1926-03-23

EASTER ADJOURNMENT

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister) moved:: When this House adjourns on Friday March 26th instant, it stand adjourned until Tuesday April 6th next.
He said: Before the motion is put, may I say to hon. members of the House that the government has no intention of pressing this motion, unless it meets with approval on the part of hon. members. The motion has been made because the government has reason to believe that to most of the members it would be a convenience to have an adjoum-

ment of ten days, which we would have if this motion carries, rather than to be obliged to come back for two days and one-half during that period of time, thereby breaking the adjournment of ten continuous days which would otherwise be possible. The custom has been to adjourn on the Wednesday afternoon before Easter, the House sitting for half a day on Wednesday, and then adjourning until the following Tuesday. I have had occasion to look up the record and I find that in the years 1917 to 1925 the practice has been to adjourn on the Wednesday. Monday and Tuesday are full days and Wednesday half a day. If this motion does not carry, members will be obliged to come back for two days and a half the following week. If the motion carries it will be possible for hon. members to leave the city on Friday night of this week and remain away until Tuesday of the week after next. The government, in view of what has been communicated to its members, has thought that, with that feature drawn to the attention of hon. members, the motion would probably meet with general approval. However, the purpose of presenting the motion at the moment is rather to call forth an expression of the views of hon. members, and if the views of hon. members appear to be against the motion, I would ask that it stand.


Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: As far as I am individually concerned, and as far as my own convenience goes, the motion would suit me very well, but the members on this side of the House, especially those from the far west and far east, are, if I may be permitted to speak their minds as indicated to me, strongly against this motion. Their reasons are chiefly their anxiety to get on with the business of the session, and added to that there is the fact that the business of the House seems to be a joke to hon. members opposite. There is also the fact that we have just had quite a long recess of about ten or eleven days during which most of the members, I think, availed themselves of the opportunity of returning home, and naturally they do not feel like inviting another opportunity to go back home, spending most of the time, as is necessary, on the way. For these two reasons, the feeling on this side of the House would be against the motion, and I would suggest that, if it is not dropped, it stand, until perhaps a further conference could be had.


Mr. ROBERT FORKE (Brandon):: Personally I would prefer to have the adjournment. It seems to me that out of the ten days there would be only two and1 one-half

Easter Adjournment
days during which we could really be doing any work in the House. I would like to have gone west. If there is any strenuous opposition to the longer adjournment, I am quite willing to bow to the will of the majority, but we would only lose two and one-half working days out of the ten days. The adjournment would be broken by Saturday and Sunday, the legal holidays intervening, and it would 'be only two and one-half days longer than the regular adjournment. During that period there are, of course, five legal holidays. It seems to me it would be to the convenience of all hon. members to have the adjournment for ten days. I think the government have had adjournment enough. They have had two weeks. I have had to remain in Ottawa as have a great many other hon. members. At the same time if there is anything to be gained by it I would be in favour of the longer adjournment. Seeing that only two and one-half days during which we could do any business would be lost, I think hon. members would be well advised to vote for the ten day adjournment. I am quite willing to stay here or I am quite willing to go home.


Mr. L. J. LADNER (Vancouver South):: This is an occasion when I wish to say a word or two. I was not able to return to Vancouver during the previous adjournment. I think the public at large and members generally are anxious to get on with the business of the country, for there is a good deal to be done. I myself have a copyright bill which I should like to proceed with and I would urge upon the government the wisdom, even if we have only two and a half days, to let us use all our time in getting some work done. It might mean some personal inconvenience to hon. gentlemen who would like to return to their homes, but that should not stand in the way of public business.
Mr. HARRY J. BARBER (Fraser Valley): As one who took advantage of the last adjournment I may say that I spent ten days in travelling, having only two days at home. To hon. gentlemen in the far west and east who could not avail themselves of the adjournment it would mean much inconvenience: they would have to remain in Ottawa until the re-assembling of parliament. I think that those hon. members from Ontario and Quebec, who have easy access to their homes, should have some consideration for others who come from a distance. We are anxious to proceed with the business of the country, and we hope to make the session as short as possible. We are looking forward to the other end of the session, and we would
rather work now. I for one am very much opposed to a further adjournment.


Mr. MURRAY MacLAREN (St. John-Albert):: The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) has asked for an expression of opinion regarding the duration of the adjournment at Easter. My right hon. leader (Mr. Meighen) has represented the views held by many hon. members sitting on this side of the House, and personally I would wish to emphasize this point, that this is a longer Easter vacation than usual. Let us bear in mind the previous adjournment of eleven or twelve days which we had very recently. In the light of that vacation I submit that the proposed adjournment should be as short as possible, rather than one which will be longer than any we have had in the last five or six years.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: As I intimated a moment ago, it is not the desire of the government to press the motion at all. If I act on the suggestion which has been made to allow it to stand until Thursday, the whips might confer among themselves in the meantime. Let me make it clear that the government is as anxious as any hon. member on the opposite side to proceed with the business of parliament, but we have felt that in matters relating to the procedure of the House there may be occasions when mutual accommodation would also help to expedite business. As to what my hon. friend has just said about the proposed adjournment being longer than usual at Easter, he will recall that parliament assembled this year earlier than is customary. The House met early in the month of January, and for that reason the period of time during which hon. members have already been away from their homes is longer than is usual at Easter. However, it is a matter of meeting the convenience of the majority of members.


Mr. W. A. BOYS (North Simcoe):: Speaking from the standpoint of the convenience of members, it seems to me that, whatever is going to be done, the sooner we know what is decided upon, the better, in order that we may be enabled to make our arrangements. If the Prime Minister would permit me to interview the whips of the Liberal and Progressive parties this afternoon, we might come to some understanding and we could know the decision to-night. It would inconvenience hon. members greatly to be obliged to wait until Thursday or Friday to know what the government intended doing.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I entirely agree with that suggestion.
Privilege-Mr. Church


Mr. SPEAKER:: Is it understood that the motion stands, to be considered again later in the day?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If it is possible for the government to make an announcement to-night, the motion can be formally put at the next sitting of the House.
Motion stands.



PRIVILEGE-MR. CHURCH

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. T. L CHURCH (Toronto Northwest) :: I rise to a question of privilege. Last night, at the conclusion of the speech of the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa), I rose to call the attention of the House to a certain statement that had been made with reference to myself earlier in the day by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), in which he misquoted a speech which I had delivered in Toronto. The hon. member referred to certain remarks of mine as rightly quoted by the non. the Solicitor General (Mr. Cannon) at page 67 of Hansard of the present session, and further put into my mouth these words:
Had we had autonomy we should not have entered the war. I
I never used these words. I have nothing to retract from what I said on that occasion but inasmuch as the hon. member omitted the qualifying text of my speech I desire to quote rather extensively from a report of it. Parenthetically, I may observe, Mr. Speaker, that I would not have risen on this occasion were it not that I was prevented last night from making the explanation when I had a perfect right to do so in view of the fact that I had the floor beyond any dispute. The hon. member for Labelle had moved an amendment which was not seconded, and which it appears was not in proper shape, and he had gone to the clerk's table to have it redrafted as I presume and went around looking for a seconder. I therefore had the floor and I was prepared to make the present explanation then. What the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre said was not altogether correct. He quoted only one sentence and at that not as to the text. I should like to read the following extract from the speech I gave at Toronto in order to make my position clear. I quote:
I am opposed to separatism, changing Canada's status and autonomy. We are proud that Canada is an integral part of the greatest empire the world has ever known. The war has not changed Canada's status. What She has done in the past thirty-five years she has done of her own free will and voluntarily 
Canadians have good reason to know that the national status of Canada was a good enough status for more than 400,000 Canadian soldiers to fight for. Canada's present national status in 1914 was a good enough national status for over 50,000 Canadians to die for. That status was good enough for fighting Canadians like the Canadians of St. Julien, The Orchard, Cour-cellette, Vimy Ridge, Passchendaele and many another field of battle. That status should be good enough for talking Canadians and writing Canadians. The British Empire and the British navy are our friends. The socialists who would wreck the British Empire and the pacifist who would weaken the British navy are our enemies.
I stand on the platform of our late beloved leader, Sir John A. Macdonald, when he said: A British subject I was born, a British subject I will die and I will never see General Election become commander-in-chief of the British forces or take the place of the British fleet to protect our shores. I have more faith in the sentiment expressed by the writer of "Ye mariners of England" and all it stands for than I have in the Monroe doctrine, the League of Nations, or any other similar debating society to safeguard Canada's shores in the future should trouble ever come again, which God forbid.
Canada is not going to be talked out of the British empire, if it could be done, the hon. member from
Labelle and the two gentlemen who call themselves the so called labour party-the whole party and nothing but the party would have accomplished this feat long ago. They are but a vest pocket edition of J. Ramsay MacDonald and his ideals. "Something has been said about holding elections and going to the country for endorsation before sending troops from Canada to participate in Britain's wars. So far as the Toronto sixteen regiments and units are concerned, no legislation nor no election nor no conscription act will be necessary. They will do their duty for the Empire as each separate exigency occurs the same as they have always done in the past."
This and the quotation appearing at page 67 of Hansard is what I said. I am glad to have had this opportunity of explaining my position in the matter.


Hewitt Bostock: In justice to the hon.
member, I may say that I did see him rise last night to address the Chair, but he did so at a moment of suspense. The hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa) had just concluded his speech with a motion which was improperly drafted, and through the courtesy of the House I allowed him some time in which to have his amendment correctly worded. For that reason I intimated to the hon. member for Toronto Northwest that the hon. member for Labelle still had the floor; otherwise I should have been only too pleased to let him interject his explanation at that moment.



TRANSFER OF PRISONERS

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. J. W. EDWARDS (Frontenac-Adding-ton):: Is it the intention to transfer some
eighty prisoners from Portsmouth to Stoney Mountain penitentiary? If so, will the

Interim Supply Bill
prisoners be ticketed, as on a former occasion, through the Canadian National Railways office in '.Ottawa, or will the minister issue instructions that the prisoners be ticketed through the Hanley ticket agency of the Canadian National Railways at Kingston, where the business originates, where the entraining takes place, and where the agent of the Canadian National Railways can and must give his personal supervision to the details of the work?


Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: I will make the necessary inquiry
and give the information to my hon. friend to-morrow.



LOCARNO TREATY

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. PETER MoGIBBON (Muskoka-Ontario):	Mr. Speaker, I Should like to ask
the Prime Minister about what time the House will have the privilege of discussing the Locarno treaty; also, if he could let us know what the government's attitude is towards it.
William Lyon Mackenzie King: Mr. Speaker, if it is the
desire of hon. members to have an early opportunity to discuss the treaty, it can be arranged. But I think I am correct in saying that in any event the Locarno agreement does not go into effect until after Germany is admitted to the League of Nations; it is now quite apparent that this will not take place until after September, so any immediate haste for discussion of the agreement is, I imagine, removed. However, if hon. members wish to have an early date set for its discussion, the government will be very pleased to make the necessary arrangements immediately after the Easter recess. As to the government's- attitude regarding the treaty, it will be expressed at that time, if so desired.



INTERIM SUPPLY BILL

Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):: Mr. Speaker, I should like to have the usual unanimous consent to go into supply in order to put through the Interim Supply Bill. We are now approaching the end of the fiscal year. I notice my hon. friend from West York (Sir Henry Drayton) is not in his seat. I had a conversation with him, and while he was not prepared to consent to put through the customary supply 'bill of one-sixth, he did say that he would offer no objection to one-twelfth.


Arthur Meighen: I understand that the
hon. member for West York has agreed to raise no objection to a vote of one-twelfth of the entire supply .applicable to each item. Of course, it is passed on the usual understanding that there is no commitment to any single vote or to the principle of any vote.


James Alexander Robb: Quite so.



COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROBB moved that the House go into committee of Supply.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Duff in the chair.
James Alexander Robb: Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $15,934,291.08, being one-twelfth of the amount of each of the several items to be voted as set forth in the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1927, laid before the House of Commons at the ipresent session of parliament. be granted to His Majesty, on account for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1927.


Arthur Meighen: Should there be an exception of the items already voted in toto?


James Alexander Robb: No, this is the customarj
practice.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.



COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[Stage Direction]
Mr. ROBB moved that the House go into committee of Ways and Means.
Motion agreed to and the House went into committee, Mr. Duff in the chair.
['I only wanted to bring this to the attention of the minister.\nItem stands.\nProgress reported.\nOn motion of Mr. Robb the House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.\nWednesday, March 24, 1926']
James Alexander Robb: Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1927, the sum of $15,934,291.06 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.
Resolution reported read the second time, and concurred in. Mr. Roibb thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 14 for granting to His Majesty a certain sum of money for the public service for the financial year ending March the 31st, 1927.
Motion agreed to and bill read the first and second time.
['Resolved that towards making good the supply granted to His Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1927, the sum of $15,934,291.06 be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada.']
Hewitt Bostock: When shall the House
go into committee on the bill?


James Alexander Robb: Is my right hon. friend willing that we should proceed in committee?


Arthur Meighen: The member for West
York is not here.


Hewitt Bostock: Next sitting of the House.

Canada-West Indies Agreement


Arthur Meighen: I do not think the right to sit again to-day was reserved. Perhaps it was an oversight.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: It was understood that, later in the day we would go on with supply.


Arthur Meighen: Yes, but the right to
sit this day?


Hewitt Bostock: Yes, I said so.



[Stage Direction]
The House resumed from March 10 consideration in committee of the resolution of Hon. Mr. Robb respecting the Canada-West Indies trade agreement, Mr. Duff in the chair.
Mr. CAHAN:: As the agreement in question is of very considerable interest to the city of Montreal, whose board of trade have taken a great deal of pains to consider that matter, I would like to place before the committee one or two considerations. In dealing with a trade convention with the West India islands, I am not speaking without some knowledge and experience of the conditions there. I have lived in British Guiana on several occasions for many months at a time; I have been on the islands of Trinidad and Tobago on several occasions for months at a time, and I have also been to a number of the other islands, for the purpose of investigating financial and trade conditions and commercial possibilities there for certain clients. Therefore, I personally feel disposed to make every reasonable concession on the part of Canada in order to improve our trade relations with those people, colonies of Great Britain, who are like ourselves under the British crown. Personally I do not think this convention will secure for Canada a very much larger trade with the West Indies than we have enjoyed under the convention of June 1920. Nevertheless, as the government have entered into that convention, there are strong considerations why we should approve of it if it is at all possible, in the public interest, to do so.
It seems to me that at this stage the government are bound, before we are called upon to approve of that convention, to state very clearly to the House what it will cost Canada. In respect of the convention of June 1920, which called for services both to the eastern and to the western groups of islands, we are told by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) that it was found impossible for Canada to

live up to that agreement. Now when a new convention is negotiated we should know definitely whether Canada can live up to this second substituted agreement, and what it will cost the treasury of Canada if we do live up to it.
In respect of the first convention of 1920 the government must have on file complete statements of what the cost of that service would have been if it had been carried out as originally intended. This House should be fully informed of what that cost would have been; how high the cost was, and what were the insuperable difficulties in the way of the government carrying it out since they came into office in 1921. We agreed under the 1920 convention to give to the eastern group of islands, a steamship service consisting of a weekly mail, passenger and freight service, and we gave instead a fortnightly mail, passenger and freight service by subsidizing the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company. On each alternate week we gave a service restricted to freight through the medium of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine. As to the western group, we agreed to give a fortnightly freight, mail and passenger service to the Bahamas, Jamaica and British Honduras. We did furnish a service every third instead of every second week, and provided no cold storage, as had been in contemplation. We now agree to give not a service once every three weeks, but a fortnightly passenger, mail and freight service consisting of larger and faster steamships, and therefore a more expensive service by far than was proposed in 1920. We also now propose to give on alternative weeks a fortnightly freight service with cold storage, with a subsidiary line for freight sailing from Jamaica to Honduras every two weeks. Therefore there is no doubt in my mind that the proposed service to the western group of islands under the convention now before the committee will prove a far more expensive service than that proposed in 1920, which the government, in the interests of the country, found it impossible to carry out.


Arthur Meighen: Is there not also this
difference, which I think should be interjected, that the cold storage service guaranteed in 1920 was only as business warranted, whereas now it is absolute?


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Quite so. The service
from 1921 to 1925, performed to the extent which I have noted, has, I understand, proved very unprofitable indeed, and this is true with respect to the present time and recent months. I am informed, and I think quite reliably in-

Canada-West Indies Agreement
formed, that only 40 per cent or 50 per cent of the cargo space of the steamships employed at these infrequent intervals has been taken up. Therefore the new service which is proposed depends to a large extent, it seems to me, upon the successful prosecution of the banana trade with Jamaica.
When this convention was being negotiated the council of the Montreal Board1 of Trade wrote a letter, through their secretary, to the then Minister of Trade and Commerce, Hon. Thomas A. Low, in which they set out that all the people in Canada engaged in commerce are very desirous of having improved reciprocal trade relationships with the West Indies. But they state, under date of June 16, 1925::
. With regard to the suggestion that the Canadian government should build new ships for the West Indies service, the council would strongly oppose any such scheme at the present time, believing that the existing trade conditions and the enormous burden of debt under which Canada is suffering, together with its already serious transportation problems, render exceedingly ill-advised the expenditure of any considerable sum of public money on a project, the profits from which are at least problematical.
I might be allowed to say, with all deference to the hon. member for North Bruce (Mr. Malcolm), who discussed this question the other day, that undoubtedly the West Indies were represented by very able and experienced men. I have had many years experience with the officials of those governments, and a few years ago, but not now, I knew nearly every prominent merchant in those islands. They are very able and experienced men, and they came to that convention, undoubtedly, knowing exactly what they wished to obtain, and they were dealing with men who very largely were ignorant of the conditions in those islands, and not sufficiently informed, I think, to deal with the matter so as to protect to the utmost possible extent the interests of the treasury of Canada. But, we are told by the hon. member for North Bruce, the representatives of the government acted very largely upon the advice of those West Indian representatives, and in reading the report of those negotiations I find that those gentlemen from the West Indies dealt very frankly with the representatives of the government, and they did not pretend that any very large increase in the exportations of Canada to the West Indies was likely to be obtained under the convention which they then .proposed. However, after this latter convention was negotiated, the council of the Montreal Board of Trade passed this resolution, which I understand was also brought to the notice of the government. I quote: The council regrets that the negotiators of the agreement did not accept its suggestions concerning the
14011-115$
steamship services, and fears that the heavy commitments on this account may provoke such opposition as to render it impossible for parliament to sanction an agreement which includes provisions of some value to the trade between this country and those other portions of the empire which are parties to it.
More recently I am informed that the board of trade, under date of March 3rd, received from its own sub-committee which was investigating the prospects of trade under this new agreement a report, in which it is stated:
That, in respect of the commitments on account of steamship services, the agreement far exceeds the recommendations made by your predecessor-
That is the predecessor committee of the board of trade:
-and in the opinion of your committee it is unlikely that the increased trade which will result from the very considerable extension of the mutual preferences provided by the agreement will, at any rate for some years, warrant the heavy cost of the in ip roved steamship services proposed;
That, notwithstanding the financial burden undertaken by Canada as referred to in the foregoing paragraph, your committee is strongly of opinion that, considering the serious effects upon the West Indies and other colonies concerned and upon the trade relations of the empire, of a failure on the part of Canada to ratify the agreement negotiated in good faith by the duly accredited representatives of all the parties thereto, the said agreement should be approved by parliament without delay;
That, in thus urging the approval of the agreement, your committee does not recede from its former objection to the building of vessels by the Canadian government, being still unalterably opposed to any extension of government ownership or operation of steamships, but it hopes that the provision of the additional steamship services necessary may be secured by means of subsidies to private lines, thus minimizing the burden on the heavily taxed citizens of Canada.
Mr. Chairman, I do not concede personally that parliament is bound to ratify this convention simiply because the representatives of the West India islands have in good faith negotiated the convention, always subject to the approval of their own councils and legislatures and subject to the approval of the Canadian parliament, but, on the other hand, I do admit that the government of Canada having negotiated the convention, no slight objection on the part either of this House or of the country should defeat the confirmation and approval of that treaty if the costs of the services to be provided are at all commensurate with the advantages which Canada would receive by putting the treaty and the auxiliary steamship services into operation during the term of the treaty, the next twelve years.
I quite appreciate that dealing with the representative men of the West Indies, it is desirable that we should support the government's action in negotiating the treaty if it is at all practicable for us to do so. becaus?

