1928-06-06

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General, transmitting supplementary estimates for the year ending March 31, 1929, was presented by Hon. J. A. Robb (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the house, and referred to the committee of supply.

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Second report of the joint committee on printing of parliament-Mr. Denis (Joliette, for Mr. Marcil).


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. E SINCL.AIR (Queens, for Mr. Kay) presented the ninth report of the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization, as follows:
The select standing committee on agriculture and colonization begs leave to submit/ its ninth report as follows:	,
Your committee have had under consideration a resolution and order of reference dated February 16, 1928, whereby it was resolved:
That whereas the protein content is an important factor in the value of wheat,
"Therefore be it resolved that in the opinion of this house, the National _ Council of Industrial and Scientific Research in conjunction with the Board of Grain Commissioners be asked to investigate and report on the feasibility of utilizing the protein content of wheat as a basic factor in the grading of that product.
And further be it resolved that this resolution be referred to the committee on agriculture and colonization for consideration and for such suggestions in connection with the grading and inspection of wheat as it deems advisable to pass on to the said national council and Board of Grain Commissioners."

Grading oj Wheat-Report of Committee
Pursuant to the said resolution and order of reference, your committee has agreed to the following conclusions, which it has passed on to the said national council and the Board of Grain Commissioners, viz:
1.	From a price standpoint baking strength is an important element in wheat, and in the Canada Grain Act definitions of our higher grades, baking strength is determined by two factors-variety and percentage of hard red vitreous kernels.
2.	In the resolution submitted to your committee it is proposed to amend the Grain Act so as to determine baking strength by the two factors-variety and quantity of protein-the latter to be determined by a chemical test and to be expressed in percentages.
3.	In Canada, Great Britain, the United States and probably most other countries that consume Canadian wheat, baking strength is an important factor in determining its value; by strength is meant the quantity and quality of protein.
4.	Except in the case of durum wheat, which at present is graded in a class by itself, and possibly one or two other varieties that are grown in relatively small quantities, the protein in the contract grades can be assumed to be of good quality.
5.	All things considered, the amount of gluten, that is, of protein, seems, in the light of present day knowledge to be the nearest approach to an ideal index of baking strength available.
6.	The cost of making the protein tests would range from 50 cents to 75 cents, and is not considered a serious difficulty notwithstanding the fact that laboratories would necessarily have to be installed at all inspection points. We would suggest that data be obtained as to cost of installing and maintaining laboratories.
7.	The time required to make an individual test would be from one and a half hours to two _ hours. However, as daylight is not required for laboratory testing, and as a large number of tests may be conducted simultaneously, under sufficient organization operating 24 hours a day, no difficulty would be encountered in testing of cars and no delay in despatching cars to terminal points may be anticipated.
8.	The definite proposal contained in the resolution could be put into effect in so far as car-lot shipments are concerned, but your committee is not yet satisfied that wheat sold locally in wagon-loads could take advantage of this scheme. A practice in vogue among members of the Kansas wheat pool whereby the farmer and elevator man forwarded samples jointly to the laboratories would seem to point the way to a solution of the difficulty concerning street wheat and this system should be investigated.
9.	The introduction of protein as a factor in wheat grading would be an incentive to grow the best milling varieties of wheat. This we consider of great importance.
10.	According to Mr. L. H. Newman, Dominion cerealist, Ottawa, and in the opinion of this committee, the following varieties are classed as desirable:-Early Red Fife. Marquis, Ruby, Red Bobs, Selections, Renfrew, Kitchener, Garnet and Reward.
11.	It is highly desirable that the cereal division of the federal Department of Agriculture, and the several provincial governments working jointly, continue in their efforts to zone Canada's wheat area with a view to advising as to the variety, or varieties, most likely to prove satisfactory in each case.
12.	So far however, as our export trade is concerned, there was not sufficient evidence submitted to the committee relative to the effect of the proposed change in the basis of grading to warrant your committee recommending its adoption at present. However, your committee recommends that a full enquiry into this phase of the question be instituted.
13.	Re: Garnet wheat-In so far as evidence would show we are of the opinion this wheat which has hitherto been excluded from No. 1 northern should be eligible for that grade.
14.	Re: Complaints of Liverpool Corn Trade Association.
Your committee believe that the complaint in the matter of No. 3 can be in some measure sustained, due principally to the inclusion in this grade of a large volume of improperly dried wheat.
Respecting the complaints regarding the general lowering of the standard of respective grades other than No. 3, we find that the evidence does not bear out this complaint.
Regarding the situation with respect to No. 3, we find that the Board of Grain Commissioners and the department are now fully alive to this situation. We recommend that steps be taken to prevent a continuation of this condition.
^ We recommend that the Department of Trade and Commerce and the Board of Grain Commissioners keep a careful check upon the quality of export wheat, and that samples of export shipments should regularly be secured and sent to the chief inspector and retained in his office for purpose of comparison; and also that the laboratory be required to make baking tests _ and report on samples of shipments regarding which complaint has been made.
15.	The committee recommends:	(a) temporary interchange of inspectors between the several inspection points in the western division.
(b) Uniformity of standards of grades from year to year is most necessary and for the purpose of comparison standard samples should be preserved for at least five years.
16.	In order that the high quality of our export wheat be maintained, and in order to discourage, as far as possible, the growth of undesirable varieties of wheat, we would urge that one or more seed warehouses be estab-lished^ for the purpose of collecting and distributing seed of approved varieties, and that an experimental flour mill of sufficient size be established in order that experimental work in milling and baking may be conducted on a scale that will give results in line with those obtained in commercial mills.
The committee would suggest that the cost of construction and equipping these facilities may well be taken from surpluses of revenue over expenditures in the administration of the Grain Act and the revenue from terminal elevators overages in the western inspection division.
17.	The committee recommends that the protein map prepared by Dr. Birchard, exhibited to the committee, be printed for distribution and that a similar map be prepared by the research laboratory for distribution as early as possible in each year.
18.	This committee recommends that inspectors be appointed at all transfer points between the head of the lakes and the seaboard, whose duty it will be to prevent any mixing of wheat so that the quality and condition of grades as fixed by final inspection will be maintained.
International Relations
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19.	Your committee recommends that the said National Research Council and the Board of Grain Commissioners report, as^ by the said resolution instructed, to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and that the said report be made before the next session of parliament.
A copy of the printed evidence taken by the committee, in respect to the foregoing subject, is appended hereto for the information of the house.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
W. F. Kay, Chairman.

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I desire to lay on the table certain correspondence with respect to the granting and withdrawal of exequaturs to consuls in Canada. This information was requested by the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa).



INDUSTRIAL AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS


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Mr. C. R. MctINTOSH (North Battleford): I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Neill:
That the fourth report of the select standing committee on industrial and international relations be concurred in.
Hon. H. H. STEVENS:: There is just one word that I should like to say in regard to this report and to draw it to the attention of the Prime Minister and the government. I am not objecting to the main sentiment expressed in the report. I think the real intention of the report is simply to indicate that there is a problem and that it should be further studied. I gather from reading the whole report that was really what the committee had in mind, but in section 2 there is a very positive declaration:
That we accept and endorse the principle of unemployment insurance.
The point I am drawing to the attention of the Prime Minister is this. It is quite true that in the subsequent paragraph that declaration is qualified by pointing out that the matter is within provincial jurisdiction and there are one or two other qualifications. For instance, the committee indicate that there is an insufficiency of data to determine to what degree unemployment exists and the committee are also unable to make any estimate of the cost. Such qualifications follow the declaration, but in my opinion a declaration of this kind going out from parliament with its unanimous endorsation will convey to the public at large the impression that parliament has endorsed and consequently will be

bound to implement by legislation a definite unemployment insurance scheme. That I think would be misleading. It ought to be made clear that such a declaration by parliament at this time is limited by the obvious limitations indicated in the subsequent paragraphs.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I agree with my hon.
friend that if it were to 'be assumed that the report carries with it an obligation on the part of the government to implement by legislation any of its resolutions or expressions of view, it would not be advisable that the report should be endorsed by the house. The government regard the statement with respect to principle as purely and simply an expression of opinion and, having regard to other phases of the report not as one imposing any obligation on the federal administration.


Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Wininpeg North Centre):: I think anyone who has read the report will recognize that whilst certain limitations are expressed with regard to the immediate adoption of the principle, whilst according to the law officers of the crown the obligations primarily rest with the provinces and whilst we have not yet sufficient information to enable us to work out a scheme, there is also in the report the opinion of the law officers that it is quite possible for us in regard to unemployment insurance to follow the lines already adopted in regard to old age pensions. Therefore it seems to me that we are not going very far in adopting this report, when, after all, we are committed under the treaty of the League of Nations to put into legislation unemployment insurance. I think that principle of unemployment insurance was adopted by the Conservative party at their last convention at Winnipeg and I hope the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) is not going back on the platform of his party. Then, may I suggest to the Prime Minister that if endorsing the report does not mean that we are going to implement it 'by legislation, we may as well kill the report to-day. We do not want to go on giving the public the impression that we are going to do something-forever expressing pious resolutions and then failing to implement them. Although I am tremendously in favour of getting something on the record with regard to unemployment insurance, if this report means simply another pious hope on the part of the government that something will at some time be done, let us to-day kill the resolution for concurrence and then the public will know where the government stands.

International Relations


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: Reading the report of the committee I find the following:
That the evidence of the Justice department makes it clear that the responsibility for such legislation rests on the provincial authorities, it being within their jurisdiction under the provisions of the British North America Act, but that it would be within the power of parliament to contribute, by grant, to such provinces as adopted such legislation, following the precedent set in the matter of technical education, highway construction, and, more recently, the Old Age Pension Act.
Then I find that section 7 states:
In order that this matter might be further dealt with, your committee recommends to parliament that at the next session this question be again referred to the committee on industrial and international relations.
I have no objection at all to adopting this recommendation. It is made clear that the matter is a provincial one. Of course the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre is a little aggressive in these matters. He would like us to enact legislation which would not be within our jurisdiction.


James Shaver Woodsworth: If the hon. member will permit me, it is also made clear by the report that it is quite competent for parliament to proceed along the lines followed in connection with old age pensions.


Ernest Lapointe: To help; to make grants. That is why the committee has reported that the matter should be further dealt with at the next session of parliament.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Quite so.


Ernest Lapointe: I do not see why we should have such an outburst on the part of the hon. gentleman.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The point is simply this. If I understood the Prime Minister aright, he was going to interpret the report that there was no obligation whatever to implement it by legislation, and I take the ground that if the report means anything, it means that we should study the problem further with a definite view of enacting legislation. If the government is not prepared to take it in that way, the government ought to make that very clear now so that the country at large can understand the situation.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think I made my position clear to my hon. friend. If he assumes that in passing the report at this time the government is obligating itself to ask the house to vote money for unemployment insurance-


James Shaver Woodsworth: No.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: -he should
understand clearly that the government would not support the report.


James Shaver Woodsworth: No, I did not suggest that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is the
point I wish to make clear.


Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Albemi):: I
think it was thoroughly understood by the committee and, I hope, by the house, that this is merely an interim report and an interim report does not carry with it any insistent demand for legislation or action forthwith by the government except to carry out the recommendations contained in the seventh paragraph that investigations be continued next year and to obtain data asked for in paragraphs five and six. I do not think it will hurt the house or the country to accept and endorse the principle. I would point out that this is no new thing. As far back as 1919, the Union government, I suppose, brought together a national industrial conference of Dominion and provincial governments with representative employers and labour men, on the subjects of industrial relations and labour laws', and for the consideration of the labour features of the treaty of Peace. That conference sat for quite a while and went very thoroughly into all phases of the question. I find that they report on some sixteen items, and the third item reads as follows:
We recommend immediate inquiry by expert boards into the following subjects, with a view to early legislation:
(a) State insurance against unemployment, sickness, invalidity and old age.
That recommendation was adopted. If that was the opinion of this conference in 1919, that an immediate inquiry should be made with a view to early legislation, I do not think we are veiy much ahead of the times when we ask, nearly ten years later, that we endorse the principle of unemployment insurance.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicatd by an asterisk.)

Mr. COOTE:: Has the government received a report from the civil service commission in regard to increased compensation for those engaged in professional and scientific work in the government service?
Questions


Mr. RINFRET:: May 21st a report was
f*rwarded by the Civil Service Commission k>
council, with reference to salary revision for the professional and scientific services.


DOMINION ELECTIONS-COST IN ALBERTA
Mr. SPENCER:: What was the cost to the government in each of the federal constituencies of Alberta in the Dominion elections of 1925 and 1926, respectively?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Electoral District	1925	1926Acadia	$ 11,926 97	$ 11,099 36Athahaska	18,425 8)	12,801 30Battle River	9,938 56	9,314 15Bow River	8,463 01	7,196 91Calgary East. . .	8,479 46	8,389 97Calgary West. . .	9,107 06	8,160 19Camrose	9,260 41	9,072 45Edmonton East. .	S,364 35	7,907 84Edmonton West. .	10,001 97	9,584 99Lethbridge	8,166 62	6,977 29Macleod	9,953 82	8,861 54Medicine Hat. . .	8.502 77	8,023 37Peace River. . . .	20.998 21	17,626 73Red Deer	'8,339 97	7,951 07Vegreville	5.863 31	5,319 99Wetaskiwin	10,378 88	10,492 23$166,171 17	$ 148,778 38


THE KING'S PRINTER
Mr. QUINN:: 1.	On what date did F. A. Acland enter the printing bureau and take up the duties of King's Printer?
2.	What age is F. A. Acland?
3.	What are the qualifications of the King's Printer?
4.	Where, at what place, and during what period of time did F. A. Acland acquire a practical or technical knowledge of the commercial and job printing trade, either as a pressman, l>ookbinder, hand or machine compositor, lithographer, engraver or any of the technical qualifications necessary to efficiently direct and manage a large printing plant, such as the printing bureau and as required by the act creating the department?
5.	How many years and during what period was F. A. Acland employed in the Labour department?
6.	What were the reasons given for his transfer from the Labour department to the printing bureau?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	Mr. 1'. A. Acland was appointed King's Printer by order in council P.C. 2038, June 15, 1921, being at that time Deputy Minister of Labour, and the appointment of King's

Printer carrying no compensation; in 1923 Mr. Acland ceased to function as Deputy Minister of Labour and, under P.C. 1727, August 27, 1923, performed only the duties of King's Printer, receiving a salary at the same rate as that paid him as Deputy Minister of Labour. On September 1, 1923, he removed his official headquarters to the printing bureau.
2.	Date of birth, August 9, 1861.
3.	Chap. 162, Sec. 7, R.S.C. 1927, reads as follows: "No person shall be appointed King's Printer unless he has been actively engaged for at least ten years in the business of printing or publishing, or in the superintendence of the printing and cognate services of the parliament or government of Canada."
4.	Mr. Acland was appointed by the government and has the necessary qualifications.
5.	March 1, 1907, to August 31, 1923.
6.	P.C. 1727, August 27, 1923, contains the following statements: "The Minister submits that experience has shown that the person charged with the duties attaching to the office of King's Printer cannot, with due regard to the public interest, give any portion of his official time to the administrative duties of another department.


JERSEY COVE, N.S., WHARF
[Stage Direction]
Mr. JOHNSTONE (Cape Breton North
Victoria):
1.	What	are	the	names	of persons	who
worked on the Jersey Cove wharf, Victoria county, during the year ending March 31, 1926, and amount paid to each?
2.	AVhat	are	the	names	of persons	who
supplied material for said wharf, and amount paid each, in 1926?
Mr. ELLIOTT:: 1:
Daniel Montgomery, foreman. ...$ 82	00
Norman MacRitchie	
40	25Malcolm MacDonald	
23	38Kenneth Maclnnis	
12	38Peter Maclnnis	
23	75Kenneth Buchanan	
32	50Murdoch MacDonald	
25	00Harry Montgomery	
38	75Daniel Smith	
21	25Daniel Buchanan	
7	50John MacDonald	
15	00Alexander Nicholson	
33	25Murdoch MacRitchie	
2	50Charlie Fader	
7	50
Questions
2.
Thomson & Sutherland	$ 25 00
Musgrave & Sons	
155	82Frank A. Bill & Sons	
41	50Murdoch MacDonald	
260	40Peter J. Maclnnis	
71	00John A. MacAskill	318	86Daniel Smith	
88	56Alexander Nicholson	
126	32Angus MacDonald	
233	80Malcolm MacDonald	
76	50Oxford Paper Co	
3	58Archie Buchanan	
464	02


MR. P. A. FORSYTH
Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenae-Addington):: 1.	Was P. A. Forsyth, postmaster at Whitney, New Brunswick, dismissed last September?
2.	If so, what were the charge or charges against him and by whom laid?
3.	Was P. A. Forsyth given an opportunity to defend himself against these charges?
4.	Did the department receive a petition signed by some 70 persons asking that Mr. Forsyth be retained as postmaster?
5.	How long had he occupied the position of postmaster ?


Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Political partisanship. By the member for the constituency.
3.	No.
4.	Petition received.
5.	Since 1st March, 1909.


ROYAL MINT, OTTAWA
Mr. MALONEY:: 1.	Under whose direction is the Royal Mint at Ottawa?
2.	Why are some employees at the Royal Mint at Ottawa given superannuation on retirement while others are given only a gratuity?


Mr. ROBB:: 1.	The Ottawa Mint is constituted as a branch of the Royal Mint by the Ottawa Mint Proclamation, 1907, and as such its administration is under the immediate control of the master of the mint and the lords commissioners of His Majesty's treasury.
2.	Appointments to the staff are made by the treasury under section 15 of the Coinage Act, 1870, which also authorizes the assignment of duties and the award of salaries. Certain posts are established, the holders of which come under the provisions of the Imperial Superannuation Acts, while other posts are unestablished, the holders not being entitled to pension but receiving under certain conditions a gratuity on retirement.
56103-240	.


MR. F. G. BRONSKILL
Mr. MALONEY:: 1.	What is the present salary of Mr. F. G. Bronskill, accountant, Department of Public Printing and Stationery?
2.	Has the King's Printer placed an increase in salary or change from Grade 5 to Grade 6 Accountant, in the main estimates for Mr. Bronskill ?
3.	What are the qualifications of the accountant, and where and when did Mr. Bronskill receive "five years" experience in the measuring and auditing of printing and binding work?
4.	Has Mr. Bronskill ever had any experience or competent knowledge of accounting or bookkeeping outside of what he has picked up in the Printing Bureau?
5.	If so, in what establishment did he serve his probationary period?
6.	Have any one of the other 31 officials whose salaries are provided for in the main estimates been recommended for a change in grade or increase in salary by the King's Printer ?
7.	Are they not considered efficient or worthy of promotion?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	$4,240.
2.	(a) No. Mr. Bronskill's salary at present is the maximum of grade 5, which is also the minimum of grade 6; no increase of salary is included in the estimates, (b) Yes. A change from grade 5 to grade 6, departmental accountant.
3.	(a) The qualifications of the accountant as provided by chap. 162, sec. 12, R.S.C., 1927, are as follows: "No person shall be appointed accountant unless he has a competent knowledge of book-keeping and accounts, and has had at least five years' experience in the measuring and auditing of printing andi binding work, either in a printing or publishing establishment, or in the service of the parliament or government of Canada." (b) In the department and during his service therein.
4.	Answered by reply to No. 5.
5.	Mr. Bronskill has had 36 years' experience in the department and is competent to perform the duties of his present position. Mr. Bronskill was appointed assistant accountant by order in council, P.C. 38/2480, September 12, 1912, and was promoted to his present position by the Civil Service Commission October 1, 1922.
6.	Others have been and will be so recommended as conditions have permitted or will permit.
7.	Answered by reply to No. 6.


MR. JOHN D. LOGAN
Mr. HUBBS:: 1. When was Mr. John D. Logan appointed to the archives staff?

International Peace

2.	What date did he leave to go to the United States^
3.	What date was his resignation received?
4.	Was he paid his salary and expenses during his absence in the United States?
5.	If so, what sum did he receive?


Mr. RINFRET:: 1.	16th February, 1925.
2.	10th September, 1926.
3.	17th December, 1927.
4.	He was paid his salary during his absence in the United States on various occasions, amounting in all to about twelve months.
5.	His salary was $2,400 per year and statutory increase in 1927.


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. CHURCH:: For a copy of all correspondence, letters, telegrams, orders in council, between the government of Canada or any member thereof, or officials and any other person or persons m reference to the development of water-power on the Seven Sisters site and Slave falls, including all correspondence with the government of Manitoba, the city of Winnipeg and all other private companies seeking to control power sites on the Winnipeg river in Manitoba.


MANITOBA PAPER COMPANY
Mr. BISSETT:: For a copy of all papers, letters, correspondence and other documents, exchanged between the government of the province of Manitoba and the hon. the Minister of the Interior, relative to the sale or proposed sale of pulp-wood in the province of Manitoba to the Manitoba Paper Company.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS-CARTAGE
Mr. HEAPS:: For a copy of any agreements or contracts entered into between the Canadian National Railways and the National Cartage Company of the city of Winnipeg.


DOMINION GOVERNMENT RENTALS-CALGARY
Mr. ADSHEAD:: For a return showing:-
1.	The buildings or parts of buildings rented by the Dominion government in the city of Calgary, Alberta.
2.	For what purpose rented.	_
3.	The annual rental of each such building.
4.	From whom rented.
5.	The date of termination of each lease.


SALARIES OF TECHNICAL AND PROFESSIONAL CIVIL SERVANTS
Mr. TOLMIE:: For a copy of recommendations re salaries of technical and professional men and women in the civil service which were handed the treasury board on May 23rd by the Civil Service Commission, and referred to by the Finance minister in the house on the 30th of May, 1928.


INTERNATIONAL PEACE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River):: I desire to direct the attention of the Prime Minister to the fact that on the 18th of May, speaking in this house in answer to a question, he stated to the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) that it was erroneous to assume that the British government could not sign the treaty of peace known as the Kellogg treaty without the concurrence of the Dominion. But on the 19th of May, Sir Austen Chamberlain, in a letter to Mr. Kellogg, stated that the treaty because of its very nature could not be participated in otherwise than jointly and simultaneously with the dominions' and India-a seeming contradiction to the Prime Minister's statement. That in itself was serious, but on the following day, May 20t.h, Sir Austen Chamberlain in a further letter to Mr. Kellogg, intimated that because England had certain interests in unspecified territories throughout the world, she would sign the treaty only on the distinct understanding that it did not prejudice her freedom of action in respect to those territories and her interest therein.
I now desire to ask the Prime Minister, because of the obvious commitments and moral obligations implied in the reservations made by Sir Austen Chamberlain, whether he would be willing to agree that this house shall have an opportunity of discussing the treaty before its ratification, and secondly, would he care to give the house a statement as to his acceptance or otherwise of the Chamberlain reservations.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In reply to my hon. friend, I would say first with respect to any alleged conflict of opinion between Sir Austen Chamberlain and myself, that I do not think there is any, I was speaking with respect to the policy of the Canadian government as to the signing of the treaty, and I indicated that, having regard to conditions of which we would wish to take account on the invitation being extended to us we would be quite prepared to sign. Sir Austen Chamberlain was speaking with respect to the position of the British government, and announcing its policy. The British government is free to pursue whatever course it wishes with respect to signing the treaty. It may have reservations which it will widh to make, and which it has a perfect right to make. As I say, Sir Austen Chamberlain has given the point of view of the British government, stating its

Civil Service-Poslal Employees
policy with respect to the invitation extended to it. I have given our point of view with respect to the invitation as extended to Canada.
As to the treaty being submitted to parliament for approval, if my hon. friend has looked over the correspondence, as I am sure he has, he will have noticed that in the reply sent to the United States, our government intimated that the treaty would be submitted to parliament for approval before ratification was recommended.
With respect to the last question of my hon. friend, as to whether this government would express any dissent or approval of the reservations suggested by Sir Austen Chamberlain, I consider that is a matter with which the British government itself should deal. I do not think we are called upon at this time to give any further expression of our views.


CIVIL SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. W. G. McQUARRIE (New Westminster) :: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Postmaster General what action has been taken in regard to the salaries of railway mail clerks and also refer him to the promise he made some time ago in relation thereto?


Hon. P. J. VENIOT (Postmaster General):: Already within the last two weeks, Mr. Speaker, I have answered that question twice. But I was further asked if the commission had given any reasons why they did not carry out the recommendations of the Postmaster General as to the increase of salaries of postal helpers, postal clerks, mail carriers and railway mail clerks, to which I answered that I had received no reasons from the commission. Since that time, however, the commission has seen fit to give reasons through the Secretary of State, and with the permission of the house I will read the reasons, which will clear up the whole situation. The letter received by me previous to this was dated May 22, which I read to the house at the time. This is dated May 23 and reads as follows:
Dear Mr. Rinfret,
In view of the discussion which took place in the House of Commons on Monday last with reference to the refusal of the Civil Service Commissioners to recommend higher rates of compensation for certain classes of employees in the postal service, the Civil Service Commissioners have prepared a brief explanation of (heir action therein, and would be pleased to have you make this explanation to the house.
On September 19th, 1927, at the request of the Civil Service Commission, the Deputy Postmaster General submitted the following suggestions with regard to maximum salary for certain classes in the postal service:
Postal clerks in grade 6 post offices and up- maximum $1,800 per annum. Present salary range $1,080-$1,740.
Postal clerks in post offices of grade 3 to grade 5-maximum $1,680 per annum. Present salary range $1,080-$1,620.
Letter carriers-maximum $1,560 per annum plus uniform and boots. Present salary range $1,080-$1,500 plus uniform and boots.
Mail porters-maximum $1,560 per annum. Present salary range $1,080-$1,500 plus uniform and boots in certain instances, and at a later date suggested an increase of $60 in maximum for the class, railway mail clerk, or a new maximum salary of $1,860, the present salary for which class is $1,080-$1,800 plus mileage.
The commission has been giving attention to the question of salaries for Post Office and Customs department classes almost continuously since April, 1924, and has in this time increased the maximum and minimum salaries for all of the classes $240, the revision of 1924 granting an increase of $180 and the revision of 1927 an increase of $60 per annum, the letter carrier receiving an extra increase of $60 in the minimum.
The commission believes that the salaries paid this class of employee are equitable and comparable with other salaries paid for somewhat similar kinds of work in other government departments and feels that if any increase is recommended for the postal classes that a corresponding increase must be recommended for Customs classes and certain classes in the Department of Immigration and Colonization, as well as for a considerable number of other classes in other departments of the government service who are engaged in work of a nature *not much different and carrying as great responsibility as that of employees in the Post Office Department.
In the opinion of the commissioners it would be entirely unfair to the Customs, Immigration and other employees with somewhat similar kind of work to perform to recommend higher rates of compensation for the postal classes without making recommendations for higher compensation for the classes in which these employees are classified.
To increase the postal employees' salaries an amount of $60 in minimum and maximum would create an additional estimated expenditure of approximately $550,000, and the additional amount required to include Customs, Immigration and other classes throughout the service which, m the opinion of the commission, should participate would cost approximately $400,000 or a total increased expenditure of $950,000.
In the commission's letter of May 2nd, 1928,-
This comes to the point brought up by my hon. friend.
-to the Post Office Department, the department was advised that the Civil Service Commission while not agreeable to raising the basic rates of pay for railway mail clerks would be pleased to further consider the question of providing by means of allowances, or by the grading of runs, higher remuneration for such railway mail clerks as have duties of higher grade than the ordinary.
3796	COMMONS
Civil Service-Postal Employees
Right here I may say that that situation is now under consideration in co-operation with the Civil Service Commission.
Attached hereto is a schedule showing in brief form the various salary _ recommendations and salary changes made in the postal classes since May 31, 1924.
The commissioners would also like to draw attention to the fact that in practically every centre in Canada the recruiting field for positions in the Post Office Department would not indicate that the salaries now paid do not render the positions desirable inasmuch as every time a postal examination is advertised there are long eligible lists of properly qualified applicants established; and that for a number of years no difficulty has been encountered in obtaining the desired number of properly qualified employees for post office positions.
Yours sincerely,
W. J. Roche.
J. Emile Tremblay.
I will not read the schedule.


William Garland McQuarrie: Does the minister intend to accept the ruling of the commission?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order. There is nothing
before the house to debate.


William Garland McQuarrie: It is just a question,
Mr. Speaker, arising out of the minister's answer. Does the Postmaster General intend to accept the ruling of the Civil Service Commission, or is he going to take any other action?	.


Peter John Veniot: What other action can I
take? We have given full power to the Civil Service Commission under the act, and if they do not recommend an increase of salaries I can proceed no further, except perhaps by way of asking for an amendment to the Civil Service Act.


Hon. W. A. BLACK (Halifax):: Mr. Speaker, I desire to ask the Postmaster General a question with regard to these railway clerks. I would call his attention to his reply to a question placed on the order paper by the hon. member for Toronto Northwest (Mr. Church). It will be found at page 2429 of Hansard for April 13, 1927. I will not read the question, which is somewhat lengthy, but here are a few words of the minister's reply:
The answer to that would be: The more or less hazardous nature of railway mail clerks' duties was taken into consideration when the original compensation schedules were fixed, and the present salary revision is not intended to alter the relativity between the compensation schedules for the different classes, but simply to provide a general increase to the service as a whole.


Hewitt Bostock: The question is rather
involved and I would advise the hon. member to put it on the order paper.


Mr. GEARY:: This need hardly go on the
order paper, if the Postmaster General will implement in one slight particular the statement he has made. In the letter he read from the Civil Service Commission there is no reference to the hazardous nature of the work of railway clerks. Was that before the Civil Service Commission?


Mr. YENIOT:: Yes; that was placed before them. In fact, I believe that in one of their letters they refer to it. I made a public statement in the house last winter as to the hazardous work and that was brought before the commission.


George Reginald Geary: And that is under consideration now?


Peter John Veniot: We are considering it at
the present time.


MR. McGIBBON-EXPLANATION
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. PETER McGIBBON (Muskoka-On-tario):: Mr. Speaker, addressing the committee last night on the narcotic drug evil-a thing that I have a very strong conviction on and also considerable information about-I regret to say that in the discussion my remarks might be construed as applying to the Minister of Health (Mr. King). That was not my intention at all, and I hope the minister will be good enough to take my word for it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Hear, hear.


Peter McGibbon: My point was that I
could not agree-and I cannot yet-that the measures to counteract the narcotic drug traffic in this country are satisfactory. That was the impression I desired to convey. However, I hope the minister will be good enough to accept this explanation.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Mr. J. C. BRADY (Skeena):: I wish to
direct the attention of the Minister of Railways to a very serious condition that prevails at Prince Rupert. I have a telegram to the effect that the day before yesterday 260,000 pounds of halibut and the following day, yesterday, 230,000 pounds, were on the market and only three cars were available, with the result that lots were drawn to see whether Canadian or American orders for halibut to be sent east would be filled. The American vessels succeeded in getting these three cars. Meanwhile the Canadian Halibut Owners'

Supply-Public Works-Ottawa
Association have had to take their fish to Vancouver and they request that the Minister of Railways immediately get cars ready to take away the heavy load of fish. They say that cars are being taken from the port to transport fruit from Okanagan. The matter is quite serious and I have tiwo or three telegrams. Will the minister be good enough to advise what should be done?
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways):	I shall be pleased to bring my
hon. friend's question to the attention of the management, who of course deal with matters of car distribution and operation generally.
I should appreciate it if he would let me have one of the telegrams.


SALE OF SCHOOL LANDS-ALBERT A
[Stage Direction]
On the orders of the day:
Henry Elvins Spencer: On
May 14 notice was given in votes and proceedings asking for copies of some seven files in the Interior department with reference to school lands. A day or so afterwards these requests were entertained by the house, and although nearly three weeks have elapsed the files have not been brought down. Some members are very anxious to have these copies of files before the Interior estimates come up. Is there any possibility of their being brought down?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am sorry the Minister
of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) is engaged at the moment in a meeting of a committee. I will direct his attention to the request and I am sure his desire will be to have the information brought down immediately. I do not know why it has been overlooked.


DEPARTMENT OP PUBLIC WORKS
[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Public buildings-Ottawa, New departmental buildings, $500,000; Parliament building, $130,000; National Research Council laboratories, $750,000.
Mr. MANION:: The hon. member for
Vancouver Centre wished to say a few words on this vote.


John Campbell Elliott: I understand he wishes to speak
in regard to the New Edinburgh mills, but that is not in this item.


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: I am very
pleased that this building is to be put up as soon as it possibly can be. I want to suggest to the minister again, as I have done in
private conversation, that it is a grave question whether that cornerstone is not too near the street. I should like to have him look into that matter again. Now that we are putting up these fine buildings for all time they should be erected a reasonable number of feet from the street. I think he should look into the matter again to make sure that the cornerstone, which I understood was only temporary but which the minister has since told me is permanent, is not too near Wellington street.
Mr. ELLIOTT; The matter is under consideration.


George Gibson Coote: Has the minister considered
securing property on Wellington street between Metcalfe and O'Connor for the purpose of putting up the new building next to the main structure, thus bringing the whole block opposite here into harmony? It would be far better than putting the new building away down where the present Bureau of Statistics stands.


