days ago, it will reveal to the house some of the very valuable work which has been done. A high grade magnesite ore exists in Austria, and prior to the war magnesite was imported from that country as a refractory for open hearth steel furnaces. During the war a magnesite industry was developed in Canada from a low grade ore, but after the war the lower grade ore was unable to compete with the Austrian magnesite which again came on the market. Those interested in the development of this work here appealed to the research council; a great deal of study was given to the subject, and as a result of that research we have now reached the point where these men say that the

National Research-Mr. Malcolm
Canadian market is being almost completely supplied with Canadian magnesite and a growing export market is being developed in Great Britain and the United States. Thus one of our natural resources is being developed and a large part of the result of that growth flows along export lines. That this has been made possible is due largely to assistance received from the national research council.
I do not want to weary the house by reciting all the work that has been done in connection with agricultural research but it has been considerable. Neither do I want to review all the work that has been done in mining research, but I can assure the house it also has been considerable. I might refer to the benefit we have received from research work done in the United States. Indeed, we have been very fortunate in being able to get the benefits of research carried on by other countries, though I do not know that we should be particularly proud of our being in such a position.
In this regard I desire to make a remark with which all members on this side of the house may not agree. The development of our natural resources is very important; taking a raw product and putting it into a more highly finished state is always essential to the wealth of a nation. Any man realizes that pig iron does not bring as high a price as watch springs. But there is another feature about research: when a need arises and there is a potential market in a nation for a certain product, that product will be manufactured within the nation even though the raw material has to come from the four corners of the globe. Let me illustrate this. Some men say that industry should be indigenous to a country. Very well. Can anyone tell me why it is that Canada imports raw rubber from another part of the empire on the opposite side of the world; imports long fibre cotton from Egypt, brings a heavy commodity half-way around the world to this continent, brings it indeed to the centre of the continent, fabricates it there and then ships rubber tires and rubber shoes to the value of many millions a year back to the country of origin of the raw material? How did that come about? Not only do we do that, but we produce these commodities here at a price comparable with that in any other country in the world. This is more than taking coals to Newcastle. It is bringing coals from Newcastle and shipping them back after they have been re-processed by intelligent labour and science. That is what it means. Research has built up the rubber industry
from the milk which was found in the rubber trees to the tires and all the other multitudinous products which are made of rubber. Rubber has revolutionized our methods of transportation. Rubber has contributed to the progress of the world probably as much as any other raw commodity to which science has been applied. But science, while it has built up the rubber industry in Canada to the extent of production per annum to the value of $100,000,000, has done so by working on a product which Canadian industry has brought from the four corners of the earth for the service of the Canadian people.
In appealing, therefore, for a vote for industrial and scientific research, I appeal not only on the ground of the development of our own raw material which we inevitably have to export to some extent in some form, but also on the ground that if we have to export some of our nickel ore, for instance, to a country that wants to make its own nickel products, we should also develop our own nickel for our own needs to the greatest possible extent in Canada. But on the same basis we need to apply science to those raw materials of other countries which we desire to import in order to develop within this country the production of articles which we require for consumption here. I know I do not need to appeal further on this matter.
I am most heartily in accord with the resolution of the hon. member for Bow River, as I feel every member of this house . is, and I only hope that the thought thrown out by that hon. member with regard to the support of industry will be heeded by those engaged in industry. The Dominion government owes it to the people to supply the scientific knowledge, the laboratories, the equipment. Industry itself directly benefits, but the consumer benefits also and so does the country as a whole. The past shows that industry itself in the United States has been particularly generous to science and I feel that Canadian industry will respond in the same way.
If the benefits of scientific research in other countries were obtainable in Canada free; if we could get all the scientific knowledge we wanted from Germany, Great Britain and the United States for nothing; if we did not need to spend a dollar to learn all we require to know with regard to science in industry, I should still be in favour of voting money for industrial research. The opportunities in this Dominion of Canada for work in pure science, for work on specific problems, are so great that if we vote the necessary money we shall create opportunities in scientific work for

National Research-Mr. Malcolm
probably 50 per cent of the graduates of our universities, and we shall be doing something which we can well afford to do by the expenditure of federal money, namely, provide occupation at home for our scientists.
I may say for the information of the house that it is the intention of the government to erect in Ottawa on a ten^cre plot secured without cost from the Department of Agriculture, the first unit of a national research laboratory, and a central power plant as well. This will bring the first unit of the laboratory close to the experimental farm, and will give the officials at the farm the benefit of the research work done there in connection with agricultural science.
May I say further that it is the intention of the government to have the national research council work on all problems with regard to all industries, and if the people in any particular industry think the work of the council is to be devoted exclusively to that industry, they are mistaken. There is further research work to be done in agriculture, as well as in connection with our fisheries and our mines, and as the work goes on and as the house becomes better informed as to what is being done by the research council, I think it will be very interesting to listen to the debates, because I believe many valuable suggestions will come from members of the house who apparently are so whole-heartedly in support of this work.