Canada-West Indies Agreement
on the part of Canada I personally would rather see some financial sacrifice than to disclose to them by the vote of this committee and of this House that the government which negotiated this treaty did it through incompetent officers andi representatives, and negotiated it without having first carefully ascertained what the cost would be to the public treasury of Canada.
On the 8th of March of the present year the council of the Montreal Board of Trade placed their final views before the right hon. leader of this government in a letter written by the secretary of the board, in which they say:
I have the honour to communicate the views of the council of this board on the question of the ratification by the Canadian parliament of the Canada-West Indies Trade Agreement, 1925, as follows:
On 16th June, 1925, just prior to the meeting of representatives of the Dominion and of the West Indies and other colonies interested, at which the agreement was drawn up, the council of this board submitted to the hon. the Minister of Trade and Commerce certain recommendations with regard to provisions which in its opinion should be embodied in that agreement. These recommendations included one to the effect that this country should go to the utmost possible limit in the granting of reductions in its tariff in favour of the West Indies, as well as very definite suggestions as to the necessity of keeping the expenditure on steamship services at the lowest possible minimum, and above all the council voiced its strong opposition to any proposal that the Canadian government should build new ships for this service, pointing out that the enormous burden c<f debt under which Canada is now suffering, together with its already serious transportation problems, render exceedingly ill-advised the expenditure of any considerable sum of public money on such a project.
To the great regret of the council the agreement as negotiated involves very heavy commitments on account cf steamship services.
While still unalterably opposed to any extension of government ownership or operation of steamships, the council nevertheless believes that failure on the part of Canada to ratify the West Indies agreement, negotiated in good faith by the duly accredited representatives of all the part es thereto, and since ratified by all those parties with the exception of this Dominion, would have the most serious consequences, and it therefore urges the ratification of the agreement by parliament without, delay.
The council cannot refrain from expressing the hope that the government may find it possible to secure the necessary additional steamship services by means of subsidies to private lines, rather than by launching into an expensive programme of shipbuilding, believing that thereby the additions to the financial burden on the already heavily taxed citizens of this Dominion would be minimized.
Now it is all very well for the council of the Montreal Board of Trade to submit the opinion that under the circumstances, in order to maintain the good reputation of the government of Canada with those with whom it negotiated this convention, we should endorse the expenditure of untold thousands, yes of millions, without having before it definite details as to that cost. Although I

concede to no man, to no member of this committee, a stronger desire to maintain friendly and profitable commercial relations with the West India islands, yet I do not feel that as a representative, even of the city of Montreal, I should vote blindly in favour of the approval and confirmation of this later convention, unless we have from the Minister of Finance, or from the Prime Minister, or from some other of his ministry-the Minister of Trade and Commerce for instance- a clear and precise statement of what in their opinion, backed up by the best information which they can obtain, the carrying out of this convention will cost the country for the next twelve years. I have seen, and have at hand, a report of a committee of the Board of Trade of Halifax in reference to this matter. [DOT] I know well the gentlemen who are on that committee. I know that they are competent business men who have had a large and varied experience in steamship matters, and especially in the matter of trade with the West India islands. Their good faith in making the calculation which they do cannot be questioned by anyone in view of their standing in the commercial community, and they estimate that the capital expenditure alone upon this steamship service may reach a total of $9,550,000 if the government undertakes to buy the ships and to operate them as a part of its mercantile marine. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that it is due to this committee, and to the House, and to the country, that the government should give us a complete statement of its policy

whether it intends to enter upon this large capital expenditure, or whether it intends to subsidize independent steamship companies to carry out these services. I quite appreciate the remark made by the hon. Minister of Finance the other day, that in view of the fact that tenders have been asked for it would be inexpedient on the part of the government to make an announcement as to what its definite policy was, or as to what the proposed cost of the services would be, until such time as these tenders may be received. But, Mr. Chairman, the delay in asking for tenders in respect of a convention made in June, 1925, is not due to any member on this side of the House. It is due to the undoubted fact that the members of the government have been much engaged since June, 1928, in their political propaganda leading up to the general elections of October 29, last, and since that day they have been deprived of their political and intellectual head and of his

Canada-West Indies Agreement
direction in the matter. We are not responsible for that, and before you ask us, as intelligent and honest members of this committee and of this House, to approve of a convention which may entail this enormous expenditure of money we are entitled to have the full facts placed before us; and if, owing to the fact that tenders are still being called for, the government does not feel in the position now to give us that information, certainly it should postpone, or be willing to postpone, the further definite consideration of this convention until after the Easter holidays when the tenders in question will have been received.
Personally I desire to suport the convention if I possibly can, but I am not going to support it at a cost of $9,500,000 of capital expenditure to this country. IVe desire full information too, because other matters of very considerable importance are to be brought before this House involving very large appropriations of public money, and tl for one am not going to oppose large grants from the public treasury to the west and to the centre of Canada, and then turn round and vote for equally large or larger appropriations for services which are less valuable to the country, simply because the city of Montreal may be interested therein. As an honest and, I think, fairly intelligent representative 'I want to have the full facts stated to us so that there may be no deception-I am not saying that in an unpleasant way

so far as we are concerned.
We must be fully informed and 4 p,m. be in a position to vote intelligently on this matter. I put it to the Minister of Finance, who has a reputation to sustain as a competent and experienced business man if he would submit to any board of any corporation, of which he may be a director and official, an agreement of such a character and ask them to take it blindly without knowing, with a very considerable degree of definiteness, the actual expenditures that would be involved in the corporation carrying out such a project. He could not maintain his reputation as a competent business man by so doing. Therefore, I think that as we are to have some sort of an adjournment during the coming Easter holidays this matter should be deferred until the committee and the House may be fully informed as to the extent of the financial obligations they are undertaking by approving this convention, and may be able to determine each member for himself whether, having regard to our sentimental interest in the West India
islands, our sentimental and political desire to co-operate with them effectually and fully and at the same time conserve the interests of this country, we are justified in voting the very large amount from the public treasury of Canada which the present convention will undoubtedly entail.


Murray MacLaren: I wish to take this opportunity of referring somewhat briefly to the matter under discussion, the Canada-West Indies agreement. Many of us have followed the discussions in the House during the last five years, and several of us have taken part in those discussions. Whether one approves of the present treaty or whether one disapproves, I believe all are in accord on this point: that there is great need of an improved service of ships between Canada and the West Indies, a better modern class of boats, better passenger accommodation, better facilities for freight and for cold storage. There is another point on which I believe we will all agree, and that is that it is necessary to observe the fulfilment of the treaty between the West Indies and ourselves. A very decided complaint has been made regarding the method in which Canada has performed its obligations under the treaty. I believe it is correct to say that it is necessary to maintain at, least, the conditions at present, or there must be some other change. I present these two points; a better transportation service in many respects and a fulfilment of the conditions that have been laid down in the present act, or as may be promised in the proposed act. Then there is the third point, and surely we will agree upon that; that it is necessary for us to move on and search out to increase our trade with the West Indies. Whether the future is a great one, or whether it is not so great the fact is there is much left for Canada to do in increasing the West Indian trade so that these are the three main features on which I believe the members of this House all agree.
Let me say a word on a few points arising in this discussion. I think there is some misapprehension amongst some hon. members of this House as to the terms of the present treaty or agreement. First of all, let me say that to-day all imports coming from the West Indies to Canada can pass through the United States on the same terms as if they were entering Canada directly. It is true there is a provision that on six months' notice Canada may insist or may require that imports come direct to Canada, but that provision is not enforced and never has been enforced Many members in this House will remember that this matter has been pressed on the government for several years, and a feature of this

Canada-West Indies Agreement
agreement that one must recognize with satisfaction is that the government has incorporated in it and propose to enforce the requirement that all imports from the West Indies come direct to Canada. That is one of the favourable features of the treaty. Another point I wish to make is, that with reference to the imports from the West Indies at the present time, the statistics do not represent accurately, or even fairly, the amount of business we do with the West Indies. Most strikingly is this true with regard to bananas. At the present time a large quantity of the bananas imported into Canada is obtained through the United States. They may be West India bananas and they may not, but they are credited as an import from the United States. The United States ' does not grow bananas, but in the method of compiling customs statistics the import is credited to the United States, because our bananas are purchased and paid for there. I point this out because all bananas, whatever the amount may be, that are got from the United States, to almost the entire extent, appear as imports from that country, whereas, really they may be indirectly imports from the West Indies. Then there is the further point that under the preference provided for, it is reasonable to expect that a large part of the import of bananas will come from the West Indies direct. To that extent the benefit of a treaty with the West Indies, will be apparent because instead of importing through the United States, we can reasonably look for a very considerable increased importation through our Canadian ports.
Let me refer to the question of the quantity of bananas, because one may reasonably ask. can Jamaica, which is the principal island for the growth of this fruit, supply Canada with bananas? To give an illustration of the enormous amount of this fruit that is imported into the United States, let me say that in the year 1924, 47,000,000 bunches were imported into that country. In 1924 Canada imported 2,000,000 bunches from the United States, to the value of $4,500,000. From the British West Indies direct we imported only 7,000 bunches at a value of $14,000, a marked contrast between the imports of bananas from the West Indies and the imports from the United States. In 1924, Jamaica exported a total of almost 12,000,000 bunches Of bananas. Our requirements were about 2,000,000. It is therefore clear that there is ample production of bananas in the West Indies to supply Canada, but it is not clear at the moment whether the bananas that come into Canada actually come from the West Indies. Some no doubt

do, others do not; there is no customs return that will decide that point. But the important factor is that they will come to Canada from the West Indies under favourable conditions, and one would hope that this trade may be added to the business that is now going on between Canada and the West Indies.
There is a further point that should give us a favourable view of our future trade with the West Indies. It is this. We know that the business that we have has grown up largely without the assistance, or at any rate, with the very limited assistance, of trade agents. We have been informed in this House that the United States have trade agents scattered all through the islands of the Caribbean sea while it is a fact that the number of Canadian agents is extraordinarily few. I would suggest to the government therefore that, whatever agreement may be arrived at in the future, the matter of trade agents should should be carefully considered and due attention paid to their employment, inasmuch as the trade must depend to a considerable extent on the work of these agents. It is encouraging, in my opinion, to reflect that the trade which we have had during the past few years has been almost independent of the activities of agent?.
There must always be a start in movements of this kind, and a start has been made in the development of our relations with the West Indies. The trade has never reached any great proportions, however. Is it not reasonable to expect that our relations with the British West Indies will lead in the future to trade with other West Indian islands that are not British, as well as with that portion of the continent which is known as Central America? These fields naturally should and I believe would, open up as the result of a well defined policy of West Indian trade.
On the other hand, consideration must be given to the adverse views held in relation to the proposed treaty with the West Indies. One must pay regard to the opinions of Canadian West Indian merchants, and we should defer to some extent to the views of the various boards of trade which are interested in the prosperity of this country. There are a number of important merchants in Canada who disapprove of conditions of the proposed treaty, and I am aware that the Halifax board of trade has pronounced strongly against its terms. I hold a copy of that board of trade's decision on this question and I have no doubt other hon. members have also received copies. A similar report was

Canada-West Indies Agreement
published two or three years ago and was concurred in by the council of the St. John Board of Trade. It is necessary to refer to these things because they must receive consideration. These reports may represent very valuable opinions.
Now what is the outstanding objection to the treaty as proposed? The objection is the enormous cost which it is said it will entail. My own personal attitude towards the treaty is a favourable one. Of course, I do not think it proper to take too optimistic a view of it, and I believe that possibly such a view was held by the late member for Cumberland, who was tremendously interested in the subject. Probably his views were too optimistic; I do not consider the West Indian trade an eldorado for Canada. At the same time there are those who hold too pessimistic a view of our future trade with the West Indies. I believe there is room for substantial growth in that trade, perhaps not to any enormous extent, but something tangible and worth while.
How can one decide in a matteT of this [DOT] kind? It is contended very forcibly that the future business between the two countries is not sufficient to warrant our going into any very heavy expenditure. We must be careful therefore in promoting this trade agreement; we must make some reservation in forming our opinions on the subject. I would suggest therefore that, before we come to a final decision in the matter, as close an estimate as possible be given to the House as to what cost will be involved in carrying the treaty into effect. I do not want to scrutinize the cost too closely, but it should not be excessive. There is however something more than a mere commercial arrangement in such a treaty. We are carrying on or we should carry on, relations with another portion of the empire, so that not only is there the commercial aspect of the treaty to be considered; there is also the national responsibility which I think we should regard. We must have further details with regard to the expense that will be entailed. It may be that later on in this debate, or when the matter comes down in the form of a bill, that information will be largely supplied.
There is one other point to which I would refer here. I notice that there is a provision giving the Canadian government power to call at any port other than those specified in the agreement. Perhaps at some stage the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Robb) will give us the full information on that point, as to whether the treaty may include ports in the United States or elsewhere.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend's attitude indicates a fair understanding of the future possibilities of trade with the West Indies and neither his suggestion nor that of the hon. member (Mr. Cahan) is unreasonable, namely, that at some time before the bill receives its third reading we should be in a position to give to the House information as to the cost of the subsidies. I would be inclined to accept the proposition of my hon. friend from St. John (Mr. MacLaren), and if the resolution was passed and the bill introduced we might very well leave it for second reading until we were in a position at least to say to the House what the tenders amounted to. But I think every hon. member, had he the responsibility that I have now of seeking tenders and keeping the subsidies down to the lowest possible point for the benefit of Canada, would hesitate to give information which might be a guide to the tenderers as to how they .should present their figures. My hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George has referred to the great ability of the West Indian business man. I admit all that. But he has nothing on the shipping lords of the world, who are looking about for fat contracts, and have a way of putting their heads together and deciding where and how they will tender. I know that at the moment I am in the hands of those gentlemen, and I think my hon. friend will agree with me that it is not wise to disclose any information which would be of advantage to them.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: If my hon. friend will allow me-I understand that fully, and I have no objection at all to his withholding any information until tenders are received.


James Alexander Robb: I am glad my hon. friend realizes that. I am sure were he sitting over here he would adopt my attitude. I notice my hon. friend has quoted some resolutions from the council and secretary of the Montreal Board of Trade. These gentlemen apparently blow hot and cold according to who happens to attend the council meetings. Now, I am a member of the Montreal Board of Trade and of the Montreal Corn Exchange, and the gentlemen I meet at the board of trade for the most part are generally in favour of the West Indian treaty. Like my right hon. friend opposite, they say that the negotiating of this treaty is one of the bright spots in the record of this government. But I know there are other members of that board who possibly are tendering for this subsidy, and they would like to know what is the government's idea respecting it. Of course, they are perfectly right in seeking to place themselves in an advantageous position.
1S20

Canada-West Indies Agreement
In reply to what has been said, I should like to remind the committee that we did not go into this matter without estimates. I confess frankly that we have estimates of what the subsidy is going to cost, and any person who has so far estimated on it is very wide of the mark. In addition, we have an estimate from the Halifax Board of Trade that would not lead anyone to imagine that it is going to cost the great sum of money that some people seem to think likely; and the members of the Halifax Board of Trade at least should know something about shipping. I do not know that they would object so very much to what it is going to cost if they only knew who was going to get the subsidy. I think that interests them more than the cost.


Mr. HANSON:: I do not think the minister is doing himself or the West India committee of the Halifax Board of Trade justice when he makes that statement.


James Alexander Robb: I am not going to revive old stories and refer to any of the past subsidies, but I have in my hand a report 'by the royal commission of which Lord Balfour of Burleigh was chairman, made in 1909. Perhaps hon. gentlemen would like to know what that commission thought about some of the gentlemen who then enjoyed the subsidies and about the sort of ships they had on that route. The commission referred to them as something like old curiosity shops, for which they were getting a pretty good subsidy.


Richard Burpee Hanson: One hundred thousand
dollars a year.


James Alexander Robb: I did not say whose ships
they were. [DOT]


Richard Burpee Hanson: We all know whom you
mean.