John Campbell Elliott: The suggestion is by no
means a new one. The records show that in at least the last thirty years it has been put forward from time to time.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Is it the settled intention of
the government to erect the government buildings along Wellington street in a direct line? I am just wondering if the minister could not get some architectural or other expert advice in regard to a different location for these buildings.


John Campbell Elliott: I know my hon. friend's
views on the matter, because we have discussed it on different occasions, but the plan being followed by the department is one which was arrived at after a good deal of careful consideration, and it is the layout provided by a number of architects some years ago. That is what is proposed to be done in connection with this building at any rate, and I want to be frank with my hon. friend in saying that it is the intention of the government to make this the first of a series of buildings to be erected.


Abraham Albert Heaps: When the architects came
to that decision there was no idea of acquiring property in the centre of the city for the proposed park. In view of the change which has been made in the meantime does not the minister think it would be advisable to get the opinion of experts on this question, to see whether another location would not be much more desirable than the location on Wellington street, which I personally think is not the best.
Supply-Public Works


Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: I would like to ask the minister if any arrangements have been made for the purchase of the Bank of Montreal property on St. Peter street, Quebec city. I understand that the Bank of Montreal offered to sell their building to the department at a very low figure, and since the Department of National Revenue require more space in that city, that building would be a very good location for the income tax branch.


John Campbell Elliott: Some offers have been
made by the Bank of Montreal, but no decision has been made to purchase that property.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Is the minister contemplating continuing the negotiations with the Bank of Montreal? I might add that they are offering this building at about half its valuation.


John Campbell Elliott: I think it is only fair to
say that at present the negotiations, if they can be called such, are not at all active. What may happen in the future is difficult to say, but they are not progressing rapidly at present.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Is it the intention of the government to move the Bureau of Statistics permanently away from the centre of the city, or whether the new location is to be only temporary.


John Campbell Elliott: Under the present proposal the bureau must be removed from its present location in order to proceed with the construction of the departmental building. It will be placed on the property for which I hope this house will pass the estimate when we reach it, that is, the Edwards property down on the bank of the river. That is the present arrangement.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers, $2,350,000.
George Gibson Coote: I am sure we have no objection to this item, but I take this opportunity to ask the minister whether, in the interval between now and next session, he will see whether this chamber can be better lighted. I do not want to place the whole responsibility on the minister; I am afraid sometimes he thinks we bring too many requests to him, but anyone going from this chamber to the railway committee room will be struck with the better lighting which prevails there. I think it is altogether too dark here, and I am sure it could be improved if the matter were brought to the attention of the engineers.
(Mr. Heaps.]


John Campbell Elliott: I will be very glad to give the matter consideration.


Mr. FRASER:: I would like to ask the
minister a question with regard to the item:
Lower lakes terminal, $1,500,000.
Has the department decided where that money is to be spent?


John Campbell Elliott: I would say that at
present the decision is somewhat contingent upon the arrangement which can be made with the government of the United States as to the work to be done in their own channels. The government have arrived at a decision, provided suitable arrangements can be made.


George Reginald Geary: Can we not get a little
closer to it than that? If the government have arrived at a decision, providing certain arrangements can be made, I suppose the whole matter will be opened again if those arrangements cannot be made, but perhaps we might know at what decision the government have arrived?


John Campbell Elliott: I have no objection to
giving my hon. friend that information. The recommendation of the engineers is that the elevators should be placed in the vicinity of Prescott, providing satisfactory arrangements can be made with the government of the United States with regard to dredging their portion of the channel.


George Reginald Geary: I suppose that no matter
where the terminals were located some arrangement would have to be made with the United States in regard to dredging?


John Campbell Elliott: Not necessarily.


George Reginald Geary: That is the only point on
which an arrangement must be reached?


John Campbell Elliott: I think so.


George Reginald Geary: Could the minister tell us if he has any doubt whatever but that the location in the end will be, as he has indicated, near Prescott? Are the arrangements to be made of any great importance; is there any doubt about their being carried out? Are there any formidable obstacles in the way?


John Campbell Elliott: I expect that the arrangements can be carried out; I think we are reasonably certain that they will be carried out, but they have not been completed and there is always some uncertainty.


George Reginald Geary: But the minister is reasonably sure that he has settled on the location?


John Campbell Elliott: Quite so.

Supply-Harbours and Rivers


George Reginald Geary: Could he indicate when the negotiations may be expected to be concluded so that work may be commenced, and when we may expect work to commence under this item?


John Campbell Elliott: I would expect that
negotiations would be completed perhaps within the next few months.


George Reginald Geary: And I suppose work will
commence then?


John Campbell Elliott: Work will commence in
the fall or late summer, as soon as the arrangements are completed. We are anxious to get along.


John Anderson Fraser: Is it anticipated that a substantial portion of this amount will be spent this year?


John Campbell Elliott: It all depends on how
soon we get started. If we get an answer right away the greater part of this vote may be spent this fall.


George Reginald Geary: If I am not troubling the
minister too much, will this be the total cost of the work, or is this a sort of interim appropriation?


John Campbell Elliott: This is just a progress
appropriation.


George Reginald Geary: Has the minister any idea
of what the total cost will be?


John Campbell Elliott: It will be in the neighbourhood of $4,000,000.


Mr. ROSS (Kingston):: May I ask the
minister if his decision was based upon the recommendation of the three officers of the government selected for that purpose?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes, I would tell my hon. friend that that is the case.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is there any objection to the report being laid on the table?


John Campbell Elliott: I do not think there is any serious objection, except the report makes certain recommendations as to what the engineers consider should be done by our neighbours to the south. I would rather not lay it on the table unless my hon. friends insist. The matter is still one of negotiation, and I would rather leave things as they are.


Mr. SPENCE:: Is there any objection to our seeing the report?


John Campbell Elliott: Not the slightest.


Arthur Edward Ross: In case the understanding is not carried out has the government any alternative site or program, because
within a year arrangements must be made for the receipt of the grain boats coming through the new Welland canal. As the minister knows, there are certain large boats which cannot go down through the islands.


John Campbell Elliott: A number of sites were considered and reported upon, but serious consideration has not been given to any of the other sites since it has been decided to accept the Prescott site. There is so little doubt in the minds of the members of the government, as to suitable arrangements being made, that up to the present time no extended consideration has been given to any of the other sites.


Arthur Edward Ross: The decision was arrived at based upon the report of these three engineers?


John Campbell Elliott: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ellis Bay-harbour improvements, $300,000.
John Campbell Elliott: In view of the various objections which were made by members of the house, I am going to suggest that one of my colleagues move that this vote be reduced to $200,000, and that it be made conditional upon the wharf being at the disposal of the public. My information is that all boats travelling in that channel are permitted to use that wharf. It is very important as a place of shelter, and I have found, on making inquiries since the vote was up before, that about 347 vessels used it last year. This figure may not be correct as I have not the details available, but it is a very large number.
There was the further abjection raised by my hon. friends from East Calgary (Mr. Adshead) and Quebec South (Mr. Power) that the public did not have access to this private property. I think hon. merrfbers in every section of the house will understand the difficulty there is in dealing with a situation of this kind. Until 1926 this property was not utilized for anything except pleasure purposes. Since that time there has been a development there, and I think every member who considers the results derived from it must consider that it has been in the best interests of the country as a- whole. The arrangement at the present time is that 420,000 cords of pulpwood will be removed each year. Last year there were 300,000 cords removed, and a little less than that the year before, but the arrangement is that 420,000 cords will be removed this year and each subsequent year. It is thought that the growth will amount to 450,000 cords, according to the estimates of

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
the men who tramped over the area at the time of purchase. Objection has been taken to the fact that it was a privately owned island and the people who were there had not the right a British subject should have to go back and forth at will. That is largely a matter for the provincial government, but I feel that we should say to the company that we expect them to obtain for the people who are engaged there the privileges which a British subject should have. I do not think it is an unreasonable request that some hon. members of the committee make that a substantial part of this vote should stand over until another year. In the meantime, what is granted will be conditional upon the public having the use of the wharf.


Mr. DICKIE:: Is it the intention to export any of this pulpwood across the line?


John Campbell Elliott: The arrangement with the three paper companies, two at Three Rivers and one at Port Alfred, is that this pulpwood will be made into paiper at these three Canadian mills. Since the matter was before the committee before I have gone into it in a good deal of detail, and I find that the expenditure for wages during the calendar year 1927 amounts to about $2,000,000. They pay the bushmen $75 per month and board and housing in the lumber camps. They have expended nearly an equal amount in the purchase of supplies, largely from Canadian farmers. The paper to be made from this pulpwood at these three mills will run to a value of around $20,000,000 per year.


The CHAIRMAN:: When this vote was last before the committee the member for East Calgary moved that the vote be reduced by $290,000. The question is on this amendment.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: I have listened to what the Minister of Public Works has said, and I want to assure the committee that my amendment to this vote was not with the purpose of obstructing. All the discussion that has taken place, except at the present time, has been on the questions of revenue or profit, what business would be brought to the Dominion of Canada, and what revenue might be paid to the Dominion exchequer. What caused me to be so greatly interested in the matter was the utter absence of any provision for preserving the rights of the people living on the island. It is a fact that the habitants on the island, as my hon. friend from Quebec South has pointed out, have absolutely no rights as Canadian citizens. They have to buy their stores from the company at whatever prices the company sees fit to ask. Be-fMt, Elliott.]
fore I can go on to the island I have to ask permission and my business is inquired into. It is a perfect example of a benevolent Mussolini autocracy. It is quite true that the company maintains private hospitals, schools, and so forth, but it taxes the inhabitants for them and the latter do not enjoy any of the ordinary rights of Canadian citizens. The Manchester Guardian has this to say about the island of Anticosti:
Technically, Anticosti is part of Canada's domain. It is part of the county of Saguenay in the province of Quebec. But its island isolation and its exclusive ownership give it some of the qualities of an independent kingdom.
It is a kingdom within the Dominion of Canada.
In practice the control exercised by the federal authorities is casual and meagre. On Anticosti there is the autocratic government of private ownership that brooks no popular rule. The inhabitants of the island are there on sufferance; they have no voice in its rule. There is a closed door beside which that of China gapes by comparison. The Anticosti Corporation is a law unto itself; it permits entry or prohibits landing at will.
In view of the benevolent Mussolini organization which controls the island, I cannot support any grant to the corporation on the mere statement of the minister that he expects it to do so and so. I want to know first that the inhabitants of the island have the rights which they are supposed to enjoy under the British flag. The company who own the island have the Canadian flag flying over it. They like it for their own protection; they like it because they are going to get some grants of money, but the inhabitants of the island are deprived of what I would call Canadian rights. We in this corner of the house are occasionally criticized because we are analytical and critical in regard to various things and we are told that we have no constructive policy to offer in matters of this sort. Before I sit down I want to give the conditions under which I might support any grant to the island. I will not support it on the statement of the minister that he will tell the company: We expect you to do so and so. I want to know that it is being done before one dollar more of Canada's money is handed over to the corporation which owns the island. I am glad to see that the Minister of Public Works has taken into consideration the question of the right of any Canadian vessel to enter that harbour and to use the wharf subject to whatever government dues there may be, if there are any. It is not good enough for me to have the Minister of Public Works state that he will request or expect the company

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
to do so and so. I must 'be satisfied that the inhabitants have the rights which Canadian citizens enjoy. Therefore I make four propositions and if they are accepted and1 put into force I shall be prepared to support a grant of $100,000. The propositions are as follows:
1.	That all vessels shall have the right of use of the harbour and wharf, paying dues as per government schedule, if there are any. The minister has provided for that.
2.	That the district known as the residential part shall be surveyed and incorporated as a town in the province of Quebec, not as a private town owned by a private company but as an incorporated town with all the rights of a town.
3.	That the residents of the aforesaid residential district shall have the same rights and privileges of self-government, free speech and assembly and industrial organization as Canadians enjoy in any other town in Quebec.
4.	That as far as that part of the island known as the town is concerned, any person shall have the same free right of entry as to any other Canadian town.
In other words, when I visit Quebec or Montreal I enter as a Canadian citizen and I am not questioned as to what I want there. I have the right to go there and any Canadian citizen should have the right to visit that town and to transact business there without being questioned or, if the company do not like him, being told to make himself scarce. If they expect a grant of Canadian money-and the inhabitants of the island are contributing part of that money by their work-I would suggest that all the inhabitants should have the same Canadian rights as we have. If these conditions are imposed and enforced before a dollar of the grant is paid over, I will support the grant, but otherwise I cannot support it.


George Halsey Perley: I know it has
been the policy of the Public Works department under both administrations to give assistance to companies that have started enterprises on navigable waters. I know of several rivers in Quebec where enterprises have been started and work given to the public and where there has been need of dredging or building wharves to carry on the business. In such cases the Department of Public Works has been in the habit of giving assistance in that connection and, I think in most cases, quite proper. But I want to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that in nearly all of these cases the work is going on in a place where people are already living and where the land is owned by various people
and not all by one company. I consider this Anticosti island is in a class by itself. The island is owned entirely by the corporation and I do not see any public interest to justify the Department of Public Works in paying part of the expenses of doing that business. These companies are powerful companies who are doing good work; they have bought the island purely for private gain, and the construction of wharves and the dredging done at the island are entirely for their own use. The public get no use out of this at all. It seems to me that the company ought properly to stand all the cost required to enable them to develop the resources of the island and to take the pulpwood away. I do not see why the Department of Public Works should vote all this money for purely private purposes. There is no other object in this expenditure than to enable these companies to make money out of their pulpwood and therefore it seems to me that the minister is going in the wrong direction. I do not think the precedents of other votes to enable enterprises to get started apply in this instance at all. Further than that, as I understand the matter-and if I am wrong the minister will put me right-this island being entirely private property, works built on it will really belong to the company. That is to say, nominally they will be the property of the Dominion government, but as a matter of fact they will be used only by the company except in a few instances such as the minister has mentioned where they may be used for shelter in case of storm. Therefore I see no justification for any of this vote. It is purely for the purpose of putting money into the pockets of the people who own the island.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: May I ask the minister if any money has previously been expended on Anticosti island at Ellis bay for harbour or dredging purposes?


John Campbell Elliott: The amount spent by the company runs close to $2,500,000. The company built the wharf entirely at their own expense. It is an excellent wharf, and as the engineer says, it is so situated that:
This development scheme will be a great aid to shipping in the gulf of the St. Lawrence as it is proposed to make Ellis bay the provision centre for ships in the gulf where coal and fresh water will be obtainable at the new wharf. There will also be adequate protection for shipping in bad weather and a sea-going tug will be kept on hand to render assistance to ships in distress in the gulf.
What my hon. friend says about assistance in other cases is quite true. For years back the government has endeavoured to encourage

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
development along proper lines of industrial activity, either by building the wharf and doing the dredging, with the company bearing part of the cost, or the company building the wharf and the government doing the dredging. But in this case the cost of the wharf is so much out of proportion to the cost of the dredging that the department, after very careful consideration, decided that it was only fair to do the dredging. It is to be done in the main channel of the St. Lawrence, and the company itself has no jurisdiction in the channel; it could not do the dredging. The work is also of value, as I have said, from the standpoint of a shelter for ships in that part of the St. Lawrence, which as my hon. friends all know is a pretty difficult part so far as navigation is concerned. I am told that last year one boat was able to avail itself of the shelter of this dock, with the result that possibly the lives of the crew on the boat, numbering twenty-eight, were saved, so that it is valuable from the standpoint of protection to those who have to travel these waters. The fact that the company have expended $2,500,000 made the department feel that it was not doing any more in this case, nor for that matter bearing as large a proportion of the general expense, as has been done in other cases. I think this is good business; it is a development that should be encouraged, and I think the company is doing a fair proportion of the work.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: Possibly the minister
did not quite understand my question. I know personally that this company has spent a considerable amount of money on the island for wharves and other purposes, but what I wanted to know was if the Department of Public Works had already spent any money for harbour or dredging purposes on the island.


John Campbell Elliott: No, except what has been done under this contract last year.


Henri-Edgar Lavigueur: What was the amount spent?


John Campbell Elliott: The amount of work that has been done is $187,000.


George Halsey Perley: What is the total amount?


John Campbell Elliott: Just about half a million
dollars.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The Minister of Public
Works has dealt with certain aspects of this question, but has not touched upon one or two points that have been raised by the hon.

member for East Calgary which are of great importance to this country, and on which he ought to give us a little more definite assurance than he has so far done this morning.
At the present time there are no public highways in Anticosti. I understand that the island is about the size of the whole province of Prince Edward Island, and that the owners of the island could debar anyone from walking in any part of that large domain. There are no public health regulations, and no laws pertaining to sanitation. All these questions are of vital importance. There is no such thing as law and order on that island, and so far as law and order is concerned it can be run just as suits the company best. I think under these circumstances, before one cent of assistance is given by the government, we should receive the definite assurance from the minister that all these matters !l have mentioned will be looked after and put on the same footing as in other parts of Canada. I believe also that the owners of the island control the landing privileges, and consquently the landing of vessels there would depend on the goodwill of the owners of the island. That is not as it ought to be. If we are going to give grants, we ought to have something to say as to the wages that shall be paid and the working conditions that shall prevail. I believe that the company could, if they wished, and it has been done in other parts of the country, prevent a man going on the island to organize the workers into what I might call a legitimate trades union. Company towns in Canada have done that .within recent times; and we migffit find that a person who wanted to land on the island would get no farther than the wharf. I want him to have permission to go to any part of the island, just as he could to any part of the city of Montreal or the city of Quebec. I wish the minister would rise in his place and assure the house that none of this money will be granted by the government until they have the assurance from the owners that all these matters will be put on a proper footing.


Mr. CANNON:: As a representative of the district where the island is situated, I want to say just a few words. The hon. member for Argenteuil has pointed out that, after all, whatever is done on this island is done for the pecuniary benefit of the company which is operating on the island. Well, that applies to all companies. Companies are not philanthropic associations; they are in business for a profit, and this organization on the island is in the lumbering business for

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
the purpose of making a profit to be distributed among its shareholders, just like any other company in Canada.
The dredging which the government is now proposing to do is necessary in order to connect the main channel in the river St. Lawrence with the wharves of the company. These wharves were built and paid for entirely by the company, and if my information is correct over one million dollars has been expended by the company for new wharfage accommodation. Is it reasonable after a company has gone to that expense that the government of Canada should disregard that large industrial development, and refuse to do anything whatsoever in assisting in that development, when the government does it everywhere else in Canada? If the government refuse, there is no other authority except the authority which lies with this parliament and with this federal government to do that dredging. No private corporation can dredge in the river St. Lawrence.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Could they not dredge with the consent of the government?


Lucien Cannon: Probably they might, but would that principle be adopted by parliament? Could the principle be defended before this house of allowing private individuals or private corporations to start dredging in the river St. Lawrence? It is a public channel.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Under the control of the government, I said.


Lucien Cannon: I do not think it would be a good principle to allow individuals to start dredging in the river St. Lawrence, which is the most important channel of navigation we have. This has to be done by the government.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Why?


Lucien Cannon: Why? In the same way that we cannot allow individuals to do construction work on railways. Our railways, as well as the river St. Lawrence, have to be under the control of a central authority.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Was not that principle adopted by the government in the case of some survey work last year in northern Manitoba, where the government did the work but the bills were paid by the Manitoba Paper Company, which would profit by the survey?


Lucien Cannon: It might be so; but my hon. friend would not for one moment compare surveying territory in Manitoba with allowing private corporations to dredge in the river St. Lawrence and interfere with navigation.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Why not?


Lucien Cannon: Now, Mr. Chairman, the question has been raised of this island being private property-


Mr. CAMPBELL:: Could not the work be done by the government and be paid for by the company?


Lucien Cannon: Yes; that principle was adopted somewhere else. We made arrangements with other companies whereby the government paid two-thirds of the cost of the work and the company one-third. But, as has been pointed out by the Minister of Public Works, in this particular work the company has already expended over two million dollars in building wharves. In the other instances where the cost of the dredging was shared by a company and the government the wharves as a rule were built by the government itself.


James Shaver Woodsworth: A moment ago the minister said it was done for profit not for philanthropy.


Lucien Cannon: I mean lumbering is a commercial enterprise; there is no doubt about that. Now, as to this island being in the hands of a private company. Well, first of all we must bear in mind that that company bought the rights of Senator Menier. The senator derived his rights from the Coffin estate. This island of Anticosti is in a seigneury.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The feudal system.


Lucien Cannon: We have to take things in this country as they are. We have other seigneuries in the province of Quebec.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Is that Liberal
doctrine?


Lucien Cannon: It is not my fault if three hundred years ago the king of France granted seigneuries;-


James Shaver Woodsworth: But there is something to be said-


Lucien Cannon: -and there is such a thing in this country as vested rights.


James Shaver Woodsworth: We understand that is Liberal doctrine too.


Lucien Cannon: Would my hon. friend for one moment contend that on account of a special system of land tenure having been

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
established in this country over three hundred years ago, we are to change that now? Coming to my last point, I want the members of the committee to bear in mind that in the case of land tenure we immediately enter a field which is altogether provincial. We cannot do anything even if we wanted to. My hon. friend from Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) mentioned "Liberal doctrine". There is one principle of Liberal doctrine that he will subscribe to-the autonomy of the provinces. Well, if we are to respect provincial autonomy we have to keep away from property and civil rights.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Does the hon. minister suggest that the principle of autonomy means that we have to make this grant?


Lucien Cannon: I do not think my hon.
friend is putting that question seriously.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I am putting it
seriously. Let me ask the question this way: Simply because a king of France three hundred years ago granted a seigneury, does it mean that now industrial development has taken place we in Canada must make money grants to a company which is attempting to exploit that island?


Lucien Cannon: My hon. friend has misunderstood me. I am not arguing in favour of this grant because the island is a seigneury, but I am answering the argument of my hon. friend that before we do any dredging we ought to change the land system on this island. I say we cannot change it because it is not within the competence of this parliament. The provincial government has sole jurisdiction as to property and civil rights.
Now, Mr. Chairman, the conditions on this island are not as bad as they have been described, for if they were people would not go there. If the people were treated in such a way as to recall feudal days, as has been said in this house, how could they be induced to go and work there? The people are absolutely free to go or not to go. No one can force them to go and work on that island if they do not want to.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Economic necessity drives
them to work there.


Lucien Cannon: No economic necessity will drive people from the province of Quebec, as I know them, to become slaves. I am aware how the business on this island is carried on. Every fall when the people leave the city of Quebec to work on the island they go there as free men, and they come back as free men.


George Halsey Perley: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interrupt, but may I ask the Solicitor General a question? I quite understand that people are not obliged to go to the island against their will; but can anybody go there without a pass from the company?


Lucien Cannon: Certainly.


George Halsey Perley: Is anybody permitted to land there without having a permit or pass from the company?


Lucien Cannon: Certainly; over three hundred vessels went there last year.


George Halsey Perley: That does not
answer my question.


Lucien Cannon: How could three hundred vessels go there if people were not allowed to land?


George Halsey Perley: They got permits.


Lucien Cannon: My hon. friend has experience in the lumber business-


George Halsey Perley: I should like an answer to my question.


Lucien Cannon: I will answer the question. My hon. friend has had experience in that line of business. Would he contend for one moment that the holder of a license to cut timber in the province of Quebec or the province of Ontario, even though he is not the owner of the soil, would allow the public generally to roam through his limits and endanger them? He would not. It is not done anywhere. My hon. friend knows that. Timber holders protect their property. Why should not the owners of Anticosti protect their property also?


James Shaver Woodsworth: What civil rights
have those workmen from Quebec on Anticosti island?


Lucien Cannon: I can tell my hon. friend that the people of Quebec protect themselves and their rights.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That is not an
answer to my question. I ask:	What civil
rights have the workmen from Quebec on Anticosti island?


Lucien Cannon: They have the same rights as other labour men throughout Canada.


James Shaver Woodsworth: No.


Lucien Cannon: The provincial government of Quebec would not allow to. prevail on the island the condition of things which has been described in this house and in certain newspapers. That is not the kind of government we have in Quebec.

Supply-Harbours and Rivers


James Shaver Woodsworth: Are the conditions
described by the member for Quebec South (Mr. Power) wrongly described?


Lucien Cannon: To a certain extent they
are. My hon. friend from Quebec South has experience in the way timber companies conduct business. He knows that whaJt the people at Anticosti do is simply to protect t'heir property as every other company does. I am fully confident that should the employees of that company consider themselves not treated as they ought to be, as regards municipal organization or otherwise, they know what to do. They have one authority to whom they can appeal any time, any dby, any month, and that authority is not the Dominion parliament; it is the provincial legislature and the provincial government, the government of the province of Quebec. And knowing the prime minister of the province as I know him, I have no doubt justice will be done to the people of Anticosti as justice is done to all people in our province. Moreover, if the people were not satisfied either with this government or with the provincial government the courts of the province are there to protect the rights of all citizens; and what shows that conditions on the island in no way approximate the conditions that have been described is the fact that no action ever has been taken at any time in the courts by anyone.


Abraham Albert Heaps: How far away is Anticosti island?


Lucien Cannon: Anticosti island is not at the north pole; it is in the district of Charle-voix-Saguenay. We have an organization in Quebec which extends throughout the province and these people are not isolated. I submit these facts: First, we are doing for this company what has been done for others in many instances; secondly, as regards the amount, as the Minister of Public Works has suggested, it might be reduced to cover the work actually done this year; thirdly, the proper authority to deal with the matter is the provincial government and the provincial courts and not the federal government; and in the fourth place, speaking from my own personal knowledge, you will never find people from Quebec going to work on that island to become slaves, for they would not go there if the company did not treat them properly.


Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: I want to
congratulate the Solicitor General on the over-shadbwing influence of his very strong and aggressive personality on the Minister of Public Works. He is entitled to that tribute, and I only wish I could enlist his services in regard to another island which happens to be situated
in the St. Lawrence river, which is opposite Kingston, and which is known by the name of Simcoe. That little island is peopled by a population entirely of farmers. A couple of years ago when the ice on the St. Lawrence went out it carried away their wharf and since that time they have been asking, and I have been asking on their behalf, for a little consideration in order to have a wharf built to enable vessels to come in there and give the farmers of the island some service. For the last two years the farmers of the island have been unable to market their stock, their hay or anything else until nature has provided them with a bridge by freezing over the river. In the summer months they cannot get off at all. The people of the island have not been asking for $300,000 nor $100,000 nor $1,000. They sary, " If you will give us six or seven hundred dollars we are so anxious to have the wharf, which means so much to us, that we the farmers of the island will give our own work gratis. Let the department send their man down to supervise the work and we will not ask pay for what we do in building the wharf ". All these people ask for is six or seven hundred dollars. Can I get the ear of the government in that respect? Can I get any assistance from the hard-hearted Minister of Public Works? He does not look hard-hearted, but he is apparently extremely hard-hearted and absolutely callous, indifferent and hard-shelled, unless someone with the engaging personality of the Solicitor General can approach him, and then they can get anywhere up into six figures for anything at all, no matter where it is. But the farmers on that island have received no consideration whatever from this government. This government can tear down half the city of Ottawa to satisfy the ambitious whims of the right hon. the Prime Minister to make a monument for himself in the shape of what I suppose we shall in years to come call King's park. The government can give hundreds of thousands, millions in that way but the farmers on this island cannot even get six or seven hundred dollars to put up a wharf to enable them to market their produce in summer. They must wait until the ice comes and the good Lord provides them with a bridge so that they can get off the island. But $300,000 is nothing in Anticosti, away in the gulf, where even ordinary citizens are restricted in their rights to go and come, everything being under the control of one corporation. The government can spend this money now' to provide them with what they need, and when the timber is cut off the island they can move off. I should not

Supply-Harbours and Rivers
be doing my duty if I did not point out to this committee and to the house the absolutely unfair position which the government has taken in regard to some of these small amounts which are rightly asked for by people in various parts of the Dominion. No consideration whatever is given these demands. It is not a question of the rights of the case; it is a question of these people having sent to this parliament a member who sits on this side of the house instead of on the other side. That is the long and short of it; that is the size of it; that is the big and little of it, and it is mostly little.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: When my hon. friend made his unkind reference to myself I was on the point of getting up to support him. I think he has made a fairly strong case for the people of whom he speaks, and if I can be of assistance to him I shall be glad to do what I can.


John Wesley Edwards: When I paid a tribute to the Solicitor General I appreciated his influence and his engaging personality. But if I am to have the assistance of the right hon. the Prime Minister, then I must say, with all due deference to the Solicitor General, that I should prefer help from the right hon. gentleman.


Mr. POWER:: 
Lucien Cannon: If my hon. friend will allow me, I did not say they only had the rights of other timber limit holders. I said they had greater rights, but I compared the way the ordinarj' timber limit holder with inferior rights treated the general public.


Charles Gavan Power: I understood the Solicitor General to say that ordinary persons were not permitted to cross the territory of timber limit holders in the province of Quebec. Having been connected for a long time with people who were timber limit holders and having brought my hon. friend fishing within those limits. I know that they permit certain kinds of people to cross their limits at all events. Perhaps that was because I was with him, but at any rate I must say that the rights of timber limit holders in the province of Quebec are not the feudal rights exercised by the Anticosti Corporation.
At one o'clock the committee took recess..

Immigration-Report oj Committee
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would like to have the unanimous consent of the house to enable the chairman of the committee on agriculture and colonization to present a report.
The Speaker resumed the chair and the house reverted to the order of motions.


IMMIGRATION
[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. F. KAY (Brome-Missisquoi), presented the tenth report of the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization, as follows:
The Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization begs leave to present its tenth report as follows:
Pursuant to an order of reference dated Monday, February 20, 1928, your committee took into its consideration the Immigration Act and regulations thereunder, and the general subject of immigration including the work of the Department of Immigration and Colonization.
Your committee has held 36 sittings and has called before it the following 29 witnesses, namely:
Hon. Robert Forke, Minister of Immigration and Colonization.
W. J. Egan, Deputy Minister of Immigration.
A. L. Jolliffe, Commissioner, Department of Immigration.
Dr. J. A. Amyot, Deputy Minister, Department of Health.
Dr. D. A. Clark, Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Health.
W. J. Black, Director of Colonization, Canadian National Railways.
J. S. Dennis, Director of Colonization, Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
.T. N. K. Macalister, Assistant Director of Colonization, Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
Sir Henry Thornton, President, Canadian National Railways.
E. W. Beatty, President, Canadian Pacific Railway Company.
Canon Vernon, Church of England.
Canon Burd, Church of England, Saskatchewan Synod.
Miss Gertrude Childs, Secretary of the Social Welfare Commission of Winnipeg.
Sir Joseph Flavelle, Toronto.
Albert Chamberlain, President, British Welcome and Welfare League of Toronto.
Hugh Farthing, Representative of the British Empire League of Canada.
Professor H. Barton, Dean of the Faculty of Agriculture, McGill.
Hon. George Langley, Regina.
Miss N. E. Mackie, former Immigration and Colonization worker.
C. A. Magrath, Toronto.
Col. James Stibbard of the British Permanent Forces.
Col. T. R. Tudge of the Salvation Army.
Staff Captain Owen Culshaw of the Salvation Army.
M. J. Coldwell, Regina.
Hon. Mr. Manion, M.P.
Hon. E. J. McMurray, Winnipeg.
M. N. Campbell, M.P.
Lieut.-Col. Cecil G. Williams of the Navy League.
George H. Corbet, representing several Social Service Welfare Societies of Montreal.
In addition to hearing the foregoing witnesses your committee took under consideration resolutions and petitions submitted by various organizations throughout the country.
Your committee begs leave to report its conclusions and recommendations as follows, namely:
Conditions under which Citizens of various Countries are admitted to Canada
The committee is convinced that there is considerable misapprehension and lack of information regarding conditions on which persons from different parts of the world are admitted to Canada. In order to remove this misapprehension and to have a clear background on which to base any recommendation, the committee gives the following brief summary.
British
1.	All British subjects from the United Kingdom or from any of the British dominions are eligible to enter Canada, provided they are sound mentally and physically and in a position to maintain themselves until employment can be secured.
No passport is required.
The passage rate for immigrants from the British Isles generally is $91.25.
2.	British agricultural workers are specially encouraged by the establishment of a low rate of $9.73 at the instance of the Canadian government.
3.	British domestic workers are also provided for at the same rate as agricultural workers and in special cases even this small amount is advanced as a loan.
4.	Families of British agricultural workers who have already emigrated to Canada are given the benefit of the special rate of $9.73 for adults and free passage to all children under seventeen. In this case, also, loans are made in special cases to provide for the transportation of such families.
5.	British children over fourteen and under seventeen who are brought into Canada under the auspices of certain juvenile societies, have their passages paid; and an additional amount is paid to such societies to cover the railroad fares and incidental expenses of such children.
6.	British boys over fourteen and under seventeen years of age, emigrating to Canada to approved farm homes, receive free passage to their destination.
Northern European Countries - (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Belgium and France).
Any subjects or citizens of these countries are eligible for entry to Canada provided they are sound mentally and physically and are in a position to maintain themselves until employment can be secured.
These people are required to have passports.
The average minimum ocean rate is approximately $120.
3808	COMMONS
Immigration-Report of Committee
No special rate or assistance of any kind is given by the Canadian government to subjects or citizens of these countries.
Central and Southern European countries- (Austria, Hugary, Poland, Roumania, Lithunia, Esthonia, Latvia, Bulgaria, Jugo-Slavia, Czechoslovakia) .
Only agricultural workers, domestic servants or those within a prescribed degree of relationship to residents already legally admitted to Canada are permitted to come in from these countries. Special exceptions may be made in cases in which the Minister of Immigration is satisfied that their labour or service is required in Canada.
These people are required to have passports.
The average minimum ocean rate is approximately $135.
No special rate or assistance of any kind is given by the Canadian government to subjects or citizens of these countries.
United States.
All citizens of the United States are eligible to emigrate to Canada provide they are sound mentally and physically and in a position to maintain themselves until employment can be secured.
No passport is required.
From the above it will be seen that emigrants from the United Kingdom stand in a specially favourable position as compared with emigrants from continental countries, not only with regard to general passage rates but particularly with respect to the very greatly reduced rates given to agricultural and domestic workers from the United Kingdom.
For the further encouragement of British immigration the following schemes for land settlement should be noted:-
3,000 Family Scheme.
British families have been brought out to Canada at a special steamship rate, and they are located by the Canadian government on vacant soldier settlement lands. The British government supplies to each such family a maximum of $1,500 cash for stock and equipment. All repayments are made by the settler for the price of the farm and for the stock and equipment loan, in equal yearly instalments, during a period of twenty-five years at the low interest rate of 5 per cent. The Canadian government provides additional assistance by way of selection, settlement and supervision, free of charge.
British-Dominion-Provincial Land Settlement Scheme.
Under this scheme the provincial government provides the farm. The British government supplies $1,500 for stock and equipment. The Canadian government recruits the settler and provides settlement and supervision, free of charge, and, in addition, shares on a 50-50 basis any loss on account of stock and equipment. In the event of the default of a settler within the first two years the loss of interest on account of the purchase price of the land is shared on
the following basis:
[Stage Direction]
Provincial government	25	per	centDominion	
25	per	centBritish	
50	per	cent
This scheme has already been adopted by two of the provinces and negotiations are now being carried on with another province.
Training and Placement of British Boys in Farm Homes.

