1927-03-10

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. RENE MORIN (St. Hyacinthe-Rouville) presented the third report of the select standing committee on standing orders as follows:
The select standing committee on standing orders beg leave to present the following as their third report:
Pursuant to the provisions of rule 96 (2), your committee have considered the nineteenth report of the examiner of petitions for private bills, which reads as follows:

"Your examiner has duly examined the following petition for a private bill. This bill was considered by the House last session; and while the requirements of the ninety-first rule were fully complied with last session, no notice has been published in regard to any proceedings which may be taken on the said petition during the present session af parliament, viz:-
Of Charles B. Hibbard of Montreal, Quebec and others; to incorporate Red Lake and Northwestern Railway Company."
In view of the fact that the requirements respecting publication of notice were fully complied with last session, your committee recommend that rule 91 be suspended in reference to this application.
All of which is respectfully submitted,
Rene Morin,
Chairman.
Mr. MORIN (St. Hyacinthe-Rouville) moved that the third report of the select standing committee on standing orders be concurred in.
Mr. STEVENS:: Might we know what the report is? I must confess that I overlooked it.


Mr. MORIN (St. Hyacinthe-Rouville):: It might stand as a notice of motion.
Stands as notice of motion.



MONTREAL, OTTAWA AND GEORGIAN BAY CANAL COMPANY COMMUNICATION FROM LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO TRANSMITTING RESOLUTION

Mr. SPEAKER:: I have the honour to inform the House that I have received from the Prime Minister and President of Council of the province of Ontario the fallowing communication :
Toronto, March 8, 1927.
Dear Mr. Speaker:
On the direction of the legislative assembly of Ontario, I herewith enclose you copy of a resolution unanimously passed by that legislature yesterday afternoon, the seventh instant.
May I say that the resolution was not presented, discussed or adopted with any political motive or from any partisan point of view. It is an assertion by all the members of the legislature of the rights of the people they represent, in the water-powers that are involved in the application to parliament made by the Montreal, Ottawa and Georgian Bay Company.
May I express the hope that through the proper channels you will see that it is made known to the members of the House of Commons over which you preside.
Believe me, with every respect,
Yours very sincerely,
G. H. Ferguson. Honourable Rodolphe Lemieux,
Speaker, House of Commons,
Ottawa, Ontario.

Questions



BANKING AND COMMERCE COMMITTEE

Mr. S. W. JACOBS (Cartier) moved:: That the select standing committee on banking and commerce be granted leave to sit while the House is in session.


Hewitt Bostock: Before putting the motion I must observe that under the rules it should be preceded iby a notice. It may be adopted at this stage only by unanimous consent.


Mr. CAHAN:: May I ask the acting chairman, who has introduced the motion, to be good enough, if the motion passes unanimously, as we are all willing that it should, to give notice to some members of the House when the division comes, because some of us are anxious to place ourselves on record regarding certain matters coming before that committee.


Samuel William Jacobs: I understand that if agreeable the committee will sit at four o'clock this afternoon.


Hewitt Bostock: Is it the pleasure of the
House to adopt the motion?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Hewitt Bostock: Carried by unanimous
consent.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Mr. W. F. KAY (Brome-Missisquoi) moved that the first report of the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization be concurred in.
Mr. G. G. COOTE (Macleod):: I wonder
if the chairman of the committee would be good enough to advise the House what that report contains?


Mr. KAY:: The report in question was
made to the House on March 2, and is to be found in the votes and proceedings of that day. It recommends to the House that the Seeds Act, 1923, be amended to provide that the minister shall have power to refuse a license for a new variety of wheat on the recommendation of a board named, and that he shall also have power to revoke a license on the recommendation of the same board.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk.)

Mr. BISSETT:: 1.	Has the government at the present time any pulpwood berths for sale in the province of Manitoba?
2.	If so, where are they located?
32649-67i
3.	What is the intention of the government regarding the disposal of any further pulpwood areas in the province of Manitoba, and will any disposal be on the same conditions under which a sale was made to the Manitoba Paper Company?
4.	What is the policy of the government regarding the disposal of any water-power sites on any of the rivers in the province of Manitoba, and where are such sites located?


Hon. Mr. STEWART:: 1.	No designated pulpwood berths but two possible developments.
2.	One on Nelson river, the other on the Saskatchewan river.
3.	Applications will be given consideration as received and no awards will be made without public competition after due advertisement.
4.	Water-power, so far as unalienated, appurtenant and essential to the development of new pulp and paper industries will be reserved therefor.


INSPECTION OF CARS OF WHEAT
Mr. COOTE:: 1.	How many cars of wheat have been inspected at Calgary and Edmonton from September 1, 1920, to December 31, 1926?
2.	What is the number of cars of each grade?
3.	How many cars have graded straight?
4.	How many cars have been inspected "no grade" on account of moisture?


Hon. Mr. FORKE:: 1 and 2.	Calgary	Edmcn-	Totalcars	ton cars	carsNo. 1 Northern...	539	271	810No. 2 Northern...	1,054	618	1,672No. 3 Northern...	2,392	1.015	3,407No. 4	1,282	548	1,830No. 5	520	234	754No. 6	427	175	602Feed	187	48	235Smutty	25	30	55No grade	5,432	7,080	13,112Rejected	13	[DOT] 8	21Rejected Sprouts..	23	87	110No. 1 Alberta Red	winter	1	1No. 2 Alberta Red	winter	1	1No. 3 Alberta Red	winter	2	2No grade Alberta	Red winter...	5	5No. 3 White spring	4	4No grade white	spring	8	8Total	11,915	10,714	22,6293. Calgary, 6,222	; Edmonton, 2,861;	; total,
9,083.
4. 13,119,
Questions


* WORK ON SUNDAY-CIVIL SERVICE
Mr. McQUARRIE:: 1.	Does the order in council No. P.C. 1537, dated 5th September, 1925, relating to the observance of the Lord's Day, include all permanent full time civil servants?
2.	Is the government aware that full time civil servants are still required to work sis days a week and on Sundays, without receiving one day off in the week as compensation as set out in the above order in council, or without extra remuneration for the Sunday ?
3.	Will the Prime Minister see that the contents of the above order in council are officially communicated to all full time civil servants through their respective ministers, deputy ministers and heads of branches as soon as possible?


Right Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: Mr. Speaker, this question refers to order in council No. 1537 dated September 5, but I think my hon. friend means an order passed on September 7, which bears that number. In answer to the first question I shall lay on the table a copy of the order. The answer to the next question is "no." With regard to the third question I would say to my hon. friend that I have asked the Clerk of the Privy Council to see that all departments are supplied with a copy of this order in council.


HARBOUR AT OSHAWA
Mr. KAISER:: 1.	When did the Dominion government purchase the harbour at Osliawa, and what price was paid for it?
2.	When was the site purchased for the proposed turning basin, and what price was paid for it?
3.	What estimate is placed upon the completed harbour improvements at said port?
4.	How much has been expended thereon each year since 1921?
5.	How much money is still required for the contemplated improvements?


Hon. Mr. ELLIOTT:: 1.	(a) April 8, 1901; (b) $7,500.00.
2.	(a) April 15, 1914; (b) $3,529.20.
3. Approximately proposition.	$244,000	for a 15-foot
4. 1921-22 .. ..		.. ..$ 968 13
1922-23 .. ..		
1923-24 .. ..		.... 800 99
1924-25 .. ..		
1925-26 .. ..		.. .. 94,670 54
1926-27 .. .. 5. Approximately 	$112,000.	.... 17,382 36 $131,315 72
STAFF APPOINTMENTS-CANADIAN LEGATION .	AT WASHINGTON


Hon. Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac-Adding-ton):: 1.	What positions have been established in connection with Honourable Vincent Massey's staff at Washington, D.C.?
2.	Who have been appointed to such positions and how were the appointments made?
3.	What salary is being paid to each of the
appointees?	[DOT]
4.	Are there any vacancies yet to be filled?
5.	Do these positions come under the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission, and if not, why not?


Right Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: 1.	First secretary, commercial secretary and third secretary.
2.	Laurent Beaudry, Merchant Mahoney, and Thomas A. Stone, have been appointed to these respective posts, for the remainder of the present fiscal year, in accordance with section 23 of the Civil Service Act.
3.	$5,000, $5,000 and $3,000 respectively.
4.	Yes.
5.	No, it was considered that the procedure of selection by the Civil Service Commission was not appropriate for these initial appointments to posts abroad.


LAND SETTLEMENT SCHEME
Mr. McKENZIE:: 1.	Has the government purchased or do they intend to purchase any lands in connection with their proposed lands settlement scheme?
2.	If so, is it the intention to render such lands liable to all forms of municipal taxation?
3. Is it the intention to make lands now classed as crown lands and which have been sold to immigrant settlers, subject to the provisions of the municipal acts with reference to tax sale procedure, before the land has been fully paid for by the settler?
4.	Is any change contemplated whereby Soldier Settlement Board lands are to be made liable to sale under the provisions of the tax sale proceedings of the municipal acts?


Hon. Mr. FORKE:: 1.	No.
2.	Answered by No. 1.
3.	No.
4.	No.


JOSEPH H. CYR
Mr. CAHAN:: 1.	Has Joseph H. Cyr been dismissed from the office of postmaster of Ste. Sabine station, county of Belleehasse, province of Quebec?
2.	If so, on whose charge or complaint was such dismissal made?
3.	What was the nature of such charge or complaint?
4.	Was the said postmaster, who was so dismissed, given an opportunity to present his defence against such charge or complaint?

Trade Treaty with Germany
5.	If so, what was the nature of his defence?
6.	What annual salary or revenue attached to said office?


Hon. Mr. VENIOT:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Member for constituency.
3.	That postmaster was guilty of active political partisanship to the member's personal knowledge.
4.	Not the practice in cases in which a member is prepared to state that of his own knowledge an offence contravening the provisions of the Civil Service Act, respecting political partisanship, has been committed.
5.	See 4.
6.	Salary and allowances $171.


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS
[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for the construction, prior to the 31st day of August, 1930, of the following Canadian National railway branch line:
[Stage Direction]
From a point on the Canadian Northern railway near Shellbrook to a point in township 50, ranges 14 or 15, west of the third meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan, estimated mileage 77.0; average expenditure per mile, $32,207; estimated cost $2,480,000.
He said: Mr. Speaker, His Excellency the Governor General having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
I would like to say that this is an amendment to section S of the resolution already standing in my name, with which I hope to go on to-day, and in view of that I would ask that it be substituted for section 8 of the existing resolution in order to enable discussion of the whole program to-day.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Henry Herbert Stevens: I would like to ask my friend the Minister of Railways (Mr. Dunning) with regard to some information which was given to me the other day. I was informed that large timbers needed for and being used in the construction of the Welland canal w'ere being brought from Oregon or Washington via Vancouver. I want to ask the minister if he is aware of this and, if so, why we are using timber
imported from the United States when there is an ample supply available in Canada. If the minister has not the information under his hand will he make the necessary inquiries and give an answer later?
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals):	I was not aware
of anything of the kind, Mr. Speaker, and will be glad to make inquiries and let my hon. friend have the information at a later date.


CLAIMS OF BRITISH COLUMBIA- APPOINTMENT OF COMMISSIONER
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. S. F. TOLMIE (Victoria, B.C.):: I
would like to ask the right hon. Prime Minister if it is true that a commissioner has been appointed to inquire into the claims of British Columbia in regard to railway lands and other matters. If that is so, what is the name of the commissioner and what is the scope of the inquiry?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I will be pleased to lay
on the table of the House a copy of the order in council which will inform my hon. friend of the scope of the commission. Mr. Justice Martin of Regina is the commissioner.
TRADE TREATY WITH GERMANY On the Orders of the Day:


Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Leader of the Opposition):: Might I ask my friend the
Prime Minister if there is any truth in the rumour which appears in the newspapers that a new trade treaty is being negotiated between Canada and Germany? If negotiations are taking place, could the Prime Minister give us an outline of (the contents of the proposed treaty?


Hon. JAMES MALCOLM (Minister of Trade and Commerce):: I might say that
at the moment no trade treaty is being negotiated between the government of this country and Germany.
AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRIAL DELEGATION On the Orders of the Day:


Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South):: I would like to draw to the attention of the government a despatch appearing in the Victoria Province under date of March 4, relative to the visit to this continent of a delegation sent by the Commonwealth of Australia to study trade conditions. The article will explain the point I am raising, and is as follows:

New Australian Parliament Building
That the non-inelusion of Canada in the itinerary of the Australian industrial delegation to North America is entirely due to the neglect of the Dominion government is the only expression one gleans from the members of the delegation, numbering twelve, who arrived here by the Niagara to-day.
Public announcement in the press of Canada and the United States was made five months ago of the decision of the Commonwealth government to send the delegation to study trade and industrial conditions, but the authorities at Ottawa appear to have been quite indifferent to the desirability of their taking Canada in on their tour.
Thus it appears that what is evidently an official delegation which is making a visit to this continent will not include Canada in its tour. I should like to know why this delegation has not received any invitation from the government.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not know what
credibility is to be attached to the representations in the article which my hon. friend has quoted; it is the first I have heard of the matter. I would say, however, that if any representations had been made to the government of Canada by the government of Australia with respect to any trade delegation that might have wished to visit Canada, a hearty and most cordial invitation would have been extended to it so to do.


NEW AUSTRALIAN PARLIAMENT BUILDING
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. W. G. McQUARRIE (New Westminster) :: May I ask the Prime Minister if
it is the intention of the government to accept the invitation of the Australian government to send a minister to attend the opening of the new Australian houses of parliament? If so may I venture the suggestion that Canada's representative might take up with the Australian government the matter of amending the Australian treaty.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In answer to my hon. friend's question I may say that it is the intention of the government to be represented in Australia at the opening of the new houses of parliament in Australia. I hope this country wild be represented by a minister of the crown.


PURE BRED STOCK
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. HARRY J. BARBER (Fraser Valley):
I have a telegram I wish to draw to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture. It reads as follows:

Chilliwack, B.C., March 7, 1927.
British Columbia Jersey Breeders' Association ask for your influence against discontinuing bull clubs. Great help to new settlers outlying sections.
I think the minister promised a reply to similar representations from other organizations.
Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: I have issued a communication
in reply to a number of inquiries regarding this matter and I will send my hon. friend a copy of it.



QUESTIONS OF PRIVILEGE


[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. WILLIAM DUFF (Antigonish-Guys-borough):: Before the orders of the day are
called I wish to rise to a question of privilege. In that great family journal the Financial Post- of March 4 there appears an article on the first page headed, "Maritime report keeps the government awake at nights." I do not know whether that is true or not, nor do I care, but there is a special heading which says, "Liberal members from the east said to oppose subsidy". Now, Mr. Speaker, on my own behalf, as a member from the maritime provinces supporting the Liberal party, and as president of the Nova Scotia Liberal Association I wish to state there is no truth in that statement and that we are in favour-


Hugh Guthrie: I rise to a point of order.


Hewitt Bostock: There is no question of
privilege involved in the hon. member's complaint.


William Duff: Mr. Speaker, as a Liberal
member can I not say that I am in favour and that the Liberals of Nova Scotia are in favour of the Duncan report?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Hewitt Bostock: Order.



DIAMOND JUBILEE COMMEMORATION- MR. KAISER

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Mr. T. E. KAISER (Ontario):: I should
like to rise to a question of privilege, although I may be ruled out in the same way that an hon. member opposite has been. A statement is published in the Ottawa Journal this morning with which my name is connected, and one line contains a reference which may mislead the public and the House as to a suggestion which I made in connection with the jubilee. The newspaper in question states that the suggestion was advanced' that a

Department of National Revenue
plaque carrying the portraits of the members of the House of Commons of 1927 should be placed in various counties of Canada. This is misleading. What I had in mind was that the plaque should display the portraits of the 181 members of the House of Commons of 1867. That is to say we should perpetuate in that way the memory of the members of the first parliament of the Dominion of Canada.



QUESTION BY MR. LADNER

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day.
Leon Johnson Ladner: Mr. Speaker,-


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. gentleman has
already spoken.


Leon Johnson Ladner: I am rising to ask a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Hewitt Bostock: According to Bourinot the
putting of questions when the orders of the day are called, is a privilege which must not be abused. The hon. gentleman has already spoken. I do not wish to be discourteous to the hon. gentleman, but once he has spoken he has exercised his privilege.



DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL REVENUE

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Customs and Excise) moved the third reading of Bill No. 113, respecting the Department of National Revenue.
Mr. R. S. WHITE (Mount Royal):: Mr. Speaker, it was my misfortune not to have been in my place in this chamber on Tuesday last when this bill was discussed. Had I been here I would have expressed my most cordial commendation of the character of the bill and of the proposal to create subdivisions in this department. I believe that the appointment of three commissioners will have the effect of expediting the business of the department, and of relieving the minister of an immense amount of routine which should not be saddled upon him. I would also have suggested-I observe there was a little discussion on the point-that the name " Department of National Revenue " should be altered. It was suggested when the bill was discussed that the title " Department of Dominion Revenue " should be substituted but that I think would not be appropriate. It will be within the recollection of hon. members that a few years ago it was thought advisable to change the name of the Department of Militia and Defence and it is now known as the Department of National Defence. To that alteration there could be no possible objection. The introduction of the aeroplane and the creation
of an air force have made necessary an enlargement of the description of the department, and " national defence " now correctly describes its function. In that case the question of provincial administration did not arise at all, because the matter of defence is one wholly within the jurisdiction of this parliament. But when you come to deal with revenue it seems to me that without straining the point, without chasing a shadow but with some degree of substance, it can be said that the revenues of the province of Quebec are Dominion or national revenues. The suggestion therefore that I would make to the Minister of Customs and Excise is that instead of using the words " national revenue " he should use the words " federal revenue". By doing so a clear distinction is made between provincial revenues and what we call Dominion revenues. There is a treasurer in each of the various provinces. It is quite conceivable that at any time in the future the provincial treasurer might be called the Minister of Provincial Revenue. Is it not logical and will it not better answer the purpose of the reorganization of the Department of Customs and Excise if the corollarial terms be Minister of Federal Revenue in respect of the revenue of the Dominion and Minister of Provincial Revenue in respect of the revenue of the province? That is the suggestion which I throw out now and which I would have thrown out before if I had had the good fortune to be present when the bill was before the House on a previous occasion. It is a simple matter, a matter of a few minutes, to make the change and I think it would be more appropriate.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.



WAR CHARITIES ACT, 1917, REPEAL

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved the third reading of Bill No. 114, to repeal the War Charities Act, 1917.
Motion agreed to and bill read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
That it is expedient to bring in measures to provide for the construction, prior to the 31st day of August, 1930, of the following Canadian National railway branch line's:-
1. (a) From a point about three miles west of St. Felicien on the St. Felicien branch of the
[Stage Direction]
C.N.R.-Branch Lines
James' Bay and Eastern railway to a point on the Mistassini river, in the province of Quebec. Estimated mileage 27.5 miles; average expenditure per mile $53,589; estimated cost $1,463,000.
(b) Section (1). From a point near Hebert-ville on the Quebec and Lake St. John railway to He d'Alma on the Saguenay river in the province of Quebec. Estimated mileage 9.5 miles; average expenditure per mile $56,526; estimated cost $537,000.
Section (2). From a point on lie d'Alma on the Saguenay river to Savanne on the Peri-bonka river in the province of Quebec. Estimated mileage 25.0; average expenditure per mile $63,800; estimated cost $1,595,000.
Total (b) Mileage 34.5; average expenditure per mile $61,797; estimated cost $2,132,000.
The construction of these lines shall be subject to the following conditions; -
In the eve'nt of running rights being secured between near Hebertville and lie d'Alma over the line of the Alma and Jonquiere railway, that part of the line authorized by this act between near Hebertville and lie d'Alma shall not be constructed by the company, nor shall securities be issued or guaranteed in respect thereof.
2.	From a point near Grand'Mere on the Canadian Northern Quebec railway in the province of Quebec. Estimated mileage 7.9; average expenditure per mile $213,038; estimated cost $1,683,000.
3.	From a point near Pilkington on the Canadian National railway to a point near Niagara junction on the Canadian National railway in the province of Ontario. Estimated mileage 16.7; average expenditure per mile $69,700; estimated cost $1,164,000.
r t 4. From a point near Weyburn on the Grand Trunk Pacific Saskatchewan railway to a point near Itadville on the Canadian Northern railway, in the province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 22.7; average expenditure per mile $25,110; estimated cost $570,000.
5.	From a point near Willow Brook on the Canadian Northern railway to a point in township 27, range 9, west of the second meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 22.0; average expenditure per mile $28,000; estimated cost $616,000.
6.	From a point near Sturgis on Canadian Northern railway to a point on the Canadian Northern railway between Crooked River and Mistatim, in the province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 100.0; average expenditure per mile $33,950; estimated cost $3,395,000.
7.	From a point between Crooked River and Mistatim on the Canadian Northern railway to a point in township 48, ranges 11 or 12, west of second meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 19.0; average expenditure per mile $30,000; estimated cost $570,000.
8.	From a point on the Canadian Northern railway near Shellbrook to a point in township 50, ranges 14 or 15, west of the third meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan, estimated mileage 77.0; average expenditure per mile, $32,207; estimated cost $2,480,000.
9.	From a point at about mile 67 on the Tur-tleford southeasterly branch of the Canadian National railway to a point on the Canadian Northern between Halford and Richard in the

province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 35.6; average expenditure per mile $31,742; estimated cost $1,130,000.
10.	From a point near Kindersley on the Canadian Northern railway to a point near Gliddon on the Canadian Northern railway in the province of Saskatche-wan. Estimated mileage 18.0 average expenditure per mile $35,555; estimated cost $640,000.
11.	From a point near Spruce Lake on the Canadian Northern railway to a point in township 53, range 25, west of the 3rd meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 29.5; average expenditure per mile $33,559; estimated cost $990,000.
12.	From a point near Hudson Bay Junction on the Canadian Northern railway to a point in townships 39 or 40, range 5, west of the second meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan. Estimated mileage 32.0; average expenditure per mile $34,000; estimated cost $1,088,000.
13.	From a point near Elk Point on the Canadian National railway to a point in township 55, ranges 3 or 4, west of the fourth meridian, in the province of Alberta. Estimated mileage 19.0; average expenditure per mile $39,210; estimated cost $745,000.
14.	From a point near Ashmont on the Canadian Northern Western railway to a point at or near Bonnyville, in the province of Alberta. Estimated mileage 38.0; average expenditure per mile $37,237; estimated cost $1,415,000.
15.	From a point near Bretona on the Canadian Northern railway to a point near Clover Bar on the Grand Trunk Pacific railway, in the province of Alberta. Estimated mileage 11.0; average expenditure per mile $29,000; estimated cost $319,000.
Hugh Guthrie: Before the motion is adopted I should like to ask the Minister of Railways if this resolution goes as a matter of course to the special committee on railways and shipping in order to be finally dealt with there.


