1926-06-17

TRADE MARK AND DESIGN ACT AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. C. W. BELL (West Hamilton) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 204, to amend the Trade Mark and Design Act.
Some hon. MEMBERS:: Explain.


Mr. BELL (Hamilton):: The object of this bill is to do away with the frequent forgeries and counterfeits of the union label and to protect both employers and employees who are operating with union label agreements against those who are not operating with such agreements, but who attach false or counterfeit labels to products.
While I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, may I ask your guidance in one matter? It is my wish to move-and in that I hope I shall have the acquiescence of the Prime Minister-that this Bill may be advanced in the business of the House. Is it permissible for me to do that now, or must I do it after an interval?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Under t'he rules an interval must elapse but, with the indulgence of the House and in view of the lateness of the presentation of the bill, the hon. gentleman might be allowed to advance the bill one step.


Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):: I think the Commissioner of Patents and Trade Marks should have an opportunity to see the measure before the government gives its consent to any rules being suspended.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.



PRIVATE BILLS


[Stage Direction]
Bill No. 194 (from the Senate), for the relief of Gwendolen McLachlin.-Mr. Mc-Clenaghan.
Bill No. 195 (from the Senate), for the relief of Jessie Evis.-Mr. Arthurs.
Bill No. 196 (from the Senate), for the relief of Max Gertler-Mr. Garland (Carle-ton).
14011-2,944
Questions
[Stage Direction]
Bill	No.	197,	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of Florence May Hicks-Mr. Anderson (Toronto-High Park).
Bill	No.	198	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of Ruth May Harrington.-Mr. Edwards (Waterloo South).
Bill	No.	199	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of Edith Maude Bull.-Mr. Kaiser.
Bill	No.	200	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of Joseph Bernard Hoodless.-Mr. Garland (Carleton).
Bill	No.	201	(from	the	Senate),	for	the
relief of Amelia Chester.-Mr. McClenaghan.
Bill No. 202 (from the Senate), to amend The Canada Evidence Act as regards the evidence of persons charged with offences.- Mr. Kennedy (Edmonton).

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated 'by an asterisk.)

Mr. CHURCH:: Will the government introduce any legislation this session to repeal whmt is commonly known as "The Doherty Act," Revised Statutes of Canada, 1916, chapter 19, as amended in 1917, c. 30-1919, chapter 60 and 1919-2nd session, chapter 21?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Stands.


Thomas Langton Church: May I ask when the
Prime Minister will give me an answer to this very short question?


Hewitt Bostock: Stands.


PREMIER GOLD MINING COMPANY
Hon. Mr. TOLMIE:: 1.	Is the Department of Marine and Fisheries operating a public dock at the port of Sterwart, British Columbia ?
2.	Do the regular departmental tolls for freight crossing this dock dock appfly to all shippers?
3.	Does the Premier Gold Mining Company use this dock?
4.	Has this company been granted permission to con-truct ore bunkers on this dock or on adjoining property for the purpose of shipping ore or concentrates or other freight? If so, when?
5.	Does the said Premier Gold Mining Company pay rental for this privilege, and if so on what basis and how much per annum?
6.	Does the said Premier Gold Mining Company pay the same schedule of rates as are required of other shippers for shipping freight in and out over this dock?
7.	Is the said Premier Gold Mining Company paying the same demurrage as is required of the public and other shippers for freight left or stored upon said dock?

8.	Have any special concessions been granted to the said Premier Gold Mining Company in connection with this dock that differ in any way from those with which the general public have to conform? If so, whait are these concessions?


Hon. Mr. CARDIN:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes for freight other than the ore of the Premier Gold Mining Company.
3.	Yes.
4.	Yes-14th July, 1921.
5.	Yes-$20 per annum for site of freight shed. $75 per annum for site of ore bunker.
6.	Yes for freight other than ore. The Premier Gold Mining Company pays $400 per annum for coveying ore across the wharf.
7.	Having regard to the nature and extent of the business carried on by the Premier Gold Mining Company, instructions issued in 1923 that no demurrage should be charged. No representations have been received in the meantime respecting demurrag(e charged against others using the wharf and further inquiry will be made.
8.	Yes-The company was granted concessions to build its own freight shed on the wharf; to construct an ore bunker on the wharf property and to convey ore across the dock for which it pays the amounts set out in the answers to Nos. 5 and 6.


FISH PROPAGATION
Mr. MILLAR:: ___
What varieties of fish propagated in hatcheries, and how many of each variety have been deposited in the the three large lakes adjacent to Fort Qu'Appelle?


Hon. Mr. CARDIN:: The following varieties of fish were propagated in the federal hatcheries operated by the Department of Marine and Fisheries during the season 1925-26:-
Atlantic salmon, landlocked salmon, rainbow trout, cutthroat trout, steelhead salmon, Kamloops trout, sockeye salmon, spring salmon, cohoe salmon, pink salmon, speckled trout, whitefish, salmon trout, cisco, pickerel, brown trout, yellow perch.
In addition to the above, a few black bass and crappie fingerlings were received from the North Dakota Game and Fish Commission in exchange for pickerel eggs.
The following distributions have been made to the lakes adjacent to Fort Qu'Appelle since the hatchery at that point opened:-*

Tariff Advisory Board
Echo-Katepwe-Lebret-Sioux. Whitefish

1915:	1,000,000;	3,000,000;	500,000.1916:	3,000,000;	3,000,000;	2,000,000.1917:	8,000,000;	8,000,000;	8,497,000.1918:	12,000,000	10,000.000	; 10,085,000.
Tullibee-
1918: 9,000.
Whitefish-
1919: 12,000,000; 12,000.000; 9,039,000.
1921: 2,575,000; 1,000,000; 1,000,000.
1922: 10,000,000; 4,000,000 ; 4,000,000;
4.000.	000.
1923: 5,750,000; 4,000,000 ; 2,720,000;
4.000.	000
1924: 3,525,000; 3,010,550; 1,178,000.
Cisco-[DOT]
1924: 1,260,000.
Whitefish-
1925: 2,335,000; 2,000,000; 2,250,000;
3.020.000.
Pickerel-
1925: 470,000.
Perch-
1925: 1,350,000.
Cisco-
1925 : 2,069,700 ; 500,000; 1,500,000; 1,500,000.
In addition to the above Ketepwe lake in 1923 received 315 fingerling black bass and 285 fingerling crappie, which were received from the North Dakota Fish and Game Commission in exchange for pickerel eggs.
ONION WAREHOUSE AT LEAMINGTON Mr. GOTT:
1.	To whom was the buiilding contract let by the government for the construction of the onion warehouse at Leamington, Ontario?
2.	What was the contract -price?
3.	Were any special stipulations contained in th? contract? If so, what were -the specific requirements?
4.	At what ipoin-t in western Ontario is another warehouse to be, or is -being, constructed?
5.	How much money has been expended to date on this venture and how much is proposed to be expended on completion of same?


Hon. Mr. KING (Kootenay):: 1.	and 2. Contract for building to J. A. E. Burrows for $12,500. Contract for crates to Zimmerman Bros, for $6,900.
3.	Nothing more than was required for frame building for storage of onions.
4.	Erieau, Ont., site leased from Chatham-Wallaceburg and Lake Erie Railroad Co. for 20 years at $1 per year with option of renewal for another period of 20 years on the same terms. Plans prepared for building.
5.	No expenditure on Erieau warehouse. Estimated cost of building including crates, $14,000 to $15,000.


PELEE ISLAND PIER
Mr. GOTT:: 1.	To whom was the contract let for the construction of extension to west pier at Pelee island, Ontario, during the year 1925?
2.	What was the contract price?
3.	Were tenders advertised for the work?
4.	If so, how many tenders were received and from whom?
5.	What was the tender price submitted by each person or company?


Hon. Mr. KING (Kootenay):: 1.	Ed. Conroy, Peterboro, Ont.
2.	$32,757.50, unit prices.
3.	Yes.
4.	and 5. On the first call for tenders, September, 1923, the following bids were received.
Wm, Bermingham &	Son	..	..$36,979	80W. L. Forrest	
39,710	20
These tenders were considered too high, and new tenders were called for February, 1924, with the following result:
Ed. Conroy	$32,757	50MeDougal Bros	
33,091	85W. L. Forrest	
36,770	00Considine-Reid, Limited	..	.. 37,096	60Wm. Bermingham &	Son	..	.. 40,037	00


TARIFF ADVISORY BOARD
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. JOHN EVANS (Rosetown):: Mr. Speaker, some days ago the Prime Minister informed the House that the matter of having the evidence given before the Tariff Advisory Board made available for hon. members was under consideration. May I ask for information now?


Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, such information as is printed will be available for members of the House.


Mr. MEIGHEN:: Will the minister say
what information will be printed?


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the agitation is to have all the evidence printed. I know a number of gentlemen who are shorthand writers would like to be employed to take the evidence. I have not had a talk with the chairman' of the board as to that feature, but we want to keep down the expense as much as possible, and he is insisting that such evidence as is introduced must be put in writing.

C. N. R.-Alleged Patronage


CUSTOMS REGULATIONS-AUTOMOBILES
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. W. G. McQUARRIE (New Westminster) :: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Customs (Mr. Boivin) whether any change is contemplated in the regulations with regard to the admission of American automobiles? As I understand it, at the present time the regulations provide that when a man comes to this country as a tourist he can bring in his car and use it for a certain length of time, but if he comes here for the purpose of looking after an investment, or perhaps making an investment, he has to place his car in a garage and not use it at all. I believe representations have been forwarded to the minister-I know I have sent some in myself-and a great many protests have been made as to the present regulations, particularly from British Columbia. It seems to me that these regulations are not reasonable,-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


William Garland McQuarrie: -and certainly they are working a hardship.
lion. GEORGE H. BOIVIN (Minister of Customs and Excise): Mr. Speaker, no change whatever has been made in the regulations admitting automobiles temporarily since I assumed charge of the Department of Customs. During the past few weeks I have received several representations from hon. members on both sides of the House pointing out cases where, in my opinion, the present regulations worked considerable hardship on Americans desiring to enter Canada. The rule so far has been that a bona fide tourist may enter his car for thirty days, and if he desires to give a bond he may enter it for six months. It has been ruled in the department, however, and regulations have been framed, to the effect that any person coming into Canada for commercial purposes, in other words, deriving any pecuniary benefit from his visit, should not use his automobile without paying the duty thereon. As I stated a moment ago, there are a few cases where this appears to me to be a hardship, but with the stress of woik in the department I have been unable so far to give due consideration to the regulations and suggest any amendment to council This, however, will be done just as soon as ihe session is over.
Mr. A. de WITT FOSTER (Hants-Kings): Mr. Speaker, before the minister sits down, may I ask if he will take into immediate consideration the case of a person who, having

been in Canada for six or eight months, has made application to the department to have his car released from storage for a couple of weeks in order to put it in repair before starting back to the United States? Will the minister say whether or not he will allow that car to be released for repairs?


Mr. BOIVIN:: That particular instance has not been brought to my attention, but if it is it will be considered on its merits and decided accordingly.


Mr. WOODSWORTH:: Since there is money lying idle in the Canadian banks, does not the minister think we should be protected against American investments?


CANADA SHIPPING ACT, AMENDMENT
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. A. C. CASSELMAN (Grenville-Dundas):: On April 20 first reading was given to Bill No. 23, to amend the Canada Shipping Act. Can the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Cardin) tell us when we may expect to have an opportunity of moving the second reading of this bill?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: Answering a question put to me the other day regarding contemplated amendments to the Canada Shipping Act, I said that, as we had made up our minds to introduce next session a complete revision of the act, the government did not propose to bring down any amendments this year. In view of this decision we are hardly in a position to help the hon. member advance the bill he has on the order paper.


Arza Clair Casselman: Does the minister
realize that this is the very answer that has been given for a number of years whenever amendments to the act have been proposed?


Pierre-Joseph-Arthur Cardin: I do not know what answers may have been given in the past. '


CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS- ALLEGED PATRONAGE
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. L. W. JOHNSTONE (Cape Breton North-Victoria):: I want to ask the Minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Dunning) a question based upon a telegram I received this morning:
Grand Narrows, C.N.R. Firms doing construction work on railway here refuse to hire men unless recommended by Liberal leader of this district.
Is the patronage system still in existence in the Department of Railways?
Hon. CHARLES A. DUNNING (Minister of Railways and Canals): I have had many

Supply-Public Works
complaints of that nature from this side of the House and there seems to be an impression abroad among members in this quarter that the patronage system is in existence-in the hands of the party opposite. I have no knowledge of the particular instance referred to and can only reply in the words used by the president of the road before the special committee when that question was discussed: I shall be pleased to call the attention of the management of the Canadian National Railways to the particular matter to which the hon. member has referred.
,Mr. MANION:	In view of what the
Minister of Railways has said about patronage being in the hands of this party, would he be kind enough to give me the name of someone over here whom I can approach to get appointments for some of my friends?


PELEE ISLAND CABLE AND TELEGRAPH SERVICE
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ECOLES J. GOTT (South Essex): I desire to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works (Mr. King, Kootenay) in view of the following communication I have received from Pelee island:
Dear Sir:
Pelee island is still without telegraphic or cable communication. Last week a telegram was sent to me by people who were not aware that the cable was out. It came to Leamington and was sent to the island on the steamer Pelee. It was delivered to me but the boat had left for the mainland and I could not reply. Through this service I lost a considerable amount of money and desire to lodge a complaint with you against this insulting service. I know you are net directly to blame for the inactivity of the department, but it has been stated in circles here-
Sou. hon. MEMBERS: Order.
Hewitt Bostock: The hon. member had
better put his question.


Mr. GOTT:: In view of the fact that I have made representations to the minister on this particular question before,-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Eccles James Gott: *-and as this is the seventeenth of June-


Hewitt Bostock: I would ask the hon.
member to state his question.


Eccles James Gott: I want to know what progress has been made with repairs to the Pelee island cable; what has caused the delay; when the island will be connected with the mainland for telegraphic purposes; and further, whether, in view of the political stripe of the representative of the constituency,- [DOT]


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. member having put his question, must not go further.


Hon. J. H. KING (Kootenay, Minister of Public Works):: I would suggest that the
question be put on the order paper. If the hon. member wants to get some advantage from it he had better put it in that form.


Hewitt Bostock: That is the rule.


DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS
[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Duff in the chair.	.
Public Works-New Brunswick
Barker's-wharf repairs	$ 2,SOO
Bay du Vin-wharf repairs	 4,000
Burn's (Belle Isle Bay)-wharf improvements	1,150
Burton Court House-wiharf repairs	 2,500
Cape Bald-breakwater repairs	 8.400
Caraquet (Young Wah-rf)-wharf protection
and repairs	 21,000
Caraquet-repairs .to ice protection	blocks..	1.500
Bscuminac-harbour improvements	 50,000
Grand Harbour (Ingall's Head)

breakwater..	25,000
Green Point-pier	 16,000
Harbours and Rivers Generally-repairs and
improvements!	 45,000
Harvey Bank-wharf repairs	 1,100
Lower Caraquet-wharf repairs	 9,000
Mill's Point-wharf enlargement and	repairs..	28.400
Oak Point-wharf repairs	 1,700
Petit Rocher-breakwater repairs	 3,100
Riehibucto Cape-'repairs to breakwater and
ipier	 3,000
Shediac-wharf repairs	 19,600
Shippigan-wharf repairs	 6,900
Shippigan Gulley-repairs to breakwaters and
breastworks	 8,000
Stonehaven-breakwater repairs	 3,300
Tracadie-wharf repairs	 15,000
White Head-wharf repairs		2,700
Mr. ROGERS:: What is the explanation of the $50,060 for Escuminac harbour improvements?


James Horace King: This is a revote for the construction of 310 feet of breakwater. The contract was entered into on December 7, 1925, and the proposed construction was fully discussed in the House last year. It is intended to give the fishermen of the community some protection against storms. We had four tenders, the lowest of which, from the Burpee Construction Company, was accepted.


Mr. HANSON:: Will the minister put the whole thing on Hansard?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would rather
not; it would not be wise. The lowest tender was $43,991 and the highest $44,952, so that there was pretty close competition. As
Supply-Public Works

to the necessity for the work, I can only repeat what I said last year: it is needed in the interests of the fishermen. I am told this work will be of great benefit.
Mr.	ROGERS:	You	had the vote last
year. Why was it not gone on with?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member will know, from his experience as a minister, that we get supplies very late, usually in June or July. This is a new work of some magnitude. Plans and specifications had been prepared and the work was not let until December.
Mr.	HANSON:	For	the benefit of the
committee, I should like to give a little history of this item. In the fall of 1924 there was a by-election in the county of Northumberland, and one of the prices of the success of the government candidate on that occasion was this vote.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh no, no.
Mr.	HANSON:	The	contract has beenactually let and the contractor is on the ground, and this vote will have to go through. I hope the money will not be wasted. Will the minister tell me, is it still the intention to carry out the further project which involves an expenditure of $260,000? If so, I would	ask him to	pause and not proceed
further, as I believe this expenditure will not effect the end which he has in view, laudable as it may be, for this reason; I am advised by those who know the conditions on the north shore, by competent engineers, that this work will not survive the ice conditions that prevail there. Before the minister commits the department or the government to any further expenditure I would ask him to get the opinion of one of the best engineers in his department, Mr. Gray, of the city of St. John, who knows the ground thoroughly and the conditions that obtain in that part of the country, and to ask him for a report. If Mr. Gray will report that this work can survive the ice conditions in the Northumberland straits, I will withdraw my opposition to this vote or to the project. I do not wish now to be taken as opposing the project, because the government is committed to it, the contractor is on the ground, the material is all assembled and the men must be paid for their work, but I am calling the minister's attention to the larger aspect, because this, as I understand it, is only the first vote of a very considerable expenditure, involving at least $250,000 which is a very large sum of money to spend in that particular locality, with the exposed conditions that prevail there and -
with the ice conditions that will always prevail. I do not think this project will be a success. If it could be made a success, if the conditions were such that this structure could stand, I would not have very much opposition to it, because those of us who live along the coast know the exposed conditions that prevail with respect to the fishermen's business, and if at a reasonable cost we can better those conditions, I do not think any man on either side of the House would be opposed to a fair expenditure of public money for that purpose. I know something about it, I have made it my business to inquire of men competent to speak and they tell me this structure will not stand the ice conditions. Has the department investigated the project from that aspect? The question of the by-election is over and gone. This vote was designed to return the government candidate in Northumberland, but failed in that respect; therefore let us drop it and view the proposition from a business standpoint. Has the minister in his record a report with respect to the effect of the ice conditions there? My opinion is that the structure will not stand the conditions prevailing in the Northumberland straits, because it is too much exposed, and there is too great danger of the ice lifting such a structure. It will not stand for three years. That is the information given to me by an engineer whose name I will be glad to give the minister, and when he sees the name I think he will be glad to sit up and take notice.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would be glad
to have it.
Mr. HANlSON:	I will give it privately
but not publicly.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: All right. I think
it is unnecessary to say that this structure was undertaken and money voted for it at the last session of parliament. It has been under consideration for many years, and many representations have been made as to the necessity and desirability of the work. All that the government pledged themselves to do was to erect the present structure. 1 made that very plain last year during the discussion of this item. With reference to the question of whether the construction will stand or not, I may inform my hon. friend that in the case of new work of this character involving a large expenditure, the territory and the nature of the work are dealt with by the district engineer. He submits plans and his plans and the specifications go to a board of engineers in the department. Mr. Gray is the engineer in St. John. He is on the

Supply-Public Works
.staff of engineers and if he is of the opinion that the work will not stand it is his duty as a public works engineer to advise the board. I do not think he has made any representations.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not say he had.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: But the hon.
member said that we should consult Mr. Gray.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Yes.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Gray will
be consulted, but the work has been before the engineering board in the department. In the case of the lower St. Lawrence where we have a tremendous quantity of ice and difficult conditions, the department has Shad experience, and should be able to judge whether this work is proper or not and whether it will stand. Our report is that it will stand. The contract is a good one. It is below7 the estimated cost of the department, and I hope the work will stand as we have been told it will. There are 1,700 or 1,800 people who will be benefited by this work, and those who know the Maritime? and the conditions there to-day will surely be in sympathy with any policy calculated to assist the people who try to make their living down by the sea.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I am glad to hear the
minister's statement that Gray will be consulted. That is all to the good.


Mr. ICING (Kootenay):: You have suggested it, and I have no objection to it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I did not think you would, because Gray is a first-class man in whom I have great confidence, and if he puts his imprimatur on this work I think it would satisfy the public mind; at all events it would satisfy me, but perhaps that does not make much difference. There is a larger aspect however. The minister stated that the government's commitment did not go beyond the one unit, and I would ask the minister to consider this matter most carefully before making any further commitment. I agree that if the work can be done, and if it will be capable of withstanding the ice conditions, then much good may come from it. If we can do anything to improve the conditions of the fishermen on that exposed work that will not be a waste of the public money, I will not oppose it. I am not questioning the good faith of the government in this action, although we all realize the inception of this transaction.
Mr. M'acLAREN: There are two questions I wish to ask. First, does this vote cover the building of a wharf at Mispec in St. John county? The minister may remember that he received a petition from a very considerable number of fishermen at that point, pointing out that they had no protection in their occupation, coming and going out into the bay of Fundy. I think they asked for a small wharf which would act as a breakwater as well as a wharf. I feeli that this is a real need to enable the fishermen to carry on their occupation. Would the minister inform us if there is any sum in this vote which will help to meet that need? The minister shakes his head. Will he inform us then if he has this matter under consideration, and if he is prepared to look into it with a view to putting up such a small structure?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am glad my hon. friend has mentioned this matter. It is true that there has been a petition before the department, but as my hon. friend and the members generally know, the department receives many requests for works of this character. The matter, however, will receive consideration and the work be reported on. There is nothing in the present estimates to take care of that expenditure.


Mr. MacLAREN:: I hope we shall receive some favourable indication the next time the matter is brought to the attention of the minister. The other matter I wished to bring up is that of the need of protection for the fishermen at Lomeville, in the same county. That is an important centre, and the village is devoted to fishing of a valuable character. There is a pier there, but the water is very shallow so that the fishermen cannot get in for shelter for their boats and for their lives in bad weather. It is a fishing village of considerable importance, and I hope the minister can give us some assurance that there is some item in this vote which will help to meet their needs.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would say in
reply to my hon. friend that the reports that have been made to the department for work at this point were made subsequent to the making up of these estimates. I think in addition to an extension of the breakwater, they are requesting also dredging, to deepen the channel at that point. The matter is before the engineering department, and is receiving consideration.
Supply-Public Works


Murray MacLaren: I might point out to the minister that I do not think there is any application for an extension of the breakwater. I think they are asking for certain repairs. I know personally that this wharf does require repairs, but what is essential is dredging, so that the boats can get to the wharf, because at present the water is so shallow that they cannot get in there.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The repairs to the structure will amount practically to a reconstruction, because they are very heavy repairs. Minor repairs could be taken care of out of the general vote, but I understand that the dredging is the larger item, and that is being investigated.


Murray MacLaren: Will the minister give me some indication that he will have this matter closely followed up? I know as a matter of fact that many men imperil their lives on many occasions during the fishing season. They have not the shelter that they are fairly entitled to.