Selected boys are given free passage from the United Kingdom to Canada, and institutions known as "training farms" are established by several provinces for receiving these British boys and distributing them among approved farm homes. The Dominion and provincial governments each contribute $10 per boy towards the operation of the farm, and the British government makes a grant of $20 for the same purpose.
Land Settlement for British Boys.
The object is to establish on farms of their own, British boys who have come to Canada, and who have acquired the necessary experience in farm work, and who have each saved $500. Under this scheme the British government loans $1,250, the Dominion government $1,000, the provincial government $250 and these loans, with the boy's savings, aggregate $3,000 which is available for his settlement on the farm.
To indicate the importance of this work the British and Canadian governments have entered into an agreement to spend $5,000,000 during the next ten years in making such loans.
As illustrating the special efforts put forward to encourage British immigration, the evidence shows that the Canadian Department of Immigration spends in this work $16.67 for each British immigrant as compared with an average cost of 11 cents per head for immigrants from the continental countries.
The committee heard evidence in detail respecting the organization of the Department of Immigration, and concerning all phases of its activities as carried on both separately and in conjunction with many governmental and voluntary organizations, and in relation thereto the committee makes the following recommendations and suggestions.
Federal Responsibility.
In the opinion of the committee the responsibility and control of the selection of immigrants, no matter by whom recruited must rest solely and exclusively with the government of Canada.
Provincial Co-operation.
The committee recommends that special efforts be now made to extend the field of activity of the provincial authorities particularly in the matter of placement, settlement and supervision of immigrants, and that, with this in view, the federal government consider contributing to defray the cost of provincial co-operation for that purpose.
Medical Examination
There have been complaints about the new system of medical inspection under which Canadian doctors conduct the medical examination of prospective immigrants in the United Kingdom. It appears that this new system was inaugurated as a result of representations made to the Department of Immigration by steamship companies, by provincial governments, by the Dominion Council of Health, and by other social service organizations.
Several reasons were urged in favour of the change:
1.	Great hardship was imposed on the immigrant who had been passed by the medical inspectors in the United Kingdom and then upon coming to Canada was subsequently rejected on arrival or after admission.
2.	A large number of deportations have taken place on account of the mental or physical w

Immigration-Report of Committee
fitness of those who had been passed as mentally and physically fit before leaving the United Kingdom.
3.	The proportion of immigrants committed to mental institutions in Canada has been excessive.
The new system affords free medical examination of prospective immigrants by Canadian doctors before they take passage for Canada. Twenty-one Canadian doctors and forty-five roster doctors are conducting medical inspection in the British Isles, and there are 332 centres where medical examinations are conducted, and, in addition, special provisions are made for medical examination in isolated communities.
On the continent there are seven Canadian doctors whose work is confined to examining all immigrants at the continental ports of embarkation. Previous to this examination by Canadian doctors the continental immigrant is subjected to a medical examination near his home under the auspices of the steamship company. Quarantine, fumigation and other precautions are exacted at the continental ports of embarkation in addition to the medical examination by the Canadian doctors.
The suggestion was made that the volume of emigration from the British Isles to Canada was being reduced by the new medical arrangement, but the evidence showed that there has been a greater decrease in emigration from the British Isles to the other overseas dominions and to the United States.
The committee was impressed with the fact that the_ medical officers to whom is entrusted the medical examination of intending emigrants have a serious responsibility to Canada, not only to the federal government but also to the provinces. It is their duty to ascertain that intending emigrants are physically and mentally fit to take their places and do their share as Canadian citizens. In this connection, and more particularly with regard to immigration from the continent of Europe the committee quotes the resolution passed by the Social Service Council of Canada at its meeting recently held in Montreal as follows:
"The Social Service Council of Canada having in mind the burden now laid on the various provinces^ of Canada in providing for the idiots and the insane, and the unfortunate results of admission into this country of the moron and feeble minded, desires to urge upon the federal government a continued and strict adherence to the provisions of the Immigration Act, in order that the door may not be open for the entrance of these types of prohibited undesirables."
_ Owing to the present arrangements a considerable amount of misunderstanding and dissatisfaction has arisen during the transition period. Certain objections were mentioned by witnesses, some of which have already been 'remedied. The present system of medical examination in the British Isles was inaugurated primarily for the benefit and protection of the British emigrant. The Department of Immigration and Department of Health should, it is considered, make the most exhaustive efforts to see that the new system is perfected so as to eliminate, as far as possible, inconvenience, delay and expense to the prospective emigrant, and to dispel the idea that there is any intention, on the part of the Canadian government, to restrict or hinder the coming to Canada of British subjects. For this
purpose the committee recommends that the present system would be improved and that it would obviate delay and inconvenience to the prospective emigrant, especially those who reside in the rural districts of the British Isles, if the medical examinations were made by British local doctors paid by, and under the supervision and control of, the Canadian medical authorities, who should be located at convenient centres of population.
Special Passage Rates for British Settlers
1.	'Teen Age.
The Committee approves of all previous efforts to promote and encourage 'teen age immigration from Great Britain and recommends that the age limit for boy immigrants be extended to boys 14 to 19 years of age, both inclusive.
2.	Domestics.
That the arrangements now in effect for the movement of domestics from the United Kingdom to Canada be continued.
3.	Family Re-union.
That measures be taken to extend the assisted passage privileges to the families of immigrants from Great Britain who are now in Canada and who have so far established themselves as to have a reasonable prospect of being able to support their families in this country.
4.	Reduction in Ocean Rates for all British
Immigrants.
That measures be taken at an early date to arrange a conference between the federal and British governments and the Atlantic steamship companies with the object of obtaining a reduction in ocean rates to British immigrants to approximately £10.
Railway Rates for Canadian Landseekers
The committee also recommend that measures be taken to ascertain whether the railways will restore the home seekers rates in effect prior to the war. making such rates effective east-bound as well as westbound.
Land Settlement
1.	The committee having heard the evidence in connection with the experiment of the 3,000 Settlement Scheme, now almost completed, recommend that time be given to test this form of land settlement before embarking upon extended schemes of this character.
2.	The committee approve of the extension to other provinces of the tripartite agreement with the British, federal and provincial governments for the encouragement of land settlement by the British emigrant.
3.	The committee recommend, subject to the completion of satisfactory arrangements with governments of the provinces, that assistance equal to that given by the British government to British emigrant boys be extended by the government of Canada to the Canadian youth who are trained in agriculture.
Letters of Assurance of Employment "Permits"-so-called
Your committee recommend that letters of assurance of employment shall state the names, addresses, occupations and nationality of the persons to be admitted and that an annual return be made by the Minister of Immigra-
3EVISED EDITION
3810	COMMONS
1mmigration-Report oj Committee
tion to parliament within thirty days of its meeting, giving particulars of all such letters, showing the names of persons so admitted, their addresses, occupation and nationality, the names and addresses of the persons who made the application for each such admission and of any other person who endorsed or made favourable representation in support of such application.
Railways' Continental Agreement There was in the evidence, considerable criticism of certain features of the railways' agreement. The committee has some doubts as to the desirability of giving to the railways special authority to recruit immigrants, but as certain restrictions were imposed in connection with the renewal of the agreement in October, 1927, the committee is of the opinion that in order to ascertain the results of its operation under the ne\v conditions, the present agreement might be continued according to its terms, but with this exception-that the system of nominations of immigrants from non-preferred countries under the railways' agreement should be confined forthwith to the following degrees of relationship; father or mother, husband or wife, son or daughter, brother or sister of any individual who is now engaged in farming in Canada, and further that the existing railways' agreement should not be renewed in its present form.
Increasing Employment Your committee would also recommend that the government make an intensive and comprehensive study of the possibilities of increasing industrial and agricultural development in Canada with a view' to attracting capital and providing wider and increased opportunities for employment not only for our own people, but for prospective immigrants.
Your committee recommends that 1,500 copies in English and 500 copies in French of the minutes of evidence and of this report, be printed in blue book form and that standing order 64 be suspended in relation thereto.
A copy of the minutes of procedure and evidence is appended hereto for the information of the house.
All of which is respectfully submitted.
Chairman.

[Stage Direction]
The house in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Mines
For investigation of mineral resources and deposits; of the mining and metallurgical industries, and of mineral technology:	wages,
expenses of testing and research laboratories, investigation by Dominion Fuel Board, including salaries and all other expenses, $200,000.
For operation of peat bog at Alfred, Ont., $50,000.
For publications. English and French, purchase of books, laboratory supplies, instruments, miscellaneous assistance and contingencies, $45,000.
For transportation charges from outlying provinces on ore shipments which may be sent

to the ore dressing plant of the mines branch at Ottawa for testing purposes, under regulations approved by the Minister of Mines, $1,000.
To compensate J. H. Fortune for quarters, fuel, light and water supplied him as resident caretaker of the mines branch building, Sussex st., vacated because of the necessity of utilizing the caretaker's quarters for storage and laboratory space, $400.-Total, $296,400.
John Anderson Fraser: Why the decrease in this
vote?


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of Mines):: Two hundred thousand dollars is to be spent on the investigation of mineral resources and deposits; of the mining and metallurgical industries, and of mineral technology. Perhaps an explanation would be in order regarding the operations of the peat bog at Alfred, Ont. Last year difficulty arose through the experiment not being completed before the company took it over. They were not able to finance the undertaking, but are hopeful that they wifi be able to do so and to repay the government. We took it over but were only able to instal the machinery necessary to carry on, get it all in shape and move the plant across the railway track, and put in the switch necessary for convenient loading. The staff anticipate being able to commence operations this year with a full force, and I hope they will operate the plant during the whole season. We will not require as much money this year.


Mr. BENNETT:: What are the company's obligations; if I remember right, there was an agreement.


Charles A. Stewart: The original agreement was for the purchase of the site then existing, and carrying on the work in rented premises. They could not make a satisfactory agreement with the proprietor, and since that time we have purchased property across the railroad tracks. We now own that bog by direct purchase.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What did you pay for
it?


Charles A. Stewart: $5,150 is the purchase price. We hope to manufacture this season in a commercial way and establish this industry on a commercial basis. We also hope that the company will be able to finance it and take it off our hands.


John Anderson Fraser: How much money was spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: $64,128.


John Anderson Fraser: Was there any production?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Mr. CANTLEY:: Mr. Chairman, when I
referred to this matter last year the minister

Supply-Mines
was very emphatic that important results were going to be obtained during the last twelve months. This bog has been a sink of iniquity for a great number of years. There has been more lying done about it, not by the minister but by others connected with it, than perhaps any other single enterprise this government has undertaken. The minister need not think that he will ever make a commercial success out of operating this peat bog; it is not possible to do it. Peat cannot be dried commercially so as to get a new dollar back for an old one. Wherever peat is used the world over it is only by the local people, who spade it out, stack it up and air-dry it. Peat contains a very considerable amount of moisture that cannot be evarporated or driven out by heat or in any other way, because it is microscopically combined with the peat itself. That is a fact that I have no doubt the minister knows as does everybody else who has had experience in handling peat in a scientific way. Why continue this farce of endeavouring to operate something that cannot be done commercially? I am at a loss to understand why the minister persists in doing that. The late Doctor Haanel wrestled with this matter for nearly twenty years and got nowhere. The minister will get nowhere and no department on earth can make a success commercially of this matter. Why then persist in the endeavour?


Charles A. Stewart: One can
never tell of course until the experiment is completed.


Thomas Cantley: There are some scientific facts that speak for themselves and cannot be disputed.


Charles A. Stewart: After investigating almost every process, we have come to the conclusion, just as my hon. friend has stated, that there is only one process that shows any possibilities of success and that is air-drying by spreading a comparatively thin coat over the surface of the ground. One primary difficulty that we have to overcome is the moisture in the air in this locality. I confess that is rather a serious proposition; it is serious to the extent that it curtails the output. We have all the machinery in place; we have the electric current there to carry the experiment to a conclusion, and we hope to manufacture peat this year. But of course I am not going to say for a moment that if we have a very wet summer we shall get a large quantity of peat, because the quantity depends on how fast you can dry it. The Danish process is about to be put into effect at Sherbrooke,
Quebec, entirely independent of the government. They have the machinery on the ground; they have spent some money on the project, so that I think that is a fair indication that they mean business. I want to carry the experiment to a conclusion and to demonstrate whether or not peat can be manufactured successfully. I admit at once it cannot be Shipped any great distance because it is too bulky.


Thomas Cantley: The department have
been struggling with this matter for a number of years and the minister will admit they have never got anywhere.


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Thomas Cantley: Well, he may as well admit it, because there is no question that is the fact. The reports from his department covering a period of ten or fifteen years point to that fact, and he admits that the only process of dealing with peat is by air-drying. The amount of labour you have to put on the material is more than the commercial value of the product after it reaches the consumer. That is all there is to the matter. Where peat is being used it is being used by the residents or natives of the country digging it for themselves and air-drying it. In other words, the cost of labour is not included. It is not a commercial matter; it is simply a domestic affair. The people in the immediate locality could probably do the same thing. The peat will not bear transportation or working by any method, mechanical or otherwise, that the minister may employ provided he pays the ruling rate of wages. The minister will be forced to come back when we review the matter next year and admit that the result of his operations is that just as much money has been lost as was the case in former years. Perhaps some other people are now trying the experiment in Quebec, if that be so they will have a similar experience to that of the minister.


John Anderson Fraser: I do not propose to criticize the vote. What I want to know is this. Supposing the operations are successful at Alfred, does the minister know of other places in Canada where the process can be applied successfully?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes,	I
know a peat bog near my old home in the vicinity of Holland Landing, a very fine bog. There are any number of bogs.


John Anderson Fraser: In Alberta?


Charles A. Stewart: No, in Ontario. There are any number of bogs in

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Ontario. Some of them may not be as adaptable to working as the one at Alfred, but there is no question about the quantity of peat if we can develop a process for handling it.


John Anderson Fraser: Has the minister any information in regard to the western provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Mr. RYERSON:: Is the minister aware of
the experiment carried on or the amount of money expended in Welland and Wellington counties in connection with the very process he is speaking of, namely, the air-drying process of producing peat? A very large expenditure was made there and the same company has spent a great deal of money in this section in the very bogs that I think the government are working on to-day. In view of the failure of private capital in this respect, the government is very foolish to continue the work.


John Wesley Edwards: I am afraid I cannot agree with the views of some hon. gentlemen on this side who have spoken in regard to the matter, My reason for taking that stand is that there are in the county of Frontenac bogs which give great promise along this line. Some people there are interested and they have a right to look forward with hope to something being done which will make their property of real value in this regard. One or two in Frontenac county have written me in regard to the operation at Alfred and they are anxiously awaiting the result of the government's investigation into the peat proposition in that part of Ontario. I am interested in the experiment, largely because of their interest, and I think everyone will agree that in Ontario if we could handle the peat in a way that would satisfy some of the demands of the public, it would be of great value in a province which has no coal. There may be and likely are similar properties in Quebec. These provinces have at present only the white coal, that is the water-power, to depend upon. They are certainly at a disadvantage in having no coal and I would not be doing my duty in regard to this item if I did not give it support and look forward with hope to something being done w'hich will prove of real value to the development of similar properties in the constituency which I represent.


Edward Joseph Garland: The vote
under consideration is one that has occupied a good deal of time in the house in the years
'Mr. C. A. Stewart.]
that have passed. Frankly I never understood why the experiment was started in the first place. Even if fuel that could be used was developed from these peat bogs, its light weight, bulkiness and cost of transportation to any great distance would make the use of it almost prohibitive. Therefore outside of areas within the vicinity of the bogs themselves there would be little hope that this peat fuel could be put to any general use. Moreover, because of the nature of the fuel, the low heating value of it, it would be of use only in the fall or spring months of the year. In fact I think the minister himself is reasonably convinced of the truth of that statement. I have however no desire to impede the passing of the vote at this stage, if, as the minister says, he now having set up this plant and having certain equipment there, merely desires to complete the investigation. I would like to ask the minister how much more money will be required to complete this infernal investigation which has been going on now for so many years without anything in the way of concrete results whatsoever.


Charles A. Stewart: This is not
any more infernal an operation than the one we started at Bienfait. I should not say I started it, but I had the honour of trying to complete it. Notwithstanding the fact that we have spent $1,000,000 of good hard cash of this Dominion on that experiment, which was said to be a failure, there is construction of a plant going on there, not to utilize exactly the same process as was evolved, but nearly the same process. By a high temperature process we are going to carbonize coal at that mine, and make out of what is a comparatively low grade fuel a rather high grade fuel in a territory where there is no fuel of that character. We cannot say that any experiment of this kind is going to turn out a dead failure. All I have to say is that we have purchased all the machinery, we are going to operate the plant at Alfred, and we expect it to carry itself this year. So far as we are concerned we intend to demonstrate,^ by costs and otherwise, in this year's operation, what peat can be produced for, what it can be sold for, and whether it can meet the competition in an area beyond one hundred miles of coal coming in from outside sources for fuel purposes, at least in the fall and in the spring, when there is a market for a reasonable quantity of this fuel.


Edward Joseph Garland: Are we to
understand that the minister means the vote granted this year will complete the experimental work?

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Charles A. Stewart: This is for
operating the plant.


Edward Joseph Garland: No more
money will be asked for next year?


Charles A. Stewart: Not unless
we have to operate the plant next year, and I hope not, because I am hoping that the company will take it over. I am informed that to-day the plant is turning out one hundred and sixty tons of fuel. That will be sold, and we will recoup ourselves, but we need money to carry on.


Edward Joseph Garland: Was there
any revenue from the plant last year?


Charles A. Stewart: We did not manufacture any last year. We were buying new machinery and buying the peat bog, and it was all outlay on plant and equipment.


Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenae):: Is there a
blue book report on the operations thus far which I could get? I should like to have a publication of that kind.


Charles A. Stewart: There will
be. I would not say that it is in print, but it can be produced and printed for the use of hon. members.


John Anderson Fraser: How much of that $1,000
for transportation charges on ore shipments was spent last year?


Charles A. Stewart: Not one
dollar, I am sorry to say. As my hon. friend knows, that was put in the estimates as a result of the agitation for the construction of a plant in British Columbia, which we did not consider advisable at that time. We had in the estimates at one time an item of $10,000 I think, for the purpose of transporting samples of ore from British Columbia and
all outlying points in Canada to Ottawa for testing purposes, but advantage has not been taken of that appropriation. We did not spend one dollar of it last year.


Mr. PETTIT:: I would remind the minister that there is in the township at Wainfleet, in the county of Welland, an area of peat bog of several thousand acres. It might be well to investigate the possibilities there.


Mr. SIMPSON:: I would ask the minister
if under this vote an amount is appropriated for subscriptions to periodicals and newspapers?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, $45,000.


Thomas Edward Simpson: Has the minister a record of the amount expended by his department for subscriptions to newspapers and periodicals during the year 1927.


Charles A. Stewart: I have not
a detailed statement here.


Thomas Edward Simpson: According to a return that was tabled in the house, I find that the Department of the Interior, including Mines and Indian affairs, took under the heading of newspapers, 213 publications and paid for 296 subscriptions, and under the heading of "other publications" took 673 publications and paid for 912 subscriptions, at a total cost of $7,499.14. Included in these figures were 145 subscriptions to daily newspapers. It appeared to me that there was an evident lack of proper supervision, not only in this department, but in every department of the government, with respect to expenditure along these lines, and in order to bring the matter to the attention of the Minister of the Interior and of ministers of other departments I would lake to give the figures for each department now, rather than bring them up when the estimates of the respective departments are before the committee for consideration:
Newspapers and Periodicals Subscribed for by each Department of Government, Year 1925
		(Return No. 197)	Subscriptions	Subscriptions
			to other	to
Cost	publications	newspapers$ 5,551	94	Dept. Agriculture	1,348	251208	44	Public Archives	11	31100	00	Auditor General	10	8127	09	Civil Service Commission	11	141.248	99	Customs and Excise	153	41393	86	External Affairs	9	41453	04	Prime Minister's Office	84460	49	Finance	30	421.209	76	Governor General	1521.848	50	Dept, of Health	17i	24762	02	Dept, of Immigration	46	91165	38	Dept, of Indian Affairs	14	20325	31	Dept, of Insurance	45	45.460	13	Dept, of Interior	556	2562,493	17	Dept, of Justice	474	911,337	55	Dept, of Labour	150	127
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Newspapers and Periodicals Subscribed for by each Department of Government, Year 1925
-Concluded
			Subscriptions	Subscriptions
			to other	to
Cost	publications	newspapers1.281	74	Marine and Fisheries	58	65469	95	Royal Canadian Mounted Police.. .	22	1.873	63	Dept, of Mines	342	202.039	10	National Defence	250	41103	49	Patent Office	15	5332	05	Post Office Dept	14	5227	00	Privy Council	3468	79	Dept. Printing and Stationery.. ..	66	35551	85	Public Works	74	26838	93	Railways and Canals	88	76587	15	Secretary of State	18	57514	42	Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment.. .	57	29212	73	Soldier Settlement Board	20	361,315	84	Trade and Commerce	123	77$32,762 34	4,175	1,854Total subscriptions. .	.. .. 6,029
That makes a total cost for subscriptions to newspapers, periodicals and trade journals of $32,762.34, not including those for the reading room. It is difficult to determine from the Auditor General's report what is allotted to each department for subscriptions to newspapers and periodicals, but I find in this return that in the Department of Labour there is an increase for 1927 over 1925 of $445.57; and there may be increases in some of the other departments.
I fully appreciate the necessity of subscribing for newspapers and trade and technical journals, but I fail to see any reason for buying so many copies. For instance, in the Department of Agriculture I find the following: Manitoba Free Press, 13 copies; Montreal Gazette, 12 copies; Montreal Star, 6 copies; Toronto Globe, 7 copies; Farmers' Advocate, London, 67 copies; Northwestern Farmer, Winnipeg, 32 copies; Farm and Dairy, Peterborough, 22 copies; Farmers Sun, 19 copies; Grain Growers' Guide, 32 copies; Canadian Official Railway Guide, 18 copies; Family Herald and Weekly Star, 15 copies- and also one copy of Canadian Sports and Daily Racing Form. Presumably the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) is preparing for the races. In the Department of the Interior I find the following subscriptions to newspapers and periodicals: Calgary Herald, 6; Edmonton Bulletin, 7; Edmonton Journal, 4; Lethbridge Herald, 4; Vancouver Daily Province, 5; Manitoba Free Press, 11; and so on; Financial Post, 4; Saturday Night, 5. In all departments of government I find, aside from the reading room, the subscriptions to daily papers number 1,200. As an example: Ottawa Journal, 136; Ottawa Citizen, 116; Manitoba Free Press, 77; Montreal Gazette,

105; Montreal Star, 53; Toronto Globe, 68; Toronto Saturday Night, 32; MacLean's Magazine, 22.
As I stated a moment ago, I fully realize the necessity of subscribing for a certain number of newspapers and trade and technical journals. But when we go home and attempt to explain to some of our constituents that we cannot get a rural mail route established, or that we have not sufficient money to furnish them with anything better than a tri-weekly mail service, and they know that the various departments of government are subscribing for 1,200 copies of daily newspapers, it will be hard to explain to them why the postal service should suffer. I bring this to the attention of the minister and his colleagues in the hope that they will look into the matter.


Thomas Cantley: Referring again to the
Alfred peat bog, I find last year we spent altogether $22,898.27. This included $4,353 for land, leaving $18,545, of which labour costs represent only $1,876 and a few cents. In other words, over nine-tenths of the expenditure is overhead.


An hon. MEMBER:: Rent and salaries.


Thomas Cantley: I will come to that in
a moment. The manager gets $6,000 a year, and his clerk is in receipt of $1,260 odd. But the entire labour bill is only $1,876. How can any enterprise of that character stand such a disproportionate overhead? The Irishman at home spades out his peat and there is no overhead. In no other way can this fuel be used economically. Now let me refer to another matter. I understood the minister to say he was doing some briquetting in the west.

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Charles A. Stewart: Not now.


Thomas Cantley: Where?


Charles A. Stewart: Bienfait,
Sask.


Thomas Cantley: You have abandoned
that?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, four
or five years ago.


Thomas Cantley: I congratulate the minister on his display of good sense as to that matter. I hope he will do the same with regard to the Alfred bog, and the sooner the better.


Arthur Edward Ross: Two of the main
activities of the department, I notice, are in connection with the explosives division. Is the department doing anything beyond the inspection of explosives?


Charles A. Stewart: There is the testing of explosives by Colonel Ogilvy. There is also the inspection of the explosive plants, but this is not done usually by him, unless there is some special reason; ordinarily the work is attended to by the mounted police, who look after the safety of the public in connection with this inspection.


Arthur Edward Ross: How many explosive companies are operating in Canada at the present time, or have they all been bought up by the Americans?


Charles A. Stewart: There are twelve factories operating in the Dominion.


Arthur Edward Ross: On page 3 of the
report the beneficiation of iron ore is dealt with. Has any practical result come from this research work?


Charles A. Stewart: There is a rather lengthy report which I shall be glad to give to my hon. friend. It goes into details showing what is being done. Without reference to the report, we must confess that we have not got very far with the development of new treatments of any sort. Investigations have been carried along old lines.


Arthur Edward Ross: I shall be glad to get the report. In my opinion, as I have pointed out before, there has been a want of co-operation; the government has not paid sufficient attention to these reports. Was the minister really carrying out his free trade principles, or was he discharging his function as minister of the mining department, when he allowed the Robb budget to bring in all these products required for insecticides and so on? Here are two or three reports which
deal with the importance of these things, especially with reference to arsenic. The very products from our own mines which enter into these insecticides and fungicides are brought in from the United States. This report, which gives a survey of Canada, was intended to locate the arsenic areas in Canada, but with the introduction of these products from the United States our research work has practically stopped. The minister might support this change in the tariff by arguing that it was not a matter of price, but I think he will agree with me that as these byproducts of the smelteis are used up, and in view of the fact that one-third of the supply of arsenic comes from these smelters, in proportion as this material is consumed in the United States and we have abandoned research work, the price is bound to rise. There is no question about that. At one time, when arsenic was used less extensively as an insecticide, it was a drug on the market; it was very cheap. But as it came into use the price rose. If we are not busy locating and making use of our own supplies in Canada the price will go up. Therefore the minister should be intensely active in the development of our own ores and the products which will provide us with a supply of these commodities. It is worth while calling attention to that fact. These reports are being published, book after book, and nothing is being done, notwithstanding that a great deal of expense is incurred. Money is being spent without producing the results intended for the development of our own industries.


John Wesley Edwards: An hon. member asked a question with regard to these publications. He put some very valuable information on the record this afternoon, and I am sure the minister himself must possess a huge fund of interesting material which he would like to divulge to the committee in regard to papers, periodicals, and so forth that come to his department. Here is one publication known as the Journal of Heredity. I do not know whether this is one of the publications in the minister's department, but it is printed in Washington. There are seventeen of these. Does this "heredity" refer to a certain type of gentlemen, the aristocracy of Canada, or has it reference to animals? I do not know whether the journal of heredity concerns itself with two-legged or four-legged animals. I should like the minister to take us into his confidence and let us know whether his department is spending money to furnish all the staff with these various publications.
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Charles A. Stewart: Perhaps my hon. friend will wait until we come to the Department of the Interior, but if there are any in the Mines department I shall be glad to give him what information I have.


John Wesley Edwards: I presume you have a number of publications in the Mines branch.


Charles A. Stewart: Quite a
number.


John Wesley Edwards: Is that to provide the various members of the stall each with a copy?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


John Wesley Edwards: The number seems unnecessarily large. Possibly it is not, but that is the way it strikes me. The minister did not give the reason for such a number when my hon. friend behind me gave the information he did.


Charles A. Stewart: The hon. gentleman who previously spoke with reference to the matter had in mind newspapers that were coming in for use in the department. I believe he said that twenty newspapers came into the Mines department. I cannot say that this should be considered an excessive number because every day information must be available to various officers in the department. With respect to periodicals, this department occasionally uses a great many. The exchange of new ideas in almost every line of metallurgy in which the officers of the department are interested is invaluable, and of course it would necessitate aocess to everything that is going on throughout the world in the way of new development and the evolution of new ideas. I am unable to tell my hon. friend why it is necessary to have twenty newspapers in one department. However I will inquire into the necessity for that number.


Thomas Cantley: With regard to the supply of arsenic, which is coming into the country in increasing quantities all the time, I would suggest to the minister that instead of whipping dead horses, as he has been doing in the briquetting of coal, and endeavouring to do the impossible so far as peat is concerned, he might turn his attention to the question of utilizing our ores in Canada in relation to the supply of arsenic. It is estimated that there are in Nova Scotia 100,000 tons of tailings containing a considerable percentage of arsenic. The hon. member for Kingston has referred to the output of the smelters, and has asked what is being done by the department with regard to the 
investigation of that matter, which is certainly of vital importance to the country at this moment. A large market is assured to-day and we are depending entirely on our neighbours for that supply.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no question about the quantities of arsenic available in Canada. It does not need a geological survey to establish the fact. It is perhaps very much in the same position as was the adbestos market a year or two ago. As my hon. friend knows, there was any quantity of asbestos, but the industry was almost dead. Of course the hon. member would suggest protection at once.


Thomas Cantley: Any reasonable man
would.


Charles A. Stewart: I will not get into an argument with my hon. friend about that this afternoon; we will argue it some other time. Our .business as a Manes department is to lend geological aid if necessary where prospectors have made discoveries, and to assist them in testing. But apart from the experiment made by the government in the briquetting of coal and the experiment in connection with peat, we are not trying to undertake commercial development of these ores. That is the point I am trying to make.


Thomas Cantley: We are not asking the
minister to undertake commercial development. We are asking the minister to undertake the research work which he claims his department is doing, and I presume that is all he is claiming in regard to peat. Why does he not transfer his activities to questions which are pressing to-day, which are of some very considerable importance and in connection with which research work is necessary? No other question is perhaps more important than that to which I have referred. Why does the minister waste his time on matters of no importance while neglecting other matters which require attention to-day, this altogether apart from the question of protection, to which he has been good enough to refer. I am glad to know that at times he has glimmerings of intelligence in regard to the operation of his department.


George Gibson Coote: I would like to ask the minister whether this is the proper place to discuss the oil well regulations?


Charles A. Stewart: I think that had better come up under the Department of the Interior, because they are practically controlled by that department.


George Halsey Perley: Before this item passes I would like to suggest to the minister that he should reduce this amount for the

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peat experiment. I do not see why he needs $50,000. I could tell the committee a lot about peat from my own unfortunate experience many years ago, but this is not the time to do so. I do not object to the experiment being carried on in the hope of discovering some way to utilize this natural product, but it does seem that $50,000 is too much to pay for a pure experiment. I wonder if the minister cannot reduce this vote.