Mr. DUNNING:: The procedure intended
by the government with regard to it is to send the bills which will be founded on it, not to the special railway and shipping committee, but to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines. That was the procedure followed on former occasions and I think it will be more satisfactory, particularly as the special committee will be loaded with work as soon as the Canadian National accounts come down.


Hugh Guthrie: The bills go to the select standing committee?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.


Charles Avery Dunning: It might facilitate matters if I made a brief general statement to the committee. As is well known, an effort was made three years ago to place Canadian National branch -line construction upon a three-year

C.N.R.-Branch Lines
basis in order that the management of the National railways might be able to enter more intelligently upon their construction work from year to year and not be held up depending upon the progress of an individual session of /parliament. The last three-year program voted by the House has now been practically completed. Nineteen branch lines have been constructed, involving a mileage of 572 at an estimated cost of $14,964,000 under the last program completed this year. Two projects only were not proceeded with, one being Kingsclear-Vanceboro line which was rendered unnecessary by reason of running rights being secured over the Canadian Pacific, and the other being the Rosedale-Bullpound Creek line in connection with which I expect shortly to bring down a bill for an extension of time. With the exception therefore of one project the whole of the previous program has been or will be completed prior to the 31st August, 4927, when the three-year authority expires.
The program now presented by the management through me for the next three years is very comprehensive in character and it has been given wide publicity. It is recommended by the president and the board of directors to the consideration of the House. When this resolution passes, I hope to introduce fifteen separate bills based upon it, and later I hope to refer these fifteen bills to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines, in order that the details of the proposal may be examined by the committee and a report made thereon to the House.


Mr. HANSON:: I was out while the minister was making his statement. Do I understand him to say that the proposed Kingsclear-Vanceboro branch has been definitely abandoned?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If a violation of the rule
that seems to have been brought down is not involved, what is the arrangement with the Canadian Pacific Railway as regards running rights between Fredericton and Vanceboro?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have not under my hand the details of that arrangement, but running rights have been secured over the Canadian Pacific. Thus in the opinion of the Canadian National management the construction of a further line has been rendered unnecessary. I know of no reason why the details of the arrangement should not be given to the House. I suppose it is the usual standard running rights arrangement, but I shall be glad to get the information for my hon. friend at a later date.	! ;


Mr. MANION:: What is the total amount
involved in these fifteen branch lines?


Charles Avery Dunning: The amount is $20,400,000 spread over the next three years.


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: What is the total mileage?


Charles Avery Dunning: 510.2 miles.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall we take up the
resolution clause by clause?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Yes.
On section 1.


Charles Avery Dunning: With regard to paragraph 1, I should make a statement. The management of the road wish me to inform the House with reference to this district of lake St. John, as follows:
While it is not believed that the construction of the lines enumerated above during the period will reasonably protect the interests of the Canadian National Railways, there is one notable exception. The rapid development of the lake St. John district of Quebec clearly indicates the probable future need for improved railway transportation facilities, to make it possible to handle the traffic economically. The situation in respect to the requirements of this region has been under consideration for some time, and while we are not yet prepared to make any further recommendation than the construction of the two branches included in the above list, it is altogether likely that we will find it necessary to make a further recommendation after our studies are completed.
Of course, it may also be found desirable to ask later for one or two other extensions in other fields, as a result of developments not fully foreseen at this time.
Section 1 agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
On paragraph 3.


Mr. ANDERSON (Halton):: Are these
branch lines intended to connect up with the general scheme of operation of the Canadian National, and if so, what sections will they connect with?


Charles Avery Dunning: Each of the branch lines proposed connects with the existing Canadian National System. I shall be glad to give details of the one under discussion if my hon. friend wishes. I am prepared to give details to this committee, or to the railway committee, just as this committee desires.


Mr. MARCIL:: I think some details should be given now so that they will appear on Hansard, because we are all interested in this branch line development, and others, like myself, are not members of the special committee. Perhaps the minister would give us
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just a short synopsis of the recommendations made by the management, especially with regard to the lines in Quebec. I know there has been a scheme on foot in the lake St. John district for the construction of a circular line around lake St. John. Is there anything in the minister's notes regarding the construction of such a line?


Charles Avery Dunning: The two branches which are dealt with in section 1 (a) and 1 (b), and in section 2 are both in the lake St. John area, one proceeding up the west shore of the lake, and the other going partly around the north shore.


Charles Marcil: The construction of this
circular line is not contemplated at present?


Charles Avery Dunning: Not completely around the lake. I read the president's note on that in order to make clear that the railway company is of opinion that they may require to come back within the three year period with respect to certain proposals in various parts of Canada, and particularly with respect to the lake St. John area.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If I am not out of order, I would like to ask the Minister of Railways if the government is giving any consideration to taking over the Kent Northern railway, the last branch line in the province of New Brunswick which has not been acquired by the Canadian National system. Is it the intention to take it over immediately, or is it intended not to take it over? How does the matter stand?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am afraid my hon.
riend's information is surely not correct when ne says that is the last branch in New Brunswick not taken over by the Canadian National.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think it is.


Charles Avery Dunning: To commence with, my hon. friend would not describe the St. John Valley railway-


Richard Burpee Hanson: I had forgotten that, but you are operating that road anyway.


Charles Avery Dunning: I would prefer, of course, not to discuss at this stage a matter which is dealt with specifically in the Duncan report as a part of the maritime provinces' general problem. My hon. friend's question opens up a very wide field indeed in that connection.
I think the committee will see the force of that.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I notice that section 3
speaks of a cost of $69,700 per mile, and in Saskatchewan there is a branch line to be 
constructed at a cost of $25,000 per mile. Is this big difference largely due to the cost of the right of way?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sorry I have not
that detailed information under my hand, but I will see that it is supplied in the railway committee. There will, of course, be a detailed estimate before that committee in the hands of the officers of the company.


Mr. McGIBBON:: Are these branch lines
simply to gather the local traffic, or are they a part of the main line system?


Charles Avery Dunning: The lines fall into three general classes: (1) lines which offer economic and operating advantages to the system;
(2)	branches for the purpose of general development and colonization of the country which will constitute feeders to the system;
(3)	a branch which will link the Hudson Bay railway with the south lines of the Canadian National railway system.


Peter McGibbon: Is the department really undertaking to build more colonization roads?


Charles Avery Dunning: Both the Canadian
National and the Canadian Pacific are reaching out into the newer parts of Canada very rapidly. Both railways have found it profitable to do so, the Canadian Pacific especially. One of the criticisms of this parliament which is being heard more and more frequently is that the Canadian Pacific is reaching out into new country at a faster rate than the Canadian National, and the object of this branch line program is to give the Canadian National the opportunity of reaching out into the newer developed sections of Canada, in order to build feeders for the Canadian National sytem.


Peter McGibbon: I do not think the hon. minister caught my point. Is it the policy to build purely colonization roads irrespective of the traffic available at the present time?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is very difficult to
know exactly what my hon. friend means by that term-"purely colonization roads." If he means lines which as they are built tend to open up the country and bring in settlers, and thus produce traffic progressively year by year, yes, that is the policy of the Canadian National, and it is supported by the Department of Railways and Canals.


Peter McGibbon: But are you building
these ahead of settlement?


Charles Avery Dunning: I would not say that we would adopt the policy of going in ahead of settlement, but, fortunately or unfortunately, there are many areas of Canada into which

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settlement has gone fifty and sixty and in some cases up to one hundred miles ahead of the railway, in varying degrees, and it is into that type of settlement that the railways, both the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National are being pushed. Always when a line is built into such a district the settlement increases very rapidly, and consequently the traffic increases rapidly also.


Mr. CANTLEY:: I understand that this is
a program covering three years. There is no doubt at all in my mind that such a policy is necessary due to the growth of the country, for to operate properly the system must have feeders. But I would like to ask the minister whether we are to understand that no branch line construction outside of this program now brought down will be considered during the next three years which it is supposed to cover.


Charles Avery Dunning: I should again in that
connection quote from the president's memorandum, which I read a short time ago. After dealing with the lake St. John district, as to which the president specifically stated that further studies were being undertaken in that neighbourhood which might make it necessary for the company to come back again to parliament, he says also:
Of course it may also be found desirable to ask later on for one or two other extensions, as a result of development not fully foreseen at this time.
That is to say while we are providing for a three year policy of construction, our hands are not completely tied and we are not prevented from considering projects which may develop as a result of things which are not foreseen at the moment.


Thomas Cantley: That satisfies me in
regard to something unforeseen at the moment, but I am referring to some branch lines in the maritime provinces which have been discussed in this House several times, and as a matter of fact I think have been authorized by this House on two occasions. The program, as the minister has outlined it, calls for an expenditure in the prairie provinces of $12,000,000 or $13,000,000 and over $5,000,000 in the province of Quebec. I should like to know if, in regard to branch lines, the door is closed to Nova Scotia for three years.


Charles Avery Dunning: The door of the president of the Canadian National Railways is never closed with respect to branch lines. My hon. friend will have in future the same opportunity as he and all others have had in the past of attempting to convince the management of the Canadian National Railways that any given proposal should be recommended by them to the government.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Many of us are not members of the railway committee, and here is an outstanding item which I think must have caught the minister's eye and in regard to which I should like some explanation. Section 2 speaks of seven miles of railway from a point near Grand Mere on the Canadian Northern Quebec railway, at an estimated cost of $213,038 per mile. Can we not get some explanation?


Charles Avery Dunning: I am sorry I did not
bring my estimates with me. I did not consider all the estimates would be required in committee, but I have here some indication of the motive for the line in question. I have a summary of the information later to be laid before the railway committee.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Most of us are not members of that committee and we would like an explanation of an outstanding figure such as this.


Charles Avery Dunning: This branch would leave the present line at Grand Mere and keeping in the valley of the St. Maurice river swing south of the present line into the town of Shawinigan Falls, then head generally northwest and rejoin the present main line at East Burrills about two and a half miles west of Glenada station. The present line from Grand Mere to East Burrills and the spur Aldred to Shawinigan Falls would be (abandoned. This branch line will accomplish two tilings. It will reduce the present steep gradient westbound out of Grand Mere, which is now 1.5 per cent to 0.6 per cent and give direct main line connection to the town of Shawinigan Falls.
The big economy however, comes from the reduction of gradients on the main line. At Garneau Junction, three miles west of Grand Mere come together the line from Quebec and the line from the north, which brings business from the lake St. John district, as well as from the National Transcontinental railway. The westbound tonnage from Garneau Junction to Montreal is concentrated and therefore heavier than east of Garneau Junction. At present the westbound gradient immediately out of Grand Mere controls the trainload into Montreal. By the proposed gradient improvement at this one place on the main line, the westbound freight train tonnage can be increased immediately by 79 per cent and eventually when a few other changes have been made in the line west into Joliette, the tonnage of trains westbound can
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be better than doubled. This means that on completion of this line 45 per cent of the freight train miles can be saved on business moved, and, with the further grade revision into Joliette complete, the freight train miles can be more than cut in two for a given business.
This will give my hon. friend an indication of the reasons why it is necessary to spend a large sum of money. Without having the details before me, I may say in a general way that on the Canadian National system there are many places where, when the line was first constructed, a roundabout route and a heavy gradient were adopted in order to avoid the greater expense which would be involved in going more directly and on a lower grade. This is one outstanding case. It is very obvious that when the line was first built the cheapest possible route was adopted, producing heavy grade conditions. We are able, by spending a lot of money, as my hon. friend points out, to reduce the grade and double the trainload westbound into Montreal, and it will therefore pay for itself in a short time.


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: I concede that that might justify the construction of the railway, but it does not give me any information as to why a mile there should cost $213,000, and other sections cost only $50,000 and $25,000 a mile respectively. Why should the railway cost this large sum of money?


Mr. BOYS:: A question has been asked
as to why this line should cost as much as $213,038 per mile, and I think we should have an answer.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have endeavoured to
say on at least three occasions, in reply to that question this afternoon, that I have not with me complete particulars of the engineer's estimated cost of every mile proposed to be built, because in the past I have found that such details have been gone into in the select committee, and I did not come prepared with that information. I would require to have a great volume of information on my desk in order to answer that question, and I have not the information at present. Any members of this House who are not members of the railway committee can attend the sittings of that committee, if it is convenient for them to do so, and I will be very glad indeed to have a complete memorandum for the information of my hon. friend in that committee. I cannot pretend to carry all the details in my head. I have not on my desk at the present time the large volume of information which necessarily accompanies these branch line proposals.


Mr. GEARY:: The line starts at Grand
Mere and runs to what point?


Charles Avery Dunning: Back to the main line
again.


George Reginald Geary: But where to? If it ran
through Montreal we could easily understand the reason of the heavy cost.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is only seven miles
long.


George Reginald Geary: Where does it begin and
where does it end?


Charles Avery Dunning: It runs from Grand Mere to Shawinigan Falls and back to the main line at East Burrills. Maps have been supplied for members of the committee indicating in a general way the details of each one of the proposals. I think my hon. friend has the map.


George Reginald Geary: That is all right, but paragraph 2 is a little short in its information and is not property drafted.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend is right
about that but it is in proper shape in the bill itself.


George Reginald Geary: My hon. friend indicated
that this program comprised all the work to be done within the next three years. I hope my hon. friend will be able to assure the House that during the next three years he will not permit any order in council to go through for the construction of a branch like the Rouyn railway. This was not included in the program of the last three years. It never came before the House but was put through quietly by order in council at a cost of $5,000,000. I hope this will not occur again.


Peter McGibbon: The minister is not
quite frank with us. He comes to the House with a large order and is not prepared to give us any information at all. He practically asks us to delegate our functions and our ability to the railway committee, on which three-quarters of the members do not sit. There are many committee meetings to be attended, and these bills ought not to go through the House without adequate information. We are going to vote millions of dollars regarding the expenditure of which we shall be altogether ignorant. I repeat, the minister is not very frank with us.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 4.
Mr. JELLIFF:: The mileage provided for Alberta is approximately sixty-eight, and the

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total expenditure on the different branch lines in Alberta is $2,479,000. The branch lines of Saskatchewan approximate 293 miles and involve an expenditure of $9,629,000. I want to commend the minister for making provision to meet the needs of the farmers of these two provinces, while at the same time bringing additional traffic to the national system. But I trust, in view of these figures and the large expenditure made in the province of Saskatchewan, he will keep the needs of Alberta in mind when he is urged later to provide additional mileage to serve the Peace River district, and to provide an outlet to the coast for the people there.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 5.
Mr. CAMPBELL:: What is the objective of this particular branch? Are the railway officials aiming at any particular point in the extension of the Willow Brook branch?


Charles Avery Dunning: The Willow Brook situation has developed as the result of a tentative arrangement between the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National to serve an area which lies between the Canadian Pacific Winnipeg-Edmonton main line and the former Grand Trunk Pacific main line of the Canadian National. There is rather a wide gap through there. The Canadian Pacific gave notice of their intention to ask parliament for a charter covering the territory in question, but it appeared that as a consequence of granting that charter the Canadian Pacific would parallel the main line of the Canadian National for a distance of between forty and fifty miles at not much more than ten miles. Naturally the Canadian National objected, but they indicated their willingness to extend the Willow Brook branch into that area and to serve part of it at the present time, and later on as much of it as might be necessary. Both railways came to me as minister and I suggested that if they were still in disagreement, the railway committee would deal with the matter and decide which line should serve the territory in question. I suggested, however, that they might possibly facilitate matters for parliament by discussing the subject and agreeing to some method of serving the territory without duplication. After they had reached an agreement with the Canadian National on the division of the territory, the Canadian Pacific's proposals were considered by the railway committee, and a few days ago a bill came before the House. This short line represents the extension of the
Canadian National railway to serve that part of the area which it was agreed they, should serve. This territory will be fairly well served as a result of the arrangement made. Possibly in the future some further mileage may be required in addition to the line now proposed, but we can best decide that after the details have been worked out as a result of construction.


Milton Neil Campbell: It is important to avoid duplication which, whether the road be built by a private company or by the government, must hurt us nationally. In this instance I should prefer to have seen all that particular territory served by the Canadian National because it is a rich district and the revenue would be considerable. However, it is much more desirable to have an arrangement between the two companies so that there may be no duplication, rather than have the two lines closely paralleling each other, as they would have done had the whole territory been intersected by both.


Mr. GARDINER:: What is the average
distance between the present main line of the Canadian Pacific and the main line of the Canadian National?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is hard to average the distance over the area inasmuch as it varies considerably, as hon. members of the railway committee will remember after having seen it illustrated on the map. Speaking offhand, however, I should think that the maximum distance between the two roads in a direct line would be about forty miles, which probably would narrow down in some places to about thirty-five miles. My hon. friend (Mr. Campbell) is fairly familiar with the territory and will confirm that statement.


Mr. EVANS:: There are two areas there
which need railway service, one north and one south of the Canadian National main line. One would have thought that the natural thing to do would be for the Canadian Pacific to take one territory and the Canadian National the other, but instead of that a ridiculous arrangement is made between the two companies. Both go into the same territory and encroach on each other, and the people are not served as well as they would be if one railway went right through. It seems to me that this is a problem which will become graver as time goes on, and I do think that throughout Canada, but particularly in the west, some arrangement should be arrived at whereby a committee of experts might lay out the territory for all new railways to be built from now on, indicating where lines are needed and wherein the service can be given most
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economically. Anyone taking a casual view of the matter must conclude that it is a childish thing for the two railways to be quarrelling over some small bit of territory when so much railway accommodation is called for in other parts of the country. I cannot see why the Canadian National should not have taken the territory north of the main line and the Canadian Pacific the part south. As I say, the people would have been better served and it would have been more economical.


Milton Neil Campbell: There is a real difficulty in this district, as my hon. friend (Mr. Evans) has indicated. As one looks at the lines on the railway map it certainly seems ridiculous to allow the Canadian Pacific to get in a little loop there which appears to be directly in the route of the Canadian National branch line from Willowbrook, but I presume under the circumstances that the department must consider the interests of both railways and divide the territory 'between them accordingly. This again brings to mind the difficulties with which we are confronted and with which we will always be confronted until a solution is found. I know that the suggestion that the Canadian Pacific railway be nationalized will be laughed at in this House and almost everywhere throughout the country to-day, but to my mind it is the only practical solution of these troubles. At some time in the future, it may be twenty-five years from now, this House will have to face that situation.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
On section 6:
Milton Neil Campbell: In regard to this paragraph it would seem that the objective of this branch is the Hudson Bay railway, because it touches the Prince Albert branch at a point I would judge to be twenty-five or thirty miles west of Hudson Bay Junction. Is that on account of engineering difficulties, or is it not the objective of this branch to connect that country with the Hudson Bay railway and if so why does it not connect at the junction itself?


Charles Avery Dunning: This branch will run
from a point near Sturgis to a point between Crooked River and Mistatim, and is desired by the management of the railway apart altogether from the partial link it would provide with the Hudson Bay railway; it is desired for operating purposes largely. In fact it will have a three-fold purpose; it will be part of a line from Sturgis to Hudson Bay Junction, as indicated by my hon. friend, and will thereby open up a large area of good agricul-

tural land; then it will provide railway transportation to the soldier settlement south of Prairie River. The main feature, however, is to provide a shorter and better through route for the business of the Melfort and Prince Albert districts to Winnipeg and the head of the lakes. It is estimated that the saving on through traffic by this route would amount to $48,000 per year in operation.


