1927-02-08

VACANCIES

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received communications from several members notifying me that the following vacancies had occurred in the representation, viz:
Of John Carey Douglas, member for the electoral district of Antigonish'-Guysborough, by decease;
Of John Warwick King, member for the electoral district of North Huron, by decease.
I have accordingly issued my several warrants to the Chief Electoral Officer to make out new writs of election for the said electoral districts, respectively.



NEW MEMBER

Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to
inform the House that the Clerk of the House has received from the Chief Electoral Officer a certificate of the election and return of William Duff, Esquire, for the electoral district of Antigonish-Guysborough.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 41, to incorporate Columbia Life Assurance Company.-Mr. Stevens.
Bill No. 42, respecting certain patents owned by Albert P. Frigon.-Mr. Mercier (St. Henri).
Bill No. 43, respecting the Ottawa Electric Company.-Mr. Chevrier.
Bill No. 44, respecting the Ottawa Gas Company-Mr. Chevrier.

Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing this House:-
That the Honourable the Speaker, the Honourable Messieurs Green, Hardy, Ross (Middleton), Sharpe, Taylor and Watson, have been appointed a committee to assist the Honourable the Speaker in the direction of the restaurant of parliament, so far as the interests of the Senate are concerned, and to act on behalf of the Senate as members of a joint committee of both Houses on said restaurant.
Also,-A message informing this House that the Honourable the Speaker, the Honourable Messieurs Aylesworth, Sir Allen, Beaubien, Cha-pais, Gillis, Gordon, Griesbach, Hardy, Hatfield, Laird, Lewis. McDougald, McLennan, Poirier, Taylor, Turriff and Webster (Brockville), have been appointed a committee to assist the Honourable the Speaker in the direction of the Library of Parliament, so far as the interests of the Senate are concerned, and to act on behalf of the Senate as members of a joint committee of both Houses on the said library.
And also,-A message informing this House that the Honourable Messieurs Aylesworth, Sir Allen, Buchanan, Chapais, Dessaulles, Donnelly, Farrell, Green, Legris, Lewis, McDonald, McLean, McLennan, Murphy, Pardee, Pope, Robertson, Sharpe, Taylor, Todd, White (Inkerman) and White (Pembroke), have been appointed a committee to superintend the printing of the Senate during the present session, and to act on behalf of the Senate as members of a joint committee of both Houses on the subject of the printing of parliament.



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: That on Wednesday the 9th instant and subsequent Wednesdays to the end of the session the House shall meet at three o'clock in the afternoon.
Copyright Act


Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Leader of the Opposition):: It may have slipped my memory but I do not remember any notice having been given of this motion. It has come on me very unexpectedly.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Perhaps my
hon. friend attaches more importance to the motion than he will if I explain it. Under the rules the House meets at two o'clock on Wednesday until a motion is carried that it shall meet, as on every day, at three o'clock. The custom has been to change that particular rule at the beginning of each session and meet forthwith at three o'clock instead of at two on Wednesday. This being the case I thought it advisable to put the motion immediately. I have no objection to letting it stand until the close of this sitting if my hon. friend wishes to discuss the matter with hon. gentlemen opposite, but I rather think it is the general wish that the House shall meet at three o'clock on Wednesdays.


Hugh Guthrie: I do not mind agreeing
that we meet at three o'clock to-morrow but I suggest that the Prime Minister allow the motion to stand until we have had an opportunity of discussing it. Meeting at three o clock instead of at two on Wednesdays takes an hour off one of the days allotted to private members. I am not sure whether or not, in consequence of the recess which we have had, private members are now to be deprived of Thursday. If I am right in assuming that they are, then Mondays and Wednesdays are the only private members' days now available, and Thursday becomes a government day. I do not want to curtail the rights of private members who may have motions which they desire to discuss, and I am afraid that such will be the effect if the present motion is carried.


Hewitt Bostock: Rule 40 provides:
Two days' notice shall be given of a motion tor leave to present a bill, resolution or address, tor the appointment of any committee, or for the putting of a question; but this rule shall not apply to bills after their introduction, or to private bills, or to the times of meeting or adjournment of the House.
In view of this rule I must rule the point of order not well taken.


Hon. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Owing to the recess which took up the month of January, private members, I understand, are deprived of Thursday, so that we have now only Mondays and Wednesdays. I think the government should take that fact into consideration. I do not believe the introduction of such a motion so early in the session 
will expedite the business of the House nor will it tend to shorten the session. I would ask the Prime Minister to take into account the fact, which I have pointed out, that owing to the recess, private members will not now have that full opportunity, which otherwise they would have had during an entire month, to discuss questions in which they are interested. I do not think that the motion ought to be pressed at this time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Let me assure my hon. friend at once that I shall see to it that the rights and privileges of private members in this matter shall not suffer in any way by reason of the adoption of this motion. We will take care to see that the extra hour is made good to private members. The only reason for introducing this motion is that it meets with the convenience of all hon. members. When the rule for meeting at two o'clock on Wednesdays was observed it was found very frequently that the attendance when the House met at two o'clock on that day was very slim, most members being apparently unable to break away from the custom of attending at three o'clock.


Hewitt Bostock: Shall the motion stand?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I move, Mr. Speaker, that the motion be amended to read that to-morrow the House shall meet at three o'clock.


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion as amended?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Hewitt Bostock: Carried; the House
meets at three o'clock to-morrow instead of at two o'clock.



THE COPYRIGHT ACT, 1921, AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 45, to amend and make operative certain provisions of the Copyright Act, 1921.
He said: This very bill was exhaustively inquired into and a great deal of evidence was heard by a special committee of parliament 'which sat during the session before last. The terms of the present bill are practically the same as those of the bill which was reported by that special committee, and the measure is being reintroduced now. It consists mainly of minor changes with one exception concerning licensing clauses. In other respects the bill contains no matters of great moment. During the interval between the session before last and the present time- that is to say, during last session-I had occasion as proposer of the bill to confer with

The late Mr. King, M.P.
a number of organizations in different parts of Canada, particularly in Montreal and Toronto, and as a result some of the objectionable features of the original bill were modified. That aspect of the matter will, however, be discussed when the bill is considered in committee of the whole.
Motion agreed bo and bill read the first time.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, when parliament met in December the constituency of North Huron was represented in this House by Mr. John Warwick King, of Bluevale, Huron county, who was first elected to parliament in the general elections of 1921, and who was again returned in the general elections of 1925 and 1926. To-day the. constituency as you have just reminded us, is without representation owing to the death of its member on January 14.
It is fitting, Mr. Speaker, that before the House resumes its duty we should give some expression of the sense of our loss, and of the sympathy which will be felt in all parts of the House with the relatives and friends who have been bereaved by the sudden death of our late member.
At the time of his death Mr. King had just entered upon his seventy-second year. He was born of Scotch parents at Smith's Falls, Ontario. He received his early education at Bluevale public school and at the collegiate institute of St. Catharines and of Collingwood and at the normal school in the city of Ottawa. For seventeen years he was a public school teacher in this province. He gave up teaching to farm in Huron county, and spent the last twenty years of his life as an agriculturist.
In politics Mr. King was originally a Liberal. He joined the Progressive party in the elections of 1921 and was on each occasion returned to parliament as a member of that party. In this House, while loyal to the party to which he had given his allegiance, he retained in full measure his Liberal convictions and sympathies, and wherever he felt justified in so doing, gave wholehearted support to my colleagues and myself. I mention this circumstance at the moment only because of the larger measure of loss which I feel we on this side of the House share in common with our Progressive friends.
Mr. King was of a quiet and retiring disposition. His voice was not often heard in debate, but his presence made itself felt in his frank and friendy intercourse with the
members, and in his exceptionally faithful attendance in the House. He was a man who made many friends and I should imagine very rarely made an enemy.
A very short time ago Mr. King suffered a great bereavement in the death of his wife, whose loss he greatly mourned. They had no family, but he leaves behind him immediate relatives and many friends by whom he will be greatly missed, and to whom this House will extend its fullest sympathy.


Hugh Guthrie: Mr. Speaker, this is the second
occasion within a comparatively brief space of time upon which the House has been asked to note the death of one of its members. Mr. King, the former member for North Huron in this House had, it is true, reached what is looked upon as the allotted span of life, but in appearance he retained many elements of youth and displayed great activity for a man of his years. During his career here he was most constant in his attendance, most diligent and assidious in the discharge of his parliamentary duties and while, as my right hon. friend has just said, his voice was not often raised in debate in this chamber, he was looked upon as a man of good judgment and strong common sense, a very valuable asset to this chamber and to the proceedings of this parliament. The loss of such a man will be felt here and perhaps in the constituency which he represented, more than in any other quarter. To his friends there and his friends here and to the relatives who survive him, we join in expressing our sincere sympathy.
Mr. JOHN L. BROWN (Lisgar):	It is
perhaps fitting, Mr. Speaker, that a member of the group with which Mr. King was more directly associated should express on this occasion our appreciation of the loss we have sustained. When I say that I shall always remember with pleasure my intercourse with Mr. King, I believe *1 express the sentiments of the group to which Mt. King belonged in this House. We always found him a genial companion, a man of unimpeachable integrity and sound judgment, and his voice was heard in the councils of the group of which he was a valued member. Wte recognize that that group has suffered a loss; we recognize that this House and the people of North Huron have suffered a loss as well, and they will be indeed fortunate if they find a successor to Mr. King who will foe equally faithful to his duties, equally sound in his judgment and equally willing to give all his time and the best that is in him to the service of his constituency and his country. With the other members of our' group I wish to express a sense of the loss we have sustained.

Supplementary Estimates


Mr. JOHN EVANS (Rosetown):: Mr. Speaker, John King was a man greatly respected by the group to which he belonged from 1921 on, as indeed I think he was respected by all who knew him. He was in this House shortly before Christmas, and it was a shock .indeed to most of us to read in the papers of his death. This .is only another reminder that life is uncertain at the best. Although our friend has reached what is usually considered the allotted span of life, I believe he was still young in the strength of his ideals and in his hopes for the emancipation of his own class. We hope also that the people of North Huron will see fit again to elect a man with the ideals and integrity of character possessed by our friend who has passed away. I would like to convey the sympathy of this group to his friends and relatives.
set forth in proper order and you, Mr. Chairman, read them as if they were just one resolution. That, I think, is not the proper form of procedure.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Very well take the resolutions one by one:	'
Payment of surplus funds of the Canadian wheat board (governor general's warrant of August 19, 1925), ?560,000.


Mr. STEVENS:: I think the minister ought to give us an explanation of these items. I notice that each amount is covered by a governor general's warrant, and, of course, the government will be most anxious to explain the use of governor general's warrants in view of criticisms of the past. These are all passed, I notice, in 1925-26, most of them in August, 1925. We ought to have an explanation of each item from the minister.



FURTHER SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES FOR 1925-26

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General, transmitting further supplementary estimates for the year ending March 31, 1926, was presented by Hon. J. A. Robb (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House, and referred to the committee of supply.

[Stage Direction]
A message from His Excellency the Governor General, transmitting supplementary estimates for the year ending March 31, 1927, was presented by Hon. J. A. Robb (Minister of Finance), read by Mr. Speaker to the House, and referred to the committee of supply.
Hon. J A. ROBB (Minister of Finance): This item has to do with the Department of Trade and Commerce and the minister, as hon. gentlemen perhaps know, is absent to-day in Sarnia. This amount is for a governor general's warrant issued in 1925. Hon. gentlemen will recall that the profits of handling wheat during a certain period were paid to the receiver general. At that time I was the receiver general and I resisted very strongly paying the amount back to the provinces. But my hon. friends opposite, and my genial friend alongside of me (Mr. Dunning), who was then Premier of Saskatchewan, insisted that this money belonged to the people who had produced the wheat. The governor* general's warrant is to meet that request.
[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair:
„-?e20lvec* that a sum not exceeding $2,727,376.35, being amount of further supplementary estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31 1926, be granted to His Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1926.
Hugh Guthrie: What item are we on?


Henry Herbert Stevens: The amount read by the Chairman covers eight items in all. I think that in this particular case each item should be read.


Hugh Guthrie: Item 374, providing for the payment of surplus funds of the Canadian wheat board-governor general's war-ran of August 19, 1925-is the first as I understand it.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The printed form shows that there are eight separate resolutions, all


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compensation to Crown Paving and Construction Co., on account of excavation work Edmonton gram elevator (governor general's warrant of September 1, 1925), $6,726.56.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Will the minister give us an explanation of this item, too?


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: I can explain the item, but it will have to be pretty much from memory. This was a case in which the contract for the excavation of the Edmonton elevator was let at a fixed price, with a provision with respect to weather conditions. It was in the late fall when the work began, and very severe weather set in, but the architect, Mr. Howe, insisted that the contractor gc on with the excavation under very exceptional and severe weather conditions. This is to provide for an allowance that was given the contractor for having performed the service during a period when it cost him a great

Supply-Miscellaneous
deal more money than if he had been granted the advantages of the weather provision in the contract. As I recollect them, these are the circumstances.


Hugh Guthrie: The only thing is that the minister's explanation hardly harmonizes with the date which is given in the item. A governor general's warrant for $6,726.56 was evidently issued on September 1, 1925.


Charles A. Stewart: I beg my hon. friend's pardon?


Hugh Guthrie: September 1, 1925 is the date of the warrant as given in the estimate now before the committee.


Charles A. Stewart: That was the date on which it was paid, but the work was done in January and February of the winter before.


Hugh Guthrie: A governor general's warrant for the expenditure of money can be issued only when the House is not in session, and only to meet urgent and necessary payments. This work, as I understand it, took place during the preceding winter, some time in January or February. Parliament was then in session, and the matter could have been brought to its attention and the necessary money voted. But the government allowed the session to conclude without, making provision for this money, and then seven or eight days after the dissolution of parliament, folowed by a general election, they resort to the process of a governor general's warrant to make a payment which has stood evidently from the preceding winter, and which could not be either urgent or necessary in view of the circumstance. I think we should offer a reasonable protest to the issue of governor general's warrant under such circumstances.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I should like the Minister of Finance to convey to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, when he returns, a request that he lay on the table of the House all correspondence in regard to this item, also a copy of the governor general's warrant and of the order in council on which it was based.


Mr. ROBB:: I will bring the matter to the minister's attention.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: May I point out to the ministers concerned that questions asked when the estimates were last before the House, I think on December 15 last, have not been answered, at least there has been no answer in my own case. I was promised an answer at that time which, however, has not yet been given. I would ask that some recognition be accorded the rights of members and
that answers to questions be given by the minister from whom information has been sought.


Charles A. Stewart: What minister?


Edward Joseph Garland: One of the ministers was not present at the time but the matter was to be brought to his attention by one of his colleagues.


Charles A. Stewart: I will be prepared to give my hon. friend an answer to his question to-morrow. I have not the necessary information with me to-day.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Payment of compensation levied against employers by workmen's compensation boards in respect of pensioners who are engaged in industry (governor general's warrant of September 7, 1925), $45,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: We would like to have an explanation now in regard to this item of $45,000. The occasion for the warrant is not clear and we do not know what it is for.


James Alexander Robb: I frankly admit to my hon. friend that I have not the information before me. I will furnish the information to-morrow, and bring down any papers we have in connection wilth it.


Mr. DUNNING:: It is the regular vote.


Henry Herbert Stevens: If the minister or his colleagues cannot explain it, it is rather difficult to expect us to appreciate why a governor general's warrant was necessary on September 7th, 1925, I think the very day of dissolution that year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh no.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It was two days after my hon. friend's famous speech at Richmond Hill, and I think he will find dissolution occurred just after that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, dissolution took place the day of the speech as a matter of fact.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Then it was within two
days of dissolution. I submit it is rather straining the credulity of hon. members on this side of the House to -ask us, without any explanation at all, to accept this -resolution:
Payment of compensation levied against employers by workmen's compensation boards in respect of pensioners who are engaged in industry.
My understanding of the various workmen's compensation acts is that they are provincial legislation, wholly under the administration of the provinces and presumably-I cannot say
Sup pi y-M iscellane ous

because I am guessing at it-the government is compensating some of the employers for contributions to this fund. We ought to know who the employers are and the reasons why the government should contribute. It is an extraordinary vote. I do not recall having seen anything of this kind before parliament, although there may have been such cases. As I say, the money was paid on governor general's warrant two days after the dissolution of parliament. I think it is really asking a little too much to ask that we should pass this item blindly, without any explanation.


Charles Avery Dunning: As I understand the situation, certain of the pensioners, partially incapacitated men, are employed by corporations and1 industries in various parts of the country. The employers co-operate with the pension board in that regard, but each employer in a province where a compensation board, a provincial inatitution, exists, is levied upon for his employees, and in the case of these pensioners, who are taken in as a national service by the employers, there is a vote, I think in the Department of National Defence, for the payment by the federal government of the workmen's compensation assessment with respect to such partially disabled men. It so happens that these supple-memtaries should have appeared in the estimates at the time of the last session of parliament. They are dealing with the fiscal year 1925-1926; hence the lack of preparation. But the matter happened to arise in going through the estimates before the Treasury board. This is an amount which is not easily calculable when estimates are made up.


Henry Herbert Stevens: All right. May we have the file laid on the table in this case?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for additional outlay in connection with fighting fires in the Canadian national parks (governor general's warrant of December 3, 1925), $18,500.
Charles A. Stewart: The explanation of this item is that with respect to forest fires we had one of the most disastrous years in the history of the country and we were about $18,000 short in our estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To meet the cost of the salving of the H.M. G.S. Armentieres, (governor general's warrant of December 3, 1925), $40,000.
James Alexander Robb: This is to meet the cost of
the salving of His Majesty's ship Armentieres.
fMr. Stevens.]