Mr. TOLMIE:: May I ask a question?
I should like to know if anything is being done by the research council in connection with the utilization of waste material left in the woods after the logs have been removed?


James Malcolm: I cannot answer my
hon. friend's question offhand. There is an order of the house for a return, which will be tabled perhaps to-morrow, dealing with the various subjects which the research council has under consideration. It covers several pages of paper, and when it is brought down perhaps my hon. friend might look at it and find the answer to his question.
M-r. McGIBBON: I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce if he would be good enough to have a conversation with his colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. King), to see if he cannot stir the dry bones of that institution so as to get something done along these same lines.


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):: My remarks, on this occasion, will be very brief, because I expect to take part in the discussion on the next motion on the

order paper, which is almost identical with that now before the house. May I say, however, in answer to the hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Tolmie), that the research work in wood products which has been conducted up to the present has been carried out by the Department of the Interior, and we have not yet commenced the study of the utilization of waste timber. We have been devoting our attention mainly to the study of wood preservatives, wood testing and kindred subjects. Through the generosity of the Canadian Pulp and Paper Association, a laboratory is being constructed at McGill university which will be partly occupied by our staff, Where further scientific work will be carried on. I say it will be partly occupied by our staff, because the research work in cellulose and kindred subjects relative to the pulp and paper industry will be carried on by the professors of McGill university.
I should just like to say, Mr. Speaker, that ever since coming to Ottawa, in season and out of season, I have been a consistent advocate of a greater expenditure and a greater endeavour in scientific and industrial research. I think I realized its value from the time Doctor Saunders did so much for the wheat growers of the west when he evolved the marquis wheat; no one can estimate what that meant to our western farmers, and as I have said, from that time on my interest in scientific and industrial research has been constant. We have not been altogether idle in Canada; many interesting problems are being studied at the present time, and I will mention just one in the province of Alberta. Our own provincial university there is studying the extraction of what we think will be helium gas from the products of our own gas fields. I am not going into a discussion of what that will be worth-


Mr. BENNETT:: Where is the market for it?


Charles A. Stewart: It is an interesting problem, to see whether or not we can extract it from our own gas.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Why not try something more practical?


Charles A. Stewart: I merely
mention that as one of the problems under consideration. The same thing can be said about mu' great tar sand deposits, which were mentioned by the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland).


Mr. MANION:: What about iron?


Charles A. Stewart: In connection with iron, we have gone this far in the

National Research-Mr. Stewart (Edmonton)
laboratories of the mines branch here; the slag now thrown off from the deposits at Sudbury could be economically put through a process, and the iron ore utilized. But with regard to the other problem, that of the low grade hematite ores, we have not gone very far in our research work. I may say, however, that we are keeping very closely in touch with what is being done in that connection in every other country, and we are not without hope that something may eventually be accomplished.


Robert James Manion: It is the most important problem to-day.


Charles A. Stewart: I agree that it is one of the most important questions, but I would not put it as the most important one. There is another point which I should like to discuss, leaving out the coal question, which will come up later when the motion which follows this one on the order paper is taken up. I wish to issue an invitation to all members of this house to attend a lecture which I hope to have held here, to be given by one of our own officers in the surveys branch, which will show how we have advanced in the making of aerial surveys in Canada. We have the proud distinction at the present time of leading the world in aerial surveys, and it is my intention, for the benefit of those members of this house who may be interested, to have the officer in charge of this work give a demonstration in the railway committee room of how the work is performed, how the maps are made, and the benefits of that method of surveying as opposed to the slower and more tedious method of ground work upon which we have had to depend in the past. I know one of the hon. members opposite made a very serious charge against our map making, but we are quite prepared to demonstrate what we have been able to do in aerial photography, and I can safely say that we are not lagging behind in that field at any rate. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) mentioned what has been done in connection with magnesite, and there are many other matters in Which the scientists of our country have made names for themselves in industrial and scientific research.
My hope is that with the establishment [DOT]of these laboratories and with the greater encouragement we will be able to hold out, we can get a larger body of young men to go in for scientific work. I think it important that it should be said now that it is the hope of the national council that the universities of Canada shall be first utilized to their fullest extent, because from the universities we shall have to recruit the men to undertake the research work. They will have
to be trained and educated there, and to my mind the logical thing to do is to give all these universities, no matter where they are situated, an opportunity to carry out scientific work to the fullest possible degree. Then at Ottawa there should be established a central organization to do such work as the industries of Canada may be desirous of having done, either by a direct grant from the federal government or with the assistance of Canadian industry, much on the principle followed in the bureau of standards and the Mellon institute in the United States. I think it important that we should get out to the public the idea that we are going to utilize all the facilities at present available and then create additional facilities which may not now be in existence for these purposes. Having put it on that basis I think it will appeal to the good sense of every business man in Canada, and so far as the overlapping of work is concerned, I think that can be very well avoided. We have many problems in connection with our natural resources that are awaiting, and have awaited for some considerable time, investigations that will occupy all the time needed, and take all the money and all the men that we can provide for this purpose. Other problems and other fields that are not so important to us may be undertaken by other parts of the empire.