Mr. PRICE:: I would direct the minister's attention to the item of $8,400 for repairs to the breakwater at Cape Bald. I would point out that the expenditure in my constituency, the county of Westmorland, does not seem t.o be very large in view of the requirements there. I was in hopes that the minister might be able to announce that the work of construction of a post office at Moncton would be proceeded with this year, especially in view of the fact that the net revenue received from the post office at the city of Moncton is $331,640 per annum, Moncton standing sixth in the list of revenue producers in the whole of Canada. Tenders were called for and an estimate has been made that the post office could be constructed for $205,000, or an amount considerably less than the net revenue derived from that, post ofiice in one year. I was therefore in hopes that the work would be proceeded with this year. I should like to ask if the minister has this matter under consideration, and will have this work proceeded with as soon as possible. I do not propose at this time to discuss the expenditure that was made there in connection with the purchase of that property. It was no doubt a considerable sum over and above what the property is assessed for, but I shall not criticize that at this time.
In connection with the Cape Bald breakwater, 1 would point out to the minister that there is a need which is really deserving of as much consideration as the repairs to the breakwater if not more, and that is an ex-
[Mr. J. H. King.)
tension of the pier head at that point. The _ wharf is used largely as a shelter for small fishing boats and vessels that come in there for protection against the tides, and considerable loss of property has occurred there in the last few years. While the pier is of some service, it really requires an extension of at least 100 feet. This is a farming and fishing locality, largely inhabited by French-Acadian people, and they have their difficulties to meet with at that place. In view of the large revenue that is being turned into the federal treasury from my constituency, I would like some assurance from the minister that he will see that this pier head is extended this season, in order that these fishermen may have protection and their boats and motors given ample protection during the season. I am very glad to see this item for repairs, but I would like an assurance from the minister -that the pier head will be extended at that point in order that better protection may be afforded.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have the advantage of personal knowledge of conditions at this point. I visited Cape Bald two years ago, and I found the breakwater in very, very bad condition. In fact, unless the necessary repairs had been made there would have been no breakwater there at all. This item of 18,400 is to complete and retain the present breakwater. I agree with my hon. friend that an extension of the pier head or front of the breakwater would be of advantage to the fishermen and give them greater shelter, but the most essential thing just now is to preserve the pier, and that is what this vote is for. The representations of my hon. friend with regard to an extension will be inquired into. I think there is something in what he says. I know the position there is very exposed, and that there are great difficulties for those who are engaged in fishing.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What improvements are contemplated at Burton court house? This place is in my constituency and I should like to get information as to what is proposed.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is proposed to rebuild the face and outer end of each side of the wharf, from the low water level. We are doing that work in concrete. Formerly these wharves were of timber construction, but since we have taken them over we are using concrete, hoping that the work will be more of a permanent character and that there will be no need for annual repairs.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The repaiis are necessary on account of the ice?

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William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I hope the experiment will be a success. Will the work be done by tender or by day labour?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is repair work, and the engineer's recommendation is that it be done by day labour.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If the work were done by contract it would be done just as well and cost probably less. I am not going to press the point but I make that suggestion for the minister's consideration. I think he will save money by acting on it, and get just as good a job done.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend knows from his own experience that when you go to repair these old structures it is veiy difficult to tell what the cost will be until you take the structures down, and as you go down you find the condition, probably a little 'better than you anticipated or somewhat worse. We find from experience that these structures can be better repaired under the control of departmental officials than they can by contract.


Leslie Gordon Bell: Will the minister inform me whether the item of $45,000 for harbours and rivers generally includes any provision for the small structure I spoke to him about at Hopewell cape, in Albert county? I do not remember whether I spoke to the minister before this estimate was made up or not. If no provision for the purpose mentioned is made in the present vote I should like to know if the minister contemplates placing an item in the supplementary estimates?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would -take it from my hon. friend's remarks that only a small expenditure is required there?


Leslie Gordon Bell: Yes.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If it is found by the engineering department that an expenditure is necessary for the maintenance of the wharf in question, it will come out of the vote of $45,000, which is at the disposal of the department to meet cases of the kind suggested by my hon. friend. We have no special item here for the Hopewell cape wharf.


Robert Rogers: Would the minister explain how he proposes to expend the $45,000?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There are a few items reported by the engineering department that will be charged against this vote.
At Bathurst there will be an expenditure for wharf repairs of $300; at Bayside, $250; at Bedford, $200 and at Campbellton, $300. These are deep water wharves. At Cassils, Northumberland county, it is proposed to expend $150 on wharf repairs. For Cocagne an item is noted but the amount is not stated. There is an item for Lameque, Gloucester county, but the amount is not given. In all there are probably thirty items varying in amounts from $100 to $600.


Robert Rogers: They are all small repairs?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. Last year the sum of $25,577 was spent for this purpose.


Murray MacLaren: Is there any vote for Lorneville included in these items?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. I have the place noted here but there is no amount set out for it.


Mr. ROBICHAUD:: Is there any provision for expenditure for wharf repairs at Upper Caraquet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The item is noted but no amount is set out.


Leslie Gordon Bell: Did I understand from the minister that it is intended to proceed with the work at Hopewell cape, or that the supplementary estimates will contain a vote for the purpose? I did not quite gather whether the minister said he intended to do the work there or not.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is not included in 'the list I have. However, I will cause inquiries to be made and if it is a work that should come within the provision of this vote, I shall be glad if the engineers will recommend it to be done. Whatever action is taken will be on their recommendation.


Leslie Gordon Bell: Is there any provision in this estimate for the wharf at Tynemouth creek, in St. John county?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Leslie Gordon Bell: I wonder if some reference has not been made to it by the resident engineer at St. John. There is only a small amount of work required. I understood that some recommendation had been sent into the department regarding it but the nature of the recommendation I do not know.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall be glad to have inquiries made. I do not happen to have the information here at present.
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Richard Burpee Hanson: Is the item of $21,000 for a wharf at Caraquet a new item, and what work is it proposed to do there?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The proposed
work is close-piling the easterly face for a total length of 320 feet, the westerly or sea face at the outer end, 60 feet, and the westerly corner of the pier head, 25 feet.


Mr. HANISON:: Close-piling?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, that will be done with creosoted piles, estimated to cost $19,000. There will also be re-3 p.m. quired 7.500 pounds of iron at a cost of $750. For contingencies, $1,250 is provided bringing the total cost up to $21,000. It is an important structure as my hon. friend knows.


Robert Rogers: It is a new item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is a new item for repairs. The place where the work is to be done is an important fishing settlement in New Brunswick, with a population of 5,250.


Robert Rogers: This structure is the main wharf at Caraquet?


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall the item carry?
Carried.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, Mr. Chairman, not all the items. There are a few here I should like to get information about. For example Green Point, is that on the north shore?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is in Charlotte county. I think it is a revote of $16,000 and the money is required to complete the construction of a pier now under contract by Mr. Charleson.


Richard Burpee Hanson: You are looking after that constituency well.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: The member for the county needs it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I had a suspicion it was in Gloucester county.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: You should know


Richard Burpee Hanson: There are many demands, of course, for public works all along the coast there? Are there any other items for expenditures in Gloucester county in this list outside of Caraquet and Green Point?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Shippigan, I think, is in Gloucester county.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Shippigan has never been
off the estimates in the last generation. I should like to ask the minister about wharf repairs at Shediac. A large portion of the vote is a re-vote. What work was done there last year and was it carried out under contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount is
required to complete the repairs to the wharf at Shediac. The work which is under contract to F. L. Boone, consists of closing up and filling with cribwork the first four spans at the shore end, laying a gravel covering on the shore block and the first four blocks and spans, a length of 371 feet; and renewing in creosoted timber the entire floor system of the remainder of the wharf, a length of 736.5 feet. There were six tenders, the prices varying from $16,966 to $24,454. The lowest tender was accepted. It is not necessary for me to tell my hon. friend because he knows better than I do the importance of Shediac as a community and the importance of this wharf.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would like to ask the
minister with respect to the breakwater at Ingall's Head. This has been in the estimates, I believe, for two years. At least it was in last year and it is being revoted this year. Is it the intention of the government to let the contract for this work this year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is under
Grand Harbour (Ingall's Head) breakwater. It is a revote of $25,000 to provide for the completion of the breakwater at Grand Harbour now under contract with Messrs. J. Flood and Sons, Limited.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was in
the supplementary estimates last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Richard Burpee Hanson: What was the contract
price and the range of the tenders?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The lowest tender was by Messrs. John Flood and Sons, Limited, $21,346. The highest tender was $29,099.94. The order in council was passed on September 26, 1925.


Murray MacLaren: Where is Mill's Point?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mill's Point is
in Northumberland county. This amount of $23,400 is required for the completion of the work in connection with enlargement and repairs to the wharf at Mill's Point under contract by L. Doyle of Douglastown, New Brunswick.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would like to call the
minister's attention to the absolute necessity of doing something at Castalia, Grand

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Manan. That is five or six miles east of Grand Harbour. I had the necessity of this impressed upon me by an experience down there last October. When the wind is blowing from the east it is absolutely necessary for the people living at Castalia to take their boats for miles down the coast in order to save them. This is not a new project; it has been before the department for many years. The expenditure was, I think, authorized at one time; indeed, if I mistake not, a small portion was built, and the matter then dropped. I do not know who is responsible for that but I would suggest that it is one of the most exposed places on the island of Grand Manan which without doubt is one of the most exposed positions along the whole bay of Fundy coast.
I would ask the minister if he would be good enough to direct his engineers on the bay of Fundy waters to look into the feasibility and the necessity of this work from the standpoint of protection to the large fishing interests at that point. They have expensive boats costing $2,000 or $3,000 and they have absolutely no harbour against easterly gales which are the prevailing winds in the fall of the year. Proprietors of fishing stands, very substantial men told me they had to send their boats for miles to a harbour further down the coast of the island; that if they did not do that they would lose their property. The Castalia people, I think, have every right to expect the building of a breakwater especially from the party to which the minister belongs. In season and out of season they have been more or less faithful supporters, sometimes greater in numbers than at others, of the Liberal party. They certainly deserve something at the hands of that party. I do not know whether that adds any weight to my plea or not, but I make it because I was convinced by the best possible evidence in the world, eye-witness evidence, in the course of a big easterly gale that detained us on the island for hours, of the necessity of something being done to protect the property of those people. The loss of one boat would wipe out the owner's savings of a life-time. It is really more necessary to do something at that point than to spend the money the minister is spending at Ingall's Head. I am not going to say anything about that. I have an opinion formed from a visit to the locality, but if that breakwater will protect property by all means let it be built if the country can afford to build it. I think however, the government would be failing in its duty if it did not do something at Castalia.
I would also like to call the attention of the minister to the necessity of extending the breakwater at North Head, Flagg's Cove. There is a good breakwater there, but it is not quite long enough. In the course of a big easterly gale with rollers coming in, the present breakwater needs another unit to protect completely shipping in that harbour. It is quite an important point where passenger steamers land!. There is not the protection that there ought to be in that harbour at low water for the fishing fleet. I do not think the expenditure would be very large. I ask the minister to be good enough to look into the matter.
There is another place there, but at the moment I cannot recall where it is. I will get the information and speak to the minister with reference to it.


Mr. GRIMMER:: I am in full accord with everything that has been said by the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) in connection with the construction of a breakwater at Castalia. For the last four years representations have been made by myself and others to have that breakwater constructed, and the minister is fully aware of the necessity for it. Last year, if I am not mistaken, he said he would look into the matter. Has any investigation been made since then?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We have received reports and what the hon. gentleman says is true. It would be better for the people of the locality if we could do this work, but this is only one of many similar requests that come to us from time to time. It hag been the general wish to keep the estimates within bounds, and we have been trying to do so. Grand Manan is undoubtedly a great fishing community. The people there live practically on the sea. There is no doubt about the necessity for increased facilities, and I hope some time to be able to do something for these people.
Mr. HANiSON:	I do not want to enter
into any controversy on the question where work should have been begun, but I do not think it should have been undertaken first at Grand Harbour because that is a good natural harbour, as the name implies. On the other hand, the Castalia shore is the most exposed on the whole island. Grand Manan is in the teeth of the Bay of Fundy, and is exposed to every wind that blows. It is not possible to build harbours on the west side, as the minister will know if he has ever been on the north channel. But on the east side there
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should be given a population of 3,000 people some accommodation to enable them to carry on. These people devote their entire time and attention to fishing. If the government wants to retain the population of that locality two things should be done. First of all, transportation is needed to facilitate the moving of products to market. We are negotiating with the minister's colleague in this direction and he is most sympathetic. The officials of his department know just what is required and are endeavouring to fill the bill. The second requisite, which is practically the only thing which this government can give the people, is a little protection against the elements. I will not question any expenditures for the benefit of the fishermen if those expenditures are sound from the standpoint of location and if they have any merit at all, because I do think that whatever we can do for these hardy people, who take their lives in their hands every time they go on the ocean, we should certainly do, within reasonable limits, whether in Quebec, in New Brunswick or in Nova Scotia. If you do not do something along the lines I suggest you will not be able to retain that population. The people will not stay there unless they can get some encouragement. I appeal to the judgment of the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Robichaud) whether I am not right The fishing population there have been rather discouraged in recent years; prices have not been good and they have not done so well. But they are living in hopes of better days and are asking the government for sympathetic consideration. I should like to see that consideration given on both sides of the House. Fishermen as a class deserve well at our hands and we should do everything we can for them within reason.
Mr. RCBI'CHAUD: I must commend the hon. member (Mr. Hanson) on his sense of justice and fair play. Certainly something should be done for these fishermen. There are a few items in the estimates for expenditures in my constituency, but they do not cover everything that is needed. It has often been said that these items are vote-catchers, but looking over the estimates I find that quite frequently money has gone to parts of my constituency in which I did not secure a majority. I would call the attention of the minister to the urgent need for improving conditions at Lameque on the island of Ship-pigan where there is a large fleet engaged fMr. Hanson.]
exclusively in cod fishing. Last fall, a few days before the election, I was an eye-witness to a lamentable state of affairs. No fewer than seven or eight valuable fishing craft, equipped with auxiliary motor power, were crushed one against another, so that the damage was almost beyond repair. This was due to the congestion at that point. The industry has developed to such an extent that the present wharf is no longer able to cope with the great traffic. It is therefore imperative that all these structures be kept in repair and enlarged as necessity demands. I would glso direct the minister's attention to the condition at Grand Anse in my constituency where owing to the fact that large sums have been required to keep other w'orks in repair nothing has been spent in recent years, so that the *wharf is now in a deplorable condition. I am afraid it will become useless unless it is veiy soon repaired.
So far as items relating to other parts of the province are concerned, I cordially agree with what has been said by the hon. member. Every item is absolutely necessary. For example, Escuminae is bound to become one of the most important fishing points in New Brunswick. At least 360 salmon licenses are issued there annually and the fishermen are engaged in one of the most lucrative branches of the industry. We know that salmon is becoming more and more a luxury in great demand and large shipments are made from New Brunswick to the British market. They reach the Old Country in first-class condition either chilled or frozen. In this connection a word might be said about the cold storage business. We have at Montreal a cold storage plant on which we have spent some $3,000,000. I visited the plant a few years ago and was astonished to find that there was not even a trough there to receive fresh fish. I drew the attention of the manager to the fact and he admitted that it was a most serious oversight. I have heard since that accommodation has been provided for chilling and freezing fish at the Montreal plant, and I trust the same facilities will be provided at Quebec. The fishermen of the Maritime provinces need accommodation above everything else. We need facilities to market our produce-not on the Canadian market, because we have no market in Canada our population being too small, but in the markets of the world, especially of the British Isles, central Europe and the countries to the south of the equator.

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Mr. FISH:: I notice a vote for Oak Point
wharf repairs, $1,700. Has provision also been made for repairing the wharf at Neguac?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, the engineer recommends an expenditure of $400 or $500.


Charles Elijah Fish: The road leading along the
shore 'at Burnt Church needs repairing. It was protected by a log breastwork, but during a storm last season this was torn away and the road along the shore practically destroyed for several hundred feet.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Usually the roadways leading to the wharves are under provincial control. In some cases the Dominion government has assumed jurisdiction. We have no report yet from the district engineer with regard to what my hon. friend refers to. I shall be very glad to make inquiries.


Charles Elijah Fish: I was very glad to hear the minister say he is going to consider the suggestions made by the hon. member for York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) with regard to the Escuminac breakwater. _ It is true the proposal has been before the country for a number of years, but like many other proposals, although it was thought to be a good thing at the time it is not now considered to be quite so good. The fishermen down there are very doubtful with respect to it. In the first place, it is going to require very much more money. Then the distance of 310 feet will not afford much protection; certainly this will have to be extended. The fishermen say that if the gulley was dredged out they would not require the breakwater at all. It is a very rough place to build the breakwater, the bottom being of shaley rock, and it is very difficult to make fastenings hold in it. Then again, very few fishermen can get in there, and in case of a storm it is much safer and easier for them to run into the mouth of the river behind Fox island or Portage island for shelter. I would be very sorry to interfere with the expenditure of money in my county-I should like to see this money spent, and a great deal more-but I think we ought to get the fullest value in return. Our people down there feel that it would be of greater benefit to both the farmers and the fishermen, if this money and some more were put into the construction of a railway to connect with the railway at Loggieville. At present auto trucks are used to transport the fish from that section of the country up to the railway. I hope the minister will give
the suggestion serious consideration before he starts in with the breakwater. As I say, I should like to see the money spent there, but at the same time I should like to see full value secured for the expenditure. I congratulate the member for Gloucester (Mr. Robichaud), he certainly deserves very great credit, for a little over a third of the whole estimate for New Brunswick is going into his county.


Jean George Robichaud: My hon. friend is
getting more for his county than I am for mine.


Robert Watson Grimmer: What is the nature of the proposed expenditure of $2,700 for wharf repairs at White Head? Does it include dredging? This is necessary around the wharf.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, it is for repairs to the wharf, renewal of cap timbers, stringers and so forth, and it is recommended by the district engineer. In regard to the suggestion of my hon. friend from Northumberland (Mr. Fish), as I said before, the Escuminac harbour is not a new work. I find that in 1910 it was recommended by Mr. Loggie, later by the Hon. J. D. Hazen in 1913, and so on down to last year, when we were advised that this work would give considerable protection to the fishermen. Before committing parliament to further expenditure we must come to the House again for the necessary funds.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What about the appropriations not required?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In all there are some twenty-five or twenty-six items where the money has not been expended and is not required this year. Would my hon. friend like to have the list placed on Hansard?


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many items are dropped?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There has been expenditure under every item.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Of the appropriations not fully required, amounting to $92,100, how much money has been spent?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is the list: Beaver Harbour, wharf repairs, $3,000 voted; $2,605.69 expended. Black's Harbour-


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend might hand the list to Hansard and so save time.
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(Following is the list referred to):
New Brunswick	Voted	Expended
	$ cts.	* cts.
Beaver Harbour-wharf repairs	
Black's Harbour-reconstruction of	3,000 00	2,605 69wharf approach	2,000 00	1,332 81Burnt Church-wharf repairs	
Campbellton-Repairs to market wharf	2,500 00	2,551 58and to deep water wharf	1,800 00	1,795 66Cocagne-wharf repairs	
Cole's Point-wharf repairs	800 00	738 722,700 00	2,228 91Dalhousie-repairs to deep water wharf	1,250 00	1,244 55Dipper Harbour-breakwater repairs. .	5,000 00	4,253 43Humphrey's-wharf repairs	1,500 00	773 56Loggieville-wharf repairs	1,000 00	1,047 78McAlpine's-wharf repairs	
McDonald's Point-wharf improve-	1,200 00	1,153 69ments	2,500 00	1,432 04Oromocto-wharf improvements	4,500 00	4,231 37Palmer's-wharf repairs	2,400 00	982 40Pointe du Chene-repairs to breakwater Port Elgin-dredging in Gaspereau	4,000 00	3,121 1324,000 00 1,000 00	23,986 89 907 21Rexton-wharf repairs	Rothesay-wharf repairs	
St. Andrew's-wharf improvements znd	900 00	899 20repairs	3,200 00	13 80St. George-wharf repairs	
St. John River-dredging at various	2,500 00	1,754 24wharves	11,600 00	10,542 21St. Stephen-wharf repairs	2,500 00	90 75Upper Jemseg-wharf improvements.. Wilson's Beach-repairs to breakwater	3,250 00	3,006 401,000 00 6,000 00	993 64Young's Cove-rebuilding wharf	3,743 8292,100 00


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Quebec-Harbours and rivers, $636,225.08
Robert Rogers: Will the minister explain the reason for the wharf extension and improvements at Cap de la Madeleine? This is an old familiar item.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman, *would we not get along better if you called each one of the Quebec items in turn?


William Duff: All right. I do not know that I can pronounce all the names.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is fine vocal
exercise.
Anse a Beau fils-reconstruction of and repairs to jetties, $3,200.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Carried.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Anse aux Gascons-wharf improvements, $4,000.
Richard Burpee Hanson: Where is that?


Robert Rogers: That is a revote.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the
contract let, if there was a contract? When was the work put in hand?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As a matter of fact there v'as veiy little expenditure. We are asking for a revote. There has been $159 spent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that done?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the date.


Henry Lumley Drayton: October or
September?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I imagine August or September. October is a pretty late month for work in that district.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think it would be September and October. That I think was in the supplementaries last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think so.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Beloeil village-Reconstruction of wharf, $4,600.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: The work to be done consists of rebuilding the whole work in concrete down to extreme low water level. The old cribwork structure with the stone filling will be removed to the necessary depth and width, and a reinforced concrete wall will be built all round, this wall to be four feet six inches thick at the base and twelve inches at the top. Removing old structure is estimated to cost $637.50, and concrete is estimated at about $3240. It is proposed to do the work by contract.


Robert Rogers: What is the total estimate of the cost of the work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is $4,600.


Robert Rogers: You only ask for $4,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think the item is $4,600.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Bonaveniture-wharf repairs, $3,000.
Item agreed to.
Cap a l'Aigle-wharf repairs, $13,900.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is reconstruction of cribwork 1,800 cubic yards to be done by contract. The estimated cost is $13,900. It serves a community on the St. Lawrence with a population of five hundred or six hundred inhabitants, and with quite a large tourist travel in the summer.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Cap de 3a Madeleine-wharf extension and improvement, $65,600.
Robert Rogers: There is a very large increase, something like $3,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Cap de la Madeleine is an important point and this expen-

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diture is required to provide for contract with Trepanier, for the construction of a freight shed 120 feet long by 60 feet wide, amounting to $9,000. This amount will clear up this part of the work undertaken under the vote of last year.


Robert Rogers: Has it been all completed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Not yet. It is under contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think this was in the supplementary estimates of last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think so.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Who is the contractor?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no contract now. Tenders have been invited again The work was not gone on with last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that not sad, because I understood the minister to say a moment ago that it took $9,000 to complete the contract with regard to the freight shed.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is what I
said. That was the freight shed. The repairs to the wharf not having beeen made, we could not proceed with the freight shed.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Who has the
contract for the freight shed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no contract at the present time. We could not proceed with the freight shed and the contractor has been relieved of his contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There was a contract and it has been abandoned because it was unworkable?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What money
has been spent under this vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The money spent was $4,191.77.