John Wesley Edwards: What was
the value of the vessel?


James Alexander Robb: If my hon. friend will refer
to the public accounts he will find the cost price.


John Wesley Edwards: There
would not be much sense in paying $40,000 for a vessel only worth $15,000 to $20,000.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To cover expenses in connection with the prosecution of an alleged combine in the distribution of fruit and vegetables in the provinces of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba (governor general's warrant of January 6, 1926), $60,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: I am not criticising the
vote, but very large sums were spent in connection with this case. It was a very noted case. Certain very large fines were collected. Personally, I would be satisfied if the minister would give us the particulars of this warrant, and, in addition to that, if the minister would lay on the table a statement of the total cost, to whom paid, and also as to the collection of the fines and to whom the fines were paid. Were they paid to the province, to the various cities, or to the Dominion exchequer?


James Alexander Robb: Perhaps it would be more in
order if my hon. friend would move for a return.


Henry Herbert Stevens: No, the Finance minister misunderstands me. I am not asking for any large return. I do not want to go to that trouble, but here we have an item of $60,000. There are a great many instances other than this, but I ask merely for a general explanation of this item, giving the totals. Then there is the question of the fines. As I have already intimated, I think there was one fine of $125,000 and several other fines of $25,000 apiece. Could we have a statement showing whether those fines have been paid or not? I heard a rumour that some of the fines have not been paid. There was an intimation that some of them were remitted. Whether that is true or not I do not know. If the minister would give us a financial statement of the case, which is perhaps one of the most noted cases that we have had in recent times, it would be sufficient.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is a departmental matter.


Mr. HEENAN:: I will lay a statement on the table.

Supply-Miscellaneous


Hugh Guthrie: If the minister says he
will lay a statement on the table that is all that will be necessary.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supplementary estimates for 1927-charges of management-printing, signing, sealing and macerating Dominion notes-further amount required, $50,000.
Item agreed to.
John Wesley Edwards: What about the second part of the item, Mr. Chairman? You read only the first part.
The 'CHAIRMAN: It seems that there are two amounts under the one heading, "Charges of management."


James Alexander Robb: I have not the information
before me, but I observe that the government of which my hon. friend (Mr. Edwards) was a supporter and candidate issued a governor general's warrant in this connection for 818,142. So there could not be much wrong with tire item.


John Wesley Edwards: The point I was making was simply that the item had not been brought up by the Chairman. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance does not give me credit when I am trying to help him. I want to see the item carried.


The CHAIRMAN:: The item is subdivided into two amounts. It is true I did not read the two parts of the item. The committee carried the item for 150,000. Shall the item for 860,000, for printing, advertising, inspection, express, etc., carry?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Justice-salaries-to provide for salary of a confidential messenger, $1,200.
Hugh Guthrie: I remember when I was
the occupant of the office of Solicitor General, we had a very excellent messenger, but he was not described as a confidential messenger. I think he is still there, and my recollection is that in that office we did not have a very great deal for a messenger to do. May I ask my hon. friend the Solicitor General whether he is asking for an additional messenger, described here as a confidential messenger, or is there to be only one messenger in connection with that office?


Mr. CANNON:: Only one.


Hugh Guthrie: The word "confidential" means nothing, I presume?


Lucien Cannon: I am not responsible for
the adjective.


Hugh Guthrie: Is there any distinction
in salary between the position of messenger and confidential messenger?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Mr. LAPOINTE:: I think it means a
couple of hundred dollars more.


Hugh Guthrie: The other one was just
an ordinary messenger. Might I ask if it is the same man?


Lucien Cannon: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police-salaries- to provide for the position of supervisor of ticket of leave, from April 1, 1926, to March 31, 1927, $3,840.
Mr. HANSON:: Is this a new vote? I
thought this was under the Justice department.


Ernest Lapointe: It is under the Justice
department.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is the same item, is it
not?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it a new vote?
Mr.. LAPOINTE:	Yes. This is a new
position that has been created and classified and the appointment made by the Civil Sendee Commission.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this a new appointee,
or is this the same officer who has been doing the work in the department?


Ernest Lapointe: No, this is a new position. The work was done previously by an officer of the mounted police, but it has been found better to have the work done by a civil employee altogether.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Civil government generally-to provide for authorization by the Treasury board of salaries, reclassifications, revisions, promotions and increases, $70,692.48.
Henry Herbert Stevens: We ought to have an
explanation of this item. I would ask briefly, is this a new vote, at whose instance has it been brought forward, and What does it cover? It mentions the Treasury board. I cannot see what reclassifications, revisions of salaries, promotions and increases there should be in the Treasury board to account for this additional 870,692.48;
Mr. RjOBB:	As my hon. friend knows,
when the Civil Service Commission provide for reclassifications or advancements in positions, all these are brought before the
Supply-M iscellaneous

Treasury board after having passed the deputy minister. When the deputy minister prepared his estimates earlier in the session, there were certain reclassifications, promotions and salary increases that were not provided for, and this is simply to clean up matters in the different departments.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Penitentiaries-British Columbia-to recoup Workmen's Compensation Board, province of British Columbia, payment made on behalf of late guard R. E. Farrell, killed on duty; and to provide for continuance of pension granted widow by board at the rate of $50 a month, $2,069.30.
Mr. SPENCER:: May we have particulars?


Mr. RCSS (Kingston):: Has the minister
received a similar application in the case of guard Jenkins, who was killed on duty at the Kingston penitentiary? If so, what action has been taken?


Ernest Lapointe: I remember having received an application for the widow of a guard who was killed while on duty at the Kingston penitentiary. I will take the matter into consideration and let my friend have the information.


Arthur Edward Ross: May it be reconsidered under some other vote?


Ernest Lapointe: It can be considered
on the estimates of this year.


John Wesley Edwards: May wo
take this item as an indication of the general line of policy which the government intends to follow in similar cases? For myself, I would be prepared to give my support to such a policy.


Ernest Lapointe: As my friend will see,
we are merely paying what has been granted by the Workmen's Compensation Board of British Columbia; we are complying with the judgment of a court.


John Wesley Edwards: But that
does not cover the $50 a month to the widow.


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, that pension was
granted by the compensation board.
Air. AIcGIBBON:	Would not the government be equally compelled by the practice of the Workmen's Compensation Board in Ontario to carry out the same policy?


Ernest Lapointe: I think they would, but I will give my friend more information about this when we come to the main estimates, and probably before that date, because my friend from Frontenac speaks to me often on this question.


John Wesley Edwards: I would think the government, if not compelled, would be impelled to do so on the principle of equality of status.


Ernest Lapointe: Those are two good
words from my hon. friend.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are all the penitentiary
employees under the Workmen's Cbmpen-sation Act in the various provinces?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What about New Brunswick?
An hon. AIEMBER:	They have no penitentiary there.


Mr. McGIBBON:: Is the government not
prepared to deal with this question now?


Ernest Lapointe: Had I known this matter would be discussed to-day I would have brought with me all the information relating to it. I regret that I cannot answer my friend to-day.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister might then be prepared to explain why this particular case is under the Workmen's Compensation Act of British Columbia and similar cases in the other provinces are not also subject to the various provincial acts dealing with workmen's compensation.


Ernest Lapointe: I will give the information to my friend later on.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Legislation-House of Commons- expenses of committees-further
amount required	$89,925 02
To increase the salary of the secretary to leader of the opposition from $2,500 to $3,000 per annum from
April 1, 1926	 500
To provide for the full sessional indemnity to members of the House of Commons-days lost through absence caused by illness, official public business, or on account of death during the present session,- Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in chapter 10 of the revised statutes, an Act respecting the Senate and House of Commons, or any amendments thereto-payment to be made as the Treasury board may direct	 10,000
Mr. CANTLEY:: Is it the intention of
the government to include the sessional indemnity of the late Hon. J. C. Douglas who, it will be remembered, died during the present session?

Supply-M iscellaneous


Ernest Lapointe: These estimates refer
to last year. The question of the indemnity of the late member will no doubt be considered when the estimates for the present year come before the House.


Edward Joseph Garland: I should
like an explanation of the second item, to increase the salary of the secretary to the leader of the opposition.


James Alexander Robb: It has been customary for
many years to provide for the secretary to the leader of the opposition, and we thought this was a reasonable increase of his salary considering the work he has to do.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
General-for distribution to members of parliament of publications of the League of Nations, $750.
Edward Joseph Garland: Do these
publications include the publications of the Labour branch of the League of Nations? If they do, those publications are not coming to me.


Ernest Lapointe: My friend will see that
the amount involved is very small. I know that the publications of the International Labour Bureau are printed as well as documents concerning the League of Nations. I find them in the library; I am afraid they are not distributed.


Edward Joseph Garland: I realize
that the item is obviously not adequate to cover the cost of distribution of these publications to all the members of the House and Senate. Frankly, I think the information contained in many of the publications is well worth distribution, and I would suggest to the minister the desirability of increasing the vote in order that members might be supplied with copies of all these publications.


Ernest Lapointe: The suggestion will be
taken into consideration. Meanwhile I may point out to my friend that he will find copies of the publications in the parliamentary library.


Edward Joseph Garland: Yes, but
when you are two thousand miles away it is very difficult to hunt for those publications in the parliamentary library. It is much more convenient to have them come through the mails.


Ernest Lapointe: I agree.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Agriculture-for the administration of the Destructive Insect and Pest Act, and necessary buildings, additional amount required, $70,000.
Mr. TOLMIE:: Will the minister kindly
furnish particulars of this item?


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: The amount inserted in the
main estimates last year was too small, consequently this item is inserted to bring up the vote to the amount for the preceding year. There is always a certain amount of work to be done to hold in check insects and pests that have already established themselves here as well as to try to keep out others that have not yet gained a footing. In the orchards, in our agriculture and in the forest there are various pests to contend with.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Were necessary buildings
not anticipated?


William Richard Motherwell: This is the regular designation of the vote. We do not anticipate any buildings in this vote.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To meet expenses in connection with preparations^ the World's Poultry Congress, 1927,
Simon Fraser Tolmie: Will this vote be ample to make a good showing for Canada at that congress?
Mr. MOTHERWrELL: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salary and expenses of agricultural produce marketing agent, additional amount required, $5,000.
Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is this a new vote?


Mr. MOTHER WELL:: This applies to
Mr. Wilson, who has been established in the Canada building on Trafalgar square for a few years. The vote has stood at $10,000. The primary object of the appointment has been to keep us constantly acquainted with matters relating to the export trade and to detect defects in our export surplus products either in the matter of quality or as regards containers. The expenditure has served a useful purpose.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: This does not mean an
addition to his salary?


William Richard Motherwell: I am sorry to say it does not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Experimental farms, additional amount required for work with tobacco, $5,000.
Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is any of this vote for
work in British Columbia?
Supply-M iscellaneous


William Richard Motherwell: No. We are doing some work in the Okanagan valley, but this is to establish a small farm in the province of Quebec at Montcalm where the tobacco business is assuming important proportions. Tobacco export has increased rapidly and to keep pace with the growing requirements we have established a small tobacco farm in Montcalm. Similar work has been done in Ontario.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
For assistance in the erection of pre-cooling plants for fruit, $30,000.
John Wesley Edwards: On what
basis is this assistance given?


William Richard Motherwell: This money is to be spent in the Okanagan valley. Different places are applying for plants and the chances are that Vernon will be successful. Some years ago we adopted the policy of contributing thirty per cent towards these plants, the parties interested paying the other seventy per cent.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is anything being done
in this direction in the Annapolis valley or in New Brunswick?


William Richard Motherwell: The climate down there is of such a nature that there has been no demand for such plants. It is fairly cool in the fall of the year and no such establishments have been asked for.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Compensation for animals tested under the Animal Contagious Diseases Act, and dying from the disease for which they were tested before it was possible to slaughter them under
the provisions of the act, as follows:
J. N. McDonald, Whim Road East,
P.E.I	$ 28
A. Pallardeau, St. Timothe, P.Q....	34
J. E. Leask, Seagrave, Ont	 96
E. Lindsay, Hornby, Ont	 80
Jos. Platt, Ste. Agnes de Dundee,
P.Q	 20
Andrew Oberle, Walkerton,	Ont..	1,910
Simon Fraser Tolmie: To one man in Walkerton the sum of $1,910 is asked for. Did all those animals die?


William Richard Motherwell: Under the Contagious Diseases Act, unless an animal is slaughtered no compensation is paid, but sometimes it happens that on the way to the^ place of slaughter an animal dies. In such a case no compensation is given and this is the only way the money can be provided.


Mr. COOTE:: Is this money which is being voted owed lawfully under the act, or is it simply a gift to these men, outside the law?


William Richard Motherwell: Under the act the animal must be slaughtered under government supervision either in an abattoir or at the owner's home. It occurs sometimes, however, that in transit an animal, for which compensation is bona fide payable, dies either from overcrowding in the car or from getting on and off too frequently. The case is a bona fide one and in order to pay the compensation we have to come to parliament to get the money.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Is it a common practice
to ship animals from one part of the country to another to be slaughtered while they are suffering from a highly contagious disease such as hog cholera?


William Richard Motherwell: No.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Then how does it come
about that these animals died so quickly?


William Richard Motherwell: There was a light
outbreak of hog cholera. As many doctors and veterinarians will differ in their diagnoses, it happened in this case that before a correct diagnoses was made many of the animals died on the farm of the owner.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grant to the Canadian Tuberculosis Association-further amount required, $5,000.
Peter McGibbon: What aid does the government give to these institutions?


James Alexander Robb: I have not the main estimates before me and the minister (Mr. King) is absent owing to the death of his brother. I know there is a contribution, but I will get the information.


Peter McGibbon: I understand that the
government cut the contributions to the society a year or two ago; the amount was reduced by half. Will the full amount be restored?


James Alexander Robb: None of these grants has
been reduced. The provinces have something to do in their administration and, as my hoa. friend knows, the government had to provide for a great expenditure incurred during the war. So far as it is possible to do so we are trying to reduce various miscellaneous grants and I would not promise an increase.


Peter McGibbon: I do not agree with the
government's policy in cutting down its contribution to a society which is doing such

Supply-Miscellaneous
excellent work. It is true the provinces are doing their share, but the help given to this institution of late has been meagre compared to what has been done in the past. The society is doing an invaluable work in endeavouring to eradicate a dreadful disease and it deserves greater consideration.


Henry Herbert Stevens: So far as I can see there
is no grant in the main estimates for this institution; this would appear to be the total grant.


Peter McGibbon: When you think of
what is being done to eradicate diseases from amongst the animals in the country and then look at what assistance is being given for the eradication of such a disease as this amongst the people the contrast is odious enough.


Charles Avery Dunning: What would be a reasonable grant?


Peter McGibbon: $25,000.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is what they are
getting.


Sir GEORGE PERLEY:: Does this mean
an increase in the vote?


Henry Herbert Stevens: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Pension-to provide for pension to Captain J. E. Bernier, $1,767.74.
Henry Elvins Spencer: May we have some
explanation of this item?


Charles A. Stewart: Captain
Bernier is a very old employee of the government; he was first engaged lay the Marine and Fisheries department and later in the Department of the Interior in expeditions up the east coast to the Arctic circle. He is now seven.ty-four years of age and lias been retired. Not being pensionable, under any superannuation law I am asking parliament to vote him this pension for the rest of his days, in order to place him on a parity with other civil servants.


Henry Elvins Spencer: The reason I asked was
to find out why he was not pensionable?


Charles A. Stewart: He did not
come under the provisions of the Superannuation Act; a good many of our civil servants were not fortunate enough to come under that act, and this is the only way we can take care of them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
National Defence-militia services-non-permanent active militia, $50,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: May I ask an
explanation of this?


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: I am told that this amount was
really included previously in a general vote for bonuses. As I understand it, the bonus was done away with and when the main estimates of the department were made up this amount was not included, it being thought the bonus would come out of the general vote. It was found that that was not so, and this amount had to be put in to take care of the increased salaries which were provided instead of the bonus.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Bonuses for whiat?


James Layton Ralston: For civilian salaries and
charges on the department.


Hugh Guthrie: This is for the nonpermanent active militia. I understood this represented an additional amount used last summer on training.


James Layton Ralston: The leader of the
opposition will agree with me that a certain amount of ithe salaries and wages at headquarters are chargeable to the permanent and non-permanent militia alike.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Naval services-further amount required for the maintenance of ships and establishments of the naval service, $100,000.
Hugh Guthrie: Could the minister give
us a word of explanation on this item? My reason for asking is that last summer, in July or August, While I was presiding over the department of National Defence for a time, it was represented to me that a heavy expenditure was very necessary in regard to our naval service in order to make it seaworthy. One of the training ships or one of the destroyers on the Atlantic coast, I think, was represented as being unseaworthy; it was said that she would have to go to the West Indies to take part in the imperial naval manoeuvres with a crew of something like one hundred young lads who were in training, and in the opinion of the officers of the department the boat could not be used for this purpose without involving serious risk of life. Is this amount which we are now asked to vote intended to put these ships in repair? I assume the money was spent during the past year. For what purpose was it used, and are these two destroyers now in a seaworthy condition?


