1926-03-18

QUESTIONS

[Stage Direction]
(Questions answered orally are indicated by an .asterisk.)

Mr. MANION:: 1.	Was an order in council passed on the 7th of September last, prohibiting the importation of whiskey and gin unless they had been (manufactured for at least two years?
2.	Was said order in council amended later so as not to apply to gin, and also as not to apply to whiskey ordered previous to October 1, 1925?
3.	What other orders in council dealing with this matter have been passed since that date?
4.	What were the reasons for the alterations in these orders in council?


Hon. Mr. BOIVIN :: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.

Canada-West Indies Agreement
3.	Order in Council P.C. 1942, dated 10th November, 1925.
4.	Alterations recommended on representation that numerous orders were placed for spirits prior to the date of the first Order in Council, September 7, 1925, P.C. 1542, and that some of the spirits so ordered were then in transit to Canada; also that no restrictions should be made in regard to properly rectified gin for the reason that it is not improved by maturity as is the case of gin distilled by the pot still process.


MR. PIERRE POIRIER
Mr. DOUCET:: 1.	Was Mr. Pierre Poirier dismissed from the position of postmaster of Little Caso&padia, Bona venture county, Quebec ?
2.	Was a complaint laid against said Mr. Poirier?
3.	Who laid the complaint?
4.	Was an investigation held, and when?
5.	If so, who held the investigation?
6.	What was the finding of the inquiry?
7.	Has the department made a new appointment?


Hon. Mr. LAPOINTE:: 1.	Yes.
2.	Yes.
3.	The member for the constituency.
4.	Yes, 27th January, 1926.
5.	J. A. Nadeau, 'barrister, Quebec.
6.	Commissioner Nadeau found postmaster guilty of active political partisanship.
7.	Temporary arrangements have been made for the management of the post office. The vacancy is at present being advertised and the eventual permanent appointment will be made by the Civil Service Commission.


QUESTION PASSED AS ORDER FOR RETURN
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: 1.	How many tons of grain and grain products did the Canadian National railways haul in western territory to the head of the lakes during the calendar year 1925 ?
2.	In making this haul, what was the resultant total of tons of this traffic carried one mile?
3.	What was the average length of haul of this traffic ?
4.	What additional total gross revenues would have been earned had this traffic been carried under existing rates on similar traffic in the United States?
5.	How many tons of grain and grain products did the Canadian National railways haul in western territory to Vancouver in the year 1925?
6.	In making this haul, what was the resultant total of tons of this traffic carried one mile?
7.	What was the average length of haul of this traffic ?
8.	What additional total gross revenues would have been earned had this traffic been carried under existing rates on similar traffic in the United States?
9.	What was the total percentage of grain and grain products hauled in western territory to the entire tonnage of that territory in 1925?

10.	What percentage of the entire ton-mileage in the western territory in the year 1925, did the carriage of grain and grain products entail?
11.	What was the percentage of the total revenue earned in western territory in 1925 by the carriage of grain and grain products?
12.	What was the average rate per ton-mile earned by such traffic in said territory and year?


CANADA-WEST INDIES TRADE AGREEMENT
[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance) moved that the House go into committee tomorrow to consider the following proposed resolution:-
Resolved, That it is expedient to introduce a measure to approve of the agreement dated the sixth day of July, 1925, between the government of the Dominion of Canada and the governments of certain of His Majesty's colonies in the West Indies, which agreement is termed "Canada-British West Indies-Bermuda-British Guiana-British Honduras Trade Agreement, 1925," and to provide:-
1.	That after the said agreement is brought into force, and so long as it remains in force, goods mentioned in the said agreement, the produce or manufacture of any of the colonies parties to the said agreement, which are conveyed without transshipment, except transshipment at a port of any of the said colonies, by ship direct into a sea or river port of Canada, shall be admitted to Canada at the rates of duties provided in the said agreement.
2.	That the tariff concessions covered by the said agreement to he extended to goods the produce or manufacture of any of the said colonies shall be so extended with respect to any one or more of the said colonies which may have ratified the said agreement on and after a day to be fixed by proclamation of the Governor in Council, which proclamation shall be published in the Canada Gazette.
3.	That subject to the provisions of the Customs Tariff, 1907, the Governor in Council may, by order in council, extend the said advantages to goods the produce or manufacture of any British country.
4.	That the operation of all laws inconsistent with the giving to the provisions of the said agreement and of any act that may be founded on this resolution their full effect shall from time to time be suspended to the extent of such inconsistencies.
5.	That subject to the ratification of the said agreement by the various colonies which are parties thereto, and to the fulfilment of their undertaking to make the contributions on their behalf as specified therein, the Governor in Council be empowered to make such arrangements as may be necessary to carry out the provisions of the said agreement relating to the establishment of steamship services between Canada and the colonies concerned, and any expenses incurred in carrying out the said agreement shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by parliament for that purpose.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to.

Mr. ROBB:: Mr. Speaker, with the consent of the House, I desire now to lay on the table copies of the Canada-West Indies

Soldier Settlement Act
trade agreement, both in English and French, so that hon. members may have an opportunity of looking over it before the motion comes up for discussion. Copies are now available in the distribution office.


ADVANCES TO SETTLERS ON CROWN LANDS
[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (for the Acting Minister of Immigration and Colonization) moved that the House go into committee to-morrow to consider the following proposed resolution:-
Resolved, That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize advances to settlers on crown lands, and to provide:-
1.	That for purposes connected with settlement, the minister may make loans to settlers on the basis of improvement of land and farm buildings erected-
(a)	to a settler who is a Canadian citizen as that term is defined in the Immigration Act, an amount not exceeding $1,000, (b) to a settler other than a Canadian citizen an amount not exceeding $500.
2.	That settlement loans under the proposed legislation shall not exceed the sum of $5,000,000 in any fiscal year, and shall be paid out of unappropriated moneys in the consolidated revenue fund.
3.	That Settlement Loan committees may .be established anywhere in Canada to report upon and recommend to the minister the suitability of a settler, and of any parcel of crown land, and to advise the minister as to the amount of loan to be made and how it should be expended, and such committee shall consist of not less than two nor more than three, persons in the employ of the Dominion government or of any provincial government, such persons to be nominated by the minister, one of whom shall be the Dominion lands agent or the provincial crown lands agent, as the case may be, for the district in which the settler is located, and no salary or remuneration additional to that which he otherwise receives shall be paid to members of such committee.
4.	That no settlement loan shall be made unless recommended by a Settlement Loan committee, and unless approved by the minister, nor until the applicant ' has been recommended by a committee as a suitable settler and the land as suitable for settlement for agricultural purposes, and all settlement loans shall be expended under the direction of the minister.
5.	That no settlement loan shall be made upon the security of improvements upon any provincial crown land, unless the province by appropriate legislation, has provided that the improvements upon the security of which any such loan is made shall be subject to a first charge for the amount of such loan with interest, and that no patent shall be issued for the said land until such loan with interest is repaid in full.
6.	That the payment of principal shall be made in annual instalments extending over a period of not more than ten years from the date the settlement loan is made, the first payment to become due and payable two years from the date of the settlement loan, provided that the settler may at any time repay the whole of the settlement loan with interest to date of payment, and all loans shall bear interest at the rate of five per cent per annum, payable on the respective dates upon which instalments of principal fall due.
7.	That when a settlement loan has been made upon the security of improvements upon Dominion crown lands, the patent shall not issue until the loan and all interest charges thereon have been paid in full. [DOT]
8.	That if a provincial government, not having suit-ble crown lands available, acquires by purchase suitable
lands for settlement under the provisions of this legislation, the minister may pay to a provincial government a sum not exceeding one-half of the interest on the purchase price of such lands, reckoned at five per centum per annum, for a period not exceeding two years from the date of settlement.
9.	That the Governor in Council may, on the recommendation of the minister, make regulations to carry out these provisions, and the minister shall make an annual report to parliament of all operations under the proposed legislation.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac):: Who is the Acting Minister of Immigration?


Mr. MACKENZIE KING:: The Hon. Mr Stewart.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (for the Acting Minister of Immigration and Colonization) moved that the House go into committee to-morrow to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved, That it is expedient to amend The Soldier Settlement Act, 1919, and to provide,-
1.	That notwithstanding anything in the act, the board shall be empowered upon the application of a settler who has agreed to purchase any land from the board, who has not abandoned his land, whose agreement with the board has not been terminated or rescinded, and who has not repaid his indebtedness to the board, and where there has been a decrease or depreciation in the market value of such land not the result of neglect or mismanagement on the part of the settler, to make provision for the revaluation of the said land.
2.	That application for revaluation shall be considered only when made by a settler residing on and himself farming the said land, and shall be submitted to the district superintendent of the Soldier Settlement Board for the district within which the said land is situated.
3.	That the application shall be supported by
affidavit on forms supplied by the board setting out the original	purchase	price of the	land and	the
value of improvements effected since the establishment of the settler thereon, and by a written statement of the settler setting forth his belief as to present value of the land and his reasons therefor, and the names and addresses of any persons whom the settler proposes as witnesses to the present value; and the district superintendent shall consider the application and material in support and make report and recommendation thereupon to the board.
4.	That if	the board and settler agree upon	theamount of depreciation in value of the said land such amount shall be credited by the board to the settler's account as on the standard date in 1925 and upon the settler's account being so credited, the balance then	owing to	the board by	the settler	forall purposes	shall, at	the discretion	of the board,
be consolidated and deemed to be the settler's principal indebtedness, and the total cost of the property may be amortized over the remaining period of the loan.
Old Age Pensions
[Stage Direction]
5.	That the minister may appoint district arbitration committees having jurisdiction in such soldier settlement districts as may be necessary, each committee to consist of three members, one of whom shall be an official of the Soldier Settlement Board and one a representative of the Veterans' organization in the district; and the members of the district arbitration comjrryttee when appointed shall have all the powers and authority of a commissioner under the Inquiries Act, and expenditures necessarily incurred by any district arbitration committee shall be paid out of moneys appropriated from time to time by parliament to soldier land settlement.
6. That if the board and settler do not agree upon the amount of depreciation in value of the said land the board shall refer the matter at issue to the district arbitration committee for determination, who will thereupon fix a convenient time and place for hearing. Upon the hearing of all evidence submitted the committee shall decide upon the question in dispute, and its decision shall be final.
7.	That the district arbitration committee shall forthwith forward a copy of its decision to the board and if it be found there has been a depreciation an the value of the land purchased by the settler from the board, not resulting from neglect or mismanagement on the part of the settler, the amount of such depreciation so found shall be credited by the board as provided by resolution No. 4 in respect of amount arrived at by agreement.
He said:	His Excellency, the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the (favourable consideration of of the House.
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Hon. J. H. KING (Kootenay, Acting Minister of Labour) moved that the House go into committee to-morrow to consider the following .proposed resolution:
Resolved, That it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting Old Age Pensions, and to provide,-
1.	That the Governor in Council may make an agreement with the Lieutenant-Governor in Council of any province for the payment to such province quarterly of an amount equal to one-half of the net sum paid out during the preceding quarter by such province for pensions pursuant to a provincial statute authorizing and providing for the payment of such pensions to the persons and under the conditions hereinafter specified and regulations made under the proposed legislation.
2.	That every agreement so made shall continue in force so long as the provincial statute remains in operation or until after the expiration of ten years from the date upon which notice of an intention to determine the agreement is given by the Governor Genleral to the Lieutenant-Governor of the province with w*hich the same was made.
3.	That before any agreement so made comes into operation, the Governor in Council shall approve the scheme for the administration of pensions proposed to be adopted by the province, and no change in such scheme shall be made by the province without the consent of th6 Governor in Council.
4.	That all sums payable to any province in pursuance of any such agreement shall be payable from time to time on the certificate of the Treasury Board out of any moneys belonging to the consolidated revenue fund of Canada not otherwise appropriated, and the Governor in Council may bor-

row from time to time such sums as may be required for the purpose of making such payments.
5.	That provision shall be made for the payment of a pension to every person who, at the date of the proposed commencement of the pension:-
(a)	is a British subject, or, being a widow, was such before her marriage;
(b)	has attained the age of seventy years;
(c)	has resided in Canada for the twenty years immediately preceding the date aforesaid;
(d)	has resided in the province in which the application for pension is made for the five years immediately preceding the said date;
(e)	is not an Indian as defined by the Indian Act;
(f)	has not made any voluntary assignment or transfer of property for the purpose of qualifying for a pension.
6.	That the receipt of a pension shall not by itself constitute a disqualification from voting at any provincial or municipal election.
7.	That the maximum pension payable shall be two hundred and forty dollars yearly, which shall be subject to reduction by the amount of the income of the pensioner in excess of one hundred and twenty-five dollars a year.
8.	That provisions be made as to the credit to the pension authority of the annual value of a pensioner's residence, and the recovery of pension payments out of deceased pensioner's estate, and for the distribution of pension burden among provinces by proportionate reimbursement or proportionate reduction where the pensioner resided in more than one province or transfers his permanent residence to another province, and for ceasing payments where he transfers his residence to some place out of Canada, and the revival of his rights upon again becoming a resident of Canada^
9.	That no pension shall be subject to alienation or transfer by the pensioner, or to seizure in satisfaction of any claim against him.
10.	That on or before the thirtieth day of April in each year, the Minister of Finance shall make a full report to parliament of the operation of the agreements made pursuant to the proposed act, and of the moneys of Canada paid to /the provinces under each of the several agreements entered into pursuant thereto.
11.	That the Governor in Council shall have power from time to time, on the recommendation of the Minister of Labour, and with the approval of the Treasury Board, to make regulations, not inconsistent with the provisions of the proposed act, with regard to the pensions herein provided for, and such regulations shall be published in the Canada Gazette, and be laid before parliament.
He said:	His	Excellency, the Governor
General, having been made acquainted: with the subject- matter of this resolution recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Right Hon. ARTHUR MEIGHEN (Leader of the Opposition):: It is not customary to
debate matters upon motion to proceed into committee on a subsequent day, but as these matters are of immense consequence, perhaps the government could at least give this modicum of information. I should like if the government could give us an estimate of what the resolutions on the order paper just read will cost the revenue of Canada. I do not

Natural Resources-Alberta
expect a close estimate at all, but say within a hundred million dollars.


Mr. KING (Kootenay):: I will be very
glad to furnish the information we have tomorrow when we go into pommittee, as is customary.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.

[Stage Direction]
Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (for the Minister of the Interior) moved that the House go into committee at the next sitting of the House to consider the following proposed resolution:
Resolved,-That it is expedient"to bring in a measure to tprovide thait the agreement dated the ninth day of January, 1926, made between the government of the Dominion of Canada and the government of the province of Alberta, respecting the transfer of public lands in the province of Alberta, be approved, the following provisions ito form part thereof:-
(a)	That the school lands fund to be transferred to the province as in the said agreement provided, and such of the school lands specified in section thirty-nine of The Dominion Lands Act, chapter 20 of the statutes of 1908, and amending statutes, as pass to the administration of the province under the terms of the said agreement, shall be set aside and shall continue to be administered by the province in accordance, "mutatis mutandis," with the provisions of sections thirty-nine to (forty-two of The Dominion Lands Act, for the support of schools organized and carried on therein in accordance with the provisions of section seventeen of *'The Alberta Act," chapter three of the statutes of 1905, and
(b)	that any interest in any lands included in the parks or forest reserves in the said agreement referred to, may, with the consent of the province, be disposed of by Canada for any purpose other than the purposes specified in the said agreement, and
(c)	that nothing in the said agreement or in any subsequent agreements or statutes such as are therein provided for, shall in any iway affect the rights or properties of the Hudson's Bay Company as contained in the conditions under which that company surrendered Rupert's Land to the crown.
He said:	His Excellency the Governor
General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the favourable consideration of the House.
Motion agreed to. .

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Sir HENRY DRAYTON:: I wonder if my hon. friend the Minister of Finance could tell us when he is contemplating bringing down the budget. Perhaps it will be next week.


James Alexander Robb: Not until -after Easter.


OANTEEN FUNDS DISTRIBUTION
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):: Some time ago the hon. member
for Toronto Northwest (Mr. Church) made inquiry about the distribution of the canteen funds as follows:
I should like to ask the government what has been done in regard to the distribution among the soldiers of tire canteen fund amounting to $2,000,000. It is neanly a year now since -parfiiflimeivt passed an act in respect to this matter, and voted the sum of $800,000 to the province of Ontario as its share. As yet, however, no commission has been appointed for that province and apparently none will be for some time, although there are many men in need of relief owing to unemployment and distress. .Will the government later on in the week state the cause of the delay, and inform tha House as to the nature of the existing situation?
My hon. friend reminded me to-day that no answer has been given as yet and I am sorry for it, because I was given a statement by the minister reading as follows:
1.	In pursuance of the Canteen Funds Act all provincial governments were invited on October 16 last, to make appointments of provincial boards of trustees for -the -purpose of receiving and administering the share payable to such provinces.
2.	The following provinces have made appointments and the moneys have been duly paid over-British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Bruns/wick, Nova Scotia.
3.	The Ontario government has not yet -made any appointments but as soon as notification has been received that appointments have been made Itiie share payable to the province of Ontario will be remitted.


Mr. HANSON:: Would the minister state
the names of the appointees in the various provinces? I am only interested of course in New Brunswick.


Ernest Lapointe: I will get the information for my hon. friend.


SALE OF AUSTRALIAN BUTTER
[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. E. ARMSTRONG (East Lambton):: I desire to ask the Minister of Agriculture a question. I have received a communication in regard to this matter which reads as follows:
I understand that Australian and New Zealand butter is being sold in Canada in such a way that the consumer thinks he is getting the Canadian made product. I am informed that one of the government inspectors in western Ontario said that butter from Australia and New Zealand is being sold in London and St. Thomas in the same wrappers that the dealers formerly used in wrapping Canadian butter, the only difference being that the registration number is not printed on the wrapper of the imported article. Thus suppose the creameries were wrapping butter under a wrapper with "Rose Brand" on it the creamery has now to place their own registration number on it, namely, 860. But if we wrapped Australian butter we could use the same wrapper except that we would eliminate the registration number 860.
Privilege-Mr. Woodsworth

I desire to ask the government if they have issued' instructions to their inspectors to tell vendors of Australian 'butter that they may use the same wrappers as heretofore, but that they must ship in plain boxes and not use the creamery registration number either on the boxes or on the wrappers.


Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):: That is rather an involved
question to answer offhand with respect to Australian butter, and if my hon. friend will place it on the order paper I shall be pleased to explain the matter fully.



PRIVILEGE-MR. WOODSWORTH

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):: I rise to a question of privilege.
My attention has been called to misleading reports of an incident that occurred on the night the House adjourned. The story was first published, I believe, by the Toronto Mail and Empire, and has since been added to and embellished by other papers. A typical account is given by the Daily Intelligencer of Belleville of March 6, where I note under the motto "Let there be harmony in things essential-liberty in things not essential- charity in all," there is an editorial dealing with "Ottawa's unholy trio." Attention is called to-
The most remarkable and illuminating spectacle of 'three anti-British members of the Commons, Messrs. Woodsworth and Heaps of Winnipeg, and Bourassa of Montreal, remaining sullenly seated while the national anthem was sung in the House.
Later on the article goes on to say:
It was South Hastings' member who started the loyal anthem and prayer for His Majesty as the House was recessing. W. Ernest Tummon, M.P., as all
Canada knows by this time, is a singer	
As the critical moment approached-
I do not know what critical moment is referred to.
-some one said: " Come on, Ernie (they call him that) start 'The King'
He did. It was a notable event. Many said they never remembered the national anthem being sung in the House before. Everyone at once got to his feet, even the galleries joining, in this tribute of respect to His Majesty, except the unholy trio.
Hon. members will recall that in connection with the divisions, there was considerable confusion, various groups singing rival songs such as "Alouette", "There's a long, long trail awinding" and so on. Not being a singer, I did not participate in this, but I was in conversation with my neighbour the hon. member for Labelle (Mr. Bourassa). I remember that I became conscious that the tune was "God Save the King" but I paid no attention. Por me it was part of the

exuberant but rather undignified performance.
I think I was not far wrong as I have since been informed that after "God Save the King" was sung a group of members on this side of the House started "O Canada", during the singing of vfhich many members on the other side left the chamber. Personally I attach no significance to this. There was general confusion; the House was dispersing.
I may say however that the report was quite inaccurate for my colleague from North Winnipeg (Mr. Heaps) was standing while the national anthem was being sung.


