1928-06-05

CONCURRENCE IN REPORT OF PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS COMMITTEE

[Stage Direction]
On motion of Mr. J. J. Denis (Joliette) the second and final report of the select standing committee on privileges and elections was concurred in.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. II. KING (Minister of Health) moved:
That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their honours that this house agrees to their amendments to clauses 4, 5 subsection 4 (1), 5 subsection 4 (3) inserted, 24, 29, 32 subsection 6 and new clause A, and disagrees to their amendments to clauses 2 (a), 7, 12, 25, 30, (10), and 31 to bill No. 289, an act to amend the Pension Act, for the following reasons:
Because in respect of clause 30, subsection 10, the amendments made by the Senate differ in form and substance from those made by them to clause 5, subsection 4 (1) and are likely to cause confusion and misunderstanding in their interpretation. There is no objection to requiring the approval of the commission or of the board before the payment of accounts, but the right to question expenditure must lie with the minister who is responsible to parliament for the proper use of the moneys with which he is entrusted.
This safeguard is implied in subsection 4 (1) of clause 5 as amended by the Senate in the provision that the commission shall be attached to the department. There is no such safeguard provided in the amendment by the Senate to subsection 10 of clause . 30. The board should not possess a greater control of expenditure than that given to the commission. It is considered that the situation would be clarified and the two bodies placed upon an equal footing in this respect if an amendment similar to that made to subsection 4 (1) of clause 5, were made to subsection (10) of clause 30. The subsection would then read as follows:
"The board shall be attached to the department and the expenses required to be incurred

Pension Act-Senate Amendments
for the discharge of its duties, including the salaries of its officers, clerks, and other employees shall, on approval by the board, be paid, out of the moneys provided by parliament."
Because in respect of clause 12, while this house concurs in the amendments made by the Senate as to the special tribunal that is to consider cases claimed to be specially meritorious it is not clear what course must be followed by the applicant before he presents his application to such special tribunal. The term "entitlement" as used in the amendments made by the Senate is not defined by the Pension Act. There are several cases which might properly be made the subject of an award of a compassionate pension or allowance which are obviously not pensionable as a matter of right under the Pension Act. If it is intended that before applications are made to the special tribunal, the applicant must first apply to the commission in all cases, even if obviously not provided for in the Pension Act, and must make a further application to the board only in those cases, where, under the Pension Act, an appeal lies to the board, it is considered that such intention would be made clear by deleting the words "and in which entitlement has been refused by the commission, and by the board where the right of appeal exists" as contained in the amendments made by the Senate and substituting therefor "and in which pension has been refused by the commission, or if an appeal lies to the board, both by the commission and by the board
Because in respect of clauses 2 (a), 7, 25 and 31, this house adopted these clauses unanimously. They were based upon the report of the special committee of this house on pensions and returned soldiers' problems, who were unanimous in their findings and recommendations. The said committee held forty-seven sessions and heard representatives of various soldier organizations throughout Canada, departmental officers, the chairman and officials both of the commission and of the board. The report of the special committee was concurred in unanimously hy this house. The clauses are designed to remove grievances which the special committee considered well founded and to extend the payment of pensions to persons who ought to be entitled thereto. The amendments to these clauses made by the Senate are considered to be not in the public interest.
Because in respect of clause 7, under the provisions of section 11a of the Pension Act, although pension is paid to a member of the forces in respect of the aggravation of an injury or disease existing prior to enlistment resulting in disability where such aggravation was attributable to or was incurred during military service, yet no pension is payable to the dependents of such member of the forces on his death unless it is proved to the commission that such aggravation was itself the cause of his death, the object of this house in passing clause 7 was to provide for the payment of pensions to the dependents of such member of the forces on his death where the aggravation although not itself the cause of his death was a substantial factor in causing it. The clause is easier of application than the present law and would give a greater latitude to the commission to award pensions in accordance with the fundamental principle of the Pension Act that a pension shall be paid to the dependents
of a deceased member of the forces if the death of such member took place during or was attributable to his military service.
Because in respect of clause 25 it is considered that the provisions of section 32 of the Pension Act, that no pension shall be paid to the widow of a member of the forces unless she was married to him before the appearance of the injury or disease which resulted in his death, are too wide in their extent. While it is in the public interest not to pay a pension to a woman who married a member of the forces in the expectation that she would receive a pension upon his death, it is not in the public interest or just that pensions should be denied to all widows who come within the class described in section 32. Nor is it in the public interest that members of the forces who have suffered disability by reason of military service should be in a different position as regards marriage from other members of the forces. The object of this house in passing clause 25 was to provide pensions in deserving cases, at the same time providing necessary safeguards. It is considered that difficulties of interpretation and application might be overcome by providing that a pension shall be paid to the widow of a member of the forces, notwithstanding her marriage to him after the appearance of the injury or disease which resulted in his death, provided that such marriage took place prior to the coming into force of the Pension Act of 1919, or that at the time of such marriage the member of the forces was not over forty years of age, was not in receipt of a pension in respect of the injury or disease which resulted in his death, and was not seriously ill.
Because in respect of clause 2a, which defines the term "appearance of the injury or disease" as the same is used in section 32 of the Pension Act, it is considered that the provisions of the said section ought not to extend to the widow of a member of the forces who was married to him after the appearance of an injury or disease and after such injury or disease had been reduced sufficiently to permit him to serve in a theatre of actual war, provided the marriage was prior to the recurrence of such injury or disease.
Because in respect of clause 31 under the provisions of section 51 of the Pension Act the only question on which an appeal lies from the decision of the commission is as to whether the injury or disease or aggravation thereof resulting in disability or death was attributable to or incurred during military service. The object of this house in passing clause 31 was to widen the scope of appeal. It is in the public interest that the returned soldiers and their dependents should have confidence in the administration of the Pension Act, and this object would have been accomplished by providing for a review by the board of decisions of the commission where applicants felt themselves aggrieved. It is considered that an appeal should lie to the board on decisions made, for example, under the provisions of sections 12, 30, 32, 33, 34 and 39 of the Pension Act. Clause 30 would have provided an appeal and an opportunity of correcting error, subject to the proviso therein contained, on such questions. By reason of the amendments by the Senate no such appeal is allowed.
And that the Clerk do carry the said message to the Senate.
3726	COMMONS
Pension Act-Senate Amendments
He said:	In moving that we disagree with,
the Senate amendments referred to I wish to say that a great deal of consideration was given the amendments to the Pension Act by a special committee of this house, who unanimously reported in favour of the bill which was presented to this house, and adopted unanimously by the house. The matter is one which deals with a great social problem of the Canadian people, the care of the men and the dependents of the men who served overseas. There has been at all times a desire among the Canadian people to do full justice to the returned soldiers and their dependents, who served the Canadian people during the war overseas. This bill was sent to the Senate and has 'been returned to this house with certain amendments; certain sections considered important by the House of Commons have been deleted. We think the matter of sufficient importance to disagree with these changes, and I therefore move that this message be sent to the Senate in order that they may have an opportunity of reconsidering the sections which they have deleted and the other changes they have made.
Mr. C. G. POWER (Quebec South):: I wish to say only a word or two regarding this motion, referring to the particular clause which asks the Senate to reconsider its decision with respect to widows who had married ex-soldiers after the appearance of disability. The underlying principle laid down by those who first looked after pension legislation was that any woman who married a soldier after he had been injured or had incurred illness on service, would not upon his death be entitled to a pension. This clause has been considered too restricted and committees of the House of Commons, and the house itself, have on four separate occasions passed legislation to amend the act with respect to this very deserving class of widows.
This year the committee brought in a unanimous report which was concurred in unanimously by the house, and when the discussion took place in this chamber there was no difference of opinion on the principle. The amendment of the committee apparently did not satisfy the members of the Senate, who stated that it was unworkable and that it was perhaps too broad. However, for the first time, I learn that members of the Senate have agreed in principle that, with proper safeguards, the widow who in good faith married a member of the forces who returned from overseas suffering from an injury or disease contracted on service should receive a pension. There is no difference of opinion with regard to the principle, and it seems to

me that if the Senate and the House of Commons have agreed in principle, surely we should be able to find some formula or phraseology which will give a pension to this most deserving class of people. That is the situation as it stands to-day. I freely admit, as chairman of the committee, that fault might be found with the amendment which was sent up to the committee, but I am not prepared to agree that it was altogether unworkable, nor am I prepared to agree that it was too broad. If an injustice is being done a certain class of persons in this country, it is preposterous to go to the country and say we know the injustice is being done but the united wisdom of the House of Commons and of the Senate is incapable of formulating a provision to rectify it.
We have had informal conferences-perhaps they were not constitutional-at which members of the committee, the Minister of Pensions and Health, the Minister of National Defence and members of the house have appeared before the Senate committee. Due to the emphatic and blunt pronouncement of my hon. friend from Kingston (Mr. Ross) we were able to save one clause from the wreck, that which did away with the limitation of time for making application for pension.
If this house is unanimously of the opinion that a clause should be inserted in the bill to provide for this class of people, we should be able to say to the house, with the assistance of the officers of the Department of Soldiers Civil Re-establishment, that the members of the committee on pensions are prepared to make any suggestion and to discuss the whole question with the members of the Senate or of the Senate committee. More than that, any member of the house who knows the Pension Act is prepared to offer his services. The leader of the opposition, a gentleman of high legal standing, and, may I say without irony, a master of phraseology and a moulder of words, would I am sure be only too glad to join with members on the other side of the house to discuss this question with the members of the Senate in an effort to find a solution of the difficulty.
Mr. JEAN J. DENIS (Joliette):	I have
just one word to say before this motion is allowed to pass. It has been my privilege in the past to be chairman of a committee similar to the one that was sitting this year, and it is needless for me to say that I am in entire sympathy with the desire to give due recognition to the rights and privileges of the soldiers; I want every returned man and his family to receive the pension to

Supply-Hudson Bay Railway
which they are entitled. On the other hand, I am against what you might call the speculators; the country must be very careful to see that this class of people are not included in the amendments passed each year.
It must be remembered that in the United States after the civil war a very serious state of affairs developed. I will not go into details because the facts are well known to everyone. I might however point out that at present the amount that the country is paying for pensions to returned soldiers and their dependents is several million dollars more that it was, say, five years after the war was over. One would imagine that ten years after t'he conclusion of the war the amount paid for pensions should begin to decrease; but it is not decreasing, it is increasing every year. I have not the exact figures under my hand but I know them practically by heart. About five, six or seven years ago we were paying $31,000,000, $32,000,000, $33,000,000 a year, whereas now we are paying $40,000,000 a year. Therefore I think parliament should be very careful in the passing of legislation all the time enlarging the number of pensioners. No doubt it is on that principle that the senate rejected part of the bill that was passed by the Commons. In resuming my seat I wish to repeat once more that I am in entire sympathy with returned men and I want them to receive all the good the country can give them, but I am not in sympathy with those who may, under cover of being dependents of returned men, be preying on the country's generosity.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Monday, May 14, consideration of Bill No. 288, to amend the Soldier Settlement Act.-Hon. Mr. Forke- Mr. Johnston in the chair.
The CHAIRMAN:: The last time the bill was before the committee all the sections were adopted.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.	'



DEPARTMENT OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Railways and Canals-chargeable to capital -Hudson Bay railway and terminals: construction and betterments, including E. B. Jost at $2,500, $6,500,000.
Mr. LUCAS:: Will the minister give an explanation of this appropriation?
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals): Perhaps a brief statement regarding the progress being made and what is contemplated in the current fiscal year would be advisable at this stage. In 1926, as the committee will remember, the Hudson Bay railway consisted of 332 miles of railway which had been constructed ten to fifteen yeans previously and which had gone completely out of condition. The original ties on the road were all of native spruce and they had all rotted in the intervening period. A large proportion of the construction being over muskeg country, the embankment had gone very badly out of condition. The telegraph line was completely destroyed. There were no water facilities and no engine terminal facilities at any point on the line.
It will be remembered that at the session of 1926 provision was made in the estimates for the rehabilitation of the existing line of railway. That work has since proceeded and it is now well toward completion. Engine terminal facilities have been provided at the commencement of the line at Le Pas and at mile 137, and another engine terminal is now under construction at mile 327. In addition steel has been laid beyond mile 332 to mile 356, whidh is the present end of steel, six miles beyond the Limestone river. It will be remembered that last year there was placed in the estimates a further appropriation to complete the reconditioning of the existing track and at the same time an intimation was given to the house that an investigation would be conducted during 1927 regarding the matter of ocean terminals. That investigation, as was announced in the house last session, was conducted by Mr. Frederick Palmer, president of the British Institution of Civil Engineers. I had the privilege of accompanying Mr. Palmer on the journey to Hudson bay. He and his assistant also spent some time here on the first trip to this country, going through all the records of the department in relation to the whole enterprise, and coming bach again in the month of July and early August to make an actual inspection of Nelson and Churchill on the ground. As a result of that work, Mr. Palmer reported very emphatically in favour of making the terminus of the Hudson Bay railway, Churchill, rather than Nelson. His report was published by the government immediately and was given very wide circulation. I think every member of the house received at least one copy of it, and a number of members more than one, and therein are set out the economic reasons for the recommendations made.

Supply-Hudson Bay Railway
Briefly I can summarize them by saying that there is no question in the mind of Mr. Palmer or of any of the Canadian engineers who ao-oompanied the party that Churchill can be more cheaply, more economically developed into a safer port than Nelson. If in the subsequent discussion further information is desired than that brief statement, which I think a careful reading of the report on the part of any member will confirm, I shall be glad to give the information.
With regard to the extension, of the railway to Churchill, the construction work is in the hands of the Canadian National Railways in the same manner as the reconstruction of the original track. The Canadian National has let the contract for the grading of the last piece of line from the present end of steel to Churchill.
The vote asked for this year is $6,500,000, of which $3,500,000 is for railway purposes and $3,000,000 for port development. It will be understood that in making arrangements for the construction of the port a large portion of the initial expenditure must necessarily be on equipment to do the work. I may say that every effort was made to get ready for active construction work at the port during the fall and winter of 1927. Immediate instructions were given, following the confirmation by the government of Churchill as the terminus, to have the dredge Kennequ-hair which was built many years ago for Hudson bay service', and which was then at Halifax, transferred to Churchill during the fall of 1927, the idea being that if a dredge could be placed at Churchill during 1927 it would be immediately available for work in the season of 1928. Hon. members will understand the difficulty of attempting, with our present knowledge of navigation conditions, to get into the bay before the month of July, it is not practical to expect that a dredge shipped into Churchill in the month of July or August could accomplish very much in the way of dredging work in the season during which she travels from the Nova Scotia coast to Churchill. Unfortunately, although the Kennequhair was sent to Churchill, it was necessaiy, in a storm in the north Atlantic, in order to save the lives of the crew of the tug and the crew of the dredge, for the tug to cut the hawser after three days of very stormy weather, and consequently the Kennequhair was lost. That has rendered it necessary to provide new dredging equipment, and in all probability that will involve some delay in the completion of the dredging work at Churchill. Every effort is being made by the department to speed up the work consistent with the necessary provisions for safety. It

is not an easy task to construct a great engineering enterprise so far from our normal business and industrial bases, and particularly is that the case with respect to floating equipment, because it must of necessity be sent in by sea, and there is the limitation of the navigation conditions ais we presently know them in that regard.
The department conducted an investigation into the loss of the Kennequhair, and we cannot attribute blame to any individual with respect thereto. The loss was incurred not in the straits or in the bay, but in the waters of the north Atlantic. There was, if my memory of the report serves me aright, a continuous storm for three days. The dredge was being towed by the tug on a hawser, a leak developed and this gradually increased until on the third night it was not deemed safe to allow the crew to remain on the dredge. Consequently, when it became dark, those members of the crew who were on the dredge were transferred by orders of the navigator to the tug for their safety, and during the night it became necessary to cut the hawser and let the dredge go. She sank immediately. These are things, of course, which we must expect occasionally in attempting enterprises of this character. Wie hope for better luck in the future.
During the winter arrangements were made to transfer as much as possible of the useful equipment at Nelson to Churchill. For that purpose Lynn tractors, commonly used in large lumbering enterprises, were employed, and a large amount of useful material has been transferred overland from Nelson to Churchill in order that it may be available during the coming summer. Hon. members who are familiar with the sea will understand that the first job to do this summer is to arrange for some landing facilities at Churchill, some temporary pier construction in order that the vessels arriving there may unload economically instead of having to transfer in deep water to smaller boats or scows. The material is being assembled for that purpose, and it is proposed this year to send in approximately 13,500 tons of material by sea. It is hoped by the time the material reaches Churchill that the force now there, with the material now there, will have a temporary pier constructed in such a manner as to enable all material to be unloaded in the most economical fashion.
That is all I have in mind at the moment. I expect a number of inquiries, and shall endeavour to give as much further detail o" the committee may desire.

Supply-Hudson Bay Railway


Mr. CANTLEY:: Would the minister be
good enough to repeat at what point the dredge was lost?


Mr. DUNNING:: I have not the exact
latitude and longitude, but it was in the north Atlantic, a considerable distance off the Labrador coast.


Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: How many
miles is it from the end of steel to Churchill, and what is the estimated cost to complete the line to Churchill? Secondly, how far would it be from that line when completed to Nelson? The line was originally intended to run to Nelson, but has been diverted to Churchill. Does the government contemplate building a line to Nelson from the main line running to Churchill?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am just looking up
the exact figures which are contained in Mr. Palmer's report. These were all carefully checked, and I prefer to use them rather than to rely on my memory. The diversion to Churchill occurs at a point seventy miles from Nelson, the line turning north at that point to Churchill.


John Wesley Edwards: That would be the nearest point on the line to Nelson?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, that is mile 356
from Le Pas, where the northward turn occurs. From that point it is 154 miles to Churchill and 68 miles to Nelson.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the estimated cost of completion of the line to Churchill?


Charles Avery Dunning: The extra capital cost
over and above what it would cost to build the line to Nelson is what my hon. friend is asking for?


John Wesley Edwards: No.


Charles Avery Dunning: I will give that figure
first; it has a bearing on the other. It will cost $5,085,000 more to build the line to Churchill than to Nelson. These are the figures of the Canadian National engineers. The total cost-I am sorry I cannot put my finger on this figure just now.


John Wesley Edwards: If you had
the cost to Port Nelson you could figure it out.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes. It is between seven and eight million dollars, but I prefer to be absolutely accurate.


John Wesley Edwards: The other
part of my question was:	Does the government contemplate building the sixty-eight miles from that point to Nelson, as well as the line on to Churchill?


Charles Avery Dunning: Not at the present time. Whatever may eventuate in the future we cannot foresee. If my hon. friend will read the whole engineering report with respect to the two places-


John Wesley Edwards: I have-


Charles Avery Dunning: It is possible. With the great development taking place in the northland at the present time, he would be a bold man indeed who would venture to state definitely that the line never would be built to Nelson. In view of the remarkable occurrences now taking place in that part of Canada, I prefer not to commit myself to stating that the line to Nelson will never be built. It may be, but for the present we cannot see any immediate necessity for it. Now I have the figures for my hon. friend. The railway to Nelson would cost $2,458,000, that is, from the point of junction, the cost of the railway to Churchill would be $7,543,000, the difference between the two being the figure I previously gave.
# Mr. IRVINE: Some months ago, Mr. Chairman, I noticed in the press a report to the effect that the government had taken steps to prevent speculation in real estate at the new port of Churchill. If the report is correct, I wish to congratulate the minister and the government. I think we all agree that the real estate speculation which has characterized the development of town sites in the west is something which is not healthy and, if preventable, it would be a great advantage to the general public. If the report is substantially correct, I desire to ask the minister what steps he proposes to take. I should like to know also if he is making an experiment with respect to this particular townsite-I think the time is ripe for it- which would prevent all such speculation as in the past took place in the west.


Charles Avery Dunning: Well, Mr. Chairman, I
can indicate to the committee the steps taken up to now. Immediately on the selection of Churchill as .the Hudson bay port one of the problems the department had to meet was with respect to the land ownership there. There was a certain amount of land on the west peninsula-on which most of the works will be situated-which had been owned by private parties for many years. The great bulk of the land was still in the crown under the Department of the Interior. I felt that

Supply-Hudson Bay Railway

considerable difficulty might arise, especially due to the fact that a large portion of the privately owned land was distant more than four miles from the point at which the port works would be situated. I may say frankly to my hon. friend that I visioned all sorts of possibilities of enterprising individuals offering lots for sale at Churchill which the unfortunate purchasers, later would find were approximately four miles from the port itself, and with the resultant trouble which always follows that sort of thing.


An hon. MEMBER:: As in a lot of western towns.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes. It was deemed
wise-the government accepted my recommendation in that regard-to expropriate all the privately owned property on the east peninsula at Churchill, and the present situation is that no private individuals own any property there. The Hudson's Bay Company has a certain area reserved on the west peninsula, on the other side of the harbour. I may say that an adjustment has not yet been made with the owners of the property expropriated. The department is endeavouring to secure some basis upon which to make a settlement. Failing that the matter will be dealt with in the usual way through the exchequer court It is rather a unique case, of course, because I suppose the privately owned property could be said to be practically worthless unless and until the port works and railway are built. However, it will be for the exchequer court to determine what compensation should be paid. The pioneer settler who homesteaded there had faith that that was the proper port for the Hudson bay. While he is dead and gone, I do not think this parliament would like to see those who have succeeded him robbed of the results of his pioneer faith. However that may be, no doubt the exchequer court will pay due regard to all the considerations which should be taken into account. It is true that a substantial portion of the property has passed out of the hands of the original owner, Mr. Beech, and the Beech estate, and the ownership of lots is scattered in the subdivision. As to what will be done in the future, I know my hon. friend would like to see the government embark on an experiment of a town in which there was no private ownership.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: Hear, hear.


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot say as yet if
it will be possible for us to work out anything of that sort in connection with the development at Churchill. The whole matter is under consideration. It is not the intention

of the government to dispose of any property to private individuals until the port development is thoroughly planned and we can see clearly what should be the next step in the development.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: May I inquire of the
minister what arrangement, if any, has been made with the province of Ontario with regard to the right of way which was granted through Dominion lands to Port Nelson in 1913? If my memory serves me right, there was a strip of land five miles wide running from the boundary of Ontario to Port Nelson, the idea being that the province would have the opportunity of building the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway up to Port Nelson if she so desired. Does that arrangement carry to Churchill at the present time, or has any new arrangement been made with regard to it?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am advised that the
old arrangement with regard to the right of way to Port Nelson lapsed some time ago. But however that may be, there would be no objection, indeed quite the contrary, to making such arrangements as might be necessary to enable the government of Ontario to extend their Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway to Churchill if that government should so desire at any time. My information is that they are presently heading in the direction of James bay towards Moose Factory, rather than towards the west coast of the bay.


Hugh Guthrie: I understood we made a grant of the right of way. Were there any conditions attached to it that would cause it to lapse? I remember very well the discussion that took place here by reason of this territory being given to the province of Manitoba.


Charles Avery Dunning: The condition was that
if they went on within a certain period the right existed. But in any case I can assure my hon. friend that we will have the whole matter looked into, and if it is necessary to extend any rights in that regard arrangements can easily be made. I am personally very doubtful of the desirability of giving one province a corridor five miles wide through another province. It would in my judgment be quite sufficient for the purpose of the province owning the railway if it were permitted to acquire a sufficient amount of land within the adjoining province to enable it to build its railway to the point it desired to reach. That has been done with respect to the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway entering the

Supply-Hudson Bay Railway
province of Quebec. It now enters that province, and although it has no corridor five miles wide it has of course the usual right to build a railway, which I am quite sure is satisfactory to the government of Ontario. In any case I assure my hon. friend that no difficulties will be placed in the way of the extension of the Ontario government railway to the port of Churchill if there is a desire that it should reach there.


Hugh Guthrie: It would be the province of Manitoba to whom we should have to go if Ontario so desired. I understand that this territory has now been made a part of the province of Manitoba. If we build a railway in Manitoba we shall have to go to that legislature.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend forgets
that the land over which the line would pass is still in the crown in the right of this Dominion.


Hugh Guthrie: What right should we have to build a line in Manitoba?


Charles Avery Dunning: By securing permission
from this government, just as the province of Ontario did in connection with the Temiskam-ing and Northern Ontario railway when it was desired to go into the province of Quebec. There was legal action in the matter, afterwards settled; and the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario railway did secure the right to enter upon crown lands in the province of Quebec-crown lands which in that case were in the right of the province.


Hugh Guthrie: What is contemplated in the way of port expenditure at Churchill? Can the minister give us an estimate of what expenditure will be necessary to render the port satisfactory?


Charles Avery Dunning: In engaging Mr. Palmer to make an investigation we asked him, in the letter of engagement, to give estimates based on a minimum port development. Perhaps I had better read the terms of the letter. This was what Mr. Palmer was asked to do, and it is the basis of the figures I am about to present:
What we have in mind as an initial test development and this is suggested more for your guidance than as a conclusive and limiting instruction-would be the provision of accommodation in either harbour for six cargo ships in port at one time, with working berths for three of the six; the estimated draught of the vessels to be not less than twenty-six feet. The minimum development projected at each port should, of course, be capable of such progressive extension as future requirements might dictate.
On that basis the harbour works at Churchill are estimated by Mr. Palmer to cost $8,450,159.


Mr. ARTHURS:: Including elevators?


Charles Avery Dunning: That includes provision for an elevator having a capacity of a million bushels. In that connection I might say, particularly for the benefit of members from the west who are interested in the handling of grain, that my idea was that to start with, in an initial test development, it would be better to plan for a fast handling low capacity elevator which could subsequently be added to by means of additional storage as the route developed. But to start with, my calculations and those of the department indicated that a million bushel storage plant, with very fast handling capacity-the fastest which is at present in use-would be the most economical and satisfactory equipment.


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: Has the minister ever made any estimate of the total cost of the Hudson Bay development, embracing: the railway, port development, the money ahead}' expended there, the cost of bridges, aids to navigation and development in the straits? In other words, what is the estimated total cost of everything in connection with that development until it reaches, say, the eastern or the southern end of the strait, that is, the entrance to the strait from the Atlantic?


Charles Avery Dunning: In that regard I can give information only as it affects the Department of Railways and Canals. The work on the straits is being conducted, as my hon. friend knows, by the Department of Marine. I have before me information relating to the Department of Railways. To date, since the inception of the Hudson Bay undertaking in 1911, there has been expended on the railway and port combined-everything-the sum of $28,333,711.72. That is up to March 31 last. As to the cost of completion, that is of course a matter of not so great certainty; but to complete the railway it is estimated that $7,543,000 will be required, and to complete the port $8,450,000. Roughly, therefore, the estimates would indicate fhat about $16,000,000 more will be required to complete the whole project, over and above what has been expended up to March 31 last.