Henry Lumley Drayton: At what time
was that work commenced last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In August.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And stopped
when?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the date of the stopping of the work. I know there was a conflict between the contractors for the improvements and Ithe contractor for the freight shed, and the latter found he would have to abandon it and did abandon it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
date of the abandonment?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the information here.


Henry Lumley Drayton: At any rate,
this work for which authority was given in the supplementary estimates, was a matter of urgency; something had to be done and it was started last August. Did the work stop until after October? Was the work going on in October? I think the emergency is over now. I do not think there is any work going on at the present time, but I was wondering when the work was stopped. Was it the 2nd of November?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It would not be stopped as sharply as the 29t!h of October. I think it went on to the week after, probably till November 5.


Robert Rogers: Guy Fawkes day.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I explained to my hon. friend a few minutes ago, the only expenditure last year was $4,191.77. There was a contract entered into for a shed construction, but it was not found convenient for the contractor to proceed with that work, and the contract has been cancelled and new tenders are being asked for. It is proposed not only to build a shed but to extend the wharf. It is a very important structure.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can my hon. friend tell me who got the $4,000 odd?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It went largely
for labour, I think. O. and J. Poliquin were the contractors for the wharf improvements.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When did they start and when did they stop working? That is what I particularly want to find out. I think the work was kept up until the 5th of November.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They completed the work they had in hand, and the contract was closed out.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What work could they have had in hand?
Mr. KING (Kootenay); The repairs to the wharf.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Repairs are always in order, Mr. Chairman, whether they are political repairs or wharf repairs or anything else. I congratulate my hon. friend on the happy way in which these things synchronized.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
[Stage Direction]
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[Stage Direction]
Chandler-wharf reconstruction and extension, $90,000.
Robert Rogers: When did this item first appear?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Last year in the supplementaries. There is a contract with Messrs. Farley and Grant, for the replacement of a section of the wharf carried away by a storm in 1920, by an extension 367 feet long, the first 105 feet to be 22 feet wide, the next 62 feet widening out to 40 feet, and the head-block 200 feet long by 40 feet wide. Chandler is a point on the St. Lawrence where there has been a large expenditure and much development in the pulp and paper industry. Once this structure is repaired and put into shape, the industry will be in a position to ship by water, an advantage which has been denied to it to date.


Robert Rogers: What amount was spent
last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Practically nothing was spent last year. The contract was let in November.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There must
have been an oversight that time. Is my hon. friend sure that this contract was not let till November?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is not a
political department, but the Public Works department.


Robert Rogers: It was let rather late in
the season.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
date it was advertised in the local papers?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I suppose it would probably be in the latter part of October. The advertising usually takes three or four weeks.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Just how many weeks was this large work advertised?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in council was passed on November 13, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How many
weeks was this large contract advertised?


John Warwick King: About three
weeks.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Am I right
when I say it was advertised in October?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It might have
been the latter part of October.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does not my
hon. friend know it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the date.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will not my hon. friend agree with me that it was advertised at a very, very convenient season? If he cannot agree with me, I am afraid I shall have to ask him for the facts, and I think I have them. When does my hon. friend say the advertisement took place?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the date of the advertisement, but the advertising would take about three weeks, which would bring it to the latter part of October when this work was advertised. The order in council was passed on November 13, and the contract entered into on December 15, 1925.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Father Point-wharf repairs and improvements, $17,000.
Robert Rogers: This is a large sum. I would like some information on this item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to complete the contract with Messrs. Cloutier and Gaudreau for repairs and improvements to wharf. There was spent last year $17,432.94. The order in council was passed on August 20, 1925.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Grosse Isle-wlharf repairs, $9,900.
Robert Rogers: What about this?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to reconstruct the upper 5 feet of 180 feet of the approach, to repair and support the inner end on the west side by the construction of a concrete wharf 100 feet long, and to repair the stairway and effect minor repairs to the headblock. As my hon. friend knows, this is the quarantine station in the mouth of the St. Lawrence, which is largely used by the departments of Health and Immigration.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers generally-repairs and improvements, $75,000.
Robert Rogers: I hope the minister will give us a complete statement as to this item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount of $75,000 is required for general repairs and improvements to harbour and river works in the province of Quebec, which are under the control of this department. This vote is for unforeseen or small expenses that are not placed in the estimates as separate items. They are works recommended by the engineers, varying in cost from $125 to $800. Last year there was spent under this vote $74,496.

Supply-Public Works


Robert Rogers: My hon. friend will not require so much this year; there is no election in sight.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is a certain amount of work that will have to be done.


Robert Rogers: We would like a detailed statement.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I could not give a list of all the items, because that will not be known until the end of the year, but the expenditures proposed at the present time
are as follows:
List of Works Authorized 1926-27
Quebec-
Anse St. Jean-removable slip	%	10
Breche a Manon-removal boulders re descent
,to beach	 75
Batiscan

wharf repairs	 200
Beloeil-re guide booms	 55
Bagotville-re slip and hoisting blocks..	..	325
Father Point-extension to sidewalk	 300
Fassett-cutting ice around wharf	 21
Gaspe (Sandy Beach)-to complete wharf repairs	 700
Grande Riviere-repairs to wharf	 900
Hopetown-extension to cribwork (Miller &
Mann road)	 200
Isle Verte-repairs to wharf	 100
Levesque-repairs to wharf	 150
La Tuque-completion of wharf	 500
Les Eboulements-hoisting apparatus and slip 60
Lavakrie-repairs to wharf	 200
Lanoraie-repairs to wharf	 150
Peel Head Bay-general repairs	 800
Pointe-au-Pic-hoisting apparatus and slip.. 250 Perce (Laurier wharf)-repairs to shed.. ..	300
Quebec District-reels and floats	 250
Quebec District-repairs to instruments....	40
Riviere Nouveflle-protection works	 500
St. Simeon (Bonaventure co.)-protection works	675
St. Pierre les Becquets-construction of shed.	550
St. Francois du Lac-repairs to shed	 30
St. Jean, I.O.-movable slip	 10
St. Laurent, I.O.-movable slip	 30
Ste, Adelaide de Pabos-repairs to wharf.. 1,230
Ste. Emile-to lower slip	 75
St. Irenee-hoisting slip apparatus	 150
St. Simeon (Charlevoix co.)-hoisting slip apparatus	 350
St. Blase-St. Johns-Iberville-fencing rightof-way	 260
Varennes-repairs to shed	 20
St. Ours-repairs to wharf	 15
St. Andrews-repairs to wharf	 100
Vercheres-building cattle-yard on wharf.. ..	40
Grande Riviere-wharf repairs	 500
Vauvert-wharf repairs	 375
Nicolet-wharf repairs	 100
St. Roch (Richelieu co.)-wharf improvements	 275
Nicolet-repairs to shed	 500
Rimouski river-breakwater improvements.. 80
St. Barthelemi-fence right of way	 200
Lanoraie-wharf repairs	 300
Shrewsbury-wharf repairs	 125
Rigaud-wharf repairs	 100


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will the minister tell us how he managed to apportion the payments under that item last year? What works 140ll-295i
were commenced in August, what works were commenced "in September, what works were commenced in October, and what works were abandoned in November?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the date of the commencement of the work or the date of completion. These small matters are entirely in the hands of the engineering branch, and the work is done from time to time as occasion arises.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes, but my
hon. friend surely knows what the department is paying out. These things are generally kept paid up pretty well, or were things so much mixed up at the time of the election: that we cannot get any particulars at all?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am prepared to give my hon. friend a detailed statement. If he wants that detailed statement placed on Hansard I have no objection to it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have not asked for such a lot of information. What work cjid he give instructions for in September and October-we will drop off the August work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend is familiar with the practice of the department and the practice generally. We secured our money about July 1st last year, I think, and recommendations were made from time to time by the engineering department as to expenditures in different localities. Certain moneys were apportioned and expenditures made. I have not the dates but I imagine that most of the work was done in August, September, October and November; the other months would not be suitable.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I suppose my hon. friend cannot do any better. I am sorry that he cannot, but we will have to let it go.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think that is fair.


Mr. JACOBS:: Surely my hon. friend does
not suggest that there was any relation between the expenditures for public works and the elections?


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend will have observed that I am merely eliciting facts and that the facts synchronize, that is all.


Samuel William Jacobs: A happy coincidence.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Of course it
would be a happy coincidence. I entirely agree with the hon. gentleman that all these things are happy coincidences; the significant thing is that they all coincided with a certain
Supply-Public Works

event. Of course the ending was not quite as happy as my hon. friend thinks.' It is rather melancholy sometimes in its operation against the Conservative party and also in its operation against the interests of the Canadian rate payers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Malbaie-wharf repairs, $8,000.
Robert Rogers: What is this expenditure for?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: To repair the
damage done to the wharf by storms in November, 1925, by enlarging the approach with a reinforcing addition 210 feet long by 10 feet wide of round timber openfaced crib-work and by replacing 500 cubic yards of ballast. The work is under contract. Last year the expenditure was $1,492.35.


Robert Rogers: When was this contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The contract has not been let as yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Maria-wharf reconstruction, $11,500.
Robert Rogers: There was $9,000 voted for this work last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, part of this is a re-vote.


Robert Rogers: Give us the particulars of the proposed expenditure.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is intended to complete the contract with P. Nadeau & Sons for the removal and reconstruction upon a height of 4 feet 10 inches of a portion of the superstructure of the wharf. The amount of the contract is S12,S85.12.


Robert Rogers: When was the contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: On November
21, 1925.


Robert Rogers: There has been great delay in carrying it out.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: You cannot do
very much work after the 1st of November.


Robert Rogers: You had the whole of last year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Matane-to complete harbour improvements, Ham-menniLl Paper Co., Erie, Penn., contributing, $100,000 $55,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Here is an old friend. Is work still being taken from our artisans in that district?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The work will be completed this year. There is a re-vote of $55,000 which will carry on the construction and complete the work. In regard to the development there the House has been advised before that the Hammermill Paper Co. are contributing $100,000 towards this de-ve) opment.


Arthur Meighen: It is for their own development.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Difficulties have been encountered in carrying out the work, but it is hoped to clean it up this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is true that the Hammermill Company are contributing $100,000, but the work is absolutely for their own benefit and not for the benefit of anybody else. How much is the government contributing in order to round out the plans of the Hammermill Paper Co. and furnish facilities for them?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The estimated
cost according to the department will be $165,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Even accepting that figure the expenditure is going up. We were told last year that this was an emergency vote and that is why it appeared in the supplementaries. Let us see whether I am .right or not. If I am wrong I will apologize to the minister.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The matter has been before the House on previous occasions.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does my hon. friend say this was a supplementary vote last year or not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think it was in the main estimates. I have not last year's estimates before me but that is my recollection.


Robert Rogers: What amount did you
spend on this work last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The amount spent last year was $84,997.


Mr. MANION:: What did the whole vote of last year amount to?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It amounted to $140,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I have got last year's estimates and I cannot find this item there. The minister has the deputy in front of him and the deputy should know a great deal more about this than any other mem-

Supply-Public Works
ber of (he House. I want to know whether this was an emergency vote in the supple-mentaries last year, or whether it came under the general vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not sure but I know this, and my hon. friend knows it too: The Matane proposals have been before parliament for some two or three years. There was no emergency vote last year because we were committed to this expenditure and parliament voted $140,000. Whether the item appeared in the main estimates or in the supplementaries I am not sure.


Robert Rogers: And the sum of $84,000 ha3 been spent.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The sum of $84,997 has been spent.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The usual explanation of a supplementary vote is that it is to cover something which has turned up after the main estimates have 4 p.m. been brought down. The minister does not know whether this item was in the supplementary estimates last year or not. I think it was considered an emergency matter having regard to the estimates of last year. On what date was the contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There were two
contracts. The St. John Dry Dock Company had a dredging contract last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
date?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: November 3,
1924.	Then there is a contract for wharf reconstruction entered into on November 13,
1925.	There was a construction contract under date of August 27, 19231.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Of course the
minister knows we are asking him for contracts given under the emergency vote of last year, not for past history.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was no
emergency vote. A contract was let on April 4, 1923 to Messrs. Dussault and Company of Quebec for dredging. That contract was continued until that fall when the contract was cancelled and a new one entered into with the St. John Dry Dock Company.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Another contract with the St. John Dry Dock Company?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No; they took
over the other contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
idea of the vote of $140,000 because apparently we have no contract under it at all.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Apparently I have not made myself plain. We entered into this contract with the St. John Dry Dock Company on the surrender of the other contract in the fall of 1923 and they worked in 1924 and 1925. Then the contract for the pier was on August 1, 1923. In the winter of 1924 or the following spring an ice shove disturbed a portion of the work undertaken and we asked last year for a further sum. Probably that is the explanation why it came up in the supplementaries.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Let me see if
I have this tale of anguish aright. I will not give the contracts in the order in which my hon. friend gives them; I will give them in the order of date. The first contract my hon. friend mentioned is that of April 4, 1923. The second is dated August 27, 1923. The third contract he gives is in the autumn of 1923 which is really a substitution for the contract of April 4, 1923. This is with the St. John Dry Dock Company. The next he gives is November 3, 1924 and the next November 13. 1925. There was one that seemed to be loose, running around unconnected, dated August 1, 1923.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That was on AugusJ 27,	1923. A contract was awarded to
Boulanger and Boulanger of Montmagny.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that the contract of August 1?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am giving the
date of the order in council authorising the contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that in the
list already given?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then we have
the ice storm which interferes with all these numerous activities and contractors. That ice storm comes in the winter of 1924, does it not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The winter of 1924-25.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then my hon.
friend brings down a vote of $140,000 in the supplementary estimates of last year. Is that right?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.
Supply-Public Works


Henry Lumley Drayton: The contract of November 13, 1925 would be under that vote. Were any other contracts entered into under that vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Probably this will give some light to my hon. friend. We had $100,000 from the Hammermill people. That was in the hands of the Finance department, but the Auditor General insisted, and properly so, that parliament should vote the money required for this work, and we asked for $140,-0G0 last year, making available their money which had been paid.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that right, or is the vote right? As it reads, the vote is to supplement a contribution of $100,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Sir HENRY DR  AYTON@: That is wrong, is it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We had to vote
the contribution as well as what we spent ourselves. I gave the amount the department spent last year. The total expenditure is to be $160,000 odd.


Henry Lumley Drayton: $165,000?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I believe so.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is the work
finished yet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No; it is hoped to finish it this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And we have
already spent $165,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No; that is the
estimated cost.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder whether the minister's recollection is good enough to enable him to tell us whether in the first instance we were not told that the whole thing would be covered by $100,000?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh, no.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
says definitely that is not so.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Absolutely.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then he would contradict Hansard?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, I would not
contradict Hansard; I could not very well. But I know that when the matter was discussed in 1923 or 1924 the House was fully advised that the Hammermill people were going to make a contribution of $100,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is not the question. Is the minister's memory sufficiently good to enable him to tell us whether or not it was represented to the House in the first place that the whole of the cost would be $100,000 at most?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Anyway, how
is my hon. friend getting on with the governmental policy of shipping all of our raw resources out as quickly and as cheaply as possible? Will this American firm that came from Erie, Pennsylvania, be helped to export our raw materials, which they have been able to collect, in the chepaest way possible and over the wharf we built? When will they be able to complete that programme?


Sir EUGENE FISET:: My hon. friend
knows that Price Brothers are operating there now, cutting 15,000,000 feet of lumber a year and shipping it directly from the port. It would be only fair for him to make that statement.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend is labouring under a strange delusion if he thinks that there is any analogy between an American manufacturer operating in Canada and one operating in the United States. He seems to think it is immaterial whether the workmen employed in manufacturing our own raw material are engaged in the United States or in Canada. The mills of Price Brothers are here and they manufacture here, but I understand that the Hammermill plant is in the United States. I was asking the minister a simple question. I want to know what progress the government has made in its policy of making easy the demolition of our natural resources and the shipment of them to facilitate the work of American manufacturers?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. gentleman has not put the matter fairly. Matane is one of the harbours on the north shore-


An hon. MEMBER:: The south shore.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The south shore.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If the minister's story is no more correct than his geography-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no mistake about the story. Price Brothers have been carrying on business for years and they were anxious for the purposes of development to have this work done. It is true that we were requested to provide the facilities but we considered it only fair that the people

Supply-Public Works
who were so largely interested should do something in the way of co-operation. This is the first time the Public Works department has got $100,000 from any firm to build any structure.


Arthur Meighen: I do not know about
that, but it is the first time certainly that the government has ever put up $165,000 to help an American firm take business from our own railway and ship our own raw material out of the country to be manufactured in the United States. This enterprise takes all the belts, cups, records and everything else as a precedent. It is a political wharf from the beginning, but it is one of the most insane political ventures I know of. The American firm came over to get our pulpwood, desiring to have it manufactured in Erie. Of course they did not want to pay freight so they persuaded the government to dig into the treasury and build a wharf to enable them to ship the material by water, thus avoiding freight charges. And they are enabled to get our raw material out all the faster and cheaper as a result of accommodation afforded them by the government, out of the money of the Canadian people. Of course there were other objects that were served incidentally. I understand that the son of the late member for the distridt was made inspector. I do not know wh'at the government is doing now for the late member himself, I have not heard. Has he received a job on the wharf since he lost the nomination or the election? He lost something, I do not know what it was, but I should not be surprised if the wharf lost him the nomination. Anyway, has the government taken care of him, or will it put him on the Indian service like Mr. Sexsmith? What is to be done about Pelletier?


Samuel William Jacobs: He is not provided for in the Public Works estimate.


Mr. DIONNE:: As the representative for Matane I know this wharf very well, and I can assure the committee that it serves not only the Hammermill Company and Price Brothers but various schooners that ply between Matane and Quebec and Gaspe. It also accommodates the people on the north shore; the Ontario Pulp and Paper Company and other concerns operating timber limits make use of it, and it provides a shelter for vessels coming from Quebec or going up from Gaspe in stormy weather. Most of the money has been spent and this vote is necessary to complete the work. It is one of the most important public works which the department has carried out in my constituency, and I have no doubt that the public will approve of the expenditure.


Arthur Meighen: I congratulate the hon. member (Mr. Dionne) on what, so far as I can recall, is his maiden speech in the House. Certainly it was couched in splendid English.
I am sorry, however, that the hon. gentleman could not exhibit his powers in a nobler cause. It is true that any wharf, wherever it may be built, will serve purposes subsidiary to the main object for which it was built. I do not doubt some boats sail across the river but, as everybody knows, they could not be in any real sense commercial boats. These boats make use of the wharf, and I suppose boats could be found to make use of any wharf in the world. And if a boat were caught in a storm it would naturally pull in to the wharf. But that would be true no matter where you built a wharf. I suppose also this wharf serves as a shelter and shade for the fishes in the district. All these things can be said of this particular wharf. But the great central fact remains that it was built to help the Hammermill Paper Company take our raw material out of Canada to their mill in Erie. That was the purpose for which it was built, as everyone knows, and because on the completion of it other people made use of it is no justification for spending such a large sum of money on a structure the main purpose of which is injurious to the country and even to the district from which the hon. member comes. The main purpose served ,by that wharf is harmful to the district, even though certain people for whom the wharf was not originally intended are accommodated. If we are bound to have our pulpwood shipped out of the country, if we are bound to furnish material for American workmen, for goodness' sake let the people who want to profit thereby provide their own facilities. After they do put them up there will be shelter all right for all sorts of men and animals in that district; it will serve the purpose just as well. But there is no reason why we ought to put up money to help get our pulpwood out and reduce the revenues of the National Railways. I have not got an answer yet to what was done about young Pelletier. Is he still on the job?


Georges-Léonidas Dionne: He has got no job.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My right hon.
friend is hardly fair. He would lead the House to believe that the Hammermill com-

Supply-Public Works

pany alone will receive the benefit of this construction. That is not so. There are some 3,500 inhabitants at Matane who will participate. There has been a harbour there for years.


Arthur Meighen: I know.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This vote is to
provide proper facilities.


Arthur Meighen: Where is it built in relation to the Hammermill company? Right at the company's plant?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is not for the Hammermill company alone. Price Brothers manufacture fifteen million feet of lumber there. Outside of the two large concerns there are five or six lumber mills with a total output of 10,000,000 feet. That is an industry in itself. These smaller mills may not count in the mind of my right hon. friend, but they are there and they require better facilities. The Hammermill company have put up $100,000 and we have put up $165,000. The whole community will have better facilities. The Hammermill company are operating as other people are in this country who own their own lands. If leasehold they could not export, but they have bought these lands, and therefore have the right to export. There is undoubtedly necessity for this development, and personally I think we have made a pretty good arrangement in getting $100,000 from the Hammermill company for the benefits they will receive.


Arthur Meighen: The minister has dodged the question as to whether this wharf is not right beside the Hammermill company's plant.


Samuel William Jacobs: Assuming it is, and the
public are using it, what difference does it make, particularly when the Hammermill company are putting up $100,000?


Arthur Meighen: The use the public will
make of it is trifling. The public got on all right before.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This work is not tributary to the Hammermill company any more than it is to Price Brothers; as a matter of fact it is nearer Price Brothers' plant.


Arthur Meighen: I had a deputation come to me about it. They told me the work is right beside the Hammermill plant.	The
harbour was allowed to go to pieces. I suppose it was put in shape before the election?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I explained
to the House, an ice shove disturbed the works, which I believe have been repaired.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When is the work going to be finished?	.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend's expectation is that export can go on this year?


Robert Rogers: The minister has not yet made it clear to me. He says the cost of the work is $165,000 and that we spent $84,000 last year. If that is the case, the $55,000 now requested will not pay the bill.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I advised the
House that the total estimated expenditure was $265,000-


Henry Lumley Drayton: Oh no. $165,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: -of which the
Hammermill company will pay $100,OOO. It is necessary for us to vote the $265,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Where are we
voting the $265,000?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We vote it from year to .year. This item has been before the House for the last three years.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then all I can say is my hon. friend is getting light as he goes along.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am trying to
give light.


Henry Lumley Drayton: 
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman,
there was no misunderstanding because I read the statement which I have before me. Perhaps my hon. friend did not hear me correctly. The estimated total cost is $265,000. There is a contribution from the Hammermill company of $100,000, and the estimated cost to the department is $165,000. That is the information I conveyed.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am very glad to hear that. I really do my best to follow what my hon. friend says, but he has an uncomfortable way of admiring his toes when he is talking, and I confess I did not get all he said.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am sorry.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
Nicolet-repairs to jetty, $17,400.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is for repairs. The work is under contract to Messrs. Page <fe Page.


Arthur Meighen: What is the total cost?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The amount of
the contract is $15,750. We had tenders from four competing firms, the lowest was that of Page & Page, $15,750, and the highest $19,016.


Robert Rogers: There was a vote of $13,300 last year. You did not go on with it, did you?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, it is a revote. Only $412.64 was spent last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in council was passed January 21, 1926.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the contract advertised?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: November or December-it would be late.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I doubt that very much. Does my hon. friend say he issued any advertisements after the election until that time? The country understood the government was not functioning. The government pretended it was not functioning.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am advised that tenders were due October 21 last. No contract was let until January.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That sounds very much more reasonable. I was quite sure those advertisements were issued before the election; we know it now.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Norton Creek-dredging, $5,000.
Arthur Meighen: What is the idea of dredging a creek?