James Alexander Robb: We are not going to subsidize antiquated ships. We need' good, modem vessels for our WTest Indian trade, and the government desires to secure a service not only satisfactory to the people of Canada but also 'to the people of the West Indian islands.
A few moments ago my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George, who has had some experience in the West India islands and down south, expressed doubt whether we could increase our trade with the islands; and I gathered that he also thought there were other people who could have made a better treaty, that in fact the government of the day went into it blindly. No.w, Mr. Chairman,

we did not go into this arrangement so blindly as my hon. friend imagines. For many years, under different governments, we have had in the service of Canada experienced trade agents. These agents had been travelling through the West India islands for something over two months gathering information as to trade possibilities, and when we met these gentlemen in conference we had the advantage of 'that information. They are experienced men with no axes to grind, and they went as our trade missionaries to spy out the land and the sea. Then we had also the experience of another gentleman who sat in as one of the delegates representing *the islands, although he is a 'Canadian. No one will say that the interests of Mr. Macaulay of the Sun Life Insurance Company are greater in the West Indies than in Canada. He has extensive interests throughout the whole Dominion, and should at least be a real Canadian missionary. He certainly knows the West Indies very thoroughly, and his judgment should be of some value. Ha does not quite agree with my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George. But we did' not need to take the advice of any of those gentlemen, for we have cold statistics of the trade of the West India islands. I placed those figures on Hansard when the bill was presented to the House, and my hon. friend will find them at page 1730, showing the purchases of ithe West India islands and the smalt percentage that Canada enjoys. Then if he will turn to page 17.31 he will find the increased tariff concessions that we obtained from the islands. So if we cannot get their business with the preference they have granted us, then the Canadian business man will not display those qualities that he has manifested in going out and securing trade in the other parts of the world, because Canadian export business has grown very rapidly in the last few years.
T"repeat, I will not press this resolution, but if my hon. friend agrees to make progress we might pass the resolution and introduce the bill, which we could give second reading, and then allow it to stand until we open the tenders, when we will be in a position to tell the House just what they contain. But I take it every hon. member agrees with me that it is not wise at this time to disclose any information that will adversely affect Canada's interests. I am glad that my 'hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George agrees with that view.


Mr. KAISER:: Are there no particulars in
which this treaty may be modified?
(MARCH 23, 1926
Canada-West Indies Agreement


James Alexander Robb: I think it must be accepted
as it is or rejected. That is the agreement with our friends of the West India islands. Most of their legislatures have already ratified the agreement. To keep good faith with them I think we should accept the treaty just as it is.


Mr. RYERSON:: Mr. Chairman, I do not desire to make any general criticism of this treaty at the present time, for the reason that I am in favour of the policy of trade treaties between the sister dominions as a means of bringing them closer together in commercial relations. But I do maintain that in the framing of such treaties every care and every caution should be exercised to see to it that our commitments are not too large, and that they are in proportion to the benefits that we are to receive. In the framing of this treaty I fear the government have been misled in important matters, and all my criticism is directed against that part of the programme dealing with the importations of bananas and the banana carrying business. I believe the government have been misled in this matter and have attached altogether too much importance to the possibility of diverting to our Canadian ports the large banana carrying trade which comes to us now, almost entirely through United States ports.
I claim, Mr. Speaker, to have some knowledge of this business, and of the difficulties of transportation, refrigeration, storage and the distribution of this fruit, and I state frankly to this House that I do not believe the plan to divert this traffic to Canadian ports feasible or practical. I am not going into detail as to why that is my opinion, but if permitted I will read a few extracts from a report of the Halifax Board of Trade, dealing with this matter, which is in the possession of many hon. members.
Where then can the increased traffic to warrant the expenditures be 'expected to come from? The only remaining article suggested is /bananas and a great deal has been said about them at the conference. The agreement provides that all bananas imported direct into Canada from British .possessions shafil be entirely free of duty and that ail coming from or through a foreign country shall pay a flat duty of 50 cents per stem or bunch. For the fiscal year ending March, 1925, Canada imported 2,464,925 bundles. Of these
100.000	came to the Maritime provinces, 2,059,369 to Quebec and Ontario, 303,396 to the prairif provinces and 133 to the Yukon. The greater bulk of these-
2.118.000	bunches were imported during April to November or eight months of the year.
Presuming that the ships as proposed are provided, they could carry 240,000 bunches per month. The importation during the month of May was 317,847; June, 360,369; July, 444,154; August, 376,274, showing that during these months a considerable quantity would have still to come through the United States to satisfy the demand or more tonnage provided for
that period and during the remaining months of the year, December to March inclusive, the costly ships proposed for the service would be required to operate carrying from 70,000 to 130,000 per month with a capacity of 240,000 bunches. It is not hard to see how the operating losses would pile up during that period.
The above is based on the presumption that all the bananas used in Canada would come by the ships proposed for the western service from Jamaica to Canadian ports but this is not at all likely to occur. Owing to the perishable nature of the bananas the shortest route and quickest transportation is necessary to avoid loss by deterioration, therefore all the bananas used in western Canada and possibly some used in Ontario are brought by steamer to Mobile or New Orleans, a two or three day voyage, and shipped to destination by rail, and the rail haul is shorter than from Canadian sea ports to similar points, creating a saving of six to seven days in the sea voyage and a possibly lower railway freight; is it not reasonable to assume that the saving in freight and lesser deterioration will offset the duty of 50 cents per bunch and admit that the bananas for western Canada will continue to move that w'ay? This would leave 2,000,000 bunches to be imported direct by the proposed steamer. The first question that occurs to us is, "Who is going to operate the business?" Will the Jamaica growers or merchants form a company to load the ships, establish a selling and distributing organization in Canada and sell to the Canadian dealer on as suitable terms and conditions as they buy at present? If so, the problem would be simplified and even though by virtue of their control of the business they would probably derive the whole benefit of the duty imposed on bananas of 50 cents per bunch, when imported via the United States, the proposal would have some little merit if it increased our exports to Jamaica. But if we know the Jamaica growers and merchants that is not likely to happen-they want to sell their bananas to somebody in Jamaica for cash and take no risks of the market conditions in Canada.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I -would ask the committee to take particular note of article 13. This article deals largely with the inauguration of this service, which is to deal practically with the banana situation. It would seem to me that the entire plan is linked up with this banana business, and a large part of the cost of equipping these steamers will be devoted to that purpose. Steamer service is to be provided for storage and refrigeration for 70,000 bunches, and freight service for 50,000 bunches. The important point-and I direct the attention of the committee to it- is that if the government fail to secure this traffic, a good deal of this expenditure will have been wasted, and the revenue which they expect to receive will have been lost. I claim that before this matter is intelligently voted upon we should have some statement from the government as to just how they propose to carry on this business.
I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) a few questions in connection with this particular part of the treaty:
1.	What information was available in reference to this industry, when the treaty wa3 negotiated? Did they have reports from experts, or first-hand information from those
Canada-West Indies Agreement

connected with this business here in Canada, such as dealers, transportation companies or distributors?
2.	Where they fully informed as to the extremely perishable nature of this fruit and the great difficulties of distribution without heavy loss?
3.	Were they advised of the fact that less than one-third of the total imports of bananas to the United States and Canada came from the West Indies, and that these West Indies imports were desirable only at certain seasons and for certain markets?
4.	What arrangements or plans do the government propose as to the importation and distribution of this fruit? Will the government go into the importing business themselves, or have they in view some corporation or company that will take on the job?
5.	Was any information supplied dealing with previous efforts to divert this traffic by transportation companies or other corporations or individuals?
6.	Did they have any knowledge of the fact that millions of dollars have been expended by large corporations in the industry in experimental work, in growing, handling, refrigeration, transportation and distribution of this fruit, and that inspection stations are maintained at all important junctions, and a messenger service established which watches carefully the temperature of every car of bananas en route to its destination, and that the most satisfactory plan of distribution is based upon the shortest haul and quickest delivery from steamer side to centres of distribution?
I will send a copy of these questions over to the minister.


James Alexander Robb: I will see them in Hansard
to-morrow.
Mr. RYEiRSON:	I do not wish to discourage this treaty at all, but I simply want to point out that there is very great danger of the government not satisfying themselves as to the feasibility of this project. Personally, speaking from an experience of thirty-five years, I do not believe that you can divert more than a small proportion of that traffic. Undoubtedly, if proper steamers could be put on this route, a certain portion of the traffic could be diverted to Quebec, and a portion of Ontario and of the Maritime provinces might be served, but I know that you never can supply the west, and you never can supply northern Ontario from our Canadian ports. This is knowledge that I have gained by experience. But if the government are properly advised in the matter, and if they still can formulate plans for proper distribution, I believe it will be satisfactory to the trade.


James Alexander Robb: I will look over the questions which my hon. friend has submitted and which will appear in Hansard to-morrow. May I just now say to him that I have greater faith and confidence in the management of the Canadian railways than he apparently has. Anything that has been accomplished by the United States railways in distributing this fruit can be equally as well done by the managements of the Canadian railways.
My hon. friend has referred to the fact that at the present time the banana trade enters Canada largely through Mobile and New Orleans.


Robert Edwy Ryerson: No. May I correct the
minister? I did not make that statement. That statement was in the Halifax report, and it is a very big mistake. The larger proportion of the bananas that come into the United States and supply Canada come to Baltimore, Philadelphia, Boston and New York.


James Alexander Robb: That is just what I was going to say. My hon. friend has placed on Hansard a record which says that those bananas largely come in through Mobile and New Orleans, but he has now corrected that statement himself. He knows that the trade comes in through New York, Baltimore, Philadelphia and Boston, and the United States railways get the long haul. I say very frankly that we purposely provided in this agreement that the benefits of this trade in and out should centre upon Canadian ports, so that Canadian ports and Canadian transportation companies would have the advantage of the business, and I believe they will be able to handle it. My hon. friend who is in the business doubts that. He seems to think the price will be cut and the trade continue to come in through United States ports. Very well, if it does, Canada will get out of that business one and a quarter million dollars annually; they will pay the duty, that is all there *is to it.
As to refrigerator space, I would point out that we require cold storage for our southbound traffic as well. If we are going to ship our dairy products down there, we must have refrigeration. My hon. friend from St. Law-rence-St. George (Mr. Cahan), who says he has been down there, and anv other hon. gentleman who has been in the West Indies must have seen the lady going about with a tray of fruit on her head, and must have observed that while the vendors here sell oranges, down there they are selling apples. There is a good trade for apples in the West Indies, and we must have refrigerator space for our apples as well as for our dairy products.

Canada-West Indies Agreement


Robert Edwy Ryerson: The Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) has said that our large transportation companies such as the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National can well be trusted to handle this business. I would ask him to make inquiry and find out if the Canadian Pacific Railway Company did not endeavour eight or ten years ago to do the very thing this government is now endeavouring to do, and fell down on it. I ask him to make inquiry and satisfy himself.


Mr. ARMSTRONG (Lambton):: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to be understood as being opposed to the development of trade within the empire, but I am opposed to treaties being entered into without a proper investigation first being made as to the effect these treaties will have upon industries in our country that will be vitally affected by them. I called the attention of the Minister of Finance the other night to one important industry in my county and in adjoining counties, the sugar beet industry. The minister knows that the refineries established in that part of the country will be seriously interfered with by this treaty. This treaty allows the Canadian Government Merchant Marine to carry the products of the West Indies to the refineries of Halifax, St. John and Montreal, but the refineries that are eight or ten hundred miles inland will be very much handicapped in transporting their raw material over that great distance. The refinery at Vancouver is in a similar position. It is hot likely that this government will attempt to carry the products of the West Indies around through the Panama canal and on to Vancouver, and therefore the refinery in Vancouver, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) the other evening, will be seriously handicapped. This is an industry of great importance to this country. Let me just place on Hansard a few figures in regard to the sugar refineries located in this country. The statistics of the sugar industry in Canada for the calendar year 1924 are presented in a report by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, which shows that the number of factories reporting operations during the year 1924 was seven, located by provinces as follows:
Number of
Province Factories Located at
Ontario	
2	Chatham and	WallacebmrfQuebec	
2	Both in MontrealNew Brunswick..	.	1	St. JohnNova Scotia	
1	DartmouthBritish Columbia	.	1	Vancouver
Then here are some figures as to the capital invested, number of employees, and so forth:
Capital invested	 $46,000,000
Employees on salary	 834,000
Employees on wages	 2,565,000
Total	 3,399,000
Cost of fuel	 $ 1.400,000
Cost of materials	 55,000,000
Value of products and by-products.. ..	67,000,000
Value added by manufacturing	 12,200,000
That goes to show the importance of the refining end of this industry.
Now the total cost of materials-and I should like the minister to pay some attention to this statement-fell from $61,800,000 in 1923 to $55,000,000 in 1924, due to the decline in the market price of raw cane sugar and of sugar beets. I have tried to call the attention of the minister-


James Alexander Robb: I am following my hon. friend.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: -to the effect of the lowering of this price and what it meant to the farmers interested in the production of sugar beets. The average price per hundred weight of raw cane sugar laid down in Montreal fell from $7.63 per ton in 1923 to $5.65 in 1924, while the price of home grown sugars manufactured from sugar beets fell from $12 per ton in 1923 to $5.87 per ton in 1924. I mention these facts for the purpose of impressing upon the minister at least, the serious effect this lowering of the duty on raw sugar coming into this country from Australia and New Zealand is having on the sugar beet growers of Canada.


James Alexander Robb: I do not want to interrupt the argument of my hon. friend but may I say this to him: There has been no change in the duty that has affected the price of beets.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: That may be, but the minister must admit he is increasing the preference.


Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: If my hon.
friend will allow me, I think the minister is wrong; there was a decrease in the duty.


James Alexander Robb: There was a decrease in 1923.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Yes that is when it occurred.


Mr. CHAPLIN (Lincoln):: And another by means of the Australian treaty.


James Alexander Robb: When did it go into effect?


James Dew Chaplin: In October.


James Alexander Robb: It has not gone into effect and will not do so until this treaty becomes operative so far as Australia is concerned.

Canada-West Indies Agreement


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: The minister admits the fact that in 1923 there was a reduction in the duty on refined sugar of one-half a cent per pound. The very next day the sugar beet growers in western Ontario- and there are tens of thousands of people interested in the production of sugar beets- had the price of their sugar beets reduced fifty cents per ton. As a result of that reduction the people in the counties adjoining the district in western Ontario where I live lost many hundreds of thousands of dollars. The minister now says that the preference will not be entered into as far as Australia is concerned until the present agreement between the West India islands and Canada becomes operative. Then, if I understand the matter correctly, as soon as the treaty with the West Indies goes into operation a similar trade arrangement between Australia and Canada will become effective. These treaties will allow the raw products of the sugar from Australia and the West Indies to enter Canada at a lower price than they have ever entered before thereby competing with the product of the growers of sugar beets in my part of the province of Ontario. Such being the case I have good reason to protest against entering into any such arrangement as the present without the minister first investigating the needs of the industry affected. I should like to ask the minister whether he really did make an investigation before bringing down this treaty in order to find out what effect it would have so far as the producers of sugar beets in Canada are concerned? Perhaps the minister would like to answer that question at a later date, but let me say to him it is a matter of vital importance to our people.
I have already drawn the attention of the government to the position of sugar refiners. The minister has already been shown that there will be a loss of revenue of
5 p.m. at least one million dollars, and that the total obligation to be shouldered by the people of Canada in connection with the investments involved here and in other matters, will reach a total of some $10,000,000. What are we to get in return for this treaty? I cannot do better than repeat the statement which was made in this connection by the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Black) on Friday evening last:
The West Indies get large quantities of fish from their own waters. In that connection I should like to read this extract from the report of the conference with the West India delegates. The vice-chairman is questioning Mr. Leacock, a delegate from Barbados.
"The Vice-Chairman: Your suggestion is that the preference given now is sufficient?
"Mr. Leacock: Yes, as far as we are concerned.''

Mr. Leacock says further:
"The Vice-Chairman: Before you sit down, Mr. Leacock, do you think it well to say something about what you can give to Canada?
"Mr. Leacock: Well, that is a very difficult point of view for me to touoh upon, because, as I say, Canada has the entire flour trade with the exception of what she cannot supply; she has the entire oat trade of our colonies, the entire oatmeal trade of our colonies, et cetera. Our manufactured goods come very largely from the United Kingdom, and the only article, as it appears to me, that we could encourage in trade with Canada by an increased preference, is the item of salted meats, which could bo turned over to Canada, and would probably go over quicker if you got an increased preference. That is as far as I can see as far as Barbados is concerned."
What he says applies not only to Barbados but to all the islands of the West Indies and to Bermuda.
If that represents the total increase in trade we may expect from this treaty surely it is not worth the enormous sums of money which Canada will be compelled to pay. The minister must realize the fact that labour in the West Indies is the cheapest kind of labour in the world, that a large portion of the population in those islands,-as has been already stated here-represents the second lowest type of civilization on the face of the globe, and that it is practically impossible for us to expect to develop trade to any greater extent than is now taking place. We protect our manufacturers from cheap labour; why not protect our farmers?
I wish, further, to draw the attention of the minister to the fact that the people in my district, at any rate during the last season, in order to find a market were compelled to ship nearly 200,000 tons of sugar beets to the United States, and that those farmers making the shipment were not only compelled to pay the freight to the sugar refineries but also an excise duty of 80 cents per ton at the border before their sugar beets could obtain admission into that country. What encouragement have these farmers to build a sugar refinery in the face of treaties such as we are entering into at this session of parliament? I have called the minister's attention to the fact that in my own home town the farmers, with their organization of over four thousand members, gathered together $200,000. Our town granted them a large site and built a railway siding into the plant. They commenced to build the plant and spent over $200,000, and there it stands. But instead of those farmers receiving encouragement for the development of their industry, the minister now takes advantage of that treaty to interfere materially with the future development of the industry. When the minister reduced the duty on refined sugar by half a cent a pound, the farmers were compelled, as I said, to accept fifty cents per ton less on their sugar

Canada-West Indies Agreement
beets. If a farmer produced sixteen tons of sugar beets to the acre, he was then compelled in 1924 to accept eight dollars per acre less for his product. When these treaties go into effect, how much less will he receive, and what encouragement is there for the farmers to proceed to develop this industry? It is a basic industry of our country, one in which we should all be vitally interested. The western provinces have been able to demonstrate the fact that they can grow beets up there successfully. They have built a refinery, as I understand, and are trying to carry on, but what encouragement have these men to continue in the develop'ment of that industry, if we are to enter into treaties that will undermine it from year to year? We are only producing 10 per cent of the refined sugar that is necessary to feed our people, and there are many opportunities for the development of this industry in Canada.
I desire to place a few questions on record, and I should like the minister to be good enough to send me answers to these questions before the treaty is proceeded with. My questions are as follows:
1.	What is the duty per pound at present on raw sugar similar in quality to the raw sugar taken from sugar beets coming into Canada from the West Indies and Australia separately, and what will the duty be on said raw sugar when the treaty between Canada and the West Indies now before parliament is consummated?
2.	What was the duty on same grade of raw sugar previous to the reduction of duty on this product in 1923?
3.	How many vessels of the Canadian Government Merchant Marine operate between Canada and the West Indies?
4.	What was the amount lost in operating these vessels each year since they have been placed in that service?
5.	What subsidies, if any, were paid in years 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1926 separately to vessel owners operating between Canada and the West Indies?
6.	Did the minister investigate the effect that this treaty would have on the sugar beet industry before submitting the treaty to parliament?
7.	Why jeopardize the interests of producers in an industry before investigating as to the effect a reduction in tariff would make?
These are some of the questions I should like the minister to answer. I wish to urge upon the minister the need of investigating the extent of the sugar beet industry in our country, the effect that this treaty will have on the producers of sugar beets, and the effect
that these treaties will have on refineries that are located inland, where they will be compelled to carry the raw sugar, if they do carry it at all, long distances in order to compete with those who are able to be served by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine.