William Anderson Black: Will it be in order for me to ask that the minister obtain from the Public Works department the cost of their expenditure?
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Charles Avery Dunning: It would be the Department of Marine and Fisheries, whose minister is not here. I can tell my hon. friend, however, as regards expenditures by any other department, that they commenced only last year. The vote in the estimates last year and, I believe, also in the supplementaries, for the Department of Marine and Fisheries in connection with work on the straits represents the total expenditure up to date under that department. I believe the house has since voted in the main estimates of the Department of Marine a further sum for the completion of the work now going on in that regard.


Edward Joseph Garland: I wish to refer to a point raised by the hon. member for Wetaskiwin (Mr. Irvine), and to support the implication of his remarks, as to the minister having made so extraordinary and, shall we say, encouraging a statement as the one he did with respect to the holding of property at Churchill. If I recollect rightly, the press reported him as having said that he did not intend to allow speculation in land at Churchill, or words to that effect. I do know that this remark was received with a great deal of pleasure and approval by a large body of citizens, economists and others, throughout the country. One great cuuse of all western Canada, as the minister himself knows, has been the appalling and unjustifiable speculation especially in city property of almost every kind. If the minister can prevent that in Churchill he will have performed a great service not only to his own department, but to the development of the port itself. If the rapid development of that port is to be forecast now and is to progress in the future, it will depend upon the absence of too heavy capitalization in land. If we can turn that money into the proper channels of development work and so on it will help to a very large degree, but when answering the hon. member for Wetaskiwin the minister stated that he was not certain that he could carry out the implied plans.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, my hon. friend did not understand me correctly.


Edward Joseph Garland: I hope the minister will make that quite clear in a moment. At any rate, he did not make any statement as to what definite plans had been made with respect to the future. All he did say was that they had expropriated the land on the east peninsula and I take it that now all the property within a certain area, the extent of which the minister has not yet said, is in the possession of the crown. I am tryrMr. W. A. Black.]
ing to encourage the minister, and I would like him to go a little further in this matter.
I think he has announced a departure from the old, orthodox method which will mean a great deal to western Canada in the development of that north country, and if only he can be strengthened in his present state of mind to the degree where he will develop plans for the development of Churchill along these lines he will be doing a great deal for western Canada. Now I hope he can give us a little further information with respect to what he had in mind in this matter.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sorry my hon. friend misunderstood me, and possibly he has misunderstood the press statement to which he has made reference. The difficulty with which we were faced when Churchill was selected was an immediate difficulty with respect to the evils of speculation. Private individuals did own property at Churchill. What I was referring to then and what I am referring to now is the trouble which arose in that regard immediately Churchill was selected. Immediately the announcement was made an official of the department was sent to the land titles office in Manitoba to file the necessary expropriations. My hon. friend will realize the importance of that if for a moment he will imagine what would have happened before now if that action had not been taken. That was the point I had in mind. As to what we should do for the future, thait I intended to leave for more mature reflection, having regard to experience elsewhere in regard to similar matters, but il did desire and the government desired to prevent the sort of thing which certainly would have happened before now if the privately owned property had not been expropriated in the first place.
As to the plans for the future, I will admit that since that time I have been studying various methods which have been applied elsewhere in the world with respect to experiments of the character indicated by my hon. friend. Frankly, there is nothing in existence that I can find whioh is quite as ideal as some of my hon. friends would desire in that regard. Particularly is the development of anything of that sort difficult when you bear in mind that the whole of the property for thousands of miles around is owned by the crown. If my hon. friend will also bear in mind the attitude of the public towards property owned by the crown, from his experience in the west he will know that it has proven virtually impossible to prevent people from squatting on crown property, where it exists in large areas such as is the case around Churchill. One of the great problems in

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evolving any plan for the development of Churchill along such lines as my hon. friend has in mind is that wherever crown property has existed in this country in large area, in practice it has been found impossible to prevent people from simply going in, sitting down and taking possession without acquiring any real rights and certainly no speculative rights, hindering development such as my hon. friend has in mind.
At this stage I only desire to say, without in any way discouraging the idea that something of an experimental nature might be carried out, that at present we are studying the possibilities of the situation; further than that I cannot go at present. It is much more difficult than our friends who possess these ideals indicate. Perhaps some of them who hold these views might give us something in the nature of a constructive scheme and tell us how it would work in relation to a municipality which is under the jurisdiction of the province, and which must be so-how it would work, for instance, having regard to matters oif property and civil rights in the province of Manitoba. All these things must be studied. It is one thing to state a great ideal;
I love to do so myself, but it is another thing to plan the steps which must be taken to make that ideal practical.


Edward Joseph Garland: I think in
respect to this matter of squatters the minister has exaggerated the difficulties more than we have exaggerated the benefits of this scheme. Really the squatters do not present a very serious problem in the handling of that territory, not only the municipality of Churchill itself but the surrounding country. If any difficulties did arise with respect to them, however, even if such were possible, a modification of the regulations respecting squatters' rights would be very readily acquired. In any case, the squatter does not possess title to the land, nor can he acquire title except through the crown.


Charles Avery Dunning: I mentioned that.


Edward Joseph Garland: So even if the whole territory were surrounded by squatters the title is in the crown, and the crown can determine upon what terms the land may be further used by these persons. At the present time I am not going to enter into a discussion of a practical method by which this scheme can ibe applied; it is too late in the session for that, but I am going to meet the minister in this way: I am going to send him in writing a plan which has been worked out before and which may be applicable to the Churchill situation. I hope he will take it into
consideration; I feel sure he will, because on the whole I think he is rather inclined towards a little experiment in this matter, and if the suggestion is at all practical I think he will accept it.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is right.


Edward Joseph Garland: I think the minister is in the proper mood with respect to that suggestion, so I will be pleased to accept his offer and will send him a written statement which may be of use.


Charles Avery Dunning: I would be pleased if my hon friend or any other member on either side of the house who has any ideas with regard to that form of development would write me with respect to it. Perhaps this is a fitting opportunity for me to say further, here in this house where it will get major publicity, to individuals who desire to go to Churchill, that we cannot accept them for the next couple of years. I am being pestered by men of all professions, all -trades and all occupations to be allowed to go to Churchill. At present Churchill is purely a development proposition; the department must arrange to feed everyone who goes there; we must provide doctors and hospitals and so on, and we simply cannot undertake to let private individuals, no matter in what business they may be engaged, go there until matters are further advanced than they are at present.


Thomas Cantley: Does the minister say he will not permit citizens of Canada to go to Churchill? How can he stop them if they want to go?


Mr. ADSHEAD:: May I ask a question?
Was not a very good experiment carried on at the town of Banff, where the whole town is owned by the government and there are no private owners of property?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am interested in the
example of Banff and it is being studied, but I am afraid it will not apply quite as well as we might desire. My hon. friend from- Pictou took me up wrongly; I did not say we would not permit people to go there; I said that our facilities for taking them there were limited. If my hon. friend desires to go and will walk in, or go in by ship, we cannot prevent him, but even to him I would submit that it is unfair -to ask us to feed and look after him once he gets there.


Thomas Cantley: I am not asking that at all. I am simply taking objection to the statement of the minister that he would not permit people to go to Churchill. I do not like that word.
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John Wesley Edwards: How much land at Churchill does the government claim to own, and under what authority?


Charles Avery Dunning: It should be understood that the government owns all the land there.


John Wesley Edwards: Under what authority?


Charles Avery Dunning: I guess it was purchased when the Hudson bay territory was purchased.


John Wesley Edwards: From whom? The Hudson's Bay Company never owned any land there.


Charles Avery Dunning: We will not enter into
a discussion of that, but the fact is that the crown does own all the land on the east peninsula.


John Wesley Edwards: I take exception to that. I say they do not own it and never have owned it, and I ask the minister on what authority he makes that claim?


Charles Avery Dunning: I took my legal advice
from the Department of Justice. When the Department of Justice advised that the crown owned all that land, except the small portion which had been previously alienated to private interests, expropriation proceedings were taken under the Railway Act.


John Wesley Edwards: I was simply trying to get an expression of opinion from the minister of the authority under which the Dominion of Canada claims ownership to any of that land. I would suggest that the minister spend a little of his spare time looking that up.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have been more or
less intimately associated with the problem for a number of years, and I do not think this is the place to discuss it. At the present time the Dominion does claim the right of administration over the lands in question, considering them crown lands.


Mr. IRVINE:: Could the minister give
us the acreage which has been expropriated by the government?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am trying to convey
to the committee the fact that the government owns the whole thing for thousands of miles around there.


William Irvine: There were some private
squatters, or something of that kind.


Charles Avery Dunning: They have been entirely eliminated; the whole thing is expropriated. In view of the fact that it is an irregular peninsula, it is very difficult to give the

exact area, but the expropriation proceedings dealt with the area including the whole of the east peninsula at Fort Churchill. This peninsula is four miles from the point to the base, and the base is constantly widening, and at present is close to three miles across. I would point out to my hon. friend that all the land is vested in the crown, subject, of course, to what my hon. friend from Frontenac is now saying.


Mr. GARDINER:: What was the acreage
which was expropriated from private interests?


Charles Avery Dunning: There was the original
Beech homestead of 160 acres, and, due to some exchanges which took place years ago, a few additional blocks in the surveyed portion of what was then the townsite of Fort Churchill. I am sorry to say that I cannot give the exact area, but I do not think it would amount to two quarter-sections; the original homestead of 160 acres, and some small additions.


Mr. BANCROFT:: Could the minister give us some information as to the result of the investigation into the ice conditions in the strait? I know it does not come under his department, but he will probably be familiar with that.


Charles Avery Dunning: The Department of
Marine and Fisheries, aided by an interdepartmental committee, conducted work in the the strait, aerial and otherwise. The report of the work has already been published, and I think is in the hands [DOT] of every member, and if not it can be secured at the distribution office as it is printed. It is undesirable to go into great detail, particularly on a matter not under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Railways, but it is sufficient to say that the result of last year's investigation indicated that commercial navigation through the strait was possible up to the first day of December.


Mr. McGIBBON:: Will the minister be
good enough to tell us the ice conditions as of the 5th of June at Port Nelson and Fort Churchill?


Charles Avery Dunning: There is ice at both
places.


Peter McGibbon: About six or eight feet thick?


Charles Avery Dunning: I could not say as to that.


Mr. PETTIT:: 
Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend ,has
stated very succinctly what is the basis of our whole undertaking, and I am in position to say that if last year's investigation has revealed the average condition, then the facilities provided for Fort Churchill will soon prove to be inadequate. Please remember that qualification. No man can say definitely whether one year's condition will prevail, but my hon. friends have only to visualize wlhat is possible with navigation to the 1st of December to see what will be the result.


John Wesley Edwards: Could the
minister give some brief details of the expenditures made in the strait? I understand there was an ice-breaker paid for, and so on.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am a little handicapped because the work is under the Department of Marine and Fisheries. The committee will remember that the government's proposal regarding a reconnaissance in the strait was placed before the house and approved. Briefly, the work done was to combine the navigation by the old ice-breaker Stanley with aeroplane reconnaissance from three bases, one at the eastern entrance to the strait at Port Burwell, one at Wakeham oay about half way along the strait on the south shore, and one at Nottingham island at the western entrance to the strait. Aeroplane reconnaissance was made from each of these stations. As it was necessary to erect all the buildings required in the same year this work was started, it was not as successful as we would have desired. But as a result of that work a report has been tabled and is available to every member. It covers only one year, and I want to emphasize that. Many people who have been heretofore opposed to the development take the ground that it has been a very exceptional year. We cannot tell whether it was an exceptional year, but, in any event, my colleague the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Cardin) is arranging for a continuance of the reconnaissance work, not so much by the aeroplane method, although the information
gathered in that manner has proved very interesting, but by the method recommended by many members on both sides of the house who have had experience in such matters. This method includes the gradual development of aids to navigation, such as direction finders, and so forth, and the use of the strait by the ships in the service of the Department of Railways and Canals continuously taking in materials, which will provide us with a mine of information.


Mr. COOTE:: I would like to ask the minister when it is expected this work will be completed so that the road will be ready for operation?


Charles Avery Dunning: The contract for the construction of the line calls for completion by December, 1929. Last year I would have said that it might be ready in 1930, but following the loss of the dredge Kennequhair which involved the building and sending in of dredges this year, it is obvious that there will not be a very substantial start made upon the dredging during the year 1928. I would prefer at this stage not to be positive regarding the date of completion. I can only say that all the force the department can economically bring to bear upon the work will be brought to bear until it is completed and in operation.


Leland Payson Bancroft: Can the dredge at
Port Nelson be used for this purpose?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is the sand-sucking dredge. It is lying on top of the island at Nelson and not only would it not be useful for this work but we do not know yet how we are going to get it down. That is the fact of the matter. It can, of course, be got down; nothing is beyond engineering science; but we think we have more important work to do at present than putting a large force of expert engineers and workmen on the problem of getting it down, when as a matter of fact we do not quite know what to do with it when we get it down.


Thomas Cantley: What class of dredges
does the minister propose to take out this summer and when?


Charles Avery Dunning: Two dipper dredges.


Thomas Cantley: Are they on the way?


Charles Avery Dunning: No. They are being
built.


Thomas Cantley: Where?


Charles Avery Dunning: Montreal.


Mr. FANSHER (Last Mountain):: The minister made reference to the development that will take place at Fort Churchill to
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provide facilities for three ships at berth and three ships at anchor. What is the possible development of the port? How many ship berths and how much anchorage can be provided?


Charles Avery Dunning: I can only quote Mr
Palmer in that regard. I cannot offhand find the spot in his report, but I can tell my hon. friend that the development is practically unlimited. We can put in Churchill harbour any size of harbour works that the necessities may demand. In fact, many years ago plans were prepared for Fort Churchill and Port Nelson and there remain in the Department of Railway and Canals actual designs providing for more dock space at Churchill harbour than now exists in New York. On the old, original plans of twenty years ago there are seventeen and a half miles of docks. I must admit, however, that a good many of the things done then were not very accurate.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I presume there is no
necessity for further proof that Churchill should fill the bill. Were any observations and records made of the ice conditions at the port last fall and this spring? The only disappointing feature I find in Mr. Palmer's report is that he said he was not able to speak with authority with respect to ice conditions in the harbour, the probable date of the freeze-up and the opening again in the spring.


Charles Avery Dunning: Mr. Palmer was a very
thorough man and when he was asked to offer an opinion on something which could not be supported by definite scientific data, his answer was always the same. "Engineering is an exact science", he said. There is no exact data in existence with regard to the point which my hon. friend mentions and for that reason Mr. Palmer refused, as he said, to give an opinion. The department is arranging, in fact it has had under way all winter a careful observation at both points and in addition we are intending to secure aeroplanes for an aeroplane observation of the ice conditions off both ports during the present summer and particularly during the period in the fall when both ports would necessarily be most interesting from that point of view. We are finding aeroplane transportation a very useful adjunct to our work in the north country and indeed mining people and others are using aeroplanes up there now. Having them, we intend to conduct a very thorough, careful and continuous comparison in regard to ice conditions at both ports. We have learned now what appears to be a regular condition and that is that the two ports are not at all comparable as to ice conditions. When the ice goes out at Churchill, it is gone. When the ice goes

out at the port of Nelson, it may not be, and very frequently is not clear of the mouth of the Nelson river, twenty odd miles away. It appears to be characteristic that the ice coming down from the north with the currents masks the entrance to the Nelson river long after the port of Nelson itself is free from ice. The conditions are not strictly comparable. To simplify the explanation I might say to my hon. friend that it is very frequently possible to get by ship from Nelson twenty miles down stream while Churchill is frozen up, but it would be impossible to get from Nelson out to sea. Have I made that clear? That is one thing we have learned so far which appears to be very interesting and we are continuing the observations.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canals-Trent canal construction and betterments, $13,500.
Mr. SPENCER:: When will this work be
finished?


Charles Avery Dunning: We are always working
on construction. Whenever a dam is built, that is construction.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welland ship canal construction, $13,750,000.
Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: Is the minister's
opinion as to the time of opening of this canal the same as it was last year?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have had no reason to change my view as to the time of opening.


Hugh Guthrie: What was the time, may I ask?


Charles Avery Dunning: 1930.


George Gibson Coote: What has the canal cost up to date and what is it estimated it will cost to finish it?


Charles Avery Dunning: To the end of the last fiscal year. $90,000,000. It will cost between $115,000,000 and $120,000,000 in all.


Thomas Cantley: Are these unit prices
throughout all the tenders?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Thomas Cantley: Did the tenderers name
the unit prices?


Charles Avery Dunning: In their tenders, yes.


Thomas Cantley: Does that include the
supply of steel sheet piling and items of that kind?


Charles Avery Dunning: All supplies by the contractors are at unit prices.

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Thomas Cantley: In that way how does it come about that one contractor receives five cents and another six cents for exactly the same material on the same class of work?


Charles Avery Dunning: I can only say in that regard that these tenders have been let progressively from year to year and in every case the lowest tenderer gets the job. There may be differences in the prices due to work that was let in one year as compared with work let in another. This work has been going on for many years and while some contracts were let last year, some I presume were let ten years ago.


Thomas Cantley: I can understand that, but what I am inquiring about is this. For instance I find under the contract with Johnson P. Porter, sections 1 and 2. the sheet piling is put down at six cents. I find in another contract by different people the price for the same item is five cents, making a difference of about $64,000 in the case of that one item. I find another item in regard to steel where the unit prices are four and five cents and where there is a difference of $50,000. I am at a loss to understand how on the same job in returns made for the same year there should be so large a discrepancy.


Charles Avery Dunning: The explanation of that is this: When the tenders were originally called for on each of these sections, contractors were asked to bid on the basis of unit prices for every operation involved. While the unit price might be lower the price in the aggregate might be higher. The man who bid a cent less, let us say, for sheet piling might be two cents more than another tenderer on material involving a far larger expenditure, and in letting the contract-most of them, of course, were made before my time, but some have been let since, and I have had the experience-I have always asked the accountants to extend the totals of the whole tender on unit prices aggregating everything 'n the tender.


Thomas Cantley: On estimated quantities, of course?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes, and then awarding the contract to the lowest tenderer in the aggregate, based on unit prices. We have had the experience many times of one tenderer bidding a very low price on some very small item, but in the aggregate submitting a high tender as compared with the other tenderers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, maintenance and operation, $287,100.
Hugh Guthrie: I would ask my hon. friend to let this stand until this afternoon.


Charles Avery Dunning: Until this afternoon?


Hugh Guthrie: Yes, just until this afternoon.
Item stands.
Governor General's cars, $2,500.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: I think we should have some explanation in connection with this item and the other expenditures in this connection. According to a return supplied to me by the department, we have had in the last ten years for governor general's cars an expenditure of $101,257.72. In 1924 alone we had an expenditure of $42,659.73. In addition to that, there has been very heavy cost connected with the carrying of these cars over the various lines, concerning which the department is not able to give information, stating in reply to my question, that:
No separate record is kept of such movement by the railway management, and to take out this information would necessitate a special and particular search of all train service records of every division of the entire Canadian National system over a period of five years. This would take so much time, and cost so much money, that the management does not consider it in the public interest to undertake the work.
So we are quite in the dark with regard to what it costs to carry special cars either of the Governor General or of the government or of visitors. Further, I wish to call attention to, and to ask an explanation from the minister, of the large expenditures which have been incurred by the Canadian National in connection with the building of special cars for the Governor General. I notice in a western Labour paper an item credited to the Montreal Gazette which I think should be in the possession of the house. It is entitled, "Two Canadian National Cars to be used for Their Excellencies' Visit to Washington," and reads:
In deep royal purple glistening and new, the two state carriages built by the Canadian National Railways for Their Excellencies, the Governor General and Viscountess Willingdon, stand ready for the first state visit of Canada's representative of the crown to the capital of the neighboring republic. But it is no ordinary lavish comfort that is embodied in these remarkable achievements in the art of travelling, for the interior decorator is none other than Her Excellency herself, and her discriminating taste has given a personal touch to the whole equipage which is a hundred times more attractive than any unbridled sumptuousness.
In some ways the carriages have the air of state coaches, but in some ways they seem like a doll's house. Her Excellency has conceived the
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Railways and Canals

whole idea on lines of the bijou apartment, so that nothing has the appearance of being overdone for its size. The plain purple exterior, with its royal coat of arms, has an imposing dignity. In the inside, within the limited space of the car's proportions, is a diminutive moving home, complete in every detail from the aquatints and watercolours, and house telephone of the living rooms to the varieties of jelly moulds in the kitchen.
Their Excellencies' private car is entered by an oak-panelled hall with a blue carpet and short blue silk curtains. Ample cupboard space hints a feminine'influence in the designing. In addition to individual closets in each room, a large wardrobe with plenty of hooks and hangers comes first. There are two bedrooms beside Their Excellencies' suite in this car. One room with cream-colored walls is done in printed linens of a kind of Dutch blue with bright tulips, and the colour scheme has not even forgotten that peculiar hook with which trainmen adjust windows at the top of the carriages. It, too, has its handle of blue and tulips. All the ladies' dressing tables have triple mirrors, and there is an ingenious array of drawers and closets. Another bedroom of similar design is in rose. Small chairs and side tables complete each room.
Their Excellencies' own rooms are in soft lavender, one in cream and lavender and one in grey and lavender, with deep lavender carpets. Both bathrooms are tiled in lavender, and even the shower curtain carries out the colour in rubber silk. The curtains are lavender silk.
The private sitting room is as distinctive as it is simple. Provincial designs are carried out in the furniture, which, with the panelling, is curly beech, and parchment-shaded lamps, a desk, a nest of tables and comfortable chairs are cosily arranged. Printed linen holds sway in coverings, this time in a floral design with a soft orange predominating. Even a barometer is ready to be tapped hopefully in the morning.
The second car includes the lounge and the dining room, and these are gaily painted in apple green, with orange-printed linen with bright flowers. Not the least of the ingenious planning of the cars is in the kitchen and serving pantry. Refrigerators, toasters, broilers, bakers and whatnots of the modern kitchen are compactly stowed away in the white and nickle ramifications of two diminutive rooms.
The bedrooms of the rest of the staff are in this car.
It is perhaps rather significant that in a parallel column of the same newspaper is a summary of some of the existing conditions among the poor people of the city in which this paper is published. We have the deadly parallel in two columns. I say that that is the reaction of the common people of this country to these reports as published in our press concerning the sumptuous cars which are being built for Their Excellencies.
I would like to ask the minister, first of all, whether it is with the consent of the department that these cars are being built. I would like to ask why it is that these huge expenditures, which must involve-I do not
[Mr. Woodsworth.l
know, but rumour says two or three hundred thousand dollars-are not included in the proper place in these estimates, where, according to the item before us apparently all that is being expended; for Governor General's cars is $2,500. Why have these large items involved in the building of these new cars not been included? I ask, further, whether we consider that our Canadian National Railways, with the capitalization it has been carrying for a great many years, must carry in addition extravagances of this kind. The people of Canada are solidly behind the Canadian National Railways, but the people of Canada have a right to see that only legitimate expenditures are included in the railway estimates, and if expenditures are to be made along these extravagant lines in providing for certain officials the people of this country through parliament ought to decide upon these expenditures; they should not be decided by the heads of the Canadian National Railways.


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot enter into any discussion as to the propriety of the people of Canada providing, as they have done for the past thirty years, travelling equipment for whoever may for the time being occupy the position of governor general. The fact is that such accommodation has always been provided, and I think the country is convinced of the necessity of making provision for it in order that the occupants of the position may properly discharge their obligations to the people by travelling to the extent that they do. I am reminded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) that if we had a republic we should probably provide similar accommodation for the president, as there is no government in the world which does not make such provision for the head of the state.
The farmer cars used for the purpose were built by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company more than thirty years ago, at the time when His Majesty as Duke of York visited Canada. They were subsequently purchased by the government, I do not know in what year.


Thomas Cantley: Built in 1901.


Charles Avery Dunning: A number of years ago at any event. To say they have become obsolete, and in fact unsafe, is not going beyond the mark. During the past few years the executives of the Canadian Pacific Railway and the Canadian National Railways, and before that time indeed the executives of the railways as they formerly existed, have

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directed the attention of the government to the condition of these cars and the risk which was involved not only to the distinguished persons using them, but to the train crews and others who were engaged in their movement from place to place. The old cars had a certain value, they could be advantageously rebuilt for a different type of service. After reviewing the problem, Sir Henry Thornton thought it wise and most economical, having regard to the necessities of the case, to take the shell of an ordinary steel pullman, such as is being constructed for the Canadian National Railways, and fit it u,p for the use of the Governor General, instead of installing the ordinary pullman or observation car equipment, and to take back into the Canadian National service the two old cars, rebuilding them for the class of service to which they would be allotted.


Thomas Cantley: Send them down to Nova Scotia, as you do all your old rolling stock.


Charles Avery Dunning: Before they are sent
there, I can assure my hon. friend that they will be thoroughly reconditioned. My hon. friend referred to the large amount which has been spent on the governor general's cars during the past ten years. That is true, and it constitutes one of the main reasons why the old cars should be iput into other service, and so save further maintenance at the rate which has been expended on these cars during the last ten years-expenditure abnormally large, but rendered necessary by reason of the obsolete condition of the cars themselves. The lower maintenance cost of the new equipment is illustrated in the item now before the house of $2,500, which is the estimated maintenance cost for this year. As I say, the whole matter has been handled by the Canadian National Railways, and I think in the most economical manner possible having regard to the service required.
My hon. friend read a newspaper article which emphasized the lavishness of this, that and the other thing. I do not propose to enter into the subject at all. When we were getting new cars I am sure the people of Canada would want those cars to be properly built and properly fitted out. Personally I have not seen the new cars, but I am quite sure the president of the Canadian National Railways would see to it that the job was properly done when he was once determined .hat it should be done.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister has
not told me why this item has been taken out of the regular schedule for these expenditures.


Charles Avery Dunning: It never was there.


James Shaver Woodsworth: We had $42,000 in
connection with governor general's cars several years ago, and in the past ten years we have had $100,000 included in these estimates for governor general's cars. Why should not the new expenditure appear there?


Charles Avery Dunning: It was simply a question of the proper way of doing it.


James Shaver Woodsworth: In the past these
items for governor general's cars have been included in the estimates.


Charles Avery Dunning: For maintenance?


James Shaver Woodsworth: For construction
and alterations.


Charles Avery Dunning: Will my hon. friend
point out where the construction of governor general's cars ever did appear in the estimates?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I have suggested
several years ago in that one item of $42,000.