Milton Neil Campbell: There is another difficulty which I might mention in connection with this branch. Hon. members will recall that in 1924 a bill passed this House providing for a branch from Kelvington to a point about Tisdale, on the Prince Albert branch. When the bill was thrown out by the Senate the Canadian Pacific Railway immediately started work on a branch from Sheho, running from ten to twenty miles west of the proposed branch of the Canadian National Railways. A lot of the country through which the Canadian Pacific railway line runs is a rather swampy and bushy district, and the villages contained therein are very difficult of access. To the east of that line, along the proposed route of the Canadian National branch line, there is an excellent farming country; I think it no exaggeration to say that there is no finer or more productive piece of agricultural country in western Canada than will be found in the district between Kelvington and Tisdale, and it is nothing short of a tragedy that this particular branch line was turned down at that time. Of course I hold the government partly responsible for this, because I think they should have gone on with that work by providing the necessary amount in the estimates. A great many people went into that district when the line was surveyed expecting the branch to be constructed in due time, and even after the resolution appeared on the order paper here a great many people moved in and took up residence in that particular district. The rejection of the proposed line has left these people in a very unfortunate position; hundreds of them have moved off the land while others are remaining and trying to farm under great difficulties, hauling their grain very long distances to the railway. May I refer particularly to the district around Perigord, and I think the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Beaubien) will endorse what I have to say, because he is familiar with that district. It is one of the finest districts that can be found in western Canada, and is an exceptionally rich agricultural country. People went in there, broke up large areas of land and built good houses

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anticipating that a branch line would be built, but to-day they are obliged to haul their grain from twenty to twenty-five miles. These people are left in a position where they hardly know whether to carry on or whether to move out. They are still hoping that at some time in the future this original branch line will be constructed, and are holding on in that hope.
I may say that the branch line now under consideration will take in the northern part of that territory which would have been served by the original branch line, and will perhaps limit the chances of these people to get another branch line at some future time. Of course I am speaking without knowledge of the engineering difficulties and other conditions, but ordinarily if this branch had been built to connect directly with Hudson Bay Junction it would have served what I believe was one of its original purposes. That is, it would have opened up all that country south of the Hudson Bay railway and would have left a sufficiently large area to be provided w'ith a further branch line at some future time. I do hope that when this line is built it will strike the main line at a point further east, if there are no engineering or other difficulties in the way.


Charles Avery Dunning: I should say a word or
two in connection with the matter my hon. friend from Mackenzie (Mr. Campbell) has just referred to. This branch is in his own constituency, and he knows it very well. He also knows, of course, that for a number of years before I bad the honour of occupying my present office it was my duty in a former capacity to make representations to the railway authorities with regard to the area which he mentions, more particularly the Perigord and Farmingdale districts. I am now in the position of putting before this House what the management of the Canadian National Railways recommends, after duly considering the very many branch line proposals from one end of Canada to the other. With regard to the line now under discussion, which does not serve the Perigord and Farmingdale districts, I might Say that the management of the Canadian National Railways have been endeavouring for many years to secure a route across from the Melfort-Prince Albert line to the Swan river line, which would offer operating advantages superior to the route around the big loop by Hudson Bay junction. This line has been chosen largely because it offers these operating advantages which could not be obtained by a line running straight north from Kelvington. I would also point out that the soldier settlements south of Prairie River and Mistatim are at present
in quite as difficult a situation as the Perigord and Farmingdale districts, and it was impossible to so plan this line as to serve at one and the same time those soldier settlements and the Perigord area; that proved to be impossible. I can only say with regard to the Perigord proposal that the management does not recommend it at present. I have here some notes respecting applications which have been made during the last two years; I am afraid it will take too long to place on Hansard the detailed information involved, but I will be very glad to communicate to my hon. friend, who is of course the only member directly interested, the report of the president with respect to the whole matter, which takes up some four pages of my notes. Perhaps my hon. friend would be satisfied with that.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Milton Neil Campbell: May I ask with regard
to paragraph 7 just how the railway contemplated there will run with respect to the C.P.R. branch line? I think there is a branch connecting with the next town of Tisdale. Would not the branch proposed here closely parallel the Canadian Pacific railway?


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend is in
error when he says that Tisdale is the next station. He is not apparently as familiar with the area in question as I thought he was.


Milton Neil Campbell: I might say that I was
studying the Canadian National railway folder, but I realize there are flag stations in between that are not mentioned there. It is only the largest stations apparently that are mentioned on this map.


Charles Avery Dunning: Well, the Canadian National railway does not want to run any chance of losing the Carrot valley area. That is a plain answer to the question. We are getting in there in what is deemed to be the most economic and satisfactory way, and the Canadian National will be some eighteen miles distant from the Canadian Pacific railway if my memory serves me correctly,


Milton Neil Campbell: Would the branch run
in a northerly direction?


Charles Avery Dunning: Straight north.


Milton Neil Campbell: I understand now. In
that case it would not be paralleling the Canadian Pacific railway. In this particular instance I want to commend the minister, and the board of management of the Canadian National Railways for aggressively pushing the railway into this territory because the Canadian Pacific are trying to get there. They have been building into that territory, which
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is exceedingly rich in character, and branch lines of this nature will be very valuable feeders to. the main line.


Mr. MacNUTT:: Did I understand the
minister to state that the only railways presented to the House in this three-year program are those railways recommended by the Canadian National Railway management?


Charles Avery Dunning: With the single exception of item 12, which I will deal with when we come to it.
Section 7 agreed to.
On section 8.


John Frederick Johnston: This paragraph has
been amended and in its amended form will read as follows:
From a point on the Canadian Northern railway near Shell Brook to a point in township 50, ranges 14 or 15, west of the third meridian, in the province of Saskatchewan, estimated mileage 77.0; average expenditure per mile, $32,207; estimated cost $2,480,000.


Robert Gardiner: What is the explanation of the amendment?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have a communication from the president, regarding this. It is to hook up with the Turtleford line.


Robert Gardiner: To complete the road
through?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: From Haffard through?


Charles Avery Dunning: No, the Haffard proposal is another one which we will come to in a moment.
Section as amended agreed to.
Seel ions v), 10, and 11 agreed to.
On paragraph 12.


Milton Neil Campbell: May I ask the minister in what direction this line is running?


Charles Avery Dunning: I will send my hon.
friend the map right now.


Hugh Guthrie: As I understand it, this
paragraph refers to a line of railway which has not been recommended directly by the board of management. Will the minister explain this proposal?


Charles Avery Dunning: This is a branch in northeastern Saskatchewan to link up the Hudson Bay railway with the southern lines of the Canadian National railway system. I should
like my hon. friend from Mackenzie to lend the map I sent him to the leader of the opposition.


Milton Neil Campbell: When this particular
line gets in there it will give direct communication with the Hudson bay to the south country.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 13 and 14 agreed to.
On paragraph 15.
Mr. PRICE:: Reverting to section 2, I
should like to ask the minister what he expects to find at the terminus of this Grand Mere railway. It is to have a mileage of 7.9 miles, the estimated expenditure is $213,038 per mile and the total estimated cost $1,683,000. I should like to know if there is a gold mine at the end of the railway. I have heard and read of considerable expenditures for railways but 1 never heard of anything like $213,000 per mile unless it was through a flint cut or embodied something additional in the way of bridge construction. Cannot the minister tell us something with regard to the reasons for this enormous expenditure and also what will-be found when the railway gets in there?


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not think my hon.
friend could have been in when we dealt with this matter before. There is a gold mine involved in this proposition ibut not the kind of gold mine my hon. friend has in mind. The gold mine involved is by way of reduction in operating expenses. Even if this expenditure is very large it will be more than justified by the saving in haulage costs. It makes it possible, as I indicated before, for us to double our westbound load coming into Montreal, on this particular short line cut-off. It is very expensive construction and I have already promised to get absolute details of how the cost is made up. But it reduces our gradients from 1$ per cent to 6/10 of one per cent in that area, and makes it possible for us to double our trainloads.


Otto Baird Price: Another point to which I
should like to draw the attention of the minister is this:	Can the treasury stand a program of such enormous expenditures? I wish to point out to the minister in all seriousness that this money which is being expended is being expended largely in one portion of Canada-you have nothing there for the expansion and development of eastern Canada. Surely you can devote a few hundred thousand dollars of the money which is being expended in colonization to expenditure in eastern Canada. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are being spent in the west for hotels that are losing enormous sums yearly. 'The minister may shake his head but I affirm that they are. Their operation is improving a little, and I

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am very glad of it, but in 1924 the Fort Garry hotel in Winnipeg lost $193,000 without allowing for depreciation or interest on the money. Other items of the same kind may be cited. I wish to remind the minister that people in eastern Canada expect some development and wish to see a portion of the money which is being expended in other directions spent in their neighbourhood.
We hear a great deal about summer resorts. The Canadian National spend enormous amounts of money on Jasper lodge and in other portions of western Canada. In my constituency in tlhe town of Shediac there is one of the finest summer resorts in Canada to-day where everything can be had in the way of sea food, oysters, lobsters, and all kinds of fish during the proper season. There is an opportunity to build a hotel there. If money must be spent on hotels, let us have some of these expenditures in eastern Canada. Let us have an opportunity to develop along with the rest of Canada. Let us feel the pulse beat of development as it is felt in other parts of the country, and let our Canadian National railways be a credit to the people of the whole of Canada and have a tendency more than they have had in the past to develop our country and to make us all feel that we are going along, working together, to make an united Dominion.
This railway proposition is a mighty one; it is a hard thing to handle; but I believe it can be used as an agency for greater development in Canada than we have had in the past and for bringing about a much better feeling among the people, the east and the west. I would earnestly urge the minister to see to it that his department of colonization endeavours to make a more thorough investigation into maritime problems and to see if some way cannot be devised to remedy conditions as they exist there to-day. The maritime provinces are anxiously waiting for action on the Duncan report,'and the government of to-day is on trial as to what is going to be done to remedy the disabilities of the mari-times. I trust the Minister of Railways as well as the other ministers of the government are giving serious consideration to the situation as it exists because the people of the maritimes are much in earnest at the present time. They feel that they have borne the burden more heavily than any other portion of Canada. They feel that they have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in the development of other portions of the country with very little or no return. I would ask the minister and the other ministers of the government to consider the situation seriously and see if something cannot be done to 32649-68
improve conditions in the maritime provinces.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not want to drift
into a discussion on maritime rights and I will not follow my hon. friend along that line. In so far as his remarks relate to this program, may I point out that it is recommended by the management and board of directors of the Canadian National as being in the best interests of the success and prosperity of the National system of lines; that on the board of directors and management there is a considerable majority of eastern Canadians, and to create the impression, as my hon. friend's remarks undoubtedly would whether he so intended or not, that some special privilege was being extended to western Canada through this program is, I can assure him, entirely wrong. The board of directors is composed very largely of men from eastern Canada. There are only two from west of the great lakes. As everyone in this House knows, the management is certainly not western in any sense of the word.


Otto Baird Price: There is one from the maritime provinces, Mr. Lodge. I do not know of any other.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps my hon. friend
and I do not understand each other. Evidently when my hon. friend was referring to eastern Canada he wias not using the term in the same sense that I am using it now. When I speak of eastern Canada I mean that broad division lying east of the great lakes. My hon. friend evidently meant the maritime provinces when he spoke of eastern Canada and therefore to that extent I misunderstood him.
While the criticism may be urged that this development program so far as it relates to branch lines is largely in western Canada, 1 would again point out to the committee that the great privately-owned corporation, who are certainly not playing favorites, who are looking after the shareholders of the Canadian Pacific at all times, are looking after this part of Canada which we are dealing with in this resolution. That proves that it is good business.
With respect to hotels, might I point out that last year during the hectic period which we had in this House, representations were made to me by the Hon. E. M. Macdonald, and I believe also by the present member for Pictou (Mr. Cantley) with respect to a hotel in the maritime provinces, at Pictou, if my memory serves me aright? That matter was investigated by the Canadian National management ; they recommended its purchase, and to-day it is a Canadian National summer hotel.

C.N.R.-Branch Lines


Otto Baird Price: On a very small scale.


Charles Avery Dunning: I presume so. But, like Jasper Park, if it pays, you can depend upon the management extending it in proportion to the patronage it receives. The Canadian National railway management is on the job as regards improving facilities which bring in revenue to the National lines.


George Taylor MacNutt: I very much regret speaking in a sectional way in dealing with this railway branch line program now before the House, but I confess I was disappointed when this project was brought down. This was largely the reason of my question to the minister this afternoon when I asked if only branch lines suggested by the management were submitted to the House. I had reference particularly to the Guysborough railway. While the representative from that constituency is not in his seat I am sure that railway has the sympathy of the present management of the Canadian National system. I was glad that the minister this afternoon stated to the committee that the door was not closed for the next three years in relation to additional railway lines.


Charles Avery Dunning: And if it was, I can assure my hon. friend that the present member for Antigonish-Guysborough (Mr. Duff) has told me that, if necessary, he intends to break the door open.	.


George Taylor MacNutt: I am glad to hear that. The minister made some reference to the new bungalow hotel system as it was introduced in that province. I can assure him that unless some change is made in the management there, that hotel will not show the government a profit. I know this is not the place to take that matter up and I merely make that remark in passing.


Charles Avery Dunning: I wish my hon. friend
*would give me the information privately with regard to that and I will bring it to the attention of the management.


George Taylor MacNutt: Thank you. Having been a resident in the county of Guysborough for some eight or ten years and being thoroughly familiar with the topography of that county, I can assure the minister that from my knowledge, notwithstanding reports that have been made to this House in days gone by by some supposed engineers, that railway is going to prove profitable, and I am glad the minister has stated that the door is yet open for bringing down a bill in connection with it.


Mr. BEAUBIEN:: Is it not the case that when the branch line railway proposition men-

tioned by the hon. member was before the House, the Right Hon. Mr. Graham being then Minister of Railways, the only opposition to it came from the other side of the House; that with all that opposition the bill was passed in this House, and that it was thrown out by the Senate?


Charles Avery Dunning: I think that is correct.


Robert Gardiner: Before the resolution is reported I would like to make a few observations on the program and also to secure some information from the minister. I have no objection to any item in the program now before the committee. The greatest objection I have to the program is that it is not large enough. It is quite true the Canadian National board may think it is sufficient for the present time, but there are other railway projects very much needed in western Canada, and which should, in my judgment, be included in this program. First, I should like to get some information from the minister with reference to what is known as the joint section from Rosedale to Bullpound Creek. This passed the House three years ago. It is a joint section to be built by the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National. I understand that there is some agreement between these two companies with regard to this joint section, and that the appropriation will run out some time in June, I think. I would ask the minister whether any provision is going to be made for the payment of the half share of the Canadian National in the construction of this joint section.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps my hon. friend
would postpone his question, because I expect to bring down a bill shortly providing for an extension of time with reference to that particular project. The agrement, as he says, expires this summer, but in August, not June. When the bill comes down I shall have full details of what it is proposed to do in connection with the matter, but I have not those details here now as this is not one of the lines now being dealt with.


Robert Gardiner: Can the minister inform the committee whether the agreement between the two railways is completed and signed.


Charles Avery Dunning: I have the following
note:
The respective railways proposing to undertake this joint section concluded not to proceed with the work, and therefore nothing has been done up to the end of the year 1926. An extension of time for the completion of this line is

C.N.R.-Branch Lines
being asked for at this session of parliament, and if granted it is estimated that the majority of the half cost, amounting to $915,000, will be expended during the year 1927.
I have no information as to whether the joint running agreement has yet been signed, but certainly negotiations are going on.


Robert Gardiner: There are one or two
other branch lines to which I should like to direct the attention of the minister. When the last branch line program went through this House, provision was made for the extension of what is known as the Biggar-Loverna line. I know that many petitions have come from the district concerning this railway, and they have been forwarded not only by the people directly, but through myself personally. We were naturally expecting that the short distance required to link this up with the Canadian National railway and make a through railway project would be provided for in this year's program. I should be very glad to know if the minister has any information that he can give to the House as to the reason why this particular construction is not going to be proceeded with. During the last few years many of the people left the district traversed by this particular railway, but since the portion was completed and put in operation last year many of the old residents have come back, and the development that has taken place there in the last two years is enormous. So this particular line at least is assured of a much higher tonnage than could have been expected when the line was first extended from Lovema westward. Does the management intend to ask for power to build this line in the near future, or what recommendations has the minister from the management in regard to it?


Charles Avery Dunning: The line is not included in the program before the House, and it is not the intention to introduce legislation regarding it at this session, because it has not been recommended to the government by the management of the Canadian National Railways. I am afraid in that regard I cannot add anything to what the president informed my hon. friend under date of January 12. The people of this area and, indeed, in all the others-there are very many of them; I have here a whdle file of requests for branch lines in all parts of Canada which have not been included in the program now before the House-to the people of each district I would say that they have the opportunity of convincing the management of the Canadian National Railways that the line in question is a sound proposition from the 32649-68i
point of view of the Canadian National and should be recommended by them to the government. That is all I can say to my hon. friend, who I think is familiar with the position in that regard, and desires to have it as a matter of record.


Robert Gardiner: There is another railway in that district further south, known as the Eyre-Acadia valley line. This was built in connection with the joint section from Rose-dale to Bullpound. The grade was built in the year 1921, and only something like twenty miles of steel has been laid from Eyre to Acadia valley. There were from twenty to twenty-dive miles of grade built in 1921, on which no steel has been laid. The people leel that once the grade has been built, in view of the smaller cost of laying the steel upon the line, the steel should be laid at an early date, in order that the people in that district may have the transportation facilities they have been expecting for some years. A problem has loomed up, however, in the last year or two. It was contemplated in 1919, when the joint charter was given to the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National, that the Canadian Pacific would proceed in an easterly direction from Bullpound towards Empress. I understand, however, that the Canadian Pacific have virtually given up the idea of building that particular line, and consequently the other question crops up, that in order to give the people close to the Red river the service that is very requisite, it might be desirable to re-survey the whole project from Acadia valley -to Bullpound. I do not know whether the minister has any notes or recommendations from the management in regard to that or not, but if he has, I would like to know what is contemplated.


Charles Avery Dunning: As my hon. friend knows, this matter is under investigation by the management at the present time, and there is involved in it also negotiations with the Canadian Pacific with respect to the Rosedale-Bullpound line. I should like to say for the information not only of my hon. friend, but of the committee in general that the assumption that the grading represents the major cost in building a line of railway is not correct. The steel and ties and labour, after the grading is done, are far, far more expensive than the cost of building the grade in the first place.


Robert Gardiner: There is another matter. I have received many petitions from the western portion of Saskatchewan, from people in the Rosenheim district. There is at present in existence a Canadian National line from
C.N.R.-Branch Lines

Edmonton to Alliance, and the people in the western portion of the province of Saskatchewan have been asking that this particular branch line be extended in an almost easterly direction to join up with the National system at Unity. When this line was first contemplated it. was supposed to be a short route from Edmonton to the United States. I would like to find out from the minister what is the ultimate destination of the Edmonton-Alliance line in order that we may acquaint the people of that district as to what they can expect from this particular railway?


Charles Avery Dunning: I regret that I cannot
give any further answer on behalf of the management with respect to this proposal than I was able to give with respect to the former one. I would like to express appreciation of the readiness of members of the committee on both sides to accept fully the position that in matters of this kind it is necessary, for those affected, including members themselves, to convince the management of the Canadian National that their proposal is one which should be undertaken. I particularly appreciate that because I know there are many men on this side of the House, as well as the other, who should to-day be placing something on Hansard for the benefit of their constituents, but who are refraining from so doing, knowing full well that they must deal with the management of the Canadian National Railways in the first instance.
I regret that I cannot say anything more with respect to other branch line proposals. If I had the information as to the intention of the management I would be glad to give it, but I do not have it before me in any of these particular cases, because these matters are still under consideration by the management.


Robert Gardiner: I suppose when the bill is before the committee some of the officials will be there to give us important information to clear up some of the matters upon which we have no information?


Charles Avery Dunning: I will undertake to have before the railway committee all of the officials concerned with the operation of the road whose work would even remotely touch the matters under consideration. I would, however, point out to my hon. friend that under such circumstances officials of the Canadian National have not authority to commit the management, or the board of directors, but it may be possible to secure from them information with respect to projects which are not included in the present branch line program.


Mr. SMITH (Cumberland):: The minister
will recall, I think, that last year, when the railway estimates were under consideration by the committee, I called attention to a small line branching off the Canadian National railway at Maccan, in Nova Scotia, running to the town of Joggins on the bay of Fundy. It is owned by a private company, the Maritime Coal, Railway & Power Company Limited.


Charles Avery Dunning: Is that Joggins?


Robert Knowlton Smith: Yes. This
road and its equipment are in a deplorable condition. The road serves a country very rich in coal, agriculture and timber. The citizens living in this section have made repeated demands for better service and have not met with any success in that direction. The minister last year promised some consideration with regard to the proposed absorption of this line by the Canadian National Railways. It is very difficult to bring the matter to the railway board other than through the medium of this House, as I understand it. And considering the fact that there is to be an expenditure of $20,000,000 for a program of railway construction covering three years, most of which is going to other parts of Canada, I think that this is one railway service in the east which should be given some attention by the Minister of Railways, and I would ask him if he has investigated this project, and with what result?


Charles Avery Dunning: I hope this is not a preliminary to what might easily happen; that is that members from other parts of Canada where there are some privately owned railways, or some lines of railway not now owned by the Canadian National, will endeavour to get us to take over their particular lines. One of the greatest difficulties in connection with the Canadian National! system at the present time is the number of lines here and there over Canada, which are not now owned by the Canadian National system, but by the provinces in some cases, and in the majority of cases by private corporations, which are desirous of selling their property to the Canadian National system.
I do not want to enter into a discussion, of the problems in the maritime provinces and eastern Quebec which are involved in considerations of that kind. I can only say that the Joggins line is a small, small part of a very great problem, and I can assure my hon. friend that the Joggins line will not be lost sight of when we are considering means of dealing effectively with the much larger problem involved. I see that my hon. friend from

C.N.R.-Branch Lines
Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil) is chafing at the bit just now. He wants to tell us what should he done with respect to the Gaspe railway, and I say that the railway situation at Joggins is nothing compared to what may be said with reference to Bonaventure, or what the hon. the Speaker might have to say with resipect to the situation in the Gaspe peninsula. These are not the only ones. This matter represents one of the problems we have not yet solved, I frankly admit it is difficult to deal with, and I do not think it will be helped by attempting to deal with one of the many smaller propositions. We must look at it as a general problem, as relating to a very large section of the maritime provinces particularly, and also eastern Quebec.


Mr. LAVIGUEUR:: Has the minister considered the Lake St. John railway proposition?