James Layton Ralston: I am advised that this is not for the purpose referred to by my hon. friend. I think practically all of this amount is for the purpose of bringing our accounts with the British Admiralty up to date. We owe the admiralty a good deal of money for
Supply-Miscellaneous

the pay of officers who are with the British navy, for ordnance stores, technical stores which we get from them and which we cannot get in Canada, for ammunition, for ships' articles and for instructional supplies. This is for the purpose of squaring our accounts with the admiralty. They made a request that the account be straightened out, and this amount is for that purpose.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Air service-Canadian air force-further amount required to meet the demand from other government departments for extensions in civil operations, $398,000.
Hugh Guthrie: There is one point I would like to bring out; this amount is for the requirements of other departments of the government. Why should not that be charged to those departments? It makes the air service vote very large, and the air service gets no benefit from this amount while the people are sometimes inclined to criticise such expenditures. I would suggest that the other departments requiring these services pay for them, and the amounts be charged to them, which seems to me a fair proposition.


James Alexander Robb: We will take that into consideration.


Arthur Edward Ross: May I point out that this is something of which a good many will approve, as one way of increasing the air force. I am strongly in favour of it; the air force is a branch on which the government should spend much more money.


Mr. LANCTOT:: They are spending too much on it already.


Charles A. Stewart: May I say that my learned friend's suggestion was followed particularly in connection with the fire patrol work for a year or two, but it is not pleasing to have to vote a sum of money over which you have no control. We have two services, the aerial photography service, which is so valuable from the standpoint of a surveyor, and the fire patrol service, both carried on by the Department of National Defence, and we are in the position of passing accounts of which we knew nothing. Therefore we adopted the principle of putting the whole vote in the air force, they being responsible for it, and giving an estimate of what the requirements were.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Miscellaneous-to compensate Chairman W. C. Shelly, Vancouver parks board, $15,500.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Will the minister explain?


James Layton Ralston: I was about to explain, Mr. Chairman, that this estimate is to repay to the chairman of the Vancouver parks board an amount which he expended in order to pay off a claim of a dispossessed squatter. Vancouver park, I understand,-


Mr. LADNER:: Stanley park.


James Layton Ralston: Stanley park is owned by the government and there were a large number of squatters, one of whom established a prescriptive right. The chairman of the parks board paid off this amount Which is proposed to be repaid by the government.


Mr. ERNST:: Was the amount awarded by a tribunal, or is it simply a compromise settlement?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry but I cannot give that information. A prescriptive right was established, but I cannot tell my hon. friend how the assessment was arrived at.


Leon Johnson Ladner: If I might make a statement I would say that this action became necessary as a result, as the minister has said, of a prescriptive right being established by one squatter out of a number. Some of these cases went to the Supreme Court of Canada, and I think even to the Privy Council. The parks board wished1 to preserve this essential property for the purposes of Stanley park, and they were on the eve of losing it. Some speculators desired to take the property over, and were about to offer an amount to the squatter when the parks board stepped in and saved the property to the public.


Mr. BROWN:: Was that particular case a test case for the others?


Leon Johnson Ladner: The other cases had been tried and this particular case succeeded.


Mir. ADSHEAD:: What was the size of the property?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry but I do not happen to have that information before me.
Item agreed to-
Imperial War Graves Commission-further amount required to meet Canada's share of expenditures and contribution to endowment fund to March 31, 1926, $237,000.


George Halsey Perley: Would the minister be good enough to give an explanation with respect to the endowment fund. There is an endowment fund provided for, but I understand this is a larger amount than usual and I should like the minister to explain it.


James Layton Ralston: As I understand it, this amount of 8237,000 is for the purpose of bringing our contribution to what is called the

Supply-Miscellaneous
endowment fund up to date. A project has been inaugurated whereby a permanent fund is established for the keeping of the graves of our soldiers in perpetuity, and that fund requires payments, I think, over a period of five years. The present amount pays the instalment up to a year ago. I may say that the yearly amount payable- from now on is something like half a million dollars.


George Halsey Perley: I see that last
year it was half a million dollars.


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


George Halsey Perley: The minister says this endowment will call for payment extending over a period of five years?


James Layton Ralston: Yes.


George Halsey Perley: So I understand. I know a great deal about the Imperial War Graves Commission, I was a member of it from the beginning of the time I was in England. I have a great admiration and respect for the work the commission are doing, and am very glad the government has cooperated in providing this endowment fund.


Peter McGibbon: What is the basis of the appropriation?


James Layton Ralston: I am sorry but I cannot give my hon. friend that information at the moment.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: Is this exclusively for
graves overseas?


James Layton Ralston: Yes. The Imperial War Graves Commission, as I understand it, deals exclusively with graves overseas.


George Halsey Perley: May I say that
the Imperial War Graves Commission has to do with the graves of the British soldiers, who fell during the war, throughout the world. Colonel Osborne, of Ottawa, is the secretary for Canada and does the necessary work for the Dominion.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Railways-to provide for adjustment of allowances paid for railway and canal employees while they were on service in the Canadian Expeditionary Force during the Great war, $92,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: May I ask the minister a question or two in connection with this vote? In the early days of the war the employees of the Canadian government railways were given to understand that they would receive the full pay, as well as their military pay, on enlistment. At that time, I suppose, there was no idea that the war would last so long, or that it would become so great a charge on
32649-s



REVISED

[Stage Direction]
the country. Afterwards that policy, as I recollect it, was changed. Is this to supplement the original promise, or just what is the purpose of the vote? Are all the men that enlisted to be treated alike?
Charles Avery Dunning: There was no intention
by this vote, Mr. Chairman, to go back to the -original promises made by the Conservative government in 1914, which, were afterwards revised by that very government. But certain situations were created due to the taking over by the government of other railways. This particular amount was required to deal with employees who enlisted prior to May 1, 1915, that being the date upon which certain Grand Trunk Pacific undertakings became government undertakings. The result was that men who enlisted after May 1, 1915, had the advantage of the government's provision, but men who enlisted prior to that time, although employed on the same work, were not legally considered government employees, because they had already gone overseas before the Grand Trunk's undertaking was assumed by the government. Action was taken in connection with this class in the estimates of 1923, and the amount now placed in the estimates is to clean up outstanding claims of that particular class.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canals-St. Peters canal-improvements-additional amount required to pay claim of the Atlantic Dredging Company, $12,151.96 and interest on same at rate of five per cent per annum from October 1, 1925, $12,629.72.
Richard Burpee Hanson: I think we should have an explanation of this.


Charles Avery Dunning: An original claim by the contractors of an amount of $46,000, was subsequently whittled down by the department's engineers and by negotiation to the sum here mentioned. I will read an explanatory extract from the report of the engineers; not the whole of it because it is too lengthy. That extract is as follows:
The discrepancy between the original estimate of cost and the final amount paid is explained as follows: When the survey was made on which the original estimate was based, every effort was made to secure accurate information concerning the rock surface, and from points on the work where solid rock could be definitely located and also from the depth of old cribworlc -where it could be definitely ascertained, a profile showing the probable rock surface was plotted for the information of intending bidders. After the contract was let, it developed that the probable rock surface, as exhibited, for a length of 250 feet was a very hard cemented clay intermixed with stones. Consequently the contractors were required to excavate this material to the bot-



EIIITION

[Stage Direction]
Supply-M iscellaneous
[Stage Direction]
tom of tile canal for the crib seats, resulting in a large increase in the estimated quantities of excavation, cribwork, stone filling in crib work and earth filling behind cribwork.
Briefly the situation is this: The boring indicated that rock did not exist; consequently deeper foundations had to be created in cement clay formations.
Item agreed to.
Trent canal 

 improvements - additional amount required, $51,900.
Peter McGibbon: Is this canal completed? It has been on the way for about one hundred and twenty-five years, it is nearly completed, and if the government is ever going to get revenue from it, it can only be done by completing the work.


Charles Avery Dunning: The government does
not intend to complete the canal. So far as revenue is concerned, I think it can be said that all the revenue the government can get from that canal is now being received, the only revenue receivable being rentals from power supplied to individuals or to communities. We are now, I think, in receipt of the maximum amount of power rentals which we could receive, even if the canal were completed, and the government has no intention of completing it.


Peter McGibbon: I point out to the minister that the only practical use to which this canal could be put-although I would not advocate it-would be the encouragement of the tourist traffic. At the present time it is practically of no use.


Charles Avery Dunning: Tourists make a great
deal of use of that canal and can make use of it although it is not completed over the height of land.


George Gibson Coote: What particular improvements are necessary in the canal to require an expenditure of $50,000?


Mr. PECK:: In Peterborough and the
neighbouring district there is a strong feeling that the canal should be completed. The canal itself connects the Georgian bay with lake Ontario. Although the canal is in all two hundred and forty miles in length the amount required for actual canal purposes is about thirty miles. It has been constructed from lake Ontario to lake Simcoe, to the Severn river, and all that is necessary now to give complete communication is to construct a small section on the Severn river. I think there are two rapids. When that portion is completed, there will be a complete passageway for boats of six or seven feet draught from the Georgian bay to lake Ontario. There

is a certain amount of power to be generated still on the canal, and it is not, it seems to me, fitting, after so much money has been spent upon the canal, that this remaining section should not be completed. As I say, the people in my district are very much impressed with the importance of the work, and arrangements are -being made for deputations to Ottawa to wait upon the government, and urge the completion of the work. I trust what has been said by the Minister of Railways and Canals will not prejudice their application.


Charles Avery Dunning: I should be glad to receive any deputation on any subject whatever. Perhaps my hon. friends will permit me to bring down further information upon the whole matter in connection with the main estimates.
With reference to the supplementary estimate to which the remarks of my hon. friend from Macleod (Mr. Coote) have reference, I do not expect to spend it; none of it is spent yet, and inasmuch as the authority will expire on the 31st March I do not expect that the money will be spent. It will have to be provided for in the main estimates, because it has to do with the creation of power. Certain of our works along the canal are going to pieces and require to be replaced. They happen to be works of a character that produce revenue in the form of power, and consequently we desire to keep them in good shape, in order that we may receive the rental from them.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for compassionate allowance to the mother of Francis S. King, who was accidentally killed while employed on the work of St. Lawrence river investigations, $2,000.
Herbert Bealey Adshead: I do not know whether
this is all the allowance the mother will have to depend upon. The item says "compassionate allowance." I presume that she will have some other means on which to subsist, and that she will not be compelled to live on this amount. If, however, this is her sole means of support, would it not be better to give her an allowance of $100 a month to the end of her life, so that she would be able to exist, I observe that in the next item we are voting $4,000 to improve the acoustics of the House of Commons, which is quite necessary, but I think it is equally important that the mother of the man who was killed in the service of the government should receive an adequate allowance. I suggest that parliament should give the mother $100 or $125 a month to the end of her life.

Supply-M iscellaneous


Charles Avery Dunning: I should not like to be
placed in the position of being hardhearted in giving consideration to cases of this character. The case in question was that of Francis Stanley King, engineer's assistant St. Lawrence river investigation, who died following several wounds caused by having been struck by a train in April, 1926. The accident occurred while he was going to a point where he had been .engaged in taking the temperature of the water. The coroner's jury excused the Canadian Pacific Railway from any blame. The boy was a promising young chap of eighteen years of age, and had been contributing his earnings to the support of his family, which consisted of father, mother, two sisters over -twenty-one, and a brother and sister fifteen and five respectively. Application was made on behalf of the mother for compensation, and seeing that the case was one which could not be treated under the Workmen's Compensation Act, I recommend to the House that compassionate allowance as above indicated be granted by specific appropriation. The mother will be grateful to receive this consideration, to which I think she is entitled under the circumstances.


Mr. GUERIN:: I know something about
this case. The accident happened to one of my constituents. This boy was employed by the Department of Railways and Canals. He was, I believe, in the vicinity of Caughna-waga, he was sent out to get water, and to do this he had to cross the Canadian Pacific railway tracks; the train passed, travelling at a very rapid rate, and whether it was by suction or not-that is the pretension anyhow-he was drawn under the train and killed outright. He was practically the sole support of his father and mother. I had hoped -that the amount would be considerably greater, but the government have conceded $2,000 to the boy. I think that by every claim of justice and right the family are entitled to this money. The boy was killed while doing his duty, and through no fault of his own.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: I have had some experience with mothers who had been dependent upon a son, and were given a lump sum. The difficulty is that it disappears very quickly in various ways, and if this amount is for the mother's maintenance, I would suggest that it be not given in a lump sum, but rather in monthly payments, so that the mother will be assured of so much a month for her own support, just as she was during her son's lifetime.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
32649-8}
Ottawa parliament building-to improve acoustics of the House of Commons, $4,000.
George Gibson Coote: May I ask just what particular improvements are intended to be made, and whether $4,000 will induce the members to endeavour to make themselves heard in the House?


George Halsey Perley: There are
several pages of items coming under the Public Works department, and until some minister who is specially charged with these items is here, I would suggest that they might as well stand.


James Alexander Robb: The minister is away attending the funeral of the late Senator Pardee. I quite agree with my hon. friend (Sir George Perley) that we can let these items stand at least until eight o'clock this evening, when perhaps the deputy minister will be here.
Item stands.
Topographical surveys-additional amount required in connection with aerial surveys, etc., $20,000.


Hugh Guthrie: Here is another air service item. Will the minister explain?


Charles A. Stewart: This is for the purpose of preparing for the aerial survey work to be carried on next year-for the placing of gasoline and the taking of aerial photographs in a system of strips across the country, to be done by the Royal Canadian Air Force. The work must be limited owing to previous preparations not having been made for 1926, but this will be followed up by the placing of supplies by canoe in the summer time, in order to get better results from the flying operations, which are very extensive. Most of this work is along the Churchill river and in the northern portions of Manitoba and Saskatchewan.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To assist in the conservation and development of deep-sea fisheries, and the demand for fish-further amount required, $100,000.
William Gordon Ernst: I see that the item is to provide for assisting in the demand for fish. What amount of this item is being devoted to educational work, advertising and so forth?


Mr. CARDIN:: The object we had in view jn placing this item in the estimates was to meet certain requests which had been made of the department to help in the marketing of fish. As I understand it, the difficulty in certain parts of the maritime provinces is that the fishermen have not the opportunity of disposing of their fish as advantageously
Supply-Miscellaneous

as fishermen living in the vicinity of the larger ports, and the idea was to help establish a service for the purpose of collecting the fish from the smaller ports and bringing them up to the more important ports where they could be sold more advantageously. I must admit that nothing very definite has yet been decided upon. The suggestion has been made to us that we should subsidize a certain line of steamships, or else that we should help to establish a certain line, for the purpose of collecting the fish, but nothing very definite has been done as yet, and I am afraid that nothing is going to be done in that direction before this vote expires on the 31st of March next.


William Gordon Ernst: It would not be of any use until after the 31st of March.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Not very much, except so far as preparation is concerned.


William Gordon Ernst: Will further consideration be given to this matter in the main estimates for the coming year? At the present time, along a good portion of the coast of Nova Scotia the National Fish Company are operating boats for the purpose of collecting fish for their own trade, but along the south shore of the province, which embraces the counties of Lunenburg, Queens, Shelburne and Yarmouth, nothing is being done in that direction, and the fishermen are without any method of getting their fish to market. I would ask the minister to bear that in mind, and to provide some such service for the south shore of Nova Scotia.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Certainly. That is the object we had in view.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required to remunerate Messrs. Bain, Bieknell, Maedonell and Gordon, solicitors, for professional services rendered in the matter of the King vs. the Dominion Shipbuilding and Repair Company, Limited, $392.49.
Mr. GARDINER:: What is the explanation of this?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I regret not being in a position to give many details regarding this item, which relates to a case in the department. I may say that these fees are all taxed by the Department of Justice.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required to remunerate Messrs. Bain, Bieknell, White and Gordon, solicitors, for professional services rendered in the case of the King vs. the London Guarantee and Accident Company, Limited-the Prince Rupert Dry Dock and Engineering Company, $973.04.
George Gibson Coote: Were these solicitors successful in compelling the London Guarantee and Accident Company to pay the bond that has been hanging fire so long?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: They have not succeeded
yet.


George Gibson Coote: Is this case closed-was the government unsuccessful?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No, the case is not closed.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required to provide for the removal of the wreck of the S.S. Canadian Recruit,
George Halsey Perley: Perhaps the minister will give some explanation of this item?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The Canadian Recruit, one of the steamers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, was WTecked several years ago in the gulf of St. Lawrence, and it has since been practically established that the wreck was the cause of the stranding of other vessels at this point. Representations were made to us by the navigation companies that we should remove the wreck, and in view of the difficulties we are experiencing in getting the insurance rate reduced, we deemed it desirable that all obstacles to navigation should be removed.


George Halsey Perley: Was this wreck
located right in the channel?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It was just at the edge of the channel below Quebec. It is one of the most dangerous places of navigation in the gulf by reason of the currents. This wreck increased the difficulties of navigators, and we therefore decided to take this action and so allay the anxiety of the navigation companies.


Robert Gardiner: What was the depth of water at that point?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The wreck has been re- moved in order to give a clearance of thirty-five feet at low water. Before its removal the wreck was visible at low water.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mines and Geological Survey-Mines branch [DOT]-to provide for the operation of peat bog at Alfred, Ontario, $70,000.
Thomas Cantley: Explain.


Charles A. Stewart: The explanation of this vote is
that the federal government and the government of Ontario have spent in the neighborhood of $250,000 in developing machinery to

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manufacture peat fuel at Alfred. Two years ago the advisers of the government felt that the machinery had been perfected to the point where it would be well to let a commercial company operate the plant. This was undertaken by a company headed by a gentleman in Montreal-I have forgotten his name-under the supervision of Mr. Moore, representing the two governments. Unfortunately the company was not able to finance the project. Apparently investors felt that the process was not yet beyond the experimental stage, and that therefore the government should lend further aid. I may say that this peat fuel has been sold as far east as Three Rivers, as well as in this city and the surrounding country. I take it that this will be a very important industry not only to Ontario but also to the maritime provinces and to Quebec, and if this industry is to be established it is necessary that we take over the plant and operate it for one year.