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: To make it
deeper.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to continue certain excavations that were started in 1912 and 1913. They were suspended during the war. About 17,000 cubic yards will be removed.


Arthur Meighen: Where is it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In the district of Chateauguay-Huntingdon.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is it by contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, day labour.


Arthur Meighen: Does the member for the riding prefer the day labour method?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not so sure.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I would point out to my hon. friend that this is a case where there ought to be a contract, the amount being $5,000. Or was it considered more convenient before the election to have a lot of people employed by day labour? Would that be it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This construction was undertaken away back in 1912-13. I find that at that time the work done by day labour amounted to $4,470. In 1913-14, 4,200 cubic yards were excavated at a cost of $4,491.78, done by day labour. In 1914-15, 5,972 cubic yards were excavated at a cost of $4,9S7.42, the total expenditure being $13,949.49.
It was considered advisable at that time that the work should be done by day labour, and the same plan is followed this year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: You take it by
vote, so much a year. I do not observe that we got up to $5,000 any time during that period. Am I right?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the estimates for all the period, but we find that in the year 1914 it was $4,987.42, pretty near the mark. The chances are that we will not spend the full $5,000 this year, but that is the amount asked.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was asking as to what we did with it last year. How much dredging was done last year, and how many men were employed last September and October?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend is wrong about that.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend delights in ancient history to-day, telling us what happened in 1912-13, but he fails to give details of what happened in the year 1925, under his administration. What did he do in September and October last year under this vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think the best justification for this expenditure in the minds of my hon. friends would be that they undertook the work when they were in office. I think that would satisfy them, and that is * why I referred to it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Oh no.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: And the fact that it was done by day labour would indicate that the government were following the practice which the engineers thought was good practice. There was no expenditure last year.
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Henry Lumley Drayton: Nothing was
done last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Are you sure about that?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What an awful oversight. How did that happen? I do not think you have been properly advised? Are you sure you did not get a lot of good work in under the general vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, we did not.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Do you think that because we dredged one year we must always go on dredging? How is it necessary that dredging done one year must be done the next year? My hon. friend goes back to 1912-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The work was not completed.


Samuel William Jacobs: Perhaps silting takes place all the time.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this a silting stream ?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Samuel William Jacobs: You know that in every
doubtful county there is dredging during an election.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend is right.


Samuel William Jacobs: You ought to know, as well as the hon. member for South Winnipeg (Mr. Rogers).


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Notre Dame de Pierreville-wharf, $13,500.
Robert Rogers: This is a revote. It was in the estimates last year and nothing was done. Can the minister give us any explanation why nothing was done last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is one of those items that we have from year'to year. Plans were prepared and1 tenders were called for, but the season had passed and it went over . till the next year, and we are revotiing the money.


Robert Rogers: What are the details?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: An order in
council was passed on the 21st October 1925, accepting the tender of J. J. Collins of Trois Rivieres. There were seven tenders and the figures vary from $9,385 to $18,080.53.


Henry Lumley Drayton: This was also
in the supplementaries of last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It would be.


Robert Rogers: You are asking for $500
more this year than last year. Have you an estimate of the cost of the work down as fine as that?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is the
estimated cost, *$13,500.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Here is another illustration of how things can be done. This item stands out as a startling corroboration of the statement of the hon. member for Cartier. He shows that he is not only frank but veracious-not voracious but veracious. We have a beautiful illustration of what happened in connection with the matter last year. We have this vote brought down in the supplementaries, and this matter is arranged carefully, properly and regularly. They are pretty clever in the Public Works department, and in the ordinary course it is dangled before the electors that this project is going on, and the contract let, and when the campaign is roaring the fiercest, and the war with Turkey is imminent, we see in all the local papers the statement that this work is to be given out and labourers will be employed. We have the contract let on the 21st of October, and then of course it takes a little time before anything can be done. All the good political work, if my hon. friend will look at it, is accomplished, and we have the vote again this year.


Samuel William Jacobs: Do you suggest that during election no work could be done at all? You know the maxim that the King's government must go on.


Henry Lumley Drayton: You miss the
point: You say the work must go on, but the King's government was at a standstill for some period. It has been resuscitated I admit, but we will not go into the operation of resuscitation. There was, however, a time of suspended animation. You will notice that while everything was done to favourably impress the voters as to what was going to be done, not one single thing was done. Contracts were advertised and let but nothing else was done.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Paspetoiao-wharf repairs, $5,500.
Robert Rogers: This is a new item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, wharf repairs. This is to rebuild the superstructure of the landing wharf, estimated cost $5,500.

Supply-Public Works


Robert Rogers: Has any work been done? Mr. KING (Kootenay): No.


Robert Rogers: The minister did not give us the necessity for it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is an important village in the county of Bonaventure, with a population of 5,000, employed largely in farming and fishing. The tonnage using this wharf last year was 4,643 tons of sea going vessels and 21,247 of coastwise and inland vessels.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Petite Riviere Romaine-to recoup the Paint River Oxide Company for repairing public wharf, $7;525.08.
Robert Rogers: Would the minister explain this item?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is required to reimburse the Paint River Oxide Company who performed urgent repairs to a public wharf under the instructions and supervision of this department. The vouchers and the work have been duly certified by the district engineer.


Arthur Meighen: What riding is this in?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was found that there had been settlement of the ballast and that the wharf was not usable. The company that was using the wharf suggested that they do the repairing.


Robert James Manion: This has nothing to do with the peroxide people we hear so much about.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, this is a red mixture. It was necessary to make these repairs in order that the company could carry on their work. The work was done under our direction, and this is to recoup them.
Mr. STEWART (Leeds) When was this work done?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In the latter part of the summer, about August.


Mr. STEWART (Leeds):: When was it completed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the date here, but I imagine within a few weeks.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if the minister has an order in council dealing with this matter? Is this a new precedent altogether? Personally, I cannot ever recollect this course of action having been followed before. Is this making history, and if it is making history, in what riding were we making history?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Thi3 is in the riding of Charlevoix-Saguenay.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is the chief whip's riding.


Mr. CASGRAIN:: I never asked for this work, and I know nothing about it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How impossible!
I wonder how on earth it was that the chief whip had nothing to do with this. If this has taken place under the chief whip's nose without his knowing anything about it, I think we ought to strike the item out. I am suife the chief whip is against it.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Anything that has been done in this matter, was done before I came to be the member for the district. I have not had an opportunity even to see the place yet. I have never seen this wharf at all.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Apparently the chief whip can plead a successful alibi, and we will accept it. Who was the sitting member that got this new history made?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Representations were made to us that the wharf had settled, and that they could not make shipments over it. It was essential that the work should be done, and the company did the work, and we are now proposing to recoup them. The work was done under our supervision. There is nothing very unusual about it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not think my hon. friend is doing himself justice when he says there is nothing unusual in this. We have hundreds of items in these estimates, Mr. Chairman, but you will search in vain to find another one like this, and if you go through the estimates of last year you will not find another one like it. Will my hon. friend tell me, on sober reflection, that this is being done in the usual way? If he will, I am content to take his answer, but I do not think he had better.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I did not say it
was usual. This work was unexpected.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend said that this was the usual course.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I said that there was nothing very unusual about it.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It is only partly unusual ?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was a work of
necessity.
465S
Supply-Public Works


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will my hon.
friend tell me now who the happy member is that gets this new departure?


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: As I said before, I have not asked for this, and I do not know anything about it. It is in what was known as the riding of Chicoutimi-Saguenay and the sitting member for that riding was Doctor Savard. The riding is now Charlevoix-Saguenay.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I would not
seek to charge my hon. friend with any complicity in this at all. I am very glad to know that he is clear this time. Is this our property or the property of the company?


John Warwick King: It is our property.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
date of this order in council which permitted this company to make repairs upon our property, and under what terms were they allowed to do that work? Will my hon. friend read the order in council? It would lot 'be long.
( Mr. KING (Kootenay): I understand that there is no order in council regarding these repairs. It was reported to us that in order that they could make their shipments, repairs to the wharf were necessary, and' the company undertook to make the repairs and take their chance of having parliament pass an appropriation.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Now we are
getting at the real situation. There was no order in council. There is no authority for this work. The simple position is that a company that wanted this work done for the purpose of looking after its business spends this money, and my hon. friend now proposes to recoup them. It is a very nice way, Mr. Chairman, for the department to spend money without any permission of parliament. It is a very serious back-door method of carrying on the country's business. If that were done generally, we could make up all our estimates ex post facto, and all we would need to do then would be to vote the money to cover expenditures on works that the ministry had permitted their friends to do, work done by favoured companies of the ministry, who were allowed to make improvements or repairs to public property, and then come around afterwards, without the slightest prior justification from this House authorizing the expenditure, and expect this House to repay them. This is done so irregularly, Mr. Chairman, that there is not even an order in council. I wonder if there is any correspon-
[Air. J. H. King.]
dence in connection with this matter? The very least we can have is the production of all the correspondence which has anything whatever to do with this very extraordinary item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is nothing very extraordinary about it. I have tried to give a review of the facts very simply and very plainly. Owing to the fact that the ballast had considerably settled and that the earth surface had been partly washed by the waves, the wharf had become impassable, and in order to render it useful it was necessary to add some ballast stone, about 1,000 cubic yards, and to replace the earth surface by a wooden flooring.
Regarding the commercial necessity for this work, it is reported to me that the farmers and lumbermen of the locality were waiting for these repairs to the wharf to be effected to load and ship about 5,000 cords of pulp-wood, and the Paint River Oxide Company were ready to ship, as soon as the wharf was made passable, from 5,000 to 6,000 tons of their ore in crude state. There was no appropriation for this work, and as the amount was too large to charge against the general appropriation the engineering department recommended that the Paint River Oxide Company be requested to make repairs under the supervision of the district engineer, provided the}^ were willing to wait until a vote to recoup them was passed by parliament. The company have taken that chance, but if parliament does not see fit to recoup them for the expenditure which they properly made in order that they might carry on their business on property owned by the government, there is no objection to cutting the item out; but to say that there have been any backdoor methods whatever in bringing this vote before parliament is unfair. The item is here for discussion. As I have already stated it was too large a sum to take from our general vote; we do not spend large sums from that vote. Here was a company proposing to get their products to the market. They were informed that we had no item in our estimates for the facilities required. It was only natural for the company then to say: It is your property and we will do the work under your supervision if you will pass a vote in parliament to recoup us for the expenditure. That is all there is in the transaction.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has my hon.
friend anything showing the undertaking of the government to do this? How did the government come to undertake it?

Supply-Public Works
.Mr. KING (Kootenay):	On the advice of
the chief engineer.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
form of the undertaking in connection with this expenditure?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The department
agreed with the company that if they would carry out the work under our supervision and control we would submit a vote to parliament in the belief that parliament would vote the money.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has my hon.
friend the agreement with him?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Perhaps we can get the agreement.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no formal agreement.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Was there correspondence in which the matter is set out and which will show us what the situation is?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I imagine there
would be correspondence but I have not got it here.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think we
should have that correspondence before we establish this new precedent.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was done on
the chief engineer's recommendation.


Henry Lumley Drayton: As there is no
formal agreement we cannot assign a date to the undertaking?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When did the
work commence?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The date of the
engineer's report is August, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will my hon.
friend produce the correspondence?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, I will bring
it down.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then we will
leave this item over.


Arthur Meighen: When was the work
finished?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I really do not
know. I imagine it was within a few weeks.


Robert James Manion: May I ask the minister
how long previous to that there had been any expenditure of money on this wharf?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government took this wharf over in November, 1924.


Robert James Manion: Up to that time whose wharf was it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It belonged to the paint company at that time.


Robert Rogers: The same company?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the date of the transfer by the company?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in
council was passed on November 17th, 1924.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend will withdraw the item surely?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Robert James Manion: Does anybody else use
that wharf besides this paint company?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Robert James Manion: Who?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is used by the inhabitants there.


Robert James Manion: Who are the inhabitants?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I read that a moment ago.


Arthur Meighen: There cannot be very many; the member never saw them.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: When these repairs are effected farmers and others will draw about 5,000 cords of pulpwood to this point. The Paint River Oxide Company will also ship from five to six thousand tons of ore when the wharf is completed.


Robert James Manion: What kind of agreement did the government make in taking over this wharf in 1924?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We took over the wharf in November, purchasing it from the company.


Robert James Manion: For how much?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: For $18,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Good Lord!


Robert James Manion: When was that estimate passed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was passed in 1924.


Robert James Manion: You say you took it over in November, 1924. In that case it may have been passed in 1925?
*1660
Supply-Public Works


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am not sure. It would be in 1925, I imagine.


Robert Rogers: When was the payment of $18,000 made?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I should think it appeared in the estimates of 1925 but I do not have them here. The order authorizing the purchase was passed in November, 1924.


Robert James Manion: Has the minister the
history of this wharf, can he say when it was built by this company?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That information would be in the department. I have not got it here. I would be very glad to bring down all the papers.
Sir	HENRY	DRAYTON:	I	have	the
estimates for 1925 and I do not see the item there.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I will be glad to look the matter up and furnish the desired information. In the meantime we will let the item stand.
Sir	HENRY	DRAYTON:	I	think	the
minister will agree that the committee should get full particulars of this item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Let it stand.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend will really be wiser if he drops it now, I think.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: No, no.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When I hear
"no, no" I have no doubt that there are some gentlemen behind the minister that are particularly interested in this. I cannot understand anyone who is not particularly interested being desirous of putting through a vote of this character.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I will be glad to have the item stand until I get full information. I think the House will be fully informed with respect to this item.
Item stands.
Pointe au Pic (Murray Bay)-wharf repairs, $9,000.


Arthur Meighen: What county is this in?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Charlevoix-
Saguenay.


Robert Rogers: This is for a wharf down
in Murray Bay?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. It is to
repair the damage done to the west side of the wharf by storm in 1924. This is an important port in Murray Bay.


Robert Rogers: You had $15,000 in the
estimates last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. We spent


Robert Rogers: When was that spent?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was spent last year, in 1925-26.


Mr. ARMSTRONG (Lambton):: Will the $9,000 complete the work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. There is a re-vote of $1,000.


Robert Rogers: What was the original estimate of the cost of this work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The structure is
a large one and repairs have been made to it from year to year; it is one of the largest wharves on the St. Lawrence. The total expenditure on it up to March, 1925, was $139,000.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: This expenditure is
amply justified. This is one of the largest ports below Quebec. I think the leader of the opposition has been there and has seen the place. I remember one occasion when he happened to be there and observed the activities which were going on. There will be a good return for every dollar spent. The government receives wharfage dues, and there is a considerable export of pulpwood and other products. The vessels of the Canada Steamship line call at the port daily.


Arthur Meighen: I was not disputing the
necessity of keeping up the wharf there. I just marvelled though that the government would buy another wharf for $18,000 in the hon. member's county, especially one that is no good, and then pay the people from whom they bought it seven thousand more to put it in shape for their own use.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I do not know anything about it.


Arthur Meighen: That is what I marvel
at. I hope the hon. member has not neglected the rest of his riding in the same way.


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: I am not neglecting my riding. I am talking about the part with which I am more familiar. I do not happen to know this part as well.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We accept my
hon. friend's alibi in connection with that, but he scented the trouble at once and he was taking to cover.

Supply-Public Works


Joseph Philippe Baby Casgrain: Hon. members should
not put into my mouth things I did not say. I am not taking to cover, but I do not want to be held responsible before the House and the country for recommending something I do not know anything about.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Point Basse-wharf improvements, $2,500.
Robert Rogers: This is a new item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount is
required to drive protection pile work along the inside face of the wharf for a length of 150 feet. The estimated cost is $2,500.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Rimouski-wharf repairs, $5,100.
Arthur Meighen: Would this not be a
good opportunity for the hon. member for the riding (Sir Eugene Fiset) to make a speech?


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Rivitre dii Loup (en taut)-dredging, $54,000.
Robert Rogers: This is a new item and a large expenditure. Will the minister explain it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount is
required to complete the dredging of a channel in Riviere du Loup commenced in 1925-26 under contract with the National Dock and Dredging Corporation from deep water in lake St. Peter to the government wharf at Louiseville or Riviere du Loup en haut. It is proposed to remove 76,484 cubic yards at 35 cents per yard.


Robert Rogers: When was the contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: An order in
council was passed last year in August and this is to complete the work. A new contract is being let for this work.


Robert Rogers: Was any money spent last year and if so, how much?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am sorry I have not the information of the amount of work done last year.


Robert Rogers: Did the minister have a
vote for similar work last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Robert Rogers: How much was the vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I understand
from my deputy that the money that was expended was from the general vote last year.


Robert Rogers: What general vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The dredging vote for Ontario and Quebec.


Arthur Meighen: A general vote was used to start a work which now requires a special vote of $54,000? The order in council I understand was passed in the month of August of last year. Was this order in. council, under which the government without any authority from parliament commenced at that point work which is committing the country to an expenditure for which we have an item of $54,000, passed about the same date as that of the Richmond Hill speech?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My right hon. friend is entirely mistaken. It is just as well to forget the election of last year. This had nothing to do with it. This is an important point on the St. Lawrence river and it is very necessary that this work should be done. It is an important lumbering point. The exports consist of about [DOT] 15,000,000 feet B.M. of lumber, 9,000 cords of pulpwood,
8,000	cords of slab and 3,000,000 feet of laths. The total tonnage of general merchandise of all kinds exported is about 20,000 tons, consisting of hay, cheese, butter, honey, raw hides, meat, cattle, maple sugar, manufactured products, etc. The St. Lawrence Paper Mills are operating at that point. As regards taking money from the general vote for this work, there is nothing unusual in that.


Robert Rogers: Just a moment ago the minister told us that he had an order in council covering the work of last year. Will he give us the date?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in
council of last year was passed on the 20th August, 1925, granting authority to accept the tender of the National Dock and Dredging Company of Quebec. They did not finish their contract. I have not the amount of work they did. They were in there until November.


Robert James Manion: What date was the contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in
council was passed in August.


Robert James Manion: That was taking up the contract.
Mr. -KING (Kootenay):	That was the
order in council authorizing the contract. I have not the date of the contract before me.
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Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the amount of the contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: 


Arthur Meighen: And nothing voted?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was the
general vote.


Robert Rogers: What were the reasons
given in the order in council for the work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The necessary
dredging for navigation purposes.


Robert Rogers: Would the minister be
good enough to read the order in council?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not have it with me.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We shall have to ask for the order in council to be brought down.	.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no objection.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am not speaking about the merits of the work because I do not know anything about it; but this is another case where we have an extraordinary departure from ordinary principles and it is absolutely necessary to have the order in council produced. This is a departure from ordinary principles because the memory of this committee is not so short as not to recollect the statement of the minister in connection with a paint company; it was to be left to look after repairs amounting to $7,000 in connection with a public wharf because the item was too big. At the same time we have the statement made that the same vote, the genera! vote, is made use of for the purpose of supporting a liability of $26,000. This is new. The minister shakes his head. There is no question about the facts. Unless my hon.- friend is entirely mistaken in what he has told the committee, the usual rule which is well known is that a new contract cannot and ought not to be entered into until this House has first supplied funds for the purpose of carrying out that contract. One of the first things the Auditor General has to see is the certificate of the vote and all that sort of thing. All that is forgotten for some reason which perhaps we shall be able to get from the order in council. In connection with this contract it was necessary to disregard all the usual safeguards with which the public treasury is surrounded. The minister ought to bring down not only the order in council 
but all other papers having regard to this particular transaction, correspondence and so on, particulars as to when the work started, how much was paid last year and the like.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no objection at all to bringing down the order in council and other information. This is a natural transaction in the department. Riviere du Loup is an important point. In order that navigation might be proceeded with at that point the department entered into a contract for certain dredging. It is hoped to complete the work this year and we are asking parliament for a certain sum.


Robert James Manion: I know something about the locality having visited it. Where is the dredging being done? The wharf at Riviere du Loup is a very fine one extending away out into the St. Lawrence. Is the dredging at the wharf or up the river?


Mr. GERVAIS:: Last year a contract was
let for the dredging of about 50,000 cubic yards but the contractor did not complete the work. On October 15, I believe, the Tourville Lumber Company was sold to the St. Lawrence Lumber Company and I ascertained in an interview with one of the proprietors of the Tourville concern that the St. Lawrence company had asked for more dredging to be done because they intended operating on a larger scale. I suppose the contract has been increased owing to the demand of the company for greater accommodation. There is regular steamship communication between Montreal, Berthier and Louiseville twice a week and all the traffic, which is considerable, is carried by water. I have received correspondence in connection with the subject and I can assure the committee that the dredging is necessary.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The committee
will be grateful for the information the hon. member has volunteered. I observe his activity in the matter and he is no doubt gratified at the success of his efforts. I have no doubt he will produce this evening the correspondence to which he has referred.


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: The company asked for
further dredging in view of the fact that they intended operating on a larger scale the business taken over from the Tourville Lumber Company, and1 the facts are all set out in the correspondence that passed between the business men interested in the matter, the St. Lawrence and the Tourville Companies, and myself. I know nothing about the order

Supply-Public Works
in council, but I will allow the hon. gentleman to look into this private correspondence if he cares to do so. The oiption was accepted on October 15 last and the dredging was begun during the month of November.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not think
the hon. gentleman is a bit ashamed of the correspondence, but I can see that some of his friends are afraid of it They do not want it produced; they regard it as something in the nature of gunpowder.


Some hon. MEMBER:: Oh, oh.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Hon. gentlemen roar at the suggestion that the correspondence be produced, but surely there is nothing private about public business, and any representations made to the minister should be open to parliament. The house has a right to know on what grounds the member for the district was able to arrange this matter. If the hon. member (Mr. Ger-vais) does not want to produce the correspondence dealing with the subject-it is not private correspondence-that is a matter for himself, and I shall be content to accept his refusal. However, I think he has a better appreciation of his position and of the duty he owes the public than have some of his friends.


William Duff: Shall the item carry?


Henry Lumley Drayton: No, the item is not carried.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Carried.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Notwithstanding insistent shouts of "carried" from hon. gentlemen from Quebec, the item is not going through at present. We can discuss it all over again if hon. gentlemen are so ignorant of the proper, legal, honest way of carrying on the business of the country as to rush through an item of this kind before the committee has been given adequate information regarding it. It seems to me the course of action in this case has been extraordinary. I need hardly observe that it is one of the principles of our form of government that no public funds shall be spent, nor shall any credit be extended, except by a vote of the House. I am sure hon. gentlemen, bearing that in mind, will refrain, from shouts of "carried" when they discover that a contract for $26,000 was let without the attention of parliament being called to the matter. This is something that calls for an explanation. Surely hon. gentlemen opposite will demand that explanation. Or are they so convinced
that the whole thing has been improperly carried out that it will not stand ventilation? If that is their fear they will again call "carried", but if they think that parliament has a right to get at the facts they will demand that an explanation be given.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I take exception
to that statement. It is all right for my hon. friend to fill Hansard with that kind of material, but nothing has been done in this matter contrary to the usual practice that has always obtained in the department.


Henry Lumley Drayton: You are wrong.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We vote certain sums of money every year for dredging in the Maritime provinces, in Quebec, in Ontario and elsewhere and contracts are let for certain work. These contracts are advertised in the pulblic press and tenders are received; the matter then goes before council and the contract is awarded. Why make any mystery out of it?