An hon. MEMBER:: He was not.


James Shaver Woodsworth: The hon. member for Labelle informed me the other day that he was absolutely unaware that the national anthem was being.sung. No one who knows ' the animation with which the hon. member for Labelle enters into conversation will say, in the words of this editorial, that he was "sullenly seated". It would seem that prejudice had distorted the vision of some reporter. I should like to state that whether I participate in any ceremony or not I try to show reasonable respect for those who do. May I add, there are various ways of showing patriotism? At any irrelevant moment when someone calls "Come on, Ernie", I do not propose to click heels and come to a salute, or to do any other form of goose-stepping.


Mr. KENNEDY (Winnipeg):: Is it permissable to ask the hon. member a question?


James Shaver Woodsworth: I think I have made my statement.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: Will the
hon. member state to the House-?


Mr. SPEAKER:: Order.



CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS- DETROIT FRANCHISE

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Toronto Northwest):: I wish to object to the motion for the production of papers in reference to the surrender of certain valuable Canadian National railway franchises on the right of way of the Canadian National Railways and the Detroit G.H. & M. Railway being transferred from motions for the production of papers to notices of motion. This means that this cannot be discussed this session.
I should like to call the attention of the Acting minister of Railways and Canals (Mr. Robb) to the following despatch:
Michigan legislature will approve Thornton "Sell out" Lansing, Mich., Feb. 3.-Formal approval of an agreement reached between Gov. Groesbeck and officials

Sup-ply-Customs
of the Canadian National Railways regarding moving certain tracks of the company to make room for the "wider Woodward avenue" link connecting Detroit and Pontiac. Michigan will be asked at a special session of the Michigan legislature which will convene February 16. Certain changes in the method of highway financing will also be considered. Formal call for the session was issued to-day by the governor.
Will this agreement be laid in full before this parliament for its approval and consent as is being done by the party of the first part, the state of Michigan, in asking the state's approval in the session of the legislature which has been specially called? If not, why not, and will parliament be asked to consent before this agreement is passed as Canada is the party of the second part?


James Alexander Robb: The question asked by
my hon. friend involves some legal technicalities. I shall refer it to the management of the National Railways and give my hon. friend an answer as early as possible.



ACOUSTICS OF CHAMBER

[Stage Direction]
On the Orders of the Day:
Mr. ROBERT FORKE (Brandon):: I wish at this particular time to make a vigorous protest against the way in which business is being done while questions are being asked on the orders of the day. The whole thing to us in this part of the chamber is a dumb show. We know nothing about what is going on; with the exception of the speech delivered by the hon. member for .Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth), I do not know anything that has been transacted in this House since prayers have been read.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Louder.


Robert Forke: It is all very well for hon.
gentlemen in the front benches who seem to think they are conducting the business of this country and that none of us has any say in the matter. I think I made this request very courteously before. There may be a lack of attention on the part of those who are taking part in the proceedings; but one reason why so little attention is being paid and there is so much murmuring and talking is that when members are unable to follow what is taking place, naturally they lose interest and murmuring and talking begins. I make this request quite courteously that hon. members will try to speak just a little louder in asking and answering questions. The government members on the front benches are just as guilty as any other hon. members. I hope hon. members will take this request in the spirit in which it is made. I notice in the Journal to-day that even members of the
press gallery who are supposed to have hearing capacities far beyond those of the ordinary mortal are unable to hear what is going on in the House.


Arthur Meighen: I have observed lately
some very severe and not very thoughtful criticism of the same character as that advanced by the leader of the Progressive party just now. I think all should remember that this House is far beyond the ordinary dimensions of a speaking chamber, and to raise one's voice continually to a high pitch is not a very pleasant process, and not one that a person is likely to indulge in. We all suffer just the same as the hon. member for Brandon and hon. members further down. In fact on Tuesday last when I asked for an explanation of a bill from a front bencher of my hon. friend's party, I was unable to hear his reply.


Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (South York):: The whole trouble is this wide space in the centre of the chamber. I trust that plans will be made for the reconstruction of this chamber on the principle of an amphitheatre for debate rather than a Gothic cathedral.



DEPARTMENT OF CUSTOMS AND EXCISE

[Stage Direction]
The House in committee of supply, Mr. Duff in the chair.
To provide for expenses of maintenance of revenue cruisers and foT preventive service, $376,510.
Hon. GEORGE H. BOIVIN (Minister of Customs and Excise):	Mr. Speaker, this
item which is subsection 4 of vote 349, was under discussion and had been debated at considerable length the other evening, when hon. members on the other side of the House very kindly consented to allow a change of departments, and passed an estimate of the Department of Public Works. I hope that very little further debate will be required. In the course of that debate several very legitimate requests for information were made by hon. members on the other side and this I promised to give as soon as possible. If you, Mr. Chairman, will allow me to refer to the items passed without re-opening them, I will be glad to do so now. The hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Chaplin) made an inquiry concerning the bridge at Niagara Falls, and referred to a letter which he had forwarded to the deputy minister.
Mr. CHAPLIN (Lincoln):: The bridge at Queenston, not at Niagara Falls.


Mr. BOIVIN:: Yes, that is the bridge. That matter has been investigated and I am sending to my hon. friend the report of the
Supply-Customs

investigator. It will be seen that the facts as submitted by the hon. member are absolutely correct, with the exception that the four cars in question were headed from Canada to the United States, instead of from the United States to Canada. That is not an excuse, and I am not urging it as such. There should be an export entry for any goods exported from the United States; those cars should have reported at the customs, and there was only one man in charge at, the time. I am glad to say that the deputy minister yesterday forwarded to the collector of customs and excise at Niagara Falls, Ontario, the following telegram.
You are instructed to assign two officers to night duty at Queenston bridge on and after tihe 18th instant.
The hon. member for East Essex (Mr. Morand) made an inquiry concerning the appointment of an officer at Tilbury, Ontario, and in reply to his question I informed him that Mr. W. A. Hutton and terminated his services there on December 2, 1925 and that I was under the impression that a relieving officer was in charge of that port. Upon investigation at the department I find that Mr. M. W. Richards was appointed by the Civil Service Commission and took charge of that port on January 5, 1926. I will send over to the hon. member a copy of the advertisement for the position and a copy of all the correspondence exchanged between the Civil Service Commission and the department in connection with the appointment.
The hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton) asked to be supplied with a list showing the retirements under the Civil Service Superannuation Act of 1924, in the Department of Customs and Excise. I have had the list prepared, and am handing it to my hon. friend. It includes both the inside and the outside service.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The question was as to any retirements at all; I did not specify those under any particular act.


Georges Henri Boivin: This includes everything.
Then there was an inquiry made by the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. Gott) concerning the appointment of an officer at Kingsville. I have here and will send to the hon. member a copy of the correspondence in connection with the appointment at that place. The hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Manion) urged the granting the privilege to a bus line operating between Fort William and Duluth to take passengers for local points in Canada. The matter has been very thoroughly investigated. There is no provision in the Customs Act or in any of the regulations thereunder whereby it would be possible for the 
department to permit a foreign bus upon which duty has not been paid to engage in local traffic in Canada. In other words, unless there is a payment of duty upon the vehicle it is impossible for the department to allow that vehicle to be used in Canada for commercial purposes.
The hon. member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie) inquired concerning the appointment of some new officers at Bridgeburg. I promised to Supply him with a copy of the report made by Inspector Busby, concerning the necessity for the appointment of these officers, and that report is ready.


Mr. GUTHRIE:: I was quite satisfied with the minister's statement, but I will be glad to see the report.


Georges Henri Boivin: The hon. member for South Toronto (Mr. Geary) made a request concerning the net customs and excise revenue as shown in the Auditor General's report for the year 1924-1925. A statement has been prepared but we have not yet secured completed particulars concerning the refund of salaries paid out of the different items in the vote under consideration. I will have that information mailed to the hon. member at a later date. I am sending over to him now a complete statement of the customs and excise revenue for 1924-25, showing how the net revenue is arrived at and the difference between the gross and the net revenue.


Mr. GEARY:: Does that give me information as to what' account that is to be found in in the Auditor General's report?


Georges Henri Boivin: That is indicated in the
statement. The only other request was from the hon. member for West York (Sir Henry Drayton), concerning the ports, outports and preventive stations on the Great Lakes that should be patrolled so far as exports are concerned. 'It is very hard to differentiate between those that should be patrolled and those where no patrol is required but I have prepared a complete list of the ports and outports and now send it over to my hon. friend.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Does that include the peripatetic ports of export?-if I may so use the word.


Georges Henri Boivin: I will take the risk of saying, yes.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Can my hon.
friend give me a list of the peripatetic ports of export?


Georges Henri Boivin: That is just exactly what
I have stated I was unable to do. I may tell my hon. friend that all those ports-I do not

Sup pi y-C ustoms
dare repeat the word for fear of mispronouncing it-are included in the list.


Mr. SUTHERLAND (South Oxford):: Mr. Chairman, this new method of supplying information may be quite satisfactory to the members who asked the questions dealt with; I hardly think it will be equally satisfactory to those who heard the questions asked but still have no information as to what is contained in the statements.	i


Georges Henri Boivin: Most of the information was given the other day. Only copies of the reports and correspondence were required. Some are too lengthy to be placed upon Hansard, but if the hon. member for South Oxford would like to have information about any of these reports or letters, I shall be very glad to have the documents returned to me and I shall then read them so that they may be printed in Hansard.


Henry Lumley Drayton: iMr. Chairman, to save the minister the trouble of reading this list, I would suggest that it be handed to Hansard with the consent of the committee.


Georges Henri Boivin: I hope the Chairman will
consent.
The statement is as follows:



LIST OF OFFICES AND SUB-OFFICES IN ONTARIO FROM WHICH VESSELS ARRIVE AND DEPART

[Stage Direction]
Ports	Outports	Preventive Stations
Amherstburg		Kingsville	
	Leamington West Dock		North Dock
Belleville Bridgeburg Brockville Chatham		Erieau	Point Pelee
Cobourg Collingwood		Tilbury Meaford	
Cornwall		Aultsville	
Deseronto Fort Frances		Rainy River	
Fort William		Ivy Lea
	Kincardine	
	Southampton Dunnville	
Kenora	Port Maitland	
Midland	Penetanguishene	PortsmouthMorrisburg	
Napanee	Iroquois Bath	Niagara Falls (nil)...	Chippawa	North Bay (nil)	Niagara Queenston Moose Factory Smith's Falls	Ottawa	Owen Sound	Wiarton	Parry Sound	Byng Inlet	Picton Port Arthur Port Hope Port McNicoll	Depot Harbour Key.Harbour Cardinal	Maitland
LIST OF OFFICES AND SUB-OFFICES IN ONTARIO FROM WHICH VESSELS ARRIVE AND DEPART- Concluded
Ports	Outports	Preventive Stations
		
Sault Ste. Marie		Point Edward	 Blind River Bruce Mines Cockburn Island....	Stag Island Burnt Island. Killamey Manitowing
		
		
	Michipicoten Harb..	Providence Bay Richard's Landing Meldrum Bay Spanish Mills
		
St. Catharines (nil).. St. Thomas (nil)	 Tillsonburg (nil)		Port Dalhousie Thor old Port Stanley Port Burwell	
Trenton Wallaceburg		
Whitby		
	Sandwich Walkerville
Georges Henri Boivin: After this laudable effort to make progress, I suppose this item will now be allowed to pass.


The CHAIRMAN:: Carried.


Mr. ARMSTRONG (Lambton):: Copies of several of the letters I notice are marked "confidential." Is that quite in order? Would the minister want them to be quoted in any way?


Georges Henri Boivin: All reports passing between
the Civil Service Commission and the department are marked and considered as confidential; but I can see no objection to these being used.


Ernest Frederick Armstrong: Or comments made upon them?


Georges Henri Boivin: I know of no reason why
they should not be used and commented upon. The word "confidential" merely appears on the copies because they happen to be exact copies of the originals, but it was not placed there for the purpose of preventing my hon. friend from using them in any way he sees fit.


Mr. McGEBBON:: Before the minister
leaves that subject, I should like to bring to his attention the inconvenience that Canadian citizens often have to suffer when returning from a visit to the United States. I would call his attention particularly to the action of his officials at Bridgeburg. In the last year or two I have had to 4 p.m. bring to the notice of the department a number of occasions when Canadian citizens have been detained in a

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rather high-handed and ruthless manner by the officials and put to a great deal of inconvenience. Perhaps he will inform the committee what instructions his officials have in that regard?


Georges Henri Boivin: I can assure my hon. friend that the officers of the Department of Customs have always been instructed by the officers of the department here to treat not only home-coming Canadians but persons from all countries entering Canada with the utmost possible courtesy. It is quite possible -I am not disputing what my hon. friend says-that there has been a lack of courtesy and perhaps actual rudeness on the part of some of our officers. Two cases of that nature, and only two, have been reported to me since I took charge of the department. An investigation was made, a disciplinary warning was given to the officers concerned and the inspector communicated with the persons who had complained of discourtesy and made the required apologies. If my hon. friend can give me the name of any officer who has failed in his duty in this respect, I shall be only too glad to investigate. It is possible, however, that the blame is not entirely on the officers of my department. In one or two other cases reported, officers of the Immigration department had lacked tact and courtesy. If my hon. friend will either himself or through any of his friends give me specific cases, I promise that they shall receive prompt and thorough investigation.
Mr. MeGIBBON: Mr. Chairman, I simply bring this matter to the attention of the minister because on a number of occasions I have had to bring to the attention of the department complaints by home-coming Canadians, who, although they carried letters of identification in order to avoid that very trouble, were detained, some of them for hours, some of them for days, and treated in a rather rude manner. The minister will find those letters in the department.
Mr. BCflVIN: If their right to enter Canada was questioned in spite of the letters of identification which they carried, they were undoubtedly detained by the officers of the Department of Immigration. AVe have no control whatever over those officers, but I will bring the matter to the attention of the Acting Minister of Immigration and Colonization (Mr. Stewart). There is no more excuse for the immigration officers than there would be for customs officers to be discourteous to home-coming Canadians.
[Mr. McGibbon.I


Mr. MORAND:: Mr. Chairman, as I notice the Minister of Customs is very anxious to save money, I wonder if he has ever thought of the feasibility of combining the immigration and customs officials at the port of AVindsor? AVe have there two different sets of officers, under two different departments, doing work that could easily be done by the same men. I do not want to see these men put out of employment, but it seems to me that in course of time, instead of appointing new men under two different departments, the work could be combined and done' quite effectively by one set of men. That would also save a lot of trouble to the people passing backwards and forwards between Detroit and AVindsor, many thousands of whom are crossing every day. I was just wondering whether this had ever been thought of, because it does seem to me that is one place where something could be saved.
There is another thing that strikes me particularly with regard to that port, where we have a very large customs entry. I am told, and I believe I am credibly informed, that when an officer at that particular port requires even a whisk, it is necessary for him to send in a requisition to the department at Ottawa, and wait perhaps two or three weeks for authorization to buy a small article of that kind. I think a small amount of petty cash should be kept on hand at the local office for this purpose, .to save the time of the officers filling in requisitions for small articles of this kind.


Georges Henri Boivin: Answering the last question first, I might tell my hon. friend that the custom which he complains of is one that has existed almost from time immemorial in connection with all customs ports. It has always been necessary for the officers requiring supplies to send in their requisitions to the department at Ottawa, and either have the supplies forwarded to them from Ottawa or obtain authorization to purchase. The suggestion made by my hon. friend is well worthy of consideration, and it will be considered not as regards supplies of value or importance, but for the petty articles such as whisks, hammers, brooms, and other supplies,, that may be required. I think a small cash allowance could be given to the local officers for this purpose.
We have often seriously considered the combination of the servioes of customs and-immigration but it has been found practically impossible to do this at the larger ports. The duties of the two sets of officers are entirely different. Their responsibilities are entirely different, and their training requires to>
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be entirely different. It is true that the practice has been adopted and this economy effected at very small frontier ports where very few people cross the boundary, and where there is only a small quantity of goods to be examined. There are some small ports where part of the officer's salary is paid by one department and part by the other. The officer reports to both departments. It has been found impossible so far, in connection with the larger ports, to combine the officers doing the two different kinds of work in the same department.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I thought it was the well established view of the department that that should be done as far as possible. I remember a case in the province of New Brunswick not very long ago where an official of the Immigration department was let out on the ground that his sendees could be performed by an officer of the Customs department. I have in mind the port of McAdam, which is quite an important port of entry on the frontier between New Brunswick and Maine, where there are two sets of officers, and where I fancy the work of the immigration officers occupies only a little time morning and evening when the trains are coming across the frontier. I do not see any reason why in the course of time these two positions should not be more or less amalgamated and the same officers perform both services. The customs work at that point is no doubt more important than the work of the immigration officers, but a very considerable saving could be effected there, and I hope the minister will take that into consideration.


Georges Henri Boivin: The matter will receive further consideration when the session is over; of course, it will be impossible to consider it at the present time. The information my hon. friend has just given to the House is absolutely correct. The officer in question was removed and his duties were assigned to the officer representing the Department of Customs at that port. This action confirms to a certain extent the statement I made a moment ago regarding the smaller ports where one officer was charged with doing both customs and immigration work.


Richard Burpee Hanson: I would like to ask a
question which perhaps does not come under this particular item; but I am sorry I was not here when the estimates were before the House a day or so ago, with reference to the preventive service in the bay of Fundy. What boats are employed there, how large are they, and is it the intention of the government to augment this service. The reason I ask is that one day in 14011-106i
the month of October last I had the duty to perform of going to the island of Grand Manan to assist in the happy return of my hon. friend the member for Charlotte (Mr. Grimmer), and on our way out, I was in the pilot house of the steamboat, and the captain pointed out to me three boats in the distance which he said, and I have no doubt he was correct, were rum runners which had been located there for several weeks, plying their illicit traffic with the people on shore without let or hindrance by any officer of this government.' I had it in mind at the time to communicate with the department, but under the stress of the election I did not do so. I would point out to the minister that practically during the whole of the summer and autumn season of 1925 bootleggers were in the bay of Fundy plying their illicit traffic, delivering their goods, taking the money of the people, and so far as those from whom I inquired knew, there had not been a single vessel or boat of the customs preventive service in the bay of Fundy waters during that whole period. These people were not in any way interferred with, and they were in those waters till the autumn gales came on. Now that is something that should not continue. Possibly this statement of facts, or what have been detailed to me as facts, will enable the department to give some consideration and attention to that sheet of water next year, for certainly something ought to be done there. I happen to know, not from personal knowledge, but from information that has reached me, that there is a considerable volume of illicit liquor smuggling on the bay of Fundy coast, and no doubt the revenues of this country have in that way been deprived of very large sums of money. Some of this liquor is destined for conveyance to the neighbouring state of Maine, some of it is for local consumption, but I imagine that the most of it is for export, because we are rather a sober people down in that part of the country. I hope the minister will give this matter his attention, and that in the spring season now opening this situation will be looked into and this evil remedied.


Georges Henri Boivin: When these estimates were
last 'before the committee, I myself stated that we were not satisfied with the preventive service that we now have on the coasts of the three Maritime provinces. The nearest boat we have to the bay of Fundy is one mentioned in the list which I gave to the hon. member for West York on page 1634 of Hansard. Patrol Boat G, with headquarters at Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. It is impossible for that boat to carry on a patrol service in the bay df Fundy as it should be carried on but I promise the hon. gentleman that the
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service will be improved' during the present season. I would go further and tell him that if he has any information which might lead to the conviction of the men involved, in addition to the information he has just given to the House, I should; be glad' to receive it confidentially. If that information can bring about a prosecution it is not yet too late to institute proceedings.	.


Mr. FOSTER:: SWbat special instructions
are given to the customs officers at the various ports. on the Atlantic coast of the Maritimes in regard to smuggling operations? Are there any Special instructions beyond those contained in the general clauses of the Customs Act?