Edward Joseph Garland: With respect to experimental work that will be carried on in behalf of industry, may we presume that, just as in the case of the Mellon institute, industry will have to meet the cost of the experiment?


Charles A. Stewart: That is a
little difficult to answer. If the investigation is directly attributable to the industry the answer would be yes; but if it relates to a matter of general importance then it will have to be undertaken by the government itself.


Edward Joseph Garland: My question had reference only to the request from a certain industry that the work in the laboratory be turned into the direction of solving a particular problem in which that industry was interested. In such a case I take it the industry would have to pay the cost of the experiment?


Charles A. Stewart: Quite. That is the method pursued in most countries in which I have had the opportunity of making a study of this matter. It is identical with the course pursued in the United States, and I see no reason why there should be any change in that respect in Canada.
National Research-Mr. Cahan


Peter McGibbon: In the case of duties
delegated to provincial universities, will a direct voice be still maintained in Ottawa?


Charles A. Stewart: The national council will supervise the work in order to effect co-ordination and prevent overlapping. Take the province of Manitoba, for instance, where investigation is going on now in connection with wheat rust. I merely cite the work there as an example of what can be done in that direction. It is very important to the province of Manitoba, and quite logical, that the work should be given to the province to undertake in order that it may solve the problem if that be at all possible. Not, may I say, that that fact detracts for a single moment from the general interests that we have in the subject.
That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker, in the matter, except to add this: I welcome the speeches of all the hon- members who have expressed their views on this question- I listened with very great interest to an address by Professor McLennan in the Chateau Laurier, but unfortunately he was speaking almost entirely to technical men and I said to him then: It is not very much use talking to men who are thoroughly informed. What we want to do is to go out into the country and get the public to understand the necessity of thorough scientific research. I suggested to Professor McLennan at that time that if his lecture were delivered to an audience of business men it would have very much more effect than if delivered to technical men. I think the members of the house can spread this gospel very acceptably. If they will do that throughout the length and breadth of the country and stimulate the public interest it will strengthen public opinion in favour of granting the necessary money and the necessary encouragement, and will have the effect of promoting the development of this work in connection with our universities.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I think that we on this side of the house appreciate very much indeed the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) and if he is to have the direction and control of this work, so far as the government is concerned, I should like to suggest to him that I know of no department of human endeavour upon which large sums of money may be so uselessly and inefficiently expended as upon national research. In many parts of the United States they have attempted, by way of industrial research, to start from the elements up, thinking that it was quite unworthy of their institutions that they 
should profit by the results of the scientific investigations made during the past fifty years by other countries. That is one way of spending public money, or money privately contributed, most inefficiently and uselessly, and I suggest to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, or to the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart), whoever may have the matter in charge, that the results of scientific research in every country of the world, except so far as it is made confidentially by private industry, is open to them to-day, and that they should profit to the utmost by the attainments and the achievements of other nations, up to the present time.
To do that Germany followed this method: She placed in every industrial country of the world some of the brightest young men out of her technical schools, keeping them abroad sometimes five, or six or seven years, to become acquainted with the most approved methods in engineering and in chemistry in which she has herself been so successful. Japan followed Germany's example. During the war I was temporarily in charge, as chairman of a board, of some seventy or eighty large engineering firms and the work which they were doing, and we had a request from the Japanese government to permit certain of their young men, whom they were sending abroad, to have access to the work which was being done and to be informed as to the results which were being accomplished. Japan placed large numbers of young men in England, in the United States, and in Canada in order that they might ascertain the methods and the processes which were being utilized to achieve certain satisfactory results, and they have profited since by the information which these young men took back with them.
I quite agree with the purport of the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I think it is satisfactory indeed that we have a gentleman in his office with the ideals and with the wide view of industrial conditions to which he has given expression to-night. But I suggest to him that his institute or his council of national research, by whatever name it may be called, should endeavour to place before the public, and especially before the industries of Canada, the results achieved by the industries of all foreign countries in the same line of work, in so far as their attainments may be made public; and if he were to publish from time to time some leaflets showing the results of these investigations abroad similar to the commercial reports which he now issues-many of which I, though not a commercial man, find most interesting indeed, although I think

