1927-04-09

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. F. POULIOT (Temiscouata):: When may I expect an answer to a return ordered on March 23, respecting employees of the Intercolonial railway?


Hon. CHARLES DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals):: The matter will be looked into.


Jean-François Pouliot: I am interested also in two other questions regarding employees of the House. I should like to know when I may expect returns.	*


Charles Avery Dunning: The matter will be
brought to the attention of the Secretary of State.



PRIVILEGE-MR. CHURCH

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. CHURCH:: I wish to direct the attention of the House to a letter published in the Toronto Gldbe in which the hon. member for

Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail) criticizes the policy of the British government in China. As a member of the House I wish to protest against this. .


Mr. SPEAKER:: There is no question oi privilege.



OFFICIAL MOTOR CARS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac-Adding-ton):: A month ago I put on the order paper a question regarding the number of cars used by members of the government. I have not yet received an answer to that question. I hope I shall not be left to estimate the number by the length of time it takes to get the answer. This is a question I desire to have answered before the House prorogues.


Charles Avery Dunning: So far as the Railway department is concerned I was making inquiries only yesterday and I expect to table the return before prorogation.



DEVELOPMENT OF CARILLON POWER

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River):: Now that the smoke of battle in connection with the Georgian bay question has cleared away, may I again ask the Minister of Railways whether he is prepared to lay before the House the policy of the government with respect to the development of Carillon power?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am not prepared to make a statement of policy at the present time.


Edward Joseph Garland: Is the House to understand that there will be a renewal of the lease to the National Hydro on the 1st of May?


Charles Avery Dunning: The House cannot understand anything of the kind.



PRIVILEGE-MR. EDWARDS (FRONTENAC)

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
John Wesley Edwards: On a question of privilege I desire to refer to an editorial appearing in this morning's Journal, a paper I seldom pay any attention to. The article in question accuses me of insinuating that the government's federal district legislation proposes to beautify Kingsmere because the Prime Minister owns a summer house there. I am within the judgment of the House whether the Journal has any right to make such a charge against me.

Consideration of Private Bills
My whole argument from first to last was against the money being expended on the other side of the river, and I mentioned the owning of property over there because it had been referred to. I think I did the Prime Minister a service in bringing the matter up in the way I did. So far as the Ottawa Journal and its representations regarding this or any other matter are concerned, and as respects its allegation about insinuations, I cannot altogether forget the time when the Ottawa Journal, starting in its present quarters, depended upon the Conservative party then in power for much of the money necessary to put up that building. By entering into a contract with the government for so much floor space, the government had made the way clear for the Journal. I can understand the editorials of Grattan O'Leary and what is back of anything he writes.
SLAUGHTER OF SWINE On the Orders of the Day:


Hon. S. F. TOLMIE (Victoria, B.C.):: On leaving town last night the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Rowe) requested me to inquire of the government when he might expect an answer to an order passed by the House on March 30 for the production of certain papers relating to the slaughter of swine belonging to a man named Andrew Oberle, of Walkerton, Ontario. We are near the end of the session and I should be glad to know whether we may reasonably expect the production of these papers on Monday next.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: The Minister of Agriculture is not in his seat but I shall be glad to bring the matter to his attention. He will be able to give my hon. friend a satisfactory reply.
MR. GEORGE REID On the Orders of the Day:


Mr. GEORGE BLACK (Yukon):: An order of the House was issued on March 9, for return of correspondence and other documents relating to the appointment and the cancellation of appointments of one George Reid of Yukon as a temporary mining recorder. The return has been brought down but I would call the attention of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) to the fact that it is altogether incomplete. It is patent, from some of the correspondence on the file, that there is further correspondence still to be brought down particularly with reference to the application of Mr. Reid, forwarded to the Director of the Northwest Territories, Yukon branch, by the Gold Commissioner of Yukon under cover
of a letter dated September 25, 1926, in which he advises that Mr. Reid has completed the necessary form, and encloses two copies of the same, as requested. These applications do not appear on the file brought down. I should like to have them along with the rest of the return as soon as possible. .


Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):: I will inquire into the matter.
I am not familiar with the file, which I handed in as it was given to me.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. A. M. CARMICHAEL (Kindersley):: I find on the order paper a list of twenty-two private bills, and as we are near the end of the session I ask the Prime Minister if an opportunity will be given to-day, to take care of at least the noneontentious private bills on the order paper.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I may say to my hon.
friend that in the matter of private bill legislation I have no control over the House; it is for the members of the House to agree as to what they wish. I should like these bills to be considered in a way that will ensure their passing this session, but we cannot change the rules of the House to meet an individual situation. I have spoken two or three times about what seems to me a very great mistake, that of members holding up legislation by discussing private bills instead of letting them go to committee to be judged there, and possibly the object lesson we are getting from day to day may help to convince hon. members of the unwisdom of a course of that kind.


Hon. H. H. STEVENS (Vancouver Centre):: I should like to point out to the Prime Minister that the bill which is holding up other private bills has been to committee and reported by it. Therefore the delay is not caused by bills not going to committee.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: But that is not true of other bills that were delayed.



PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND-PORT IMPROVEMENTS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Hon. J. A. MACDONALD (Kings):: Now that the Minister of Public Works is in his seat, may I again ask a question with regard to an order for a return passed on 23rd February, which is over seven weeks ago. The
Civil Service-Salaries

return asked for was a very -simple one and it surely should have been brought down before now.


Hon. J. C. ELLIOTT (Minister of Public Works):: I may say that I made inquiries about the matter yesterday. I find the return is complete and it will be tabled today.



POSTMASTERSHIP OF OSHAWA

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. T. E. KAISER (Ontario):: The city of Oshawa has been for three years without a postmaster. Does the government intend to continue that situation, or is it disposed to have an appointment made?


Hon. P. J. VENIOT (Postmaster General):: The appointment rests with the Civil Service Commission. The matter has been held up in some way or other; I cannot for the moment give the reason why. It has not been held up since I have been Postmaster General for any reason that I know.



CIVIL SERVICE SALARIES


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JOHN EVANS (Rosetown):: I desire to acquaint the government with the fact that hon. members are getting telegrams from the civil servants all over the country, who are very disappointed at not getting the flat increase of SI 20. I should lake to know if the government are going to make a statement on the matter before parliament prorogues?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):: It is quite true, as the hon. gentleman has said, that he has been receiving telegrams on this subject; we all have. Now, the government have gone carefully and sympathetically into the question of increasing the salaries of the civil servants. If the civil service of Canada is not satisfied it seems to me it is about time for some person to say a word on behalf of the tax-payers, and to inform the hon. gentleman and others that if the civil servants are not satisfied with the increases as granted, it will be very easy for the government to withdraw the measure. I am told that yesterday in the Senate a measure of interest to the civil service, a measure to extend once more the time for them to come in under the Superannuation Act, was under consideration, and that certain changes were made at the instance of the organized civil service which may delay the measure. This morning I asked the departmental officials to prepare for me an estimate as to what the changes will cost, 
and I say now to hon. gentlemen that unless I have full details so as to advise the government with respect to the additional cost, I will not proceed with that measure this year.



THREE RIVERS HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS' ACT, AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. PIERRE J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved the second reading of Bill No. 302, to amend the Three Rivers Harbour Commissioners' Act, 1923.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
On section 1-Harbour limits defined.
Mr. CARDIN:: The object of this bill is to change the limits of the harbour at Three Rivers. When the harbour was incorporated, part of the county of Champlain, adjoining the city of Three Rivers, was included in its limits. The bill proposes to take out from the harbour property belonging to the county of Champlain.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. PIERRE J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved the second reading of Bill No. 303, to amend the Chicoutimi Harbour Commissioners' Act, 1926.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
On section 1-Harbour limits defined.
Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The object of this measure is to amend the Chicoutimi Harbour Commissioners' Act. When the harbour was incorporated, Ha Ha bay was included in its limits. The bill seeks to take this bay out of the jurisdiction of the Chicoutimi harbour commissioners.


Thomas Langton Church: Why is this measure
brought in as a public bill instead of as a private bill? Very little information has been given with respect to it. I should like to know what arrangement this harbour commission have with the government and what program it is proposed to carry out.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I do not know if I correctly understood the id'ea of the hon. gentleman, but this harbour commission has been incorporated like the others by a bill brought down by the government as a public measure. This is a public harbour, and the only way by which a change can be made in the legis-

Canada Shipping Act
lation is by the same procedure, namely, by a bill brought down by the government itself.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.
CANADA SHIPPING ACT AMENDMENT Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Marine and Fisheries) moved the second reading of Bill No. 304, to amend the Canada Shipping Act.
Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Alberni):: I
wish to speak against not what the bill contains but what it does not contain. I do not -think there is in the whole range of our statutes any -act which so decidedly requires changing and remodelling as this one. It goes back to the days when internal combustion engines were unknown. It is obsolete in every sense of the word. It has been due for repeal and reenactment any time during the last- twenty years and yet nothing has been done. As'far back as 1908 the need was so apparent and urgent that a comprehensive and, I think, in many respects a suitable bill was drafted. Perhaps on account of the war or other causes the matter was postponed; but that is nearly twenty years ago, and we are still waiting for the reenactment of reasonable legislation in regard to these very important matters.
From one end of Canada to the other the shipping interests, seamen, masters, mates and so on are vitally concerned in the changes required in this 'bill. I think in 1924 or 1925, certainly in 1925, there is recorded on Hansard a definite promise that a bill would be formulated in the recess; that it would be submitted to the shipping interests concerned for their advice and opinion, and that it would be brought forward at the next session. That was in 1925; this is 1927 and what have we here to-day? A trumpery little amendment concerning the prohibition of touts on boats or wharves connected with the ships, while interests of infinite importance require attention.
I do not blame the minister at the head of this department because this concerns matters with which he cannot be very familiar. There is in his department a great deal of deadwood which is much in need of revivifying. The settled policy, in every instance when progress or reform is suggested, appears to be, to do nothing. Last year we heard a great deal about the customs scandal; but there is such a thing as scandal which originates not in wrongdoing, but in inaction, standing still, stagnation. This matter should be attended to at an early date. It is too late now. I presume, to do anything this session,
but I take this opportunity of urging on the government that the advancement of British Columbia, which is so largely dependent upon the operation of matters connected with the seacoast, is being held back for lack of attention, not only in this 'but in several other matters as well.


Thomas Langton Church: I wish to protest against the principle of this bill. It may be all right as regards ocean navigation, but I see no necessity for this legislation in connection with ships on the inland lakes and rivers. This is simply going to create a monopoly on ships and on shore as well. I doubt very much the right of this parliament to enact legislation of this kind as affecting navigation on the great lakes. At Niagara ports where a million people a year travel backwards and forwards, they have public docks where anybody can go and solicit business. This is going to give a monopoly of the tourist business to the big corporations that control not only the vessels but hotels and every other agency in places where there is a huge United States tourist traffic. I do know that such lake ports as Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit, have no regulations similar to this. As this legislation is going to create a monopoly I wish to protest against it.


Mr. A. E. ROSS (Kingston City):: I have been given to understand that under the Canada Shipping Act there is a possibility that navigation proceeding from Ontario ports will be compelled to pay pilotage dues. This is the only part of the country in proximity to the St. Lawrence river which is compelled to do so. I understand a boat from Newfoundland or any other port can come here through the St. Lawrence without paying pilotage dues and that only boats from Ontario, whether they use pilots or not, have to pay pilotage dues. Before this bill is passed I should like to know from the minister if that is authorized by the Canada Shipping Act. In other words, is a straight discrimination against Ontario contained in the Canada Shipping Act?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: There may be something
in the observations of the hon. member for Kingston City, but it can hardly come under this bill. My hon. friend will have an opportunity of discussing the matter when we take up the departmental estimates which will be considered immediately after this. There is an item for pilotage on which the discussion can very well take place. The complaint of the hon. gentleman is not new; a similar complaint has already been made because Ontario boats navigating from the great lakes
Canada Shipping Act

down to Montreal have been forced to pay pilotage dues. That is in accordance with the act. We have what we call pilotage dues, and every vessel going down from Montreal to Quebec has to take a pilot on board or at least to pay the amount required by the act for pilots' fees. According to the law, there is compulsory payment of pilotage dues not only in Quebec but in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. It is a fact that vessels from the great lakes going down to Quebec or below have to pay pilotage dues.


Arthur Edward Ross: Mr. Speaker-


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. gentleman has already spoken. He can speak in committee on the bill.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went (into committee thereon, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
On section 1-Soliciting for hotels, lodging houses, etc., on ships or wharves, without written consent.
Arthur Edward Ross: I wish to protest against the action of the government in bringing down such an unimportant and unnecessary amendment as this when the consideration of other far more important amendments to the Canada Shipping Act has been refused. I think this bill should be sent back to the department, that such unfair discrimination should be discouraged, and that other far more necessary amendments to the act should be brought in. It is quite clear that the act needs repair work of some kind, but this little bit of an amendment, in the absence of other far more important amendments, should not be allowed to go through. I understand that the international section of the St. Lawrence is under a different system, and that if a boat comes down, she can take on a pilot or not just as she sees fit, and she is not charged for the pilot. I consider this legislation before us is very unfair, because it discriminates against navigation on the Ontario lakes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: So far as the clause we are now studying is concerned, I think it is a desirable piece of legislation. Whether my hon. friend is correct in saying that it should come under provincial legislation, I am not competent to say, but the matter dealt with here is important. However, I agree with what the hon. member for Kingston and the hon. member for Comox-Alberni have said in regard to the necessity for amendments to the Canada Shipping Act. The act is certainly in need of a complete renovation; it ought to be revised throughout, and I would

urge upon the government that during the coming recess a very careful study should be made of the act, and a bill be prepared and brought down early next session, because it will be a very, very extensive bill, and will take months of committee work to get it in proper shape, so it ought to be introduced at the earliest possible date in the session, and referred to a special committee. I do not know of many other statutes of equal importance; perhaps the Railway Act would be a parallel case. But as far as this particular measure is concerned, I have no objection to it; in fact, I must say that for some years I have recognized that this legislation is required. It is pretty late in the session to discuss whether this is constitutional or not. The provision here, I think, is a necessary one, and I would urge upon the minister to take into consideration what a number of members have said, and what I have just said, in regard to the necessity for a general revision of the act.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: I agree that there is a necessity for the passage of this bill. The practice of touting on these boats has become in the nature of a public nuisance, and it is to remedy that nuisance that this bill is introduced.
In regard to the Canada Shipping Act, which we seek to amend by this bill, I endorse what has been said by other hon. members. The act is certainly due for revision. I have heard it discussed by men who are more familiar with it than I am, and I have heard it condemned because many of its sections are said to be obsolete; many, it is charged, are beyond the jurisdiction of this parliament, others are contradictory, and there are a great many omissions which should be supplied in the act. But the question at once arises, is this the proper time for a revision? The larger question of the Merchant Shipping Act, an imperial act, has been referred to a special committee of experts, under the recommendations of the recent Imperial conference, and I doubt very much whether we could usefully revise the Canada Shipping Act until we have the results of the investigation of that committee of experts before us. Undoubtedly there are many omissions which could be supplied now, but I think the general revision of the whole act should stand until we know just where we are at in regard to our jurisdiction in the matter.
Mr- TOLMIE:	I quite agree with what
has been said concerning the necessity for a revision of the Canada Shipping Act. An act of that kind should be revised from time to time, in view of the changing conditions

Canada Shipping Act
and the rapid development of our commerce, particularly on the Pacific coast, but I think before a complete revision of the act is undertaken we should have before us, as my leader has pointed out, the results of the work of the special committee appointed under the Imperial conference to amend the Merchant Shipping Act.
With regard to this particular amendment, I want to endorse it. We are doing a tremendous tourist trade on the Pacific coast. We have excellent ships belonging to the Princess line, for instance, operated by the Canadian Pacific, and many other very good boats engaged in tourist traffic from the American boundary right up to Alaska, and calling at our Canadian ports. These ships bring tens of thousands of people during the tourist season, and it is a great nuisance to these tourists, travelling as many of them are for a rest, to be canvassed and bothered by solicitors of various kinds. In addition to that, the companies that operate these boats try to keep them nice and tidy and clean, but if solicitors are to be permitted to canvass on them, the boats will be littered up with advertising material of all kinds, and it will be impossible to keep them, in decent shape. I think that anyone wishing to solicit either on the boats or on the wharves of the shipping companies should first obtain the permission that is made necessary in this bill.