Georges Henri Boivin: The preventive officersin fact all the officers of the department having power to make seizures-are given instructions in advance to Seize and detain goods they may catch persons in the act of smuggling, goods which may have been smuggled into Canada. In addition to the generail instructions concerning the seizure of goods which must be reported to Ottawa, special instructions were issued by the department on July 3, 1625, after the Customs Act was amended last session. The memorandum reads as follows:
There is printed herewith copy of an act to amend the Customs Act assented to by iparilitament on the 2?th of June, 1925. This act provides for the repeal of sections 206 and 219 of the Customs Act, and the substitution 'therefor of new sections bearing the same numbers wherein provision is made for 'imposing heavier fines and imprisonment (for the offences of smuggling and of keeping or selling goods unlawfully imported, wiith further provision making it an indictable offence to smuggle goods or keep or sell unlawfully imported goods of the value of $200 or over. In respect of the latter offences you are instructed that in all cases where you are satisfied the goods were smuggled for personal use and not ifor business use and it is a first offence, not to commence any proceedings Iby way o<f indictment without first communicating the fact "to the department and awaiting instructions. 'In all other cases proceedings are to be taken forthwith.
That means that the deputy minister with the authorization of the then acting minister, sent instructions to all collectors in the country that whenever smuggling, or keeping smuggled goods of a value of more than $200 for commercial purposes came to their attention they were to prosecute before the courts at onoe without communicating with headquarters at Ottawa.


George Eulas Foster: Let me .put this case to
the minister. Suppose a customs official is advised that a ship is in the harbour with liquor on board which is intended to be landed, and in view of that information he went elsewhere looking for liquor to be 
landed at another cove some miles away where there was no liquor and none expected to be landed. It was not certain that the landing was to be made at the latter spot; on the contrary the officer knew it was not expected there. If such facts as these were 'brought to the attention of the1, minister would he consider the advisability of dismissing the officer for acting in such a manner?


Georges Henri Boivin: If the name of the officer
and the circumstances are given to me the 'matter will be investigated at once. Should *the facts prove to be as stated 'by my hon. friend, I have no hesitation in saying that the officer will be dismissed at once.


Mr. M ARCIL:: 
Georges Henri Boivin: My hon. friend1 will remember that very shortly after the general election he brought this matter to my attention. The officials of the department are not experts on international law and it was impossible for us to determine whether or not the gulf of St. Lawrence could be considered closed waters. The opinion expressed by the legal officers in our department was that the gulf should be considered part of the Atlantic ocean and that the three-mile limit should apply within its waters. The question, however, has not been definitely decided and an opinion has been asked for from the Department of Justice. That opinion has not yet reached us, but we do hope even if it should be contrary to the wishes of my hon. friend to find some other means of coping with the situation that he complains of. He says that the same state of affairs exists in Gaspe. That matter was brought to the attention of the department by His Honour the Speaker and upon his request a special detachment of members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, three in number, I think, were sent to the coast of Gaspe in July in order to correct as far as possible the abuses complained of by the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. Marcil).


Mr. McGIBBON:: In view of the fact that the minister has admitted that the preventive service is bad-I think he admitted the other day that they had ten or twelve cruisers on the Atlantic and had only made some forty seizures all summer-and in view of the fact
that public.opinion in Canada to-day is very much concentrated on his department, I should like to ask him what policy he intends to adopt to increase the efficiency of that service during the coming year. As a new minister no doubt he has given considerable thought to the subject and has ideas of his own, which I think the House and the country would be much interested in knowing.


Georges Henri Boivin: I hesitate somewhat about
putting my view's-some of the ideas are my own and some are ideas received from the leading officials of the department-before the House at the present time. I intended to place my opinions before the committee now investigating administration of the department and then do the best I could to meet the recommendations contained in the report of that committee, which I hope will be confirmed by the House. I cannot however refuse the courteous request of my hon. friend, and I would say that the special preventive service force which was authorized last year by the vote of 1350,000 in the supplementary estimates must be improved. In other words, of the sixty-seven men now employed, much as I hate to make dismissals, many must be dismissed and many additional men must be appointed. My intention would be to appoint a preventive force of some 260 men, divided up among the different provinces approximately as follows:	Nova Scotia, 56;
New Brunswick, 20; Prince Edward Island, 10; Quebec, 90; Ontario, 54; Manitoba, 16; Alberta, 3; Saskatchewan, 5, and British Columbia 13, for the purpose of patrolling and guarding the boundary points where trucks and automobiles may enter Canada, but also for the purpose of guarding strategic points in Canada.


John Wesley Edwards: Does the
minister mean 260 in addition to the present staff?	[DOT]


Georges Henri Boivin: Not in addition to the new
special staff. I desire to make myself clear. The men authorized by the $350,000 vote of last year were roughly estimated at 200. Only 67 were appointed. Those who will be retained out of the 67 so appointed will be included in this number of approximately 260. These of course are just approximate numbers. The idea would be to group the men by twos and threes at junction points where [DOT]several routes coming in from the United States converge to go into one large city; for instance at the Victoria bridge at Montreal, or at the Longueuil ferry. We would thus have a double check on all the incoming cars at these particular strategic points. In addition to that,
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I think that a certain number of officers should be equipped with motor cycfles or high powered ears for the purpose of patrolling, [DOT] what I might almost call, the lonely country roads, the unimproved dirt, roads that cross the boundary 'between the United States and Canada. They are or can be used by smugglers during the dry season of the year, but there is so little traffic that it would never pay to appoint permanent officers to guard them. In that way, we can pretty well protect the boundary. Hon. gentlemen will notice there is a less number of men mentioned in my estimate for the province oif Ontario than for the province of Quebec. There is an extensive land boundary between the United States and the Province of Quebec, whereas the boundary line between Ontario and the United States is formed almost entirely by water. The points at which people can cross and come into Ontario are not so numerous as they are in Quebec. I would adopt the same methods along the boundary of the province of Manitoba at and near Emerson, and upon all the different roads leading up from the United States to the city of Winnipeg. The same thing applies also at points south of Vancouver, between Washington and BritiSh Columbia. I do not think this will be necessary between the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan and the United States, because there is very little smuggling done there. I am told that the distance between the large American cities on the south and the large Canadian cities on the north of the boundary line, is so great that it is not advantageous for smugglers to try 'to operate in that territory. The service will also have to be increased on 'the Pacific and- Atlantic coasts. We had fourteen boats on the Atlantic coast. That number is not sufficient. The only way to effectively interfere' with smuggling on the coast is by the use of patrol boats. A great number of boats have been offered to us for rental, but I have not rented more than one or two so far. A great many of the boats offered to us for rental are boats having a speed of about eight or nine knots per hour, and naturally they would be of little use in preventing smuggling.
The hon. member for Muskoka-Ontario, mentioned the fact that we had only made forty seizures during the past year. It is not the duty of patrol boats to make seizures and we cannot expect that service from them. The patrol boat is operating to scare the smugglers away, to prevent any communication between the coast and the liquor-laden schooner outside of the three-mile limit. When
fMr. Boivin.]	,	. ; | /[[DOT] [DOT]
patrol boats are operating very few attempts are made to unload cargoes, and when vessels are obliged to remain too long on the open sea with their cargoes, they naturally move on and endeavour to send it into the United States or sometimes deliver it at Newfoundland 'points. The efficiency of the patrol service should never be measured by the number of seizures, but a certain number of boats should be added to the service. In British Columbia certain boats should also be used. The coast of Vancouver island should be protected although there is not much smuggling into Vancouver island, the largest amount of smuggling being into the bays and inlets on the coast of continental British Columbia. We have only one cruiser there; we should have others and I hope as soon as possible three or four other boats may be placed in operation. I hope I can lease boats to prove that this is a means of prevention. Later on if the experiment is successful I intend to ask parliament to vote a sufficient sum of money to build a certain number of fast patrol boats. They need not be very large, but they must be fast, because a patrol boat, if it is to be of any use, must be fast.


John Wesley Edwards: The minister has given quite a comprehensive plan, but I notice that no provision is made in that plan for patrolling the Great Lakes. Is it the intention to leave that out of the scheme entirely?


Georges Henri Boivin: It is not the intention tc leave the Great Lakes out of the plan. The reason why we have not made provision fot patrolling the Great Lakes is that we consider that most of the ports at which boats of any size or importance land are already protected by preventive officers. The great trouble on the Great Lakes is not so much the smuggling in as the smuggling out. A great deal of liquor, as we all know, is shipped from lake ports to the United States of America, but we are particular about the export entry, about the necessity of giving the name of the boat and a description of the cargo in each instance, so that we may have some control of the boats when they come back and make sure that they do not return laden with United States merchandise. The boats report back empty to customs officers along the coast, and there must therefore be very little incentive for any one who is not exporting from Canada to the United States to use small boats for the purpose of smuggling goods into this country. The coast line of the Great Lakes is fairly well protected now by preventive officers, by sub-ports

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and ports and we do not consider it necessary at the present time to put patrol boats on the Great Lakes. I thank the hon. member for Frontenac-Addington (Mr. Edwards) for bringing the matter before the committee.
I want hon. members to remember that all I have said is merely a tentative plan, and other methods are under consideration. An idea which has been submitted to me by one of the officials of my department is that of erecting steel gates on roads crossing the boundary, gates which might be locked at sunset and opened at sunrise, and watched over perhaps by one preventive officer. I am not inclined at the moment to favour the idea, but I am willing to admit that it has much merit. It is certainly worthy of consideration even if I have not yet considered it worthy of adoption.


Mr. KAISER:: I hope the minister will
not become so absorbed in points in Canada that indulge in smuggling as to forget some of the places which know nothing of smuggling. I represent the city of Oshawa, a port which is fifth in the Dominion in the amount of the revenue it sends to the federal treasury. The federal service in that city requires some particular attention. In the first place we have no collector of customs, and we have not had a local appointee for a few years.
I realize that the government have been very considerate in dealing as they have done, during his illness, with the gentleman who was appointed by the Conservative party, but something must be done at the present time. If it is the intention of the government to appoint a collector of customs at our port apart from the one who has held it in his illness, the appointment should be made immediately. Some attention should also be paid to the building which is absolutely inadequate for the services which we are endeavouring to carry on.
I do not know who in this House represents the Post Office Department, but in that regard we are worse off than we are in the Customs department. We have had no postmaster for several months, and nothing is known as to the intention of the government. The postal service is not as it should be; there is discontent within the office, discontent with the carriers and so on due to mismanagement of the service at that particular point. I hope the government will pay some attention now to the port of Oshawa and see that our services are lifted to a higher plane. I can understand why the office of postmaster was held open until after the election, but the election is over and we are willing now, and the town demands, that an
appointment be made in connection with the post office. We say also that the customs service is not what it should be. Business men are patient but there is an under-current of complaint. As a matter of fact the customs office at Oshawa costs less than any other office in Canada in comparison with the amount of revenue received. The offices have been inconvenient and unsatisfactory to the business men, and I hope that the Minister of Customs and whoever may be responsible for the administration of the Post Office Department will make special note of this, look into the conditions, and give us a remedy for them.


Georges Henri Boivin: In answer to my hon. friend I may say that his remarks apply to three separate departments. So far as the buildings are concerned that is a matter for the consideration of the Minister of Public Works, and it will be brought to his attention. Regarding the appointment of the postmaster, I must thank my hon. friend for the indirect compliment he has paid myself and my colleagues of the government by saying that the appointment was left open until after the general election.


Richard Burpee Hanson: There may be a reason.


Georges Henri Boivin: Possibly so, but as a rule party appointments are made before an election. 'This matter will receive the immediate attention of the Postmaster General. The question which interests my department, the appointment of the collector, and my hon. friend is right when he complains that the port of Oshawa, with the large revenue derived from the General Motors Corporation, has remained for some time without a collector. As my hon. friend knows, Mr. C. E. Thomas, the collector at that port, is unfortunately ill and has been on leave of absence through illness. I 'am told that he has been absent from his duties for about five months, and that an acting officer has been placed in temporary charge. This state of affairs cannot continue very long, and it is expected that if this estimable collector cannot return to his duties in the very near future, he will ask to be retired and the Civil Service Commission will be requested to make an appointment to fill the position. I can assure my hon. friend that within a very short time the position of collector of customs at Oshawa will be filled.


Richard Burpee Hanson: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the remarks of the minister concerning the preventive service, I should like to ask what type of man he has been appointing or proposes to appoint; is he to be a man of the
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so-called police type, or is he to be what has been referred to in the committee as a departmental man? Is he to be tangled up in a lot of red tape, or is he to be allowed to show some initiative? That is a most important feature, to which the minister has not referred. I would suggest to him that the success or failure of his plan will depend upon the personnel of the staff which he proposes to appoint. Furthermore I would like to know how he proposes to make these appointments; are they to be made on the recommendation of the local patronage committee of the community in which the men are to reside or operate? If so, I think he will get exactly the same class of service in regard to the prevention of smuggling as he and his predecessors have been getting, and that to a large extent is zero. I will not say that; I will withdraw that statement. The minister will not get as good service as he would if the men were not appointed for political reasons. Are the appointments to be made through the Civil Service Commission, or, as I understand from the vote last year, are they to be made by the government? Are the men to be of the type of the gentleman who was appointed chief of the preventive service in Montreal last July, and whose actions are now under review? I want to tell the minister that I think the department is on trial in this connection, that the revelations which have been made so far in the investigating committee have fixed the eyes of the entire country upon this preventive service.
While I am on my feet I would like to point out to him, in connection with the remarks of the hon. member for Bonaventure (Mr. March), that while in my humble opinion I think it would be impossible to treat the gulf of St. Lawrence as a closed sea, I see no reason why the bay of Fundy, which is enclosed by British territory on three sides and which has a comparatively small mouth, should not be treated, as I believe it has been treated in international law, as a mare clausum. I should like to know the opinion of the department in that connection.
Then there is another matter which I would like to mention while I am on my feet. I want to take up all the things I have in mind now, because there are many others who wTant to speak on these questions. The Fisheries department has along the Atlantic coast and in the bay of Fundy a patrol boat, driven by internal combustion engines, which patrols along the border of the country between Canada and the United States. I wonder if the minister has ever
IMr. Hanson.]
considered the use of that fishery patrol in conjunction with the patrol against smuggling. As I understand it, the boat has a complete crew of fishery officers on board; she is on duty every day, and might very well be employed along certain portions of the coast line, with a preventive officer. Has consideration been given to that matter?


Georges Henri Boivin: We have not given
consideration to the employment of the fishery patrol for that purpose. The suggestion is one that has never been made to me; I am very glad to have it made now, and I will take the matter up with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries and see if it will be possible to use the fishery patrol for the double purpose. I will discuss the matter with the minister, and the two departments will get together and confer concerning it.
The other question asked by my hon. friend concerning the method of appointment of the preventive officers is much more embarrassing. I have not yet decided how the appointments can best be made. I am convinced that they should not be mad< upon the recommendation- of a local patron age committee or of a member of the House and I am equally convinced that they should not be made upon the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission. I do not like to refer to matters under investigation by a committee; I am not going to blame my hon. friend for referring to them, but he mentioned one name-


Richard Burpee Hanson: I do not think I mentioned the name.


Georges Henri Boivin: My hon. friend did not mention the name but he mentioned the officer, the chief preventive officer of Montreal, who was appointed in July, 1925. That gentleman was raised to that position by the Civil Service Commission, on the recommendation not of the minister-.


Henry Lumley Drayton: The recommendation of the department.


Georges Henri Boivin: On the indirect recommendation of the officers of the department who gave him his rating. I am not blaming the Civil Service Commission for his appointment. If my remarks in this House on a previous occasion were interpreted as blame against the Civil Service Commission, I want to dispel that idea at once. The Civil Service Commission could not have done otherwise in this particular case. A requisition was made for a bilingual appointee; there were two applicants one of whom was not bilingual. No matter what his qualifications might have been, it was necessary for the Civil Service

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Commission to appoint the bilingual candidate, but that was not the fault of the department. The position was advertised in the port and in all the sub-ports of the district of Montreal, and if only two applied for the position, certainly the department cannot and the Civil Service Commission should not be blamed. There is much merit in the Civil Service system. The Civil Service Commission has its place in our public life, to determine the qualifications of the applicants for promotion and appointment in the ordinary civil service not only in Ottawa, but also in the larger cities and also the towns and villages of Canada. The Civil Service Commission can well act as an intermediary between the applicants on the one side and the government on the other. There is no doubt about that. The Civil Service Commission can do excellent work but there are certain positions still within the jurisdiction of the commission which should not be there. How can the commission determine who is a proper man to be a preventive officer?


Mr. GOTT:: By examination.


Georges Henri Boivin: Just exactly the answer I thought I would get. Do you agree, Mr. Chairman, that the man who is the best scholar, who is able perhaps to count in decimals, to write an essay or make a translation in more perfect form than his neighbour, is better qualified to act as a preventive officer?


Eccles James Gott: That is some qualification.


Georges Henri Boivin: True; that is exactly what I have said. For a great many positions you cannot get a better appointing authority than the Civil Service Commission. But I say there are some positions of a peculiar nature requiring certain qualifications which cannot be established by a man's .examination paper, that cannot even be manifested by his appearance, yet these positions the Civil Service Commission are called upon to fill. Let me give an example. There is no man in this country prouder of a certain branch of the government service than the hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe), sitting beside me. I think every member, be he Conservative, Liberal, Progressive, Labour or Independent, shares his pride in the achievements and reputation of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In .the customs 5 p.m. inquiry and elsewhere it has been said, "Oh, why don't you assign this work to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?" And in every case where that branch has been placed in charge of any particular
work which came within their jurisdiction it has been done excellently. Now, I ask hon. members on the other side this question-and excuse me, Mr. Chairman, if I put it direct- Will any one rise in his place and say that appointments to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should be made by the Civil Service Commission?


John Wesley Edwards: Why confine your question to this side of the House?


Georges Henri Boivin: I regret the mistaken expression. I meant to address it to the entire House.


Mr. BURY:: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Mr. Chairman, is a semi-military body and is entirely under the jurisdiction of its officers. It is so in the Old Country in connection with the police, or with any similar semi-military body. Therefore that illustration does not at all come fairly within the purview of the minister's answer.


Georges Henri Boivin: Perhaps my hon. friend did not hear the preliminary part of my remarks.
I	did not say to the Civil Service Commission, "Hands off the Customs department." I agree that the commission should continue to make a large number of the appointments- appointments of customs collectors, appointments of customs officers here at Ottawa, appointments of appraisers, and so on. I am now referring to the new preventive service, and I think it should be a semi-military or semi-police service. I say that that service cannot be satisfactorily appointed by the Civil Service Commission. I hope the committee and the House will not decide otherwise. I will not however determine any definite plan of action until I have received the report of the committee. It will render effective service to the country if it only determines where some of the smuggling takes place at the present time and reports to the House ways and means of organizing an efficient preventive service to stop that smuggling. If it can do this it will do better than any special committee that has been appointed by this parliament for many years.


George Reginald Geary: Does the minister mean that on the other hand these appointments should be made by the department?


Georges Henri Boivin: No. I said in my opening remarks that I was equally opposed to direct appointment by the minister on the recommendation of the local patronage committee.


George Reginald Geary: Of course, the Royal
Canadian Mounted Police are appointed after examination.
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j.^78


Georges Henri Boivin: But not by the Civil Service Commission. They are appointed after examination by the officers in control and who place each probationer under observance.


George Reginald Geary: Certainly.


Georges Henri Boivin: In other words, they judge their appearance, ability, honesty and integrity.


Eccles James Gott: Is not that a kind of examination?


Ambrose Upton Gledstanes Bury: It is merely a qualifying examination. It does not necessarily carry promotion with it.


Eccles James Gott: I should like to know where examinations do carry. They did not cariy in connection with the Kingsville appointment. Is the minister aware that all papers and information submitted to him by the department in connection with the dismissal of Mr. C.	R. McCallum and the appointment of A.
D.	Pearsall, were issued even before Mr. Mc-Callum's appointment was made? I am impressed by the minister's desire to be fair. He said in the House some time ago that when charges were instituted against any civil servant, the procedure followed was first to suspend the man charged, and then to investigate the charges; if found guilty he would be dismissed, and if found innocent he would be reinstated. Now, I ask the minister, although this appointment did not occur during his term of office, to go back and correct mistakes where it is possible to correct them. As I have said, none of the information I requested yesterday has been supplied. The examination took place on May 29, and Mr. McCallum passed with a high percentage of marks. He had a fine reputation locally, where he was well known, and an equally fine record while on overseas service. Yet under date of June 10, 1925, I find a letter addressed to G. Graham, Esq., Assistant Inspector of Customs and Excise, Ottawa. I may use this correspondence?


Georges Henri Boivin: Certainly.