Robert James Manion: Is the contract let before
parliament passes upon it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No; we vote so
much money for dredging in the different provinces and the work is carried on in this way.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The minister
knows that usually the dredging is done by the government's own fleet.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Some of it; not all.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Oh no, not all. But the minister also knows that all contracts of over $5,000 are submitted to parliament; that is, if the proper and the usual procedure is followed. My hon. friend shakes his head. If my hon. friend would only be consistent I at least would be able to understand him a great deal better. Take the example we have had already this afternoon We have the statement made by the hon. minister that the general vote which the department has to look after small matters would not justify the expenditure on the paint company's wharf of $7,000, and yet at the same time we have the same minister saying it is perfectly proper and usual to take the general vote to support a contract of $26,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend
is trying to confuse two votes that are treated entirely different in practice, and he well knows it. The general dredging vote running into hundreds of thousands of dollars is used

Supply-Public Works

by the department to do dredging where necessary, and it must act within the vote and by order in council. There is no mystery aibout this; my hon. friend can have all the correspondence relating to it. It is not unusual, it is done from year to year, and the two items are not to be confused.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman,
the only reason I am challenging the minister is that his supporters want to carry this vote now.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am in no hurry about carrying it.
Sir HENRY'DRAYTON: Very well, let it stand.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend
referred to the construction of the paint company's wharf. We did not take the amount from the general vote, thinking it would be fairer and better to bring it before parliament and make the explanation here. That is why the item is in the estimates. So far as the dredging vote is concerned, if my hon. friend wants it to stand over it can. I am sure he will be satisfied when he sees the correspondence.


Robert James Manion: My recollection is, but I
am subject to correction, that in previous discussions of this sort it has been understood that the general vote is supposed to ibe for amounts up to $2,500, that is, for small repairs. I think the minister said that a year or two ago.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Robert James Manion: Then how high can the
minister go? Could he spend the whole general vote for Ontario and Quebec on one job without the authority of this parliament?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The practice has been to let contracts from time to time under that vote. It is true the vote is primarily for the maintenance of our own dredging fleet, but in addition to that contracts have for many years been let from that vote. The authority is by order in council, after calling for tenders in the regular and usual way.


Robert James Manion: Supposing in that way a
contract was let for $75,000 or $100,000, and the House subsequently turned it down, what would happen? Are such contracts let subject to approval by parliament?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The vote is
passed before the contract is let, and was in this case.


Robert James Manion: The general vote was?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes; and that is where it is paid from.


Robert Rogers: What was voted for dredging for Quebec and Ontario last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Last year we voted $652,000.


Robert Rogers: What is the amount this
year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: An estimate of


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: Mr. Chairman, the channel at Riviere du Loup leading to the main channel has not been dredged for several years and the silt brought down by the river has made the channel so shallow that navigation is impeded. I received letters from the officials of the Tourville Lumber Company, which has sold its interests to another company. I know none of the officials of this new company, nor have they asked me to intervene. Three years ago the proprietor of the steamboat plying between Montreal, Berthierville and Louiseville asked me to have this dredging done, as did those interested in the Soulanges steamboats. Last fall they repeated their request because during August and September the boat service could not be maintained owing to the shallowness of the channel, I think the dredging is quite necessary.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I would hasten
to assure the hon. member that I am quite certain of his good faith in this matter. I am not challenging at the moment the necessity for the work, as I said in the first instance, I am trying to find out why we have departed from the usual practice.


Robert Rogers: Is the minister prepared
to let the item stand until we get more information?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no objection.


Joseph-Charles-Théodore Gervais: Mr. Chairman, I shall
have to tell my electors that the dredging was blocked by the other side simply because of a legal distinction. I will tell them exactly what has happened.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman,
I would tell my hon. friend that despite his terrible threat we are only trying to see that the right thing is done by the people of the country generally; that is, that the public funds are properly conserved, irrespective of

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what may happen to anyone. I am sure that when my hon. friend considers what he has said he will temper the wind to the shorn lamb and not be unduly severe.
Item stands.
St. Antoine de Tilly-wharf reconstruction, $3,000.


Robert Rogers: Was the $20,000 voted last year all spent?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was an
expenditure last year of $16,019. This item is to complete the contract for the reconstruction of the headblock.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
St. Gedeon (Lac St. Jean)-wharf reconstruction, $13,500.
Robert Rogers: This seems to be a new
item. What is the necessity for this expenditure?


Mr. SYLVBSTRE:: I wish to say with
reference to this item, that a large dam was built on Isle Maligne, so that the level of the water could be kept high, in order that people would be able to navigate around the lake. Formerly during summer time the water was rather low, but now, on account of that huge dam that has been built, the water will be kept high,' ensuring navigation during the season. The Price Company has a large paper mill built at River Bend and they have to use two large tugs to bring their pulpwood from the Mistassini river down to River Bend, I think they built some kind of dry dock, especially for the repair of their tugs, and this wharf will be very convenient for them. It is absolutely necessary.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Ste. Petronille (I.O.)-wharf repairs and improvements, $12,200.
Robert Rogers: This seems rather a large
item at a point like that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to repair
the damage done in the fall of 1924 to the wharf expropriated in 1923-24.


Robert Rogers: What was the cost?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Justice Audette gave judgment awarding compensation of $29,604.56 for repairs and for replacing stone ballast which was washed away.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: What was the reason for expropriating this wharf?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The department
had no wharf at that point. The island is below Quebec. The district is not thickly 14011-2961
settled, and it was thought advisable by the department that we should have a wharf there. The property was purchased through expropriation proceedings, and these repairs are being made to put the wharf into condition to handle the traffic.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: Will this
complete the work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Sorel-harbour improvements, $20,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: This is a
familiar name, and we had a long discussion last year about it, as I recollect. We had a very big vote, I think $75,000, and an eloquent speech from the Minister of Marine and Fisheries in connection with it. My recollection is that that vote was going to finish it. We really thought, under all the circumstances, that that was a deserving point and well worth the expenditure, but I thought the idea was that $75,000 was going to finish it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We spent $73,-
312.05 last year, and this is to complete the work, $20,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this going
to be the really final expenditure?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As far as this
work is concerned, yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
work? My understanding certainly was, rightly or wrongly, that $75,000 was to complete something we had on hand. Is this for something new?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think my hon. friend is mistaken. The amount of money voted last year for specific purposes has been expended. Now it is proposed to build 311 feet more.


Henry Lumley Drayton: This is new
work.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the report of the engineer as to the necessity of the new work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: He reports tba+
the cost will be as follows:
(1) Reconstruction in concrete of remaining 311.4 feet of high level wharf along the
Richelieu river	$18,000
(2) Repairs to breakwater	 1,300
Inspection and contingencies	 700

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Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the necessity for the work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My memorandum states that the part to be rebuilt-*


Henry Lumley Drayton: This is rebuilding?


Mr KING (Kootenay):: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: 
Henry Lumley Drayton: I think this is the place for the local member to make a speech. I wonder if we cannot get a speech from him.


William Duff: He is not here.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I think he should be here in connection with this item. In his absence I am going to make a plea that this vote be carried. I know Tadoussac. I know the district of the chief whip of the Liberal party, and I hasten to do all I can to keep this vote out of danger. The district requires this accommodation, and it is going to get it. There are other things which it requires which it may not get as soon as it ought to. I am not going to dilate upon the complexion of the riding; I am not going to say that its fiscal policy should be given voice in this House, but I recollect there were difficulties in connection with the telephone communication and difficulties in getting across the river, and on behalf of the chief whip of the Liberal party, who now has more important business to look after, and acting for him, I desire to draw this matter to the attention of the minister. The establishment of communication with the -north side of the river is something which ought to be accomplished in order to put the people in touch with civilization in winter, and proper telephonic communication.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Tadoussac (Anse a l'Eau)-wharf repairs, J6,000.
Robert Rogers: This is a new item. I am afraid my colleague has spoken a little too soon. This is in the chief whip's constituency. I would like some explanation of the item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is for general repairs to the wharf structure, as follows: renewal of movable slip and hinges, $1,000; renewal of hoisting blocks, $600; renewal of flooring of wharf, $3,200; painting of sheds, $300; repairs to approach, $500; contingencies, $400.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Trois-Rivieres-repairs to coal dock, $4,950.
Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder why that comes in here, Mr. Chairman. We passed an act last year, or the year before, transferring these properties to the harbour commission. We understood that the harbour commission was going to run all these properties, and that the department would be out of it. I understand that the harbour commission is functioning at Three Rivers.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is a structure owned by the people of Canada. The work consists of repairing with concrete the inclined ice breaker situated along the upstream side of the wharf, and most urgent repairs to the wooden sheeting of the wharf. The engineer reports that the ice breaker is all rotten and decayed, and if not repaired a part of the structure may be carried away and the coal elevators put in danger. There is a considerable traffic on this coal wharf. In 1925, up to November, 27 steamers loaded with coal, pig iron, rails, angle bars, fish plates, and so forth, landed at this wharf with cargoes representing 145,543 tons. It is true that the harbour commission had a bill passed last year, but there was no money granted by that bill, and we have transferred none of our property to the harbour commission. The Marine department are in control of this wharf, and are charging fees for its use. This appropriation is required to maintain the wharf.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is an extraordinary thing, because we were told in this House during this session in connection with the Chicoutimi harbour commission that the Three Rivers harbour commision was functioning very well, with no trouble. My hon. friend now says that it is not functioning at all, that the Marine department are looking after the harbour, and that there is no money for the harbour commission to carry on with. Who is collecting the fees?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This wharf is administered by the Marine department. It is our property, not the property of the harbour commission. There has been no transfer of property, and we are maintaining a public wharf there. I do not think there has been any suggestion that we should turn this wharf over to the harbour commission. It is true that, the harbour commission is functioning and collecting revenue, but not from this structure.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What property has been transfered to the commission?

Supply-Public Works


William Lyon Mackenzie King: None to my
knowledge.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is the office of harbour commissioner of Three Rivers merely honorary? Have the commissioners no property to administer at all?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They have some property, I understand, and they are collecting certain revenues but they have nothing to do with this wharf.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Who transferred that property to them? I understood the minister to say just now that there had been no transfer of property.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think they have some property there, but I do not know of any transfers of property recently.


Henry Lumley Drayton: They could only get the property if it was transferred to them by this government; they could not get it in any other way. Why is it that this wharf has not been transferred to them? Is the act of last year to be looked upon merely as giving honorary titles to certain gentlemen in connection with the harbour of Three Rivers, or will this property be transferred to the commission? Is not this property part of the harbour of Three Rivers? If it is, why should not the commissioners get the revenue from it and look after its repairs?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is an important pier in the harbour of Three Rivers. The harbour commissioners at Three Rivers are in a different position from the commissioners at Montreal and Vancouver. Their position, I would say, is very much like that of the harbour commissioners at New Westminster, who receive no salary but do administer the port, collecting certain dues. I notice that in the calendar year 1924 the Three Rivers harbour commission collected revenue as follows:
Shed rentals	 $ 1,220 00
Harbour dues	
6,887	29Wharfages	
27,331	ISRentals of wharves	
3,870	00'Sundry receipts	
160	24Total	
$39,468 71
That was collected, I imagine, through the Marine department. It is not collected through the Public Works department.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is my hon.
friend sure that this was collected by the Marine department, and not by the harbour commissioners, because certainly if the Marine department collected $39,000 at Three Rivers, the commissioners are not functioning.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would have to
inquire of the Marine department whether they are collecting these rentals or allowing the commission to collect them.


Henry Lumley Drayton: If the department are collecting them, this is a perfectly proper item, but if the commissioners are collecting them, the minister will agree that it would not be a proper item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We maintain
various structures at New Westminster and other places. These local commissioners are acting without salary, and the harbour commission of Three Rivers has not come to parliament asking for a loan.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What were the rentals from this particular wharf last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the
individual items.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not want to delay the vote. Of course, it is irregular if these properties are being run by the harbour commission, but we are getting accustomed to irregularities, so let it go.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Valleyfield-dredging, $50,000.
Robert Rogers: I would like a complete
statement from the minister in regard to this item. I particularly would like to know how many orders in council were passed in regard to work carried on just previous to the election last year in this particular constituency. I see by the estimates that there was an item for this work last year of $32,000. The minister is now asking for $50,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was in hopes of getting a speech from the Minister of Finance on this item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to complete payments to the contractors, "Les Chantiers Manseau," for continuation of dredging a channel 100 feet wide to a depth of 14 feet. The order in council was passed on August 29, 1925, and this appropriation is required to complete the contract that was entered into at that time.


Robert Rogers: What was the estimate
made for the work last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Our appropriation last year was $32,000, and there was an expenditure of $31,993.


Robert Rogers: But that did not complete the contract.
46G8
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William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. That was
the appropriation we asked for last year, and the contract was let for that amount.


Robert Rogers: Can the minister explain
why the contract was let for $32,000, and why he is now asking for $50,000 to complete it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is a continuation of the work carried on last year, and new tenders are being called for.


Robert Rogers: We will have to call upon the Minister of Finance to give some explanation of this. It is a very serious thing.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: What is serious
about it?


Robert Rogers: It is quite serious to let
a contract for $32,000 and then find that you have to spend $50,000 more to complete it.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is nothing
serious about it at all. There is a certain amount of work to be done. We might vote $80,000 or $100,000, and spread the expenditure over two or three years, voting a certain amount each year. That is what has been done here, and the present vote is to continue fhe dredging at that point.


Robert Rogers: When did you say the
order in council was passed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In August, last
year.


James Alexander Robb: I do not represent the county of Beauharnois but I happen to live in Valley-field. I recall that some years ago I came to Ottawa along with the mayor of that town when my genial friend opposite was Minister of Public Works. We represented to him the needs of the haitoour, the necessity of constructing a retaining wall along the dam, and for dredging to allow coal vessels carrying cargoes for the Montreal Cotton Company to come in. I recall also that after the interview the delegation said they thought the late lamented Minister of Railways and the then Minister of Public Works were two of the ablest men in Canada because the deputation got what they wanted.


Robert Rogers: Hear, hear.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend admitted the
justice of this work at that time and placed an appropriation in the estimates for it. Part of the work was carried out. Then the war came on and everything was stopped. The Montreal Cotton Company have been pressing for the deepening of the channel so as to get their boats in. My hon. friend knows that ' 
with the lowering of the water in the lakes, vessels that were able to enter the harbour a few years ago are not now able to come in, and that the movement of ice blocks the channel. These are the reasons for the work. My hon. friend who sits beside me at the present moment (Mr. Raymond) represents the county.
At six o'clock the committee took recess.
After Recess
The committee resumed at eight o'clock.


William Duff: There are two items
left over from the Quebec item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would have
those items stand for the present.
Ontario harbours and rivers-Blind River dredging, $27,700.


Robert Rogers: How was the $47,000 voted last year disposed of?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: A contract was
entered into with Messrs. McLean and Sons for redredging a channel 9,260 feet long by 150 feet wide to a depth of 16 feet. The amount of $27,000. which includes $21,000 of a revote, is to complete the contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Was a new contract given?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Nothing new.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Burlington breakwater extension, $8,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to provide for a contract entered into with Messrs. Randolph MacDonald Company, Limited, to extend the breakwater constructed in 1914-15. The amount of the contract is $8,000. The order in council was passed in October, 1925. It is very necessary work.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Oh, yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Burlington channel piers-repairs and reconstruction, $36,000.
Robert Rogers: What is the explanation of this item?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to complete the reconstruction of the south pier. My hon. friend knows the entrance to the Hamilton harbour. It is reconstruction of those piers.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

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Byng Inlet-dredging, $11,900.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount is required to complete the contract entered into last year. Of this $9,800 is a revote. It is for drediging at Rabbit island narrows.


Robert Rogers: Will the $11,900 be sufficient to complete it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Did this not
come in the supplementaries too?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As my hon. friend knows, the only opportunity a member has of having his views considered is in the sup-plementaries. The main estimates are usually made up before the House meets. I believe this item came in the supplementaries last year.	.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
date of the contract-October, 1925?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: August 31, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was got in hand even earlier. When did the work start?-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not know
when the contractor started work.


Robert Rogers: Who was pressing for this work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Byng Inlet is an important coal point. The Canadian Pacific ship a great deal of coal in there for their supplies and it is distributed from there.


Arthur Meighen: Where is Byng Inlet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In the Parry Sound district. The hon. member for Parry Sound (Mr. Arthurs) would understand the necessity for the work.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Chute a Blondeau-wharf reconstruction, $1,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Where is Chute a Blondeau?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In Prescott
county.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I cannot find
this item in the regular estimates of last year. I am afraid my hon. friend has to say that it was in the supplementaries too.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It probably was.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the
date of the contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in
[DOT]council was passed on October 26.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Three days in
time-rather close.


Arthur Meighen: Will the minister explain how it is that whereas last year was a year of falling revenues and depression generally, and this year we are having a fine crop and the government claims that things are far better than they were then, the estimates of this department both in Quebec and in Ontario are half what they were a year ago. How does that come about?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The government is very desirous of economizing.


Arthur Meighen: Why did they not economize last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: So we did.


Arthur Meighen: I do not think so.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think we did.


Arthur Meighen: Your estimates were
twice what they are this year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Arthur Meighen: Yes; if the minister will compare the two he will find that last year they were almost double what they are this year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is about a million dollars less in the main estimates this year than we voted last year.


Arthur Meighen: I am referring to the
patronage estimates.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: These are the
regular estimates.


Arthur Meighen: Pshaw!


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They are all for repairs.


Arthur Meighen: The minister should
not try to make fun of us. Why, look at the estimates in Ontario: the votes distributed among the various constituencies are half this year what they were last year. That is the case in Quebec as well as in Ontario. Last year was a hard year, while this year, according to the government, everything is prosperous. Yet in that hard year the estimates were double what they are now. Strange, is it not?


Robert Rogers: The leader of the opposition apparently forgets that last year there was an election.


Arthur Meighen: Hear, hear.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Goderich-Harbour	repairs and improvements,
Arthur Meighen: This is the major item
of the whole Ontario estimates. It is a very large sum, and the same amount was spent last year. What riding is this in?
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William Lyon Mackenzie King: North Huron.


Arthur Meighen: I see. How many ships come into that harbour?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: A great many;
it is probably one of the most important lake ports, as my hon. friend knows.


Arthur Meighen: Well, it is better than
others.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We are asking
for $150,000, $25,000 of which is a revote. The vote is to complete a contract entered into with Mr. Forrest for widening the entrance to the channel of 400 feet and enlarging the turning basin to a depth of twenty-three feet. It is not necessary for me to dilate on the importance of the harbour, for it is well known, not only to members from Ontario, but to business people throughout the country. It is well that the committee should be advised that the falling of the water in lake Erie has thrown on the department a burden which previously did not enter into our calculations. A number of important harbours have to be dredged today on account of the lowering of the lakes, and a large expenditure will have to be made.


Arthur Meighen: It will have to be kept
up?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Robert Rogers: Will the amount of this vote be sufficient to keep up that work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It will complete the present programme. To show the importance of the harbour I may say that whereas in 1915, 7,500,000 bushels of grain were handled, the quantity passing through the harbour in 1924 was 23,500,000. It is one of the largest of our lake ports.


Arthur Meighen: The largest on lake
Huron.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Harbours and rivers generally-repairs and improvements, $50,000.
Robert Rogers: What is to be done under this vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is required for general repairs and improvements to harbour and river works in Ontario. Seven items have been noted by the engineering department for expenditures this year and, as I have explained before, this amount is

to meet unforeseen conditions. The expenditures vary from a few dollars up to eight or nine hundred dollars. Last year we spent $31,363.


Arthur Meighen: Where was that money spent, in what counties, and with what results?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It might save
time if I were to file the details with Hansard. There are probably seventy-five or eighty items in all.


Arthur Meighen: Send them across.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The items range all the way up to $1,700 odd.


Mr. ROBINSON:: Will any part of this $50,000 be allotted to Belle River? I understand that sirifce the breakwater has been put in it has almost completely filled in with silt. The harbour is supposed to be important.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no allotment for Belle River.


Robert Rogers: There is at Kenora an important wharf that requires limited but very necessary improvement, particularly at this season of the year. There is going to be an international regatta there for one thing, and more than that, a good deal of shipping passes over the wharf. It was built some years ago, but it stands in need of considerable improvement to-day. I would ask the minister to look into the matter with a view to making such improvements as are found necessary.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall be glad to consider the matter.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The committee will be pained to hear the minister's reply to my hon. friend (Mr. Robinson) who has called attention to the sad state of affairs at Belle River. Some time ago the great importance of that harbour was impressed upon us: a large sum of money had to be spent at Belle River; we had to have a wharf there and it was absolutely imperative to do dredging and more dredging and still more dredging. Now, what has happened to Belle River? We are told to-night that although the wharf is finished the channel is now silted up and yet nothing is to be done about it. I am told by an hon. gentleman that it is partly broken down. Is nothing to be done for it? Or has the department now joined the "dry" forces as against the "wet" forces? I think the House knew very well

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that this wharf was very convenient for a particular traffic that certain gentlemen were supposed to be interested in. My hon. friend remembers that immortal bit of poetry, how Tim needed' King and King needed Tim? Now that Tim is no longer with us, has the usefulness of this port entirely ceased? Are we to say "amen" to all further expenditures at Belle River? Silted up-partly broken down-nothing for it in the estimates-Tim gone. Is that the trouble? [DOT]


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Not at all. We
undertook certain developments at Belle River on the advice of the engineering department. It was suggested that another revetment wall should be .built to confine the waters and prevent the silting up of the channel. I have not consented to that additional expenditure, and that is why there is no item for it in the estimates.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend finds himself suddenly filled with righteous resolution in connection with this matter.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh no.


Henry Lumley Drayton: He has got
his back to the wall, he is going to stop any further expenditure at Belle River. Will he go further and tell us-as the fact is-that he looks upon the money already spent there as thrown away? We have spent now well over $100,000 there, according 'to my recollection, with which I think the minister will agree. The channel has silted up just as we said it would. I do not know whether the wharf is used now or not. I want to go into a little bit of history in that connection. I am not suggesting for one minute that the minister knew where he was going to be led, but I recall on the first vote-and we debated it a good deal.-my hon. friend's information was that $30,000 would be the whole bill. It was not going to take very much the first year, but the expenditure went up and up until it was well over $100,000. Now, is that all to be abandoned, or is the channel again to be dredged? If so, for What?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend
is entirely mistaken. It is true that for many years money has been spent at Belle River for dredging, not only by this administration but by its predecessors. When my hon. friend says $100,000, he means the expenditure by his government.


Arthur Meighen: No.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We spent a certain sum of money to try to correct the silted condition of the channel.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: $20,000.


Arthur Meighen: Will the minister siana
up and say that he spent only $20,000?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am speaking for this government.


Arthur Meighen: No, his own government has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars there.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. Before the
Public Accounts committee last session the evidence was not by any means what my hon. friends desired to bring out. The expenditure at Belle River was undertaken on the recommendation of the department-


Mr. STEVENS:: Of Tim Healy.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: -it being suggested that once we built a retaining wall probably it would be necessary to build a second retaining wall. From the information I have received, if the work is to be effective probably another retaining wall will have to be built, but I am not satisfied that conditions warrant this further expenditure.