James Alexander Robb: I will answer my hon. friend right now regarding the particular situation which he has discussed. I saw at once the importance of that question when we were negotiating the agreement, and as it so happened that the presidents of the two great railways were in Ottawa I represented to them that if, under this agreement, we provided that the Canadian railways would have all the haul on the export and import business in Canada with the West India islands, they should see to it that the refineries in western nQnada wars not discriminated against j in other words, that they should help them out on the freight rates and thus put them on an equal basis with New York. I pointed out to them that these people did not object so much to the small reduction of sixteen cents per hundred pounds on the raw sugar but that they wanted to bring their sugar in from New York, where they claimed they could get a lower freight rate than if it came in by way of Halifax and St. John, and I had the assurance of the railways that it looked like a reasonable proposition, and that they would see that the refiners out there were not in any worse position than the refiners more favourably located at the ocean or river ports of Canada. The reduction under this agreement on raw sugar which my hon. friend complains of so bitterly is only sixteen cents per hundred pounds on the raw sugar.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: What is the total duty?


James Alexander Robb: The preference is one dollar.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It was eightythree cents before, was it not?


James Alexander Robb: It was eighty-three something and now it is one dollar. It was almost eighty-four cents.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: Did that include the half cent reduction in 1923?


Henry Lumley Drayton: No, that is a different thing.


James Alexander Robb: It is quite true, as my hon. friend said, that the price of beets has dropped, but sugar is just like wheat, oats, butter or cheese, the price is regulated by the world's market, and the price of sugar has

Canada-West Indies Agreement
dropped all over the world. I notice that the people of the United States were complaining because their jam industry was suffering on account of the cost of sugar which did not compare with the cost in other markets of the world. I recall that in 1922 the government of Australia, through their high duties on sugar, practically put the jam and preserve people out of business, and they were compelled to conciliate them by giving them a subsidy. My hon. friend represents a splendid constituency and in the district near his constituency they grow beets for the sugar industry, but his next neighbour is interested largely in the jam and preserve business. That is a big business in Canada, and it is the duty of the government to see that that business is not discriminated against any more than any other business. In so far as injuring the beet sugar industry is concerned, this agreement practically stabilizes it, because it says that for a period of twelve years the preference shall be one dollar. So that they know exactly what they are going to do during the lifetime of the agreement.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Oh, oh.


James Alexander Robb: Does my hon. friend object
to that?
Sir HENRY DRAYTON My hon. friend is not taking himself or the committee seriously.


James Alexander Robb: Why not?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Surely it is obvious that it is >a preference on a rate of duty. There is no contract providing that the rate of duty shall be kept at any particular point; the only thing agreed upon is that there shall be a certain preference. Further than that, to show how absurd the suggestion is, there is a provision in the treaty itself whereby the arrangement may be altered at any time. The only understanding is that the preference shall remain stationary.


James Alexander Robb: That is right, but if my hon. friend happened to come into office he would have to retain that spread of one dollar. I was going to point out in regard to the beet sugar industry that according to the Monthly Bulletin of Agricultural Statistics for September, 1925, this business in Canada has grown considerably. In 1918 there were 18,000 acres under beets in Canada-I am leaving out the odd figures. In 1920 there were 34,000 acres and in 1922 there was a decline to 14,900. In 1924, however, the acreage was back again to 31,000 odd. That shows that the number of acres under cultivation is 
subject to the price obtainable for the product. If a man can obtain more money for wheat or oats or potatoes he will grow those products, and when he can get better prices for beets he will go in for beet growing. It appears, according to this bulletin, that in 1924 two Canadian beet sugar factories were in operation at Chatham and Wallaceburg. A third factory has been established at Raymond, Alberta, by Canadian Sugar Factories, Limited, and the acreage under beets for the past season was 6,634, of which 600 acres were lost and 6,034 thinned. This acreage yielded a total production of 58,000 tons. The business is therefore important.
Complaint has been made that the farmers are compelled to ship their beets to the United States. What is the reason? Let me quote the authority of a gentleman in the employ of the government, of Ontario who spoke recently at a dinner m Winds;! given in honour of the board of trade of that town. He claimed that the local industry was not dealing fairly with the farmers, and he took credit for having induced United States buyers to come over. He stated that the Mount Clemens Sugar Company was contracting for next year at $6 per ton. The company has to pay eighty cents per ton duty, and 'according to this information the farmers will now send their beets to the United States at $6 a ton as compared with $5.50 which the Canadian people were offering. That is why the Canadian beet growers have been shipping their product to the United States: they can get more money for it there. That is also the reason why the cream from my county and others sometimes goes to the United States. The farmer will send his cream or anything else to the market that pays him the most for it.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: 
Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Under this convention the
government reserves the right to give a similar preference under certain conditions to other British countries. Is that so?
Mr. ROBB. Yes.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I infer from what the minister says that it is the intention of the government, in view of the provisions of the Australian treaty, to give the same preference to Australian sugar. That is a fair inference. Would the islands of Fiji come under that provision? Not long ago I was on the Pacific coast where on behalf of a certain gentleman I made a thorough inquiry into the importation of sugars into Pacific ports, and particularly the Pacific ports of Canada. I have not my memoranda with me, but I have in my office a full report of that investigation, and I ascertained this fact, that a Vancouver sugar refinery-I have forgotten the name, but there is one there-had developed sugar lands in Fiji, and were themselves producing a large quantity of sugar which they imported into Vancouver for refining purposes.. I was wondering, therefore, whether Fiji would be given this preferential rate. Otherwise, it occurred to me that the Vancouver sugar refining industry might be prejudiced, in view of the fact that they have a large investment in the islands.


James Alexander Robb: When the matter was under
consideration on a previous occasion the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) asked that question.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I am calling attention to
the matter in his absence.


James Alexander Robb: I pointed out then that if the Fiji islands were disposed to give Canada a greater concession than we now enjoy, although I believe we are getting their lowest tariff, we would consider extending to those islands the advantages of the West India agreement. As my hon. friend has stated, there is considerable sugar grown in the Fiji islands, but about three years ago, I think it was, they had to curtail their operations, having had some difficulty with the government of India and being enable to bring in any more indentured labour


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: That is since the Lime i
was referring to


James Alexander Robb: I am told they grow very good sugar down there. The question of Canada reserving to itself the right to extend tms preference to other dominions and colonies was brought up in this way, that our West Indian friends, or perhaps some of our own friends, did not wish Newfoundland to be granted the same preference. We wanted to reserve the right to negotiate with Newfoundland, and also, later perhaps, with some of the other British dominions, including Australia and the Fiji islands, having in mind to secure advantages for our sugar refineries on the Pacific coast. Now, Canada is interested not only in getting sugar at a reasonable price for domestic use and for our great jam industry, but also for the important sugar export business that is now developing. Canada exports considerable quantities of sugar to different. parts of the world. I hope my hon, friend from Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) is not unduly alarmed over the small amount of beet sugar that is grown here, for it does not influence the domestic market. I say again, the price of beet sugar will be regulated by the world's market.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: May I ask. not for the purpose of discussion, if the government reserves the right under this treaty to raise our customs duties to any height it sees fit?


James Alexander Robb: I should not like to be positive, not having the treaty before me at the moment, but offhand I would say that so far as the spread is maintained-


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is the contract.

Canada-West Indies Agreement


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I think it is very important.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, it does so provide on
page 12:
Provided that nothing herein contained shall prevent the government of Canada from changing the rates of duty, provided the preferences granted herein are maintained.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Then so far as the contention of my hon. friend from Lambton is concerned, the government's hands are not tied, and parliament may give any protection it sees fit in future to the beet root sugar industry?


James Alexander Robb: I think my hon. friend is quite correct in that. If hon. gentlemen changed sides and my friend from Lambton wanted to put a high duty on the sugar of the people who make preserves and jams, he would be at liberty to do so.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I was not discussing that
phase of the situation at all, but I think it is important that our ideas should be clarified, because there are a great number of people in the country who are deeply interested in this provision.


James Alexander Robb: That is clear.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I was going tc
take up the point the hon. gentleman has just addressed himself to and add slightly to what he has said. The question of the general duty is really the decisive question on the price that the producer of sugar beets gets. As the minister well knows, only a comparatively small fraction of our sugars in the past have come in under specific preferences. That is beyond all room for argument. Sugar being high generally, as my hon. friend has said, and the sugar coming in from the West Indies being only a moiety of the whole, although there was a preference of 82.70 odd per cent given under the contract of 1920, instead of the price per ton of sugar beets going down, as a matter of fadt it went up; but the converse happened in 1923, when with the manufacturers of jams and preserves getting along practically just as well as they are getting along now having regard to the relation of their business to other businesses-I admit their position was not as good as it is now, for we were only then getting over the postwar deflation-and without any real demand for it, the government took half a cent a pound off sugars, and immediately 50 cents a ton was taken off the price of the farmers' beets. That is perfectly obvious because, as I pointed out to my hon. friend the other day when I put my queries to him, the price of the sugar beet to the farmer depends on two things, saccharine content and the price of

raws landed in Canada; and the price of the latter, despite what my hon. friend says, ha3 a great deal to do with tariff arrangements and that sort of thing. It is quite true there is a world price for refined sugar, but this price varies tremendously throughout the world having regard to distributing costs and tariff. It varies very much more having regard to distributing costs than it does in this country in relation to the tariff. And there is a very simple way in which my hon. friend can help our farmers engaged in the sugar beet growing industry practieally'without hurting anybody, because if he studies the tables of refined sugar prices he will not find that the breakfast table gets the benefit of that half cent a pound; it does not. It gets the small benefit here and there which depends far more upon changes in cost of distribution and upon domestic competition than on any change in the price of raws. Therefore if my hon. friend wants to help our farmers who are engaged in the sugar beet growing industry he has just simply to go back to where we were in 1923. If he does that, if he puts up the general rate half a cent, he will find that his treaty here will make but very little difference, if any at all, in that cost.


James Alexander Robb: I do not want to interrupt
my hon. friend's argument; but would it not increase the price of the best sugar used in Canada? Would it not mean a difference of three million dollars?


Henry Lumley Drayton: Let my hon.
friend take his own statistics as to the cost of living in this country, and just see how much our consumers have been benefited by that cut. The lifting of the cost that we have been having recently certainly has not had anything to do with tariff increases; it may have had something to do with tariff reductions, because these are sometimes concurrent with an increased cost of living. In fact we have had that happen. I do not think my hon. friend will find any very close relationship between his tariff on the one hand and his cost of living on the other.
My hon. friend has referred to the American situation. Well, last July there was trouble in the United States about the price of refined sugar. Some of the jam manufacturers thought they were being charged too much for their sugar, and they made application to the President to reduce the sugar duties so as to cut down the price. The President refused the application. In less than six weeks afterwards, notwithstanding that the tariff had been maintained absolutely, the competitive situation of the local market had so developed that there was a substantial

Canada-West Indies Agreement
cut in the domestic price of refined sugar, and the very people who had been urging for a reduction in the tariff ceased their agitation. My hon. friend will find that all reported in the American papers, the conclusion which they drew being that leaving the tariff where it was-and it was high-intensified their local production, as it happened that just as soon as the competitive situation reached a certain point they got their refined sugar at far lower prices than they would have secured if the tariff had been reduced. At any rate, that is what happened there. I repeat, my hon. friend will find a very easy way of helping the people of Lambton and Kent in their sugar beet industry if he will just simply look after what was done in 1923. My hon. friend is more or less engaged in repairing damage done by his government, and he might Quite easily repair this little damage also. By retracing mistaken steps he would not only be improving conditions for his governmental record, but he would be helping things in the country generally.
There was just another point I wanted to refer to. I spoke to my hon. friend the other day in connection with cocoa beans, and I pointed out to him what I believe to be the fact, that with our manufacturers of confectionery and the like, the larger part of their cocoa beans are of a far cheaper quality than the Trinidad cocoa bean. I appreciate that we have to take this treaty or leave it. The different parliaments have passed upon this treaty; we are the last to take it up, and I understand from what my hon. friend says that Trinidad is adamant upon this point. I accept my hon. friend's statement absolutely. Apart from that statement I would have argued that the treaty does not help Trinidad because even with the preference-and it is substantial-the African cocoa bean is so much cheaper than the Trinidad bean, owing to cheaper labour in Africa, that it would still be brought into this country. But I am going to ask my hon. friend to take this into consideration very-seriously and see if he cannot straighten it out in his budget, not as against Trinidad, but for the purpose of maintaining the tariff situation which now governs the local market, having regard to the confectionery business.
The American confectioner is not under the same disability our confectioner is under. Hon. gentlemen here must recollect that we are not now dealing with a preference but with a substantial increase in the duty on cocoa beans coming into Canada. My hon. friend,' with a treaty, is substantially raising the tariff item. Of course if we could get all
14011-IIP,
the items raised properly, it would be an excellent thing, but where we just have one item raised in this particular way, without considering the people who must feel the effects of that action, I think my hon. friend will agree with me that it is something he can well take into consideration in connection with his budget. He cannot, of 'course, tell me now what he will do; I appreciate that, but if he will tell me that he will, as I think he should, take that matter into very careful consideration, I am quite sure that one substantial interest of this country will be pleased.


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend has himself given the proper answer. I cannot tell him what I will do, but I appreciate his argument and I will give it my most serious consideration.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is just another point. Will my hon. friend tell me when these tenders come in?


James Alexander Robb: I was just going to mention that. I said earlier in the day that I would not ask for a second reading of the bill until the tenders come in. I believe that date is April 6, and we may want two or three days to analyse them.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Might I ask my hon. friend another question? With regard to the decrease in customs revenue arising out of this treaty, plus the decrease which automatically arises in view of the Australian sugar coming in under the same preference, has my hon. friend made any estimate of the actual loss of revenue, on the basis of last year's importations, say?


James Alexander Robb: Yes, speaking from memory I think it is about $600,000.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: I thought that was from the West Indies alone.


James Alexander Robb: I will get the correct figures later.


Mr. BLACK (Halifax):: A short time ago I think my hon. friend cast some reflection on the service now being operated. For the information of the House I may say that the sendee now under subsidy by the government to what is known as the eastern group of islands has been performed by the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, who have an office in Halifax. My firm work in conjunction with them. No one realizes more than that company does that the steamers are antiquated and unsuited to the route. That is admitted, and they have felt very deeply the conditions which required them to carry



Canada-West Indies Agreement
on that service with those steamers. It is a reflection on that company, which is one of the largest, most influential and most respected steamship companies in Great Britain. The reason that these ships have been continued on the route is simply that for years past the company has been pressing the government for an improvement in this service. Four or five years ago the government did call for tenders for improved service. That company submitted a tender-the only one submitted-the terms and conditions of which were reasonable, but the government saw fit to turn it down. From time to time, almost from month to month, the government has requested that company to continue the service with the tonnage which has been carrying on that service for twelve or fifteen years past. When the ships were put on they were satisfactory, good enough for the business, for the route and for the passenger traffic. But conditions have changed since then; the ships have grown older and, as I said before, it is a source of annoyance to the company to have to operate them. They were only operated at the urgent request of the government.
In that connection I might say I believe that, as a result of the call by the government for tenders, there will be no offers to perform that entire service. The conditions governing the service to the western group, for which tenders have been asked, are so extreme and so exacting that I am sure no company will undertake it, and no government will pay the subsidy necessary to its operation. But I can quite conceive that with the wonderful picture of the trade that can be done and the expected increase in trade between the western group and this Dominion, the government may be induced to operate ships to carry on that service, and this House and the public will not be aware of the yearly cost the service will entail. It will be extremely expensive. It is held out that there will be a large passenger traffic down there, but I would call attention to the fact that within the last three or four years excusions on the big steamers have become very popular almost throughout the world, and at the present time inducements are being offered by the companies operating on the Atlantic which have arranged for excursions on their large ships from New York and other American ports to the West Indies. In my judgment that will interfere very, very materially with the proposed passenger traffic for the western group. Furthermore, as regards both groups, the tonnage that is now running out to these islands will be increased and [Mr. W. A. Black.J
the number of steamers and the number of trips will be greater than at the present time. The tonnage that is carrying on that trade to-day is running about only sixty per cent full cargo on the average throughout the year. The tonnage now proposed for the western group is eight or ten times greater than the tonnage operating to-day, and how those ships are to be provided with cargo, and where that cargo is to come from, is something that I, and I think those familiar with the West Indies trade, are at a loss to understand. The Royal (Mail, operating on the eastern route, show by their report that their ships have been running on an average sixty-five to sixty-seven per cent short of cargo during the whole year, -and yet it is proposed to increase the carrying capacity on that route under new terms, which can result in nothing else but heavy loss to whoever may be operating the service.
As I said when speaking of this matter before, we are obtaining from the West Indies- I refer now to the eastern group-all the sugar, all the molasses, and all the products of these West India islands that we can consume, and no amount of additional tonnage, not even a daily service can increase our imports from those islands.
So far as outward trade is concerned, the same conditions exist. I do not say there may not be some small increase perhaps in some of the things that are going out there at the present time, but it will not be very great; it will not in any way provide the cargo necessary for the tonnage on that route. This banana trade, of which such a glowing picture has been painted, is in my judgment very problematical. I am perfectly satisfied in my own mind that Canada as a whole cannot be supplied by the proposed services which are to be put on between Jamaica and Canada; I am perfectly satisfied that British Columbia and ithe western portions of this country cannot be supplied. That portion of this country will be supplied, even paying the fifty cents duty, via New Orleans and up the Mississippi valley. The distance and the time taken between Jamaica and New Orleans is about two and one-half days. It is about the same time up the valley, and bananas shipped from Jamaica via New Orleans will reach destination in British Columbia and the western parts of this Dominion before they can reach any Atlantic port, Halifax or St. John. The banana is not only a perishable article, but an article that cannot well be handled in cold weather. The House may know that a banana subjected to a temperature of 55 degrees is blackened and destroyed, and how the trade can be handled to

Canada-West Indies Agreement
advantage in cold weather is something that I cannot understand. The off season in Jamaica has also to be taken into consideration; what are these expensive ships going to carry during that period of four or five months? There is another disadvantage. If there are any fruit dealers here, they will know perfectly well that the Jamaica banana is inferior in quality to that of British Honduras.


Charles Hazlitt Cahan: Inferior to those of almost
every island to the south.