Eccles James Gott: The letter reads:
I have the honour to state that the department has deemed it advisable to review the recent examination of applicants for the position of sub-collector at the outport of Kingsville.
Very remarkable that on June 10 the department should deem it necessary to review an examination that took place on May 29!
I ask the minister what happened in the meantime that the department considered it necessary that this examination should be reviewed. I might state that the person by 
whom it was reviewed was a very outstanding Liberal, and the only thing in connection with the appointment that had not the appearance of political control was the examination and the marks obtained thereon. The next communication is from Mr. Graham, assistant inspector of customs and excise, under date of June 15, 1925:
In this connection I conferred with Mr. A. W. Massey, Ithe .principal of the high school at Kingsville. Ontario-
Mr. Massey, I might say, is an outstanding Liberal:
-and in the case of Mr. C. It. McCallum, I am obliged to state that this party, while of good ability, has been guilty in time past of a rather serious offence. It appears that while employed by (the Canadian Pacific Telegraph Company at Kingsville, Ontario, this party divulged certain confidential information entrusted to him, with the result that he was discharged by the telegraph company.
Mr. -Massey declined to make any change in the ratings already submitted by himself and Mr. McGuire at the previous examination.
Next I submit a letter to Mr. L. J. Lafferty, Windsor, from G. R. Kerby, chief inspector of the Canadian Pacific Railway, under date of August 15, 1925:
Dear Sir,-Further to my letter of recent date in connection with former agent C. R. McCallum.
Kindly be advised that Mr. McCallum was not discharged from the service but resigned on his own free will, not wishing to assume further responsibility as he was not acquainted with the wire work.
Under the circumstances consider he acted very wisely as our system is quite complicated which made him dependent for information from his operator.
Yours truly,
G. R. Kerby,
Inspector.
As Mr. Graham, the assistant inspector of customs and excise, points out in his letter of June 15, 1925:
Mr. Massey declined to make any change in the ratings already submitted by himself and Mr. McGuire at the previous examination.


John Wesley Edwards: Who came out at the head of that examination?


Eccles James Gott: Mr. McCallum stood far above all the others who tried the examination. The next letter is under date of June 15, 1925:
I have the honour to state that I am this date in receipt of a report from Mr. G. Graham, Assistant Inspector of Customs and Excise, relative to the rating of the candidates who recently made application for the position of collector of customs and excise at the outport of Kingsville, Ontario.
The assistant inspector's report, which is attached herewith, indicates that while Mr. C. R. McCallum is a party of good ability, he has in time past been guilty of having committed a serious breach of trust in that he divulged secret and private information while in the employ of the Canadian Pacific Railway Telegraph at Kingsville, Ontario, and also is a party whose disposition is such that he ds not likely to get along very well with the public in the discharge of his duties were he appointed to the position.

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Mr. BO  IVIN@: Just to have the file complete in Hansard, would my hon. friend be good enough to give the name of the person by whom that letter is signed. Would he read any other paragraph and the signature?


Eccles James Gott: It concludes:
All of which is respectfully submitted.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your obedient servant,
E. S. Busby,
Chief Inspector of Customs and Excise.
The next is a letter to the secretary of the Civil Service Commission from Mr. R. R. Farrow, Deputy Minister, Department of Customs:
I have the honour to enclose oral examination ratings by Mr. G. C. McGuire, Inspector of Customs and Excise, and Mr. A. W. Massey, on the candidates for appointment to the .position of sub-collector of customs and excise at Kingsville, Ontario.
. The department recommends the appointment of Mr. A. D. Pearsall and copy of letter from Mr. G. Graham, Assistant Inspector of Customs and Excise-
If his position had not been stated, I would have been inclined to believe it was the Right Hon. George P. Graham, my worthy opponent in the last election. It goes on:
-is enclosed respecting the candidates, and your attention is directed to his remarks concerning Mr. McCollum , whose assignment would not be acceptable to the department.
That letter is under date of June 19. 1925, and that is the last letter which the Minister of Customs has supplied to me-one under date of June 19, 1925. Now Mr. McCallum received his official appointment under date of June 25, 1925. Here is his notification from the Civil Service Commission to report for duty. It is under date of June 25, and was received by Mr. McCallum in Kingsville on June 26:
Civil Service Commission of Canada Notification of Report for Duty Name-Charles 'R. McCallum.	-
Address-Kingsville, Ontario.
Department-Customs and Excise.
Branch-Kingsville, Ontario.
Title of position-Sub -collector of Customs and Excise, outport, Kingsville, Ontario.
Duties-As specified in the official definition, and such other related work as may be required.
As I said, the last letter that has been supplied to me by the minister is under date of June 19, 1925; Mr. McCallum was appointed on the 25th day of June, 192o, so it is obvious that the minister has failed in every respect to give me any papers in connection with his dismissal, and that is what I asked for yesterday.


Georges Henri Boivin: I am sure that my hon.
friend will admit that all this took place
before I entered the department. I had no knowledge of it at all. After he had brought the matter up, I called upon my officers to give me copies of all the documents concerning the matters referred to in my hon. friend's remarks. He has reopened the subject to-day, and has indicated what he still further requires. I can only say that further investigation will be made and if any other letters of documents are found relating to this matter, they will be brought forward and given to my hon. friend.


Eccles James Gott: I would like to ask the minister this question:	If it is found that Mr. McCallum was entitled to that position, being a returned soldier, will he now be given consideration bv the minister?


Georges Henri Boivin: Certainly he will be given
consideration, and the entire facts will be reported at once to the members of the Civil Service Commission in order that the wrong done to Mr. McCallum, if wrong has been done, may be righted just as soon as possible.


Eccles James Gott: That is very satisfactory.


Mr. PETTIT:: May I a* the minister if
he has considered the advisability of establish-, ing a continuous night patrol between Niagara Falls and Fort Erie, along the Niagara boulevard? That is a very important stretch, and I think a continuous night patrol is very advisable. There should also be a boat patrol along the shore of lake Erie on the Canadian side, from Port Colborne for a distance of at least ten or twelve miles west of that port.


Georges Henri Boivin: The matter is not only under consideration, but I may say that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have a patrol at that point. We are now in communication with the chief of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for the purpose of ascertaining if it will not be possible for them to give us the men required to establish the continuous patrol suggested by my hon. friend. I cannot make any definite statement now.


George Hamilton Pettit: It should be a continuous
control.


Georges Henri Boivin: Oh yes. I have found that a patrol on a dangerous boundary is no good at all unless it is maintained for the twenty-four hours, because smugglers know the hours the patrol is maintained, and naturally take advantage of that knowledge. That is why I am giving serious consideration to the idea of erecting steel gates on boundary roads, but I admit frankly I have not yet decided that it would be the best plan that could be adopted.
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Mr. EVANS:: 
Peter McGibbon: I should like to draw the attention of the minister to a fact which I think is rather serious. It is that when an hon. member asks for a return from this government and it is brought down it is found to be incomplete. No less than four letters to be found on page 1271 of Hansard are missing from the return brought down at the request of the hon. member for South Essex (Mr. Gott). Surely it is a serious condition of affairs when documents are lacking from a return brought down at the request of a member of this House. That constitutes a serious situation which merits some consideration from the minister.


Georges Henri Boivin: I would agree with my hon friend if the documents which the hon. member -for South Essex has just read had really formed part of a return. The documents that I handed the hon. gentleman to-day were not in the form of a return to the House. They were sent to him in answer to a question that he asked the other day concerning the reasons why a certain person who had

passed the qualifying civil service examination had not been accepted by the department. The departmental officers gave me some letters which they thought would explain the matter, and I handed them to my hon. friend, but there was no intention to mislead parliament. If a request had been made for the complete file, all the letters would have appeared in the return. In fact if my hon. friend desires to have the complete file laid on the table, I shall be only too glad to see that his request is complied with.


John Wesley Edwards: I hope the hon. minister will not be unduly influenced by the suggestion of the hon. member for Rose town (Mi-. Evans). One of the great difficulties of the preventive officers is to stop the smuggling of liquor into this country. I was somewhat surprised, therefore, to hear the hon. member carry his free trade ideas to the extent of recommending a lowering of the duties on that commodity which the best talents of the preventive service are being exercised to keep out. It was also noticeable that the free trader from Rosetown did not advocate an entire removal of the duties, but a reduction. Consequently we can only assume that the hon. member, who regards anything in the way of protection as a vice and everything in the way of free trade as a virtue, prefers for the time being a measure of vice to complete political virtue. There is no other logical conclusion to arrive at than that the hon. member for Rosetown is compromising with vice, although as Pope says: Vice is a monster of so frightful a mien,
As, to be Oiated, needs but to ibe seen.
The hon. gentleman seems to have come to the point where having been compelled to endure protection for a while he will end up by embracing it.
I	cannot agree with the reasoning of the minister in regard to the qualifications of the Civil Service Commission to appoint men to the preventive service. As I understand it when a vacant position is advertised the qualifications required for that position are clearly set forth,, and the Civil Service Commission must judge whether or not the candidates possess those qualifications. Therefore I suppose that in advertising for a preventive officer the qualifications for the office would be distinctly specified, and the Civil Service Commission should be able to judge of the qualifications of the candidates as they do in the case of vacancies in the post office or other clerical positions. The fact of the matter is that so far as the Civil Service

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Commission is concerned a great change has come over the minds of hon. gentlemen on both sides of this House since that body was appointed. I very distinctly remember that when the matter came up in the House- and it gives me considerable satisfaction now, although I was in a very hopeless minority at the time-I opposed the transfer of political patronage to the Civil Service Commission. I opposed it at that time, and as the years have gone by I have been more than ever convinced that the position I took then was the correct position. I do not believe that any three or four men sitting in the city of Ottawa are as well qualified as local men in the various counties to determine who is or is not best fitted to fill local positions. I take the stand now that I took some years ago when this matter came up, that not the defeated candidate of the party in power, but the member elected, no matter to what political party he belongs, is the man who should assume full responsibility for such appointments and the advice given to the government with respect to them, and that he should stand or fall by his action. The people of his constituency will hold him responsible. If the man he nominates for a position does not fill the bill he will have to answer to his constituents and that is a course which I think should very well be followed.
The minister has intimated that he thinks appointments to the preventive service should be made in some other way. He has not indicated very clearly, to me at least, just how he thinks such appointments should be made, but I take it that he would want men who had had some training in military discipline at least. In that case why not utilize our permanent force and give them something to do besides walking around the barracks in different parts of the country.


Georges Henri Boivin: it do not think they would
have the training necessary to enable them to do the work.


John Wesley Edwards: I presume
they are all men of intelligence, and if they are, the department should be able to educate them as well as any other class. The tribute paid to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is none too high; you cannot praise that splendid force too highly. That class of men would undoubtedly give the same kind of service that has given the force a world-wide reputation.


Georges Henri Boivin: Let me put this question
to my hon. friend. I am very much interested in his views and I should like to have him tell me what he would think of
the idea of enlarging the scope of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and of confiding to them, or to a special branch of the organization, the preventive service of the country.


John Wesley Edwards: Well, that
might be all right in some respects; I do not see why those in the permanent force could not be utilized and taught their duties. But when you try to carry out that idea of the minister you are simply going round the Civil Service Commission; and back of it all you have the fact, expressed in a circuitous manner, that we have a Civil Service Commission, the members of which draw very good salaries, which is not competent to appoint officials in certain branches of the public service. That is a condemnation of the Civil Service Commission. I will back up the minister or anybody else in this House who will undertake absolutely to overhaul the whole of the Civil Service Commission.


Georges Henri Boivin: If I can get that same assertion of opinion from the majority of the members of this House, I will attempt to start the overhauling right off.


John Wesley Edwards: I cannot
speak and do not propose to speak for any other member on the Conservative side of the House. Certainly I would not presume to speak for my hon. friend from Lisgar (Mr. Brown) and I would be in wrong if I undertook to represent the views of the hon. member for Rosetown (Mr. Evans), or of others who profess to hold similar opinions. I cannot give the minister any guarantee beyond my own opinion-


Georges Henri Boivin: I did not ask for that.


John Wesley Edwards: I know he
did not. One thing is certain; it is time we had in the Department of Customs a minister who was seized with the responsibilities of his office. I am not going to express any opinion now in regard to the present occupant of the office, but the position strikes me as very peculiar. This government last session succeeded in putting through a vote of $350,000 for special work in connection with the prevention of smuggling, which they must have known and did know at that time was carried on to a large extent in this country. I am informed that up to the end of January of this year only $20,000 or $30,000 of that amount had been spent. What is the use of the government voting $350,000 for special preventive service and then coming forward and asking the people of the country to pat them on the back for their economy in not
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Hugh Guthrie: When this item was
under discussion on Tuesday last, the minister stated that there had been an increase in the staff of officials at Bridgeburg of some seven or eight who had been put on as car sealers at that rather important point. My object in asking a question on that occasion was to ascertain just what the facts were at Bridgeburg and also at Windsor in respect to the sealing of cars, because rumour had it that the system which had been employed at those points for some time past had been very loose and insufficient. The minister has kindly brought to the attention of the House to-day two reports made by Chief Inspector Busby of the Department of Customs and Excise, and these reports go exhaustively into the question of oar sealers at those important points, and confirm an impression which existed that little or no inspection of sealing and probqbly little or no sealing took place of cars moving on the railroads at those points between Canada and the United States.
The inspector is to be congratulated upon taking action in this matter. I see that he has recommended some seven additional car sealing inspectors at Bridgeburg, and also some six or seven at Windsor, to do work which I do not think could have been done before in. any satisfactory manner. The inspector in his report dated Bridgeburg, April 20, 1926, states-and I will not read all the report:
Accompanied by Inspector A. M. Kennedy and Supervising Officer G. A. Clark, I visited this date the Canadian National Railway freight yards at the port of Bridgeburg and ascertained that at this point during the fiscal year 1924-25 there were 209,672 cars entered Oanada and 191,132 cars were reported outward from Canada.
This is the paragraph:
The cars entering Canada at this point arrived from the Canadian National and Wabash yards at Black Rook, N.Y. Tyden. seals on such cars are stamped *with, the crown and port number by an officer at the port of Bridgeburg, and sent over to Black Rock in bundles of 1,000 to 2,000 seals to the agent o.f the railway there, where they are placed on the cars by employees of the railway company without the supervision of customs-excise officers.
That, evidently, was the system employed-sending the seals in bundles of 1,000 to 2,000 from Bridgeburg to Black Rock, where the railway employees placed them on the cars without any customs or excise inspection at all. The report continues:
These car seals are not examined by customs-excise officers 'when reported inwards at Bridgeburg, although occasionally some of such cars are examined and checked by the officer checking less than carload shipments when not engaged in checking goods out of cars which is very rarely.
The inspector very wisely recommends a change. He says:
To supervise the placing of seals on .the cars and the checking of same against inwards report, A-l, would require the services of four additional officers, two for day duty and two for night duty, to be placed in the yards of the Canadian National and Wabash railways at Black Rock, N.Y., under the supervision of Mr. Supervising Officer, G. A. Clark, at the expense of the Canadian National Railways, who would benefit thereby.
That recommendation I entirely approve. But the other branch of the report which deals with the Michigan Central railway contains no recommendation, so far as I can see. that the additional men placed in their yards shall be paid for by anyone but the government of Canada. The Canadian National for their convenience must pay for these men, but not so, if I understand the report aright, in the case of the Michigan Central. The report continues:-
We then visited the office of the Michigan Central railroad at the end of the international bridge, and examined into the manner in which train reports inwards and outwards are dealt with, and ascertained that seals have never been checked at this point, on cars entering or departing from Canada; which work is an the future to be dealt with by the four additional officers which it is proposed shall be placed at the yards of the Michigan Central railroad at Victoria.
The United States customs have officers stationed at this point-
That is, Bridgeburg.
-to examine and check seals on cars entering the United States at Black Rock, N.Y., from Bridgeburg, at the expense of the transportation companies concerned.
The United States has taken care of the situation in the interests of its government, but at the point where approximately 400,000 cars a year, 200,000 inward and 200,000 outward, cross the international bridge, no inspection in Canada of the sealing of those cars has taken place. There is an open door to smuggling. Cars unsealed entering Canada may very easily be opened in this country and goods discharged at any Canadian point, whereas these cars are supposed to be bonded going from one point in the United States through to another point, for instance Niagara Falls. The inspector is to be congratulated on having remedied that defect, which evidently was permitted to continue until some time during the last eight or ten months.
At Windsor the situation is as bad, if not worse. The inspector visited Windsor and this is what he said in his report dated April 14, 1925:
I might here state we first visited the ferry slip where the car ferries of the Wabash and Pere Marquette railways land cars for shipment to points in Canada on the Canadian Pacific Railway.
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Although we waited for some time, the officer was absent from the office and could not be located, the office being open and two bunches of Tyden seals stamped with the port number were lying in the window seat of such office, where a-ny person if they so desired could take same, instead of such seals being kept under Jock and key when not being used, as they should be.
The inspector goes on to report that seven additional officers of the department are necessary to see that a proper system of sealing and inspection takes place at Windsor. In regard to the sealing of cars coming into Canada, he says he thinks this might be done as a matter of convenience at Detroit instead of on the Canadian side of the line. He continues:
This would necessitate the services of four officers for whose services the Michigan Central railroad should be required to pay. These officers to be assigned to duty in the sealing yards of the Michigan Central railroad at Detroit, two on day duty and two on night duty.
The suggestion is that the Michigan Central pay for those, as they should do, because it is for their convenience. Further on the report states:
To carry out the proper checking of seals at this point in the Michigan Central yards it will be necessary that the services of four additional officers be provided for, unless the department agrees to the placing of the four officers at Detroit (at the expense of the Michigan Central railroad) dn which event all that will be necessary will be the moving of the officers now at the electric tower to the office to be provided at the summit of the Humps, to check trains reporting inwards and outwards on forms A-l and A-5.
It will also be necessary to provide .two additional officers 'at the Wabash and Canadian 'National car ferries' slips to check seals and car numbers against reports inwards and reports outwards, which at present is not being done owing*to the insufficiency of staff to take care of this work.
I bring this to the attention of the minister because, if this system has existed until recently at important points such as Bridge-burg and Windsor, what is the situation at other international points? What is the situation at international points in Quebec and in the west? Is the loose system which obtains at Bridgeburg and Windsor also in force at the suspension bridge at Niagara Falls? Unless these cars are sealed and unless they are property inspected after being sealed, the door is thrown wide Open to all kinds of smuggling. I would strongly impress upon the minister that it be his duty or the duty of some of his officers in the near future to see that this international freight traffic is properly inspected and the cars properly sealed. If we have not enough officers now to look after the sealing, more should be appointed and their salaries paid by the railways, for whose convenience they are appointed. I personally believe that the matter

has been discussed a good deal among railway and commercial men during the past two years, and I am glad to hear that at these points there has been a remedy applied.


Georges Henri Boivin: I agree entirely with my
hon. friend in what he has said concerning the report made by Inspector Busby. If, however, the remedy was not applied sooner, there is no official of the department who can share the blame with Inspector Budby. He has charge of the inspection at all of these points. He is a very competent official, but he has an enormous territory to cover. The sending of the seals by the customs officers in Canada to the employees of the railway in the United States to 'be affixed to the cars was in direct violation of the instructions given to these officers by the department, a violation which was discovered by the inspector. I might reassure my hon. friend by telling him that I am under the impression that when this inspection was made at Bridgeburg and at Windsor, an inspection was also made at Niagara Falls as well as at Sarnia, and it was found that the abuses which had crept in at those two points where we were obliged to apply the remedies, had not crept in at the other points, and the cars there were being properly sealed. I hope my hon. friends will allow the preventive service items to go through at once.


Henry Lumley Drayton: I thought it was only the one item.


Georges Henri Boivin: I think my hon. friend will
recall that the night before last, he stated than one of the principal reasons why he did not want this item to be passed then, was that it was intimately linked up with the succeeding items.


Henry Lumley Drayton: Quite so; I did not want discussion on one to be shut off from the others. In reference to this particular item, I was not concerned so much with it as I am with the other two. I just want to point out to my hon. friend that I do not think he should ask us to pass the other two items at all until the Customs committee has reported. This gives the House the only control it can have; it enables review and puts the House in the position of being able to go into this matter properly and fully from the fiscal standpoint. It would foe a very remarkable thing, I think, if under circumstances such as we are faced with to-day and in view of the charges which were imade-yes, and more than that; in the face of the admissions of the government-we should now pass these other votes which are intimately connected with the subject of the investigation. I think my hon.

Representation Act
friend will agree that the consideration, of these other two items should be postponed until after the committee reports.