Charles Avery Dunning: There is no special reason for doing it in this way, except that it is the most convenient and most natural way to do it. Originally the government owned only the Intercolonial railway, which did not come near Ottawa and had no facilities here for looking after the cars. During that period the government owned the cars. At the present time the Canadian National own the cars and look after their replacement in exactly the same manner as they would look after the replacement of any other cars belonging to the system. There is nothing sinister in this.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am not suggesting there is anything sinister, but I say this is not ordinarily a part of the Canadian National Railways expenditure. Since it is a distinct expenditure on the part of the government, it ought to be included in the government estimates in the regular way. Are all the furnishings in these cars also included in the Canadian National Railways expenditure?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are part of the
cost.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Will the minister
give us a statement with regard to the cost of these new cars?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes; I will also give
information with respect to the nearest comparable ordinary car. Car No. 1 cost $87,247.79; car No. 2, $88,976.98. The nearest comparable car is a seven-compartment buffet observation car, which in quantities can be purchased at $58,000.
Supply-Railways and Canals


Herbert Bealey Adshead: I think this is the point, Mr. Chairman. This being a state affair, it should not be burdened on the Canadian National Railways; it is not a Canadian National disbursement.


Henry Elvins Spencer: What does the small sum of $2,500 represent?


Charles Avery Dunning: Maintenance purely.


Mr. GEARY:: Can the minister compare
this with another private car? Recently I was in a car which was not very sumptuously furnished, and I was told it cost $100,000. By comparison the cost of these cars does not look excessive.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend will
appreciate how impossible it is to give comparisons with other private or business cars, for the reason that such cars vary in price anywhere up the scale as high as $200,000.


George Reginald Geary: These are not the most
expensive cars.


Charles Avery Dunning: Not by any means.
There are cars much more expensive on the road to this country, particularly the cars from the United States. Any railwayman will tell you that.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Will the minister answer this question? As this is a state affair, why should not the expenditure be shouldered by the state? Why should the Canadian National Railways be burdened with it, and the amount hidden so that no one can tell what it really is?


Charles Avery Dunning: Answering my hon. friend from South Toronto (Mr. Geary), the nearest comparison I have under my hand is for the New York Central. Last year that railroad furnished to its president and, I think, four vice-presidents, cars for their use at a cost of $100,000 each. I presume they would not be equipped in an unduly sumptuous manner for those officers. With reference to my hon. friend from East Calgary (Mr. Adshead) it is just a matter of arrangement. Now that we have a state railway, I believe all our railway equipment should be owned by the railway. The railway can better look after it. If there is a maintenance account then let the government meet it with respect to any cars in the service. But as a matter of good business I think railway equipment owned by the government had better be owned by that agency of the government which has to do with railways, namely, the Canadian National Railways.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Miscellaneous service, including salaries and expenses of experts employed temporarily, $38, 000.
Thomas Cantley: Does this include the
cost of the engineer you had ait Hudson bay?


Charles Avery Dunning: No, he is paid.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
John Frederick Johnston: Before I leave the
chair, I have been asked to announce that the agriculture committee will meet at four o'clock this afternoon in the railway committee room.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.
Board of Railway Commissioners for Canada, maintenance and operation, $287,100.


Hugh Guthrie: The leader of the opposition will be in his place in a moment and I think perhaps he may have a word to say on this item. In the meantime, what is the explanation of the increase of $15,060 in this item?


Charles Avery Dunning: That sum includes an increase of $5,060 in salaries and $10,000 for additional help necessary to do the work requisite under the Maritime Freight Rates Act.


Hugh Guthrie: I suppose that is for clerical assistance?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Welland ship canal

to provide for payment to P. Lyall and Sons Construction Company, Limited, on account of washing rock from section 4-not anticipated at time tenders were called for, $56,658.
Mr, GUTHRIE: Will the minister explain what this vote is? It is unusual, and I do not understand it.
Charles Avery Dunning: This is the third time an item of this kind has appeared in the estimates with reference to the Welland canal. Following a great deal of difficulty from an engineering point of view on the question of washing rock, some three years ago it was finally decided that this work should be done, a schedule of payment with respect to it was arranged and agreed upon and of course in each of the succeeding years it had to be paid as an extra amount. I am informed that this is the last year during which this rock washing will be necessary; this will

Supply-Railways-Railway Commission
complete the work. This represents a grand total of 343.800 cubic yards, or 30,700 cubic yards less than the original estimate, and the total cost is $21,490 less than the original estimate.


John Wesley Edwards: May I ask the minister if the contract with the P. Lyall Company has been completed?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


John Wesley Edwards: What arrangement was made with that company by which they were allowed to sell part of their plant?


Charles Avery Dunning: Back in 1919, just after the war, it was decided to proceed on the Welland canal by contract instead of having the government do the work, and in letting the various contracts each contractor had to take over part of the equipment then belonging to the government as part of his contract obligation. They are all paying for the equipment then purchased out of the amounts due on progress estimates from time to time, and the Lyall firm is in the same position.


Mr. MANION:: When is it expected the Welland canal will be completed, and what is the total estimated cost?


Charles Avery Dunning: I answered that this morning. It is expected to be completed by 1930 and will cost something between $115,000,000 and $120,000,000.


John Wesley Edwards: In just what position is the Lyall company in respect of its debt to the government?


Charles Avery Dunning: Originally on the Lyall contracts $2,338,000 worth of machinery was purchased from the government, and there is a balance outstanding of $527,000 on that account.


John Wesley Edwards: How much machinery have they sold to others?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are not allowed to sell any machinery until it is paid for. I may tell my friend that the account is being well protected by the engineers in charge.


Thomas Cantley: I would like a little information with regard to this amount for washing rock. I think it was generally understood that the rock to be used in the concrete was to be excavated from the cuttings of the.canal. Who first brought up the question of this rook being washed before it was used in the concrete?


Charles Avery Dunning: As I indicated before my hon. friend came in, this is the third occasion on which it has been necessary to introduce an item for this purpose. The basis was settled some three years ago, but probably my hon. friend does not recall the previous discussions. The original negotiations took place in 1925. It was part of the contract that this contractor should deliver to another contractor rock which was being excavated from his part of the canal. When the actual excavation of the rock was going on it was found that there was too much of an intermixture of clay; the rock was full of fissures of clay. Someone had to wash the rock and there was no provision in the contract for it; the contractor was merely obligated to deliver the rock, so these arrangements had to be made.


Thomas Cantley: In other words this was (done to meet a condition which was not anticipated when the contract was let?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is so.


Thomas Cantley: What is the rate per cubic yard for washing this rock?


Charles Avery Dunning: The rate is seventy cents per cubic yard; that is the actual cost, checked by our own officials.


Thomas Cantley: How do you arrive at the rate of seventy cents as the actual cost?


Charles Avery Dunning: We check the actual
operation.


Thomas Cantley: How is it washed?


Charles Avery Dunning: With big jets of water under pressure.


Thomas Cantley: I should think seven cents would be more nearly correct than seventy cents for washing rock with jets of water. I do not care what the pressure is; the higher the pressure the more effective it would be. It seems to me that seventy cents is an outrageous price. What is the cost for excavating?


Charles Avery Dunning: I can only say to my hon. friend that our officers and auditors check the actual cost of this operation.


Thomas Cantley: I must take objection to that price, because never, by any possibility, could this operation cost as much as seventy cents per cubic yard.


John Wesley Edwards: What does it cost per cubic yard to excavate?


Charles Avery Dunning: One class of material
costs $1.56, another class 60 cents, and another class $30 per yard. I am informed by
3742	COMMONS
Supply-Railways-Railway Commission
the officers of the department that these rates are affected by the distance and conditions regarding the disposal of the material after it is excavated, and they are hardly a criterion of the cost.


Thomas Cantley: I cannot understand that material which can be excavated for 60 cents per yard should cost 70 cents per yard to wash.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is earth that costs 60 cents.


Thomas Cantley: I asked for the cost on rock.


Charles Avery Dunning: That cost is $1.56.


Thomas Cantley: Seventy cents is about
one-half, and there would appear to be something wrong there.


Charles Avery Dunning: I will be glad to make inquiries. My officers inform me that an actual check has been kept ever since these operations started in 1926.


Thomas Cantley: You had better put in a new set of officers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compassionate allowance to the widow of the late Charles Hilden -who was accidently drowned at Halifax, September 8, 1927, $3,000.
Mr. BENNETT:: There seem to be half a dozen different values placed on human lives which have been lost. In this case the compassionate allowance is put at $3,000, and in another place in the estimates there will be one appearing at $500. What is the determining factor?


Charles Avery Dunning: In the case of the Department of Railways and Canals the determining factor is the workmen's compensation law in the province in which the accident occurs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canadian government railways-to provide an additional car ferry between the mainland and Prince Edward Island, $1,000,000.
Thomas Cantley: I wish to thank the minister for coming down off his perch and providing this vessel. I have now an answer to the question I asked in the committee on railways and shipping.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To supplement pension allowances payable under the provisions of the Intercolonial and Prince Edward Island Railway Employees' Provident Fund Act so as to make the minimum payment, during the period from January 1, 1928, to March 31, 1929, the sum of $30 per month instead of $20 as fixed by the said act, $50,000.
Mr. POULIOT:: Will the employees get more this year than they did last year?


Charles Avery Dunning: This vote has been necessary for a number of years in order to supplement the amounts paid in by the employees to the provident fund of the old Intercolonial railway. Due to a change in conditions throughout the years, this fund has run behind and it has been necessary for parliament to supplement it in order to enable the provisions of the provident fund to be carried out.


Jean-François Pouliot: Is it the intention of the government to increase this amount next year?


Charles Avery Dunning: The real reason for this deficit in the fund was that five or six years ago the minimum compensation was raised from $20 to $30, due to changed conditions, and this amount has been required.


Jean-François Pouliot: I wonder if the Department of Railways and Canals or the minister have anything to do with the pensions of the Canadian National Railways' employees under the Provident Fund Act. There are some sad cases of employees who have been working for the railway for a number of years, such as that of Mr. Pierre Bosse of Riviere du Loup. Mr. Bosse has been working for the railroad for several years, and is entitled to a pension. He has paid his dues every year but the doctors refuse to give him a certificate that he is ill. I believe their reasons are that he has no wound in the face, and has the use of both eyes, and that he can hear; they believe he is all right. There are some doctors at the head office of the Atlantic region at Moncton who, I imagine, have not even yet received their diplomas; because they do not know how to examine sick people, and when employees go there the doctors stay on their throne and allow them to be looked after by their assistants who are just freshmen and know nothing about the diseases of the human body. I do not know if they could qualify even as veterinary surgeons. People who have given their lives to the Canadian National Railways, and who have paid annually to get a pension when they are sick or too old, have had trouble in getting what they are entitled to. I have personal knowledge of a man who was employed on the section at Trois-Pistoles who went down to Moncton to be examined. The doctor told him that he was perfectly well, but when he went to another doctor and was X-rayed it was found that he suffered from a very serious disease. When he brought back the plates to Moncton the Canadian National specialists had to acknowledge their mistake. I wish to bring the case of Mr. Pierre Bosse to the attention of the minister

Supply-Railways-Railway Commission
and of the house, because when the department ask for a vote of $50,000 to help the employees they should right any injustice that has been done. Mr. Bosse has worked for the railway almost twenty years, being laid off on account of staff reduction. He claimed his right of seniority, but that was not given to him. He wanted to work in the same capacity as he had worked before, but while he is a carpenter, they told him that he should fire a boiler. He was fifty-nine or sixty years old then and this was a very hard job for him. He could not do it because he was ill. When he reported his case again, they told him that it was a fake; that he was not serious. I think the way in which old employees are treated by the officials of the company in the Canadian National medical branch at Moncton is a shame. The matter should be brought to the attention of the house and I hope the minister, although there is a wall between him and the Canadian National railway management, will be able to make an opening through the wall large enough to enable him to tell them to be fair to their employees and to give them what is due to them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pensions-J. L. Weller, $3,500.
John Wesley Edwards: What are
these for?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is just one item. I
have under my hand all the information regarding every one of these votes. If it is not given, it is simply because no one appears to desire it. In most cases the explanation has been given in previous years and I do not like to inflict the explanations on the committee unless they are asked. Mr. Weller was employed by the government for forty-two years as an engineer. He was never in the position of being a permanent civil servant. He entered the service of the department in 1883 as an engineer on canal construction and operation. In 1900 he was appointed superintending engineer of the Welland canal, which office he held until 1912 when he was appointed engineer in charge of survey and design of construction of the then proposed new Welland ship canal. He remained in charge of the work until 1917 when it was closed down owing to the war, and Mr. Weller's services were dispensed with. From January, 1919, to March 31, 1927, the services of Mr. Weller were retained in the capacity of consulting engineer in connection with the construction of the Welland ship canal, and his salary was fixed at $3,600 per annum, it being felt that that rate was adequate in view of the fact that his whole time was not being
occupied during that period. Mr. Weller is now well on in the seventies and in view of his record of service, which, had he been in the permanent class of civil servants, would have undoubtedly entitled him to superannuation, a year ago the house voted this pension for him. It is on the basis of the Calder Act.


John Wesley Edwards: This is
Bimply putting Mr. Weller in the same class as retired judges.


Charles Avery Dunning: No, putting him in the
position that he would have been in as a permanent civil servant retiring under what are known as the provisions of the Calder Act.


John Wesley Edwards: He did not pay anything into the superannuation fund?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


John Wesley Edwards: In that sense he is receiving superannuation the same as retired judges, who never pay anything into the superannuation fund.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous-to provide for the payment of salaries and expenses in connection with the St. Lawrence ship canal surveys and investigations, including D. W. McLachlan at $1,500, and G. W. Yates at $1,200, as secretary, $50,000.
Edward Joseph Garland: Have the
surveys now been completed or is there any further work to be done in regard to the matter referred to in this appropriation?


Charles Avery Dunning: The report of the joint engineering board, which I have no doubt my hon. friend has read, reveals important differences of view between the Canadian engineers and United States engineers regarding the development of the international section. It is quite evident that some further work will require to be done in that connection and in addition, with a project of such magnitude, continuous observations of various kinds and other work have to be done. It is not considered wise to let the whole work drop at this juncture.


Edward Joseph Garland: Are the
United States government carrying on similar surveys, or are they carrying on joint surveys with the Canadian engineers?


Charles Avery Dunning: The United States government are keeping alive and active their half of the joint engineering board.


Edward Joseph Garland: There is
close co-operation between the two?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Trade and Commerce
[Stage Direction]
Trade and Commerce-Commercial intelligence service, including miscellaneous expenditure in connection with the development and extension of Canada's trade, $500,000.
George Gibson Coote: Will the minister kindly
make a statement to the committee regarding this vote?	,


Hon. JAMES MALCOLM (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: The increase in this appropriation is due mainly to a revision of salaries, slight increases in living allowances for trade commssioners and an increase to provide for an increase in the number of commissioners on account of the growth in the service. The appropriation includes salaries, travelling expenses, contingencies and other expenditures; salaries of trade commissioners, assistant trade commissioners and commercial agents; salaries of clerks in the trade commissioners' offices; travelling expenses of the Ottawa staff; salaries of temporary clerks at Ottawa, and also miscellaneous expenses in connection with the department.


George Gibson Coote: How many agents are there now?


James Malcolm: There are twenty-four
trade commissioners, five in grade three, three in grade two and sixteen in grade one. There are four vacancies to be filled, which are being filled at the moment.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics, $150,000.
Robert James Manion: Why the reduction? It
is so rare that we would like an explanation.


James Malcolm: The Bureau of Statistics, as my hon. friend will recollect, always has a larger staff when the quinquennial census is on and in a near census period. The bureau happens to be decreasing its staff now. The quinquennial census in Saskatchewan is over and I think there will be a smaller staff for the next year or two until the next census.


Robert James Manion: My reason for asking was because the Bureau of Statistics is one of the departments of the government for which I have a great deal of respect. You can get quick and reliable information in a very short time. I like to say a good word once in a while for some branches of the service because I think we are a little inclined to be over critical. That is why I particularly noticed the reduction.


Edward Joseph Garland: I wish also to associate myself with the remarks of my hon. friend from Fort William. I think there are few departments which have been

pursuing so constantly useful a service to the members of this house as the Bureau of Statistics. I regret to see a reduction because, although the minister speaks of the quinquennial census as having passed by, yet I do know as a result of questions. I have asked Doctor Coats that there is much material still to be gathered, much synchronizing of the work of various collecting agencies, much tabulating and inter-relating of facts with respect to various works and developments throughout the country still to be done. I would suggest to the minister, whom I look upon as one of the most intelligent members of the ministry, and that is paying quite a compliment to the rest of the ministers, that when we come to agricultural statistics in particular, the Department of Trade and Commerce unfortunately is sadly lacking in the required personnel. I have found that through personal investigation, and I am perfectly satisfied that Doctor Coats could do with several assistants in that particular branch of his work.
There is another question which comes up at this stage. I wonder whether it would not be possible for the minister to consider the possibility of amalgamating two or three of the other statistical branches of this department with the Bureau of Statistics. That would result in greater uniformity, and in the elimination of some overhead and some overlapping that is existing at the present time, and on the whole I think the minister would find that it would result in more satisfactory work.
My principal objection to this reduction- it is very seldom that I object to a reduction -is that I am satisfied as a result of my own investigation that the Bureau of Statistics could do with additional personnel, particularly in the agricultural staff. For example, I go down there and ask for information respecting the capitalization of manufacturing industry in Canada. I get that information, and I go further and say that I would like to have a return showing the average wage paid and the total wages paid in manufacturing industries, and that I want the same information with regard to agriculture. But in agriculture I can only get an estimate, and that is very vague. I go still further. When I want to tabulate the relative economic value of agriculture to manufacturing, with absolute facts and figures, I am always given the answer:	We can give you this information
with respect to manufacturing fairly accurately, but not with respect to agriculture. I think in a country of this size, and in view

Supply-Trade and Commerce
of the paramount importance of agriculture, the minister will find that his department will not lose, and the country will not lose, by giving Doctor Coats all possible help in that direction. I compliment the minister, and particularly Doctor Coats, on the very excellent work which has been done in the past.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Can the minister say
when the bureau will be moved out of that firetrap in which it is now located? The Minister of Public Works told us some five weeks ago that the bureau would be moved out in six weeks, but from the look of the building at New Edinburgh I would say that it would be six weeks longer. In the event of a fire occurring in that building, with such crowded quarters, there would not only be the loss of valuable statistics, but the much more important loss of human life very probably, and I would just like to give this warning to the minister.


James Malcolm: I think everyone appreciates the danger of the quarters which the bureau is now in, and just as rapidly as the property which . we are taking over, which fortunately is fireproof, can be got ready, the bureau will be moved.
Mr. Cf)OTE: When the Minister of Public
orks slated that the Bureau of Statistics was going to be moved to the old mill at New Edinburgh, I thought it was the wrong place to put the bureau. It is too far away from the parliament buildings and from other government departments, with which the bureau must be in constant communication for the gathering of statistical information. I think the government might even yet consider placing the bureau in some building adjacent to the other departments of government, and certainly closer to the parliament buildings. I think it is an awful mistake to place the bureau away out there at New Edinburgh.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Electricity and gas, including international electro-technical commission, $203,960.
George Reginald Geary: What is the explanation of
this item?


James Malcolm: This is for the administration of the Gas and Electricity Act. The salaries of the staff amount to $163,484; contingencies, $45,615; $5,500 for revision; electrotechnical commission, $400.


George Gibson Coote: Is there some revenue collected in the administration of this act?


James Malcolm: This is a profit bearing
service; it more than supports itself.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Electricity and Fluid Exportation Act (export of electric energy), $1,000.
William Thomas Lucas: This item is small, but it
refers to the export of electric energy. Would the minister give a word of explanation?


James Malcolm: This act is administered by the electricity and gas inspection branch. By regulations established under the act, it is stipulated that the officers must visit any premises in which electric energy is generated and produced. Since the imposition of the export tax on electric energy, it is necessary to keep in close touch with the activities carried on in various exporting plants. It is estimated that $1,000 may be required to cover the travelling expenses and other contingencies which may arise.


William Thomas Lucas: Is there any considerable
amount of electric energy exported?


James Malcolm: I have the details if
my hon. friend would like me to read them. The licenses cover a total- export of electric energy amounting to 291,525 kilowatts. Fees paid amount to $675, and the export duties collected to $267,652.


William Thomas Lucas: From what province is that
exported?


James Malcolm: I think from almost
every province in Canada. It is exported by the Hydro Electric Commission of Toronto, Canadian Niagara Power Company, West Kootenay Power Company, Southern Canada Power Company, International Electric Power Company, Maritime Electric Power Company, and the Fraser-Power Company, of Edmundston, New Brunswick, and others.


George Reginald Geary: Not the Hydro Electric Commission, of Toronto: it is the Ontario Hydro Electric Commission.


James Malcolm: The Ontario Hydro
Electric Power Commission, at Toronto.


George Reginald Geary: It is under the old contract at the falls, is it not?


James Malcolm: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National Research Council, $300,000.
Mr. MILLAR:: Does the research work carried on at Winnipeg into the rust problem come under this vote?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Hugh Guthrie: There is a big increase in this vote; can the minister explain it?



Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Malcolm: We had a discussion of this item before, but I shall be glad to read from the brief again:
This vote is required to provide for the general activities of the National Research Council, including the organization, co-ordination and stimulation of research -work in Canada; grants in aid of scientific and industrial researches; special problems; scholarships for the post-graduate training in science and research of the best scientific talent graduating from Canadian universities, for service in the industries of Canada and in the technical departments of the government service; salaries of staff; general administration, and for such other purposes as the council may deem necessary in order to effectively carry on and extend its activities.
The sum of $170,000 was voted by parliament for the work of the council during the fiscal year 1927-28. The vote requested this year therefore represents an increase of $130,000 over the vote for 1927-28. _
This increased vote is required in order to effectively carry on the activities of the voluntary research organization, which has been built up by the council during the last ten years and which is steadily expanding along sound lines.	.
The National Research Council is charged with the functions and duties detailed in sections six and ten of the Research Council Act.
The act provides for a council of fifteen members, each of whom, with the exception of the president, serves in an honorary capacity, without remuneration, for a period of three years, one-third of the membership retiring each year. Under the act, the council is constituted a corporate body, capable of accepting and holding gifts, grants, bequests, etc., for the purpose of its work. All receipts and expenditures of the council are subject to examination by the Auditor General.
The president of the council may be a permanent officer, giving his full time to the work of the council.
The president of the council has given up his position as president of the Edmonton university and will now be in definite charge of the work.


Peter McGibbon: Has the minister dropped the somewhat elaborate program that he outlined earlier this session?


James Malcolm: Not at all. That was to provide for the permanent laboratories of the council; this is the administration vote. This $130,000 increase is necessary this year to carry on the work of the council while the new quarters are being provided.


Peter McGibbon: When do you expect that to take place?


James Malcolm: I did not catch my hon. friend's question.


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: How much money is spent on research work in Ottawa?


James Malcolm: I cannot give my hon. friend an answer. I believe there are three

separate research investigations going on: one by the National Research Council, another by the Board of Grain Commissioners, and a third by the Department of Agriculture.


George Gibson Coote: Have the National Research Council their own investigators that are being paid out of the moneys voted under this item?


James Malcolm: Yes, everything is paid out of this item with respect to their own investigations.


George Gibson Coote: I think the rust research work is carried on partly by the Department of Agriculture.


James Malcolm: The Department of
Agriculture is conducting research work on the rust problem independently of the work that is being done by the Board of Grain Commissioners in their laboratories at Winnipeg. The National Research Council is making a contribution to that work.


George Gibson Coote: I understand that the building which is being used for rust research work at Winnipeg was built out of moneys voted to the Department of Agriculture, and the work is being done by its officials. Am I correct?


James Malcolm: If my hon. friftid is referring to the work that is being done by the Manitoba College, the money was voted by the Department of Agriculture, but the research work that is being carried on by the Board of Grain Commissioners in connection with the rust problem comes under the Trade and Commerce department vote.


George Gibson Coote: In connection with the resignation of one or two of the officials who were engaged in the rust research work at Winnipeg, were they in the employ of the National Research Council or of the Department of Agriculture?


James Malcolm: They must have been in the employ of the Department of Agriculture, because we have had no men leave our staff.


George Gibson Coote: Will the classification and salaries of the men who are in the employ of th National Research Council come under the Civil Service Commission?


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend understands that a great many of the technical men engaged in rust research work are not employees of the government at all'; they are professors of the universities in the west. We make contributions to their salaries Only part of their time is devoted to rust research work, and they do not come under the Civil Service Commission.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


George Gibson Coote: I want to ascertain whether the National Research Council engages these men. One of the men I had in mind is Mr. Bailey. I believe he has left the service either of the Department of Agriculture or of the National Research Council.


James Malcolm: The Department of Agriculture.


John Gordon Ross: The rust research work is extremely important to western Canada. As I understand, only a few thousand dollars per annum are spent on this work, whereas the loss to the grain crop of western Canada during the past few years has been tremendous. It would be well for whatever department is handling this work to consider very seriously the extension of its operations. In some seasons we have lost as much as 8150,000,000 from rust. As against this appalling loss we are spending only about $50,000 in trying to cope with the rust problem. I think this is one place where the government might spend a large sum of money until we find some commercial preventive for rust, and I wish the Minister of Trade and Commerce, along with the ministers of any other departments concerned, would take seriously into consideration the expenditure of more money on this very important research work.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Mr. Chairman, last Saturday a gentleman greatly interested in research work drew my attention to the overlapping in this connection. The Fisheries department and the Agriculture department are carrying on research work, and the Interior department has almost a research branch of its own. Now you have the Department of Trade and Commerce. Cannot we do something to save the country's money by co-ordinating the efforts of these various departments? You will not get these various departments to relinquish their activities unless you strangle them by withholding money for the purpose. The officials of the Interior department will insist on carrying on their little show in connection with coal, iron and other things, the fisheries department will insist on their experts dealing with their problems, and the Agriculture department will never let go their particular work. At the present moment there is a waste of money. It has been found in the United States, Great Britain and Germany that the only way to do research work effectively is to bring it under one control, and until that is dune neither Doctor Tory nor anyone else will make a success of it. If he
56103-237*
is made chairman of the research council he must have control of all the research work carried on in this country by the various branches of government departments.


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend is making some rather strong statements with respect to the research work being carried on in this country.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And they are warranted.


Charles A. Stewart: I take issue with my hon. friend.


Richard Bedford Bennett: We will discuss it this
afternoon.


Charles A. Stewart: Both Doctor Grisdale and Doctor Camsell are members of the research council.
Mr. BENNETT. Quite so.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon. friend failed to mention that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Everybody knows it.


Charles A. Stewart: Of course,
but he failed to mention it to this committee and he has failed to do so on former occasions.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What has that got to
do with it?


Charles A. Stewart: Not only do Doctor Grisdale and Doctor Camsell sit on the research council, but they are parties to the program of research work prepared by the council. So far we have not had laboratories under the control of the research council. My hon. friend knows that full well.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Interior department has.