Thomas Langton Church: I contend, Mr. Speaker, that it is outside the jurisdiction of this parliament to pass this legislation except as to navigation on the gulf and ocean ports. To apply it to Ontario is a ridiculous proposition. In the Niagara district, the Muskoka district and the Brockville district, the services rendered by some of these tourist transportation organizations is of the utmost-convenience to the travelling public. Dear knows we are trying hard enough to get more American tourists, and this legislation, if applied to tourist traffic on the Ontario lakes, will greatly inconvenience the travelling public.
I would like to know who has asked for this legislation. We are charged on this side of the House with being the party of the big interests. I would ask what big interests are behind this bill? The Canada Steamship Company came to the police commissioners in the city of Toronto some time ago and asked us to pass just such a regulation as this. We did not need it in Toronto because we have an association of all the hotels and tourist bodies, working together
in harmony for the good of the travelling public, and that is a great convenience to the travelling public. I doubt very much whether this parliament has power to pass this legislation, as it is in restraint of trade. What does the Justice department say about this bill? If .they were consulted, I believe they would say that this parliament has no power to pass legislation affecting inland waters. The city of Toronto has spent millions of dollars to take over wharves, and the Toronto Terminals Company are running bus services where they cannot get a service from the National Railways, and are they to be prevented from going on the wharves which they have paid for themselves, just because the Canada Steamships Company wants this thing? Is the minister going to drive all the tourist business into the hands of the big corporations? The Canadian National Railways are doing this very same thing on their trains and boats. There is no demand for this legislation, and it would only lead to litigation, and furthermore it will do away with what is now a real convenience to the travelling public. It may be necessary .to have some regulation of this kind with regard to ocean traffic, but it is an absurdity to apply it to the tourist trade on the inland lakes, and I say that this amendment should stand over till next session.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: There is no doubt in the mind of the legal officer of the department that we have absolute jurisdiction to pass an amendment of this character. As long as Canada has full jurisdiction in regard to all navigation on inland waters as well as on the ocean, we have the power and the authority to say who shall be prevented from going on any of the ships under the control of the Canada Shipping Act.
I quite agree with hon. members who have spoken in regard to amending the act. The act is due for revision. The matter has been considered for a few years in the department, but we have had such rapid development in the last few years that it has been found that a provision that was adequate two or three years ago will not meet the present situation. New devices have been introduced in navigation.
The hon. leader of the opposition is quite right when he states that it would be useless to proceed to deal with the Canada Shipping Act when there is a commission dealing with the same matter. After the commission makes its report we will be in a better position to deal with the question, and we all agree that it is necessary to amend this very important
Canada Shipping Act

act. The proposed amendment now before the committee is of a non-contentious nature; it has been asked for by the transportation companies and it is not intended to embarrass the tourist traffic. On the contrary it will help the tourist traffic, because it will prevent certain people going on the boats and worrying the passengers in regard to hotels and lodging houses. We want the passengers on the boats to be free. If any man is allowed to go on the boat to advertise hotels he should have the consent of the proprietor of the ship on which he wishes to advertise.


Mr. McGIDBON:: I think there is a good deal in what the minister says, that passengers should not be annoyed by agents of any kind, but I think there is one feature of the situation which he has not considered. For instance, in my district one navigation concern is privately owned and another is a company, both in the tourist business. Does the minister not see that there is a possibility of the company in the navigation business and the company in the tourist business working hand in hand in dealing with the tourist traffic. They would have the power to send the traffic wherever they pleased, although they might not do it. They would be shutting out competition and working an injury in that way. Would the minister consider that aspect of the case?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I do not see any serious danger in that, because I have enough confidence in those operating the boats to feel that they will not prevent legitimate advertisement. The only thing these people have to do is to go to the office of the company and ask for a permit. If a reputable citizen goes to a company asking permission to distribute literature on the boat, I cannot imagine that the company would refuse him permission.


Mr. McGIBBON:: If the minister will assure me that they would get that right-


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am sure they would get it


Peter McGibbon: It is not in the bill.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No. If we found any discrimination by any of the companies, after the act had been in operation for a while,, I would be ready to introduce a measure to remedy it.


Thomas Langton Church: The minister has forgotten that in the larger Ontario ports the municipalities have police on tihe wharves and boats. That is the case in the Niagara and Toronto districts. Under the Canada Shipping Act and

other legislation the officer commanding the ship, the mate, or other official, is charged with keeping order on the ship. In the city of Toronto the police commissioners, at large cost to the city, have policemen on the ferryboats and other boats, and there have been no complaints in that district, as far as I know.
It may be all very well for the minister to apply this amendment to the ocean ports, but if he applies it to the inland ports he is going to affect the inland trade.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Preamble and title agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
On the Order.
Third reading of Bill No. 234, to amend The Pension Act.-The Minister of Soldiers' Civil Re-establishment.
Hugh Guthrie: The member for West Calgary (Mr. Bennett) wishes to have this item stand till Monday.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Very well.



DEPARTMENT OF MARINE AND FISHERIES

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of supply, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Department of Marine and Fisheries-Ocean and river service-maintenance and repairs to Dominion steamers and icebreakers, $1,500,000.
Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is to provide for the maintenance and operation of the vessels employed on icebreaking service in the St. Lawrence and the gulf, in construction work as required, and in the supply and maintenance of lighthouses, buoys, beacons and similar aids to navigation. All told we have twenty-seven vessels engaged in the service, nineteen on the Atlantic coast and in the St. Lawrence, four on inland waters and four on the Pacific coast.


Hugh Guthrie: I see the same amount is proposed this year as was voted last year. Was the expenditure last year up to a million and a half?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: For 1925-26 the expenditure was $1,940,000; for 1926-27 up to January 1, it was 11,310,000 odd, and if we bring the figure up to March 31 we will reach the million and a half.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
Examination of masters and mates, $20,000.
Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is to provide for the examination, and certification of masters and mates.


Henry Herbert Stevens: What about my friend Captain Eden, who gave lectures under this heading for a considerable time at night outside of his business hours and received no remuneration at all, although he put in a claim I think for a few hundred dollars. I understand that those who now give these lectures do so within their working hours.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Removal of obstructions in navigable waters, $5,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: Has any further
consideration been given to the desirability of removing derelicts in harbours? They are the property of some company or individual and there does not seem to be any way by which those who wish to do so can remove them.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: If they are an obstruction to navigation the Department of Marine and Fisheries undertakes to remove them and make a claim against the company or person responsible if there is any possibility of enforcing the claim.


Hugh Guthrie: Have you ever*succeeded in getting anything under such a claim?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Inspection of live stock shipping, $4,500.
Hugh Guthrie: Why the increase-another official?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The increase of $500 is to provide for the salary of an inspector at Halifax, due to the increased shipments through that port.


Mr. GARDINER:: Does the inspection of live stock come under the Marine and Fisheries department?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No, we inspect only the fittings of the ship.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To continue subsidies for wrecking plants-* Quebec and British Columbia, $45,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: Has any application been made for a subsidy for a wrecking plant between Montreal and lake Ontario?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Not up to the present.


Arthur Edward Ross: Would it be considered if made?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It certainly would be considered and decided according to its merits.


Hugh Guthrie: Why the $10,000 increase?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: To increase the subsidy given to the Quebec Wrecking plant?


Hugh Guthrie: Why?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We have a contract with the Quebec firm under which we contribute $25,000 to the operation of their equipment. It was represented to the department that they could not meet their obligations, in fact for several years up to 1925-26 their aggregate loss amounted to $142,298- They represented to the department that they could not carry on without an increase of $10,000. Even with the augmented subsidy we do not think they will be able to meet their operating expenses; it will simply help them to reduce the losses.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: How many ships do they operate?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: They have two powerful vessels with complete wrecking equipment.


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: Is it a private company?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


William Anderson Black: Private companies do not usually carry on under such heavy-losses. It would indicate that there is no necessity for a company of this kind, that there are no wrecks in the river to keep it busy, and that therefore this money had better be saved.	[DOT]


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The company is connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway, but is also looking after the wrecks of other companies. This is the only wrecking plant on the St. Lawrence river.


Robert Gardiner: How many wrecks were there last year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: They gave assistance in about fifteen or twenty cases.


Robert Gardiner: Do they secure any salvage money from the owners of the vessels they assist?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, and this is taken into account. At the end of the year if they have made any profit out of the salvage money-plus the subsidy they divide the profit with the department.


Robert Gardiner: Do they keep proper
accounts?

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, they have to render
accounts to the department.


Peter McGibbon: How much do they
charge per ton for wrecking services?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It depends on the nature
of the work. They cannot have a uniform rate for all cases. I am informed by the deputy that there is something in the contract in regard to it, but unfortunately I have not the document under my hand.


Mr. QUINN:: Is any subsidy paid to
wrecking plants in the maritime provinces?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No.


An hon. MEMBER:: There are no wrecks there.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Some hon. gentleman says
there are no wrecks in the maritimes. He is mistaken. During the season there are wrecks, and the wrecking companies carry on their salvage work. When not so engaged they use their plant for other purposes. They seem to be able to carry on without any subsidy, and I do not see why this company cannot do the same.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: If my memory serves me
right, in years past certain wrecking companies were subsidized in the maritime provinces, but the business was not found profitable. The difficulty in granting a subsidy to any wrecking company in the maritime provinces is that there are so many wrecking plants there that we would be flooded with requests for subsidies. Apparently there is enough work in the maritimes for several wrecking plants to operate at a profit.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Is this Quebec company engaged in wrecking work solely?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Mr. DICKIE:: In view of the immense
losses made by this company and the statement of the minister that it expects to make further losses in the future, why does the company continue in business?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The purpose of our contribution is to have the company render efficient service.


Charles Herbert Dickie: But the minister says the
company expects to make losses in the years to come.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This company is to a certain extent connected with the Canadian

Pacific Railway, and looks after their ships, and we are giving this subsidy because it goes to the assistance of the ships of other companies.


William Anderson Black: This appears to
be a subsidiary company of the Canadian Pacific Railway, which the railway company find it necessary to maintain to protect their own shipping interests. Consequently the wrecking company should be part and parcel of the Canadian Pacific Railway's operating expenses. Under these circumstances I do not know how the minister can justify the subsidy. If the company goes to the assistance of other vessels it no doubt gets well paid for its services. I would suggest to the minister the advisability of cutting out the subsidy altogether, if not this year, certainly next year.


Arthur Edward Ross: Did I understand
the minister to say that no boats needed the assistance of this wrecking company last year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No, I said fifteen or twenty boats received assistance.
Mr. RO'SS (Kingston):	Who were the
owners of the boats?
Mr. CAJt'DIN: The Cunard line steamers Aurania and Ausonaa; the Canadian Pacific Steamships steamer Montrose; the British steamer Manchester Guardian; the Canadian steamer Montrolite; the British steamer Bay-rupert; the Norwegian steamer Storfjeld; the steamship Lord Strathoona; the Canadian steamer North Shore; the Canadian steamer New York News; the British steamer, Manchester Corporation; the Greek steamer Atlas; the British steamer Hochelaga; the French steamer Leopold L.D.; the British steamer Tritonia; the Canadian steamer, Emperor of Montreal. Assistance was given to these steamers.
Mr. RO'SS (Kingston):	Was no compensation received from the owners of those steamers?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Certainly; an account is
given of the receipts that the wrecking company Obtains from these shipping companies.


Arthur Edward Ross: It would be interesting to know the amount.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Particulars are given in the accounts that the company files with the department at the end of each year to establish if there has been a profit or a loss. We are controlling all that.

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I do not agree, Mr. Chairman, with the suggestion that these subsidies should be discontinued. Certainly out on the Pacific coast where we have accidents occurring to ships at all times it is a great asset to have the equipment of one of these salvage companies always ready with steam up to proceed to the rescue of any ship in distress. Very often it means the saving of many lives and much valuable property. This service has been rendered on several occasions on the Pacific coast to the satisfaction of everybody, particularly of those people who were rescued from disaster. There seems to be a litle cloudiness about the desirability of paying a subsidy when there are no wrecks; but when business is poor is the very time that these wrecking companies need assistance.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Life saving service, including rewards for saving life, $80,000.
Mr. SHORT:: Is the minister going to reopen the life saving station at Bay View, Digby county, Nova Scotia? It has been closed since July, 1925. This station was built in 1913, and was operated constantly until 1922, when it was closed and the boat shipped over to New Brunswick, where it was retained for nearly a year. Then the station was reopened, but after the staff had been appointed the Civil Service Commission claimed they should make the appointments. They advertised for applicants and appointed a new staff. Next year the station was closed again and the boat again sent over to New Brunswick, where it was kept for some time. Eventually it was decided that the appointments did not come under the Civil Service Act, and the staff was appointed by the Marine department. For some reason that I do not know the station has been, closed ever since. This station serves very important fishing communities on the bay of Fundy. There are 250 fishing boats, perhaps more, that operate up and down the bay very nearly the year round, and the station was able to afford great protection to them. Since 1925, however, that station has given very little service indeed- in fact it has been used as a political football. I think it is time that these institutions were taken out of politics altogether and devoted to the purposes for which they were built. I impress upon the minister the necessity of opening this station and keeping it open during the fishing season and, if possible, throughout the year. There is no reason at all, why these life-saving stations should be used for political purposes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Radiotelegraph service and to provide for the construction and maintenance of radiotelegraph ship to shore stations and the general administration of the provisions of the Radio Act and regulations throughout the Dominion, $499,865.
Mr. ERNST:: Will the minister explain the exact nature of this service?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The proposed appropriation is to provide for the maintenance and repair throughout the year of government radiotelegraph stations and beaoon stations throughout Canada, and for the general administration of the radiotelegraph service, including the licensing and inspection of ship stations, private and commercial land stations, radiotelephone broadcasting and receiving stations, and the examination of commercial operators for radio certificates. In a word, it covers the whole range of our operations in radiotelegraphy. As the hon. gentleman knows the radiotelegraph system is of great value in connection with navigation. It is being developed every day, and constant requests are being made to the department by those interested in the matter to augment the service and provide better facilities. The increase in the vote will help to enable us to meet this demand for the improvement of this service and to make it as efficient as possible. The service is not only giving splendid assistance to the shipping interests but is promoting to some extent Canadian trade as well.


William Gordon Ernst: I had hoped that the increase in the vote would be devoted to measures for providing adequate protection for the fishermen who carry on their operations off the Atlantic coast. Earlier in the session I drew the attention of the minister to the fact that last year two schooners fishing out of the port of Lunenburg were wrecked on Sable island and forty-nine lives lost, owing to a storm of which they had had no warning, and which, when it broke, found them without sufficient sea room to escape. I suggested to the minister at that time that such accidents could be avoided in future if some action were taken such as broadcasting the weather reports by radiotelephone-say at nine o'clock every evening, or even twice a day-so that fishermen could pick the messages up at sea and take whatever precautions were necessary for their safety. I regret that apparently the appropriation does not contain any provision for this. I had a communication from the minister stating that apparently the service was not desired. I have taken steps to inquire into that, and I find that there is a certain amount of apathy-not opposition but apathy-amongst

Supply-Marine and Fisheries

some of the owners who objected to the additional expense. On the other hand those who are engaged in going down to the sea, that is to say fishermen and others, are looking for some such measure of protection; and I believe it is incumbent upon the government to provide adequate measures in this direction. Under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act shipowners are required to equip their vessels with life-boats, and I fail to see why means should not be adopted in this case for the protection of our fishermen so as to prevent a repetition of the disaster to which I alluded.	,


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We do broadcast storm
warnings that are of great value to the fishermen, but I think my hon. friend has in mind that the government should provide receiving sets for those men.