Georges Henri Boivin: There is a great deal to be
said in favour of the view taken by my hon. friend, but if the inquiry instituted into the administration of the Department of Customs and Excise is to be thorough and efficient, it certainly will not be concluded for a very long time. It may last as long as the session itself. When its report comes before parliament every recommendation made will be open to discussion; the entire reorganization of the preventive service will be brought up, and I expect that suggestions will also be made to amend the Customs Act, and possibly the Excise Act in certain particulars. That will necessitate legislation attended by a long discussion, and I do appeal to my hon. friend to kindly allow us to dispose of these estimates now. If any further amount is required an item will be placed in the supplementary estimates. There will in any event be a supplementary item in connection with salaries and promotions for the present year. The difficulty with which we are confronted is, as I pointed out to my hon. friend when I started the discussion of these estimates, that unfortunately all the items are linked up, and if my hon. friend takes the course of Asking that the adoption of the item for $350,000, and the next item of $100,000 be deferred, he will hold up the entire estimate, and on the Votes and Proceedings of this House the labours of the new minister will go for naught; there will be nothing to show for the items that have already been passed. I do appeal to my hon. friend to pass the preventive service vote, with the understanding that the matter may again be thoroughly discussed when the report of the committee is presented, or on the supplementary estimates.
Sir HENRY DRiAYTON:	But my hon.
friend knows very well that the only control the House has over the government is in the matter of the funds to be voted. The government can) do just as they like about the other matters. I really thought my hon. friend would agree with me that the matter should not now be proceeded with. I feel that that, should be done, Mr. Chairman, and in order to bring the matter to a question I move that the Chairman do now leave the chair.


William Duff: That is hardly necessary; I will declare it six o'clock.


Henry Lumley Drayton: There is a
motion before the ch^r.


Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask-


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order, order.


Georges Henri Boivin: I hope my hon. friend will
at least allow me to ask a question. Does he desire by this motion to secure the withdrawal for the present of these other two items?


Henry Lumley Drayton: I want the
ordinary rules of the House to be applied. I have made a motion. I want to prevent these two items from being considered, as I do not think they should be considered.


Edward Joseph Garland: Just as a
point of information, Mr. Chairman, I desire to know if this motion means that all further discussion on these items is cut off.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Question.
Motion agreed to: Yeas, 74; Nays, 41.
At six o'clock the Speaker resumed the chair and the House took recess.
After Recess
The House resumed at eight o'clock.



REPRESENTATION ACT, 1924, AMENDMENT

[Stage Direction]
Mr. G. B. NICHOLSON (East Algoma) moved the second reading of Bill No. 10, to amend The Representation Act, 1924 (Boundaries of certain constituencies).
He said: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill, as shown by the bill itself, is to change slightly the description of the districts of Nipissing, South Timiskaming, North Timis-kaming, East Algoma, West Algoma, and Port Arthur. The bill has been introduced because of the almost unanimous request made to the representatives of these districts by the people within the areas concerned. Without going into any considerable detail, I may say that the bill in no material way affects the population in any of the ridings concerned, and this i3 more particularly tire fact because, due to the expansion that is taking place in certain sections of northern Ontario, the population is changing so rapidly that you cannot define any particular area on a basis of population at any period and have that remain stationary for more than a few months, let alone a considerable period of years. Just let me explain how the people affected are situated in relation to the distribution of these several districts. Take first the districts of Nipissing and South Timiskaming in relation to each other. The portion of South Timiskaming, as defined in the legislation of 1924. that will be taken away
revised Edition
Representation Act
[Stage Direction]
and added to the district of Nipissing under this bill is a. group of townships in the northwestern corner of the district of Nipissing. In order to get in touch with their representa-ti\e in South Timiskaming the people residing in these townships must travel a distance of about 170 miles through the district of Nipissing to North Bay and then a distance of 130 to 140 miles further through the district of Nipissing on the Timiskaming and Northern Ontario Railway to get back into that particular section in the district of South Timiskaming. They are just an isolated group of townships in one corner of the district of Timiskaming. And may I say here that I have discussed the matter with the representative of the district of Nipissing, and he agrees with me, or at least has so expressed himself, that these townships properly belong to the district of Nipissing. The only means of communication between these people and their representative now in the House and the place where they are grouped is for 200 miles across the Timagami forest reserve, or by a roundabout route of about 200 miles, all of which is through the district of Nipissing.
Let me come now to the next change that will be effected as between East Algoma and West Algoma. There is just a small group of communities with about 2,500 people in the northwestern corner of East Algoma that has been taken and put into West Algoma. Now in order for these people to get into touch with their representative who is now m the House they must travel eastward on the Canadian Pacific railway a distance of 172 miles to the town of Sudbury, and then turn westward and travel for 172 miles to Sault Ste. Marie. To put it in another way: In order for the representative of the riding to reach this particular part of his constituency he must travel through East Algoma a distance of about 340 miles. Then there is another single township where, in order for the representatives to reach that township, he must travel through East Algoma for a distance of 200 miles through a portion of the district of Nipissing, on to the district of South Timiskaming, and then for another 100 miles in East Algoma, to get to this one township.
Then in relation to the district of Port Arthur and West Algoma there is what was recognized as the southwest corner of the latter district situated about 100 miles from Sault Ste. Marie. And may I say, as most of you know, that is the centre of the district of West Algoma. In order for the representatives of these people, who now reside in Port Arthur because that place is the centre of the district of Port Arthur, to get

in touch with this particular section he must travel 280 miles eastward on the Canadian Pacific railway. Then getting into the district of West Algoma he travels about 140 miles, reaches the district of Port Arthur and then goes back again into West Algoma in order to reach this small group of communities which, as I previously stated, are 100 miles from the city of Sault Ste. Marie. I think I am well within the mark when I say that the people affected are themselves unanimous in their demand that they be replaced in the district from which, I believe, they were inadvertently removed. I think I can say that the representatives from all these districts are unanimous in their desire that the boundaries shall be restored, and that the constituencies shall bear some relation to the convenience of the people in getting in touch with their representative, and to the convenience of the representative in getting in touch with their people. I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that the bill be referred to the committee on Private Bills where the details can be fully and frankly discussed, and care taken to see that nothing of an injurious character is worked out in relation to any part of this district.
Ernest Lapointe: Does not my hon. friend think that the committee on Privileges and Elections would be the more natural committee to deal with this matter than the Private Bills committee?


Mr. NICHOLSON:: I cannot see how this matter has any relation whatever to the subject of privileges and elections. However, I have no objection to the bill being referred to any committee that is empowered to deal with it logically and would be prepared to go into the details of the whole matter. I have absolute faith in the logic of the whole proposal. I am perfectly certain that no objection to it can be raised from any quarter. All that I ask is that any committee of the House properly constituted to handle this matter shall deal with these details and decide the matter fairly.


Mr. E. A. LAPIERRE (Nipissing):: As
representing one of the constituencies named in the bill submitted by the hon. member (Mr. Nicholson) I wish to explain under what circumstances the section of South Timiskaming is in the situation which has been outlined by my hon. friend. The House will recall that during the redistribution which took place in the last session of the last parliament three distinct constituencies had to be carved out of Nipissing and Timiskaming. It was found later that the population of the two



IS, 1926 16S7

[Stage Direction]
Representation Act
constituencies of Timiskaming and Nipissing contained 102,000-36,000 being adopted as the basis of representation in order to form the three constituencies. With regard to that portion of Nipissing which now forms part of South Timiskaming, it contains, although at a considerable distance from the resident population, the only population that is available to form another constituency. There is no other way by which an equal partition of the two constituencies could be arrived at in order to grant a fair representation to the three new ridings. This, Mr. Speaker, was certainly not done in order to favour the district of Nipissing, as the section which was removed from that constituency was composed almost entirely of French-Canadian voters who protested to me against being separated from the riding of Nipissing. It was found, however, by the committee that it was absolutely necessary to take out that much of the population in order to give to South Timiskaming the required number of people. The proposal was finally accepted, and I feel the decision of the Redistribution committee should stand. For that reason I am opposed to the motion.
Ernest Frederick Armstrong: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on
this subject because it directly affects the district from which I come. Never before in the history of political divisions in the north has that district which comes near Sudbury been included in South Timiskaming. To make the situation plain to hon. members, I may say that this corner comprising about
4.000	people coming within three miles of the town of Sudbury has been cut off and attached to South Timiskaming. This really means a district commencing at about Cobalt, 200 miles away. In other words this small population which, since the earliest days of settlement, has belonged to the community around the town of Sudbury, has been cut off and thrown across the forest reserve 200 miles away, and there are not fifty people between the two communities. That means that the member representing that district in Cobalt has to go 100 miles south into the Nipissing district to North Bay. Then he has to go eighty or ninety miles west to Sudbury, then take a car and go fifteen or twenty miles up through the Blizzard valley into the Capreol district. The people down there are among the finest settlers in this country. They -went in there as pioneers, they have hewn out for themselves their homes, and they very much dislike this treatment. They are associated with the conditions and problems affecting the district around Sudbury and their interests are the same. They know 14011-107i
each other. They know no person in Timiskaming. They know us not at all. Our problems are not the same. We are 200 miles away and for that reason I say the present adjustment of the boundaries of that district is very unfair. On the other hand, the representative from Nipissing spoke very well along the line of representation, and I wish to say a word on that phase of the subject. Let us take the district which includes South Lorraine, Cobalt, Haileybury, New Liskeard, and that beautiful town of Engle-hart; Charlton, Gowganda, Elk Lake and Swastika, Kirkland Lake and the splendid farming community in their vicinity. Kirkland Lake alone had added a population of 4,000' or 5,000 to this district since the last redistribution. That country has picked1 up
7,000	or 8,000 additional people since the last redistribution. To my mind that offsets any argument against not having sufficient population in that north district to carry the representation. I submit that the present condition is unfair to the people of both places. To run an election up there is like carrying on an election in two districts; and it is in harmony with the ideas and aspirations of the people of both the north and the south sections that they should be sent back to their old lines, the old historical community to which they belonged when they went into that country as settlers.


Ernest Lapointe: Nobody who is unacquainted with
the geography of that particular district can discuss this matter with a large degree of intelligence, but as you know, Mr. Speaker, the matter of adjusting the boundaries of a constituency comes up after every census is taken. We have what is called the redistribution of the constituencies of Canada. It was carried through last year, indeed, in such a way as to exclude partisanship. A committee of members representing all the provinces and every party in this House sat for many weeks, or I should say many months. Sub-committees were formed. Members on both sides of the House representing every province were entrusted with the task of going over the map, of hearing representations from interested parties in the various districts, and after discussion and consideration to the fullest degree, those sub-committees agreed, and the committee itself agreed, on the redistribution that was made. A unanimous report was presented to the House, so far as I remember, and the redistribution as made was accepted unanimously by this House. Under the circumstances it is rather unusual to ask to change the boundaries of a constituency, but

Representation Act
I am quite willing to accede to the demand that this bill be referred to a committee. However, I believe the committee on Privileges and Elections is the one to which it should be referred, because it is a public matter, and that committee is composed of members who could easily deal with it.


Hon. R. J. MANION (Fort William):: I
am pleased to hear the minister take the very reasonable attitude he has taken in this matter. I am not affected at all and I have nothing to say against his remarks about the work of the committee last year. They had a very difficult task to perform, and I think they performed it pretty well. There was a good deal of compromising, and that is where the difficulty arose in regard to the constituencies which are now being dealt with. None of the constituencies mentioned touches my constituency, so that I am speaking not personally but simply as one from that great section of northern Ontario which requires some special consideration in a matter of this kind, consideration which the Minister of Justice has fairly agreed to give it, because the area is so immense.
If you will look at the map you will find that the area of northern Ontario, with its
150,000	people or thereabouts, is a number of times greater than the area of all the rest of Ontario put together, yet there are only eight constituencies up there. I do happen to know that in the compromises which took place in the committee last year the constituency of East Algoma was changed a little, I do not mean to say unfairly, but a little unfairly to the constituency as a constituency. I am not speaking of parties. For example, without naming places, one town, the centre of East Algoma, was taken out of East Algoma and put in West Algoma and made very much more awkward to get at by virtue of that fact.
As the Minister of Justice has agreed to leave this to a committee, I do not wish to take up the time of the House, but I wish to offer a suggestion. I have not discussed it with the member who proposes the bill, but I suggest that a special committee should be appointed, made up of members in proportion as to parties of course, but taking in any territory largely affected. The member for Nipissing would be one of them: it would include the other members from the district, and the committee could be balanced up with other members, if you will. I do not know whether that suggestion would be acceptable to the member who proposes the bill, but it would appear to me to be the fairest method of dealing with the matter. I have talked 
the matter over with the member for East Algoma and I am convinced that his whole idea is one simply of making all of the constituencies more convenient to handle. That is something that should be taken into account where those large areas exist, because some of the constituencies up there are hundreds of miles wide and hundreds of miles long, and anything that can be done to make them a little more convenient to handle is certainly good, not only for the members who run but for the people who live in that part of the country.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: In reference to the suggestion just made by the hon. member, I think he will agree that it would be possible for hon. members specially interested to appear before the committee and make clear to its members their respective points of view. There is an objection to having a large number of special committees appointed. The House has found in the past that where there are a number of special committees, sitting frequently when the House is in session, it is a source of embarrassment, and leads to an accumulation of reports to be considered at the end of the session. We have a committee on Privileges and Elections, and its personnel is such I believe, as will commend itself to the House. There appears to be general agreement as to the propriety of referring the bill itself to a committee: I hope we may all be able to further agree to referring it to the committee on Privileges and Elections.


Arthur Meighen: There is only one precedent, so far as I can remember, and that was in 1919 when the then member for Chilliwack, Mr. Stacey, sought to have the name of his constituency changed from Chilliwack to Fraser Valley, and endeavoured to do so by way of amendment to the Representation Act. Consequently the bill is on all fours in so far as its character and status in this House are concerned. That bill was not referred to any standing or special committee; it was referred to the committee of the whole House and having passed through the committee of the whole House and third reading, it became law. There is some objection which I can understand to referring a public bill to the Private Bills committee, and if the hon. member is prepared to have the bill go to a committee at all, I do not see any objection to accepting the intimation of the leader of the House and having the bill go to the committee on Privileges and Elections.

Representation Act
The precedent would indicate that it should simply go through without reference to any special committee, but I take no stand on that matter. Let it go to the committee on Privileges and Elections.


Mr. PETER HEENAN (Kenora-Rainy River):: As a member representing, I think,
the largest constituency in that part of Ontario, I agree with a great deal of what has been said on the other side of the House, but. I have a suggestion that probably is the best one that has yet been made, and that is that we redistribute the whole of northern Ontario. Perhaps a committee appointed to do that work would be more appropriate. We in the Kenora-Rainy River district are not satisfied with the territory that has been alloted to us, and telegrams were sent to the Prime Minister at Ottawa shortly after the Redistribution bill went through. Some of the towns that had been included in the Kenora-Rainy River district for 'many years were cut off and put into the Port Arthur-Fort William territory, and now that they happen to have Conservative representation they are not at all happy.


Robert James Manion: The constituencies of which my hon. friend speaks have not had anything but Conservative representation for ten years.


Mr. JACOBS:: I thought we had Union
government for part of that time.


Robert James Manion: That was Conservative
too.


Peter Heenan: I was wondering if that
was the reason why my hon. friend (Mr. Manion) always answered when some hon. member called him the member for Rainy River. Now that those people have seen the light and have changed over from the representation they have had in the last ten years, I think northern Ontario should be redistributed in a proper manner. I agree with the hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson) that there is a great deal of misunderstanding and hardship in connection with the redistribution in northern Ontario, but just because an hon. member brings in a bill to strengthen one particular portion of it, and deal with that alone will not be satisfactory to northern Ontario as a whole. Consequently I would like my suggestion to be accepted, that we appoint a committee to redistribute the whole of northern Ontario.
Mr. J. R. O'NEILL (North Timiskaming): The riding which I represent is affected physically, but not on the basis of population. I descry in the suggestion of the hon. member
.for Kenora-Rainy River (Mr. Heenan) an appeal for the administration of extreme unction in his case. He refers to the hon. member for Fort William (Mr. Manion) taking unto himself the honour of representing Rainy River, but I think there is a great deal more in this suggestion than meets the ear, and so I would oppose the suggestion of the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River. I am in favour of the suggestion emanating from the hon. member for East Algoma, not that it affects my riding on the basis of population, but there is predominant in the minds of the people of that riding one idea, namely, that the redistribution of that territory constituted one of the crudest pieces of gerrymandering ever perpetrated in the political history of Canada. While that is a strong statement, and the hon. member for East Algoma was very generous in his suggestion in reference to the matter, I am rather inclined to think that if the situation were otherwise, hon. members on the opposite side of the House would be quite prepared to admit that something was radically wrong. The basis of revision may be in proportion to population at the present time, but the inaccessibility is such that it is practically impossible for the people represented there to reach their representatives without going out of their riding or out of the particular section of the country. For that reason I am prepared to favour the proposal coming from the hon. member for East Algoma.


George Brecken Nicholson: I do not know Whether this bill could be amended in the manner which the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River (Mr. Heenan) has suggested, but I recall that I had a brief conversation with him in connection with the matter, and he said to me: "I hope you are not interfering with my riding." The hon. member will notice that this bill refers specifically to ridings east of his riding, and has no relation whatsoever to it. il am quite satisfied and other members with whom I have discussed the matter and who represent constituencies concerned, are quite satisfied to have the bill referred to ithe committee as suggested by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) and the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King).


Ernest Lapointe: Of course that does not
mean that we accept the principle.


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to, and bill read- the second time and referred to the committee on Privileges and Elections.
Exploitation of Labour

Mr. DOUCET:: For a copy of all documents, correspondence, letters, declarations, and other papers, in connection with the investigation held by the investigating poet office inspector in the charges brought against Mrs. George Seguin, Postmistress of Rigaud, Vaudreuil-Soulanges, Quebec.