Charles A. Stewart: I will deal
with the Interior department in a minute. For the present I am dealing with the two departments my hon. friend has been criticizing. So far there have been no laboratories other than those provided by the departments of Agriculture and Mines to carry on this work, and only such work as should be carried on has been undertaken by these two departments. But that does not mean that they cannot be co-ordinated with the research council. Not for a single moment does it mean that. They have been coordinated, and I wish to assure my hon. friend that there has been no overlapping in any work that has been done. I cannot speak so authoritatively in respect of fisheries; there may have been in the Fisheries department. But I can speak for the work done in the Mines department as well as in Agriculture

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because both these gentlemen are fully conversant with the program set out by the research council. That is why I rise to put my hon. friend right on the question. As I say,
I cannot-speak with equal authority in regard to fisheries, but 1 shall be glad to know the point at which there has been duplication of work as between the research council and the fisheries department. I should also be glad to know, if my hon. friend would tell me, where there is interference, on. the part of the research work carried on in the wood products laboratory in the Department of Interior, with the research council's program, because I have tried to avoid such overlapping. I do not say that co-ordination should not take place; I am all for it and will use every effort to ensure coordination, so far as I am able to bring it about. I repeat, however, that so far there has been no overlapping as suggested. To say that there has been overlapping in all departments is not borne out by the facts.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am sdrry the minister
has not accurately followed my observations. Several departments are independently expending public moneys. That is the point I was endeavouring to make. These departments are independently spending the money in research work, and that should not be. Whoever is responsible for research work should spend the money. The Department of the Interior, as we know, and as was pointed out the other evening, has buildings and is spending public moneys in research work. The Department of Agriculture is also being voted money for research work; the fisheries department is voted money for research work; and the mines branch is also being voted money for the same purpose. The point I wish to make is that if the organi-ation -which is now taking over research work i3 to succeed it must have control over these operations. It is idle to say that some gentleman associated with the Department of the Interior or some deputy minister of mines are members of this research council, for as indicated by the minister the other evening-it is not necessary to repeat it-the research council has certain duties to perform. This is clear: so long as parliament makes votes to various departments who may independently spend these moneys, as they are now doing, co-ordination, and overlapping are not only inevitable but follow from day to day. The minister speaks of wood products; there is about as much necessity for that work as carried on as there is for a fifth wheel to a coach. The University of McGill was endeavouring to carry on that work, but

the Department of the Interior wanted it and got it. And we are voting public money for it. If you are to have one department to carry on this work, let all moneys be voted to that department; but do not make separate grants to separate departments for research activities. That is my point and that is the point to which I direct the attention of the minister. The fact that Doctor Grisdale or Doctor Camsell is a member of the council is beside the point; the point is that this country is asked to grant sums of money to be expended independently by various departments of the public service, whereas the whole matter should be in the hands of the research department.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend has changed his ground slightly since his first statement.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Not a bit.


Charles A. Stewart: So far there has been no overlapping, which my hon. friend distinctly stated was formerly the case.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And I repeat it now;
there is bound to be.


Charles A. Stewart: 
Arthur Edward Ross: I wish to emphasize the observation that there is want of co-ordination and waste of money at the present time. I would direct the attention of the committee to the statement of the president of the council as to the duties of that body. I am strongly in sympathy with the work and I am a strong supporter of research, but I must condemn the results we are obtaining at present. The duties of the council, as indicated by the president, are these: first, to promote the utilization of the natural resources of Canada; second, to undertake researches with the object of improving technical processes and methods used in the industries of Canada, and of discovering processes and methods which may promote the expansion of existing or the development of new industries; and, third, to undertake researches with a view to the utilization of the waste products of industry. I shall discuss only two or three things to show that there is a waste of money as well as a want of co-ordination in the work, judging from the results. Take fishing, for example. There is a biological board going into research work in the fisheries. That board has published a report on the oyster, a report which this government has never attempted to implement. There is also the report of a commission requesting the enforcement of the recommendations of the
biological 'board. So much for that; it will stand a good deal of study. In the next place we have the work done in the mines branch. I would ask the committee this question: What is the use of publishing all these books on chemical and metallurgical development, on arsenic, the survey of Canada for arsenic, fuel ore, testing and so forth? Here are reports from the research committee which the government has ignored in its budget. What is ore testing except examining the tailings of mining plants and of smelters? They are trying to find some way of making use of these things, yet with that in mind this government have admitted into Canada the materials which go into the manufacture of insect poisons and insecticides. Here was an opportunity to use our low grade ores throughout the country; the Department of Mines published a big book on arsenic, containing a survey of the arsenical ores of Canada, and yet we import from the United States all these articles, among them arsenic in large quantities.
This is a subject on which I could speak for a long time, but I am going to stop now. The report of the Department of Mines draws attention to the fact that the time has now arrived when low grade ores should be considered and used, yet by our budget wc have taken away an opportunity to make use of them. I have here a list of thirty-three industries in Quebec, Ontario and British Columbia using these low grade ores of which arsenic is one of the most important byproducts. For years arsenic was a white elephant at all smelters; no- use could be found for it, but finally the discovery was made that it was a very good insecticide. The United States supply was used up in two years, but they surveyed their fields and at present they have all their arsenical ores located. We have just completed our survey, yet now that we have an opportunity to build up new industries which will give employment to our people, by our budget we have wiped o-ut any possibility of using these ores. For that reason I say there is a great lack of co-operation >in this work which is being carried on. I approve of the work done by the research council, but I do condemn the government for the use they have made of the reports and recommendations made by that body.


John Millar: I am sorry this vote is so small. I should like to know how much money has been spent on rust research, but

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since part of this work is under the Department of Trade and Commerce and part under the Department of Agriculture it seems impossible to secure that information. However, -if the total amount of this vote were spent on rust research it would be much too small. One of the three professors at the agricultural college at Winnipeg, has made a discovery in connection with rust which has s(t|artled the sctientifiq men of the North American continent, yet we have lost this man and possibly two others simply because they were not being paid sufficient salaries. The hon. member for Moose Jaw stated that hi some years our loss from rust amounted to 8150,000,000, and I think he was not. far over the mark. I doubt if the loss would average that much year by year, but for the last four or five years a conservative estimate of the loss would be $50,000,000 per year, ana that is increasing annually. If this vote is any indication of the amount of money being spent on rust research, the sum is altogether too small, and I hope the minister will see that in another year this work is pushed on and a larger amount expended in that connection.
There is another question I should like to ask, although I do not know whether or not the minister will be able to give me the information. I wish to know whether the places of those men who have left the service have been filled. That does not come under this department, so perhaps I cannot expect it from the minister, but if he has that information I shall be glad to get it.


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend realizes that up to the present the National Research Council has contributed grants in aid of research to our laboratories. I am sorry the information before me is not definite in connection with the grants; they are not divided, although the total amount of money granted in aid of research last year is $170,000. How much of that was actually granted for rust research I cannot say, but I can assure my hon. -friend that with a larger vote this year that grant will be increased accordingly, and that when the laboratories of the research council in Ottawa are in operation, with the council directing the research work of Canada in general, as I hope will be the case in years to come, very sympathetic consideration will be given the question of rust research.


Edward Joseph Garland: On the
question of the co-ordination of the activities of the various research branches, I do not

think even the leader of the opposition could point to any single country in which there is complete co-ordination; I do not think that is possible. I think in every country we will find that certain needs arise in certain industries and that certain universities will be carrying on certain lines of investigation. That is the situation in Canada, and as far as research in agriculture is concerned, I would hesitate quite a long while before recommending that the entire administration and direction of agricultural research should be placed completely under the control of the National Research Council. I am afraid that at times, in all countries, scientific men assume positions of directorship without hav-the agricultural viewpoint, and if you take away that important viewpoint from a scientific body such as the National Research Council, we might find ourselves in serious difficulties in the future. However, I do think that co-ordination can be sensibly and logically carried to the point where direction may be secured from some central body, while the actual research work itself might remain under the auspices of the particular department concerned.


Mr. EVANS:: I understand that the grain
testing laboratory at Winnipeg is under the National Research Council?


James Malcolm: I might correct my hon. friend there; the grain testing laboratory is not under the research council at all. It is under the grain vote.


John Evans: I was going to ask if it is
possible to have the reports of that laboratory distributed systematically so that the public may receive the benefit of their findings. I refer particularly to methods of drying grain, which cost the farmers of the west millions of dollars last year. I understand that Doctor Tory was directing that laboratory, and I would like to see the reports which have come out regarding the methods of drying grain, so that the farmers might receive something from the off grades of their grain.


James Malcolm: There is a report on
that subject at the printing bureau now, and we may be able to lay it on the table of the house before the end of the session. I think it will be ready in a week or ten days.


Peter McGibbon: Since we have been
dealing with this subject for about ten years, may I ask the minister what progress has been reported, if any?

Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend
realizes that the National Research Council has been giving scholarships and granting aid to research up to the present time with a limited vote. Now we propose to establish laboratories in Ottawa just as soon as they can be equipped.


Peter McGibbon: That was not exactly
what I meant. What discoveries have been made by the council so far?


James Malcolm: My hon. friend has no
doubt received the annual report of the research council. It is a very long document, and the work of the council is pretty well covered. It is rather too long to read, but I shall be glad to let my hon. friend have my copy if he has not received one.


Peter McGibbon: I think a number of
members of parliament, together with myself and other people throughout the Dominion, have submitted problems to the council for solution. The question I submitted was the problem of extracting the tanning properties from hemlock bark, and I wonder if any progress has been made?


James Malcolm: I cannot give my hon.
friend any definite information at the moment, but I shall be glad to get a report on the matter for him.


Mr. MILNE:: I am not sure that this is
the proper place to bring to the attention of the government the importance of the rust epidemic in western Canada, but I presume it will be appropriate here. It has been my experience in talking to people of this section of the Dominion that they do not grasp the significance of this outbreak of rust in western Canada. Very often when I mention it they say, "The whole trouble is that you fellows do not go into mixed farming." I should like to spend a good deal of time on this subject, but I will simply make a few statements.
The first statement I want to make is regarding the growing of hard wheat in western Canada. This has put western Canada on the map; if that country had been left to the development of dairying and mixed farming a good portion of it would still be a 'wilderness. Not so many years ago you could go down into the central states as far as Wisconsin and you would find that a large portion of the crop consisted of wheat, while to-day there
is practically no wheat grown. That movement has been coming north, and to-day Manitoba is not producing twenty-five per cent of the hard wheat she should be producing. Her crop last year was less than half what we consider her average crop should be, and of that half less than fifty per cent was hard wheat and the rest durum.
This rust area has spread until it practically reaches the northern section of the wheatgrowing area of Manitoba. It is now extending west; it has covered a large area of Saskatchewan and has reached into Alberta. The only remaining area for the wheat grower to recede into is the Peace River country. This epidemic has continued for many years, and we have reached the point where we have to put our backs to the wall and fight, because there is no area in western Canada left for wheat. When western Canada has to stop growing wheat we shall have lost our best means of return. This is the position so far as the rust question is concerned, and I hope the government and the business men of this section of the country will realize the facte as they are and endeavour to face them. The small amount of money we are expending in an endeavour to find some means of overcoming this epidemic is pitiful. We have the development of wheats which are rust-resisting; some of our scientists are talking about parasites to overcome the difficulty, while others maintain that cultural methods may be successful. The field is so broad that $50,000 or less is not going to make very much of an impression on this very important matter. When it was being discussed the other day the Minister of Finance told us that the salaries of the scientific men were controlled by the Civil Service Commission. If the Civil Service Commission can obtain a man who is a graduate of some recognized college, who has taken post-graduate work, and has four years' experience in that special line, at a salary of $2,760, I will have no particular complaint to make just now. But it seems to me unreasonable to expect a man to come in and undertake investigation of such a broad field as the rust question at such a salary.
The amount we are spending on this problem seems to me to be like tossing a pebble in the ocean, so far as the effect is concerned. I am not going to enlarge on this in any way, but I do want to impress on the government and this country the significance of this question. Rust is driving the grain growing areas into the extreme north of the country, and large sections which are adapted to the grow-

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mg of wheat in every way are practically put out of business on account of this scourge. I do hope that in the near future the government will spend a sufficiently large sum of money to be able to cope with this extremely serious situation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Motion picture bureau, $50,000.
Mr. BRADY:: I should like the minister to give us an explanation of the extent of the work done in this very important branch.


James Malcolm: This vote is an increase of S15,000 over last year, and is necessary to meet the requirements of the bureau due to considerable expansion in the service, the greater number of film feet produced, and the greater number of film subjects circulated, which will be more in the first seven months of 1927-28 than in the last fiscal year. The present equipment will have to be augmented, and in some cases replaced.
In 1926-27 we produced 600,000 feet of film for circulation, while in this past year we have produced 749,000 feet. We expect that there will be a total production of 1,000,000 feet of film this year. In 1926-27 we had 601 film subjects circulated through 21 agencies, and in the past year we have had 908 subjects circulated through 35 agencies. There are three moving picture cameras in the bureau, one of which is practically useless, while the others do not meet present day requirements, all this equipment having been there since its organization ten years ago. There will also be some increased drying equipment to put in this year. The revenue from the department ha3 been from $11,900 up to a peak of $27,876. In 1925-26 it was down to $22,163. In 1927-28 to January 31, 1928-that is a part year-it amounted to $14,456. The total expenditure for 1923-24 was $27,689, and for 1927-28 to January 31, 1928, it amounted to $29,989, exclusive of the salary list.


Edward Joseph Garland: I understand last year when the minister had this particular item before the committee, he stated that the director was then in Los Angeles negotiating for the sale and distribution of our motion picture reels. I think he went further and stated that the director had been sent on this mission in the expectation of putting the bureau on its feet. The figures just given to the committee indicate a revenue of Mr. Milne.]
about $27,800 and expenses, exclusive of salaries, of $29,900. The expenses alone exceed the revenue by more than $2,000, so that evidently the sending away of the director on this sale mission was not very successful. Would the minister care to give the committee the reason?


James Malcolm: I would rather my hon. friend had not put the question in that way. Our director went to Los Angeles and made a contract which at the time it was first submitted to the department seemed to be a tremendously profitable one, but it did not turn out to be as satisfactory as it had appeared. The director who made the contract unfortunately died just Shortly after he returned and we were not in a position to discuss the contract very much. It did not turn out well and we let it drop. It was not as successful as it should have been. The present director has just returned from England and he reports fairly good opportunities to distribute Canadian films in the old country but I will make no forecast as to the result. We will wait and see how well it works out.


Miss MACPHAIL:: Are the films available for schools and colleges in Canada or are they just sent outside of this country?


James Malcolm: I think my hon. friend realizes the fire regulations with regard to showing films. Our stock is the inflammable type of film that can be shown only under certain conditions in motion picture theatres. They cannot be shown in schools because the fire underwriters would not give their permission.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Would it not be worth while to have the type of film that could be shown in schools? I find that both public and high schools are anxious to secure films that will help the children in getting a better grasp of the country and its many activities and this is one way of teaching the children rapidly and pleasantly. The government might very well spend money on such a project.


James Malcolm: The motion picture
bureau was started by the Department of Trade and Commerce for the promotion of trade and not from an educational standpoint. The matter of education is under the jurisdiction of the provinces. The films are the

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standard motion films which are distributed films during the first nine months of the fiscal and in some cases sold. The distribution of year 1927-28 is as follows:
Country
Australia	
Austria and Jugo-Slavia	
British West Indies:
Jamaica	
Trinidad	
China	
Cuba	
England	
France	
Germany	
Holland, Belgium and Scandinavian
countries	
India	
Italy	
Japan	
Norway and Sweden	
South Africa	
South America	
United States	
Total	
In theatrical circulation either revenue-producing or sold outright 120
In circulation theatrically and non-theatrieally, free
	10
	8
	8
	12
	6
25	20
15	10
	16
32	3
	4
	6
4	10
	9
is	10
24	13
38	895
273	1,040
These reels are being constantly circulated and shown by theatres. The second list is a free list.


Robert James Manion: Is it for purposes of trade that they are sent to China and India? It is evidently not for immigration purposes.


James Malcolm: They are all trade reels. They are sent free as a matter of developing trade.


George Hamilton Pettit: In connection with the films that are sent out of the country, may I suggest that the pictures showing Canada should deal more largely with scenes showing fruit areas, farming areas, sport areas and our lakes and streams than they now do? I have heard it remarked often by people living outside of this country that we show too many winter scenes. People living in the southern states and elsewhere come to regard Canada as "Our Lady of the Snows" rather than as an agricultural country having a milder climate. We in Canada know the conditions that exist at different seasons of the year, but people living in the southern states, with whom I have come into contact, owing very largely to films showing winter scenes, have views regarding Canada which are rather astonishing. These pictures are very beautiful no doubt, but I would suggest that the department see to it that the films shown deal more with matters such as those I have mentioned.


Mr. JOHNSTONE (Cape Breton):: I should like to ask the minister just exactly what these scenes cover? Do they take in the whole of Canada?


James Malcolm: The best answer I can give to my hon. friend would be to ask him to pay a visit to the motion picture bureau and see some of the films. They cover a very broad range of industrial activities throughout the whole of the Dominion. The hon. member for Welland (Mr. Pettit) asked that certain stress be laid on the class of film that would depict Canada as being a warmer country than it is depicted by some others. This is not a large vote; it is only a matter of $50,000 for the whole service, and we have to endeavour to secure all classes of films to represent all classes of industry, agriculture, fruit-growing, mining, pulp and paper, fishing. I think the director can hardly be criticized for being unfair to any one class of industry. He has divided up his films covering all industries and all parts of Canada as well as can reasonably be expected. Those who have seen the full range of films have never criticized the division. My hon. friend can get a catalogue of the films we have in the bureau. I shall be glad to send him one and to let him see the class of films that are shown.


Lewis Wilkieson Johnstone: An important point is that of attracting tourists. For instance, Cape Breton is one of the most beautiful spots in Canada and I have not seen any films pertaining to Cape Breton for the purpose of encouraging the tourist traffic. I think it would be a good idea to have views of the Bras d'Or lakes shown so that tourists may be attracted by their scenic beauty and fishing possibilities.

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James Charles Brady: This amount is really not enough when one considers the importance of the work the motion picture bureau is doing for Canada. Publicity to-day is so important that I think the minister is rather modest in asking for such a small amount for this service. As the hon. member for Southeast Grey has said, there are thousands of our children today who are ignorant of -the country in which they live. I was very pleased to see at a theatre in Ottawa the other evening a very beautiful picture of the Bella Coola Indians, and I heard many favourable comments on this wonderful part of -the country, and heard people ask, was -it possible that such people really were found in this historic place of Bella Coola. I would uige that in view of the importance of the motion picture bureau, more money should be expended and a greater effort made to develop it in accordance with the wishes of the people of this country.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Printing of parliamentary and departmental publications, including the "Canada Year Book", $118,000.
Edward Joseph Garland: When may we expect the next publication of the Canada Year Book? It has been a couple of years since we had one?


James Malcolm: I think the 1927 issue
is out.


Edward Joseph Garland: I have not
received it yet.


James Malcolm: I think it is available.


Edward Joseph Garland: May I ask what is the date of the latest issue which the minister says is out?


James Malcolm: I have not the date,
but I have the estimated cost of publishing the book.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Weights and measures inspection, including the international bureau of weights and measures, $333,000.
Thomas Cantley: Is this self-supporting?


James Malcolm: Yes, and profitable.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Publicity and advertising in Canada, and to hereby appoint Herbert E. M. Chisholm as director of publicity at $4,000 per annum, and to hereby appoint the necessary staff to carry on this service, $50,000.
Edward Joseph Garland: I take it
that this vote covers the full page advertise-

ments of the activities of the department which have been appearing in the newspapers during the past year? Is there any other publicity work done?


James Malcolm: Yes. The advertising
which is being done under Mr. Chisholm's department covers really two -classes of advertising. There is the newspaper advertising, the object of which is to create and stimulate an interest in export trade, and the other is advertising tlnough the trade journals and magazines. Information is now being published in the trade journals which formerly appeared to a certain extent in the Commercial Intelligence Journal; that is to say, inquiries and information with regard to the work of our trade commissioners will now be published monthly in the trade journals. That covers part of the appropriation; the balance will be required for magazine and newspaper advertising.


Edward Joseph Garland: The minister has mentioned the work of the commercial intelligence service. I understand that at a previous meeting of the committee he stated that we had only one trade commissioner in the United States, at New York; is that correct?


James Malcolm: Yes.


Edward Joseph Garland: Has the
minister under consideration the appointment of any more trade commissioners in the United States?


James Malcolm: That is rather a difficult question for me to answer. I doubt if any two men would agree on the number of trade commissioners we should have in United States. We would have asked for a larger appropriation for the commercial intelligence service this year had we the number of men in training and trained to send to the field, but at the present time we have not many men in training. It would take a very considerable number to canvass the American field to the extent that some people think it should be canvassed. But we have passed that vote, and I hardly care to give my hon. friend a definite answer at the moment.


Edward Joseph Garland: My only
purpose in bringing the matter up was that in Canada in practically every city of importance we have a United States consular agent who does largely the work of one of our trade commissioners. He gathers all the business information that is required, and sends it back to the bureau that was established by Mr. Hoover, and the result is that you can

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go into the bureau at Washington and secure information about Canada and about business in any section of the country that you could not secure in many of our own cities, and it just occurred to me to suggest to the minister a way out of his difficulties. I am informed that the total fees paid for consular certificates and vises of all kinds for 1925 amounted to $1,137,000, and that the amount collected for invoice vises granted by the consular agents of the United States amounted to $459,346, while the total expenditure for the whole United States consular service in Canada was only $370,080; so there was a balance to the credit of the United States consular service of $1,226,000. If these figures be accurate- I have them only on hearsay-they do point the way out for the Minister of Trade and Commerce. He could secure consular representation of this country in the United States, and have our agents do this investigational work and the gathering of information, just as the United States consular agents do here. For example, in the city of Calgary the United States consular agent appears every morning with the secretary of the board of trade, and inquires if there is anything to report to-day, any news at all. He also attends the meetings of the chamlber of commerce, and goes around and has a chat with the different members, and if there is anything new moving, any new development in connection with the tar sands or mineral deposits or any discoveries in oil, the information is passed on to the Hoover bureau in Washington. A service of the same magnitude may not be required by this country, but the functions of this department might well be broadened to include an active propaganda looking to the development of the home market to the same degree that you are working for the development of external markets. I have no doubt the minister has already this matter under advisement because he is not only intelligent, as I said, but he has a lot of vision. I think he might well take into consideration the possibility of establishing some sort of service such as I have suggested, which would not only be self-sustaining, but might in time return a handsome profit annually.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mail subsidies and steamship subventions, $862,675.
Atlantic Ocean
Canada and South Africa, steam service between, $100,000.
Pacific Ocean
Canada and New Zealand on the Pacific ocean, service between, $100,000.
Pacific Ocean-Concluded
Prince Rupert, B.C., and the Queen Charlotte islands, steam service between, $21,000.
Victoria, Vancouver, way ports and Skagway, steam service between, $25,000.
Vancouver and West Coast Vancouver island, steam service between, $15,000.
Vancouver and northern ports of British Columbia, steam service between, $24,800.
Vancouver and ports on Howe Sound, service between, $5,000.
Vancouver and the British West Indies, service between, $36,000.
Local Services
Baddeck and Iona, steam service between, $10,500.
Charlottetown and Pictou, steam service between, $35,000.
Charlottetown, Victoria and Holliday's wharf, steam service between, $5,000.
Dalhousie, N.B.. and Carleton, Que., steam service between, $3,000.
Grand Manan and the mainland, $20,000.
Halifax, Canso and Guysboro, steam service between, $9,000.
Halifax, LaHave and LaHave River ports, steam service between, $6,000.
Halifax, Spry bay and Cape Breton ports, steam service between, $6,000.
Halifax and Bay St. Lawrence, service between, $2,400.
Halifax, South Cape Breton and Bras d'Or lake ports, steam service between, $5,000.
Halifax and West Coast Cape Breton, service between, $6,000.
Mainland, Miscou and Shippegan, service between, $2,000.
Mulgrave, Arichat and Petit de Grat, steam service between, $13,000.
Mulgrave and Canso, service between, $28,125.
Mulgrave and Guysboro, calling at intermediate ports, steam service between, $14,000.
Newcastle, Neguac and Esquminac, calling at intermediate points on the Miramiehi river and bay, steam service between, $4,500.
Parrsboro', Kingsport and Wolfville, service between, $5,000.
Pelee Island and the mainland, steam service between, $11,000.
Pictou, Mulgrave and Cheticamp, steam service between, $11,000.
Port Mulgrave, St. Peter's, Irish cove and Marble Mountain, and other ports on the Bras d'Or lakes, steam service between, $10,350.
Pictou, Souris and the Magdalen islands, steam service between, $50,000.
Quebec, Natashquam and Harrington, and other ports on the north shore of the gulf of St. Lawrence, steam service between, $85,000.
Quebec, or Montreal, and Gaspe, and other ports on the south shore of the gulf of St. Lawrence, steam service between, $60,000.
Rimouski and Pointe aux Outardes, service between, $7,500.
Riviere du Loup and Tadoussac and other north shore ports, $15,000.
St. Catherine's Bay and Tadoussac, service between, $4,000.
St. John and Bear River and other way ports, steam service between, $2,000.
St. John and Bridgetown, steam service between, $1,000.
St. John and Digby, service between, $15,000.
St. John, Digby, Annapolis and Granville, steam service between, $2,000.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Trade and Commerce
Local Services-Concluded
St. John, Margaretville, and other ports on the bay of Fundy, steam service between, $3,500.
St. John and St. Andrews calling at intermediate points, service between, $4,000.
St. John, Westport and Yarmouth, and other way ports, steam service between, $15,000.
St. John and Minas Basin ports, steam ser-
Sydnev and Bras d'Or lake ports and ports on the West Coast of Cape Breton, steam service between, $18,000.
St. John and Weymouth, steam service between, $1,500.
Sydney and Bay St. Lawrence, calling at way ports, steam service between. $18,000.
Sydney and Whycocomagh, steam service between, $13,000.
Trois Pistoles and Les Escoumains, service between, $1,000.
Grant to the province of British Columbia for the improvement of the mail service on inland waters in that province, $3,000.
Inspection of subsidized steamship services, $5,000.-Total, $862,675.
James Malcolm: Mr. Chairman, I should like the committee to consider these two pages of steamship subsidies from vote 151 to vote 200, covering the existing and established steamship services to which we are paying subsidies. The only change in the whole list is an increase of $500 in one item and $5,500 representing appropriations not used. Last session when we considered these votes, I pointed out that it would be more to the advantage of the committee to take up any one item they wished to discuss and then pass all the votes together. It is a long list.