William Gordon Ernst: I would suggest that the
storm warnings idiould foe broadcast in plain English not in code so that the fishermen could get the messages on receiving sets.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That is what we are doing this year.


William Gordon Ernst: At what station?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Louisburg.


William Gordon Ernst: I am deeply gratified to
know that is being done.


Peter McGibbon: Could the minister state what advance has been made in this particular field in the last four or five years?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The field indicated by my hon. friend is so very extensive that I would hesitate to enter upon it at this time. The subject is a technical one, and I have no hesitation in saying that I am not very familiar with the technical developments. The service we provide has been most useful in connection with navigation and has proven an excellent medium of communication between ships at sea, to say nothing of the transmission of telegrams, and similar conveniences.


Peter McGibbon: The possibilities of this work as brought out by scientific investigation during and after the war are simply enormous. Much was learned, for example, about guiding ships into harbours through mine fields and things of that nature. What I was anxious to know was whether the government was alive to the possibilities of the application of this science in various ways, in the matter of saving life and in other directions, or whether it was standing still
fMr. Ernst.]
contented with simply broadcasting weather reports. The possibilities in connection with the efficient navigation of ships and the saving of life by a proper utilization of recent discoveries are very marked indeed. I remember some years ago sitting on a committee of this House, which had to do with scientific and industrial research, and the members of that committee were very much interested in the research work carried on by Professor McLennan, of Toronto university. The name of that distinguished gentleman, it will be remembered, was connected with various discoveries during the war which were of great .practical value, and served to demonstrate the possibilities which underlie what I might call radio science. I was wondering if the government was alive to recent discoveries, or if it was carrying out work of the routine character.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The information given to
me by the officers of the department is that in this particular line Canada leads the world. We are taking advantage of the developments that have been made, and I think we can well afford to compare the advances we have made with those of any other country. We are doing all we can to utilize any new devices brought forward, and to keep the service as efficient as possible.


Peter McGibbon: What about submarine
telephones?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I fancy that matter comes under the control Of the Department of National Defence.


Peter McGibbon: I did not anticipate that the minister would have before him to-day the information for which I asked; it would not be quite fair to expect that. But the subject is of immense interest, and there are possibilities of great importance to this country in connection with it. I would therefore ask especially that next year the minister be prepared to lay before the House a comprehensive statement of what the department has accomplished along the line I have indicated.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Certainly:


John Alexander (1874-1948) Macdonald: I presume
the minister is aware that with regard to the service under this heading Prince Edward Island is not recognized in any respect. I understand there is no service station of any kind, and of late years, as we are situated, we have to depend on navigation wholly. In recent years the potato business has grown so enormously that we must depend on steamers

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
very late in the season to get our produce shipped. Representations have been made by one of the principal insurance companies that when ships are being chartered to navigate the strait of Northumberland in the late fall, a handicap is experienced on account of there being no radio aids to navigation along this route. I have been requested to bring the matter to the attention of the minister and to urge that navigation on the coast of Prince Edward Island and through the strait of Northumberland be given some attention under this item.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I have no objection to
looking into the representations of my hon. friend.


Arthur Edward Ross: Is the station at
Barriefield in charge of the minister's department?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Arthur Edward Ross: Has the department under consideration the building of radio stations on the Hudson strait.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The program in regard to
the Hudson strait survey has not been absolutely completed and at the present time we do not know exactly what we shall be obliged to do. The observations which we expect to make during next summer will supply us with the necessary information. The matter has not been decided yet.


Arthur Edward Ross: Will the stations
be under the charge of the minister's department?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Radio service-to provide for the general improvement of reception conditions to licensed broadcast listeners, $169,475.
Mr. BROWN:: What machinery is provided by law for the collection of these license fees?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We have in all post offices in Canada licenses which are at the disposal of those who desire to buy them. The price is one dollar. Apart from the post offices any man of a certain standing may obtain from the department a certain number of licenses which he may sell, and he js entitled to retain 10 per cent of the cost of the license. If a man is in possession of a receiving set without having the necessary license he can be taken before the court and his receiving set can be confiscated.


John Livingstone Brown: The post offices in all cases?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The larger post offices and several other people in the most important centres. In fact any person who is known in any locality may make a request to be permitted to sell licenses and the request will be granted.


Hugh Guthrie: Would the minister say a word on the general item? I do not quite understand it. Does it raise the question which we have seen so much of recently in the newspapers as to our rights and those of the United States in connection with broadcasting?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We have throughout the country a certain number of inspectors and staff whose business it is to aid in the maintenance of proper conditions for receiving sets. There is a dispute between Canada and the United States in regard to the allotment of wave lengths. I understand there are at present about ninety-five different wave lengths of some importance, fifty of them capable of being used for high powered stations and forty-five for rather lower powered stations. Canada has been using exclusively six of these wave lengths on high powered stations and at the same time has been sharing with the United States eleven other wave lengths. During the last few weeks we have been trying to reach an understanding with the United States since they have organized a commission to control broadcasting as we are controlling it in Canada. Prior to not more than two months ago broadcasting in the United States was free; their government had no control at all, and there was what is called pirating of wave lengths.
Since the United States have decided to appoint a commission to control broadcasting as we are controlling it in Canada under the Department of Marine and Fisheries, we have endeavoured to reach an understanding with them and we have claimed twelve wave lengths instead of six out of the ninety-five. We have claimed that we should share fourteen of the less important wave lengths but so far the negotiations have had no satisfactory result. The United States want to discuss the question from a population point of view. They say that according to population we would not be entitled to more than the six wave lengths which we are using exclusively at the present time. The department refuses to accept that as a basis of consideration. We say that the matter should be considered from the point of view not of population but of territory. We say that with only six exclusive wave lengths for Canada we cannot take proper care of the business of the country or give satisfaction to our people.

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Peter McGibbon: Have they not stolen a number of Canadian wave lengths?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No. Pirating to a certain extent has been carried on but we have had the exclusive use of six wave lengths and a share in eleven others.


Mr. McLEAN (Melfort):: What is the approximate revenue under this item?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The total revenue from the service is $292,000.


Arthur Edward Ross: In regard to the station at Barriefield, which is doing good service in connection with lake navigation, has the department received complaints about interference with the general radio service, and if so, has the department taken any steps towards correcting it?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We are receiving complaints from practically all over Canada in regard to interference. It is very difficult to cure it. There is a certain amount Of interference which we cannot prevent. We are taking all the necessary steps to stop that interference. We have men engaged, with the necessary machines for that purpose, and we are changing portions of our equipment in certain places, at Father Point, for instance, and at Kingston, where we have been receiving complaints in regard ts the stations.


Arthur Edward Ross: Who is the official in charge?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The official in charge at
Ottawa is Commander Edwards. In addition, we have a certain number of inspectors distributed all over Canada.


Charles Herbert Dickie: What control does the
department have over these broadcasting stations? I have received a communication from Victoria signed by a number of radio listeners in, complaining about the broadcasting station in the city of Victoria. That station, I believe, broadcasts each evening, and while it is broadcasting the people in Victoria can get no radio stations in other parts of the continent. They ask that the station be moved ten miles outside the city. I had an interview this morning with Mr. Edwards, a very courteous gentleman, but he was unable to give me any promise of relief. I would like to know if there is not some way in which the department could remedy a grievance of this kind, because there are very many people in Victoria protesting against the station broadcasting each evening.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The control we have over
these stations is in the issue of the license. They cannot operate without a license from the department. We can, of course, refuse to renew a license if they are not operating the station satisfactorily. Then there is, of course, always a certain amount of interference which the experts have not yet found means of overcoming.


Charles Herbert Dickie: The minister can quite
understand that when the license was first granted, this grievance did not exist, but with the increase in the number of radio stations, what was not a grievance a few years ago is one now, and I am quite convinced that this is a matter of very much importance to the people of Victoria and its environs who are interested in radio.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I have received similar
communications from Victoria, and I intended to mention them, when my hon. friend from Nanaimo spoke. I would ask whether it has been found that the radio apparatus on the ships off the coast interferes with radio receiving in a place like Victoria.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am informed that it does interfere to a certain extent, and we are doing what we can to prevent that.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: In the event of a 'broadcasting station not complying with your regulations, what course do you adopt?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We can cancel the license.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: That is the only remedy?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Mr. BRADY:: I would like to draw to
the minister's attention the urgent need existing at Stewart, on the Portland canal, in regard to radio service. That is a very important mining district, and I would urge upon the minister the advisability of establishing a radio station at Stewart. At present the people of that great mining district have to depend entirely on American stations, particularly the one at Hyder. The minister also knows that very often throughout the year the telegraph communicaition breaks down, which leaves the people of that district entirely dependent on the American service at Hyder. I am sure that if the minister considered1 the advantages that would accrue to the mining interests as well as general business, by improved communication facilities, he would establish a radio station at this place, where existing conditions warrant its establishment. I think the time is now ripe for action in this matter, and that a radio station should be established at Stewart.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
River St. Lawrence ship channel-maintenance and operating dredging fleet, $1,522,000.
Robert Gardiner: I presume this is for
dredging between Quebec and Montreal?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: And below Quebec. This
appropriation is for the continuance of operations in connection with deepening and widening the St. Lawrence ship channel between Montreal and Father Point. As I stated last year-we are working on a program of deepening the St. Lawrence ship channel to a depth of 35 feet between Montreal and Father Point. The amount removed last year was 1,523,130 yards. We shall have to dredge for a distance of about 38 miles yet to complete the 35 foot channel between Montreal and Father Point. Of course, in some places we were not obliged to dredge, where there was already sufficient water.


Robert Gardiner: Have there been any
soundings taken to ascertain approximately how many yards will still have to be taken out?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It is estimated that about 25,000,000 yards will have to be removed in this 38 miles necessary to complete the channel.


Robert Gardiner: What does it cost per
yard?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I have not the figure here, but I think it is about fifty cents. We are spending about $1,500,000 every year on this work, and my information is that it will take eight or nine years to complete it.


Mr. McMILLAN:: What width is that
channel?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: At certain places it is
1,000 feet in width, and the narrowest part is not less than 500 feet.


Arthur Edward Ross: Do I understand
the minister to say that the narrowest part of the channel will not be less than 500 feet and that the widest part is 1,000 feet..


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Arthur Edward Ross: What is the length of the longest boat coming up the St. Lawrence to Montreal? I am asking this in relation to some statements that have been made in regard to the upper St. Lawrence.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I think it would be in
the neighbourhood of five hundred feet.


Arthur Edward Ross: And they have no
difficulty in a channel not less than five hundred feet in width.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Of course they are not as
free as they are on the sea. But with the aids to navigation which we have been providing and a good pilot on the boat, they are not experiencing difficulties. We have had no accidents in the channel.


Arthur Edward Ross: The minister will
remember the circumstances prompting these questions. Statements were made at a meeting in regard to the channel in the other end of the St. Lawrence. The minister says the length would be about five hundred feet.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I would not like to be
bound to that figure, five hundred feet, but I think the average might be that.


Mr. HANSON:: The tendency is to build
larger boats.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the effect on the level of the waters at Montreal of the deepening of the channel at lake St. Peter? As you dredge out the channel below Montreal, does it or does it not have the effect of lowering the water level at Montreal? That is a problem which the department has to consider, and I would like to know the experience of the department, because it is an important point.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Our engineer says it does
not change the level in Montreal.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I quite agree that where
there is no tide there is no rise and fall. That is only affected by the tide. Is there a rise at Montreal?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Where do you have a
rise?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Three Rivers.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the level at Three
Rivers not the controlling factor at Montreal?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It may be to a certain
extent, but it is rather a technical point.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It is an important point.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, but I have no doubt the engineers of the department have taken account of it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What is the shallowest
point between the city of Quebec and the city of Montreal, and what is the depth at that point?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It i3 thirty feet.


Richard Burpee Hanson: At what point?

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Several places, but more
particularly in the vicinity of Batiscan, if I am not mistaken.


Richard Burpee Hanson: About nine miles above
Quebec.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the channel is deepened at that point, will it not have the effect of lowering the level at Montreal?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I have to rely on the
information of the engineers, and they say no.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am glad to hear it, and
I hope it is true.


Mr. STIRLING:: Is there much difficulty in maintaining that channel, once it is dredged?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Not at all.


Arthur Edward Ross: At -what time does the department take the level of the harbours, or do they take them repeatedly?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: During the whole year we have automatic gauges in all the ports, we are taking levels almost every day, and the record is kept in the department.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the maintenance and operation of Sorel shipyard, $154,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: This is a well-known milch cow for the city of Sorel. How many employees has the minister there?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I think at the present time in the vicinity of five hundred.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are they increasing?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No, I regret to say they are not.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sorel shipyard-to provide for the reconditioning of Wharf No. 4 and for new foundations for buildings Nos. 3 and 4, $45,780.
Robert Gardiner: What improvements are contemplated by this vote? I call attention to an item in the Public Works department for Sorel public works, something like $17,000 Why should there be a separate item?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This vote provides for the establishment of the government shipyard which is being kept for the repairing of the dredges and boats of the government. It is quite independent of the operation of the port.
Item iagreed to.

Salaries and allowances to lightkeepers, $700,-
000.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Almost every year, as long as I have been a member of this House, we have had delegation after delegation of lighthouse keepers coming here asking for certain expenditures. Some of these have appeared to be very reasonable and some have appeared to be unreasonable. I wonder if the minister would make a statement as to whether they had looked into the question, say, of superannuation. I would like the committee to visualize one case. In the bay of Fundy there is a light called Gannet Rock. I have been there and any man who goes out and lives at Gannet Rock, even for the fairly comfortable salary that is paid to a man in that position, who spends his whole life there doing very useful public service, isolated almost beyond description,-because there are weeks and weeks at a time when they have no communication with the mainland at all, nine miles from Grand Manan island-deserves some consideration. It has appeared to me that these officials are very faithful public servants and some provision might be made for their superannuation.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I think provision is made for the superannuation of a certain class at least of these lightkeepers. If a lightkeeper elects to come under the Superannuation Act he can take advantage of it.


Arthur Edward Ross: What salary is paid to the lightkeeper at Knapp's Point?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I have not a list of
the eleven hundred lighthouses.


Arthur Edward Ross: What would be the average?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The salary starts at $3,240 at Cape Race for example, and goes down as low as $60.


Arthur Edward Ross: These men complain that it is almost impossible for them to live, because they get no such salary as the first amount mentioned by the minister. A very small salary is paid for taking care of a lighthouse such as this one, I have mentioned, from say April to the close of navigation. From what the lightkeeper told me I thought he had great reason for complaint. No man could live under such circumstances. In winter he is out of employment altogether.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: There are some lighthouse
keepers who receive substantial salaries in the more important places. One man gets

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
S3,240 but there are others who receive only $60, $120 and $150 per annum. Those in receipt of these very small sums do not give their whole time.


Richard Burpee Hanson: As regards the men who
receive the larger sums, is it not fair to them to say that they are obliged to pay out of these salaries one, two and sometimes even three assistants annually? It is not fair to say that any lighthouse keeper gets $3,000 for himself.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: As a matter of fact there
is only one man who receives $3,240 and he has to pay three assistants. Others hire two assistants and some only one, while a few do the work themselves.


Robert Gardiner: It seems to me that the proper thing would be for the department itself to hire the necessary assistants and pay them their remuneration direct. When it comes to superannuation the lighthouse keepers complain that they are rated on a lower scale than they should be and consequently they suffer great hardship. It would be well to have this situation remedied.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The question is worth considering. It must be remembered, however, that the lighthouse keeper ought to be in absolute control, and he would not be if his assistants were engaged and paid by the government. They might say, "We are independent of you; you have no control over us. You are only a superintendent." That would be unsatisfactory; the work could not be as efficiently done as if the lighthouse keeper were in charge.
Mr. HANS'ON:	The minister is right. At
times when political patronage is rampant, as it is in Canada now and then-


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Is my hon. friend referring
to last summer?