Arthur Meighen: We will get the details
shortly. The hon. minister knows his government has spent hugely larger sums than he states.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think
so.


Arthur Meighen: Yes he has, and we will be able to demonstrate it. The government did it in pursuance of a fraudulent election pledge.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, nothing else. I was in the contest and I know-I saw the pledge.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman,
there was no fraudulent election pledge at all.


An hon. MEMBER:: King does not need
Tim.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Not now.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The late Mr. Kennedy was elected in 1921, and as a member of this House and a minister of the crown he recommended to the government that this work be done. It was under consideration and being developed when he died.


Arthur Meighen: Being developed?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.
Supply-Public Works


Arthur Meighen: Not at all. I would
do more honour to the memory of the late Mr. Kennedy than to say of him what the minister says. It is true the late Mr. Kennedy had it under consideration, which means that some constituents were pressing it upon him, but never did it come to any maturity until the by-election in the month of March, 1923. Then in order to elect the government candidate, although at the general election they had a seven thousand majority, this government, through their agents, scattered throughout the riding handbills promising all sorts of public works. Those handbills were scattered up and down the riding by the thousand promising to bribe the electors with the money of the people of Canada. One of those handbills was produced in this House, and I have it yet. It ran something like this:
King needs Tim; so do you.
Tim and King-that is the thing.
King and Tim were to be paid for out of the treasury, and the new Minister of Public Works was to be made the agent for the purpose. He made himself the agent, he put a vote in the estimates the first year in the neighbourhood of $30,000, and he built something at Belle River. But from the hour he started to build until now there has never been anything come to that wharf save a few gasoline launches to bootleg whisky into the United States. There never was any other purpose for it. The minister poured money by the tens of thousands of dollars into that wharf, and he would not be a whit more guilty to-day if he had stood with his friend Tim Healy at Belle River and thrown it dollar by dollar into the water.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I take exception
to my right hon. friend's statement. The undertakings of the government were properly undertaken. It is not so.


Arthur Meighen: What is not so?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That we threw
away tens of thousands of dollars.


Arthur Meighen: Certainly. The minister
himself says he spent $20,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Will my hon.
friend say his government did not spend any money at Belle River?


Arthur Meighen: Certainly, we spent
money everywhere, but never for the purpose of-


William Lyon Mackenzie King: For the purpose
of shipping in and out of Belle River.


Arthur Meighen: The money spent before 1923-


Mr. KAY:: I rise to a point of order, Mr. Chairman. What item are we discussing?


Arthur Meighen: The general estimates.
Let me tell the hon. member for Missisquoi that I am glad he has had some sleep; he worked so hard that he was entitled to it. The money spent in Belle River prior to 1923 was a bagatelle, amounting to nothing; but this government has thrown money away there by the tens of thousands of dollars, and stands to-day convicted of having squandered it on a worthless enterprise for nothing but political purpose, as a bribe to the voters- an enterprise that the government now abandons. The minister stands up and says that to make it any good they have to spend more money on it but he is not going to consent to any further expenditure. The fact of the matter is that expenditure served its purpose. Now the money the people have paid out of their earnings, the taxes, the whole thing is wasted, and the government is convicted of a fraud.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Chairman, it
would1 be well for the members of the House to read the reports of the Public Accounts committee which investigated this matter last session. The evidence then presented showed that due to- the work that had been carried on by this government there had been stimulated in that district a brick plant and other developments. Money has been spent at Belle River for the last fifty years.


Arthur Meighen: What are the "other
developments"?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the
particulars before me.


Arthur Meighen: Was the minister ever
there?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Arthur Meighen: I should think not.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: Would
the minister give us the amount spent at Belle River last year, the year before and the year before that again?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Belle River is not under discussion. If my hon. friend wishes the information I shall be very glad to have the question asked and reply to it.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend is not
fair to the committee in that statement. When estimates of this kind are before the

Supply-Public Works
467:
House the minister invariably has his deputy with him, as is the case to-night, and it is quite customary for the deputy to bring with him all the figures affecting matters of this kind. We have discussed this subject every session. It is a matter upon which hon. members on this side have taken a very strong stand, warning the minister as to the inadvisability of this work right from its very inception; and it is a subject that the minister must have expected or known would arise. I submit that it is not fair to ask that members place the question on the order paper and then await the chance of an answer. We are entitled to an answer now.


Mr. POWER:: There is no item for Belle River this year, and we can hardly expect the minister to furnish information as to amounts spent in the last three or four or five years, or an item which does not exist so far as this year is concerned. We might as well bring down information as to money spent twenty years ago. The minister could not be expected to bring down everything spent in the department for twenty years.


Henry Herbert Stevens: My hon. friend has not
grasped the point. We are considering item 147, which involves an expenditure of $773,000. It may be that no specific detail is mentioned regarding this, but it is reasonable to expect the minister to have it. If the minister has not the information under his hand, he can let the item stand and bring it down.


Charles Gavan Power: But there is no item to
stand.


Henry Herbert Stevens: The whole item can
stand.


Charles Gavan Power: The whole of the Ontario
item?


Arthur Meighen: The theory of the hon.
member (Mr. Power) is that if the government abandons a worthless project it never can be criticized for what it did in reference to it.


Charles Gavan Power: No, my hon. friend is
wrong. I do not think my hon. friend (Mr. Stevens) is serious when he criticizes the minister for not having before him estimates with regard to Belle River when no question regarding Belle River is before the House.


Henry Herbert Stevens: No, I am not criticizing
him for that. But I criticize him for saying "Put the question on the order paper and I
will answer it." When the minister is asked for reasonable information in regard to the works in this or any other part of the country, the House is entitled to that information.


Charles Gavan Power: The hon. member thinks
the minister should have it with him.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The hon. member for Vancouver Centre must have misunderstood me. I said that the item for Belle River was not in the estimates, and that I had not the information here. I shall be glad to supply that information to the committee.


Henry Herbert Stevens: That is all right.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Or I shall be
glad to answer questions on the order paper. Many questions have been put to the government, but there was no question about Belle River. Belle River was investigated by the Public Accounts committee last year. I shall see that the information is furnished.


Henry Herbert Stevens: To the committee?


Arthur Meighen: I can furnish a little information now that will perhaps help the minister. He said that this government spent $20,000 in all. I may say that he spent $29,000 odd in 1934 alone. I have the item before me. It appears in the Public Accounts for 1924 at page part V-106:
Belle River, harbour improvements, protection wail: Detroit River Construction Company, contract complete, $32,360.25, less $3,530 paid in 1923-24, V-142; painting, $500; inspection of contract work, $545, $29,875.25.
That is in 1924 alone. Has not the minister before him the amount for last year. If so we could then see how accurate this information is about Belle River.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We will see how accurate the member's statement is that we spent $120,000.


Arthur Meighen: I said $100,000 for all the years of this government. This is only one year.
Mr, BOYS: I understand the minister made the statement that $20,000 had been spent. I have just taken the trouble to go upstairs and look up the record, and I hold in my hand the evidence given by the engineer, Mr. Hugo Craig, before the Public Accounts committee on May 7, 1925. I had not the time to go through it completely, but I may direct the minister's attention to the evidence at page 5, where, in connection with the first item 147, his evidence appears. The estimate
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on that alone, as given by the engineer on that occasion, was $27,663.28. The next item he gave evidence in regard to was an expenditure of $3,604.23, making a total, the report shows; of $32,360. We had passed the item for dredging which of course came out of the general vote disguised in that way, and the original estimate for the dredging was SI 1,000. I will read now what the engineer had to say as to that, on page 6 of the evidence :
Q. How 'long?-A. For the length of the channel, which I figured out to 'be ten feet.
Q. That was the estimate? Can you tell me how much has been spent for dredging to date?-A. I only have this here; $40,000 last year.
Q. These are the round figures?-A. Yes.
Q. $40,000?-A. Yes.
Q. Has $40,000 completed the work contemplated by the estimate of $11,000?-A. No.
Q. How much more will it take to do it?-A. About $10,000.
That contemplated the dredging of a channel 10 feet deep end 50 feet wide plus one foot sub grade allowance.
Add $40,000 to $10,000. then add $32,000, and you get $82,000. I am sure the deputy minister will recall that we were told that to complete that work it would cost $125,000. I do not suppose the minister will dispute these figures. If he said $20,000 he was absolutely in error. I do not know where he gets the figures. He said that money had been spent by the previous government. He is quite correct. I do not know whether he has the figures before him, but if he has he will see that they were trifling compared with these. I think if we go to Belle River we will find that the dredging which was done, which was to cost $11,000, comes to over $40,000.


Mr. STANSELL:: In .this vote which we are now discussing for harbours and rivers, is provision being made for dredging at Port Dover? I notice that nothing appears in the estimates.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is not a dredging vote. It is for repairs and upkeep of wharves and piers.


John Lawrence Stansell: The dredging is not in it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Mr. MORAND:: I would like to get some information about work done on Pike's Creek, ten miles west of Belle River. What was spent there and what was it spent for?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no record of any expenditure there. I shall be glad to look into the matter and advise my hon. friend.
[Mr. Boys.l


Raymond Ducharme Morand: I think if the minister
looks up the expenditures for the last part of September or October of last year he will find the contractors did some work there. I do not know how much.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no knowledge of an expenditure on Pike's Creek. Is it known by any other name? I do not find it in the list.


Raymond Ducharme Morand: That is the only name by which it is known. It runs out of the township of Maidstone in the county of Essex, and runs into lake St. Glair about ten miles west of Belle river.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have no knowledge of any expenditure there, but I shall be glad to have inquiries made.


John Lawrence Stansell: Naturally I do not want to criticise, but when I interviewed the minister and1 his deputy I was told that the necessary amount for dredging at Port Dover could be supplied from the general vote. Where would that item appear?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is on page
39.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Holland river-wharf repairs, $7,200.
Henry Lumley Drayton: That seems to be a new item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is for wharf repairs, renewing the stringers and capping for the full length and width of the structure, 75 feet by 14 feet.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Has anything
been spent yet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. The engineer reports that this work is essential to maintain the structure.
Item agreed .to.
Honey Harbour-dredging, $7,200.


Robert Rogers: We spent last year $15,000, and we are asked this year to vote $7200. Would the minister give some explanation?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was a contract entered into last year, and this item of $7,200, of which $5,300 is a revote is to complete the contract.


Mr. McGIBBON:: Who is the contractor?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Light is the
contractor. The contract was entered into on. October 27, 1924.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
Kincardine-repairs to piers, $13,000.
Robert Rogers: What is the explanation
of this? I see that $25,000 was voted last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount is
required to complete the contract with Messrs. Keys Brothers for the rebuilding of a portion of the east and river revetment walls in the inner harbour for a length of 362 feet; also the reconstruction of 160 feet of the south pier.


Robert Rogers: When was this contract
let?


Mr KING (Kootenay):: On July 17, 1925.


Robert Rogers: A very good time.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract advertised?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: About the 1st of July, I imagine.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The hon. member had it well in hand. I understand the hon. .member for North Bruce has a very eloquent speech ready in favour of this item, and that he knows exactly how many boats come into the harbour, and exactly why the House should vote this item. I think he should favour us with that speech.


Arthur Meighen: If he would produce a photograph or a moving picture of the argosy of ships that daily come into that harbour it wrould be illuminating and inspiring.


Mr. MALCOLM:: The only thing I can contribute is that it is true that none of the harbours on lake Huron are served with a passenger sendee, but it is equally true that there is some shipping in connection with these ports, and it is equally true that all these harbours are fishing harbours. Kincardine harbour would probably not justify dredging except for one reason: There is a salt industry there that uses from 6.000 to
8,000	tons of coal, which would have to discontinue operations if it could not get waterborne coal. I am free to say this to my right hon. friend, that in conference with the minister I insisted this year that these people guarantee a given amount of tonnage of coal before I favoured any further dredging. The leader of the opposition is quite right in saying that it is questionable whether these harbours should be dredged or not, but there does arise the question of refuge for
vessels in distress during storms at Southampton, Kincardine and other points. I am not particularly desirous of any heavy expenditure, but it is hard to let the property go into disrepair. The fishing rigs have to have seven or eight feet of water. The salt company has to bring coal in, and the other industries also are getting their coal by water. There is also a good deal of wood and lumber shipped in.


Arthur Meighen: About what tonnage
would come in last year? It will all be in the reports.


James Malcolm: The tonnage was light last year, due to the fact that the dredging was done late. The Glenelg, that was bringing coal for the Valley Camp Coal Company, could not get in till the dredging was finished, and as the dredging was late it was October before the boat managed to make its first trip with a cargo of 2,500 tons of coal. A return trip was not made on account of the bad weather conditions. There were also a few 'cargoes of wood. This year the salt company agrees to import a greater tonnage of coal. I am simply placing this item before the House in its true light. These harbours have to be maintained to some extent. While it is hard to justify a large expenditure on any of them, it is equally hard to allow the works that the government have to go into a state of entire disrepair.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend is overlooking one item there. I really am disappointed with him. I thought he was going to give us a real speech in favour of fishing, and I wanted to help him. This is a place where there is first rate fishing, and lots of it. They require some harbours of refuge down there, and as there is only $2,000 more to be raised, I think we should raise it.


Robert Rogers: Has the minister in mind anything further in the supplementary estimates to assist this harbour?
(Mr. KING (Kootenay): I am not sure. The amount asked for here will complete the work we have in mind so far as the harbour is concerned this year. It is very difficult to know what to do in some of these cases. I find that the people of Canada have spent $499,000 on the harbour at Kincardine since confederation, and on construction since 1912, $162,000, showing that there is business passing in and out of this
Supply-Public Works

harbour. A fishing business is conducted there, and also the salt business that my hon. friend has spoken of. This is a revote, and the additional $2,000 is to complete the contract entered into last year, which is to reconstruct several public works that are in existence there to-day.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Meaford-towards reconstruction of revetment wall,
110,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract let?


Robert Rogers: Would the minister explain this item? We spent $9,000 there last year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount is
required towards the reconstruction of a revetment wall on the east side of the harbour. It is proposed to spread this work over a period of three years. The work will consist of new steel anchorage piles with concrete face behind these piles 18 inches wide, tied back to concrete anchor blocks. The total estimated cost is $27,300, and the amount asked for this year is $10,000.


Peter McGibbon: What is the total
amount of tonnage that goes to Meaford harbour?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The tonnage of
coastwise and inland vessels going in and out of the harbour is 1,541.


Mr. LENNOX:: I see that in vote 147 provision is made to the amount of $2,600 for repairs to the Holland river wharf. Unfortunately I was not here when the item went through. I do not object to spending money in my riding, but there is no wharf on the Holland river. The waterway there is known as the Aylesworth canal, which has no wharf. I should like to know where the wharf is.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Cut it out.


Thomas Herbert Lennox: I think you should cut
it out.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This wharf is
situated right at the bridge over the Holland river. The plan I have shows a wharf and stone and gravel bridge with the county road approaching it. My hon. friend with his local knowledge, would better understand the conditions than I would. The place is used extensively by the tourist trade of lake "Sim-coe, and some 20 tons of fish and 2,400 tons

of marsh hay are shipped annually. This is merely a matter of recontruction and maintenance. If the government have no property of that kind there we will check the matter up and see that the money is not spent.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Midland-wharf and dredging, $75,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: There are two
items for Midland, Midland wharf and Midland dredging. Will the minister give an explanation?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The item is $75,-
000 of which $40,000 is a revote. This is to complete the contract with the MacDonald Engineering Company Limited, for the construction of a 'wharf and dredging at the wharf. The next item is for dredging within the harbour. These are two separate and distinct contracts.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will my hon
friend say when those contracts were awarded?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The date of the
contract is December, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Which one is
that?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The one covered
by the first item.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was it
advertised?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh, for probably
two or three weeks.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend has no informatoin as to when it was advertised?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The order in
council granting authority to accept the tender of the MacDonald Engineering Company was passed on November 23, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: As a matter of
fact were not these tenders put in in September?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Or October?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The bids were
due on November 10th.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Do not calls
for tenders have to be advertised for three weeks ?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Two or three weeks.

Supply-Public Works


Henry Lumley Drayton: So if the bids were due on November 10, the advertisements appeared prior to the elections?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Surely some work had to go on prior to the elections.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We understand.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Cut it out.


Robert Rogers: I point out to the minister that Midland is a very important port. Perhaps he could give us some information on the quantity of grain pasing through that port. I am sure that any money required to develop Midland will be money well spent. I have no objection to the item but we would like to have some information concerning it. I recognize the importance of the port, which should receive the assistance of the government at any time.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Midland, in the township of Tay, county of Simcoe, is a thriving port, situated at the southeasterly extremity of the Georgian bay, and has a population of 8,400. The town is a terminus of the Canadian National railway, distant 102 miles from Toronto, and is 9 miles by water from the Georgian bay port of the Canadian Pacific railway, namely, Port McNichol. The town is primarily a marine centre and its chief business water-borne commerce. Its industries are as follows:	Grain elevators-five
houses in operation having a total 9 p.m. capacity of 8,500,000 bushels, and a sixth house under construction,
1,500,000	bushels capacity. There are two saw mills and three flour mills with a capacity of 1,200 barrels per day, and coal docks. The Midland Shipbuilding Company is located there. The largest ship constructed to date is the Glenifer, 560 feet long. Other concerns are the Georgian Bay Shipbuilding and Wrecking Company, the International Fibre Board Company, the Midland Wood products Company, the Midland Boat Works, Machine and Foundry Shop, and others. It is quite an extensive industrial town and the port is considered one of the best on the upper lakes.


Robert Rogers: I am indebted to the minister for the information he has given; I am very glad to have it. We in the west are very much interested in the port of Midland, and I hope the minister will continue to give it any legitimate assistance it may require. The port is of great value to western Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Oshawa-(harbour improvements, $30,000.
William Duff: Shall the item carry?


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Cut it out.


Mr. CHAPLIN (Lincoln):: Yes, of course, cut it out.


Mr. McPHEE:: The vote for harbours and rivers in Saskatchewan and Alberta only amounts to $15,000, and yet it is proposed to vote $30,000 for Oshawa harbour.


Mr. KAISER:: I point out to the minister that there was an item of $100,000 in the estimates last year for Oshawa harbour improvements, but it has been reduced this year to $30,000. I did not anticipate that we should get quite as much as last year, but a reduction to $30,000 is a very sharp drop. So far as I can figure it out, with such a method of procedure the harbour will not be ready for operations within fifteen years; it will take that time to complete at the rate now proposed. That is too slow a rate of progress. The harbour is badly needed in Oshawa.


An hon. MEMBER:: What do you want a harbour for?


Thomas Erlin Kaiser: Why do we need a harbour? If you close Oshawa harbour you might just as well close all the harbours along the lake. I wish to say to hon. members that at Oshawa we take in more tonnage than all the ports between Montreal and Toronto put together, and we should like to be able to use that harbour to a still greater extent. Some of our manufacturers have already secured sites along the Lachine canal in Montreal for the storage of their goods. It has been anticipated for some time that they will be able to use the Oshawa harbour to ship goods in that way. We started out to have a harbour there. The old harbour was destroyed. They went to work to reconstruct and rebuild it and we had hopes that in five years' time we would have our harbour, but with this tremendously reduced appropriation the period of its completion will be postponed almost indefinitely. The reduction means that the work will go on a little too slowly. We do not wish the full amount voted at once, but we think that within four or five years we are entitled to have a harbour at Oshawa, and the government should give the matter a little more consideration.


Robert Rogers: There was $100,000 in the estimates last year. How much was spent?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: 


Robert Rogers: The minister is asking for only $30,000 this year. Does he think that will be sufficient to take care of the require-1 ments of such an important harbour as Oshawa?
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William Lyon Mackenzie King: It will complete the contract and repair the existing works that are there. It will not complete the harbour.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Owen Sound-dredging, $20,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this a new contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No; it is under contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract awarded?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: 29th June, 1925.


Robert Rogers: How much was spent last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: 


Robert Rogers: Only $20,000 is required this year for this important harbour?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This work was done in conjunction with the municipality who guaranteed the bonds for the construction of an elevator at that point. It is becoming a grain point and we did certain dredging and harbour improvements in order that they might carry on this elevator in the municipality.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Findlay-wharf repairs, $2,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no contract; this is just repairs by day labour.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Burwell-reconstruction of and repairs to pier, $45,800.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this under contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Ye3. This is to complete the contract with Wm. Birmingham and Son for the construction of a rubble wall connecting the outer, end of the west pier with the inner end of the west breakwater. Of this, $12,000 is a revote. There was expended last year $82,840.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the contract entered into?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: December 15, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: And the advertisements were issued when?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Possibly in November.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Were the tenders not due on the same fatal 10th day of November? Was the job work not advertised in October?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Robert Rogers: This is a very important harbour and we are glad to know some money is being spent on it. Could the minister give us some information as to the tonnage?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Pert Burwell is a point of landing of much coal that comes into Ontario. There were 5,499 cars of coal having a tonnage of 316,279 tons. Of other merchandise there were 383 cars with a tonnage of 11,287 tons. The south bound traffic in merchandise amounted to 331 cars or 8,310 tons. This makes a total of 6,658 cars, or 335,876 tons. There was a collection in duties of $128,000.


Robert Rogers: This is evidently a very important port. It is very important to western Canada as well because much of our grain passes through it. We are always pleased to find it being properly developed. I hope the minister will continue the work.
Item aigreed to.
Port Colborne-Repairs to breakwater, $15,000.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this all old work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is a contract to rebuild in concrete 134 lineal feet of superstructure of the west breakwater and to place riprap along unprotected portions of the breakwater for a distance of 420 feet. The estimated cost is as follows:
Reconstruction of breakwater	 $ 8,897 60
Inspection and contingencies	 1,102 40
Facing of riprap to protect break-	[DOT]
water, 1,000 tons at $5 a ton.. ..	5,000 00
Total	 $15,000 00


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this under contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Not yet.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Maitland-Repairs to pier, $18,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this entirely a
re vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is under contract and it is a revote to complete. It is to widen the entrance channel, construct a new outer arm of all concrete caissons and to reconstruct the inner arm with . concrete superstructure.

Supply-Public Works


Robert Rogers: Will this complete the contract in full?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Stanley-Harbour improvements and repairs, $118,000.
Mr. SANDERSON:: What was the tonnage at Port Stanley last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The tonnage is as follows:
Cars	Tonnage
2,859	 124,967
6,211	collier in bulk	 343,724
Total	 468,691


Robert Rogers: This is a very important harbour. Is the minister sure that the amount in the estimate will be sufficient to complete the work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This will complete the present undertaking.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this under contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was it entered into?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: July 16, 1925- well in advance.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Rondeau-Dredging, $32,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: This is a revote. Why has this been carried so long without anything being done?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The company who handle coal at this point had certain construction work to do, and until they had completed it we could not profitably go on with the dredging. The work will now be proceeded with.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this under contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Tenders will be
called for.