Mr. SHORT:: As these are practically the
same subsidies that are voted from year to year, I think the minister's suggestion a good one.


James Charles Brady: Mr. Chairman, I desire to
refer to item 153. The minister is already aware that a large petition was signed by the people of Queen Charlotte islands for a better service, but their prayer was not granted because of the expenditure involved. But that does not alter the fact that the service between Prince Rupert and the Queen Charlotte islands is very poor indeed. The tourist service along the Pacific coast from Vancouver to the north, as the minister is well aware, is in a very congested state, and even as early as five weeks ago the accommodation on the Canadian Northern and the Canadian Pacific boats was practically all booked until the end of July. It means that thousands of tourists who were anxious to take the Alaska trip will not be able to do so. I believe it is imperative that the

Canadian National put two new boats on the Alaskan trip, and that they should provide an improved service to Queen Charlotte islands, and also to Anyox, the smelter city, and to Stewart, which to-day is in the centre of the greatest mining development that British Columbia has known for many years. I should like the minister seriously to consider that proposition. Last year I wished to go down to Vancouver, but being a local resident it was impossible for me to book a passage on any of the tourist boats. A week ago I was in Montreal, and I found there the congestion was just as great as in Vancouver. When we consider that our tourist trade is the third greatest revenue producer surely every effort should be made to encourage it by improving our steamship and other services. I am told that two million tourists passed through Ontario last year. I contend that in our steamship service we are lagging far behind present-day requirements. I trust an effort will be made by the minister before another year to improve both the island service and the tourist service from Vancouver to Skagway.


John Frederick Johnston: Is it the pleasure of
the committee that votes 151 to 200 inclusive be carried?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


[Stage Direction]
Items agreed to.
Canada and Newfoundland, steam service between, $35,000.
Thomas Cantley: Does the minister think
this item is needed? There is an established service from the St. Lawrence and Nova Scotia ports to Newfoundland. Where does this boat run to?


James Malcolm: This subsidy is to be
paid, as it was in former years, to the existing service. It is not a new service. This subsidy is granted in connection with the trade agreement which we have just made with Newfoundland. Under that agreement we are given the most favoured nation treatment, and in consideration of it we are to restore the subsidy which Canada paid to this service. When the necessary legislation is passed in the Newfoundland house we will pay the money.


Thomas Cantley: With what port of Newfoundland does this service connect?


James Malcolm: Port aux Basques.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

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Canada and South Africa, steamship service between-further amount required, $25,000.
Edward Joseph Garland: Why was
it not possible to include this and the other items in the estimates proper?


James Malcolm: The estimates were prepared before Christmas of last year. These items have come up within the last three months.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Eastern Canada and Brazil, Uruguay and the Argentine republic, steam service between, $100,000.
James Malcolm: This is an entirely new
service. In view of the present trade conditions between Canada and the Argentine and the river Plate ports, it seemed desirable to establish a service similar to the service that we have between Canada and South Africa, sailing from Montreal in the summer months and from the Atlantic ports in the winter months. We could have secured the service from boats flying a foreign flag, but we felt it would be better to give the Canadian Government Merchant Marine the opportunity. I am perfectly frank in saying to the committee that if we have to pay $100,000 for a steamship service, we might as well pay it to our own merchant marine. The first service will start on June 9. Advertisements have already been issued. The subsidy is $10,000 per trip-ten trips per year. From the information we have obtained from shippers, we rather think the service will be just as great a benefit as the South Africa service has proved to be.


William Anderson Black: Any tenders asked for that?


James Malcolm: Enquiries were made as to what it could be secured for and tenders were invited more or less privately to ascertain the cost.


Mr. BELL (St. John):: Are the winter sailings on this line distributed between Halifax and S>t. John?


James Malcolm: Halifax and St. John in the winter and Montreal in the summer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pictou, New Glasgow and Antigonish county ports, service between, $1,000.
Thomas Cantley: What was this last year?


James Malcolm: This was not in last year; this is a restoration of a former service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and Centreville, steam service between, $1,000,
Harry Bernard Short: I presume this is a vote for the steamer Disco from Centreville to St. John. It is a new service?


James Malcolm: Yes, a new service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John, Westport, Yarmouth and other way ports, steam service between-further amount required, $3,000.
Harry Bernard Short: Is this an additional service to be given? I notice in the regular estimates there is $15,000 for the same steamer. Is this to be an increased service?


James Malcolm: No; it is a straight increase of $3,000 in the subsidy for a service which was not paying.


Harry Bernard Short: How many trips a week?


James Malcolm: Seventy trips per annum.


George Reginald Geary: Round trips?


James Malcolm: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
National Defence:	Militia services-administration, $317,000.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: When this vote was last before the committee we had two excellent addresses from the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) and the hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Mae-phail). I am sure we all agree that peace is a good thing. In fact when I left Calgary I met no less a personage than Major General Archibald Macdonnell, who made a strong statement to me. He said, " Don't ever think that a general who has seen his men gassed, cut up and blown to pieces wants another war like the last I feel sure that all members of the house, whether they are returned soldiers or not, have a common desire for peace. The addresses of my hon. friends who spoke the other evening remind me very much of an incident related by Doctor Michael Clark, who once sat in this house. When in England during the Boer war he held a peace meeting in ithe town of Newcastle-on-Tyne. In the course of the meeting a number of soldiers and others in favour of the war broke in and disturbed the meeting by singing Soldiers of the Queen and other war songs. I said, "And doctor, what did you do in that case?" He said, A few of us old football players went at them and threw them out by the scruff of the neck ". I observed thait this was a rather belligerent method for a lover
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of peace to adopt, and he replied that he loved peace so well that he could fight for it. The speeches made by my two friends the other evening are what I should call fighting speeches for peace, while the speech made by the Minister of National Defence was a pacific speech for militia.
In all fairness .to the department and to the government itself it must be said that their record shows that they are not altogether war lords. During its term the government has expressed itself several (times in favour of any movement for peace. When I raised the question of the signing of the optional clause by Canada, one minute before six the Minister of Justice took occasion to declare that the government would support the optional clause. And while my hon. friend from Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) was discussing the matter the other day the Prime Minister himself rose and stated that the Minister of Justice had spoken for the government and that they would gladly take any opportunity that offered to advance the cause of peace. Last Friday night the Prime Minister laid on the table the invitation of the United States to join in a multilateral peace treaty and the reply of Canada, which was favourable. So I think in all fairness to the government it might be termed a peace government, but with that, even though I do not .regard the Minister of National Defence as a war lord or the government as a war government, the minister must be prepared for a very searching inquiry as we go through these estimates. I rather think he will not resent it; he should not do so, and he dhould be able to give very good reasons why these estimates are being increased. I do not think I should say anything more at the moment, but as we go through these estimates, I shall take occasion, together with other hon. members, to subject the minister to some very close questioning.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Cadet services, $500,000.
Agnes Campbell Macphail: I would like to ask the minister if the department are doing all they can to form additional cadet corps throughout Canada, and what methods are being followed?


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: Last year I described to the committee rather in detail just what is done under this vote. The system is that selected personnel are given special courses in physical training and cadet drill. Then they go to the Royal Military college, where further selections are made from those who have been

trained in the districts and further courses given. Then they are loaned to the various provincial governments and are sent to the normal schools, where they give those taking the normal course training in physical culture. That has been the system under which the physical training and cadet drill have been given. Then if there are those in the normal schools or in the districts who desire cadet training, a special course is established for them at district headquarters and they are given that training *which is necessary to equip teachers who desire to take up cadet work, and these teachers carry on that work in their various schools.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: When we bring up any other thing pertaining to the field of education in this house we are always told that education is under the jurisdiction of the provinces, and that the Dominion Government must not interfere. How does the Minister of National Defence account for the fact that his is the only department which has anything to say about education in the different provinces?


James Layton Ralston: I think my hon. friend is under a misapprehension, or else she did not listen to my explanation last year. No cadet training is carried on without the consent of the provincial authorities; all we do is provide a fund for training teachers, if the provincial authorities desire such training.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Then in the opinion of the minister there would be nothing to prevent the Dominion government from teaching peace through the schools as aggressively as we now teach cadet training?


James Layton Ralston: I repudiate the soft impeachment as to aggression; I am merely stating what we do. We provide this fund for the training of teachers who desire to take it, who take up that work in their schools where it is desired. There is nothing at all to prevent the establishment of some special chair for teaching peace, and it seems to me that what the federal government are doing right along, for instance in connection with those films which were referred to a few moments ago, is inculcating in the youth of our land a love of Canada and an appreciation of the activities of this country, which my hon. friend herself has mentioned. That is being done by the federal government. I have no doubt that if hon. members searched their minds they could remember other ways in which the federal authorities are indirectly assisting in connection with education in the schools.

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Agnes Campbell Macphail: But woulld you not call it aggression when the instructors are specially trained and specially paid by the government, and when uniforms, rifles and other equipment are supplied?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend may come to any conclusion she wishes; I am simply stating what is done, leaving myself in the judgment of the committee and of the country as to whether or not it is aggressive. I say it is a perfectly proper and laudable thing for this government to provide such a fund for these provinces which desire this training to be carried on. No teacher is compelled to take up this work; no school is compelled to accept it. I can think of two schools in Manitoba, and there are many others, where the teachers who are directors of physical culture were trained by our instructors but where no cadet training is being carried on.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: If the teachers in the various schools who give cadet training were not specially paid by the department and if their training were not provided out of the public funds, in the opinion of the minister would not that do something to lessen the demand of the provinces for cadet training?


James Layton Ralston: I never was a teacher and I do not know what the attraction would be; I would leave that to my hon. friend to answer. I respectfully suggest that she should know whether or not a teacher would be attracted by what is paid in connection with this work, and I think I should leave it there.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I feel that I cannot let this vote go without saying something about it; reasons may be given why we should talk peace while we are increasing our military estimates and with those reasons the house may agree, but in connection with this vote I do not think any reasonable person can agree with the reasons given. Each year I have made a speech on this question and I am sure the house is very tired of hearing me talk about it. However, it seems to me that my opinions have been very well expressed by Rennie Smith, a member of the British house, so to begin with I will just put it in his words:
We have a right to safeguard our public education from the blight of a military state. We have a duty to protect our educational institutions from the encroachments of a zealous war office.
I believe that word "zealous" would also apply to this department.
It is in the schools, in the shaping of young minds, that the foundations of wars are laid.
I do not think that is putting it too strongly, and I do believe that the teaching of youngsters that the way to settle international disputes is to resort to war absolutely prevents them from thinking of any other way out. It seems to me a contradiction in terms and a hypocritical position for this or any other government to give lip service to peace while aggressively pushing the military machine into the schools of the country. The two things do not agree at all.
I had a very interesting debate with Major General MacBrien, former chief of the general staff, in Montreal; he was upholding cadet training in schools, and he took the ground that it was good physical training, that it was good discipline, that it brought security and that it is human nature to fight. Those were the grounds on which he debated, and wherever you hear this question discussed those points are brought up. I do not think any one of the four contentions is sound, and I am going to take just a little time to go rapidly through the same notes which I used on that occasion, but at much less length.
I would like to say that I had a most enjoyable time, and I wish we could have this discussion repeated about a dozen times throughout Canada. The purpose of education is to draw out the latent powers of the child or the adult who is being educated; to develop the initiative of that person, to develop his full rounded powers and to help him to fit himself to the community in which he lives and to render the best possible service. It seems to me that cadet training does not meet that definition of education. Military training subordinates the will of the individual and kills initiative, rather than developing it. I think that is very well expressed in the poem:
Tbeir's not to reason why,
Their's blit to do and die:
And let us hope there will not be any more die. In military training the individual cannot select what he is to do, and do it in the way he thinks best. If he is to become efficient he must become machine-like, and the result is that instead of raising a generation of youth who will shape society by their thoughts, they are shaped to the thought of existing society, which is very bad for both the child and society.


James Layton Ralston: Is my hon. friend quoting?


Agnes Campbell Macphail: No, but I will now quote from John Stuart Mill, who says that all attempts by the state to bias the conclusions of its subjects on disputed points are evil.

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There is no doubt at all that the Department of National Defence is trying to bias the opinion of people on a disputed point through cadet training. In Canada we are divided into two schools of thought on how to gain security, but the department is not .putting forward the two ways of getting security; they are only putting forward one. They are putting forward military training, military preparedness, the establishment of a military machine which can be turned against our enemies. They are trying to bias the minds of growing children on a disputed point, and a very important point too.
We now come to the question of physical training. It is very true that everyone needs physical training; whether boy or girl, youth or adult, physical training is needed to keep us fit. Military training alone is not good physical training, but in the past a great deal of what is purely physical training has been taken over by the military. During the war physical training occupied a great deal of the soldier's time, it being needed in order to keep him fit. I do not think military training appeals to the cadets; if we could give them the choice I believe they would take straight physical exercises, track work or work in the gymnasium; they would prefer that to military training. My conversations with many people would lead me to believe that to be true.
About a year and a half ago a survey was made in British Columbia by two educational experts, Dr. Putman of Ottawa and Dr. Weir of the university of British Columbia. They made an investigation, not only on this aspect of it but on many others, and in their report they said this:
We take strong exception to the plan of having any part of this work done by militia officers, who naturally give it a military bent.
And they say again:
We think the schools -would suffer no real loss if every vestige of military training were eliminated from the school program.
As was pointed out to me in the debate in Montreal, the report of this committee was not agreeable, and a second committee was sent out which came in and made an opposite report. This looks to me as though it seemed very important to certain people that military training should not be discredited in the minds of the people of Canada.
There are many countries that have thrown over military training for schoolboys, after a trial of some ten or fifteen years, believing that it was not good for the boys either physically or mentally. France is one of the outstanding examples of this.
	.
I have always contended, and I feel I am right in saying that constant military training does something to the mind of the growing youth. It is not only that his body is trained into military actions, but his mind becomes a military mind, although he may be unconscious of it. When the time comes for a decision to be made as to how a national or international situation should be solved, people who have been trained along military lines quite naturally-I am certainly not blaming them-think of this particular method of settling disputes. I think enough was said the other day on the general subject of military training as a method of settling disputes, and it need not be gone into again. Even the daily newspapers are seeing that it is time we found some new way of settling disputes, and an editorial in the Toronto Daily Star of November 11, 1927, said:
Every reasoning creature must perceive that the true interests of the race are bound up in the efforts of those who seek to organize internationally against the recurrence of war and for the stamping out of such small outbreaks of it as cannot be foreseen and prevented.
I could go on and on but I do not wish to keep an impatient house. I could quote from prominent world authorities and splendid writers wiho agree that if war served a purpose for humanity at one time it is now finished, and it is time we found some other way of settling our disputes. But if our Department of National Defence is going to take the boys in our schools throughout Canada, more and more of them as the years go by, and train them to this one way of settling disputes, how in the -world are we going to find any other way? It is for that reason that I am so strongly opposed to this particular vote. Other parts of the militan' estimates are not agreeable to me; .there are many people in Canada to whom they are agreeable, but I think the majority of the people in Canada are against this vote. I believe that if we could get their opinion on the matter they would ask the government to keep their hands off the schools. Let them work through any other agency they like, work with people who are full grown and who can make their own judgments. Children are not always in position to do this, and I think it is utterly unfair to use them, because that is what we are doing, and to make them only instruments in the hands of people who want to keep on settling international disputes by the method known as war.
I will not speak at any greater length for the moment, but before sitting down I would

like to move, seconded by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woods-worth) :
That item 85 be reduced by the sum of $499, 999.


James Layton Ralston: I would like to indicate
to the hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail) that I am not impatient at all She has a perfect right, and those whom she represents have a perfect right to express their views, and I want to meet them if I can. The hon. member has expressed herself with regard to a number of matters which have already been discussed, but there is just one point I want to mention. She has an idea that the cadet training, the physical training, or whatever is done in the schools, has some sort of bad effect on tile mentality of the boys who undergo it. I want to point out to her only this, and it seems to me it is a complete answer to all that is said along that line-if military training is such that it teaches girls, boys and young men always to go into a military life and to become militaristic, that is to put military things and the militaristic spirit above the ordinary things of commercial and social life, how is it that of the boys who go through the Royal Military college at Kingston and who there get as complete a training as young men can in military matters while they are in the formative stage in life, something less than ten per -cent go into military life, while the rest of them go into business, commerce, the arts and sciences and all the other occupations which go to make up our nation's activities? It is also found, however, that when the time comes that the country must defend itself, these same young men are equipped and ready and above eighty-five per -cent of the men who went through the Royal Military college went overseas in the- great war. That assists me in coming to a conclusion and it ought to convince my hon. friends and others who have an idea that military training creates a military mentality. The situation is quite the reverse. It teaches these young men to be good citizens; that there is something to live for in this country; that while we talk about our natural resources, our opportunities and the many things which are good in Canadian life, those things are good enough to defend and when the call comes, they are ready to defend them. If my hon. friend will look up the records of many men not only in this country but in England as well, she will find that the strongest advocates of peace have had their share of military training and on that account they have not had their peaceful instincts stultified, but they have been ready all the more to advocate peace,
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just as the hon. member for West Calgary (Mr. Adshead) suggests, because they have had the experience of military training and they know something about the seriousness of war.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Will the minister make it ciear that this question of cadet training is perfectly optional, first, by the provinces, second, by the schools and, lastly, by the parents themselves? Has Alberta asked the government for military training in that province? I rather think it has. Another point 1 took up with the Minister of National Defence last year was this. Some complaints were sent in that in a school where a military gentleman was training the scholars, those who did not see fit to take military training were ridiculed, held up to scorn by the military officer. I could not substantiate that myself, although there was some evidence in that respect, but I should like the minister to give his opinion, so that it may go on Hansajrd, that military training is quite optional just in the same way as a scholar can choose between taking up science or languages, and that a boy will not be taunted because he does not choose military training any more than if he chooses to take up science in place of languages.


Mr RALSTON:: I have before me the application for cadet corps, and I can assure my hon. f-riend that the roll which is sen-t forward with the application contains the signatures of boys who desire to go into the corps, and that it is certified to- be signed with the approval of the parents or guardians. In the second place the application itself is to be signed by the minister or superintendent of education of the province or by the chairman of the board of education. Third, with regard to Alberta, I have under my hand the agreement with regard to that province just as I have the agreements with regard to the other provinces. Fourth, with regard to the matter of any scorn or ridicule or anything of that sort, I can assure my hon. friend, as I assured him at the time, that if such is the case it is absolutely contrary to instructions and ordere. I would be only too glad if he wo-uld give -me any instance in which that occurs and I would see ^ that it was followed up -and that disciplinary action was taken.
Amendment (Miss Macphail) negatived.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Manufacturing establishments, $587,000.
Robert Gardiner: Will the minister explain the increase?


James Layton Ralston: I think I explained the
other night, in running over the items, that



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the increase is largely due to this, that, at the Dominion arsenal at Quebec which is the only manufacturing establishment we have in Canada, we are endeavouring to manufacture sufficient ammunition for use during the training period so that whatever reserve there is will not be depleted.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What proportion of the supply of small arms ammunition is manufactured in the Dominion's own manufacturing establishment?


James Layton Ralston: All the small arms ammunition is manufactured at Quebec.


William Thomas Lucas: Does this refer only to ammunition that is manufactured?


James Layton Ralston: Yes, at the Dominion
arsenal at Quebec. There is a small amount of some $9,000 for care of an arsenal which was established at Lindsay during the war. That is still being retained but it is not being operated.


William Thomas Lucas: We are not manufacturing
any rifles at the present time?


James Layton Ralston: No.


William Thomas Lucas: What class of rifle are the
troops using?


James Layton Ralston: The issue rifles are the
Lee-Enfield rifles.


Robert Gardiner: Where are they secured?


James Layton Ralston: We are not getting any
new ones. They are the rifles we had over after the war.


William Thomas Lucas: I understand we had a large quantity of Ross rifles during the war.


James Layton Ralston: We have them.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Are you manufacturing
any poison gas?


James Layton Ralston: None.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Does the minister not think in the interest of Canada the department should be manufacturing poison gases? What good are rifles going to be against poison gas? Is Canada not getting some poison gas ready?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend the other
night attempted to tell us how the department should be carried on in this respect and she remarked that what was being done was not to any purpose. I only want to say to her and to the rest of the committee that we are

endeavouring not to attempt experimental Work but to carry on with the fundamentals in connection with military training. The matter of gas is not engaging the attention of the department at all, except that I think we have on hand one or two thousand gas respirators which we use for anti-gas training.


William Thomas Lucas: Is it possible for the public
to secure any of these Ross rifles for sporting purposes?


James Layton Ralston: No. I have been approched a great many times in regard to that.


George Reginald Geary: Are they issued for sharpshooting, for target practice at all?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend knows
that they are good for target practice, and were used a good deal by snipers, and he also knows that they did not work well as service rifles


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Non-permanent active militia, $2,315,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: What is the explanation
of the increase?


James Layton Ralston: I dealt with this briefly
the other night. The increase in the estimate is to provide for an average of twelve days training at camp. Previous to the war, the average number of days training was sixteen days. Nine days training hardly provides one week at camp. Not very much can be done on the first day and the last day and you have not much left in the way of training for officers; so it was suggested-and I think it is in the interests of economy, and will result in better training, and in the long run save money-that we should provide for a greater number of days at camp. As the committee may know, the city units train largely at local headquarters. Perhaps they have three or four days at camp, and the rest of the training at local headquarters. This is more for rural units than for city units.


Robert Gardiner: In view of the new
methods of warfare that are likely to prevail in any future wars, does the minister really think that this militia training is of any value at all, even against invasion?


James Layton Ralston: The principles of infantry and artillery training I think are just as sound now as they ever were. My hon. friend will find that the advance and the change which is being made in connection with training both in England and the United States is largely along the line of the mechanization of transport, but you have to have artillery

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training just the same, no matter how you haul the gun, whether by horse, motor, or some special tractor devise. Of course tanks are being experimented with, at very great expense, and as my hon. friend knows, the tanks were an invention of the last war. I do think that all we can hope to do is to train along fundamental lines so far as infantry, artillery and cavalry training is concerned, and then be prepared, if such an untoward event should come about that we are at war, to utilize the specialists in connection with tank warfare and mechanization and things of that kind; because the last war showed us that if people understand the fundamentals they can pretty easily adapt themselves to the new species of transport and the new species of armament. .


John Wesley Edwards: How many men will be in training at camp this year.


James Layton Ralston: The whole training will
be about 33,000.


John Wesley Edwards: How does
that compare with last year?


James Layton Ralston: It is the same.


Leslie Gordon Bell: In view of our new status as a nation, it does not seem surprising that the militia estimates should be increased. When the leader of the Progressive party spoke regarding our protection in case of future wars, I thought possibly the government would take into consideration the splendid showing made by Canadians in the last war as air pilots. Canada supplied practically 60 per cent of the air pilots overseas, and I thought possibly the government would be making some provision for the development of an aerial service because of the part that air forces will play in future wars. It is rather surprising that at the present time we have practically no aerodromes, and no provision made in that respect. All of us know the part played _ by aeroplanes in the last war, and as I said before, the Canadians excelled as air pilots.
It is rather amusing to hear the different speeches in this house regarding war. We listen patiently to hon. members speaking of war, but when did Canada ever become a warlike nation? We have never entered into a war unless it was practically forced1 upon us, and yet members rise in the house and make these long orations. The hon. member for West Calgary congratulates the government for being a peaceful government, and the hon. member for Southeast Grey accuses the government of spending great amounts
on military training and of being a warlike government. I would suggest that the great peace advocates in this house should have a conference among themselves and determine what is the actual status of the government in regard to war, and what is the great cause of these periodical outbursts on the subject of peace.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Royal Military College, $375,000.
James Shaver Woodsworth: What is the number of instructors on this Staff, and what is the cost of the class instructors?


James Layton Ralston: There are sixteen instructors, and the total cost is $57,682.50.


James Shaver Woodsworth: What is the regular pay and allowances of the military instructors?


James Layton Ralston: The pay and allowances are as follows:
Commandant	$ 6,000 00
General staff officer I senior professor	;.	5,045	00General staff officer 1	
4,745	00General staff officer II	
4,051	50Staff adjutant	
3,000	00Quartermaster	
3,759	50Paymaster	
3,540	50Engineer officer	
3,759	50Medical officer	
2,100	00Nursing sister	
2*263	00Professor of tactics	
4,380	00Associate professor of artillery..	..	3,540	50Instructor military engineering..	..	3,212	50Instructor of tactics	
3,066	00Physical and weapon training.. ..	2,920	00Riding master	
2,299	50Total number 16-pay and allowances	$57,682 50


James Shaver Woodsworth: I take it that there are over 100 instructors altogether; is thal correct?


James Layton Ralston: Not instructors.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Instructors and the military staff.


James Layton Ralston: There are 59 and 16- 75 altogether, the military superior staff and a subordinate staff. Of course, my hon. friend understands that many of the subordinate staff are not instructors.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I want to get at the total number to keep up the establishment.


James Layton Ralston: Let us take them all, to be fair. The total number of the staff of the college is 143. Of that number 75 are military -about 50 per cent.


James Shaver Woodsworth: And the total cost of the military and civilian staffs is?
Supply-National Dejence


James Layton Ralston: In rough figures, $240,000.


James Shaver Woodsworth: How many graduates have you each year?


James Layton Ralston: The number runs from 30 to 50.
Mr. WOODtSWORTH: Someone has given me a memorandum,-I have not checked it- that from 1880 to 1927 there were 883 graduates.


James Layton Ralston: The first graduating class was in 1880. Up to November 1918 the number of candidates taken on the strength was 1,493. The number registered at the college to date is 2,017.


James Shaver Woodsworth: But the graduates?


James Layton Ralston: That is, the total to date from 1880?	!


James Shaver Woodsworth: Yes.


James Layton Ralston: I am afraid I cannot give my hon. friend the figure.


James Shaver Woodsworth: If I have it right, the figure is 883 up to 1927, or only about 20 a year.


James Layton Ralston: I will give my hon. friend a full statement for each year. It is not a thing that there can be any doubt about.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Quite so. If each
year the enrollment is about 200, and the actual graduating class is only about 20, the expenditure is very heavy.


James Layton Ralston: But we are training others besides those who graduate. The cost-I think I gave it to the committee when we were discussing the amendment to the Royal Military College Act earlier in the session-my recollection is between $1,400 and $1,500 per student.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The minister stated a little while ago that "only 10 per cent of the cadets took up the military profession.


James Layton Ralston: I said that was the percentage for the last few years.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Of that ten per cent how many remained in Canada?


James Layton Ralston: This year ten took commissions in Canada; none took commissions in the British army.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is it true that in the past quite a number have accepted commissions in the imperial army?


James Layton Ralston: I have not that at hand. Will my hon. friend let me give him the in-

formation later? Would he like it for the last three or four years?