Charles Avery Dunning: The Lake St. John proposition has already been before the committee.


Mr. BOWMAN:: Is this the complete program for the next few years, or is it open to further extension? I desire also to ask, if this is the entire program recommended by the Canadian National Railways, or have some of the recommendations been turned down by the government?


Charles Avery Dunning: None of them has been
turned down. With reference to the three year program, we are endeavouring to so plan the addition to capital expenditure of the Canadian National as to keep well within bounds. Naturally in so doing it is advisable to endeavour to budget for a considerable period ahead1 and to hold down capital extensions to the system, except where they are demonstrated as being both necessary and good from the point of view of revenue. In saying that I do not mean to imply that we intend to come down each year with a new three-year policy of extension. As far as we can now foresee, this is our program for the next three years, but in connection with such a great system it would be absurd to take the ground that we will not at the next session of parliament introduce any branch line legislation, but broadly, this is our program for the next three years.


Mr. BLATOHFORD:: Is there any possibility of the Canadian National Railways reconsidering the survey of the Ashmount branch? A delegation from the district has been in the city for the past ten days asking that the branch be built through and out of St. Paul de Metis. St. Paul is one of the oldest settled districts in northern Alberta, and they consider that this branch should be built.


Charles Avery Dunning: That question and others of a like nature must be dealt with before the select standing committee on railways and canals. The parties to whom my hon. friend referred will1 have an opportunity of presenting their views before that committee, and my hon. friend as a member of that committee will have an opportunity of examining the officials of the road with reference to the route which they propose to take in connection with the proposed branch.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.




[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 124 respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between St. Felicien and Mistassini river and between Hebertville and Savanne Falls, both in the province of Quebec.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 125, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line from a point near Grand Mere on the Canadian Northern Quebec railway.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 126, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Pilkington and Niagara Junction in the province of Ontario.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 127, respecting the construe-
C.N.R.-Branch Lines
[Stage Direction]
tion of a Canadian National railway line between Weyburn and Radville in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 128, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Willow Brook and Township 27, Range 9, in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 129, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Sturgis and Crooked River and Mis-tatim in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 130, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Crooked river and Mistatim and Township 48 in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 131, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Shell Brook and Kilwinning and Township 50 in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to itihe select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to
TMr. Dunning.]
introduce Bill No. 132, respecting the * construction of a Canadian National railway line between Turtleford and Hafford and Richard in the province of Saskatchwan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 134, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Spruce Lake and Township 53 in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 133, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Kindersley and Glidden in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 13l5, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Hudson Bay Junction and Townships 39 or 40 in the province of Saskatchewan.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 136, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Elk Point and Township 55 in. the province of Alberta.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUN'NING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved, for leave to

Judges Act Amendment
introduce Bill No. 137, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Ashmont and Bonnyville in tihe province of Alberta.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 138, respecting the construction of a Canadian National railway line between Bre-tona and Clover Bar in the province of Alberta.
Motion agreed to, bill read the first and second times, and referred to the select standing committee on railways, canals and telegraph lines.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, that it is expedient to amend the Judges Act, chapter 138 of the Revised Statutes, 1906, to provide:-*
1.	That a salary of $12,000 per annum be granted for one additional judge of the Supreme Court of Canada;
2.	That on his attaining or having attained the age of seventy-five years, any judge of the Supreme Court of Canada or of the Exchequer Court of Canada may be granted an annuity equal to that which he would then have been eligible to receive if this legislation had not been passed and if be had at that time resigned liis office.
3.	That if the said Judge be not then eligible for the grant of an annuity, and was appointed before the passing of this legislation, or if he was appointed after the passing of this legislation and has continued in office for at least ten years, he may be granted an annuity equal to two-thirds of his salary at the time he ceased to hold such office.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Johnston in the chair.
Mr. LAPOINTE:: This resolution precedes the introduction of three bills; one to amend the Supreme Court Act, another to amend the Exchequer Court Act and the third to amend the Judges Act. The first clause of the resolution provides for the granting of a salary for one additional judge of the Supreme Court of Canada. The two other -clauses of the resolution, which have been prepared by the officers of the House from copies of the bills which have been supplied -to them,
provide for the retirement of the judges of the Supreme Court or of the Exchequer Court of Canada when they have reached the age of seventy-five years. These are the financial arrangements to supply them with a pension to which they would otherwise be entitled.


William Alves Boys: Is that voluntary retirement?


Ernest Lapointe: No, they would -cease
to hold office at the age of seventy-five years. These two changes are made for the same reasons.' The Supreme Court -of Canada is the highest tribunal of the land and it is of the utmost importance that it should have and retain -the confidence of the people and be maintained in the highest state of efficiency. When the Supreme -court was established and constituted the number -of judges was the same as it is to-day-six, one chief justice and five puisne judges. Since then the country has developed tremendously and the importance of -the cases to be decided is much greater. While geographical conditions should not be considered in the appointment of judges, because the best possible men should be appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada, there is -one exception, namely that two judges will always be members of the bench or -bar of Quebec, familiar with the civil law -and procedure of -that province. Apart from that there is no geographical condition mentioned in the act. I must say, however, that since the creation of the court such considerations have been -taken into account in making appointments; there is one judge usually supposed to be a member of the bar or bench of one of the maritime provinces; two -come from Quebec; two have usually been appointed from Ontario and one judge is usually appointed from the bench of British Columbia. The prairie provinces were not then developed as they are to-day, and up to the present there -has not been a judge from either the bar or the bench of any of those provinces. It has happened quite frequently -that when one or two judges are sick or unable to sit, or when some of them -are disqualified through having already given an opinion on the matter submitted to the court, -the chief justice has been compelled to ask a member of another court, either from Ontario or Quebec or some other province, to sit as a member -of that tribunal. It has been represented to me many times that that does not make for the full efficiency of the court, and that litigants who come from all parts of Canada and who spend a considerable amount of money to secure the decision of the highest court of the land are entitled to have their cases heard and decided by judges having the standing of the Supreme
Judges Act Amendment

Court of Canada. This is also the practice prevailing in other countries; the Supreme Court of Australia consists of seven judges, the exact number we will have in Canada if this bill becomes law.
There is another consideration which applies to the provision making retirement compulsory at seventy-five years of age. Members of the bar come to argue cases before the Supreme court from distant parts of the country, and the court must be complete and well organized in order to hear these oases when counsel come to Ottawa for that purpose. Such cases camnot be adjourned except at considerable expense and to the disadvantage of the litigants and the members of the bar as well. These considerations apply as well to the other clauses of the bill making the retirement of the judges of the Supreme court and the Exchequer court compulsory at the age of seventy-five years.


William Alves Boys: Does that mean the Supreme
Court of Canada alone, or does it include the Supreme courts in the various provinces?


Ernest Lapointe: I will come to that in
a moment. I notice that my good friend from Muskoka (Mr. McGibbon) has a resolution on the order paper asking that all judges should be retired when they reach the age of seventy-five years. I believe that under the British North America Act we have not the right to do that in the case of the judges of the high courts of Canada. The sections of the British North America Act dealing with the judicature are 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 and 101. Section 99 states, that the .judges of the superior courts shall hold office during good behaviour but shall be removable by the Governor General on address of the Senate and House of Commons. According to the enactment the tenure of the judges of the high courts of Canada is really a life tenure, and this parliament has no right to retire them compulsorily at any time during good behaviour.


Peter McGibbon: I grant that the contention is right in regard to existing judges, but what about appointments in the future?


Ernest Lapointe: I am afraid that we
could not meet the wishes of my hon. friend unless we asked for an amendment to the British North America Act. We have the right so far as the Supreme court and the Exchequer court are concerned because of the provisions of section 101, which reads! as follows:
The parliament of Canada may, notwithstanding anything in this act, from time to time, provide for the constitution, maintenance, and organization of a general court of appeal for

Canada, and for the establishment of any additional courts for the better administration of the laws of Canada.
The Supreme Court of Canada and the Exchequer Court of Canada have been created and constituted in virtue of section 101 of the British North America Act, which especially states that notwithstanding anything in the act, notwithstanding section 99 or any other section, pariiament had the right, when creating the Supreme court, to state that the tenure of the judges should be a life one or only until a certain age. They did not make such an enactment then, but we have the right to do it now. That is why we are introducing this legislation. The provision does not go as far as my hon. friend from Muskoka would wish it to go, but I am afraid we have no jurisdiction to extend it to other courts than the federal courts, namely the Supreme Court of Canada and the Exchequer Court of Canada.


William Alves Boys: While the minister is upon
that point may I ask if there is any special provision in the British North America Act with respect to the retirement of county court judges? There was an amendment put through, if I remember correctly, in the year 1913 or the year 1914, providing for the compulsory retirement of county court judges [DOT] upon reaching the age of seventy-five years. Is there any special provision in the British North America Act which provides for legislation of that character?


Ernest Lapointe: No.
Mr. BOY'S: Is it suggested that such legislation was ultra vires?


Ernest Lapointe: No, not at all, but 1 would point out that section 99 applies only to the judges of the superior courts.


William Alves Boys: And the Exchequer court?


Ernest Lapointe: No, the superior courts. We have no right to deal with judges of the superior courts to the extent of restricting their tenure of office, but there is no such provision applicable to the county court judges, who have not been considered as members of the superior or high courts.


William Alves Boys: What I thought was that their commission appointed them for life subject to good conduct but subject to removal as a result of impeachment.


Ernest Lapointe: There is nothing in the British North America Act preventing us from dealing with the tenure of office of the county court judges, but section 99 prevents

Judges Act Amendment
us from dealing with the tenure of office of superior court or high court judges. That is where the distinction comes in.


William Alves Boys: I have great respect for the views of the minister but I do not think that was the opinion of the Minister of Justice at the time I refer to. I remember this very matter coming before the House more than ten years ago, and I discussed that feature with the then minister, pointing out that if it was necessary to retire county court judges at seventy-five it was probably quite as necessary to retire judges of the Supreme court at the same age, because they would be just as likely to suffer from ill-health, infirmity or otherwise, as county court judges did and as they were required to deal with matters of far greater concern and importance than county court judges the necessity for compulsory retirement might be even greater.
I recall that his answer to me at that time was that the matter was under consideration, and he hoped to deal with it. He did not say there was no jurisdiction.


Ernest Lapointe: Still the records of the department show that was the obstacle in the way of carrying the idea out with regard to the judges of the high courts or the superior courts. I was reading in the library that in the country to the south they have the same conditions with regard to their federal courts. The constitution of the United States enacts that the judges of these courts shall be appointed and remain in office during good behaviour, and the government has never been able, although it has tried in many instances, to make their retirement compulsory. The United States has endeavoured to deal with the situation by giving a pension equal to their full salary to judges who, having been in office at least ten years and reaching the age of seventy, desire to be superannuated. That was an invitation to them to retire, because they would have a pension equal to their salary; but experience shows that most of them preferred to remain on the bench, even though they were given the right to a full pension when they reached the age of seventy. Fortunately we. have not the same obstacle to meet as far as our federal courts are concerned, and I have come to the conclusion, having not only consulted with but received suggestions from the members of the bar and I might even say from members of the judiciary themselves, that this is a good provision to enact. That is why I am introducing these bills.


Peter McGibbon: I desire to put myself on record as being opposed to all life appointments. I think they are bad-bad in substance and in fact. I might make the suggestion to the Minister of Justice that if the government is so anxious to reform the Senate it might put into effect an age limit just as in the case of the judges, and that would be something that would work to the benefit of Canada.


Ernest Lapointe: I would feel like agreeing with my 'hon. friend in that regard.


Peter McGibbon: Coming back to the subject under consideration I would say that the principle involved in life appointments is a bad one. There is no question about it in my mind. We could take any man in this House, place him in a position where he is responsible to no one, give him wide power, as we do, leave him there for twenty or twenty-five years, and then we should find in many cases that he was unfit to carry out the responsibility we had entrusted to him. In all kinds of life-animal, vegetable and human- there is a period of growth, development and decay. We cannot get away from that fact; and distasteful as the idea is to us, there comes a point in every man's life where he no longer has the maximum of efficiency. That is true not only physically but mentally. The Great war proved, for example, that people subjected to tremendous physical and mental strain were less efficient after the age of twenty-eight than before. They cannot come back, so to speak. That is true in all walks of life. It is true in the physical sphere. I have under my hand the ages of the men on the bench and they run 87, 75, and so on, for some six or eight of them. I say without hesitation, speaking as a medical man, that the time of maximum efficiency in their life had passed long ago. I know there are some exceptional men who are apparently brilliant at am advanced age, but if they are put to the test I say emphatically that they cannot carry out a sustained effort as they could some years ago.
All you have to do is to carry the knowledge a little further, to go into other spheres of life. For example, in this country there is hardly a university to-day that does not make it compulsory for its professors to retire at from sixty-five to seventy years of age. We have the same regulations in our civil service. In our railways men are retired at sixty-four or sixty-five years of age. We have the same thing in the army and in the navy. We have it also in business life for different reasons and causes. The people retire them and put younger men in their places.	When the late Sir William Van
Horne, I think it was, retired from the presi-
10S2

Judges Act Amendment
deney of the Canadian Pacific railway, I quite remember reading his statement that he was retiring in order to make way for a younger man, the late Lord S'haughnessy. The latter in turn retired and we have Mr. Beatty who, I believe, is only forty-eight years of age and who has been for a number of years directing that large corporation. I have in my hand a list that I copied from the Toronto Globe giving the ages of men at the heads of the large institutions of this country. Sir Henry Thornton is only fifty-eight. I think the Prime Minister of this country is only fifty-two or fifty-three, and the oldest minister in the cabinet is fifty-eight.


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: No-sixtyeight.


Peter McGibbon: At any rate, the principle is that this is a young man's country; this is a young man's age, and when we stick to antiquated methods of leaving people in responsible positions, where they have great power such as they have on the bench, until they are eighty or ninety years of age, we are not doing justice to the country. Other countries are getting rid of this sort of thing. In Great Britain they are retiring county judges at the age of sixty-five. In the United States I believe judges are elected only for short terms. I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Justice to this clipping-I do not know whether or not it is correct-from the Baltimore Sun of January 3t. Speaking about the age limit for judges in the United States it say-s:
Former Justice Charles E. Hughes, discussing the proposed seventy-year age limit for members of the Supreme Court of the United States

So they must have a bill there to retire them.
-agrees that a limit is proper, but he would raise it to seventy-five years for this court. Of course, any limit must be an arbitrary one, retiring at times judges competent to carry on their work; but there have been instances in this tribunal of the grave danger of permitting it to go on without any limit at all on the age of its members. Occasions have arisen not infrequently when justices who, everybody knew, were not in mental or physical condition properly to perform their duties were sitting in this court and, presumably, helping to frame opinions on questions of the greatest and most far-reaching importance.
This is something that is interesting the people not only of this country but of Great Britain and the United States. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice this question: Is there anything more absurd than to leave it to a man who is advanced in years to sit 
in judgment on himself as to whether or not he is fit to carry on? It seems to>
me that such a proposition is ridiculous. In the case of our judges we apply no age limit. We say to them that they may retire, buf we allow them to decide whether they are fit or unfit to carry on. I recognize the difficulties which the Minister of Justice pointed out. I read the British North America Act and I thought section 99 would probably make this resolution unworkable. The proposition I want to make to the minister is this-


Mr. POULIOT:: I rise to a point of order. In the orders of the day there is this notice of motion standing in the name of the hon. member:
That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable in the interests of the Dominion of Canada that all judges be retired on reaching seventy-five years of age.
I think the hon. member 'is discussing his motion rather than that of the Minister of Justice. Is that right?


Peter McGibbon: I think my remarks
have been quite in accord with the principle of the resolution. The Minister of Justice admitted that. The only difference between the Minister of Justice and myself is this: I quite agree as regards everything he is doing only he is not going far enough to suit me. I also realize the difficulties in his way. As a layman I read the British North America Act and I thought I was up against section 99. But what I ask him to do in the interest of Canada is this: He told us last night that an inter-provincial conference was going to be held. A subject like this is not very controversial; certainly it does not override any provincial rights. Cannot this be taken up on that occasion so that we may get the consent of the provinces in order that next year the minister can bring in a bill to make this legislation workable?


Ernest Lapointe: I would certainly be
pleased to submit the suggestion of my hon. friend to such a conference.


Mr. MILLAR:: At a later date, when we
come to the estimates, I hope to have something to say on pensions for judges and others. In view of that I would like to ask the minister for his justification of what I admit has always been the practice, namely, of giving large pensions to those who have been receiving large salaries, not to all, but picking out certain classes to which judges belong. What is the justification for giving two-thirds of the salary as an annuity?


Ernest Lapointe: It is the law at the
present time, not only in Canada but in other

Judges Act Amendment
countries. Prior to three years ago, apart from the section which gives a pension of two-thirds of their salary to judges who had been fifteen years in office or who were afflicted with some disability, we had another provision which gave them the right to their full salary as a pension after a certain number of years of service and after they reached a certain age. This provision we repealed three years ago and no such pension is now being paid to the judges of Canada, although such a provision, as I stated in my main remarks, still applies in the United States. I think we are far from being more generous to our judges than other countries are. I might show to my hon. friend the resolutions I have received from bar associations and various other bodies in Canada complaining bitterly that the judges are not receiving a sufficient salary or a sufficient pension, and that the best men at the bar decline a judgeship on that account; but I do not think that we will ask for an increase this session. However, I really believe that the present scale of pension, especially when you compare it with what is paid in other countries, is justified.


John Millar: I am afraid the- minister
has not answered my question. The minister would not justify it because it has been done here, or because it has been done in other countries. The salary the judges receive is probably less than an efficient lawyer can make, but at the same time the salary is still sufficient to enable the judge himself to provide for his old age. There must be other ground that the minister must take if he wishes to justify this. Would he not go a little deeper and attempt to justify it?


Ernest Lapointe: I must admit I would
have to change the law and reduce the pensions, and my friend has not convinced me that I should do that.


Mr. ADSHEAD:: I expected to see the hon. member for St. Lawrence-St. George rise to protest in righteous indignation against this resolution, just as he and the member for Toronto did the other night on the old age pension bill. Then he spoke of the wrongfulness of paternalism; of the desirability that people in Canada should be taught the very good lesson of thrift, to save out of their very meagre earnings sufficient to provide for their own old age; that they should not come upon this country as paupers and ask parliament to provide for them after they had passed the age limit for work. But I did not notice the hon. gentleman rise and apply the same principle in this case that he applied in the case of the old age pensions.


George Reginald Geary: May I ask which member for Toronto the hon. gentleman refers to?


Herbert Bealey Adshead: He sits here. I do not
know his constituency, but it is Mr. Hocken.


George Reginald Geary: He does not sit there.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: That' is the gentleman,
at any rate-Mr. Hocken. Both those hon. gentlemen rose and emphasized that citizens of Canada who were getting the enormous sum of fifty or sixty or seventy cents an hour should be taught the lesson of thrift, should save something out of their meagre earnings in order to provide for their own old age, and not become indigents and paupers upon the country. Here we have gentlemen getting $12,000 a year, and nobody rises to say that they should be thrifty and provide for their own old age. Nobody says that they should not be granted a pension. In the other case there was considerable difficulty in getting a provision for a pension of even ten dollars a month, and then after the old age pensioner died the authorities took power to take over his house to reooup themselves. - I do not see anything in this resolution empowering the government to take over the judge's house in order to recoup the country for the pension he receives in his lifetime. I am not exactly objecting to this resolution, but I do point out that the citizens of Canada who wield the hammer and the spade should receive a pension, and a comfortable pension just as much as these others, for their work is just as honourable and just as needful to the country as that of the judges who sit upon the Supreme court bench.


William Alves Boys: Will the proposed bill in any
way affect the quorum of the Supreme court or the quorum by consent?


Ernest Lapointe: No, it is not intended
to affect that section of the act.


William Alves Boys: I do not want to offer any
observation which is going to interfere in any way with the efficient administration of justice in Canada. I realize the importance of the Supreme court, but I do not feel that the minister has made out a case for increasing the number of the members of the court. He has said very little to warrant an increase *which is going to impose upon the country an additional burden of $12,000 a year. In my own province, and I presume it is the same in others, we have appellate courts. There are no extra judges for these courts, unless they are taken from the judges assigned to the trial courts, and if that is done, it has to be at the expense of efficiency in the trial court. At the present time, with
Judges Act Amendment

a quorum in the Supreme court of five-and I certainly think the judges should sit in an odd number, instead of an even, because it is desirable to have a majority decision-if the quorum is not being altered, I do not think the addition of one judge should be required. I do not know who it is that has asked for this legislation, whether it is the judges of the Supreme court 'themselves, because of the amount of work they have to do, 'but it would seem to me to be in order for the committee to be enlightened as to the number of cases that come before the court, to indicate whether the judges of that court have more work than can toe conveniently attended to and have not sufficient time to properly study, consider and dispose of the cases that come before them. It should be demonstrated that they cannot under present conditions do their work satisfactorily. I happen to know that in my own province there is a tremendous congestion of business at times, and I believe there is even greater necessity there for an increase in number. I am inclined to ithe view that there is greater necessity for an increase in the number of judges who now have to take care of the work of the Supreme court of Ontario, and probably the other provinces, than there is in the number of judges of the Supreme Court of Canada. With a court composed of six, with a quorum of five, and a consent quorum of four-and the work has always been done well in the -past-you will always have one extra judge, and perhaps two extra judges, to do the work of -the court. I think the minister should show the committee some very substantial reason for putting the country to the -expense of another $12,000 a year for all time to coim-e, and that w-e should be given some information as to the number of cases the judges have to deal with, and other facts to indicate that they are not able to discharge their duties efficiently without 'being overworked, before we are called upon to vote this money.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: At this hour, Mr. Chairman, I d-o not intend to discuss the resolution. There were several -matters I should like to have discussed, 'but as there will be another opportunity on the second reading of the bill, I presume-


Ernest Lapointe: Yes. Perhaps my hon.
friend would reserve his remarks for the second reading of the bill.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I -think so, because I shall
not be here this evening and would be unable to continue after six o'clock.