Charles A. Stewart: We have
aimed at the production of 15,000 tons of fuel this year at this plant. It is not the idea to create the impression that large commercial plants could be successfully operated because, as my hon. friend from Pictou has said, of necessity this fuel can only supply the market contiguous to the point of production. Peat cannot be shipped great distances because it is bulky and light and carries a fairly high freight rate, but this year we expect to produce 15,000 tons. We hope to produce that at $3.50 per ton, and that is about what we estimate will be the outlay during the season. We expect to recoup ourselves by the sale of peat, so we are simply asking for a sum with which to carry on this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological survey, $331,000.
John Anderson Fraser: How many parties have you in the field this year?


Charles A. Stewart: We have
fifty-two parties.


John Anderson Fraser: Are there any more in
British Columbia than were there last year?


Charles A. Stewart: No, there
has been a permanent arrangement with British Columbia almost since union for geological survey work. I think we have eleven parties there.


Thomas Cantley: May I ask what parties
you have in Nova Scotia this year, and what districts they are in?


Charles A. Stewart: Mr. E. R.
Faribault is in the gold-bearing districts in Yarmouth county. He will also continue systematic geological mapping on the Annapolis quadrangle. Mr. J. A. MacDonald will make control surveys in the southwestern part of the province. Aerial photographs have been taken of this part and geological map-sheets contributory to the systematic geological and geographical survey of the province will be made from these photographs and the control surveys. Mr. I W. Jones will complete a geological survey of Springhill quadrangle. Mr. W. A. Bell will make a supplementary examination of the coal area at New Glasgow, and Mr. Bell and Mr. G. W. H. Norman will continue a systematic geological survey of Ainslie quadrangle.


John Anderson Fraser: I would like to ask the
minister when the reports of the work done last year will be made available?


Charles A. Stewart: We will
start to issue them shortly and possibly before fall all the reports having to do with the operations last year will be in your hands.


John Anderson Fraser: This work was done during the season of 1927, and would be completed by September of that year.


Charles A. Stewart: No, it would be later than that.


John Anderson Fraser: Most of the field parties in British Columbia are finished by the end of September. Could not the preliminary reports of these surveys be issued? Could not the issuance of these reports be speeded up, so that they would be available to the public at an earlier date? We will not receive those reports until July or August. Surely that could be speeded up so that the information would be made available earlier in the year.


Charles A. Stewart: One of our difficulties, as my hon. friend knows, is that maps must accompany these reports, and there is a good deal of work necessary to prepare the details. Possibly we could get out a summary which would be available to the public who wish to have the benefit of that information at the beginning of the spring work, but one of the difficulties here at Ottawa is that the printing bureau is working overtime on parliamentary work from the moment the session opens until it closes, and it is very difficult to get printing done.


John Anderson Fraser: Could we not cut down on
the sessional work?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know, but I do know that they are working nights.


John Anderson Fraser: Could we not cut out some of the sessional work?


Thomas Cantley: I would like to refer to one other matter. Last year as the minister knows, or at all events his chief officers know, a company did a lot of deep drilling in the maritime provinces.


Charles A. Stewart: A private
company?


Thomas Cantley: Yes, in a search for oil.
At Governor's island near Charlottetown, P.E.I., they put down one hole to a very considerable depth; as a matter of fact I think
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they put down two bore holes, but one was lost. The records of that work must be of very considerable value, and I would like to know if the department have kept in touch with the work and if they have been able to get the log of these drillings, which must contain a very considerable amount of information in regard to the strata and the possibility of oil being in that locality.


Charles A. Stewart: I am told
that we have that log on file in the department, and it can be procured.


Thomas Cantley: Similar work is now being done in Cape Breton near lake Ainslie and I presume the department is keeping in touch with the men on the ground in regard to that well?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines-amount required for expenses in connection with movement of coal from Alberta to Ontario and from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to Quebec and Ontario, under the provisions of orders in council P.C. 439 and P.C. 539, $150,000.
Abraham Albert Heaps: Could1 the minister give the
committee any idea of the amount of coal that will be shipped this summer?


Charles A. Stewart: It would
be very difficult to make even an estimate of the amount that will be moved. We know that contracts are being made for Nova Scotia coal outside of the old areas in which coal from the maritime provinces was formerly sold in Ontario; in Cochrane, for example. Bituminous coal will be sold in the territory that distance from Montreal. Alberta coal is being sold in a good many different parts of Ontario.


Abraham Albert Heaps: The minister has no idea
of the amount of coal being moved under this subsidy?


Charles A. Stewart: I could not
say.


Abraham Albert Heaps: When this subsidy was arranged with the Alberta government did the minister take into consideration the cost of the coal at the mine mouth? From the information I have I understand that coal of a similar character can be mined in the United States under similar conditions at about one-half the cost. I would like to know if the government has done anything to ascertain the cost of coal at the mine mouth in the province of Alberta. I understand that
[Mr. Cantley-1
the Alberta government has not been able to Obtain that cost, and I was wondering if the Dominion government have anything to show that the price charged is a fair price.


Charles A. Stewart: It is a very difficult proposition you have presented, because so much depends on the volume and the length of time the mine is operating, to arrive at the cost of raising the coal. There is a considerable difference between the cost charged for coal in Alberta and that in the United States, but whether or not they can raise coal as cheaply, whether or not their volume is as large, and whether all the factors that go to make up the cost of coal are the same, I am unable to say.
We have not made inquiry as to the f.o.b. prices being charged, as that is a matter which the Ontario consumers or the Ontario government and the Alberta government ought to adjust between themselves. The movement is fixed at a rate o.f $6.75 per ton, and we are only interested in the freight movement of the coal; to ensure a rate which will be reasonable and just for that movement. The matter of selling coal is entirely in the hands of the two governments concerned, not in ours.


Abraham Albert Heaps: I think the federal government should be vitally concerned in the cost * of coal at the mine mouth, because, after all, if you are going to subsidize coal going to other provinces the first consideration is whether a fair price is being charged at the mine mouth. According to an inquiry which was held recently in the United States, it was shown coal was being sold at the rate of S2.25 at the mine mouth. It is evident that the operators in the United States are willing to give that cost, and I want to know why the operators in Alberta or other parts of Canada are not willing to give the same information. They have always refused to give it in Alberta, and I think the minister ought to know that there is a fixed price there. In other words, there is a ring of coal operators and they charge whatever the traffic will bear. A price of $4.50 or $4.95 at the mine mouth, in my estimation, is altogether too high. Before one cent in the way of subsidy for the moving of this coal is spent, I think it is our duty to find out whether a proper price is being charged at the mine mouth. The Alberta government and the operators have been asking this government to give certain concessions in order to obtain the Ontario market. I would like to see the Ontario market supplied with coal from the province of Alberta or from the maritime provinces,

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but the operators, particularly in Alberta, have given no concessions whatsoever in order to obtain that particular market.
About ten years ago we had a similar situation in western Canada where the operators in Alberta said that if they could only obtain the Manitoba market their problems would be solved. They have now a very large share of the Manitoba market but their problems have not been solved in any way; they are just about where they were ten years ago, more mines have been opened and the mining industry is in about the same position as it was in 1918 or 1919.
The same condition applies in the United States regarding the length of time in the year the mines are operated. The mines of the United States are idle for a good period of the year, and some of them operate no longer or not even as long as do the mines in Alberta. Mr. Chairman, I do think that before' the government continues with this subsidy it should take steps to find out what it costs to produce one ton of coal in Alberta, taking all things into consideration, and then we will know whether they are worthy of consideration. At the present time prices run from $4.50 to $4.95 per ton, and when the operators of Alberta are asking the government for assistance I think they should1 find out if they are worthy of it.


Mr. EVANS:: How much money has been
paid in the way of subsidy, on Nova Scotia coal coming to Ontario, how much coal has been hauled under that subsidy, and where has it been shipped to in Ontario?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend is in error when he states it is a subsidy; it is merely an amount that the board will fix over and above $6.75 per ton for this test movement. It is not a definite subsidy, our interest being only in the freight haul. I do not want to get the government into the position of being made responsible for coal prices either in Ontario or Alberta. That is a problem for the people who administer the Mines Act in the province of Alberta, and it is a problem for either the consumers or the government of the province of Ontario. We are only interested in the freight rate and we have agreed to assist in a test movement to demonstrate what is a fair and reasonable rate to be charged for the movement of this commodity both from the east and west. No money will be paid until the end of the season when the Board of Railway Commissioners will estimate what is reasonable and just to be paid to the railway companies for this movement, and I am asking for the $150,000 to provide against that contingency.


John Evans: Is there not a subsidy being paid on Nova Scotia coal moving west?


Charles A. Stewart: No. There was a subsidy of one-fifth of a cent per mile up to 50 cents per ton some years ago. There was approximately $19,000 paid on that occasion for that movement. But this is the same movement as the one we inaugurated from Alberta and it is based on the same principle.


Thomas Cantley: I want to direct the attention of the minister to the question of the movement of coal from the west and from Nova Scotia. As he knows, the rate from Alberta is fixed at $6.75 and from Nova Scotia points to Montreal it is is fixed at $3 and from New Brunswick at $2.10. The distance from Alberta points is practically 1,989, or say 2,000 miles. That figures out at about 3.39 mills per ton mile on which I presume the rate was based. Taking the same rate per ton mile we find that the Minto rate ought to be considerably lower than $2.10, which is the rate issued. The Canadian Pacific mileage from Minto to Montreal is 501 miles. At 3.39 mills that gives a rate of $1.70 instead of $2.10. If you take the mileage by the Canadian National road it is 547.6 miles, which would give a rate of a little qnder $1.85 instead of $2.10. Therefore by the shortest route which should govern we would be entitled to a rate of $1.70 or even by the longest route to a rate of $1.85. Why put in a rate of $2.10?


Charles A. Stewart: I am greatly interested in this movement, but I do not think we got down to the exact figures that my hon. friend has presented. In every case in a freight movement of this kind the long haul gets the more reasonable rate. That is generally admitted. Probably my hon. friend will argue that there should not be that much difference. I am accepting his figures; I do not know the correctness of them, but I am sure he has gone into the matter fairly and that his figures are correct. We are endeavouring to treat both east and west alike in connection with this test movement. I have much more hope of assistance to the eastern industry by widening the market by the rail and water haul via Montreal than by the all-rail haul under almost any conditions.


Thomas Cantley: I am not interested at
the moment in the rail and water haul. That has some advantage, I will admit. It will apply to Cape Breton; it does not apply to the mainland. The minister's statement about the long haul is all right in reference to a haul between divisional points, but it is not
Supply-M ines

a factor where the distance is 500 miles as compared with 2,000 miles where you are passing over one or several divisions to another, because your divisional charges are the same in either case.
I come to the question of the Spring Hill district where the distance is 684.4 miles, about one-third of the Alberta distance, 1 will admit, but passing over a divisional point, so that the minister's argument does not apply. The rate here should be $2.32 per ton, not $3 as we are charged for the whole province of Nova Scotia-a flat rate of $3 irrespective of distance. If you take the Stellarton district, the distance is 768 miles, and at 3.39 mills the rate would figure out at about $2.60, whereas we are charged $3. The rate from Spring Hill should of course be a little less becauses the distance is less. The rate from Sydney on the same basis would be $3.24. There I admit you are giving Sydney an advantage, but the fact is that no coal will be moved from Sydney under this scheme; it is not expected that it should be moved from there. But a large quantity of coal should be moved from Spring Hill and from the Pictou district to overcome seasonal unemployment and from those points we are asked to pay too much. A level rate for the whole province of Nova Scotia based on practically the greatest mileage that can be found in the province, namely from Sydney, and disregarding the Pictou and Cumberland fields is not fair treatment as compared with that which the other province has received in this regard. New Brunswick is entitled to a rate of $1.70 from Minto, Spring Hill a rate of $2.32 and the Pictou district a rate of $2.60. I do not think any coal will be moved from the island of Cape Breton, but it is entitled to a rate of $3. Why does the minister not give us in the several maritime coal districts the same treatment as he is giving to the west? That is the question I ask and I should like to get an answer.


Charles A. Stewart: The maritimes start off with an advantage of twenty per cent covering all rates. That applies in the first instance.


Thomas Cantley: The 20 per cent does not apply to this special rate.


Charles A. Stewart: That is
true, but my hon. friend is taking the total rate on the long haul against his short haul and figuring that he is working at a disadvantage. Minto coal, however, comes into
[Mr. Cantley.l
this city under the old rate. We are desirous of extending the use of it so far as we can. Minto coal has been burned in this plant.


Thomas Cantley: I know that. Pictou coal comes up in the summer but not in the winter.


Charles A. Stewart: It comes
up by rail.


Thomas Cantley: No, it comes by water
to Montreal.


Charles A. Stewart: I did not
understand that it came by water. My understanding was that it came by rail. We are trying to give my hon. friend a rate that will put his coal into this market and that will be as nearly commensurate with the rate to the western provinces as we can make it. My. hon. friend will, I admit, find some discrepancies, but he will agree with me that when we made the attempt before, the maritime provinces were the only portion of Canada to profit by the movement. Moreover, this is a test movement. Accurate figures, I trust, will be taken of the movement. We made one zone of the province of Alberta. We do not say, for example, that the rate from Drumheller will be less than the rate from the mountains where there is perhaps a longer haul of about 200 miles. We took the maritimes as a zone and divided them into two with the exception that we gave Minto in New Brunswick, which is the shortest haul, the lowest rate.


Thomas Cantley: That is not a fair statement of the facts. As regards the zoning in Alberta, the whole territory is embraced within a zone of 200 miles.


Charles A. Stewart: Quite right.


Thomas Cantley: Nine-tenths of the coal
comes from one point, namely, Drumheller. The minister has not dealt with the maritime provinces in the same way at all. We are entitled from Minto, New Brunswick, to a rate of $1.70 on the mileage. The minister talks about a long haul and a short haul. A haul of 750 miles is by no means a short haul and it is entitled to just as equitable a rate and it costs no more per ton mile than a haul of 2,000 miles. The fact remains that we have not received fair treatment in this matter. We have been charged $3 where we ought to be charged $1.70, $2.32 and $2.60 from Minto, Spring Hill and Pictou respectively. The minister might just as well admit the situation and rectify it.

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Charles A. Stewart: The minister is not going to admit it at all.


Thomas Cantley: I do not know that he
admits anything, but at all events he cannot change the facts, and the facts are as I have stated.


Clarence Joseph Veniot: Does the hon. gentleman say that Minto coal goes to Montreal by water?


Thomas Cantley: No, I was talking of
Pictou coal, which is better than Minto coal.


Edward Joseph Garland: It was with some little surprise that I heard the remarks of the hon. member for North Winnipeg. When he suggests that it might be wise for the sake of the industry and as a matter of research to get at the production costs of the coal, I agree with him, but when he comes along with the categorical statement that the minister and parliament should not spend one cent of this vote until after the costs of the operators have been produced, there I disagree with him, and in disagreeing with him I am in good company, because I am in his own company or that of his associates. I have in my hand a copy of an editorial from the Canadian Trade Unionist, which I would call to the hon. member's attention.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Does the hon. member know what he is quoting from when he is quoting from that paper?


Mr. GARLAND (Bow RiveT):: I am quoting from my hon. friend's friends. It says:
The successful culmination of the negotiations that have been carried on will be a source of much gratification to all who have aided their progress. The Canadian Trade Unionist feels proud that it has taken part in the campaign. It is now four years since we published the first of our series of articles urging on Canadian workmen the value to themselves of spending the money made in Canada for the Canadian coal of a sister province.
Again:
There is still the securing of a market for the product,. . . and the influence of labour is to be seen in this resolution from the representatives of a typically working-class constituency. Like results can be obtained elsewhere.
I quote from another editorial, this time from the Labour Leader, which the hon. member for Winnipeg North may have heard of. It says:
If we take it for granted that the test is to spread over the three years movement and is an attempt to create a permanent _ Ontario market, the results as far as labour in particular is concerned are very far-reaching. They affect labour as a whole throughout the entire Dominion, not merely the trades and callings directly associated with the mining or movement of the fuel, but others as well.
In the immediate past, the condition of miners in western Canadian coal fields has been an unhappy one. Skilled workmen, they have only been able to work a little more than six months of the year.
And sometimes less than that:
Limited markets have restricted the output of the mines and made all-year-round operation an impossibility. The miners, therefore, for their off-seasons have been forced, here and there, in search of some sort of seasonal occupation.
Not only would a substantial Ontario market for the coal relieve distressing conditions among the mine workers, but it is clear that it would also stabilize labour conditions throughout the west, which are now unsettled, due to the number of men who must spend a great portion of each year looking for any sort of fill-in occupation that they can find.
As well as the direct effect on living conditions among the miners themselves and its effect on other types of business dependent on the miner's patronage, the result as far as the railways are concerned is no minor one.
It is only at that particular point that I widh to take issue with the hon. member for North Winnipeg. The miners themselves are absolutely in accord with this test movement. They feel that it has offered them some hope of greater continuity of work throughout the year, more days employment, and they leave to their own organizations the adjustment of the wage scale. But when the hon. member for North Winnipeg rises and suggests that we should not give a cent of this money until after the costs of the operators have been produced, I must disagree with him. He went further and stated categorically that the operators in Alberta had a ring and were fixing prices. I do not know where he gets his facts. I have no brief for the operators. My friendship is entirely for the miners. I have stated that often and will state it again, in front of the operators or anybody else; I am stating it now. To my knowledge there is not only no deliberate ring so far as the Drum-heller field is concerned, but there is keen competition in the securing of markets. In this city of Ottawa one of the Drumheller mines is now offering coal at a cut rate, at 25 cents a ton below the price charged by other mines. That should dispel the hon. gentleman's belief that there is any deliberate ring. That is all I wish to say on this matter at the moment, and I trust the hon. member for North Winnipeg will not be provoked any further.


Abraham Albert Heaps: Who fixes the price of Alberta coal?


Alan Webster Neill: The minister has told us that we must not call this a bounty. I call it
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a hand-out. It is going to cost us $150,000, and surely it is worthy of a name. It must not be called a bounty or a subsidy. What would the minister call it?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian Affairs-salaries, $171,992.50; contingencies, $20,000.
Richard Bedford Bennett: It would seem this might be an appropriate place to make a few observations with respect to the condition of the Eskimos. The minister has had his attention directed to this matter on more than one occasion, and considerable sums of money have been expended for the purpose of improving their condition. I understand that every winter there is considerable hardship endured by the Eskimos, and the only remedy that has been suggested1 that would be at all equal to the demands made upon the department would foe to import a number of reindeer from Norway, and to establish herds up there, as has been done so successfully by Mr. Lopp in Alaska. I know the minister gave the matter some consideration, and there is a considerable number of people who will be very anxious to know from a statement by the minister in this house just what is being done, and what may be done, in the way of affording this measure of relief to this native population of our country to whom we owe so large an obligation.


Charles A. Stewart: The importation of reindeer was attempted by the department on the ea3t coast and was a failure, we understand, because of the fact that they were not well located on proper grazing grounds. The reindeer nearly all died. Since that time our attention has been directed to the fact that in Alaska the American government have made a very great success of the rearing and domesticating of reindeer They are rearing the reindeer in their wild state, and have a very considerable market both for the fur and the meat, and as a commercial undertaking it is proving to be quite a success. There have been in the employ of the department for two years two gentlemen who have made a study of the food and other conditions of the reindeer, and it is hoped to make a success in this direction yet. They have been in the north now for a period of two years, and we shall soon have their report. In addition to that, the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Ladner), on behalf of others, approached! the department about a year ago to lease a very large territory in the vicinity of Hudson bay.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In the Mackenzie basin?
[Mr. Neill.)


Charles A. Stewart: West of Hudson bay. The land was required for individuals who had made a success of rearing reindeer in Alaska. They wished to import a very considerable herd and make a thorough test of the possibilities of raising reindeer in that territory. I think arrangements have been practically completed, and we will soon have, as a private enterprise, a herd of reindeer established there, and year by year a certain number of animals will be turned over to the government, which we will then give to Eskimos, who will be trained to establish small herds. This work we trust will' be beneficial to the Eskimos from the standpoint both of meat supply and of fur.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I have no desire to detain the committee, but possibly the minister has seen a letter which was published in the Toronto Globe with respect to this matter, pointing out the conditions under which the Eskimos are living and the necessity for action being taken to provide for their wants.


Charles A. Stewart: Is that the Rev. Mr. Walton's letter?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am referring to the letters written by him and also by Mr. R. H. Knowles of Toronto. There is also an editorial in the Globe with respect to the matter, which I placed among my files for reference when dealing with the estimates. The movement of reindeer to the Mackenzie basin will not entirely meet the demand for further consideration by the aboriginal population in another section of the northwest. There are about six thousand souls in all, and the story told of their privations and sufferings demands that action be taken to prevent a recurrence of those conditions, for the minister himself on a previous occasion pointed out that we owe to the aborigines a sacred duty that is not lightly to be disregarded. Under the circumstances, if the experiment to establish reindeer in that part of the Northwest Territories immediately concerned has been unsatisfactory, I think a larger sum should be placed at the disposal of the minister to make possible the absolute prevention of a recurrence of the hardships and suffering which those people have undergone.


Charles A. Stewart: I am asking for a considerable sum in another place


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know.


Charles A. Stewart: -but largely for the purpose of securing supplies from the traders. The Hudson's Bay Company, for example, have posts along Coronation gulf

Supply-Indian Affairs
and around Churchill where the Eskimos congregate, and they are most likely to know whether the natives are in distress. This occurs in the winter season, when sometimes whole tribes are wiped out. I neglected to say that the investigation we are making by those two gentlemen from the United States is along Coronation gulf.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The Porsild Brothers?


Charles A. Stewart: I am not sme if that is the name. They have made a study of the subject, so we will have some assurance that there will be the necessary feed available if the deer are moved in. We are having difficulty with our Indians all through the northern territory.	On that
account we are asking for larger sums for medical attention and supplies. The high prices at which fur is selling to-day is a great incentive to the white trapper to interfere very seriously with the livelihood of the Indians-so serious that we are going to kill some of the older buffalo in the northern herd and reserve the meat for that territory.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In the Globe editorial it is stated that a ninety-eight pound bag of ' flour was sold to the Eskimos at from fourteen to sixteen dollars, and a tin of beef at seventy-five cents. There are only six thousand of them in all. If that is so, I think the minister should state to the house very frankly that he regards the Dominion's obligation to feed and clothe them to be of such importance that he will see to it that the Eskimos are properly looked after. I think that is all that can be fairly asked of the department.


Charles A. Stewart: I am glad my hon. friend has brought this matter up, for it is one on which the house needs information. The reports we receive are usually from a year to eighteen months after the occurrence-


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is the trouble.


Charles A. Stewart: -and we do not discover there has been distress and suffering until it is too late to apply a remedy.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Usually they are dead.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. So far we have had to trust pretty largely to the northern traders. We are trying to get into that territory police posts just as quickly as my hon. friend will give us the men. We have established a number of posts there during the last two or three years, and we are endeavouring to teach the natives to apply to the mounted police as our direct representatives. Let me say that I do not think those natives have always been used by the traders as they should have been, and the mounted police are exercising a very salutary influence on the traders operating in that northern territory. With the extension of the mounted police service I think we shall be able to take measures more adequately to protect the natives than we have been able to in the past.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: From what I can hear in this corner you are discussing Indian affairs?


Charles A. Stewart: No, civil government.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Ontario and Quebec, $317,107.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Will the minister explain the general increases in these votes?


Charles A. Stewart: In this vote there is an increase of $8,000 for relief and medical attendance. Without going into details, I may say that we have to increase our votes all along the line for assistance of this kind to our Indian wards.


Richard Bedford Bennett: There is no doubt
about it.


Charles A. Stewart: I am afraid that in the future we shall have to increase these votes very materially, because we are not in any way meeting the requirements for stamping out tuberculosis, which is very prevalent amongst the Indians. Indeed, it is increasing to some extent. Of course, that means better housing, better care-


Richard Bedford Bennett: And medical attention.


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. In
every case we are asking for some increase in the votes for hospitals and so forth.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What is the Indian population of Canada at present?


Charles A. Stewart: 105,000.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wholly agree with
what the minister has said. There is evidence on many reserves that notwithstanding the efforts made the population is decreasing, and if there is any duty we owe in the world it is the duty we owe the Indians and Eskimos, the aborigines who are the wards of the nation. I should like the minister to make it perfectly clear that early this year he will take steps to prevent destitution and starvation among the Indians and Eskimo population in the far northern part of the country. If we do not move now these people will die of starvation this winter.
Supply-Indian Affairs


Charles A. Stewart: In the Coronation gulf area "we now have a mounted police force which was recently established on Baffin island. In the north, where the Indians congregate, we are also policed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: But further east?


Charles A. Stewart: The northern end of Quebec is the one weak spot in the organization.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And that is where the
Eskimos are suffering.


Charles A. Stewart: There is a
considerable number of Eskimos there and we have some apprehension, but we are taking the precaution to ensure that the traders will at least endeavour to see that no destitution occurs. But we moist have a police force there.


Richard Bedford Bennett: And start now.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the acreage in Indian reserves in each of the provinces?


Charles A. Stewart: I can give
the number of reserves but I doubt whether I can give the exact acreage.


John Wesley Edwards: Have certain lands, formerly Indian reservations, been acquired or taken over by the government, and if so, what lands were given in substitution therefor?


Charles A. Stewart: I can best
answer that question by citing what is going on at present in the Peace river country where there are three small reserves in the thickly settled district there. There are not very many Indians on them, it is true, but what we propose doing there, subject always of course to approval by the Indian band themselves, is to sell these and substitute other lands which are not so valuable and which are of a greater distance westward. Generally speaking, where there is a sale of a reserve or of any portion of a reserve, the sale takes place after a vote has been taken by the Indian band on the reserve. Their consent is obtained and the land is then sold at public auction. That method was departed from in some cases when soldier settlement was quite active. The Saddle lake reserve in Alberta is one I know of particularly. In that case there was set aside at a fixed value a certain portion of the reserve, with the consent of the Indians, of course, and $10 an acre was decided upon as the price. There was no public auction in that instance. But in the case of the Blackfoot reserve where the land was not required-it is in the vicinity of my hon. friend's constituency-the Indians voted and

the land was sold at public auction to the highest bidder. The practice in all cases is, first, to obtain the consent of the band, and secondly, to sell at public auction to the highest bidder, the funds to be preserved of course in the interests of the band itself.


John Wesley Edwards: Why was
that procedure departed from in the case of the Saddle lake reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: It had been presumed that the land was required for soldier settlement purposes, but it finally turned out that it was not; and as the government were in duty bound to pay over the $10 an acre to the Indians or to the band funds other disposition had to be made of the land.


John Wesley Edwards: What was that disposition?


Charles A. Stewart: Part of it
was sold to British families. I know there was one portion that went to local people by allotment at $10 an acre-a small portion on the eastern side of the reserve.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was not sold by auction?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Does not the law require it to be sold by auction?


Charles A. Stewart: It was 6old to the Soldier Settlement Board. It had gone out of the control of the Department of Indian Affairs, and it was sold* to th>
board who made this adjustment.


John Wesley Edwards: Was not a
large block of that Saddle lake reserve disposed of to one corporation or organization, and by them resold, they being in full control?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend is referring to -the British families settled under the Hebridean association. They were settled by the Soldier Settlement Board on these lands which were assumed to be required for soldier settlers but were not, and which were subsequently settled by these Hebrideans.


John Wesley Edwards: I did not
suppose that the Hebrideans, who were brought out under the Scottish Immigration Aid Association, had settled there at all.


Charles A. Stewart: The minister (Mr. Forke) now tells me that thjey were not; they were British settlers who were put on the land under the British Empire settlement scheme.

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John Wesley Edwards: Then no
large portion of the reserve was disposed of en bloc to any organization or association?


Mr. STEM  ART@Edmonton: No; only in so far as the Soldier Settlement Board acquired it at $10 an acre.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Was 110 an acre the average price of raw land around the Saddle lake reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot
say; I should think so.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Perhaps the Minister of
Immigration can tell us.


Charles A. Stewart: It happened prior to our time; the allotment was made under the previous government. But $10 an acre was a fair price for raw land in that vicinity at that time.


Mr. KENNEDY:: What reserves in the
Peace river country have been voted on by Indians?


Charles A. Stewart: None as yet.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Was a vote taken last summer?


Charles A. Stewart: No; an attempt was made but we did not get the Indians together.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is it .the intention to
take a vote again?


Charles A. Stewart: This summer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northwest Territories, $918,257.
Mr. FANSHER (Last Mountain):: Will the minister explain the ramifications of this vote? It is a large vote and there is an increase.


Charles A. Stewart: The largest proportion of the vote, $40,000, is for destitute Indians, to meet treaty obligations. The three prairie provinces cover a very considerable area and we require this additional amount. I emphasize -the necessity for doing something, along with the provincial government, to provide hunting grounds for the Indians apart from the reserves on which they live. If we cannot succeed in doing that, and the Indians come into competition with the white man and are obliged to earn their livelihood, they will starve to death. That is as the situation appears to us. Consequently we are constantly asked for more money to relieve destitution and for illness resulting from destitution, and we have pared these sums to
the lowest possible amount. These Indians are our wards; we must do the best we can for them, and without going into a detailed explanation I would say to my hon. friend . that every dollar of this amount will be needed for the purpose for which it is voted.


James Shaver Woodsworth: In regard to the
policy of the department I should like to ask the minister whether it is contemplated that the Indians will have to earn their living by hunting, and if so, whether it is a good thing to bring young Indians to boarding schools, keep them there for six or eight years, then turn them out again without having given them the opportunity to acquire hunting habits.


Charles A. Stewart: I have given this question very considerable attention and I have watched the development of some of these young people, so I might say that I have very great hopes of making a change in connection with the young Indians whom we can put at once into the occupation of farming. For example, take the Blood reserve in Alberta; we have an allocation of land for the young student as soon as he is ready to leave school, and we endeavour to build a small house for him and to become responsible for the purchase of stock and implements, although in a very limited way. We have every prospect of success there, and the reason I lay so mudh emphasis on this is because I am led to believe it will be successful through what I have seen on the Six Nations reserve in Ontario. Of course there are good and bad Indians just as there are good and bad white men, but on that reserve they are making a fair success of agriculture. However, in answer to my hon. friend's direct question about the hunting Indian, the northern Indian, wfho is brought to school and then turned loose at the age of fifteen or sixteen years, neither a hunter nor a half-trained white man; that is the problem which is giving us the most concern at the present time. The Indians who live in agricultural areas usually work for the surrounding farmers, and they make good workmen. I am not decrying the advantages of education to the young Indian, but we should have something to put him at as soon as he leaves school in order that he may earn his livelihood, and we have not overcome that difficulty as yet, although we are giving it very careful consideration.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Just one other
question in connection with these industrial schools. Would it not be well to encourage

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the young Indians to become Canadian citizens, or to make it possible for them to become Canadian citizens, in order that they might assume the full responsibilities of citizenship?


Charles A. Stewart: Of course
that is the whole idea behind the education given them, and it is the solution of the whole difficulty. However, When that happy condition will be attained is a different matter. I do think that the quicker we teach them the virtuous ways of the white man and his methods of earning a livelihood the better it will be for our Indian wards and the sooner they will be able to assume the white man's responsibility. That is what we have in view.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I think perhaps the
minister might have presented the other side of the picture as well. There is no doubt that in some parts of western Canada the Indians have produced- very substantial quantities of grain. In Saskatchewan, say south of the Saskatchewan river; in Alberta, say south of Strathcona, and in Manitoba, they have produced very substantial quantities of grain. Perhaps the minister has the information with him, and I am sure the committee would be interested to know the number of bushels of grain produced by the Indians in those provinces last year. I visited two of the reserves last year and was greatly taken with the improved conditions under which they are carrying on agriculture. I am not an authority upon agriculture at all, but the amount of grain they produced was really very wonderful. At one place, as the minister will recall, they had an elevator which was subsequently sold; they had many thousands of bushels of grain which they sold during the year; they had good horses, some excellent cattle and good equipment. In some instances very active government supporters were anxious to sell them increased quantities of equipment to an extent far in excess of their requirements; no doubt the minister will recollect that in one case so much of this machinery was sold that if they had produced enough grain to utilize the number of harvesting machines in their possession they might have ranked with the great grain producers of the world. However, that condition was overcome in due season, like most things of the world; we will get them in due season if we faint not. I think the committee might be interested in hearing just what these Indians 
produced last year; I think the result is highly creditable to those who have had the responsibility of conducting the business of the Indian department in its various ramifications.


Charles A. Stewart: I want to
make it clear that only a small proportion of our Indian population earn their livelihood through agriculture; if all Indians did so our difficulties would be ended. I am not pleading for the Indian capable of earning his livelihood in agriculture but I am pleading very strongly for the Indian, wherever he may be, in whatever province of Canada, who is not engaged in agriculture and who is having rather a difficult time. However, as my hon. friend has pointed out, I think it would be of interest to the committee to know just how the Indians have come out in the production of grain. Last year in the three prairie provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta they had 37,307 acres of land under crop which produced 603,621 bushels of wheat; of oats they had about 21,000 acres under cultivation, which produced about 398,000 bushels; of barley they had 4,441 acres under cultivation, which produced 75,435 bushels. Then we have a very detailed statement of the amount of vegetables they raised, the hay and so on; I think the figures I have given will suffice, but if the committee desire I will give a copy to Hansard and have the complete statement put in.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: What seems to be the
chief difficulty in getting a vote taken among the Indians in regard to the disposal of some of the reserves, such as those in the settled parts of the Peace River country?