George Halsey Perley: The government is taking back the plant?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes, and
operating it for a year. The plant is now located on land which is held by the owner at a very exorbitant price, and it has been decided to move it across the railway track at Alfred on to property that can be purchased on reasonable terms. As the difficulties confronting the company appear to be insurmountable, we have decided, as I say, to take over the plant and operate it for one year, and so demonstrate the feasibility of the project and the value of a cheap fuel. Moreover this demonstration will be useful for the utilization of the peat bogs at the southern end of lake Simcoe and in other portions of this province where the people have to rely on imported fuels. We will be able to use only a very small portion of this $70,000 before the expiry of this vote, and therefore it will be necessary to come back and ask for a further vote, in order that we may bring to a satisfactory conclusion the development of this cheap fuel and prove conclusively that it can be manufactured and sold at a reasonable price.


George Halsey Perley: Was it not supposed at the time the minister handed the plant over to this company that the system had been perfected so that the peat could be produced commercially?


Charles A. Stewart: That was
the advice we received from our technical officers. They suggested several improvements in connection with machinery which was not then actually in operation. The apparatus for spreading and pulverizing and
so forth was all in use but it was suggested that the steam engines be abandoned and electricity used instead for generating power. That has been done but the company unfortunately has been unable so far to put the manufacture of peat, in this respect, on a commercial basis.


Thomas Cantley: In the operations which
have been carried on over a number of years, and which are being carried on at the present time, the government has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and I can assure the minister that the whole scheme is impracticable as a commercial proposition. So far as I am aware-and I do not think I am subject to correction in this-the only peat that is used is the air dried product. In my judgment, as well as in the judgment of men better equipped than I am to give an opinion, it is impossible to manufacture peat mechanically and make it a commercial success in competition with the ordinary forms of fuel to be found in this country. As I say, we have spent several hundreds of thousands on this experiment, one year following another, under different managements in different departments of government, and we have got nowhere. Nor are we likely to get anywhere in treating peat mechanically. I protest against any further expenditure in this direction. .


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend is under a misapprehension if he thinks that the experiment had to do with anything but air dried peat. Having some knowledge of other experiments conducted by governments and private individuals, I am bound to say that little money has been spent on the development of peat fuel in comparison with expenditures made in other experimental work. What was done was to produce machinery to spread the peat and dry It by air. No attempt was made to invent any machinery that would compress the peat, the object being simply to develop the proper machinery to spread it on the surface and dry it. Machinery was also secured for picking up the peat, thus avoiding the excessive labour cost entailed in this process in the ahsence of such machinery. Up to the time when the experiment was turned over to the company, what had been done was largely a matter of developing and testing the necessary machinery to do the work in such a way as ho make it commercially feasible to sell the fuel in competition with other fuels on the market. We have done that. If the company had succeeded in financing the scheme they would have been making peat to-day and would have been able
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to sell it at a profit in competition with other fuels in this province and in the province of Quebec. These provinces are both in the acute fuel area. In this city and in Montreal between 15,000 and 20,000 -tons of this fuel have been burned in domestic furnaces and it has proved successful. While therefore one cannot say that it is entirely beyond the experimental stage, nevertheless the experiment has been carried far enough to demonstrate that peat fuel can be produced by the process upon which these expenditures have been made.


George Halsey Perley: I know something personally about this matter because forty years ago I spent a good deal of money trying to develop peat fuel commercially. There is no trouble about selling it; it is a very fine fuel. If we could discover a method by which it could be made satisfactorily from a commercial point of view it would be worth a great deal of money [to this country because we have peat bogs in every part of Canada. And it would help to solve our fuel problem. There is, I repeat, no trouble about either selling it or burning it; indeed, I burned it in my own house forty years ago. The problem is to complete successfully such a process as will turn out the fuel commercially at prices which the people can afford to pay. I understood from the minister that when he handed the property over to the company -they had a completed process. It seems now that it is not entirely successful.


Charles A. Stewart: I am sorry my hon. friend got that impression. Certain drawings were made for the improvement of the machinery, so that this part of the machinery at least could not be said to have been tested. The major portion of the machinery was all tested and proved efficient and to that extent the process has gone past the experimental stage. Unfortunately, however, as in the case of many new enterprises, they could not finance the project and carry it on, so that they were unable to operate.


George Halsey Perley: I doubt whether it was a lack of funds that made it difficult for them to carry on. I am not sure whether as a matter of fact it was found that the process had not been sufficiently completed to enable the fuel to be made commercially. That is the question. I doubt very much whether tire process has reached the point where peat can be turned out in large quantities at a reasonable price. I cannot understand why the government should have handed the plant over to a private company unless the process was completed. -Now the plant must 
be taken back. The simplest thing to do, in my j udgment, is to continue the experiment in a small way. I am willing that a reasonable sum should be spent in an endeavour if possible to discover some means of making use of this natural product.


Charles A. Stewart: We are confident that we can sell the fuel if we can move the machinery and set up the plant, which is all there with the exception of some of the machinery which the company has bought.


George Halsey Perley: Does the minister suggest that he can sell the fuel at cost?


Charles A. Stewart: We can sell it and make a profit; we have demonstrated that with machinery not entirely completed. We have to sell the fuel at about $7 or $8. You can manufacture it and put it on the cars for less than 85, and it has already been proved that we can cut that $5 cost considerably. It will be remembered also that we had to haul the fuel a considerable distance to Alfred station. We propose now to lay a track to the fuel bed itself, thus effecting a saving.


George Halsey Perley: When this matter comes up in the main estimates the minister might bring down a statement covering a period of months, giving the expenditures and the receipts, to show that the fuel can be profitably disposed of.


Charles A. Stewart: I shall be
glad to bring down a statement of costs when the general estimate is up.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: After the manufacture of this fuel has been prov ed a commercial success is it the intention of the Minister of the Interior to continue operating the plant as a government concern or to sell it again to some company?


Charles A. Stewart: It is not the intention of the government to continue operating it as a commercial enterprise once it has proved commercially practicable, but to sell it to those who can operate it.


Mr. RYERSON:: May I ask the minister
if he has any figures showing -the amount expended by this government during the last ten or twenty years in connection with these experiments?


Charles A. Stewart: I can get
those figures for my hon. friend. This particular experiment was carried on jointly with the Ontario government.


Robert Edwy Ryerson: I might back up the
words of some other hon. members by saying that a great deal of money has been expended during the last twenty-five years on

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experiments in connection with peat fuel. To my personal knowledge two or three companies have spent a lot of money and failed in attempts to discover this process, and it seems to me time the government called a halt on the experimental stage of this peat fuel business.


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
agree with my hon. friend. I may be a protagonist of peat fuel, but I am convinced that the process will work. I have watched it for two years and I am convinced that fuel can be made and sold in competition with other fuels at a price which will leave a profit. For the information of my hon. friend I may Say that a millon dollars was spent in Saskatchewan in an endeavour to briquet the lignite coals there, and after spending that amount we did not have a process that would work satisfactorily. But we kept at it, and through information received from the university of Dakota we eventually did evolve a process of briquetting these coals successfully. One might very well say that the million dollars was a total loss so far as our experiments were concerned, but that is not so. It seems to me that it is the business of the government to endeavour to bring into use these latent natural resources, to spend some money on them and if necessary take some losses. I am very keen about this thing because I may tell you that I was very much opposed to it when I came here, and wanted to stop the whole thing. To-day, however, I have changed my mind, after very careful investigation, and I am satisfied that these experiments at the Alfred bog can be made a success. If that is the case then public or private enterprise will open up other bogs in Ontario and manufacture this fuel.


Thomas Cantley: I am very glad to observe the minister's recent conversion. I have gone to most of the meetings of the mining society for more than twenty years, and during all that time various reports have been brought in regarding the Alfred bog. It has been a failure from beginning to end. I think the minister has forgotten some early history, or he would have remembered that efforts were made to dry the peat by the use of steam, and in other ways, and all those efforts were unsuccessful. These bogs have a value but it is only a local value. In Ireland and Scotland and other places where the people immediately adjoining these bogs spade the material out and dry it in the sun, it has a certain value, but it has no value when you have to employ machinery of the kind now used. The history of this enterprise for the last twenty years proves that fact
beyond question. The minister can spend his $70,000 but I do not believe he can come here next year and tell us that this is a commercial success.


Arthur Edward Ross: I would like to
ask the minister if he has information as to the output of the present machinery and as to how many years that output will continue with the present machinery in operation?


Charles A. Stewart: I do not
understand my hon. friend's question.


Arthur Edward Ross: There are several
questions in this connection. First, what would be the possible output of peat with the machinery now in operation or about to be put in operation, and for how many years could that output be continued?


Charles A. Stewart: I estimate
that within the season, which in Ontario is necessarily short, because it must be air dried, the capacity of this plant would be about 30,000 tons, but I cannot give my hon. friend an estimate of how many years the Alfred bog would last. I assume however, that it would last a great many years with that output.


Mr. PRICE:: I am very glad indeed to see anything done in connection with the development of our natural resources, but in regard to one of our resources, gas and oil, outside capital has been spent in Canada which would like a little easement from the duties that are exacted on casings, for instance, and other machinery used in the development of this field. Last year I think some encouragement was given to the development of the oil shale industry, in regard to the bringing in of crushing plants for the extraction of oil from shale, but at the same time the government exacts a very high duty on casings used in drilling wells which are not manufactured in this country satisfactorily. In the maritime provinces the success we have had in connection with gas and oil has resulted from wells varying in depth from 1,500 to 3,000 feet. The casings used are from eight inches to fifteen inches in diameter; they are required to be of great strength and properly milled and there is no dependable material of that kind manufactured in Canada. Therefore I would like to take this occasion to draw to the attention of the minister the fact that these companies which have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the last ten or fifteen years without a single dividend, require at present a little easement.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no duty on that piping.
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Otto Baird Price: I took the matter up with the Minister of Finance last year, when the duty on machinery for the extraction of oil from shale was under consideration, and something was done in that connection to reduce the duty and give these people an opportunity for development. In the case of these other concerns, however, those who have to go down thousands of feet into the earth before they know whether or not the well is of any value, no relief at all has been given. I think the Minister of Finance will bear me out in that, and I think he is sympathetic to those concerns.


James Alexander Robb: I do not like to interrupt my hon. friend's speech but will he guarantee that such a proposal will receive support from that side of the House?


Otto Baird Price: I am in favour of anything
tending to the development of our natural resources, which does not interfere with our own manufacturing concerns. Our Canadian concerns do not manufacture a satisfactory article in this case, and therefore people interested in oil and gas development should be allowed to bring this material in free of duty.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Geological Survey-grant to second Empire Mining and Metallurgical Congress, $25,000.
Hugh Guthrie: What is this?


Charles A. Stewart: This world congress is coming to Canada this year and will hold meetings right across the country. There will be representatives of mining institutes and people interested in mining, from all over the world. The meetings will begin in Montreal, and will continue in this city, and in Toronto and Winnipeg. Sessions will be held in all these centres right through to Vancouver. Side trips will take place from Toronto, and points in the north, into the northern mining areas of Ontario. A splendid program has been prepared, and we have been asked to vote $25,000 for the purposes indicated.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indians-Nova Scotia-medical attendance and medicines-further amount required, $5,000.
William Gordon Ernst: May I ask the minister
whether any of that sum is to be expended for the Indian reserve at Scarsdale, Lunenburg coynty, Nova Scotia?


Charles A. Stewart: I cannot tell my hon. friend whether that particular reserve is included. WTe have had over-expenditures 
for medical relief in Nova Scotia, as indeed in all the other provinces, but I cannot give him any definite amount that may have been spent on an individual reserve.


William Gordon Ernst: Can the minister supply the information in the near future as to how much has been spent in that connection on the reserve at Scarsdale in Lunenburg county? I am fairly well acquainted with that reserve and I have been unable to find any Indians on it. It is filled with white men, and yet the government has been maintaining a medical service, schools, and an Indian agent. As a matter of fact all the people there want to get title to their land. They do not want to be treated as Indians, and they have asked that steps be' taken to have the lands conveyed to them. There are no Indians at all on the reserve, and yet the government has been spending money for these purposes for the last fifteen or twenty years.


Charles A. Stewart: I may say
for the information of my hon. friend that there are a number of reserves upon which there are no Indians. I wish also to tell him that if there are no Indians on the reserve then the government have not been spending any money on it; any expenditures made are on the Indians themselves.


William Gordon Ernst: There has been money spent on this particular reserve.
Mr. STEWART (Edmonton) There may be money spent for the agent. We do not spend money on the land but on the individuals, therefore my hon. friend's information could not possibly be correct.


William Gordon Ernst: How about schools?


Charles A. Stewart: If there is a school there must be Indians in attendance.


William Gordon Ernst: They are shown as Indians,
but I am prepared-


Charles A. Stewart: To take
your oath that they are whites?


William Gordon Ernst: -to state that they are whites.


Charles A. Stewart: Have they
got votes?


William Gordon Ernst: That depends upon which government is in power.


Charles A. Stewart: I shall be very glad to get the information for which my hon. friend has asked.


Mr. SMITH (Cumberland):: Would the
minister supply a list of the Indian reserves in Nova Scotia?

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m


Charles A. Stewart: Not offhand. There are a great many reserves in Nova Scotia, but they are small ones.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Indian education-further amount required,
Hugh Guthrie: Will the minister be good enough to give some information about this vote?


Charles A. Stewart: As hon.
gentlemen are aware, we have taken over the construction of Indian schools and the purchase of existing schools that are sufficiently valuable to justify their acquisition from the church organizations that have been carrying on this work. I may say that in accordance with our treaty obligations the education of the Indian devolves upon the government. Up until a few years ago, indeed up until 1923, the government were carrying on this work by means of a per capita grant, and the various church organizations had established themselves-had constructed school buildings and were maintaining them for a grant that was less than $20 per head. I felt this was hardly fair, and I recommended to the government that in future we build all schools and equip and maintain them, and let the various church organizations carry on the teaching with a slightly increased grant. This has relieved the churches of a very considerable obligation, and has given quite an impetus to the work. I intend speaking upon this question when the Indian estimates are up, or prior thereto, because I think it is important that parliament should have full information, first as to our responsibility to these aborigines, and secondly as to what we are doing to carry out the treaty provisions, particularly with respect to education.


Hugh Guthrie: Has this amount been
spent this year?


Charles A. Stewart: The contract for the Blood reserve school in Alberta, plus extras on the building, is for $130,117. Of this amount $19,000 is to be paid from the 1926-27 appropriation. Sioux Lookout school in Ontario, which is also nearing completion, is being erected for $84,400. We require $91,000 to clear up the furnishing of these two schools and make them fit for the reception of pupils. Then there is an amount of $6,000 required for the Gitladamix reserve, where the schoolroom was burned. This provision is badly needed. I am going to say to the House now that I shall be forced, perhaps this session, to ask for a larger appropriation for Indian education than we have
needed in the past, because the work is always growing, and the demand is becoming greater as the Indians familiarize themselves with what they are entitled to receive from the government. I am asking for the present amount to clear up all our obligations for this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Labour-unemployment	relief-to provide
amounts due various municipalities and provinces as authorized by P.C. 315, $59,500.
Hugh Guthrie: I do not quite understand this vote. Will the minister be good enough to explain it?


Peter Heenan: As the hon. member will recall,
under P.C. 315 the (Dominion government undertook to supplement, to the extent of one-third, the expenditure necessary by the provinces and municipalities to take care of unemployment relief last year.


Hugh Guthrie: Is it paid to the provinces?


Peter Heenan: To the municipalities.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Additional amount required for investigational work re the practicability of bringing reindeer into the Northwest Territories, $5,000.
Hugh Guthrie: Will the minister say a
word on this?


Charles A. Stewart: The problem of a meat supply in the north country is becoming an ever-increasing one. Some years ago the Hudson's Bay Company made the experiment of locating reindeer on the east coast. It was not entirely a success, largely because an investigation was not held by a botantist for the location of a proper feeding ground. The United States government have maje a great success of the rearing of reindeer in Alaska. Not only the government but many private individuals have large herds of reindeer, and it will be an easy matter to transport them from Alaska to the Northwest Territories, to the Eskimo and Indian tribes further north. We have engaged the services of two botanists who were recommended by the American government and who are now in the north country endeavouring to locate feeding grounds for the reindeer. It is merely a precautionary measure, to ascertain whether we have in the Northwest Territory feeding grounds on which they would thrive, and for that purpose we ask the House to vote this amount.


Hugh Guthrie: Have we not made other experiments with regard to reindeer?
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Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Hugh Guthrie: With what result?


Charles A. Stewart: We have a
few of the herd on Anticosti island, but the reindeer that were placed on the east coast of Hudson bay did not thrive. The difficulty was one of pasture. If these thoroughly experienced men can locate areas in the central portions of the territories upon which reindeer can thrive, we will purchase the reindeer, drive them across the territory and seek to instruct the Eskimo in the care of reindeer.


Mr. GEARY:: Are these botanists Americans or Canadians?


Charles A. Stewart: Americans.


George Reginald Geary: No Canadians?