Ernest Lapointe: I can give to my hon.
friend from Simcoe the information he asks for when the bill is in committee.


Mr. HEAPS:: Would the minister consider
putting clauses in this old age pension scheme similar to those in the old age pension bill that we dealt with last week?


Mr. LAPOLNTE:: I shall have to look into that matter also'.


George Reginald Geary: Would the minister also
give the committee information as to how often the court is reduced in numbers owing to illness, if that is the important thing. I happen to know that it has been of a good deal of moment in the conduct of the court, and perhaps it is on account of illness more than anything else that it is desired to increase the number.


Ernest Lapointe: Yes, my hon. friend is
quite right, as I stated in my preliminary remarks; but of course judges may be ill also in the future. It has happened in recent years that the court could not sit with its numbers complete. I may say to my hon. friend from Simcoe that the number of judges who have been requested to co-me in and assist has been considerable. My hon. friend says I have not made out a strong case. I think this is a rtrong argument-and I repeat-that litigants are entitled to -have their cases before the Supreme court -heard and decided by judges having the standing of 'Supreme court judges.


William Alves Boys: I submit that is no answer. I am not speaking of the standing of the judges.


George Reginald Geary: The sickness to which I have referred may be counterbalanced by superannuation under this scheme.


William Alves Boys: Dealing with the question of
the restriction in the act, could it not be provided that future commissions should be issued on the basis of retirement at seventy-five years of age? I understand the minister says that under the provisions of the British North America Act there is no power now to compulsorily enforce retirement.


Ernest Lapointe: My hon. friend refers to judges of the Superior court?


William Alves Boys: Yes. In the commission appointing them a clause could be inserted providing that they should be retired at the age of seventy-five.


Ernest Lapointe: I am afraid it would be interfering with the British North America Act if we inserted such a clause.


William Alves Boys: Not if they accept appointment with such a provision.

Excise Act Amendment


Ernest Lapointe: However, we can continue the whole matter when the bill comes back.
Resolutions reported, read the second time,
and concurred in. Mr. Lapointe thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill 139, to amend the Judges Act, Bill No. 140, to amend the Exchequer Court Act, and Bill No. 141, to amend the Supreme Court Act.
Motion agreed to and bills read the first time.


William Alves Boys: Second reading at the next
sitting of the House?


Ernest Lapointe: Yes.
At six o'clock the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



EXCISE ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Hon. W. D. EULER (Minister of Customs) moved the second reading of Bill No. 119, to amend the Excise Act.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Marcil in the chair.
Section 1 agreed to.
On section 2-Forfeited goods include vessel, vehicle, etc.
Henry Herbert Stevens: The underlined words are the only changes?


Mr. EULER:: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 3 agreed to.
On section 4-Penalty.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This is merely to increase the penalty from $100 to $200?


William Daum Euler: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Section 5 agreed to.
On section 6-Vessels included in things seized as forfeited.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This is to meet the rum running epidemic.


William Daum Euler: It merely adds the word
"vessels" to bring the section in line with other sections of the act.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 7 to 13 inclusive agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways) moved that the House go into committee to consider the following proposed resolution:
1.	That it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide or arrange through a company to be formed under the Companies Act, for a mail, passenger and freight sendee, in accordance with the West Indies Trade agreement, 1926.
2.	That the securities to be issued by the company may be guaranteed by the Dominion as to principal and interest to an amount not exceeding, without the authority of parliament an aggregate of $10,000,000.
3.	That the proceeds of sale or disposition of the securities shall be deposited to the credit of the Minister of Finance; and the entire stock ownership of the company shall be issued to His Majesty in the right of the Dominion in consideration of the guarantee.
4.	That any of the boats now operated by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, Limited, may be transferred to the company on a reasonable valuation and on terms to be approved by the governor in council, and if transferred to be operated by individual companies, such companies shall issue to the company all their capital stock to indemnify the crown against liability in respect of the guarantee.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Marcil in the chair.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This is a very important
resolution, and one to which I personally must take strong objection. I will briefly outline my reasons for so doing, although when the minister brings down the bill it may contain safeguarding features which will in some measure meet my objections. With regard to the first paragraph, which states that it is expedient to bring in a measure to provide for mail and passenger service and so on to the West Indies, to that I can have no objection; we certainly should implement our undertakings and arrange to take care of that traffic. But to the suggestion that it be done through a company to be formed under the Companies Act, and to the next paragraph which provides for a guarantee to such company in principal and interest to an extent of $10,000,000, I object. Naturally I am not in possession of all the facts, but I recall an announcement appearing in the press a few days ago to the effect that a couple of gentlemen, Mr. Raymond and Mr. McDougall, had organized a company to take over Vickers
10S6

West Indies Trade Agreement
Limited in the city of Montreal for the purpose of building these vessels. Vickers Limited is an old, well-established firm; I presume that in recent years they must have had some difficulty in making a return on capital invested, since shipbuilding has certainly not been a very prosperous business in Canada, but these well known gentlemen could not be properly classified, I think, as eminent shipbuilders. However, they have formed a company for the purpose of building these ships and now we find the government coming forward with a proposal in which they guarantee the principal and' interest to the extent of 110,000,000. I rather think I overhear the minister say it has nothing to do with this bill, but there is a rather touching synchronization, to put it mildly.
Whether or not that group is behind this venture, the fact remains that it is proposed to guarantee $10,000,000 of principal and interest of a company which shall do certain things. Then if you follow the resolution a step further you will find that it is also giving power to turn over some of the ships of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, on a valuation and terms to be approved by the Governor in Council; that is section 4. It is also stated) that the capital stock is to be turned over to the crown as an indemnity against liability in respect of the guarantee. We have the Canadian Government Merchant Marine owming the ships and the government owning the company; now we propose to pass legislation which will turn those ships now owned by the government over to another company whose stock shall be guaranteed by the government. Thus, unless the resolution be explained in some manner certainly contrary to its present wording, an amazing situation is disclosed. How we can justify to the people of Canada the creation of a new company or companies and the guaranteeing of new stock and new capital for the purpose of taking over property which we already own is beyond me. I know there are those who criticize the present Canadian Government Merchant Marine and say that it was not a good venture and so forth, but the fact of the matter is -that we have suffered all the loss a country can possibly suffer through a venture of this kind. That is history now; that is behind us. An opportunity presents itself to make the Canadian 'Government Merchant Marine pay by simply utilizing the machinery we now have; we can construct new ships if necessary or we can use the present ships to give this service without creating any new company and without guaranteeing capital for any private group. So without having the details of the bill be-

fore me I say I am absolutely opposed to this proposal and particularly to section 2 of the resolution. I hope the committee will become thoroughly seized of the significance of that section, which reads:
That the securities to be issued by the company may be guaranteed by the Dominion as to principal and interest to an amount not exceeding, without the authority of parliament, an aggregate of $10,000,000.
The plain and simple reading of that section is that the government is asking for the right to guarantee for principal and interest the capital of a new company to the extent of $10,000,000, and it is intimated in the words "without the authority of parliament" that they expect the company to come back later and ask for a further guarantee. That is, if the $10,000,000 is not sufficient the company may ask for a further amount to 'be guaranteed. In other words, certain gentlemen unnamed in the resolution, without the investment of one dollar, are to get $10,000,000 of Dominion government money, because a bond guaranteed by the government is just the same as money; any security guaranteed by this government is equal to the government's own security. We are dipping into the treasury of Canada and giving this companv, whose personnel is unnamed in the resolution, $10,000,000 of the money of Canada to organize a new company to render a service which we already have an organization capable of performing. It is a most astounding proposal, and speaking for myself it is my intention as we proceed to scrutinize every step as closely as possible. At this time, however, I wish to register my opposition to the proposal as disclosed in the resolution.


Herbert Bealey Adshead: May I ask a question?


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps my friend would permit me to make an explanation to the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens), which would clear matters up. I am pleased that my hon. friend said that if the resolution meant what he thought it meant he would' oppose it; I can assure him that when he examines the bill based on the resolution, a great deal of what he describes as astounding will vanish. As to guaranteeing the bonds of gentlemen unnamed and thereby making them 'a present of $10,000,000 of the credit of this country, there is absolutely no such intention. The guarantee will be given and the shares will be held by the Minister of Finance in the same manner as the shares of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine and the shares of the Canadian National Railway Company are held. The $10,000,000 guarantee given to this institution will be in fact given to the

West Indies Trade Agreement
Canadian National Railway System. The manner of dealing with it is rendered necessary by the nature of the business itself. My hon. friend is, I am sure, not aware of the fact that each one of the ships now operated by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine is operated by a separate company. A system such as this, I am given to understand, has proved to be the most satisfatcory way of operating steamships, so that criticism of the proposal from the point of view of extending the guarantee of the government of Canada to private interests entirely falls to the ground. There is no private interest involved in this proposal in any way, shape or form. A new corporation is being established1-indeed it may >be a number of new corporations, one for each ship-in order to deal specifically with the West Indies service, which is a new service demanding special types of ships and one which we desire to keep absolutely separate in operation and accounting from the ordinary Canadian Government Merchant Marine. It is desirable in view of the West Indies trade agreement that the shipping feature of it should be a thing apart from the general operation of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine, especially as one of the stipulations of the treaty itself is that the colonies concerned, the various West Indian colonies, should themselves contribute a subsidy for the maintenance of this particular steamship line. Hence it is desirable to incorporate it separately from the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. I think that deals with the main objection advanced by my hon, friend.
As is well known, the government of Canada has for many years been paying a subsidy for the operation of a steamship service to the West Indies. The Minister of Trade and Commerce will be here-he has just come in now-and he will deal with the trade treaty and the subsidy features of this matter. Suffice it for me to say that the government has on two occasions, if not three, advertised for subsidy tenders from existing steamship lines for operation of the service called for by the West Indies trade agreement. The results of our call for tenders will be dealt with in detail by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and I feel sure that when those facts are before it the House will agree that the best way of dealing with this West Indies situation is through the medium of our own Canadian National organization, and the financing of a government owned steamship service to the West Indies under the provisions of the trade agreement.
What is proposed is to form a separate company for operating purposes, for the
reasons I have just outlined. In order to live up to the agreement it is necessary for us to put into operation to the eastern group of inlands a fortnightly service, passenger, mail and freight, from Canadian ocean ports all the year round, calling each way at Bermuda, St. Kitts, Nevis, Antigua, Montserrat, Dominica St. Lucia, Barbados, St. Vincent, Grenada, Tobago, Trinidad and Demerara; and also a fortnightly freight service from Canadian river ports in summer and Canadian ocean ports in winter, calling at St. Kitts, Antigua, Barbados, Trinidad and Demerara. That is for the eastern group.
For the western group our treaty obligations call for a fortnightly passenger, mail and freight service between St. Lawrence ports in summer and such Canadian ocean ports in winter as may be designated by the Canadian government, calling both ways at Bermuda, the Bahamas, and Kingston, Jamaica; and also a fortnightly freight service between the said Canadian ports and Kingston, Jamaica, direct, alternating with the previous service; also a fortnightly passenger and freight service between Kingston, Jamaica, and British Honduras, to be operated by a small steamer connecting at Kingston with the passenger vessels. It is proposed to give these services to the eastern groups by operating three passenger, mail and freight motor ships of 5,800 tons deadweight, 14 knots speed, with accommodation for 1001 first class passengers, 30 second class passengers, 100 steerage or deck passengers, and cold storage facilities. Freight services for the eastern group will be operated by four freight vessels of 4,300 tons deadweight, speed about 10 knots, and at present the property of the crown.
I may here dispose of another point that was troubling my hon. friend from Vancouver Centre. Any vessels which are disposed of by the merchant marine to this new company for the operation of the West Indies service may be paid for out of the proceeds of guaranteed bonds, and the amount so paid may be paid to the Minister of Finance and will constitute a reduction to that extent of the present liability of the merchant marine. Or the notes held by the Minister of Finance may be simply transferred to apply to the new company.


Peter McGibbon: Is it the intention to
have new boats built, either directly or indirectly?


Charles Avery Dunning: If my hon. friend will
possess his soul in patience I will cover that point in a moment.

West Indies Trade Agreement


Peter McGibbon: Is it the intention to transfer these vessels at the ridiculous prices at. which previous vessels have been disposed of?


Charles Avery Dunning: I will deal with that
point also in a few moments. For the western group it is proposed to provide two passenger, mail and freight motor ships, of 5,800 tons deadweight, of 14 knots speed, with accommodation for 100 first class passengers, refrigeration for 70,000 stems of bananas, and cold storage for Canadian and West Indian products. For service in the western group freight service the Canadian Fisher and the Canadian Forester will be converted into oil burners and be fitted with refrigeration for
50.000	stems of bananas. The speed of these two vessels is about 10 knots.
For the third service of the western group, connecting as I said a little while ago with the passenger service at Kingston which I mentioned previously, a steamer of about
1.000	tons deadweight will be required, with a speed of 10 knots, accommodation for about 20 first class passengers, and also cold storage fa cilities.
Now as to how these vessel requirements are to be met: A careful examination has been made of the estimated cost of building. The services to which I have just referred will require the provision of five new vessels. Five of the vessels to which I have referred will require to be new vessels, and vessels of a special type for this particular class of service. We find of course that these vessels can be built most cheaply upon the continent of Europe. Next in order of cheapness would come building in Great Britain; and building in Canada itself would be more expensive than building either in Great Britain or on the continent. I will not weary the House with figures respecting the continental costs, bu the costs of the five new vessels if built in Great Britain, including calculations for financing the bond issues, which are the same in each case, would be $S,186,500, and in Canada for the five vessels, $9,280,000.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Where does the minister
got his figures for Canada?


Charles Avery Dunning: The merchant marine
gets approximations of what the cost would be from naval architects and those engaged in the shipbuilding business in Canada.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Have the different yards
such as Wallace, the yard in Victoria, the Vickers yard and others been asked to give figures in connection wtih this?


James Malcolm: The compilation of costs is based entirely upon wage conditions and material costs on the continent as against the cost in Great Britain and material and labour costs in Canada as against the cost in Great Britain, the average increase being shown over the average British figure. It is an estimate.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I appreciate the answer,
but it is not an answer to the question I asked. Have the various shipbuilding concerns of Canada been requested to give figures in connection with this matter?


Charles Avery Dunning: We have not yet, of
course, reached the Stage of calling for tenders or anything of that kind. I am now endeavouring to give the committee the best information we have, based on the relative costs as between building all the vessels in Great Britain on the one hand and building them all in Canada on the other. I will in a moment come to what we base our calculations upon.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The figures are estimates
in each case?


Charles Avery Dunning: Of course the figures are estimates. Under prevailing conditions it would be impossible to get a firm bid on building a ship. We have to secure authority from parliament to proceed and many other factors are also involved.


Mr. ERNST:: I understood the minister
to say that tenders would be called for at a later date. Have estimates been supplied by any of the Canadian shipbuilding yards, say for example the Halifax shipyard?


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not think there has been any definite bid by any shipyard, but the Canadian Government Merchant Marine have, I believe, discussed the matter with all of those who might reasonably be expected to be affected in the preparation of the estimated figures for this work. I really wanted to be in a position to give the committee as close an idea -as could be given, without actually calling for tenders, of what the relative costs would (be of building these ships in Great Britain and building them in Canada, or partly one and partly the other. It will facilitate matters a great deal if hon. members will permit me to finish my general outline and then ask questions, because they are really anticipating things which I shall have to say during the Course of my remarks.
Other factors which enter into this matter are 'those of time and also the type of vessel required which is a special type for this particular class of trade. Account being taken of the cost factor, the special type of vessel

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factor, particularly the special type of refrigeration and also the time factor, our present calculation is based on having two of these vessels built in Great Britain and three of them in Canada. We doubt if we can get sufficiently quick delivery of the whole five vessels from Canadian shipyards, and in any event it will take considerable time to have these vessels constructed either in Canada or in Great Britain. Regard being bad to all these factors, the advice of the officers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine to the government is that two of these boats should be built in Great Britain and three in Canada.


Henry Herbert Stevens: With ail due deference to the minister's request of a moment ago, I think this is the time to ask this question: Will the government call for tenders from Canadian shipyards for the construction of these ships? If so, while one shipyard might not be able to make delivery of the whole five, it certainly is not reasonable to say that all the yards in Canada would be unable to make delivery of the five ships. :So I ask the minister:	Is it the intention to call for tenders
from all the shipyards giving them an equal opportunity?


Charles Avery Dunning: For all the ships?


Henry Herbert Stevens: And if in case of a
diversity of building which there probably will be and which, we hope, there will be, will the other shipyards be given the refusal before the orders are sent out of Canada?


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not intend at this
stage to tie the hands of either the government or of the directors of the Canadian National quite as tightly as an affirmative answer to my hon. friend's question would do.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Perhaps the minister will
give me an answer to this question.


Charles Avery Dunning: I wish the hon. member
would let me answer his previous one first.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister has answered that one. He has said no. Has any tentative arrangement or understanding been arrived at with any one yard as regards the construction of three ships?


Charles Avery Dunning: Positively no, and there
I want to refute as strongly as I can the impression given by my hon. friend in a previous question that there is some sinister arrangement between the government and certain interests that they will get the contract for building certain ships.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I said that it synchronized.
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Charles Avery Dunning: I have no knowledge
whatever of any connection between any reorganization of the Canadian Vickers and the proposal now before the committee. My hon. friend to-night brought it to my attention for the first time. I should think it would be a matter of pride to Canadians that Canadians are themselves in a position to-day to get financial control of one of our great shipbuilding institutions rather than to have it abroad, even in Great Britain; but as regards this involving any arrangement, implied or of any other kind whatsoever, for building these ships, there is absolutely nothing in it. As regards myself or the government, there has not been in connection with this matter any arrangement with any special group or any shipyard anywhere as to getting contracts to build these ships. May I express the hope that if the Canadian Vickers or any other Canadian company are capable of building these ships economically and well and can demonstrate to the management of the Canadian merchant marine that they are capable of doing so, they will get the business?


William Gordon Ernst: All five?


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot say all five. I cannot commit the government at this time.


William Gordon Ernst: Why not?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have already stated
that in the judgment of those who are managing this business the best way, from the point of view of Canada, from the point of view of the shipping company to be formed, which is the Canadian people, having regard to the necessities involved in the special types of ships required, is to have two of them built in Great Britain.


William Gordon Ernst: May I ask the minister a
question?


Charles Avery Dunning: Well I am long-suffering.


William Gordon Ernst: I do not wish to impose upon the minister, but I want to ask him if one were placed in each of five different yards, if they could not be built just as quickly in Canada as they could in Great Britain?


James Malcolm: Can my hon. friend tell
me where in Canada he can find five shipbuilding yards that can handle ships of this
type?


William Gordon Ernst: I know three, and I know
several that are capable of putting two ships on the stocks at once.


Charles Avery Dunning: Perhaps to me, not being a maritime man, a ship is a ship, and I presume my hon. friend is trying to tell me that any shipyard can build any ship.



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William Gordon Ernst: No, I did not wish to say
that.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The minister is not fair in that at all. We have very excellent shipyards in Canada. I can name some on the Pacific coast. There are two in Victoria. In Vancouver the Wallace shipyards are capable of turning out any class of ship you want. A year ago they built one of the most modern and up-to-date ships for the Canadian Pacific for their northern coastwise trade, a passenger ship, almost as large as one of these, and very similar to it.


Charles Avery Dunning: I am not questioning
that. What about the other yard on the Pacific coast?


Henry Herbert Stevens: There is one in Victoria, under Charles V. Spratt, which built ships during the war. Then there is the Yarrow yard in Victoria, a branch of the Yarrow shipyards in Great Britain, furnished with the very best equipment, and where the very best of workmanship is given. These yards are capable of building these ships.


Charles Avery Dunning: Any of them?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Any of them, or any ship twice the size, if you want it; there is no question about that. What alarmed me was this:	The minister said a moment ago: We
have arranged to build three of these ships in Canada and two in Great Britain.


Charles Avery Dunning: No.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Unquestionably the minister said that.


Charles Avery Dunning: If I said that, it was
certainly not my intention to convey the impression that anything had been arranged, but that on the basis of the examination made, this was the present view of, those responsible for the management of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. If I conveyed the impression that anything was definitely arranged I made an error, because I immediately stated in answer to my hon. friend that nothing definite had been arranged.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I did not say definite; I said that impression was given.


William Gordon Ernst: Might I interrupt?


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: I would say_____


John Frederick Johnston: The rules of the House should be followed in committee as much as possible, and when a minister of the crown desires first to make a statement which will be subject to cross-examination afterwards,
I think it is only fair to allow him to make his statement.


William Anderson Black: I did not purpose cross-examining him. I merely wanted to make an explanation in regard to the shipyards in Canada. When the ships were being built m Canada which now form the merchant marine, the Halifax shipyards, I believe, turned out the best ships composing that fleet. Persons with knowledge of other shipyards can speak for them, but I can assure the minister that two ships can be built by the shipbuilding company operating in Halifax as quickly as one. and I think more cheaply than a single ship. That would dispose of two of the five.


Charles Avery Dunning: Now, Mr. Chairman, I
will try to get on. Apparently it is a mistake to be frank with the House in respect to such information as has been secured in connection with a matter of this kind, because it immediately raises all sorts of questions of local patronage, and so forth.