Charles A. Stewart: Well, as my hon. friend knows, it is very difficult to get those Indians on the reserve, and he also knows that unless we get a fairly representative vote we are likely to have trouble with the band because they were not consulted. That happens on almost every occasion, but we are making a determined effort to have that vote taken this year, and I hope the vote will represent the great majority ^of the band interested.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is it necessary that the Indians meet on the reserve?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is it not possible to take the vote when they come to get their treaty money?

Supply-Indian Affairs


Charles A. Stewart: No, we have followed the principle of having the votes taken on the reserve. I had exactly the same difficulty on a small reserve west of Edmonton, where we tried for three years to get a vote taken. Last year we finally succeeded.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: One of the great troubles in connection with these reserves in the Peace River country occurs in grasshopper years. Although the neighbouring farmers do their best to cope with the plague, the reserve close by seem to contain a plentiful supply of grasshoppers for the whole community. That fact has stirred up a tremendous amount of feeling in the community.


George Gibson Coote: I have just one remark to
make in connection with this item. I should like to ask the minister to give us an assurance that the young Indians after they leave these industrial schools will be given the necessary equipment with which to start farming on the reserves. I have had a good many complaints from the Indians to the effect that they have had difficulty in getting the department to give them equipment. I do not suggest that there is ground for all these complaints, but I would like to have the assurance of the minister that he will be as liberal as possible in the furnishing of equipment to these young Indians who are willing to start farms of their own.


Charles A. Stewart: I think I
can give my hon. friend that assurance, but I would not promise that we will satisfy the young Indians, because they want a full set of equipment to start with. We try to be as generous as we can in starting up a young man in that way, and I do not think there is any complaint to be made.


Mr. LUCAS:: Do these Indians receive
agricultural education at the school?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


William Thomas Lucas: How much land is there in
connection with the school at Edmonton?


Charles A. Stewart: I think the farm consists of about eight hundred acres.


William Russell Fansher: Does the young Indian have to pay for the equipment out of the proceeds of the crops, or is it given to him?


Charles A. Stewart: We expect
him to pay for it. He does not always do so, but we lead him to understand that he is under an obligation to repay us.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Is this equipment charged at full price, or at the cost price plus a certain percentage of profit?


Charles A. Stewart: In the case of animals, we have to purchase them at the going price, and the Indian is charged exactly what we pay for them. We can make a very advantageous arrangement regarding implements, because we are buying for about a dozen reservations. We get the advantage of a discount, which is given to the Indians.


William Russell Fansher: Is the
department contemplating doing anything regarding the debts some of these Indians have incurred? I should like the minister to state whether some of this vote is for that purpose, or whether there is any provision made for that.


Charles A. Stewart: We have
investigated all these accounts, and where receipts can be produced from the Indian agent we feel theie is an obligation on the department to pay. Unfortunately there were a lot of transactions where the agent was never consulted, a sale direct to the Indian. We have made no attempt to clean these up, but year by year we have been wiping off all these old accounts where receipts could be produced. We have not been using any of these votes for that purpose, but have endeavoured to do this by using the band funds and other means. I would like to say that we have them all cleared up, but there was a very considerable amount when I started in to fix up this mess.


William Russell Fansher: Do I
understand from the minister that there has never been a vote for this purpose?


Charles A. Stewart: I am informed that we have never had a vote for this purpose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Yukon, $19,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: How many Indians are
there in the Yukon territory?


Charles A. Stewart: 1,528.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-general, $231,500.
William Thomas Lucas: Would the minister tell the
committee the total Indian population of Canada?


Charles A. Stewart: It is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 100,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Indian Affairs
[Stage Direction]
Indian education, including the construction of school buildings, $2,160,310.
John Wesley Edwards: Would the
minister be good enough to give us a general statement in regard to this item of Indian education and how it is carried on?


Charles A. Stewart: With the
exception of the day schools, this work is carried on very largely by the religious organizations-such churches as the Roman Catholic, the Anglican, the United church and the Presbyterian. In the day schools all the teachers are employed by the government. They must be certificated, and they are inspected by the provincial school inspectors of the province in which they are located. Under the old system the churches asumed the whole responsibility regarding the boarding schools, and received a per capita grant for this work from the government. When I came here I changed the system somewhat, as I found most of the church organizations were in rather severe financial difficulties. We took over such buildings as we deemed to be decent and worth while repairing, and commenced a program of construction of new buildings. We have been spending in the neighbourhood of $500,000 or $550,000 annually in the purchase and construction of new buildings, keeping in mind the necessities of the organizations which have this work in hand, and the necessities of the communities in which they are built. In the British Columbia vote there is an additional $100,000, due to a recommendation made by the joint committee which dealt with this matter last year.


John Wesley Edwards: I wanted to get a comparison of the Indians educated in the day schools and in the so-called private schools.


Charles A. Stewart: We are constructing a new boarding school at Shuben-acadie, Nova Scotia. We believe better training can be given the Indian child in the boarding school than in the day school, because it is very difficult to get him to be at all regular in his attendance at the day school. We have him under control all the time in the boarding school, as he remains there during the whole school period. In the day schools, which are located in all the provinces, we have 4,005 boys and 3,850 girls, or a total of 7,864. In our residential schools, which are located in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, the Northwest Territories, 'British Columbia and the Yukon, we have 3,208 boys, 3,433 girls, or a total of 6,641. Therefore there are all told about 14,000 children attending school.


James Charles Brady: In the Indian schools, particularly the boarding schools, does the department supervise or control in any way the program, for instance, of technical and agricultural work? Is there a defined system whereby the young Indian, instead of receiving the ordinary education which is of little value to him, really becomes a productive agent? I ask the question because I know from my experience in visiting the Indian schools that there is a great waste. In other words, they reach a certain stage; they learn to read and write and a few other things, and then they have absolutely nothing to fall back upon. Is there a defined program of technical education of the Indian boys?


Charles A. Stewart: The very difficulty that my hon. friend mentions is one to which we have given some thought in an endeavour to see if we can remedy it; but if he knows anything about the Indian, his habits and environment, he will1 realize the difficulty. We are endeavouring to teach the girls domestic work in addition to the ordinary public school curriculum, and the boys, such outdoor work as will come to hand in any given institution. In Kamloops, for example, the boys are trained in irrigation work because in that territory the boys are going out into fruit growing areas and drier sections. In the north we give them as much education as we can in regard to agriculture, even as labourers, if need be, so that when they go out they may carry on in competition with their white brothers.


Arthur Edward Ross: Have there been any epidemics amongst the Indians apart from the tubercular trouble?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, what the doctors call the "flu" or influenza is a very serious menace to the Indians in the wooded areas, but we have not had any serious outbreak recently. Tuberculosis is the worst enemy we have to contend with amongst the Indian tribes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Department of the Interior-salaries and expenses connected with the administration of the territories, including the erection of buildings, investigation work, schools, relief to destitutes, maintenance of prisoners and insane patients, administration of the Northwest Game Act and the Wood buffalo park, etc., $200,000.
Explorations-salaries	and contingencies,
equipment and supplies, etc., $75,480. _
Administration of Eskimo affairs, including salaries, relief, care, maintenance, education, medical supplies, travelling expenses, etc., $50,000.-Total $325,480.

Supply-Interior-N.W.T.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Would the minister give the committee some information as to the number of buffalo taken from Wainwright park to the north?


Charles A. Stewart: For three years we have been transferring young buffalo under two years of age from Wainwright park to the territory in the north. We started this as an experiment, but we now have a very considerable herd in the north and I doubt if we shall continue it after this year. We are sending up another contingent of buffalo this year. We feel that from this point onward the surplus stock both at Wainwright and at La.mont might very well be slaughtered and the hides sold, the government getting the advantage of the sale of the meat and the fur.


William Thomas Lucas: Has the minister any report on how the buffalo are doing in the north?


Charles A. Stewart: They are doing very well. They have mixed with the native herd there. True, the buffalo that are in captivity are not as large as the northern buffalo, but there is no doubt that they will be a very fine herd if they are protected.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I have had some complaints regarding the refusal by the department to parties seeking licenses to buy fur in the Northwest Territories. What are the conditions in regard to that?


Charles A. Stewart: The act of
last year was to have come into effect this year. Of course I am very anxious that we should receive some revenue out of the Northwest Territories, and we are entitled tc get it, particularly as all the other provinces in Canada have a fur tax; but through a mistake in the revision of the statutes by the committee the wrong year was inserted, which would have meant that I would have to reintroduce the act at this session to have the matter rectified. I thought it well to let it go and it will come into effect next year automatically under the provisions of the act. My reason for doing this was that I received a very largely signed petition from the residents of the Northwest Territories protesting against the imposition of this tax and asking that some investigation be had with respect to the administration of affairs up there as they affect the Indians, and the white people as well, living along the Mackenzie basin. Three weeks ago I sent a representative of the Department of the Interior and a representative of the Department of Indian Affairs up there. We have
given them a list of questionnaires and they are to meet the people, at convenient points which will be well advertised to the residents of the north, to take evidence not only with respect to the fur tax, but with regard to every other matter that may be agitating the minds of the residents of that territory, and to report back to the government this fall. But the act will come into effect automatically in 1929.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: On what grounds were certain parties refused licenses to go into the Northwest Territories to trade?


Charles A. Stewart: No one is refused a license who will settle down at one point. If he will designate the place where he wishes to trade, we issue the license at once, but the difficulty is that we have had so many people in the past who are known as transient traders Our Assyrian friends are very fond of that kind of thing. As my hon. friend knows, the custom in the past among the legitimate traders has been for them to make loans either by way of supplies or of money to the trappers, who then go out and get a supply of fur and bring it back and pay their debts by .the sale of that fur. But the difficulty is that along may come one of these chaps who sometimes pays cash, and who travels daily and picks up the fur that rightly belongs to the individual who has grubstaked the trapper or lent him the money, and then the travelling trader disappears out of the country. We found this was an evil which we had to take some steps to remedy, and our remedy was to give everyone a license who will settle down and trade at any given point. We want to know where they are going to trade, and we issue a lioense1 bo them for that particular locality. They cannot go in and settle down at any designated point without opening what we know as a post. The man we have prohibited from trading is the trapper who travels around and picks up the fur, and usually cheats the man from whom he buys it.


Mr. MILLAR:: Are any of the buffalo herd in captivity?


Charles A. Stewart: None of the herd is in captivity in the sense that we have a fence around them, but we have wardens looking after them. They are in the same position as that formerly occupied by a herd of cattle.


John Millar: Has it been found necessary to take any steps to nrotect them from wolves?
3830	COMMONS
Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands


Charles A. Stewart: Does my
faon. friend mean the young buffalo? No. They mix with the herd, which will defend them against the attacks of the wolves. The wolves always pull down the older and weaker buffalo, and it would be pretty dangerous for the calves if they were not protected from the wolves by the other members of the herd. Our losses from wolves in the past were not serious, but we are carrying on an open warfare against them. We pay a very high bounty for the skin, and encourage the hunting of the wolf as much as possible.


John Millar: How much is the bounty?


Charles A. Stewart: Thirty dollars.


Arthur Edward Ross: Under this vote
there is investigational work carried on. What does that consist of?


Charles A. Stewart: The investigation is very largely investigation of the territory. For example, we have men who are investigating pastures for the reindeer. We have investigations of various matters going on there. There is the investigation, for instance, by these men who were sent up to hear the grievances and bring back reports.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion Lands and Parks
Salaries of the Dominion Lands outside service, $630,000.
Dominion land contingencies, etc., $170,000.
Amount required to pay the fees of the Board of Examiners for D.L.S., of the secretary and of the sub-examiners and for travelling expenses, stationery, printing, rent of room and furniture. etc. (The fees of Messrs. F. H. Peters, W. M. Tobey and Harry B. Parry, members of the Board, and J. A. Cote, secretary, are to be paid out of this sum), $2,000.
To assist in publishing the transactions of the Association of Dominion Land Surveyors, $125.
Protection of timber, tree culture, inspection and management of forest reserves, surveys of forest resources and research in forestry and forest products, etc., $1,466,050.
Grant to Canadian Forestry Association, $4,000.
For investigations of water and power resources, including the Dominion Hydrometrie survey and for the administration of the Dominion Water Power, Irrigation and Reclamation Acts, $500,000.
To cover professional assistance engaged by the governor in council to assist the departmental officers who are advising re international and boundary waterway questions, $15,000.
Amount required to meet expenses of Lake of the Woods control board, $10,000.
To provide for the expenses connected with Canadian National parks, historic sites, care of indigents in the parks, etc., and to reimburse the provincial government for the salaries of police magistrates at Banff and at Jasper, $1,-
315,000.
, 
Administration of the Migratory Birds Convention Act, $58,825.
Engraving, lithographing, printing and preparation of maps, plans, reports, and kindred publications of the Dominion, including salaries and necessary materials for same, etc., $239,540.
Costs of litigation and legal expenses, $10,000.
Ordnance, admiralty and railway lands:- salaries and expenses, $28,270.
Grant to Alpine Club of Canada, $1,000.
To pay Mrs. E. S. Forbes a compassionate allowance equal to one-half of the salary of her husband, payable monthly, $1,050.
Amount required to pay salaries and expenses connected with seed grain and relief collections, etc., $47,460.
Amount required to transfer buffalo from Buffalo park, Wainright, Alta., to the Wood Buffalo park near Fort Smith, N.W.T., $15,000. Total, $4,513,320.
Charles Herbert Dickie: The Minister of the Interior in February last contributed an article t<o the Natural Resources of Canada magazine which challenged at least my admiration. He said in part:
The great expansion of the pulp and paper industry indicated above is cause for concern as to the adequacy of pulpwood supplies to meet the future demands of the industry. It is my opinion that gross production has been developed as far as it should be, for the time being at least. Until we are more certain that our pulpwood supplies will sustain the industry on a permanent basis there is no justification for continuation of the rather hectic expansion witnessed in the past few years. Rather the time is more opportune for concentration of effort upon refinement of methods and the more complete manufacture at Canadian mills of pulpwood extracted from Canadian forests.
I wish the minister would implement these ideas with action with respect to the pulpwood situation in Canada, Last year Mr. Angus Graham, of the Quebec Forestry Association, in an address that he delivered at Tacoma on the Pacific coast, threw a little light on this subject by saying that in the province of Quebec there were 110,000 square mile's of pulpwood limits, and the pulpwood averaged 6.4 cords per acre. Last year we exported from Canada 1,500,000 cords of pulpwood. That represented an area of 360 square miles denuded of pulpwood timber, to be sent across the line to enhance the prestige and prosperity of the United States. It would seem to me that this is a serious state of affairs. We 'sent 1,500,000 cords of pulpwood across the line when we should have manufactured it here in our own country. We received for it $15,000,000. If that 1,500,000 cords had been manufactured into paper in Canada at $65 a ton, it would have produced $80,000,000 worth of paper. Deducting the $15,000,000 that we received for this 1,500,000 cords from the $80,000,000 that we would have received had we manufactured it into paper,

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
we have a loss of $65,000,000 to this country. If we had unlimited quantities of pulpwood the situation would be different, but as it is we can see the end of our supply. The Minister of the Interior sees the end of it and why is now not the time to put an export tax on pulpwood and let it go to the mills in our own country to be manufactured into paper here, giving employment to labour and tending to the enrichment of Canada generally?
1.500.000	cords of pulpwood, if manufactured in this country, would mean a population of
250.000	more for Canada. We are bribing people to come to this country to go on the land, to go here, there and everywhere. Why not induce them to come here by building up our industries and offering them opportunities? There is not one argument against preventing the exportation of spruce pulpwood. There may be some slight argument in favour of allowing poplar pulpwood to be sent across the line because there is hardly the demand for poplar here that we would like to see. It is a tree that grows rapidly and dies quickly. It may be all right to export poplar pulpwood across the line, until we develop the soda pulp process to a greater extend in this country. Economists tell us that it costs at least $25 a cord to raise spruce pulpwood timber here, and we are letting it go out of this country at $10 a cord. Let us look a little further into the future, and make this a country to which people will be attracted without the extraordinary inducements we have been offering them in the past.


Charles A. Stewart: This is a
matter that has been raised almost yearly. The department have been giving the question of an export tax some consideration, and I confess that to me it appeals very strongly. But this is one of the difficulties. Immediately, it is a tax that will be borne by the Canadian who sells the wood; he will have to accept a reduced price. In the maritimes and in Quebec I am told that the competition due to the wood going out of the country has the effect of raising the price for the pulpwood manufactured in Canada. There may not be a very great deal in that argument, but it has been presented to me. May I say why I am so much interested in this? If the present quantity of wood exported continued, the revenue from an export tax of 50 cents to $1 a cord would enable us to extend our fire protection activities to a much larger degree without calling upon the treasury for any money. The objection raised when this matter has been discussed is that a large proportion of the pulpwood, particularly from
the east, is under contract to American concerns. They have been coming into Canada and establishing plants at a pretty rapid rate during the last year or two. As to overproduction, we have reached that stage now, and I may point out to my hon. friend that beyond placing an export tax on our wood we have very little control over the provincial forests, other than those in the three prairie provinces and in the railway belt in British Columbia. But in Manitoba, where a very considerable export was going on, we now have established a mill and we do control the territory from which the operators get their supplies of pulpwood. I have made the deal contingent on those people purchasing nearly all the wood offered by the farmers and those who have private limits. I propose this year to have a survey of the cutting going on in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and next year I shall try to limit the extent of those operations. I know some of my friends from Manitoba will not like to hear this, because many of the farmers in the northern district earn their livelihood by cutting and selling pulpwood, and most of it goes over into the United States. Now we are keeping the bulk of it in Canada, and it will be manufactured at the Pine Falls mill in Manitoba. I do not think they will require to manufacture a single stick of pulpwood cut off their own limit; all will be purchased from settlers in the locality. That is what we have done where we control the situation. I am in hopes that our action will be followed by the provinces in dealing with this matter.


Charles Herbert Dickie: Already British Columbia,
Ontario and Quebec prohibit the exportation of timber except from privately owned lands. That is why I am asking the government to impose an export tax. This parliament is the only body with power to do so. I do not care for an embargo; I think an export tax should be levied. We have just passed the apex of the lumber industry, and from now on it will begin to decline. I have seen the forests wiped out in several states of the union, and I realize the seriousness of our own position. When we lose our forest wealth we are losing one of our greatest assets. It is all nonsense to talk of the yearly increment keeping pace with the yearly cut. It was said the other day ihat in Anticosti the annual growth would keep pace with the cutting of the timber. That is arrant nonsense to all who know anything about forest conditions. Let any hon. gentleman the next time he goes to Hull count the annular rings
3832	COMMONS
Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
on the pulpwood piled along the street at the boundary, and he will find that thirty-five, forty and fifty years is the age of those trees. Our spruce pulpwood is the best we have. Let us conserve it. Spend money ad lib to protect it, if possible, from insect pests and fire. But Jet us stop exportation, which is economically foolish. It can be done, sir, and now is the time.


John Millar: Does the tree-planting
forestry stations vote come under this item?


Charles A. Stewart: It comes under protection of timber, but my hon. friend may as well proceed.


John Millar: Since the forestry station at Indian Head is near my home I have gathered some information which I should like to present to the committee. The Indian Head treeplanting station was established1 in 1904. Another was established at Sutherland, Saskatchewan, in 1914. The purpose of these stations is the propagation and distribution of seedlings and cuttings for the formation of wind1-breaks; permanent plantations for forestry research; demonstration of fruit-growing and horticultural possibilities under tree protection. The early distribution of seedlings and cuttings to bona fide farmers has increased rapidly, from 58,800 to 47 farmers in 1904, to over
5,000,000 annually to between 5,500 and 6,000 farmers. Up to the spring of 1927, 93,000,000 broad leaf seedlings and cuttings and 2,568,000 evergreen seedlings and transplants have been distributed for prairie planting. This represents the establishment of between 45,000 and 50,000 windbreaks and shelter belts in the three prairie provinces. Observations are madte annually by tree-planting inspectors of thousands of plantations. In this way the service maintains a close check on the success of the distribution scheme. In 1921, 7,643 plantations were observed, and 6,292, or 83 per cent, were found to be in a good healthy condition; 1,331, or 14 per cent, were classed as in fair shape, and likely to respond to better treatment. In 1001 there were only 54 farmers requesting assistance in tree-planting. 1927 was a banner year in prairie tree-planting. 12.528 farms were listed for inspection either for further tree-planting or for new plantations. Indications point to a heavier demand in 1928. The appropriation for tree-planting in 1910 was $29,592. At the time the distribution averaged not more than 2,500,000 trees, and instruction service was given to 6,718 farmers. In 1926 the appropriation necessary to carry on the work had increased to $79,000. but close to 7,000,000 trees were being distributed, and inspection and transplanting services were 
being given to over 12,500 farmers. The estimate for 1928-29 is over $94,000, an increase of about 16 per cent. There are now 40,000 plantations, and these valued at $300 each would represent $12,000,000, or, $11,200,000 in excess of the total cost since 1.901. That gives in a concise form something of the work that is being done. For every dollar expended at this station the country is getting a full dollars' worth in return. The work is excellently supervised, and is carried on in a way which is likely to bring continued success such as has been achieved in the past. It is only fair that I should take this opportunity to express this appreciation of the work that is being done there.


John Anderson Fraser: On May 3 the minister replied to certain questions that I had on the order paper in regard to the discharge of a fire ranger in the railway belt in British Columbia, a Mr. W. E. White. The information is that after fourteen years' service Mr. White was discharged from the department for active political partisanship, although no complaint about his services had been received by the officials of the department. The minister says that he was discharged for active political partisanship. How is the fact established that he was a political partisan?


Charles A. Stewart: There are
about five or six thousand employees in the department and I cannot answer that question. I do not think we have the information here but we could get it at six o'clock.


John Anderson Fraser: Will the minister have that information here after eight o'clock?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, I will get it during recess.


John Anderson Fraser: I understand that an investigation was held and the report submitted to the department. This man requested a oopy of the report and it was refused him. He thinks, and I agree with him, that he is entitled to a copy of the report.


Charles A. Stewart: Was it an investigation before a commission?


John Anderson Fraser: Yes, by a commissioner.


Charles A. Stewart: He is certainly entitled to it.


John Anderson Fraser: The department refused it.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
understand that.


George Gibson Coote: I wish to refer to the regulations in regard to the control of natural gas.
I have here a clipping from the Calgary

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
Herald from which I learn that a gentleman named Davies, who is said to be an expert on this subject, states that:
Gas equivalent to 87J carloads of coal is being wasted at Turner valley daily, and 140,000 horse-power are being burned up daily as a result of gas wastage from wells now under production.
He states that the total gas production in Turner valley at the present time is estimated to be 91,500,000 cubic feet per day. Further on this statement is made:
Taking the figures of 22,000,000 as being the total average used each day, at present there are 91,000,000 less 22.000,000 or 69,000,000 cubic feet being burned each day. During the coldest winter days this amount would drop to
58,000,000, but in the warm summer days it
would rise to 81,000,000	Then, 20,000
cubic feet of Turner valley gas under average temperature and pressure in Calgary equals approximately one ton of good Drumheller coal. Then, 20,000,000 cubic feet of natural gas equals 1,000 tons of coal and 70,000,000 cubic feet of gas equals 3,500, tons of coal. There are forty tons to a car; therefore this means eighty-seven and a half cars of coal being wasted each day.
I will not quote further from this article but I wish to direct the attention of the minister to the fact that, according to this authority, we are wasting three times as much gas as we are using in the Turner valley field. That means that if we have a sufficient supply of gas to last Calgary and other towns sixty years, we are going to use it up in twenty 3rears and people will then have to go back to coal. Natural gas or even its equal * i3 something which it is almost impossible for us to produce once we have wasted it, and we shall have to go back to coal. There are many places in Ontario and the United States where natural gas has been wasted, and now that the fields are exhausted the people have had to resort to burning coal at a greater cost and certainly at greater inconvenience. Natural gas is possibly the best fuel for cooking and heating which we have, although of course it would not be difficult to get the hon. member for Bow River to except Alberta coal. I bring this matter to the attention of the minister because I find in the regulations, as printed and distributed by the department, the following under regulation 29:
In case natural gas is discovered through boring operations on a location, the lessee shall take all reasonable and proper precautions to prevent the waste of such natural gas, and his operations shall be so conducted as to enable him, immediately upon discovery, to control and prevent the escape of such gas.
Is the minister enforcing that regulation? Most of these wells are drilled on Dominion government land and I am sure he will realize
that something should be done. I ask him now whether he is taking steps to enforce the regulations; if not perhaps he would enlighten the committee as to the reason for not doing so.


Charles A. Stewart: The matter is one to which we have been giving a great deal of attention in our department, because the waste of natural gas is rather serious. We have tried to study the question and the results of our investigation would indicate that we cannot shut off that gas. The difficulty of holding the piping, under the most tremendous pressure which we encountered in the first wells, has been overcome by the cementing of the pipe into the limestone rock before drilling into the parent body itself. I had thought of reinforcing the piping from that point upward so that we might be able to hold the pressure. But after we had investigated that scheme to some extent we discovered that with any volume of flow through the four and a half inch pipe, you cannot make it a profitable undertaking for the extracting of the gasoline content, so that to that extent the well would be useless. We had therefore to abandon that idea. The thing that interested me most happened about three weeks ago. A gentleman said that if he got the assurance that he would have no difficulty in procuring gas and delivering it, he would undertake to organize a company to lay a pipeline as far as Winnipeg, piping this gas to Winnipeg and intervening towns and hamlets, and using it to that extent. As my hon. friend knows, there has been a very decided aversion to the exportation of gas; for about three years attempts have been made to secure permission to export gas from a well near the international boundary, and no one felt like taking the responsibility of permitting the export of that gas. Of course in that case it is not escaping, but if the oil industry in the Turner valley is to go on we must make provision for free flowage from the parent supply or it cannot be profitably taken off. We have proven that, and some method must be found to take care of the extra amount of gas which cannot be utilized for the purposes for which they are now using it. We have thought of lampblack, but as my hon. friend knows that article is so cheap that it is hardly worth while making the venture, and in addition it is a very expensive way of using the gas. However, I wish to assure my hon. friend that the Alberta government have become interested in this question and they propose to study it. I have been in communication with them and have offered such information as we have gathered, and in conjunction with them we are putting our men to
3834	COMMONS
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work to see if something cannot be done to utilize this escaping gas, which I agree should be curtailed and stopped as nearly as it is possible to do so without injuring the industry itself, because I think my hon. friend will agree that the industry is rather valuable. I may be frank in saying that I have thought that in connection with the territory we control we should discourage the sinking of any more wells until some method has been worked out for the utilization of this surplus product.


George Gibson Coote: I am glad to hear the minister say that he would like to stop the wastage of this gas, because this is really a very serious question. According to the estimates which I read, an amount of gas equal to about 3,400 tons of coal is being burned up every day.


Charles A. Stewart: There was
one thing I forgot to mention. About 60 per cent of the present volume of production is not under the control of the federal government; it comes from privately owned property.


George Gibson Coote: It seems to me that the government might very well go so far as to exercise control over that property also; I do not think that would be going beyond the powers which we should exercise. Let me bring to the attention of the committee and the minister section 29a of the regulations:
In the event of natural gas being discovered through boring operations conducted on a petroleum and natural gas location acquired under the provisions of the regulations-if the escape of such gas is not prevented-the minister may take such effective means as may appear to him to be necessary or expedient in the public interest to control and prevent the escape of the natural gas-[DOT]
It seems to me that those words are very clear; if it is in the public interest to prevent this waste the minister has the power to step in and take any measures which may be necessary to that end. Personally I think the minister might go the limit in preventing this waste, and I also think that if he has no effective way of preventing the waste of gas from the wells already drilled certainly he should discourage the drilling of any more wells until such time as he is willing or able to take measures to prevent this waste. It may be going quite a long way to suggest that we prevent the drilling of these wells, but I think this is one of our most valuable natural resources, and in the exploitation of our resources there is nothing I dislike more than to see that gas burning away every day. There is such a volume of gas burned that at night the reflection of the fire can be seen for a distance of fifty miles. It is quite a sight, and

is worth going a long distance to see, but every time I see it I am impressed with the way we are wasting our natural resources. It is a shame; I do not know any other word for it. I do not want to lay all the blame on the minister; possibly he finds himself in a difficult situation, but if he would enforce the regulations which I read and which were in force when the leases were granted I think he could stop the waste. The last regulation which I read gives him power to act in the matter, and as far as I am concerned I would go a long wiay in supporting him if he would stop the waste of the gas.


Charles A. Stewart: While we
might make all the regulations in the world we could apply them only where we have jurisdiction, and we have not jurisdiction over privately owned lands in Alberta. I am not seeking to escape in that way; I do not want my hon. friend to think I am looking for a way out, but two difficulties are created. One difficulty is that the same field of gas which is under the privately owned lands is also under the lands controlled by the Dominion, upon which we issue leases. That land we can control, but if we shut down our people immediately they would have a complaint beoause the people on the other land could continue. That difficulty can be overcome only by co-operation between the two governments. My hjon. friend knows the value of that industry; if we shut it off at once and stop the individuals or companies who have spent large sums of money to develop that field we would face a great deal of contentious criticism. However, I am thoroughly alive to the wastage which is going on and no one deplores it more than I do. I would hesitate very seriously before issuing a lease which would permit more wells to be sunk on Dominion lands until we find at least some partial remedy for this waste.


George Gibson Coote: Is it not true that a number of wells have been started on Dominion lands within the last year? We had this question up last session, and I know the minister then admitted the importance of the matter. If these wells were allowed to be drilled last year and we do not take any steps now, probably a number of additional wells will be drilled this year and it will be all the more difficult to stop it. This has been going on now for two years; it is getting greater all the time and that is why I am taking the time of the committee to try and interest them in the matter. I think

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
parliament would not be going too far if we put privately owned lands under the same regulation, provided we have power to do so.


Charles A. Stewart: We cannot do that.


George Gibson Coote: I do not think we should
allow any person to waste such a valuable resource, and personally I do not think we would be going too far if we took that action.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.


[Stage Direction]
AFTER RECESS

The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
John Frederick Johnston: The item under consideration is No. 280, page 57 of the estimates.


Henry Elvins Spencer: The first comment I have to make is on the way this item is set out in the estimates. There are eighteen or more very important items under one vote, and I think these should be taken one at a time, because they are all quite different. The Chairman has called all at one time a vote of over 84,500,000, comprising a large number of different items, and if we are to discuss this vote in any reasonable way it should be taken up item by item.
While we are on this vote I should like to say a few words to the minister. He, as well as the rest of the house, knows that there have been reasonable or unreasonable charges made against the department over which he is the head. It is not fair to him, to us, or to the people at large to have these criticisms being continually made against any department of the government if they are unfounded. The charges that have been made cover a great many items, but in order to discuss them I do not think it necessary to hold up all the items in the estimates relating to the Department of the Interior; if the minister would just pick out some particular item or items to which these charges haVe reference, that should be sufficient. It would save time in getting the estimates through, and it would give the house an opportunity to discuss any matter of importance that might be involved in these various charges. I fully appreciate that the minister is head of only too many departments, and I do not see myself how he can personally keep in detailed touch with everything that goes on under him. I am therefore going to ask the minister to be good enough to take some item in his estimates under which he can discuss these charges.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no particular item upon which it can be taken up, because these charges-I would call them so-called charges-have been levelled at the department and departmental officials. They have referred not only to the Department of the Interior, but to all departments of the government.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I understand the most
of them are made against the Department of the Interior.


Charles A. Stewart: What does my hon. friend want me to do in the matter? If he will mention any particular charge I will answer it.


Henry Elvins Spencer: There are not many hon. members in the house to-night, and I suggest that one item be left over until to-morrow.


Charles A. Stewart: I should
prefer to discuss it right now.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I understand that a man by the name of McClymont was engaged as an accountant in the Department of the Interior. I believe he was told by a deputy minister of that department to make certain investigations, and these took some seven months. I want the minister to correct me if any statement I make is not right. A report was made in due course and signed by the. deputy minister of the department, but I understand no action was taken regarding it. The compiler of the report at a later date threatened through the press to make certain statements with regard to what had been going on in the department, and I believe an order in council was passed appointing a special commission to look into the charges, or, as the minister says, the so-called charges. This commission was composed of one man, a Mr. Smith, who unfortunately has been known in Ottawa for a number of years as a very strong partisan. This commission sat in camera, or what I would call double camera, because certain information which was requested to be taken down was not taken down at all. After this commission had finished its work a report was made that not one dollar of the public money had been misappropriated, and this statement has been commented on, I understand, privately and publicly. The man himself has been let out from the department, and I should like to know from the minister if he was an efficient accountant, and why he was let out. I should like to know why he has not been punished if
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these charges are false, and why no recommendations have been carried out if they are true. I should be glad to have the minister answer these questions.