William Anderson Black: Yes, and not only that: in Jamaica they have their dry seasons when the banana crop is not worth transporting. What are the ships to do for cargo under those circumstances? There is another point: We all know that Jamaica suffers from hurricanes, A few years ago we all read of the island being swept by hurricanes and the banana crop being blown down. Where is the fruit to come from then? This proposal in connection with Jamaica is but the dream of an idealist, which will never materialise, and it will cost this country millions of dollars.
I would also refer to an antiquated proposal in connection with this treaty, a proposal that has been tried in the West, Indies and condemned and abandoned. In the early days before there was much competition among the steamship lines, the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company operated under subsidy from the imperial government from Southampton to Barbados. When these boats from Southampton arrived at Barbados, their cargo was transferred to what were called the interinsular boats, which distributed the cargo among the islands, one going to the islands north, one to Grenada, and one down to Demerara. What happened? As competition increased, other linrs came into the West Indies trade; they carried their cargoes direct to these islands that were being served by the inter-insular boats, and the result was that no shipper would put his goods on a boat when they had to be transferred to another boat. He could ship on a steamer going direct to destination, and the result was that these inter-insular boats were left without cargo and were withdrawn.
It is proposed under the treaty to have a service under which cargo from Canada will be transferred to another steamship at Jamaica, whence it will proceed to British Honduras. If that is done it will be necessary to provide warehouses and all sorts of docking facilities at Kingston, Jamaica, as well as officials to look after the boat. A certain amount of expense will be involved in loading and unloading cargo at Jamaica, and any damage 14C11-116^
caused on account of the extra handling will have to be met. Now, does anyone at all familiar with shipping undertake for one moment to say that cargo can be shipped in two bottoms, subjected to transfer, and carried at a rate which will at all compete with a steamship which travels direct? We can get none of the British Honduras trade by any such expensive process as that; it will all go by direct steamer from American ports. The extra steamer means a proposal which will be antiquated, expensive, and of no benefit whatever to Canada. It may be said, "Oh, we are going to bring bananas up from British Honduras, where the best fruit grows." I venture to say that there will not be a thousand bunches in ten years shipped in hot weather by any such route, and I have very grave doubts myself as to tliQ nnooiKilitv r\f nKtomimr V\o tvo to o p frOITl
UlO	vj yjA.	UU.UWUUU
the island of Jamaica in quantities required.
Then, in the last place, I want to emphasize what my hon. friend (Mr. Cahan) has said, namely, that the minister is asking us to enter into an agreement as to the cost of which the government knows nothing. This treaty was negotiated months ago so that there has been ample time to enable the government to give us some information as to the probable cost. We have not yet been vouchsafed that information and I say it is not fair, right or businesslike to ask the House to sanction an agreement as to the cost of which no one here can give any estimate, because we have not been given any kind of information.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend was out when
I agreed to delay the second reading of the bill until we had tenders in our possession and could give the amount of those tenders. I was just wondering while I listened to my hon. friend if he was going to go so far as to advocate that we cancel all subsidies on steamship services to the West Indies.


William Anderson Black: I think it would
be a very good thing for you to do in the interests of the country.


James Alexander Robb: Do you believe that?


William Anderson Black: Yes, and I am perfectly prepared to support it.


Mr. MacLEAN (Prince):: This treaty is
supposed to be very important to the Maritime provinces at whose ports, including that of Charlottetown, we were led to understand the vessels engaged in this service would call. I think that when tenders are being called care should be taken to see that this provision, which was agreed to at the conference, is carried out. I ask the Minister of

Canada-West Indies Agreement
Finance to look into this particular point which is of very great importance to the Maritime provinces.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, I will keep that in mind.


The CHAIRMAN:: Shall the resolution
carry? .


Arthur Meighen: Do you want the resolution carried before six o'clock?


James Alexander Robb: Whatever my right hon. friend says. It might as well be carried.


Arthur Meighen: I do not see much value in adopting the resolution if the second reading of the bill is to wait. The adoption of the details of the resolution really implies the adherence of the House to the pact itself. I suggest that the committee rise.


James Alexander Robb: My right hon. friend does
not approve of the carrying of the resolution?


Arthur Meighen: I do not see any value
in carrying the resolution when the second reading of the bill is to wait.


James Alexander Robb: I thought we might pass a
resolution; then I could table the bill, and hon. gentlemen would be able to study its details.


Arthur Meighen: The bill can be tabled
anyway.


James Alexander Robb: Only after the resolution is
adopted.


Arthur Meighen: The first reading may
not be moved, but the bill can be tabled.


James Alexander Robb: My right hon. friend knows
better than that. We never table a bill until after the resolution upon which it is based has been passed.


Arthur Meighen: There is no reason why
the bill should' not be tabled, although it cannot be distributed. However, I have no great objection.


William Duff: Shall the resolution
carry?


Arthur Meighen: Carried, with the reservation that we are only doing so for the sake of getting the bill.
Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in. Mr. Robb thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 15, respecting trade relations with British West Indies, Bermuda, and British Honduras.
Motion agreed1 to aud bill read the first time.
At six o'clock the House took recess.

After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.


DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE
[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of Supply, Mr. Duff in the chair.
Trade and Commerce-The Copper Bounties Act, 1923, administration of, $1,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: This item
provides for the cost of the administration of an act which the Right Hon. Mr. Fielding introduced in 1923 providing for copper bounties. My recollection is that it was a bounty on rods. Mr. Fielding expected that this wouid greatly increase the production of copper rods in Canada. This would be a convenient time for the minister to tell us what has been the production and1 what the bounties are.


James Alexander Robb: It was provided by legislation that from May 12, 1923, to June 30, 1924, both inclusive, there would be paid one and a half cents per pound; from July 1, 1924, to June 30, 1925, one and a quarter cents per pound; and so on, down to one-half of one cent per pound in 1928. The records show that in 1924 the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Rossland produced 27,505 tons of ore which yielded 2,030,605 pounds of copper. In 1925 the total production was 18,005 tons of ore, or 3,056,848 pounds of copper. For 1926, up to January, there had been produced 22,704 tons of ore, which gave 3,184,373 pounds of copper.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I thought we
were paying the bounty on rods. I am interested to know how the production of rods is getting on.


James Alexander Robb: We paid the bounty on 532,117 pounds of coppper bars in August 1924; on 632,023 pounds in September 1924; on 213,571 pounds in 1925, and on 1,268,696 pounds in 1926. We have paid a total bounty of $29,374.42.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the
present annual output?


James Alexander Robb: The average in 1924 was 27,505 tons of ore producing 2,030,605 pounds of copper.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That refers to
ore and copper, not to copper rods.


James Alexander Robb: In 1925 there was a production of 18,005 tons cxf ore, or 3,056,848 pounds of copper bars. I have given all these figures.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We are not making great progress, but I suppose that the real

Supply-Trade and Commerce
abjection that might be urged is not to the item itself so much as to the fact that this government, which has been repudiated by the country, should be given any vote at all. However, under the circumstances I will say nothing more.
Item agreed to.
The Hemp Bounties Act, 1923, administration of, $500.


James Alexander Robb: This is the same vote as the
one passed last year.


Henry Lumley Drayton: :	A proposition
was made some years ago to the government whereby it was hoped that a large quantity of hemp would be grown and that there would be established a considerable industry in the western provinces. There was some issue between those interested in the proposition and the government. The government were prepared to go a certain distance and no further. It was thought they were not going far enough. If an industry has been established in the west what is the production?


James Alexander Robb: No one has so far claimed any bounty under the act, and this vote is only for purposes of administration. Last year the expenditure was $248.33.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Whv should
there be any expenditure?


James Alexander Robb: Travelling expenses had to be paid.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If there were no applications for bounties why should there have been any expenditures?


James Alexander Robb: Printing, stationery and so
forth had to be provided for.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is it expected that there will be any claims for bounties this year?


James Alexander Robb: I do not know. The act was passed in the hope that an industry would be established in the west.


James Dew Chaplin: There will be
no forms to be printed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Enough forms have been printed to last twenty-five years.


James Alexander Robb: If hon, gentlemen insist upon it I do not object to reducing the item, but the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) tells me that someone is interested in the industry.


Mr. MOTHERWELL:: I understand that
several hundred acres of hemp have been grown in the vicinity of Portage la Prairie and in other parts of Manitoba, and a small plant is being established on rented premises,
the initial machinery having been installed. I have no official information on file to this effect, but I have gathered this from casual conversations with residents of Winnipeg and Portage la Prairie. I know for a fact, however, that several hundred acres have been under cultivation.


Richard Burpee Hanson: This vote is only for administration. What expenditures will be incurred over and above clerical work in Ottawa?
Ml-. ROBB: An inspector may have to go out.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Does this come under the Department of Agriculture?
Mt\ FOSTER:	Some years ago a determined effort was made by some of the citizens of Winnipeg to establish a hemp industry in Manitoba. Colonel Grassie of Winnipeg was associated with the enterprise, and there came over from the Old Country a number of the best experts in the industry to investigate all that section of territory north west of Winnipeg up to the foot of lake Manitoba and on towards Neepawa and Dauphin. A great deal of money was spent and the reports were to the effect that the soil was highly suitable for the establishment of a great hemp industry. The samples of hemp pulled yielded, I believe, a product that compared favourably with hemp grown anywhere else in the world. It is exceedingly difficult to get local capital to go into an industry such as this if it is to start it from the foundation, as the hemp industry in the northwest would have to be started. It is a fact that nothing has been voted so far with the exception of $500 for clerical work, and that in itself indicates that the industry is not yet on its feet. Frankly, I think that if this country would assist by bounties in aid of the establishment of certain industries in western Canada, such as hemp growing, for instance, it would at least be an undertaking well worthy of consideration, and I think we should look forward to spending a little more money in Canada on the attempt to make two industries flourish where we have but one now. I think some part of the millions of dollars that we might be inclined to spend on railway development could be much more profitably spent upon the establishment of industries in all parts of the country, particularly the west and the east. Although I do not come from there I mention the west because for years I have been interested in the development of that country and have come very close to a great many men who are struggling against
1S34

Supply-Trade and Commerce
difficulties in their efforts to establish certain industries in that part of the Dominion. I have felt like asking the Minister of Finance to tell the committee what was the occasion for the introduction of this bill in the first place. Somebody must have come to the government and made the request. If so, what happens to those people? If we could have a little more information on that I would be very grateful, and perhaps the House would be also.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the act
was passed in 1923. My hon. friend is quite right, the subject was brought to our attention by Colonel Grassie and some other gentlemen in Winnipeg, who hoped to develop the industry. I could not point out to the House any more than my hon. friend himself has disclosed. If they are to make progress this year, I submit we might very well let the item pass. Of course, hon. gentlemen will understand that if the bounty is claimed, it will be paid under the act. Like the other bounty I have just quoted, it commences in 1926 at li cents a pound and diminishes each year until in 1933, it drops to half a cent a pound.


Mr. WHITE (London):: Will the minister tell the committee whether the bounty is to be paid on the hemp as grown or on the twine to be made from it?


James Alexander Robb: The bounties are payable on:
Hemp grown in Canada and used in the manufacture of yarn or twine, or in the manufacture of hemp further advanced than yarn or twine, manufactured in Canada and sold for consumption therein, during the periods and at the rates following, that is to say-
And the rates specified are those I have just given.


John Franklin White: Does the bounty go to the manufacturer?


James Alexander Robb: I am going to continue my
quotation to show how the weight is computed :
Provided that the said bounty shall be paid on the weight of carded ihemp used in such manufacture and that the weight of the carded hemp shall be computed on the absolutely dry weight thereof, plus a moisture regain of not more than 12 per cent, and exclusive of lubricating or other extraneous material.
It is also provided that:
The sum to be paid as such bounty shall not exceed $125,000 in any one of the said periods.


Mr. EVANS:: 
Mr. HAY:: Mr. Chairman, I think it would be wise on the part of the committee to pass this item. I understand that the parties interested in the proposition are still working on it, and hope eventually to be able to establish a plant in Manitoba for the manufacture of twine and other products. I should like to see the item pass because I think it will help to encourage an industry which we have been seeking to establish in Manitoba for quite a number of years.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Mr. Chairman, the difficulty is not in connection with the growth of hemp. When I say that I am relying on the word of the government, because the government were in charge of what was going on and were checking off the tests that were made. I am relying, as I recollect, on the word of the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell), that good hemp could be grown in Manitoba, that in fact he had seen magnificent hemp growing there. I think we had similar testimony from the other minister from the west (Mr. Stewart). Apparently there was no question but what this country could produce excellent hemp, and that there was ample room for a plant to manufacture hemp into twine and other products, the only difficulty being in starting such a plant. That was common ground. My hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture nods his head; his memory and mine are exactly the same with respect to the matter. The difficulty was that while Colonel Grassie with his associates from Manitoba were perfectly firm as to the minimum assistance which would be required, the department

Supply-Trade and Commerce
thought that that assistance could be pared. The difficulty, as I recollect, took on two phases; one was as to the amount per annum, and the other as to the number of years and the manner in which the bounty would taper. As a matter of fact, the difference between the department and the expert which these gentlemen brought out from Ireland was very, very small; but I know the Irish expert when he left the country said that the government had effectually killed the scheme which they were ostensibly trying to help; that by withholding but very little they were effectually ensuring that Manitoba would not get this industry.
In connection with this item, Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the government make it workable. The government has on its files now the representations made, and they have had two and a half years of failure. They have information that this is an industry which ought to be developed; they have acted upon that information and are committed to that position. Why should not my hon. friend make his act workable this year? It would be an easy thing to do and as I recall it, the amount involved is practically trifling. If the government really have faith in this venture, after playing with it for two and a half years, why not make sure that something will be done to give this new industry to a province which should have it?


James Alexander Robb: I would not like to make
a commitment to amend the act and increase the expenditure. I submit that $125,000 a year is not a trifling amount.


Henry Lumley Drayton: It tapirs off
very quickly.


James Alexander Robb: However, I may say to my
hon. friend that I will carefully look into it, without making any statement that I will increase the bounty.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I think we should hear
from the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell). If I am not mistaken this is one of his babies, and1 I wouild like to hear his reply to the attack of the hon. member for Rosetown (Mr. Evans) on the principle underlying this. If the Minister of Agriculture approves of that underlying principle, let him get up and say so, land let us hear what he has to say about the remarks of the hon. member for Rosetown.


William Richard Motherwell: Mr. Chairman,
when Colonel Grassie and his associates came here from Winnipeg during the first session of the last parliament I bad a long discussion
with him, but nothing was done during that session except to have the matter investigated1. I found that he and his associates had been working on this question for some fifteen years. Their hope of success had been interfered with by the war, and1 following the war they had still greater difficulty in financing it. Eventually they came down to Ottawa to see if something could not be done in the way of a bounty to assist in getting the necessary capital to establish the industry. Mr. Coote, a representative of the Belfast Rope Works, accompanied Colonel Grassie the second year, and there wlas no question in my mind' from the outset as to the capacity of many provinces for producing raw hemp of a splendid quality. In bringing in a hemp bounty no new principle was established in this House, because that principle had been recognized' by various parliaments for many years. In this case, however, the bounty was to recede with the years and to ultimately disappear, in contrast to some methods of assistance which we have adopted at other times. Ini the meantime our friends who have been at the bottom of the movement in Manitoba, as indicated by the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton), were not able to get a sufficiently attractive bounty to get the necessary capital immediately following the war. For a number of years in Great Britain one government followed another in rapid succession, and' as a result the money market was greatly disturbed. That was the reason why the bonds did not find a sale. Now they have secured sufficient capital to start in a small way and have entered into the necessary contracts with farmers to grow something like 500 or 600 acres of hemp; the necessary ray products have been arranged for; the machinery is being installed' now if it has not already been put in, and this industry will work up to a position which will enable it to qualify for the bounty. Until that is done, very little money, with the exception of this merely nominal item, is required. I think possibly I have covered the question, except the reference to the hon. member for Rosetown, and I think the Minister of Finance replied to that. I know my friend's views with regard to that question; he did not support it very ardently at the time it was first introduced, so his views have not changed much since that time.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Would the
minister observe the wording of the act? The maximum bounty, I think, commences

Supply-Trade and Commerce
at a given year and works down. Owing to the fact that nothing has been done, does not the Minister of Agriculture think that act should foe 'amended in order that the bounty term might commence with the inception of the industry, rather than in connection with the years that have passed?


Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):: Is my hon. friend correct in that statement?


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is as I
understood it from the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Robb). When he read it out I think he said it was for the year 1925, one and a half cents, and then it worked down.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, I did make that statement, because I thought it had started then, but as a matter of fact the memorandum I have in front of me says "1926, one and a half cents," so my hon. friend may be correct.


Mr. FOSTER:: I am entirely in accord with the hon. member for West York when he says that something should1 be done to put the House in a position to assist this industry. The very fact that these men have been devoting fifteen years of time and their own money in an attempt of this kind and getting nowhere appears to me to merit the serious consideration of this House. It is almost unthinkable that when we have the country, the climate, the soil and everything conceivably needed to start an industry which will assist the farmers of a certain part of this country, it should take fifteen years of long labour on the part of a few progressive citizens of Winnipeg in order to get to a point where they may ask the government to put an act on the statute book, and that three years should then elapse before that act is made workable. It does seem to me that some steps should be taken immediately to assist this industry. If it is bonds they need, help put them in a position where their bonds are salable. If they need further investigation with regard to whether or not the kind of hemp they can grow is marketable, let us give them $5,000 or $10,000 in order to develop that particular phase of the question and help this industry to success. I may hold peculiar ideas about some things, but I am convinced that you cannot solve the problems of this country in any better way than by assisting in the creation of new wealth, when that new wealth is represented by a product which the world demands and which is therefore marketable.


James Alexander Robb: The only way any further aid could be granted would be by amending the act or by getting a special vote put in the estimates, and I am afraid' I might run up against the Minister of Finance, who is not willing to increase the expenditure.