Robert Rogers: And the work will go
on immediately?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As soon as the
contract is let.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Southampton-repairs to breakwaters, $6,400.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that under
contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No; this is to
continue repairs and renewals to the existing harbour works commenced in 1924-25. The repairs to the east breakwater amount to $1,020; to the west breakwater, consisting of 400 feet of superstructure, $5,355; and contingencies, $25, making a total of $6,400.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Thessalon-to complete breakwater extension, $14,000.
Robert Rogers: The original vote was $16,000, of which the present estimate is a revote. Only $2,000 hafe been spent. Why has not the work been more expeditiously carried out?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is almost complete now.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the date
of the contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: December 15,
1923.


Robert Rogers: This vote will complete it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Robert Rogers: The contractor is still
active?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes; the work has been practically completed, and this amount will close it.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Thornbury-reipairs to revetment wall, $1,400.
Robert Rogers: This is a new item.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is just for repairs.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Windsor-wharf repairs, $2,000.
Sidney Cecil Robinson: Is there any revenue from the public dock in Windsor?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The dock is under the control of the Marine department and certain revenues are collected from shipping. I have not the amount.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Perhaps the
minister will give to Hansard the appropriations not required?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They are as
follows:
Appropriations not required for 1926-27
Appropriation
Harbours and Rivers:
Beaumaris-reipairs to wharf	$ 1,000
Blind River-To replace warehouse	 2,000
Bronte-wharf repairs	 4,900

Supply-Public Works

Harbours and Rivers.-Con.
CodiLingwood-Breakwater reconstruction.. ..	35,000
Cumberland-wharf reconstruction	10,500
Grand Bend-repairs to pier	 1,400
Honey Harbour-wharf	 11,600
Jeanette's Creek-wharf repairs	 1,000
Kingsvilde-repairs and renewals to piers.. ..	9,400
Laurenson Lake-dredging	 2,000
Leamington-Breakwater	 10,000
Leamington-repairs to pier	   1,000
Lion's Head-repairs to pier	 900
L'Orignal-contribution towards cost of shore
protection etc	 2,000
New Liskeard-wharf repairs	 3,650
Owen Sound-harbour wall	 15,000
Pelee Island-repairs to piers	 2,400
Pelee Island-wharf extension	 28,000
Petawawa-wharf repairs	 1,800
Pike Creek-wharf repairs and sheet piling.. 1,425
Point Edward-dredging	 30,000
Port Dover-repairs to pier	 1,000
Providence Bay-wharf repairs	 2,100
Rainy River-wharf repairs	 2,800
St. William-repairs to pier	 2,250
Sault Ste. Marie-dredging slip	 61,000
Stokes Bay-repairs to pier	 4,000
Tfhorah Island-harbour improvements .. ..	1,050
Thornbury-wharf repairs	 6,200
Trenton-to take over from municipality by
water dock	 13,100
Wendover-wharf repairs	 6,000
Wheatley-repairs to pier	 1,500

Item agreed to.


William Duff: Shall the item as a
whole carry?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Looking over
the itemized statement of expenditures for 1925-26 up to March 31, I find that the minister did not quite steel his heart against Belle River improvements. He spent 1290 in connection with that harbour out of the general vote. That would bring the expenditures up to $82,560, and apparently he will not use the balance of the $125,000.
Manitoba-
Dauphin Beach-Wharf	 $ 2,300
Gimli-Repairs to pier	 3,300
Harbours and Rivers Generally-Repairs
and improvements	 10,000
Hecla-Repairs to pier	 2,000
Victoria Beach-Breakwater extension.. 3,550


Mr. HAY:: I have no objection to these
items passing, but I must say a word or two in connection with some of the votes which are included. First of all I would call the attention of the minister to the condition existing along the river bank from the city of Winnipeg north of St. Andrew's locks for a distance of eighteen or twenty miles. I have here a resolution which throws some light on the situation. This resolution I received the

other day from the secretary-treasurer of the municipality of East St. Paul's, which is north of Winnipeg. The conditions complained of in the resolution are also to be found at many points along the Red river between Winnipeg and St. Andrew's locks on both banks, and matters are getting gradually worse. I have directed the attention of the department to this state of affairs on several occasions, but so far little has been done. Some work has been performed in the shape of riprap in connection with St. Andrew's locks, and I have no doubt that the department fully realize that the construction of those locks has been responsible for the erosion along the banks of Red river even further south than Winnipeg. The resolution in question is accompanied by a letter which reads:
At the last meeting of council-
That is, the council of St. Paul's:
-a delegation of ratepayers waited on the council re the erosion of the banks of the Red river especially as it affects lots 88, 89 and 90 and the following resolution was passed.
The resolution is to the effect that a letter be written to the chief engineer at Winnipeg and to the mentbers representing the different constituencies, bringing the matter to their attention. The letter then states:
The ratepayers living on these banks report that the situation is becoming serious not only to their property but also to the main highway which cornea very close to the banks of the Red river at lots 88 and 89.
I can endorse this resolution because I know that what it states is quite correct. I am familiar with almost every foot of the beach from Winnipeg to lake Winnipeg and I know just what the conditions are like along the river. Before the construction of St. Andrew's lodes the beach along the river to Winnipeg on both sides was stony, and there was absolutely no danger of erosion or of washout while the river was at normal height. But since the raising of the water by the construction of the locks the level has gone beyond the stony beach and consequently the banks along the river, particularly at certain points, are being rapidly washed away, so that the road on each side of the river is being damaged to a considerable extent. I wish to give the minister timely warning, because if this condition is allowed to continue the Dominion government will be responsible for a large sum of money in the shape of damages by the construction of St. Andrew's locks. I should like to see the government take action. This is a question of very great importance to the people of that district, but I do not

Supply-Public Works
wish to take up any further time of the House discussing it; on the contrary, I wish to do all I can to expedite the business of the House, because like many other western members I feel we have been a very long time here and so far as I can see we have accomplished very little in the interests of the country. I repeat, I am anxious to expedite the business of the House so that we may be able to get home as soon as possible. I do not mean to say that we should overlook any questions of importance, but during the six months we have been here we have wasted far too much time, and I certainly want to see the remaining business disposed of without further delay.
I want to ask the hon. minister another question. We have been working on the harbour at Big George's island, lake Winnipeg, for about six years. Will any portion of the item we are now voting or of the general item under dredging be devoted towards the completion of this harbour?


Robert Rogers: I should like to associate
myself with those who have pointed out the necessity for the item in the estimates for the province of Manitoba. My only regret is that they are too small to meet the requirements. For example, I am sure that the
12,000	to be expended on the wharf at Dauphin will not be at all sufficient. The same remark applies to Gimli. The latter is a new vote. There is a great deal of traffic to and from Gimli, and it is necessary to provide for more improvements than those suggested in the vote. Then again the vote of $10,000 for harbours and rivers generally is far below what is necessary to meet our requirements. We have a harbour commission at Winnipeg, and as a result of the development of St. Andrew's locks a few years ago there is a good deal of tonnage coming up and down the river, necessitating a harbour of some kind. The absence of proper accommodation is a very great handicap to the development of Winnipeg, a city of 250,000 people. I am sure if the minister looks into the matter he will have no hesitation in making provision for improving the semblance of a wharf that we have there now. I hope when the supplementary estimates come down we shall find he has inserted at least $50,000 for this purpose. I am confident I can convince the minister of the pressing necessity for improving the wharf to such an extent that it will meet the requirements of the traffic that has developed there. I am glad to see an item for Victoria Beach, but it is too small. Last year the vote was $24,000. Has that been spent?
14011-297j


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The $3,550 is required to complete the contract for the breakwater extension at Victoria Beach.


Robert Rogers: My hon. friend will notice
that the appropriations not required for 192627 amount to $71,000 odd. Has that all been
expended?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Practically all. I
will give my hon. friend the particulars:
Voted Expended
Delto-protection work...$33,000	$31,703	16Gimli harbour-jetty	
10,200	7,962	16Netley Cut-closing channel..	..	3,500	2,714	77Portage la Prairie-sewer extension	
7,200	7,188	06Red River-protection work..	..	18,000	11,105	59


Robert Rogers: There is nothing in the estimates this year for the protection of the Red river. That is most important.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. We are
advised that what takes place is due to natural causes, not to any work the government has put in the river.


Robert Rogers: Quite right; still the government has to take care of these difficulties as they arise.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If you attempt to take care of natural erosion you have a very large contract on your hands.


Robert Rogers: I should be glad if the
minister would give us something to improve our landing in the city of Winnipeg.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is quite
necessary.


Henry Lumley Drayton: In corroboration of what was said by the right hon. leader of the opposition as to the difference between the votes before and after the general election, I would point out that this year the vote for Manitoba is only $21,150, while last year it was $112,500.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We are merely
completing work undertaken last year or the year before.


Mr. MULLINS:: What is the minister doing in regard to the Assiniboine river between Winnipeg and Portage la Prairie? Does he intend to use this $10,000 for the purpose?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Two years ago a large deputation from that area suggested the government should dyke and protect these lands. An investigation was made, and it was found the work would cost a very large
Supply-Public Works

sum of money, so much so that I think everybody was content to keep away from it. Last year surveys were made, and within the last few weeks it has been suggested that by the construction of certain drainage canals, I think three in all, we would give opportunity for the water to run off at an earlier date and thus relieve the situation Representations have been made to us by hon. members from Manitoba. I am not asking parliament anything for the work at the present time. I promised to have the matter checked up by the engineering department, and if the municipality and the provincial government are of the opinion that this work would give relief to the community, I think I can recommend the federal government to co-operate. But I do not think the whole burden should be cast upon the federal government. There should be co-operation.


Robert Rogers: I agree with the minister
that the whole burden should not be placed upon the Department of Public Works, and I assure him now that he can depend upon the co-operation both of the local government and of the municipalities. Dyking is very much required in that district, because owing to the lack of it a great deal of damage is being done to the land. There is a strong feeling in the matter, and there is good reason why some work should be done. I am quite sure the minister will get the support of the municipality for any estimate he brings down.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have suggested
that the local authorities should be not only a party to the expenditure but should cooperate in it. We will try and work out something which will bring relief.


Henry Alfred Mullins: Is there no item in the estimates for dredging at Port Nelson?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


Henry Alfred Mullins: Is this the amount the
minister intends for Port Nelson?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Port Nelson is
under the Railway department. Whatever is being done is being done by that department.


Thomas Hay: Before the item carries I want !o impress upon the minister that the erosion that has taken place along the bank of the Red river is not due to natural causes. In proof of that I may say that no money has been spent on account of any erosion of banks taking place north of St. Andrew's locks, between St. Andrew's locks and lake Winnipeg, a distance of something like thirty miles. When the water is at its normal height all 
the year round no erosion takes place; the banks are protected by the natural stony beach. But when the water has been raised by reason of construction to twenty feet above normal you can readily understand that there is no protection afforded by the stony beach, because the water is lapping on the shore above. That is why the erosions take place. I do not know what the report of the engineer is, and I do not care. The matter is becoming serious, and the government must do something to protect certain points along the river. They have done so to some extent already. WTien the government built the St. Andrew's locks they realized that erosion would take place along the river and they made provision to protect the bank at many points by riprapping the stone. These points therefore are guarded, but there is erosion at other points not protected. The condition is getting worse every year; as much as thirty feet of roadway have been washed out through the parish of St. Andrew's north of Winnipeg. I hope the government will put something in the supplementary estimates to prevent the . erosion taking place along the river.


Henry Alfred Mullins: I cannot understand why only $21,500 out of $120,000 was expended under that item. Was it because there was an election on the 29th of October that there was a reduction in the appropriation for Manitoba? There is an amount of $300,000 provided for Quebec, and in other places large amounts. In Manitoba we have only $21,500 spent. I cannot understand it, and the people of Manitoba will not understand it when it is brought to their attention. The minister should give a little consideration to that.


Mr. HOWDEN:: In reference to dyking and draining, up to the present it has been impossible to get the government of Manitoba to undertake anything at all in the matter of dyking the Assioiboine river.


Robert James Manion: Why not put in a good
government?


John Power Howden: Perhaps we will. Up to
the last three weeks the government of Manitoba has been approached with regard to dyking the Assiniboine river and draining certain low areas, but not only have they not seen their way clear to take any action in the matter, but they have not agreed to join hands in relieving these conditions.


Henry Alfred Mullins: It is not part of my
constituency, but I know it very well. There are two or three little islands in the Assiniboine river that block the river and hold the

Supply-Pub lie Works
ice back A large number of settlers are practically ruined' by the overflow of water from the Assiniboine river, and the minister should in fairness to that province do something to give these settlers redress.


Thomas Hay: With respect to the completion of the harbour on Big George island in lake Winnipeg, is there any appropriation made?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is nothing in the estimates for that work. I understand there has been some dredging going on for the last year. I have no information, but there is nothing in the estimates for it. We have later on an amount for dredging in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. I imagine that in that item we will find an estimate there taking care of the works in Manitoba. My hon. friend will realize there are not a great many public works or wharves; probably they are not as pressing as they may be later on as the country settles. Last year we undertook a considerable amount of work, as we did the year before. The estimates this year will largely clear up the work undertaken during the last two or three years.


Thomas Hay: Big George harbour is very important.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
British Columbia-Beaver Point-Wharf repairs, {2,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Any existing
contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Blubber bay-Wharf, $3,300.
Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Where are
these wharves?
Mr. KING (Kootenay:) In the constituency of Alberni, on Vancouver island.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Comox-Alberni?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How much has Comox-Alberni got in this vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not know: I have not checked it that way.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Would not that be a wise thing to do? I should think after the efforts of the hon. member he should get suitable recognition, both he and Moses and Jeremiah. That trio I think should get real recognition. This is the first recognition. Is there an existing contract for the work at Blubber bay?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In October, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Who is the contractor?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: R. Bumstead, of Vancouver. His tender was for $5,849, and the highest tender was $10,924.


Henry Lumley Drayton: He seems to be much more reasonable than the other chap.


John Wesley Edwards: I do not
know' that I can qualify as the hon. member for Comox-Alberni can to obtain support from the government, but on the ground of justice and fair play I am sure that I can.
I just want to say this on this item of repairs. Speaking in a general way, and that is the only way in which I can speak, I think the fact has been established that in the last six or seven years the "water level of lake Ontario has fallen pretty nearly 4 feet, and in consequence of that lower level difficulties are met with in several of the small harbours. It is up to this government or to any government to meet the conditions which have been brought about by this lowering of the water level. The government will have many appeals made to them for dredging at these places, which appeals should receive most careful and favourable consideration, because the conditions have been changed by this lowering of the water level. At many places that are dependent, for instance, on coal the vessels cannot get into the wharf without lightering a considerable portion of their cargo on account of the low water. I merely want to put myself on record from this side of the House as saying that in my judgment the government should make generous provision in the supplementary estimates to meet these conditions which have been brought about by the lowering of the water levels on the lakes. They are not responsible for that lowering of the water level. To what extent the Chicago diversion is responsible I am not prepared to say, but it is the duty of this government or of any other government to meet the situation fairly, and so far as I am concerned, speaking from this side of the House, I am prepared to give very generous consideration to supplementary estimates brought in with the intention of meeting those changed conditions.


James Malcolm: I am very glad indeed to hear the hon. member for Frontenac-Ad-dington speak on this subject. From the main estimates there have been excluded a great many small requests for grants at small ports on the Georgian bay and lake Huron, the
Supply-Public Works

point on the Great Lakes most affected by this lowering of the water level. In many of these small harbours the people have only one way of getting their products out. At several points on the west side of the Georgian bay where there used to be 10 feet of water-and in some cases 12 feet of water was arranged for by governments in days gone by-the water is now down to 6 or 7 feet, and it is absolutely impossible to get even a small boat in. I want to join with the hon. member for Frontenac-Addington in impressing on the minister the necessity of meeting these several requests made by different places on the Georgian bay. The votes that are requested are not large in total, but they mean a great deal to the individual settlements. I hope these requests will be looked after.


Mr. SUTHERLAND (South Oxford):: We are getting very close to the end of the session, and surely the supplementary estimates must be almost, if not quite, complete. Would it not be better if we had some idea of what is going to be brought down in the supplementary estimates when we are passing the main estimates? I have heard of certain cases where votes have already been promised in the supplementary estimates. There is nothing in these estimates to indicate what is coming down later, and consequently they do not give one a fair idea as to what is really being done, or as to the expenditure that may be expected during the coming year.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I can assure my hon. friend that the supplementary estimates are being developed, and, indeed, they are now before the government for consideration.
I am hopeful that they will be brought down at a very early date, so far as the estimates of this department are concerned, and I believe that is true of all the departments.


Donald Sutherland: It
would save a good deal of time and be much more satisfactory, now that we are nearing, as we hope at least, the close of the session, if we knew what was really in the mind of the government with regard to these various estimates.


Mr.   IIAY@: I trust that provision will be made in the supplementary estimates for the safeguarding of the banks of the Red river at points which I have already brought to the notice of the government. The fact that the government have already done some work in connection with those banks, on the advice of their engineers, shows that they appreciate that they are responsible for the

erosion that is taking place. It is a matter of the utmost importance to the settlers along the Red river, as well as to the municipal councils on both sides of the river, because the councils will be called upon to replace the roads that are washed away, and that is not their business. It is because the government has not taken action to safeguard those roads and property along the river that the water rose to 20 feet south of the locks.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I would hesitate to commit the government or to recommend to the House that we should place any large sum in our estimates for river bank protection. Every individual case must be considered on its merits. You have first the owner of the property; he is primarily interested, and if protection is necessary he should do something himself. Then there are the local authorities, then the provincial government, and lastly the Dominion government, and if there is a case that should be considered it should come up through these channels to the Dominion government rather than go down from the Dominion government through those channels.


Thomas Hay: If the work was done in the near future it would cost very little, because the rock is easily obtainable near Selkirk.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall be glad to have inquiries made.


Mr. MURPHY:: Can the minister tell us the total amount that will be in the supplementary estimates for harbours and rivers?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not that here, nor in my mind. The supplementaries have been running from three to four or five million dollars per year; I am speaking only of the time we have been in office, because we have been keeping them down pretty well, as my hon. friend from West York, I know will agree.


Charles Murphy: Would the minister say it would be about the same amount this year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I could not say, but the expenditures have been pretty well controlled. In 1924-25 the total estimate was $18,639,000; 1925-26, $17,754,000; in 191213, $18,880,000. In 1913-14 some forty-eight millions was voted for public works, and so on. The amount varies from year to year.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
Columbia river, below Burton-bank protection, $4,000.
Columbia river at Revelstoke-bank protection, $7,000.
Mr. FRASER:: The minister made a statement in regard to the protection of the banks of rivers. I should like to know what is the policy of the department or the government in that regard. It was stated a few moments ago that the owner had a certain responsibility in the matter of protecting a river bank, and also the municipality. In the cases I have in mind there is no municipality; the only parties concerned are the owner and the Dominion government.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I tried to make clear to my hon. friend a few moments ago that in the matter of river bank protection I thought the local owner who was primarily interested should move first, then the municipality or the provincial government, and finally the Dominion government. The vote for Columbia river protection is asked because we find it more profitable to protect the river bank at that point rather than allow the bank to fall in and have to dredge the material out. That is why we are expending this money at Burton. In the case of the work at Revelstoke, it was entered into years ago when there was navigation, and I think we are renewing some old works there. Generally speaking we are co-operating with the province, and there is a distinct advantage in so doing.


John Anderson Fraser: Would the minister lay this down as a general principle: Provided the owner was willing to do a certain amount of work he would supplement that by a Dominion grant?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, each individual case must be reviewed and considered on its merits.


Mr. ESLING:: Is not the work of dredging on the Columbia river south of Revelstoke a continuous matter? There is a very swift current there, and therefore I imagine the work must be practically continuous.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: My hon. friend will know that Revelstoke and Golden are in what is known as the railway belt. Fears ago the government did spend money at Revelstoke. We asked for an appropriation last year, but we did not disburse it. During the season our engineer reported that he thought the river would go so far and then change its course again. He thought that perhaps the danger point had been reached and we might avoid the expenditure. But we
are carrying the vote again this year. The question whether this money will be expended will depend upon the conditions found to exist next spring. Burton is on the Arrow lakes. My hon. friend, who is thoroughly familiar with the district, will know that at that point the channel narrows, and with the continued falling in of the banks we have a lot of material to dredge from year to year.
It is in the hope of preventing this material from going into the river and not having to carry on the more expensive sort of dredging that this protection is being given.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: Are the rivers upon which this expenditure is being made all navigable rivers?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, to a great extent. As no doubt my hon. friend knows, Arrow lakes is a wonderful waterway in the mountains, and boats travel up and down it day by day. At Revelstoke the navigation of the river is possible; it certainly was carried on years ago. I do not believe the river is being navigated at the present time, but there will probably be a revival of navigation on it.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: My
reason for asking the question is that there are rivers in the district in which I live that are called navigable rivers and a little expenditure would protect the properties on them. Is the minister making large expenditures on rivers like the river above Winnipeg where navigation is not carried on?


Robert Rogers: Yes, it is.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, to a very
great extent.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: I did not mean that particular river.


Robert Rogers: You are thinking of Belle river.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: But there are other
rivers which the minister has been providing money for which I do not think are navigable. However, if he says so that is all right.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: For the one at
Burton?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The contract was
let in October, 1925, to Mr. Green, of Nelson.
Supply-Pub lie Works


Henry Lumley Drayton: Oh, I see, that is another repeat, is it not? The same date. Is there any contract for the other Columbia river item?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, we have not
let the contract. No work has been done there.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Comox-Wharf repairs, (1,100.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Is that in the
same constituency?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is in the
constituency of Comox-Alberni.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That goes with Blubber bay?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract let, or has any contract been entered into?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is to provide for repairs. The work has not yet been contracted for.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will it be done by day work?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We shall probably call for tenders.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The money has been spent in the meantime: it was spent in 1925?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Oh, no.
_ Sir HENRY DRAYTON: No work done
in 1925? What was the hon. gentleman doing?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The vote we are asking for here is for wharf repairs at Comox. The details are as follows:
Six untreated approach bearing piles
at *iu	
(ISO	00Decking approach	
588	00
Repairing lower portion of sway
bracings	
213	28Contingencies	
110	72


Henry Lumley Drayton: I notice there
was a vote last year of $2,800. Has that money been preserved carefully, or was it spent last year during the elections on day labour? I shrewdly suspect it was.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: A contract for the renewal of piling was awarded 10 p.m. last year to Mr. Greenlees, Vancouver, the contract price being

TMr. J. H. King.]


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract let?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In May, 1925.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was earlier? Mr. KING (Kootenay): Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Those are two bull's eyes for the hon. gentleman who represents the constituency?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Courtenay river-dredging, $25,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: The member representing the constituency was after larger game that time, was he not? Is not this in the same constituency?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is in the constituency of Comox-Alberni, a very wonderful constituency.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It must be.


James Alexander Robb: Well represented.
Sir HENR4 DRAYTON: Oh, yes, it seems to be too well represented. Is there an existing contract for that? What is the last contract there?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was a contract made last year with the Arnett Dredging Towing -and Salvage Company for the removal of 37,932 cubic yards, at a cost of $6,448. It is proposed to extend the, work up the river. The expenditure under the new contract was $16,408. This is to provide for the deepening of the channel of Courtenay river from its mouth to the town of Courtenay, a distance of some 5,300 feet. In discussing this item last year I endeavoured to show the House that Courtenay is one of the principal farming districts on Vancouver Island. The Courtenay river runs through the town, and I found! when visiting there in 1924 a desire on the part of the citizens to have the river channel so improved that they could have a boat which was being used by their association for the transportation more particularly of their farm products to the larger markets of Powell River and Vancouver at any stage of the water, It is to improve the channel from the mouth of Courtenay river to the town of Courtenay that this appropriation is being made.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Was $6,000 spent last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, at the mouth of the river.