EXPLOITATION OF LABOUR


Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Alberni) moved:: That, in the opinion of this House, every effort should be made to affirm and establish the full industrial freedom of the citizens of Canada to bargain for their services on all industrial contracts and works; that the exploitation or conscription of labour should be prevented and condemned; that no person should be induced or compelled by undue influence, threats of dismissal, loss of wages or (position or (by any other unfair and improper (means, to .work for wages less than the standard or to engage in work which he has not agreed to do; that in all cases sueh wages as are generally accepted as current in each trade for competent workmen in the district where the work is carried out should be enforced and paid; and that this House will, so far as it is within the jurisdiction of parliament, endorse every reasonable and legtimate proposal to preserve such industrial freedom of contract and action, and will oo-operate with the several provinces in these objects to provide for uniform legislation throughout Canada.
He said; Mr. Speaker, this resolution is really very simple, and one which I am sure will readily receive support from all sides of the House, although perhaps its length and somewhat involved wording might give a different idea. The underlying principle is very simple. I had to have it somewhat loosely drawn, and expressed in somewhat [DOT].general terms, in order to bring it within the *scope of discussion in this House, otherwise -it. would have been framed in very much More simple language. Despite its general language, however, this resolution seems to have already given offence in some quarters.
I hold in my hand an editorial taken from a paper called The Gazette and presumably published in the city of Montreal, in which great offence is taken at this resolution. I have heard it said-I had no previous knowledge personally-that this paper is more or less devoted to what is known as the vested interests of Canada. If that is so, it certainly is anxious to prove its fidelity, because it is howling before anyone is hurt.
I see featured at the head of this editorial the fact that the paper was founded in 1778, 148 years ago, and apparently the political ideas current and acceptable then still hold sway in the editorial offices of this

paper to-day, 150 years later. The editorial is one long sneer, I might say, or one long attempt to be somewhat cheaply sarcastic at the expense of this resolution and of myself. I will leave out the personal allusions, which do not hurt me and will not interest this House. I notice repeated allusion in the editorial that they do not understand what the resolution means. If they do not understand what it means, why do they attack it? Why do they not wait until they get light on the subject; why devote a whole column of a so-called important paper in talking of "hat they do not know? It almost suggests to the onlooker the old fashioned idea that to the ignorant everything unknown is suspicious, and therefore must be attacked.
I would just like to draw attention to one or two items; I would not think of delaying the House by reading all of it. The editorial says:
If be (Mr. Neill) is sincerely desirous o-f establishing industrial freedom, he will stop composing resolutions out of trades union catchwords.
And so on. I wonder what the really learned and capable King's Counsel who devoted a good deal of his time in drafting that resolution would say if he heard that his best success was a composition of trade union catchwords, whatever they may be. I do not think the editor would have used that language if he had known who really drafted that resolution. The ignorance displayed in the editorial is almost pitiable. It asks with fine sarcasm:
But when and how and where has labour in this country been conscripted?
I will show that presently, and to enlighten their ignorance I might say that it has been the law of the land for more than three years. Further they begin a discussion of the eight hour day; I do not know why, because it has nothing to do with my resolution. In putting up a man of straw in order to knock it down again, they say that no province of Canada has introduced the eight hour law. Poor, simple Gazette; they do not know that British Columbia has had that law on the statute books for several years. Again we find this gem, which is really worth consideration:
The individual workman has, and has always had, the abstract right to make the best of his market, to sell his labour upon fair terms or to withhold it.
Inferentially they imply "What more does he want?" I looked up in the dictionary the meaning off "abstract" and I find the word means "existing in the mind only; not con-

Exploitation oj Labour
Crete'', so reading it with that meaning, the sentence would be:
The individual workman has, and has always had, the right existing in the mind only, not concrete, to make the best of his market, to sell his labour upon fair terms or to withhold it.
That might have been good political dogma 148 years ago, but the editor of this paper should remember that times have changed, and that we must move with the world or be left very much behind. What was extreme radicalism a few years ago is now being accepted by many of the Conservative governments of the world, and rights which exist only in the imagination are no longer satisfactory to the great body of the working people, who are more intelligent than they were 148 years ago. So much for The Gazette, with its ancient fossilized doctrines.
I think I can express in twenty words the real meaning of what I wish to bring before the House in this resolution. I will leave out everything else, and just recite those twenty words, taken from the resolution:
That the exploitation or conscription of labour should be prevented and condemned; that no person should be compelled to work for wages less than the standard	
That, and that only, is the underlying motive o-f the resolution Which I am presenting to the House to-night. Before I deal particularly with the word "conscription", I wish to prevent any misunderstanding in regard to that word. I am not talking now of conscription in war time. So far as that kind of conscription is concerned, I am in favour of it, but I stand for conscription of all kinds; conscription of 4he millionaire as well as the pauper; conscription of capital as well as labour; conscription of the civilian at home as well as the man in the trenches, but I am not now talking about that kind of conscription of labour. I refer now to peace time conscription of labour. The Gazette wanted to know where and when and how labour was conscripted in peace time. If the editor of the Gazette will turn to chapter 93 of the Revised Statutes of British Columbia, 1924, he will find these words.
Any officer or employee of the Forest branch may employ or summon the assistance of any male person between the ages of eighteen and sixty, except only trainmen, telegraphers, and despatches on duty, doctors, and persons physically unfit-
They do not say anything about being mentally unfit.
.-for the purpose of controlling and extinguishing any fire, and the compensation for such voluntary or compulsory assistance shall be such as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council may provide.
They may take a judge from the bench or a member of parliament from his office and ' put him out to fight bush fires in the country. There is a rather serious penalty imposed of not less than $25 and not more than $100 in case of refusal to do so. That has been the law for the last three years.
Bush fires do not generally occur in towns, and consequently there is not much likelihood of professional and other people in urban centres 'being conscripted for fire-fighting purposes; the burden falls upon the country workers, and the remuneration that the government kindly accords them is 25 cents an hour, or $2 for an eight-hour day. That is not the current rate of wages in British Columbia.
I have before me an announcement that the scale of wages for the lowest outdoor labouring class in the city of Vancouver shall in the future be $4.50 a day; I think before that it was $4 a day. The government therefore makes a cut of 56 per cent in what is the current rate of wages in the city of Vancouver when they compulsorily conscript men to go out and fight fires. Then again it is not the $3.50 or $4 or $4.50 men generally upon whom this obligation falls. Naturally being in the buSh, it falls on men working in logging camps, such as trainmen, swampers and hook tenders, who get pretty high wages because they are engaged in dangerous and seasonal work which can be carried on only during a limited number of months each year. In the summertime they are laid off on account of danger from bush fires, and in the winter their operations are interrupted by heavy snow or rain; so when they are working, being highly skilled technical men, they get wages above the ordinary level, running from $5 to $9 a day. Suppose they are earning $6 a day, and are suddenly called off to work at $2 a day, that means a cut of 66 per cent. The Dominion government relieves itself of responsibility as regards its own employees by the fair wage resolution adopted by this House in July 1900, which was confirmed and made more effective by order in council in June 1922. We all know that this fair wage policy compels contractors and other employers to pay the current rate of wages for their particular trade in their particular locality.
Now, that is all I ask here, that when a man is taken against his will to fight bush fires he shall be paid the current rate of wages. Incidentally, I may say that this work almost invariably results in the destruction of his boots, and boots are costly in British Columbia. That, as I say, is all I suggest- these men should not be conscripted unless on the basis of their current rate of wages.
Exploitation of Labour

I am aware that this is not a matter in which this parliament can legislate, and that is why I have brought it up in this somewhat indefinite way. What I do want-


George Brecken Nicholson: Before the hon. gentleman leaves that point, may I ask, for information, whether he advocates by his resolution that authority to conscript men to fight bush fires in case of serious fire hazards in newly settled countries shall be taken away?


Alan Webster Neill: No, but I do not think men should be conscripted in times of peace at a compulsory wage fixed by the other party. They should be allowed an opportunity either to bargain for their wages, or in case of emergency they should be paid the standard wage that they are earning at their regular work. That is all I can ask this House to do. This being a matter of civil rights, I cannot ask that the provincial government shall be directed not to conscript labour for this purpose at less than the current rate of wages. I would only ask for expressions of opinion from the very able legal gentlemen on both sides of the House whether such legislation on the part of the local government is not really ultra vires. It would seem to me to be going beyond their jurisdiction. As far as civil rights are concerned, I am aware that it is within' their jurisdiction.
Apart from that, I would ask this House to at least go as far as to express moral disapproval of this action on the part of a provincial government, If it is legal and right in one-ninth of Canada to conscript men to fight fires at a wage to be fixed by those doing the conscripting, then by following the same logic it might be pronounced equally right to conscript men to cut logs or to do some other work which in the opinion of the authorities was needed at a wage which they considered should be such and so. In other words, I would point out that if the House passes this resolution it commits us to nothing except the expression of a sort of moral disapproval of conscripting men in times of peace to fight fires at a rate of wages from 50 to 66 per cent below the current wages in the locality for that kind of work.


James Alexander Robb: There are some features of this resolution to which I take no exception whatever. But I notice in the first place my hon. friend says that the essence of his resolution is that the conscription of labour should be prevented and condemned, and if I followed him correctly, he finds some fault because in one of the provinces men are compelled to turn out and help fight bush fires. I cannot follow him that CMr. Neill.]	I
far. I think in times of such hazard the state must take some means to protect its property.
But there is another feature of his resolution which appeals to me:
That no .person should be induced or compelled by undue influence, ithreats of dismissal, loss of wages or position, or by any other unfair and improper means, to work for wages less than the standard or to engage in work which he has not agreed to do.
I find myself in sympathy with that part of the resolution to a certain degree because I have observed during a residence of some years in an industrial town and while going about the country in the recent general election that in certain industries notices sometimes are posted warning the employees that unless they voted in a particular way they will lose their position the day after the 9 p.m. election. It seems to me that every hon. member, no matter what party he supports, should repudiate such oppressive tactics on the part of large corporations. I do not mean to say that this applies particularly to federal elections. I have observed it even in municipal elections, when certain corporations were looking for concessions from the municipality.
So having that in mind, I am prepared to accept the resolution, for it covers an abuse that, it seems to me, should be corrected.
Mi-. E. B. RYCKMAN (East Toronto): Mr. Speaker, I have read this resolution for the first time, to-night. The hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) has toldi us that a learned king's counsel drew it. I would like to know his name, because I think he was somewhat of a wag-that he tried to make fun of the hon. member. This resolution does not deal with matters within the competence of this parliament; it deals with matters within the competence of the provincial legislatures. Anything that the hon. member for Comox-Alberni has saidi has related to a provincial statute, and the gravamen of the charge made by the hon. member is that in case of a conflagration endangering the safety of property, men should be allowed to stand idly by and not serve unless they have the dollars and cents passed over the counter to them. I am reminded of those ladies who were in a seminary which was burning up. It being after six o'clock at night when the firemen came up the ladders to rescue them, they declined to be rescued, unless the firemen were in evening dress. Such is the effect of this resolution. I maintain, Mr. Speaker, that unless there is something that this august body has well within its competence it should not deal or attempt to deal with something that, notwithstanding

Exploitation oj Labour
what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) has said, is altogether outside the jurisdiction of this parliament.


George Brecken Nicholson: I have no objection whatsoever to the principle of this resolution, if there is a principle, but I do object to the affirmation of a principle condemning something that does not exist. As one who has had a life's experience in dealing with labour and workingmen's problems I say at once that in the province of Ontario at least and the parts of Canada in which I have had experience, no such condition exists. Men cannot be conscripted for ordinary labour against their will, nor can they be forced to accept wages that do not suit them.
With relation to the matter of fighting fires, let me just give you an illustration. We have had some harrowing experiences in recent years in the matter of fires in the part of Canada from which I come. Just recall, if you will, the fire at Haileybury, where about two o'clock in the afternoon a fire swept across the forest and wiped out that town completely. Would you say that the authorities of the town of Haileybury, or the provincial authorities represented there, should have to wait and start to bargain with people when they need their help to go and rescue the women and children whose homes were being devastated? That is what is involved in this resolution. So far as conscripting workingmen, and not the professional and business men, is concerned, again I say that no such condition exists. If you go back to the fires in Timmins, Englehart and Cochrane, when those towns were being wiped out it was the business men, the doctors, the lawyers, the clergymen, the railway officials and every other man who could go who went to the assistance of these people.


Alan Webster Neill: Were they conscripted?


George Brecken Nicholson: Those who were unwilling were conscripted. The provincial government of Ontario places in the hands of those who are responsible for looking after fires in the north country authority to conscript men. The fire inspector has authority to come along to any man's plant, and take the superintendent of the sawmill, for instance, or the superintendent of a pulp mill and all his men, tie the whole plant up, and take the men to go and fight the fire. They do not, as my hon. friend says, pay them an arbitrary rate of wages of $2.50 a day. Not at all. The fire superintendent or the man in charge of the fire fighting forces of the provincial government has authority to pay these men what
they are worth and what they earn, and they pay extra money for this hazardous work. Why should we in this House of Commons pass a resolution that implies they are not doing that? That is the objection I have.
In so far as giving any man the freedom to bargain for any rate of wages he wishes to get, that is the recognized principle all over this country. There is no such thing as conscription of labour, nor is any effort made to hinder men from bargaining and getting everything they possibly can for their labour. That is recognized as their right; it has been so, and it will continue to be so. But do not let us place a stigma on the provincial authorities of a province just because certain conditions might obtain in some other province. If such conditions prevail elsewhere, then deal with the provincial authorities in that province.


William Lyon Mackenzie King: The emphasis which is
being laid in this discussion on one particular phrase, not to say word, in the resolution which the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) has presented, is I fear directing attention away from the main purpose of the resolution. So far as there has been adverse criticism of what the hon. member has proposed, it has been to his including in his resolution the word " conscription," and the conscription of labour referred to has been restricted to conscription in cases of fire. The hon. member has made his meaning quite clear. When he used the words "exploitation or conscription," what he evidently intended to convey by the alternative word "conscription" was neither more nor less than what is conveyed by the word "exploitation;" and I would suggest to him, if that is what is in his mind, that it might remove any difference of view that the House may have on the essential parts of the resolution if he dropped the word "conscription" altogether, and just let that part of his resolution read "the exploitation of labour should be prevented and condemned."
I say this because I think the resolution itself is an important one and should be adopted by this House. It contains two or three fundamental principles on which all hon. members will, I trust, be prepared to agree. The first is a statement of the principle of freedom of contract and bargaining in the relations of capital and labour. That is a principle for which men have had to fight many industrial battles in the past, but which, happily, to-day is coming to be recognized as a principle which should be generally accepted. I venture to say there is not a member of this House who would stand up
Exploitation of Labour

in his place and say that he did not think it was in the interests of the community, as well as in the interests of capital and labour, that there should be the greatest freedom of bargaining in the making of contracts between the two great parties to industrial contracts.


Mr. RYCKMAN:: If the resolution is carried, will the Prime Minister bring in a bill embodying its terms?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: If my hon.
friend will be satisfied with half a loaf, instead of asking at once for a whole loaf, more progress will perhaps be made towards achieving what my hon. friend has in view. I take it that the view of the hon. member is this: In industrial questions, public opinion in the long run is more effective in achieving the object that is to be desired than mere legislation; that, after all, it is public opinion that will determine whether or not industrial laws will be respected. It is not the number of measures there may be on the statutes; it is rather the extent to which communities recognize that public sentiment is in accord with particular views.
My hon. friend has expressed two or three views here which it seems to me this parliament would do a national service in endorsing. One is the view already mentioned that there should be freedom of bargaining between capital and labour in the matter of industrial contracts. The second is that there should be no exploitation of labour, a term which I think is generally understood to mean the sweating of labour, employing labour under unfair conditions. The hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson) has said that there is nothing of the kind in Ontario. I wish that could be said truly. I think there is less of it at present than there has been at any time heretofore, but I venture to say that all of the provinces of this Dominion present instances where labour is being sweated in a manner which I am sure all hon. members would do their utmost to stop if it were brought to their knowledge and attention. If this parliament expresses its view against the exploiting or the sweating of labour, public opinion formed on the basis of our expression of view may go far towards meeting the very object the hon. member has in mind in moving this resolution. The suppression of sweating is the second principle for which the resolution stands.
The third principle that my hon. friend affirms in his resolution is that of fair wages in contracts. He uses the phrase:
That the wages should be those that are generally accepted as current in each trade for a competent workman in the district where the work is carried out.

Now that phrase, as I recognize it, is one that has been in the public contracts of the federal government for the last twenty-five years. It was I think in 1900 that what is spoken of as "the fair wages resolution" was first introduced into this parliament. Since that time public contracts, whether they related to public works or to the making of uniforms for post office officials or for the militia, or any other form of public contract work-have contained clauses to prevent the sweating of labour and to secure for the labour engaged on these contracts the payment of wages at fair rates and the carrying out of the work under proper conditions. This House has already adopted a fair wages resolution, a resolution using the very language we are now asked to affirm. I might add that the resolution adopted originally by this House has in substance been adopted since by most if not all the legislatures of Canada with respect to the public contracts of the provinces. There is reason to believe that the resolution of this parliament has been copied by other countries as well. It is the power of example that my hon. friend is seeking to have exerted.
That brings me to the fourth point which my hon. friend mentions in his resolution, namely the importance of co-operation between the several provinces in order to secure uniform legislation throughout Canada. I might mention that, within the past four years, if I am not mistaken, we have already held a conference of the provinces under federal auspices to effect that very purpose. I believe that uniformity of industrial standards is one of the most important objects to be attained by legislation. In Canada it should be our aim to bring about, if at all possible, uniformity of legislation among the several provinces. It is important for this reason: if there is not uniformity it very often happens that the particular province that has higher standards in labour ultimately loses in consequence of the lower standards that exist in other provinces. The higher standard is undermined by the lower to the disadvantage of the particular industry which may be enjoying the highest standard. I remember some years ago looking into the question of sweating in industry, I found that in some of the American states where the clothing industry was carried on, that as one state raised its standards *of legislation with respect to fair working conditions the labour employed in that industry was gradually supplanted by labour enjoying a lower standard in another state, and the state that was really seeking to preserve a high -standard of labour was losing its industries.

Exploitation of Labour
as a consequence. Now the only way in which that sort of thing can be prevented is that there shall be like industrial standards over areas of effective competition however wide they may be. The League of Nations has seen the importance of that principle and has laid down in its labour clauses as an object to be aimed at the establishment of uniformity of industrial conditions not only as between the provinces of any one country but as between the different countries of the world; and I really believe it is a fact that until in some way the standards are made equal in the different countries, those countries that have higher standards are going to some extent to be handicapped in virtue of those very higher standards they have adopted.
I can perhaps illustrate what I mean by referring to what is known as "Gresham's law of the precious metals". It was discovered many years ago, in relation to matters of currency, that where there were the two metals in circulation, the baser metal tended to drive the better out of circulation, the coins made of metal of finer quality were hoarded or else were melted down and the metal used in the fine arts, and the coins made of the baser metal gradually replaced them in circulation. I believe that the so-called law of competing standards as applied to the precious metals is equally applicable in the matter of competing standards in industry, that where you have a lower industrial standard and a higher industrial standard competing with each other, the former tends to undermine the latter; the industry that is run on the lower standard will effectively and prejudicially embarrass that industry which seeks to support higher standards.
I believe speaking generally there is no country in the world that enjoys higher standards of industry than our own. From the national point of view, I believe there is everything to be said in favour of a resolution that will help to convey to the world the knowledge that the parliament of Canada supports the broad principle of uniformity of legislation with respect to fair wages with respect to conditions in industrial contracts, with respect to freedom from exploitation and with respect to freedom ^ in industrial bargaining. For that reason, for the moral support that parliament is able to give these great principles, I hope the House will adopt the resolution.


George Brecken Nicholson: Before the right hon. gentleman concludes, will he permit me to ask one question: Does he know of any part of Canada where a condition prevails under which freedom of bargaining is denied to workingmen? If he does not, does he think
it is fair to the workingmen themselves or to organized labour or to industry in this country, that a resolution should go out from the parliament of Canada implying that there does exist a condition by which the workingmen can be exploited in the manner indicated in this resolution against their own will?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: I think we will have to strain the meaning of the resolution a good deal in order to interpret it as a reflection on Canada. As I read the motion it says that every effort shall be made to affirm a certain principle. To my mind that would imply that the principle is more or less assented to and that we want to affirm it. That is my reading of what the resolution means rather than the view expressed by the hon. gentleman.


Arthur Meighen: I have very little to say on the resolution itself. In so far as its specific terms go, were it a matter within our own competence I do not know that I would take any exception at all. It is all very true that the resolution says there shall be no conscription of labour, and that the member who moves the resolution in his interpretation of it himself declared that that should apply even to cases of extraordinary emergency such as a conscription to fight fire. The reading of the resolution itself does not necessarily embrace such a case at all, and I think the hon. member was poorly advised in going so far as to assert that he would strain his own words to the extent of saying that in the case of a great conflagration he would not have legislation on the statute book compelling the compulsory combating of that conflagration. He did make an exception in the case of war. He said that in case of peace he would have no conscription of labour but in case of war it would be different. Well, the conflagration is precisely of the same character; it is because it is of the same character that sometimes it becomes essential to resort to the same means. The reason is only too evident. It is because there can be no possibility of consideration or of bargaining on the one hand that it cannot be allowed on the other. The time does not permit of it; you cannot have it. Consequently the duty of the moment must be performed. All other rights must be submerged. As to the remuneration, that is a minor question. Something is to be said for a remuneration, something below the standard in a case of that kind. Nothing has been said in support of it, although I think something could have been. But it is not akin to the resolution, so I pass it by.
Exploitation oj Labour

But the comment I want to make is this: Has the resolution any place in this parliament, and if so, does it become the government to pass its blessing upon it? I do not say that we have nothing at all to do with the question as to the fairness of wages. We have a little. We have to do with it only in so far as we employ the workers ourselves, in so far as we, the government, or we the parliament, in the case of our employees throughout the country can, directly or indirectly, influence contractors entering into engagements with us. To that extent we must take into consideration this principle regarding fairness to the wage earner. But the hon. member admits we have done that, and the whole House admits we have done it. Consequently there is no cause for castigation, there is no cause for any didactic resolutions or lectures; we are living up to the spirit of the law which the hon. member himself conceives to be right. So there is no reason for a resolution on that score. That is all we have to do with it. Over and beyond that, it is a matter for the provincial legislatures only. It is only within their jurisdiction. That is not a matter of dispute, for we all know it. Does it become this parliament to pass resolutions dictating to the provincial legislatures what kind of legislation they shall pass? Does the hon. member really think so? I do not think it does. The constitution of this country gives plenary powers to both sets of legislatures. The provinces are just as original in their jurisdiction as are we. Their powers are just as ample and just as plenary. We do not give them their powers; we cannot subtract from them. They are supreme in their own field just as we are supreme in ours. Have we no better task than to be entering upon their sphere of consideration, lending them a little of our wisdom and advising them what they ought to do? Is it dignified conduct? Does it become and befit the parliament of Canada? I suppose we could plead that they have offended in the same way-I know it was a very common practice of the legislatures of the prairie provinces to pass resolutions on the tariff, telling us what they wanted and what we ought to do here in the way of low tariff and no tariff. Hon. members were a whole lot freer in expressing themselves and putting themselves on record out there than they are when they get to the parliament of Canada. But they never achieved anything by it except perhaps a little local popularity. They were engaged in an exercise which could not be said to be worthy of a member of a local legislative assembly.