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am not objecting at all.
To be frank, I do not think that one party is worse than the other. But there might be a situation in which the lighthouse keeper would find himself faced with an incipient rebellion, with his assistants defying him. They might say, "We got our job from the government and we don't care for you." That would not be in the interest of efficiency.


Robert Gardiner: That argument might
apply to any other department.


Richard Burpee Hanson: It does.


Robert Gardiner: Consequently it cannot
refer to this alone.
At one o'clock the committee took recess.
The committee resumed at three o'clock.


Robert Gardiner: When the committee
rose we were discusisng the salaries of lighthouse keepers. I would suggest that the minister consider during the recess the advisability of fixing a scale of wages for the assistants of lighthouse keepers and paying the lighthouse keepers themselves a straight salary, allowing them to retain the right to complete control over their help. By that means there would be removed any doubt as to the basis on which the superannuation allowance of lighthouse keepers should be decided. I do not press the matter at the present time inasmuch as the situation is rather complicated, but I would ask the minister to. consider this suggestion in the meantime, as to the possibility of separating the salaries paid the lighthouse keepers from any remuneration paid assistants. This is necessary for the purposes of fixing the superannuation.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Salaries and allowances to lightkeepers-to reinstate William R. Wallace as Iightkeeper, Grade 2, Class 3, at Hope island, Ontario, with continuous permanent status in the said position, retroactively as of the 24th February, 1925, and he is hereby reinstated accordingly, and to provide for his salary for the current fiscal year, $1,920.
Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Where is this island?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: In Ontario. William R.
Wallace was a permanent Iightkeeper of grade 2, class 3, at Hope island, Ontario, and in 1918 was dismissed by order in council on the twenty-fourth February for reasons which at the time the department considered adequate. Later disclosures suggest the justice of reinstating him and in the meantime he has occupied a temporary position to the entire satisfaction of the department. He was dismissed on the ground of neglect of duty in leaving the station before the close of navigation, but further information supplied to the department shows that he could give a satisfactory explanation. The department feels that it is only reasonable to reinstate him.


Robert Gardiner: Who is responsible for
the charges?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No request was made for
his dismissal but the light was out and it was discovered that he had left the station before his time. The explanation fully justified this.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Where is the island?

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: la Georgian bay.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and repairs to lighthouses, $800.-
000.	I
Charles Herbert Dickie: Has the minister been
apprised of the necessity for a new lighthouse at Active pass, which is one of the busiest navigation points in British Columbia? The lighthouse is about forty years old and is altogether unsanitary. The accommodations for the lighthouse keeper and his family are not at all what they should be. Everyone in the district agrees that the light is entirely inadequate and an up-to-date house should be put up.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I shall be pleased to look into the matter and if the facts are as represented we shall do our best to meet the request.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: There is a tremendous
traffic between Vancouver and Victoria and Seattle and between Seattle and Alaska. It is one of the most important points.


Charles Herbert Dickie: I know that timbers in that lighthouse are so rotten that the structure is unsafe. I have examined it carefully during the past year, and the engineer's report will bear me out.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Construction of lights and aid to navigation, including regulation of traffic at such places as may be found necessary, $650,000.
William Gordon Ernst: Does "aids to navigation"
include the placing of buoys? What method is adopted by the department in placing buoys-is the work done by tender or is it given to some particular person?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Most of the buoys are
placed by the employees of the department, but in certain cases we call for tenders and the work is done by contract.


William Gordon Ernst: Is it the invariable custom
to ask for tenders when the department themselves do not place the buoys?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: In the case of all contracts over $200 we ask for tenders.


William Gordon Ernst: I have in mind a contract which is under $200, to be precise $150, where I believe the work could be done more advantageously by tender than is being done to-day. I do not know whether it is an isolated case. I am asking the question 
because the work is being allotted To the same man every year for the same price, and it could be done just as well by men equally competent who would do it for half the money the department is paying.


Mr. GOTT:: Has the minister at hand the cost of the construction of the Pelee passage lighthouse, a new lighthouse which was built a year ago? I do not know whether it is called Pelee light, Pelee passage, or Pelee island light. I should like to know what the cost of construction was.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Is that a new lighthouse
or an old one?


Eccles James Gott: A new one, which was completed about a year ago.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I understand it is on the
southeast shore.


Eccles James Gott: What was the cost of it?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Unfortunateiy I have not
the figures under my hand, but I shall be pleased to supply the information.


Eccles James Gott: Have you the name of the
lighthouse keeper?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No lighthouse keeper has
been appointed yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maintenance and repairs to wharves, $10,000.
John Wesley Edwards: Does this
cover the whole of these repairs?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This is to provide for
small repairs which become necessary during the year on the wharves which are under the administration of the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


John Wesley Edwards: Was anything expended last year on the building of a wharf at Simcoe island?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: These wharves are constructed by the Department of Public Works, and when they are completed they come under the Department of Marine and Fisheries for administration. The present vote is to provide for certain small repairs.


Eccles James Gott: How is it that the wharf
itself and the entrance thereto are handled by separate departments? Furthermore, does the minister not think that once a wharf is constructed the approaches thereto should be in keeping with the character of the wharf itself?

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, but any repairs to an amount over $50 are made by the Department of Public Works.


Eccles James Gott: I have in mind the port of
Kingsville. They have a very good wharf there but the entrance has practically gone to pieces, and it is up to some department to make repairs. Recently I made representations to the Minister of Public Works to cooperate with the board of trade and the town council in making repairs to the entrance of the dock and keeping that entrance in a state of repair.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The proper department to
make the representations to in that case would be the Public Works department.


William Gordon Ernst: I wish to ask one other
question. Did I understand the minister to say that once a wharf is constructed it is handed over to the control of the Department of Marine and Fisheries by the Department of Public Works?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That is the rule.


William Gordon Ernst: Is that rule always followed?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: As far as I know it is.


William Gordon Ernst: What procedure is followed
in case of the appointment of wharfingers? As a matter of fact do you appoint a wharfinger for every wharf, or just in particular cases?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: When it is necessary to
have a wharfinger he is appointed by the Department of Marine and Fisheries.


William Gordon Ernst: Would the minister tel'l me
why a wharfinger was appointed for the wharf at La Have in the county of Lunenburg? I ask the question because that particular wharf was constructed for a ferry landing and it was placed in charge of a wharfinger. That is the only instance that I know of in the county of Lunenburg, and the one instance where it should not have been done.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Fire him.


Mr. HANISON:: Ask the member for
Antigonish-Guysborough.


Mr. DUFF:: Do you want an explanation?


William Gordon Ernst: I was asking the minister.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


William Duff: Carried.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Amount required to pay pensions to pilots Joseph Lapointe, Barthelemi Lachance, Alphonse Asselin, Alzear Desrosiers, Edmond LaRo-chelle, L. E. Morin, Joseph Plante, Victor Vezina, Raymond Baquet, Alfred LaRochelle, Theophile Corriveau, Alphonse Pouliot, Treffle Delisle, Alfred Gaudreau, Adjutor Baillargeon, F. X. Demaules, Joseph Pouliot, Arthur Bail-lergeon, John I. Irvine, Camille Bernier, Joseph Eugene Lachance, Elzear Normand, Phileas Lachance, Narcisse Lavoie, L. H. Lapierre, J. T. St. Laurent, J. V. Gourdeau, Samuel Rioux Joseph LaRochelle, Arthur Koenig, J. Alphonse Lachance, Raoul Lachance, J. 0. Lachance, J. II. Talbot. Jules Asselin, J. B. Bernier, Frederick Bouffard, $11,100.
Mr.	WOODSWORTH:	Could we have
some explanation as to how this amount is divided among the various services? What amount is granted to each individual?
Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Three hundred dollars.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: A year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.
Mr.	WOODSWORTH:	After how many
years service?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: AfteT reaching the age of
seventy years.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Irrespective of the
number of years of service?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, irrespective of their
service. As a matter of fact all of them have been in the service for a long time.
Mr.	WOODSWORTH:	It seems to me
that this amount of $300 a year is very inadequate for men who have been long years in the service, especially such an arduous service as that of lighthouse keeping.


An hon. MEMBER:: This relates to pilots.
Mr.	WOODSWORTH:	In any case the
same criticism applies. We are proposing to grant old age pensions to the amount of $240, and permit an income of $125 additional, making a total Of $365 a year, or a dollar a day. It seems to me that when a man has so many years of service to his credit the Dominion government ought to be prepared to give some more adequate amount than $300 a year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fisheries-salaries and disbursements of fishery officers and guardians, fisheries patrol and fisheries protection service, $860,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: This is a large item and
I see there is a substantial increase amounting to $60,000 this year. We should have some explanation from the minister. That, however, is not the purpose for which I am addressing the committee. For a number of
Supply-Marine and Fisheries

years an effort has been made to improve the fisheries patrol service on the St. John river. Heretofore the guardians have been appointed by local patronage committees. In New Brunswick in the county of York-Sunbury we have a fish and game association which is much interested in developing the salmon fishing off what is known as Hartt's island on the St. John river a few miles above Fredericton. This spring when the question of appointing seasonal guardians was brought up, the fish and game association asked for the appointment of two men who were specially qualified for the work. I do not know what report Mr. Harrison, the inspector or whatever his position is, made in regard to the matter, but I understand that request has been turned down. What was desired was that two special men who were particularly good men should be appointed to protect this pool. The fish and game association did not ask for the appointment of guardians over the whole river, of whom there are half a dozen or more; but they desired that two men named by them should be appointed by the department for this specific purpose. It is rather a pity that their request was not given more consideration, because this is the only part of the St. John river that is open to the public for salmon fishing. All the other salmon reaches are leased. I am referring now to the Tobique river. That Ilarbt island pool a stretch of two or three miles of very good fishing, is open to the public. The pool itself, in the absence of proper protection, is poached upon illegally every week in the season. It is felt -and I am not putting this forward in any partisan spirit-that with the men Who in the past have been appointed1 guardians on that river, the pool has not received the protection which it ought to have received.
I am trying to put this forward in a very moderate way. I wish the minister would have his department communicate with the fish and game association and see if they cannot get, if not two special men, at least one special man put on as guardian of that Hartt island pool. They ask for the appointment of Roland Wheeler. During the interim last year when my hon. friend was out of office the fish and game association asked' for the appointment of this man; we had him appointed, and he gave great satisfaction to everybody but the poachers. They have got their work in again this year and this man will not be appointed unless the minister looks into the matter. He was not an appointee of mine at all although I asked for his appointment. He is the nominee of the fish and game association which I need not assure the minister

is a non-political body. In fact I think the president of the association is a supporter of the present government. I am asking in the most perfect good faith that the minister will see that at least that man is appointed as one of the guardians of the Hartt island pool which is, after all, the vital part of the whole river. I request that the minister take the matter into consideration before the season opens. I do not think the guardians have been put on yet. In fact the ice as not out yet, and as nothing will be done till June there will be ample time to deal with the matter before then. On behalf of the York-Sunbury Fish and Game Association I would request that Mr. Wheeler and Mr. Mills, the two names designated by the association, be appointed at that particular pool. I do not care about the other guardians at all; the department can appoint any others they want. This is a modest request and I ask the minister to receive it in the way it is put forward and to give it his best consideration. If he leaves the matter to his political friends they will tell him "no," because I understand they have already made the nominations. That is natural, but I am going to ask the minister this once in a limited degree to disregard political qualifications, because the matter is one of great importance.
Last year for the first time tourists began to come in and I know one man who spent $1,000 in the community. That is easy money, new-tfound wealth in the country. If we can get fifty or a hundred men coming in at different times to fish-and the waters are big enough to accommodate many rods- the result is a substantial revenue to the community. But unless there is adequate guardianship there, the fish will be gone. The danger of the situation lies in the inadequacy of the guardianship in the past and that is what we are trying to cure. I am going to ask the minister to be good enough to give the matter his personal consideration.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I certainly will.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: The fishing industry is becoming a very important one, particularly on the Pacific coast where last year we were able to get an output of about 46 per cent of all the fisheries in the Dominion of Canada. It is pleasing to note that a deputy is being appointed for the purpose of giving his sole attention to this important industry. Is it the intention of the government to create in the near future a separate portfolio of fisheries? The industry is growing rapidly and it is capable of vast development in the future. I sincerely hope the government will give this matter serious consideration.

Supply-Marine and Fisheries


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: 
Simon Fraser Tolmie: I had no thought of even suggesting to get rid of the very capable and affable minister who occupies the position of Minister of Marine and Fisheries at the present time. My object was to call attention particularly to the growing industry of fisheries and to suggest that the question of creating a portfolio of fisheries in the near future might be given consideration. If the chairman and members of the Duncan commission, after looking over the Atlantic side of Canada, thought it was necessary to suggest the appointment of a separate deputy, perhaps if they had had occasion to look into [DOT]the conditions at the Pacific coast they would have recommended a separate minister also.


Mr. MacLAREN:: The department has been doing certain work on the bay of Fundy in connection with the removal of obstructions in small streams. At the present time in some of the small rivers running into the bay of Fundy there are obstructions which prevent the salmon proceeding up the river. These small rivers are not and would not be useful for fly fishing nor for the netting of the salmon, but they would be of great value for spawning purposes. The department has been doing certain work in connection with the removal of these obstructions. It is the opinion of many people living in the district whose desire is for the preservation of the salmon and not for the purpose of sport, that the small streams should be preserved so far as possible for spawning. The preservation of the salmon has been rather remarkable. The salmon is holding its own in the bay of Fundy better, I think, than any other fish. At the same time, it is important that we
do our best to help, and here is a means of assisting the continuance of our salmon fishing. While one of the large rivers, the St. John, is the principal source of spawning and of the supply of salmon, it is highly important to have many sources, and therefore I would ask the minister to tell the committee just what is being done in the matter of removing these obstructions in some of the small rivers on the bay of Fundy.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The question of my good friend relates more particularly to the next item, which has to do with building fishways and clearing rivers, but I have no objection [DOT]to answering it under this item. I have a memorandum here as to the work that is being done in New Brunswick, as follows:
Magaguadavic river, Charlotte county-preparation of plans for a fishway over falls at south of river.
Pocologan river, Charlotte county-blasting and construction of concrete wing dams to provide a fishway over falls.
New river, Charlotte county-blasting of falls to improve passage for salmon.
Black river, St. John county-blasting of falls to improve passage for salmon.
White Marsh creek, Carleton county-examination of stream and measurements of discharge.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has the fishway on the Magaguadavic river been built?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: It ds going to be built this year.


Murray MacLaren: Is it proposed to continue that work this year?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes, certainly.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understand that tenders were called for last year for building the fishway on the Magaguadavic river, but for some reason the contract was not awarded. May I ask what the reason was?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: There was a vote, but the money was not available last year as everything had to be done under governor general's warrants.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Can the minister assure us that the work will be done this year, and I presume by tender?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the department convinced of the feasibility of a fishway there?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Harry Bernard Short: I am glad to see that there is an increase of $60,000 provided for- the salaries and disbursements of fishery officers and guardians. I think that in previous years
Supply-Marine and Fisheries

the amount provided has been too low. I am also pleased to note an increase of $186,000 under the general head of fisheries thjs year. I think the amount spent in the past has been inadequate, and I trust that when this money is being disbursed, the province of Nova Scotia will get her share, as there are places down there where guardians should be patrolling the rivers and streams as soon as the season opens. I trust that the department will see that a fair share of this appropriation ds expended in the province of Nova Scotia.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it the intention of the department to increase the number of fish guardians in the province of New Brunswick, and if so, where will the increases take place, or is this $60,000 just to provide for salary increases?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The department is considering the appointment of new guardians where, according to our information, that is warranted.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think that is all right.
Last year I tried to get an extra man appointed on a particular water, and I was informed that there was no money available. When the unforeseen arises there ought to be some little leeway in the department so that a man could be put on when required. That has not been the case in the past, and I commend the department for having shown a little foresight an this matter.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We are providing for that this year.