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Henry Lumley Drayton: How does it appear as if there were $17,500 spent last year? The vote last year was $35,500 and there is a revote of $18,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I did not go far enough; I was diverted from what I was saying. I was speaking of the dredging contract of the Arnett company of $6,400.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was that contract entered into?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: June 25, 1925. In addition to that $4,950 was spent for 45 days
by the dredging company for other work.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Under contract?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In extension of their contract.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When did they get that little extension?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Late in the season.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder about when they got the extra $5,000.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I have not the
date, but I imagine it would be on in the season.	*


Mr. NEILL:: After the election.


Henry Lumley Drayton: How does that statement compare with the records of the department?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There was further dredging involving the removal of 9,000 cubic yards of sand and gravel authorized on the 9th January, 1926.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is the hon. gentleman quite sure of that?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I had an idea that the government at that time said that they were not functioning. That was before that vote came along.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, they were.


Henry Lumley Drayton: So the government were functioning all the time?
Mr, KING (Kootenay): Yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What about
existing contracts?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They are all
cleaned up.


Henry Lumley Drayton: So we are going to have a new contract for $25,500?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Esquimalt-old dry dock-to provide for payment of repairs performed by Messrs. P. Lyall and Sons Construction Company, Limited, with interest thereon at 5 per cent, $5,262.84.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the idea of the interest there?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This amount had
been earned on October 1, 1924. The cost of the work was $4,895.67. The interest from October 1, 1924 to March 31, 1926 is $367.17 making a total of $5,262.84.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What was the reason for the delay in payment? As a general rule interest is never allowed on government payments, as my hon. friend knows.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think what happened was this: A ship was being built in the old dry dock in Victoria. She came into contact with the walls and there was certain damage. An arrangement was made with the P. Lyall Company to repair this damage, and this is an adjustment of that account.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Edgewood wharf-repairs, $4,200.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Where is Edge-wood?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is on the Arrow lakes in the constituency of West Kootenay. This is to renew the superstructure of the wharf.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That will be a new contract.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: New work.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It has not been let yet.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
False creek-dredging, $50,000.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: This is for the removal of 121,790 cubic yards of sand, silt, debris and gravel in False creek. False creek, as my hon. friend knows, is in the centre of the city of Vancouver and many industries are located on its banks. It is proposed by means of this dredging to give access to those manufacturing properties in order that there may be protection in case of fire and also that they may have ingress or egress from or to the harbour.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Have we still
the title, or is it in the hands of the provincial government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The harbour commission are in control, but I think there has been certain litigation that would indicate
Supply-Public Works

that the ownership is in the provincial government. The hon. member for Burrard, who is in his seat, would probably be more familiar with recent litigation and the decision of the court than I.


Mr. CLARK:: I do not think there is any litigation. I believe the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) could throw more light on the matter if he were in his seat. I think there has been a settlement as between the federal and provincial governments and the right to the harbour as regards False creek has been handed over to the province in return for other concessions.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Not handed over to the province.


John Arthur Clark: The industrial island is certainly handed over to the province.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: They are not collecting any rentals; those are collected by the harbour board and under their administration, I understand.


John Arthur Clark: The minister should certainly know the present position of the matter, but an agreement was announced by the Minister of Justice, I think, two years ago in this House. The harbour board may still be administering it on behalf of the provincial authorities.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think we have an arrangement with the provincial government whereby they continue to be in control and administer it and collect the rentals. The provincial government are not asserting their right.


John Arthur Clark: But the title is in the provincial government?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


John Arthur Clark: And it is administered by
the harbour board on their behalf?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fraser river-improvements, $50,000.
Mr. BARBER:: Has the minister included in this item 13,000 for protection work south of the ferry landing at Rosedale? This matter was taken up by the late member in 1924, and the federal government promised the expenditure, the provincial and municipal authorities to provide a similar amount. Is that provided for in this estimate?
[Mr. J. H. King.)


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Not in this estimate. There has been co-operation between the provincial government and the municipality, and I hope that parliament will later on supplement the Dominion contribution to the work.


Harry James Barber: The work is completed.
The provincial government have paid their portion and the municipality has borne its share of the cost as well as that of the Dominion government. There is a matter of $1,000 for a wing dam across the river at Agassiz, and I have a letter from the municipality of the district of Kent in which it is stated that the provincial government has agreed to grant $1,000 and the municipality another $1,000. They have appealed to the Dominion government for its contribution of an equal amount for the work across the river.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is no commitment on the part of the Dominion government, but we shall be glad to look into the matter and decide whether -we are involved and how much we should contribute.
Mr. ftARBER:	I understand that the attention of the department has been called to the fact that the Canadian Pacific Railway has dumped several trainloads of rock into the bed of the Fraser at Mission to strengthen a bridge at that point. This intereferes with navigation at certain seasons. What will be done to rectify it?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I cannot recall
having had the matter brought to my attention. I shall be glad to make inquiries.


Harry James Barber: The suggestion was made
that it might be better, instead of compelling the Canadian Pacific to remove the rocks, to negotiate with them with a view to having the bridge used for general traffic as well as for the purposes of the railway.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That suggestion
has been considered, but there is not much likelihood of the company agreeing to the proposal. They state that the bridge is not capable of bearing the added traffic.


William Garland McQuarrie: What is being done
with regard to Woodward slough?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The money is required to carry out the work which was under construction last year at Woodward slough to control the river at that point, and also to deepen the channel.

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Public Works


William Garland McQuarrie: What is the minimum depth of the channel at high tide between
New Westminster and the gulf?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Between twentyseven and twenty-nine feet.


William Garland McQuarrie: Is twenty-seven the
minimum?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: At what point?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: At Woodward
slough and near the entrance to the Fraser.


William Garland McQuarrie: What depth will be attained as a result of operations?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is difficult to
say, but we hope to improve the channel so that there will be a depth of twenty-nine or thirty feet. It might go more than that, but that is what we hope to reach at any rate.


William Garland McQuarrie: Your objective is thirty feet?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will there be a depth
of thirty feet to the gulf?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, if some other spot does not fill up.


William Garland McQuarrie: But assuming that the other points remain as they are now?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There will be thirty feet.


William Garland McQuarrie: These are the only
places where you do not reach that depth?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There are two
important points, one at the mouth of the river, which has been under control in the last two or three years, although there has been some difficulty this winter, and the other at King Edward cut. There is also a section near New Westminster where a wing-dam has been put in and where some money will have to be spent. At present there .is no serious difficulty there, but that part of the river is also under observation. There are these three points to be taken care of.


William Garland McQuarrie: Is the department doing anything in connection with these three places?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: They are not provided for in this vote.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This vote will
continue the work undertaken last year at Woodward slough, which is of importance, but other sections of the river are also under consideration.


William Garland McQuarrie: But it is not included in this vote?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


William Garland McQuarrie: Is the department
considering an extension to the jetty at the mouth of the Fraser river out to deep water?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: Will that be attended
to this year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I could not say.


William Garland McQuarrie: I believe the minister
has received representations from the harbour board and others in New Westminster, pointing out the necessity for immediate action in this connection. Are those representations receiving consideration?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: The minister knows,
of course, that there has been a very considerable increase in deep sea shipping at the port of New Westminster in recent years, and he knows also that great industrial development is taking place along the Fraser river.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: Has he any details in
regard to the shipping on the Fraser river,
in the last year, say?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There has been
an appreciable increase in the shipping from New Westminster down the Fraser river. Last year 150 seagoing vessels took cargo from Westminster. There was a large shipment of lumber from the town as well as an export of ores. In addition to that there was a movement of unfinished lumber products, box shooks, and other more or less manufactured lumber. There has been a marked increase over the last few years.


William Garland McQuarrie: In those 150 vessels
there were included a number of Canadian merchant marine boats?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes.


William Garland McQuarrie: The minister and the
department might show a lit.tle more expedition in connection with the work in the Fraser river channel. I appreciate the fact that the minister and his deputy and the chief engineer realize that the business al-
Supply-Public Works

ready being done and in prospect warrants substantial expenditures in order to provide a proper channel from New Westminster to the gulf. The minister knows that the improvement of this channel does not in any way operate against any other port in British Columbia. There are many miles of industrial sites available along the Fraser river which will have to be used in the very near future, and will be if the channel is made deep enough. At the present time the ships that come into New Westminster are not able to load to full capacity, and this of course prejudices the port to a certain extent. The minister is also aware that the Fraser river has been investigated by those interested in the shipment of grain through Pacific ports. The Saskatchewan Co-operative Company, the Grain Growers' Company, and other large elevator concerns have investigated the Fraser river with a view to locating elevators at or near New Westminster. This would effect a very important saving by the Canadian National Railways, amounting to about $13 a car, as against Burrard inlet at Vancouver. The people of New AVestminster are asking that this work be taken up and handled efficiently and speedily so that the opportunities which are now presenting themselves for the development of the port may be taken advantage of. I do wish to impress upon the minister the necessity of speeding up the work on the Fraser river and finishing the improvement at the mouth of the river, which all authorities agree will tend to increase the depth of water in the harbour and the channel.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Everyone who is familiar with shipping on the Fraser river realizes the advantage of the route. We have been advancing the project under the advice of the technical men of the department, and I am satisfied my hon. friend will agree that a marked improvement has taken place in the river, so much so that the shipping has quadrupled in the last three or four years. The Fraser river needs to be carefully studied before we undertake to control it. If we advance step by step and let the river assist in correcting the channel, I think we shall accomplish more than if we rush in and attempt extensive works involving large expenditures. I heartily endorse the policy of the engineering branch to proceed cautiously.


John Anderson Fraser: Is any part of that vote
for the upper Fraser river?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No. Any requirements for the upper Fraser river, unless mentioned especially, would come out of the general vote for harbours and rivers.
[ Mr. McQuarrie. ]


Henry Lumley Drayton: What about
contracts there?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This work will
be done under a new contract. The old contract has been closed out. The date of the old contract was October 25 last.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was nicely
before the election.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It would not
have any effect on the election.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Of course notl


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fraser river-Lower-operation of snag boat, $30,000.
Harry James Barber: The snag boat on the lower Fraser river operates as far as Chiliwack. I would point out to the minister the importance of keeping the river clear of snags and constructing wing dams. These dams do away with considerable dredging, and that is the reason I have urged in connection with the operation of the snag boat the construction also of a wing dam on the Agassiz side. There are already three on the Rose-dale side, and another wing dam on the other side will tend to keep the river in the centre, and thus save the considerable dredging expenses of previous years.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: This vote will be entirely for operating the snag boat. Wing dams would be another item.


William Garland McQuarrie: Is there anything on the government programme for the north arm of the Fraser river?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think we have in mind some dredging of the north arm by the departmental dredge. We will come to that shortly.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Fulford Harbour-Wharf repairs, $2,500.
Henry Lumley Drayton: That is a new vote, is it not?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It is in the
Nanaimo constituency. This is to renew a portion of the wharf approach, the superstructure and the freight shed. It is in the island district between Vancouver and Victoria.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is any work going on now?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.

Supply-Public Works
Harbours and rivers generally-repairs and improvements, $65,000.
Mr. STIRLING:: Does this include any
work on the Okanagan river?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The only work we have on the Okanagan river is the maintenance of the dam at Penticton. We spent some money there two years ago, and I do not think there is necessity for further expenditure this year, but if there is it will come out of this vote.


Grote Stirling: There is an item included in the estimates for the control dam?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think not.


Grote Stirling: Is the minister quite
satisfied that the control dam is in a stable condition?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I understand so.


John Anderson Fraser: Is anything included there for the clearing of the river north of Stuart lake, connecting Stuart lake with Tacla lake? There was some money spent on that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think two years ago.


John Anderson Fraser: Is there not a recommendation as to that?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think there is
a recommendation asking for further expenditures. There is no provision here.


John Anderson Fraser: What about Stuart lake
wharf?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think that was completed last year.


John Anderson Fraser: That was Fraser lake. I
am speaking of Stuart lake wharf.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, there is no
item after that.	.


John Anderson Fraser: You have a requisition for that.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I was thinking
of Fraser lake. I think that was completed last year.	.


John Anderson Fraser: Fraser lake wharf was
completed and this is for a similar wharf at Stuart lake further north.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I will make inquiry.


Mr. TOLMIE:: Is a portion of this money to be expended in Victoria harbour?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, I think some work is to be done in Victoria harbour from our dredging vote or special vote.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: Nothing about any work
on Hospital Rock?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: We have it under consideration. It is not in the main estimates.


Simon Fraser Tolmie: I might call attention to
the fact that during a foggy day last year one of the big steamers got stuck on that rock.


Harry James Barber: Is there anything in the
vote in reference to the Coquitlam river? You will remember that this was taken up with the department by the board of trade of Coquitlam in February, 1925. I have a resolution from the board of trade which reads a4 follows:
Copy of a resolution passed by the Port Coquitlam Board of Trade at a meeting held on February 27, 1925.
Whereas the Coquitlam river is a very grave menace in its present state, and whereas the said river has washed away the homes and property of some of our citizens, and whereas the said river is constantly overflowing its banks and spreading over our city, and whereas numerous log jams and bars have formed in the river bed causing the river to keep changing its course;
Be it resolved that this Board of Trade earnestly request the Dominion Government to take such measures as may be necessary to confine the said river to its own channel.
This is a matter I would like to press, and I hope the department has it under consideration. .


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am familiar
with the Coquitlam river. In 1923-24, in cooperation with the provincial government, we did some work there. I have not been convinced that the Dominion government should spend further money at that point. True, they had bad floods and overflowing of the river some years ago, but I understand the work done in 1923 and 1924 has given great relief, and there has not been any serious damage since.


John Anderson Fraser: I understand you have a
vote of $25,000 for the upper Peace river, from Hudson Hope up Peace river. I think the engineer reported that there was to be a vote of that amount included in the estimate.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not find it
here.


John Anderson Fraser: What is the situation there in regard to the improvement of the Peace
river?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That country is being opened up. Pioneers are going in, and there have been suggestions that we should
Supply-Public Works

provide accommodation that they may be able to get in and out of the district. But there is nothing in these estimates relating to that.


John Anderson Fraser: The minister is aware that there is a coal mine operating in there and shipping coal down the river. The capacity of the mine at the present time is 100 tons per day, and during the season of navigation the market is entirely down the river. The river is open for navigation for some 300 miles, except for 15 miles, and I think there are only a few points where work will be required to make the river navigable for the whole distance. A substantial quantity of coal is used by the inhabitants in the district along the river. I understand the matter has been under consideration for the last three years, and promises have been made that attention would be given to it. The people there are anticipating a vote, an appropriation, which I thought would be included in this item. Will the minister put it in the sup-plementaries, or at least give it further consideration?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I shall be glad to give it consideration. When the hon. member spoke of it first I did not think he was referring to Hudson Hope. I am not sure that we have had any direct representations regarding the matter.


John Anderson Fraser: The minister has had a
report from Mr. Doncaster.


Harry James Barber: Another matter taken up with the department some time ago, in regard to which I do not see provision in the estimate, is in relation to the Minnekahda wharf on the Pitt river. This wharf was constructed by the Dominion government and has been repaired from time to time by the municipality. The reason given by the government for not repairing it now is that the municipality during each season unloaded a certain amount of road material there. I believe the department will reconsider their decision not to repair. The wharf is used by a large number of farmers and people of the other districts who do not pay taxes in that municipality, therefore it is unfair to ask the municipality to bear the full cost. This is only a very small amount. It requires some caps and joists in the centre of the wharf where they have been broken. I appeal to the minister to consider this and place an amount in supplementary estimates. As I have said, only a few hundred dollars would be required. Considering the fact that the municipality have from year to year repaired 
the planking and other parts of the wharf, they thought it would not be out of the way to ask the Dominion government to replace the piles and make the necessary repairs.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think the matter is receiving attention. There is no doubt that the municipality, in the use of the wharf, has overloaded it and done certain damage. The suggestion has been made, I believe, that if the wharf was repaired there should be certain co-operation in the matter.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Port Clements-wharf repairs, $3,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Did we not do work there last year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes, there was a vote there last year of $6,600 and $6,655 was expended.


Henry Lumley Drayton: When was the contract made?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: August 20, 1925.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Saaniohton-renewal of float and wharf repairs,
Henry Lumley Drayton: In connection
with all the items on the rest of the page, no work was done?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I do not think so. There may have been at Saanichton.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The estimate
does not show anything.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: No, there was
nothing.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Nothing in connection with the others, except a report and a speech by the hon. member.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was reported on.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Henry Lumley Drayton: What about the appropriations not required for 1926-27?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I will hand them to Hansard for insertion:
List of Appropriations not required for 1926-27
Appropriation
Harbours and Rivers-British Columbia-
Bamfield East-reconstruction of wharf.. .. $ 1,650
Burgoyne Bay-wharf repairs	 1,250
Campbell River-wharf repairs	 5,000
Celista-wharf	 3,600
Clayoquot-wharf repairs	 5,200

Supply-Public Works
Harbours and Rivers, British Columbia.-Con. Crawford Bay-reconstruction of float and
shed	 2,250
Deer Park-wharf repairs	 2,200
Denman Island-landing slip	 1,000
False Bay-Lasqueti Island-wharf	 5,600
Fraser Lake-wharf to complete	 300
Fraser River-improvements to	jetty	 34,000
Gower Point-float	 2,100
Greta-wharf reconstruction	 2,500
Haney-wharf reconstruction	 7,800
Hope Bay-wharf repairs	 2,800
Kaleden-wharf reconstruction	 4,100
Kildonan-float	 1,750
Kincolith-wharf improvements	 1,200
Marmot Bay-float	 2,700
Mayne Island-wharf repairs and improvements	   4,200
Mission-wharf reconstruction	 5,200
Naramata-wharf extension	 2,700
New Massett-Renewal of float	 1,350
Okanagan Lake and River-improvements ..	2,000
Okanagan Control-dam maintenance and
operation	 1,500
Oona River-float	 2,000
Pitt Lake-wharf reconstruction	 3,000
Po-pe's Landing, Pender Harbour-reconstruction of float	 1,200
Port Essington-improvements to float	 1,200
Port Renfrew-In full and final settlement of
claim of Godman estate, etc	 2,000
Queen Charlotte City-repairs	to float.. ..	1,200
Riondel-wharf	 7,600
Royston-wharf repairs and improvements. 2,100 Say ward-wharf replacement to complete
contract	 6,600
Shushartie Bay-repairs to float	 1,400
Skidegate-wharf repairs	 2,400
Sooke-wharf repairs	 4,500
Sunny brae-wharf	 7,500
Ucluelet-West-float	 1,350
Vancouver, Stanley Park-Foreshore protection	 8,000
Westibank-reconstruction of and improvements to warf	 8,500
White Rock-wharf repairs	 1,200
William Head Quarantine Station-repairs to wharves	 3,500


William Duff: The next item is:
Harbours and rivers generally, $30,000.


John Anderson Fraser: Would the minister give a list of the items under harbours and rivers generally?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: That is not known yet. These are small items that come up from time to time. This is the item we discussed this afternoon. It is to take care of unforeseen expenditures arising during the present year, ranging from two or three hundred dollars up to two thousand dollars. During the season the engineer may report that a work at Ladner, for instance, requires an expenditure of five or six thousand dollars. That would be met out of this vote.


John Anderson Fraser: There is a situation at the city of Prince George in connection with the
Nechacco river in regard to which I think the minister has a certain amount of information. Is he in a position to say whether favourable consideration will be given to an expenditure at that point?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In connection with the flooding of the river banks at Prince George, there have been requests made to the Public Works department, but I think if my hon. friend will investigate he will find that this is largely a railway matter. Railway lands are involved as well as private property, and as yet we have not seen our way clear to undertake work at that point.


Peter McGibbon: There has been a request made by the navigation companies on the Muskoka lakes for repair of the breakwater at Bracebridge, which has got badly out of repair. Can the minister say whether those repairs will be made this year?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think that is
being considered.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
Robert Rogers: It is getting late, and I think the minister is tired, as we all are. I am sure the Minister of Finance is very anxious to get home, he looks so tired. We have done a good day's work, and I think we can promise the minister that we will do a better day's work to-morrow if he would consent to the committee rising now.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If it is the desire of the committee, I will move that we rise and report progress.


Mr. MACDONALD (Kings):: I was not
present when the items for Prince Edward Island were being passed a few nights ago, and I would like to ask the minister now with respect to the wharf at Georgetown in that province. Strong representations have been made by the Potato Growers' Association at Georgetown with regard to the necessity of frost proofing the warehouse there. This is not an ordinary expenditure. It is an expenditure that would appeal to the people of Prince Edward Island as a whole. Georgetown is the one late port for Prince Edward Island; it is more valuable than any other port for late shipping. The warehouse has been rebuilt at considerable expense during the past two or three years, but it is of very little value, comparatively speaking, unless it is frost proofed. The reason for that is that the growing of seed potatoes is becoming quite a large industry in Prince Edward Island, and a great many of these potatoes go by steamer to the southern United States, where they are re-
Supply -Public Works

quired about the month of January. If we had that warehouse frost proofed it would be possible to load the potatoes on the steamers at Georgetown from two to four weeks later than at any other port in the province. They could go late in December to the southern states and be distributed direct to the growers for seed, thereby saving a great deal of money in the handling. This is a matter of very great importance to the province, and I would ask the minister if he has considered it, and whether there will be an item in the supplementary estimates this year for that purpose.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I am familiar with the situation at Georgetown. The government have reconditioned and renewed a very good wharf at that point, and have improved the shed accommodation. It is true that we have not made that shed frost proof, as I think it should be, for the accommodation of the farmers in the handling of their potatoes, but I would point out that at the present time the railway is on the narrow gauge. We understand that the railway is changing to the broad gauge, and once that is accomplished I think we will be justified in spending some money on a potato warehouse at Georgetown. But until that is done I do not think we would.


John Alexander (1874-1948) Macdonald: That standardization work is going on, and the information we have now is that it will be completed by about September this year. So that if the warehouse is to be made available for shipping this season it would be necessary to have an item in the supplementary estimates this year so that the work could be gone on with now.
There is just one other matter to which I wish to refer, and that is what is known as Lewis point pier at Cardigan. It is the only public wharf in that harbour. Nothing has been done to it for eight or ten years and it has got now into such a state that it is of no value for shipping. There are three private wharves there, but their owners are not keeping them up to any great extent. It is important that the government should consider wharf improvement at that point. This wharf has got into such a bad state of disrepair that it would cost a lot of money to repair it, and my suggestion would be that one of the other private wharves, which are better situated, could be bought Very cheaply, and the Lewis point pier might be removed. One of these other wharves could be obtained for about four or five thousand dollars, possibly less, and it would give all the accommodation required.

I have no doubt that the minister has a report from his engineer on this matter, and I would urge that if at all possible some item be put in the estimates for repairing the present wharf or acquiring one of the others.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Robb the House adjourned at 10.55 p.m.
Friday, June 18, 1926.