National Research-Mr. Church
they may be improved in some respects with time-if these results were made known to our industries, it would help very much I believe in assisting our industrial research departments to achieve still better results. Further I think they should take into consideration, as they intend to do, the development of scientific research in our own educational institutions. We have, I know, in my own native province of Nova Scotia, been doing for some time very considerable advantageous and beneficial work for that community. In the city of Montreal during the last five years the provincial government, through one institution there, has been training young men as efficiently as they have ever been trained in any government institution in this country. In addition to that, there is technical training being carried on by McGill university. Those young men who are being so trained should be utilized by the council and sent abroad wherever there are industries being prosecuted that are akin to those we are undertaking here, and in which we are making research, so that they can study the processes in use abroad and bring home to us the latest scientific attainments of foreign countries for application to our industries here. We should not attempt in Canada to extend and diffuse our efforts over the whole broad field of industrial research, because to place our institutions on such a plane, and assure even moderate success, would take the entire revenues of this country; but by utilizing the information which is available to us abroad, and applying it t'o our own necessities, we will, I am sure, achieve the best results in the work which has been outlined by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Toronto Northwest):: The resolution before the housei Mr. Speaker, asks for a national research institute. Nero never fiddled while Rome burned like this government has done on this question, and the first thing Canada should do in the way of research is to dig up an all-Canadian tariff policy that will keep Canadians in Canada and give them a job in their own country. That is the first great comer stone in a scientific and industrial research policy.
We have one useless commission now dealing with industrial and scientific research known as the tariff board, to which the main economic questions of this country have been referred. We are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on that board, which fiddles with the tariff on behalf of the government while thousands of young Canadians go to the States in search of a job.
You can find out more about research in this country or the lack of it in the death and marriage notices in the papers than you could learn from the statements of the two ministers here to-night. Just the other day I read of a railway man 48 years of age having been killed in Toronto. One of his sons came home from Detroit just recently to get married, and now his other two sons, twenty and eighteen years of age respectively, have also come home from Detroit, where they had gone to get a job, for the funeral. These men along with thousands of other young Canadians have been driven across the border because of the lack of knowledge and study and research on the part of the government in the matter of a proper economic policy for this country. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) is not going the right way about solving this problem. He was in England not long ago. I wonder why he did not bring before the house the recommendations of the empire marketing board in regard to agriculture and industry of all kinds. It would have been better for him to do that than to create another large spending government department to spend money like the tariff board is doing. The government should do something practical. Let them lay down a policy of giving grants to the different universities that are carrying on research work in different lines-medicine at McGill, for instance, and science and medicine at Toronto university.
I should just like to quote one paragraph of the report of the empire marketing board of London, England, and suggest to the two ministers who have spoken to-night that if they want to do something practical along the line of scientific and industrial research they should provide the members of this house with a copy of that report, and act on its recommendations. Here is that board's recommendation on research:-
The board has made no attempt itself to engage directly in scientific research. Its proper part was seen clearly from the outset to be that of fortifying existing scientific institutions in such measure as would enable them to intensify or develop their work, and of making possible the establishment of new institutions to meet new and proven needs. Moreover, in deciding upon the allocation of grants for research, the board has consistently been guided by the different government organizations, whether at home or overseas, that tvere best qualified to advise it.
I suggest to the minister that instead of providing another large institute he should utilize the organizations that are already in existence carrying on scientific research, namely, the universities. There is in Toronto one scientific organization that has been in