Peter McGibbon: Looking into this matter some years ago I found that the value of the fishing industry in Canada was about $40,000,000, but that about $10,000,000 fish oils went absolutely to waste in the offal and waste products. Has the department taken any steps to preserve to the country the vast amount that is wasted in that direction every year, amounting to nearly 25 per cent of the value of the fisheries?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am informed that there
are on both coasts at the present time about twenty reduction plants engaged in this very work.


Peter McGibbon: Private plants?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Peter McGibbon: Do they get any assistance from the government?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: No. Evidently they are
finding it profitable.


Peter McGibbon: What has been the result?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am informed that the
products this year will be worth upwards of


Peter McGibbon: I would suggest that the department might stir up a little on that question.


Murray MacLaren: The minister has a considerable number of highly trained men in his department who are engaged in scientific work and who move about the country to a greater or less extent. Now the amount of poaching, and disastrous poaching, that goes on is enormous, especially in the small streams and the spawning grounds. Sometimes it is done by professional poachers; other times by those who have lacked sufficient loyalty to sportsmanlike instincts, but the attitude of the farmers, indeed of the whole people, is not^ sufficiently antagonistic to this poaching. It is with great difficulty that poaching can be prevented simply by overseers or guardians, and I think by stirring up the conscience of the people living in the country a good deal more can be done, because they know that poaching is going on, and if there is an unfriendly attitude towards those who so offend, much good can be gained. Therefore I am suggesting to the minister that when these officials are going through the country in the execution of their duties, here and there they should have small meetings where the opportunity offers of gathering some of the natives about them, emphasizing the disastrous effects of illegal fishing, and pointing out that every man who lives in the neighbourhood can serve his own interests and those of the country by discountenancing this poaching as illegal.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I wish to ask a question
which I think might come up under this item. The Minister of Marine and Fisheries is very good-natured, and I wish to pay my tribute to him right here and now. I do not think there is a minister on the government side of the House-there could not be on this side, of course, who carries his estimates through in such an admirable manner as the Minister of Marine and Fisheries.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I thank the hon. member.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I am not looking for anything, but I wish to bring to the attention of the minister certain facts. An appointment made of inspector of fisheries in the St. Marys district in Guysborough county, Nova Scotia -George Wesley Fanning, a gentleman with

Sup-ply-Marine and Fisheries
whom I am not personally acquainted, but I have been given to understand that he has every qualification for the position. Presumably for political reasons his appointment was cancelled, and another appointment was made of a gentleman who lives ten miles from the seacoast, and who has never participated in the fishing industry. I have been given to understand that he knows absolutely nothing about it, but because of his political affiliations and representations made by certain gentlemen who conducted the campaign in the interests of the Liberal party in Anti-gonish-Guysborough, in the last election, he has been given this appointment. I wish to say seriously, not speaking from any political standpoint at all, that the fisheries of the maritime provinces and Quebec and1 British Columbia are of too vital importance to have officials appointed because they belong to one or the other side of politics. An appointment of this nature should be considered seriously. We have had a long discussion in this House over the Duncan report and maritime rights.
I consider this as a real maritime right, because the fisheries enter seriously into the life of the people of the provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. Will the minister reconsider this appointment, and if this gentleman, Mr. Fanning, who was originally appointed to the position, is the man best qualified for that position, have him reinstated as inspector for that district. It is not too much to ask. The government is pretty safe to-day and one appointment in Guysborough county would not affect them very seriously.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The appointment of such
as officer has not yet been made. The matter is still pending before the 'Civil Service Commission.


Felix Patrick Quinn: That is why I brought the
matter to the attention of the minister.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Referring to the suggestion
of my hon. friend from St. John-Albert in regard to calling together the fishermen in order to induce them to help in the protection of the fisheries, we have started that sort of campaign already. I am trying to induce the fishermen to form an association among themselves and to help protect the fisheries of the maritime provinces as well as those of other parts of Canada.


Murray MacLaren: I had in mind not only the fishermen but also the farmers living on the banks of the streams. I think it is more important to interest and get the support of the farmers in rthe district concerned.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would like to follow up
the remarks of the hon. member for St. John with reference to the district southwards on the Miramichi river. The director of fisheries will know that within the last three or four years the situation there has been in bad shape. Part of the fisheries run through my constituency and that portion of the river is pretty well taken care of, but when you get down to the settlement where the farmers are the riparian owners, they have an idea that the fishery rights are the gift of Providence and that they have the right to come there and take the fish.
I do not object to their taking an occasional salmon, but when they commence to commercialize the fisheries as they have done in Ludlow, Litchfield and Blackpool, Nova Scotia; when they fence off .the river with a steel net, make a pond and capture the fish going upstream, a very serious situation is created. A difficulty again arises as to the question of guarding. A few years ago I think the department proceeded in accordance with public opinion in this matter and placed a portion of the river under the supervision of Inspector Harrison. I am disposed to think that there is a big improvement, but the matter to which the member for St. John referred as the great difficulty is that the riparian proprietor, if I may so term him, feels that he has perhaps the property rights in the fisheries, and the result is that many of the fish are not allowed to reach the spawning ground. I hope the department will give special attention to that river this year. The possibilities from the standpoint of the tourist and the possibilities for bringing in new money through the opportunities for fly fishing on the Miramichi are almost unr limited, but I am sorry to say that that stream is going back, due to the conditions that have been referred to and that are well known in the department. I am sure Mr. Found will bear me out when I say that every effort ought to be made to improve the conditions there. The men appointed no doubt do their duty as well as they can in that district, but you will not get a local fish guardian who will be very anxious to chase his neighbour, so that some other system, and of a drastic character, has to be adopted. One year, I think at my suggestion, Mr. Harrison, the inspector, adapted the system of sending men from Oarleton county down through that district, with the result that they cleared up more than twenty huge impediments to the passage of the fish. I hope the department is alive to the situation and that
Supply-Marine and Fisheries

there will be an improvement of the conditions in the river, because it is the best open salmon river in New Brunswick. None of the pools on the Miramichi is privately owned.


Peter John Veniot: You mean the main river?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes, I mean the southwest river where the good pools are. There is splendid salmon fly-fishing there, and with proper guardianship you will have a large influx of foreign tourists, and at the same time you will provide splendid sport for the people of the province who are so fond of salmon fishing.


Alan Webster Neill: Will the minister disclose the policy of the department with regard to reviving the seaplane protection service on the Pacific coast? Members from British Columbia will recall that it was in force two years ago and did excellent service. Those who wish to break the law find it very profitable to go within the prohibited limits, and one guardian with a boat capable of a speed of only five or six miles an hour cannot possibly look after a coast line of fifty or sixty miles, ihe fishing poachers by long experience come to know a boat by the sound of its engine exhaust, and they can tell when the fishery guardian is coming an hour or an hour and a half ahead of his arrival, and this gives them plenty of time to get outside of the protected area. If the patrolman goes north they know for one or two days they are free to poach along the southern shore. Under the seaplane system the poachers would hear the whirr of the plane and within a few minutes it would come over some mountain and land m the sea a few yards ahead of them. As a consequence poaching was very largely stopped. After this system had been in operation for a year a dispute arose between the Naval department and the Marine department on the question of cost, and last year the service was in abeyance, but I remember an assurance being given to this House, in answer to an inquiry by the member for New Westminster, that the service would be reinstated in June-that was last June-under the Marine department. This was not done. We are all in hopes, especially in view of the remarks made in connection with the Imperial conference that Canada is going to take a greater interest in commercial aviation, that this greater interest will be most appropriately displayed in this branch of the service where it is so urgently needed. I believe the seaplane system would be not only more effective but more economical, for unless you [Mr. Hanson.1
put on a whole fleet of boats it is absolutely impossible to protect the mouths of these various rivers from fish poachers. It may be said that this has been done in the past, but conditions have changed in the last few years. To-day there is an enormous market for cheap, inferior fish that were practically unsaleable in former times. It is these fish that I am talking of. They are taken at the mouth of every river and creek, and there is an urgent necessity for their protection because the number of purse seines has increased as much as 400 per cent in certain districts. Therefore it becomes increasingly necessary to preserve the fish or else by and by there will be none to preserve. Some say, do away with purse seines altogether; but this is not always practicable because these fish cannot be taken in gill nets in all waters. My hon. friend from Skeena (Mr. Brady) I know will support me, as did his predecessor who was a Liberal. In his district the only remedy for poaching is for the department to again put the seaplane service in operation. I should like to know from the minister the policy of the department in this regard.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The representations of the hon. gentleman are already known in the department and the matter is at the present time under consideration. I hope a decision will be reached in the course of a few days.


Charles Herbert Dickie: What would be the estimated initial cost of operating two or three seaplanes for one season?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: From thirty to forty
thousand dollars.


Charles Herbert Dickie: I seldom disagree with the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) on fishery matters, but I think you would have very much more effective guardianship if you took half that amount of money and placed guardians at the mouths of nearly all these creeks up along the northern coast.
I can claim to be fairly familiar with the conditions there. There are days together when thick fogs and heavy storms prevail. At night time most of the poaching is done, and I do not think that such an expensive service would be justified from Alaska to the northern end of Vancouver island. With respect to the Comox-Alberni coast I am not so familiar of course as is the hon. member, but I think more effective supervision can be exercised by putting good men up there and paying them reasonable wages and supplying them with good boats. The present boats are simply a joke, and the present wages are a tragedy. What can you expect of men in

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
that northern country if you pay them only $80 or $90 a month for but a part of the year? The remuneration is not sufficient to get dependable men. If you put fifty or sixty men up there and paid them at the rate of $100 a month I think you would get much more effective supervision than by seaplanes. That is my idea and I have made many trips up and down the coast. I would ask the member for Skeena if he does not consider my proposal the most practicable.


James Charles Brady: Mr. Chairman, this is a subject of vital importance to the Skeena constituency. I am pleased indeed to see there is to be an increase in the salaries paid overseers. I place great reliance on men of integrity, tact and ability, in other words, men able to resist temptation, than on any other factor in securing effective supervision of our fishing grounds. You will do far more for the protection of your fisheries if you have at the head of the patrol system men who are immune from the many temptations that beset them in their very difficult work. I can vouch for what the hon. member (Mr. Dickie) said regarding salaries paid overseers. There was in the Naas district an overseer of considerable value to the government, a man who was faithful in every possible way. He has left that position. He was married and had two children, and he paid $40 a month in rent. I want to impress upon the minister the fact that out of a salary of $85 a month this man had to pay $4.75 towards superannuation, and that meant a good deal to him. I know that an improvement is being effected in regard to better salaries, but the importance of the patrol system on the Skeena cannot be exaggerated. For those who regard the matter lightly I would point out that this great area comprises five distinct divisions starting at Rivers inlet and going on to Smith's inlet, north to Addenbrook island to Bella Coola, Burke and Dease channels. The central division extends from Namu to Lowe inlet, and in the Skeena division there are Prince Rupert, Skeena river, Chatham sound, Naas river, Port Simpson to the boundary line.
The present patrol system in district number two is hopelessly inadequate. As an illustration of that I might refer the committee to the boats now in use. There is the Cloya, 54 feet long. She is three years old and her rate of travel is seven miles per hour. The Heron is eleven years old, is 45 horse-power, is 58 feet long and travels at eight miles per hour. The Hawk which is twenty years old is 32 feet long and has 14 horse-power. I
computed roughly the obligations in connection with these boats to enable them to cover the area properly. It would be absolutely necessary for each of them to cover 200 miles per day, and inasmuch as they have to stop vessels for examination, which takes time, it necessarily follows that they must be properly equipped in the matter of speed. I would urge the minister to place in that district up to date patrol boats capable of a speed of fifteen miles per hour. They should have accommodation for four persons with extra accommodation for the officials.
I shall say just one word now in regard to aeroplanes. Though at first it was considered that the aeroplane might have met all the exigencies which it was called upon to meet,
I do not think it does so to the extent suggested by the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill). Aeroplanes cannot operate successfully in cloudy, foggy weather, and most of the poaching is done on obscure days when the visibility is poor. A good deal of it takes place also at night. The aeroplane cannot meet these requirements completely, and though the government may consider the advisability of using them, I, still stress the importance of an efficient 'boat patrol. You want men as well as boats; the boats are essential 'but you cannot dispense with well trained men. So important is this fishing business to Canada that I am pleased to know that the government and particularly the minister is going the right way about it by providing up-to-date boats and, better still, men whose appointment will not be due to political pull. These men have charge of what may be considered' a sacred treasure and if we did nothing else than provide for this great industry men of integrity we should be doing a good deal for the Dominion. Overseers should be given good wages so as to be removed from the sphere of temptation. I urge the minister to see to it that an up-to-date patrol system is put into operation in district No. 2 and wherever our fisheries demand them. Most important of all is it to pay the men good salaries. Just imagine a man engaged on these rough waters from morning till night from one end of the week to the other receiving a salary which any girl working in the post office on stated hours is paid-$85 a month. That is what the overseers in my constituency receive. I am pleased to learn that the minister and the Marine department are alive to the importance of good overseers, and I would ask him to have guardians placed at the mouth of the more important creeks in district No. 2 and along the whole coast.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
Supply-Marine and Fisheries
Building fishways and clearing rivers, $20,000.
Felix Patrick Quinn: The remarks I made in connection with the previous item have a bearing on this. There is a fish hatchery at Bedford in Halifax county, Nova Scotia, and' in 1926 the assistant was removed for some cause or other and John A. Turner was appointed to the position. Turner was not in the position very long when he was removed to make way for his predecessor, who was reinstated. That gentleman has now 'been removed to the fishery station at St. John, New Brunswick, and the position in Bedford is vacant. I claim on behalf of John A. Turner that, having held the position in 1926, he should now be reinstated, not because of any special qualification but for the reason that he was the only applicant for the position. He has a good overseas record and, to quote from a letter I have received on his behalf:
He is the only returned soldier who has an application in and therefore the only eligible candidate under civil service regulations.
Will the minister seriously consider the matter and1 have John A. Turner reinstated?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am informed that there
is no vacancy. The mam has 'been transferred temporarily and if a vacancy should arise later the appointment will have to be made by the Civil Service Commission.


Felix Patrick Quinn: He is transferred temporarily to New Brunswick?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Felix Patrick Quinn: That means that the fish
hatchery at Bedford is undermanned. Cannot a man be appointed temporarily at Bedford for a couple of seasons?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To assist in the conservation and development of deep-sea fisheries and the demand for fish, $30,000.
Alan Webster Neill: In what way is this money
being spent?
Mr. CARID'IN:	This appropriation is to
enable such work as searching for scallop beds to be conducted. As a result of such investigations new beds have been located not only in Nova Scotia, but in New Brunswick It is thought that there are still several unused areas about the coast that produce scallops in commercial quantities. The demand for scallops is much greater than the supply. If arrangements can be effected with the provincial governments! to enable proper control of the beds to be exercised by the federal government, it is the intention to take up in as active a way as feasible the encourage-

ment of oyster culture throughout the maritime provinces. Assistance to the Canadian Fisheries Association in a campaign to increase the demand for fish is also under consideration. In 1925 we assisted in such a campaign on the basis of 50 per cent of the cost up to $10,000. The results of this campaign were so satisfactory that the association is anxious to continue it. There is no question that the consumption of fish in Canada is rapidly increasing.


Alan Webster Neill: Could not some of this
money be spent on the Pacific coast in the development of oyster culture or crab or lobster culture?


Harry Bernard Short: This has to do with scallops. My hon. friend is speaking of oysters, and oysters do not grow on the Pacific coast.


Alan Webster Neill: Don't they?


Harry Bernard Short: Not the kind we are familiar with on the Atlantic coast.


Alan Webster Neill: Have you ever tried them?