Charles A. Stewart: None who
have had experience with reindeer and their problems We got these two men so that we would make no mistake.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for payment to the government of the United States in pursuance to articles 8 and 10 of Lake of the Woods convention as signed at Washington on February 24, 1925, and as approved of by the House of Commons on Mav 5, 1925, and by the Senate on May 12, 1925, $275,000.
Hugh Guthrie: How is this arrived at?


Charles A. Stewart: It was
allocated by the board appointed for the purpose of estimating the damage claims that might arise, and this was our proportion of the amount payable to the American residents on the south shore of the lake of the Woods whose property would suffer damage.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
James Alexander Robb: I wonder if my hon. friend
would be ready before six o'clock to let an item go through. Item 381 in the further supplementaries for 1925-26, was held up by my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre. It was a large item, and I was not able to give the explanation, but I have it now. It is in the small sheet, 381 of the supplementary estimates.


Hugh Guthrie: ' I would prefer that my hon. friend should take it up to-night.


James Alexander Robb: I would be glad to wait, but
I wanted to point out to my hon. friend that it was a customary item and had gone through each year. It was passed in 1919-20 and in 1921-22 during my hon. friend's administrat-tion. It was a customary item.


Hugh Guthrie: I would ask that my hon. friend let it stand till eight o'clock.
Reception of the Interparliamentary Union for Peace, $11,448.88.


Hugh Guthrie: Is that something that
is going on in the future?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend will remember that there was a meeting at Washington of the Interparliamentary Union, and the delegates were entertained at Ottawa later.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Expenses under the Naturalization Acts, 1914 and 1920-further amount required, $2,000.
Henry Elvins Spencer: Could we have some explanation of this?


Mr. RINFRET:: It is merely to complete
the work of the year. It is a routine vote- nothing special about it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Dominion-provincial conference, $10,000.
Hugh Guthrie: What does this refer to?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This item was in connection with the Dominion-provincial conference with reference to provincial legislation where there have been conflicts in the courts.


Hugh Guthrie: Has it been held?


Ernest Lapointe: No.


Hugh Guthrie: It is not going to be
held between now and March?


Ernest Lapointe: No, no.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Records Commission, contingencies and salary of chairman, $3,000.
Hugh Guthrie: What is this commission?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: It is a commission for
the purpose of helping in the collection of manuscripts for the Archives department. It has been found that we could not collect the material quickly enough and in proper order for that very important department, which has developed very much lately, and it was therefore felt it would be better to establish a commission, on the same standing as the commission which exists in England, for the purpose of collecting such material. The idea is to have a chairman, together with honorary members in every province in Canada, to make the work of collection more active. The amount asked for just now is only $3,000.

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Hugh Guthrie: I approve entirely of
the object which the government has in view in this respect, which is to assist the archivist. Might I ask whether a chairman has been selected?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Yes. I have a copy of
the order in council here, appointing Dr. Doughty chairman of the commission on May 12, 1926.


Hugh Guthrie: Is this an additional
salary for Dr. Doughty?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: He will not get the full
amount for the current year, as it will date back only to the date of the order in council.


Hugh Guthrie: I would just like to
understand the position correctly. Do I understand that Dr. Doughty is both Dominion Archivist at a special salary, and that he is also to be chairman of the Public Records Commission at another salary?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: That is the situation.


Hugh Guthrie: How do you overcome
the provisions of the Civil Service Act and allow him to draw two salaries?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Dr. Doughty
comes in as a deputy head under the Civil Service Act, and if parliament votes this amount for the Public Records Commission, there will then be parliamentary authority for the purpose. As no doubt my hon. friend is aware, Dr. Doughty is a member of the service who has quite an exceptional knowledge with respect to Canadian documents and manuscripts of various kinds. It has been with the greatest difficulty that the government has been able to retain Dr. Doughty in this country, for he has had offers from Great Britain that have been most attractive. I might say that Dr. Doughty is staying here at the present time at a very considerable financial sacrifice. He is an officer of the service who gives not only his days, but his nights and his entire time to the work that he is interested in as a specialist, and the government felt that if they were able to retain his services, no doubt parliament would endorse their action by supplementing the amount he is receiving as a deputy minister with this extra amount to be given him as chairman of the commission, on the understanding, of course, that he gives time to the work of the commission in addition to what would be expected merely of the Dominion Archivist.


Hugh Guthrie: I endorse everything my
right hon. friend has said in regard to Dr. Doughty. I think he is one of the ablest
men in the service of the government, and I sincerely hope that he is continued for the special work which he does. However, I do not know that the principle we are now adopting is a correct one. I think it would be far better to increase his salary as Dominion Archivist by a proper amount than to add to it in this indirect way, for that is what is really being done by the appointment of this commission. I would support a substantial straight increase in Dr. Doughty's salary, as I think it is very necessary for Canada to retain him.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries and expenses, passport office-further amount required, $6,500.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This item is
to provide for new passports that are necessary in consequence of a new Governor-General. They have to be made out in the name of the new Governor-General.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required for expenses of delegation to Imperial Conference, $10,000.
Hugh Guthrie: Is this all spent?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, it is not
all spent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.
Miscellaneous-To replace and implement the sum of $80,000 paid the Government of Canada by the Canada Atlantic Railway Company for the purpose of clearing the government reserve on the west bank of the Rideau canal between the Plaza and Laurier avenue in the city of Ottawa and to construct thereon an extension of the park and driveway system in charge of the Ottawa Improvement Commission-the said sum of $80,000 having been expended, in satisfying claims of the heirs of the Sparks estate in connection with the government reserve on the east, or opposite bank of the Rideau canal between the Plaza and Laurier avenue, $100,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: Could we have an explanation of this item? It is rather large.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman, I understand that some years ago the late Mr. Booth, in his position as president of the Canada Atlantic Railway Company, presented to the city of Ottawa a sum of money for the purpose of clearing the government reserve on the west bank of the Rideau canal and making it a park. The money was used for another purpose. It is now the desire of
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the improvement commission to continue the driveway system from Laurier avenue bridge to the post office, and this vote is really to replace the original gift from the Canada Atlantic Railway Company.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide, subject to the approval of the Treasury board, for salaries, reclassifications, revisions, promotions and increases, $89,340.
James Alexander Robb: This is the usual vote for the reclassification which comes along each year.


Mr. ARTHURS:: But why each year?


James Alexander Robb: Because of reclassifications
during the year. Early in the year the deputy ministers submit estimates based on the salaries then current, and during the year the reclassifications in the different departments, approved by the Civil Service Commission, become effective. Those are submitted to the Treasury board. Sometimes at the end of the year the deputy ministers find themselves short of their requirements.


James Arthurs: As a rule these reclassifications have been pending for many years.


James Alexander Robb: It does not really mean more expenditure; there may be less expenditure in one department and more in another. We have to vote the item to satisfy the Auditor General.


Henry Herbert Stevens: It is raflher an ingenious explanation that this does not mean more money. Why, we are voting more money. I would call the minister's attention to the fact that this afternoon when I asked for an explanation of the $70,000 odd under item 390 he gave the committee precisely the same explanation that he is now giving for this item. Why should there be two items, almost identical in wording, in the supplementary estimates for this current year? Under civil government item 390 is:
To provide for authorization by the Treasury board of salaries, reclassifications, revisions, promotions and increases, $70,692.
Item 496 reads:
To provide, subject to the approval of the Treasury hoard, for salaries, reclassifications, revisions, promotions and increases, $89,340.
The wording is practically the same.


James Alexander Robb: One is inside and the other outside.


James Arthurs: What is the difference between the inside service and the outside at the present time?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: One is inside and the other outside, that is all.


James Alexander Robb: The inside service comprises the departments in Ottawa; the outside service may include the services at various customs outports as well as post offices throughout the country.


James Arthurs: In some instances are they not all classified under one head?


James Alexander Robb: Each is under a different vote.


Hugh Guthrie: We ought to have this more clearly explained. The first item is 390, "civil government generally": there is neither inside nor outside service about that. That item is for the civil government of Canada, I assume. The item we are now discussing is 496, to provide for salaries, reclassifications, revisions, promotions and increases. The amount of this vote is $89,000 odd. There must be some explanation of these two items and we should like to know what it is.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Civil government as set out in the main estimates relates to the inside civil service exclusively, and in addition to that there is the outside service, which is voted as such, although not under the head of civil government. The explanation would be that the same reason that accounts for the sum required in the one case applies equally to the sum required in the other. The Civil Service Commission from time to time make reclassifications of employees, promoting them from one grade to another, and it is impossible before the promotion is made to know what amount will be required to enable the government to pay the extra salary attached to the new grade. It is only at the end of the year that the total amount can be made up. It has been suggested that it might be advisable to have no promotions take effect except at the beginning of the fiscal year, all promotions to become operative at that time. If that were done it would not be necessary to make this request of parliament on each occasion to adjust differences that arise between one fiscal year and another.


Hugh Guthrie: Are we to understand
that it is definitely stated that the first item is for the inside service and the second for the outside?


James Alexander Robb: As my hon. friend knows,
"civil government" is generally understood to apply to the administration of the different departments in Ottawa. The other service might be in Toronto or Montreal or Hamilton.

Supply-Miscellaneous


Hugh Guthrie: The distinction is between the outside and the inside. The first item applies to the inside and the second to the outside service.


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Hugh Guthrie: Then we understand that.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister says that this vote does not necessarily mean more money. Are there ever any demotions in the civil service?


James Alexander Robb: Very seldom.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for salaries and expenses of the advisors engaged in tariff inquiry. Payments may be made notwithstanding anything in the Civil Service Act or regulations thereunder. Further amount required, $25,000.
Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Since the procedure in connection with this tariff inquiry has not been very fully worked out I suggest that the public should be given fuller information than it has received so far. Some of us have been supplied with copies of the applicant's case in particular instances but no copy has ever been given of the case in rebuttal or of the conclusions reached by the tariff board. On one occasion I had an opportunity of listening to one of the hearings, when some very important evidence was given against the granting of an application. No report was published in the press of that particular hearing and there is no way in which the public can be apprised of what may be said against any application. Further than that, seeing that the minister is not bound to act on the recommendations of the tariff advisers, there would seem to be no particular reason why the public should not be given at least a summary of the conclusions of the board. The board might be made of great educational value to the public if the arguments pro and con, or a summary of them, could be made available to members of the House and to the country at large.


Mr. KAISER:: How many officers are there on the board, and what salary does each receive?


James Alexander Robb: There are three members on the board. The chairman devotes the whole of his time to the work of the board, as does the secretary; the two other members are called in when the board is in session. The chairman's salary is $10,000 per annum and that of the other members $3,000.


John Evans: I wish the minister would
answer the question as to the publication of arguments. The committee would like some satisfactory statement in that regard.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend will understand that if the board is to serve any useful purpose it must be in a position to secure information which it might not always be advisable to publish. If this were not understood we might not be able to get such information as would enable us to reach a fair conclusion in respect of every matter submitted to the board. Speaking offhand at the moment, however, I see no objection, if any hon. gentleman moves to that end, to having tabled the report of any particular hearing. I do not see why such a report should not be tabled, reserving whatever information might be deemed confidential. So far I have not observed anything confidential handed in to the board. The board is a free forum where all are heard and the newspapers give, I think, fair publicity to the evidence on both sides.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are the only matters coming before the board those referred by the minister, or may an application be made by any party directly to the board?


James Alexander Robb: When anyone writes to the
minister requesting a reduction or an increase in the tariff the minister replies that, if it is desired, he will submit the request to the board, and he indicates the procedure which is followed. On the recommendation of the retiring chairman we shall change that method somewhat. In view of certain delays that have taken place we shall now require applicants to prepare a brief giving the reasons for any increase or decrease, as the case may be, so that those opposing the application may be in a position to meet the arguments presented.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Would the minister go further than that? I understand that the memorandum of the applicant is made available to members of the House; I have received several documents of that nature. On the other hand, the counter arguments are not available. If we are to be in a position to judge the merits of a case it would seem reasonable that not only the applicants' memoranda but, as well, the counter arguments be submitted to us.


James Alexander Robb: That is a matter of record in the department; if one is tabled the other will be.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Are these memoranda
available automatically to members of the House or are they obtained on request?


James Alexander Robb: I should think it would be by request; many matters are brought up and we must exercise reasonable judgment in running up a big bill. I know that now there is some lobbying going on to increase the amount of printing and to have a lot of
Supply-M iscellaneous

things printed which will be piled away where no person will ever read them.


Hugh Guthrie: May I inquire of the
minister whether the tariff board on hearing an application makes any recommendation as to what action should be taken?


James Alexander Robb: No, the tariff board is a fact
finding board.


Hugh Guthrie: They do not make recommendations?


James Alexander Robb: No. The government of the
day must take the responsibility.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Trade and Commerce-amount required to refund money collected on overages in public terminal elevators, $81,330.74.
Henry Herbert Stevens: We will have to have
some explanation of this, I think. Will the minister give us some idea of what this is?


James Alexander Robb: This amount is the total of
the sums paid under protest by the following terminal elevators to the Board of Grain Commissioners in accordance with section 95 of the Canada Grain Act:
Empire Elevator Company, Limited. $ 2,921 82 United Grain Growers, Limited.. ..	13 281 48
Grand Trunk Pacific Elevator Company. Limited	
15,500	22lort Arthur Elevator Company..	..	35,116	73Thunder Bay Terminal	Company..	12,107	62
Saskatchewan Co-operative Elevator
Company	 2,030	14
F ort William Elevator Company,
Limited	 372	73
Total	$81,330 74
It was claimed that we had no right to collect these overages; they went to court and the judgment was against us, and we are refunding what was paid in.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Do I understand that now the government are not permitted under the law to collect any of the overages at all?


James Alexander Robb: The act was amended, so
that now we have some right of collection. Under the old act we did not have that right.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What proportion does the government collect now?


James Alexander Robb: It is the same proportion as
before, one quarter of one per cent.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The elevator company is allowed to retain any overage of one quarter of one per cent, and the government takes anything above that?


James Alexander Robb: I will read the section of the Grain Act and my hon. friend can interpret

it. In the year 1919 the Canada Grain Act was amended by adding to section 95 the following subsection:
In the month of August in each year, stock shall be taken of the quantity of each grade of grain in the terminal elevators; if in any year after the crop year ending the thirty-first day of August, 1919, the total surplus of grain is found in excess of one-quarter of one per cent, of the gross amount of the grain received in the elevator during the crop year, such excess surplus shall be sold annually by the Board of Grain Commissioners and the proceeds thereof paid to the said board. Such proceeds shall be applied towards the cost of the administration of the Canada Grain Act in such manner as the Governor in Council may direct.


Henry Herbert Stevens: How long has that section been in force?


James Alexander Robb: It is included in the new
amendments.


John Livingstone Brown: It was the clause bringing
the elevators under the definition of works for the general advantage of Canada which made possible the application, I think.


George Gibson Coote: I would like to ask the
minister if any overages were collected from the public terminal elevators last year?


James Alexander Robb: The returns are not available yet.


George Gibson Coote: Could the minister tell us
whether they are collecting any overage at present?


James Alexander Robb: We have no returns from the
Board of Grain Commissioners for this year, but they are expected daily.


Henry Herbert Stevens: How about the end of
the last crop year?


James Alexander Robb: That is the year my hon.
friend asked about.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The end of the last crop
year was August 31, 1926. There should be a return showing whether there were any overages then beyond one quarter of one per cent.


James Alexander Robb: We have not yet received the returns for 1926.


George Gibson Coote: I do not know whether or
not I am correct, but I think the Grain Act was last amended in 1925, and would apply to the crop year ending August 31, 1926, and if the act did cover that year I would like to know whether the Board of Grain Commissioners collected any overages in that year. If not, has the government any policy to set forth definitely here as to whether they intend to collect that overage this year?

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James Alexander Robb: It is not a question of government policy; it is a question of the Board of Grain Commissioners administering an act of parliament, and the act provides that they shall collect these overages. As yet, however, these returns have not been received for 1926. We will probably have them available by the time we reach the main estimates, because my deputy informs me that they are expected daily.


Robert Gardiner: Can the minister tell
the committee whether it is the intention of the board to collect these overages?


James Alexander Robb: The act of parliament provides that they shall collect them.


Robert Gardiner: Has the minister any
information as to the intentions of the Board of Grain Commissioners?


James Alexander Robb: I understand that the Board
of Grain Commissioners are the servants of parliament and they must carry out the act.


Robert Gardiner: What would happen if
they did not carry out the act?


Ernest Lapointe: Put them in the tower.


Robert Gardiner: Is that to say that any public servants working under a certain act passed by this parliament can do as they like?


James Alexander Robb: No, the intention of the government is that they shall carry out the law as it stands.


Robert Gardiner: Can the minister assure the House that this law will be carried out?


James Alexander Robb: I shall direct this to the attention of my colleague to-morrow morning.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Canada Grain Act-further amount required, $350,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This is a large sum;
what is it for?


James Alexander Robb: The amount voted in the
main estimates was $1,430,000. Of this sum now asked for, $200,000 was to provide for the estimated additional requirements for 1925-26. The amount actually required, however, was only $146,993.33, this sum being the amount of unpaid accounts on hand as of March 31, 1926. The balance, $150,000, is to provide for the reorganization of the grain research laboratory and the establishment of other services in connection with the administration of the act. I think last year we made some commitments to improve the laboratory system.


John Evans: Is any provision being made to establish the relative value of some of the grades? There is great dissatisfaction throughout the country this year in relation to dried grain, the people feeling that they have not had a square deal as to the setting of the grades, particularly of grain that has come forward in a damp or tough state.