National Research-Mr. Church
existence for from forty to fifty years-the Canadian institute on College street.
As I said when speaking in the house on this question two or three years ago, everybody agrees with the necessity for scientific research. As Premier Baldwin of Great Britain says, "shock absorbers" are necessary in industry. Take the radio, for instance. As I said in a speech on the budget in 1926, from which I now quote, "it almost ousted the phonograph, but the makers of the latter instrument were forced to make a better product, and it kept its place. Gas illumination was almost ruined by electric light, and the gas mantle saved it. Nickel companies were satisfied to produce for warfare purposes only, but now they are turning to many useful domestic lines. Coal fuel is in a bad way; this industry had no shock absorbers because it was of the opinion that it had a perpetual monopoly, when along came petroleum and gasoline. Great Britain, United States, Germany and Canada are countries where the coal business is in a bad way. The by-products of coal can and should be utilized, and will give larger profits than the raw product itself; I predict that in twenty years every coal mine in the country will make liquid fuel at the mine. According to the Montreal papers the Canadian Pacific Railway have placed orders for more coal burning locomotives, but the oil burning car has come to stay. A new type of gasoline which is now being put on the market will revolutionize the type of motors used in automobiles. The vast future of nitrogen will cause a great upheaval in agriculture. Every industry is being revolutionized by new scientific discoveries. If business is not associated with scientific men, business will go to the wall. The national research council is doing good work, and can keep industry informed of what is going on. It can show the time to draw in on one business and expand on another, and any banker should know how that information will affect industry."
If the minister wants to do something practical in scientific research, let him give grants on a standard basis and let him help the universities that are carrying on this work. Two years ago practically the entire class in electrical engineering at one of our large universities had to go to the United States to look for jobs, notwithstanding the magnificent development of our water powers. The government should lay down the basis and specifications on this question on which universities could get grants. Many of our most brilliant students who have won the highest honours in medicine, scientific chem-

istry, and other branches of scientific work, have to take menial jobs as cooks and waiters on the boats on the great lakes and the St. Lawrence in the summertime; they should be engaged on research work by a government policy. So I appeal to the minister to do something practical and give more money to the universities and hospitals and science schools, which have been pioneers in research work.
We have listened to a good' many speeches on scientific research to-night. There are too many of these Neros fiddling on their violins to the tune of scientific research, about which they know nothing. A proper tariff policy would do more for this country in one week than any other agency I know of for scientific and industrial research.
Scientific industrial research can do nothing to aid the manufacturers of Canada without at the same time helping the manufacturers of the United States, and any money that we spend on scientific research work in this country will benefit also the people of the United States. As I said before, the main research we want is a research which will keep our raw materials in our own country, and a research for a tariff policy which will stop the spending in the United States of 8600,000,000 of Canadian money for high priced American goods from that country, many of which are made out of our raw materials. We pay for these goods in the raw materials of our country. These raw materials will soon, be gone, unless we find a scientific research and industrial tariff policy that will provide employment for the. men of Canada, 88,000 of whom are driven out of Canada and sent to the United States every year. These 600,000 Canadians-or 88,000 per year, as I have figured it out

have had an overdose of research work and have gone to the States to look for a job. What do these 600,000 noble Romans care for the violin playing of the Neros on the government side who fiddle with this question here? How will this scientific research proposal now benefit them?
I think the government should co-ordinate its work in this direction with the scientific research work of the universities, in reference not only to medicine and manufactures, but to electricity, chemistry, and by-producte as well, and instead of imposing on the taxpayers of the country another large government department with a lot of officials, it would be far better if the government adopted the policy of the empire marketing board in England, where the government lays down u

National Research-Mr. Cantley
specification for the universities, where those engaged in industrial and scientific research can qualify for grants.
It seems the government policy of the country so far is search and research to discover capital on the seven seas where we have not an ambassador. That is the limit of our research. I commend the wisdom of the member who brought this matter before the house, but I believe you would get far better results from a policy that would hand the money to universities and other departments I have named, to spend on a standard government plan and specification. I believe the main -research which the country wants is a research policy that will frame a Canadian tariff that will provide work in Canada for the Canadians, so that we can keep our young men at home. A large number of Canadian graduates of universities go to the States annually to make a living, not only in chemistry, but in other trades and professions. We would get far better results if we could formulate a Canadian tariff and economic policy that would keep them at home.