Harry Bernard Short: They are an entirely different species. The minister mentioned that this money was to be spent in the development of the scallop industry. I think that is a move in the right direction. The scallop fishery of Nova Scotia is rapidly developing, and it is getting to be an important branch of our shell fisheries. The demand for scallops is increasing all the time, and I hope the department will continue their investigations along the coast of Nova Scotia. I believe there are many places along that coast where excellent beds of scallops would be found but they are as yet undeveloped. This branch of work needs encouragement and any moneys spent upon it will, I am convinced, bring good results.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the maintenance of a fisheries intelligence bureau, $1,000.
Felix Patrick Quinn: I observe there has been
a decrease of $1,000 in. this vote as compared with last year. What is the reason of that?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: The full amount of this appropriation has not been needed; hence the reduction. Under this service the following work was carried on:
1.	The collection of monthly statistics of the sea fisheries which are summarized and given to the press each month.
2.	The publication of a quarterly bulletin containing these statistics in detail. The bulletin distributed to the trade and all directly concerned. The statistics are almost all collected by regular fishery officers in connection with their other work and at very little additional cost.

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3.	The collecting of information concerning supplies of bait, day by day, along certain stretches of the coast during the spring and summer months. The information is gathered by the officers of the department, who send it by telegram daily to certain ports where it is posted up for the information of masters of fishing vessels and those looking for bait.
I may add that last year the expenditure amounted to only $500.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I must congratulate the minister upon the economy he has displayed in the conduct of his department. That economy has not been evident in any of the other departments of government because I have observed that in the case of every other department thousands and tens of thousands- may I say hundreds of thousands?-are being wasted; money is being spent without sufficient justification for the expenditure. But when it comes to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, so vitally important to my province and the maritime provinces generally, I notice that they are very anxious to keep down the expenditure. I must congratulate the minister upon that but I wish the heads of other departments would take a leaf out of his book and practise greater economy until we have succeeded in reducing our public debt. Until that time comes let them go very carefully in the matter of increasing the amount of their estimates.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fish culture, $410,000.
Arthur Edward Ross: Would the minister explain the reason for the increase of $120,000?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: This proposed appropriation is to provide for the maintenance, repair and operation of hatcheries for the propagation of the more important anadromous and fresh water food fishes, and the construction, equipment and maintenance of the following hatcheries, which latter accounts for the increase.
New Hatcheries to be established
Lesser Slave lake.-rwhitefish hatchery.
Waterton lakes-trout hatchery.
Northern Saskatchewan-pickerel, perch and
bass.
Antigonish, Nova Scotia-Atlantic salmon and speckled trout.


Arthur Edward Ross: Has there not been a removal of some hatcheries from the control of the department?
Mr. CAR.DIN: The hatcheries of the province of Ontario were transferred to the provincial authorities.
Mr. R(^S (Kingston); I think the really important subject with which this department has to deal is the development of fish culture. Some three years ago I made some remarks on the subject and I should like to follow up those remarks, especially in view of the fact that in the Montreal Daily Star of April 11, 1925, there is an item headed as follows:
A half century of waste.
The article begins as follows:
After carrying on fish hatcheries for half a century the federal Department of Marine and Fisheries is now starting an investigation and series of experiments to find out whether after all it is worth while.
This is very much in line with the criticism which I will make and which, I hope, will be constructive and not destructive with relation to the work of the department. For years we have known in different parts of this country that fry and fingerlings have been put into the waters of rivers and lakes from which we have never seen one of these fish caught. It is quite true that in some parts the work has been successful, but I know of many places where there has been a lack o/ success and there is surely some reason for that. This subject was taken up by a section of the research council known as the biological board. These men made investigations, the result of which proved what many people had surmised, namely, that in many cases the fish culture had been successful as regards the development of fingerlings and fry; in other words that the hatchery had been successful in the development of these small fish, but that care had not been taken in the selection of waters and that consequently thousands of dollars under this vote had been absolutely wasted. This work was placed under the biological board which, I think in 1923, was put under the Department of Marine and Fisheries.
In order to show the necessity for this work I should state that during 1920 a report -had been made in regard to lobster canning along the -coast of the maritime provinces. A certain defect had arisen there in regard to lobster canning and the industry was suffering very much from it. A report was made that this was largely due to insanitary conditions. It was fairly well accepted that this might be the cause of a great deal of the trouble in this regard. However we find that in the following year there was still evidence of very unsatisfactory conditions prevailing. In fact in spite of the report of the biological board or the scientific men who were taking up this



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work, we found that the questio^ of sanitation was being absolutely neglected! The 1922 report states:
I regret very much to have to report that over 75 per cent of the lobster canners still continue to violate one or more of the fundamental laws of sanitary science.
The final clause reads:
The conditions in and arou-nd factories as recorded in my report for 1920 are almost exactly the conditions recorded in 1921.
The object of the board was to standardize this work to produce a standard system of sanitation around these canning factories. The result was that whenever an attempt was made to put this into force, the large factories would refuse to do so because the smaller ones were not doing it. Some of the smaller ones went out of business because they were forced to put some more money into their factories.
After the biological board was incorporated in the Department of Marine and Fisheries, the matter was followed up. Two stations were formed and three principles were to mark the work of those two stations. The method was to apply scientific principles to fish culture. At the head of the board there was Doctor Knight who had a great deal of experience in biological work. That gentleman is no longer on the board; he has resigned, and now I come to what I consider is the important thing. His resignation was made with the intention of securing better results in the department. I hope the minister will take the criticism which I am going to make as being of a constructive nature and that the treatment which Doctor Knight received will not be received by the gentleman who has replaced him.
The cause of Doctor Knight's resignation was distinctly want of cooperation between officials of the department and the biological board. That want of cooperation is exemplified in the class that will be held at Truro. To go back, let me say that the object of the research council is to develop a class of scientific research men in all departments in this country. The biological board set itself to the task of developing the present officials into some kind of scientific investigators, but it found that it could not go ahead owing to lack of data, and that the data could be gathered only by scientific operators or officials. The board decided to open up these classes and to bring the officials to them so that they could give them some instruction in this scientific work. It is quite true that many of these officials met in this class, but they exercised a passive resistance to the work. It
I Mr. A. E. Ross.]
may.be quite true that the work at first may be a little heavy, a little beyond their grasp, but in time, just as the prospector in our mining fields has become an expert in his work, so these officials would gradually become experienced, so far as you can make them, along scientific lines.
The point is that in this .work the department permitted a condition characterized by an absolute want of cooperation to exist, so much so that Doctor Knight felt called upon to resign. Now that this department is being reorganized and put under a new method of administration, I would like to draw the attention of the department to the fact that they must realize that advance in fish culture, in the whole fishing industry, will be developed by the study of these scientific men. That is the object of the research council, and if the department does not cooperate with it, these men, scientific men as they are, must drop out and leave. They have been given a fairly good start and I believe progress can be made with better cooperation.
I went up the Pacific coast to Alaska and I visited some twenty to twenty-two canneries on that coast. I was amazed at the degree of sanitation that prevailed around an industry of that kind, because any person who has gone into a cannery and watched the operation of bringing these fish from the sea, cleaning them and putting them into the cans, will understand that it is a difficult matter to adhere to sanitary methods. I was absolutely amazed to find that in all of these twenty-two canneries they had developed sanitary methods. In all the canneries I visited I found only one person handling the fish with bare hands. All the other employees in all these canneries were handling the fish with gloves, and were dressed in absolutely sanitary costumes. When you come to the Atlantic coast and deal with the matter of lobster curing, there is far more reason for sanitary methods there, because the anatomical features of this fish make it very difficult to prevent the tearing of the intestinal tract, causing the development of bacteria, and so on. These investigators and inspectors would find that after the lobster had1 been boiled and prepared for canning, instead of being put into the can at once, it would be left out for some hours during the day or perhaps left out over night. The fishing industry in Canada is now a large one, and it is a matter of importance to us that the canning should be done along sanitary lines and according to scientific methods. I trust now that the matter has been brought to the attention of the minister and the department, in view of the fact that

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we are going to have a new adbainistration in connection with fishery matters-I am not censuring anybody, because I know that this work must be carried on under men equipped with scientific knowledge-that we shall hear of great progress in the future. The success of this industry means a lot to Canada. If our canning is not satisfactory and our canned fish is not acceptable to the retail trade, the industry suffers because of its reputation. I would like to be assured that the department will be more active in. cooperating in these matters in the future. If some official stands in the way of cooperation, I believe that the industry as greater than the official, and he must be given to understand that in this as in all other matters science is going to play its part, and no official can stand in the way and block it.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I may say that the closest cooperation does exist at the present time between all the officers of the department and the board,


Arthur Edward Ross: I thought the minister might say that, yet here is a motion passed by the research committee in 1925. I tried to get the report for 1926, but could not. The motion reads:
That the committee believes that the cooperation set forth in resolution 3, meeting of the executive committee of the board for January 3, 1925, has not been freely given, and desires to so report to the executive committee.


Felix Patrick Quinn: May I ask what encouragement is being given by the department to the average citizen who is interested in the development of our fisheries, particularly the salmon and trout industries? I know of a man in Nova Scotia who is very much interested in the culture of salmon and trout, and who has as a result several year's work established, something along the line of hatcheries for the development of the ova and the fish fry. He appeared before the officials of the department and asked to be allowed to give a demonstration. No doubt one of the deputies will remember the case. This man's name is Parry. He was asked to take his plant over to St. John, New Brunswick, but owing to pecuniary circumstances he has not been able to follow that up. He did remove the plant over there, but was not given the opportunity of supervising the working of the plant. I would point out to the minister and his deputy that it is .in the interests of this country to encourage in every possible way men of this kind who are willing to volunteer their services and information for the development of our fisheries. I ask from the department, their earnest consideration for 32649-139J
such men as Mr. Parry, who are willing and ready to give their knowledge and their services to the department for the encouragement of the fish industry. I think there should be some financial assistance given to such men. We vote money to help the farmers and to encourage different industries throughout the country. Why should we not encourage such men as the one I have mentioned, who is interested in the development of the fisheries of this country? I would like to have a statement from the minister. Does he know of this case?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: We know of Mr. Parry,
and I am informed by the director of fisheries that he has been told that we were quite ready to provide the necessary facilities to make a trial of his method. We are doing the same thing in regard to everyone who is in a position to offer any valuable new suggestion. The department is always ready to receive new suggestions and to give them every consideration.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I quite appreciate that, but this gentleman happens to be a poor apple orchardist in Kings county, and in the last two or three years the fruit industiy has not been very successful, and he has not made much money. His time is taken up largely with the development of his orchard, and I understand that he cannot afford to lose the time and money in going over there to supervise the wrorking of his plant. I ask the minister to take that into consideration, and to see if it would not be possible to allow this gentleman something for the loss of his time when engaged on a work that is for the benefit of Canada.


Mr. BARBER:: I fully approve of this
vote. I expect that a small portion of it at least will go to the province of British Columbia. I know they are carrying on excellent work in that province. There is just one matter on which I wish to question the minister; it is a matter I have already discussed with the department, and that is the question of restocking some of the rivers on the lower mainland near the international boundary in the province of British Columbia. I believe that there is some objection on the part of the department to restocking these rivers with certain kinds of game fish, such as cut-throat and speckled trout. The department consider that they could safely, in the interest of salmon culture, restock these streams with stee'lhead, and it was indicated that it would be possible to hatch this species

Supply-Marine and Fisheries
of trout in the hatcheries in that vicinity. I would like to know if provision is being made under this vote for something along that line.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I am informed that the matter is in hand and will be provided for next year.


Harry James Barber: That is in the fall of 1927?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Marine and fisheries-salaries, $502,980.
Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: That is civil government, salaries of the employees.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
To provide for the salary of Hon, J. C. Patterson, commissioner to investigate titles of Great Britain to lands in the Arctic seas, $2,400.
Robert Gardiner: Will the minister explain this item? It is an old one.


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Yes.


Henry Herbert Stevens: He is a fine old gentle-'man.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
National Defence-cadet services, $500,000.
Miss MACPHAIL:: What reason will the
minister give for the increase in the cadet vote from $400,000 to $500,000?


Hon. J. L. RALSTON (Minister of National Defence):: The reason of the increase is that there have been actually organized, but not authorized, some forty-nine cadet units which have been functioning without any assistance from the department, and the amount of $100,000 will not very much more than take care of them. I will give the hon. member the number of these units and the provinces in which they are located.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: We shall be very glad to have that.


James Layton Ralston: Four in Alberta, four in British Columbia, two in Manitoba, one in New Brunswick, five in Nova Scotia, fifteen in Ontario, sixteen in Quebec and two in Saskatchewan.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I understand they are having province-wide shooting contests. Someone was telling me that where one boy won a contest he was chosen to compete against a boy from another town, and finally it came to be a province-wide contest. What does the minister know about these contests?
]Mr. ' Barber.]


James Layton Ralston: There is a contest in which these teams participate. Scores are kept, and the contest is for a trophy presented by His Majesty. The South African boys won the contest for the last two years, and I think the Canadian boys were second.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: I have always been opposed to the military authorities having any influence on the educational system of the different provinces. Other Dominion departments do not interfere with the matter of education in the provinces. The provinces themselves are supposed to control education, and I am therefore opposed to the increase of $100,000 in the cadet vote, which increase is evidently due to the number of units that are being asked for. I believe cadet training is military training. It is supervised by the Department of National Defence and is paid for by that department. It certainly was the idea of the founder, Sir Frederick Borden, to build up a citizen soldiery. Up till now, as I said a moment ago, the vote has been $400,000. To-day $100,000 is to be added, and the total of $500,000 I believe will be supplemented by the Strath-cona trust fund. Possibly the minister could tell us what will be contributed by that trust fund.


James Layton Ralston: The Strathcona trust fund is $500,000, the interest on which is available for the giving of prizes to cadets in the various provinces. The money is distributed on the basis of the school population.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: In its issue of February 24, 1927, the Ottawa Journal very clearly pointed out that cadet training is military in character. It said:
If Agnes Maephail M.P., doesn't understand the purpose of high school cadets, and the need of men of courage who can shoot straight, the white women in Shanghai do.
I thank the Journal for that item. I think the newspaper is right and that cadet training is military training. I have always maintained this because I cannot imagine the Department of National Defence asking for a vote of half a million dollars and going to the trouble of having provincial contests, training officers, and providing uniforms and arms unless the organization was entirely military in character.


Felix Patrick Quinn: To defend the women of Canada and every other country.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: That is an old joke. Nobody believes that any more.


Felix Patrick Quinn: It is no joke, it is an absolute fact.