Henry Herbert Stevens: No, that is not correct.


Charles Avery Dunning: Frankly I did not look at the matter from that point of view at all. I was attempting to get information upon which the best judgment of the merchant marine officials and of the government itself, which must pass on all contracts over S500,-000 in value, could be exercised, having regard to the known cheaper construction in Great Britain and also to the desirability from a business point of view of getting these boats built as cheaply as possible consistent with other national interests. Consideration should also be given to the desirability-and this concerns all of us-of doing as much business in Canada as it is humanly possible to do.
I might point this out, however, in connection with all government undertakings of this nature, that we are entering into competition with institutions owning ships and which buy in the cheapest market! If we ignore altogether the necessity of keeping the capital cost as low as possible we shall have as a consequence higher fixed charges than a private company would have operating under similar conditions. I do not want to attach overwhelming importance to that side of the question, but I do say in all seriousness that it must be taken into account when we come finaiiy to the point of deciding where these sh,ps shall be built and have before us information as to what can and what can not be economically done in Canada.
I was merely giving to the committee-much to my own trouble, apparently -the best information that we have been able to gather up to now in regard to the whole program of construction. Of course I

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had to have something upon which to base figures to present to the committee in connection with the resolution we are now discussing. I wrnnted to know whether it would require to be eight, nine, ten or fifteen million dollars, and in order to get that information I requested the officers of the merchant marine to go into the matter very carefully and to give me their conclusions. I eliminate from consideration altogether continental-built ships, although a very considerable saving could be made in that direction because the continental cost is below the British building cost.
I have had so many interruptions that I hardly know how far I had proceeded with my explanation, Mr. Chairman. In concluding for the present, I can only say this, that so far as the building of the ships is concerned, we on this side of the House and the government are as much concerned as anyone else can possibly be in securing for Canadians all the work and all the business possible having due regard to all other proper national considerations. I repeat, there is no arrangement of any sort or kind at the present time existing, or in contemplation to give any or all of the shipbuilding work to any one or all of the concerns in Canada. I had no idea at all, save from the story I read in the newspaper to which my hon. friend refers, that there was any change in contemplation in the control of Canadian Vickers, but I presume, even although a few Liberals may be interested in Canadian Vickers, that this should not be a reason why that company should be debarred opportunity of getting some of this business on equal terms with any other company. So far as we are concerned at least, the Canadian Vickers or any other institution will be given every opportunity to demonstrate that they can do this work for the people of Canada economically and well.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend has drawn in the question of buying in the cheapest market, and the question, as he says, of local patronage. We did not raise the question of' local patronage in regard to this matter at all.
The minister also said very distinctly that we had arranged or proposed or used some form of speech conveying the impression that the government were going to build three ships in Canada and two in Great Britain. Then we raised the question why they could not all be built in Canada. The minister said that he was not very familiar with maritime matters, and he questioned whether there were .yards in Canada that could build these ships in time.
32649-69i


Charles Avery Dunning: The particular type of
ship required.


Henry Herbert Stevens: We then undertook to
draw to his attention the fact that there are shipyards in Canada quite capable of building these ships. The question of price I am not discussing at the moment. But to say that wc could not build these five ships in Canada
is,	I was going to say, sheer nonsense, because there are yards in Halifax, there is a yard in Montreal, and there are yards on the Pacific coast capable of building these ships-one, two, three, four or five of them.
I do not think at the moment that there is a yard able to build five and turn them out all together. My hon. friend from Halifax (Mr. Black) refers to a firm in that city which can lay down two at a time. We have the Coughlan firm in Vancouver which can lay down four at a time. We have yards which can do this work. It is not going to help the minister to insinuate that we are asking for local patronage. We are not asking for local patronage at all. I think all the yards in Canada should have the privilege of figuring on the cost of these ships.


Charles Avery Dunning: I will see that they do, but they will have to demonstrate that they are capable of producing the type of ship required. I cannot take my hon. friend's word for that as a shipbuilder, any more than I would ask him to take mine.


Henry Herbert Stevens: I am not going to ask my hon. friend to take my word, but I am not going to be satisfied with this proviso that they must be able to build the ships to suit, or something of that character. I do not think that should be held ever the shipyards of Canada. Many hon. members in this House know that these yards are capable of turning out any class of ship of this character. These ships are not very difficult to build.


Charles Avery Dunning: Does my hon. friend
know exactly what special type of ship is required?


Henry Herbert Stevens: If my hon. friend asks me to give him the specifications for the construction of the ships, I say no, I cannot do
it.	But I know enough about ships to know that this type of ship generally is a semicoastwise traffic ship to carry a hundred or a hundred and fifty passengers and a cargo- part cargo and part passengers.


Charles Avery Dunning: It is far more than that.

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Henry Herbert Stevens: If my hon. friend should ask me whether these yards can turn out ships like the Majestic or the Leviathan, I say no, but they are capable of turning out this class of ship.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend does not correctly describe the type of ship.


Henry Herbert Stevens: How can I, if I have not the specifications? I know the general type. My hon. friend says that three are to be motor ships, and then some of them are to be changed into oil burners. What I want, to know-and I think the committee is entitled to this information-is whether the Canadian shipyards will be given an opportunity to figure on the five ships before a contract is entered into for their construction outside of Canada. I submit that the bids should be open bids on the open market, called for without any strings attached. As regards buying in the cheapest market, that is another matter. The minister disposed of that by telling us that the decision was to build three m Canada and two overseas, so that he is not going to buy in the cheapest market. I will not enter into that question at present. Some of my hon. friends to my left applauded the suggestion as to buying in the cheapest market, but there is something more than that. Here we have the shipyards, the labour and the material in Canada, all idle. If the ships are built in Canada it is going to contribute something to the welfare of the country, and we would like to have the assurance that every shipyard in Canada will have the opportunity to make a bid for the construction of these ships.


James Malcolm: I think I can offer a
word which might allay the fears of my hon. friends opposite. I was not in the chamber and did not hear the explanation offered to the House by the hon. Minister of Railways, but I may say that these boats are of a special type. Anyone who has followed the Canada-West Indies conferences knows that the question of refrigeration is an important feature in connection with the steamship service. It is necessary that ships for this service be equipped with a special refrigerator capacity, quite out of keeping with the ordinary ships of their size and type. In making the estimate which has just been given by the Minister of Railways, the officers of the merchant marine, after surveying the field and after consultation with Canadian engineers on naval construction and with British engineers, were surprised to discover that it appeared quite possible to build three ships
fMr. Dunning.]
in Canada and have them completed within the fifteen months stipulated in the treaty. They did feel however that two of the boats, on account of the expenditure which would be necessary for installing refrigeration, could be built cheaper in Great Britain. I may say that the government waived the point in regard to the cheapest construction, which was German construction, and said that the ships must be built in Great Britain or Canada. When the time comes for the tenders to go out, I think my hon. friends, who seem so zealous for some shipyards for which they are anxious to get business, will find that some of those shipyards will not be able to compete on some of the types of boats, and they themselves would not be willing to award the contract to such companies. When the specifications are submitted to all Canadian and British builders it may be found possible to build four boats in Canada and one in Great Britain. It might be possible-but I am inclined to think not, from what I am informed-for us to build the whole five in Canada, but I think the minister's figures are based on the best estimates obtainable as to the probable outcome of the tenders. I want the House to know that we are asking for a sum of money which we believe will be the probable amount, based entirely on estimates, but which amount may be somewhat in excess of requirements, or may be less than the requirements. In any event it is as close a figure as the government can arrive at now with the knowledge it has and1 the knowledge the merchant marine possesses.


Mr. PARENT:: Is it not a fact that a
contract has already been entered into with a firm in England for the building of two of these ships?


James Malcolm: No, the government has never discussed the question of the cost of the boats with any private company at any time. The Minister of Railways, the Minister of Finance and myself have turned over to the Canadian National Steamship Company the gathering of the information required, and their officers in Great Britain and their officers in Canada have surveyed the field, assisted by naval architects and marine engineers in different parts of Canada, and their estimates represent, we feel sure, the best information available. The tenders for the construction of the ships have not been called for. No firm has been asked to submit a definite estimate of cost. They are pure estimates based on the cost of the boats in the British yard, with the necessary increase added, based

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on the estimates of naval architects in Canada. Nobody has been promised that a tender would go to the Pacific coast or to any other place.


John Evans: This is perhaps one of the
most interesting problems that has come before the House for some time. If we are going to be a nation engaging in the carrying trade of the world, carrying our experts to foreign countries, it is necessary that we buy in the cheapest market. My hon. friend to my right smiles at that statement, and of course the argument is advanced regarding the Canadian workman. Why, they say, even if it does cost more in this country let us give the work to our own workmen.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


John Evans: Yes, and some of these same gentlemen will at once give their approval to a scheme involving $10,000,000 in connection with immigration to defeat the very end of the workman himself, for whom they are pleading for better wages.


Mr. BELL (Hamilton):: When did we
ever do that?


John Evans: You are doing it this year.


Leslie Gordon Bell: When?


John Evans: You have done it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Speak for yourself, John.


John Evans: Yes, I will speak for myself. We shall spend that amount during 1926 before the accounts are all in, and that for the purpose of bringing workmen to Canada from other countries. Is not that calculated to defeat the purposes of organized labour itself? Our friends from the maritimes want to carry their products in the cheapest way possible down to the West Indies and other markets of the world, and now hon. gentlemen would load this scheme with $1,000,000 of overhead on which interest would have to be paid. This would spell failure for the whole undertaking from the very beginning.
This scheme must be carried out as economically as possible; we must do it in the cheapest way we can. If hon. gentlemen will read history, and only recent history at that, they will see how costly it has been to this country to follow the trade policy of driving out of line with world prices the cost of every enterprise we undertake. The United States some years ago determined to engage in the carrying trade. I remember they were in the market for some of the largest vessels afloat
and they purchased the City of Paris, the City of York and similar ships and entered into competition with Great Britain. What happened? Before the Great war came on they were out of the running as a marine nation. Then during the war they subsidized or built a large merchant marine, hundreds of the vessels of which have already been scrapped as a result of that same policy we are following in Canada to-day, of driving prices up out of all proportion to world costs. These vessels have been scrapped and the United States is doing little in the way of transportation. I say this scheme must not be loaded with a million dollars of overhead which is not needed. If that is done failure is inevitable from the outset.


Leslie Gordon Bell: Would the hon.
gentleman proceed to the logical conclusion of his proposition and invite the cheapest continental tenders for the purpose of saving the maximum of money?


John Evans: Certainly; I would go so far.


Leslie Gordon Bell: And eliminate the English?


John Evans: Yes, eliminate the English
and get the boats built in the cheapest market possible. The scheme can be a success only if we follow that policy. We have followed a false policy in this country all along, and I am glad that the question has come before the House at last in such an acute form as -this. The farmers of the country have preached the other doctrine for many years, for they have been confronted with this very problem, and to-day agriculture is bankrupt because of the trade policy tc^ which we have adhered. When brought face to face with a question like this we should consider our ways and be . wise.


Thomas Cantley: Is it the intention of the government to have the Canadian merchant marine build the new fleet?


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.


Thomas Cantley: As regards the type of
ships to be built, the minister did not give us sufficient information on which to base a reasonable judgment as to whether they could be built in Canada or not. The two larger motor ships, I understood him to say, would be of 5,800 tons deadweight, with a stated speed and certain accommodation for passengers, together with refrigerator space.


Charles Avery Dunning: Yes.

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Thomas Cantley: The Minister of Trade and Commerce rather threw out a challenge to us on this side to name five yards in Canada which could build the ships referred to. There is no difficulty in meeting that challenge because there are two yards on the Pacific coast, one in Halifax, one in Levis and Vickers, in Montreal. Leaving out of account for the moment the two ships Which I might describe as capital ships, the other vessels are of a type of which we have built scores in Canada already. The two capital ships, the Minister of Trade and Commerce tells us, are of a special type that could not be built in this country, because of lack of refrigerating .machinery. As a matter of fact, in the case of ships built on the Clj'de or anywhere else in Great Britain, the installation of the refrigerating machinery is put in by the refrigerating company, and the same thing could be done in this country. That, therefore, presents no great obstacle. As regard? the cost of ships built on the continent, the minister did not state the difference between such ships and those built in Great Britain.


Charles Avery Dunning: I discarded the continental ships.


Thomas Cantley: Quite properly so. I might refer the minister to the experience of Newfoundland. The government there, about two years ago, bought a vessel which was built on the continent-the Cariboo, plying between Sydney and Port aux Basques. She was built at about 8 per cent under the cost of construction in Great Britain at that time, and the Newfoundland government have never ceased to regret having purchased the ship from a continental yard. There are various reasons for their dissatisfytion with the vessel, but one in particular I may mention. All the measurements in connection with the machinery are metric. There is nothing standardized about the vessel corresponding with the standards obtaining in this country or in Great Britain, and when a piece, be it valve, piston ring or boiler tube ferule, is wanted there is only one thing the Newfoundland government can do, and that is to send to the yard where the Ship was built and wait until the necessary valve, ring or other part be made and brought overseas. We cannot afford to do that. We would not do it, nor would Newfoundland do it again.


Charles Avery Dunning: That is right.


Thomas Cantley: The minister referred to single ship companies and some question was raised as to why it was desirable for vessels to be operated under this system. Single ship

companies exist for the simple reason that the operation of vessels in this manner eliminates part of the obligation of the risk attendant on collision.


Charles Avery Dunning: That information might be given to my hon. friend's colleague from Vancouver Centre who wanted it.


Thomas Cantley: I thought the minister was not quite sure about it himself. If I own half a dozen ships and one gets into a collision, should her value be inadequate to meet the damage accruing, the whole of my fleet becomes liable. If on the other hand I own ten vessels and they are individually operated and controlled, in the event of one of them getting into trouble she is solely liable for the damage; the others will not be called upon to contribute. With that object in view, practically all fleets are operated by single ship companies.
Now to come to the Fisher and the Forester, which I understood the minister to say would be reconditioned. I am not quite sure whether or not I understood the minister correctly.


Charles Avery Dunning: In addition to the building program the Canadian Fisher and Canadian Forester would be reconditioned in Canada.


Thomas Cantley: That is what I understood. Now I would like to point out that the Canadian Fisher and Canadian Forester as originally built were not intended for the West Indian trade at all, but after they were completed they were reconditioned at a very considerable cost in order to fit them for that service. The passenger accommodation there installed on those ships was entirely inadequate, and the cost of reconditioning was out of all proportion to their capacity as passenger vessels. I doubt very much the advantage to accrue from reconditioning these ships again.


Charles Avery Dunning: Not for passenger service but for freight service.


Thomas Cantley: Will the passenger accommodation be taken out?


Charles Avery Dunning: It is not intended to use them for the passenger service.


Thomas Cantley: Will the minister be good enough to tell us what it is proposed to do with them? I am simply asking for information ; I am not -criticizing, but if I can I want to get a correct idea of what the government has in view.

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Charles Avery Dunning: They are to be converted into oil burners and fitted with refrigeration for 50,000 stems of bananas.


Thomas Cantley: Now am I to understand that the present passenger accommodation will be taken out?


Charles Avery Dunning: I cannot positively say that; that will be after the new boats are put in service, of course.


Thomas Cantley: Getting down to the difference in cost of Canadian built over British built-ships, it is practically a matter of 12 per cent, or $1,094,000?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is right.


Thomas Cantley: As the minister has
explained, these are estimates; they are not actual figures and as a matter of fact we do not know what the difference will be, although I fancy his estimate is fairly correct. If that be so, I submit that it is not an excessive price to ,pay for having these ships built in our own country by our own men. I do not need to elaborate that; everyone knows exactly what I mean. I think we have some national pride still; we did splendid work during the war in the construction of vessels and did a great deal to save the situation at that time. The yards are already in existence, as I pointed out to the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm); men are in this country who can do the work, and we can build just as good, able and serviceable vessels as can be built anywhere, at a reasonable advance over the cost of those built in the old-established British yards where they have many advantages. The senior member for Halifax (Mr. Black) referred to the possibility of building two ships at Halifax and the advantage in building two ships there rather than one, and he was correct; two ships can be built as readily as one, there being several berths available there, with the added advantage that the overhead would be cut in two, and in a matter of this kind the overhead is a very considerable item. I would also point out that I understand the Levis yard has a contract to-day to build two passenger ships which are to be fully equal in power, speed and accommodation to these vessels. True they are river boats; still as to cost and equipment, they will compare favourably with the two capital ships referred to. So far as these small boats are concerned there is not the slightest difficulty in building them in any of a half dozen points on the Atlantic coast of Canada, and I hope when the matter is finally dealt with by the minister he will take into consideration the fact that these boats
can all be built in Canada with a very considerable advantage to us from various points of view. Those advantages will not only consist of the employment of so many men, but when the ships are in operation it will be found an enormous advantage to have them in close contact with the yards where they were built; if the minister had as much experience in operating vessels as some other hon. members of this House have had he would be glad when replacements and repairs are needed to have the contractors as close to the operating base of the ships as possible, and that for obvious reasons. I congratulate him on the program he has brought down; I hope he will be able to give us further information very soon and that the details in regard to the ships, their power and equipment with the other facts which must be put before any party tendering, whether in the old country or in Canada, will be made available to all builders as early as possible in order that they may have ample time to make their calculations and submit their estimates to the department.


Mr. MacLAREN:: I do not think sufficiently definite information has been given, and naturally so, to form much of an opinion regarding where these ships should be built. Il we had the contracts before us we might be able to say something more definite; if we knew how many Canadian firms were prepared to tender it would also help in forming an opinion. Of course the minister does not pretend to give us that definite information at present, but at a later stage I presume he will give the House the full details, when we may discuss the matter with more advantage. It may be that further investigation will show that the ships may be built here in less time and with greater skill than is apparent at present, but in any event I think it is clear that the desire of this House and the desire of the people of Canada would be that our own shipbuilding yards be used to the fullest extent. I believe many of us welcome the proposal of a new and improved West Indies service; it' will aid in the extension of import and export trade of our country. There is however, one question I would like to ask the minister. Tenders were called for in connection with the West Indian service, and they were found to be too high to be considered. May I ask what is the estimated saving between the tenders for that service and the present proposal of building and owning the ships ourselves?


Charles Avery Dunning: As I said before taking
my seat last, I was not quite sure on account of the number of questions, just what point

West Indies Trade Agreement
I had reached in the statement I made at the outset. I now find that I have omitted to mention one very important factor. We drifted into a discussion, quite properly of course, on the question of building the Ship3 in Canada or building them abroad, and so got away from what is after all one of the major questions in a proposal of this kind. That is, how do we expect it to pay? What is going to be the financial result of these operations so far as we can see it, regardless of where we build the vessels? Once the vessels are built the problem will be a matter of operation. After duly weighing all considerations and calling for tenders, on two if not three occasions-the Minister of Trade and Commerce will deal with that phase of the matter, because it is his department which handles subsidies-we have decided that this is a better method of dealing with the situation than paying subsidies to private corporations for giving the service called for under the treaty. In so doing it has been necessary to examine the probable results, and again I can only present estimated figures. Naturally as we are not in the business yet, we can only judge of the probable results from our experience in operating our present West Indies service, and such information as we can secure otherwise. On the basis of building two of the vessels in Great Britain and three in Canada, reconditioning the other two in Canada, and providing for a twenty year bond issue which would be retired through the medium of an annual sinking fund of five per cent, thus involving that the country would become the owner free of mortgage of the ships in twenty years, whatever value may be left in them at that time; allowing also for the subsidies to be paid by the various West Indian colonies, which amount to $227,950 per annum all told and which would of course be receivable by these Canadian National West Indies steamships which we are setting up by this legislation-allowing for these factors it is estimated that there would be an income deficit in the first year of $761,911, the fifth year, $664,911, and the tenth year $564,911 the reduction being brought about of course by reason of the accretions in the sinking fund provided for the retirement of the' bonds at the rate of five per cent per annum. I will leave to the Minister of Trade and Commerce the discussion of the subsidy feature of the matter because the Department of Trade and Commerce has been dealing with that phase of it. A special committee of the cabinet consisting of myself, the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and the Minister of Finance have been going into

this matter for some months past with the officers of the Canadian National railways; it concerns of course both the Department of Railways and Canals and the Department of Trade and Commerce. I Should say on the point which has been most discussed, that no one need have any fear that Canadian shipyards will not be given the fullest opportunity to demonstrate that they can build these ships, can build all of them, and at a price which would take into account all the factors which have been mentioned on both sides of the House, including the far comer, and would justify as a good business practice keeping the business entirely in Canada. The government does desire to keep the business in Canada.
Now, my hon. friend from St. John had a question which I have forgotten.
Mr. MaoLAREN: My question was: Could the minister inform the committee what is t.he estimated economy effected by the proposed government service, as contrasted with the tenders for a private service?


Charles Avery Dunning: I leave that to the
Minister of Trade and Commerce to answer. He has that information.


Robert James Manion: What are the tonnage and dimensions of the boats?


Charles Avery Dunning: I have not the exact
dimensions.


Robert James Manion: Have you the length?
Mr. DUNN'ING:	No, the length has not
yet been determined.


Mr. ARTHURS:: The minister has given
certain figures as to the deficits for the first, the fifth and the tenth years. Has he based those figures on the present trade between Canada and the West Indies, or has he any reason to believe there will be any increase in that trade?