Mr. THOMAS CANTLEY (Pictou):: I
hesitate at such a late hour to join in the general discussion, but I have listened with a great deal of interest to practically every member who has spoken on the matter before the house, and with the exception of perhaps my hon. friend who has just resumed ihis seat (Mr. Church) the discussion has been along practical lines. I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) what he has in his mind as to what the government will do in regard to industrial research. I was much interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) who made an excellent speech. His only error was that of exaggeration, and he did exaggerate, which I think greatly weakened his case. We in this country, in common with the mother country, have made progress mainly through the old road to progress, which is by trial and error. In that way was worked out for us nine-tenths of the problems in the industrial fields. The pioneers in industry in this country, as in other countries, wrought out without scientific research, and in most cases without scientific knowledge, a great many of the fundamental problems of this country, as was also done in other countries.
Take the steel business. I go back forty years in my experience in connection with that business, the only one I can claim to have any practical knowledge of. About the year 1888 we in New Glasgow changed over from acid to basic steel manufacture. We had to
get a refractory furnace lining that was basic, or either basic or neutral. Where did we get the material? We actually brought dolomite from Great Britain when we had millions of tons of it within two or three miles of our furnaces. We afterwards brought magnesite from Austria, and I remember well the problemt we had to meet and solve at that time, when we actually paid as much as 28 cents each for nine by four and a half inch bricks. Few people are familiar with the history of the conditions incident to those early days. These problems are now all worked out, but we then had to work them out very largely without the assistance which is now proposed to be given to industry.
Our progress in ail branches of industry in the future should be very much greater than it has been in the past; I have not any doubt it will be, and it ought to be. Some questions were brought up as to unused raw materials, and our friend from Bow River referred to tar sands. Then our attention was directed by other speakers as to what might be got out of sawdust and hemlock bark. The problem connected with these products is largely a matter of transportation, that is the question to be solved in regard to the treatment and utilization of products of that kind. Scientific research will not solve that problem. We know that we can extract the oil from the tar sands, but the difficulty is that these sarids are so far removed from where the product can be used, and the sands so much disseminated, that it is primarly a question of transportation and not of treatment. I hope the minister will make a little faster progress than, as I gather from his remarks, he is likely to make.
The other point I would like to stress is this: I think it would be of some advantage to him and great advantage to the country to take counsel with some of the practical men in industry. The difficulty with all these scientific gentlemen is that they are inclined to run higher and higher and deeper and deeper into scientific questions and overlook the practical questions that lie under our feet, which are really the important ones. If you will consider all the great advances made in the mechanical arts I think you will find that in the majority of cases they have been wrought not by scientific men in colleges, but by the practical men in intimate touch with the work that lay before them day by day. Take Colt and Bessemer, take Thomas and Gilchrist, Martin, Riley, and all the great men in the iron industry: not one of them was a scientific man, and for the most part they were practical workers who mixed brains and

National Research-Mr. Bennett
observation with their daily work. These facts must not be forgotten. If the minister is to make a success of the enterprise upon which we are now embarking, I think he will gain enormously if, before finally deciding the details of the establishment, he will take counsel with men who have a practical knowledge of the many problems that confront them in the various industries of the country which he plans to serve by his project of scientific research.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Speaker, I desire to direct
attention to the fact that the resolution now under consideration does not involve the payment of public moneys for the purposes mentioned by the minister. Therefore I do not propose at this time to discuss the matter, reserving it for the moment when the estimates are under consideration. But this I do desire to say: I do not think the country is ready to see the duplication of these activities established in all parts of the Dominion. There are several state or provincial universities actively engaged in this work; there is one in British Columbia, one in Alberta, one in Saskatchewan, one in Manitoba, and one in the great province of Ontario. To each of those universities large sums of money are voted from year to year, and very considerable portions of that money are devoted to the purposes of industrial and other research. Instances were mentioned to-night as to the methods pursued and the results obtained in some of the provinces by virtue of those expenditures. But if we are to establish at Ottawa a national research institute for the whole of Canada, as the minister suggests, we must be extremely careful that we do not duplicate the activities already existing, and expend money for purposes for which money is already being spent in other places.
For instance-although perhaps this is not the time to discuss it-the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) spoke of what was being done in the pulp and paper industry.
I think when the matter is investigated it will be found that it is an effort on the part of the Dominion government to duplicate what is being done so well at McGill university. Again, the work that is being done in this city with respect to animal husbandry has produced wonderful results, but similar work on another scale is being done in all the provinces. Then take the work that is being carried on in the Connaught laboratories, a very valuable work-I have not the time to discuss it now. In short, in every part of Canada you will find research work 
being conducted, and we must be careful not to duplicate those efforts if we are to-make this undertaking the success that we all hope it will be.
But what my friend from St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) said is, I submit, muck more to the point. Having at our disposal the advantage of the wide knowledge obtained by the hundred and ten millu-ns of people to the south of us at an expenditure of fifty million dollars and more per annum, and of the experiments carried on in Germany, it does occur to me that ona of the first things we should do is to expend public moneys for the purpose of ensuring that the knowledge thus obtained in other parts of the world shall be made available for our own people. That, it seems to me, is one of the great uses of this industrial research bureau. There is a tendency-not confined to Canada alone-when you place certain persons in authority, and give them the opportunity, for them to endeavour to extend their activities and to carry on their operations over a very wide field. That I think is something we have all experienced.
While perhaps it is not the exact moment for me to make these observations, in view of what the Minister of Trade and Commerce has said to-night, I venture -to suggest that a very earnest effort be made to see to it that whatever experiments are carried out and whatever research is undertaken will be something of a practical character and that the results will be made available to the Canadian people. We should utilize not only the knowledge which we ourselves obtain, but also the wide knowledge available to us by reason of the researches and experiments conducted in other countries. I could give my own experience of coming in contact with men from foreign lands who were visiting this and other British dominions merely for the purpose of ascertaining what knowledge had been obtained by experiments and research work in order to utilize it in their own country. That is important. I desire to add my voice to what has been said by my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George as to the desirability of careful scrutiny of every effort that is being made to ensure that we utilize not only our best brains for scientific effort in this country, but also the methods and the wonderful knowledge that has come to us from other countries.
There is just one difficulty. I think we should not have too high hopes and expectations with respect to this matter. I remember during the war the representatives of a great American firm coming into our far west to