Alan Webster Neill: Do these resolutions passed by the local legislatures not influence public
tMr. Meighen.]
sentiment, not only among the people of Canada as a whole, but also in this parliament and government?


Arthur Meighen: I am quite free to say they do not influence any public sentiment that I notice, and I do not think they were ever intended to influence public sentiment- never for a moment. The public sentiment they felt was there and they catered to it. The resolutions were passed for the purpose of adding an increment to the popularity of the members voting for them, and if possible making difficult the course of those in this parliament who felt it their duty to vote otherwise. In a word their purpose was mischievous and nothing but mischievous. Nor were the legislatures of the west alone in this respect. There have been others in our country who have spent their time saying, in the quiet and safety of their own small realm, what ought to be done here, where there was virtually no opposition, where it was an easy task. It has been done in British Columbia. It has been done I think, even in Ontario, but I never knew any object served that was worthy the attention of a member of the House or worthy of his objection, and I do not like to see this parliament launching upon the consideration of that mischievous procedure. I think we would do well to frown upon that resolution with which we have nothing to do ourselves. We would do well to confine ourselves within the ambit of our own jurisdiction. We have enough to attend to here. The legislatures of the provinces can attend to their duties far better without recommendations from us as to how they should attend to them.
I was most interested in the question put by the hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson). He asked the Prime Minister if he knew of any place where the situation sought to be redressed by this amendment really existed; where there was, for example, exploitation of labour; where there was noi freedom of contract. And what was the answer? The Prime Minister said: "No, we have lived up to these things in Canada and this is merely to confirm what we have done." In a word, things are all right in this country, and let us by the resolution pass our blessing upon the people of Canada for having done what is right in a sphere in which we have nothing to do. Por my part I have no exception at all to take to the resolution itself, but I do not think it is necessary, so far as I know, conditions do not call for it. But above and beyond that, I am opposed to the practice, and do not want to encourage it and cannot support it-the government can do

Exploitation oj Labour
much to stop it, but I cannot-of having this House, merely for the sake of some individual advantage, perhaps, to a member, go into a sphere to which we do not belong and seek to perform duties which the constitution has assigned to others.


Alan Webster Neill: I have much pleasure in accepting the recommendation-


Hewitt Bostock: If the hon. member replies now, the debate will be closed.


Mr. J. K. FLEMMING (Victoria-Oarleton):: 
Mr. H. C. HOCKEN (Toronto West Centre):: My objection to this resolution is
its absolute futility. It does not mean anything at all.


James Alexander Robb: The same as the resolution we had this afternoon.


Robert James Manion: It was not futile.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: I was discussing this
resolution which reads:
That no person should be induced or compelled by undue influence, threats of dismissal, loss of wages or position or by any other unfair and improper means, to work for wages less than the standard.
I presume my hon. friend means union wages. What is the standard wage?


Alan Webster Neill: The standard wage current for that class of work in that district.


Horatio Clarence Hocken: There may be several standard wage scales in the district. I am one of those who believe in paying union wages. I think the workmen of this country are well able to take care of themselves in that respect, but this resolution would say to a man who is not competent: You cannot lose your job; you must be paid the standard wage paid for competent workmen even though you are incompetent. That is entirely within the terms of this resolution and it is an absolute absurdity. No man will do that; no union insists upon that. This to my mind is simply a piece of flim-flam, probably for the constituents of my hon. friend. If he wants to do something for labour surely he can find some better means than the placing of a futile resolution of this character on the order paper. Neither this nor any
Exploitation of Labour

other parliament can force the carrying out of such a resolution. If a man does not want to employ one who he thinks is not competent, he does not employ him and there is no power in this parliament to compel him to employ him. It would be absurd if parliament should have such a power. While I am in sympathy with paying reasonable wages to men who work, and with preventing anything in the shape of coercion upon them, as one who appreciates the principles of trade unionism, I could not support a resolution like this.


Alan Webster Neill: Mr. Speaker, I have pleasure in accepting the suggestion of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and with the consent of my seconder, I would delete the two words "or conscription" in the fourth line. That I think will meet all the major objections which have been raised against this resolution.
As regards the remarks of the leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen), his legal mind immediately flies to the legal aspect of the matter. I am sorry he did not see something a little beyond that, and I am particularly sorry he ended his remarks with the suggestion that it would possibly enure to the individual advantage of some member. I do not think that suggestion is worthy of him or worthy of myself. I should like to see him rise to a height above the legal point of view-I am quite aware that this House at this present moment cannot legislate in this matter over the provinces; but there is such a thing, despise it as we may or ignore it as we like, as public sentiment, and when this House of parliament, which is the highest court of appeal, so to speak, in Canada, expresses itself such and so, it is liable to have a considerable effect on the legislatures and lion, members composing the governments of the different provinces. Public sentiment is an intangible invisible thing, but it is a very vital thing in many respects, and I was asking from the moral point of view only the support, the endorsation, of this House, expressing its opinion that such a thing is not desirable-that and no more.
The leader of the opposition cited a case of provinces passing what I suppose he might call political resolutions in order to give themselves credit in the province, or perhaps to embarrass the government at Ottawa that happened to be of an opposite political complexion. But it is on record that British Columbia, the province with which I am most familiar, has passed resolutions notably on the Asiatic question, urging this government,

which was of the same political colour as itself, to take steps towards restriction regardless of whether such action would embarrass the government at Ottawa or not. Having been challenged ito cite a case of its ever having been effected, I would like to cite that same case of Chinese exclusion. Beginning with the Chinese and going on with the Japanese, British Columbia has been fighting for twenty years passing resolutions regardless olf whether they embarrassed its friends here or not. It was rightly considered that when those provincial members unanimously passed a resolution of that character, they represented the concrete consensus of public sentiment in British Columbia, and it was so regarded here. In course of time this led to a poll tax of one hundred dollars being imposed by Sir Wilfrid Laurier. Sentiment Still continued to be expressed that that was not sufficient or effective, and this led to a poll tax of five hundred dollars being imposed. Time went on and these representations continued to be poured in. It did not matter whether it was the parish council or the city council or the legislature; they were the units and they sent resolutions to Ottawa in order to focus the attention of politicians here on what was needed in British Columbia. This led to the "gentleman's agreement."


Arthur Meighen: Does the hon. member
not see a very great distinction between the representation of a local viewpoint on a matter within our jurisdiction, and the passing of a resolution on a general principle, on a matter wholly, within the juridiction of others?


Alan Webster Neill: The point is well taken, but
it is taken as against my right hon. friend^ because it was he who introduced the illustration of legislatures passing resolutions.


Arthur Meighen: On the tariff. That is
wholly different from passing a resolution on a local condition such as Chinese immigration.


Alan Webster Neill: Is the tariff not a local condition?	*


Arthur Meighen: Not at all-Dominion.


Alan Webster Neill: A tariff often is an extremely local condition in some respects. As regards the other members who spoke, most of them, so far as I could make out, came from the city of Toronto, and most of them appeared to be hampered by the fact that they had not heard my opening remarks, because nearly every one of them challenged me to cite a case where such a condition existed. I did cite such a case. It is the law of British Columbia that a man can be conscripted to

Marking of Eggs
go out and fight fires at twenty-five cents an hour, or any less wage they like to give. It is that feature of the matter to which I object. An hon. member referred to the particular cage of a man being called out to fight fires for the sake of saving life, and haggling about the pay before he would start. The hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson) need not worry about conditions like that. Canadians do not do those things; when the case is one of saving life, they will not haggle, they will go out even if they have to work for nothing. This is not a case like that; it is a case, as one hon. member opposite said, of saving thousands or millions of dollars worth of property by prompt action. If it is going to save some lumber companies millions of dollars in timber, surely they can afford to pay the standard wage to those doing it. But that is a very different thing from the question of human life being endangered. The hon. member for East Algoma (Mr. Nicholson) said there was nothing like conscription in Ontario. He went on to say that there was conscription, but that the conscripts were paid what they were worth. Is there not such a thing as conscription in the sweatshops of Toronto? I think the hon. member will find there is a worse kind of conscription, economic conscription, there. He says that in fighting fires men can be compelled to go, but they must be paid what they are worth. More power to him and more power to Ontario; I only want the hon. member to say that Ontario is right and British Columbia is wrong. Let us say, academic though it may be, that it is not right to do so and so, that something else should be done. One of the hon. members for Toronto challenged the Premier to say whether or not he would bring in a bill if this resolution passed. We all know that that cannot be done, but let us try moral suasion, and if that fails perhaps by cooperation with the provinces, when they have been educated to it, it will be possible to bring in a bill of that kind. I ask the House to remember that it is not altogether this particular thing which we must face, but what it may lead up to, and I particularly suggest that the Labour members should consider that. If it is right and legal to force a man to put out a bush fire which is not within fifty miles of a town and which is not endangering the life of anyone except himself, then when we need anything else people may be forced to supply the labour at a wage which the government will establish. There is a danger there, and it is that danger against which I want to' guard. One hon. member opposite said in his second sentence that he thought the resolution was all wrong, and in his first sentence he explained
why he thought it was all wrong, when he said he had not read it. Perhaps if he will read it with a little care he will not have the same contempt for it. Perhaps his mind is not able to readily assimilate a resolution of this kind without some study. The hon. member also wanted to know who had drawn it up. If he wishes the services of the gentleman who did it, I will be happy to furnish him with the name privately. With the consent of my seconder, I agree that the two words "or conscription" be deleted from the resolution.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.



MARKING OF EGGS


Alan Webster Neill: That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the Eggs Marks Act of British Columbia should be made applicable to the Dominion of Canada as a whole.
He said: Mr. Speaker, I am sure this resolution is in every respect the antithesis of the one we have just considered. It is short; it is simple; it is within our jurisdiction, and I think it will be acceptable to ever}rone. I might briefly explain how the need arises. There has been a continual feeling in British Columbia and no doubt in Ontario as well that the poultry farmers are not getting a square deal, owing to the importation] of American eggs. That leads one to the suggestion that there should be an increased duty on American eggs. As that is not the basis of this resolution, I am just alluding to it in passing.
Some months ago there was a meeting held at a place called Duncan in the riding of the hon. member for Nanaimo (Mr. Dickie), which was attended by representatives of practically all the poultrymen of British Columbia. I may explain that the poultry industry in British Columbia is entirely different to that of any other province, inasmuch as it is a specialized business. There it is not a .case of having a few hens running around the farm machinery, nor is it a case where you can say to a man, "Eggs are not selling well; you had better go in for cows." You cannot do that when you have only five acres of land absolutely unsuited for anything else. Consequently they go in for specialized hen farms, with five or ten acres of land on which they keep from two to five thousand hens. It is useless to say to them that they should grow cucumbers or raise pigs, because the land is unsuited to that. At this meeting a number of resolutions were passed1; one asked for an increased duty on eggs coming from the United
Marking oj Eggs

States; another asked that there 'be no material change in, the egg grading regulations; a third resolution dealt with Australian eggs, and1 asked that they be not allowed to come in under the definition of "fresh", while the last, resolution was that which I just read. They asked that the Eggs Marks Act of British Columbia be made applicable to the Dominion as a, whole.
I may explain briefly what the act is. It was passed in 1923, and I need not quote it; in effect it states that every imported egg sold in British Columbia or offered for sale Shall have the country of origin stamped on each individual egg. That is, there must be a stamp stating that it comes from the country of origin. An egg from the United States would1 be marked "U.S."; an egg from China would be marked "China". That act was introduced three years ago, and I am advised that it has been exceedingly successful.


Donald Sutherland: Might I ask my hon. friend if that applies to all countries, or only to China?


Alan Webster Neill: The section is as follows:
Every egg dealer who keeps or has in his possession or under his control any eggs which have been imported into the Dominion, and which have not been marked, shall mark each egg with the words "Produce of", followed by the name of the country of origin of the egg.
It applies to every country outside of Canada. The result is, as I am advised by this association, that it has 'been of great assistance in preventing the importation of foreign eggs. Further, I am advised by the association as follows:
It is a well known fact in the business that the consumer is suspicious of a marked egg. About fifteen years ago this association placed its eggs on the market with a special stamp giving the name of the association and the producer's number, but it was found that occasionally a retail grocer would carry eggs in stock thus marked for some wreeks and some consumer would purchase a dozen of these stale eggs and forever forswear anything with the Cowichan Creamery stamp on it. We know of one firm of distributors in Vancouver that made an attempt to bring marked eggs before the public, and for the same reason gave up in disgust.
The idea, of course, is that a man might import perfectly fresh eggs from the United States ; he might put them at the back of the bin and put eggs received later in front, and in that way the eggs first received might become more or less stale. Then when a consumer buys an egg marked " U.S. " or whatever it might be and does not like it. he tells his wife not to buy any more of that kind. Then there is another idea, that when an egg is marked as being from a foreign country, the suggestion is that it might possibly not

be fresh, coming from that distance. People do not stop to consider whether "US." means the state of Washington or the state of California. Also, it is possible that some vague spirit of patriotism stirs the man at his breakfast and he says to his wife, " Get local eggs if you can; I see these are imported."
Ml-. EDWARDS (Frontenac): Is the marking to be done by the dealer?	[DOT]


Alan Webster Neill: He can buy them marked
if he likes, or he can mark them, but he must not expose them for sale unmarked.


John Wesley Edwards: If they
come in from the 'United States they are unmarked.


Alan Webster Neill: They might or might not bo marked.


John Wesley Edwards: There is no law in the United States compelling the marking of eggs, so I presume they would come in from there unmarked.


Alan Webster Neill: Possibly.


John Wesley Edwards: Then it
would be up to the dealer in British Columbia to mark those eggs before selling them?


Alan Webster Neill: Or else he would have to
stipulate with the man from whom he was buying the eggs to mark them. But that phase need not worry the hon. gentleman, because that is an inexpensive operation.


Robert Forke: Suppose the eggs come in unmarked, and they are exposed for sale, who is to tell that they are not local eggs?


Alan Webster Neill: If the person offering them for sale fails to mark them he becomes subject to a fine.


Robert Forke: How do you find it out?


Alan Webster Neill: The eggs are checked at the port of entry. There is no trouble about that. Perhaps my hon. friend thought it was going to increase the cost to the consumer, but this cost would be negligible.


John Wesley Edwards: No. I appreciated the difficulty which I think occurred to the mind of the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Forke).


Alan Webster Neill: I will deal with that again later. Discussing for the moment the cost of marking these eggs, this association says that to mark eggs arriving in this country in accordance with the act would not cost more than one cent a dozen. So the cost to the

Marking oj Eggs
consumer would be negligible. The association adds:
Since the act went into force in British Columbia, eggs imported from Washington are seldom sold in British Columbia, being generally bought for re-shipment elsewhere.
They do not appear to have found any trouble in British Columbia. There is a penalty provided in the act for anyone who exposes eggs for sale that are not so marked:
Anyone who violates any of the provisions of this act is liable to a fine not exceeding $100.
This is something practical; it, has been in existence in British Columbia for three years and has been a pronounced success. There are no complaints from the consumer. The legislation has not raised the cost of eggs to him, but it has raised their quality, and he likes it. He buys more eggs now, the consumption in British Columbia having gone up considerably. It does not hurt the dealer, for he passes on the cost-and it is trifling. But it helps the producer because it tends to keep out foreign eggs. My hon. friends opposite, who are such enthusiastic exponents of protection, will kindly take notice that this is a form of protection without increasing the cost to the consumer of the commodity protected. and yet it is claimed that such legislation will materially benefit the producer for it gives his eggs a preference over the American. Their surplus is largely shipped over here, and our producers have to meet that competition.
If any further explanation is desired I shall be happy to furnish it when I close the debate. This is fundamental: The policy has been a success in British Columbia; it is not going to cost anybody anything; and it will help the struggling poultry interest not only in that province but here as well.


John Wesley Edwards: Have there been any convictions in British Columbia for infractions of the law?


Alan Webster Neill: I do not know, but they say it has been successfully enforced.


William Richard Motherwell: Mr. Speaker, so far as the Eggs Marks Act of British Columbia may come under federal jurisdiction, I think there is no objection to the resolution. For the last eight or ten years every egg-exporting country has been making commendable efforts to improve the quality of its product. In Canada the first effort I recall was during the war-I think part of the time under the old Canada Food Board-with good results; but that applied only I think to export eggs. This resolution is restricted to imported eggs, and the main purpose is that of identifying the country of
origin, so that the source of all imported eggs will be known, this information appearing on the egg itself, on the container, and on a placard to be displayed where the eggs are retailed. Having regard, however, to the fact that some of the regulations we introduced three years ago are not yet sufficiently known to warrant any change-it is generally accepted that any regulation should be in force for two or three years at least to give it a fair trial- it is not the intention of the government to make any changes in those regulations until another year has elapsed.
With that understanding, and with the further understanding that we would not incorporate any provincial law inconsistent with federal jurisdiction, there can be no objection to this resolution going through.


Donald Sutherland: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to hear the minister say there is no objection to the resolution passing, but I should like to call the attention of the House to the resolution itself :
That, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the Eggs Marks Act of British Columbia should be made applicable to the Dominion of Canada as a whole.
Now, I have a copy of the British Columbia act respecting the marking of eggs, passed by the legislature of that province on December 21, 1923, and I find it applies practically solely to eggs imported from China. I do not think it applies to eggs imported from the United States, Australia or New Zealand.


Alan Webster Neill: Will the hon. member allow me to direct his attention to section 3 of the act? It is quite plain that this meets his objection. I have already read it.
Mr.	SUTHERLAND	(South	Oxford):
Section 5 of the act pays particular attention to eggs imported from China.


Alan Webster Neill: I am talking about section 3.
Mr.	SUTHERLAND	(South Oxford):
Section 5, subsection 1, providles:
Every person (being the proprietor of any manufactory, bakery, confectionery, hotel, restaurant, cafe, tea room, or any place or shop where any Chinese eggs are exposed or offered for sale, or used in the preparation of any goods, wares or merchandise, or used in the preparation of any food exposed or offered for sale or served for meals, shall place a legible sign in some conspicuous place where all persons entering his place of business can readily see the same, upon which is marked in letters not less ,than four niches high the words, "Chinese eggs used here" or, "Chinese eggs sold here", as the case may be.
Now, there is no reference there to the importation of egg's from the United States or from Hong Kong. A great many more

Marking oj Eggs

eggs arrive here from Hong Kong than from China, and I do not know that there is any great difference between the eggs coming from those two sources.


Alan Webster Neill: Will the hon. member allow me to explain? I do not think he caught my remarks. If he looks at section 3 of the act which he has in his hand he will find that the importation of eggs from any place outside Canada is fully covered. Section 5 deals only with Chinese eggs.


Donald Sutherland: I
was directing attention to something that my hon. friend neglected to point out to the House when he was dealing with the resolution, that is, the particular pains taken to make it appear that eggs from China are being used in the restaurants of this country, and that no such pains are taken with respect to eggs from Hong Kong. Now, a great many more eggs arrive from Hong Kong than from China. I fail to see why a distinction should be made between eggs from those two sources. I might refer to subsection of section 5 of the British Columbia act. Apparently in British Columbia there is a very strong feeling against anything imported from China. If my hon. friend is so anxious to nrevent unfair competition from other countries, I think he should be equally eager to see that the poultry raisers of British Columbia are protected from that great country to the south just as much as from Hong Kong, China, and any other country.
I have here figures of the importation of eggs from the United States, and they show that during the three weeks of February some 820,000 dozen eggs were imported into Canada from the United States. The British Columbia Act provides against the importation of eggs only from China; why single out China? Section 5 of the British Columbia Act mentions nothing except the importation of eggs from China. It is true, as my hon. friend has pointed out, that under section 3 of that act the eggs have to be marked. In restaurants where eggs are used in the making of pastries and other things of that kind a card has to be exhibited showing that the eggs used are from China, if that is where they are from. Why not exercise equal vigilance with regard to eggs from the United States or any other country? If our eggs in Canada are so superior-and in the view of the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) they must be, because he has passed regulation after regulation until the people engaged in the raising of poultry in this country are completely paralysed; I venture to say there is not one man in fifty, no, not one
[Mr. D. Sutherland.!
in a hundred or nine hundred of those engaged in poultry raising who understands the regulations of the Department of Agriculture to-day-if, I say, our eggs are so superior, why not take the same precautions against the eggs from other countries that you take against the eggs imported from China?
And now to make the situation still more complicated the hon. member asks to have the act of British Columbia made applicable to the eggs which are imported into this country. If he would exercise the same precautions with regard to eggs from all countries as he does with regard to eggs from China, I would be heartily in accord with him. I think it is absolutely necessary that we should know where the eggs come from. The Minister of Agriculture this afternoon, when the hon. member for East Lambton (Mr. Armstrong) called his attention to the importations of dairy products into this country, could not answer at the moment, but wanted time to consider and find out whether the products of other countries were being sold in this country as Canadian products. I think the minister must be aware of the facts in view of the representations which have been made to his department. I think he must also be aware that grave complaints have been made with regard to the importation of eggs. I do not see why China should be singled out and the eggs from other countries, the United States, Australia and the rest of the world, be allowed to escape.