Charles Avery Dunning: We have endeavoured
not to be too rosy in that regard. We expect as a result of the operations of the treaty a considerable increase in trade, but we have endeavoured to be conservative in our figures because I for one do not want to come back to this House in future and say, I am very sorry but the deficit is three (times what we expected. I would prefer to overstate the deficit at this stage rather than understate it, and the instructions given to the officials who were preparing the figures was to bear that in mind-to give estimates which could be relied upon as being conservative estimates. One would require almost the vision of a pro-

West Indies Trade Agreement
phet to ascertain really how much the factor of increased trade would weigh in the reduction of the deficit, and we have endeavoured to be conservative in our estimates.


Robert James Manion: May I ask the Minister
of Trade and Commerce if he has the dimensions of these boats? I understood him to say that he had.


James Malcolm: No, but there are specific figures available as to the tonnage and the number of cubic feet of refrigeration capacity.


Robert James Manion: But not as to the length?


James Malcolm: No.


Robert Gardiner: Does the estimated
deficit for the first year include the subsidy that will be received from the West Indies?


Charles Avery Dunning: The figures which I gave took into account the West Indian subsidies before arriving at the estimated deficit.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The net deficit.


Charles Avery Dunning: The net deficit.


William Anderson Black: I must say that
I am very much surprised at the estimated deficit givell us by the Minister of Railways in connection with the operation of this service. To my mind the estimate resembles the estimate given of the Transcontinental railway. Hon. members at that time were told that the cost of that railway was to be thirteen millions. I will not recapitulate what the project actually has cost. But as to the cost of operating these boats-having made some calculations myself and being familiar with the operations of steamships, and bearing in mind the calculations of others who have been operating steamships-I say that the annual deficit on the operations of this West Indian service and treaty will be at least two millions a year. I stand by that statement. I am satisfied that is the figure which will materialize, and I say that this contract, in connection with the treaty which has been entered into, will be very disastrous to this Dominion.


James Malcolm: There has been so
much cross questioning that I hardly know where to start my remarks and supplement what has already been said by the Minister of Railways. At the present time we are paying $340,000 a year for a service to the West Indian islands which is not satisfactory either as to frequency or as to capacity. At the time of the conference of 1925, a better service was arranged along the lines of the service which had been provided at the conference of 1920, but which had not been carried out. When
the tenders were called for as mentioned by my colleague the Minister of Railways, no satisfactory tender was received-in fact no tender was received for the western service via the western islands and Jamaica. The government was not able to award a tender, nor was it satisfied at that time that it had exhausted the field of those who might wish to figure. The hon. gentleman who has just taken his seat spoke to me at the first part of this session before Christmas, and we again opened the tenders in order to let the com-panj' in which he is interested or others tender again, but without success. I have very carefully prepared estimates by the officers of the Canadian National railways who have submitted to us a set of figures which, if correct will1 save this country much more money than if we continue to pay subsidies.
I have taken the trouble to compile some figures as to what it costs to continue a steamship subsidy and I think it is worth while for the committee to know this. I think the senior member for Halifax will be glad to have this information. It is true the government is asking for a $10,000,000 capital outlay to provide a frequent service as called for by the treaty, and it is stated that the interest on a capital outlay of $10,000,000 is not a small amount. But if we continue to pay money in the form of subsidies for which we get absolutely nothing back and on which we lose the interest for all time to come, the amount involved runs into a considerable sum. Since 1889 and 1890 we have been paying subsidies for the West Indies service. The amount started at $49,942. It reached $73,000 in 1901. It continued to grow until in 1905 it reached $134,000. In 1910 and 1911 the subsidy amounted to $144000. I will not weary the committee with the figures, but finally in 1925-26 it reached $318,000. The Dominion of Canada on this West Indies service has now paid out in cash $6,593,000. That, computed at 5 per cent interest annually since we have gone into this business, means that this country has now contributed to the British West Indies service $13,930,000.


Georges Parent: To what firm in particular were the subsidies granted?


James Malcolm: I have not the names
to give to the hon. member. The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company have been the successful tenderers on the last few occasions. The point I wish to deal with is this, that while we have been paying out S340.0GO for a service which is not satisfactory to the West Indian islands, our own officers now estimate that under the plan submitted by the Minister of Railways we are going to have an operating

West Indies Trade Agreement
deficit of $764,000. That is much more money than we have been paying out in subsidies but it is not to be compared to what private firms would have asked for the same service. The senior member for Halifax is unquestionably a good shipping man; he knows what it costs to run this service and make money out of it. No man in this House is in a better position than he is to judge; but I am inclined to think that he is underestimating the possibilities of trade on the western route. His firm did not see fit to figure on that route. They did give us a figure on the eastern service for which they are now obtaining $340,000, but the figure which they gave us was $582,000 for that service, which is one-half of the service. The western service they refused altogether to figure on.
As to the prophecy of the hon. gentleman, I must admit that I am not sufficiently acquainted with the trade in the West Indies or sufficient of a prophet to estimate what may develop or to contradict the hon. gentleman, *but I have sufficient faith in the officers who have compiled the estimate to make this prophecy, that the hon. gentleman's estimate of a deficit of $2,000,000 will be shown to be absurd in the first two years of operation and more absurd at the end of the five years. Those acquainted with this trade have a feeling that much business will develop.
The subject is such an old one that I do not think it is necessary for me to review the history of this service since back in 1890 when Sir George Foster made his first attempt to effect trade treaties with the West Indies. I think hon. members do not want to be wearied with a review of the whole series of events leading up to the 1920 conference.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Will the minister give us
the figures on which he bases his estimate of the net deficit?


James Malcolm: The hon. gentleman is
asking me for something which I cannot give him. This is a prepared set of statistics given by the National railways to the government. We have not done the accounting or actuarial work involved in compiling it. The estimate which the National railways make is made in three ways. The first plan is that if the boats were all built in Canada there would be a higher capital cost and therefore a greater interest charge and a heavier annual payment for depreciation. Under this plan the estimated deficit the first year is $818,000. If the boats were all built in Great Britain the estimated deficit would be $675,000. The plan which the minister submits is an average plan with three of the boats built in Canada

and two built in Great Britain with an estimated deficit of $764,000. I am inclined to think-and I believe hon. members will agree with me-that we are not prone to overestimate deficits. It is not very long since 1921 when we came into this House and we were told that the deficits on the National railways could not be improved and that the system should be sold.


Peter McGibbon: Who said that?


James Malcolm: It was stated by a good many hon. gentlemen on that side and some on this side of the House.


An hon. MEMBER:: On your own side.


James Malcolm: I said some on this
side. It was even said by one hon. gentleman that the system should be sold for a dollar. There is not a man now who would sell the National railways for a dollar; there is not a man who is not proud of the success of the National railways. This steamship system is going to give to the Shippers, to the passenger trade of this country, to our sister dominions and colonies an opportunity to do more trade and more travelling within the British Empire. It is going to provide a passenger service which I believe the people of this country will appreciate.
The trade of the West Indies and the trade of Canada do not in any way conflict. It is needless to read a long list of commodites which are exchanged between these two parts of the British Empire, but they do not conflict in any way. We have further plans for the development of trade with the West Indies, which plans we will reveal to the House at a later date. They will not involve an expenditure of such magnitude as this. After going over the trade figures with the West Indian islands on commodities which do not conflict with our products, I am firmly convinced that the trade figures, when this service is instituted, will reveal a very marked increase inasmuch as we shall be buying through Canadian ports many commodities which now come to us through United States channels. When I was speaking on the budget I made the remark that it is difficult to rely on statistics. We do more business with the West Indies and Cuba than we are credited with because a good deal of dt passes through United States channels. There will not be as great an increase of business between Canada and the West Indies by virtue of this service as some people might imagine; but there will be more direct business through Canadian ports and over a Canadian system, and that

West Indies Trade Agreement
is the very thing that is going to make that service pay better than most people believe at the present time. If our freight can be brought direct from the West Indies, as we propose it shall be in these boats having the necessary cold storage capacity, we shall be diverting a certain amount of trade that now comes through the United States and is credited under Canadian imports as being of American origin, whereas in reality it is of West Indian origin. While I make that point,
I want to be correctly interpreted. I doubt if the service is going to increase to such a great extent our business with the West Indies. It will to some extent, but there is only a certain volume of business that can be done there, and the increase is not going to be so much an increase in the volume of trade as in diversion of trade from American channels to Canadian channels and Canadian ports. To me, Mr. Chairman, that is the most important part of this service. According to our [DOT]latest figures for 1926, in bananas, grape fruit, cocoanuts, spices, and so forth, we are buying from the West Indies somewhere about $15,000,000 worth of merchandise a year, but I firmly believe that actually we are buying over $20,000,000 worth of West Indian products. I believe that fifty per cent of our goods from the West Indies comes through American channels. We are selling to the West Indies about $17,200,000 worth of goods, but 1 believe that into the same territory goes a very considerable amount of Canadian export through American channels by reason of the scarcity of Canadian tonnage.
This service, Mr. Chairman, is designed to do two things. It is designed to give river trade in the summer to Montreal, and to divide the trade between Halifax and St. John in the winter, serving equally both transportation companies, the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National. We as a government feel that we have to keep faith with the agreements of 1920 and 1925. We feel this is part of our contribution to empire unity. We realize that the cost is not going to .be small, but we feel that we would be very much less than honest if we did not put on this service, and I say frankly to the House. Mr. Chairman, that I do not believe, after two calls for tenders, that the service can be put on in any other way than we are offering to the House to-night. We searched the field and endeavoured in every way possible to give every private interest the opportunity to figure on this service. We considered a subsidy also before we finally arrived
at the conclusion we arrived at, and which we are now submitting to the House. If the service is installed, I am as hopeful as I was in 1921 of the National railway. I believe the figures as estimated will be found to be practically correct. We have discouraged any super-optimism on the part of the Canadian National Steamship Company officials as to what their probable earnings would be. We have figured from a very careful basis so far as the government is concerned, and my colleague the Minister of Finance has been most insistent that no undue optimism should be used which would result in him being asked to come back and apologize for the estimate in five years. That is all as a government we could do in compiling the figures.
I sincerely hope that the estimate of the senior member for Halifax is quite wrong.
I personally think it is. I believe that with the growth and development of the service, the estimates as compiled by the officials will be found to be very nearly correct.
Just one word more with regard to the question of building these boats in Canada or in Great Britain. It is not a very serious matter whether all these boats * are built in Canada, or whether three of them are built in Canada and two in Great Britain. It is a matter of $100,000 annually. It is a matter of policy for this House to determine whether they are prepared to face about another $100,000 annual deficit on the plan we have prepared in order to have all the ships built in Canada, or whether they are willing to effect another $100,000 saving annually by having them all built in Great Britain. We have chosen the middle course. We have been informed by the officials, in making their estimates as to the advisability of building two ships in Great Britain, that two of them can best be built in British shipyards on account of the refrigeration system that is required. My hon. friend a moment ago said that the refrigeration system was installed after the boat was built. Quite true, but it is on the installation of the refrigeration system that the British builders' figures are so very much lower than the Canadian builders' figures. It may be quite possible to import from Great Britain refrigeration plants and install them here, but the National railway experts felt that the two boats with the heavy refrigeration could best be built in Britain, and that the other three boats could best be built in Canada. Speaking for myself-I am not speaking for the Minister of Railways-

West Indies Trade Agreement
I do not believe the committee in charge of this matter would have any objection, if -the House is in favour, and when the details are asked, to having all these boats built in Canada if it can be shown that they can be built economically in this country. I have no brief for either plan. We submit this as a middle course on the recommendation of those estimating on the service, so that we may have some figure to come to parliament with. When the plans are ready, they will be submitted to British and Canadian yards, and we believe that about $10,000,000 will provide the service asked for. Further than that, Mr. Chairman, there is very little I can contribute to the debate.


William Anderson Black: May I ask the
Minister of Trade and Commerce what increase in trade he anticipates as a result of this proposed steamship service, giving the imports and the exports separately, if possible?


James Malcolm: I would answer my hon. friend by saying, without speaking authoritatively, that the western service to Jamaica is based on the tonnage of freight now being brought by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine to Canadian ports, plus the tonnage which will be diverted from American channels to Canadian channels, plus an increase in passenger service in line with the estimates of the passenger traffic officers. It is not estimated that there will be a heavy increase in the freight traffic in the service to the eastern group. There could not be a very heavy increase except through natural growth, but the officials have estimated on an increased passenger service due to greater frequency of service and better boats.


William Anderson Black: It seems to me
that .the estimate must have been a very, veiy conservative one, because I notice that there is only a difference in the twenty years of $200,000 in the loss which is estimated by the government to arise in the operation of the service. That would indicate to me that the increase in business would not be of any very great consequence.


Charles Avery Dunning: My hon. friend said
twenty years. If I said twenty years in regard to income deficits, that was an error. The figures I gave were for the first, fifth and tenth year respectively.


William Anderson Black: I should have
said ten years.


James Malcolm: In further reply to my
hon. friend, I might give the tonnage of cargoes carried in seagoing vessels between Canada and the British West Indies for the fiscal years 1918 up to 1925:
Tonnage of Cargoes carried in Sea-Going Vessels between Canada and the British West Indies, Fiscal Years ended 1918-1925 (Compiled from the Shipping Report of the Customs and Excise Department).
Inwards	Outwards
Freight	Freight
Tons weight Tons weight
1918	
130,928	120,0021919	
132,429	101,2211920	
135,864	156,0451921	
129,111	249,9891922	
161,851	183,3531923	
265,535	244,6411924	
178,491	245,1761925	
248,600	260,698
So in 1925, which is the last year for which we have the figures, the tonnage each year was exactly double what it was in 1918. In that short space of time, seven years, the total tonnage had doubled.


Mr. BROWN:: The figures show a steady
increase both inward and outward.


James Malcolm: Yes.


Thomas Cantley: In arriving at the suggested amount will the minister be good enough to inform the committee what arrangements are made regarding depreciation and interest charges?


James Malcolm: The estimate provides for the normal depreciation and interest at 4J per cent.


Thomas Cantley: What is the normal depreciation in shipping property of this character?


James Malcolm: It is iput in the form of a sinking fund at five per cent-four and a half per cent interest and the amortization of the whole amount.


Milton Neil Campbell: I agree with the hon. member for Rosetown that a most important principle is involved in the placing of these contracts, whether we shall have the ships constructed in Canada at a considerably increased price, or whether we shall permit the officials of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine to secure them in the markets of the world and have the lowest possible capitalization. It is inconceivable that any private corporation, whether a railway company or a- steamship company, would pay .more for the construction of vessels in Canada than the amount at which they could secure a similar type of vessel outside of Canada, and certainly we must put our public enterprises

West Indies Trade Agreement
in a position to compete. Not only that, but if the capitalization of the ships is increased by reason of the fact that they are constructed in Canada, then we are saddling an extra capitalization on that trade between the maritime provinces and the West Indies. That means increased rates and necessarily an interference with the freer exchange of goods. I have a good deal of sympathy with the viewpoint that our own Canadian yards should be given these Contracts and that our own workmen should receive the wages that would be paid out. No Canadian can ignore that, but it seems to me that the difficulty can be got over in another way, without adopting the middle course, as the Minister of Trade and Commerce suggests. I do not think there is any justification for the middle course. I think the government should decide on a definite policy, whether they are prepared to pay the extra price and have these ships constructed in Canada, or whether they should permit the officers of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine to procure these ships in the markets of the world at the lowest possible prices. That is the question the government should decide and they shouild decide on a definite policy. I do not suggest that they should say to the officers of the merchant marine that they should secure the ships in the markets of the world as cheaply as possible, but there is another way the government can get round it. If the government considers it is worth while for Canada, for Canadian shipyards and for Canadian workingmen, to pay the extra price, I think we should vote in this House the necessary estimates to pay that difference and have the capitalization at the amount for which they could be secured outside charged up to the merchant marine. To imy mind that is the only fair way in which it could be done, and as a matter of fact I think I would be inclined to suggest that the government Should follow the latter course. As a Canadian I should dislike to see the ships constructed in the shipyards of Great Britain or Europe.


An hon. MEMBER:: Or Germany.


Milton Neil Campbell: I have uo prejudice
against Germany. Perhaps my hon. friend has, but that is not -involved -in this question at all. I would ask my hon. friend, if he were a wholesaler or a private trader of any kind selling goods and could secure them cheaper in Germany than he could get them in Canada, would his patriotism go so far that he would not buy in the cheapest -market?


An hon. MEMBER:: It certainly would.


Milton Neil Campbell: Then he is a better
patriot than I am. If they decide to build ships in Canada I would be prepared to support such a policy as that, and I think that the extra price should not be charged up to the price of the ship. Let the government vote that money in the House and I would support it and consider .it the proper way to handle the situation, because it would give our own working men and ou-r own shipyards -the money which was involved.


James Malcolm: My hon. friend (Mr. Campbell) has called upon the government to announce its policy. Well, the policy has been announced. We are not going to buy continental ships. Another question has been brought up by the hon. member for Pictou (Mr. Cantley) who says that probably i-t would be better to build all -the ships in Canada on account of the equipment being standard in this country. I think that also applies to British-built ships. We as a government have offered to the House a program involving a certain amount. If we were to announce boldly in the House that we were going to 'buy all the ships in Canada they would probably cost a million more than they will under the present arrangement. As a government we want to buy them in Canada and we are asking for the amount of money we think the ships should cost. If the Canadian shipyards can construct the ships required for the amount of money we are asking the House to vote, we may buy them in Canada. The officers of the service have suggested that they believe two of them can be more economically constructed in Great Britain and that is why the estimate is as it is. If the hon. member wants an answer as to the government's policy I am prepared to give it to him. Possibly the volume of business coming to Canada by the construction of the boats in Canada will mean sufficient to pay the difference in cost. We might buy these ships in Germany for $2,000,000 less. It would be a saving of that amount, but I am not prepared to take $2,000,000 from Canadian shipyards and Canadian business to hand it to any foreign country at any time.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: What was the lowest
tender received for the service?


James Malcolm: There was none.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: Could my hon. friend
give me an estimate?


James Malcolm: No. On the eastern service, on which the Royal Mail Steam Packet tendered by virtue of the new treaty the

W est Indies Trade Agreement
amount of $340,000 was raised to $582,000. On the western service they have refused to give us a figure.


Edmond Baird Ryckman: The actual money involved in this project, taking into consideration what money is worth, would mean at the end of the first year $750,000, with a capital involved of $10,000,000, and this would mean that in order to carry all the in and out freight you are going to involve just as much in dollars and cents as you have pounds ini annual in and out freight. While I am not one of those who go down to the sea in ships, I cannot imagine how any business that is going to parallel in tons the dollars that are actually involved can possibly succeed. It means there are $30,000,000 involved in this project, to carry, as I understood the minister to say, practically 30,000,000 pounds in freight. It will mean therefore that if these deficits are not paid you are really paying through the nose, because money is always worth four and one-half per cent. It means you are going to lose in the interest on the capital invested, and the deficits will be more than the value of the service will justify. It means therefore that this country is committed to a treaty which constitutes a bad business bargain, and we are now making it worse in the manner in which we are implementing it. I am bound to join in the protest that has been made to-night, for I am sure that we shall come back here year after year only to find that we have been running into a great expense which we could have avoided had we exercised business sense.


James Arthurs: I understood the minister to say he had no intention of having the ships built in any continental yards. In other words, they are not to be built in Germany.
I commend him in that regard. He also intimated that they would be built in Canada provided always, that they came within the estimate.


James Malcolm: I did not say quite that.


James Arthurs: Suppose the combined
cost of the ships exceeds the estimate of
$10,000,000?


Charles Avery Dunning: That is not the estimate; it is not the figure I gave.


James Arthurs: Well, it does not matter precisely what it is. Suppose the cost comes within a reasonable sum of the estimate, Whatever it may be, will the preference then be given to Canadian yards as against British or foreign builders?


James Malcolm: I had better leave that question to the Minister of Railways.


Charles Avery Dunning: We do not intend tc
say to the Canadian shipbuilders, " Here boys, you are going to get this business " That is not our intention. It is not good business.


James Arthurs: We are not asking you
to say that.


Charles Avery Dunning: We intend to get prices from Canadian and British yards and on the basis of the tenders we receive we shall exercise our best business judgment as to what should be done, having due regard to the national interests as outlined by members on both sides of the House to-night.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Dunning thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 142, respecting the Canadian National Steamships and to provide for the establishment of a West Indies service.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals) moved the second reading of Bill No. 121, respecting the Canadian National Railways and to provide for the refunding of certain maturing financial obligations.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Marcil in the chair.
Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
On section 5

Approval of governor in council.
Henry Herbert Stevens: This is the main clause
of the bill. Is it an exact parallel of similar provisions found in other bills of this character or does it involve anything new? I have not had time to look it over.


Charles Avery Dunning: I do not know of any other bill exactly of this character which has been passed before. This section, however, is a standard provision which we are introducing in all Canadian National bills having to do with the issuing of securities and with financing generally.


Henry Herbert Stevens: In what Tegard is it different from former bills of this character?

Seed Grain and Other Reliej


Charles Avery Dunning: We have not to my
knowledge had any refunding bills of this character before. It simply makes clear, what was formerly doubtful, that the terms and conditions with regard to securities are subject to the approval of the governor in council.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Sections 6 and 7 agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.