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Agnes Campbell Macphail: The purpose of cadets, then, is to produce men who can shoot straight; or to state it more brutally, to teach the boys of Canada to be "killers of men." I think anyone who has watched cadets training before these buildings could hardly deny the fact that cadet training is military training. Every time the militia troops parade, to receive military visitors or at military funerals and displays, the cadets take part, clearly identifying themselves with the military machine. Military men train them. The Department of National Defence pays the bill. We can safely conclude that cadet training is military training.
The Teachers' Journal in an issue of a few years ago told of cadet reviews in military barracks in Winnipeg at which winning teams of school cadets took 28 to 34 seconds respectively to bring machine guns into action. The same journal states that teachers in military district No. 10 would get free transportation and subsistence while taking the cadet officers' training course in Tuxedo barracks, Winnipeg. Two years ago the Minister of National Defence assured us it was true that the instructor of cadets received two dollars per head for each cadet up to fifty, and one dollar per head for each cadet over that number. It is easy to see how the larger salary paid the instructor will make him a good recruiting officer, and how a boycott against boys not in the corps can be effectively used, and I believe is used, to swell the number of cadets.
There are many people whose boys are taking cadet training who say:	It's just
physical training. This, I believe, is an error, and if to-day I can but establish in the minds of even some Canadian parents that cadet training is not physical but military training, I shall think it worth while to make this effort. The development of a healthy body, if considered at all, is considered only as a means to an end in military training, not as an end in itself. The aim is to make soldiers out of boys. Men who have specialized in physical training affirm that military drill is not good physical training. Dudley A. Sargent, physical instructor of Harvard, physical instructor and medical doctor, -has said:
Taking the most favourable view possible of military drill as a physical exercise, we are led to conclude that its strained positions and closely localized movements do not afford the essential requisites for developing the muscles and improving respiration and circulation, thereby improving the general health and condition of the system.
Let me quote now from an extract taken from the Boston Medical and Surgical Journal:
This defect, we are pleased to state, is recognized by the great military nations of Europe, and measures are taken to give all the recruits from three to twelve months gymnastic training to develop them as men before they are expected to conform to the requirements of the soldier.
I could quote many other authorities to the same effect, but I will give only one more. Mr. Claxton, former United States Commissioner of Education, said:
All schools should provide such means of physical culture through outdoor games and exercises as will result in the best possible control of the body and all its members. I do not believe that military drill in our public schools is the best means to this end and I feel quite certain that rifle practice in the schools is undesirable. There is so much else that is better for all purposes that can be provided at much less cost.	,
During the war "setting up" exercises were freely used to counteract the bad results of military drill. I believe all military schools employ physical training in order to keep their men fit. In games, in the gymnasium and on the track boys and girls dress for vigorous exercise. They aim, one might say, to get up a sweat; but cadets go out in stiff-looking, warm clothing and carry heavy guns, and they have all the appearance of trying to keep cool. I believe that our youth, both" boys and girls, need physical training, but that training should be of the kind that is pleasing to them. To be good physical training it should be something which in itself is so pleasing that those engaged in it become intensely interested. Let me quote John Langdon-Davies of England on this point. In his book, A Public School in War Time, I find the following at page nine:
Physical training which is to form character must appeal to the child as a pleasure. A pleasant thing is one which appeals to healthy instincts, and this can never be the case of routine drill. This last has to rely on something else than healthy pleasure for its incentives, thus proving itself to be the bending of human nature out of its natural course for the sake of an external object, and is therefore the antithesis of education.
I should like to make it clear that it is not the sum of money involved that I am objecting to. I would favour a sum exceeding the amount now in the estimates, to be paid by the Department of Health to the Department of Education in the various provinces for them to use for physical training, but not for military training. I think we could safely model our physical training on

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the Swedish system. We should use the beauty of colour, music and form in training youth physically, but all military forms should be eliminated.
We know Sweden leads the world1 in physical training. As a matter of fact, in no other country have results been so striking, and she sticks to her athletic sports and games and does not indulge at all in military training. Is it not strange that Canada is increasing the military training of cadets at this time? I see no cause for it. I fail to understand why a department of the Dominion government is inducing the boys of Canada to take miltary training. France, after the crushing defeat of 1871 began to train her school boys to the practice of arms, but in 1890, after fifteen years experience, she abandoned the cadet system, not because the problem of defence was less urgent, but because military training was arresting the physical development of her secondary schoolboys. Australia tried the military system of training, but previous to the war her director general, after a thorough study of the problem in Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, France and England, recommended a system of games and organized athletic sports as the best training for schoolboys. I might quote other countries, but I will leave it there.
John Stuart Mill has said that all attempts by the state to bias the conclusions of its subjects on disputed points are evil. And that is just what the state is doing by influencing the education of the provinces. Education is being used as a political institution to form habits of thought and to circumscribe knowledge in such a way as to make one set of opinions inevitable. That is my greatest objection to military training The thing it does to the boy's mind is far more disastrous than the injury it does to his body. A great educationist, Mr. J. L. Paton, headmaster of Manchester grammar school writes:
The people who instil military training permanently into our schools seem to me to be closing the gates of hope upon mankind.
These are very strong words coming from a great educationist. When in Canada not long ago he said practically the same thing. Bertrand Russell has said:
I think it would be a real gain if men could be made to see that militarism is a form of cowardice. It is a desire for security that makes the common man acquiesce in the schemes of the militarists. Armaments are the most foolish method imaginable for seeking security, but fear makes men unable to think clearly and so they cling to old absurdities.
Miss Macphail.]
In our own families, as every one of us knows, active goodwill is the central principle that keeps the unit together, and that is true of our schools and of every form of government. It is true of every form of group life. If we have not active goodwill there can be no real progress. The world stands today in need of that spirit and, laugh me to scorn if you will, I think it is the only road to security. We cannot find security by arming ourselves to the very limit. I do not believe that preparedness for war will bring peace. What we carefully prepare for we usually get. If we prepare for war we get war; if we prepare for peace we shall get peace.


Mr. CLARK:: Were we prepared for war
in 1914, either .in Canada or in Great Britain?


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Great Britain, I think,
had been carefully preparing for war for a long time. She was not as unprepared as we have been led to believe. To my mind cadet training is the most vicious part of our national defence scheme. I have never attacked a permanent army if other people want that sort of thing, but I do object to imposing upon boys our own ideas instead of letting them think for themselves. I do not believe in imposing the thoughts of age upon the mind of youth. If we do not know the way out let us keep it to ourselves. Let us give the boys a chance to come to their own conclusions.
We may safely conclude that war settles nothing. It causes other wars by arousing hatreds. It brings unemployment, poverty, misery, crime and death. We can call as witnesses to this truth Viscount Grey, Lloyd George, Earl Haig, Sir Ian Hamilton, Wilson, Ponsonby, Morel, Sir Arthur Currie and a score of others. I will ndtjtire the House by citing further authorities but they are innumerable. Yet military training in the schools leads the youth to think of it as the one method of settling international disputes. Military training is one of the ways of capturing the schools and colleges for the old philosophy. And it works. The militarist knows that all the talk about peace conferences, world courts and leagues of nations will fall on deaf ears if he can instil the war psychology into the minds of our youth. A boy who is trained in military methods will naturally think of war the moment trouble arises.
In the stone age men made use of brute force when groups quarrelled. We have progressed far since then. Surely no one in this House, even the most ardent Tory, will suggest for a moment that we have not moved

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forward considerably since the stone age. We live in a scientific age and our knowledge is vast. Great numbers of inventions, coupled with the sciences, have revolutionized our methods of living, but we still use force as the means of settling international disputes. Science has made war much more destructive than it was in the distant past, and it will be still more terrible in the future. Yet war is an institution which is mothered by the state and sanctioned by the church.


An hon. MEMBER:: Not all the churches.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: No not all; most of
them. Around war has been woven romance and adventure, beauty of form, colour and sound. It has been given a greater place in song and story than any other one theme. But we know that it is a grinning demon. We know that it has neither glory nor beauty. The best literature of to-day is almost a unit in denouncing war. Wars are now world-embracing, and civilization can stand few more of them. It is more than likely that it would find it impossible to stand one more. Would it not be more sensible to leave the minds of youth free to study the causes of war and the means of removing those causes? The Women's International League for Peace on July, 1926, in convention in Dublin put themselves on record as follows:
We women of the W.I.L. are of the opinion that the time has come to educate all children for peace; we hold it to be a crime against the souls of ripening youth to picture war to them as a necessity, or even as a moral duty; to train them in war-handicraft and instruct them in the art of killing. We consider the present-day militarization of youth to be a vestige of barbarism; and that this militarization takes place simultaneously with the convening of disarmament conferences and court of arbitration proceedings, rvith the assurance of the "Locarno Peace spirit", we hold to be one of the greatest hypocrisies in the history of mankind.
That resolution does not overstate it. I am often led to wonder how Christian nations can find comfort for their consciences in the wholesale slaughter of human life. The soul of every one of us here to-day revolts at the thought of murder, but soars in ecstasy if the murder be multiplied sufficiently to be called war. Wars are fought to gain markets, to extend territory, to increase investments, to protect property, to procure some necessary raw product. For instance, we fight to secure oil in order that we may have oil to fight with. I do not think that can be doubted. There is more fuss about oil now than about any other one thing. We must therefore conclude that civilization values property above human
life. Fear is one cause of war and fear can be largely eliminated by early training. Military training in the schools thrives on fear and produces it. Military training in schools creates a bombastic military spirit of toy soldierism. Here is a picture of cadets parading, preparing for the annual review on Empire day, and among them there are three little chaps, little drummers, three of the youngest drummers in the massed bugle band. Reading from left to right they are:
William Wilkinson, of Fern Avenue school, aged six years.
Chester Mueller, of Kent school, aged five years.
Thomas Martin, of Park school, aged seven years.
Some returned soldier sent me this dipping and he had written in pencil at the top, with a dart pointing towards the little chaps:
Over in Germany they teach the children to be soldiers, so we were told in 1914. In Canada we wait until they are grown up.
I do not know how any of you can get any pleasure out of thinking that boys of five, six and seven years were parading with bands, deeming themselves soldiers. But there is certainly no comfort in it for me.
The number of cadets has very largely increased. The minister proved that by showing that they need $100,000 to take care of new units.	I have not the figures for the
year ending March 31st, 1926, but for the year ending March 31st, 1925, there were 40,686 more cadets in Canada than there were in the year 1920. That is to say the number of cadets increased in five years by 40,686, the greatest increase taking place in Quebec and Ontario-and I would not like to say that the best thought of Canada is in those provinces, much as I would like to do so. There is world-wide movement against war, and particularly against militarizing the mind of youth. The youths of Germany, of France, of England, of the United States-in fact of any country you can name-have risen in revolt against being harnessed by the military powers. They are sick of it. They see that the thing has not led them anywhere. In Canada too we have heard among our people some indications of a revolt against militarism. In that connection I suppose the labour movement in Canada should be given first place; it certainly should have that position throughout the world. Not only is labour opposed to militarism but the farmers are also. The same feeling is evident among women's organizations like the National Council of Women and the organizations which represent the more advanced

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thought on this question, like the Women's International League for Freedom, and the Christian Student movement. There are not, I believe, in Canada, any International War Resisters. The Teachers' International Federation, which is to meet in July of this year in Toronto, is to discuss the elimination of militarism from among our school children. Canada has not taken as forward a step in the matter of discarding the military machine as some countries have, possibly because we have not suffered as much from war as some other countries, and do not know from actual experience how terrible it is. But there are some gleams of light even here. In the province of British Columbia last year-and they are preparing again for the event this year-many of the schools observed a "good-will day" on May 18th. That day was decided upon by the Teachers' Federation as the day on which the school children of the country should express what thoughts they had on good-will. This year, I am very glad to say, the city of Winnipeg has consented* to the schools of that city also observing the goodwill day on May 18th. The Winnipeg Tribune had a very interesting editorial on the matter quite recently, pointing out the need for celebrations of the kind. Children going to school should learn that the world is a much smaller place than it used to be, and that the children of all countries ought to be good friends and neighbours. But the lessons on that subject should not be limited to one day in the year. More frequent lessons would impress the subject on their minds more indelibly.
Resolutions have been passed by numerous public bodies in Canada in opposition to military training. For that reason I wondered why the vote for this purpose was increased at this particular time. Even in the city of Toronto the Ontario Educational Association passed two or three resolutions condemning military training and any teaching of a warlike spirit in the schools. A couple of years ago a survey was made of the public school system in British Columbia by two educationalists, Doctor Putman of Ottawa, and Dr. George Weir of the university of British Columbia. On page 95 of their report they say this in regard to military training:
We take strong exception to the plan of having any part of this work-
Speaking of organized play and supervised games-
-done by militia officers, who naturally give it a military bent.
Miss Macphail.l
Then on page 396 they say:
We think the schools would suffer no real loss if every vestige of military training were eliminated from the school program.
I think the Prime Minister received a letter dated February 28th, 1927, from the Trades and Labour Council of Calgary, protesting against this increase in military training, and against the increased expenditure for national defence. That letter was signed by J. E. Young, secretary of the council. The Saskatchewan school trustees held a convention in Moose Jaw on February 16, 17 and 18, of the present year and resolution No. 19 passed by them was in effect as follows:
We are opposed to the war propaganda, individualism and competition that we are teaching in our schools; and we go on record as being in favour of changing our history books and readers, and the teaching of peace and cooperation.
The students of the university of British Columbia revolted at military training in that institution. There was some talk about military training being made compulsory in the university, and an editorial appeared in the university paper taking a very strong stand against it. It declared:
There has never been any wholehearted attempt to make militarists out of the students here, since the war, for the simple reason that the returned men at this college would not stand for it. Now that practically all of them have graduated, the tom-tom is beginning to beat once more.
It is quite evident that the students of that university are against allowing themselves to be driven where the military machine wants them to go. The Board of Education of Cleveland, according to the Christian Science Monitor, in its issue of January 13, 1926, came out in favour of eliminating cadet training from their curriculum, and it was to become effective last June.
I have not made any real' attempt to gather all the protests that have been made against militarism or military training, but 1 have quoted sufficient to show that in Canada, indeed on the North American continent, there is a great body of public opinion in revolt against military training for our young people. It is evident that youth itself is in revolt against many old time institutions and customs, and they are very much in revolt against war. Speaking figuratively we can look upon Canada as a youth. When this nation is compared with other nations of the world, it is a very youthful one indeed. Such being the case, Canada should take its place in the ranks of those who have risen against war and all that it means. I ask against what enemies are we preparing the

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youth of our country to fight? Apparently we have no enemies. Therefore I should say that Canada is in an ideal position to lead the world towards other methods of settling international disputes.
If one-half of the things'that we hear about Canada being an autonomous, self-governing nation are true, we are not going to be embroiled in all the wars of the continent of Europe. We live on the continent of North America, and it does not look as though we are going to have any enemy against which we need arm ourselves. The only one that I can think of is the United States, and we would have a tremendous time arming ourselves against the United States should they want to annex us, which I do not believe they want to do. Some one in conversation said to me just the other day: Why should we sit still and accept the protection of the United States? I say: Why should we not?
I think we should take advantage of every position which is naturally ours.
I wish the parliament of Canada could for five minutes view this question of militarizing the minds of youth as I view it. If you want to train grown men to be soldiers, you can do so; they are grown up and they know what they want to do; but leave the boys alone. I wish the people would say to the Department of National Defence and the government: Take your hands off the schoolboys of Canada. That is all I am asking the government to do. If they want to increase their military appropriations in other directions, I do not suppose we shall be able to prevent it. I do not know whether it is true that about 40 per cent of the expenditure of Canada goes for wars, past, present and future; but if it is true, it is a terrific waste of money; it is far too much money. It is much more than the thing is worth, and if we would spend that amount of money in making life better for the people who are alive rather than in attempting to kill somebody, we would have gone a long way towards eliminating the causes of war.
I do not intend to detain the committee any longer. I will say once more to the government: If you are paying for the instruction of the men who train cadets; if you are buying the uniforms; if you are supplying the guns; if you are giving the prizes which I think it is said were given by His Majesty- at any rate somebody is giving them and I suppose the people of some country are paying for them-if you are doing everything you can to induce these boys to take military training against their own inclination-because
I do not think the boys are very enthusiastic about it-you cannot wonder the number of units is increasing all the time. All I can say is that this expenditure will increase as time goes on, and the result will be that the minds of the boys in Canada will be biased while they are growing up and they will look upon war as the only method of settling international disputes. Because I do not believe it is the best method and because I think the government is doing the boys of Canada the greatest possible injustice it can do to them,
I move that this item be reduced by $499,999.


James Charles Brady: This is the first occasion on
which I feel it incumbent upon me to object to the observations made by the hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail). This is the. first time that I find myself in utter opposition to any hon. member in the presentation of matters to this House. On the question of cadet training, I can present to the hon. member for Southeast Grey an experience of twenty-eight years in cadet work, not merely in Canada, but in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Tennyson once said: "Self-knowledge, self-reverence and selfcontrol are the three great powers in the development of character and morality," and in cadet training we have taught and inculcated that in a degree which is perhaps not known by the hon. member but is known by all who have seen the effects of cadet training in the high schools and particularly in high schools throughout Canada.
I am sorry to have absolutely to oppose the views of the hon. member. I would like to be able to agree with her, but in a question of this sort we must be honest and we must recognize the fact that there is nothing military in the training given to-day to cadets in the high schools of this country. Furthermore the physical training is absolutely up to date and commensurate with the best improvements in the physical development of our youth. I would ask any hon. member just to ponder over this question: What is the purpose and aim of the educators of our youth in Canada to-day? It is this: To make good citizens; to make law-abiding citizens, to make citizens who will live up to their responsibilities. I say unhesitatingly and without fear of contradiction that cadet training in our schools to-day is bringing out from our youth all those attributes of honour, discipline and self-control that go to make a great country and a great nation.
Furthermore it is wrong, it is, to say the least, improper, that a viewpoint is given out to our people and to this House that our
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youth are made biased by the training which they receive in those schools. I would like the hon. member for Southeast Grey to visit the schools in British Columbia andi see the actual conditions and the teachers who have charge of those boys. I would challenge her to see even a semblance, even a very shadow, of that military dragon which she has lifted up and presented to many people who are ignorant of the facts that lie behind this cadet training.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Perhaps the hon.
gentleman has not read the report to which the hon. member for Southeast Grey has referred, namely, an inquiry into conditions in the schools in British Columbia, in which report the commissioners spoke very strongly against the cadet training.