William Richard Motherwell: Section 3 of the ac: makes it quite plain.


Donald Sutherland: It is section 5 that I refer to. Section 3 is not applicable in this respect at all. Section 5 is the one that makes it necessary to put up cards in the restaurants if the eggs used there come from China.


John Wesley Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I have only a word to
say. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) said he thought the principal feature of this resolution was that it compelled those handling eggs from foreign countries to have them marked with the country of origin. I do not think that is the main feature of it at all. The main feature of this resolution, it strikes me, and as the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) very frankly admitted towards the close of his remarks, is its protective feature. It is an attempt on the part of a so-called free trader to practise protection and get around his free trade scruples. I assume, and I think I have a right to assume, that if the province of British

Marking o] Eggs
Columbia could have passed an act requiring China, the United States, Australia or any other country to mark the eggs they were sending into British Columbia with the country of origin, the province of British Columbia would have taken that means of protecting itself, but it was not within the jurisdiction of the province to pass such an act. It is within the jurisdiction of this House to pass such an act, and I can only conclude from the remarks of the Minister of Agriculture in accepting this resolution that it is the intention of the government, if the House approves this resolution, to pass a federal act which will compel the United States, New Zealand, Australia, China and all other countries sending eggs to Canada to stamp them before they will be allowed entry into this country.


Alan Webster Neill: How does the hon. member
propose to compel a citizen of the United States to do anything at all?


John Wesley Edwards: I do not
know exactly how you will do it, nor do I know just how you are going to enforce this idea either. It is, however, possible to require goods coming into a country to be marked with the country of origin. Legislation along that line, I believe, exists in different countries; goods must be marked "Made in Germany," "Made in France," and so on; that is being enforced in various countries at the present time. If you apply this to eggs, why not apply it to other things? If this is a legitimate and proper way of protecting the poultry men of British Columbia in the production of eggs, why not apply the same principle to the sheep raisers of Alberta and protect them by specifying that all mutton and lamb imported into this country from New Zealand and Australia ^hall be stamped as coming from, those countries before it is allowed to be put on the market here? Why single out eggs more than anything else?


Alan Webster Neill: One thing at a time.


John Wesley Edwards: I assume
from that remark that my hon. friend would not very seriously object to applying the principle further; that if he succeeded in having it applied to eggs, he would not object to applying it to mutton, butter or anything else. But I doubt very much the practicability of anything of the kind. The practical way to deal with this matter, I venture to submit to the hon. member for Comox-Albemi-and I hope I shall not shock too severely his free trade tendencies-the reasonable course is to impose a duty on eggs coming into this count-try from the United States, Australia or any
14011-108J
other country, in order to give the poultry men of this country the protection to which they are entitled. If you do that, you will not have to adopt the roundabout way my hon. friend has suggested to protect the poultry men of the province from which he comes.


Mr. DAVID SPENCE (Parkdale):: I
would like to know if the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) understands what the hon. member for Comox-Albemi (Mr. Neill) means. We all know that the container in which the eggs come is marked with the country of origin, but I think he now wishes each individual egg to be marked. How far are you going to go? What are we coming to? What is going to happen to the business men of this country anyhow?


William Richard Motherwell: This applies only
to imported eggs.


David Spence: That is what
the resolution means, that each egg should be stamped. Do you not think you have given the business men of this country enough work to do already, keeping track of all the regulations and restrictions you have passed? The only thing they have left to do now is to pay the taxes you impose upon them; they have no other privilege in the world People in business in this country today are so sick and sore and tired they wish they were out of it. I never heard such nonsensical twaddle as this in my Life. Hon. members get up here and advocate the most extraordinary things; I never heard the like of them. I only wish the hon. member for Comox-Alberni would get the House to a state where it would clearly understand what the Minister of Agriculture and this government has put the country up against. It is the most difficult thing in the world to comply with all the laws they are responsible for enacting. No matter how desirous you may be of observing those laws you cannot comply with them. Too many restrictions are being imposed on the business world, so much so that the business world is getting sick and tired of the whole thing, and the responsibility rests with the government. We had difficulties when the Conservative party was in power, but under this government they have been increased ten-fold. If the government keeps going on in this way, people will quit business entirely and the business will have to be done in some other way.


Mr. W. F. GARLAND (Carleton):: I really believe the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Neill) is trying to benefit the poultry industry of Canada, but if this resolution is carried out that industry will be harmed in-
Marking of Eggs

stead of benefited. I agree with the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) that there are already too many regulations in force with regard to the grading of eggs. Under the existing regulations eggs when they enter Canada, whether from China or other countries, are examined as they come through the customs. Not only are they graded, but the quality is marked on the cases, not on the eggs. I believe that is a sufficient safeguard if the idea is to protect our poultry industry.
As the hon. member for South Oxford says, if the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Motherwell) would adopt some procedure whereby the householders would know what kind of eggs they were buying, it would be a step in the right direction. As matters are at present the householder may think he is buying a first grade egg when as a matter of fact it is an egg of the third grade and is not to be compared in quality with the egg it is supposed to represent. The present trouble is caused by too many regulations and too many grades. As to the requiring the dealer to stamp the eggs, I really believe he has so much to do at present that such a thing is out of the question. In the case of eggs coming from China or the United States they at least should be stamped by the producer in the country from which they come. If that were done the consumer would know when he was eating a Chinese egg, but the stamping should be done by the man in China.
The producers in Canada are not worrying about the competition caused by eggs from China. Those eggs cannot come through the customs as first grade eggs because they are too old to meet the requirements of that grade; therefore Chinese eggs must be classed as thirds. If people want to buy such eggs they should do so after the grade of third had been stamped on them and also the country of origin. That would remove a lot of the difficulty complained of. If the hon. member for ComoxnAlberni would exclude these inferior eggs from Canada altogether, or impose a sufficiently high duty, it would be a benefit to the Canadian poultry industry. The reason those engaged in that industry cannot make both ends meet is because of the unfair competition to which they are exposed, and the present multiplicity of grades. The grades should be properly arranged and simplified so that people will know what kind they are buying. A Canadian egg of the first quality will offer convincing proof of its merits.
Mr. HARRY J. BARBER (Fraser Valley): Let me say in the first place that I am in sympathy with the resolution. During a

previous debate I brought this matter to the attention of the House and in view of the fact that I come from British Columbia and have seen the working out of the act in that province, I feel that I can justly support the resolution. I do not think we need worry about the marking of the individual egg. I know one firm in the city of Seattle who claim that they have no objection to the marking of individual eggs for export into Canada, and the cost would not be over one-half cent per dozen. Therefore I think there is no need for concern over the question of the stamping of the individual egg. We have found in British Columbia that we have little or no trouble. There eggs when put on sale must be marked with the country of origin, so that when the customer comes to buy eggs he or she knows that they are from the United States, or from China, or whatever the country of exportation may be. That system has worked out well in my own province.
I returned from British Columbia this morning, and let me assure my hon. friend (Mr. Neill) that he is not going to solve all the problems of the poultryman through the instrumentality of his resolution. During my recent visit to British Columbia I travelled through some of the outlying districts, and they were bringing eggs in and selling them at the low rate of fifteen and twenty cents a dozen, and at the same time paying a big price for feed. In addition to the marking of eggs I think it is absolutely necessary that there should be an increase of duty. I believe the hon. .member said some time ago that he was quite favourable to bringing the Canadian tariff on eggs to a parity with that of the United States provided that it did not 'interfere with the policy of the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King). There is no doubt at all that the question of an increase of duty must be dealt with. An agitation in its favour is springing up throughout British Columbia. Deputations waited on me urging that course while I was there, and I have had communications

I think my hon. friend has also received some-in which the raising of the tariff is urged. In addition, the adoption of the eggmarking act of British Columbia was advocated. There is no doubt whatever that the existing situation in regard to eggs must be met, and it must be met by an adequate increase in the tariff. We have got to accord some protection to the poultryman. I am going to support the resolution, but I hope . before the session closes the government will grant some further protection to the poultry industry by making our tariff equal to that of the United States.

Marking oj Eggs


James Alexander Robb: I did not like to interrupt Iny hon. friend during his remarks, but I should like to ask this question just for information: My hon. friend said that he had observed while in his constituency that eggs were coming in and selling at fifteen cents a dozen. Could he say from what country those eggs came?


Mr. BARBER:: They were local eggs. I
was talking to one lady who was lamenting that all she could get that particular day was fifteen cents a dozen whereas -the week before she received twenty cents. Owing to the lack of protection and to the high cost of feed it is impossible to carry on the poultry business there with success. In fact people are disposing of their flo-cks in that particular district at the present time.


Hewitt Bostock: Shall the resolution be
adopted? Carried.


Alan Webster Neill: I want to -make only a few remarks.


Some hon. MEMBERS:: Order.


Alan Webster Neill: If I am not interrupted I
will only be a few minutes, -but if interrupted I will be a few hours. I am glad -indeed to find myself in sympathy with and voting on the same line as the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) for once. I understood him to say-


John Wesley Edwards: I rise to a point of order.


Hewitt Bostock: What is the point of
order?


John Wesley Edwards: The point of order is this: The hon. gentleman has already discussed the resolution which he moved and which you, Mr. Speaker, declared carried. 1 should like to know what is before the House.


Hewitt Bostock: It is true that I declared the resolution carried-


Alan Webster Neill: But, Mr. Speaker, I was
already on my feet.


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. member was
on his feet a-t the moment I said carried. I will give the hon. member the benefit of the doubt, as I am sure he is not obstructing himself.


Alan Webster Neill: I think in any case I have
a right of reply. The remarks of the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) were purely of a detailed character, and, I do not think we should take much time in discussing that -phase of it.
With -regard to the criticism of the hon. member for Frontenac-Addington (Mr. EdWards), I -think it is quite immaterial whether the egg is marked in Seattle or in Vancouver. The point is that we can compel the man in Canada to have them marked before he sells them. We naturally would compel the man over whom we have control. I can assure the ho-n. member there -will be no trouble and he need not worry. But the hon. member came -back, as hon. members on that side of the House do, to the matter of protection. He said that to put an increased protection on eggs would be sufficient. I say to him, I would also put protection on American eggs. But that should be only supplementary to this legislation, for this reason: that increased duty means increased expense, whereas the resolution I have suggested would -mean no increased expense -to the consumer, and in these days we are supposed to cut down the high cost of living.
The hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Barber) goes one better than I do and says they can be marked for half a cent a dozen, so that will not increase the cost to the consumer. I am quite willing to vote for a higher duty on eggs coming in from -the United States. But the hon. gentleman could not resist the temptation-it is ingrained in him-for -political effect to twist my remark. He says I stated, "I am willing to vote for the increased duty on eggs coming from the United States, provided that -it does not interfere with the Prime Minister." I will subscribe any sum of money to a local charity if my hon. friend will find any such words of mine in Hansard.


Harry James Barber: I think the statement was that if it was not in the form of a confidence motion, which would imply that if it did not interfere with the government he would vote for it.
Mr. NEILL. He deliberately twisted my language. I said I would vote for ft if it were not attached to a straight vote of confidence or combined with a motion in regard to higher protection on other goods in such a way as to make it entirely nugatory.
I will pass over the remarks of the hon. member for Pa-rkdale (Mr. Spence). He says it was all nonsense. My resolution has been vindicated by the hon. member for Fraser Valley. I am pleased to see the stand he took.	.
One other point as regards the question that it would be far better to put on protection.

Electoral District oj Athabaska
Here is the language the Oowiehan Creamery Association used:
The board of directors and management of this association are of the opinion, and (Very strongly of the opinion at that, that the Eggs Marks Act is a mudh better form of protection than 5 cent extra duty, at the same time we believe that if the act was a federal measure instead of a .provincial one, it would have a better chance.
And so on.
The hon. member for Frontenac-Addington accused me of being a near free trader or a has-been free trader. As soon as you propose to go half way to meet hon. gentlemen opposite, they are never satisfied. Here is a measure of protection. I am not ashamed to say that I favour it as protection, but they are not satisfied. It does not go far enough for them. But only two members on the other side have the courage of their convictions and sav, "Here is protection; we will support it."
I hope the House will unite in passing the resolution.


Hewitt Bostock: Carried.


Donald Sutherland: The debate is closed on this motion, is it?


Hewitt Bostock: The debate is closed.
When the mover of a resolution has first expressed his views and other members have taken part in the debate, and the time comes for the mover to reply, his reply closes the debate, according to the rules of the House.


James Alexander Robb: Before adjournment I desire
to repair something of the damage which hon. gentlemen opposite innocently, or I am sure not with intention, caused just prior to six o'clock when you yourself, Mr. Speaker, left for home and many hon. gentlemen had left to go to dinner. I move-


Arthur Meighen: I rise to a point of order.


James Alexander Robb: I move that this House will on Friday March 19th instant resolve itself into committee to consider of supply to be granted His Majesty.


Arthur Meighen: I rose to a point of
order.


James Alexander Robb: I had the floor.


Arthur Meighen: I think I had the right to rise to a point of order even if the hon. minister was on his feet. I do not know under what rule the minister rises to make a motion at this stage. The rules of the House plainly read that the proceedings of the House must be taken in accordance with the order paper. We are eertainly not proceeding in accordance with it now.


James Alexander Robb: This resolution before the
House had just been passed, and I rose to make the motion-


Hewitt Bostock: I think the point is well
taken; the orders of the day must be exhausted before this motion could be taken up.	[DOT]


[Stage Direction]
Motion agreed to.


Donald MacBeth Kennedy: That the following address be presented to His Excellency the Governor General:
To General, His Excellency, the Right Honourable Julian Hedworth George, Baron Byng of Vimy, General on the Retired List on the Reserve of Officers of the Army, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of 'the Batlh, Knight Grand. Cross of the Moat Distinguished Order of Saint Miohael and Saint George, Member of the Royal Victorian Order, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of the Dominion of Canada;
May it ipiease Your Excellency:
We, His Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects of the House of Commons in Parliament assembled beg leave to represent to Your Excellency:
1.	That a petition has been, within the time specified in 'the Corrupt Practices Inquiries Act, being chapter 8 of the Revised Statutes of Canada (1906) as amended, presented to the House of Commons signed by mors than twenty-five electors of the electoral district of Athabaska, stating that no petition charging the existence of corrupt practices has been presented under the Dominion Controverted Elections Act, and that corrupt or illegal practices have, or that there is reason to believe that corrupt or illegal practices have extensively prevailed at the election holden 'in the said electoral district of Athabaska aforesaid on the 29th day of October, 1925.
2.	That the said petition was presented to the House of Gommoms on the 29th day of January, 1926, and on the 1st day of February, 1926, wa3 laid upon the table of the said House of .Commons with the Report of the Clerk of Petitions skating that he had examined the petition of the more than twenty-five electors of the electoral district of Athabaska aforesaid, and that all the requirements of the Corrupt Practices Inquiries Aot (R.S.C. ohapter 8) in respect of such petition had been complied with (No. 17 Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons of Canada, Monday, 1st February, 1926).
Wherefore we, His Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects of the House of Commons aforesaid in Parliament assembled Humbly Pray Your Excellency:
To cause inquiry to be made under the Corrupt Practices Inquiries Act aforesaid, as amended, by one or more of the following Honourable Judges of the Supreme Court of Alberta-The Honourable Horace Harvey, Chief Justice of Alberta; the Honourable William Charles Simmons, Chief Justice of the Trial Division of the said Court; the Honourable Charles Allen Stua-rt; the Honourable Nicholas Daminac Beck; the Honourable James Duncan Hyndman; the Honourable Alfred Henry Clark: the Honourable William Legh Walsh; the Honourable Maitland Stewart McCarthy; the Honourable William Carlos Ives; the Honourable Thomas Mitchell Morel Tweedle, and the Honourable John Robert Boyle. Competent under the Dominion Controverted Elections Act as amended to

Business oj the House
try an election petition in the (Province of Alberta, within which the electoral district of Athabaska is situated.	i
He said: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to take up any time in discussing this motion. I rise merely for the purpose of moving it. The motion has been on the order paper for six weeks, and covers practically all the arguments that I would care to make on the question this evening. The Corrupt Practices Inquiries Act, chapter 8 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, as amended, provides for an inquiry into alleged corrupt and illegal practices under certain conditions. More than twenty-five electors of the federal electoral district of Athabasca have petitioned this House praying for an inquiry under the terms of the statute. The petition was accepted by this House on the 1st February and I move this motion at this stage simply in order to give effect to the prayer of that petition.


Hon. R. B. BENNETT (West Calgary):: Inasmuch as the Hon. Mr. Justice Stuart has died since this resolution was placed upon the order paper, it seems to me that the name of his successor, the Honourable Charles Richmond Mitchell, should be substituted for that of the Honourable Charles Allen Stuart. I woidd also point out that the name of Mr. Tweedie is incorrectly spelled; it should be the Hon. Thomas Mitchell March Tweedie instead of the Hon. Thomas Mitchell Morel Tweedie.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.



ADJOURNMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

[Stage Direction]
Mr. MACKENZIE KING moved the adjournment of the House.
Hewitt Bostock: Carried.


Arthur Meighen: What is the business for to-morrow?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: There is the
old age pension resolution, and one or two other resolutions that appear on the order paper.


Arthur Meighen: I do not quite understand. The old age pension resolution is quite clear, but what about the other resolutions? Are they those that appear under government notices of motion?


William Lyon Mackenzie King: Yes. There
are two or three of which notice was given to-day.


Arthur Meighen: All right.


James Alexander Robb: What disposition has been
made of my resolution which was moved a few moments ago?


Arthur Meighen: There was no resolution. I submit that the House has been declared adjourned.


Hewitt Bostock: I said " carried ", but the hon. gentleman knows that after that there was an interchange between him and the Prime Minister.


Arthur Meighen: The minister rose about two minutes after the motion for adjournment was carried.


Robert Forke: I would venture at this time to remark that members in this corner of the House can take no part in this argument because we cannot hear a word of it.


Arthur Meighen: Does Your Honour hold that a motion to adjourn has been made but is not yet carried?


Hewitt Bostock: Not yet carried.


Arthur Meighen: The motion is not debatable.


Hewitt Bostock: The hon. gentleman submitted a motion that a moment ago I said could not be put because the order paper was not exhausted. I said a moment ago that this motion could come up to-morrow.


Arthur Meighen: May I submit to you, Sir, just a few simple reasons? When the motion was submitted, I rose to a point of order. I pointed out that it was out of order and could not be proceeded with. I was upheld and consequently there was no motion made.


Hewitt Bostock: The minister proposes it again.


Arthur Meighen: But when? When there is a motion to adjourn before the House. That motion is not debatable and I rise again to a point of order that he cannot now propose it. We must decide the motion to adljourn.


Hewitt Bostock: The point is indeed a very fine one. Before the House adjourns every evening leaders on both sides, after the motion is put, speak on matters quite different from the motion to adljourn, and by the courtesy of the members, and by custom from time immemorial, no one has ever taken any objection to that. There is no question before the Chair at the present moment. The Minister of Finance evidently did not notice that the adjournment of the House had been moved and that I was about to declare the
Supply-Point of Order

motion carried. He then inquired about his motion, and I declared that the motion could not be moved. So this is a tempest in a teapot, if I may say so, with all due deference, and without any vindictive spirit. It is well known that every evening before the House adjourns, when the motion is put and often after it has been declared carried, the leaders in the House put questions to each other as to the business for the next day.
Motion agreed to and the House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.
Friday, March 19, 1926