James Shaver Woodsworth: Yes. Just one other question. From the standpoint of the Canadian military establishment, is it a good thing to spend this large sum in educating so small a number of people, and then have the most proficient of them accept commissions in the imperial army?


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend is wrong
in thinking that a large proportion of them do accept commissions in the imperial army.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I said the most proficient.


James Layton Ralston: I do not admit that, and I do not think my hon. friend would wish to so understand it. Some of the boys desire to go into the imperial army. As my hon. friend knows, with a force of only 3,300 men we have not many commissions to offer. Some who care for military life take commissions in the imperial army, but I do not think that proves they are the most proficient.


James Shaver Woodsworth: But I was wondering whether it is a good thing to spend this enormous sum in educating these boys and then have a number of them-we will not say whether they are the most proficient or not- go over to the old land to find a career.


James Layton Ralston: If there was a very large number out of the total enrollment I presume my hon, friend's objection might hold, but from the point of view of Canada I do not think there can be any objection with respect to the few who take imperial commissions. Ninety per cent of these boys enter civilian life and do not follow a military career.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Have the students of
the Royal Military college any more advantages in the way of lower railway fares or free equipment than the students in any other college throughout Canada? If so, what are they?


James Layton Ralston: As was said, they put up what amounts to something like $400 a year.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: But do they pay their railway fares to and from home?


James Layton Ralston: Coming to the school to enroll and returning home When they graduate
they are given their railway fare.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: And are the horses and uniforms provided by the state?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.

Supply-National Defence


Miss MAC PH  AIL@: Rather generous, don't you think?


James Layton Ralston: They pay for their uniforms. The horses are provided for the students.


George Reginald Geary: In corresponding institutions
in the United States the student pays nothing; he is paid.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I do not care what they do in the United States. The only fair comparison to make is between students in other colleges of Canada and those at the Royal Military college. Because they do more in other countries to encourage the military training of boys is no justification for doing it here.


James Layton Ralston: I do not think my hon. friend gives sufficient consideration to the fact that the Royal Military college is open to every Canadian boy, no matter whether he is rich or poor. As was very properly said soon after the opening of this session: merit counts; a boy gets in on merit alone.


Arthur Edward Ross: There is a little
more to be considered in connection with the military college than has been brought out. Every cadet has to be an officer after he has graduated; he has to be connected with some unit in Canada. He is on the reserve after that. At present some of them are training for the air force; five have to take a three year course each year for air force in the civilian service. In addition to that there is also provided what is known as the long course training for officers. That expenditure goes on the military college but it is really an expenditure in connection with staff work. As regards the imperial army, there is an opening there for the very beat engineers in the world, and every Canadian is proud of the position held by Girouard in South Africa, who was the principal officer there, he having made possible all the bridge work. These men are not always looking after military work; railways and other undertakings are under their advisement. So that in a great many ways this college is providing for the advancement of civilian life. I do not think there is any establishment that has advertised the name of Canada as much as this college, and I would suggest to the minister, in view of the motion pictures which are exhibited in this country, such the The Great Parade, and which are nothing but an advertisement for the school at West Point in the United States, that it would be much better for Canada to advertise its own school. These boys immediately
on graduating from military college take up scientific work in chemistry, engineering and so forth, and they carry their talent into all civilian activities in Canada. But they are the great reservist force of the Dominion.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Does the minister think it would be necessary to increase the army in order that, all men graduating from the college who wish to take up a military career may have an opportunity? Surely you should not hold down the Canadian boys who want to go in for a military career? Had you not better consider increasing the force?


James Layton Ralston: I will consider the suggestion if my hon. friend tells me she will vote for it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Royal Canadian Air Force-all expenses in connection with the general maintenance and training of the Royal Canadian Air Force, and the auxiliary and reserve air force, including training personnel for civil air operations, $1,669,694.
William Irvine: Will the minister make clear to the committee the position of the men serving in the Air Force? Are they entitled to pensions at the expiration of their service and are they protected in case of accident in the air? If so, what is the nature of the protection?


James Layton Ralston: There are two situations to be considered, one which presents itself when the particular airman is still in the employ of the department, and the other after he is discharged. The disabilities pension act which was the subject of an amendment this session-I am referring to the Pensions Act covering the military and naval service as well-applies to airmen and others who are discharged, or to their dependents if the man dies from any cause attributable to service. They get the same pension as those who served in the permanent force. In addition to that we have under the pay and allowance regulation's, sections 298 to 308. provided for compensation and for treatment of those who have suffered injury, disease or illness arising from a cause incident to air force service. Provision has also been made with respect to those of civilian occupation in other branches of the government service who may be accompanying airmen on service. They are provided for by order in council which has been passed under the ail board legislation. They are well covered both by the Pensions Act and by the pay and allowance regulations.
Supply-National Defence

M!r. WOODSWORTH: Why is it necessary to have the civil air force under the National Defence department?


James Layton Ralston: One might as well question a shoemaker with regard to the advisability of cobbling shoes.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am asking a
serious question.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend must not take offence at the remark; I merely wished to imply that it was not fair for him to expect a disinterested answer from me because I happen to preside over the Air force as well as the Defence department. However, I will state the facts and my hon. friend may draw his own conclusion. The air services in Canada were established first under the air board and were then taken over by the Department of National Defence. At their inception they had to do particularly with military air service, but it was soon found that the aviation service could well be utilized in connection with a number of government activities. For two or three years the air force did that work. Last year the government decided that there should be a straight division between military and civil government operations and so it was that on July 1 we set up in the Department of National Defence a separate organization in this regard. Most of the personnel are still in the air force. There is a demand in Canada, which we cannot supply, for aviators, and these men are constantly being asked by commercial companies to enter their employ. I can assure my hon. friend that we are making the transition as fast as we can in an endeavour to establish a purely civilian organization. Already the department of the controller of civil aviation is under the Civil Service Commission, and positions are being filled entirely by civilian personnel.


Jean-François Pouliot: I wish to bring to the attention of the minister a serious accident that occurred the other day.


James Layton Ralston: My hon. friend can take it up on the next vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the house took recess.
After Recess
The house resumed at eight o'clock.


[Stage Direction]
Mr. M. F. HEPBURN (West Elgin) moved the third reading of Bill No. 58, to incorporate the London and Port Burwell Railway Company.
Mr. SPEAKER:: In amendment the hon.
member for Norfolk-Elgin (Mr. Taylor) moves:
That the following be inserted as clause 4:
"The capital stock of the company shall be five hundred thousand dollars."


Mr. J. F. WHITE (London):: I rise to a
point of order in connection with the amendment. I would refer Your Honour to Bour-inot, fourth edition, page 618, where the following appears:
On the third reading in the Commons no amendment may be made except of a verbal nature; and, if it is wished to make any material change, the bill must be referred back to committee of the whole.
Then further up on the same page I find the following:
It is the correct course, in all cases where it is necessary to make material amendments, to refer the bill back to the select committee, to which it had been previously sent, instead of considering the proposed changes in committees of the whole.
It seems to me that the proposed amendment is a very material change in the bill. This section was struck out in committee when it was considered on May 8, I think, and it is the custom of this house to refer such questions back to the committee which considered the bill, which in this case would be the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. This practice was followed on May 31, when the hon. member for North Battleford (Mr. McIntosh) moved an amendment to the final report of the committee on industrial and international relations; that report was referred back to the committee with instructions to do so and so, and it seems to me that that is the proper course to pursue in this case.


Hewitt Bostock: Does any other hon.
member desire to speak on the point of order? The hon. member's point would be well taken if we were under the old rules, but last year we amended the rules of the

London and Port Burwell Railway
house, and I would refer my hon. friend to standing order 113:
No important amendment may be proposed to any private bill, in a committee of the whole house, or at the third reading of the bill, unless one day's notice of the same has been given.
The amendment may or may not be referred back to the committee. It is permissible, not compulsory. I am informed by the clerk of the house that notice was given some days ago; therefore the amendment is in order and I so rule. The question is on the amendment.
Amendment (Mr. Taylor) agreed to on division.


John Franklin White: I protest, Mr. Speaker; I was on my feet before the motion was put.


Hewitt Bostock: But the hon. gentleman
had already spoken.


John Franklin White: Only on the
point of order.


Hewitt Bostock: So I put the question.


John Franklin White: I spoke on the point of order.


Hewitt Bostock: I would be very much
afraid that if I allowed the hon. gentleman to speak a second time on the point of order after it had been ruled out, it would look like filibustering, although I am sure the hon. gentleman does not mean to do that.


John Franklin White: I hardly think
I can be charged with that.


Hewitt Bostock: Far be it from my mind to charge the hon. member with lacking in parliamentary dignity or committing any wrong. I will simply state that the hon. gentleman made his point and I ruled on the point of order after having asked if any other hon. members desired to speak. No one speaking, I ruled on the point of order and immediately put the question.


Mr CHURCH:: Mr. Speaker, I have an amendment.


Mr. HEPBURN:: I desire to move that the question be now put.


Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Toronto Northwest):: I rise to a point of order. I wish to direct attention to the fact that on May 16 I gave notice that on the third reading of this bill I would move the six months hoist.. That
motion has precedence on the third reading of a bill. I was ready to debate the question a few moments ago, before the hon. member for West Elgin rose. I would also call attention to the fact that I was on my feet before the hon. member for West Elgin spoke.


Charles Avery Dunning: Just on the .point of order, Mr. Speaker, might I call your attention to the fact that in connection with another bill a few nights ago the previous question was moved after notices of amendments had been given. It happened that the hon. member rising to move the previous question, I think it was the hon. member for Frontenac-Adding-ton, caught your eye while the hon. member who had given notice of his amendment did not do so, and in consequence his amendment was barred.


Hewitt Bostock: I was under the impression that there was only the one amendment which has been carried; I did not know there was a second amendment. May I remind the house that there is an unwritten rule that before putting the question the Speaker must take up all the amendments relating to the bill. See May, thirteenth edition, page 347.
I have just been informed that another amendment appears on the order paper, and therefore it is my duty to put that amendment. Mr. Church moves:
That bill No. 58, to incorporate the London and Port Burwell Railway Company, be not now read a third time, but that it be read this day six months.


Thomas Langton Church: No doubt the hon. gentlemen on the front benches do not like to see such an amendment brought in to an important public bill which affects the people of western Ontario. A few of the hon. gentlemen on the front benches in connection with this and other private bills are nearly "all front and bench" and no public rights-from wha-t I have heard and seen on private bills legislation in this chamber for the past month. We have asked the Minister of Railways and the government for a statement of their policy on this particular bill, which affects the territory around St. Thomas. I spoke in the St. Thomas city hall with the late Sir Adam Beck in connection with a hydro radial to run from lake Erie through St. Thomas, the counties of Perth, Elgin and Middlesex, and on to Tillsonburg. The people of St. Thomas carried the by-law at that time by ten to one, and if was also carried in Port Burwell. The late Sir Adam Beck proposed to build a system of hydro radials in western Ontario through the counties of Middlesex
3768	COMMONS
London and Port Burwell Railway
and Elgin and other counties, which would have relieved this parliament of the cost of such a railway as this. The people carried the by-laws in every municipality. Where is the head of the national railways? He is the gentleman that has crucified the whole thousand miles of hydro radials in Toronto, London and St. Thomas and the Niagara district. Sir Adam's scheme of hydro radials would have been just as successful as his light and power scheme proved to be, and would have acted as a feeder to the whole Canadian National Railway system. I was in the county of Middlesex and the county of Elgin with my late leader, and we carried all our light and power by-laws by 100 to 1, and we carried the radial by-laws by a large majority. These radials would have acted as feeders to the main line of the Canadian National, to bring dairy products, vegetables, and agricultural products of all kinds to the main line. The light and power proposition has done wonders for the western part of Ontario, and the hydro radials would have done just as much.
Sir Adam Beck took an old railway, the Pere Marquette, he electrified it from the city of London, through St. Thomas down to Port Stanley, and this road, about 26 miles in all, has conferred a great boon on the citzens of the cities of London and St. Thomas and the other municipalities in that district. Now this bill 58 will more or less parallel the London and Port Stanley-it serves much of the same territory, which further is Canadian National exclusive territory.
A petition is presented by private people, through the medium of bill No. 58, and we must see who these people are. There is Mr. Lockrow of the city of Birmingham in the state of Michigan, attorney at law and Robert L. Harp of the city of Detroit. He will act as and will be a very happy harp for Sir Henry Thornton, the crucifier of the hydro radials. A thousand miles of road were to be 'built under Sir Adam's hydro radial scheme, representing 268 Ontario municipalities that had carried these 'bylaws, not only in the Toronto district, but in the Niagara-London, St. Thomas and Port Burwell districts. These hydro by-laws were carried, and we would have had a line from Port Burwell on the north shore of lake Erie to the city of London, St. Thomas and Listowel and Tillsonburg. Sir Henry Thornton attended the railway committee while this, bill was up and he did not oppose this bill 58, but a few years ago he opposed the hydro radial scheme, which had been passed by the ratepayers of 
the municipalities from Port Burwell, right up through St. Thomas and down to the town of Tillsonburg. It is a happy coincidence that I have here the evidence regarding as to these hydro radials, taken before the railways and shipping committee in 1924 and 1925, and Sir Henry was asked why he opposed the hydro radials. He sent a wire to Toronto opposing the' hydro radials and said he wanted the entire territory and would electrify the Grand Trunk line to the falls, to Montreal and elsewhere, which was never done.
The people in these municipalities have put up their bonds to build these hydro radials in the counties of Elgin and Middlesex, to build the London and Port Stanley Railway. These bonds have been guaranteed by the province of Ontario, and it is now proposed to make a scrap of paper out of these securities and allow a new private road to invade their territory. These people come along and say, "We will scrap all this territory; we will scrap all these bonds, and destroy the life work of Sir Adam Beck in the county of Middlesex and Elgin." Sir Adam Beck did more for the counties of Elgin and Middlesex and western Ontario than a thousand Sir Henry Thorntons.
Where was he when this bill was before the railway committee? He was asked what his views were regarding a line going through these counties, and he replied that he had no interest in this railway (Bill 58). Of course he had no interest in this railway. I can remember the time when it was estimated that a third of a million dollars was put up to defeat Sir Adam Beck and hydro radials in Toronto by the electric ring. I was with my late leader in the counties of Elgin and Middlesex when we launched the investment of the municipalities in the London and Port Stanley Railway. It is a fine road and a shining example of what the public ownership of radials would have done for the people generally in radials all over the province of Ontario. I regret to say that my late leader was driven to the wall, and some of these American corporations have found western Ontario now a very happy hunting ground now owing to the fact that we have as head of the National railways a gentleman who does not believe in public ownership. This man has fought hydro radial by-laws in the city of Toronto, and in the counties of Elgin and Middlesex, in season and out of season, and helped destroy the hydro radials. He says he is not interested in these radial by-laws. Of course he is not interested in the radial by-laws; he is only giving them

London and Port Burwell Railway
the same kind of bunkum which he gave to the taxpayers in Toronto by wire during the radial election. Sir Henry Thornton was asked in the committee on railways and shipping what his hostility was to the scheme of Sir Adam Beck to build a thousand miles of hydro radials in the province of Ontario. He was asked what his views were, and he said that if he had to do it over again he would never have sent the telegram he did on the eve of I he presentment of the hydro radial by-law to the taxpayers of Toronto.
We have to go back to history to get the chronological order of this thing. The hydro by-law was defeated in the city of Toronto, and we can see to-day in Michigan, New York, New Jersey and Indiana what a system of hydro radials has done there, and would have done here for the counties of Elgin and Middlesex and western part of Ontario if adopted. Many of these cities and towns are suffering from rural depopulation. There is under-production; the farmers are not able to get their crops to the market and in many cases farm produce is suffering from lack of transportation. In many counties farms are untilled. Why? Because of lack of transportation facilities and the lack of electric hydro radials.
Sir Adam Beck, in addressing the people of the district covered by Bill No. 58, pointed out that if we had a system of hydro radials built by the municipalities it would solve the great problem of under-production in Ontario. He told them that they would haul the farmer's crop to the market; that they would multiply the value of every farm in Middlesex, Elgin and other Ontario counties by two, three or four, as has been done in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, New York and New Jersey. What built up these five states across the border? Their system of hydro radials. When Sir Henry Thornton took over the presidency of the Canadian National, by-laws had been passed in the various municipalities approving the hydro radial system. I was over the whole right of way of this particular road and every bylaw was carried. I cannot speak for Tillson-burg, because I do not remember the by-law there, but I remember being in the county of Elgin and the city of St. Thomas. This is one of the many contracts between the entire 262 municipalities. Port Burwell, the city of St. Thomas, the city of London, and the town of TiHsonburg are in the contract. These contracts passed the ratepayers. The bydaw was prepared by the municipalities; it was endorsed by the hydro-electric commission; it was sent to the people and on municipal voting day the ballot boxes were opened. Those who were ratepayers in these municipalities of western Ontario which enjoy cheap light and power went into the polls and by large majorities all the municipalities covered by this particular bill 58 preferred a hydro radial system, acting as a feeder for the old Grand Trunk, affiliated and connected with it. Many of these municipalities to-day, only for the work of Sir Henry Thornton, would be linked up with the London and Port Stanley railway, and with the great hydro trunk line between Toronto, Hamilton and the city of Windsor, with this particular right of way along the north shore of lake Erie and all the branch lines operating in western Ontario as a net work conneoting up in western Ontario the rural municipalities, the suburban municipalities and the urban municipalities and by a vast trunk line extending over to Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Hamilton and Toronto and not by duplication but taking existing old Grand Trunk dilapidated lines in western Ontario and electrifying them and acting as part and parcel of the old Grand Trunk.
These by-laws in the various municipalities were carried under Sir Adam Beck's auspices, some of them by a hundred to one, some by ten to one, some by five to one and some by three to one. Everything was going along lovely for the adoption of a system of hydro radials in western Ontario and in the Niagara district around lake Erie and lake Ontario, when like a bolt out the blue there descended upon those municipalities a gentleman by the name of Sir Henry Thornton, who is supposed to be president of the Canadian National. The municipalities were to construct these railways themselves, or take over old dilapidated Grand Trunk lines; they were to act as feeders for the old bankrupt Grand Trunk in western Ontario. This question was discussed in the house the oither night by the Minister of Railways, and I have a great respect for him. I differ with him now; I will differ with him many times in the future, but I know that he is sincere in his belief. I have always found him sincere in what he says, but I have not found the same sincerity in regard to the president of the Canadian National. He fought Sir Adam Beck in season and out of season. When this hydro radial by-law was brought up in Toronto he sent a wire to the minister stating that he was going to electrify the whole Grand Trunk from Toronto to Montreal; that he was going to electrify the road which passes through the municipalities from Toronto to Niagara Falls. Another line to be electrified was from Toronto to Barrie and another was the Toronto and Eastern railway from Leaside down to the town of Bowmanville. Now I find that the
3770	COMMONS
London and Port Burwell Railway
whole Toronto and Eastern railway has been tom up by Sir Henry Thornton. I had a return brought down in the house and it showed that the Toronto and Eastern railway, which would have been a hydro radial from Toronto to Bowmanville and Cobourg, a railway which Sir Adam Beak was to electrify was torn up. Sir Henry Thornton did the same thing with the contract for the purchase of the Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto railway which Sir Adam had a contract to purchase. He cancelled it and he did the same thing with the Toronto suburban railway running through the Humber valley to the city of 'Guelph. These three railways belonging to a bankrupt road were to be taken over 'by Sir Adam Beck and the municipalities passed by-laws by a large majority for their acquisition. What happened? After the present government came into office they cancelled the orders in council of the late government and declined to give the hydro radials these three railways which would have been developed and extended under public ownership as free feeders for the Canadian National and have saved the people of Canada all the cost of betterments now spent on these systems.
The Toronto and Eastern railways, for example, which would have acted as a feeder, has been torn up by Sir Henry Thornton. As you pass out of the village of Leaside, what do you see? You see ties torn up, bridges tom up, right of way torn up. Would that we bad on both sides of this house some public-spirited men like my leader, Sir Adam Beck, who was the 'best Conservative we ever had in the province and who was a voting strength to the Conservative party. When the ballot boxes were opened in the municipalities it was found that they gave big majorities to the hydro radial system proposed by Sir Adam Beck.
We have to-day a gentleman who comes to this house and promotes this bill and I charge in the house that these two United States citizens who are connected with this bill are nothing but dummies for the National railways. Some of Sir Henry Thornton's officials were connected with a bridge bill the other day here-a bridge engineer and Grand Trunk Railways brakeman and one of his officials on the railway promoting a bill. To-night this bill is being promoted by a gentleman from Birmingham in the United States of America. He is an attorney-at-law. Of course he is an attomey-at-law. One of the duties of an attorney is to be at law.
[Mr. Church.)
There is another gentleman from Detroit, called Robert Lee Harp. That is a nice-sounding name. He is playing the harp, but the chief harper and the chief fiddler who defeated the hydro radials and to put this bill through is Sir Henry Thornton, the one who destroyed Sir Adam Beck's whole dream of radiaJs in Ontario. There are papers in my own city and in many other parts of the province which have fought for Sir Adam Beck in season and out of season.


Mr. TAYLOR:: I rise to a point of order. The hon. member is not speaking to his motion.


Hewitt Bostock: I think the hon. gentleman should speak with more relevancy to the subject matter. Sir Henry Thornton and the Ontario Hydro Electric Commission have nothing to do with the present bill. I would therefore ask the hon. gentleman to come a little more closely to the question before the house.


Thomas Langton Church: I will, although it is pretty hard, Mr. Speaker, to separate the question of the public Ontario hydro radials from the private bill that is now before us. The territory that is to be covered by the London and Port Burwell Railway Company and this bill is and was hydro radial territory. At the present time the London and Port Stanley Railway Company have this territory in agreement with the county councils of Elgin and Middlesex counties. These are the two counties mainly concerned, except for a small portion of the county of Perth through which this road is to go. I have already dealt with the question of the territory to be served.
Now I come to discuss this proposed line of railway, which in my opinion would parallel the London and Port Stanley road. If I remember rightly, the county council of the county of Elgin and Perth asked to have the hydro radial system extended into these counties. By this bill we would wipe out the London and Port Stanley railway, and launch on this new line of railway. Bill No. 58 received its first reading on March the 6th, and has already been reported. I am moving the six months' hoist, Mr. Speaker, for the reason that I am attacking this bill on grounds of public policy. In the second place, I attack it because this road would invade Canadian National territory which never should be surrendered. The Canadian National railway has already a large deficit, and it is going behind about $8,000,000 in its passenger business, and I say that it should

London and Port Burwell Railway
not give up territory which would serve as a feeder to its main line. This proposed line of railway runs through the counties of Middlesex and Elgin, and virtually parallels the London and Port Stanley road, and if this bill goes through, the London and Port Stanley road might as well close up. For these reasons I think the bill should not be adopted by this house. It is opposed to the rights of the municipalities. The city of St. Thomas is already tied up to a contract with the London and Port Stanley railway, and if this bill goes through it will finish somewhat that contract. The Ontario Hydro Electric Commission has bonds running into the hundreds and thousands of dollars of these various municipalities, and if this bill goes through it would destroy somewhat those securities. It is something that has never been done before.
Who are the Canadians that are connected with this proposed line of railway? They are John H. Teall, gentleman, Donald F. Gibson, barrister-at-law, Frederick A. Ramsay, merchant, all of the town of Tillsonfourg. To please my hon. friend the chairman of the banking and commerce committee, who is in favour of this bill, and for whom I have the utmost regard, as I have also for the promoter of this bill, and for the hon. member from Elgin too, I might be inclined to support the bill, but as a supporter of the Ontario hydro radial system, I cannot do it. I know that these people in the municipalities concerned are behind the scheme of Sir Adam Beck, and I cannot, surrender the views 1 hold after having been connected with the Ontario hydro radial system for twenty-two years.
This work is declared to be for the general advantage of Canada, but not by the widest stretch of the imagination can it be called that. The road is not interprovincial in character; it is not international; it is simply a small provincial railway, which would parallel the London and Port Stanley road, and a federal railway in a mythical sense only.
I understand that an amendment is to be moved in regard to what the capital shall be. They are to issue preferred stock apparently. The head office of the company is to be in the town of Port Burwell, in the county of Elgin, and the annual meeting of the shareholders is to be held on the first Monday of October. It is provided that the number of directors is to be not less than five nor more than nine, and that the company may lay out, construct and operate a railway from Port Burwell on the north shore of lake Erie
to the city of London, passing through the counties of Elgin and Middlesex. For these and other reasons, Mr. Speaker, I move that this bill be not now read a third time, but that it be read a third time this day six months.


Mitchell Frederick Hepburn: I
shall not attempt to reply to the speech of the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr. Church), if I might term it a speech. After eulogizing the late Sir Adam Beck, a gentleman for whom we all have the greatest respect, the hon. gentleman made a speech that had nothing to do with the subject before the house; it covered practically everything from ships of war to Easter eggs. But what I did resent was his assumption that he represented the people of the county of Elgin. I do not think there has been or ever will be a time when they will ask the hon. gentleman to represent their opinions in this house. We all realize that he is obsessed with the idea that the sun rises on the east side of Toronto and sets on the west side.
To show how wide he was of the mark I am going to read a telegram that I received only a few minutes ago from the county council of Elgin, now in session. It reads:
The Elgin county council unanimously passed the following resolution this afternoon:
That this council approve of the bill now before the House of Commons providing for incorporation of the London and Port Burwell Railway Company.
(Signed) K. W. McKay,
County Clerk.
I would like to read also a communication that I have received from the mayor of St. Thomas. My hon. friend from London (Mr. White) had serious doubts in his mind whether the statement I made in the house a few nights ago was accurate or not, and he wrote to the mayor of St. Thomas asking for the attitude of that city in regard to the London and Port Burwell railway. The mayor replied as follows:
Matter referred to in letter left to the discretion of local member, in whom city council has full confidence. For your information would further add that St. Thomas does not desire to block rail or industrial development beneficial to southwestern Ontario.
I also want to correct one of the misstatements made by the hon. member for Toronto Northwest, that this railway parallels an existing line. I make the definite statement that it does not. The nearest station on the London and Port Stanley railway, which some hon. members are so anxious to pro-
3772	COMMONS
London and Port Burwell Railway
tect, is not within twelve miles of any proposed station od the London and Port Bur-well railway.


Thomas Langton Church: Would the hon. member
give the vote in the city of St. Thomas in favour of the hydro radial bill? It was ten to one for hydro radials.