James Alexander Robb: I understand that Dr. Tory, the head of t'he research commission, is looking very closely into the matter, and the commission are getting along as fast as possible with the equipment for making the necessary chemical tests.


John Evans: Has he been authorized to
do that?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Hugh Guthrie: Has anything been done towards grading the grain as the millers do, according to the protein content rather than following the practice adopted before? I have received some letters from the west on this subject. It seems that the millers in every case grade grain according to the protein content, and it is pointed out that this would be a practical way of carrying out the grading if the government, or the grain commission, would take the necessary steps to have it done. Has anything been done, or is anything contemplated, in that direction now?


James Alexander Robb: I think this vote is partly to
provide for making an attempt along that line. Of course, as my hon. friend knows, each miller has his staff, and what they do is this: They test the wheat in different localities, and in localities where they discover that there is a larger percentage of gluten they pay a little more money for the wheat.


George Gibson Coote: Before the vote carries may I draw the attention of the minister to the advisability of conferring with this board? Possibly they would need to ask for a somewhat larger estimate next year if they desire to carry out the recommendation I wish to make. I suggest that they should make provision for enough travelling expenses so that the inspectors may be changed from one inspection district to another during the season. The greatest complaint that could be made against our inspection system at the present time is, I think, that there is nothing uniform about it. A sample of wheat which will grade No. 3 at Calgary will grade No. 2 at Winnipeg, and maybe No. 4 at Edmonton, or sometimes the reverse will be the case. At any rate there is nothing uniform about the system; it is quite easy to get two different grades on the same sample of grain. I think the best way
Supply-Miscellaneous

to correct that is to have a frequent interchange of inspectors between different offices. The only additional expense entailed would be the travelling and living expenses of the inspectors while they are being temporarily transferred from one office to another. I think we must endeavour to make this system much more uniform than it is now, and it seems to me that what I suggest is one of the best ways of getting that done. I hope the minister will see that the matter is taken up with the board so that if possible they may make provision for having some such interchange of inspectors during the next inspection season.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Halifax elevator-additional amount required, $130,000.
Henry Herbert Stevens: What is that for?


John Evans: To what extent is this
elevator being used? Has there been an increase in the quantity of wheat going through Halifax during the last year or two?


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend knows that
Halifax is largely a winter port. It was complained, when the elevator was completed, that there were only facilities for loading a vessel at one dock. This additional expenditure is to provide for carriers to three different docks so that there will not be any delay in the loading of vessels when they come to the port.


George Gibson Coote: Does the minister think that this will really help in causing the elevator to be used?


James Alexander Robb: It has been so represented to us by the railway and shipping companies.


Mr. QUINN:: Is there any likelihood of this money being spent before March 31, 1927?


James Alexander Robb: I could not say. I think a
part of the money has 'been already spent. If it is not spent we will have to re-vote it so as to continue the work which is under contract.


Thomas Cantley: How much grain has gone through the Halifax elevator up to the present time, or up to the end of the year?


James Alexander Robb: I have not that information
here.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Equipment of elevators-further amount required, $78,150.
Henry Elvins Spencer: We must have some explanation of this.


James Alexander Robb: The expenditure on the Port Arthur elevator is $29,900. Then there are these other items:
[Mr. Coote.l
Moose Jaw elevator: alterations to driers, $8,850.
Saskatoon elevator:	alterations to driers,

Calgary elevator: alterations to driers, $8,850.
Construction and installation of additional drying equipment and boiler house, $75,000.
Construction and equipment of feed-chopping and sacking plant, $30,000.
Item agreed to.
Prince Rupert elevator site, $165,000.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What is the explanation of this rather extraordinary item?


James Alexander Robb: This amount is required to pay for the site of the Prince Rupert elevator.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Three years after it was
built.


James Alexander Robb: The valuation placed on this site-part of water lot E-is $70 per foot for the 1500-foot frontage, which amounts to $105,000, and in addition to this-60,000 yards of rock filling at $1 per yard was placed on the site, thereby bringing the valuation up to $165,-
000.	The property in question belonged to the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway Company and the Grand Trunk Pacific Development Company, of which two companies the Minister of Railways and Canals is the government receiver. The properties of these companies are being administered by the Canadian National Railways as agents for the government receiver in liquidation. So we had to pay this amount into these companies to keep ourselves straight with the bond-holders of the Grand Trunk Pacific.


George Gibson Coote: What amount of grain went
through the Prince Rupert elevator last year?


James Alexander Robb: I am not sure that we have
those figures. The elevator now is under lease to the Grain Growers Grain Company.


George Gibson Coote: Who was responsible for the valuation of $70 a foot placed on this site?


James Alexander Robb: The arbitrators, I think. We had arbitrators so as to protect the government, and in order that the bond-holders of the Grand Trunk Pacific and of the Grand Trunk Pacific Development Company should not say that the government had treated them unfairly in the handling of this land. I have not the names of the arbitrators before me.


Henry Elvins Spencer: I think the minister is
in error in the statement he has made. He told the House thait the elevator was under lease to the Grain Growers Grain Company. Is it not the Alberta wheat pool?


James Alexander Robb: I think my hon. friend is
right. It is the Alberta wheat pool.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Miscellaneous
British and foreign news service-additional amount required, $16,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: This is the vote to
Reuters, is it not?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The minister voluntarily
struck out a portion of that item when the main items were under discussion. I should like to inquire in regard to the change of heart.


James Alexander Robb: -I am glad my hon. friend
brought that up. Objection was raised to the vote by hon. gentlemen opposite when it was brought forward. I said "Very well, if it is not agreed to by the House I will reduce it." I did reduce it, and the next day some of the hon. members on the front benches on the opposite side who had opposed the item came to me and wanted it restored. They recognized that it was a fair way of sending Canadian news around the world, and I think I am restoring it with the consent of both parties, who recognize the value of it for advertising purposes.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Would the minister state more in detail how this service is carried on?


James Alexander Robb: The statement I have before
me is very lengthy. Perhaps I can give it to my hon. friend in brief form, 'because I made the contract with them some years ago when we subsidized Reuters. They gather the news themselves through their representatives in Canada. That news is cabled to the head office. It is distributed sometimes by cable and sometimes by mail service to all parts of the world on general items affecting Canada, so that we feel that it gives Canada publicity in all countries where Reuters have agencies.


James Shaver Woodsworth: They have entire
discretion?


James Alexander Robb: Oh, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Adjustment of war claims-Secretary of State 

further amount required, $8,672.18.
Mr. STEVENiS: While we are on that vote will the minister tell me when we may expect some definite report about the adjustment of these war claims.
Mr. RINERET:: I think I may confidently tell the committee we may have a report next week. I will not pledge myself that it will be a complete report, but there will be some progress made.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Will that report show
claims approved for payment and' will payment be made within a reasonable time?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: The House will have to
determine what way payment is made, if any payment is made at all. But the commissioner will make his report on the great number of cases before him.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this item to pay the
salary of the commissioner?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: Yes, and travelling
expenses.


Richard Burpee Hanson: How much has it cost the country to date under the various commissioners who have been in charge of the commission? I know there have been three.


Ernest Lapointe: They are all New Brunswick men.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, and they worked very well; I am not complaining about that. But the point is, why should not the cost of the adjustment of the claims be borne out of the money in the hands of the custodians? Why should the country be put to this expense?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: There might be a balance when everything is adjusted that will go back to the treasury, and that will meet my hon. friend's demands.


Mr. CLARK:: Will the report show the names of the individual claimants whose claims have been adjusted?


Louis Édouard Fernand Rinfret: I expect so, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Mulgrave and Canso-steam service between -additional amount required, $10,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: How much are they getting now?


James Alexander Robb: The amount now is $13,500.


Richard Burpee Hanson: And this will make $23,500.


James Alexander Robb: Hugh Cann & Son of Yarmouth had the contract for this service and provided a daily service, except Sundays, between Mulgrave and Canso, and for some years Hugh Cann & Sons Limited have received a sum of $13,500 per annum for the service. Reports however were made to the effect that in order to develop the fish business at Canso it was necessary to obtain a larger vote, and also to reduce the charge from the old rate of twenty cents per hundred pounds to six cents per hundred pounds. Arrangements were then made with the Lovat Steamship company for a three months'

Supply-Miscellaneous

period at $6,000 per month. The Hugh Cann service was only a seasonal service. This is a winter service.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. John and St. Andrews, calling at intermediate points, steam service between-additional amount required, $1,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Why is the minister increasing this subvention? This is only a weekly service, is it not, and they have been getting the regular subsidy right along.


James Alexander Robb: The contract for this service has been held by the Maritime Steamship Company of Black Harbour, Nova Scotia, since 1909. The subsidy was $4,000 per annum up to March 31, 1924, when it was reduced to $3,000, and it has remained at $3,000 per annum up to the present time. The same amount was provided in the main estimates for 1926-27. The contractors represent, however, that their expenses on this service are so heavy that it is impossible for them to continue running unless their old subsidy of $4,000 per annum is restored. The company's financial statement for the year ending March 31, 1926, has been received. I do not know whether it is fair to put this on the record or not-


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would not ask that. I will take the minister's word.


James Alexander Robb: Their request is quite justified according to the statement.


Mr. SHORT:: Now that we are increasing
many of the steamship subsidies, can the minister give me any reason why the subsidy granted to the steamship line running between Bridgetown and St. John was withdrawn? That is the only subsidy of the whole lot, I believe, that has not been renewed. Is there any good reason why this particular subsidy should have been dropped from the list altogether? Will the minister give me an assurance that it will be renewed?


James Alexander Robb: I am quite willing to do my hon. friend this service, to say that if a vote is not in for that particular line, it is not his fault, because last year he represented in season and out of season that such a vote should go into the estimates. It was put in the estimates by the department, but when it came before the Treasury board it was dropped, because, I suppose, my hon. friend had not convinced us that it was necessary. I repeat, however, that if it is not in, it is not the fault of my hon. friend.


Harry Bernard Short: That is not a very satisfactory answer. I would like to know whether

or not it will be in next year. This service has been performed for the last eleven years, but for some reason unknown to me, and which I cannot find out, the subsidy was dropped.


James Alexander Robb: I shall direct the observations of my hon. friend to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. He will have to wrestle with it this year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ottawa parliament building-to improve acoustics of House of Commons, $4,000.
Thomas Cantley: What has been done in
that connection?


James Alexander Robb: This vote is to improve the acoustics of this building.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I do not notice $4,000 worth of improvement.


John Evans: I am afraid the acoustics have not been improved very much, because I have not been able to hear yet, Mr. Chairman, what item you are reading.


John Frederick Johnston: It is item 419, on page 4 of the supplementary estimates for 1926-1927- " to improve the acoustics of House of Commons, $4,000."


Hugh Guthrie: What is proposed?


James Alexander Robb: The best acoustical expert
available in the United States was called in. He has examined this chamber and has reported that there is not very much to be done; so while the item is here to be voted, it is questionable whether we shall spend the money. I will read the report of this expert for the information of hon. gentlemen:
As a result of the tests, I feel sure that the House chamber is unusual in the clarity with which speech of very moderate volume can be heard and understood in it. When the House is not in session an ordinary conversational tone is loud enough to be audible if one listens, and if one is not disturbed by extraneous sounds. It would hardly be wise, however, to count on so small a volume of sound being satisfactory when the House is in session, yet it was obvious when I was there that many of the members did not raise their voices materially above the ordinary conversational level in addressing the House. It may be an effect of the extraordinarily good acoustical qualities of the room that the members may sometimes think a low tone is sufficient, but when the press representatives and the public in the galleries are to hear, it seems to be absolutely necessary that the speaker should use as loud a tone as though he were in any other hall addressing an equal number of persons.
On your suggestion I have also considered the question of supplying the House chamber with microphones and loud speakers. On the whole my recommendation is decidedly adverse. It is evident that the formal speeches in the

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House are clearly audible to the members, the Speaker, the press, and a good proportion of the public. Interjected remarks, quick questions and answers, and the like, which seem to be not infrequent in the House procedure, are sometimes lost, but they could not be amplified by any practical arrangement of microphones. Each member would have to have one on his own desk and would have to keep it disconnected when rustling papers or making other noises, and turn it on before making remarks.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Tha-t is worth 14,000 in
itself.


Mr. RENNIE:: Would it not be possible
to get someone residing in Canada to make a report of this kind, instead of going to the United States to get someone to tell us what we ought to do?


James Alexander Robb: The chief engineer of the
Johns-Manville Company, a Canadian, was associated with this gentleman.


John Wesley Edwards: Did that
report cost $4,000?


James Alexander Robb: No. We put that amount in, expecting to do something with it, but it is questionable whether it will be needed.


John Arthur Clark: How much did this report
cost?


James Alexander Robb: We paid just the travelling
expenses of this expert and-


John Arthur Clark: No fee?


James Alexander Robb: A fee of about $100.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers-Quebec harbour -Champlain dock-further amount
required	 $ 84,400
Port Arthur and Fort William- harbour improvements - further
amount required	 35,000
Sorel-harbour improvements	 IOo'oOO
Henry Herbert Stevens: What are the needs calling for these trivial amounts to be put in the supplementaries?


Robert Gardiner: Mr. Chairman, is the
Champlain dock under the control of the harbour board?


Ernest Lapointe: Oh no; the Department of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Public Buildings, Nova Scotia-*
Halifax-H.M. gun wharf

clothing
store-fevote, $8,000	$	15,000
Halifax-repairs to buildings and wharfs at R.C.N. barracks and H.M.C. dockyard-revote, $3,700. .	25,340
Mahone Pay-public building	 10,000
32649-9J
William Gordon Ernst: Has any money been expended on Mahone Bay to date? If not will any portion of this vote be expended before March 31?


James Alexander Robb: Nothing has been spent there
yet.


William Gordon Ernst: Will anything be spent before March 31?


James Alexander Robb: It is not likely.


William Gordon Ernst: Is the minister able to give
any assurance that the item will be reinstated in the main estimates for 1927-28?


James Alexander Robb: I would not care to commit
myself as to that.


William Gordon Ernst: I ask because this is some'
thing like the Guysborough railway-it has been promised to the people of Mahone Bay for a good many years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Prince Edward Island-Kensington-public building, $12,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Has this money been
spent?


James Alexander Robb: No. That is another new
building.


John Wesley Edwards: For what
purpose?


James Alexander Robb: A post office.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the size of the place?


James Alexander Robb: The population in 1921 was
o56, and it was the same in 1926. Kensington is 39 miles from Charlottetown and 9 miles from Summerside. It contains three hotels, four churches, one bank, one butter and cheese factory and one sash and door factory. Of course the post office serves a large surrounding country.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the revenue from this office?


James Alexander Robb: About $3,000.


John Wesley Edwards: What are
the reasons why Kensington with a population of 500 and a postal revenue of about $3,000 should have $12,000 expended for a post office, when other places-for instance, Sydenham in the county of Frontenac-have waited a long time in order to get cold justice, although they have much larger populations and greater postal revenues? What particular constituency is Kensington in, and just what peculiar pull has the member got? I should like to get a little information on this in order that by copying the same sort of manoeuvre
Supply-Public TForfcg

I might secure something for my riding. I am perfectly frank; will the minister be equally frank in telling me what justification there is for spending $12,000 for a post office in a little place of 500 inhabitants, while other places from the Atlantic to the Pacific with two or three times that population are ignored? The minister says, you have to take into consideration the surrounding country. Well, invariably there is country surrounding every town and village, and Kensington with a population of 500 is not the only place so surrounded. I should like to shake hands with the member for the constituency in which Kensington is situated. What particular pull has he got on this government to be able to draw $12,000 out of the treasury for a post office in a little village of 500 population, while other parts of the country have never had a dollar spent on them since confederation and have to wait for favours until they smile in such a way as to suit hon. gentlemen opposite?


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Chairman, I sympathize
with the viewpoint of my hon. friend from Frontenac. I represent a constituency that has received no public buildings since confederation-a very good constituency too.


John Wesley Edwards: But the
difference between my hon. friend and myself is that while his constituency may be in the same position as mine in not getting anything for public buildings, yet look at what it is getting through the salary that its member is pulling down?


James Alexander Robb: Would you not like to do
that?


John Wesley Edwards: Yes, in three or four years we may change places, and then my turn will come. But that does not answer my question. Seriously, what are the grounds to justify $12,000 being spent at this particular spot in these very hard times? -because the minister always puts up that plea, lack of money.


An hon. MEMBER:: The building is
needed.


John Wesley Edwards: No, it cannot be from the standpoint of need, because if that place needs a post office, there are other places of larger population and providing much more postal revenue that have waited a longer time to get justice. I appreciate the fact that during the period of the war lots of public works had to be left in abeyance, but now the time is come when this or any government that may be in power ought to consider seriously the fact that

many places throughout the country have waited during those years of the war and do deserve some consideration for the length of time that they have waited. I want to see fair play all round. Will the minister answer my question:	What are the reasons why
Kensington is treated in this favourable manner while other places with stronger claims are passed by?


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: Mr. Chairman,
my hon. friend from Frontenac said he would like to shake hands with the member who represents the county in which Kensington is to be found. Well, if he will just come across the floor and up this aisle I shall be glad to shake with him. This vote is being considered by the House because, although the population of this little town may not be quite sufficient to meet the requirements for a public building, still what it lacks in quantity is made up in quality, and, as the Minister of Finance has said, it is the centre of a very large surrounding country and a considerable number of rural routes are served from the local post office. Moreover, there is a strong demand from the whole community for a public building. At present there is no suitable building there sufficiently large and heated for a post office; it is not in the centre of the town nor does it fill the requirements, although it is well kept and has served the community for a long time. We ask, not perhaps for a $12,000 building, but for a building which will give the town and country better accommodation than they have to-day. My hon. friend from Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) is a genial, good-natured fellow who is always willing to support anything that is fair and just, and I am surprised that he should get up now and single out this one small item for the little province of Prince Edward Island and attack it in the way he has done. I appeal to the hon. gentleman to support me in my request for improved accommodation for that little town down there and I promise him that when he comes forward with a similar request I will back him up and do my best to see that his constituency gets what it deserves.