[Stage Direction]
Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior) moved the second reading of Bill No. 122, respecting certain debts due the crown.
Motion agreed to, bill read the second time, and the House went into committee thereon, Mr. Marcil in the chair.
On section 1-Adjustment of indebtedness for certain allowances.
Charles A. Stewart: When we
were considering the resolution an hon. member asked for a statement of the outstanding accounts. I have a statement in my hand showing the total amount of securities taken for advances of seed grain and relief in the western provinces from 1876 to 1926 inclusive; the total repayments of principal to January 31, 1927, and the amount of principal outstanding as of January 31, 1927. From 1876 to 1926 the security taken amounted to $15,340,016.63, while the repayments of principal amounted to $12,005,353.77. The balance of principal outstanding as of January 31, 1927, amounts to $3,334,662.86. In connection with the joint loans, or loans made under the 50 per cent agreement, payments by the Dominion to the province of Alberta amounted to $875,108.09, and to Saskatchewan to $290,913.52, while the total repayments from Alberta have amounted to $163,305.31 and from Saskatchewan to $37,514.20, or a total repayment of $200,819.51. That is the statement of the two provinces of the loans on this account. I went pretty thoroughly over the proposals of the bill the other day, but I omitted to say one important thing, namely that under the War Measures Act we had a similar provision for the settlement of these accounts, but on the cancellation of the War Measures Act of course our authority to compromise on
these settlements disappeared, and that is what I am asking be now given us in order if possible to clear up these outstanding amounts.	'


Henry Herbert Stevens: The only criticism I would offer-or perhaps I would not put it so strongly -is that the bill is contained in one clause, and it gives a blanket power to the governor in council to make these settlements. I am under the impression that there should be some method outlined in the bill by which this settlement would be arrived at. For instance, I understand that it will probably be worked out in conference with the provinces and the municipalities, or probably the representative of the provinces who will represent the municipalities as well.


Charles A. Stewart: In some
cases the loan companies, who are foreclosing.


Henry Herbert Stevens: In some cases the loan
companies as well. I presume the minister has a plan which would satisfy the committee as to the wisdom of the government's course. I am not offering this in a critical spirit at all, but it does seem to me rather a wide power to ask.


Charles A. Stewart: May I say
for the information of the committee that it is rather difficult to lay down hard and fast rules of settlement, and that is one reason why we are not fixing the procedure by statute. Inasmuch as practically the whole of the settlement will have to be by compromise arrangements with the provincial governments, or particularly with the municipalities through the provincial governments, it is largely a matter of the allocation of the amounts, because the properties will never realize the full amounts of the liens and obligations against them. Therefore there will have to be an allocation of the amounts, and I would like to cite one instance. At the moment there is an arrangement which we are endeavouring to put into execution whereby we will take all the area around the Bow river, bounded on the south by Medicine Hat and on the north by the Red Deer river and going ten ranges westward; we are endeavouring to put that territory under range conditions once more, and our officers are allocating certain areas with water privileges which we hope to lease rather than sell to ranchers over a long term of years. In most cases it is true that the provincial governments have proceeded under the tax enforcement act and are now the owners of a very large proportion of this property, subject of course to our liens which have priority. We hope to get those lands

Seed Grain and Other Relief
down to a valuation on which reasonable rentals can be secured, to see whether we cannot transform that whole area back to the range conditions which prevailed before homesteading and settlement duties were permitted. So each individual case will have to be dealt with separately, and by that I mean every individual unit. We have a joint board which is advising both governments, and which will make an allocation of the amounts to be received by the crown and by the province for the taxation indebtedness; if there is any further creditor such as a mortgage company, a machinery company or a merchant having claims, the board will settle what proportion each creditor will lose in order to get an adjustment of that claim. That will wipe it off and1 get the land clear of any encumbrance once more.
That, I may say to the committee, is briefly one method of adjusting these claims. The other, of course, is where we are not endeavouring to do that, where there are scattered parcels of land which may be located anywhere in either of these provinces, in which the provincial government is interested with the municipality again behind the provincial government. In those cases representative officers of the two governments will try to arrive at an allocation of the loss to be sustained by each party. That is all the authority we are asking.


George Reginald Geary: Will this be a matter of
dealing with individuals at all?


Charles A. Stewart: No, unless
you would call a mortgage company an individual.


George Reginald Geary: You will not deal with any individual owner?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


George Reginald Geary: These men who paid back
the $12,000,000 are not likely to be heard from either?


Charles A. Stewart: My hon.
friend will note that some of these claims go back to 1876. This will only apply where foreclosure is taking place and the property is being cleared up; it is not a compromise arrangement with some individual who may be on the land and who wants to settle his debts.


Robert Gardiner: Will this proposal apply also to farmers who are still resident in this area?


Charles A. Stewart: In the
district I have mentioned, which we are endeavouring to transform from an agricul-

tural to a ranching area, there are still some individuals on the land and they will be dealt with by the committee which has been named by the two governments.


Robert Gardiner: What about the other areas where these liens are still in effect? I suppose it is proposed to deal with those areas also?


Charles A. Stewart: Oh yes, it is proposed to deal with other cases. My hon. friend will realize that unless proceedings of this sort are taken there is little or no hope of making an arrangement, because we cannot get all the interested creditors together.


Henry Herbert Stevens: You are not going to abandon claims in which there is any likelihood of payment being made?


Charles A. Stewart: No.


Robert Gardiner: Let us presume for a moment that the farmer is still residing on the property. There are liens registered against that property and accrued interest to such an extent that it is impossible for him to pay them off. Will not that resident farmer have the opportunity of coming under the scope of this legislation?


Charles A. Stewart: If my hon. friend will stop to think for a moment he will see how impossible it is to deal with that particular case, regrettable as it may be. The best thing for that man to do if he is in such a position is to allow the sale to take place and buy in the property.


Robert Gardiner: What will he buy it in with?


Charles A. Stewart: He 'becomes obligated for any amount that may be considered reasonable, but in nearly every case as my hon. friend knows there are at least a half a dozen registered liens against his property. I wish there were some way of dealing with such cases but frankly I must confess there does not appear to be any. If I were in that position I would readily say: clean me out and let me start over again.


Robert Gardiner: I think I might suggest to the minister a possible way out of that situation. But first of all let me say this: take the farmer who went into that semi-arid belt at the behest of the federal government. He was offered a homestead and a preemption at $3 an acre. That land was re^ presented to him as being good agricultural land. There is no question about that, and

Seed Grain and Other Relief
the district filled up very rapidly say from the year 1909 up to about the year 1912. That whole area was filled up in about three years time.


Henry Herbert Stevens: Does my hon. friend refer to that area south of Medicine Hat?


Robert Gardiner: And north of it, north
of the Red Deer river. There are many farmers there. They all went into wheat farming because it was represented to them that this land was good wheat land. Many of those farmers have stayed with that proposition through thick and thin. I will admit that when the dry years came it would have been far better for all concerned if they had got out of the district, 'but they did not; they remained with the property right up to the present time. Now I maintain that people who have faith in the country to that extent ought to receive some consideration. They have proven that they are the kind of pebple that we want for this country. The people who have gone out are those who could not stand the gaff, but the settlers who remained deserve some consideration. Therefore I suggest to the minister that some means should be found whereby their liabilities would 'be compromised to some extent. Under the amendments to the Bankruptcy Act a few years ago, and through the debt adjustment bureau in Alberta., they have been able to compromise many of the debts in those areas.


Charles A. Stewart: There is no
difficulty about that.


Robert Gardiner: I would suggest to the
minister that in drawing up these regulations that point should be kept in mind, so that a farmer now resident out there who has become embarrassed may come under this scheme and have his liabilities compromised so that he will be able to remain. Because after all the people who are there now have proven their worth and should be given some consideration.


Charles A. Stewart: There will
be no difficulty at all about that, because the debt adjustment officer is an official of tire provincial government and such a case would come within the purview of this act


Robert Gardiner: You have received a
report from the joint commission?


Charles A. Stewart: Yes.


Robert Gardiner: Would it be too much
to ask that you place a copy of the report on the table?
[DOT]	32649-70


Charles A. Stewart: I shall be
very glad to have a copy of the report placed on the table.


Mr. GERSHAW:: I should like to point
out a few facts as to the necessity for this legislation. The municipalities, the loan companies and individuals are all interested. As has been said, these liens date from 1876. About 1910, 1911 and 1912, a great number of people went in and filed on homesteads, and took up preemptions on that land which was then thrown open for homestead purposes. During the years that followed many farmers found it necessary to give up, and in one year, namely in 1915, security was taken to the extent of $12,000,000 for the relief that was given out. There were good crops in 1915 and 1916, and a great part of these obligations have been paid off. Owing to the lean years which followed, however, many people have found themselves quite unable to pay their obligations. When the settlers went in homes were built and stock purchased; school districts were organized and small towns were built up. But as the result of a succession of dry years these small villages were almost deserted, and the school districts could not carry on. I know of one municipality where thirteen school districts were in operation but where now there is only one. In the Tilley area which the minister has mentioned there were formerly fifty-seven school districts in operation; now there are only thirteen. As the people moved out they left their debts behind1, and of course the merchants, machinery companies, and others have suffered to a greater or less extent. Those people could do nothing else. It was impossible for them to pay their debts, and through no fault of their own they found themselves in that condition. Many of them have left, and the Tilley commission found that in one district in which they made investigation 85 per cent of the farms were deserted. In any case there is not sufficient security left to satisfy these relief claims. At the present time I understand there is no one who has authority to cancel those claims, so I think this legislation will help to improve matters to some extent. Those claims for relief were placed against the land prior to the municipal or school claim for taxes, and prior to any claim that the mortgage companies may have had and those having claims were not notified. Where mortgage companies have instituted foreclosure proceedings and taken over the land they find that these prior

1106	COMMONS
Supply-Public Works-New Brunswick
claims have rendered their equity null. One large insurance company has discontinued the payment of taxes on their extensive holdings, and this makes it very difficult for the farmers who have remained to pay the taxes for local purposes. In many cases the municipalities have taken over this land for the non-payment of taxes, but they found prior liens registered against the land, and in many cases the liens are of greater value than the land itself. For instance I know of one quarter for which the municipality was offered $500 but against which the amount of liens was more than $1,000.
This legislation is particularly important in the interest of those farmers who are remaining on the land, and who have struggled along through all the bad years in the effort to maintain their homes. If that land was made, available at a low rate for grazing or for purposes such as that, it could be made use of. Eates should be regulated according to the number of acres required to care for so many head of stock. These people would thus be piaced in a much better position to carry on and to maintain their homes, and we should try to keep them there because they are the greatest assets that we have. Their experience is of great value. It is necessary that some organization should have the right to reduce or cancel these claims. In many cases they should be cancelled outright. There is little security left. The men who are there have a debt that is twelve or fifteen years old, and I really believe the department should deal very generously with those claims and see that fairness is done to all parties.


[Stage Direction]
Section agreed to.
Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of supply, Mr. Mareil in the chair.
Public Works-New Brunswick
St. John custom house-improvements
and repairs	$15,000
St. John new post office buildingrepairs and improvements	 4,400
St. John old post office building- restoration and repairs	 4,000
Murray MacLaren: Does this complete the restoration of the old post office?


Hon. J. C. ELLIOTT (Minister of Public Works):: It is expected that this $15,000,

which is a revote, will complete the following repairs to the St. John customs house: Painting and glazing, exterior wood
and iron work, etc	$ 2,200
Repairs to sheet metal and copper
work	 300
Repairs to carpentry work	 400
Repairs to masonry	 400
Interior painting	   2,000
Remodelling plumbing, and toilet accommodation	 8,800
Contingencies	 900

This is being done as a result of a report from the chief architect which is as follows:
All of the above works are urgently required, and I would recommend that an item be placed in the supplementary estimates for 1926-27 as the amount required for these works is too large to be taken out of the general vote for the maritime provinces.
Item agreed to.
Maritime provinces generally - Dominion public buildings-improvements, repairs, etc., $43,000.


Robert Gardiner: Are these for unforeseen expenditures?


John Campbell Elliott: This is the general vote.
It is about the same as the general vote for those purposes in the maritimes has been for many years.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec-Baie St. Paul, public building, $20,000.
Hugh Guthrie: Will the minister explain this item?


John Campbell Elliott: This amount of $20,000 is required for the purchase of a site and the erection of a. building for postal purposes in the town of Baie St. Paul. Of this amount, $3,000 is for the purchase of a site, $12,000 for a building, $2,500 for fittings and lock *boxes, $1,000 for grading and sidewalks, and $1,500 for contingencies and superintendence, making a total of $20,000.


Hugh Guthrie: What is the necessity for a building of this kind in this place?


John Campbell Elliott: The present facilities are
not at all adequate for the purpose and the Post Office Department have stated that due to rural mail delivery routes starting from this point, the office as at present located is insufficient for the distribution of the mails. Baie St. Paul is the forwarding office for Rang St. Gabriel, Clairvaux de Charlevoix, Cap it la Branche, lie aux Coudres, La Baleine,

Supply-Public Works-Quebec
Point des Roches, Belley, St. Hi'larion du Lac. St. Hilarion, La Mare, St. Urbain de Charlevoix, Bas de la Baie, and three others.


Hugh Guthrie: What is the size of the
town and what is the revenue from the post office?


John Campbell Elliott: The population of the
town is somewhere under 3,000 and the revenue for the last fiscal year was $3,867.


Hugh Guthrie: I suppose that is gross?


John Campbell Elliott: I think so. The town has more than doubled in population in the last twenty-five years. It is a quite rapidly growing town now.


William Gordon Ernst: What is the present population of the town?


John Campbell Elliott: Somewhere under 3,000.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is a safe bet.


John Campbell Elliott: It is very dose to that.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: It is the chief town of Charlevoix county.


Hugh Guthrie: 
Charles Marcil: The
motion is out of order because it is simply a negative motion.


Hugh Guthrie: I then move to reduce
the item by $18,000.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: Does the government own a building at this place, or is postal accommodation being rented?


John Campbell Elliott: The information I have
is that there is a very bad condition there on account of the number of offices that have to be served by this building.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: But does the
government now own a building there, or are they renting one?


John Campbell Elliott: The post office occupies a small space in the town hall, eighteen by six feet.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What rental is
being paid?


John Campbell Elliott: I do not think rent is
being paid. The accommodation is wholly inadequate for the distribution of mail.


Hugh Alexander Stewart: What I wish to point out, in addition to what the leader of the opposition has said, is that there will be a lalge sum for the maintenance of this building each year, thereby seriously decreasing the present revenue.


William Gordon Ernst: In the supplementaries for
1926-1927 there was an item of $4,000 for a site for a public building in this place. Is that included in the $20,000?


John Campbell Elliott: Perhaps my hon. friend
was not in when I gave the items which

Supply-Public Works-Quebec
make up this $20,000. They included the site, estimated at $3,000, and the building, $12,000. I quite agree with what the leader of the opposition has said about a great many .places needing additional postal facilities but it is quite impossible to provide it all in. one year. What the government is trying to do is to proceed just as carefully as it can with providing accommodation only where it is urgently needed, just like the repairs at St. John. Nothing is being done under the vote asked for here that is not urgently required for the public service.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has any attempt been
made to get increased accommodation by renting an office, or is this simply another payment of an election debt?


John Campbell Elliott: Not any more than the
improvements in St. John are the payment of an election debt.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The improvements in St.
John are necessary.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I think it my duty to
say a few words in reference to this item for a public building at Baie St. Paul, which has been criticized by the hon. leader of the opposition. It may be that when the House is informed of the condition there, and the reason for this vote there will not be so much opposition to it.
As has been well pointed out by the Minister of Public Works, this money is being appropriated for the construction of a post office building at Baie St. Paul, which is the chief town in the county of Charlevoix. The county of Charlevoix, including Baie St. Paul, is one of the largest districts below Quebec. The building in which the post office is located comprises the court house, the magistrate's court, which holds its sittings there, and the registration office, and to the post office a very small room is allotted by the county council. The accommodation is totally inadequate for the postal service in that district. The post office has been, I might say, sponging on the county council for the last twenty-five or thirty years. The post office has hardly as much space as the ordinary room allotted to members of the House here, and-that is where the sorting and distribution of the mail has to take place for the whole district. Baie St. Paul is a distributing centre for the mails for the village, parish and -the municipality of St. Laurent, as well as for the municipalities and rural routes such as St. Hilarion du Lac, St. Gabriel, Clairvaux de Charlevoix and He aux Coudres, with four post offices to serve.

I might point out to my hon. friend that it is not a new thing to construct post offices in other parts of the province of Quebec and elsewhere where the population is not so large as it is at this place, because the government that preceded the Union government in 1914, just at the outbreak of the war, when it was very necessary to economize, put up a post office building costing over $35,000 at Murray Bay, where the population was about the same size as at Baie St. Paul to-day. I say that if it was necessary for the Borden government of that day, on the outbreak of the war, when economy was very necessary, to spend that large amount of money, we can well afford to give to the district of Baie St. Paul to-day the same postal facilities that other parts of the province of Quebec and the country at large have been enjoying for years past. In view of these conditions I feel that the committee should not be reluctant to grant this vote.
Motion (Mr. Guthrie) negatived.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chicoutimi public building-addition, $26,500.
John Campbell Elliott: This amount is required
for the construction of a two-storey addition 23 feet wide by 44 feet long along the east side of the public building at Chicoutimi, as a -means of providing increased accommodation for the postal and customs service. The building is too small.


Mr. LUCAS:: Is it a revote?


John Campbell Elliott: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Drummondville public building-addition, $13,000.
William Gordon Ernst: I should like to point out
that this item was in the su-pplementaries, and while some of the items from -the Conservative constituencies in Nova Scotia have been dropped, this item has been placed in the main estimates again.


John Campbell Elliott: In that regard, it is in
exactly -the sa-me position as the St. John customs -house and the St. John post office. It is not a question of its being a Conservative or a -Liberal -riding; it is a question of urgency. Only those matters that are absolutely urgent are put in.


William Gordon Ernst: Does the minister not consider that a vote passed by this House last year in respect to a post office at Mahone bay should be just as urgent.


William Duff: No.
lluy

Supply-Public Works-Quebec
Mi-. ERNST: I am asking the Minister of Public Works.


John Campbell Elliott: I have no doubt that my hon. friend feels that the requirements at Mahone bay are perhaps greater than in any other riding in the country.


William Gordon Ernst: Not at all.


John Campbell Elliott: In common with many other matters, as soon as the government can see its way clear to do so this 'matter will receive consideration, but at the present time the government is trying to meet the requirements only of the urgent cases. My information in regard to Mahone bay is

there was a report and it was in the supplementary estimates-that the congestion is not so great there as in this particular case.


William Gordon Ernst: Why was the vote in last
year's supplemenitaries if it is not in the main estimates this year?


Ernest Lapointe: It was a mistake.


William Gordon Ernst: Does the hon. gentleman admit the mistake?


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the statement of the hon. member for Antigonish-Guysborough correct, that he had it struck out of the estimates?


Mr. CHAPLIN:: Ordered it out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes.


John Campbell Elliott: I might say that there
never was an interview between the member for Antigonish-Guysborough and myself in regard to Miabone bay. We have the reports from the officers, St. John is exactly in the same category. I saw nobody in connection with it. I go over the reports that -come in from the officers, and we are trying to give the services which we cannot delay any longer.


Murray MacLaren: The post office at St. John was nearly destroyed by fire, and there was no way out of it.


John Campbell Elliott: It is an absolutely urgent expenditure.


William Gordon Ernst: I should like to point out
that the word "interview" is rather an evasive word, but with regard to Mahone bay-


Charles Marcil: The hon. gentleman would not be in order to discuss Mahone bay.


William Gordon Ernst: I am discussing it on the intimation of the minister that certain estimates which were in the supplementaries have been included in the main estimates, by reason of the fact that the Auditor-General's department, or whoever compiled the estimates,
made a mistake. The hon. member for Antigonish-Guysborough made the statement that the people of Mahone bay had requested him to see that this item was not in the estimates. The next day, as soon as I saw it in the press, I had a telegram-


Charles Marcil: The hon. member is out of order. We are now on the item for the Drummondville public building.


William Gordon Ernst: I do not think-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Sit down.


Hugh Guthrie: I rise to a point of order. The hon. member is quite in order in referring to another item under Drummondville. He may make a comparison-


Charles Marcil: The practice is to permit discussion by way of comparison, but this is somewhat different-


Hugh Guthrie: It was only by way of illustration.


John Frederick Johnston: I think he is out of order.


Hugh Guthrie: He is well within his
rights, I submit, to discuss Vancouver or any other place, by way of comparison.


William Gordon Ernst: I am much indebted to the leader of the opposition for the opportunity he has afforded me. The member for Antigonish-Guysborough stated that the people of Mahone bay had requested him-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


William Gordon Ernst: I say that the item concerning Mahone bay was not placed in the main estimates-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


William Gordon Ernst: The very next day I-


Charles Marcil: I cannot allow this discussion on the Drummondville dem.
. Mr. ERNST: I will abandon it-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


William Gordon Ernst: -and will merely state-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Hugh Guthrie: Order yourselves.


William Gordon Ernst: It is most extraordinary that estimates for buildings in certain constituencies that had been in the suppiementaries were also placed in the main estimates, but items relating to other constituencies which voted Conservative were left out.
Food and Drugs Act


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Henry Herbert Stevens: I think we have given the government very generous treatment to-day, and the exhibition we have witnessed in the last two or three minutes indicates that the committee is not going to have peaceful discussion. It is now eleven and I suggest that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I agree with
my hon. friend that we have made fair progress.


John Campbell Elliott: My hon. friend understands that the item respecting Drummondville has ceen carried?


Henry Herbert Stevens: Yes.
Progress reported.



FOOD AND DRUGS ACT, 1920, AMENDMENT

William Lyon Mackenzie King: Before the adjournment of the House I move that the following names be added to the list of members comprising the special committee to which has been referred Bill No. 105, to amend the Food and Drugs Act, 1920: Messieurs Gervais, Ilowden, King (Kootenay), Totzke, Johnstone (Cape Breton North-Victoria), McQuarrie and Preston.


Hewitt Bostock: This motion is made with the unanimous consent of the House. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
On motion of Mr. Mackenzie King the House adjourned at 11.05 p.m.
Friday, March 11, 1927