Mitchell Frederick Hepburn: I am not talking of
hydro radials. Connected with this railway proposition there is now pending what I believe will be the biggest industrial development we have ever had promised in southern Ontario. So great does that development promise to be that the promoters are willing and anxious to spend money to build a branch or feeder line to the main trunk line running east and west through southern Ontario. I do not blame them for not wishing to tie themselves up with a railway monopoly. When we look at the map we see a huge American city opposite a Canadian village, the reason being that we are always too prone to protect monopolies in Canada; in fact we are making it the happy hunting ground for monopolies. I appeal to the fair-mindedness of this house to take a vote on this bill. W'e are willing to abide by the decision.


John Franklin White: Mr. Speaker, when this bill was before the house last Tuesday night I made some remarks in connection with it, and now I wish to make some further observations and to refer to some of the statements which have been made by the sponsor of the bill (Mr. Taylor), and also by the member for West Elgin (Mr. Hepburn) who is supporting it. In the short time that the 'bill was before the committee of the whole on Tuesday night I opposed it, believing it to be undesirable and unnecessary. On that occasion I outlined the situation and informed the house that the proposed line would practically parallel the existing line. It is true the two lines would be a few miles apart at the southern end, but they converge as they approach the city of London at the north end. I also gave a short history of the existing road, the London and Port Stanley, and showed that is has been in actual operation for seventy-five years, and that it is now controlled and operated municipally as a public-owned proposition. Further, I stated that my constituency owns four-fifths of the stock and the Canadian National Railways about one-fifth, there being a few privately owned shares.


William Horace Taylor: Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. Surely the hon. member for

London (Mr. White) should not obstruct by reading his speech.


John Franklin White: Mr. Speaker, I do not suppose that is a point of order.


Mitchell Frederick Hepburn: Put down your notes and see how far you can go.


John Franklin White: I also referred to the quality of the installation, to the. condition of the road and to its equipment, and also to its importance as a freight-distributing line to London and to Port Stanley. I also explained the method adopted by the city council of London in managing-


Charles Avery Dunning: Surely, Mr. Speaker, it is not in order for my hon. friend to repeat a speech which he admits he made on a previous occasion.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, no.


Charles Avery Dunning: He says so.


An hon. MEMBER:: He did not.


John Wesley Edwards: It is on
the same subject.


Hewitt Bostock: It is permissible for an hon. member to refer to remarks made on a previous occasion on the same subject provided he does not repeat word for word what he then said.


Charles Avery Dunning: He is coming pretty close to it.


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


John Franklin White: I would remind the Minister of Railways (Mr. Dunning) that this is a different stage of the bill and a different question entirely is now under consideration. Besides, probably there are members present to-night who were not here last Tuesday night, and when I get through the house will see that I have not made the same speech.


An hon. MEMBER:: Or any speech.


John Franklin White: I desire to make
my speech in my own way, not to have others make it for me. I referred also to the financial results and showed that for several years the road had made surpluses after paying rentals, interest on sinking fund and operating costs, but that owing to unforseen competition from motor trucks and so on much of the business of the road had disappeared in the last few years, with consequent deficits.


Mitchell Frederick Hepburn: Have you not had
charges of bribery and corruption levelled against the road?

London and Port Bunoell Railway


John Franklin White: If the hon. gentleman will possess his soul in patience I will answer that part of his remarks as well. He may not hear it to-night, but he will a little later. I also showed-


Mitchell Frederick Hepburn: What is the answer?


John Franklin White: I' have answered
you before.


Hewitt Bostock: Order.


John Franklin White: I also showed [DOT]
how Port Burwell is already served by the Canadian Pacific Railway, that there is not enough business to keep one road busy, so that without a great influx of population, of which there is no immediate prospect, two roads could not possibly be successful.
In regard to no influx of population, I have looked up the census of Canada for 1921, and I find that the population in the district is less than it was in 1901. Those census figures deal with four townships and three villages. The townships are Malahide, Bayham, Yarmouth and South Dorchester. In 1901 the township of Malahide had a population of 3,795; in 1921, 3,191. In 1901 the township of Bayham had a population of 3,771; in 1921, 3,438. In 1901 the township of Yarmouth had a population of 5,089; in 1921, 5,212. In 1901 the township of South Dorchester had a population of 1,637; in 1921, 1,550. Taking the four townships together there were 900 fewer people in that district in 1921 than in 1901. The villages comprise Aylmer, Springfield and Vienna. In 1901 Aylmer had a population of 2,204; in 1921, 2,194. In 1901 Springfield had a population of 501; in 1921, 460. In 1901 Vienna had a population of 352; in 1921, 288. So that there were 115 fewer people in these three towns or villages in 1921 than in 1901. Taking the whole district together, the population has diminished by about one thousand. But it is curious that the town of Port Stanley and the city of St. Thomas, which are not touched by this proposed railway, have gained in population in the decades I have mentioned. In 1901 Port Stanley had a population of 552; in 1921, 973. In 1901 St. Thomas had a population of 11,485; in 1921, 16,026. In other wordis, Port Stanley and St. Thomas have increased considerably in population since 1901. In view of these figures and the fact that there is no general demand for more railways, I submit that the facilities in that area are adequate. I wish to bring to the attention of the house another feature, and that is the relative mileage of the London and Port Stanley Railway and of the proposed road. ' The London and Port
Stanley Railway is twenty-four miles long while the proposed line is thirty-four miles, according to the sponsor of the bill. That is to say, it has 40 per cent more trackage. It has ten miles more of right of way to purchase. On that account it will have a higher cost of construction, a higher cost for interest and sinking fund, and a higher cost for maintenance and operation. To balance that the freight rate is being considered. Some people have the idea that the installation of the road will result in lower freight rates on coal and coke from Erie to London. I would point out that the freight rates are fixed by the Railway Commissioners, the rate from Port Stanley to London being the governing rate. That is the established rate, and all other lines which find their way to London will have to charge rates correspondingly. These rates, I say, are fixed and confirmed by the railway commission.
It is said by the promoters of the bill that the success of the railroad depends on the success of the coking plant Which it is proposed to establish. Central Canada is of course very much interested in fuel to replace anthracite coal. All our supplies of anthracite come from the United States. These supplies of coal are being depleted and before long central Canada will have to find an additional supply of fuel. We have been trying out substitutes and have used small shipments of Alberta coal. Many people have turned to coke and a number of others to the use of oil. Now the matter of establishing a coking plant is a very important one, but I do not intend at the present moment to go into the pros and cons of coke production. My information is that the proposed amount which is to be spent on the coking plant is utterly inadequate for the installation which will be required to establish a going concern which will be able to compete with others already putting goods on the market. It seems to me, from what I can gather, that it would take two or three times the amount of capital which it is proposed to spend in order to install a thoroughly equipped coking plant.
In the railway committee the promoter of the bill was asked as to the type of coking plant which it is proposed to establish. He was uncertain; he did not seem to know the difference between certain types of 'coking plants; but he did say, I think, that there were three or four kinds, any one of which might be used. At any rate he gave no particularly definite information concerning the plant. Now, I know of one firm in London who are interested in things of this kind and
3774	COMMONS
London and Port Burwell Railway
who had a great deal of engineering advice on the matter. They went into it most thoroughly and exhaustively and they came to the conclusion that the installation of a coking plant was not likely to be a paying proposition. Accordingly they abandoned the idea. It might be that in other respects this proposal would be a success, but there are many questions which ought to be considered in regard to this proposed plant and which so far have not been answered. Rather than take on the responsibilities and uncertainties of railroad operation, this company might very well turn its attention to the production of coke and gas and refuse to have anything whatever to do with the railway project. I am quite sure that the operation of the railroad will so cripple this company that the coking plant will fall by the wayside. Otherwise it might be a success. At. page 3919 of Hansard the sponsor of the bill is reported in connection with the question. Speaking in regard to the finances, he said:
This company -are not asking, nor do they intend to ask, for any assistance financially or otherwise, except that they be given the privilege to spend their money in this manner.
I ask, whose money is going to be spent? In the meeting of the railway committee when the question came up, the promoter mentioned certain hypothetical circumstances
which would prevent the railway from selling its bonds. I should judge from that statement that the company proposes to sell bonds to the public. In that case, of course, it can hardly be said that the railway company is spending its own money. It means that the public-no matter where they may be-who can be influenced to buy bonds will be the investors, and not the gentlemen who are seeking a charter for the road.
I could give several examples of losses which the people even in that section have suffered on account of activities of this kind. In my previous remarks I referred to the liquidation of the South Western Traction Company., a radial lino which ran from London to Port Stanley at one time and which had charters to run to various other towns in western Ontario. Those who invested money in that concern lost it. That was followed by the London and Lake Erie Transportation Company, which operated for a while and then followed in the footsteps of the traction company. It went into liquidation and the ruins of some of its works are to be seen to-day. The bond holders have nothing to show for their investment in that road except these ruins.

I have been treated to a little editorial comment in connection with this matter. A few days ago an editorial appeared in a newspaper, this statement being made, that London had the reputation of putting an old established firm out of business on account of its going into railroad operation. Let me say that London was operating the Port Stanley road fifty-three years before this company referred to went into business. Consequently th firm referred to, the London and Lake Erie Transportation Company, were forced to go out of business.
Parliament should study most carefully the prospects of every railroad before allowing the passage of bills which may ultimately in volve losses to the general public. This house has made some efforts to move along that direction, and the matter is covered to a great extent by a report made by the Drayton-Acworth commission.


Hewitt Bostock: Time.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: If the house will permit me to interject a few remarks, I merely widi to say that we have been discussing the first of a series of private bills, and that of the entire number, only some four, or possibly half a dozen, are contentious. The government is anxious to further the wishes of hon. members in bringing about prorogation at as early a date as may be appropriate, and it would assist the government considerably in the arrangement of its program if hon. members would allow such private bills as are non-contentious to pass at this evenings' sitting. Of course, unanimous consent would be required for the purpose. I do not suggest that any contentious bill should be discussed, but if hon. members would allow the others to be taken up, on the understanding that any hon. member is free to rise and ask that any bill be allowed to stand, we could clear the slate of a good many of these bills and, as I say, it would materially aid the government in arranging its program.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wholly concur in the observation made by the Prime Minister.


John Franklin White: I should like to know what is the standing of this bill?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is a contentious bill and will be assigned its proper place.


John Franklin White: I presume this will be a contentious bill, and that it will now go to the foot of the list.

Private Bills


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the House that we now proceed with the noncontentious bills? Unanimous consent is necessary.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.



CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE-THIRD READINGS

[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 215, to incorporate the Canadian Commerce Insurance Company-Mr. Bell (Hamilton).
Bill No. 314, respecting the Dominion Fire Insurance Company-Mr. Ryckman.
Bill No. 303, respecting a certain patent of Anchor Cap and Closure Corporation of Canada, Limited-Mr. Clark.
Bill No. 341, to incorporate Eastern Bank of Canada-Mr. Foster.
Bill No. 71, to incorporate The St. Lawrence River Bridge Company-Mr. Smith (Stormont).
Bill No. 342, for the relief of Frank Deering-Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 343, for the relief of Mary Mabel Jennie Potten Impey-Mr. Church.
Bill No. 344, for the relief of Cyril Wilfred King-Mr. Sanderson.
Bill No. 345, for the relief of Myrtle Adelia Baker Knauff-Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 346, for the relief of James Harvey Lefurgey-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 347, for the relief of Hilda Evelyn McDowell-Mr. Jelliff.
Bill No. 348, for the relief of Catherine Ellen Mobbs-Mr. Jelliff.
Bill No. 349, for the relief of Edith Elizabeth Poole-Mr. Arthurs.
Bill No. 350, for the relief of Henry Frederick White-Mr. Casselman.
Bill No. 351, for the relief of Frederick Clayton Wilton-Mr. Arthurs.
Bill No. 352, for the relief of Lillian May Yuill-Mr. Lennox.
Bill No. 353, for the relief of Ruth Ellen Braund-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill No. 354, for the relief of Harry Alven Heels-Mr. Heaps.
Bill No. 355, for the relief of Francis Augustus Pearce-Mr. Arthurs.
Bill No. 356, for the relief of Florence Anne Salmon-Mr. Price.
Bill No. 357, for the relief of Rocco Scocco- Mr. Church.
Bill No. 358, for the relief of Mary Audry Walton Smith-Mr. Young (Toronto).

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 322, respecting a certain patent of Jean Baptiste Hurteau-Mr. Prevost-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
On section 1-Extension of time.
Edward Joseph Garland: I would like to ask whoever is sponsoring this bill to explain what it is about. I notice it is one of those patent bills, with which we have had trouble before. I have no desire to obstruct, but I would like to know what the bill is about.


Mr. PREVOST (Translation):: Mr. Chairman, I wish to briefly state that this bill is purely a matter of form. It is a question of reviving a patent which had lapsed owing to an oversight on the part of the patentee. It is simply a matter of form.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 339, to incorporate the Detroit River Canadian Bridge Company-Mr. Odette-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Harry Bernard Short: Mr. Chairman, I notice on
the order paper the words "without amendment." What does that mean?


John Frederick Johnston: That means that the
bill was not amended in committee.
Sections 1 to 21 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.



CUMBERLAND RAILWAY AND COAL COMPANY

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee on Bill No. 304, respecting the Cumberland Railway and Coal Company-Mr. Ilsley-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Harry Bernard Short: Please explain.


Mr. ILSLEY:: This bill was fully explained when it was before the railway committee. An act was passed by the Nova Scotia legislature incorporating a new company called the Dominion Coal and Steel Corporation, Limited, which was authorized to acquire practically all the companies which constituted the British Empire Steel Corporation. The purpose and object of the bill passed by the Nova Scotia legislature was to get all the properties of these various companies under unified control and management. One of the companies is the Cumberland Railway and Coal Company, which was incorporated by this parliament by chapter 77 of the acts of 1883. Before this company can transfer its assets to the new
Private Bills

Nova Scotia corporation, that is, the Dominion Steel and Coal Corporation Limited, there must be an empowering act by this parliament, and this is that act.


Mr. QUINN:: When did this pass the Nova Scotia legislature?


James Lorimer Ilsley: I cannot give my hon. friend the exact date, but it was bill No. 202, of 1928; it passed a few weeks ago.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
THE people's THRIFT CORPORATION
The house in committee on Bill No. 340, to incorporate the People's Thrift Corporation-Mr. Casgrain-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Sections 1 to 7 agreed to.
On section 8-Exceptions.
Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: I notice there is an amendment; could we have that explained?


Mr. CASGRAIN:: The amendment was
simply to correct clerical errors. For instance, in one place the word "corporation" apeared instead of the word "company", and vice versa. That was the only thing that was amended.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The house resumed from Friday, June 1,' consideration in committee of Bill No. 57, respecting the Edmonton, Dunvegan and British Columbia Railway Company.-Mr. Kennedy-Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Bill reported.
Hewitt Bostock: Moved by Mr. Kennedy, seconded by Mr. Speakman, that this bill be now read a third time.


Sir EUGENE FISET:: I think the orders of the day should be followed in regard to the third readings.


Hewitt Bostock: I am reading the last bill which was reported from committee of the whole. The others were not reported.


Eugène Fiset: They have been reported from the committee, but when you
[Mr. Ilsley.l
come to the third readings I think the orders of the day should be followed.


Hewitt Bostock: I understand unanimous consent has been given to the third reading of these bills.


Mr. CANNON:: If I understand properly the point of the hon. member for Rimouski, while it is true that the house has given its consent as regards bills which were considered in committee, the hon. member says, now that we have reached the stage of third readings, we ought to fake up the bills in the order in which they stand on the order paper-


Hewitt Bostock: That was not my understanding, but I am in the hands of the house.


Lucien Cannon: -and always subject to the understanding that if any bill is contentious, it should not be considered.


Hewitt Bostock: But the point was not raised in committee about the bill being contentious or not.


Lucien Cannon: As long as it is not raised, we go along with the bOls. This is always subject to the understanding that we are now dealing with bills which are not contentious.


Hewitt Bostock: My understanding was that only non-contentious were to be passed. Non-contentious bills have been reported. If this is a contentious bill, of course I shall not proceed with it.
Some hon. MEMBERS': Carried.


Hewitt Bostock: This bill having been reported from committee and no objection having been taken in committee, the bill being non-contentious, I have only to ask the house to carry it.


Eugène Fiset: I will withdraw my Objection.


Hewitt Bostock: I think that will help the other bills.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



CENTRAL FINANCE CORPORATION

[Stage Direction]
Mr. F. W. HAY (North Perth, for Mr. Lang) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 59, to incorporate the Central Finance Corporation.
He said:	Mr. Speaker, I beg to say on
behalf of the hon. member for South Timis-

Supply-National Defence
kaming (Mr. Lang), the sponsor of this bill, and also for the promoters of the bill, that they are quite agreeable to accepting the amendments as made by the Senate.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. J. A. CLARK (Vancouver-Burrard) moved the second reading of and concurrence in amendments made by the Senate to Bill No. 66, respecting a certain patent of Douglas J. Martin.
Motion agreed to; amendments read the second time and concurred in.
Hewitt Bostock: The hour for private bills having expired, the house will resume in committee of supply.


George Reginald Geary: Mr. Speaker, is it quite
correct to say that the hour for private bills has expired? It did expire at nine o'clock. This was another arrangement. It may make a difference.


Hewitt Bostock: There was an agreement
made, with the unanimous consent of the house, to extend the time. It very often happens that the house rises before six o'clock, yet the Speaker has to say, "It being six o'clock I do now leave the chair."


Harry Bernard Short: What about this extra half
hour we have been talking on these bills?



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Civil air operations-flying operations for civil government departments in connection with aerial photographic surveys, forestry patrols, forestry ana grain pests, transportation, etc.; control of civil aviation, establishing air routes, aerodromes and airship bases, aeronautical engineering, etc., $3,195,037.
Jean-François Pouliot: I have said a few words
about the previous item, and what I wish to speak of now is a very serious aeroplane accident that happened at St. Alexander, not far from Riviere du Loup, on Saturday last.
I shall be very brief, but I wish to give our friends of the press gallery a scoop. It was not mentioned in the papers, but an aeroplane belonging to the Transcontinental Airways, a company which has a contract with the Post Office department, crashed. The aeroplane left Montreal for Rimouski, where
there is a landing field, but on account of the foggy weather the pilot was unable ta land. He could not see the field, and he had to go back to Quebec. As his supply of gas was nearly exhausted he tried to land near Riviere du Loup, an important city, just about halfway between Rimouski and Quebec. There is no landing field there, the country being all divided up by fences and ditches, and it was not possible for him to find a suitable landing place, although he flew very low and tried to locate a favourable spot. Not succeeding, he went- further on his way to Quebec, and at St. Alexander, as his supply of gas was very low, he had to come down, and his machine was wrecked in landing. Fortunately, he was not hurt. My point, Mr. Chairman, is that in the United States, in Mexico and in other countries with air routes there are landing fields. Hydroplanes have been used experimentally, but owing to the conditions at certain times on the St. Lawrence river they were not found satisfactory; aeroplanes are now used rather exclusively, especially along the St. Lawrence river. The distance from Montreal to Rimouski is about 375 miles, and I desire to ask the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Ralston) if he intends to build a landing field at Riviere du Loup. Such a field would be a real help for aviators and would improve the mail service over that route. Riviere du Loup is an ideal location, being not not very far from New Brunswick and Maine; in fact, it is one of the best sites in eastern Quebec for such a purpose. Does fhe department buy the ground or does it help the local authorities to acquire the necessary site? Also, does the department erect any buildings on landing fields?


James Layton Ralston: I may say that the department- has not under consideration the provision of a landing field at the point mentioned. My hon. friend may not know that the company to which he refers, Transcontinental Airways Limited, has the contract for carrying the mails from Montreal to Rimouski, and under that contract the company must itself provide any intermediate landing fields. It is impossible for the department to forecast the need for landing fields along the route. While a fog settled over the point which my hon. friend mentioned, forcing the plane to land, on another occasion the forced landing might be somewhere where it would be impracticable to provide a field. Therefore the contractor has to provide his own facilities at intermediate points.



Supply-National Defence
The general policy of the department is not to provide landing fields except solely for government services. We are endeavouring to encourage municipalities all over the country to realize the importance to their own towns of themselves providing these facilities. On request the department sends a qualified officer to look over the proposed site and to advise on the preparation of the landing field.


Jean-François Pouliot: Does the department contribute towards providing such fields or for their maintenance?


James Layton Ralston: No. The only contribution the department makes is to send officers to advise on suitable sites and for their preparation for aviation purposes. This is generally the system in the United States where they have many municipal aerodromes.


Mr. PARENT:: I notice that this item refers to flying operations for civil government departments in connection with aerial photographic surveys, forestry patrols, forestry and grain pests, transportation, etc. I should imagine that much of this work should fall under the provincial authorities. What authority, provincial or federal, has to do with this?


James Layton Ralston: The services referred to are federal. The forestry patrols are in connection with the Department of the Interior.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: I think I saw in the Imperial conference report that those air pilots who had received commercial certificates in civil aviation became automatically members of the military force or the reserve force. I should like the Minister of National Defence to confirm my view that these' air pilots are not obligated in any way so far as military service is concerned.


James Layton Ralston: I can confirm that, and assure my hon. friend that that is absolutely so.


Georges Parent: I am not quite satisfied with the minister's answer to my question. In Quebec the provincial authorities are engaged in forestry patrol work by means of aeroplanes. What relations exist between the federal authority and the provincial in such matters?


James Layton Ralston: 
Robert Gardiner: Will this be sufficient to complete the magazine?


James Layton Ralston: It will not be. As I remember, the amount estimated was $500,000, and I think $255,000 will have been expended up to 1028. This will bring the total expenditure to $355,000.
litem agreed to.
Government of the Northwest Territories- Mackenzie basin system-radio _ services-for the maintenance and operation of the Mackenzie division radio system with stations at Dawson, Mayo, Edmonton, Fort Smith, Fort Simpson, Fort Resolution, Aldavik and Herschel island, $139,000.


Robert Gardiner: Will the minister explain this item?


James Layton Ralston: It is for the maintenance and operation of the Mackenzie division radio stations. There is a slight reduction in the estimate this year of $11,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Battlefields memorials, $180,000.
Robert Gardiner: What progress has been made in this direction? How much was spent last year, and for what purpose?


James Layton Ralston: This is a contribution to the battlefields commission. We deal only indirectly with it. The vote is $20,000 less than last year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Who comprise the commission?


James Layton Ralston: I beg my hon. friend's pardon; I was thinking of the contribution to the Imperial War Graves Commission. The Battlefields Memorials Commission is our own. It is comprised of Major-General Mewburn, the Honourable the Speaker, and others whose names I cannot recall at the moment.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What progress has been made in their work?


James Layton Ralston: The Vimy memorial is practically the only one left. The secretary of the commission has just returned from the old country where he has been endeavouring to straighten out a serious situation with regard to that memorial. He has come back with an excellent report and the work will now be proceeded with and be finished within a measurable period; I cannot predict just when. It seems to be a case where architects and

contractors have been experiencing some difficulty.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for Canada's proportionate share of the expenditure made by the Imperial War Graves Commission, including contribution to endowment fund for the permanent maintenance of cemeteries, graves and memorials, $573,780.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Does this complete our contribution?


James Layton Ralston: No; there are five contributions and there are three left.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Are these for graves outside Canada?


James Layton Ralston: Outside and inside.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National defence-militia services, $150,000.
Naval services, $5,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: What about the claims of certain British officers who came here and remained for a time on the promise of a bonus which has never been paid? I happened to meet one of these officers in command of a steamer crossing the ocean. He had never been paid his bonus. He was lent by the British government to our government, his claim was preferred, and it was denied on the ground that the British government should pay^ it. They did not pay it and he has received nothing. He just happened to mention the fact to me and I intended to inquire personally of my hoe. friend. Now that the vote is before the committee I wonder whether anything can be done?


James Layton Ralston: I thought I had had presented to me almost every claim that had been submitted to my predecessors and which had not been passed upon. I had not heard of this claim.


Richard Bedford Bennett: It is in connection with the naval service.


James Layton Ralston: I shall be glad to make a note of it.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Would this amount be available for that purpose?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


Mr. ROBINSON:: We have a great number of returned soldiers to take care of in Detroit and that vicinity. I refer to men who die over there and who would be buried in paupers' graves were it not for the Great War Veterans and other associations at Windsor who give the bodies decent burial. We bought a. plot some years ago in the Windsor Grove cemetery, but it is now filled to capacity. It
56103-239i
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will require $3,000 or $4,000 more for an extension for future burials. I would suggest to the minister that an appropriation be made to take care of this work. So far the money has all to be raised by voluntary contribution. If any further details were necessary I could supply them, but in any case the minister should give the matter his earnest consideration.


James Layton Ralston: There is some arrangement between the Department of Soldiers' Civil Reestablishment and the American Red Cross. Is my hon. friend referring to the case of exCanadian soldiers now living in the United States?


Sidney Cecil Robinson: And British soldiers living in the United States.


James Layton Ralston: Will my hon. friend give me a memorandum?


Sidney Cecil Robinson: I shall be glad to write the minister fully on the subject. I have in mind a major with a splendid war record in the Imperial army, who dred of tuberculosis and was to be buried in a potter's grave. He had not a cent. The matter was brought to the attention of the authorities at Windsor and we gave him a proper burial.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Militia services-engineer services and works -further amount required for rifle range at North Vancouver, $30,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Is this entirely new?


James Layton Ralston: This is new, but the property was bought last year. There is a rifle range out there but it has been so built around that the buildings are within the danger area. I can tell the committee that my information is there will be likely no cost to the country in the purchase of a new range, because the land1 in the old range is worth probably as much as the cost and development of the new.


Mr. CLARK:: For years the city of
Vancouver has been practically without a range. Will this range be in operation this year?


James Layton Ralston: I cannot assure my hon. friend.


John Arthur Clark: Will this vote complete the range?


James Layton Ralston: No.


John Arthur Clark: How much will be required?


James Layton Ralston: Probably it will run to

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John Arthur Clark: Why cannot the whole sum be voted at once and the range put into operation? There is a very large district there without proper accommodation. Men go out on the twelve o'clock car on Saturdays and return in the evening at eight o'clock without having shot.


James Layton Ralston: I understand that; but my hon. friend will give me credit for having taken hold of the matter and endeavoured to do something. For some years there has been difficulty; practice has been carried on there, but not satisfactorily. However, we are trying to remedy the situation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of Health-the administration of the acts respecting food and drugs, honey, maple products, opium and narcotic drugs and proprietary or patent medicines, $130,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: I believe the hon. member for Muskoka desires to discuss, this item, so perhaps we might let it stand for now.


Mr. KING (Kootenay):: Very well.
Item stands.
Marine hospitals, including burial expenses of destitute deceased mariners and grants to institutions assisting sailors, $210,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Could the minister give
us any particulars of the institutions which are assisted under this vote? I was asked to ascertain.


John Warwick King: We have departmental marine hospitals at Sydney and Lunenburg; in the other ports we have contracts with the local hospitals, where provision is made for the treatment of sick mariners.