Mr. NICHOLSON:: If this question is examined clearly it will be seen to have a broader aspect than merely the question of a bounty on hemp. There is no doubt, if all our information is reliable, that western Canada can grow a first class quality of hemp. I do not know about Saskatchewan, but I have information that it can be grown in Manitoba and Alberta at least, and my hon. friend to my left (Mr. Evans) says that it can be grown equally well in Saskatchewan. As a matter of fact, I have been through the west and have had bonfires pointed out to me by men who know the west, and who have told me that that straw was being burned on soil that would produce an excellent quality of hemp for the manufacture of twine of all kinds. The Minister of Agriculture put his finger on the sore spot in connection with this whole matter, and it -is this, that the gentlemen behind this scheme cannot get the necessary financing. Why is that? The hemp that would be grown in this country would, for a considerable period at least, be used in the manufacture of binder twine. Now why is it that you cannot manufacture binder twine in this country? Solely because the market for Canadian binder twine has been handed over to the Consumers' Cordage Company in the United States, where they have a closed market of 110,000,000 people. The binder twine industry in Canada is in exactly the same position as any other type of industry in this country. You cannot find a group of financiers anywhere who will invest money in industry in this country to-day, because they do not know what may happen to that industry the day after they get it established. Conditions have been so uncertain in relation to all types of industry that you can no longer get a man to invest a dollar in industiy of any character in this country. They are all anxious to get their money out of industry and put it into bonds or something else where they feel it will be reasonably safe, if they do not take their money out of the country altogether. If you take hold of this question as it should be taken hold of, and give the manufacturer of binder twine and the producer of the hemp from which that binder twine is manufactured the reasonable degree of protection that Canadian industry requires, the whole problem will be solved; the farmers

Supply- Trade and Commerce
on the prairies will grow hemp, which will be manufactured in the towns near by, giving employment to their own people and providing revenue for themselves. There is the place to start. So long as you go on tinkering with these things, so long as no reliance can be placed on governmental action, so long as things are in this unsettled state, we shall be in the position that my hon. friend from Nova Scotia referred to when he said that we have spent fifteen years tinkering with this question and have got nowhere.


Mr. GEARY:: Was no money paid under this item last year?


James Alexander Robb: Nothing paid under the bounty. The item we are considering is for administration.


Mr GEARY:: I do not see any item in the Auditor General's report for the disbursements last year. There were no disbursements last year?


James Alexander Robb: Not under the bounty.


Mr. BROWN:: Discussing the hemp proposition, I think we should try to keep our feet to the ground and not take an extreme position either one way or the other. I do not think there is any question that in parts of the three prairie provinces, in eastern and northern Manitoba and probably in the northern part of Alberta and Saskatchewan, hemp can be grown satisfactorily, but we must try to keep in mind the purposes for which this hemp will be used, and 'how it will be used. The hon. member for East Algoma has spoken of it as being used for binder twine. I think we may just as well disabuse our minds of that idea right at the start. Some investigation has been made into that matter, and it has been found that the hemp is not suitable for binder twine. Mr. R. A. Hoey, the member for Springfield in the last parliament, had occasion to get into correspondence with the University of Wisconsin, and they gave him the results of their own experience, and as well communicated to him the results of the experiments of the International Harvester Company. That company has been spending large sums of money for years in an attempt to find a suitable substitute for the southern grown fibre, and they have not found it. Even if a situable substitute could be produced, the testimony we get is to the effect that it cannot be used in competition with much cheaper fibres that come from the south or from the Philippine islands. So far as the production of binder twine is concerned, therefore, I think we may as well leave that question aside. But undoubtedly the fibre can be used very satisfactorily for manufacturing different grades of commercial twine, and personally I would like to see such an industry established. I believe if it could be successfully established it would give agriculture just one more industry upon which we could rely. If that could be done, and if we can take care of the growing and the harvesting of the hemp in the short season we have in the fall-very often a dry fall, whereas hemp needs a wet fall for its proper treatment-I believe we might have a satisfactory industry built up on the basis of the hemp that could be grown in the prairie provinces. If I remember rightly, when Colonel Grassie and his associates were presenting their case here they asked for a particular bounty; I do not know just what the figures were, but I do remember
lUnt triVinn 4-iV* r< fTin'irornmont'e	P9TT1P
tax a u **axbxx um ^	u***v-^* ~ x r
before the House it was found that it did not meet the requests that had been made by Colonel Grassie and his associates-so much so, indeed, that they did not consider they could operate under the concessions offered.
I think we should approach this matter calmly, and the information we have been able to gather from the University of Wisconsin and the experience of the International Harvester Company is that as a binder twine proposition, we may as well put that idea aside. At the same time I believe there is a possibility, if we go at it in the right way, of developing 'What might be from the standpoint both of the producer of hemp and the manufacturer a very satisfactory industry.


Mr. MULLINS:: I do not think Colonel Grassie is now connected with the company at all. While I was out west during the adjournment, the principal of the company came to me, and I learned the personnel of the company has changed altogether. I took the matter up with Colonel Grassie many years ago. Manitoba is a province that can certainly grow the material from which binder twine can be made, and there I take issue with my hon. friend from Lisgar. We burn stacks and stacks of straw in that country that would be suitable for that purpose, and I have bought it at ridiculously low figures for my cattle. This item is practically a nominal one, and I would like to see the House pass it in order to give this industry a trial in Manitoba.


George Reginald Geary: There has not been any expenditure on this class of item heretofore.


James Alexander Robb: There was $203 spent in travelling expenses, but there has been no expenditure on account of the bounty.
Supply-Trade and Commerce


George Reginald Geary: Where is the administration
item?


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend will find it under Trade and Commerce.


[Stage Direction]
Item agreed to.
British and foreign news service, $32,000.
Henry Lumley Drayton: Any news in this?


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend will recall that this is part of an agreement which was entered into. The contract with Reuters expires on July 31, 1926, but we are asking for the vote because we may be able to renew the contract with them. My hon. friend and those hon. members who were in the last House will remember that the contract provides for the transmission by cable to the United Kingdom of an average of 10,000 words monthly of Canadian news designed to promote the interests of Canada. This is to be in addition to the service which Reuters already cable to Canada from the world at large, which they undertake to maintain at its average present length. They also engage to disseminate generally throughout the United Kingdom, the British dominions, and elsewhere mail news calculated to arouse and maintain interest in Canada and Canadian activities, commercial, financial, industrial and agricultural. They send us back clippings to satisfy the department that they are doing that. I have a record here that from August to December, 1923, when the service was introduced, they sent us 2,203 clippings; from January, 1924, to January, 1925, 10,772, and from February 1, 1925, to February 28, 1926, 10,750. The total number of clippings was 23,725, divided in the last named year as follows: Agriculture, 1,493; Finance, 1,288; Immigration, 1,534; Mines, 373; Railways and Canals, 1,262; miscellaneous items, 14,225.


Richard Burpee Hanson: The government could very well make a saving by cutting out the whole amount of this item. So far as I have been able to observe, we get no very tangible result in the way of dollars and cents from this grant. It was put in originally, as I recollect, at the instance of the Prime Minister-I believe I am correct in stating that- but the country has never received value for the expenditure. It is on a par with the grant that used to be given to the Canadian Press but which the predecessor in the office of the Finance Minister cut out a year or two ago. There was never any row about that, and there has never been any deficiency in the newspapers on that account. The only result

has been the saving of that $50,000 formerly made to the Canadian Press. I think this is a time when the government should pare such extraneous services and grants as this. I therefore suggest to the minister that he withdraw this vote.


James Alexander Robb: Well, Mr. Chairman, that is one view. I am not disposed to quarrel with my hon. friend on the subject, but I would point out that representations have been made to us by people associated with the Canadian Pacific Railway, the Canadian National Railway, banks, and mining institutions of Canada, that we do not sufficiently advertise Canada overseas, that Australia advertises far more than Canada does, and they have represented to us that we should increase this grant rather than diminish it. It is pretty fair and pretty cheap advertising.


James Dew Chaplin: Would the minister confer with the Minister of Finance and see if he could not cut this item out?


Richard Burpee Hanson: He would be doing a favour to the taxpayers of this country.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend is quite right in saying that the matter was introduced and brought to the attention of the government by the Prime Minister of the day, but it so happened that the Prime Minister was the Right Hon. Sir Robert Borden. It was reported on by Mr. M. E. Nichols, a journalist of experience, at that time Director of Information, the draft agreement having been approved by the Department of Justice. Final action by the government was, however, deferred pending further discussion of the subject with Sir Roderick Jones, Chairman and Managing Director of Reuters, who was expected to be in Ottawa in August of that year to attend the Imperial Press conference. It was in September, 1920, therefore, that the matter was taken up by the Right Hon. Mr. Meighen, the Prime Minister. Sir Roderick laid the proposal fully before Mr. Meighen at an interview in the Prime Minister's office. Mr. Meighen expressed his appreciation of the value to Canada of such a scheme of news publicity, and doubtless would have dealt with it in practical detail had not other pressing public duties prevented his consideration.


James Dew Chaplin: The minister
told us a minute ago that the contract had about expired.


James Alexander Robb: The contract expires on July 31 of this year.


James Dew Chaplin: It has served its purpose. Surely we can get rid of some of these things. They are cropping up every day, and we might as well start now and get rid of one of them.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There is another reason.
Once an item of this character gets into the estimates it takes several tons of dynamite to get it out. The Minister of Trade and Commerce has a chance to do his friend the Minister of Finance a good turn. Do not let him get away from the opportunity to save a little money for the country. Vote one-half of it to 31st July, or if necessary one-fourth, but let us try to save some money here tonight..


James Dew Chaplin: If the minister wants a hand I will move to strike it out.


James Alexander Robb: No, my colleague will move it.


Mr. DUNNING:: I do not think my first motion in this House can be a better one than that indicated by the Acting Minister of Trade and Commerce.


Richard Burpee Hanson: No, we indicated it.


Charles Avery Dunning: I move that this item be reduced by $16,000.


[Stage Direction]
Amendment agreed to.
Item as amended agreed to.
James Alexander Robb: The next item is $1,430,000 for administration of the Canada Grain Act. I understand there are a number of 9 p.m. hon. gentlemen ill who desire to speak on this item. I will therefore consent to its going over to another sitting.
Mr.. LANGWORTHY: May I say a word on that item?


James Alexander Robb: Some hon. members have asked me to defer consideration of the item until a later sitting. If my hon. friend will keep in touch with the whip we will not bring it up until he is present.


John Livingstone Brown: Does that also refer to the other two related items, as to the management and equipment of elevators?


James Alexander Robb: I think we may as well leave them all so that hon. gentlemen interested can all be present at the discussion.
Dominion Bureau of Statistics (including 1926 census), $625,000.


Mr. ROGERS:: This item will require some explanation.
Supply-Trade and Commerce


James Alexander Robb: I was just going to make an explanation. I understand that under the act we have to take a census every five years in the three western provinces, and the additional amount this year is to provide for that extra expenditure. This vote provides for:
General contingencies of the bureau, including salaries of temporary employees, criminal and vital statistics, travelling expenses of the Dominion statistician and his staff; freight and express; telephone and telegraph ; newspapers and periodicals; rental of
tabulating and sorting machines	
Completion of 1921 census (6th Census).. ..
1926 Census
Field work (actual cost of 1921 census of prairie provinces, plus 15 per cent).. ..
We have added fifteen per cent to the cost of the 1921 census of the prairie provinces, and the amount is $415,000. There is also the temporary staff at Ottawa, $80,000, and contingencies and stationery, $10,000.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understand that this
census is taken in the three prairie provinces under an act, passed some years ago, and it has the effect of automatically increasing the annual subsidies to these provinces every five years, instead of every ten years, as is the case in other provinces. Why should that position obtain? It is an unfair advantage that the three prairie provinces have over the other provinces. The other provinces have to wait until the decennial census is taken before they get any increase. Of course it may be urged that this is a part of a bargain, but I do not see how it can be a bargain, because they were not provinces, as I recollect it, at the time this legislation was passed.
Is it the intention of the government to follow the practice adopted in 1921 by the late government when census enumerators were appointed and to see that those enumerators are selected, wherever possible, other things being equal, from returned soldiers? That practice was adopted in New Brunswick with very marked success, and the men who did the work did it as well as it was ever done- perhaps better. I commend the suggestion to my hon. friend-it is in his department-that the enumerators for the census be not employed simply because they are supporters of a certain party, but that returned soldiers be appointed.


James Alexander Robb: I think the commissioner will probably follow the same procedure as was adopted in 1921.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But will he be
allowed to do it?


James Alexander Robb: I can assure my hon. friend I have not time to interfere with him.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Henry Lumley Drayton: But there are others.


James Alexander Robb: In answer to the question of my hon. friend (Mr. Hanson) as to why the census is taken every five years instead of every ten years, it is because in 1918 an act was put through providing for it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: But previous to that time was there any such legislation?


James Alexander Robb: There has been a decennial census for some time. I imagine Sir George Foster brought it in because of demands made from western Canada, and it is quite a reasonable proposition. The drift of immigration coming into the country has been going largely to the western provinces. They have on that account to provide additional schools and highways and additional expenses are involved in that country.


Richard Burpee Hanson: If we take to heart what we have heard from our friends on my left for the last three or four years-not this year, but previously-we would imagine that the country was going to the bow-wows. I listened to the lamentation of the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) when he sat in the centre of the House, that the western country was going behind. Has there been a natural increase in the population of western Canada since this government came into power, or is it on a par with the other provinces in that respect? I see no reason why the prairie provinces should have the census taken every five years, any more than the other provinces should. If they have it, we should have it. I do not see why any province should have it. It is an additional expense the country should dispense with, and the proper course is to repeal the act and save half a million dollars.


Mr. BURY:: May I ask whether all the census enumerators have not already been appointed?


James Alexander Robb: I really do not know, but I imagine they have been, because they have to get dawn to work very soon.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: I understand every one of them has been appointed.


Robert Rogers: Are they appointed by the Civil Service Commission?


James Alexander Robb: No, I think not.


Henry Lumley Drayton: On whose recommendation? Are they appointed by order in council?


James Alexander Robb: I do not think so.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Are they appointed by the local member, or does the defeated1 candidate send in his recommendation to the patronage committee?


James Alexander Robb: I do not know that there is
such a thing as a patronage committee. I understand the commissioner has followed the same course as he did in 1921.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: I understand the minister
made the appointments.


James Alexander Robb: Well, I have not found any
order in council.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: That is the information I
have.


James Alexander Robb: Has the hon. member a nomination to make?


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: I had one or two applications to make, and I was instructed every position was filled.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I made a suggestion to
the minister which he ought to consider seriously, and! that is the repeal of the act providing for the census in the prairie provinces every five years. He will save the taxpayers of the country at least half a million dollars every five years, and that will go down as an eternal monument to him. The matter is worthy of consideration, if he can save the treasury that much money every year.


Mr. ROSS (Moose Jaw):: The population
of western Canada has not been going down; it has been increasing continuously. This census will show a big increase. I think the act should remain as it is, and that we should have opr five-year census. The longer this government stays in power the more immigration will come into the country.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think I said that the population of the three prairie provinces had been going down, but I quoted the representatives from the prairie provinces in the last three years who stated that such was the case.


John Gordon Ross: The hon. gentleman spoke of lamentations. The only lamentations we have heard have been from the party sitting to the left of the Speaker.


Sir HENRI:: DRAYTON: The hon. member, who has been here such a short time, does not know anything about the history of his province.


Charles Avery Dunning: He was bom in it.

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Henry Lumley Drayton: Here is another gentleman who does not know anything about what is 'being said here. He only knows the Progressives on the public platform when he calls them names. But I really rose to ask whether the answer of the minister is really serious when he refers to the legislation of 1918 as the legislation which made necessary this expenditure. I am inclined to think that the legislation of 1918 was merely legislation which had to do with the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, and which simply continued an existing statutory requirement. It is entirely wrong to proceed on the idea that this is a new thing.


Robert Rogers: It is part of the legislation of 1905.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am inclined to think so.


John Wesley Edwards: May I ask
when these enumerators begin their work?


James Alexander Robb: The act respecting the Dominion Bureau of Statistics provides that a census of population and agriculture in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta shall be taken by the bureau under the direction of the minister, on a date in the month of June in the year 1926, to be fixed by the Governor in Council, and every tenth year thereafter.


John Wesley Edwards: They begin their work in June. Can the minister tell me how many officials or enumerators are required for this work, and how many have already been appointed?


James Alexander Robb: The following is a report of the Civil Service Commission on the subject:
The Civil Service Commission has under consideration the question of the selection of the necessary staff for the taking of the quinquennial census for the prairie provinces, 1926. These appointments are of a temporary nature and consist of two divisions: (1) The census commissioners and census enumerators located dn the prairie provinces; approximately 2,400 census enumerators will be required, whose term of employment will not usually exceed thirty days. There will also be about fifty-five census commissioners, one for each census district, who will be employed for a period not exceeding six months. The census commissioners and enumerators for the Dominion census of 1921 were exempted under section 38a from the provisions of the Civil Service Act, P.C. 2526, October 23, 1920, and the selection of these employees was left to the Department of Trade and Commerce, P.C. 1205, April 12, 1921.
It is recommended that a similar procedure be followed in the case of the quinquennial census for the prairie provinces 1926, and that the temporary census commissioners and enumerators be exempted from the operation of the Civil Service Act, and the selection of these employees be made by the Department of Trade and Commerce.
On this occasion the procedure of 1921 is being followed.


John Wesley Edwards: Have any of these officials been appointed yet?


James Alexander Robb: I fancy they have.


John Wesley Edwards: How many?


James Alexander Robb: I hope they have all been appointed, because they must get to work and it is necessary that they be instructed first.


John Wesley Edwards: They do not get to work until June.


James Alexander Robb: Yes, but they must be schooled in April. My hon. friend knows that in every census a man must be sent from the department to instruct the commissioners in the rules, and these commissioners must meet the various enumerators.


John Wesley Edwards: If they have been appointed already for the purpose of this schooling to which the minister refers, that brings up another point. On whose recommendation have they been appointed, and do these recommendations come from the various localities? I might ask the hon. gentleman (Mr. Dunning) who sits immediately behind the Minister of Finance to inform the committee, if he can, whether any of these officials were appointed in Regina a short time ago, and if so, how many?


James Alexander Robb: Probably my hon. friend was not following me while I was reading the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission that the procedure of 1921 be followed.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: If the appointments are made by the minister's department, who in that department makes them?


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Coats makes them on the recommendations he receives, and naturally he will consult with the people in that part of the country.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: I understand from Mr. Coats that he does not make the appointments. I gathered from what the minister read and from what he stated, that his own department makes them, and not the Bureau of Statistics, although I may be wrong in that regard.


James Alexander Robb: When the matter was brought to my attention I asked an officer in my department to consult with the representatives of western Canada and have the nominations made so as to get the matter concluded. I have not heard from him since.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: That does not meet my point.


James Alexander Robb: I do not think my hon. friend was here in 1921 when the nominations were made at that time.

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Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: My point is that if the nominations rest with the department, whether the department obtains recomendations from the Bureau of Statistics or not, the appointments have been made by the department. I want to know who actually made those appointments or who has knowledge of their making.


James Alexander Robb: If my hon. friend has recommendations to make and the positions are not all filled, I shall be glad to consider suggestions.


Charles Avery Dunning: One practical suggestion was made by an hon. member opposite with reference to the vote before the House, namely, that the amount might be reduced by means of an amendment to the act wh\h provides for a quinquennial census in th* prairie provinces, in place of the decennial census which is taken throughout the rest of Canada. I have looked into the matter and I find that the quinquennial census in the prairie provinces is provided for in the acts creating those provinces. Constitutional lawyers in the House will correct me if I am wrong, but in my opinion this House cannot now amend those acts. An imperial act is necessary to amend the autonomy legislation creating the western provinces inasmuch as they are now under the provisions of the British North America Act.