Lignite Coal-Mr. Kaiser
look over some very valuable mineral deposits there. They were convinced that during the war they could be made very valuable, but they stated frankly that our limited population meant that the by-products would be without a market. It does occur to me that when we are dealing with tar sands hundreds of miles in the northern part *of Alberta, we must always remember that as long as we have near at hand raw products that can be made available at lesser cost than the far-away raw products, the former will have the preference. That is a fact we must always bear in mind in a country such as ours with a limited population.
I do not intend to discuss the matter further, Mr. Speaker, than to say that the effort which the government is now making is a tardy recognition of the untiring zeal that characterized the efforts of Mr. Hume Cronyn, to whom the Minister of Trade and Commerce has referred, and of those who in that day constituted the government of Canada to promote an intelligent and lively interest in the problems of scientific research. Let me repeat, I do trust that there will be no duplication of effort, that money will not he improperly expended as it may be by reason of the tendency of human nature to extend its efforts over wider areas than are consistent with the attainment of the best results; and above all, that we utilize the moneys available for the purpose of making known to Canadians the achievements of scientists in other parts of the world to discover how best to deal with industrial and other problems.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Mr. T. E. KAISER (Ontario) moved:: That, in the opinion of this house, the government of the Dominion of Canada should immediately initiate such measures and take such other steps as may be necessary to bring about the utilization and transport of our vast deposits of lignite and bituminous coal, by their conversion into crude oil and other valuable commodities of every day life.
He said: Mr. Speaker, the subject of this resolution is attracting a great deal of attention not only of the people of Canada who happen to have been studying it, but also those of other countries. It seems to me fitting on my part to say that I have been interested in this subject more or less for a number of years, having some twenty years ago associated myself with the undertaking of producing
gas for the city of Oshawa. That association induced me to make a study of the chemistry of coal. During recent years, especially the last twelve months, certain matters brought to the attention of the people of Canada have aroused a tremendous interest in the subject. In order that we may visualize our interests in it as Canadian people I would draw the attention of the house to certain facts which confront me. In the first place the Dominion of Canada has a deposit of 1,250 billion tons of coal. This is a tremendous figure. In 1890 a commission in England undertook to investigate the quantity of coal there was in England and it found that there was a deposit of 100 billion tons of coal in that country, so that for every ton of coal that England ever possessed the Dominion of Canada can lay down twelve and one-half tons. From sixteen to twenty per cent of the coal of the world is contained within Canada. That is a tremendous thought.
The next thought is that we import 480 [DOT] million gallons of oil and 58 million gallons of gasoline per annum. What have we in the way of production in this Dominion? For every 100 barrels of oil used an this country only one is produced here. The next thought that impels me to say something on this subject is that, in spite of all that we may say there is coming over Canada and the United States a great change in the method of heating our houses in the cities and in regard to the general consumption of coal. The use of fuel oil is a matter that commands our attention. I find, for instance, that about seven per cent of the heating in Toronto is by oil and oil furnaces. Mr. Taylor, the head of the coal industry of the United States, has placed himself on record in this regard, that for heating purposes in that country oil has taken the place of coal to such an extent that in one year, 1925, it has displaced 200 million tons of coal. We are therefore confronted with the increasing use of fuel oil, its convenience and its fascinating features, and with the fact that we have very little of it in Canada.
Let us look at this matter from another point of view. We complain of so much coal being imported from the United States. It is not the coal that we object to: it is the adverse balance of trade of $216,000,000; that we wish to restore by using our own coal, and that from a sentimental point of view we would prefer to use our own. But we are not making any headway towards a balance of trade if we simply change from the consumption of coal ito the consumption of oil, if the oil comes from the United States of America. In 1927 a metallurgical congress was held in this Dominion, and among
Lignite Coal-Mr. Kaiser