John Wesley Edwards: It would not do for me not to express my appreciation of the hon. gentleman's promise. I sincerely appreciate it, coming as it does from a member who has been as successful as he has been in securing what he wanted for his own constituency. He says that the people there do not want a $12,000 building. Well, I feel I have a strong ally in him and I am prepared to shake lands with the hon. member on this matter and go arm in arm with him to the

Supply-Public Works
Minister of Finance with a request for half or less than half that appropriation for my constituency. I can understand why this vote is going through; I saw the reason the moment the hon. gentleman rose to his feet. You have only to take one 'look at him, a fine upstanding fellow, to realize how he put it over the Minister of Finance. There of course he has an advantage which I cannot claim:	I
have not the same engaging features nor have I the same appeal in the matter of physique. But notwithstanding these handicaps I am ready to go with the hon. gentleman and, on the strength of his promise, appeal to the Minister. I am sure my constituency would benefit one hundred per cent, and then somewhat. The hon. member says his people do not expect the whole $12,000. Why then is $12,000 being voted? On that point I want to make this observation in all seriousness. I believe that millions of dollars have been wasted in this country in putting up public buildings here and there because of the pull which this or that particular member had on the government. Because of that pull he was able to obtain an expenditure in his locality fifty or sevemty-five per cent over and above what was really needed. If a man had the necessary influence he could get a building costing $50,000 when one of $20,000 would have been more in keeping with the other buildings in his district. I do not wonder that the bon. member says they do not expect the whole of $12,000; I should not think they would in a village of 500. In my constituency there is a larger village than that whose claim is stronger, and I appeal to the minister to cut that $12,000 in two and allot half of it to Kensington to provide the kind of building they ought to have there, and give the other half to Frontenac. Both places would then have buildings in keeping with their importance.


James Alexander Robb: What do you say to cutting
them both out?


John Wesley Edwards: No; I do
not sa.y that. I want my hon. friend who is interested in this vote to understand that I am not in any way knocking the item. I do not want him to labour under any such impression. I simply say that $12,000 is more than is required for such a building as would be suitable to a village with a population of 500. For some reason or other, because of some magnetism by which fortunately his constituency benefits, a member is able to get twice as much spent as is necessary, while the money ought to be distributed around so that
other places which for many years have been waiting for some consideration might get something.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: The hon. member for
Frontenac (Mr. Edwards) suggests that some one probably had some pull to get a post office somewhere in Prince Edward Island. May I remind that hon. gentleman that somebody must have had a pull when the government of which he was a supporter was in power to have a post office in Calgary, not put up but pulled down. The post office there was pulled down and we have had to rent a building. I would suggest to the Minister of Public Works that a building be erected in my constituency in the near future to take the place of the one pulled down in 1911.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec-Baie St. Paul-site for public building, $4,000.
John Wesley Edwards: What is that for?


James Alexander Robb: It is intended for the purchase of a site for a public building in Baie St. Paul. The estimated cost of the building is $27,000. We propose at present to purchase only the site.


James Arthurs: What is the population?


James Alexander Robb: 2,600.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the building for?	\


James Alexander Robb: A post office.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chicoutimi public building-addition, $20,000.
John Wesley Edwards: What is
that for?


James Alexander Robb: This is for a two-storey stone addition to the public building at Chicoutimi. It is an extension to provide for increased accommodation for the postal and customs services. There has been a very large development up there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Drummondville-public building, addition, $13,000.
John Wesley Edwards: Is this another post office?


James Alexander Robb: No, this is a one storey addition at Drummondville, where there has also been a large development, with new factories going up.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Public Works
[Stage Direction]
Gaspe-purchase of building for postal purposes, etc., $20,000.
James Alexander Robb: That is a rented building which it is proposed to purchase; it would be cheaper to own than to rent. The present rental is $700 per annum, of which $175 is paid by the Post Office department and $525 by the Department of Public Works.


John Wesley Edwards: Is this a post office?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, and it is for the customs as well.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the assessed value of the property for which it is proposed to pay $20,000?


James Alexander Robb: Mr. John Baker of Gaspe was asked to submit a valuation in March, 1926, and he valued it at $20,000 for the building and $5,000 for the land.


John Wesley Edwards: Where is
that situated in Gaspe?


James Alexander Robb: At the harbour.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the size of the place?


James Alexander Robb: The total postal revenue for 1924-25 was $3,858.69.


John Wesley Edwards: Would the
minister give us some idea of the character of this building; is it brick, or frame, or log?


James Alexander Robb: It is a brick building, apparently.


Charles Avery Dunning: Here is a picture of it; it is a very fine building.


Robert Gardiner: Did the minister state that the income of this post office was between $3,000 and $4,000 a year?


James Alexander Robb: The gross revenue was


Robert Gardiner: Is this building used for any other purposes?


James Alexander Robb: It is used for customs and
telegraph purposes.


Robert Gardiner: What proportion of this building will be taken up by the postal service?


James Alexander Robb: The ground floor, and the next floor is the customs.


William Gordon Ernst: Did I understand the minister to say that the total rental to-day was $700 per annum?
TMr. Robb.]


James Alexander Robb: This lease must have been
made just prior to the government going out in 1921, because it is dated December 21, 1921.


William Gordon Ernst: I ask because I was unable to understand the statement of the minister that it would be cheaper to buy than to rent. At five per cent the interest on $20,000 would be approximately $1,000.


James Alexander Robb: They require larger accommodation.


Charles Avery Dunning: The whole building is not now rented.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grosse Isle quarantine station-shelter shed,
Felix Patrick Quinn: Explain.


James Alexander Robb: This is for increased accommodation at the quarantine station, which, as my bon, friend understands, serves as a quarantine station for all vessels coming up the St. Lawrence.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I notice in the estimates for Nova Scotia there is a vote of $2,500 for the Quarantine station at Halifax, for repairs and improvements. In comparison, $22,000 for a shelter shed at Grosse Isle appears to be a very large amount, because the quarantine station at Halifax is used six months a year, the same as the station at Grosse Isle.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend will realize
that at Halifax it was a repair but this is a new shed. My friend knows there is greater immigration during the summer months than during the winter months. The officers of the Department of Health advise what is required and we are doing this on the recommendation of the medical advisers of the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maisonneuve 

 public building - further amount required, $75,000.
John Wesley Edwards: I think we should have a little explanation here.


James Alexander Robb: This building which we are
purchasing for a postal station is the old Maisonneuve city hall. Maisonneuve is one of the growing parts of Montreal and is a large manufacturing centre. As my friend will recall, all these suburban parts have been taken into the city, and this building is now available.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Who represents that constituency?


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Robitaille.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
Montreal-postal station in Outremont division, $50,000.
John Wesley Edwards: Is this a
new building or an addition?


James Alexander Robb: This amount is required for
the purchase of a site and the erection of a public building there. No site has yet been decided upon. As my hon. friends know, Outremont is a large, growing part of Montreal, a residential centre, and the revenue there was over $23,000.	,


John Wesley Edwards: Does this
cover the purchase of the site and the erection of the building?


James Alexander Robb: No.


John Wesley Edwards: Has the minister any idea of how much the site will be?


James Alexander Robb: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Montreal postal station site-to cancel agreement, $5,000.
Robert Gardiner: What is the explanation for this item?


James Alexander Robb: This was a trades union organization which undertook to buy some government property. They made a deposit on account, but owing to the war they got into financial difficulties and we are now paying back the amount of their deposit and keeping the property.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. Jerome public building-alterations, etc., $13,000.
John Wesley Edwards: When an
item refers to a public building and the character of the building is not specified, are we to assume that it is always a post office?


James Alexander Robb: No.


John Wesley Edwards: If we know
that it will save time and also questions.


James Alexander Robb: Generally speaking it is a
post office that is referred to, but it may be a customs building, or a customs and post office building combined.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the nature of the building here?


James Alexander Robb: It is a combined post office
and customs building.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. Jacques l'Achigan-public building-further amount required, $5,000.
John Wesley Edwards: How much
has already been spent there?


James Alexander Robb: This amount of $5,000 is required in addition to the sum of $16,000 in the main estimates, for the construction of a public building in the town of St. Jacques, and also for the installation of the necessary fittings, lock-boxes, sidewalks and grading. The building is being erected under contract at a contract price of $15,450 on a site situated at the corner of Main street and the road leading to the factory. It is required for postal purposes, and so on.


John Wesley Edwards: The amount will be about $21,000, altogether if I heard correctly.


James Alexander Robb: The probable cost will be
about $24,000.


John Wesley Edwards: What is the population?


James Alexander Robb: The population of the village is given as 1,332 and of the parish as 1,714. The postal revenue in 1924-25 was $2,477.05.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Westmount-armoury, $6,687.85.
James Alexander Robb: That is only a payment under contract.


Robert Gardiner: This is not a new building?


James Alexander Robb: No. The contract was entered
into some years ago and we are making annual payments. We shall own the building at the end of the prescribed period.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ontario: Brant hotel, Burlington-to provide for a payment of outstanding accounts incurred by expropriation proceedings, $14,000.
John Wesley Edwards: What is this for?


James Alexander Robb: The building was formerly a
military hospital. This is to provide for the
payment of accounts in connection with expropriation proceedings.


George Septimus Rennie: I believe this building is
vacant now, what use will be made of it in the future? The former inmates have gone to Christie street hospital. What does the government propose to do with this building in order to derive some revenue from it?


James Alexander Robb: It was put up for tender and
no person tendered for it. If my hon. friend desires to purchase the property he might make a deal with the Department of Public Works.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Supply-Public Works
[Stage Direction]
Durham-public buildings, $20,000.
Mr. EDWARDS (Waterloo):: What is the population of Durham, and what revenue is derived from this office?


James Alexander Robb: The population numbers 1,640, but there is quite a thriving district surrounding it. The postal revenue is $6,308.22


Alexander McKay Edwards: My reason
for asking the question is that in the town of Hespeler, Waterloo county, the population is approximately 3,000 and the post office is in a rented building. The government has owned a site for some ten years and an amount for constructing a public building has been placed in the estimates for three or four years in succession and yet nothing has been done. I should, like to know what pull Durham has which enables it to get a vote of $20,000 for a public building when we cannot get anything for the town of Hespeler.


James Alexander Robb: What is the postal revenue
in the town of Hespeler?


Alexander McKay Edwards: It is a
manufacturing town with a population of 3,000.


James Alexander Robb: I will have the matter looked into.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
London-tractor for postal purposes, $4,500.
Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: What kind of a
tractor is that?


James Alexander Robb: An electric tractor for carrying the mail around.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ottawa-public buildings-paving roadways, $25,500.
John Wesley Edwards: On what
basis are these appropriations made for the construction of sidewalks?


Charles Avery Dunning: They are for sidewalks
around the public buildings.


John Wesley Edwards: Simply on
the grounds of the public buildings?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


John Wesley Edwards: That is to say the government owns the property.


James Alexander Robb: We have to make provision
for local improvements on streets on which the government own property.


John Wesley Edwards: Only there? Mr. ROBB:	Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Rockland-public building, $25,000.
John Wesley Edwards: What kind of building is that?


James Alexander Robb: A post office and customs
building.


James Arthurs: What is the population?


James Alexander Robb: The revenue is $2,745.84.
Rockland is a town on the Ottawa river, twenty-two miles east of Ottawa, connecting with the Canadian. National railways. The population is 3,354 and there are some very large mills down there.


Robert Gardiner: The minister said the
postal revenue was a little over $2,000?


Charles Avery Dunning: The amount he gave
was $2,745.84.


Robert Gardiner: What is the revenue
from other departments there?


James Alexander Robb: I have not got that here.


Robert Gardiner: Was the expenditure
of this amount justified in a small place of that description with such a small revenue? It seems to me the expenditure for public buildings has no relation to the income. I think the government should take that point into consideration when advancing sums of money for public buildings. This country cannot afford to spend extraordinary sums of money in places where the income is very small. On the other hand, there are places where the income is substantial, and the building appropriation is not sufficient. It does not seem to me that the matter has been given the full consideration which should be given to it, and I believe the time has arrived when a new policy should be evolved in dealing with public buildings of this description.


James Arthurs: I have in my district a
town without public buildings, and even a constituency without a public building. We have in the town I represent an annual average income of about half a million of customs for many years, a postal revenue of many thousands, and a population much greater than any of those cited here to-night, and yet no consideration is given to such cases. I think some policy should be laid down whereby the revenue and the needs of the various peoples should be considered, rather than political exigencies.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sarnia-purchase of building for armoury purposes, $24,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Is this a new expenditure? Is the government embarking on a new policy of building armouries?

Supply-Public Works


Charles Avery Dunning: Not building-buying
them.


James Alexander Robb: This is the boys' brigade hall.


James Arthurs: Has it the approbation
of the member for Southeast Grey?


Alexander McKay Edwards: Has there
been any appraisement made of that hall at Sarnia?


James Alexander Robb: It has been appraised at
830,000	and the land at $9,000, making a total of $39,000.


John Wesley Edwards: I understand the building was to be specially used for training cadets and boys.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is the boys' brigade
hall.


John Wesley Edwards: Are we to
understand that it is to be used for the purpose of installing warlike instincts into the boys?


James Alexander Robb: No,, to get them away from it.


John Wesley Edwards: What does
the minister want it for?


James Alexander Robb: For the ordinary reasons.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Toronto Postal Station "A"-mechanical equipment-further amount required, $50,000.
John Wesley Edwards: This seems
rather a large amount for so insignificant a place as Toronto.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
AVinnipeg-Fort	Osborne	barracks-new
boilers, $10,000.
Alexander McKay Edwards: WThat boilers were specified in that contract?


James Alexander Robb: I do not know that I have
the specifications-high pressure boilers, I could not tell you whose boilers.


Alexander McKay Edwards: I do not
want the particular make or type, but it was a high pressure boiler?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Wainwright

public building, $15,000.
Robert Gardiner: What is this building
at Wainwright for? Is it not in Alberta?


James Alexander Robb: This is for the erection of a
public building on the corner of Main street and Third avenue, 52 feet 6 inches by 33 feet, on concrete foundations.


Robert Gardiner: For postal purposes?


James Alexander Robb: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: What is the revenue
at that point?


Charles Avery Dunning: The revenue is $6,313.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Camrose-public building, $15,000.
Robert Gardiner: What is it for?


Charles Avery Dunning: Postal and customs.


Robert Gardiner: What is the revenue
of the postal department there?


Charles Avery Dunning: $14,000.


Robert Gardiner: Is the minister satisfied
that this building is adequate when the revenue derived from that point is taken into consideration?


James Alexander Robb: Does my hon. friend recommend any larger amount?


Robert Gardiner: I am asking why the
difference, when we take into consideration the total amount of revenue derived from these other post offices and the amount that is being voted for post office buildings at these points.


Charles Avery Dunning: The population in this
case is only 1,800.


Robert Gardiner: But the revenue, I think, is the main thing. Here is a building costing $15,000, when the revenue from that point is over $14,000. We have just passed an item for a $25,000 public building at Rockland, I believe, where the revenue was only $2,700. That merely emphasizes what I stated before, that no consideration seems to be given to the amount of revenue being derived from these post offices.


Charles Avery Dunning: The estimated cost of
this particular building is $52,000. This vote is only a beginning.


Mr. LUCAS:: The last postal return shows the revenue from the Camrose post office to be $16,500. There is also a custom house there with a revenue of over $50,000, and I might add that there is a large surrounding country to be served. It is recognized, I think, that the Camrose district is one of the premier districts of the province of Alberta. It is also recognized by the postal authorities that Camrose is due for this expenditure on a public building, and I thank the government for including it in the estimates.
Supply-Public Works


John Gordon Ross: I always thought Wainwright was in Alberta, Mr. Chairman, and I would ask that the item for a public building for Wainwright be charged up to Alberta and not to Saskatchewan.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Vancouver

Winch building-taxes, $8,901.87.
Robert Gardiner: What are these taxes
for?


James Alexander Robb: These were the taxes that had accrued from the time we took over the property up to tihe end of the taxable year. That was the bargain we had with them.


Robert Gardiner: The property is not taxable now?


James Alexander Robb: No.


Charles Avery Dunning: Only for local improvements.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Experimental farms-new buildings, $74,000.
Robert Gardiner: Where are these new
buildings located?


Charles Avery Dunning: This item covers practically every one of the farms. I will read the list if my hon. friend desires.


Robert Gardiner: If it is a long list I
do not want it Tead.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is a long list, including nearly every farm. Summarized, the amount is $65,910 for the Central experimental farm, Ottawa, and $95,900 for the branch farms.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Parrsboro-harbour	improvements-further
amount required, $6,500.
Robert Knowlton Smith: Would the
minister explain this item?


James Alexander Robb: This is for the completion of the contract.


Robert Knowlton Smith: Is this in
addition to the contract price?