Charles A. Stewart: I think my hon. friend has given me a pretty big job; if I were to attempt to answer all the statements that have been made by this individual it would take several hours. Anyone who has read his statements in the public press, particularly the western members who are fully cognizant of the statutes under which the department have to carry on their affairs, should at once come to the conclusion that if all the statements made by this individual were on a par with those made by him with respect to the administration of the school lands in western Canada, not very much credence could be given to any of them. By the way, has my hon. friend read the report of the commissioner?


Henry Elvins Spencer: No, I have not read it
all.


Charles A. Stewart: I suggest
that he read it all, and that he also read the evidence. While the evidence was being taken in this building there was no attempt to exclude the public, but these so-called charges were made against the officials of the department, and surely they were entitled to the opportunity of refuting the statements made against them. That was done, and that was all that was done.
This individual has repeatedly made the public statement that the Department of the Interior had, through their administration of the school lands fund and the purchase of school lands in western Canada, paid $100,000,000 more than they were entitled to pay. There is a simple answer to that and that is that he assumes we are to ignore statutes and agreements and to charge simply the 5 per cent rate rather than the 7 per cent rate that we as trustees were to collect from purchasers of school lands in arrears. That is how he arrives at the $100,000,000. That is one statement he makes. My hon. friends, I understand, have met this individual and have discussed matters with him for several hours.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Will the minister give his authority for that?


Charles A. Stewart: That is the information I have. If I am wrong, my hon. friend is quite at liberty to say so. My hon. friends have also put on the order paper certain requests for information with respect to the sale of school lands. It is a fact, is it not, that we have them on the order paper?

I neglected to file the complete files in connection with those matters. May I say this, that with the single exception of a statement made that we had purchased chain which turned out to be anchor chain instead of logging chain which we thought we were purchasing, the department apparently, so far as I can learn, has not done anything amiss. I have the utmost confidence in Mr. Smith and I know of no reason on earth why he should care to shield the department. Those were not the instructions he got and he has not been in the habit of doing that, because he is an honourable gentleman. He had all the evidence that this man had to offer. He asked this man, on half a dozen occasions, as the evidence will disclose, if that was all the evidence he had to offer, and according to the evidence he said that he was through; that every statement he had to make had been presented and was embodied in the report. I do not wish to make with respect to this individual statements that would reflect in any way upon him, but anyone who has read the statements in the newspapers-and I have been bombarded with them now for nearly two years and I have never yet met this individual-will consider them a sufficient answer in themselves, without going much further into them. My hon. friend has asked certain questions and I propose to take up certain of the charges and to give the committee an answer as to those particular ones. I shall be glad at the first opportunity to file the complete papers in connection with each case in order that these matters may be fully investigated. My hon. friends will pardon me if I do not take them just in sequence. The first one is as follows:
Refund Case 1
Ethel Truscott, widow, Battleford - $100 refund due her re overpayment made-sale 1060-file 31458.
This relates to the sale of the southeast quarter of section 11, township 50, range 2, west of the 4th meridian, which land was sold at Llo.vdminster on the 23rd June, 1909, to Mr. Alex Gordon at the rate of $10 per acre, and was assigned in April, 1911, to Mr. George C. Hodson.	.
In July, 1912, Mr. L. H. Truscott paid into the department $72 on account of accrued interest and under date of the 19th July, 1912, a receipt for the money was sent to Mr. Truscott. and he was advised that said receipt was made out in the name of Mr. George C. Hod-son. the recorded holder, and further that if he had acquired the interest of said George C. Hodson it would be necessary to file an unconditional assignment from Mr. Hodson to himself and have same registered in the department in order that the land might be recorded in his name and the department recognize him as the recorded holder.
In March. 1919, Mr. Edward Plater advised the department that Mr. Lewis H. Truscott

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
was killed at the war in September, 1918, and that he was endeavouring to acquire this land from the estate and Mr. Plater was then advised as to the necessary action to take in order to have the land transferred to him.
In November, 1919, Messrs. Livingston and Atkinson who were acting on behalf of the representatives of the estate of the late Mr. Truscott advised the department that the widow was left in poor circumstances with a small family and that they thought it only fair that she be not required to pay any penalty such as an increased rate of interest, as provided for in the amendment to the Dominion Lands Act of 1918.
The writers were advised in reply that as the original purchaser of the land was not exempt from paying the increased rate of interest by virtue of his having served overseas, and that as the land was not registered in Mr. Truscott's name prior to his enlistment, it would seem that the estate would not be exempt from paying the increased rate of interest.
In May, 1920, Mr. Edward Plater forwarded to the department letters of administration of the estate, together with an assignment from the representative of the estate to himself, on the strength of which entry for the land was placed in the name of Mr. Plater in June, 1920.
On the 28th June, 1920, Plater remitted a draft for the sum of $2,116.89, as payment in full. This amount, however, when applied as short $2.03, which was afterwards remitted by Plater, and patent issued in his favour bearing date of the 25th August, 1920.
It would appear that Mr. McClymont's claim that Mrs. Truscott is entitled to a refund of $100 would be due to the fact that she was charged the regular rates of interest instead of the old rate of 5 per cent on the outstanding principal. This refund, however, was not allowed in view of the facts as set out above; furthermore the only amount paid on account by Truscott was $72.00 in the year 1912, the payments made in 1920 being made by Plater after he had acquired the land by purchase.
That is No. 1. May I say in passing tlhat I have no authority to grant refunds of any sort? I am acting as trustee for the school land fund in this case for all the prairie provinces and it is agreed that when arrears accrue on school land, the rate of interest shall be seven per cent. That is statutory and we have no control over it. That is the explanation in regard to the claim that we have retained out of that sale $100 which are not entitled to retain. Refund No. 2 is as follows:
S. McKeown, Saskatchewan, farmer-$100. Refund due him on sales 495-496-cheque sent in for $478.-Only $378 credited.
This relates to the south half of section 11, township 18. range 28, west of the second meridian, file 3025, S. L. At an auction sale of school lands held at Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, on May 26, 1903, Mr. Andrew McKeown purchased this half section and assigned his interest therein in 1905 to Stephen McKeown. In December, 1911, Mr. McKeown tendered a draft for $478.44 and this was applied as follows:-Principal, $263.10-interest $115,34, while the receipt issued for $478.44, showing principal as $363.10 or $100 over the amount actually credited to the accounts.
This was not discovered until recently and we have found that we are in error in that extent. Of course the land has since been sold to Mr. Forsythe, who was granted patent for the land and as soon as we can make an adjustment of the case we are prepared to refund the overpayment on that account.
John Gair, farmer, Killam, Alberta-
Some of my hon. friends will know him. This is one of the oases that I helped to adjust. This is a case again where the most misleading statements are made with respect to school land sales and taxes.
Refund Case 3
John Gair, farmer, Killam, Alberta-$107 refund due him re overpayment of N.H. 11-43-13 4.
This relates to the west half of section 11, township 43, range 13, west of the 4th meridian, files 159518-159520 S.L.
According to our records Mr. Gair acquired this half section on the 17th November, 1916, at an auction sale of school lands held at Sedgewick, Alberta.
Mr. Gair apparently being unable to meet the indebtedness on the half section made application to the department to have the sale of the southwest quarter cancelled and have the moneys paid thereon applied on the northwest quarter.
I may say that I consulted with the provincial authorities in Edmonton about this very matter. It was in the early days when we were beginning the consolidation of these lands.
The provincial authorities, who seemed very intimate with the case, were agreeable to the consolidation of these sales and Mr. Gair was advised that if he would file a quit claim deed of his interest in the southwest quarter, the department would cancel the sale and apply the moneys paid thereon on the northwest quarter which he wished to retain, on the distinct understanding that there would be no refund of any moneys overpaid after making the adjustment.
It would appear, after making the necessary adjustments, that there was a credit balance of $702.62, which was retained by the department.
From the records I can find no foundation for the claim of Mr. McClymont that the department owes Gair $107. I might also refer you to Mr. Stafford's memorandum of the 26th ultimo addressed to the deputy minister in connection with this particular case.
What I want to make clear is this, that where there is a consolidation, where we got a quit claim deed for a portion of the property under sale and the moneys are applied on the balance of the property, we do not if there is an over-payment make any refund. We consider that the peaceful possession of the land for a period of from eight to ten years fully justifies us in keeping these moneys. May I
3838	COMMONS
Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
say that if there is anything wrong about this, it is in agreement between ourselves and the provincial governments, whose trustees we are in connection with the administration of these school land funds.
Refund Case 4
Robert Robertson, Lanark. Ontario-$357 refund due him re overpayment on sales 34313433.
This relates to section 11, township 10, range 6. east of the principal meridian, files 1338081-82-83 S.L.
This section was acquired by Mr. Robert Robertson by virtue of assignments registered from the former recorded holders.
The department made several demands from Mr. Robertson for payment of the arrears and in 1919 he communicated with the department, pointing out that owing to the war and the moratorium, he was unable to collect moneys due him. therefore was not in a position to reduce the indebtedness.
In 1922 he filed a declaration that he had erected on the lands very substantial improvements.	In March, 1924, Mr. Robertson
approached the department, requesting that he be permitted to surrender his interest in the sales comprising the east half of the section, and have the moneys paid by him applied on account of the purchase price of the west half, and Mr. Robertson represented at the time that he was about 80 years of age and that he was desirous of cleaning up all matters of this nature before he passed away. Representations were also made on his behalf by other interested parties, and in view of the proposed amendment to the Dominion Lands Act to provide for consolidation of sales, the department agreed to grant the request of Mr. Robertson, but it was clearly understood that no refund would be made of any moneys after consolidation had taken place.
After we had made the necessary adjustments and cancelled the sales comprising the east half of the section, it was found that there was a credit balance of $357.44, which money was retained by the department.
As Mr. Robertson agreed to the consolidation under the conditions set out by the department, I claim that he is not entitled to any refund. In this case I would also draw your attention to memorandum of the 13th ultimo addressed to you by Mr. Stafford.
Refund Case 5
W. S. Featherstonaugh-$238 refund due him on account overpayment on sale 3818-file 79720.
This relates to the northeast quarter of section 29. township 32, range 4, west of the 2nd meridian, file 79720 S.L.
In regard thereto I might state that Robert W. Cumming acquired this land at Canora, Saskatchewan, by purchase at public auction on the 4th November, 1912.
In February, 1914, Messrs. Langworthy and MeComber, barristers, of Port Arthur, advised the department that their client. William S. Fetherstonhaugh of Cochrane, Ontario, had acquired this land from Mr. Cumming, and under date of the 12th March. 1914, the writers were advised that in order for Mr. Fetherstonhaugh to be recognized by the

department it would be necessary to file a quit claim deed from Mr. Cumming to himself and have same registered in the department.
Several demands were made from Cumming, the recorded holder of the land, for payment of the arrears, and in October, 1918, we received a further letter from Messrs. Langworthy and MeComber advising that they were forwarding a quit claim deed from Cumming to Fetherstonhaugh; that Mr. Fetherstonhaugh was a civil engineer and was away on some work, and that it would be some little time before they could get in touch with him.
In October, 1918, we advised the writers that they should file with the department the quit claim deed in their possession in order that the advisability of recording Fetherstonhaugh as the holder of the land might be considered.
In reply the writers advised the department that Mr. Fetherstonhaugh had been at the front with the Canadian forces for some considerable time, and that they were endeavouring to locate him in France and would communicate with the department further at a latter date.
In November, 1918, Messrs. Langworthy and MeComber submitted for consideration an assignment from Cumming to Fetherstonhaugh, but as this was not properly executed and as further documents were required, the assignment was not registered at the time.
Numerous communications passed between the department and the interested parties in regard to the transfer of this land and in January, 1920, Mr. Fetherstonhaugh signed an agreement to pay 7 per cent on ail arrears of principal and interest.
In January, 1920, Messrs. Boland and Cumming, barristers, of Yorkton, forwarded a quit claim deed in favour of Mr. Fetherstonhaugh, which was registered in the department on the 18th June, 1920.
Mr. Fethersonhaugh does not appear to have made any representations to the department for a reduction in the rate of interest charged in view of his services overseas, and had he done so his request in all likelihood would have been refused, as he did not come into possession of the land in so far as the department is concerned, until the year 1920. Mr. Fetherstonhaugh failed to make any payments on account for a considerable length of time and in view of the representations made to the department to the effect that he was not living in the district, but was residing at Calary, Alberta, we granted him an extension of time of thirty days from the 27th March last within which to make a substantial reduction in the indebtedness and we also instructed the agent of Dominion Lands at Prince Albert on the same date to have an inspector make an inspection of the land and report as to the improvements thereon and as to the advisability of cancelling the sale.
I want to make clear to the committee that we do not cancel these sales until every effort has been made and every opportunity given to the purchaser to make payments if it is at all possible for him to do so.
Refund Case 6
W. H. Kemp, Innisfail, Alberta-$700 refund due him re overpayment on H.S. 29-35-28 M'. 4.
This would appear to relate to the south half of the northwest quarter of section 29, township 35, range 28, west of the 4th meridian,

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
files 845-1742 S.L., as Mr. Kemp does not appear to have ever had any interest in the south half of this section.
In regard to this case it would appear that the northwest quarter was sold at Innisfail on the 2nd November, 1905, to Mr. Norman W. Stiles, he subsequently relinquishing his interest in the north half of the quarter section to Edgar T. Stiles by assignment.
When this assignment was registered the account for the northwest quarter was divided and a new account opened for the north half of the quarter section under the name of Edgar T. Stiles, and of the amount of the first instalment paid $70 was credited to this account.
Norman W. Stiles afterwards assigned his interest in the south half of the northwest quarter to William H. Kemp, and from checking the records it would appear that Mr. McClymont found what he supposed to be an error in the sum of $70, which he thought should have been refunded to Mr. Kemp but which amount was applied on the sale to Mr. Edgar T. Stiles. We certainly do not owe Mr. Kemp any $700 as stated by Mr. McClymont.
Kefund Case 7
Peter Albers farmer, Waterglen, Alb.-refund $15,913 due him on account overpayment on section 29-43-22 W. 4th. Interior charged him $34.79 per acre, while, under the law (S.S. Act) we could only legally charge him $12.-the original departmental valuation, as this section was bought for a returned man.
This relates to section 29, township 43, range 22, west of the 4th meridian, files 11071-56312293925 and 29642 S.L., and in regard thereto, I might state that the Secretary Treasurer of The Great War Veterans' Association of Canada wrote the department in July 1920 that John Albers and C. J. Annas, two returned soldiers, were desirous of acquiring the north half of this section through the Soldier Settlement Board and that owing to the provincial government and the board being unable to agree on a price they were unable to secure the land.
The agreement between the authorities of the province of Alberta and the board was called off shortly after the board arranged to purchase school lands for returned soldiers, consequently under date of the 12th August, 1920, we notified the secretary treasurer of the Great War Veterans' Association that Messrs. John Albers and C. J. Annas could only purchase the lands in their own right by sale at public auction, in accordance with the provisions of the Dominion Lands Act.
The land was offered for sale in November 1920 and was disposed of at Donalda, Alberta, on the 19th of that month, the south east quarter at the rate of $26.00 per acre, the south west quarter at the rate of $30.00 per acre, the north east quarter at $41.00 per acre and the north west quarter at $42.00 per acre. Mr. Peter Albers acquired the whole section.
The lands were sold at public auction and knocked down to the highest bidder in accordance with the terms and conditions of sale, and I do not think as represented by Mr. McClymont that the Soldier Settlement Act has anything to do with this case.
The lands have been paid for in full and patent issued to Mr. Peter Albers as on the 23rd M*v. '921, a-d Mr. Albers is certainly not entitled to any refund.
Refund Case 8
C.P.R. Company-$5,377 refund due the company (principal $3,073 plus 15 years interest $2,3041 on Sask. sale 4427-file 27012-fiat 272343 covering 13.65 acres land required for right-of-way for Weyburn-Lethbridge C.P.R. in 1913. We charged them $255 per acre while legally we could not charge them more than $30-the departmental valuation.
This would appear to relate to right-of-way of the Canadian Pacific Railway through the south half and north west quarter of section 11, township 8, range 30, west of the 2nd Meridian, file 27012 S.L.
In regard to this case the Canadian Pacific Railway Company made application to acquire right-of-way in the above mentioned land in October 1912, and in view of their representations the land was offered for sale, subject to reservation of the areas required for right-of-way.
When the land was disposed of by sale the south east quarter brought $190.00 per acre, the south west quarter $375.00 per acre, and the north west quarter $215.00 per acre, and the department decided to dispose of the areas required by the railway company for right-of-way at the same prices as those obtained for the areas disposed of by sale at public auction.
Under date of the 21st November 1912 an order in council was passed granted authority to sell to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company the areas required for right-of-way at the rates referred to above.
Messrs. Ewart, Scott, McLaren and Kelley, solicitors for the railway company, protested against the valuation, claiming that they were informed that the land was only worth $30.00 per acre as farm land, and that the increase was due to the fact that they had located terminals at this point and established a townsite there.
The matter was submitted for consideration by the late Mr. Checkley under date of the 27th December 1912, and it was ruled that the price as fixed by sale of balance of section must stand. The company, therefore, made payment of the required amount in May 1913, and patent issued for the areas taken by the company on the 27th June, 1913; therefore, the department does not owe the Canadian Pacific Railway Company the amount claimed by Mr. McClymont, and I claim that we were perfectly within our rights in charging the prices which we did for the rigt-of-way in this land even though the fact that the railway company established its terminal at the point did increase the value.
Now I have covered every case. I am prepared to make returns in connection with them, and my hon. friend will find from the files that these sales were made under those conditions. I may say that these are a sample of the charges that have been made by McClymont with respect to the hundred other matters which he mentions but which I have not the time to go into. I have referred to the hundred million dollars that was to be saved by the department. The fact remains that in all this controversy I have been bombarded with letters from McClymont that if I would give him a job in the department at
3840	COMMONS
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$3,600 a year, then this persecution-I can call it nothing else-would cease. All I have to say is that I am not going to give him a job. He left of bis own volition two or three years ago, spent a month writing articles of a similar character, and published them in the newspaper at his own expense, but when asked why he had absented himself from his duties he could give no reasonable explanation.
As to the investigation mentioned by my hon. friend, he made some statements with respect to the action of certain officials. They were called in and refuted those statements. I have no complete knowledge of it, but my hon. friend will find full details in the evidence submitted before the commissioner. I have simply taken these from a mass of statements that have been made by Mc-Clymont, who has paid out of his own pocket for every page of advertising that he has inserted in the Ottawa Journal. I never thought they warranted even an answer through the press. I am simply answering some of those statements now because my hon. friend has brought the matter up. H there are any other statements or charges that my hon. friend desires to have answered, I shall be glad to get the information for him. I have carefully read the report prepared by Mr. Smith, and with respect to my hon. friend's statement that Mr. MoClymont was not given the fullest opportunity to present every tittle of evidence he might have, I wish to say the report discloses that he was asked the question on at least two occasions, and in reply said that he had filed every state* ment which he desired to make.
I do not think, Mr. Chairman, that the matter is worthy of further discussion.


Henry Elvins Spencer: The minister has stated, Mir. Chairman, that he understood I had seen Mr. MoClymont for possibly three hours. This is entirely incorrect. I think any man who 'has a grievance has a perfect right to go to a member of parliament, and the member should listen to him. I have seen this man. Personally I think the minister would have done well had he himself given him an interview eighteen months ago, and thus have avoided a lot of unpleasant advertising of the department. As to the man's having had a fair show at the inquiry held by Mr. Smith, in my opinion it would have been much better for the department itself and the country as a whole if the matter had been brought before the publie accounts committee instead of being dealt with in camera. I am informed that when the witness was giving some rather stinging evidence the reporter 
was instructed not to take it down. I shall be very glad to have the minister refute this if it is untrue, for certainly if my information is well founded the witness was not fairly treated. As I say, these charges, whether true or false, have been in circulation for a long time, and to those of us who take a pride in the department it is not pleasant to see such charges ignored. They should have been dealt with promptly. I have brought the matter up in a spirit of kindness, and I should have thought he would have been glad of the opportunity to dispose of them once for all; instead of that the minister apparently is peeved.


Charles A. Stewart: The minister is not peeved.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I do not know whether the man is right or not, but I have brought the matter up to give the minister an opportunity to clear it up once for all, if it can be cleared up.


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot
state definitely that the reporter was instructed by the commissioner not to take down the evidence referred to, but I have seen no record of such instructions having been given. I have read some of the loose statements made by this man since the inquiry was held. May I say that after absenting himself for thirty days on the first occasion when he was let out, in order to' be fair to him the assistant deputy minister took him on for a further period as a temporary employee, by arrangement with the Civil Service Commission. But we could not put up with a man of his temperament, for apparently he does not wish to render the kind of service we expect from the civil service. I want to say here and now, Mr. Chairman, that no matter how much advertising anyone may direct against me or my department, I am prepared to meet any charges openly and fairly. I am not at all incensed because my hon. friend has brought the matter up, but I do say that had he carefully perused the evidence and secured from the department the information contained in the file, I think he would have satisfied himself that the charges were without foundation. I think anyone reading oarefully the statements appearing in this man's advertisements must reach the conclusion that the author himself has furnished a complete answer to every charge he has made. Far be it from me to deny a civil servant any right that belongs to him. He will always get justice from me. More than that, I shall be always ready to extend sympathy. But no department can

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afford to carry a gentleman who has demonstrated himself such a trouble maker as Mr. McClymont has done during the past two or three years.


Robert James Manion: I do not wish to discuss
the case at all. I have listened to the minister's explanation and I have no quarrel with it. I do not know the facts. May I say, however, in the most generous spirit of which I am capable, that in appointing a commissioner it would be wise for the government, either the present or any other, to select someone who is beyond all possibility of being regarded as having political prejudice. I say nothing against Mr. Alexander Smith. I know him and I like him; I have not a word to say against him. But I understand that for many years he was an organizer for the Liberal party. While of course that reflects no discredit on him, at the same time it does not alter the fact that in the eyes of the public he will have a natural prejudice in favour of the party. The minister, in my opinion, should have appointed as commissioner one who could not by any stretch of the imagination be looked upon as being prejudiced. I am not saying that the commissioner in this instance was prejudiced, but I suggest that it would have been well to appoint someone who could not possibly be regarded as susceptible to prejudice-someone such as a judge, either of the county court or of any of the other courts-to inquire into the matter. The commissioner should be a man absolutely above political favouritism of any kind, and in that case his report would be accepted as being possibly more conclusive than the report of a commissioner who, as everyone knows, has been perhaps a pretty strong Liberal. Possibly I should say partisan instead. I make this statement with no disrespect to the present commissioner, but I suggest that it would have been wiser, and in the future it would be just as well, to appoint a judge to a position of this kind.


Charles A. Stewart: I was never under suspicion personally. AH I was asked to do was to increase the salary' of this man and put him back to work and this advertising would cease. But may I say that, if we erred in that respect in the appointment of the commissioner, more than one-half of the charges are laid against the preceding government and their administration.


Robert James Manion: I don't care about that.


Charles A. Stewart: I know my
hon. friend does not care, but I am pointing 56103-243
out that personally I have never been charged in any way by this individual. It is the administration of his departmental associates from the deputy minister down.


Robert James Manion: As far as I could read
from the statements in the press he charged everybody in the government and a few on this side.


Charles A. Stewart: He was indiscriminate in his charges, yes.


Robert James Manion: What the minister has
said has not changed my view of what should be done in regard to the commissioner.


George Gibson Coote: I have not had time to read over the report or the evidence connected therewith, nor have I had time to read all the advertisements in the newspapers. I presume the minister would have no objection, after we have had time to read the report and the evidence between now and the next session, to our submitting to the public accounts committee any questions that might occur to us, or any matters in which we were interested in order to ascertain whether or not there has been anything irregular. That, I think, would be the proper course.


Charles A. Stewart: I should
be willing and ready to have the fullest investigation. As I say, I am personally not charged with anything in connection with this matter except that I would not put this individual back into the service of the department. Any time my hon. friends have had leisure to peruse this evidence, if there is anything in it which they feel needs investigation, the fullest opportunity will be given if I am here acting as minister.


George Gibson Coote: I have no expectation that I shall find time to read it all although I might. My only reason for mentioning the matter at all is that it has received so much publicity, and there may be people in the community- as a matter of fact I personally know there are some-who think that parliament should investigate the matter. Personally I have not had the time to look into it and I simply ask the minister to give us this assurance. I am glad to have his statement on the matter.


Mr. POULIOT:: Did that fellow Mc-
Clymont ask for $50,000 a year to save millions to the country?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
know about $50,000 a year, but I believe that is the statement he made as to saving millions to the country.



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John Evans: I wish to ask the minister a question regarding the raising of buffalo. There are one or two ranchers in Saskatchewan whe have applied for some breeding stock. They are willing to comply with the regulations of the department if the government will grant them two or three buffalo as the foundation for a herd. What policy is the government following in this regard? Is it possible for these men to get one or two buffalo from Wainwright, seeing that they are overstocked on that farm?


Charles A. Stewart: Our policy
is this. If the individual or the municipality will guarantee that the buffalo will be cared for properly, and if proper facilities are provided to enable the public in the particular locality to see them, we give two animals free of charge from the station at Wainwright. The cost of shipping and the responsibility will be on the individual or the municipality to take them from that point to destination.


Henry Elvins Spencer: Will the minister explain the increase of $110,420 in this item?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wish to make a few
observations with respect to the McClymont matter. I read the report of Mr. Commissioner Smith, not very carefully but sufficiently so to enable me to speak by reference to it. The commissioner made certain recommendations. He states first of all that if the department could be consolidated in one large building it would permit of greater supervision and would cut down expenses by allowing certain services to be centralized which are now duplicated in different branches. After referring to the report of 1922 which dealt with the observatory, he goes further and states:
I find that the work of the department has not only greatly increased but that the nature of the same in many eases has changed considerably. I find that the reorganization plan prepared by officers of the department, and adopted in 1920 by the minister, which has as its main feature the consolidation of related services and the reduction thereby of a number of branches from over thirty to twelve, will ensure the most efficient and economical performance of the department's many and varied duties.
I gather from this that the recommendations of 1920 have not been effected; there has not been a reduction from thirty to twelve. The recommendations were made in the year preceding the advent of the present administration and would have been carried into effect had this government not succeeded. That is

Mr. Smith's report. Then he makes certain major recommendations to which I direct the attention of this committee.
I have two major recommendations which I respectfully submit for your consideration. I am personally satisfied that if they are adopted they will afford a further check on any tendency to extravagance that might arise in the department. These are:
1.	That a greater measure of responsibility should be placed upon the secretary of the department in the matter of deciding the necessity for equipment and supplies requisitioned by the various branches of the department.
2.	That, whereas it is understood that the financial controller scrutinizes minutely all accounts, it should be a standard principle of administration that the advice of the financial controller be sought by the branch heads before any expenditure is recommended.
That report was signed by Alexander Smith. I regard these observations of the commissioner, together with the two major recommendations to which he refers, as being of great public importance. It was established in the mind of the commissioner at least that so long ago as 1920 a considered plan for the reorgnization of the department had engaged the attention of its officials and had been accepted and adopted by the then minister and that that plan of reorganization contemplated a reduction in the number of branches, if I might use that word, from thirty to twelve, and further that with respect to the purchasing of supplies the public purse would be better safeguarded if the principles to which Mr. Smith refers were applied to those purchases.
I leave that with those observations, but it must be borne in mind that for a period of weeks Mr. McClymont has been publishing in a newspaper of this city certain charges against the administration of the Department of the Interior. My friend the Minister of the Interior is quite right when he says that these charges are not all directed against 'him, although his name is mentioned in some of them. He is quite correct in saying that they do not refer to one administration or to two administrations; they are general and refer to a long period of time, and may be summarized in the following terms:	First, he
charges that excessive prices are paid for supplies and that the system adopted for the purchase of supplies is wrong. I have satisfied myself that that can be substantiated and abundantly proven. I think it is clear that the methods adopted to-day by the Department of the Interior with respect to the purchasing of supplies are wrong, and that a body appointed by this parliament as purchasing agents, for which we are appropriating substantial sums of money, does not properly

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function, because if they discharged their duties properly supplies for that department could be bought at much lower prices than are now paid. It is true that the prices are certified to by the Auditor General as being fair and reasonable; it is true that very often the prices are certified by the purchasing officer, whoever he may be, but the truth is that tenders are invited for supplies from a limited number of persons and that they fix the prices, which are out of all proportion to what the true prices should be. I say that, for instance, with respect to the national park near Calgary. A limited number of persons have their names placed upon a patronage list; that list is limited to a number of people who do a retail business and they are asked to supply soap, for instance, in large quantities. I know of a case in which a soap manufacturer, by accident seeing one of these advertisements, tendered for the amount required, but his deposit was returned to him. What is more, one of the superintendents of the park was told that he must consult with the defeated candidate before doing any particular thing with respect to the administration of that park. Then is it any wonder that officials make charges such as these? These are facts, not fancies, and I take it that that is the reason why Mr. Smith made the recommendations contained in his report.
I regard Mr. McClymont's very vague and general statements in the same way the minister regards them; he should not be charged with dereliction of duty in vague and general statements, it is true, but there are certain specific charges and one of them is that to which I have referred. I do say that I have satisfied myself from personal observation and investigation that these goods are not obtained for the lowest prices for which they could be purchased by the Department of the Interior or any of its branches; that favorites are chosen, political favorites, partisans, who may be doing retail business, for the purpose of supplying goods by wholesale. This does not apply only to the Department of the Interior; it applies to many other departments, to the Department of Public Works, for instance, and to other departments of the public service. This may have been the practice in this country before the war, but we did hope and believe that our experience with respect to purchasing commissions had been such as to end that sort of thing. Not only are goods purchased in the way I have described, but employment is given under conditions which I mentioned the other day. I read a letter to the committee, and my friend the Minister of Railways ad-56103-2431
mitted that the conditions to which I referred prevailed with respect to the Rideau canal. He was helpless at the moment to contend against those conditions. It is said that these conditions prevailed in 1911 and in 1912. It is true that these conditions did obtain in those years, but we did hope that by reason of the changed conditions in this country, by reason of the great burden of debt we are carrying and by reason of the necessity for the exercise of economy, this country would realize that we must get the most value possible for every dollar we spend. I say that is not being done in the public service at the present moment and that is one of the charges made by Mr. McClymont. Look at the estimates to-day; we find that a commission composed of two or three people have certain powers and obligations with respect to these matters.
The charges made by Mr. McClymont were first that there was not adequate supervision as to the quantity of supplies required and secondly that the financial controller did not exercise that control over these matters which he should exercise. Then what happens? We have Mr. Smith making these recommendations. These are his recommendations, and I am sure no one will charge Mr. Smith with having made these recommendations out of any great desire to find fault with a Liberal administration. In that regard I believe he was conscious of the necessity of greater carebeing exercised in the purchase of goods by public departments.
Then Mr. McClymont makes another charge; he charges that vast sums of money are being expended uselessly in Ottawa, and in the public press he gave his references to the cost of the maintenance of automobiles and the utilization of these automobiles by one particular family. He gave those particulars; are they true or are they not? If they are true, no officer of the department has a right to the use of a private automobile at the expense of the taxpayers of Canada, and we are told that the automobiles were used not for the purposes of public business but for the purpose of conveying him to and from his home and his place of business. If this sort of thing is to be done let it be done openly and frankly as a part of the conditions of his employment; if it is not to be done let us say so and let us stop it.
Mr. McCymont made other charges in connection with the administration of the school lands branch of the department and in connection with the sale of other parts of the public domain. With respect to that I qm'+r-

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
agree with the minister; these charges cover a very large number of cases; they cover lands in every part of the three western provinces and they cover contracts made with people in almost every part of the world. We have certain statutes in this country, and whether or not the terms of those statutes have been observed is a matter which should not be determined by this house in an hour, a day, a week or a month. These are matters of detail which require much examination and much consideration, but I have investigated two of these matters myself. Two of these charges concerned property near my community, one merely dealing with the sale of land to the town of Macleod and the other the sale of another small piece of land.
I think in that case the minister did what any minister would have done having regard to the conditions which prevailed in the town of Macleod, for instance, at that time. Macleod was a town which had made default, if I remember correctly, in connection with the payment of interest on its debentures. It had its power plant on a certain piece of land and had made default on the purchase price of the land. The minister put the land up for sale under conditions which ensured the town of being able to get this piece of land at about $20 an acre, which was more than it was worth at that time having regard to the conditions which prevailed in the town and as far as my knowledge goes it is more than it is worth at present. It seems to [DOT] me that is not a matter which should engage the attention of parliament at this time, but there are charges contained in these advertisements inserted by Mr. McClymont which reflect upon the civil service of the country and upon the administration of the Department of the Interior altogether apart from the minister, the departmental head. It seems to me that these charges make it incumbent that there should be some way by which those people who have read these advertisements in the newspaper may have their minds set at rest. That does not only apply to those of us in parliament; this newspaper has a wide circulation, and the advertisements have been read by large numbers of people. I have been asked what are we going to do about it, what the opposition propose to do. My answer is perfectly clear; no opposition and no member of parliament can undertake to deal with these questions, for the reasons which have been given by the minister. It does occur to me that there are reasons sufficiently strong in these advertisements to necessitate an inquiry by the public IMr. Bennett.]	:	; S
accounts committee with respect to the expenditure of public moneys for administration, the purchase of supplies, the payment of large living allowances, and matters of that kind. These are small matters and may look insignificant, but it only takes ten ten-dollar bills to make a hundred dollars, ten of those to make a thousand, and a thousand to make a million. We have got so much in the habit of talking loosely in thousands and millions that you would think this country was ready to hand out ten-dollar tips to waiters. That is not the sort of thing that should prevail, and I will give you an illustration of it.
I was told by a responsible minister of one of the greatest countries in the world that the head of his state had taken such an interest in the practice of economy, even in stationery and pencils, that they found it difficult sometimes to get along with their business. Friendly competitions had been invited among the representatives of that state in the various sections of the country with respect to pencils and stationery, and matters of that kind, which effected very great economy. Now, that all sounds piffle, and somebody says "Why should we waste the time of parliament about something like that?" But it was just that which made it possible for Mr. Coolidge to bring about the economy he did in the United States of America. Those who are interested and who will take the time to Tead what was said in the report in connection with the last budget regarding the savings accomplished by the methods I have indicated, will realize how desirable it is that we should look upon these matters in a different sense.
I am satisfied, from the evidence that I have read-I have not had time to read it carefully-and from reading these advertisements in a very casual way, that the money of this country is not being spent so as to get the largest possible value for every hundred cents that we take out of the exchequer. I am quite sure that the Prime Minister is anxious^ that this country's affairs should be economically conducted. It is not easy to do that, and nobody knows it better than I do. Nobody knows how difficult it is to ensure economical practice in the administration of the government and in the conduct of public affairs; we all know that. But where loose habits prevail; where the one who is in charge permits laxity to prevail, then you set up a condition whereby every man subordinate in position thinks it is his bounden duty to imitate his superior, and the result is that you have vast expenditures. I think it is to this that Mr. Smith refers in the last two paragraphs of his report.