the men who came here was Sir Robert Horn who told us that the British Empire uses 11 million tons of oil a year. He also said that the whole empire produced only 3 million tons of oil and that we depended upon other countries for the remaining S million tons of oill per annum. He along with Sir Richard Redmayne pointed out that within the Dominion of Canada we had deposits, vast, wonderful, beyond all measure, from which possibly the oil used in the British Empire might be found in the future.
Let me come now to another point. I agree with a great deal of what has been said with regard to research, but I would point out that ais regards the matter which I am trying to discuss the world has passed the period of research. We are not discussing to-night something that is yet to be discovered; we are going to confine our attention for a few moments to something that is already found. The matter is one not of research but of the application of knowledge which has been evolved by other people in other parts of the world. In 1926 at Pittsburgh the congress of bituminous coal people gathered and a German named Frederick Bergius appeared upon the scene, who read a paper entitled "The liquefaction and hydrogenation of coal." This paper attracted the attention of the scientific world and to-day his statements and findings are matters of world interest. In 1921 he came to Canada and obtained a patent for a process which he had evolved. In 1923 he again came to Canada and took out another patent. In 1926 he came to Canada once more and took out a third patent. This patent was with regard to processes which he had evolved and the details of which he announced in Pittsburgh in November, 1926. I am not prepared to say that the findings of Bergius constitute the last word in the evolution of this great question, but I am prepared to say that what Frederick Bergius discovered and what he evolved is a matter of first-rate, vast importance to this and every other country. If I am mistaken in saying that-and I m-ight be-my mistake is shared by some very practical and important people. Is it not marvellous to think that the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey, managed by probably the best and most astute business men in the United States, should have gone to Germany and purchased from Bergius the right to manufacture oil from coal in the whole of the United States? It is a marvellous thing that Germany should have backed this process with $500,000 the first year, increasing the amount year by year; it is a marvellous thing if the best business minds of England have been deceived in this matter, because in

writing to Bergius and asking certain details in regard to this process, he referred me to a syndicate in England known as the British Bergius Syndicate, which bought the patent right to produce oil from coal in the whole British Empire. I was curious to learn who was at the back of this particular move in England. A friend of mine in London sent me the prospectus of the company which has taken over these patents and now holds them for the Dominion of Canada, and I find that the company is capitalized at $275,000,000, so there is something substantial in it. At the head of the company is Right Hon. Sir Alfred Mond, who is well known in Canada and who is regarded as a first class business man all over the world. Associated with him are such men as Sir Harry McGowan, Right Hon. Lord Ashfield, Sir John Brunner, a name well known in business circles, the Marquis of Reading, P.C., G.C.B., G.C.V.O., G.M.S.I., G.M.I.E., and others; so it will be seen that leading business men of the British Empire are behind this process.
I would like to say just a word or two in regard to the process itself. For a great number of years chemists have been endeavouring to produce oil out of coal by what is commonly called the breaking-down process, but this man Bergius got it in his mind that this end could be attained by a synthetic method. A ton of coal was found to consist of sixteen parts of carbon to one part of hydrogen, while oil consists of eight parts of carbon to one part of hydrogen. Other scientists undertook to reduce the carbon content, but Bergius injected hydrogen and raised the hydrogen content to produce the oil in this way, and he succeeded to the extent of having his process backed by millions of dollars in Germany. He now has a plant in that country which is expected to turn out this year 100,000,000 gallons of crude oil, which will then be put through the distillation process. It has been found that a quality of coal suitable to this process will produce 30 per cent of gasoline, 30 per cent of fuel oil, 30 per cent of lubricating oil, and will leave a residue of only 10 per cent. The statement points out that this process will apply to any kind of coal except anthracite, but it has a particular application to lignite, and he has found that in putting even lignite coal through his process there are many varieties of that Class of coal which require minor changes in the process.
I suppose technical details would be wearisome at this time of night, but I do say that it strikes me as wrong that anyone outside of Canada should secure a patent which will tie up some of the natural resources of this coun-

Patent Act
try and prevent the application thereto of our own genius and talent. I claim that in this case the government should have an option on this particular process, because if it turns out in the way anticipated it will have a tremendous application in this country. We should look upon our natural resources as assets to be developed-I believe the people of Canada are getting a little tired of hearing politicians speak of our great resources, and so on, ad libitum. We should undertake to do something with those resources.


Hewitt Bostock: It is now eleven o'clock. The hon. gentleman will retain his position on the next private members' day.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Tuesday, February 14, 1928