James Charles Brady: I had a part in the report of that commission. I likewise assisted in a small way in the work of the commission. Whether that report was adverse or not, you will always have opinions adverse to every scheme that has as its foundation the purpose of ennobling our youth and making them law-abiding citizens.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I hope the hon.
member does not suggest that Doctor Putman and the other commissioner were opposed.


James Charles Brady: I am quite pleased when
I hear the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre refer to Doctor Putman. I know him personally. Of course, in any scheme, no matter what it is, there are imperfections, and he may have instanced a few things that perhaps he would like to see improved, but I say unhesitatingly that if fiere is one thing that has been for the goo( of Canada, it is the cadet training that is carried on in the high schools of the Dominion, and I say that that training should be continued until there is not one boy in the length and breadth of Canada who will not know how to stand up straight and control his body as well as his mind. That is the purpose of cadet training. Everybody knows that the newspapers to-day are full of instances showing how our youth are undisciplined and unwilling to accept authority. They want to go the wild and easy way. I say that there is no form of moral discipline more natural in its application and more worthy of commendation than the cadet training that is given in the high schools of British Columbia; I cannot speak for the other provinces.
As to handling a rifle, you would imagine from all this talk about shooting, that every boy is being taught to prepare for the day

when he may point that weapon directly towards the enemy. That is not so. I will tell you why we are teaching the boys to shoot. There is not a season in which we have not scores of deaths through negligence and lack of knowledge of handling a rifle. By our cadet training we have reduced to a minimum the number of accidents in the hunting field in British Columbia. We teach the boy that in order to shoot well he must have perfect control over his muscles, that his brain and body must coordinate perfectly.
I say that it is absolutely necessary that our boys be trained in the use of the rifle, not for military purposes by any means. I wish that those who are antagonistic to cadet training would only do the intelligent thing and go and visit the schools where this training is being carried on before they oppose it. I am speaking from experience, and I am very sorry indeed that I should be called upon to protest strongly against what I consider the exaggerated picture of cadet training that has been presented by the hon. member for Southeast Grey. I say that if we had more of this training, we would have less crime, and we would have a better direction of the energy of our youth into proper channels.


James Shaver Woodsworth: There are a few '
remarks that I should like to make with regard to this general question. I feel sorry in some ways that we have in the present Minister of National Defence a gentleman whom I think we all very highly respect. It makes it perhaps a little more difficult to speak against his estimates, but I am quite sure that none of us here thinks that when an hon. member speaks against these estimates he is speaking against any individual. I should also like to make it very clear that when we speak against militarism, we are not in any way making light of thofee who very sincerely think that that is the best way of defending their country. But we do say that there are other ways, as we see it, and we hope that our friends who differ from us will at least do us the courtesy of thinking that we are not doing this simply because we are cowards or because we have no love for our country.
I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Southeast Grey on her very excellent presentation of this case. I do not wish to make a speech of any length, because all I could do would be to endorse what she has already said so well. I would, however, like to congratulate the women of Canada upon having sent as their first representative to this par-

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liament one who has. taken such forward ground with regard to a great problem of this character.	*


Mr. CANTLEY:: No.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Someone says no.
I quite recognize that there are differences of opinion. hilst we may have considered that in the past it was by force of arms we would best be able to protect our country, the war has taught a very large number of people that war is absolutely futile in settling any question whatever. I know that there are a large number of people in 'Canada who believe that. Perhaps they have not had the opportunity of voicing their sentiments as freely as I do; perhaps some are a little bit loath to voice their sentiments, but there are a large number of people in this country who are thinking along these lines. We do not stand alone in this. Reference has been made to the labour movement. Tens of thousands of labour men went overseas and fought in the war, and the Trades and Labour Congress has endorsed this movement. The Canadian Council of Agriculture, representing the great farm movement in this country, has also endorsed it, as well as a number of the churches. The United church, for instance, has passed this question of cadet training to all its courts, and it is now being discussed from coast to coast. More than that, I would point out that a large number of our younger men, headed by those who were themselves at the front, have decided that they cannot hope for any good result from any war in the future, and they are looking to some peaceful way of settling troubles in the days to come.
Perhaps we might have been prepared for some exhibition of militarism for some little time after the war. Long after a storm has ceased to blow we know that the waves run high, but after a while they 'begin to subside, and I had hoped that the military feeling would gradually subside as we got away from the war. Unfortunately, however, the increased estimates before us would seem to show that the forces that would carry on our affairs along the old lines are very strong indeed, and one of the greatest troubles about this military question is that we have professional militarists whose job is involved, men who are at the thing in season and out, trying in every way to use their influence to perpetuate it. They may be quite honest and sincere in their viewpoint. I am not suggesting that they are not, but they are professional militarists; in season and out of season they are pressing this matter, and the great mass
of public opinion has no very easy way of manifesting itself. I should like to ask the minister if some time in the course of this debate he will be good enough to answer the question which I asked his predecessor and to which I received no answer, that is, against whom are we arming? With regard to any expenditure that is proposed the minister is expected to state its purpose. With regard to military matters the minister merely gives us in this case the specific purpose for which the expenditure is asked, but he does not state the great objective of the whole of the military estimates and expenditures. I ask, against whom are we arming? It is unthinkable that we could ever hope to fight the United States. I cannot think that after the last European war it is possible for Canadians to be dragged into another European war. I cannot think that we are going to travel over the Pacific to get into trouble in Asia. No country is more favourably situated than Canada for being in the forefront in a great peace movement. We have everything to gain by such a movement and nothing to lose. So far as external enemies are concerned, will the minister tell us definitely against whom we are arming? Some people have said; that we are arming against the radicals in this country. I cannot believe that that statement was made seriously. Are we proposing to settle questions of domestic trouble by means of force? It seems to me we are surely in a position where we can remove causes of friction or misunderstanding in some other way. I cannot think that our Canadian people are going to be militarized to that extent. Against whom are we arming?	*


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: What is the cause of our great security at the present time?


James Shaver Woodsworth: Somebody suggests war weariness, that is part of it. It is because we are not an aggressive nation. No one wants to attack us and we do not want to attack anyone.


Alfred Edgar MacLean: The answer is that Great Britain is armed to the teeth and prepared to protect her possessions overseas as well as her home shores.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I quite believe that that is the common position taken by many, but I do not believe it is a correct one. I do not believe that we are one bit safer because of the British army or navy.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Oh, oh.


James Shaver Woodsworth: That is my opinion, and it is corroborated by the history of past

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wars in which Canada has been involved. In all probability the answer would be given that preparation for war is an assurance against war. Here again I think the experiences of the last war absolutely demonstrated that such is not the case. If any country was prepared, it was the great country of Germany, and her preparations were absolutely useless, as we all know to-day. Preparation for war is no assurance against war; in fact it is the surest way in which we can be led into war. I think that is the point to which we are coming and to which the thinking of the world is coming. The other day a despatch came from Geneva, and I will read one paragraph of it. Notwithstanding the treaty of Versailles, notwithstanding the Great war, as a matter of fact we are witnessing in Europe greater preparations for war than have existed in almost any other period. This despatch reads:
With the failure of the commission to wring from Europe's leading conscript nations any basis for actual reduction of armies, no greater success was expected with either naval or aerial armaments. That means Europe's five leading nations, England, France, Russia, Italy and Germany, together with Japan, will continue to maintain their present armaments budgets which now average $1,500,000,000 annually, while the world total armaments budget, of which the bulk is European, will remain in the neighborhood of $3,000,000,000 annually.
England alone now is spending nearly $13 per capita annually on armaments; France nearly $6; Italy nearly $4; Japan $3.70; Russia $1.50, and Germany, $1.70. In addition to the direct expenditure, the world's leading conscript nations will continue to deprive their young manhood of one of the most productive periods of its life for military training, while reserve classes up to an advanced age must remain under obligation to sudden summons to the colors.
National Security
The leading conscript nations of the world are France, Italy, Belgium, Poland and CzechoSlovakia. With Japan, those nations, claiming the necessity for national security, have refused to accept any provision that would alter the present size of their armies, decrease their maximum permanent reserves or change their ' conscript systems.


Felix Patrick Quinn: Has my hon. friend compared the figures he has just quoted with the amount of the premiums paid throughout the world for fire protection and fire insurance? Why do we insure our properties against fire? Is it because we want them to be burned?


James Shaver Woodsworth: No, but the parallel is not a good one by any means. Why set fire.,-except as we do sometimes in backfiring on the prairie,-to one comer of your 
building in order to protect the whole building? Why store a powder magazine in one comer of it in order to protect it? By its very nature military preparation is the thing most likely to lead to hostilities. We have recognized that very clearly with regard to quarrels between individuals; we have largely disarmed individuals, and to-day we are safer unarmed than we would be if every man carried a gun.


John Wesley Edwards: That is the reason why we have a police force.


James Shaver Woodsworth: Yes, but I would
suggest that as years go on we are resorting less and less to force, and by our social adjustments we are actually removing the need for police of the older type.


Charles Herbert Dickie: If England had not been at least partly prepared for war, if the British ever had the same idea as my hon. friend has enunciated to-day, what would have happened when Germany invaded France?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I do not want to go into that question.


Charles Herbert Dickie: Let me tell my hon. friend that the result would be that Great Britain to-day would be eating sauerkraut.


William Duff: It is a pretty good dish.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I should have thought that arguments of that kind would not be used during the last two or three years, after so many books have been written dealing with the causes of the last war. A great many people, no doubt, have not yet read the very many interesting and instructive books which have been published in the last few years and which have shown that the stories told during the war were absolutely untrue. I have a long list of those books and if anyone wishes me to quote from them I can do so.
I do not want to enter into that discussion, but I say that England was well prepared; she recognized from the way things were going that war was inevitable, and she took good care to be prepared. But I would say that if she with other nations had sought to remove those causes of friction which everybody knew were present, we would not have had the war at all.


Peter McGibbon: The hon. member says
that England was prepared for war. How many units was she capable of putting into the field?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I have already said I do not intend to go into that.

Private Bills


Peter McGibbon: Tell us.


Agnes Campbell Macphail: Let him make his own speech.


James Shaver Woodsworth: England was not so much prepared on land. We know that. British policy for many years was based on the idea that if she were ready with her navy she would be more than a match for any nation that might come against her. She had the greater preparation. I shall be glad to go into that on another occasion.


Peter McGibbon: Seeing the hon. member does not know, probably he would like me to tell him.


James Shaver Woodsworth: There will be an opportunity. Before I close I should like to quote a paragraph which I came across in a little paper sent to me. It is rather pathetic that this should be issued by some unemployed veterans in Canada. I do not know anything about the Veterans' Review, but after speaking of the enormous cost of the war, not only in money but in human life and suffering, the article proceeds:
Altogether it is a tremendous price and should bring a tremendous good to mankind. But no goods have been delivered; the world is not "safe for democracy"; wars are not ended; small nations are in deadly fear; minorities are not protected. On the other hand, there are many Alsace-Lorraines instead of one; wars are everywhere; another great war threatens; and the world is in chaos with suffering, oppression and distrust everywhere. Yet having paid the price, and having been cheated of the thing we bought, we are told we must get ready to pay again a like price to get the same goods.
Those who talk of and prepare for the "next war" are the dangerous men of our time. They should be wholly discredited, however wellmeaning they may be, for their advice and leadership have brought civilization to the verge of the abyss.
Many of the returned men speak in this way. I do not say that the men who have been to the front are the only men who have the right to speak; I think they have the right to speak, for they know at firsthand what war means; but. I would1 say that any man who has made even a superficial study of the horrible evils of war, or who sincerely asks himself what the last war has accomplished, cannot but be anxious to ascertain if there is no other way of settling international disputes.


Peter McGibbon: May I remark that it
saved your liberty?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I do not consider
it saved my liberty one little bit. I would point out that all over the world to-day we are experiencing a period of reaction in almost every department of life. That is due
directly to the war. To-day we are shouldering an enormous burden. As we all know, almost half our national revenue goes to pay for the last war. So I cannot see that that war accomplished anything.
I must thank you, Mr. Chairman, and the committee for your courtesy if I have gone a little far afield. I do not want to impose upon hon. members, but I would say that undoubtedly we cannot settle this cadet vote without having these larger issues in mind. If in the future as in the past war is to be the arbiter of our international disputes, then I say, train every man; let us go even as far as they do in France and train every woman too. I would say further, let us before this session closes pass a law to conscript wealth automatically the moment war is declared. Surely no one can say that wealth is worth more than men.


An hon. MEMBER:: Yes, they do.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I say it would be
far better before we go any further in training our boys for a future war ho pass a law that the moment war breaks out every dollar in the handls of every man in this country should be conscripted for the service of the state.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


James Shaver Woodsworth: I think that is the only fair way. I am not here, as some may think, simply to be heard. It is not easy for me to do this. Some of you men can understand, perhaps, how difficult it is for me. But I have boys, as you have boys. It does not make so much difference to some of us; we will not be called to the front, we need not worry about these things; but I want to save my boys. I want them to be brave, I want them to do their duty to their country', but I certainly do not want them t'o become like some of the poor wrecks that survived the last war, and I would not lift my little finger to send my boys into the shambles.
Mr. AD8HEAD:	Mr. Chairman, I wish
you would declare it six o'clock. I adjourn the debate.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, go ahead.
Progress reported.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 307 (from the Senate) respecting certain patents owned by Warren Brothers Company.
Bill No. 308 (from the Senate) for the relief of Gordon Hiram Langford.
Peace River Railway
[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 309 (from the Senate) for the relief of Amanda Leona Chowns.
Bill No. 310 (from the Senate) for the relief of Edwin George Winfield.
Bill No. 311 (from the Senate) for the relief of Beulah Faye Wood.
Bill No. 312 (from the Senate) for the relief of Jane Rennie.
Bill No. 313 (from the Senate) for the relief of Dora Louisa Eliza Maxwell.
Bill No. 314 (from the Senate) for the relief of Lillian Moir.
Bill No. 315 (from the Senate) for the relief of Gertrude Isabel Middlebrook.
Bill No. 316 (from the Senate) for the relief of George James White.
Bill No. 317 (from the Senate) for the relief of Maude Cummings.
Bill No. 318 (from the Senate) for the relief of Wilhamina Susanna Annis.
Bill No. 319 (from the Senate) for the relief of Dorothy Mildred Jeffrey.
Bill No. 320 (from the Senate) for the relief of Sadie Feder Gelfand.
Bill No. 321 (from the Senate) for the relief of Orma Maunder.
Bill No. 322 (from the Senate) for the relief of Isabella Jane Boyes Brew.
Mr. J. F. JOHNSTON (Long Lake):: By unanimous consent I beg to move:
That the said bills be now read a first and second time and referred to the select standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

John Frederick Johnston: That Bill No. 306 (from the Senate) respecting the Sterling Trust Corporation be now read a first and second time and referred to the select standing committee on banking and commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Hewitt Bostock: I have the honour to
inform the House that I have received a message from the Senate that the Senate do insist upon their first amendment to Bill No. 119 to amend the Excise Act, to which the House of Commons have disagreed, but do not insist upon their second amendment.
On motion of (Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 6 p.m.
Monday, April 11, 1927