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
First of all he mentions reorganization and consolidation of services, and the removal of a number of branches. Then he recommended imposing upon the secretary of the department the duties and functions of his office, and the supervision by the financial comptroller of all accounts, to bring about the results so much to be desired.
It will be borne in mind that the main document of nineteen pages upon which Mr. Smith predicates his final report against Mc-Clymont is one which was issued in 1922, and had to deal with the late Doctor Klotz of the observatory. That is the main document upon which the major part of his findings were predicated.
It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that while this committee cannot possibly investigate this matter and go into all these charges-if the word "charges" might be used -they are of such a serious character, not with respect to the minister but with respect to the conduct of the public service of Canada, as to require a full investigation before a special or standing committee of this house. It should be taken up at the very beginning of the session and carried through to the end, in order that those who have served the state faithfully, for a long period of years may be relieved of any odium that may be attached to them if they are innocent, and those punished who are found to be guilty. With the work we have had this session we have not had the opportunity to do any more than just look at this in a casual sort of way, but if we could call for the various files that may be concerned, we would be able to deal with it as it should be dealt with.
I heartily agree with the minister on the question of employment. No department could continue to employ one who has made charges of this character in the public press; it would be incompatible and inconsistent with the whole theory of public service that it should be done. I, for one, heartily support the minister in the view he takes, but it is hardly a fair assumption to say that all this has been done, all these sums of money have been expended by an individual merely for the purpose of trying to get back a job. Elementary intelligence would indicate to him that he could not possibly hope to get back his position after having gone through the ordeal that he did with respect to the investigation, or having made the charges which he has made in the public press. I quite agree with that, but I do think there still is left that residuum which necessitates the minister taking such steps as may be necessary to see that the
public service is vindicated and finding out if there is any foundation at all for what has been said. I cannot but think that there is some foundation, or Mr. Smith would not have made the observations he did.


Charles A. Stewart: So far as an investigation is concerned, may I say here and now that it will be welcomed at the next session of parliament. I quite agree with my hon. friend that it is not fair that any odium should rest upon any official of the Departs ment of the Interior, but perhaps sufficient has been said when I make the statement that I will welcome this investigation as I have always welcomed one in my twenty years of public service. I have always welcomed the fullest investigation into any matter that pertained to me or my administration.
I am interested in one or two things my hon. friend has said regarding the administration of the Banff park. He said that the list was confined to friends. My hon. friend would not suggest that the >man who perhaps gets the most money out of Banff park is more a friend of mine than he is of my hon. friend-Mr. Pat Bums.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I shall be glad to answer that.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no reflection intended. Mr. Pat Burns probably gets more money for supplies than any other individual. It is quite true that he gets it by tendering, but my hon. friend is a little confused in that connection.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I know what I am talking about.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend also said that he was informed by the park superintendent-


Richard Bedford Bennett: I said that the park
superintendent was informed that before he could take certain action he had to see Mr. Luney, recently appointed to the bench, and he came to Calgary for that purpose.


Charles A. Stewart: That is information my hon. friend got from the park superintendent?


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, I got it from a gentleman who interviewed him.


Mr. DUNNING:: Somebody told somebody else.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Somebody did not tell
somebody else. We will deal with this as a matter of business; this is not the Halifax hotel, it is the Banff park.


Charles A. Stewart: May I say to my hon. friend that my instructions to the
3846	COMMONS
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park superintendent, a gentleman in whom I have every confidence, have been to employ returned men, and he has been doing that. I have been accused on more than one occasion of employing more returned men than there was any necessity for, but so far as I know that is not true with respect to the park. I am quite willing to accept the statement made by my hon. friend that purchases of any moment are all tendered for. My hon. friend made the statement that on one occasion a soap manufacturer told him he was refused consideration on a tender for supplies.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was in the Indian
department.


Charles A. Stewart: That is a
department over which I have control, and I shall be very glad to have the particulars furnished to me so that they can be investigated. I promise my hon. friend that if this is true the party who refused that will be dismissed. I think that is fair.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That is fair.


Charles A. Stewart: I think I
should be furnished with the evidence.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I will tell you right now. It was in connection with supplies to the Indian department, and the name of the firm was the Royal Crown Soap Company.


Charles A. Stewart: Where is
their head office?


Richard Bedford Bennett: In this instance, their
head office would be at Calgary, but they also have an office in Winnipeg.


Charles A. Stewart: I misunderstood my hon. friend. I thought it was a tender for soap for the parks branch.


Richard Bedford Bennett: No.


Charles A. Stewart: It is for
the Interior department. I shall be glad to have that. The Royal Crown Soap Company-


Richard Bedford Bennett: They are manufacturers
of soap.


Charles A. Stewart: I understand that. With resipect to the administration generally, all I want to say in reply to what my hon. friend has said is that the reduction from thirty to twelve branches is almost complete.


Richard Bedford Bennett: In eight years.


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, well.
The Civil Service Commission have not yet completed the reorganization and classification of the lands branch. The latter have been 
denied that for four years and to some extent it is holding up the complete reduction to twelve branches as suggested in the report. But the number at the present moment does not exceed more than thirteen or fifteen and it will be reduced to twelve. Moreover, as regards some of this reorganization, I have been nursing perhaps a false hope that the natural resources would go back to the provinces and this has delayed making permanent many of the employees. I have refused to allow them to be made permanent in the hope that the natural resources would go back to the three prairie provinces and that there would be a large number of employees for whom we would not then have employment. That is my answer to the criticism that all these things have not yet been done. But I say here and now that at the next session of parliament I will welcome the fullest investigation if the request comes from a responsible member of parliament or any member of parliament.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


Charles A. Stewart: I am not
going to ask for investigations on the request of everyone who undertakes through the press or otherwise to malign or to cast reflections on the administration of the department. But on the other hand I and the officials of my department are prepared to come at any time before the public aocounts committee and to answer any charges that may be laid there.


George Gibson Coote: Just in regard to the statement which I think the minister made that goods would all be tendered for, would he say that the contract will be awarded to the party making the lowest tender?


Charles A. Stewart: In every
case to the lowest tenderer.


George Gibson Coote: In some cases the lowest
tenderer has not been awarded the contract, but a party submitting a higher tendter has been given the opportunity of having the contract >at the lowest price. I should like to know whether the minister will not say that in future the party submitting the lowest tender will be given the contract at that price instead of the man who has submitted a higher tender being allowed to make a second tender meeting the price submitted by the lowest tenderer? That is not entirely fair to the party who submits the lowest tender.


Charles A. Stewart: If that has ever happened, may I at once give my hon. friend the reason? It is because they have had business with the department on former

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands
occasions and the relationship has not been good, the goods supplied not being up to the mark. That is part of the difficulty we have to meet from time to time in connection with supplying goods to the department. I must take the word of my officials in that connection, but we do not make a practice of refusing to give the contract to the lowest tenderer and paying a higher price for the goods than the offer contained in that tender.


George Gibson Coote: In the case which I have in mind-and I am not going to take the time of the committee if I can get a satisfactory answer from the minister-so far as I was ever informed the department had no kick at all against the goods which had been supplied by this man. As a matter of fact I do not think he had ever before supplied the department with goods, but I think it was to enable the department to give the contract to a certain individual that he was allowed to supply the goods at the price offered by the lowest tenderer. I do not think that is fair and the minister in future would be well advised if he would give the contract to the lowest tenderer instead of giving somebody else a chance to meet that price.


Charles A. Stewart: My reply to that is simply this, that the only reason for refusing to deal with the lowest tenderer in any case would be that the goods previously supplied had not been satisfactory. We make it a practice throughout the department to accept the lowest tender unless there is reason to believe that we are not getting the value. When we do not accept the lowest tender, we make it a practice not to accept goods at a higher price than the price quoted in that tender.


Alan Webster Neill: I might mention a case that occurred a couple of years ago. Apparently the government of the day wanted ten cords of wood for a certain public building. That is not a very big amount, probably $50 or $60, and apparently they asked for tenders from five different people. Five different people could be calculated to give pretty fair comparative tenders on ten cords of wood and five tenders were put in. I hold in my hand a letter addressed from the government to the caretaker as follows:
I have your report saying you have received the following tenders for the firewood required for the public building in your charge-
Then follows the list of the five tenders at so much a cord, ranging from $6 up to $7.
-and you recommended the acceptance of the tender of-
Stating so-and-so, the lowest tenderer.
-10 cords, $60.
Since you invited these tenders the government has changed, and I am instructed to direct you to see the chairman or secretary of the local organization supporting the present government, show him this letter, and ask him to strike out any of the above names he is unable to recommend and to add any others he may wish you to consult. When he has completed the list, please ask each person named on it to quote a price for the firewood you need. When you have received these new tenders, please forward them to me with your recommendation on form "B".
I am sending you tender forms.
He tells him to fill them out.
If the chairman or secretary-
Of the local political organization.

concurs in your recommendation, please return all papers to me together with a letter from the chairman or secretary saying that he concurs in your first recommendation.
He was not even going to take the word of the caretaker. It had to be in writing. That is signed by the purchasing agent of the government. That was not a case of confining tenders to firms who had been invited to tender, but after the tenders had been received in sufficient numbers and the lowest tender was about to be accepted, orders were given to change the situation and to have the names struck out in the manner I have outlined. That letter is dated Ottawa, October 16, 1926.


Richard Bedford Bennett: That was after the change of government. I want to direct the minister's attention to the fact that during my absence I met a gentleman who deals very largely in a certain commodity and he desired to sell that commodity to the Banff park. He was told-and I will give the minister the name if he desires it-that this could not be dbne unless he telegraphed to Ottawa because he was not-


Charles A. Stewart: What were
the supplies?


Richard Bedford Bennett: The supplies were lubricants, gas and oil. The gentleman told me that. With respect to the soap matter, I will send the minister the letter. I want to go further. I was not complaining about the question of returned soldiers.


Charles A. Stewart: I did not
say so.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister knows perfectly well that what I was directing attention to was the fact that unfortunately we are still endeavouring to maintain the old idea that the defeated candidate for West Calgary
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should be the man who should determine who is to be employed in the public service of this country. I say that is wrong. When he mentions Mr. Bums, he knows perfectly well that Mr. Burns is not the gentleman who deals with this matter at all. It is the firm of P. Bums and Company, Limited, now Bums and Company, Limited, who are the only people who can supply the goods required. What is more, Mr. Burns always describes himself as a Liberal. I merely mention that so that no false impression may be left on the minds of the committee.


Alan Webster Neill: I am told, Mr. Chairman, that I made a mistake in the date of that letter, and I widh to apologize. It was not October; it was August 16.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Perhaps the hon. gentleman would give the name of the purchasing agent. He has read the letter.


Alan Webster Neill: I't was the government purchasing agent, Mr. Dawson.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I have been trying to get the floor for some time, after listening to this discussion which has been under way for almost an hour. I want to introduce a new subject, and that is the question of clearing land by fire. I should like to read this letter which appears in a return to an order of the house dated February 13, 1928. It is a letter to Mr. Wilson, of Peace River, signed by the Deputy Minister of the Interior, and is dated June 1, 1926. It reads:
I have your letter of the 12th April last, in which you request that a small grant be made to Mr. De Bolt for the purpose of enabling him to burn off a considerable acreage of bush land to facilitate settlement.
I am afraid it will be impossible to authorize any burning operations, save under strict departmental control. You will understand that if the grant were made to Mr. De Bolt, or any one else, and any damage resulted from the burning operations, the department would be held liable. This fact alone makes it necessary to impose the fundamental requirement that any burning operations must be strictly under the control of qualified officers of the department.
In addition, the report of Mr. Lonergan, Inspector of Surveys, which you quote, stresses the point that fire guards must be put in the first thing in the spring and burning done as early in the season as possible, because otherwise there is danger of damage to the soil itself. Unfortunately, for this year at least, the season in the west opened so early as to make it impossible to organize operations for this year.
The matter will be kept in mind, however, and I hope it will be possible to make arrangements to proceed with further experimental burning operations in the spring of 1927.

I would ask if it is the intention to go ahead with these burning experiments or operations during this year or in the spring of next year, and what the policy of the department is in regard to the matter.


Charles A. Stewart: The burning operations conducted in that locality some four or five years ago were apparently successful. I would hardly agree with the statement contained in the letter that we would not allow anyone else to burn on crown lands, because these are crown lands. First of all they have to be fire guarded for a respectable width in order to prevent the fire escaping, and the burning has to be done at a period of the year when the surface soil will not bum so that a good deal of care must be exercised. I really must say that I do not believe it is the duty of the government to do this work on a very large scale. We have carried out one experiment and have demonstrated what can be done. I am quite prepared, if the necessity arises and it is desirable to do so, to render some assistance to the settlers themselves. I think they can do it more acceptably than anyone else when they go in upon these lands. I know my hon. friend has in mind the burning off of half a township that would open up that land at once and make it more or less prairie land. We have carried out one experiment, and we do not feel that we should continue this kind of thing indefinitely.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: In view of the fact that some of the northern territories are being settled in spite of anything governments do or do not do, we ought to give this matter careful consideration, and I think it would be wise to go ahead and actually clear this land by fire. It seems to me ridiculous to be discussing settlement schemes in this house which contemplate the advancing of money or other assistance to clear land at a cost of upwards of $30 an acre, when the Department of the Interior through its own officials has demonstrated that this land can be cleared for less than $1 an acre.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: Is the hon. member really serious in making that statement? If so, I would like him to state the type of land that can be cleared for less than $1 an acre, the kind of wood that is on it, its size and thickness.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Land that would cost from $30 to $50 an acre to clear by hand was cleared by departmental surveyors for less than $1 an acre. That is the statement, and I can prove it if the hon. member wants me to take up the time of the committee.

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But suppose the figures are $15 and $5, where is the economy from the national standpoint in asking a settler to waste his time clearing land by hand which could be cleared for one-tenth or one-twentieth of the cost in a systematic way by government officials or others? When the minister takes the stand that he is prepared to assist the settler, I would point out that the land cannot foe cleared economically by that method, because you cannot follow the natural boundaries in providing fire guards. If you are going to guard against the fire getting away, it is necessary to take the open spots through bush land in order to get the proper fire guards, and you cannot follow the section or township lines. It seems to me the Department of the Interior could serve a very useful purpose by taking hold of this proposition. One of the great difficulties we have to-day in the province of Alberta, as the minister knows, is to supply transportation to outlying settlements. In some instances you have a strip of prairie, then a strip of bush land, the settlers do not care to take that up even if it is within ten or fifteen or forty miles of a railway, and the result is that they go back one hundred miles. In another five years there will be a demand from these settlers for two or three hundred miles of railway construction, even though they could have taken up land lying within twenty or thirty miles of a railway, but they preferred the land further back because it had been cleared by fire possibly set by somebody in a careless moment. I think the minister has lost a good opportunity to prevent the development in the next few years of a serious problem in connection with the providing of transportation facilities in the Peace River country at least, and possibly in northern Saskatchewan, by not undertaking this work.


Malcolm McLean: In view of what the hon. member has just told the committee, I think I should carry the matter a little further. I remember last year an inquiry was held by the railway and canals committee regarding transportation in the Peace River country, and a certain civil servant was brought in to the committee by, I believe, the hon. member for Peace River, who told us in that committee that it would cost not mpre than 15 cents an acre to set fires under certain satisfactory conditions. But to set fires costing 15 cents an acre is not clearing land. He told us further that the timber in that country was large and heavy, and that there was much of it. Everyone knows the type of land where the bush grows thick enough and large enough, and no grass or underbrush grows sufficient to fire except in dry times. If a man sets out a fire in those dry times it can
certainly be done cheap enough. I do not know why the price was set at 15 cents an acre. A single match from a box of the high-class matches we get across the river would set out a fire, and I do not know why the price was set so high. The member for Peace River I notice has the price elevated a little more. But when the witness was asked what it would cost to chop down the trunks and -pick up the stumps and burn them, he said, "Oh, the farmer -must do that himself." There is a good deal of experimental work being carried on as to the best and cheapest and quickest way of clearing land, but certainly it would not be a good thing for the minister of the interior to allow any of his men to spend much time or money setting out fires. It is very difficult at times to get a fire to run at all in heavy poplar brush, for there is nothing in the bottom to burn. The better way is to cut down the stuff that is not too large, by using a scrub cutter, and in smaller growth modern -tractors can plough the stuff down and in a few years it rots; but simply to set out fires is very far from making land fit to cultivate.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I think my hon. friend
has not had much experience with this class of land.


Malcolm McLean: I am actually
engaged in clearing land where the poplar timber runs up to two feet in thickness at the stump and stands rather thick, and it is very difficult to get a fire to burn throught it. I have been trying for years to bum up the trunks. If the hon. member for Peace River could tell me where I could get the services of a civil servant to clear my land at a dollar an acre after the stumps are out of the ground, I would thank him very much for the information.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: I wish to put two letters on Hansard. One is dated February 25, 1927, and is to Mr. Peters, surveyor general, who was called before the committee last year. I wrote his as follows:
Dear Sir,
Some years ago your department undertook to test out the feasibility of clearing land by fire. I have been urging on the minister occasionally the desirability of doing a little more at this business as we have vast areas in the Peace river country that can be cleared economically by fire without doing any damage. I would like to obtain the following information:
1.	What areas or sections were cleared by fire during the progress of the whole experiment?
2.	What was the effect of the experiment in relation to clearing the land?
3.	Was the soil damaged in any way?
4.	What was the cost per acre of clearing the land?
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5.	Was there any difficulty controlling the fire?
6.	In what years was the experiment carried on?
7.	Has the land been settled since it was cleared?
An answer to these questions, will greatly oblige.
This is the reply I received from him:
Dear Mr. Kennedy,
Referring to your letter of February 25th concerning the clearing of land by controlled firing in the Peace river country. Answering your questions under the same numbers, I would say,
1.	Area No. 1, comprising sections 27, 28, 33 and 34, in township 76, range 21, west of the fifth meridian, which is a short distance south of Donnelly on the E. D. & B. C. railway, and area No. 3, comprising about 90,000 acres in the vicinity of Battle River prairie (a map is attached outlining this area).
2.	In areas 1 and 3 good burns were obtained and the experiment was a success.
3.	The firing was done in the spring of the year and the soil was not damaged in any way.
4.	In area No. 1 the area was so small that the cost per acre would not be typical. In area No. 3 the cost was about three cents per acre. It is probable that the cost for each burn might vary from three cents up to fifteen cents per acre according to the facilities for natural fire guards and other conditions of a like nature.
5.	The fires can be controlled, provided the work is done under proper supervision and the necessary precautions are taken.
6.	Area No. 1 was burned in 1919. In 1920 an experiment was tried in burning an area of approximately 25 acres ten to fifteen miles southeast of the town of Peace river, and another party undertook firing operations near the Bad Heart river, northeast of Grande Prairie. Because of adverse weather conditions the work of this season was not a success. Area No. 3 was burned in 1921.
7.	I regret that we have no information as to settlement of the land that has taken place subsequently, but no doubt you can obtain this information readily from another branch of the department.
From this letter it is apparent that the clearing of land by controlled firing was a success. Regardless of the proportion of the clearing done, my information is that it can be carried out by the department very cheaply in comparison with what it would cost an actual settler to do. I do not see how the Minister of Immigration can justify the policy which subsidizes the bringing in of settlers and burning them loose on farms where it costs them $35 an acre to clear land, if this work can be done for 15 or 30 cents or a dollar an acre by controlled firing by the government. Would it not be better to subsidize the clearing of land in this way than to bring out settlers to waste their lives cutting down bush? The hon. member challenged the success of this operation, but territory was cleared by fire one hundred, miles north of the Peace river, and to-day settlers are going back there
fMr. Kennedy.]
rather than settle half that distance from the railway. That seems to me to be a practical answer to his light manner of dealing with the whole question, waving it aside as being something of no value.


Malcolm McLean: It is possible
that settlers will go further back to land burnt over some years ago; but when the Department of the Interior is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight fires, I am surprised that the hon. member for Peace River should ask him to set out fires in woods which in a comparatively short time may become valuable. The fact remains that the gentleman who gave evidence before the committee last year and said it cost 15 cents an acre to clear land by firing, still maintains that the farmer must at his own expense gather up the trunks and stumps and bum them. Scores of members from the eastern provinces and the western know that there is a great deal better way of clearing land than by firing. I asked the hon. member as to the size of the wood in this case, but he did not tell me. I asked the witness last year, and he said it was quite large timber. Large green stumps will not bum if the fire passes over them quickly. If they are burned again and again it is easier for the settlers to clear the land.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: The hon. member persists in handing out information which may apply to his own district,-


Malcolm McLean: It applies to any heavily timbered district.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: -but when he says we are advocating lighting fires, while the department is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting fires, I want to tell him that the problem here is between controlled fires and fires not controlled. If the firing is done intelligently under the control of the departmental officials the soil will not be damaged and the fire will not destroy good timber. Further, there will not be the temptation for settlers to start fires and thereby destroy indiscriminately poor timber and good timber. It seems to me that the policy is a^good one from whatever angle it may be studied. It has been argued by some officials, and even by the minister and the hon. member for Melfort, that firing will destroy the soil. Now, in 1023 I know a certain area was fired in the West-lock district. Two years afterwards in that very area there were splendid crops yielding a hundred bushels to the acre on that burnt land. So the statement that the soil is destroyed is not borne out by my experience, and I have watched a lot of firing in the Peace River country. If fire is properly

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controlled it will do effective work and will not damage the soil or affect adversely the general interests of the country. On the other hand it will enable settlers to establish themselves on the land much sooner and to some extent obviate the transportation difficulties we have experienced in connection with railways and new roads throughout the province of Alberta in the last five, six or ten years.


George Gibson Coote: As regards engraving, lithographing, and so forth, is this done in the printing bureau?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Does the minister intend to go further with this policy, or is he going to abandon it?


Charles A. Stewart: I have no
appropriation for this purpose this year.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I wish to discuss one
item, that of salaries. A question was put on the order paper a few days ago with regard to Mr. Gerhard Ens, employed in the Prince Albert land office. He is now in charge of the Mennonite settlement. What is he doing? He is electioneering for the Saskatchewan government and the election is not far off. He has been engaged for some three months.


Charles A. Stewart: I did not
know he was employed.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The answer came the
other day; I have it under my hand. He is a temporary employee.


Charles A. Stewart: A homestead inspector?


Richard Bedford Bennett: No, he is in charge of
the Mennonite settlement.


Charles A. Stewart: I know the man but I did not know he was attached to our department.


Richard Bedford Bennett: The minister can give
me the information later. Now, there is another matter to which I wish to direct attention. The minister will recall that two years ago the hon. member for Vancouver Centre raised a question with respect to alienation of water powers in the Rocky mountains park. It was felt that under the circumstances, without the consent of parliament, these water powers should not be alienated. The attitude taken by this government in recent years has been that they are really trustees for the western provinces, having regard to the fact that the resources are to be turned over to those provinces at no
distant date. There is pending an application in connection with the water power in Manitoba, and I do suggest to the minister, having regard to the fact that this parliament -not the minister or the government but parliament itself-is the trustee for the western provinces, to whom these resources will at no distant date be turned over, that the government should decline to part with any of these power sites, which are of inestimable value to the people of the west, until such time at least as parliament-not, I repeat, the ministry-has passed upon the transaction. I look upon this as an entirely different matter from water powers entrusted to the government for administration. These water powers, whatever else may be said, are now merely held in trust for people residing at a distance from us; and inasmuch as the legislature of Manitoba, for example, is not in session, it does occur to me that before any action is taken the approval of this parliament should be given. I cannot think that this is a matter for executive action alone. I cannot think that it is fair or just or right that this ministry or any ministiy at this moment should deal wth the matter in this way. The responsibility will always be laid at the door of this parliament in years to come; when the situation becomes acute and difficulties arise it will be said that we were responsible for the action taken.
I know the minister has taken a strong view with respect to some matters in my own province, and in view of the facts that have been brought to my attention I suggest that he give the house an assurance that no water powers in western Canada will be alienated without the approval of parliament; because no other action will meet the situation adequately at this time. If the legislatures of the provinces desire to alienate these powers when they receive them, well and good, that is a matter with respect to which they can formulate policies. But in view of the present condition, in view of the negotiations that are taking place, the fact that in one province an agreement was actually signed, while in another province proposals have been made which have been stated to be acceptable-in view of these circumstances, I submit that we should not part with these very valuable power sites, with all that is involved for the future population of the western provinces. We should not part with these powers without the consent of parliament. And that consent probably could not be given unless the legislatures of the provinces affected were content; because there
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is a point at which executive action, taken by a government which in one sense has no responsibility while in another sense it has considerable, is not the method which in my opinion was contemplated when the statute was framed. It was contemplated then that we should treat these matters as part of the assets of the Dominion; now we are content to regard them as assets in our hands as trustees. I make that suggestion to the minister in view of the position he took some years ago with respect to another matter Rather than move a motion on going into supply, which would involve the necessity of a vote being taken, I bring the matter to his attention now in order that he may consider it before he finally disposes of this item.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
quite take the view expressed by my hon. friend with respect to trusteeship in connection with these natural resources. The natural resources are the property of the federal government; that cannot be denied. I think my hon. friend will admit that at once. If parliament in its wisdom decides to turn the natural resources back to the provinces, then that is the business of parliament. But while the resources are under the control of the federal government they are under the administration and control of the federal authorities. There is some difference between the situation which my hon. friend has stated and the position I took on this matter a year or two ago. The matter was raised by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre, but it had reference to the alienation of water powers within the parks. The suggestion- at that time was that the parks and all that appertains thereto, inasmuch as they were recreational grounds not only for tihe localities in which they were located, but for the whole of Canada, should not be alienated but be put under the control of parliament. I heartily agreed with that suggestion. So far as Banff and the Spray lakes scheme are concerned, we have been resurveying the park with a view to excluding from the park area all the valuable minerals now known to exist within the park boundaries. The park boundaries will be curtailed to some extent and most of the coal areas will now be outside their limits and in the Rocky mountain forest reserve. The suggestion was made to exclude the Spray lakes. Let me say this with respect to the Spray lakes. We must have a dependable flow into the Spray river, particularly during the tourist season; and the engineer of the Calgary Power Company, Mr. Gahertv informed

me in my office not long ago that if we were to take for that purpose more than 150 cubic second feet during three months even, in the tourist season, they were not at all interested in that development. I am glad to get that admission. We shall need in the neighbourhood of 350 to 400 cubic second feet to preserve the scenic qualities of the river, to have sufficient water for fire protection, and for the purposes necessary for the maintenance of the park and the preservation of its beauty. But when my hon. friend separates the water powers from the other natural resources-


Richard Bedford Bennett: Oh, no; they are the
same thing.


Charles A. Stewart: I am willing to admit that they are valuable; so much so that I am exercising extreme caution in their administration. I think my hon. friend will give me credit for that, because we have had innumerable difficulties on the Winnipeg river where the Seven Sisters falls are located, and to date, I think, the disposition of these water powers has met with universal satisfaction. Now I understand my hon. friend to say that if I give a promise that no disposition of any water power will be made until it is placed under the control of-


Richard Bedford Bennett: No.


Charles A. Stewart: What did
my hon. friend say?


Richard Bedford Bennett: I said we should not part with any water powers without the approval of this parliament.


Charles A. Stewart: That would mean that a private bill would be introduced?


Richard Bedford Bennett: Or approval of a contract given by resolution.


Charles A. Stewart: I would desire some time to give consideration to that matter. I quite appreciate the protection given a minister in securing the consent of parliament to any question which involves such an important decision as that of the disposal of 300,000 horse power, but I do say that Manitoba has been the storm centre ever since I came to this government and was honoured with the control of the Department of the Interior; first over the Norman dam, later over the disposition of the pulpwood berth where the mill is now erected and the disposition of the water power, and now a very grave difference of opinion exists with respect to the disposition of the Seven Sisters

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falls. I may assure my hon. friend that until that difference of opinion is settled I am not going to issue any license for that water power. I think I may assure my hon. friend of that.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am sure the committee appreciated the statement made by the minister, but I think he did not entirely grasp my contention with respect to the trusteeship of this parliament. So long as we held the natural resources without having declared as a policy that we proposed to turn them over to the provinces; so long as we did not declare that policy his position was sound, but at the beginning of last session and reiterated again this session we had the policy declared that it is proposed to transfer these resources to the several provinces, and the agreement was actually signed and executed which would turn the resources over to the province of Alberta. Under these circumstances, in view of the statement made by the Prime Minister that it was proposed immediately after prorogation or as soon thereafter as might be reasonable to carry on the negotiations to a completion or until they failed, I submit that we should no longer treat these resources as the property of the crown in the right of the Dominion but as the property of the crown in trust for the crown, in the right of the provinces. That is the point I desire to make, and the last observation made by the minister somewhat supports the view which I was presenting. The position of the parks was not so strong as the case which I now put, for with respect to the parks it was proposed that they should always remain the property of the crown in the right of the Dominion and therefore the Dominion had complete authority to deal with them, having complete authority to deal with them the minister concluded that it was desirable to have the approval of parliament before there was any alienation of any resources within the parks.
My submission is that since we hold these resources, that is, they are the property of the crown in the right of the Dominion, in trust for the crown in the right of the several provinces, we should not as an executive act or as a pure matter of administration part with so valuable a resource as a power site which is of such inestimable value to the people of the country, without the approval of this parliament. In my judgment that would be a proper release to the minister for any action he might take as trustee for the people affected, and would afford an opportunity to the several legislatures to deal with any matter which concerned them until such time
as these resources, notably the power sites, were turned over to the crown in the right of the several provinces concerned.
I trust that I have made myself clear; I did not develop the matter at first because I thought the minister had that position in mind. I quite agree that the minister should not be asked at the moment to state what might be done, but thinking the matter over while I was away last week, rather than propose an amendment to the motion to go into supply for the purpose of discussion I thought I could present the matter in that way when his estimates were under consideration, and I thought he might take some little time to consider what might be desirable in the premises because his statement indicates a very earnest desire on his part to deal with the matter in the sense I have suggested, the sense of the relations and obligations which this parliament bears not only to this generation but, as he says, to the future, having regard to the fact that 300,000 horse power may be affected. The same principle, of course, applies to the White Mud falls. Possibly the minister would leave one item, purely pro forma, in order that it might be spoken to, and he might be good enough to present his views to-morrow or at some later time and thereby possibly prevent any further discussion on the matter.


Charles A. Stewart: May I give
my hon. friend the assurance now that so far as his request is concerned I have no serious objection to offer except this:	Of course I
am always made more or less the storm centre for the settlement of these difficulties, particularly in Manitoba, but I have adopted the principle of consulting with the provincial governments about these matters. Possibly I have carried that principle too far, but I am never forgetful of the fact that I must take the responsibility for final disposition. I am going to say very frankly here and now that notwithstanding the fact that at present the government have adopted a line of action with respect to the Seven Sisters falls I am not in any particular hurry to come to any decision about that matter, largely because of the fact that the members of this house have expressed very decided opinions about the matter as federal members. I am not very much disturbed by the statement that there must be immediate action; I have investigated the matter pretty well and I think there is plenty of time to give ample consideration to this matter before it is decided. In order to settle the question, and in order to prevent any delay, I do not see any reason why we
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should not await the action of the city council of Winnipeg and of the provincial government, which must take the responsibility, before a final decision is made here. I think that should satisfy my hon. friend.
_ Mr. KENNEDY:	When the minister was
answering my question with regard to the clearing of land by fire he said something about assisting settlers. What does he mean by that, in what way and to what extent?