Charles Avery Dunning: The amount of $6,500 is required for the following purposes:
(1)	To pay balance due Minas Basin
Dredging Co., on dredging con. *raTet	$3,434 38
(2)	In memo, of April 7, 1926, the chief engineer states that an amount of $2,000 is required to improve the approach to the new wharf and also to improve the channel and basin. The estimated cost of this work is as follows:-
1,050 cu. yds. scow measurement, Jnud, clay
and gravel at $1.50.. $1,575 00 425 cu. yds. overcast at $1.00	 425 00
2,000 00
(3)	Providing additional guard to public wharf under contract with
Mr. Thos. P. Charleson	 413 00
(4)	Replacement of beach protection 500 00
Contingencies	 152 62
Total	 $6,500 00


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Matane-in full and final settlement of the claim of H. Dussault & Co. in connection with their contract for dredging in 1923-1924, $19,025.60.
Robert Gardiner: Would the minister explain this item?


James Alexander Robb: This amount of $19,025.60 is
required to pay Horace Dussault & Company in Settlement of their claim for extra compensation due to the difficult and unforeseen nature of materials encountered when dredging under their contract in 1923-1924. The company's claim was for $33,000, but t'he district engineer has recommended a payment of $19,025.60. The company have not yet accepted that, but we are putting that amount in the estimates, 'and we will pay it to them subject to tlhedr giving the government a clearance in full settlement of their claim.


Robert Gardiner: Is there any provision
in contracts of this character that where the co-mpianiy comes up against unforeseen difficult conditions, they shall be paid a higher rate than set out in the contract?


James Alexander Robb: It is purely a matter of equity in dealing with these government contracts. I am sure if my hon. friend had a contractor doing work for him, and he considered the contractor had a fair Claim, he would deal with him equitably.


Robert Gardiner: Then there is no provision made in a contract of this description in case difficult conditions-are met with?
M'r. DUNNING:	It often turns out that
the physical conditions are different from what was expected when the contract was let. That is the chief trouble in my department. The borings disclose certain physical conditions, but when the work is started the actual conditions are found to be different. That is usually the basis of claims of this sort. They are very difficult to adjust, and considerations of equity must rule.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ontario - Bracebridge 

[DOT] breakwater
repairs	 $ 1,500
Cobourg-harbour improvements. .	. .	14,200
Collingwood-dredging	 2,500
Grand Bend-repairs to	pier	 2,500
Kagawong-wharf repairs and extension	 2,500
Kenora-wharf	 9,000
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Harbours and Rivers
Ontario-Concluded
Kingsville-repairs to piers	 4,000
Leamington-repairs to pier	 1,100
Lion's Head-dredging	 13,000
L'Orignal-contribution towards completion of shore protection	 668
Maidens Creek-wharf	 2,200
Midland-wharf and dredging-further
amount required	 10,000
Morinus-wharf replacement	 2,000
Muskoka Narrows-guide pier	 5,000
New Liskeard-wharf repairs	 1,300
Pike Creek-wharf repairs	 1,000
Point Edward-dredging-revote.. ..	30,000
Port Burwell-harbour improvements. 55,000 Port Elgin-repairs to harbour works. 4,000
Port Hope-dredging	 14,500
Port Stanley-harbour improvements
and repairs-further amount required 6,000 Rondeau-repairs	to piers-further
amount required	 1,600
Sault Ste. Marie-harbour improvements	 50,000
Wabigoon-wharf	 1,200
Mr. GOTT:: What is the nature of the
work involving an expenditure of $4,000 at Kingsville, and of $1,100 at Leamington?


Charles Avery Dunning: At Kingsville: to repair
decking and stringers on the east pier, 10,000 feet board measure, and to place 24 feet of sheet piling on a length of 200 feet of the west pier. At Leamington: repairs to decking, stringers and caps, involving replacing 8,000 feet board measure timber and the renewing of the sheet piling.


Eccles James Gott: Is there any dredging in connection with that?


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


Eccles James Gott: How is the dredging done, by
contract or by the government?


Charles Avery Dunning: Whichever is most advantageous for the work in hand.


Eccles James Gott: How is it generally done?


Charles Avery Dunning: Everywhere according to the circumstances.


Eccles James Gott: Have you any record of how
the last contract was done there?


Charles Avery Dunning: We cannot remember.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
British Columbia-Concluded
Horse Shoe bay-wharf	
Osland park-removal of boulders. . ..
Penticton-reconstruction of wharf. . .
Phipps Point, Hornby island-extension
to landing	
Port Alberni-extension to float.. ..
Port Neville-float	
Powell River-wharf improvements..
Prince Rupert-floats	
Quathiaski Cove-float	
Roberts Creek-wharf extension and
repairs.. ..'	
Snug Cove (Bowen island)

wharf
extension	
Sointula-wharf repairs	
Stewart-contribution to provincial government towards surfacing
Stewart-Hyder road	
Stewart-wharf addition	
Summerland-wharf repairs	
Tow Hill (Hi-Ellen river)-wharf.. .. Vancouver, Stanley park-foreshore
protection	
Victoria harbour-dredging	
West Bay-Gambier island-float replacement
George Gibson Coote: Where is the $100,000 to be expended on the Fraser river?


James Alexander Robb: On the Fraser river.


George Gibson Coote: The Fraser river is possibly
1,000	miles long. Possibly the minister can tell us on what part of the river the money is to be expended.


Charles Avery Dunning: From New Westminster to the mouth of the river.


George Gibson Coote: Does the government intend to dredge the Fraser river to a sufficient depth so that New Westminster may safely be used as a grain port?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is the intention.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Does that apply equally to the north arm of the Fraser river where a large proportion of the shipping is done?


Charles Avery Dunning: Just the main river at present.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
9.000
1.000 100
1,200
2.500 3,000
10,000
15,000
1,150
9.500
2.400
1,600
11,100
43,000
3,200
8,000
59,200
1,500
British	Columbia-Anderson	bay-*float	$	2,600Buckley bay-landing	
1,000Cowans cove-wharf repairs and improvements	
1,500East Arrow park-wharf repairs.. ..	1,800
False creek-dredging-further amount
required	 500
Fraser	river-improvements-further
amount required	 100,000
Fraser river-protection work at Rose-dale. the provincial government to
contribute a like amount	 3,000
Half Moon bay-wharf improvements
and repairs	 2,300
Miscellaneous-maintenance and operation of water storage dams on Ottawa river and tributaries, surveys in connection therewith, and settlement of land damages-further
amount required	$57,000
National monument on Connaught place
-further amount required	 25,000
Compassionate allowance to Phidolin Synott father of Maxime Synott who was drowned while on duty at Sum-merside, P.E.I., on September 30,
1924	 2,500
[Stage Direction]
Supply-M iscellaneous
Robert Gardiner: Will the minister explain the item of $57,000?


James Alexander Robb: That is for the maintenance of the storage dams on the Ottawa river to maintain the level of the waters during dry seasons.


Hugh Guthrie: Can the minister give us some information in regard to the next item of $25,000, further amount required for the national monument on Connaught Place: when the work will be started, when it is estimated it may be completed, and how much it wiill cost?


Charles Avery Dunning: The contract was let as a result of a world competition. The winner is now engaged on the monument in his studio at Famborough, just out of London. Ihe total cost will be in the neighbourhood of $100,000. I am informed that it will take three years to complete the work.


Hugh Guthrie: When will the work of erection be started in Ottawa?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I might say to my hon. friend that I had occasion to speak with the architect and the sculptor. The work is being executed by a family of the name of March whose members, five in number I think, have won many prizes in art competitions. They intimate that it will take three years before this monument can be completed, and that no work on Connaught Place can be done until the monument is ready to be put in place. In the meantime progress estimates have to be passed. Last summer the architects informed the government that the original sketch of the monument contemplated the figures being life size, but as it was to be placed in the open air they very strongly advised that the figures should be made heroic size instead. To do that meant a very considerable increase in the original cost but the government felt, after taking advice from expert sources, that it would be well to have the figures made heroic size, and that we could count on parliament voting the additional amount required to have the monument all that could be desired. This will probably occasion more in the way of cost and will perhaps take longer in execution.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To cover unprovided items, 1924-25, as per Auditor General's report, part A, page 2, 192425, $1,995,649.79.
James Alexander Robb: Before six o'clock I was
pointing out to my hon, friend (Mr. Stevens) that this is the usual item that comes up every year. I have a memorandum of the vote each year covering a period of years. 
This year the items included-I will not give the odd figures-are:	Customs and excise,
$273,000; pensions $716,000; post office $716,000; soldiers' civil re-establishment $234,000. In the following years the following amounts were voted as "unprovided items":
1918-	19	$1,071,403.341919-	20	
1,250,303.731920-	21	
544,009.251921-	22	
2,055,030.861922-	23	
368,783.391923-	24	
130,442.08


Hugh Guthrie: Why are these amounts
not put in the main estimates or in the supplementary estimates? I confess I do not quite understand the system, although evidently it has prevailed for some time. Why should these different amounts be required each year to balance accounts?


James Alexander Robb: I am not quite sure that I am right about this, but I understand that they have drawn upon vote No. 1 to pay for vote No. 3, and so forth, and this is >to legalize the procedure. There are overdrafts on the different departments.


Hugh Guthrie: In other words, they
spend more money than parliament authorizes.


James Alexander Robb: Under a certain vote, but the total vote is there.


Hugh Guthrie: We are voting a lump
sum to balance the account and that represents an amount of money not voted by parliament but which has been spent.


James Alexander Robb: I do not understand it that
way, but I Shall have that point carefully looked into.


Hugh Guthrie: It is a matter of curiosity on my part, but it is a matter of consequence. We are asked to vote $1,995,000 odd which is not voted in the main estimates or in the supplementary estimates; it is money which has not been voted .by parliament. Is not that correct? We are now asked to ratify the expenditure by voting it.


Sir EUGENE FISET:: No, we are simply using a balance in respect of certain items to meet overdrafts in respect of others.
Mr. GUTHRIE; It does not seem to me that we are using a balance; we are authorising an additional expenditure.
Sir EUGENE FISET. This practice was followed during your regime.


Hugh Guthrie: I have said that it has
prevailed a long time.

Questions


James Alexander Robb: There is no new expenditure
involved; we are merely asking for parliamentary sanction for an overdraft.


Hugh Guthrie: That is for an overexpenditure.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Resolutions reported.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance), moved that the House go into committee of ways and means.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
James Alexander Robb: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1926, the sum of $2,727,376.35 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
James Alexander Robb: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1927, the sum of $7,057,741.85 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolutions reported and concurred in. Mr. Robb thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 46, for granting to His Majesty certain sums of money for the public service for the fiscal years ending respectively March 31, 1926, and March 31, 1927.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first and second time, considered in committee, reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk).

Mr. NEILL:: 1.	Has the government obtained any data showing the loss of revenue at rural post offices due to tile reduction of postage on letters from three cents to two cents, and if so, will suc-h data be laid on the table of the House?
2.	Will the government give favourable consideration to an increase of the percentage allowance to rural postmasters to replace the loss of revenue to them caused by the reduction in postal rates, and will consideration be given to the fact that the commission to rural postmasters has not been increased to meet the higher cost of living since 1914?


Hon. Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Yes, but incomplete until close of complete year from 1st July, 1926.
2.	The matter is receiving consideration from both points of view.


SPRAY LAKES WATER POWER
[Stage Direction]
Hon, Mr. STEVENS:
1.	What steps, if any, have been taken by the government to deal with the Spray lakes power site in the Banff national park since the subject was last discussed in parliament?
2.	Before any such rights are granted within any national park, will the minister submit the whole subject to parliament for discussion and consideration?
3.	Has an editorial published in the Winnipeg Free Press of November 24, 1926, and entitled "A Projected Raid on the national Parks'' been brought to the attention of the government? If not, will the responsible minister of the government condescend to give consideration to the sentiments contained in the said editorial before he alienates any rights or powers within any national park?
4.	Will the government introduce at this session legislation defining and limiting the power of government by order in council to alienate any rights or extend any privileges within national parks?
Charles A. Stewart: The government
has been giving serious consideration to the many and varied representations made concerning the application to develop water power storage at Spray lakes in Rocky Mountains Park, and will introduce at the present session an amendment to the Dominion Forest Reserves and Parks Act, which will enable discussion of the Spray lakes application in the House of Commons. In the meantime no decision will be made on the application.


WEST INDIES TRADE AGREEMENT-STEAMSHIP SERVICES
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	What has been done towards the fulfilment of the terms of the West India agreement with respect to the West India steamship services?
2.	What is the present position of the eastern and western services respectively?
3.	Is the regular eastern service with Barbados, Trinidad, Demerara and the smaller islands of the eastern group now being maintained, and to what extent?
4.	What difficulties, if any, prevent an immediate acceptance of tenders for carrying out the proposed improved steamship service with the eastern group?
5.	Is it the intention of the government forthwith to invite new tenders for carrying out the steamship service with the western group on terms which will comply with the stipulations of the West India agreement, or otherwise ?
6.	Is it the intention of the government to procure modifications of the stipulations of the West India agreement regarding passenger
Questions

service, speed of steamships, or otherwise, for carrying out the proposed new steamship service with the western group?


Hon. Mr. ROBB:: 1.	The Canadian government 'has decided to entrust the fulfilment of that part of the agreement, providing for steamship services, to the Canadian National Railways management. The services on both eastern and western routes will be put into operation as nearly as possible within the time stipulated in the trade agreement.
2.	On the eastern route the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company are maintaining a monthly service with the steamers "Chaleur" and "Chigneoto", calling at all the ports formerly called at by the subsidized service and in addition calling at the island of Nevis, both north and south bound, for which they are receiving the same subsidy as before, namely, $13,102.56 per round trip. This service will be continued until the end of the fiscal year, the last trip being made from Halifax on March 25;, 1927, arriving back at St. John on May 3rd.
After the end of the present fiscal year, the temporary monthly passenger and freight service will be continued by the Canadian National Railways and will be supplemented by monthly freight sailings from Canadian Atlantic ports, thus providing fortnightly services from those ports to all islands and colonies of the eastern group. Freight sailings from St. Lawrence river ;ports during the season of navigation will be continued as heretofore.
On the western' route the Canadian Government Merchant Marine are maintaining their usual service every three weeks, with the steamers "Canadian Fisher" and "Canadian Forester", 'calling at Bermuda, the Bahamas, Jamaica and British Honduras, and this service will be continued until the new service can be put into operation.
3.	Answered by No. 2.
4.	Answered by No. 1.
5.	Answered by No. 1.
6.	No.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Mr. DENIS (St. Denis):: 1.	For how many years did the Hon. C. J. Doherty occupy the office of judge, and what amount was paid to him during that time?
2.	Why was he placed on the pension list, and what amount has been paid to him since he was placed on said pension list?

3.	What amount was paid to him as attorney in the Labrador case, of which judgment is still pending before the Privy Council?
4.	What were his expenses for professional services, travelling and otherwise, in said case?
5.	Are there any claims that have not been settled in connection with said case, and what do they amount to?
6.	What amount was paid to him during and after the war for professional services, and travelling expenses in connection with his representation in the negotiations of the Versailles treaty?
7.	What amount was paid to him as representative, and for travelling expenses at the League of Nations, at Geneva?
8.	What is the total amount which was paid by the government to the Hon. C. J. Doherty, while serving the state, either as member, judge or otherwise?


UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Mr. CHEVRIER:: 1.	The number of contributors to superannuation fund No. 1 as of date 1st December, 1926.
2.	The number of contributors to superannuation fund No. 2 as of date 1st December, 1926.
3.	The number of contributors to superannuation fund No. 5 as of date 1st December, 1926.
4.	The number of contributors to the retirement fund as of date 1st December, 1926.
5.	The	number	of	former	contributors	to
superannuation fund No. 1 who are now contributing to fund No. 5.
6.	The	number	of	former	contributors	to
superannuation fund No. 2 who are now contributing to fund No. 5.
7.	The number of former contributors to retirement fund who are now contributing to fund No. 5.
8.	The amount standing to the credit of superannuation fund No. 2 as of date 1st December, 1926.
9.	The amount standing to the credit of superannuation fund No. 5 as of date 1st December, 1926.
10.	The amount standing to the credit of the retirement fund as of date 1st December, 1926.
11.	The amount voted by parliament as contribution to fund No. 2 for fiscal year ending 31st March, 1926.
12.	The amount voted by parliament as contribution to superannuation fund No. 2 for fiscal year ending 31st March, 1927.
13.	The amount voted by parliament as contribution to superannuation fund No. 5 since that fund was established.
14.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
gratuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for the year ending 31st March, 1926.
15.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
gratuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for period from 31st March, 1926, to 1st December, 1926.
16.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
annuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for the year ending 31st March, 1926.
17.	The	total	disbursements	on	account	of
annuities from superannuation fund No. 5 for the period from the 31st March, 1926, to 1st December, 1926.

Post Office Act.
18.	The total disbursements on account of superannuation fund No. 1 for the year ending 31st March, 1926.
19.	The total disbursements from superannuation fund No. 2 for the year ending 31st March, 1926.


WATER POWER LICENSES
Mr. GEARY:: 1.	All water-power licenses now in force and issued by the Department of Railways and Canals, the statement to show in each case location of site, the amount of power leased and the rental both at present and at time of issue; also the date of each original lease and to whom the same was issued; transfers of same and the name of the present holder.
2.	All water-power licenses issued by the Department of Railways and Canals which have been cancelled or otherwise lost effect.


Hugh Guthrie: Perhaps I am at fault,
Mr. Speaker, but I intimated to one or two hon. members on this side of the House that notices of motion would not be taken up tonight, and they have now left the chamber. Since we have finished with the estimates, I would suggest that we adjourn.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 10.28 p.m.
Wednesday, February 9, 1927