John Wesley Edwards: They did not hesitate when the autonomy acts were passed to override the spirit and letter of the British North America Act.


Robert Rogers: What purpose does the expenditure of this $500,000 really accomplish? What service is rendered by the taking of the census? The three prairie provinces get an annual subsidy from the Dominion of some five or six hundred dollars. Would it not be better to vote that money to the provinces direct instead of spending it in an idle manner, such as is proposed, for patronage purposes? Give us the $500,000 direct. It would be of greater benefit to the provinces than it can be when spent in the way suggested.


James Alexander Robb: As the Minister of Railways (Mr. Dunning) has pointed out, this matter is subject to the British North America Act, and any amendment can be made only by an imperial statute. My hon. friend (Mr. Rogers) asks me what service is accomplished. Well, the Department of Finance will know that next year when an additional claim is put in.
(Mr. Robb.]


Robert Rogers: But you can save an added subsidy by dividing the $500,000 among the provinces now.


James Alexander Robb: Does the hon. member suggest an amendment to the act?


Mr. WHITE (Mount Royal):: The Minister of Railways has said that we have an act of parliament which is subject to amendment only by imperial legislation, in respect of the quinquennial census. What disturbs my mind is this question:	What purpose is served by
taking a five-year census rather than a census every ten years? Does it mean that if the population increases in the western provinces we shall increase the subsidy accordingly?


Charles A. Stewart: That is so.


Robert Smeaton White: If the result of taking that census does not involve some such readjustment, why do we take it? If it is merely a duplication of work, I say the expenditure is excessive and unnecessary. If, on the other hand, the statute which we have validated in this House requires amendment, and can only be amended by act of the imperial parliament, I submit we should take appropriate steps to that end. Is not that reasonable? For what purpose are we voting this money? I care not whether the census enumerators entertain political opinions favourable to that side or to this side of the House; that does not appeal to me in any way; what I am thinking of is the unnecessary expenditure of public money. If we can prevent we should do so.


Mr. MACLEAN (York):: Mr. Chairman,
last night I heard the hon. member for Argen-teuil (Sir George Perley) announce that we could get the British North America Act amended at any time we desired. Here is an opportunity to ask the imperial parliament to take action. Then we could save the money covered by this vote.


Charles Avery Dunning: I had no other intention than to state what were the facts with regard to the possibility of this parliament repealing the provisions affecting the quinquennial census in the prairie provinces. As to what the quinquennial census accomplishes with respect to those provinces, I read from the Saskatchewan act, section 18, subsection B:
A census of the said proivnce shall be taken in every fifth year reckoning from the general census of 1901, and an approximate estimate of the population shall be made at equal intervals of time between each quinquennial and decennial census; and whenever the population, by any such census or estimate, exceeds 250,000, which shall be the minimum upon which the said allowance shall be calculated, the amount of the said allowance shall be increased accordingly, and so on, until the population has reached 800,000 souls.

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Then of course the terms of the general act apply. Now, as to the effect of the coming census, may I say with respect to the province with which I am most familiar that at the census of 1921, if I recollect correctly, the population of Saskatchewan was 757,810. On the basis mentioned in the section which I have read, which provides for an estimate to be made by the Bureau of Statistics at equal periods between the quinquennial and decennial census, we are now being paid a subsidy on a population of 828,600, so that an increase in population in two and a half years from 757,000 to .828,000 has been recognized by the authorities who have to do with this matter. I am satisfied from mv knowledge of conditions in the west, and I feel sure that other members on both sides of the House will bear me out, that the 1926 census will demonstrate a further steady growth in proportion to the growth to which I have just been referring. As far as the item itself is concerned, we cannot change it; we are bound by statute to provide for it. As to appealing to the imperial parliament, I feel sure they would want to know what the provinces concerned thought about amending the conditions under which they entered confederation.


Mr. EDW  ARDS@Frontenac: I am not
quite clear why the minister brings in the imperial parliament. The bills of 1905 were passed by this parliament and as far as I know they have never been ratified by the imperial parliament. They are therefore in every sense Canadian statutes, if I understand correctly.


Charles Avery Dunning: I must leave that to the decision of the constitutional lawyers in the House.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Did the minister quote
from an imperial or federal act?


Charles Avery Dunning: An act of this parliament.


George Reginald Geary: Mr. Chairman, if the taking of the census is to establish the rate at which Saskatchewan is to be paid, it is not treating the province fairly not to take the census, so I do not think we need bother about the law. If the payment of the subsidy to Saskatchewan depends upon that, I think we should certainly let the item pass.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Hear, hear.


George Reginald Geary: I wish my good friends opposite had deferred their applause just for a moment. I was going to suggest that probably the province of Saskatchewan will be in no danger since the appointments are made.


Mr. QUINN:: May I ask the Minister of
Railways if he will show as much concern for the province of Nova Scotia with regard to the terms under which it came into confederation?


Charles Avery Dunning: Mr. Chairman, so far as I can I shall be happy to give consideration to the fairness of any matter presented to this House by any hon. member on behalf of any province.


Felix Patrick Quinn: I am glad to know it.


Richard Burpee Hanson: May I pursue that thought of the hon. member for Halifax (Mr. Quinn) a little further and ask the Minister of Railways if he will extend similar consideration to the reduction of freight rates, a subject that he dilated upon in Winnipeg the other day?


William Duff: The question is out of order.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is no doubt at all that we have to take the census, although it is not for the reason given by the hon. Minister of Railways. He need not raise any bogey about imperial acts or anything of the kind. AVe take the census because it is provided for by our own law. But notwithstanding that fact, with great deference to the minister I submit that the item can be discussed. For example, we might discuss why it is that the amount is increased $85,000 over the grant made in 1921. What is the reason for the increase?


James Alexander Robb: The estimate was made up by the census commissioner who has been taking the census for a number of years. He added 15 per cent to the previous estimate.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But what is the basis of the 15 per cent?


James Alexander Robb: I assume he estimates it on the growth of the population. He does not necessarily spend the money.


Henry Lumley Drayton: What is the rate of remuneration paid?


James Alexander Robb: The rates and classification are the same as in 1921: Census clerks: grade 1, $780; grade 2, $840; grade 3, $900. Census audit clerks: grade 1, $960; grade 2, $1,020; grade 3, $1,080. As in the Dominion census of 1921, it is intended that eligibles shall be appointed as census clerks grade 1 and census audit clerks grade 1, and be promoted to the higher grades as their services warrant.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But that has to do with the office clerks here, as I followed my hon. friend.


James Alexander Robb: Possibly.

Supply-Trade and Commerce


Henry Lumley Drayton: If he will just remember what his learned colleague the Minister of Railways was telling him, what is he going to pay the commissioners in the first place, and then the enumerators?


Charles Avery Dunning: While the minister is
looking that up, might I just read the authority for the bogey which my hon. friend-


Henry Lumley Drayton: I thought we
were rid of that. If you like, we can argue it; if the hon. member wants to kill time he can do so.


Charles Avery Dunning: This is a matter of some importance. I am not one of the learned members of the House, as is my hon. friend, but I can at least read the English language.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Hurrah.


Charles Avery Dunning: I read now from section 6 of the British North America Act, 1871, an amendment to the act which is entitled "An Act Respecting the Establishment of Provinces in the Dominion of Canada" and which empowers and sets forth the terms under which this parliament may create new provinces in Canada. Section 6 reads as follows:
Except as provided by the third section, of this act, it shall not be competent for the parliament of Canada to alter the provisions of the last-mentioned act of the said parliament in so far as it relates to the province of Manitoba, or of any other act hereafter establishing new provinces in the said Dominion, subject always to the right of the legislature of the province of Manitoba to alter from time to time the provisions of any law respecting the qualification of electors and members of the legislative assembly, and to make laws respecting elections in the said province.
As I say, I am not a constitutional lawyer, but surely the language is plain:
It shall not be competent for the parliament of Canada to alter the provisions of the last-mentioned act of the said parliament in so far as it relates to the province of Manitoba, or of any other act hereafter establishing new provinces in the said Dominion.
I am not arguing, Mr. Chairman; I am merely stating what is taken to be a fact.


Henry Lumley Drayton: As I said before, there is no necessity for raising the bogey. It is our act and we observe it.


Charles Avery Dunning: This is the British North America Act, an imperial act of 1871.


Mr. CANNON:: My hon. friend does not argue this point seriously, does he?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not know what my hon. friend is talking about. I am not arguing anything.


Lucien Cannon: If my hon. friend is not arguing Why does he not sit down?


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend-


Murray MacLaren: Mr. Chairman, I can
quite understand the reason for a quinquennial census being taken some years ago. At that time the new provinces were adding to their population rapidly, and perhaps it was an uncertain stage. It seems to me that at that time it was fair to have a quinquennial census, but now conditions are more stabilized; we have not the same rapid growth in those provinces and the occasion for such a frequent census does not now exist. Of course it is the law, but if it is to the advantage of everyone to do so, the law may be changed. I understand that the subsidy per capita increase from the Dominion government for five years amounts to less than $500,000. Perhaps the Minister of Railways would inform me of the difference in those amounts.


Charles Avery Dunning: May I be permitted?


Murray MacLaren: Yes.


Charles Avery Dunning: If the cost for the three prairie provinces is as estimated, $500,000 for the quinquennial census, the increase in each of the three prairie provinces multiplied by 80 cents per head for each of the years involved would be the aggregate sum for comparison. I cannot tell my hon. friend what that would be, but offhand one would say it would amount to more than $500,000 in the course of five years.


Murray MacLaren: I cannot say what the
amount is, only I have been informed that the actual increase would not exceed, $500,000. That may not be, but there is not much difference between the two figures, and therefore I suggest that it is very poor business to expend $500,000 for the purpose of granting the three prairie provinces another $500,000 or thereabouts. And I think it is well worth the attention of the minister to consider whether some change, which would not interfere with the grants given to the three prairie provinces, might not save a considerable sum of money.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: Just a word in regard to the quinquennial census. There were two objects in view when the legislation of 1905 was passed. The quinquennial census was enacted in that year in the first place for the purpose of fixing the representation of the new provinces. It was provided by section 6 of the act that the representation of Alberta and of Saskatchewan should be fixed at the next quinquennial census, which would be in the year 1911, and the proportion of representation was fixed by section 6. But it was only for that

Supply-Trade and Commerce
particular year, 1911, because subsection 2 oi section 6 says:
The representation of the said province shall thereafter be readjusted from time to time according to the provisions of section 51 of the British North America Act, 1867.
So that the quinquennial census, since 1911, has had nothing to do with the representation of the new provinces. That is now adjusted in accordance with section 51 of the British North America Act, which provides for adjustment after every decennial census. The other purpose of the quinquennial census was in regard to the fixing of the subsidy, but the period has arrived when that is of no effect in regard to Saskatchewan. It is provided that when Saskatchewan has a population of 800,000 there shall be no progressive readjustment of the subsidy. The last clause of section 18 .
1 U V 1UOO .
The amount of the said allowance shall be increased accordingly.
That is, from $250,000 up.
-and so on until the population has reached 800,000 souls.
There is an exactly similar provision in the Alberta act. If Saskatchewan had a population of less than 800,000, we could do nothing but take the quinquennial census, but I understand it is admitted by the Bureau of Statistics and by the government itself that there were, two and a half years ago, 829,000 souls in the province of Saskatchewan. Consequently their subsidy is fixed, as is the subsidy of every other province of Canada, so there is no necessity for a census in that province at present. In Alberta the case is different: the population of Alberta has not reached the 800,000 mark, therefore we are bound to take the census for the purpose of fixing the subsidy, but not for the purpose of representation in this House. I think the minister would be well advised to reconsider this measure and provide that no census be taken in Saskatchewan, if it be so that the population has already been ascertained as over the 800,000 mark.


Leon Johnson Ladner: The Minister of Railways has created a rather impossible barrier by the contention that any act altering the provision for the quinquennial census would have to be an imperial act. He admitted that he was not a constitutional lawyer. If he will read section 146 of the British North America Act dealing with the creation of other provinces, and then turn to the very act from which he has read, which is the British North America Act of 1871, he will see in section 2 that:
The parliament of Canada may from time to time eatablish new provinces in any territories forming for
the time being (part of tihe Dominion of Canada, but not included in any province thereof, and may, at the time of such establishment, make provision for the constitution and administration of any such province, and for the passing of laws for the peace, order, and good government of such province, and for its representation in the said parliament.
So the inherent jurisdiction rests with the parliament of Canada to make a law dealing with just such a question as that to which the minister has referred, and I submit that, apart from the contention of the last speaker with respect to the abandonment of the vote, consideration should be given to the wisdom of extending the time for taking the census and making it co-ordinate with the census taken in the other provinces.


Charles Avery Dunning: Dealing with the point made by my hon. friend from South Wellington, that the province of Saskatchewan does not now neea a quinquennial census because it has passed the 800,000 population mark, which is given in the Saskatchewan laet and in the Alberta act as the limit for change under their per capita subsidy, I would again call his attention to section 20 of the same act, which provides for compensation in lieu of the lands of these provinces which were retained by the Dominion at the time the provinces were created. There he will find:
Inasmuch as the said province will not have the public land as a source of revenue, there shall be paid iby Canada to the province by half-yearly payments, in advance, an annual sum based upon the population of the province as from time to time ascertained by the quinquennial census thereof, as follows
The population of the said province being assumed to be at present two hundred and fifty thousand.
And so on. It provides that thereafter, until such population reaches 800,000, the sum payable shall be such and such; and thereafter, until such population reaches 1,200,000 the sum payable shall be such and such. It is important therefore to continue the engagement with the province of Saskatchewan. - In quoting this in the first place I was not speaking from the point of view of the province of Saskatchewan, but merely with a desire that the House should be clear with respect to something with which I happened to be familiar. So far as the other two provinces are concerned, they have not even yet reached the 800.000 population mark, which is important to them with respect to the per capita subsidy. We must consider them also.
In regard to the point raised by my hon. friend from Vancouver South, the act from which I read, the British North America Act, 1871, was an amending act, amending the act from which my hon. friend read.


Leon Johnson Ladner: No, I read from the amending act of 1871.

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Henry Lumley Drayton: As I said before, I really think there is no necessity for anything except making speeches on this question. There is our act, and we have to live up to it, and we intend to; there is no question about that, and all this to the contrary is just so much of a bogey. The duty is upon this parliament, as I see it, to carry out this quinquennial census. If the Solicitor General had been in when I was speaking before, he would have known that I was not making an argument; I was simply saying we were bound to do it, but with his customary lightheartedness he rushed in and said something that was wrong. He is not often wrong, but we all make mistakes sometimes. But let us get down to the business of this item. I was asking the minister what the rate of remuneration was to the different gentlemen who are going to get employment. We have not yet found out how they are employed, what qualifications are required, who is recommending them, or anything else.


James Alexander Robb: The rates are to be exactly the same as in 1921. I will give my hon. friend a memorandum of the expenditure in 1921. There were 243 commissioners; their allowance was $77,500; travelling expenses and disbursements, $13,009.96; recording, $113,451.80, or a total of $203,961.76. Then for field work for the general census-


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is more extended.


James Alexander Robb: I will get that for my hon.
friend if he desires.


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend seems to have given a very excellent reason why he can assist himself as Minister of Finance. The whole cost of doing this work in the 1921 general census, when more particulars have to be taken, was only $415,000.


James Alexander Robb: Oh no.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I took that figure down, that the cost of the census work in the three prairie provinces in 1921 was $415,000.


James Alexander Robb: No. The 1921 census was the general census, and the cost of the field work was $1,184,652.10.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That is for the whole country?


James Alexander Robb: The cost of the general census of 1921 was $2,122,052.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can my hon.
friend tell me where he gets that item of $415,000 as the cost for 1921?
'[DOT]Mr. Ladner.]


James Alexander Robb: That was the estimate they
gave me for this work. The actual cost of the 1921 census in the prairie provinces was $415,000. Then there is the temporary staff at Ottawa, $80,000; contingencies, stationery, punch cards, telegrams and so forth, $10,000. This estimate of the cost of the field work anticipates approval of the rates that prevailed in 1921.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Is this correct, that $415,000 is not an exact figure at all, but merely an estimate?


James Alexander Robb: Merely an estimate.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then I do not press it. My hon. friend has not told me, for example, how many of these gentlemen who have been appointed are returned soldiers.


James Alexander Robb: I could not give that information.


Henry Lumley Drayton: That was the rule that was observed before, and we were to have the same rule obtaining this time. I think we should know whether the rule is being followed.


James Alexander Robb: I would say offhand, although I do not know, that any man in western Canada who did not follow that rule might find himself in trouble with the people in western Canada, because there is no part of Canada that contributed so largely to our effort overseas as the western prairie provinces.


William Alves Boys: Do I understand the minister to say that the cost of the last decennial census in all Canada was something over $1,000,000, and that the cost in the three prairie provinces was something over $400,000? Surely that cannot be right. The cost of taking the census in the three prairie provinces could not amount to nearly half the cost of taking the census all over Canada.


James Alexander Robb: I have this estimate given me by the statistician who conducts the census. The total expenditure for the census of 1911 was $1,316,415.35. The expenditure for the 1921 census was $2,122,052.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Is that for the field work
or was it the total expenditure?


James Alexander Robb: They did not give me that
information.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I understood the minister to say the cost of the field work for the Dominion was something over a million dollars, and that of the field work for the three prairie provinces $415,000. It seems

Supply-Trade and Commerce
incomprehensible to us that the cost of the field work for the three prairie provinces should1 be approximately 40 per cent of the whole. There must be some mistake about that, or else the rate of wages there is higher.


Charles A. Stewart: No, there is no higher rate of pay. The work is paid for at so much per head, and I have heard repeated complaints from the field met. that they do not get enough for the services they perform. It is not a question of paying so much per month, it is a question of the work performed and the names turned in.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Has there been any increase in the amount asked for in connection with the Bureau of Statistics? While I am on my feet I should like to say that while I do not avail myself very much of the activities of the bureau-and I rather think I should because I believe it is a very excellent institution-I have heard in days gone by numerous complaints from merchants, manufacturers and employers of labour that the multiplicity of the demands made by the bureau for statistics has proven to be a perfect nuisance to the office managers of those concerns. The concerns in question are threatened with dire pains and penalties if they do not fill up the forms forwarded to them and give the information asked for. Now, it is necessary for every country to have some system of statistics and these statistics are sometimes of very great value. But the difficulty probably in this case is that the Bureau of Statistics is embracing too many subjects, requiring too much information, and taking up too murih of the available time of commercial executives. I have in my mind one of the largest pulp and paper concerns of the country whose secretary is not only assistant general manager, but discharges a multitude of other duties. This gentleman tells me that the demands made upon him from time to time by the Bureau of Statistics are overwhelming. I wish the minister would give some attention to the complaint. Perhaps the existing system could be simplified. The complaint is not a new one; I know that in days gone by it has been voiced by other members on both sides of the House. Perhaps the minister would look into the matter and see if he cannot devise some method which will remove these complaints on the part of businessmen.