Charles A. Stewart: I would
much rather give the matter some consideration before going into it here, because it involves an entirely new policy and the question of whether the Department of the Interior or the federal government should now embark upon a land clearing or burning scheme of this kind. I think that would require some consideration, because my hon. friend is aware of the fact that as soon as this house rises we are going to have a discussion with the provincial governments with respect to the transfer of natural resources. In the case of Alberta that may be delayed, but it is a matter in which, so far as I am concerned, I do not want to make any promises for the future except to say that questions of that kind will receive my sympathetic consideration.
Now may I answer my hon. friend from West Calgary with respect to Mr. Gerhard Ens. I have the question and answer which appeared in Hansard, and my hon. friend will note that at present Mr. Gerhard Ens is employed in the land settlement branch of the Department of Immigration and Colonization, so he is not in my department at all.


Henry Elvins Spencer: The minister said a few
minutes ago that the park had been resurveyed and it is possible that Spray lakes would be outside the park. Could he inform us definitely as to that?


Charles A. Stewart: There is no definite decision about that matter. We have two surveys, one which includes it and one which excludes it from the park, and while we have practically settled the matter of the new boundary with the provincial government it is not final. I would say this-I am now speaking for myself, not for the government or the department; it is my own opinion- if it is not advisable to develop Spray lakes as a reservoir, then it will be inside the park boundary. If it is going to be developed for that purpose then it should be outside, because we do not want developments of that kind within the park boundary.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I suppose the department will not come to a decision until they have consulted the province?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh, no.


John Anderson Fraser: I should like to ask the
minister about, the report he promised me before six o'clock.


Charles A. Stewart: I shall be
glad to give my hon. friend the complete report, and that will explain the whole situation. I must confess that I forgot about it; the controller remembered to get the information but did not get the report. I can get it for my hon. friend to-morrow and will deliver it at eleven o'clock.


John Anderson Fraser: I will have the opportunity of making any observations on it later?


Charles A. Stewart: Absolutely.


Mr. GARDINER:: I notice the first item
shows a considerable increase in the amount for salaries. Will the minister explain the increase?


Charles A. Stewart: The general improvement in conditions throughout the west and the increased demand for land for homestead purposes have caused an increased expenditure. The amount required to cover the statutory increases was $11,000; the amount required for reorganization and reclassification of the western and eastern services is $29,000; and $25,000 was required to cover a shortage in the estimates of 1927-28. A supplementary estimate should have been voted for that fiscal year but it was not done.


Robert Gardiner: There is another increase in the item regarding the protection of timber; could we have that explained?


Charles A. Stewart: We have
an increase of $6,000 for publicity work; an increase of $12,000 for the research services; $15,000 for Canadian forest week, this year; and $14,000 for the forestry service. Then it was found necessary to move a portion of the forest products laboratories from Montreal. As my hon. friend knows, the pulp and paper association have put about $300,000 into the erection of a new laboratory at McGill university for research work in connection with pulp and paper, and we have left that division of the forestry service in that new buildinc. They were not prepared to erect buildingc for the rest of the organization formerly in Montreal, such as the wood testing plant, and we have moved them to Ottawa. In the supplementary estimates I am asking for an

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amount to cover the purchase of new machinery needed in this connection; $23,000 additional is required for this purpose. In Vancouver we have an addition of $3,500 to cover tree planting. I would say to the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Millar) that we have a constant drive on us to extend this service, and I am asking for more money for it. Then we are asking for the following additions in connection with the forest reserves and fire ranger work; for Manitoba, $12,300; for Saskatchewan, $16,000; Alberta, $25,000 and British Columbia, $34,000. May I say in passing that this is one of our most important services and we could spend a good deal more money to advantage than we are asking for here.


Robert Gardiner: There is just one other item I should like some information on, and that is the one in connection with the expenditures for the national parks.


Charles A. Stewart: The increase of 8110,000 comes about very largely in connection with Prince Albert park. My hon. friend will remember that we acquired this a year ago. We voted $25,000 for a preliminary investigation to find a location for the administration building, and the major portion of this increase will be spent on building a road through the park to the lake where these buildings will be located.


Milton Neil Campbell: Will the minister explain the nature of the securities held by the department in connection with the seed grain liens?


Charles A. Stewart: In some
cases it is very questionable, and in other cases we have first mortgages. My hon. friend will remember in the issue of 1915, which was a large issue, the seed grain liens took priority over all claims. Later on that was abandoned, and these did not rank first. We will probably have some losses, but adjustments are going on now in both provinces.


Milton Neil Campbell: Are the liens placed
only against the land for which the seed was furnished, or can you place these liens against any real estate held by the farmer?


Charles A. Stewart: As in any
other ordinary debt, first there is the land, and secondly, there is the security of the individual himself. Naturally, if he has any property, we can proceed against him in the regular way. There is no doubt about that.


Milton Neil Campbell: That would be only an ordinary debt. You would have to sue in the ordinary provincial court. I have in mind
a case that perhaps the minister will recall where a lien was placed against property in a city. I wondered if the legislation at present in existence gives the department power to place a lien against property held in a city by the same man who secured the advance in the first place.


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend knows full well that all debts of this character are oollectiole from the individual and if he does not pay, if one piece of property is so encumbered that nothing can be recovered, naturally you can proceed against any property he might have.


Milton Neil Campbell: The minister misapprehends my question. That is a case of suing a man in the courts and getting a judgment which would automatically be registered against any property he had in the particular judicial district. But in the case to which I refer the lien was registered against property held in a city. It was not a case of suing and getting a judgment against the man but the actual lien was registered against city property. Does the legislation on the statute book at the present time empower the department to place seed grain liens against property in cities?


Charles A. Stewart: My controller tells me that the 1915 liens did extend to all property, but later when we did not have the primary security on the land itself, then I would take action against the individual if I thought I could recover.


Robert Gardiner: I think there is a
question that the minister ought to look into. I understand that after the War-time Elections Act expired, it was not possible for the department to register liens against city property notwithstanding the fact that those liens had already been registered against farm property. Many registrations have been made since that time and my understanding of the situation is that they are illegal. It is quite true that the department can take action through the courts for the recovery of this money, but at present there are many registrations in effect and the minister should take the matter into consideration with a view to removing liens that have been put on illegally.


Charles A. Stewart: In Alberta
the whole matter is in the hands of the commission.


Robert Gardiner: What progress has been made towards solving that particular problem in Alberta?
3856	*
Supply-Interior


Charles A. Stewart: A number of settlements are coming in. There was some little misunderstanding that it took some time to straighten out between the commissioners, but we have got that adjusted and they are now going ahead. The evidence of that is that we are having settlements come in at the rate of two or three a week now.


John Evans: I have in mind the case of
a returned soldier in Saskatoon who secured seed and feed as far back as 1915. He signed a quit claim deed to the farm on the understanding that the mortgagee was taking over the whole of the indebtedness regarding seed and feed. Later on, although he did not have any property until six years after that, he found when he was going to get his title to his city property that the lien was registered against that. This is one of the most sordid tales of bulldozing and bullying on the part of a member of parliament using his official position as a member of parliament to secure the payment of a sum of money from a returned man which he did not owe. I am here accusing the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Young) of doing this and trying to bluff this man into paying a sum of money which he was clear of for more than six years. I think it should be made plain that men in that position, returned soldiers who have since got clear of their debt, who had gone to the war and served their country overseas, should not be bulldozed, when they come back, into paying something that they do not owe. I have nothing more to say.


Charles A. Stewart: I have full
knowledge of the case referred to by my hon. friend. He has brought it to my attention and we are making a full investigation in respect to it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Scientific institutions-expenses connected with the Dominion observatory at Ottawa, $75,405.
Robert James Manion: Why the increase?
Mr. iSTEWART (Edmonton):	This is
largely to provide for reorganization.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Government of the Yukon territory-grant for maintenance and construction of roads- further amount required, $3,000.
Charles A. Stewart: This is an amount we require to spend in the Yukon. Owing to the development of a new mine there we had not sufficient funds to meet the

requirements to get the machinery into the mine from the main road through the Yukon. We require $3,000 to complete the construction of that piece of road.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Additional amount required for protection of timber etc., to pay for machinery for the Forest Products Laboratories, Ottawa, ordered but not delivered in fiscal year 1927-28; to cover expenses of the forest service delegation to the British Empire Forestry Conference in Australia and New Zealand, $18,520.
To provide for the expenses incurred under the Lake of the Woods Control Board Act, 1921, and under the agreement between the Dominion. Ontario and Manitoba, confirmed by the Lac Seul Conservation Act, 1928 for the construction of a dam at the outlet of Lac Seul and its operation by the Lake of the Woods Control Board and for the remuneration at the rate of $1,000 each per annum, of Messrs. J. T. Johnston and K. M. Cameron, Dominion members of such board, the^ moneys expended to be reimbursed to the Dominion by the licensees of developed power sites on the Winnipeg river in Manitoba, $500,000.
Compassionate allowance to S. Knutson in connection with the death of his son at Jasper Park, $500.
To provide for the expenses connected with Canadian national parks, historic sites, care of indigents in the parks, including purchase of land at Fort Louisburg, etc.-further amount required, $32,000.
To satisfy the claim of C. B. Jameson for refund of amounts paid by him on purchase price of coal mining rights and for taxes, $3,239.91.
To cover the Dominion government's share of freight charges in connection with the removal of settlers from the drought stricken areas to other districts, $1,500.
To provide for the construction of the Golden-Revelstoke highway, $150,000.
To provide for expenses connected with the supervisory mining engineer's office due chiefly to the recent mining activities in northern Manitoba and northern Saskatchewan, $10,000.
To pay damages and costs pursuant to the judgment of the Hon. Mr. Justice MacLean, President of the Exchequer Court, in the action brought by the estate of the late E. H. Maunsell, Henry F. Maunsell and Maunsell Brothers against the crown, $40,000.-Total, $755,759.91.
Robert Gardiner: Will the minister explain the item of $500,000?


Charles A. Stewart: This is the amount required to make provision for the construction of the dam for which we passed legislation at the present session, that is the Lac Seul dam. It is a storage dam to create a greater supply of water for the Winnipeg river. That amount will be refunded.


Robert Gardiner: Will this complete the work?

Supply-Interior-Dominion Lands


Charles A. Stewart: The Ontario government are putting in $200,000. That is the estimate. I think it will complete the work.


Robert Gardiner: As regards the construction of the Golden-Revelstoke highway, is this a new piece of construction?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, this is a piece of construction that is not yet definitely settled, but I think I can say to the committee that there will not be any doubt that complete arrangements will be made with the provincial government. In brief it was estimated that to cross the Glacier park would cost the department in the neighbourhood of $750,000. Part of it would be on the old abandoned roadbed of the Canadian Pacific where all those snow sheds are built and it is rather a dangerous piece of road. That is the information we got from our engineering department. It will be a link in the national highway across southern Canada, and to that extent the federal government have responsibilities in connection with the construction of the road, as we had with the road through Banff national park. So the arrangement in brief now is that the road shall be built around the Big Bend. It increases the mileage by ninety miles, but I understand from the provincial authorities that it will serve some rather valuable territory, and we shall have a safe road. The proposal is that we contribute up to $750,000 in the construction of this highway, and we will not attempt to build any highway through Glacier park at all. I am asking $150,000 to carry out the obligation of this year's construction, if the arrangement is consummated.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: What is this item of $40,000 in the action brought by Maunsell Brothers against the crown?


Charles A. Stewart: I am sorry the leader of the opposition is not in the house. This is a case of many years standing. It was a case in which a lease held by Maunsell Brothers, of Macleod, was cancelled by the Hon. Erank Oliver, I think in 1909. Apparently the cancellation did not go into effect for some time, but very serious losses were involved.


Hugh Guthrie: Was the action tried and settled?


Charles A. Stewart: The case was tried in the exchequer court, and while judgment was given against the government, it was for unstated damages. This is an arrangement for the settlement of the case.


Hugh Guthrie: An arrangement made outside of the court altogether?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes. The
court did not fix the damages.


Hugh Guthrie: Reading the item, one
would think we were paying a judgment, but as a matter of fact we are making a settlement.


Charles A. Stewart: I think that is a complete statement of the case,


Mr. YOUNG (Saskatoon):: During the few moments I was out of the chamber I understand that the hon. member for Rosetown made some sort of charge against me. I wonder if he will be good enough to repeat it.


John Frederick Johnston: Order. We are now discussing item 501.


Mr. ESLING:: May I ask the minister-


John Evans: I can repeat it, if necessary-


John Frederick Johnston: Order. The hon. member for West Kootenay has the floor.


William Kemble Esling: Have arrangements been
made that the road shall not go through the park? Has it been definitely determined that this Revelstoke road, or what is known as the east road, is not to be constructed through the park?


Charles A. Stewart: That is the decision.


William Kemble Esling: Is it the intention to build along the Columbia river to the Canoe river, which is at the top of Big Bend, and then into Jasper Park, or is this merely a contribution towards the construction of the Big Bend road?


Charles A. Stewart: The Big Bend road will be part of the international highway that will pass from Golden on to Jasper Park and on to Calgary. This is the last link, I believe, in the construction.


William Kemble Esling: Is this part of the scheme to build from Golden to Jasper Park by way of the Big Bend?


Charles A. Stewart: I beg my
hon. friend's pardon. I understood him to ask, was it the intention to extend from the Big Bend road to Jasper. No decision has been arrived at as to that.


William Kemble Esling: This is part of that construction, is it not?

Supply-Railways-C .N.R.


Charles A. Stewart: This is to
complete the highway to Vancouver around by Big Bend. Then there have been suggestions that we might very well build from Elbow to Jasper Park.


William Kemble Esling: To put it in another way, I assume that this vote represents what the government would ordinarily expend in the construction of the road if it went east from Revelstoke through the Glacier national park.


Charles A. Stewart: That is the statement I made to the committee a moment ago, and the estimate for that is $750,-O00.


William Kemble Esling: Is it the intention of the
government to continue this road to Jasper Park? That is what the people there are very much interested in.


Charles A. Stewart: There has
been no decision at all with respect to that.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Is the matter under consideration?


Charles A. Stewart: It might be, but we have no surveys to indicate whether it is possible or not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Loans to Canadian National Railway Company
Amount not exceeding $39,000,000 to meet expenditures made or indebtedness incurred (where amounts available from net operating income or investments may be insufficient) by or on behalf of the Canadian National Railway Company, herein called "the company," or any company specified or referred to in chapter 172 of the revised statutes of Canada, 1927, and chapter 13 of the statutes of 1920 or now or hereafter comprised in the Canadian National Railways or by the company in respect of any railways, properties and works entrusted to it from time to time under the provisions of section 19 of chapter 172 of the revised statutes of Canada, 1927, or any one or more of such companies, on any or all of the following accounts, such expenditures or indebtedness being herein called authorized expenditures:
(a)	Interest on securities, notes and other obligations; rentals for lease of lines;
(b)	Equipment principal payments; sinking funds; miscellaneous maturing or matured notes and other obligations secured or unsecured; _
(c)	Operating income deficit, whenever incurred or ascertained;
(d)	construction and betterments, including co-ordinations.; acquisition of real or personal property.
The amount herein authorized may be applied from time to time to meet authorized expenditures, in the discretion of the governor in council:	_
(a)	In respect of railways, properties and works entrusted to the company as aforesaid;

(b)	In respect of railways, properties and works not so entrusted by way of loans in cash, or by way of guarantee, or partly one way and partly the other, subject, however, as follows:
If by way of loans from His Majesty, the amount or amounts advanced to any one or more of the said companies shall be repayable on demand, with interest payable half-yearly at the rate fixed from time to time by the governor in council, secured if and when directed by the governor in council by mortgage or mortgages upon such properties, in such form and containing such terms and conditions, not inconsistent herewith, as the governor in council may approve.
If by way of loans from persons other than His Majesty (without the guarantee^ of His Majesty) the amounts, terms and conditions of such loans shall be such as the governor in council may from time to time approve.
If by way of guarantee, any such guarantee may be either a general guarantee covering the total amount of the issue, or by a separate guarantee endorsed on each obligation, and may be of the principal, interest and sinking funds (if any) of the notes, obligations or securities of one or more of the said companies specified by the governor in council, which notes, obligations or securities the companies so_ specified are hereby authorized to make and issue, _ and such guarantee may be signed by the Minister of Finance, or such other person as the governor in council may authorize, on behalf of His Majesty, in such form and on such terms and conditions as the governor in council may determine to be appropriate and applicable thereto. Any guarantee so signed shall be conclusive evidence for all purposes that the provisions of this enactment have been complied with.
Should temporary loans be made or negotiated before the lapse of this appropriation either from His Majesty or other persons, guaranteed notes, obligations or securities may subsequently be issued under the provisions of the preceding paragraph of this enactment to renew, refund or adjust such loans, or any part thereof.	_
Each company herein mentioned or referred to is hereby authorized to aid and assist in any manner any other or others of the said companies, and, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, may for its own requirements and also for the requirements of any or all of such other companies from time to time:
(a)	Issue notes, obligations or other securities, joint or several, at discretion, for the purpose of any guarantee made or to be made under the provisions of this enactment;
(b)	Apply the proceeds of any such guaranteed issue, or the amount of loans received, by virtue of this enactment, in meeting authorized expenditures on its own account or on account of any or all of such other companies;
(c)	Make advances for the purpose of meeting authorized expenditures to any or all of such other companies, upon or without any security, at discretion.
No purchaser of such guaranteed notes, securities or obligations shall be under any obligation to inquire into the application of the proceeds of any guaranteed issue, $39,000,000.
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals): This is tlhe first item of the estimates which have been exam-

Supply-Railways-C.N.R.
ined by the select standing committee on railways and shipping. Every member of the house has been supplied, I believe, with copies of the evidence taken before that committee, the questions dealt with, and the information given by the officers of the Canadian National Railways. The same procedure has been followed in this regard as in former years, and I am now presenting the estimate for formal adoption by the committee of the whole house.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Might I ask the minister if he would at this time make a complete statement of the hotel situation in Halifax? I was really expecting the hon. member for Halifax to be here, but he left the dhamber just a few moments ago, not knowing that this item was coming up. As I understand the situation, the facts are these, that one hotel was projected, but later as the matter progressed some differences arose, and two hotels are now projected. 'One has been erected by a local company in conjunction with the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and is now, I think, about completed. Then the Canadian National have provided for the construction of another hotel down near the station, but beyond some foundation work I do not think any very great progress has been made. Is it the intention of the Canadian National to erect this hotel, or to join the other concern in one large hotel for the city?


Charles Avery Dunning: With regard to the Halifax hotel matter, included in the estimates submitted by the management of the railway for approval by the government, and! consequent submission to parliament, is an amount of $1,250,000 for a combined station and hotel in Halifax for the Canadian National Railways. The subject was discussed before the select standing committee on railways and shipping, and the evidence of Sir Henry Thornton in regard thereto will be found in the printed record of the proceedings commencing at page 148. Briefly, so far as the government is concerned, the position is that the Canadian National management and directors, after considering the whole situation with respect to Canadian National interests in Halifax, placed this sum in their own budget -for submission to the government. The government, after giving consideration to the views of the management, decided to approve and to place the matter before the house, where it is at the present time.
56103-244i


Mr. ROWE:: Has the minister taken into consideration the very great loss of life at level crossings throughout the Dominion, and set aside in his estimates a sum to reduce the hazard?


Charles Avery Dunning: These estimates are for the Canadian National Railways. Earlier in the session I did introduce a bill to amend the Railway Act having particular reference to the grade crossing fund. Probably my hon. friend was not present on that occasion. He will find the discussion in Hansard, and it will give him a complete review of the whole matter.


William Earl Rowe: I realize that it is a matter for the railway board, but I do feel in view of the heavy loss of life, a loss that is always increasing with the ever-increasing vehicular traffic, that the Minister of Railways should be the first to be in a position to suggest to the management of the Canadian National Railways a fixed policy in relation to level crossings.


Charles Avery Dunning: I know my hon. friend
does not intend to be unfair, but I think he will realize that he is if he reads the very full discussion of level crossings on the occasion to which I have referred. The Canadian National Railways, may I say, is in exactly the same position as any other railway with respect to level crossings that is to say, it is completely under the jurisdiction of the Board of Railway Commissioners.


Henry Herbert Stevens: One other question I desire to ask the minister. I understand some tentative arrangement has been made with the province of British Columbia for the purchase and operation of the Pacific Great Eastern Railway and its completion to Prince George. Is there any provision in the Canadian National Railway estimates for that purpose, or out of what fund would the necessary money come? I do not wish the details, but could the minister give us a rough outline of the agreement?


Charles Avery Dunning: The position with regard to the Pacific Great Eastern is exactly the same as that with regard to a number of other railways across Canada in which various provinces are interested in various ways. The matter was discussed at the Dominion-provincial conference, when the Dominion ministers met the provincial ministers. Following that conference the government decided
Supply-Railways-C -V .R.

to ask Sir Henry Thornton to negotiate with the provinces concerned with respect to each of the railway properties, ail of which represent problems of a varied character.


Richard Bedford Bennett: What provinces would be concerned?


Charles Avery Dunning: 
Richard Bedford Bennett: It might be an encouragement.


Charles Avery Dunning: If I particularized too closely.


George Reginald Geary: The third class might be enlarged by including some railways that are being promoted.


Richard Bedford Bennett: Like the Port Burwell.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is always something parliament should bear in mind-as I think my hon. friend will remember I intimated to the railway committee at its first meeting this session-in dealing generally with applications for railway charges. However, not to deviate from the matter to which my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) has referred, Sir Henry Thornton was authorized and has been negotiating with the provinces concerned. As to the exact state of the negotiations with British Columbia, I am not advised, but I can state positively that the Canadian National management is not authorized by the government to make any settlement. Naturally this would have to be approved by the government, and a transac-

tion of such magnitude would of course have to be submitted to parliament. While I presume it is quite possible that some temporary operating arrangement might be made within the scope of the existing law, it surely is very certain that no arrangement could be consummated with respect to a railway such as the Pacific Great Eastern without submitting it to parliament.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There has been no tentative purchase agreement between the railways and the province of British Columbia?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have no knowledge of anything completed. As a matter of fact no such purchase agreement could be completed without the approval of tlhe government. I believe negotiations are progressing satisfactorily, but beyond that I cannot make any more definite statement.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister cannot say whether it involves the extension from Prince George to the Peace river connection?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am not in a position to answer-not as to that. Sir Henry Thornton was given a free hand to go into these matters from the point of view of the National system as it now is, and having in mind the policy evolved by the government as the Tesult of the Dominion-provincial conference, which was an endeavour to meet the provinces as far as practicable in connection with these transportation problems under which they were labouring.


Henry Herbert Stevens: And whatever arrangement was made would have to be submitted to parliament for ratification and for the passing of the necessary capital funds for the purchase.


Charles Avery Dunning: If it involved the purchase of a railway such as the Pacific Great Eastern there is no question it would have to come to parliament. But I want to qualify that statement: It is always possible for some operating arrangement to be entered into-[DOT] such as that which was entered into at one time in connection with the Edmonton and Dunvegan railway-without the necessity of coming to parliament, because of course no outright purchase is involved in that case. It is always possible that, preliminary to the purchase, if the terms of the purchase are agreed to by the government-recommended by the management and agreed to by the government-some	operating arrangement
might be consummated between the particular railway and the Canadian National. I am not indicating that this will be done, but

Supply-R ail ways-C .N.R.
it is always a possibility. But nothing with respect to the purchase of a property of that kind can be consummated without the authority of parliament. If the authority does not at present exist it must be secured.


Henry Herbert Stevens: There would scarcely be an operating agreement until1 the last forty-five miles had been completed. The Pacific Great Eastern does not touch the Canadian National at the present' time. I believe there are about forty miles to construct.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is not impossible for an operating arrangement to be made with a railway not connected with the parent. But the Pacific Great Eastern, the people of British Columbia say, begins nowhere and ends nowhere. I presume that, as a matter of common sense in its future disposition, whichever organization may ultimately take control of it, it must have a beginning and an end. I do not want to be too definite regarding the negotiations, the nature of which I am not completely informed upon. But I am quite sure that the management of the Canadian National will take into account all the factors to which my hon. friend has reference.
Mr. MiacDONALD (South Cape Breton): I want to make a suggestion to the government in the hope of relieving the situation at Halifax. The situation as it appears to me is this. It is evidently going to cost the country about a million dollars to free Sir Henry Thornton from a position into which he has rather manoeuvred himself or allowed others to manoeuvre him. He is asking for a million dollars to build in Halifax an hotel for which there is absolutely no necessity. There are now three or four fairly good hotels at Halifax sufficient to answer all the requirements there. You can visit Halifax at any time of the year and you will find there hotels not at all crowded. In addition to that we are building a new community hotel which will of course take the cream of the traffic: it will be more than sufficient to accommodate all the tourist traffic for a considerable time to come. There has been an effort in the past year in Nova Scotia to stimulate the tourist traffic. The provincial government is spending a great deal of money, and many towns and cities throughout the province are also contributing to this move. In Cape Breton we have organized a regular tourist association, to which all towns and cities in the island have contributed. It is costing a considerable sum of money. I have here a piece of literature which has been distributed by the Tourist Association of Cape Breton. One great obstacle in the way of
tourist traffic throughout Nova Scotia is the want of good hotels, and for this million dollars for an hotel in Halifax-an hotel which is not needed-at least four or five good hotels could be constructed throughout the province. I have read the statement of President Beatty regarding the offer he makes with apparent generosity; but everyone who knows anything knows that Sir Henry Thornton cannot accept that offer. To do so would be at least a distinct Loss of prestige to him. He has taken a stand on the matter and he must maintain it. In fairness to him I think the alternative proposition should be made. The minister might vote this amount for the construction of hotels in Nova Scotia, and if Sir Henry Thornton then insisted on the hotel in Halifax, I do not think there is anything we could say about it. But it might commend itself to his good judgment to adopt the suggestion made by all the tourist associations throughout the province, and instead of building one hotel in Halifax he might build four or five throughout the province.
I have here a pamphlet issued by the Cape Breton Tourist Association, a very creditable publication entailing considerable expense, in which are set forth all the beauties of the island of Cape Breton. It is unnecessary to say that the island of Cape Breton is by far the most beautiful portion of all Canada. In support of that statement I might read a number of selections from this book but I will content myself with quoting just one from a very well known author, Charles Dudley Warner, whose writings are no doubt familiar to hon. members. Charles Dudley Warner visited the island of Cape Breton some thirty and forty years ago, long before the present transportation facilities were afforded, and he writes:
One seeing Baddeck would not like to be detained a prisoner in Eden. . . winding around the base of a wooded range, and crossing its point, we came upon a sight that took all the sleep out of us. This was the famous Bras d'Or . . . The scene was enchanting... It was enough to sit on deck forward of the wheel-house, and absorb, by all the sense, the delicious day. With such wonder perpetual and such scenery always present, sin in this world would soon become an impossibility The most electric American, heir of all the nervous diseases of all the ages, could not but find peace in this scene of tranquil beauty, and sail on into a great and deepening contentment. Would the voyage could last for an age, with the same sparkling, but tranquil, sea, and the same environment of hills, near and remote. The hills approached and fell away in lines of undulating grace, draped with tender colour -which helped to carry the imagination beyond the earth.
I would not suggest in all seriousness that there is no such thing as sin in the island

Supply-Railways-C.N.R.
of Cape Breton, and possibly to do so would not be to offer the strongest inducement I could to some members of the house to visit the island. Seriously, however, I want to leave this suggestion with the minister, and I hope to receive the assistance of the Minister of National Defence, because I think it will commend itself to his good judgment. Instead of making this apply only to the city of Halifax it should apply to the province of Nova Beotia, so that if the president of the Canadian National Railways can see his way clear to do so he may confer a favour upon that province which will not be forgotten.


Mr. MARCIL:: I am glad to know that
the Minister of Railways has included the Gaspe railway in the list of railways which are now attracting the attention of the management of the Canadian National Railways. Away back in 1915 this house passed a branch lines bill to cover cases such as that of the Gaspe railway, authorizing the government to take over all branch lines over 200 miles in length connecting with the government lines of that day. The war prevented that being done in many cases, but that bill remains today and I am sure the people of Bonaven-ture and Gaspe will be glad to know that at least there is some ray of hope of settling this long-standing question. Sir Charles Tup-per asked this parliament to construct this railway as a branch line of the Intercolonial; the first ten miles were built as a branch line but unfortunately the policy was changed and the line was handed over to a private Company. Since then it has had a very chequered career. I am not going into the history of the matter except to say that when we mention maritime railways we should include the Gaspe railway because it serves the maritime part of the province of Quebec and is mentioned among those roads which are to be indemnified under the 20 per cent arrangement. Without any further remarks at this time I would ask the minister if he is in a position to tell us exactly how far these negotiations have progressed and whether there is any hope of a final settlement soon, always remembering that there is existing legislation to cover the case of the Gaspe railway under which the government may take over all branch fines 200 miles in length connecting with the Canadian National Railways.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sorry I cannot be
more definite with respect to the Gaspe railway than I was in answering my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre with regard to the Pacific Great Eastern railway. The matter is
[Mr. F M'W'.DonaJd.l
being looked into by the management, and beyond that I cannot go at present.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I venture to suggest to
the minister that first of all these matters should be dealt with by a bill. I have long felt that estimates of this kind should be dealt with as we deal with the appropriations for the commission in Ottawa and for the harbours of Halifax and Vancouver. These are advances made by the state to the railways;
I think a separate bill should be introduced and that, as far as possible, details in sums should be mentioned. I apprehend that a supply bill will be founded on these estimates; am I right in assuming that this will be a separate supply bill?


Charles Avery Dunning: No, this is merely in
addition to the general estimates.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I submit that that is
not the proper way in which the House of Commons should deal with this matter, and for that Statement I will give my reasons shortly. The statute provides that the Minister of Railways represents the shareholders of this enterprise; the directors are appointed by the government and have the powers which appertain to statutory directors. They have the powers of directors under the Railway Act. The Canadian National Railways may be considered for that purpose to be a corporation, and the directors have control of that corporation in the same manner and to the same extent that directors have control of any private corporation. However, in every private corporation there are obligations placed upon the shareholders. These are statutory obligations; they arise under the act incorporating the company on the one hand, and under the general Railway Act on the other. The act of incorporation provides a limitation upon the powers of the directors and states clearly where the powers of the shareholders begin; that is, there are certain matters which may not be disposed of by the directors without reference to the shareholders, and the general Railway Act also provides that while the powers of the directors are very large in many instances, the directors must also refer matters of importance to the shareholders. These provisions apply to this undertaking. It is true that the Canadian National railways are owned by the people of Canada.


Charles Avery Dunning: The Canadian National
Railway Act specifically sets that out.


Richard Bedford Bennett: I am coming to that.
They apply except to the extent that they

Immigration-Mr. Kay
may be excepted by the statute under which the corporation comes into existence. Now I submit that the proper form in which these estimates should be introduced would be by a separate bill, because in no sense can this be said to be supply. This is not supply; it is not money granted to His Majesty, and should not be treated in that way. It will be observed that we are treating these estimates as supply, and I submit to the ministei that by	no	stretch of	the imagination	can	hetreat these advances made to the corporation to which I have referred as supply granted to	His	Majesty.	The very term	"supplygranted	to His Majesty" involves	and	implies that we are raising by taxation sums of money to enable His Majesty's government to be maintained and to function. If my premise is correct this is a corporation; the government have a board of directors, subject to	the	provisions	of that general	act	and
with the additional provisions to which I have referred in the act incorporating the enterprise, and to which I will not refer now. However, if my premise be correct and I think the minister must admit, from his observations, that it is-we should not be treating these matters as supply. As I say, we should treat them as we treated the grants made to the harbours of Quebec, St. John and Halifax. They constitute an appropriation made out of the public revenues for specific purposes not related to supply, and they are improperly dealt with in the estimates.
The minister will say that heretofore these matters have been dealt with in this way. I have had occasion to look into this matter with some care since last year, and the conclusion at which I have arrived is embodied in the observations I have just made. I cannot help thinking that it must commend itself to the good judgment of the Minister of Railways that we should deal with these questions as matters of legislation which leaves the house much more free to deal with the situation than otherwise would be the case.
Now let me go a step further. If we are to deal with these matters as I have indicated, and going on the assumption that the management of the railway company, that is the directors, have recommended to the shareholders that they as shareholders appropriate sums necessary to maintain, develop and extend the property where necessary and to preserve it in its entirety, these items then represent recommendations made by the directors to the shareholders. Under the statute the Minister of Railways is the shareholder representing the people of Canada; the members of this house are really the shareholders in fact, because the minister derives his power from them, and I submit that it is still clearer than ever that this is not supply in any sense in which that term can be properly used.
Progress reported.


[Stage Direction]
At eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.
Thursday, June 7, 1928