Robert Gardiner: Does the department
have contracts with these institutions?


John Warwick King: Yes. We arrange to pay so much per day per patient; it averages from $2.85 to $3 per day, depending on the locality.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Immigration medical inspection, $270,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Would the minister give an explanation of this item?


John Warwick King: This appropriation is required for the immigration medical inspection service.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does that include the
medical men overseas?


John Warwick King: Yes; that is why the vote has been increased this year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: How many men have
you overseas?


John Warwick King: I think we have
twenty-eight officers overseas.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What salaries do they
receive?


John Warwick King: The salaries vary
from $3,000 to $3,480.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Is there any additional
grant for expenses?


John Warwick King: Yes, they get
$660 living allowance in addition to their salaries; the grade 2 officers get $780 and the grade 3 officers $900 as a living allowance.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In view of the report of the immigration committee, might it not be well to allow this item to stand? This matter was discussed in that committee, and the report might have some bearing upon this item.


John Warwick King: Very well.
Item stands.
Laboratory of Hygiene, $5,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Should not this be included in the work of the National Research Council? This was one of the matters I had in mind this afternoon when I mentioned the necessity of having these appropriations dealt with by the National Research Council. The [DOT]following item for $100,000 is in a similar, position; apparently there is an organization in this country which does that particular work, and this is a grant to that organization. The point is whether or not we really get any value for moneys spent under these circumstances, especially having regard to what has been done by the research bureaux such as the Rockefeller Institute and the Carnegie Foundation; is a grant of this kind of any value for laboratory work? I fancy no one knows better than the Minister of Health how absolutely valueless is $5,000 in connection with investigations of this kind. We might expend $5,000,000 before satisfactory results are obtained, so I suggest that this item should form a part of the amount voted the National Research Council.


John Warwick King: I might say that
this item of $5,000 is to provide for the examination of certain drugs which were dealt with last year in an amendment to the Food and Drugs Act, under which it was proposed that these drugs should be standardized. There was the drug digitalin and some of the mercurial preparations. This is a very small

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amount and is more to cheek the manufacturers who puts these drugs on the market, to see that the product is up to standard.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is why I thought
the research council should deal with it.


John Warwick King: I rather think it
should be done in the department. We have our inspectors enforcing the Food and' Drugs Act; they take these samples from the various stores and tests are made in the laboratory.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Since the research council will not be functioning until next year perhaps the item should pass for this year, but I do think each department should not deal with these matters in this way. [DOT] The next item is one in which the provinces are vitally interested, and in connection with which they must make some expenditures.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Venereal diseases, $100,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: Might I ask whether
this amount is used by the department itself, or whether it is granted to the provinces? What is the method?


John Warwick King: We grant it to
the provinces, and they expend the money on the understanding that they supplement the grant dollar for dollar, on the basis of population.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Then this money really
goes to assist the very difficult and arduous work of the provincial department of health in this regard?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Mr. KAISER:: Just at this point I should
like permission to make a few general observations. Most of us regret that these items come before parliament in the last hours of the session, when the men who have given a great deal of attention to this kind of work are rather closed out from expressing themselves on these important matters. I hope that in a future session we may have a little time in which to bring before the house and the country a few matters which are of great importance, and which should be taken over by this department.
Somehow or other it is commonly accepted ;n Canada that the matter of public health s assigned by statute to the provinces. We who have studied this question have submitted that point to legal authorities, some of whom say that we are not working along national lines in connection with the public health of our country. It is held by some that the maj or matters of public health should be looked after by the parliament of Canada.
The only matter specifically mentioned in the British North America Act in regard to public health is that of quarantine, and that matter is assigned to the federal government. Nothing is said of other matters in regard to public health, for the simple reason that in 1867 the health of the nation was really a matter which was not considered at all. We must remember that only in 1882 was an organization known as the provincial board of health started by the province of Ontario. We think to-day that if the British North America Act were to come into existence now, a great many matters which are handled at present by the provinces would be taken over by the Dominion government. The authorities state that matters which are not mentioned as specifically assigned to the provinces should be assigned to the Dominion.
Twenty-five years ago a child born in Canada had a chance to live to be thirty-three years of age, then the average life of man. Owing to the application of health principles throughout the various parts of Canada and the United States, Dr. Mayo was enabled to say in the city of Toronto about a month ago that the average span of life has been increased to fifty-eight years. This marvellous result has come about by the proper application of principles well understood to-day, and these matters are being merged and brought forward as a national effort.
I contend that the Dominion government should divide this country into certain areas. In the maritime provinces there should be about three in each province; in Quebec about ten; in Ontario ten or twelve, and so on from the Atlantic to the Pacific. The Dominion government should pay at least one-half the cost of employing permanent medical officers to supervise certain of the matters in connection with the public health of the country. If the government of Canada were to take hold of certain of the work in regard to public health and spread it over this Dominion of Canada, we would be in step with other countries and could expect to make the average life of man seventy years within fifteen years' time.
The question is so important and permeates into so many quarters that a conference should take place. Some of our leading experts on public health are to-day urging us to bring this question up in parliament, in order that what we hope will take place may be accomplished. Nothing can be done now, but I hope that a resolution will be submitted to parliament within the next few years dealing with this matter of prime importance.
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We spend $900,000 on this department, and less than $400,000 is spent on the health of the community. The larger part of it is spent for civil government, and we do not get results throughout the Dominion for the amount that is expended. As I say, I trust at some future session I shall be able to submit a resolution in which the government of Canada will be asked to take hold of many matters that are now assigned to the provinces. They could be spread over the whole Dominion and the result in the next ten or fifteen years would be startling.


Mr. MALONEY:: What is the department doing in the matter of the prevention and treatment of venereal diseases?


John Warwick King: The grant of $100,000 is for the treatment of venereal diseases, This amount has been given for some years on a pro rata basis to the provinces. There are some fifty-six clinics organized throughout the Dominion, and all the provinces, with the exception of Prince Edward Island, have taken advantage of this grant. The grant is distributed according to population. Alberta, with a population of 588,000, gets $6,504; British Columbia, with a population of 524,000, gets $5,798; Ontario, with a population of 2,933,000, gets $32,425, and Quebec, with a population of 2,361,000, gets $28,098. These clinics, we are informed, have brought about a very great improvement in the larger centres, particularly Montreal and Toronto. The hospital statistics show that there has been a great improvement in regard to the care and treatment of these cases.


Martin James Maloney: In what way is the money expended?


John Warwick King: Some $97,000 is expended by grants to the provinces, and $3,000 for administration.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: In other words, the department admits no responsibility other than that-of passing the vote and handing the grants over to the provinces?


John Warwick King: The department
merely supervises it and sees that it is properly handled. My hon. friend is quite right in his remarks regarding the limitations of the Health department under our Dominion regulations. Health matters are no longer confined to localities; they are not even national, but have become international, and the action to-day of medical authorities and those who are interested in this work is to try to internationalize it and bring about uniform condi-

tions. We are doing that through the Dominion Council of Health, composed of the officers of the provincial boards of health who meet in conference with the Dominion health officials twice a year. They have done very good work in bringing about uniformity in our laws in regard to health, but there is the constitutional difficulty in that these matters are delegated to the provinces.


Martin James Maloney: It would seem that all
this is only an excuse. I do not wish to find fault with the minister or his subordinates, because some of them are very exceptional and capable men, but here is a department spending less than a million dollars; a large part is alloted to the payment of salaries, and absolutely nothing is being done so far as the public health is concerned. The minister himself admits that. If you read over the reports of the various provincial boards of health you will find that they are all dealing with public health in a systematic and a scientific way. The Dominion department should either take charge of public health or hand it over to the provinces, who seem to be doing the work and doing it well. I have great sympathy for the Minister of Health; he is a man who, I am sure, is most capable and anxious to administer this department in the interests of the people of Canada, but I find that he is debarred by several other departments in this government. For example, the health of Indians comes under the Department of the Interior, and he has absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. He is not allowed to touch health matters connected with the Department of Agriculture. He has absolutely nothing whatever to say except to O.K. the salaries of those who do the work. For that reason I quite agree with the hon. member for Ontario that there should be a rattling of the dry bones in this department and that after this year something should be done to place it on a proper basis or else to put it of business.


Mr.   BOSS@Kingston: Is any part of this amount paid to the Canadian Social Hygiene Council?


John Warwick King: No, they receive a separate grant. Formerly a sum was set aside out of this appropriation, but that is no longer the case.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil government [DOT]- Health 

 salaries and contingencies, $250,727.50.
Agnes Campbell Macphail: I want to ask the Minister of Public Health if the government con-

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template taking any action on the report on maternal mortality, publication No. 37 brought down by the department, whereby the number of deaths among women in Canada will be lessened?


John Warwick King: Our action will be taken through consultation with the various provinces, through supporting the Canadian Council on Child Welfare, and through the committees on health matters, Dominion and provincial.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I fear that working with the child welfare organizations will not in any way affect this condition of maternal mortality. It will take a large vote to deal with the matter. Does the government contemplate inserting in the estimates at the next session a special appropriation to cover the very great need which is shown in this report?


John Warwick King: I think the work is largely provincial. It is true the government has subsidized the child welfare league, which carry on an educational program throughout every one of the provinces and are doing considerable work. They are also co-operating with the various provincial governments. We are increasing that grant this year. The matter is pretty much provincial and it is really out of our field.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Governmental action
might be a provincial matter, but educational work along this line certainly must belong to the Dominion. Many doctors who have written letters in the report point out that the work is not being done by anybody in Canada, so it seems clear that the provinces are not doing this work. I do not see how the child welfare organization would cover this field even though a much larger grant is given.


John Warwick King: We have been
issuing publications and pamphlets in an endeavour to interest the people and the provincial authorities in this work. The matter has been discussed at several conferences and I think there has been an awakening in the various provinces in regard to the work. It is a question whether the Dominion should go into the provinces and carry on propaganda, or whether we should stimulate the activities of the provincial authortiies. Under our present constitution this seems to be the work of the provinces or of the municipalities. We can direct and probably give a lead, and that is what we have been endeavouring to do.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I noticed recently in a United States paper that they have what is
called the Federal Maternity and Infancy Act which appropriates $1,240,000 per annum among the states. Except for a free grant of $5,000 a year each, a state must put up as much as it gets from the federal treasury. The result of the use of this appropriation for educational purposes has been very good. The report went on to say:
The death rate of rural mothers from causes connected with child birth has dropped by 36 per cent in Utah and 26 per cent in Maryland.
These are two of the states that have taken the matter up. I have read this report with great interest and made a close study of it, and I feel that everybody who has bad anything to do with the report feels that this work has not been done in Canada. It seems to me that a special vote will have to be put through earmarked in some way that it is to be spent by the provinces on this work, or else the educational work will have to be carried on by the Dominion. The death rate is so terrific that it is a great national drain. These women are young; the average age in the year in which the investigation was made was only thirty-one years, and there Was an astounding number of them, namely (in 1926)	1J532 mothers who left
behind them 5,073 motherless children. From a national point of view we cannot just sit still and say that this is the work of the provinces. Somebody must get to work in regard to the matter. I hope by next year the government will be prepared to cooperate with the provinces in what I think is a very vital matter and see that somebody does the work. I do not care whether it is the provinces or the Dominion that do it, but it is something we cannot remain quiet about. It is rather remarkable that previous to this session, this great drain on our national life-the death of mothers-was mentioned in the House of Commons only once. It is not a subject that the Commons have ever interested themselves in and it is a subject that should be of interest to everybody who has the welfare of Canada at heart. I hope the minister will be prepared next session to do something definite and far-reaching in this matter.


Richard Bedford Bennett: May I direct the attention of the committee to page 76 of the estimates where the details of the civil government vote are shown, so that we may see to what extent the item includes the work of the research council? There is a chief of the laboratory of hygiene, chief of division of venereal disease control, chief pharmacologist, chief Dominion analyst; then further down

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Health
we find junior chemist, Dominion research assistant. Then we find pathologist and bacteriologist, laboratory assistants, and so on. I submit, although it may be too late, that this vote should not be used in this way but that the research council should take charge of these particular matters as well. We are spending $190,000 and paying a deputy minister a salary of $8,000 to hand over money to the provinces because the Department of Health cannot do very much as long as it functions in the way indicated, and this work should properly be in the hands of people who are trained for this particular business and who could deal with it properly.


John Warwick King: The hon. member is under a misapprehension. The services that he mentions are not research work. They are to analyze the food contents of various articles that are bought and to keep them within control. This is not research work at all; it is purely departmental. It is true that the work might be done in laboratories that would be controlled by the research council, but that council has not yet been established. To carry on the ordinary work required under the Food and Drugs Act requires the services of chemists and other officers, such as are mentioned in this item.


Richard Bedford Bennett: One of the officials is a medical research assistant.


John Warwick King: It is a very small item.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Yes, 'but it is the whole principle that is involved.


John Warwick King: It is to deal with the amendments that were made to the act last year. We have standardized certain drugs and we have to check up the manufacturers in order to see that they axe living up to the standards. This is not research work at all.


Mr.   BOSS@Kingston: Is that the work of the medical research assistant?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Arthur Edward Ross: In other words, he is a chemist. If he is a very good man, the minister is lucky to get him at that salary.


John Warwick King: I think so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Social Hygiene Council-further amount required, $10,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: This is in accordance
with the request made by Doctor Bates?


John Warwick King: Yes.


Richard Bedford Bennett: He is asking for a much larger sum. I am sure the minister has seen the figures that indicate the ravages of disease in this country which might be described as preventable disease, and this work was one of them to which great attention was directed. It does occur to me that if part of the $190,000 that is used in paying, in my judgment, for unnecessary sendees at Ottawa, were used for that purpose, we would have very great results, because the minister must realize that what we are doing is handing money over in many instances to the provinces or to voluntary organizations that are carrying on this work throughout Canada. With $190,000 being spent for salaries for the Department of Health, I do submit that we are getting no results commensurate with that expenditure at Ottawa. It is in many respects wasted money, if I might use the word without giving offence, and the proper course is to lessen the cost of the machine here and increase the efficiency of the work done by adding to the grant for this purpose, because the work they are doing is the real work that is being done, and they are doing it at very slight cost so far as overhead is concerned. I know how the provinces are driven for money, and I am satisfied that if a less costly machine were maintained here, and the amount of money was given for the purpose for whidh I think it should be given, namely, the prevention of diseases that are covered by this item, it would be of very much advantage to Canada as a whole.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian National Committee for Mental Hygiene-further amount required, $10,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: Will the minister explain what this is required for?


John Warwick King: This committee
was organized in 1918 for the purpose of rendering assistance in the solution of the many problems connected with mental abnormality in the Dominion. The grant of $10,000 was first voted for 1919-20 and has been paid each year since, with the exception of $5,000 in 1923-24.
The association is dominion-widie and is backed by substantial people, many of them having pledged their financial support for the next few years. They carry on investigations of the mental conditions amongst school children, prisons and asylums at the request of the authorities and report their findings to municipal and provincial governments with a view to the correction of conditions where

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necessary. Surveys of mental treatment have been made in several provinces and in most of these reforms have been made.
Psychiatric or dispensary mental clinics are conducted where examinations are made and much good work has been done in the treating of the incipient cases of mental disturbances.
This committee has also gathered valuable information as to the mental condition of many of the immigrants to this country, and from their same publications are strengthening public opinion in support of the government's efforts to exclude the mental misfits from Canadian citizenship.
The committee is composed of prominent men. Dr. Charles F. Martin, of Montreal, is president of the organization, and the executive officers are scattered throughout the various provinces. Undoubtedly they have done a very good work in stimulating public mterest in the character of the work that is being done in the provincial asylums. Yeans ago the asylum was looked upon merely as a place of refuge where patients were detained and given food and care, !bu!t to-day in the various provincial asylums we have these mental cases receiving medical or scientific consideration and treatment, with the result that many cases are being relieved and are being returned to their homes and vocations.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But the federal authority cannot reach the provincial institutions.


John Warwick King: We cannot do
anything more than subsidize1 an organization like this, which through propaganda and education is doing a very good work in Canada, work that the federal government might not be able to do. The people are sensitive in regard to suggestions in the matter of health and their home affairs, and especially sensitive of government interference, but men like Doctor Bates can through their organization and through the county and municipal councils carry on an effective campaign which is undoubtedly improving the condition in Canada and interesting the people in health matters.


Mr.   BOSS@Kingston: I do not think that this organization has very much to do with the situation so far as the provinces are concerned. .The provinces are far ahead in this work. They are doing the work, and their asylums are being run to-day in a manner that is far ahead of anything any organization of this kind can suggest. If the minister has reference to the penitentiaries, then I think some work could be done, but I intend to speak on that matter further when ive come to the Justice estimates. I think, however, that the minister has exaggerated a good deal as to the work this organization is doing. That it has any effect on the provincial authorities, I dispute, but if its work is in connection with the federal authorities, then I think it can be justified.
The minister also mentioned as a second argument the work which this association is doing in regard to immigrants, but having increased the grant now so that all those mental cases wishing to come are Stopped from coming, there will be no further need for the grant. I would like to know what other reason the minister can give in justification for this grant. I am not going to say that I am against it, but I want to know why this grant is being made. None of the reasons given satisfy me.


Martin James Maloney: The Dominion has nothing whatever to do with asylums; they are entirely under the control of the provinces. Judging from the reports of the various provincial boards of health, the work is being done admirably. The minister has given us no reason to believe that we should take this work out of the hands of the provincial authorities. Therefore unless we get some more satirfactory explanation from him I feel that we should strike out this item.


John Warwick King: This vote is very small. Since 1918 we have been voting annually ten thousand dollars to stimulate public interest in mental hygiene. My hon. friend says the Ontario government run their asylums. That is true. But mental hygiene means education in the homes, in the schools, and in the universities to deal with cases before they become of such a character as to require treatment in asylums. Undoubtedly a great work is being done by organizations such as this not only in Canada but throughout the LTnited States and other parts of the world. The Rockefeller Foundation is active in promoting mental hygiene in the United States. Many of the trained psychiatrists in the institutions in Ontario and the western provinces have been associated with this organization, and from it have proceeded to take other courses. This is a small grant and is solely for the purpose of stimulating the organization which is trying to improve the condition of those who happen to be somewhat mentally deficient and require considerate treatment and care.


Martin James Maloney: This is really the first intimation we have had that the federal gov-

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eminent has attempted to do anything to improve the mental condition of anybody in this country. We have always thought the work was in the hands of the provincial authorities. It is all right to talk of Charlie Martin being at the head of the work in Montreal, but that does not justify the grant.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister's last explanation has not helped the vote very much. I object to this additional ten thousand dollars in the absence of any satisfactory reason for the increase. The work is well taken caire of by the provinces, and I never heard of any person taking up such work in connection with the universities. What universities are engaged in this work?


John Warwick King: Representations
have been made to us that this organization expects to procure from the public subscriptions of over three-quarters of a million dollars, to be expended in the next four or five years. I know the university of Montreal will give a course in mental hygiene, and British Columbia through its university proposes to do so too. I have not been informed regarding Ontario, but I know that the people aotive in this work come largely from this province. It would be entirely out of place for the Dominion government to undertake this work, but we have felt from the representations made to us that this grant should be made. Since 1919 parliament apparently has been sufficiently impressed to make a grant of $10,000 each year. We have increased it this year because we are advised that the organization intends to extend its work. No one who has followed such work can say that it is not important and should not be supported, especially when we find that those who have given thought to it are to-day contributing larger sums from their own means to encourage a continuance of the work.
'Item agreed to.
The administration of the acts respecting food and drugs, honey, maple products, opium and narcotic drugs and proprietary or patent medicines, $130,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The hon. member for Muskoka (Mr. McGibbon) is here now, if the minister will go back to item 61 at page 22 of the estimates.


Peter McGibbon: Will the minister state in connection with the Narcotic Drugs Act how many convictions have been secured during the past year, what have been the occupations of those convicted, and the penalties inflicted?


John Warwick King: The total convictions ending September 30, 1927, covered 459 male and 31 female offenders. Of these 327 were given the option of a fine and 159 were committed to jail. The nationalities were: British and American, 192, Chinese, 351; French, 24; Italian, 4; Polish, 2; Russian, 1; Jewish, 3; Hindu, 3; negro, 1. I have not the occupations.


Peter McGibbon: I insist, Mr. Chairman, that the minister give the occupations:	I
want him to subdivide the figures and tell us what the commitments were for.


John Warwick King: Most of those
people who have been convicted are engaged in the traffic of drugs or are addicts. I except those engaged in the practice of medicine and pharmacy. The report would indicate that the larger percentage of those convicted were of the Asiatic race. It is well known to the committee that the use of opium and narcotics has come largely from China and many of that race do indulge in opium. And as a class they have been engaged in the traffic. As for the occupation of the others I have not the information and I am not sure that our files would indicate it.


Peter McGibbon: That is what I would
expect from an incompetent department such as the minister's. His department has been absolutely incompetent and absolutely sterile -absolutely incompetent to deal with the issue. I charge this government with allowing the agents of narcotic drugs to debauch the people of the country, doing it with the knowledge of the department. And they have been absolutely sterile, incompetent, and helpless as children to protect the country. I insist that we get this information before these items pass.


John Warwick King: I take entire exception to my hon. friend's statement. He has the habit of getting up and making statements without much behind them-[DOT]


Peter McGibbon: I have absolute proof.


John Warwick King: If he has information that would indicate that the officials have not been acting as they should act in the administration of the law, he should give that information. The fact that the officers have not the names or the occupations of the individuals arrested has not much to do with the administration. If my hon. friend would like to discuss any phase of the act or of the operations I should be glad to have a discussion with him. These cases, as he

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knows, are brought to the attention of the department from various sources; and when information comes to the department through our own officers, through the provincial officers, or from other sources, that information is acted upon and investigated to the limit. I can say this:	Within the last two
or three years there has been a marked improvement in the condition that formerly existed in Canada. We are told to-day that in the city of Montreal there is very little street traffic in the sale of narcotics. We know that, due to seizures made last year and convictions secured a year ago, there is today very littie of import or export traffic in Montreal, which heretofore was one of the largest drug centres. It is all right for my hon. friend to take exception; but if he will inquire into and familiarize himself with the work of the department and ascertain what has been accomplished, he will have a different story to tell. I do not know what he is referring to when he says that they are incompetent. I know I have confidence in the officers. They have worked seriously and assiduously to bring about proper results in regard to this traffic. We have had large seizures made on the western coast, and convictions obtained of men engaged in the business for many years. We have secured the conviction and imprisonment of a great many. The same is true in the city of Montreal and in Toronto. In the city of Montreal there were convictions of five years, four years and two years; I am not giving the names. In Winnipeg convictions carrying terms of three years in three cases. In Vancouver in sixteen or seventeen cases there were periods ranging from two to seven years In all there were twenty-one imprisonments in the penitentiaries.


Peter McGibbon: You cannot get away
with that for a minute. I have statistics from the: Bureau of Statistics and the minister's (department has been absolutely incompetent to deal with the question. Today narcotic drug fiends are travelling the country and selling morphine and cocaine at exorbitant price to drug addicts of the country at $25 to $50 a tube, debauching the lives of the people, and his department has never been, able to cope with it. I demand of him now to tell me how many of these fiends have been convicted under his department in the last year. I charge further that the department's officers have been taking out through the country drug addicts and feeding them on morphine and administering it to them, and going through the
country and entrapping doctors illegally. I have evidence. The minister need not shake his head. I have in under my hand, and when he shakes his head he is telling what 13 not true.


John Warwick King: I take entire ex-Jeption to my hon. friend. If he has evidence such as he speaks of he should produce it.


Peter McGibbon: I have evidence.


John Warwick King: Then produce it.


Peter McGibbon: I have evidence.


John Warwick King: I do not propose to stand for that kind of thing for a moment. I expect my hon. friend to withdraw that statement.


Peter McGibbon: I won't withdraw it.
I he CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. member really should withdraw the statement that the minister, either by word or by action, was telling an untruth. That surely is not parliamentary.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
states-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Withdraw.


John Frederick Johnston: The hon. member
should withdraw the statement.


Peter McGibbon: I am prepared to prove every statement I make on the floor of the house; I have evidence taken in the courts-


John Frederick Johnston: There is a well known rule which states that the word of any hon. member must be taken with respect to remarks made in a personal way. Certainly the remark of the hon. member was one that comes within that rule.


Peter McGibbon: Quote my remark.


John Frederick Johnston: The hon. gentleman
said that the minister in shaking his head made a statement which is untrue.


Peter McGibbon: He denied a statement
I made and my word is as good as the minister's.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Withdraw.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend, after he considers it, will withdraw. His statement is absolutely absurd. If he has evidence such as he says he should produce it, and it should have been produced before this. He wanders along. I said that the traffic had been very materially suppressed during the last two or three years. He says
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that to buy the drug in Canada costs a great deal of money-$75 an ounce.


Peter McGibbon: $25 to $50 a tube.


Robert James Manion: What proof has the minister to-day that the traffic is more or less wiped out?


John Warwick King: The report of
the police officers in Montreal is that the traffic is very much less than it was some years ago.


Robert James Manion: Why limit it to Montreal? I ask merely for information.


John Warwick King: For one reason,
Montreal has been the great centre of the drug traffic in Canada.


Peter McGibbon: It is only one centre.


John Warwick King: Just a moment; I have the floor. A year ago we were fortunate in making a very large seizure and obtaining the arrest of some very important people engaged in the traffic. To-day they are serving sentences in the penitentiary.


Robert James Manion: Laying aside Montreal for the moment, has the minister any information with regard to the rest of the country? _ Is the rest of the country improving as he claims Montreal is?


John Warwick King: Our reports say
so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There were 103 cases of seizures in Vancouver last week.


John Warwick King: Yes; Vancouver
and Montreal really have been the ports of entry. We are also informed that conditions at Windsor have improved, and generally speaking the condition throughout the country has improved. We still have the addict with us, and it is a very serious problem as to what should be done with him. Undoubtedly some provision will have to be made for these people; they will have to be taken care of, but we have reason to believe there has been a decided improvement in Canada.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Eleven o'clock.


John Frederick Johnston: Before the committee
rises I think the hon. member for Muskoka should withdraw the statement he made.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I suggest that the hon.
member be given the opportunity to see what is reported in Hansard, and I am sure if there has been a violation of the rules he will withdraw.


Peter McGibbon: I am prepared to prove every statement I made, and I will not take back anything I can prove.


John Warwick King: My hon. friend
cannot make the statement about me that I am telling untruths.


Peter McGibbon: I did not say that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We have the
assurance of the leader of the opposition that, after the hon. member has had an opportunity of looking at Hansard, if anything unparliamentary has been said he will be prepared to withdraw it. I think that is satisfactory.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Wednesday, June 6, 1928