James Alexander Robb: I will.


Leon Johnson Ladner: Has the government under consideration negotiations with the province of Saskatchewan similar to those conducted with 14011-117J	*
Alberta as to the question of natural resources? May I ask also whether the subsidy will be paid to Alberta when it receives back its natural resources?


James Alexander Robb: The latter question might
very properly be answered. My hon. friend's first question has nothing whatever to do with this matter, although if I had the information I would willingly give it to him. I think the arrangement made with Alberta was tabled and is available to my hon. friend.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Cannot my hon. friend yet tell me how the men for this work are appointed, how many there are, and on whose recommendation they are chosen? We are voting this money; we have got to spend it, and we might just as well find out how it is to be disbursed-and how these appointments are to be made.


James Alexander Robb: I have already stated-perhaps my hon. friend was out at the time-that when the commissioner asked for recommendations I instructed my secretary to see the western men, and I have not heard from him since. I imagine the appointments have been made on the recommendations of western men. At any rate, I hope they have all been made because I do not want to be bothered with them any more. Let me say this to my hon. friend in all seriousness:	If the conditions
were reversed and my hon. friend were over here I would not challenge his judgment as to making the appointments.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I am not going to challenge my hon. friend's judgment at all. The trouble is that he has never exercised it.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I wonder if it is an offence to take a minister of this government, whose veracity I happen to believe in, at his word? It is not so many moments since the hon. gentleman said that when applications came in for appointments all he did with them was to hand them to his officials and ask them to get the views of western members thereon, that he did not want to be bothered with them. Because I take the hon. gentleman at his word his supporters are so amazed that they call "order".


Charles A. Stewart: You need not get mad, though.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There really is at least one minister of this government whose word the House can accept, but apparently
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his supporters are amazed at the fact. Now my hon. friend said he has not appointed these people; he has deferred the matter to his officials; he has given gentlemen from the west-and I do not know what gentlemen- the right of making these appointments. I do not think my hon. friend has got the list, I do not believe he knows anything about it. I am of the opinion that instead of the minister taking the responsibility of making these appointments the matter has been handed over to "the best political organization in the west" and if our reports are true "the best political organization in the west" is now represented here. Perhaps we should ask that political organization for the list; the minister has not got it. Surely the committee is entitled to a little better information than that. If my hon. friend has not made these appointments-and he says he has not-we are entitled to know who has made them. Surely the House is entitled to know a little bit about the country's business, what the qualification for these appointments were, and whether or not the returned soldier is being looked after in connection with them? My hon. friend does not know. Perhaps some of these gentlemen from the west can tell us whom they appointed.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I have no wish to hold up this vote, but in view of the practice established in 1921 when returned men were given the preference, and the statement that the department has the appointing of these men, I should like to know if the minister can state now or at some future time what percentage of the appointees are returned men.


James Alexander Robb: I shall be glad to do that
I will bring down also a complete return, if it is available, with respect to the appointments of 1921. I do not admit they are all returned soldiers, but I accept my hon. friend's word.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Nobody said they were
all returned soldiers. What was said was that, other things being equal, where returned men were available they were appointed. In my constituency that rule was carried out to the letter.
Mr. STEWART (Edmonton) Surely my hon. friend had nothing to do with the appointments in 1921.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I happened to have the
misfortune of running an election just before the census was taken, and had to run another one just after it was taken.


Hugh Guthrie: I rise to make a correction. The Minister of Railways pointed out to me that the act of 1905 in respect to Alberta and Saskatchewan, which he and I were discussing, had actually been superseded in regard to the question of provincial subsidies iby the act in amendment of the British North America Act in 1907, on an address of the Senate and the House of Commons of Canada. By the British North America Act, 1907, these subsidies are now fixed in all provinces according to population, starting with a population of 150,000, and running up to a population of 1,500,000, but with respect to Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, the quinquennial census i3 still the determining factor as to population. I see now the necessity of taking the quinquennial census, as the British North America Act, 1907, is based on the population, and the population for the three prairie provinces has to be fixed by the quinquennial census.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I do not know whether my hon. friend has yet given me the information I asked for. Can 'he not give me a list of the names? Can he not give at least the names of the commissioners who have to carry on this business? Surely there is not such a mystery about how it is being done that the information is kept secret from the minister. I am not asking for a list of a host of small employees, but I do submit that it is the easiest thing in the world to say who the commissioners are and who is responsible; for their employment. It is ridiculous thlat we should be asked to pass this item, providing, as it does, for the appointment of a whole lot of commissioners who are already appointed, not by the minister, but on the say-so of certain western gentlemen, and to pass it without the granting of a reasonable request for information.


James Alexander Robb: I will undertake to give my
hon. friend a complete list of the commissioners. He does not want the enumerators.


Henry Lumley Drayton: No.


James Alexander Robb: And if he desires it, I shall
be glad to table the list of 1921. I will take the responsibility for the nominations in my department and say frankly, "upon the recommendation of so and so."


George Brecken Nicholson: With regard to the
point raised by the hon. member (Mr. Hanson), I think we al appreciate the very excellent work the statistical branch performs, but I would urge that some consideration be given to those from whom a large variety

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of statistics are received. Anyone who has had anything to do with business organizations-and I think the Minister of Finance will agree with me in this-will realize that for ten or twelve years there has been a burden imposed on office organizations that has increased the clerical cost of carrying on the ordinary business of the country by forty to fifty per cent, due to the amount of statistics continually being asked for. In order to comply with these requests it is almost impossible for an ordinary business man to do anything else than furnish statistical records, many of which are never looked at after they are compiled, because they are of no public, service whatever. They do not accomplish anything; there is a considerable cost for compiling, printing and so on, and in reality they serve no real purpose.


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: The impression I had from the minister's statement was that he would give the western members a chance of submitting some names, and I was going to ask him if he would delay bringing down the list until I have had a chance of submitting names.


Mr. CAMPBELL:: I find myself very much out of harmony with my hon. friend in his criticism of the Bureau of Statistics. I think it is one of the best departments of the government and that it should be maintained. Speaking for the group in this section of the House, we make use of these statistics to a great extent, and I think it is very important that we should have those figures available, compiled regularly as they are, at stated intervals. They are reliable and accurate, and I would protest strongly against any effort to reduce the efficiency of that bureau. I ask the minister if there is any reduction in the estimates for the bureau itself this year. The amount for the Bureau of Statistics and the amount for the census are under the one head, and it is rather difficult to know whether there has been any reduction in the amount for the bureau itself.


George Brecken Nicholson: I appreciate the work of the Bureau of Statistics as thoroughly as my hon. friend or any other hon. member. I do not want to see the Bureau of Statistics made less efficient, but I am confident that it can in reality be made more efficient in matters of vital concern, leaving out matters of detailed statistics which can be of no public service whatever. There is not a business office in this country that is not called upon to furnish periodically all through the year a mass of details which cannot serve any public purpose. If only the essentials are
looked after, the Bureau of Statistics will be able to give my hon. friend and his friends all the information they require on matters of a public character; it will render a service to this House and to the country and will place no unnecessary burden on business organizations and executives. The statistics we got ten years ago were just as satisfactory as those which are furnished to us now; but if you go into any industrial concern in this country you will find that their office overhead has been increased forty or fifty per cent by the necessity for making this detailed information available. The gathering of detailed statistics has become a municipal, provincial and federal hobby, and I expect that when I go home I shall find a form waiting to be filled out giving the colour of my employees' hair, the shade of their eyes, and every other personal detail, however trifling. That limit will soon be reached.


James Alexander Robb: For once I find myself on a question of public importance exactly in accord with my hon. friend. I have on more than one occasion taken this matter up with the Dominion Statistician and he has replied that, while no doubt it might be annoying to some individual employer to be asked to engage a few extra clerks to provide the information, it was nevertheless a fact that the information was required.


Mr. HARRIS:: There is some merit in what the minister has to say, and those who are in business have not much fault to find with the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. But I want to say to my hon. friend (Mr. Campbell), in confirmation of the remarks of the hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson), that there is too much duplication of requests of a like nature from different branches of the bureau with regard to the operations of various industries throughout the Dominion. All hon. members are no doubt acquainted with the census of industry', the information contained in which is compiled by the bureau from information derived from industries and business institutions. After a firm has given the necessary information for this compilation, along comes the Chemical and Metallurgical branch of the bureau with a demand of the same people, who happen to be engaged in some other industry, for precisely the same information with regard to capital, plant, repairs, maintenance, raw material consumed, the amount of labour involved, the quantity of fuel and supplies of all kinds used, and so forth. All that information has already been supplied to the census of industry, and within a week it has to be given to the Chemical and
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Metallurgical branch of the bureau. The dates are not always the same, nor are the items of information in exactly the same categorical order, but the industry is put to a good deal of trouble in getting the facts and figures called for.
The hon. member (Mr. Nicholson) is on perfectly safe ground. In my opinion the time has come for a co-ordination of all efforts of the various departments of the Bureau of Statistics, in order to obviate all the trouble to which industry and business concerns are put in supplying information. We are obliged to supply the reports asked for; if they are not provided, a penalty ensues. The same information which is given to the Bureau of Statistics is given, we find, to the Department of Labour.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Let us abolish that.


Joseph Henry Harris: That might not be a bad idea. I may inform the minister that businessmen generally have expressed the view on many occasions that there should be some consolidation of these statistics. I know of one industry which has been obliged to forward three times over to the federal government, in the course of one year, the same information in different forms. For example, the Department of Labour asks for a weekly return showing the number of employees, male and female, together with a statement as to the hours they work, and when you come to the census of industry you find detailed information demanded along the same line, notwithstanding that you have given all the facts already. The time has come when the bureau would be well advised to co-ordinate these multifarious activities of the different departments.
There is another important point that must not be lost sight of. There is a head of one branch who has to do with the chemical and metallurgical industries, and he is an expensive official, and when you take into account the head of the Bureau of Statistics along with that staff you have an army of civil servants involving a tremendous overhead. I cannot emphasize too often the necessity for consolidating all this work under one administration, perhaps by the Bureau of Statistics. If this were done a good many positions could be abolished and a good deal of duplication of requests eliminated.


George Eulas Foster: Is the census which is now taken merely a counting of noses, or does: it embrace all the details that are asked for in the decennial census?


James Alexander Robb: According to section 19 of the act the census of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, as in the case of the decennial census, shall consist of the following:
(a) their population and the classification thereof, as regards name, age, sex, conjugal condition, relation to head of household, nationality, race, education, wage earnings, religion, profession or occupation, and otherwise;
(h) the number of houses for habitation, whether occupied or vacant, under construction or otherwise, the materials thereof, and the number of rooms inhabited ;
(c)	the area of occupied land and its value, and its condition thereof as improved for cultivation, in fallow, in forest, unbroken prairie, marsh or waste land, and otherwise; the tenure and acreage of farms and the value of farm buildings and implements;
(d) the products of farms, with the values of such products, and the number and value of domestic animals within the preceding census or calendar year;
(e)	the municipal, educational, charitable, penal and other institutions thereof; and
(f)	such other matters as may be prescribed by the Governor in Council.
Now we have had a fairly lengthy discussion, and if my hon. friends would pass the item we could adjourn.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I should like to meet my hon. friend's request, but I want some information in regard to these commissioners. We have a frank statement from the government that they are appointed not by the government but by western members or friends, I think the minister says. Of course, these western friends must be the representatives elected to this House from the west, or the defeated candidates who ran in the Liberal interests. Am I riglu or wrui..' in that assumption?


James Alexander Robb: It is a pretty fair guess.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Will not the minister go further and say that I am right? The Minister of Public Work (Mr. King) says I am right, if I have heard him. Very well. I will put another question in connection with these gentlemen who are responsible for the appointments. Were any of them Progressives or were they all standpat Liberals?


Charles A. Stewart: You will have to examine the list.


James Alexander Robb: My hon. friend would hardly expect me to pass by the Progressives.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I take it I am
right in that, Mr. Chairman. My hon. friend says I would not expect him to pass by the Progressives. I assume that means they also have had a share in the responsibility and in the honour and glory of getting their friends jobs on this work. Going a little further, did my hon. friend entirely overlook the claims

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of the Independents and was Labour's claim also overlooked in this patronage exploitation? Supposing we take the one lonely independent from British Columbia, surely he could not have been overlooked?


Mr. NEILL:: May I inform my hon. friend that no census is being taken in British Columbia this year?


Mr. POULIOT:: May I ask my hon. friend how many Tories are seeking jobs?


Henry Lumley Drayton: My hon. friend's question is just as near the mark as might be expected; he is doing well. So we have these appointments made either on the recommendation of the sitting member, the defeated candidate or the Progressive gentleman who happens to be here. Under those circumstances, Mr Chairman. I think we should have information which will show the names of each one of those appointees and the name of the gentleman who appointed him. Then I think we would be able to apply his political colour, and to place the responsibility in the right quarter if we find that the appointment ought not to have been made. I would suggest to my hon. friend that he think that over and bring us down the list to-morrow.


Mr. HEAPS:: The hon. gentleman having
raised the question he may as well get an answer. We do not want any patronage, and if it was offered we would not take it either from the Liberals or from the Conservatives.


George Brecken Nicholson: I should like the minister seriously to consider the advisability of consolidating all the statistical branches in Ottawa. As a further evidence of my confidence in the Dominion Bureau of Statistics as presided oveir by the Chief Statistician, I am satisfied that if industry were only called upon by the Chief Statistician they would readily respond. But I have in mind what one of my Toronto colleagues referred to, the return that is made to three separate departments, the Income Tax department, the Labour department and the Bureau of Statistics. We shall soon come to an item of $100,000 for printing. We do not print nor do we compile these statistics for nothing, and in the final analysis it is simply a duplication of work. I believe the minister is anxious to economize, and I commend this to his attention as an opportunity for saving a very large sum of money.


James Alexander Robb: Let me say again that I concur absolutely in what my hon. friend says, and I should like him to-morrow to give me the names of those three departments so I may check them back to the bureau.


William Alves Boys: Mr. Chairman, I understand
that the minister is going to furnish a list of the various census commissioners. Reference has already been made to the appointment of returned men to these positions. I am mainly concerned with their appointment, I do not care a rap what their politics may be. There is legislation providing that returned men, other things being equal, should get certain appointments. I see no reason in the world why in the case of census commissioners and enumerators the same rule should not prevail I think before this item passes the minister should let us have that list. I do not know why we should not also have a list of some of the more subordinate officials. I understand there is a commissioner for every electoral district, so the list would not be at all lengthy. I think we should be able to find out whether the appointees are returned men. I uo not say that in every case returned men were appointed in 1921, but if proper consideration was not given them the government of that day would have to take the responsibility, as the government of to-day will have to take it now. But I do think we ought to be able to get such a list before this item passes, and therefore I would ask the minister to allow it to stand until he brings down the list that he has already promised the committee.


James Alexander Robb: I should like to make some
progress. I have already promised to bring down the list of 1921 and the last list. We may as well pass this item. I give my hon. friend my word that I will bring the list down.


William Alves Boys: I do not doubt the minister's word for one moment. I concur entirely in what has been said about his integrity. That is not my point at all. I submit we ought to have the list before the item passes, so that if we desire we may make some observations in connection with it.


James Alexander Robb: May I point out to my hon. friend that the civil government vote for this same department will afford him the opportunity he desires.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But, Mr. Chairman, my hon. friend will readily see that the vote under civil government cannot possibly cover the commissioners appointed under this vote.


James Alexander Robb: But I am undertaking to bring the list down.


Henry Lumley Drayton: But my hon. friend will see that under the circumstances there is no chance of discussing it. For example, we might have a little question as
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to the exact stripe of politics of some of the noble supporters of these gentlemen that have been appointed under this item. I would suggest that my hon. friend let this stand. We have had a pretty good discussion and now we only need the list. It may be perfectly innocuous, but at least it will be interesting.


Mr. CAHILL:: And it would open up the question again in good shape.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then what is my hon. friend afraid of?


Frank S. Cahill: Nothing, not even of the opposition.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Then I see nothing in his suggestion. Of course, he may be very much disappointed here because unfortunately owing to his geographical limitations he has had nothing to do with the list. Under the circumstances I would suggest that the committee rise and report progress.


James Alexander Robb: Mr. Chairman, I should like again to plead with my hon. friend. It is only half past ten and I think it is a fair compromise that we should pass this item and go home. I want to ask my hon. friend who is now leading the opposition (Sir Henry Drayton) and the gentleman who is sitting beside him, both of whom have had considerable experience in administration, how far it is going to get either party when I bring down the list of 1921 and the list of this year and my friends on both sides of the House debate their contents? Presumably it will open up a debate that will be neither very instructive nor very interesting. We might as well pass this item and adjourn.


Henry Lumley Drayton: We are not considering the vote of 1921; that list is not even in order for the purposes of a-may I use that word "bogey" again? Someone was angry because I used that word before. I crave the permission of the Solicitor General (Mr. Cannon) to use it again. The bogey of the list of 1921 is used for what purpose? It gives us something to consider, as to whether it will pay us to ask for this list as well. We have nothing to hide about the list of 1921.


James Alexander Robb: And we have nothing to hide about this list.


Henry Lumley Drayton: As it is used in that way, Mr. Chairman, I insist the more strongly upon the production of that list. We will take full responsibility for everything that happened in 1921. Those appointments were criticised; there was a great deal of talk
TSir Henry Drayton.J
when those lists of 1921 were being considered, with charges of patronage levelled against us, and we have gone through it all. Now it is the turn of my hon. friends. It is their vote, and it is something which has to do particularly with their vote. It has so much to do with it that my. hon. friend the minister undertakes to produce it, but it cannot be properly discussed with the item closed.


James Alexander Robb: I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.


George Reginald Geary: I think I had the floor before the minister made his motion. I wanted to ask on this item if the minister, when he sent to his friends in the prairie provinces requests for recommendations for appointments in connection with this census, pointed out that a desirable qualification for the position was that of being a returned man?


James Alexander Robb: I have the qualifications which were given me by the census enumerator. I have not them here; they are in my desk.


George Reginald Geary: I only wanted to bring this to the attention of the minister.
Item stands.
Progress reported.
On motion of Mr. Robb the House adjourned at 10.35 p.m.
Wednesday, March 24, 1926